May 2004

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series direction -- jenny's love, 09:41:49 05/13/04 Thu

does anyone know the storyline/plot direction season 5 would have taken had the series not been cancelled. would it have just been about battling illyria. Was "shells" how it was supposed to be, or was the episode redone after the cancellation announcement (I realize that would have been cutting it real close, seeing as it aired less than a month after the series was revealed to be cancelled.)? Furthermore, does anyone know what ideas would have been incorporated beyond the Illyria storyline and the overall series arc if the show had continued beyond this season, past the Illyria storyline? As it is, it is rather unique that Illyria and "Shells" turned out to be anti-climactic and red-herring-like.

Replies:

[> Re: series direction -- Evan, 09:53:24 05/13/04 Thu

Nah, I think they already knew what they wanted to do with Illyria. If she'd been the big bad of the season, it would've ended up being too much like evil Willow in Buffy, but a lot less interesting. I expect it was always supposed to be a "mislead" of sorts, for the purpose of exploring an interesting new character rather than having Fred become the big bad.

[> [> Re: series direction -- Slayer's Soul, 13:33:23 05/13/04 Thu

I think that the story is about the same. However, I wonder if Wes was always supposed to die in the end? It seems to me that the writers may have wanted to pair Illyria with Spike, at least those are the vibes I've been getting. I think it would have been very interesting if we did get the 6th season.

[> [> [> very, very, very pissed off (mad) at this lack of spoiler alert... -- Seven, 12:00:20 05/14/04 Fri

Slayer's soul. You HAVE to put notices on your spoilers. I am now spoiled for the biggest suprise of the finale. Thank you so much. The entire episode and (because it's the finale) the series, is really ruined for me. Not like I can just hope it doesn't happen again, because there is no again. Again, thanks so much....

7

[> [> Re: series direction -- Slayer's Soul, 13:35:53 05/13/04 Thu

I think that the story is about the same. However, I wonder if Wes was always supposed to die in the end? It seems to me that the writers may have wanted to pair Illyria with Spike, at least those are the vibes I've been getting. I think it would have been very interesting if we did get the 6th season.

[> [> [> MAJOR SPOILERS for FINALE above -- radioreverie, 14:28:45 05/13/04 Thu

[> I think not vastly different -- Bjerkley, 15:03:21 05/13/04 Thu

I think they only really didn't have the last 3 episodes set in stone when they heard the news of cancellation.

As far as I know, from interviews, everything before The Girl In Question stayed as it was. I think it's too much trouble to change everything once they'd filmed or written it. But I think for the last 3 episodes, they went in knowing that this was the end, so that would had to have some effect.

And as I'm not spoiled, I can't tell whether or not the plot comes naturally out of what went before, or whether even it seems like an series ending.

Entirely too many people seem to know one another (Spoilers, AtS 5.21) -- penitence, 11:15:21 05/13/04 Thu

Does anyone have any theories about Marcus Hamiliton's apparently long-standing relationship with Drogyn? "We go way back." Whaaaat?
I was already thoroughly confused by the fact that Angel and Drogyn "were like brothers". When? How?
Clearly Drogyn "the battle-brand" was a warrior/champion for (I assume) the PTB before he became the Keeper of the Well. Fighting Marcus Hamilton, the warrior/champion of the SPs?

Replies:

[> Well, he was around for a thousand years -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:42:50 05/13/04 Thu

I suspect during that period of time, you get to know a lot of people who work in the same field. Add in the fact that souled Angel has been around for a hundred years himself and Hamilton could be any conceivable age, it doesn't seem that odd.

[> [> Well, he was apparently living in the Deeper Well for most of that time -- Doug, 15:01:48 05/13/04 Thu

And Hamilton talked about Drogyn living in a tree as if it was a development that occured after their last meeting, and therefore before Drogyn got eternal youth and took up guarding the Deeper Well. So Hamilton is at a minimum 1000 years old, though he could very well be much older. Of course, since Drogyn was apparently a renowned enough Demon-fighter to gain the sobriquet "Demon-Brand" before he was given his duties and started living in the cave there must have been plenty of opportunities for him to meet all kind of supernatural beings.

[> [> [> Nope, he was only the Guardian of the Well for the past few decades. -- Rob, 15:20:13 05/13/04 Thu

He said that in A Hole in the World.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Oh. -- Doug, 15:23:48 05/13/04 Thu

I hate forgetting stuff like this.

Looks like I'm going to have to watch "A Hole in the World" Again.

All right everybody, move along. Don't stare at my shame.

[> [> [> [> [> Heh, don't worry about it. I wouldn't have remembered either if I hadn't JUST rewatched it! -- Rob, 16:19:30 05/13/04 Thu

[> <whine>Maaaaaasq!!! (Spoilers 5x21) -- angel's nibblet, 01:59:59 05/16/04 Sun

I would like to take this opportunity to voice my great distress over the death of Drogyn. *SOB*

Can we resurrect him for our season 6, Masq? Oh please please pleeeease?

*puppy dog eyes*

[> [> Re: <whine>Maaaaaasq!!! (Spoilers 5x21, unspoiled spec 5.22) -- Masq, 17:29:01 05/16/04 Sun

Well, it is possible it was just faking his death....

OTOH, he's Drogyn, he doesn't fake much. Maybe he's immortal and he can't really die. In a few hours he'll wake right up.

We'll have to see 5.22 first, nibblet!

Power, money and means to the end (spoilers 5.21 and [possibly?] 5.22) -- Tyreseus, 14:49:33 05/13/04 Thu

I hate being spoiled, but occasionally it accidentally happens. This time, I heard a rumor that the character of Anne would appear in the finale. I don't know if this is true or not, but if it is, I can see a great deal of symbolic importance in her character compared to Angel as we near the end of season 5.

Last time we saw Anne was in "Blood Money" Angel was offering her money from Wolfram & Hart.

Anne: "How dare you? I risked everything in there. I risked my kids. You never even planned to expose the scheme."
Angel: "They would have covered it up. I just wanted to shake them up a bit. - It's not much, but it's a start."
Anne: "And the money?"
Angel: "The money was tainted."
Anne: "I don't even care about..."
Angel: "Yes, you do. That's the difference between us. - You still care."

All Angel cares about now is shaking up the Senior Partners. He knows his upcoming act won't change the world, but he'll make it anyway. It's not much, but it's a start.

And in the final scene.

Angel turning to go: "Wolfram and Hart find out that you have that money..."
Anne: "I can find a way to hide it. (She fingers the money than looks at the dark liquid coming off onto her fingers) What's this?"
Angel: "Blood."
Anne looks at him, looks down, hesitates for a moment, then: "It'll wash."

What has that money done to our Anne? I eagerly hope we find out if she's living the good life off that money or still helping the homeless.

This season, it's Angel who has been accepting the blood money. Killing Drogyn, using Fred's death, selling babies to demons, defaming honest politicians are all means to an end. The power he seeks is tainted. Does he care? Really?

Serve no master but your ambition? Evil done in the name of good is still evil, isn't it? It's the mindset of the zealot or terrorist who justifies the killing of innocents in the path of serving the greater good.

At the end of the episode, Angel, Spike, Wesley, Gunn and Lorne are all ready to die for the cause. They will accept death, even go to it willingly (though, not without a fight). This contrasts Illyria and Drogyn's conversation. Illyria isn't even sure she likes living in this world, but she continues in it. She is ruled by the instinct for self-preservation.

Politics were introduced into tonight's episode and I can't help but think metaphorically of other political situation. Was Angel's murder of Drogyn the act of a religious terrorist intent on destroying his enemies even if his own people are caught in the bomb? Is Angel a suicide bomber walking into the black thorn circle with bombs strapped to his chest? Is Angel the Muslin/Jewish/Christian fundamentalist leader convincing his followers that it is noble and good to destroy the infidel at any cost?

Angel isn't anyone's puppet anymore. He's not a champion or hero for the cause of good. He's a radical activist trying to make a point no matter who endangers. It's not the ultimate result that matters to him anymore, it's the statement. He's not fighting for a cause, he's just making a point.

Tyreseus

Replies:

[> Likely casting spoilers for 5.22 above -- Masq, 15:51:52 05/13/04 Thu

Just making the warning a bit stronger. ; )

[> [> Seriously, if you want to be unspoiled don't even click -- Sofdog, 16:01:32 05/13/04 Thu

I thought I knew all the casting spoilers. First sentence hit me outta left field.

Bad Sof. Bad.

[> [> Thanks. I don't even know if it's 100% true or not myself. -- Tyreseus, 16:14:04 05/13/04 Thu

[> Concerning the means to his end... -- BrianWilly, 18:59:07 05/13/04 Thu

One important thing to note is that beyond the ambiguous murder of Drogyn(was Dro happy? Sad? Relieved? His "thank you" leaves a lot of questions), none of Angel's deals have really resulted in anything bad yet.

He gave the baby to the Fell Brethren, but he won't be sacrificed until he's 13. That's plenty of time for Angel's people or something else to rescue him, if they're not already planning it for next week.

He put up a facade of not caring about the victim of the demon attack this weak, but Spike and Illyria took care of the demon anyway, as he probably suspected that they would.

He told the senator that he would work on defaming her opponent, but also said that he wasn't sure how long it would take. Her vamp aide mentioned that the election's in November. However, if all goes according to Angel's plan, the good senator -- well, evil senator -- will be long dead by then.

The implication that Angel had something to do with Illyria's return was something that he himself fabricated.

Power Play-The Words of Gunn S4 (Power Play & Season 5 Spoilers in General) -- heywhynot, 17:14:36 05/13/04 Thu

Listening to Angel's speech to the gang, I was reminded of Gunn's words back in Season 4 (Inside Out) when Fred is worried that all of them are just pieces on a chess board:
GUNN
"Then we'll kick it over and start a new game. Look, monochrome can yap all he wants about no-name's cosmic plan but here's a little something I picked up rubbin' mojos these past couple of years: the final score can't be rigged. I
don't care how many players you grease, that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing- you never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the legion of doom or just crossing the street deciding where to have brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you, the world in the balance, 'cause you never know when it is."

Angel has flipped the game on the Circle. He is taking his shot, what he believes just might be his last. He is not looking for a reward. He just wants to gum up the works to give others a chance to carry on, to no longer be helpless pawns of the Circle if even only for brief moment. To not suffer even for the tiniest sliver of time. It might spiral into more. This might be the butterfly that flaps its wings in Africa creating a hurricane in the Gulf.

I am also reminded of the Martin Niemöller quote:
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me-
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

The lesson is to act when you can. Don't turn you back to evil, speak out, fight back. You do not know if you will have more chances.

Cordelia's vision kiss gave Angel a chance as did Fred's demise. The rules of the Circle's game was either you sell out or you fight them on their terms. Angel is not playing their game anymore but the Circle still is. They are blinded. They wanted Angel to sell out and join them. He gave them the vision they wanted to see without giving up anything. They serve no master but their ambition afterall. Angel isn't actually going through with trashing the Senator's opponent. The baby to be sacrificed was a choice the mother made, a situation he can still change. He did not actually sacrifice Fred. The Circle is playing his game now.

"All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."-Angel, Epiphany

Angel to me has returned to this view of the world. His act is small, without reward. He just wants to end the suffering of others caused by the Circle. Hubris hasn't taken over Angel, he knows there are other champions in the world. The potential is in each person. What Angel also knows is he is the champion who can take this shot with his friends, his family.

