October 2002 posts
Souls,
who has them? -- Earl
Allison, 04:43:36 10/23/02 Wed
In regards to last night's revelation that Vengeance Demons have
souls -- aside from vampires and Kathy Neuman (S4), has it ever
been said that all demons are soulless?
I thought that most demons DID have souls, that only vampires
were soulless.
Take it and run.
[> "Life and Soul"
Spoiler (sorta) for 7x5 in above and this post -- Off-kilter,
05:37:02 10/23/02 Wed
I wondered the same thing. D'Hoff could've just said "the
life of a vengance demon" was payment due but the wording
pointed out the Soul's significance. Makes me wonder, if Anya
(and all vengance demons) had/has a soul, why was she so impressed
about Spike having one?
[> [> or maybe...
-- tim, 09:58:29 10/23/02 Wed
...only Vengeance Demons have souls because they, unlike other
demons, are made from people. (Side comment: would that make them
the Soylent Green of the demon world?) Vamps aren't really made
from humans in the same way, even though they inhabit a human
body, because the demon takes up residence in the dead frame.
Vengeance Demons remain the living person, just in an Improved
Demon Form.
Anya was impressed with Spike, I would imagine, because no matter
what the rules are for other demons, vampires DON'T have souls
and getting your human one back is supposed to be impossible,
short of a gypsy curse.
--th
Anya Buffy
and the Spider (7.5 spoils) -- neaux, 06:07:12 10/23/02
Wed
Black widow spiders generally live in trash, closets, attics,
woodpiles, garages and other dark places. They are found throughout
California, especially in the warmer regions such as the Central
Valley and Southern California. Only the female spider is dangerous
to humans. -www.calpoison.org
Hmmmm. Was last nites' spider a relative of the Black Widow family?
It looked very similar anyway. But alot bigger of course.. and
it can rip hearts out too.
Is Anya and the Spider directly related? yes. The spider is a
direct manifestation of Anya's pain. Although someone else wished
for the heart extractions, it was Anya's choice for vengeance
and manner of vengeance used. Interestingly, both the spider and
Anya are sliced in their underbelly either by axe or sword and
both are handled in a swift manner by Buffy while Xander tries
to decide the best way to handle the situation. Is it as Buffy
said? She knew this time would come and she had already thought
about what needed to be done. Could Buffy see more clearly than
Xander that Anya's spider was just an extension of Anya. Was Xander
blinded by love? I'll let someone else answer that.
Regardless, the black widow spider as a storytelling device is
known for its cold nature.
(side note) The female spider eating the male after intercourse
is actually a rare occurrence if I read the faq correctly.
Yet mythically speaking, a black widow is often portrayed on screen
as a sexy ladykiller.
Is Buffy and the Spider connected as well? Well Buffy was definately
a cold killer last nite and definately dressed in black. And although
Anya tried to be the cold and heartless one, she was the one who
was willing to sacrifice herself to reverse her wish.
So who best represents the Spider? Anya or Buffy.
here's a better question: Through the eyes of Xander, who best
represents the Spider?
[> Re: Anya Buffy and the
Spider (7.5 spoils) -- ponygirl, 06:38:34 10/23/02 Wed
This is the second spider reference in a row. Last week we had
the graffiti kid putting "Spider" on the wall. I keep
thinking about the Little Miss Muffet rhyme - "along came
a spider and sat down beside her and frightened Miss Muffet away".
Miss Muffet was mentioned in Faith's dream in Graduation Day,
it was supposed to be a foreshadowing of Dawn. No real connections
yet, but I wonder if something is being hinted at.
[> [> Now you have me
thinking of that animatronic spider from "IT" --
neaux, 06:47:16 10/23/02 Wed
[> Anya - the price to be
paid for humanity. -- Caroline, 11:00:48 10/23/02 Wed
Excellent stuff. I agree that Buffy was the spider - she was ripping
out Xander's heart by trying to kill Anya - sword through the
heart. I really loved Anya in this episode - she behaved more
like Billy Pilgrim and Cassie in her last scene - she willingly
accepts her death as the price she must pay for her humanity.
It also fits with the Poe reference in this episode - one cannot
attack with impunity - everything has consequences.
That old linguistics
thing (spoilers for Selfless) -- Cactus Watcher, 06:28:36
10/23/02 Wed
I know a little Norwegian, and Swedish is close enough to Norwegian
that I could tell Olaf was indeed speaking at least something
like Swedish. Anya was just babbling occasionally, but you can't
blame Emma. She must have had an extremely busy week what with
getting the song and dance right. (Did any one else instantly
feel when they heard the new 'mustard song,' "Darn I wish
that was on the OMWF CD"?)
Interesting note - the name of the village was Sjornjost. Unless
I'm really off-base that means 'cottage-cheese.' I don't know
of any connection to the 'curds-and-whey' of season 5, but it
is a continuation of the dairy joke that's been around since the
beginning of season 4.
Someone already mentioned about Aud and d'Hoffryn speaking 'English,'
and someone else pointed out that we don't need to take that too
literally. I think the change in language does show there has
been a dramatic change in Aud. Incidentally, Olaf's Swedish gets
really bad after he changes into the troll. He says "I Olaf"
not "I am Olaf" as if he's not speaking Swedish, but
Russian. The word 'I' is the same in both languages. Further his
last line "Du aar detska laska!" (translated on screen
as 'you are a child's toy')I believe is a cross between Swedish
and something slavic. The first two words are definitely not slavic,
but Swedish. The last two words don't seem to mean anything in
Scandanavian languages. But, I do see where someone might think
the last two words might mean child's toy in slavic. The 'detska'
would be 'child's' in oldish slavic something or other of 880.
The true common meaning of the word 'laska' is 'caress.' But,
'laska' can refer to 'toying with someone' not a 'toy.' So I'm
guessing that the change in Anya is obvious from her speech and
not quite so obvious in Olaf from his. He is still trying to speak
Swedish.
Changing gears, several people have mentioned 'cold-hearted' Buffy
talking about killing Anya. I thought her attitude was fairly
understandable. It was interesting that she chose to fib about
what she did to Angel. She didn't kill Angel by stabbing with
the sword. She knew at the time it wouldn't kill him, but doom
him to a hell dimension. So neither side is being 100% truthful
and dispassionate in the heat of the argument. It's how real people
argue.
[> How nice to have someplace
where someone knows stuff like this. -- Lilac, 07:13:37
10/23/02 Wed
[> Re: That old linguistics
thing (spoilers for Selfless) -- aliera, 07:28:12 10/23/02
Wed
Interesting. The most common translation I found for Aud was "quiet"!
from the Old Norse. I was actually confused by the way her name
was pronounced since my familiarity is more with Icelandic in
which I'm used to hearing "Au" as "UR" as
in Audur (Ur thur). Also, stray thought, I wondered about the
"Baltic" mention. Thanks for the info CW.
[> [> Re: That old linguistics
thing (spoilers for Selfless) -- CW, 07:45:57 10/23/02
Wed
The baltic coast is close enough to Sweden to be reachable by
boat, so Olaf could have been there. (880 is late enough for viking
journeys) And it's far enough away to seem exotic both in language
and culture. I thought it was just a nice touch.
[> [> [> LOL. No doubt!
-- aliera, 10:07:30 10/23/02 Wed
[> That old linguistics
thing (spoilers for Selfless) addendum -- CW, 08:44:06
10/23/02 Wed
Something that I forgot this morning that was bothering me last
night. I know what a barkeep is. I know what a bar maid is. I
know what a bar patron is. But what the hell is a 'bar matron?'
Someone who takes care of the children at a bar?
[> [> Well... --
Masq, 09:01:40 10/23/02 Wed
A bar maid is presumably unmarried. A bar matron would be a female
employee of a bar who is married, and who may in fact be the wife
of the bar owner.
[> [> [> Re: Well...
-- CW, 09:47:33 10/23/02 Wed
That was the problem. I couldn't figure out whether they meant
a female employee/owner or a female customer. In any case, 'matron'
was a bad choice of words.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Well... -- newlurker, 10:02:15 10/23/02 Wed
I took the subtitling (in part) to be a comic reference to foreign
film subtitle translations (by folks who are not native English
speakers) which inevitably give literal translations that can
be quite humorous. We weren't watching Anyanka's memories of being
Aud, we were watching a foreign film depicting those events. When
Anyanka and D'Hoffryn were speaking, then we were seeing (in full
color) Anyanka's memories.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Well... -- CW, 10:40:04 10/23/02 Wed
My favorite was giving the subtitle for "Ha, ha, ha."
Heart, Spirit,
Mind and Hands spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- shadowkat, 09:35:01
10/23/02 Wed
Okay I wasn't going to post yet...because I usually change my
mind about an episode a few days after I've seen it and get really
embarassed about the posts I make based on knee-jerk reactions.
But after reading the board this morning - I thought what the
heck. Maybe you guys can help me make sense of my thoughts. Apologize
ahead of time for the rambly nature of them - this is by no means
a well thought essay -it's more of a first impression gut reaction
post.
First off I really loved last night's episode. Except for the
spider bit which I can't watch. I have a spider phobia. Absolutely
terrified of them. Though my mother said it didn't really look
much like a spider to her. So I hid my eyes or retreated to go
to the bathroom while the spider was on. May see it on a rewatching.
Outside of that? My favorite episode next to Beneath You this
year. Actually I think I liked it better than Beneath You - almost
cried. Didn't. Takes a lot to get me to cry. Only The Body does
that to me.
At any rate...I think this is a hard episode to discuss without
people sounding like they are bashing Buffy, b/c I really think
the writers are doing something interesting with Buffy this year
- something that is truly challenging the actress who plays her.
(So no bashing or flaming or over-reacting, okay?)
In case you haven't noticed? The imagery this year is all about
heart.
Last year it was all about Spirit. The year before all about Mind.
(Glory and the mind sucking and the mother dying of brain hemmorage
and the whole out of my mind stuff?)Giles leaves at the end of
the mind arc. Willow goes batty at the end of the Spirit arc.
(The whole Spirtual energy becoming dark energy and the rape of
the spirit, and the feeling of being disconnected...and bringing
Buffy's spirit back and the ghost attacking everyone.) Now Xander...who
gave up his heart last year but used it to save the world.
And of course the story is Buffy's journey. The first part of
her journey concludes with Graduation Day Part II - where she
ascends to next level.
In Season 4 - we examine each of the themes that will be covered
over the next three year period. Ending in Primeval - showing
that only whole - Buffy is completely powerful: heart, mind, spirit,
and hands.
Then in Restless - each segment is examined in the SG's nightmares
- forshadowing future events and themes. Then afterwards each
season focuses on one of each with elements of the others enfolded
within it.
1. Season 5 - is about the mind, the attachements it makes, it's
sickness, and how it can be destroyed and become literally chaotic
- also shows the effect of the sick mind on the other parts. And
how we must rise above. Buffy's spirit figures out she must sacrifice
herself and Willow's spirit heals Tara's mind. It's the spirit
saves the day.
2. Season 6 - is about the spirit, the attachements it makes,
it's sickness, and it can be destroyed and go chaotic - also shows
the effects of the troubled spirit on the heart, mind and hands.
At the end of Season 6 it is the words of love from the heart
that save the spirit. Xander's love saves Willow. Spike's love
for Buffy is what makes him go reclaim his soul - save his spirit.
Dawn's love brings Buffy's spirit out of the grave.
3. Season 7 is all about heart - how a sick heart can hurt the
mind, spirit, hands. What would we do without the heart. The heart
is what connects all the parts of the body, it is what makes it
possible for the brain to function, the hands to move via circulation
and it's where our souls reside. The heart is the metaphorical
center of our emotions.
With no heart? We aren't motivated. A heartless Buffy is just
a killer. Right and wrong become black and white she can't distinquish
them. "I am the LAw!" - the law can often be heartless.
The law, as most lawyers know is often merciless. The law does
NOT forgive - it enacts punishment.
The hellmouth is the heart of evil. Who we are - is truly who
we are at heart, right? If you didn't know this season was about
heart? You found out with the imagery in tonight's episode - all
those torn out hearts. Or last weeks' episode - Cassie's heart
failure. Or the slayers killed by a sword to the heart. Or the
stakes in the vamps hearts in Lessons and Help. Until Buffy finds
her heart again - she won't be able to beat the problem. Without
a heart - the world is black and white, two dimensional?
Who is important to Buffy's heart? We have Xander, he's the heart
of the SG and they've been showing that throughout the episodes
- center in B/X/D,
central to getting school rebuilt over the heart of darkness.
Xander's co-hart - is Spike. I agree with, I believe it was Rah
who said Spike and Xander have some important and interesting
similarities. And as Willow was the one who had to forgive and
help Anya. Xander will probably be the one who will have to forgive
and help Spike rebuild his heart - his soul lives in his heart.
Through the heart we forgive. If heartless we cannot forgive.
Mercy comes from our heart.
So is Buffy heartless right now? yeah, but just as she was soulless
in Season 6 and confused in Season 5...each is being explored
in her journey. And at the same time they are exploring it in
Angel's - we see heart imagery in Ats
this year as well.
I think the writers are deliberately making Buffy seem heartless
- just as last year she seemed disconnected or lack of spirit
and the year before confused in the mind.
I also think the thing beneath is the heart of evil.
Finally, a note on Becoming - did anyone else notice that they
referred to it? And wonder why? In Becoming - the characters flipped
and the show changed forever:
Xander - lied to Buffy and showed his hatred of Angel (lack of
mercy? or heart)
Willow - went to dark magic to curse Angel with a soul and trusted
heartless Xander to relay this message to Buffy? In doing so,
her spirit was taken over briefly by something else.
(Don't know about heartless...just bear with me.)
Giles - mind was played with by Angel to get the goods on Acathula
(loss of mind)
Spike - turned against his evil nature and went with his heart
to help Buffy save the world and get Dru back.
Angel - regained his soul but at the loss of his heart and mind
when he was sent to hell.
Buffy - lost mind, spirit, and heart and became the hands to send
Angel to hell and went there herself - to be reborn, a little
harder than before, but still compassionate via Lily (later Anne)
Joyce - gained spirit, mind, heart and hands in learning and accepting
who buffy is. Yet dies three years later of a brain clot - which
may be due to heart and brain illness?
So am I overanalyzing? Am I off my rocker? (My mother thought
so last night, when I babbled this to her over the phone long
distance (sigh)...telling me that Buffy gave Spike what he needed,
telling him to take action and did what she had to as town sheriff
buffy and I'm letting work-related anxiety destroy my brain, heart,
spirit ...perhaps she's right?)
Thoughts? Arguements? Agreements? Am I nuts?
SK (now going back to work to check back later...just
think next new Btvs episode, I'll be out of this job
and no more crazy posts.)
[> I agree -- alcibiades,
10:06:09 10/23/02 Wed
I agree. I think that ME wants us to find something deeply wrong
with Buffy and have that trouble us.
This Buffy of this show made me long for an earlier Buffy -- Season
5 Buffy, or Season 4 Buffy or Season 2 or 3 Buffy. Okay not season
6 Buffy but that Buffy still had something wrong with her heart
-- it just wasn't being explored.
But I think we were supposed to have this feeling about Buffy.
Buffy here is clearly wrong. We are supposed to realize this.
I think that Dyna nailed it exactly right when she talked about
Buffy's fear of heart failure -- that her heart wasn't right.
Angel is clearly on Buffy's mind this year, so much so that she
blurts out her anger at her friends for cheering her on to the
thing that has been so hurtful to her for years she has never
discussed it and indeed, she walled it up in her heart and never
let it out.
Spike has been forcing Buffy to confront Angel and what happened.
I had been assuming that Buffy knew that Spike wasn't cursed with
a soul -- but he never told her so much -- he just said he went
out and got it -- Now I wonder if unconsciously or consciously
she is worried about what would cause him to lose his soul.
I also noticed the fact that with her heart out of whack in this
episode, Buffy takes a hands on approach to the problem of Anya.
Since her great gift for love isn't working, she relies on the
thing she does best -- use her hands to go for the weapons.
But in some situations -- clearly last year with Darth Willow
and here too -- it's entirely the wrong approach. And indeed,
it could lead to tragic consequences -- as it almost did last
night. With such a lack of prescience, heart failure Buffy is
not going to be able to win her big battles this year.
She's got to retrench and let her heart out of the walls she has
made for it.
We also see Buffy has been harboring anger at Xander and Willow
for years over their role in Angel's death. It's not really a
stretch to believe she's harboring anger at Spike for it too,
because he gave her the means to make it happen with his turning.
[> [> Re: I agree
-- CW, 10:26:57 10/23/02 Wed
I don't think Buffy is 'clearly wrong.' Many died, including Jenny
because Buffy put off dealing with Angelus. Buffy remembers this.
It's not about Buffy being right or wrong, because she can't know
what will happen good or bad resulting from what she must do.
She had to make a decision what to do and since Anyanka was getting
rapidly more destructive, something had to be done. Buffy, like
the law, can't always make allowances for circumstances. Buffy
isn't wrong. She's just toward a more unpleasant place in the
gray area.
[> [> [> Re: I agree
-- alcibiades, 11:05:05 10/23/02 Wed
Buffy let days go by before she dealt with Angelus. Here we see
that she knows Xander is trying for a solution by dealing with
Anya directly and she allows him what -- all of 90 seconds to
talk before she begins to slay.
It's not about Buffy being right or wrong,
Yeah you are right, it's not about right, it's not about wrong,
it's about power. And in this context that is very very troubling.
Because Buffy's final solution for dealing with Anyaka turned
out to be dead wrong.
[> [> [> [> Re:
I agree -- Rahael, 11:56:43 10/23/02 Wed
Date Posted: 11:08:39 10/23/02 Wed
Author: Rahael
Subject: Anya's been a vengeance demon for the whole summer...
In reply to: alcibiades 's message, "Re: I agree" on
11:08:39 10/23/02 Wed
and hasn't she been granting 'wishes' all this time?
Author: alcibiades
Subject: More on Anya
In reply to: Rahael 's message, "Anya's been a vengeance
demon for the whole summer..." on 11:15:57 10/23/02 Wed
And she is also at the breaking point right now. Which both Xander
and Willow knew. But Buffy didn't care about.
Angelus was never at the breaking point.
Isn't it better to redeem Anya than to kill her.
Date Posted: 11:39:43 10/23/02 Wed
Author: Rahael
Subject: Re: More on Anya (Spoilers, "Helpless")
In reply to: alcibiades 's message, "More on Anya" on
11:39:43 10/23/02 Wed
Well, I've never been big on having other people come 'redeem'
others. If that term has to have any real meaning, you do it yourself.
You face your *choices*, the ones you made, and you have to have
the courage to change.
After Grave, Anya was probably my favourite character in BtVS.
But ripping out people's hearts? I'm not about to excuse it just
because I like the character! And I think her decision at the
end of Selfless was a fine one. She redeemed herself.
Anyway, I've always been interested in the theme of 'trial' 'justice'
'vengeance' that has been present from the latter half of Season
6. Isn't it interesting that Buffy uses the word 'law' and Anya's
all about 'vengeance'. What is the middle way, what should be
the heart of law? It should be justice. Is trying to kill Anya
a 'just' thing to do? I don't think so. But I can't make up my
mind about all the Buffy as the big bad posts until I actually
see the eps.
As for Willow? It would take a massive act of hypocrisy on her
part not to be empathetic toward Anya. (Yeah, Buffy kill Anya,
even though she isn't trying to end the world. Unlike me).
Yes, Angelus was never at the breaking point - but Buffy must
have known that Angel was trapped inside. Hence Angelus' repeated
taunts "you're boyfriend's gone for good".
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I agree -- alcibiades, 12:55:03 10/23/02 Wed
Loose use of language on my part. I meant isn't it better to help
Anya redeem herself -- ultimately redemption has got to be self
motivated.
I'm not excusing Anya's behavior -- what she did was terrible.
But she knew it.
I just think there was a more productive way of dealing with her
than killing her.
