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Random ramblings on Buffy 7.05 -- Caela, 21:10:21 10/22/02 Tue

Buffy to Willow on the phone: They had their hearts torn out? Oh, did you get into that physics class you wanted?

Seems to be a lot of talk about hearts lately. Last week we met Cassie who died from a heart weakness she didn't even know she had. This week a group of frat boys get their hearts torn out due to a wish Anya (a symbol for jilted love) grants. While we're on the subject of symbolic characters, let's look at Spike-the other symbol of love gone wrong in the buffyverse. I find it interesting that by the end of Selfless both Anya and Spike have become without self, as it were. They've both been completely deconstructed, and there is some doubt as to how they will re-construct themselves, and what the end result of this process will be.

Of course no discussion of hearts would be complete without mentioning Xander, the primeval heart of the Scooby Gang. He grows a lot in this episode, nearly as much as Anya does. But then those two have always been closely tied. I have to say I'm a little concerned about the Xan-man. Total speculation here, but is it possible that the SG has a history of heart weaknesses that they aren't even aware of? Or perhaps their heart will be torn out? Maybe Buffy has already torn out hers...she seems so hard in this episode. Not that it wasn't justified, mind you. The reference to Angel was telling, I think. She has to be getting tired of killing people she cares about. When faced with the situation of having to kill those he loves, Xander simply refuses, both with Anya in Selfless, and Willow in Grave. He is the heart, and the heart doesn't kill (perhaps the real reason Xander is such an ineffectual fighter). The heart loves even if that means annilation.

Which brings us back to Spike (I didn't plan that, I swear). He loved, and it did mean annihilation. He and Xander have way more in common than either of them would be willing to admit. I honestly have no idea where ME is going with Spike this season (which is how I like it). It used to be all about the blood, perhaps now it's all about the heart. Anyhow, it has certainly come up a lot.

Ah, you thought I was actually going somewhere with this? I'm not that smart. I'll just throw this out to the rest of you and see what happens. It's my first real post (anywhere, actually), so be kind.

Caela

[> Welcome, Caela! -- Traveler, 21:25:16 10/22/02 Tue

Well said, and you aren't the first person to notice the appearance of heart references in Buffy. See LeeAnn's post below.

[> [> See Dyna's thread "a history of heart irregularities" -- Rahael, 04:46:00 10/23/02 Wed

It's at the bottom of the board. It's an extensive analysis of the heart symbolism

[> I'll tell you where this is going. -- ZachsMind, 22:15:33 10/22/02 Tue

To get a hint at the future, we have to look at the past. What started it all. The first words of the first episode of the first season.

"In every generation there is a Chosen One. She alone will stand against
the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness. She is the Slayer."

Okay maybe not THE first words, but you know what I mean. This is the crux of what makes a Slayer, but Buffy hasn't followed this.

There's a reason why Kendra didn't have a social life or any friends before Sunnydale. There's a reason why no Watcher before Giles allows their Slayer to even tell other people who and what she is, much less sit down and watch television with them. All Slayers before Buffy, to the best of our knowledge, and SINCE, have fought alone. They had only a Watcher to direct them, but they didn't accumulate a "Scooby Gang." It's actually this gang that has kept her alive. Xander saved her once. Willow saved her once. Giles, the Watcher, has not. It's not the role of a Watcher to save the Slayer, but to watch her die. I think Giles has once said that no Slayer has outlived her Watcher. If she kept her friends with her, Buffy could potentially live indefinitely.

However, this strength is also her curse. If something evil happens to her closest of friends, it's an Achilles' heel. She can't offer Anya or Willow or anyone special treatment. Yes it hurt her to go toe to toe with Anya, because she does care for Anya, but at the same time, Anya caused twelve men to die. It's wrong for her to kill all these other vampires and demons that she doesn't know personally, but then let Anya have a get out of jail free card.

She IS the law when it comes to demonology. Who else is gonna stop these creatures? Even the government is powerless to stop them, as we learned by the end of season four. Having friends potentially contaminates Buffy's fight. It potentially weakens her resolve. Ultimately, she has to be The Chosen One. She alone will have to stand against the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness. She IS the Slayer, after all.

There's rumors that Sarah Michelle Gellar is leaving the show after this season. They can't kill her off. That's.. uhm, predictable. I predict that the last season's gonna show Buffy walking away from her friends. And she alone will continue the fight, because she'll see once and for all that she can't administer the justice that is her chosen responsibility, yet keep souls close to her. Cold? Heartless? Maybe we're witnessing the metamorphosis of a Buffy that's more like Faith was in the beginning, only instead of being cold-hearted, I think Buffy will be able to take with her the understanding of a warm heart, and the sober realization of the responsibility she has been chosen to uphold.

Buffy will eventually find a balance, but right now, it's her very friends who are keeping her off balance. This is a fight that ultimately she has to tackle alone.

[> [> Re: I'll tell you where this is going. (irrelevant spoiler for 2000AD) -- Indri, 23:10:33 10/22/02 Tue

Ultimately, she has to be The Chosen One. She alone will have to stand against the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness. She IS the Slayer, after all [...] And she alone will continue the fight, because she'll see once and for all that she can't administer the justice that is her chosen responsibility, yet keep souls close to her.

We've seen what all-alone Buffy looks like. We saw her in The Wish. In fact, I noticed that her clothing and make-up tonight was similar to what she wore in that episode. I think it was a deliberate evocation and not just because of Anya. Our loveable Buffy is in danger of becoming more and more like that detached and friendless incarnation. And Buffy in The Wish didn't last very long.

Buffy is not infallible. She may be "the law" but often an alternative viewpoint helps. Tonight Xander protested and Willow acted to pre-empt Buffy's decision to kill Anya. Without her friends, Buffy is poorer both as a person and as a slayer. I really hope we don't see her riding off into the sunset on her lonesome.

And besides, who'd want to emulate Judge Dredd? I gave up on him about the time he nuked Russia.

[> [> [> Well the season's not over yet... -- ZachsMind, 23:21:36 10/22/02 Tue

I mean it is possible that between now and the season finale, after a lot of angst between the characters where Buffy questions her relationships with any of them and wonders if anyone can be inherently good at all, there may come a point towards the end where she sees that she can sorta bring the best of her friends with her, without being physically with them and subjecting them to the battle she has to wage. She won't be like Faith. She won't become completely heartless & cold. She'll take what she's learned with her, and do her job better than the Buffy we saw in The Wish, who never had Willow & Xander for friends.

At the end of season six, Buffy will think she's doing a favor to her friends. The HellMouth could theoretically be closed by the season finale, allegedly forever. She'll move on and feel confident in knowing that Sunnydale will be safe without her.

THEN in season EIGHT we learn that Sunnydale's far from safe because of some new evil, and those left behind will have to stride forth and fight the good fight without their slayer.

Okay. So. I'm thinking too far ahead. *smirk*

[> [> [> [> Yes, an "all in one" Buffy is better than an "all alone" one -- Indri, 23:26:00 10/22/02 Tue

[> [> A little technical point - that has no bearing on your argument -- Dochawk, 23:12:57 10/22/02 Tue

Faith outlived her watcher. Kakistos killed her.

[> (OT) Check out Kingdom Hearts -- neaux, 04:42:45 10/23/02 Wed

If you want a whole freakin story about Hearts and Heartless, check out the video game kindgom hearts.
It even has David Boreanaz in it.

I'm sorry but all this talk about heartless, you cant help but think of Kindgom hearts..

everyother line in the game has Halley Joel Osmont talking about hearts.

good game btw.

Questions settled in 7.5 (uh, spoilers) -- Veronica, 21:34:12 10/22/02 Tue

Questions settled in 7.5:

Did or does Anyanka have a soul?
Sure sounded like it when D'Hoffryn referred to life and soul of a vengeance demon. There you have it - Vengeance demons have souls.

Anyone want to add to the list?

[> Or not... -- Wisewoman, 21:43:42 10/22/02 Tue

Question not answered: where did Anya's fear of bunnies come from? She seemed quite fond of them as Aud...

:o)

[> [> Re: Or not... -- Arethusa, 21:47:11 10/22/02 Tue

Remember the boy in "Nightmares," who felt guilty for all of his spiders that died? Maybe Anya felt guilty about harvesting bunnies for fur. ("Take your furs and your annoying questions across the river.") She was afraid of Bunny Revenge.

[> [> [> My take on it... -- ZachsMind, 22:45:56 10/22/02 Tue

Remember the scene in Tabula Rasa when Anya was trying to do magick without a memory and all those bunnies kept popping up? I think the bunnies were there not because Anya/Aud was breeding them, but because she had been practicing her magick and the bunnies were the result. What she was saying to Olaf seemed to me an obvious attempt to lie to him and hide the whole thing from him. He'd probably been whoring behind her back for some time.

We may yet see a scene in her past where Anya actually faced so many bunnies at one time that they did become potentially dangerous. Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, when a young Indy found himself in a crate filled with snakes, causing him to have a phobia of snakes the rest of his life? Something similar to that probably happened with Anya and bunnies, where she was trapped in a room with thousands of the buggers for some time, and they began to turn on her.

I hope they can film that somehow. It would be horrific and hilarious simultaneously.

[> [> [> [> Thanks for the visual -- I'm having "Night of the Lepus" flashbacks :) -- Earl Allison, 01:56:15 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> For those who haven't seen it... -- Darby, 09:30:40 10/23/02 Wed

..Wisewoman's halo-nominated take on the bunny phobia is at

http://www.marilikin.com/anyabunny.html

A knowledge of Monty Python and the Holy Grail is close to necessary...

- Darby, assuming she won't mind the plug.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: For those who haven't seen it... -- newlurker, 10:38:10 10/23/02 Wed

... or perhaps Anya saw the episode of Xena in which a sharp-toothed bunny savagely attacks fair Gabrielle

[> [> [> [> [> Why, thank you sir! -- dub ;o), 14:23:21 10/23/02 Wed

Didn't think anyone still remembered that...

[> Which brings up another question -- change, 04:03:03 10/23/02 Wed

How much more evil is Anya that Spike and Angel? Both Spike and Angel killed when they did not have souls. Angel immediately felt guilt when his soul was restored. Spike has been probably been driven insane by guilt. Anya, on the other hand, always had a soul and didn't feel any guilt about killing and maiming hundreds or thousands of people over a thousand years. She did not feel guilty about it even when she was transformed back into a human, only when she was transformed back into a vengeance demon again did she start to have problems.

So, if Angelus was evil for killing people when he didn't have a soul, what does that make Anyanka who killed with a soul?

[> [> Re: Misguided? -- Miss Edith, 04:26:25 10/23/02 Wed

About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Wisewoman, 21:41:58 10/22/02 Tue

Okay. Think back, waaaaaaay back. Cordelia made a wish that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale. We saw how that worked out. But then Giles crushed Anyanka's amulet and *poof*...wish all gone.

Just a few weeks ago, Ronnie the Worm Guy turned out to be a bad idea, so Anya relented, reversed the spell, turned him human, and *poof*...wish all gone.

Then tonight: Serious bad repercussions 'cause Anyanka conjured up a spidery-demon that killed a dozen frat boys. Xander and Buffy yelling at each other. Buffy and Anyanka trying to kill each other. Anya suffering guilt and remorse. And *poof*...Halfrek all gone!

What's up with that? How come suddenly there's a rule that a wish reversal requires a vengeance demon's death? And even if we can finesse that, did anyone else feel that Halfrek was important enought to Anyanka that her death would cause the suffering that D'Hoffryn seemed to be gloating about?

I loved the ep, really, especially the Bergman vignettes, but this wishy-washy wish stuff really rankles.

;o) dub

[> Re: About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- MayaPapaya9, 21:55:24 10/22/02 Tue

I think it had to do with the fact that the Abercrombie & Fitch slaughter was more of a mass destruction thing than an isolated individual vengeance thing. Does that make sense? It seemed to me that what made this so serious was the sheer SIZE of what Anya had done.

[> Re: About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:55:32 10/22/02 Tue

The wish Anya granted was to summon a spider to tear out the frat boys' hearts. Reversing the wish would remove the spider, but not the spider's effects. For example, if Ronnie had killed Nancy before Anya did the de-wishing, Nancy would still be dead, even though Ronnie would be back to human. Anya has the power to reverse the spider summoned by the wish, but restoring life to the frat boys is beyond her power, though the reversal would be doable if Anya had ripped their hearts out directly..

[> [> Re: About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Veronica, 22:02:03 10/22/02 Tue

Don't forget we never saw the puppy that worm-boy ate get brought back. When Halfrek un-did Dawn's wish, they didn't get back the hours and hours they were trapped in the house. Undoing a wish is different than bringing back the victims.

Which reminds me - why didn't anyone think to try destroying her amulet! Of course they don't know exactly what happened in the alternate universe when Giles did it, but it seems a natural thing to try, since they know the amulet has a strong connection to her power.

-V

[> [> [> Re: About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Rob, 22:11:49 10/22/02 Tue

The reason they didn't do the amulet thing (even if they had known) I thought was pretty clear. Anya chose to be a demon again after being human the last time. She did these awful things, and Buffy does not think the fact that she could be made "good" again excuses this--just as Xander didn't think that restoring Angel's soul would excuse the evil he had done as Angelus. Anya is even worse, because she chose out of her own free will to go back to evil ways...further, to become the thing that it is Buffy's job to kill. If Buffy broke the amulet, sure Anya would be human again, but that would not reverse the deaths that she caused. Buffy's job isn't to neuter demons but to slay them. And Anya herself didn't want an easy way out, to just be human again without a price. She accepted D'Hoffryn's price, that she thought referred to her life, remember.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Anya hasn't chosen evil, exactly... -- ZachsMind, 22:35:32 10/22/02 Tue

At the end of the episode, she said to Xander that she just clung to whatever came along. D'Hoffryn didn't approach Anya with the idea of evil being good. He offered her a chance to do something more with her life than she ever could in that village. He offered her an escape from normality. A chance to be something greater than she was.

To Anya, being a demon isn't evil. It's an opportunity to right the wrongs of others. To pay justice to those who are oppressing her surrogate sisterhood of the planet. In fact she felt as much The Chosen One as Buffy does. Anya never saw what she was doing as evil until just recently. It's why she felt guilt and remorse over what she'd done in this latest episode. Why she can't go back into the whole 'inflicting' thing anymore. She's learned that it is evil, that the end does not justify the means, and was willing to sacrifice herself in order to take it all back.

So Willow's learned that lesson, and so has Anya. My question now is: when is Buffy gonna learn that lesson?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya hasn't chosen evil, exactly...(spoilers 7.5) -- Rob, 22:41:01 10/22/02 Tue

I meant "going back to being evil" as a synonym for becoming a demon again. In actuality, her re-demonizing brought out her human qualities more than ever before. But to Buffy, demon=evil. And also to Anya, because despite how she tried to justify her actions to herself, that the boys got what they deserved, she didn't believe that herself. She saw her actions as evil, and thus was willing to sacrifice herself to right them.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes but conversely... -- ZachsMind, 22:51:09 10/22/02 Tue

If being a vengeance demon before didn't feel wrong to her before, especially after she herself had been scorned by Xander, why would she think it would suddenly feel wrong now? She had to actually dive back into that water to find out just how cold and thankless it really was. Sometimes you can't just be told something is wrong. Sometimes you have to find out yourself the hard way.

I still say Anya hasn't chosen to be evil. She chose to be vengeful, and only now with this latest episode has it been driven home that it's wrong. I mean you and I as viewers knew it was wrong from the beginning, but Anya didn't know that until now.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay, I see what you mean. -- Rob, 22:55:57 10/22/02 Tue

I agree. Guess I misunderstood you, or I wasn't clear enough in my wording. I don't think Anya jumped back into it thinking "I'm gonna be all evil now." I think that she realized the wrongness of it by how it made her feel once she actually started wreaking the vengeance again, like you said.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, it did feel evil -- luna, 18:35:13 10/23/02 Wed

I thought she was having regrets about her demon ways earlier, with the worm guy. Remember all the pep talks she was getting from Hallie about getting into real vengeance and not making people French when their girlfriends wished they were frogs? I think she had never really gotten back to it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> When exactly did Buffy suddenly say demon = evil?? -- Dochawk, 23:20:29 10/23/02 Wed

if Buffy believed that, Spike would have been dead, Clem would have been dead, and even Oz would have been dead, because they all had demon inside. The whole point of New Moon Rising was that Buffy didn't claim that demons are evil ( a lesson she taught Riley). But a demon who commits an evil act (at least one that affects humans) becomes evil in her mind and for those demons she is the law.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: When exactly did Buffy suddenly say demon = evil?? -- Tamara, 00:21:54 10/24/02 Thu

Buffy does see demons as evil. When she first met Clem she was going to kill him for information. Remember Spike took her to a card game in Life Serial and she gets all excited and asks who she should kill for information. Buffy was in a bad mood and wanted a good fight but it still says something about her. She sees demons as easy enough to kill morally but usually only kills them when they are a direct threat. She doesnt kill a harmless Clem later on when he shows himself to be good. But her first instinct is that demons are bad and it is okay to kill them. She will just cut you a break usually if you are not involved in shady dealings when she encounters you. In Enemies she lets a demon go because she doesnt think hes a threat. But I didnt feel she would have exactly cried about it if Faith had staked him on reflex when they first saw him. She would probably have just shrugged it off and cracked a joke about Faith being overzealous or something.
And Buffy does see Spike as an evil vampire just not a dangerous one with his chip and later the soul. Oz wasnt a real demon as she tells the warewolf hunter a warewolf is due consideration as it is human 28 days out of the month. But look at how she treated Anya when she became a full demon. But Willow could still be saved as she was human still. Even Xander saw Anya as completely different when she was demon. When she was human and with him he saw her demon past as completely seperate because she is human now. Because Buffy was going out with Spike who not only had a shady past but was still a vampire Xander felt he had the right to lecture her on dating someone who killed half on Europe. But now he has accepted Anyas demon half he may realise life isnt as simple as he thought it was and be introduced to the greyness of the Buffyverse.
Buffy doesnt run around killing demons for fun and she usually has a good reason. But them being demons does make a difference and she would not be too devestated if she staked an innocent bystander by mistake if he was a demon. Willow killing Rack would not even be mentioned as murder (ive killed people) if he was a demon.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya hasn't chosen evil, exactly... -- Miss Edith, 03:27:14 10/23/02 Wed

I don't agree that Anya saw herself as a chosen one campigning against oppression. Doesn't the episode Selfless show that Anya was not interested in becoming a VD to help others? Rather I get the impression that she decided that all humans desrved vengeance and she was willing to dish it out. In The Wish she tricks Cordy into making a wish which inadvertently kills Cordy. She then gloats about how exciting the consequences were. I wouldn't say she was ever interested in correcting the wrongs of others. Hallie in OAFA granted a spell which would leave Dawn trapped in her house forever. She just comes off as hypocritical to me when she starts talking of how her purpose is to help the children and how she is a justice demon.
Don't get me wrong I love the character Anya and I agree she has learned the lesson that vengeance is not justified. In fact she says as much to Giles in Grave. But I don't agree with your point that "To Anya being a demon wasn't evil. Its an opportunity to right the wrongs of others". It always came across to me as VD treating the world as their playground and enjoying the carnage they created. Anya no longer having her heart in causing pain is precicely why she had trouble returning to her old way of life. Hallie tells her in Lessons that Anya has gone soft. I always felt vengeance was treated as an amusing toy, rather than VD truly believing they were doing a service to humanity.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agree absolutely with Miss E. -- KdS, 04:35:51 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Leninism -- Cleanthes, 07:53:43 10/23/02 Wed

To Anya, being a demon isn't evil. It's an opportunity to right the wrongs of others. To pay justice to those who are oppressing her surrogate sisterhood of the planet.

