May 2004 posts
Terrible (Spoilers for
Angel finally) -- black-eyed veigny, 18:15:24 05/19/04
Wed
How dare Joss turn Lorne into a trench-coated, murderous, thug.
And while I'm at it, what gives with killing of Wesley in such
an ignominious and ultimately meaningless manner? Seemed to me
like Joss trying to tie up all the ends, WRH crippled, Wesley
dead, Gunn dead, Fred dead, Lorne gone, Conner and Angel together
at last, Spike hanging tuff.
When you think about, almost everyone Angel ever cared about wound
up in the grave: Buffy, Cordy, Doyle, Fred, Wes, and Gunn.
And the ones who live are the morally ambigous, but sexy and superheroic
ones. I am shocked Joss couldn't wrangle that sweet slice o' catbuglar,
electroshock, tramp from last season.
To me, this was just a build up to a move or mini in the not to
distant future. That's what I think.
Replies:
[> umm (spoilers/corrections) -- Nino, 18:45:11 05/19/04
Wed
Gunn didn't die.
[> agree about... -- Rochefort, 19:07:22 05/19/04
Wed
Lorne. Poor Lorne. And I do NOT get what gives about Lyndsey.
I mean that was a terrible death. And it seemed pointless to me,
too. I hated that. If I were Lorne, I'd leave, too. The poor guy
has never gotten any respect anyway.
Rochefort
[> [> Lorne was the only one left..... -- meritaten,
00:04:50 05/20/04 Thu
who had never visited his dark side. Angel had obviously killed
many times. Wes and Gunn had both lost their conscience at various
times and done things that would once have horrified them. I think
there was a reason that Lorne had to kill someone. I really haven't
worked this thought out yet, ... but it strikes me that everyone
else had lost their moral compass somewhere along the way. The
fight for good had killed something inside of them .... or maybe
it was the horrors that they had seen. I'm not sure, but I think
this has something to do with Lorne killing Lindsey. Lorne looked
so defeated at the end. Just as Wes had back after he had betrayed
Angel, and again after Fred died.
....and I think also that Angel was right. Lindsey was not part
of the solution. He would have turned around and attack them the
next day. He has shown that before. His conscience has emerged
at times, but he always returns to evil.
I was also troubled by the fact that Lindsey was betrayed by our
heros, but I think there was a point to that. I'm not sure that
I got the point, but I think there was a point.
[> [> [> Sorry if subject line itself looks like a
spoiler - nothing to do with who survives -- meritaten, 01:11:09
05/20/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> but there *are* spoilers for the finale
inside! beware! -- anom, 12:18:48 05/20/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> I always assume that replies
to spoilers contain spoilers. Sorry if I caused anyone to be spoiled
-- meritaten, 13:44:14 05/20/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> but you can't assume other
people make the same assumption -- anom, 21:53:20 05/20/04
Thu
First off, don't worry that you spoiled me--I'd already seen the
episode. I just wanted to make sure nobody who hadn't would get
spoiled if they didn't want to be.
In fact, I generally assume the same thing, but it's not always
the case. Subthreads can wander off & not address the spoilery
issues in the original post, & it seemed to me that some people
might assume that your assurance that the subject line is spoiler-free
applied to the post too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You are right. Sorry
again. -- meritaten, 21:03:20 05/21/04 Fri
I try to stay spoiler-free and don't like it when I get spoiled
myself. I do try not to do this to others. After my first post,
I saw my subject line on the main page, and realized that it looked
like a spoiler itself. Unfortunately, in trying to correct this,
I only made it worse. Maybe the lesson here is that I shouldn't
type when I'm tired?
Anyways, I'm glad I didn't spoil you. I'm sorry for all the confusion,
and I hope no one else was spoiled. My sincere apologizes to anyone
who was. I'll be more careful in the future.
[> Re: Terrible (Spoilers for Angel finale) -- skeeve,
08:38:44 05/24/04 Mon
It reminded me of the last words in the Farscape finale:
"To be continued."
It seems to me that Angel is the
only likely post-series survivor.
Not only is there the sanshu prophecy,
he still has Hamilton's blood.
I don't see how he could keep the horde
from killing the rest of the crew.
If Illyria somehow got her powers back,
she might have been able to reduce our
heros' body count.
[> [> Not necessarily true.... (Series Finale Spoilers)
-- Briar Rose, 16:56:48 05/25/04 Tue
There could be many options besides any one of the Standing Four's
deaths in Whedon-verse.
One is that TPTB would do a reverse Buffy's Swan Dive and suck
the mutant hordes that are coming after the Fang Gang into another
dimension, literally stopping the latest apocalypse and saving
all the Champions that in the end stood on the side of Light.
Possibly proving the Shanshu Prophecy is still in effect as well....
Even if a major Universal rewind button isn't pushed.... Only
the dragon was actually shown as being a being that would be hard
to kill. The rest of that horde could be vampires and other demons/deamons
that are not especially skilled in battle. It's possible that
the majority were like the demon that Gunn and Lindsey encountered
in W,R&H's Bizarro World. Blood thirsty, but not very bright.
If the majority are vamps then Spike and Angel would both be hard
to kill because there can't be many others with their age and
stamina, as we've already seen. Illyria may not be as hard to
kill as Angel and Spike, but she still has a lot of strength.
Gunn is good with vamps - even wounded. However Gunn could very
well be killed, or Illyria and the rest might find a way to protect
him behind their own battle lines.
[> [> [> Re: Not necessarily false.... (Series Finale
Spoilers) -- skeeve, 07:14:17 05/27/04 Thu
Being attacked by multiple stupid things that are stronger
and sturdier than one is not good for one's survival.
Making most of the stupid things vampires
wouldn't necessarily help all that much.
The second best case scenario would seem to be that
Illyria can somehow shrapnelize pieces of the
hotel and take out lots of vampires at a time.
The best case scenario is that
a horde of Slayers show up.
The third best case scenario is that Lorne
has bought another protection spell,
one that includes the immediate vicinity of the hotel,
and it works.
None of these seem terribly likely.
Clearly Spike.... -- Rochefort,
21:51:47 05/19/04 Wed
Lives. Because now that Angel has given up the Shanshu, Spike
is the Shanshu vampire. Wolfram and Hart will of course want to
protect the Shanshu vampire as they always have. So they will
off Angel, unfortunately. But the goblins must have explicit instructions
to be nicey nicey with Spikey. :)
Rochefort
p.s. Need I say this is great news for you Spike-shippers out
there?
p.s.s. Yeah I'm just causing trouble, I know.
Replies:
[> spoilers for finale above -- Rochefort, 21:54:16
05/19/04 Wed
[> Not necessarily Rochefort.... -- Briar Rose, 23:44:19
05/19/04 Wed
As we know from Joss-verse, Oracles are not always precise, nor
are prophecies able to be changed. It's the actual outcome of
them that sometimes appears to differ from the prophecy's intent,
even though the prophecy is indeed fulfilled.
The Father will kill the son was never shown to be correct in
that Angel physically killed Conner. Yet Angel did, indeed, "kill"
the memory of his son (and we now know that "memories are
who we are", in the Joss-verse) to allow him to be "reborn"
as into a different life. One that his father chose for him. When
he chose to kill the life Conner knew, and in the process killed
the Conner they all knew. All memory of him was "killed"
from everyone but Angel and Cordelia.
When you look closely at all of the prophecies on both shows -
not one has failed to be true. The outcome might have been a less
literal meaning than the words, or slightly less dramatic. But
they have all come to pass.
Remember that Buffy was told that she would die? She did. Twice.
(Well, I think more like four times, but that's a different topic
to discuss.*LOL) But she also came back. There is no way to say
the prophecy was untrue. And nothing could change it. It had to
come to pass, one way or the other. The same with the All Seeing
Eye to Anya and Giles: 'The Slayer has thrown the line off....'
YES! Buffy threw the line off when she decided to open the Slayer
power to all the potentials. That prophecy was not time dated.
It came to pass as all the others did.
And I believe that it's most probable that the Shanshu shall as
well, if the series is ever resurrected.
The Shanshu can not be "undone" by Angel signing his
name to a slip of paper. (Neither could Buffy "undo"
the prophecy that she would die by the Master's hands.... She
did. Xander brought her back. She couldn't have changed the prophecy,
just the outcome.) Prophecies are not contracts, they are tools
that anyone can use to try and make decisions about how they spend
their time before (and after) they come to pass.
Prophecy in Joss-verse is akin to Tarot in the real-verse. A tool
that gives you insight into a situation. You have to make decisions
about that for yourself. However, the cards do show you the outcome.
You only choose how badly or well it turns out in the final outcome,
by your own decision.
I also have to wonder if the signature would have any meaning
beyond making the Black Thorn feel more confident, even if it
was against all canon we've known thus far, and a prophecy could
be extinguished totally. What signature would a prophecy require
to invalidate it? Angel signed the paper as "Angel".
What if the signature of Angel doesn't matter, only Angelus or
Liam or whatever. For all intents and purposes, Angel is simply
the name that Liam gave to his soul after it was restored to him.
Angelus was simply a name that Liam assumed (with help) to remake
Liam into an alter-ego.
Of course, this hypothesis may be used with Spike as the "Vampire
with a Soul" in question as well.... The prophecy is unclear
as to which Vampire it was speaking of. Since we now have two,
it's just as possible that Angel and Spike will still be wondering
which to be capable of Shanshuing when the world breaths it's
last in the final Apocalypse.
I would think that there is just as much chance of Angel (or Spike)
Shanshuing now as there ever was.
[> [> Re: Not necessarily Rochefort.... -- LeeAnn,
02:34:09 05/20/04 Thu
Besides, Angel signed that paper "Unyer" not Angel.
[> [> The going theory in chat -- mrsubjunctive,
08:32:15 05/20/04 Thu
last night was that Angel shanshued via Connor, that he in some
sense is living as a human through his son living as human. This
doesn't entirely satisfy me, but we've been asked to buy similar
things before, so it may well have to.
[> [> [> I can also see that (spoiler for Ats Final)
and THANK YOU Lunasea! -- Briar Rose, 14:49:33 05/20/04
Thu
Connor is Angel's son and he is "a real boy" even though
Angel isn't and his Mother wasn't either. . . . As I said above,
all the prophecies are "true", yet they don't always
follow to the letter what is read or stated. Neither do they have
a time limit.
It is highly possible that the Shanshu has already come to pass:
Angel fathered a real boy. Super powered, yes. But a real boy
all the same. A Champion played a part in the Apocalypse by fathering
a human child from his deamon essence. Thus the child becomes
the real apocalypse. No one ever said that the apocalypse was
of the end of good. I don't remember that being defined at all.:)
But I also have to thank Lunasea for another aspect of the argument
that I presented and LeeAnn commented on as well: Is it really
"Angel" signing the contract to dissolve the prophesy,
even if it's possible to dissolve the Shanshu prophecy?
Lunasea hit on a very reasonable argument: It's not really Angel's
blood. No vampire has his "own" blood. He simply works
on borrowed/stolen blood.
I know the argument that possession is 9/10ths of the Law. But
it would seem to be stretching it to say that Angel's blood is
his own.
And as LeeAnn mentioned, it might be that Angel did not actually
sign his own name. I do believe that he didn't, even if not for
the reason that LeeAnn does....
I believe that Angel knew that Angel is not the name he needed
to sign. As I said, Liam is Angel/Angelus' REAL name, no matter
what the man chooses to go by in his waking world.
Names are power. All people have names of some type. And the given
name is the one with the power. Not a name that you choose for
yourself. Also not necessarily a name that you are called before
it's "official." Some societies are accustomed to never
giving their "official" name to anyone outside their
family. In some cases, it isn't even known to more than one other
person - the one who gives them the name.
I definitely do see all of these seperate arguments as pointing
to the logical assumption that the Shanshu Prophecy is still in
effect, or has already been fulfilled, and it's still as vague
on which Vampire with a soul it actually relates to.
Unless Joss wants to state otherwise, I think it's left as it
should be at this point: Vague and hopeful that someone is finally
responsible for being a Champion and creating from himself "a
real boy."
[> [> [> [> Re: a few questions: Finale Spoilers
-- Harry F., 03:22:23 05/21/04 Fri
Have a few questions. Maybe someone can clear things up for me:
Doesnt the Shanshu mention that the vampire with the soul will
battle many apocalypes and overcome the sun being blackened or
something like that? Angel has and was responsible for bringing
back the sun. And if the prophecy is meant for Angel, it can't
shift if Angel signed off on it. It doesnt jump to the next vampire
with a soul. Instead, it goes to no one.
I dont buy the whole "technicality" aspect some of you
are presenting - like Angel signing the wrong name or Angel's
blood is not his own. It seems unreasonable that a posse as powerful
as the black thorn wouldnt be able to catch this technicality.
Can you sign off on a prophecy? Doesnt seem likely, but why would
the black thorn raise this issue if it wasnt possible? They are
powerful beings, together more powerful than anything every presented
in Joss's 'verse, so why couldnt they make it happen, someone
alter destiny? It's clear Angel believes he signed off on his
chance to live. What bothers me is what exactly was he signing
off on? His chance to be human? Or, the prophecy? If he signed
off on the prophecy, doesnt everything become void, not only his
chance to be a real boy but his role in the coming apocalypses?
How does this issue work?
Also, a question about Lorne. How can he just walk away like that?
Wouldnt the wolf, ram, and hart hunt his demon *ss down and kill
him? Can anyone outrun them and just disappear? Is it that easy?
[> [> [> [> [> All that the prophecy said was:
-- Finn Mac Cool, 18:31:48 05/21/04 Fri
A vampire with a soul will battle some fiends and plagues as well
as playing a pivotal role in the apocalypse (no one is sure on
which side), after which he will "shanshu"/become human.
There are no specific threats mentioned, and there can be multiple
apcoalypses, many of which both Angel and Spike have played important
roles in, so there's nothing to invalidate Spike as a candidate,
while there is something to invalidate Angel. Signing off on a
prophecy does seem odd, but, if anyone has the resources to do
it, it's the Black Thorn.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: All that the prophecy
said was: -- Harry F., 08:11:14 05/24/04 Mon
Shanshu prophecy: I remember there was mention of darkness or
sun blotched so I looked it up in the episode index and found
this description:
"He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles,
a few plagues, and several ...fiends that will be unleashed."
Darkness: Angel
Apocalyptic Battles: Angel
Plagues: Angel
Fiends Unleashed: Both
Its not exactly clear, but when are prophecies ever spelled out
for you. I gave Angel "checks" in all the categories
because he did survive the darkness and plagues (all against the
beast), and he did play a pivotal role in the apocalypse. In every
apocalypse, Angel has played a main role; Spike hasnt. The only
apocalypse Spike took center stage was the one in the Hellmouth
with the ubervamps (and that was only because Angel gave him a
medallion). Spike did fight fiends too so they are both marked,
but his role was just as important as Wes, Gunn, Lidnsey, and
Illyria. I guess its up for you to decide, but I believe the prophecy
is Angel's (if he didnt sign it away).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not every apocalypse
-- Finn Mac Cool, 08:24:24 05/24/04 Mon
He wasn't involved in the Hellmouth opening in "Doomed",
or Glory's portal in "The Gift", or Willow's fricase
plans in "Grave". What's more, I wouldn't say he played
a main role in all of the others (he was pretty marginal in "The
Harvest"). Spike also has been involved in several apocalypses
(he assembled the Judge in "Surprise" (remember, the
souled vampire can either aid or stop the apocalypse), helped
out a lot against Angelus and Acathla, played a marginal role
in the "Doomed" apocalypse, helped to both aid and stop
Adam's plans, helped in "The Gift", and was a key figure
in "Chosen". Plus, he and Angel worked to fight W&H's
apocalypse together, so they both get credit there.
