Previous October 2002

More October 2002

Why did Anya do it? (SPOILERS 7.2) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 11:38:07 10/02/02 Wed

I'm not quite ready to start chiming in on the good writing/bad writing debate that has already begun but I do have a question that may bring that topic into the mix: why did Anya take a wish that a man be turned into a worm and change it into the transformation of a man into a "shuggoth demon"? A worm would go totally unnoticed while a demon that left so much destruction in its wake would inevitably attract attention, probably slayer-related attention at that. When I first watched the episode I thought that it was just a somewhat clumsy plot device ME was using to bring Spike, Anya and the remaining Scoobies together so they could address the unfinished business of last year and get this season started in earnest. After having slept on it, however, I think the writers may have been doing something more subtle and devious; it may be that something so obvious on Anya's part was a cry for attention, a plea by her for the gang to step back into life and help her to extricate herself, a second time, from her vengence demon status. The real question(s) may be how much of this is conscious on her part and, if she does slip out of D' Hoffryn's clutches, does she want to be with Xander and the gang again or to do something else? Any opinions?

[> In Defense of Anya... (somewhat) -- ZachsMind, 12:00:41 10/02/02 Wed

The week before, Hallfrek was cautioning Anyanka about how "this is a bad time to be a good guy." Hallie knows that Anya doesn't have what it takes anymore. She was partially trying to warn Anya that if she doesn't start acting evil again she's gonna lose more than just her powers this time.

Anya asked Hallie where her other friends were from the underworld for this 'intervention'. Hallie told her all her friends (among the evil baddies) were already there. Now either that means Hallie's her only demon friend, or Hallie's a liar. I happen to think both might be the case. Hallie's always competed with Anya, and now Hallie's got the upper hand. She's basically (politely yet very catty) sticking Anya's nose in it.

Anya turned the frog guy french instead because her mind's not in the game. One could argue that she felt sorry for the guy, but that's not in keeping with her character. As Xander pointed out, Anya shows more compassion for furry creatures than any humans. After the talk with Hallie, Anya's trying to prove her value to her vengeance demon buddies, so when Nancy said she wished Ronnie was a worm, Anya turned him into the worst worm she could imagine, to prove her worth and value.

We can argue that she was also crying for help, or trying to get attention. However, I think Anya was just trying to prove to Hallie & D'Hoffryn that she's still got it.

Why'd she let Xander talk her into undoing it, KNOWING the inevitable ramifications (restrictions to or losing her powers or her soul)? THAT's what I'd like to know.

Anya's SCREWED now, and again, it's all thanks to Xander.

[> [> Now how did I manage to miss -- dream of the consortium, 12:10:44 10/02/02 Wed

that the couple were named Nancy and Ronnie?

[> [> [> And on top of that... -- Darby, 12:28:10 10/02/02 Wed

...Nancy and Sluggoth?!?!

[> [> [> [> Spike never once said "Nancy boy" the whole episode, did he? Hrm... -NT -- ZachsMind, 15:51:46 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Hee! n/t -- Annoying1, 16:27:21 10/02/02 Wed

n/t

[> [> [> Ok, I'm confused -- meritaten, 20:28:46 10/02/02 Wed

I know who you are referring to, but I don't get the humor.

[> [> LMAO! -- lynx, 16:50:49 10/02/02 Wed

[> Re: Why did Anya do it? (SPOILERS 7.2) -- HumanTale, 12:05:50 10/02/02 Wed

I hadn't really noticed the "worm/shuggoth demon" discrepancy yet (I generally don't notice these things until repeat viewings), but it wouldn't surprise me that that's where ME is heading with this.

As additional evidence for this, when Anya was asking Spike how he got it (his soul) back, she sounded frantically imploring to me. It sounded to me as if she was asking Spike how he did it so she could do the same.

(As an aside: I don't remember it ever being addressed, although I know it's been debated here. Anya, when she was human the first time, had a soul. Did she lose it when she became a vengeance demon? If yes, did she get it back when she became human again? If yes, did she lose it again when she became a vengeance demon again? My guess it that it makes my teeth hurt to think about it.)

[> [> Re: Why did Anya do it? (SPOILERS 7.2) -- Vickie, 13:28:54 10/02/02 Wed

We don't really know anything about the state of Anya's soul. Nothing's ever appeared on screen as far as I can recall, and no one on the board has ever asserted so that I've seen.

As for Anya sounding "frantically imploring," I thought she just sounded amazed.

[> [> [> Anyanka still has her soul... -- ZachsMind, 15:57:46 10/02/02 Wed

I reference atpobtvs for this one:

"...it seems as though she were human once and that in turning into a demon nothing was really taken away from her. In other words, she was augmented but not really changed..."

She's a normal human female who, at a relatively young age, was taken under D'Hoffryn's wing. Her age was frozen and she received special vengeanc demony powers, but beyond that was not adversely altered. She's never lost her soul. She's had her human soul this entire time. It hasn't been an issue for her.

My guess is she made a deal with D'Hoffryn. Her own soul is on loan and when D'Hoffryn's done with her, she'll simply cease to exist when he swallows her soul.

[> [> [> [> Fascinating, but pure speculation -- Vickie, 16:59:18 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> You say that like it's a bad thing. Speculation is 80% of the fun! - NT -- ZachsMind, 17:30:05 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> Re: Why did Anya do it? (SPOILERS 7.2) -- meritaten, 20:33:33 10/02/02 Wed

I thought that Anya sounded surprised and ... pleased. To me, she seemed happy for him, but I'm not sure why she would be.

[> [> Re: Why did Anya do it? (SPOILERS 7.2) -- Malandanza, 10:55:24 10/03/02 Thu

"As additional evidence for this, when Anya was asking Spike how he got it (his soul) back, she sounded frantically imploring to me. It sounded to me as if she was asking Spike how he did it so she could do the same. "

I agree with the "frantically imploring". I see this as evidence that Anyanka doesn't have a soul and I also think it suggests that Anya was soulless during her time as a human. She is amazed that Spike has his soul -- as if it is something almost unheard of in her 1100+ years of existence. If having a soul was simply a consequence of being human, she shouldn't have been so astounded and should have instead asked Spike if he was human now.

I also agree with yez, further down the thread -- that vengeance demons aren't really about justice or vengeance, they're about using one person to hurt another. D'Hoffyrn and company want the worst possible outcome for all interested parties.

[> As the Worm Turns: Anya's Dilemma (SPOILERS 7.2) -- cjl, 12:19:01 10/02/02 Wed

You might have something there with the "cry for attention," theory, Thomas, but I got the impression from the way Anya was presenting herself throughout the episode--aggressive, powerful, badass VD--that she was desperately trying to climb back into D'Hoffryn's favor with a particularly cruel bait 'n' switch wish granting.

It's interesting that when the gang confronts Anya in the bar, she puts on her demon face and completely jettisons the empathy that made her such a beloved character in the S6 finale. In fact, she's acting exactly like Spike. Spike, caught between his human and his vampiric selves and tortured by the third entity swimming around in his brain, tries to act like the same old Big Bad--situation normal, all fanged up. Anya, too, is caught between her demonic and human selves and she's got her own pressures from outside forces. So she tries to act like the demon she was for 1000 years, coming down on the side with (what she thinks has) the most power.

But neither Spike nor Anya are very convincing. The minute Spike pierces Ronny's shoulder, the guilt of inflicting pain forces William back to surface and the facade crumbles. With Anya, Xander (after maybe two lines of dialogue) knocks the vengeance demon aside with ridiculous ease.

I addressed Anya's dilemma in detail in a thread below, but I'll repeat myself here: Anya thinks embracing demonhood gives her power, but with her conscience intact and D'Hoffryn putting her on notice, she actually has LESS power now than at any time during her four seasons on BtVS. I think she's grown enough to the point where she can be her own woman without Hallie, D'Hoffryn or Xander to guide her, but her options at this point are extremely limited.

I'm more than a little worried about my favorite cute brunette.

[> [> Re: The VD "bait and switch" (SPOILERS 7.2) -- yez, 13:48:19 10/02/02 Wed

First of all, liked the pun re: bait and worm. :)

Second, just wanted to note that the VD's particular brand of evilness, in my opinion, lies not so much in torturing the victims of vengeance, but in the whole "be careful what you ask for" kind of way.

Both Anyanka and Halfrek seem pretty consistently -- or at least not rarely -- to take much glee in fulfilling a scorned party's wish in a certain clever way that hurts everyone: Anya's Ronnie worm that goes after the girlfriend; Halie's trap house that also entombs Dawn; Anya's bizarro Sunnydale that promptly kills Cordy.

For all we know, the guy Anya turned French came back to seduce his girlfriend again with his accent and hurt her again...

I've never been able to quite figure out what VDs are about. They seem to genuinely see themselves as advocates for hurt parties, yet they actively trick people into making wishes, and they really don't seem at all bothered if the wish backfires on the wisher.

On the other hand, maybe that's why Anya reversed this one, because it was going to lead to the wishers death?

[> [> [> Re: The VD "bait and switch" (SPOILERS 7.2) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 09:54:18 10/03/02 Thu

Thanks, yez! I had forgotten how the fufillment of vengence demon wishes on past shows tended to have a "monkey's paw" boomerang quality to them but you are absolutely right. It could be that my first idea was off-base (partially if not completely) and Anya really was shooting for Vengence Demon of the Year status in D'Hoffryn's eyes by visiting a particularly nasty outcome on both Nancy and Ronnie. Of course, I also agree with some of the other posts that she is obviously conflicted with the VD gig and is wiggling with discomfort.

[> Something about Anya (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Buffyboy, 14:40:57 10/02/02 Wed

For over one thousand years Anya lived the life of a vengeance demon. She, like all good vengeance demons and better than most, pursued vengeance as an end in itself. To say that she explicitly pursued evil is, I believe, to completely misunderstand the life of a vengeance demon. Vengeance demons pursue what they believe to be justified. Much like the Gypsy Clan of season two, they believe that ìVengeance is a living thing.î For Anya, ìto maim and to mangleî those men who had wronged women was completely justified and if others were hurt or killed in the process, this could simply be chalked up to ìcollateral damage.î For vengeance demons, vengeance is a duty and much like the adherents of a fanatical political or religious ideology or the characters of Aeschylus' Oresteia. Consideration of the consequences of these acts of vengeance would be a dereliction of duty.

For three and one-half years Anya was a human being. She learned something of the complexity of human life, the moral ambiguities, and the difficult and times impossible choices human being have to make. She also learned, to some degree, to value human life. In the Gift she even felt a bit guilty that she was more worried about Xander's individual life than the fate of the world and the other human being living in it. But her real connections to human life came through Xander and she had no human friendships independent of him. When he rejected her and when all of his friends seemed to side with him, Anya had no one to whom to turn for help. At this point, the world of vengeance demons once again was reopened to her and she returned.

Yet Anya couldn't go home. She could only play at being a vengeance demon. She tried to manifest her old cleaver vengeance demon self by turning the man wished to frogdom into a Frenchman but only succeeded in gaining the scorn of the vengeance demon world for her all her cleverness. When Halfrek confronted her with the fact of this scorn and maliciously added that she was her only demon friend, Anya's situation became desperate. Anya looked deep into herself trying to find that hard-hearted vengeance demon of the past and at the next opportunity she turned the man wished to wormdon into a gigantic demon worm. Surely, she must have thought, this will satisfy the vengeance demon world that the old Anya was back. Yet, when the Scoobies confronted Anya with the consequences of her spell-- the dead puppy and the wronged woman herself having been put in danger by the demon worn, Anya balked at being a vengeance demon. For the consequences of her spell now mattered. Recall the Anya of The Wish where she cold not have cared less that the woman wronged, Cordelia, fell victim to the spell by being murdered in the Bizarro-World. For the Anya of The Wish developments such as this only made the vengeance spell all that more interesting and fun, just a manifestation of the life of vengeance that it was her duty of uphold and called not for rescinding the spell but for rejoicing. In Beneath You, though, such rejoicing was beneath her and she must have thought something like ìThe consequences of my spell aren't at all what I intended.î In that thought or something like it her newly rediscovered ìhard-heartedî vengeance demon self as well as the entire ethos of the vengeance demon world crumbled in her hands. With this development even Xander, of all people, was able to convince her to reverse the spell. Anya days as a vengeance demon seem to be numbered.

[> [> Was it just me... (spoilers 7.1) -- TRM, 18:17:46 10/02/02 Wed

It seems that all the posts I've seen on this board regarding...

ANYA: Well, what is this--an intervention? Shouldn't all my demon friends be here?
HALFREK: Sweetie... they are.

... implies that Hallie meant she was Anya's only demon friend. I had the impression that she meant many demons were in Sunnydale, since it followed directly after she said "Something's rising. Something older than the old ones, and everybody's tail is twitching."

Perhaps its just me though. I also found it slightly annoying that ME kept pushing the fact that something big is coming particularly in 7.2, since 7.1 had it pretty well established. There can be a little bit more subtlety in that department, JMHO.

[> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Just George, 23:00:02 10/02/02 Wed

Buffyboy: "For three and one-half years Anya was a human being. She learned something of the complexity of human life, the moral ambiguities, and the difficult and times impossible choices human being have to make. She also learned, to some degree, to value human life. In the Gift she even felt a bit guilty that she was more worried about Xander's individual life than the fate of the world and the other human being living in it. But her real connections to human life came through Xander and she had no human friendships independent of him. When he rejected her and when all of his friends seemed to side with him, Anya had no one to whom to turn for help. At this point, the world of vengeance demons once again was reopened to her and she returned."


I think I read the timeline a bit differently. Xander leaves Anya at the alter. Anya is left at the wedding with Buffy, Willow, Tara, and Dawn. Given the following B/W/D talk at the end of the episode (before Anya went to D'Hoffryn), the lady Scoobies all seem willing to provide whatever support Anya would accept:


Dawn: Should we do something for her? Anything?
Willow: She wants to be alone. That's what she wants.
Willow: Oh, god, it just hurts my heart to think of her.
Buffy: I know. The whole thing hurts my heart.
Dawn: I thought they were happy.
Buffy: They were. I know they were. They were supposed to be my light at the end of the tunnel. I guess they were a train.
Dawn: Why did this happen?
Willow: I don't know. I feel like I should be hating Xander. But I can't. sighs I just. . . I just hope he's okay.
Dawn: I wonder where he is.


I think human comfort was available to Anya if she wanted it. She went to D'Hoffryn instead. While Xander's act (leaving Anya at the alter) was despicable, Anya had plenty of other people ready and willing to help her. Becoming a demon was her choice, not her only option.

Becoming a Vengeance Demon again seemed to be a way for Anya to escape her feelings of powerlessness. From what we have seen so far, it seems to have backfired.

-JG

[> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- meritaten, 23:53:48 10/02/02 Wed

While I agree with you in principle, I don't think Anya perceived the situation that way. Her association with the Scoobies was due to her involvement with Xander. I don't think she recogized that she was part of the group without him. Yes, she said that she had had the comrades and the brides-maids, but did she really see them as her friends? She and Tara were always shown to be somewhat peripheral - even as they were accepted. When Anya tried to get her "comrades and brides-maids" to unwittingly say something to curse Xander, none of them would. To her, this would only confirm that their friendship with Xander would outweigh anything they felt for her. I don't think she is mature enought to realize that the Scoobies loved Xander despite his failings. She only saw that they loved him more than her. She was not mature enough to realize that their love could include both sides in such a hurtful situation.

[> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Mystery, 11:01:05 10/03/02 Thu

Also it didn't help that throughout most of her relationship with Xander, she was always treated as a barely tolerated annoyance. I think she was very much aware of it, too. Granted things were warming up around the time of the wedding, but she was still insecure with her place in the group (see they way she fidgetted after everyone stared at her for the Bunnies thing in OMWF?). She knows that everyone never took her seriously, and while she acted like she didn't, she probably saw every last eye roll they made at her. Then you add in the fact that she obviously remembers the way things went down with Cordelia (you know the traumatic event that made her human again). Cordelia was phased out, even though she was obviously the wronged party.

I really don't blame her for thinking she was going to be phased out.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Just George, 11:57:46 10/03/02 Thu

I'll agree that Anya was not taken fully into the bosom of the Scooby family. Anya was ecstatic when the Buffybot ask her about her money because for once someone was willing to open a conversation on her terms and not their own. It would have been polite for one of the Scoobies (besides Xander), to ask her how things were going at the shop. But I don't think it ever happened.

On the other hand, I never thought that Cordelia was pushed out of the group. Once she got stuck through the torso and split with Xander, she used every ounce of her venom to divide herself from the Scoobies.

-JG

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- meritaten, 16:37:34 10/03/02 Thu

You are right about Cordelia distancing herself, but would Anya see that? I don't think she would.

[> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Just George, 11:49:43 10/03/02 Thu

I agree that Anya didn't think the Scooby ladies were there for her. But I think that was her problem and not theirs. Anya became a demon before she polled the ladies about Xander. And even when she polled them, they were all willing to offer Anya any positive help might have she might have asked for. They just weren't willing to ill-wish Xander for her.

-JG

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- meritaten, 16:41:25 10/03/02 Thu

I basically agree with you. Although I don't think the Scoobies truly appreciated Anya, I think they wanted to be there for her.

What I'm trying to say is that Anya didn't see it that way. I'm not saying that that makes it A-OK for her to return to demonhood, but I'm trying to see her perspective. I don't think that she saw them as willing to stand by her. Xander and T'Hoffrin (no idea how to spell this, sorry) were the only beings that she had really ever felt were truly behind her. XAnder dumped her, and she sought comfort from her earlier father-figure, T'Hoffrin. In the state of mind she was in, I understand how she got herself into her current predicament.

We understand why Buffy made poor choices, why are we not being as understanding of Anya? I'm not condoning her actions, but I do think they are understandable.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Just George, 20:22:47 10/03/02 Thu

Actually, I'm not sure that Anya made a poor decision to become a demon again. Lets look at her history. Off the top of my head:

Over a thousand years ago, Anyanka was human for the first two decades or so of her life. This was when life was hard, brutish, and short. She ended up with a big lout of a boyfriend named Olaf. He cheated. She turned him into a troll with a spell. D'Hoffryn was so impressed with her rage that he offered her a job. Anyaka took the job and ran with it (becoming, according the Halfrek, "the single most hard core Vengeance Demon on the roster and everybody knew it").

And Anya seemed to really enjoy being a Vengeance Demon and the havoc she caused ("I had no idea her wish would be so exciting! Brave New World. I hope she likes it.") And if Anya was as good as Halfrek said, then the lower beings were probably happy as well. ("For a thousand years I wielded the powers of The Wish. I brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings. I was feared and worshipped across the mortal globe."). Also Vengeance Demons are very tough, Anyaka threw Giles around like a rag doll and Halfrek shrugged off a magic sword in the gut.

Then Anya lost her powers and became human. She tried to get her powers back, but D'Hoffryn turned her down ("Your powers were a gift of the lower beings. You have proved unworthy of them"). And as far as Anya was concerned, life went to hell. She started to age, got injured, and went from the top of the picking order to the bottom. The only things that ever seemed to make her happy were Xander, sex, and money. Before Hells Bells she had all three. After Hells Bells, she lost both Xander and sex. And as you said, she thought she'd lost her friends, the Scoobies, as well (she thought they left with Xander).

Then D'Hoffryn offered her a chance to become a Vengeance Demon again. Power, peers, and immortality. And none of the ugly vampire problems like drinking blood or poofing the in the sunlight. And once Anya became a Vengeance Demon money didn't matter anymore.

Anya's choice was to stay a human (powerless, humiliated, and friendless) or return to a life that had made her powerful, fulfilled, and sucessful for a thousand years. Sounds like a pretty easy decision to me.

My argument has never been that Anya didn't make a rational decision. It was that the Scoobies acted reasonably and offered her support. They did, but she didn't see it.

The problem with Anya's decision is that the last three years have changed her. It is hard on the conscience to act like a villain after hanging with heroes. Her instincts are wrong. Anya seems to no longer get pleasure when she brings "forth destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings." She can still do it, hence the worm demon, but she's doing it because she is supposed to (she's getting heat from Halfrek and D'Hoffryn) not because she enjoys it.

So Anya is going to have to make a choice between power and demon peers (Halfrek and D'Hoffryn) on one side and what she learned over the last three years and real friends (Xander, Buffy, Dawn, even Willow) on the other. It will be a hell of a ride either way.

-JG

[> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Miss Edith, 11:19:34 10/03/02 Thu

Most of the scoobies were not that nice to Anya I felt. It was more a case of them tolerating her becuase she was Xander's girlfriend. Tara was the only scoobie that did not join in with the eye-rolling and snickers at Anyas expense. E.g when Anya makes a comment in TR and looks to Xander for support but all he can manage to say is "you are attractive and have many good qualities" in a patrionising tone as if Anya is a child. It is Tara who gently says "It's completely not stupid to wonder where Buffy was".
Anya felt the scoobies would take Xander's side as they had known him the longest. In Entropy she comments that they all still love Xander, and therefore assumes they are taking his side and don't care for her pain. She is childlike in many repsects, and didn't hear the concern people were expressing for her, she simply heard the excuses they were making when she wanted one of them to inadvertently torture Xander.
What I found sad was that Anya was a genuinely compasionate person in the finale. Yet the scoobies were all so focused on saving Willow that they never seemed to bother with Anya. Giles took Willow to England believing she was still worth saving as she was a human with a soul. Anya is a demon so is she therefore not worthy of the same consideration? The only time she has been approached on-screen since becoming a demon is when people need something from her. Xander and Buffy wanting her to help them stop Willow in Villians, and in BY to undo a wish. They have not made the effort from what I ca see to try and rehabalitate Anya.
When Willow absorbed black magic there was horror and concern expressed, a need to save her from herself. When Anya become a demon again and Xander found out he looks at her as if he is disgusted. Buffy finds out and asks whether Anya will still help them "whose side are you on". No attempts to talk her round by making her see she is better than this. No one talking to her of the good nature they know she has inside and they still care for her(Xander's yellow crayon speech). No one reminding her of the good life has to offer and all she is throwing away (Buffy when Willow absorbed Racks power). In BY Spike feels free to punch Anya just because she is a demon and hitting demons doesn't really matter. The scoobies taught him well! And Xander has been so quick to punch Spike in the past, yet he doesn't step in when Spike punches Anya. He would have been horrified if Spike had punched human Anya. Buffy involves herself in the brawl when Spike becomes vamped. Buffy then feels free to punch him. I find that interesting and a little sad. Particularly as Xander's main advice to Anya in BY was get over it and stop making excuses. Was that the wording he used to Willow when she wanted to torture and main after she had her reason for living stripped away from her?

[> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Timeline (Spoilers for Lesson and Beneath You) -- Just George, 14:42:37 10/03/02 Thu

I'll give you that Anya was the bottom of the Scooby pack. But she partially kept herself there by refusing to earn how to socialize (From Triangle: Willow: "You been here forever, learn the rules" Anya: "The rules are stupid").

And while Anya was compassionate to Giles in the finale, the Scoobies didn't see it! Most of what they saw was her contempt for them in Entropy (after they were all trying to be nice). They did see her stay behind reading the anti-magic spell, and Buffy saw DarkWillow clobber her. I hope we see Buffy (or even Willow) thank her for that some day.

The Scoobies don't seem to have searched out Anya over the summer. I think Buffy and Dawn were letting Xander take the lead there. Anya and Xander were the ones with the relationship.

Spike punching Human Anya could have taken her head off (or made his explode). Spike punching Demon Anya is more like a conversation opener. Not polite, but more rude than deadly. Punching demons doesn't matter as much as punching humans because they are tougher and live in a more dog eat dog world. However, I would love to see Demon Anya kick Spike's ass for punching her.

Also the Scoobies didn't know about Anya's problems being a demon. They probably assumed that she has a new group of peers / friends.

Finally, why did Buffy show Anya a long dagger at the Bronze? Perhaps because Anya was engaged in heinous acts that would most probably lead to multiple deaths and mayhem. Buffy didn't brandish it at Anya. She laid the dagger on the table as a way of saying "this is business." Also Buffy jumped to her defense after Spike showed he was a threat.

Bottom line, Willow and Giles are away, they couldn't do anything with Anya. Buffy and Dawn let Xander take the lead. And Xander tired to talk to Anya, but she made it clear she doesn't want to talk to him. But now that the lines of communication are re-established, I expect new relationships to settle in quickly.

-JG

[> Re: Why did Anya do it? (SPOILERS 7.2) -- Barbara, 16:13:40 10/02/02 Wed

Weren't Anya's actions just a plot device to show some foreshadowing? That little dog looked like Toto, and Toto appears to be Dawn's nickname amongst Buffy fans. So what happens--lovers who can't be gotten rid of (Spike and Ronny)--are changed (both into half men half demons, if from opposite directions) by their girlfriend's (Buffy/Nancy) wills, wishes, actions--but they continue to follow the girls, get angry and then they steal the girlfriends' dogs (Rocky/Rocco?/Dawn) and take them down to hell/the hellmouth, where Buffy will be sure to follow like the good mom/mother goddess she is being made out to be. Persephone and Demeter. Toto and Dorothy. I think the devourer beneath will be Spike after he gets over the Jesus thing and reverts back to the Romantic ideal of Lucifer that we know and love. Dawn is re-birth, like Persephone, and might end up spending six months in hell every year (but I'm hoping that'll be Buffy). Whatever happens, Spike's spearing of the demon/man foretells his saving of himself, even if it means becoming fully a demon or fully a man again, or dying (which is the only time a soul would be good for something in his position).

Giles and Willow -- Sophist, 12:59:46 10/02/02 Wed

The discussion below is all about Spike (no surprise there), and that's fair enough given the episode. However, I think we're being told something about Willow also.

Did anyone else get the impression that Giles was treating Willow as a loaded weapon and pointing it (her) at the Hellmouth? For those with an historical bent, can't you see Giles putting Willow onto a sealed railroad car and buying her a one-way ticket to the Finland Station?

[> Thanks for spoiling! -- Veelana, 13:05:46 10/02/02 Wed

Thanks for not marking the spoiler apropriatrly.
I havent seen 7.2 yet and you told me something i wanted to see myselve.
(i realy tried to stay unspoiled)
Please mark them in the future.

Veelana

[> [> Humble and embarrassed apologies -- Sophist, 13:38:08 10/02/02 Wed

I had problems with the posting -- Voy crashed me twice -- and the third time was charmless. Given how often I've complained about spoilers, I am really sorry.

[> [> [> I never understand this line of thought... -- ZachsMind, 15:16:14 10/02/02 Wed

Please explain this to me. One goes into a public forum (both friends and strangers welcome) to discuss a television show which has new episodes broadcasting, and gets upset when reading the message board spoils things for them? I just can't wrap my mind around this concept of insisting others censor for the well-being of those who venture into public forums.

It's like on the tv series Friends when Ross doesn't wanna know the gender of his child-to-be, but everybody else in the circle of friends knows and all the sudden they have to be careful what they say around him which just stresses everybody out. He's going to find out anyway, sooner or later.

[caution spoilery.. highlight following text if you've already seen Season 7 Episode 2.]

Or when Anya figured out Spike had his soul back, so to shut her up before she blurted it out and told everybody, Spike punched her in the face. A lot of good THAT did, eh? And Buffy found out anyway.

[end spoiler warning]

I just never understand this attitude amongst people. Not wanting to be "spoiled" so insisting everyone else walk on eggshells around them in public forums. Seems entirely self-centered to me.

[> [> [> [> Re: I never understand this line of thought... -- Veelana, 15:56:19 10/02/02 Wed

Its easy,

some people get to see the eps a little later than others. I love to speculate about whats gonna happen and discuss episodes i have seen.

I dont mind rumors...
but reading discussions before i have seen the episode in question is not so great - especially when my download is almost complete and i get to whatch the episode in about 10 minutes (seen it now - great!!)

sorry for beeing rude,
Veelana

[> [> [> [> [> Two minor points -- Vickie, 16:56:21 10/02/02 Wed

First, Vee is technically correct about the spoiler policy. Masq has asked us to label current episode spoilers because not everyone (even in North America) sees the episodes on the same night of the week. It seems a simple courtesy, though we can all make mistakes as our well-intending Soph did above.

Second, it seems simple common sense to avoid the board or be very careful between the earliest time the episode airs and when one can see it, if it really matters. I know that I avoid the board like the plague between six in the evening my time (when east coasters are just sitting down for a nice discussion of what they've seen) and nine in the evening (when I've finally seen the episode, if I'm lucky). Even with spoiler warnings, it's hard not to catch some of the buzz with all the excitement.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly... -- shadowkat, 05:55:31 10/03/02 Thu

"it seems simple common sense to avoid the board or be very careful between the earliest time the episode airs and when one can see it, if it really matters. I know that I avoid the board like the plague between six in the evening my time (when east coasters are just sitting down for a nice discussion of what they've seen) and nine in the evening (when I've finally seen the episode, if I'm lucky). Even with spoiler warnings, it's hard not to catch some of the buzz with all the excitement."

While I work really really hard to label all spoilers - voy is a demon and it can make it difficult. I've had the same thing happen to me that Sophist did.

Also you have to realize there are people on the board that don't realize they are revealing spoilers - they read it in TV Guide or a Joss interview or saw a promo and forgot that was real spoiler. It is btw. We try hard. This is one fo the few boards that does btw. Others don't care and you will be spoiled. Also Masq is on vacation right now so can't patrol. Usually she does an amazing job of pointing out spoiler posts and deleting them.

My suggestion? Avoid the board the day the episode airs from 8pm Eastern Standard Time until you see it. People will post stuff out of excitement as they are watching or even immediately thereafter. I usually don't go online until the next morning after the airing of an episode.

[> [> [> [> That's why the Spoiler Trollop board was created....to keep the unspoiled safe from spoilers. -- Rufus, 16:48:19 10/02/02 Wed

This board is one where you have to clearly label your spoilers....I respect that and realize that every board has rules and this board is one where people may or may not want to be spoiled......of course the Trollop board is different.

[> [> [> [> Re: I never understand this line of thought... -- meritaten, 23:31:14 10/02/02 Wed

A significant portion of the people on this board don't want to be "spoiled". This season, I've decided to limit myself to speculative spoilers. It is disappointing when I learn something prematurely, esp. when the public board that I've gone to is one that operates with the policy of labeling spoilers. If I go to a spoiler board, well, duh, I have to expect to be spoiled. On this board, I expect to be able to make a choice, but still discuss the episodes I have seen.

As an analogy, many of my friends are vegetarians. I eat what I please, but if I bring food to a party where I know vegetarians are present, I make it clear if there are meat products in the dish. Or if there are Muslims present, I warn them if something contains alcohol. Just common courtesy. They have just as much right to refrain from ingesting these things as I have to chose to eat them.