That scene of 1905 Russia certainly supports this view. Even if Anyayanka had thought about the evil of her deeds at that aristocrat's party, which evidently matched or exceeded the deaths at the modern frat house, she would eagerly have justified herself as in the vanguard of the revolution. Hallie aided and abetted this.

I suppose her dance of capitalist superiority that she later does is a sign of guilt at her earlier ends-justify-means thinking?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Finding a system -- matching mole, 12:23:33 10/23/02 Wed

One of the most interesting things about the entire episode to me was the revelation that Anya has always been very literal minded. It wasn't a side effect of having been a demon for a thousand years.

Aud/Anyanka/Anya appears to be (have been?) a very concrete thinker, someone who apparently seeks for very simple solutions to life's difficulties. Aud bases her happiness on Olaf and her rabbits and doing good deeds. When this doesn't work she becomes a vengeance demon and attempts to write the wrongs of others that she perceives to be like her. Her identification with communism is not surprising. It is a system that is based on a view of the majority of humanity throughout history being wronged by the minority. With the revolution the majority gets what they have coming to them.

Post vengeance Anya seeks out new solutions, not because the old ones failed her but because they are no longer available to her. Until fairly late in season 6 we don't hear Anya expressing any regrets about her past life. Instead she tries to forge a new way to find happiness with Xander and financial security as the lynchpins of the whole thing. Once again she is substituting one system to base her life on for another. I don't see any guilt.

I will confess that my views on this may be coloured by an abhorrence on my part of viewing either capitalism or socialism as moral systems.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> 1905 vs 1917 -- Rahael, 13:18:24 10/23/02 Wed

The only qualifier I would add to this, of course, (not having seen the ep, or seen how ME portrayed it) is that 1905 is quite different from 1917. The Bolsheviks were nowhere. They were caught completely by surprise by this event. Kerensky and his Provisional Government were quite moderate by the standards of what followed, and remember that they were the government against whom the Bolsheviks rebelled against. The Bolsheviks didn't bring down Tsarism.

Plus, the 1905 revolution was much more of a spontaneous (and popular, compared to 1917) than the second revolution. It was provoked when troops opened fire on a peaceful demonstration (Bloody Sunday) led by a monk. Tsar Nicholas wrote in his diary that nothing much had happened that day.

As for socialism - I understand that it has quite different connotations in America, but socialism is really quite moderate a movement in Europe, and I wouldn't really conflate it with communism. I mean, there is a very strong strand of Christian socialism that draws its inspiration from the sermon on the mount.

Lenin and his Bolsheviks didn't have anything much but contempt toward the Socialist Revolutionaries, - who argued against Marxism because Marxism discounted the role of the peasants, and they, after all, drew their support from the peasants, while the Bolsheviks were nearly entirely from the cities (not that they had that much of the power base).

My favourite story from the 1905 revolution is that as the position of the Tsar worsened, all the troops guarding the family abandoned them. All but one regiment, the women's bicycle regiment, who stood steadfast til the end.

Rahael, whose socialism, Christianity and general value system is strongly intertwined.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> socialism -- matching mole, 13:50:59 10/23/02 Wed

I was using socialism in its most general connotation - as economic system in which public ownership is predominant as opposed to capitalism in which private ownership is predominant.

My interpretation of Anya's feelings is based solely on her dialogue in which she seems to identify pretty strongly with the revolution.

The term socialism does have strong negative connotations among much of the American populace (also but to a lesser extent in Canada). My major complaint is turning what strikes me as being, ideally, a purely practical set of decisions into a moral ones. Capitalism is synonomized with freedom by many people here which seems like a complete non-sequitor, or more charitably, an extremely simplistic idea of what freedom means. As practical ways of running a society both socialism and capitalism seem to have their strengths and their weaknesses. I will admit that I find socialism more morally appealing than capitalism but I will also admit that it seems to have some practical drawbacks in many situations. I guess I prefer to take a 'scientific' approach to organizing society. Try things out, see how they work, experiment with different combinations, rather than adhere to a single system.

Mind you I'm not saying that you are doing this Rah. Just explaining myself further.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ahh, I agree completely! -- Rahael, 16:05:21 10/23/02 Wed

I am pragmatic as to how one achieves certain desirable outcomes - though the means to the end are quite important, because if you don't achieve the end, all you are left with are the means. Which is what I think happens to Bolshevik Russia. And indeed, Vengeance demons.

I'm really interested at getting a look at the revolutionary bit, because the 1905 revolution is much much more complex than the 1917. There's a lot more idealism about it. There's the "revolution from beneath" thing going on, rather than oh, a handful of extremists strolling into power and taking over. You can play a lot of "what ifs" with the 1905. But Kerensky proved too weak to withstand the pressure of events.

Though I have to say, Lenin, quite pragmatic himself. At one point, he said "no more spoonfeeding" to the factories, and it was sink or swim. And of course, his classic reinterpration of Marx, to say that the revolution was going to happen in the weak link, not in the advanced capitalist countries.

Anyway, you explained yourself very well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: socialism -- Cleanthes, 19:56:34 10/23/02 Wed

My major complaint is turning what strikes me as being, ideally, a purely practical set of decisions into a moral ones.

I completely agree, in fact, that's what I was getting at as Anya's fault -- she decided the answer from a practical standpoint and then decided it was morally inevitable. She's good with math and she had obviously read the Communist Manifesto. Hmm, Marx was a dirtbag toward his wife, I wonder if Anya had ever talked to Jenny (Marx, not Calander)?

Here in the USA we have a two-party democracy with a party representing creditor interests (the Republicans) and a party representing debtor interests (the Democrats). It works very badly because democracy is the worst form of government except for every other method that has been tried.

Too often, one party tries to climb up on a moral high horse with regard to the other party's actions. Were either party to succeed for long, democracy would be destroyed. Vengeance is mine, says the Jim Crow Democrats or the Know-Nothing Republicans [intentially picking long-ago topics to avoid controversy], and, I suggest, Anya when she's leaping to a conclusion by a moral certainty.

I mentioned Lenin because, iirc, he played only a small role in the events of 1905, but the conclusion he drew from that abortive revolution was that there needed to be an elite vanguard of practiced, ruthless revolutionaries. He would have approved of Anya, as she was then, I think.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Addendum: The three Russian Revolutions -- Rahael, 16:58:09 10/23/02 Wed

Very complicated, since there actually 2 revolutions in 1917. You wait for one to come along for decades, and then three come along!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Plus -- Sophist, 21:09:06 10/23/02 Wed

the aborted coup in December 1825 from which we get the term Decembrist. I noticed some posts using that term to refer to 1905, which is incorrect.

[> [> [> [> that's true, but... -- tim, 06:16:32 10/23/02 Wed

...it doesn't negate the possibility of Anya breaking her own amulet, which is what I was expecting. Becoming human this time had to be her choice, true, but the "The Wish" makes it perfectly clear that all wishes are reversed and the Vengeance Demon goes back to human as soon as the amulet is broken. Anya clearly knows this (she's the one who tells everyone else in OaFA), and there's no reason why she can't break the damn thing herself. This is something that's been sticking in my craw for awhile, because as good as ME usually is at following their own rules, the rules governing Vengeance Demons seem to change every time Anya has a prominent role in an episode. Here's my take on it:

All wishes are undone by breaking a VD's power center (The Wish)...

Unless an ex-VD has been human a few years and needs to have her wedding broken up, in which case an old victim still exists in an alternate dimension (Hell's Bells).

Still, the most recent wish can be undone by breaking the power center (OaFA)...

Unless a VD is at a crossroads about whether to be immortal and evil or mortal and good, in which case the only way to undo her spell is to immolate her best friend (Selfless).

Got all that?

This makes a particular lack of sense to me because she changed the entire world in "The Wish," and just by breaking the power center, Giles changed it all back again, despite the fact that lots of people had died as a result. The slaughter of "an Abercrombie and Fitch catalog" is, to my mind, minor by comparison.

I don't want to sound overly ranty about this. I thought the episode was brilliant and the ending was inspired, I really did. But, honestly, if ME isn't going to play in their own playground, they could at least wave to those of us on the swings.

--th

[> [> [> [> [> No... -- Rob, 06:57:15 10/23/02 Wed

The power center being broken can't undo every spell. They can't undo death. In Beneath You, the spell on Ronnie could be revoked, because he hadn't been killed but turned into something else. If the spell could be completely revoked, then poor Rocky would have come back to life.

The deaths in "The Wish" were undone, because in that episode, the entire timeline was rewritten over again. And about that episode, she was able to write over the timeline by only changing one particular element--Buffy being in Sunnydale. The rest just happened as a result of that one thing. And we have learned that there a lot of things that even some of the most powerful beings cannot do...and one of those things is resurrecting the dead. It has remained a constant on the show that to do that, it would require more power than most demons have. Osiris couldn't do it, because he couldn't mess with the natural world...and he's a god, more so the god of the dead. If he couldn't do it, I can certainly understand why Anya couldn't.

And we've also seen that when resurrecting the dead is done, it requires a sacrifice. Willow killed the fawn to bring back Buffy. D'Hoffryn kills Halfrek to bring back the 12 dead people. Now, I suspect that he probably could have done it anyway, and just added that as a cruel slap in Anya's face. But that doesn't change the fact that ME has not violated its own mythology. That's still very much intact.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No... -- tim, 07:25:02 10/23/02 Wed

The power center being broken can't undo every spell. They can't undo death. In Beneath You, the spell on
Ronnie could be revoked, because he hadn't been killed but turned into something else. If the spell could be
completely revoked, then poor Rocky would have come back to life.

If I were arguing that she should have just undid her own spell like she did then, this would be true, but the power center is, well, the center of her power. I find it hard to believe that breaking the power center can alter events in the past and change the flow of time, but can't bring back a dozen lousy college students.

The deaths in "The Wish" were undone, because in that episode, the entire timeline was rewritten over again. And
about that episode, she was able to write over the timeline by only changing one particular element--Buffy being in
Sunnydale. The rest just happened as a result of that one thing.

Fair point, but again, we can alter time, but not bring back the dead? IRL, science is a lot closer to the latter than the former--lots of people have been revived on the operating table. I suppose it comes down to the fact that we disagree on how impenetrable a barrier death really is.

And we have learned that there a lot of things that
even some of the most powerful beings cannot do...and one of those things is resurrecting the dead... Osiris
couldn't do it, because he couldn't mess with the natural world...and he's a god, more so the god of the dead. If he
couldn't do it, I can certainly understand why Anya couldn't.

Couldn't or wouldn't? My reading of the scene in Villains is that Osiris was saying that Willow had no right to ask that of him, not that he couldn't do it. (If there's dialogue I'm forgetting that would point to the contrary, please let me know.) Sort of like a governor chastising a Death Row inmate for asking for leniency: it's within the governor's power to commute the sentence, but he doesn't think it's warranted given the circumstances.

And we've also seen that when resurrecting the dead is done, it requires a sacrifice. Willow killed the fawn to
bring back Buffy. D'Hoffryn kills Halfrek to bring back the 12 dead people.

Okay, this strikes me as reaching. D'Hoffryn didn't say "bringing those boys back requires a sacrifice." He said "the Fates demand balance for undoing a wish." The language he uses implies this would hold true for any wish--there's nothing in the scene to indicate that death makes this a special case. Clearly that violates what we've seen many times before, even three episodes ago.

But I'm sure you see holes in my arguments you could drive a Panser through. Lay it on me. God, how I love this board!

--th

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No... -- Rob, 07:46:08 10/23/02 Wed

"He said "the Fates demand balance for undoing a wish." The language he uses implies this would hold true for any wish."

And it does. There is always a balance that must be struck. Anya revoked the "snake demon" spell and she lost her teleportation priveleges. Because the greatness of the sacrifice is proportional to the size of the wish-revoking. That was not a major spell-revoking, and only required changing Ronnie back from a demon to a human. This one again, though, involves not only undoing death but 12 deaths. So the sacrifice required for this is greater.

"I find it hard to believe that breaking the power center can alter events in the past and change the flow of time, but can't bring back a dozen lousy college students."

And yet it is true. Remember, this is the Buffyverse. "It isn't physics, it's metaphysics," as Joss says. Bringing someone back to life, especially someone who's hearts been ripped out...a day ago...yes, is easier in the Buffyverse than changing time. Remember, Vengeance Demons can teleport anywhere...to different dimensions, to different places, to different times. All she had to do was teleport back to that time and make it so that Buffy never came to Sunnydale. But Vengeance Demons do not have the power to bring someone back to life. D'Hoffryn obviously has a way to restrict their powers, like he did to Anya's teleportation powers. So he probably has a built-in mystical hold on them being able to bring back the dead. They're demons. He doesn't want them to bring the dead back, whereas the time shift caused general chaos and sadness. He likes that.

"Couldn't or wouldn't? My reading of the scene in Villains is that Osiris was saying that Willow had no right to ask that of him, not that he couldn't do it."

That is a matter of interpretation. The exact script is:

IMPOSING DEMON
Witch! How dare you invoke Osiris in
this task?

Willow, desperate, appeals to the creature.

WILLOW
Please. Please... Bring her back-

IMPOSING DEMON
You may not violate the laws of
natural passing-

WILLOW
How? How is this natural?

IMPOSING DEMON
It is a human death, by human means.

WILLOW
But I-

IMPOSING DEMON
You raised one killed by mystical
forces. This is not the same - she
is taken by natural order. It is
done.

WILLOW
No. There's got to be a way-

IMPOSING DEMON
It is done.

There's room for interpretation there. But either way, even if Osiris could do it, he didn't want to mess with the natural world. Bringing some back from the dead is a huge deal in the Buffyverse. It can't be done easily, and it always has consequences. Come to think of it, I'm sure a great deal of D'Hoffryn's reasoning in bringing these kids back in the first place is that he's sure they'll all be dead again soon, when the "beneath you, it devours" thing finally does.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> an alternative -- tim, 09:33:07 10/23/02 Wed

There is always a balance that must be struck. Anya revoked the "snake demon" spell and she lost her teleportation priveleges. Because the greatness of the sacrifice is proportional to the size of the wish-revoking. That was not a major spell-revoking, and only required changing Ronnie back from a demon to a human. This one again, though, involves not only undoing death but 12 deaths. So the sacrifice required for this is greater.

Okay, without looking at a script, there's a little matter of inferring punctuation, but what I heard is, "The Fates demand a balance--the life and soul of a Vengeance Demon." That sentence appears to be crucial to the whole debate. This comes on the heels of his saying that wishes can't be easily broken, so we're talking about how to break a wish, any wish. The sentence, as I read it, tells us that wishes are not easily broken because the Fates demand balance, and that balance must come in the form of the life and soul of a Vengeance Demon. As to losing the power to teleport: that wasn't lost as a price of recanting the wish; it was revoked afterward as punishment. There's an important difference there.

Remember, this is the Buffyverse. "It isn't physics, it's metaphysics," as Joss says. Bringing someone back to life, especially someone who's hearts been ripped out...a day ago...yes, is easier in the Buffyverse than changing time.

You're probably right, but bear in mind that just as all the deaths in "The Wish" flowed naturally from moving Buffy out of Sunnydale, all of the deaths in "Selfless" flowed naturally from conjuring the spider demon. If we can alter time, then can't we go back and make the conjuring not happen?

Here's my lame attempt at a rewrite that would have made me happier, starting with Anya's line about undoing her spell.

ANYA: I want to take it back. I want to undo what I did.

D'HOFFRYN: Are you sure? (ANYA nods.) Very well. You know I have the power to do that, but if you want me to use it, you'll have to pay my price--the life and soul of a Vengeance Demon.

(BUFFY and XANDER are shocked. Crying, ANYA nods agreement.)

XANDER: No! There has to be another way! Break your amulet!

(At the suggestion, D'HOFFRYN waves his hand and the amulet disappears.)

D'HOFFRYN: My game, Anyanka. My rules.