[> [> [> [> Buffy
let time go by before dealing with Angelus-- -- HonorH, 11:24:56
10/24/02 Thu
Time in which people died. Time in which people Buffy liked and
others loved died. She most likely feels that their deaths were
on her head for not killing Angelus when she had the chance. Angel
taught Buffy hard lessons, and she's trying to put them into practice
as best she knows how. Perhaps her solution to the Anyanka problem
wasn't the best one, but it was a solution. She couldn't let Anyanka
go on killing if she could stop it--and the Slayer's solution
is the one Buffy was best suited to.
[> [> [> [> [>
Applying the wrong LESSONS -- alcibiades, 13:15:59 10/24/02
Thu
and the Slayer's solution is the one Buffy was best suited
to
There is where I am disagreeing.
Buffy's solution was best arrived at with her friends. Not in
isolation in the persona of the avenging slayer.
The fact that Willow was able to come up with a better solution
which worked out and that Xander saw that another solution was
emotionally feasible, means that Buffy's solution was not the
best solution available to her at that point in time.
It was the best solution she could arrive at alone in her current
mindset. But not the best solution she could arrive at.
The fact that Buffy is not able to get past the trauma of Angelus
and that she applied that lesson to a completely different being
-- since recent Anya was nothing like Angelus at any point --
tells us more about Buffy than anything else.
But as I have said in other posts, it is quite remarkable and
I believe even scary that Willow felt she had to work behind Buffy's
back for the just solution -- that Willow felt that she would
not be able to get Buffy to heed her point of view -- and Willow's
POV, not Buffy's ended up being the best one.
And if Buffy had bothered to have a human conversation with Anya
at any point during the summer -- to check up on her, out of personal
friendship as well as to see where she was recently -- the way
Willow had, Buffy would have known that Anya was feeling the self
loathing and not loving being a vengeance demon.
But keeping herself uninformed and then applying two wrong LESSONS
-- the one she learned from Angelus and the one she learned from
Cassie - that sometimes you can't help -- was not the way to go.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Well, maybe Willow should have TOLD Buffy about her plan.
-- Finn Mac Cool, 13:47:07 10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Disagreeing on one point. -- HonorH, 13:53:09
10/24/02 Thu
I don't think Willow felt she had to work behind Buffy's back.
Buffy clearly wanted another solution. Willow stayed behind, and
then seemed to hit upon an alternative. She offered very little
during the heated argument between Xander and Buffy, and certainly
didn't try to talk Buffy out of killing Anya. She didn't say,
"Look, I've got an idea that may be really bad, but it's
worth a try." If she had, I think Buffy would've listened.
Buffy didn't *want* to kill Anya, as she said. There's nothing
to suggest Buffy would've refused to listen to Willow, or that
Willow was afraid of Buffy's response to her suggestions.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Agree about Willow, HonorH -- Scroll, 14:14:21
10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> good point -- Vickie, 22:45:37 10/24/02
Thu
I can just see it.
Willow: I have an idea that may be really bad, but might work.
I just have to use an amulet and some chanting to summon the chief
vengeance demon and ...
Buffy: Wait a sec--what's with all the magicks? I thought you
were over that. Do I have to worry about you too?
I don't think so. Buffy would have been all over the d'Hoffryn
summoning. Not approving. squashing.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> The tipping point -- Sophist, 14:44:32 10/24/02
Thu
I can't agree with you about Buffy's thought process or about
her actions.
Take the latter first. Yes, it's true that Anya had expressed
reservations to both Willow and Xander. However, when Willow approached
her after seeing the deaths at the fraternity, Anya was still
refusing to change. Something else had to happen in order
to move Anya from her internal conflict to a firm decision. That
"something else" was provided by Buffy's apparent resolution
to intervene with extreme prejudice. Of course, if Anya had not
been willing to change, Buffy would have had to follow through
on her duty, and she had to have the mindset that prepared her
for that eventuality.
I say apparent, because I think you've misinterpreted Buffy's
mental state. For one thing, I don't agree that Willow felt she
was going "behind Buffy's back". Willow had no reason
to believe that Buffy would be unhappy if Anya reversed the spell.
In the living room conversation, Buffy expressly approved what
Willow had done.
For another, Buffy could not convince Anya of her seriousness
if she did not first convince Xander and Willow. I believe Buffy
recognized the options; she let Xander go first and she said nothing
when Willow declined to come along (recognizing, I think, some
obvious personal issues there). She also took a sword which she
knew could not kill Anyanka. But neither could she let the situation
remain unresolved -- there were a dozen deaths at stake. Anya
had to be moved and moved now. That limited Buffy's flexibility
and forced her to act as she did.
I saw her behavior as similar to Kennedy's in the Cuban Missle
crisis. She had to put on the strong show in order to create the
conditions for compromise later.
She is the Slayer. She does have to make the hard
decisions; the posts by Anne and fresne are convincing here. But
damn, it's lonely to be in that position.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Agree totally, Sophist! -- HonorH, 15:53:03
10/24/02 Thu
Wow. Your posts are always worth reading, but I think this is
the first time I've ever agreed with every single word of one.
But hey--disagreement is good. That being said, I interpreted
the scene very close to how you did, but I think you took it a
logical step further.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Thanks. -- Sophist, 08:46:30 10/26/02
Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: The tipping point -- alcibiades, 16:49:25
10/24/02 Thu
For another, Buffy could not convince Anya of her seriousness
if she did not first convince Xander and Willow. I believe Buffy
recognized the options; she let Xander go first and she said nothing
when Willow declined to come along (recognizing, I think, some
obvious personal issues there). She also took a sword which she
knew could not kill Anyanka.
Okay, the sword could kill Anya -- what could not kill Anya was
thrusting it through her heart. So Buffy had a lethal weapon there.
But neither could she let the situation remain unresolved --
there were a dozen deaths at stake.
I agree with that. I just think Buffy had not explored all the
options.
Anya had to be moved and moved now. That limited Buffy's flexibility
and forced her to act as she did.
...She had to put on the strong show in order to create the conditions
for compromise later.
But Buffy had no idea what Willow was planning on doing.
It is possible the good cop, bad cop scenario that Buffy set up
might have worked, but they did not show that. Like Spike mis-reacting
to black-leather clad Buffy in the basement, I don't think Anya
would have compromised. I think she would have used Buffy as a
way to kill herself -- because she didn't like her choices. That
was what she was in the middle of doing before D'Hofryn appeared.
Not the optimum solution.
Willow had the correct solution -- but she either feels too uncomfortable
in front of Buffy to tell her she was going to use a magical solution
- Buffy is still very uneasy about that or quite possibly, the
solution only emerged for Willow in course of the discussion.
She saw where Buffy was heading -- that Buffy did not give Xander
time to try his plan, but followed him right out the door. She
also saw how much damage the situation with Angel caused Buffy
and didn't want a repeat, nor did she want the possibly permanent
fracture that would have developed among the Scoobies once Buffy
killed Anya.
I think the correct solution -- strangely enough -- was what D'hofryn
did -- of all of them, he was the only one to ask Anya what she
wanted -- everyone else was demanding she change. That strategy
doesn't work well with quite a lot of people -- it results in
the opposite from happening.
Moreover, I think Willow is the hero of Selfless.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: The tipping point -- acesgirl, 17:59:20
10/24/02 Thu
"Willow had the correct solution -- but she either feels
too uncomfortable in front of Buffy to tell her she was going
to use a magical solution - Buffy is still very uneasy about that
or quite possibly, the solution only emerged for Willow in course
of the discussion."
Or, how about a third option? It didn't occur to Willow until
after the discussion as she's sitting alone in the living room
having just watched Xander and Buffy run off to deal with Anyanka.
She can't go with Buffy, she's far too conflicted, but she can't
just sit there and do nothing. So, aha! she remembers the amulet(or
whatever that thing was) to summon D'Hoffryn. She can't tell Buffy
that she has another idea because Buffy wasn't there when it occured
to her. I'm not sure that I understand what Willow's motives would
be for keeping her idea from Buffy, if indeed, she had come up
with it before Buffy left. Buffy wanted another option, really
she did. Unfortunately, she was resigned to that fact that there
might not be one. JMO, of course.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Anya is the hero of "Selfless"
-- HonorH, 18:04:51 10/24/02 Thu
Willow summoned D'Hoffryn, but we didn't get their conversation.
All we know is what D'Hoffryn says: that Miss Rosenberg apparently
thinks Anya's better off outside the vengeance fold. So it's entirely
possible Willow simply argued with him, saying Anya's heart wasn't
in it and he should let her go. If so, Willow *didn't* directly
come up with the solution to the problem. Xander's solution ("Run,
Anya, run!") didn't work. Buffy's solution didn't work. Anya,
by offering herself as a sacrifice, was ultimately her own hero.
Her plea was what D'Hoffryn responded to--not Buffy or Xander's
threats, and not Willow's arguments.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Anya is the hero of "Selfless"
-- alcibiades, 18:26:30 10/24/02 Thu
True. Anya had to be in the right place emotionally to do what
she did. Which was pretty amazing.
But Anya was about to commit passive suicide by Buffy in that
scenario until the option provided by Willow came into play.
OTOH, let's hope Willow didn't have to pay for that deal in some
surreptitious way that will be horrible later on. She may well
have. otoh, D'hoffryn still have hopes for Willow, so he may have
played along with her plan, sensing he was losing Anya in any
case, one way or another.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya is the hero of "Selfless"
-- alcibiades, 18:48:12 10/24/02 Thu
I guess I'm reluctant to call Anya the hero of Selfless because
after all she did kill 10-12 people that day. Even if she was
ready to take it back at the cost of her life -- I don't feel
comfortable calling that heroism. I think she became the actor
in her own life finally, but I'm uncomfortable calling her heroic.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, remember-- --
HonorH, 18:54:03 10/24/02 Thu
A "hero," in the classical sense, is the protagonist.
Therefore, MacBeth, while not doing anything especially heroic,
is still considered the hero of his eponymous play. Anya was certainly
the center of this episode, and she is the one who truly took
control and faced what she was and what she wanted to be.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Intriguing idea! -- HonorH,
18:50:10 10/24/02 Thu
I'd hope that Willow wouldn't bargain with a dark power, but it
is hard to say. With demons, you never know how your most innocent
utterance will be taken. Were that the case, though, I'm sure
we'd have seen more of the conversation. And I doubt, btw, that
the final disposition of Anya's "problem" was precisely
what Willow had intended. My guess is that Buffy's going to have
to do some reassuring that it's not Willow's fault.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: The tipping point -- Sophist, 21:31:50
10/24/02 Thu
I agree with acesgirl about Willow and her actions. I don't believe
she had the idea until she returned to the bedroom. No way to
prove that, of course.
what could not kill Anya was thrusting it through her heart.
I don't know if, say, decapitation would work. Neither does Buffy.
The fact that she struck a blow which she knew could not
kill is further evidence of her intent.
I don't think Anya would have compromised. I think she would
have used Buffy as a way to kill herself.
Entirely possible. Unfortunately, the deaths of the students forced
the issue. Buffy had to make Anya decide now. It might have worked
badly, but Buffy did quite a lot to make it work well.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> More on Willow's role -- Sophist, 08:38:45
10/26/02 Sat
I re-watched the episode last night. After Buffy leaves
the house, the camera pans back to Willow, who is still in the
chair. You can see the look come over her face: "OOOH! I
have an idea." She wasn't hiding it from Buffy; she just
didn't think of it until Buffy had gone.
Would Buffy have disapproved of Willow summoning D'Hoffryn? I
doubt it. It's clear to me that Buffy did not want to kill Anya
at all (see Sang's post in the thread a little ways up and several
others as well). I think she would have welcomed both the generosity
of spirit shown by Willow and the relatively minor use of magic
involved.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Hmmm..i agree with parts of everyones posts
-- shadowkat, 07:41:23 10/25/02 Fri
First as stated in another post below - the redemption one, I
re-watched Selfless last night and changed my mind about a few
things.
Sophist, Anne, fresne and HonorH are right in their defense of
Buffy. (But not completely - they are slightly off on the other
characters - for some reason when we defend one, we sort of tear
another down a bit...not that I'm saying you guys did...bear with
me.)
Buffy isn't heartless in this episode (although we are supposed
to see it - since that is how Xander,Willow see her.)
Spike gives us a clue about this confusion and about Anya's.
Anya is washing her hands - trying to get the blood off
and looks at her face in the mirror as she is doing so we hear
Spike's voice over: "I can't always trust what I see."
Then we see two Buffy's - white and black, Counselor and Judge.
This in Spike's POV remember. He doesn't know which one is real
at this point - he said as much earlier - so when Judge appears
he starts laughing "of course, my mind is playing tricks
again - you aren't real " hence the
"can't hear you can't hear you." Part of him isn't sure
she's not the Big Bad.
I rewound this scene several times last night and realized something.
First Judge Buffy isn't a judge - it's Buffy, poor frustrated,
desperate Buffy who wants to help the vampire friend in the basement.
And isn't sure how.
But we see Judge Buffy, because we are in Spike's head at the
time. Don't believe the pov. I know she's real because she's wearing
same black clothing later. But Spike doesn't.
Now remember these words: "I can't trust what I see."
Anya is at a place right now in her life where she can't trust
herself. What once felt right is wrong. What once felt wrong is
right. What is up? What is down? She doesn't know. Halfrek is
telling her that vengeance is right and is congratulating her,
but Anya is saying it didn't feel the same and why does she feel...so
(bad). She leaves this blank. Halfrek asks if she's okay...over
and over again.
Before Willow appears. Willow tells Anya what she did was wrong
and horrible and she has to stop it before it's too late.
(It's interesting that Willow sent Buffy and Xander off to deal
with Anya alone. And I think Buff's read of Will is the correct
one here. Also Will did it because Will knew what Anya was going
through and knew Buffy couldn't help just as she told Buffy in
STSP - you have to put the world first.)
Anya is torn. She's always gone with what comes along. And up
until now - she didn't realize how horrible the consequences can
be. Perhaps she's finally found empathy?
Buffy is also torn in this episode. From Xander's pov, Buffy made
the decision in ten minutes. Buffy is heartless.
From Willow's pov, Buffy is playing favorites and gave her a free
get out of jail card. But put yourself in Buffy's pov. Buffy has
known Anyanka was a vengeance demon for close to 6 months. She
has thought long and hard about it.
She shows this in the opening sequence with Xander and Dawn.
Xander shrugs the vengeance thingy off...Buffy doesn't.
Willow even does to some extent in her confrontation with Anyanka
- when Anyanka says - I'm a vengeance demon - you forget that.
Buffy alone seems to appreciate the amount of bloodshed Anyanka
has caused.
Xander's statement about mass murdering demons is ironically funny
when you see the hypocrisey of it. Anyanka has probably killed
more people than Spike or Angelus has.
She's been around for 1200 years and apparently started the Russian
Revolution - which well was responsible for quite a few deaths.
And she's clearly used spider demons before. "I forgot how
much damage they can do." Or remember The Wish?
Xander refuses to see this. And his hypocrisey is telling and
a weakness of his heart.
Remember Buffy is Town Sheriff - she is the law in these here
demon parts. And boy does she hate her job.
She's almost in tears in that arguement and her eyes are wet in
the scene with Anyanka. Anyanka does the quips not really Buffy.
Anyanka - I believe does want to die.
She wants it to end.
But D'Hoffryn cruely/wisely refuses her wish - be careful what
you wish for. Anyanka after all just wished "I wish to have
the death of the body and soul of vengeance demon in order to
restore the lives of the 12".
Is Willow the hero? No. (Sophist and HH are right here)
Is Anya the hero? No. (alcibades is right)
There are no heros here. Just people struggling to find their
path. Figure out who they are at heart.
Is Buffy heartless here? No, but it might appear that way if you
are Xander or Willow. Buffy is trying to play two roles, Counselor
by day/Judge by night and the roles are beginning to wear on her.
Is she defined solely by them?
I think (not positive) the flaw in everyone's arguments - is the
tendency to view the show through one character's pov. Try to
pull out of that....and you'll suddenly see a flip side.
And remember Spike's words: "I can no longer trust what I
see." I think ME's trying to give us a clue here.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Seeing things (spoilers up to current
eps.) -- ponygirl, 08:27:33 10/25/02 Fri
"And remember Spike's words: "I can no longer trust
what I see." I think ME's trying to give us a clue here."
Yes, and D'Hoffryn's comments about Xander's seeing with the eyes
of love, while Buffy goes straight for the sword. Blood Ties was
on Space the other night and I was struck by Glory's line in response
to Dawn's question about whether the Key was evil. She said it
depended on your perspective. I think we're seeing the gap between
the different perspectives of the characters on the show. People
are seeing only parts of the picture, they aren't able to step
outside themselves and see with the eyes of another. Perhaps this
was illustrated most dramatically by STSP where the Scoobies could
be in the same place but literally not exist depending on the
pov. My spec is that this is going to get worse before it gets
better, that the difficulty in appreciating another's perspective
is going to lead to major mistakes.
I wonder to what we, the audience, are supposed to be seeing.
Hellmouth, First Evil, cold!Buffy -- are we seeing what we want
to see? And missing something in the process?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Great balanced pov, as usual, s'kat.
-- HonorH, 10:10:55 10/25/02 Fri
I certainly wasn't trying to tear any of the other characters
down in my posts. Just wanted to point out that while each one
of them had a separate solution to the Anyanka problem, in the
end, only Anya could save herself--even by death, which she sought
out with both Buffy and D'Hoffryn.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> What Buffy learned from Giles -- Malandanza,
13:19:53 10/25/02 Fri
"I say apparent, because I think you've misinterpreted
Buffy's mental state. For one thing, I don't agree that Willow
felt she was going "behind Buffy's back". Willow had
no reason to believe that Buffy would be unhappy if Anya reversed
the spell. In the living room conversation, Buffy expressly approved
what Willow had done."
I do think that Buffy would have preferred a scenario where she
didn't have to kill Anya. Buffy is continually reminded of people
who died because she failed to act (most recently, in the season
opener when the angry spirits of people she failed to save assailed
her) including the people Angelus killed and the people who died
between the time Dawn was cut and Buffy's death. When Anya changed
the obsessive boyfriend into a worm, the girl's life was at risk
-- she almost died several times. By allowing Anya to remain in
operation after this near-death experience, Buffy permitted (in
her own mind, at least) those frat boys to die. Marching off to
kill Anyanka was analogous to Buffy marching off to kill Angelus
after Jenny's death.
Willow seemed to understand that Buffy was doing the right thing,
even though she refused to come along and help Buffy (a quick
shake of her head -- let Buffy get her hands dirty). Then she
decided to try something on her own (which reminds me again of
Buffy fighting Angelus not knowing what Willow is doing -- what
if D'Hoffryn had removed Anya's powers at Willow's behest right
before Buffy ran a sword through Anya?) Willow was trying to help,
but it could have gone horribly wrong. Additionally, Willow knew
that she still had issues with the dark magicks -- she was made
perfectly aware during the spider attack of how close to the surface
Dark Rosenberg is, yet, without supervision and without consulting
her friends, she summons of a vengeance demon (using that old
amulet that she really ought to have destroyed a season or two
ago) -- and not just any vengeance demon -- the demon that makes
other demons. I think this was remarkably poor judgment and, as
Vickie points out above, Buffy would certainly have had grave
reservations about solo demon summoning.
I also think Anya wanted Buffy to stop her -- why else remain
in Sunnydale? Anya has impressed by her willingness to do good
without the expectation of a reward (in fact, with the expectation
of punishment). I expected the Doyle/Darla instant redemption
by noble self-sacrifice when Anya offered herself up to restore
the lives of the frat boys and was pleasantly surprised to discover
that D'Hoffryn has teeth after all. From Anya's standpoint, she'd
probably have been happier if Willow had not intervened and Buffy
had killed her. Now Anya gets to suffer for having inadvertently
caused the death of Halfrek.
Another thing in this episode that I liked:
Buffy has taken over Giles' role. She makes the hard, but necessary,
decisions and is willing to allow her friends to stay innocent.
