September 2002 posts

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Werewolf (Spoilers for "Lessons," Buffy Episode 7.1 -- Earl Allison, 08:28:15 09/25/02 Wed

I DID like most of the episode, for what it's worth. Cute Istanbul girl, Kit looks nice (but not really Goth-y), proto-Xander didn't do much.

But, onto the subject;

Was I the only one worried that the writing may have re-written Oz-wolf as a killer?

The girl mauled to death said it was a werewolf! How many werewolves did we hear about in Sunnydale during the high school years? Only two I know of, Oz and his baby cousin, Geordie (sp?). It seems to narrow the playing field rather a lot, doesn't it?

Sure, there was Veruca, but she didn't appear until high school was OVER. Hell, if it HAD been her, given her attitude of letting the wolf run free, she would have announced her presence a while ago (IMHO).

On a side-note, someone brought up a hilarious visual when I posted this at TWoP (Television Without Pity), that of a furry toddler latched onto the girl's ankle, going "Grr Argh!"

Hee.

And would someone help screw my head back on? It ripped off with the whiplash last night that Willow's problems "weren't addiction." Wow, so after expressly saying so (with anvilly metaphor) last season, and beating us over the head with it ALL LAST SEASON, NOW they change their fricking minds?

I want baby-Geordie-wolf to go chew on Joss. A lot. Right now.

Take it and run.

[> Re: Werewolf (Spoilers for "Lessons," Buffy Episode 7.1 -- dochawk, 13:54:55 09/25/02 Wed

We were thinking of the girl who was killed in Beauty and The Beasts. Remember there were three beasts in that episode, feral Angel, the killer and Oz. Also remember when the werewolf hunter came to town there may have been another werewolf. there were killings that werent Oz if I remember correctly.

[> [> In Phases -- Vickie, 14:50:07 09/25/02 Wed

The only killings I could find in the transcript were maulings of animals. I, too, thought there had been human casualties, but that was only Theresa (who was killed by Angel).

[> I don't think Geordie was a baby -- Isabel, 19:59:00 09/25/02 Wed

Oz mentions he's younger and had just got his grown up teeth in. I seem to remember losing my baby teeth at the age of six. I always pictured him about seven or so.

They made a point of having the audience know Oz didn't kill anybody. A different werewolf could have passed through and just killed that girl. It's possible.

[> [> Re: I don't think Geordie was a baby -- newlurker, 08:51:36 09/26/02 Thu

It's also possible that whoever infected Geordie may have been the one to get 'Killed by a werewolf Girl.'

[> Re: Werewolf (Spoilers for "Lessons," Buffy Episode 7.1 -- Miss Edith, 12:35:18 09/26/02 Thu

It's certainly confusing to suddenly say Willow is not addicted. I could buy it if in season 6 Willow was presented as psychologically addicted and wanting to convince herself that it was the magic that was bad. The writers could then have shown Willow facing up to her lust for power at the end of the season and realising that her addiction was just an avoidance tactic. But in Wrecked and Gone Willow was physically addicted. Willow had the shakes, and craved water. In AYW Sam confirms other people have been addicted. Oh well guess Giles will be telling Willow to cancel her membership to Magics Annoynomous or whatever it was called.

[> [> Willow's Magic Addiction -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:08:29 09/26/02 Thu

I believe Giles words were "It's not a hobby or addiction anymore; it's something that's inside of you". Magic was once a hobby for Willow, and it was once an addiction. However, after all the magic sucking of Villains, Two to Go, and Grave, it's gone beyond either of those. It seemed like the more Willow used magic the more it became a part of her. When she gave up magic in Season Six, it was like she felt incomplete and wrong. Over the years magic had become so ingrained into her spirit that not using it was like ripping a part of herself out. Yet, at that point, going "cold turkey" was still an option. It's not anymore. I think, if she tried to give up magic now, it would literally kill her. Her major mojo at the end of the sixth season has made magic a part of her permanently, and she'll just have to learn to live with it instead of against it.

Who was the girl that got knifed by the guys in the robes? -- Wolfhowl3, 08:33:47 09/25/02 Wed

In the chat last night, everyone was talking about the scene at the end, but I think the opening scene was forgotten in the coolness that followed. What happened there?

Wolfie

[> Who was the girl that got knifed by the guys in the robes? (WARNING, SPOILER FOR FUTURE EPISODES!) -- Earl Allison, 08:47:05 09/25/02 Wed

DANGER! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!

DO NOT READ THIS POST IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE SPOILED!

If what I've been reading/hearing is true, she was a Slayer-In-Training, and she may not be the only one we see murdered by the robed ones.

For what it's worth.

Take it and run.

[> [> Re: EA's message? (WARNING, SPOILER FOR FUTURE EPISODES!) -- Dochawk, 09:55:11 09/25/02 Wed

Even more spoilers.

ME is now casting specifically for slayers from the past. This seems to be a major arc for the middle/end of the season

[> Season Speculation -- Darby, 09:30:06 09/25/02 Wed

Okay, ME business - after the end of this season, we may be without SMG, and we might not, for various reasons, want to continue with Eliza Dushku. But we may very well want to continue with most of our core cast.

Problem - the Choosing of Chosen Ones seems essentially random and distributed all around the world - how to logically control, from a plotting standpoint, that process if we need it at season's end but we want it "aimed" at someone in Sunnydale?

Answer - we have mysterious guys in robes systematically kill all of the potential Slayers in the world. Then depending upon future contractual developments, we can either bring our next Slayer (as in, the last one left) to Sunnydale for protection and have her all integrated before the Big Departure or, invoking the weird nature of Dawn as "part" of Buffy, set her up as the only remaining possible recipient of the Calling.

Clues - the opening-sequence girl may not have seemed fully a Slayer, but she dropped quite a distance with less effect than would be expected of a normal girl. Most of us know that Eliza will be back at the end of the season. Are there any other clues?

- Darby, seeing conspiracies everywhere.

[> [> Re: Season Speculation -- cjc36, 10:30:20 09/25/02 Wed

I agree, and posted this theory on my other board. I knew I couldn't be the only person to guess this track!

In my head, it'd go like this:

WORRIED PTB: "All of the potential candidates are dead! The Line of Succession has been destroyed!"

CALM PTB: "No worry. There is another." [Geo Lucas can sue me for that!]

WORRIED PTB: "...Another? How can this be? The Council did as they were told, bringing all potential Slayers to the Academy!"

CALM PTB: "Not all. Some allies in the battle against the Principality Glorficus-- They crafted from the Life Code of the greatest Chosen of all, a girl -- The Key, actually ñ in mortal form."

....Er, something like that. Gads, I need a life.

[> [> [> Sounds suspiciously like -- HonorH, 11:10:30 09/25/02 Wed

"Pretty Maids All in a Row" by Christopher Golden. It's got the plot of Spike and Dru (back in the Day) being hired by a demon to kill off all the Slayers-in-Waiting, then the Slayer herself in order to foul up the line of succession. Would Joss really be doing this?

[> [> good theory.. but here is a twist -- neaux, 11:47:25 09/25/02 Wed

what if this season is soley about Power. Its not about who is the big bad but who has the power. Now this is a stretch, but you could argue that all the big bads died because they Possessed the Power. If you have the power then you gotta die. Those are the rules. it eliminates the issue of right and wrong good and bad and kinda makes sense with the speech at the end of the episode.

So Buffy would be next in line to die because she now Has the Power.

so lets say they kill her.. then they would go after He-Man and Skeletor and the dance group SNAP.

But seriously, its just a theory.

so then (I know you could say, "THE BIG BADS ONLY THOUGHT THEY HAD THE POWER," but like I said its just a working theory)

OoOoOoo... Principal Wood -- sTalking Goat, 08:53:06 09/25/02 Wed

Is it just me or is the new Principal kind of a hotty. I think I have some kind of crush on him...but I'm a guy and straight, the last time I checked. Too bad he's evil or going to end up dead. His office is on top of the Hellmouth for god sakes....

[> Robin Wood -- Arethusa, 09:30:29 09/25/02 Wed

Robin Wood, as others have noticed, is an illustrator who's done work for a book on characters from Anne McCaffrey's Pern series. She's also done mystical-oriented pictures like one of Gaia. She also did a tarot deck. It sound like a good guy name so far.

Also, (again-others said it first) Robin Wood is a film critic, who wrote Sexual Politics and Narrative Film. Interestingly, the two "jacket blurbs" on the web page I checked were from professors at Wesleyan University, where Wedon went. It's a safe bet that he's studied the book.

A quote from the website: "Seeing humanity as a "battleground" of a struggle between forces for Life and those of Death, Wood holds out hope for a joining of the forces of feminism, antiracism, lesbian and gay rights, and environmentalism necessary for authentic movement toward liberation. " Sounds like Whedon inspiration to me.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catalog/data/023107/0231076045.HTM

Don't worry, sTalking goat-I'm sure it's a manly crush. ;)

[> [> Re: Robin Wood -- yabyumpan, 10:39:21 09/25/02 Wed

Can someone point me in the direction of any screen caps of Robin Wood (always on the look out for a hottie! ;-) )

[> [> Re: Robin Wood and Kay and Lonegrin -- alcibiades, 12:48:29 09/25/02 Wed

Robin Wood is also the name for Robin Hood in the Once and Future King. He is one of Arthur's teachers in the Sword
and the Stone -- in one of the Lesson quests that Merlin sends Arthur on.

