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Angel and Jonah -- Malandanza, 23:37:22 10/04/02 Fri

Well, you're probably thinking "belly of the whale... Angel in a box... yeah, we get it." But I'm really more interested in how Jonah ended up in the whale's belly and the parallels with Angel.

Jonah: chosen by God to serve His prophet
Angel: chosen by the PTB to be their Warrior for Good

Jonah: avoids the command of God and flees his destiny
Angel: avoids the PTB, running after Darla and Dru in spite of their intervention and flirting with a W&H demon to open a portal to the worst hell dimension -- ignoring his mission to pursue his own objectives

Jonah: no direct action -- he's not turned into a pillar of salt or struck blind on the road to Damascus -- God sends in a storm and the sailors do the rest
Angel: no divine intervention to sink him beneath the ocean -- they just waylay Cordelia so Connor will have free reign.

Then, of course, there's the entombment.

If Angel follows Jonah's course, should we expect to see him with a renewed sense of purpose? Jonah headed straight to Ninevah to preach destruction, just as God wanted. WIll Angel now set aside his own selfish desires to fulfill his role as Warrior for Good? And will he become disillusioned, as did Jonah, if his deeds are arbitrarily rendered worthless (as was Jonah's prophecy when Ninevah repented)?

Malandanza -- who's reading Moby Dick right now

[> Glad you posted on this board -- Rahael, 06:07:50 10/05/02 Sat

I thought it was there, just couldn't develop it through properly. You've made the case very well.

In fact, the parallels are so clear, I'm surprised that it hasn't been commented on before. After all, Sol posted in May 2001 about Jonah in the Whale's belly a stage in the hero's journey and how this related to Buffy.

Also, another interesting but slightly askew parallel. Shadowkat posted about Pinnochio and Spike. Pinnochio in the search for his father's love, also gets swallowed up by a whale. Isn't this a twist on Connor? and doesn't Angel go into the waters telling Connor how much he loved him?

Much food for thought. And a new Angel thread!

[> [> Who are the Ninevites, then? -- Scroll, 07:48:57 10/05/02 Sat

Cordelia calls Angel Pinocchio in "To Shanshu in L.A." so there's the parallel that vamp with soul some day gets to be human (or tries to be).

If Angel is Jonah, then perhaps Wesley would be seen as the Ninevites. He is, from Angel's perspective, not part of the family anymore (like the Ninevites weren't Jewish). Wes has given himself over to sin, sleeping with the enemy and all. If Angel's purpose is to help the hopeless, I think Wes would qualify.

Or perhaps Connor is the Ninevites too. After all, Connor had just returned from Quortoth, Angel was supposed to spend time with him, building a relationship. But he lied to Connor about seeing Holtz, thereby allowing Holtz to stage his death. Later Angel goes off to meet Cordelia, leaving his true responsibility behind (who locks him in a box and dumps him in the ocean). So when Angel emerges from the box, he needs to re-establish ties with Connor and convince him he didn't kill Holtz. But somehow I don't see Angel resenting Connor if Connor does indeed repent. So I'm not sure how Jonah's resentment would be worked in. I think it would really only work with Wesley. Angel might feel a little resentful that the man who lost his son is so easily forgiven by the PTB (even if Wes isn't being forgiven by anyone else).

[> [> [> Re: Who are the Ninevites, then? -- Malandanza, 00:29:56 10/06/02 Sun

"Or perhaps Connor is the Ninevites too"

I'd put Connor (and Holtz's girlfriend) down as a sailor. I like the idea that Wesley might be Ninevah -- I can see Angel resisting a command by TPTB to try to destroy Wesley, reluctantly agreeing to at last, then wondering how TPTB could forgive Wesley and reverse his orders.

But actually, I meant that Angel's mission (Champion of Good) is like Jonah's mission to Ninevah -- Angel loses sight of his mission to pursue his own interests -- maybe after four months of introspection he's finally decided to be a proper Champion. Obey TPTB in all things. I'd also like to see Angel sulking like Jonah after TPTB are too lenient for his tastes.

[> [> [> [> Re: Who are the Ninevites, then? -- alcibiades, 05:46:06 10/06/02 Sun

Someone last year posted a great message contrasting Angel's desire to be forgiven for the unforgiveable vis a vis Holtz and others to the fact that he is completely unable to contemplate giving such forgiveness to Wesley.

He stands in need of forgiveness and seeks it out but cannot give it.

So I get your belly of a whale analogy.

And while I don't think Angel was running away from his job in the same way Jonah was, he certainly was letting his feelings for his son skew his mission -- the black magic, the torture, the murder attempt on Wesley.

But it is hard for me to see Wesley as the Ninevites because I have never understood the text to mean that Jonah was like the Ninevites.

Best Spike Eps -- cjc36, 03:46:00 10/05/02 Sat

I'm trying to remember, is the thing. I know Fool For Love, and of course, Beneath You.

Question? What are your fav Spike moments? And are they mostly/all from post-chip Spike, or do any come from his badder days?

Lover's Walk would be one of mine. The Initiative, too. Both were the last real glimpses of DANGER!SPIKE, when he truly was a Big Bad. Becoming II also comes to mind.

[> In the Dark was very good -- Wolfhowl3, 04:30:46 10/05/02 Sat

[> HLOD and Crush and Becoming II -- alcibiades, 06:13:08 10/05/02 Sat

[> School Hard -- Finn Mac Cool, 07:03:59 10/05/02 Sat

Hands down my favorite Spike episode. Why, you might ask? Because I really like the character and, after that episode, his continued frustration over killing Buffy, being crippled, Drusilla leaving him, being neutered, and then the greatest curse of all, loving Buffy, we rarely ever see Spike with an earnest smile on his face. School Hard is the happiest we ever see him, plus he gets to be at his Big Bad best. School Hard all the way.

[> [> I would say "School Hard" was Buffy's best "introduction of a villain" episode ever. -- Rob, 12:00:35 10/05/02 Sat

[> Doomed -- JBone, 07:59:35 10/05/02 Sat

[> Re: Best Spike Eps -- Indri, 09:39:00 10/05/02 Sat

Best Spike scenes:

Becoming Part II: his famous "Happy meals on legs" speech and those pure comedic moments with Joyce.

Lover's Walk: with Willow in the old factory. He slides from maudlin and pitiful to vicious and violent and back again. Wonderful acting from both JM and AH in this.

Doomed: that final scene "for puppies and Christmas."

Fool for Love: the subway scene. I'm still horrified that I find myself cheering him on. And, of course, that complicated moment on the Summers' back steps.

Beneath You: you know which scene. No spoilers here.

[> [> I was thinking more of pathetic, suicidal Spike in Doomed; I loved that! -- JBone, 16:08:17 10/05/02 Sat

More than I liked sit 'n spin Spike from season 2. How Angelus totally emasculated him in front of Drusilla. That was great. Or there was Hush, NA, and Entropy when Xander beats the living sh*t out of him. Good times. I'm not gonna count the dozens of times Buffy beat the crap out of him. That almost gives him some kind of Buffy cred. Oh, don't read this if you're a Spike apologist. You might not like it. Heh, heh, heh. I can hear the twelve year old girls' screaming fits already.

Does anyone else remember their favorite pathetic or loser Spike moments?

[> [> [> Know what I'll love? The moment where Spike wins your contest. :D -- Harry Parachute, 16:40:26 10/05/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> Mr. Parachute, I love your comments... -- JBone, 17:16:30 10/05/02 Sat

If you had been there from the beginning like the regulars Finn Mac Cool, Earl Allison, or Lyonors, I would probably name you most valuable commentator, just for your humor. Since I've had to try to keep myself impartial for a little over two months and I'm only one matchup away from getting away from that ending, I'm letting the hound out a little. I've got an resevoir of Spike worship bile worked up, and a few cracks in the damn aren't going to hurt anyone.

[> [> [> [> [> Was just playin', Your Boneness. -- Harry Parachute, 17:36:39 10/05/02 Sat

Meant for that to be a little jab, not a haymaker, but I apologize if it came out strong. I love the Road, I live the Road, and you're quite the commentator yourself. But being an only child that one day got four step-siblings, I had to become an evil bastard or perish.

So I'm sorry JBone. I'm a bad, rude man.
Would you like a new comment?
One that isn't mean? :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Does this mean you don't have a favorite pathetic or loser Spike episode? -- JBone, 17:54:45 10/05/02 Sat

[> [> [> Pathetic loser Spike you want? -- HonorH, 22:06:43 10/05/02 Sat

I'd say his lowest moment yet was having to wear Xander's clothes in "Doomed."

[> Intervention -w/ Buffy bot -- Spike Lover, 10:00:58 10/05/02 Sat

[> Afterlife -- Jade, 10:08:29 10/05/02 Sat

One of the best Spike episodes has to be Afterlife. The "Every night I save you" speech made me cry.
Of course the end of Beneath You did too, which was also one of the best. Spike is one of the most unpredictable characters ever thought up. Can't wait to see what happens next with him.

[> A New Man (for the Spike/Giles interaction) -- Dariel, 10:34:01 10/05/02 Sat

They make a great team. Loved Spike's amusement and egging on of Giles-as-Fyarl demon, who increasingly desires to "crush, kill, destroy." And Spike's gloating satisfaction at outrunning the Iniative in Gile's tiny car, only to slam into a wall.

Also "What's My Line part II"--Spike trailing kisses up
Dru's arm while calling her his "Ripe, wicked plum." Now that was sexy!

[> [> Oh yeah, A New Man rocks! -- ponygirl, 18:13:57 10/05/02 Sat

There's definitely a whole sub-category of favourite Spike/Giles moments. I'd also nominate their scene in Hush, for the classic Weetabix line alone.

I actually have a fairly oddball choice for best Buffy/Spike moment. In Superstar, Spike saying he'd like to see Buffy face evil alone, without Jonathon. Not especially sexy... except that he says the line while running his hand down her face, and he puts such a wistful tone in his voice that Buffy actually looks tempted. Then Jonathon gets to do a bit of bitch slapping, which is always a treat to see.

[> "Tabula Rasa"! (Gotta love "Randy Giles" lol) -- Rob, 12:01:45 10/05/02 Sat

[> OMWF -- Rest in Peace -- georgides, 13:49:46 10/05/02 Sat

[> Re: Best Spike Eps -- Cheryl, 14:37:29 10/05/02 Sat

From This Year's Girl (courtesy of Psyche's Transcripts):


Spike: Tell you what I'll do then. Head out, find this girl, tell her exactly where all of you are, and then watch as she kills you. (he grins)

Giles and Xander just stare at him, speechless. Spike rolls his eyes and sighs.

Spike: Can anyone of your damn little Scooby club at least try to remember that I HATE you all? Just because I can't do the damage myself doesn't stop me from aiming a loose cannon your way. And here I thought the evening'd be dull.

[> *Shrug* May as well. -- HonorH, 22:04:08 10/05/02 Sat

"School Hard"--From the second we saw him, we knew Spike was gonna be a different kind of vampire. Awesome entrance!

"Lover's Walk"--The blubbering on Willow's shoulder was great, the begging little marshmallows from Joyce was better, and the "You'll never be friends" speech to Buffy and Angel was the best.

"Something Blue"--You can't *not* love this one.

"Fool for Love"--The ultimate in Spikeyness. JM nailed the whole ep right to the floor.

"The Gift"--Who could have ever predicted this one? The best moments: the "You treat me like a man" speech; the painful look he shares with Dawn as Doc throws him from the tower; and breaking down over Buffy's dead body.

"After Life"--Just amazing work, from being furious with Xander to his "Every night I save you" speech to his stunned silence at Buffy's confession.

"Seeing Red"--Whatever you think of the ep as a whole, it's incredibly important for Spike's development.

"Beneath You"--Do I need to elaborate?

(7.2 spoiler) New (?) Insight into Beneath You -- Frisby, 06:03:29 10/05/02 Sat

I've had what I think is a new insight regarding "Beneath You." The theme of the episode which seems to be introducing the theme of the season is "From Beneath You It Rises" referring it seems to some big bad or other like the first evil. But then I recalled Celia's words to William the Bloody "You're beneath me" and also Buffy's words to Spike at the end of that same episode "You're beneath me Spike!" So, maybe what we're seeing is the "Rising" of Spike (or Will-iam) from beneath up into a world where he is face to face with Buffy (both being souls in the big picture). From beneath [Buffy] [Spike/Will-iam] rises! The rising, or resurrection or enlightenment or redemption or maturity (or what have you) may itself be the theme for now (and maybe for the season, and who knows, given the context, for the series in some small way). Make sense?

