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Angel & Angelus.....(Spoilers:Not Fade Away) -- SS, 06:21:31 05/22/04 Sat

Did anyone else in that final scene see double?

I mean, at one point Team Angel effectively asked Angel whose side he was playing on. (Before he told them his plan.)

And my mind wandered to thinking that they meant the greater good versus evil.

Then I wondered to myself....what would Angel's evil side, Angelus have done in this situation?

And I think he would have done (approximately) the same thing as Angel did. (Approximately, because of course he would have been nastier about it...wouldn't have cared about Gunn's wound, etc.)

But coming right down to it, I think he would have signed up to be in that alley too.

Why? Because fighting the Senior Partners wasn't (to me) about fighting evil, it was about fighting for people and demons to be able to choose to be good or evil.

And I think Angelus would have been all about keeping his own freedom to choose.

If Angel did/does die in that alley....maybe at least he would have the good thing of doing it.....as whole as he probably ever could be or could have been.

SS

Replies:

[> Re: Angel & Angelus.....(Spoilers:Not Fade Away) -- Ann, 06:38:38 05/22/04 Sat

That was the beauty of this episode. When Angel drinks from Hamiliton, he is accepting Angelus and his power. He has finally looked in the mirror and seen himself. He chooses to use the power of his "total self". He IS a vampire. He will deny it no more. He doesn't need anyone to deny him at Gethsemene because he will do that no more. Angel can finally be himself, and accept himself, something he has not done until now. He doesn't need sanshu anymore because he doesn't need to be human anymore. He IS what he is.

[> [> Heaven maybe?.....(Spoilers:Not Fade Away) -- SS, 06:56:55 05/22/04 Sat

Do you think that means that if he does die, he will be able to go to the heaven where Buffy was before season six?

I really hope so.

:)

SS

The Final Battle Assessed (Spoilers: Angel 5:22) -- StarryNightShade, 07:09:10 05/22/04 Sat

This is a tongue-in-cheek assessment of whether or not our champions can win the fight against the Minions of Hell. It's tongue-in-cheek not because of the assessment, but, for me, I don't think it really matters. The symbol is the fight must go on. If, for you purposes, the all must die, some must die or all must live, then so be it. What Joss would do if there are future shows will depend on those characters he's interested in and which actors will be involved?

It's also tongue-in-cheek as this not a philosophical, psychological or spiritual analysis. It's purely for fun.

The basic comparision unit of the analysis is 1 champion = 10 minions. For reference I use Angel in the garage of Season 2.

Battles are assessed on the basis of numbers of combatants that can effectively engage at one moment. Victory will go to the side that can outlast the other either through attrition (last combatant surviving) or until the one side loses morale and runs away.

Success in a combat round is always uncertain, but the higher the ratio is in favour of one side the more likely that side will win. Typically, military practioners like odds of 3:1 or higher in their favour. Anything less is too risky.

Before assessing the final battle in Angel 5.22, I'll check it against "Horation at the Bridge" and the final battle of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid".

Horatio: The story is that Horatio defend a bridge leading to Rome against the Etruscan army until his companions could dismantle the bridge. Horatio did not survive.

Horatio = 10 Etruscans (minions....sorry for insulting any Etruscans out there, but it's a Roman legend afterall).

Horatio is capable of defending the bridge alone, so it's narrow. Everyone is armed with swords, spears, etc. (no bows) so the range of engagement is the not much more than the reach of a man. Therefore the maximum number of Etruscans that can engage at any one time is between 3-5. So Horatio's odds are between 2:1 and 3.3:1. Initially Horatio is likely to win the combat. However, being a normal human, Horatio will become fatigued and less efffective. Say he drops to half strength by

the time it takes his comrades, then the ratio would drop to 1:1 to 1.6:1. Without any opportunity to retreat Horatio is stuck there and his opponents know it, so their morale remains intact...Horatio dies, but saves Rome.

Butch & Sundance: In the final battle Butch and Sundance are in a house surrounded by 100+ police armed with rifles. The charge out of the house in a blaze of glory.

Butch = Sundance = 10 Police (no offence to any policeman, it's a movie afterall)

Inside the building Butch and Sundance are protect, so only a very small number of police would have an opportunity, but once Butch and Sundance leave the building they are in the open. The police are in protected positions with very good fields of fire, but only a half would be on the side that Butch & Sundance leave. So only 50 police (assuming that there are a hundred) can fire at the two heros. However, the police are protected (hiding behind walls, etc.) while Butch and Sundance will be in the open, so Butch and Sundance are at half effectiveness.

Butch & Sundance = (10 police + 10 police) / 2 = 10 police. Ratio is 50 / 10 = 5:1 in favour of the police. B&S are dead before they get 5 paces.

Now to Angel's final battle.

Normal Angel = Spike = 10 minions. All of the heroes (less Illyria) couldn't take Illyria down. Let's put Illyria at 3 X Angel = 30 minions. Hamilton had no trouble beating Illyria and Angel couldn't even phase him. So Hamilton is probably 10 X Angel, but I doubt that Angel would have the full effect of Hamilton's blood. I'd guess that supercharged Angel = 5 normal Angels = 50 minions. I won't count Gunn directly in the combat ratio due to his wound, but all him to finish off any minion that sneaks up behind Angel, Spike and Illyria. The total for our heroes is 10 (Spike) + 30 (Illria) + 50 (super Angel) = 90 minions. Except for Gunn they are all superhuman; they won't suffer from any significant fatigue throughout the night. They all think they are going to die anyway, so morale is high and remains high.

The Minions of Hell are countless, but only a relative small number will be able to engage at any one time (they only have swords, axes, hammers, etc.), maybe 15-20 minions. They've lost all the great leaders of the SP on earth; their only leader is the dragon who's probably just come through a portal. The minions are a pretty disorganised lot; they won't be allowed any fancy tactics - just a straight forward charge at the enemy. They also have their self-preservation instincts intact;

they will be subject to morale effects.

The Dragon is likely to be fierce...maybe equal to Illryria (i.e. 30 minions), but due to his size he can't engage our champions at the same time as the rank and file minions. The dragon's probably pretty arogant and sizes up his enemy as one woman, two vampires and a wounded man. Easy pickings for a dragon. The dragon's got his fire, but he's also big and hence a lot more clumsy than our agile super heroes....effective engagement is only a little more than the reach of our heroes, but they can close the distance quickly.

The first round ratio with the dragon has a combat ratio of 90 / 30 = 3:1 in favour of the heroes. Given an arrogant dragon, it could also make mistakes. The dragon likely dies.

Subsequent rounds with the minions has a combat ratio of 90 / 15-20 = 4.5:1 to 6:1, the initial rounds will be a slaughter of the minions. Arms, legs and heads will be flying left and right. The minion front ranks will recoil from the shock.

However, at the back of the horde the SP will be urging the minions on. The front pushes back and the back pushes forward, more and more minions crowd into each other so that they are unable to effectively weild their weapons...it's straight butchery. With the dragon dead they are leaderless in combat except for the nebulous force of the S&P pushing them in.

Bodies of the minions pile up, now the minions have to clamber over their dead comrades to get at the champions...so they are even less efffective. Sooner or later, they lose their courage and start to slink away...so the SP don't notice.

Couldn't happen? It did. At Agincourt....5,000 English defeated 30,000 French. The English lost less than 1,000 and the French lost 10,000. It pretty much went the way I described the minion combat.

I think Angel's smile is due to the fact that with Hamilton's blood he's actually thinking he and his team can win the fight....and killing the dragon first is the right way to go.

I hope you found this not too sick and just a little bit of fun.

SNS

Replies:

[> Re: The Final Battle Assessed (Spoilers: Angel 5:22) -- Indri Indri, 07:22:08 05/22/04 Sat

I know it's highly unlikely that we see all of the minions onscreen, but I count a dozen human-sized ones, half a dozen "ogre"-sized ones and one very large biped plus the dragon. Of course, we've no idea if they're regular minions or souped-up Hamiltonesque ones. I'll have to rewatch some of "You're Welcome" to work out if they might have been alluded to there.