Fredless question -- ghady, 10:18:46 05/14/04 Fri

Yes, it's me with my questions again. Fred's parents seemed a little "evil" at first--as if they were up to something. How come they didn't do anything in the end? Was the whole "we have to do it sooner than we thought" thing a horrible and misplaced attempt at fooling the viewer?

Replies:

[> yes it was -- Ray, 10:54:19 05/14/04 Fri

[> Re: Fredless question -- Rob, 13:10:33 05/14/04 Fri

Was the whole "we have to do it sooner than we thought" thing a horrible and misplaced attempt at fooling the viewer?

Wouldn't call it horrible and misplaced, but a successful subversion of what we have come to expect from a Whedon show. Fred is the only character from the Buffyverse to have come from a completely "normal" family situation with two parents who loved and supported her. At the start of the episode, they teased our expectations from episodes such as Family, and ended up giving us something entirely unexpected and sweet instead. The "we might have to call them in sooner than we thought" was possibly referring to the police, or perhaps even a mental institution they think Fred might need, due to her strange behavior. Had there been no possibly ominous clues, there wouldn't have been much of a twist, would there? It is important to the story that the team first be suspicious of them, as they are of all parents in the Buffyverse, and then be proven wrong.

Rob

Those Seer kids in season 1 -- David, 11:37:49 05/14/04 Fri

Does anyone remember those seer children that Wolfram and Hart tried to kill and Wes said they had a big part to play in the apocalypse and the Lindsay says they are a big threat to W&H. What happened to them and why were they such a big threat, also if angel wants to stop this apocalypse then why doesn't he find out why they are a threat?.
Thanks and sorry if this has been asked before

Replies:

[> Re: Those Seer kids in season 1 -- Sofdog, 20:57:26 05/14/04 Fri

The kids were a triumvirate whose combined talent was to "see into the heart of things." I suppose their as dangerous as anyone with information that the enemies of Wolfram & Hart could use to advantage. And there's no shortage of such people (Lindsay, etc.) around.

High Hopes......spoilers for Angel 5.21 "Power Play" -- Rufus, 20:52:17 05/14/04 Fri

Next time your found, with your chin on the ground
There a lot to be learned, so look around

Just what makes that little old ant
Think he'll move that rubber tree plant
Anyone knows an ant, can't
Move a rubber tree plant

But he's got high hopes, he's got high hopes
He's got high apple pie, in the sky hopes

So any time your gettin' low
'stead of lettin' go
Just remember that ant
Oops there goes another rubber tree plant

When troubles call, and your back's to the wall
There a lot to be learned, that wall could fall

Once there was a silly old ram
Thought he'd punch a hole in a dam
No one could make that ram, scram
He kept buttin' that dam

'cause he had high hopes, he had high hopes
He had high apple pie, in the sky hopes

So any time your feelin' bad
'stead of feelin' sad
Just remember that ram
Oops there goes a billion kilowatt dam

All problems just a toy balloon
They'll be bursted soon
They're just bound to go pop
Oops there goes another problem kerplop

Angel's gang has spent the past months in the Belly of the Beast which is a guarantee of some sort of transformation. All of them got stars or cars or books or beakers in their eyes as all their material needs were met readily by Wolfram and Hart. Getting what you want is no guarantee you have what you need to live on. Best intentions started the whole exercise and to this date the result has been a dead Fred.

I won't go through the early part of the episode but get right into some of the best bits. Illyria and Spike go hunting a Boretz demon which is innocent enough but proves that Illyria can work with others, even if she doesn't really want to.

Spike: See? This isn't so bad now. Little field trip out in the...well, what passes in this city for fresh air. All we need now is to bag ourselves a Boretz demon - we got ourselves a perfect date.

Illyria: Angel does not think the casualties of this creature are important enough to avenge.

Spike: Yeah, I think corporate living's made him lose his love for the hunt. No worries more for me then.

Illyria: It does not serve his interest.

Spike: What are you on about?

Illyria: I've seen this before with many rulers. Your leader has been corrupted.

Spike: Hey, hang on. In the first place Angel's not my leader. In the second, what the bloody hell do you mean corrupted?

Illyria: It always begins the same. A ruler turns a blind eye to the dealings of battles from which he cannot gain, and a deaf ear to the counsel of those closest to him. As his strength increases, so does the seperation between him and his foll--

Spike: Shhh!! You smell that?

Illyria: The odors of everything in this world of man are equally repugnant to me.

Spike: Bloody helpful. You're wrong about Angel not that I don't think the sod could end up being a megalomaniacle bastard - it's just if he did, I'd know about it. I'd feel it.

Illyria: You'll have proof soon enough. A corrupted ruler on such a path see's treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates and will eventually turn against them.

Spike: Guess I don't have to worry about that 'cause me and Angel have never been intimate...except that one...

Illyria: Mark me...he will murder one of you.

Drogyn: Actually he has.

Interesting that Illyria is used to help resign the gang to the fact that Angel may have gone to the dark side. Illyria as an old one has a perspective consitant with the Senior Partners in that she expects the worst based upon her past experiences of demons or rulers. The Senior Partners have used Wolfram and Hart to tempt the gang into keeping the machine going based upon their experience with weak corruptable people. They didn't take into consideration that sometimes heroes rise above the others to do the unexpected....not before...

Drogyn: It was a Sathari, part of a clan of demon assassins. They fell upon me last night. The poison from his 4 blades wearing heavy on my limbs.

Spike: Yeah, rousing bit of rah rah, mate - get to the goods.

Drogyn: Once I bested him, I tortured the Sathari for hours, until he confessed who had sent him. It was Angel.

Spike: Tell 'em why.

Drogyn: He said Angel was afraid I'd find something in the Deeper Well. Something that would uncover the truth about his involvement.

Gunn: In what?

Drogyn: Helping Illyria escape from her tomb.

Wes: I thought the release of her sarcoughagus from the Deeper Well was pre-destined.

Spike: Yeah, what about that bit?

Drogyn: Well, that is what I thought at the time, but now I believe...Illyria's resurrection may have been planned.

Gunn: By Angel.

Lorne: Oh, that doesn't make a lick of sense. I mean, why would Angel want to spring an Old One?

Drogyn: I don't think that was the point.

Gunn: Then what was?

Drogyn: Before he died, the assassin said something about a sacrifice...someone trusted and dear.

Wes: Are you saying that Angel was responsible for what happened to Fred?

Drogyn: He may not have chosen her specifically but...

Lorne: Whoa! Let's put a kibosh on that sentence before it turns into an ass kicking.

Drogyn: Do you think I gain pleasure in this? I held Angel an ally - a brother.

Wes: And you believe he may have murdered Fred?

Drogyn: I know this is difficult for you but Angel was involved. The information retrieved from the assassin.

Gunn: You ever think maybe he was lying?

Drogyn: No one lies when they're at the mercy of my wrath.

Gunn: Then, you're the liar...Aragorn!

Spike: He has to tell the truth...it's a curse or something.

Gunn: How can we be sure? We don't even know this guy.

Wes: Gunn, this is Drogyn - The Battlebrand, given eternal youth a thousand years ago. Demon bane, truth-sayer...Watcher's Council.

Spike: Percy did a paper, bully for him.

Wes: Drogyn, any idea what this symbol means?

Drogyn: No.

Spike: Where'd you get that?

Wes: This afternoon, someone tapped into the (books) template interface, sent a message to me. And that symbol. Somebody's dropping clues.

The gang doubts Angel, not for the first time. It's hard when you deal with a guy who can lose his soul with a potential perfect happy...seems the past years have been spent making sure Angel is happy...just not that happy. So, fearing the folks at Wolfram and Hart have found some new way to make Angel happy the gang questions him and gets the Ant speech....

Wes: Business...what business are we in Angel?

Angel: Do I really have to explain this to you people? We're in the business of business. Oil, software, worldwide wickets...the product doesn't matter, it's the game that matters...get to the top...be the best... have the most - win.

Wes: Win what?

Angel: You're still missing the point.

Gunn: That Angel talkin? Cause it sounds a lot more like Angelus.

Angel: Oh, if I were Angelus, half of you would already be dead - just for the fun of it.

Angel has a point, Angelus doesn't have the restraint to do much more than destroy for the sake of it, for the fun of it. He could never be anything but the top dog.

Angel: You want to know the truth? The truth is there's only one of us who ever understood how things really work...Lorne.

Lorne: Whoa! hey hey hey! Can I not be the poster child for your nervous breakdown.

Angel: You didn't judge. You didn't spend your life obsessed with Good and Evil. You do that - you get swallowed, lost in the minutia. Good, bad. Angel, Angelus...none of it makes a difference. I wish it did but, you know an Ant with the best intentions or the most diabolical schemes, is just that - an Ant. There is one thing in this business, in this apocalypse that we call the world that matters...power. Power tips the scale, power sets the course. And until I have real power - global power, I have nothing, I accomplish nothing.

Wes: And how you get this power.

Angel: Isn't pretty, isn't fun. You think it's Wolfram and Hart getting to me here, and maybe you're right, because they've shown us what power it. From day one, they've been calling the shots and all we've done is get shot at. I have a chance to change that.

Lorne: And will you? I mean, not to play an old song, but power does traditionally corrupt. You get high up enough and well, the people they do start to look like Ants.

Angel: I can't worry about that -- the small stuff.

Sounds like Angel memorized that speech from Holland Manners, and the gang is beginning to believe his words. One thing they didn't see that we did is Angel sending Nina and her sister and mother away from the battle. If they saw that I don't think they would have bought the act.

One thing I noticed was when Angel slams the double doors of the CEO's office he is just like Illona in Rome...part of that other side of the door, that other side of the scale...evil, or so it would seem.

The next little bit is my favorite. Drogyn and Illyria playing a video game...both have this child-like stare while trying to figure it out.

Drogyn: It is a test - a task of some sort. You must collect those crystals.....and the fruit.

Illyria: Why?

Drogyn: Old One, you have no right to walk this earth. Your time has past, you belong to the Well.

Illyria: Truly, I wish now I had never been brought out of it.

Drogyn: Do you?

Illyria: I don't know. I play this game. It's pointless, and, it annoys me. And yet, I'm compelled to play on. Does that not --

Hamilton interrupts their chat about "the game" and beats Illyria to the ground and takes Drogyn. But I'm going to the part about Lindsey.

Wes shows Lindsey the drawing of the symbol.

Lindsey: Where'd you get that?

Wes: It doesn't matter. What does it mean?

Lindsey: Is that what all this is about? All these questions about Angel? No, no way, no way they'd take Angel.

Spike: Who, they?

Lindsey: The Circle of the Black Thorne.

Lorne: Sounds like a little sewing club for pirates.

Lindsey: It's a secret society.

Gunn: Never heard of them.

Lindsey: That's cause they're secret.

Spike: There's plenty of these cabals about. They usually spend a lot of time in basements, paddling one anothers bums to prove their manhood.

Lindsey: These are not frat boys, Spike. The Circle's small, it's elite. They go connections you boys can't even comprehend.

Wes: They're evil.

Lindsey: Sure, but evil's not the point. Power is.

Wes: Power.

Gunn: Ok, we get it, they're badass. What do they do?

Lindsey: Jeeze, are you guys always this slow? Huh? Starts with "A" ends in "pocalypse". It's a well oiled machine, this Circle. These people grease the wheels, keep the parts in place, make sure man's inhumanity to man keeps rolling along.

Wes: We thought the Senior Partners' were responsible for the apocalypse.