XANDER: No! I won't let you do this to her! (XANDER lunges at D'HOFFRYN. BUFFY grabs him and pulls him back, holding him while he struggles.)

D'HOFFRYN: Hold him back, Slayer. [And whatever the hell else he said here.]

ANYA: Don't try to save me, Xander. I'm not sure there's even a me to save.

[Continue as written.]

I realize I'm not so good with the fiction-writing, but I think this makes my point: it's possible both to have the fantastic ending we had last night and play according to the earlier rules. But that, of course, hinges on the idea that one sees the episode as breaking the rules in the first place, a point on which we still disagree, I'm sure.

--th

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I guess we're not gonna agree lol, but just had to make one more point... -- Rob, 10:14:27 10/23/02 Wed

"...bear in mind that just as all the deaths in "The Wish" flowed naturally from moving Buffy out of Sunnydale, all of the deaths in "Selfless" flowed naturally from conjuring the spider demon. If we can alter time, then can't we go back and make the conjuring not happen?"

Anya can't do any spells unless a scorned person wishes it. Remember, in "Entropy," she couldn't do a spell on Xander without someone wishing it. Therefore, she couldn't undo the time here without a wish from a human. And, further, her wish-giving abilities are only for vengeancy wishes. So Buffy or Xander couldn't have wished that she reverse time so that the spider demon never came, because that would not be a vengeance wish but a "make everything better" wish. They would probably need a "Wish Fairy" for that.

About why taking away the demon wouldn't reverse the deaths, is that these were two different types of wishes. Cordy's wish, by definition, was time-altering. Anya changed something in time, and everything else naturally developed as a result. Therefore, the reversal of the wish restored the original timeline, making it so that the deaths never happened. And remember, also, that that reversal occurred as a result of Anya's power being taken away from her. It was not in her natural ability to reverse that, just as she couldn't reverse the death of the students. Another example, of course, is she could reverse Ronnie, because she had made him a demon...but she could not bring the dog back.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm going to have to go with tim on this -- matching mole, 10:12:28 10/23/02 Wed

While I buy Rob's argument that within the confines of the Buffyverse bringing back the dead is a much bigger deal than reversing time I don't see a fundamental difference between reversing Cordelia's wish in The Wish and reversing any other wish.

Cordelia's wish was that Buffy never come to Sunnydale. Reverse that wish and a whole series of events never happen. People don't die.

Reverse Nancy's wish and Ronnie never gets turned into a worm. The dog never gets eaten. Reverse Dawn's wish and they never get trapped in the house. Reverse the wish of the young woman in the closet and a dozen frat boys don't get their hearts ripped out.

The only difference between the first wish and the others is that wished event happens in the past. And given that that wish implies that reaching into the past to redo events is no big deal for vengeance demons it seems that there is really no important distinction.

Now I really liked the episode and I think that Emma Caufield did an amazing job. Anya is the most interesting character on either BtVS or AtS at the moment, IMHO. But I don't buy that events at the episode were consistent with the metaphysics of The Wish (although they were with later episodes).

The Wish actually places ME in a bit of dilemma. Reversing time seems like a good way to bring back the dead.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Who knew about the amulet? -- Cleanthes, 21:00:58 10/23/02 Wed

With regard to reversing the wish in `The Wish`, my memory says that only alterno-Giles knew the trick. He, of course, ceased to exist.

Did anyone else ever discover this? Iirc, Anya herself didn't really know what the consequences of the destruction of her amulet. D'Hoffren no doubt gave her one made of adamant the second time around.

Only the alternate universe of `The Wish` is ever reversed. The other wishes are just cancelled. This may have more to do with the unnaturalness of the alternate universe of the the wishverse (akin to the weirdness of the Johnathan-centered universe of `Superstar`) than anything intrinsic to wishes per se.

There's also the cockamamie rule of inference: "whenever a cockamamie rule is used to further the plot, the sole and only sensible response is to roll eyes vigorously, wave hands and shout 'whatever'"

The techno-babble of Star Trek and the mystico-babble of Buffy or Xena or Charmed or West Wing is inherently meaningless. Attempts to find meaning therein involve flirting with madness, or at the least, geekazoid status.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Who knew about the amulet? -- tim, 05:55:34 10/24/02 Thu

At first, in OaFA, Anya declares, "Only a vengeance demon can break her own vengeance spell. Nothing else will work." But then later, after Halfrek has taken a sword through the belly and they think she's dead, there's the following exchange:

ANYA: Her pendant! Get her pendant!

Anya and Buffy rush toward Halfrek. But before they reach her she sits up and puts out her hand
toward Anya, who goes flying backward onto the sofa again. Buffy stares.

HALFREK: (normal voice) There will be no touching of the pendant.

To me, this indicates that she knew the power the pendant held. I agree that she doesn't understnd what's happened in "The Wish." Even by "Doppelgangland," though, she's managed to remember why she's been rendered mortal; else there would have been no reason for her to try to create the timefold to get it back. (This raises another question: shouldn't she be angry at Giles at the end of season 3? Here's the guy that rendered her impotent, yet she seems perfectly willing to work with him. But that's probably a conversation for another time.)

--th

(As always, thanks to Psyche for the quotes.)

[> [> [> [> [> agree w/tim -- anom, 22:36:44 10/23/02 Wed

"Anya clearly knows this (she's the one who tells everyone else in OaFA), and there's no reason why she can't break the damn thing herself."

I've been wondering for a while why Anya or someone else couldn't turn her human again by breaking her amulet. I'm pretty sure Anya, if no one else, knows that would do it.

"Still, the most recent wish can be undone by breaking the power center (OaFA)..."

I didn't see that in this episode. I thought the rule in OaFA was, "Only a vengeance demon can break her own spell"--which also contradicts what we see in "Selfless." Only a vengeance demon--not D'Hoffryn. And a vengeance demon can--so why can't Anya?

And on another point...Rob, I don't think it's been stated or shown that vengeance demons can teleport to different times. That would have really been useful in the fight against Willow in Grave.

I think there was something else, but I'm too sleepy to think of it now...>yawn<...g'night....

[> Re: About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Rob, 22:03:10 10/22/02 Tue

Gotta disagree with you here. I loved the ending. I wish I could discuss at length here, but I really have some sleeping to do.

Just some quick responses...

Halfrek has been a friend of Anya's for a long, long time now. Further, she is the only one who stuck by her, even when all the others deserted her for not crankin' out the grisly veangance spells. And whether she was the most important thing in Anya's life is not the point. The point is that Anya believed she was about to commit a selfless act, and atone for her sins...and instead, she ended up killing a friend of hers. She thought she was giving up her own life, and instead her actions directly caused another death. And that is what struck her so hard. Also the fact that now she has nobody. Hally stood by her. Now, she doesn't have Xander or the SG to be by her side, nor does she have Hally.

And about the spell-reversal...Anya was able to reverse Ronnie, because he had not been killed. He had been turned into the worm demon, so she was able to change him back. But in this case, spell-reversal would require much more power than she herself has...because it requires resurrecting 12 people. Even Willow says that she wouldn't be capable of that. Anya does not have the power, but D'Hoffryn, the head veangance demon, does. Whether he made up the rule on the spot or not is open for debate, but he is the one with the upper hand. He's the one who says what goes. Maybe he could have reversed the spell without anyone's sacrifice...but then he wouldn't have had his mind-f*&#! revenge on Anya.

We have seen veangance spells revoked by destroying the demon's power source (The Wish), by outsmarting the demon (Older and Far Away). We've even seen a demon willingly take back her relatively minor spell (Beneath You). But we have never seen a situation such as Anya's--someone who lost her demonhood and later regained it, and when she did, did not enjoy her status anymore...a veangance demon actually asking her master to undo a spell that she doesn't have the power to. That's why I don't see this as conflicting with any pre-established mythology on the show, because this situation is unprecedented.

Or, actually, maybe not so...Anya, as a Veangance Demon, knows that the wishes never turn out the way the women envision them. We know that Veangance Demons are dishonest. They deliver your wish, but with a twist. D'Hoffryn said that the death of a Veangance Demon was required, so Anya assumed he meant her. But that was not specified. And if the wording ain't perfectly correct, you never know what could happen. We saw what happened with Dawn's wish that people would not be able to go away from her, or the girl in this ep's wish that everyone in the room would feel what it's like to have their hearts torn out.

Therefore, this rule, while we don't know whether D'Hoffryn made it up on the spot or not, is perfectly in keeping with how we know the Veangance Demons usually behave.

Rob

P.S. If you're wondering why I keep typing out "Veangance Demon," I just feel weird abbreviating it to the initials! lol

[> [> Vengence (sp) -- ..., 22:09:58 10/22/02 Tue

[> [> [> Actually we both spelled it wrong! lol! It's "vengeance"! -- Rob, 22:13:40 10/22/02 Tue

[> Re: About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Amber, 22:04:42 10/22/02 Tue

D'Hoffryn did specify that killing the Frat boys had been vengence of a pretty high magnitude. The hearts being ripped out were part of the wish, in the other cases deaths were more like side effects of the wish. Even though the gilted girl probably didn't know what she was getting into, she did wish to have their hearts ripped out. (You know Anya, she's strangely literal and doesn't grasp metaphor well.)

I'm willing to buy D'Hoffryn's logic, after all he's leader of the vengence demons, isn't it likely he makes up the rules as he goes along? Also, based on the flashback and previous episodes we've seen, yes, I would say that Halfrek's death will have a devestating affect on Anya. Halfrek is Anya's oldest friend. Next to Xander, Hallie is probably the person Anya has cared about the most throughout her 1000+ years.

I loved this episode, but I think it's biggest weakness is that they should have just smashed Anya's amulet. Giles didn't try to kill Anyanka in "The Wish" he smashed her amulet and she lost her powers. Why didn't the Scoobies try that first before resorting to killing?

[> [> Check out my response to Veronica, for my take on that. -- Rob, 22:14:49 10/22/02 Tue

[> [> What amulet? -- Traveler, 22:20:51 10/22/02 Tue

Sorry, I may just be blind here, but I haven't noticed Anya wearing an amulet? Could she have stored it somewhere else where the scooby gang couldn't find it, even if they knew it existed? However, I agree that part of the point of this episode was to show that Buffy resorted too easily to a "hack and slash" solution, as D' Hoffrin pointed out.

[> [> [> Re: What amulet? -- Amber, 01:01:53 10/23/02 Wed

Watch carefully, the amulet is the necklace Anya has been wearing for the past few episodes. I think it has a black stone in the centre. It's been there ever since the episode last season (can't remember its name) in which Anya's facing the audience and her back is too Xander and she says something like "It's too late" and then we see her vengence demon face.

Ever since that ep. she's either wearing the necklace visibly or you can see the silver chain and the amulet itself is tucked under her shirt.

[> [> [> [> Doh! -- Traveler, 04:12:17 10/23/02 Wed

I guess I am blind. Oh well. Have the scoobies done the research in this timeline to discover the source of her power?

[> Halfrek **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Traveler, 22:12:23 10/22/02 Tue

"How come suddenly there's a rule that a wish reversal requires a vengeance demon's death? And even if we can finesse that, did anyone else feel that Halfrek was important enought to Anyanka that her death would cause the suffering that D'Hoffryn seemed to be gloating about?"

I think one of the goals of this episode was to show that Any and Haly have been friends for centuries. Remember Anya saying something to the effect of, "I'm glad you're still my friend," to Halfrek? Also, this wasn't just the reversal of a wish. Anya creating the demons was the wish. Negating the wish would just make the demons go away. Just as the woman's dog didn't come back after Anya negated her worm wish, the frat boys wouldn't come back after the demons are gone. D' Hoffrin actually reversed time or something equally strange and powerful.

[> Re: About those wishes... **Spoilers for 7.05** -- Rufus, 22:43:08 10/22/02 Tue

We must remember that reversing the spell didn't bring poor Rocky back.....sob!....also Ronnie wasn't dead so there may be another type of rule for that compared to deaths related to the mystical creature created as a result of a wish. Those boys died a mystical death......so the price was different.......or....maybe Drew never read the script or transcript for The Wish.......or he did and is messing with our minds.

Was is just me or was anyone else creeped out by the spider demon?

[> Re: it's not that simple (spoilers about Wish in S3) -- Sang, 02:46:06 10/23/02 Wed

The way Anya became a human was kind of special. Usual vengeance wish is hurting a person directly and it happens at present time. But Cordy's wish was indirect and also recurring. She wished that Buffy never came to Sunnydale. She asked to change a past event. In consequence, an alternative world replaced a real one.

Anya herself told Giles, she never thought this kind of thing would happen. That means Cordy's wish was extremely rare event even for vengeance demons.

When Giles broke Anya's amulte in alternative universe, it reverse the world back to the original.

Now there are some tricky points.
Just before she granted Cordy's wish, she turned into a high school girl to lure Cordy. Since her amulet is missing in the other world. She is stuck in human body. That was an accident. And breaking of amulet happened in now non-existing world, so the source of the demon power was completely lost.

My guess is that breaking amulet just takes away the power of wish. In normal case, it may take away the power of wish but cannot change a demon into a human.

Hmm.. one question, how powerful is D'Hoffryn? It looks like he is even more powerful than Dark Willow.

[> [> How powerful is D'Hoffryn? (spoilers about Wish in S3) -- Rob, 06:59:36 10/23/02 Wed

I would assume he must be a hugely powerful demon, since he is the head of all Vengeance Demons, who seem to be among the more powerful demons. It is very hard to kill them, and can wreak a great deal with their powers. And he's their leader!

Rob

And one more thing before I go to sleep... -- MayaPapaya9, 22:19:41 10/22/02 Tue

They finally addressed it! That betrayal of Xander's which I have not forgiven him for since Season 2. My jaw literally dropped (which is actually standard fare for Tuesday nights) when Willow cried out, "Huh, I didn't say that!"

Ohhh for two glorious seconds I thought they were actually going to resolve this nagging issue but NO, they skimmed right over it and Buffy STILL doesn't know the real reason Angel went to hell that day. Okay, okay, maybe I'm being too hard on Xander but I think it is a valid point to say that things might have been different if she'd known that Willow was doing the soul restoration spell. She would have been able to save him. Come on, we all know Buffy, with the proper motivation the girl can save anything and anybody.

I just CANNOT believe they would tease us like that, making for two seconds that they were actually going to tie up this loose end and then zooming right past it like no other. Wait, why am I so surprised, this is ME's work. I should be used to this by now!

It's okay Joss, I still love you!
-Maya

[> Sleep soundly tonight. Just wait. It's not over. Xander's turn is coming. -NT -- ZachsMind, 22:22:39 10/22/02 Tue

[> They didn't skim over it! (spoilers for 7.5) -- Rob, 22:28:31 10/22/02 Tue

Buffy knew that Willow had done the spell. She's very smart, makes connections that others don't. She realized it the moment Angel came back to her at the last moments of "Becoming" what had happened. What she never did before was confront Xander about his lie to her, because after leaving town and going through all she did, it became a thing of the past. The important thing was that she pointed out Xander's hypocrisy, something that she has been holding in throughout his entire relationship with Anya, and in his anger at her for sleeping with Spike. I read this completely differently. I said, "Hallelujah! They finally addressed this issue head-on!" What more needed to be said? Buffy heard Willow say that she never said that, and at that point, all the pieces came together, and knew what had happened.

Rob

[> [> What I find fascinating... -- ZachsMind, 22:40:12 10/22/02 Tue

Is that they took what seemed like a little thing at the end of season two, and linked it to a more powerful plot arc here in season seven. They coulda glossed over it, or completely ignored it, and other shows would have. I mean the intricate complex fabric that Whedon's team is weaving here is of EPIC proportions, while simultaneously being very subtle and dignified.

Damn. This show should win a frickin' Emmy.

[> [> [> Me too. -- Rob, 22:47:32 10/22/02 Tue

In fact, as the argument between Xander and Buffy started, and Xander challenged Buffy's need to kill Anya, I thought to myself, "But what about how you pushed her to kill Angel? What's the difference between how you love a demon, and how Buffy did?" And Ithought, "Nah, they'll never bring that up. I see the link, but that doesn't mean they will." A lesser show wouldn't have.

But lo and behold! They actually did address it, thus, as you said, adding even more layers to an already incredibly complex situation. This made the struggle between Buffy and Anya mean so much more, because it also spoke to differences in idealogy that Xander and Buffy have always had with each other...and so much philosophical goodness.

In a post farther down on the page, I wrote that in that scene, ME accomplished brilliant cross-referencing of episodes, situations, and character subtexts the likes of which I've only seen on Masq's site! I'm so glad we didn't have to just see the links between Anya and Angel ourselves, but know that the characters do too.

Rob

[> [> [> [> I think it's not over though... -- ZachsMind, 23:07:14 10/22/02 Tue

Willow's probably gonna bring that up again to Xander. And when she tells Buffy and she puts two and two together, Xander's gonna find himself on the hot seat. They can't go back in time and undo it, but they can theorize that had Xander told Buffy exactly what Willow said, Buffy might not have had to kill Angel, and so Xander's gonna lose points. They're gonna hold a grudge against him, causing him to go and do something stupid to try and prove himself.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think it's not over though... -- Snyper404, 02:02:43 10/23/02 Wed

Actually, Buffy did have to kill Angel either way. It was just like in The Gift - Angel or the whole world. But this time, Buffy couldn't sacrifice herself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think it's not over though... -- Kitkat, 02:19:48 10/23/02 Wed

Not if she had been able to stop Angelus from touching the sword in the demon with his blood and thus activating the portal - he did that part way through the fight, while Buffy was busy with another vampire. Only after that was it inevitable that he would have to die - just as it was only inevitable that Buffy or Dawn would have to die after Dawn was cut by Doc. If Buffy had known Willow was trying the spell she might have done everything she could to keep Angelus away from the portal until the spell kicked in.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think it's not over though... -- Mystery, 09:34:47 10/23/02 Wed

I kind of think that Buffy knew all along that Xander relayed her the wrong message from Willow. To me, her quote seemed very sarcastic and Willow stopped short kind of like Buffy gave her a "I know, Will" gesture (from off-screen). I have to watch it again to get the nuance. But I believe that Buffy knew from the moment that Angel got his soul back, that Willow's real message was omitted and replaced with one Xander made up. In "Dead Man's Party," it really looked like she was going to tear into Xander but they were interrupted by the zombies. And it didn't come up again. Then Xander was dating Anya, and Buffy just assumed Xander finally understood what it was like for Buffy.

