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Strange thoughts that occurred to me (shocked, aren't ya?) during 7.5--Spoilers to there of course -- Off-kilter, rambling but loving season 7, 10:00:05 10/23/02 Wed

Thanks to the PTB and file sharing, I was able to actually watch the same time as everyone else this week. I will be forever grateful to mIRC and agent156 for the means and the method. Also Buffybot[XDCC]-20 for the file.

Even though I've only read about half the board's reaction, I'm posting this before I think too much about it. If I wait (as I normally do) to see if others have brought up these points or spend too much time polishing, it will never get posted (as it normally isn't). Hope you guys get something out of it; a little amusement if nothing else!

My reaction as the credits rolled. "Wow, history! Wow, history! Wow, more history!" Then "Wow. Wow. Wow." and [sniffle, blink rapidly, sniffle].

This episode will rank with Restless for the amount of scrutiny it will undergo as we obsessed fans rip, shred, sniff, poke, pull apart, examine and expound upon this episode from so many angles that we'll get dizzy from vertigo.

Some movie parallels that struck me (but no one else evidently) were from An Officer and a Gentleman (AOaaG) and Return of the Jedi (RotJ). I know, I know. "O-K, are you feeling all right?" Just bear with me for a sec.

AoaaG first. When Spike almost whispers, "I don't have anywhere else to go," an audio of Richard Gere's broken shout of "I don't got no place else to go!" to his Drill Instructor echoed in my ears. Similar situation? Sly, cocky, rebellious never-do-well with a chip on his shoulder (and head! *snerk *) trying to do good for the wrong reasons-Spike to woo Buffy, Gere (forgot his character's name) to advance his status/be better than his father. Getting to the breaking point with the admission that he's reached bottom and rebuilding himself from there. Even the DI was similar to Buffy's role. The DI kept on Gere and leveled insults/sarcasm while keeping the pressure on him to "prove himself" while radiating the belief that Gere would fail. After almost failing (and even adamantly giving up at one point), Gere triumphs to become a better person AND achieve his goal. Graduating from Officer Candidate School meant something totally different to him by the end of the movie. Will Spike triumph similarly and with a similar change of paradigm? Can't wait to find out!

RotJ. This was also a scene-centric feeling. When Buffy walks down to meet Anya and she's dressed severely in black with the high-necked long-sleeved jacket, her hair is blonde and sweeps across her forehead but tucked up, she's brandishing a long sword (light saber) and has a determined and "doing my duty" look upon her face. This reminded me forcefully of Luke Skywalker as he confronts his father, DarthVader. Although Anya is nothing like a father figure to Buffy, Anya is "lost" to the dark side. Buffy has distanced herself from her feelings toward Anya as Luke had to. Anya and DarthVader mock Buffy/Luke but in the end offer themselves as sacrifice to fix the balance towards the side of good. Anya's motivations are a bit different than Darth's and she doesn't die, of course but the offer redeems her as it does him. Or at least shoves her in the right direction. Not a step-by-step parallel but enough to flavor my interpretation of the scene.

Where's Ded to comment when I need him?

LittleBit (and Rah, I see) came up with an interesting spin on the title, "Selfless". Seems Anya thinks she's a nobody with out vengeance or being somebody's "Mrs". She, like so many of us, defines herself in terms of her job/calling and her relationships to other people. What are we if not the doctor, waitress, entomologist, plumber, mother, co-worker, husband, child, Slayer, butt-monkey? Is it possible to understand "you" without using the reference of "others"? The very sharp chat group that gathered post Selfless viewing also pointed out that all the Scoobies, ex-Scoobies, and even Buffy are lacking a bit--or think that they lack--a foundation of "self" without these roles. No real point here, just things that made me go, "huh".

Willow with her dark-eyed power trip was almost more chilling than the spider. The growling irritation whilst black-eyed just served to reinforce STSP's message that she wasn't all "finished with being evil" as Dawn puts it. You can never destroy your dark side; you can only hope to control it. Willow's just closer to the edge and more powerful than most.

I am glad that she not only used magic automatically to save herself (and girl) but also that the writers didn't feel it necessary for her to freak that she DID use magic. As Joss and company has retconned (sp?) from last season, it's not the magic that was the problem, it was Willow.

Can anyone explain why Anya turned against bunnies?

Hahah! Heehee! (to the funny farm we go . . . ) moments that stuck in my head:
"boned a troll"
"Anya lame-ass-made-up-maiden-name Harris"
"Ripped their hearts out? Did you get that Physics class you wanted?"
Willow in search of the elusive syllabi
D'Hoffryn halting his Demon-of-Vast-Importance Spiel when he sees Willow
"or we can do that" Xander regarding his moot plan against spider
Vengance "Only those that deserve it" "They all deserve it" "I was getting to that"

Oh, and finally:

"I am Aud" Of course you are, my dear. And we love you for it.
[> Paging Dedalus to look at and comment on Star War's reference in above post. -- Off-kilter, hopeful, 10:04:05 10/23/02 Wed

[> Oh, thank you! -- Sarand, 12:24:11 10/23/02 Wed

The same audio went off in my head but I couldn't place the reference. Thanks! Another interesting analogy between Spike and the Richard Gere character in AOaaG (or maybe this is what you meant by his "becoming a better person") is his willingness to help others in the end. In the beginning, Gere's character was only in it for himself and he would only help his fellow officer candidates when there was something in it for him (like money for polished shoes and belt buckles). Part of what he needed to learn was how much he had to be part of the team or unit and that required selflessly helping his fellows when needed. Like encouraging the female candidate to get through the obstacle course so that she could pass candidate training school even though it meant Gere's character had to give up getting the record for the best time through the course. (No, really, I haven't seen the movie that many times. Hehe).
[> [> That's exactly what I meant about "becoming a better person" -- Off-kilter, 13:00:52 10/23/02 Wed

[> Re: Strange thoughts that occurred to me -- Dedalus, 12:31:36 10/23/02 Wed

I honestly never would have thought about that. The real parallel for me was always in Darth Willow, particularly in Xander's uncompromising love for her. It was this close personal, even almost familial given Joss' take on the Scoobies as Buffy's family, tie that sold me on that at the end of Grave. Willow and Anakin also each come to the dark side from the exact same vantage point - to "fix" the world. As I pointed out in my last essay, Willow fixes the Buffybot, then Buffy herself, then Tara, then Warren, and almost the world, with her magic. Anakin will no doubt attempt the same route in Episode Three when things fall apart. And just as he said after he lost his mom in AOTC, "Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things." It's regarding nature as a machine rather than an organism, although Willow seems to now be going in the opposite direction this season, what with her waxing poetic about "roots" and so on. But Xander had no intention of killing Will any more than Luke did his father.

As for Selfless and Buffy and Luke, Buffy went out with a do my duty look, indeed, very implacable. Luke however, wore his heart on his sleeve the whole time in ROTJ. It was not about doing his duty. As he told the ghost of Ben, "I can't kill my own father." This was strictly about getting Anakin back for him. He wouldn't kill him - he would rather have died himself. And I think that was his failsafe plan - if Vader couldn't be turned, they would all be killed when the Death Star blew up. And again, Buffy and Anya aren't really that close. The sacrifice of Anya's was somewhat Vader like, but she didn't die. Maybe that was worse, as d'Hoffryn suggested. It really shocked me the way it ended. I didn't see that coming. But you can only push it so far, mesa tinks.

Now, if the episode had ended with a bunch of furry Ewok-demons dancing out in the streets of Sunnydale, then you would have something.

:-P
[> [> Sunnydayle invaded by Ewok-demons dancing in the streets? LOL -- Drizzt, 13:11:20 10/23/02 Wed

An English major's wet dream - spoilers up to 7.5 (warning - poetry within) -- Caroline, 10:02:33 10/23/02 Wed

Season 7 has been an English major's wet dream. ME has filled the episodes with so many literary allusions that seem to fit the themes of the episode and the season so well. And they work at so many levels.

1. Spike: 'Button, button, who's got the button?' (STSP I think?)

I think this comes from Robert Frost's The Witch of Coos - see the following lines.

"Folks think a witch who has familiar spirits
She could call up to pass a winter evening,
But won't, should be burned at the stake or something.
Summoning spirits isn't 'Button, button,
Who's got the button,' I would have them know."

And further along in the poem:

"He said the dead had souls, but when I asked him
How could that be -- I thought the dead were souls,
He broke my trance. Don't that make you suspicious
That there's something the dead are keeping back?
Yes, there's something the dead are keeping back."

The poem is about a woman killing something that ascended from the basement and it's dead bones are now imprisoned in the attic. She keeps this dead person at bay every night - her bed is against the attic door.

Is Buffy trying to do this with Spike? He is a dead person with a soul, not a dead person who is a soul. He keeps coming up from below. Is that Buffy's own darkness coming up from below? Spike symbolized her darkness metaphorically and Buffy's current treatment of Spike is indicative of her effort to suppress a part of herself that she finds unacceptable. Could 'from beneath you is devours' refer metaphorically to the unmet darkness in Buffy that will rise up (okay, I'm so hoping Buffy becomes the villain this season). We know from what Cassie said that Buffy will go underground and that she will make a difference, so there goes my hope of badBuffy. But I think that the metaphor of this monster will be the collective and individual darkness within the Scooby gang. Also, in the poem the dead are keeping something back. Does this refer to Spike? What is he keeping back?

2. We've also got the reference to Slaughterhouse 5 (Help) - based on the fire-bombing of Dresden by Vonnegut. I've already done a post on this, but suffice to say that this book is about being 'unstuck from time'. The protagonist drifts from different times and places. At the same time, he is trapped in a fate he cannot change, he can only change the way he deals with his fate. This could describe Spike's fate in the basement, it could describe Buffy's destiny as a slayer and how if affects her actions in the present. It could also describe Anya's current state. It could also describe the different realities that Spike is in - Billy Pilgrim sometimes did not see things as they were but how he wished - witness Spike and FakeBuffy in Selfless. None of them (the SG), when confronted with a fate, have dealt with it in the humane way Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse 5 and Cassie in Help deal with their fates. In a way, Billy Pilgrim is an innocent fool - like Percival (notice the teacher's name in Lessons is Lonegrin - son of Percival, the grail knight). This is another parallel to Spike, the fool and the trickster.

3. Montresor from the Cask of Amontillado by Edgar Allen Poe (Selfless)

Spike says to Buffy in Selfless that she can scream Montresor all you want. He is referring to Fortunato, who, while dressed as a fool (aha!) for a celebration was led by Montresor to a crypt, tied to a wall and buried alive. Fortunato screams out Montresor's name when he knows that all hope of living is gone. Montresor betrays Fortunato - a premeditates murder. This is a reference to what Buffy is doing to Anya - she is Montresor in that situation. Spike could also be saying that he is the one trapped, walled in, buried alive. But Buffy is also as walled up as Fortunato - buried alive, not really living. It could also be a reference (back to the beginning) of Buffy's worst fear - being buried alive. But I think now she is metaphorically buried - she's lost touch with her compassion - notice how she treats Spike better before she finds out about the soul. She also is saying scary stuff like I am the law - stuff reminiscent of Faith. She's not in touch with the 'love, give, forgive' that she is capable of. Montresor also created a new wall in the crypt - he literally builds it around Fortunato - this would correlate with the moving walls of the school basement.

There is a line in the story about resting in peace (Spike's theme) and at the very end, there is a line in Latin that loosely translates to No attack with impunity ie - everything has consequences. Whoever walls up anything will be punished - whether by their own psyche when the repression explodes or by another person who's been betrayed.