Also, FYI, if the big bad this season is the first evil then surely that brings to mind Lucifer, the bringer of the light, the first creation of God (apart from God's "wisdom"), who in the great scheme of things, through the function of the devil (the unification of the beast, antichrist, and false prophet), becomes Satan or the ruler of hell (or earth transformed), with his four primary generals Beelzebub (cunning strategy), Moloch (violent destruction), Mammon (excessive exploitation), and Belial (magical deception). Maybe Josh and Co will give us their rendition of the fight for humanity on earth? (food for thought and speculation -- no food fights please, and hold the bourbon)

David

[> Re: (7.2 spoiler) New (?) Insight into Beneath You (correction) -- Frisby, 06:23:13 10/05/02 Sat

"From Beneath You It Devours" (not rises) -- but doesn't someone say "Rises"? Oh well.

[> [> "A great chap - I hope he wins!" -- Slain, 07:59:21 10/05/02 Sat

...Which was a (mis)quote from someone (Johnson?), discussing the character of Lucificer in Paradise Lost - making the point that Milton had inadvertently made him a hero rather than a villain.

M.E. certainly have trod a line between hero and villain with Spike and, if anything, I can see him as a kind of Lucifier figure, as Milton's Lucifier is very different from the image of Satan the church portrays. Both characters felt others (God or Buffy) were impinging upon them, preventing them from living. Both went to extremes, Lucifier declaring war on God, Spike attempting to rape Buffy; both, ultimately, desired forgiveness, to some extent. I'm not sure if the parallel can go any further, because while Lucifier wanted to return to heaven, ultimately he knew he couldn't. Whereas, in a sense, Spike has already achieved a return to paradise (though it's an ironic paradise, certainly).

[> Re: (7.2 spoiler) New (?) Insight into Beneath You -- MayaPapaya9, 10:36:11 10/05/02 Sat

Maybe Spike will be Lucifer, and he'll lead the army of demons against Buffy and her army of humans and they'll have this super dramatic battle in the season finale. I for one very much want to see Spike evil again.

[> Re: (7.2 spoiler) New (?) Insight into Beneath You -- SpikeMom, 11:42:38 10/05/02 Sat

Everyone keeps refering to this First as the First Evil, but I can't recall it being identified as such. My humble take on it is that it is simply the First Power. What is chosen to do with it determines whether it will be the first evil or the first good. It would seem to fit into the whole theme of power for this season; that power is neutral in and of itself. It's what we (souled or non-souled) choose to do with it that defines it and matters. Personal choices also fit the other theme of growing-up: adulthood, setting examples for the kiddies in the high school, leadership.

Qs about Vampires, Souls, and the nature of Viewpoint -- cjc36, 08:43:07 10/05/02 Sat

This is more of a question post. Okay. Angelus the Demon murdered and pillaged and did other really horrible things. So his last victims cursed him and gave him (him being the body Angelus inhabits) the human "Soul" back. One assumes this is Liam, the human man pre-vampire bite. So with the human conscience now at play, the viewpoint seemed to shift to Liam's when the flashback scene of the initial cursing was shown. The monster was now deeply confused about his surroundings, but with a tinge of guilt and remorse. Now, when Willow did the spell and got his soul back in Becoming II, a shift happened there, too. Back to an entity now known as Angel. Question: Was Angel essentially Liam with a really long lifespan and guilty conscience, or did the combining of Liam and Angelus create a third, separate being, called Angel?

Next question: Was the soul-replacement solely intended to make the Angelus *demon* feel guilt, or was it to make the former human (who, really, isn't responsible, because it wasn't inhabiting the vessel while the demon/vampire had full control and did said, horrible acts) feel remorse? Who was the Romany people punishing? Did they care that a free and unbounded entity with no responsibility for current possessed-body crimes was now being imprisoned in the body, just to punish the demon?

Now, with Spike. He voluntarily went and got his soul back. Problem is the entity who wanted the soul so Buffy could get what she deserves (a man with a conscience, I assume) is no longer the individual who made the request in the first place. He is a third individual, both demon and human, and the two incompatible entities fighting over the same dead flesh has made him quite mad.

Integration will happen, I believe. That is *if* he doesn't lose his mind completely. But I wonder how much of William will be in control when everything settles.

[> MILD SPOILERS FOR EARLY S7 ABOVE -- cjc36, 08:45:09 10/05/02 Sat

[> Answers--not! (mild spoilers) -- HonorH, 10:02:33 10/05/02 Sat

There are lots of viewpoints on your question. Here's my "Angel equation":

Liam-soul+demon=Angelus
Angelus+soul=Angel

In other words, everything that Angelus was still exists within Angel, but the addition of the soul changes the makeup of the corporate being. He's no longer Liam, in spite of having Liam's soul--too much time has passed, too much has happened, for him to still be the party boy with a side of despair he once was. But in a real way, he's no longer Angelus. It's like hydrogen gas and water. Water contains hydrogen, but it's a totally different substance. (Add enough heat and the hydrogen will come out, though.)

As for what the Gypsies intended to torture, I can't say for certain. The corporate being Angel feels torment--demon, soul, every part of him. It's like if you were to take a sociopathic serial killer and force upon him a conscience.

I think you're right about SpikeWilliam. He needs to integrate. There are moments when he's clearly William, and he tried to be Spike again on Tuesday. Neither work for long, and when he tries to be both, he goes insane.

[> [> Re: Answers--not! (mild spoilers) -- Isabel, 10:34:51 10/05/02 Sat

I like your equations. They do outline the identities well.

I'd like to add something about the Gypsies and who they intended to torture. I don't think they cared. They wanted the entity that raped and murdered the gypsy girl to PAY. (Yes, I this may be an assumption on my part, but when we see Angel first biting the bound Gypsy girl, (In The Prodigal or Dear Boy, I think) he starts on her inner thigh. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to infer that Angelus "played with his food.") The Gypsies said that "Vengeance is a living thing." That the soul forced on Angelus was innocent of his crimes was irrelevant. The soul ensured that the Angelus monster would writhe in torment.

Remember Willow? She didn't stop at killing Warren, she wanted to splatter Jonathan and Andrew too. They had nothing to do with Tara's murder, their only 'crime' was being former partners with Warren.

I think most people agree that the 'Happiness Clause' made no sense. It could have come from a grieving family not thinking clearly or maybe, the clan didn't think the spell and the knowlege and power to cast it would ever be lost to them. They knew they had to keep tabs on Angel and make sure he suffered. Could the original elders have intended that, if he ever lost his soul to happiness, their descendants would resoul him after he killed a bunch more people and then tell him he had to be miserable for the rest of eternity?

That last bit's just my imagination to explain it because that Happiness Clause bugs me.

[> [> Better analysis through chemistry! -- Arethusa, 16:44:35 10/05/02 Sat

[> [> [> How about music theory? -- HonorH, 17:06:28 10/05/02 Sat

Angelus is a simple chord, and the soul added notes. All the notes that were Angelus are still there, but the chord itself has changed.

Boy, could I go on and on with different analogies!

About the last scene of "Beneath You"-- -- HonorH, 10:08:30 10/05/02 Sat

I have heard through a reliable source that the last scene was re-written and re-shot by Joss Himself. It just wasn't working the way it was, a la the morning-after scene in "Innocence", so Himself stepped in and created a masterpiece. Anybody know the truth of this?

[> Re: About the last scene of "Beneath You"-- -- MaeveRigan, 10:33:51 10/05/02 Sat

It's true.

The original version of the scene has been posted on a well-known BtVS list, and may have turned up elsewhere by now.

[> [> Cool! Thanks, Maeve! -- HonorH, 10:45:27 10/05/02 Sat

[> [> Which "well-known BtVS list"? -- tyler, 12:13:29 10/05/02 Sat

[> [> [> Supposed final scene here... -- Doriander, 14:50:33 10/05/02 Sat

Got this from the Buffistas board courtesy of a poster named Cindy.



Buffy enters the church. She hears the sound of sobbing. She walks in, cautiously, holding a stake. We see a figure sitting in one of the pews, rocking gently back and forth. It is Spike, sitting alone, looking as lost and frightened as he can. He speaks softly and sanely.

Spike: I figured it out. Took awhile, but . . . I think the real problem is . . .

He looks to Buffy, eyes wide, vulnerable.

Spike: I was once this really nice guy.

Buffy remains cautious.

Buffy: So that's the problem.

Spike: I think.

Buffy: Got news, Spike. You're not that nice.

Spike laughs, quietly, enjoying the irony of a good joke.

Spike: Yeah. I've been ... well, come on, let's face it. Been a one-man slaughterhouse the last hundred years. Raping, murdering. And for what? (BEAT) Kicks.

He bows his head in reverence.

Spike: William the Bloody Awful Poet, skipping down the lane . . . good boy, bad boy, all the sodding same. You like it? Wrote that one myself.

He rolls his head around slowly, to stare up at the ceiling.

Spike: Is it hot enough in here to burn all your mortal sins away?

Suddenly, vampire-fast, he stands straight up.

Spike: Stuffy. Stuffed. Full, packed, sorry mate, no room, out you go, standing room only and no room for that. We. Are. FULL.

Buffy steps back, giving him a wide berth. Spike lurches forward, up the church aisle, zig-zagging left and right, but always moving forward.

Spike: Full of sin. Full of guilt. Full of hate and love and loss and feeling. Full of it, quite frankly, and it's been so long. (laughs) Since we felt anything here. Rusty switchboard, sparked to life, bound to be more'n a few sharp shocks.

Buffy slowly follows behind, watching . . .

Spike: Right? RIGHT?! Shh! Quiet. Church. His house. Place of clasped hands, reverent hymns, and massive raw amounts of BEGGING. On your knees, boy. Beg him. BEG HIM for forgiveness. . .

Spike is heading toward the altar. There stands a large, carved-stone cross.

Buffy: Spike . . .?

He gets to the altar's steps and keeps going . . . straight to the cross.

Buffy: You have a soul. . .!

Spike stops by the cross. Responds without looking back.

Spike: I do indeed.

He wearily rests his head upon the stone crucifix. And steam rises from where his flesh makes contact. He grimaces but does not scream.

Spike: And it's killing me.

He reaches out and HUGS the cross with both arms.

Spike: God . . .

He releases the cross, slowly pulling back and turning to Buffy.

Spike: God hates me. You hate me. I hate myself more than ever.

Buffy wants to step forward but does not.

Buffy: But why'd you do it . . .?

Spike: You know why.

He keeps turning, now facing Buffy, barely able to stand on his feet, wobbling a bit -- and holding his arms out -- wide.

Spike: I got my soul back . . . so I could be the kind of . . .(laughs) . . . person . . . you could care for, the man you would. . . a man you could love.

Spike grins through bloody teeth. The burn marks stand out fresh upon his forehead and palms. He looks like death, and any second he's going to collapse. And still, it's like something terribly sad is actually, deep down funny and only he gets the joke. He staggers gently. Eyeing the stake she still holds in her hand. He's drawn to it -- and to her.

Spike: I was the enemy, then I was nothing, and now I'm God's garbage. Not even a joke, less than. . .less than. . .less than all His creatures combined. So tell me, dear Buffy . . .

He barely makes it to her -- and SLAMS straight down, to his knees and opens his arms wide.

Spike: How you like me now?

Buffy's mind goes a long way trying to come up with the answer, but her mouth cannot speak and we:

BLACKOUT. -------

[> [> [> [> hmm, after reading that I am glad it was redone... -- yuri, 22:53:22 10/05/02 Sat

even though all of Spike's actions were done "for" Buffy and his reason for being there is supposed to be "for" her, there still is something to him that isn't her and that is also affected by the soul. (Well actually, I guess one could make a case for Spike's entire purpose for living being Buffy.. that that's the kind of person he is, he survives solely through his passion for her... but I'm just going to say for a moment that this isn't entirely true.) And to have that image of him on the cross at the end - besides the fact that it was an intense and incredibly evocative image - seems to convey even more Spike's overwhelming transformation. The moments where he pulled away (flesh) or was too wrapped up in himself to pay attention to her were the most startling and the most intense. It is much more interesting to have him with his back to her, albeit talking about what he wants from her, than to have him on his knees before her. That woulda been too boring.

[> Re: About the last scene of "Beneath You"-- -- alcibiades, 10:54:19 10/05/02 Sat

It was rewritten and reshot but not for the reasons that applied in Innocence.

There Joss stated the actors didn't hit it until he re-wrote the scene in Angel's bedroom.

This time, the actors hit it out of the ballpark as well in the first version, which is not surprising since it was almost all James and very little Sarah -- mostly reaction shots. But for many reason known to Joss and ME, Joss decided to take the story in a different direction.