She takes the burden of slaying Anya entirely on herself. Both
Willow and Spike should take note that Buffy was willing to kill
a friend for the greater good.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Excellent analysis, Mal. -- HonorH, 13:34:52
10/25/02 Fri
This did seem to be sort of a replay of "Becoming II,"
didn't it? The similarities--Buffy fighting someone she cares
about with a sword, dressed in black; Xander's presence at the
scene; and Willow elsewhere, doing a spell--are too great to be
a coincidence. And again, the worst consequences fall upon the
person Buffy is fighting. Heck even the structure of Anya, with
her three names (Aud, Anyanka, Anya), parallels Liam/Angelus/Angel.
Fascinating!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Excellent analysis, Mal. --
ponygirl, 13:58:33 10/25/02 Fri
Yes, great points Mal and HonorH. The echoes of Becoming 2 were
everywhere, and Buffy's "I'm alone" speech recalled
Whistler's words as well. The reprise of this old episode without
resolving any of the issues surrounding it, made me wonder if
Selfless' true purpose was to remind us of Becoming. To have Becoming
referenced on both BtVS and Ats this season makes me think we're
going to see a revisiting of this story. Themes on the Buffyverse
never die they just get reworked and enriched.
[> [> Re: I agree (spoilers
for Ats 4.1 and Btvs 7.1-7.5) -- shadowkat, 12:10:44 10/23/02
Wed
wow - thanks alcibades - lots to discuss here.
1. "This Buffy of this show made me long for an earlier Buffy
-- Season 5 Buffy, or Season 4 Buffy or Season 2 or 3 Buffy. Okay
not season 6 Buffy but that Buffy still had something wrong with
her heart -- it just wasn't being explored."
Uhm me too. Especially after watching Anne and Faith, Hope, Tricks
last night right before it. And I'd seen Becoming again the day
before that...So as I'm watching last night's episode it came
to me...Buffy almost says it in her diatribe to Xander and Willow
about Anya...Buffy has sealed off her heart - she has to be the
law. It's her alone. They aren't with her. She did it since Angel.
And apparently hasn't really loved any one since. So the images
of hearts
being hurt or gone - Buffy?
2. "But I think we were supposed to have this feeling about
Buffy. Buffy here is clearly wrong. We are supposed to realize
this."
Yes - this appears to made clear in the last scene in which D'Hoffryn
says, "She who hacks things up. Slayers. All they know how
to do is kill things." Wish could reproduce the rest of his
speech it was ironically insightful for such an evil guy. And
Buffy looks chagrined in the scene. Anya also makes it clear that
Buffy can't easily kill her like some vampire...just as D'Hoffryn
does. "I'd teleport before you got the chance." Buff
is put in her place in this scene.
And it's weird. So I started thinking...has Buffy really saved
the day this year??
1. Lessons: that was Spike and Xander actually. Spike told her
about the tailsman. She told Xander. He destroyed it.
Killing them did not work.
2. Beneath You: Spike and Anya - Buffy got Nancy out of harm's
way, sure, But Spike wounded the demon and Xander convinced Anya
to change it back.
3. STSP : Buff killed Gnarl. But Spike found it. Anya found Willow.
And Dawn provided info on how to kill it.
4. Help: Buff killed Demon. But she didn't discover what was killing
Cassie. Spike saved Cassie from the boys. Dawn became her friend.
5. Selfless: Buff kills the spider demon. But Anya takes back
the curse and makes the sacrifice making the boys live again.
Xander gives Anya his love. Willow tries to reach her with love.
Possibly together X/W helped Anya come to her decision. All Buffy
did was make her fight.
I'm sure you could read it the other way of course. The question
is which one is the way the writers want us to see it?
3."I think that Dyna nailed it exactly right when she talked
about Buffy's fear of heart failure -- that her heart wasn't right."
Completely agree...until Dyna's post, I didn't see it myself.
4. "Angel is clearly on Buffy's mind this year, so much so
that she blurts out her anger at her friends for cheering her
on to the thing that has been so hurtful to her for years she
has never discussed it and indeed, she walled it up in her heart
and never let it out."
Big time and this interests me. In Deep Down Angel references
Buffy, but not by name. He says something to the effect that his
ex-girlfriend sent him to hell and what Connor did is nothing
in comparison. Angel has clearly left Buffy behind him. While
Buffy still has her fears and pains regarding Angel inside.
Why? Is it the daddy issue thing?
Angel's relationship with Buffy is described by the Swami in Guise
Will Be Guise as a mommyissue or substitution for Darla. Angel
gets past Buffy after Darla returns and he is forced to come to
terms with the woman who sired him and rejected him when he got
a soul. The petit blond.
But Buffy has never been able to come to terms with her father,
either Hank or Angel - so keeps taking out their rejection on
others (Riley, Spike), just as Angel did with her. Perhaps Angelus
isn't as removed from Angel as everyone wants to think?? (I don't
know, this is all hypothesis, so don't flame...not meaning to
step on buttons here.)
5. "Spike has been forcing Buffy to confront Angel and what
happened. I had been assuming that Buffy knew that Spike wasn't
cursed with a soul -- but he never told her so much -- he just
said he went out and got it -- Now I wonder if unconsciously or
consciously she is worried about what would cause him to lose
his soul. "
Hmmm...not sure what Buffy understands about this. I wish for
Giles who would explain it all. I think she is trying not to deal
with it. Spike having a soul is raising all sorts of troublesome
heart issues she's not sure how to handle. Like the nature of
demons. Who she is. Who spike really is (because she has no clue).
Who Angel really was.
And what having a soul really means. Up until now - she could
deal with Spike the way a child would - or Dru with one of her
dolls. "You have no soul - you're evil." You're a dog.
You have no choice. You can't change. Just a doll.
Even Xander says it in the episode:"Spike had no choice."
(Spike - from what Xander says - is only good because of the chip
- he's a puppet or a dog on a leash. No choice. But the soul gives
him a choice. Anya has one. Which makes me think Buff hasn't told
a soul about Spike's soul. (no pun intended.) )
6. "I also noticed the fact that with her heart out of whack
in this episode, Buffy takes a hands on approach to the problem
of Anya. Since her great gift for love isn't working, she relies
on the thing she does best -- use her hands to go for the weapons."
Felt this too... Buffy is all hands in this episode. I have
to kill Anya. I'm the law. (Oh speaking of hands...notice
Anya trying to get the blood off her hands just as Faith struggled
to do in Bad Girls?)
7. "But in some situations -- clearly last year with Darth
Willow and here too -- it's entirely the wrong approach. And indeed,
it could lead to tragic consequences -- as it almost did last
night. With such a lack of prescience, heart failure Buffy is
not going to be able to win her big battles this year."
I think this is true. If the season is about power? Does fighting
power with power work? The Christian view was to turn the other
cheek. To love. To quell it. In Wizard of OZ, the witch is destroyed
not through power but the soothing essence of water. Ghandi fought
his wars not with the mallet as Buffy states in Ann, but with
love. Xander at the end of Grave saves the world with love not
power or violence - which Giles states will not work in this situation.
Buffy couldn't defeat Willow in Grave, because Buffy couldn't
give her love and forgiveness, only fight her with power and all
that did was egg Willow on.
Perhaps what Buffy needs to learn this year is the healing power
of love? Of mercy? Of when you need to lay down your arms?
I keep thinking of Restless where she confronts the Slayer and
tells the Slayer that she is not just about the kill, that she
has her friends and will be a fireman when the floods roll back
and does not sleep on a hill of bones.
Or when she's with Riley in the dream and bends to pick up her
weapons putting on the primal mud face and Riley says: "I
thought you wanted to find you friends. Guess you just a killer
after all..." or something to that effect.
Are we exploring these elements of Buffy's dream now?
8. "We also see Buffy has been harboring anger at Xander
and Willow for years over their role in Angel's death. It's not
really a stretch to believe she's harboring anger at Spike for
it too, because he gave her the means to make it happen with his
turning."
Hmmm it didn't occur to me that she'd be angry with Spike over
it too? Is it possible that her anger is a projection of her own
anger at herself? Anger for loving Angel, for letting it go on
too long? For not killing Angel when she first met him? Does she
blame Spike for the fact that Angel lost his soul?
[> [> [> Re: I agree
(spoilers for Ats 4.1 and Btvs 7.1-7.5) -- Finn Mac Cool,
14:07:12 10/23/02 Wed
I'd just like to point out that for the past several seasons the
defeat of each episode's evil has rarely been solely up to Buffy.
She is usually the critical part, but it's often group effort
just the same.
[> [> [> Re: I agree
(spoilers for Ats 4.1 and Btvs 7.1-7.5) -- Masq, 16:48:24
10/23/02 Wed
Didn't anyone see Buffy's whole speech about killing Angel
despite how much she loved him and how she never loved anyone
more as
vindication that Buffy and Angel have an eternal love?
Or was that just me?
Still hoping they eventually get over this Spike and Cordelia
thing and do a Brady-bunch thing with Dawn and Connor.
OK, that is definitely just me . : )
[> [> [> [> Re:
I agree (spoilers for Ats 4.1 and Btvs 7.1-7.5) -- Wisewoman,
17:40:03 10/23/02 Wed
Actually, Masq, that whole thing about loving Angel more than
anyone else seemed...wrong, to me. Not a lie, exactly, but inconsistent.
Okay, I know we're talking about romantic love as opposed to maternal,
or sibling, love, but hey, Buffy killed Angel and she absolutely
refused to kill Dawn. The stakes were the same (no pun intended).
Surely that means she loves Dawn more than Angel?
Just my take on it...
;o)
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I agree (spoilers for Ats 4.1 and Btvs 7.1-7.5) --
Masq, 17:55:46 10/23/02 Wed
See, I thought that had less to do with how much she loved them
and more to do with the fact that Dawn was an innocent who fell
into her situation through no fault of her own while Angel was
an adult who had culpability in his own demise. This is a big
difference for Buffy.
Also, it had a lot to do with Buffy finding an alternative at
the last minute in the case of Dawn, while having no alternative
in the case of Angel.
The amount of love doesn't have to have anything to do with it.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I agree (spoilers for Ats 4.1 and Btvs 7.1-7.5) --
Dancing, 18:09:38 10/23/02 Wed
After living through the act and aftermath of her sacrifice of
Angel to save the world, Buffy was not capable of repeating it.
She knew exactly what the experience felt like and could not do
it again with Dawn.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I agree (spoilers for Ats 4.1 and Btvs 7.1-7.5)
-- annonymous, 15:46:36 10/25/02 Fri
Yeah, but it does seem strange that after her sentaments about
Dawn in the season five finale that she would say she's never
loved anything as much as she loved her boyfriend.
You also have to remember that she made it clear that, at least
in theory, that she would let the dimensions tear open and protect
Dawn to the death in the aforementioned episode.
[> [> [> [> Hmmmmmm
-- Rufus, 18:49:52 10/23/02 Wed
Yes, I can see how people would take that statement as Buffy being
eternally in love with Angel, but is the reverse true?
What I thought was that Buffy went back to the time where she
had to kill the man she loved over all...that moment leaving her
more alone that at any time in her life. From that time on a part
of Buffy shut down and has not allowed her risk loving a man like
that again. Does that mean Buffy and Angel 4eva......no.
[> [> [> [> [>
Agree--I didn't see "eternal love" so much as "arrested
emotional life" -- Dyna, 08:43:24 10/24/02 Thu
In this context, in an episode where we see Buffy in a number
of situations showing lack of compassion or feeling (not bashing
here, just observing--my personal feeling has always been that
her apparent callousness arises out of deep fear and vulnerability),
the feeling I had while listening to Buffy was that she's revealing
how much her experience with Angel shut her down emotionally.
The fact that is hasn't come up before may be an indication that
recent events (i.e. Spike's ensouling) are forcing those issues
back to the surface for her.
(Of course, I always take the position that the only thing a direct
quote from a character is "proof" of is that the character
said the words, and had some kind of motive for saying them. Anything
beyond that--including whether we think the character believes
what they're saying and why we think they said it--falls into
the category of conjecture and interpretation for me.)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Well said. Agree entirely. -- s'kat, 09:48:32
10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Well, isn't an arrested growth a kind of eternity? Not
to be taken seriously, of course. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:08:31
10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Agree--I didn't see "eternal love" so much
as "arrested emotional life" -- Rufus, 15:47:34
10/24/02 Thu
Yes, the situation with Spike is forcing Buffy to deal with that
part of herself she shut off long ago. She doesn't dare love because
she can only pair love and loss together (talking boyfriend love)...but
is also part of a bigger problem of love with Buffy. She is full
of love but always pulls back from it out of fear.
Buffy loved Angel more than she ever dared to love anything and
she lost him twice. She has never moved on from that which we
can see by what happened with Riley. One thing is true....Buffy
will always LOVE Angel, but that doesn't mean she can never find
love again with someone else. That first love can be a gold standard
that people hold up as what love should be, and end up alone because
you can't replicate that exact moment in time again.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Agree--I didn't see "eternal love" so much
as "arrested emotional life" -- Rufus, 15:48:53
10/24/02 Thu
Yes, the situation with Spike is forcing Buffy to deal with that
part of herself she shut off long ago. She doesn't dare love because
she can only pair love and loss together (talking boyfriend love)...but
is also part of a bigger problem of love with Buffy. She is full
of love but always pulls back from it out of fear.
Buffy loved Angel more than she ever dared to love anything and
she lost him twice. She has never moved on from that which we
can see by what happened with Riley. One thing is true....Buffy
will always LOVE Angel, but that doesn't mean she can never find
love again with someone else. That first love can be a gold standard
that people hold up as what love should be, and end up alone because
you can't replicate that exact moment in time again.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Ah, context - Spoilers for Selfless -- fresne, 16:03:29
10/24/02 Thu
Ah, yes, context, conjecture, interpretation.
My own interpretation is that Buffy, Xander and Willow's Anya-spat
is not a reasoned discussion, it's an argument.
Arguments can be horrible heart pounding things. Full of passion
and anger and well, I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes
I say things for the emotional punch and not necessarily the emotional
accuracy. The point in a really vicious argument is to make the
biggest messiest wound possible, because you're in pain and you
want to share the wealth.
What is true in life is sometimes true in fiction. Since I have
bias, my vision isn't always reliable. Since the characters have
bias and depth and weave and weft, they aren't always reliable
either.
So, here's Xander telling Buffy that she can't kill Anya because,
he, Xander, loves her. Because Anya is Buffy's friend. The same
Xander who has spent years denigrating Buffy's romantic choices
because first Angel and then Spike (Riley's kind of a reverse
issue.) are demons, killers.
And again, I'm very struck by the realization that Buffy has spent
the last four years thinking that Xander and Willow told her to
"Kick his (Angel's) ass," but planned all along to restore
Angel's soul. The cut isn't that she stabbed Angel in the heart,
it's that she got her lover back and then had to kill him and
her friends are the people that made that happen. I'm watching
S3 with new eyes.
Quite frankly, I'm impressed that Buffy didn't use strong language
and violent content in that argument.
And I'm equally impressed that ME managed, after four years of
weaving plot, to place Xander in Buffy's position. Because Anya
may be the love of his life or, given that he's 21-22, she may
just be first love. Twenty-something love. The one that got away.
I don't really hear Buffy as saying that she will never love again,
but that she's been where Xander is and that his arguments were
a little different when it wasn't his heart bleeding. In the harshest
terms possible, because well, it's an argument.
Now that the parallel is clear, I'm actually hoping that it gives
Xander a chance to work through some of his issues. Anya isn't
the only one who has some growing into herself to do.
Once again, we come to interpretation.
Okay, there's something I want to say, but it's kind of hard for
me to articulate. I'll start with examples and work backward.
Okay, when Xander leaves Anya at the altar, it's all about his
issues. It's not about her. Has he ever told her that?
In a Xander world view kind of way, when Anya slept with Spike,
it was all about Xander and nothing to do with alcohol, sympathy
and good smells. When Anya was upset in the last two episodes
of S6, it was about Xander and not, you know Willow. When Anya
became a vengeance demon again, it was about Xander. It kind of
was, but it was also because she was confused and hurt and she
grabbed onto a familiar role. Until Helpless, I didn't understand
it really, so I'm not sure how well he did.
Xander understands that Anya's needy, but I'm not sure that he
sees that that neediness isn't really about him.
And even now that he has a well paying job, a suit, a car, has
clocked field time, saved the world with his mouth, I'm not sure
that he really, how to put this, that loves himself.
He left Anya at the alter because he felt dangerous, inadequate,
wrong. Was afraid of being a failure. Has he actually resolved
any of these issues? He saved the world in Grave, but heck, he
saved Buffy's life and by extension the world in PG, so I'm not
sure how much I believe in happy heart whole Xander.
When he chortled over Willow writing poems over him five years
ago, it was funny and in character. However, in a random kind
of way, it strikes me as the laugh of someone looking for validation
from outside of himself. In episode after episode, he mentions
that he wants a new relationship, because he doesn't want to be
alone. Dateless. A loser?
More and more I think that the lines of reconnection aren't going
to go the way that we think. Not Xander and Anya, but Willow talking
vengeance with Anya. That the person that Xander needs to learn
to deal with is Spike, because you know, that Angel guy has his
own show. That for all we know, "She'll tell you someday."
could be Willow or Anya or Dawn saying something completely unexpected
to Spike. That the balance in Buffy's heart will come from East
of the Moon while we are all looking West of the Sun.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Oh, and some vague S7 speculations based on no
foreknowledge -- fresne, 16:13:26 10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Yet another great post, fresne -- Sophist,
16:24:23 10/24/02 Thu
I loved the one below also.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Interesting, agree...oh quick correction Help not
Helpless. -- shadowkat, 07:04:39 10/25/02 Fri
"More and more I think that the lines of reconnection aren't
going to go the way that we think. Not Xander and Anya, but Willow
talking vengeance with Anya. That the person that Xander needs
to learn to deal with is Spike, because you know, that Angel guy
has his own show. That for all we know, "She'll tell you
someday." could be Willow or Anya or Dawn saying something
completely unexpected to Spike. That the balance in Buffy's heart
will come from East of the Moon while we are all looking West
of the Sun."
Of course you probably know that I agree from reading my own post.
I think Xander is the one who is going to help
Spike not Buffy and not Willow. Just as it was Willow who helped
Anya. This isn't a year about ships. That was last year.
I also agree with you on Xander...the show has a huge mislead
which I fell into on first viewing. But if you saw Revelations
from Season 3 last night? And then rewatched Selfless? Whoa. Xander
in Revelations comes across as both heartless and hypocritical.
Buffy's anger at him is well contained. He does the same thing
to Buffy in Revelations that happens in Selfless but with one
key difference.
Angel at this point is no longer a threat...he hasn't just killed
a bunch of people like he had in Becoming. In fact,
Xander's actions in Revelations - would be similar if Buffy decided
to kill Anya after the Wish. Buffy isn't that heartless in this
episode - but she appears to be, if you are watching it from Xander/Spike
or Willow's pov.
If you watch from Anyanka or Buffy's pov - she isn't, Buffy actually
is in a great deal of pain and is holding back.
The heartless is the mislead.
The character in the most confusion in Selfless? Is actually Xander...Anya
and Spike
It amazes me how these shows flip and change upon a second viewing.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Agree, agree - Spoilers -- fresne, 16:42:49
10/25/02 Fri
Yes, in an after the fact kind of way.
As much as I love ship, it is perhaps time for our characters
to make dry land and leave behind unquiet seas. Set forth the
Raven. Set forth the Dove. Let the flood waters roll back. Be
a fireman. Fighting fire only when it gets out of control. Since
fire is both bad and pretty. We all need a little spark.
Finding that balance between the judge, the jury and the executioner.
Bringing a quality of mercy to the law. Learning to balance those
pencils when you get the call for help.
This sense of becoming themselves is one of the more exciting
aspects of this season, since that's just as much "Oh, grow
up" as anything else.
As to Revelations, what's so weird is knowing that when I first
saw it I had absolutely no idea that Xander was going to end up
dating a demon. A vengeance demon who came to town because of
his and Wiillow's choices that were already in play as of that
episode. Cordy, not being super at the time, wasn't ultimately
stabbed in the heart, but I'll accept the substitution.
