May 2004 posts
Desperation: Looking
for a place to watch AtS Finale in NYC -- Dlgood,
16:24:44 05/18/04 Tue
As menioned earlier, I will be in Manhattan tomorrow night. Sadly,
my hotel does not carry the WB. Is anyone going to be available
to host a Finale Watching Gathering tomorrow night?
Please let me know. I do want to see it when it airs...
Replies:
[> What? WB11 is a local channel. You don't even need cable.
-- Sofdog, 18:39:59 05/18/04 Tue
[> [> Ah, yes, but in the city, there is digital cable,
and sometimes... -- Rob, 19:03:59 05/18/04 Tue
....local channels cost extra money that way, so people choose
not to get them. Grr aargh.
Rob
[> Re: Desperation: Looking for a place to watch AtS Finale
in NYC -- Dariel, 06:25:04 05/19/04 Wed
Wish I could help you out, but I live in Brooklyn and I'm not
sure I'll make it home by 9:00. (I'm taping, of course!)
[> [> Thursday: Lunch in NYC -- Dlgood,
07:38:48 05/19/04 Wed
Ah well. I'll just watch when I get back home to DC. Anom and
I are planning on catching lunch/brunch somewhere in MidTown Thursday
around 11:30 AM. Think up some ideas for locations that might
work.
Very much OT: Time for some
happy news.... -- angel's nibblet, 22:39:04 05/18/04 Tue
It's my 18th Birthday today!!!! (well, today in NZ, which is Wed
19th)
*pops party popper* *hands out cake*
Hurrah for me! And thus far, I must say, not a psychotic vampire
in sight. Which always makes for a better birthday, I think.
Now it's all up to Joss Whedon. I expect 5x22 to be the best birthday
present ever, possibly even better than the slayer powers he belately
gave me last year ;-)
Yes, that's all I wanted to say....*wanders off*
Replies:
[> Penblwydd Hapus, cariad! (Happy Birthday, sweetie!)
-- Marie, 00:05:55 05/19/04 Wed
It's 9:03 a.m. in North Wales, and I've no idea what time it is
now where you are, but if there's any of the day left, enjoy it
hugely!
Marie (with a big sigh for her long-gone teenage years...)
[> Many happy returns -- Tchaikovsky, 01:10:01 05/19/04
Wed
You make me feel old...
TCH
[> Happy Birthday -- Ann, 04:01:23 05/19/04 Wed
Have a great day! Hope there is still some b-day left when you
get this!
[> OK, everyone... -- Masq, 05:52:03 05/19/04 Wed
It's time to put this slayer through her paces. Cruciamentum
test!
Heh, heh. Happy birthday Nib!
[> nib!!! happy birthday!!! -- anom, 07:09:11 05/19/04
Wed
I'm glad something good is happening today >sniffle<....
Hope the ep is a great present for you!
I don't really think you'll have to worry about the Cruciamentum.
After all, the Watchers' Council is gone, Kralik is dust, & the
Slayers are in charge! For all that some people (not me!) seem
to think they're not much better than the Council, it's a good
bet they're not perpetuating/perpetrating the Cruciamentum anymore.
So enjoy & don't worry!
I don't know the law in N.Z.--does this make you a legal adult?
Are there things you can legally do now that you couldn't yesterday?
[> [> Happy b'day Nib! -- Jane, 16:35:23 05/19/04
Wed
Midnight and I wish you long rides in the country on your unicorn,
sweet oat cakes for Morningstar, and wine and chocolate for your
pleasure.
18!! I vaguely remember that birthday. Makes me feel positively
young to be your posting pal. (riding pun there,since we post
to the trot...sorry, My Bad.)
[> Squee!! Happy B'Day!! :-D -- Rob, 07:35:51 05/19/04
Wed
[> Happy Birthday, Nibbie!!!! -- fidhle, 07:55:27
05/19/04 Wed
Just don't let anyone take you to a decrepit house for a little
test, OK?
Hope you enjoy the ep and best wishes.
[> Happy birthday! -- KdS, 01:32:13 05/20/04 Thu
Hope 5:22 lived up to your hopes.
The ATPo site and Existential
Scoobies is up again! -- Masq, 05:57:27 05/19/04 Wed
Yeah Liquidram!
We have philosophy, we have archives and fic. Go check out my
Power Play
analysis.
I am going to put the normal chat link back up. But just in case
there are further problems, alternative chat for tonight is:
http://www.geocities.com/masqthephlsphr/chat.html
Replies:
[> So the site's ok but how's everybody else doing?
-- Pony, 06:49:32 05/19/04 Wed
I don't feel anywhere close to as keyed up as I did for the BtVS
finale last year. I'm confident that tonight's going to be great
but I'm just a bit rueful on the end of the era aspect of everything.
In any case, happy Angel day everybody! Good viewing to all.
[> [> Re: So the site's ok but how's everybody else doing?
-- Ann, 07:01:57 05/19/04 Wed
I am unspoiled and "hopefully" speculating and making
icons. Good use of my time!
I have stocked up on wine, chocolate and Kleenex. But the realization
last night in chat, that there is an upbeat nature to those that
are spoiled, is keeping my hope alive! Good watching everyone!
[> [> Re: So the site's ok but how's everybody else doing?
-- Masq, 08:44:15 05/19/04 Wed
I'm exactly the opposite. I was getting so detached from BtVS
by the end of season 7 that the last episode didn't have that
big of an effect on me. The show had a good 7-year run, and that
seemed like enough.
Angel, however, has been cut down in its prime. I was re-watching
some favorite eps over the weekend and it kills me to see such
a rich entertaining show go before the story is really over.
And I'm nervous for how Joss will end it.
[> [> [> Re: So the site's ok but how's everybody
else doing? -- Old One, 08:57:19 05/19/04 Wed
Well, there ya go...the advantage of being completely spoiled.
No anxiety.
You people who thrive on tension...I just don't get it.
;o)
[> [> [> [> No anxiety? (vague 5.22 spoilers within)
-- Masq, 09:09:30 05/19/04 Wed
As in, "It all ends well... trust me?"
There is nothing in the world like being unspoiled. I learned
this lesson years ago. Seeing the surprises for the first time
on screen in color with the actors and the sets and the music,
instead of getting the surprises in text written by some fan and
through their point of view.
Having it jab you in the stomach, whether it is happy tingles
or stabbing angst.
That said, there are certain things that, once I was inadvertently
spoiled against my will, I had to find out the rest because I
couldn't live with being slightly spoiled. I had too much emotionally
invested. I just hope you're right about those things, Dub, 'cause
I don't need another case of catatonic schitzophrenia like I had
after last year's finale. I thought I was spoiled for 4.22, and
I wasn't, I really didn't know after all, and what aired hit my
expectations like a ton of bricks.
; )
[> [> [> [> It is like waiting for Christmas morning
-- Ann, 09:22:25 05/19/04 Wed
I learned as a child, that checking your parent's closet for your
gifts wrecks Christmas morning. Never looked after that.
Now in this case, we won't be having any more Christmas mornings,
or Wed evenings, sob, so I want to let this last as long as possible.