There have been reports that SMG was unhappy with the lack of popularity of Buffy's character -- and of course this year she has a lot of bargaining power -- it may be true -- couldn't say. And that SMG was unhappy with the emerging picture of Buffy which had not changed much from last year. In the first version she was still with the unexpressive, unemotional, unreactive face as she faced Spike burning himself on the cross and telling her about the soul.

Personally, I like both versions tons, although Joss' version probably has the edge.

[> [> Re: About the last scene of "Beneath You"-- -- Rob, 11:55:35 10/05/02 Sat

Well, I'm glad Joss changed it, because the alternate version of that scene would have had a lot of fans railing against Buffy, and, in this case, I believe, deservedly so. Last season, it would be in character for Buffy to possibly have had little reaction to Spike's situation, but Buffy has recovered from the trauma of last season now, and to have her not feel for Spike this year would have come off, IMO, as callous. The fact that she feels so sorry for him proves how much she actually has grown in the last year, and I also think is the capper that makes the scene such a classic. I was moved so much by the scene not just because of JM's brilliant performance, but because of Buffy's quiet, shocked, tear-stained reaction. These true feelings of sympathy (and perhaps even empathy) that Buffy has for Spike now is what made this episode for me.

Rob

[> [> [> Have to agree. -- HonorH, 12:32:02 10/05/02 Sat

Buffy's into feeling things again this year. SMG's performance nailed it home--deeply moved, emotionally conflicted, compassionate. It's the New Buffy, and it worked way better than simple stunned silence.

[> [> [> [> deeply moved, emotionally conflicted, compassionate -- alcibiades, 13:00:21 10/05/02 Sat

"deeply moved, emotionally conflicted, compassionate"

I'd reverse that order emotionally conflicted, deeply moved compassionate.

It is no accident that Buffy's first two reactions are disgust. Because Spike has just proved to her that he is real -- the answer to the very first thing she said to him this season -- and that means that her abuse of him last year was real as well.

She has to progress beyond that whole self-centered thing that characterized her last year before she can feel empathy in this scene.

It is not until Spike says shame on you Buffy that she moves beyond it.

[> [> [> [> [> Disgust? -- HonorH, 13:09:39 10/05/02 Sat

Where do you come up with disgust? I saw fear, pain, conflict, amazement, confusion, pity, and compassion, but the word "disgust" never entered my mind.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Uh huh -- alcibiades, 13:46:22 10/05/02 Sat

Yep disgust.

Look at her face when she is saying "Why? Why would you..." before Spike cuts her off and says Buffy, shame on you."

WTP suggested that this moment was written as a parallel to the scene where Darla first learns Angel has a soul. In that scene, Darla's disgust is more or less species oriented.

But in this scene, the motives, IMO are personal.

Spike has faced himself. Now she has to face herself and own her deeds from last year.

Just as btw when Spike stabs Ronnie, his shadow self that he is trying to destroy, there is a parallel to the moment that Buffy stabs Faith, her shadow self that she is trying to destroy at the end of Season 3.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Uh huh -- MaeveRigan, 14:43:42 10/05/02 Sat

Look at her face when she is saying "Why? Why would you..." before Spike cuts her off and says Buffy, shame on you."

WTP suggested that this moment was written as a parallel to the scene where Darla first learns Angel has a soul. In that scene, Darla's disgust is more or less species oriented.

But in this scene, the motives, IMO are personal.

So, are you saying that Buffy is disgusted with herself, thus making this scene a parallel but mirror image of the ensouled Angel/Darla scene? I can see this--Buffy certainly demonstrated disgust with herself repeatedly last season, and if Spike had the gumption to actually volunteer for a soul, she'll have to face the shame all over again, with a new twist.

Or are you saying that she's disgusted with Spike? IOW, reacting exactly as Darla did to Angel? This seems so unlikely, though. She's saying "Why? Why would you?"--put the words and the emotions on her face together. I didn't see disgust either, actually. Confusion, conflict.

Unless you have it on authority that SMG was told to convey disgust?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You took my point, Maeve. -- HonorH, 16:32:26 10/05/02 Sat

I can see self-disgust on Buffy's part--though I think she's a bit past the point where that's warrented--but disgust at Spike? No.

"Why? Why would you--" It's confusion. Fear, even, because I think she knows where this is going. She's trying to comprehend the enormity of this, and I don't think she can wrap her mind around the fact that he did this *for her*. Because he felt shame at what he'd done to her. Because he wanted her forgiveness. Because he wanted to fit in, to be loved.

That's an awful lot to take in.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Uh huh -- alcibiades, 17:17:24 10/05/02 Sat

This seems so unlikely, though. She's saying
"Why? Why would you?"--put the words and the emotions on her face together. I didn't see disgust either, actually. Confusion, conflict.

Look at her face when she says "why would you...?"

She's curling/raising her upper lip and crinkling her nose.

That is not a hugs and puppies look.

That's a classic look of rejection or of disgust.

He responds to it, before she finishes her thought, by cutting her off and saying, "Buffy shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev- To be a kind of *man*."

The point is he's answering her objection to what he has done. He's not answering her look of self disgust. He's explaining it more fully.

And his answer does shame her I believe, because she was reacting in narrow personal terms and what he responds would humble anyone that possessed sensibility.

How do you account for the fact he says shame on you exactly at that moment in your interpretation? Those are very strong words from Spike to Buffy -- he's certainly never had the position or leadership to be able to say them to her before.

I think Buffy was reacting negatively to the change for several reasons, some personal -- because she would have to give up the ways things worked that she was used to -- the status quo she was comfortable with -- thinking of Spike in a very real part of her mind as an evil disgusting thing that she could punch in the nose and throw across the room everytime he did something she didn't like -- also because it opens an abyss under her feet -- if a vampire can do this for love, what does it mean to be a slayer of vampires.

Also because he has done something incredibly taboo, crossed a line which she finds deeply unsettling.

BTW, I am not saying she is stuck on this emotion, just that it is a current that passes through her and that she expresses on her face and in her voice before it passes out of her and Spike leads her to a fuller vision, makes her see him and what he has done in universal terms, not in the more self-serving reaction that she momentarily had.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Please elaborate -- Arethusa, 17:22:11 10/05/02 Sat

"Also because he has done something incredibly taboo, crossed a line which she finds deeply unsettling."

This sounds like the beginning of a very interesting point. Any more thoughts on it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Me blathering on and on elaborating... -- alcibiades, 18:27:46 10/05/02 Sat

Also because he has done something incredibly taboo, crossed a line which she finds deeply unsettling.

This sounds like the beginning of a very interesting point. Any more thoughts on it?

Thanks.

Well here's trying...

Spike has made himself essentially a mixed species.

In anthropological terms and in early religions, things that were made from mixed species -- whether animate or inanimate -- were always regarded as taboo or unnatural in certain respects.

The precedent for this arose from the natural world: For example, an ass is always infertile. That gives it an unnatural status from the ancient POV in terms of its categorization in the world.

The modern world has erased this distinction but it was terribly important to the ancient world as a way of keeping order or organizing the chaos of the world.

The world view of ancient cultures expressed this notion by creating taboos around certain activities.

FREX, in Judaism, there is an ancient biblical law forbidding Jews from wearing garments made of wool and linen mixed together. It is very nonsensical to modern eyes, but anthropologically the explanation for it is that it is considered taboo to mix the epitome of a fibre made from plants with the epitome of a fibre made from animals. Hence, linen and wool, unmixy things.

Similarly the laws of keeping kosher are based on making a distinction between milk based food products -- since milk is the nurturing element -- and meat based food products -- since meat represents death, the opposite of nurturing. The principle of nurturing must be kept distinct from death. The original biblical law forbids the cooking of a kid in its mother's milk -- the dead kid ought not to be cooked in milk which was supposed to nurture it.

These are elements between which distinctions must be drawn. Confusing these two principles violates God's order.

Anyway I could blather on with more examples, but the point is Spike has turned himself into such a mixed species -- his Being contains "He" William, and the "thing" part of him that is beneath Buffy.

Spike in being both of these things, has now erased a distinction that is very important for Buffy to draw. The distinction between the human world and the vampire world.

Last year whenever Buffy's id was leading her ego to erase these distinctions, when she was in danger of forgetting she would remind Spike but also herself of the fact that he was an evil disgusting thing usually by punching him in the nose. It reestablished the order of the world. And Buffy needed that external reinforcement of the distinction because she was violating the distinction by sleeping with him. Which was taboo.

When Buffy tried to tell Xander in Seeing Red that Spike wasn't that bad, that Xander had permitted Spike to take care of Dawn all summer, Xander once more drew the line in the sand: But I never forgot what he was -- killing half Europe, etc.

Riley also reminded Buffy of the distinction between Spike and her -- of his nature, the fact that he was a vampire. The external reinforcement helped her.

And now Spike has gone and done the one unimaginable thing -- erased the distinction while still retaining his demon self.

And I think the utter unnaturalness of his condition -- despite the fact that it had a precedent in Angel -- makes her react viscerally with a certain amount of disgust to the violation of the taboo.

Just as Buffy reacted to herself in disgust last year the whole time she was violating the taboo by sleeping with Spike and just as Xander reacted to both her and Anya when he found out that they slept with Spike.

So I think in this moment that I am trying to analyze she moves from a visceral, primitive disgust at what he has done. He has not just crossed the line -- he has become the embodiment of the taboo --

This is actually clearer in the first version when Spike tells Buffy that God hates him, and we know because he has just embraced the cross and it has burned him at the very moment he is asking for forgiveness, that he believes God hates him because his physical being is physically unable to draw close to the symbol of God in love, even as his soul yearns to.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Please elaborate (Spoilers for "Lessons") -- Indri, 23:57:17 10/05/02 Sat

I'd be willing to go further and describe the new Spike as an abomination (albeit nervously, as I regret that I have no decent dictionary to hand).

Angel, of course is also a souled vampire, but he came by his soul through a curse, so I imagine that the evil denizens of the Buffyverse think of his situation as "a tough break for good old Angelus", nothing more.

Spike is another situation entirely because he asked for his soul. Admittedly, he was able to do this only through a combination of unusual circumstances---Walsh's chip, his socialisation with the Scoobies, and Spike's own personality traits---but as far as we know, he may be the first evil unsouled being to request a conscience. Even if others have gone before I think we can assume that this occurrence, if not unique, is very rare.

Spike may now be a point of rupture within the Buffyverse. He not only challenges the preconceptions of Buffy and the SG but of evil entities. When I saw the final scene of "Lessons", I presumed that Big Bad #7 (the First Evil?) was taking an interest in Spike precisely because he upsets the status quo. BB7 wants Spike to fail as a lesson for any other uppity dark warriors who might have the temerity to haul themselves bodily across the line.

I'm sure this must have been covered elsewhere---I'm fairly new to the board. I've spent the past week reading through the archives (May and June) and good lord, but there's an enormous amount of material to read through. I'm just hobbling behind to catch up.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Please elaborate (Spoilers for "Lessons") -- aliera, 07:18:26 10/06/02 Sun

New or not, I've enjoyed your posts, Indri. I love the archives...I did the same type of reading myself back in the spring when I came to the board and now I often print them off after they're posted to try to catch up on the threads I miss, so many good thoughts, so little time...and a belated welcome! I had similar thoughts about the source of Spike's soul after Grave and concerns about the motivations behind the souling on the demon's part and nothing we've seen yet has dissuaded me.

"What do I say? God! God!---God pity me!
Am I gone mad...

...Ah, I am worn out--I am wearied out--It is too much
--I am but flesh and blood, And I must sleep.
Though you were dead again, I am but flesh and blood,
And I must sleep."

Edna St Vincent Millay, Renascence and Other Poems


"If this importunate heart trouble your peace
With words light than air,
Or hopes that in mere hoping flicker and cease...

'Oh hearts of windblown flame!
Oh winds, elder than changing of night and day,
That murmuring and longing came,
From marble cities loud with tabours of old...

And trouble with a sigh all things longing for rest
The odorous twilight there."

WB Yeats, Michael Robartes asks Forgiveness because of his many moods. The Wind Among the Reeds. 1899.


"Vital spark of heav'nly flame
Quit oh quit this mortal frame:
Trembling, hoping, ling'ring, flying,
Oh the pain, the bliss of dying!
Cease fond nature, cease thy strife,
And let me languish into life.

Oh Grave! where is thy victory?
Oh Death! where is thy sting?"

Alexander Pope, The Dying Christian to his Soul

"Ready to tast a thousand joys,
The too transported hapless swain,
Found the vast pleasure turned to pain;
Pleasure which too much love destroys...

But oh! what envying gods conspire
To snatch his power, yet leave him the desire!