The first time I watched the episode, I came away thinking the crew were certainly dead. On a second viewing, I was much more optimistic, albeit Gunn seems unlikely to survive. Thank you for bolstering my (possibly false) hope.

[> [> Re: The Final Battle Assessed (Spoilers: Angel 5:22) -- SNS, 07:44:56 05/22/04 Sat

There would certainly be some junior battle leaders in the mix. I doubt that we could expect an army of Hamiltons, otherwise there would be no sense of the special purpose of the Circle and Hamilton on earth. If the SP can muster that type of firepower, then why not just overrun the earth and to heck with the futzing around. The dragon's really the worst that I saw. The other larger junior leader types would help the Minions battle, but the odds are so skewed in favour of the Champions...I'd still bet on them...remember Joss always intended this as the conclusion to Season 5 even if Season 6 had been picked up. He said he was interested in exploring Illyria in further depth. Spike's a viewer draw and is a safe as houses. Angel as a series without Angel is silly, so he would be back whether as a survivor or returned from the dead...well Buffy returned twice.

True in battle there's always the unexpected...e.g. dragon blast takes out one or both vampires early on. This just provides a rationale for the board if they do write episodes for season 6.

Anyway, as I said the outcome of the battle doesn't matter for the message I got from the story. Everyone, even vampires eventually dies.

Glad I could bolster your hopes. BTW my profession IS military analysis.

SNS

[> [> [> Re: The Final Battle Assessed (Spoilers: Angel 5:22) -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:15:02 05/22/04 Sat

Actually, I think Illyria might be weaker then you estimated. We know she still retained supernatural strength, but we can't be sure how much.

In regards to minions, some are probably no stronger then your average vampire. Others might be farther up, like say Skip (who gave Angel a pretty fierce fight). In fact, given that the majority of demons seem to be stronge than the average vampire, I think the 10 minions to 1 Champion ratio should probably be revised. And there was at least one of them who seemed giant sized (roughly three times the size of a normal demon), who, while he could be beaten, would take either the combined effort of our fighters or one of them a very long time. You could see he'd block the way for the minions behind him, but it looked as though they could fit between his legs.

You also say our superhuman warriors won't suffer fatigue, but we know that vampires sleep, and therefore can assume they can get tired. Plus, at least when fighting against so many enemies, our heroes are usually hit at least a few times. After a while of fighting, the force due to punches and shallow cuts can start taking its toll.

As for the number of demons at the Senior Partners' disposal, we've seen that the demonic population of LA is quite large, and the SP are entirely capable of opening up doorways to other dimensions to bring in other minions. The potential number of minions could range anywhere from fifty to several hundred.

Then there's the fact that more minions could come from the other direction. There's a chainlink fence blocking the way, but that's an easily torn down obstacle. If the Fang Gang was hedged in on both sides, forcing them to turn their back towards some minions, their odds decrease.

Lastly, there's time to consider. Angel and Spike can only fight until dawn without finding some shadowy place to retreat to. Given how many demons there were, and the fact that it had already been night for a while, it doesn't seem unlikely that the Senior Partners could hold them off till sunrise, at which point Spike and Angel would die if they didn't flee (which they might very well not be able to do), leaving only Illyria and possibly Gunn behind.

I'm not saying it's impossible for Angel and Co. to win, but I'd say the odds of that happening are so small as to be insignificant.

[> [> [> [> Re: The Final Battle Assessed (Spoilers: Angel 5:22) -- SNS, 09:52:45 05/22/04 Sat

I'm basing my 10:1 ratio on the best demons Darla could muster in LA not on the run of the mill vampire. Yes, Illyria could be weaker, but that's why I didn't rate her higher...I still think she could easily best Spike or normal Angel at the end.

And yes, portals of hell could open up all over the place, but then why the heck haven't they done it before and why did they need W&H, the Circle of the Black Thorn or Hamilton or even Angel. Basically if you put no end to what the SP can do, the whole story of an earth dominated by humans becomes implausible.

My basic assumption is that the SP have lost their leadership on earth...hence no coordination in their fight. That's why no portals to the rear, but a straight forward bash'em up. Ancient history is full of large armies defeated by small ones, particuarly when their leadership is taken out....witness the Byzantines at Manzikert against the Turks or Alexander versus the Persians on numerous occasions.

Surely you can change my numbers and go with even a 2:1 average for champion to minion....and even if they were surrounded on all sides, there's still a limit to how many can fight at once....perhaps 30 if the champions keep their backs to a wall. Even then the odds are still only 2:1 in favour of the minions. Armies have lost even with those odds on their side.

As for sunlight, I'm guessing that the minions would also suffer somewhat from daylight...and fatigue, yes everyone suffers fatigue but I'm ignoring in this case by assuming the battle is over before it takes effect.

As I say you can come up with you own numbers as there is no way to check them, but I hardly would call the champion's chances as insignificant.....and how would you explain Joss using this ending even if there was a 6th season?

Further, as I also said whether they win or lose it's not important for what I got from the story.
SNS

[> [> [> [> [> Long drawn out rebuttal -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:20:36 05/22/04 Sat

He could very well have killed them off one by one as they showed up, rather than all at once. Given that the largest number of vampires we've seen someone of Buffy/Angel/Spike level power defeat at once was seven (in "Into the Woods"), giving Angel or Spike 10:1 odds against a bunch of demons seems unlikely.

You cite the battle of Agincourt, where 5000 defeated 30,000. The English were only outnumbered 6:1 though, compared to the Fang Gang who have, at best, four fighters against what looks like an army of no less than fifty, and quite possibly much more. Even using their advantages of above par strength and a narrow fighting place, they're still facing worse odds, I'd say.

You say the Senior Partners are too disorganized at the moment to open up portals, but they managed to cause the earthquake which wrecked the Wolfram & Hart building, so portals don't seem unreasonable.

You ask why humans still rule this dimension if W&H has so many minions? Keep in mind, they're an interdimensional law firm. They could pull in a bunch of demon warriors from other dimensions and have them concur earth in no time flat, but then they'd be left with the other dimensions they work in weakened. As such, they'd probably only pull in a significant number of fighters from other worlds if they were desperate (and when it came to getting rid of Angel and Co. quickly, they were desperate).

As for Joss planning to continue Season 6 after this point, you can't be sure his original idea for the finale was like this. Think about "The Gift": Joss's original plan had Buffy killing an evil Willow, Sunnydale being sucked into Hell, and (possibly) Xander being the Glory host that Giles killed. He had to change some things when he found out Buffy would have a sixth season, and so probably changed some things in "Not Fade Away" when he found out Angel wouldn't. Besides, the door still isn't close to future Buffyverse projects using the same characters since: (a) death can be a rather fluid state in the Buffyverse; (b) a deus ex machina could save our heroes; (c) just because I don't think the Fang Gang could defeat the army doesn't mean I don't think one of them couldn't escape with his life intact.

Let me put out the number calculations as I see it:

Spike and Angel are roughly equal in terms of strength, and both are roughly equal to Buffy. As such, I'll count each as having 1 Slayer strength (here I'm using strength to include speed and fighting skills as well). Now, the most vampires any of them have ever killed at once by themselves have been the 7 in "Into the Woods". While Buffy disposed of them quickly, they were also among the weaker of vampires (the script describes at least one of them as helpless, and we can assume they're not too good at fighting since they never have to bother with their food struggling). I'd say the speed of slaying and the particular weakness of these vamps comes to a wash, so we can count them as being just normal slayings. So, 7 normal vampires is the most someone at 1 Slayer strength has killed. If we take into account our heroes being pushed to the limit, I could see them killing ten. These are normal vampires, keep in mind. Some demons are about the same strengthwise, a few are weaker, and some are stronger. Given this, how about we count the average demon rushing towards the Fang Gang as having the strength of 2 normal vampires (I'm not including the giant or dragon here).