I also think that Buffy is just as upset about the Xander-Anya breakup. I went over the scripts for "Triangle" and Buffy seemed very adamant that Xander's and Anya's love would last forever. She even said that the two gives her hope that real love does exist. Do you think she always saw Anya and Xander as the thing she always wanted with Angel? That maybe now, she gets the hope that if Xander and Anya can get back together after this, after they find their own paths and Anya grows up more, maybe one day, Buffy herself will be grown up enough for Angel?

Just some thoughts.

Cruel to be kind: First impressions of "Selfless" -- HonorH, 23:16:21 10/22/02 Tue

First of all, let me say here and now that anyone who hijacks this thread for character bashing will meet Honorificus' evil alter ego. By that, I mean my real evil half. The half that slices and dices with words the way Buffy slices and dices with swords. I *will* flame you in a particularly nasty way. Be warned.

Why? Because using this episode for character bashing is totally and completely missing the point to the tune that I'm concerned about your brain if you're doing so.

Aud/Anyanka/Anya: Let me say, first and foremost, that EC is a wonderful actress who really brought these three women to life for me. These three very different creatures, really. Aud the housewife, bitter from Olaf's betrayal. Anyanka, so happily a demon that she saw nothing but work. Anya, who saw nothing but Xander. Anya, who is alone at the end, trying to discover who she is. Anya, who sought an end to it all--through Buffy first, then D'Hoffryn.

Buffy: Heartless? Only because she needs to be. Anya has never been alone. Buffy always has. In the end, she has to make the hard decisions. She has to be the one to stick the sword through Angel. She has to face the decision to sacrifice herself or kill the person she loves most. And she has to face down her friends when they go wrong.

Spike: The thing that struck me in the Double Buffy scene was that one was a 'shipper's dream--sympathetic, sweet Buffy, giving Spike only succor. The other was real Buffy, getting down to brass tacks. Spike had to get out of the basement. Buffy saw that. She more or less ordered him to get out because hey--he needs to. And remember, we didn't see the end of the scene. She may have a location in mind for him to move to. She may even have moved him herself.

The reason she seemed so hard in this scene was that she was contrasted with Sweet!Buffy. But Sweet!Buffy was also useless. Hard!Buffy may be just what Spike needs. Not a Buffy who'll encourage romantic fantasies--which she cannot entertain anymore--but one who will help him no matter what her personal feelings are. Also, and I can say this from experience--when someone is hysterical or irrational, the voice of command often works where sympathy will not. Buffy was commanding Spike, and he responded to that with some clarity. It's a step.

Xander: I love him. I love him because he wears his heart right out where the world can see it. Buffy has to kill Anya, and Xander cannot bear the thought. He fights her with his words, even going on the attack. But it's all for Anya, because he truly loves her, demon or no. I felt for him. Yes, his words were ill-chosen, yes, they were hurtful, but can you imagine yourself in that situation? Stuck between the woman you love and your best friend, who has announced her intention to kill the former? He reacted as anyone would--with his heart.

Willow: Oh, she treads a fine line. She tried to help Anya--she really did. Because she understands the call of vengeance and the weight it places on your heart. Because she knows what blood on your hands feels like. So she helps as best she can. The magic, though, still has so much hold on her, and she's so frightened that she, too, may end up on Anya's path.

This is my favorite episode this year. We got to see so much raw emotion from all the characters. It was incredibly painful, but oh, so good.

Now: be nice.

[> Agree 110%, HonorH! And if ya need to get evil, I'll provide my evil alter-ego for backup also. ;o) -- Rob, 23:22:41 10/22/02 Tue

[> [> Evil alter-ego..? (more spoilers) -- ZachsMind, 23:43:39 10/22/02 Tue

I don't think I personally have one. Like the characters in the series, I just am what I am, and sometimes what I do or say is perceived as evil by others. Sometimes it's perceived as good. However, as Giles pointed out, no matter how we change we are ultimately who and what we are.

What I think I loved most about tonight's show was how they managed to tie together plot elements from practically every season, as well as delving into aspects of Anya's entire history that we've only heard or seen glimpses of before. It seemed like the movie "Highlander" in a way, how the writer was jumping between the past and the present back and forth with the grace of a ballerina.

Aside from Anya, almost every season of the series was represented. When Xander lied to Buffy about Willow telling her to kick Angel's ass. That was season two. When Willow went to get the D'Hoffryn talisman, that harkened back to season four when D'Hoffryn first gave it to her. Spike battling with his soul was of course ramifications from season six, as was Willow's cautious and risky use of her magicks, and when she turned to the girl and told her to quit whining. I don't recall Anya ever being this empowered since her first appearance in season three. The false Buffy that was trying to console Spike echoed the simpler times of season five, when on rare occasion, Buffy was actually nice to him. It was like watching all these frayed plot pieces that have been left hanging for seasons just start to fall into place. If they can keep this up between now and the season seven finale, this will end up being the best season ever for the series, because it's when everything starts to come together. We're not there yet though, because although this episode did answer some questions, it simultaneously asked so many more questions.

I was talking with the BuffyRadio gang as they watched the show, preparing for their preshow, and one thing that amazed them was how so much was jampacked into this one show. It felt longer than it was, because so much was happening. We definitely got our money's worth tonight.

Tonight's episode is fast becoming one of my favorite episodes they've ever done. It ranks up there with "Halloween," "Phases," "The Zeppo," "Dead Man's Party," "Hush," "Restless" and "Once More With Feeling." Maybe it's not THE best episode ever, but "Selfless" was excellent in every way imaginable. Just when I think the ME gang can't top themselves, they do.

[> [> [> Re: Reply to HonorH - BIG Spoilers -- Angelina, 13:22:03 10/23/02 Wed

Your post was exceptional. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about "Xander's Lie" and Willow's defense "I never said that". It is my opinion that Buffy really didn't grasp the enormity of Willow's remark. This is going to have to be addressed. It has ALWAYS bothered me that Xander never had to face the music on that one. It was an insidious moment on X's part, and I truly think he needs to be called on it. His actions are more that just a tad responsible for Buffy having to banish her beloved Angel to Hell, which action was a catalyst to all of Buffy's behavior's that follow. It was THE turning point of her life and that turning point was based on her best friend's lie. X's hatred of Angel overwhelmed his love for Buffy; betrayed any empathy he may have had for her. Now he wants Buffy's acceptance of HIS love for a demon! The resolution to this is NOT going to be pretty, but it must be faced. Perhaps, as I said in another post, her final acceptance/forgiveness of X's lie, could be a stepping stone to her forgiveness of Spike? Also, could we be looking at a Buffy/Angel reunion? I understand Faith is returning to both shows at the end of the season....I wonder if Faith will pick up where B leaves off. I am really really gonna miss this show IF it ends this season
:-( Again, excellent work.

[> [> [> [> Re: Reply to HonorH - BIG Spoilers -- HonorH, 17:48:27 10/23/02 Wed

Good thoughts, Angelina. Since they brought up Xander's lie, I'm guessing it'll be something they'll have to discuss again. I think that at the moment it came out, Buffy had her mind too much on the immediate situation with Anya to pay it much attention. Willow is another story. She definitely noticed, and I'm thinking she'll have a little something to say to Xander about it. I can't imagine Willow being judgmental right now, but learning that Xander misrepresented her to Buffy in a situation like that can't make her happy.

In Xander's defense, he has grown greatly since "Becoming." All of them have. However, he wronged Buffy then, and it's never been addressed. And yes, it has colored Buffy's relationships, as it's coloring her relating to Spike now. Loving Angel brought her such pain, and now she's got another vampire with a soul to deal with. She does care, or she wouldn't be going down to roust him out of the basement. Forgiving him, though, will be a complex thing, as she's also got a lot of forgiving of herself to do.

Seeing as they deliberately paralleled Xander/Anya to Buffy/Spike this episode, I think that it will indeed be a stepping stone to Buffy coming to terms with Spike--and herself. It will also, I think, be a stepping stone to Xander and Buffy having a deeper understanding of each other if they handle it right. He, Buffy, and Dawn became so close over the summer, and the returns of Willow, Spike, and Anya upset that family unit. Hopefully, they can find that closeness again.

[> [> [> [> [> But what about. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:56:32 10/23/02 Wed

. . .Buffy's absence? I think part of Xander's punishment may be the absence of Buffy over the summer. It was made pretty clear how much they all missed her and how overwhelming trying to replace her role as the Slayer was.

Also, I think Buffy probably put two-and-two together sometime shortly after she sent Angel into Hell. "Why would Willow tell me to kick Angel's ass if she was trying to resoul him?" Answer: She wouldn't. Thus, Buffy most likely realized Xander's lie, but never brought it up until now. Though, it is a revelation for Willow. Still, I doubt it will become an issue. When Willow went after Warren, did any of the characters bring up Buffy's attempt to kill Faith? Nope, because it happened so long ago it's hard for them to argue it with the same fire that their current dilemmas have.

Oh, and has anyone else noticed the parallel between Xander's lie in Becoming and Buffy's refusal to kill Angel in Innocence?

[> [> [> [> [> [> That would be a separate issue. -- HonorH, 19:03:35 10/23/02 Wed

Certainly, I think there were some consequences for Xander for his lie, but compared to the ones Buffy reaped? Small potatoes. Aside from that, it's nowhere near the same thing to Buffy figuring it out and directly confronting him about it. And certainly, she should've known before, but frankly, I think the whole thing was so painful she tried her best *not* to think about it.

I don't think there'll be punishment for Xander in all this. Karmic payback's hit him big time, and that's enough for me--and, I think, Buffy. But it would behoove them to dialogue.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I still think they might take the "water under the bridge" route and not discuss it much if at all. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:07:25 10/23/02 Wed

And it's a fact of the Buffyverse that sometimes good people are punished for no reason at all. Yes, Xander got off light considering what happened to Buffy, but karma isn't always exact in the realverse or Buffyverse. Still, I give him some leniency considering the possibility of what happened in Becoming probably never occured to him. You gotta admit, things had to go exactly the wrong way in order for that to happen.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But what about. . . -- Juliet, 19:12:57 10/23/02 Wed

Also, I think Buffy probably put two-and-two together sometime shortly after she sent Angel into Hell. "Why would Willow tell me to kick Angel's ass if she was trying to resoul him?" Answer: She wouldn't. Thus, Buffy most likely realized Xander's lie, but never brought it up until now.

In an early season three episode, where Buffy confesses everything that happens to Giles (I think it's Faith, Hope, and Trick), she says to Willow, "Your spell worked at the last minute", clearly indicating she thought it was the first spell (from Becoming Pt 1) finally taking affect. Willow was probably confused but brushed it off in exchange for the heavier news of how Angel went to hell.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Reply to HonorH - BIG Spoilers -- Angelina, 08:38:12 10/24/02 Thu

I think we need to keep our eyes open for continuation of "The Lie". I think we will definately hear more about this, since, contrary to popular belief, I strongly feel that Buffy does NOT have any idea that X lied about this. There is no evidence to support that she does, AND I think, had she ANY idea about X's duplicity, she would have brought this up during her tirade to X in "Selfless". So....now that half of the cat is out of the bag, let's hope the other half of the cat has nine lives!
Thanks for your ideas HonorH.

[> 7.5 spoilers up top, and an addendum: -- HonorH, 23:46:05 10/22/02 Tue

I just wanted to say I can handle disagreement (Honorificus can't, but that's another story). I just don't want any, "But Buffy was such a bitch! And Xander was such a prick!" idiocy. That reduces dialogue to the level of, "Was not!" "Was too!" "Was not!" ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Don't be afraid to disagree with me. Truly. We're nice people!

[> no flaming here! (spoilers, though) -- celticross, 23:51:50 10/22/02 Tue

And this from one whose feelings for Buffy are usually lukewarm at best. Tonight I really felt for her.

First of all, I want to know where they've been hiding Drew Goddard. Because he managed to write an episode in which baggage was dragged out of the Scoobs' *very* dark closets and addressed. Which is a very good thing. Buffy, Willow, and Xander haven't exactly been very honest and sharing for the last year or so (and longer, as the mention of The Lie proves). It happens in any friendship, but that doesn't make it ok. Talking's good, even though it can hurt.

As for Buffy...poor, poor girl. It's funny how it took an episode in which she had her sheriff's hat on so tight it had to hurt for me to truly see how alone she is, rather than her years of protesting her desire for normalacy. Her remark on having to kill Angel cemented that for me. She had to kill her first love, and I think she feels if she ever forgets that she had to do that, she'll forget what she is. Clearly, that was the moment that crystallized for her how hard being the Slayer really is, and it's interesting that she goes after Anya with sword in hand after saying this. Did she not remember that a sword failed to kill Hallie in OAFA? Or was there something more to it? She and Anya were never close (despite Xander's protestations), but having to over-ride his objections falls into the catagory of hard to do, I'd say.

As for Xander, yay him for sticking to his guns. He didn't want Buffy to kill Anya, and he stayed with that. I'm not making any judgement calls on who was right or wrong, simply glad that Xander didn't back down. He was right about the shades of grey (and for him to being seeing them finally is worth of a small cheer, too) and this episode was a big ole helping of grey. THIS is my kind of dark.

[> [> They have been hiding Drew Goddard... -- TeacherBoy, 00:23:48 10/23/02 Wed

..wait, let me back up. When I first heard ME had hired a writer named Drew Goddard, my first thought was something really deep along the lines of, 'Huh, I wonder if he's related to Robert Goddard [the father of modern rocketry].' This is because I am a dork, and like to think I am quite the amatuer astronomer.

Turns out? He is. Really. He is the great-grandson of Robert Goddard, which I think is the coolest thing in the world.

Oh yeah. HonorH? I cannot agree with you more. I was all set to write out a really long agreement to your post, but it will have to wait, as it is late even for a West Coaster.

TeacherBoy, still reeling from tonight's ep. Reeling in a good way, not a 'I have a concussion' way.

[> [> Re: no flaming here! (spoilers, though) -- Rufus, 01:50:25 10/23/02 Wed

Now Xander has lived in Buffy's shoes....he was in the same position in this episode that Buffy was in Season two. He had to face the loss of a loved one....and he couldn't do it....but Buffy has, and thought her friends were the cheerleaders on the sidelines. Her pain over that act has never left her, and I feel is part of the problem with her dealing with Spike now.....he is a demon, does she dare risk getting close enough to care, while all the time knowing it could end up with a sword to the heart. I think the sword was just a visual link back to that point in Becoming two when as a Slayer, Buffy only had herself and her blade. Spike and the idea of Spike with a soul must scare the sh*t out of her because as far as she has come she now has to look back and deal with where she had been with Angel.

[> [> [> Re: no flaming here! (spoilers, though) -- celticross, 08:38:24 10/23/02 Wed

"Spike and the idea of Spike with a soul must scare the sh*t out of her because as far as she has come she now has to look back and deal with where she had been with Angel."

I wonder if she'll say that. She mentioned Angel in reference to the difficulty of the choices she must make. Will she mention how Angel and his soul could be coloring her view of Spike's situation? Then we'd really have some air clearing!

[> Re: Cruel to be kind: First impressions of "Selfless" -- Traveler, 00:00:22 10/23/02 Wed

"Buffy: Heartless? Only because she needs to be."

Buffy may think that she needs to be, but that doesn't make it so. Remember, love is her strength.

"Spike: we didn't see the end of the scene. She may have a location in mind for him to move to. She may even have moved him herself."

Obviously, this will make a big difference in how we interpret the scene. Guess we'll have to wait an see.

I can't find anything to argue with in the rest of your post. :p

[> [> You bring up a point: -- HonorH, 09:42:24 10/23/02 Wed

"Buffy: Heartless? Only because she needs to be."

Buffy may think that she needs to be, but that doesn't make it so. Remember, love is her strength.

And I wonder if part of the theme of this season will be Buffy learning to integrate all parts of her personality. The last time she was able to do that was "The Gift." "This is the work I have to do," she told Dawn before jumping. Buffy loved; the Slayer responded. After her emotional turmoil of last year, I wonder if she's going to be able to find a way for Buffy and the Slayer to fully integrate, or if it'll hurt too much. Angel, Willow, Anya--to love and fight them at the same time has taken a toll on Buffy's heart.

[> Re: Cruel to be kind: First impressions of "Selfless" -- Miss Edith, 04:14:43 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy is being confronted with things that don't fit into her world view and is becoming more slayerlike as a result. Anya is a demon so cannot be saved. Avoid Spike because he sought a soul and suggests life cannot be defined in black and white categries. Buffy is even dressed in black and white in the scenes with Spike and neither Buffy can get through to Spike. What we need is a Buffy that can accept the grey in life and integrate her slaying side with her humanity.

[> [> Buffy's clothes -- Sophie, 08:15:08 10/23/02 Wed

Excellent point! I hadn't noticed but you're right. Buffy is wearing black and white and behaving black and white, whereas in other eps this season she is wearing grey and behaving "grey".

Sophie

[> [> And this is reinforced by the reference to Poe -- Caroline, 10:52:16 10/23/02 Wed

Where Spike refers to Montresor. In the Cask of Amontillado where Montresor makes his appearance, we have a really unreliable narrator. This paralles the situation where white-top Buffy is false, an illusion whereas black-tip Buffy is real.

