May 2004 posts
Do you want me to lie
to you now? (spoilers 5.22) -- Lunasea, 11:07:14 05/20/04
Thu
Everything in my head is singing! Sometimes Dru says it best.
I feel like Angelus has come home again. No more of this "I've
got a soul" crap. We'll feed and we'll play. Life is truly
a game, one with no rules or referees.
Angel: We don't have a lot of time here, so I'm going to have
to make this short. Everything you think you know. Everything
you've heard is a lie.
Gunn: Why should we believe you?
Angel: Because I'm the one that told it. Read any good books,
Wesley?
Out of everything on both shows, all of Angel's epiphanies, all
of Buffy's growth, nothing has been as "true"
as this statement. For 8 years, many characters have stood for
the voice of Joss. My favorite was the Spirit Guide in "Intervention."
Typically, it is the story itself that gives Joss' message. Joss'
final message on Buffy wasn't given by the characters, but illustrated
by a spell. Show them, don't tell them.
That is, unless your show is being canceled and you don't have
a lot of time. "We don't have a lot of time here, so I'm
going to have to make this short." This season easily could
have ended with Angel being inducted into the Circle of the Black
Thorn. Then we could have had an entire season, or at least most
of one, making people think that Angel actually had gone over
to the other side. The words above would have been that much more
powerful.
But we didn't have time for that.
Question: "If you buck the system and do your best to make
it collapse, what if it does?"
(this question is what Joss says is the summary of season 6)
Answer: Same thing you've been doing your whole life, lie.
There are two types of lies:
Illyria: To hide from the truth?
Wesley: To endure it.
We tend to see lies as the first. Willow wiped Tara's mind to
hide from the truth. Many have trouble with the mind wipe on AtS
because they see it as the same thing, hiding from the truth.
What is the truth? Memories? One of the more interesting things
about the show is that the characters don't remember things as
they happened. There are two types of flashbacks--ones that show
an accurate portrayal of what happened and ones that show the
past through a particular character's eyes. It is fun figuring
out which is which. If memories are what makes us who we are,
we are composed of lies.
We are human beings and we are weak. We cannot see the truth.
Memories become lies when we confuse them with the truth. Symbols
become lies when we confuse them with what they symbolize. Joss'
story is fiction, a lie. It is a lie that tries to convey the
truth. In doing that, it touches the truth. It is a partial truth.
Each season adds a new layer to it. Given infinite seasons, Joss
could show the truth. Joss doesn't have infinite seasons. Instead
he has X amount of time, in this case 8 years. In those 8 years,
he has fought the Circle of the Black Thorn in his own way. To
what end?
Not to hide from the truth, but to endure it. Joss' story helps
us endure the truth by creating false memories, known as a story.
It is Gunn that asks why they should believe Angel? That seems
to be a question of logic/Wesley, not spirit/mission. It is Gunn
that asks because it is Gunn/spirit/mission that benefits from
the lies. In being able to endure the truth, we are able to load
the furniture on the truck and get ready for what is to come.
These lies are not harmless. In order to accept them, logic has
to be sacrificed. It is logic that reveals them to be lies. When
they becomes counterproductive, they need to be discarded and
it is logic that allows us to do this. As long as they are functional
illusions, logic needs to be suspended. We cannot logic ourselves
into belief, though we can logic ourselves out of it.
Joss' particular lie has no place for Lindsey any more. Lindsey
cannot be part of the team, just as soulless Spike couldn't be.
It would involve character assassination. Lindsey can't be resouled
to bring about a great change in character. Some people just can't
be saved.
That lie has another casualty, Lorne. Lorne may have walked away
from the battle alive, but he also walks away from the team. The
actions of this season have taken their toll on Lorne and he can't
put the bells back on. In Wesley's last breath, he accepts a lie
to ease his way out. Lorne cannot do this. He doesn't logic his
way through life. He feels he way through. He can feel what others
feel. He understands why people are the way they are. He can read
their souls. Lindsey has to die, just like Ben did, for the greater
good. Ripper can do this. Ripper doesn't feel. His dreams aren't
as empty as his conscience seems to be. Lorne isn't like that.
Buffy didn't want to live in a world that would demand the sacrifice
of her sister. Lorne can't be part of a team that would demand
Lindsey's death. He did it out of loyalty to Angel, but that is
the last act he can perform as part of Angel's team.
The brand of the Circle of the Black Thorn is above Angel's walnut
dried out heart. For those who missed the symbolism check out
the
sacred heart of Jesus. One of the very
first threads I started was about the sacred hearts of Buffy
and Angel. It is this sacred heart that doesn't believe that people
should suffer the way they do. It is this sacred heart that reaches
his breaking point at the beginning of "You're Welcome."
It is this sacred heart the PTB's give the visions to in order
to show him how to turn pain into strength. It is this sacred
heart that needs the lies.
One of the most poignant moments for me was Angel looking out
the window saying he didn't remember what it was like to be human
after he signed his reward away. It was so long ago, he tells
Harmony. Really? Harmony's comments about remembering the beating
of her heart when she kissed a cute guy for the first time show
Angel's memory to be a lie. It wasn't that long ago. It was a
mere 4 years. The Oracles said he would have to bear that burden.
Angel had no idea what a burden it would be. It is such a burden
that he constructs a lie to endure it.
Angel gives everyone the day off to enjoy whatever it is they
want. They each turn to whatever lie gets them through the night.
Angel's lie is Connor. It is common lie, one shared by most parents.
In our children we live on. Angel tells Connor after they fight
Marcus to get to safety because as long as he is safe, they don't
have him. As long as Connor lives, so does Angel. It is important
for Connor to have his memory back to make this lie work. Without
it, Angel's genetic material continues, but the child that Angel
raised, even for a short time, doesn't.
Connor expresses his gratitude to Angel, but he cannot give up
the lie that Angel got for him. He even fights beside him. That
is who Connor is. He is a champion as well. He will be there for
the apocalypse. Even so, he cannot be Angel's son. Even with his
memories, he cannot live this. He needs the lies of the Vail in
order to endure the truth.
It looks as though Spike is going to return to the love of the
fight, but instead the bloody awful poet goes back to his other
love. After the poem to his mum, I'm sure there would be one for
Buffy. He is and always will be the fool for love.
Lorne turns to song and drink. He doesn't enjoy his day. He can't.
Nothing can make him feel better. When you are open to the world's
feelings, what lie can numb you, let alone give you strength?
Gunn goes back to the neighborhood and is reminded how important
those smallest acts of kindness are. What would you do if you
knew none of this matters? Load the truck. Pretend it matters.
Lie.
Wesley can't lie. The lie he wants, the woman that represents
everything good, is gone. She died a meaningless death. All death
is meaningless. Everything is meaningless. In the existential
world of Joss, nothing has meaning. We have to give it meaning,
like Angel tried to do with Fred's death. This conveying of meaning
is a lie. Wesley cannot spend his last day with a lie of a lie.
He cannot pretend that Fred is here, until the very end.
Then he joins Fred. What seems like a lie to the audience, namely
when Illyria as Fred tells Wesley that they can be together, is
actually a truth. In the angry atheist world of Joss, there is
no afterlife. Wesley does join Fred, in oblivion. His passing
is eased by a lie. That lie makes its impression on Illyria.
Lindsey spends his last day in the arms of Eve. He wants to be
someone and Eve makes him feel that way. She gave up immortality
for him. The lie that Lindsey needs is that he is someone. When
he is shot by Lorne, a flunkie, that lie collapses as he does.
That lie cannot be sustained in Joss' world. Lindsey has to die.
Joss' world is the world of Gunn and Anne. It isn't about how
important you are. It is about helping others. Gunn comes out
wounded, but alive. He is the only character that is alive in
the alley at the end. Angel and Spike are dead vampires. Who knows
what to classify Illyria as. She isn't alive Fred. Only spirit/mission
makes it out. His wound is opposite what killed Wesley. It is
opposite the wound that Wesley gave him earlier. It is the wound
that Jesus had hanging on the cross. Gunn is now the Jesus figure.
What each of them are assigned to kill ties into the lies that
allow them to endure the truth. Gunn gets the Senator. He can
kill her. There is an entire political party that will make sure
his neighborhood doesn't receive the resources it needs. Even
so, he can pretend that he made a difference by killing her.
Spike not only gets to kill the Fell Brethren, but he gets to
save the baby and return him to his family. The lie that his mother
told him hasn't been fixed yet. They have to leave something for
the spin-off.
Illyria is just starting to find lies in order to help her endure.
As such, she gets to kill the Prince of Lies, the devil. This
character made Angel sign away his reward, in blood. Not sure
Angel can do that, but it was important for him to think he had.
One thing I wondered about all those documents that Angel signs
in blood, it isn't his blood. Vampires don't have their own blood.
When Dracula feeds Buffy "his" blood, it isn't his,
but hers. Does this mean that all those contracts are null and
void?
Lindsey not only is killed by flunkies, but is sent after the
lowest players in the Circle of the Black Thorn. He doesn't even
do it by himself. He is backed by the guy that doesn't fight.
Lorne's high note is important to beating the demons.
Wesley gets to be the one to betray Angel. Spike would have loved
to play that lie. He already got to, in "Just Rewards."
It was important for Wesley to not only be the one to "betray"
Angel, but to be the one to face Vail. It was also important for
Fred's practical world to be what ultimately kills him, since
his power is mystical (think Ewoks defeating the Empire). Vail
is the one that created the false memories that allow people to
endure the truth. Wesley's betrayal of Angel season 3 is what
necessitates these lies. It is Wesley that breaks the Orlon window
wondering "Is this your 30 pieces of silver?" Wesley
plays fake Judas and does not get 30 pieces of silver for his
trouble.
The real Judas is Harmony, who justifies everything because people
don't trust her. Her lie is that she is trustworthy if people
would only trust her. Angel uses this trait against Marcus. The
Archduke would like to think he is head of the Circle of the Black
Thorn. The real power is in Marcus. The Archduke's death is as
unceremonious as Lindsey's. It isn't even done face to face.
But all these lies aren't the big one. Read any good books, Wesley?
Season 5 AtS is a continuation of the story of AtS season 4 AND
BtVS season 7. This is the first message that Joss is giving to
all of us newly empowered Slayers. The lesson, everything he used
to empower us is a lie. He knows this because "I'm the one
that told it." His story of the importance of choice, identity,
connection, love, family, smallest acts of kindness, etc. in the
gaping existential hole means nothing. That meaning is completely
manufactured. Joss' apocalypse is no more real than John's in
The Book of Revelation. It is resistance literature to
meet a crisis. The choice that Joss builds his series on is a
lie, an illusion, a completely functional illusion, but an illusion
nonetheless.
This lack of choice was illustrated by Lorne. Did Giles really
have a choice about killing Ben? Nope. He can go into the illusion
of Ripper in order to endure what he had to do. That is what Ripper
is. It isn't the "real" Giles. It is a persona he can
put on to do what needs to be done. Lorne did what he had to,
but it destroyed him. It didn't kill him. He had to leave, like
Wesley was willing to do with baby Connor Season 3.
Our ultimate power rests in seeing through all these illusions.
These illusions tend to become counterproductive and to function
optimally, we need new illusions. Illyria's illusions of power
crumbled. Now she is starting to feel human emotions for whatever
reasons. These make her want to be violent. This will help her
fight that wall of demons we see at the end.
Angel could not beat Marcus in human visage. He even needs to
be saved by Connor. Angel and Connor combined cannot beat Marcus.
Marcus' lies are more powerful. Marcus' power is not his own.
It the ancient power of the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart. Angel
takes that lie and makes it his own. He combines it with his own
power and manages to kill Marcus. It is this death that is the
ultimate insult to the Senior Partners. It is this insult that
results in their fury being released on the gang. Destroying the
Circle is still playing the game by the rules. It is still the
good fight. Taking the power of the Senior Partners, not because
they sign it over to you, but through drinking Marcus, is not
playing by the rules. It is seeing the rules as lies. It is creating
a new lie. That lie empowers Angel.
This lie transforms Angel. He runs out into the rain for his new
baptism. He is still jazzed on Marcus juice, which is more powerful
than Drogyn juice. With that juice flowing in his veins, he gets
ready to do battle. He will slay that dragon and who knows what
else. He will because he must. The furniture has to get on the
truck. It won't move itself.
That is where Joss leaves us. His story revealed for the lie it
is, what we now have to do is slay the dragons that confront us.
Not with illusions, but because we have to. Oops there goes another
rubber tree plant.
Replies:
[> Re: Thanks for a very interesting read -- Antigone,
16:06:44 05/20/04 Thu
[> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now? (spoilers 5.22)
-- Ann, 18:14:54 05/20/04 Thu
Heehee "another rubber tree plant."
I have been thinking about the use of the word lie since you posted.
The negative connotations associated with this puts a spin on
this that takes us away from your positive meaning. "That
is where Joss leaves us. His story revealed for the lie it is,
what we now have to do is slay the dragons that confront us. Not
with illusions, but because we have to."