And another one of Merlin's Lessons to Arthur from the Once and Future King is echoed in Giles' speech to Spike in Xander's dream, when Giles tells Spike, Come on, put your back into it. A watcher scoffs at gravity.

Furthermore, the person that accompanies Arthur on his quest to see Robin Wood is Kay, his foster brother. So, Kay, here female, has an Arthurian reference as well.

Then there is Mr. Lonegrin -- as CJL informed us -- also with a king Arthur connection as the son of Parsifal and one of the Knights of the Holy Grail.

I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Spike Lover, 09:37:36 09/25/02 Wed

Yes, I still love him. I was kind of let down by the whole "Other side of Tuesday, James Marsters hosting" thing, but anyway.

I was very pleasantly surprised. Yes, I thought it was a bit much of Dawn for my taste, but whatever. I was ok w/ the amount of Willow's guilt. Glad to see Giles, but sorry, that did Not look like England to me.

Even ok w/ Buffy getting a job at the school. Sometimes jobs and opportunities come out of nowhere.

Did anyone else notice the "family triangle" set up in the car scene. Dad, Mom, and child. (X, B, & D). Xander really did look the dad. Whatever.

But when she opened that door, and Spike was there, my heart leapt.

I was VERY happy. I am very okay with Spike being completely nuts (and Victorian). I was not looking for that predicament, and it is a good one. Buffy was suspiciously sympathetic. (She will no doubt turn on him later.)

I am ok w/ Spike being the Big Evil (they are talking about)or not. And I am ok w/ Spike doing the next watcher role or not. And I am ok w/ Spike and Buff getting back together (AS LONG AS SHE TREATS HIM DECENTLY!!) I am ok w/ his character becoming every bit as nutty as Dru was.

And that final scene: WOW!!
I interpret it as the vampire demon inside him talking to the human soul. I am going to love this (very real) internal conflict for poor Spike.

Interesting that they used the big bads from past seasons: the notable exception (of course) was ANGELUS. I mean, I loved what the mayor said, but I don't know that Spike actually knew him so that part did not really sit well. ANGELUS would have been the proper choice, but perhaps would have confused viewers of Angel.

Of course, Buffy is (rightly so) among the Big Bads as well. He is again conflicted. "First I'll kill her then I'll save her. First I'll save her then I'll kill her." OMWF But more importantly, it goes back to the idea that a slayer's power is forged in darkness...

Very impressive...

One let down... Anya. I am still hoping for a Giles/Anya pairing, but as he is on another continent, that is looking 'not too good'. But her inability to wreak vengence properly (changing the guy into a french man was funny), is foiling/reflecting Spike's own turmoil.

I am also hoping that Giles is in a lot of episodes this season. But, maybe Anthony has other plans.

[> Re: I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Tamara, 10:15:45 09/25/02 Wed

I didnt think Buffy was that great actually. Yes she was kind to Spike when they were together. But what was with the casual "i'll see you around". When Angel came back in Beauty and the Beast she was all over him like a rash protecting him. Did she even go back to check on poor Spike who was totally crazy and friggen cutting himself! I understand Dawn being her priority but I still think she could have come back to see Spike.

[> [> Re: I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Apophis, 10:43:22 09/25/02 Wed

A) She was responsible for Angel's state (even if she was justified), hence the fawning.
B) Angel was the love of her life (at that point).
C) The last time she saw Spike, he was trying to rape her. Possibly the reason she wasn't overjoyed to see him or too concerned with his state of dishevelment (that and her sister was in mortal danger).

[> [> [> Re: I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Arethusa, 10:51:41 09/25/02 Wed

Oh, the hell with Dawn's iminent death! Spike was suffering! Although Spike really should have known by now that Buffy would treat him like dirt!

[> [> [> [> Re: I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Tamara, 11:05:53 09/25/02 Wed

"I understand Dawn being her priority but I still think she could have gone back to see Spike". What part of that quote did you misread? I said that Buffy should have checked on Spike who was harming himself in a basement and falling apart. I did not say Buffy should have stayed with Spike and forgotten about Dawn. I actually think Buffy protecting Dawn was the right decision, I just didnt like the way she did not bother going back to check on Spike once Dawn was out of danger. Please dont misquote me.

[> [> [> [> [> I apologize. -- Arethusa, 11:15:38 09/25/02 Wed

I did understand that you meant Spike should be Buffy's second priority, after saving Dawn. My wording was unclear, wasn't it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I apologize. -- Tamara, 11:27:11 09/25/02 Wed

"Oh the hell with Dawn's imminent death! Spike was suffering" did implie that I said Spike should be Buffy's priority when I did not. I am not even saying that Buffy should have made Spike a priority. But when she found the state he was in it would have been nice if she would have at least checked on him once Dawn was safe. Simple compassion. Leaving Spike to rot unloved in that basement with noone to keep him company except for the crazy demons in his mind was just harsh. Sorry but that is how I feel.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> When you put it that way... I pretty much want to have sex w/ him already- (i.e. Spike) -- Spike Lover, of course, 11:34:07 09/25/02 Wed

Course, I have stray dog syndrome as it is. (If I see a stray, lost, needy, hungry, hurt, etc, I pretty much want to take it home and love it.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I keep missing the point, don't I! -- Arethusa, becoming ashamed of herself, 11:44:17 09/25/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> How do you know she didn't? -- Veronica, 11:55:21 09/25/02 Wed

We don't see Buffy heading home after accepting the job offer - maybe the first thing she does after the conversation is run back downstairs to check on Spike! The episode *ended* so we don't know what Buffy does next. That's why we'll all tune in next Tuesday. :-)
Don't forget how TV can play with time a bit... I assume Spike's conversation with the Big Bads happened at the same time as other events in other locations, not following. Can you imagine Buffy opening the door to come face-to-face with HERSELF??? Ok, I don't think it will happen, but let's cut a little slack for Buffy to get to Spike _first_thing_ next week.

Cheers,
V

PS: Notice she was too focused on Dawn to notice Spike says there's no one here but the THREE of us. I wonder if she'll remember hearing that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: How do you know she didn't? -- Tamara, 12:03:31 09/25/02 Wed

If Buffy is shown next week having revisited Spike soon after seeing him in the basement I will rethink my opinion of her. I am just saying if she didnt revisit him which is how it looked to me i find that sad. Maybe it would be a good idea for me to wait until the next episode before judging Buffy too badly. I am just saying how i felt when the episode ended and it didnt appear that Buffy had gone back. I guess we shall see next week.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: How do you know she didn't? -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:36:24 09/25/02 Wed

Consider this: when lost in the basement, Buffy and the others had a very difficult time finding their way out. If Buffy went back down into the basement, she might or might not be able to find Spike at all.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: How do you know she didn't? -- meritaten, 22:15:33 09/25/02 Wed

Hey, she's the Slayer and, as far as she knows, the bad ones are gone. She really should check on the poor guy, he was obviously a mess. I don't see the maze as an excuse.

[> [> [> [> LOL!! Arethusa! -- Spike Lover, 11:27:43 09/25/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Tamara, 10:57:56 09/25/02 Wed

Well about point C Spike did try to rape her true. But did Buffy see it like that? Dawn and Xander were both disgusted and hated Spike but Buffy really didnt seem that bothered. I understand an attempted rape is traumatic for regular people to go through but Buffy is a superhero. She has always had rough sex with Spike which involved falling through buildings. Didnt seem to me she took it that seriously as she was willing to get him to babysit Dawn in Villians even after telling him she wanted nothing more to do with him. And she looked sad when she found out Spike had left. Not exactly typical reaction if she was scared to death of her attempted rapist. More like she knew the relationship was messed up and that they both screwed each other up. Not "Spike was evil and horrible Im glad hes gone".
In Lessons Buffy locked herself in the room with Spike and never even refered to the rape. She seemd comfortable enough and I never got the feeling she was still freaked out by the rape and being near Spike.
If Buffy wanted to make moral judgments about anyone how about Angel killing Jenny and torturing her watcher! I dunno it just seemed really harsh to abandon Spike in that basement where he was cracking up and slicing his chest up. She must have known that something was up with him and Spike was there for Buffy in Afterlife when he bandaged her hands and took care to be gentle with her.

[> [> [> [> Buffy loves *DAWN* -- Scroll, 11:08:32 09/25/02 Wed

No matter how kindly or horribly Spike and Buffy have treated each other in the past, the point is that Buffy will always love Dawn the best. Buffy loves Dawn - more than Willow, more than Xander, more than Angel, more than Giles, and certainly more than Spike. If Dawn is in trouble, Buffy isn't really going to think too hard about Spike's crazy behaviour.