Anyway, I can't think of a single other episode that made me slide
perspective on previous episodes this much. I'm glad they got
me ready with Willow's little multi-phasic shift earlier.
Although, I'm not sure that Xander was so much heartless hypocritical
as blinkered.
We keep seeing hearts, but there is also the quality of gaze.
Willow's little spell of un-sight. Willow's eyes going black.
Buffy's blind ax toss. Her blind arrow catch. Spike not knowing
if what he sees is real. The viewers not knowing if we can believe
our gaze. The constant play with perspective and bias.
What the heart does not see.
This season there is just this incredible sense of everything
clicking into place. In a more concrete example, there is this
point in sewing when, you've cut the fabric, you've been sewing
and all of a sudden it becomes a garment. It's not done yet, you
still have to hem and sew on sleeves and whatnot, but the shape
is there. All of a sudden you start to see the thing that you're
making.
All the better here because I don't have to do any of the work.
[> [> [> [> Defending
Buffy/Angel (spoilers for 7.5, 4.2) -- Scroll, 05:50:56
10/24/02 Thu
While my B/A shipper heart longs to believe that Joss is setting
up a Buffy and Angel reconciliation, I have to admit the chance
of that happening is very, very slim. On the other hand, I totally
believe Buffy is telling the truth as far as she can see it.
She did love Angel more than anyone else (romantically speaking,
I mean). She never loved Riley the same way, she never loved Spike
the same way--or at all. However, I think she could have
loved Riley if she had never met Angel. And I think if she had
never met Angel, Buffy would've dusted Spike long ago.
(B/S shippers, don't kill me, but I think we've got a lot of transference
going on here with Spuffy.)
I've read some posts on this board saying it's sad and pathetic
that Buffy's love for Angel is the epitome of what she believes
is romantic love, that she can't move past what she and Angel
had. I don't think I can agree. Yeah, you can argue Buffy wanted
approval from an older male (father issues), Angel wanted a symbol
for his redemption, there was that whole soul-loss issue between
them--but I don't think just because Buffy was a teen when she
was with Angel that we can automatically dismiss her feelings
as juvenile and unrealistic. Buffy became best friends with Willow
and Xander, took Giles for a mentor, at the same time she fell
in love with Angel. Yes, romantic-love is different from friend-love,
but the same person felt all these feelings, and I don't think
we can judge Buffy's love for Angel as simply a silly high
school crush if we don't judge her love for Giles as simply
needing a father figure. Clearly it's more complicated than that.
Do we dismiss Dawn's love for Tara as misplaced just because we
know Dawn wanted a mother figure?
Maybe Buffy has hardened herself against potential romantic
interests, like Riley and Spike. Personally, I think Angel is
still Buffy's best match, especially now that they've both grown
up some and learned that they can live independently. Angel was
the only one who never tried to mold Buffy into his ideal, or
to resent her if she wasn't the way he wanted--though granted
Buffy being emotionally open to him contributed to his respect
for her.
As for Angel/Cordelia... Eh, what can I say? You either see chemistry
or you don't. When Gwen asked Angel if he really loved Cordelia,
he said, "Yeah, I do." But to me? He didn't sound very
convincing. Or convinced. I mean, couldn't he have said, "Yes,
she means the world to me" or "Yes, she's my best friend"
or even "Yes, I love her" and put some emotional oomph
behind his words?
And as for Cordelia loving Angel, I buy it even less. That whole
subsuming her identity into his doesn't bode well for her having
real romantic love for him, IMO.
And yes, Dawn and Connor would make a cute couple!
That is all,
Scroll
[> [> [> [> [>
Ack! My post got hijacked by B/A shippers, the ship that won't
die ;-) -- shadowkat, 06:32:02 10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Throw vegetables and various meat at them <g>
-- alcibiades, 06:35:58 10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Or kittens...lots of kittens..though Clem might
get upset -- s'kat, 06:40:42 10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Hey, I was simply trying to reply to posts
-- Scroll, 07:34:31 10/24/02 Thu
that addressed why Buffy is the way she is, especially
when you bring in the whole Lolita, she wants a father figure,
argument. Replying to posts that (IMO) saw B/A only as detrimental
to Buffy's heart instead of having both good and bad elements.
Now that I go back to read my post, I realise I spent more time
defending why Buffy isn't a silly teen for loving Angel or hanging
on to what she had with him, instead of addressing Buffy's current
hard-heartedness. So sorry for hijacking, s'kat.
And you're right, B/A is the ship that just won't die!
Long live BufFy+AngeL4evah!!
Yeah, okay... Enough of that. So please don't throw vegetables
or various meat items at me. My head is soft, you might dent it.
Though kittens are most welcome. :)
Scroll
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> LOL!! -- s'kat, 07:58:50 10/24/02
Thu
Actually Masq hijacked the thread but she's board master
and it was easier to post under you. ;-) Bwwwahhha
Also I hate ships. Sorry they get on my nerves. Even my own ships
get on my nerves - it hurts my enjoyment and analysis of the show.
Hey! I used to be a B/A shipper wayyy back in 1997- 1999.
(Never meant to say there weren't good things in B/A - B/A taught
B and A quite a bit about themselves and set A on the champion's
path. Actually I think B/A did more for A than B...but that's
just my feeling in retrospect.)
Then stopped. I Got over it. I think shippiness really clouds
our view of the show. Because the writers really aren't writing
that. They aren't into happy endings. Or romance. They use the
romances and ships to explore dark themes and develop characters.
The thwarted marriage story was about far more than X and A breaking
up - actually we may see X and A reunite this season, it was partly
for A to re-explore what being a vengence demon is all about.
B/A was not about the beautiful star-crossed romance or the man
going all evil - yes that was part of the story, but it was also
about first loves and how we idealize first loves and need to
somehow move past that and it explored Buffy's struggle between
love and duty and family and the slayer vs. normal girl. We aren't
going to have Buffy and Angel riding off into the sunset together.
It doesn't explore Buffy's tragic hero's journey or add to Angel's.
They were never writing the romance that their fans yearned for.
No more than Shakespear planned on Romeo and Juliet living together
- that wasn't the perfect romance either - it was set up to show
the horrors of romaticized love and what two warring sides can
produce. I realized that after I Will Always Remember You and
again in Guise Will Be Guise.
But as I said to Grant in a thread several weeks back - we will
see the show through our own hopes and dreams. If you have a deep
connection to B/A (for whatever reason) - there is nothing anyone
including the writers can say or do that will dislodge it. But
it may prevent you from seeing some
new angles to the show or enjoying what lies ahead. Because I
can pretty much guarantee you B/A ain't where they are headed
right now.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> I try to keep perspective
-- Scroll, 08:12:43 10/24/02 Thu
Yeah, I'm a B/A shipper but I do try to keep a level head about
it (though my post above probably doesn't inspire much confidence
in that claim). While I'd love to see Buffy and Angel happy together,
I know that what I really need is more pain, tragedy, drama,
and story-telling. I'm quite willing to watch my favourite characters
go through hell for the sake of their journey. I don't even need
B/A to end up together on the shows. I'm not totally delusional!
I know it'll never happen.
Actually, I don't like shippiness either (again, my post above
probably doesn't prove that claim). I believe in the narrative
first; the romances simply fuel the characters' stories. That
being said, once in a while I can't help but defend my favourite
ships and characters from what I see as overwhelming opposition
(not you, though).
Anyway, thanks for being patient with my shippery side. :)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Not a problem...happens
to the best of us ;-) -- shadowkat, 09:42:37 10/24/02 Thu
And thanks for that.
I'm sure you see my shippy side pop up from time to time.
And I am a true masochist - the more impossible agnsty and dark
the ship? LOL! In fact I'm usually finding myself
rooting for the no way in hell ones...it's sad but true.
(I try to bury this side of myself only letting it out in emails
or occassional conversations...but hey, like our demon selves,
it does raise it's uggy head from time to time.)
The truth is I'd have stopped watching the show long ago if the
characters were living in shippy happiness - I like the pain,
the agnst, the torture and the misery ME heaps on me, as I scream
carthetically more more....! LOL!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ships....Bah Humbug......I
prefer a best our of seven coin toss..... -- Rufus, 15:57:37
10/24/02 Thu
to see who Buffy will end up with next.....or we could consider
a time-share situation so all the fans can see their ship realized.
There is nothing wrong with liking the B/A ship but it's over
unless I see proof otherwise. But at this time Buffy and Spike
a Kablooey as well...though I really don't see last year as a
ship as much as a collision....;)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, as a ship,
I thought it went down kinda like the Titanic ... -- vh, 06:03:00
10/25/02 Fri
as in spectacular failure. Not something I care to revisit in
that form! (I'm speaking of HMS Spuffy here, of course.)
[> [> [> theories...
-- Juliet, 18:31:14 10/23/02 Wed
My theory: they are setting us up for something with all this
Angel-mentioning...somewhere down the road Buffy is going to spend
a chunk of time dealing with this, and dealing with him, and moving
on. Joss said in a whole bunch of magazines and interviews: "Our
characters will be both reliving high school and realizing how
they can't." (re: Buffy <---) and "This season's
going to explore the character's pasts, who they were." (re:
Angel <---)
Obviously, the Buffy/Angel relationship is going to be dealt with.
Right now, it's sort of left hanging. There is no finite ending,
no closure. Angel and Cordy, if they are going to have a relationship,
are going to have to deal with this too. On both shows, together
Production says they're separate now, but they're not. They never
have been. They've been closely linked far more than most spinoffs
and their parent shows have been in the past. Most spinoffs cross
over with their parent show once or twice the first season, not
eight or nine times over the course of three plus years along
with frequent DIRECT mentions of the other show. That's why a
lot of people still connect them, and still seem them as one show.
No one knows Melrose Place was a spinoff of Beverly Hills 90210,
do they? But ME has never been the type to play by the book.
So this leaves me to ponder the quintessential Buffy question...what's
going to happen here? Am I spouting an empty theory, or are we
going to see the end of the neverending relationship? Are everyone's
favortie characters going to come together for a last hurrah?
I'm hoping they do.
[> [> [> [> Re:
"I'm hoping they do." -- pr10n, 21:55:55 10/23/02
Wed
Oh, please, HeWhoIsJoss, let the [FraySpoiler] thing happen where
Buffy defeats the Biggest Baddest, and a tv story ends with an
ending! Let the strong and weak and British ones gather and defeat
the evil stuff. Let there be DENOUEMENT!!
[> [> [> Not hijacking
-- verdantheart, 06:48:54 10/24/02 Thu
Re 5. or Spike going to get a soul. Angelus would *never* get
a soul for Buffy. Does that bother her? Does it bother her that
Spike with soul or not, loves her just the same, but the soul
made a big difference for Angel/Angelus? Does this make her colder
towards Spike because he would do this out of his love of someone
who does not love him back when someone she loved so very much
would not do the same? Could not remember enough of what they
had to reach for the same boon? To Angelus, it was simply a curse
to be avoided. And the memories of what he had with Buffy, though
they consumed him, only drove him to higher peaks of evil, not
towards acts of good (as they have Spike, BTW). I think she might
be acting the way she is toward Spike partly because his acts
represent a difference between Spike and Angel that bother her
deeply. The parallel is too striking to ignore, whether it be
consciously or subconsciously.
Secondarily, of course, there is the fact that Buffy has always
chosen to discourse with Spike in argument. With him in his diminished
state, it's difficult for her to do this, but she doesn't want
to change her style. And I think that is also part of why she's
irritated and short with him. (Along with the fact that it's just
difficult to deal with people who are mentally ill . . .)
Hope I didn't ramble too much . . .
[> [> [> [> Precisely
-- alcibiades, 08:03:02 10/24/02 Thu
I agree. And moreover, I think that what spike has done, consciously
choosing the soul, will allow him to integrate himself fully --
you can see that to some extent with the white Buffy, he isn't
denying what he did to her as unsouled Spike, he remembers it
and it is Buffy who says you were different then, not Spike.
But because of the curse, it is hard to understand how Angel will
ever integrate with Angelus.
[> Re: Heart, Spirit, Mind
and Hands spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- CW, 10:14:07 10/23/02
Wed
Joyce eventually does accept what Buffy is, but in Becoming I
think it's better to say that she rejects the idea Buffy is the
Hand (and perhaps tries to use arguments of Spirit, Mind and Heart
to get Buffy to deny what she is).
Where does your structure leave the Hand part? Or was season 4
about Buffy being the Hand? Season 3 had the episode (Helpless)
in which Buffy had her powers taken away, but I think it is safe
to say she was still 'the Hand' in that episode.
[> [> Re: Heart, Spirit,
Mind and Hands spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- shadowkat, 11:03:07
10/23/02 Wed
"Where does your structure leave the Hand part? Or was season
4 about Buffy being the Hand? Season 3 had the episode (Helpless)
in which Buffy had her powers taken away, but I think it is safe
to say she was still 'the Hand' in that episode."
Don't know...I'm wondering if they went for Season 8, that would
have been about the hand. Or maybe the hand was 4?
Although I see all four of the symbols in Season 4, and remember
Season 4 had the most stand alone episodes.
Something Blue - Spirit
Pangs - Heart (the song Quality of Mercy by I think Kd Lang
comes to mind from Dead Man Walking)
The I in Team - Hand
Who Are You - Spirit/Heart and Mind transfered
If the structure works and I'm not just nuts, then
the hands should save the heart at the end of the year, as the
heart saved the spirit, and the spirit saved the mind.
Question is whose hands?? Buffy's?
[> [> [> Re: Heart,
Hands future spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- alcibiades, 11:12:06
10/23/02 Wed
If the structure works and I'm not just nuts, then
the hands should save the heart at the end of the year, as the
heart saved the spirit, and the
spirit saved the mind.
Well that is precisely what I think is likely to happen and I
have been saying it for a while now -- but it ain't going to be
pretty when we see it. It's going to be really tragic and take
us full circle.
I keep on flashing on Acathla and the sword through his/her heart
-- walled in to his stone tomb.
[> [> [> [> I agree..
-- shadowkat, 11:33:01 10/23/02 Wed
Tragic is right...and you are reminding me of a post someone sent
me via email - William The Poet's I think it was, where he said
many people's problems with the story was they kept seeing Buffy
as the unadulterated hero and forgetting this is a gothic horror
show and in truth she is the "tragic" hero.
I agree.
It will be tragic. I'm just not sure how yet. Perhaps someone
will have to sacrifice what they love most in order
to save the world? Or will they all? Or is it more complicated
than that?
[> [> [> [> [>
"It is a far, far better thing that I do..."
-- Spike Lover, 11:36:44 10/23/02 Wed
[> and remember, "Heart
of Darkness" -- Rahael, 10:14:18 10/23/02 Wed
[> [> This would be interesting
further pursued... -- Sophie, 11:53:21 10/23/02 Wed
Heart of Darkness (HOD) by Jeseph Conrad was one of those books
that I read three times because the concept that we can lose our
civility just fascinates as well as frightens me. I deep-down
fear becoming evil. HOD proposes that we have only a thin-skin
between our civilized selves and our savage selves and the removal
of civilization (or any other enforces of civilized behavior)
will result in descending to the level of savages. That Kurtz
feels that he cannot regain his civlized self if he were to return
is interesting.
Could Spike have sufficiently lost contact with civililzation
that he has lost his civility?
Also note that Kurtz felt that his beloved should not know "the
horror" reminds me of Xander's lie and I suspect the same
underlying reasoning. I personally, didn't have a huge problem
with Xanders lie for this reason, but others on this board seems
really upset - so maybe I am wrong.
Sophie
[> [> [> Interesting
post! (Buffy's horror) -- Rahael, 16:29:30 10/23/02 Wed
The line about the horror that might make the beloved turn away
I think is highly applicable not only to Xander and Anya, but
I think even more to Buffy.
My view has always been that Buffy fears that normal people will
come too close to the monster inside her, and turn away. That
that was what drove her father away. That's what caused all the
tensions between her and Joyce. That's what puts her friends in
danger. She was the person who awoke the monster inside Angelus.
She started going out with Riley and he went dark, and lost his
bearing in life. Her attitude towards her "Slayerness"
has always seemed to contain within it a fear of the evil inside,
the incivility. Hence her continuous desire for "normality".
Why is it so desperate? Is it because she fears that if she doesn't
impose civil restraints upon herself, she'll become like the darkness?
Fresne points beautifully to the sadness in Buffy when she says
"I am the law". Because the world has put this on her.
For the world she sent Angel to hell, and the world asked her
to kill Dawn, and took away Joyce and her father. And all it's
left her with is the duty. The Law. She fears it.
And all she learnt last season was that being with her sent Spike
crazy, and having sex with her made him turn on her, just as Angel
did. Vampire, sex, evil, soul, how can a thousand alarm bells
not be ringing? And how can Buffy not look at herself for the
common denominator?
"So one by one, they turn from me"
She's always emphasising her aloneness, not because she's an aloof
arrogant person, but she's afraid that one day, when they really
get to know her, she'll lose the only things she has left in the
world, her friends and Dawn. She's trying to be prepared. I hope,
and I'm pretty sure, thinking about it, that Buffy will not be
the big bad of that season, because I think that ME are going
to undercut this feeling that Buffy has always had. That they
are going to affirm her specialness as a joy, not a torment.
As for the controversy over her decision to kill Anya, I have
read just as many discussions which called her selfish for not
killing Dawn. And Buffy already knows that a sword thrust to the
heart wouldn't kill a Vengeance demon. Yet again, when it coomes
to those she's close to, the fight turns out to be less than ruthless.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Interesting post! (Buffy's horror) -- Sophie, 16:44:15
10/23/02 Wed
So unlike Kurtz who killed savages and displayed their skulls
on posts, Buffy is unable to kill Anya (demon) and display her
skull on a post. So Buffy has held to civil norms? (Assuming that
you accept Kurtz' definition on savages as being lower life forms
than humans, thus making this all comparable). Or is Buffy a savage
when she decides to kill Anya and sets off to do it, but she fails
because she isn't a savage?
Maybe Buffy is Marlowe, the narrator?
Thanks for the additional thoughts on the topic.
Sophie
[> Re: Heart, Spirit, Mind
and Hands spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- aliera, 10:54:14
10/23/02 Wed
"I think the writers are deliberately making Buffy seem heartless
- just as last year she seemed disconnected or lack of spirit
and the year before confused in the mind."
Absolutely Agree. And quite successfully.
Overanalyzing? Not even close. Keep it coming! But on the other
situation... hang in glad it's almost over.
[> Re: Heart, Spirit, Mind
and Hands spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- Sarand, 10:59:26
10/23/02 Wed
I just had to respond because your comments about the spider bit
made me LOL! I hate bugs in general and spiders in particular.
When the bug appeared, I screamed at the TV, "There's a reason
I didn't see 'Arachnophobia'!" Yeesh!!! I watched the episode
a second time but at least I knew how long to look away during
the spider scenes.
And my comments are sort of immediate and not thought out with
regard to your post. I like what you said about the season being
about the heart. What I find interesting about last night's episode
is how distant and, for want of a better term, heartless the human
characters seem to me. I have so much more empathy for the struggles
of the demons - Spike and Anya - because their struggles are so
out there. In their words, in their voices, in their expressions.
Buffy struggles are very interior. I don't see her as heartless
- I see her as deliberately shutting herself off from her heart,
as protection. And, despite STSP, where her fears about Buffy,
Xander and Dawn wanting her back were out there for all to see,
Willow's struggles with regard to DarkWillow are also interior.
And as last night showed when she told the frat boys' victim to
stop whimpering, it's not too deep in the interior. It's what
I've been feeling about her since the beginning of the season.
Xander is not heartless but it's dismaying how limited he is.
"Me love Willow, me love Anya, so me do anything to save
them and forgive anything that they do because I love them."
