October 2002 posts
Who is Wesley maddest at? -- Darby, 20:47:27 10/21/02 Mon
When Angel "forgave" Wes, it was almost a tossaway - Wes accepted it, helped Angel with his problem, and moved on. I don't think that Wes was expecting it, and it occurs to me that he expected Angel to have the best rationale for holding a grudge - it was nice that it has passed, but Wes is obviously still in pain.
But he's certainly not looking to resume contact with Angel Investigations, he's obviously hurt and angry toward the others' rejection. Pure speculation, whose rejection would have hurt him the most - Cordy, whom he's known the longest, or Gunn, whom he established the closest working relationship with (and that whole trust-in-combat thing) or Fred, who he hoped would eventually see him in a different light, as he saw her?
He might be mad more at himself and keeping his contact minimal out of embarrassment, but it's hard to reconcile that with his continuing to keep AI out of the loop as he searched for Angel, continuing the pattern that got him in trouble in the first place...
Put in his place, which rejection would you find most painful?
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Sorry - Season 4 Spoilers Above! -- Darby, with profuse apologies., 21:18:09 10/21/02 Mon
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Re: Who is Wesley maddest at?/Spoilers 4.3 -- alcibiades, 21:22:11 10/21/02 Mon
When Angel "forgave" Wes, it was almost a tossaway - Wes accepted it, helped Angel with his problem, and moved on.
Actually it was a tossaway -- Angel says I never thanked you -- framed in the negative -- not Thank You Wesley. He never actually does say thank you -- Here Angel elaborates that "it must have been hard for you ... no map ... all that water." But still Angel has not precisely said thank you. He does
say that he thought about the way things went and the way they could have gone and from Angel's POV, "we're okay, again."
At this revelation, Wesley says nothing, but looks at Angel half hard, half pained.
And Angel cannot make eye contact with Wesley as Wesley looks at him -- after he finishes saying "we're okay again," Angel drops his eyes and looks down.
Being the sensitive, big brainy type, Wesley sees through Angel's wordy facade -- he thinks he knows why Angel came and whence the awkwardness. He knows -- and he's mostly correct not entirely, since Wesley did play a part in Angel's vision of family under the sea, although he came into focus much later than the others and sat at the furthest place from Angel -- that what Angel really wants is Wesley's help in finding Cordy, not Wesley at all.
So I think that Wesley is actually mad at all of them.
One point in last night's episode was enlightening, however. It was interesting to see how quickly Gun took offense at Lorne's behaviour and wrote him off, when he assumed that Lorne had written them off. He seems to have been as quickly offended by Wesley's behavior -- this seems to be an instinctive, defensive reaction -- but Wesley never got the time to explain -- he was never asked the question by any of them. Even though he wanted to explain his POV behind what happened.
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Re: Who is Wesley maddest at?/Spoilers 4.3 -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:24:57 10/21/02 Mon
It's sad that things may have turned out a little better if Wesley had been able to speak following his throat-cutting by Justine.
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Re: OT to Finn -- aliera, 16:16:40 10/22/02 Tue
Finn were you the person who asked a while ago about trouble with cut and paste after upgrading? I just upgraded AOL and now I can't cut and paste. Theories?
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Copy and Paste -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:38:06 10/22/02 Tue
That was me. I don't know why this happens, but I've found using the letter keys makes it work (Ctrl-V to paste, Ctrl-C to cut). Hope that helps.
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Re: Who is Wesley maddest at? -- TeacherBoy, 21:44:38 10/21/02 Mon
Personally? I would find Cordilia the hardest, for a simple reason. Not only has he known her the longest, but it is most out of character for her to march lockstep with the beat of Angel and Co. The Cordy of old would have said what needed to be said, which is that while there is no excusing what he did, there should damn well be forgiving what he did. Let's face it - Angel, of *all* people (undead or not) is that last person who should be throwing stones in this particular glass house, and Cordy is the one person who would have stood up and said this. This, I think, goes a long way in supporting the hypothosis of alcibiades in a great post down below about Cordilia (Re: The House always wins. (spoilers for the Angel ep)). The gist being Cordilia has subsumed herself to Angel first in spirit, and now physically. At this point in time, St. Cordy would never do anything that went against what Angel wanted.
On a slightly different note, I was less than enthused about "The House Always Wins" for any number of reasons, but as always there a few things to rave about. Amy Acker...Ok, you can already see where I'm going with that. But more pertinent to your question is Wes and Lilah's relationship. Wow! There has not been a single relationship on either show in the last 3-4 years that I have have been completely enthralled with. I don't mean in the 'shippy sort of way. Just in the "Oh cool! where in the Hell are they going with this and this going to be a beautiful train wreck" sort of way. At this point, I don't think we have been given enough information to guess where this is going to end up. I think that something Very Big and Very Bad (but Very, Very Interesting) is going to happen to Wes about halfway through the season (don't worry - I'm blissfully spoiler free). Wes just has this look, a look that says, 'I have something up my sleeve, and neither Lilah, W&H, or my former friends at AI have a frickin' clue'.
I love that.
TeacherBoy
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Re: Who is Wesley maddest at? -- Silky, 06:27:43 10/22/02 Tue
>>Wes just has this look, a look that says, 'I have something up my sleeve...
I agree - I have thought since last season that Wes is playing W&H and Lilah in order to ultimately help Angel, but so far this doesn't *appear* to be the case - which means nothing in Whedonland.
Silky
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Re: Who is Wesley maddest at? (spoilers thru 4.3) -- tim, 10:20:51 10/22/02 Tue
When Angel "forgave" Wes, it was almost a tossaway - Wes accepted it, helped Angel with his problem, and moved on.
I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of the scene. From the time he got his voice back, Wesley said he was hurt more by the fact that no one was interested in his side of the story than by the fact that they were mad at him. He's been nursing the venom from that for several months now. Yet, he's done all he feels he can do to bridge the gap without anyone reaching out at all from the other side. Yes, he's Morally Ambiguous Guy right now, banging Lilah and stealing AI's clients, but he also spent three months searching for Angel and Cordy after they gave him abundant reason not to care about them. There was discussion after "Deep Down" that Fred's comment to him in the hotel ("You really don't care, do you?") shows how little AI is trying to patch up relations with him. After all, if keeping a slave girl in your closet for three months to look for the man who tried to kill you isn't caring, then what is? :o) The look Wes gives Fred in that moment is as if to say, "What planet are you from? After what I just did for you...?" Which brings me to the point that I really do have.
My reading of the scene between Angel and Wes is that it's quite similar to the scene between Wes and Fred the week before. As others point out, Angel never actually says "thank you," and it's apparent that he wouldn't be there at all if that were his real reason for coming. Then he makes the rather lame comment about how "we're okay again." Here's where we disagree--I don't think Wes accepts it; he just doesn't have anything to say, given how quickly he sees through what Angel is doing to his ulterior motive (getting Cordy back). The look (similar to the one he gives Fred) seems to say, "That's it? Ostracize me, try to kill me, and then simply 'we're okay?' It doesn't wash." My feeling is that it isn't enough for Wes: he wants some recognition that he has legitimate grievance. He's willing to acknowledge that he made a tragic mistake, but wants someone to notice that there's plenty of blame to go around.
He won't accept "thank you" until he hears "we're sorry."
--th
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I give Wesley more credit than that. (spoilers thru 4.3) -- Darby, 10:40:03 10/22/02 Tue
If there is anyone who has a legitimate grievance against Wes, it's Angel. I can't believe that Wesley wouldn't accept that, no matter the extenuating circumstances, and the "We're okay again," given some reflection, is the best he could expect to get from Angel. You can't just steal someone's baby and lose it to psychopaths and expect the parent will come around to see your point of view any time soon. Maybe we should cut Mommy Cordy a break here as well, although I expected her to be the bridge-maker - if it's some unknown behind-the-scenes Charisma drama that drove Cordy's path elsewhere, we should be happy, because Ostracized Wesley is way more interesting than he was before.
The extenuating circumstances should make a difference to the rest of AI, though - these are all people who have had to come to grips with Angel's little problem, that he could go evil unexpectedly, how could they stay mad for Wesley taking a prophecy about that seriously, and is his cutting them out of the decision-making, given their distractions, so unforgiveable? I'm still pissed at them.
- Darby, with a bit of a Grrr and and Arrgh thinking about it...
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Re: I give Wesley more credit than that. (spoilers thru 4.3) -- alcibiades, 11:17:09 10/22/02 Tue
Wesley I think very possibly would have accepted Angel, "we're okay now," if Angel had been being straight with him -- but he sees that Angel only says it because he needs Wesley's help to find Cordy.
What Wesley wants is for someone to come to him -- to care enough about him just to ask -- even hostilely -- for his side of events. That, at least, would show caring.
But no one at AI has done that.
We see this week why Gunn hasn't done that -- he's too defensive, look at his reaction to Lorne -- he's ready to cut Lorne lose totally when he feels he is being dissed by a Lorne who has moved on to a brighter life. There is insecurity there -- and it is the same mess of emotions that dictated how he responded to Wesley.
We see Fred wanting to help Lorne still -- and this time she persuades Gunn that something is wrong -- and when Gunn tells Lorne after the rescue what he thinks of him for betraying Angel, Lorne's throat not only has not been cut, but it's in beautiful shape to provide an answer. This is an opportunity that Wesley never had. Wesley's muteness is juxtaposed beautifully with Lorne's soaring singing complete with big orchestra.
I'm not cutting Cordy a break -- her total wrap up in Angel and only his feelings and only his POV has resulted in her complete loss of identity. This is her fatal flaw resulting in her literal expulsion from heaven.
Even if the result was to make Wesley more interesting.
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Re: I give Wesley more credit than that. (spoilers thru 4.3) -- Arethusa, 12:03:05 10/22/02 Tue
I'd say it's self-esteem, not identity, wrapped up in Angel. The results are the same, though.
So why was she kicked out of Sim Heaven? Isn't she helping their Champion? Or is he no longer the Champion?
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Now Cordelia and Angel -- alcibiades, 12:20:57 10/22/02 Tue
Maybe she helped now, but her focus was so intensely on Angel, despite her potential for the wide angel lens through space and maybe time that she didn't realize that what she did would only makes things much, much worse later on.
After all, the Dinza did tell Angel that he has so much more to lose.
And after all, shouldn't a champion be able to fight for his own destiny, despite the altercations of fate. Lorne said in Vegas what you lose is lost -- but Lorne is often wrong or sees things imprecisely. He significantly misinterpreted what Wesley was up to with Holtz after Wesley socked him and he misinterpreted Connor's first words to Angel after Connor arrived in this dimension.
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Re: Now Cordelia and Angel -- Arethusa, 12:27:21 10/22/02 Tue
Yes, it could have been that Angel was meant to wander aimlessly for a while until he learned to stop abandoning his mission whenever something came up in his life! Or some other long-term plan TPTB had for him. Maybe she just did the right thing for the wrong reason-but she said she wasn't allowed to interfere. Just with Angel? Or with anyone? Skip told her she had work to do Up There-if she isn't allowed to interfere, what was she allowed to do?
Maybe next week will explain more.
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Re: Now Cordelia and Angel -- yabyumpan, 13:10:04 10/22/02 Tue
"Yes, it could have been that Angel was meant to wander aimlessly for a while until he learned to stop abandoning his mission whenever something came up in his life!"
Just a couple of points about this:
First; I don't think he did abandon his mission when something came up in his life (I presume you're talking about the little thing of having a child he thought he could never have. Well colour him bad for being a new father and being in awe of that!), he dealt with the Count's magic stuff in WITW, 2 cases in 'Couplet', various cases in 'Provider', saving Justines life in 'Benediction'. I don't see that the 'mission' has been abandoned.
Secondly, this isn't a show about 'the mission', any more than BtVS is just about Buffy slaying vampires. It's about Angel, his story, his journey. 'The mission' is a peg to hang part of that story on but it's not the whole story. Other parts of his story include his son, his 'family', who he loves. Incidently, I love the whole Cordy/Angel relationship thing but I realise that I am, once again, out of step with the majority on this board and I haven't got time to go into that now although I have in the past.
I agree with you in that I hopwe we get more of a backgroung into what Cordy was doing 'up there' and why she was there.
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Re: I give Wesley more credit than that. (spoilers thru 4.3) -- tim, 13:41:00 10/22/02 Tue
Wesley I think very possibly would have accepted Angel, "we're okay now," if Angel had been being straight with him -- but he sees that Angel only says it because he needs Wesley's help to find Cordy.
What Wesley wants is for someone to come to him -- to care enough about him just to ask -- even hostilely -- for his side of events. That, at least, would show caring.
But no one at AI has done that.
I think this is what I was trying to say. It's not that Wesley expects to be immediately forgiven; he just wants some recognition of the fact that his actions were motivated by love rather than hate and that the subsequent events left no one blameless. No one at AI seems the least bit interested in doing either one--the only time they reach out to him is when they need his expertise. Meeting halfway may be too much to expect, but surely he can expect more than nothing from them. It doesn't seem the least bit odd to me that in the wake of this attitude he's turned his back on them, as well.
--th
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Re: Who is Wesley maddest at? -- Shiraz, 13:58:32 10/22/02 Tue
Himself.
After all it was his plan that went all pear-shaped and nearly got himself killed. He was the one who bought the sob story of a known enemy and allowed her to get close enough to knife him.
And remember Wes is a man who prides himself on his rational mindset and his planning ability.
I imagine Wes's thoughts while bleeding in the bushes was more along the lines of:
"Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!!"
rather than:
"I can't wait to tell my boon compatriots my side of this rather amusing turn of events"
But that's just me.
Cordy - spoilers thru AtS 7.3 -- Silky, 06:51:38 10/22/02 Tue
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet - with only a dial-up connection instead of high-speed I don't get to read as much of the list as I would like because it takes too long for each message to load.
Anyone who watched Lois and Clark will remember the "Clark finally gets Lois back only she has amnesia-again-and falls for someone else" plot line. [L&C was another misunderstood show about relationships and power, BTW]. Anyway, I found it interesting that Cordy has amnesia. My thought is that TPTB got mad at her for interfering in Angel's life and booted her out of her dimension sans memory so she can't talk about anything she learned up there. We can only hope that she returns to the snarky, tactlessly accurate, gorgeous brunette Cordy of old - St. Cordy was so boring.
Silky - no evil name yet. Anyone know how to spell Picard's Borg name? Locutis??
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Re: Cordy - Ooops sorry- spoilers thru AtS 4.3 -- Silky, 07:13:03 10/22/02 Tue
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A consummation devoutly to be wished - Cordy - spoilers thru AtS 7.3 -- Who...Who...Who let the dogs out, 09:34:10 10/22/02 Tue
There is hope for the future -- now that she has forgotten she is good and that Angel only loves blonds, maybe, please the devil, she'll lose that godawful hair and take off that damn white dress.
Considering that she has been wearing it now for 4 months, I'm surprised no one made a stinky remark about her.