In this so amorous cruel strife,
Where love and fate were too severe,
The poor Lisander in despair
Renounced his reason with his life.
Now all the brisk and active fire
That should the nobler part inflame,
Served to increase his rage and shame,
And left no spark for new desire...

Aphra Behn, The Disappointment

"I was clearly wandering in an engine
Since I was carrying the fuel within me..."

Threads and Cords (1990-91)Erik Mikael Karlsson

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks--for the welcome and poetry both -- Indri, 13:15:35 10/06/02 Sun

I keep saying to myself, as I go through the archives, I'll just read ONE more and then get back to work...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Please elaborate (Spoilers for "Lessons") -- Raul, 17:58:43 10/06/02 Sun

Despondent numbers
Heading towards numb comfort
Without so much as a question

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Please elaborate (Spoilers for "Lessons") -- aliera, 17:05:31 10/07/02 Mon

That is your work, right?

And indira, you're very welcome:-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Uh huh -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:58:38 10/05/02 Sat

I don't think we're going to settle anything here. What it comes down to is that you saw disgust on Buffy's face at that moment. MaeveRigan, HonorH, and now the great Coolness all saw it as confusion and conern. Nobody is really going to change their viewpoint on that. You can't even really argue about it without regressing to "Is so!" "Is not!"

However, Buffy asking "why would you. . ." doesn't mean she felt disgusted. She can't understand why a vampire would try to get a soul; remember, Angel recieving a soul was described as the worst punishment that Romany clan could devise. I took Spike's "shame on you" to mean something akin to "you still don't understand me". Remember, at this moment, Spike is crazed, and not everything he says is meant literally.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Finn's right, I think. -- HonorH, 19:21:05 10/05/02 Sat

It's a matter of perception. The look interpreted by alcibiades as disgust was interpreted by me as incomprehension--why would Spike do this? Because it looked so fun for Angel?

Interesting times are ahead.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree. I didn't see disgust...I saw overwhelming pity. -- Rob, 19:50:20 10/05/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I saw none of the above.... -- DiB, 20:30:43 10/05/02 Sat

...I only saw one of the two emoting faces SMG uses in her portrayal of Buffy: one being a blank stare, the other as we saw in the last scene was her stock "I smell something bad" look.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Troll, be gone! -- Rob, 21:40:48 10/05/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Trolls are people too.... I kinda agree, she does have a "smell something bad" look. -- Rochefort, 19:38:01 10/06/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Two Thoughts -- Harry Parachute, 19:04:31 10/05/02 Sat

Firstly, on the "shame on you" bit and whether or not Buffy's look is a look of disgust...after watching it again closely I can see that's where she was going to take it. You're right, Alcibiades. There is much of the curling and wrinkling. And Spike sees it and calls her on it. And yeah, I think she is shamed.

What I also think was that unsouled-Spike had this in mind from the get-go.

If I remember correctly, JM said in an interview that Joss never told him what the Quest to Africa was about, so he understandably played it like he was gonna get his chip out. So from SR on to Grave we get a lot of malice and anger out of Spike when he goes on his journey.

So I think it's fair to say that Spike getting his soul back was partly an issue of becoming the kind of man Buffy deserves...but I really felt a "Cut off your nose to spite your face" sort of vibe. With the messy love-hate conundrum that is Spike's feelings for Buffy, Spike found a near-perfect middle ground. He would have vengeance and redemption, because redemption IS his vengeance.

Of course, Spike wasn't aware on just how torturous the effect of having a soul would be. Angel played it pretty cool, after all.

Secondly, there's the rest of the line. "For her, to be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev-. To be a kind of man."

See...this is why I dig Spike so much. He's the character who undermines the concepts that the show bases itself on. What episode was it where Buffy says something along the lines of "If I just stopped saving his life, it would uncomplicate things so much"? I forget. But it's true.

He shows that Vampires can love, as he showed with Drusilla first off.

He shows that black-hats can fight the good fight and save the world, as he did in Becoming.

His chipped-status forced the Scoobies to rethink their stance on staking.

His suffering torture at the hands of Glory was an act of true nobility, from a souless monster no less.

And with his current status, well, apparently demons can actually climb their way back into the light out of their own accord.

But what also gets me most is how broad the scope is of the line itself, and what it refers to. I mean...I understand how you could look at it as purely relating to Spike. Others have mentioned on the board that William reinvented himself for the women in his life, with Cecily, Drusilla, and Buffy. He's also talking about ALL men. He's echoing the old dramatic, chauvanist rule of "men act, women inspire".

Could it be that through Spike's epic and classic journey he has now worked against the modern and feminist slant of the series itself? Has the most complex character further complicated this complicated show by surprisingly falling back on an uncomplicated and established cliche?

...um...

I've droned on long enough. Not sure what I'm even talking about now.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Perhaps that's why he's such a thorn in Buffy's side ... -- vh, 06:31:58 10/07/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> Shame on you -- Artemis, 17:25:46 10/05/02 Sat

This is the second time I've heard someone say that Spike says "Shame on you " to Buffy. Which could be interpreted one way. But what I heard was .. "I drew shame on you." Which he says while Buffy overlaps his line. Which is a whole other interpretation. He's saying I did this because of what I did to you, not "Oh Buffy you should know better." At least that's my interpretation. Oh and yes I love this version of the final scene so much better. The other seems a little too hard hitting.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agree entirely -- shadowkat, 19:18:46 10/05/02 Sat

Okay I want the dang shooting script.

I rewatched that scene five times and I swear it went:

Why, Why would you do that

overlapped with

Because I put the shame on you

(Couldn't tell if first word was Because or Buffy, but the next was I PUT THE SHAME ON YOU - or that's what I heard...was beginning to think I lost it thanks for saying the same thing Artemis.)

I also agree. If the original scene is what Doriander posted? I soo much prefer Joss' version. The final scene made more sense for both characters was for more eloquent and more in character. The one in Doriander's post seems poorly written, not as beautiful and falls flat by comparison.

I loved the scene I saw. Glad it was the one that aired.
Think we should ignore the first draft. After all it's what airs that matters, right?

(PS: This is the reason I went off spoilers - often the spoilers are first drafts or out of context pieces of dialogue that ruine a clear viewing of the show. I still wonder if I would have appreciated AYW, HB, SR more without the spoilers.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> or -- vh, 06:22:52 10/07/02 Mon

"Because I shamed you."

And, yes, Tchikovsky (responding to a post below), it's kind of hard to believe that's the original, but maybe it is. It seems a little heavy-handed to me for our writers.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Shooting script up now at Psyche (spoilers for BY) -- Indri, 10:36:14 10/07/02 Mon

It has Spike saying "Shame on you" rather than "I put the shame on you".

It also implies something's up with the chip:

"Spike's agonized scream joins Ronnie's as he braces himself for the searing pain from his implanted chip. But after a moment, Spike suddenly stops screaming and looks up in surprise."

Whether this implies mechanical failure or something metaphysical is unclear. Again, he looks up.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just transcript still - Re: Shooting script up now at Psyche (spoilers for BY) -- vh, 11:28:56 10/07/02 Mon

Just went over there, looks like it's still just the transcript, not the shooting script.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> yep just the transcript -- shadowkat, 12:59:43 10/07/02 Mon

The difference being - someone who watched the show
typed it up and put in internet downloads.

However - I looked at Lessons which had numerous mistakes in dialogue, so can't help but wonder if maybe it is the shooting script? Sometimes they cut lines?
(shrug) At any rate Psyche has gotten ambitious by downloading photos from the episode which makes it take forever to view the script.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Script versions -- Tchaikovsky, 09:04:25 10/06/02 Sun

I much prefer Joss' version, like the rest of you. It's deeply dramatic, has a much more beautiful, and believably steam-of-conscious flow. In Doriander's proclaimed Petrie version, there's a hint of levity which I think is incongruous.

However...

I'm far from sure that I believe this was the original version.
After Joss, I would say that Petrie is the second best writer on Buffy, and I also believe that his best work tends to be with the particularly morally ambiguous characters- ie Faith and Spike. Maybe I'm just shielding one of my favourite writers, but this seems so flat and unemotional compared to the new version.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: deeply moved, emotionally conflicted, compassionate -- Rufus, 17:45:25 10/05/02 Sat

It is no accident that Buffy's first two reactions are disgust.

I didn't see disgust in Buffy's face at all....she was pissed off at first when she assumed that Spike was playing games. I think the going for the zipper did shock her because of the words he used were not those he would normally use.

If this scene is meant to parallel the one in "Darla" it doesn't mean that any of the reactions have to be the same just the situation. As for Buffy being self-centered, I don't agree, she can be stuck in a mind set, but her very actions as a hero prove that she is anything but self-centered....if she were truly self-centered she wouldn't have broken it off with Spike......hell...she could have just chained him up and used him like a toy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I saw horror rather than disgust -- Yoda, 19:58:30 10/05/02 Sat

I think her expression was one of horror rather than disgust. Like she is asking him why he would do something so horrible to himself. She knew the soul was a horrible thing for Angelus. But in Angelus' case she didn't care because it wasn't Angelus she loved it was Angel. But in the case of Spike it is Spike she cared for not William.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I saw horror rather than disgust...lyrics for Hedwig and the Angry Inch -- Rufus, 20:24:20 10/05/02 Sat

Horror maybe at the depth of pain that Spike is in....but I always felt that Buffy had connected to the William/human part of the demon. I think of this song from Hedwig and the Angry Inch when I think of the struggle between Spike/Buffy...demon/human

The Origin of Love
from Hedwig and the Angry Inch

When the earth was still flat
And the clouds made of fire
And mountains stretched up to the sky
Sometimes higher
Folks roamed the earth
Like big rolling kegs
They had two sets of arms
They had two sets of legs
They had two faces peering
Out of one giant head
So they could watch all around them
As they talked while they read
And they never knew nothing of love
It was before...
The origin of love
The origin of love

And there were three sexes then
One that looked like two men
Glued up back to back
Called the children of the sun
And similar in shape and girth
Were the children of the earth
They looked like
Two girls rolled up in one
And the children of the moon
Was like a fork shoved on a spoon
They were part sun, part earth
Part daughter, part son

The origin of love

Now the gods grew quite scared
Of our strength and defiance
And Thor said,
"I'm gonna kill them all with my hammer,
Like I killed the giants"
But Zeus said, "No-
You better let me
Use my lightning like scissors
Like I cut the legs off the whales
Dinosaurs into lizards"
Then he grabbed up some bolts
He let out a laugh
Said, "I'll split them right down the middle
Gonna cut them right up in half"
And then storm clouds gathered above
Into great balls of fire

And then fire shot down
From the sky in bolts
Like shining blades of a knife
And it ripped right through the flesh
Of the children of the sun and the moon and the earth
And some Indian god
Sewed the up into a hole
Pulled it round to our belly
To remind us of the price we pay
And Osiris and the gods of the Nile
Gathered up a big storm
To blow a hurricane
To scatter us away
In a flood of wind and rain
A sea of tidal waves
To wash us all away
And if we don't behave
They'll cut us down again
And we'll be hopping 'round on one foot
And looking through one eye

Last time I saw you
We had just split in two
You were looking at me
I was looking at you
You had a way so familiar
But I could not recognize
'Cause you had blood on your face
I had blood in my eyes
But I could swear by your expression
That the pain down in your soul
Was the same as the one down in mine
That's the pain
That cuts a straight line down through the heart
We call it love
We wrapped our arms around each other
Tried to shove ourselves back together
We were making love
Making love
It was a cold, dark evening
Such a long time ago
When by the mighty hand of Jove
It was the sad story how we became
Lonely two-legged creatures
It's the story of the origin of love
That's the origin of love

The origin of love
The origin of love
The origin of love

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I saw horror rather than disgust...lyrics for Hedwig and the Angry Inch -- Yoda, 20:54:30 10/05/02 Sat

Rufus I like the song. Here is a poem I found on the internet that I think describes Spike perfectly.

Dialogue Between Youth and Age by John S. Moore

AGE: Uniqueness is impossible
It has all been done before
You repeat the age old patterns
And cannot ask for more.

YOUTH: The words you speak are poison,
Sterility and hate
Nothing is impossible
For man may master fate.

AGE: Led on by thoughtless vanity
The old Satanic flaw
You drive yourself to madness
Resisting natural law.

YOUTH: My task is to disprove you
In your sight and in mine
To follow out my destiny
and weave a new design.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cool, Rufus! I actually posted this song here a while back... -- Rob, 21:42:24 10/05/02 Sat

...when I did an analysis of "Hedwig," comparing him/her to Buffy in the sixth season. Did you catch that on the site, like 20 years ago lol?