Also, keep in mind, coming darkness can be literal (the sun blotting),
or a symbol (the rise of apocalyptic activity), so Angel being
involved in the literal darkness doesn't necessarily qualify him
over Spike.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not every
apocalypse -- Harry F, 09:43:37 05/24/04 Mon
You're right. Maybe I shortchanged Spike, but his roles were still
minimal. All of Spike's roles were secondary or below. But I guess
all the shanshu states (as we know it) that the vamp must survive
apacalyptic battles. Doesnt necessarily say what role he played.
If my understanding is correct, its the final battle that makes
a difference. I thought the whole point of shanshu was 1) Major
role in apocalypse, then 2) shanshu. If the final apocalyspe was
the final battle between W&H, Spike didnt do anything. His
role was again minimal. Angel orchestrated the whole plan.
Also with mentioning is the prophecy states vamp "with soul."
Those apocalypses, I dont know if it means anyhting, but spike
didnt have a soul then.
What about plagues? No plagues with Spike.
Lastly, if you want to talk interpretation and "darkness"
then the whole prophecy could just as well be interpretation.
Wes couldve been wrong when he says "live and then die."
Angel had a son and that couldve been the fulfillment of the prophecy.
There are many ways you can spin it. But the darkness, as illustrated
in a literal and metaphorical sense, both happened with the beast,
which Angel defeated.
Anything is possible in Joss-verse. If the show comes back, there
are many ways he can spin it for the story to continue. Consistency
was never important though. Can you make an argument that Spike
is the shanshu prophecy? Yes, being a vampire with the soul certainly
qualifies him. But, as of now, assuming the show doesnt come back,
you can make a stronger case for shanshu being about Angel.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There
is more to Shanshu than the words -- lunasea, 12:10:47
05/24/04 Mon
1. There are those blind seer kids whose power increases as they
mature and can see into the heart of things. The scroll is how
Wolfram and Hart know about them.
2. Angel is attracted to the scroll. He has a connection with
it. It first appears in "Blind Date," not "To Shanshu
in LA." Without knowing what it is, he knows it is about
him. That is why he brings it to Wesley to translate. He goes
to Wolfram and Hart to get data tapes.
3. Angel is the one connected to the PTBs and his connections
are what are tampered with in "To Shanshu in LA." The
Scroll was used to heal Cordy, ANGEL' s, not Spike's connection.
Until I see the PTBs start to take an interest in Spike, he really
isn't a candidate. Angel has seen at least 2 Slayers called. He
has had 3 messengers assigned to him by the PTBs. He is being
specifically molded by the PTBs for something. Call him a pawn.
I think it is more like training.
4. Angel is THE vampire with a soul, just like Buffy is THE slayer.
There are other prophecies with refer to THE vampire with a soul,
such as the one about Sahjan. Haven't seen Spike mentioned. The
one sired by THE vampire with a soul did kill Sahjan after he
grew to manhood.
I'm really tired of people trying to wank Shanshu to Spike. Could
Joss do that? Sure. Joss can do anything. He can pull a dragon
out of a magician's hat. Based on the show, that Scroll of Aberjian
is about ANGEL. This is just like Buffy. It isn't about thematic
resonance. Shanshu fits Angel's issues symbolically. Instead Shanshu
is seen as a trophy to determine which vampire with a soul is
better.
If Angel and Spike can move beyond that, why can't the audience?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Of
course, Angel's connections to higher plans all became suspect
in Season 4 -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:26:21 05/24/04 Mon
We have no way of knowing how much was Jasmine and how much wasn't.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Angel's connections to higher plans all became suspect
in S4 (spoilers) -- lunasea, 16:25:42 05/24/04 Mon
1. Oracles
"The Powers-That-Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?"
(IWRY)
Plural. Powers. Jasmine's plans neither involved Angel saving
humanity (she wanted to do that herself) or averting the Apocalypse
(In retrospect, things like the Oracles tend to refer to THE Apocalypse,
rather than an.)
Doyle may not know who he is working for, but the Oracles are
in the know.
The Oracles do not fit into Jasmine's plan. They released Angel
from his fealty.
2. The Oracles refer to why Cordy inherited the visions in "Parting
Gifts."
3. From "Birthday" the Conduit is contradicting what
Skip is trying to do.
"It is come. The champion is come. (Angel picks himself up
and looks around) Come for what? Answers not to be had. Death
is certain. Death awaits." (Cordy doesn't see this part).
"Its pleas are pointless. Her path is chosen. We will not
interfere." (nor does Cordy see that)
They also speak of Powers, plural.
4. S5, the PTBs give Cordy visions and she passes them temporarily
to Angel. Jasmine is dead, so something/one else is doing this.
5. Jasmine refers to the other powers as "Those of us who
had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful."
(Shiny Happy People) She admits they do watch. "We became
little more than observers." Little more. They could send
the visions, just not act themselves.
6. Jasmine says where her plan began "The day Lorne sent
Angel and human Darla into the trials to earn a new chance at
life."
Skip is just trying to get under the gang's skin when he goes
off in "Inside Out." He is not a reliable narrator.
Jasmine does not take credit for Angel being resouled. She refers
to that as "a miracle already." Her plan was put into
effect "Through Lorne."
7. If Shanshu is still a possibility S5 and the Circle seems to
think it is, and Jasmine has been destroyed, that prophecy has
to come from something else, namely the other Powers.
I don't think it is that difficult to separate truth from illusion
when it comes to Jasmine and the other Powers. Jasmine says when
her plan began. I see no reason to doubt that. "I had to
find a way back. But, first I needed a miracle. And so I arranged
one." The only thing she needs to do that is send the reading
to Lorne. Everything else Skip mentions is not necessary. It is
to make the gang feel like pawns.
The interesting part to all this is that it takes Angel being
despondent because of what Holland says to get him to sleep with
Darla. Are the Senior Partners part of Jasmine's plan? If so,
why does she destroy Wolfram and Hart in "Habeas Corpses"?
Jasmine was part opportunity and part scheming. She doesn't turn
Cordy into part demon until AFTER Connor has been conceived and
born. She doesn't have Skip bring her to the Higher Realms until
Connor is back in this dimension after he has grown to manhood.
The speed he does that is because of Holtz taking him to Quor-toth.
Waaaay to many things that she didn't have control of there. Skip
just lists each person's hot button, not what Jasmine actually
did.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Never denied there were other powers -- Finn Mac
Cool, 18:27:27 05/24/04 Mon
However, we can't be sure how deep Jasmine's machinations go.
Her plans went into full force during "The Trial", but
how much did she manipulate events to have Angel go to them and
earn a life for her to use? Also, did the Oracles release Angel
from fealty because that was the real intent, or was it because
either they or Jasmine knew enough of Angel's psychology to know
he'd eventually come to them for a time reversal. And, just because
some of the visions were from other Powers That Be doesn't mean
Jasmine didn't get a few of her own in as well. You see the problem,
don't you? Since we know so little of the PTB, we can't tell how
far in advance they can predict the consequences of their actions.
Even something that on the face goes against Jasmine's plans could
potentially be set up by her. After all, we know the PTB can predict
events before they happen (the visions), and so Jasmine could
know that, for example, telling Angel he needs to save the world
would indirectly lead to him knocking up Darla and allowing her
plans to continue. I'm not necessarily saying everything was set
up by Jasmine, but every event attributed to a higher power before
her death is suspect.
You refer to Skip as an unreliable narrator, but so is Jasmine,
so her comments about Angel's soul being "a miracle already"
and Lorne setting events in motion could very easily have been
sweat talk to more easily subdue them.
Now, I'm not denying the shanshu prophecy is authentic (I think
the Senior Partners would know if it was and would probably tell
the Black Thorn). However, everything linking Angel to the prophecy
came before Jasmine's death. The only things in Season 5 that
seem like clear messages from the PTB are Cordelia's return and
Angel's vision (and even then, the possibility of the Senior Partners
doing it remains, while remote). These lead Angel to wanting to
take down the Black Thorn, but nothing shanshu specific is involved.
As such, while we know some higher power up there other than Jasmine,
and probably other than the Senior Partners, has an interest in
Angel, we don't know what if any actions they took before Season
5, and we don't know if they intended him to be the shanshu vamp
or not.
(One final point: the prophecy says the vampire with a soul will
become human; it never actually says it's caused by a higher power;
for all we know the apocalyptic battle could involve a Mora demon
that bleeds on said souled vamp.)
(OK, yet another final point: the prophecied souled vampire could
have been Angel or Spike (whether Angel is an option now is vague),
but there's nothing to say another souled vampire couldn't turn
up sometime down the line and fulfill the prophecy instead of
the two we already know.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Never denied there were other powers --
lunasea, 20:28:11 05/24/04 Mon
However, we can't be sure how deep Jasmine's machinations go.
Depends on how you look at the show. Any plot is possible. The
show doesn't run on plot. It runs on themes and emotional arcs.
Using those, we can see what the "genuine" PTBs are
doing. First you have to figure out what the PTBs are and then
you can see their motivation and what actions fit them.
how much did she manipulate events to have Angel go to them
and earn a life for her to use?
She said what she did. She planted the idea in someone that Lorne
read (I have an upcoming essay on the effect this has on Lorne).
the events that are necessary for this to happen beyond that are
1)Darla has to contract syphillis and die from it. 2) The Master
has to vamp her. 3) Angel has to dust her. 4) Wolfram and Hart
have to bring her back.
There are lots of little events in between, like Darla has to
vamp Liam and Angelus has to be cursed. Ockham must be screaming.
Jasmine just took advantage of opportunities. She doesn't care
if Angel is her grandfather. She probably unsouled him because
the prophecy makes him a danger. Without a soul, prophecy doesn't
apply.
When Angel needed a miracle to save Darla, Jasmine saw her opportunity.
She didn't make that opportunity. Doesn't need to. Evil forces
do most of the work, vampires, gypsies and Wolfram and Hart.
If the Oracles knew that Angel would want the Time Reversal, explain
the way the brother acted? The sister had to convince him that
they should do it. That wasn't for Angel's benefit. Angel didn't
need to be baited like Cordy in "Birthday." Angel didn't
ask for it to prove anything. He did it because he loved Buffy.
He already thinks of himself as a lower being.
If Jasmine got in visions, which ones fit with her plan to get
Angel to conceive a child and then for Cordy to ascend? She doesn't
do things for shits and grins. I really don't see a problem.
Why do you think Jasmine is an unreliable narrator? Once she appears
and has the gang under her thrall, why does she need to lie? She
doesn't need to talk sweet. She just exudes sweetness.
We have knowledge of Shanshu before the prophecy shows up, both
in the words of the Oracles and Doyle.
Doyle: "I don't know. I thought the only way for you to be
made mortal was if the Powers-That-Be stepped in."
Angel: "What, they could have done this? How come I keep
getting the feeling that you're not telling me everything."
Doyle: "Because I'm not. We're both on a need to know basis
here."
Doyle was sent a vision that said the PTBs were going to make
Angel mortal (not necessarily human). Doyle knows a lot more than
he lets on. He only lets Angel know what he needs to know. From
this, Shanshu is Angel's. Doyle is sent to help Angel. Doyle's
visions are about and for Angel. As SK says Angel and Spike don't
negate each other. HOWEVER when it comes to Shanshu, that is Angel's.
Seeing as Doyle was sent a vision that this will be done by the
PTBs, it isn't some Mohra Demon that will do it.
Doyle's vision shows that ANGEL is meant to be THE vampire with
a soul. Doyle is given ANGEL's history. Doyle is sent to ANGEL.
Doyle knows about Shanshu before the scroll is found. We also
know from that vision that it is done by a higher power.
There is a lot more to this than a few words on a scroll. To ignore
all those is to ignore the story.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Never denied there were other powers
-- Finn Mac Cool, 05:06:14 05/25/04 Tue
But Jasmine did lie, at least about the fact that she was using
a spell on all of them, or the fact that she ate people (at least
not right away). She didn't tell them the whole truth.
Also, exactly WHY couldn't Jasmine have set up Darla's turning,
her resurrection, and most of the Season 2 wackiness? Considering
how little we really know about the PTB, it is possible. She could
have just seized opportunities, as you say, she could have been
manipulating every single breath our heroes made, as Skip said,
or she did something in between, as I think is most likely. While
themes are important to the show as well, part of the theme of
Season 4 was mistrust for higher powers and their plans, so I
don't see how my theories don't fit thematically.
It's true the Oracles didn't need to lead Angel along to get him
to take the time reversal, but they might have needed to do so
to affect his view of the PTB. As I said before, even something
that on the face of it goes against Jasmine's plans could have
butterfly effects that only someone like Jasmine can see.
Likewise, we really can't tell if Doyle being sent to Angel was
done by Jasmine, the other Powers That Be, or a conglomeration
of the two. As such, while it doesn't debunk evidence towards
Angel's significance, it does throw it into question. Saying with
absolute surety that Jasmine had nothing to do with the PTB actions
in Season 1 seems to be based on little more than what you'd like
the show to say, not on the data provided.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Never denied there were other powers
-- lunasea, 07:27:25 05/25/04 Tue
Season 4 was mistrust for higher powers and their plans, so
I don't see how my theories don't fit thematically.
Season 4's theme, but not 1-3 and before.
Like I said, in the Buffyverse anything is possible. Joss has
proved that time and time again. However, it makes the story much
weaker if the PTB's involvement with Angel has been reduced to
Jasmine's machinations. How do Angel's views of the PTBs change
because of the Oracles? how does Jasmine need to influence how
Angel sees them in order to work her plan?
But Jasmine did lie, at least about the fact that she was using
a spell on all of them, or the fact that she ate people (at least
not right away). She didn't tell them the whole truth.
I don't remember her denying either of these things. They weren't
even in a position to doubt or ask her. She has them under thrall.
Why would she need to lie about her plan. The evil genius typicallly
likes to reveal her plans, and Jasmine isn't even quite evil.
Why would she need to hide anything? It just makes her look more
clever. Why not say that I sent Doyle to you? That would make
Angel even more loyal to her.
The story makes sense with what she said in "Shiny Happy
People." It matches with themes from other seasons and doesn't
retcon things too much. Her actions alone cast doubt on the PTBs.
Nothing more is required. Ockham doesn't need to be rolling that
much.
Also, exactly WHY couldn't Jasmine have set up Darla's turning,
her resurrection, and most of the Season 2 wackiness?
Because these are all done by forces of evil. You are saying that
Jasmine chose Darla for some reason, had influence over the Master,
who doesn't seem to listen to any other creature (he is HEAD of
his order), tricked Angel into dusting her, tricked Wolfram and
Hart into resurrecting her?
Waaaay too much out of her control, ESPECIALLY manipulating the
Wolf, the Ram and the Hart. That alone restricts her ability.
One thing to manipulate Angel based on his good intentions or
use Lorne's gift. Another to manipulate the Senior Partners.
