September 2002 posts
Conspiracy Theories (Spoilers for "Lessons")
-- Darby, 19:34:02 09/24/02 Tue
Still digesting the new episode, but there were a couple bizarre
twists that really stuck out...
How much was part of the opening sequence like the "Vampire
Rehabilitation Scene" written here a while back (I'm sorry,
I should know by whom, but I forget this stuff)?
How often have we made cracks about the "hearts as big as
Texas" in vamps, only to have Dawn miss with what looked
like better aim than 85% of the successful stakings on the show?
And who here predicted that this year's Big Bad would be the Hellmouth
itself? Wanna bet Spike's room is right under the principal's
office? "The three of us" indeed!
So, should the Board petition for a consultant credit, or should
I just sign up for a rubber room?
- Darby, who for years now has habitually said, "Well that
can't be good," and now who gets a look from his wife every
time someone on BtVS or AtS says it.
[> Hellmouth -- Finn
Mac Cool, 20:06:01 09/24/02 Tue
I suggested the Hellmouth itself be the Big Bad. And it looks
like I may be right! Or it's the First Evil. Oh, damn!
[> [> Spike -- meritaten,
20:45:03 09/24/02 Tue
why does this "Power", whatever it is, have control
over Spike? Could it be related the source of the power that restored
his soul?
"Always consequences"
[> [> [> Oops! Spoiler
above -- Meritaten, 20:59:43 09/24/02 Tue
[> "Vampire Rehab"
skit was MINE. Joss, I'm suing your butt.... -- cjl, 21:26:35
09/24/02 Tue
Oh wait. It's his characters.
Sorry. Never mind.
The subject
i wanted would ***spoil*** people! -- Corwin of Amber, 20:07:39
09/24/02 Tue
Til I realized what a jerk i'd be if I decared that
Xander saved the day again, in the subject line. He's 2 for 2.
Did anyone else get a weird 'Ozzie and Harriet' vibe
when Buffy and Xander were getting Dawn ready for school? Maybe
it's just seeing Xander in a suit. Confident Xander seems to be
back again, hopefully he'll stay around for a while.
Willow is learning 'environment friendly' magic now.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Anya is still a vengeance demon, and it fits her like
shoes on a fish. Having a conscience would make her job well nigh
unbearable, I expect she'll either be renouncing demonhood altogether,
or going to work for the other side, like Skip. An interesting
scene would be watching Anya crush her own talisman this time.
More thoughts later.
[> as to Xander -- Rochefort,
20:57:43 09/24/02 Tue
I have a friend that thinks since Joss stopped running the ship
Xander lost his soul. Well I mean Xander IS Joss in a way, right?
My friend was so upset that Xander just kept getting more and
more clueless and more and more shleppy. Being only comic relief
when he used to be much more. I think Joss putting him in a suit
was, in one grand stroke, saying "goodbye to this misconstructed
Xander. Hello to the Xander we knew he could be."
[> [> Re: as to Xander
-- Corwin of Amber, 21:25:02 09/24/02 Tue
Thats a really good point. If Xander were Joss's semi-alter-ego,
or "voice" on the show, it's natural that the character
would be used less, or used for different purposes, under a different
writer. Seeing Xander's downward spiral in the 5th and 6th seasons
was distressing, because he was the character I could most identified
with.
You could also look at the end of last season as Xander's equivalent
of Buffy's jumping through the portal at the end of season 5.
Maybe (hopefully?) standing between Willow and the destruction
of the world was an epiphany for him. That was certainly the impression
I had.
[> The Xander news may not
be all good (7.1 spoiler) -- cjl, 21:44:30 09/24/02 Tue
It's noteworthy that Xander's first appearance in S7 (new suit,
fancy car) comes as Giles says on the voice-over that eventually,
people are who they are, no matter what the immediate circumstances
or superficial outer trappings. For most of us Xanderfans, that
could mean he's still the same, funny, loveable, loyal Heart of
the Scoobs we've looked forward to seeing week after week. Then
again, it could also mean he's still the same "clueless,
scared little boy" Anya (with chilling accuracy) accused
him of being when the you-know-what hit the fan in "Entropy."
The big bucks and the fancy suit could conceal a Xander still
in crisis--with the badness coming from the "conceal"
part. Whenever a Scoob keeps an emotional crisis well-hidden from
the others by surface changes, it's always and I do mean ALWAYS
trouble.
[> [> Remember whistler?
It's not what you do in the big moments... -- aliera, 03:33:19
09/25/02 Wed
although I always wanted to point out to Whistler that without
the big moments there is no after! And yet long term change doesn't
always happen all-at-once-in-explosive ephiphanic moments, even
if you can have multiples like Buffy. The insight may come from
those; but, in non-BtVS life change requires "just a little
bit more."
So, what are
the "Lessons?" ****spoilers ***** -- Humanitas, 20:32:45
09/24/02 Tue
Ok, these are my first impressions of this week's ep. I'm away
from home, sitting in a little B&B in Kansas City, and the ep
has just finished. Since I am away from home, I have my laptop
with me, and was able to jot down some notes as the ep ran. I'll
upload this to the board tonight, when I can get online without
tying up phone lines the house needs for business. Then - off
to chat, hopefully just in time to catch the West Coasters!
Set Up
All right, that's out of the way. Let me start by saying that
of the few season openers that I've seen at first broadcast (S4
on), this is the one that leaves me most wantng to see more of
the season. Bargaining was more intense, but this one was
more intriguing. The season is set up pretty thoroughly here -
we catch up with all our old friends, and meet a couple of new
ones, we get the Initial Premise (the re-opening of Hellmouth
High), and we set up the plot.
Granted, the basic premise of the plot thus far isn't new. A very
dark pow'r is about to rise in Sunnydale - where have we heard
that before? Oh, yeah - every season for the last six years. But,
as with most genre fiction, the issue isn't "is this new,"
but "ooh, how are they going to do it this time?" I
have no doubt that we will be treated to a fresh take on the old
Dark Pow'r theme.
Power
Speaking of Power, it looks like that's going to be a major theme
this season. We start and end with the same line:
Buffy: It's about power.
...and that line resonates through the entire episode.
We start out with Buffy finally training Dawn. I think I'm going
to like the Grown-up Buffy. She's sure of herself, and her concern
for Dawn makes her a little less flip about her duties. I think
that may be a symptom of becoming an adult - realizing that you
have a stake (pun intended, of course ;) in the world, something
to protect. Our girl has come a long way from "If the apocalypse
comes, beep me" (Never Kill a Boy on the First Date). On
the other hand, outside of the limited realm of Being the Slayer,
Buffy is still as insecure as ever. Her interaction with mundane
situations are still a bit, um, well, awkward, so she's still
vulnerable.
Anyway, back to power. The theme in the scene speaks pretty much
for itself, as the text is pretty overt. One thing that I notice
is that Buffy's last advice to Dawn is to run away, because she
(Dawn) is not the Slayer, does not have the power. I suspect that
Buffy has yet to come to terms with the fact that Dawn does
have power, not by being the Slayer, but just by being herself:
a tough, intelligent "little woman."
Of course, "with great power comes great responsibility,"
to quote Spider Man, and that is what our next big scene is about.
Willow is slowly coming to terms with her own power. There's a
lot going on here, but the thrust of it is that Willow cannot
simply cease to be a powerful witch, no matter how badly she wants
to. So, despite Buffy's advice to Dawn, we see that running away
is not really an option.
All right, let's take a look at the High School scenes. The over-riding
sensation of the high-school experience is one of powerlessness.
Your day is oppressively scheduled, you eat whatever the caf is
serving that day, and (if your school is built on a hellmouth)
monsters will occasionally try to kill you.
By the way, what on Earth possessed the Sunnydale School Board
to re-build the school on top of the Hellmouth?! You'd think that
a giant snake and a massive explosion would be enough to clue
in even the most deeply stupid adult. {sigh} Guess not.
First off, one notices that, for all her new-found self-confidence,
Buffy still does not react well to authority figures. When she
comes face to face with the new principal, she instinctively starts
babbling, assuming that she's in trouble. So school is, even for
the graduate, a place of, if not powerlessness, at least greatly
reduced power. This feeling is magnified, of course, by the vengeful
spirits that appear to harrass our heroes. In fact, they seem
to be deliberately designed to ttack Buffy's notions of her own
power. They are the ones that Buffy couldn't save, and they tell
her that in no uncertain terms. This sounds an awful lot like
the First Evil's tactics in Amends. Well, Masq? Fess up,
now. ;-)
Of course, the best way to make someone feel powerless is to isolate
them. Trouble is, when you isolate a number of people in the same
place, they're not so isolated any more, are they? So we have
the formation of Scooby Gang, the Next Generation. Of course,
Buffy learned about the isolation trick long ago, so what does
she do? She calls in Xander for a little help.
All right, now, about Anya. She's got power issuses, too. She
has her demon powers back, but she clearly isn't back in top form.
As a result, she's pretty defensive with Halfrek. Power plays
into identity quite a lot here. Willow feels that power destroyed
her identity, while Anya's identity is built on a sense of power,
both demon and capitalist (ok, go ahead, make the redundancy jokes).
I suspect that Dawn leans more toward Anya's sense of how power
works than toward Willow's. She is determined not to be powerless,
insisting tht she's a woman, not a girl, covering her social gaffes
much more effectively than Buffy ever did, and finally by taking
the fight to the monsters. It will be interesting to see how this
all plays out. Buffy's best intentions notwithstanding, I bet
we'll see some more clashes between the Summers Girls as Dawn's
personal power begins to grow.
Identity
The other major theme in this ep is identity. Giles says that
"in the end, we are all who we are," but what makes
us what we are? Power is part of it, of course, but there's more
to it than that. We are also the sum of everything we have ever
seen and done. We saw the beginnings of this theme at the end
of last season - Willow is not just Scary Veiny Willow, but she
is also Crayon Breaky Willow. Her scene ith Giles shows that she
has still not come to terms with the fact that she cariies withing
her the potential for both extremes. She's getting there, but
she's not there yet.
We've often talked about the mythic qualities of this show, and
they are certainly in evidence here. Y'see, myth isn't just about
growing up, it's about how to be who we are. I'll leave the details
to our Campbellians, but it seems to me that the question addressed
here is "will you be defined by your past, or learn from
it?" Buffy refuses to be defined by the people she couldn't
save. "I don't care how you died." She is capable of
facing her past, and moving on. Willow has faced what she has
done, but she hasn't fully conquered it yet. And Anya is humiliated
by her inability to be what she was.
...and Spike
Notice how I've been avoiding Spike thus far? Truth is, I'm not
sure what to make of him at this point, other than that I'm not
loving the perm. He officially does not get to make fun of Glory
anymore! Let me see if I can puzzle this out...