I'm sure there are other references I have missed but I'm sure that others could add to this list. I'm amazed at the level of thought and organization on the part of ME to create this profound level of thematic depth and complexity in each episode. I'm not really sure what it means in a foreshadowing sense but I'm sure others will help me out on this.
[> Whoo hoo Caroline, great post -- alcibiades, 10:21:57 10/23/02 Wed

Thanks for the Frost reference -- that's amazing.

I also think that Buffy is the one who is walled in.

And since Becoming II is clearly part of the reference schema for last night for many, many reasons, it reminds me that not only was Acathla turned into stone with a sword stuck through his heart, he was also walled into his grave. He is brought up through the earth with walls.

I think Spike is the one unstuck in time and that some of his visions are going to make a lot more sense in retrospect.

I'm a little worried however about what will happen to the hellmouth once its guardian ascends to earth for his own mental salvation. Although it seems that at this point Spike is too worn down or devoured to be checking passes of who belongs in hell and who does not. His actions have become more and more restricted physically until at this point, he never moves, never stands up, just stays crouched down with the gravity of his soul on him.
[> English majors of the world, unite! -- Dyna, 10:53:52 10/23/02 Wed

[> Excellent. -- aliera, 10:58:40 10/23/02 Wed

Wish I had something to add but will leave that to the others. But gad! What a season...I'm sure the pain is coming and Joss will make me like it hate it because this year is just too good!
[> English majors, unite! -- Arethusa, 11:46:39 10/23/02 Wed

The button reference is also a child's game-I believe one child hides a button, and the others have to find it. And the moving walls, as someone already pointed out, could be a reference to the moving staircases at Hogwart's in the Harry Potter books-as is the Dumbledore remark, of course.

The following is the first paragraph of the short story "The Cask of Amontillado:

THE thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge. You, who so well know the nature of my soul, will not suppose, however, that I gave utterance to a threat. AT LENGTH I would be avenged; this was a point definitively settled -- but the very definitiveness with which it was resolved precluded the idea of risk. I must not only punish, but punish with impunity. A wrong is unredressed when retribution overtakes its redresser. It is equally unredressed when the avenger fails to make himself felt as such to him who has done the wrong.
http://www.literature.org/authors/poe-edgar-allan/amontillado.html

Very approproate for an episode about a vengeance demon. And the last words are (in Latin) Rest in Peace-something Anya and Spike were both denied.
[> Nemo me impune lacessit -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 11:55:29 10/23/02 Wed

According to various Web sources (for good or ill) the subject Latin phrase is

"No one injures me with impunity"

1.) the national motto of Scotland

2.) the motto of the Order of the Thistle (Scottish order of knighthood, founded in the seventeenth century)

It was also the refrain, IIRC, of the falcon's song in T. H. White's "The Sword in the Stone."

Don't know if any of this is relevant.
[> Re: An English major's wet dream - spoilers up to 7.5 (warning - poetry within) -- Deb, 14:09:50 10/23/02 Wed

Love your post. I think the speech act itself, being symbolic, can only allude to what is already within the cultural schema, and so is self-alluding. Writing for TV and film usually follows a template, which is an allusion itself, so I don't believe writers (encoders) consciously allude to ALL the texts that are presented. The decoders must work just as hard to find their own self-allusions.


Off topic: Why is it so difficult for most high school juniors and seniors to understand the difference between allusion and illusion? Maybe it's just around here because teachers are never to discuss texts in class. I actually discussed "Streetcar Named Desire" with my college prep. juniors and was written up for using the word "homosexual" and discussing why Blanche hears music in her head that no one else hears. I also got written up for alluding to Buffy in this class. It's the work of Satan.
[> [> Crazy, crazy people (a little off-topic) -- Juliet, 17:33:29 10/23/02 Wed

I think if Satan was going to make demons and put them in TV shows, they'd be a litter more threatening than "I am Olaf! Arggh!" and "Uh, what's that?" (Judge, destroyer of humanity, remember him?)

Carry on with your lovely little discussing now, everyone.
[> [> worng institution -- luna, 18:22:21 10/23/02 Wed

Deb, you should try community college. A lot more civilized. Incidentally, as far as I can see, Xander and Buffy would definitely be there. Not Willow of course, but there's something culturally wrong with the whole vision of education in BtVS. Like there's a whole class missing from the social system. Anybody else notice that? Buffy works in a fast food place, but never thinks about going to school on Financial Aid? I'm not being sarcastic.
[> [> [> Re: worng institution -- Deb, 18:58:32 10/23/02 Wed

Oh, I agree with you. High school just doesn't work anymore. It's like there needs to be some other form of school for 16-20 year olds. And, yeah, I'm thinking junior college now. I taught at a mid-size university for two years and went to high school to catch them before they went to college. ........And the time wasting and money wasting state exams! Something must change, and it would be nice if Buffy showed people how high schools really are. Let her substitute in a "dump all the mainstreamed special ed. and emotionally troubled students here" class (I hope they have 90-minute blocks.) Don't get me wrong; I love the kids. I just don't like what is being given, or not given, to them that's called an education.
[> Wonderful post! & Question...any one else notice the dates?(7.5 spoiler) -- shadowkat, 17:54:44 10/23/02 Wed

Former English Major myself...but must admit never heard of this Frost poem. It's wonderful! And I think it works beautifully.

William was clearly a poet, possibly a Literature major or new literature. He seems to reference it quite a bit, in small asides. Making little cracks here and there even as Spike. If you look closely between the lines, you'll realize his human persona (ie prior to the vamping) was fairly well educated.

In Pangs - he discusses Caesar.
In Passion - he makes a pun (Let's see what rhymes with Lung?)
In early episodes he uses metaphors and follows Buff quip for quip.
Now we start getting actual literary references which go over Buffy's head and school boy talk.

Remember it was Spike who nicknamed Riley the enormous "hall monitor". Then is taking the role himself?
He mentions his chalk running and being caned.

Now he references Poe and Frost - which I think were after his time? Dates? Wasn't Poe 1900s? Although I know he reads. We see him reading in As You Were. And he knows languages - tells Giles he speaks Fyarl.

And his accent? He can change from North London Slang (yeah yeah Whedon's version of North London Slang) and Proper University English.

So I think the button speech works as something from Frost and finally makes sense - I thought it was just crazy rambling. But he is after all referring to a Witch and dealing with a woman who is avoiding him or putting up a wall at the same time?

Uhm...no one's mentioned the fact that Spike was sired in 1880 and Anyanka was created in 880. Is there a significance...or am I just like Buffy having troubles believing in coincidence and leprechauns??
[> [> Poe -- alcibiades, 18:45:57 10/23/02 Wed

I think the Poe was published in the 1840s -- anyway, definitely before William was sired.
[> [> [> E.A. Poe, 1809-1849 -- Cleanthes, 20:19:05 10/23/02 Wed

Poe wrote extensively on proper criticism of esthetic works. I cited his excellent essay on how to criticize successfully over on alt.tv.charmed. Imagine my shock when this (postumously published)essay at:
http://spiffy.net/poe/c/criticism.html
was treated with disdain there merely because it's a paltry 81,000 words long.

Among a whole lot of other things in this essay, Poe his own American's view of British literary elitism. I wouldn't be surprised if William had Poe as an idol. Poe loved Keats, and didn't someone mention Spike's allusions to Keats here sometime in the past few months?

Poe has it that imagination is the soul of intellectual beauty. Now that Spike has his soul back, it does seem his intellectual imagination has expanded tremendously.
[> Why not Oedipus? as long as it's English Majors -- luna, 18:14:32 10/23/02 Wed

Now my thought was the tragic irony of Anya's situation, and how her choice was like Oedipus's attempts to escape his fate. Like him, she chose the best she could--she thought she would give up her life to undo her evil--but instead killed someone (well, not innocent, but... let's at least say someone ELSE). But we don't see her as tragic--why not? Because we've just seen her endearing but horrible in another way dream of domestic bliss? Because a demon can't long for the dreams of humanity? Because she's a dope? Because she's a woman??
Maiden, Mother, Crone: the Women of Selfless (spoilers) -- HonorH, 10:49:39 10/23/02 Wed

Blame Neil Gaiman for this. I find myself looking for these three everywhere. Also, it's early, and this may be a bit rambly.

First, in the Summers house, we've a real Maiden, Mother, Crone triad. Dawn is the obvious Maiden, Buffy her Mother, and Willow, sadder and more experienced now, as well as the mystical one, is the Crone. Aside from that, however, all three of the women who dominated this ep showed all three aspects within themselves.

Buffy: We see her as the Maiden, all sweetness and empathy, with Spike at the beginning. She can be that way--we've seen her that way--but it's not her. We also see her as the Mother, the nurturer, but only briefly, at the beginning. Dawn, her figurative and literal child, is present only in that scene, and she's acting as Xander and Willow's friend. The rest of the episode, though, is taken up by the avenging Crone. Buffy shuts off her maidenly and motherly impulses to go confront Anya as the Slayer.

Aud/Anya/Anyanka: I'd say she's actually the Mother in her Aud incarnation. She's got her bunnies, who she obviously loves, and she wants to take care of everybody, as she expresses. Anya, as we see by the Sunnydale flashback, is defined by her love for a man, and is thus the Maiden. She returns to that state at the end, as she finds herself alone. The rest of the episode is taken by the Crone, her avenging Anyanka personality.

Willow: We also see her in three parts. At the beginning, she's Old Willow, the laughing Maiden. She's acting almost perfecly like the Willow of before, the innocent, enthusiastically jumping back into classes and interacting with her friends the way she used to. Then she takes a jump into being the Crone as she casts the protection spell and her eyes turn black. It's a third incarnation of Willow, one I'll call the Mother, who confronts Anya with her knowledge. This is Willow as she is now--experienced, and not happier for it. Her innocence is lost. She wants to help Anya, but cannot, so she is forced to turn to Buffy first, then D'Hoffryn. Still, her intent is to nurture, to help Anya back from the darkness.

The TriVia, the triple goddess, is used to represent all facets of womanhood. Could we be seeing in this episode the beginnings of Buffy, Anya, and Willow starting to integrate all three aspects into their personalities?
[> Re: Anya the Martyr? -- Deb, 13:32:03 10/23/02 Wed

[> Trying to understand this line of thinking... ("Selfless" Spoilers) -- ZachsMind, 14:32:05 10/23/02 Wed

As I understand the myth tale of the Maiden, Mother & Crone from Gaiman's research of ancient myths and his tales in Sandman, the first balls the yarn & prepares it for the mother, who knits it into something and then the crone decides where to cut and end the fabric. The completed work is a story, and every person has a story, so each fabric represents a human soul's lifespan. So I'm lost in trying to compare Gaiman's variant on the ancient myth to Buffy.

Dawn does start the story in "Selfless." She's the first one with lines, but she doesn't actually prepare things for the rest of the women in the story to continue on. Would that make her the maiden? You could say that Willow's the one who knits the story together. She's the one to find out what Anya's been up to. She brings Buffy into the fight and Buffy brings her sword to cut Anya down to size. The story itself is mostly about Anya, so Anya's the soul whose life is being woven before us. IF the maid, mom & crone thing works in this episode, it's Dawn, then Willow, then Buffy as the crone.

However, it's not Buffy that actually deals the final blow that ends the battle. It's D'Hoffryn who enters into the picture to give Anya an ultimatum, and Willow was the one to put D'Hoffryn into play. So since it's a male figure that acts as the crone in this story, it kinda puts a damper on the whole comparison. Anya's left feeling like nothing. She's not a complete person after the thread has been cut, and it's Hallie's life that's ended not Anya's.