I see no reason to doubt the veracity of Jasmine in "Shiny
Happy People." Unreliable narrators are unreliable for a
reason. She has no need to lie, so why would she? She is basically
a force of good, just unable to understand certain things about
humanity.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Possible reason: -- Finn
Mac Cool, 12:39:44 05/25/04 Tue
When Fred turned against Jasmine, she never mentioned the fact
that the spell wore off, only that Fred rejected her love. Take
a look at "Him", where Buffy, Dawn, Willow, and Anya
were under R.J.'s spell, but were able to somewhat resist it once
it was driven into their heads that a spell was affecting them.
Think about it: part of Jasmine's spell involved her followers
always trusting her and her words. As such, if she told them she
that they were all under her spell, the spell itself would force
them to accept its existence, and so might give them a marginal
ability to resist her influence.
Likewise, she may not have mentioned many of the details, knowing
that they might weaken her control over people, at least in the
early stages (the longer she was around/the more people she ate
the more Jasmine seemed able to manipulate people's minds). As
such, at least in the beginning, she might choose to whitewash
over some of the more sinister sounding details, such as lying
to them in the past or planning things like Darla's vamping. I
doubt they'd pose an actual threat of rebellion, but they could
make things harder.
Also, not everything Wolfram & Hart does is the direct word of
the Senior Partners. There are channels between their earthly
offices and whatever dimension they live in, and one of the higher
ups in those channels (probably higher than Holland Manners but
below the Senior Partners) could have hatched the Darla plan,
and these higher ups, if they can be controlled by the Senior
Partners, can probably control the Powers That Be. Also, we can't
even be sure how the Partners compare to the PTB. It's possible
that the Powers are even above the Partners in power. As such,
I see no reason why she couldn't have been behind the plan to
resurrect Darla, or many other things. It could have been as simple
as knowing that, if she pushes this pebble into the right spot
two thousand years ago, it will cause a chain reaction leading
to Darla being sired (I again cite the butterfly effect and the
fact that someone of PTB level could see much farther along it
then we can).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> If you keep that up, you'll
sprain your wrist ;-) -- Lunasea, 13:18:00 05/25/04 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not every
apocalypse -- Harry F., 09:55:39 05/24/04 Mon
Oops, wanted to add one other point. Prophecies are told of characters
of importance. A prophecy wouldnt be foretold of someone who was
insignificant or played an insignificant role.
Spike has always taken a backseat to Angel's character. He's not
the leader that Angel is nor is he the destoryer that Angelus
is. What are the chances the prophecy will be about a vampire
with a soul of lesser importance?
Also, those apocalypses that Spike was involved in, he played
on the wrong side. And then he was on the right side, chances
are he did it for love, not the greater good. He finally became
a true champion this year, playing for the greater good, only
to take a backseat to Angel's role and character. I know its not
specified which side this vamp will play on (good or evil), but
shanshu is a reward given by the PTB. I doubt they will reward
a vamp that played on the wrong side or for the wrong reasons.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: a few questions: Finale Spoilers
-- lunasea, 10:55:30 05/22/04 Sat
It seems unreasonable that a posse as powerful as the black
thorn wouldnt be able to catch this technicality.
The technicality doesn't matter. What matters is that Angel believes
it. From his reaction afterward, he does. It's like any document
really. It only has validity if the person signing it believes
it does. How can a signature make anyone do or refrain from anything?
All the Blackthorn wanted was reassurance that Angel wasn't using
them to get his reward. Angel's signature did this. Fits the theme
better if it doesn't work as they hope. It's a lie just like everything
else. You can no more sign away destiny than you can freedom or
choice.
The "reward" wasn't offered as a contract. It isn't
something the PTBs use to entice him. Hey Angel, we know you don't
want to help us, but if you do, here's a reward. It is cause and
effect. There is stuff in between missing in the prophecy. There
has to be something that ties Angel's role in the apocalypse to
Shanshu. Angel doesn't work for reward, so a carrot is pretty
pointless. They even showed him that in "Judgment."
It is assumed to be a reward. There is nothing in the prophecy
that actually says that. Major player in the apocalypse, does
what he is supposed to, shanshus. I would say that whatever he
is supposed to do causes shanshu, just like the Scythe Spell brings
about Buffy's freedom.
S6, I would address this idea, that signatures are only as binding
as we believe them to. I would have S6's theme be the power of
belief. It can be illustrated beautifully with Lilah. Eternal
Contracts can be broken.
There is a contract Angel to signing off on the Prophecy. By becoming
a member of the Circle, Angel has become a major player in the
apocalypse, thus fullfilling the prophecy. Once he does, to accept
or reject his "reward" is his choice. That only works
if the original contract is between the Senior Partners and Angel.
If the reward is to come from the PTBs (which is what Doyle thinks),
then he would have to sign away his reward with their agents,
not the Circle. I really don't think the Circle has any power
over what the PTB's do. Instead, they just need Angel to believe
that they have found a loophole. Thing about loopholes, there
are always others. Their loophole probably has a loophole.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: a few questions: Finale
Spoilers -- meritaten, 19:45:53 05/22/04 Sat
"It can be illustrated beautifully with Lilah. Eternal
Contracts can be broken."
How was it broken? What I remember is Wes trying to undo Lilah's
eternal contract by burning the paper it was written on, but the
contract (signed in blood) automatically reappears in Lilah's
file. Lilah said something about the point of an eternal contract
is that it is eternal - no getting out of it.
Also, blood signatures seem to be binding in the Buffyverse. Blood
has special significance. While I agree that the important point
(both for Angel and for the Circle) in Angel's signing away his
humanity was his willingness to do so, I tend to lean towards
it actually being binding, due to the blood signature.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: a few questions: Finale
Spoilers -- Harry F., 11:39:40 05/23/04 Sun
Angel believing he lost the shanshu is an important point. So,
it must be within the realm of possiblity that you can actually
sign away destiny. Otherwise, why would he believe it? He's been
in living in Joss'verse for over 200 some years, fighting evil,
avoiding acocaplypses, and dealing with prophecies. He must have
some idea who has the power and who doesnt.
Back to your point about changing fate. Is it possible? Joss does
seem to imply that whatever is prophesized is bound to come true
in one way or another. However, he also suggested once that fate
or destiny can be changed. After defeating the Mohra Demon, Angel
became human. The oracles let him know that its legit, no strings
attached and he was free. As you know, he went back and changed
his fate. Granted its the PTB that have all the power, but the
oracles turned the clock back without discussing it with the PTB
and allowed Angel to change his destiny. So, you dont believe
the black thorn has the power too?
Even though Joss implies prophecies are bound to come true, there
has to be an element of free will. Otherwise, Angel (or Spike)
is virtually invincible until Shanshu happens.
Also, back to my original question, how did he not sign off on
the entire prophecy, the whole "major role in the apocalypse"
line. It doesnt seem to be a "selective signing-off."
He signed on the original scrolls meaning everything, the reward,
the apocalypses, the major role aspect.
Shanshu doesnt really mean anything is Joss-verse. There are so
many other ways Joss can write in to get around it. Just find
another Mohra demon or go visit the demon the re-soulled Spike.
And I thought as well that Lilah's contract could not be broken.
[> [> [> [> Re: I can also see that (spoiler for
Ats Final) and THANK YOU Lunasea! -- LeeAnn, 03:53:57 05/25/04
Tue
And as LeeAnn mentioned, it might be that Angel did not actually
sign his own name. I do believe that he didn't, even if not for
the reason that LeeAnn does....
I don't recall giving a reason, just observed the signature looked
like "Unyer" to me, not Angel. The A was open making
it a U and the L wasn't even looped. I only noticed it because
it was so different from the neat, precise signature of Angel's
that we were shown previously.
[> Alternate meanings for Shanshu, plus speculation (5.22
spoilers) -- Doug, 14:58:12 05/25/04 Tue
Just some Evil thoughts percolating through my brain:
1) Shanshu means both life and death, and is interpreted as the
cycle of mortal life.
2) If the word for life is the same as for death; than what is
the word "reward" the same as? [Evil Grin]
My theory is that the vampire with a soul who is the prophecied
one (whoever it is) will die in the course of the apocalypse spoken
of in the scrolls, but will be returned to life (quite possibly
mortal life). But for some odd reason the PTB just keep reminding
me of the Messengers from Hunter: The Reckoning (I commented on
this during Season 4 of Angel) so I'm wondering if they're the
sorts to just do open favors without trying to help their cause
a little in the process. What I started to think last year was
that the prophecy could more literally be translated as:
"After the Vampire with a soul has died in the prophecied
apocalypse he will be dragged back to existence and made mortal
(whether this is a vanilla mortal or some form of supernatural
who just happens to have human form and lifespan is optional),
and then drefted for further missions on the behalf of whomever's
side he fought for in the Apocalypse (since both Spike and Angel
were fighting the Senior Partners it's safe to assume that the
powers would be the ones to drag either back). He will be granted
a little free time to enjoy human existence in between jobs."
In short, the worded "rewarded" may be the same as "drafted".
Just some evil thoughts.
On the subject of who shanshues; Boreanaz has expressed interest
in moving on to new roles; and there are some fairly credible
rumours circulating that a Spike movie is being considered, one
that would not be directly tied to BtVS or AtS but could include
characters from either.
So those are rhe real-world concerns.
Back in the Jossverse we have the issue of that contract the Black
Thorn made Angel sign. Now, if these guys are such bad-ass mystics,
and nearly unstoppable when they wield power together, one would
expect them to know what was possible with their power. So either:
1) They were just testing Angel, and the signature wasn't supposed
to do anything anyway.
2) That their power, combined with Angel giving will and consent
through signature in blood, would be enough to alter Angel's fate.
Angel can't will away his destiny, and big magic has a hard time
taking it from him, but will combined with big magic may be enough
to do it.
Just some more food for thought. In conclusion, I think Spike's
got a pretty good chance of getting a tan in the not so far off
future.
[> [> Why couldn't Spike tan now? -- skeeve, 08:12:21
05/27/04 Thu
Drugs work on vampires about the way they do on humans.
There is no reason to assume a sunlamp wouldn't also.
Before the shanshu, Spike or Angel becomes
something that is not a vampire with a soul.
Otherwise there will be no "*the* vampire
with a soul" to do the shanshuing.
The Oracles clearly believed that
prophecies do not necessarily come to pass.
One of the prophecies in
Prophecy Girl did not come to pass.
Well not unless it is given a trivial interpretation.
Joss's anti-feminist message
in Not Fade Away -- Ames, 12:58:16 05/20/04 Thu
It seems to me that Joss has inadvertently (?) delivered an anti-feminist
message in NFA:
Lindsey has swung back and forth between good and evil. So has
Harmony, and she has currently come down on the side of evil,
while Lindsey is currently on the side of good. Eve has been a
willing tool of the senior partners, not just a potential one,
and has never even tried to pretend to be good. But Lindsey is
a man, hence important and dangerous, and must be killed. Same
with Marcus Hamilton, currently filling Eve's former role. But
Eve and Harmony are just helpless women, naughty perhaps, but
ineffectual, and so can be allowed to live.
Replies:
[> Re: Joss's anti-feminist message in Not Fade Away
-- Finn Mac Cool, 13:34:02 05/20/04 Thu
Well, Harmony was originally crafted as just being a dumb, shallow
flunky for Cordelia, and the writers have kept that characterization.
The whole point of having Harmony around was that she never really
was anything more than an airhead (if she rose above it, she'd
just be imitating Buffy and Cordelia).
Also, I think you have to consider the fact that Lindsay has been
around since the first episode of "Angel". Killing him
was partly to make things come full circle. Also, "Angel"
has more experience with Lindsay; he knows him better and probably
feels in a better place to judge him. Eve, once cut off from the
Senior Partners, really didn't have any ambitions of regaining
lost power, unlike Lindsay.
[> [> I agree -- Wizard, 14:17:22 05/20/04 Thu
Lindsey was very (potentially) dangerous, and Marcus, if you believed
him, was the Caleb to the Senior Partners' First. Harmony, for
all the growth she has done, is still somewhat ineffectual (and
while her betrayal didn't surprise me, it did disappoint me).
Eve is, as you said not terribly ambitious. I believe I've heard
her called Lilah-lite. Now, Lilah... I think that if she was still
around, Angel would have had Lorne take care of her, too.
[> Spoilers above! -- Athena, 20:05:26 05/21/04 Fri
[> So a more feminist message would have been 'women should
die too?' -- Bjerkley, 13:33:54 05/22/04 Sat
As feminist messages go, I can think of better ones.
Harmony and Eve weren't spared because they were women, but because
they were largely harmless (although who knows with Harmony in
the future - it must be the contempt we all hold her in). So I
think it's down to the individual to decide whether it's just
happenstance by virture of them being women, or that the fact
they are women make them ineffectual. Given the long history of
very effective evil women on AtS I'm thinking it's an easy answer.
Actually, William The Poet makes some interesting comments over
at The Stakehouse, along the lines of that the absence of the
feminine leads to disaster for the gang. That the lack of this
is a negative. Check out his posts for the exact argument, but
it's a convincing one.
Angel's judgement (finale
spoilers) -- Ames, 06:41:24 05/20/04 Thu
Angel admits he killed Drogyn because "they would have killed
both of us" if he hadn't? Wow, that's morally ambiguous.
Then he decides to let Harmony go - with a letter of recommendation,
no less - even though she's an evil, soulless vampire who is likely
to prey on humans again.
But he has Lorne murder Lindsey, a human with a soul, just because
he's concerned which way Lindsey might lean in the future? Like
the senior partners couldn't find another human instrument if
they tried?
Angel's moral compass just wasn't working here.
Replies:
[> Re: Angel's judgement (finale spoilers) -- Evan,
08:58:24 05/20/04 Thu
I pretty much agree with you, but I'll defend Angel the best I
can.
Drogyn's life was worth it for the successful execution of his
plan, according to Angel. Many people on this board believe that
what they were doing was quite heroic - taking out the circle
of the black thorn. This season has been all about trying to do
good while playing the other side's game, and I guess that's what
Angel was finally succesful at doing. Evil generally wins over
good because the good guys are so predictable. I guess Angel decided
that he'd had enough of that. I don't think Drogyn's murder was
justified, personally. I think the plan was not well thought out,
and that this horde of demons at the end shows that they pretty
much didn't even make a dent in W&H by taking out the circle.
Other people see it differently. But, given that Angel truly believed
what he was doing was important for the good fight, and the fact
that Drogyn probably would've agreed to be killed if Angel asked
him to, I can see how Angel felt that his actions were morally
justified. I do think it's a bigger gray area than most people
seem to be admitting, though.
Harmony and the letter of recommendation: Okay, Harmony is evil.
And chances are good that she'll feed on humans again now. Yeah,
he really should've staked her. Here's the only explanation I
can think of at the moment - I think Angel really likes Harmony,
and she did do a good job for him this year (most of the time).
I think killing her would've just made him a little depressed
and he needed to be on top of his game to get through this fight.
Maybe, he figured if he lived through it he'd go stake her, but
for now he just wanted to be nice to his "friend".
Lastly, Lindsey: Angel's view on killing humans is different than
Buffy's. Take Conviction, for example. And, I bet he killed some
humans who didn't follow the rules laid out at the beginning of
Harm's Way. He's killed so many people in his lifetime, most of
them innocent, that when he sees a human being who is truly a
danger to the good people in the world, he's willing to take them
out. Lindsey tried to kill Angel this season. He tried to mess
with his head so much with the games he was playing with Spike,
that I think he was also trying to make Angel go bad again and
kill Spike, an ensouled vampire. And he was doing all this to
get in good with the circle of the black thorn. He didn't quite
succeed in the end, because Angel foiled his plan. But if he had,
the gang would've been killing him as a member of the circle.