[> [> [> [> [> GrrrArrgh, I have to work tonight
:( -- Jane, 16:30:03 05/19/04 Wed
So I have my tape all charged up and ready to record. I'm unspoiled,
so will have to stay away from chat tonight. I'm going to try
to resist the urge to check it out on my coffee break tonight..but
I'll miss the interaction, so maybe I'll keep one hand over my
eyes and peek in.
There was a nice blurb in todays Vancouver Sun TV highlights about
the end of Angel. I weep, I reach for kleenex. BTW, Space Channel
is running an Angel marathon on Monday May 25th, ending with the
final episode.
Stay strong everyone. Repeat after me, I trust in Joss..
[> [> Wearing all black today and tomorrow -- Tyreseus,
17:49:57 05/19/04 Wed
And wishing I didn't live in Vegas when pulling dumb stuff like
this. Maybe I should have settled for a black armband.
not cool -- buffyguy,
18:01:46 05/19/04 Wed
This finale was absolutely remarkable in every way. But why, oh
why, would they leave us hanging like that? i need to know if
they survive. its just torture that they end it like that. I dont
think i know of any show that ended during a ocnflict and didnt
follow up on whether it was resolved or not. Once again, this
is torture and i demand another season or movie.
Replies:
[> TOTAL FINALE SPOILERS ABOVE -- Helpful PSA, 18:03:48
05/19/04 Wed
[> most unsatisfactory *SPOILERS* -- Sofdog, 18:05:18
05/19/04 Wed
How in the world could they leave it like THAT? I screamed at
my tv. It felt like things were just getting warmed up. And they
killed Wesley. Wesley! I can't rate this as being as good as the
previous finales.
Not hardly.
[> I loved it -- Doug, 18:21:38 05/19/04 Wed
2 main reasons:
1) After setting up how powerful the opposition is it's hard to
believe that all the characters left standing at the end would
survive the assorted monstrosities they faced at the end. But
this way each individual fan can tell themselves how it ended,
what happened there. Each one of us can think about our favourites
(except the Wesley fans, we're screwed) and what we want to have
happened to them. By the numbers they should all be dead; but
we can convince ourselves that the most obvious outcome did not
happen, that this character or that character dodged the bullet
yet again, or that they all lived happily ever after.
2) Even with a 3-hour finale and the budget of an action movie
could they really do justice to our own imaginations? I mean,
there was a frelling Dragon fying around, and those looked like
giants amongst the demon horde. Could they really do all that?
[> [> One more thing -- Doug, 18:54:39 05/19/04
Wed
Something I saw mentioned on the TWoP forums, and I realized was
also good:
The battle never ends. The fight goes on.
So when the credits roll the last thing we see is them readying
another attack , the last we see is them still fighting.
[> [> [> Re: One more thing -- Pathfinder, 19:14:53
05/19/04 Wed
The battle never ends. The fight goes on.
_____
Exactly. I thought it was a brilliant way to end it.
Just a few favorite moments (yes, spoilers all about. Don't look
if you haven't seen! Well, you know what I mean...):
Angel to Sebassis: "If the next words out of your mouth are
"kill Spike," we just might have to kiss."
Angel and Connor's bonding over coffee. I really did like kinda-normal-boy-Connor.
Recalling his life as angry-at-the-world-Connor: "It's all
kinda like a dream...a violent, at times inappropriately erotic,
dream."
Poetry-Slammin' Spike! The Bloody Awful Poet gets his props at
last! And one last shout out to Cecily!
Wesley lying broken and bloody on the floor with Illyria/Fred
crying over him. I knew it was coming, but seeing the death stare
from Wes still just broke my black little Wesley-centric heart.
[> [> [> Re: One more thing -- RichardX1,
19:38:40 05/19/04 Wed
Yeah, it's kind of like how the final "Animorphs" book
ended, in that way.
[> [> [> [> Re: One more thing -- buffyguy,
20:17:15 05/19/04 Wed
okay...i completely understand the "fighting till the end"
thing. But they could have totally given us a solid ending like
buffy's, not leave it in the middle of a battle, because thats
just wrong. Seeing as how DB doesnt wanna do a mini movie thing
and that another season is an impossibility, and that a spike
centric spinoff movie would totally bomb (not that hes not good,
on the contrary, its just that it wouldnt work; 1.hes not a slayer,
2.he may be a champion like angel but unlike angel he seems to
showw no remorse for his vampiric escapades and doesnt seem to
want to atone like angel does, so a show about him would be dumb.)
I need closure.
[> [> [> [> [> Careful what you ask for.....
-- meritaten, 23:49:23 05/19/04 Wed
The writers of Deep Space Nine gave us closure in the finale.
I found that disappointing and somewhat disconcerting. The characters
that I had grown to love over seven years just went on to new
lives all over the galaxy.
Maybe this is just a matter of personal preference, but I like
the idea that our friends on Angel stay with their mission until
the end ... whenever that might be. With this open ending, the
fight continues. To me, that is far more satisfying.
So they're planning movies.
(spoilery for finale) -- mrsubjunctive, 18:29:03 05/19/04
Wed
This is a good thing, right? They don't let us see the end because
they want the option to bring everybody (well, almost everybody)
back, right?
I still liked it.
Replies:
[> It is my understanding that... -- OnM, 19:22:39
05/19/04 Wed
.... Joss did not plan to significantly depart from the way he
had originally intended the season to end. Since ME was also originally
planning on another season if it was offered them...
.... you do the math.
Have to say, I can see only one possible way out of the ending
as depicted, and what I think is clever is that such a possibility
was cleanly set up last year in the other part of the 'verse,
alluded to earlier in this season, and that allusion was reinforced
just 2 eps back in that odd 'humor before the storm' show.
Hummmm...
[> [> Re: I'm with you, OnM -- Brian, 19:32:32
05/19/04 Wed
*Spoilers for Finale* Charge
of the Light Brigade -- Rochefort, 18:41:59 05/19/04 Wed
O.k., first off, I loved this episode. I loved this entire season.
It was a work of art. I figured early on in the season, for whatever
Joss says, he had given up on having the show continue. The episodes
this season were TOO risque, they were TOO anti-corporate and
anti-network. If Angel was cancelled because it didn't have sponsers,
there's a reason it didn't have sponsers. This season had cajones.
That being said, this episode was a perfect end to THIS SEASON.
But I feel really sad about this episode as an end to Angel's
arch of redemption. Greenwalt says in the first DVD that Angel
is like an alcoholic in recovery. Well this was not recovery or
redemption and there was VERY little hope to be found. It's like
Tennyson's Charge of the Light Brigade which is this totally death
wish poem that masks as heroic. I mean our Jossy boy was feeling
pretty damn hopeless and bitter when he penned this. Generally,
I like that in my art. But today I was cherishing a little candle
light of hope in my soul for the world. I mean the Bush administration
is falling in the poles, gays can get married, my dissertation
might get done some day..... and this episode was not about the
fanning.
2. Lindsey? What the hell was that about? Since when does Angel
get to decide that Lindsey can't be redeamed? That he's not part
of the solution. Lindsey was DIGGING having a team and he was
still young and figuring things out. And he TRUSTED Angel. And
Angel betrayed him. For WHAT? I know you'll all defend Angel and
defend the episode as BRIMMING with hope, but I don't see it.