I'm just having trouble understanding this line of thinking.
[> [> I'm speaking in archetypes. -- HonorH, 17:39:18 10/23/02 Wed

The Fates are but one example of the TriVia. They come under different names as well--the Hecatae, the Furies, the Moirae, the Gray Ladies, even the Russian Zorya. Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos are just one facet of the triad. To break it down: the Maiden is the beginning of life. She's innocence. She's sexual and romantic love. The Mother is the nurturer. She cares for others as a wife, friend, and mother. The Crone is the avenger in some mythologies (though not all). She is death--the death one gives, and the death one receives. The Three represent all aspects of womanhood among themselves. Try not to get stuck on one idea of them.
Just a fantasy about Buffyverse -- Sang, 11:52:47 10/23/02 Wed

Watching Btvs, I was having some kind of idea. Wouldn't it be cool, if there is a cult who worship a Slayer? What if there is a prophecy about Slayer who defeated mighty beings and returned from dead and some demons and humans who consider Buffy as a some kind of messiah?

What if they pursuade Buffy that she can ascend to a higher almighty being? Think about the temptation of power. Would it corrupt certain slayer?

Think about the cult leader carries some secret about Slayer's origin. And what if he is a core member of watcher's council? That will give a big conflict with Giles.

Maybe an ancient being, who were destined protected mankind from demons, lost her power because she fell in love with mortal. For her punishment, her power and soul traped and travels through mortal bodies forever and fight the endless fight against demons.

One brief moment of her death chosed another slayer, but she brought back by her friend. This singular event might awake the essencial soul of original being in Buffy. That opens the possibility that Buffy becomes stronger than any slayers before.

What if the cursed lover, a mortal man who fell in forbidden love, incarnated to a man who was destined to be a vampire and joined Buffy? (I am not specifing which vampire here ^_^)

What if there is a real big evil rising to end the world, which only can be defeated by the power of original higher being? And Buffy is force to ascend to a higher being to save the world but instead lose her humanity. What if only way ascension is to sacrifice Faith and retain immortality from Slayer lineage?

In the end, only one who can save her from herself being a big bad might be the one who put her in her fate. A vampire with soul.

Hmm... Sometimes, I want to write a fanfic.. only if my English is good enough.

Oh... it would be funny, if Clem joins the slayer worship cult.
[> Re: and one more thing, -- Sang, 11:57:07 10/23/02 Wed

If they make a final ep. two hour fantasy movie (a la Lord of the Ring) about how this higher being fell in love with mortal and how all this thing started, that would be really cool. Especially, if all the current casts play another roles in that movie.
[> Re: Just a fantasy about Buffyverse -- Hummm....Kali and her numerous incarnations?, 13:38:32 10/23/02 Wed

"Selfless": The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (Who Doesn't *Give* Spoiler Warnings), 12:22:08 10/23/02 Wed

Yes, I am back! I had one messy blood feud with d'Horrible (and if anyone sees him, tell him I want my ears back--both of them), but I emerged triumphant. I have taken back the title of Super-Evil Reviewer, and it shall not be relinquished again. And just in time!

Whee! Now this is an ep to make a demon's heart glad. We get messy vengeance, screaming fights among the Scoobies, and high demon society all mixed up in one delightful bowl. I'm one happy entity today.

Fashion Statements
The Good
Dawn's red shirt in the opening sequence. Exceedingly flattering.

Xander's black tee in the opening sequence. It works for him and makes one think he's got rather nice arms.

Anya! Not a single fashion misstep this episode, amazingly enough. We start with her blood-covered look. Always a good look on a demon. Plus, the rumpled hair flatters her. Then we get her Swedish Housewife look, which was really quite sweet. The loungewear later in the scene with Hallie was both comfy and flattering. And her St. Petersburg gown? Scrumptious! Finally, the simple clothes she wore to face Buffy. Very practical, easy to move in, and not at all sloppy.

Halfrek's black dress--yummy! A must-have for the well-proportioned wreaker of vengeance.

D'Hoffryn. Always dapper. A perfect example of how a demon lord should comport himself. *Sigh!*

The Bad
Willow's badly mismatched outfit. The skirt and boots, in particular, simply didn't go. Wrong colors, the fabric clashed with the leather, and the tights should've been opaque, not see-through. And what *was* that hanging about her neck?

Halfrek's St. Petersburg gown. Too much lace and frou-frou. Expose some skin, dear. The gown made you look all buttoned-up and prim, which is *such* a fashion misstep for a demon.

Anya's 1950s flashback singing dress. Cloying, annoying, and I didn't care for the color. Plus, the segue to the wedding gown. That thing's a monstrosity.

The Iffy
Buffy's black ensemble. In principle, I approve, but I really couldn't get a handle on the overall statement. The shirt was oddly shapeless and bunched at the wrong places, and did the pants have a leather waistband, or was that a belt? Hard to say.

Plot in a Nutshell
Anya slaughters an Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue and goes all Lady MacBeth while revisiting her past. The Scoobies don't help much, and Anya ends up getting tossed out of the Order and Hallie ends up dead. Hope they're happy.

Demonic Quibbles/Comments
I decided to move this section up a bit this week, since there were so many lovely touches. I do believe this Drew Goddard chap did his homework. That or he may just be one of us, and I'd like to think so.

First of all, the touch about the trolls: perfect. That area of Sweden was indeed overrun by trolls from the late 700s to almost the eleventh century. Small nitpick, however: Olaf wouldn't have been a particularly large troll. Most of 'em easily clear seven feet.

The spider demon: Anya called it a "Cresslaw" or "Crefslaw," and I'm thinking they meant it to be a K'rslaa demon. They seldom come quite that size, if it's indeed a K'rslaa. Most of them are about the size of a large atlas, but with a big appetite. They don't spin webs, either, although they do expel a gummy substance with which they hobble their victims. Still, I'll give the writers a pass on that, as they do indeed eat the hearts out of living humans (prey is so much more fun when it squirms). And Halfrek was right: they're terribly hard to housebreak.

Finally, D'Hoffryn's punishment for Anya was right on. Now, some demon lords will simply kill a misbehaving demon, but with the social structure of a Vengeance Demon family, I have to agree completely with his judgment. Anya will now live as a human, knowing she sentenced her closest and oldest friend to annihilation. Go for the pain, not the kill--perfect!

Highlights
The slaughtered Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue. Face it, frat boys don't have any uses other than demon fodder.

The revelation that sweet Buffy was a fake, either the Big Bad Whatever in disguise or Spike's hallucination. I can't tell you how relieved I was!

The momentary re-emergence of Darth Willow, and D'Hoffryn's acknowledgement thereof. I dearly hope they're not leading us down the primrose path, because I was completely jazzed.

Hallie counseling Anya. She was so correct--a period of being human *will* twist your perceptions, and I do wish that Anyanka had simply gotten over it and moved on with her life.

The flashbacks! Wonderful to see Anyanka aborning and in her full demonic glory.

The Screaming Scooby Fight. I just never get tired of that kind of thing, y'know?

The Anyanka/Buffy smackdown. Yaay!

D'Hoffryn's appearances. I always look forward to seeing that demon lord, and he was simply spectacular in this episode.

The Lowlights
Xander as a whole. If he'd just wear short sleeves and yell at Buffy, I'd like the boy, but nooo, he has to go all gallant. Sickening!

Buffy killing the spider demon. Totally unfair technique.

Anya's song. Yes, she sang prettily, but what depressing lyrics! How happy am I that she's beyond that tripe now?

Hallie's death. Yes, I understand why it had to happen, but I'm going to miss her.

Burning Questions
Where will Spike move now? Xander's apartment?

Will anyone ever going to trust Buffy with pencils again?

Is Anya human again, or is she just a demon outcast?

Do the frat boys remember what happened? Did D'Hoffryn clean up the blood? Gosh, I hope not!

Is anything worse than political adverts interrupting one's television-watching?

Overall Rating
A green-tinged "Hey! Your face!" on the Non Sequitur Scale. Easily the best episode of the season, and it trumps most of last season as well.
[> Re: "Selfless": The Super-Evil Review -- Le Fey, 12:30:59 10/23/02 Wed

Drew Goddard, Drew Goddard....that name sounds so familiar... Great hells! I think I met him in the Demon2Demon chatroom! Went by the name JossMinion32. No wonder he was asking so many questions!

*looks around* What? What's more evil than the Internet?
[> Re: "Selfless": The Super-Evil Review -- Spiny Norman, 12:33:40 10/23/02 Wed

As frat boys may be one of the primary forces of evil working among the humans it strikes me that slaughtering a bunch of them is a dubious act of darkness. Quite a few of them probably drove SUVs. Given their behaviour towards the young lady in the closet they probably had great potential. Maybe D'Hoffryn was even cleverer than we thought.

Besides they are so much more tasty when you eat them alive.
[> Answers to Burning Questions -- Saguaro Stalker, 12:58:57 10/23/02 Wed

Where will Spike move now? Xander's apartment? I don't know but I think there is a vacancy in Halfrek's building.

Will anyone ever going to trust Buffy with pencils again? Yes, but perhaps they need to rethink giving her a can to keep them in.

Is Anya human again, or is she just a demon outcast? Let's be optimistic. After all she did tell Xander to hit the road at the end. And she did thank him for everything, which includes not marrying her and letting her fall into that trap. But, I do worry about her being pleased at being call a dope. All too human a reaction, I'm afraid.

Do the frat boys remember what happened? Did D'Hoffryn clean up the blood? Gosh, I hope not! Do frat boys ever remember what happened? Gosh, they hope not!

Is anything worse than political adverts interrupting one's television-watching? No especially when one is trying to concentrate on the ontology of the Victoria's Secret adverts.
[> Re: "Selfless": The Super-Evil Review -- RobAndMurder, 16:23:11 10/23/02 Wed

Yes, it did bring a tear to my eye to see Anyanka back...Reminded me of the good old days, pillaging and destroying. Too bad she had to ruin it all by feeling all guilty at the end. You know what that leads to? Right! An attempt at nobility, which of course backfired when Hallie, one of the best VDs around was incinerated in her place. Wise up, Anyanka, you got your demon wings back...Be glad, shut up, and enjoy the carnage! Even Willow could tell you that. I'm not the only one, I hope, who noticed the pitch-black glee in Willow's eyes to once again, for a short time, be back in the evil fold. Methinks there's hope for our girl yet!

Thanks again for another great review, Hellbitch!

RobAndMurder

P.S. My snivelling, wimpy, good alter-ego, Rob, who likes EVERYTHING would like to add a word here:

"Having an evil alter-ego is fun! I love it!"

Yawn, told ya he was a drag.
[> Re: "Selfless": The Super-Evil Review -- Sophomorica, 16:24:58 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy's black ensemble was definately iffy and bunched all wronged. She appeared to have no bustline - now what is that supposed to indicate?

The communist revolution scene sure brought back memories. *sigh* Those were the good 'ol days. Still got my party card here somewhere.

O/T
Did you pick up my halberd the other night, by chance?
[> [> Oh, quit with the halberd! -- Honorificus (She Who Doesn't Need No Stinkin' Polearms), 21:30:04 10/23/02 Wed

You're always obsessing about that stupid halberd. Get yourself a nice mace or some other phallic symbol. I'm getting sick of the halberd.

And yeah, the Communist Revolution brings back pleasant memories. Really, who *doesn't* love a good revolution? Blood, violence, chaos--all the simple pleasures of life.
[> [> [> *swish*......*thock!* -- Sophomorica, who smells something burning, 05:57:58 10/24/02 Thu

[> I fight authority and authority always wins - confessions of an anti-social type (S7 spoilers) -- J-err.. MagicBone, 19:56:13 10/23/02 Wed

The only fashion I'm interested is naked, Baltic women. Uughh, all this talking of breeding makes me want to do some! Where are the drunken wenches from the other night? Despite the undeniable bend-over quality of Aud, she does have those insane, "troll-like" ideas. Now, if she could only be convinced that she needs lots and lots of sex. But that's probably impossible.