Now, as you said, not all of these demons can reach them at once. Given the width of the alley, I'd say five would be able to rush the Fang Gang at one time, each averaging the strength of two vampires, meaning someone with 1 Slayer strength can kill 5 at their uppermost limit.

Then there's our heroes' strength to consider. Spike counts as 1 Slayer, as I've said before. Illyria is hard to determine at this point, since we haven't seen her fight Angel or Spike since her powers were drained. However, we do know she was easily beaten by Hamilton, and Angel seemed to put up about the same amount of fight against him. Of course, Hamilton was playing with him a little, but he was also doing that slightly with Illyria. Let's call her 1.5 Slayers, 2 at the max, shall we?

Now there's the effect Hamilton's blood had on Angel. Given everything we've seen, how about estimating him as having 5 Slayer strength, 6 or 7 at the max. Angel drained away part of this power; let's say half to keep things simple. So, Angel adds 3 Slayer strength to his original 1, making him a 4 against Hamilton's 3, allowing him to win fairly easily. Of course, I think some of this probably wears off with time, bringing Angel down to either 2 or 3 Slayer for the battle.

I'm not going to be counting Gunn for much, given his condition; the most I'll credit to his fighting ability at the moment is as a slight nudge in the Fang Gang's favor should they be faced with a tie.

So, we've got Spike (1 Slayer strength), with Angel (let's be generous and say 3 Slayer), and Illyria (2 Slayer). They've got a total of 6 Slayer strength, which is enough to cancel out 30 minions at 5 per Slayer. Now, this would seem to give them a big advantage, as only five minions can face them at a time, but there are a few logistical problems to take into account.

1) The bodies. Most demons don't dust or melt when killed, so we can assume that that space in the alley get's pretty full pretty fast. This either results in the Fang Gang becoming barricaded in by a corpse pile or them having to seek new terrain to fight on. If it's a barricade, the demons have to climb up the bodies and pounce down on them. This, to me, would seem to indicate an advantage. Some demons may happen to land right on a sword, but those that manage to land some sort of blow will land a more powerful one, and a few pouncing demons should at least be enough to knock them off balance, making them vulnerable to attack. If they seek new terrain, they could very well end up somewhere where they don't have walls on two sides and a gate on another, and so can be surrounded. Either way, this doesn't look too good.

2) Our Champions tend to do a lot of jumping and running about while fighting; that's their style. However, they're confined to a narrow alley space. Since the average demon doesn't do as many acrobatics, their fighting style isn't diminished nearly as much as our heroes'. Also, if they do try all the neat little jumping tricks in the alley, they could find themselves landing amid some more demons, thus becoming surrounded.

3) The dragon, as you said, is a big contender. Not just because of size and fire breathing, but also because he can fly. It can attack them without blocking the rest of the army's assault. If Angel follows through on his intention to slay it, at least at the beginning, only Spike and Illyria are facing the approaching demons. There's also the fact that, while fighting the dragon, Angel wouldn't be able to properly guard himself against approaching demons on land, or, if dealing with them, not able to guard against the dragon.

4) Remember that I averaged the strength of the demons marching towards them; they don't all have the strength of 2 vampires. Sometimes the front line Angel and Co. are fighting will have demons of both high and low power, sometimes of only low power, and sometimes of only high power. All it would take is for the 5 demons in the front to all be of a high level (ie, close to or even above Slayer strength). This line of 5 demons could deal some painful and weakening wounds to the fighters, perhaps even kill them. One could attack can do more damage then a bunch of weak ones could.

5) Then there's luck to factor in. If Angel, Spike, or Illyria get in a lucky shot, they kill an enemy that would otherwise have taken a little longer to do away with. If one of the demons they're fighting gets a lucky shot, one of our Champions is knocked off guard (thus made easy to attack), badly hurt, or even killed. If even one of them gets taken down, their odds decrease dramatically, unlike with the demons, where each attacking line has dozens of others to back it up. Let's say Angel gets killed; he's worth 2-3 Slayers with Hamilton's blood, which translates to 20-30 minions. One demon gets a lucky shot and hurts Angel badly enough that he can be swarmed and killed fairly quickly. Suddenly their odds just went from 6:1 to 3:1, a 50% drop, with only one lucky blow from one demon. Even though we can assume the Fang Gang gets more lucky shots (they have plenty of times over the series), they're still screwed even if they get three times as many lucky shots as the opposition, since they have well over three times as many soldiers with the opportunity. That's where the difference between this fight and a famous one like Agincourt comes in. 30,000 against 5000 is, as I said before, only outnumbering 6:1, whereas I'd guess the number of demons attacking in "Not Fade Away" to be fifty at the least and a hundred without too much effort. Those are 33:1 odds. In order for the English to lose 50% of their forces with one lucky charge at Agincourt, the French would have to have killed 2500 Englishmen in one charge; that seems unlikely. However, a demon getting a good shot against Angel and either killing him or making him too weak to last too much longer isn't that unlikely, at least when he's going up against a hundred. Luck seems to me to be an important factor.

All in all, I see things as not going to well for the Fang Gang. And that's without the Senior Partners sending demons around the back (which I think could very well happen; the organization to get all these demons together in one place is organization sufficient enough to tell some of their forces to go around the block and attack from the other side). This would leave the Fang Gang fighting 10 demons at a time, rather than 5, which halves their odds.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Let's not assume its necessarily a straight fight -- Charles Phipps, 17:33:10 05/22/04 Sat

Angel could very well have a Scythe, Amulet of Power, or whatnot hidden away. All of Illyria's lost power or whatnot....he could have looted any number of Wolfram and Hart toys for this endeavor.

Buffy vs. The Mayor for instance is a fight that the logic of it says Buffy cannot possibly win.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Long drawn out rebuttal -- ROB, 17:44:56 05/22/04 Sat

Just in this episode alone, Gunn dusted more than seven vampires in that office. It could have been higher than that too, as we didn't get to see the whole fight.

I also think Angel in the garage is a valid example of how much one of our heroes can take on at once. Although in that example, it's not clear if Angel took them one at a time or they all rushed him.

I think it's fair to say that the Buffyverse is unpredictable enough to land our heroes a win.

But I still like the overall theme.

-ROB

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROB, you might want to consider using a different posting name... -- Rob, 21:43:37 05/22/04 Sat

....since I'm Rob, and I've been posting here for about three years now, and it will most likely just lead to confusion on everyone's parts if there are 2 people posting here with the same name.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: ROB, you might want to consider using a different posting name... -- Other Guy, 09:26:58 05/23/04 Sun

Let's just try this instead

Other Guy

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heh, I like that! -- Rob, 10:45:18 05/23/04 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Long drawn out rebuttal -- SNS, 17:50:12 05/22/04 Sat

It was intended as a tongue-in-cheek assessment. There is no way to verify yours or my numbers...so we can take yours as a pessimists view and mine as the optimists view.

As far as Agincourt is concerned it is not the overall army to army strength that determined the battle, but the exchange ratio at the front line. Near the end of the battle the French 3rd line (nobles and knights) outnumbered the tired English but preferred not to engage.

As for mounds of bodies these impeded the attacking French at Agincourt. Typically it was the attacker that suffered from these things.

I suggest you read "The Face of Battle" by Keagan for a very good account of Agincourt.

....and in the end we can agree to differ.