Oh, yeah, that's right. The characters on Angel are much, much more mature.
William the good boy/bad man (Spoilers through 7.4) -- Pilgrim, 06:52:22 10/22/02 Tue
As a Spikefan, and having been given little to chew on these last two episodes, I've been meditating on WilliamSpike's comment in STSP that "William is a good boy," and his comment in the very next episode that "William is a bad man." And I've been making mountains out of molehills, thinking these are clues as to WilliamSpike's efforts to discover/create himself.
The "good boy" exists in a relationship to an outside authority. William is a good boy in STSP when he "carries the water" for the SC, performing whatever shit job Buffy asks (commands? in her role this season as commander) him to do, even taking on the role as the group's blood-sniffing dog. William is a good boy when he "carries his sin." The use of the word "sin" rather than some other word that might've been appropriate--"guilt" or "memory"--suggests to me the authority of the church and WilliamSpike's willingness to accept the way his past bad behavior is defined and given meaning by that authority. We also saw WilliamSpike as hall monitor in the school basement, perhaps, as others here have suggested, accepting duties imposed on him by whatever authority has taken or is trying to take command there.
But WilliamSpike also acknowledges in STSP that although it is "supposed to help to help," it "isn't getting easier" and it's "still so heavy." WilliamSpike seems to think (like many of us in RL) that if he plays the good boy and pleases/appeases whatever authority is making demands on him, he will find redemptioncakes, or at least a lessening of pain. Reminds me of the Narrator in Melville's "Barleby the Scrivener," which I've been re-reading this week. The Narrator, a "Christian," tries to help Bartleby ("I'd prefer not to") because of his sense of the obligations of "Christian" charity. But he discovers both that he can't help Bartleby and that he doesn't feel better for having tried. Instead, he feels despair. Like the Narrator, WilliamSpike may feel as though he's been betrayed because it doesn't, in fact, help to help.
I think it's cool that we see WilliamSpike's throwaway lines in STSP about it not helping to help get played out as the main plot in Help. But in Help, WilliamSpike is now in a different place than he was in STSP. WilliamSpike is no longer trying to be the "good boy." He now says "William is a bad man." He has shut out the voice(s) in the basement and is not accepting the good-boy role of hall monitor. He tries to shut out Buffy's request (command?) that he give her information--he says at first that he can't hear her. We hear no mention of sin or any other terminology that suggests the church's authority.
The bad man doesn't deserve a reward for trying to be good, isn't even trying the good-boy path to redemption anymore. And we see some disturbing self flagelation that I for one hope the man WilliamSpike moves beyond, and quickly. Please, oh wise Joss, let WilliamSpike's path lead not to self punishment and self abnegation. I'd much prefer evilSpike than that.
WilliamSpike choses to help at the end of the episode, but we aren't told why. We don't see the scene where he decides to help. All he says when he arrives in the library is, "Here to help. No hurting the girl."
So why does he decide to help? Just because Buffy needs him? I don't think so; Buffy doesn't seem to need anyone in her fights with monsters this season. Or because he wants Buffy to need him? Maybe. But maybe WilliamSpike is finally acting out of his own nascent sense of right and wrong. Maybe "no hurting the girl" is commandment number one in WilliamSpike's new moral consciousness--the consciousness of a man, not a boy.
And I wonder what would happen if WilliamSpike's first commandment came into conflict with those authorities that the good boy was trying to appease in STSP. Perhaps the authority in the basement is killing off the Slayers-in-training. Or perhaps Buffy at some point will need to "kill the girl" for some reason. Will WilliamSpike choose an authority to please and play the good boy? Will he create corollaries to his own first commandment? Will his head explode? Will his heart fall out (again)? Sigh.
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Helping to help (Spoilers, all Buffy eps in Season 7 aired so far) -- Rahael, 12:56:17 10/22/02 Tue
Very interesting post - have to think about many of the points you've made. Or actually read the transcript or something (wildfeeds are so misleading!)
How would you consider the theme of Spike's attitude to helping fit into the larger theme of helping, and saving and redeeming? Where Buffy in Lessons faces all the people she hasn't helped, or saved? Can she help/save Willow or Spike? the students who come to her for advice?
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Re: Helping to help (Spoilers, all Buffy eps in Season 7 aired so far) -- aliera, 16:29:11 10/22/02 Tue
I too liked your post...on a different note than Rah; I've wondered (too much perhaps) about the rest of William's backstory. What happened before FFL flashback to create the William we saw?
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Re: Helping to help (Spoilers, all Buffy eps in Season 7 aired so far) -- Pilgrim, 17:42:33 10/22/02 Tue
Thanks for the response, and to Rah too. I'm new at posting on discussion boards, so the encouragement is "helpful."
You know, just thinking out loud here, both religion and evolutionary biology (the theory of the selfish gene) recognize that a strong motive for doing good is so that good will be done to us in turn. Salvation through good works is, I think, a strong component of the Christian religion, even if not a complete statement of the doctrine of salvation (there's salavation through faith as well). And certainly Christianity is coming through as an important image in the most recent episodes (WilliamSpike burning on the cross; the prayer of St Francis closing season six).
But I wonder if we won't see that the God of Christianity, as depicted in the Buffyverse, will reject poor ole Spikey. After all, the series works at subverting paradigms. Maybe Buffy herself will, by the end, be a stand-in for God (others have commented that she may be headed toward goddess status). She already seems more at home in her role as leader, as law-giver, meting out justice and mercy. Course, she's not omnipotent, but having a less-than-omnipotent god figure could also be a powerful comment on religion. And, come to think of it, in the Christian religion, God wont (cant?) save everyone. Buffy cant, and maybe wont, save everyone either. If Buffy, as God's stand-in in the show, rejects WilliamSpike, that may push him out of any effort to find redemption through good works. But what will be his substitute path to redemption, if any?
Okay, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. But I do agree, Aliera, that I sure would like to see some of William's backstory. I'd love to discover that sissypants good-boy, senstive poet William is stronger than we've been led to think. After all, where did Spike get his talent for persistence, endurance?
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Re: Helping to help (Spoilers, all Buffy eps in Season 7 aired so far) -- aliera, 18:40:22 10/22/02 Tue
Welcome, Pilgrim.
I'm posting quickly before heading off to surfing and then sleeping and I can't respond to this type of post well off-the-cuff. But I will think about what you said initially ( I posted on impulse and have yet to really digest what you were saying) and in the last post. Hopefully, I will before the thread is archived. I'm not sure that I'd have anything insightful to say anyway...Searcher not Sage...(or that I'd be willing to say) on the hot buttons of religion or evolutionary biology, both of which (oddly) were areas of research for me this summer. One question I might ask though is what you mean by the theory of the selfish gene and how it relates to doing good. I'm not clicking on that.
By now you've probably seen 7.5 (or will shortly?)It dances around a little of this vis-a-vis Buffy. I don't really see William in that way though. I'm not sure his path is through Buffy at this point. I was surprised and intrigued by ME christian references and I am curious and disturbed about the good boy line and what it may allude. But, I see William on a somewhat different journey I feel. Too much reading about vampires lately, perhaps. And bye the bye it's OK not to know where you're going.
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Bad Man -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:39:30 10/22/02 Tue
7.4 isn't the only time Spike described himself as a bad man. In Lie To Me, after he snapped at Dru, he said "I'm sorry, luv. I'm a bad, cruel man". This shows that to Spike, being a bad man isn't something he wants to be, despite the fact that he enjoys being evil. Perhaps it's the fact that the part of him he equates with love (whether for Drusilla or Buffy) is the "man" part of him, and hurting the woman you love is being a "bad man".
Angel 4.2 Ground State - Gwen - Angel Spoiler -- Angelina, 10:01:28 10/22/02 Tue
I have a question for the board: Is the actress who portrayed Gwen in Angel Ground State, the same actress who played "Glory" on Buffy Season Five? Gwen looked just like Glory with dark hair. I thought the character Gwen was terrific and would love to see her again. Especially as a romantic interest for Angel. Hey even I felt the "charge" of electricity between them! Hopefully, Cordy won't regain her memory until the show is cancelled!
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Re: Angel 4.2 Ground State - Gwen - Angel Spoiler -- Masq, 11:59:44 10/22/02 Tue
Definitely not the actress who played Glory.
Several people have noted below that David B. had more on-screen chemistry with the actress who played "Gwen" than he has with Charisma Carpenter. Gwen probably won't be back, but I think that says something. Chemistry as friends doesn't equal chemistry as a romantic pairing.
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Re: Angel 4.2 Ground State - Gwen - Angel Spoiler -- Angelina, 12:32:30 10/22/02 Tue
Thanks so much for the info. I am sorry "Gwen" wasn't the actress who portrayed Glory, cause I really loved the way she played that part (what was her name anyway??)and I am really sorry that Gwen won't be back, however, I am profoundly sorry that the writer's might try to pursue the "romantic" element of the Angel/Cordy relationship. Yikes. It just isn't working. Anyhow, I cannot let the Angel/Cordy dynamic aggravate me. Especially since Buffy is on tonight, and I know I will be sufficiently PO-ed at the Spike/Buffy relationship to keep me fired up all week, but I love it! See ya later!
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Re: Angel 4.2 About Gwen - -- alcibiades, 14:13:33 10/22/02 Tue
Why do you think Gwen won't be back?
It's rare we get that much introduction to a character who just disappears off the radar screen immediately.
I'd say the long introduction to Gwen just about proves she'll be back -- otherwise why should we need to know anything about her childhood.
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Re: Angel 4.2 About Gwen - -- Masq, 14:18:45 10/22/02 Tue
When I said that, I was thinking of other characters that made an impression, like Bethany in season 2, ep 4. We got stuff about her childhood, etc, but she hasn't come back so far.
Of course, I don't read spoilers, and even if she was a one-shot deal, if she's popular with the audience somehow, they'll bring her back.
She didn't make a big impression with me, speaking personally.
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Re: Angel 4.2 About Gwen - -- Elizabeth, 14:48:19 10/22/02 Tue
The actress that played Glory is named Clare Kramer.
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Re: Angel 4.2 About Gwen - -- alcibiades, 14:49:32 10/22/02 Tue
She didn't make a big impression with me, speaking personally.
Yeah, but she seemed to make a heart stopping impression on Angel.
Which is interesting, in light of the fact that universal viewer complaint about the Cordy-Angel relationship is -- no sparks.
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Re: Angel 4.2 About Gwen - -- Masq, 14:55:23 10/22/02 Tue
I think people's response to the Angel-Gwen chemistry is mostly an outgrowth of the lack of Angel-Cordy chemistry. Someone on the board (I forget who) said David B. has chemistry with just about every woman except Charisma Carpenter.
*snerk*
Although I do like their chemistry as friends. Angel needs Cordelia's daily kick-in-the-butt.
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Alexa Davilos played Gwen - POTENTIAL future spoilers (Masq Don't read though these are ? potential) -- Sergio, 16:36:21 10/22/02 Tue
There are rumors that Gwen returns several times later this season (specifically episode 9) But, Alexa Davalos is slated to star in a new midseason Fox series, so those rumors aren't necessarily true
A New Understanding (Spoilers 7.5) -- Cecilia, 18:20:54 10/22/02 Tue
I had the opportunity to watch this episode early Monday (via satellite feed) and again tonight. I can't remember the last time I was so intrigued by an episode. I have a completely new understanding, appreciation and depth of feeling for Anya, and I liked her before!
I was watching a season 5 episode the other day where Anya, still a new employee of the Magic Box, says to Giles:
"I have a place in the world. I'm a working gal!" At the time I thought she was refering to finding a purpose to her new human life, after having lost her previous purpose as a vengence demon. I know realize that she never really felt that she had a purpose all along! I think she tried to have a purpose as a vengence demon but it did not really fulfill her the way she said it did. She simply had nothing else. Aside from Olaf, whom she had to turn into a troll (well either that or maybe leave him, but what's the fun in that)no one cared for her, or would even take the time to speak to her for that matter. Is it any wonder D'Hoffran's flattery was so tempting to her? I got the distinct impression that she felt quite invisible to the rest of the world, which is probably why it didn't bother her not to be a part of it.
I just get her now, in a way I never did before. She really did fit right in to the Scooby Gang. She had the same insecurities that they all did, and even they did not accept her right away. Rejected by the rejects? What does that do to your self-esteem!
And-breeding bunnies, not for profit, but to give away out of the goodness of her heart. Priceless and too, too funny!
I know Buffy will probably take a lot of heat for going after Anya in the way that she did, but I understand where she was coming from. She was right, it was her responsibility to stop Anya and she had to be perfectly ready, willing and able to kill her to do it. Doesn't mean she wouldn't have tried a different approach if the opportunity presented itself. I think back to Becoming Part 2, if she had any chance to save Angel she would have, but not at the expense of innocent lives. Why should her standards be any different for Anya?
P.S.-The "Willow says to kick his ass" speech from season 2 nearly came back to bite Xander in the ass! I love it when they bring up past history like that.
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Re: A New Understanding (Spoilers 7.5) -- Dariel, 20:06:33 10/22/02 Tue
I know Buffy will probably take a lot of heat for going after Anya in the way that she did, but I understand where she was coming from. She was right, it was her responsibility to stop Anya and she had to be perfectly ready, willing and able to kill her to do it. Doesn't mean she wouldn't have tried a different approach if the opportunity presented itself
I'm not so sure about Buffy's behavior. Willow and Xander did try different approaches, and in the end, it was Willow's attempt that paved the way for the reversal of the wish. I think Buffy's behavior here, and her treatment of Spike earlier, showed that Buffy was in a rigid, take-no-prisoners mood. Possibly a kind of over reaction to her inability to save Cassie last week. Last week, she did every thing she could and then some. This week, she wasn't going to take the emotional risk.
Heart, Spirals, and Sacrifice....spoilers for Selfless -- Rufus, 18:58:18 10/22/02 Tue
Progression in the Buffyverse has been a concept that has not always been clear to see. Characters seem to get caught up in situations that cycle back to where they started. Take Anya, Buffy is right ....she chose to be a demon, twice. There is a motif of heart, spirals, and sacrifice that I think we have to pay attention to. We have the reference to the poem by WB Yeats ..The Second Coming.
The Second Coming by WB Yeats
TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Yeats had a way of seeing life that I think is also seen in the Buffyverse. He saw life as a spiral, his poetry full of spirals and how history can be seen in that sense.
Here, in his poems of the 1920's and 1930's, winding stairs, spinning tops, "gyres," spirals of all kinds, are important symbols; not only are they connected with Yeat's philosophy of history and of personality, but they also serve as a means of resolving some of those contraries that had arrested him from the beginning. Norton Anthology of English Literature Vol. 2
We have a way of seeing time as linear.....for instance the use of a timeline....but that is only useful for mapping out specific points in time but misses out the fact that certain situations repeat over and over again. Take Anya...her life started in a time long before Sunnydale was ever on the map. She had a way of looking at living that was "selfless" she wanted to trade bunnies for goodwill, not money...unlike the Anya that was proprietor of the Magic Box. She always had that direct way of dealing with the world that left her isolated and alone. No wonder when her husband Olaf cheated she wasn't connected enough to the world to see beyond her broken heart. That made her prime material for vengeance. Vengeance became what Anya was all about, she was the best at her work because she didn't let anything, like say getting a true identity past her constant reenactment of the worst time in her life...the time her heart was ripped out. D'Hoffryn sure knows how to pick them. Anya may be like a blunt instrument, but in her direct way of seeing things the results were catastrophic.