As for the Friends epsiode you referred to, didn't Ross, as the father, have a right to wait and be surprised? It did slip out, but it was accidental and forgiven. People make mistakes. If Ross had held a grudge over it, that wouldn't be fair to his friends. But it wouldn't be right for them to insist that he know the sex of his child, spoiling what many consider a part of the experience, just because they wanted to know.

Hope this helps to clarify why I support and respect the choice to make this a board where spoilers are labeled.

[> [> [> [> Spoilers and discussions -- matching mole, 10:01:55 10/03/02 Thu

What I'm going to say isn't really that different from what was said above but I'm going to phrase it a little more abstractly.

There is a fundamental asymmetry between those who are interested in spoilers and those who wish to remain spoiler free. The spoiler free don't have any effect on the spoiled by their posts but the reverse is not true. If there were no public forums in which spoilers were not controlled in some way then those who wish to remain spoiler free (like myself) would have no place to discuss the show. How reasonable is that? No one is saying that you can't discuss spoilers anywhere. Not even saying that you can't discuss spoilers here. Just that you have to label them.

Having said that it is actually practically impossible, as several have mentioned above, to avoid being spoiled to a limited extent if you visit the board between the first airing of an episode and when you see it. Last year (thankfully no longer the case) I saw BtVS on Saturdays. Basically I couldn't read any posts between Tuesday night and Saturday night if I wanted to remain completely spoiler free. Even reading the post titles ends up being somewhat spoilery. I don't think there's anyway to avoid that. However I do think it behooves us to avoid releasing any more information than necessary without a warning.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers and discussions -- Slain, 10:27:44 10/03/02 Thu

Most people on the board want to remain spoiler free or to respect the rules of the forum, so somone not caring about these rules, and deliberately failing to label spoilers, is surely the person who's selfish. Selfishness is where one person puts their own interests above the majority of others, and the majority here like the board the way it is.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers and discussions -- Sophist, 10:30:30 10/03/02 Thu

Well said. I would add 2 points.

The spoiler free among us (and I'm one) come here in part because it's advertised as a safe haven. If it were a spoiler board, we wouldn't be here.

It's really a question of how many participants you want to have in the discussion. Spoiler boards lose the input of the spoiler free. They gain the freedom to discuss topics without worrying about titling their posts. Here, the only restriction is the subject line, and the return is the increased participation of many viewers. Seems like a fair trade to me.

[> Re: Giles and Willow -- dream of the consortium, 13:10:39 10/02/02 Wed

Sophist starts a thread about Willow? I'm terribly surprised. (One of those daughters doesn't happen to have red hair, does she?)

Yes, Giles is definitely sending Willow to the Hellmouth to face up to demons - and not just her personal ones. I don't think there is much commentary because we just haven't been given much to go on yet. We know: she is still powerful, she is learning to control/use that power, she will be significant in the upcoming months. Beyond that, we're just not sure. I tend to think that whatever this apocalypse-to-end-all-apocalyses will be, Giles is aware of it coming. Everyone else seems to be.

I hope/expect Willow is going to play a big part in Spike's story as well.

And I just have to add - AH is doing an amazing job maturing Willow, giving her a sense of sadness and grief but also strength that comes through in her whole body. It's great - and I can't wait to see how she plays out the rest of the season.

For those of us without an historical bent, could you explain your reference? (I hang my head in shame)

[> [> Lenin -- CW, 13:17:02 10/02/02 Wed

It happened in World War I. Finland station was in St. Petersburg, Russia.

[> [> [> Re: Lenin -- CW, 13:25:07 10/02/02 Wed

The Germans sent him as a politcal weapon from Switzerland to Russia where they hoped he would do what he did, stir up heaps of trouble. They didn't trust him enough to let him ride across Germany in anything, but a sealed railway car.

[> Spoilers for 7.2 in my post above -- Sophist, 13:45:57 10/02/02 Wed

[> I would like to have seen... -- ZachsMind, 15:05:39 10/02/02 Wed

Willow actually doing something. Giles actually training her. I know Willow was being trained by the coven of witches. How about a look at the actual coven? Nope. All we get to see is Anthony Stewart Head's backyard and his pet pony. Suh-weet to be sure, but hardly worthy of location shooting. If I were in England I'd do more than just contemplate my navel and conjure flowers.

And although I love Willow and who doesn't? What I really wanted to see was Giles getting back on that plane. The doofus.

[> Willow and Power (spoilers thru 7.2) -- Dochawk, 15:07:19 10/02/02 Wed

Soph,

No suprise that either of us are writing about Willow, I just didn't get the lack of use of England with her. The scenes were short, but powerful. I agree Giles seems to be sending a weapon, but why isn't he going himself, if there is such a need? And why are they so worried about the reactions from Xander and Buffy? Xander has already told her that he loves her no matter what and 5 weeks before Willow tried to whip Buffy's ass, Buffy tried to kill Willow (granted the power Willow used was self-sustained, but as Buffy later said to Spike about spillng their relationship, they didn't care). Dawn? And if Giles is telling Buffy and Xander that Willow should come home, I think there will be more trust there than she thinks. Dawn, well Dawn is another matter, that will take awhile.

My question is this: How much power does Willow have? Given whats presented here, her power dwarfs Buffy's. And that seems a little bothersome to me. (And Willow is my favorite character in Tara's absence). This is after all essentially Buffy's hero journey.

[> [> Re: Willow and Power (spoilers thru 7.2 and LOTR The Two Towers) -- pr10n, 15:32:55 10/02/02 Wed

But isn't there a clause in the hero's journey about the companion "dying" and coming back as a powerful guide? A la **IMPENDING SPOILER --> Gandalf the Grey coming back from the LOTR PtB as Kick-Buttier Gandalf the White? Still about Frodo and the Ring-Bearer saga, but whoo-hoo for the powerful friend's return!

When did Willow die? Ask her -- from GRAVE:

GILES Willow killed a human being, Buffy. How will she be able to live with herself?

WILLOW I wouldn't worry about that... Willow doesn't live here anymore. (Thanks be to Psyche.)

Cutee-patootee Willow from seasons 1-5 "died" in the S6 endgame. Whatever she comes back as, she's not the bookish geekish Willow of corderoy jumper fame.

With any luck she won't be a bore, with all that power and too much training. Better to me would be less power and less training, but hey there's a lot of season left. Maybe Buffy will need every jigawatt she can muster.

[> [> Re: Willow and Power (spoilers thru 7.2) -- Sophist, 17:32:49 10/02/02 Wed

I agree on all counts Doc. We don't know enough yet, but I have my suspicions/spec. I can't post much more right now because I just cut my hand badly with a kitchen knife. Kinda hard to type one-handed.

[> [> [> Ouch! Hope you're ok, but a silly thing like blood loss shouldn't keep you from posting -- ponygirl, 06:54:53 10/03/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> LOL -- Sophist, 10:34:40 10/03/02 Thu

I would say I'm in stitches over your post, but that would be cutting a little too close to home.

[> [> Re: Willow and Power (spoilers/spec thru 7.2) -- aliera, 18:25:00 10/02/02 Wed

Doc: I don't think Giles would be a substitute for Willow, not as she seems to have become and against what seems to be rising. And would seem more logical for him to have gone with her. I understand what you're saying about the potential for power but just can't see Joss having her overshadow Buffy, especially in what could be the last season. Does that seem to make sense to you? Reactions from Xander and Buffy? What she attempted was on a different level than Buffy in Normal Again and there's Warren. England...the only thing I pick up is scheduling, unless they've shot more material to use later (if so I've missed any spoilers on this; I'm not spoiler free but also not seeking) and I definitely agree, not much there right now to explain the shoot.

Sophist: I hope you're OK. Please post when you can and let us know.

[> [> [> Re: Willow and Power (spoilers/spec thru 7.2) -- Dochawk, 23:00:36 10/02/02 Wed

I meant Giles should be going with Willow, not instead of her. And Buffy made a point in 2 to Go about The not-so-gruesome twosome beign the line that Willow can't cross (and ya know Buffy forgives far too easily, Maladanza wrote a beautiful post about this a while back) so I don't think Warren will be that much of a problem.

And I agree with you, Willow shouldn't have more power than Buffy, Buffy is the hero, but given what we have seen, doesn't Willow? (actually in choices we see Willow able to dust a vamp with pencils, doesn't it seem that Willow would be more effective and far safer fighting vamps that way than Buffy and mano-de-vampo fighting?)

And Soph, I too hope all is fine with the hand (and hope its not the writing hand).

[> [> [> [> Re: Willow and Power (spoilers/spec thru 7.2) -- aliera, 05:21:41 10/03/02 Thu

Yes. But, I don't believe she will be more powerful than Buffy. Early days yet, Doc. Hang in there.

[> [> Re: Willow and Power (spoilers thru 7.2) -- Mystery, 10:04:41 10/03/02 Thu

Willow has been the most powerful Scooby for a long long time.

BUFFY: I need you, Will. You're my big gun.
WILLOW: (alarmed) I'm your - no, I-I was never a gun. Someone else should be the gun. I, I could be a, a cudgel. Or, or a pointy stick.
BUFFY: You're the strongest person here. You know that, right?
WILLOW: (frowns) Well ... no.
- The Gift quote courtesy of Psyche

It is still Buffy's Hero's Journey. Remember in the Hero's Journey there is always aid from one or more goddess figures. They give divine/supernatural aid to an earthly/physical hero, whether in the form of weapons or knowledge. Willow definately qualifies as a Goddess/Helper. Goddesses are always more powerful than heroes but it ultimately the Hero's own bravery and skill that wins the day.

the new Sunnydale High (spoilery) -- purplegrrl, 14:44:05 10/02/02 Wed

Perhaps someone else has brought this up and I just haven't seen it.

But does it strike anyone else as odd that here is a brand-spanking-new building that already has dripping pipes, rats, and junk in the basement?? Not to mention, of course, a few zombie-ghost people raising havoc and a newly souled vampire taking up residence. Okay, some of this I can chalk up to "atmosphere" and Spike needing a blood supply (shades of Homeless Angel). But I don't remember rats in the basement of the old Sunnydale High -- except in BBB when Buffy got turned into one.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[> More questions (spoilers abound) and foolish ramblings.... -- Sebastian, 15:16:13 10/02/02 Wed

When (re)watching the ep. last night - I thought it was odd as well. The basement seems rather decrepit for it to be underneath a 'New, State-of-the-Art Sunnydale High!' Most basements of modern facilities would never look like that - 'atmosphere' or no.

Also....I found it interesting....the few technological references made in 'Lessons' - which I wonder ties into the theme of the season.

The school being referred to as 'state-of-the-art' and the (at long last) appearance of cell phones in the Buffyverse just seemed to indicate something. The way the scene didnt seem purely transitional. It seemed to say something.

All these are instances of looking to the future. Which would be a nice dichotomy to some of the statments made. Consider Giles' speech about one always being one's 'true' self (not verbatim) no matter the changes one goes through, and the ShapeShifter's speech (via The Master's simulacrum) about going back to the beginning. Which, I interepreted as going back to the past.

The past of what? The Slayers? The murder of the Istanbul!Girl and RunLolaRun!Girl seems to indicate this possibility. The Hellmouth? The Hellmouth has not been referenced as a *major* (this excludes stand alone references such as 'The Zeppo' with the Sisterhood of Zhe and 'Doomed') sense of trouble since S1.

And Tortured!Spike. He now has to confront his past demons (the murders of countless innocents) before he can find peace.

So I'm wondering if the past has to be examined and dealt with before the future can *really* be looked at. S6 clearly was about dealing with one's present reality - but is S7 about dealing with the future? But in doing so, you have to confront the past?

Or maybe I'm just a dithering fanboy. You tell me. ;-)

- Sebastian

As in aside.....why do I have a sneaking suspicion Buffy's death in 'Prophecy Girl' may play a role? That line 'No - I feel strong. I feel *different*.' has ALWAYS bothered me. It was written by Joss of all people! I doubrt they would have forgotten something like that. Which would tie neatly into confronting the past.

[> [> The Basement -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:16:38 10/02/02 Wed

In "Lessons" Xander assured Buffy there were no secret passages or anything strange at the rebuilt high school. And yet there was a basement like a maze underneath. My guess is that this is the basement from the old high school. It wasn't really touched by the destruction reeked in Graduation Day, and so nothing was done with it. Given that the basement has been there untended for over three years can explain the decrepit look easily.

Opening Credit Sequence (spoilers for 7.1) -- Scroll, 15:12:23 10/02/02 Wed

Sarand wrote in the "Service the Girl" thread below (I hope you don't mind me quoting you, Sarand):

I thought that I noticed, in the opening credits, a shot of JM as William in an old-fashioned suit and it did not look like it was from FFL. Some of the other shots in the opening credits don't look like they are from previous episodes either.

Does anyone know if this shot of Spike in a suit is the one from "Tabula Rasa"?

Other credit shots:

Willow, her eyes opening big, white light surrounding her. Is this from "Becoming II" when she curses Angel?

The "Demons, Demons, Demons" computer screen I know is from a Season 1 Angel episode; what is it doing on Buffy?

The final shot off the Buffybot has been replaced by a shot of Morphy posing as Buffy. Does this mean anything?

SMG's name is followed by a shot of the mummy hand from "Life Serial". Is this a reference to Manus (Hand) from "Restless"? NB's credits is preceded by a demon eating the heart right out of somebody's chest (don't know the ep for this, is it new?). I didn't see anything that could be Spirit for Willow, unless that shot of her surrounded by white light was "spirit" (if it was her restoring Angel's soul). Giles isn't in the credits anymore, so no Mind.

Anybody else wanna weigh in?

[> Ohhh, I love being quoted! -- Sarand, 15:18:27 10/02/02 Wed

[> Re: [Reference to event in promos for 7.3]- Opening Credit Sequence (spoilers for 7.1) -- meritaten, 20:17:09 10/02/02 Wed

Does anyone know if this shot of Spike in a suit is the one from "Tabula Rasa"?

I'll have to watch the opening credits again, but I do remember seeing Spike in the suit from Tabula Rasa in there somewhere.

The "Demons, Demons, Demons" computer screen I know is from a Season 1 Angel episode; what is it doing on Buffy?

I noticed that too!

The final shot off the Buffybot has been replaced by a shot of Morphy posing as Buffy. Does this mean anything?

Did the use of the Buffybot last season mean anything?

SMG's name is followed by a shot of the mummy hand from "Life Serial". Is this a reference to Manus (Hand) from "Restless"? NB's credits is preceded by a demon eating the heart right out of somebody's chest (don't know the ep for this, is it new?). I didn't see anything that could be Spirit for Willow, unless that shot of her surrounded by white light was "spirit" (if it was her restoring Angel's soul). Giles isn't in the credits anymore, so no Mind.

Aagain, I have to watch the credits again, but the promos for next week remind me of the demon I think you are refering to. ...and the demon next week eats skin, not hearts.

[> I think I can help (Spoilers for next week's preview!) -- Isabel, 20:31:28 10/02/02 Wed

"Does anyone know if this shot of Spike in a suit is the one from "Tabula Rasa"?"

I played the credits on SLOW on my VCR. Yep, that's Randy, bowtie and everything.

"Willow, her eyes opening big, white light surrounding her. Is this from "Becoming II" when she curses Angel?"

