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A New Dawn In Sunnydale? -- White Avenger, 09:17:09 10/03/02 Thu

Season Seven opens with Buffy training Dawn in the ancient art of slaying vampires. Episode two has Dawn promising Spike, her one-time friend and protector, "If you hurt my sister, you'll wake up on fire!" Hardly the whining, crying pain in the aspiration she was last year. Maybe she has hopes of growing up into a useful adult yet, but I still don't see her as Slayer material.

[> Spoilers for 7.1 and 7.2 above -- Scroll, 09:59:06 10/03/02 Thu

[> Re: A New Dawn In Sunnydale? -- ZachsMind, 10:51:04 10/03/02 Thu

I've always felt that Dawn had potential, but just needed a chance to grow up and accept the fact that though her origins are far from normal, she can still be a lovable character. It's nice to see some people are now willing to give her another chance. She upset things when she arrived on the scene in season five. Some people have trouble forgiving that, but I don't fault the character. I do fault the writers for having her whine too much. I think they've learned their lesson and with the past couple episodes we're getting a glimpse that the writers are finally pointing Dawn in the right direction.

Maybe someday I won't be so alone in my appreciation of the character. =)

[> [> Re: A New Dawn In Sunnydale? -- Thomas the Skeptic, 11:24:52 10/03/02 Thu

You're not as alone as you might think! When I asked the board a few weeks ago if anyone besides me would like to see Dawn become a Slayer the favorable responses were suprisingly gratifying. There are quite a few more of us Dawnie fans out there than popular wisdom would lead you to believe!

[> [> [> Dawn's not the next Slayer, but... -- ZachsMind, 12:24:59 10/03/02 Thu

I don't wanna see Dawn become a Slayer. That'd be corny. However, I believe there's more to being The Key than we've been led to believe, and I don't think she's the only one. I'd like to see Whedon's writers explore more the fact that Dawn is flesh & blood yes but simultaneously she's a little green glowing orb of energy. That energy could manifest itself in a number of ways.

[> [> [> [> Re: Dawn's not the next Slayer, but... -- White Avenger, 15:22:45 10/03/02 Thu

I completely agree that Dawn has no need to be the Slayer if her potential as the Key is ever developed. It would, in fact, turn out to be possibly counter-productive to the show. Dawn's powers should, or perhaps COULD would be a better term, developed to in some way replace the gap left by Tara's loss (there was always two teams, the fighters, Buffy and current boyfriend, and the magicians, Willow and Tara. Without Tara, Willow's magic seems to have no focus or control. Dawn could fill in here, providing balance for Willow's mystic power the way Tara did).
Another character I would like to see developed more is Clem. We know almost nothing about him other than that he is Spike's kitten poker playing friend and seems to be friendly towords humans. There are many story possibilities there.

Great Gobs of Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts, girl!! & response to Honorificus [spoiled, of course] -- LittleBite, 15:35:45 10/03/02 Thu

I would have responded earlier but sometimes the forces of evil simply collide. Instead of showing the only show featuring our kind, my channel carried baseball. Yankees, no less. I did talk to Mr. Applegate about it but he said that, unfortunately, there was nothing he could do about it, having entered into a prior agreement with them. Humph.

Shades of Hades, so much evil being totally subverted and you're talking about fashion and hair? Great Methuselah, what is happening to the demons of today? Honor, dear, look up from all the fawning around your feet and focus!

First, may I just say it and get it over with Ö Anyanka, Anyanka, Anyanka Ö what has gotten into her? I've never seen such a poor performance from a vengeance demon before. She's finally pulling herself together after that little intervention from Halfrek, looking good and getting sassy again. And then what happens? Xander shows up with the sorry dregs of the remaining Scooby gang [does it count as a gang when there's only two members?], and learns that she is [gasp!!] doing her job. Has he bothered to find out how she is? No, we learn, he hasn't talked to her, just seen her once or twice at the Bronze. So why would she reverse the wish she granted? For him? For his 'approval'? Oh, please. I say get this man away from our girl. She did such a wonderful job of embellishing the wish. Making the ex-boyfriend into a snake demon, instead of just a worm. We don't even know what fool's argument was used to sway her. Or why she would listen to it. All I can hope is that this a temporary misstep on her way to condemning herself again.

And that lovely snake. Who didn't just smile at that beautiful quadruple set of teeth. My, she created a strong one, didn't she? Too bad he didn't have the chance to wreak greater havoc before Anyanka was convinced to restore him. Although, one did have to appreciate the irony of restoring him just in time for him to be skewered. And who doesn't enjoy a good skewering these days?

And speaking of that skewering, has no one lodged a protest with the Overseers about Lurky? We have a very high profile vampire who had been neutered by the meddling Initiative, and he seeks to rid himself of this dilemma by seeking out Lurky. And what does he do? Does he restore our boy to 'what he once was'? No, he takes it upon himself to not only not remove or disable that fool chip, but he gives our boy a soul?? And we have such a battle going on inside him as his better nature attempts to gain ascendancy over the horror of the soul. Will no one help him? Anyanka seemed ready to reveal this new degradation to everyone and the only way he could keep this shame private was by starting a fight with her. And what a lovely fight it was, with both Anyanka and Spike showing their true faces to the world. Until that interfering little busybody has to stick her nose in it.

Which brings me to our nemesis, the infamous Buffy. It seems as though the champion has recovered from that lovely funk she was in all last year. I know I was not the only one who enjoyed her distraction, giving so many of us greater scope for playing near the Hellmouth. I can only hope she will be kept so busy with all the petty little problems human teenagers think are so important. If her function is to listen while they whine at her I almost feel sorry for her. Almost.

Our little Dawnie is showing some potential, though. Misdirected though it was, she was showing some strong tendencies toward a delightful cruelty. Who among us didn't feel a lovely little chill when she talked about setting Spike on fire. And let us not forget there's still that wonderful green glowy energy just zipping around inside her. Maybe someone could make a special project of little sis Ö and turn Dawn to dusk.

And our Willow. She came so close to condemning herself and covering herself with greater glory than any witch has accomplished in, well, I don't know how long. And what is she doing with all that evil potential? Communing with nature. Becoming 'one' with the world. Blech. What happened to skipping her lessons to go mope off on her own? What happened to punishing her for stopping short of mass destruction? She could have been a legendary martyr for our children to look up to but, no, she lets Xander stop her. Why, oh why, couldn't she just do what he asked?

I suppose that only time will show which possibilities for evil will be realized. And in the meantime, they are dropping all those delicious hints about the rise of the oldest evil. I wonder if it's anyone I know?

[> about Lurky... -- Le Fey, 18:30:55 10/03/02 Thu

You'll be happy to know, LittleBite, that Lurky's up for review next month with the Evil Performance Board. Scuttlebutt says the Lower Ones are not happy, but you know about demons and gossip...

I must agree with you on Willow (bleh). The witch who nearly destroyed the world doesn't want to go home because they might give her the cold shoulder? And then there's Giles! Of course, I've never forgiven Ripper for turning on us the way he did back in the day. He had so much potential...wasted.

[> [> Re: about Giles -- Medusa, 18:46:50 10/03/02 Thu

At least we got to see a little of Ripper now and then, although sadly not in his fight with Rosenburg. When Giles picked up a chainsaw just to rescue his friends in that charming haunted fraternity house, I was sorely disappointed. I thought had he remembered Angelus' comment about the world of possibilities open to torturers since chainsaws had been invented.

Incidently, my neice is thinking of going into torturing when she gets out of school. Does anyone know someone in the union?

[> [> [> They prefer "Pain Technicians" now. -- Honorificus (The Politically Incorrect), 20:04:50 10/03/02 Thu

And yes, I've got a former minion in the union now. He might be able to put in a bad word for your niece.

[> A reply (spoilers, stupid) -- Honorificus (The Most Humble and Munificent One), 19:18:48 10/03/02 Thu

Your subject line, by the way, is making me hungry.

I would have responded earlier but sometimes the forces of evil simply collide. Instead of showing the only show featuring our kind, my channel carried baseball. Yankees, no less.

There's Evil, and then there's Just Plain Wrong. That really torques my tail, you know?

Shades of Hades, so much evil being totally subverted and you're talking about fashion and hair?

One must have one's priorities. Really, Little Bite, I realize you and I are of different species and all, but preterethnocentrism flatters no one.

Honor, dear, look up from all the fawning around your feet and focus!

Are they stacking up again? Must do something about that.

First, may I just say it and get it over with Ö Anyanka, Anyanka, Anyanka Ö what has gotten into her? I've never seen such a poor performance from a vengeance demon before.

On this, you and I are completely of one accord. What *is* that creature thinking? She needs an intervention, and fast. D'Hoffryn must threaten her with something horrible, or she'll be out of the fold for good.

And that lovely snake. Who didn't just smile at that beautiful quadruple set of teeth.

Wasn't it sweet? Must get one for my place.

And speaking of that skewering, has no one lodged a protest with the Overseers about Lurky?

I have, multiple times. They keep coming back with some balderdash about "balance" and him being a "primeval" power rather than an "evil" one or some such. I'm telling you, someone just needs to get itself to Africa and do the creature in, because the Overseers won't help.

Which brings me to our nemesis, the infamous Buffy. It seems as though the champion has recovered from that lovely funk she was in all last year. I know I was not the only one who enjoyed her distraction, giving so many of us greater scope for playing near the Hellmouth. I can only hope she will be kept so busy with all the petty little problems human teenagers think are so important. If her function is to listen while they whine at her I almost feel sorry for her. Almost.

Considering the havoc she herself could get up to as a teenager among teenagers, I don't hold much hope out for this. Hence my absolute depression upon viewing that episode.

Our little Dawnie is showing some potential, though. Misdirected though it was, she was showing some strong tendencies toward a delightful cruelty. Who among us didn't feel a lovely little chill when she talked about setting Spike on fire. And let us not forget there's still that wonderful green glowy energy just zipping around inside her. Maybe someone could make a special project of little sis Ö and turn Dawn to dusk.

Have hope if you will. Little twerp! I know, I know, it's just my prejudices talking. I try to see the evil in all, I do, but that brat just bugs me, y'know?

And our Willow.

Say no more. I'm irritated beyond measure. Doesn't Joss recognize her potential? Why must he keep tipping the balance back to the Good? She's becoming mealy-mouthed again, and it's simply inexcusable.

She could have been a legendary martyr for our children to look up to but, no, she lets Xander stop her.

That stupid meat sack needs someone to run a sword through him. Really. Talking Anyanka out of vengeance, bringing Willow back from True Evil with (gah!) love . . . nothing bad can come of it if he's allowed to breathe another day. Hey, perhaps he can get killed this season! That would send both Anyanka and Willow right back into our arms. Oh, I'm tingly again!

And in the meantime, they are dropping all those delicious hints about the rise of the oldest evil. I wonder if it's anyone I know?

Spike's relationship with his mother. Spoilers for 7.2 -- Miss Edith, 17:01:19 10/03/02 Thu

Sorry to start another Spike subject as I know there have been a lot of posts on his character following the airing of BY. But there was something I found interesting that I don't believe has been commented upon yet.
In his crazy scene in the basement Spike says acording to transcripts "Stop! Please mum! Begging now. Make it stop! Oh god. Ooh! Aaaaaah!" I have heard on other boards his voice is a lot softer in that scene and he is very William like. That makes sense to me as he is talking of manners and etiquette. So what does Williams's plea to his mother mean? The way I see it there are two possibilities.
The less interesting possibility is that William was simply a bit of a mummy's boy. In Fool For Love he tells a perfect stranger (Dru) that he must go because "mothers expecting me". Therefore if he was attached to his mother the basement scene can be interpreted as William simply returning to his childhood, and begging his mother to save him.
The more interesting possibility, to me, is that perhaps Spike/William was actually regressing in that scene. The way the dialoge is set out makes me think that he connects his mother with the pain and is begging her to stop hurting him. He doesn't say "mum please come to my rescue, help me". He says "Please mum". That strongly suggests to me that he is connecting his mother directly with the pain.
Also in FFL it would seem strange for any man, even sensitive William to tell a perfect stranger that he needs to go home to mummy. Therefore I was wondering if he brought this up because he was genuinely uneasy about being late, perhaps mother was abusive? It would certainly tell us a lot about Spike's attitude to women.

He worshipped Dru and would not have a word said against her. Witness his look when Xander comments she was insane in Triangle. Spike does everything to try and be worthy of her and seems to love being treated as her inferior, rather than having an equal partnership. Darla was Angel's sire yet neither of them dominated the other in their relationship. But Spike seemed to have a real need to look upon Dru as his saviour and his "dark goddess".
Dru constantly makes it clear that she prefers Angelous. Indeed it is implied in FFL that the sex during the boxer rebellion was their first time. Spike was therefore kept waiting for about 20 years, and I have no doubt Angelous was happily servicing Dru as well as Darla. Note his comment in the Ats episode Darla, "You've got me and my women hiding in a mineshaft". Again Spike is the outsider, and the inferior. Dru clearly shakes her head and seems to subtly take Angelous's side. Angelus was very much the master of the group. I don't recall Spike feeling a need to challenge Angel for pride of place. He is happy to kill a slayer in the boxer rebellion so he can feel equal and a part of the family. But he doesn't make a particular effort to declare his superiority over Angelous. Rather he just says Angelous needn't be glum, he can have first crack at the next one. Therefore Spike has no problem with being dominated by others.
I would guess that Dru was cheating with a lot more people/demons than just Angelous. Yet in season 2 of Bts from their first appearance it is clear Spike dotes on Dru. In Lie To Me he discovers she has had an enconter with Angel and angrily confronts her. She manipulates him beautifully. She changes the subject to her dead bird, and when Spike loses his temper she immediately starts whinning, causing Spike to apologise. When he is crippled Dru openly flirts with Angelous, yet Spike has no wish to punish her. He hates choking her in Becoming and is desperately trying to win her back. He seems to view her cheating as something he expects, and doesn't feel he deserves monogamy.
In Lover's Walk Spike is crying about Dru cheating and discarding him because he isn't bad enough for the likes of her. At the end of the episode he sets off to impress her by torturing her. Proving he can be demon enough for her liking. But that plan was always doomed to failure as there was no chance of Spike measuring up to Angelous in that regard. Spike even looks turned off in WML when Dru plans to torture Angel. "Not one for the preshow". Yet he will adapt to prove himself to Dru.
Harmony was the only relationship we have seen in which the female adored Spike, and was willing to change for him. Spike loathed her. He enjoyed pushing her around coldly stating "Love hurts baby".

With Buffy in season 5 he tries to impress her with acts of goodness such as fighting alongside her in BT. When he expects gratitude in Crush she is bemused. Spike is like an eager puppy looking for approval, and pointing out how good and helpful he has been. In Trinagle he points out he isn't feeding of bleeding disaster victims as he knows that's not what Buffy would want. Buffy uses his help but generally only grants him attention simply to beat him up. It is pretty clear that she despises Spike as evil and he is generally below her rader screen when he tries to relate to her as a person, such as in the bronze in Crush.
In fact he only really came to terms with his love for Buffy when she was becoming rather sadistic. In RM she punches him in the nose after he tells her where Harmony is. Just two episodes later his feelings for her were awakened. Just about loving the violence, or something more?
In Crush he is unable to understand why the women in his life are not responding to him and angrily shouts "Why do you bitches torture me?" So he has an occasional hatred of women, yet never ceases worshiping them and longs to do their bidding.
In OMWF Spike is on his knees singing to Buffy he will be her willing slave. In AYW he happily agrees to her continuing to use him, "Really not complaining here". Thia is after Buffy bluntly tells him that she is using him, and can never love him.
Spike only ever seemed confident in his relationship with Buffy when in Wrecked when he had great sex with Buffy, and assumed that as she felt something she would grow to love him. The physical aspect of their relationship was all he was ever comfortable with.

In Gone Spike does recognise Buffy is using him and tries to assert himself. He tells her to get out and although she ignores this and goes down on him, in the next scene she is complaining that "He threw me out" suggesting Spike actually found the inner strength to remove her physically. Yet this doesn't last and in AYW he is happily offering Buffy the words she needs to hear "I love you...I always want you". When Riley turns up Spike is treated like a dog. Spike is briefly cocky, believing Buffy is really his now following her wanting declarations of feelings. So he acts like a real jerk in front of Riley trying to prove himself. (I found a slight inconsistency with Spike's treatment of his lady "she's not your bint any more". A little too bad boyfriendly for my taste but anyway). When Spike realises Buffy is still not really his he becomes gentler. "No need to defend me love" following by Buffy punching him and demonstrating her superiority in the relationship in front of Riley. Spike beaks down and he is mocked by Buffy and Riley who joke they can never get him to shut up. Buffy comments on how stupid and incompetent Spike is "This is Spike Riley" and makes her prefererence for Riley clear. Yet at the end of the episode Buffy turns up at Spike's destroyed crypt and he is still willing to service her, without even bringing up her past behaviour and the contempt shown towards him. Not to mention he forgets the DT beating except for a brief mention of it in OAFA. And that was just during an argument. He did not seem generally pained and wanting the behaviour addressed, it was just something to throw in Buffy's face.