I am enjoying this "new" Spike. He is even more pathetic than I ever dreamed him to be. He now cries quicker than a newborn in need of waste removal. He is like that guy in that awful Liz Hurley, Brendan Fraser movie where the intensely sensitive guy bawled every time he glance at the sunset. Not that he'll ever have that opportunity. Now if we can only get some scenes with him being frightened by puppies or boy bands and the like.

I still enjoy seeing the Slayer being tortured by her "true love" from when she was 16 years old. It's almost as pathetic as a vampire with a chip and soul. 16 year old true love is just so laughable at the concept, let alone the actual practice. Hopefully she'll return the favor to some hapless 16 year old student that will appreciate the difference between xbox and playstation2. But dude, it is soo cool.

And this red-headed wiccan, she couldn't straddle the line any more if it had attachments. She doesn't even need to be tempted to the black arts anymore. All you need to do is threaten her, and she reverts to the black arts quicker than you can say "thigh highs".

I worry about our most subversive agent of evil, the perennial do gooder, Beady Eyes. His cover seems to be unraveling layer by layer. Hopefully it will be so gradual that his friends won't notice until it is too late. Bwahwahwahahahah. His heart will be our greatest weapon, one that the most sinister will never see coming. What better trap to set other than a mongrel set upon a sacrificial stone. Especially if you confuse them with the conquistador vs comfortador query first.


I been doing it, since I was a young kid
I've come out grinnin'
I fight authority, authority always wins
Oh no
Oh no
I fight authority, authority always wins
[> [> I find boy bands pretty frightening, myself -- Indri, 21:11:51 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> [> Thanks for the evil endorsement; others will tremble from this -- hands off the MagicBone!, 21:50:39 10/23/02 Wed

A message in Anya's hair? -- Darby, 14:26:31 10/23/02 Wed

What's the musical sequence mean?

Anya's hair wasn't long, wavy and blonde in Once More With Feeling. Or in Selfless. In fact, has it ever looked exactly like that? Does SongInterludeAnya represent some idealized memory going through her head while she's pinned buglike to a wall? Does she want to be Veronica Lake? Is the dress/nightgown suited to the Anya we knew last season?

And wouldn't her idealized memory involve a breakaway pop hit rather than another retro pastiche number?
[> Gahhh! Forgot the "Selfless Spoiler" warning! Again! -- Darby, 14:28:42 10/23/02 Wed

[> Re: A message in Anya's hair? -- Veronica, 18:30:53 10/23/02 Wed

Um, it was long, wavy and sorta-blonde.

OMWF screen caps: http://bu.creativelycreated.com/pictures/screencaps/ep07.htm
(Xander and Anya in the bottom row)

Two reasons it looked different
- bag wig that photographs differently than the natural hair did originally.
- deliberate idealized memory.

And Anya in the wedding dress was pretty much exactly as she looked in Hell's Bells: http://bu.creativelycreated.com/pictures/screencaps/ep16.htm
Drew Goddard -- Sang, 16:56:56 10/23/02 Wed

Our new Btvs writer got Summa Cum Laude with his B.A. thesis at Colorado U. Dept. of English. You can read the abstract of his thesis here.

http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~honors/theses/f97/goddard.html

I also heard that he was related with the father of rocket, Robert Goddard. What is the exact relation between them?
"There's a difference..." (Spoilers for Buffy up to 'Selfless', Angel in 'Deep Down') -- Diana Michelle, 17:06:56 10/23/02 Wed

The echoing of themes on BtVS and Angel is interesting to look at.

Vengeance and 'what people deserve'.

None of the women that we've see vengeance granted to have enjoyed the results.

We could start with the Gypsy Curse. It was about Vengeance, 'a living thing'. It was about what they felt Angel 'deserved'. Because of Angel's curse, there was a horrific amount of pain. It didn't help anyone. It only caused more pain.

That's the theme of Vengeance throughout the series. All it causes is more pain.

Anya's repetition of "They got what they deserved" reminded me of Connor saying twice to Angel, "You got what you deserved".

Which brought me to Wesley's views on that: "We all get what we deserve." And then to Angel's line: "What I deserve is up for debate. There's a difference between wishing vengeance on someone and taking it."

There's a difference between wishing that your boyfriend was a worm, and seeing him as one. There's a difference between wishing that something would rip out the hearts of the men who metaphorically ripped out yours, and seeing it. There's a difference between wishing that someone would suffer for all eternity and consigning them to a watery 'grave'.

What does Anya deserve? Connor? Buffy? Willow? Xander?
[> Selflessness, Wronged Women, and Vengeance -- Wisewoman, 18:56:00 10/23/02 Wed

Which brought me to Wesley's views on that: "We all get what we deserve." And then to Angel's line: "What I deserve is up for debate. There's a difference between wishing vengeance on someone and taking it."

There's a difference between wishing that your boyfriend was a worm, and seeing him as one. There's a difference between wishing that something would rip out the hearts of the men who metaphorically ripped out yours, and seeing it. There's a difference between wishing that someone would suffer for all eternity and consigning them to a watery 'grave'.


I'm not sure that what I want to say about the character of Anya is directly related to your comments about vengeance and what people deserve, but your post helped me but some of my scattered thoughts on this together.

I was surprised to find that Aud had the same distinctive and somewhat troubling personality that Anyanka and Anya have. I attributed most of Anya's "fish-out-of-water" aspect to the fact that she'd forgotten how to be human after so many years as a Vengeance Demon. Seeing her in her original human guise was a revelation. There she was, treating Olaf essentially the same way she treated Xander. He was her entire world. I don't remember the line exactly (besides, it was in Swedish!) but she said something like, "What would I ever do without you?"

So, Aud was the kind of person who defined herself through others. She didn't get along with many people; admitted to D'Hoffryn that she didn't have friends or talk to people much because they basically told her to bugger off. When Olaf cheated on her he destroyed the core of her self-image: she was Aud in her own mind only as she related to Olaf. Maybe that's why D'Hoffryn saw so clearly that she was Anyanka.

This got me thinking about people's expectations of one another, both reasonable and unreasonable, and that eventually segued into women's expectations of men. Then I started to wonder if Joss and ME had been trying to tell us something that I'd missed until now.

Anyanka was "the Patron Saint of Scorned Women." Is there a comparable vengeance demon working on behalf of scorned men? Was Anya a perfect choice as a vengeance demon precisely because she was a woman who defined herself in terms of a man, and whose man failed to live up to her expectations, thereby depriving her of her borrowed identity?

Selfless makes it perfectly clear that Anya has never been a person in her own right. She went from altruistically sharing her wealth of rabbits with her fellow villagers to waxing sage on the first stirrings of communism to becoming a flag waving American capitalist--seamlessly slipping into the predominant ideology of whatever time and place she inhabited. She lived for Olaf as Aud; she lived to avenge scorned women as Anyanka; and she lived for Xander as Anya.

Is there the faintest implication here that the sort of women Anyanka avenges are those, like her human alter-egos, who have no lives outside of their relationships to men? Or perhaps women whose expectations of their menfolk have been unreasonable, and thus unfulfilled?

I guess the question is, if these scorned women are indeed in the right, and deserving of vengeance, then why are their needs served by a Vengeance Demon instead of an Avenging Angel? Doesn't the very fact that it's a demon who grants their wishes imply that their wish for vengeance is evil, rather than good?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Emma Caulfield and have absolutely no desire to watch Roma Downey, but there's something about this that's starting to eat away at me and I can't get away from the thought that it's something about what Joss and ME are saying about women, or perhaps about a certain type of woman.

Anybody help me out here?

dub ;o)
[> They all deserve to learn a "Lesson" -- luvtthistle1, 19:04:09 10/23/02 Wed

I think they all deserve to learn a Lesson, and they will.
Xander seemed to learn his lesson in "Selfless". He was able for the first time to see things from Buffy point of view (over her having to kill Angel) and Buffy saw things from his (she felt that it was necessary to kill Anya, she wouldn't even consider giving it a day). Willow saw the damage of real vengeance, and Anya remind her of her walk on the dark side. The scoobies all seemed to learn a "Lesson" , But where was Dawn, when all of this was being learned? What lesson have she learned?


Angel:

Angel learned that he can love again. That was the first time he said the L word, that wasn't related to Buffy. Please he learn to reach out. He admitted that he needed Cordy. Wes, Gunn, Fred and Conner still have a lot of lesson to learn. one I hope they learn this season, is "forgiveness"
[> [> Re: They all deserve to learn a "Lesson" -- celticross, 19:21:05 10/23/02 Wed

I think Dawn wasn't there because the lessons learned were lessons begun before Dawn was even around (in the sense of the show's pure chronology). Dawn had no part in the great debates of Season 2, and probably had a very small one in the made memories given by the monks. So to include her probably would have felt out of joint.
[> [> [> Um, she was probably in school, so she wasn't learning any lessons at all. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:27:30 10/23/02 Wed

So what's wrong with the Law? -- Anne, 18:01:56 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy in "Selfless" said: "I am the Law".

Some people on the boards have had a problem with this. In a way, I have no problem with it at all. And in another way, I think that Joss is setting this statement up to be challenged by a greater paradigm.

I think that an opposition is being set up here that is very similar to the opposition between "The Law" and "Love" in Christianity. Don't tell me that Joss is an atheist: I know. But he is an intelligent and literate man, and the truth is that the roots of 21st century secular humanism go deep into Christian thought, regardless of whether anyone in particular believes that God exists or that a man named Jesus was the Son of God. The opposition between a morality based in the idea of "the Law" and of "Love" go just as deep, and on the basis of what I've seen of his work so far I think this is a theme in which Joss is deeply invested.

What is the Law? It is a system where there are rules regarding what is right or wrong, and you obey them or not. You don't obey; you are wrong, and are punished. You do obey; you are right, and are rewarded. Simple. And ruthless. Morality here is an external system of rules; conform, or be condemned.

Against that, one can propose another system, where right action is rooted from within in an attitude or way of being. It is an attitude that looks beyond, transcends, goes for the miraculous. It is in the attitude of a father whose son, a wastrel -- someone who has broken all the rules -- comes home after many years and is greeted with rejoicing and a feast because "he was lost, and is found, was dead, and is alive". It is in the attitude of a vineyard owner who hires many laborers throughout the day and pays the last, those who only worked an hour, as much as the first. It is the attitude of some men who stop by the roadside to help somebody who has been set upon and wounded by robbers, even though he belongs to a hostile, inferior, and scorned tribe. It is the attitude which finds it greater to forgive one's enemies than one's friends. In place of justice and retribution it puts mercy, forgiveness, and above all love.

How does that relate to Buffy? Well, as I said, in a way I think her speech in "Selfless" was absolutely right on. People complain that she's appointing herself judge, jury and executioner. No she's not. SHE'S BEEN CHOSEN TO BE. Now that she's Slayer -- well, truthfully, she IS the law. Call me crazy, but I personally liked her better giving this speech than I have in a long time. She's really taking responsibility for the place she's been put in.

But I think this episode was set up for us to see the limitations of that, and it does so by drawing a parallel between Buffy and Anyanka. Within the conceptual framework she's using, Buffy is completely right. But is that the only possible framework? How big of a difference is there, really, between Buffy saying "I am the Law" and Anyanka saying "Vengeance is what I am"? Two people, doing a job, acting according to a definition. But is there another way?