[> [> [> is either Buffy real? (spoilers Selfless) -- Shiraz, 14:03:05 10/23/02 Wed

"This paralles the situation where white-top Buffy is false, an illusion whereas black-tip Buffy is real."

Do we know this?

I mean, how do we know that the black-clad Buffy was any more real than the other? Couldn't she just a different, less pleasant, more practical version of the delusional-Spike Buffy? I mean there has got to be a part of Spike-William that realizes he has to get off his Gothic-Revivalist ass and get out of there.

Just muddying the waters a bit.

[> [> [> [> Good point and funny as hell as always :-) -- Juliet, 19:15:52 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: is either Buffy real? (spoilers Selfless) -- Caroline, 09:04:57 10/24/02 Thu

As a practical matter, since she goes through the rest of the ep with said black top, I assume, in the absence of an alternative universe, that she is 'real'. But I do think there is a point to be made about the unintegrated or fractured nature of Buffy's psyche at this time - symbolized by the two Buffys. She is an illusion to Spike but we (the viewers) know from the past that Buffy is capable of compassion.

[> Doing my dance of joy (7.5 spoilers) -- ponygirl, 07:19:35 10/23/02 Wed

No flames from me. I am still on a giddy high from this episode! From an Anya episode! Oops was that a mini-flame? It was so wonderful to see all the core Scoobies working, if not together, but at least coming at the same problem from their own particular perspectives. Yes, there was a lot of talk of seeing and perspectives last night. Xander sees with the eyes of love, Buffy sees the solution to a problem in a sword, Anyanka could not see the world past vengenance. Only Willow was able to look at the problem in a new way -- or is that her particular perspective? Find a way around the problem with a bit of trickery?

And we finally get Buffy to articulate what she is feeling! To help us to understand what the years of making the hard choices, of being the one who has to go out with the sword to kill people she cares about has done to her. She has my sympathy, but also my concern. She is setting herself apart, setting herself above demons and everyone else in the world. She's so going to be paying for that "I am the law" statement, I just know it.

[> [> Re: Doing my dance of joy (7.5 spoilers) -- DEN, 07:58:56 10/23/02 Wed

When Buffy said "I am the law" the absence of Giles hit me like a fist--not GIles as the "Watcher" of a slayer still realizing her powers, but as the yang to Buffy's yin: reflection balancing action.

[> [> [> Re: Doing my dance of joy (7.5 spoilers) -- ponygirl less dance-y after an hour long meeting, 10:24:35 10/23/02 Wed

Oh yes, the comment about "no all-knowing Council" was pretty loaded. There seem to be no checks and balances to Buffy's power anymore, which I can only imagine is going to lead to problems.

[> [> [> [> Consider the Council you're talking about. -- HonorH (blitzed on cold medicine), 23:13:17 10/23/02 Wed

When's the last time they did Buffy any favors? She lost her feeling that they were "all-knowing" after the Cruciamentum, if, indeed, she ever thought they were at all. They've abused their power far more than Buffy's ever abused hers.

I think what Buffy was referring to is that ultimately, no matter what anyone says or does, she stands alone. She always has. She has to make the final decision in order to protect humankind, and when that decision is wrong, everyone suffers. She's acutely aware that she cannot allow Anya to go on doing what she's doing, even if she wants to spare Anya. She has to enforce the "law," even when it goes against her heart.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Consider the Council you're talking about. -- ponygirl, 06:43:03 10/24/02 Thu

I agree with the Council bash, other than Giles we have never seen anything positive come from the CoW, and Giles himself has always been portrayed as a bit of rebel against their authority. My concern is that this is a show which always has had a strong anti-authority stance, and now Buffy is quite definitely the authority figure. Buffy does stand alone, but she is setting herself up as judge, jury and executioner. Who has created the law that she has come to embody? And law that is enforced against the wishes of the heart sounds like it is headed towards justice untempered by mercy. I'm not saying that that is where Buffy is, but that I have doubts about where she could be headed.

[> [> [> [> Re: Doing my dance of joy (7.5 spoilers) and major speculation -- Tyresius, 14:35:30 10/24/02 Thu

This comment, above all, has really got me thinking about Buffy's path. Could Buffy herself be the "big bad" of the season? If there is no authority to tell her yes/no, right/wrong, etc. - what if the hellmouth has the ability to cloud her conscience in some major ways? What if she starts to become somewhat Faith-like?

Just some massive speculation - and probably not likely given that she is the title character and hero, but I wouldn't put it past ME. It would also give them an interesting way to end SMG's involvement with the show.

[> and what about D'H -- neaux, 08:39:24 10/23/02 Wed

is it just me or did D'Hoffrin's voice slip into a "Dr. Evil" voice more than once.

weird.

[> Basement scene = Microcosm of Ep? -- HarryParachute, 09:27:12 10/23/02 Wed

Just got a thought. Got a midterm tomorrow, a class in two hours or so, and I'm deranged, so this'll be haphazardly thought out.

Sweet!Buffy is Xander. Hard!Buffy is Buffy. Spike is Anya.

I'd disagree that Sweet!Buffy is entirely useless. Spike becomes entirely coherent when conversing with his delusion/the morphing evil/whatever it is. It brings him peace of mind and inner calm...much like a drug...and so at the same time all this cuddlin' makes him complacent to stay on the Hellmouth. He doesn't go anywhere, remains stagnant, and doesn't develop. He clings.

Then Hard!Buffy shows up. She gives Spike good advice that would actually help him do some true healing...but the delivery and tone doesn't prove to be a good vehicle for said advice. Spike turns into a gibbering, giggling loon and pulls away from her, regressing to what he was earlier in the season.

So, when Xander deals with Anya, she might calm herself a bit...but she won't accept responsibility. When Buffy deals with Anya it's what she needs to face about herself...but she then lashes out.

D'Hoffryn sums it up with comparing "Miss Hacksaway" to He Who Sees With the Eyeballs of Love. Anya, like Spike, ultimately has to make a choice and give herself a push.

...

While I'm thinking about him...anyone else like the irony of Anyanka having spent 1100 some odd years devoted to her job, thinking herself as a "girl-power" man-eating avenger of the female sex, only to be treated as a, pardon me for saying so, cheap whore by D'Hoffryn?

"I've got more girls" or whatever he said. Killing one of them to drive the point home. Hurting Anya more than words can say when she won't turn a trick for him. Pimp!D'Hoffryn! Someone get that man a feathered hat and cane!

...

Umm...what else? I'm wary of the new Buffy. Others have suggested she's still dealing with the aftermath of Cassie and that's made her a little colder and fatalistic. "I am the law" is creepy to me. I'm more partial to having a law and following it than to making it up as you go. Actually, the scene where Xander/Buffy/Willow clash is such a complicated, icky mess I'm not even gonna go there.

But I think it IS telling when Buffy and Anya repeat each others lines before they fight. Our Hero echoing sentiments of a demon resigned to her fate. *shudder*

AND...I'm worried for Buffy due to the opening of the season. In the premiere episodes from every season past, Buffy had to conquer some sort of angst/inner turmoil/inner struggle/discomfort/what have you. In Lessons she was completely in control and at the top of her game. This, to me, is a bad, bad, BAD sign for the buffster.

Anyone able to make any sense out of what I've said?

[> [> Excellent observation! -- Scroll, 10:18:44 10/23/02 Wed

I hope you don't mind I paraphrased some of what you wrote:

Sweet!Buffy is Xander. Hard!Buffy is Buffy. Spike is Anya.

[Sweet!Buffy] brings him peace of mind and inner calm...much like a drug...and so at the same time all this cuddlin' makes him complacent to stay on the Hellmouth. He doesn't go anywhere, remains stagnant, and doesn't develop. He clings.

[Hard!Buffy] gives Spike good advice that would actually help him do some true healing...but the delivery and tone doesn't prove to be a good vehicle for said advice.

So, when Xander deals with Anya, she might calm herself a bit...but she won't accept responsibility. When Buffy deals with Anya it's what she needs to face about herself...but she then lashes out.

This seems to work incredibly well with Xander's hammer analogy and the thread (forgot who posted this) about how the real key to using a hammer is finding the balance between power and control. This is something that Xander and Buffy need to negotiate between themselves. Neither is fully wrong or fully right in their intent, but both are clumsy in their approach. A middle ground needs to be made so that Xander/Buffy can finally deal with Anya/Spike.

I'm more partial to having a law and following it than to making it up as you go.

So am I, really. But Buffy does have a point; there are no lawyers (other than evil ones in L.A.), no court of law, no judge or jury, when it comes to dealing with demons. It's all down to the Slayer. Buffy doesn't have the luxury of letting other people make the hard decisions. She is the town sheriff, making those tough calls--and she has been ever since she thrust a sword into the man she loved for the sake of the world. Btw, I think SMG portrayed Buffy's reluctance and resignation at the thought of killing Anya very well. I really do get the sense that Buffy has been quietly thinking about Anyanka all summer, especially after "Beneath You".

Actually, the scene where Xander/Buffy/Willow clash is such a complicated, icky mess I'm not even gonna go there.

Very true! But it's sooo much fun. I'm so glad ME is finally resolving the season 2 issues. It's been a long time coming, I think.

[> [> [> Re: Excellent observation! -- Freki, 11:57:51 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy's clothing also supports the hammer analogy. Sweet!Buffy is dressed in white, and Hard!Buffy is dressed in black, at opposite ends of the spectrum. One poster said they didn't feel that the basement scene with Spike belonged in the episode, but as you point out, it's the theme of the episode, and maybe of the entire season, in a nutshell.

Also going back to S2 references, I kept thinking of WML, when Buffy told Kendra "My emotions give me power. They're total assets." Now she seems to be cutting herself off from her emotions, and I can't help but think that in this season about power, that's not going to be a good thing.

[> [> I'm with you HP -- Caroline, 10:47:50 10/23/02 Wed

[> Trying to be "nice" -- Dariel, 09:37:38 10/23/02 Wed

I'm not a Buffy basher, and avoid using the B word to describe any female (In print, of course, can't always stop what comes out of my mouth in times of stress!).

And I feel a lot of sympathy for Buffy, at least after thinking about the episode awhile. However, I can't be a cheerleader for her actions. Heartless? Well, no; her heart was there, but it was definitely malfunctioning. (That weakness of the heart postulated by Dyna?)

I won't say much about the Spike scene, 'cause it was very confusing; hard to say if it was even real. However, I agree with (I think it was Miss Edith) in saying that the two Buffy's represented two extremes, neither of which was very helpful. One was coddling Spike (tolerating his talk about Dru--gah!), and the other was just mean.

This points up to the problem with Buffy in the episode--she's gone back to black and white thinking; hence the black and white clothing. Relying on force to get things done. I think this, and her heart "malfunction" are a direct reaction to last week's episode, and her inability to save Cassie. Buffy tried everything she could think of to help Cassie, and none of it worked. I think this has brought up some unresolved feelings about Joyce, who Buffy also couldn't help.

Buffy needs to feel in control, and it's understandable in her position. But her reaction to last week's lack of control is to shut down, withdraw into the "I'm the slayer and I walk alone" mode. She makes a very hard decision about Anya, yes, but it's the wrong one because it's not tempered by any mercy, or even by the thought that maybe, just maybe, someone else will help her deal with this. She gives Xander and Willow no opportunity to help, no credit for having any moral judgement or ideas of their own. She just gets her sword and goes for it.

I think the statement about Angel shows how far she's regressed, or perhaps just never come. As someone else pointed out on this board, it's a dismal view to think that her love for Angel was the pinnacle of what she can achieve in the area of love. Their's was a difficult, painful relationship. Mostly nobody's fault, but hardly something to hold up as a shining example.

I think Buffy is in trouble in this episode, trying to once again isolate herself and bear all the burdens of slayerhood alone. Fortunately, Xander actually calls her on it, and Willow acts in a way that eventually saves Anya. In the end Anya is alive and no longer a threat, and the frat boys are restored to life. A result that Buffy's sword, sadly, could not have achieved.

[> [> Buffy's take on relationships -- celticross, 09:49:42 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy seems to hold to the fallacy that unless there's great drama in a relationship, the feelings aren't really very deep. This is something I've seen in others my age (early 20's) and I have to wonder where that idea comes from.

[> [> [> The need for great drama in relationships... -- Dariel, 11:14:13 10/23/02 Wed

...comes from the early childhood fantasy of "reuniting" with a parental figure. If you had a tumultous early relationship with a parent (or a relationship with a tumultous parent!), you end up with a lot of unfulfilled needs and wishes. The relationship itself becomes part of your character, a sort of inner template for how you act, and how you view yourself and the world.

The more painful the relationship, the more your psyche clings to it, and the more you try to "resolve" it in real life. You seek out partners with traits similar to the parent, relationships that are a replay of the original one. These kinds of relationships can be very painful, since they tend to recreate the early, problematic ones. However, they also invoke the highest highs, because at their heart (!) is the secret wish that this time, things will work out, this time, the "parent" will love you completely and meet all of your needs. That you will then have a perfect love.

Part of growing up is realizing that you cannot remake or fix that initial relationship. That you must face the pain and lonelyness that it's caused you, and move onto something new. And, that there is no such thing as perfect love.

And that's my version of All things Psychological on BtVS!

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's take on relationships -- Wynn, 11:26:33 10/23/02 Wed

Hey all. I used to post here a little last season, but I'm mostly a lurker. I was intrigued by the posts concerning Buffy's view on relationships. celticross, your statements about Buffy believing that only great drama leads to deep love are supported by Something Blue. She says to Willow:

"Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts but part of me believes that real love and passion go hand-in-hand with pain and fighting."

But then in Seeing Red, Spike confronts her with this view, and she refutes it.

Spike: "Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. Great love is wild and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes."
Buffy: "Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last."

Then in Selfless, she states how she'll never love like she did with Angel again. She'll never love in a deep, passionate, intense way that burns and consumes.

My thoughts are all jumbled, so I apologize if no point is actually gleaned from the post. The SR conversation popped into my head while reading the posts, so I decided to throw it into the mix. Does anyone else have any more coherent thoughts about this than I do? :)

Wynn

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's take on relationships -- celticross, 11:42:47 10/23/02 Wed

"Then in Selfless, she states how she'll never love like she did with Angel again. She'll never love in a deep, passionate, intense way that burns and consumes"

I think it's best that she doesn't. I was all about Buffy and Angel back in the day, but looking back on it now, I don't think it was particularly healthy for either of them. Real, passionate love doesn't have to burn and consume, and I'd like to see Buffy realize that. But last night illustrated very clearly that part of Buffy is trapped in the moment she killed Angel, still standing there with the sword in his chest. She's never forgiven herself.

[> [> Taking a road straight to Disagreement Village -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:32:08 10/23/02 Wed

Um, did you miss the scene where Buffy asks if Xander or Willow have any better ideas on what to do with Anya? She was asking them, and neither said anything (I wonder why Willow didn't mention the D'Hoffryn locator spell. Any ideas?)

Now, here's something that irks me. People keep complaining that Buffy is being very black and white in this episode, and I have one thing to say: so? While good demons are in abundance on "Angel", they are either rare or non-existent on BtVS. The only "good" demons I can recall from BtVS are Whistler, the book-dealing demon from Enemies, and Clem. And I'm not sure if you could really count the second two as good, more cowardly and grossed out by violence. Then there's Whistler who, frankly, is very difficult to understand (even he admits it), and, while he represents the Powers That Be, we must remember that they're also the Powers That Screw You. That is the sum and score of good demons on BtVS, excluding Anya. Given how rarely demons are good, and how ambigous they are when they are good, Buffy has good reason to be suspicous of demon Anya (especially given her personal history). Yet, still, Buffy waited. She could have gone after Anya months ago, or in Lessons if you consider the fact that nothing important happens to the Gang over the summer. Buffy could have come up to Anya one day and slice off her head on the general principle that, as a vengeance demon, she would inevitable kill peopl. Instead, Buffy gave Anya the benefit of the doubt. Buffy TRUSTED her, and Anya betrayed that trust by granting a wish that would slaughter the fraternity boys. Finally, Anya washing blood off her hands, wondering what she's done, and feeling the guilt for her murders is something Buffy never gets to see. All she gets about Anya is Willow's message (and, without Caulfield's acting to display conflictedness, "they got what they deserved" must sound all sorts of evil), and a glimpse of her and Xander, where Anya displays only anger and no guilt at all. So, Buffy's got a demon on her hands in a show where demons are almost never good, a demon who was once one of the biggest murderers in the vengeance demon world, who chose to take on this role YET AGAIN despite several years of humanity, who has just murdered thirteen people, and has shown no remorse that Buffy has been able to find. Given all this, taking the black and white route in regards to Anya seems pretty logical. Given what Buffy knew, there really didn't seem to be any gray to the situation.

[> [> [> Re: Taking a road straight to Disagreement Village -- Dariel, 20:14:03 10/23/02 Wed

Um, did you miss the scene where Buffy asks if Xander or Willow have any better ideas on what to do with Anya? She was asking them, and neither said anything (I wonder why Willow didn't mention the D'Hoffryn locator spell. Any ideas?)

Um, since I promised to be nice, and was, maybe you could return the favor? No, I didn't miss that scene. I just don't think Buffy gave enough thought to ways to avoiding killing Anya. Anya who Xander loves. Anya who was Buffy's friend. Anya who helped save the world a time or two. Anya who might be useful to have around when facing the next apocalypse.

A number of people on this board have said they thought that Buffy was off, that she was too hard, lacking in heart, etc. Most of them, including me, were not "complaining" or bashing Buffy, but making an observation about her behavior. And trying to figure out what it might mean. (See Shadowcat's post and the thread it generated if you're interested.)

There was clearly a middle way here, somewhere between Xander, who would spare Anya simply because of what she means to him, and Buffy, who would ignore Anya's place in her life for the sake of "the law." To me, the most telling point of all is what we end up with: Anya, human and alive, and those frat boys, their lives restored.