Lindsey: The Senior Partners' are on a different plane. Down here, it's the players in the Circle that make things happen. Hell, you get tapped by one of them, it's kinda like getting the keys to the Chocolate Factory.

Wes: That's why you came back to LA., tried to kill Angel, to get into the Circle.

Lindsey: To be a Black Thorne is to be the Senior Partners instrument on Earth, doesn't get bigger than that.

Gunn: Looks like Angel succeeded where you failed.

Lindsey: He doesn't have it in him.

Wes: Doesn't have what in him?

Lindsey: Well, for starters, he's gotta give up the Champion angle - quit saving girls in alleys. Probably wouldn't even make it on the Circle's radar til he killed one of his Lieutenants.

Lorne: The Senior Partners, the Circle...they're killing Angel by degrees.

Wes: And we all watched it happen.

Gunn: The guy I knew wouldn't want this - wouldn't wanna be this.

Wes: Angel dedicated his life to helping others - not because he had to, but because it was a path he'd chosen. If he's been swayed from that influence, then, maybe there's still time - we can bring him back. He'd do the same for any of us, regardless of our actions.

Lorne: And What if he's skipped too far down the Evil Brick Road?

Wesley's line about bringing Angel back reminds me of Frodo's desire to reform Gollum as if you can bring someone back from an evil influence, there is hope for yourself. Wes most of all needs to believe in Angel as hope is all he has left. After this scene we get to see the replay of what happened in the teaser. Angel going through the flaming door to find a man being beaten. He removes the hood on the man's head and can see it's Drogyn. The last words out of Drogyn's mouth are "Thank you, thank you". Angel vamps out bites Drogyn then does the chiropractors snap on him. One has to wonder in a war between Good and Evil where each side will torture the other, who has the higher moral ground? Is torture ok only if you are the winner? I guess a necessary evil? I don't know if they will revisit the "death" of Drogyn (remember he has eternal youth), or will it just be what it is, a small part of a larger battle, a means to an end?

With Drogyn dead, Angel is invited into the Power Circle, which includes, Cyrus Vail, Senator Bitch....

Senator: I didn't claw my way up from Hell, and get installed in a human body, just to have some pedophile steal my senate seat.

The horned guy, Sebassis, and some others. Vail speaks briefly to Angel who can only reply..

Angel: Ultimately everything worked out for the best.

Angel's in, and the gang no longer trust their leader. They ambush him in his office and the fight, such as it is, starts. Angel easily gets the upper hand and a handful of Lorne and then we get the reveal....

Angel: Now, let's finish this. "INVOLVERE".......all right, we have 6 minutes.

Spike: Til what?

Angel: The glamour collapses. As far as anyone outside this room is concerned, we're still at each other's throats.

Wes: Aren't we?

Angel: Look, we don't have a lot of time here, so I'm gonna have to make this short. Everything you think you know - everything you've heard is a lie.

Gunn: Why should we believe you?

Angel: Cause I'm the one who told it. (to Wes) Read any good books lately?

Wes: You sent us the message.

Angel: And the assassin to kill Drogyn.

Spike: So, that part was true.

Angel: I knew Drogyn could handle himself. I told the assassin, just enough to lead Drogyn to think I played a part in resurrecting Illyria. I figured he would come here looking for allies.

Wes: Why would you want us to believe you killed Fred?

Angel: Because they needed to believe it.

Gunn: The Black Thorne.

Angel: They needed to believe my own people didn't trust me anymore. They needed to believe a person as good and as pure as Drogyn considered me an enemy. It was the only way to gain their confidence.

Lorne: Oh so this whole evil Angel thing has been a big scamola? Hmm I smell Oscar?

Spike: When did this all start?

Angel: Two months ago - with a kiss. Though it didn't hit me til later that night.

Wes: Cordelia gave you her visions.

Angel: One shot deal - she put me on the path. Showed me where the real powers are. But I couldn't see who they were. And then, Fred died and I wasn't gonna let that be another random horrible event, in another random horrible world. So, I decided to use it, to make her death matter. And it worked - I'm in. I've seen the faces of evil I know who the real powers in the Apocalypse are.

Gunn: So, all that power tilts the scales crap...

Angel: It's true, we're in a machine. That machine's gonna be here long after our bodies are dust. But the Senior Partners will always exist in one form or another. Because mankind is weak.

Lorne: Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at him, cause I think he's gonna start talking about Ants again.

Angel: WE are weak...the powerful control everything - except our will to choose. Look, Lindsey's a pathetic half-wit, but he was right about one thing - Heroes don't accept the way the world is. The Senior Partners may be eternal, but we can make their existance painful.

Wes: You wanna take them on?

Angel: We're in a machine, the Black Thorne runs it. We can bring their gears to a grinding halt....even if it's just for a moment.

Spike: About time we got our hands dirty.

Angel: This isn't a keep-fighting-the-good-fight kind of deal. Let's be clear, I'm talking about killing every...single...member of the The Black Thorne. We don't walk away from that.

Lorne: Do we crawl away at least?

Angel: We do this, the Senior Partners will rain their whole wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full on hell, not the basic fire and brimstone kind we're used to.

Gunn: We know the drill.

Angel: No, you don't. Ten to one, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So, I need you to be sure. Power endures - we can't bring down the Senior Partners. But for one bright shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So, we'll vote - as a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do. Think about what I'm asking you to give.

Spike: Kill em all--bring the house down while we're still in it.

Angel: Something like that.

Spike: Huh (his hand goes up) I'm in.

Wes: I'm in.

Gunn raises his hand, Lorne goes to raise his and we cut to Hamilton looking at what the glamour allows him to see.

Power play, it's a game, and it never, ever ends. Angel has hatched a plan that almost guarantee's everyone's death. Drogyn and even Illyria may be down and the last battle has hardly begun. Angel is right, power endures, but heroes always surface from the population to fight for everyone. Most often heroes die. Come to think of it, no matter how long humantiy has been here, there have been Ants...hmmmmmm.

Replies:

[> Re: High Hopes......spoilers for Angel 5.21 "Power Play" -- Alistair, 21:10:46 05/14/04 Fri

I think that that final scene in Power Play was all we needed to see of the true role of the Angel team. They are willing to scrifice their lives, the potential to fight any small evil, to take out the big guns, even if its just for an instant. They know that there are other beings which will become the New Black Thorn. They know that unless they get massive fire power and transdimensional momentum, they will never be able to take on the Senior Partners, just like Buffy will never take on the First Evil. These enemies are so big that Earth is just another random world for them to take over. Angel may finally see his role in the championship for the Powers that be. His role wasn't to take out the SP, but to make this last stand for the side of good. Even though it is meaningless and will accomplish nothing in the long run, it means that he is still fighting, and is willing to accept his death. He knows that his team will back him up no matter what and that's all that matters.

[> Re: High Hopes......spoilers for Angel 5.21 "Power Play" -- anom, 21:37:50 05/17/04 Mon

Good song choice, Rufus! Well, maybe I just think that 'cause I see it as supporting my position: that continuous small-scale effort is at least as important as single big blaze-o'-glory power plays, & may actually accomplish more.

"Lorne: Oh, that doesn't make a lick of sense. I mean, why would Angel want to spring an Old One?
Drogyn: I don't think that was the point.
Gunn: Then what was?
Drogyn: Before he died, the assassin said something about a sacrifice...someone trusted and dear.
Wes: Are you saying that Angel was responsible for what happened to Fred?
Drogyn: He may not have chosen her specifically but..."

Y'know, seeing this again, it strikes me that if the point was to sacrifice someone, releasing an Old One was a helluva roundabout, uncertain, dangerous, & stupid way to do it. There might not have been people at W&H (or elsewhere) who wanted to see Illyria brought back & knew how, & something as simple as a Customs holdup could have kept it from happening. And would sacrificing "someone trusted and dear" really cut more ice w/the Black Thorn than sacrificing thousands of other people? Would either the Black Thorn or the Senior Partners have appreciated Illyria's return, when it seemed entirely possible that her army was still there? We learned last week that the SPs are not happy she's around even w/no army & reduced power. I dunno, maybe the lower plane isn't privy to all of the higher plane's concerns--the Black Thorn may have been impressed that Angel was apparently willing to risk Illyria's taking over, not realizing the SPs had a problem w/the Old Ones. But it sure doesn't sound like greasing the wheels of the slow apocalypse.

"Angel: Do I really have to explain this to you people? We're in the business of business. Oil, software, worldwide wickets...the product doesn't matter, it's the game that matters...get to the top...be the best... have the most - win.
Wes: Win what?"

Hmm...that doesn't sound like the Holland Manners who said W&H had no interest in anything as prosaic as winning.

"One thing I noticed was when Angel slams the double doors of the CEO's office he is just like Illona in Rome...."

Yeah, I thought of that too! Very diff't. from last week, when 2 heroes w/vampire strength were reduced to knocking (!) ineffectually at that door, protesting to--who? Wolfram e Hart employees passing by? us in the audience?--that they're champions.

"Wes: That's why you came back to LA., tried to kill Angel, to get into the Circle.
Lindsey: To be a Black Thorne is to be the Senior Partners instrument on Earth, doesn't get bigger than that."

Is this really what Lindsey wanted? To be "the Senior Partners' instrument"? I certainly didn't get that impression at any point in the season. So are we any more sure than before what side Lindsey is on?

"One has to wonder in a war between Good and Evil where each side will torture the other, who has the higher moral ground? Is torture ok only if you are the winner? I guess a necessary evil?"

Yeah, one does. I've been bothered by the portrayal of torture during this season. Letting Harmony torture Eve because technically, she's still evil (played for a laugh, yet); having Spike, soul & all, show up w/bloody hands from torturing the doctor involved in Illyria's return & getting nothing but "screams & various body fluids" (w/no comment from anyone--guess it's OK, 'cause they all loved Fred); & now telling us "a person as good and as pure as Drogyn" thinks it's fine to torture someone, even an assassin--& that Angel knowingly set someone up to be tortured. I guess if the writers set the victims up as evil, it's OK to torture them, at least if you're the good guys.

"I don't know if they will revisit the 'death' of Drogyn (remember he has eternal youth), or will it just be what it is, a small part of a larger battle, a means to an end?"

Or is this means-to-an-end attitude where you end up once you define torture as acceptable?

On a less emotional point, does "eternal youth" necessarily imply immortality? Drogyn may not age, may always have youthful strength & resistance to disease, but does that mean he can't die by violence or accident? Does it mean he's immortal, or just that even at >1,000 years of age, he'll still die young?

And I want to say here that I'm glad they brought back the "playing handball w/the devil" idea from You're Welcome. 'Cause I want to end w/this:

There's an interesting echo of Buffy's season 7 here:

"Lindsey: Sure, but evil's not the point. Power is."
"Angel: There is one thing in this business, in this apocalypse that we call the world that matters...power."

So, as we heard at the beginning & end of Lessons, "it's about power"? Well, that didn't turn out the way it sounded; let's see if it does in this series finale.

[> [> Re: High Hopes......spoilers for Angel 5.21 "Power Play" -- Rufus, 19:14:38 05/18/04 Tue

Now a slight disagreement with the following...

Hmm...that doesn't sound like the Holland Manners who said W&H had no interest in anything as prosaic as winning.

When Holland spoke to Angel in season 2, he was talking about all the stuff before the apocalypse. That they want to win and getting all the people they can onside, doing all the dirty dealing to ensure their win, is exactly what Holland was about. Holland understood that a few losses would happen on the way to the final battle, but once that final one starts, it's all about who wins it.