Xander and Willow both, pushed to find an alternate solution -- and found one. An entirely good one? No, not really -- we were led to become a little fond of Halfrek (all hail to Kali Rocha's career, by the way! love her voice), and if Anya could become redeemed, is it quite impossible to think that Halfrek could have been as well? Still, Anya had declared herself as someone who was willing to die for her sins, and Halfrek had shown no remorse. More importantly Xander and Willow had pushed for another way, they were looking, while Buffy still stayed in the "she did bad and so must die" routine. They pushed out of mercy, and forgiveness, and love, and found another way.

So I don't think Buffy was wrong to say that she was the Law, given the paradigm of the law. Quite the contrary. But maybe she needs to find another paradigm. And maybe that's part of what the season will be about.
[> woops, "Selfless" spoilers above (though not specific) -- Anne, 18:05:27 10/23/02 Wed

[> I have to agree. -- HonorH, 20:31:18 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy's not talking about human laws here--as she demonstrated last season, she's content to let human laws take care of humans. So we're not talking a Faith attitude of being above human laws. When it comes to the supernatural, someone has to stand in the gap and make certain that humans are safe. Buffy has been elected the cosmic policewoman. She represents the law, and she has to apply it. That's why she *had* to consider Willow as a suspect in STSP, and that's why Willow forgave her that so easily. As she said, Xander had the luxury of belief; Buffy, as the Slayer, has to consider all possibilities.
[> [> Exactly! I agree too... -- Rob, 21:42:21 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy said, "I am the law," but she did not refer to human laws, but to the things that humans cannot prosecute--vampires, demons, what have you--and is out of their domain. And in that respect, the Slayer is judge, jury, and executioner of all evil supernatural things. And therefore, for creatures of the night, she is the law.

Rob
[> I think you've said what I've been thinking (spoilers 7.5) -- TeacherBoy, 21:34:08 10/23/02 Wed

This being my favorite ep of the season, I was all set to write an big, long impressive essay with lots of big words and fancy ideas. But then something funny happened on the way to the computer. I got stuck.

No, not stuck between the couch and the wall. Stuck in the sense that although there was more stuff to chew on in this episode than in any previous ep, I couldn't think of what I wanted to say, and I couldn't place why I couldn't say it. Anne, I think you have at least steered me in the right direction.

I could go on and on about all the various plot happenings, but others have done that better than I could have. More to the point, I don't think that the most important aspect to this ep was the question of Buffy's actions toward Anyanka. The reason that I am so conflicted by this episode are the contradictions I am having trouble reconciling - specifically, the contradictions between every single character and their own actions. After spending the last 5 hours in my kitchen, I don't have the stamina to go over every single one (maybe later), but I want to hit on the one highlighted by Anne and HonorH. That relationship being the one with Buffy and her self.

I think we all forget, from time to time, that Buffy didn't sign up for this gig. Xander, Willow, Anya, Giles and others always have the option of bugging out, but not Buffy. Buffy never ran for the title of, "Most Likely to Slay the Undead." Instead, some guy walked up to her and said, "You're the Chosen One. Deal with it." Well, not exactly, but from Buffy's point of view, close enough. And she has been trying to deal with it ever since, with varying degrees of success.

At this point in her life, Buffy seems to be falling into the *real* Slayer mentality for the first time, and I think the consequences of this have yet to play out. In "Selfless", Buffy is fighting all sorts of demons. Spiders, Anyanka...but most importantly, she is fighting the demons in herself, the demons that say, 'Demons bad - I am The Slayer - I am The Law - kill demons.' Even though she has plently on evidence to the contrary (where to start) - Clem, Angel, any demon that is not currently posing a threat to humanity, and most importantly, a crazy vampire in the school basement. While other characters are busy *acting* in contradictory ways, Buffy is trying to *live* in a contradictory way, and the ramifications of this will, I believe, drive the plot for the rest of the season.

There, *now* can you see why I haven't been able to post? Blah, blah, "buffy reference", blah. Off to re-watch the ep. Maybe I can be more coherent.

TeacherBoy
Wall imagery in Season 7: Who's behind the wall? Spike or Buffy? (Spoilers) -- LeeAnn, 18:29:51 10/23/02 Wed

Wall Imagery in Season 7

Season 7 is full of heart imagery but I've noticed a significant amount of wall imagery as well.

Again and again Buffy finds Spike in the basement, his back against a wall. In Lessons Spike turns away from Buffy, puts his hands on the wall and says "It's in the wall." and moans. He also speaks of trying to wall up the bad parts of himself. Xander says "We can't use the blueprints to find our way around down here [in the basement, in the vaults? Beneath Buffy?]. It's like the walls move or something."

In the scene with Willow in Same Time Same Place Spike suddenly faces the wall and starts talking to it. But later we see he was talking to Buffy, she was behind the wall, or he was. Did he always think Buffy was one of the things behind the wall? In Selfess he says to Buffy "Scream 'Montresor' all you want, pet". This is from Poe's The Cask of Amontillado where Montresor walls up Fortunato in an underground vault. Forever. Buffy too is walled off. From Spike. From her friends? Will Buffy's attempt to kill Anya affect her friendship with Xander?

When I first noticed the wall imagery I thought it was Spike who was walled off. Spike in the basement behind the walls that move, blocking him from escaping, like the wall Montresor built blocking in Fortunato. Spike talking about the evil behind the walls, Spike trying to wall off the bad parts of himself.( You go off and try to wall up the bad parts and put your heart back in where it fell out. You call yourself finished, but you're not. Worse than ever, you are...) But now I think it may be about Buffy as well. She is the one that Spike sees behind the wall in Same Time Same Place. And he is the one who tells Buffy to call out 'Montresor!' as Fortunato calls out 'Montresor!' as he is being walled up. So Buffy is cast in the Fortunato role. "THE thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could" and so Spike has born a thousand injuries from Buffy. (I'm not saying Spike wasn't evil or hasn't done terrible things. But since we have known Spike they have been few and far between. And let's face it, the standards for an evil vampire and a hero are not the same. And now that Spike has a soul, shouldn't he be forgiven. Angel was.)

But has Buffy walled herself off from, at the very least, her feelings for Spike? Like she has walled herself off from her feelings of betrayal about Angel, from his failure to love her without a soul, his failure to get a soul for her, and from her own feelings about his desertion. I think we know how much more betrayed she would feel if she knew about Darla and Connor.

So Buffy, in trying to wall herself off from pain, has walled herself off from love. At least from Spike's love. She's reached out to Willow, the murderess, and Dawn, the theif. But not to Spike. And how many times has Spike saved her and Dawn because he loved her. Just this season he's helped her repeatedly. In Lessons he explains the nature of the spirits in the basements which allows her to figure out how to destroy them. He fights Ronnie the Worm in Beneath You. He fights the demon in Help. Any of these opponents might have killed Buffy just as the lucky vampire in Fool for Love almost did. If she continues to reject Spike, treat him coldly, will his love end? Will she lose Spike's help when it's necessary for her survival and maybe the survival of the world? Spike finally fell out of love with Dru because she rejected him (although you could argue that that was because Dru knew he had fallen for the Slayer). Will he fall out of love with Buffy because she rejects him and treats him cruelly? William walked away from Cicely and into his death because she treated him cruelly and rejected him. Will he walk away from Buffy if she continues to do the same thing? I think he's capable of it. Buffy's walls endanger Spike. They might be a danger to herself as well.


(Aside: In Same Time Same Place a Teen Boy spray-paints graffiti on a earth retention wall at the construction site where dirt has been removed below the grade [beneath the ground?]. He's painting the word "Spider" when something unseen stalks him from the shadows.)
[> Re: Wall imagery in Season 7: Who's behind the wall? Spike or Buffy? (Spoilers) -- Apophis, 20:21:44 10/23/02 Wed

Yes, Buffy reached out to Willow (her best friend for 7 years) and Dawn (her SISTER), but not Spike (the mass murderer and attempted rapist). Man, I hate her.
[> [> I really can't see -- Sophist, 20:50:11 10/23/02 Wed

that this post adds much to any discussion. I think LeeAnn makes a good point: why does Spike tell Buffy to cry Montresor? Does he see her as Fortunato? Why?

It's a fair point and deserves a fair answer.
[> [> [> Sorry. Reflex. No more not adding. -- Apophis, 21:02:46 10/23/02 Wed

[> Re: Wall imagery in Season 7: Who's behind the wall? Spike or Buffy? (Spoilers) -- pr10n, 21:49:28 10/23/02 Wed

Taking a page from one of Spike's comtemporary Londoners, let's remove the improbable first -- if Spike's a madman, and he's free-associating with his poetical database as the term bank, than the Montresor shoutout rates high on a certain demony reviewer's non sequitur scale and we shouldn't read in anything but a buried alive-walled in-imprisoned vibe.

But Spike seems to know something about what's going on in the basement, and SunnyHellmouthdale, so what he says probably needs more examination.

If Buffy is the "Montresor" screamer, than Spike is casting her as The Victim, He Who Hangs Around Wine Cellars in Cap'n'Bells, Fortunato. And that works with the Poe quote, as Spike has borne her insults and more. But that makes HIM Montresor, he's the Man with the Trowel.

And that doesn't seem to fit, or at least not anything ME has revealed about Spike so far. Is he to be Buffy's end, is Spike going to trap Buffy and go all brick-and-vengeance?

I say no.

But then who's he talking about? Who is walled in screaming for help? Well, Spike is, walled in his head for the nonce, by himself. In his experience, after you've walled yourself in somewhere, you can scream Montresor all you want and you'll just get a reverby head.

ANd he says pretty clearly that the others can't connect to each other, he saw it between Willow and Xander and Buffy in STSP.

So maybe he's saying to Buffy, "You can't wall yourself in, looking for protection against everything else outside, without eventually suffering and wasting away." And maybe he's realized it about himself, too. He's screamed Montresor for months now and no one's coming to rescue him -- he better figure out a way to tear down the wall.

Paging Pink Floyd, please come to the High School basement, Mr. Floyd.
[> [> Bwwaahhhhaa...see, it's a ...Clue -- LeeAnn, 22:06:40 10/23/02 Wed

I've decided that a season of Buffy is like a long game of Clue with Joss and the ME writers leaving clues for us so we can understand what has happened and guess what will happen. (Is that what the Mustard song should bring to our minds?...Colonel Mustard? Hehe!)

But in addition to the real clues, they leave a lot of fake clues as well. Our job, if we care to accept it, is winnowing through them and determining which are real and which are fake.
Help from Buffy fans -- Rynn01, 20:35:01 10/23/02 Wed

I have a friend at home who has never seen Buffy or Angel, and doesn't understand what I talk about when I talk about Joss's way of thinking - all the things that's discussed here. She also doesn't understand why I'm so hooked on the 2 shows.

So, if you could only show one eppy to get someone to understand the Buffyverse, what would it be? I'm going home this weekend, and have convinced her to watch a couple of shows w/ me. The musical is a given. I'm saying only one other episode b/c she has 2 small children, so we can't have an all night Buffython like I want to.

I know that it's really impossible w/ just one, that's why I need help deciding!

We might have time for more, but w/ the kids you never know. I would like to watch one from the early seasons and then one to show how the characters have grown. However, the most important thing for me is to show her why we're so attached to the characters. As far as leting her know what the shows about, once I decide which ones we'll watch, I'm gonna tell her the background for all the characters in the eppisode. At least the relevent bg.

Since it is so hard to do what I want w/ just one, I'll even change it to which top 3 would you show? It would also be interesting to hear why you picked those. Hush or OMWF will be my fourth b/c I'll definently take one of those. So do you think Hush or OMWF shows Joss's genius more?