Right. Well, Spike has some pretty obvious identity issues. Getting
his soul back seems to have driven him a little mad (plus turned
him into the Exposition Demon). He also is pretty powerless at
the moment, seemingly held in thrall by the Big Bad. That makes
a certain amount of sense, since at the moment he is having to
suddenly cope with a good century of evil, and the Big Bad seems
to be all about old evils coming back to haunt us. I dunno. I'm
stuck. What do y'all think?
[> My thoughts on "Lessons"
-- Finn Mac Cool, 21:29:38 09/24/02 Tue
I'm starting to wonder if the shapeshifting Big Bad isn't just
a delusion of Spike's. Something his addled brain conjured up.
It would certainly make an interesting plot point.
You covered the power issues pretty well, but what do you think
of the girl in Instanbul that we saw in the teaser? No one has
discussed her yet.
[> [> Slayer wannabe
-- Maya, 21:50:26 09/24/02 Tue
[> [> Don't have much
time to type now. Just had to say...("Lessons" spoilers)
-- Rob, 21:56:09 09/24/02 Tue
...that I think this was one of "Buffy"s most successful
season openers ever. It addressed just about every issue from
last year that was all dangly, and opens up whole new things for
the future. I really felt like the show was reinventing itself.
And, although I am a Season Six fan, I am ecstatic to see Buffy
happy again, Willow trying to deal with her actions, Dawn not
being annoying, etc. This episode was funnier than any episode
last year, and also had a few genuine jumps in it. I absolutely
loved it, love how they're incorporating the characters with the
new high school (although I hope they don't focus too much on
Dawn and her friends...I want the focus to remain squarely on
the Scoobies). I can't wait to find out what's going to happen
with Spike. Wow, what an amazing performance from JM! And those
scratch marks on his chest were chilling. Oh! And all of those
amazing surprise guest stars!! Oooh! Oooh!
This episode did the nearly unthinkable...Made me more pumped
up for the next episode than I think I even was for this one before
it aired.
I'll come up with some more thoughts later.
But until then...Wow!
Rob
P.S. So glad they finally got cell phones also!
[> [> Re: My thoughts
on "Lessons" -- Humanitas, 21:59:51 09/24/02
Tue
Not sure. To be honest, I'd forgotten the scene until it was brought
up in chat. The current theory seems to be that she is/was a potential
slayer, but nobody knows.
[> [> Don't have much
time to type now. Just had to say...("Lessons" spoilers)
-- Rob, 22:05:51 09/24/02 Tue
...that I think this was one of "Buffy"s most successful
season openers ever. It addressed just about every issue from
last year that was all dangly, and opens up whole new things for
the future. I really felt like the show was reinventing itself.
And, although I am a Season Six fan, I am ecstatic to see Buffy
happy again, Willow trying to deal with her actions, Dawn not
being annoying, etc. This episode was funnier than any episode
last year, and also had a few genuine jumps in it. I absolutely
loved it, love how they're incorporating the characters with the
new high school (although I hope they don't focus too much on
Dawn and her friends...I want the focus to remain squarely on
the Scoobies). I can't wait to find out what's going to happen
with Spike. Wow, what an amazing performance from JM! And those
scratch marks on his chest were chilling. Oh! And all of those
amazing surprise guest stars!! Oooh! Oooh!
This episode did the nearly unthinkable...Made me more pumped
up for the next episode than I think I even was for this one before
it aired.
I'll come up with some more thoughts later.
But until then...Wow!
Rob
P.S. So glad they finally got cell phones also!
[> [> Delusions (spoilers)
-- Scroll, 06:59:22 09/25/02 Wed
I don't think the Big Bads are Spike's delusions because Spike
has never even met the Mayor. Even if he'd heard about the Mayor
from the Scoobies, Spike certainly wouldn't have been able to
conjure that perfectly cheerful Jim-dandy voice and smile. My
guess is that the Big Bads are spirit manifestations like the
zombie/ghosts that were haunting Buffy. Something is resurrecting
these villains, but why? And why lump Buffy in with the Big Bads?
[> [> [> Re: Delusions
(spoilers) -- Lyonors, 08:15:12 09/25/02 Wed
I definitly agree with your specs on it being a manifestation
from Spike's craziness, hallucination or whatnot Scroll. But not
to be semanticky, but I dont think "resurrect" is the
right word. Look at the spirits, they all died there. Warren and
Glory didn't die there, although Warren did die, Drusilla isn't
even dead(well she is _dead_ what with the non-living thing, but
she didnt loose her life there, and she still has her unlife),
so clearly no resurrecting there, the Master and the Mayor both
fit into the possible "resurrecting" bit, but Adam doesn't,
but Buffy....she died there...she was brought back to life, but
she _did_ die there.....
ARGH!!! My brain is confused and FRIED!
-Ly-
[> [> [> [> Re:
Delusions (spoilers) -- Miss Edith, 08:34:47 09/25/02 Wed
Well I haven't had the chance to watch the episode for myself
yet but when I first read the wildfeed I got the impression that
the big bad was channeling all the dead big bads from each season
to torture Spike with. I found it very interesting that Spike
was being revisited by his own mistakes. He is clearly still haunted
by his relationship with Buffy and Dru is using the exact words
that he used on Buffy about belonging in the dark. And poor Spike
has no friends or family to gather strength from and help him
turn away from the darkness. Perhaps this seaon will be about
Spike and his choice of whether to use his soul for good or evil?
The big bad certainly seemed keen on trying to keep Spike in the
basement and convince him he couldn't be good. Wolfram and Heart
always wanted to win Angel to their side because a souled vampire
will play a big part in an upcoming battle. Maybe the big bad
is working on Spike having given up on Angel?
The problem with my original theory that the dead big bads from
each season were being channeled by the ultimate big bad is that
Dru is not dead and Buffy would hardly have been channelled as
she isn't dead either. Maybe the big bad is a shapeshifter but
then why use the mayor who Spike had little on screen contact
with? Even Warren hardly worried Spike much, Spike just seemed
to see Warren as a techo geek useful for helping with his chip.
I doubt he would see Warren as a big bad as he doesn't even know
about Tara yet. I am pretty sure that Spike was seeing more than
his own delusions. This seasons enemy is working on Spike to drive
him crazy for a reason.
Interesting that Dru was used, rather than Angelous. I wonder
if that was just the non crossover rule or whether there was more
to it?
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Delusions (spoilers) -- Tanda, 10:31:15 09/25/02
Wed
It's about power.
The -physical- manifestations (ghoulies)had power over Buffy/Dawn
and friends ... and Spike warned them about that.
But, the manifestation there with Spike, did it have power over
him? Was it a physical manifestation? He seemed to figure out
very quickly that the ghouls were physical, is this because of
a contrast to his "room mate" that he knew wasn't physical?
The "other" in the room with Spike doesn't talk TO Spike,
but AT him. And likewise, Spike doesn't directly interact with
it.
And, evidently, the only thing in the room that is hurting Spike,
is Spike (the scrapes on his chest.)
... just wandering thoughts...
~Tanda
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Delusions (spoilers) -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:57:28
09/25/02 Wed
While I still think the Big Bads being delusions is valid, I do
have an indicator they weren't being channeled:
They behaved like caricatures of themselves. Warren's misogyny
and Glory's self obsession were front and center. Adam, Buffy,
and the Mayor both repeated lines of dialouge they had before
(well, the Mayor paraphrased a little). The Master seemed to be
a bit redundant in using "before the Bang; before the Word"
and "it's not about right; it's not about wrong." As
for Drusilla, well, she didn't seem like a caricature, but then
she was almost a walking caricature by herself. I got the impression
that something or somethings were imitating them, just not superbly.
This lends credence to it being either a shapeshifter or Spike's
mad hallucinations.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Delusions (spoilers) -- anom, 23:51:01 09/25/02 Wed
"Look at the spirits, they all died there. Warren and Glory
didn't die there, although Warren did die, Drusilla isn't even
dead(well she is _dead_ what with the non-living thing, but she
didnt loose her life there, and she still has her unlife), so
clearly no resurrecting there, the Master and the Mayor both fit
into the possible "resurrecting" bit, but Adam doesn't,
but Buffy....she died there...she was brought back to life, but
she _did_ die there.....
ARGH!!! My brain is confused and FRIED!"
All of them, even Drusilla & Buffy, *have* died, even if they
aren't dead now (Dru undead, Buffy resurrected). Maybe the whatever-it-is
can only take the form of people--well, beings--who have died,
no matter what their current state.
[> [> [> Re: Delusions
(spoilers) -- Isabel, 04:53:25 09/26/02 Thu
I always figured that the 'whatever it is' was trying to berate
Spike for getting a soul and was trying to seduce him into ignoring
it. To do a good seduction of Spike these days it kinda had to
be Buffy. But we'll see.
[> pouncing on the important
part -- parakeet, 22:25:52 09/24/02 Tue
Spike's hair. (Ok, it's not important.) I was under the impression
that it was just meant to look like he hasn't been caring for
himself, and it's grouwn out (hence the dark roots).
As for the building site of Sunnydale High, well, the school board
already owned the land and probably couldn't sell it.
I liked your thoughts on the theme of power and would say something
somewhat intelligent on the subject, but I'm still thinking about
Spike's hair and the relationship between land prices, property
taxes and school budgets in Sunnydale (I won't bore you).
[> [> Re: pouncing on
the important part -- Indri, 22:59:35 09/24/02 Tue
And yet Spike is perfectly clean-shaven. So now we know---vampires
don't need to shave. Which means that Angelus' dreadful little
flashback moustache really was a stick-on.
[> [> [> Re: pouncing
on the important part -- parakeet, 00:18:13 09/25/02 Wed
I forgot about facial hair! (And I mistyped "grown".)
By the way, I'm re-watching the episode (excellent, mostly), and
can anybody tell what Spike says after "Duck" when Buffy
finds him? It's something about being with the dead and being
busy, but I can't quite hear the line.
[> [> [> [> Re:
pouncing on the important part -- Miss Edith, 07:41:11
09/25/02 Wed
"No visitors today. Terribly busy. It's just the three if
us nobody comes here." That's according to the Spikefeed
anyway. Over here in England I shall have to wait until January
to see the episode for myself.
[> [> [> [> [>
Thank you, Miss Edith! (NT) -- parakeet, 10:56:07 09/25/02
Wed
[> [> Re: pouncing on
the important part -- Tanda, 00:57:37 09/25/02 Wed
The school ...
Over here in California ... LA school district has a big "oops"
written all over then unfinished school Belmont:
From Education Week 3/20/02:
The Los Angeles school district, facing an urgent need to relieve
overcrowding and seat thousands of new students, is pushing forward
with construction of the vast Belmont Learning Center, the controversial
facility that is believed to be the nation's most expensive public
school.