So, where does The Second Coming work in what I have to say? For one it continues the spiral references, and it pertains to each character and their individual development. Just as we think things never have changed something proves that more just went on than we thought.
Life is a journey up a spiral staircase; as we grow older we cover the ground we have covered before, only higher up; as we look down the winding stair below us we measure our progress by the number of places where we were but no longer are. The journey is both repetitious and progressive; we both round and upward. Through symbolic images of the kind Yeats explores the paradoxes of time and change, of growth and identity, of love and age, of life and art, of madness and wisdom. Norton Anthology of English Literature vol. 2
The use of time and space has been an excellent way of showing the development of all in BTVS. Each character may grow older, but some progress at a different rate than others. Anya is the oldest in the Scooby Gang, but her return to being a demon came from her immature, insecure state of being that had changed little from ancient times. If Anya were on a staircase, she would seem to have progressed little unless we look more closely at the great development over the past few years compared to the hundreds she had already lived. Becoming human again was when Anya learned to have friends and be loved by Xander. Where she started in Sweden she was an outcast because of her direct ways. She went from isolation to being part of a group who grew to appreciate her skills. Then Xander took a walk and tore her heart out. Anya couldn't see how far she came because she could only feel the familiar sting of humiliation and loss. Then her need for vengeance worked on ridding her of the heart she had developed after The Wish.
In her song in Selfless, Anya exposed her fear, the fact that she had no identity and was trying to find one through someone else. She had only a made up maiden name. This is her biggest problem and proves that though she may love Xander, she was no more ready to marry than he is. Becoming a demon again was Anyas way of refinding power, but as she had grown more of a heart, vengeance didn't mean as much to her any more. Anya had been ready to sacrifice herself for Xander in Triangle, she would do it for the one person she loved, how Anya proved just how far she has come is to be at a point where she once was in Triangle and human, to, as a demon ready to sacrifice herself for the return of the lives of the unseen frat boys. They meant nothing to her, but Anya had come so far in her development that she could no longer live for vengeance. In a twist, it was Halfreck that suffered so D'Hoffryn could make a point about going for the pain. Again Anya is at a point where she once was, human again, but instead of clinging to Xander she is ready to try again, even if her fear of being nobody, alone plague her functioning, fearful, heart.
So, I seem to have forgotten a certain poem, but I haven't. By looking at Anya and her progression we can go to each character Buffy, Spike, Xander, Willow and see that in this year of Back to the Beginning that all are where they once were, but are poised to prove through repetition that they either have or haven't grown. Buffy, is again the slayer who is the law, but finds growth through the love of her friends, if she isn't too afraid to accept it. Spike is human again and has to take the chance to leave the basement and attempt to make mistakes and grow past his humiliating moment before becoming a vampire. Xander can move beyond seeing himself as that dateless loser from High School and realize that time has passed. And Willow, Willow has the biggest temptation of all, she knows just how dehumanizing power can make one, and she has that power for good...but is good what she will end up using it for? Leading me to sacrifice, is it just something that will affect all in a relationship way or will someone end up the sacrifice needed for all to keep moving up that spiral staircase......from beneath you it devours....
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I liked this response from the Cross and Stake -- Rufus, 23:33:51 10/22/02 Tue
http://www.voy.com/13746/1/1980324.html
Date Posted: 22:36:27 10/22/02 Tue
Author: Shell
Subject: Nice post... I am feeling the need to babble a little...
In reply to: Leora 's message, "Heart, Spirals, and Sacrifice spoilers for "Selfless"" on 22:36:27 10/22/02 Tue
I worked on this project in college, one semester, and we spent hours upon hours in profound discussions about the essence of life, and all that deep stuff, only to end up back at the beginning. When we took a moment to reflect on what we had been saying, several people commented that our discussion had "come full circle" and we were "back where we started."
I became infuriated, jumped up, and drew a upward-climbing spiral on the board. (they were all pretty shocked, being the extremely shy gal I am). I then explained that our conversation did not make a circle, but a spiral. The discussion had evolved, and we began pulling ideas from earlier, and suddenly it felt like we were treading the same ground. We were, but we were doing it with a new understanding, a collective knowledge that could only be achieved by talking in spirals.
In my mind, I saw it like this: Some people move in a complete circle- they never change, never evolve- they repeat the same patterns, make the same mistakes. Others move in a straight line- always looking forward, with blinders on, never learning from their mistakes. Only those who move in spirals are able to fufill their full potential.
Anyway, back to Buffy. I have been talking on and on all summer about how the Back to the Beginning theme is a means to show how the characters have evolved since season 1. There have been examples in every episode (the comparison between X/A and B/A, and Xander's realization of his hypocrisy, was tonight's glaring point) in which we see the characters relive past experiences, but with new life experience and understanding of the situation. If that's not a spiral, than I don't know what is.
Thanks for the post, Leora. I sense that tackling Yeats for the first time since high school is in my future. :)
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Re: Yeats, Sphnix, "From Beaneath You It Devours" -- Deb, 07:29:02 10/23/02 Wed
Great Stuff!
Yeats, in his poem, alludes to the Sphinx that in Egyptian Mythology had the body of a lion and head of a man. In Greek mythology is has the body of a lion and head of a woman and kills those who cannot answer her its riddle about the mystery of life being the circle of life.
One more observation: "From beneath you it devours," kinda is a simile for the Sphinx. Youth (ignorance) devours aged (wisdom) with every generation by initiation into human society.
On a MORE spiritual note: Some believe that in order to break the spiral of rebirth into ignorance, one must understand fully the mystery of life. There's something else inside, but I can't quite yet pull it up.......When my fingertips get close enough to reach it, it pulls away. Something to do with turning one's back on society and embracing the shadow without killing it. Buffy had that look and feel to her last night. That Queen of Swords persona of a decisive, intelligent and brave warrior woman who realizes she exists outside......foreshadowing?
Very good episode. (Spoilers for Selfless and the Russian Revolution) -- Apophis, 19:05:47 10/22/02 Tue
Loved this episode. Nothing to complain about... except one thing. The Communist Revolution didn't occur in 1905, but in 1917. Now, to earn my No-Prize, I'll cover for the writers: in the Jossverse, the revolution occured 12 years earlier due to the intervention of Anyanka. There, that wasn't so hard.
Anyway, as I said, great episode. I loved the flashbacks to pre-millenial (the first one) Sweden and the way they all talked so literally there. I also liked Anya's praise of Communism. Irony is cool. It also goes to show that she was right; she did just cling to whatever was around at the time. I'm considering adding D'Hoffryn to my list of favorite villains.
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Re: Very good episode. (Spoilers for Selfless and the Russian Revolution) -- Lyonors, 19:13:34 10/22/02 Tue
Totally right there with ya on the Russian Revoloution...and then when her neckalace was smashed....it all went back...or so Giles says right? so *poof* with the correction of history!
Ly
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Re: Very good episode. (Spoilers for Selfless and the Russian Revolution) -- Jane, 19:22:50 10/22/02 Tue
Actually, there was a Russian Revolution in 1905 - Lenin later termed it as "the dress rehearsal" for the Revolution of 1917.
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This is what I get for hurrying -- Apophis, 19:28:38 10/22/02 Tue
It occured to me that maybe I should've checked my facts before posting. Good thing I decided not to minor in history.
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Perfectly understandable... -- Jane, 19:47:27 10/22/02 Tue
It's really the lesser-known revolutions that make the life of a history minor so difficult
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Great episode, and what did the allusion mean? spoilers -- Lilac, 19:28:43 10/22/02 Tue
I really enjoyed the episode, and the focus on Anya. I do wish that we had learned what turned her off bunnies, since she so clearly liked them in the old days.
My question relates to Spike's statement "...call Montresor" or words to that effect. My search indicates that there are a couple of places called Montresor, and also a guy who won the Victoria Cross in 1860 for actions in China. Is anyone familiar with this expression?
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It's French for Sir -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:36:11 10/22/02 Tue
Also, the main character of Edgar Allen Poe's "The Black Cat" was only called Montresor.
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Re: It's French for Sir -- Lilac, 19:38:31 10/22/02 Tue
My French is very rusty, but isnt' "monsieur" the word for sir? Also, that doesn't make sense in this context. But the cat might, I suppose.
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Re: It's French for Sir -- Jane, 19:44:13 10/22/02 Tue
Also, it could be a reference to Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado".
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Re: It's French for Sir -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:52:17 10/22/02 Tue
There was no Montresur in Cask of Amontillado, but in The Black Cat, which was basically the same story in a different form.
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To the Contrary, Monsieur -- La Duquessa, 20:06:33 10/22/02 Tue
The name of the narrator who walls up unfortunate Fornunato in "The Cask of Amontillado" is Montresor.
Famous last words:
"For the love of God! Montresor!"
I think that Our Boy William is suggesting perhaps he might be better if Buffy walled him up in the basement.
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Re: To the Contrary, Monsieur (possible season 7 speculation) -- Jane, 20:32:10 10/22/02 Tue
Or is he saying that he essentially *is* walled up in the basement already? Or, given that he says "scream Montresor all you like" to Buffy, is he suggesting that she will be trapped in the Hellmouth?
And who would be Fortunato in this scenario?
Curiouser and curiouser...
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OK, my bad, and thinking about this. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:50:27 10/22/02 Tue
I could have sworn that the narrarator in The Cask of Amontillado was left unnamed, but I know the guy who buried two people alive in The Black Cat had the same name. But, oh well, my bad.
When Fortunato screams, he is beyond hope. Montresor has already done the sealing job. "Scream, Montresor, all you like" may be an expression of hopelessness. Spike does say he's got no where else to go (I doubt this , but I'll accept it for the flow of the story), and he can't tell which Buffy is the real Buffy. His situation is one in which he is at the mercy of others (or THE Other, if you prefer), just like Fortunato, poor bastard.
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"The Black Cat" vs "The Cask of Amontillado" -- Off-kilter, 06:44:08 10/23/02 Wed
Actually, The Black Cat's narrator was never named. No names used at all except for the cat, Pluto. Montressor was only used in The Cask of Amontillado.
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Mon Trésor in french means "my treasure" -- Etrangere, 06:54:22 10/23/02 Wed
and is incidentally the most often heard translation of Gollum's preciousss.
Not sure if that's in anyway helpful:)
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Just posted a thread above on Montresor from a story by Poe -- Caroline, 10:39:16 10/23/02 Wed
see An English major's wet dream.
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Yup. I LOVE this show! -- Doriander (fan girl mode), 19:38:30 10/22/02 Tue
Willow finding dead bodies (again), Xander's lie, the talisman, Angel mention, Dru mention, Dark!Willow, Olaf, double standard debate, Anya singing, the "who summoned Sweet?' issue settled (still lame though).....Gah.
This new writer is a Buffyverse scholar.
One thing that unsettles me:
Buffy: I am the law.
Where have I heard that before?
Only thing that upset me is Halfrek dead. I loved Halfrek. No resolution for Cecily-Halfrek connection then?
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(Selfless Spoilers above) -- Doriander, 19:39:53 10/22/02 Tue
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Yup. I LOVE this show! -- Doriander (fan girl mode), 19:44:23 10/22/02 Tue
Willow finding dead bodies (again), Xander's lie, the talisman, Angel mention, Dru mention, Dark!Willow, Olaf, double standard debate, Anya singing, the "who summoned Sweet?' issue settled (still lame though).....Gah.
This new writer is a Buffyverse scholar.
One thing that unsettles me:
Buffy: I am the law.
Where have I heard that before?
Only thing that upset me is Halfrek dead. I loved Halfrek. No resolution for Cecily-Halfrek connection then?
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Re: Yup. I LOVE this show! -- The One With the Angelic Face, 20:15:32 10/22/02 Tue
Did Anya say something in her song regarding the summoning of Sweet? I couldn't understand all of the words? I thought we knew that it was Xander?
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Re: Yup. I LOVE this show! (7.5 Spoiler) -- Doriander, 20:54:08 10/22/02 Tue
There was speculation that Xander perhaps covered for Dawn (with reason, because really, Xander as the perp didn't make much sense).
During the musical flashback in 7.5, Xander murmured in his sleep: "I just want us to have a happy ending." Thus Joss puts his foot down.
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huh?? -- MayaPapaya9, 22:09:21 10/22/02 Tue
Buffy: I am the law.
Where have I heard that before?
Where HAVE you heard that before? It's not ringing any bells, should it be?
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Judge Dredd? -- tost, 22:20:07 10/22/02 Tue
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Re: huh?? -- Miss Edith, 01:32:02 10/23/02 Wed
Faith says in Consequences "We don't need the law we are the law".
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and... -- Etrangere, 06:57:54 10/23/02 Wed
it beautifully parallels Anya's "I'm vengeance"
Seems that our Slayer may have the same problem of self as Anya.
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Re: reference -- Diana Michelle, 23:50:03 10/22/02 Tue
Faith says, "We are the law." in 'Bad Girls', I believe.
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I can't express how much I loved this ep! (MAJOR 7.5 spoilage; general season 7 spoilers) -- Rob, 20:54:18 10/22/02 Tue
It's official for me. So far, this is the best season of "Buffy" yet. I hope hope hope that this level of quality is maintained for the whole year, because so far, ME has pulled off the unprecedented task of having 5 damn near perfect episodes in a row, at the start of a season! This season has been rewriting the term "average," because the only one so far I would have considered an "average" episode ("Help"), is actually only average compared to the other episodes this year. In fact, it is above average. So, therefore, average=above average; above average=great, and the highest rating after that would have to be masterpiece, a rating I would give to 3 of the episodes this year (Beneath You, STSP, and Selfless). And then where does that leave below average? A below average "Buffy" episode is always better than anything else on TV, making it just "average" in "Buffy" terms. Does everybody get all my reasoning here? My brain just may be acting a little screwy, because it's reeling with emotion after viewing "Selfless."
And I must say that such a perfect combination of humor and sadness is rare and amazing. This episode accomplished incredible feats...from brilliant comedic highs, filled with wacky hijinks and more in-jokes for fans than you can shake a stake at (how much did I love hearing the mustard stain occur? or learn of Anya's former love of bunnies, and how she was presumably turned off them when her love with Olaf went sour? or that Anya used to be anti-capitalism? or the fact that Anya was always literal-minded?)...to incredibly dark dramatic highs that left me breathless.