I also posted this over at the spoiler board, and a few of them mentioned Restless. Do you think that Restless is a good choice for a first time viewer? I would love to be able to show her that and then some of the ones that it foreshadows, but not enough time. I kinds think that by itself it might be to confusing? Agree or disagree? Can't wait to hear your picks!
Rynn
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- Wisewoman, 20:54:10 10/23/02 Wed

I do think that Restless would be too confusing for a first-time viewer. (Heck, it was confusing for me, and I was a diehard fan!)

My suggestion would be "Fool for Love" because it's a straight narrative that gives some of the history of both vampires and slayers.

Good luck!
dub ;o)
[> [> I second the "Fool for Love" vote... -- Rob, 21:14:13 10/23/02 Wed

"Fool for Love" to give your friend a taste of the history and mythology of the show, as well as some of the characters...and "Once More, With Feeling" to show off the sheer ingenious creativity and ingenuity of "Buffy."

Rob
[> [> [> Thirding this. -- HonorH, 21:21:46 10/23/02 Wed

"Fool For Love" would be terrific. Also, "Hush" and OMWF should be on your Top Three list. FFL is the most accessible, I think, and really covers the mythos. "Hush" is a pretty straightforward action story that gives one a taste of just what a genius Joss is. OMWF is a great showcase for the talents of the whole crew, too. Go for it!
[> [> [> [> Fourthing it. -- OnM, 21:31:35 10/23/02 Wed

1 - Prophecy Girl

2 - Fool For Love

3 - OMwF

Is someone babysitting the kids? No small child will sit still for three hours!

Good luck! Converts to our religion are always welcome!

;-)
[> [> [> [> [> Fool For Love is good -- VampRiley, 09:26:16 10/24/02 Thu

But, I'd just say that FFL is just the first half of a two hour ep. I'd show "Darla" as the second half from Angel Season 2. It showed 2 of the story arcs from angel's perspective that showed up in FFL.

VR

Hey!! I found time to post
[> [> [> Re: Love "Fool for Love" but... -- pr10n, 21:27:45 10/23/02 Wed

I vote for _The Prom_. It shows Buffy at her happiest and saddest and butt-kickinest, it's got back story from Anya and Xander, it's got Oz and Willow, Cordelia and [hack, spit] Wimp!Wesley, and Giles and the blueberry scone.

Less painful angsty adulthood, more painful angsty dress worries -- the good old days.

And it's got the Protector award, the single most poignant Buffy moment IMO. Good luck with your friend!
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- JBone, 21:38:52 10/23/02 Wed

If you like your chances of convincing her to watch more than the two you hope to. Welcome to the Helmouth is as good as any introduction to a tv series, ever. I don't know if this is the "hook" you're looking for, but it introduces, explains, and entertains as well or better than any other tv pilot in history.
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- TeacherBoy, 21:57:35 10/23/02 Wed

Well, I have been in this situation several times, and here was my lineup (with 5 ep's, but the big 3 are starred):

1. Innocence*
2. Becoming Pt. II*
3. Doppelgangland
4. Graduation Pt. II
5. Hush*

Why did I choose these five? I think if you really want to get people hooked on the show, you have to show them what it is that makes "Buffy" great, without choosing an ep that relies too much on backstory, and I think that these stand alone pretty well. And I just realized that all 5 were written by JW. I have to say that my two fav's (The Body and OMWF) are not on the list because I think that both rely on knowing the characters and the story pretty well. There's my $0.07 worth.

TeacherBoy
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- Arya_Stark, 22:06:24 10/23/02 Wed

OMWF or Hush to show Joss's genius?

Well, I can't really answer that question, but I can tell you that OMWF was the show that hooked me and made me a die-hard fan. And it works just fine if you don't know the characters. (It's even better once you do know the characters).

However, with my ONE shot to get my boyfriend to at least respect Buffy, I'm going to show him Hush. He's not a big musical fan and I've decided that Hush is the best of the rest.

As for my third choice, I'd go with Innocence.

Restless is too weird to hook someone with. (Although, it might work for a big Twin Peaks fan)
[> Suggestion -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:25:49 10/24/02 Thu

I suggest Lie To Me. It provides philosophy about morality, and can dispell many of the preconceptions that Buffy is just tenny-bopper fluff.
[> [> Yay Finn -- KdS, 04:59:53 10/24/02 Thu

Great choice. Little back story, a fair amount of back story established, and the first real moral ambiguity and depth of characterisation in the series.
[> [> [> Re: Yay Finn -- Arethusa, 08:31:49 10/24/02 Thu

It also shows that BtVS doesn't glamorize or prosetelyze for the occult, one of the biggest objections against BtVS that I've heard from people who've never seen the show.
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- Rynn01, 05:58:51 10/24/02 Thu

Everyone has given great ideas. Thanks! No there won't be a babysitter, thats why we can't watch as many as I want to. Most of the time they will play in the playroom, but not always.

Tonight I'm going to review the eppys listed and TRY to make a decision. But keep the ideas coming. I love hearing why people would pick the ones that they do. I do have a feeling that JW ones will be the ones that make it home with me.
Rynn01
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- Darby, 07:28:14 10/24/02 Thu

I don't think that there is a set answer to this, but if you know your friend, which ep would appeal to them the most? Do they need the Welcome to the Hellmouth broad introduction? Have they been to frat parties - Reptile Boy, with you there to point out the text AND the subtext, could be a good introduction to the layers of the show. Other eps from the high school, college, and working-world seasons might resonate. Do any of their personal experiences wind up in episodes - people with fast-food worker experience seem to have liked Doublemeat Palace. Heck, I expect people who've been on swim teams might prefer Go Fish. Folks with bad break-ups in their past might love or hate the S2 Angelus eps.

My suspicion is that Restless, even with you explaining as it goes, is just too wrapped up in the mythos to be a good entry portal, unless they're into dream analysis.

I guess the point is that you probably can pick better than any of us - if your memory of the breadth and depth of the past eps matches mine, you can go to Masq's Episode Guide site and look over the list to see what might be appropriate.
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- HumanTales, 08:46:46 10/24/02 Thu

I certainly agree with Hush and Once More with Feeling. Pure genius. I don't think Restless is a good introduction; it relies too much on what has come before.

When it comes to introduction and hooking, er explaining to someone why this show is so great, Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest did it for my husband and I.

We had nothing better to do, nothing was on TV that night that we were at all interested in, and with a 2-year-old at home, we didn't exactly have an overabundance of energy. So, we decided to watch this show with the stupid name that would probably give us a few laughs. We've both been hooked since. (P.S.: with videotape, you can pause when the little ones need attention. Or you can hook them at the same time; our son is moderately interested.)

Good luck with addicting, er introducing, your friend to the best hour on TV.
[> The Zeppo -- ZachsMind, 09:11:03 10/24/02 Thu

It encapsulates the first three seasons into one, shows you the whole Scooby gang at that point from Xander's perspective, and has two or three plot arcs going at once. One of the better shows and a great way to introduce people to the BuffyVerse.
[> [> Really? -- Darby, 10:06:00 10/24/02 Thu

I like the episode, but it's a parody of the show (it's not just Xander's perspective, it's the writers having fun) and seems like a confusing introduction. It's tough to appreciate a parody with no knowledge of where the jokes are - or why they're jokes.

The Zeppo is like Beetlejuice's take on The Exorcist - it keep getting funnier every time I see it. The Giles-at-the-crypt scene has more meaning since Wesley went to the drive-through, for instance...
[> [> [> My favorite "Zeppo" moment was the... -- Rob, 12:05:31 10/24/02 Thu

"Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead"-esque moment when Xander walks in and interrupts Buffy and Angel's highly charged, overly soap-operatic moment at his home. It was just so great that we see one of these standard Buffy and Angel angst scenes, although even more pumped-up on the angst and melodrama than usual, and then...there's Xander! And he leaves, and they fall right back into their roles of the scene. That was ingenious!

Rob
[> [> [> [> Nice choice... -- ZachsMind, 12:18:20 10/24/02 Thu

It's the music being interrupted & then swelling again upon Xander's exit that does it. The comic timing of the entire episode is one of its best.

I pick that episode as an intro partially because it doesn't take itself too seriously. A newcomer shouldn't be thrust into a major ultra-serious plot arc like Glory or The Mayor at their start. Zeppo mentions the Hellmouth, and encapsulates their effort with the first season in one episode. We get an understanding of how the characters interact. It's a nice sweet taste that often encourages a desire for more among newcomers.

Predominantly, for a first episode the veteran should choose a self-contained 'monster of the week' type episode for the newbie. Zeppo's one of the better capsule eps.
[> Well..this is what I did -- shadowkat, 11:18:42 10/24/02 Thu

When I got someone past it's a teeny bopper show.

They'd seen episodes in first three seasons and weren't impressed.

So - I got them to watch The Body. Boy did that impress them.

Then HUSH - which also intrigued them.

Then we did OMWF - and after that they started watching FX to catch up.

Depends on your friend. If she/he doesn't like the high school riff? Don't start with those episodes, start with the ones in College or Season 6. Lots of people I know who wouldn't look at Buffy - started watching big time in Season 6, the high school setting annoyed them too much.

If she/he doesn't know the characters? Don't put them in a middle of one of the arc episodes - too confusing.

Restless would confuse them - I think.
Hush - is easier - it's a stand alone episode.
OMWF is also a stand alone.
So is The Body and if someone needs a slow intro to the fantasy elements - that's a good place to start.

The person I introduced to it - didn't really start liking it until they saw the Body and Hush and some of the later episodes.
[> Re: Help from Buffy fans -- Freki, 12:26:01 10/24/02 Thu

I think I'd try to pick three episodes from the same season. The characters grow and change so much, I think it would be confusing to mix up episodes from different seasons. I'd also try to pick standalone episodes rather than arc-heavy ones, since you're only going to watch three.

With Hush, I'd go with Something Blue and Who Are You. SB is just funny and easy to get into, and sets up Hush. SMG and ED are both great in WAY, but you'd have to explain who Faith is. Wild At Heart would be another option.

With OMWF, I'd show Tabula Rasa and Dead Things. They'd be my picks for the 3 best episodes of S6, and I think they work pretty well as standalones. Maybe Life Serial or OAFA if you don't want the angst level of DT.
The Official "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" Annotation Thread -- Rob, 22:00:41 10/23/02 Wed

It's that time again! If you'll be kind enough to pitch in with your much appreciated annotations for "Out of Mind, Out of Sight," I'll continue workin' like a busy little bee on the "Nightmares" notes-organizing! How cool is this? We only have one ep after this left to go to finish the first season!

Oh, and if ya missed my post announcing "The Puppet Show" (due to the huge flood of "Selfless" posts), it's posted. Click here.

As usual, here are the links you need to know:

Previously Annotated Episodes
Out of Mind, Out of Sight Transcript
E-mail me

So, as usual, please respond to this thread, or e-mail me your annotations. Thanks a billion!

Rob
[> Charles's anntotations -- Charles Phipps, 23:56:44 10/23/02 Wed

[Cordelia: Well, I haven't been elected May Queen yet.]

The May Queen is actually a fun homage since the original May Queens were not only elected because of their beauty and congeniality but were in fact intended as sacrafices; thus Cordellia becoming the May Queen becomes a sacrafice to placate Marci Ross!

[Willow: Well, everyone looked down on him.]

Willow is a very pointful person to bring this up given that she is in herself Jewish and throughout the Seasons she is looked down upon whether by her classmates or in some extent her fellow Scoobies as the weak link in the chain. It is ultimately the very same feeling of being an outcast/helplessness which will drive Willow to embrace magic as a means of gaining a place in the world that will drive her to evil.

In Marcie Ross's case it will do much the same with the similar pattern of being outcast leading to violence against the society that spurned her. The parralel becomes especially strong since in Season Seven Willow actually becomes invisible as well!