Lindsey's reason for joining the gang's fight was to feel like
a part of a team who seemed to have power at the moment, and afterwards,
he'd see where they stood. If AI had won the fight, he'd stick
with them. If they lost, he'd return to the evil side and try
to get in good with W&H again. This is a true villain, and if
he were a demon, Angel would've probably killed him long ago.
Being human, having a soul, doesn't mean a whole lot to Angel
if you're not displaying what is good about being human, and actually
using your soul as a conscience. To treat Lindsey a certain way
because of the species he's a part of, not because of his own
individual good/evil actions isn't Angel's style. I'm sure W&H will
find a new human instrument, but I'm sure Angel will be planning
on killing that one too, if he survives. "Keep on fighting",
right?.
Evan.
[> [> Re: Angel's judgement (finale spoilers) --
Gyrus, 13:26:10 05/20/04 Thu
Harmony and the letter of recommendation: Okay, Harmony is
evil. And chances are good that she'll feed on humans again now.
Yeah, he really should've staked her.
Of course, we're assuming the letter didn't burst into flames
and incinerate Harmony the moment she ripped it open to find out
whether or not Angel wrote anything nice about her. (Given Angel's
use of traps and his ability to predict Harmony's behavior in
this episode, it wouldn't surprise me if that happened. Then again,
if it had, they probably would have shown it.)
[> [> True -- Wizard, 15:15:04 05/20/04 Thu
I definietly agree that it is hypocritical to punish individuals
differently based on species. All else being equal, souled creatures
are usually worse than unsouled creatures because the souled can
see the difference between good and evil (although there are several
unsouled creatures who are pure evil- Angelus, the Master, Adam...).
Lindsay has yo-yoed between good and evil. Yeah, he's got a weakness
for power, but he still has a conscience. Who says what his life
may have been? Yeah, he may have taken over Wolfram and Hart,
or he may have had a changeof heart.
Killing Drogan was wrong. If he'd went willingly, sacrificing
himself in order to let the Fang Gang have their shot at the Circle,
it would have been okay. Instead, he went to his end believe that
a man he loved like a brother had betrayed everything they both
stood for. Was it worth it? I can't say.
Harmony- well, maybe she was right, and maybe she was wrong. Harmony's
turned on them before. On the other hand, she's undergone some
genuine growth since then. Should Angel have killed her? Probably.
[> [> Re: Angel's judgement (finale spoilers) --
anom, 20:26:03 05/23/04 Sun
"Harmony and the letter of recommendation: Okay, Harmony
is evil. And chances are good that she'll feed on humans again
now."
I doubt it--the reason she applied for the W&H job was that she
was no good at the whole evil thing. Most vampires don't need
to make a living...I get the feeling Harmony was buying her blood
(or stealing it from blood banks) even before the zero tolerance
policy was instituted. So maybe she's not that much of a threat.
On the other hand, there's only 1 way she could know she's a right-biter...but
maybe the recommendation is so she won't have to feed on
humans.
[> Did Angel really have time for Harmony? -- Finn Mac
Cool, 15:56:03 05/20/04 Thu
He had just been thrown threw two windows and down a few storeys;
I imagine that took a little of the fight out of him, at least
enough that he wouldn't be able to just pull out a stake and dust
Harmony in an instant. He had to save his energy for fighting
Marcus and couldn't afford the risk of still fighting Harmony
when Super-Charged-Liason got out of the elevator. As for the
recommendation, which is likely to cause more harm to people:
a vampire with a good job who still feeds on people, or an unemployed
vampire who has to kill to get things like clothes, an apartment,
and the like as well as for blood? If Angel's not going to kill
her, I see no sense in making it more difficult for her to get
work.
[> Re: Angel's judgement (finale spoilers) -- Corwin
of Amber, 21:39:54 05/20/04 Thu
Angel's moral compass is kind of irrelevant. He's kicked the board
over and started a new game, and the old rules don't apply.
Drogyn...well given that Angel signed away Shanshu for himself,
why does it surprise you that he killed Drogyn? Yes, it's evil,
but from Angel's perspective, it's just another step on the path
to his goal...if there's no reward at the end of the line...there's
no punishment other than that which you give yourself, is there?
As for the demon army...that's exactly what Wolf, Ram and Hart
doesn't stand for. WR&H is evil as corruption, not evil as destruction.
WR&H is now fighting by rules they didn't make, for the first
time. And you know what? There's a slayer army out there, too.
A demon army converging on an alley in LA would probably attract
it's attention.
Remembering the Anne'ts (spoilers
last nights epi) -- Ann, 06:43:55 05/20/04 Thu
The importance of Anne'ts.
Dr. Gregory: Their ancestors were here long before we were. Their
progeny will be here long after we are gone. The simple and ubiquitous
ant. Now. If you read the homework, you should know the two ways
that ants communicate. Miss Summers.
BUFFY: Ways that ants communicate...
Dr. Gregory: (nodding his head) Mm.
BUFFY: With other ants.
Anne, the character who began as an unnamable girl, someone who
couldn't find herself or even name herself, with an adopted persona,
has become the woman that who without any higher powers, without
any resources, became the crux of last night's show. She knew
she had to pack those boxes. She knew how to pack those boxes
on the truck and she knew how to get others to pack those boxes.
She voicing JW's main philosophical underpinning of the show,
you fight the good fight. You survive and do good or die trying.
Apocalypses come and go, but the Anne'ts are still there. They
survive without heroes, although it helps, they survive without
the help or guidance of higher powers. Illyria was concerned with
all of the Anne'ts around her when she returned. She saw and recognized
their power.
Joss Whedon gives the world back to the "little people".
The Buffy's, the Angel's, and all of the supernatural fights that
happen, need to happen for the little people, the ants. They cannot
be forgotten. Their stories need to be told. Angel's guiding force
was helping the helpless. He did. His path was a crown of thorns
sometimes; in fact, all of the time, but Anne reminded us last
night that her wishes and needs, need to be remembered.
Joss Whedon remembered.
I will truly miss this world.
Replies:
[> i was hoping that would happen...just not quite like
that -- anom, 22:54:19 05/20/04 Thu
"She knew how to pack those boxes on the truck and she knew
how to get others to pack those boxes. She voicing JW's main philosophical
underpinning of the show, you fight the good fight."
I like to think of it more in terms of working than of fighting.
I know, fighting is the metaphor of the show (both shows), but
I've known a lot of activists who tend to talk about "the
struggle," & for me that always implies something dramatic,
using up a lot of energy, but not very effective. The people (worker
Anne'ts?) who keep packing the boxes & making slow progress may
well be doing more good. In any case, we definitely need both.
I'm interpreting the Senior Partners & other forces of "evil"
as the powerful in the world who are most interested in increasing
their own power/money (not a stretch--"love of money is the
root of all evil"!), whether network execs, corporation heads
willing to do things that harm people in neighborhoods they never
have to look at if it increases profits, or politicians who write
laws that let them do those things. We need to have activists
informing the public, organizing demonstrations, getting out the
vote, orchestrating letter-writing or email campaigns to directly
counteract those actions, & we also need people directly aiding
the ones who are harmed by those actions, helping them find (or
keep) homes, get decent educations, get away from abusers, have
enough food. (And I'm still trying to figure out how the end of
the episode might be metanarration...well, not really the very
end, but taking out the Circle. Are the Gang like whistleblowers
whose exposure of wrongdoing actually takes down an evil corporation,
even though there'll be another one?)
"Angel's guiding force was helping the helpless. He did."
So does Anne.
[> [> Re: i was hoping that would happen...just not quite
like that -- Ann, 06:31:40 05/22/04 Sat
And I'm still trying to figure out how the end of the episode
might be metanarration...
Well to take the dragon's view from high above, Angel, Gunn and
Spike would have looked like ants. The black circle keeps turning,
each point another dig or gouge at the attempt to fight it. This
may have been the hole in the world that they were "fighting".
It did look like a drill bit in a mine to dig tunnels. Circles
are never ending so the destruction would continue and that is
why the story did not end. Both a metaphor for continuing the
good fight and the fact that one has to because the evil will
continue. These are mirrors of one another, yet another twin.
I agree that the worker Anne'ts have the harder job because there
is no glory, no heroism other than pride in what you do. Keeping
the faith is much harder if you are not called a champion and
given that label. This boosts Angel in his darkest times even
if he is mocking it. Anne doesn't have that. Her story, which
has come so far and didn't take several lifetimes like Angel's,
is not over either.
[> [> [> Re: i was hoping that would happen...just
not quite like that -- lunasea, 11:18:14 05/22/04 Sat
Keeping the faith is much harder if you are not called a champion
and given that label.
I can't agree with this. In his heart Angel doesn't feel the champion.
Everytime someone tries to elevate him to that status, something
inside of him is uncomfortable.
Not saying that Anne has it any easier. Just saying that each
of us have our crosses to bear and no one really has it any easier
or harder than anyone else. The grass looks greener on the other
side. It is easy for us to say that Angel has it easier because
he is called Champion. How many of us can identify with that?
Life would be so much easier if everyone respected us like that.
Until they do and that burden is placed on us, a burden we aren't
sure we can carry.
Angel: "I feel something coming, Doyle. I don't know what,
but I know we're a part of it."
Doyle: "Well, if it's a fight they want - can't someone else
give it to them? (Angel smiles) It seems unfair, you know? You
gotta save all the helpless types around here and now you've got
to fight the apocalypse as well?"
Angel gets up: "It's all the same thing. Fight the good fight
- whichever way you can."
The Anne'ts shouldn't be dismissed, but neither should the Angels.
[> [> [> [> Re: i was hoping that would happen...just
not quite like that -- Ann, 05:36:46 05/23/04 Sun
I think it is a matter of resources. Angel had more of those than
Anne. He had a prophesy, a long history of experience (that he
didn't always use in the best way) and good friends. Those should,
but I agree don't always, help. That was my problem with his decision
regarding Connor in Home. I don't think he tried hard enough given
his resources. He used the one resource that took his son away
from him, and took memories away from his son. Not a good choice
IMO. Everyone bears their own burdens for sure, but Angel didn't
always use his resources wisely. I think Anne traveled further
in a much shorter period of time. Yes the circumstances were different,
but she had way fewer resources. Thank goodness she met Buffy.
I guess the same could be said for Angel.
Also, I think it might have to do with expectations. Personally
I expect more from those with more resources. I don't think they
have an excuse not to fight the good fight. Politically, economically
I think they should fight harder, because they can.
Reflections on Angel Finale
(SPOILERS plus references to early seasons) -- StarryNightShade,
07:59:29 05/20/04 Thu
Reflections on the Angel Finale.
First let me say that while this is my first post on this board,
how much I appreciate the articulate and insightful discussions
about Angel.
I've only recently returned from being abroad for a decade; and
I didn't have access to either Btvs or Ats in English. I only
discovered Angel a couple of months ago. Since then it's been
a mammoth catch-up project....still I wanted to view the final
episode as it happened. So while I may miss things because I haven't
viewed some prior shows, it does mean that I've got a perspective
that comes from a compressed viewing. The longer story arcs stand
out much stronger.
My reflections are my own personal response, which might be entirely
correct for me yet be entirely incorrect for someone else. That's
the way of art....and believe me Angel is art.
1) Filling in the troughs: Given the "man dies of heart attack
in his prime" situation for the series, we were never going
to have all the bits and pieces explained. We were and did only
get the wave tops. The troughs we've got to do ourselves; and
given what Joss Whedon has done over eight years we have to give
him the and his characters the benefit of the doubt. They have
their warts, but some how they do come through on the good side.
2) Redemption: In no way do I believe that the message at the
end is there is no redemption for Angel. Nothing that Joss has
said or written would leave one to that conclusion. Some characters
may die without being redeemed, but to create a 5 year series
about the redemption of a remarkable character that ends saying....sorry,
but no redemption's possible for the guy....just does not seem
like Joss Whedon even at his most pessimistic. No redemption =
no hope = no grace = no forgiveness. If that's what someone want's
to believe than they are welcome to it. Personally I think we
often underestimate the possibility of redemption; and maybe that's
due to our incapacity to forgive. [Aside: reading a lot fan reactions
to incidents I detect a strange reaction...kill a bit player and
that's okay, but kill a beloved character (e.g. Jenny Calendar)
and there's no forgiveness. I think there's still some out there
that haven't forgiven Angel for that death.]
3) For me - Angel's best moment....ever: Sacrificing his last
hope for the greater good by signing away his rights to the Shanshu
prophecy. In fact, I believe that marks the utlitimate statement
of the fact that he is redeemed are at least at the beginning
of the path to "normality". This act, even if he thought
that he no longer believed in the prophecy hit him in the same
way that signing official documents hits us in our lives (e.g.
signing those final divorce papers). I think it really hit him...finally
he got in touch with his emotions, something that is essential
for the character. The next scene shows him quietly grieving for
his loss...tears in his eyes....desparate because he can't remember
being human. Probably he's thinking about his life as Liam...which
is best forgotten. However, Harmony says what she misses is a
beating heart that quickens when she kisses a boyfriend. That
is the last thing said in the scene...so it's important. It mirrors
a similar conversation between a temporarily human Angel and Buffy
in season one. If Angel had forgotten about being human, you can
be sure he will remember after that. The story doesn't dwell on
his response at all...there's too little time in 40 minutes for
that. [It's worthwhile remembering the 3rd trial in The Trial
and the relationship between sacrifice and reward.]
4) It seems to me Angel does change: After the exchange with Harmony,
I thought Angel did change. He was lighter than he's been in quite
a few episodes. My god, he even smiles in the episode...not the
"Cordy says she loves me" big smile, but smiles nonetheless.
He's attempting to move on from Buffy with his new girlfriend
and taking a shot at some level of happiness (gypsy curse bedamned).
Angel is way overdue to put the curse's loophole behind him. It
or at least the fear of it really has limited his ability to explore
relationships, but maybe he wasn't ready before now. Maybe he
can learn from Spike's history that he doesn't have to be a victim
of this curse forever. Obviously he has a sense purpose throughout
the finale, but more than that he seems centred...not even Spike's
jab about him not getting the shanshu fazes him. In his fight
with Hamilton he definitely puts himself in the camp of "those
who care", who will never be understood by "those who
don't care" (remember the words from season 2 by Lindsey's
boss..."some how I just can't seem to care"). My sense
about Angel in this episode was here is a "human being"
with courage and heart. By "human being" I mean not
a physiological human being but a spiritual / psychological one.
This contrasts with Angel at the very beginning when he is very
disconnected from humanity....unable to engage in small talk,
deal emotionally, etc. It's worthwhile remembering that prior
to that Buffy was really his contact with humanity. At the very
end of the series Angel is not disconnected, but reconciled with
his son, trying to establish a love relationship (not shown),
and going into battle with his family (Gunn a human, Spike who's
dripped with humanity for a long time and Illyria who seems to
be gaining her humanity bit by bit). For me, the "human"
Angel was back after his sacrifcie and grief (however subtly that
grief was shown). Maybe he will always be a vampire physiologically.
St. Paul in his letters talks about the thorn in his side which
is his strength and his salvation. Maybe vampirism is just that
for Angel, the source of his spiritual humanity.