[> [> [> [> Re: Taking a road straight to Disagreement Village -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:45:51 10/23/02 Wed

I thought I was. I considered it might be possible you actually had missed that line; same sort of thing has happened to me before. Sorry if it came off wrong.

Well, you can't really say Buffy was discounting Willow's solution to the problem since Willow never brought it up. As I pointed out in my first post, from what Buffy knew, there wasn't really much reason to think Anya would voluntarily give up being a vengeance demon. Though, if Willow had brought up her D'Hoffryn summoning idea, I think Buffy may have gone along with it, though, if it failed, she'd probably go to kill Anya the same day. And, to all posters saying Buffy took "all of 9 seconds" to reach her decision, I call up the line where Buffy said she's been considering what she might have to do with Anya for a while, probably thinking through a dozen different scenarios in her mind. She probably reached her decision about what to do about Anya in case of a violent wish long before Anya granted the spider/heart wish. Given she had no way of knowing about guilt-ridden Anya, or even sympathetic Anya, and wasn't provided with a viable alternative until she already tried to kill Anya, her actions seem perfectly reasonable to me.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Taking a road straight to Disagreement Village -- Caela, 12:38:40 10/24/02 Thu

"to all posters saying Buffy took "all of 9 seconds" to reach her decision, I call up the line where Buffy said she's been considering what she might have to do with Anya for a while, probably thinking through a dozen different scenarios in her mind. She probably reached her decision about what to do about Anya in case of a violent wish long before Anya granted the spider/heart wish."

My only real problem with the scenario is that while Buffy likely did think it over, she refused to discuss it with her friends. This combined with the "I am the law" and "the slayer always stands alone" just comes across as too authoritarian. Has Buffy ever made major decisions like this on her own before this? Isn't the usual pattern to discuss it first? I don't know, it just seems like it's always a bad idea for Buffy to shut out her friends like this.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Taking a road straight to Disagreement Village -- Dariel, 19:53:20 10/24/02 Thu

My point was that Buffy gave her friends "all of nine seconds" to come up with their alternatives. Then she picked up the sword. She didn't given them any real chance to come up with a plan.

Buffy may have been thinking about what to do with Anya for awhile, but she kept it to herself. Didn't tell Willow, express her concerns to Xander, or try to find out what was really going on with Anya.

Buffy may be the Chosen One, but I don't buy the idea that she's the law. She could have consulted her friends before things got crazy. Instead, she chose the "I'm alone and I have to make all of the hard decisions" mode. Which is not only a bad way to think, it also contributes to a great deal of her unhappyness.

[> First impressions of "Selfless" (spoilers of course) -- fresne, 11:51:31 10/23/02 Wed

Rambling first impressions and a fair amount of post-episode afterglow.

Aud to Anyanka to Anya to this new soft shelled creature, not Mrs., but not unloved.

At each shift in Anya's (well, I have to pick one name), she's stripped away what came before. When she went from Aud to Anyanka, the villagers who never liked her and the lover who betrayed her remained behind. She accepted the name D'Hoffran gave her.

When Anyanka shifted to Anya, D'Hoffran called her careless and Hallie never visited. I get the impression that OaFA was the first time that they had seen each other since Anya became human again.

So, Anya acquired new friends. A lover. Okay, her lover's friends, who never quite enfold her. But there's Tara who is a bit on the outside looking in as well, so it's okay. A lame ass fake name, our little girl born on the 4th of July. Capitalism and a shop and ever changing hair color.

How fragile things on the outside are. Her lover leaves her at the altar. Her friends aren't so much hers. The shop is just a place filled with things. Things that break.

The question isn't why does Anya stay during the fight, but why does Anya stay in Sunnydale? She has the whole world and a few demon dimensions to pick and choose between. She tries to be vengeful, but that dress no longer fits. The lacings constrain her breath. Squeeze her heart. She waits for months and then she gets her intervention.

If this is an intervention, shouldn't all my friends be here?

Hallie - They are.

Then bitterness in her voice when Willow then Xander and then Buffy at long last come to intervene.

Is this an intervention?

Too late, she's already had one. She's been waiting in Sunnydale for months. Turning men French. Going soft. D'Hoffran is talking. Anya's not turning vengeance tricks like she ought.

So, she wrecks the chaos. Summons a demon fit to rip out men's hearts. Tells herself that they deserved it, because if they didn't, then what has she a thousand years done.

Have we ever seen an example where a vengeance demon's curse went well for the wisher? The Decembrist revolution, the Wishverse, OaFA, lovers turned French, turned to Tremorish Worms, I didn't mean it. I take it back. Bloodied boys on the floor. Truly heartless now. That spider left to roam Sunnydale causing collateral heartache.

All these years, Anya told those funny stories about evisceration, okay icky stories about evisceration, and no one really took it seriously. Anya was the comic relief. Oh, look funny Anya. She speaks funny and is strangely literal. Selfless was the reality.

Washing hands, but the blood won't come off.

I think Anya stayed in town because she wanted that sword through the heart. She wanted that intervention. Whether Buffy or D'Hoffran killed her was irrelevant.

Ah, and Buffy. Okay, so she's all set to kill Anya, which is why she stabs her in the heart. Which is why she prepares to stab her in the heart again. Ummm...it didn't work the first time. Why not decapitation? It seems to works on just about anything. At a guess, she doesn't, because Buffy might actually kill Anya. Oh, not that Buffy wasn't prepared to kill Anya, just that there was a certain element of good cop (Xander), bad cop (Buffy) going on.

Yes, and Buffy. Okay, when the episode was over, one of my first comments was that clearly the writer has a fanboy/girl locked in a small trunk by his desk kept as for all Buffaloneous factoids. Anya's full fake name. Olaf the Troll. D'Hoffran's charm. Xander's lie. Items mentioned that not only reference the past, but help to clarify it.

Until Buffy mentioned it, I always saw Xander's S2 "Go kick his ass." lie as, well, bad in a lie sort of way. I just couldn't quite see how Buffy could have done anything different. So, I didn't care much.

Now that moment, so long ago, came into clarification. The burden wasn't that Xander lied and Buffy could have done something different, well maybe it is, but that's not where I'm going. The burden that Buffy carries is that when she was at her lowest moment (rejected by her mother, a sister Slayer dead, wanted for the murder of that not-quite sister, her father figure in danger at the hands of her lover, the world in danger), instead of telling her their plans, her friends were cheerleaders. She believed all these years that Willow said, "Kick his ass," and then worked on a spell to restore Angel's soul. Saying one thing and doing another. Her best friend who made what was hard become infinitely harder.

I watched Buffy drive a sword through Angel's heart (thanks FX) Monday. Watched Buffy tell Giles the truth of what happened on Tuesday at 7:55 and then watched Buffy at 8:00. No wonder she was so fierce in protecting Dawn in the Gift. These people, these friends, cheer Buffy to kill those that she loves.

Huh, I never knew. I've watching this show for years. Since the beginning and yet, in an episode, in a moment, it seems there was so much left to understand.

Watching this episode was like watching a very funny sad boil being lanced. Watching festering feelings come out. Like watching real people, because that's how life is. You say things and years later it was still said. Not necessarily forgotten.

The body language in that scene. Willow seated. Xander, almost full length body shot, distanced from Buffy. Buffy forming the third of their triangle. No slouching. No pacing. Just firm distance.

I wasn't chilled by Buffy's, "I am the law." I was saddened, because she is. Her friends, her family, the world asks her to be and she's no longer struggling. She didn't need more weapons to kill that spider. A tossed axe and it was done. She caught that arrow in mid-flight. She had to be the one to suspect Willow of flaying that man. Willow told her it was okay. Xander had the luxury of belief. Buffy had to think about, prepare herself, for killing a demon that told them for years just what vengeance means.

For the first time, talking to Xander about Angel, about Spike, I saw a Buffy who understands what a vengeance demon is. Who takes them seriously. Who let Xander rag on her for years about her lovers, her emotional choices and yet all the time understood the precariousness of his righteousness. Who never said a thing.

The same Buffy that sent Xander on ahead to talk to Anya. Sent her heart on ahead, because good cop, bad cop only works if you have someone to play good cop. Someone to tackle you when you're about to kill a friend, acquaintance, demon, person, threat, sacrifice. Buffy was ready to kill Anya. Buffy sent Xander after Anya when it was all done.

My God, my mind is all a tumble.

Dawn, the child, says you need to be like everyone else. Anya, the woman, at last understands that that cannot be so.

Who is Spike? William, Spike, mad Fool for love basement bound. Does he have any place to go?

Who is Willow? Eager to be the student again, but the dark eyes linger.

Who is Anya? She doesn't know.

As, so often on BtVS, names change, but the person remains. Aud, Anyanka, Anya.
That girl, that woman, with the changeable hair has to discover her essential self for herself.

Go girl. And okay, go Xander for speaking and then stepping back when she needed it.

And here, I cannot quite stop. After seeing the kind of acts that D'Hoffran is capable of doing, he's not quite so cheery. Not so hail fellow and well met. In a matter of minutes, he went from a long running background character to someone truly evil. Bravo.

From Beneath You it Devours. I chill with anticipation. Damn reruns.

[> [> Excellent thoughts! -- HonorH, 12:30:02 10/23/02 Wed

I wasn't chilled by Buffy's "I am the law" either, because in so many ways, she is--she has to make those decisions because as the Slayer, the world rests on her shoulders. It's always different, and ultimately, Buffy is the one who has to decide what needs to be done. Sometimes she's right, sometimes she's wrong, and that's her burden. For all her friends' love, they cannot take that from her.

[> [> Lovely, fresne! -- ponygirl, 13:37:00 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> Great post, fresne -- Artemis, 20:37:38 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> Lovely as always, fresne! -- Dyna, 12:29:37 10/24/02 Thu

[> Excellent post , HH -- Artemis, 21:08:58 10/23/02 Wed

Totally agree with everything you said. And like you, as soon as this episode was over, actually before it was over, I knew this was my favorite episode so far this season .

Not only did it fulfill all of the dramatic elements I look for in an episode but it had the kind of 'off the cuff' humor of some of the best episodes of Buffy past.

One of my favorite humourous lines, in this episode came during one of my favorite dramatic moments. How cool is that! It's when Buffy is talking about killing Angel, and Willow responds "And that turned out well."

Making me cry for Buffy and laugh at Willow
All within the same moment shows just how brilliant this show is.

It's interesting that Season One was about a young girl who just wants to be a "Normal" girl and Deny her Power. While Season Seven is about a Powerful woman who is trying to Deny the part of herself that is a "Normal" girl. There is room for both. I do think this season is about melding. I feel as much for Season 1 Buffy as for Season 7. And I love them both.

This episode also shows the two sides of Willow that will have to meld.

Again, Great post. I alway love to read what you have to say.

Buffy's "heartlessness" and Egyptian mythology -- webdeb, 23:39:43 10/22/02 Tue

Hi! I'm a lurker newbie...but I wanted to post something and see what people thought. :)

People have been saying that Buffy has done or said some "heartless" things the last few episodes.

There are also lots of anvils dropping about people losing their hearts...maybe Buffy actually, physically, has lost the "heart" part of herself, represented by the White!Buffy, possibly when she was resurrected?

Egyptian anvils are also dropping in different episodes also....the Egyptians believed in nine parts of the soul. Each could be separated. One is:

Ab - The heart, this was the source of good and evil within a person, the moral awareness and centre of thought that could leave the body at will, and live with the gods after death.

I also remember the quote Angel said to Buffy about her heart:

Angel: I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and... and I loved you.
Buffy: Why?
Angel: 'Cause I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own.

Just a thought. :)

Deb

[> Re: Buffy's "heartlessness" and Egyptian mythology -- Deb, 04:39:55 10/23/02 Wed

This is interesting, really. I just want to make it clear though that this is not Deb, who joined a few days ago. I've seen very few eps before season 4, and I can never quote dialogue word for word. I paraphrase.

But, this is cool stuff.

Was Buffy right in regards to Anyanka? (7.5 "Selfless") -- Earl Allison, 04:39:20 10/23/02 Wed

Both Xander and Buffy made good points in regards to Anyanka, Spike, and Angel(us). All points were valid, albeit a bit nasty (like Xander's jab at Buffy about Spike), but was Buffy right to go off and try to kill Anyanka?

I ask because I see five (maybe more) instances of this throughout the series, and it looks like Anyanka MIGHT be the odd-girl out here.

Angelus. Buffy takes a long time to get up to speed to kill Angelus, before her heart is really in it. What finally spurs her to definitive action is the death of Jenny Calendar and the near-death of Rupert Giles. Before then, we know (as does Buffy) that Angelus has killed others, but that isn't quite enough to fully sway Buffy's heart. I grant you, it's a very personal thing for Buffy (which might mitigate things slightly), since in her own mind this is all her own fault, but I do think it starts an unpleasant pattern. Oddly enough, once Angel returns with a soul, things are no longer an issue for Buffy.

Faith. Once the Dark Slayer has turned down the road to being a traitor, we see absolutely nothing to indicate that Buffy and the others are even LOOKING for her. As above, it takes a (near) death in her Inner Circle to spur her to action; Angel takes a poisoned arrow that, in a bitter irony, can be cured with Slayer blood. That knowledge in hand, Buffy tasks Willow and Oz with finding Faith's location so she can do what needs to be done. Now, before this, the gang figured that Faith was behind the death of the old Professor, and yet there was (IIRC, please let me know if I am wrong) NO talk of finding her -- which was obviously an easy task given how quickly Willow and Oz found her. Was the Professor's life unimportant? Was Faith "out of sight, out of mind" until it affected Buffy directly?

Spike. Buffy always tried to kill Spike until S4, when he became chipped, and therefore "helpless." However, Spike proved able to hurt them indirectly, and willing to kill HAD he been able several times. Turning the gang aginst each other in S4, feeding on Dru's kill in "Crush" and threatening to let Dru kill Buffy, harboring dangerous demon eggs in "As You Were" (which I know most people don't like, but the evidence has yet to be countered by canon), and his willingness to kill when he thought the chip might be broken in S6 all showed that Spike was still very much dangerous. However, Buffy never TRULY advocated killing him, despite some threats mostly in S4. Why? Was it the lack of bodies? Or was it that he didn't actually kill anyone close to the Slayer?

Dark Willow. She slices, she dices, she skins Warren Meers in seconds. I never got the indication that Buffy was even considering killing Willow. Of course, the massive disparity in their power levels might have had something to do with that. But, as with Spike, simply rendering her incapable of doing harm (a la Giles and the coven) seemed to satisfy Buffy's concerns.

Anyanka. Once Buffy learns about the dead frat boys, she decides that Anyanka HAS to die. Aside from the real concern of not simply smashing her amulet (we know D'Hoffryn won't simply give her another, he didn't before), why does Buffy do this? If Willow hadn't told her about this, and that Anyanka was involved, she would have still been willing to ignore the fact that a former acquaintance (they were never friends, despite dialogue) was a Vengeance Demon again (she had ignored it for seven months aside from Ronnie the worm). One might make the case that Buffy's choice of weapon was an attempt to hold back, since she HAD to know that a sword wouldn't kill Anyanka, but her nasty "I'm just getting started" comment would seem to nullify that. It seemed that Buffy's concern wasn't that Anyanka had crossed a line, but that she needed to be stopped before she killed again (like Dark Willow) -- which again begs the question -- why not smash her amulet? A "toothless" Spike, unrepentant or not, was acceptable, why not an amuletless Anya?

I guess the pattern I'm asking about is that those within Buffy's Inner Circle, those she's closest to, are the most important to her. This is the case for everyone, but it seems that, especially in the cases of Faith, Dark Willow and Angelus, that someone very close to her needed to be threatened to spur her to action, and that the faceless dead weren't as much of an incentive.

It's especially obvious with Dark Willow -- although her being the closest and having sympathetic motives (Warren killed her girlfriend) might change things somewhat. Buffy tries to stop her, but as far as I can recall, NEVER considers the possibility of killing her, despite Dark Willow being beyond human laws, as Anyanka allegedly was last night.

I realize there are infinite permutations, and I'm not advocating a set-in-stone rule for her, but it seems like she didn't really consider that Angelus was a threat until someone close died, that Faith was sought out not for what she did per se, but for WHO she did it to (personally hurting Buffy's boyfriend, as opposed to someone Buffy didn't know), and that those lessons were lost somewhere.

I could accept that Buffy learned from the past (Angelus and Faith), and made her choice (as much as it might have pained her) to put Anyanka down except for her actions in regards to Spike, who also proved himself a threat repeatedly (even before the two were intimate in S6). Buffy turned a blind eye to Spike despite his threat (especially S4 and early S5), but ignores the possibility of neutering Anyanka and goes for the kill.

It just struck me as very jarring for Buffy to decide to kill Anyanka considering the other options open to her.

I know there are other examples (Vamp Harmony comes screaming to mind, only a threat when she attacked Dawn, otherwise ignored), but these seemed to be the biggest and most prevalent.

Am I totally misreading things? Am I an idiot? Or do I have the barest kernel of an issue (because I know it isn't being expressed very well, I can't find the words)?

Note: This is NOT a Buffy-bashfest. I don't want it to become one, or I'll beseech HonorH/Horrificus to smite the offender(s) :)

I'm not writing the above to imply that Buffy is mean or shallow, but that there does seem to be a pattern to when Buffy gets/got fully involved. I'm just wondering if there are different standards depending on who is killed, and by whom.

Let the stoning and pummeling begin.

Take it and run.

[> In Regards to Faith -- Majin Gojira, 04:57:58 10/23/02 Wed

I just find it ironic that they pretty much ignored her when she was evil until she attacked their inner circle...considering that being ignored was one fo the factors that drove her to the dark side in the first place...apparently, not even going evil changed tht very much.