[Cordelia: That is such a twinkie defense. Shylock should get over himself. People who think their problems are so huge craze me. Like this time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatizing event of *my* life, and she's trying to make it about *her* leg! Like *my* pain meant nothing.]

The Twinkie Defense was an infamous San Fransisco California legal bit of handiwork where a man claimed that because of his high sugar level that he had been driven to commit murder. The defense actually worked until it was overturned from a higher court. In Cordellia's case she brings up the very real fact abeit with an amazingly bad example that despite Shylock's persecution which is grossly unfair, he is nevertheless without real justice to strike back.

[Buffy: Gee, it's fun that we're speaking in tongues.]

Its a somewhat fun reminder of Sunnydale continuity that Buffy Summers is the odd person out and just as much drawn by the energies of the Hellmouth as any demon. Xander and Willow share a great deal of history with many of the students in Sunnydale High let alone each other that buffy does not. Buffy's comment people are speaking in tongues reminds her that she does not share the same intimacy Xander and Willow do and possibly ever can.

[Xander: Hmm. Greek myths speak of cloaks of invisibility, but they're usually for the gods. (gets looks from everyone) Research Boy comes through with the knowledge!]

Perhaps not, the only known Greek Myth regarding invisibility is about the famous Helmet of Invisibility possesed by the Dark God Hades. Then again Giles's books in the library arn't known for their common interpretations.

[Willow: Xander, do you guys even have a stove?]

Another indication Xander's homelife is on the other side of the tracks is the fact that in no situation does his mother cook despite their lack of funding.

[Buffy: Her only activity was band. She played the flute.]

At least in some places Band is not viewed as the most congenial of sports. It is amusing that Alyson Hannigan would not long after this part play the part of Michelle a Band Geek who played the flue to shatter certain stereotypes.

[Willow: (looks at her printouts) Xander, we each had four classes with her last year.]

Willow and Xander should perhaps not be so surprised at their lack of knowledge regarding her. Despite their place as 'social outcasts' Willow and Xander seem have actually been relatively well liked by all save Cordellia's crew. Before Buffy there was Jesse, Willow is a regular tutor to several divergent people, and while they tend to die off; Xander and Willow have several aquaintences that they either mourn or stand up for throughout the series.

When one has one's own clique, it is hard to introduce new members and they can be intimidating to approach. Buffy is an extraordinary exception as always.

[Willow: Well, the protagonist.]

Another point is Willow has her place as the 'smart one' in the class which can be called upon to give intelligent answers.

[Xander: Why can't he be both? I mean, he did do some things that are pretty heroic.]

Xander: While hardly an Academic Giant Xander has his own easy going style which either draws attention itself by its lack or by its forwardness when he does know.
[> A long list -- KdS, 04:58:18 10/24/02 Thu

Cordelia: (laughs) My eyes are hazel, Helen Keller.
Reference to the famous blind/deaf American child who was taught language by a committed teacher.

Ms. Miller: 'If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?' (looks at the class) Okay. So talk to me, people. How does what Shylock says here about being a Jew relate to our discussion about the anger of the outcast in society?
(and passim)

In many ways this episode is part of the continuing trend since the late '90s of "High School" remakes of classic literature. BtVS comes the closest to direct literary adaptation it has ever come with a supernatural-horror version of Merchant of Venice. Cordelia is Antonio, the privileged figure who has abused the "outsider" (Shylock's "Signor Antonio" speech in Merchant I,3) all her life with no concern for their feelings. Marcie, like Shylock, is driven to deranged and uncondonable vengeance by a string of abuse. Marcie plans to revenge herself on Cordelia with an act of mutilation just as Shylock does Antonio. Marcie's literal invisibility, the consequence of her powerlessness, gives her power over Cordelia. In a similar way Shylock's power over Antonio comes from his role as a moneylender. Jews became moneylenders in early-modern Europe because anti-semitic laws banned them from most occupations. Christians were at this time banned from lending at interest by religious prohibitions, and so passed this necessary but immoral economic function onto the despised outsiders. Both Antonio and Cordelia are rescued by a woman who has little direct connection to them, but is acting through a higher duty.

Buffy: This girl's sorta petty for a god.
Probably not deliberate forshadowing, but little does she know...
Cordelia: (still giving her acceptance speech) Ask not what your school can do for you, ask: Hey! What am I wearing to the Spring Fling?
A misquote of John F Kennedy's famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."
Giles: (hits the table) Of course! (gets up) I've been investigating the mystical causes of invisibility when I, I should have looked at the quantum mechanical! (gets looks from them all) Physics.
Buffy: I think I speak for everyone here when I say, huh?
Giles: (gets a book) It's a rudimentary concept that, that reality is shaped, even, even... created by our perception.
I'll leave it to someone more versed in physics to explain in detail, but this is less quantum physics than the New Age version of it that happens when Arts majors take scientific metaphors too literally ;-)
Cordelia: Well, just because the story's about him, doesn't necessarily mean he's the hero, right?
Ms. Miller: Exactly. So, what do we call him? Willow?
Willow: Well, the protagonist.
Ms. Miller: Xander?
Xander: Why can't he be both? I mean, he did do some things that are pretty heroic.
An early warning that our major characters should not be taken as, or expected to be, perfect role models.
Cordelia: Well, I don't care what it is, just get rid of it!
Buffy: Well, it's not that simple, it's a person, it's...
An early explicit statement of the divide between slayable supernatural creatures and redeemable human villains.
Marcie: (maniacally) I won 'cause you didn't see me coming. Cordelia, you don't remember me. I remember you, all your idiot slut friends, I hate them. They take your life and they suck it out of you!
A rare direct parallel between Cordelia's shallow clique and vampires. An issue that was made very overt in the original film, but little stressed in the TV series, possibly because it was considered morally disproportionate.
Cordelia: If I'm not crowned tonight then, then Marcie's won! And that would be bad. She's evil, okay? Way eviler than me.
This may be reaching, but I get a suggestion that even at this stage Cordelia is a little uncomfortable about her persona - "Way eviller than me" not "i'm not evil".
Cordelia: (stops Buffy) Hey! You think I'm never lonely because I'm so cute and popular? I can be surrounded by people and be completely alone. It's not like any of them really know me. I don't even know if they like me half the time. People just want to be in a popular zone. Sometimes when I talk, everyone's so busy agreeing with me, they don't hear a word I say.
Buffy: Well, if you feel so alone, then why do you work so hard at being popular?
Cordelia: Well, it beats being alone all by yourself.
The humanisation of Cordelia starts here. See also Earshot
Giles: It's gas. (checks the furnace) She's snuffed out the pilot light! The gas is on full! (looks around) I can't find the shutoff valve.
There are two main forms of gas supplied for lighting and heating. "Town gas" is made by incomplete combustion of coal and contains quantities of poisonous carbon monoxide. "Natural gas" is pumped out of oil/gas deposits, is almost pure methane, and is non-toxic. Britain switched to natural gas in the 1970s, so all you need to worry about is explosion rather than getting poisoned. Is California still using town gas or is ME just out of date?
Willow is slouched on the floor, weakened by the lack of oxygen.
It's just about possible that methane (denser than air) might fill up the bottom of a room and reduce oxygen levels in the air. If this is what's actually happening (and in real life it would take quite a long time) on the floor is the worst place for Willow to be.
Buffy: Y'know, I really felt sorry for you. You've suffered. There's one thing I really didn't factor into all this. You're a thundering loony!
As ever, Buffy's compassion has its limits, and they largely involve outright sadism. This ties in to a mildly heated argument Rah and I had about Merchant a few months back, which should still be in the archives. (Essentially, Rah felt that the fact that Shylock is, in the end, villainous makes the play anti-Semitic, and pointed to some specific resonances with early modern anti-Semitic iconography, while I pointed to many modern productions I've seen which were taken by the audience as strongly morally ambiguous).
Teacher: Okay, class, let's get started. Everybody turn to page fifty- four of your texts.
Marcie opens her book and flips through to page fifty-four. The title of chapter eleven reads 'Assassination and Infiltration'.
The first implication that elements of the government are aware of the paranormal, and that their interest is not entirely benevolent. A set-up that would not be fulfilled for over two seasons. If you have a decent "pause" picture quality on your VCR/DVD, or if you've read Keith Topping's Slayer, the actual text of the page reads "radical cult leader as intended victim, August 2nd 19XX" followed by lyrics from the Beatles "Happiness is a Warm Gun". This is probably an oblique reference to the murderous cult leader Charles Manson, who seems to have been inspired by his interpretation of tracks on the Beatles "White Album". I'm unaware if the date August 2nd has any specific Manson significance. There would be far more detailed and explicit Manson references in the characterisation of Adam, and his plans for the world's future, towards the end of S4.
[> [> Natural Gas -- CW, 06:52:03 10/24/02 Thu

Yes, natural gas is very dangerous in poorly ventilated rooms because it is heavier that normal air and because it is explosive when oxygen supplies are limited. Because it is both colorless and odorless, chemicals are added to made it smell bad so that leaks can be detected early and both deaths from asphyxiation and catastrophic explosions avoided. It is not unusual for an isolated depression along a natural gas pipeline to fill with gas from a minor leak. Any source of static electricity natural or manmade can cause a whole valley to explode. (I've heard such an explosion myself from dozens of miles away)
[> [> [> Heh heh...Never thought one of my annotation threads would inspire a post entitled "Natural Gas"! -- Rob, 12:19:47 10/24/02 Thu

Sorry, just feelin' immature at the moment! :p

Rob
[> [> [> [> Sometimes I think I should title all of my posts "Hot Air" -- CW, 17:42:30 10/24/02 Thu

[> Re: The Official "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" Annotation Thread -- Cactus Watcher, 07:23:30 10/24/02 Thu

The first time we notice Marcie it's a reversal of a stereotype. This time we have a girl lurking around the boy's shower room. She is not there to gawk, but to do harm. Later in the ep Xander says that if he could be invisible, "I'd use my powers to protect the girl's locker room."

"Color me self-involved." This is the whole story of Cordy's life. Though she comes to want to help others, even as an ascended, "higher being" in season 4 of Angel she is still whining about being bored and that people aren't paying enough attention to her (don't think she needs to be rescued).

May Queen. Someone else has explained the history of this. But, by the time I was growing up in the 1950's there was a definite social reaction in the US against the kind of vanity portrayed by Cordelia. Someone like her was called derisively "the Queen of the May." I don't have any good references for this, but I know it happened.

"Well, I don't even like chocolates. Okay, that was the lamest comeback of our times." Of course Buffy will say in a later episode, "There is no problem that cannot be solved by chocolate." She will also have a chocolate poster on the door of her college dorm room.
[> Re: The Official "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" Annotation Thread -- ponygirl, 09:12:38 10/24/02 Thu

Hmm, my brain is set on mushy today but I'll give it a shot.

KdS already mentioned Earshot. That seems to be a real bookend to this episode, both dealing with the theme of the lonely, alienated teen. The end message for both seems to be that in getting so wrapped up in your own pain you can't recognize that EVERYONE is in pain. Marcie is trying to teach everyone else to look, listen and learn, but she failed to do the same for Cordelia. Granted Cordelia's pain was buried pretty deep.

Cordelia's campaigning for May Queen would be repeated in Homecoming by both her and Buffy. In Homecoming Buffy tried to offer chocolate cupcakes, but by then Cordie had upped the stakes to gift baskets.

The gap between Buffy's pre-Slayer life and her current status is pretty clear in this episode. In L.A. Buffy was Cordelia, you can see Buffy experiencing a bit of Marcie-style envy. But the difference between the Slayer and Cordelia is that Cordelia is almost always in s1 the victim, the girl who needs rescuing. Buffy is of course the rescuer. With Buffy's loss of status has come true empowerment.