I don't think so. When Willow was casting the spell in the hospital she got 'possessed' (for lack of a better word) and her head drooped from her shoulders as she incanted. When the spell took effect, she raised her head sharply and stared straight at the ceiling. My gut tells me that the shot is Willow in the bathroom casting the 'My Will be Done' spell in Something Blue. But, I could be wrong.

"The "Demons, Demons, Demons" computer screen I know is from a Season 1 Angel episode; what is it doing on Buffy?"

It's a misleading shot. The preview for next week shows Dawn looking at an Apple laptop computer in front of her and she's explaining to Xander and Buffy something about a new type of demon. I find it logical that Dawn might have found that web site on the Internet and she's using it to make herself useful to the gang. LA isn't a different universe so they could use the same web pages. So I predict that the screen shot of 'Demons, Demons, Demons' will come from next week's episode. Again, I could be wrong.

"The final shot off the Buffybot has been replaced by a shot of Morphy posing as Buffy. Does this mean anything?"

Probably. It was talked about last week. It should be in the archives. I guessing that'll make perfect sense at the end of the season, but now it could mean anything.

Mummy hand/Restless connection. Cool, didn't think of that. I just thought it was there for humor. I loved that scene last year. My favorite shot was the mummy hand with the salad tongs going after Buffy.

"NB's credits is preceded by a demon eating the heart right out of somebody's chest (don't know the ep for this, is it new?). "

We can see that demon in the previews for next week, so I'm guessing it is new. I have no clue if it has anything to do with Xander.

[> I love being quoted but . . . -- Sarand, 07:39:22 10/03/02 Thu

I hate being wrong. But I went back to look at the credits last night and it was Randy from Tabula Rasa. In my feeble defense, the suit looked black or dark to me and I remembered the suit from Tabula Rasa as being an ugly brown thing.

Oh, and just to get a conspiracy theory going. It looked to me that all the human characters in the opening credits had scenes from episodes not yet seen or from the two episodes already erred but neither Spike nor Anya did. Hmmm! Suspicious, no?

A New Theory on Season 7 and the Series (what do you think?) -- David Frisby, 17:00:07 10/02/02 Wed

My theory (although I could of course be very wrong) is that the robed killers at the beginning of episodes 1 and 2 are "The Brethren of Aurelius" from 1.5 (NKABOTFD) and the little boy from that episode that Spike (ada "Will-iam") later kills was NOT the annointed one, but that as the Master says (reading from big old book) -- "And there will be a time of crisis, of worlds hanging in the balance. And in this time shall come the Annointed, the Master's great warrior. And the Slayer will not know him, will not stop him, and he will lead her into Hell. Five will die, and from their ashes the Annointed shall rise. The Breathren of Aurelius shall greet him and usher him to his immortal destiny." -- the warrior (Spike aka Will-iam) will lead her to Hell, and out of the five who died (Warren, Glory, Adam, Mayor Wilkins, the Master) shall rise the Annointed (the first, evil). Thus, as the Master (aka morphy or the first) said "we are going back to the beginning (season 1)" and will tie up the series in a great way (given that it was a big bathetic joke of sorts when "the (supposed) annointed" (the little boy) was destroyed so easily and flippantly by Spike (therefore Josh fooled us, or will correct his move).

Are there others things known about the Brethren of Aurelius? I don't think the end of season one really says the "annointed" shall lead Buffy to her death? Just a little boy (I should check but won't at this time).

Well, what do you think (especially with regard to the "five [who] die" (Master, Mayor, Adam, Glory, Warren -- the ones who appear at the end of 7.1 and who are dead) and from whose ashes the Annointed (the first) rises?

Am I in left field or did I perhaps glimpse a true possibility?

David

[> Re: A New Theory on Season 7 and the Series (what do you think?) -- meritaten, 20:06:57 10/02/02 Wed

Interesting.....

[> Re: A New Theory on Season 7 and the Series (what do you think?) -- Wolfhowl3, 20:56:46 10/02/02 Wed

I was all set to say, "Hey, They showed 6 people at the end of 7.1, but then I remembered, 1 (Dru) was still alive.

It is a good theroy, we will have to see how it goes.

Wolfie

"Beneath You": the Super-Evil Review (if you don't expect spoilers, you're too dumb to live) -- Honorificus (The Dulcet-Voiced One), 17:44:24 10/02/02 Wed

Ye gods below. It just doesn't come much more depressing than this, does it? My simpering, Goody-Goody Alter Ego, HonorH, just loved this episode, wanted to have its baby, but she's not exactly emotionally stable, so let's get to the real meat of the matter:

Fashion Statements
The Good
Spike's looks--tortured, blue shirt (matches his eyes), no shirt--it's all good.

Principal Wood again. Not a single fashion misstep. Except the part where he's practically slavering over Buffy.

The girl Anya was talking to in the Bronze. The hair, the outfit--terribly put-together. I love a woman in red.

Dawn's blue shirt. Matches her eyes, even if I do hate the little twit.

Giles in general, just for showing up.

Anya's hair. A great improvement over last week, and the brunette suits her.

The Bad
Buffy's flowerdy shirt for the first day of her job. Did she rescue it from the stuff Willow left behind?

The rope necklaces both Buffy and Willow were sporting. Did ME's costume department hit a garage sale or something?

Anya! What was with that dress? It's like ME has decided that since Anya's archetype is the Avenging Crone, she's got to dress like a granny. It's an insult to demons everywhere. And Avenging Crones, for that matter (a damn fine band).

The Iffy
Xander drooling over Nancy. Becoming on most men, but it didn't quite suit him.

Plot in a Nutshell
A German girl gets killed, a Yorkie gets eaten, Spike tries sanity on for size, then decides he doesn't like it, and Buffy finds out about Spike's Shiny New Soul. And something about a big worm.

Highlights
The girl getting killed right off the top again. It just never gets old, y'know?

Nancy's Yorkie getting eaten. Useless little Emergency Backup Dogs like that should be demon food.

Spike and Anya's fistfight, segueing to Spike and Buffy's fistfight.

Spike going all evil and taunting Buffy in the Bronze. Oh, for the good old days!

Ronnie getting a pole through his chest. Always a good look for a human.

Spike hanging himself on the cross. You gets a soul, you takes the heat, fella.

Things I'll Grudgingly Admit Were Good
James Marsters' performance, beginning to end. I despise, utterly despise, Spike having a soul, but at least the actor's up to it.

Scary!Dawn. Like I said, I hate the twerp, but the threat had some flair. Burning beats staking any day.

The last scene. It would've been even more depressing if the writing, acting, and directing hadn't been so good.

The Lowlights
I'd say "The entire incredibly depressing episode," but that's unspecific. I'll just hit the worst spots.

Xander flirting with Nancy. Must we?

Willow being all Willow-y again. I've barely got any hope left for the girl. I hope the Scoobies toss her out on her skinny backside the second she's back in Sunnydale.

Anya allowing herself to be talked into undoing the wish--by Xander, of all people! He's a toad, and she's a wimp. Come on! You call this setting an example for the young ones, Anyanka? I'd hoped that with Halfrek setting a good example and confronting Anya about slacking off, she might have been getting over being human, but apparently not. The big slab of meat gets in one good potshot and she's undoing a perfectly good, destructive wish. I hope D'Hoffryn gives her what-for.

Spike's "I just want to be loved" speech. Tell it to Garbo, punk.

Overall Rating
Sixteen-fifths and one part purple on the Non Sequitur Scale, and I'm not changing my mind. Even a Yorkie getting eaten couldn't save this one.

(Disclaimer: The views expressed herein bear no resemblance to anything sane, let alone the opinions of HonorH, part-owner of the body Honorificus rents space in.)

[> Re: "Beneath You": the Super-Evil Review (if you don't expect spoilers, you're too dumb to live) -- Apophis (bad as I wanna be), 18:16:23 10/02/02 Wed

Honorificus (may the Old Ones smile on you), just one question: Principal Wood- How could a creature as depraved as yourself possibly approve of a vegetarian? Anyone who refuses to eat something that screamed when it died should be beneath your notice (begging forgiveness for my presumptiion, mistress of divine agony).

[> [> Re: "Beneath You": the Super-Evil Review (if you don't expect spoilers, you're too dumb to live) -- aliera, 18:29:27 10/02/02 Wed

Ahhh but was he telling the truth?

[> [> [> Precisely. -- Honorificus (Perfection Made Flesh), 21:38:38 10/02/02 Wed

If he's indeed evil, the vegetarian act is all part of his "Sensitive New Age Guy" coverup. All the better to seduce a Slayer on the rebound from a vampire.

Besides, vegetarians aren't necessarily non-killers. Skorzoid demons only eat alfalfa and soybeans, but they like squeezing humans just to see 'em pop. Fun!

[> Re: "Beneath You": the Super-Evil Review (if you don't expect spoilers, you're too dumb to live) -- MaeveRigan, 18:16:51 10/02/02 Wed

Honorificus, you are indeed the embodiment of eviltude, and I salute you.

Overwhelmed with admiration--no, make that envy.

[> Re: "Beneath You": the Super-Evil Review (if you don't expect spoilers, you're too dumb to live) -- Le Fey (the not so nice version of celticross), 18:17:07 10/02/02 Wed

Only a brief comment on your excellent review, oh Most Sparkling and Shimmery One. It's ever so nice to see with Anyanka's return to the fold, she's regained a respectably evil hair color. All those do gooder blondes make me ill! That's how I've always known that twit Spike wasn't as bad as he claimed to be.

[> [> *Sigh* All too true. Even Darla went the wrong way eventually. -- Honorificus (Her Divine Decadence), 19:05:44 10/02/02 Wed

And she was so very evil for so long. We won't even get into the *shudder* Harmony issue. Why, the only halfway-respectable blond was Glorificus. But even she took far too much time out of hunting the Key in order to whine.

[> Hahahaha!! You rock. (NT) -- Xaverri, 18:36:52 10/02/02 Wed

:)

[> Re: "Beneath You": the Super-Evil Review (if you don't expect spoilers, you're too dumb to live) -- aliera, 18:37:57 10/02/02 Wed

Evil...loved it. Your review of 'Lessons' had me laughing hysterically at 2am last night. Scared my dogs and most of the neighbors. So please keep 'em coming, your worshipfullness!

[> Hair is for Humans -- Medusa and her Snakes, 18:47:55 10/02/02 Wed

My snakes are issuing a cease and desist order on you, Most Skimpily Dress and Hirsute one, to stop discussing everyone's horrid hair. Everyone knows that the best vampires are bald (just ask the Master) and so are the best demons. Of course, the very best demons have snakes, which have long been associated with evil-doing, back to the dawn of those hairy little humans.

Otherwise, we very much enyoyed your little recap of the latest goings on in that Garden of Hell we call Sunnydale. I have great hopes for Xander's future dating, since it invariable lead to much suffering, especially for those observing him. And if you like, I have several excellent recepies, for Yorkie Pudding, Bichon Creme Frise, and Scotch Eggs-n-Terriers.

[> [> Oh, you would! -- Honorificus (The Perfectly-Coiffed One), 19:17:55 10/02/02 Wed

My snakes are issuing a cease and desist order on you, Most Skimpily Dress and Hirsute one, to stop discussing everyone's horrid hair.

Aww, poor little ophidians! Speaking of which, can I borrow a few? I need something to serve with the hummus when I get together with the Sisterhood of Jhe next week.

Everyone knows that the best vampires are bald (just ask the Master) and so are the best demons.

The Master was a pedantic, pretentious poseur who would've survived if he hadn't talked so much. And Prosepexa rather takes issue with the other half of your assertion.

Of course, the very best demons have snakes, which have long been associated with evil-doing, back to the dawn of those hairy little humans.

Well, darling, I keep a few snakes on hand myself (I've got the most darling little cobra curled up in my lap as I type), but when it comes to evil-doings, give me a good basilisk any day. I mean, if you're going to go the reptile route, do it with style.

Otherwise, we very much enyoyed your little recap of the latest goings on in that Garden of Hell we call Sunnydale. I have great hopes for Xander's future dating, since it invariable lead to much suffering, especially for those observing him.

Oh, indeed. I dearly hope he dates, as that will inevitably lead to him doing something truly stupid, and Anya will be called for retribution. Then it's fish or cut bait time for her, and I believe she'll do the wrong thing and truly become Anyanka again.

And if you like, I have several excellent recepies, for Yorkie Pudding, Bichon Creme Frise, and Scotch Eggs-n-Terriers.

Oh! Forget what I said about your snakes and hummus, dearest--I'd love that Bichon Creme Frise recipe. Do be a darling and email it, would you?

[> [> [> LMAO! My snakes are sacred, but you can have my admiration and Cooking For Demons book. -- Medusa , acolyte of Martha, Patron Demoness of Housewives, 19:28:00 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Such a sweetheart! -- Honorificus (The Multi-Talented, Super-Craftsy One), 20:57:49 10/02/02 Wed

I don't suppose you could make it to my book club next month? Pros will be there, of course, as will Morgana, the Furies, Walpurgis, and a couple of djinni. We're discussing Neil Gaiman's "American Gods." I *do* love that man very nearly as much as I love Giles! Everyone's bringing snacks. Pros is bringing her famous Cats in a Blanket, and you know you can't pass those up. Want me to email you the details?

[> [> [> [> [> Gaiman does write Avenging Crones very well :) -- Ete, 21:11:16 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Pot Lucks are delightfully depressing. -- Medusa, 21:13:55 10/02/02 Wed

Please ask Pros to use cotton blankets, as the polyester ones tend to melt in the oven, making the cats unpleasantly sticky. The book sounds wonderful-I do love how-to books. Tell me, can one order the alter supplies and sacrificial goats over the internet?

[> Oh, magmanHonorificus...I bow down to your most totally evil self! -- Rob, 19:26:18 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> That was supposed to be "magnaminous Honorificus"... -- Rob, 20:19:06 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> I thought it was magma, as in "oh, most volcanic one!" -- Victorinox, 20:21:02 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> *mutter* -- Honorificus (The Most Pulchritudinous One), 20:46:35 10/02/02 Wed

The toadying in this dimension isn't worth the pixels it's written on. *Sigh* What I have to put up with . . .

[> [> [> [> Do I not please you, O Mighty Honorificus? I remain your faithful hobbit. ;o) -- Rob, 21:03:19 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> Oh my god...another typo! That should be magnaNimous! Sheesh! -- Rob, 21:01:50 10/02/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> You're not too far off, Rob. Trust me--Her Splendidness can erupt with the best of them. -- The Unclean, 07:03:26 10/03/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Flatterer! -- Honorificus (Sweetness and Light), 07:35:36 10/03/02 Thu

You do say the cutest things!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Unclean gets a "you do say the cutest things" and I get nothing for bowing down at your feet?!? -- Rob, 09:47:59 10/03/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Walk away, Rob. Push Her Splendiferousness too much, and this won't end well... -- The Unclean, 10:00:56 10/03/02 Thu

[> Re: the Super-Evil Review of 7.2 (if you don't expect spoilers, you're too dumb to live) -- Victorinox, 19:53:37 10/02/02 Wed

Thank you, most adorableness! Always a pleasure to read your horrifical opinions.

And thank you for explaining Katana space to me last week! I do, of course, have another question if you will be so obliging.

Just what was the logic in the sequence where Xander meets Nancy? He's out what, walking? He runs into this woman and she's hurt and scared so he walks her over to the Summers' house? Or he walks back to his place and gets his car and drives her there? Because later at chez Summers he has his car to drive Nancy home.