Therefore looking at Spike's relationship with women I was wondering if anyone else suspected that he shared an abusive relationship with his mother, causing him to crave domineering women? Dru may be insane, and more subtle about it than Buffy, but she is clearly the one in control of her relationship with Spike. When she cheats and tells Spike to get lost he does so. He is then thrilled when he thinks of a way of winning her back in Lovers Walk, no mention of her cheating, and whether that will be addressed. Spike doesn't care about that, he just wants to win back Dru's approvel. Perhaps his mother made him feel worthless? Perhaps she manipulated him, or was physically abusive? I got the strong sense that there was one primary woman in Spike's life who enjoyed playing mind games with him. Why else would he seek the same in his relationships? Does anyone else get the impression that we might be getting some backstory on his mothers behaviour? I think it would be an interesting avenue to explore personally. It could end up telling us a lot about William/Spike.

And BTW I am not saying Spike was necesserily a victim in the relationship with Buffy. I always felt they were muturally abusive. Just making the point about Spike longing for manipulative women who will use power plays on him but lack real love for him. I'm not focusing on the times in which Spike's demon causes him to behave badly with Buffy. Now Spike has a soul I am interested in William and the possibility of past abuse leading to Spike craving similiar realtionships as a vampire. Dru is never physically abusive, and I don't recall him particularly loving the DT beating or wanting a repeat performance. What I think is consistent in both relationships is Spike's need for the women in his life to look down upon him, and to treat him as lowly and inferior. Does anyone agree that we might have an exploration of Williams's family dynamics to look forward to?

[> Spike and Riley. -- Slain, 17:31:58 10/03/02 Thu

Let's bring in Riley, I know he's a big favourite with Spike fans.

It occurs to me that the character are really quite similar in their relationships with women. Both are defined by them; Riley goes from solider drone to anarchist to smart solider guy. Spike goes from poet to brawler to folorn lover to abuser to lover/abuser/poet (his character being rather more complex!). All of them make these transitions within relationships. When they're in a relationship where they don't feel completed or when they're dumped, they become erratic; Riley goes to the vamp whores, Spike saves the world from Acathla and then later hits the bottle.

I think this is a feminist angle, definitely; it reverses the misogynistic idea of women only being completed by men, turning it on its head. But of course there's more to it than 'men weak, women strong'. Clearly both Riley are Spike are better off with women than without them, but this is a positive, two-way affair. Riley's new career path might be dubious, but he's found contentment in himself. Now, while Spike isn't exactly chipper, through his love for Buffy he's regained his soul.

Spike clearly feels more comfortable with women who can dominate him, women who can give him purpose, whether that purpose is merciless killing or saving the world. He couldn't live with Harmony because she didn't give him that, and similarly, Riley couldn't live with Buffy, because she wasn't able to offer him the kind of security that Prof Walsh and Sam have done; she didn't have the kind of black and white certainties that he craves.

Another similarity, though debatable, is the missing-mother figure. True, Spike's mother has been dead for some time, and Riley's apparently lives in Iowa (which I suppose is similar - just kidding). But both are absent. I'm not much of a psychologist, but I think it would make sense for both of their mothers to have been very controlling, but also distant. With the mothers absent, both characters have tried to 'replace' this figure to an extent.

However, I'm unsure about William/Spike's feelings in Season 7. Does he want Buffy to show him the way to redemption, to accept him and heal him? I'm really not sure.

[> [> Re: Spike and Riley. -- Miss Edith, 18:04:23 10/03/02 Thu

I always felt Riley and Spike were opposites in the way they pursued relationships. They had similiar problems with Buffy being emotionally unavailable, but I found their aproaches to relationships and women differed.
Riley was uncomfortable with Buffy being preocupied in season 5 and not being fully invested in the relationship. For instance in BVD he comments in front of the scooby gang that Buffy is a little too interested in Dracula. He will speak up, unlike Spike who says nothing when Angelous and Dru flirt in front of him in IOHEFY. Spike is near tears, yet still afraid to confront Dru for fears she might leave him. Riley has higher expectations and when he sees Buffy becoming infatuated with a "brooding immortal" he will call her on it.
Buffy confronts Riley in OOMM about wanting to be a superhero, and not being content with his place as "regular joe". Riley was insecure and felt Buffy would only truly love him if he could measure up to Angel who as the mysterious older man had quite a lot of control in his relationship with dreamy teenage girl Buffy whose heart was broken by him. Riley seemed to want a similiar relationship with Buffy being truly devoted to him. Hence him choosing to visit the vampire trolls because he felt they genuinely needed him, even if it was just for the purely physical needs of blood.
Even when Riley's cheating was discovered he never threw himself at Buffy's mercy begging for forgiveness and love as Spike might have done. Rather he apologises, clearly stated his reasons for cheating and then gave Buffy an ultimation of what he expected from the relationship.
In AYW Riley is clearly happy with Sam and the two of them enjoy an equal partnership. Therefore whilst I agree that Riley does want female companionship, I feel he is insecure with the idea of the female being stronger than him. He has a need to control, more than to be dominated as Spike wants. Witness Riley's unease with Dawn mentioning Buffy sees him as "kittenish".
I would guess that Riley comes from a fairly traditional background with his father at work, and his mother in the home. However much he admired Buffy there was always a wish to protect her. He was desperate to offer comfort and is upset when he discovers Buffy was able to cry over her mother's illness, but did not look for him for emotional support. Spike wanted Buffy to open her heart to him also. But not so he could establish himself as the protecter, but rather so he could feel loved and necessery to Buffy the women he wanted to look up to and serve.

[> [> Re: Spike and Riley. -- White Avenger, 09:14:32 10/04/02 Fri

It occurs to me that Spike and Riley are opposites of the same thing: warriors in their own right, one starting out as the total good guy and all American hero, later drifting into and seduced by the Buffyverse's version of the Dark Force (vampire prostitutes, in Riley's case), and the other starting out as the total opposite of the hero in every way, an un-talented poet, seduced by a vampire in the beginning, but who is ultimately (at least we all hope!) won back over to the side of Good and Honor by the ultimate symbol of Truth, Justice, and the American Way, our own dear Buffy.

[> Re: Spike's relationship with his mother. Spoilers for 7.2 -- Miss Edith, 17:40:51 10/03/02 Thu

Sorry that should have said "Spike breaks down" in front of Buffy and Riley. Not "beaks".

[> yeah it seems likely -- Rochefort, 18:24:59 10/03/02 Thu

It seems in keeping with some of Joss's other writing. Tara's personality is brought directly back to parents. Willow's. Xander's. Buffy's more subtly. Spike's repeated relationships are too clear to be quincidental or accidental. It's part of his character. As I said in an earlier post, I won't make a guess as to WHAT the inner psychology is, but the behavior cycle is clear. If they're going to deal with Spike getting out of this behavior, I think there's a good chance he thinks about something in his past.

[> [> Re: yeah it seems likely -- Miss Edith, 18:53:02 10/03/02 Thu

I was just wondering if the fact that Spike did mention his mother in connection to pain might mean that the writers are interested in bringing Spike's backstory in and exploring it in season 7. The writers have already suggested in the episode BY that Spike felt used and abused last season. The scene in the church in which he cowers away from Buffy begging her not to touch him reminds me of OMWF in which Spike begged Buffy to leave him in peace unless she truly loved him. And then of course Spike recalls "Am I flesh to you? Feed on flesh my flesh" and numbly gives in. Just as Buffy reliefs the trauma of being almost raped, Spike reliefs the feeling of being used when Buffy touches him. Yet he still gives in ready to offer more and be Buffy's whore again even though he really longs for rest. Something about Spike/William struck me as damaged in that scene.
In Lover's Walk Spike happily states that he will make himself subservient to the wills and wishes of his lady. He will do anything including destory himself in the process. And as you say Joss does tend to bring in family abuse a lot. I sense a family connection

[> [> [> well, maybe Joss is being equal-opportunity -- Solitude1056, 21:40:51 10/03/02 Thu

How many times have we pointed out the father-abuse issues? Both Angel and Wesley seem to have had some sort of significant abusive (emotional or physical) issues with their fathers, and of course Buffy's father is practically nonexistant albeit loving, Xander's father is a verbally abusive drunk, and Willow's father has never even been seen - just plain distant, emotionally and physically.

Maybe Spike's revelations are an element of Joss evening out the scales - no more "mothers good, fathers bad" sort of thing?

At the same time, I'm also wondering if Joss is continuing to parallel the Buffy/Angel storylines. We've got Wesley, sinking down into darkness, who also has major love/hate issues with a parental figure, and whose issues seem to have been the basis for many of his actions or self-expectations in the past... and on the other hand we have Spike, fighting his way up and perhaps at the same time also carrying love/hate issues with a parental figure, and whose issues may be revealed to be the basis for his relationship patterns. Thinking of Spike's nambypamby appearance in FFL (repeated with that atrocious plaid suit in TR) always reminded me of Wesley's first impression on the Scoobies. Perhaps Spike and Wesley are meant to echo each other more than Spike is meant to echo Angel.

[> [> [> [> Re: well, maybe Joss is being equal-opportunity -- Rufus, 01:26:02 10/04/02 Fri

Sol.....I kinda like that theory...Wes and Spike have a more similar personality than Angel and Spike.

[> [> [> [> The bad mother has always been there -- Rahael, 10:02:01 10/04/02 Fri

Darla

Professor Walsh

The mother /daughter dynamic within the Willow Tara relationship.

Sheila Rosenberg

Catherine Madison

In a DVD commentary, Doug Petrie said that Joss was fascinated by the 'sick mother'

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The bad mother has always been there -- Arethusa, 10:17:44 10/04/02 Fri

He must have not had one, because there is nothing more poisonous and tedious than the "sick mother."

[> [> [> [> [> Darla was a terrific mom! -- Scroll, 10:46:02 10/04/02 Fri

I'm afraid I never felt any mother/daughter vibe in the Willow/Tara relationship. Granted, Willow had the power for a good deal in the beginning of the relationship, but it never seemed maternal to me.

As for Darla, I argue that she was actually a very good mother - in the sense that she raised Angelus up to quite the unholy terror, which was kinda the point. So it's not like she failed in her objective of bringing up her Darling Boy! ;) And she did stake herself to save her son's life. That's pretty motherly, IMO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe when Tara was brain-sucked? W/T was more like mother/child then. -- Dyna, 11:23:59 10/04/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe when Tara was brain-sucked? W/T was more like mother/child then. (season 6 spoilers) -- Rob, 11:52:32 10/04/02 Fri

I think that what happened in the sixth season was that, during Tara's infant-like state during the last portion of the fifth season, Willow had grown accustomed to being Tara's protector and mother figure. Therefore, her mind-erasure of Tara in the sixth season was an extension of these same feelings. She felt like she had the duty and right to take care of Tara, to clear up any nasty things, like arguments. Her "mind-rape" of Tara was not that long after she had brought her back to sanity, after all.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I can't see that -- Scroll, 12:05:12 10/04/02 Fri

Okay, I get that Willow as being motherly/protective of brainsucked Tara but after three months of Tara being sane again, I don't think Willow was still treating her like a baby. In fact, in "Bargaining" I saw a fairly equal partnership though Willow was still Boss-of-Us. And I never interpreted Willow doing the forget spell to be a maternal thing, more like a scared-she's-mad-at-me, scared-that-there's-fighting, let's-forget-the-tension kind of thing. Could just be me, though?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I can't see that -- Rob, 12:19:08 10/04/02 Fri

I guess I worded my thoughts wrong. I agree with you that the spell on Tara wasn't a maternal thing. I was just trying to convey that I think perhaps the tendency for Willow to make Tara's decisions for her was rooted in her brain-sucked period. Does that make more sense?

Rob

[> O/T -- Miss Edith, 10:32:05 10/04/02 Fri

This is completely O/T but I thought it would be better to just add it on to the post I started rather than start a new post, taking up board space. Anyway I posted a question asking for help on my dissertation a while ago. I was interested in whether anyone could suggest any useful sites on Gothic lit. Anyway the computers at my uni would not go on-line for a few days (no idea why). And as I am pretty forgetful I didn't remember posting that question until today. I have just checked the archives and I wanted to thank the people who responded. I have already checked out the links recommended and I will take leslies advice and speak to a librarian tomorrow about on-line journal databases. So thanks a lot, it's much apprecited. Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Now I may actually do a decent job on my dissertation if I manage to spend less time on Buffy websites.

Prophecies and vampires with souls -- confused, 18:25:45 10/03/02 Thu

Wolfram and Hart have been all in a tizzy about a prophecy regarding a vampire with a soul. I do not remember the details. All assumed it was Angel. Now Spike has a soul. Will this event pop up in Wolfram and Harts radar? Will this effect Angel? Has the prophecy been mis-interpreted?

Just found the site and enjoy the insights into the show. Would love some help with this issue.

[> Re: Prophecies and vampires with souls -- SableHart, 19:36:30 10/03/02 Thu

I've actually been thinking about that since the end of "Grave". Not only would that potentially mess up all the prophecies about Angel being one of the deciding factors in the Apocalypse, but also, wouldn't it throw him for a loop mentally? Assuming we ever get a normal version of him back again, if he ever learned about Spike, I'd think that would seriously derail a lot of his thinking. A lot of his mission has been about him being specially chosen to help people through the PTBs and prophecy. Now that he isn't the only vampire with a soul hanging around, there's the potential that the prophecy isn't about him. Thinking about it, if most of his reason to continue to fight is because of his unique position in the cosmos, then Spike would really call that into question. I'd imagine it would be similar to how Buffy felt in Season 2 upon meeting Kendra. But at least she was someone (if slightly shallow) before she was a Slayer, whereas Angel, before discovering his purpose/destiny, was a lecher, monster or hobo, depending on the time period. Not to mention, with the potential losses he could go through this season (I'm spoiler-free) I think any news like "oh, you're no longer the only vampire with a soul who will eventually save the world from an Apocalypse" and he'd probably revert back to something like Noir-Angel, only then he wouldn't be ignoring his destiny, he'd be ceding it to someone else.
Oops, I've started to ramble. Anyway, those were just my thoughts on the subject, before they get completely blown away by the season premiere. God, the potential for really good crossovers is just so frustrating right now!
SableHart

[> Re: Prophecies and vampires with souls -- Arethusa, 19:58:59 10/03/02 Thu

The scroll of Aberjian Angel took from W & H foretold of a vampire with a soul who would Shanshu (become human) after he fulfilled his destiny, which included surviving "the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed." (To Shanshu in LA) The prophecy also said "that the vampire with a soul would be pivotal in the battle between good and evil." (Offspring) Wesley later speculated that Angel might merely be the father of the pivital figure, fulfilling his destiny by bringing Conor into the world. But Wesley's been wrong a couple of times before.

W & H have enormous resources, including psychics, so they might know about the new vampire with a soul before Angel. So far we know nothing to contradict the theory that Angel is the vampire in the prophecy. Angel felt mystically attracted to the scrolls when he first saw them in W & H's vault. He's been told, I believe by Lorne and others, that he is the vampire in the prophecy. But everything is vague enough to potentially possibly apply to Spike. I look once for evidence that the vampire with a son was definitely the vampire in the prophecy, but couldn't find any.

Welcome.

(Spoiler of course) Buffy 7.2 (Spike/Will-iam & Bourbon) -- Frisby, 18:30:34 10/03/02 Thu

The bourbon (Makers Mark) is part of this (and I apologie for even mentioning it) but not all. Episode 7.2 was simply monumental. Spike (hereafter Will-iam, with James Marsters the actual actor and person always included) was great! I've read several reviewers now and I'm not alone. That was "Emmy" worthy! What's going on here? This is the greatest television I've ever witnessed. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" including the writers and actors, is simply unbelievable! Will-iam had his soul restored!!! How theological is that? Like Sara Michelle Gellar said "This is the most religious show on television!" This 2nd vampire with a soul (or William, and Spike, and Will-iam (as I call him))) is fundamental to the entire "Buffy" series. Marsters knows it. Gellar knows it too. And now its time for the actress Sarah to display her best. Together she and James are Emmy worthy -- to speak the least. Hey, humanity is being addressed here! Episode 7.2 was really great, with regard to both acting and writing, and philosophy. This is a website where philosophy (or radical thought) is not considered silly, right? I admit I feel out of sorts with regard to the intensity of my feelings for this show and the actors and writers involved, given that I'm nothing with regard to who's who and what's what in Hollywood, but come on, as some of the reviewers also say, this was monumental -- really great! We got a tear from Sarah at the end, but I expect and anticipate more. I loved her "Simply Irrisitible" (misspelled?) and would like to see in the next epsidoe what I know she's capable of -- she's great, as those of us listening to things like this know. It's time for "Buffy" to forgive and forget and love!!!!