Liked it anyway.
Rochefort
Replies:
[> As to your #2-- are you sure it was Angel that made that
decision? -- OnM, 19:12:29 05/19/04 Wed
[> [> Yes cause of what he said to Eve-y. -- Rochefort,
20:24:59 05/19/04 Wed
[> Re: 2. *Spoilers for Finale* -- MBG, 19:14:06
05/19/04 Wed
Angel did not kill Lindsey, Lorne did. It does seem like he did
it on Angel's orders, but that is not a hundred percent clear.
Remember Lorne's last words to Lindsey "I've heard you sing".
Maybe Lorne knew something; maybe he killed Lindsey for his own
reasons. O.k. maybe this is a stretch, but I love ambiguity.
[> [> Hmmm... -- meritaten, 00:32:22 05/20/04
Thu
Angel gave the order, but I think you have something there. I
don't think Lorne would have done it if he hadn't heard Lindsey
sing.
[> [> [> Re: Hmmm... -- Wizard, 01:41:49 05/20/04
Thu
I don't know about that. Lorne is pretty clear of purpose. He
seemed too self-loathing to have gotten something from a song.
[> Re: *Spoilers for Finale* Charge of the Light Brigade
-- ZachsMind, 19:45:40 05/19/04 Wed
Angel didn't betray Lindsey. Lindsey was one of the big evil players.
Angel wanted to take as many of them out as possible. So he used
Lindsey to take out some of the Circle Thorn guys, and then Lorne
took out Lindsey. MAybe Lorne knew he was gonna take out Lindsey
back when Lindsey sang for "The Host" at his kareoke
bar in season two.
Come to think of it, if Lorne had seen glimpses of the future
which is now all past, it helps explain why he's been so depressed
since Halloween. You would be too.
[> Re: *Spoilers for Finale* Disagree... -- Rob, 20:25:55
05/19/04 Wed
I didn't find the ending bleak but uplifting. Had they ended the
show on Angel and Co.'s bloody corpses (or okay, for him and Spike,
dusted bodies), that would have been depressing. But the gang,
probablility of survival or not, went out fighting the good fight.
Angel's "I want to take the dragon" line was not the
line of someone who was defeated. It was a confident proclamation
of someone willing to charge into battle, no matter the odds,
because in the on-going battle between good and evil, every small
act of retaliation against evil helps the universe. Angelus was
born in an alley, as a monster, and now the same being, Angel,
will most likely die in an alley, but instead as a Champion for
Good. I thought it was a perfect ending. I had some dark unspoiled
suspicions that Joss would kill everybody at the end. What I hadn't
considered was that he could manage to do that and still leave
a life-affirming message, and darn it, he succeeded!
And continuity buffs will note that we were already made aware
of how the show would end last season, in Spin the Bottle.
As that episode foretold, the only one left standing was Lorne.
Rob
[> [> A battle that never ends.... Rob vs. Rochefort
-- Rochefort, 20:33:33 05/19/04 Wed
Thanks for pom-pomming my dark thoughts one more time. :) I still
think there were definite frustrated bitter thoughts here, but
I agree that the Charge of the Light Brigade charge was a little
heavy. There were moments of more hope than Tennyson has. But...
clearly the Anne/Gunn conversation was about hopelessness. They
agreed none of it mattered. Joss likes classic existentialism...
being human in the FACE of chaos and hopelessness. But he doesn't
deny the chaos and the hopelessness.
Rochefort
[> Re: *Spoilers for Finale* Charge of the Light Brigade
-- Traveler, 21:53:34 05/19/04 Wed
I'm equally sure that all of them manage to survive somehow. Remember,
this was originally penned when they still thought there would
be a season six. I have no idea HOW Angel and friends would survive,
but there'd be a way. All the same, I still want to cry. I can't
believe Wes is dead. I was rivoted to the relationship between
him and Ilyria. The comment she made to Gunn about finding his
appearance pleasing, on the other hand, seemed to come out of
left field. I'm guessing they were planning to set up some kind
of romantic relationship between them for season six. But all
the same, I'm still holding out for a Spike, the series. *crosses
fingers and hopes fervently*
[> About #2... -- Wizard, 22:16:01 05/19/04 Wed
Some people, in other threads, mention Spin the Bottle. It has
been said that we know that everybody dies because Lorne indicates
that Very Bad Things happen. They may have a point, however, it
might be that Lorne was talking about his execution of Lindsay.
It was done on Angel's orders. There is no textual evidence. Subtextually,
though... yeah, there was what Angel said to Eve, but I think
that when he was talking about the ambiguities, he was expressing
self-loathing for what he was about to do.
Which begs the question: was Angel right to do it? Lindsay has
spent much of the series on the moral yo-yo. Who was to say that
he wouldn't eventually pick the good and stay there? If Lindsay
survived, one way or the other, he probably was going to rebuild
Wolfram and Hart. Angel having Lindsay killed is one way to prevent
that particular face of evil from surfacing. But there are W&H offices
the world over, so in actuality there are plenty of loyal flunkies
to rebuild.
Bring on the movie!
[> [> Re: About #2... -- kuinileti, 22:46:59 05/19/04
Wed
But, it's just that yo-yo'ing which meant that Lindsay couldn't
be trusted. He had had soooo many choices to pull out. He approached
Angel for help, saved the seer kids, and STILL couldn't get his
act together. He got his hand back. He left the firm. He sang
for Lorne multiple times. He evaded being killed by Darla/Drusilla,
by The Beast, and by the Senior Partners themselves, but he just
never did the math.
Ben was a good guy who yo-yo'ed and, ultimately, always sided
with the biggest show in town. He was a beautiful boy with a monster
inside of him. Giles had to kill him.
Same with Lindsay.
[> [> [> I understand, but... -- Wizard, 01:36:46
05/20/04 Thu
correct me if I'm wrong, but we're pretty much taking it for granted
that Lindsay would have gone back to evil. He may have- okay,
given his track record, it's pretty damn likely- but is it moral
to kill someone on the basis of what they might do? I believe
that the answer is no. If Lorne got something definite from a
reading of Lindsay, I could buy it. Hell, if Angel got something
from his one-shot vision, no matter how minor, I would accept
it, but there is no evidence that either of those things occurred.
I could even have accepted it if he was killed to pay him back
for the things that he did do, but he wasn't. He was killed because
of what he might yet do, and I can't believe that it is right,
or what a Champion does.
[> [> [> [> So, Ben...? -- kuinileti, 06:14:25
05/20/04 Thu
I'm just curious how your line of thinking relates to Giles killing
Ben/Glory. It was made pretty clear that it was Ben who was killed.
Ben had already promised Buffy that he would leave her and her
loved ones alone. He had already been beaten to a pulp and it's
unclear whether he would have even been able to, say, WALK again...
Ben was not the bad guy, but he had shown that he could not always
resist making the bad decision in service of his own self interest.
I see them as very similar types of characters, and I see their
deaths as being very parallel. Are you saying that the same line
of thinking applies to Ben, too?
[> [> [> [> [> Minor distinctions: -- mrsubjunctive,
08:13:09 05/20/04 Thu
Ben wasn't, himself, evil. He happened to share a body with someone
who was. Ben's promises about leaving people alone or not have
no bearing on what he, or at least his body, is likely to do,
'cause he's not in control of what it does all the time.