It's enough to drive a respectable demon to drink. I believe I'll have another...

Spike, William, "Fool For Love," and "Beneath You": Spoilers for all concerned -- HonorH, 19:40:49 10/02/02 Wed

"Beneath You"--the title hearkens back two seasons to FFL, when Spike went over his history with Buffy. I saw more connections, though, particularly in JM's portrayal of Spike in this episode.

Spike, for lack of a better term, was all over the board in "Beneath You." When he was chasing/chatting with the rat near the beginning, he was pure William (albeit not precisely sane). The accent was softer, and he kept referring to manners and Polite Society. The quake rattled him out of that, however. For some reason, it gave him impetus to clear out of his hole, clean himself up, and seek out Buffy again.

When he does see Buffy, he's got the facade of Spike on once more. He's very much the creature we saw at the end of S5 and the beginning of S6. He's GoodSpike, Buffy's faithful helper. The disguise works well enough for Buffy to ask him to accompany her patrolling, but she's still rattled by his presence--and badly. Perhaps that's why his disguise starts to slip.

Or perhaps he just doesn't have the emotional control necessary. In any event, by the time we get to the Bronze to confront Anya, Spike can no longer be GoodSpike. He tries playing Buffy's Heavy, threatening Anya, but when she sees his soul, his control cracks. He reacts by overcompensating.

This is where FFL comes in. In William's first year as a vampire, he sought to divorce himself completely from his human persona. He changed his name. He sought out fights. He lived on the edge by challenging Angelus and looking for danger among humans. I couldn't help but be reminded of the scene in the mine shaft as Spike fights Anya and Buffy, and later, the demon. He's overcompensating for the soul. Whether it's to keep Buffy at bay or to keep himself from turning into Angel or if it was the demon's way of fighting back, he swings wildly into EvilSpike. His taunting of Buffy with the AR and their tryst in the balcony reminded me of nothing so much as "Harsh Light of Day," when he taunted her about Parker and Angel. Crude, lewd, and loutish.

The same behavior continues as he follows her to the worm demon. He swaggers in, telling Buffy to stand aside, she's obviously not up for this fight. Macho idiocy, the way he hasn't behaved for years, not since he was overcompensating for the chip by picking fights with demons in S4.

And then he breaks. I believe the chip is functioning. I believe that the pain from it slammed home the message that this was a human he just hurt, and he can't handle that--not with all the voices of his past victims screaming inside him.

So he goes to the church. He wants to find God, find penance. He sheds his shirt, calling it a disguise. He even tries to fall back on their sexual relationship--"Service the girl." Then, finally, he hides in the shadows and reveals his soul to Buffy. Because he wants to fit. He wants love. He wants forgiveness.

Spike is a very social demon. He always has been. He hung out with the Fangsome Foursome, he stayed with Dru for 120 years, and after he was left alone, he attached himself to the Scoobies and the Slayer. He was hurt at being locked out of the resurrection spell. But he never fit with her, much as he wanted to. When he was GoodSpike, he couldn't touch Buffy's body. When he was EvilSpike, he couldn't touch her soul. And now? He just wants everything to be okay, to be forgiven, to be at rest.

No wonder Buffy cried for him.

[> Brilliant analysis, Honor... -- Rob, 20:40:23 10/02/02 Wed

I totally agree with your interpretation of Spike in the episode, and I'm glad you posted it, especially considering the post farther down on the page that accuses the writers of character inconsistency in Spike, which, I think, totally misses the point. I was actually thinking of writing a similar essay to yours myself, but I'm glad ya got to it first. Now the time I would have spent writing (and not as well as you, I might add) I can now devote to not working on the paper due in three days that I haven't begun yet!

Again, really brilliant insights! Spike is without a doubt one of the most complex characters ever on television, and this little soul thing just made him all the more complicated and intriguing. I can't wait to find out what will become of him. Will he settle into normal William? Regular old chipped Spike, but with the guilt? Stay Crazy!William? The possibilities are endless.

I'd also, btw, like to add that I thought Spike punching Anya was a brilliant touch. Not only did it increase his moral ambiguity tenfold at the very least, but it perfectly showed that Spike is not Angel 2.0. Every vamp is different, and therefore, every souled vamp is different. Spike had thought that getting a soul would cure his problems, but it has only opened up a whole other can of worms (or worm demons, as the case may be ;o) ).

Rob

[> [> Spoilers for "Beneath You" in my above response. -- Rob, 20:41:28 10/02/02 Wed

[> Re: "Fool For Love," and "Beneath You": Spoilers for all concerned; speculation on other stuff -- JBone, 21:35:31 10/02/02 Wed

The whole "Beneath You" title immediately connected me to Spike in FFL. So the parallels you draw from the episodes makes total sense to me.

My problem has always been the Spike fanatics that demand that Spike get his rightful place with true love with Buffy. The Buffy and Angel forever freaks did the same thing, but Angel has another avenue to find his way now. I'm thinking that probably will be the same thing for Spike. His just due will not come from his relationship with Buffy, but from outside of it. I'm not sure how, but I'm usually surprised by the turns a season takes. And Buffy + Spike seems way too wicked obvious to me at this point.

[> [> My opinion? (spoilers and spec) -- HonorH, 21:42:14 10/02/02 Wed

No way in hell is Buffy going there again. The relationship was just too bad for both of them. Now that Spike's got a soul, he's got to learn how to be "human" again--how to deal with his soul and his vampire side, and how to interact with humans in a non-"bite or avoid" capacity. Buffy can't teach him that while being his lover. It didn't work with Angel, and it won't work with Spike. In many ways, he's now very much younger, a newborn emotionally. She may be able to light his path, now that she's found her own again, but romance is out. I'm ready to bank on it.

[> [> [> Re: My opinion? (spoilers and spec) -- Dochawk, 22:46:03 10/02/02 Wed

Something you said there struck me. "He's now very much younger, a newborn emotionally" Buffy may be able to light his path, but there is another character who has been there. Anya. When her pendant was smashed by Giles in The Wish, Anya was forced to be a human. She was also a 1000 year old teenager who had no experience with a human soul. And did you see her smile when she realized what Spike did. Was she jealous of him (not realizing his madness)? And complaining about her lack of friends (which she had before she became a vengeance demon). Anya is also struggling with what is right, with her demon nature. Its why she reversed the spell (this is a woman who was happily destroyed all of Sunnydale before). They are parallel struggles and we have yet to see the price Anya must pay for this act. I think that the fight of a demon for his/her humanity/soul is being played out on more than one stage.

[> Stop!!!Stop!!!!!!!...I'm getting dizzy.. ooooo and now I feel like crying too...<g>......;) -- Rufus, 00:34:56 10/03/02 Thu

[> Re: Spike, William, "Fool For Love," and "Beneath You": Spoilers for all concerned -- Silky, 07:28:17 10/03/02 Thu

Loved your comments, Honor.

What I am wondering is will Buffy now feel responsible for Spike, that is, will she take care of him, help him, protect him?

I still believe she cares for him at some level. Will Spike/William finally be accepted by the gang?

The First Slayers word's "you are full of love. Love, give, forgive..."etc. keep coming to my mind. I have thought for a long time they have to do with Spike. Remember what else happened in the episode those words were spoken...

Silky

[> [> The question is: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? (Longish....) -- Prophesy Girl, 08:06:49 10/03/02 Thu

Long-time lurker, first time poster - I love the stuff posted here!

Anyway, I think Silky brings up a good point that I've been wondering about since I watched the end of 7.02 (twice).

A good portion of us feel for Spike/William and sympathize with his attempt to get a soul to "fit" and the craziness he's going through now.

But while I was watching that last scene, I kept thinking that this was a pretty big burden to lay on Buffy. Should she responsible for helping to nurture Crazy!Spike back to sanity and deal with his soul? I'm not sure. She didn't ask him to do this and she didn't expect him to. He took his emotional pain / guilt and turned it back on her by getting a soul and now positing that it's her fault and implying it's her responsibility. Imagine in real-world relationships, if you broke-up with someone and wanted to move on with your life and he/she changed completely and came back and laid the guilt trip on you that he/she did this for you. Who would you sympathise with then?

I'm not condeming or condoning - and I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I do think it is an interesting one. All I know is that I can feel for both characters.

[> [> [> Welcome, Prophesy Girl! -- Scroll, 08:24:57 10/03/02 Thu

And don't worry about long posts, we enjoy epics here ;)

I have to agree with you about feeling for Buffy. Here she is, trying to live her life and build up her family, and in comes the ex she doesn't really want to deal with. While I don't see Spike as deliberately handing her a guilt-trip, I'm sure Buffy will be feeling the guilt anyway. Hopefully it will be proportionate, and not something that clouds her judgement. As you say, Spike went and got a soul all by himself, she really had nothing to do with that except to be his motivation. However, from the perspective of Buffy's growth as a person, I think she does need to deal with the past before she moves on (hopefully to that cute new principal!) with her life. Buffy isn't responsible for Spike's redemption (IMO) but she is responsible for how she behaves towards him, and for her own acts of compassion. I'm sure she'll live up to my expectations!

[> [> [> Re: The question is: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? (Longish....) -- Valkyrie, 10:30:22 10/03/02 Thu

While I concur that Buffy is not obligated to assist Spike simply because he gained a soul for himself, surely there are other grounds on which she owes him concern and compassion. If she really wants Spike out of her life so she can get on with her happy little life, she has the power to dispatch him, literally or figuratively. Instead, when Spike offered her his aid against the impending evil, she quickly accepted his help. Buffy and the Scoobies have in recent history used Spike as a soldier and protector without giving him respect or gratitude. Surely, if Buffy continues to employ Spike as her warrior, she owes him something, compassion and help at the very least, when he is in pain.

It also occurs to me that Beneath You parallels Afterlife. Spike perceived that Buffy was in pain and offered to do anything he could to help. Buffy is now faced with someone suffering a similar sense of despair, anguish and confusion. I will be very disappointed if she doesn't make the same offer a supposedly evil, soulless creature did.

[> [> [> [> Re: The question is: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? (Longish....) -- Freki, 11:27:21 10/03/02 Thu

Very well said. Spike chose on his own to get his soul back, and he alone is responsible for the consequences. If Buffy chooses to cut him completely out of her life, I wouldn't fault her for it. She did not ask him to get his soul back, and him doing so lays no obligation on her.

However, if she continues to accept his help when she needs it, then I think she does have an obligation to help him when he needs it. Taking his help and not reciprocating would make her a user again, and she doesn't have the excuse of being depressed any more.

[> [> [> Re: The question is: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? (Longish....) -- shadowkat, 12:28:47 10/03/02 Thu


Welcome to the board and good post.

I strongly disagree with this statement:"He took his emotional pain / guilt and turned it back on her by getting a soul and now positing that it's her fault and implying it's her responsibility."

I don't think Spike did that at all. I've watched the episode three times now and read three summaries of it. Nope sorry - at no point did Spike lay a guilt trip on Buffy or post it was her fault or imply it was her responsiblity. Any more than he does after she beats him up in Dead Things.

Spike didn't lay a guilt trip on her. Actually he attempted to avoid telling her about it, but she literally and figuratively drug it out of him.

Buffy follows Spike to the church. Buffy confronts him.
Buffy tells him to tell her what is going on with him.
He flees from her sight because he can't bear to do it as she is watching him. I don't think he blames her. If anything he appears to blame himself.

Spike is insane in the scene, struggling for sanity admist the voices in his head, struggling to tell Buffy what he did and why he did it. He did it because of his shame for what he did to her. He hated himself for that. And the only way he could be assured not to do it again - was to get a soul. Now he's wondering if it even matters.

Is Buffy responsible? Well, she spent most of last season beating him up and telling him he was an evil soulless thing, without a soul she could never trust him enough to love him, without a soul he could never be part of a group, without a soul....in just about every episode from Smashed through Seeing Red she or someone else seems to say this.
So yeah, I think it's possible Spike got the idea from Buffy. But no she didn't curse him with it like she did Angel, so Buffy may be directly responsible for Angel losing and regaining his soul. But she is merely indirectly responsible for Spike. That's why his choice is so amazing - he did it on his own. He chose it. No one is responsible but him and he does not hold her responsible for it, not really. Nor does he expect her to forgive him or even love him.

What is touching about the scene to me at least is the fact that I felt he longed for her forgiveness and love and to belong, but knew he would never be worthy of it and wished he could just rest, just be able to stop. Have you ever felt that way? Wanted to just stop. Just not have to go on?
Buffy felt like that in OMWF and in Afterlife. Of the two of them - I think Spike has the harder road. And the longer life. Can you imagine for one minute what it would be like to have the weight of a 100 years of evil acts on your conscience?? To hear all the voices of your victims?
To be set apart from demons and humans. To be alone.
And on top of all this to have an evil entity whispering in your ear that you should go to hell? It's overwhelming when I think on it.

Spike switches from persona to persona in this episode, hunting a custume or guise that will make it possible for him to fit in with the SG, to assuage his conscience, to deal. How many of us try the same? Put on clothes and makeup, try to fit what others expect? When she rejects one custum, he tries the next - and he is reliving each past attempt as he does so.

Is Buffy responsible for Spike? No. No one I think is saying he is. But she is responsible for HER actions concerning him and the consequences of those actions.
Look at it this way - were the owners of the dog that killed that girl in California, responsible? According to the news they beat this dog, raised it to kill - so it did.
Buffy beats up Spike. Engages in meaningless sex. Uses him.
And justifies it by saying he is not real, just a thing for months. Finally she realizes what she's done and breaks it off, apologizing for her action, but continues to treat him like a mistake. Asks for his help, pushes him away. Is she responsible for that? Is that why he is so tortured? Did she partially cause his nervous breakdown? It was an abusive relationship between two people - one had a soul and knew it, one did not. Yes, I think Buffy is accountable for her actions. I think she is responsible for leading Spike on and for some of what happened last year. But That does not mean i think she deserved to be hurt, or that she in any way deserved the AR. Nor did Spike, obviously. Spike believed what she deserved was a friend and possibly lover who wouldn't do that, who would be able to choose not to do that and have enough control not to. He chose to try and give her that.

People don't help one another just because they feel responsible. Some do but not all. And Buffy certainly doesn't. Nor is that what Spike would want. He doesn't want her pity or her guilt. He wants her compassion, maybe. He wants and yearns for her forgiveness. I think it is clear in the final scene that Spike wants her forgiveness
not her guilt, not her responsiblity. He doesn't blame her.
The audience might - but then it's so much easier to judge fictional characters we only see once a week than it is to judge someone we know.

I think we all have our blind spots due to our experience. We often judge people too harshly based on this. Some of us identify more with Spike, some more with Buffy. Some of us, myself included, struggle with Buffy because we see ourselves in her, projection much? So it's not as simple an identification process as you might think.

Welcome again to the board. And for the record...I don't know either.

[> [> [> [> Re: The question is: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? (Longish....) -- rabbit, 12:57:23 10/03/02 Thu

I agree with you completely. We don't even know if his mother loved him.. From all of the evidence we've seen, Spike is about the most isolated, unloved, and despised character who ever existed. In the real world, someone like this might either put a gun in his mouth and blow his brains out, or take the gun and walk into a high school and shoot his tormentors. I sure hope the latter scenerio doesn't happen with Spike. It's still a toss-up though to see what will happen.