Angel was Angel and Spike is Spike but the series calls for a great love romance that the cosmos turns on -- and the way Josh and co have set it all up -- it's possible!

For a small example with regard to the scope involved, I refer to the role of marriage (or joining generally) in the Nietzshce / Zarathustra world. The love of Buffy and Will-iam for each other is tantamount to the creation of the world from the great god and goddess!

The question of "soul" -- that which in Plato is older than even the ideas (or the gods), is the question par excellence! What or Who are we? And why male and female? Is complementarity anything different than wholeness? I love Buffy and Spike, and Sarah and James, and Josh and the others, and I'm drunk on bourbon (is that okay for web), and I say this is the greatest thing ever on tv and this last epsidoe (within context) was as good as anything I've ever seen.

Do these thoughts go nowhere? Are my feelings just nothing? How can a tv show be "so" central?

I await (as I think do others) Tuesday the the enucleation of season 7. Thank you Josh and Co. I love you. I hate you. Am I really alone? Or are others this attached?

David (the 51 year old Buffy fan who studies philosophy and drinks bourbon)

[> Re: (Spoiler of course) Buffy 7.2 (Spike/Will-iam & Bourbon) -- Sarand, 21:25:42 10/03/02 Thu

No, you are not alone. I would like to think that Buffy and Spike are headed for great things together. I'm not drunk but am massively tired. If I try to say anything else, it will be gibberish.

Btw, I've really liked your posts so far

[> Not alone... -- shadowkat, 09:59:14 10/04/02 Fri

Feel largely the same way. Though I dare not hope. Whedon is anything but a romantic. I think he's going for something greater than a romance here. He's going for a connectedness amongst all the Scoobies. Connectedness.
Reintergration. Female Empowerment are this seasons themes.
Last seasons were Separation, Entropy, and Male Violence along with Growing up.

That said - I think we will see Spike bonding with other characters throughout the season. We will see each character reaffirming connections with the others. The B/S relationship separated Spike from the group and what Spike yearns for is connectedness. He says it himself in Beneath you. He says that he looked for the Spark to fit.
He wanted her to forgive. So everyone would forgive and love. And he would be loved. Not just by her. But by the others as well. It's what Anya misses when she tells Xander she used to have friends and bridesmaids until he dumped her. At the end of Season 5, Anya and Spike were part of the group in some way. At the end of Season 6, they were apart from it, cut off. Willow was the same way.

The romantic or sexual relationships separated them. (Sorry
B/S last year was a sexual not romantic relationship.)
Now I think if the friendship - which ME appears to value over the sex - returns, we'll get reunification, wholeness.

Beneath You was truly brillant. There's a review of it on Scoop Me that I strongly agree with. In this episode the character of Spike transcended the fictional character and became real. I'm not sure i can analyze him effectively again, nor can I read others analysis of his character without disagreeing and agreeing at the same time. Every analysis I've read this week on Spike has been both right and wrong at the same time. Wrong in that it is soo limiting in it's desire to lable and categorize a character that is now beyond categorization and labeling and right in its honest attempt to see all the directions the character may be heading. Character development like this blows me away. I too do NOT know what is wrong with Hollywood that they can ignore something so beautifully performed and written that it transcends TV. Okay fanwanking I know.
But...well...SK (who is sure she isn't making a lick of sense. Hey it's friday and I just don't want to do work.)

[> Re: (Spoiler of course) Buffy 7.2 (Spike/Will-iam & Bourbon) -- Fascinated, 14:31:56 10/04/02 Fri

Long time lurker, first-time poster.
I am also very attached. Absorbed. Obsessed. Fixated. I feel like I literally can't stop thinking about the story. I cannot stay away from this board. (It's the only one I visit.) If I had taped Beneath You (and I wish I had) I would be watching it over and over.
I spent Wednesday and Thursday obsessively worrying about what the writers will or will not do. My focus on the show (and especially the last show) got in the way of my real life for a couple of days. My world seemed dark because the Buffyverse was dark. For a while I was actually thinking "I can't be happy until I know how things work out for better on the show." I so want a sense of resolution. I finally (mostly - but not completely)have accepted that I have to wait and see. I am working at balancing out my monomaniacal obsession with this program.
I have found that certain posts make me more anxious about the future of the show (I try to avoid those, because the last thing I need is to be more anxious about btvs.) Others make me more hopeful that although I might not get just what I want, I will eventually understand why the story took the turns it did and the way it turns out might be even better than I had hoped.
Thanks for your posts. Reading them made me feel better. And that, compared to the way I have been feeling lately (the show, the show, the show) is good.

[> Marti Noxon quote seems appropriate for this thread -- Sarand, 15:40:27 10/04/02 Fri

Shadowkat mentioned the review on Scoopme (which I also thought was a great review). I saw this interview with Marti Noxon on that board, entitled "Buffy's Boys." Of Spike, she said:

"He sort of represents Buffy's other side. He's her id. He's hang dog because he loves Buffy, and he's not been getting his way. But in some ways I think he's the most powerful. And he's constantly struggling with his nature, which is also a part of Buffy's character arc. So, to me, he is heroic in the Buffy universe, because he's right there representing what the show's about, which is the struggle to be a hero and the other part of you that wants to drag ya on down into the abyss."

I don't know, but it made me feel less anxiety about where they are going this season, at least about Spike. Hey, if we can quote Marti when she says negative things, we should quote her when she says positive things, too.

[> [> Cool. Thanks, Sarand. I feel better! -- Fascinated, 16:14:38 10/04/02 Fri

Xander Harris Superstar (Spoilers Up To 7.2) -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:38:28 10/03/02 Thu

Grave: Xander uses his love for Willow to stop her from ending the world and bringing her down off her power trip.

Lessons: Xander breaks the talisman, banishing the manifest spirits.

Beneath You: Xander convinces Anya to turn Ronny back into a human.

Anyone else find it odd that for the past three episodes Xander has (non-violently) saved the day? Could it be that Xander is becoming the Buffyverse version of a Messiah? I've heard that Joss planned to have Xander be Glory's vessle in Season 5 originally, so he's not adverse to doing some weird, mystical stuff with him. And it looks like this season is gonna have a very large scale, so Xander being the New Messiah isn't out of the question. Or maybe the writers are just trying to compensate for Hell's Bells.

I can say, though, that if Xander complains about feeling ineffectual anytime soon, I will scream at him. I'll literally scream.

[> I think Xander finally is understanding his own power (spoilers through 7.2) -- HonorH, 20:01:45 10/03/02 Thu

Remember how he was the "heart" part of the equation in "Primeval"? That's where Xander's true power lies: not in his brain, not in magic, not in physical ability, but in his willingness to help in any way he can. In "Grave," Xander complained of feeling worthless because it didn't seem like there was anything he could do to stop Willow. In the end, though, he was the *only* one who could reach her. Thus, I think we've heard the end of Xander feeling useless.

It shows, too. Buffy calls on him to help save her and Dawn in "Lessons," and Xander finds and breaks the talisman. Buffy tells him to talk sense to Anya in "Beneath You," and Xander doesn't back down in the face of a guilt trip. He's learning his true power and how to use it--which seems to be a theme of the season.

[> [> Re: I think Xander finally is understanding his own power (spoilers through 7.2) -- JBone, 21:32:22 10/03/02 Thu

Thus, I think we've heard the end of Xander feeling useless.

As much as I would like to believe that, I just ain't buying. I think that we're probably in for at least one mini slip-up from each one of the scoobs this season. If I'm wrong, it would be the first time. (that was a little joke there)

[> [> [> On that, I think I agree. -- HonorH, 22:34:18 10/03/02 Thu

The road to adulthood is paved with mistakes. I'm sure we'll see all the characters regress a little at some point, then move forward. I just think that overall, Xander has learned his worth and is growing more secure.

[> I like screaming at the characters -- Rochefort, 20:32:54 10/03/02 Thu

[> [> what would this board do without my advanced Marxist/Feminist/Deconstructionalist critiques? -- Rochefort, 22:36:44 10/03/02 Thu

[> Giles's comments about true selves re: Xander -- xanthe, 09:47:40 10/04/02 Fri

I agree that Xander's stepped-up contributions are notable, but not cause for concern. I think that the writers taken a lot of effort to show that all the characters have their flaws, but also their strengths as part of their total package. For example, in Lessons, Giles's speech to Willow about how she is only herself, sweet & nerdy Willow *and* scary, veiny Willow. I think the cut to Xander who was all turned out in his spiffy suit was meant to say something about who Xander really is. Some people thought that it meant that Xander was in for a fall or a reversion to his former insecurity and slubbiness. I took it to mean that he had been this suave, together guy the whole time he was that indecisive guy that he's ashamed of. This isn't a great insight. Heck, it was the whole them of an episode, The Replacement. But I think that Xander can be ineffectual from time to time, even after all that's happened, and still not lose all he's gained.

Spoiler for "Beneath You" -- Sarand, 20:33:32 10/03/02 Thu

This may be in the category of "duh, where have you been" or I could just be hearing things as well as seeing things that aren't there. But here goes. In the scene in the alley, just before Spike runs off, he looks down, shakes his head sadly and says, "Poor Rocky." Then he ran off and I kept asking myself "Who's Rocky." Well it turns out that Rocky is the dog! Spike/William/? was expressing sorrow over the death of a dog. And he didn't even do the dog. Oh, come on, you gotta love the guy now - he's a doglover

[> Post should be retitled "Who's Rocky?" -- Sarand, 10:52:31 10/04/02 Fri

Okay, this may be the height of pathetic, trying to get strangers on the Internet to acknowledge my little post. Maybe it's just because I'm at work on a dreary Friday afternoon and few of my colleagues are here. Sigh!

[> [> We all feel like that sometimes -- dream of the consortium, 12:53:18 10/04/02 Fri

A post with no responses even looks lonely, all by itself on the board like that. So I'll respond, because my office is quiet, too - though I don't have much to add.

Spike's expression of concern over the dog does mirror Anya's, though. And what does Anya say when Xander chides her for "Giving it up for the Yorkie"? "You never understood me, Xander." Lack of understanding being a central issue for Spike at the moment as well.

Somewhere below is a post in which someone argues that the dog represents the Anya and Spike both - the exes that are following behind a frustrated owner, who would rather be without the responsibility. If that construction works for you (it does for me), Spike's sympathy for the dog would seem to indicate some pity for himself - not the bad kind, necessarily, just a willingness to see the sadness of his situation. Plus a little fear of getting swallowed up?

[> [> [> Re: We all feel like that sometimes -- JM, 13:53:34 10/04/02 Fri

I thought that they responded to the animal -- in slightly different ways -- partly because they self-identified with it. Dogs are intelligent, loyal, and brave, but I don't think that they can be said to be moral agents. Their behavior is largely a result of conditioning, genetically influenced temperments, environment, and place in the pack. Although we may say "bad dog" and speak of them misbehaving, the concept of sin doesn't really apply. We don't expect them to seek redemption and indulge in deep soul-searching examinations of the root of their misdeeds. We don't (any longer) publicly execute them for wrong doing.

I think that this is approximately how demons operate. Without a conscience they are not moral agents. They act mostly as their nature dictates, with some variation based on their individual personality and their environment. But although we may call them irredeemably evil, I think it would be inaccurate to say they have sinned.

This is the world in which Anya now lives and to which Spike may very well wish he could return. "Poor Rocky" was just going along being a creature of mostly instinct, living his life, eating food, sleeping, not having to make any important decisions -- and all of a sudden gets his life ruined by going on a walk that probably wasn't his idea, by an ex-boyfriend that had nothing to do with him. I wonder if Spike feels a little like that now. A fairly simple straight forward creature, basically happy with his existence. Totally miserable now because he got medically modified and involved with a bunch of people whose world was in a constant state of upheaval. Overwhelmed by emotions and situation that he couldn't fully appreciate he took an action he really couldn't have understood the consequences of in his unsouled state.

As Buffy said "Why would you . . .?" It's a curse. It's why we haven't seen Angel running around trying to curse his vamp progeny even though he's immensely reluctant to terminate their careers. Spike without a soul didn't understand this, it's something he couldn't grasp without a soul. Those days last year, however miserable as love's neutered bitch must from this perspective look like the innocence of Eden.

I was struck a little by an impression that I got from BY. Angel seems to pity the man he is for being saddled with the memories and urges of the vampire. Spike struck me as pitying the vampire (perhaps what he still considers his true self) for being burdened with the grief and guilt of the man's soul.

[> [> [> [> Wow, that was way deeper than I was going... -- Sarand, 14:52:55 10/04/02 Fri

It just struck me as funny because unless you had really paid attention, you didn't know who he meant when he said "Poor Rocky" in the alley. With so much going on his head at that point, it was interesting that he thought about the dog. I will slightly disagree with your last statement, however. I'm not willing to compare Angel and Spike yet on how they are reacting to the soul. Angel's had his for over 100 years. I don't know who he felt more sorry for when he first got the soul. Since he certainly didn't ask for it, it separated him from his vamp family and he apparently didn't do much with it for a good portion of that time, I suspect he spent some time wishing for the life he had had and feeling sorry for the vampire being saddled with these horrible guilt feelings.

Spike, Anya, Willow, and ? (Spoilers up to 7.2 and future casting) -- HonorH, 23:01:09 10/03/02 Thu

We've got an interesting little quadrangle developing, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it leads. Here are our players:

Spike: with his new soul, he's fairly insane. He's trying to figure out who and what he is now. In "Beneath You," he tried on all his old roles, and none of them fit. So his choice is: move on to something new, which means going through all the pain; or fall back on one of his old roles, trying to make it fit as well as he can in order to avoid that pain as much as possible. Or, of course, get himself staked. One wonders if that ugly little scene in the Bronze might have been Spike attempting Suicide By Buffy.

Willow: She, too, is caught between roles. She was Sweet Willow, everybody's friend. Butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Then she got magic. She made mistakes with it. After that, she tried being Old Reliable once more, but Tara's death shattered that identity. Now she wants to be "Willow" again, but her self-image has been changed irrevocably by what she did under the influence of bad magic and rage. But she can't ignore the danger she senses. The question is, what part will she play when she returns? Buffy, Dawn, and Xander have drawn tightly together in the wake of "Grave". How will Willow fit in now?

Anya: She's a full-fledged Vengeance Demon again. She's reclaimed her strength, as we saw in "Beneath You," and she's making an attempt to be Anyanka in truth as well as name. However, she still has compassion and humanity enough to reverse the wish. "You don't want to see D'Hoffryn mad," she said. Why do I think we'll see exactly that? And what will her response be if he gives her an ultimatum? Hallie said it was a bad time to be a good guy. Anya's approaching fish-or-cut-bait time. She can't stay on the fence for long, and she's got to choose where she's going to land.

And finally:

Faith: She's returning to Sunnydale. Like all of the above, she's faced the darkest parts of herself. Like Spike and Willow, she's decided she wants to try for redemption. And like Spike and Willow, she's going to have to face those she hurt and try and find their forgiveness. I was reminded, watching the Bronze scene in "Beneath You," of Faith's own attempt at Suicide By Angel in "Five by Five." She went over-the-top out-of-control, being as bad as she could in an attempt to destroy herself. How far will she go to redeem herself?

We've got four characters who have seen light and dark within themselves. They all face a fork in the road. They all seek identity and a place in this world. Where they come down should be an interesting thing to watch.

[> Stop right now, HonorH! -- Rob, 09:24:57 10/04/02 Fri

Too many great posts in one week! How will I ever get back to my homework?!?

re: Spike. I can't wait to learn more about him, as the year progresses. So many questions, like, in the Bronze scene, was that the demon in Spike fighting to get out, to keep anyone from knowing he was souled? Was that the chipped Spike from the fifth and sixth seasons, desperately trying to retain his identity by overcompensating with the evil, but again failing? In other words, is Spike suffering from a kind of multiple personality disorder at the moment? Are there really three beings inside of him? Or is this really all the same, tortured, crazy being, trying on different versions of himself for size? I think we can be fairly certain that the thing telling him to go to hell, the shapeshifting creature we met in "Lessons" is a separate entity, but Spike and William? I'm not sure that this isn't the same "person," first falling into the habit of his former human personality (which would be natural, given that's what his soul's composed of), and then fighting it by putting on a show of how vampy he is. Btw, am I making any sense? lol

More and more, I'm beginning to think that this season will be the one that cements each of the Scoobies' positions in the world. After going through hell last year, struggling with their own inner demons, I think this is the year that each of them will finally decide who she or he is as a person. Like you said about Anya, I believe it's "fish-or-cut-bait time" for all of them, each in their own way. With the huge evil that seems to be coming, the situation may demand it.