Tell me, what other show besides "Buffy" would give the payoff to a philosophical argument that has been brewing beneath the relationship of a group of friends, 5 seasons after it occurred? The philosophical argument to which I am referring of course, is whether Xander was right to not tell Buffy that Willow was trying to bring back Angel's soul...and why he has seen it as being alright to break the no-falling-in-love-with-demons rule that he has held Buffy to, for years now. That scene with Xander, Willow, and Buffy in the living room brought up issues that have been brewing beneath the surface for years now. They addressed Buffy's tendency to be detached, they addressed Xander's hypocrisy, they addressed the very reasons Buffy slays. They compared past events on the show, cross-referencing them in ways that I've only seen before on Masq's site! Boy, I can't wait for her analysis of this episode! So many nummy treats to chew on!
And I haven't even gotten to Anya. Emma Caulfield gave the performance of her career as Anya to date. I saw all the different versions of A(ud)/nya/nka (should that be her new name? lol) and how she brilliantly played variations on the same character, forming them all into a cohesive whole, and I was stunned. Not that I didn't love her already...but wow! (I'm not going to even get into how excited I was to finally see Anya literally kick some ass.) And I am so glad I was not spoiled, because this episode surprised me again and again. At first, I thought that maybe D'Hoffryn offering Anya a way out of her situation was too easy. And then I was heartbroken when I realized that there was no way out of this. Anya was going to die, and I couldn't believe it. And then a moment, later, Halfrek is killed, and it is suddenly so clear why D'Hoffryn was so seemingly fair to Anya moments ago. Wow, did this episode put me through the emotional ringer! And that's when it hit me how much the name "Selfless" made so much sense. Anya, after all these years of being a demon, and then returning to humanity, and then finding herself too human to remain detached when she returned again to her demonic form, finally found a way that she could make up for all the evil she had done, and the fact that she has no idea what her place in the world is now. She would commit a wholly selfless act, and sacrifice herself to bring those she had slaughtered, back to life. But she was not allowed to do that. D'Hoffryn twisted and manipulated her, and instead, Anya was not allowed to feel any better, or at peace. Instead, a close friend of hers was killed in her place. Which was a cruel slap in the face. And will now force her to find her way in the world.
I haven't even gotten into how perfectly Anya, Willow, and Spike's plights were paralleled in this episode, and I'm not going to, since it's getting late, and I'll save that for after I've let the episode fully sink in and I've rewatched it a couple more times.
But Anya is such a rich, complex, rewarding character, and I am so pleased that she has finally returned to being a human, although, again, it was forced on her. She always had tried to blend in immediately to a new situation, by clinging to someone. In the third season, that someone was Xander. I hope that someday they are lead back to each other, but after seeing this episode, I think it's good that, for at least a while, Anya stand on her own two feet and realize she doesn't need to be "Mrs." anybody. She has a lot of adjustment to do, as do all of the characters on the show this year, and this is definitely not the right time for her and Xander to reunite. Although the ending might seem like this will never happen, I still have hope. And with the "beneath you, it devour" hellmouth teeth thingy brewing, perhaps they will be pushed back together sooner than either of them would imagine.
Rob
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What's In a Name? MAJOR 7.5 spoilage; general season 7 spoilers) -- Age, 21:56:25 10/22/02 Tue
I wonder if the name Any/anka is made up of two words, 'any, 'anchor' to express Anya's lack of identity, like a ship drifting on the sea, and her clinging to another, like the grounding any anchor would provide?
Age.
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but is she? (spoilers for selfless) -- anom, 23:06:16 10/22/02 Tue
"But Anya is such a rich, complex, rewarding character, and I am so pleased that she has finally returned to being a human, although, again, it was forced on her."
Human, that is? I didn't see any sign of that. It wasn't part of what she wished for. She still had human emotions, but that wasn't a change--they'd been there her whole 2nd go-round as a vengeance demon. In fact, I think it's more interesting if she hasn't gone back to being human again.
...which brings up something I've been wondering for some time now: why can't Anya smash her own pendant, undo all the vengeance spells she's done in round 2, & become human again?
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The reason...(7.5 and 7.2 spoilers) -- Rob, 23:19:44 10/22/02 Tue
...she can't just smash the pendant is that it will undo the spells, but it won't undo the deaths that she is so guilty about. The only reason the deaths were reversed in "The Wish" is that the entire timeline was rewritten. This is a different case. She could take back the spell on Ronnie in "Beneath You" b/c she had merely transformed him into something else. She can't reverse the 12 deaths caused by the spider, though. So smashing the pendant would be futile to her. It wouldn't alleviate her guilt, so she continues to try to justify her actions...and later, be willing to die for them.
Rob
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I still think STSP was trash -- CaptainPugwash, 03:10:01 10/23/02 Wed
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You expressed it very well! Woohoo! Drew Goddard is in da house! -- ponygirl, 06:22:05 10/23/02 Wed
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"Self less" and Selfless and the Gift (Spoilers, "Selfless" -- Rahael, 07:15:29 10/23/02 Wed
Just a quick point - did Anya finally achieve a true sense of purpose, of self when she surrendered everything and stopped searching for new identities and costumes?
Just as Buffy achieved her moment of apotheosis when she let go of the world and herself.
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I hope so! -- Rob, 07:26:24 10/23/02 Wed
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Re: "Self less" and Selfless and the Gift (Spoilers, "Selfless" -- ponygirl, 07:51:46 10/23/02 Wed
I don't think she has achieved this yet, but she seemed to realize that finding a true self should be her goal. She was still uncertain enough to ask Xander if there might not be anything to her, but strong enough to let him walk away and then turn and walk alone in the opposite direction. Anya is on the path, I think it's going to take her a while to find out who she is, but she's made a start.
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Yes absolutely - re making a start (Spoilers for C.S Lewis, Dawn Treader) -- Rahael, 16:12:43 10/23/02 Wed
Wasn't this the lesson of the Gift? it's not the end, it's only the beginning, dawn follows night.
As for "true self", that's always a concept I have a problem with, but that's a discussion which ended a while back. It reminds me of Edmund in C.S. Lewis' "Voyage of the Dawn Treader", where Edumnd in his newly acquired dragon form has his skin ripped again and again from him until he becomes Edmund again.
I don't know if inside the dragon there lurks the little boy, waiting to be discovered, though I can see how its an appealing idea/metaphor. But I prefer the "we are what we are", emphasis on the present tense rather than the past, which has a much more self accepting ring about it. Can we go back to a better truer us?
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Ooh! You just referenced my favorite book, as a child! -- Rob, 18:50:47 10/23/02 Wed
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Re:thine own self (Spoilers for 7.5) -- ponygirl, 19:09:39 10/23/02 Wed
Yes, I've never liked the idea that there is an unchanging "true self". When does this self form? Does it make real lasting change impossible? It's depressing to think of a character, or a person, forever defined in any way. I prefer the containing multitudes approach, where the goal is integration not a stripping away of the experiences that life has given us.
It was interesting though in Selfless that Anya, or Aud, was very similar in manner to the Anya we are familar with, right down to the "strangely literal" manner and difficulty in connecting with other people. Showing that problems/quirks that had been passed off as a result of being newly human were actually longer lasting issues. Maybe the "true self" is the sum of all the problems we refuse to face, but keep buried within. Or beneath.
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Re: I love origin episodes. (Spoilers for Selfless and the Russian Revolution) -- JBone, 21:21:42 10/22/02 Tue
I just love origin episodes. Becoming Part I, Fool For Love, and AtS's Darla, are some of my favorite episodes mainly for the before picture. And now Selfless is right up there with them. With the bunny loving, altruistic Aud (Audi?). Which makes you wonder why Olaf calls her Anyanka in Triangle. And Olaf's pre-spell troll troubles and habit of describing women as Baltic. The villagers accusing the troll of doing a Olaf impression really had me laughing. Bar matrons must of changed a lot over the years, because they are not ALL load bearing anymore. Communist Anyanka was a bit of a surprise, so I enjoyed that. Halfrek really looked like Cecily in that scene, which makes you wonder if we'll ever find out how she and William knew each other. Is that a loose thread that will never be addressed again?
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Re: I love origin episodes. (Spoilers for Selfless and the Russian Revolution) -- Rob, 23:09:15 10/22/02 Tue
"With the bunny loving, altruistic Aud (Audi?). Which makes you wonder why Olaf calls her Anyanka in Triangle."
And here we are with the nitpicky! lol
Yeah, you could possibly see this as a tiny glitch, but it's easily fixable. Olaf, in "Triangle" is aware that Aud has become a demon. He's been a troll for a long time up until "Triangle," so it stands to reason that he could have found out what Aud is calling herself now, and thus addresses her as that, perhaps meaning to cruelly mock her, since now she is no longer a demon and he can have his revenge.
Rob
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Easily the best episode of this season so far IMO -- Etrangere, 07:02:21 10/23/02 Wed
Grrr Arghhh Buffy is sooo cold -- genivive, 19:28:37 10/22/02 Tue
How can she be so indifferent to Spike's suffering? I don't like her much any more
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Okay (Selfless spoiler) -- Apophis, 19:31:39 10/22/02 Tue
I think that the point of the Spike/Buffy scene was to show that she was not unsympathetic. She's trying to get him to help himself, which is the only way he'll get better.
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Re: Okay (Selfless spoiler) -- genivive, 19:36:20 10/22/02 Tue
Willow came home and Buffy offered her her home, forgiveness and her strength. Spike after putting himself through what he did gets the cold tone and the basement of creepie crawlies. Why hasn't she taken him in?
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She doesn't like him a whole lot -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:41:26 10/22/02 Tue
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Re: Okay (Selfless spoiler) -- Apophis, 19:44:00 10/22/02 Tue
Perhaps the reason Buffy hasn't taken Spike into her home is that every time she looks at him, she sees a man who tried to rape her. I wouldn't know, but I understand that that sort of thing stays with a person for a while. Besides, Willow lived at Buffy's house before her... episode. Spike took care of himself.
Another point: Spike can hurt Buffy. Perhaps he has a particularly vivid hallucination and kills her in her sleep whilst staying in her house?
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Re: Okay (Selfless spoiler) -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:50:26 10/22/02 Tue
Willow is gradually reclaiming the role she had before she went evil. Spike being treated tenderly and like a friend by Buffy would be ascending to a level of relationship/friendship that he never had before, so that's not as easy. Plus, Buffy very much likes Willow. At most, Buffy *sometimes* liked Spike. Helping/forgiving someone you don't really like is a LOT more difficult.
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Re: Okay (Selfless spoiler) -- vh, 06:30:08 10/23/02 Wed
Let's see. Willow and Buffy have been friends ever since Buffy came to Sunnydale. Buffy wasn't her target when Willow went all veiny, nor was she in any way responsible for the events that set Willow off. Meanwhile, Buffy hasn't had that relationship with Spike, and she feels greatly responsible for what happened to him. No wonder she doesn't feel comfortable around him. That doesn't mean she's necessarily laudable in her behavior, just understandable.
Now, let me go a little further. Unfortunately I have family members who have/have had mental illness and let me tell you, even when it's someone that you love dearly, it's extremely difficult to face someone who behaves out of the character that you've come to expect from them. It would be so much easier to turn away -- it's a huge temptation. You have to deal, but I can think of few things harder.
We've seen what Spike has gone through, but, remember, Buffy hasn't seen all Spike's private struggles. And if she had, she'd probably feel even more guilt, which would make it all the more difficult for her to face him (if it's guilt that is bothering her, that is). She's used to seeing him swagger and act confident, trade her taunt for taunt. This is not the Spike she sees now. This side of Spike really isn't that much of a stretch for us, who have seen his private pain, but Buffy has not allowed him to share that side of himself with her. I don't think she wants to feel sympathy for him, another ensouled, tormented vampire. Look how much that hurt her the first time through.
Oh well, rambling now. I'll let you go.
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Please explain -- Traveler, 19:47:07 10/22/02 Tue
She told him to get out of the basement, when he obviously has difficulty even caring for himself. Please explain how she has his best interests in mind. Also, I didn't see much in the way of sympathy on her face--just more eye rolling. I don't hate Buffy as a character, but she has always treated Spike like dirt, and this fact has simply remained consistant in season seven.
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("Selfless" SPOILERS above) -- Traveler, 19:49:03 10/22/02 Tue
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Re: Please explain -- DEN, 19:53:51 10/22/02 Tue
I think "comfort Buffy " and the Leather Queen were both Spike's hallucinations.
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Re: I second that notion (NT) -- Valkyrie, 20:00:21 10/22/02 Tue
Each manifestation seemed to be extreme in appearance and manner, and neither seemed "real" to me.
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Re: Actually, there is a wee bit of text above... -- Valkyrie, 20:02:35 10/22/02 Tue
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Re: I second that notion (NT) -- Purple Tulip, 20:08:12 10/22/02 Tue
I think you could be on to something there, but wasn't Buffy wearing the same outfit (the black one) in both the hallucination and when she was hunting the spider demon?
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Re: Sorry- above is not NT -- Purple Tulip, 20:09:43 10/22/02 Tue
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I'll go with that, too -- Apophis, 20:22:04 10/22/02 Tue
There, now no one can be mad at me.
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Hmm... -- Traveler, 20:37:51 10/22/02 Tue
I did notice that the two Buffys were polar opposites of each other. White for hope, black for despair. If she was a hallucination both times, it's interesting that Spike's behavior also changed for each visit. The first time, he was eloquent and thoughtful. The second, he could barely put together a sentence. That's the main reason why I thought the second visit was really her. If not, I wonder what that says about Spike and his delusions?
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Re: Hmm... -- Dariel, 21:28:45 10/22/02 Tue
Some people have speculated that Spike had an emotionally abusive mother. Dressed-in-black Buffy certainly reminded me of an unpleasant parent.
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Leather Queen LOL! -- Sometime Lurker, 22:07:10 10/22/02 Tue
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Re: Please explain -- vh, 06:13:47 10/23/02 Wed
Actually, wasn't 2nd Buffy wearing what real Buffy was wearing?
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Bah!!! -- Corwin of Amber, 20:39:36 10/22/02 Tue
Ok, how much sympathy is Buffy supposed to have for someone who tried to rape her? I think she's doing FAR FAR BETTER than most people in that weird situation would.
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Re: Bah!!! -- Miss Edith, 02:07:56 10/23/02 Wed
Buffy has been through many tough experiences. She had sympathy for Angel the man who mentally tortured her. He stalked her at night in her bedroom and made threats on her mothers life. He killed Jenny and smirked at Buffy's grief (spying through the window). He also tortured her watcher.
Willow tried to bring about the end of the world. She gleefully threatened Dawn life as well as challenging Buffy to a fight, "This is a big day for me...I get to be the slayer". She tortured Giles by bouncing him of the ceiling etc. Buffy now has an unstable Willow living in her house with Dawn, despite of the fact Willow is still using black magic and is not fully in control of herself.