[> [> [> [> [> Sorry Tamara... -- Scroll, 11:18:19 09/25/02 Wed

Didn't mean to sound rude, if in fact I did. But I don't see Buffy leaving Spike in that room as a moral judgement. She is merely prioritising. Dawn is more important.

As for who is more evil, Angel or Spike, I think we can safely say that this topic will never ever ever be resolved to anyone's satisfaction. =) Personally, I've never seen Buffy as dismissing Angel's crimes or saying that Spike is more morally culpable than Angel. The simple fact is that Buffy loved Angel and forgave him for his sins. Whether Buffy will ever love Spike is not something I'm going to even bother predicting. From Buffy's non-kicky-punchy greeting to Spike in the basement, I assume she has forgiven Spike, to some degree. Whether she needs to ask Spike for forgiveness is something that, again, I will never ever ever discuss because it is a subject that will never ever ever be agreed upon.

Scroll =)

[> [> [> [> I don't think Buffy knows how to react to Spike right now. -- HonorH, 11:29:52 09/25/02 Wed

He *hurt* her. Whether or not she saw it as an attempted rape, no matter how she saw their relationship, the last time she saw Spike, he *hurt* her badly. Frightened her in a way she'd never been frightened before. Then he went off somewhere and there was no word from him for months. She had no idea where he was or what he was doing. Now, suddenly, he shows up, completely bonkers. What's she supposed to do? If I were Buffy, I'd be incredibly confused. A nutso vampire, especially one who hurt and frightened you that badly, isn't something you want to be around. OTOH, she has to know instinctually that his state has to be connected with her and their relationship. If I were Buffy, I'd want to get some distance and think things through before I approached him again.

That seem like an explanation you can live with, Tamara?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't think Buffy knows how to react to Spike right now. -- Malandanza, 23:55:28 09/25/02 Wed

"A nutso vampire, especially one who hurt and frightened you that badly, isn't something you want to be around."

A nutso vampire who knew all about the ghastly goings on at the new school -- he knew about the talisman. A vampire huddled in the basement of a school. A vampire whose insanity and self-destructive behavior may pose a threat to the children -- yes, the chip. But he once threatened to beat Xander through the pain -- what if in his insane state he is able to kill without being incapacitated? Buffy ought to have gone back -- not to comfort poor, confused Spike, but to find answers.

Personally, I believe that Spike planted the talisman -- but that the First Evil (or whatever evil force is playing with Spike -- maybe the evil earth spirits that Willow mentioned) controlled him. The FE has not been able to do anything physically -- it can only suggest and encourage -- and a crazy vampire is pretty good raw material. If Spike hadn't been crazy before the FE started talking to him, he would be after the constant conversations with the ghosts of departed big bads.

[> [> [> [> Re: I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Tanda, 12:35:32 09/25/02 Wed

/agrees with Tamara

AND ... just before she goes in to Spike's room, she tells the ghouls something like "I'm the one that dates dead guys" ... "and they were hotties."

that is "they" as in Angel AND Spike. Doesn't sound like something someone would say if they were still hurting over a relationship.

Though I do agree with HonorH that Buffy has to be going through some mixed emotions towards Spike right now, and just hasn't had the time to work it all out.

~Tanda

[> [> [> [> Inaccurate statements (general spoilers) -- Robert, 11:59:47 09/26/02 Thu

Tamara, I disagree with some of your statements.

>>> "She has always had rough sex with Spike which involved falling through buildings. "

When you say always, just how many times have we seen Buffy fall through buildings in the process of rought sex with Spike?

>>> "If Buffy wanted to make moral judgments about anyone how about Angel killing Jenny and torturing her watcher!"

Angel never killed Jenny or tortured Buffy's watcher, and if you think so, then you need to re-watch season 2. Angelus killed Jenny and tortured Giles, but Angel is not Angelus. My evidence is;

a. when Angel was restored in "Becoming", he had no memory about what had transpired since "Surprise", and

b. Angel's values, ethic and morals are diametrically opposed to those of Angelus, and

c. Angel has a soul whereas Angelus did not.

>>> "I dunno it just seemed really harsh to abandon Spike in that basement where he was cracking up and slicing his chest up"

First, I consider your position extremely outrageous. Since when is an ex-boyfriend more important than a sister/daughter? Spike definitively proved in "Seeing Red" that he was not worthy of her trust. In the mean time, Dawn and other innocents were in peril and needed Buffy's immediate attention. In addition, how do you know that Buffy didn't return to the basement for Spike afterward? The last scene with Buffy shows her having just escaped the basement with Dawn and friends. What is your direct evidence that she didn't go back afterward?

>>> "She must have known that something was up with him and Spike was there for Buffy in Afterlife when he bandaged her hands and took care to be gentle with her."

Yes, and he we there with her in the her bathroom in "Seeing Red". Which event do you think was more memorable?

>>> "In Lessons Buffy locked herself in the room with Spike and never even refered to the rape."

Which means what? All is forgiven? I don't think so.

>>> "Not exactly typical reaction if she was scared to death of her attempted rapist."

When has Buffy ever been scared to death of Spike? Maybe in "School Hard". That fact that Spike doesn't scare Buffy to death does not mean that she trusts him.

[> [> Dawn always comes first for Buffy -- Scroll, 10:47:39 09/25/02 Wed

It's interesting you brought up Buffy protecting Angel in "Beauty and the Beasts" because I've always thought the way she treated Riley in "Hush" is indicative of her real feelings for him. Buffy fought with Riley against the Gentlemen's stooges, but when she found the opportunity to get to the Big Bads, she left Riley to defend himself and went after the Gentlemen by herself.

In "Lessons", Buffy is kind to Spike, but her first (and really her only priority) is Dawn. Even the ghost/zombies telling Buffy that they were dead because of she failed to protect them doesn't phase Buffy at all - her only concern is protecting Dawn. I like Spike, I honestly do, but I think Buffy made the right decision to deal with the crisis at hand and leave the crazy but chipped vampire for when things are calmer.

[> [> [> Not much guilt there for Buffy -- Spike Lover, 11:39:27 09/25/02 Wed

I noticed too that she did not feel guilty that she could not save them. Very interesting.

[> [> [> [> Well, why should she? -- HonorH, 11:45:29 09/25/02 Wed

She busted her tailbone for three years trying to keep people alive at that school, and for the most part, she succeeded. Her graduating class had the lowest mortality rate in SHS history. She couldn't save everyone, but it's not like she caused their deaths. Looks to me like she's got a fairly healthy perspective on it.

[> [> [> [> Actually, this might be fairly healthy -- Scroll, 11:48:49 09/25/02 Wed

Someone, possibly shadowkat, said that Buffy is often defined by her past, by the people she failed to save. Part of what made her leap of the tower in "The Gift" so powerful was that she was too burdened down by all the deaths, the losses, in her life. She couldn't save her mom, she couldn't keep Angel or Riley with her, her dad had left... Buffy has always felt guilty whenever she failed to save someone, but this attitude can be dangerous and unhealthy.

In "Lessons", instead of wallowing in the past, in the mistakes she made that cost these innocent people their lives, Buffy focussed on the living. On protecting Dawn, Kit, and Carlos. On the innocent that could still be saved. So in a way, I don't mind that Buffy didn't seem guilty when faced with these dead people. After spending last year all depressed because of her past (losing heaven) and her present (crappy life), Buffy is looking forward to the future (Dawn, their life together). Go happy Buffy!

[> [> [> [> [> I agree it may be healthy... I just find it interesting -- Spike Lover, 12:05:38 09/25/02 Wed

Seen Schindler's List? There is that really phenomenal part near the end when they present him a ring of thanks. He breaks down and cries because he failed to save more.

You could say it was for dramatic effect, but I think it is very human. Do you have a half empty glass of water or half full?

I just thought it was interesting, because it goes back to the power comment. Putting aside the 'looking on the bright side' and the healthiness of it, it would be an interesting writing point for the character that (And I say this as an interesting writing point, not that the character actually feels or thinks this way!!) Buffy does not feel guilt over the victims she could not save because she does not care about the individual guy. Her only concern is selfish-- she cares about saving those she loves. If others are saved, that is incidental good.

Another example of this would be when she runs into the classroom and tells DAwn they have to go because it is not safe. She does not go in there and demand that the school be evacuated because she does not care what happens to the other students, only Dawn. This is VERY human. And it would be an interesting writing point to build on-- if the writers wanted to pursue it. I am not saying that they will or should. It is simply an interesting opportunity.

--Feeling defensive now---

(Faith actually might have a whole lot of this characteristic. She is there to fight; saving people is an incidental perk.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> No need to feel defensive : ) -- Scroll, 12:28:31 09/25/02 Wed

Yeah, I understand what you mean. It would be an interesting character trait if the writers made Buffy focus only on protecting Dawn because Dawn is the only one Buffy cares about. However, I'll admit that I doubt Joss will ever take this possibility to the extreme (since he kinda already did with "The Gift").