5) The final battle: My first reaction was, "wait it can't
be over here", but that is my need for tidy endings to movies
and TV shows. Life's not like that. In life closure is death in
the many ways that are so unsavory...cancer, alzheimers, sudden
heart attack. Nor is life, "I get the big end-of-the-movie-reward
and then live happily ever after". To understand this read
about life after the first man-on-the-moon landings for those
astronauts. Life has highs and lows and goes on until death....no
nice movie endings. This ending shows just that...the battle goes
on for the characters, for Joss Whedon and his universe, for us
spiritually / psychologically. On that last point, the ending
is very much in line with the idea that we are tip-of-the-iceberg
conscious and mostly underwater unconscious. Overcome the demons
at hand and there's always more awaiting us to deal with....the
image of the demon horde is perfect....just outlines...no features
are distinguishable, which is just like those demons lurking beneath
the surface of our own psyche. How do we deal with it? Just like
Angel...take on the one closest at hand...the dragon. On the story
level Joss has given himself complete freedom for whatever happens
in the future...Angel movie, Spike spin-off or nothing at all.
For the four left, they can all live, all die (not that death
means final) or something in between. There's too many uncertainties
for Joss to box himself in....just not like him to do that. Do
the four have a chance? They're pretty powerful individuals...and
the evil horde is leaderless. There's a thing about leaderless
evil hordes, I don't think it's in character for them to fight
to the death. Also, the heroes are in a narrow alley...not all
of the horde can get at them at once. Think of Horatio at the
bridge or the Spartans at Thermopylae...of course, these heroes
died, so that's an option too. Anyway, Angel went into battle
with a little smile on his face....I'm not sure he was thinking
that this was the end for him, but it's strikingly similar to
the ending of the movie, "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance
Kid". Hmmmm....they didn't survive either. I guess, my point
is that for me I doesn't matter...it doesn't lessen the story
either way.
6) Wesley's death: Very poignant....and I think the best option
for the character. At last he can have peace...and maybe Illryia's
lie (?) is right....maybe Fred is waiting for him. Touching thought
anyway.
7) Rationale for killing Drogyn: Probably not dealt with sufficiently....but
I'd hate to be in Angel's shoes to make such a choice. There'll
likely always be a question mark there. Is this different than
Wesley ordering the rebels on Lorne's home world to a certain
death as a diversion for the greater good? Is it more justifiable
because Wesley's hands don't get bloody? It's been the fate of
Angel that his choices are so often in his face...his hands get
bloody...he doesn't get the benefit of the buffer that Wesley
had with his decision about the rebel diversions. Does that make
Angel worse than Wesley? This happens all around us in our life.
Somebody else butchers the animals, whose flesh we eat. Maybe
we'd be better off if the consequences of our decisions were in
our faces. Just a thought before condemning Angel.
8) Lindsey's assassination: Confused me and it's discussed very
well elsewhere on this board. The only point I'll add is that
Lindsey's weakness is power and power corrupts as Angel has found
out. Perhaps Lindsey dying here with his act on the side of good
is his salvation?
9) Little acts versus big acts: There's been much discussion about
ending with a big act making the statement that the little acts
are important. Maybe it's not either / or, maybe it's both. We
need to do the big heroic acts when we have the opportunity to
do so (think Martin Luther King / Nelson Mandela / and so many
others) and we also need day-to-day to do the small acts of kindness.
It's a balance. That's my experience working in a big government
bureaucracy that seems oh-so-capable of doing evil...little evil...people
"retired on the job with no passion", idealims that
turns to cynicism, corruption of senior managers, etc. Sometimes
the responsibility for a big fight lands in your lap....is it
right to turn away with a "no, only the small acts count".
Most of the time it's the day-to-day small acts I can do for the
people who work for me, the people I work for, etc. In any event...Angel's
rejected the corruption of "senior managment" with the
biggest, badest "take this job and shove it" that there
ever was. Sometimes you've got to do that to.
The above reflections are my personal response. Yours will undoubtedly
be different in some way and maybe similar in others. Overall,
I felt optimistic, but then again I've been influenced by people
like Paul Tillich (e.g. read his book, "The Courage to Be"
where he describes the courage to live with personal meaning even
if we can't be sure that life is anything other than meaningless.
Thanks for reading this far,
SNS
Replies:
[> Welcome to the Board, and thank you.. -- Jane, 08:11:30
05/20/04 Thu
for a beautiful and moving post. I'm still so emotional about
this whole amazing creation that Joss Whedon has given us, and
by the stunning end/not end. I sit here with tears flowing, quite
overcome by the way I will miss this show. I am so glad that people
like you share these feelings. Thank you.
[> [> Re: Welcome to the Board, and thank you.. --
SNS, 08:29:52 05/20/04 Thu
Thanks for your gracious comments and welcome. It means a lot.
The post was just something that I had to say to someone and this
board has got the folks that really think about the Joss Whedon.
You see I've become obsessed by it; and that means I have to understand
why...and as I've discovered Angel's story has intersected my
personal life in more ways than I'm comfortable with. What I can
share is:
Myers-Briggs (Personality) Type Indicator: I'm the same as Buffy,
my wife's the same as Angel and my ex-wife is the same as Spike....yikes!!!
The MBTI types (as my best guess) are for those MBTI fans out
there ENFP / INFJ / ESFP, which explains a lot (at least to me).
I worked for 7 years under an alcoholic boss (Angel is metaphorically
about alcoholism) who damaged me in oh-so-many ways. I had to
learn to forgive not only for his sake for myself...so I could
move on. A good thing too! I was asked to give the farewell appreciation
speech as he left work. That felt really good that I could do
it with honesty and the ability to recognise the good things that
he did for me. So, I bristle...just a bit...when some people post
a message that says, "Angel can't won't be redeemed".
Says something about them and not Angel, but that's just my view.
I mentioned working for a bureaucracy in my earlier post.
And there's other ways I'm still working through.
SNS
[> [> [> Thanks for a great read -- Antigone,
09:42:39 05/20/04 Thu
[> You should write here more often in future! Thank you
for this, SNS. -- Briar Rose, 15:01:02 05/20/04 Thu
[> [> That's nice, thanks. -- SNS, 19:18:50 05/21/04
Fri
[> Re: Reflections on Angel Finale (SPOILERS plus references
to early seasons) -- Cheryl, 16:12:43 05/20/04 Thu
8) Lindsey's assassination: Confused me and it's discussed
very well elsewhere on this board. The only point I'll add is
that Lindsey's weakness is power and power corrupts as Angel has
found out. Perhaps Lindsey dying here with his act on the side
of good is his salvation?
First, thank you for posting such wonderful insights. I loved
this episode except for what they did with Lindsey. Based on the
chat last night and most posts here, I'm in the minority thinking
Lindsey was redeemable and that it wasn't Angel's right to be
judge, jury, and executioner (through Lorne). I like your idea
that his dying now, fighting on the side of good, could be his
salvation (although I'm still hoping he was wearing Kevlar or
had some mojo up his sleeve - but that's just wishful thinking).
So here are some of the reasons I have for thinking Lindsey's
assasination was wrong:
1) Yes, Lindsey wants power. As we learned way back in S1's Blind
Date, he's the poor kid from the wrong side of the tracks who
saw his father being squashed and he never wants to be that. And
yet, he still seems to waffle back and forth between good and
evil. In Blind Date and in Dead End we see this. Which leads me
to my biggest problem with Lindsey's character:
2) What the heck happened between Dead End Lindsey and S5 Lindsey?
If we had been given some background to see what led him to the
tattoos and Nepal and all the mojo and his grande scheme, then
maybe I would say he's beyond redeemable. And how did he get the
amulet to bring back Spike? How did he and Eve hook up? Until
I know what happened to him, I won't automatically assume that
he's gone EVIL and is unredeemable.
3) Redemption - isn't that a big part of what Angel was all about?
The hypocrisy does not sit well with me. That someone like Angel
would presume Lindsey was beyond hope and deserved to die because
he *might* do something in the future - doesn't fly with me. Angel
couldn't have been that afraid of Lindsey, could he? Maybe Lindsey
will deserve to die someday, but it shouldn't have been last night.
4) I can't help thinking of Faith and what she was when she came
to L.A. - how many she had killed and hurt (including Wes) - and
yet Angel somehow recognized it was a plea for help. To me, Lindsey
was in a similar situation. People say Angel gave him chances,
especially in Blind Date. But I don't think Angel did. Angel didn't
care if Lindsey died trying to help those kids, didn't care about
the risk Lindsey was taking, didn't bother to find out what happened
to Lindsey back at W&H when he didn't return right away. Didn't
the fact that Lindsey took the initiative and risked everything
by going to Angel to help those kids say something? The only support
Lindsey has ever received has been from W&H. He was young
and impressionable and had an attitude. And I felt back then and
still feel the same now, that Angel should have tried harder with
him. Angel even apologized for that in Epiphany. Of course, the
story would be completely different and I wouldn't have changed
all the great friction and story between the two of them, but
for people to say Angel did everything he could to help Lindsey
but Lindsey still turned his back on good, I don't accept.
5) Lindsey has done some bad/evil things, yes. He's not alone,
however. And, apparently he's not evil enough to make the cut
for the Circle of the Black Thorn. People say his intent was to
kill Angel to make it into the Circle. He had plenty of opportunities
to do so, and yet didn't. He sent Spike to save Angel from the
parasite thing he'd planted. If he wanted Angel dead, why didn't
he use his mojo in You're Welcome to turn that sword into wood
when he "staked" Angel? Why did he bring back Spike
and steer him toward taking over the champion role? He must have
known that he was adding another good guy to the ranks.
6) What was the last thing we saw with Lindsey before Lorne executed
him? Washing the blood from his hands and talking about how he
liked being part of the team. And then Lorne took that all away
from him.
I'm done ranting. Thanks to those who read this. I'm not saying
Lindsey doesn't deserve to die - I'm saying I don't think there
was enough reason for him to die last night the way that he did.
Although, I'm twisted enough to love Lindsey's disbelief that
Angel would have a flunkie do it. When he said Angel was supposed
to be the one to kill him, that's when I immediately thought of
Faith.
So, if there is ever a movie my wish now is that Lindsey comes
back to haunt Angel as his conscience when Angel is torn between
some major decision. Next to Angel & Spike, Angel & Lindsey had
the best dialogue together. I think Lindsey coming back to haunt
Angel would be funny and touching.
I'm done now, thanks!
[> [> Re: Reflections on Angel Finale (SPOILERS plus
references to early seasons) -- SNS, 19:28:05 05/21/04
Fri
All good points.
I think Joss has left a little too much to the viewer's imagination
here. I don't mind if not all is told, but here....I agree, I'm
not comfortable with it.
We have to ask, "is this action in character for Angel and
Lorne?" If not, then the blame belongs to Joss or WB for
cancelling the show and forcing the ending.
I wouldn't worry about this death precluding a future Angel & Lindsey
encounter....death is a strangely temporary phenomenon when it
suits Joss....and other times it's permenant (e.g. Joyce, Jenny
Calendar)
SNS
[> [> [> Re: Reflections on Angel Finale (SPOILERS
plus references to early seasons) -- Cheryl, 21:33:45 05/21/04
Fri
I wouldn't worry about this death precluding a future Angel
& Lindsey encounter....death is a strangely temporary phenomenon
when it suits Joss....and other times it's permenant (e.g. Joyce,
Jenny Calendar)
I agree. You can never know what Joss has up his sleeve with these
characters. But I'm still hoping Lindsey comes back to torment
Angel. :-) I wonder if he had that perpetual clause with W&H or
if that would have come later if he'd stayed and been promoted
instead of Lilah?
[> [> [> [> Must Lindsey die? -- SNS, 04:24:20
05/22/04 Sat
One further thought on Lindsey I had over night....yeah I do wake
up at night thinking about it.
When Angel came up with his plan he didn't even expect to survive
the encounter with Hamilton never mind the Alleyway assault. So
what could he expect...that Lindsey would become CEO of W&H and
would almost assuredly be picked to join the renewed Circle of
the Black Thorn....both were ambitions of Lindsey's. So there's
little doubt that Lindsey would do it; and knowing what Angel
knew about what it takes to join the Circle he would understand
better than anyone what that would do to Lindsey....maybe he'd
even end up a demon. Angel wanted the Black Circle destroyed and
in the SP in as much disarray as possible before the group of
Champions were destroyed by the SP retaliation. Lindsey's a strong
enough character that he's likely to have got the SP back on their
feet sooner rather than later. So, given limited options...Lindsey
must die...not as a judgment on his chances of redemption but
as a messy, ambivalent and expedient choice. Maybe that's a stretch,
but....maybe Joss was trying to cram too much in.
My understanding from comments made by Joss is that a 6th season
would have seen the gang dealing with the ensuing chaos...what
if we need a balance between good and evil...or if the consequences
of eliminating an evil regime is worse than the regime? Angel
might rue his decision.
SNS
P.S. A little later I'm going to post a quick military analysis
of the chances that our Champions survive the Minions of Hell.
[> [> [> [> [> Above is moral question, not
a plot statement but 5.22 SPOILERS in text -- SNS, 07:32:15
05/22/04 Sat
[> [> [> [> [> I'm starting to get it now
-- Cheryl, 07:57:44 05/22/04 Sat
So what could he expect...that Lindsey would become CEO of
W&H and would almost assuredly be picked to join the renewed Circle
of the Black Thorn....both were ambitions of Lindsey's. So there's
little doubt that Lindsey would do it; and knowing what Angel
knew about what it takes to join the Circle he would understand
better than anyone what that would do to Lindsey....maybe he'd
even end up a demon. Angel wanted the Black Circle destroyed and
in the SP in as much disarray as possible before the group of
Champions were destroyed by the SP retaliation. Lindsey's a strong
enough character that he's likely to have got the SP back on their
feet sooner rather than later. So, given limited options...Lindsey
must die...not as a judgment on his chances of redemption but
as a messy, ambivalent and expedient choice. Maybe that's a stretch,
but....maybe Joss was trying to cram too much in.
I started thinking about this, too. After reading a lot of posts
and reviews on the episode, I rewatched it and got more out of
the scene between Angel and Lindsey. My first thought was, why
would the SP even give Lindsey the chance (again) after he sided
with Angel to take out the Circle? But as Angel pointed out, Lindsey
could say Angel forced him (although I don't know how that would
fly, really). If Lindsey had said 'thanks, but no thanks, I'm
bored with this crap' then Angel probably would have changed his
plans. Angel was testing Lindsey and Lindsey failed. So Angel
went ahead with his plan.
I wonder if Joss's original plan for the finale was to kill Lindsey.
Because, had there been a season 6 and Lindsey had lived, I think
he could have played an important part in the story arc. Dealing
with all the chaos from the aftermath. I still would have liked
Lindsey to come around to the side of good - and that final scene
with Lorne with him washing the blood from his hands and talking
about liking being part of team (and surprised about it), makes
me think there was still hope for him. Maybe he could have gone
ahead with his plan, but with the agenda to actually weaken the
SP more - like a virus. Working with Angel to continue the damage
but from the inside. Doing to the SP what the SP had done to Angel
this year. Again, wishful thinking on my part.