Lindsey, on the other hand, is in control of what he does, and
(as numerous people have noted) seems motivated mainly by a desire
not to be powerless. I agree that it's problematic, killing Lindsey.
Buffy would never have done this.
I don't believe, personally, that Lorne was acting on his own.
His don't-look-for-me speech to Angel suggests that this was not
something he wanted to do. He didn't react in a horrified manner
when he heard Lindsey sing the first time, which he's generally
done before for other people. I don't think he knew anything,
I think he was trusting Angel that it was necessary.
The best I can do as far as resolving all this is to say that
Linsdey, like Drogyn, was someone Angel felt he had to kill, and
it wasn't really rationalized on-screen but maybe it was somewhere
else. It's at least more defensible than Drogyn: Lindsey had a
history, and identifiably amoral motivations for his actions going
back to Season 1. But no, in the end, I'm not sure Lindsey needed
to die. And it's kind of a problem.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly -- Wizard,
14:07:52 05/20/04 Thu
Buffy would never have ordered Lindsey's death, for the same reasons
that she let Ben live, even though she knew that Glory would be
back. She's a hero. Giles, on the other hand, is not. He said
so himself, just before he killed Ben.
In some ways, Ben's death is both more and less justified than
Lindsey's. More, because everybody knew that Glory would come
back, and that Ben couldn't stop it. I think we can all agree
that Glory, petty and venal though she was, was far worse than
Lindsey could ever hope to be. Ben's death is less justified,
because he died because of what someone else would do with his
body, not because of the choices he made(it may even be argued
that he didn't entirely have control over his choice to give Dawn
up- I mean, if his goodness was infecting Glory, isn't it likely
that her evil was infecting him?).
In both cases, I was bothered both by the deaths and by the killers.
Giles had proven himself capable of doing whatever he felt needed
to be done. He never called himself a hero, even though I always
saw him as one. Angel, though... his whole thing is that he is
a Champion. He buys (bought?) into that. Remember the big speech
he gave to Connor in Deep Down? Taking down the Circle required
him to murder another Champion, and he chose to kill another person.
That's not the actions I would expect of somebody who gave that
speech.
[> [> [> [> Re: I understand, but... -- meritaten,
13:38:51 05/20/04 Thu
When Angel and Lindsey were talking, there was an agreement that
Angel would allow Lindsey to take over whatever emerged as the
new W&H. I think we are to take that as the evidence that
Lindsey planned to return to evil.
I'm not saying that I am entirely comfortable with the betrayal
and murder of Lindsey. However, I do think that Lindsey has essentially
proven that true change was not on his to-do list. As has been
said elsewhere, his pleasure in being part of the team was that
he believed he had achieved a measure of power through the alliance.
It had nothing to do with "doing-the-right-thing".
[> [> Re: Random thoughts about Lindsey (Spoilers Finale)
-- Antigone, 23:31:40 05/19/04 Wed
Regarding Lindsey, it's interesting, I keep going back and forth...
As I was watching the episode the cold-blooded kill by Lorne shocked
me... I literally gasped. Because, well, "good guys simply
don't do that." And I've been re-thinking this since then
(kinda have to since this episode drained me so that I probably
won't be able to sleep anyway! Loved it absolutely BTW). Now I'm
getting random images: Giles killing Ben "for the greater
good." And now I'm thinking of Lindsey. What do we know of
him exactly? he can be good when he choses to and can have good
instincts... but he seems over-run by passions and an irresistible
attraction to power as a way to get revenge over his childhood,
to be justified, to find a meaning in his life. And almost suddenly
I had this vision of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. I'm not Star
Wars expert mind you and I did not like the prequels so much but
bare with me. So, Anakin is a "good young man" with
a crappy childhood. A bit impulsive, run by passions. Someone
who had a taste of power. Someone with a huge ego. Someone easily
corruptible. Weak. So back to Lindsey. What if Lindsey 'was' Anakin?
I.e the next Darth Vader. What if Angel let him take over W&H...
at the risk of creating a monster. I think Angel knew that at
some point Lindsey would make the "wrong choice;" Chose
Ego, passion, Anger, Power, over his human(e) side, his kinder
instincts. And, in my crazy insomniac Post-Angel Finale brain,
another image popped up again: Hitler. How many sci-fi novels
have we read or Twilight Zone episodes have we seen that asked
the almost absurd question: if you had the opportunity to kill
Hitler (or Pol Pot or Staline) as a child, i.e. an innocent child
with still the potential to "do good" to make the "right
choices" despite a crappy childhood... would you? Not an
easy answer. Sure in theory we "intellectuals" (also
known as "smart asses"!) answer may be: what if I had
the chance to take him out of his environment and rehabilitate
him... Nothing is set in stone; people can change;... blah, blah,
blah.... Others say you can't blame the child for what the future
adult will do.... It's all theory of course... But I think Angel
had to make that choice. Maybe Lindsey would have been the next
Martin Luther King... Or--more likely--the next "Monster
" on the block. So Angel and Lorne made a choice (like Giles
with Ben). It's not a hero's choice. It's probably not even a
human choice. Maybe that's why a demon had to actually perform
the act? Another possible theory is that Lorne DID see something
truly Evil in Lindsey's future, something even Lindsey may not
suspect. I still think Lindsey's speech about "teams"
etc. was truthful. He even offered to sing. He REALLY thought
(at least for now, until the next opportunity came along) that
he was one of the "good guys." But Lorne (and presumably
Angel) KNEW the truth. That no matter what Lindsey's best intentions
may be or what his capaciy for remorse or love may be he would
turn and become something they could not afford to let loose.
Without Angel's influence, Lindsey would turn back to his egomaniac-revengeful-power-hungry
self. The one who will always make the self-serving choice, let
his ego get in the way of his ethics. He was always the "harsh
nemesis;" Magneto to Xavier. His last words were actually
quite enlighting to me: that Angel should have been the one killing
him. So in his deepest unconscious Lindsey knew there would be
a Big Fight between Angel and he, Good and Evil. Angel knew he
may not be there to fight him so he made this difficult choice.
We may not like it. But it's the choice Joss presents to us. And
maybe he's winking at us saying: "so now "smart asses"
could you REALLY have killed Hitler? Not as easy as it looks,
is it?" I don't know, I like that theory! :-)
Not that any of us would kill a 'presumed innocent' in real life,
of course, because well, killing is wrong. Vigilante actions do
not fit within our civilized, democratic values. That's what makes
us better than the average caveman ;-)... But in the context of
the Buffy verse and Joss' philosophical/sci fi influences, Lorne's
act made absolute sense to me. Even in an absurd world you can
make a few decisions--however harsh--that can affect things for
the better. Angel and Lorne made theirs. And I anticipate Lorne
to become darker and more depressed than what we saw in this episode.