I am not trying to compare Spike to others in order to justify his behaviour when unsouled. I am simply trying to make the point that Buffy has always taken a pragmatic view towards those who hurt her. Spike had made many attempts on her life in previous seasons and she was able to have sex with him. I'm not going to make any judgments about Buffy's behaviour in Selfless because I think the writers are going somewhere with it. I am not even sure who was the real Buffy in the basement. Both could have been hallucinations or she could have been split into two versions as Xander was in The Replacement so she has her compassionate human side and her slayer side.
The problem is ME bringing a real world plot into the show like rape which was something I never agreed with. The negative consequences mean that we cannot separate it as part of a fantasy show as we do normally. But I will say that I don't think we can dismiss Buffy's current attitude to Spike as acceptable because of the attempted rape and how vulnerable "most people in that weird situation" would feel. JMO but I think there's more going on there.
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I agree with Miss Edith-- -- Dyna, 09:01:18 10/23/02 Wed
I think we're supposed to be feeling that something's "off" in Buffy in this episode. I also believe they're going somewhere with this. The "scary" music that came on when the real Buffy appeared (I think the black Buffy is the real Buffy--unless Spike is able to hallucinate the exact same outfit she was wearing at school that day) seemed like a clue to me. It certainly made me feel foreboding.
Side note, clearly this is not a case of Buffy "having to" face Spike when she doesn't want to. She has no reason to go down there except to harangue him--"You've got a soul? Show me!" So I really don't think we can write this off as just Buffy's reaction to having to see the person who attempted to rape her. If she has a problem with that, she could solve it by just not going to the basement. There's no need here, no clear motivation for her going. If it's to show compassion or "help," why the hostile, angry tone? It's like she's spoiling for a fight or something.
I also think Buffy's callous response to the deaths of the frat guys --when she suddenly switches from "how many? hearts torn right out? etc" to "so, did you get that class you wanted?"--is not intended entirely as comedy. Buffy's holding something in, I think. I've posted recently about Buffy's behavior in "Help" ("a history of heart irregularities", just moved to the archive) and I think this episode carries forward the idea that Buffy is reacting to some deep fears and issues, and that her surface appearance of coldness or callousness at times may be a reaction to her fears. I can't wait to see how this unfolds.
First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Sophie, 19:45:27 10/22/02 Tue
Shouldn't someone who is 1000 years old be, uh, shorter?
Anya's Scandinavian?
Does Aud sound like Odd?
Spike and Buffy scene - what was real? Was anything real? Was the first Buffy real? Or the second? Or both? Or neither?
Anya - MacBeth -
Blood on her hands
Blood on her gloves
Buffy -"I killed Angel"
The slayer is the law.
Why does Anyanka stay and fight? (with Buffy)
Buffy was the Slayer - full-time, no longer part anything else, like we saw Kendra was the slayer and nothing else. This is the first time that we have seen Buffy be the Slayer.
Like "Lessons", the episode was so powerful that it just left me cold, raw, and staring at the wall.
Just my thoughts and first impressions of the episode.
Sophie
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My answers - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Traveler, 20:00:23 10/22/02 Tue
"Why does Anyanka stay and fight? (with Buffy)"
I think Anya might have had a death wish. She seemed almost eager to give D' Hoffrin her life. That would also explain why he chose not to kill her.
"Spike and Buffy scene - what was real? Was anything real? Was the first Buffy real? Or the second? Or both? Or neither?"
It seems more likely that the second scene was real and the first was Spike's fantasy.
Buffy -"I killed Angel"
I'm so glad they had this scene. It seems like she's barely even mentioned Angel since he moved to WB. Nice to have the continuity.
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Re: My answers - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Deeva, 21:35:30 10/22/02 Tue
It was also nice to know that Buffy eventually found out about Xander's little deception on what Willow's real message was. And that Willow was there to say that as well.
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Re: I must disagree - Buffy had no clue what Willow's remark meant in 7.5. Spoilers Abound. -- Angelina, 07:39:31 10/23/02 Wed
I don't think Buffy had a clue as to what Willow's remark "I never said that" meant in last night's episode. It simply didn't register. Yet. But this will surely come up again, and Xander is going to have to finally answer for this particular deception. He totally betrayed Buffy in Season 2, when he didn't relay Willow's true intent to bring back Angel's soul. He knowingly paved the way to Buffy murdering the man she loved. Once Buffy finds out the extent of this deception, she is going to have to make a choice to forgive Xander...perhaps this will be the precursor to her forgiving Spike? I have to watch this episode again, but I really did love the job Emma did. She was awesome. I am beginning to understand Buffy's behavior , somewhat. I think the next episode "Him" might be about her and Spike? I hope so. I really want Spike out of the fricking basement!
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Willow's remark -- Deeva, 09:03:48 10/23/02 Wed
I'm not saying that Buffy caught Willow's remark, merely that I liked that Willow was there to say it.
I find it interesting that Buffy's own words are "I killed Angel". When it is very clear that she did not kill him but sacrifice him for the greater good. Maybe I missed it when Giles was trying to get Buffy to spill about what actually happened between her and Angel in Becoming but I didn't catch that she had said she thought she killed him.
Yeah, it's time for Spike to move on up and outta the basement. Buffy's right about how it's not a good place for him.
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Buffy believed she'd killed Angel -- Scroll, 09:40:52 10/23/02 Wed
In "Faith, Hope, and Trick", Giles gets Buffy to confess what really happened with Angelus in "Becoming II".
From Psyche's transcripts:
Buffy: Angel was cured.
Giles: (looks up) I'm sorry?
Buffy: When I killed him, Angel was cured. (to Willow) Your spell worked at the last minute, Will. I was about to take him out, and, um... something went through him... and he was Angel again. He-he didn't remember anything that he'd done. He just held me. Um, but i-it was... it was too late, and I, I had to. So I told him that I loved him... and I kissed him... and I killed him."
I guess we have to remember that as far as Buffy, Giles, and the others knew, getting sent to Hell was pretty much equivalent to dying. There was absolutely no precedent for someone escaping the Acathla hell dimension. In fact, it took either an act of the Powers That Be or an act of the First Evil to free Angel from Hell. So for Buffy, sticking a sword through Angel = killing him, IMO. In "The Gift", Buffy also uses the words "killed Angel" when comparing what she felt for him and what she had to do with what she was facing with Dawn.
I'm so glad ME has finally brought up Xander's lie. While I'm not going to say Xander was being *only* selfish and petty when he lied, I do think this issue needs to be addressed and I hope Willow gives him a good reaming for not giving Buffy her message.
As for Spike, yeah, he needs to get out of the basement!
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Re: Let's not dismiss the possibility of the power of love to bring Angel back -- Brian, 10:58:00 10/23/02 Wed
After all, it appeared that the ring Angel had given Buffy was the trigger that brought him back from hell, not the PTB or the 1st Evil.
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Cuz all you need is love, love, love... -- Deeva, carrying on tunelessly, 11:22:21 10/23/02 Wed
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To this day... -- Masq, 12:18:19 10/23/02 Wed
All three theories remain open. Although Angel believes it was the PTB (forget the quote from "In the Dark", AtS 1.3)
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What if it was both of them ? -- Etrangere, 12:54:52 10/23/02 Wed
Like... what if they both agreed that they needed him because of the prophecy about a vampire with a soul being a deciding factor at a crucial apocalyptical moment, yet we do not know if that would be at the side of good, or at the side of evil ?
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Re: I must disagree more about history -- JBone, 18:32:11 10/23/02 Wed
I've been arguing this since it happened, so I might as well continue. The worst thing that Xander did in regards to that lie was not tell Buffy the truth afterwards. Once he found out that Willow's spell worked against all odds and Angelus's soul was restored after all.
He totally betrayed Buffy in Season 2, when he didn't relay Willow's true intent to bring back Angel's soul. He knowingly paved the way to Buffy murdering the man she loved.
He betrayed Willow, not Buffy. And if he paved anything it was for Buffy to kill Angelus. Xander had absolutely no reason to believe that the spell that Willow was trying to do would work. She had never done one before, and her only previous attempt was a total failure. Did he really want to send Buffy into the fight of her life, holding onto some kind of false hope that wouldn't only get her killed, but cause the end of human life on Earth?
Frankly I don't believe that if Xander had told the truth about Willow's intentions, it would have made a damn bit of difference in the actual outcome of that night. But he should have come clean later, especially after he found out that Angel somehow returned. I can even understand why he didn't then, but that doesn't make it right.
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First Impressions (7.5 spoilers) -- darrenK, 20:10:50 10/22/02 Tue
Wow, what a dense episode. Don't they usually reserve episodes like that for Sweeps? I thought that they never killed characters except at Sweeps.
And so hermetic. If you hadn't watched every Buffy episode since Becoming 2 you could forget having any idea what was going on.
Dawn's speech to Willow is very important to the episode. It's all about fitting in and how you get an identity and that's Anya's struggle.
Who is she? Is she Aud? Anyanka? Anya?
I love the fact that Aud has no fear of Bunnies and she wants to give them away. Anyanka the Vengeance Demon turns out to be a communist. Anya is a capitalist through and through and American as the Fourth of July.
How 'bout the 2 second return of Darth Rosenberg. Looks like we'll be seeing her again.
I always thought D'Hoffryn seemed too nice. Glad to see what his horns are for.
The scenes in Swedish (or was it Gibberish?) were too funny. I nearly keeled over.
So if this is pre-sweeps, what could they be saving?
dK
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Kara, 20:15:26 10/22/02 Tue
Why does Anya fight?
I think it goes beyond her having a death wish, but that she feels like she needs to be punished for what she did because she knows that it was wrong. She fights Buffy because of course her first instinct is to survive and not die.
Spike and Buffy scene - what was real? Was anything real? Was the first Buffy real? Or the second? Or both? Or neither?
I think the way they did the scene really leaves this question open to interpretation. There's really nothing in this esp. that concretely supports any of the possibilities, but my own suspicion says that neither was real, but it's just my opinion.
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- JBone, 20:20:18 10/22/02 Tue
Why does Anyanka stay and fight?
I think that this is Anya trying to be a vengeance demon. If she can do enough evil, hurt enough people, maybe she can get into that comfort zone that she was in for a thousand years. It's not until D'Hoffryn arrives that she recognizes an alternative. Then she is ready to stop, and end it all. Plus, I don't think she would have minded if she lost to Buffy and died that way. The signature line for me in this Anya-centric episode was when she told Xander "I'm not sure there is a me to help". I'm going on memory for that, so it might not be totally accurate.
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- astrid, 00:30:09 10/23/02 Wed
Why does Anyanka stay and fight?
I think that this is Anya trying to be a vengeance demon. If she can do enough evil, hurt enough people, maybe she can get into that comfort zone that she was in for a thousand years.
I think she fights because she knows Buffy won't fight someone who doesn't fight back. And she wants to fight. She seems to want - at least in part - to lose. She feels terrible, and she feels like she needs pay for what she's done. She's seen Buffy whip ass against impossible odds many times before, it's not unreasonable to think that she would believe Buffy capable of killing her in a fight.
Although Buffy might kill a friend in a fight if she felt it was necessary, it's a whole other matter when the friend is sitting there unresisting. Anya knows this. (Plus, I think Anya is a bit conflicted about her motives herself; she wants to pay but she also sort of feels like she was doing what she was supposed to do. She's confused and a bit self-destructive, but not wholly suicidal.)
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Cheryl, 20:21:56 10/22/02 Tue
I think the way they did the scene really leaves this question open to interpretation. There's really nothing in this esp. that concretely supports any of the possibilities, but my own suspicion says that neither was real, but it's just my opinion.
I'll have to rewatch, but I thought Buffy's black outfit in the "second" Spike scene, was the same outfit she was wearing later - making me think that was really Buffy.
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Yoda, 20:40:37 10/22/02 Tue
But the hair was the same on both. Notice the braid. If the Buffy in white was a hallucination how did Spike know that Buffy would wear her hair that way? But the Buffy in black is shown later with the same hair style. So that one must be real. Or maybe they are both real just alternate reality Buffy's? Spike being able somehow to walk in both worlds? Like he was able to see both Willow and Buffy/Xander/Dawn in Same Time Same Place. Maybe when Willow's resurrection spell was interrupted she only brought back Slayer Buffy to this reality and in another reality only human Buffy was returned. Somehow the alternate realities are merging and Spike is able to see both at the same time.
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Season 7 Comment (Slightly Spoilery) -- SableHart, 20:19:54 10/22/02 Tue
Selfless: A minor victory for B/A shippers?
Does anyone else notice the rehabilitation of Buffy's history with Angel this season? Last season it was the butt of jokes (Tabula Rasa) or snide comments (Spike commenting on vampire sex). This year, the writers seem to be treating their past relationship with a bit more respect or seriousness. I'm also really glad Xander's dirty little secret is out in the open. I'm amazed they brought it back: my jaw practically dropped when she said Angel's name. I bet the suits at UPN and the WB were having kittens over that one. Okay, I'm going to shut up now and stop showing how stuck in the past I truly am.
~SableHart
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Re: Season 7 Comment (Slightly Spoilery) -- Kara, 20:27:44 10/22/02 Tue
The writers are definitely making references back to the old B/A relationship which is great of them. Just to add, references are also in Angel as well. In the first esp. of Angel this season, Angel also mentions that in comparison with Buffy sending him to hell for, oh, i dunno, a hundred years, what connor did to him was really nothing.
I'm not sure where they're heading with this, but i'm hoping for possible cross-overs....
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- celticross, 20:30:13 10/22/02 Tue
Time for the me like, me not like review...
Me like:
The title. "Selfless" Anya doesn't have a self. Not when she was a demon the first time, not when she was with Xander, not now. Please don't hit me, X/A shippers, but for that reason only, I don't think they need to be back together. Not yet.
The flashback scenes, especially the Swedish ones. The subtitles were hilarious! And the contrast between first round demon Anya and second round demon Anya was made painfully obvious. Nice job Emma Caulfield. I really felt Anya's pain.
Never thought I'd say this, but it's nice to see the Scoobs disagreeing. One of my biggest gripes with last season was stated perfectly by Anya in Entropy, "We never SAY anything". Tonight the Buffy, Willow, and Xander were saying things to each other, voicing their differing opinions.
Me not like:
Spike's brief scene. Look, ME, quit with the shoehorning. I may love Spike, but if he doesn't have a place in the episode, he doesn't have to be in it. I know, I know, it's important that Buffy tell him he needs to get out the basement. But it was unconnected to the rest of the action in an excellent episode. Just didn't flow quite right.
Willow's brief burst of black-eyed meanness. It makes sense that doing a powerful magic in the heat of the moment might have her touching on something dark, but prior to EvilWillow at the end of S6, the dark magicks never affected her personality. It was a good touch that felt a little off.
Me say "hmmmmmmm..."
Poor Buffy. Being town sheriff (tm S'kat) is taking its toll. Must digest on her behavior in this episode some more.
Poor Buffy some more. As someone on the TabRas list pointed out, it's sad when a 21/22 year old girl (even one with a Slayer's projected lifespan) thinks her romantic glory days are over already. If the best she thinks she'll ever have is the pain and more pain with occasional spots of joy that was her relationship with Angel, I feel for her indeed.