I think I would prefer the use of the word fiction. Fiction as
noun and verb. Because this world that he created is fiction,
the idea that JW is positing a lie, called fiction, works. After
all it is "just a" ....story. There is no value judgment
there as is with the word lie. The word illusion works too but
the idea of trickery is involved and that is not his intention
I don't think. "Symbols become lies when we confuse them
with what they symbolize. Joss' story is fiction, a lie. It is
a lie that tries to convey the truth. In doing that, it touches
the truth. It is a partial truth. Each season adds a new layer
to it. Given infinite seasons, Joss could show the truth."
Wouldn't that be wonderful? But alas, reality bites again, and
it was cancelled. That is the lie that we have come to expect
from these networks that rub our faces in a cancellation that
we did not ask for by expecting us to be grateful for what they
have given us. We are, but heck!
I hadn't gotten around yet to thinking about to which member of
the Black Circle each of AI was sent to kill. Very fitting what
you show.
"Taking the power of the Senior Partners, not because they
sign it over to you, but through drinking Marcus, is not playing
by the rules." I like this idea very much. He truly goes
into the belly of the beast by drinking Hamilton. He goes underneath,
within and only then can win.
"Not with illusions, but because we have to. Oops there goes
another rubber tree plant." I think that song, that I was
going to post below but didn't, as silly as it is, gets to the
point very well. JW does what he has to, did for 12 total seasons,
and I am glad of that.
[> [> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now? (spoilers
5.22) -- buffyguy, 21:32:39 05/20/04 Thu
"In the angry atheist world of Joss, there is no afterlife.
Wesley does join Fred, in oblivion."??
I was of the impression that there is an afterlife?...ie. buffy's
heaven and darla's ghost. If there is an afterlife then wesley
went there. I have one question though, i know fred's spirit was
destroyed but did they say anything about her soul?
[> [> [> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now? (spoilers
5.22) -- Traveler, 18:48:44 05/21/04 Fri
They said soul, not spirit. The main idea is that she was completely
destroyed and was therefore impossible to ressurect. So, when
Illyria said that she (meaning Fred) would be waiting for Wes
on the other side, that was a lie too.
[> [> [> not the Buffyverse -- Lunasea, 19:14:50
05/21/04 Fri
I was of the impression that there is an afterlife?
I didn't say the Buffyverse. I said the "angry atheist world
of Joss." the actual world, the world beyond the story. Stories
resonate with us because they could be true. The laws of physics
are obeyed, and if they aren't, that must be explained. Human
act the way humans do. Cause and effect is followed. The Buffyverse
has demons, but that doesn't make it less real. If anything, Joss'
story feels more real than so-called non-fiction.
Take Wesley and put him in the real world that Joss Whedon lives
in. In that world there is no afterlife. In the Buffyverse, the
afterlife isn't real. It is symbolic. It is a metaphor. We see
what Illyria said as a lie, but really it isn't. In the atheist
world of the creator, Fred's death has been the only "accurate"
one. Wesley will join her in that he won't exist any more.
[> [> [> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now? (spoilers
5.22) -- Sci, 22:49:43 05/21/04 Fri
No way to know if there's an afterlife or not. Yes, Buffy went
to a Heavenly dimension after her death, but she died from exposure
to a mystical vortex. Who's to say that it wasn't the exposure
to the vortex that caused her spirit/soul/essence/whatever to
go to a Heavenly dimension? Darla, when resurrected in 2000, reported
no memory of anything between her dusting in 1997 and her resurrection.
And given as how Jasmine would have interfered with its plans,
there is a distinct possibility that Darla in Season Four was
the First Evil. There's also the possibility that her spirit was
brought back from oblivion by The Powers That Be to try to stop
Connor, but that doesn't mean that most spirits/souls/whatever
continue to exist in an afterlife.
[> [> Why the word "lie" -- Lunasea, 19:08:11
05/21/04 Fri
I used the word lie mainly for two reasons. The first is
it is only three letters and I am very lazy. Typing "useful
fiction" over and over again gets as tiresome as typing "the
form the archetype takes." The second reason is that fiction
has a literary connotation that I wanted to avoid. I'm not talking
about fiction or lie as in a made-up narrative. Fictional stories
are often seen as illustrating great truths. I am talking about
those "truths."
I like the Buffyverse because Joss' useful fictions match the
ones I use for the most part. We differ on one huge one, choice.
Feignebaum, the Master of Chaos, does not support choice, even
though Chaos Theory is used this way. The Butterfly in Africa
flapping her wings does not choose to do so. Whether it is my
history/karma that makes my "choice" or random firing
of neurons, "I" don't do it. There is no "I."
Those are the two most powerful illusions there are, choice and
control, both dependent on an "I" to do them.
But what incredibly useful fictions they are. They allow us to
endure so much. They move all those rubber tree plants that need
moving. I know I don't choose. Doesn't mean I don't play
along with it and try to make the best possible choices. I wrote
last summer about how mind/heart/spirit on both BtVS and AtS line
up with The Wizard of Oz. I love the ending. The Wizard
is revealed to be a fraud, a lie, BUT they all still want what
they want. The Scarecrow has been shown to be smart, but he still
wants something tangible so he believes he is smart. Same thing
with the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion. Dorothy still wants to
go home, even though she is home all along.
I used lie because I wanted the negative connotations that go
along with it. They aren't always useful. They can become counterproductive.
We saw that over and over again this season. That's part of the
game. When the rules become counterproductive, kick over the board.
To do this, we have to recognize that the board needs kicking.
It is an incredible writer than can write something that is a
useful fiction while at the same time revealing it to be a lie.
Symbols are fun. We can say that X stands for Y. If we stop there,
we miss things. Y stands for Z and Z takes us back to A. A heart
stands for love, but love isn't the archetype. It is yet another
form it takes. We give it form in order to hold it and be held
by it. Lie may have negative connotations, but that connotation
is a lie. Everything is. Man doesn't search for the truth. We
try to find the best possible lies that allow us to function optimally.
I like Joss' lies. I'm going to miss them. Now I have to write
my own. Have I mentioned how lazy I am?
[> [> [> Re: Why the word "lie" -- RichardX1, 09:40:44
05/23/04 Sun
>>Whether it is my history/karma that makes my "choice"
or random firing of neurons, "I" don't do it. There
is no "I." Those are the two most powerful illusions
there are, choice and control, both dependent on an "I"
to do them.<<
Finally, someone who realizes that in the absence of God or an
Afterlife (which is not technically dependent upon a God
for its own existence), the very idea of sentience becomes a lie.
Probably the cruellest trick our brains have perpetrated upon
themselves. Interesting... in the Book of Exodus, God describes
Himself thus: "I AM THAT I AM." Funny, how in the absence
of a Creator, His very description, "I AM" becomes a
lie by anything that claims it.
Me, I have to believe that God exists. You may consider me weak
for that, but in the absence of a Creator or an Afterlife, the
only aspect of me that will survive my life (and therefore the
only part of my existence with any lasting meaning) becomes my
genome. This leaves me with two options:
1. Become what "society" would consider an inhuman monster
what with all the raping (to perpetuate my genes) and killing
(to remove competing genes) that I'd feel justified in carrying
out.
2. Do everything possible and necessary to convert the world into
a psychologically and aesthetically sterilized mix of Orwell,
Huxley, Metropolis (the movie with that fembot), and Geneshaft.
On the topic of Geneshaft: By your reasoning, lunasea,
Mika was completely in the wrong regarding her anger at her friend's
death. The girl had a duplicate living on Earth; and the only
differences between them would be memories and their corresponding
emotions, which we have established are irrelevant.
And to go from that tangent to yet another one: No, I am not confusing
existentialism with materialism. I am asserting that contemplating
existentialism inevitably leads to either materialism or nihilism
(a philosophy which, oddly, I don't see listed on Masq's site).
Oh, and Masq: Your forum software sucks.
[> [> [> [> Your logic is confusing to me --
Finn Mac Cool, 13:14:11 05/23/04 Sun
Why must something last eternally in order to matter? To me, the
meaning of life seems pretty clear: be happy. Sure, I think we're
all gonna die and just be snuffed out of existence some day, but
it's the time until then that matters. You might say: if this
life is all there is, and we're going to lose it eventually, why
not just end it all right now? Because then we'd lose chances
to be happy. I believe this life is all I have, and so being happy
during it is the only thing that matters, not some geonome continuation
or futile attempt to obtain immortality.
Also, why does the absence of a deity mean there can be no sentience?
How exactly does the logic of that work?
[> [> [> [> [> So, that makes you... a hedonist?
-- RichardX1, 08:18:40
05/24/04 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Not really sure what that
word means, so I can't say -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:26:55 05/24/04
Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> A hedonist...
-- Doug, 15:00:26 05/25/04 Tue
....is someone who believes that the pursuits of pleasure and
happiness are the only real purpose in life.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well then,
I guess I am -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:56:36 05/25/04 Tue
Although the description given here could give the wrong impression.
I believe the only thing that matters is pursuing happiness (in
fact, that it is impossible for a human to take a course of action
he doesn't in some part of his mind believe will make him happy).
The thing is, happiness and pleasure include a variety of things.
It can be purely physical (satisfying thirst, hunger, or lust),
it can be of a moral nature (the pleasure which comes from having
helped someone), it can fit the idea of spiritual enlightenment
(provided being closer to God/the universe/cosmic forces makes
you happier than being unconnected), or emotional (the joys of
love or friendship). It's probably got something to do with Puritans
or the Catholic Church, but saying the pursuit of pleasure is
all the matters conjures up negative conotations, even though,
through my interpretation, I think it's correct.
[> [> [> [> THIS is why this season was important
-- I Am, 18:16:59 05/25/04 Tue
>>Me, I have to believe that God exists. You may consider
me weak for that, but in the absence of a Creator or an Afterlife,
the only aspect of me that will survive my life (and therefore
the only part of my existence with any lasting meaning) becomes
my genome. This leaves me with two options:
1. Become what "society" would consider an inhuman monster
what with all the raping (to perpetuate my genes) and killing
(to remove competing genes) that I'd feel justified in carrying
out.
2. Do everything possible and necessary to convert the world into
a psychologically and aesthetically sterilized mix of Orwell,
Huxley, Metropolis (the movie with that fembot), and Geneshaft.<<
consider Fred: in the end she was obliterated (it would seem)does
that make the rest of her story pointless? Is a persons goodness
worthless simply because they're not rewarded for it, is life
meaningless simply because it ends?
or Angel: he (appears to have) signed away his Sanshu; his heaven,
if you will (in fact he seems to think that without it his life
is simply a temporary reprieve from Hell), does this make saving
the world (for awhile) less noble, or more?
My point is that in all three scenarios (be good and go to Heaven,
rape and pillage, or...uh, that last one) you are motivated by
selfishness, unless you're a total sociopath then you've sold
yourself short.
>>in the Book of Exodus, God describes Himself thus: "I
AM THAT I AM." Funny, how in the absence of a Creator, His
very description, "I AM" becomes a lie by anything that
claims it.<<
you prove it true simply by saying (and meaning) it. It just so
happens that I am that I am too.
[> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now? (spoilers 5.22)
-- StarryNightShade, 04:41:05 05/22/04 Sat
Wonderful comments. Thanks.
I very much agree with you is that the two series have as strong
themes the hearts of Buffy and Angel.
It was Angel seeing Buffy's heart when he saw her for the first
time that made him want to protect that heart with his own.
Their love was the Great Romantic - heart-to-heart love; and the
ring he gave Buffy had a heart. When he leaves it breaks both
of their hearts. [Spike and Buffy's was more mind-to-mind plus
groin-to-groin :-) ]
Angel was an artist (drawing). One artist friend of mine said
drawing is from the heart. [Spike was a poet...playing with words...words
are from the mind.]
Angel's beating heart is an important part of the one human day
he shares with Buffy.
In response to Angel's question, a beating heart is what Harmony
misses most about being human. One of the most poignant moments
for me too was Angel looking out the window saying he didn't remember
what it was like to be human. But I think Cordelia's vision help
to arrest his dying symbolic heart.
Throughout the series it's heartbreaks, one after the other that
dries up Angel emotionally....and his character type is such that
being in touch with his emotions is critical for him to be human-like.
Angel's actions, however ambivalent some of them are, in the finale
require courage....the courage to care despite his belief that
there was no way he could win...and the symbol for courage is
the heart.
So, it's heart, heart, heart...that's important for Angel and
his redemption. When he stays true to it, he is at his "humanly"
best.
A comment on the signing away his Shanshu rights, it doesn't matter
whether or not that is true. What's important for the Circle is
that Angel believes far more profound than he did before.
SNS
P.S. I do appreciate this board and its intelligent discussion.
Other boards make me shiver with comments like "I want Angel
to die, so that Spike can be human." Nnnngh! So much for
redemption.
[> [> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now? (spoilers
5.22) -- Lunasea, 07:31:47 05/22/04 Sat
Angel was an artist (drawing). One artist friend of mine said
drawing is from the heart. [Spike was a poet...playing with words...words
are from the mind.]