Even his love for Buffy is limited - only as far as she doesn't
disappoint him by the choices she makes in her love life. And
how incredibly ironic, and blind of Xander, to accuse her of letting
Spike off the hook as a mass murderer because she was "boning"
him while failing to see that is exactly what he has always done
with Anya. I think you're right that Xander will have to forgive
Spike, in a way he never forgave Angel, to show that his empathy
(and his heart) can expand beyond his limited view.
I'm still stuck on what's going on with Willow, although I know
that wasn't the point of your post. Hope this isn't a hijack of
the thread. Everytime I see a scene like at the beginning where
everyone is being so solicitous of Willow and helpful, I just
want to scream. Did everyone have a lobotomy or something? Did
Willow do another mind wipe? Where is Scary!Dawn with regard to
the woman who threatened to turn her into a ball of energy? So
many of the posters here seems to feel that it's wonderful to
see them all take Willow back so lovingly and with so much forgiveness
but I can't see it as real without any sort of confrontation.
Willow said some hurtful, hateful things, in addition to the killing
and torturing and almost destroying the world stuff, and no one
confronts her about it, no one even talks about it. It all seems
very flat to me and just plain unreal. Everything is just swept
under the rug, because, as Buffy said, she's human? But I also
think it's deliberate. Part of all the characters' journey in
growing up. When you don't confront these things that happen with
your friends and family, they fester and come out later, maybe
too late to deal with them properly (like Buffy's four-year-long
belief that both Willow wanted her to "kick Angel's ass"
during the Acathla incident).
Sorry, I think I rambled here. Stream of consciousness writing
may not be a good idea. But I liked your post, which, as usual,
made me think about the characters and events differently.
[> [> About Willow
-- shadowkat, 11:22:07 10/23/02 Wed
Thanks for the spider bit...nice to know there are others out
there. I told a friend of mine that the only thing she's allowed
to spoil me on is if there is a spider monster and if the spider
monster hurts my favorite characters - so i can look away. (LOL!
I sent this email off right before I saw the episode.)
On to Willow:
"I'm still stuck on what's going on with Willow, although
I know that wasn't the point of your post. Hope this isn't a hijack
of the thread. Everytime I see a scene like at the beginning where
everyone is being so solicitous of Willow and helpful, I just
want to scream. Did everyone have a lobotomy or something? Did
Willow do another mind wipe? Where is Scary!Dawn with regard to
the woman who threatened to turn her into a ball of energy? So
many of the posters here seems to feel that it's wonderful to
see them all take Willow back so lovingly and with so much forgiveness
but I can't see it as real without any sort of confrontation.
Willow said some hurtful, hateful things, in addition to the killing
and torturing and almost destroying the world stuff, and no one
confronts her about it, no one even talks about it. It all seems
very flat to me and just plain unreal. Everything is just swept
under the rug, because, as Buffy said, she's human? But I also
think it's deliberate. Part of all the characters' journey in
growing up. When you don't confront these things that happen with
your friends and family, they fester and come out later, maybe
too late to deal with them properly (like Buffy's four-year-long
belief that both Willow wanted her to "kick Angel's ass"
during the Acathla incident)."
You're not alone. Actually most posters are struggling with Willow.
And in that scene between Xander/Buffy and Will - Xander brought
up the fact that they were willing to help Willow - why not Anya,
why kill Anya when they didn't try to kill Willow. And Buffy reiterated
the same argument that she said regarding Warren - Willow is human.
(Although she may have killed Willow if it had been Angel she'd
flayed, Buffy is human not a saint and not past her own version
of hypocrisies - look at Faith.)
Willow's scene with the spider (it was out of eyesight and didn't
look like a spider in that scene - so I could watch it)- did make
me wonder about how much of DarkWillow is still there. She does
tell Anya that she understands and I think the reason she hunts
a way to help Anya on her own and doesn't tell the others too
quickly - is she knows what she's capable of.
Buffy and Xander don't want to face it. As you pointed out, Buffy
has contained her friends cheers to kick Angel's ass all these
years - instead of throwing them in their faces in Dead MAn's
Party or letting them know those cheers were part of the reason
she left town after sending Angel to hell - she blows up now.
Buffy is doing same with Willow.
Compartmentalizing. Willow is her best friend, as dear to her
as a sister, she can't concieve of killing her. To kill Willow
would be akin to killing Angel or Giles or Xander.
Clearly the decision to kill Anya didn't happen over night - Anya's
been a vengeance demon for at least six months now.
They are so welcoming of Willow I think b/c they are partly afraid
of her, of what rejection, etc might cause her to do. It's a bit
like handling a broken vase and being afraid it will cut your
fingers. Or a dangerous spider. (Not that I could handle one...but
some people seem to love them as pets...(shudder)).
Not sure that helps?
At any rate - I think part of Willow's problem is a lack of heart
as well. It's not just Buffy's heart that's in trouble. Just as
last year - everyone's spirit seemed to be failing. Willow is
the character symbolizing Spirit, Buffy is the one symbolizing
Hands, Xander - Heart...and of course our Mind is in England...and
boy was he needed in the last two episodes. (Giles in the Wish
realized Anya didn't need to be killed, her amulet just needed
to be broken...not sure why it didn't work that way here, although
I love some of the explanations the board come up with for it.)
But just because they symbolize one attribute, doesn't mean they
don't need the others. Without all four...they aren't whole and
can't function which is partly demonstrated in their Restless
dreams.
Thanks for the reply by the way.
[> [> Calling a spaid
a spaid -- Spike Lover, 11:28:20 10/23/02 Wed
One reason why I loved Spike: He called a spaid a spaid. He was
the one character who would tell it like it was, even to other
character's dismay. Now that he is nuts and isolated in a basement,
he is not doing that, which allows the other characters to continue
lying to themselves.
Buffy withholds info from her friends and family and she lies
to herself.
But none of the characters are deep. X, W, and Buffy REFUSE to
deal with anything, or to self-analyze why they did the things
they did. Has Xander started to deal w/ his feelings and fears
of becoming his father? Has Willow dealt with her own inadequacies
about why she went dark?
Buffy refuses to deal with anything. She continues to go through
the motions without really analyzing her behavior.
So NO, I am not surprised that the gang has swept what happened
w/ Dark Willow under the rug. They are disfunctional in their
avoidance of discussing or dealing with unpleasantness. (I really
never got over her allowing Dawn to go to Spike's supposedly after
being upset that he tried to rape her. That made NO sense.)
The past is the past. Buffy gives all humans a get out of jail
free card (see what happened to the remaining duo of the evil
trio.)
[> [> [> Re: Calling
a spaid a spaid -- Rufus, 21:47:47 10/23/02 Wed
One reason why I loved Spike: He called a spaid a spaid. He
was the one character who would tell it like it was, even to other
character's dismay.
Though entertaining, calling a spade a spade doesn't make Spike
better or right.
But none of the characters are deep. X, W, and Buffy REFUSE
to deal with anything, or to self-analyze why they did the things
they did. Has Xander started to deal w/ his feelings and fears
of becoming his father? Has Willow dealt with her own inadequacies
about why she went dark?
What you seem to miss is the fact that all the characters progress
at different rates. All the characters are unfinished, we get
to see them grow up....even that vampire you think is better than
the humans.
The past is the past. Buffy gives all humans a get out of jail
free card (see what happened to the remaining duo of the evil
trio.)
Buffy give humans a get out of jail for free card because she
hasn't the authority to deal with their crimes. She may protect
herself or others from a human threat but altimately human law
deals with human beings...Buffy deals with demons.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Calling a spaid a spaid -- Tamara, 01:36:53 10/24/02 Thu
I dont think Spike Lover said that Spike was better or right.
She simply said that Spikes telling it like it is appeals to her
when watching the character.
And as for Buffy not having the authority to deal with humans
can she not call the cops? Warren was a threat for ages in season
6 and she knew what he did to Katrina. But she was hardly rushing
to report him. In Gone she sits down with Willow not bothering
to chase the nerds who had frozen that guy Rusty earlier and almost
killed him I think.
In Helpess she just walks off leaving the human culprit behind.
Yes she cant kill him but she refuses to deal with humans at all.
She never even called the cops on Faith. She always ignored Faith
or tried to win her back in season 3 thinking humans can be saved.
She then leapt right into killing Faith. Why didnt she report
Faith killing that profesor guy? She doesnt seem to even make
the effort that normal citizens do when it comes to human beings
crimes effecting her work.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Calling a spaid a spaid -- Rufus, 03:44:20 10/24/02
Thu
It's called what "burden of proof"? How do you explain
the actions of all the people you used as examples......Warren,
innocent frat boy or maker of a better robot....no proof.....Faith...Slayer
with super powers, her crimes ignored as she happened to have
an in with the Mayors office...and the Council was the set of
guys who claimed authority over her, none of them could get their
mitts on her till she wanted them to. She would end up looking
either complicit or nuts if she went to the police with any of
what she had. And in regards to Faith, tell me how the cops would
have been able to deal with her any better than the all powerful
Council did.
If Spikelover has a problem with what I said she can take it up
with me. I'm simply pointing out that all the characters have
faults, even the favorites. And being straightforward doesn't
a good or bad guy make.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Ok, I completely disagree with you -- Spike Lover,
09:10:16 10/24/02 Thu
But I don't have a problem with you posting it.
I did not say Spike was better, bad or good. I just said he told
the truth.
Re: Buffy's inability to contact the police for any reason regarding
the criminal human element... I don't think crimestoppers needs
"proof", just your information. The cops don't expect
witnesses or informants to provide evidence, just leads.
I have mentioned before that Andy Sipowitz would have some harsh
things to say to our slayer if the two met- for her lack of confidence
in the police.
The whole Katrina thing really bothers me. She was all willing
to turn herself into the police supposedly because she thought
she had killed an innocent. When she realizes that it was not
her and probably Warren, she does not even bother to tell the
Police that Warren knew Katrina. This TO ME shows that Buffy really
did not give a hoot about the victim, but only herself: She might
have feared that she was out of control, but really, She was using
it as an excuse to resign her duties and get out of the game.
(Remember, she even asked the dancing demon to take her away.)
Last year, it ALWAYS seemed to be about her. (or people she cares
about.)
She may be the LAW, but she does not seem to be particularly objective,
like the law is.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Ok, I completely disagree with you -- Rufus,
15:41:49 10/24/02 Thu
You say Spike always tells the truth, but note one thing, he also
tends to lie to himself, just like anyone who can be perceptive.
If he wasn't capable of deluding himself he would have dumped
Dru long ago. So just as telling the truth and being perceptive
can be a good thing, it has its limitations, and that is usually
when Spike gets himself into trouble.
She may be the LAW, but she does not seem to be particularly
objective, like the law is.
You don't seem to know that much about the law or the police.
Andy Sipowitz is a fictional character in a show about a fictional
world. Sometimes they get some things right, but a cop show is
still a show made by a person who is on the outside of that world
looking in.
So we are back to the burden of proof.....how can Buffy tell a
group of people about a fantastic situation that (if you watched
how they came to their own conclusions of suicide)she could have
ended up in a rubber room. The police in the Buffyverse are there
for the human situation, their guns and rules just don't fit the
same way into Buffy's world, and that is why she ends up so isolated.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Calling a spade a spade -- alcibiades, 06:40:15 10/24/02
Thu
Buffy give humans a get out of jail for free card because she
hasn't the authority to deal with their crimes. She may protect
herself or others from a human threat but altimately human law
deals with human beings...Buffy deals with demons.
While I agree with you up to this point, I think that one of these
days Buffy is going to have to cross this line -- whether for
ill or good I do not know. I have been thinking so ever since
Giles killed Ben because Buffy wouldn't do it, and thereby would
have left the entire fight with Glory unwon -- to be fought over
with more destruction wreaked upon the Scoobies and the world.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Calling a spaid a spaid -- Caela, 06:56:15 10/24/02 Thu
More important than whether Spike is right or wrong, good or bad
(which is really a pointless argument, IMO), is the issue of what
the character of Spike adds to the group dynamic of the SG. Spike
Lover makes a good point about Spike's willingness to "call
a spade a spade". On several occasions (Something Blue and
Tough Love come to mind) Spike's willingness to speak the hard
truth about the Scoobs has been useful for forcing them out of
their comfort zone where they ignore problems. He forces a certain
amount of self-analysis, that IMO makes the Gang stronger.
[> Interesting -- Spike
Lover, 11:12:12 10/23/02 Wed
Good imagery.
I am pleased that perhaps the writers are finally ready to get
at the HEART of Buffy's problem: Angel.
With showing Anya's background, we find out even more what leaving
her at the altar did to her self esteem.
Clearing in Anya's story, there is the question of how to define
yourself. Dawn is repeatedly telling Willow in the opening scene
not to define herself, but to agree w/ the crowd.
Anya has always apparently had a quirky personality, even in a
medieval village. She has had 3 names, Aud, Anyanka, & Anya. She
has been a human, a v. demon, a shopkeeper. And she desperately
wanted to be wife. etc. Kudos for the song, by the way.
I disagree w/ what you said about Joyce in Becoming, by the way.
She might have been "informed" and therefore gained
her Mind, but ultimately she lost Buffy.
A season or two ago, she died of her brain tumor, but had gained
Buffy.
Similarly, Angel regained his Spirit, but lost Buffy. When he
returned from Hell, he was ALL Spirit, but no mind, but he regained
Buffy.
To go further? Spike last season was all Heart, and no Buffy.
Now he has Spirit also, and he still does not have Buffy.
[> And again with the agreeing.
-- Arethusa, 11:15:05 10/23/02 Wed
It also seems that in each episode this season Buffy is being
forced to face aspects of her slayer side that were ignored or
deemphesized in the past. She faces the dead she couldn't save,
the vampire she couldn't love, the friends she didn't kill while
they were killing others, the lover she did kill to save the world.
She is being forced to define and accept who she is and what she
will do to follow her calling. Spike underwent his trials last
year to test if he had enough heart to win back his soul. Now
Buffy is being tested-but for what? To see if she has enough control
over her heart to do what it must be done to avert the Apocalypse?
Or to see if she can open her heart and love without fear, no
matter what the consequences?
[> Symbolic of the disintegration
of the SG? -- Caroline, 11:15:35 10/23/02 Wed
I like your analysis. Buffy, by going against Xander's wishes
is strictly behaving as the Hand, (end of S4). She says she's
the law, she'll carry out Anya's death sentence. And since Xander
is the heart of the group, she is symbolically going against her
own heart.
Anya 'grew' her heart, her humanity at the end of the episode
when she was willing to give her life to undo her evil deads (ne
me impune lacessit). She faced her fate with courage, grace and
dignity. I think she's a real example to the SG.
The fact that Willow, Spirit, could not go along with Buffy to
assist in killing Anya shows me that the SG is not integrated
at a basic level - Hand, Spirit and Heart are not working together.
This is not a good omen for the future. More pain and torture
from ME
[> [> Re: Willow & Xander
- could this set the stage for a stronger SG later? -- Dyna,
09:26:07 10/24/02 Thu
"The fact that Willow, Spirit, could not go along with Buffy
to assist in killing Anya shows me that the SG is not integrated
at a basic level - Hand, Spirit and Heart are not working together.
This is not a good omen for the future. More pain and torture
from ME."
I was also very struck by the actions of both Willow and Xander
in this episode--wasn't this the first time, when confronted with
major crisis, that they didn't go along with Buffy? They showed
independence of thought and action, and would not be "led,"
even in the face of her most vehement arguments.
I thought this was very interesting. It could be a sign of bad
to come in the immediate future, but I didn't necessarily get
a negative feeling while watching. More like there's big change
afoot, possibly some division between Buffy and the others coming,
but something that could ultimately tend toward the good, in terms
of character growth--destruction in order to rebuild, maybe?
No coherent theory here, just some observations:
- Interesting how Willow chose to handle the situation. She knows
Anya is responsible, and does not tell Buffy. Instead, she sends
Buffy off to deal with the spider monster and seeks Anya out herself.
Willow acts as the leader, essentially: she deploys Buffy, "the
hand," to take care of the action parts, telling her only
as much as she needs to know (very like a general in battle does
to the troops) and saves the real diplomacy for herself. Only
when she fails with Anya does Willow go to the others, and then
it is to both Xander and Buffy at the same time--not privileging
Buffy over Xander, or "the slayer" over the human man
who "sees Anya with the eyeballs of love." As if neither
one has a greater claim of interest in the situation than the
other.
(I also really loved Willow's reaction to seeing Anya for the
first time. She showed genuine friendship for her, clearly distinct
from Anya's role as Xander's significant other, as evident from
her happiness at hearing that Anya is "happy with her new
boyfriend.")
- Is it really bad for Willow and Xander to act independently
of Buffy? In the past this has been presented as bad--especially
bad for Buffy, because she really needs the love of her friends
to tie her to life, to humanize "the slayer," and because
together they are stronger than apart. Yet watching Xander and
Willow act against Buffy's wishes in this episode did not give
me a feeling that they were "wrong"--I kind of felt
they were showing strength of character, that they've grown. Willow
and Xander both chose to offer help and friendship to Anya knowing
that Buffy would or did oppose it. Buffy tells Xander that the
reason Willow didn't tell them earlier of Anya's involvement in
the murders is that "she knew what I'd have to do."
That's Buffy's assumption--note that Willow does not express any
agreement with Buffy's statement. My sense was that Willow knew
what Buffy's *reaction* would be and wanted to head her off by
finding another way before Buffy had the chance to "make
the call," pass judgement and appoint herself executioner.
Willow clearly does not agree with Buffy's decision to go after
Anya, evident by her sad refusal to go along.
- Unlike in S4, where the Scoobies were pitted against each other,
in this case Xander and Willow are united in their opposition
to Buffy. This is no petty disagreement stirred up by Spike now,
but a serious matter in which duty, morality, justice and compassion
are on the table. Xander and Willow against Buffy, and note how
it is Buffy who draws the line between them, who insists that
there can be no compromise--it's her way or no way. "I am
the law! The slayer is always alone! It's always just me who has
to make the call!"
This is not the Buffy who appreciates and understands the importance
of her friends to her mission talking. Is it "slayer"
Buffy, speaking an essential truth? I think no. The premise that
Buffy gains her power through love, that love and connection to
others is critical to her mission, is so well established that
I can't hear Buffy ranting about how being the slayer means always
standing alone without suspecting that we're going to see her
proved wrong, and maybe soon.
- Buffy bringing up Angel in her argument with Xander--relevant,
yes, but it also struck me how much anger and self-pity was there.
She killed Angel, yes, and it was traumatic and horrible, but
the revelation that she has not only been holding this against
herself but against her friends was surprising and disturbing.
Buffy has not allowed herself to emotionally move on from what
happened with Angel, and clearly hasn't dealt with her residual
feelings of anger toward her friends. But at what point does Buffy's
trauma stop being a normal response to tragedy and start being
an excuse for not dealing? I'm not sure, but I have a feeling
Buffy passed that point a while ago. I was reminded of Xander's
reproof of Anya in "Beneath You"--after a while that
excuse stops working. And it didn't work here, notice--Buffy pulled
out the emotional trump card, the "you can't possibly understand"
of all "you can't possibly understand"s, and Xander
and Willow didn't budge.
Willow also points out something that Buffy leaves out: While
Buffy "killed" Angel, but Angel is not dead. Angel came
back. Angel is alive. "See how well that turned out?"
Willow asks--an attempt at peacemaking, a little joke, but also
something true. Whatever Buffy may be claiming in this moment
of anger, Buffy's loss of Angel is not all about her friends,
or all about the hard choices she has to make as the slayer. Angel
isn't gone because Buffy killed him. He's out there, alive, just
not with her. Is Buffy stuck in the moment of killing him because
it's still less painful than dealing with the fact that he left?
Nobody's called her on it outright, but Willow's comment at least
approaches it.
It's clear that the gang has a lot of baggage that isn't being
dealt with, so some kind of upheaval seems pretty overdue. You
can't bottle up that much stuff and not have something give way.
But that's all part of the process of growth, right? You have
to break down the old to build up the new.