[> [> Re: Reflections on Angel Finale (SPOILERS plus
references to early seasons) -- heywhynot, 09:31:29 05/22/04
Sat
I think the point with Lindsey was that with him it wasn't about
good & evil. It was about power. He always wants it. He is the
type that keeps the circle going. He is what the SP wanted out
of Angel, a person who desired power. The speech Angel made of
why he was fighting, Lindsey tuned it out. He had heard it a million
times. It did not matter to Lindsey; what did was that Angel was
a vampire with big brass testes, ie Angel might just actually
take out the Circle, leaving a power void that Lindsey could step
into.
The desire for power is the hook the SP use to get people to keep
their apacolypse going. It doesn't matter whether their agents
are trying to do good or evil. The point is that they are keeping
the system going. The system is based on gaining more and more
power. Wanting to do more. To gain more power & do greater acts
of good, the small stuff has to be ignored. A cycle that keeps
on going and going.
Lindsey was not killed because he is evil. He was killed because
he wasn't part of the solution. He was another cog in the machine
by his own choosing.
Angel was about grinding the machine to a halt, if even for a
second. To fight the system. Life isn't about power, it is about
living.
Do Not Go Gently Into That
Good Night (My last review - ATs 5.22 spoilers) -- shadowkat,
08:46:18 05/20/04 Thu
Ah Angel...it's over. This is most likely my last essay/review
for a whedonverse series. A moment of silence. Okay on to my review.
Angel's ending did not surprise me nor did it disappoint. It was
much as I predicted, the Wild Bunch ending with possibly
more than a touch of the charm of Butch Cassidy and The Sundance
Kid.
The Wild Bunch and Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
are two westerns that premiered the same year: 1969. A year that
has, oddly enough, a great deal in common with 2004 - we were
in a horrible war that we could not extricate ourselves from.
We distrusted our government. We felt unsafe. And uncertain about
ourselves and our world and our place in it. The films of the
late 60's and early 70's comment on that uncertainty much as Angel
the Series comments on it today.
Both films concerned the adventures of outlaws: The Wild Bunch
- which had been Butch Cassidy's gang, at least historically,
in Peckinpah's version Butch is never referenced, while Butch
and Sundance, a buddy team, who remind me a great deal of Spike
and Angel, only vaguely refers to the Bunch. One film, The Wild
Bunch, was dark and violent, while the other, Butch, had touches
of sardonic humor and quirky Burt Bachnarch tunes, like Raindrops
Keep Failling on My Head. Yet, both ended the same. The aging
outlaws find themselves up against impossible odds - in this case
the Mexican Army. They are outgunned, out-manned and the set-up
is ironically their choice. They had the option to end their retirement
quietly, they could die in their beds, but like Angel and his
gang, they decide to not go gently into that good night.
They rage against the dying of the light and die fighting.
One of the major differences between the endings of the Wild Bunch
and Butch is the final frame, how the director chooses to show
that fight. In Peckinpah's film we see each and every gory detail
in slowmotion. Bullets rip through the protagonists' bodies and
we watch them die graphically upon the screen. Goldman's film,
on the other hand, takes a different route, a more elegant one
in my opinion, that of the freeze frame. We don't see the battle.
We don't see our protagonists die. What we see is their faces
raised up nobly to face what is ahead. This is the shot that Whedon
and Bell choose for Angel and in doing so they pay homage to the
more optimistic of the two films. They also put their own imprint
on it - instead of sand, we have rain, and instead of an open
space, an alley, and instead of all men - a woman stands amongst
them, an incredibly powerful woman, which is something that would
have annoyed both Peckinpah and Goldman.
It's a tricky ending. It certainly was back in 1969. Not bright
and shiny and wrapped in a bow. It's not an ending like most television
endings, which do end "gently". For examples see the
season finals of Star Trek Next Generation, Deep Space Nine,
Fraiser, and Friends. Instead Angel rages against
it's ending. Much like Dylan Thomas' poem,Do not Go Gently
Into That Good Night, states, and much like the two movies
mentioned above. Thomas's poem is about death and in a sense old
age or the struggle against old age. Mortality. It's also about
endings. Just as the title of tonight's episode refers to endings
or rather how we deal with them.
Not Fade Away is the title of two popular rock songs. The
first is the 1950's song by Billy Holly, which some associate
with his untimely death by plane crash in the late 50's early
60's - the event that is at the center of Don Maclean's "The
Day The Music Died". It's the same plane crash that killed
the Big Bopper and Richie Valens - the 1950s equivalent of Justin
Timberlake, and whoever else is at the top of the charts at the
moment. The second is a song by The Grateful Dead, based
loosely on Holly's original lyrics, circa 1969. The song itself
has a great deal in common with Dylan Thomas' poem and William
Goldman's ending of Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid:
all three deal with how we face death, how we face that final
curtain, how in truth we face our own mortality.
Throughout tonight's episode we have allusions to mortality,
what it means to be human, to die, to live, and what purpose if
any we find within it. Angel tells his gang to take the day off
before the final battle - to do something that makes them happy.
One last day. And each one does. Lorne signs a song at a club
while Spike chooses to spend his reciting poetry, a much better
version of an old poem to a much more appreciative crowd. In fact
the new crowd is almost the complete opposite of the old one -
the old one prissy academics filled with their own self-importance,
the new one beefed up, tattooed, tough guys. The contrast is startling
- partly because the first group discusses violence like it was
art, dismissing poetry as a trivial matter or something they wish
to ignore unless it is of a certain level making themselves in
the process feel important by the dismissal, while the second
dismisses the violence, has no interest in really discussing it,
knows what it is and prefers the poetry. At any rate - Spike spends
his last day much as he spent his last human one as William, sharing
his art. Yet in this instance, instead of sharing it with a group
of prissy fools, he shares it with a crowd of people who have
seen far too much violence. Just as the death he goes out to confront
- is not one he embraces gently as a lover, but rages against
like a fighter, determined to live and help the world. His poetry
may not be award-winning poetry, but does it matter? Really? I've
always found criticisms on poetry to be sort of hypocritical to
be honest, all poetry comes from the heart, and all of it is good
or bad depending on the reader or listener. Poetry is a highly
subjective art form after all.
Next is Gunn, who chooses to spend the day helping Anne, Anne
who like Spike, had started her journey waiting to embrace death
like a lover - but now raises her head in the sunlight and embraces
life. Anne began her career as Chanterelle in Lie to Me
S2 BTVS - her neck exposed to Spike's fangs, seeing death as a
better version to life. Buffy saved her, and in the process she
saw what William hadn't when he got turned, the monster. Then
as a night blooming Lily, she follows an old lover down the rabbit
hole to hell- an apt metaphor for her despair. This time she fights
it back, by Buffy's side, as both climb out of hell. (Anne
S3 BTVS). Now having taken on the name of Anne, she has become
a mother of sorts to countless runaways and troubled children
ensuring they don't follow her path and see each day as a new
miracle. When Gunn asks her how she would handle being told life
is meaningless and controlled by fate, she smiles and says cheerily,
I'd still move my boxes to the new shelter and keep on trucking.
Ann learned long ago that it's the day to day fight that matters
not the destination, which can change at a moment's notice.
Then we have Angel and Connor. Connor is struggling to put together
a resume, he is trying to find a regular job. He tells Angel that
he remembers, he knows Angel is his father, and he understand
why Angel did it. And he's grateful. It's like an old nightmare
he states. And he also once again tells Angel to lighten up. An
echo of Spike. See the humor in it. Connor has moved on to the
"business" of living. Juxtaposed to this is Wes and
Illyria - Wes still mourning Fred, Wes who of all the characters
most wishes to embrace death - and hopefully through death his
dead lover on the other side. He cannot see the live one in front
of him, for the dead one she resembles. So he spends his last
day with Illyria - in a sense - mourning Fred.
Last, we have Lindsey and Eve, and Lindsey's comment that Eve
chose to give up her "immortality" to be with him. The
reverse of Darla, whom Lindsey turned immortal in order to keep.
Their romance in many ways is the photo-negative of the Darla/Lindsey
romance. And it ends in the reverse as well - with Lindsey dying
and Eve remaining trapped at WR&H, alone.
The other allusion to mortality is the shanshue prophecy, which
Angel reluctantly signs away. He lets go of it. Stating he doesn't
want to be human. Yet...one wonders. He asks Harmony if she misses
it and she struggles with the idea. Not really. But wait, yes,
she misses her heart beating whenever she kissed a really cool
guy. She does miss that. Once again the metaphor of the un-beating/dead
heart. Spike also references the prophecy, curious to know which
of them will get it or if it is even an option? He's pretty certain
it isn't but just to be sure, asks. Angel shrugs it off, stating
it's doubtful they'll live. One wonders at this point - has Angel
given up?
For an answer - we come back to the title of the piece and the
Dylan Thomas poem. Not Fade Away, Do not go gentle into that good
night...it's not about giving up and it's not about holding onto
something that we shouldn't have - such as eternal life. It's
about something else - it's about fighting for the light. As Angel
attempts to explain to Hamilton, whom he realizes can never understand:
Not letting ourselves succumb to darkness and despair. Not giving
in to the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart, who attempt to manipulate
the world with their strings.
Here's the Dylan Thomas poem for those who are curious:
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Dylan Thomas, 1951 or 1952
http://www.liebreich.com/LDC/HTML/Various/Thomas.html
This poem makes me think of Wesley. And no, I was not surprised
by his death. I figured out he was going to die last Friday actually,
a friend inadvertently said something that somehow caused me to
piece it together, although I think I would have figured it out
anyway. It just fit. Why? Ah. Wes is the old man of the piece.
Tired. Worn out. He's been with Angel since the beginning. And
he is the last of the original team, the original team that was
once made up of Doyle and Cordelia, and after Doyle's death -
Wes. Angel is left to fight his final battle with the new team
- Gunn, Illyria and Spike. Also as Wes, himself, states to Illyria,
he has nothing to live for. He wants to die. He is the only one
of the group - who I believe does. Yet, he does rage against the
dying of the light. He does fight. The man he fights? Is the one
responsible for both removing his painful memories and for restoring
them. A Wizard of sorts, a person who lies. Wes tells Illyria,
he's tired of lies. He wants truth. He's tired of magic, slight
of hand, and illusions. But when he dies - he requests the lie,
he wants the illusion. Wouldn't it be ironic if in that dying
moment, Illyria unwittingly gave him the truth?
Illyria certainly doesn't go gentle into that good night. She's
old. Yet young. And her grief throws her, overwhelms her. Fills
her with rage and passion. Had Illyria truly fallen for Wes? Was
that scene the photo-negative of Fred's death in Hole in The
World? Perhaps. Illyria rages as he dies and with her fist
smashes through Vail's face just as Connor once smashed his through
Jasmine another teller of lies and weaver of illusions (Peace-Out
ATS S4). Also both old ones, far past their prime, taken down
by one they'd under-estimated.
Life and death...are juxtaposed here with the Wes/Illyria scene
and Spike and the baby. As Wes lies dying, we find Spike saving
the child Angel reportedly gave to the demons. He fights them
off with a quip. And the scene reminds me of another one long
ago, where Angel saved a child from Darla, who requested he eat
it in front of her. (Darla ATS S2). It's also a reference
to the idea of the sacrifice of innocence - Spike who'd lost his
innocence in a vampire's arms ages ago, and has taken the innocence
of countless others, in this moment is saving an innocent from
a similar fate. While Gunn is battling vampires and going after
the senator, who represents both his past and where his desire
for intellectual power may have lead him. The Senator is similar
in description to Gunn's sister, and like his sister, the woman
who was once the senator is no longer in residence, a demon soul
occupies her long-vacated shell. So it is fitting that Gunn, who
chose at one point to become something he's not, with implants,
ends up killing a person who made a similar choice.
Meanwhile Lorne, who despises violence, is stuck watching Lindsey
do his part for the team. Lindsey has agreed to join Angel's team.
Or so we are lead to believe. After all - it only makes sense
that these two take down WR&H together. Except Angel refuses to
give Lindsey his final moment - it is not Angel who kills Lindsey.
Nor is it Angel who engages Lindsey in a final battle. That task
is left to Lorne - who does it abruptly, neatly, and quickly with
few words. "Wait," Lindsey screams, "I'm on your
team. Want to hear me sing?" " No," Lorne replies,
"I've already heard you sing." (Dead End S2 ATS)
The master of empathy and mercy - does the opposite. It's why
Lorne isn't in the final battle and it's why Lorne tells Angel
goodbye, you won't see me after this and don't look for me even
if you survive. It also may be why Lorne's opinion of their work
and Angel has changed so drastically. Lorne has lost himself and
falls into the passages of the demon night. The world he had hoped
to leave behind him in Pylea. Retreating. While Lindsey dies moaning
about Angel, like a rejected lover wishing for that last kiss,
Eve stands in Angel's office alone, lost, forlorne in her former
garden.
The garden does have a betrayer, of course, and that is Harmony
- who does as Angel expected, betray him. Much like Eve betrays
Adam. Harmony argues she wouldn't have if he'd shown any respect
or had faith in her. And one can't help but wonder if Harm has
a point - if he had, would she have betrayed him to Hamilton?
Or did Angel in effect push Harmony into doing it - so he could
play out his end of the plan? It does however remind me of the
first Harmony episode, Disharmony, S2 ATS, where Angel
tells Cordy that Harmony will betray them - given the first good
opportunity. She can't help it. She doesn't have a soul. Is Angel
right? One isn't sure - since people with souls betray you all
the time. Or is Harmony right - his inability to have faith in
her - causes her to betray him?
Angel's final on-screen battle is of course with the Wolf, the
Ram, and The Hart as represented by Hamilton. All the things Angel
may have once aspired to. Power. Ambition. The great-achiever.
And for a while it looks like Hamilton has the upper hand, but
along comes Conner, the expression of life - who lends a hand.
Connor shows up oddly enough just after Hamilton tells Angel he
was a waste as a human and has accomplished nothing worthwhile.
Connor, of course, is evidence to the contrary, a mortal child
with a mortal life. Connor aids Angel and in doing so seals the
loop on his own story. WR&H gave Connor his new life and Connor
helps his father bring down their house of cards. The house of
cards that had a hand in creating Connor to begin with. Connor
can't be the one to beat Hamilton of course. Nor can he really
stay to watch Angel do it with the house falling down around them.
Connor's arc has ended, he must go and live his life, he must
leave the business of killing behind him. He's long since ceased
being part of it. This is Angel's fight and Angel's fight is as
always primarily with himself. Hamilton in some ways represents
the dark part of himself, just as Lindsey did, and all that dark
part yearned for. Immortality. Not caring about anyone. Power.
Power coursing through his blood. Hamilton also represents the
Powers That Be, the Senior Partners and fate. You can't beat me
- he tells Angel, I'm beyond you. Above you. But Angel does, by
sucking his blood - just as he sucked Hamilton's twin's blood,
Drogyn - one weak and one powerful. By sucking Drogyn - he gets
into the circle, by sucking Hamilton he breaks the circle wide
open, flipping over the game, pulling down the house, and unleashing
the hordes just like the anti-heroes in those old Westerns once
did ages ago.
The last scene is a fitting one - Angel in the rain, in an alley,
next to three friends. It isn't exactly an echo of the first scene
in the first episode City Of , which we see in the opening credits
every week - Angel walking alone in the rain in an alley, no -
that came just before, where for a brief moment we really did
think he'd be alone in this. But he's not. He * never * has been.