Now, I wonder if he had what it took to be a Black Thorne, cause somehow I wonder about that one given the composition of the existing circle.

So, as we heard at the beginning & end of Lessons, "it's about power"? Well, that didn't turn out the way it sounded; let's see if it does in this series finale.

Both Buffy and Angel have power that they didn't quite understand til they were pushed into a corner or apocalypse. Power, it's about who has it and what they do with it. Power also can change when one side figures out a way to get the most of it. Now, what do you do when you have enough power to be the biggest fish in the tank?

Joss interview -- Dandy, 06:06:32 05/15/04 Sat

This was posted on ASSB, transcribed by Eddie. I thought you might find it interesting.

Date Posted: 19:19:55 05/14/04 Fri
Author: Eddy
Author Host/IP: cvg-65-27-153-155.cinci.rr.com / 65.27.153.155
Subject: Joss Whedon interview in EW that I just transcribed..*semi spoilerish*

Ok the article has a picture of Buffy decapitating the first Ubervamp, on one side and a Angel S4 promo shot of DB on the other side of this big X. Article name is "The X Factor". Top of the picture says "End of an era:Buffy and Angel slay goodbye" Ew. These mags always do bad wordplay.

In big white font "What's a writer to do when his three beloved TV shows - 'Buffy,' 'Angel,' and 'Firefly' - are off the air? If you're Joss Whedon, you move into movies and mess with Marvel's comic - book mutants.

by Jeff Jensen (transcribed by me,Eddy of course,if you copy it to somewhere then include that.)

Eighteen months ago, Joss Whedon had three TV series on the air. And now, he has none. In the cult-pop underground, where he is something of a wickedly big-brained deity, there is an anguished gnashing of fangs. While he promises a return to TV in the future, Whedon is preparing an expansion of his kingdom to two fronts. This month he begins a 12-issue stint as a writer of Marvel Comics' The Astonishing X-Men. The pairing of scribe and title is both fitting (X-Fan Whedon cites the mutant freedom-fighters as a formative Buffy the Vampire Slayer influence.) and ironic (Whedon wrote an unused draft of Bryan Singer's first X-Men movie). "Joss knows how to write an ensemble and has the aibility to nail a character with a sentence and a half," says Marvel editor in chief Joe Quesada. "He has some kind of black-voodoo writer magic."

Whedon will also make his film-directing debut with Serenity, a big-screen revival of Firefly(whose cancellation by Fox still irks him), due in 2005 from Universal. Whedon says it's been hard getting over the end of the Buffyverse, but he's ready for new challenges. "With both Serenity and X-Men, its gratifying to be walking in worlds I love, I am surrounded by old friends in new mediums. It doesn't get any more exciting than that." More from the Hellmouth's mouth...

EW:Does it feel like the end of an era?
JOSS WHEDON: It does! Somebody on the Internet - and it wasn't me - said this era of the Buffyverse, these eight years, were like Camelot. "One brief shining instant." I have to say, I did get a little choked up.

EW: Wish you had another season of Angel?
JW: I was really upset [When Angel got canceled]. When we hit 100 episodes, we felt we had made a stand. I felt we had hit [our stride] in our fifth year - and then we got cut down. With Buffy, I was ready to end. Firefly - I went into such a state of denial, it caused a film. But with Angel, it was like "Healthy Guy Falls Dead From Heart Attack." I believe the reason Angel had trouble on The WB was that it was the only show on the network that wasn't trying to be Buffy. It was a show about grown-ups.

EW: Why didn't Sarah Michelle Gellar appear in the final Angel?
JW: We wanted her earlier in the season; she declined. When we realized it was going to be our last season, we made some inquiries about her appearing on one of the shows before the finale. But she was only available for the last one, and I didn't want her in the last one - in part, because when she wasn't available earlier, we did an episode all about her. [The story] is something that occurred to me based on what was going on [while trying to get Sarah], which was: Well, she has clearly moved on. Maybe we should too.

EW: There's been talk of Buffy or Angel TV movies. True?
JW: The WB mentioned the idea. At first I thought an Angel TV movie feels like electrifying a corpse to see it twitch. But then again, I have these characters I love. Maybe a series of movies, focusing on a different aspect of the Buffyverse, would be fun. But I don't know if there's a market for what I'm proposing. The marketplace is just so bi-zarre right now.

EW: Bizarre?
JW: The reality television thing. I've definitely been the guy in Singin' in the Rain who's like, "Talking pictures - it's just a fad!" The face of the marketplace is changing; none of the networks are doing that well, and they're all scrambling. ABC is kind of falling apart, NBC and CBS are entrenched, my history with Fox [as a network] is...not great. The WB basically said, We have to do more reality, we don't have room for Angel - this, when Angel had always done well, and was doing better...I'm not sure what else I needed to do! Thats the question we [TV producers] are constantly asking: What do they want? The thing is, they don't know what they want. There's no one with vision. There's no commitment to developing good, quality shows. Even though Fox invested millions of dollars into Firefly they ultimately didn't believe in it. They scheduled it in the death slot [Friday] and let it die.

EW: So they invested millions in a show they didn't like, just to kill it? Why would they do that?
JW: [Bewildered] Because Fox is a bad network that makes bad decisions. [ While The WB would not comment, a Fox spokesperson said: "We wish Firefly had found an audience, and we would like nothing better than to be in business with Joss again."]

EW:About Serenity: There were rumors you were asked to make some changes to your screenplay to accommodate Universal's vision for franchising. True?
JW: Absolute nonsense. You're seeing alot of movies that are built to be a springboard for a franchise. Like Underworld. Well, I'm saying maybe you should take a long hard look at your f---ing movie before you worry about your franchise. Obviously, Universersal does see this as a potential franchise-springboard marketing vehicle. But none of that matters unless I make a movie that not only people who loved Firefly will respect, but people who never heard of it can walk in and have a wonderful time.

EW: Are you losing any cast members?
JW: Every. Single. Member. Of. The. TV. Show. Is. Back. I wouldn't have done it without everybody.

EW: Do you want to concentrate more on making features?
JW: I've spent my whole life waiting to make films. At the same time, I have a love for TV that is different. TV does a thing that film can never do. It takes you to a place that no novel written after the late 19th century can. You can just go through people's lives; it's like a marriage. I love both. I want to do both.

EW: And you want to do comics. You're making The X-men an old fashioned superhero comic again - even putting them back in their colorful costumes.
JW: The thinking behind that was Marvel saying, "Can you put them back in their costumes?" and me saying, "Okay."

EW: For a corporate mandate, you sell it well. Your first issue made me wonder if you feel recent comics have gone too far in deconstructing superheroes.
JW: We really have deconstructed it. One of the things I like about the X-Men is they're not killing people. I miss the idea of...heroes who stop that kind of thing from happening. Here's why I'm not running Marvel: If I was, I would kill the Punisher. I don't believe in what he does. The Punisher just shoots up places. And if you're telling me he's never hit an innocent, then I'm telling you, that's fascist crap. Which is not to say I won't kill anybody. I mean, it's me. If I didn't kill people, well, gosh, I would feel all ooky inside.

Beside the picture of Joss in a leather coat,grey shirt,and blue jeans theres a box that says "HITS O'WHEDON".

FAVORITE SEASONS:
Buffy Season 2. Buffy has sex with Angel. Angel turns evil. "It's the first time we went 'Oh my God. Look what we can do.'" Runner-up:Season 5. It starts with the arrival of Buffy's mysterious sister. It ends with Buffy dead.

Angel Season 3. The show finds its legs with the official addition of Fred(Amy Acker) and a story line that saw Angel get a son... who tries to kill him. Runner-up:Season 5, or "the last season" Whedon particularly enjoyed the Angel-Spike relationship. "Spike is the greatest ingenue Angel ever had."

ANY SPIN-OFFS IN THE WORKS?
At present, theres only one: an animated Buffy, filled with "all the things we couldn't afford, and all the jokes that were much too silly."

ANY CHANCE ANGEL WILL END ON A CLIFF-HANGER?
"I wouldn't do that. That's a crappy thing to do. [But] the last thing you will see of Angel is the last thing you should see. Angel is about redemption, and redemption is ongoing."

Replies:

[> He's so...blunt! -- BrianWilly, 19:18:35 05/15/04 Sat

That's why we love the puddy-fisted man of course, but reading that interview...I'm a little worried about him making a lot of enemies with his statements --

"Oh, like you weren't all thinking the same thing." -Anya

-- despite the fact that they're probably all true. It's just that...well, make too many people angry at you, or get a rep as the guy who'll actually tell the truth about how crappy networks can be, and who knows how many people there are left who will distribute your shows? I'm not wishing that he would kiss arse or tell lies...I just don't want him to to obliterate all chances of ever having another Whedon show onair.

[> [> Ooh, and thanks for posting. -- BrianWilly, 19:21:28 05/15/04 Sat

[> i agree w/him about comics heroes -- anom, 22:27:06 05/15/04 Sat

Can't wait for his X-Men comic! I think the folks at Forbidden Planet are getting tired of me showing up every week asking "Is it here yet?" @>)

[> ***FINALE SPOILERS*** -- KdS, 02:20:15 05/16/04 Sun

One suspects the final question and answer is in reference to the 5:22 spoilers that came out a few weeks back and shocked everyone. Maybe this means they were fake, but this is the man who pissed off everyone in BtVS6 by furiously denying spoilers that Tara would be killed off when they were entirely correct...

[> [> To clarify, spoilers in my post, not the original one of the thread ;-) -- KdS, 09:24:35 05/16/04 Sun

[> [> Re: ***FINALE SPOILERS*** -- Old One, 10:14:13 05/16/04 Sun

Yep, I'm thinkin' Joss is yanking our chains in this interview a bit.

I've read a detailed, reputable summary of the final episode, and there ain't no way that's NOT a cliffhanger ending, IMO.

Of course, I'll be delighted in the summary turns out to be a foiler, and something completely different happens, but I'm not counting on it.

;o)

[> [> [> It was probably correct, but I don't agree. -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:42:18 05/19/04 Wed

You could read it as a cliffhanger, but I didn't feel that way, as we were left in little doubt what the final outcome of the pending battle would be.

An odd choice...**Spoiler** for title of Angel Finale (title ONLY) -- Old One, 20:53:40 05/15/04 Sat

I think most of us already know that the final episode is called Not Fade Away, but I put up the spoiler warning, just in case.

Okay, I am an Old One, but that title means only one thing to me--it's a Buddy Holly song:

Not Fade Away (Norman Petty/Charles Hardin)

I wanna tell you how it's gonna be
You're gonna give your love to me
I'm gonna love you night and day
Love is love and not fade away
Well love is love and not fade away
And my love is bigger than a Cadillac
I'll try to show it if you drive me back

Your love for me has got to be real
Before you'd have noticed how I feel
Love real not fade away
Well love real not fade away
Yeah

I wanna tell you how it's gonna be
You're gonna give your love to me
Love that lasts more than one day
Well love is love and not fade away
Well love is love and not fade away
Well love is love and not fade away
Well love is love and not fade away
Not fade away
Not fade away
Seems a bit...strange, doesn't it?

:o)

Replies:

[> I don't know... (Finale Title Spoiler) -- Rob, 21:41:47 05/15/04 Sat

....the song, but from what David Boreanaz said in a commercial, the title came from a Grateful Dead song. Anybody know if this is a different song or if the Dead just did a cover of this one?