SNS

[> [> [> [> [> [> Reinforcement for Both Sides... -- Giles, 19:11:54 05/22/04 Sat

I have been thinking about what both siodes are thinking in this and i agree with quite a bit, but one of the most important things are going to be reinforcements. As others have said the SP could bring in a portal and have many more demons, but there are people who might be able to help our wacky heros. First thing that has popped to mind is Buffy and the other slayers. I would assume that they have ways of kdeeping up on the paranormal happenings (esp in LA if they are not sure if angel is still on their side). I would be willing to bet once the buffster hears about this (which this is something i am sure one of her contacts would inform her about) She will want to send reinforcements. Even if she cannot send their whole group (airline prices would kill)she would send somebody. that would take a while however, which is when we turn to Willow. I think that after what happened in chosen, she trusts her powers more. I am sure she could cook up some transporting spell which we have seen them before (She used one on glory). And even if she, who i am assuming is one of the stronger witches in the world, cant pull it off, i am sure that she knows other witches (such as the coven in britan) which could help her. This might take a while, if buffy decides to do this, and we dont know how ,uchenergy ity would take to transport people, but i am sure they could get at least 4 or 5 over there rather quickly to help holsd the fort. Once the sun comes up i am sure there will be some evil creatures which would be killed or weakened ( i am sure that some of the SP gigantic store of demons and evil creatures are some form of vamp. and at that point angel and spike would be out of the picture, unless they got into the Hyperion from some entrance, in which case they could fight in there. and after a while, i this battle lasts long enough, there could be more coming in via planes. Even if Buffy doesnt help out they have allies in La which i would think would help if they found out (like i have said before if a gigantic apacolyptic battle was occuring i am sure that the demon comm unity within LA would know).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Nuances of such conflict -- -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 13:37:58 05/24/04 Mon

As a friend of mine (ex-Navy) said, "The problem with force multipliers is that, if lost, they become force divisors."

In other words, a very powerful unit/element that your side is relying upon (read Angel/Spike/Illyria) can, if lost to a lucky hit (as per previous comment) hurt your side dreadfully.

While the run-of-the-mill bashi-bazouk (or generic "Kill me, I have no name" demon), while not much of a force advantage, is also not much of a loss should he drop to the Good Guys.

[> [> [> [> Fighting Until Dawn (Spoilers: Angel 5:22) -- q 3, 16:54:26 05/23/04 Sun

I don't think sunlight would be a problem for the fang boys, assuming the battle lasts that long. In the past (Amends, BtVS season 3), TPTB have gone so far as to make it snow in Sunnydale in order to keep Angel from burning--and that was an attempted suicide on his part. Making sure the present cloud cover remains through the next day seems the least intervention one could expect from them, if only to ensure that two of their best remaining warriors don't lose a major battle on account of a technicality.

[> When you are at -- lakrids, 13:23:38 05/22/04 Sat

What is the odds, for caveman versus astronauts with and without tools?

And by the way, I think that the dragons main weapon (fire), can not be use by it, because that friendly fire, would become a little to literal, for its own alias.

[> [> Re: When you are at: Final Batle, Cavemen vs. Astronauts -- botitas, 17:22:54 05/22/04 Sat

The question of Who wins a battle of Cavemen vs Astronauts is answered by Angel in the finale when he tells Lindsey that the Earth was once owned by the demons and now it is not. The two forces of equal strength fight one another , one fair and gentle, the other rough, cruel and unfair, so who wins? The strength of the Astronauts is jeopardized by the limitations exacted by his own conscience, while the Cavemen have no limitations. They are as Spike says pure primal power, so the Cavemen should overwhelm the Astronauts. Curiously only Angel chooses the Astronauts and when one looks at humanity as a whole, Angel is correct, because it is the Astronauts who have won; otherwise, how could I possibly be able to write this on a computer unless civility triumphed over barbarism.
Of course, the cavemen, the ruffians, and murderers, the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart; who exist in every level of society, from top to bottom constantly work like termites to undermine the fabric of civilization, and have at times succeeded; for example the fall of Rome,and Greece, and the rise of Nazi Germany. However, the triumph of the Cavemen is never complete; nothing is ever complete and prefect in this world because the traditions of justice and goodness which survived were sufficient to perserve culture and pass it on to the following generations. In the long run the good man, the Astronaut, though handicapped by his own morality triumphs over the Caveman. Although the cavemen at times win, the constant efforts of "good men and women" like drops of water falling on the same place can crave canyons. For example Anne's never ending struggles to improve the life of the homeless. When Charles asks what she would do if he told her that her efforts were futile, Anne does not flinch, but simply states that she would keep moving the boxes. The miracle of the triumph of the Astronaut is the continuity of effort whereas the Caveman efforts selfish desire for power or greed.
The Caveman may win in the short run but his achievements are likely to be undone as soon as he dies if not earlier by other Cavemen who covet his power. The higher aspirations of the Astronaut are pertinacious and convergent enough to overcome the brute force of the cavemen in the long run. But the Caveman is never completely defeated and just as Angel says, Wolfram and Hart exists not to be defeated but to be fought and only by continually fighting can goodness be perserved. So it is not the individual battle that determines the outcome, but the constant struggle, and as long as Angel "goes to work" the struggle continues Angel and the Astronauts win.

[> [> [> Re: When you are at: Final Batle, Cavemen vs. Astronauts -- Doug, 18:53:02 05/23/04 Sun

The problem is that Angel and the others are the Cavemen. All this season they played the game of the astronauts, the game of civilization and it's rules, the game that W&H manipulates so very well. In the final 2 episodes Angel realizes that as long as he tries to be an Astronaut he just keeps losing so he and the others go back to what they did best; clobbering the other guy.

The men who built the concentration camps were men of science, men of reason. That didn't stop them from doing what they did. Neither did the fact that the celts were "barbarians" prevent their personal honor from requiring them to offer hospitality anyone who begged it, even their enemies. Being "civilized" didn't stop Roman soldiers from slaughtering or enslaving everyone they could in their quest to extend the empire's power; didn't stop the rape and destruction of the Iceni, or God knows how many other peoples who were crushed for the glory of the endless stream of empires that have blighted this world.

Morality has nothing at all to do with reason; a scientist living in nice modern house can be good or evil, the same way a man who lives in a hut made for dirt, reeds, and sod can be good or evil. "Justice and goodness" can be found, or not found, in either.

But in the Jossverse W&H has proven to be unlike any other enemy. Their weapon is human civilization, which they slowly guide to ensure that people act less humanely towards each other. Their real genius isn't the wars, it's in getting people to act with enlightened self-interest. Don't get violent, don't rock the boat, do the smart thing and don't stand around thinking about honor, or whether or not your word means anything; if someone calls you out on your lies sue them for lible and slander. In this setting W&H have made logic their tool. Angel and his friends spent the entire season trying to use logic and reason (the tools of science and law) against their foe; and realized that in this arena they were outclassed.

So they stop trying to be astronauts, and fight like cavemen: Taking their enemies out with bloodshed and sharp heavy objects. To quote from The Mouse that Roared "though the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment." And, true to that quote, the Senior partners are stronger than them, and are likely to crush them in the long run. They still may, even when forced out of their chosen astronaut's battlefield and onto the battle field chosen by then cave-dwellers. You notice how all the memebers of the black thorn are all connected to "civilized" portions of human society; raqutball-playing corporate execs, a politician, an old money blue blood etc.

What Angel and co. do isn't smart, isn't rational, isn't something that is in the pallet of modern behaviour. If they can't achieve victory then why throw their lives away? But what they do is something that would make totatl sense to those who had the courage to challenge the might of Rome. The Germanic tribes who played a large part in the destruction of the Roman Empire had a term "Heroic Virtue". The essential definition is "acknowlegment of the inevitability of fate, combined with defiance of that fate" though it's a little more complicated. Angel and his friends recognize the power of the enemy, the near-impossibility of victory, and defy it regardless. It's not logical, it's not enlightened self-interest; but to those who wielded crude iron weapons and defeated legions armed with steel it was the definition of heroism. Of course those weren't cavemen fighting astronauts, but the principle is the same; none of the fang gang have lived in caves since Fred left Pylea, but the term cavemen doesn't necessarily refer to a troglodytic existence in this usage, merely a more emotional and less rational one, juist as there have been no literal astronauts among W&H's servants yet seen.

Angel's Journey as the Meaning of Sacrifice *Spoilers for finale duh* -- Charles Phipps, 11:08:48 05/22/04 Sat

Angel made his last stand tonight I believe along with the rest of his friends. Ultimately, whether he survives or not I think is fairly immaterial in the grand scheme of things. The dead in Buffy occasionally are destroyed but for the most part they simply go on to different lives of Heaven or continue in some other fashion as part of the grand machine of Good vs. Evil.