It's a complex human instinct - protecting family above strangers - and I'm not sure we can ever say which instinct is better: loving everyone and therefore feeling guilty that you can't save everyone, or loving a select few and possibly neglecting strangers and acquaintances. I think Buffy has run the gamut from one end of this spectrum to another. Personally, I like her attitude in the basement. Doesn't mean she'll always stick to it, however. I never know what Buffy will do next - part of the fun of watching =)

[> [> Yea, I know what you mean -- Spike Lover, 11:17:41 09/25/02 Wed

I would have wanted to scoop him up and take him home and nurse him back to health. As usual, Buffy and I are different. She, true to character, did not tell anyone he was back.

Perhaps it is unfair to compare her response to Angel's return. After all, Angel was the love of her life. Spike was a convenient lay. If nothing else, I was pleased that she admitted to the ghouls that she had slept w/ the dead, "but THEY were hotties." So, she is not totally ashamed of Spike.

I have to admit that she was trying to save Dawn at the time, but you have to wonder if she even gave him a second thought after the crisis. Perhaps she did not feel he actually needed help. Spike has always been pretty independent, and beside being completely nuts and tormented, the ghouls were not after him. Interesting that once she realized that Spike was incapable of helping her save Dawn, she left him pretty quick.

But then, perhaps the intention of Joss or the writer of this ep is to tease his audience-.

[> Me too -- CaptainPugwash, 10:45:03 09/25/02 Wed

I feel the same way, I guess...

For the first time ever, Dawn started to really annoy me; I am beginning to sympathise with those who resent her status as a 'major' character.

Spike was great, but Spike is always great (blame JM) - I'm glad Angel wasn't there because I have very little interest in that character now (possibly because DB isn't in JMs acting league).

[> Re: I was PLEASANTLY surprised (spoilers) -- Robert, 10:51:49 09/25/02 Wed

>>> "... but sorry, that did Not look like England to me."

I believe that these scenes where filmed in England. So, what does England look like?

>>> "Of course, Buffy is (rightly so) among the Big Bads as well."

Can you please explain this? In which season was Buffy the "Big Bad"?

>>> "She will no doubt turn on him later."

True! On the other hand, I thought she should have staked him over two seasons ago.

[> [> See previous posts in this thread for Buffy's Badness- some specifically relating to Spike -- Spike Lover, 11:44:05 09/25/02 Wed

[> [> [> Doesn't address my questions -- Robert, 12:39:21 09/26/02 Thu

You stated;

>>> "Of course, Buffy is (rightly so) among the Big Bads as well."

I read all the postings above in this discussion thread, and the badness exhibited by Buffy in these postings appears to distill down to the following.

1. Buffy didn't show guilt for the creatures harassing her.

2. Buffy didn't rescue Spike instead of Dawn.

3. Buffy didn't return to Spike after having gotten the innocents out of the basement.

Where there any other points which I missed? If not, then this is a really weak justification for declaring Buffy a "Big Bad". Does this compare with the Master, Angelus, the Mayor, Adam, Gorificus, or dark Willow?

Besides, I refute all three points.

1. When Buffy stated that she didn't care how they died, she had no way of knowing that the creatures where really the people who had died, or merely apparitions conjured up by some unnamed evil power. In addition, they were preventing Buffy from saving the living.

2. It is insupportable to condemn Buffy for protecting her sister (for whom she has guardianship) over her ex-boyfriend. How would that play in a courtroom?

3. We do not yet know whether Buffy returned to the basement after rescuing the innocents. The last scene we see with Buffy showed her having just rescued the innocents from the basement.

[> [> [> [> Re: Doesn't address my questions -- Miss Edith, 13:07:01 09/26/02 Thu

I don't think anyone was arguing Buffy should have saved Dawn instead of Spike. The main argument seems to be that Buffy should have returned to check on Spike once Dawn and other innocents were out of danger. But like you said we have no idea when Buffy will revisist Spike and she could well drop by to see him the day following all the trauma of Dawn's first day of high school. Buffy certainly showed compassion above and beyond the cause of duty considering everything that had happened in the recent past with Spike. Some people seem a little to willing to critisise Buffy just because she doesn't act like a saint.
In a way I do agree that Buffy shouldn't be expected to break down crying and be totally unable to function when being confronted with the people she failed to save. But from what I've read in the wildfeed Buffy did seem a little too flip, and hardly flinched when confronted with the zombies which does surprise me. I could be wrong of course as it's hard to get a feel of an episode from the wildfeed alone.
Buffy has always been hit hard by the loss of innocents in the past though. One of my favourite Buffy moments is in Phases when Buffy is told the deaths caused by the warewolf will "be on your pretty little head" and Buffy replies "I live with that every day". Really sums up the character for me. Buffy's conscience has often troubled her when people died because she wasn't there to stop the evil. Therefore Buffy not caring about the zombies at all may indicate something about future storylines? It's interesting at least as it may imply a change in the Buffy character approaching. More of a carpe diem attitude and less moping?
Otherwise I agree that there is little to indicate that Buffy is going to be a big bad.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Doesn't address my questions -- Robert, 13:46:28 09/26/02 Thu

>>> "... read in the wildfeed Buffy did seem a little too flip"

Yes, and I believe such a judgement is overly critical and premature. Buffy stated that she didn't care how they died, but she was in the same room with these unknown creatures and no one else. Therefore, what she said was for the creatures ears only. The creatures claimed to be the dead innocents that Buffy was unable to save, but they may be just apparitions from an unknown evil attempting to disarm Buffy emotionally. In the mean time, the creatures are actively putting Dawn and her friends at risk of injury or death, and are blocking Buffy's attempt to save them. Therefore, in my book, anything Buffy says to get them out of her way is fair game, and I don't see it as evidence that Buffy is callous and uncaring. After the innocents have been saved and protected, then she can grieve for the lost.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Doesn't address my questions -- Miss Edith, 14:51:33 09/26/02 Thu

Sorry that should have said "I don't think anyone was arguing Buffy should have saved Spike instead of Dawn".
What I meant was there does seem to be an idea that Buffy looking out for Dawn and Spike is an either/or option and she cannot protect them both and people are saying she should have forgotten Dawn, putting Spike first. I think people saying Buffy was callous simply mean they are unhappy that there is no onscreen evidence that Buffy revisited Spike. I think people need to wait for the next episode to air before starting to make judgements about how she deals with Spike. Presumedly that will happen next episode, so withholding our judgement until then does seem to be the wise thing to do.
And sorry if it came across that I felt Buffy was callous and uncaring towards the zombies as that's isn't true. I just noticed that in the past Buffy has always been very concerned with protecting everyone and she will privetely beat herself up about the people she was unable to save. I was wondering if Buffy not showing much concern for the dead victims she was confronted with may indicate something about how Buffy will handle herself this season. It was not meant to be a critical judgement of the character Buffy whom I have always had a great deal of respect for.

[> [> The Spikian perspective -- Slain, 18:28:11 09/25/02 Wed

It looked like England to me, and I've lived here all my life, a few years of it not too many miles from where those scenes were set! Maybe the horse was a big OTT, but remember these are the Children of Gia he's living with. I'm guessing they're not to hot on polluting cars.

Buffy's badness is subjective - I happen to believe she's as pure good as it's possible for a human being to be. While I think most people would disagree that Buffy is a Big Bad, from a vampire's perspective Buffy is certainly a Big Bad. Though perhaps 'Big Good' would be more appropriate. Plenty of people watch the show from a Spikian perspective, and from that point of view, Buffy isn't the obvious fighter of good that I see her as. Spike doesn't have the same definitions of Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, and Spike fans often follow his morality, rather than the show as a whole's.

Or, in other words, one man's big bad is another man's saviour.

[> Anthony's Contract.. (# of episodes) -- neaux, 11:32:58 09/25/02 Wed

This could be a spoiler.. I'm not sure.

But I read on EW or Scifi that ASH has signed on for 10 episodes.. but I dont know if that was 10 total or 10+ or which ones.. it was a very generic article

[> I totally agree with HonorH here...(spoilers 7.1/2) -- cjl, 11:43:09 09/25/02 Wed

You gotta give our resident Slayer a little slack here, SpikeLover. Her SISTER and two other helpless kids are in danger from hostile manifest spirits/zombies, and right in the middle of the chase, she bumps into Spike. Bonkers, self-mutilating Spike, muttering to himself in an utterly nonsensical, SCARY fashion. She was freaked, maybe felt a little guilty, but she had no time to sit down with Spike and find out what was wrong.

Dawn is safe. Buffy will settle down in her new job. And I'll bet you, Buffy will be back down in the basement in no time.

[> [> Now Wait!! What did I say? Slack about what? -- Spike Lover, 11:53:30 09/25/02 Wed

Have I said anything about Buffy? Or instead of referring to me specifically, (Spike Lover), you are referring to some of the posters of this thread who may be 'lovers of the character Spike'.

I do not know that I PERSONALLY have thrown a stone (yet). (Wait for later in the season for that.)