Rob

[> [> Oof! -- Rob, 21:42:53 05/15/04 Sat

What David Boreanaz said in an interview, not a commercial.

Rob

[> [> Buddy Holly, by way of The Dead -- Vickie, 22:21:43 05/15/04 Sat

Apparently, it's a Buddy Holly song that the Dead covered.

http://www.deaddisc.com/songs/Not_Fade_Away.htm

Probably most um, less eperienced folks would think of it as a Dead song.

[> [> [> I'm most familiar with it as a Rolling Stones song -- KdS, 02:18:14 05/16/04 Sun

[> [> [> Well, it would fit *this* show more if it were considered a Dead song. ;-) -- Rob, 08:14:43 05/16/04 Sun

[> [> [> [> Ah gee, help me out here -- Fenugreek, 09:03:08 05/16/04 Sun

I have not been taping Angel recently so I can't go back and confirm... But I swear Angel and Spike had a conversation in a recent ep (TGIQ perhaps, or maybe Power Play) about how it is better to burn out than to fade away. If my memory serves me correctly (and it may not) and that conversation did indeed happen, then that is a direct reference to a Neil Young song from the late 70s titled Out of the Blue (Into the Black). One of the lyrics is "It's better to burn out than to fade away / When you're out of the blue and into the black." He was later reported to have explained that as meaning it is better to go out in a blaze of glory (Buddy Holly) than to just waste away (Elvis). Would that not be a fitting theme for an Angel series finale?

[> [> [> "Less experienced..." LOLOLOL!! -- dub, 10:09:01 05/16/04 Sun

[> I dunno - seems about perfect to me. -- OnM, 07:12:24 05/16/04 Sun

Shakespeare, Wild Bunch, Buddy Holly-- sounds like classic Joss. What's not to love?

;-)

[> [> OnM, can you drop me a line? -- The Sidereal Coder, 09:21:35 05/16/04 Sun

I've got some CMotW pretty much ready to be posted but wanted to check with you about some stuff.

[> [> [> Sure-- off to work now, but I'll mail you tonight. -- OnM, 05:48:46 05/17/04 Mon

"Surprise! Real Jolts are Found in Docs" from the Globe and Mail (Joss quote) -- Rufus, 23:08:42 05/15/04 Sat

www.theglobeandmail.com

I just had to bring this article over here. This is a time where a story will seem to end but what are our expectations? If we don't get exactly what we want does the show in total, suck? Have a read.

Surprise! Real jolts are found in docs

By JOHANNA SCHNELLER
Friday, May 14, 2004

In an article in last Sunday's New York Times lamenting that television insiders are posting TV plot spoilers on the Internet, I came across an idea that stuck with me. Joss Whedon, the creator of the series Buffy the Vampire Slayer, called surprise "a holy emotion. It makes you humble. It makes you small in the world, and takes you out of your own perspective. It shows you that you're wrong, the world is bigger and more complicated than you'd imagined." He was talking about television, but I think he's also onto something true about today's Hollywood films.

When was the last time a mainstream American movie took a turn that really floored you? Had an unexpected unhappy ending, found a plot twist you didn't see coming from miles away, put the protagonists in a position you didn't anticipate? Independent movies, such as The Saddest Music in the World, still do this (you rarely know where you are in director Guy Maddin's world, which is the glory of it). But Hollywood movies used to, too. I didn't see Faye Dunaway's revelation (or her fate) coming in Chinatown, for example, and that film was as studio-made as they get.

Nowadays, however, every story point is plotted on a time graph to coincide with the average audience member's biorhythms (well, practically), every explosion is timed to detonate at 15-minute intervals, and every ending is safe. Did anyone think that Lindsay Lohan would stay plastic in Mean Girls, that the Rock wouldn't walk tall in Walking Tall, or that Julianne Moore would leave Pierce Brosnan in Laws of Attraction (which could have been called Formulas of Screenwriting)?

Long before you see them, mainstream Hollywood movies have been tested and re-tested, cut and re-cut, to fit a mythical Averageperson's expectations -- because God forbid Average should leave the theatre not feeling soothed and smart. I mean, what if he told two friends that the movie was (horrors) unpredictable? Maybe those two friends wouldn't go, and the $622 that two tickets now cost would go unearned by a major corporation.

I don't know who this Averageperson is, or why anyone started thinking that every picture should be made for a lowest-common-denominator Everyone.

I only know that, when I want to be surprised at the movies these days, I go to documentaries.

Even though they're shot and edited with a point of view, documentaries are fast becoming the only place you can see anything remotely like real human behaviour, with all its surprises; and they're the only films that haven't been ironed out in advance, washed free of jarring colours and shrink-wrapped for your protection. Documentary filmmakers go to places with an idea of what might happen, and a hope that something different will happen. Do you think that Nathaniel Kahn, the illegitimate son of the architect Louis Kahn and the filmmaker of the 2003 Oscar-nominated documentary My Architect, planned that he would be put gently in his place by a kindly scholar when he went to Bangladesh to view the capitol building that his father had spent far more time thinking about than he had about his kid? In the beginning of the doc, Nathaniel alleges that he's making the film to "find" his absent father; in the middle, he reveals that he's exorcising his anger against his father's indifference; and by the end, he has become profoundly moved by his father's gifts to the world and chagrined at his own small agenda. Now that's character development; that's an arc. You won't find that in Envy.

Filmmaker George Hickenlooper (who also made Hearts of Darkness, the doc about the filming of Apocalypse Now) knew he had on his hands an odd story about life on the fringes of fame and glamour when he set out to make his documentary Mayor of the Sunset Strip about L.A. disc jockey Rodney Bingenheimer. His subject, a gnome-like groupie so timid he makes Andy Warhol look energetic, has spent the past 30 years quietly finding and promoting new acts -- everyone from The Ramones, Blondie and David Bowie through Hole, Oasis and Coldplay -- solely because he likes music and hanging with musicians.

Hickenlooper knew that Bingenheimer's mom had abandoned him when he was 15 (literally, she dropped him on the doorstep of Connie Stevens's house -- because he was a fan of hers -- and drove away, not to be seen again for five years. Stevens wasn't home); that he was a stand-in for Davy Jones in The Monkees TV show; and that he possessed a vast collection of photos of himself standing near every musician who has ever passed through L.A. But he could not have known that the first thing out of Bingenheimer's childhood neighbour's mouth, upon being shown a photo of him standing next to Marisa Tomei on the night she won her Oscar, would be a disbelieving: "You were invited?"

He could not have known that Bingenheimer's dad (whose first name is, thrillingly, Bing) would have a house full of photos -- and two paintings of sad clowns, by the way -- but only a single snap of Rodney, posing with the Easter Bunny at about age 4. He may have known that the briefly trendy nightclub that Bingenheimer ran in the 1970s has become a karate studio, but he could not have known just how lonely Bingenheimer would look dropping his mother's ashes off a London pleasure boat among strangers, or how poignantly his life-long ache for love would register when he said that Sonny and Cher, with whom he used to pal around, "were like a mom and dad to me."

Even documentaries with a rigid agenda, such as Morgan Spurlock's Super Size Me (message: McDonald's food makes you fat) and Ron Mann's Go Further (message: try, as actor/activist Woody Harrelson urges, to tread more lightly upon the Earth), can be full of surprises.

Spurlock did not expect to find a Texan who eats two to three Big Macs a day, but when he stumbled upon him, he put him in the film. (Tex's lifetime tally, by the way, is 19,000 Big Macs. He keeps track.) I did not expect Spurlock to barf his first Supersized Double-Quarter-Pounder-with-Cheese meal out his car window -- or to pan over for a good long shot of the puke. So we were both surprised.

Nor could I have imagined the look on Harrelson's face when a junk-food-junkie buddy, upon hearing Harrelson preach that milk is full of blood and pus from the sore udders of overstimulated cows, asks: "But not vanilla milkshakes, right dude?" And I have thought more about why raw-food chefs, such as Harrelson's, are compelled to say things like: "Eating outside is more joyful" (and pondered if that's reason enough to never go on a raw-food diet) than I've thought about the entire 180 minutes of The Alamo.

My writer husband is fond of saying, "There are two kinds of stories: the kind you know you want to know [the news, etc.], and the kind you don't know you want to know." I prefer movies to be the latter. When every moment is telegraphed, when you don't even care that the trailer gives away the best parts of the plot because the plot is so predictable, I don't feel smarter or safer or soothed, I feel deadened. Take me out of my narrow perspective, make me feel small in the world, give me that holy surprise. Let me see -- and feel -- something real. Even if it's a real mess.

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[> Oppps forgot to mention.....no spoilers above for Angel -- Rufus, 23:09:55 05/15/04 Sat

[> The Sixth Sense -- skeeve, 08:33:18 05/19/04 Wed

[> Kill Bill (1 and 2), Van Helsing, The Matrix: Reloaded, Scary Movie 3 -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:44:14 05/20/04 Thu

The Jossverse, Literature and Destiny -- Chani, 06:11:48 05/16/04 Sun

It's almost over and we don't know whether we'll get another piece of the Jossverse or not. It has been great and we are all fans here. I still think that BTVS was the best thing I've seen on tv ever. Will the ending of Ats satisfy us?
I've been thinking for a few days of all our frustrations, all our complaints and disappointments. The Jossverse didn't always fulfil our expectations either as shippers or as simple fans. We have made many speculations that never came out on screen, or seen foreshadowing clues that have never been followed, and we have all noticed lost arcs. Some of us may have thought that ME failed to address certain issues, a few of us even have disagreed with the path that has been taken. Bitterness, anger and sorrow ensued. How many of us have been hurt by the AR for instance?

I'm reading a book by Umberto Eco, About literature, and the first chapter is an essay on the functions of literature. That made me think of the Jossverse, and I wanted to share an extract with you...Of course a show isn't a book, there's an interection between the viewers and the writers through ratings, letters, boards...This connection may influence the writing and the way the story makes progress.
Umberto's point is that literature is an education to destiny and death. Sorry I know my translation sucks but I did my best!

Jurij Lotman, in "Culture and explosion" uses the famous recommendation made by Tchekov, according to which if a shotgun is shown being hung on the wall at the beginning, this shot gun will have to fire by the end. Lotman helps us understand that the real matter isn't to know if the shotgun will fire. It's precisely not knowing whether the shotgun will fire or not that gives its meaning to the plot. To read a tale also means to be caught in tension, in a spasm. To find out, in the end, that the shotgun didn't fire, or not to, hasn't only the value of an information. It's finding out that things evolve, and for ever, in a way, beyond the reader's expectations. The reader has to accept this frustration, and through it, to feel the shiver of Destiny. If we could decide the destiny of the characters, it would be like going to a travel agency: "So where do you want the whale to be? Either in Samoas or in Aeoutiennes? And when? Do you want to kill it yourself, or do let Quiqueg do it? The true lesson of Mody Dick is that the whale goes where it wants.

Chani

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[> Thank you for this, Chani -- Old One, 16:49:43 05/16/04 Sun

I know I used a similar example just recently, saying that if you set a story on a battleship, it sure as heck better be engaged in a battle by the end of the story. This points out that maybe I was wrong about that...

;o)

[> [> Re: Thank you for this, Chani -- CW, 18:31:49 05/16/04 Sun

Battleship? What battleship? (blush) Oh, yeah... There's a battle in there somewhere, I promise...