Instead though Angel made a symbolic death here as he has embraced himself as an engine of the destruction of evil. The signing away of the Shanshu prophecy is not a signing away of redemption. People are confusing 'redemption' with a 'happy ending,'. The Ending of "Xena Warrior Princess" had Xena allow herself, after countless forgivenesses/cleansings/ressurections after sacrificing some part of herself, to remain dead in order to save the souls of some of her victims. The irony is of course that Xena would have allowed herself to remain dead anyway for people unrelated to her victimization.

Angel freed himself long ago from the need to atone. Redemption was achieved THEN, though people don't understand that. Redemption at least for Angel because it is the freeing him of his past sins ability to affect his current life. Sacrifice is viewed as the only way for the most heinous of deeds because it means you are willing to give all....but here the sacrifice is a voluntary choice I believe...unrelated to Angel's choice.

It is interesting to note that Angel chose to portray himself as Jesus in this particular work. "One of you will betray me" because his attitude has become distinctly god-like, through the entirety of this story. Not just in terms of choosing to fight a cosmic battle but making choices of the greater good for all beings on the planet. Joss has always basically said that working with evil is bad yet this episode says that sometimes its alright (at least my interpretation) to allow evil to be done for the greater good.

Had Angel asked permission of Drogyn to kill him, and somehow kept it a secret, then his sacrifice would have been morally unambigious. Instead Angel commits an act of murder we do not know the circumstances of to eliminate the entirety of the Circle of the Black Thorn. It is the type of action commited all too often by spies but in some ways the very scale the Powers that Be Fight on. Manipulating lives and directing men to live and die in order to serve the cosmic fight.

The Murder of Lindsey is another distinctly godlike act because it is striking down a man for reasons that the man doesn't understand of. Lindsey has been faithful to Angel and his heart is certain but his murder is ordered nevertheless. The seeming senselessness of it makes a sense to Angel no doubt and we can only assume it was for the greater good but was a stark betrayal to Lindsley. Cutting him down before he had a chance to have his faith truly tested.

how many others are similiar in the world?

"Why God why?"-Job

The victory over the Circle of the Black Thorn and the resulting slaughter that will emerge when the God, Angel, and Spike finish their battle with the army will no doubt do incredible damage to the forces of Wolfram and Hart during the Apocolypse. They are unlikely to win but they could also be reinforced, Angel could have another ace up his sleeve (the stolen power of Illyria for example), or an army of slayers could show up

The PTB could even teleport them away or some other business but the fact remains that Angel now plays as a god figure, one who PLAYS the game of chess, rather than a piece (no matter how valuable-a King is still a piece on the board). His life and death are ultimately immaterial to the fact that his final action has set him free totally from the strings of outer forces

That is a true redemption, ironically found in sacrifice.

Angel and the "The Prisoner", a study in contrasts (SPOILERS for both series) -- Charles Phipps, 14:14:42 05/22/04 Sat

Angel and "The Prisoner" *SPOILERS*

'I am not a number, I am a free man!'

It's sad that Joss never referenced this 1960s series because I think that it's a very nice parallel with Season Five. For those of you unfamiliar with it, the Prisoner is about a secret agent that has been captured by a mysterious group of captors that every week try George Orwellian methods to bend his mind in order to get him to submit. Love, Hate, and every other manipulation under the sun are used to get him to give a seemingly trivial bit of information (Why he left the British Secret Service to be Precise).

'Where I am?'
'In the Village'

Wolfram and Hart is a place that Angel and company find that life is not all that unpleasant. The corrupt luxury of the place is something that does not immediately appeal to Angel. Like No. 6 (the protagonist) he is aware of the fundamental flaw in the place. Yet, Angel and company all have their essential Achilles heal. Gunn and Angel ironically are those I believe that were the only ones who would have joined normally.

The others followed their air of authority that this was the right thing to do. Yet the mistake became the beginning of a miasma of corruption and nightmare for them all.

'Whose side are you on/'
'That would be telling'

One of the interesting aspects about Wolfram and hart is the fact that Angel is hardly alone amongst individuals who don't actually believe they are serving the cause of evil. 'Beat the system from within.' Certainly the Special Ops head and Numero Cinco are aware they serve evil along with Lilah, Lindsey, and others but its interesting to note that a certain scientist says the fun line

"We actually cure more diseases than we create"

Wolfram and Hart does its best to fight off other evils that are as ATOBTVS summarizes are 'Evil as Chaos', 'Evil as Destruction', and the like. They serve 'Evil as Order' and 'Evil as Corruption'. Wolfram and Hart are happy to work with the Champions of Good in order to feet 'Good as Corruption/Law' like Jasmine and the nastier forces at work.

Like lawyers are routinely accused of doing, they look at the fine points of law and try to negotiate compromise even when there's no way to reconcile...it is important that meaning is obscured to the point that you think you can.

In the Prisoner one of the most effective tools is the fact they do their best to keep one from the fact that as a Prisoner you will never leave, your life will become meaningless, and your sanity will be stripped away. You will likely even die for no reason as part of their tests. Escape is the only option but if you can hide that, you have one.

'What do you want?'
'We want information'
'You won't get it'
'By hook or by crook, we will!'

Wolfram and Hart show Angel remarkable leniency the entire show. They are not interested in killing Champions for the most part. They are happy to kill most individuals but oddly treat the members of the opposing team's servants with a bit more leniency. There is an enforced politeness and rules of etiquette that have been agreed upon by the PTB and WRH that the First Alludes to with the 'rules'
Like Number 6# Angel is valuable, and can't be dealt with in an unpleasant manner. As the Vampire with a soul he is a player in the prophecy like Number 6# whom the Guardians of the Prisoner wish to recruit that they can deprive the enemy of his resources while also enriching themselves by it. Thus like in the Prisoner they throw countless minions at him in hopes he'll reach his breaking point.

Conner is the key after four seasons of these baiting games, an act of kindness confuses Angel and working for WRH he finds himself no longer possessing INFORMATION save for what WRH feeds him through Eve. 'The Girl in Question' is an example of this and amongst the worst of them. Angel by resurrecting a demon mob boss, keeps a less violent demon gang from coming to power. It is presented as a choice between the greater good via lesser evils.

The old Angel and Spike would have realized if they had outside INFORMATION, there was no reason not to wipe out the violent demon gang.

'Who are you?'
'The new Number 2'

One of the key aspects of the Prisoner that always fascinated me is the fact that the Number 2#s, the wardens of the strange island prison, are essentially prisoners themselves. Lindsey never understood that being Vice President, Head of Wolfram and Hart's division, and so forth was climbing an essentially infinite staircase to no end.
Angel as No. 2 of Wolfram and Hart is the same as being the lowest man on the totem pole in WRH, he's a slave. A slave is a slave is a slave even if he's in charge of other slaves. Exterminating the Society of the Black Thorn only destroys more slaves of the enemy and had Lindsey gotten to be a member, he would have found himself still powerless.

Since always, all of the corrupt power of WRH is solely at the bidding of the Senior Partners. Ironically, Angel and company wield their own power because they choose to oppose such beings rather than serve them. The ending of the game is important because each of the characters fights the Horde not with the power of the PTB but with their own skill like No. 6.

'You are Number 6'

The Horde sent against Angel is essentially the ultimate victory for Angel as a person. It is the pyrric victory of the "The Prisoner". No. 6 emerges with no knowledge about the nature of his foes, on the run, and likely to be killed as he nevertheless escapes but the Guardians must essentially call him a complete write-off. Angel is the same way. He is essentially going to be swatted like a bug but the roles the Senior Partners/PTB tried to give him....

Whether Shanshu or Number 2 at WRH were essentially rejected by Angel who chose to be his own man.

Which leads back to my first quote.