[> [> Re: I totally agree with HonorH here...(spoilers 7.1/2) -- Tamara, 11:57:35 09/25/02 Wed

Has anyone said Buffy should have sat down with Spike and started counceling him? Of course she couldnt have stopped to chat at the time.
If Buffy does revisit Spike in the basement soon then that would be cool and I might rethink my opinion of her. I just found it cold the way that she did not revisit Spike. If she does go back to see him but leaves it a week or so before popping by I will still think Buffy was being a bit lacking in compassion.

[> [> [> Buffy's no saint. -- HonorH, 12:09:50 09/25/02 Wed

And frankly, after everything that went on between them, I don't blame her in the least for not wanting to be alone with him right now--especially when he isn't in his right mind. Give the girl some time to sort out her own feelings and work up some courage before expecting her to do some one-on-one with him. She's only human.

[> [> [> [> My take on all this for what it's worth(Spoilers for 7.1) -- shadowkat, 12:54:52 09/25/02 Wed

Here's how I read what was going on:

Buffy against her better judgment sending Dawn to her old high school. She had researched other options. Buffy getting the wiggins out of exploring the school and seeing dead people accusing her of stuff in the bathroom. She is so wigged out she goes and interrupts Dawn's class.

The principal catches her wandering about and makes her nervous about her past history. He also calls her on her strangness. While chatting and trying to explain herself - her cell phone buzzes - which he scolds her from bringing into the building. She ignores him. Finds out, surprise, surprise, kid sis and two other kids are in jeopardy.
Buffy has major wiggins now.

So in the space of two hours:
1. Buffy wigs on being called Mom by the principal
2. Buffy wigs on her sister being in her old school to extent she gives her a phone to call her in case of emergencies
3. Buffy wigs on seeing dead people
4. Buffy embarrasses kid sis
5. Buffy discovers kid sis in deadly danger

Now buffy is creeping around scarey basement and is confronted with corspes who can fight and disappear. She can't find her sister who is in the same maze and also fighting said corpses. The corspes threaten to kill Buffy's
sister and she can't injure them. Fighting them is reminiscent of fighting the Chumas vengeance demons in Pangs actually. But she doesn't connect - don't blame her. Very wigged out.

She does however connect that these demons are blocking a doorway so she assumes kid sis is behind it. After three tries, she manages to get it open and who should appear?
Spike. And not the Spike she last saw in the Bathroom.

He looks very changed and much like an apparition himself.
And he isn't saying a word. For a minute she's not even sure the guy is real. She asks. He laughs somewhat manically. Then he tells her to duck but doesn't try to help, retreating. She goes in with him to get away from the demons. Still incredibly worried about Dawn.

Okay now put yourself in her position - your daughter, your kid sister, someone who is the most important responsibility to you is in mortal danger. You just come face to face with what appears to be your ex-lover, who when last you met? He attacked you. You haven't seen him in four months (or three), you assumed he left permanently,
and here he is in the last place on earth you expected to run into him and looking like he escaped from Bellview.
Buffy reacts exactly the way I would have...or think i would have because let's face it I've never been in this situation and (seriously doubt I ever will be but whatever)
unless I am - I have no idea what I'd do.

She is actually incredibly compassionate. And he does distract her from Dawn. To the extent that she is able to see his wounds. He tells her to leave, twice. "Terribly busy, no visitors" and "Cheers for stopping by" - "This my home now". She asks if he will help. He makes it clear he can't or won't. He doesn't really appear to know if she's really there. Makes sense considering the shapeshifting spirit sharing his home is shapeshifting into Buffy intermittently. (Looks like cjl got his psychological
torture for Spike - told you to be patient...;-) )

She has no time to deal with him then. Nor does she have time to go back right away. The Basement is off limits.
When she resurfaces - she has the kids and has just reassurred them. The principal grabs her again and offers her a job (what was she supposed to do? say excuse me, my crazy ex is in your basement??). That's the last we see of Buffy. Also the Basement is a maze - take a while to find again. And...well if I was Buffy I would not be overly eager to go down into the creepy basement, find the boiler room to see a vampire who is acting crazy, who had attacked me the last time we met and can hurt me. I'd work myself up to it.

What hit me as interesting?
Her sympathy for him - clearly shown in how she almost touched his cheek and pushed aside his shirt and asked in horror what did you do? She probably thinks he tried to claw out his own heart because of her. To remove the pain of loving her. It's what he discussed last time she saw him. Frightening thought.

She also says - "I'll get back to you.." promising him she'll come back later. Can't now.

Also and this interested me - Buffy avoids telling Dawn or Xander that Spike is back or down there or told her about the tailsman.

Finally the delusions aren't delusions. I'll bet you money
that the shapeshifter appears to other people and again.
It's not from inside Spike. It's coming from the hellmouth.
And it's trying to work it's will on him as it will no doubt try to work it's will on everyone else...the vengeance spirits appeared to be protecting it and working for it and who btw raised them? My guess the big bad. All we see is the tailsman not who caused it.

Be patient. It's too soon to tell on Spike. Buffy. Or anything else.

But those scenes with Spike are too ambiguous to be read one way...lots of interesting possibilities present themselves.

Just my ten cents for what it's worth.
SK

[> [> [> [> [> As usual, s'kat . . . -- HonorH, 13:20:14 09/25/02 Wed

. . . you've got a heck of a brain on ya. Compassion is called for on both sides. We have an idea of what Spike's going through, and why he's going through it. I feel bad for him, I really do. I can't imagine the torment he's in. But Buffy's also got a lot to work through before she can even be around him. She doesn't feel safe with him, and for good reason. It'll just take some time is all.

[> [> [> [> [> Excellent points all, sk! Hope your work day has improved -- ponygirl, 14:36:34 09/25/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: My take on all this for what it's worth(Spoilers for 7.1) -- Sarand, 15:03:00 09/25/02 Wed

I also agree that Buffy was incredibly compassionate in how she dealt with Spike, under the circumstances both past and present.

I also thought they were not Spike's delusions but manifestations of the First Evil. (Only reason it didn't morph into Angelus was because of the damn no crossovers rule.) I thought the evil must have drawn Spike somehow to the basement (and the Hellmouth) because I couldn't see how he ended up there otherwise. I don't recall him having any real connection to the school or the Hellmouth and I don't recall opening the Hellmouth as figuring into any of his schemes. The school was gone by the time he came back to Sunnydale permanently. So I didn't think that he wandered in there of his own accord in his delusions. He was brought there.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My take on all this for what it's worth(Spoilers for 7.1) -- Malandanza, 00:03:25 09/26/02 Thu

Last we saw Spike, he was with a scary Cave Demon -- this episode, we heard Willow talking about how everything is connected. And how part of the Earth is evil, hungry and ready to rise in Sunnydale. We also saw her drag a flower from South America to England through the interconnected Earth. If the force that is in SHS is the same evil Earth force (and First Evil would fit since it would have been before people or demons came to Earth) why couldn't they drag Spike through the Earth from Africa to Sunnydale?

I'm also looking forward to seeing if there's a big dead circle of plants somewhere on campus (as there was with the Christmas trees in Amends) -- or maybe the Principal will have trouble keeping ferns alive (if Spike is directly below his office).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Interesting theory -- shadowkat, 08:20:44 09/26/02 Thu

It would make sense in a way...having him dragged through the earth back to Sunnydale and in the Basement. Also makes his statement: "This is my home. I've always been here.."
make a bit more sense.

Someone above mentioned the possibility that the first evil pulled Angel out of hell and this entity (not sure first evil is a good term) may have done the same with Spike - given him what he wanted the soul.

Now here's why I think that would be a cool and very interesting possibility - it fits a theme I see going on this year of "soul-searching", "connectedness" and "who we are". Up until now, if our understanding of the whole soul concept is correct, soulless beings like Spike have no choice but to be evil - to be warriors or minions for darkness. Makes them sort of boring tools for evil. Because the source of all evil, or the devil or whatever you want to call it - prefers if someone chooses of own free will to do darkness. Just as PTB or good or god prefers if we choose out of our own free will to do good. The choice itself contains quite a bit of powerful mojo. So if the evil entity manages to seduce a souled vampire into being evil, that is a far more powerful weapon than a soulless one. Because the evil entity gets the soul in the bargain.
The soul - which is usually directed to do good. I think
this entity is going to try and seduce each of the characters, use their weaknesses and vulnerabilites against them and pull them into its web. The center of the web being the hellmouth. It knows what these characters are most afraid of, it knows what their weaknesses are, it has been studying them for a very long time. Now that it finally has everyone where it wants them - it is going to act and have a blast at the same time.

What does it have?
1. It seduced Willow into tapping and sucking some of its power.
2. It seduced Anya into going back to being a demon

What is it working on? Speculation:
1. Seducing Xander with money and success - rebuilding school on hellmouth and making money off damages.
2. Seducing Buffy with her power as slayer
3. Playing on Spike's fears and weaknesses and guilt, seducing him into taking the easier path or what appears to be less painful one
4. Seducing Dawn with her sisters abilities, etc.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wolfram & Hart seducing Angel (spoilers for Lessons) -- Scroll, 08:37:50 09/26/02 Thu

Because the source of all evil, or the devil or whatever you want to call it - prefers if someone chooses of own free will to do darkness. Just as PTB or good or god prefers if we choose out of our own free will to do good. The choice itself contains quite a bit of powerful mojo. So if the evil entity manages to seduce a souled vampire into being evil, that is a far more powerful weapon than a soulless one. Because the evil entity gets the soul in the bargain.