Not sure I agree with this. I will say that any form of art, whether
that is poetry or drawing, that doesn't come from the heart isn't
quite art. I think that is what makes William and Spike the Bloody
Awful Poet who can't even find a rhyme. Once Spike does start
to find his heart, he becomes a better poet, even able to find
his rhyme.
I know my writing got a lot better once I found mine.
I think Angel fits the Real World a bit better than Buffy did.
She figures things out and manages to save the day and evenutally
herself. Nice story. Not remotely real. No matter what Angel does,
things go badly. That's life. It is nice to think we can change
the world like Buffy/Willow, but how many of us actually do? Instead
most of us keep loading furniture on the truck. We have to rely
on smallest acts of kindness, because that is all we have to offer.
Buffy's world is a metaphor for self. Angel's world is a metaphor
for the world. Buffy is the extrovert in an introvert's world.
Angel is the introvert in an extrovert's world.
Yummy stories both.
[> [> [> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now? (spoilers
5.22) -- SNS, 07:56:27 05/22/04 Sat
Doing some painting and writing myself, I agree with you that
all art has to come from the heart. It would be better to say
that if Spike is the more cerebral (of course not totally cerebral,
but more so than Angel) his preferred art form would include the
use of words (The word = spirit = logos). The idea was discussed
in an article on representing the Irish (i.e. Angel) on Btvs/Ats
at http://www.slayage.tv/ (the Online Journal of Buffy Studies).
For personal reasons I tried to determine the Myers-Briggs personality
types of Angel/Buffy/Spike. The turned out as:
Angel = Introvert / Intuitive / Feeling / Judging
Buffy = Extrovert / Intuitive / Feeling / Perceptive
Spike = Extrovert / Sensing / Feeling / Perceptive
Strangely enough, it turns out that I'm the same type as Buffy,
my wife has the same type as Angel and my first wife has the same
type as Spike....now wouldn't that make the hairs on the back
of your neck rise.
I do agree with your assessment of the series and it explains
why I've responded stronger to Ats.
SNS
[> [> [> [> Re: Do you want me to lie to you now?
(spoilers 5.22) -- lunasea, 08:48:45 05/22/04 Sat
It would be better to say that if Spike is the more cerebral
(of course not totally cerebral, but more so than Angel) his preferred
art form would include the use of words (The word = spirit = logos).
Our chosen art form tends to be the opposite of what we are. I
write a lot here. I am a fairly analytical person. My real art
form is photography. I do write, but my heart sings most when
I'm making pictures.
Our art comes from the Transcendent Function, just like mythology.
It arises to compensate for imbalances in the psychological functions.
Angel is the cerebral type. We see him reading whenever he is
alone. That is why his art form is without words.
Spike on the other hand is not cerebral. He openly admits this.
He not only watches TV, but "Passions." His unconsious
uses words to balance this out. I wouldn't say Spike is cerebral,
his unconscious is, since thinking has been completely shoved
to the shadow.
The word has some interesting things associated with it. The word
is the creative force. It is power. To name something is to have
power over it. Consciously Angel is about power. Spike just loves
to fight for the fun of it. Spike's art form is what attempts
to mold the world.
[> [> [> Introversion and Extroversion -- SNS,
08:12:41 05/22/04 Sat
Just to agree with your statement about the two series.
Angel is an introverted demon who must connect with the outer
(extroverted) human world to discover his humanity.
Buffy is an extroverted human who must connect with her inner
(introverted) world to discover the demon within.
I think that this (Angel finding his humanity) WAS shown in the
finale in a subtle way. There was a fulfilment of the shanshu
on a spiritual level...the physiological fulfilment being unnecessary.
A physiological fulfilment would be detrimental to any further
interest in the character Angel as it would imply a purely human
character without a demon. We all have demons within, so a real-human
Angel would have little to say to us.
SNS
[> [> [> [> Re: Introversion and Extroversion
-- Lunasea, 08:33:17 05/22/04 Sat
I'd go one step further in the intro/extrovert worlds of BtVS
and AtS. Buffy's world is a metaphor for stuff going on inside
of Buffy. DL has a problem with how Sunnydale was treated S7,
but Sunnydale wasn't a real place. It was just a metaphor that
could be discarded easily. The demons on BtVS are symbolic of
what is going on inside the characters. The external world of
BtVS mirrors the internal world. It is the creation of an introvert.
There are some that says AtS lacks metaphor. Angel himself is
the metaphor on AtS. Angel's state of mind as he reacts to circumstances
is the story. Fries doesn't come to symbolize what Angel is thinking
about. Instead he leads him to think about it. The metaphors on
Angel don't illustrate things. They cause them. It is the creation
of an extrovert.
The lines aren't completely drawn. Either show will slip into
the other perspective. These are their worlds for the most part.
[> Careful dissent on ultimate fate of certain characters
(spoilers 5.22, BtVS 2, 5 & 6) -- Fred the obvious pseudonym,
11:27:32 05/26/04 Wed
"Then [Wesley] joins Fred. What seems like a lie to the audience,
namely when Illyria as Fred tells Wesley that they can be together,
is actually a truth. In the angry atheist world of Joss, there
is no afterlife. Wesley does join Fred, in oblivion. "
This may well be true in Joss' view of the Realverse; I won't
get into a discussion of the prospects of life after death in
the here & now.
However, we have evidence that in the Buffyverse life or at least
some sort of spiritual existence continues after death. Cases:
1.) "The Gift." Buffy takes the high dive and is dead,
albeit by some supernatural means (her spirit, apparently, separated
from her body when she hit Glory's interplanar gate.) Her soul/spirit
continued to exist in that cozy comfy place until recalled by
Willow in Bargaining (6.01).
2.) "I Only Have Eyes for You" Two ordinary people,
Grace and her boytoy lover James, ended their lives in 1955 with
the very non-supernatural means of kinetic energy (bullets and
a fall.) Nonetheless their spirits continue to infest Sunnydale
High until released by the completion of their death-ritual by
Buffy & Angel. It is implied at the end of their journey that
their spirits survive or are somehow translated into a different
point of existence.
3.) Various invocations of Angel's soul -- by the gypsies in 1894
and by Willow (twice), in 1998 and 2003; apparently even tho'
Angel/Liam died in 1752 (?) his soul remained floating around
somewhere separate from his body until called back in later years,
perhaps the worse for wear. See also Spike.
I think that this provides enough evidence that in the Buffyverse,
death does NOT end spiritual existence.
I am, of course, open to correction by those who know the Joss-environs
better than I.
[> Careful dissent on ultimate fate of certain characters
(spoilers 5.22, BtVS 2, 5 & 6) -- Fred the obvious pseudonym,
11:30:24 05/26/04 Wed
"Then [Wesley] joins Fred. What seems like a lie to the audience,
namely when Illyria as Fred tells Wesley that they can be together,
is actually a truth. In the angry atheist world of Joss, there
is no afterlife. Wesley does join Fred, in oblivion. "
This may well be true in Joss' view of the Realverse; I won't
get into a discussion of the prospects of life after death in
the here & now.
However, we have evidence that in the Buffyverse life or at least
some sort of spiritual existence continues after death. Cases:
1.) "The Gift." Buffy takes the high dive and is dead,
albeit by some supernatural means (her spirit, apparently, separated
from her body when she hit Glory's interplanar gate.) Her soul/spirit
continued to exist in that cozy comfy place until recalled by
Willow in Bargaining (6.01).
2.) "I Only Have Eyes for You" Two ordinary people,
Grace and her boytoy lover James, ended their lives in 1955 with
the very non-supernatural means of kinetic energy (bullets and
a fall.) Nonetheless their spirits continue to infest Sunnydale
High until released by the completion of their death-ritual by
Buffy & Angel. It is implied at the end of their journey that
their spirits survive or are somehow translated into a different
point of existence.
3.) Various invocations of Angel's soul -- by the gypsies in 1894
and by Willow (twice), in 1998 and 2003; apparently even tho'
Angel/Liam died in 1752 (?) his soul remained floating around
somewhere separate from his body until called back in later years,
perhaps the worse for wear. See also Spike.
I think that this provides enough evidence that in the Buffyverse,
death does NOT end spiritual existence. In which event perhaps
the spirits of Wes and Fred continue to exist, although this does
NOT guarantee that they will be together.
I know that in "Shells" there is reference by Illyria
to Fred's soul being utterly dispelled. I'm not quite sure what
her qualifications are to make a categorical statement on that
point; even if she were so qualified she is hardly a wholly disinterested
source.
I am, of course, open to correction by those who know the Joss-environs
better than I.
There at the start, there
at the end - not who you might think (trivia) -- tomfool,
19:50:40 05/20/04 Thu
Here's a trivia question for you: Who is the only character that
was there at the beginning of the Buffyverse and also there at
the end? Most people think there's an obvious answer, but if you
go ALL the way back to the beginning - the unaired pilot - you
get a different answer than if you start with Welcome to the Hellmouth.
(Warning: Extremely vague spoilers for the finale)
Angel is the obvious choice if you go with the aired episodes.
But Harmony is the only character to appear in the unaired pilot
that also appears in Angel 5.22. The Angel character wasn't added
until WttH. Hard to believe, but one of the strengths of the show
has always been the long-term use and development of secondary
characters. Cheers to Mercedes McNab for her longevity!
Replies:
[> ok new question new challenge:( btw lowest minimum of
spoiling activity) -- trivia master, 22:06:42 05/20/04
Thu
How many times have vampires been killed with pencils (and name
the times it has happened)
its pretty easy if you have a good memory...but a challenge is
a challenge
[> [> Re: ok new question new challenge:( btw lowest
minimum of spoiling activity) -- Ames, 12:03:40 05/22/04
Sat
The only one I recall offhand is the vamp Willow dusted with her
levitated pencil in the Mayor's office in BtVS S3. Ok, there's
my contribution of one - I'm sure there must be more.
Here's one: can you name 17 crossover characters who appeared
first on BtVS, then on Angel? (not counting 2 more who were only
an unheard voice at the other end of a telephone call, and 2 more
who appeared prominently as different characters on each show).
And no, I'm not counting Angelus.
[> [> [> vamps offed by pencils -- purplegrrl,
12:37:57 05/22/04 Sat
At least one more. Dawn dusts the one that is hitting on her in
the park, as Buffy, Spike, and Giles fight the rest. (The name
of the episode escapes me!)
[> [> [> [> that was in "all the way"
-- anom, 20:18:40 05/22/04 Sat
[> [> [> Re: ok new question new challenge:( btw lowest
minimum of spoiling activity) -- ROB, 17:39:54 05/22/04
Sat
I think I got it.
Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Spike, Harmony, Willow, Faith, Buffy,
Oz, Andrew, Darla, Drusilla, The Master, Anne, and those 3 British
jerks.
Post your Angel fave moments!!!!(spoilers
for past seasons) -- ANGEL FAN, 20:05:04 05/20/04 Thu
I would like to hear everyones favorite moments for the five great
seasons of Angel as well as favorite characters and favorite episodes.Here
are mine:
Favorite episode:I forget the name but its the one where Buffy
comes to L.A. (the first time) and Angel becomes human having
mixed his blood with the one of a Mora demon. Angel trows his
newfound humanity away to protect Buffy (indirectly).
Favorite moment:I call this moment the Buffy Angel minute, where
they both say goodbye to each other in the Mora demon episode.
Favorite starring character:Wesley, simple because from the time
he was a wannabe rogue demon hunter to the time he was a dark
bad mother (you know what) he has simply excelled at briging the
show humor and credibility.
Favorite supporting character:Sajan, i just think he was a well
thought character and that he totally rocked!!!
WHAT DO GUYS THINK AND WHAT ARE YOUR CHOICES?
Replies:
[> Re: Post your Angel fave moments!!!!(spoilers for past
seasons) -- Cheryl, 20:48:28 05/20/04 Thu
When it comes to Buffy and Angel, I think it's near impossible
to pick just one favorite anything. But . . .
Favorite episode: Dead End. Let me count the ways I love
this episode (in no particular order):
Love all of the Angel/Lindsey interaction ("You're really
gross, you know that?" "You keep on brooding; you're
good at that.")
Love CK's singing (went online right after I saw it to see if
he had a CD and he does - not a song on it I don't love)
Love Lindsey's last scene in the boardroom (Charlie! And goosing
Lilah.)
Love the fang gang's reaction when they realize Angel's going
to sing (Stairway to Heaven - LOL)
Love the final scene with Angel and Lindsey (and the truck - the
other supporting player).
All of which are reasons why it's so hard for me to accept Lindsey
being EVIL in Season 5. Doesn't work for me.
Favorite moment: There are so many: Doyle's heroic sacrifice;
Wesley: "I'm a rogue demon hunter." Cordelia: "What's
a rogue demon?"; Faith's escape from prison and "Just
like riding a biker" line; Darla staking herself so Connor
could be born; Cordelia watching the tape of Doyle in You're Welcome;
Lindsey in Dead End, "Why aren't you trying to kill me?"