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[> Re: Angel and the "The Prisoner", a study in contrasts (SPOILERS for both series) -- LittleBit (also Angel s5 and "The Prisoner" spoilers), 16:47:35 05/22/04 Sat

One other interesting point about "The Prisoner" is the we, the audience, never really know for certain if '#5' did or did not betray his government---the same question the government is trying to answer. Nor do we know if he really escapes them in the end.

We wondered for a long time just how much of the mission Angel betrayed in order to make the deal for Connor, and while we learned some things about the details of the contract we never did know the full extent of his deal. Nor do we know if Angel 'escapes' in the end.

[> [> Alot is interpretation really for both Angel and No. 6# -- Charles Phipps, 17:00:36 05/22/04 Sat

The obvious assumption in "The Prisoner" is that the Village is a creation of the British government. It's a tool for protecting their secrets and it explains why all the No. 2s appear British (that and its a British production made by Brits for Brits)

Yet, No. 6's initial objections to revealing information is because of the uncertainty it seems. Obediance could mean betraying his country and he can't kill members of the place because he might be killing his own men.

Only as the series advances does he cease to care.

With Angel we don't really know how deep he got himself yet we know he definitely got himself very deep. He was a part of the ressurection of Illyria, he did apparently keep alot of clients 'happy', and he brokered many a deal for the Demons of L.A.

It was business as usual with thosewith true loyalty to evil being very expendable in the Grand Scheme of things. Its possible others might have been recruited to the Dark Cause by Angel's capitulation

It's a tactic often used against Crusading groups

[> Joss is a big fan of "The Prisoner" -- ladyhelix, 18:43:14 05/24/04 Mon

Fun facts to know & share: Joss is a very BIG fan of the prisoner... per Doug Petri's commentary on BtVS's Season 4 episode titled "THE INITIATIVE" (the one in which Spike get's captured, chipped, and can't "perform" when he tries to kill Willow).

[> Angel and #6 -- q 3, 20:09:27 05/24/04 Mon

A random thought: would Angel's connection to Numero Cinco (not just in "The Cautionary Tale," but e.g., the jacket he is given in "The Girl in Question" that resembles the luchadore look) make him, in a more literal sense, Number Six?

[> I wish I could find again -- Chani, 09:35:55 05/26/04 Wed

what I wrote about the parallel between the two shows when the summary of The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco came out...but I've lost this message I posted on the ASSboard at the time.

Basically, I thought of Number 6 since N°5 told Angel "you will be", so according to N° 5's theory Angel would become Number 6...so from that I drew a parallel that worked (well I think it did! LOL). I even thought that Harmony was working at W&H because there was an episode in "The Prisoner" called "Living in Harmony" where Number 6 met The Kid. I saw the kid as both Connor and Spike in ATs then, because the kid died in LIH but popped up again in the last episode under another number (as well as another character, a formerly number 2) and helped the Prisoner to escape.

Too bad I didn't keep this post...*sigh*

Angel ended up as a Luchador indeed, since the fight always goes on...

Worst Angel moments for you *SPOILERS allowed* -- Charles Phipps, 14:16:38 05/22/04 Sat

Okay, over the series what DIDN'T work for you

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[> Re: Worst Angel moments for you *SPOILERS allowed* -- Ames, 14:51:11 05/22/04 Sat

The Scourge in Hero.

[> [> Oddly the Scourge were my favorite villains.... -- Charles Phipps, 16:04:32 05/22/04 Sat

Maybe its because there's a Neo-Nazi/Klan problem in my area but it was good to see Angel having to deal with a skinhead metaphor.

It's interesting to see basically the point brought out of course "Why should we care?". The Latino/Black/Minority community under siege by the Scourge is a group of people that are a disadvantaged group in society that no one cares about. They are 'Demons' by bloodline in the world of Angel but people nevertheless. Why the skinheads thrive is because they have their plight ignored because the majority (humans in this case) don't care.

There's quite a few mixed race blooded peoplein my area as well and they do their best if they can pass to pretend they are white if they can. It's just easier that way honestly than putting up with the hassel, especially in school.

The Scourge's recruitment is based on also the fundamentally flawed approach of the fact that they will make you feel important but only if you conform yourself to become clones. You become important not because of WHO you are but because of WHAT you are...pure blood, white, etc. You can't affect your status of birthright and it provides you with a liberating feeling...ironically only sustained by violence.

Maybe its because of our experiences but this episode spoke to me far more than the "real life" gentrification metaphor where Gunn was because the situation was much closer in "Hero" for the community.

Also Angel only kills one member of the Scourge, the majority live on, and are still a threat.

[> [> Re: Worst Angel moments for you *SPOILERS allowed* -- skpe, 16:04:03 05/23/04 Sun

Cordy and Conners boinking

Buffy Conference in Nashville Next Week -- David Frisby, 14:53:45 05/22/04 Sat

I'm packed and ready to go -- heading out next Thursday morning -- arriving early to see the Parthenon first -- looking forward to meeting some of the bookers (those who have written books on Buffy) such as Riess, whose recent _What Would Buffy Do_ is the best fairly short not too hard book yet -- and the panels I've chosen sound great (such as Existentialism, Hush, Witchcraft, Philosophy, Myths, Religion, Violence, Madness, the end of Angel, and Season Seven) -- and the screening and discussion of buffy videos by Luminiosity and others will be fun -- and the OMWF karaoke -- et al -- etc -- I wish there were a way to know who there also posts or lurks on the atpobuvs site -- maybe a atp sign or something -- oh well -- been waiting for this for over a year -- anyone else going?

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[> I'm going too. -- fidhle, 19:36:17 05/22/04 Sat

Hope to meet you there. Looks like a good program.

[> Re: Buffy Conference in Nashville Next Week -- MaeveRigan, 20:18:16 05/22/04 Sat

I'll be there. Looks like it's going to be huge! Should be fantastic! I enjoyed Riess's WWBD, also, and am looking forward to--well, everything--next weekend, starting with Thursday night.

It's just too bad that there are so many intriguing concurrent sessions! I'd like that "ferula gemini" demon from "The Replacement" to zap me into at least two people so I could attend more than one at a time! ;-)

A Thought About the Final Episode (kind of spoiler) -- NothingJerk, 15:32:43 05/22/04 Sat

Anyone ever consider that Angel might have unwittingly triggered the final stage of the Apocalypse?

I mean when you consider the amount of power that was called up to take revenge on Angel and his crew, it might make sense that a battle between those forces and our favorite champions would take out a large chunk of los angeles if not the eastern seaboard. Whether Angel and his friends survive the onslaught, I can imagine a Slayer army as well as human forces (maybe Riley's group) rising up to take on what the Angel crew couldnt. A battle like this could engulf the world. Picture the leaders of the world trying to nuke the demon army. Then we have the end of the woirld.

I know its kind of bleak, its just sort of a what if question.

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[> In which case its a good thing -- Charles Phipps, 15:47:13 05/22/04 Sat

I doubt personally Wolfram and Hart could have mustered the armies "waiting on the other side" to begin with. I also don't think that they have chosen to go from corrupting evil to "Evil as Destruction" like the Master.

However in which case, the battle is no longer for our souls but our bodies and Angel has given a battle that we can possibly win.

[> [> Re: In which case its a good thing -- Nothingjerk, 16:54:38 05/22/04 Sat

I agree its always easy to a battle in front of you rather than one that takes place behind your back.

Although I know that this may not be what Joss had in mind just a little wost case senario.

[> [> [> Re: In which case its a good thing (Fray Spoilers) -- SS, 18:08:53 05/22/04 Sat

Personally, I wondered if this was the beginning of the setup to what happened in the beginning of Fray, which was that a band of people banished (most) of the demons in the world.

SS

Was Lorne Xanderized in S5? *spoilers S5, i guess* -- Corwin of Amber, 17:46:12 05/22/04 Sat

By which I mean, was Lorne's character arc sacrificed this season, just as Xander's was in S7 of Buffy? Lorne was definately acting "out of character", unless there was a layer of his character that we saw no hint of until S5. Xander became "fix-it guy" and little else in S7 of Buffy, Lorne becamce...what? In earlier seasons he was the empath, a shoulder to lean on, and a mirror for the other characters to look into...this season he was not much at all.