Giles seems rather excited by the possibility of invisibility. Perhaps that is the more adult perspective of seeing disappearing from life as a liberation rather than a punishment. Buffy would come to share this view in Gone.

One of the most interesting statements in this episode is Giles' "reality can be shaped, even created, by our perceptions". This could be applied to the roles and personas that so many of the characters take on or shed over the years. The idea of seeing what you want to see, or expect to see, is something that gets explored in many other episodes.
[> Arrrrgghhhh it's going too fast -- Ete, 13:34:13 10/24/02 Thu

I don't even have the time to read all those great Selfless posts !!!
[> Will post/email annotations in a couple of days -- Rahael, happily busy at work, 15:55:11 10/24/02 Thu

[> [> As always, Rah, I await with bated breath. ;o) -- Rob, 19:11:26 10/24/02 Thu

D'Hoffryn's revenge -- Rufus, 22:14:29 10/23/02 Wed

The situation with vengeance demon recruiting brought to mind cult activity. D'Hoffryn may be a little less than human but he used just about every trick in the book to seduce Anya to his way of thinking. To create a vengeance demon first there must be opportunity.....what better than to seek out those who are emotionally damaged....from Selfless.

The Conversation between Olaf and Aud

Olaf: Aud, Sweet beautiful Aud. I am so hungry I could eat a small child.

Aud: Olaf, are you injured? You smell of blood and musk.

Olaf: Fear not. It takes more than a band of Trolls to bring down the Mighty Olaf.

Aud: Trolls...(she doesnt' seem to be buying his story)

Olaf: Oh, they are wretched creatures indeed. The mere thought of them makes me bend at the knee and flex.

Aud: Sweetheart please sit down. Allow me to tend to you.

Olaf: I am fine, really. I could go for some mead though.

Aud: Certainly.

Olaf: Is it my imagination, or do we have substantially more rabbits in the house today?

Aud: Oh, they breed so quickly that it's ....

Olaf: All this talk of breeding ...it makes me want to breed!

Aud: Honey, of course. But here..drink your mead first.

Olaf: Ah yes Mead.

Aud: The rapid reproductive rate of our rabbits has given me an idea. I can give the excess out to the townspeople, exchanging them NOT for goods or services but for goodwill and the sense of accomplishment that stems from selflessly giving of yourself to others.

Olaf: Ha ha ha....Sweet Aud. Your logic is insane and happenstance, like that of a troll. It is no wonder the bar matrons talk of you.

Aud: You've been to the bar?

Olaf: It is not my fault they don't take kindly to you. You speak your mind and are annoying. It is one of the things I love most about you.

Aud: Was Rannveig there?

Olaf: Bah!!! I've told you a thousand times. I have no interest in this Rannveig. Her hips are large and load bearing, like a Baltic woman. Your hips are narrow, like a baltic woman from a slightly more arid region. You are my perfect Aud. I could never want for another.

Aud: I am sorry. I simply love you so much. I feel as though I could burst at times. I could not live without you.

Olaf: Fear not Sweet Aud, you will always be my beautiful girl.

Anya, or Aud was in love, she wanted nothing more than to make her husband happy. She had invested all of herself into this one man. But where there is great love exists the potential for the opposite to be true. Anya got the attention of D'Hoffryn for the negative display of her "insane troll logic". He came into her life when she had lost her husband to women and drink and had sought out revenge. Anya thought D'Hoffryn was the answer to her need to be needed. She clung onto this perverse father figure with the same intensity that she did Olaf, then Xander. Anya was never herself, she was the extension of someone else.....no wonder she had a made up maiden name...in a sense she doesn't exist beyond the father or the husband.

D'Hoffryn: IMPRESSIVE.

Anya: THANK YOU.

D'Hoffryn: WHAT IS THAT, A WOODLOW
TRANSMOGRIFIC SPELL?

Anya: THORNTON'S HOPE.

D'Hoffryn: THORNTON'S HOPE. BUT HOW DID YOU
GET THE TROLL ELEMENT?

Anya: EELSBANE.

D'Hoffryn: [WHISPERS] Eelsbane! BRILLIANT.
WHAT'D HE DO?

Anya: BAR MATRON. A LOAD-BEARING BAR MATRON.

D'Hoffryn: IS THERE ANY OTHER KIND?
I'M SORRY. HOW RUDE OF ME. ALLOW ME
TO INTRODUCE MYSELF. MY NAME
IS D'HOFFRYN.

Anya: I AM AUD.

D'Hoffryn: ARE YOU?

Anya: HA.

D'Hoffryn: I'M AFRAID YOU DON'T SEE YOUR TRUE SELF.
YOU ARE ANYANKA. I'M A PATRON OF A FAMILY OF SORTS.
WE'RE VENGEANCE DEMONS. I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD OF US.

Anya: NO. I'M SORRY.

D'Hoffryn: OH, WELL, THAT'S QUITE--
NO, DON'T FEEL BAD.

Anya: I, UH...I DON'T TALK TO PEOPLE MUCH.
I MEAN I TALK TO THEM, BUT THEY DON'T TALK TO ME
EXCEPT TO SAY, "YOUR QUESTIONS ARE IRKSOME,"
AND, "PERHAPS YOU SHOULD TAKE YOUR FURS AND
YOUR LITERAL INTERPRETATIONS TO THE OTHER SIDE
OF THE RIVER."
[SHOUTING]

D'Hoffryn: [CHUCKLES] I GET THE SENSE
THAT YOUR TALENTS ARE NOT FULLY APPRECIATED HERE,
ANYANKA. WE'D LIKE YOU TO JOIN US.

Anya: WHY DO YOU KEEP CALLING ME THAT?
MY NAME IS AUD.

D'Hoffryn" PERHAPS. BUT ANYANKA
IS WHO YOU ARE.

Anya: WHAT WOULD I HAVE TO DO?

D'Hoffryn:WHAT YOU DO BEST--HELP WRONGED WOMEN
PUNISH EVIL MEN. [OLAF GROWLING IN BACKGROUND]
[CRASH] VENGEANCE. BUT ONLY TO THOSE WHO DESERVE IT.

Anya: THEY ALL DESERVE IT.

D'Hoffryn: THAT'S WHERE I WAS GOIN' WITH THAT, YEAH.

Not only does D'Hoffryn compliment the emotionally needy Anya but he does so at a time where she feels worthless, humiliated. She turned the man she loved into a Troll because it was somewhat fitting. But it was wrong.

The next thing D'Hoffryn promises Anya is a new family, a family where she would be safe, loved, and given a little something to do to pass the time. That promise of family is a low down sneaky way to get someone to do stuff for you. Anya just didn't have it in her to think of something else but to follow this strange being....join the Family.

So, do loving families go about the world causing pain and grief for others? This one does....and Anya becomes his most devoted daughter....a paragon of Vengeance demons. And the father of Vengeance demons says he loves them all equally but does he love at all?

We see when Anya breaks from the fold, can't be what the father figure wants, exactly what D'Hoffryn is capable of. He hurts, feels rejected by Anya, and wants to make sure she knows who is boss.......

Anya: HALLIE. (Hallie begins to burn, she dies screaming)

D'Hoffryn: WHO DID YOU THINK YOU WERE DEALING WITH?
DID YOU THINK IT WOULD BE THAT EASY TO GET AWAY?

Anya: WHY?

D'Hoffryn: WHY? BECAUSE YOU WISHED IT.

Anya: BUT SHE WAS YOURS.

D'Hoffryn: THE WAY YOU WERE MINE? HAVEN'T I TAUGHT YOU ANYTHING, ANYA? NEVER GO FOR THE KILL WHEN YOU CAN GO FOR THE PAIN. HOLD HIM BACK, SLAYER. WOULDN'T WANT ANYONE TO GET HURT. I'VE GOT PLENTY OF GIRLS.
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE VENGEANCE DEMONS, BUT NOW YOU, ANYA, YOU'RE OUT. CONGRATULATIONS. YOUR WISH IS GRANTED.

Anya: YOU SHOULD HAVE KILLED ME.

D'Hoffryn: [CHUCKLES] OH, I WOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT THAT. FROM BENEATH YOU, IT DEVOURS. BE PATIENT. ALL GOOD THINGS IN TIME.

When D'Hoffryn is rejected he goes for the pain. He goes for something that makes him feel vindicated, who cares that it is one of his "girls" who is killed in the process, cause after all there will always be vengeance demons. He is a demon who is nothing without others to follow him. He is nothing without his children to do his work. As a demon he thinks everyone deserves what they get.....he uses the feelings of abandonment, humiliation, and pain to get others to become demons, hateful distortions of what they once were. There will always be vengeance demons, and this Father knows it......and they are all expendable...I don't see that in any of the warm fuzzy introductions. Vengeance can turn you into a monster a demon.....and he is just the demon to make sure all of us reach his potential. Without people he is nothing.
A Happier Buffy? (maybe spoilers) -- Purple Tulip, 22:45:40 10/23/02 Wed

Is it just me, or is anyone else not seeing the "lighter Buffy" that we were promised this season? I mean, so far, all I've seen of happy have been in the promos, which make each episode look like a hysterical laugh-fest, when really they are just as sad and angsty as last season. Maybe it's just me.
[> A Happier Buffy -- HonorH, 23:09:03 10/23/02 Wed

Yes and no. Yes in that Buffy herself is happier. She's no longer struggling with depression, her relationships with her friends and Dawn are better, if not ideal, and she's got a new job that doesn't leave her feeling like a drudge.

The no comes from the fact that they're still dealing with the fallout from last year. Spike got a soul. Anya became a demon. Willow went off her nut. They have to deal with those things, and they have been, piece by piece. It's hard, but the payoff should be worth it.
[> I've been wondering the same thing. -- Sophie, 06:29:26 10/24/02 Thu

I like this season better than last year, so far. Because I enjoy that they are really digging into complicated issues and examining shades of grey for understanding, which is something TV shows all too often fail to do. For the most part, you have to read a good book to get this sort of digging.

But I agree with you, it doesn't really seem lighter than last season at all. I've been wondering about that, too

Sophie
[> Perhaps she could at least experience the softer side of Sears... -- ZachsMind, 11:36:35 10/24/02 Thu

Sorry. Obscure reference to Cordelia's line in the season one BtVS premiere. My bad. BAD ZACH! BAD!
[> Evidence for a happier Buffy -- Steve, 14:26:56 10/24/02 Thu

I think Buffy's 'ground state' is indeed much happier and relaxed than last season, although she's is still dealing with some angsty issues: Insane!Spike; Probably Rehabed!Willow; Doomed Cassie; and Demon!Anya. However, this angst is based in external factors rather than, as last season, an internal struggle. Season 6 Buffy would never have:

Spun around in her chair balancing a cup of pencils on her face.

Blown off the accusations of negligence from the Apparitions of Victims Past.

Worried about having Mom hair.

Casually referenced her affair with Spike and go so far as to describe him as a "Hottie."

Poked fun at Smelly!Spike.

Trained Dawn.

Enthusistically ask if she could give detention.

Played with Posable!Dawn (and remembered to stick the TV remote in her hand).

In general, smiled or quipped as much as she is now.

Been aware of Xander's feelings enough to bring up the subject of talking to Anya.
[> Re: A Happier Buffy? (maybe spoilers) -- Alvin, 18:49:26 10/24/02 Thu

Well, I haven't heard Dawn whine yet, which has made me happy! Actually, to be serious about it, a large part of her problems last year was her strained relationship with Dawn. I suppose you could say that her problems at home were affecting her work, and vice versa. Now that her sister relationship is on secure footing, she's able to be more relaxed at her job, both as a counseler and as a slayer. Buffy herself is happier even though the show as whole isn't (yet).

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