Exactly. This is the goal of Wolfram & Hart on Angel, to seduce and manipulate Angel into voluntarily committing evil acts with his soul. The bad guys don't want to strip Angel's soul from him the way the Mayor wanted to; Wolfram & Hart want to corrupt his soul.

Now that there are two souled vampires in the Buffyverse, I have to wonder how Angel and Spike will resist the temptation to do evil now that they actually have the ability to do good.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wolfram & Hart seducing Angel (spoilers for Lessons) -- shadowkat, 09:25:33 09/26/02 Thu

Was thinking about this some more and remembered my main problem with Amends. Angel didn't defeat the First Evil's
control - he did what it wanted - went for the coward's way out - to just end it all. Buffy tried to stop him - actually it was Buffy who got Angel back on road to good, he didn't do it alone. So I felt a big let down. Now on Ats I think we finally are getting an opportunity to see Angel make choices on his own. And not have Buffy helping.
Angel had to leave Buffy to do it though because otherwise he'd always use her as a crutch and since she wasn't able to see past her romantic feelings for him - she let him.
We see him realize this a bit in Graduation Day Part I & II, Prom, I Will Remember You, and Sanctuary. In fact by Sanctuary Angel actually is making better decisions than Buffy in regards to Faith. I began to actually like Angel more when he went into his own show due to this. And I for one can't wait to see how he handles the temptations W&H offer. Every day Angel has to resist the temptation that would cause him to lose his soul or better yet the one that would cause him to not care and be nasty with the soul and the second is the one W&H is more interested in.

I think W&H plans on using Wes and possibly Connor to do this. But we'll see.

Spike's journey fascinates me even more. (Each year, Joss gives me a little more information on how HE sees this character and IMHO it's what Joss thinks the character is that's the most fascinating. Still haven't figured that out yet - hope to this year.) What fascinates me about Spike - is no one is helping him. Angel had Buffy's love. Spike doesn't have Buffy's love or for that matter really much hope of having her love. Angel had the help of SG because of Buffy. Spike has the SG's disdain. Angel had Giles' tolerance and at times compassion even after Angel killed Jenny, Giles oddly enough gave him a break. Spike has Giles annoyance and disdain. Spike has literally no one. Now I know Angel wandered with a soul without anyone for 90 years, but we weren't privy to most of that so it's hard for me to really well care much. I'm interested in what they show me. And I think they are showing a journey of a man dealing with his inner demons - the big bad seems very adept at seeing those demons. And in Lessons - several of Spike's inner demons are laid bare:

1. Fear of being a failure, we all have this fear. We see it in Spike when he talks about how much he is trying to learn, that he's slow and he's sorry and he know's he'll be punished.(Echoes of past abuse here - caning.) So he's afraid of being considered stupid. Interesting...reminds me of Willow who had to excel, and Xander who made smart alec remarks to cover himself and Buffy who worried about being considered too slow in school. It also makes sense - since he has flinched in other episodes when people have made remarks regarding his smarts - he is furious when Buffy calls him incompetent in AYW (geeze she couldn't have found a better insult if she wanted to), he lashes out in fury with Angel when he calls him a bad planner and not very bright in the Dark (almost foiling his own plan, but than Angel knows Spike's achilees heel better than anyone outside of maybe Dru.) This is further reinforced by the somewhat snarky and defensive line "any 4 year old could figure it". (I may be stupid, but I'm smarter than you!)
2. Fear of rejection of not measuring up. When he mentions he had a speech all learned to tell Buffy but she'll never understand. The Big Bad or evil entity leaps on that one
like a dog on a bone. Picking it apart. Of course she'll reject you - it tells Spike, she'll never get you. You're a schmuck, beneath her.
3. Fear of being a schmuck of being pathetic of failing.

Then of course we have those desires - the deep ones that you are afraid to even admit to yourself and these are the most dangerous.

Spike's achillees heel is his need to be loved. And his need to love. It gets him into trouble. But he's not really sure what it means. He wants to be accepted. To be part of the group. To not be lonely. To connect. But he can't admit this to himself...because it is sooo much more painful when he realizes he'll never have it.

Then of course we have guilt which is a mighty hefty weapon. It can be used to prove to Spike that he doesn't deserve love, that he deserves to be lonely. To be alone
and apart forever...and should just go back to being evil, because there is no point. He'll never ever be able to get of the dark. (Which is what W&H tried to do to Angel in Reprise - when the elevator to hell opened up into Angel's own world.)

Nice juicy things for a big bad entity to play with. Scarey. Wouldn't want that thing seeing into my head - or playing with it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> To make Amends -- ponygirl, 12:26:53 09/26/02 Thu

Like all your other points s'kat, but I feel an urge to come out and defend Amends, not the most popular episode but one which I'd put in my top 10 of personal faves. The big deus ex snowstorm at the end may seem like a cop out, but it felt necessary to have something to balance out the idea of a First Evil. The Buffyverse may be big on evil, but the forces on the other side seem a bit sparse. There's Buffy and not much else. Sure we see Whistler, but his ultimate message is that we're all alone. Angel is asking the big questions, why is he here? why should he stay? He has someone who loves him, but it isn't enough, he needs to believe that there is a larger purpose to his life, that the world itself cares whether he lives or dies. It's not something any of will likely ever see, but it's something we all need to believe.

The thing with those big convenient miracles is that you can't use them very often (my main beef with Cordie's demonic powers, they kept appearing at just the right moment), but seeing that just once out of 6 and counting years of struggle that the universe isn't a hostile or indifferent place? Well, it chokes me up every time, but then I'm always a sucker for a good Chanukah miracle.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yay, ponygirl! -- Scroll, 13:42:28 09/26/02 Thu

You've just beautifully articulated why I love "Amends" so much. I don't even consider the snow a deus ex machina (even though it is) because it was a deus ex machina done well. There's plenty of times when we get the angst and darkness and brutality of life. That's called "The Wish", "The Body", and pretty much all of Season 6. "Amends" also had angst and torture and darkness. It also had love and promise and forgiveness. The snowfall was poetic and comforting and larger than life. It was about hope and being part of a bigger picture and not being alone in the world. And yeah, I'm sounding more and more like a doof, but anyway...

Scroll (a sucker for miracles of any sort)

[> OT, but actually... -- Juliette, 14:02:14 09/25/02 Wed

Giles's scenes were filmed over here in Bath, in England, where ASH lives

[> [> Sorry, the barbed wire fence threw me off -- Spike Lover, 09:45:39 09/26/02 Thu

Mole people predictions (spoilers for Lessons and far fetched speculation) -- matching mole, 13:15:49 09/25/02 Wed

The mole people as big bad prediction is looking pretty good (see predictions thread of last week). A large part of this episode was spent underground. The vampire got his foot caught on a tree root, or so he thought. It was mole people I tell you - mole people. And then all this stuff about the earth and everything being connected through the earth and the earth having teeth. Sounds like mole people to me!

And fresne's hair coloring predictions look like they could materialize as well. Spike changed his hair style - he's in the mood - bright colors could be just an episode or two away.

Necromancers in leather pants, they're just around the corner.

In a somewhat more serious vein I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed last night's episode. And the comments about power caused me to realize a trend in BtVS. Buffy's powers as a slayer have become less and less important to defeating big bads as time goes on. The Master was defeated by Buffy in single combat. Buffy defeats Angelus in single combat with an intial assist from Spike (Willow's ensoulment spell, although increasing the drama didn't really affect the outcome). The defeats of the Mayor and Adam were team projects with Buffy's fighting skills playing an important role but certainly not the only one. The crucial act of the Gift was Buffy's self sacrifice not the destruction of Glory (in which Willow and Giles had equally important roles). And Xander, rather than Buffy, triumphs over Willow at the end of last season.

This first episode stands in marked contrast to almost every other season opener in a crucial respect. She does not struggle with a crisis in identity which she overcomes by re-identifying herself as Buffy the Vampire Slayer (her reluctance to resume the role in WttH, her fear of dying and the Master in the second season opener, her attempt to flee her past in Anne, her insecurities as a college student in the Freshman, her attraction to Dracula, and her pain and terror at being yanked out of heaven). In every case her internal struggle is punctuated with violence.

In seasons five and six, it seemed that the struggle of the first episode was basically continued through the entire season. Buffy turns her back on Dracula but hasn't defeated or accepted the wildness and darkness that he say's lies within her. Buffy pretends that she's back like she was before but she's really not.

In Lessons there is no physical conflict worth mentioning. Buffy scuffles with some zombie/ghosts but she never seems challenged in the same way she was before. Her physical powers seem of limited usefulness. Power is the ability to accomplish things. Buffy's lesson to Dawn at the beginning is that there is more than one way to accomplish something. Giles lesson to Willow is that you need to know what your goal is.