[> Re: Was Buffy right in regards to Anyanka? (7.5 "Selfless") -- Deb, 05:11:48 10/23/02 Wed

You make good points. The show was emotionally and rationally "weird." At one point, about half-way through I began wondering if what we are seeing are "really" (Ah, what a concept!) Buffy's schizoid illusions from the mental ward. The show was set-up with a dream sequence and openings usually set the tone of the story. (I bought into the dream sequence until I realized that nothing had changed between Buffy and Spike since the last time we saw them. Ah, but it was a good dream to dream if you must spend your days dreaming about something dreamingly pleasant, and the Pre-Cog girl from last week did plant the seed of the dream into Spike, unless, of course, that was a dream too. (Another point about my posts: I don't remember names of eps. and many minor players either because I don't take the time to make the associations that I need to remember. Clear as mud again? If I had READ it, I could visualize the page and remember.)

[> Re: Was Buffy right in regards to Anyanka? (7.5 "Selfless") -- Miss Edith, 06:39:51 10/23/02 Wed

Regarding Angelus Buffy recognised that she was in the wrong there. She couldn't kill him because she was an emotional young girl at the time but I'm sure she was well aware of all the toddlers Angelus was gruesomly killing with Dru "I need a real vile kill" etc. I have no doubt Angelus was happy to make Buffy aware of his crimes. Buffy apologises to Giles for not killing Angelus when she had the chance after Jenny's death. In Revelations Xander directly blames Buffy for Angelus's killing spree. "You'd stop him? Like you did last time with Miss Calender". Buffy was in the wrong but she did acknowledge that and she really only needed time to adjust her view of Angel. In Innocence she let Angel go but following the episode Passion she was willing to stake him. "I know now that nothing will turn him back to the man I fell in love with".

Buffy could not kill humans therefore Faith was off-limits in her mind. And getting the authorities involved may have been an option if Faith wasn't involved with the mayor suugesting a lot of people in higher places were corrupt. Also Faith being a slayer was street smart and would know how to survive and avoid the police. In FivebyFive she breaks a policemans jaw after starting a brawl in a nightclub so she wouldn't be easy to arrest if the cops were involved. What was Buffy meant to do? Faith even comments that Buffy isn't ready to kill her in the episode Enemies, and this is after Faith had Buffy chained up with plans to torture her. Taking a human life is a very big deal to Buffy and the line she must not cross. Hence Xander worrying she would not come back from killing Faith when she plans to do so. It is interesting that Buffy was able to overcome her inner doubts to protect her boyfriend I agree.

I would say that Spike wasn't staked simply because ME wanted him around and therefore presented him as helpless and dishonourable for Buffy to kill. He actually brought up him helping Adam in The Yoko Factor justifying not killing him because he later helped the scoobies fight the evil. I don't think it was a case of Buffy being unwilling to stake Spike. In Wrecked she threatens to stake him if he tells of their night together. She just didn't take him seriously enough as a threat. In Smashed she looks genuinely frightened when she thinks Spike has lost his chip because she realises she will have to stake him if he is capable of harming humans. As for the eggs fiasco Buffy shrugged that off as "just Spike". She was depressed at the time so not at her most proactive. Plus their sexual relationship complicated matters and she acknowledges to Xander and Riley that it would feel weird to stake him after she had sex with him. Buffy saw the chip as protecting humanity from Spike. He did reject Dru and her offer to kill humans for him and I don't believe Buffy was aware that he tried to kill a girl in Smashed when he thought the chip wasn't working. I bascially think Buffy became a bit caveliar about his lesh and if he did lose the chip she would have staked him. JMO.

Well Dark Willow was a scoobie and therefore entitled to special consideration. Look at season 7. She is sharing a house with Dawn, Buffy's little sister, and a person that she tried to kill. It has been suggested in Selfless that Willow is still a tad unbalanced and black magic is still withen her.
As for Anyanka did Buffy know about smashing the amulet? I agree Buffy has become a lot more black and white than I am comfortable with and I do feel Buffy should have explored other options. Anya did help the scoobies in Grave and in STSP. Xander has even talked her into undoing a wish so Buffy must have realised that Anya was capable of redemption. But it came down to this. "Willow was human. Anya is a demon". Buffy is trying to get rid of grey areas and see all demons as expendiable if they commit evil acts. Buffy told Willow "You're attacking the people who love you now? You need help" after Willow threatened Dawn's life. Buffy tries to convince Willow that the world is worth living in. Willow was saved by Xander telling her he loved he loved her and knows she is a good person. Giles takes her in England to help her. Yet all of this is lacking in Anya's case. I really do think there is evidence of a double standard with the scoobies. Faith is currently in jail for her crimes, and Willow gets to return to the gang and try to pick up her life.

Just my perspective on the individual cases you mention.

[> Re: Was Buffy right in regards to Anyanka? (7.5 "Selfless") -- Cecilia, 07:17:13 10/23/02 Wed

I have some thoughts.

First Angel. Yes, Buffy was very young. Yes, it was extremely personal. Yes, she did feel responsible to Angel for allowing/causing Angelus to return. But the main reason, as I see it, that she did not purposfully and willingly go find Angel and stake him was because she never did that type of thing ever before (and possibly since). Hopefully I will be able to convey my thoughts on this coherently because in my mind it makes sense.

When has Buffy (especially early seasons Buffy) ever taken the fight to the opponent? She went to face the Master because she had to, she had no choice. She honestly believed that if she didn't he would rise and the world would end. Every other "bad guy" was dispatched after careful consideration, planning and after all other courses of action had been considered and discarded. I'm reminded of "Buffy Meets Dracula" (I think that is the name of the episode), where Dracula implies that she is "hunting" vampires. She is stunned and very much afraid when she realizes that that is exactly what she has been doing. In fact, I don't think that stunning realization and it's consequences have ever really left her mind. Vampires hunt. Slayers kill. To hunt down a prey, regardless of the motives behind it, is somehow animalistic. It is Id, deep, basic, instinct. Something I think Buffy has always been afraid of. She began to touch upon this right before her death in The Gift. Unfortunately her death prevented her from really investigating this within herself.

She was "presented" as fractured in the scene with Spike. Regardless if it was simply a hallucination of Spikes or if it was a manifestation of the BB, it is still symbolic of something she never had the time to deal with. She only touched on it.

Think of how Angel has been presented/referred to:A Warrior. Buffy is not a Warrior. At least she doesn't see herself that way. A warrior does good deed/fights evil/protects the innocent for a reason. Doesn't matter what the reason is (could be for reward or for the act of doing good itself, whatever). Buffy doesn't look for reward. In fact I don't think she even particularly thinks she is deserving of any reward. She has said it many times, she does what she has to.
Her vision in the desert told her she was full of love. I don't think she even now realizes that, not truly. Take what she did to Angel in another light. Would Angel, the man she grew to love, who devoted himself to fighting the good fight, would he have wanted Angelus to carry on in his body? If he had been in Buffy's place, would he have chosen to stop/kill Angelus for Angel? She was unable/unwilling to see things from that point of view. Perhaps because of her youth and inexperience. Perhaps because of the fact that she still doesn't realize that in order to do what she does, she must do it with love.

I remember also a scene (on AtS)between Angel and Wesley where Wesley admits that he is ready, willing and able to kill Angelus (and thereby Angel) should Angelus ever emerge. Would he do this callously? I don't think so. He would have done so for his love for and respect of his friend Angel. I think Buffy going after Anya/Anyanka was actually for the same reason, but she is unable to articulate this to herself, let alone anyone else. This is why she seems so cold and unfeeling. She is still unable to merge these seemingly disparate side of her. I think once she is able to do so her role in the world will not necessarily get easier but maybe won't be so hard.

Again, I'm not sure if this makes a lot of sense. Like I said it seems so clear in my head but sometimes I have difficulty translating my thoughts into words and sentences (at least coherent ones).

[> [> Very, very nice!! -- Rahael, 07:21:15 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> [> Thank you! -- Cecilia, 08:10:39 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> Much sense was made. Wonderful insight and great post! -- Caroline, 10:36:02 10/23/02 Wed

[> Re: Was Buffy right in regards to Anyanka? (7.5 "Selfless") -- Rob, 07:21:52 10/23/02 Wed

I think Buffy answered it best herself. She said that the difference was that Willow was still a human. Anya is a human who DECIDED to become a DEMON, the thing that Buffy has been trained to kill. Buffy still sees demons in black and white for the most part, although she can see the gray areas in humans, and I think that she can't excuse the fact that Anya chose to go back to being a demon, after having been human for so long.

Also, perhaps there was a bit of resentment of Xander there. Remember, the only other character who "went evil" from your list who was demon, and not human-gone-bad, was Angel. Angel, the one whom Xander insisted Buffy should never be able to forgive, even after regaining his soul, because he was a demon. Angel, whom Xander convinced Buffy to kill, even though he knew there was a chance to save him. There has always been an underlying hypocrisy in the fact that Xander, who is arguably the most anti-demon character on the show, had been dating an ex-demon. And now he still loves Anya and wants her back, even after she has become a demon again, while at the same time chastising Buffy for sleeping with Spike. So, yes, I think that Buffy is holding Anya up to the same standards that Xander held Angel.

Rob

[> [> Was Buffy right? Of course not. -- alcibiades, 07:59:41 10/23/02 Wed

But unlike Angelus--whom Buffy knew did not want his soul back--Xander was quite accurately discussing Anya's emotional state. Anya -- unlike Angelus -- was at a breaking point with her demon status. As Anya told Willow, she now found it quite upsetting to inflict. So there was plenty of hope that Anya could be brought back from this abyss whereas there was no hope for Angelus -- except the externality of the spell.

Nevertheless, Buffy is unwilling to even think of an alternate approach to dealing with Anya -- whose bridesmaid she once was. And she pretends to give Xander the opportunity to do something -- while following behind him and giving him no chance, no time.

So, if Buffy is frozen into the moment she had to kill Angel and frozen into her intense resentment of Xander for cheering her on, should Anya be the one to pay for the constricting of Buffy's heart?

Because Anya was at a breaking point where she was willing to give her life to take the vengeance back and Buffy would have killed her without ever realizing that and that is just sad, for Buffy and Anya both.

Especially since it was absolutely clear to both Xander and Willow. And Willow wasn't looking at Anya with the eyes of love, but with friendship and empathy.

[> [> [> Re: Was Buffy right? Of course not. -- Apophis, 11:03:22 10/23/02 Wed

Nobody knew Anya was "at a breaking point with her demon
status" because, whenever they interacted with her, she put up a front (except with Willow). She appeared to enjoy her new status. Buffy's not omniscient.
P.S.- Of course Buffy wasn't right. She's heartless and incapable of anything resembling human decency. Those poor, poor demons...

[> [> [> [> Re: Was Buffy right? Of course not. -- Robert, 12:18:04 10/23/02 Wed

>>> " P.S.- Of course Buffy wasn't right. She's heartless and incapable of anything resembling human decency. Those poor, poor demons..."

Even worse, Buffy slaughtered the nice spider demon without spending one second to consider its feelings or needs.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Was Buffy right? Of course not. -- Medusa, 12:40:10 10/23/02 Wed

I'm so glad someone brought this up. Why didn't the Scoobies sit down with the spider demon and help him actualize his potential? Sure, it just killed a dozen or so people, but deep in its heart it really was a loving spider that just needed to be steered to the right path. Instead, Willow just walked away, leaving it suffering from its cuts and, no doubt, great emotional brusing. Willow is so cold and hard. Than Buffy casually slices and dices it without even trying to give it another chance to kill. She just sneered at the spider and ran away to kill yet another of her friends. How are Buffy and the spider supposed to develop a relationship if she won't even help him?

[> [> [> [> [> [> LOL!! -- Spike Lover, 09:23:34 10/24/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Was Buffy right? Of course not. -- Tamara, 21:17:30 10/23/02 Wed

Anya agreed to undo a spell in Beneath You when Xander talked to her. And Willow saw Anya looking shifty and trying to get the blood of her hands. A clear sign of feeling guilt. So Anya was capable of being reasoned with. Buffy should have at least suspected that Anya was capable of being won back. But no its all kill kill kill and I dont have any other options. Buffy didn't even try to talk Anya round. Willow got the benefit of the doubt but with Anya its different because shes a demon now. Whatever.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Was Buffy right? Of course not. -- Arethusa, 09:01:58 10/24/02 Thu

In "Beneath You," in the scene in the bar, Buffy walked up to Anya, placed a sword on the table between them, and confronted Anyanka about her actions. They are interrupted by the fight with Spike, and then the Sluggoth demon. But Buffy and Anya both knew if Anyanka killed anyone, she'd have to face the slayer. That's what Buffy does-kill demons preying on the populace. For Willow's case and Anya's case to be the same, Willow would have had to come back from England, stoke up on black magic again, and kill another person. If she did, you can bet Buffy would have tried to kill her, too. This was pointed out in STSP, when Buffy was afraid the skinned boy was Willow's work.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I don't think so -- Spike Lover, 09:30:35 10/24/02 Thu

If Willow really went dark again, I think it would be someone outside who would have to deal with it. Maybe Giles.

When Angelus went on his killing rampage, before Calendar, he killed and threatened Joyce, but Buffy was reeling. She could not do anything.

Ok, never mind.

[> [> [> How about jealousy? -- Spike Lover, 09:19:54 10/24/02 Thu

Subconsciously, of course. Anya has the love of her good friend X, has a business, and of course, she also slept w/ Buffy's boy toy.

You may think that is water under the bridge, but for many women, it would always be in the forefront.

If you really think about it, women (I think) more than men are the backstabbers in society. They will gladly take down a rival. If you look at the other women in her life, they don't offer much competition. Dawn has no life of her own, and Willow is not going to graduate on time from college after all. Also, now that Willow has danced with the dark side, I think Buffy can always feel superior to her no matter what she achieves. (Riley's new wife does not live in Sunnydale.)

[> Three reasons amulet destruction may not have been an option (spoilers) -- Steve, 09:45:08 10/23/02 Wed

"which again begs the question -- why not smash her amulet?"

One: There's no evidence that the Scoobies are aware that this is an option. The amulut destruction ploy was researched and executed by Alternate Universe!Giles. The only time it comes up again is when Anya shouts to the Scoobies to grab Halfrek's amulet when she's knocked out temporarily after sealing the Scoobies and Friends in the house. That no-one else -- especially the tactically expert Buffy -- thought to even try this until Anya said something implies that this was not something Anya had mentioned before and in all likelyhood, not since. Remember, all through the summer when Anya was active, albiet in soft-serve mode, no-one attempted an intervention by smashing the amulet.

Two: Giles' plan relied heavily on the element of surprise. Anya had no idea of who he was, or what he could do in a pinch. Anya knows exactly who and what Buffy is, and what her intent was likely to be upon turning up pissed after a massacre. As the fight showed, getting an amulet from a warmed up vengence demon *without* killing her was likely to be an impossible mission.

Three: Buffy's unwillingness to consider other avenues is probably directly related to her guilt over her hesitation in going full tilt after Angel: she had to send him to hell/kill him anyway in the end and if she'd done it earlier a whole lot more people would be alive. To quote Macbeth "If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well, It were done quickly."

[> [> Brilliant! -- Rob, 09:54:50 10/23/02 Wed

To expand on your #1 not only did Anya not probably speak of the amulet being the source of all the powers, but all she did was yell "The pendant!" (Just checked the shooting script.) She never specified exactly what it would do. The others probably assumed that it would free them from this spell, by what she said but she never specified that it would take away Halfrek's powers all together. Also, in that case, it was a pendant. Since the SG does not know about the amulet thingy (having not been in the Wishverse), they may not have connected that it could be a pendant or amulet that is the power source. And, again, they do not know that breaking the amulet will take away the demon's powers forever.

All three of your answers are brilliant, and right on my line of thinking. If someone were to ask why Anya didn't smash her own pendant if she didn't want to be a demon any longer, I would answer that it was the guilt over what she had done. She didn't think she deserved forgiveness, and that is why she was willing to give up her life to resurrect them. Had she smashed the amulet, sure she would have been human again, but the kids would still be dead.

Rob

[> [> [> Disagree with you on one point -- Slayrunt, 23:01:58 10/23/02 Wed

Rob,

In The Wish, the breaking of the amulet took us back to Cordy making the wish and Anyanka saying "granted". I must therefore assume that breaking the amulet this time would put her back and the girl talking about hearts being ripped out.

I agree about the guilt and forgiveness part, but breaking the amulet would have brought the frat boys back.

[> [> [> [> Re: Disagree with you on one point -- Steve, 09:24:41 10/24/02 Thu

But as someone else has pointed out below, reversing a wish and reversing the consequences of a wish may be two different things.

In "The Wish" in order to fulfil Cordy's wish, Anya had to change a 'hinge point' prior to Buffy's arrival in Sunnydale to affect the flow of time. Reversing the wish, restored the hinge point and the timeline, but it's important to note, not the consequences of that wish, in particular, Alternate!Giles' destruction of the amulet. If the consequences of a wish were also reversed along with the wish, Anya would have had her amulet restored too (leading to an interesting circular series of events). It's only because Cordy's wish was explicitly executed in a temporal manner that it's reversal had a temporal effect at all.

Anya's chosen implementation of the Sobbing Girl's wish was to summon a heart sucking spider demon. She indeed could have taken back the wish and banished the spider demon afterwards, but the frat boys would still be dead, dead, dead. Just as when Anya reversed the wish that turned Bad Boyfriend into a worm demon, there was no erasure of events subsequent to his transformation - the puppy stayed eaten, for example.

Erasing the consequences of their own actions is not in the power of a vengence demon: Remember, Anya couldn't make a wish on her own behalf when she wanted Xander hurt, so D'Hoffryn had to wish for her in this case (and extract his price)

[> [> Maybe, but ... -- Earl Allison, 09:58:57 10/23/02 Wed

Thanks for the reply!