Why? Because like those Westerns of old, it's not the fight that
matters so much as our connections with one another along the
way. Who is standing by our side. We may not go gentle into that
good night, yet we still must go, we are mortal after all, we
die and all things do come to an end even television shows - but
the reason we don't fade away is because of those connections
with others. Without Anne, Connor, Harmony, Lorne, Nina and the
viewers...there would be no one to remember and Angel would fade
away. Just like if it weren't for the Grateful Dead and Don Maclean
- Buddy Holly's words and his memory might have faded away.
I enjoyed the episode. And I will miss this series. But I think
this was a satisfying ending to it. Not perfect. But TV seldom
is.
Thanks for reading. SK
Replies:
[> Wondrous sentiments all, SK.. -- ZachsMind, 09:20:35
05/20/04 Thu
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
The poem makes me think of Connor. I hated that character and
found him to be like STNGs Wesley or how others view Dawn in Buffy.
Now I see a new refreshing perspective. He's a swan now. What
we saw from his birth to this season was a yolk-covered duckling
struggling to break free of crackling eggshells, then struggling
to walk upright and faltering.
In this last episode we see Connor face his father. Accept the
blessings and curses. We see his father rage against the dying
of the light. I find Connor to be Angel's greatest accomplishment,
and in that is his immortality.
I see Wesley in Shakespeare:
Depart again: here, here will I remain
With worms that are thy chamber-maids; O, here
Will I set up my everlasting rest,
And shake the yoke of inauspicious stars
From this world-wearied flesh. Eyes, look your last!
Arms, take your last embrace! and, lips, O you
The doors of breath, seal with a righteous kiss
A dateless bargain to engrossing death!
Being practically forced to read those words in high school, and
bitterly spitting them out again in college. Never have I appreciated
Romeo and Juliet until now, seeing it echoed in the starcrossed
fates of Wesley and Winnifred. Now I understand the sentiment
and weight of it. To die in your lover's arms. Is there any better
fate? Is there no worse a fate?
You see Wesley in Dylan. I see Connor. Other than that I'm right
there with you in your sentiments. =)
[> [> What does "STNGs Wesley" mean? Just Curious.
-- Unitas, 09:55:45 05/20/04 Thu
[> [> [> The character "Wesley Crusher"
in "Star Trek: the Next Generation" -- KdS, 10:26:39
05/20/04 Thu
Not a popular boy.
[> [> [> [> Must I spearhead the Wesley Crusher
Anti-Defamation League as well? ;-) -- Rob (yes, I like him,
okay, now can we move on?!? ;-) ), 13:27:05 05/20/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Must I spearhead the Wesley
Crusher Anti-Defamation League as well? ;-) -- Masq, 15:46:48
05/20/04 Thu
Wesley was an awesome character! I loved him and how his arc ended
up in the end.
So I'll join your League, Rob!
Masq, who admittedly tends to identify with teenaged boy characters
other people seem to hate, and even the ones people like.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Must I spearhead the
Wesley Crusher Anti-Defamation League as well? ;-) -- LittleBit,
16:58:19 05/20/04 Thu
I liked him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Must I spearhead the
Wesley Crusher Anti-Defamation League as well? ;-) -- Rob,
22:01:37 05/20/04 Thu
Wesley was an awesome character! I loved him and how his arc
ended up in the end.
Completely agree...Love him. Loved his entire journey on the series,
and especially loved that later episode where he was stuck alone
with Picard in that cave. I always enjoyed watching their relationship
develop, even if it wasn't usually in the forefront. I liked that
Wesley could be whiny at times, could be immature. He was this
super-genius, but he was also a very typical young teenage boy,
and although he was older than I was when I was watching the show,
I still really identified with him. He was the only cast member
anywhere near my age, and here he was flying on a spaceship, sitting
on the main bridge, taking a real part in the running of the ship...I
thought he was awesome. Still do.
One thing I always really liked on Next Generation is that
even though there were no season-long story arcs, there were series-long
character arcs, and there was excellent continuity between the
episodes even if there was a whole season separating them. For
example, if you were to isolate all the Wesley episodes, you'd
have a story, with all the foreshadowing and character development
you'd expect from a seasonal arc. Such as the Traveller showing
up early on in the show, again when Wesley helped him save Beverly
in Remember Me, and then of course when he finally decides
to leave Starfleet Academy and join him.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Can I join too? -- Lunasea,
17:50:04 05/20/04 Thu
even if Will Wheaton is a complete nut. If you have any doubt
check out Wil Wheaton dot
net. Just that he recommends "Lost in Translation"
leads me to question his sanity. Maybe OnM can do a review and
find it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Can I join too?
-- Do I have to spearhead the LiT Anti-Defamation League? ;),
01:41:54 05/21/04 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Do I have to spearhead
the LiT Anti-Defamation League? ;) -- grifter, 01:43:28
05/21/04 Fri
Wrote my subject into the "name" box...that´s
what watching the Angel finale will do to a fan... ;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Please do
-- Lunasea, 19:29:22 05/21/04 Fri
That movie only makes sense if you know about Coppolla's husband's
affair with some blond Hollywood actress. I want to say Cameron
Diaz. That sounds right. Poor Sophie. Spike cheated on her and
she turned to the Hollywood biggies that she grew up with for
comfort. Yawn.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> For the
record, I like Wesley Crusher now...! -- ZachsMind, 21:14:46
05/21/04 Fri
Actually in the first season of STNG I thought Wesley was cool
until my friends started razzing about him the next morning after
the latest episode. I thought it was neat that a kid about my
age was on the bridge of the Enterprise. And then after awhile
I got to thinking, what the hell is a kid my age doing on the
bridge of the Enterprise? It made no sense! It was like Salvador
Dali writing Star Trek. So it was peer pressure. I admit it. I
learned to hate Wesley. I had a friend of mine who wrote a song
called "Shut Up Wesley" and he even recorded it. I think
I have a copy of it somewhere..
But in reruns I learned to like him again. It's not his fault
he's absurd. He's just written that way. And I've always thought
Wil Wheaton a phenomenal talent regardless of what I thought about
the character. I mean, you try to portray a character that the
teeming masses of fans learn to love to hate and you try to get
up in the morning. The fact Wheaton is actually nice to Star Trek
fans that just blows me away. He has every right to give us the
bird and tell us we suck and curse our pets every chance he gets,
but he's the kindest, nicest celebrity.
Or so I've heard. He never returns my phone calls. Probably cuz
all I do is breathe heavily. ...What were we talking about?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heheh,
and from what I can tell from reading his blog, you have a similar
sense of humor too. ;-) -- Rob, 21:39:45 05/21/04 Fri
[> [> [> Star Trek The Next Generation - Wesely Crusher
-- s'kat, 10:28:52 05/20/04 Thu
Which to be honest was how I saw Connor in the two episodes he
appeared, a lot like Wes Crusher - the perfect well-rounded tv
kid, no blemish, no anger, perfect in every way, with superpowers
to boot...in Seasons 3-4 he was dysfunctional and interesting
not like Wes Crusher at all. But, that's a subjective thing and
hardly worth blathering about here so I'll refrain: Connor and
Wes Crusher, however, have oddly mirrored fates.
Wesley Crusher journeys beyond human concerns towards the end.
Becoming something other. I have vague memories of the episode.
While Connor goes back to human concerns leaving the other behind
him.
[> [> [> [> Re: Star Trek The Next Generation -
Wesely Crusher -- Unitas, 14:28:48 05/20/04 Thu
Never really watched Star Trek so that's probably the reason I
didn't catch this, although I have heard of the character.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who misses the angrier, messed-up
Connor. The newer version is just a little too perfect. Still,
it was fun to have him back.
[> [> [> [> [> Memories-new or revised spoilers
5.22 -- Ann, 16:49:00 05/20/04 Thu
I did this post already but Voy ate it. Grrr.
"Glad to see I'm not the only one who misses the angrier,
messed-up Connor. The newer version is just a little too perfect.
Still, it was fun to have him back."
I agree in that I miss the messed up version too. But one can't
live like that for very long without going postal in a sporting
goods store. Connor did not have a fighting chance in any way
at the end of Home. The newer version is not perfect. He is just
a mature young man who has consolodated his past with his present.
He has seen the power of good and the consequences of bad choices.
This year at the Riley's has helped him do this. He understands
his past, the whys and the hows and is able now to move past the
horror. He is even mature enough to realize he is still dealing
with the consequences of remembering. Impressive growth I think.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Respectfully disagree...with
you on this one -- s'kat, 18:06:13 05/20/04 Thu
The newer version is not perfect. He is just a mature young
man who has consolodated his past with his present. He has seen
the power of good and the consequences of bad choices. This year
at the Riley's has helped him do this. He understands his past,
the whys and the hows and is able now to move past the horror.
He is even mature enough to realize he is still dealing with the
consequences of remembering. Impressive growth I think.
Sounds perfect to me. Can you cite one imperfection? Just one,
and no it can't be that he's not able to kill Hamilton for Angel.
I'll list his perfections:
1. Perfect relationship with new family, no mess-ups, no arguments.
They love him to pieces. They even banter nicely.
2. Super-powers, can hit Hamilton with a flying punch, although
can't beat him...which is a good thing. Hamilton can still kick
him across the room.
3. Brainy - going to Stanford no less, was validictorian of his
class.
4. Completely forgiving, doesn't hold a grudge at all, understands
everything
5. Comes to back up his biological vampire dad the moment he figures
out he's in trouble, insists on helping in fact
6. Is good looking
Gee..he's actually better than some of the Marty Sue characters
we whine about in fanfiction. Every parents fantasy child come
true. No wonder people loved him. What's not to love?
Okay dropping back a bit, why? Why did ME decide to make Connor
*this* perfect? Because...he had to be the photonegative of the
Connor we saw in Home, the exact opposite in every single solitary
way. And in effect the photonegative of Liam as well. So to make
Connor anything less than perfect wouldn't have worked, they had
to distinguish him as much as possible from the polar opposite
in Home. They had to make Connor the perfect fantasy son come
to life in order to make that scene with Angel and Hamilton work
- where Hamilton talks about how much a wast Angel was as a human
and a son. It also fits with the twin metaphors - Drogyn vs. Hamilton,
Conner (Home) vs. Conner (Not Fade AWAY. Origin). Sometimes reality
has to be pushed aside for the sake of visual metaphor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Respectfully
disagree...with you on this one -- Ann, 18:51:06 05/20/04
Thu
I admit it is a fantasy perhaps but there is nothing wrong with
striving to do well and achieve and this is ME's intension perhaps.
I admit I am still trying to find a fault. lol There is so much
angst that a little fantasy does them well. They were allowed
to spend their last day doing just that. Finding their fantasy.
Buffy got to give slayerness away, this time Angel gives away
fantasies. Angel deserves this I think and this is their gift
to him for kicking him in the head and heart so many times. It
may seem like the Brady Bunch (I think of it as that opposed to
MarySue ideal) but the goal is to fight the good fight then this
may be the reward. They may be questioning the idea of reward
beyond sanshu. I am not that familiar with the whole MarySue idea
but if he has truly come to terms with his past, it shouldn't
stress him to the point of anger, guilt or hate anymore. Truly
getting past the horror, I think, means that and that is what
ME is trying to show perhaps. I hope Connor is not rotting away
with guilt and hate inside and not showing it and expressing it.
To good to be true sometimes is.
I do like your twinning idea about these Connors. Everyone got
their twin this season.
Thanks.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Un-Sueing Connor
-- Masq, 18:58:20 05/20/04 Thu
Don't worry, if Connor appears in the Season 6 fic, we'll round
him up some flaws. I'm thinking he still has a tendency to grouchiness,
a bit of a temper. I'm thinking he teases people past the point
where it's nice sometimes. I'm thinking he's not a perfect A-student.
He has a little bit o' demon inside of him, kind of like being
sorta Klingon, it gives you a not-so-nice edge sometimes.
That's my boy!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A flaw for
Connor -- Lunasea, 20:27:19 05/21/04 Fri
He isn't ready to be Angel's son. All he can do at this point
is be grateful for what Angel did. He can't actually *be* his
son. He needs the false memories in order to cope. He comes back
because it's an apocalypse and that's who he is.
He hasn't truly come to terms with his past. Otherwise, he would
be in contact with Angel and Angel could be his dad again. They
are at a point where building a relationship may be possible.
Then again, what does Angel have to contribute to Connor's future
other than neat penmanship?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Respectfully
disagree...with you on this one -- Unitas, 19:28:59 05/20/04
Thu
In a radio interview last year, Tim Minear mentioned the possibility
of a Connor-Returns episode with Connor disenchanted with his
family and facinated by how cool Angel would seem to him. I kinda
wish they went more in this direction for 'Origin', not only because
it would downplay the new Connor's utter perfection but it would
give his decesion to protect his family at the end more dramatic
weight.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed
-- s'kat, 20:20:01 05/21/04 Fri
In a radio interview last year, Tim Minear mentioned the possibility
of a Connor-Returns episode with Connor disenchanted with his
family and facinated by how cool Angel would seem to him.
I remember that interview - Succubus Club, right? Yes! That's
what I wanted for Origin and explains why in a nutshell the episode
felt so flat and anti-climatic to me.
I wonder what would have happened if Minear had written Origin
instead of Goddard?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agreed
-- Lunasea, 20:29:41 05/21/04 Fri
I wonder what would have happened if Minear had written Origin
instead of Goddard?
Connor would have died (heh heh heh)
You want the Tim Reaper to get his hands on Connor? I don't think
Masq could take it. Let Fanboy handle it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But if Connor
was unhappy with his new life . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:46:43
05/22/04 Sat
.. . . then it detracts from all the trouble Angel went through
to give it to him. The whole point of the memory altering was
to make Connor have a good life as well as be happy and well adjusted.
Connor's life is seemingly perfect because Angel made a deal with
the devil to give it to him; Connor getting the opportunities
Angel could never have was a big part of the story. Why must the
most bleak of scenarios, where Connor is incapable of actually
finding a happy life, be the one to play out?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed,
Finn. -- Rob, 09:00:15 05/22/04 Sat
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But
if Connor was unhappy with his new life . . . -- lunasea,
09:29:59 05/22/04 Sat
Why must the most bleak of scenarios, where Connor is incapable
of actually finding a happy life, be the one to play out?
do you want an actual answer?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes
-- Finn Mac Cool, 09:53:51 05/22/04 Sat
The scenario Tim Minear proposed seems fairly bleak to me (even
with all the memory changes, Connor still couldn't be happy in
it). I am genuinely curious as to why some people would prefer
this version.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Yes -- lunasea, 10:33:32 05/22/04 Sat
I don't prefer it, but then again, I believe in happiness. I guess
I should preface this with this is just my opinion and I could
very well be completely full of shit.
I didn't like "Killer in Me." Way too fairy tale for
me. The only thing that would have made it worse is if RRK was
slated to write episode 13 of season 7. Luckily she wrote 12,
so she couldn't write 13. Maybe in the hands of some truly dark
like DeKnight or Goddard, the episode would have been better,
who knows.
Then again, what Joss wanted to put in its place if Amber Benson
had agreed to appear would have been even more fairy tale. Thing
is, it would have been earned and incredibly beautiful, not to
mention symbolic. I wasn't invested enough in Kennedy to give
her this much power.