Rob

P.S. Can you pass along to Honorificus that I have a bone to pick with her? ;o)

[> [> Spoilers for "Lessons" and "Beneath You" in above post. -- Rob, 09:28:27 10/04/02 Fri

[> And what about Buffy? -- ponygirl, 09:55:14 10/04/02 Fri

Buffy's a character whose darkness has mainly been explored through representation, most notably Faith as her darker half. Even in her darkest points last season her destructive energies were turned inwards, Buffy still went through the motions of serving the larger good. Buffy has the power now it seems, is it going to corrupt?

[> [> Re: And what about Buffy? Ramblings(spoilers thru 7.2 and Tales of the Slayers) -- Dochawk, 11:11:57 10/04/02 Fri

I was thinking about Buffy in HH's terms as well. But, I can see Buffy tempted, but not corrupted. She's the hero and even if SMG leaves the show, she'll go out the hero. I was thinking about Buffy's darkness in a different way. Dracula tells her her powers are rooted in darkness. Tales of the Slayer (written by Joss) tells us the shadowmen made the first slayer with some of the power of the demon (as well as her own power - weird thought just came to me - with her power could Willow make another slayer? if she had the shadowmen's ritual?). of course the first slayer also tells us that some of Buffy's power comes through love ( another quick thought the slayer: the power of a demon, the power imbued with love and a conscience, the visions and abilities of all the previous slayers [in Fray we are told slayers have innate moves that all slayers have learned]).

Anyway, back to my point, which was that perhaps if Buffy also comes to terms with the dark side of her power she would be even that much more powerful?

Thank god voy's back up! I was going into serious withdrawal! -- ponygirl still with the shakes, 09:15:15 10/04/02 Fri

[> Me too...but is it just me or is the board wonky? -- shadowkat, 09:42:43 10/04/02 Fri

We can see everything written on the board not just subject lines...whether we want to or not. And some include spoilers.

What's up?

[> [> Archiving . . . thank you for your patience -- First Evil Pro Tempore (d'H), 09:45:40 10/04/02 Fri

[> [> [> Ah... and you really did it dang quick! thanks ever so -- s'kat, 10:00:46 10/04/02 Fri

"What'll really bake your noodle later on..." (spoilers, if you're not a denizen of the Buffyverse) -- funny_syphilis_guy, 10:13:25 10/04/02 Fri

a few paradoxes and pointless ponderances from Buffys past.

-If Xander never breaks Anya's heart by leaving her at the alter, she would not have become a vengence demon. And if Anya had never become a vengence demon, she could never have teleported to the boneyard to tell Buffy that Giles was dying, and that Willow was going to "finish it" with her enormous, lawn piercing, newly erect...Proserpexa (yes, it turns out that all Dark Willow, like any other lesbian, was after was a bigger phallic symbol). If Anya never ports, Xander never overhears, Girl Power goes global, and Willow and and her pointy new Proserpexa get a much needed "moment alone".

[**editorial note** The comment in the labove paragraph, purporting to pertain to the wants of all lesbians, does not necessesarily reflect the views of funny_syphilis_guy, his member stations, or affliates, so if you were about to castigate funny_syphilis_guy, please, lighten up, lesbians are people, it is okay to laugh at them from time to time.]

Subparadox: if Xander never breaks Cordy's heart, Anya would never have come to SD in the first place.

Sub-sub-paradox, If Xander never broke Cordy's heart, she may never have gone to LA, never have met up with the tall, dark, and brooding one, and never have merited the love of a certain shady Vikings fan, with a nasty head cold, "an splittin' headaches." And, of course, no Doyle means no vision-Cordy, and no-vision-Cordy never gets to become a "higher being". SO Cordy has Xander to thank for her immortality. Xander and Skip.

-And Okay, this is not really a paradox, more a conjecture based on little more than a single scene, and lots of caffine, but try it out anyway.... What has been the single abiding premise of Buffy, from the get go? Sunnydale has a Hellmouth! Hellmouth draws out evil types, like a pecan pie draws flies at a Church picnic. Slayer moves to Hellmouth, Slayer and friends kill all the evil and protect the populace. WTG Scoobies.

Conjecture: The Hellmouth *wants* the evil types to be destroyed. It feeds on their evil essences, the same way DW fed on Rack and Giles. It needs the Slayer to do her job, and do it very well. The Hellmouth is a primeval power, and it has been manipulating Buffy and the Scoobies all along. Every time they axe another big bad, it gets stronger and stonger. It probably fed off Buffies essence both of the times she died there. Hmmm, Slayery goodness!

probably silly huh?

[> Hellmouth=BIGGEST Big Bad? -- Drizzt, 10:33:26 10/04/02 Fri

Conjecture: the Hellmouth "wants" Buffy to kill the evil types, it feeds off their evil essances?

Cool;) Sunnydayle's hellmouth as the ULTIMATE demon on earth; and all of Buffy's heroic Slaying would be ironic if it is making the BIGEST Big Bad of the Buffyverse more powerfull...

"From Beneath, it devours"...I am guessing fans will come up with dozens of interpatetions of that statement: that statement will lead to LOTS of interesting debates like Restless.

[> [> Hellmouth...the "next" Big Bad. -- funny_syphilis_guy, 11:21:23 10/04/02 Fri

It is really the only explanation that makes any sense. Consider: when Buffy died, Willow used magic to bring her back, and then Buffy was tormented for months wondering why. As she so eloquently pointed out to Giles, the fight for "good" would have been taken up by another slayer (it always is), so we can eliminate the PTB from Buffy-raising contention. But what if an evil power wanted Buffy back? It might cloud the Scoobies minds, so that none of them for even a moment would consider that she might be in Heaven, and it might use the Scoobies own natures and powers to tear Buffy out of Heaven, and bring her back down to slay some more. Thereby wounding her, and them, and no doubt getting its "kumba yaya's" out at the same time.

And what's more, not only would the Hellmouth be the ultimate Big Bad, it would also be the Ultimate Vampire. The evil mouth, sucking the life out if the earth itself and all who dwell thereon. Ultimately, I think the Hellmouth has always been a metaphor for the grave, the undefeatable foe, the ugly darkness that swallows every light, the one thing the slayers cannot protect anyone from (in fact the slayers themselves add to the body count, Drac saw darkness in this). The Grave is why Vampires both scare and fascinate us. They have found a way around the grave, they crawl out of the grave and come to feed on us. In essence, they bring the grave to us, they bring our worst fear to us. "From Beneath, it devours" the grave, the Vampire, the Hellmouth, they all devour.

just more rambling...

[> [> [> Ooh, got shivers from your post ; ) -- Scroll, 11:43:55 10/04/02 Fri

And what's more, not only would the Hellmouth be the ultimate Big Bad, it would also be the Ultimate Vampire. The evil mouth, sucking the life out if the earth itself and all who dwell thereon. Ultimately, I think the Hellmouth has always been a metaphor for the grave, the undefeatable foe, the ugly darkness that swallows every light, the one thing the slayers cannot protect anyone from (in fact the slayers themselves add to the body count, Drac saw darkness in this). The Grave is why Vampires both scare and fascinate us. They have found a way around the grave, they crawl out of the grave and come to feed on us. In essence, they bring the grave to us, they bring our worst fear to us. "From Beneath, it devours" the grave, the Vampire, the Hellmouth, they all devour.

Nothing really constructive to add, just that this paragraph gave me the shivers. The Hellmouth as the ultimate vampire, sucking the life-blood from the Earth, and as death or the grave, an unescapable foe from which there is no succour.

Very nice!

[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh, got shivers from your post ; ) -- Drizzt, 15:01:52 10/04/02 Fri

I will second that;(shivers);

ooh!, will do that again;)shivers(;

Neat;)

OT, Hellmouth as the Ultimate Vampire is much scarier than the "Blood God" in Blade, plus Joss & crew would not destroy the Hellmouth with something SSSOOOOOO lame/hokey as a Blood Clotting Agent...IMO

[> [> [> Ooh, got shivers from your post ; ) -- Scroll, 11:46:51 10/04/02 Fri

And what's more, not only would the Hellmouth be the ultimate Big Bad, it would also be the Ultimate Vampire. The evil mouth, sucking the life out if the earth itself and all who dwell thereon. Ultimately, I think the Hellmouth has always been a metaphor for the grave, the undefeatable foe, the ugly darkness that swallows every light, the one thing the slayers cannot protect anyone from (in fact the slayers themselves add to the body count, Drac saw darkness in this). The Grave is why Vampires both scare and fascinate us. They have found a way around the grave, they crawl out of the grave and come to feed on us. In essence, they bring the grave to us, they bring our worst fear to us. "From Beneath, it devours" the grave, the Vampire, the Hellmouth, they all devour.

Nothing really constructive to add, just that this paragraph gave me the shivers. The Hellmouth as the ultimate vampire, sucking the life-blood from the Earth, and as death or the grave, an unescapable foe from which there is no succour.

Very nice!

It's all connected -- fresne, 10:28:11 10/04/02 Fri

It's amazing the difference a year makes.
Every night I save you.
I dreamed of killing you. I think they were dreamsÖPouring buckets of salt over your end.

Both dreams. Illusions. Mirages. The same dream with different faces. Dreams of success. Dreams of failure.

Last year we were worried that Buffy's return would be too easy.

Then Willow killed a fawn 'neath the California oaks. Then Willow made a flower grow under a different sky. Anyone notice the teeth on that flower from Paraguay?

It's all connected.

Fall that time of year when Persephone makes that long walk into the earth. From her mother's earth to that of her husband. Which brings me to England and why I'm glad that they filmed there in a native Californian sort of way. In England, Giles can ride a horse across fields which are green in summer. Green. Full of life that soon will grow winter grey with sleeping. Even in summer fog swathed Santa Barbara, you'd be hard pressed to find that much green rolling grass at this time of year. Fall is the brownest time of year. Before the winter rains turn California green with life again.

Last year BtVS contained a community on the verge of a nervous breakdown and it didn't even know it. We didn't even know it.

Anya with her almost fiancÈe - gritting her teeth at her own whining. Now, from beneath you it devours, even if it is just the pre-show. Last year, Spike fought by their side all summer. Watched Dawn and didn't use hair gel, Nancy or otherwise. We had a community of friends and associates: Anya, Xander, Tara, Giles, Spike, Dawn and Willow to lead them. The Boss of us with glitter.

Now the group is just three. Buffy leading. Tara sleeping. The rest scattered in so many ways.

Once more there we have secrets, but nothing so long kept as the discordant loss of heaven.

And yet once more it was Buffy and Spike. Last time it was the harsh light of day. An alley. This time a soft dark church. Knowing by moonlight.

Probably not the same, but it made me think of the church from WaY. Faith pounding her self loathing into her own face.

It's all connected.

When did Dawn become unbelievably scary. Perhaps, when she lay down next to I sing the Buffy Electric for comfort. Perhaps, we just never really knew the Real Me at the heart of Scary Dawn.

What we once were informs what we become.
In the end, we all are who we are no matter how much we appear to have changed.

What we were and what we become being open to question.

Do Anya and Spike's game faces mask or reveal? Is Willow's Restless costume, Spike's blue sweater (the color of the sky, non-threatening, receding from the eye. The opposite of leaping red.) the true or the seeming or both? Perhaps, they are the in between.

The truth or evil or both would seem to lie beneath. Tunneling. Rumbling. Shaking things up. Like the Master's Earthquake.

As Age commented - the serpent - the great worm sloughs its skin to reveal the man beneath. Sluggoth demon - a natural predator, same phylum as a worm. The same creature in different forms. That area where genus and species have play. Perhaps the worm is more like a caterpillar waiting to spin its silk and butterfly float.

Butterfly. Symbol of Psyche and the soul. Lunar moths, their cousins who float by night. A butterfly flaps its wings in China and the sky opens with rain in England. Actions have consequences unseen. Un-thought. Seemingly disconnected. Giles offers Willow an umbrella in England and the world turns. The World Serpent twists.

You don't know what you are, what you will become.

Possibly because we're not done yet. Are never really done Becoming. Circling. Cycling. Connecting.

(M)entoring
(E)ncouraging
(R)ewarding
(G)rowth

Said the poster on the other side of Buffy's cube at the school.

Although in her new role, she's not ready to slough her skin, reveal her true self. Whatever that is.

Is there something about you that I should know?

Probably, maybe, not yet. Interesting, BY was the first time that when Spike said that he had changed, Buffy believed him. Willow fears that she has changed all out of shape of being Willow. Anya wonderingly looks at her former friends and calls them human, which she is not. She is different from them, from what she was. She's not done yet though. None of them are, so only Joss knows.

Full fathom five thy father lies;
Of his bones are coral made;
Those are pearls that were his eyes:
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.
Sea-nymphs hourly ring his knell:
Ding-dong.
Hark! now I hear them - ding-dong, bell.

What is coral but a changing series of connections.

It's all connected.

[> Spoilers for 7.1 and 7.2 above -- fresne, 10:40:04 10/04/02 Fri

[> Beautiful! -- Rob, 10:41:49 10/04/02 Fri

Also kinda reminds me of that great line in "Fargo"...

"Do ya think they're...connected?!?"

Rob

[> Yes, wonderful! -- Sarand, 10:49:00 10/04/02 Fri

[> Sigh... so lovely! -- ponygirl, 11:12:28 10/04/02 Fri

[> As in ... wow! -- verdantheart, 12:57:38 10/04/02 Fri

[> Re: It's all connected -- Deeva, 18:58:39 10/04/02 Fri

Truly lovely, fresne. I love the lyrical feeling of your phrasing. It's all so sublime yet it causes the little wheels in my head to squeak ever so pleasantly!

I just found an on-line petition to put "Angel" on DVD. -- Rob, 11:21:00 10/04/02 Fri

So far it only has 14 signatures. Yikes!

Now, I know this probably won't do any good and the "Angel" DVDs will happen when they happen...but if you want to sign anyway, it's at http://www.petitiononline.com/angeldvd/

Rob

[> from my understanding.. -- neaux, 12:31:51 10/04/02 Fri

I thought that the Angel season 1 DVD's would coincide with Buffy Season 4 DVD's.. so that would be maybe June of Next year.

[> [> That would be really cool, if it happens. -- Rob, 12:34:31 10/04/02 Fri

Then the whole story could come out in chronological order. I would love that, and then I could alternate watching "Buffy" and "Angel" eps, so the cross-overs eps line up. Here's hoping it actually works out like that.

Rob

[> Angel DVDs -- Dochawk, 13:28:49 10/04/02 Fri

Angel DVDs are a few years away and no petition is going to help. Angel first will be sold into syndication (probably to FX so they can pair Buffy/Angel) and will have to have two run throughs before Angel DVDs will be sold in the US (they are already available everywhere else in the world, but unless you have special equipment they aren't playable in the US). And Angel doesn't go into syndication until there are 100 episodes, ie 5 years. So don't expect Angel DVDs until Christmas 2004 at the earliest in the US/Canada (and thats optimistic, I would expect it to be May 2005). I have a friend who will absolutely know this (she'll be in charge of marketing them), so I'll ask next time I see her when she expects them out.

[> [> Never understood why it takes so long -- oboemaboe, 14:51:23 10/04/02 Fri

In the U.K., you can already buy the complete B6 and A3 on VHS (http://www.blackstar.co.uk/circle/search?words=angel).
I saw a different page offering B6 this June if I remember correctly. Why should the DVD's take years if the VHS's are available instantly after the season?

I know there are some extra features, but none that take years to produce. S2 has some audio commentaries, some interviews, trailers, photos, cast bios, and three featurettes. Most of this could be (and probably is) done during the course of the season so it's on hand when it comes dvd time.


Should I just file this under "the suits must be crazy"?

[> [> [> its all about money -- Dochawk, 15:37:00 10/04/02 Fri

Releasing DVDs before syndication significantly cuts the value of the syndie rights, therefore DVDs after syndie. If CSI makes more money the opposite way (which is what they and 24 are trying) then we may see a change in the industry (but 1 hour nongenre dramas do not do well in syndication).