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You made me rent the DVD..... -- Rufus, 22:15:22 10/05/02 Sat

See, I actually pay attention.....:):):)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Coolness. ;o) -- Rob, 07:33:20 10/06/02 Sun

I'm glad ya liked it.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree Rufus -- shadowkat, 08:21:39 10/06/02 Sun

Agree with both the song. Rented the movie a while back and it still haunts me and that song is truly beautiful thanks for reminding me of it.

Also with this statement:

"Horror maybe at the depth of pain that Spike is in....but I always felt that Buffy had connected to the William/human part of the demon. I think of this song from Hedwig and the Angry Inch when I think of the struggle between Spike/Buffy...demon/human"

I think this is true. In AYW - she says she's sorry to William not Spike. I think she felt connected to the ghost of the man inside the demon. Reason she broke it off and couldn't let herself love him - was because she believed that ghost of a man wasn't real. (Which makes sense after
Angel/Angelus). I think she is horrified by the amount of pain he has brought on himself and possibly a little disgusted with herself. In rewatching it again...I felt
her pain in watching as being empathetic.

Oh - I also realized I was wrong on that line - it is
Buffy, shame on you...after all.

Willow and Spike -- Genivive, 11:33:39 10/05/02 Sat

Both come back to Sunnydale looking for forgiveness and acceptance. Care to guess who will get it first?

[> Easy. (some spoilers) -- HonorH, 11:41:36 10/05/02 Sat

Willow. She started out as a friend; Spike started out as an enemy. Her homicidal tear was sparked by the death of someone they all knew and loved; his started before their grandparents were born. They all know Willow inside and out; none of them truly knows Spike, in many ways.

Not to say it'll be easy for any of them. It'll take time for even Willow to feel at home again, and for everyone to adjust their povs on her. Spike will take even longer, though. Count on it.

[> [> Re: Easy. (some spoilers) -- Genivive, 12:11:06 10/05/02 Sat

Willow is so much more powerful than Spike ever was and Buffy saw her kill. She still has the magic. It's her. I don't think trust will come very easily. I'm curious to see if their acceptance follows common paths.

[> [> [> Re: Easy. (some spoilers) -- mucifer, 14:47:12 10/05/02 Sat

well xander already forgave willow and let her back in at the end of last season. (or am I missing something?)

[> [> [> [> Re: Easy. (some spoilers) -- meritaten, 15:15:34 10/05/02 Sat

Forgiveness and trust aren't the same. Xander still loves Willow as his best friend, but has his trust in her been damaged? Will he always worry that she will revert to VeinyWillow?

When your trust in someone is betrayed, it is hard to fully restore that trust - even when you truly want to.

I see Xander welcoming her back, but feeling unsure about the level of trust he can bestow.

Something effulgent -- Anne, 12:08:01 10/05/02 Sat

Haven't posted here in a while but thought you might be interested in some thoughts I posted at the Stakehouse.

There is a very common point of view on the boards that what we are seeing in Spike is a tug-of-war between the William and the Spike personae. I don't agree. I think we are seeing something a lot more interesting, and it came out in "Beneath You".

What crystallized my thoughts on this was the argument some people were making that the first (unscreened) version of the final scene in "Beneath You" presented Spike as though he were William, had a William-type personality and was experiencing William-type reactions.

Now I disagree totally. It seems clear that the first version, on the contrary, was written very definitely out of the character of Spike. It was snarky, sarcastic, angry, bitter -- that stuff is all armour, and it's Spike armour. And in that guise he was railing against fate, God, and life for the cruel, ironic trick he had played on himself. In fact, it was quite like the Spike in "Crush".

So I say, version 1 was Spike as Spike. Then which persona was in the final version? Not Spike -- at least, not the one we're used to. But I am not arguing that the final version was William either. Why not?

Because the man we saw on screen at the end of "Beneath You" was at long last a man without a costume; a man peeled down to the spiritual bone; a man in as pure a state of nakedness and vulnerabilty as you can find. *And William was just another costume*.

The person we saw in "Fool for Love" was someone wearing a William costume -- poet, aesthete, superior to the vulgarians who surrounded him -- and it failed catastrophically to get him what he longed for. And when it failed he tore it off and tried a bold and desperate throw of the dice: to become the Big Bad.

But the Big Bad costume failed too. We saw it fail in SR. So he tore that costume off, and tried another bold and desperate throw of the dice: to become a souled vampire. And in "Beneath You" we saw him trying on that costume, or what he thought it should look like -- Superman, champion of the people. And that also failed; and he ripped his shirt off and stood before Buffy naked in the deepest
sense of the word.

This is not William. It is not Spike. It is not Superman or Angel the "Champion of the People". Who is it? What do we know about this person, whom we have glimpsed before only behind his shifting costumes? Not much, but a little. That he is somebody trying to become a man. That he is hopeful of forgiveness. That he has journeyed down a dozen decades, created himself three times, demolished himself twice, and is willing to risk anything, anything at all, in search of that elusive missing piece without which he can never be whole and at peace -- that spark? -- that something . . .

effulgent.

[> 7.2 spoilers above -- JCC, 12:31:56 10/05/02 Sat

[> Very nice! -- HonorH, 12:42:45 10/05/02 Sat

You've got something there. William wanted Cecily to see him, the real him, underneath the bad poet and pretentious Gentleman of Polite Society. That was just another disguise.

I like your point about nakedness, too. Stripping off the shirt wasn't just a gesture of discarding a costume--it was about revealing himself to her. Baring his soul, in the truest sense. I think that that's the first time Buffy was able to truly see the man he was--because for the first time, he showed himself to her without any masks.

[> [> Oh please........ -- Rufus, 17:37:22 10/05/02 Sat

All that and of course for Spike fans....half naked Spike.......:):):):):):)

[> [> [> THAT doesn't have anything to do with anything, I'm sure. -- HonorH (being very stiff and proper), 17:45:19 10/05/02 Sat

Pander to their female, James-lusting demographic? That's surely beneath *them*! I personally think you owe TPTB an apology, Rufus. The very thought!

[> [> [> [> Re: THAT doesn't have anything to do with anything, I'm sure. -- Rufus, 17:47:05 10/05/02 Sat

Pardon????? **beneath them** the very people who literally put Spike beneath Buffy????..........couldn't help myself...:):):):)

[> [> [> [> [> It's all a metaphor... a compact, well-muscled metaphor... -- ponygirl drifting, 17:53:26 10/05/02 Sat

[> Re: Something effulgent -- Dariel, 13:06:38 10/05/02 Sat

Nice post. I agree that Spike/William is struggling to become the real person behind the masks, and that he showed that confused person in the final scenes of BY. Also saw the Superman image--the blue shirt. Although that version of Spike reminded me more of someone from a detective novel--cool, calm, sure of himself. As if he were doing an impression of Humphrey Bogart.

I'm don't think I agree about William/s personality being a costume or mask, though. A set of blinders is more like it. William was portrayed as a naive, innocent young man. Who only wanted to think about truth and beauty, who avoids any knowledge about the uglier things in life. I believe this portrayal was meant to be ironic, as William soon becomes one of those uglier things. And now, with a history of murder and mayhem in his head, that kind of innocent stance is not at all useful or viable. Hence his pain and confusion. What matters now is whether his soul contains the inner strength to deal with his current situation.

[> Very good -- Sophist, 08:55:27 10/06/02 Sun

I miss your posts. I was telling someone just the other day that I wish you posted here more often.

[> [> Thanks sophist! -- Anne, 10:36:12 10/06/02 Sun

I'm afraid I've become a total spoiler whore, so especially during the summer this has not been so much the place for me. A lot of my stuff has become related to spoilage/spoilery speculation so I don't consider it all that appropriate. Thank goodness I did catch leslie's wonderful recent post of her/his paper on a recent drive-through, but I probably missed a whole bunch of other great stuff, durn it. Well, now that the season has started I plan to hang around more.

Hopefully if I post again I'll remember the rules for posting a spoiler warnings on this board!

[> [> [> Re: Thanks anne! -- leslie, 11:31:20 10/06/02 Sun

"Thank goodness I did catch leslie's wonderful recent post of her/his paper on a recent drive-through..."

Her. Definitely her. Glad you liked it!

Did you notice?(Lesson/beneath you) -- luvthistle1, 15:49:29 10/05/02 Sat

Did anyone notice that Spike just seemed to appear inside Buffy's
house? This was the second time, he did that. The first was in "SR"

How did Spike change so fast? I can understand the clothes, but his
hair color as well? and the basement Spike had more weight.

Did anyone notice that vamp Spike is from season 2? he hasn't looked
like that since season 2. Also why hasn't his wounds healed?


Buffy touched Spike when he was in the basement, yet she only had a
flashback of the "SR" incident, when he past her the flashlight. I
did not understand why she went looking for him in the basement, but
yet seem upset when he showed up at her door??


When Spike is in the basement in the beginning of Beneath You you can clearly see his reflection in a piece of glass for like at least 5 seconds. it's his whole body. Is it a mistake or intentional?

When Buffy wakes up screaming. she tell Dawn there were screaming , Dawn said that it was her (meaning Buffy) and Buffy said it was this girl , Dawn said "It was me" . could that be foreshadowing of something happening to Dawn?like the people who are chasing the girls are actually after Dawn AKA the key?



I think Spike might had brought back more than a soul. Something that
seems to be feeding off of him. a possible hitchhikers" which Anya
said was a standard way to travel through dimensions. some demon-
thing sees someone moving between worlds, and grabs on for the ride.

Spike is dead,getting his soul might had came with something else
attached. Like what happen to Buffy in "Afterlife"










Willow from "afterlife":

There are Five species of demons that have been known to move
trans dimensionally. Two of them may be invisible in this dimension,
and, , two others can perform spells to alter perception.

[> Re: Did you notice?(Lesson/beneath you) -- ZachsMind, 20:50:47 10/05/02 Sat

Did anyone notice that Spike just seemed to appear inside Buffy's house? This was the second time, he did that. The first was in "SR"

Spike's stealthy. He can enter her house without being noticed.

How did Spike change so fast? I can understand the clothes, but his hair color as well? and the basement Spike had more weight.

I was hoping they'd work in a scene where he was fussing over gel and bleach over a sink. The switch did seem kinda fast, but in Buffy time he had the scene cut to change. There was time there. Kinda like in the old Road Runner cartoons. The Coyote would get crispy crittered in the end of a scene and then after a quick fade to the next scene all the sudden he's good as new. As for the change in weight, the scenes may have been filmed out of order, and James Marsters had eaten a Happy Meal or something. =)

Did anyone notice that vamp Spike is from season 2? he hasn't looked like that since season 2. Also why hasn't his wounds healed?

The wounds thing is for dramatic effect but I agree it's not very realistic. He's a vamp so healing is usually not an issue, but he also has not been feeding healthily recently. He's not thinking straight and is probably feeding on rats rather than going down to the local butcher and getting high quality pig's blood like he was back in season six. He also doesn't have a place to live now where he can keep a stash of blood in a convenient fridge.

Buffy touched Spike when he was in the basement, yet she only had a flashback of the "SR" incident, when he past her the flashlight. I did not understand why she went looking for him in the basement, but yet seem upset when he showed up at her door??

I think this one is an error in writing styles. There may have been more than one person at the helm for "Beneath You." I've read at least one report that Joss Whedon himself wrote the dialogue for the final scene between Buffy & Spike. There's a lot of little inconsistencies but they can be explained away. For example she was alone when she was looking for Spike, and probably wanted to confront him without Xander or Dawn around since they're noticeably ticked off with Spike. When Spike appeared in her house she was probably upset not just cuz it's Spike but because him there at that moment was going to cause tension between her and the other remaining Scoobs.

The deal where they touched with the flashlight and we got the flashback was way too corny. Perhaps required for exposition, so people who hadn't seen previous episodes would have an idea why the tension between them was so thick, but it wasn't one of the finer moments for the writers.

"When Spike is in the basement in the beginning of Beneath You you can clearly see his reflection in a piece of glass for like at least 5 seconds. it's his whole body. Is it a mistake or intentional?"

Mistake. Not intentional. Angel's got a soul but supposedly he doesn't cast a shadow either. Though I haven't seen many Angel episodes, I've read reports that there have been times when Angel accidently cast a reflection too. It's probably something they forget to catch in production and can't fix in time for post production so they just hope we won't notice (and of course we do anyway! LOL!)

"When Buffy wakes up screaming. she tell Dawn there were screaming , Dawn said that it was her (meaning Buffy) and Buffy said it was this girl , Dawn said "It was me" . could that be foreshadowing of something happening to Dawn?like the people who are chasing the girls are actually after Dawn AKA the key?"