Anya's insistance on getting said amulet back ("Dopplegangland") should have set alarm bells ringing, especially considering Anya's comments in S3 about "getting her power back."

Surely the gang would be smart enough to realize that her amulet WAS that power?

Also, why take the amulet by force? Anyanka was already expressing regret for her actions, actions that were made against people she didn't know or have an emotional investment in. Buffy or (more likely) Xander could have simply ASKED her to have the amulet -- to put an end to things.

Finally, Buffy surely could have taken the amulet while Anyanka was pinned to the wall by the sword, yanked said sword out, and smashed the amulet afterwards.

I just think that, with a potential solution that didn't involve killing, Buffy didn't even try to consider it.

Your points on Angelus are well taken, although like I said, they should have been considerations with Faith in S3, or with Spike when he started to act up in S4 or S5, IMHO.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> Re: Maybe, but ... -- Rob, 10:25:28 10/23/02 Wed

"Anya's insistance on getting said amulet back ("Dopplegangland") should have set alarm bells ringing, especially considering Anya's comments in S3 about 'getting her power back.'"

The flaw in your argument here is one of 20/20 hindsight. In "Doppelgangland," Anya approached Willow about doing the spell, mentioning a necklace. Anya tells her (from the shooting script):

"The necklace was a family heirloom.
Passed down for generations, then it
was stolen from my Mom's apartment."

But when the spell went wrong and later, Anya revealed herself to be an ex-demon who wanted her power back, she did not mention the necklace again. For starters, she never mentioned the word "amulet" or "pendant"; secondly, it's possible that Willow didn't connect that that was the power source--for all Willow knows, Anya could have just made up the story about the necklace so that she'd do the spell. Right after the spell was done and went wrong, this dialogue occurs:

WILLOW
That wasn't just a temporal fold,
that was some weird Hell place.
I don't think you're telling
me everything.

ANYA
I swear, I'm just trying to find
my necklace.

WILLOW
Did you try looking inside
the sofa in HELL?

ANYA
Look, we'll try again, and if --

WILLOW
I think emphatically not.

ANYA
I can't do it by myself!

WILLOW
Well, that's a relief.
I'm out of here.

So, again, Willow does not believe that that is all that Anya was up to, just getting a necklace. Later, Willow does not mention this to Buffy, what with the excitement of VampWillow being there and all the chaos it causes. Thus, still no evidence that the SG knew about the amulet as the source of Anya's powers.

Rob

ANYA
Fine. Go! Idiot child.

[> [> [> [> Oops! -- Rob, 10:30:10 10/23/02 Wed

I hope you didn't think that "Go! Idiot child!" thing was a jibe at you! Oops! Actually what happened was that was the last line of the transcript I copied, and it seems that I pasted the end of my post, including my signature before the quote was over, leading to that rather misfortunate, snarky looking ending. Sorry!

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> No problem at all :) -- Earl Allison, 11:09:38 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> [> Also -- Sophist, 14:33:09 10/23/02 Wed

in OAFA, the amulet was needed to reverse the spell imprisoning them in the house. No one other than Anya could have known that breaking it would cause Halfrek to lose her powers altogether.

[> [> [> My Opinion. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:37:51 10/23/02 Wed

First, when Buffy is explaining why she's going to kill Anya, she makes sure to bring up that she chose to become a vengeance demon twice. And she puts emphasis on the twice. My opinion is that her thinking ran "D'Hoffryn made her a demon once, and even after she became human, he made her a demon again. Even if I smash the amulet, what's to stop it from happening a third time, resulting in even more deaths?"

Second, the Scooby Gang didn't know about Anya's guilt. The news Willow brought back about Anya would had to have related what Anya said ("They got what they deserved. . .") but it's doubtful that she fully conveyed the mixture of emotions the Caulfield expressed wonderfully and subtely. And, during Xander's meeting with Anya (which Buffy probably saw most, if not all of) she showed no remorse whatsoever, only anger.

[> [> [> [> Re: My Opinion. . . -- alcibiades, 06:32:03 10/24/02 Thu

Second, the Scooby Gang didn't know about Anya's
guilt.

Here's where I disagree.

Willow did know a lot about Anya's conflict from her previous meeting with Anya in STSP. That's what made her pursue the issue with Anya in Selfless -- because Willow has an internal understanding of how being confronted in the act makes you defensive even if you are feeling not at all happy with what you did.

Xander also knows Anya well enough from their relationships to sense from his conversations with her in BY and STSP that Anya has ambivalence about what she is doing -- otherwise why help them with Willow and why reverse the spell -- if she hadnt been feeling deeply ambivalent she wouldn't have.

Buffy was out of the loop and unwilling to believe that Anya might change -- because she is in her white and black phase illustrated by the clothes she is wearing lately -- white to save Cassie, black to hunt Anya. White in the vision Buffy -- which may be an alternate time Buffy or may be morphed Buffy.

And it is also very shocking, if you think about it, that Willow felt she had to pursue her agenda to help save Anya on her own, without confiding it to Buffy. Perhaps she didn't trust Buffy to let her do anything about it if she told her. She had to work behind Buffy's back.

[> One thing that seemed majorly wrong... (7.5 "Selfless") -- Darby, 10:01:09 10/23/02 Wed

Am I the only one who saw Anya stabbed in the promo and thought, "But we know that can't kill her"? We and Buffy had been shown that clearly in Older and Far Away.

Buffy had seen Halfrek momentarily stopped with a run-through, during which Anya and Buffy tried to get her amulet (but there was a long beat of time between, and the attempt failed).

One of Buffy's strengths, something that has kept her alive, is her tactical ability. She's a thinking fighter, and we know from her dialogue that she had been thinking about the potential Anyanka problem.

Even if Buffy couldn't be sure what effect taking Anya's amulet would have, why wouldn't she do it as soon as Anya was pinned to the wall? It was a bit too convenient, and for all of the nudge-nudge references to earlier Buffology, it seems a strange gap.

And why does Anya appear to still have her amulet on after D'Hoffryn's departure? Is she still a vengeance demon? The wish-reversal may not have affected her powers, since Hally was the victim.

[> [> Maybe... -- Masq, 11:28:26 10/23/02 Wed

Buffy never intended to kill her. Maybe she hoped to put the fear of God, so to speak, into her demon friend. Make her rethink what she was doing.

[> [> [> Re: Maybe... -- CW, 12:07:02 10/23/02 Wed

I kind of got that feeling, too, during the fight. Buffy might have known that the amulet was the key to killing Anya, but perhaps she was more interested hurting her to make her feel what she was doing to others. Anya seemed all too quick to choose the path to death in the fight. Then after the fight, the talk with d'Hoffryn amounted to the same thing. Anya was willing to choose death, but d'Hoffryn chose to give her pain instead, a much harder way out in the end.

[> [> [> [> Plus she knew Anya was re-demonized once. Maybe she thought it would just happen again. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:30:58 10/23/02 Wed

[> [> I thought that, too. -- Deeva, 11:29:44 10/23/02 Wed

I immediately thought of Hallie in OaFA. "Well, that won't kill her." as soon as it went to commercial. It was a strange gap.

As for the amulet, perhaps the power behind it has been removed and now it is just a bauble. Strange as it may seem, D'Hoffryn comes off as a demon who means what he says. I completely thought that Anya was going to be the one sacrificed when he mentioned that her wish required the sacrifice of a vengence demon. I think that she is now human.

[> [> [> I never thought... (7.5 spoilers) -- Rob, 21:39:37 10/23/02 Wed

...that Buffy did think that that stab to the chest would kill Anya. She did it, like when she attacked Glory first with the Buffybot, to weaken her, perhaps throw her off her game. Anya says killing a VD is very hard. What she is not telling Buffy here is that the only way, probably, is by breaking the amulet, unless there's another VD weakness we don't know about. Of course, then if the amulet was broken, and Anya lost her powers right then and there, Buffy might not have gone through with the final kill after all. We will never know, I guess!

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: I never thought... (7.5 spoilers) -- Arethusa, 09:26:25 10/24/02 Thu

"unless there's another VD weakness we don't know about. "

Penicillin?

[> [> [> [> [> Touche! -- Rob, 13:17:23 10/24/02 Thu

[> [> [> I think it was a refence to sending Angel to Hell -- Spike Lover, 09:35:46 10/24/02 Thu

Remember sword fight with Angel, telling him to close his eyes and then stabbing him?

By the way: I DO NOT BELIEVE SHE STABBED ANGEL IN THE HEART WHEN SHE SENT HIM TO HELL. HE WOULD HAVE TURNED TO DUST AND THE PORTAL WOULD HAVE REMAINED OPEN. SHE HAD TO HAVE JUST STABBED HIM AND ALLOWED HIM TO BE SUCKED INTO HELL.

[> [> [> [> No, swords through chests don't hurt vamps -- Scroll, 09:49:35 10/24/02 Thu

I do think Buffy aimed for the heart because she needed Angel's blood to close the portal. And stabbing Angel through the heart with a sword wouldn't have turned him to dust because metal doesn't hurt vampires, only wood. But yes, I think you're right that stabbing Anya through the heart is a reference to Buffy stabbing Angel. Very clear parallel, actually.

[> Sloppy writing? -- Spike Lover, 11:52:24 10/23/02 Wed

The show is full of inconsistencies, maybe because they change writers so often.

[> [> Are you knocking the Drew? -- ponygoyle (Eviscerator of Arguements), 13:10:06 10/23/02 Wed

Inconsistencies in an episode that actually addressed a plot point from five years ago? And used a throwaway line from three years ago (D'Hoffryn's talisman) to solve a major problem? There are no inconsistencies only complexities!! Prepare to pelted with fruits and vegetables!

[> [> Sorry, Spike Lover, I know it always seems I'm picking on you, but... -- RobAndMurder, 21:30:40 10/23/02 Wed

...if I hear the phrases "sloppy," "inconsistent," or "bad" writing from you one more time, I'm gonna go nuts!!! Ponygirl is right. Tell me one other show that would bring up an argument from 5 years ago, and more so, do so to add a richer, more complex plot for the current episode. This episode addressed issues from years past, and was remarkably consistent for an origin episode. What possible minor mythology problems there are are not that big a deal--in fact, there are convincing arguments to explain away just about all of them, pendant and all, and they do not require stretching at all--and are more than made up for by how true to the characters the script was. I myself couldn't believe that a new writer churned out such a fan-frickin'-tastic script. If I hadn't known better, I would have thought that Joss himself wrote this one. It was that true to the show, the characters, the situation...and, as I already said, managed to deepen an already emotionally complex storyline and finally gave Anya the time to shine she so deserves. So, bah humbug on your "sloppy writing" claims!

Rob

[> [> [> Well, let's hear them -- Slarunt, 23:21:57 10/23/02 Wed

Earl has made his opinion know and I tend to agree with him.

Granted I have never written must more that speechs let alone a tv show, but we must face the facts that this wonderful and yes, best show on tv is written by people who make mistakes and sometimes have inflicted and self inflicted limited to what they can do, ie can't kill spike,etc.

I would gladly read your explaination of Earl's questions

[> [> [> [> Earl didn't have problems with the writing... -- Scroll, 06:30:10 10/24/02 Thu

As far as I can tell from reading his posts, he is simply wondering what Buffy's motivations are when it came to deciding to kill Anya. Earl never mentioned having any problems with the script or how the story was plotted.

Spike Lover brought up "sloppy writing" but didn't defend why she thought this episode was sloppily written except to say it had inconsistencies. Personally, I thought "Selfless" was incredibly consistent. Continuity, continuity, continuity! But I think ponygirl and Rob's main issue is that "sloppy writing" is often used by posters as an argument for story-lines they don't like, rather than to critique actual dialogue or clumsy parallels or contrived resolutions to dilemmas.

[> [> [> [> [> Yup, Scroll got it, and regarding... -- Rob, 09:29:42 10/24/02 Thu

...the alleged mythology problems, some of the arguments are included under the "Three Reasons Amulet Destruction May Not Have Been an Option" higher up on this thread. Now, again, I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility of a flub, but that there are convincing arguments on both sides to explain.

Other than that, check out any of my posts all over this page. Gotta go to work, so I don't have time at the moment to copy them and paste them in a post here, so I'm sorry to make ya go on a treasure hunt to find my ideas about this episode!

But Scroll was right, on the other issue, Earl didn't accuse the show of sloppy writing. He just had some character motivation questions. SL dropped the "sloppy" word, which I have a major problem with, because I thought the episode was brilliantly written, down to the tiniest syllable. I'm not saying that everyone has to agree with me, but I'm getting kind of sick of people attacking the writers for their own problems with the storyline. I'm not the only one here, also, who thought this has been the best episode of the year so far. It ranks among my very favorites of all time, and has moved me more than any episode since "The Gift." What possible problems there might be with the rules of vengeance demons (which I really don't think were broken at all) was more than made up for by what a brilliant, sharp, deep script this was. We not only gained major insight into Anya, a character who is rarely in the forefront or taken seriously, but, through parallelling Anya's story with previous ones--Angel's death in "Becoming," Spike's origin story in "Fool for Love", Xander's argument with Buffy in "Seeing Red" about her having slept with Spike, among others--as well as with current ones--Spike in the basement with the two Buffys, Willow's brief lapse back into Evil!Willow mode--the episode brought us closer to every character. We heard words that have been long unspoken between the Scoobies, arguments that we thought had been long forgotten, but had actually been lying underneath the surface...ideological and philosophical differences between the friends. This episode was, IMO, a continuity buff's dream.

Rob

[> [> [> Actually, I was just offering an answer to a question -- Spike Lover, 09:53:13 10/24/02 Thu

I was not making a claim.

But I will tell you this, I am not certain you can have it both ways. If you say the writing is accurate, dead on, exactly as it is suppose to be, then fine. I will judge the characters on what they say and do, and when I do that, people get REALLY upset because Buffy (and other characters)comes across as VERY Flawed and often- unlikeable to some viewers.

Now, when people point out the character flaws on the board, we are often attacked and aggressively argued with, and accused of bashing the characters.

In this original post, the poster is saying that he sees some inconsistencies and he wants some explanation for them. Either the writers have slipped up, not remembering what happened seasons ago, or how that character dealt with the problem at that time, or else the writer is completely aware of past eps and is making the character react in X
way on purpose.

[> [> [> [> You have a point -- Scroll, 11:33:31 10/24/02 Thu

about us either accepting the writers as infallible and therefore the characters as flawed, or vice versa. Personally, I see the writers as being in control (though not infallible) and if the characters are being written as unlikeable, then they're unlikeable. However I don't think Earl was ever questioning the consitency of the writing so much as questioning the consistency of Buffy's attitude towards friends/murderers. From what I understood, he was questioning Buffy's motives for deciding to kill Anya when she has let others go in the past.

I don't mind arguing that the characters are flawed -- because of course they are! They're not perfect, it would be boring if they were. I guess there's a fine line between analysing a character's motivations to understand that them better, and "character bashing". I'm sorry, I realise now that you weren't claiming that "Selfless" had bad writing but were merely trying to answer what you thought Earl was asking.

[> [> [> [> [> Okay, Spike Lover, I understand where you're coming from now... -- Rob, 12:43:10 10/24/02 Thu

...but I agree with Scroll, that the fault lies not in the writing, but in the characters themselves. And I also see how there's a fine line here btw. finding character flaws, and bashing them. (I seem to go into "seeing red" mode when the tone of a criticizing a character post refuses to see any good qualities of the character. For example, I can see why some people would see Buffy as being cold to Spike in this episode. But I do not see why these people who think this would not also acknowledge that the fact that Buffy went down to the basement to specifically tell Spike that he has to get out of there, despite the tone and manner, does show that she does care a bit about him. If she were totally cold, she wouldn't have gone down there at all, and would have let him rot. I don't wanna get into a Buffy/Spike riff right now though, because the relationship is obviously so complicated and could drag anyone into an hours-long debate.)

I agree that Buffy acted too harshly in wanting to kill Anya and not examining any other options, but I think that it was meant to say something about her character this year. She was going into full-on slayer-attack mode, I believe, to circumvent ideological and philosophical problems she is constanly grappling with internally. See Shadowkat's Mind/Heart/Spirit, etc post b/c I agree with her assessment of the situation. At the same time I see that Buffy is wrong to go after Anya like this, I also understand why Buffy, as a character, in this point in her life, believes it is necessary. And how much her belief that it is necessary is hurting her. Many times this year we have seen her fall completely into her Slayer role and deny her Human feelings, to distance herself and let her do her job. I think this is leading to a huge reexamination her character will have of her life. She has been told she has a great deal of love inside her, and I hope, by the end of this season, she will learn that she does not have to block out her Slayer instincts to be human, or her Human instincts to be the Slayer.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> The closest comparison I can find. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:05:13 10/24/02 Thu

. . . within the Buffyverse for Buffy trying to kill Anya is when Angel killed the Prio Moto demon. In both cases, the demon was not truly evil, though Anya was definitely a lot closer to evilness. In both cases, the hero rushes off to kill the demon, not realizing the full scope of the situation. Angel didn't know about the Prio Moto's benevolent guardianship of the pregnant lady, and Buffy didn't know that Anya felt any remorse for the deaths she had caused. If Buffy had succeeded in killing Anya, it would have been a tragedy, yes, but I think it wouldn't be quite the same as murder. When you think about it, if Halfrek had summoned the spider, none of us would probably by having this conversation. And, from what Buffy could see, there didn't seem much to distinguish Anya from Halfrek, or many other demons. Now, what many posters seem to be going against is Buffy not talking the situation over with Xander and Willow. And I agree that this was a flaw in her character this episode, not denying it. However, I also think Willow deserves some blame for not mentioning her plan to summon D'Hoffryn. If Buffy knew of this, I think she might have gone along with it, though would probably be thinking "this is never gonna work, and I'll have to kill Anya when it fails". In short, Buffy behaved rashly, but not bitch-ingly considering the level of information about the situation she had.

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