Blew my mind.... -- Jordan, 16:44:54 10/04/02 Fri

Hi to everyone out there, I've watched these discussions for a while but this is the first time I've posted anything here.
I'm a die hard fan of Buffy, but the latest episode "Beneath Me" absolutely blew my mind. I was away when the episode aired, and when I came back I read reviews and heard from people of how good the episode was...but when i saw it for myself (from a tape I borrowed from a friend) no words can describe it. I've always been a Spike fan, and the final scene with him really pulled a the heart strings. It was so touching, and unbelieveable.It also made me think about love and forgiveness and redemption. And when a story makes you think that much, and re-evaluate yourself, that's truly the sign of some fantastic storytelling. It has got to be one of the greatest episodes and greatest scenes in the history of T.V. It's be a crime for James Marsters not to get an Emmy for that performance alone.
I have a question though, the speech that Spike gives at the very end right before he burns himself, is that his own poetry or is it a quote from somewhere?

[> Re: Blew my mind.... -- Veelana, 16:53:26 10/04/02 Fri

hi,

i dont wanna sound blasphemic, but i never thought Marsters could act - dont get me wrong, i love Spike, i just thought Marsters was a nice face (and body!!!) but he had exactly one part he was able to play - boy I WAS TAUGHT DIFFERENTLY!!
I take bak everything i ever said about his acting. JM is a great actor (and he has a nice body)

Vee

[> [> Re: Blew my mind....(AND the photographers!) -- Frisby, 06:16:46 10/05/02 Sat

Yes, he can act. But someone needs to also point out how great the photography and lighting was (need I also say the directing)!! I don't know the names of them all but they deserve mention. Watch that final scene again and notice the perspectives and especially that fantastic lighting!

[> [> [> Give praise to the Joss! -- HonorH, 10:47:52 10/05/02 Sat

As was confirmed to me above, he re-wrote and directed that scene himself. See what happens when you let Joss have his way?

[> [> [> [> Re: Give praise to the Joss! -- Dochawk, 22:16:39 10/05/02 Sat

I think the above confirmed nothing of the kind. In fact, the "original version" didn't read like it was written by Petrie. it could just as easily have been written by someone who wanted to cause tsaurus in the internet fan community (reads like it actually). Could Joss have written the version we saw, absolutely, but the story as written both places smells like internet legend, not truth.

[> [> [> [> [> "Tsaurus"--please define! -- HonorH, 22:57:55 10/05/02 Sat

That's a lovely word, and I'm very interested in it. What does it mean, precisely?

(and yes, I'd like to have the aforementioned rumor confirmed by TPTB)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "Tsaurus"--please define! -- Dead Soul, 02:46:05 10/06/02 Sun

Not to step on dochawk's toes, and being by no means any kind of an expert on Yiddish, the word I believe he's using is one that I've usually seen spelled "tsuris" and means trouble or conflict, turmoil. What he means (and it's perfectly clear in his post what he means even if you don't know what "tsaurus" means) is that someone may very well have released an ersatz scene just to stir the sh*t.

Can't say I believe he's wrong, but I did have an evil little voice in the back of my head as soon as I'd seen the scene asking if this was one of Joss' rewrites.

Dead (and jumping in unasked) Soul

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "Tsaurus"--please define! -- Dochawk, 08:36:07 10/06/02 Sun

As good a definition as I could have come up with. Translating Yiddish into English is always weird.

I forgot to add that Joss stated in an interview that one means they were going to try to foil spoilers was to release "fake" script pieces.

And Joss could have written the one we saw, I jusst don't think the one posted above was written by Petrie (well not for any draft that was going to be used, first drafts are notoriously poor).

[> [> [> Re: Blew my mind....(AND the photographers!) -- celticross, 11:51:47 10/05/02 Sat

Oh, yes...that last shot with Spike hugging the cross, with the blue light across his back and the smoke drifting up... Absolutely beautiful.

[> Re: Blew my mind.... -- Miss Edith, 17:02:25 10/04/02 Fri

It does sound like a biblical quote to me. But as far as I'm aware the speech comes from Spike alone.

[> Wasn't a Bible quote. -- HonorH, 17:14:30 10/04/02 Fri

I can tell you that much. I wouldn't rule it out as being a quote from a poem or some such, but I really think it came from the mind of SpikeWilliam. Perhaps part of that speech he'd been rehearsing all summer.

I agree totally about the Emmy thing, btw. Marsters has given some amazing performances ("Fool For Love," "The Gift," and, yes, "Seeing Red"), but this one beat them all, IMHO.

Welcome!

[> [> Re: Wasn't a Bible quote. -- Veelana, 17:17:31 10/04/02 Fri

Yes, marsters gave a good performance in seeing red, but not THAT good

Vee

[> [> [> Some so called professionals disagree -- alcibiades, 21:13:49 10/04/02 Fri

From the Boston Herald

http://www2.bostonherald.com/entertainment/television/rave10042002.htm

The Friday Rave
by Mark A. Perigard
Friday, October 4, 2002

Just two weeks into the new season, we've had our first Emmy-caliber performance, and it appeared, of all places, on UPN's ``Buffy the Vampire Slayer.''

James Marsters killed as Spike, fighting the ravages brought on by a newly won soul and the remorse he feels for centuries of bloodletting.

Over the seasons, Marsters has been called on to play a character who ranged from a Big Bad to a comic foil to a romantic lead and, in what could have been an audience deal-breaker, a would-be rapist. Now he's taking his character into his worst nightmare, the light of humanity.

After an emotional confrontation with Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) at the climax of Tuesday's episode, Marsters' vampire collapsed on a cross, oblivious to his smoldering flesh against the holy object. He was spent. So were we.

[> [> [> [> What a terrific quote! -- HonorH, 22:10:58 10/04/02 Fri

Don't quite get your subject line, but that's high praise for JM. And doesn't he deserve it?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: What a terrific quote! -- alcibiades, 08:13:12 10/05/02 Sat

Well I have ambivalence about recognizing the experts as experts in this field because while they might be so called experts in this field, whatever that means, what they are commenting on can be quite subjective -- unless they are talking about technique or the influence from earlier movies or shows, etc. -- and often I disagree with their views.

Anyway for another rave review of Spike, here's this from Hunter Maxin at scoopme.com.

http://www.scoopme.com/tv/articles/default.asp?article_id=72329

[> [> I googled it days ago...and nada... -- alcibiades, 18:19:25 10/04/02 Fri

I haven't liked the idea of the return of the bloody awful poet William, but if this is the fuller revelation of William/Spike's mature power as a poet -- hey, I'm in.

The delivery sounded biblical but as you say, it's not a biblical quote.

[> It sounded like something... *spoiler for 7.2* CAUTION: crazy late night ramblings -- Veelana, 18:54:59 10/04/02 Fri

... that Spike made up all by himself with a little help from the "shapeshifter" from Lessons. Its not from the Bible, you can check it out at www.bibleontheweb.com

Here¥s the quote:

And she shalt look on him with forgiveness
And everybody will forgive and love
And be loved so everything is OK
can we rest now?
Buffy, can we rest?

After whatching "Beneath you" im getting more and more convinced that the shapeshifter is a product of spikes Immagination or better: one of Spikes/Williams multiple personalities.

As has been said before, the great evil of the season isnt very likely to be in ep one. Spike clearly has multiple personalities (we know at least two, i think theres a psychic one too because he know stuff he shouldnt)and while im writing, im getting other ideas: every person we saw in the morphing scene personifies one of spike/Williams personalities.

Warren: coolMacho!Spike, the Spike we saw in the blue shirt.
He is absolutely sure Buffy wont understand because shes a *Girl*, so he has to act the way she knew him before: cool, nothing-can-hurt-me-baby!Spike

Glory: absolutely convinced that he/she is better than the rest, very self-confident,

Adam: everything-is-normal!Spike, who wants to wait for Buffy to come to him, we haven¥t seen him yet but i bet we will

The Mayor: it-was-stupid-to-get-your-soul-back!Spike, havent seen him

Drusilla: crazy!Spoik, psychic, maybe the stars told him that buffe needs help :)

The Master: Evil!Spike, the Demon inside who wants to raise the first evil

Buffy: Strong!Spike, who wants to dominate (it about power)

Now that i¥ve written it down it sound almost right - but maybe thats just due to the fact that its 3:30 in the morning here in Austria and i just cant stop reading...

And I realize I should have started a new Thread...

I¥m realy happy i found this board, cause some of your ramblings are even stranger than mine.

Thanx for reading
Vee

you can find the morphing sequens and the quotes on
http://www.leoffonline.com/wildfeed/archives/eps-buffy/b7-01.html

[> [> Ain't in his mind -- oboemaboe, 20:57:01 10/04/02 Fri

Someone must have mentioned this already, but since Spike never met the Master or the Mayor, how could those be projections of his mind?

[> [> [> Re: Ain't in his mind -- Quentin Collins, 21:01:51 10/04/02 Fri

Does it necessarily mean that Spike has never met them just because we never saw them interract onscreen? The Master in season one spoke of how fond he was of Angelus. And we saw that he had a close relationship with Darla. Since Spike was part of their gang for so many years, it is very possible that Spike did meet the Master. The Mayor kept close tabs on Spike during season two (as he mentioned in "Lovers Walk"), so it is possible that they had a run in at some point off screen during that season.

[> [> [> [> Re: Ain't in his mind -- alcibiades, 21:17:19 10/04/02 Fri

I noticed something interesting the other day.

The Master was going on about something -- delivering a homily to his folks, and he finished by saying "here endeth the lesson."

It was absolutely striking because it was the exact language used by Spike in FFL when he was giving lessons to Spike.

Don't know what it means -- if they met or it is some kind of vampire convention for ending lessons.

[> [> [> [> [> it's part of church liturgy -- tim, 08:24:30 10/05/02 Sat

At least in the Anglican tradition (possibly Catholic too, but I'm Episcopalian, so I can't speak to that) "Here endeth the lesson" is one of the conclusion statements to a Bible reading prescribed by the Book of Common Prayer for use during the Holy Eucharist service.(Holy Eucharist is essentially Mass: the service during which one hears lessons from the Bible, receives a sermon on one of those lessons, and then participates in tne sacrament of Holy Communion.)

In the Episcopal Church (to oversimplify, Episcopalians are Anglicans in the USA), the languange is considered archaic, but you still hear it in some churches, especially those with older congregations who are used to hearing older versions of the service. The Master's and Spike's use of it is an ironic twist on this saying that would have been extremely familiar to them if they had any familiarity at all with English society between about the 16th and 19th centuries, which they obviously do.

If I've only muddied the water, let me know and I'll try again.

--th

[> [> [> [> Spike's timeline -- oboemaboe, 21:30:51 10/04/02 Fri

We saw Darla and Angel meet the Master in "Darla." Angel took her away from the Order of Aurelius in 1760. Spike was turned in 1880. The four of them hung out until 1900. Sometime after that Darla rejoined the Master, while Spike and Dru spent their century together cutting a swath across continents. Since Spike was never a member of the Order, why would he have any reason to meet the Master? Remember how patient he was with the ritualistic baggage in "School Hard"?
Since Spike and Darla weren't too fond of each other (his indifference to her resurrection in "Crush"; her line "while Spike -- Spike!-- was out bagging a Slayer"), I doubt she would have introduced them.

The Mayor tells Finch he had had a tough time guessing what Spike would do next in S2. If they had met, why wouldn't Spike simply have boasted about his plans? He tells us in SH how much he loves to brag.

"Here endeth the lesson" is a fairly common phrase.


What I'm still stumped on: Why did Spike say, "Home sweet home" in SH?

[> [> [> [> [> There's no place like it. -- Isabel, 09:41:57 10/05/02 Sat

I figured it was because he was planning on moving in. He wanted to a) heal Drusilla and b) take control of the Hellmouth with Drusilla and have loads of fun doing it. That means Sunnydale becomes their new home and Spike was probably certain no one could keep them from it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, but HSH sounded like he'd been there before. -- oboemaboe, 10:00:02 10/05/02 Sat

back to the Heracles thread -- leslie, 17:02:04 10/04/02 Fri

God, I take one day to take care of actual work and this board gets so far ahead of me I don't think I can catch up. I want to go back and address something Caroline said at the end of the Heracles-as-paradigm-for-Spike thread:

"As for Spike, I've been thinking of him in terms of sacrificing himself or being sacrificed, at least from how I interpret Restless. But his current psychological state of mind could point in the direction you are thinking. He is clearly in a dissociative state. He loves Buffy and hates her 'I dreamed of killing you'. He hates the power that she has over him, the things that made him do to win her etc. This is a great Kleinian moment - destroy that which you love because it causes you so much pain and anguish. If he doesn't move beyond his envy, it would be quite possible for him to behave in the way you mention and become Romantic Lucifer. But I see the spearing of Worm/Ronnie by Spike as the confrontation of his own dark side. In Beneath You, Spike was incredibly frightened of his own darkness after the initial bravado while he was twirling the spear around. With the Heraclean journey he is on now, I think it's quite possible that he will be the sacrifice once he encounters and accomodates his darkness with his soul."

I would argue that Spike-as-Heracles has *already* sacrificed himself--that's what he did when he went looking for a soul. The end of the Heracles myth is that, after having come to terms with killing his wife, Megara, and children, he marries Deianeira; as they are going home from the wedding, they have to cross a river and a satyr named Nessus offers to ferry Deianeira while Heracles swims across himself. Nessus takes advantage of his position by trying to rape Deianeira, but Heracles shoots him with an arrow. As he is dying, Nessus tells Deianeira that if she mixes the semen he has squirted out with olive oil and annoints Heracles' shirt with it, if she ever suspects that her husband no longer loves her, she should get him to wear the shirt and his love will be restored. In fact, what happens is that when he puts on the shirt, it clings to his flesh and burns uncontrollably--nothing will put it out. Finally, driven mad by the pain, Heracles builds his own funeral pyre and immolates himself. Zeus decides that Heracles is too good to simply die, and the gods unanimously vote to accept Heracles into Olympus (Hera goes along with the vote out of guilt over her persecution of Heracles, and once he arrives in Olympus, Zeus forces her to adopt him through a ceremony in which he is symbolically reborn by climbing out from under her skirts.) Heracles then is married to Hebe, whose name means either "youth" is it is derived only from Greek or, if it is derived from Hittite, "earth mother," and becomes the gatekeeper of Olympus.

So, if we're going to follow this Heraclean paradigm (oooh, big words!), it seems to me that the marriage of Heracles and Megara is the parallel to Spike and Dru. Heracles' madness in which he kills all those he cares for the most parallels Spike's "madness" in first allying with and then falling in love with his enemy, the Slayer, turning his back on his vampire family and identity. The whole Nessus episode deals with rape, fidelity, and abandonment, as does the climax (no pun intended, or maybe it is!) of S6 between Buffy and Spike. Spike's torment in reaction parallels Heracles when he puts on Nessus's shirt; like Heracles, who immolates himself on a funeral pyre, Spike is burned by fire both in his first challenge with Lurky and appears to be burned/on fire when the soul is put back in him. So I think what he is going through now is the phase where Heracles receives his apotheosis and is "reborn" from his former tormenter.

The Spark Inside. spoilers for 7.2 Beneath You -- Rufus, 17:39:30 10/04/02 Fri

Spike: But it's here....in me....all the time....the Spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve. And I got it. They put the Spark in me and now all it does is burn.

The use of the word "spark" got me to thinking of the symbolic meaning of the word. This is what I came up with....

SPARKS: Symbolically speaking, tiny bits of actual light, floating upward from the domain of base matter into the higher realms - across the DUALITY above/below. The duality spirit/matter, as it appears in Orphism, Pythagoreanism, and Essenianism, and the other philosophies and religions with Gnostic leanings, begins with the belief that minute bits of the divine spirit or of the ether are buried in us and that they attain the realm of light, as souls without bodies, when they have freed themselves from the "bondage of the flesh." The Chassidic mystic Rabbi Samuel Rav Shmelke of Mikulov (died 1778), formulated the duality as follows: "All souls are divine sparks. When any spark is sunk in the swamp and mire, will we not feel sorrow for it? Will we not help it to free itself, so that it can once more light up with its full brilliance? It is, after all, a part of God himself...."[Langer].
from Dictionary of Symbolism by Hans Biedermann

I went back to some of the stuff I had collected on the Gnostic Gospels and started to think about the function of the spark/soul inside of Spike and why it would not comfort but burn. Spike is another vampire with a soul and his situation is similar to Angels but only on a surface level. Angel tried to rejoin his vampire family, tried to fit in with the soulless, but Spike has gone back to try to fit in with the Scoobies. Both vampires have a struggle with their dual nature of having human and demon to constantly navigate life with. Both are/or have gone through a period of insanity...a point where they can't deal with what they have done in the past so they can move on into the future. Angel got his first taste of what being human could be when he watched Buffy so long ago. Spike went in search of a soul because he knew it was the only part of him that was lacking, the only part that gave him any chance of fitting in with Buffy.