[> [> [> [> No, but -- vh, 12:34:09 10/04/02 Fri

It is ultimately incumbent upon each of us to choose our own actions. Of course Buffy is not responsible for Spike's actions. However, others play a role in shaping our decisions. Those who are abused in childhood are more likely to become abusers. Must they become abusers? No, they can choose not to. Some us are very strong and will usually make our way no matter what obstacles are thrown before us. Others thrive when they get a little help and encouragement along the way. Still others may not do well no matter what encouragement they are given.

We bystanders should recognize that we have an affect on those we know. We can help or hinder our fellow human beings (or at least get out of their way). When Spike said he could change and Buffy, instead of asking him to show her, simply told him that he was an evil thing and could never change, was Buffy helping or hindering Spike? It depends on what point of view you take. Is the Buffyverse better off with Spike aiming to be good or evil? Did the relationship as it was help or disable the participants?

Buffy was simply stating her point of view. She really didn't believe that Spike had or could change--and I think she really didn't want him to. In her depressed state, she wanted him to be a thing that she could simply use without feeling any guilt about it. She couldn't handle worrying about much more than herself--and everyone else, her friends, Dawn, demanded that she do. Having a relationship with Spike allowed her to be selfish without worrying about the consequences precisely because he's an evil, soulless thing. (Plus she was drawn to the fire of passion that she was looking for and she knew he had for her.) When she started recovering, she began to question whether it really was OK, and shortly thereafter she cut things off. But the relationship haunted her as a continuing embarrassment. I think the relationship really worked out for Buffy, because she came out of her depression and she seems pretty fine right now. I'd say the jury's out on Spike, though.

(Hm. I think writing this made me realize a couple of things I hadn't thought of before.)

I personally like the character and have hopes for where they're taking him, but I'm happy to see the two apart. Last season was pretty excruciating. Depressed!Buffy lasted way too long.

[> [> [> Re: The question is: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? (Longish....) -- Jade, 15:27:23 10/03/02 Thu

I understand what you're saying here about Buffy not being responsible for Spike getting his soul back. But indirectly she was. I don't think Spike needed his soul back...it was proven in such episodes as Fool for Love, The Gift and Afterlife, that Spike does have humanity in him. The reason Buffy didn't feel right with Spike is because he was this "evil soulless thing" and everyone kept telling her this. And she told Spike this (as was shown in Entropy) and made him believe it. This is why he commited the unnamed act in Seeing Red, because he figured everyone was labelling as this evil thing so maybe they were right. When he felt the guilt for commiting that act he realized he didnt want to be evil anymore and that's what motivated him to get his soul back. So no she wasn't directly responsible Spike getting his soul back... but maybe if she hadn't treated him so badly, hurting him over and over again, leading him on, them dumping him, maybe if she hadn't done that, he wouldn't have felt the need to get his soul back. I dunno, I could be wrong...but everyone always picked on Spike, and i know he was evil and all, but he changed and was trying to be good, but no one even gave him a chance which is what I feel made mim resort to such extremes. Well I don't know if this rant makes any sense, but I thought I should address the other side of the argument.

[> [> [> An excellent question, and a nicely-balanced answer. -- HonorH, 19:25:48 10/03/02 Thu

Welcome, dearest. Excellent first post.

I didn't have time to read your full post, only the subject line, this morning, and came up with the following scenario while mulling it over: Girl meets Boy. They begin a relationship which is characterized by verbal, emotional, and physical abuse on both sides. Girl finally realizes just how wrong this relationship is and ends it in spite of Boy's insistence that he loves her. Girl moves on. Boy sinks into a funk. Is Girl now responsible for what Boy does?

In the generic scenario I posited, the answer is an absolute no. I can't see why it should be any different when you replace "Girl" and "Boy" with "Buffy" and "Spike." He did all this on his own. Buffy may feel responsible, but she's not the one who asked this of him. He did it imagining it was what she wanted.

[> [> [> Is Buffy responsible for Spike? ..........Yes -- Rufus, 21:52:58 10/03/02 Thu

But while I was watching that last scene, I kept thinking that this was a pretty big burden to lay on Buffy. Should she responsible for helping to nurture Crazy!Spike back to sanity and deal with his soul?

It is in Buffys nature to help someone who has asked for help.....Spike is asking for help....I don't see Buffy refusing. Remember what the quide said to Buffy about love...

BUFFY: (surprised) I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?

FIRST SLAYER: Only if you reject it. Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift.

Everytime Buffy takes a risk by not rejecting love she grows from it. Spike is many things and only one of them is the Big Bad....he now is much more complex than ever, to abandon him would be to reject love (not talking boyfriend love either). I think there is much more to gain from forgiving and helping Spike than there is by abandoning what he has become. She is risking a lot of pain, but for what reward?

[> [> [> [> Re: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? ..........No. -- HonorH, 23:05:01 10/03/02 Thu

But otherwise, I agree with you. Buffy isn't responsible for Spike; however, she is responsible for her own actions toward him. After watching them in the church, watching Buffy try to process all this, I believe she will try to help him. But there's only so much she can do. Spike, whether he likes it or not, is ultimately responsible for his own redemption, just as Angel is, and it's not going to be an easy road for him, no matter who walks beside him.

But I'm laying money that Buffy will try to help him. I just hope she knows where her limits are.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Is Buffy responsible for Spike? ..........No. -- Rufus, 23:46:58 10/03/02 Thu

I said yes because of the reasons stated, not my personal opinion.....Buffy is responsible for Spike because she will feel that way...so to her, yes....... she is responsible.

[> [> [> [> Beautifully put, Rufus--I completely agree. -- Dyna, 11:28:10 10/04/02 Fri

[> Spike's identity. -- Caroline, 07:29:20 10/03/02 Thu

I like you analysis here. Spike has come back post-soul scared, confused and mad. The old certainties are gone and he is trying to find out who he is. On his journey of discovery he tries on several of the old guises but none of them work. He can't be the big bad because he now has a conscience. He can't be William because that naivete and innocence is gone. He can't be chipped Spike who did good because he loved Buffy because he now has a moral compass that is independent of his love for Buffy. So in the end the pain and madness catch up with him and he desperately wishes to escape them all. The pain of getting a soul for her, and then feeling all the horrible consequences of his century of mayhem is enough to wish for his own destruction, particularly if the gambit doesn't work and Buffy does not come back to him. Hopefully the return of his soul will provide the same thing that unconditional love provided to darkWillow - a reminder of his humanity and the possibility to make moral choices to be the type of person he wishes to be, rather than be doomed to be Buffy's or love's bitch.

[> This Actually Works For Me -- Spike Lover, 10:03:07 10/03/02 Thu

I feel better already.

I disagree that he was "Falling back" to sex w/ Buffy in the church. I think this was the madness and the memories. Buffy usually came to him for sex. (She never came to him out of pity.) In his present insanity, that is what clicks at that second.

[> [> Re: This Actually Works For Me -- Freki, 11:04:27 10/03/02 Thu

I think he was falling back to sex, but not because it was what he wanted. He flinched away when Buffy reached out to touch his chest, and said "no touching", but then fell back into thinking that Buffy wanted to be serviced again. I was glad that they showed that he had also been hurt in the relationship.

[> [> [> Re: This Actually Works For Me -- Miss Edith, 13:51:03 10/03/02 Thu

Exactly. Before the episode aired there were a lot of rumours floating around the net that Spike tries to rape Buffy again in that scene as he chokes her, and unzips his trousers talking of making it hard. A lot of anti-Spike people were gleefully reporting that, but I knew there would be more to the scene. The point of it wasn't that Spike was horny and wanted sex. It was to show how Spike had been left feeling after his realationship with Buffy. Last year the focus was on Buffy's feelings so I am delighted that Spike's fellings are now being revealed.
He offers to service his lady like a common prostitute, sounding weary and lost. He finally begs Buffy to let them rest now. I think that tells us a great deal about how messed up Spike became at being treated like a sex slave. He thought it could be enough for him in ITW and in OMWF he directly tells Buffy he is her willing slave. Even in AYW he is willing to be used by Buffy, because the alternative is to stay in the darkness of his crypt forever.
It was pretty clear when Buffy returned that Spike was isolated from the other scoobies. In OAFA Buffy is shocked he would even consider attending her birthday party where her friends were. And in NA she treats him like a criminal in front of Buffy nad Xander, encouraging Xander to niggle Spike as her friends have always taken their cues on how to treat Spike from Buffy. E.g in Spiral Buffy states "He stays, end of story" and her friends follow that.
Of course Spike had already been made aware of how the scoobies felt about him. In Afterlife he is in tears as he confronts Xander "I worked beside you all summer" and lets a surprising amount of vunarability show. Buffy was his last human contact from what I could tell. No wonder he assures her he is not complaining if she continues to use him. He knows his alternative is to have nothing left in his life at all.

[> [> That's more or less what I was trying to say. -- HonorH, 19:54:18 10/03/02 Thu

He was trying to understand why she was there, and his automatic answer was that she wanted sex--that was the easiest thing for him to think right then. I just didn't express it very well.

Glad I made you feel better!

[> Connectedness and the Scooby Relationship Roundelay -- cjl, 11:55:35 10/03/02 Thu

I think Joss and ME have been showing the fans what they're intending to do with the relationships this year, and we're not paying attention. It's not about B/S or B/X or W/X or the relationship between Dawn and Spike...

It's about the connections that bind ALL the Scoobs.

By the end of S6, the Scooby Gang was shattered, and with the exception of a solid core of relationships (B/X/D and maybe W/X), we've entered S7 with the Gang still at loose ends: Willow's in England with Giles, worried if she'll ever be forgiven for her Darth Rosenberg phase; Anya is in a huge bind, seemingly trapped by her impulsive decision to rejoin D'Hoffryn's ranks; and Spike--well, you could write 50 posts to describe what's eating Spike.

As stated in another thread above, the first episode this year established the B/X/D triad; the second brought Spike out of the basement, and back into the Gang's immediate orbit; next week, Willow comes home and tries to find out where she fits in with the new order. And it's not going to stop there--in weeks to come, we're going to see Anya come to a decision about her future; since ASH is under contract for eight more eps, Giles will obviously feel the pull of events and run back to Sunnydale; Faith is going to come back to the 'Dale as well. (Who else is going to come home to join the party? Jonathan? Amy? Any bets, ladies and gents?)

I guess what I'm saying is, the connectedness in events around Sunnydale (everybody in our supernaturally endowed cast seems to sense it) applies to the relationships in the series as well. These are people who have had their differences, REAL differences, who have hurt each other terribly--and in some cases, who might actually be better off if they walked away from each other and never looked back. But they will discover they are bound to each other by the unfolding events, bound by duty, bound by compassion, bound by love, bound by the empathy each carries in his or her (or its) heart.

There will be rough spots. There will be recriminations and anger and even blood hatred. But ultimately, there will be forgiveness and love, because that's who these people are. If they weren't the case, I doubt we would be watching.

[> [> Casting spoilers for the remainder of the season above. -- Dyna, 12:13:11 10/03/02 Thu

[> [> Great thoughts, cjl. -- HonorH, 19:47:22 10/03/02 Thu

This is why I'm hoping Buffy doesn't get herself 'shipped this year romantically. I want to see all of the characters and how they interact, not take time out for Buffy's romantic life--you know how well that goes, and it generally eats up a lot of screentime. Show Anya feeling her oats. Show Xander wanting Anya. Show Dawn trying to come to terms with Spike. Show Willow trying to come to terms with herself. That's more exciting than the Buffy 'ship of the season. I always thought that her single gal status in most of S5 was a great fit for her.

Plot Speed and Re-establishing Community (Spoilers for 7.1 & 7.2, & speculation) -- Just George, 23:18:37 10/02/02 Wed

Everything in Season 7 is happening faster than in Season 6. Buffy keeps Spike a secret in 7.1. The secret is out in 7.2. Dawn gets new friends in 7.1. Her friends learn monsters are real and that Buffy fights them in the same episode. Spike's big secret (his soul) is revealed in 7.2. Willow is coming home in 7.3. Nothing is drawn out. Things are happening snap, crackle, pop.

I don't think we should try and infer the structure of the season from the first two episodes. The season's not going to be All.About.Dawn or All.About.Spike. I expect the next episodes is about setting up Willow's relationships in Sunnydale. If so, the episode in isolation might make it seem like the season's All.About.Willow, but it won't be. Structurally, the first couple of episodes are setting the scene for the push to the new story arc. To do that, the situations that were left at the end of Season 6 need to be cleaned up. Everyone's place in the community needs to be re-established. ME seems to be taking the first couple of episodes to do this.

From this POV, Lessons was all about setting up Dawn, her situation at the new school, her friends, her training, and her relationship with Buffy. Beneath Her was about bringing Spike and Anya's problems out into the open. Neither problem is solved, but both have been revealed. Now they can be dealt with.

Interestingly, we haven't had an episode that's All.About.Buffy. She's been there: setting up her new job, acting heroic, and reacting to the changes around her. She's the thread that holds everyone together. I expect an AAB episode as soon as everyone else is set.

I believe that ME is re-establishing the ìrulesî of the new situation. The audience needs to know the shape of the community: who is living where, where people meet, and what the basic relationships are. Once the community is established and reinforced, then it can be tested in the greater story arc of Season 7. ME hasn't got much time to do both (only 22 episodes) so they are ìmoving at a brisk paceî.

A part of establishing the community is making sure the audience understands what the character's think about each other. Here is my current speculation on ìwho thinks what about whomî (Those marked with a ì?î I am the least sure of):


What Buffy thinks when dealing with:
Willow: She was my Best Friend, now she's my Friend but I'm Wary?
Xander: He's my Big Brother
Dawn: She's my Sister / Daughter
Spike: I was Angry, now I feel Pity?
Anya: She was a Friend, now I'm Wary

What Willow thinks when dealing with:
Buffy: I feel Guilty
Xander: I feel Guilty
Dawn: I feel Guilty
Spike: He's Neutral
Anya: I'm Wary

What Xander thinks when dealing with:
Buffy: She's my Comrade / Leader
Willow: She's my Best Friend
Dawn: She's my Little Sister
Spike: He's the Enemy
Anya: I feel Guilty

What Dawn thinks when dealing with:
Buffy: She's my Older Sister / new Idol
Willow: She was my Guide, now I'm Wary?
Xander: He's my Older Brother
Spike: He was my Idol, now I'm Angry
Anya: She was an Annoyance, now I'm Wary

What Spike thinks when dealing with:
Buffy: She was my Obsession, now I'm Confused
Willow: She's Neutral
Xander: He's a Loser
Dawn: She was my Protectee, now I'm Confused
Anya: She was a Fellow Traveler, now I'm Angry

What Anya thinks when dealing with:
Buffy: She's Unfriendly
Willow: She's Unfriendly
Xander: He's the Source of All My Troubles
Dawn: She's a Kid
Spike: He was a Fellow Traveler, now I'm Angry


I'll bet others would fill this form out differently. Any suggestions?


-JG

[> Re: Plot Speed and Re-establishing Community (Spoilers for 7.1 & 7.2, & speculation) -- DEn, 07:46:34 10/03/02 Thu

For what it's worth, I agree with your take on the season's early eps as reestablishing and redefining the community. Nor is this process necessarily driven by the external exigencies of the story line. After the darkness and confusion of s6, it seems the Scoobies would be anxious to develop a working consensus on "where we've gone from there," and get on with the task of preserving the world, as opposed to the soap opera approach of endlessly discussing relationships.