The school board voted 6-1 last week to allow Superintendent Roy
Romer to negotiate a contract with a construction group to finish
work on the partially completed school, which rises above real
estate that includes part of an oil field. The 737,000-student
district, the nation's second largest, expects to bring the final
deal to a vote within 90 days.
The board halted work on Belmont in 2000 after environmental testing
of the 34-acre site revealed the presence of poisonous hydrogen
sulfide and methane in the soil and a bitter public debate erupted
over the potential health risk to students.
(the rest here: http://www.edweek.org/ew/newstory.cfm?slug=27belmont.h21)
Hellmouth indeed.
~Tanda
[> [> Re: pouncing on
the important part -- vh, 06:25:06 09/25/02 Wed
My comment is in regard to the term "perm": I've always
thought that Mr. Marsters' hair was naturally curly. Therefore,
my guess is that he would not need a perm to put his hair in the
state we saw; in fact, he would need vast amounts of styling products
to tame his hair into the slicked down hair of his first seasons
(speaking of nancy-boy hair gel...). His hair was more relaxed
last season, and much more wild (yes, with dark roots--no doubt
much to his scalp's relief) as of the first episode of this season,
as befit his mental state.
If it were my hair, now, that would require a perm!
[> What about the audience's
Lesson (spoils) -- neaux, 04:17:24 09/25/02 Wed
Ok.. I just said that .. I dont know if this is a Lesson that
the audience is supposed to "get" or just establishing
a theme for the season but...
how bout "Connected"
Everything is connected, I believe is what Willow was saying..
"the root system" Willow can feel the Hellmouth from
over in Britain. Cool stuff. But Only know can I look back at
the opening sequence with the vampire whose foot is "Caught
on a root or something" and possibly understand what is going
on.
If everything is connected then Hell Yeah, every Hellish being
on the Hellmouth is connected from the vampires to Anya's Demon
friends to ghosts and zombies and damn wasn't Spike awfully quick
to analyze what was spooking the school? Looks like we shall see
a major connection of all the baddies this season. Especially
after the last scene.
And speaking of connections, looks like Joss heard my plea for
Verizon Wireless to invade Sunnydale. Dawn, Xander and Buffy have
their own 3-way going on. (Did I just say that?)
Anyhoo.. that was just a quick rundown of what I think will be
the major theme this season
Please insert "Got to get myself Connected" song here.
[> [> Found it - connections
= power =what we are -- shadowkat, 09:23:41 09/25/02 Wed
Sorry didn't answer directly before, feeling very unconnected
this morning, like moving in haze. Also speaking of connected
- damn cable reception could have been better.
It's not just about being connected, it's about what connects
us. And who we are. Deep down inside. As the seasons progress,
each of the character's masks or personas are ripped off.
I'm too dopey to run through them right now. But if you think
about it - each character has had a different journey each year,
which adds onto last one, and each journey emphasizes, parallels
or expands on another character's journey.
Down at their core - they haven't changed - they've just become
more what they truly are. According to the BB - everyone is where
they need to be for the final ride.
Willow can feel the connections through the power she sucked in
last year. Spike can visualize them through his soul which connects
him to humanity, he is no longer unconnected and his demon which
connects him to the demon world. Buffy can sense it through her
slayer powers. Xander through the hands that constructed the school.
Dawn through being the key. Anya through vengeance.
The Big Bads from all the years are all connected to one another
- one long stream. Each different versions of an evil concept.
Authority gone amok, Organized evil, Chaotic evil, Gleeful Evil,
Seductive Evil, Psychotic...
Each season has discussed connectedness in some way. We see it
in PRimeval, The Gift, Prophecy Girl (blood needed to pull Master
out of hellmouth), Becoming. In each they defeat the baddie together.
Also while watching last night's episode I keep seeing portions
of Buffy's Dream from Restless...the whole section with Riley
and Adam and the bit about we aren't demons, is that a fact? And
her discussion with Tara and First Slayer.
No friends. The kill. The slay. And how Buffy compartmentalizes
everything - she puts her mother behind a wall, her friends in
a picture, the slayer in the desert, and Riley in the initiative.
Separate. But all are connected. Somehow.
Call it hunch but I think this year is about who we are and where
the power comes from and how it all is connected.
Back to the Beginning means back to our origin - because to see
the connection, to understand the power, is to see the source,
the origin which is the first ones - first slayer, first vampire...can't
find words for it but first evil doesn't feel right somehow.
sk (who is now rambling incoherently and going to try and work
considering she's at work.)
[> [> [> Is it just
me, or couldn't the First Slayer make up her mind? -- AngelVSAngelus,
10:36:32 09/25/02 Wed
and this is something that's bothered and confused me for a long
time.
In Restless, the First Slayer abjects to Buffy's social connections,
to her being partially "distracted" from the killing,
violent and primal aspects of Slayer-hood.
Then, in Intervention, whilst the gang is dealing with who they
think is the real Buffy boinking Spike, the actual Slayer has
a sit down pow-wow with the First, here a spirit guide, who encourages
her loving connections to others as the pain through which she
can forge strength.
Color me confused. Then erase and paint me the right color with
your wisdom, SK, Masq, Rufus, anyone...
[> [> [> [> It
wasn't the First Slayer in Intervention, it was a spirit taking
her form. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:02:10 09/25/02 Wed
[> The Power of Lessons
(Spoilers for S6 and Lessons) -- Buffyboy, 05:00:59 09/25/02
Wed
In Two to Go EvilWillow, just after the once unconscious Buffy
regained her consciousness and struggled to her feet, comments:
WILLOW
Buffy, I gotta tell ya. I get it now. The Slayer thing really
isnít
about the violence. Itís about the power.
She looses a stream of energy at Buffy. The plasma hits her full
force and throws
her back against the wall.
She collapses to the floor, moaning and in pain. Willow stands
over her, smiling.
WILLOW
And thereís no one in the world who has the power to stop
me
now.
Thereís a sudden flash of green light and Willow is thrown
the length of the store.
She cries out in pain and rolls over, bleeding from the nose.
She looks over to find
RUPERT GILES standing in the doorway, his gaze cold and hard.
GILES
Iíd like to test that theory.
(Quotations from Psyche transcripts.)
After teaching Buffy a lesson, i.e.. kicking ìevery square
inchî of her ass, EvilWillow claims to have learned one
of her own: ìItís all about the power.î The
power to defeat oneís foe. The power to impose oneís
will on another. These exercises of power are what make the role
of the Slayer attractive to EvilWillow. The only thing that could
possibly stand in her way would be a greater power, a power that
could impose its will on her. Yet we ultimately learn that itís
not Giles greater power to impose his will that saves the day,
but rather a different kind of power, a power rooted in concern
and respect for the other, a power that opens Willowís
heart to Xanderís pleas and saves the world.
Lessons begins with nearly this same phrase, after the opening
scene in Istanbul which I donít claim to understand. Buffy
is giving Dawn a Slayer Lesson. The first words out of Buffyís
mouth are: ìItís about power. Whoís got it.
Who knows how to use it.î She is intent on convincing Dawn
that the new vampire has the power and that neither the wooden
stake nor Dawn does. This seems to be the main point of the Lesson.
Dawn might learn to ìroll with the punchesî but in
the last analysis, the power lies with the vampire and discretion
is the better part of valor, at least as far as Dawn is concerned.
As Act One begins, Willow has skipped out on her latest lesson
from the Coven and instead gets one from Giles.
WILLOW
I donít have that much power. I donít think.
GILES
Everythingís connected. Youíre connected to a great
power, whether you feel it or not.
WILLOW
Well, you should just take it from me.
GILES
You know we canít. It isnít a hobby or an addiction.
Itís inside you now, this magic. Youíre responsible
for it.
According to Giles, Willow power is now part of her, connecting
her to something greater. The power of magic is no longer something
that Willow either dabbles in nor is it an external substance
with addicting powers. It is something internal to Willow that
connects her to a greater power whether she likes it or not, whether
she acknowledges it or not. In a later scene Willow gets another
lesson, this time not form Giles, but from the earth itself. As
trouble manifests itself in Sunnydale, Willow is all but overcome.
WILLOW
And I feltÖI felt the earth. Itís all connected. It
is, but itís not all good and pure and rootsy. Thereís
a deepÖ deep black.
This great power to which Willow is internally connected is not
all good, but rather has a profoundly dark side, a side which
had clearly manifested itself earlier in the actions of EvilWillow.
Anya received a Lesson too. Halfrek chastises her for failing
to exercise her vengeance demon powers effectively. ìNo
deaths. No eviscerations.î It seems that Anyaís time
as a human has "corrupted" her demon powers and she
now exhibits a compassion and respect for the cursed, which has
made her the laughing stock of the vengeance demon world.
Finally, the newly souled Spike gets a Lesson from the six-plus-one.
The point of this Lesson as far as power is concerned really manifests
itself when the Master makes his appearance.
MASTER
Right back to the beginning. Not the Bang. Not the Word. The true
beginning.
Ö
Look at you. You tried to do whatís right. Just like her.
Itís not about right. Not about wrong.
BUFFY
Itís about power.
Dismissing both modern science and the Christian religion, the
master scoffs at Spikeís new soul and what is from his
point of view Spikeís pathetic concern with right and wrong.
Itís only power that matters. But with this final claim
we are back to Buffyís first words in the episode. It seems
terribly significant that Buffy utters these final/first words.
(This final image of Buffy is now also the final image of the
opening credits replacing the Buffybot from The Gift used all
last season.)
The power to do good is always rooted in the power to do evil.
One cannot actually do good without the possibility of doing evil.
This is as true of Buffyís Slayer power as Willowís
internalized magic power connecting her to some greater power.
The difference between this good power and truly evil power is
that good power is not simply the power to impose oneís
will on the world or onto another person, though sometimes it
certainly does involve the imposition of oneís willóBuffy
alter all does slay demons, but rather it is also the power to
be guided by something more than the criterion of success. This
ìsomething moreî can take the form of the concern
and respect for the other brought to EvilWillow through Gilesí
Coven magicks, the compassion show by Anya to the cursed, as well
as that something that Buffy has nearly always exhibits, though
sometimes feared she did not possess (the fear that sheís
just a killer). For the role of Slayer in Buffyís life
has nearly always been tempered by her specific emotional ties
to the Scooby Gang and her family. Indeed, itís about the
power, but not just the power to succeed, but also the power manifested
through concern,compassion and respect for the other.
[> [> Power and spirits
(spoilers, spoilery speculations) -- Scroll, 06:09:22 09/25/02
Wed
Great catch with DarkWillow's "power" bit, Buffyboy!
I think this year is going to really explore how Buffy's Slayer
origins, Willow's earth magick, and maybe Dawn's key-ness are
all rooted in some great power, a power that isn't defined as
"good" or "evil". I think the First Slayer
and the First Evil will definitely be playing big parts in this
season.