(so prophetic now); the list goes on and on.
Favorite starring character: I'm with you on this one:
Wesley, simple because from the time he was a wannabe rogue
demon hunter to the time he was a dark bad mother (you know what)
he has simply excelled at briging the show humor and credibility.
Favorite supporting character: Lindsey, with Lilah
a close second. Also would have liked to have seen more of Anne.
[> Long-winded but honest: (includes spoilers for finale)
-- mrsubjunctive, 21:44:25 05/20/04 Thu
Minor character: Jasmine. That whole arc, "Shiny Happy
People" through "Peace Out," was so fascinating
and creepy and beautiful. I loved that the AI team got to be happy
for a bit, that they got to have people in the hotel for once,
that they had a chance to feel relief and happiness and comfort,
however fake and icky. The moment at the end of SHP where Fred
is, for my money, more absolutely Alone than she ever dreamed
about being in Pylea, is priceless.
And yet, it's not just about the plot Jasmine makes possible.
I liked Jasmine herself. I didn't get how the creepy mojo quite
worked, but I understood why they'd want to be around her even
without the mystical element. Jasmine seemed sympathetic, kind,
and understanding, and as far as I'm concerned, Gina Torres deserves
enormous props for taking this role and doing it well, where a
lesser actress might have made it cloying or ironic or purely
sinister. I was pretty much ready to become a Jasmine-worshiper
myself. And that was before I saw Torres in "Firefly."
So.
I just can't pick a favorite episode. There's at least a ten-way
tie, for me. And the moments, by and large, make the episodes.
So I'm going to split these up by type:
Scary Episode, Moment: I can't think of any episode, for
sheer emotional punch, that matches "Billy." Wesley
chasing Fred through the hotel is very possibly the creepiest
thing "Angel's" ever taped, for me. Or "Buffy"
either, for that matter. And poor Wesley's never been quite right
since then. (Honorable mention: "The Thin Dead Line.")
Comic Episode, Moment: "Smile Time." Not that
ST wasn't also creepy and disturbing (Remember the odd sexual
noises the puppet made when the kids put their hands on the TV?
Or "I think you want to talk to the hand!" Or etc.),
but, you know, Angel was a wee little puppet man! With the eyebrows
and detachable nose and everything! Plus the ending fight scene
was just too ridiculous for words. Plus, this is where I learned
the difference between analogy and metaphor, and the value of
self-esteem. (Honorable mention: "Over the Rainbow.")
Tragic Episode, Moment: "Tomorrow." Specifically,
the last few minutes of "Tomorrow." Lorne's going to
Vegas. Cordelia's disappearing into the sky for who knows what
purpose, for who knows how long, without a chance to say good-bye
to anybody. Wes is sleeping with the enemy, abandoned by the team,
nearly dead a couple times. Groo's gone because Cordelia doesn't
really love him (which personally I liked Groo better than Angel
but apparently I'm not Cordelia). Angel's been betrayed by his
son, and is telling Connor "I love you" while getting
sealed into a giant metal coffin. And those final moments with
Fred and Gunn wondering where everybody is . . . it was devastating.
Devastating, and empty, and painful, and hollow. Everything taken
away, everybody taken away. Good Lord. (Honorable mention: "Hero.")
Title credits character: Well. I adore Lorne. I really
do. And Amy Acker's been stunning in Season 5: I would never have
thought she could pull off the Fred to Illyria transition (and
back!) like she did. But. However much I may like Lorne, they
never saw fit to give him all that much to do. And though I like
Fred and Illyria both, they don't just blow me away as characters
go.
But Wes does. And I'm not just saying that because he's dead.
When I said, above, that he was never quite right after "Billy,"
I don't mean to put his whole personality change on that one incident.
Wes gets hit, over and over and over, with some truly dreadful
things. He loses Fred, a few times. He loses everybody, in S3.
Loses Lilah. Post-"Billy," he's not entirely sure anymore
whether he's a good person, deep down. Post-"Sleep Tight,"
he's not sure Angel's ever going to trust him again. He had a
sucky family life, and then he shot his dad (kinda). Near the
end there, he was pretty much losing his mind as well.
And so on and so forth. Which you can say, fairly, that much of
the same happens to Angel at one point or another, and sometimes
worse. And this would be true. But Angel's got more resources
to draw on than Wes does. Angel can do more, can survive more.
If Angel gets knocked down and gets back up again to fight another
day, it's heroic, certainly, but he's also an immortal, who always
gets the girl (if only temporarily), who has a son, and super
strength, and the ability to do a 30-foot-tall backflip from a
standing position and take a metal rod through the shoulder. Wes
is just a guy. He started out as a goof, and a klutz, and a walking
(sometimes motorcycle-riding) joke, the guy who'd only faced vampires
"under controlled circumstances" before, the guy who
spent the whole gigantic fight in "Graduation Day" on
his back, asking for help and aspirin.
Consequently, I'm more impressed when Wes gets up to fight again.
He loses, and loses, and loses some more, and he still fights.
So yeah. He's a hero. He died trying to take Vail out. But he
was a hero well before that, just for showing up.
So I'm hoping that Illryia was only lying about lying, and he
and Fred are somewhere in Buffy's heaven feeling warm and safe
and taken care of. And possibly Fred's got a leather-covered paddle,
considering the Mistress Spanksalot comment. Whatever he wants.
Anything at all.
[clears throat] Anybody got a kleenex?
[> [> Completely agree about Jasmine; GT was brilliant.
-- Ixchel (just passing through), 15:42:19 05/22/04 Sat
Thinking about the mora demon...(spoilers)
-- ANGEL FAN, 21:47:22 05/20/04 Thu
Ok after i posted my last message, i started to think about the
mora demon... I mean is there just one in the world? I remember
Doyle saying "its A mora demon" and not "its THE
mora demon". So i mean if theres more than one, cant Angel
just find one and mix their blood together or could he have kept
some of the dead mora demon's blood for future purposes (like
rebecoming human)???
When you think about it,this takes away a lot of importance from
the Shangshu prophecy knowing that Angel could have been human
whenever he wanted to or almost.
Then again maybe the mora demon episode is about more than i thought:I
mean it links to the series finale: Angel giving up his chance
at humanity for a greater good.Also, Angel's character has been
about getting redemption...and he could do more good as a vampire
then as a human...sort of...depends how you look at it.
I guess my question is why hasnt the issue of the mora demon come
up in other episodes? I think its a loose end, especially with
the Shangshu prophecy issue. Maybe its just was more convenient
to not mention the mora demon again or has it been mentionned
and i dont know about it (very, very, very doudtfull)?
anyways i was just thinking.....
Replies:
[> Re: Thinking about the mora demon...(spoilers) --
Charles Phipps, 12:03:09
05/22/04 Sat
Well the obvious answer is finding a Mora Demon is something that
isn't exactly a cake walk. Angel has responsibilities in L.A.
Also, becoming human is a BAD idea right now
Angel could also at any time transfer his soul into the body of
a human like that old guy and stake him.
Giles/ Ripper & Ben (Spoilers
- Buffy S5 ) -- meritaten, 22:02:24 05/21/04 Fri
I've seen a lot of references lately to Giles' killing of Ben.
There seems to be a feeling that he used his former persona of
Ripper to deal with this in some way. I can see why this idea
makes sense, but what in the episode leads to this conclusion?
What is this assumption based on?
-Just wondering what I missed.
Replies:
[> Re: Giles/ Ripper & Ben (Spoilers - Buffy S5 ) --
Wizard, 00:26:32 05/22/04 Sat
I don't know. Maybe it's that Giles removed his glasses before
killing Ben. The only time we see Giles without them is when he's
about to do something very very naughty/badass, like killing a
defenseless guy whose only crime was unwillingly harbouring a
Hellgod (yes, I know, but that's all that Giles knew at the time).
[> [> Oh, no -- KdS, 00:29:03 05/22/04 Sat
Immediately before killing Ben he made a very big production of
putting them on, as if forcing himself to clearly see what he
was doing.
[> [> [> (Watches The Gift again) D'oh! You're right!
My bad! -- Wizard, 13:56:24 05/22/04 Sat
[> [> Re: Giles/ Ripper & Ben--for Wizard -- ghady,
03:46:48 05/22/04 Sat
What do you mean by "(yes, I know, but that's all that Giles
knew at the time)"?
[> [> [> Re: Giles/ Ripper & Ben--for Wizard --
LittleBit, 07:04:44 05/22/04 Sat
While we, the audience, knew that Ben had been willing to sacrifice
Dawn for that slim chance that he would survive Glory's return
to her home dimension, no one other than Dawn knew it in the show.
So when Giles killed Ben it was only because of the potential
threat that if Ben lived Glory could 'escape' again.
[> [> [> [> Re: Giles/ Ripper & Ben--for Wizard
-- Charles Phipps,
12:19:06 05/22/04 Sat
My opinion is Giles wasn't hiding from what he was doing. Ripper
is a mask but Giles is also a man capable of murder. His revenge
for Jenny Calender wasn't Ripper, it was Giles.
[> [> [> [> Exactly. I should have been clearer.
-- Wizard, 13:53:31 05/22/04 Sat
Pylea and Season 5 (Spoilers
up to 5:22) -- KdS, 00:35:05 05/22/04 Sat
In a way S5 is sort of a rerun of the Pylea episodes. Angel's
placed in exactly the same position by W&H as Cordelia is by the
Covenant, supposedly in charge but actually powerless to stop
the real evil that's going on. Fred's ambiguous death echoes Lorne's
decapitation, and the question of whether Drogyn's death is justified
echoes Wesley sacrificing the rebels as a diversion.
Showdown at the Hyperion...
part one....spoilers for Angel series finale. -- Rufus, 00:44:52
05/22/04 Sat
The last episode of Angel is a classic showdown between good and
evil. The players are a mixture of human and demon, the final
arena the alley behind the Hyperion. It's a mixture of Butch
and Sundance and The Wild Bunch. There is no optimistic
tone to this episode as Angel has made it clear that most likely
they will all die. So, what point is dying for something you can't
win but only hold off for a time?
From "The Writers Journey:
In Westerns, Crime fiction, and many action films, the Resurrection
is expressed as the biggest confrontation and battle of the story,
the showdown or shootout. A showdown pits hero and villains
in an ultimate contest with the highest possible stakes, life
and death. It's the classic gunfight of the Western, the swordfight
of the swashbuckler, or the last acrobatic battle of a martial
arts movie. It may even be a courtroom showdown or an emotional
"shootout" in a domestic drama.
The showdown is a distinct dramatic form with its own rules and
conventions. The operatic climaxes of the Sergio Leone "spaghetti
Westerns" exaggerate the elements of the conventional showdown:
the dramatic music; the opposing forces marching towards each
other in some kind of arena (the town street, a corral, a cemetery,
the villains hideout); the close ups of guns, hands, and eyes
poised for the decisive moment; the sense that time stands still.
In "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" the heroes are
cornered in an adobe building, surrounded and outnumbered. They
run out to face death in a climax that is delayed to the final
seconds of the film. The chances are good they're going to die
in a hail of bullets, but they'll go down fighting and are granted
immortality by a final freeze-frame, which makes them live on
in our memories. In "The Wild Bunch" the heroes
are elaborately killed, but their energy lives on in a gun
which is picked up by another adventurer who we know will carry
on in their wild style. by Christopher Vogler
"Not Fade Away" is a mixture of the two movies where
we do get to see some characters die in graphic ways just before
the final fight. We also know that at the least Lorne and Connor
live on to perhaps carry on or tell the tale of those who fought
and died. The Apocalypse is started by Angel in his time frame
and place of choosing. How many times has there been an apocalypse?
Why do they keep happening?
Apocalypse: The other term in the title is "apocalypse."
Apokalypsis is just the Greek word that was used for the Book
of Revelation which is also more simply called the Apocalypse;
in general the term means "revelation". But, specifically,
it refers to the "uncovering of what has been hidden."
The root is the verb kalypto, which means "to cover or to
hide"; the prefix is the preposition, apo, which means "away
or from." So, apokalypsis means "to take the cover away"
from what had been secret or covered - revealing thereby what
had previously been invisible. Yet according to general usage,
the term "apocalypse" has taken on the larger meaning
of the "coming of deity to assert sovereignty" - or
the coming of a Messiah to judge, to reward or punish humanity.
Archetype of the Apocalypse by Edward F. Edinger.
The Senior Partners have been forced to move against Angel in
a way the will punish those around him, but is it the end of the
world as they know it? I doubt it as there is a missing element
and that is the forces of light that seem to have decided to sit
this showdown out. Buffy and her people no longer trust Angel
and the result is Angel and his gang are on their own to carry
out a showdown with a powerful force with no obvious help from
the Powers that Be or any other Warrior for light. This is no
chick fight, it's a testosterone filled gun/sword/fist fight.