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Sarand, 20:47:21 10/22/02 Tue
First impressions only. Pretty good episode. It kept me leaning forward, that's for sure. The best for me was when Xander finally got called on his lie in Becoming II. Of course, it's swept under the rug because the Angel thing all worked out in the end (what with him coming back with a soul and all) but still, I did like to see it. Yes, Aud sounded like Odd. That was funny, as was all the dialogue in ancient Sweden. I liked having an episode devoted to Anya's becoming a vengeance demon and her past. I don't know what to think about the Buffy/Spike scene. She asked him to prove he has a soul, right? That just seemed odd to me, after "Beneath You," but I guess she's asking the question the others are going to ask when they finally find out about it. So, how do you go about proving you have a soul? And speaking of souls, D'Hoffryn said that the price for taking back the vengeance Anya had inflicted was "a life and soul of a vengeance demon." Makes me say "Hmmm," about these souls, human and otherwise.
Okay, just first impressions. Not profound.
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Arethusa, 21:28:55 10/22/02 Tue
Loved the Bergmanesque filming of the flashbacks. (It's is like Ingmar Burgman's film, right? I've only seen a couple.) This time it's Anya's turn to ask Who Am I? Who Will I Become?
Buffy faces another Slayer Test: Will she kill a friend to save lives? The answer is yes, and we get a much needed and unusually frank, for the Scoobies, discussion about Buffy's ultimate responsibility for protecting the world and the pain killing and losing Angel caused her. And she's still not over his loss. And after all this time, Xander's lie is exposed-but maybe it got lost in the excitement.
It's ironic that Willow, who refused to accept her inner darkness, must now be eternally vigilant. She can barely control it. And Willow cheated on her finals? She really was evil!
First Joyce was walled up in the university in "Restless.". Now Spike's feeling walled up alive in the basements of Sunnydale High School. And the mice are tickling his knees.
Another very good episode. I felt uneasy disliking Help, but this episode reminds me what BtVS is all about-character development, poignant moments (Anya's song), action and one-liners, all made memorable by EC's portrayal of Anya' sense of loss and need. She just wanted something or someone to believe in, to give her a sense of identity. Communism, capitalism, vengeance and men all disappointed her, leaving her empty. She never learned what Buffy learned in Becoming-when everything else is taken away, she still has herself, and that should be enough.
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Amber, 21:47:17 10/22/02 Tue
>discussion about Buffy's ultimate responsibility for protecting the world and the pain killing and losing Angel caused her. And she's still not over his loss. And after all this time, Xander's lie is exposed-but maybe it got lost in the excitement.<
I don't think Xander's lie was lost in the excitement, especially if you see Willow's face when it's brought up. Also I think the important factor in that scene is not so much that Xander lied, but the fact that for the past 5 years Buffy has believed that Willow said, "kick Angel's ass."
I'm not sure what kind of repercussions exposing this lie now should have. (Though I absolutely loved the entire scene with all its references to Becoming II) The Scoobies have been through far worse things now and can Buffy really crack down on Xander for something he said when he was seventeen and facing only his second apocalypse?
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Yes, it might not change much. -- Arethusa, 09:53:30 10/23/02 Wed
Although Buffy might get very upset that she never knew she had the chance to spare herself and Angel a lot of pain. To me, that's the important part of the scene. Still, it wouldn't have changed their eventual fate-they would have still gone their separate ways. It's painful to realize that Buffy might never again find love.
The adult Scoobies are realizing that sometimes there is no Mr. Right for you, or that even if you love someone with all your heart, it doesn't mean that everything will work out. Anya and Xander both realized that this episode. Sometimes they die, or they don't love you in return, or they're looking for something in a relationship that you can't give them. Angel couldn't give Buffy a physical relationship (and so couldn't help her integrate her human and demon sides). Buffy couldn't give Spike love. Xander couldn't give Anya a sense of identity. Tara couldn't give Willow self-confidence. Each person has to find these things within him/herself instead of through someone else. Which is, of course, why Spike must drag himself out of the basement. Buffy can't give him peace of mind, or develop a balance between his soul and demon. She can't do that for herself; how can she do it for him? Sure, I would really like to see her help Spike more, but Spike's integration will be a life-long process, just as Angel's is.
My kids sometimes think I'm being impossibly cruel and cold when I could easily help them with a hard task and refuse to do so. But some things are supposed to be difficult. That's how we learn and grow.
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Re: First Impressions - Spoiler for 7.5 -- Deeva, 21:51:24 10/22/02 Tue
Very powerful episode.
I really liked the scene between Xander & Buffy. He needs to see where Buffy is coming from. How she has slowly gained shades of grey in her outlook. Where as he is primarily still black and white. With a blind eye cast towards his friends.
Buffy has finally thrown the words out there. It's great to have friends and support but ultimately in the end she is the only one that she can count on.
D'Hoffryn always seemed just a little too nice to be a patriarch (or was it patron?) of Vengeance demons. I really liked how he was supposedly this "bigger" lower being int he heirarchy of things but seemed to be like the Mr. Rodgers of demons. Didn't see that evil coming. Poor Hallie.
Anya. Anyanka. Aud. Who are you really? She was always a straight and forth right talker.
Was it just me or did the fact that Xander kept saying to Buffy that Anya was her friend just ring kind of hollow? In all this time I've never considered Anya and Buffy to be friends. Acquaintances, co-workers of sorts, but not really friends. Anya was pretty much involved with the Scoobiness because of Xander. I just don't see them (when everyone was on better terms) picking up the phone and just chatting.
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Anya and Buffy -- Darby, 08:00:38 10/23/02 Wed
Remember back when Riley was around, we got several scenes indicating that the two couples hung out a lot together - that would be enough for Buffy, who doesn't bond easily anyway, to consider Anya a friend. It's her perspective, after all.
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Re: Anya and Buffy -- Deeva, 08:31:47 10/23/02 Wed
And sometimes I forget that it is her perspective and that Buffy does have a hard time bonding. I was looking at it from my standpoint. I can make acquaintances very easily but who becomes a friend is something else.
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Re: Wasn't that something? Spoiler for 7.5 -- Sang, 03:18:45 10/23/02 Wed
Wheew... I am not so sure I really enjoyed this ep. It was so full of surprises. I was kind of exhausted after the ending.
So this is what Joss told us 'Back to the beginning'?
Buffy returned to Sunnydale High and slaying, but not as a naive innocent girl. But as a woman who was hardened by all that pains.
Willow returned to helping and caring friend but with all that dark urge and power and memories.
Xander returned as a dateless, funny guy. But he is not the boy he had been anymore.
Anya returned to demon self, but it was not as she thought.
Spike returned to 'former self' but 'good man William' is not there anymore. His soul cannot return his innocence. He has a good man's soul with memory of all evil doing.
Once a person passed times of life, one cannot return to what he/she were. Innocence, once lost, cannot recovered.
What S7 makes great so far was the experiences charactors (and also fans) had to endure in S6. They all changed since they all survived (well almost all). And we now are observing not only how deep these charactor became, but also how complex their relations to each other became after S6.
I slowly start to feel (if not understand) what Buffy is doing. Buffy became hard, since what she went through. Would this new Buffy hesitate to kill Angelous like the school girl Buffy? Maybe not.
Maybe that's why Buffy act as cold as possible toward Spike. She may not want her feeling controls her like to Angel, since she was thinking about a possibiltiy that she must kill Spike.
Was anyone suprised when Buffy told Xander that she was thinking about killing Anya before this incident?
Hearts and Walls, Spoilers for 7.5 -- LeeAnn, 20:26:05 10/22/02 Tue
There we go, with the hearts again.
Heart, Heart, Heart.
Last week Buffy failed and Cassie Newton died because of a failure of heart. This week the frat boys died because they were heartless, because they used people, because, to them, love was just a game. Like Buffy used Spike. Because they were heartless they had their hearts ripped out. Like Spike tried to rip his own heart out because, since he wasn't heartless, it hurt so much.
And Buffy stabbed Angel through the heart, it hurt so much, and Anya had forgotten how much swords through the chest (heart) hurt. But the spider demon couldn't rip Buffy's heart out because... she no longer has one?
Anya sings, "What's the point of loving, What's the point of losing your heart, maybe you're twice as tall and you're not losing at all."
Heart, heart, heart. And more and more, Buffy seems heartless. Again and again we're getting anvils about what happens to people who are heartless or have a failure of heart. And Buffy is heartless toward Spike, so can't use him to make herself twice as tall, and leaves him walled up in the basement. (The walls move, new walls, like the new wall built by Montresor in the Cask of Amontillado, trapping Fortunato in the basement forever. And Spike calls Buffy Montresor. So the walls Buffy builds to keep Spike out, trap him in the basement...forever?) She tells him to get out but we see no sign she helps him get out or helps find him any place else to go. If that Buffy was even real. Is a heartless Buffy a real Buffy? Did she come back wrong?
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Just curious... -- Apophis, 20:36:20 10/22/02 Tue
Does this count as bashing? I'm not clear on the definition.
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I would say no -- Traveler, 21:21:18 10/22/02 Tue
LeeAnn does have an anti-Buffy bias, but this post doesn't resort to name calling, and it attempts to establish an argument based on contextual evidence. She could have said, "Buffy is a heartless bitch." Instead, she said, "there are a lot of signs that point to Buffy being heartless." Maybe she meant the former statement, but what I read, at least, was the latter.
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So would I -- Malandanza, 08:05:11 10/23/02 Wed
"LeeAnn does have an anti-Buffy bias, but this post doesn't resort to name calling, and it attempts to establish an argument based on contextual evidence. She could have said, 'Buffy is a heartless bitch...' "
I agree -- criticisms supported by evidence (or interpretation of the evidence) should not be censored as bashing by the self-appointed propriety police of the board. If we cannot say anything negative at all about any character (except, of course, Warren) much of the debate would dry up -- after all, how many people would come here to read posts about how great all the characters are, all the time?
I don't, however, agree with LeeAnn's point about Buffy being heartless. In fact, I believe this episode showed that Buffy continues to sacrifice her happiness for her friends and former friends. In Season Six, she lies to her friends about being in Heaven to protect them, but in Selfless, she shows that she's been carrying around pain from Season Two when she thought her friends had cheered her on when she had to kill Angel. She has suffered on their behalf.
This season Buffy is much more comfortable with being a slayer than she has ever been. Not just because of her willingness to kill Anya so quickly (a far cry from her devotion to Dawn at the end of Season Five); she's treated the training exercises with Dawn as very real and, in general, has operated with an amazing efficiency (Xander was a little unnerved that Buffy could kill the spider demon so easily) and single-mindedness of purpose. Duty for Buffy has become her life (much as it was for Anya back during the Russian Revolution days) -- slaying is her job and her hobby. And to a certain extent, she has taken over Giles' utilitarian approach. Notice that Buffy looked to Willow for help before heading off to slay Anya, but Willow looked uneasy and shook her head. Buffy is left to do the dirty work alone. Buffy doesn't complain or ask her friends to share her burden -- she heads off to do her duty.
Avoidance Buffy is still there. She doesn't want to deal with Spike, but torn between duty and avoidance, we end up with the basement scenes. She knows that Spike needs to be out of the basement, one way or another. Buffy reveals that she had been considering killing Anya for quite some time -- but waited until the evidence compelled her to take action because she has a personal attachment to Anya. Similarly, it must be in Buffy's mind (even if Xander hadn't put it there) that she must kill Spike if he proves a threat (he showed he could injure humans in spite of the pain thanks to his newfound insanity). Buffy was willing to kill Anya in spite of her past assistance (while a demon) with no ulterior motives -- there was no personal benefit for Anya to help the Scoobies last season and many reasons for not helping them (and she is punished for being a good guy). Duty brings her to Spike but denial takes her away before she has found the answers she really doesn't want to know. She has a responsibility to make certain that Spike cannot hurt the children in SHS, but her emotional attachments and emotional damage make her shirk her duty and flee.
I do think that Spike is a different person now -- and Agree with LeeAnn that there are three entities fighting for control. Spike (vampire demon with human memories), William (the souled entity plus vampire memories) and an outside force that seeks to control him (which, I believe, is the First Evil). It is this third force that makes Spike dangerous. Thinking back to the FE, its powers were pretty limited. If Buffy could get Spike out of the basement, he'd have a chance to recover, but the longer Spike sits there, the more control the FE will have over him. I believe that Spike, in the thrall of the FE, was the one who placed the fetish in the school and I think he will continue to be the unconscious tool of the FE until he gets out of the basement and pulls himself together.
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Shaking my head here...... -- Rufus, 21:06:26 10/22/02 Tue
Everything translates out to Buffy being a bitch and Spike is perfect. You filter out anything negative about the character...such as he being a "mass murderer". You talk about heart but only seen to show any to Spike, there are more than one characters in this show, by ignoring that fact you miss out on so much, it's too bad.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- Amber, 21:29:42 10/22/02 Tue
Have to agree with Rufus here. Spike is a mass murderer and he tried to rape Buffy, right now she doesn't owe him any help.
That aside, I think Spike has to get himself out of the basement. (Like Xander had to get himself out of the basement after "Restless"?) Anyway, Spike is the one that has to find a way to live his undead life with a soul. It took Angel a long time, but he worked it out on his own. Buffy knows that. Hence, she's probably determined that this is a journey Spike has to make on his own.
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Ooh! Nice reference to Restless there! (And spoilers for "Selfless" in here) -- ZachsMind, 21:44:29 10/22/02 Tue
It's not Buffy that can lead Spike from the basement. Xander already knows how to do it. And Xander's actually the one who hates Spike the most.
Watching tonight's episode, I was overwhelmed with the times Xander has inadvertently caused suffering. He has no special powers himself, but in subtle ways he affects the others.
When Angel was off to stop Angeles from destroying the world, Xander was told by Willow to tell Buffy to buy her TIME so she could put Angel's soul back. Xander relayed the message incorrectly, saying to Buffy that Willow said, "kick his ass." This was a throwaway apparently at the time, but the issue came up again in tonight's episode. It's a mistake that Xander did, and he's never had to pay for that mistake. It's indirectly his fault that Buffy had to kill Angel, because Buffy didn't know there was any hope. She didn't know Willow was gonna try to put his soul back in him. HAD she known that, she might have been able to approach the dilemma differently. Things may have been different.
Also referenced in tonight's episode is something that happened last season. XANDER was the one to cause the musical episode to occur. It wasn't Dawn who invoked the talisman. It was Xander. And in tonight's episode, we see him murmuring in his sleep about how he just wanted a happy ending -- the reason he gave in "Once More With Feeling" as to why he invoked the music demon.
Xander was afraid that what he might become would cause more pain to Anya than being her groom. He ran away from the wedding because he was afraid of himself. This caused Anya to fall back on the only other thing in her life besides him that made her happy in the past. Her vengeance demon ways. However, now that she knows what it truly means to be human, the ramifications are worse than had Xander just said, "I do." Again, indirectly, Anya's present predicament is at least partly Xander's fault.