It's interesting that while all the spirit manifestations Spike
sees in that last scene were all Big Bads of past seasons, the
last spirit he sees is Buffy. Why would the First Evil (if that
is indeed who is behind the spirits) conjure Buffy, or equate
Buffy with all the Big Bads of Sunnyhell? Clearly those spirits
manifestations aren't Spike's hallucinations (since he's never
even met the Mayor) so I'm going to assume something is drawing
upon the Hellmouth to summon up the "spirits" of our
Big Bads. Does this mean we'll also see the spirits of our Heroes?
Namely: Jenny, Kendra, Joyce, Tara? Maybe even our dearly departed
Principal Snyder (though he's not really one of our Heroes)?
Scroll (Looking forward to this season with intense anticipation...)
[> [> [> Just a Thought
-- Lucifer_Sponge, 08:55:56 09/25/02 Wed
If the First Evil is up and about, isn't it possible that the
First Good is too? For every action there is an equal and opposite
reaction... Or somesuch.
Let's play:
Construct the personalities of the new people!!! -- Rochefort,
21:03:07 09/24/02 Tue
We don't know WHO the hell they are, they're promising, they're
kinda ethnic and not white... but are they wise cracking? Trouble
making? Romantic? Smart? Right now Dawn's friends seem like killable
extras in a Star Trek episode. So, before next week rolls around,
lets build some personalities for them, roll some out, try them
out, see how they work! Any suggestions?
[> Re: Let's play: Construct
the personalities of the new people!!! -- Corwin of Amber,
21:41:28 09/24/02 Tue
Unfortunately, I can't remember the names of the new scoobies.
(Newbies?)
But if this season is meant to parallel the first season, then
it's obvious that the boy is Xander 2.0 and the girl is Willow
2.0, as Dawn is Buffy 2.0.
The only evidence I have for this is a stereotype though...what
are goths but city slicken' wiccans? Again, this is a sterotype,
and I don't even think it's that simple. Joss could have a lot
of fun messing with our expectations this season.
[> [> Actually, I think
you've got some of the "Scrappy Gang" IDs reversed (spoilers
S7) -- cjl, 21:58:22 09/24/02 Tue
When I saw "Kit" for the first time, she reminded me
of what Faith might have looked like before she was called. There's
definitely something working in Joss' devious little mind in this
direction. When Faith comes back in 7.19(?), she might have a
little "sister" of her own to pass on her wisdom.
Yes, I'm on that bandwagon. KIT is the next slayer. Dawn, although
she's being trained in slayage, will be the Willow figure--her
superSummers genes will give her the ability to fight, but she'll
be the Key again before this season is through, I'm almost absolutely
sure of it.
Carlos? Not much of a first impression. Hard to top crashing into
a staircase railing on a skateboard--our Zeppo is hard act to
follow. Give the lad time.
[> [> [> It's Christened!
I love it! THE SCRAPPY GANG! Brilliant. -- Rochefort, 22:04:02
09/24/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Thanks,
but that collective nomenclature has been on a zillion other Buffy
sites. -- cjl, 22:10:04 09/24/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
I only go to this one. But I go to a lot of Scooby sites and
never saw it THERE. -- Rochefort, 22:13:16 09/24/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re:
It's Christened! I love it! THE SCRAPPY GANG! Brilliant. --
TeacherBoy, 22:22:43 09/24/02 Tue
I know I am going to get shot down on this, being a fairly recent
poster and all, and I know that the term "scrappy gang"
is already well established, but...
isn't there ANYTHING else they can be called? Anything? For me,
and my overly-pop culture soaked friends, the term "scrappy"
is 100% synonomous with 'jumping the shark', that is, the moment
at which a series has crossed the point of no return. Once "Scrappy-Doo"
was introduced, everything after that point was a joke, evil,
crap (et. al.). Please. Someone come up with something else to
replace this.
Anyone?
[> [> [> [> [>
The Goonies Perhaps? -- Majin Gojira, 05:23:39 09/25/02
Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Or 'The Teenies'? (they are teenagers, after all)
-- Marie, 08:04:57 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> how about the "Dawnies"? -- spi,
16:39:57 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Or 'The Schoolies'? (they are Scooby wannabes!) --
Marie, who's bored at work today, 08:11:53 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> How about 'Swannies' - short for Scooby Wannabes?
-- Guess who?, 08:14:31 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> "The New Kids on the Block?" -- Isabel,
17:09:50 09/25/02 Wed
No, wait, they're not demons. ;-)
My bad.
I kinda liked them and it's about time that Dawn got her own circle
of friends. I hope 'Scrappy Gang' doesn't stick too hard. I hated
Scrappy and those two kids seemed nice.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> How about the Brat Pack? -- HonorH, 18:03:50
09/25/02 Wed
Don't worry, I'm an official Dawn Defender, and I liked her friends,
too. I'm just thinking about the Brats Clique that likes 'shipping
Dawn and Connor. Sometimes, a Brat isn't a bad thing to be, especially
if it keeps you alive.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Scoobies: The Next Generation -- Humanitas,
21:34:31 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Scoobie Two -- Pegleg Pete,
07:40:38 09/26/02 Thu
[> New kids? Feh. --
oboemaboe, 00:33:04 09/25/02 Wed
Compared to X and W's intros in WttH, which made them instantly
likeable, these kids left me cold. I was kind of hoping they'd
get killed by episode's end.
I liked the guy in Dawn's art class in The Body much better.
[> [> We didn't actually
see much of them. -- HonorH (ever the optimist), 00:46:11
09/25/02 Wed
Very little, in fact. Have faith in Joss. Has he hired a bad actor
for a major part yet? Give 'em time to grow on ya.
[> [> Re: New kids? Feh.
-- darrenK, 05:47:17 09/25/02 Wed
Yeah, I liked Dawn's friends from The Body better too.
Maybe they were no longer available?
Or worse, they were from the first of Dawn's 3 freshman years
and they simply ceased to exist?
dK
[> [> [> Re: New kids?
Feh. -- TRM, 13:02:27 09/25/02 Wed
I wondered about that... was Dawn really one of the outcasts (as
the ghosts suggested)? The impression previously was that most
school kids thought Dawn was weird, but everytime we saw Dawn
at school she had friends about her; the boy and girl in The
Body, Janice (I think) in All the Way. Besides the
fact that the clear delineation of: "look, Dawn and her new
friends are outcasts!" felt too much like we we're being
led by the hands.
In terms of their personalities, I don't know if Joss is going
to aim for the Scooby Gang revival. I actually like Kit, largely
because she her outfit contradicted somewhat the way she acted
-- she seemed like a complex little girl. Was anyone else expecting
drugs to come out of Kit's purse when Dawn dumped it out? Or diet
pills? Or a gun? Maybe that was just me... Lives with her dad?
maybe? Single father? More wrenches in the work?
Carlos, on the other hand, didn't come off at all sympathetic
to me. We know he plays hookie, he has a basketball, he smokes,
and he uses the term "ran like a girl" in a traditionally
deragatory sense. Maybe Dawn really is in danger... of smoking.
Wood was good, and I actually am not too worried about his character.
I think that the writers might have planned on having some nice,
stable, positive principal figure to sortof throw a wrench in
the whole "principal's get eaten" thing. Plus, without
going to far into the forbidden topics, I think Wood's ethnicity
is indicative of the above theory. If Joss does have him killed
and/or turn evil, I'm afraid the audience reaction will be somewhat
of a mild dÈj¦ vu. I suspect, perhaps, only one
short phase where we might suspect his motives. Indeed, could
Wood be the antithesis of Snyder? The active, helpful, open principal
who would eventually help Buffy fight the demons off the Hellmouth?
Someone who learns about Sunnydale High's checkered past (much
as he did Buffy's)? I mean, with the Hellmouth underneath his
office, you know that sooner or later, he's going to be into some
trouble.
The singing couple. Well, what can I say? They sing, they love.
They'll be calling Anya within a week.
[> [> [> [> *snickers*
-- celticross, 13:12:12 09/25/02 Wed
"The singing couple. Well, what can I say? They sing, they
love. They'll be calling Anya within a week."
And they don't sing that well, so some of their listeners might
be calling on the vengence demon of hurt ears sooner than that.
:)
-cc, feeling snarky
Something
big is coming? -- marcus, 21:05:27 09/24/02 Tue
I got a distinct senese of deja-vu during the scnene when Halfrek
told Anya that something is brewing--beneath the Lower Beings
and the Old Ones. It sounded just like in "A New Man"
when Ethan told Giles that something called 314 has the demon
realm frightened and that something was stirring--"bigger
than [either of them]." I was disappointed when that somehthing
turned out to simply be Maggie Walsh's/Adam's project. However,
I trust I won't be disappointed this time, as evidenced by Willow's
visionary revelation and the AWESOME conclusion. Something big
is definitely coming.
[> season seven speculation
as to the big something -- Rochefort, 21:31:59 09/24/02
Tue
IT'S THE FIRST!
We knew it was going to be the big bad in season 7 ever since
season 4! We've been waiting!
Don't y'all recognize it from when it was talking as Jenny to
Angel? It talked to SPIKE IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Before the
big bang? First? The First Evil? The first slayer? The first everything!
The first can be any shape it wants. It can't be fought. It can't
be spoken. It is the source of the Slayer's power. It is the source
of ALLLL POWWWWER. It is eeeeeeeeeevvvvvillll.
Roch-che-fort
[> [> Re: season seven
speculation as to the big something -- marcus, 21:54:13
09/24/02 Tue
The First Evil is pretty much a foregone conclusion, I just wasn't
sure if that counts as a spoiler to say that, since it's like
99.999999999999999999% chance that Warren/Glory/Adam/Mayor/Dru/Master/Buffy
was the First. Yes, it did torment Spike like "Jenny"
to Angel. However, I must wonder why of course--the First wanted
to goad Angel into killing Buffy. I'm sure we all wonder what
it is torturing Spike for? HMMMMMM?
I loved this ep's going back to the roots of the show(even before
the master saying "back to the beginning")-Halfrek's
mentioning of the "Old Ones," going to back to (the
brand new) Sunnydale High, and the mentioning of the Hellmouth.
I always thought they didn't do enough with the Hellmouth and
that it has so much potential and so much to be revealed about
it. I believe it has been underused, and was trivialized by the
episode "Doomed" in Season 4--the was they just casually
tossed it back in. Actually, I feel conflicted--I am glad that
the Hellmouth is brought back in "The Zeppo" and "Doomed,"
however not enough was made of it in either of those ep's (and
yes, I realzie "The Zeppo" was a parody of the show).