Sorry, private joke between Old One and I. ;o)

The point is that there needs to be a reason there is no battle, if there is none and it feels like there should be one. That reason is then the same structurally, as having the battle after all. Confusing, but true. (And yes, you were correct to keep wondering when the darn battle would begin. There was no good reason in the story for it to end otherwise.)

[> [> [> LOL -- ;o), 19:26:43 05/16/04 Sun

[> More great quotes! -- OnM, 06:36:39 05/19/04 Wed

*** The reader has to accept this frustration, and through it, feel the shiver of Destiny. ***

Maybe the reason that I've personally never had all that much trouble with the various unanswered plot points, 'continuity errors' and whatnot over the course of the shows is that I've always pretty much regarded epic 'literature' such as this to be an evolving thing, and not some done deal to be neatly wrapped up at the end of a season, or even the supposed end of the series. Eco's statement sums that feeling up rather eloquently.

*** The true lesson of Moby Dick is that the whale goes where it wants. ***

And that quote's definitely a board-topper!

:-)

emmy for amy -- Nino, 09:41:39 05/16/04 Sun

I was wondering what could be done on our part to campagin for an emmy for Amy Acker. I know a few years back some fans took out a page in Variety for "The Body" (which still didn't get nominated). I'm not looking for anything that intense, but the Save Angel campaign made me feel like our voices can be heard. Are there key Emmy voters that we could send a few postcards too, or anything like that?

I know a lot of the fans don't care about the Emmys and don't worry themselves over whether our shows get any attention, but I feel like season 5 has definitly been "Angel"'s finest, and ranks with the best of "Buffy." Acker's performace as Fred and Illyria has blown me away, and I'd like to show my support of her and the show one final time.

Any way we can get Amy's name out there?

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[> Re: emmy for amy -- skpe, 16:26:40 05/16/04 Sun

I agree she should get one but joss shows are not rewarded no mater how good, (I am beginning to think it is personal maybe JW ran over some ones dog)

My analysis of "Power Play" is up -- Masquerade, 10:36:51 05/16/04 Sun

I really envy people like shadowkat who can be deep and eloquent about an episode two hours after it airs. I have to take days of careful frame-by-frame study before I can even understand what happened, much less wax philosophical about it.

And I must say, this episode rivals the penultimate episode of season 4 for philosophical richness. It takes you on a friggin' trip down philosophy lane--5 years of "Angel" philosophy:

"Power Play"

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[> But nobody is saying "yay!" -- Vickie, 20:46:59 05/17/04 Mon

Could it be because there's a problem with the ATPo* server?

I caught this before the technical mayhem. I love it. Keeping the thread alive.

[> [> *Oy* -- Masq, 05:09:30 05/18/04 Tue

I only discovered the access problems with ATPo yesterday. Sent a message to Liq.

In the meantime, people can access the analysis at

http://www.geocities.com/masqthephlsphr/a54.html#521

Am I crazy? (kinda ranty) -- Traveler, 20:18:59 05/16/04 Sun

This is the first "Buffy" related board I ever posted on, and I have developed a lot of respect for the people who post here. You are all intelligent, articulate, and thoughtful. Please give me your opinions to what I'm doing.

After looking at the responses I received to my "how much would you pay for 'Angel?'" thread, I felt a surge of confidence that maybe we COULD get another season of "Angel" or some kind of spin-off if we just focused our efforts. I wrote a letter to the WB outlining my ideas and I started trying to enlist people to help me. First, I emailed the webmasters of "Angel" related boards and asked their help getting the message out. What little response I got was not terribly useful. One person simply told me to go to savingangel.org while another said it was a great idea but needed someone to get the ball rolling. When I replied that I was getting the ball rolling, but I needed help... no response. So, since it seemed like I wasn't going to receive help from the webmasters, I tried to take the message to the people. First, I posted a plea for help here, which received 0 responses. Then I posted my letter to WB at savingangel.org and asked for help in putting together a task force. So far, exactly two people have offered to help.

I'm completely at a loss. At least six people on this board and several people on other boards have commented that they would pay $200 or more for another season, but not one of those people is actually willing to do anything to keep "Angel" on the air? But no, that's not true either. There are fans out there right now all over the world sending out mass postcards. People have hired airplanes and thrown fundraisers just to raise awareness. I would just assume that people didn't like my plan, except for the fact that I've gotten far more positive responses to it so far than negative ones.

Why is it so hard gather interest in communities that I know care about the show as much as I do? Why is it so hard to unify people behind my strategy? I know that Joss asked fans to "make noise," but that seems to be all that they are capable of. When I ask them to do something, I get silence. I'm sorry if I seem bitter, but it's extremely frustrating, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm just crazy. Maybe it was foolish to believe that I could motivate people to act. Maybe it was only a pipe dream, a kind of arrogance to think I could start a movement or raise millions of dollars. I want to believe that it's possible, but its hard not to think you're crazy when you feel like you're only talking to yourself.

If I'm going about things in the wrong way, or looking in the wrong places, I'd love for someone to tell me. Because right now, I feel very much like I'm fumbling around in the dark, and I'm starting to lose heart.

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[> Re: Am I crazy? (kinda ranty) -- Nino, 20:30:46 05/16/04 Sun

I'm confused...are you talking about your suggestion that every "Angel" fan give $20?

Did I miss another post?

(Without really being sure what your plan is, I would still say that any reluctance is due to the fact that cast and crew have accepted the show's fate and appear to be moving on...it is rather late in the game for a new plan...i think.)

[> Re: Am I crazy? (kinda ranty) -- Genivive, 03:28:51 05/17/04 Mon

David Boreanez has already said he won't do another season or a TV movie. That pretty much is the end of that. Now a Spike movie is a possibility

[> Knowing when to quit, and what to do now -- Ames, 07:23:29 05/17/04 Mon

We all want to support the things we believe in, but we have to use good judgement about where to spend our time, effort and money, because we only have a limited amount to go around. We look for things where our small individual contribution just might make a real difference. Saving Angel was one one of those things, but it's over. There was a moment when it sounded like things were close enough that the fans might really influence it, so we tried. I applaud everyone who tried, including especially those who organized the effort. We didn't save the show, but we just might have created enough buzz to get some sort of future follow-on. And we know that we gave it a good effort, we didn't just let it go without a fight.

I think that what would make the most difference now is:

1. Buy the DVDs, books, and merchandise. That sends a strong economic message, which is what really counts the most.

2. Contribute to keeping up activity on the internet (like this board) and at conventions. Keep it a visible part of popular culture and keep it in the news.

3. Keep up the supportive message traffic to people who could be involved in future productions, i.e. Joss et al (I don't count the actors here, because for the most part they are not key influencers and they're not essential)

Any other thoughts?

[> [> Check out my post to Mr.Subjunctive to see what I AM doing -- Traveler, 11:29:32 05/18/04 Tue

[> I don't want to get you down and -- Chani, 10:29:28 05/17/04 Mon

I understand your frustation but you cannot save Angel without Angel himself and David Boreanaz isn't interested in going on with this character. He has been clear about that. It's a lost cause...

But a new Buffyverse show or tv movie could happen, so maybe we should take this aim for our efforts.

[> Fumbling towards adequacy (w/ apolg. to Sarah McLauchlin) -- OnM, 18:27:03 05/17/04 Mon

*** If I'm going about things in the wrong way, or looking in the wrong places, I'd love for someone to tell me. Because right now, I feel very much like I'm fumbling around in the dark, and I'm starting to lose heart. ***

Not at all. It was a fine idea, but it would have needed to get started several months ago, minimum. Since the announcement of the cancellation came a relatively short time before the season's ending, it was actually pretty amazing that fans managed to get done what they did.

It's one thing to send cards and letters to the network and other people in the trade, but raising 'real' money is tough for pretty much any endeavor, and the current political/social factors in play don't make this task any easier-- the realverse will always end up taking precedence, no matter how worthy a piece of art is. Just look at the dilemma posed by public TV and radio-- they are always in a state of constant begging these days, and it isn't like the people who watch or listen don't try to support the network.

Keep the ideas coming, though-- someday the time will be right, and maybe then you can get a more positive response. "Not Fade Away", remember?

We won't.

[> 2 factors -- anom, 19:04:55 05/17/04 Mon

First, your original thread specified that it was a hypothetical question, & it's a lot easier to spend money hypothetically than for real. Second, I think people would be more willing to spend their money if they really believed it would bring Angel back. Most people are less willing to give up money they need for other things when they strongly doubt it would do any good--and, for reasons others have pointed out, there's plenty of reason to doubt it would.

[> [> For 2 answers, see my posts to Mr.Subjunctive and s'kat -- Traveler, 11:34:44 05/18/04 Tue

[> Well no, not crazy, -- mrsubjunctive, 20:42:45 05/17/04 Mon

Okay, so I said I wouldn't participate, but this doesn't mean I necessarily thought it was a bad idea. Given a longer timeframe and a willing star, it might have worked out. Hell, the star might not even be entirely necessary: I'd have watched a spin-off centered on Wesley, or Lorne, or (maybe) Illyria, or (especially) Gunn.

But, one more thing to add to what people have been saying already: I think the plan suffers mainly from not enough time, like OnM said, and secondarily from a critical mass problem. I figure people who said they'd give $X for a guaranteed next season were telling the truth, but without a guarantee, the amount drops an awful lot. I'm not sure where the tipping point would be, exactly, but I figure there's some raised-dollar amount where people would start to think, hey, there's some chance of this actually happening, and they'd be willing to contribute more. I think this is why the postcard thing, apparently, got some momentum behind it: people knew other people were doing it, and the investment was not necessarily huge.

For something like this to have worked, though, it seems like you'd need a big funder to begin with, or someone to match donations. Particularly given the scale of a TV series budget. You'd need to be able to demonstrate to people that money was really being raised. (The PBS pledge system might work: don't actually have to have the money in hand, but have commitments from people. Also, tote bags or coffee mugs are also helpful, as the PBS people have discovered. People are more inclined to give when they get something back, even if what they get back is nowhere near the value of what they've given.)

You'd also need to be able to assure people that they weren't giving you large sums of money for nothing. Which I don't know how you'd do that, exactly, over the net like this, with everybody being somewhat mutually anonymous. The only thing that occurs to me is you could ask for pledges but say that you won't try to collect them unless you reach a certain total dollar amount. Though it'd be tough to hold people to this, too.

But instead, here we are. We have an episode left to watch, and the discussion will go on for days afterward. Which may not be much consolation, granted. But it's something. And there will, at some point, almost certainly be another Joss show, maybe even one on a network that's not run by fucktards. If any such networks exist.

I appreciate the frustration, though I don't know that there's much I or anybody else can say to help. It's not your fault: you didn't get "Angel" cancelled (or did you?*), nor was it up to you to get it saved. We are all, I assume, frustrated to one degree or another too. But it's not quite the end of the 'verse: if the "Angel" movies wind up happening, or the write-your-own S6 gets rolling, or both, you won't necessarily have to say good-bye to the characters.

Sorry I can't say anything more helpful than this.

*(a joke)

[> [> (R-Rated) Quote of the Week! -- Rob, 21:13:27 05/17/04 Mon

And there will, at some point, almost certainly be another Joss show, maybe even one on a network that's not run by fucktards. If any such networks exist. ;-)

Amen!

Rob

[> [> [> Re: (R-Rated) Quote of the Week! -- phoenix, 01:31:27 05/18/04 Tue

Amen! Indeed.