[> [> Re: Plot Speed and Re-establishing Community (Spoilers for 7.1 & 7.2, & speculation) -- Just George, 11:20:08 10/03/02 Thu

I think you are right about the characters being "anxious to develop a working consensus on 'where we've gone from there,' and get on with the task of preserving the world." I had thought of the process as mostly plot based, but it could also come from the characters wishing to reestablish a stable pattern of relationships.

An example of your thesis might be when Dawn chastises Buffy about keeping Spike's appearance a secret. Dawn seems to be crying out for more openness. If everyone takes the hint (that secrets are more often bad than good) it could be better for everyone.

-JG

[> Re: Plot Speed and Re-establishing Community (Spoilers for 7.1 & 7.2, & speculation) -- DEn, 07:49:12 10/03/02 Thu

For what it's worth, I agree with your take on the season's early eps as reestablishing and redefining the community. Nor is this process necessarily driven by the external exigencies of the story line. After the darkness and confusion of s6, it seems the Scoobies would be anxious to develop a working consensus on "where we've gone from there," and get on with the task of preserving the world, as opposed to the soap opera approach of endlessly discussing relationships.

[> Excellent analysis/breakdown. -- OnM, 08:31:19 10/03/02 Thu

Actually, I don't think I'd fill out the 'form' any differently. From the info we currently have at hand, I think you've pretty much broken it down correctly.

The 're-establishing community' concpt makes a great deal of sense also. I too am expecting the next ep to be more Willow-centric, which will begin to put her own mini-arc into play for the early part of the season.

As a secondary benefit for newer viewers, this 're-establishment' offers the possibility to start watching the show with only a moderate instead of total sense of disconnection as a result of not being familiar with the history of the past 6 seasons.

[> [> Re: Excellent analysis/breakdown. -- Just George, 11:24:46 10/03/02 Thu

OnM: "As a secondary benefit for newer viewers, this 're-establishment' offers the possibility to start watching the show with only a moderate instead of total sense of disconnection as a result of not being familiar with the history of the past 6 seasons."


A good point! After one has been submerged into the show for many years, it is important to remember that many people are finding the show for the first time. I hope the info helps new viewers get up to speed quickly without giving them the wrong impression about the show.

-JG

[> A very long response... (a detailed plot breakdown of the entire series thus far) -- ZachsMind, 10:42:22 10/03/02 Thu

I concur with your analysis. It's interesting to note that up to the end of season four, the core four were Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles pretty much in that order of importance, although one could also argue that the other three were equally important in lifting and supporting Buffy. Today, the only two who are strong supporters of Buffy are Xander and Dawn. Everyone else has gone away, or proven themselves undependable.

When Dawn first appeared, she inadvertently became a catalyst that caused everything in Buffy's world to go unbalanced. Xander's been a rock, but Buffy suddenly went very maternal and over the past two years or so she shifted gears towards overprotecting her new sister. Sacrificing herself not just for the world but for her own flesh and blood, and even choosing to take a job at the DMP to support her sister, when Buffy's real job is to fight vampires.

Now one can observe the Buffy series in many ways, but from a logistical writing standpoint the breakdown isn't just by epiosode, but by season. One can break it down as I show below, but it's not that cut & dried every season. Some work more cohesively and separate but others depend a lot on what had gone on before.

SEASON ONE - HELLMOUTH & THE MASTER
SEASON TWO - DRU, SPIKE & ANGELES
SEASON THREE - FAITH & THE MAYOR
SEASON FOUR - ADAM & THE INITIATIVE
SEASON FIVE - GLORY
SEASON SIX - Warren? Dark Willow? Buffy's rebirth? Wha-nu?

Season one was the Master plotline, with a definite beginning, middle and end. The first episode of season two involved Buffy finding the skeleton of the Master and destroying it utterly, thus establishing for the viewing audience that the writers were not going to ignore the past year, but that the end was a definitive one. They weren't going back and they weren't going to ignore it. Though it's actually half the number of average episodes, season one stands pretty much alone.

Season two dealt with Spike, Dru and Angeles. That triangle caused all sorts of problems, and the dynamics between Buffy and Angel/es were the thrust of energy throughout that particular plot structure. Season three dealt with the rebirth of Angel at the start, but by the halfway point of the story, the thrust of it was The Mayor and Faith, culminating for the most part with the destruction of the school at graduation. Season two ended with the loss of Angel, but he returned near the start of season three. There was still unfinished business there, and though The Mayor was the thrust of the last half of season three, there were still other things left unfinished at the end of season two, causing it to be more dependent on season three. Seasons two & three depend upon one another for a cohesive whole to a storyline. However, the end of season three is most definitely an end. Not THE end. The Scoobies live on and continue, but the majority of problems they had were resolved when they graduated high school. The writers were kinda starting from scratch.

Season four upset everything, because without the school the writers had to practically start all over. However, they still had these characters. They just had to put them in a new environment. So season four is the college year, with the Initiative and Adam. It's also a self-contained season. Some could argue that it felt remarkably different from the previous three, almost as if it weren't even the same show, but the characters were familiar even if the environment wasn't. We still had the basic four from the previous seasons, and the supporting characters that revolve around them like satelites. Willow lost Oz but gained Tara. Giles dealt with finding his new place in Buffy's universe without his position as Watcher or Librarian. Xander dealt with life after highschool and life with no college, yet still hoping to maintain his relationship with friends who moved to college without him.

Angel and Spike were carryovers from the previous season as well, and there were purposefully things left open for both of them to be resolved. Angel moved on to tell his own tales in another series. Spike went through a sort of transformation. That season caused Spike to become a remarkably different component in the chemistry of the group, as he slowly became one of the good guys, albeit begrudgingly.

Season five stands on its own as well. Most of the season dealt with Glory, and it too stands pretty self-contained. However, as with all the previous seasons, the writers still had to establish early on how the characters interacted with one another now after the changes that occurred in the previous season. Spike battled with the desire to be with The Big Bad and the equally willful desire to be helpful to both Buffy and 'the little bit.' Willow had up until this point been like the sister that Buffy never had. However, now that Dawn was in the mix, Willow suddenly no longer had that disctinction, and had to find her new place. She wasn't Buffy's sidekick anymore, so who was she to be?

Season six is ultimately weird because there's no true Big Bad. Warren represents the Big Bad for that season, but he was not even really a catalyst for most of what was going on. What drove season six was Buffy. Her return from death, and also Willow's responsibility for that action and her growing sense of self-worth or lack thereof as she replaced the emptiness and uncertainty of her place in the world with her growing obsession over magic. All of season six is filled with uncertainty and change. There never was really a status quo for the writers to build upon, because everything lacked a foundation.

What we are witnessing with these first episodes of season seven is an attempt on the part of the writers to set up the status quo. All of season six was without a foundation. Now the writers are attempting to build a foundation upon what has gone on before. It's rough, and filled still with change.

So here's the real breakdown.

Season One stands on its own.
Seasons Two and Three are a sort of two-parter.
Season Four stands on its own
Season Five stands on its own
Season Six is unfinished business.

Like seasons two and three, season six will need season seven for it to stand on its own.

These first few episodes of the seventh season CAN be seen like the first act of a new play, using characters that each have a unique history as well as a communal history together from past stories told. It's standard practice from a writing standpoint to set up the status quo before upsetting things. However, at the same time one can argue that season seven is but a continuation of season six. That while previous seasons have seemed almost self-contained within themselves (especially seasons four and five) this one is not self-contained. It's a culmination of EVERYTHING and an attempt on the part of the writers to start tying up all the loose ends as best they can.

They're going back to the beginning. This has many meanings, but from a writer's standpoint it means returning to the original pivotal point that pushed the series in the first season. Buffy's real job. Fighting the good fight against the forces of evil. Only, with a twist. It's been established that 'good' and 'evil' are not cut and dried. As ATPoBtVS has pointed out with great detail, Buffy's universe is one filled with moral ambiguity. It's not just a matter of right and wrong. It's about who wields the weapon. Who controls the power. Who will be responsible and use the power of the universe to forge a fair and just world for everybody, and who will be irresponsible and abuse that power.

Eventually we will see what Buffy's true purpose for returning from the dead is. She and her friends have to fight the Hellmouth. They will have to shut it down once and for all. They have to insure that the control of the Earth is left in the hands of humanity, so that there will be a tomorrow, cuz if the forces of darkness upset the balance of power in THEIR favor, the game's over.

[> [> Re: A very long response... (a detailed plot breakdown of the entire series thus far) -- Just George, 11:38:45 10/03/02 Thu

I know what you mean about feeling like Season 6 was unfinished. The first couple of episodes in Season 7 seem more closely coupled to the end of Season 6 than any early season episodes since Anne & Dead Man's Party early in Season 3.

Interestingly, I don't remember that Season 2 felt unfinished the first time I watched it. However in retrospect, it was. Angel was sent to hell, but he wasn't dead. We didn't see the body. And Angel hadn't made his own choices about the future. Therefore Angel had to return before the story could be completed. At the end of Season 3, the Mayor was dead, the school was gone, and Angel had left of his own accord. It felt finished.

-JG

[> [> Re: A very long response... -- Slain, 12:35:43 10/03/02 Thu

I agree with your assessment of the seasons - Season 6 and Season 7 do seem to resemble Season 2 and 3. Certainly Season 2 was much darker than 3 - however I think Season 6 & 7 will be further polarized, as if they were almost opposites. The quick speed of narrative that Just George pointed to on a below post seems to me to be a sympton of the switch between the two modes.


I think the opening episodes of Season 3 were similar, though to a less extreme extent. In contrast, the tone of Season 4 to 5 was much the same - so, interestingly, you could say that when seasons are paired together, they tend to work as opposites, with a shift in tone during the early episodes. Whereas seasons which work independently have a smoother transition into the next seasons.

Or perhaps it's simply the case that darker plots tend to be less easily resolved. Often plotlines which are seen as dark (Angel/Angelus in Season 2, Buffy/Spike in Season 6) are based around the characters, in contrast with lighter plots, such as the big bad narratives. The darkness comes because bad things tend to happen to characters we sympathise with - which, inevitably, don't tend to resolve themselves easily.

[> Nice job (7.2 spoilers) -- matching mole, 11:22:34 10/03/02 Thu

The only character who I'm not sure you've nailed down is Anya. How Anya and Xander feel about one another seems pretty clear but how she feels about the others and how they feel about her is less so. Anya performed heroically for Buffy at the end of S6 and I doubt Buffy's forgotten that, although Anya is still a demon. So wary is a good word but I'd be inclined to replace it with uncertain. And how Willow is going to feel about Anya is anyone's guess. She's had a long-standing antipathy towards Anya but if she remembers the events of the end of S6 Willow has got to feel some guilt towards her as well. And perhaps gratitude. If it hadn't been for Anya, Willow would have even more blood on her hands.

Anya's behavior in the Bronze may not be a true indication of her feelings. She was feeling under pressure and was being rather abruptly accused (in front of a customer).

[> [> Re: Nice job (7.2 spoilers) -- Just George, 12:21:42 10/03/02 Thu

You are right that we don't know how Anya feels about people right now. It will be important to establish what her feelings are. After Beneath You, she might not even consider Xander the "Source of All My Troubles". He did convince her to reverse the spell.

Also I have no idea how Willow will feel (other than Guilty) about anyone. I think we can count on guilt. It would be interesting for Willow and Anya to develop a stronger relationship, but I suspect Willow's energies will be spent on rebuilding ties with Xander, Buffy, and Dawn.

One big question, will Willow hid her magic from the Scoobies?

-JG

[> [> Re: Anya's ostracism -- Dyna, 12:44:25 10/03/02 Thu

I'm actually a little confused about the other characters' stance toward Anya. Last season, from the non-wedding through the discovery that she'd gone back to being a demon, Buffy, Willow, and Dawn seemed to feel compassion for her. The revelation of her demon status came amid the chaos of the finale, so we didn't get to see much more reaction to it that Buffy and Xander's grim looks.

Anya did, however, show real humanity and feeling during the finale, helping to save lives, staving off Willow, and comforting Giles when she thought he was dying. When did she get ostracized from the gang? If it's because she's known to be casting vengeance spells, what about the months this summer when, it's clear from Halfrek's testimony, Anya was barely doing any, and didn't seem to have her heart in it? Was she simply being ignored then by all her former friends because she's now a demon? But what about her help against Willow? It's not that it's unrealistic that Anya would be separate from the others now, I just can't quite see how they got from there to here.

I thought Buffy's stance toward Anya in this episode was not so much wary as hostile, as evidenced by Buffy's placing the sword on the table in a threatening way when they approach Anya at the Bronze. It seemed odd to me, more in keeping with the way the gang has traditionally treated demons (generally hostile, with an expectation of needing to use violence) than I expected--especially ironic given Spike's position on their side of the table.

[> [> [> Excellent observation -- Scroll, 13:10:18 10/03/02 Thu

You bring up a very good point about Buffy's hostility. Yes, Buffy knows that Anya is the reason Ronnie is a big worm now, but the fact that her first instinct is to be hostile towards Anya shows that Buffy - at least at that moment - didn't see Anya as a person or friend, but as a demon. It's strange. Giles and Anya were very close during the finale; she could've teleported off to a safe dimension while the world got blown to bits, but she stayed for Giles. You'd think we would see some evidence of caring from Buffy, Dawn, and Xander (even if Giles is in England).

If we conclude that Buffy needs to figure out how to deal with Spike with a soul, I think it's only reasonable that she also learns to deal with Anya as a person, not just as a demon. I hope ME will address this soon because "Grave" proved to me that Anya is often terribly underappreciated.

[> Re: Plot Speed and Re-establishing Community (Spoilers for 7.1 & 7.2, & speculation) -- shadowkat, 11:40:41 10/03/02 Thu

Interesting take. While I agree that each episode is trying to show us where one character fits with the SG and their problems, they also show us at the same time several other important things or threads: we have the thematic thread, the threat or menace thread, and we have a little on the other characters and how they play into it.

I would not typify any of the episodes as ALL ABOUT a single character - if you think that, you aren't watching it carefully or maybe you should check your feed because you appear to be missing some key scenes. OFten the most important scenes in each episode are small ones about other characters.

Example: 7.1 Lessons deals mostly with Dawn and her intro to Sunnydale high - but the main pov? is still Buffy's and we get Buffy's reintro to a high school she hasn't been inside since Doomed, Season 4. We also get a bit on what is going on with Xander. A bit on Anya and how she's still friends with Hallie - in fact Hallie may be her only friend,
something on what is going with Willow and Giles and quite
a bit on Spike - as well as a bit on the new menace. Actually the least interesting and important part of Lessons was Dawn.

7.2 Beneath You (thought it was Beneath Me? Evil droids changed the title on me) was not ALL ABOUT SPIKE. Actually we had quite a bit on Xander in this episode and Anya and Buffy and a little on Willow. Dawn had the least time, but we didn't really need to know too much. of course a bit more on what the menace might be. And a ton on Spike (which we needed since he was the main plot twist/cliffhanger last year) - I for one was relieved they got to him as quickly as he did. It makes it easier for me to concentrate on other characters.

It's like a jigsaw puzzle with each piece slowly falling into place. You can't quite make out the picture yet...but the pieces are giving us more room to speculate.