Anyway, the fact that there was a blatant mentioning of the Hellmouth
indicates that this season, something is going down at everyone's
favoirite dimensional portal (involving the First) and it's important
and to be taken serioulsly (unlike the one episode appearances
of the Sisterhood of Jhe and the Vahrall).
And maybe we will finally find out what "7-3-0" is.
On that note, when Tara and Dracula tell Buffy that Buffy doesn't
know what she really is and has no idea what's to come and that
she hasn't even begun--what does that mean? Is it foreshadowing
her death in "The Gift" or is it referencing something
even greater still to come?
[> [> [> 730 --
Dochawk, 22:24:01 09/24/02 Tue
We already know what 730. SMG in an interview stated that she
didn't understand the dream and Joss explained to her that Little
Miss Muffett was her sister Dawn, who didn't exist for another
season and that 730 was the number of days until she died.
[> [> [> Re: season
seven speculation as to the big something -- luvthistle1,
01:27:03 09/25/02 Wed
what it is torturing Spike for?
To bleed Dawn,of course. than they can open up all the hell dimensions.
[> [> And... -- grifter,
00:55:50 09/25/02 Wed
...is it just me or was Spike cowering there in exactly the same
pose that Angel was in "Amends"? He even had the same
shirt!
Gotta rewatch "Amends" on DVD sometime today...
[> [> Re: season seven
speculation as to the big something -- Darby, 06:08:59
09/25/02 Wed
The clues are there - we (and Spike) see dead people, rooms underground
with openings from above, rituals and such, everything but a dead
potted plant up in the school somewhere (did anyone notice one?).
But it was a thread here many moons ago that convinced me that
the First is a Hype Demon, patron of ad executives everywhere,
having little real power beyond manipulation. If that's true,
there should be a Bigger Bad behind the curtain.
Also, that's the classic bait-and-switch modus operandi of the
show...
[> [> [> I agree,
Darby. -- Tillow, 06:56:29 09/25/02 Wed
It's way too easy. Joss isn't going to hand us the big bad on
a plate in the first ep. He knows the fandom too well. Something
bigger is on the way.
[> [> [> [> Me
too. -- Rob, 09:11:42 09/25/02 Wed
I thought "First Evil" also, but I don't think that
that's the Big Bad. It would be way too obvious, except for viewers
who started watching after the third season. I'm not saying that
the First Evil isn't involved. I don't know pretty much anything
yet. I'm completely unspoiled this year. I agree, though, that
Joss wouldn't reveal the Big Bad at the beginning of the year
like this.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Me too. -- T_Rex,
13:30:20 09/25/02 Wed
If season 7 follows the formula for previous seasons, maybe the
First Evil is the Little Bad, which will end up aiding Buffy and
the Scoobies in their fight against the real Big Bad.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Actually. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:45:33 09/25/02
Wed
So far, have we seen any evidence that the incarnations of previous
Big Bads that Spike saw were anything other than delusions brought
on by his post resouling insanity? He could have planted the amulet
and summoned the spirits, all the while torturing himself with
these images. We've seen Spike meet Drusilla, Warren, Glory, and
Buffy. And it seems likely he might have met the Master, being
of his bloodline and all. And, when Spike first appeared in School
Hard, he said "home sweet home". Implying he had been
to Sunnydale before, during which time he may have met the Mayor.
Until further evidence presents itself, the possibility that the
so called "First Evil" was just a series of hallucinations
is a valid one.
[> I've got a theory- it
could be bunnies! -- Wizardman, 22:43:50 09/24/02 Tue
[> [> ......Or maybe
midgets! -- luvthistle1, 01:34:08 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> <cricket noise>
-- too d**m early, 06:30:25 09/25/02 Wed
Spike in Lessons
(Spoilers for Lessons) -- Silky (connected by a thread), 06:13:40
09/25/02 Wed
First time posting a new message...be kind. I love this list (above
all others -thanks Masq).
Spike's delusions were interesting because as far as we know he
never knew the Master (though Angelus and Darla may have told
him about the Master) and, unless the Scoobies told him about
the Mayor, Spike also never met the mayor. So having those characters
mixed in with the ones Spike did know was a bit interesting, if
confusing. And, looks like William is in residence - Spike's comments
about not being a fast learner, dropping his board and being caned
- sounds like a William childhood memory.
BTW - JM has curly hair (see Northern Exposure and old photos)
- don't think it's a perm.
And what about the Istanbul opener? Has another slayer been called
because Buffy did *die* again last year (despite ME's claim that
the line now runs through Faith). But, watch the part where the
girl runs past the door that closes in her face - was that Spike
behind the door? I couldn't tell (need a bigger TV).
Silky
[> Istanbul girl (spoilers,
specuations) -- Scroll, 06:36:12 09/25/02 Wed
Good catch about Spike having never met the Mayor. I don't know
if Spike has ever met the Master, but there's at least a slight
possibility since they're from the same family (the Master is
Spike's great-great-grandsire). But from what I could tell, the
Big Bads are not Spike's delusions, but spirit manifestations
like the zombie/ghost things haunting Buffy. I'm assuming a 'great
power' is drawing upon the Hellmouth to resurrect these Big Bads.
Why this power would lump Buffy in with the Big Bads is something
I haven't figured out yet - though I bet this will be addressed
later on this season.
I'm totally hooked onto the possibility that the girl being chased
(and killed?) in Istanbul is a potential Slayer - or a girl who
*was* a potential Slayer, since that girl looked too old to still
be in line to be Called. The reason I don't think she was a full
Slayer is that she didn't exhibit any super strength. If it had
been Buffy/Kendra/Faith being chased, she would've put up more
of a fight, IMHO. As for Spike being behind that door, that was
my first impression too, but I don't think it was. Just a random
guy closing his door, not helping the poor girl getting hunted
by robed assassins.
But one thing I've got to ask: Why was the girl dressed like a
Westerner? I know that Turkey is a Muslim country. Maybe I'm stereotyping
Eastern Europeans, but I'm pretty sure a native of Turkey would
not be wearing a shirt like that, and a girl probably wouldn't
be wearing pants. Am I wrong? Of course, the girl might not be
from Turkey originally. (Btw, how would you call someone from
Turkey? Turkian? Turk? *hangs head in ignorant shame*)
[> [> Re: Istanbul girl
(Spoilers for Lessons) -- Sarand, 07:30:44 09/25/02 Wed
Just to answer your question about the Istanbul girl's dress.
Turkey is pretty westernized and is constitutionally a secular
state. They are much further along the path to women's equality
than any other Muslim country. Women do have prominent positions
in government. I was there in 1997 on a tour and our guide was
a woman who always dressed in western clothes. In Istanbul, which
is pretty cosmopolitan, most of the women dress like women in
this country. You do see some women in traditional dress and there
is a fundamentalist element that would impose stricter rules if
it had the power. So far, it doesn't. And I think someone from
Turkey is referred to as a Turk.
[> [> A Turk -- CW,
07:31:18 09/25/02 Wed
You don't want to know what my old Greek girlfriend would call
them.
[> Spike, Istanbul, connections
-- shadowkat, 08:16:04 09/25/02 Wed
Thanks for posting this. Sleepy and unfocused this morning so
hopefully this will make sense.
1. Spike (yep, you're right not a perm - Marsters hair is naturally
curly see Shore Leave photos - the show uses gell to flatten it,
he was supposed to look unkept, which he did and I actually liked
it - so taste is once again a subjective thing.)
Not Delusions. That was the big bad. But what I found fascinating
is the hint that all the previous big bads including the slayer
herself is part of this big bad.
It's not literally the slayer - it's her power. The dark power
in Willow, the vengeance demon power in Anya, the vampire/demon
in William/Spike and the power in Buffy are all connected to the
dark in the earth. Buffy tells us this herself in the opening
and in the end: To Dawn she says - who has the power? Not you.
The vampire. Never forget that.
And with Spike the spiritual essence tells him - it's not about
right and wrong its about power. It's what DarkWillow said last
year - being the slayer isn't about the fighting it's about the
power.
Spike is struggling. The soul is painful. The Big Bad tells us
that he understands why Spike went after it - "to be his
own man" but says he won't be. He'll always be in the darkness
with the Big Bad - the Big Bad has always been with him. In the
same way the Big Bad has been with Anya and Willow and Buffy.
And to some degree Dawn who is the key. The BB seduced him first
in 1880 with Dru. Now he's trying to break from it - but it didn't
go the way he thought. He thought he just needed a soul.
I find the fact that we see each of the big bads scaling backwards
interesting - almost as if Joss is telling us, Buffy didn't defeat
the main evil - she just defeated its messengers or arms of it.
It's core? Is in the earth. In the Hellmouth. It's apparitions
or arms or fighters are who she's beaten: Master, Drusilla, Mayor
(an aside, I miss the Mayor - I realized last night he was truly
my favorite villain. Hope to see more of him!!), Adam (worst villain),
Glory, and finally Warren.
So why did Buffy appear last? Because Buffy and Spike have something
in common. They are connected. By their natures.
It's about the power. Where it comes from. She's the slayer with
a power to slay vampires. He's a vampire with the power to kill
slayers and humans. The power inside them?
A power both do not appear to want...(well maybe Buffy wants hers
now and Spike doesn't want his).
Spike's scenes link beautifully with Willow/Giles and Anya/Halfrek.
Willow and Giles discuss how everything is connected down to the
roots, all part of each other and how we are in the end who we
always were, who we started out as.
Big Bad says in the next few months - we'll discover who everyone
really is - and you Spike are a schmuck but you knew that.You'll
learn lessons about yourselves.
Halfrek tells Anya that everyone is there all the demons.
And Anya is on the wrong side (good side is the wrong one
this round). Also we find out Hallie is much older than 1800s,
she discussed the Crimean War (I'm no historian but I'm sure it
wasn't during the Victorian age).
Spike clearly is struggling with William, he is also struggling
with the demon in him - which is connected to the hellmouth and
big bad. He says this was always home, always belonged here -
that's the connection to hellmouth and reason everyone is there.
It's interesting the vengeance spirits try to keep Buffy from
the door Spike is behind. Why? Is it because she is interrupting
the BB's discussions with him?? It was very reminiscent of Amends.
But I'm not sure First EVIL is the right word. Remember what the
thing said: it's not about right and wrong - it's about power.
Dark power in us all.
Girl in Istanbul. Sarand is right - I've been to IStanbul too,
while most women were wearing traditional garb, many wore western
garb as well. The girl felt like a fighter to me. And the monks
reminded me of the monks shown in Season 5. It felt like a ritual.
I too thought the man behind the door was Spike (but that was
a mislead - I rewound it three times and paused - nope not him).
Istanbul is a place of power mystically. Mohammad's relics are
housed there.
It is visited by many Muslims for pilgrimage. It also feels like
a place out of a fairy tale and goes back to the Biblical age.