In order for Connor to be happy this season, you have to believe
in happiness. There are two things that can stand in the way of
this. Either it is hard to believe that people can be happy and
well adjusted because of real life experience, or it is hard to
believe that people in the Buffyverse can be happy and well adjusted
because they tend not to show that. Some are attracted to the
Buffyverse because these two things intersect. For ME to show
that someone can be happy and well-adjusted (even though I believe
Fred is both) feels like a betrayal. This was one reason why people
didn't like new-improved Riley who was shown letting vamps feed
off of him because he was so screwed up and the next time we see
him he is pretty much together. Bit has some good insight into
this character and I would nominate her to write his character
essay.
That's essentially what happened with Connor. Last time we saw
him he was truly screwed up. ME even considered him irredeemable,
which is something some in the audience can't. Now we see him
and he is fine. It doesn't feel earned because they don't like
the mind wipe in the first place. They dismiss Angel's pain because
he mind raped his friends. He is now the bad guy, not the man
that lost his son.
Connor did some pretty bad things. This new life is a get-out-of-guilt
free card and people don't like that. Redemption is a hard rocky
road that goes on forever. Some people want him on that road.
I look at Connor as the exception that proves the rules. That
he is irredeemable shows why most aren't. That he is happy now
shows what it takes to fully be redeemed and shows why redemption
is an endless path.
I'm sure Connor's life isn't perfect. He goes through the same
stuff we all do. Vail didn't create all good memories "When
Connor was 5, he got lost in a department store. He wandered off
while his family was shopping. It scared the poor child nearly
half to death...He remembers screaming in the middle of the store."
I'm sure some girl broke his heart, both in his memories and in
real time. I'm sure he's gotten traffic tickets. That stuff is
just so minor compared to the angst we are used to.
SK calls Connor too perfect. If he was, he would be at Angel's
side as his son, not just for the apocalypse. Angel wouldn't have
to go to a coffee shop to find him. Instead, Connor is still trying
to deal with what happened. He now can do that. He is full of
potential. That potential includes the potential for happiness.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But
if Connor was unhappy with his new life . . . -- Unitas, 17:37:59
05/23/04 Sun
I'm not suggesting that Connor be miserable but just have normal
teenager issuses with his parents. He finds them square & boring,
and thinks this guy in the leater coat is wicked cool. I don't
find that bleak just more a tad mor interesting and more honest
emotionally.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Seemed
emotionally true to me -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:01:54 05/23/04
Sun
At least what we saw of it. Keep in mind, we saw very little of
Connor with his parents, and times he mentioned them mainly revolved
around them being in danger. What we did see seems very much like
the kind of conversations I have with my own parents, as well
as what, oh say, Buffy usually had with Joyce during normal times
(ie, no sex with older guys or vampire slaying involved). Why
does a teenager getting along with his parents seem less emotionally
true?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Seemed emotionally true to me -- Unitas, 22:02:22
05/23/04 Sun
I misspoke (or mistyped to be more accurate) when I said it would
be more emotionally true to have Connor have disagreements or
disappointments with his parents. However, I do think it would
be more emotionally interesting which was my point. On the other
hand, it's a great joke to have Connor by the antithesis of his
old persona. In the end, the new Connor is just too idealized
for my taste. I still liked the episode but thought an oportunity
was missed here.
[> Re: Do Not Go Gently Into That Good Night (My last review
- ATs 5.22 spoilers) -- StarryNightShade, 09:55:20 05/20/04
Thu
SK,
Thanks for your post....linking the series end to the Dylan Thomas
poem was beautiful.
SNS
[> Thanks for a great review! -- Pony, 10:36:30 05/20/04
Thu
[> Two small corrections to the above! -- s'kat, 11:03:01
05/20/04 Thu
"Billy" Holly should be "Buddy Holly"
and the Don MacLean song should be "American Pie" not
"The Day The Music Died"
This is what happens when you write something at midnight.
sk
[> [> Lovely, s'kat! I will miss your reviews so much!
(P.S. it's: Burt Bacharach....) -- Briar Rose, 14:26:58
05/20/04 Thu
[> [> Wonderful review as usual, s'kat! -- Jane,
23:17:48 05/20/04 Thu
I loved how well Dylan Thomas's beautiful poem tied into the show.
We can only hope that there will be another Jossverse series for
you to review down the road. I have enjoyed your insights; thanks
for sharing them with us.
[> Amazing insight as always s'kat -- Vegeta, 12:43:12
05/20/04 Thu
You definetly have a way of reading into the character's and their
motavations. Thanks for all your reviews... and like you I belive
that I will adjourn this post board now. I was never able to write
quite as well as most of you but I always enjoyed reading everyone's
posts. I just think it is time to let the chapter close... no
use beating a dead horse.
Goodbye.
Vegeta
Angel's play and games theory
(finale spoilers) -- Ames, 10:10:04 05/20/04 Thu
Earlier I made a comment about Angel refusing to play the senior
partners' game, and kicking over the board instead. It occurs
to me that this is not without purpose - in fact it fits quite
well with a controversial aspect of games theory which I read
about in an article in New Scientist a few years ago. It was about
why groups like the IRA and the Palestinians appear to defy the
conventional logic of games theory in their moves against the
opposition, i.e. engaging in destructive actions which appear
to benefit neither side in the long run. (Not that such groups
consciously follow games theory - it's more about explaining natural
tendencies).
What the article pointed out was that conventional games theory
doesn't consider sufficiently the long-term outcome of repeating
the same game many times over between the same opposing sides.
It boils down to the fact that groups which don't have the resources
to win against a much stronger opposition have only two choices:
a) accept defeat in return for whatever crumbs their stronger
foe will give them in return for peace
b) keep kicking over the board destructively, and make it clear
that everyone will go on losing forever unless the stronger side
accepts some measure of defeat and compromise
In other words, there is actually method in the madness of groups
like the IRA and the Palestinians from the viewpoint of games
theory. The apparently endless cycle of violence and destruction
is not without purpose - it may be that it does increase the chances
of a more desireable outcome for the weaker party in the long
run.
So from this perspective it could be said that Angel's action
is not without purpose in the long-term battle against evil, even
if he loses the individual battle and evil goes on. He's shown
that the forces of good are prepared to kick over the board and
sacrifice everyone in order to force evil to start over again
- at least this time around.
Replies:
[> Re: Angel's play and games theory (finale spoilers)
-- Cypres, 00:04:14 05/21/04 Fri
It's an interresting point of view,but don't you think it's pretty
stupid to go and die to prove you're right.You can't fight anymore
if you're dead.This final act of courage,IMO,is not courage,it's
bravado and misplaced pride.Let's die but with style.
Why not pouring gas on you and light a match?Or play kamikaze?What's
the difference?Did you gain something in showing your devotion
to the cause?Prove to your ennemies that you and others 'heroes'are
ready to die for what you believe is right?
Japaneses lost the WW2 and human torches didn't stop the Vietnam
war.The bad guys don't care about your little act of 'courage'.In
their mind,It's the act of a little bunch of fanatics,(a little
like the 'Save Angel campaign';making a little noise doesn't register
when big financial interrest are involved,except for a little
while on these people's mind.And it certainly doesn't balance
the scale.Thank god,nobody died B/C of the cancellation!It would
have been very pathetic!.)
People acting on the field with real possibilities of winning
or in the shadows won these 'wars'.
What Angel & co did is the final proof of his nihilistic(and Whedon)view
of the world and a childish way to show his angerand determination.Just
my opinion.
[> [> Re: Angel's play and games theory (finale spoilers)
-- Ames, 20:25:16 05/21/04 Fri
I think you missed the point. It's not about whether Angel's actions
accomplished anything for himself and the rest of the gang, but
rather about whether many such actions can make a difference in
the long run in the war between good and evil.
[> [> Re: Angel's play and games theory (finale spoilers)
-- Lunasea, 07:40:25 05/22/04 Sat
human torches didn't stop the Vietnam war
They didn't? Public opinion in the US stopped the Vietnam war
and things like the monks and nuns lighting themselves on fire
played an important part in that. It brought international attention
to the abuses that were going on.
Besides, it wasn't about stopping the war necessarily. I like
how Robin Williams summed up these acts, "I'm going to leave
you to deal with your own shit." Karma can be a bitch.
Stories where a group stands up against incredible odds does something
very important. It shows the world what it can be (think champion
speech at the end of "Deep Down"). Enough people start
to believe that they can do this and we can even overthrow the
Brittish Empire and forge a new nation. The goal isn't to just
show the bad guys that we will stand up to them. It is to show
others that we can stand up to the bad guys. People are weak,
but we can be strong. Sometimes we just need to be shown how strong
we are.
[> [> [> The question is whether Angel's sacrifice
was worth more than his value as a champion -- Charles
Phipps, 12:09:58 05/22/04 Sat
Angel in his five years of vampire, demon, and other unpleasant
entity slaying has actually accomplished fairly little. It's an
interesting contrast to Buffy, who has slain swaiths of greater
demons and beings like the Mayor, that Angel has always been a
minor player in the great chess game.
Vampires, Smile Time Demons, and even the occasional Mora demon
have proven Angel is really just a bit player. A pawn. He can't
even destroy one FRICKIN branch of a legal firm that operates
out of ONE CITY. In a battle across countless dimensions and against
billions of entities, he's insignificant.
If a man off the street kills the President of the United States
vs. fighting troops abroad, one suddenly calls into question which
has done more. The man will almost certainly die, the damage done
cannot be ignored.
Angel chose to be the assassin of a president rather than a footsoldier....even
knowing the consequences.
[> [> [> [> not a question I ask -- lunasea,
12:43:55 05/22/04 Sat
In a battle across countless dimensions and against billions
of entities, he's insignificant.
The "truth" is that we are all insignificant. Even Buffy.
I don't see Buffy taking down the Wolf, the Ram or the Hart. I
wouldn't compare what Buffy has faced with what Angel has faced.
How do the Master, the Mayor and Glory compare with say Jasmine?
Angel is a bit player in a grander play.
It isn't up to me to decide Angel's worth or how he best serves
good. It is up to me to decide how *I* serve what I believe in.
If Angel's story motivates the creature that does manage to overthrow
the Senior Partners, is Angel's sacrifice somehow validated? Does
it matter? Is life a balance sheet that can be tallied?
[> [> [> [> [> Angel chose no longer to be a
pawn, period -- Charles
Phipps, 13:46:19 05/22/04 Sat
Angel was sacrificed, traded, and moved on the great Chessboard.
As the Slayer Buffy was routinely there to prevent the VIOLENT
apocolypses of the First, Dark Willow, The She-Demons, The Master,
and Alcathla.
It's important to note though that Angel didn't actually defeat
any of the "evil" forces when he defeated Jasmine. Angel
defeated a Rogue member of the Powers that Be.
Rather like killing Colonel Kurtz during Vietnam, its not helping
you beat the Vietnamese.
[> [> [> Re: Angel's play and games theory (finale
spoilers) -- cypres, 15:58:39 05/22/04 Sat
I don't deny the utility of showing your opinion and trying to
influence things:meetings,shocking acts,lobbying,...So many ways
to show your desapprobation and show/explain to the world(thanks
medias!)why you want something to stop or begin.
But do you think that dying is the best solution?
Human torches,kamikazes,suicidal terrorists,... are fanatics in
the worst sense of the word:they believe they are right and in
a way,they are,we all have good reasons to believe our cause is
the right one.But you don't need to die to have results,you can
find other ways(see above)
What Angel and his friends did is not fanatism,of course,
but I do think that there is always better ways to
stop *evil* than going to your death without any chances of winning(and
don't tell me that they could,it's not what was implied in the
ep. I saw.
If you don't read JW 's interviews,if you don't fanwalk and with
no season 6,ATS stopped with 'not fade away'.It's canon!They are
running to their death just to show the big bad that they will
fight to death b/c they are the good guys.They can inflict some
damage,sure,but it is probably meaningless if they can't win.Nobody
can witness their act of courage,no press,no other warriors.No
repercussion in the world.Just brave,heroîc suicide...and
pride,too much pride.Why not looking for help?Buffy and all the
chosen ones*g*,the council,the White House,,hey,the Initiative
even,come on,it was a government program,they know!
[> [> [> [> The problem isn't that they are commiting
suicide -- Charles Phipps,
16:50:48 05/22/04 Sat
It's that death is the natural consequence of their actions. They
didn't die because they fought the army, they died because they
killed the Circle of the Black Thorn.
Effectively, they could run but essentially they can't hide. Wolfram
and Hart are retaliating and fighting is all they can do (the
amry would kill any number of innocents to get them)
They decided it was better to die and kill the Circle as a sacrifice
than leave them intact.
[> [> [> [> Re: Angel's play and games theory (finale
spoilers) bis -- cypres, 16:55:31 05/22/04 Sat
Well,the end of my message has disappeared,so...
I think that what we saw was a final act of desperation.We can't
win,no matter the sacrifices,no matter the good intentions,...and,may
be,a way to make the pain stop,hence the suicide.(If Cordy or
Fred had been there,they would have stopped this,common sense
and optimism are not the forte of these guys*g*)
The nihilism of Whedon and the writers is ,imo,a way to show their
bitterness to the viewers and,mostly,to the WB:we did what you
wanted and you sacrificed our show.We can't win,so bang,you're
punished,we killed everybody!Whedon himself said the final was
"brutal" on purpose because he didn't like how the WB
had cancelled the show.I'm not sure that the blow was really stong:they
don't care.
[> [> [> [> Re: Angel's play and games theory (finale
spoilers) -- lunasea, 17:01:05 05/22/04 Sat
But do you think that dying is the best solution?
Solution? What is that? That's the whole point. These things aren't
"solvable." Joss summed up season 6 with a question,
"If you buck the system and do your best to make it collapse,
what if it does?" Angel had it in his power to completely
dismantle Wolfram and Hart, LA Branch. There are some that speculate
that if he did that, his deal with the Senior Partners would have
been nullified and Connor would have lost his fake memories. I
see nothing in what Eve said in "Conviction" that would
support this. Instead she gave a reason for them to keep their
assets, "evil goes next door."
He does one better than dismantling the LA Branch. He destroys
the Circle of the Black Thorn. Big deal. Evil finds new cogs for
their machine. Angel knows this. He knows the evil without can't
be destroyed any more than he can destroy his vampiric nature
within. People are weak.
There is no solution to this problem. That is why game theory
has to be looked at differently in this case. There is no chance
of winning. Instead Angel has to find a reason to fight. I need
to do a post that traces the evolution of Angel's epiphanies.
In "Not Fade Away," Angel has moved away from the smallest
acts of kindness. Some may disagree with this move, but his new
reason to fight is that is his reason. The Wolf, the Ram and the
Hart exist to be fought. It is a perfect Zen moment when he faces
that wall of demons. Everyone is doing what they are meant to
do. Sword raised ready to slay the dragon, possibly from "The
Gift," Angel is every bit as much at peace as Buffy was jumping
off the platform in "The Gift."
Why not looking for help?
Because the fight isn't winable. Why did Buffy send Angel away
in "Chosen"? It was her fight and she wanted a second
line. When Angel does fade away if those demons kill him, the
apocalypse continues. That is Buffy's purpose. That is also why
Connor leaves. Their Zen moment isn't facing those demons at that
time. This was Angel's statement, to himself as much as the universe.
If you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, why play
by the rules of those damning you? Wolfram and Hart depend on
people acting as though they can't win. They rely on compromise.
You can call is suicide or pride. Doesn't really matter what it
is called. Angel's smile was every bit as real as Buffy's at the
end of "Chosen."
Current board
| More May 2004