[> [> Updates and explanations -- Traveler, 10:54:38 05/18/04 Tue

I've actually confused a lot of people about the main thrust of what I'm trying to do, so let me clarify. When I say that I'm trying to save "Angel," I mean the show itself, not any one character. After I read the interview in which DB said he didn't want to do another season or TV movie, I immediately started the creation of a website dedicated to the creation of a Spike based spin-off.

As for "guaranteeing" another season, I'm going to do a pledge based system, and I won't even start that until I get a concrete number from one of the networks. My current strategy is just to raise awareness and get people to consider it as a real possibility.

When it is time to collect donations, I will have both the recognition of at least one network, Joss Whedon's personal blessing, and the support of saveangel.org. Believe me, I'm not going to ask a bunch of people to send me money just on my say so.

[> Business of TV - dollars and cents -- s'kat, 06:18:55 05/18/04 Tue

I'm sorry Traveler, but even if you could get 60% of the Angel fans to donate at least 50 dollars, you're plan still would not work. Why? (Which is unlikely since there's quite a few of us who are broke and trying to make ends meet and just want to get a job. )

First off - WB is not producing Angel, so you aren't paying the production fee, that's Fox Production and ME and Kuzuiis. WB is licensing Angel - they are paying 1.8 million an episode (not a year, an *episode*) to air Angel on their network. They get that money back through advertising dollars. A 30 second ad on a top rated program can bring in close to 3 million dollars for a network.
So next time a TV show airs, start counting the number of ads. Then try to guess how much ad time cost. It varies depending on the show, the time-slot, the network. And the network execs get bonuses and their departments get bonsues based on how many viewers watch their programs and how much ad space they sell.

The set-up is *not* like PBS or public access channels or even HBO or Showtime, where viewers pay a subscription, or
you have a pledge drive, or a huge multimillion dollar corporation funding you. Broadcast TV is based on advertising dollars - that's where they get their money.

Okay let's put this into perspective moneywise:

1. Amber Benson's Chance is considered on the cheap end of the indi movie spectrum, never made the rounds. She got that made for close to 50,000 I believe. Raised the money through the internet and bake sales, filmed it, directed it, produced and starred in it herself. Also all her actors waived their fees. As did her crew.

That is *not* going to happen with a TV series.

2. Angel the Series has a licensing fee of 1.8 million, BTVS after 5 years went up to 2.3 million per episode.

3. SavingAngel.org raised approximately 50,000 in their campaign. That is *nothing* in television. It would be barely enough to pay a guest star or a director of one episode. It seems like a lot to us, but this is an industry that throws around millions of dollars.

Also, in order to feel like they are spending their money wisely - advertisers must feel that at least 1-3 million people are watching the show in the US demo. Not 450,000
fans worldwide. I know it's terribly frustrating. But,
that's how the business works and how it has worked since it was created.

[> [> Check your math -- Traveler, 11:22:15 05/18/04 Tue

If 60% of "Angel" fans donated $50 each, that would add up to 120 million dollars. "Angel" has almost 4 million viewers according to the Nielsens. We could completely fund TWO seasons with that kind of money. And just because broadcast TV is based on advertising dollars doesn't mean they wouldn't take money from fans too. Keep in mind, when I asked how much people would be willing to donate, it was for a season of "Angel" with commericials... I never suggested we completely fund the whole thing ourselves.

Plz answer -- ghady, 00:31:43 05/17/04 Mon

1) Does Darla return after her death in S3? If so, does she appear in flashbacks or in "real life"? (NO spoilers, PLEASE)
2) I came across the S5 main cast pics--there's no Cordy. WHYYY???? Why did they fire her?? Does she appear again? (again, no spoliers, only the bussiness details)
3) Does Kate show up again? What about Lindsey? (no spoliers)
THANKS!

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[> Best attempts at no-spoiler answers -- Tchaikovsky, 01:27:04 05/17/04 Mon

1) Yes. Both, though the latter is a debatable incarnation of her.

2)Cordelia does appear again, although she is not a regular. There have been so many varying stories about the end of her time on the cast that any explanation is moot. Joss Whedon's official line was that he had taken the character in every direction he could think of, and had nothing more to say about her.

3) No Kate (sob). Lindsey does re-appear.

TCH

Tru Calling Renewed -- Abby, 12:36:02 05/17/04 Mon

According to defamer.com Tru has been renewed for a second season....so there go my Faith on a motercycle hopes. Again. Sigh.

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[> Re: Tru Calling Renewed -- Ames, 17:33:41 05/17/04 Mon

I glad to say that it's not such a bad thing if Tru gets renewed. I think the writing got much better towards the end of the season, and it ended up deserving to be renewed.

Anyway I'd like to see some new Buffyverse stories and characters. The old geezers can always drop in for early guest spots.

You know it's funny - Joan of Arcadia started off like it was going to go somewhere, and then the story line and the quality of the writing just collapsed about the time that Tru got better. I don't think JoA deserves to be renewed as it stands now, although it probably will be based on its early strength. Is this some new law of conservation? Can't have more network shows with quality writing at one time than you can count on the fingers of one hand? Improve one, and another dies?

Cult Times Dec 2003 Interview with Jeff Bell who mentions "The Wild Bunch" -- Rufus, 14:11:35 05/17/04 Mon

To order a copy of this issue of Cult Times, please visit the Visimag website at the link below:
http://www.visimag.com/culttimes/cs28_display.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spoiler-crypt/message/14933
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conversebuffyverse/message/12711

Interview with Jeff Bell in Cult Times new season special.
Interview
by Bryan Cairns.

This interview is aimed at a UK audience, who haven't yet seen any new episodes.

`Jeffrey Bell may have initially been cozying up with aliens on `The X-Files', but when Mutant Enemy caught his attention, he traded in those conspiracy theories and extraterrestrials for the supernatural anguish on AtS. "I like what ME was doing, came over and met with Tim Minear, Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt," recalls
the executive producer/writer. "It was a big love-fest. When I came in, they wanted a Cordelia-centric episode. Most stories are broken in the room with a bunch of hopefully smart people throwing out ideas. At the time, I would pitch to Greenwalt and we'd then pitch to Joss. The writer then goes off, does a pretty detailed outline, and gets notes on that. There are elements in my first one `That Vision Thing', that are mine - like powerful demon Skip - and then other things that come out of the room like Joss's need to serve the bigger story. We wanted W&H to do something bad."

After all, that is what W&H does best. Or is it? In season 4's finale `Home', they unexpectedly handed over the keys to their LA office to Angel, giving the Fang Gang some serious evil-kicking resources. The move almost screams `set-up', but with this new direction, Bell compares seasons 4& 5 to "Night and day, and I don't mean good and bad because I really loved last year's story. But it was a 22 episode story. If you were inside the arc, it was as emotionally satisfying as anything, but if you were on the outside, it was fairly perplexing. This year, we're really trying to tell standalone stories. Because we're in this new space and Angel can be in sunlight because of necro-tinted glass, the show is a little brighter. There's no more gloomy hotel. We have people coming to us with problems along with our own inside W&H. Our second episode `Just Rewards' was about introducing Spike to the AtS world but it was also about `We work for an evil company with an evil client and he doesn't want to go.'"

Poor communication and low revenue could be the least of their problems. Lately, Angel has duked it out with such heavy-hitters as the Beast, a possessed Cordelia and Jasmine. And let's not forget the impending end of the world prevented partially by allies Faith and Willow. So with no epic battles scheduled, does that mean no more Big Bads? "Well, that's a complicated question," muses Bell. "We're trying to construct a mythology that will allow us to pick it up and set it down through most of the season, asking the question, "Why are we really in W&H? What do they want? There will be certain episodes that focus very strongly on that but it's not
like there's an apocalypse. The problem with hosting an apocalypse like last year is everything else seems very trivial. It was a problem `X-Files' ran into the last couple of years. If there's an alien invasion, I don't really care about a dog monster in Georgia. With W&H, we can ask questions, go to standalone episodes, and you won't feel cheated. That's the hope. There will be a couple of characters that will appear and you'll think, `Is this the Big Bad or not?'"

Two of those suspects should be familiar faces to longtime fans, while Angel's new liaison, Eve, could easily be the devil in disguise. "We're building a whole episode around the returning Harmony," reveals Bell. "Episode nine is all about Harmony. It's a day in her life...it's not easy being a young, single, undead person. And people are asking, `What is Eve?' Whether she's good or bad is something we'll play out."

Then there's Spike, who literally bit the dust in BtVS's swan song episode `Chosen', sacrificing himself to defeat the First. Obviously, his spectral return means someone is pulling William's strings. "We will do our best to answer everything in bits and pieces," hints Bell. "Right now Spike is a ghost, but he's not a normal ghost. What the hell is he and why is he here? Ultimately, you'll learn not the big why but how and through what machinations it happened. I think he and Angel are a lot of fun. They have really different energy and viewers always say, `Treat Spike with respect!' We as writers do, but if all the characters did, you'd be bored so fast. What makes Spike unique is he has this outside persona; he's the big bad who doesn't fit in. Otherwise, he's just Angel. What's great is people are so passionate about the characters that they yell and scream."

Some of the uproar is typically caused by the relationships. After all, who belongs with Buffy more - Angel or Spike? The show has always been about interpersonal dynamics and just because things went kaput between Fred and Gunn or Angel and Cordelia, it doesn't mean Cupid's job is done. "You'll get some soap," teases Bell. "Wes still pines for Fred and two of our characters have in episode 5, although I don't know if you'd call it romantic. We've not forgotten that aspect of the show so we're trying to earn it without playing the same beats. And trying to find the right romantic interest for Angel is tricky."

In `Unleashed', Angel saved werewolf Nina from becoming a fine dining entrée, and considering their common nocturnal habits, they do seem like a natural couple. "Nina is not becoming a regular, but there was good chemistry so we've talked about bringing her back," states Bell. "There are no master plans for Angel and werewolf girl but we're always open to the possibility."

Bell promises upcoming episodes will thrust each cast member into the spotlight. In `Lineage', Wes's father visits to evaluate his son's work for a new Watchers' Council, and in `Life of the Party', Lorne discovers the downfall of being the host of the company's super-sized Halloween extravaganza. "And what goes wrong with that?" laughs Bell. "Lord, everything. It's a romp. It's a Spike you've never seen. You've got characters having sex that you would never imagine and there's abominable behaviour in very funny ways." Yet the most anticipated episode, a rumoured guest appearance by Buffy, is not even a done deal. "We're trying, and we hope but there's nothing in cement or even tapioca," confirms Bell. "We know what we would do but it's really about SMG's availability. How she would handle Angel and Spike is where the sparks are. In terms of what would bring her to town, all I'll say is at the end of BtVS, there were about 8,000 potential Slayers let loose upon the world. So she's been travelling a lot, training, teaching, and checking in on them. It would be a very Slayer-related episode but it's really about Buffy, Angel and Spike coming together and working things out."

Bell also guarantees a resolution to Cordy's fate. As for Connor, nothing is written in stone, but Bell acknowledges the little scrapper was a tough character to viewers to sympathise with. "To me, VK came in as Connor and had a thankless task of being the Mordred son,"he says. "As writers, we didn't give him a single break. Everything went against him and we thought he was an irredeemable character, especially after he kept doing horrible things. So we saved him. Emotionally, what would be most important to Angel is to give his son a childhood and happiness. To make a deal with the devil, W&H, to do that was a really powerful thing."