So the link is an interesting one.
I think there is a definite link betwee Anya, Willow, Spike
this year. All three are caught between the FoD and PTB.
All three appear to be in conflict in Lessons. Anya struggling
to be a vengeance demon and not wanting to. (Loved the frog joke
- you turned him into someone French. LOL!) Willow wishing she
could just be drained, wishing to be punished or turned back the
way she was before. Spike similarly wanting to go back, to dig
the soul out or revert back to as he was before. All uncertain
who they are at the core and all terrified to find out.
Dawn/Xander/Buffy on the other hand do not have this problem.
They know who they are or at least appear to. Confident. Secure.
Xander has money and a career he enjoys and the constant destruction
of the school will bring in more (yippee!), Dawn is being trained
by big sis, found some co-horts and has a cell phone, Buffy got
a job and if her sister wasn't going to hellmouth high? Life would
be good. Methinks these guys are in for a fall...or a rude awakening,
but then I've been watching WhedonTV too long.;-)
Okay that's all must work now...sigh. SK
[> [> Istanbul (Not Constantinople)
-- cjl, 08:25:26 09/25/02 Wed
Remember, too, Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) was the center
of the Byzantine Empire, and the seat of the Eastern wing of the
Catholic Church when it got split off from Rome.
Tie in to the Knights of Byzantium? The monks from S5 (followers
of the order of Dagon and keepers of the Key)?
Who the heck knows? Maybe Joss just picked Istanbul because the
locale sounded exotic and COOL. Wouldn't be the first time...
[> [> [> Re: Istanbul
(Not Constantinople) -- Caroline, 11:50:18 09/25/02 Wed
I would like to make the point that orthodoxy is NOT the eastern
branch of the catholic church ---- no, no, no! The autocephalous
(self-governing) Orthodox churches (there are many) are not part
of Catholicism. There was a time, prior to 1063, when all the
churches, east and west, were self-governing but had the same
doctrine, which was basically decided on in ecumenical councils.
Due to political issues and doctrinal issues there was a schism
between the Pope in Rome and the eastern churches. One important
issue is the insertion of the filioque ('and from the son') into
the Creed, in the bit about the Holy Spirit proceding from the
father 'and from the son'. This insertion was not agreed to in
an ecumenical council but rather just sprang into use in Rome
and the German states (Holy Roman Empire) at that time. Another
issue was the supremacy of the Pope over the other Bishops or
Patriarchs of Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople etc. The Orthodox
patriarchs see themselves as equal and not infallible (only God
is) and were unwilling to accept their Roman brother elevating
himself above them. When the bull of excommunication was placed
on the altar at Sancta Sophia in Constantinople by Roman cardinals
in the 1060s, the churches parted ways for many years and despite
dialogue, are nowhere near resolving their differences. This is
in part due to the many additions to doctrine that the catholics
have introduced in the last millenium as well as different interpretations
of scripture as applied to modern problems.
[> [> [> [> Excellent
work, Caroline! Never knew all the details... -- cjl, 12:05:10
09/25/02 Wed
I think I was referring to the Catholic Church before the 11th
century split-off--but said it badly. Nevertheless, I found the
details fascinating, as the ramifications of that split are still
being felt today.
Getting back to BUFFY, isn't it interesting that the Order of
Deagon (the keepers of the Key) was founded at about the time
of bull of excommunication? Or am I reading way, WAY too much
into all this?
[> [> [> [> [>
When was Order of Dagon established? -- Scroll, 13:01:29
09/25/02 Wed
I don't remember ever hearing any dates for when the Order of
Dagon was established, or when the Knights of Byzantium were established,
either. Can you point me to the right episode?
Yeah, I definitely agree that Joss is leaving open the possibility
of drawing in these two groups (as well as the Watchers Council).
If Joss decides to explore Dawn's key powers, it would make sense
that the OoD and KoB are brought up again.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Excellent work, Caroline! Never knew all the details...
-- Corwin of Amber, 13:03:29 09/25/02 Wed
I would like to add that there are Orthodox churches that later
split off and rejoined Catholicism. They have slightly different
rituals, and are contained within Catholicism as seperate Rites.
For instance, there is the Byzantine Rite, which is almost identical
to the Orthodox version. The Knights of Byzantium could still
conceivably be a Catholic order, though I doubt the Order of Dagon,
ever would be, given that Dagon is mentioned as a demon in the
Bible.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I think it was mentioned in Giles' diary entries in "Blood
Ties"... -- cjl, 13:37:07 09/25/02 Wed
...that Dagon (not the demon, I believe) established the order
in the late 11th or early 12th century. I'm guessing the KoB started
on their quest for the Key at about the same time. This ties into
my theory that the CoW was the group custodian of the Key up until
it was stolen by the nascent order, causing nervous members of
the Eastern Church to sponsor a holy quest to recover it. It also
makes sense that the Order holed up in what is now the Czech Republic
(practically next door) when Constantinople fell to the Muslims
in the 1490s.
(And we are probably sooooooo overthinking this. But it's fun,
isn't it?)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Found the passage. ("Blood Ties" excerpt
thanx to Psyche) -- cjl, 13:52:05 09/25/02 Wed
Dawn walks confidently to the counter, puts down the chocolates
and goes behind the counter.
DAWN: I don't want the book. Just what's inside. I think it was
Giles' notes. (Shines the flashlight around as Spike examines
the stuff on the counter) He was standing here, and when I turned
around it was gone.
She begins feeling under the counter. Spike takes something off
the counter and puts it in his pocket.
Dawn finds the hidden drawer and pulls it open, revealing the
book. She smiles in triumph.
Cut to later.
SPIKE: Where did he learn to write so bloody small, from a fruit
fly?
We see Dawn and Spike sitting on the floor, three candles lit
in front of them. Dawn reading the book. Spike's cigarette is
mostly ash.
DAWN: Wait, here's something. Uh, "Tarnis, 12th century.
One of the founders of the monks of the order of Dagon."
(Spike stands up) "Their sole purpose appears to have been
as protectors of the key."
SPIKE: (scoffs) Brown-robe types are always protecting something.
It's the only way they can justify giving up girls. (He looks
around, spots Olaf's hammer from "Triangle" in a display
case) Hey! Troll hammer.
Spike tries to pick it up but it's too heavy. It falls to the
floor with a clang. He glances over to see if Dawn noticed. She
has her back to him.
SPIKE: Didn't go with my stuff anyway.
He continues looking around at the shelves, looking bored, as
Dawn reads.
DAWN: "The key is not directly described in any known literature,
but all research indicates an energy matrix vibrating at a dimensional
frequency beyond normal human perception. Only those outside reality
can see the key's true nature." (shakes head) Outside reality.
What's that mean?
SPIKE: Mm. Second-sight blokes, mostly. (Puts out his cigarette
in an item on the shelf) Or even just your run-of-the-mill lunatics.
He resumes his seat beside Dawn as she begins to get an expression
of revelation.
Flash to hospital in "Listening to Fear."
CRAZY SECURITY GUARD: There! (points at a scared Dawn) There's
no one in there.
Flash to outside magic shop in "The Real Me."
CRAZY GUY: I know what you are.
Back to Dawn looking thoughtful.
SPIKE: What else does it say about this key? Is it made out of
gold? Maybe we can hock it, split the take.
DAWN: Um, (reads) "The key is also susceptible to necromanced
animal detection, particularly those of canine or serpent construct."
Flash to the snake creature slithering across the floor in "Shadow."
Dawn screaming as it rears up above her. The creature's eyes flashing
red.
Back to Dawn holding the book, pondering. Spike reaches over and
takes the book from her.
SPIKE: (frowns at book) "The monks possessed the ability
to transform energy, bend reality." Blah, blah, blah. (looks
at Dawn) Good lord, Giles writes as dull as he talks, doesn't
he? (back to book) "They started work. But the Council ...
has suggested ... to us that they were interrupted. Presumably
by ... Glory." (Dawn continues staring into the distance
as she listens) "They obviously did manage to accomplish
the taste..." (looks closer) "accomplish the task. They
had to be certain the Slayer would protect it with her life. So
they sent the key to her ... in human form. In the form of a sister."
Zoom in on Dawn's shocked expression.
Spike frowns, looks over at her.
SPIKE: Huh! I guess that's you, nibblet.
Shot of Dawn continuing to react. Blackout.
[> [> got the power
-- ponygirl, 08:44:33 09/25/02 Wed
Yes, our Scoobies do seem to have the power right now (excluding
possibly Dawn), even if they don't want it like Willow and Anya.
But Joss has always been about turning traditional power structures
on their head, giving power to the least likely person - the blonde
girl who gets killed in horror movies, the nerds everyone picks
on in high school. Well, now the blonde girl is the strongest
killer in the land, the one nerd is in a suit and driving a luxury
sedan, and the other is feared by her teachers. If we move beyond
good and evil as the Mighty Morphin' Bad suggests and look at
power the Scoobies are it. The trouble with power structures is
that there are always have-nots. For a long time that was the
Scoobs, but now they are the authority. And there's always somebody
wanting to challenge that.
Oh, and I loved Spike's hair too!
[> [> Skat? did you read
my post on connections further down? -- neaux, 08:49:35
09/25/02 Wed
you added on quite nicely.. but I have some minor information
that would work together with yours for a nice post.
[> [> [> No...couldn't
find it. Where? -- shadowkat, 08:53:18 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Its
under Humanis' Lesson Post.. entitled the Audience's lessons
-- neaux, 09:13:47 09/25/02 Wed
regardless.. I talk about the root system and connections to the
earth... and point out how the Vampie in the first scene is STUCK
on a ROOT.. and the connection of the demon world..
and then the connections of Dawn Buffy and Xander through cellular
magic..
still I think since you are sooooo good about kickass essays..
that you could work up a little mojo using bits of my info ^_^!!
[> [> [> [> [>
Yeah, and also Spike's "dark roots"! -- Scroll,
09:26:00 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
I found it..wrote another long rambling post below it --
shadowkat, 09:33:10 09/25/02 Wed
Thanks for the compliment. But I think my work environment is
sucking my mogo out like an energy vampire....so incoherent ramblings
seem to be the best i can do.
Roots...souls seem to be connected to each other as roots right?
And everything that happened in Lessons seemed to be about the
earth, underground, falling through a floor or feeling power through
an underground wall or the dirt.
Connects to Grave - where Willow pulled the power from Earth to
destroy it and Spike was given a soul by cave dwelling demon like
creature - in the earth.
see rambling...sigh.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I found it..wrote another long rambling post below
it -- alcibiades, 10:25:07 09/25/02 Wed
Connects to Grave - where Willow pulled the power from Earth
to destroy it and Spike was given a soul by cave dwelling demon
like creature - in the earth.
And Buffy and Dawn were forced literally to fight roots.