He in effect "sacrified himself" too. Who knows if he's
ever sing again? :-(
Another thought: When reading some of the comments about Angel's
'death' not meaning anything and being very anti-climatic, almost
like the "hero giving up" (the position being, as I
understand it, that Angel, in effect, 'lost' because he cannot
help anyone dead).. so anyway ;-) When reading these interesting
comments, I had another flash (I need to sleep!): a few weeks
back on NPR they were broadcasting all the speeches of Nelson
Mandela over the decades. To me one of the last true "Heroes"
(but that's another story!) A speech that particularly touched
me and brought me to tears was the fsamous one he gave at the
end of his trial. He faced the death penalty. And he basically
said he was ready to die. When hearing him you did not get the
feeling he was just "saying that." He truly was ready
to die for his cause and he wanted his supporters to know that
he was not angry. I wish I remembered his exact words but the
gist of it was that he KNEW his sacrifice was NOT a useless death.
Evil would not 'win" with his death. He knew others would
come, take example and make the right (and difficult) choice to
fight the good fight. At the end of the day he and his companions
were sentenced to life in prison (at everyone's surprised). So
anyway, what I mean is that I do not think that a hero's death
is necessarily in vain. Sure Angel dead cannot help much... But
somehow (and I'm not sure I'm able to express this right at this
late hour) it's OK. MLK, Malcom X, JFK, Gandhi, Golda Meir...
So many 'heroes' who died, but not in vain because they inspired
people. They chose the dangerous fight and knew they could die
at any time. They could have stayed home (or Angel could have
chosen to stay safely in his plush W&H penthouse saving the occasional
girl in an alley). No. They took the fight "out there"
where it was the riskiest. They spoke out when the greatest odds
and greatest powers were against them. They were BOLD. And they
(presumably) died. But did they 'lose'? Somehow I think the world
is a much better place through their example and their deaths.
Nelson Mandela (thank God) did not die. But he was ready to. And
he still made one of the most powerful and most evil governments
on the planet tumble and crash. With words of peace and reconciliation,
not of hate and revenge. With a will to die. It took him 27 years.
If he had been executed that day, I still think the Apartheid
would have failed. So yes, maybe racism will always exist (like
W&H) but you can take it down a noch once in a while and it
sure feels right! That people die and compromise in that fight
is almost inevitable. The Great Men and Women in history seem
to have made similar choices, for the better.
Anyway, this is all very rambly. I'm still stunned by the truly
beautiful 'ending' Joss & Co have given us. As a fan of Camus
myself I could not have dreamed a better, richer conclusion to
celebrate human choices, love, friendship, hope, small acts of
kidness, etc., etc. over the absurdity of the world and the crushing
machine of Evil. I'll probably be stunned and hutterly confused
for the next days or weeks and I look forward to reading everyone's
insightful analyses here to help me through it.
[> [> Lindsey and Harmony -- meritaten, 00:51:00
05/20/04 Thu
I think Harmony is important in understanding the fate of Lindsey.
I think the message is that you can't hop back and forth between
evil and good. We have seen all of our characters make bad choices,
but that is different from embracing evil. (Yes, Angelus enjoyed
evil, but there has always been a distiction between Angel and
Angelus.) Harmony and Lindsey both have had moments where they
have fought on the side of good. However, they have always gone
back to evil without much thought. Angel KNEW Harmony would betray
him. He counted on it, made his plan around it. So, why did he
give Harmony a recomendation and not death? Partly for the humor,
but also because she wasn't much of a threat when evil. Lindsey,
however was a threat. He has sought memebership in the very group
that Angel was detroying. Perhaps Angel knew that Lindsey would
try to organize a replacement for the circle, just as he knew
Harmoany would sell him out to Hamilton. Lindsey had accepted
Angel's "offer" to let him run the version of WRH that
would undoubtedly emerge after this fight. Lindsey had no intention
of being good. Just as Harmony had "joined" Angel Investigations
when she first came to LA, then turned around and sold them out
to the bad guys, Lindsey would do the same. Lindsey's alliance
with Angel was for that fight only - his "loyalty" was
as meaningless as Harmony's.
Lincoln Assasination/ / Spoilers
-- Hauptman, 19:40:39 05/19/04 Wed
Angel as John Wilkes Booth
Any history buffs out there that got that Lincoln Conspiracy vibe
with the multiple assasinations designed to bring down a government?
An evil government, but that is reletive, isn't it? Booth certainly
considered the north evil and Lincoln the devil. This is what
the Booth plot was supposed to be. It popped when conner limped
away.
I dunno what it means. I just thought it interesting. Especially
since the political figure took it in the head. Who else expected
her to rise up in her true form and eat Gunn?
Someone please tell my why
my disappointment is misguided... (Finale Spoilers) -- Evan,
20:19:44 05/19/04 Wed
I'm not usually a consequentialist. If you do something wrong,
and it by chance (or otherwise) turns out alright in the end,
you've still done something wrong. That's probably something like
what I would be saying about Angel killing Drogyn if the "Fang
Gang" had been successful tonight. But... they (probably)
weren't. Angel killed Drogyn, and his plan still FAILED. He pissed
the Wolf, Ram and Hart off so bad that they sent a huge army of
hundreds, perhaps thousands, perhaps more, demons to kill off
the FOUR remaining characters in the streets of L.A. They all
probably die, and who knows how many civilians get killed in this
battle too.
And what does this represent? "The fight never ends... the
struggle between good and evil is never over..." blah blah
blah. I LEARNED that already. In Season 2. Remember? Holland Manners'
speech, which they mentioned so many times this season? I thought
they were gonna somehow add on to that, or prove it wrong... but
no. They just made the same point again, in a slightly more epic
way.
Is Angel crazy??? How could he underestimate the SPs so much?
Did he think he would destroy the circle of the black thorn and
the SPs would be totally thrown (or, in Angel's words, "miserable")
by the death of a few demons?
Wolf: Grrrrrrrr.... they killed the Fell Brethren!
Ram: Baaaaah.... they killed Archduke Sebassis!
Hart: (Whatever sound a deer makes)... they killed that devil
guy!
BOOOM! All their heads explode and humanity is freed from its
corruption!!
Yeah, no. That was never gonna happen. That IS never gonna happen.
THIS WAS ANGEL'S EPIPHANY. Signing away his right to Shanshu didn't
come as a surprise to me. He clued in years ago that redemption
was impossible. He's a mass murderer, and no matter how many people
he helps, that can never change. More importantly, he realized
that being rewarded for his good deeds was unnecessary. He wasn't
working for a reward anymore, he was working because helping others
is good in and of itself. The only way to make any progress against
the evils of the world is to live for the good. Humans will always
have the capacity for corruption ... but they will also always
have the capacity to REJECT that corruption. That's what free
will is all about. That's why they didn't see Jasmine as a bringer
of world peace, like she did. Angel, being a hero, helping the
helpless, gives people hope and shows them that there is good
in the world, and it is worth living for. That's the only way
to fight this apocalypse, and that's what Season 2 was all about.
What does having this cliffhanger ending add to that message,
exactly?
Okay, the point I'm trying to make in this long winded post is
that I GET IT. I've always gotten it. And this cliffhanger didn't
add ANYTHING to it. What Angel did was not good. He did lose in
the end. He did the wrong thing. He WAS corrupted. He made the
decision that the life of an innocent (perhaps a hero, even) was
worth sacrificing for the greater good. Not only that, but an
UNCERTAIN greater good. As I see it right now, W&H won in the
end, because they got Angel to fight on too large a scale. More
than he was capable of. And that's the end of him. He forgot how
to fight this war, and he'll die because of it. And when he dies,
will he still be a hero?