Although Bell obviously appreciates certain moments from the show, he doesn't have an overall favourite episode. "I loved powerful demon Skip in my first story, `That Vision Thing'. I really liked `Forgiving' where Angel tries to smother Wesley with a pillow. It was very emotionally satisfying. And I liked `The Magic Bullet' which I directed, because I worked with Gina Torres who played Jasmine and it was a Fred-heavy story."

ME has a way of nurturing newbie directors, and `The Magic Bullet' was Bell's trial by fire. In retrospect, the experience couldn't have been all that fetal position-inducing, could it? "What's the word?"he reflects."Terrifying. We have a wonderful cast and crew who are very supportive. By and large, it was a blast. I even got to set a guy on fire. And I just did another one which was my lifelone dream, to tell a story about Mexican wrestlers."

That episode, TCToNC, finds Angel seeking the help of a legendary Mexican wrestler currently employed by W&H's mail room. Together, they join forces to take down a vicious Aztec warrior named Tezcatcatl. "When I came to ME where you're supposed to pitch
emotionally-based stories, I pitched `Ahh..I think it would be cool to do Mexican wrestling!' explains Bell. "Evidently, Joss has always had a soft spot for it as well. I tried to do it at `X-Files', so it's 6 years in the making. It's going to be very colourful."

In the grand scheme of things, it's business as usual for Angel and gang, but with a twist. And while fans are blood thirsty for another season, it's too early to make predictions. But if the hourglass happens to run out, how does Bell see the 250 year old vampire's final days? "It will be like at the end of `The Wild Bunch,'" offers Bell. "Joss knows it will go out, but it will be cool, emotional, bittersweet and heroic. Yeah, heroic is the word I would use."

Surrender to the Force (spoilers Power Play) Long and Rambly, sorry -- Lunasea, 06:13:35 05/18/04 Tue

I had an amazing weekend. The only problem with such weekends is that I don't have time to write my analysis up before I leave. Then when I come back I am faced with the dilemma of whether I should read the LJs/board first or write up my analysis. I'm self-centered, so typically I like to write my analysis first. That way, I'm fairly fresh and this is *my* analysis, rather than what someone else said influencing me.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what happened in "Power Play." It's a lot like the Scythe Spell. If you look back on the 5 seasons that make up Angel, what happens seems a very logical conclusion, as if Joss was heading there all along. I have to keep in mind, this isn't supposed to be the end. It is supposed to be "The Gift." It is *an* end, but there is a whole level of the story left to be written.

I am aware that the idea of surrendering to a higher power is repugnant to most people who are reading this. This feeling probably contributed to the cancelation of Wonderfalls. The thing to keep in mind is that the self-professed angry existentialist atheist that creates AtS and set down these arcs, including one where a higher power comes down, does not believe in these things. They are metaphors. If you believe that Minear is saying do what talking wax lions tell you to or that Joss is saying listen to the gods, you are missing the story. Many people liked season 4 AtS because the gods weren't so benevolent. Again, missing the story.

Angel is originally patterned on an alcoholic. The famed 12 Steps of AA mentions surrendering.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Substitute any addiction for "alcohol" and you have the various Anonymous programs (which are about as numerous as Zen and the Art of books).

The idea of turning our will over to anything seems to stand against everything BtVS and AtS stands for. In a world of paradox, Joss ends "Grave" with "The Prayer of St. Francis" which states that this type of surrendering is our way to freedom. "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace."

There is a huge difference between that and Jasmine. "Our fate has to be our own or we are nothing." Jasmine did not make people into instruments of her peace. Man wasn't even a tool. Food source maybe, but man was reduced to nothing. They were reduced to nothing so that Jasmine could control them and create her perfect world.

"Figuring out how to control your magic seems a lot like hammering a nail. Well, uh, hear me out. So you're hammering, right? OK, well at the end of the hammer, you have the power, but no control. It takes, like, two strokes to hit the nail in, or you could hit your thumb...So you choke up. Control, but no power. It could take like ten strokes to knock the nail in. Power, control. It's a tradeoff." (Xander in "Help")

It is this balance between control and power, between will and surrender that allows one to be effective and hammer in nails. Jasmine took away choice, the source of human power. As such we became powerless and she had total control. We also became nothing. The instrument that St. Francis speaks about is a balance. His prayer is his consent, thus maintaining his power, but surrendering at the same time. He also plays an active role, "sow love...pardon...faith...hope...light...joy...to console...to understand...to love...giving...pardoning...dying." He isn't a hammer, but a nail gun. In "Chosen," as Bit says, Buffy went from the Chosen One to the One Choosing. She chose to become an instrument, thus maintaining her control and her fate was her own. The Buffy that drags the Potentials out of the Bronze in "Dirty Girls" is now dancing the night away.

Angel's dual nature is a wonderful metaphor for man's dual nature. Good/evil. Angel did not lose his demonic nature. We are reminded of that this season with Nina. It is easy to see Angle not acting on this side of him unless unsouled and just assume he has conquered it. He may have, but he didn't banish it. As Angelus tells us "I'm always here, Faithy. Deep in." Can the alcoholic ever fully recover?

The battle of good and evil is just that, a battle. It is an apocalypse. Evil does not win because good doesn't fight. Angel's conscience is an active presence. It won't allow him to eat the baby in "Darla." It makes him rescue the puppy in "Orpheus." It makes him help Buffy when he sees her called in "Becoming." It makes him want to kill himself so he can't hurt her in "Amends." Darla refers to Angel being good as "suppress[ing] your real nature." ("Angel") What Angel already realizes is that he is more complex than that now, "But I'm not exactly one of you either."

It takes Angel over 100 years to come to some sort of understanding of this. "Every time he gets close, I feel it. Wanting to tear their flesh apart. The hunger. It's like a blade in my gut." (Angelus in "Orpheus") Blood lust is an addiction. In order to overcome it, Angel works the 12 steps. Faith jokes "I've got to be the first Slayer in history sponsored by a vampire." ("Sanctuary") All the sponsors in AA are addicts who have worked the steps. It is Doyle that shows Angel just how out of control Angel's life still is. Angel puts his trust in Doyle and his visions from the PTBs.

Season 5, Angel doesn't believe any more. Not only did the Powers allow all the bad things in Angel's life to happen, but season 4 one of them made those things happen. As of the beginning of "You're Welcome," he doesn't believe he can make a difference. He is sticking his one finger, even if it is a big finger, in a dyke with a billion holes.

Cordy says she comes back in "You're Welcome" to "get my guy back on track." In "Power Play" we find out just what that means. Liam's vamping opens his eyes to a world of darkness. When Darla bites him in "Becoming" she first tells him to close his eyes. Then as she bites him, they pop open. Now that Angel's eyes are open to that, he has to figure out how to deal with that. As he says "I was brought back for a reason, Doyle, and as much as I would like to kid myself, I don't think it was for 18 holes at Rancho." ("In the Dark")

There's another idea that the angry atheists don't like, the idea that there is a reason. If there is nothing to give us a reason, how do we have a reason? Angel is constantly trying to figure out a reason for fighting. He has to do this because he is fighting, himself. Devil and angel continue the eternal debate, sitting on our shoulders making our heads hurt. What devil offers is so attractive and it is easy to just surrender to him. That is how it is referred, giving into the dark side of the force. To be good, we have to fight the darker impulses we have.

That is focusing on the darkness and missing the light. A shadow is caused when something blocks the light. That something is us. We cast our own shadow. If we view goodness and light to be a passive force, we have to fight the dark. If we realize it is the vibrant active force that it is, it can give us the radiant energy of the sun that is the source of all life.

Angel's destiny is to be a major player in the apocalypse. Then after he does what he is supposed to, he will Shanshu. Being a member of the Circle of the Black Thorn makes him a major player in the apocalypse. What side he is on is gray because he fights for good, but will do this as a member of the Circle. What side is a double agent on?

The Circle of the Black Thorn is the Crown of Thorns the Romans crowned Jesus with. It is a false crown. It is a painful crown. The thorns that are designed to protect the roses are perverted and twisted so that they don't protect. They hurt. The rose is beauty and love, everything that Jesus stood for. It is also the symbol of Mary. "Why are you so enamored of my face that you do not turn your gaze to the beautiful garden which blossoms under the radiance of Christ? There is the Rose in which the Divine word became flesh: here are the lilies whose perfume guides you in the right ways." (Dante's Paradiso)

Joss' main theme is power, what is it and what is it for. The Circle of the Black Thorn is power for power's sake. They take the power, which is meant for more than 18 holes and Rancho and twist it to the will of the Senior Partners who make them more powerful. Angel wants to show them there is something more powerful. "You have a choice, Connor. That is something more precious then you'll ever know." (Darla in "Inside Out.")

It is what we do with this choice that matters. Becoming an instrument of peace is not wrong because it is surrendering. The Circle of the Black Thorn are the Senior Partners' instruments on Earth. Whistler, Doyle, Cordy, Drogen and Angel have been the Higher Power's instruments. Every one of them made the choice to do that. The visions open Angel's eyes further. He is sleeping when they first hit him. As they do, we see his eyes pop open. Darla vamped Angel with a kiss. Cordy got him back on track with one.

To get Angel back on track, there has to be a track. The PTBs show him visions. Those visions are for a purpose. They want him to do something. Doing that, even if it is his choice, is a form of surrender. He chooses to surrender to their will. He chooses to become their instrument. In standing up to the Senior Partners, thy will be done.

Why else go out in a blaze of glory? Why give up all those small acts of kindness he could do for his very long life? Why ask his friends to make the supreme sacrifice? Death? They are looking at eternal torture which makes Lindsey's suburban hell look like a walk in the park.

"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."

Angel is willing to make a huge statement in the present. To what end? He admits it won't last and the Senior Partners will just regroup.

"All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

Angel will grind the gears of the Apocalypse machine to a halt. Let's just assume he is successful (totally unspoiled). For a brief shinning moment, people won't suffer as they do. Instead of the smallest act of kindness, we are talking the smallest time period.

I'm not so sure how I feel about all this. Then again, this isn't the final message. This should set up something else. If Angel does this and doesn't Shanshu, he knows that he hasn't done what it is he is supposed to. Then what? Prophecies are written for a reason. This one isn't written to motivate him, since we saw in "Judgment" he can't be working towards this. Instead, I see it as a way of him knowing that he still has work ahead of him. If he hasn't Shanshued he hasn't done whatever he is supposed to. He can keep being a bigger and bigger player and it won't be enough.

Angel thinks that if he does this, the Senior Partners will reign down their full wrath on them. Perhaps the gang, but if he hasn't Shanshued, they aren't going to destroy him yet. He still has a part to play and they still want to try and control him. Power and Control. They can only have control if he gives up power. He is the hammer. It is his choice who will wield him and how successful they will be. If he tries to maintain complete control, he won't be as powerful as he can be.

Then again, the Senior Partners could Shanshu him just to get him out of the game. If they give up that they can control him, they can take away what they perceive as his power. Lindsey wanted to kill Angel to become a Thorn. The Senior Partners could kill Angel in the sense of him no longer being a vampire. Then Angel will have to live in a hard and cruel world that he can't help as much. He will be in Jasmine's position at the end of "Peace Out."

For me, Angel as human isn't a coda to his story. It is an important part that merits at least a full season. What happens when he becomes an ant again? Buffy couldn't lose her power as part of her story, but it is integral to Angel's.

It will be interesting whatever happens.

Current board | More May 2004