But the spark burns, why? If Spike is to go further than the basement of the school (gee, both Spike and Xander have lived in basements now) he has to get past the demon inside and become more than the demon he had become. I think it's no mistake that the demon infection separates the human from the spark of the divine....the goal to keep humanity separate from their potential. The fact that there are now two vampires with a soul, no matter how they got that spark, should be seen as a sign of hope for all.

I read a bit on the Gnostics and found this twelve point list of characteristics that could describe Gnosticism....

Hence I shall present it here as a suggested collection of criteria that one might apply in determining what Gnosticism is. The following characteristics may be considered normative for all Gnostic teachers and groups in the era of classical Gnosticism; thus one who adheres to some or all of them today might properly be called a Gnostic:

The Gnostics posited an original spiritual unity that came to be split into a plurality.

As a result of the precosmic division the universe was created. This was done by a leader possessing inferior spiritual powers and who often resembled the Old Testament Jehovah.

A female emanation of God was involved in the cosmic creation (albeit in a much more positive role than the leader).

In the cosmos, space and time have a malevolent character and may be personified as demonic beings separating man from God.

For man, the universe is a vast prison. He is enslaved both by the physical laws of nature and by such moral laws as the Mosaic code.

Mankind may be personified as Adam, who lies in the deep sleep of ignorance, his powers of spiritual self-awareness stupefied by materiality.

Within each natural man is an "inner man," a fallen spark of the divine substance. Since this exists in each man, we have the possibility of awakening from our stupefaction.

What effects the awakening is not obedience, faith, or good works, but knowledge.

Before the awakening, men undergo troubled dreams.

Man does not attain the knowledge that awakens him from these dreams by cognition but through revelatory experience, and this knowledge is not information but a modification of the sensate being.

The awakening (i.e., the salvation) of any individual is a cosmic event.

http://www.gnosis.org/~gnosis/whatisgnostic.htm

Some things in the above list reminded me of both Buffy and Spike and the fact that they now seem to be having the same type of dream. Remember in Restless what was said to Buffy by the form of Tara....

TARA VOICEOVER: You think you know ... what's to come ... what you are. You haven't even begun.

Are both Buffy and Spike on the same path for a reason?

Within each natural man is an "inner man," a fallen spark of the divine substance. Since this exists in each man, we have the possibility of awakening from our stupefaction. Are their dreams a way of gaining the knowledge needed to become what they were meant to be? Both dream troubled dreams....they now both contain the same spark.....they are connected as surely as everything is connected in the world. The infection of the demonic soul in the vampire has separated Spike from his humanity, but now he has the spark, that spark that can bring him to a state of awakening, the only thing holding him back his fears. I remembered a passage from the Gospel of St Thomas ....

Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

Spike spoke of his internal struggle.....

Spike: And now everybody's in here....talking. Everything I....and Him...and IT.....the other...the thing beneath you...it's here too. Everybody, they all just tell me go....go.....to hell.

This is where I think Buffy can help Spike...be the guide, to help Spike connect the man within...if so, is that part of what Buffy was meant to become....making her more than a killer, a slayer...maybe there is still a gift that Buffy has to give the world after all.

[> WOW. -- Fascinated, 18:30:40 10/04/02 Fri

My consciousness has been raised. I am going to ponder this. Thanks!

[> Facing our fears ...Spoilers for Nightmares, Restless and BY -- shadowkat, 19:35:48 10/04/02 Fri

"Within each natural man is an "inner man," a fallen spark of the divine substance. Since this exists in each man, we have the possibility of awakening from our stupefaction. Are their dreams a way of gaining the knowledge needed to become what they were meant to be? Both dream troubled dreams....they now both contain the same spark.....they are connected as surely as everything is connected in the world. The infection of the demonic soul in the vampire has separated Spike from his humanity, but now he has the spark, that spark that can bring him to a state of awakening, the only thing holding him back his fears. I remembered a passage from the Gospel of St Thomas ...."

Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."""

(Rufus - another beautiful post. Thank you.)

I think you are right. On fears? I just finished watching Nightmares tonight and something hit me. The Master places his hand against the cross and tells the Annoited One that he lives in morbid dread of what the cross represents, but is it a true threat? Yes it's painful. But if he can overcome his fear of it...

He also asks the Annoited One what he feared as a human. The Annoited One says, somewhat ironically, "monsters".
And the Master says: "If we aren't careful our fears will define us and limit us."

Then we jump to the boy who dreams up the spiders which attack him. When Willow and Xander interview him - they discover the boy is not afraid of spiders, he is feeling guilty for how they died. He believes he killed them, even though he'd been away at the time. And fears their wrath.
In a way - this boys nightmares of the spiders is not all that different than Spike's nightmares of killing Buffy or of the people talking in his head.

Then we see the other fears crystallized in the epsiode. Buffy's fear of her father abandoning her completely because she's not worthy of his attention. (A fear that ironically comes to fruitation but not for the reasons she fears in Season 3, Helpless.) And her even greater fear of being buried and digging out of her grave and becoming a vampires. (Another fear that comes to fruitation but not quite in the way she imagined. Just as the Master's fear of the wooden cross comes to fruitation but not in the way he imagined.)

Xander is the first of the SG ironically enough to face his fears head on, of course his fear may be the easiest to face. He punches out the Clown that tormented him as a child. As a result the Clown never rises again.

Willow never faces her stage-fright, the fear of being disrobed and so finds herself facing this fear and in a sense having it define her in Season 6 (I might be reaching here.)

Buffy doesn't truly face her's either. Not in the dream.
But in reality? She does more than once.

I've been told that if you have a reoccuring nightmare - the best way to end it is to turn around and face it head on. As Xander faced the Clown. Otherwise it will continue to haunt you and eventually may defeat you, so that it defines who you are. An old movie staring Dennis Quaid called Dreamscape explored this idea - where therapists jumped into people's dreams to help them defeat their monsters.

If we don't face fear...it can take over. Buffy's fear of being abandoned has in a sense been actualized over and over and over again. In Restless it is an overriding theme to her dream. "Where are my friends?" she keeps asking.
And in Season 6 - she wonders the same thing. She is also terrified of being buried and fighting the corspses she didn't save - a fear of failure - another nightmare we see echoed in numerous seasons - Fear Itself where she fights the corpses in the frat house and in Grave.

And Spike? His fears oddly enough seem to echo Buffy's and I would now say to some degree Xanders. (Seeing more and more parallels between X/S as we go forward.) He also fears abandonment, being left. So he tries to do the leaving first - with Dru. And with Harmony. But he can't quite bring himself to leave Buffy, even though at one point it appeared to be the healthiest thing for him to do. He fears the monster, not having the heart to stand up to it. Reminds me a lot of Xander in his parents basement at the end of his Restless dream. In fact it occurred to me last night that Principal Snyder's speech to Xander in that dream could also apply to Spike - who wishes to be a conquestador, is really at heart a comfortador, but by going after the one and denying the other has in a sense actualized his fear of being neither but a sacrifical lamb raised by mongrels on a sacrifical stone.

I find it interesting that these themes are being echoed across the seasons. (Nightmares was written by Joss Whedon by the way). So if we hide our nightmares, suppress them.
Keep them hidden deep away. They will continue to torment us. Buffy's certainly have. Even though her friends saw them in Nightmares. She never faced them really. Never brought it forth. Her fear that at heart she is nothing but a killer, a dark thing, which everyone will abandon. The lone slayer in her Restless Dream. Spike perhaps is the way for her to do so, perhaps by bringing forth what is within him, he can somehow help Buffy understand what is inside her and they can save each other?

Not sure that made sense. just adding my 2 cents for what it's worth.

SK

(Reassuring posts Rufus. Thanks.)

[> Interesting, bringing up the Gnostic Traditions - Buffy as a champion of the "faith".? -- Lijdrec, 22:42:32 10/04/02 Fri

Buffy may have been wearing a Dagmar Cross in that episode. The Dagmar Cross is named for Queen Dagmar, the wife of Waldemar II., king of Denmark (d. 1213) on whose corpse it was found around 1619. It is of Byzantine design and workmanship, and is of enamelled gold; on one side is the Crucifixion, and on the other side the half figure of our Lord in the centre, with the Virgin and St John the Evangelist on. either side, and St Chrysostom and St Basil above and below. Someone has also suggested that the icon above the door as Buffy walked in the church was of St Basil the Elder carrying his son, St. Basil, Doctor of the Church (I am unsure).

Of course, the cross affirms the divinity of Christ, . But the Dagmar cross also contains St. Basil (son of St. Basil the Elder). This St. Basil, Doctor of the Church, was instrumental in the victory of Nicene orthodoxy over Arianism in the Byzantine East; and the denunciation of (Gnostic) Arianism at the Council of Constantinople in 381-82 was due primarily to his efforts.

Basil also proclaimed the unity of the Trinity as one in ousia (substance) and went on to identify what differentiates each Person: each hypostasis is distinguished by certain modes of existence (tropoi hyparxeos) and individual characteristics: the Father is ungenerated, the Son begotten, and the Holy Spirit proceeding. This ended the concept of subordinationism within the Trinity. The Father's only priority is logical, not temporal, involving no superiority. All a non-Arian (non-Gnostic) view.

----------------------------------------------------------

So I wonder if this season is a struggle between Buffy as St. Basil seeking a unity of the Spike's Spirit and the "Other" - the Gnostic/Arian - seeking to keep Spike fragmented?

Yeah, all of that for such a brief conclusion, I am a man of few words.

[> [> Just to clarify.... -- Lijdrec, 23:02:26 10/04/02 Fri

By "faith" I meant the Slayer/Human/Secular viewpoint of the world, not my own. I'm not putting up Buffy as a defender of Catholicism, but pointing out the parallel symbology (Christianity v. Arianism/Gnosticim) that would signify the struggles that might happen this season. Not trying to use Buffy to promote Roman Catholicism.

[> [> [> My replies from the other board so they know what we are talking about. -- Rufus, 23:33:31 10/04/02 Fri

The thing is I don't see Buffy as a defender of "a faith" as much as a defender of "faith". ME has incorporated snippets from many faiths and woven it into their story....one that comes to mind is Buddhism..also the mention of Gaia and the interconnectedness of everything. The reference to "The Spark" does make me think of the Gnostic writings I've seen. The metaphor of demons as our personal fears in a form of say a "vampire" or any of the creatures of the week remind me that it is the demon in us all, namely the fear and results of fear, that keep us from ever connecting with all life. We are in a world that favors the material, what we can see or enjoy...so a show like Buffy reminds me that we do need more than creature comforts. The situation with Buffy/Spike, Xander/Anya is constantly going on because there has been rejection and fear that feed the schism between us all.

I still go back to an earlier post I made about the symbolic use of Tara that makes me think about the ongoing conflict between the demonic and human.....Tara represents love that bridges gender and form, compassion that is equal for all....just as Buffy has been exposed to the demonic, she has also seen examples of love that transcends form that Tara represented....there is a reason that Buffy keeps going through the same conflict over and over again...she is constantly brought back to Spike for a reason, one that could ultimately be beneficial. Specially now that Spike has a spark in him that may for now burn but may set into action events that will enlighten all.

Another hint at the Gnostic which seeks to fragment the Trinity of Demon, Human and Soul and Buffy's quest to unify them???

Does Buffy know that her purpose may be more than to kill demons? If we stop thinking of vampires as metaphors we get too literal about how to deal with the personal situations Buffy gets into....leading to judgement and calls of Buffy being a "slut" ect.....as a hero, Buffy goes through trials, trials aren't just specific deeds they can be ongoing situations that the hero learns through. Spike is such a trial....and he is in fact on his own journey that we don't know the destination of yet. All the characters on Buffy in the core group are heroes because they have all devoted their lives to something more than getting by in life. All go through trials...Anya, she is finding out if she can ever be that vengeance demon again, now that she knows what love is, losing Xander is her trial, test to see if she is more than a woman afraid of abandonment...Willow has to reconnect with the mundane and learn to control a power that could destroy the world, Dawn may just find out if she is still a key......all these stories all these trials all because Buffy became more than a solitary demon killer for the Council of Watchers.

[> [> [> [> So now I have to add my own replies???? -- Lijdrec, 00:31:56 10/05/02 Sat

1.....You'll note my clarification to Gadget's post above...... and spark v. soul... -- Lijdrec

I find it interesting that Spike in his less than sane moment refers to it as the "spark". Perhaps in his more sane moments he might call it a "soul". Another hint at the Gnostic which seeks to fragment the Trinity of Demon, Human and Soul and Buffy's quest to unify them???

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2....Well, I am thinking more about the plot of this season....:) -- Lijdrec

Yes, that is all so true... They all have their trials to face this season.


From the Plot side though perhaps the BB is using Spike and can only do so if Spike is fragmented/insane. Thus Spike is the Key (there's that word!) to the defeat of this 'evil'. Lessening the control of this BB and 'healing' Spike would be for Buffy a boon that might be the Key to the final solution (just had to use that phrase!).

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3.....Re: I agree......thanx!.!.! -- Lijdrec

Your esoterica was threatening to give me an aneurism!!!

I was at the limit of my weak philosophical understanding.

Guess that is why I am a lesser god.....







I should not have acknowledged those limits, should I??

;-.)

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That is all!

[> [> [> [> [> I can only hope it would be a "Happy Aneurism" -- Rufus, 00:57:47 10/05/02 Sat

Beneath You (the heavy bits) (*spoilers for Beneath You*) -- Betheldene, 18:48:14 10/04/02 Fri

The last scene of Beneath You made me feel a few things and I just had a few comments I wanted to ponder, including some heavy topics and a few random comments. Feel free to respond to any or either, or none.

I watched all previous acts with ìCrazy!Spikeî with some interest, but I really felt the impact of Spike's resouling in the church scene. His mental problems are messy in a way that makes it all the more realistic, particularly with the sexual subtext.

...and I think he is broken. Broken, broken, broken.

This scene was also the first time that I really thought of Spike as an abuse victim - not especially by Buffy - but by being vamped. Now that he is resouled, that scene gives me the strongest feeling that he was violated. Something - the vampire "infection"- took over his body, his mind, his personality and used them to do damaging, horrible things that he wouldn't have done in his "right" (souled) mind.

And, he doesn't get to point at some other person and say they did those bad things to him, because the person who damaged him was himself (as a demon).

And, he doesn't get to be the victim, because he was the abuser.

And, he also has to live with the fact that Spike's darkest deeds all came from things that were present in his own personality, but were twisted and distorted for evil, so on top of being violated, he also gets to feel responsibility, be abuser and victim rolled into one. So there's another level of metaphor to add to the vampire/victim relationship, victim turns into abuser. It's very heavy stuff.

I'll clarify an earlier point, that I never saw Spike as an abuse victim before (he got the soul). That's probably because he was a vampire and he already had a twisted world-view of relationships (emotional and sexual).

Smashed: ìHello, vampire. I'm supposed to be treading on the dark side.î

I could not always tell whether any of Buffy's actions, the physical beatings, were really hurting him. Or, if his feelings were hurt, he seemed pretty resilient the next time we would see him, suggesting that he ìbounces backî pretty quickly. Part of the reason why I think Spike was affected so deeply by Buffy, without having his soul, is because he has an obsessive personality, with not much emotional control. So wanting something he can't have and not being able to stop himself from wanting it, and not seeing the line he shouldn't cross until after he almost crossed it... and then still wanting it, so trying a different tack... the Buffy obsession never stopped, maybe the soul will change it now.

As for Buffy, I think that Buffy always treated Spike in accordance with what he was *at the time*, so her horror at how he changed:

Beneath You: ìWhy would you do that?î

has to partially reflect her realisation that all of her actions, and all of his past actions are now retroactively felt by someone who has a full and complete set of human emotions and perceptions. For instance, when she punched him to a bloody pulp in the alleyway in Dead Things, she had no way of knowing that he would eventually become human and (maybe) have a perception of her physically abusing him. (From BY, I get the impression he really doesn't like her touching him.)

The whole scene was just incredibly sad and moving to me, and after this I really can't see him in a physical relationship with Buffy again. There is just too much damage there.

On a side note, I am wondering whether to apply a grammatical rule of thumb to Spike's ramblings to decipher who is saying them. I'm wondering whenever he talks of people in third person, ìtheyî ìsheî he seems to be talking as William referencing them from a slightly removed perspective (ie not strictly first person)?

I kind of think that Xander may be making with the Sybil jokes some time in the future.