I think I'm very disappointed in this ending, and I'd like someone
to tell me I'm wrong.
Get the discussion going!!! :)
Love,
Evan.
Replies:
[> They did the best they could -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:48:03
05/19/04 Wed
No, the Senior Partners won't be anywhere near defeated and that
they would all probably die; Angel himself admitted that in episode
5.21 The difference between his Season 2 epiphany and now is that
back then he made the decision to keep going on doing little small
works of good, whereas here he decided to give his life in one
gigantic act. I think it's hardly in doubt that the world is better
off without the Black Thorn around. Sure, eventually they'll be
reformed and the evil machine will be back up and running, but
for a while at least the gears won't turn as well. Gunn killed
quite a few vampires (who by nature will go on to kill people),
as well as stopping a politician of pure evil from gaining power.
Spike rescued a baby and killed the demons who wanted to use it.
All of them killed off some of the more prolific evildoers in
Los Angeles, possibly the world. Yes, someone had to be sacraficed,
but that doesn't mean it's an automatic loss. If you do something
wrong but use it to do something right, it can come sometimes
come to a wash, or even a mark in the plus column. How many people
do you suppose are indirectly helped by the fact that these powerful
demons with connections to an otherworldly evil are dead? How
much evil won't be done for a while because the Senior Partners
need to get new representatives? I think it comes to being quite
a lot.
Sure, it repeats a lot from his Season 2 epiphany, but that's
because it was supposed to sum up Angel's mission. Plus, I think
the reason he switched from living "as if the world were
what it should be" to going out in a final blaze of glory
is so that he doesn't face the risk of eventually being corrupted.
He made a stand against the Senior Partners while he still had
the cajones to do it, rather then waiting for their timetable
to work out.
[> Re: Someone please tell my why my disappointment is misguided...
(Finale Spoilers) -- Corwin of Amber, 20:58:26 05/19/04
Wed
It occurred to me at some point - I think it was when Angel was
talking with Lyndsey, and he mentioned that the demons had owned
this planet/dimension/whatever, and now didn't - that this must
have been exactly the way the demons were banished in the first
place, millenia ago. A group of warriors decided enough was enough,
and made the sacrifices that needed to be made, and probably all
of them died. But they banished the demons. Since then, Wolf,
Ram & Hart have been trying to gain back control of the world,
but having to work through agents, in specific, the Circle of
the Black Thorn. Now, Angel & Co. have smashed the Black Thorn.
WR&H will find new agents to work through...but those agents will
know that their masters can't really protect them if the excrement
really hits the rotating metal blades.
"Personally? I'd like to fight a dragon..." - Angel
In myth and legend, the dragon almost always kills the hero, but
dies as well. Offhand, I can only recall the Greek hero, Cadmus,
and St. George, actally slaying a dragon and surviving. Beowulf,
Sigfried, Turin Turambar, the best they could manage was a mutual
kill. But they all slew dragons.
[> Okay. -- BrianWilly, 22:01:04 05/19/04 Wed
Is Angel crazy??? How could he underestimate the SPs so much?
Did he think he would destroy the circle of the black thorn and
the SPs would be totally thrown (or, in Angel's words, "miserable")
by the death of a few demons?
These were not just a few demons. They were the Senior Partners'
instruments on earth. They kept the wheels turning, and by taking
them out of the equation the wheels stop turning, at least for
a while. How long? Long enough to make a difference.
The fact that the Senior Partners were forced, finally, to unleash
their hordes is indication that every last peg as been knocked
from under their feet; this is their last stand as well as it
is Angel's. More on this below.
What Angel did was not good.
Why not?
He did lose in the end.
No...he's still alive. He's still fighting.
He did the wrong thing. He WAS corrupted.
In what way?
He made the decision that the life of an innocent (perhaps
a hero, even) was worth sacrificing for the greater good.
This seems to be a very odd complaint to me. What was Doyle's
sacrifice in "Hero" if not a decision that his own life
was worth giving for the greater good? What about Buffy's sacrifice
in "The Gift?" What about Spike's, in "Chosen?"
Maybe I'm just not getting your point right, but it seems to me
that part of the message of the shows is that real heroes go
as far as to sacrifice their own lives for a greater cause.
W&H won in the end, because they got Angel to fight on too
large a scale. More than he was capable of. And that's the end
of him.
Okay, discounting once again the fact that he's still alive and
fighting...
Wolfram & Hart did NOT win precisely because this is EXACTLY
the scale that they did NOT want Angel to fight on. The
purpose of Wolfram and Hart was entropy, not outright destruction.
They were never about destruction on a large scale. Their battle
is to keep the corruption of society moving along, and they were
accomplishing this through the members of the Circle. Now, thanks
to Angel and co., those members are -- at least temporarily --
no more. The Senior Partners thought they could control Angel
and bend him to their purposes. Now, Angel has shown them once
and for all in all finality that that will never happen.
He twisted their control over him and used the position they forced
him into to backstab the Senior Partners in the place that they
were most vulnerable and that was most important to them: the
Circle of the Black Thorn. No, they certainly did not just "win."
In fact, they've thrown everything they've had at Angel and he's
kept on fighting, and he's telling them now that short of sending
the armies of hell after him, they're never going to stop him.
He got them to fight on his terms and not on theirs.
He forgot how to fight this war, and he'll die because of it.
Again, we don't know if he dies.
How should Angel fight this war, then? In his stylish office,
signing checks and making deals with the devil? That exactly what
the Senior Partners want. We covered that extensively this
season: even if he helps out a few people, other people still
suffer because that's the nature of the business he runs. It runs
on the fact that people suffer. And that's not his duty. His duty
is to make sure that help people out, PERIOD. No subtext, no compromise,
no give-and-take. He can't do that as long as he's running on
power gained by evil.
Now, I agree that what Angel was doing in Seasons 1 2 and 3 were
what he was meant to be doing: saving lives, saving souls one
person at a time. That's what the Powers That Be had planned for
him and that was the mission that he was comfortable with. But
we've come a long way since then. Things haven't been going the
way that they should have...Doyle, Holtz, Conner, Darla, Jasmine,
Cordy. Things have never gone according to plan, according to
how things should have gone, and Wolfram and Hart is a large part
of the reason why. Angel's been forced to make decisions that
he shouldn't have to, he's made right choices and he's made mistakes,
leading right up to his deal with Wolfram and Hart. He can't just
walk away from that deal, and so he does the next best thing:
use the deal to his advantage, do the most good he can in this
world using the corrupted power that has been given to him.
And when he dies, will he still be a hero?
Why wouldn't he be?
[> [> Re: Okay. -- Evan, 22:38:15 05/19/04 Wed
Yeah, I guess I agree with most of your points. Except the hero
stuff - I still don't think Drogyn knew Angel was gonna kill him.
I don't even think Angel knew who it was he would have to kill.
So, Drogyn didn't sacrifice himself like Doyle or Spike. Angel
sacrificed him, for the greater good...