In this episode we saw Buffy's resentment of her friends and her
duty come out; in the finale of last season we heard Willow's
resentment at "six years of being the sideman." In Xander's
nightmare visions in Hell's Bells we saw how his vision of the
future centered on Buffy still--he sees himself getting injured
in her cause, and being ruined as a man by the loss of her. Clearly
there are negative consequences to being subsumed in someone else's
"mission," no matter how vital and no matter how motivated
by love.
It seems to me it is not only Anya that needs to find an independent
sense of self, but also Willow, who now has great power, possibly
more than Buffy, and may be stronger emotionally than her friend,
and Xander, who needs to find value and strength as himself, not
just as a foot soldier in Buffy's army. And Spike--Spike needs
to find "the larger purpose" that Giles suggested he
might have, way back in S4. Spike has done something no other
vampire we know of has ever done, something amazing. Will he let
its worth be defined by how it is received by one girl? Will he
let Buffy be the one to decide if he is a monster or a man?
My speculation: I think the stage is being set for a realignment
among the non-Buffy characters. We have Willow bonding with Anya,
Xander compassionate for Anya and at odds with Buffy, Willow showing
sympathy for Spike in STSP, Anya able to "see" Spike's
soul, and Willow and Xander opposing Buffy in this episode. That
combined with some foreshadowy things about Buffy--her "I
am the law, the slayer stands alone" stuff, all the talk
of her shutting others out and only sharing when she thinks it's
necessary, her appearance at the end of the parade o' big bads,
and her estrangement from Spike, a character who in the past has
been able to see through and call her on her evasions more effectively
than her closest friends--make me wonder if where we're going
is toward something big that separates Buffy from her friends,
and they will have to forge new relationships with each other
in order to help her. Bad maybe while it's happening, but it seems
promising in terms of positive growth for the characters.
[> [> [> Another excellent
post, Dyna. -- Arethusa, 09:35:40 10/24/02 Thu
I agree. This season might be like Season 4, when the Scoobies
grew away from each other after high school and came back together
stronger to defeat Adam, whom no one could defeat alone. This
year's final battle might require not only group integration,
but internal integration on the part of all the characters as
well. (Which is why it's appropriate that Giles is not here-he's
already a grown-up. Although I reall, really want him back.)
[> [> [> [> Kaboomy
is right! Feel this happening as well -- shadowkat, 09:53:44
10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> Very kaboomy!
I think your spec is spot on. -- Caroline, 09:51:10 10/24/02
Thu
[> [> [> Oh yes! Complete
agreeage -- ponygirl, 10:19:49 10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> Yes, great
post. -- Sarand, 12:31:24 10/24/02 Thu
Particularly the part about whether Spike will allow the worth
of his soul being defined by how it is received by one girl -
Buffy. Like the way you said this so succintly.
[> [> [> Not sure
if Willow disagrees with Buffy. -- yez, 14:11:26 10/24/02
Thu
"Willow clearly does not agree with Buffy's decision to go
after Anya, evident by her sad refusal to go along."
Great post. I had a minor quibble with this line. I'm not sure
that her refusal to go along is as much linked with disagreement
as it is with Willow's "dark side."
After OAFA, the Scoobs knew that a sword through the heart doesn't
work on vengeance demons. (Buffy presumably intended on ruling
out every body part...) They also knew what when Willow was dark,
Anya was afraid of her. Anya didn't even put up a fight -- Willow
beat her easily.
So maybe Willow was afraid that she'd be forced to get involved
magically, for example, to save Buffy. She may also have been
concerned about her lack of success against Gnarl (sp?) using
"white" magicks contrasted with the black-eyed success
against the spider earlier that morning -- especially since that
seemed to be a slip. She didn't have time to decide what magicks
to use. She was in danger and her instinct was to use the dark
powerful stuff, and it came virtually unbidden and too easily.
So maybe it's possible she could've been worried that if she got
out of control, she might start playing on the "wrong team"
-- for Anya against Buffy.
I think that under pre-magicks circumstances, Willow would never
have sat back if she disagreed. Like, Xander, she would've gone
right along because her friends were fighting and she would've
tried to help make it right before anyone got hurt.
I don't know, from little things Willow has said this season,
it sounds like she's still not really convinced that sparing her
life and trying to rehabilitate her was a good idea. So I'm not
sure that Willow would be against killing Anya if Anya refused
to "convert," even though I think she would've been
very sad about it.
yez
[> [> [> [> Interesting
agree and disagree -- shadowkat, 06:47:17 10/25/02 Fri
Hum interesting statements here. After rewatching Selfless last
night? I tend to agree and disagree.
"I don't know, from little things Willow has said this season,
it sounds like she's still not really convinced that sparing her
life and trying to rehabilitate her was a good idea. So I'm not
sure that Willow would be against killing Anya if Anya refused
to "convert," even though I think she would've been
very sad about it."
I think you are right - Willow isn't sure who she is any more.
This is made clear in this episode. She is a little afraid of
the darkness in her and wishes her friends had killed or punished
her.
OTOH - I think Dyna and others are right when they state that
Willow empathizes with Anyanka. Willow remember spoke with Anyanka
in STSP and heard that Anyanka wasn't happy with the vengeance
gig that it scared her, and most of all scared her in the same
way that Willow's magic scares Willow.
Willow didn't go with Buffy for several reasons:
1. She couldn't really help in the fight and her support was divided
at that point. She agreed with parts of what Buffy said and parts
of what Xander said.
2. Willow has over the years shown a tendency to shy away from
hypocrisy and judgemental behavior. Being human she makes mistakes.
But in rewatching Revelations last night where Willow/Xander/Giles
find out Angel is alive and well under Buffy's care. It's Willow
who accepts Buffy and forgives her and tells her that she can't
hold Buffy responsible for withholding things and secrets when
she's keeping one herself. To go with Buffy and help kill Anya
would be highly hypocritical of Willow. Also Willow must remember
how Anya tried to help her last year and tried to stop her without
killing her in Villians, Two to Go and Grave. Willow knows deep
down that what Anyanka did is no worse than what she did - she
admits as much to Anyanka.
3. Willow knows there might be another way but she's uncertain
about it and afraid to suggest it b/c Buffy will probably nix
it. Buffy doesn't want Willow to do any magic.
Re-watching this episode after seeing Revelations was an odd experience...I
realized that there's a ton going on and boy do the two episodes
echo each other. Xander in Revelations is in the cold role of
let's kill Angel, in Selfless - Buffy's in that role. But with
one major difference? Buffy actually appears kinder, more in pain,
and struggling with her decision, one she's clearly thought about
since she discovered Anya was a vengeance demon again. Xander
goes get Faith without thinking or listening to anyone in Revelations.
Watch the episode again if you haven't already. You'll see that
you literally can see it through several different pov's and each
is different. This is probably the most emotionally complex episode
we've seen this season and it is rapidly becoming one of my all
time favorities.
[> [> [> [> [>
reply and request -- yez, 10:25:03 10/25/02 Fri
"OTOH - I think Dyna and others are right when they state
that Willow empathizes with Anyanka. Willow remember spoke with
Anyanka in STSP and heard that Anyanka wasn't happy with the vengeance
gig that it scared her, and most of all scared her in the same
way that Willow's magic scares Willow."
Oh, yeah, I completely agree with that, as well as your statement
that Willow is sensitive to and tries to avoid hypocritical behavior,
in general. The Thanksgiving ep. where they have to fight the
avenging spirit of the Native American tribe that was wiped out
in Sunnydale and where Willow is outspoken in her refusal to help
Buffy springs to mind as another good example. But *if* Willow
does think that Buffy et al should've done her in instead of giving
her a second (third?) chance, then support for killing a nonrepentant
Anya wouldn't be hypocritical.
My girlfriend last night also suggested that maybe Willow stays
home *specifically* to have a talk with D'Hoffryn without interference
from Buffy. If so, that would be a second instance of Willow acting
independently in this ep., as Dyna pointed out with respect to
Willow approaching Anya before "telling on her." OTOH,
it could be that the idea to chat with D'Hoffryn didn't occur
to Willow until after she'd already decided to stay home. Who
knows?
I also agree this ep. was very emotionally complex -- and it's
my favorite, too, I think. So far. :)
I think you're right that *relatively speaking* the audience is
made more aware of Buffy's "struggles" with the issue
of a possible showdown with Anya than we were with Xander's support
of killing Angel. Personally, though, I wouldn't exactly characterize
her response as kind or even very much of a struggle. Buffy tells
Xander and Willow (and us) that the decision isn't easy for her.
But there didn't seem to be a whole lot of emotion to back that
up, particularly when, during the confrontation, Buffy goes in
with a total "your time is up" attitude from the get-go.
Contrast that with the Buffy/Willow showdown where there was much
"it doesn't have to be this way" going on from Buffy
-- at least at the beginning.
Don't get me wrong -- I *expected* that it would be a struggle
for Buffy to make this kind of decision. What I'm saying is that,
for me, the emotion didn't read. So at this point, I don't know
if that's the way the ME wanted it for some reason, or whether
SMG and the director just missed the target.
It would make sense for it to be a struggle. Buffy's had months
to think about Anya's "relapse" and what it would all
mean. From the first scene where Buffy finds out that Anya "has
her vengeance on" again, she says (paraphrase) "Look,
Anya, I need to know if you're going to help us or not."
And Anya's response wasn't very reassuring ("I'll help --
for Willow."). Then a couple of eps. ago during the worm-boy
incident, Buffy makes what I took to be a clear threat against
Anya -- when the Scoobs show up at The Bronze to question Anya,
Buffy lays a sword/dagger down between them on the table before
asking the questions.
So, has Buffy been thinking about it and weighing the options?
Yes. Does she *say* it was a hard decision? Yes. Do we SEE her
having a hard time with it? Nope, and that kind of discredits
what she says. Lecturing to disagreeable Scoobs about why she
has to do what she's going to doesn't constitute emotional struggle.
Btw, Shadowkat (and others), I was wondering if you had any thoughts
on why it's been important for us to suddenly see Anya's fighting
side. I posted on this ("Anya straps it on (spoilers for
all seasons) -- yez; now in archive page 2), but didn't get any
takers. Anyway, it's been bothering me and I was hoping to get
other opinions. So, if you get a minute. Thanks.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
[> She talked the talk... -- auroramama, 11:25:28
10/25/02 Fri
...but she couldn't walk the walk until she'd let Anyanka hurt
her for a while.
Buffy comes in all, "This is it." Very threatening.
But she doesn't strike first -- she lets Anyanka do it. Buffy
gets tossed around the room for a couple of minutes. Anyanka seems
to be enjoying the fight. *Then* Buffy says, "I'm sorry."
And then she starts fighting for real.
She couldn't actually try to kill Anyanka until Anyanka had whacked
her a few times. (Just like Angel had to be hit a few times in
order to weaken his control over the demon and get Buffy bitten
against Angel's will.) She lets the fight activate the Slayer
in her. And that's when we see her real feelings (I had no trouble
hearing her emotions in that brief line): when she believes she's
actually going to kill Anyanka. Until then, she was concentrating
on the facade.
An unusual discussion at a slash con about casual sex forced me
to think about the possibility of a fulfilling, self-contained
conversation between bodies rather than minds, or at least a non-verbal
conversation between the non-verbal portions of two people's minds.
This is Buffy's characteristic and truest medium (body language,
not casual sex, though they can be related), and people need to
understand it in order to read her. (I'm thinking not only of
Spike but of Xander -- both creatures of the heart who play with
words but can't always find the right ones.) We who are watching
can't necessarily hear everything she has to say, because some
of it isn't visually obvious: the pressure of her hand, the beat
of her heart, the shift of her weight. But I'm willing to say
that in this case Buffy needed to 'hear' Anyanka's willingness
to kill her in order to reply in kind. Until then, her kicks and
punches said, "I'm not ready."
I've been wondering for days what Buffy would have done if Anyanka
had refused to fight. (Had 'kept changing the subject' by arguing,
pleading, or running away.) What do people think?
auroramama
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: She talked the talk... -- shadowkat, 11:48:18
10/25/02 Fri
"An unusual discussion at a slash con about casual sex forced
me to think about the possibility of a fulfilling, self-contained
conversation between bodies rather than minds, or at least a non-verbal
conversation between the non-verbal portions of two people's minds.
This is Buffy's characteristic and truest medium (body language,
not casual sex, though they can be related), and people need to
understand it in order to read her. (I'm thinking not only of
Spike but of Xander -- both creatures of the heart who play with
words but can't always find the right ones.) We who are watching
can't necessarily hear everything she has to say, because some
of it isn't visually obvious: the pressure of her hand, the beat
of her heart, the shift of her weight. But I'm willing to say
that in this case Buffy needed to 'hear' Anyanka's willingness
to kill her in order to reply in kind. Until then, her kicks and
punches said, "I'm not ready."
I've been wondering for days what Buffy would have done if Anyanka
had refused to fight. (Had 'kept changing the subject' by arguing,
pleading, or running away.) What do people think?"
Thanks auroramama - you basically answered both yez's points and
better than I could.
That Buffy was hesistant about killing Anyanka - going so far
as to apologize and holding back.
The reason Anyanka is shown putting on the demon and fighting
is to make us aware that she is a force to be reckoned with -
we have forgotten. Also to make the SG aware. It's clear from
her discussion with Willow and the interaction with Xander - that
they have no clue how powerful a vengeance demon is. She didn't
seem that powerful to them at the end of last year.
So what would have happened if Anyanka hadn't fought Buffy?
I'm not sure. Would Buffy have killed her? We may never know.
My guess? Possibly...if Anyanka didn't mention the desire to change.
I'm also uncertain whether Anya really needed Buffy to piece her
with a sword to want to back the wish. I think she was halfway
there already - why did she return to the scene of the crime otherwise?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: She talked the talk... -- alcibiades,
12:18:23 10/25/02 Fri
I'm also uncertain whether Anya really needed Buffy to piece
her with a sword to want to back the wish. I think she was halfway
there already - why did she return to the scene of the crime otherwise?
That's why I think Xander's assessment of Anya -- which others
have dismissed as his prejudice through the eyes of love is correct.
Love can see clearly. Anya was feeling major ambivalence about
what she did -- we see this in the opening where she can't wash
her hands from blood.
Here Anya comes back because though she has told a hard edged
Willow she doesn't want to change -- in fact, once Anya let her
defensiveness down, she wanted to face what she had done.
Anyanka puts on her demon face as a way of putting on a mask before
Buffy -- at this point, it is perfectly clear, she doesn't want
to kill Buffy. Like Spike with white Buffy, Anya also can't ask
Xander for his help - even when Xander, unlike black Buffy - offers
it. And unlike Spike, who can admit to white Buffy he is in trouble,
Anya here has too much pride even to do that. She knows it is
true though.
And Anya also knows the confrontation between herself and Buffy
is going to result in a death. She doesn't want it to be Buffy.
Like Willow, she feels she deserves the punishment --
And the demon mask will provoke Buffy into fighting and killing
her. When Buffy pulls out the sword, she taunts her -- you know
better than that, Buffy.
But it is a mask -- a costume -- just like the one that Spike
puts on in the Bronze when he is facing Buffy because he doesn't
want Buffy to guess about the soul, and she won't guess if he
looks like a demon.
Anya doesn't want Buffy to see her truly at that point. She puts
up a mask to get Buffy to react to her as the slayer reacting
not to a friend but to a demon.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Conversing in body language -- Humanitas, 14:29:37
10/25/02 Fri
An unusual discussion at a slash con about casual sex forced
me to think about the possibility of a fulfilling, self-contained
conversation between bodies rather than minds, or at least a non-verbal
conversation between the non-verbal portions of two people's minds.
It is certainly possible, at least in fiction, to tell a story
using nothing but physicality. That's one of the the highest goals
to which a fight choreographer can aspire, in fact, and I assume
it could be done with sex, as well.
Ideally, every fight reveals something about the characters, rather
than being simply a display of technique. That's really hard to
do in a show which contains as much violence as BtVS, but I really
tought that they did a good job in this episode. I watched that
fight, and my first thought was, "Buffy's heart isn't really
into this." Her whole body dynamic, from her stance down
to her choice of moves, just screamed "I don't really want
to kill her. I have to, and I will, but I have no desire for it."
And I thought Anya's dynamic was suicidal, not in the crazy sense,
but in the sense of "I'm gonna push her and push her until
she kills me." They didn't say any of this, but it was still
crystal clear, at least to me.
Even better, the story told made you think about the human condition.
Given that the choice to engage in violence (always a serious
decision, even in the Buffyverse) has been made, the notion that
neither one really wants to win the fight speaks volumes about
their states of mind, and asks some very serious questions about
how they got into this situation, and about the usefulness of
violence in solving problems.
Kudos to both the choreographer and the performers involved, for
a story well-told.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Conversing in body language -- aliera,
17:30:50 10/25/02 Fri
Yes. I agree and that was my perception of the fight, as well.
I apologize if this was already mentioned, since I haven't read
the entire thread. But, I was surprised that Buffy would have
forgotten than Anya couldn't be killed by "a sword through
the chest", especially if (as she said) she had been thinking
about the necessity of having to kill Anya throughout the summer.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Another terrific possibility-- -- HonorH, 23:35:19
10/25/02 Fri
As Sang pointed out in the "suicide by cop" thread up
a ways, it might be, too, that Buffy, on some level, felt she
deserved punishment for this. She wanted to be hurt, because yet
again, she was going up against someone she cared about.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Very interesting, but don't think it works here.
-- yez, 08:48:11 10/26/02 Sat
I thought this was a really interesting post. Actually very romantic
ideas and something that I would like to believe. But I rewatched
the fight scene last night after reading this. It's true that
Anya strikes the first blow -- but it's to knock *Xander* out
from between her and Buffy. (Buffy tells him to get out of the
way, then Anya tells him to get out of the way and knocks him
away.) As soon as Xander's out of the way, Buffy rushes Anya and
starts swinging her sword -- so Buffy strikes first.
I'd *like* to believe that Buffy was reading Anya's body language
to see how serious she was, but I guess I can't. Unfortunately.
To me, Anya seemed to be using pretty direct verbal language as
well as body language -- and Anya's never really been one for
subtlety or tact. And if ME was trying to add that layer of "self-contained
conversation between bodies rather than minds" (which I think
is a wonderful concept, btw, very romantic as applied to the Slayer),
then because of the medium, verbal cues still have to be given
as to what's going on and/or that has to be conveyed in more careful
choreography and filming so that we can see that non-verbal conversation.
Because if the audience can't see it and is never told about it,
then for all intents and purposes, it isn't happening. I guess,
though, if we can apply this extra read over what we are presented
with and if it fits, then it can enrich what we're seeing; not
only is suspension of disbelief necessary to consuming the story,
but audience imagination and interpretation can also help *create*
the story. This will be something I'll think about when watching
or thinking about what I've seen from now on. But in this particular
scene, for me, it doesn't fit.
"But I'm willing to say that in this case Buffy needed to
'hear' Anyanka's willingness to kill her in order to reply in
kind. Until then, her kicks and punches said, "I'm not ready.""
My second and third viewings confirmed my initial opinion on this,
so here's my take: Buffy was taken off guard by Anya's fighting
abilities, resulting in some Buffy bashing, but once Buffy got
a feel for Anya's ability and style, then Buffy was better able
to fight back and turn the tables.
Also, I'd been puzzled by Buffy's strike through the heart because
I was assuming that Buffy would remember how Halfrek recovered
from that. But I watched Buffy's reaction shot closely after Anya
regains consciousness and pulls the sword out... and much to my
own surprise (and confusion), it looked to me like Buffy looked
*surprised* that Anya wasn't dead. I don't know... All I can think
is that it was more important for ME to get in the symbolic strike
through the heart (Anya's broken heart having led her, twice,
to the VD fold, etc.) than to maintain continuity.
Anyway, rambling... With respect to: "I've been wondering
for days what Buffy would have done if Anyanka had refused to
fight. (Had 'kept changing the subject' by arguing, pleading,
or running away.) What do people think?"