[> Re: Mole people predictions (spoilers for Lessons and far fetched speculation) -- luvthistle1, 14:34:59 09/25/02 Wed

I agree. Giles statement to willow was right on the mark. but he said "we are who we are". so, who is spike? william seems to have the control.so "who are they?

Spike changed his hair style. Buffy appeard to have change her hair style as well. last year she cut it short.

A whole bunch of new questions, and a few old ones -- J, 13:27:54 09/25/02 Wed

Between 'Lessons' and the flurry of posts, I've got questions and theories popping out all over the place. I'm going to keep the theories to myself for the moment, but the questions are here for the taking:

1) So what happened to the cave demon?

2) Has Buffy forgotten that Dawn's the KEY?

3) Principals have earrings now?

4) Who is responsible for the talisman?

5) Does anybody remember any of those three manifest spirits getting killed? When did that happen?

6) Did Alyson Hannigan have fun on her European vacation at the stately Head manor?

[> How about that other important question, especially for Wisewoman? -- CW, 13:57:02 09/25/02 Wed

Is Clem still in Rack's waiting room expecting Dawn to come out?

[> [> HA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! ;o) -- dub, 18:13:41 09/25/02 Wed

[> Serious (& not-so-serious) answers -- HonorH, 14:02:31 09/25/02 Wed

1) So what happened to the cave demon?

It might have just been a Plot Device, but then again, we could be seeing it again.

2) Has Buffy forgotten that Dawn's the KEY?

After Willow's reminder last year? I think not. That might also be one reason why Buffy's so jumpy about Dawn being so close to the Hellmouth (aside from general death, destruction, and dismemberment).

3) Principals have earrings now?

Personally, I think they were desperate for anyone to take the job, considering the life expectancy of SHS principals.

4) Who is responsible for the talisman?

Never answered. Lots of suspects. The manifest spirits seemed to want Buffy out of there, and the Big Bad Whatever seems to want Buffy there. Thus, I don't think the BBW is responsible for it. The principal also asked Buffy to stay, so I don't think he's responsible for it. So who wants to chase Buffy off?

5) Does anybody remember any of those three manifest spirits getting killed? When did that happen?

Don't remember them specifically. Just general redshirts who didn't survive graduation.

6) Did Alyson Hannigan have fun on her European vacation at the stately Head manor?

Who wouldn't? Especially with the thoroughly yummy ASH there for company? And horsies!

[> [> AD says it rained the whole time -- Scroll, 14:28:36 09/25/02 Wed

I read a few interviews with Alexis Denisof (Alyson's SO) and he said it pretty much rained the entire time they were in England. Joss ended up filming a lot of the Giles & Willow scenes in ASH's garden. It's too bad. I was hoping for more scenes of Bath itself.

[> Re: A whole bunch of new questions, and a few old ones -- Dochawk, 14:29:39 09/25/02 Wed

lets see 4 days in England with Joss, ASH and her honey Alexis. I think she had a horrible time. And they filmed what about 2 minutes of screen time (and why did they have to film that in England, there are plenty of horse country areas in LA). Hopefully we'll see more Willow in England next week (maybe a member of the coven?)

[> [> Re: A whole bunch of new questions, and a few old ones -- BunnyK., 15:54:09 09/25/02 Wed

They probably filmed it in England so that ASH wouldn't have to fly to LA.

[> Re: A whole bunch of new questions, and a few old ones -- Tanda, 16:00:19 09/25/02 Wed

Wheee .. wandering thoughts...

4) Who is responsible for the talisman?

That REALLY is the question of this episode. After the ghouls are banished, Dawn asks "why" and Buffy retorts something like, 'the question is, who would put a talisman there.'

There's two possible reasons I see that the talisman is there: 1. to get Buffy to stay at the school (she'll see the danger and stay because Dawn needs defending) or 2. to get Buffy to find Spike (where things get murkier...)

I have been thinking about this ... and I've come up wtih the principal.

So, let's go back to the beginning ... er, well, you kno what I mean. Xander shows buffy the map and that the principals office is over top the hellmouth. Dawn: so the principal is evil?

The question doesn't get answered, they go on to other principal comments.

At the school, the principal is takes his leave of Buffy saying something like "I've got to go back to work deadening young minds."

Possibility 1: Principal is manipulating Buffy to stay at the school

He wants Buffy there. If the principal is a good guy, and he knows his school history, he wants Buffy there for defenses. If the principal is a nuetral guy, he wants Buffy there so he can keep an eye on her. If the principal is a bad guy, he may be an instrument of the big bad and has left the talisman just to get her where big bad wants her to be.

The principal has done his homework, he knows the history of the school, of Buffy, and ... of the new kids. He has easy access to all areas of the school, and he knows Buffy and the new kids' movements. He pops up -everywhere- Buffy goes in the school that is not underground. The talisman was tuned to Buffy ... it was when she picked it up that the ghouls popped in. He wants her to be haunted by the past so she'll stay? (okay, I admit, that's reaching...she'd stay anyway.)

Possibility 2: Buffy is being brought to Spike.

Those ghouls? Hardly a threat ... and they didn't seem all that thrilled with the idea of actually attacking Buffy. They seemed purposefully "flat" characters. They were there to lead Buffy down to Spike. Keep her from that door? They LEAD her to that door. Also, there .. that place ... since it is all connected, is Spike still in Africa? Or is he neither here nor there?

Possible Big bad in the room with Spike is so non-physical though, I can't put it together with a physical talisman. Either someone totally different is responsible for it (a good-guy principal) or his henchman is responsible for it (a bad-guy principal).

I like Mr. Wood. I'm voting good-guy principal ;)

... wandering off again ...

Lessons: the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers, duh!) -- Honorificus (The Fabulous-Beyond-Fabulous One), 15:58:43 09/25/02 Wed

So. First episode of the new season. What does Joss mean by blah, blah, blah? Is the principal blah, blah, blah? Will Willow blah her blah blah with blah? Why's Xander so blah?

Yeah, yeah, questions, and I'm sure they're really interesting to somebody. But let's hit the really important things about this ep first, shall we?

Fashion Statements

The Good
Xander's slicker-than-slick suit. Whoa, Mama, that boy cleans up nice!

Giles' trenchcoat. Gads, I've a thing for that man!

Spike's tortured look. Always attractive in a man.

Buffy's cute little pendant. Me wants.

The principal. Just one big "Fashion Do!"

The Bad
Anya! The granny blouse--what demon dimension did it crawl out of? And who told her she could do that with her hair? It doesn't get much worse, kiddos. Unless, of course, we're talking about Halfrek's getup.

Willow's froofy shirt. I'd hoped the time she spent evil might have cured her of the Pink, but apparently not.

Buffy's super lo-rise pants. I'm surprised the principal didn't send her home to change.

The Iffy
The kids. Only time will tell if Kit's "I'm a Goth" fixation, Carlos' "I'm down, homie!" look, and Dawn's "Look at me, I'm a normal kid!" outfits will become truly obnoxious.

Now that that's out of the way, let's get on to other subjects.

Plot in a Nutshell
The high school's been rebuilt on the same ground (Lord, what fools these mortals be!), Dawn's going there, and surprise, surprise, the very first day, she gets dragged underground by "manifest spirits" out for vengeance. Imagine! Buffy comes down, beats 'em all up, and Xander gets to save the day again. Buffy gets a new job. Spike gets a visit from something Eeeevil.

Highlights
The girl getting killed right off the top. What a way to start an episode!

Anytime Dawn screams. I love that sound!

Halfrek giving Anya a reality check. Aside from the truly horrific outfits, it was great to see someone who truly cares about Anya's demonhood. No doubt the Scoobies haven't been giving her much support, the jerks. Maybe that's why she's inflicting penance through clothes upon herself.

Spike. This is what's been needed for a long time: someone to truly show the consequences of neglecting one's calling. He's miserable. In torment. Worse yet, he looks awful. He can't even concentrate on getting his hair dyed! Truly, a much-needed immoral to our fable. If Buffy goes all smooshy on him now, I think I'll hurl.

The Giles scenes. Yes, they were all Willow-y and such, but the man is such a delight to see, whatever his moral orientation is. Makes me envious of Willow for getting to gasp and writhe in his arms . . .

Sorry. Drifted there.

The final scene: Wow! What a terrific Rogue's Gallery! It was so wonderful to see dear Richard again. For someone who started out human, he's come a remarkably long way. Too bad they had to blow him up. This, however, gives me hope that perhaps his spirit hasn't flown. And Buffy Herself joining the crew? Ahh, what a delight! I'd had hopes for her that she'd find her Inner Evil last season, and they were sorely disappointed. Perhaps they'll be rewarded this season.

Lowlights
Sisterly bonding. Puke.

Xander saving the day. See above re: puke.

Willow and her connection to Mommy Earth. Puke to the third power.

Did I mention Anya's outfit? Puke to the nth degree.

Buffy being nice to Spike. Come on!