I feel like that army of demons at the end shows that the SPs
have an awful lot of resources... plenty of demons to choose from
to replace the circle of the black thorn. I just don't feel good
about the ending. I'm seeing it as an all out demon war in the
streets of L.A. - something that Angel caused which is NOT good
- when I'm supposed to be seeing it as... well, the way you're
seeing it - as showing that he's gotten the SPs to fight on his
own terms, and proven to them that they're not always in control
or whatever.
I guess whether or not that army shows that they ARE still in
control, or whether it's the exact opposite, is the very thing
that's left open-ended. It's the whole point. It's just not quite
sitting right with me... yet.
[> [> [> Re: Okay. -- Katrina, 14:15:50 05/20/04
Thu
I pretty much agree with you...Personally, I think the ending
was entirely appropriate for the show I always thought was much
darker and harsher than BtVS (and oddly, for that, funnier), but
I really wished they'd found a better cause for these people we've
cared about to sacrifice themselves for. It sits oddly with me
that what's explicitly framed as a suicide mission is supposedly
meant to carry a message of the need to keep fighting. (At least
according to what I read, extra-textually). I can find a way to
intellectually justify it, but viscerally, I feel like the message
is that since it's all futile anyway, we might as well go out
in a blaze of glory. When clearly, they can all do more good if
they stay alive. Maybe it's the season-long Wolfram & Hart arc
that I've never digested well: it seems like the conflict was
boiled down to two extreme choices, either to cooperate with ultimate
evil, or to die in a symbolic opposition. That's not very hopeful,
and too reductive for my taste. And I know, symbolically, Connor's
survival, Anne's cameo, Lorne's survival, can all be taken to
imply the goodness and hope that will live on, but it still unsettles
me. Like Angel's on a kamikaze mission to make a point, and is
willing to take with him a lot of people who could help clean
up the mess afterwards.
Loved the poetry slam, though!
[> Why ... (Finale Spoilers) -- Ames, 06:34:11 05/20/04
Thu
It was made very clear that Angel knew the senior partners could
not be defeated, and that he and the gang would likely all die
in the fight he planned.
This was all about Angel's realization that Lindsey's words were
true: the Apocalypse is happening every day all around them, in
thousands of small incremental steps. Every time they compromise
with evil, every time they decide to back off and live to fight
another day, evil wins just a little bit more. The good guys are
defeated by their own inability to sacrifice the people and things
that matter to them. The senior partners know this and take advantage
of it. In the end, Angel and the gang can't win at this game.
So what can he do? Kick over the board, that's what! Defy their
expectations of him. Refuse to play on. Go out in a blaze of glory,
taking out every one of the enemy he can get to.
Was he right to do it? Maybe, maybe not. But a fitting end for
the series.
For those of you who know
me... (Angel Finale Spoilers) -- Rob, 20:29:57 05/19/04
Wed
....you know that I do not say these words lightly: Not only did
I adore Not Fade Away, but I loved it even more than Chosen,
which as you all know, is a darn-near impossible feat.
I am so emotionally drained right now, I can't stay to type much,
but that was without a doubt in my mind the perfect ending to
the series. So cruel, and yet so perfect. How in the last moment,
although there were basically no chances of survival, they prepare
to fight. In the battle against good and evil, the decks were
always stacked against them. And the end, although I think we
are to assume they all die (or most of them, at least), the end
was not bleak or dour, but uplifting. As always, they left fighting
the good fight. I am glad Wesley never found out that he didn't
kill Vail, and I was moved beyond words by the kindness Illyria
performed for Wesley at the end, and how human she herself has
become. When she, Illyria of all people, started crying, I completely
lost it. Only later did I notice the beautiful symmetry between
the final scene of A Hole in the World and this one: Fred died
in Wesley's arms, and Wesley died in Fred's arms, and in both
cases Illyria rose at full strength a moment later. Don't even
get me started on the repetition of the "lie to me"
theme, or I'll start bawling all over again. Brilliant thematic
continuity there between the two series.
And speaking of plot continuity, not only did Spike read poetry,
and not only was it titled, "To Cecily," but he finally
found a suitable rhyme for "effulgent." That was just
beautiful.
There are too many moments for me to capture here, the feeling
of full-circleness when Gunn goes to the shelter to help Anne
and then fights the vamps old-school Gunn-style, Hamilton again
mentioning Doyle, Cordy, and Fred as the three people Angel lost,
not to mention the references to Angel's initial siring. And Angel's
rejection of the Shanshu, which even further strengthens the final
moments of the episode. He is fighting a fight he can't win, and
there is no reward waiting for him. And that final moment in the
alley, which if it wasn't the alley where Connor was born, was
strikingly (and importantly) similar to it. And of course as Darla
reminded us, Angel's journey began in an alley, as well.
At first, talking to my cousin, Rachel, we were struck by the
fact that the ending could be interpreted a different way by an
optimist or a pessimist: they manage to survive somehow, or they
all die. Then talking more we realized that that wasn't the point.
In a way, whether they live or not is not as important as the
fact that they fought regardless of their chances. Personally,
I think that the message may be stronger if they all died. Most
remarkable is that I feel the show (almost paradoxically) ends
on an even higher note if that is the case. What sells it for
me is that the show does not end on their corpses or the fallout
from the battle, but on their spirit and strength going into it.
And we of course already have evidence on the show that all of
them died, with Lorne the only one left standing. I point you
towards Exhibit A: Spin the Bottle. Now, there's brilliantly circular
continuity for ya. Whether they die or not, though, as I said,
isn't the point. I think even finding out one way or the other
might diminish the power of the final moments of the episode.
Because of what I have just said, I may be reconsidering joining
in ATPo's S6 project. I know right now I'm very emotional about
it, and it just ended, so I don't want to rule out the possibility
for good now. Don't get me wrong, I would love the story to continue.
But on the other hand, the ending to me just feels so perfect,
so right, that I don't know if I want to alter my perception of
it by helping continue it. I like the open ending, and as I already
said, I'm kind of leaning on the side that they were all killed
or most of them were anyway (Angel does have the superpowered
Hamilton blood in him right now, and Illyria is still extremely
powerful, and Spike is Spike so I'm not ruling out the very good
chance that they would make it out, improbability aside, although
poor Gunn won't last long in a battle in his current condition,
I don't think), so it would be hard for me to convincingly continue
the story from that standpoint. But I'll wait and see.
For now, wow, dude, I am just basking in the glory of Joss Whedon's
vision. Damn, he is a beautiful man. I am feeling the conflicting
urges of wanting to kill him and wanting to hug him at the same
time.
Rob
Replies:
[> Re: For those of you who know me... (Angel Finale Spoilers)
-- Apophis, 21:11:34 05/19/04 Wed
I agree that it's better if they all die. I don't think that's
a pessimistic response, either; it's not the dying that's the
point, it's the fighting in spite of certain defeat that is. That's
all I'm going to say for the moment; I've never been the most
articulate person here and (as I said in chat) I've had a little
to drink. For the record, Angel finale = 7.8 out of 10.
[> Re: For those of you who know me... (Angel Finale Spoilers)
-- Traveler, 21:20:18 05/19/04 Wed
Rob, although I'd really like to have a sixth season as well,
it isn't going to happen. DB has said point blank that he isn't
interested in doing anything less than a big screen movie.