I think it would've made a difference what the alternative would've
been -- whether Anya ran away or pleaded, for example. If Anya
poofed and ran, I think Buffy would've chased her down -- unless
Anya fled Sunnydale. Buffy's the sheriff in "these here parts"
but never really goes on field trips, so it's important to have
the villains stick around the Hellmouth like moths around the
porchlight. If Anya had pleaded for another chance and offered
up ideas for how to fix things, then I think Buffy would've let
her try. That's why it seemed so weird to me that Buffy never
tried to start a dialogue -- she just started "hacking away."
Anya's line to Xander really struck me on every viewing, (paraphrase)
"I should've massacred people weeks ago" in response
to him and Buffy coming to deal with her. This helped reinforce
my read that part of Anya's fight involved anger toward Buffy.
Sheesh, I've gone on and on here, sorry.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> I re-watched it last night and reached the
opposite conclusion. LOL. -- Sophist, 10:13:39 10/26/02
Sat
I watched it again last night just to look for some of the points
made in this thread (auroramama's and Willow's role). I think
the sequence of the fight supports auroramama's view.
When Buffy entered the room, Xander was talking to Anya. Buffy
did nothing. Anya then announces she's not going to change. At
that point, Buffy tells Xander to get out of the way. He doesn't,
and Anya also tells him to get out of the way and punches him.
Only then did Buffy begin to get physical.
Even then, I thought she was holding back. In fact, my wife (who
was watching the episode for the first time and is unaware of
the discussion here) asked me why Buffy wasn't trying. I don't
think she underestimated Anya. She had seen Halfrek in OAFA and
Anya herself wipe out Spike in BY. Buffy was reluctant (as I said
above in response to alcibiades).
If Anya had pleaded for another chance and offered up ideas
for how to fix things, then I think Buffy would've let her try.
That's why it seemed so weird to me that Buffy never tried to
start a dialogue -- she just started "hacking away."
The key is that Anya hadn't reached that point. It took Buffy's
stab to the heart to force the decision from Anya. Before that,
dialogue was useless; that was the point of having both Xander
and Willow try to intervene.
Anya's line to Xander really struck me on every viewing, (paraphrase)
"I should've massacred people weeks ago" in response
to him and Buffy coming to deal with her. This helped reinforce
my read that part of Anya's fight involved anger toward Buffy.
Anger, yes, but not towards Buffy per se. I think more frustration
at her inability to decide who she was. But if you extend it to
include anger at the entire SG for not helping her earlier (ignoring
her refusal of such help), then I'd agree.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Agreeing, and parallels to "Beneath
you" (Spoilers for Help and Beneath You) -- Rahael, 10:54:31
10/26/02 Sat
Really posting to say that I agree with Sophist.
I think in Season 7, we are going to see very complex portrayals
of all the lead characters. Spike, Buffy, Anya, Willow, Xander,
Dawn - they are all going to be a little scary, but very watchable
and strong and complex. Heroic also, but in a more ambiguous way
than ever before.
Last night, I managed to see my first full ep of Season 7, Beneath
You. I've managed to see nearly everything of "Lessons"
but the very last part (Arghhh!)!
Anyway, there two points that made my jaw drop open in Beneath
You. The point when SPike put a bar through Ronnie, just as he
turned Human, and his entire conversation with Buffy in the church.
The reason why I think there is a parallel between Buffy stabbing
Anya through the heart, and Spike stabbing Ronnie through his
heart, is that when I saw the Spike Ronnie scenes, I immediately
though "Oh, my gosh, Spike is fighting himself. He puts on
his demon face to fight the demon sluggoth. And then, just as
he stabs him in the heart (siginficant place, I feel), the worm
turns into a very pale, fragile human. And his pain seems to parallel
Spike's own pain. They both scream at the same time.
And when I read that Buffy stabs Anya through the heart, I started
wondering why the heart, in an ep where Anya rips out hearts.
And I wondered who Halfrek represented. After watching Beneath
you, I realised that there is no substitute for actually watching
these eps. So until then, all my comments on the unseen ones will
simply be questions, and not rhetorical ones.
(Now taking the opportunity to ramble OT'ly about Beneath You)
Most of the posts I read not having watched the ep just washed
by me, so I can only vaguely recollect that it might have been
Age who suggested that Ronnie and SPike are clearly paralleled.
Our pasts will always erupt. Our hearts will play traitors. It
seemed to address the troubled history of all the main characters.
Their painful, messy relationships. The lies, the secrets, the
untold pain. The monster burrowing its way under the tarmac.
As for the Buffy-coldness thing, when I watched that scene, I
just saw two strong, complex characters playing their part in
a powerful and moving scene. I just don't watch scenes like that
to take sides. I will admit though I shed tears for Spike, but
only for his own actions, and the place he'd led himself to. His
torment is pitiable. (Both the scenes in the alley and the church)
But I have to say that his scenes in the Bronze were kind of shocking.
Hitting Anya like that? eeeesh! So kudos to ME for making such
a rounded and complex character of him! I like a charismatic character
who can be so unpredictable. 's why I liked Cordelia.
Anyway, I've started liking the Spike story again. In fact, reading
wildfeeds, I started liking Spike's story again, before, predictably,
it started draining away in the face of certain posts. But at
least this time I have actual scenes I can rewatch.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> We are seeing how the Scoobies' attitudes about fighting
are changing. -- Arethusa, 11:59:46 10/25/02 Fri
Xander has learned empathy for demons by loving Anya, and he can't
fight her. His hatred of demons might have been black and white,
but it gave him strength when all he had to fight was a scared
guy with a large rock. He's not so B&W now, and he can't fight
the demon he loves.
Willow now realizes the enormous threat in the combination of
powerful magic and irresponsible use. Because her empathy for
Anya is so strong, she can't fight either, but because she now
knows how powerful she is, she has the confidence to form
her own plan and carry it out without Buffy, as well as face D'Hoffryn
and ask for his help.
Buffy, as others stated, has learned that having feeling for demons
leads to pain, so she refuses to let her emotions interfere with
her duty. She's in full Slayer mode. Buffy is, however, able to
talk to Xander about what it costs her to kill, especially those
she cares about-something she could not do in the past.
[> Completely fascinating
- I'll have to think about this. -- Dedalus, 12:42:04 10/23/02
Wed
[> Re: Heart, Spirit, Mind
and Hands spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- Cecilia, 13:11:39
10/23/02 Wed
I agree completely and you touched on something that has been
in the back of mind for quite some time. If I may I would like
to touch on and expand an idea I posted below as a response to
Earl Allison's "Was Buffy right in regards to Anyanka?"
"...She has said it many times, she does what she has
to..."
"...Her vision in the desert told her she was full of love.
I don't think she even now realizes that, not truly..."
"...she still doesn't realize that in order to do what she
does, she must do it with love..."
So if I might extrapolate from your post/idea and incorporate
it with mine, then she will this year find her heart. She will
be complete.
She inherently has the ability/strength of the Hand. She is the
slayer, she has physical prowess and strength. By the end of Season
5 she had found/regained Spirit. By the end of Season 6, she had
found/regained Mind. Therefore, by the conclusion of Season 7
(the reported end of the journey, so to speak) she will have found/regained
Heart.
Hand, Mind, Spirit and Heart. The four elements, if you will,
of the Slayer. Or, to extrapolate further, the four elements of
Good. If, as you suggest, "the thing beneath is the heart
of evil", it already possesses the necessary components
or elements of Evil. Good vs Evil (the concept, not the tv show,
folks). It remains the only thing that has not been explored as
far as the Big Bad. The physical embodiment/manifestation of pure
Evil. We have seen physical things that were evil, but not on
this scale. Perhaps the ultimate battle is to be fought.
Maybe I'm getting carried away but I have always believed that
"Restless" was the most pivotal and important episode
of the entire series. Your interpretation is the closest articulation
to what was rattling around in my brain.
[> [> Thanks...agree
as well -- shadowkat, 17:37:57 10/23/02 Wed
And I read your post on the way home today...also brief scan on
the board...so I think part of it got incorporated in mine anyways.
I think you are right...I think Buffy will somehow through the
challenges of this year rediscover her heart. And along with her...will
the others. They will either help her find it again, or they will
find it together and fight the thing that embodies the heart of
evil.
What is the heart of evil? Is it the absence of love?
Is it despair? Loneliness? Selfishness? Vengeance?
Mercilessness? Coldness? And how have each of our characters fed
it over the years? Is it feeding off of their anguish? And growing
stronger?
I agree Restless is the pivotal episode. Actually there are three
episodes, possibly four that I feel are pivotal to seeing the
series right now:
Becoming I-II arc.
Restless/Primeval
Graduation Day I & II
Who Are You/This Year's Girl
Each have dreams. Each change the characters. And each
are brought up again.
We already addressed Becoming.
But little miss muffet counting down to 730 was in Graduation
day.
Little sis is coming is in This Year's Girl...and after
Faith/Buffy trade spots...Buffy hardens her heart just abit more.
Also Spike's sexual attraction to Buffy is introduced in Who are
you.
We've already addressed Restless.
If you're a newbie? And haven't seen them? Strongly advise catching
these episodes or at least summaries of them - the transcripts
are at Psyche Transcripts (go to the links at top of the board
to find it) and summaries are available on Atpobtvs under episode
index.
[> Live from Budapest, it's
a BUFFY fan who just can't stay away... -- cjl (who's using
precious internet cafe time), 13:25:41 10/23/02 Wed
Hi guys. Just peeked in, and saw s'kat's essay, and couldn't resist.
Looks like I've missed a juicy couple of weeks, but I'll be back
on Monday, I'll get my tapes, and I'll be able to leap in again.
Wonderful essay. I'll Check in when I get back! On to Prague!
[> [> Hi! **waving**
--Hurry back! -- Wisewoman ;o), 17:12:49 10/23/02 Wed
We miss you!
dub ;o)
[> You can talk to your
mother about Buffy??! -- Deb, 13:25:50 10/23/02 Wed
I was raised by two engineers. It was really cold around my house.
At a family dinner I started talking about "The Wizard of
Oz" and the fact that Dorothy herself was a witch (of the
south). Looked up and all eyes were on me (everyone looked kinda
like Spike after the "Worm change incident" -- horrified,
mortified. At the time I wished I could dust myself and fly away.)
Geez, I'm amazed. I'm sorry.
I think what you wrote is so insightful. I've been hesitant to
mention it because of what is happening in D.C. area, but the
archetypical stories represented by the Tarot are playing out.
At one point, Buffy was standing in one pose of the Queen of Swords
(Swords being the quickening of the mind) This woman usually is
not married and is considered heartless. She wears armour (leather)
and holds a sword. She hasn't learned how to balance mercy with
punishment yet or she would be Justice, and the story would begin
again.
Wow, I still can't believe you talked to your mother long distance
about Buffy. Please don't allow yourself to become consumed with
fictional characters on a television show (albeit an exellent
TV show). Storytelling is about learning the lessons about relationship,
etc. to apply to your life. . . How old is your mother? Does she
watch Buffy too?
[> [> Re: You can talk
to your mother about Buffy??! -- shadowkat, 17:23:28 10/23/02
Wed
"Wow, I still can't believe you talked to your mother long
distance about Buffy. Please don't allow yourself to become consumed
with fictional characters on a television show (albeit an exellent
TV show). Storytelling is about learning the lessons about relationship,
etc. to apply to your life. . . How old is your mother? Does she
watch Buffy too?"
uh just turned 60. Yep she watches and tapes it. She taped
Help and loved it, while I still feel uneasy with my dislike of
it. (Too many bad guidance counselors in my past, so the Buffster
pushed the buttons). My mother remains convinced after watching
HELP three times (without closed captioning) that Cassie's line
to Spike was: "She'll tell you...someday she'll tell you
she loves you."
We argued about it again last night. I got her hooked on the series
last Thanksgiving. I was going through a bad time. So went down
there and watched a Buffy marathon on FX.
But she actually got hooked on OMWF. My mother likes fantasy and
serials and vampires and musicals. She used to watch Dark Shadows
as a kid and saw Frank Langella in the Broadway play Dracula as
well as the film.
Not consumed with the show...just enjoying it. (I still haven't
bought any Btvs paraphenila outside of OMWF CD
and I just write essays...;-) )
[> [> [> I think that's
really great -- Deb, 19:11:11 10/23/02 Wed
My mom is 62 and is in bed at night by 8. I keep telling her about
Tina Turner, etc. from her generation, and she needs to have some
kind of interest.
[> [> [> Re: You can
talk to your mother about Buffy??! -- Sarand, 20:51:22
10/23/02 Wed
Oh, I love it, your mother's a shipper. Cool.
[> Re: Heart, Spirit, Mind
and Hands spec (spoilers 7.5 Btvs) -- Rufus, 18:41:33 10/23/02
Wed
First off I really loved last night's episode. Except for the
spider bit which I can't watch. I have a spider phobia. Absolutely
terrified of them. Though my mother said it didn't really look
much like a spider to her. So I hid my eyes or retreated to go
to the bathroom while the spider was on. May see it on a rewatching.
Outside of that? My favorite episode next to Beneath You this
year. Actually I think I liked it better than Beneath You - almost
cried. Didn't. Takes a lot to get me to cry. Only The Body does
that to me.
Hey, I get that....I hate spiders though I don't have to run to
the loo to escape the ones onscreen...I do have a friend that
has nearly pierced my eardrums on the phone while she started
to scream cause she saw a mouse on TV.
3. Season 7 is all about heart - how a sick heart can hurt
the mind, spirit, hands. What would we do without the heart. The
heart is what connects all the parts of the body, it is what makes
it possible for the brain to function, the hands to move via circulation
and it's where our souls reside. The heart is the metaphorical
center of our emotions.
Heart, it's something that can be followed or ignored. All the
characters in the Buffyverse have that side of them that makes
them want to burst with love, only some stopped listening to the
heart when they became hurt for whatever reason...we know that
Anya stopped feeling and listening to what her heart said because
she had been spurned. Vampires stop listening to their hearts
in regards to what they once were....living to blot out what the
Old Ones hated...great curse!
With no heart? We aren't motivated. A heartless Buffy is just
a killer. Right and wrong become black and white she can't distinquish
them. "I am the LAw!" - the law can often be heartless.
The law, as most lawyers know is often merciless. The law does
NOT forgive - it enacts punishment.
From season five, we know that Buffy is full of love, but she
tends to fear the love that almost makes her burst. The Slayer
is not only a killer but they are also alone in how they mete
out the law. The cops are useless because they deal with a reality
that doesn't allow for the existance of what Buffy deals with.....and
they would only bring useless old guns to a metaphysical fight.
Buffy is extremely conflicted this year because where she is in
her life she is having to deal with a wound as deep as the thrust
of the sword she gave to Angel and Anya. Part of her heart had
to be turned off to be able to kill both parties. But part of
her is still full of the hope that there is an alternative. Xander
was surprised to hear that Buffy could make up her mind about
killing Anya in 10 seconds.....well that's about as much time
as some cops have in a dangerous situation to decide to use or
not use their guns. Buffy had gone over all the alternatives she
felt she had only to realize that she simply couldn't find one.
Xander couldn't either. Willow was the one who found the way by
finding D'Hoffryn.....I wonder what conversation they had, cause
gee, if anyone could have killed both D'Hoffryn and Anya, it would
be Willow. So, my question is how did Willow get D'Hoffryn to
intervene? Was there a price that we don't know about?
No to Spike. To be fair to all I have to see Spike as both evil
and good, just like all the other characters. I don't have to
assume that Buffy has gone evil because she didn't aid Spike in
Help, or that she finds the memory of the AR has prevented her
from being more consoling to the vampire with a returned soul.
Spike is a threat to Buffy because she is now reliving that pain,
that wound of killing Angel in Becoming 2. She knows that as demons
(Anya, Spike), no matter how much they help the cause, or how
much she may care for them, the world comes first, comes before
her heart. I noticed two things....the spider couldn't take Buffy's
heart...and at the end she was the one who encouraged Xander to
run after Anya. Buffy walks a line I'd hate to be in. She is many
things...mother, sister, friend....but in the end she is alone
because she is The Slayer.
[> [> Don't entirely
disagree...some clarification. -- shadowkat, 06:18:19 10/24/02
Thu
Okay...let me try to make my thoughts regarding Buffy as "appearing"
as heartless clearer here.
Last year Buffy thought she came back wrong - she had no soul.
Or spirit. She felt disconnected to the world.
Willow symbolizes Buffy's Spirit...and Willow was being corrupted.
The corruption of the spirit cut off the hands, hence all the
cut off hand imagery. But Buffy learns she didn't come back wrong
and her spirit is still intact, just a little sick - she gets
better, the spirit is healed by the heart. Xander - the heart
makes it clear to Buffy that Spike/Buffy won't work because Spike
may be all heart but no spirit - the spirit is gone. Spike is
motivated by his passion to hurt Buffy and by his heart (love)
to seek out his spirit which will temper that pain. But in seeking
out the spirit he becomes sick in mind and wounded in heart. Just
like Angel?
In Becoming - regaining the spirit - he becomes sick in mind and
heart. And Xander in saving Willow's spirit has been weakened
in the heart, he was weakened when he lost Anya. Just as in becoming
Xander is weakened in the heart by being confused over whether
he truly loves Willow/Cordy and reacting with jealousy towards
Angel and hurting Willow in Buffy's eyes.
The year before - Buffy felt the mind was off. We had her mother
sick in the head. Dawn's implanted memories drove Buffy nuts.
Buffy retreated literally inside her own head.
Willow the spirit had to enter Buffy's head in WOTW and pull her
out again. Giles relies solely on his mind and sees the rational
response is to kill Dawn. He also kills
Ben by suffocation to the mind or head. Giles - mind - dislikes
Spike's involvement but sees it as rational b/c like Buffy says
he has the power. Giles is stabbed close to the heart in Spiral
and it's Ben's mental abilities that heal him. Buffy uses her
spirit to resolve the conflict in The Gift and sacrifices it to
end the chaos caused by the mind.
Now we come to Season 7...Buffy's heartless demeanor is as much
a mislead here as her soulless demeanor was last year.
Remember how many people last year were predicting Buffy would
be the Big Bad? Same group probably predicted it after Buffy vs.
Dracula. Not going to happen...if you think about it objectively
and logically. That's a mislead.
She appears heartless here, just as she appeared soulless
last year, and confused in Season 5. She's not. The
writers are showing how we must overcome our self-doubts, our
insecurities and acknowledge our strengths.
Buffy like you state is full of love. But she is afraid it's gone,
frozen, she's afraid she can't help anyone that all she can do
is kill. I think each episode this season has explored how she
may appear that way on one level but if you look deeper maybe
isn't. The thing about Btvs is it operates on more than two levels
- the mislead or surface, and deeper one, the truth.
Buffy may have appeared to be heartless with Spike - yet as many
people stated the mere fact she came down there and told him he
needed to leave the basement is ironically anything but heartless.
If she were truly "heartless" she would never make the
effort. If she were truly "heartless" she'd either ignore
him or stake him outright. It just appears like she is on the
surface. The compassionate Buffy may be worse (my mother the shipper
disliked the compassionate Buffy - she's not much of a shipper
I'm afraid) - because all that girl is doing is leading him on
and allowing him to worry.
The same with Anya. A heartless Buffy would have killed Anya without
discussing it with Xander or letting Xander go there first. A
heartless Buffy wouldn't have let Xander get in the way. She appears
heartless to us and D'Hoffryn makes it sound like she is. Yet...as
many posters pointed out, she should know that a sword to the
heart wouldn't kill Anya any more than it killed Halfrek the year
before.
It's the mislead.
Buffy sees herself as sick in the heart - so as a result do we.
Buffy sees herself as sick in the mind - so do we
Buffy sees herself as sick in the spirit - so do we
See? It's through the eyes of Buffy that we see her.
And see the other characters partly. And boy what a cool psychological
mick f&*k.
SK
[> |Based on Shadowkat's
thoughts: a Buffy schematic for Hand, Heart, Spirit, Mind.
-- Tchaikovsky, 05:03:42 10/24/02 Thu
Here we go then:
SEASONS 1-3: HAND
Buffy overcomes her major nesmesisisis with the Hand technique.