[> [> Re: Spike, Istanbul,
connections -- Arethusa, 08:59:12 09/25/02 Wed
Buffy also had power over Spike, and was always his adversary,
even as a lover. She and Dru both tormented him, at least in his
mind.
Crimean War-1854-1856-and was partially a fight over Constantinople.
(Not Istanbul, and now I'll never get that tune out of my head!)
So Halfrek isn't Cecily. She was already a Vengen-er-Justice Demon
when Cecily was a baby or unborn.
[> [> [> Re: Spike,
Istanbul, connections -- shadowkat, 09:59:51 09/25/02 Wed
Thanks for the dates. Istanbul and Constantinople are the same,
wasn't sure from your post if you knew that.
I think the Crimean War actually is the reason the name got changed
- when the Eastern Orthodox Church got pushed out of power and
the Islams took down all the Christian relics, replacing them
with Muslim. There's a lovely church there that dates back to
when it was Constantinople.
Crimean War interesting mention. Wonder if there is a link to
Istantibul. Didn't Angel the Series mention something about a
dark beast rising from the Middle East near Turkey in 2003? (It
was in Shanshu in LA I think).
I am willing to bet anyone on this board that those big bads are
not delusions of Spike not part of Spike or
in Spike's head. They are the Big Bad and they will be seen by
others. The big Bad is a shifter. With no true form that we no
of - hence the theme - all in our true form, our true self - and
a big bad that ironically wears the masks of others. The only
reason Spike was seeing it was wear Spike was located, and he
seems to oddly enough be a prisoner there maybe by his own design??
One of the zombies said - "told you he'd get out" when
Buffy got the door they kept trying to keep her from open. No
doesn't feel entirely right. But my gut tells me that the BB was
telling Spike that he was still connected to it - in much the
same way First Evil told Angel. Also further proof not in Spike's
head - Master and the Mayor were featured.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Spike, Istanbul, connections -- Arethusa, 10:42:06 09/25/02
Wed
Yes, the website I visited pointed that out. The song "Istanbul,
Not Constantinople" is what I was joking about.
Is this the quote you meant? It's from To Shanshu in LA.
Cordelia's apartment - day. Cordelia is in the kitchen fixing
a sandwich. Goes to the fridge. Pan to Wesley sitting at the living
room table, the scroll and books spread out around him. Angel
is sitting on a chest against the wall.
Wesley: "Here is something."
Angel: "What is it?"
Wesley: "The beast of Amalfie, a razor toothed six-eyed harbinger
of death. No, wait, that's due to arise in 2003 in Reseda."
A source of great personal stregnth and power is knowing (and
accepting) who you are. Buffy is starting to show that, and Spike
must learn it. I wonder if masks will become an important part
of this season-so many people will need to decide who they are
this year.
quote by psyche
[> [> [> [> Re:
Spike, Istanbul, connections - Friendly suggestion -- Sarand,
10:42:20 09/25/02 Wed
Shadowkat, can I make a friendly suggestion that you not discuss
history? ;) I like all your other essays on Buffy but I'm thinking
you suck at history. Istanbul and Turkey were Muslim long before
the 19th century. I don't know when exactly it became the home
of the Ottoman Empire but I'm guessing the 1600s. At least by
1492 Istanbul (don't remember when the name change was) was Muslim;
when the Jews were expelled from Spain, Turkey was one of the
few or maybe the only country that invited Jews to come there.
I found that an interesting anecdote in the history of Jews and
Muslims. The Crimean War was between Russia and England and had
nothing to do with the fall of Byzantium which occurred centuries
earlier, when the Muslims replaced Christian relics with Muslim
ones and converted churches to mosques. Okay, now some other history
major can correct me! LOL! But the choice of Istanbul for the
opening scene is still an interesting one, based on the city's
unique history.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Spike, Istanbul, connections - Friendly suggestion
-- shadowkat, 11:15:38 09/25/02 Wed
Not suck just can't remember any of it. Got my best grades in
history - just happened to study it ohhh 20 years ago.
Actually I'm bad at dates - can't remember them at all. Now if
you asked me the name of some obscure literary figure
or the plot of a novel I read 20 years ago - I could repeat
it verbatim. But dates confuse me. I have all this stuff in a
book at home...anyone feel energetic enough to do a search on
google and give us info on Byzantine and Crimean War and Constantinople???
Oh and these posts aren't essays (not to be confused with my essays!!)...they
are rambling stream of consciousness impressions, which are not
meant to be taken as truth and are no doubt filled with tons of
mistakes as such posts often are.
Notice I asked for history help? Which you kindly took me up on
- much obliged.
And made all sort of qualifying statements. (sigh)Which elicited
tons of cool information that no one seemed to be supplying on
their own. (Although they may have and I missed it.)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Actually ignore the above -- shadowkat, 11:55:09
09/25/02 Wed
You're right - shouldn't discuss something know very little about.
Note to self edit out all historical references along with snarky
comments before posting.
(Been doing very well on editing out snarky character bashing
comments, not so well on bad historical/academic references...)
So my apologies to any and all who were offended by my horrible
historical references. Please just ignore them.
I think Joss Whedon may be better at dates and math than I am.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Actually ignore the above -- Sarand, 12:28:48
09/25/02 Wed
Oh, I wasn't offended. I hope you weren't. I was just tweaking
you a bit. Let me add that I always look forward to your posts
because you have very insightful things to say about the show
and the characters.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Nosofa's business but the Ottomans -- fresne, 12:54:46
09/25/02 Wed
Well, not as authoritative as Google, however, Istanbul not Constantinople.
Well, it really depends who you are for when the name changed.
When the Ottoman Turks conquered it in I believe 1492 (Columbus
sailed the Ocean blue), which was the final end of the Easter
Roman Empire (the Byzantines), the Ottomans changed the name to
Istanbul. However, many Greeks still called it Constantinople
until 1930, lets just say there was a lot of tension there and
move along.
The Crimean war was a conflict between Russia (under the reign
of one of the Nicholasí, aka the Policeman of Europe,)
and the Ottoman Empire (the Turks), England, France, and I believe
Piedmont (in Italy).
It was not so much for control of the city of Istanbul, although
Iím sure the Russianís would have liked what they
could get, but for control of the Crimean region around the Black
Sea. Actually, the entire area around the Black Sea (Crimea, Baltics,
etc.) was a hot bed of international intrigue and politics throughout
the er, century, millennium, for a very long time.
Basically, Russia wanted to expand south so they could get more
warm water sea ports (practically an obsession for the landlocked-ish
country) and well, land. The Ottoman Empire, which controlled
the region at the time, didnít want to loose yet more territory.
However, they were known as the Weak Man of Europe for a reason.
Their army was not the best equipped, although plenty of troops.
England supported the Ottomans for a variety of political reasons
many of which had something to do with routes to India. The French,
under Napolean III, were looking to reestablish themselves as
a military power in Europe and remember the glory days of Napoleon
I. The Piedmonts were on a nationalistic agenda to promote a unified
Italy and the Crimean war tied into that agenda.
And Iíll just throw in there that there was some very interesting
alternate tensions going on in that at the time both the Russian
czars and the Ottomans ruled over diverse ethnic groups. Both
the Russians and the Ottomans were trying to suppress nationalistic
(language, cultural, and ethnic based) sentiments within their
empires so that the center would hold together.
Thatís how Nicholas the something something got the name
the Policeman of Europe. Anytime any sort of nationalistic fruhaha
occurred, heíd swoop in and suppress it. Further confused
by Russiaís schitzoid desire to increase influence in the
Baltics based on Slavic nationalism. Russia as a Big Brother Slav
government would have liked to have eased control away from the
Austrian (later Austro Hungarian) empire and increased Russian
influence. However, the Austrians were also the Russianís
allies and one of the reasons the Russians were expanding into
the Crimea and not the Baltics were a series of ìCut that
out, weíre buddiesî treaties with Austria. Compare
Russian and the Ottomanís reasoning with the French and
the Piedmontís who were fighting in the same war to rattle
the nationalistic saber exactly along language lines. Also, one
of the regions that the Austrians controlled was an Italian speaking
region.
Boiling down to, history is hopelessly complex, as Willow said
everything is connected.
However, as others have commented, Knights of Byzantium, Istanbul
not Constantinople, Man made into a Frog, Crimean War, random
English characters. They just need to go to Piedmont cemetery
and Iíll be happy. Note: some of these examples may be
reaching. Maybe. Might be. Perhaps.
Convulsions of joy over New episode!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> To err is human, to forgive divan -- SpikeMom, 14:37:59
09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Spike, Istanbul, connections - Friendly suggestion
-- Caroline, 12:01:02 09/25/02 Wed
You've got your dates right. The Ottomans (or Omani as they're
more properly known) were beating down the doors of the Byzantines
in Constantinople for many years before the city finally succumbed
in 1492. The Muslim empires have traditionally had a much greater
level of tolerance for Jews, with none of the pogroms or racism
seen in Europe. Jews and Christians were treated rather well under
Muslim rule - they were advisers to princes and sultans and caliphs,
and they contribued greatly to intellectual life in Muslim Spain
and the rest of the Arab and Muslim empires. 1492 saw the Muslims
come to power in modern-day Turkey, with a name change to Instanbul
and the conversion of Sancta Sophia (church of the Holy Wisdom)
converted into a mosque. However, many churches under Ottoman
rule were left alone and there are still thriving Christian communities
in what was the Ottoman empire.
As for the Crimean War, I'm sure that was in the mid-1850s (I
want to say 1854-56) and was between England and Russia. And you're
right, it has nothing to do with Byzantium.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Dates and places -- Sophist, 09:25:19 09/26/02
Thu
Ok, let's straighten this all out:
The original name of the city was Byzantium. It changed to Constantinople
after the Emperor Constantine made it the capital of the Eastern
Roman Empire (ca. 325 CE). The Turks conquered the last remnants
of the Byzantine empire, including Constantinople, in 1453, not
1492. The name Istanbul is, ironically, of Greek origin. It comes
from the Greek phrase "is ten polen" meaning "to
the city" (like The City when used by those in the Bay Area
to refer to San Francisco). The Turkish speaking conquerors heard
the Greeks use that phrase in connection with the capital and
thought it was the actual name.
[> [> [> [> Concur
and no bet (***Spoily ep 7.1***) w/exclamation mark abuse
-- pr10n, 14:32:36 09/25/02 Wed
Others will begin seeing the Evil!Shapeshifting!Entity as SK says
-- foreshadowed by the bathroom scene with Dawn and Kit, where
we learn Kit is hiding from the ghosts. I was surprised that Kit
saw the ghosts, thinking it was a Summers thing (Whoo hoo ME spookiness!).