HOWEVER, I'm trying to start a campaign for a spin-off with Spike
as the lead (and including as many of the other "Angel"
actors as possible). If you're interested in learning more, it's
listed as "TV campaign" at saveangel.org. If you have
some time to spare, I could definitely use more volunteers...
[> You never know... (Angel Finale Spoilers) -- Ames,
06:10:34 05/20/04 Thu
Maybe Gunn will turn out to be the only survivor.
But if he got his own spin-off series, I'm sure that Lorne, Connor,
and someone who looks like Fred and doesn't remember anything
would turn up eventually.
Public Letter to Joss Whedon
-- ZachsMind,
21:11:45 05/19/04 Wed
Public letter to Joss. Somebody please make sure he gets this.
We can't ever say thank you enough, but here I'm gonna try.
Thank you for the little bedtime story, Mr. Whedon. Five years.
We never got tired. We never got bored. Pissed off occasionally.
Frustrated. Disturbed. Creeped out. When Connor and Cordy had
sex I darn near wanted to turn away in disgust. Then you showed
Angel looking on with the rain of fire whispering in the distance.
Sometimes life is cruel. Sometimes life is hard. Sometimes life
doesn't make sense and yet it makes perfect sense at the same
time. Art imitates life.
Angel was light. Dark. Surreal. Hard core. Everything one would
want from a tv show and more. Thank you for over a hundred episodes.
Thank you for a wealth of characters that invade our dreams. Thank
you for some brilliant dialogue, some marvelous eye candy. Thank
you for showing us Harmony punching out Lorne. Thank you for showing
Lindsey playing guitar with his new hand. Thank you for the Sanshu
prophecy, and thank you for both taking it seriously and treating
it like a joke. Thank you for the cryptic pez between Wesley and
Angel just before they never saw one another again.
Thank you for Doyle kissing Cordy before sacrificing himself.
Thank you for Doyle doing the commercial. Thank you for Doyle
almost becoming dinner for his ex's wedding reception. Thanks
for Doyle believing in Angel when nobody else did. Thank you for
..for Doyle. Just thanks all around there. Great character who
left way too soon.
Thank you for Wesley's tragic yet heroic growth arc. The betrayal.
The sliced neck. The imprisoning hostages. The recovering Angel
when all hope seemed lost. The dancing in season one, and the
creepy moment when he's got books all over the floor and he's
working out just what Ilyria is with an obsessive compulsive yet
subtle demeanor.. Y'know what? Thanks for Wesley.
Thank you for meeting Fred in the cave. Thank you for every time
Lorne got to sing. Thank you for the old ghost lady calling Cordy
a bitch. Thank you for Gunn saying goodbye to his sister. Thank
you for Lorne's severed head.
Thanks. Thanks for all the moments I remember and all the ones
I remember after I go to sleep. Thanks to all the people you got
together, and all the people they got together, to make Angel
the series come together. Thanks for Buffy and Firefly too. Thanks
for everything you'll do in the future, and all the stuff you
tried to get to the public but didn't quite make it cuz network
suits suck.
I know you're proud. You should be. I know you're a thousand emotions
only some of which you have words to express. We are too. There
are so few people who get to be and do what you are and have.
And will. See the crazy thing is, some would say this is enough.
Buffy, Angel, Firefly. You have accomplished more than most people
do in a lifetime. Yet I know you ain't done. It ain't in ya. And
when you do the next series or movie or comic or dvd or whatever
you pull outta your ass, we'll be here to ride the coaster.
Bob Hope once said thanks for the memories. I say thank you for
the dreams. Now I want you to lie to me. Tell me everything's
gonna be alright. Tell me it's terribly simple. There will be
a network out there that will let you continue to tell stories
in what we affectionately call the BuffyVerse. Tell me you can
do it without having to use Buffy or Angel. Tell me you can find
other people to continue the fight against evil, where the good
guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are never easily
distinguished, and champions sometimes always defeat the villians
and save the day. Tell me there's still more apocalyspes..seez..
sesses.. si..? Acacalypsi?
No one ever dies, and they all live happily ever after. Lie to
me ,liar. Tell me a story. Oh. Wait. You just did.
Thanks for Angel. Great run. I won't say I'm gonna miss it. I
won't say goodbye. Champions are but a heartbeat away.
Replies:
[> Zachsmind, you just made me cry.. -- Jane, 01:13:49
05/20/04 Thu
What a beautiful letter. You have expressed what I suspect many
people are feeling tonight, and if I wasn't emotional enough after
Angel, this just tipped me over the edge.
Bit embarrassing though,'cause I'm sitting at work,trying to pretend
I just have a case of the allergy sniffles. I sure hope Joss gets
your letter.
[> [> Amen! -- Wizard, 01:38:34 05/20/04 Thu
[> Very nice -- Ann, 06:49:05 05/20/04 Thu
[> Good to see ya, ZM! And what a beautiful post. Thanks
for sharing it with us (and hopefully Joss). -- Rob, 08:39:12
05/20/04 Thu
[> i hope joss does see this, zachsmind... -- anom,
12:06:44 05/20/04 Thu
....especially the part that starts "I know you're proud."
Question about Alexis Denisof
(SPOILERS for Finale) -- Traveler, 22:07:13 05/19/04 Wed
Does anybody know how he felt about the idea of a sixth season?
Not to say that Joss wouldn't kill Wesley anyway, but I wonder
if Alex was tired of playing the role and wanted to quit?
Replies:
[> Re: Question about Alexis Denisof (SPOILERS for Finale)
-- Ames, 06:17:25 05/20/04 Thu
I wondered about that too. I thought that AD was one of the most
likely to participate in any future movie/spin-off etc.
But as you say, death not necessarily an obstacle.
Anyway, as I mentioned in the chat last night:
a) I'm not sure we actually saw Wes die. He was fading fast at
the end, but we cut away. Later Illyria said that he died, but
nobody else was present.
b) "Fred" said to dying Wes that they would be together.
Maybe Wes has been absorbed somehow by Illyria.
[> [> How many tenants can Fred's body have at one time?
(NT) -- mrsubjunctive, 08:42:31 05/20/04 Thu
Remember the Cautionary Tale...
-- Genivive, 03:40:49 05/20/04 Thu
Number Five and his brothers foreshadowed this. Heroes rise and
fall,other heroes rise to replace them and the battle goes on.
That doesn't negate what the AI gang did.
Put me in the I loved it slot
Movie parallels (spoilers
for Not Fade Away) -- ScottS,
10:09:28 05/20/04 Thu
Did anyone else notice parallels between the final scenes of this
episode and the final scenes of The Godfather (part 1)?
Replies:
[> Re: Movie parallels (spoilers for Not Fade Away)
-- CW, 12:02:38 05/20/04 Thu
Yes, it looked like that was what was going to happen back in
the previous episode. Lorne's contribution sealed the connection
to The Godfather for me.
LOVED THE EPISODE (SPOILERS)
-- Spike Lover, 11:29:11 05/20/04 Thu
Loved the episode. REally liked Illyria. Missed Lilah. I noticed
how open ended the ending was and wondered if they did it that
way in order to do a movie later.
Absolutely LOVED SPIKE AT THE POETRY BAR.
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