Burning Questions
So who was the chick who got offed in Istanbul?

What is this Big Bad? Something older than the Old Ones, they said. "Before the Bang. Before the Word," said the Master. Which would seem to imply older than the earth itself. Is it older than the Key? Older than Glorificus (The Most Whiny-Baby One)? Is it well-dressed?

Will Anya start behaving like a Vengeance Demon again? Screw the Scoobies, honey! You know what you're best at.

Will Spike get his marbles back? If so, will he finally start behaving like a demon again, or go back to being a bad example?

Whose side is the principal on? I'm hoping he's evil, 'cause hello, hottie!

Would someone please clonk Xander on the head before he saves the day again?

Would someone please clonk Willow on the head just on general principles?

Will we get to see Giles on a horse again? Please?

Overall Rating
8 over q on the Non Sequitur Scale. Pretty decent, with enough violence to keep my attention, and it set up some scenarios that could very well be interesting. If they can keep up the momentum, this season might not be as crushingly disappointing as the first six.

[> Re: Lessons: the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers, duh!) -- Rob, 16:25:03 09/25/02 Wed

Loved your review, although I disagree with most of your "lowlights," especially regarding "Willow and Mommy Earth." I still think they were really funny, though.

Oh, and I totally agree about Anya with the Granny Suit...The first moment she was on screen, I didn't even realize it was her. She really needs de-frump herself quickly!

Love the review. I hope you keep doing them each week.

Just one thing...

"If they can keep up the momentum, this season might not be as crushingly disappointing as the first six."

Do you really think that all of the six seasons before this were "crushingly disappointing"? That just seems a wee bit harsh (now there's an oxymoron lol).

Rob

[> [> A word from Honorificus' nicer alter-ego: -- HonorH, 16:34:39 09/25/02 Wed

You might want to take everything she says with a grain of salt. The views expressed by my Super-Evil Alter-Ego aren't necessarily shared by me. For instance: while she and I totally agree on Anya's outfit, I happen to have found all six previous seasons a joy. She's just got sour grapes because there wasn't enough death, destruction, and going evil.

[> [> [> LOL. Okay, I get it now. D'oh! I feel dumb! -- Rob, 17:46:40 09/25/02 Wed

[> [> I'm alone on this, aren't I? -- Humanitas, 22:31:56 09/25/02 Wed

I liked Anya's outfit. But then, I have a thing for high collars. Emphasises those tender little necks...

[> [> [> Not quite... -- Rob, 08:01:03 09/26/02 Thu

A friend of mine thought she looked really hot, and loved the outfit. So you're not alone in the Buffyverse. ;o)

Rob

[> [> [> Let's put it this way... -- cjl, 11:51:56 09/26/02 Thu

Once you see Anya in red lingerie, the "granny" look just won't cut it.

[> You forgot ONE BIG GIANT QUESTION! (spoils) -- neaux, 16:32:24 09/25/02 Wed

When did Death NOT become her gift?

or if its still her gift then does a cell phone = death?

hmmm..

[> [> Re: You forgot ONE BIG GIANT QUESTION! (spoils) -- LadyStarlight, 16:49:19 09/25/02 Wed

Well, judging by the feminine lack of driving ability in Sdale, a cell phone could equal death. ;)

[> [> Cell phones are evil. -- Honorificus (The Be-All and End-All), 18:16:38 09/25/02 Wed

Which gives me hope for Buffy. If she's giving her darling little sister something that evil, she's headed in the right direction.

[> Re: Lessons: the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers, duh!) -- Cheryl, 17:53:16 09/25/02 Wed

"Xander saving the day. See above re: puke."

Actually, my first thought while watching last night was that Spike, even in his confused/demented state, actually saved the day. If he hadn't told Buffy about the talisman, she wouldn't have known what to tell Xander.

[> [> Egads! That makes it even worse! -- Honorificus (The Too-Cute-For-Words One), 18:01:37 09/25/02 Wed

Spike comes back, respectably insane, and the first thing he does is save the Brat and her pack? I'm about to give up on that boy.

[> [> [> And, yet, there are words -- Devilish (the Feisty One), 20:50:55 09/25/02 Wed

[> Yet another question, for the ASH estrogen brigade -- Vickie, 18:19:30 09/25/02 Wed

Where did the contact lenses go? Or did the coven's magic temporarily fix Giles' eyesight?

[> Hail to thee, o...oh, screw it, you know the drill. (Demonic 7.1 review) -- The Unclean, 19:50:40 09/25/02 Wed

I have rarely experienced such pleasure during a Buffy season premiere.

All during Season Six, we held out false hopes that the inevitable tide of evil would wash over Buffy and her pathetic minions, and we would see a Sunnydale rededicated to the cause of chaos. That hope was a delusion. The cur Whedon and his she-creature Noxon simply teased us with the darkness of his creations only to guide them out the other side purified by...echhh...love.

But now, with this first episode of Season 7, we're back to what made this show great in the first place. Buffy teaching her sister/whelp Dawn the truth about the universe: that raw power, not insipid human concepts of morality, hold sway over all creation. And what a great joy it was to see them return to the hellpits of Sunnydale High, where ritual humiliation and pain shepherd young humans into the cold light of their ever-so-brief adult lives.

The madness of the traitorous demon Spike gave me a gloriously unholy feeling of exhilaration. The pathetic sack of meat thought regaining his soul would end his pain; he knows now that a soul burns far worse than a noontime sun. I wish him an endless stream of torment and eternal regret over his foolish action. (Besides, it's excellent drama, and James Marsters is one heck of an actor.)

With the killing in Istanbul at the start and the harbinger of impending doom at the end, a demon could hardly ask for more...

(Well, perhaps the ritual slaughter of the entire "Scrappy Gang," but there's only so much they'll show on network TV.)

[> [> Of course you can bypass the toadying! -- Honorificus (The Ever-So-Generous One), 21:05:51 09/25/02 Wed

You know I simply adore you, darling, and your review amply demonstrates just why. I think we must be unsouled-mates.

Indeed, this is a far more promising season premiere than we've ever had, I do believe. Even last year with the black magick and raising the Slayer into despair, though definitely a step up, wasn't quite . . . quite. The Slayer finally seems to be truly getting what has been told her time and time again: power trumps the idle concepts of "right" and "wrong" every time.

And a cheer for returning to high school, surely the closest the humans will ever get to a truly demonic society! True, the ritual feeding on their fellows is mostly symbolic, and reputations get maimed more than body parts, but at SHS, at least, there's enough bloodshed to almost make up for those shortcomings.

We're also quite on a level as far as Spike's torment goes. Finally, something we can hold up to our spawn and say, "This is what happens when you play with humans instead of eat them!" How glorious!

I am looking forward to the coming weeks. So glad so many fine malevolent fiends will be watching with me!

[> [> [> HA HA HA! BASH SMASH SMOOSH! GRRRRR! Argghh HA HA. BASH. -- Bizarro Rochefort, 21:54:34 09/25/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Back evil beast! Or I shall gut thee! (holy ugly!) -- Rochefort, 21:59:17 09/25/02 Wed

[> And the biggest Burning Question of all: -- Honorificus (The Groovelicious One), 22:43:20 09/25/02 Wed

When Giles asked Willow, "Do you want to be punished?" did anyone else think she should answer, "Yes! I need to be spanked"?

[> [> There is precedent -- Apophis (so evil I don't need another name), 23:48:43 09/25/02 Wed

Willow has toyed with the role of Mistress of Pain in the past. Maybe she wants a taste of her own medicine. Or maybe she's just getting Giles right where she wants him...

[> [> [> Eewwwww! I'm blind! I'm blind! -- Rob, 08:02:14 09/26/02 Thu

[> Re: Lessons: the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers, duh!) -- Rufus, 01:42:45 09/26/02 Thu

I'll take a stab at a few things you said....

Anytime Dawn screams. I love that sound!

You are truly disturbed...which is very attractive.

Spike's tortured look. Always attractive in a man.

Did you see my comment about "holy water and a spray bottle"....now that would be tortured...;)

The principal. Just one big "Fashion Do!"

I keep saying this....I'm willing to cheat on Giles and Riley with this new guy.....

Whose side is the principal on? I'm hoping he's evil, 'cause hello, hottie!

Who cares....I'm evil or was that virtuous enough for the both of us.

One thing about this ep.....it brings new meaning to being sent to the Principals office....;)

[> Dumb question that's been bugging me -- Vickie, 17:29:34 09/26/02 Thu

The fabulous one noted Buffy's painted-on lowrise pants. I'm sure all the appreciators of the female form approved of those pants. However, what's with the now-you-see-it now-you-don't cell phone?

You cannot make me believe she has anywhere to put that phone in those pants. It was a nice little phone, true. But I really think anything bigger than a dime would have been visible.

[> [> The Fabulous One's answer: -- Honorificus (The All-Knowing One), 17:49:00 09/26/02 Thu

Buffy keeps it in the same place she keeps her stakes. I believe that in Highlander fandom, they call it "Katana Space."

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