Also, a second Harry Potter reference in that scene, after Willow
says Giles went all "Dumbledore" -- it's the old Campbellian
"hiding in the girls' bathroom/ghosts in the bathroom"
motif.
[> [> [> [> [>
Let's not forget. . . (Harry Potter Book 1 Spoilers) --
Finn Mac Cool, 17:31:36 09/25/02 Wed
The third Harry Potter reference. The last lines of Lessons are:
"It's not about right. It's not about wrong. It's about power."
Compare this to the little rant given by Professor Quirrel/Voldemort
near the end of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone:
"There is no good and no evil. There is simply power."
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [tips hat] -- pr10n, 23:11:29 09/25/02 Wed
[> [> trivia point: Crimean
War was 1854-56 -- tim, 09:29:45 09/25/02 Wed
That pre-dates William's turning by a good 25 years. But, of course,
Joss sucks at math. It could be his history grades weren't so
hot, either.
--th
[> [> [> Re: trivia
point: Crimean War was 1854-56 -- Sarand, 10:23:42 09/25/02
Wed
Yeah, I remembered it as the 1850s as well. I thought it showed
that Hallie is not Cecily but, as you say, Joss sucks at math
and dates. Still, I suspect the look of recognition between Spike
and Hallie in OAFA was just the writers funnin' with us.
[> [> [> [> Is
Hallie Cecily? -- alcibiades, 11:12:58 09/25/02 Wed
Or William could have been one of the men that Hallie was referring
to when she said:
HALFREK
I guess the message got garbled. You know how it is, half the
time I have no idea if I'm maiming the right guy.
[> [> [> [> [>
Could it be that Cecily cursed William , making him love's
bitca? -- Arethusa, enjoying the guessing game, 12:10:30
09/25/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Halfrek/Cecily and William/Spike theory -- shadowkat,
12:26:38 09/25/02 Wed
After the Anya/Hallie talk it occurred to me that there are three
possibilities:
1. Spike/Hallie met each other as demons.
2. They don't know each other and the writers were playing games
and that remark was dumped. They do dump things on occassion.
3. Halfrek was Cecily but William thought she was human much as
Cordelia thought Anyanka was. Anya had pseudonyme
and so did Hallie. Hallie didn't curse him. He just was unlucky
enough to be taken with a vengeance demon.
And Hallie saw him as beneath her because he was human and she's
a demon and all humans are beneath her. Now that he's a vampire,
he may actually have raised in status.
But until the writers give me more information? I'm assuming #2.
More info would be ensouled Spike seeing Hallie. If he reacts
then we know they weren't funning.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Number three sounds very intriguing. -- CW,
14:13:59 09/25/02 Wed
Writer's do dump things, but very little seems to be forgotten
on BtVS.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Marti has admitted that Hallie = Cecily in an interview
-- Dochawk, 22:28:16 09/25/02 Wed
of course, writers lie, but she said it in such a way as to believe
her
[> [> [> [> [>
Woops-meant Halfrek, not Cecily -- Arethusa, 12:11:54
09/25/02 Wed
[> [> Checkpoint connections?
-- Scroll, 09:52:37 09/25/02 Wed
So maybe there's a connection between whatever it is that Anya
did during the Crimean War and the girl in Istanbul? At first
I thought Istanbul was just a random city Joss picked as the setting
for this girl to be killed, but now I wonder if there's a deeper
connection between Istanbul/Constantinople, the Knights of Byzantium,
and Anyanka's vengence gig.
The reason why I think the Knights of Byzantium, as well as the
Watchers Council, will play a part in this coming season: all
the references to "Checkpoint", which introduced the
KoB and reintroduced the WC.
Checkpoint
BUFFY: I've had a lot of people talking at me the last
few days. Everyone just lining up to tell me how unimportant I
am. And I've finally figured out why. (looks Travers in the eye)
Power. I have it. They don't. This bothers them. (puts coat on
chair) Glory ... came to my home today.
GILES: (alarmed) Buffy, are you-
BUFFY: Just to talk. (resumes pacing) She told me I'm a bug, I'm
a flea, she could squash me in a second. (stops, looks at Travers
again) Only she didn't. She came into my home, and we talked.
We had what in her warped brain probably passes for a civilized
conversation. Why? (pauses) Because she needs something from me.
Because I have power over her.
Lessons
BUFFY: It's about power. Who's got it. Who knows how to
use it.
In "Lessons", Willow talks about how the coven witches
seem afraid that she'll turn them into "bangers and mash".
In "Checkpoint", Xander says, "Because if they
deport him [Giles], they're not just destroying his career, they're
condemning the man to a lifetime diet of blood sausage, bangers,
and mash."
And of course "Checkpoint" is the episode that we learn
that Glory isn't a demon, but a god. Here's something so powerful
that Buffy can't fight it, a being that she can't even really
conceive. A god so old that she predates the written word. Sounds
kinda like going back to the very very beginning, "Before
the Bang, before the Word..."
I think everyone who says that the First Evil probably won't be
the Big Bad might be right, since Joss always does his bait-and-switch.
However, I think the concept of the Key, and the Key's relationship
with the First Evil, with the PTB, and with the source of the
Slayer's power will definitely be discussed. At least, I'm keeping
my fingers crossed that it will.
I see plenty of "Restless" connections as well, but
wanted to point out "Checkpoint" since no one else has
yet.
Scroll
[> [> [> Re: Checkpoint
connections? -- shadowkat, 10:07:34 09/25/02 Wed
Good points. It is about power and I think it has more to do with
the beginning of slayers and vampires. It's not the First Evil.
It's something else.
Also The Byzantine Empire I think encompassed Istanbul.
I think The Byzantine period was when Istanbul was Constantinople.
The city used to be Muslim and part of the Ottoman Empire.
Then it got conquered and became Constantinople part of the Byzantine
Empire and home of Eastern Orthodox branch of Catholic Church.
(This is the Branch founded I think by St. Paul - but I may be
wrong.) Damn this is just bits and pieces of history in my memory,
not sure if its right.
Anyways I think they are connected.
I also think Buffy may have more power than she knows, she's just
never dug into it. Perhaps we're finally to find out the origin
of the slayer and what a slayer truly is??
And my gut tells me that Spike may be the key to discovering that
at least partially.
[> [> [> [> Uh,
History alert! and Dracula -- alcibiades, 11:56:28 09/25/02
Wed
Constantinople became Muslim in 1453 when it was conquered, not
incidentally to our story, by Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror. He
founded the Ottoman Empire.
I say not incidentally since Dracula became known as Vlad the
Impaler and acquired his bloodthirsty reputation by fighting Mehmet
the Conqueror.
And in our story, Dracula is the one to get Buffy interested in
learning her lessons about the fact that Slayers and Vampires
are kindred.
Dracula:
They're here. They will not find us. We are alone. AlwaysÖ
alone.
He has reached her. Runs his hand along her neck under her hair.
He is genuinely enraptured by her.
DRACULA
There is so much I have to teach you. About your history, your
powerÖWhat your body is capable ofÖ
***
But Buffy hasn't learned her lessons, the ones she asked Giles
for at the beginning of Season 5:
BUFFY Hunting. That's what Dracula called it, and he was right.
He understood my POWER, better than I do. He saw darkness in it.
(then/heartfelt)
I need to know more. About where I come from. About the other
slayers. Maybe if I learn to control this thing - maybe I could
even be better, strongerÖ But I'm scared. It's gonna be hard,
and I can't do itÖ without you.
(then)
I need your help. I need you to be my watcher again.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Uh, History alert! and Dracula -- shadowkat, 12:11:13
09/25/02 Wed
First - a heartfelt thanks for supplying the information I was
doing a horrible job of asking for. I knew I remembered a connection
but I'm so horrible about remembering dates.
I do however remember Vlad (who is played in the miniseries about
Vlad's life which discusses in explicit detail what you mention
and in Btvs by the exact same actor - just a trivia mention. See
I can remember that sort of detail.)
I think Buffy got distracted by Dawn. She was interested in pursueing
that, but Dawn showed up. She tried to pursue it a little again
with Spike in Fool For Love and he gave her some good pointers
but they confused her and she was distracted again by family,
this time her Mom's illness.
Whenever Buffy has tried to learn more about the slayer part of
herself - real life or the world of Mom, Sis, Job, Money interupts
her. As she put it to Cordy once - imagine having your life made
up of oil, water, and some other substance that doesn't combine
- she has to separate them.
OR juggle them constantly. Hence the juggling in Hells Bells.
Buffy is a juggler by profession. Juggling two identities - the
real girl mask, the slayer. Juggling
three worlds: student, daughter, slayer. To mom, single gal, slayer.
Makes it difficult for a woman/girl to find her focus.
I think she's going to learn more about the slayer and who she
is in the next few months.
And thanks for bringing up Dracula. Isn't it interesting that
Dracula and the Tara Guide echo each other : You don't know what
you are, what's to come, you've only begun?
(Also this is just spec but I'm wondering if we might see a reappearence
of the Tara Guide from Restless??)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Lessons and FFL -- alcibiades, 12:32:33 09/25/02
Wed
She tried to pursue it a little again with Spike in
Fool For Love
And isn't it interesting that Buffy's lesson to Dawn had definite
overtones of Spike's lesson the first, etc. to Buffy in FFL.
[> [> [> [> [>
Giles and the Watchers -- Scroll, 12:33:06 09/25/02
Wed
So do you think this might be a hint that the Watchers will make
a reappearance? After all, the last time Buffy had to face her
darker nature, she felt the need for some guidance. Now she is
guiding Dawn, and Giles is guiding Willow. Still, I hope to see
Buffy really coming to terms with the Slayers and Watchers who've
come before her. This is an interesting plot point, IMHO, that
never really seems to get fleshed out.
[> [> [> Re: Checkpoint
connections? -- Arethusa, 10:22:07 09/25/02 Wed
(Crazy theory alert.) Could the Buffyverse have been some hell
dimension like Pylea, belonging to demons but shared with human
"cows" until the demons are cast out? And this would
have been forgotten long before the big bang theory, and even
the Bible. The original source of power on or in the earth-of
the earth-and how it was used and misused by the world's earliest
inhabitants-its first gods and demons-might be the path this season
will explore.
[> O/T and Shameless Plug:
They Might Be Giants 2-CD anthology out now! -- cjl, 14:19:49
09/25/02 Wed
THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS: "Dial-a-Song" (Warner/Rhino)
Featuring "Boss of Me" (the Grammy-winning smash hit
theme from "Malcolm in the Middle"), the hilarious "Dr.
Evil" theme from "The Spy Who Shagged Me," oddball
classics like "Birdhouse in Your Soul," "Ana Ng,"
"Bangs," "I Palindrome I," "Particle
Man," and...
"Istanbul (Not Constantinople)"
52 songs worth of goofy fun (and educational too!).
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