Then this episode, when Anya was ready to sacrifice herself so that she could undo the damage she had caused, Xander was the one to say, "isn't there an alternative?" Xander put into D'Hoffryn's head the thought that maybe Anya doesn't have to die. So Halfrek goes in Anya's place. Again, indirectly, this is Xander's fault.
Xander's gonna have to face the evil he has inadvertently caused, and realize that life is not black & white. It's not that he's good and Spike's evil. Though Spike's a vampire too, they are both technically human-like. There's good and bad in all of us. The potential is there. In Willow. In Anya. Even in Buffy. The fight is to use one's power to do good in the world, despite the temptation to do otherwise.
Xander's gotta face this and part of facing this is seeing Spike with new eyes. Eyes that would allow Xander to see a way of helping Spike. Something he shoulda been trying to do a long time ago, but he wasn't ready, because he can't see himself for what he truly is: morally fallible.
You can't save a drowning man if you don't know how to swim. Xander's gotta learn how to swim. Metaphorically speaking.
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Agree except for one point -- Scroll, 05:18:25 10/23/02 Wed
I doubt Xander saying "Isn't there an alternative?" gave D'Hoffryn the idea to kill Halfrek. D'H himself said that as a vengeance demon, it's routine to go for the big hurt instead of the kill. He probably already had Halfrek in mind the moment he offered to reverse the wish.
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Also... -- Sometime Lurker, 21:38:47 10/22/02 Tue
Spike was trying to cut out his SOUL. I've seen the whole heart thing tossed around a few times but even Masq went as far as to point out in the ep analysis that Spike was trying to cut out his SOUL. Although I initially understood and almost agreed with Xander's side of the argument at the house, Buffy proved quite clearly with "I killed Angel." that she hardly considers the stakes of killing an evil doing friend lightly. The Scoobies have a history of letting past emotions get in the way of handling baddies. A prime example of that was when Buffy took too long to kill Angel and it cost Jenny her life.
I think Buffy's solemn acceptance of her job as Slayer showed more growth and understanding of adult responsibility than we've seen in our heroine thus far. Xander is the heart of the gang, there is little to dispute that but the fact of the matter is that without a mind to balance things when needed, the heart can become very useless.
Take it and run folks, love to watch your minds work. :-)
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But... -- LeeAnn, 21:44:32 10/22/02 Tue
But Spike's soul serves the same function as his heart. It makes him feel (more). It makes him hurt (more). And thus Lurky returned his soul by placing his hand over Spike's heart. And so Spike tried to cut it out. Although Spike didn't really say what he was trying to cut out just "I tried to cut it out."
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Interesting observation about Spike & Riley -- ZachsMind, 21:50:54 10/22/02 Tue
Probably doesn't mean anything, but the place Spike was cutting in his chest to get "it" out was the same place that Riley had to cut in his own chest in order to get the chip out of him, so Adam no longer had control of him. Soon after Riley did that, Spike witnessed Riley do some strangely 'soulless' things, like fight his friends to avoid going back to the doctor when his body couldn't take the stress he was putting on it, or going to the bloodletting place and letting a whore vamp suck on his wrist. Maybe Spike thinks Riley's soul was in that place in his chest and so in his deranged state, that's where Spike chose to cut to try to find his own soul.
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Re: Lurky? O/T -- Amber, 21:52:44 10/22/02 Tue
Sorry, I know this is off topic, but Lurky? LOL Is that really the demon in the caves name, or just what you're calling him. Either way, I like it!
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Spike called him that once. -- Traveler, 21:54:59 10/22/02 Tue
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Re: Lurky? O/T -- LeeAnn, 21:59:36 10/22/02 Tue
I've heard the demon in the cave referred to as "Lurky McDemon" so many times, I've forgotten who started it.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- alcibiades, 21:48:29 10/22/02 Tue
Everything translates out to Buffy being a bitch
Yeah but one major, explicit point of the show was more or less that Buffy was being a bitch.
She's a bitch to Spike because he's making her confront the fact that Angel -- who she loved more than anyone -- and has seemingly never moved past, nor wants to, she's frozen in that moment she stuck the sword in him just as much as any vampire -- was far from the perfect thing she has recreated him to be, even in vampire terms. Spike has surpassed him. And she doesn't want to let go so she is holding on ever tighter and it's really on the surface of her mind so much that it pops out of her mouth though that is completely out of character for her.
And she was a bitch to Anya after having done seemingly nothing all summer but ignore Anya, despite the fact that Anya helped Buffy with Willow and as a consequence had her livelihood taken away from her -- she didn't try to help her in any way -- and now she can extend to her not one moment of patience, understanding, research, not even a call to Giles for suggestions or help -- but let's slay her quick and get it over with.
Okay what Anya did was atrocious -- but how about a talk with her to assess her emotional condition before you off her.
Even Xander thought she was being a bitch.
The real question is what the hell is going on and why is Buffy acting this way -- along with many other real questions.
-- but if LeeAnn has a visceral and immediate reaction to Spike's plight and not to Buffy's plight, I don't see why you should take her to task for her shortcomings. It's a POV. You might not appreciate it and find it less than objective but why the tsk...tsk.
In fact, I think that ME rather expected many audience members to be having a negative visceral reaction to Buffy, and that is why they let Anya beat her up a bit.
And btw, I didn't see any sign of Spike being a mass murderer in this episode.
Spike certainly started out a lot lower than Buffy, but the point is the journey and where you are headed, not the place you embark. Sometimes the place you embark and your reaction to it allows you to leapfrog over the heads of many people who have been working hard and long on their own path. That's a well recognized spiritual tenet.
At least Spike is honestly confronting his past -- not shirking it. He's looking it squarely in the face. Buffy is frozen into hers. And seemingly wants to keep it that way because it is easier.
Okay, the girl has the weight of the world on her shoulders.
But when it comes down to the fact that Buffy would rather slay her former friend than think of an alternative because that way the problem is solved immediately -- and Buffy has the power -- she's the law, she better start thawing out because otherwise the world is in trouble.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- Rufus, 22:21:06 10/22/02 Tue
And btw, I didn't see any sign of Spike being a mass murderer in this episode.
I guess that's because all the victims no longer have a voice. We get to feel Spikes pain, Spikes feelings of loneliness, but I wonder how the families of all the people he killed over the years felt about their loss.
I like Spike but to see every move of Buffy's as being heartless is missing the point that there is a reason for much of what Buffy does, and little point to all the carnage Spike caused.
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Oh really? -- Traveler, 22:31:15 10/22/02 Tue
I don't think that Buffy is treating Spike the way she is out of sympathy for all those poor families she's never met or even mentioned. Also, I think it is pretty obvious even to Buffy that Spike is a different man from the one who killed those families. Furthermore, having a reason for acting in a particular way doesn't make it right. Even evil!Spike had reasons for killing people. Yes, that reason was often that he was bored....
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Re: Oh really? -- Rufus, 22:39:30 10/22/02 Tue
I'll pencil that one in......bored? kill everything that moves just to see them scream.
Buffy does realize that Spike isn't exactly what he once was but that brings her back to season two, and a loss she never recovered from. Angel. Until she deals with that relationship she will never be able to directly help Spike in a meaningful way.
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So you agree then? -- Traveler, 22:51:15 10/22/02 Tue
"she never recovered from. Angel. Until she deals with that relationship she will never be able to directly help Spike in a meaningful way."
Maybe not, and I don't blame her for that, but it doesn't make her actions right. After all, those frat boys died as a result of Anya's inability to deal with her relationship with Xander.
"I'll pencil that one in......bored? kill everything that moves just to see them scream."
Are you deliberately missing my point? Just because someone has a reason for their actions doesn't make it a good reason.
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Re: So you agree then? -- Rufus, 22:57:09 10/22/02 Tue
Maybe not, and I don't blame her for that, but it doesn't make her actions right. After all, those frat boys died as a result of Anya's inability to deal with her relationship with Xander.
I don't remember giving Buffy high points for being a diplomat, but I do give her points for not killing Spike on sight. I'm glad the show has returned more to the metaphor as their journey into reality wasn't profitable. You keep forgetting that I've written very favorably about Spike for years, but I won't constantly call down other characters to make him look good. I already wrote a post tonight that should give more than a few hints about why we are seeing what we are now and what it may mean to the storyline. Some people only see the show for one character, I do not. I realize that a show devoted to Spike only would become very boring very fast. For Spike to transcend the basement, he doesn't have to do it at the expense of everyone around him. His character is evolving but so are all the others.
"I'll pencil that one in......bored? kill everything that moves just to see them scream."
You did miss the sarcasm didn't you.
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Sigh... hopefully my last post on this mini thread. -- Traveler, 23:42:11 10/22/02 Tue
"You keep forgetting that I've written very favorably about Spike for years, but I won't constantly call down other characters to make him look good. "
Well, it would be pretty arrogant to assume that all these posters are criticizing Buffy just because they want to make Spike look better. Personally, I say that Buffy has been behaving coldly towards him because that is what I see. I'm not saying that she never shows any sympathy toward him, but judging by her actions overall, she doesn't seem to care very much about him. She doesn't visit him often. She doesn't say nice things to him. She doesn't talk to him for very long when she does see him. In short, she hasn't done anything at all to even try to help him. I am not saying she doesn't really care about him deep down, oh spoiled one, but she certainly hasn't done much to show it if she does. On the other hand, if Buffy really doesn't give a crap about him, simple human decency would prompt her to leave him alone so long as he doesn't harm people, but she doesn't do that either.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- alcibiades, 22:43:57 10/22/02 Tue
Me:
And btw, I didn't see any sign of Spike being a mass murderer in this episode.
Rufus:
I guess that's because all the victims no longer have a voice. We get to feel Spikes pain, Spikes feelings of loneliness, but I wonder how the families of all the people he killed over the years felt about their loss.
But we do the same thing with Angel, no. And always did -- unless you see Angel through the Xander/Connor perspective. I mean, it is kind of hard to watch the show if you are visualizing all the screaming voices of either Spike or Angel's victims all the time. Moreover, Spike's past doesn't justify other peoples behaviour to him now.
In the episode of BY that was not aired, Spike admits that he murdered for kicks and it is terribly clear he is having a horrible time assimilating that knowledge about himself.
Anne was on FX tonight and buffy more or less froze herself off near hell for months after she killed Angel, eventually descending into a hell portal and re-ascending. And it was the intrusion of Lily, needing help, human, fallible, needy, demanding and thoroughly unwanted by Buffy who motivated her to move beyond hell.
Buffy had a loving home to return to. Spike has nowhere but the hellmouth himself
But give Spike time, he'll get there.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- Rufus, 22:35:15 10/22/02 Tue
At least Spike is honestly confronting his past -- not shirking it. He's looking it squarely in the face. Buffy is frozen into hers. And seemingly wants to keep it that way because it is easier.
I don't think Spike is doing much more than try to figure out what is real and what is a dream. I don't think he will be able to honestly confront much of anything while in a catatonic clench in that basement. Buffy may have been on the chilly side, but in the end she told Spike what he needed to hear.....and he told her one truth she didn't realize...he has no where to go.....that I feel will be dealt with...if Buffy was such a bitch she would leave him to shrivel in that basement but she keeps going back to him....what a bitch(you do know I'm kidding I hope).
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Barking up the wrong tree here. (spoilers) -- Traveler, 22:43:29 10/22/02 Tue
"if Buffy was such a bitch she would leave him to shrivel in that basement but she keeps going back to him....what a bitch(you do know I'm kidding I hope)."
You aren't going to convince most people that she visits Spike because she cares about him. Every time she has come to see him, she wanted something. If she really gave a crap, she would help him find a better place to live, not just kick him out.
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Re: Barking up the wrong tree here. (spoilers) -- Rufus, 22:50:05 10/22/02 Tue
I didn't notice Buffy kicking Spike out of anywhere. And as I'm very spoiled I will shut up about the rest of it.
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Err... now I'm confused. -- Traveler, 22:56:33 10/22/02 Tue
Didn't Buffy tell Spike to get out of the basement? That could be a deliberate misdirection, but so far as we (the unspoiled) viewers know, this was her kicking him out.
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Re: Err... now I'm confused. -- Rufus, 22:59:43 10/22/02 Tue
Hmmmm I only saw the last bit as Buffy got to absorb that simple truth....."I have no where else to go."....the rest would be a spoiler, but she started by telling him to leave the basement for his own good, this still under the assumption that she was dealing with the Spike who always landed on his feet.....she is only just beginning to comprehend that he is now more than meets the eye....also factor in the AR and she just isn't quite ready to trust him yet.
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Re: Err... now I'm confused. -- Miss Edith, 02:45:02 10/23/02 Wed
I think people are arguing against the view that Buffy was showing compassion in looking out for Spike and was genuinely concerned about helping him deal with his new soul and leave the basement. My impression from the Spikefeed is that she was cold with Spike and only there because she is worried he might do something to the schoolkids. A valid concern as he seems unable to figure out which Buffy is real and the big bad could conceivably manipulate him into believing in a false Buffy and corrupting his behaviour.
Buffy is there to make sure the kids are safe and the unstable vampire is not being driven more insane and putting them at risk. It is Buffy's duty to make sure demons are either killed or safely neatured which is why she is there. Previously she had visited Spike for assistance and she has never visited him because she is concerned for him. I just get the impression that she is there because she is the slayer and feels obligated in making sure Spike does not go over the edge and cause harm to others. I agree that people calling Buffy a bitch are taking things to far especially as we don't yet know if either Buffy was real. But I don't agree with the view that you seem to hold that Buffy is there for Spike's own good and she was not heartless. I personally believe if the Buffy in black was the real Buffy that the claim that she was heartless in dealing with Spike is a valid one. I am not expecting her to become emotionally involved with Spike but the impression I am getting is that she is being very cold and lacking the humanity that we saw in BY when she wept for Spike's pain. I think the discrepancy in Buffy's behaviour is certainly worth discussing. We don't even know as yet which is the real Buffy.
In Lessons and BY she did have humanity when dealing with Spike. In STSP she is gentle and apologizes for running from the church. But she also begins using Spike as her bloodhound and joking about his smelly and instance state. In Help she is snapping at Spike and impatient with him. But she is still able to stop him from hitting himself, showing a glimpse of compassion. That seems to be entirely lacking in Selfless and she is in full slayer mode only there to deal with the threat. I feel the writers are going somewhere important with this. Therefore I don't think it's entirely helpful for people to defend Buffy as showing as much compassion as should be expected etc. I think we are supposed to notice that something odd is going on. JMHO.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- alcibiades, 22:58:21 10/22/02 Tue
Me:
At least Spike is honestly confronting his past -- not shirking it. He's looking it squarely in the face.
Rufus:
I don't think Spike is doing much more than try to figure out what is real and what is a dream. I don't think he will be able to honestly confront much of anything while in a catatonic clench in that basement.