I can't say for sure whether Spike's personalities are going to integrate or become more separate, but I'm interested to see how it goes and I really would like to see Xander or Giles reactions to when the William personality starts babbling.

Thanks all for reading.

[> Re: Beneath You (the heavy bits) (*spoilers for Beneath You*) -- Veelana, 19:13:49 10/04/02 Fri

I think he gets to be all the things you said - just at different times. I wrote about ny theory a little further down (crazy late night ramblings) and I think theres a lot more xxx!Spikes coming.

Whether they¥ll be together sometime soon or will be drifting further apart remains to be seen - I think it depends (partly) on Buffy and how she is going to tread him. I¥m not saying that she alone is the one responsible for what happend (tere¥s something called free will) but he did it for her, even though she had been using him (for sex) beating him up and braking his heart.

If Buffy can accept what happend to Spike and if she gives off the slightest "I like you" Vibes, all the Spikes will be after her, because, as you said, he has an adictive personalitie.

Vee

[> [> Re: Beneath You (the heavy bits) (*spoilers for Beneath You*) -- Betheldene, 02:21:07 10/05/02 Sat

Vee wrote:
"If Buffy can accept what happend to Spike and if she gives off the slightest "I like you" Vibes, all the Spikes will be after her, because, as you said, he has an adictive personalitie."


I think once Spike's human personality starts asserting itself, the issue of Spike's obsession with Buffy may not be an issue. Just a sense that now that he is no longer under the influence of lack-of-soul, he has free will to choose/decide whether he is still in love with Buffy. It's hard to say, he is kind of brand new at the moment.

[> Re: Beneath You (the heavy bits) (*spoilers for Beneath You*) -- Miss Edith, 19:29:15 10/04/02 Fri

I so agree with your last point about wanting to see Xander and Giles's reaction to the new Spike. So far Spike has mainly been interacting with Buffy. I am dying to know how Xander will respond to Spike's insanity, particularly as he always seemed to like Spike more than Angel. The two of them shared several buddy moments such as playing pool together in Triangle. And in Spiral Xander lights Spike's cigarette. Perhaps knowing Spike activately sought a soul will make Xander look at Spike differently from Angel whom he never trusted. With Spike I always got the sense there could have been a friendship and Xander felt the need to keep reminding himself Spike was a vampire. I would love to see those two as buddies.
And Giles does suggest in season 4 that Spike has a higher purpose. In Restless he is teaching Spike to be a watcher. I really hope Giles does return to Sunnydale and offer Spike advice. If anyoen needs a mentor it's Spike and there was a suggestion of Giles being Spike's father figure in TR.
And I never felt in BY that Spike was cowering from Buffy's touch because he was scarred by the beatings. I always felt he pretty much shrugged them off. He was a vampire and pretty much got off on violence himself, and shared many punch ups with Buffy in the past. The beating in DT always concerned me more for the impact it had on Buffy as a person, rahter than the effect it would have on Spike.
It was the emotional abuse that got to Spike I always felt. Being made to feel worthless, a filthy evil thing. Buffy treated him like an inanimate object incapable of true feelings, but simply a sexual convienience there to boost her self-esteem and tell her he loved her. He was literally a living sex bot. Buffy did indeed feed off Spike's flesh in season 6, now it looks like both off them will be handling the consequences of their messy relationship.

[> [> Xander and Spike/Angel(*spoilers for Beneath You*) -- Betheldene, 02:04:52 10/05/02 Sat

Going off my own topic for a bit, I have always believed that Xander actually gets along better with Spike than Angel because of their personalities. I don't think Xander's hatred of Angel is totally because he is a vampire. I think Xander has problems with him in general. For instance, Xander does not want to be usurped as an authority figure (Graduation Day Xander says "I'm still key guy, right?").

Angel, as it has been shown on his own series, has a problem relating to people on a friendly level, and he always takes the lead. I think the people who work for him do think of him as a friend, but are not relaxed about it, they also think of him as an authority figure, "the boss" or someone with power. Whether or not Wesley was technically the leader for a while, Angel was still the leader of AI, in spirit, I think. Angel doesn't make guy friends that easily.

Xander, I find, likes to hang out with the guys like Tito, etc. He is much more social, and I think he prefers Spike, evil and chipped, to Angel, good and souled, just on the basis that Spike is just one of the guys, very sociable, and Spike doesn't get a higher role in the Scooby Gang pecking order. So, if Xander wasn't given reasons to distrust Spike (Buffy, Anya), I could **easily** see them becoming friends, and yes, I think Xander has to remind himself that Spike is a vampire frequently, because Xander has a history of relating to Spike as an individual.

[> [> [> Re: Xander and Spike/Angel (*spoilers for Beneath You*) -- Scroll, 08:20:20 10/05/02 Sat

Xander also never allowed himself to ever see Angel as anything but competition since at the time Xander still had a crush on Buffy. Angel was the suave, well-dressed older guy that Xander couldn't match up to. Whereas Xander didn't think Spike ever had a chance with Buffy, and having grown up some, Xander wasn't as insecure about another guy. Also, pecking order definitely plays into it. Xander and Spike never try to be alpha wolf, Buffy is alpha. But I think Angel is naturally an alpha too, even though he played beta to Buffy. But that alpha-ness (is that a word?) might have come across to Xander, who didn't like the guy in the first place.

Spike's scene in the church was incredible, and the more I see his pain, I have to appreciate how hard it must be for Angel to keep his sanity in tact. Like Spike says, Angel makes it look easy to be a mass-murderer with a soul, someone who actually *cares* that he was once a terrible monster. Darn the crossover ban -- I really wanted to see Angel talk with souled Spike. Would've been fascinating.

[> [> [> Disagree -Xander was/is jealous -- Spike Lover, 10:42:05 10/05/02 Sat

Xander hated vamps in general because of his first friend. And he was ravingly jealous of Angel. I think he was soft on Spike for one reason.

Spike suddenly was chipped and could not hurt him. Spike longed for Buffy as Xander does and had about an equal chance with her (or so he thought.)

Xander will never befriend Spike because Spike has suddenly succeeded where he never could and also succeeded where he had. (Anya)

[> Really interesting POV! -- HonorH, 20:32:17 10/04/02 Fri

Spike as abuse victim--or really William as abuse victim--is an interesting way of looking at it. William's soul is innocent of all but desiring desperately to be *seen*. Spike the vampire is guilty only of following his nature. This new, corporate creature, though, feels the full impact of what following that vampiric nature means: killing humans, destroying lives. Which is precisely what Angel said in S1: "Can you imagine what it's like to have done everything I've done--and to care?"

As for he and Buffy, yes, I think the physical relationship is over. He still loves her. Of that I'm certain. But a sexual relationship would do neither any favors right now. He needs to learn how to be Spike-with-a-soul, and she's just learning how to be Buffy again.

[> Interesting post ...on touching -- shadowkat, 20:42:34 10/04/02 Fri

Interesting post...and here I was certain that I was completely burned out on this topic and you come along with a new take. Or one I missed.

"As for Buffy, I think that Buffy always treated Spike in accordance with what he was *at the time*, so her horror at how he changed:

Beneath You: ìWhy would you do that?î

has to partially reflect her realisation that all of her actions, and all of his past actions are now retroactively felt by someone who has a full and complete set of human emotions and perceptions. For instance, when she punched him to a bloody pulp in the alleyway in Dead Things, she had no way of knowing that he would eventually become human and (maybe) have a perception of her physically abusing him. (From BY, I get the impression he really doesn't like her touching him.)

The whole scene was just incredibly sad and moving to me, and after this I really can't see him in a physical relationship with Buffy again. There is just too much damage there. "

Reading your post brought to mind the Bronze fight scene between Anya and Spike again. How incredibly ironic.
Buffy leaps to Anya's defense. When in reality, of the two of them, (as far as we know), Anya is the more demon and evil. Spike has a soul and as far as we know Anya does not.
She isn't human at all. So Buffy jumps in and attacks the souled being, the innocent party (Anya is hardly innocent - the whole Ronnie thing is her doing after all). But of course Buffy didn't know about Spike at the time, only Anya and Spike did. (About Spike being ensouled, I mean). So I wonder if that hit her in the church as well?

I doubt we'll see Buffy punching Spike willy nilly any more.
She may actually think twice about it unless of course he goads her into it as Angel occassionally did.

On your other more interesting point:"From BY, I get the impression he really doesn't like her touching him.)"

I got the same impression. But not just from BY, also from Lessons - when she tries to touch his chest and he backs away from her. At first I was certain that It's not touching he seems to mind so much as the idea of her touching that area where the Lurker demon re-ensouled him.

But I wonder if you may not be right as well? I've thought for some time that the reason for no sexual relationship this year won't be Buffy but Spike. I don't see William going there with her again. And in the church scene he sort of tells her - we can do that but it will only be a emotionless act, merely servicing. No meaning. (He does not trust her or himself enough to ever go back there emotionally.) You're right too much damage there. And I do believe that the person who spoke during that portion of the scene was William or at least a combo of the two. "Noo Touching! Am I flesh? ..."
"Service the girl". The dialogue alone makes me think this.

No, I can't imagine William/Spike combo willingly entering a physical relationship with Buffy right now. Maybe in distant future? Who knows. But not now. Which is interesting - because everyone else I've read has said they can't see Buffy doing it. I can see Buffy doing it over William. (not that I really see her going there again either. personally I don't want her in a physical relationship with anyone this year but that's another topic). The reason I couldn't see it happening after SR and the reason most of the fanfic I've read post Grave doesn't work - is I can't imagine the ensouled Spike/William doing it again. He feels too much shame and is too tormented.

Oh, good idea on Xander. Really looking forward to seeing how Xander and Willow and Dawn and finally Giles handle Crazy!Spike.

[> Re: Beneath You (the heavy bits) (*spoilers for Beneath You*) -- yuri, 23:01:45 10/05/02 Sat

This scene was also the first time that I really thought of Spike as an abuse victim - not especially by Buffy - but by being vamped.

I think I would say that the "abuse," at least in terms of a perversion of what should be that results in harm of a person or thing, is Spike's gaining his soul. (you say, I never saw Spike as an abuse victim before (he got the soul).) The soul is what does him "harm," not the Vamping, really, and in keeping with Spike's generally masochistic and self-deprecating nature, he brought his soul on himself!

Season 7 Themes (Spoilers on ep 1-2 and Future Speculation) -- Yoda, 20:05:56 10/04/02 Fri

One of the themes for this season is back to the beginning. If we use the Hero's Journey as a blue print then this is the phase of the journey where the Hero must face all their old demons and apply the lessons she learned the first time round to defeat them. If she can't do that then she hasn't learned anything from all her trials and tribulations.

Another theme is that everthing is connected. There is a theory called the Great Chain of Being. It is a belief that all existing things are connected and that there are ìlinksî joining all things, from least to greatest, in an unbroken series from inanimate particles of matter to the deity. All of creation have some position on the chain. One persons actions affect everyone and everything else on this chain. When the natural order is upset, the bottom moves towards the top and as a result, chaos sets in.

In Lessons the HS basement is described as a Labyrinth. A Labyrinth is a type of maze and is associated with the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur. In the Greek story of the labyrinth, the maze is the home of the monstrous Minotaur, half man, half bull, a dark, violent, unformed but partly human soul, who devours anyone trapped there. The labyrinths inital meaning is therefore a place of hopelessness, confusion, and death at the hands of something bestial. But in the story, the heroine Ariadne and her lover Theseus conquer the labyrinth. she gives him a ball of string to lead him out again, and holds onto the other end as he desceneds, and she gives him a sword so that he can kill the Minotaur and emerge unharmed. Masculine and feminine virtues--planning and attacking, weaving plots and stabbing enemies---combine to defeat the peril. Thus, the labyrinth can also represent the maze unraveling itself, and the soul defeating the terror at its core.

The classical labryinth is made of seven circuits. The seven circuits represent the seven paths that lead to the center or sourse and then back out again transformed. The classical labyrinth has an association with Christianity. A cross is the starting & ending point used to construct this labyrinth. The cross that Spike hugs & the cross that Buffy wears at the end of Beneath Me represents the end of the journey as well as the beginning. He and Buffy both emerged at the end of Gave from a symbolic death & resurrection and are ready to embark on a new journey in which they will apply what they learned the first time round.

I believe that the seven apparations of the Big Bads (Buffy included) represent the 7 circuits of the labyrinth that Buffy will go through in her journey. For instance the first circuit as represented by the Master will be about power. What did Buffy learn in her battle with the Master about power. As Buffy figures out the answers to each of these questions she will advance through the labyrith. Buffy appears as the last apparition because the final battle will be when she confronts the Beast that Lies Beneath---her inner beast/dragon. The fact that she appears confident in this scene is a good sign that she emerges victorious and fully empowered.

When Buffy enters the Lybrinth of the HS basement she is not alone. Dawn and Spike are there. I believe they are representative of the beasts that lies beneath Buffy. They are both her shadow selves. Spike represents all that she hates about herself. The dark aspect of her nature. Dawn represents all that she thinks is good in herself. But remember that moral superiority is something that needs to be battled as well. For there lies harsh judgement and lack of compassion. Spike's symbol is the Minotaur and I think Dawn's is the Dragon. Remember she breathed fire in Afterlife much like a dragon. Then in beneath you she threatened to set Spike on fire if he touched Buffy. I think that at the end of the journey Buffy will defeat the beasts that lie beneath by acknowledging both aspects of herself. For in acknowledging her darkness she will learn humility and she will be able to mete out justice with mercy.

I think that the sourse of the apparations that appear to Spike in Lessons are manifestations of the God Janus also known as Chaos. It said that we were going back to the beginning not the Bang, not the Word, the true beginning. Well before the creation was chaos. In mythology when the elements separated, chaos took on the form of Janus. Janus is said to be ìthe god of gods,î from whom all the other gods had their origin. Janus is the god of ìbeginningsî and ìendingsî and is represented as having two faces, one face reflecting on the past while the other face gazes forward to the future. Biblically this corresponds with Christ declaring that he is ìthe Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Lastî Janus is also the god of doors and thresholds. His symbols are the key that locks and unlocks the door and the stick, staff, or scepter that drives away those who have not earned the right to cross the threshold. The scepter is shown on the left of the figure (i.e., on the side of the male face) and represents ìthe hand of Justiceî. The key is shown on the right (i.e., on the side of the female face) and represents ìthe hand of Mercyî.

I believe that in the Great Chain of Being Buffy's place in the chain is closest to the source of all of us. She acts as its right and left hands meting out Justice with Mercy.

I also believe that Dawn and Spike represent Buffy's Left Hand and Right Hand. Right now they are at war with each other. But at the end of Buffy's journey I hope they will accept each other again much as they did in this scene from Tough Love:

DAWN: You wanna know what I'm scared of, Spike? ... Me. (tearfully) Right now, Glory thinks Tara's the key. But I'm the key, Spike. I am. And anything that happens to Tara ... is 'cause of me. Your bruises, your limp ... that's all me too. I'm like a lightning rod for pain and hurt. (crying) And everyone around me suffers and dies. I ... must be something so horrible ... to cause so much pain ... and evil.
SPIKE: (firmly) Rot.
DAWN: (teary) What do you know?
SPIKE: I'm a vampire. I know somethin' about evil. You're not evil.
DAWN: Maybe ... I'm not evil. But I don't think I can be good. (looks up at Spike with a hopeful expression)
SPIKE: (considers) Well, I'm not good, and I'm okay.
(Curtesy of Psyche)

That's my speculation on where I think we will end up. Of course it is not the destination that matters its the journey and I'm sure it will be a wild ride.

Comments on the above are welcome but I would especially like to know what you think the different lessons to be learnt are. For instance, I think the lesson Buffy should have learnt from her battle with the Master is that real power is the power of choice. That we are the masters of our destiny. We make our own realities and that our fate in not written in stone or in some dusty book of prophesy. Once we realize this we must take responsibility for our choices and are therefore no longer a victim of fate. Anya tried to blame her decision to become a vengence demon on Xander but as Xander said sooner or later that excuse stops working.