The Stoics, for example, imagined the universe to be an
infinite series of cyclical cosmic periods in which the apocatastasis
was the final stage of an old period and the beginning of a new
one. Archetype of the Apocalypse by Edward F. Edinger.
That sounds rather familiar. In season four we had the Episode
"Slouching Towards Bethlehem" a fragment of the poem
by Yeats. Yeats has something similar to Edinger about cycles
and history.
The Second Coming. In Christian legend the prophesiced "Second
Coming" may refer to Christ or to AntiChrist. Yeats believed
in a cyclical theory of history in which on historical era would
be replaced by an opposite kind of era every two thousand years.
Literature, Structure, Sound and Sense
4th edition Perrine
Angel is supposed to have a part in this apocalypse, and he finally
made a choice about how he would participate in it. He's decided
to go for wound instead of the kill, mainly cause the Senior Partners
are too strong. He can only hope to cause them some discomfort.
To get to the Senior Partners, Angel has to deal with The Circle
of the Black Thorn.
Gunn: We taken 'em all at once?
Angel: Can't. Circle of the Black Thorn is the most powerful group
in this plane of existance. Together, they'd vaporize us. But
separated...they're just demons.
Break up the circle and it's not as strong. To do that Angel had
to make it look like his power circle of friends had broken up.
The next bit of news helped make that look easier.
Angel: Drogyn is dead.
Spike: And how do you know that....Kreskin?
Angel: Because I killed him.
Spike: What? Ow! You son of a --
Hamilton: Sorry, I didn't know you were in conference.
Angel: I was just making a closing statement - unless somebody
didn't hear me. ...you too Wes, Illyria's your responsibility.
Make sure she doesn't get twitchy.
Hamilton: Well, you've got yourself a problem.
Angel: Nothing you have to worry about.
Hamilton: Oh, not me, your new friends The Black Thorn, they're
very concerned.
Angel: Tell them to send me a memo. I'm busy trying to run a business.
Hamilton: You can tell them yourself. They want to see you right
now...no rest for the wicked.
Now, if the Black Thorne isn't just a bit full of themselves.
They have a pre-meeting chant.
All: Of the world's woe now convene. All is bound by the circle
and its thorns. Invisible -- Inviolate We, the seeds of
the storm at the center of the world's woe now convene.
Angel manages to look his Angelus best. Bored silly with the pretentious
crap...be it Angel or Angelus...neither likes ceremony. Join a
club and find out you now have a whole new set of eyes on everything
you do. As an employee, Angel was just part of the machine, none
the wiser for what the invisible thorns were up to. Now they get
to exhibit some buyers remorse over their newest member.
Angel: My people are the problem?
Sebassis: Some of them, yes.
Angel: Some? Who missed the cut?
Vail: We're interested in Mr. Wyndam-Pryce. He seems intriguingly
unstable.
Senator: Mr Gunn on the other hand does not. Which is a pity,
he had so much potential.
Sebassis: He is not however our greatest concern.
Angel: If the next words out of your mouth are "Kill Spike"
we just might have to kiss.
Sebassis: Spike is not the threat, you are. You've proven your
loyalty to the circle. Regretably, there is something stronger
than loyalty....hope.
Angel: This is the Shan shu prophecy.
Sebassis: The original.
Senator: The vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in the
apocalypse.
Vail: And as a reward - will become human. -- A paranoid person
might think you're trying to manipulate us in an attempt to fulfill
this prophecy.
Angel: I have not desire to become human.
Sebassis: Oh good. Then you won't mind signing that pesky future
away. Through that document, the prophecy can be undone. Your
signature there will remove any opportunity that you will ever
earn your once-precious humanity. Will you sign it?
Angel: Of course.
If you believe Sebassis, the Shan shu is now a no can do. Angel
has a fight that he needs help in so the thought of humanity though
tempting, no longer has the same pull. The reward is no longer
the thing Angel seeks. He wants something that will take a gang
to get done.
Lindsey: You gotta be joking. Why in Gods and verdant earth
would I trust you. Or you trust me.
Angel: Cause it's not about us Lindsey. It's about them - The
Wolf - The Ram - The Hart. The one's we've been fighting about
forever.
Lindsey: You can't beat 'em.
Angel: Maybe they're not there to be beat. Maybe they're
there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human
beings so remarkably strong.
Lindsey: You're not talking about the kind of strength human beings
have. It's not about coveting your neighbours ass, your buddy's
job, the last malomar in the box. You're talking about fighting
flesh and something that passes for blood demons, with enormous
power. And they will mow you down.
Angel: Maybe, but I keep thinking...that once this world was
theirs and now it's not.
Lindsey: Isn't it?
Angel: Give me the hell on earth speech Lindsey. I know how bad
things are. How much sway the demons hold. I happen to be the
greatest mass murderer you've ever met.
Lindsey: Never given you props for that have I?
Angel: There's always going to be power and there's always going
to be corruption.
Lindsey: So, again I ask you.
Angel: Cause it's not what I'm expected to do - cause you're good
in a fight. And let's say we come up rollin 7's and this does
go our way, we tear up this firm and someone's going to have to
step in. And I know that's what you want. And I'm a lot more comfortable
with the thought of you in that position than anyone else.
Lindsey: The devil you know.
It's the apocalypse, but as we already know there is always an
apocalypse. If you listen to what Yeats said about history, spirals,
gyres, then the only thing an apocalypse can do is reverse the
current power structure only to eventually have it all happen
again, and again, and again. The apocalypse only serves to create
a new order, but nothing stays the same, change is always around
the corner. Wolfram and Hart is about balancing the scales of
power in their favour, no matter who has purchase over the earth.
They attempt to steer the flow in the direction they want through
manipulation. The Circle of the Black Thorne are their instrument
on this plane to achieve what they want. A new cycle is about
to begin, and Wolfram and Hart gambled hoping that Angel would
be the deciding factor in their favor.
Angel tells the group that he killed Drogyn. Gunn gets it but
it's normal to wonder just how many bodies it takes to create
a feeling of security for the Black Thorn. Angel has decided to
take care of that by killing them all that very night.
Angel: I want you all to do something for me, for yourselves.
Take the day off.
Spike: What?
Gunn: Angel, if we're planning to assassinate the Power Elite
of the Apocalypse tonight, shouldn't we be Cowboying up?
Angel: We'll be ready. But today. I want you guys to go out, live.
Do whatever you want. Live the day like it's your last...cause
it probably is.
The next scenes show just how far the characters have come through
the journey through the Belly of the Beast. Each person/demon
reveals who they are by what they decide to do with the time Angel
gave them before the showdown.
We first see Lorne, in the spotlight, Seabreeze in hand, doing
what makes him feel alive. He sings:
Lorne: If I ruled the world. Everyday would be the first day
of spring. Every heart would have a new song to sing. And we'd
sing of the joy every new morning would bring.
Angel goes into a coffee shop and we see he has gone to be with
his son, the one that he made the deal to work for Wolfram and
Hart for. Spike, well Spike gets himself a stiff drink, or three,
or a dozen.
Bartender: It can get pretty ugly in here, I gotta warn you.
Spike: What I'm after. Couple more shots of courage, and I may
make my presence felt.
Bartender: Your funeral.
Spike: Well, I never had a proper one.
Gunn finds Anne, hard at work for the street kids. She hasn't
changed at all. It's Anne that answers a question for Gunn.
Gunn: What if I told you, it doesn't help. What would you do
if you found out none of it matters. That it's all controlled
by forces more powerful and uncaring than we can conceive. And
that they will never let it get better down here, what would you
do.
Anne: I'd get the truck packed before the new stuff gets here.
Want to give me a hand?
Gunn: I do.
Anne went Camus on Gunn and soothed him by showing him that all
that matters sometimes is what you do instead of worrying about
what everyone else is doing. The world can be a horrible, unfair,
cruel place, and it's what we to either contribute to the woes
of the world or make things better that counts. Who cares if in
the end it doesn't matter? I think Gunn is on the same page as
Anne. He helps her with the work she does, eases her burden, helps.
The scene between Illyria and Wes is touching because Illyria
loves Wes and he can only see that she is not Fred. He can only
feel the pain of her loss and the constant sight of her shell
is confusing. But Wes is the Frodo of the bunch in that he has
always been so hopeful that everyone from Angel to a former God-King
could be brought back to a place of humanity, caring for others.
Illyria: I don't understand.
Wes: It'll help you heal faster. If you really plan to join us
in this fight-
Illyria: I will fight, I've been broken and humiliated. I will
return in kind every blow, every sting. I will shred my adversaries.
Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towords their mewling,
mutilatedfaces.
Wes: You're a very inspirational person, have I told you that?
Illyria: You are what I don't understand.
Wes: And that would be different because?
Illyria: Angel told you to do whatever you wanted. Today, tonight
you may all be dead.
Wes: Yes, good point.
Illyria: I am not what you want. (I have to add she seems pained
over that knowledge)
Wes: No.
Illyria: Then why?
Wes: Don't I go off and have on last perfect day, smell the flowers,
or sky dive. Or have a go with Mistress Spanks-a-lot? Or whatever
the hell one is supposed to do in this situation.
Illyria: Mistress who?
Wes: There is no perfect day for me - Illyria. There is no sunset,
or painting, or finely aged Scotch....that's going to sum up my
life and make tonight any....there is nothing I want.
Illyria: You want to be with Fred.
Wes: Yes, yes, that's where I'd be if I could.
Illyria: I could assume her shape, make her come alive again this
once for you. (then sadly) But you would never ask me to.
Wes: First lesson a Watcher learns is to separate truth from illusion.
Because in the world of magics, it's the hardest thing to do.
The truth is that Fred is gone. To pretend anything else would
be a lie. And since I don't actually intend to die tonight, I
won't accept a lie.
Both characters are so lonely. Illyria can't understand exactly
what her feelings are for Wes, but she seems to long for him to
accept her. To allow herself to be humiliated by assuming the
shape of Fred, I feel she showed just how infected with humanity
she could be becoming. Illyria wants to make Wes happy. He can
never be happy again without Fred.
Then we are back to Spike. In a darkened room we can see that
Spike has a microphone in his hand...could he be going out Karaoke?
Spike: "My soul is wrapped in harsh repose. - Midnight
descends in raven coloured clothes. - But soft, behold! - A sunlight
beam, cutting a swath of glittering gleam. - My heart expands,
tis grown a bulge in it. - Inspired by your beauty....effulgent."
(remember back to Fool for Love and the words he said to the butler
at that party)
Man in Crowd: Yeah! That was great man.
Spike: Thank you. That was for Cecily. All right the next one's
called "The Wanton Folley of me mum."
Lorne sings, Gunn returns to where he began helping other street
kids, Spike reads poetry. Wes helps Illyria. Fred is gone but
maybe being around her shell comfort him in ways he can't understand.
Angel meets his son.
Connor: I know you're my father.
Angel: You got your memories back.
Connor: And they're mixed up in there with the new ones. Kind
of like a bad dream I had, I guess. A very strange and violent,
at times inappropriately erotic dream.
Angel: You probably have a lot of questions.
Connor: No, I don't want to make a thing. I get what you did -
you know. And I'm grateful. That's as far as I want to take it...OK?
It's simple (and I remember comparing Connor and Dawn earlier
in the season) Connor got his memories back but the time he spent
with a loving family helped create a healthy young man. The one
thing that could be pointed out is the fact that the family could
have gotten their memories back as well, and in them Connor didn't
exist til recently. I have to think that it would be a similar
situation to Buffy and Joyce. The created memories make each person
feel like they belong to the other. With the truth out they simply
decide to accept each other as family.
We end with Lindsey and Eve together. Eve is nervous about the
whole thing. The words from Lorne didn't much help her.
Eve: I don't believe Angel trusts you.
Lindsey: It ain't about that, love. It's about what he needs and
right now he needs every hand he can get. So, as long as I'm fighting
on his side, he'll play me fair. When the smoke clears, then we'll
see where we stand.
End of Part One
PS. part 2 will be a few days
Replies:
[> Thanks, lots of good stuff in there -- Ames, 07:04:16
05/22/04 Sat
[> Thanks for this. Looking forward to PII! -- tomfool,
07:35:35 05/22/04 Sat
[> Re: Showdown at the Hyperion... part one....spoilers
for Angel series finale. -- purplegrrl, 12:31:17 05/22/04
Sat
Wow! You've done it again. Can't wait until part 2. I need to
go and watch the finale again, and again.
[> [> Re: Showdown at the Hyperion... part one....spoilers
for Angel series finale. -- Jane, 16:36:03 05/22/04 Sat
Wonderful! I watched Not Fade Away again last night, and was just
as shattered by it as the first time. But I loved seeing how each
person chose to spend his/her final hours before battle. It showed
so much about them. Spike finally getting the recognition he craved
as William, Gunn reconnecting with his street family, Angel and
Connor reconciling,Lorne singing again, and poor,tired, lost Wesley
rejecting the false image of Illyria as Fred.
Watching the final scene, I think the expression on Angel's face
was one of acceptance and hope. Didn't matter whether he survived
or not. He'd done his best to fulfill his destiny, to fight for
Light against the Dark.