I agree, I think it's foreshadowing. Many are assuming that the girls in Instanbul and Germany were potential Slayers, but unless Faith has died, there can't be any more Slayers past her. The Slayer powerline goes from Buffy to Kendra to Faith. So unless later the writers decide that Faith has died and come back to life (plausible since Faith was close to death when she was in a coma, but not likely), those girls can't be slayers. The guys in robes are killing the girls with a sacrificial knife similar to the one that demon dude used on Dawn in the season five finale. I'm thinking there's more than one Key, that the monks have been doing this Key thing for centuries, and there may need to be one Key for every alternate dimension out there that can be accessed from Buffy's universe, of which there are a potentially near infinite amount.

I think Spike might had brought back more than a soul. Something that seems to be feeding off of him. a possible hitchhikers" which Anya said was a standard way to travel through dimensions. some demon-thing sees someone moving between worlds, and grabs on for the ride."

When Buffy came back from the dead, as you mentioned from the epidose "Afterlife," she accidently brought a shade spirit with her that possessed the bodies of some of the Scoobies and almost killed Buffy so that it could live in their reality. It is possible that Spike's got something like that going, but I'm still betting that whatever is haunting Spike is the same thing that was haunting and taunting Angel in the Christmas episode "Amends" back in season two. The First Evil. It may be something that only vampires with souls can see. Or maybe it can only be seen by vampires with souls and slayers who have sex with vampires with souls... *smirk*

[> [> Re: Did you notice?(Lesson/beneath you) -- meritaten, 01:32:00 10/06/02 Sun

In regard to the girls beings killed, I don't think people are saying they are Slayers. I think that theory says that they are potential Slayers whose powers would be bestowed upon the death of Faith. Remember that Kendra was recognized before she received her powers at Buffy's first death.

I also suspect that the BB is linked to Spike's shiny new soul. My theory is that the creature who restores the soul is linked to the First Evil. Pure speculation.

[> [> [> Did you notice?(Lesson/beneath you) -- luvthistle1, 03:37:04 10/06/02 Sun

Dawn is consider a slayer in training. So it more than likely they will go after her. I think she is the one that they are after in the first place. the Knight have never gave up hope of finding the "Key".


Everyone is saying Spike is insane, but when he saw Dawn, He "SAW DAWN", not the green glowing ballof light". Everyone who was insane, were able to see Dawn in her true form. I also notice that Spike did not seem to see the "shapeshifter"until after Xander had broke the "tailsman".

Buffy vs. Dontes inferno -- Nightmare Drusilla, 16:23:34 10/05/02 Sat

This is something that my friends and I have discussed in depth for the past season... was Buffy in heaven?

No, strickly because Buffy was not a religious person,

Joss Whedon has basically stated that there are various different demesions of hell... different cirlces if you will. Now what if he's taking a Dontes Inferno stand point than it would stand to reason that Buffy went to the first circle of hell, you know where all the good pagans go... so now it makes sense, sort of, it would be interesting to see where this is all going, especailly in "Angel" with Cordelias new calling.

[> Regarding Buffy and Dante-- -- HonorH, 16:39:42 10/05/02 Sat

JW is also of no religious persuasion. In the Buffyverse, just as there are different hell dimensions, we're also told by Tara in TR that there are different heavenly dimensions. Not a Heaven, but many heavens. Buffy went to one of those places, possibly as a reward for all her work for the PTBs.

If you're looking at it from strictly a Christian worldview, it doesn't work. If you're looking at it in the context of the Buffyverse, it does. Don't try to shoehorn it into Dante--whole different worldview there.

[> Buffy's death was also a suicide.... -- Rochefort, 16:51:48 10/05/02 Sat

They definitely made undertones of Buffy's leap being a bit of a suicide. Her despair in the days leading up to the jump, the clarity that came with a decision that let her let go of everything with a clear conscious, her telling Dawn that the hardest thing in life was to live in it...

It was like someone gave Willie Loman a big kiss and said "There ya go ol' boy. Drive into that tree. You have my blessing."

So maybe she was in the circle of Dante's hell where the suicides go. At any rate, I think ME went out of their way to make it not matter where she was. We only had to know she was happy being dead. She chose to kill herself and she liked it that way. As a martyr she no longer had to feel her slayer burden or worry about her friends or saving the world. For Buffy, that was heaven. Who needs glowing lights and angels?

(Joss is a confirmed old atheist, and likely to remain so.)

[> [> Re: Buffy's death -- Robert, 21:41:30 10/05/02 Sat

>>> "Buffy's death was also a suicide...."

By the strict dictionary definition, you are correct -- it was suicide.

According to Merriam-Webster;
suicide (noun)
1 a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind b : ruin of one's own interests
2 : one that commits or attempts suicide

Only definition 1a applies to this discussion. This definition makes no moral judgement about the act of killing oneself, but your posting does.

You wrote:
>>> "She chose to kill herself and she liked it that way."

This interpretation I find to be excessively cynical. Let me pose the following scenario.

We have a war and two soldiers are situated in a fox hole, and in drops a live hand grenade. The first soldier throws himself on the grenade, sufficiently absorbing the blast and shrapnel to save the second soldier's life. Did the first soldier commit suicide? He might have saved himself by shielding his body with that of the second soldier, or he might have done nothing, thus allowing both to die. I prefer to believe that the first soldier committed an act of self-sacrifice to save a fellow soldier, rather than longing for death.

While on the tower in "The Gift", Buffy was presented with three choices, and ONLY three choices.

1. She and Dawn could do nothing and everyone dies.

2. She could allow Dawn to die and everyone else lives.

3. She could die and Dawn and everyone else lives.

The scenario of the episode allowed no other choices. Given such choices, what was the right thing to do? Buffy had previously stated that she would sooner sacrifice the universe before she would allow anyone to hurt Dawn. This reduces her choices to #1 and #3. By taking choice #3, she committed an act of self-sacrifice.

You wrote:
>>> "So maybe she was in the circle of Dante's hell where the suicides go."

To suggest that Buffy's act was just cause for damnation is far too condemning. By this logic, Jesus Christ himself would be damned to hell. Is there no room for compassion for the people who are called upon to make an ultimate sacrifice?

[> [> [> It's the difference between rejecting a gift and giving it. -- HonorH, 21:54:58 10/05/02 Sat

I ought to link up a particular fanfic here. Elena Zovatto has Spike meet Neil Gaiman's Death after "The Gift," and he asks her for assurance that Buffy's at peace. He, too, brings up the suicide question, and Death's answer is my subject line. For the purely Christian side of the equation, the answer is: "Greater love has no one than this: that she should give up her life for her friends." Paraphrased just slightly to adjust for gender, of course, and I can't think of the reference right off my head, but it's in the Bible.

[> [> [> Suicide? Martyrdon -- Tchaikovsky, 08:36:59 10/06/02 Sun

If Buffy's death was in any sense a suicide, then in a similar sense, so was Jesus'. Buffy died to save the world when it was physically possible for her not to do so.

Similarly, Jesus, without any kind of miracle, could have escpaed from crucifixion by some cunning wordplay with Pontius Pilate. Instead, he died, according to the Bible, to save the world from hell.

As did Buffy.

And we really wouldn't consider Jesus a suicide case. He was the ultimate martyr. Whether we believe in the story, or whether we treat it merely as a myth or allegory, nobody explains Jesus' course of action as committing suicide. In my opinion, it is equally incorrect to do so with Buffy in 'The Gift'.

[> [> [> [> Re: Suicide? Martyrdon -- Robert, 22:26:14 10/06/02 Sun

>>> "In my opinion, it is equally incorrect to do so with Buffy in 'The Gift'."

Yes, this was entirely my point. In a way, it was even more sad for Buffy, because martyrdom usually implies that the person is witnessing a religion or principle to a population. However, Buffy's death had to be kept a secret, and certainly no one could be told why she died. From the point of witnessing, her death was meaningless, which makes Buffy an ultimate martyr.

I am personally amazed that Buffy's dive off the tower is interpreted by some as simple suicide, worthy of damnation. To see it as such indicates to me a truly cynical view of the world.

[> [> Re: Buffy's death was also a suicide.... -- TRM, 00:46:45 10/06/02 Sun

Isn't the suicide part of hell, the one where everyone is a form of shrubbery with their bodies hanging on their branches -- never to be reunited with their bodies again, even at the point of Last Judgement? That's rather frightening...

And the outermost region of Hell seemed to be reserved for unknowing pagans, e.g., Socrates, John the Baptist (who was later removed), etc. People who couldn't have believed in Christ because he wasn't quite born yet.

As a knowing pagan, she would have been one of those people who lived in her sepulchre or whatnot, with the open coffins. I don't exactly remeber what the punishment was.

I wouldn't exactly buy a Danteain-Hell interpretation of Buffy's death, but perhaps you can make it some sort of Danteain/Existentialist heaven. That Buffy goes to the place that matches her virtues (and vices), probably created by the choices that she made and her conception of the afterlife.

[> For all we know... -- Harry Parachute, 17:07:04 10/05/02 Sat

Buffy might have attained reunification with the Atman and escape from the cycle of rebirth because she followed her Dharma as a metaphorical member of the Kshatria Varna. Hey, she's just like Arjuna! Joss is a Hindu! Who knew? :)

Seriously though, Joss tends to keep away from the murky waters of established religion. However, for that reason you're able to interpret the themes and messages anyway you want. Be you Christian, Sihk, or uh...Zoroastrian, you can always ask WWBSD.

[> Re: Buffy vs. Dontes inferno -- Rufus, 17:33:38 10/05/02 Sat

If you think of heaven as a concept without specific religious label, then, yes, Buffy was in heaven....a place where she was warm, safe, loved....and the battle was over.

[> [> Rochefort's Rebuttle: Buffy vs. Jesus -- Rochefort, 09:58:13 10/06/02 Sun

I come up with provocative titles. I wonder if the winner of J-bone's contest should face off against major religious figures.

O.k., but seriously, the point a couple of you made that Jesus gave his life for others and Buffy gave her life for others is true. If we examine things purely in form of action and don't get into psychology, fine.

But Buffy's state of mind leading UP to the leap from the tower was not Jesus's state of mind. Jesus was all pissed off in the garden and sweating blood and on the cross all "Why did God forsake me?" and Jesus LOVED life. Jesus was all let's drink wine and hang out with Mary Magdeline and talk to the lepers and let's have nice dinners with all my friends and preach love and it's all nice and cool.

Buffy was like "If this is the way the world is, I don't want to live in it." I don't REALLY mean that Buffy's death was a suicide in that she wasn't purely a "I quit" situation. She got a bonus. A clear situation. "I can kill myself AND be a hero." What happened was the events presented themselves that ALLOWED Buffy to do what a lot of her WANTED to do. Die. In the tower scene in The Gift the world is all beautiful and clear, all of the confusion of Buffy's life is resolved in one simple jump.

In the second episode of Season Six she returns to the tower but now it's all dark and haunted and creaky and there's no beautiful music. BUT SHE STILL WANTS TO JUMP! She longs for the moment when killing herself was the RIGHT choice cause she wants to die. Cause it was a lot more simple than life.

I'm also not making a moral statement on suicide. I don't think it's morally wrong to kill yourself. The Romans thought killing yourself at the right time was brave and noble. And yes, Buffy DIDN'T jump off the tower the second time when there wasn't a sacrafice to be made, but only because she had to save Dawn. (she had to die for others before, now she has to live for them, but how much easier it was for her to kill herself for others than live for them) Again, it's like Willie Loman killing himself for the life insurance money to save his family. The psychology and emotions leading up to the jump were one's that made the jump clearly the preferable choice to Buffy and her suicidal tendencies contributed. Of course it was the heroic choice. But when she's back alive the suicidal tendencies that were there before the jump remain. In that, dying didn't fix the fact that she didn't want to be alive. She returns in the same emotional state, exasperated by the fact that death is no longer an escape.

[> [> [> postscript: the cult of martyrdom -- Rochefort, 10:07:53 10/06/02 Sun

We live in a society formed by Christianity (even if we aren't Christians). And Christianity at its base glorifies Martyrdom. Maybe we should question that. Maybe all of us hanging around to figure out how to do things together is more heroic than leaping off towers or flying into them. Not that the Buffy episode isn't saying this. The episode agrees with me through the undertones of suicide in Buffy's leap. And through even Buffy's understanding that living life (especially in a world overrun by demons) is way harder than jumping off a tower for ANY cause. And just as added evidence that Buffy's jump was partly suicidal, Buffy tries to kill herself twice in season six. Once on the tower again and Dawn stops her, and once in OMWF when Spike stops her. As I said, this is merely a continuance of the psychological state she was in in The Gift. Not something new.