The Master by fighting. Angel by fighting. The Mayor by fighting
with others. The pattern is repeated through high school. The
Slayer's physical gift over demons IS a parallel to the courage
and action needed by teenagers to get through high school. This
falls apart in
SEASON 4: HAND displaced by UNION
Buffy, with the Scooby Gang fragmenting, must go it alone, (or
feels she must). But it doesn't work. She can't defeat Adam all
by herself. It is established that all four 'human elements' must
be incorporated. MIND, SPIRIT, HEART, SOUL. This is established
in the pivotal episode Restless, which, at Episode no. 78 of the
144 possible, is close enough to half way through. It's also the
only episode which is in an (abstract) sense between seasons.
In all other Seasons the Big Bad is defeated in the Finale. If
we take 'Primeval' as being Season Four Finale, then 'Restless'
is in limbo-land, suspended only in the atmosphere of its own
genius.
SEASON 5: MIND displaced by SPIRIT
Giles, after a mid-life crisis in Season Five, is the 'boss' in
this Season. He's the grown-up. The one everyone looks up to.
He finds out about the Key, and solves numerous problems.
But in 'The Gift', the mind part, working alone, fails. Giles'
rational decision is to kill Dawn. Buffy knows it isn't right,
and so martyrs herself. The ultimate diaplay of spirit.
SEASON 6: SPIRIT displaced by HEART
Willow is 'boss of us'. She has 'the power'. She uses it to solve
many problems. But. It takes her over. It is acting without the
courage of good emotions. Xander must save her, using 'his mouth',
but more importantly, his heart.
SEASON 7: HEART displaced by HAND
We're going back to the beginning. Back to the hand. Currently,
Xander is a boss, of a sort. He is directly or indirectly responsible
for the denouement of the first two episodes. He is '00!Xander',
the person in control of his job, and his life, telling people
his emotions. But, ultimately, in a classic Buffy subversion,
it won't be enough. Xander, (the man) will be the damsel in distress.
Buffy, (the knight in shining armour), will save him and the world,
by fighting. Equilibrium regained. Buffy and Xander marry.
THE END
But wait: what's this about Dawn the Vampire Slayer?
TCH
PS All season Seven thoughts unpoiled. Not fact.
[> [> Good thoughts...except
for the shippiness ;-) -- shadowkat, 06:35:41 10/24/02
Thu
Ah...I never knew a B/X shipper lurked beneath your surface. ;-)
Sorry no shippiness by then. When the end happens marriage/love
will be the last thing on these characters
minds. Mark my words.
Also remember this is a tragedy... it's more likely Xander will
lose the love of his life, whomever that is, than gain it. I don't
foresee a happy Xander at seasons end.
[> [> [> No shippiness
intended!! -- Tchaikovsky, 07:42:15 10/24/02 Thu
Shadowkat: I decided to write the Season Seven section as if it
was cast in stone. But it occurred to me towards the end of the
paragraph that I was being way too specific, and that predicting
this readily was bound to end in disaster when it was quoted back
to me. So I thought I'd put the Xander/Buffy thing in as a slightly
ironic comment on my apparent Cassie-like clairvoyance for what
will happen.
You should know I'm not a Xander/Buffy shipper- I'm a Giles/Dawn
shipper.
TCH
[> [> [> [> G/D?
..uhm kidding right? (trying to picture that) ;-) -- shadowkat,
08:02:50 10/24/02 Thu
[> Re: Amazing! Now I see..
(general spoilers S4-S7) -- Sang, 11:52:07 10/24/02 Thu
It is a great perspective. Now I can see how writers in ME is
using the theme of Restless.
S5. Mind - Brain, you are right, it was all about mind. Brain
sucking Glory. Out of mind Spike. Joyce's death by brain tumor.
Willow's journey to Buffy's lost mind.
S6. Spirit - Magic, Buffy who lost her will to live. Willow's
magic problem. Spirit of earth from Coven. Spike's spiritual change.
People in DMP who lost all of their spirits. Xander's unfortunate
decision. And of course, a bullet took the 'light' away from Willow.
And S7 is all about heart.
I didn't see that before. Thanks.
[> Re: Nice job with "heart
thread" but I thought this was about redemption -- Pamela,
14:20:30 10/24/02 Thu
You mentioned that Buffy was on a journey. Over the years we've
found that each of our characters are on journeys -- the struggling
hero kind of journey. This journey with all of the pitfalls and
sidetracks that make each of us out here watching in TV land,
wonder what the heck is going on this year!
About each person's redemption -
Willow: attempting redemption from her addiction (without the
proper training/discipline in the black arts). We also know that
there's a piece of her, that must blame herself for how her actions
changed the relationship with Tara.
Xander: attempting redemption for wavering his role as adult male,
and husband. (and how it impacted the woman he truly loves). We've
seen him really step into a more confident & grown-up role so
far this season -- I'm thinking, so it can measure up.
Spike: the biggest journey of redemption. He has come a long,
long way. He has yet to learn that personal growth is for himself
-- not for Buffy (and he won't get her until he realizes he's
doing it for him. I expect to see a really bumpy road w/ backslides
most of this season)
Buffy: nearly as large a journey as Spike. Her only plan for redemption
is to learn who/what she really is and wants. And (like Spike)
stop trying to convince herself into being and wanting (or not
wanting) what she thinks she's supposed to be like. Once she comes
to understand that she can actually love a man and they won't
leave her - if she truly loves herself too....she's got it made.
(what we won't know is whether it winds up being with Spike or
some other someone new)
Dawn: her redemption is sort of a mini version of Buffy. Dawn
also pushes away what she wants most. (for her it's the love and
respect of Buffy right now. but Dawn has to love learn how to
lover herself too).
Anya: is well on her way now -- because at least, Anya has decided
to let go of what those things that don't define her any longer.
(I'm so sorry to learn that this will be Emma's last season as
a regular -- but I'm hopeful that we'll see a non-tragic ending
for this person who has made the biggest strides recently).
Giles: His redemption is realizing how valuable he is. How much
he matters.
I'd like to read how you tie the "heart" theme up with
"redemption". I don't know how to nail the 2 themes
down, but if you do, I'll bet its some interesting stuff.
[> [> Future casting
spoiler above -- Indri, 15:54:33 10/24/02 Thu
[> [> [> Indri you
must know something I don't (no known casting spoilers) --
Pamela, 16:39:54 10/24/02 Thu
You alerted people about future casting spoilers in my comment.
No where did I suggest anyone would be in a future cast. But...if
you know something about this. let us know!
I'm simply suggesting ways that our regular cast members (and
those whom semi-regularly appear) might find redemption.
Or was this for a response further up the thread?
Anyway...do tell! I'm all ears!
[> [> [> [> I was
thinking of this from your post: -- Indri, 16:52:58 10/24/02
Thu
"I'm so sorry to learn that this will be Emma's last season
as a regular"
I myself know nothing. Sorry if I've misinterpreted.
[> [> [> [> [>
Ummmmmm yup that was from an interview.....spoiler reference
-- Rufus, 20:44:48 10/24/02 Thu
That Emma gave, but as we know people can change their minds......:)
[> [> Redemption & Heart
& Identity (Spoilers for Grave and 7.5 Btvs, no future spoilers)
-- shadowkat, 06:31:56 10/25/02 Fri
Ahhh an opportunity to post thoughts that rattled in my brain
last night after rewatching Selfless. By the way changed my mind
on Buffy - she really isn't heartless in the episode, she just
appears to be from the other characters pov's. Re-watch Revelations
from Season 3, it helps put you in Buffy's pov long enough to
realize that she's not cold or heartless at all (she just appears
to be on a first viewing...second viewing na da.)
Now to your question regarding how redemption fits into all of
this - sorry for the ramble:
Redemption is smaller theme and not the main one, it's a thread
that flows through both shows underneath the surface and at times
over it. And has been brought up each year. But is by no means
the main theme. Joss Whedon is a wicked god and does not believe
in rewarding characters for doing good acts. See Ats Epiphany
for an example. To be redeemed?
You have to really really actively choose it.
That said yes you can link redemption to the heart.
The heart is after all about empathy...about love...about giving
and forgiving. And about atonement.
We see this in the final scene of Grave -where Xander redeems
himself by standing in front of Willow and saving her spirit.
He gives her his heart, his humanity.
It is through his heart - his love of Buffy - that Spike chooses
to get a soul - the first step to be redeemed. (Of course he pays
for this decision and does not get Buffy or rewarded in any way...that's
the point. No rewards. It's also partly why ME didn't have Angelus
choose it in season 2 - if he had? It would have been too easy
for him. Bingo! Buffy. Life isn't that easy - the fight doesn't
end with a choice. Spike has to prove he got a soul, and he has
to deal with the pain it inflicts on him and the insanity.)
It is through her heart - her love of humanity - that
Anyanka decides to take back her wish. No one makes her as Xander
did in BY. She decides to do it. It is the first step to be redeemed.
Anya could never be redeemed, she did not choose to be human,
it's not until she chose it - that she was on the path. Prior
to Selfless? Anya was NOT on the path to redemption.(And at what
a price does she make this choice - she's not killed b/c again,
too easy nor does she automatically get Xander - too easy. She
loses her best and most devoted friend in the world. She ain't
redeemed yet. She doesn't know who she is and hasn't figured out
what to be - that has to happen first.)
Prior to Grave when Spike fought for his soul and got it - Spike
was NOT on the path to redemption. (He's not redeemed yet either
- not even close...he has to figure out who he is first too...who
is Spike outside of Buffy, who is Anya outside of Xander?)
You have to choose the path to be on it. And the choice comes
from not the spirit, the mind, or the hands - it comes from the
heart. Don't get me wrong the others are important for it to be
realized and all take a part, but the heart must be there too.
Also and this is important - choosing the path does NOT mean you'll
make it the whole way. It's a twisty turny rocky one with forks
and pits and misleads. You need your heart to help you navigate
these.
Just being on that path means zip...if you leave it.
This season is more about Who we are at heart. Who we want to
become. And becoming whole than it is about redemption or forgiveness
or vengeance per se. Those are all parts of it of course. But
they are part of what makes us human, who we are. To forgive,
to love, to atone, to redeem, we must first know who we are. Because
if we don't? We are like Aud
clinging to whatever comes along. Or like Dawn defining ourselves
by what others think of us. OR like Buffy defining ourselves by
our profession. OR like Spike defining ourselves by who we love
and being who the loved one wishes us to be.
The journey this year is one of self-discovery.
Each character has three identities right now and is struggling
to figure out how to intergrate them and which is the real one:
Rupert/Ripper/Giles (oh ripper = mind ripped)
achybreakycrayonWillow/DarkWillow(VampWillow)/Willow = Will -equals
spirit or the will to change.
Buttmonkey geek Xander/hyenavampsuaveXander/Xander= (I think Alex
or xander with the harris means heart but not sure)
NormalgirlredridinghoodBuffy/Slayer(TownSheriff)Buffy/BuffyAnne
=The hands (can't see how her name relates here.)
Aud/Anyanka/Anya
William/Spike/Mr. Bill (Sparks) = (I've decided to call the new
Spike Mr. Bill - b/c it cracks me up, if you've seen old SNL you'll
know why.)
Liam/Angelus/Angel
Thekey/ScareyFireBreathingDawn/Dawn
Who are they? They are all three. Not one. Not the other.
Each individual is a combo of all three.
Honor H mentioned this in a post: Maiden/Mother/Crone
I think its Youth/Father/Sage for men. (And don't get me started
on the unfairness of Sage vs. Crone...ugh!)
The trinity.
We are all three. The trick is gaining strength from each.
There is a reason that Whedon started his series with three characters
in high school and in Angel had three in LA.
Then added others as time went on.
Think about it:
Xander - human. heart.
Willow - witch. mind/spirit
Buffy - hero/demon hands
Xander/Willow/Buffy
With Giles as the overseer or guide.
Then in Angel
Cordelia(Doyle)/Weselely/Angel
(Angel is at loose ends when he is split from Cordy and Wes
just as Buffy is split from Xander and Willow.)
It's an interesting dynamic.
So to be redeemed? You need to figure out where one personality
ends and the other begins and make a choice about who you are
and what connects you...
All the characters have started the path of redemption - but whether
or not they suceed or actually choose redemption has to do with
the choices they make based on heart, mind, spirit, and hands
and of course who they are.
JMO...hope it made sense.
[> [> [> Something
I've found interesting about Buffy this year is... -- Rob,
20:16:27 10/25/02 Fri
...that she is, on the one hand, being more open than usual, teaching
her slayage to Dawn, and counselling the high school students,
and talking to Xander and Willow about her feelings re: Angel,
having to kill Anya, etc, and yet in other respects, she is being
just, if not more guarded, than ever. Perhaps what is happening
here is that Buffy wants to be more open and less guarded about
things, but she wants to have complete control over what she is
guarded or not guarded about...but that of course leads to being
just as reserved as ever, in many respects. Am I making any sense
here? I'm really not quite sure myself lol. I think it all comes
down to that comment Dawn made (I forget which ep from this season)
about how Buffy will be very open and let them in WHEN SHE WANTS
TO. And the rest of the time, she remains just as aloof and separate
from the rest as ever. I do think, though, to be fair, that she
has been improving, certainly since last season. She will not
be, I don't think, I fully happy, complete individual though until
she finds herself capable of completely letting herself go. Buffy
seems to think that that might make her fall apart, when in actuality,
it could make her a much healthier, happier individual. Not always
having to bear the weight of the world alone.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Actually
you are making sense -- shadowkat, 08:05:01 10/26/02 Sat
And bring up some interesting points.
"Buffy wants to be more open and less guarded about things,
but she wants to have complete control over what she is guarded
or not guarded about...but that of course leads to being just
as reserved as ever, in many respects. "
I think as adults we run into that a lot of the time. I know I
often do. For instance, some people consider me to be very closed,
hard to get know, while others see me as very open. There are
things I'll tell you right off the bat, others nope, sorry. I
don't consciously pick which ones all the time, it just happens.
With Buffy - the things she keeps to herself are usually those
that she's not sure what she feels about. She says as much about
not revealing Spike's whereabouts to Dawn and Xander. "I
was hoping you might be a mirage." Telling them about it
- posed a lot of problems, particularly if as she hoped he wasn't
really there. After all there were other weird things going on
when she first ran into him. Why cause problems? When there might
not be one?
I think she's doing the same thing with the whole soul bit.
She's not sure what to do about it or feel about it...It's partly
why she didn't reveal their affair.
We can't reveal everything about ourselves to others - it's impossible.
And in a free society? We shouldn't have to.
I don't really blame Buffy for keeping her feelings and concerns
regarding Spike and her job to herself. She needs time to figure
them out.
And Buffy as others on the board have noted, has a difficult job.
She's sort of like a secret agent but solo.
The town sheriff who can't reveal her identity to the general
public. She can't tell the Principal what she is or the cops,
because they'd institutionalize her. For years she couldn't tell
her parents. Hank Summers probably still doesn't know. And she
has a sister who didn't exist prior to a year or so ago. She died
- but no one outside of her close circle knows it. These are secrets
she must keep her entire life. Add to that the very real problem
of caring deeply for three individuals that could at any moment
hurt a great many people.
1. Anyanka - was actually of the three the easiest problem for
Buffy to solve. She felt the least for Anyanka. She cared for
her. But Anya was neither her best friend nor had she been Buffy's
lover.
But what is worth noting about Anyanka is what Rufus posted above
in Suicide by a cop - Anya wanted to be killed.
Just as Spike may have wanted Buffy to kill him in Beneath You.
And Willow wanted her to - in Two-to-Go. That's a horrible position
to constantly be placed in. If Buffy says the wrong thing - she
could place Dawn, Xander etc in danger. If she makes the wrong
decision? She could end up facing another apocalypse. And she's
had to deal with this since she was 15.
It's an odd balancing act...determining what to reveal and what
not too. Keeping your own counsel. She did actually discuss what
she needed to do with Anya with Xander and Willow. She didn't
just leap up and do it. They actually argued and she gave Xander
time to get there first.
So I think you're right - she seems more guarded then before (emotion
wise) yet in some ways she's more open. And I think Malandaza
is right - in this episode she reminded me a lot of Giles - in
The Gift.
[> [> [> [> [>
I like what you say about...(season 7 spoilers, some general
earlier spoilers) -- Rob, 09:22:10 10/26/02 Sat
...Buffy waiting until she's figured things out before being open
about them. That makes a lot of sense. Whenever she has had suspicions
about something, or discovered something that she doesn't think
her friends will understand, she keeps it to herself, until such
a time that she can sort out the problem. Angel coming back from
the hell dimension, for example. She continued to rehabilitate
him in private, and, although we don't know when or if she would
have revealed his presence to them once he had recovered from
his primal, tortured state, it is clear that she decided to tackle
the problem all by herself. If I recall correctly, she also kept
the truth about Dawn's existence to herself, until it came as
quite a relief to her that Joyce figured out on her own. To start
off with, of course, she wouldn't have told her friends of her
suspicions that her sister might be evil, until she had learned
all she had to know first. Correct me if I'm remembering that
wrong. I haven't rewatched the fifth season eps for a while now.
With Spike, also we have here a problem she doesn't think the
other SG will understand...or care about. Xander certainly will
be a problem to convince, and possibly even Dawn. Willow may have
an easier time with it, having already identified with Anya over
recovering from evil. Come to think of it, Xander may find himself
forced to accept Spike's soul and the possibility of redemption,
so soon after arguing on Anya's behalf. Or, conversely, be even
madder at Buffy, who went right after Anya but kept allowing Spike
to live. This year has been an amazing one at parallelling the
character arcs, and the Anya story will probably have an impact
on the Spike story. With Anya, I really believe that Buffy did
not think there was any other option, and I truly think it broke
her heart. Anya, who after living as human for the past three
years, chose to become a demon. What's worse, after seeming pretty
innocuous for a while, not only performed a grisly, horrific vengeance
spell, but seemed to show no remorse for it. I think at this point
that Buffy was tired of having to rehabilitate people. She has
three people (more or less lol): Willow, Spike, and Anya. And,
as you said, Anya was the easiest problem to solve.
"But what is worth noting about Anyanka is what Rufus posted
above in Suicide by a cop - Anya wanted to be killed.
Just as Spike may have wanted Buffy to kill him in Beneath You.
And Willow wanted her to - in Two-to-Go. That's a horrible position
to constantly be placed in."
Yes, I completely agree with you. Anya understood that the Slayer
would be coming after her, accepted it, and even more so, embraced
it, just as she later embraced the chance to sacrifice herself
to resurrect the dead students. She wanted her suffering to end.
She felt like she had no place in the world, didn't want to be
a demon anymore, didn't want to be a human anymore. Although she
was again a demon, her past three years learning again about humanity
has affected her. What sane human could slaughter 12 people and
not be as devastated as Anya? Anya is a clearminded individual,
a problemsolver, a cut-and-dried, balance those retail books kind
of girl. To go from that to once again tearing people to shreds
must have completely wrecked her emotionally. She may not be human
anymore, but she still has the values of a human. She killed all
those people, and now she believes she has to die. She is baiting
Buffy during their fight, and truly wants it to be over with.
What shocked her out of that suicidal state, I believe, was Halfrek's
death. Her attempt at self-sacrifice had resulted in the death
of a close friend of hers. At the same time, though, the evil
deeds have been reversed. She is given a new start, but also a
warning about the price one pays for giving in to the evil.
Anya says that she has always clung to whatever came by her. Therefore,
when Xander left her, I think one of the main reasons she returned
to demonhood was not just that she had been wronged, but that
she was afraid of being a human alone, without Xander, so she
returned to the "gig" she had had right before him.
But that didn't offer her any comfort. Her years with Xander have
affected her, and she cannot deny that, despite how hard she tried.
Now, she can take the good things she has picked up from Xander
and her time as a human, and not need to cling to anybody. To
be a human, on her own terms. I hope in the future her path does
lead back to Xander. But I also hope that she realizes that she
does not need to cling to anyone to be happy. Anya now is finally
growing into her own person.
Rob
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