I partially answered this above -- some catatonia is necessary. But I do think that Spike is trying to confront the past. Some of it appears in the first version of the church scene in BY, some of it appears in the very fact that he leaves the basement to go help Buffy when the Ronnie worm shakes up the basement and pulls himself together and tries to kill the worm for her -- and then results in his horror at the mistake he makes inadvertently in spearing Ronnie.
Some of it also emerges in his mumbled speech in STSP --- carry the water, carry the sin, it's supposed to help to help. And some of it emerges in Help when he does Help. The past is weighing terribly on his mind. He hasn't solved it yet, but that is to be expected.
But i agree fully with Dyna that what Buffy really -- perhaps unconsciously- meant last week when she said wtte "it's easier when I'm not here," is it's easier for Buffy. I think the point of the first hallucination is to show it definitely is not easier for Spike. And some compassion would be nice as well.
Buffy just can't seem to give any to him.
It worked for Willow.
And now Willow is able to give some to Anya because she had it given to her.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- Rufus, 23:03:35 10/22/02 Tue
But i agree fully with Dina that what Buffy really -- perhaps unconsciously- meant last week when she said wtte "it's easier when I'm not here," is it's easier for Buffy. I think the point of the first hallucination is to show it definitely is not easier for Spike. And some compassion would be nice as well.
The fact that Buffy can even consider that her presence isn't helping does show that she is at least concerned. The hallucination is based upon what I see as the reflection of the episode "Afterlife" where Buffy went to Spike to talk to.....in Spikes mind he wishes that he could now do that with Buffy so that becomes his reality...shattered by the real (wounded by the memory of the AR)Buffy. Notice the position of the characters in both episodes and the fact that they could at one time be honest with each other.
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- Miss Edith, 02:51:48 10/23/02 Wed
You say Buffy suggesting things are harder when she's around Spike show she is concerned for him. But are we shown Buffy's concern? Spike is crying and begging Buffy not to leave him and she looks at him with a blank expression before turning her back and walking out. If the writers wished to show Buffy as genuinely concerned for Spike would they not have shown her looking conflicted as she walked out? I think her statement is pretty ambiguous and could be seen as her saying it's easier for her not to deal with his emotions.
I am not saying that you are necessarily wrong. But I think you may be jumping to conclusions when you say Buffy was concerned for Spike. Her statement does have two possible interpretations and the writers do not allow us to see Buffy's response to Spike when she says it's easier when she is away from him.
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A few questions. -- Rufus, 04:44:23 10/23/02 Wed
You say Buffy suggesting things are harder when she's around Spike show she is concerned for him. But are we shown Buffy's concern? Spike is crying and begging Buffy not to leave him and she looks at him with a blank expression before turning her back and walking out.
Buffy isn't giving in the area of emotion leaving many with the impression that she is uncaring when she is simply not able to express herself well in very emotional circumstances. I feel Buffy does show a concern for Spike that goes beyond making sure the kids are safe with a vampire in the basement of the school. Spike was begging Buffy to stay but she simply had other things of a higher priority to do at the time.....like saving the life of a student. I don't think Buffy knows how to deal with the newly ensoulled Spike who seems to have gone crazy. I think you saw a glimpse of a beginning of a change.....when Spike said he had nowhere else to go.....we simply don't know what happens after. When he mentions "scream Montressor all you like, pet." what does he mean.....is he a prisoner who is being tormented, yet trapped by Buffy, or, is Spike not sure if any Buffy he deals with is real? Buffy is right, the only way to hope to save his sanity is to get him out of there. But he has to want to leave. So, is Spike a prisoner of the basement, or is he there for another reason? My biggest question is what drew Spike to the basement of the school when he could just as easily gone back to the crypt Clem was cryptsitting for him? Another question is, was Spike insane before he got in the basement or did he become insane the longer he was there? One thing I have to wonder about as well is was the Buffy at the end of Lessons the only time the entity in the basement used her form, if so, is the kinder, gentler Buffy created by Spike to calm him? One thing that is clear, he feels extreme grief and shame for the AR. Will Buffy ever be able to see past that and reach out to Spike like she did to the newly ensoulled Angel?
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Re: Shaking my head here...... -- Yellow Bird, 22:48:12 10/22/02 Tue
We are obviously watching different shows here. Spike is honestly confronting his past? Which Spike? He's too crazy to be confronting anything. He hallucinates that Buffy will forgive him and make it all better. Spike has to make it better himself. I don't see the Buffy is a bitch anywhere in how she treats anyone in this episode.
And ya know, they made a point of Buffy saying that she had already thought through the alternatives and didn't have any. She asked Xander for some and he didn't either. Do you wait until she kills more people? And geez the show is only 42 minutes, you might make some leaps in judgment about what happens during the rest of the time..
And why the tsk, tsk its because its character bashing, not analysis. And this board is for analysis.
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Dictatorship Of The Heart (a rebuttal about Buffy's alleged heartlessness) -- ZachsMind, 21:28:14 10/22/02 Tue
When Buffy does show her heart, some fans don't seem to notice. Or remember.
SEASON FIVE
"Dawn listen to me. Listen. I love you. I will *always* love you. This is the work I have to do. Tell Giles... Tell Giles I figured it out. And... I'm okay. Give my love to my friends. You have to take care of them now -- you have to take care of each other. You have to be strong. Dawn, the hardest thing in this world is to live in it. Be brave. Live. For me."
SEASON SIX
"You. Things have really sucked lately, but that's all gonna change - and I want to be there when it does. I want to see my friends happy again. I want to see you grow up. The woman you're gonna become... Because she's gonna be beautiful. And she's gonna be powerful. I got it so wrong. I don't want to protect you from the world - I want to show it to you. There's so much that I wanna show you."
SEASON SEVEN
"I got so much strength, I'm giving it away."
Buffy is NOT heartless. She's not cold and unfeeling. She in fact feels too much for the job she's been chosen to perform.
There are times when I pass a homeless guy on the street who asks me to give him a dollar. I don't stop. I don't give him anything. I don't even offer eye contact. Is that cold and heartless? Maybe. Maybe it's that I know that single dollar's not gonna help him. And stopping my life to try to help him put his life back together, well that's not gonna help me. It'd rip me up inside. A drowning man cannot be helped by someone who doesn't know how to swim.
That's how Buffy is. Despite all the power she has, when it comes to affairs of the heart, she's just as vulnerable as the rest of us, and perhaps that is the crux of what makes this series so captivating. This is a show with violence, but it's also a show about emotion and values and love. It's an action show for women. Something very rare and precious in today's media. It's about female empowerment, but not because the lead character has super strength, but because the lead character is facing the very things that make women powerful.
She's gotta pick her battles. She can't bleed her heart every time someone comes along. She's gotta intuitively figure out when it'll do the most good. When it will help the most people. Sometimes that's one vampire at a time. Sometimes it's one soul at a time. And sometimes it means you gotta let someone drown so that others can live. These are not easy choices.
She's got a heart, but she's also got a mind. And if she's learned anything from her friends, it's that the heart (metaphorically Xander), mind (Giles), body (herself), and spirit (Willow) have to work together. One cannot lead the others forward. If she were to bleed her heart every time things got tough, she'd be lost. This is not a dictatorship of the heart. The Heart cannot be in charge alone, with the others being led blindly. This was ironically, Adam's weakness.
SEASON FOUR
BUFFY: You could never hope to grasp the source of our power.
Buffy uppercuts Adam, sending him flying to the ground. She picks him up and kicks him against the wall. She reaches into him and pulls out his uranium heart.
BUFFY: But yours is right here.
The four have to speak as one.
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Re: Hearts and Walls, Spoilers for 7.5 But what about the symbolism -- LeeAnn, 21:39:59 10/22/02 Tue
I didn't consider my observations an attack on Buffy but on where ME and the story is leading us. I actually feel more positive about her after this episode since the "heartless Buffy" story is obviously the story they are telling which surely means they will resolve it with Buffy having her heart and her feelings restored. The scene with Sweet!Haluci!Buffy and Spike clearly illustrates that "Bitch!Buffy" is deliberate on ME's part. It's part of the story and what they want to show. So if Buffy is cold and heartless it's because she's being written that way. We're not just reading it into SMG's characterization. "Love, Give, Forgive". Is Buffy doing that? Or avoiding it.
These heart anvils and these wall anvils falling out of the sky have to mean something.
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My take on it. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:47:26 10/22/02 Tue
With symbolism, I gather you're talking about the spider demon not being able to tear out Buffy's heart. I viewed it differently. I saw it as Buffy not letting her heart be penetrated by the one(s) she might have to kill.
As for "Bitch Buffy", could it be that by having the shapeshifting, beyond-good-and-evil creature act nice to Spike, ME is showing that maybe treating Spike with whole outpourings of sympathy isn't necessarily a good thing?
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Re: My take on it. . . -- Miss Edith, 03:05:15 10/23/02 Wed
I think the anvils LeAnn is referring to is the two Buffy's visiting Spike in the basement. Spike is first shown with a concerned Buffy dressed in white and offering a tormented soul love and forgiveness. My interpretation of that scene is that most viewers will breath a sigh of relief and think thank goodness Buffy is finally showing concern for Spike.
ME have emphasized Spike's suffering, showing him gibbering insanely in ther basement and screaming in pain pleading with his mum to please make it stop. He has also burned himself on a cross expressing the hope that he may be loved and forgiven. I would presume the average viewer is hoping Buffy offers more than she has so far.
We are then confronted with what we believe to be is the real Buffy. She is dressed in black and is in detached slayer mode telling Spike to prove he has a soul and ordering him to get out of the basement right now and pull himself together.
The contrasting Buffy's could very much be seen as an anvil from ME trying to tell us something about these two very separate versions of Buffy. If the Buffy dressed in black is the current Buffy than ME are practically inviting the casual viewer to think of the lead character unsympathetically.
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Re: My take on it. . . -- Miss Edith, 03:58:09 10/23/02 Wed
The Buffy in white wasn't being sappy and unhelpful. She was simply being a good counselor, listening to Spike without judgment, and saying she can help. The real Bufy then turns up with I'm told ominous music playing in the background. She is snappy with Spike and makes it clear he is wasting her time and needs to get a grip. Whose behaviour are we supposed to admire? Walking up to a homeless person and telling them to suck it up and get a job is about as helpful as Buffy came across when in black. There was a deliberate contrast and I would say we were supposed to see the Buffy dressed in white as the example to emulate.
Buffy is shown to despise Spike and has real contempt for this smelly insane vampire. She is also clearly stating that being a slayer means she is apart from others and she is the law. All viewpoints which have been discouraged in earlier seasons. When Faith says "We are the law" Buffy responds by point out that "We help people, that doesn't mean we can do whatever we want". Yet the writers are referring back to that past conversation with Buffy taking on the role of Faith the "bad girl" who believed she needed to isolate herself to be an effective slayer. In Ted Cordy says there should be different roles for the slayer and Willow sarcastically notes "Sure in a fascist society". I would say that we are being strongly warned that Buffy has become too hardened by slaying or something else is going on.
The first slayer told Buffy to love and forgive and warned her she would only lose her humanity if she turned her back on the love she is full of. That is why I am uneasy at Buffy not letting her heart be penetrated. Buffy has lasted this long because she has friends and loves and is a part of the world. Giles's take on her being unable to kill Ben was that she was a hero. Why? Because she has always been unable to close off her heart and be the dispassionate slayer. I would say based on earlier seasons that we are supposed to be concerned at the direction that Buffy seems to be headed in. She seems to be headed back to the origins of the first slayer almost.
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Re: Buffy 1 and 2, Spike 1 and 2 -- Deb, 06:36:53 10/23/02 Wed
First let me say, the show last night was a hoot. I loved the sub-titles and flashbacks, and, for the very first time I actually liked Xander.
But, addressing the Message Subject:
With Buffy 1 (white) there was Spike 1. He's sitting there talking happily about his visions and how they remind him of Dru, and how he misses her and all that. Has anyone ever thought that possibly all the while Spike was caretaking Dru, she was doing the same for him? As Buffy pointed out later in the ep, Spike didn't choose to be a vampire, and I really believe that he hated himself as a vampire, but what's a gent to do? You are what you are, so be the best at what you are. 'Well, if I have to remain a vampire, then I'll the the best da** bloody vamp the world has ever seen.'
Zee point: Spike needed Dru to survive and give unlife that poetic, rose-colored, dream world that helped him survive being a vamp. Let us face it, he loved her way of "being." So, he's past the point of hearing all those voices in his head and is attempting to use old survival techniques. The problem is:
Dru is gone, his old coping mechanisms don't work anymore, and he has a soul. And Dru would not be helpful or wanted anymore, because in Buffy 2 (black) he sees a part of himself that is emerging. The "this is reality now, and you cope by being strong. (Plus, when you stop to think about it, this is Buffy afterall, so will the "real" Buffy and Spike please stand up? Well, they both are the real Buffy and Spike.
Warning: Too much information about to be shared:
I married a guy who would have hung out with Dru all the time. In SOME ways I was like Dru (probably still am), but a good part of me was like Buffy 2, but I thoght I was supposed to "support" my husband and help him cope. I just ended up being an enabler, and he never grew up, no matter how kind I was to him, and reassurring, and forgiving and tolerant. I was working two jobs to support his life's ambition of sitting on the couch and well, escaping from "reality" (Oh there's that concept again.)
Buffy 2 doesn't have time to be there at all moments holding Spike's hand and listening about fond memories. She's committed to being the Slayer, so she tells him to get out of the basement and get a life. If she didn't care about him she wouldn't bother, and I don't think she'll put him up either. He needs to get a home of his own and a life.
Poor Buffy though, when he does get a life, will she be in it anymore?
Postscript to "too much": My ex married a woman who lays down the law and draws the line, and he's a much better person for her. Don't get me wrong, I like a guy who can dream and knows every word of "AnnaBelle Lee" (and can tolerate my dancing around and singing to "Thunder Road", and etc.,) but when crisis strikes, he's got to be able to be a team player with a clear head. I don't want to just survive. I want to play too.
One more observation: When Buffy is talking to Will about how she had to dust Angel, even is he is the love of her life. He was her first love and first loves often get dusted by a love with a broken heart. I think she was rather proud admitting it, and if she just keeps telling herself, and the others, that Angel is the love of her life she doesn't have to face the consequences of Spike deciding he doesn't love her, really. (Ah, there it is again!) It wasn't until I got dusted in love that I grew up, and Buffy has been dusted in love too many times to set herself up again. When you get dusted in love don't you just want to disappear and blow away?
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For what it's worth -- Traveler, 21:47:56 10/22/02 Tue
"The scene with Sweet!Haluci!Buffy and Spike clearly illustrates that "Bitch!Buffy" is deliberate on ME's part. It's part of the story and what they want to show. "
I immediately thought this was the case too. Some other posters believe that Buffy's second visit was also a hallucination, which would blow this theory out of the water. I'm personally adopting a "wait and see" attitude.
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