[> [> [> Spike....spoilers for Angel series finale
-- Rufus, 19:07:54 05/22/04 Sat
This year was the gang's journey though the Belly of the Beast.
This means that some sort of transformation could occur. Each
character was tempted with something they yearned for. Fred got
an up to date lab, Wesley got unlimited knowledge through books,
Gunn got more brains. Spike was thrown into the mix and created
chaos as usual. He wasn't offered much of anything. Angel suffered
Spikes presence. Both wanted the Shan shu, both wanted Buffy.
The competition was the thing with both. It ended with both guys
still bickering like kids, but Spike's story proved that his death
in "Chosen" wasn't a fluke. Spike still chose to fight
for good because he wanted to. No Buffy, no power, no riches.
Spike was a good man, sometimes an immature man, but his innate
goodness informed everything he eventually chose to do.
[> Showdown at the Hyperion....conclusion spoilers for Angel
Series Finale -- Rufus, 18:56:38 05/22/04 Sat
Battles come and go. Somewhere, someone is battling over something.
Seems we can only get along with each other for so long before
someone decides to settle an argument with force. Angel has come
to that point where the only thing left to him is to fight, even
if it costs him his Shan shu, and un-dead existence.
Angel: This may come out a little pretentious but...one of
you will betray me (Spike raises his hand) Wes.
Spike: Oh, can I deny you 3 times?
Angel: Vail is the Sorcerer of the bunch, you know that game,
you've seen his place, and he believes you'd make a play for my
spot.
Wes: That's not very flattering.
Angel: It'll get you in the door. Illyria - Izzerial, the Devil
and three other members of the Circle dine together almost every
night.
Illyria: I'll make trophies of their spines. (gee, with the tail,
that will be one long trophy)
Angel: Good to have you on the team...Gunn.
Gunn: Yo!
Angel: Your friend, Senator Bruckner has a campaign office in
West LA. You already know she's pure hell-spawn and she
tends to surround herself with vampires.
Gunn: I was hoping it'd be vamps, I haven't dusted nearly enough
this year....(to Spike and Angel) No offence.
Spike: That's all right.
Angel: Spike.
Spike: Right. First off, I'm not wearing any amulets, no braclets,
broaches, beads, pendants, pins, or rings.
Angel: Fine, all you need is a rattle.
Spike: Ahh, the baby.
Angel: And a legion of the Fell Bretheren. I want the kid returned
to it's mother and the foster family dismembered.
Spike: Done and done.
Angel: Archduke Sebassis has over 40 thousand demons at his command.
The other members of the council fear him. He's the key player,
so he's mine. Lorne.
Lorne: Uh, I'm not a fighter, Angel-wings. I never had the stomach
for it. Looks like I'm your weak link.
Angel: I just need you to back up Lindsey.
The basic plan is set in motion. Each player has a task before
the big brawl at the end. To cripple the Senior Partners on this
plane, Angel has decided to break it up by taking out all the
leaders in the Circle of the Black Thorn. Thing is that there
seems to be no chance of anyone making it out alive from that
final confrontation when the Senior Partners figure out they have
a serious problem.
Gunn: So, I guess we're not going back to the office after
this.
Angel: The Alley just North of the Hyperion. Everyone who makes
it meets there. If we do any damage at all, the Senior Partners
are gonna rain hell down on us. So be ready.
Lorne: Hey, Ange...Uh...I'll do this last thing for you -- for
us -- but then I'm out, and you won't find me in the alley afterwards.
Hell, you won't find me at all. Do me a favor, don't try.
Gunn: They day went fast, huh?
Illyria: Try not to die. You are not unpleasant to my eyes.
Lorne is only prepared to go so far before he ducks for cover.
He has never been a warrior, and that is part of the reason he
loved LA so much, it was so far away from Pylea and all that battle.
He is a lounge lizard/demon, not a warrior. The jobs begin with
Vail...
Vail: I'm curious, what makes you think I won't kill you where
you sit?
Wes: Because you're smarter than the others. Smart enough to have
your doubts about Angel, and rightly so. He's unpredictable and
worse, he has a conscience.
Vail: Well, you make a very persuasive argument.
Wes: Wait (he produces a fire ball of energy in his hand) It gets
better.
Vail believes Wes for the moment because he assumes that Wesley
is not only unstable, but corrupt. Angel goes to his apartment
and reaches into a box and produces a sickle. Hmmm a smaller version
of a scythe. Smaller weapon, smaller apocalypse perhaps? Hamilton
is on to him, thanks to Harmony.
Hamilton: Going out?
Angel: Why, you wanna order in?
Hamilton: I hear you already have plans. Gonna take that when
you visit Sebassis? Why don't I think that's a gift?
(Hamilton throws Angel through the windows. Angel lands in the
main lobby of his offices where Harmony is standing)
Angel finds that someone has betrayed him for real. Harmony proves
that she has learned nothing from the first time she betrayed
Angel.
Angel: I knew you'd turn on me. I just didn't know when.
Harmony: What do you mean you knew?
Angel: Loyalty, really isn't high on your list.
Harmony: Oh, is that right. I'll have you know, I am damn loyal,
dumb-ass.
Angel: You betrayed me. You are betraying me now, even as we are
talking.
Harmony: Because you never have any confidence in me.
Angel: No, because you have no soul.
Harmony: I would if you had confidence in me.
That ended the most absurd conversation of the evening and offered
just a bit of comedy before the end. The pairing of Hamilton and
Harmony shouldn't be a surprise as both are superficial characters
with inflated views of their value.
Hamilton is the bigger, stronger, less emotional version of Eve.
He is no little girl, and as for falling in love, it simply doesn't
fit into his schedule. Hamilton is also representative of what
Gunn thought he was, just muscle. Hamilton proves to have less
brains than Gunn. He has a definite opinion about Angel and finds
that now is the time to let loose.
Hamilton: The Senior Partner's have expended an awful lot of
time and resources on you. Personally, I would have told them
not to bother. You're gutter trash and that's where you should
have stayed. Drinking and whoring your way through and unremarkable
life. But the fates stepped in and made you a vampire. With a
soul, no less. A Champion, a hero of the people and yet
you still managed to fail everyone around you....Doyle, Cordelia,
Fred. They're all gone, now it's time you followed. Did you really
think you were going to kill Archduke Sebassis.
Angel: No...I think I already did. I spiked his drink.
Hamilton has no imagination, like Harmony. Harmony, however, has
golden horseshoes up the bottom. She seems to flutter through
any problems, landing on her feet. She is evil, but evil with
a slightly smaller "e". Hamilton is just smart enough
to be used by the Senior Partners, but not so smart that he would
consider trying to make a power play of his own. No surprise the
Partner's have more interest in someone with more initiative.
While Angel is getting whupped by Hamilton, Spike is over fetching
the baby from his foster family. Again with the slightest humour,
the baby is saved...
Spike: Hello, junior - the name's Spike, and lucky for you
I'm on a strict diet.
The battle briefly goes back to Wes and Vail. Vail is getting
the upper fire-ball and promises to show Wes exactly what a Wizard
can do. But Angel is getting a lecture from Hamilton, who asks
the question asked earlier in the season.
Hamilton: Why do you keep fighting? You signed away your Shan
shu. There's nothing in it for you anymore.
Angel: People who don't care about anything will never understand
the people who do
Hamilton: (in a Harmony moment) Yeah, but we won't care.
Hamilton is winning the fight and prepares to stake Angel, which
as most other dead adversaries is the most dangerous times in
a battle. With the gleam of victory in his eyes, Hamilton prepares
to trouble-shoot Angel into dust when he is sent flying across
the room by CONNOR!!! Just after Angel speaks of having something
to care about, Connor enters the fight. Hamilton cares for nothing,
nobody and because of that is weak. Angel has something more precious
to lose than the Shan shu and that is Connor. The new Connor with
the blended memories is the young man Angel dreamed of having
as his son. He also has a bit of a sense of humour he definitely
lacked in season four.
Connor: Care about that? Dress-for-less?
Angel: What the hell are you doing here?
Connor: Come on. You drop by for a cup of coffee and the world's
not ending. Please.
Caring. That seems to be the difference between a lost soul and
what Connor has become. The memories he was given have helped
him reconcile himself to his real past. He can compare the life
with Holtz with the one with his present family, and because he
now understands how to live in this world instead of the Quor
toth, he is grateful for Angel's choice.
The biggest surprise was Lorne. He has been the "life of
the party", the guy behind the microphone. He left Pylea
to escape the type of goings on that he has been forced into with
Angel. He may understand why his is fighting, but he simply can
no longer do it. His last 'job' is Lindsey. Never take for granted
the guy who is green.
Lindsey: No, I mean me saying team and meaning it. I kind of
like the feeling.
Lorne: Yeah, today.
Lindsey: You really done with them?
Lorne: It isn't my kind of work anymore. It's unsavory.
Lindsey: Gee, I think it's just getting interesting.
Lorne: Yeah, I bet you do.
Lindsey: You don't trust me. You don't think a man can change?
Lorne: It's not about what I think. This was Angel's plan.
Lindsey: Come on. I could sing for you.
Lorne: I've heard you sing. (he shoots Lindsey twice)
Lindsey: Why?....why did you?
Lorne: One last job. You're not part of the solution, you never
will be.
Lindsey: You kill me! A flunky??? I'm not just, Angel kills me...you...Angel.
Lorne: Goodnight folks- (he drops the gun as he leaves)
Lorne has heard Lindsey many times as we know from season 2 "Dead
End". He understands Lindsey in a way that Angel does. Men
can change, but some can only change so much before their need
for some sort of gain gets in the way. Lindsey is just too darn
smart and good with a sword to leave alone. His need for power
comes from some past slight (he did mention his father) will always
pollute his best intentions. Lorne did that one last job and I
suspect will inhabit some lounge somewhere. He just won't risk
being high profile enough to be found again.
The next part is the hardest to write because Wes has been a part
of Angel's life since season one. He is a mixture of buffoon and
dark man and Frodo with so much hope for a better life for not
just himself but for everyone.
Vail: Did you really think you had a shot at this? I can bend
the very fabric of reality to my will. Your parlour tricks could
never kill me, boy.
Wes: Then I'll just have to do this the old fashioned way.
Vail: Yes, I suppose we will. (he summons a large knife from the
wall, stabs Wes, and twists the blade to be sure he has done the
job. Wes summons up one more ball of energy which sends Vail flying)
(Illyria enters the room and runs to Wes)
Illyria: Wesley, this wound is mortal.
Wes: Aren't we all. It was good that you came.
Illyria: I killed all mine, and I was...
Wes: Concerned?
Illyria: I think so. I can't help. You'll be dead within moments.
Wes: I know.
Illyria: Would you like me to lie to you now?
Wes: Yes, thank you, yes.
(a flesh coloured hand touches Wes's face and the illusion begins)
Wes: Hello there.
Illyria: Oh Wesley. My Wesley.
Wes: Fred...(he can only whisper) I've missed you.
Illyria: (she tenderly kisses Wes and begins to cry) It's gonna
be OK. It won't hurt much longer. And then you'll be where I am.
We'll be together.
Wes: I---I love you. (he dies)
Illyria: I love you -- my love, oh my love.
(Illyria gently places Wesley's body on the floor and turns to
find Vail)
Vail: How very touching, his meaningless death was. But this fight
was never for mortals. Oh -- take your best shot little girl.
(Illyria as Fred reaches back to strike Vail, as she gains forward
momentum the flesh freezes back to Blue and Vail finds out the
last second of his life that he was now in a battle with something
more than met his eyes. Illyria pounds Vail's face into fragments
with one blow)
The death of Wes and the grief of Illyria was the best part of
this episode. Wes has become so much more than a prissy Watcher
and his changes have allowed him to understand Angel's predicament
better than any other character in the show. His hope that Angel
would be a Champion, help humanity has been at times child-like
but genuine. The loss of Fred drained him of hope for himself.
He continued on helping her shell integrate into this world. Illyria
never understood love until she lost her new guide in this world.
Her longing for Wes to care for her as she did him was rewarded
when he simply said "It was good that you came". Illyria
is an unrealized character who had a story worth telling but we
will never know now that Angel as a series is over. Her grief
is so new as an experience that she simply can't understand it
and no longer has Wes to help her. Illyria may have lied to Wes
by assuming the guise of Fred, but her declaration of love was
real.
Angel is still battling Hamilton with the help of Connor.
Hamilton: Let me say this as clearly as I can. You can not
beat me. I am part of them...the Wolf, Ram, and Hart. Their strength
flows through my veins. My blood is filled with their ancient
power.
Angel: (with a new twinkle of recognition to his eyes) Can you
pick out the one word there, you probably shouldn't have said?
(Angel grabs Hamilton and takes a drink of vintage blend of Senior
Partner and minion)
Angel: Wow! You really are full of it. What was that you were
saying about ancient power?