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[> Not at all... *spoilers S5, i guess* -- Rob, 20:02:13 05/22/04 Sat

There was always a darkness to Lorne, a world-weary acknowlegment of the darkness around him, even as he tried to push it away through songs and a happy exterior. The best example from a previous season would be the final moments of Spin the Bottle, although there were hints from his very first appearance, as well as immediately after Caritas was destroyed. This season, we had a chance to see the darkness amplified to a higher degree, from a combination of his new pressures at W&H, and then Fred's death. Angel's murder of Drogyn and asking him to off Lindsey were just the final straw.

Xander was not out of character in S7; he just really stopped being developed. Lorne not only was in character as well, but had more meaty material this season than ever before, particularly since A Hole in the World. His downward spiral was of course foreshadowed in Life of the Party. Lorne's job is the Storyteller. It is when he had to dirty his own hands once too often rather than stand removed from the fight between good and evil, and find himself in increasingly morally compromising positions in the name of the greater good that it became all too much for him.

Rob

[> [> Re: Not at all... *spoilers S5, i guess* -- Ann, 05:03:31 05/23/04 Sun

Exactly Rob

"and find himself in increasingly morally compromising positions in the name of the greater good that it became all too much for him."

Lorne has become S6 Buffy. He has always used alcohol (sea breezes) to blow away the pain. He is sad, overwhelmed and depressed. He sees no good way out of this especially because of his ability to read people. Imagine the pain he is experiencing. He has his own feelings plus everyone else's. Not a fun place to be. I think his arc would be just beginning had we a none-virtual S6.

Wolf, Ram and Hart? -- meritaten, 19:23:23 05/22/04 Sat

Something has been bugging me about the name Wolfram & Hart. A number of times throughout the series, the three animals in the name, the wolf, the ram, and the hart, have been emphasized. What is the significance? Does this have something to do with a Biblical prophecy? I almost remember something about a prophecy about a ram, but I can't seem to remember anything about it. Does anyone know what I am thinking of? Does it also connect to a wolf and a hart? What do these animals symbolize?

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[> Re: Wolf, Ram and Hart? -- David, 12:58:08 05/23/04 Sun

I don't know what they symbolise but my theory is the senior partners share some charatistics with the animals like one might be savage or a warrior, etc. Or they might look a tiny bit like them and the animals were named after them since animals and humans evolved after the demons left like Giles said in Welcome to the Hellmouth.

Epiphanies are cool (spoilers "Not Fade Away") -- lunasea, 12:41:09 05/23/04 Sun

Angelus: (comes toward the young man) I will drink... the blood will wash in me, over me, and I will be cleansed. I will be worthy to free Acathla. (looks at Spike) Bear witness... (looks at Drusilla) as I ascend... (looks ahead and morphs into his game face) as I become.

He grabs the man by the hair and lifts him up, holding his head at an angle to expose his neck. He roars and bites the young man hard and fast on the neck. He drinks deeply, brings up his hand to brush it against the man's wound and then lets him fall to the floor dead. He looks at the blood on his hand. He lowers it and starts to walk slowly toward Acathla.

Angelus: Everything that I am, everything that I have done, has led me here.

(cut to scene of Angel's meeting with Whistler and seeing Buffy called)

Angelus: I have strayed, I have been lost. But Acathla redeems me. With this act, we will be free.

He grabs the hilt of the sword with both hands. A blindingly bright light emanates from it. Drusilla smiles and bathes herself in it. Angelus begins to shake with the power of the sword.

In the main hall of Angelus' mansion. He holds onto the sword tightly, trying to draw it out of Acathla. It won't budge, and a moment later a bright red flame bursts from the sword, throwing Angelus back and onto the floor.

Spike: (sing-song) Someone wasn't worthy.

****************

This scene from "Becoming" is revisited in "Power Play/Not Fade Away." The young nameless man is replaced with Drogyn who was granted eternal youth 1,000 years ago. The Archduke Sebassis refers to Angel's initiation into the Circle of the Black Thorn as having "ascended." Everything Angel is, everything he has done has led him to that moment. As he tells Nina, "There are things I have to do. Things that I've already set in motion that I...." Angel strayed, but having to fight the apocalypse puts him back on the path. With this act, he is free. Drogyn's blood isn't enough to beat Hamilton. (sing-song) Someone wasn't strong enough.

Just like in "Becoming," this scene is repeated. This time Drogyn is replaced by Marcus Hamilton. "Power Play" kicks up "Becoming" a few notches. Drinking Drogyn is referred to as "super-charged warrior juice."Not Fade Away" kicks up "Power Play" a few notches. Hamilton has the power of the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart flowing in his veins. Their ancient power is his.

Angelus is able to free Acathla only by using his own blood. When Angel drinks Drogyn he is just doing so to prove his loyalty to the Circle. When Angel drinks Hamilton, he makes his power his own. Then he is strong enough and he becomes free. No sword fight this time. Angel takes a knife out of a box, but doesn't use it. Instead this is about *his* power. Angel plays both Angelus and Acathla.

"Now, Acathla...You will be free. And so will we all." (Angelus in "Becoming) Acathla is the demon that will suck the world to hell. In "Power Play/Not Fade Away," Acathla is replaced by the Apocalypse itself. Instead of being a one shot deal where everyone goes to hell, the Apocalypse is mans inhumanity to man. It is an ongoing process that needs the wheels to be greased. For one brief, shinning moment, Angel grinds those gears to a halt. In "Becoming" Angelus wants to be free of his feelings toward Buffy. In "Power Play/Not Fade Away," that love has been expanded. Angel's sacred heart hurts.

"And is that the only thing you can find in your heart for me now, father?" (Liam in "The Prodigal")

"I know how it feels-forced to be someone you're not. Hurts to the bone. You try to bury the pain, but you can't get the hole deep enough, can you? No matter how much you dig, it's still there. Broken shards stabbing every time you breathe, cutting you up inside. You know, there's only one way to make the pain stop. Hurt someone else." (Angelus in "Release")

"When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy way to live. You have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done... and to care. I haven't fed on a living human being since that day." (Angel in "Angel")

That is the story of Angel's life, as Liam, Angelus and Angel. He does the same thing that all of us do, try to stop the pain. The world that is hard and bright and violent, harsh and cruel hurts us. It does it directly through its actions on us and indirectly through having to watch others suffer as they do. As unsouled Angelus, he doesn't care about the second part. As souled Angel, he does.

Liam, Angelus and Angel all have different ways of dealing with pain. Liam runs away and seeks comfort in the arms of women and drink. Angelus lashes out. Angel can do neither and has to find other ways. AtS for 5 seasons has been about how Angel deals with how caring affects him.

This isn't the only thing that informs Angel. This sacred heart he has in common with Buffy. He sees it in her when she is called. "I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and... and I loved you. 'Cause I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own." (Angel in "Helpless")

This pivotal moment in Angel's life gives him a way to be "someone," one of the driving forces of Angel's existence regardless of his metaphysical state. "Power Play" opens with Angel in bed with Nina. In their pillow talk he tells her, "I've spent years fighting to get somewhere...to accomplish something...." Over and over again this theme plays out in Angel's life, both through his current actions and in flashbacks we have seen.

It is this drive to be "someone" that leads him here, where ever here is. It is this drive that makes him and his path different from Buffy. Buffy never desired to be "someone." Her desire is the opposite, to be a normal girl. Angelus revels in the power he gains when he becomes a vampire and promptly shows his father what he has become. As Angel tells Lindsey, "I'm the greatest mass murderer in history." ("Not Fade Away")

Where the sacred heart of Angel and this drive to be someone intersect is where we find Angel in "Power Play/Not Fade Away." "Everything that I am, everything that I have done, has led me here." That path can be examined, starting with the events shown in "Darla."