What I find interesting about this jigsaw puzzel is how the pieces interact. Each particle of information interacts with the other particles. Or metanarrates on them.
Willow's segament comments on Spike's. Xander's with NAncy comments on Spike. Spike's with Buffy comments on Willow and to some degree Anya. How we deal with one person, may effect how we deal with others. How Buffy handles Spike - provides us with information on how Dawn may handle Willow or Buffy may handle Willow. The relationships on this show are incredibly complex just as the characters and thematic structure is. What each episode does is reveal another layer. There is no way they can go into large amounts of depth on all the characters in each episode. Only have 42 minutes. (Damn commercials). So they do a bit of what you stated in your post above : focus a little on each and a lot on a couple main ones - using the monster of the week as an additional metaphor. In Lessons - the monster was spirits of students who were neglected or unseen by Buffy while she was at school and she couldn't save - there were three of them just as there were three people she was trying to save: Dawn, Kitt and Carlos. Dawn's fears that her sister may neglect to save her were in a way represented by the monsters. In Beneath You - the monster of the week is a huge worm with teeth - this monster represents Spike's fears. (Remember ME has always used demons as metaphors to express its characters internal fears, part of the problem with last season is it tried to drop the metaphors - Joss learned his lesson and has reclaimed the metaphors again.) So if the manifest spirits rrepresent Dawn and her friends fears. Then the Sluggoth
Worm represents Spike's and like Dawn fights off the spirits, Spike is the one that tries to slay the Sluggoth.
Spike is afraid he is nothing but a demonic worm that pursues and attacks the object of his affection - that there is no good in him, so he tries to slay it and whammo, it is human and vulnerable and not a worm at all. In case you miss the reference to Spike - the woman's name is Nancy, (Spike was supposed to look like Sid Vicious when he first appeared in Sunnydale (I saw Billy Idol, but whatever) and Dru was Nancy...spike often calls people Nancyboy's probably also a reference to Sid Vicisious of the Sex Pistols, Spike's favorite band.) Next week the Monster will probably represent the fears of another Scooby.

Through the monster stand-in = we see how the other characters may or may not deal with him or her. Buffy argues with the manifest spirits, tells them they are going after the wrong sister and tries to talk sense to them. Xander wrestles with one and breaks the tailsman ending the spell and freeing Dawn and her friends. Spike tells Buffy what they are enabling the tailsman to be broken and they apparently mess with his head too. All of this gives us additional information on dawn and how Spike, Buffy and Xander are affected by her. And what their relationships with Dawn are.

In Beneath You - we see how Xander reacts to the worm and to Nancy and by extension Anya (he is afraid of it, he figures it's Ronnie's fault and he finally emphasizes both with Ronnie and with Nancy when she tells him about an ex ruining her life), Buffy fights it, then when it becomes human, wounded weak, and naked - she hunts a blanket, wraps it inside and calls an ambulance and focuses her attention on helping Ronnie, Anya reveals that the worm is human and it is Nancy who made the human a worm by wishing it - just as Anya tries to reveal that Spike now has a soul and is no longer completely a demon. See what you learn through the metaphors?? On top of that they show how the worm appears to be the menace from beneath, but it isn't. It's really not that bad, it's just a man who a demon used to torment others. A pawn. Is this what Spike is? Is the entity getting to Spike through the signal in his chip? Now I'm wandering off topic as I'm want to do. The worm also tells us a great deal about Xander and Anya and their relationship.

Now to your interesting set up. Before I try my guesses, I want to note, I agree with whomever it was who said lables are limiting. i think they are. These characters relationships are far too layered and complex to easily place into blanks on a chart. But i shall try, since I am bored at work and having nothing better to do at the moment.


What Buffy thinks when dealing with:
Willow: She was my Best Friend, now she's my Friend but I'm Wary? (Agree, but I think there's more: she was my best friend but she is capable of killing me and Dawn. Willow cannot be trusted. Also she's suffering. I love her. But
can I ever trust her around my sister again? And what if I have to kill her - can I do that? I didn't defeat her last year...I failed. Willow - to Buffy = potential failure. Buffy didn't defeat her, Buffy didn't stop her.)
Xander: He's my Big Brother (agree. And outside of Giles and my sister - the only person I can truly trust not to betray me. Xander always stands by me. My brother. My safe guard. I feel safe with Xander. He will help me no matter what. And forgive me no matter what.)
Dawn: She's my Sister / Daughter (She is the reason I'm still here. I will do anything for her. She is my life and my responsibility. I love her more than I love myself. If anything happened to Dawn??? She is more important to me than anything else. I died for her once, I would gladly do it again.)
Spike: I was Angry, now I feel Pity? (This one is truly tough. I'm not sure what Buffy feels for Spike, but I'm pretty darn certain is a heck of a lot more than pity. I don't cry for people I pity and I certainly don't run after them. Nor does Buffy. Buffy pitied Nancy. Buffy feels some pity for Anya. What Buffy feels for Spike is visceral. This is someone that last season she shared deep dark secrets with, someone she engaged in sexual escapades with, and someone she has a long standing and very complex relationship with. It is also the only person she knows who understood her and Angel (see Lover's Walk and Becoming and Pangs for references). What Buffy feels for Spike is combination of rage, remorse, regret, anger, affection, compassion, guilt, fear, pain, friendship and possibly and I truly don't know about this longing and maybe just a little love and hate mixed in. But I do know that they are strong emotions because otherwise Beneath You would not have been as moving...she looks completely stunned and is in tears. Also she would not have reacted the way she did in Entropy, Hells Bells, AYW or Dead Things - if her emotions towards Spike were as mild as anger and pity. Spike was actually a much closer friend to Buffy than Anya was. He was her patrolling partner for a while. Nor would Dawn be nearly as bitter towards him. Plus Buffy was planning on putting Dawn - the most precious thing in Buffy's life - in Spike's care in Villains. That says something as well. If her feelings weren't deep for this character - I don't think the AR would have hurt so much or affected either character quite as badly as it did. JMO. But so what's happening appears to be backing this up.)
Anya: She was a Friend, now I'm Wary (agree. Anya was never someone Buffy particularly liked, for same reasons Buffy didn't quite like Cordy. Blunt tactless direct. Anya was Xander's girlfriend. Buffy felt pity for Anya. And was friends with her, but not close friends. Actually I think Willow and Anya had bonded more. Anya and Buffy were also somewhat rivals - Anya knew Xander had a thing for Buffy and also competed a little with Buffy for Giles attention as we see in Grave. Buffy likes Anya. She feels sorry for Anya. And she is slightly wary of Anya. But not like she is of Willow. Or even Spike. Anya is not someone Buffy fears in anyway.)

What Willow thinks when dealing with:
Buffy: I feel Guilty (Have I lost Buffy? Will she ever forgive me? Can she forgive me? I threatened the most important person in her life. And I failed her. Plus I brought her back to life when she was happy dead then I threw it in her face? Am I stronger than Buffy? I envy Buffy. She could handle all this power, while I can't.
She's the slayer. Oh god, how could I have thought that. And that's just for starters..)
Xander: I feel Guilty (yep. Big time overwhelming guilt.
But also love. Xander will always stand by me. But why? I almost killed him. He thinks it's an addiction. That the power isn't me. That I was possessed. Like he had been as a hynena person. But it's more than that. How can Xander ever understand? Will he ever look at me the same way again?)
Dawn: I feel Guilty (She hates me now. I tried to kill her.
And Tara loved her so much. Will Dawny ever forgive me?
I care about Dawnie, she reminds me of myself. But how can I look at her and not think of Tara - of the family we had become, the three of us...before Buffy returned. How can I look at Dawn and not feel shame. How can I face her...)
Spike: He's Neutral (agree. Doubt she thinks about him at all)
Anya: I'm Wary (not sure what Willow thinks of Anya. Except possibly as an ally who might understand her. They bonded quite a bit. And both know all about vengeance. She probably feels a little guilty too b/c she used Anya. She's probably wary too.)

What Xander thinks when dealing with:
Buffy: She's my Comrade / Leader
Willow: She's my Best Friend
Dawn: She's my Little Sister
Spike: He's the Enemy
Anya: I feel Guilty

Running out of steam on this...but you get the idea.
And I should do some work.

Hope it made a lick of sense. SK

[> [> Reversible metaphors (spoilers through 7.2) -- Sophist, 12:26:30 10/03/02 Thu

As is the way with metaphors, I think those used in 7.2 can be interpreted differently.

In Lessons - the monster was spirits of students who were neglected or unseen by Buffy while she was at school and she couldn't save - there were three of them just as there were three people she was trying to save: Dawn, Kitt and Carlos. Dawn's fears that her sister may neglect to save her were in a way represented by the monsters. .... So if the manifest spirits rrepresent Dawn and her friends fears.

I saw these demons as Buffy's, not Dawn's. They represented Buffy's fears that she would be unable to protect her sister at Hellmouth High based on her guilt that she hadn't been able to protect some former students. Defeating those demons allowed Buffy to accept that she can, in fact, protect Dawn.

Then the Sluggoth Worm represents Spike's and like Dawn fights off the spirits, Spike is the one that tries to slay the Sluggoth.

Again, I saw the worm as representing Buffy's fears about Spike -- that he would stalk her and attack her. Spike instead attacked the demon (protecting Buffy), and revealed that the demon was just a man inside it all. Same lesson Buffy learned about Spike himself a few moments later.

In Beneath You - we see how Xander reacts to the worm and to Nancy and by extension Anya (he is afraid of it, he figures it's Ronnie's fault and he finally emphasizes both with Ronnie and with Nancy when she tells him about an ex ruining her life

I know I tend to be hard on Xander, but this line really got me. How on earth can he believe or suggest that Anya is ruining his life? Isn't it the other way around -- he ruined Anya's life. Now, he was right later on when he told her that she had to stop using that as an excuse, but if Xander really believes that Anya is somehow ruining his life, his character development has much farther to go than even I would have thought.

[> [> [> Re: Reversible metaphors (spoilers through 7.2) -- shadowkat, 12:39:35 10/03/02 Thu

Hmmm I agree, they probably are Buffy's fears first and the other character's second. Both episodes are mainly told through Buffy's pov and each episode was in part focusing on her relationships with these characters. 1. Buffy's relaitonship with Dawn and her fears regarding that. 2. Buffy's relationship with Spike and her fears regarding it.

That said, I do think that the metaphor can work for more than one character. And serve more than one purpose. Probably one of the reasons I love the show so much - the writers ability to do that.

Regarding Xander? I was confused by his reactions to Nancy's statements as well. How has Anya ruined Xander's life?? OR is Xander thinking of Spike at this point?
How Spike has ruined Buffy's life and how Spike is the psycho boyfriend?

No I think it is Anya mainly. He complains at the beginning of the episode about not dating and being lonely. And he accuses Anya of using the excuse of their non-marriage.
He probably blames Anya for losing Nancy...yet, he seems to actually be kind to her at the end of the episode, so maybe not.

I don't know Sophist. Will have to think about it some more.
Notice I stopped my rundown on Xander...;-)

I do however completely agree on the two points on Buffy.
She clearly feared Spike was a going to become a worm and attack her. And was as stunned as Nancy to discover a wounded man.

[> [> [> [> Re: Reversible metaphors (spoilers through 7.2) -- Sophist, 12:56:37 10/03/02 Thu

A very good point about Xander. Maybe he was thinking about Spike at that point. Sure seemed like he meant Anya, though.

I'm not saying that your original views were wrong. The great thing about metaphor is that it allows for multiple levels of interpretation. I was just adding in my own.

I did notice you gave less detail with Xander. I think there's a lot more to play out there.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Reversible metaphors (spoilers through 7.2) -- Rob, 13:47:35 10/03/02 Thu

The way I interpreted Xander's behavior, assuming that an "ex ruining someone's life" was referring to Anya, is that it is the combined frustration, and perhaps even feelings of betrayal, at her having returned to demonhood, and, of course, anger at her direct betrayal of him, with Spike in "Entropy."

Rob

[> [> Re: Plot Speed and Re-establishing Community (Spoilers for 7.1 & 7.2, & speculation) -- Just George, 13:54:55 10/03/02 Thu

Wow, lots to talk about.

My entire post was an exercise in massive oversimplification, from the All.About.X sections to the "one word" relationships. However, sometimes patterns become clearer when the subject is simplified.

No episode is All.About.Anything. ME is too smart for that. I thought the use of the Capitals.And.Periods would be a humorous way to poke a bit of fun at a tendency to focus on one theme to the exclusion of all else. Seems like it didn't work. My bad.

I agree that the small scenes are often the ones that demonstrate what the characters are really thinking. The line I remember most from Lessons is Buffy saying "I'm the one that dates dead guys, and no offence, but they were hotties." A throw off quip? Yes. But also a line that demonstrates Buffy's willingness to publicly acknowledge that she willingly had a relationship with Spike. That it was no-excuses Buffy not depressed Buffy that was with him. It was only one line, but it made me feel better about Buffy's recovery than anything else I saw in 7.1 or 7.2.

I had seen the spirits as metaphors for Dawn's fears, but I had missed the worm as a metaphor for Spike's. When I thought about the idea, I wondered if the long worm was a phallic metaphor and Spike's attack on it represented the castration of his personal image of his male power. But then I got squiggy and decided not to think about it. Some metaphors I like better than others.

Thanks for the run down on the metaphors, especially those for Beneath You. I am still internalizing the complexities of the episode. Many parts of it made me uncomfortable. Not for what they said directly. But for a direction I hope the season doesn't take. I don't want the season to be a long series of episodes about the Scoobies beating up on each other. Confrontations are necessary to clean up the unstable relationships left at the end of Season 6. I'm just hoping that they can be interesting but dealt with swiftly. I don't expect it. I'm just a bit gun shy from S6.

Agree totally about labels being limiting and that the relationships between the characters are more than just complex. However, I think it is important to establish a set of basic relationships in the minds of the audience so that the relationship can then be tested in dramatic fashion. Right now, as your stream of consciousness writing shows, the relationships are in flux, the character's full of doubts.

Doubts are good and fun to play with, but if all relationships are in flux, then there is nothing to build dramatic tension on. One place I think dramatic tension comes from is when a character has to make a decision. Part of the tension comes from the audience's fear that the character will make the wrong decision. For example, when Glory tortures Spike, we are afraid that he will spill the beans about Dawn. We know Spike loves Buffy and feels protective about Dawn. But, are his feelings for them greater than his feelings of self-preservation? We, as the audience, are pleased / relieved / amazed when they are and Spike holds out against painful torture. It demonstrates something important about how Spike's character has changed.

But Spike's sacrifice would not have been anywhere near as interesting if it weren't for the audience's knowledge of the feelings being tested. If Spike seemed to randomly feel love / hate / remorse / vengeance, then his reaction to any one choice would also feel random. He could do anything and it would be "within character." This is why I hope the major character relationships settle down quickly. Not so the relationships will seem simplistic or flat, but because when the basic relationships are established, the small niggling doubts that remain become the stuff that raise the dramatic tension when a specific choice must be made.

A simplistic speculative example. Say Buffy reclaims Willow as a friend, but retains a bit of doubt because she couldn't stop Dark Willow. Most of the time, we would expect Buffy to defend Willow and her choices to the hilt. But, if Willow showed off too much power, Buffy might not support her. The dramatic tension comes from the audience's knowledge of how things are supposed to work (Buffy supports Willow) and their fear of how they might not work (Buffy doesn't support Willow). Any real situation would be much more complex of course (is Willow making a good decision, does Buffy know all the facts, etc.) but we, the audience, have to know the basic emotional relationships in order to have them tested and in order for the writers to break them in dramatic ways.

BTW, I enjoyed your stream of consciousness writing a lot. Especially the "what the Buffy thinks about Spike" thread. There's is a VERY complex relationship, with deep feelings on both sides.

Thanks for the feedback. Good luck at work.

-JG