Hamilton: You don't really think you are going to win this do
you? You don't stand a chance. We are Legion. We are forever!
Angel: Then I guess forever -- just got a hell of a lot shorter.
Angel send Hamilton back to some hell. The Senior Partners seem
to awaken at Hamilton's death and the building begins to rumble
and shake. Connor wants to stay and help his dad. Angel has another
idea.
Angel: Wolfram and Hart look like they're taking the gloves
off.
Connor: What do we do?
Angel: You go home.
Connor: Huh?
Angel: This is my fight.
Connor: That's some serious macho...ahhhhh!
Angel: Go home now!
Connor: They'll destroy you..
Angel: As long as you're OK, they can't, Go!
Connor leaves and Angel goes to fetch Eve from the office where
they met.
Eve: What the hell is going on?
Angel: Looks like we're getting kicked out of the garden, Eve.
Eve: Where's Lindsey, where is he?
Angel: He's not coming for you.
Eve: (realizing Lorne had told her the truth) You!
Angel: Time to go.
Eve: Go where?
Eve was out of time, out of immortality, and she has nowhere to
go. But Angel heads to his meeting point. He arrives at the alley
and a ghost speaks.
Spike: Boo!
Angel: Anyone else?
Spike: Not so far. You feel the heat?
Angel: It's comin.
Spike: Finally got ourselves a decent brawl.
Gunn: (runs up, he is injured, bleeding) Damn! How did I know
the fang boys would pull through. You're lucky we're on the same
side dogs. Cause I was on fire tonight. My game was...tight.
Spike: You're supposed to wear that red stuff on the inside, Charly
boy.
Gunn: Any word on Wes?
Illyria: Wesley's dead. I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem
to control it. I wish to do more violence.
Spike: (with the words he used earlier this year) Well, wishes
just happen to be horses today -- among other things.
(A horde of demons approach, there are thousands of them, in the
air, a dragon descends)
Gunn: OK, you take the 30 thousand on the left.
Illyria: You're fading, you'll last 10 minutes at best.
Gunn: Then let's make it memorable.
Spike: Any terms of a plan?
Angel: We fight.
Spike: Bit more specific.
Angel: Well, personally -- I kind of want to slay the Dragon
(in a command that echo's Buffy's words to Dawn in the Gift) Let's
go to work.
(The gang burst into the battle, the screen goes black)
I find Angel's last statement about wanting to slay the Dragon
was a wonderful end to the series. It's about Good versus Evil
and the Dragon is the representative of the evil of Wolfram and
Hart as well as the personal demons Angel has fought over the
5 years.
Dragon: The dragon, stands for 'things animal' par excellence
and here we have a first glimpse of its symbolic meaning, related
to the Sumerian concept of the animal as the 'adversary',
a concept which later came to be attached to the devil.
In a great many legends, overlaying its deepest symbolic sense,
the dragon appears with this very meaning of the primordial enemy
with whom combat is the supreme test. Apollo, Cadmus, Perseus
and Siegfried all conquer the dragon.
But, broadly speaking, present-day psychology defines the dragon-symbol
as 'something terrible to overcome', for only he who conquers
the dragon becomes a hero.
....dragons and bulls are the animals fought by sun-heroes
(such as Mithras, Siegfried, Hercules, Jason, Horus, or Apollo).
A Dictionary of Symbols by J.E> Cirlot
Dragon: Basically dragons are seen as strict guardians or as
symbols of evil and of diabolical tendencies.
In fact the dragon may be identified with the SERPENT as a diabolical
symbol and Origen confirms this identification in his commentary
on Psalm 74 (see LEVIATHAN). The breaking of 'the heads of serpents...[and]...of
leviathan in pieces' is Christ's victory over evil. In addition
to the well-known portrayals of St Michael or St George, Christ
himself is sometimes pictured crushing the dragon under food.
The Zen patriarch Hui Neng, too, made dragons and serpents emblems
of evil and hatred. When unshakeable Fudo-Myoo of Japanese
Buddhism overcame the dragon, in so doing he overcame ignorance
and darkness.
"The battle between the hero and
the dragon...shows more clearly the archtypal theme of the ego's
triumph over regressive trends. For most people the dark or negative
side of the personality remains unconscious. The hero, on the
contrary, must realize that the shadow exists and that he can
draw strength from it. He must come to terms with its destructive
powers if he is to become sufficiently terrible to overcome the
dragon: i.e. the ego can triumph, it must master and assimilate
the shadow."
(J.L. Henderson in JUNS pp. 120-1)
Henderson also quotes in this context Faust's acceptance of
Mephistopheles' challenge, the challenge of life, the challenge
of the unconscious. Through it and through what he has believed
to be the pursuit of evil, Faust sees salvation on the horizon.
The battles of St. George or of St Michael with the dragon, so
common a subject of artists, illustrate the perpetual struggle
of good with evil. In a wide variety of shapes and forms it
pervades every culture and every religion, not excepting dialectical
materialism in the guise of the class struggle. From The Penguin
Dictionary of Symbols
What started in Sunnydale and continued in the alley of 'Lullaby',
ended (?) in 'Not Fade Away'. Doyle, Cordy, Wes and others had
warned Angel that to be connected to the humanity he strived to
protect he had to take the chance of rejection and pain.
Then there is the subject of his Shan shu. Who needs one when
you have children to carry on for you. Humanity is remarkably
strong and part of that strength that has kept the darkness at
bay, is the ability to care for something more than power and
riches. Not everyone is like that, humans have their share of
villians, but overall, people band together to survive the darkness.
The dragon in "Not Fade Away" represented not only Wolfram
and Hart, but Angel's own personal struggle with evil. In fighting
the good fight, in deciding to go back to work, Angel continues
that struggle he began so long ago. This struggle never ends unless
he dies. But come again, if Angel dies it doesn't end as there
is still Connor. Angel said he would be all right as long as Connor
was alive. Most of all Angel fights to help realize the potential
that is the new generation, his son. As fathers dies the sons
live on in the continuous circle of life. The Black Thorne as
a symbol represented a circle opposed to life. In doing this work,
Angel has become as human as anyone with a heartbeat. He is protecting
what any person would protect.
So, what about Angel's redemption?
"By our interactions with each other we redeem us all."
ML Von Franz
That has never changed. Angel didn't do it alone. Every character,
demon he encountered have a place in his redemption. Redemption
is a continual process that is as eternal as the fight between
good and evil. By making the choice to fight, Angel has chosen
redemption. Season 5 tested Angel's patience and commitment to
fighting for good but in the end he again found his passion for
the eternal fight.
The
Toronto Star
"In past seasons, Angel had always been the loner hero
in one form or another and sometimes he'd been just a bad-ass
and sometimes he'd lost sight of his goal, but he was always just
a champion, fighting. This year was about, if you're inside of
a structure, be it corporal or societal, that is by its nature
corrupt, do you affect it or does it affect you?"
"I do not think of it as a cliffhanger at all. It is not
the end of all things. It is not a final grace note after a symphony,
the way Buffy was. We are definitely still in the thick of it,
but it is, and was meant to be, a final statement about Angel.
... The point of the show is, you're never done. Whoever survives
the show, to get that point, will embody it, but no matter who
goes on, the fight goes on." Joss Whedon
It's over. Angel the Series is over, but is it? Joss Whedon in
a TV Guide interview said this of his plans for the not to be
season six of Angel.
TV Guide
For Whedon, what makes the end even harder is that he'd already
conceived a terrific premise for Angel's sixth year. "When
you buck the system, and do your best to make it collapse,"
he teases, "what if it does? The next season would have been
some serious chaos." Now, that sounds like a story that
deserves to be told someday. Angel Creator's Finale Post-Mortem
by Ethan Alter
The only thing left is to thank the creator's, writers, and actors
connected with Angel the Series. I hope one day to hear their
stories again.
[> Loading up the truck in the face of an apocalypse....spoilers
for "Not Fade Away" -- Rufus, 18:53:54 05/24/04
Mon
What do you do when you have no control over the big picture?
Well that's where Anne said it best...you keep loading up that
truck. I'll use a few quotes from a Camus site.
Camus
"Thus, Sisyphus, by accepting his fate and creating from
it a personal challenge rather than sink into despair, is ultimately
free.He has chosen purpose over despair."
"For Camus, there are ultimately two choices in life - to
reject it (and accept suicide) or to rebel against it. The
heroes are those who do not run away. The heroes are truly
authentic."
Link to "The Myth of Sisyphus"
here.
In Power Play we heard Angel compare humanity to ants. That power
was the thing and nothing else mattered. In Not Fade Away we see
what heroes are, they are those who don't run away, they fight
on, even as they realize the fight will be eternal. They have
indeed chosen "purpose over despair". Anne is a different
kind of hero but a hero all the same. She dismisses what Gunn
said about nothing matters
by rejecting that statement and continuing to load that truck.
The fact that it doesn't matter, that she will work forever for
a world that may never change does not cause her despair. She
has chosen to continue on doing what she can for no ultimate reward
other than the work itself.
Now to what one does with the last day of their life. Well, each
character shows us just a glimpse of who they are by what they
did. Angel seeks out his son, his breathing Shan shu. For Angel,
the continued life of his son is an immortality worth fighting
for. Gunn helps Anne. Lorne sings of the springtime he longs for
away from
fighting. Wes tends to Illyria, if only to be close to the memory
of his love he can no longer have. Spike goes back to his roots
and goes to a poetry slam. The poem he uses a hybrid of the one
from Fool for Love....
"*SPIKE: (to himself)Luminous... oh, no, no, no. Irradiant's
better.
*SPIKE:Oh, quickly! I'm the very spirit of vexation. What's another
word for "gleaming"? It's a perfectly perfect word as
many words go but the bother is nothing rhymes, you see.
*ARISTOCRAT: Don't be shy. (reads).... "My heart xpands/'tis
grown a bulge in it/inspired by your beauty, effulgent."
(laughs) Effulgent?"
The past meets the future, and a more appreciative, and common
crowd.....
"*Spike: "My soul is wrapped in harsh repose. - Midnight
descends in raven coloured clothes. - But soft, behold! - A sunlight
beam, cutting a swath of glittering gleam. - My heart expands,
tis grown a bulge in it. - Inspired by your beauty....effulgent."
The line that speaks to the difference between a hero/authentic
person and one that is just existing...
*"Angel: People who don't care about anything will never
understand the people who do."
That sums things up, people who care. Each character that continues
on in a life that has no meaning and which may be at the mercy
of powers who are cruel, are the authentic/heroic people. This
doesn't mean they have to literally slay a dragon, but just continue
on, caring, doing their work. All that combined work can add up
to something wonderful. Humanity is strong because it works to
create something better than they have, fights against evil even
if the chances of an eternal win are remote. I think that was
a great way to end a show that was cancelled before it's time.
[> Re: Showdown at the Hyperion... part one....spoilers
for Angel series finale. -- anom, 21:02:04 05/24/04 Mon
I feel like everyone's taking their turn doing last analyses/commentaries!
Probably because they are.... So, Rufus, thanks for this & all
the ones before. As usual, I'm better at reacting than at...um,
expressing original thoughts.
"From 'The Writers Journey':
In Westerns, Crime fiction, and many action films, the Resurrection
is expressed as the biggest confrontation and battle of the story,
the showdown or shootout.... It may even be a courtroom showdown
or an emotional 'shootout' in a domestic drama."
I have to confess, I really don't understand how the showdown
expresses resurrection. Apocalypse, sure, in the sense of an apocalytic
battle btwn. good & evil, or at least us & them, but resurrection
(even less so in a courtroom or domestic drama)? Or even "the
larger meaning of the 'coming of deity to assert sovereignty'
- or the coming of a Messiah to judge, to reward or punish humanity"
(well, maybe in the courtroom drama)? Who or what is resurrected
in--after?--a showdown?
"I doubt it as there is a missing element and that is the
forces of light that seem to have decided to sit this showdown
out. Buffy and her people no longer trust Angel and the result
is Angel and his gang are on their own to carry out a showdown
with a powerful force with no obvious help from the Powers that
Be or any other Warrior for light."
Do we know this for sure? In Wednesday night's chat, there was
a lot of speculation that a force of Slayers or some other version
of the cavalry might still show up at the showdown. And 1 aspect
of "The Girl in Question" I didn't see discussed (OK,
I could have missed it) was that "We don't trust you"
didn't seem to be in effect. Andrew, the very person we heard
it from in Damage, now invites the 2 vamp champs into Buffy & Dawn's
place, makes no mention of distrust, & bestows his "move
on" wisdom on them. The outcome of the final/e battle isn't
the only thing that's left unanswered.
"This is no chick fight, it's a testosterone filled gun/sword/fist
fight."
Heeeee. So Slayers vs. übervamps in that other finale was
a chick fight? Wonder what kind of hormones the ubies had? @>)
"The Stoics, for example, imagined the universe to be an
infinite series of cyclical cosmic periods in which the apocatastasis
was the final stage of an old period and the beginning of a new
one."