"The Prisoner," BtVS S4/S6/S7, and the trials of #17 (re-post/re-made/re-modeled) (Spoilers S7) -- cjl, 21:37:02 10/04/02 Fri

All right, it's reached the tipping point. Rahael, Arethusa, and now auroramama, have contributed such interesting comments about the Prisoner and Spike's new role as #17, that I have to bring back the original post, with brand spanking new comments at the end:
______________________________________
From 7/30/02:

In one of those bizarre cosmic convergences that only watching way too much television can provide, Sunday night in NYC saw the broadcast of two of the strangest, most surreal hours of episodic TV ever created: "Restless," the fourth season finale of BtVS, and (three hours later) "Fall Out"--the series finale of The Prisoner. In conversations with fellow BtVS fans, I've often said that the only series on TV before Buffy to ever truly challenge some of my higher brain functions was The Prisoner. That's usually as far as I've gone with connecting the two; I always thought they were coming from entirely different directions and saying different things, and I never really tried to analyze them in tandem. But the synchronicity of Sunday night is just too great to resist, and I'm going to give it a shot. Besides, Leo McKern--the wonderful star of Rumpole of the Bailey, and a key player in the Prisoner series--just died at the age of 82, and I can feel his spirit berating me in that gruff, sandpaper-like voice we all loved so much. It's going to be seat of the pants analysis folks, so bear with me...

Since this is a Buffy board, I'm going to assume everyone here knows the background and events of "Restless," its significance within the series, and has at least skimmed shadowkat's detailed four-part analysis of the symbolism within each Scooby's dream. (And if you haven't--for shame. BAD lurker. Go to shadowkat's web site immediately and catch up.) Given that, I'm going to run down the plot and symbolism behind the Prisoner finale and sift in the Buffy material as we go along.

As I'm sure most of you are aware, The Prisoner was the brainchild of actor Patrick McGoohan, who was the star of the smash 1960s British TV series Danger Man. Sick of the daily grind of the series, McGoohan went to his money man, Lew Grade, the head of ITC studios, and told Sir Lew he wanted to do something different. McGoohan spun out the fascinating concept: a British secret agent, who had just resigned from his super-secret organization, is kidnapped and taken to a mysterious Village for the single purpose of breaking his will and extracting the reason for his resignation. (Tellingly, even though the series took place in the middle of the Cold War, it is never revealed which "side" runs the Village.) The agent, dubbed Number Six by the Village hierarchy, battles the minions of the Village autocrat, No. 2, who uses various methods--psychological, biochemical and electromechanical--to break him down. It is one man against the system, in a battle for his soul.

Amazingly, Grade gave him the money.

The series, heavily symbolic and damn near allegorical in spots, was a spectacular ratings flop on both British and U.S. television. Even though they were initially told they would go 11 more episodes, McGoohan and his staff were informed in mid-1968 that they had one episode to wrap it all up. Using his emergency reserve episode ("Once Upon a Time," co-starring McKern as No. 2) as a lead-in, McGoohan wrote "Fall Out" over the course of one weekend, where Number Six would finally go behind the scenes and meet the mysterious Number One, the prime mover of the Village. "Fall Out" is, in turn, fascinating, wickedly funny, and utterly incomprehensible, with enough eye-popping symbolism to make any self-respecting ATP poster drool.

As we pick up from where "Once Upon a Time" left off, Number Six has just defeated Number Two in the ultimate mano a mano, "I'll break you or you'll break me" competition, and the Village bureaucrats, big softies that they are, dump Number Two's body in the portable living quarters they'd been using for the week-long "brainwash-athon" and haul it out. Number Six is then escorted through the labyrinthine underground corridors of the Village, emerging in a great chamber. The Village president, resplendent in robes and powdered wig, graciously explains that the Prisoner has beaten them, and has proven himself a true individual in a land of sheep. The Village has one final offer: we'll give you back your house, your life, your freedom--or, you can lead us and know true power. The Prisoner, inscrutable, eases into the ridiculously ornate throne awaiting him, and sits back to observe the proceedings of the Village assembly before deciding. He takes in the view: the assembly, seated like the Lords of Parliament in session, are identified as "anarchists," "radicals," "conservatives," "entertainers," and other descriptive sociopolitical nouns, but they're all dressed in the same white hooded robes and half-black/half-white tragicomedy masks. The feel of the proceedings is almost Victorian-era, but there's a ton of futuristic gadgetry in the room. Ominously, modern-looking soldiers (for 1968) with submachine guns keep guard; and, built into a spire near the center of the chamber, the watchful eye of Number One keeps its own record of events, occasionally expressing its displeasure with a wordless, sonic howl.

In contrast to the Prisoner's "healthy" rebellion against the system, the President brings out two other rebellious souls for punishment: a lanky young man in top hat, disheveled suit, unbuttoned shirt and gold chain, with an obnoxious attitude and a penchant for Negro spirituals (think Roger Daltrey gone to seed). The President admits that boys will be boys and Youth is rebellious, but he tells the punk you've got to grow up sometime. The kid responds by running amok through the chamber, flattening some of the assembly drones, overturning tables and getting the soldiers all riled up. He finally stops in front of the Prisoner's throne, and in a baffling, rapid-fire exchange of fifties and sixties slang, they seem to reach a sort of understanding. The kid calms down, winks at the Prisoner, and goes back to his confinement.

Next, the President brings Number Two out of storage, revives him, and displays him to the Assembly as a source of amusement. He's also been brought back as a cautionary tale about men of power who bite the hand that feeds them--but dying has, in a sense, liberated Number Two from his service to the Village. He expresses admiration for the Prisoner, and only wishes he could have resisted as long or as well. In his first act of defiance in decades, Number Two walks toward the glass and steel eye of Number One and tells whoever is behind the curtain to Stuff It. The eye responds with a shriek and an impotent blast of smoke. Number Two, satisfied, returns to his shackles.

At that point, the Prisoner himself is asked to address the assembly. He goes up to the podium, hoping to sway the faceless multitudes with his speech, but every time he starts, the assembly drowns him out. Frustrated, he looks down at the President, who gives him an almost sympathetic expression of "What did you expect?"

The preliminaries are over. It's time to meet Number One.

A transport tube takes the Prisoner inside the spire; he walks by the space-age confinement cells holding the Kid and Number Two, and heads up the spiral staircase leading to the control room. He sees a figure in yet another white hooded robe observing the events in the chamber. There is no dialogue, only the shrill beeping of the equipment, as he approaches. The figure turns to face him and holds out a small crystal ball. The Prisoner touches the crystal, and he sees his own face shouting what has come to be his credo: "I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own." Prison bars slam in front of the face in the crystal--once, twice, three times. The globe drops to the floor and shatters. Recovering from the shock, the Prisoner looks up to confront Number One. He rips off the tragicomedy mask, only to reveal an ape mask beneath. He rips off the ape mask, and reveals...

His own face.

Eye. I. 1.

Amidst peals of insane laughter, the Prisoner chases his Doppelganger around the control room, but his other self slips out through an escape hatch in the roof. No matter. The Prisoner has a job to finish. He frees the Kid and Number Two, and arming themselves with machine guns, they shoot their way through the Assembly and reach the hotel room on wheels at the other side of the chamber. Driven by Number Two's diminuitive, silent butler, the lorry crashes through a subterranean gate and heads out on the open road to Freedom. Meanwhile, the President and what's left of the Assembly are trying to regroup, when they notice a LOT of smoke coming out of the spire. Panicked, the President orders the evacuation of the Village, and an army of helicopters take off with the citizenry just before the rocket (yes, that's what it was) blasts off and decimates the chamber.

Denouement: back in London. The Kid decides to get out on the highway, and hitch-hike to his next destination. Number Two returns to Parliament, and the life he abandoned years ago. And the Prisoner? With the butler by his side, he returns to his old house and takes his car, a sporty Lotus 7, out for a spin. The final shot has him peeling down the highway--ending the series the same way it started...

Well! Where to begin?

The first point of comparison between Buffy and The Prisoner is the premise of The Prisoner: he's trapped in the Village, and unable to escape. The Village is an extraordinarily pleasant place (it's an actual hotel/resort in Wales), relaxed and filled with friendly people--but it's also a deathtrap for anybody who wants to keep his soul. Does this sound familiar? On the surface, Sunnydale is a nice place to raise your kids, with a quick and easy commute to Los Angeles--it just so happens to be located on top of a Hellmouth, with a death rate about 300 times the national average. Similarly, just as Number Six's sense of personal integrity and highly evolved moral sense keep him imprisoned, Buffy's devotion to her duty and her own highly evolved moral sense refuse to allow her to abandon her birthright. Number Six could have a nice cozy life if he would just freakin' talk, and Buffy could have had a slayage-free life if she just kept going after Becoming Part II. However, both heroes refuse to compromise their moral standards, and they remain trapped in their respective prisons.

Getting back to our main comparison: in "Fall Out," the Prisoner is offered--and rejects---the fruits of a corrupt society, choosing to free his associates and deal with society on his own terms; in "Restless," Buffy is told by the First Slayer that a Slayer is alone ("No Friends"), but she defies her ancient heritage to regain control of her own fate. Both choices have enormous costs (the bloody violence in "Fall Out," and Buffy's sacrifice in "The Gift")--but our heroes will not submit to fate or destiny without a fight.

There is also a correlation between the joining of Willow, Buffy, Giles, and Xander in "Primevil" (and "Restless") and the teaming of the Kid, Number Two, the Butler and the Prisoner. The three subsidiary figures in each scenario represent aspects of the hero's personality: in Buffy's case, Willow is the spirit, Xander the heart, and Giles the intellect; in the Prisoner's case, the Kid represents the Prisoner's spirit of youthful rebellion, Number Two is that youthful spirit tempered by experience, and the Butler--well, the Butler is a complex symbol. All during the series, he represented the silent power behind Number Two, but when he attaches himself to the Prisoner at the end of the series, he's more of a reminder that no matter how much we want to go in our own direction, we can't isolate ourselves completely. (We have to deal with the world.)

Expanding our scope and looking back on S6, you can see themes from the Prisoner running through Buffy's story arc, tricks of perception and reality straining Buffy's mind to the limit. "Normal Again," with just a little rewriting, could have easily been a Prisoner episode. Imagine Number Six waking up in the asylum with his beloved finacee at his side, telling him that life in the secret service and his imprisonment the Village were just a horrible delusion--all he has to do is unburden his soul about both and he'll be free to go home. (More S6 similarities: The crystal ball in "Hell's Bells" could easily double as the crystal ball from "Fall Out," each offering not a glimpse into the future, but a glimpse into the viewer's own soul.)

(Addendum 10/4/02)

And now, of course, with Spike's reincarnation as #17 in S7, we see the commonalities running through his plotline as well; as Rahael pointed out below, Doug Petrie and Joss Whedon are huge fans of The Prisoner, and Spike's incarceration in S4 was a deliberate evocation of the series. The chip, although a direct allusion to "Clockwork Orange," achieves the same "panopticon" effect of The Village's omnipresent video cameras and constant attempts to modify its inhabitants' behavior.

Also, the Initiative's mixture of science and magic mirrors the Village's combination of futuristic technology and Victorian-era motifs, each a perverted attempt to bring the old ways into the future. As Age said below, it's no coincidence that the first time we see The Initiative, we notice weather balloons--the infamous "Rover" ball guarding the perimiters of the Village.

Poor Spike. He's also been kidnapped, shanghaied from his quest to transform himself, and brought back to the Village (Sunnydale), where the unseen Number 1 tries to manipulate him into returning to his old patterns. As I said earlier, he has a much tougher road ahead, because he is a much more social creature than Number Six, and much more susceptible to psychological torture. Besides, Number 1 isn't just keeping an eye on him from the Control Room--he's in Spike's HEAD.

(I was going to add that Spike has an additonal problem--his soul has driven him completely bonkers, while Number Six was about as self-possessed as Buffy on her most anally-fixated day--but I'm not sure that's true. It's been suggested that the entire run of The Prisoner is Number Six's nervous breakdown--his crack-up when he realizes his life-long espionage career is no longer morally tenable--with the confrontation with his Shadow at the end of "Fall Out" the final psychotic break. Maybe he has more in common with Crazy!Spike than we think!)

So will Spike be able to work through his madness, throw off the voices of coercion and self-doubt, and forge a new path, one distinctly his own? Will he (or Buffy, for that matter) ever be able to escape the Village?

[> In case you couldn't read it, 10/4/02 addendum reprinted here: -- cjl, 21:44:31 10/04/02 Fri

And now, of course, with Spike's reincarnation as #17 in S7, we see the commonalities running through his plotline as well; as Rahael pointed out below, Doug Petrie and Joss Whedon are huge fans of The Prisoner, and Spike's incarceration in S4 was a deliberate evocation of the series. The chip, although a direct allusion to "Clockwork Orange," achieves the same "panopticon" effect of The Village's omnipresent video cameras and constant attempts to modify its inhabitants' behavior.

Also, the Initiative's mixture of science and magic mirrors the Village's combination of futuristic technology and Victorian-era motifs, each a perverted attempt to bring the old ways into the future. As Age said below, it's no coincidence that the first time we see The Initiative, we notice weather balloons--the infamous "Rover" guarding the perimiters of the Village.

Poor Spike. He's also been kidnapped, shanghaied from his quest to transform himself, and brought back to the Village (Sunnydale), where the unseen Number 1 tries to manipulate him into returning to his old patterns. As I said earlier, he has a much tougher road ahead, because he is a much more social creature than Number Six, and much more susceptible to psychological torture. Besides, Number 1 isn't just
keeping an eye on him from the Control Room--he's in Spike's HEAD.

(I was going to add that Spike has an additional problem--his soul has driven him completely bonkers, while Number Six was about as self-possessed as Buffy on her most anally-fixated day--but I'm not sure that's true. It's been suggested that the entire run of The Prisoner is Number Six's nervous breakdown--his crack-up when he realizes his life-long espionage career was morally untenable--with the confrontation with his Shadow at the end of "Fall Out" the big psychotic break. Maybe he has more in common with Crazy!Spike than we think!)

So will Spike be able to work through his madness, throw off the voices of coercion and self-doubt, and forge a new path, one distinctly his own? Will he (or Buffy, for that matter) ever be able to escape the Village?

[> [> Is the Prisoner ever re-run? -- Isabel, 09:58:31 10/05/02 Sat

I've heard you and others talking about how good it is, and I don't think I've ever seen it in TV guide or anywhere. I know this is dating myself, but I was in diapers when it aired.

[> [> [> Re: Is the Prisoner ever re-run? -- leslie, 11:21:16 10/05/02 Sat

It's fairly easily available on video, and I have even seen it for rent in chain rental places--usually in the "cult" or "sci-fi" sections.

[> Thanks, cjl - "The Prisoner" sounds fascinating! -- Scroll, 08:00:42 10/05/02 Sat

I remember reading posts about Foucault's panopticon and Prof. Walsh spying on Riley and Buffy in the bedroom (one of the most creepy scenes, IMO) so I guess this is sort of like "The Prisoner". Riley is every bit the prisoner in S4, he just doesn't know it until half way through. He breaks free of the Initiative and resists Adam's chip controlling him, escaping back to the real world.

[> Re:'The Prisoner' Spoilers for Buffy, S4,6,7; Pris. Firefly -- Age, 11:21:11 10/05/02 Sat

Thanks for reposting your comments about 'The Prisoner.' I haven't watched the series for years but it was the focus of many a discussion(and rewatching) with friends. There is this sense of shock and betrayal on the part of The Prisoner. He relies very much on his own instinct(that's what made him a top spy), but once his doubts about the integrity of the side he's working for get too great he reacts with anger at the thought that he may have been, like the line from season four of 'Buffy', myth-taken, believing that the world operates on the simple notion of sides, (as the black and white faces in the court scene of the series finale suggest), ie he has acted in accordance with the myths that he's been taught rather by his own judgement about what is.

'The Prisoner' is a reaction to the very British tradition of societal hierarchy where your betters, well, know best ie a patriarchal society. It is a society based on trust of a certain echelon of society over your own judgement; or, if trust is not gained, fear of punishment. You know your place, you know your number. The basis of the series is the question of how to manage the individual in society: is it possible to have a society of free thinking individuals and still maintain the common good, ie can individuals take personal responsibility and make adult, human choices; or must the individual be broken and his loyalty to the collective/top dog be paramount?

As the series begins the Prisoner is withdrawing from his life in order to think things through. Partly he is aghast at his new vision of society as represented by the Village, and simply wants to escape it. It certainly seems that he tends towards isolation. But, the vision won't go away because that society won't go away and he's too stubborn and honest to revert back to myth, and his integrity won't let him join the hierarchy. As the series unfolds, he begins to learn how to wield power where supposedly all the inmates/guests have none (It's about power!) When he gets back to London, the integration of his new vision is expressed in the door automatically closing as it would have done in The Village.

In regards to 'Buffy' ep 'Normal Again' and series 'Firefly', the episode called 'Living in Harmony' also presents the question of what is real when it is the Prisoner who is the only one, in this make-believe cowboy plot acted out by members of the Village, who is able to distinguish in the end reality from scripted role. I wonder if the Firefly ship's name, 'Serenity' owes a little to the title of this 'Prisoner' ep title?

Thanks for the reposting.

Age.