[> [> [> [> Re: postscript: the cult of martyrdom -- pr10n, 11:32:25 10/06/02 Sun

I concur that Buffy was depressed at the end of her life -- tired, lonely, confused.

I disagree that she embraced oblivion -- rather, I think she saw a way to solve the problem of Glory's hell-god ascension, and a way to close the portal, and a way to save her loved ones, that relied on one act that only she could perform: her own death.

There's the basis of Christianity: not martyrdom but sacrifice. Martyrdom requires analysis after the act. Sacrifice required analysis before the act. The same tenet holds true for modern Christians: give up your life in God's service. The same tenet holds true for many other religious beliefs as well: disciplne yourselves, deny yourselves, make the All's will your will, and live a happy life at the same time.

I paraphrase a cliche (stealing from the alt-country band Freakwater for fun) "There is nothing more beautiful then the kindness of an atheist." Joss's vision includes sacrifice for the good of others -- God(s) may not be in the scenery at all.

[> [> [> [> So, Buffy is a terrorist? -- Robert, 23:53:02 10/06/02 Sun

>>> "... is more heroic than leaping off towers or flying into them."

You are absolutely unbelievable. I never realized the you hated the Buffy character so much, that you would consider her actions to be equivalent to those of mass murderers.

>>> "And Christianity at its base glorifies Martyrdom."

Oh it does, does it? For someone who claims not to be a Christian, you seem to think you know a lot about my faith.

Some denominations, sects, and cults glorify martyrdom, and some do not. Some (such as the denomination to which I belong) honor the fallen in much the same way citizens of the United States honor fallen soldiers or police officers or firefighters.

To make statements so sweeping as to include my faith with those of terrorists is exceedingly insulting. If you would like to know what my faith is, just ask. Don't lump me in with murdering extremists.

>>> "And through even Buffy's understanding that living life (especially in a world overrun by demons) is way harder than jumping off a tower for ANY cause."

Just because Buffy has motive to desire to die is not evidence that she actually did want to die.

>>> "And just as added evidence that Buffy's jump was partly suicidal, Buffy tries to kill herself twice in season six. Once on the tower again and Dawn stops her, and once in OMWF when Spike stops her."

I dispute both these examples. In "Once More With Feeling", Buffy did not demonstrate a desire to die, she was compelled towards combustion by Sweet. I agree, that if she had not been in a deep depression at the time, that this likely would not have happened. This brings me to your first example. In "Bargaining", Buffy was not in the same state of mind as in "The Gift". Buffy had spent some unmeasured amount of time (or timelessness) in paradise. I don't know if it was heaven or not. But Buffy clearly thought of it as a paradise.

Her description of her paradise in "Afterlife" showed just how hard it was to return to life. This was obviously intended as an extremely profound event in Buffy's life. Many people suffer profound events in their lives which can send them into a depression. Sometimes the depression can lead to suicide. This does not mean that they were always suicidal, just waiting for the right trigger to send them over the edge.

>>> "As I said, this is merely a continuance of the psychological state she was in in The Gift. Not something new."

Can you provide some evidentiary examples of Buffy's suicidal tendencies, before her trip off the tower?

[> [> [> Well written: I respectfully disagree -- Tchaikovsky, 10:18:24 10/06/02 Sun

A splendid argument, but not one I agree with.

First off, Jesus wasn't weary of life in the same way Buffy was, but I don't think the phrase 'let's have nice dinners and hang out with my friends' really describes the last supper that well. Jesus was already aware of his impending crucifixion, (in the Bible, John's Gospel, at least), points out that one of the disciples will betray him, and says a lot of profound things, ('I am the vine and you the branches', 'Eat this in memory of me', 'Love one another as I have loved you. By this shall they know that you are my disciples',) which appear to show his readiness to do what has become necessary by fate.

This is exactly what Buffy thinks. Her jump is necessary for fate. It seems right. I disagree with it being a leap of resignation with a bonus. I think she feels the essential rightness of it, that it is her destiny, that Fate, (a big and tangible thing in the Buffyverse,) is asking her to do that, and I think that she deals with it admirably. If we look at 'The Gift', is Buffy entirely world weary throughout? I don't know. Her speech, ('not exactly the St Crispin's Day speech') is short but functional, and the best thing to do, with little time remaining. She is still very angry about any suggestion that her sister should be killed. She confronts Giles. She spearheads the final attack.

I think you see her essential vitality is still there when you compare it to Bargaining 2, where I believe she genuinely is suicidal. Life is merely hell now, she has no purpose, she is directionless and vague. Only familial bonds save her.

[> [> [> [> Agreeing with the Russian composer. -- HonorH, 11:22:27 10/06/02 Sun

Buffy didn't want to die in "The Gift"--she wanted to save Dawn, to find a reason to go on living. It was the world she wasn't sure was worth saving, if it demanded Dawn's life as a penalty for its existence. In those last moments, when she saw a way to save Dawn and the world with her own death, she accepted her fate and was at peace. The world was worth saving because it demanded only her own life, not the life of the one she loved the most--her sister/child.

[> [> [> [> [> How to take the second tower scene then? -- Rochefort, 12:34:03 10/06/02 Sun

I like the respectful and gentle(wo)manly tone of the discussion. So often things get pursued with a sort of "smackdown" mentality here. Philosophical smackdown.

So a doff of the hat.

How would you two take the second tower scene, when Buffy is in the same place and still wants to jump off? Partly she is trying to make sense of a traumatic event... yes.

But I think to read Buffy's season six malaise simply as "Heaven was great. I want to go back" doesn't fully explain it. In that, the Buffyverse makes room for atheism and the absense of any conventional idea of the afterlife. Also, Buffy's struggle has always been intended as the struggle of an actual girl in American society, not as the struggle of someone in a mythological world divorced from our own. And in this world people don't go to heaven and come back. So I don't think that works as the reason that Buffy is suicidal in season 6.

When Buffy, in season 6, doesn't want to be alive, (as I'm sure you'd agree, at least in season 6, this is the case) do you take this as something that has its root only in the fact that she was in "heaven?"

It seems to me that Buffy, beginning in season 5, is looking for desperate answers to the struggle of adulthood. She says in season 5, "I do have a life. Dawn's life." And she doesn't say this in a happy, "oh goody" sort of way. It's a bitter statement, it's a "I'm martyring myself for Dawn and I hope someone appreciates that," sort of statement. She says it spitefully to Willow. Not only does she have to grow up like her friends, she has to do it quicker because she has to take on the role of a parent. It's a lot to take. One place that Buffy looks for an escape from this is death. (also: sex with the dead) But partly suicide. (at least you'd give me that's the case in season 6). What happens when they bring her back from the dead, is that this option is denied Buffy. She had nice clear clean answers and no longer had to deal with being an adult with a young girl to take care of and now she DOES have to again and so the same problems resurface with one less answer to them. So then she tries to be a child again. And Giles won't let her do that either.

Season six (especially if the writing had been better) is the first part of Buffy accepting the responsibilities of adulthood and the struggles, tragedies, and hard work of life withOUT diving (pun) into easy answers. When Buffy returns from the grave, its consistent with the real world because suicide ISN'T an option in the real world for dealing with adulthood. At least the type of killing oneself that is a black and white "stop the demons" sort of death. (unless you start defining demons and evil in a George Bush sort of way). What Buffy doesn't want in season six is real adult life, and that's what she's feeling in the second half of season 5, too. But the end of season 5 gives her an easy out. When she says she doesn't want to live in a world in which Dawn will be taken, ... that IS the world she lives in. If this isn't the case in our own lives out here, it is in the Buffy-verse where Tara stands in the same place for Dawn, except for Willow, and she dies... and Willow's going evil is no more of an option than suicide. It is also the case for Buffy's friends when BUFFY dies. Now they're living in an ugly yucky world that could take their friend and that's just how it is. So you just keep living and keep fighting. And that's the world she has to find a way to live in, without having the luxury of jumping off a building.

That's why I think Buffy's season six suicidal impulses are a continuation of Buffy's season five suicidal impulses. It's one long uninterupted continum of the struggle to live in the adult world. By the way, "Normal Again" is another such escape from adulthood option that Buffy finds she can't take. We can skip out on ugly reality by going mad, killing ourselves, taking drugs (bad willow drug metaphor), trying to revert to childhood...

I think of the season five jump as all part of that.


As a side point, the graying up of the black-and-white world that keeps happening more and more to Buffy takes away the option, even without suicidal tendencies, of martyrdom. In that, in real life, people normally do things like raise barricades to overthrow the government, or strap bombs to themselves when in their early twenties. When good and bad seem simple. And maybe it seems, in a fictional world, or from a young perspective, that you're sacraficing yourself for a clear-cut cause. But even without the suicidal subtext of the jump, sacrafice for a war against demons, I imagine, is going to be further problematized.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreeing with the Cheese -- TRM, 13:37:25 10/06/02 Sun

I don't think the principal reason for Buffy's death in "The Gift" was suicide, but I do believe that it played a part in her actions. Rather than phrase her act as "a leap of resignation with a bonus," I would rephrase it as an act of saving the world with a bonus. She did it to save the world and her sister, but there may have been some underlying emotions that also reinforced her decision.

We shouldn't forget the foreshadowing of Spike in "Fool for Love."

SPIKE: That final gasp. That look of peace. Part of you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it lead you? And now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or the kicks you didn't land. Every Slayer... has a death wish.

Arguably, season 5 was one of the toughest years on Buffy -- the lost of Riley and her mother; both characters who acted as some sort of safety net for Buffy. The second to last episode was titled "The Weight of the World" which implies a crushing degree of responsibility on Buffy's part. What I also find convincing, provoked by reading Spike's speech, is the look of peace that Buffy had as she jumped off the tower. She didn't realize all would be well when she was in heaven or a heavenly dimension; she realized this before she jumped, perhaps, as a consequence of her decision. She wanted peace.

It's intriguing to note the juxtaposition of death with sex with Spike in "Fool for Love."

SPIKE: Sooner or later, you're gonna want it. And the second- the second- that happens... You know I'll be there. I'll slip in... have myself a real good day.

He refers here to killing Buffy, but segues into loving Buffy. Buffy seeks out Spike in season 6 denied her grand death in search, perhaps, for a petite mort.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> nicely said. -- petite fromage, 13:51:44 10/06/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not agreeing with the Cheese -- Robert, 00:01:09 10/07/02 Mon

>>> "She did it to save the world and her sister, but there may have been some underlying emotions that also reinforced her decision."

Do you believe that Buffy would have chosen any other option on the tower, if suicidal tendencies where not an issue?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Absolutely, Buffy wanted to die in S6. -- HonorH, 16:59:13 10/06/02 Sun

Her affair with Spike was a type of oblivion. Literally sleeping with Death, and only after she found out he could hurt her.

However, I don't think her "Gift" jump was really a part of that. Let's take a scenario: Spike manages to stop Doc from cutting Dawn, and everybody's okay. The world hasn't demanded Dawn's life, and things make sense again. Her S6 depression might still have existed--it would be a wonder if, with all the changes in her life over the year, it didnt--but I don't think it would've been nearly as severe. Part of the depression was explicitly the fact that she'd been *finished* with all this, and was brought back.

I also don't see the tower scene in "Bargaining" or even OMWF as being suicide attempts. In the tower scene, Buffy wasn't coherent enough to really understand she was alive again. Per her question to Dawn, she didn't know exactly where she was--some hell dimension or what-not. The tower was the last place where things made sense, so she went back.

As for OMWF, it may sound like a copout, but she was under a spell, like the guy who burned himself out tap-dancing. Her emotions overwhelmed her in the song, as they had with at least two others, and she couldn't stop herself. Not until Spike stopped her. She made no other attempts at suicide, not outright.

Which isn't to say she wasn't into self-destructiveness. Sleeping with Spike was a way she could find oblivion. Eventually, though, she realized it was too easy an answer, and not exactly helpful. AYW, no matter what one might think of it as an episode, was a turning point for her. She'd gotten a job to become a responsible semi-adult, she was mending fences with her sister, and finally, she broke off the relationship that was harming her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I disagree about OMWF... -- Rochefort, 17:33:14 10/06/02 Sun

Buffy CLEARLY is accepting that she's gonna burn up and die when she goes there. When she sets out the terms of their agreement she says something like "Doesn't matter" about her being a bride in hell. "give me something to sing about" is partly "give me a reason to be alive" and he shakes his head that he won't which is when she goes nutso. Also, like I said, I think "She was under a spell" and things like that don't work for the real emotional life stuff of Buffy. The "spell" was just a manifestation of how Buffy felt about life.