Apoca-what? I had to look that one up. This is already long enough,
so I'll just supply a link.
Bonus: there's a quote from Neil Gaiman!
"Sebassis: ...Regretably, there is something stronger than
loyalty....hope."
Sound familiar? Like Angel on conviction & mercy at the other
end of this season? Does Angel sign to undo the shanshu portion
of the prophecy because he's seen the last of hope, as we saw
the last of mercy in Conviction? What this reflection (thanks,
Shadowkat!) of the earlier line actually means, I don't know.
"Angel: Maybe, but I keep thinking...that once this world
was theirs and now it's not."
How much do we really know about how humans came to dominate in
this world & demons were banished, reduced to attempts to reconquer
it by pulling strings from behind the scenes? Giles' original
description doesn't really say: "...in time they lost their
purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals,
for, for man." Did humans win out by physically/magically
fighting the demons? Or by working to help each other, like Anne
& her staff? Or both? (I vote both!)
I recently (all too recently) edited an SAT test preparation book.
One of the reading samples proposed that Homo sapiens'
survival advantage over the Neanderthals may have been the very
fact of their relative physical weakness--that it may have forced
them to develop better ways to communicate, cooperate, & develop
tools to compensate for their lack of physical strength (evolving
away from cavemen & toward astronauts?). Angel said in Power Play
that humans are weak. Now he says, "Maybe fighting them is
what makes human beings so remarkably strong." There's more
than 1 kind of fighting.
"The next scenes show just how far the characters have come
through the journey through the Belly of the Beast. Each person/demon
reveals who they are by what they decide to do with the time Angel
gave them before the showdown."
Yup...& I really liked these scenes.
"Lorne: If I ruled the world..."
....it would be a better place, not to mention a more musical
one. But he doesn't, & it's not. If Lorne ruled the world, he'd
never have to do what he does later in this episode. Afterwards,
I'm not sure he's any more comfortable here than he was in Pylea.
"Gunn: What if I told you, it doesn't help. What would you
do if you found out none of it matters. That it's all controlled
by forces more powerful and uncaring than we can conceive. And
that they will never let it get better down here, what would you
do.
Anne: I'd get the truck packed before the new stuff gets here.
Want to give me a hand?
Gunn: I do."
In the real world, the forces controlling things mostly aren't
motivated by keeping it from getting better "down here."
They're motivated by what they think will profit them, will increase
their power. It's more that they don't care about the consequences
to the less powerful than that they want to make things worse
for them per se.
But that doesn't mean things can't get better. They have. Anne's
organization has grown to the point where they've opened a 2nd
shelter & added part-time psychiatric staff. This is real progress,
& I think it's important that not only are they providing shelter
for more people who need it but they're also providing services
to help prevent the need. Ask the people there if it doesn't help.
"Illyria: I will fight, I've been broken and humiliated.
I will return in kind every blow, every sting. I will shred my
adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towords
their mewling, mutilatedfaces."
Take note, those of you assessing the odds. I have a feeling Illyria
can still shred a lot of adversaries. (& BTW, I didn't see any
evidence that the dragon we saw can breathe fire. Jossverse dragons
might not conform to real-world Western mythology.)
"The truth is that Fred is gone. To pretend anything else
would be a lie. And since I don't actually intend to die tonight,
I won't accept a lie."
I'm not sure I believe Wesley when he says this. (I won't accept
his lie?) The smile on his face when he raised his hand at the
end of Power Play looked like "Yes. Of course. This is the
way it should be, what I want"--including, maybe especially,
the idea that he wouldn't survive. There was some of the same...satisfaction
in his expression as he was dying.
"To allow herself to be humiliated by assuming the shape
of Fred, I feel she showed just how infected with humanity she
could be becoming."
I'm not sure she takes it as humiliating. (Getting beat up, that's
humiliating.) In TGiQ & early in Power Play, she didn't seem to
understand Wes' reaction to her appearance as Fred. I wonder if
she had any concept of what it meant when "Fred" told
Wesley, "I love you, you love me." Or at least, until
she said it. It's occurred to me that Illyria may not get clued
in to the meaning of Fred's memories or elements of her personality
until she accesses each specific one.
"Man in Crowd: Yeah! That was great man.
Spike: Thank you. That was for Cecily. All right the next one's
called "The Wanton Folley of me mum."
Heehee. It's taken Spike a century & a quarter to finally find
his audience. Maybe, in a perverted kind of karma, this is really
why he was vamped in the 1st place. Maybe, even, this is the greatness--in
head & heart--that Drusilla saw in him that led her to turn him.
OK, digression time. Maybe 15 years ago, an episode of Murder,
She Wrote had Angela Lansbury in a double role, playing Jessica
Fletcher & her cousin Emma in England, an aging actress
& singer whose life (of course) is in danger. We see her in a
club, singing, of all things, "Little Yellow Bird" to
a crowd of punked-out British youth. I don't know if this counts
as metanarration or what, but Lansbury sang this song decades
before in the movie version of The Picture of Dorian Gray!
Not only that, the movie was shown on TV (but on a diff't. station,
I think) the same week as the episode aired. So within a week,
you could see Angela Lansbury as a near-innocent young, slim,
blonde dance hall performer singing to an Oscar Wilde-era audience
(contemporary w/the yet-to-be-turned William!) & as a somewhat
jaded middle-aged, plump, dyed redhead singing the same song to
a British punk crowd looking every bit as rough as Spike's poetry
bar audience, both crowds swaying to her dulcet (or not-so-) tones.
Just couldn't let that go by without comment. End digression.
"Connor: No, I don't want to make a thing. I get what you
did - you know. And I'm grateful."
I gotta wonder, will Connor find out what's happened to Angel?
How will he feel about that? Maybe that was gonna be dealt with
in Season 6 (take note, ATPo Season 6 writers! gee, sounds to
me like the kinda thing that could precipitate a personality crisis).
In Origin, Connor said his parents would feel better knowing Angel
was looking out for him. Angel's deliberately getting into a situation
almost certain to get him killed could be seen as abandoning his
son...again.
In my reactive way, I'll pick up w/Rufus' part 2. But not tonight.
[> [> Re: Showdown at the Hyperion... part one....spoilers
for Angel series finale. -- Rufus, 03:50:49 05/25/04 Tue
Do we know this for sure? In Wednesday night's chat, there
was a lot of speculation that a force of Slayers or some other
version of the cavalry might still show up at the showdown. And
1 aspect of "The Girl in Question" I didn't see discussed
(OK, I could have missed it) was that "We don't trust you"
didn't seem to be in effect. Andrew, the very person we heard
it from in Damage, now invites the 2 vamp champs into Buffy & Dawn's
place, makes no mention of distrust, & bestows his "move
on" wisdom on them. The outcome of the final/e battle isn't
the only thing that's left unanswered.
Note I said no obvious...;)
Heeeee. So Slayers vs. übervamps in that other finale
was a chick fight? Wonder what kind of hormones the ubies had?
@>)
I was talking about the one side of the fight...no real female
(Illyria only recently female) presence on the good side.
How much do we really know about how humans came to dominate
in this world & demons were banished, reduced to attempts to reconquer
it by pulling strings from behind the scenes? Giles' original
description doesn't really say: "...in time they lost their
purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals,
for, for man." Did humans win out by physically/magically
fighting the demons? Or by working to help each other, like Anne
& her staff? Or both? (I vote both!)
I think this is where the PTB's come in. I figure in a world where
there are gods that are good or evil or an interesting combination
of both that somehow something stronger did make way for man to
flourish. And then compare humanity to ants. Ants keep on building,
keep going...a trait that humanity seems to share. There are people
who fight the apocalypse or other battles and people like Anne
that make sure the world is a place worth living in. Each one
contributes to the world as it is...and come to think of is, plenty
of the demons seem to have gotten quite comfy in the world built
by humans.
I'm not sure she takes it as humiliating. (Getting beat up,
that's humiliating.) In TGiQ & early in Power Play, she didn't
seem to understand Wes' reaction to her appearance as Fred. I
wonder if she had any concept of what it meant when "Fred"
told Wesley, "I love you, you love me." Or at least,
until she said it. It's occurred to me that Illyria may not get
clued in to the meaning of Fred's memories or elements of her
personality until she accesses each specific one.
I'm thinking of the similarity of the illusion that Illyria can
so completely offer and the one Lilah made a stab at. Both are
still illusions, only one of them understood it as such. I think
Illyria actually does love Wes and has been trying to find some
way to connect, even if not real.
I gotta wonder, will Connor find out what's happened to Angel?
How will he feel about that?
Remember Angel's speech to Connor about the world in Deep Down?
Angel: "What you did to me - was unbelievable, Connor.
- But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one
time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually
gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I
did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in
the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel.
- But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where
we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make
a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be,
to show it what it can be. - You're not a part of that yet. -
I hope you will be.
The Connor in season four was so resentful then so manipulated
that he couldn't, wouldn't, and feared the truth of what Angel
said. Look at his face though, and you see part of him wanted
to believe. Now that Connor has lived 2 lives, he can understand
what Angel meant. The fact he showed up to help his father tells
me that his experience of a family and Angel's role in getting
him that will help him be the type of person his life before with
Holtz couldn't let him be. Holtz was out for vengeance, was a
shitty father figure because to the end he used Connor in a way
a good father would not. I think Connor has it in him to be every
bit the Champion his dad has grown to be.
Format of S5 -- ghady,
03:52:12 05/22/04 Sat
I've only seen AS1,2,3, and the first three episodes of S4, which
seems like it's gonna be heavy on the big arcs and not so heavy
on the stand alone eps. So here's question: does S5 follow that
format, or does it have a lot of filler eps w/ a good season arc,
kinda like S2 of Buffy?
Replies:
[> Re: Format of S5 -- Evan, 08:26:53 05/22/04 Sat
It's almost entirely standalones for most of the season. The only
arcs to speak of are thematic, and character relations. The last
8 episodes or so are a little more story arcish, but still not
really.
[> [> Re: Format of S5 -- ghady, 08:45:53 05/22/04
Sat
Dammit.. i was really looking forward to it.. too bad it's so
standaloneish..
[> [> [> What's wrong with standaloneish? -- Finn
Mac Cool, 08:49:54 05/22/04 Sat
[> [> [> [> You live as you dream alone --
Ann, 08:58:23 05/22/04 Sat
Perhaps the stand-alone-ishness of this season (and I am not convinced
it is that) is a metaphor for what happens in the character's
hearts. In the final fight, you are alone with your decisions
and your conconscience. In the end you have to make these decisions
alone. And ultimately you die alone. This is reflected in the
format of the episodes.
[> [> [> It may have been standaloneish... --
Rob, 09:13:19 05/22/04 Sat
....but it was also, IMO, the finest season Angel ever
had. And the character arcs are very strong. As with any Whedon
season, the episodes, for example, cannot be aired out of order,
and the character development and themes, as usual, build throughout
the episodes. And while there are standalones, it grows much more
arc-driven as the season progresses, much more so than S1. I would
actually probably most compare it to Buffy S2, except none
of the weaker episodes were as weak as some of the poorer of the
BtVS S2 standalones (i.e. Some Assembly Required, Go
Fish).
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: It may have been standaloneish...
-- LittleBit, 10:08:49 05/22/04 Sat
Personally, I think Joss is incapable of actually producing a
stand-alone season.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: It may have been standaloneish...
-- ghady, 10:45:01 05/22/04 Sat
The thing is, when i hear the world standalone, Charmed comes
to mind--yes, there is character development, but the episodes
are forgotten.. there is no climax at the end.. even the season
finale is usually just a filler episode.. i like the big long
arcs, like S6 of Buffy.. i don't like each episode to exist on
its on.. and i ESPECIALLY loathe the "demon of the week"
format.. if that's what AS5 is about, then UGHHH!!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It may have been standaloneish...
-- LittleBit, 12:51:00 05/22/04 Sat
I'd have to say you don't really need to fear that. As always
with Joss the episodes are never completely stand-alone. They
have to be seen in order for the character development and story
to flow correctly. There are maybe a couple that could be pulled
out and truly stand alone, but in general there's still an arc.
I reallt did mean it when I said Joss isn't capable of writing
true stand-alone episodes. And the last third of the season is
absolutely not stand-alone. This is serial television, not episodic,
even though at the beginning things went slowly to bring new viewers
in, there was still reference to the past and hints for the future.
And once it got going, wowzers.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What about....
-- ghady, 07:44:21 05/23/04 Sun
1) the apocalypse everyone has been talking abt since S1? is it
dealt w/ in S4 and the beast or in S5?
2) the series finale.. is it just another episode like "To
Shanshu in LA", or is it a grand conclusion?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The answers
to your questions... -- Rob, 09:20:47 05/23/04 Sun
1) It is dealt with in S5.
2) Very hard question to answer unambiguously. It is a grand conclusion
and not a conclusion at all, both at the same time. Similar in
many respects to Chosen--which satisfyingly brought the
mythology to a new level but left things open for continuation--but
I actually liked it a little more.
Rob
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