I do think the Bargaining tower scene was a place where Buffy had sense and so she was going back there, but that sense was death, and she clearly wanted to take that step again. When she asks if she's in a hell dimension, she isn't. It's just real life, the same real life she left. And real life feels like hell to her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> agree but not for the same reason -- anom, 21:05:41 10/06/02 Sun

"I also don't see the tower scene in "Bargaining" or even OMWF as being suicide attempts. In the tower scene, Buffy wasn't coherent enough to really understand she was alive again....The tower was the last place where things made sense, so she went back."

There's a song whose lyrics say: "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." I think when Buffy climbs the tower in Bargaining, she's hoping she can go back to heaven. I know facial expressions are subject to interpretation, & I haven't watched the episode again recently, but there were 2 times she seemed about to cry, & they're both when she looks down & sees just the ordinary, physical world--no interdimensional rift to jump into. I think she was hoping to see the sunrise reflected toward her like a gleaming path, as in the scene from The Gift she plays back in her head, but all she sees is hard, cold concrete. I think she wants the 1st but not the 2nd--heaven, not death per se. The sight of the concrete below seems to cause her to draw back from the edge.

[> [> [> [> [> [> A couple more reasons to argue -- Tchaikovsky, 02:55:48 10/07/02 Mon

Eloquent again. I agree with the line 'to read Buffy's season six malaise simply as "Heaven was great. I want to go back" doesn't fully explain it'. However, I'd like to explain it in a slightly different way from you. The one thing that Buffy claims characterises the place that she never baldly states was heaven; 'I think I was in heaven' in both 'Afterlife' and 'Once More With Feeling', was that she knew everyone she cared for was safe. She's particularly thinking of Dawn here. After her jump, saving the world and, for her, more importantly, her sister, what could possibly be a greater feeling than a complete knowledge that her sister was well and surviving. Even, (and maybe this is a crux of the argument), if she wasn't. In this sense, it could be seen to be a selfish place, a selfish feeling, in that it wasn't genuinely true.

Eventually, the echoes that Dawn's words give her of 'The Gift' make her think in her desperately disturbed state that jumping was the right thing to do, and is the right thing to do. Here she is wrong. But her basic survival instinct kicks in when the tower starts to collapse. Ultimately, she doesn't want to be crushed to death by the tower. She is confused and suicidal, but only while she still thinks that the world, (full of rapist motorbikers destroying you [the Buffybot] incidentally), is hell.

I also agree with the thoughts of the other respondents. If we strip away the situation of Glory and Dawn, would Buffy have independently committed suicide? No. And in places where there was ANY other option available to her, (ie 'the five apocalypses' which 'seem like a hundred' [metanarration here if it hasn't been mentioned before]) she saved herself and the world. It is only when she realises that she can only save the world, (and Dawn) by sacrificing herself that she goes ahead and dives.

Perhaps in Season Six, the idea of an easy dive into death is considered alluring by Buffy. Maybe, in 'Once More, With Feeling' she is a touch suicidal, although we have been shown that Sweet has immense power for mind control and co-ercive singing [O/T like Joss?], so even that's debatable. But wanting to go back to something because it has a convenient conclusion NOW, doesn't mean that you did it for that same convenient reason in the first place.

I still do not believe that 'The Gift' had any element of suicide. However, I think we may argue ourselves into the ground here, and so, Rochefort, I offer a draw.

[> [> [> Finals: JBone -- Tchaikovsky, 10:23:19 10/06/02 Sun

The four characters not allowed to play-off in The Road to Sunnydale play off against four religious figures:

Mind:

Giles v Jesus

Hand:

Buffy v Mohammad

Heart:

Xander v Moses

Spirit:

Willow v Buddha

PS Only light-heated; please don't take offence

[> [> [> [> Religious figures smackdown -- Rochefort, 12:41:24 10/06/02 Sun

That's how I imagine these battles. They sort of wander into the ring and try to think good thoughts, or do acts of kindness to one another, or live in peace better than their opponent.

"Oh, Buddah is getting close to Nirvana, he's getting close. NO! Willow hits him with a flying jump kick and wrecks his concentration!"

"Giles is in the corner of the ring singing 60's folk-rock and...here's Jesus...yes...he's pulling out a tub of water, and he's...he's DANCING ON IT. Look at him go!"

"Xander has Moses on the run. But there's no where for Moses to go! Xander has him trapped. Moses, what's he doing? Oh no! He's parting the sea of people! Xander responds by trying to get Moses in a headlock but.... there's a flash and Moses produces a stone tablet. No headlocks allowed! This is the 10th move that has been disallowed Xander by commandment. He's rapidly running out of options."

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Religious figures smackdown -- JM, 14:16:55 10/06/02 Sun

Tremendous. Looks like the religious inspiration-role model types are winning. This version seems much superior to celebrity boxing -- even the claymation version.

[> [> [> Re: Rochefort's Rebuttle: Buffy vs. Jesus -- Robert, 23:24:54 10/06/02 Sun

>>> "... and her suicidal tendencies contributed."

Can you please give examples of Buffy's suicidal tendencies, before "The Gift" (ie. before being yanked out of paradise)?

>>> "I'm also not making a moral statement on suicide."

I disagree!

In your first posting, you wrote;
>>> "So maybe she was in the circle of Dante's hell where the suicides go."

Thus, you made the moral judgement that Buffy's actions were worthy of damnation. Refuting this was the entire argument of my response.

>>> "I don't think it's morally wrong to kill yourself."

My opinion is different than yours. I believe that it may or may not be morally wrong to kill oneself. It depends upon the circumstances.

>>> "BUT SHE STILL WANTS TO JUMP!"

This statement implies that Buffy wanted to jump off the tower in "The Gift". I dispute this. I believe she achieved a clarity of mind while on the tower with Dawn, but that she never desired to jump off the tower, if for no other reason than that I don't believe she would want to leave Dawn. After all, it was Dawn who pulled her back in "Bargaining" when she thought she was in hell.

>>> "Buffy was like "If this is the way the world is, I don't want to live in it.""

I realize that you are providing a paraphrase, but I believe it is misleading. While speaking with Giles in "The Gift", Buffy said (according to the shooting script):

"I sacrificed Angel to save the world.
I loved him so much... but I knew.
What was right. I don't have that
any more. I don't understand.
I don't know how to live in this world,
if these are the choices, if everything's
just stripped away then I don't see
the point. I just wish... I wish my
mom was here."

There is certainly a large measure of despair indicated here, but I don't see this as an admission of suicidal tendencies. Buffy felt very alone and out of options, but she never gave up fighting.

>>> "The psychology and emotions leading up to the jump were one's that made the jump clearly the preferable choice to Buffy and her suicidal tendencies contributed."

I am sensing a circular argument here. Assuming that Buffy had zero suicidal tendencies, do you believe that Buffy would have taken a different option? My answer is NO! The only other options where Dawn's death or the death of everything. Buffy would still have gone off the tower, and her actions are not evidence of suicidal tendencies. What evidence is there that she had suicidal tendencies?

>>> "What happened was the events presented themselves that ALLOWED Buffy to do what a lot of her WANTED to do. Die."

She had many opportunities to die the hero. Regardless, she always fought for life, for herself and for others.

[> [> [> [> I think the fact that she feels this way about life and deals with it IS heroic. -- Rochefort, 23:37:45 10/06/02 Sun

The comment about her being in Dante's hell was a response to an earlier post, musing on if Buffy went to hell. I don't think Dante's inferno is fair or just to people, so she might have just got lost in the shuffle and ended up there. ;)

I think that the evidence for her feelings in season 5 lie in the frustration she had over having to take care of Dawn "I don't have a life. I have Dawn's life." In the catatonia she went into. In the fact that before she jumped she said "I understand now." In the fact that she told Dawn the hardest thing about life is living in it. In the fact, as an earlier poster said, that in jumping she seemed at peace as she fell. In the fact that she was in a great deal of turmoil that this seemed to end. And in the quote you said she says right there "I don't see the point."

At any rate, I think the fact that Buffy feels the same life pressures that all of us do but keeps on keeps on keeping on makes her MORE of a hero, not less. And I don't think her jump was fully a suicide. I just think there was a clear subtext of suicide.

[> To see once more the stars -- fresne, 12:33:13 10/07/02 Mon

Like a red flag you wave the topic before me. You mention Buffy, par for the course, but then you refer to Dante Aligheri. He who wrote in the sweet new style. Who wrote of Caritas, which is the color of deepest blood red, and the way in which loving someone outside of yourself opens you up to the primal love that connects and moves the universe.

Sigh.

Sadly, I don't really have time to get into a big long essay on all the correlations and connections that I see between Buffy and Dante. Happily, I don't really have to.

Now, then cracking my knuckles. Last April, pausing for a dÈj‡ vu moment, I wrote a wee bit of cross over fanfic with the extremely short title:

Dante and Virgil's wild and Wacky, yet Efficacious, adventures in the Lands Buffalonious, Angelic, and Britannic, with some small appearances by familiar characters: a Comedy in 3 parts (three parts each, sortof),

Quite a bit of my thinking at the time about Buffy, Dante, Medieval Literature, Romantic Literature is written up in the Endnotes and Footnotes and truth be told in offhand remarks by the characters.

I'm also absolutely in love with the Inferno reference made on Angel/aNW (I just want to add that our archives rock.)

With Six Eyes he was weeping - Inferno and A New World ñ spoilers"

I said at the time and I still maintain that it is one of the nicest bits of literary references that one might every wish to see. A single passage with lots of un-packable meaning. The more I think about it, the more it interweaves.

Anyway, as to your question was Buffy in Heaven or was she in Limbo (the first level of hell where good pagans go.). Hmm.

Well, since I'm inclined to see BtVS as dancing with an infinite variety of literary partners that came before (one of those constantly switching partners dances), I'm not sure that I'd care to put that strict an interpretation on where she was.

However, what she describes, a place of perfect peace and love, works pretty well with what Dante attempted to encompass with mere human (if you can call anything Dante wrote mere) language in Paradisio. On several occasions, Dante complained of the difficulty of attempting to capture the ineffable with the finite and yet we get into the final Cantos of Paradisio becoming practically drunk on joy. Great stuff.

Anyway, back to the whole Limbo question, what Buffy describes doesn't really sound like Limbo. Okay, it does and it doesn't. I'll explain. In the Comedia, one of the primary metaphors is that light represents love/God/connection/seeing/lots of good stuff. Darkness, represents being cut off. Keep in mind the good pagans whisper sorrowfully to one another, because they are in darkness/cut off.

So, while Buffy's heaven was dark, I don't get the impression that it was lightless. (i.e., cut off from connection to the primal love. Quite the reverse in fact.)

Of course, Buffy could be living in the high rent area of Limbo. The really good Pagans (and a few Muslims, which in context is a bit confusing) live in a somewhat lit castle with a bit of grass. It's nice, but it's not heaven. Actually, the question of good pagan's condemned to hell really bothered Dante and it's something that comes up over and over as he wrestles with the question of people condemned to hell for no reason other than they lived before Christ.

Buffy as someone who lived after the life of Christ does not qualify, in Dante terms, as a pagan. Although, I suppose she could have gotten in under the Muslims that Dante thought were pretty cool clause.

As to the suicide/martyrdom thing. Well, again in a purely Dante way, remember that Cato, who committed suicide, greets Virgil and Dante at the shores of Purgatory. Since he was a pagan it's a little odd, his wife is in Limbo, but he is largely allegorical, so there you go. More useful would be St. Claire, who contacted Beatrice about Dante's problems and was a martyr. Basically, heaven is full of people who sacrificed their lives for God/love. The crucial difference would seem to be that the people in the Wood of the Suicides killed themselves because they focused on themselves, while martyrs died thinking of others.

At this point, as I scroll down the thread, it's easy to get caught up in a, but Buffy wanted to die dispute. I'm not sure that I care.

Buffy was called upon to sacrifice her sister to save the world and in that flashing ephiphanic moment realized the other thing. If she was also motivated by weariness, that cannot, for me at least, mitigate the power of the epiphany.

However, epiphanies are fleeting and life is frequently a muddle. Thus we began S6 with Buffy lost and alone in a dark wood, the true way lost. It takes her all season to find it again.

It is here where the Dante parallel lies. At one time or another, we all find ourselves lost in the wood. Sometimes the easy path is blocked by lions and leopards and wolves. Sometimes, you have to go the wrong/long way round through hell and face all its threats in order to emerge and see once more the stars.

Huh, that was a lot longer than I intended. Since, I could meanderingly go on, but I really do need to get some lunch, I shall pause and let others meanderingly go.