When Angelus is first resouled, he is confused and overwhelmed by guilt. He now cares, not just about himself and his vamp family, but about all the people he murdered. "Funny. You would think with all the - people I've maimed - and killed I wouldn't be able to remember every - single - one." (Angelus to Darla in "Five-by-Five") He still thinks "I am like you." It isn't until China a few years later that he begins to realize what being resouled means, "I can't," he tells Darla when she wants him to fed off a baby to prove himself. His drive to be someone, the Uber-evil Angelus, is not as strong as his soul. This realization counts as his first major epiphany once resouled. This is what transforms Angelus into Angel. From this point on, he isn't quite good yet, but he ceases trying to be evil. Instead his life becomes trying to deal with being "trapped between who I was and who I should be." (Lawson to Angel in "Why We Fight")

Angel comes to America in 1902. He is resouled in 1898 and leaves Darla in 1900. It took him 2 years to make his way across Europe and Asia to reach China and another two years to go back so that he could catch a boat to Ellis Island. What happens in those 4 years, we don't know. In the early 20s we see him rescue a puppy from an oncoming car. He still can't handle being around humans. In 1943, he is dragged into the War Effort. When that is over, he goes underground, not really learning anything yet.

In "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been," which takes place in 1952, we see Angel try to help someone, a human being, a whole hotel of human beings. That hotel was built in the late 20's, slightly after Angel saved the puppy. Angel goes to Denver to find out how to cleanse the hotel. That event is important to Denver, "You know you changed my life that day. I mean, a vampire comes into my place looking to kill a demon to save human beings? I figured if something like *that* could happen there really must be good in the world." ("Reprise") It doesn't change Angel's. When people turn on Angel, he turns his back on them. Thesulac demon: "There is an entire hotel here full of tortured souls who could really use your help." Angel: "Take them all." Angel is not ready to take up the fight yet.

That won't happen until Sunnydale. He needs another epiphany before he is ready to commit. Angel helps Buffy for reasons he can't quite understand yet. He sees her as a way to be someone. Seeing her and the Scoobies changes his life. "Time was, I thought humans existed just to hurt each other. But then I came here. And I found out that there are other types of people. People who genuinely wanted to do right. And they make mistakes. And they fall down. You know, but they keep caring. Keep trying. If you can trust us, Faith, this can all change. You don't have to disappear into the darkness." (Angel to Faith in "Consquences")

Before this, Angel was just trying to cope with his own feelings. In the 1970s he wasn't doing such a good job. His low point is feeding off a donut shop clerk after he dies. Angel's soul acts like Spike's chip and won't let him feed off of the living. Angel tries to feed off the freshly dead. His soul even makes him feel guilty about that. Was he a little slow on the draw? Dinner by armed robbery? As long as the line is blurry, Angel's soul feels it.

Even as late as "Angel," he still hasn't figured out how to handle things. As Darla says, "You're not one of them. Are you?" Angel responds with, "No. But I'm not exactly one of you either." Angel is still consumed by the guilt of what he did. He hasn't figured out the other part to having a soul. It isn't just about past deeds, but the present. It isn't just about wanting to feed and not being able to. It is about seeing all that suffering.

"Always so concerned with the human condition. It's no big mystery, man. They suffer, they die. That's what they're there for." (Angelus in "Orpheus") Not quite always. Not until he finds some of them worthy of saving. Not until he does believe that they are there for more than suffering and dying. It is being with Buffy and the Scoobies that show him that others care and keep trying. This is Angel's second major epiphany. This epiphany just applies to those that care and keep trying. It is an important step which will eventually lead to his "Epiphany."

Angel is still trying to get a handle on understanding the human condition when The First appears to him to play on his feelings of being "someone" in order to get him to kill Buffy. Those that care and keep trying are "someone" to Angel. As Liam, he did neither. As Angelus, he did neither. As Angel in the gutter, he didn't try. "I'm so sorry. I give up. I'm gonna live in a sewer!" (Angelus mocking Angel in "Orpheus") When Angel sees Buffy called, he wants to become someone by helping her. The First wants him to "Pour all that frustration and all that guilt into *her*, and you'll be free...You were born to hurt her. " When Angel defines being someone one way, he has to act on that way, unless he redefines it.

Buffy helps him do that. In the line that launched the spin-off, Angel admits, "Look, I'm weak. I've never been anything else. It's not the demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man." Buffy explains, "Everybody is. Everybody fails." That isn't enough for Angel. He needs a reason to fight. He needs a way to deal with the pain. He doesn't yet realize where that pain comes from. As such, he can't really stop it. Instead Buffy appeals to his drive to be someone. "Angel, you have the power to do real good, to make amends. But if you die now, then all that you ever were was a monster."

This is still not quite enough to make him commit to the fight. "Am I a thing worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man? The world wants me gone!" At this point, Angel cares about something more than the world and what it wants. He cares above all else for Buffy. "What about me? I love you so much... And I tried to make you go away... I killed you and it didn't help." This makes it harder to do what he thinks he must to protect her. "Buffy, please. Just this once... let me be strong." Then Buffy gives him one more lesson, "Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together."

Angel's third epiphany is a lesson given to him by Buffy, but he has to accept it. Angel is given a way to live, he can make amends. Buffy hasn't done anything that bad, so she doesn't understand that he can't. Still, it is a way to get Angel into the fight, not because of her, but because of him. Angel no longer uses helping Buffy as a way to be someone. Now it is about being strong and fighting. It is about being more than the monster he was.

He doesn't see people as people yet. He sees them as a way to make amends. He admits to Doyle that he doesn't really care about them. Because of this, "Let me tell you something, pal, that craving is going to grow and one day soon one of those helpless victims that you don't really care about is going to look way too appetizing to turn down. And you'll figure hey! what's one against all I've saved? Might as well eat them. I'm still ahead by the numbers!" (Doyle to Angel in "City of")

Angel's connection with Doyle, Cordelia, Wesley and Gunn connect him to humans. He starts to see them as more than a vehicle to saving his own soul. The more he reaches out to others, the more he is exposed to their humanity. This causes him to feel his own humanity. In "To Shanshu in LA" Wesley worries about Angel because "there is nothing in life he wants!" Wesley is wrong. Angel wants his family to be safe. His desires aren't for himself, but for them. That is what makes Angel a hero. He is "willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he has ever known for another." (Oracles in "I Will Remember You") It starts with Buffy and his circle of concern keeps expanding.

That circle encompasses all of humanity in "Epiphany." That concern was always present, though not as strongly as it comes to be. It is that concern that causes him not to be able to feed off the baby. It is that concern that makes him save the puppy. It is that concern that causes him to try to help those at the Hyperion. It is that concern that causes him to feel for Buffy before he even meets her. He just doesn't realize it yet. He doesn't realize it until he surrenders completely to Darla and attempts to lose his soul.

He doesn't. That makes him wonder why he doesn't. He is led from question to answer to question to answer in "Epiphany" until he figures things out. "All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do." Unsouled, people are there to suffer and die. With a soul, Angel sees them as there for more. It is dealing with this more that Angel has to figure out how to do. Even he knows he hasn't figured out everything. At that point, the way he will deal with things is "Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

After "Epiphany" Angel tries to live by doing "the smallest acts of kindness." He even goes to work for the gang, instead of being boss. He tries to put aside his desire to be what would be considered "someone." That desire doesn't go away. It just gets redefined. It is constantly being redefined as Angel has his epiphanies. Angel is now someone and accomplishes something by helping others with those acts of kindness. The more he can put aside his desires to get ahead, the more he is "someone."

That works as long as those smallest acts work. He does everything right. He still can't escape his past. He manages to get beyond the guilt of being the greatest mass murderer in history. He even agrees with Darla, "We can't make up for any of it. You know that, don't you." (Darla to Angel in "Lullaby") Angel isn't concerned with making up for the past. He is more interested in helping others so they don't suffer as they do. He is concerned with his unborn child. He has something to channel his feelings into. He has a way of turning pain into strength.

Until his son is taken and he realizes even if he can deal with the guilt, his past will always haunt him. It will inform not only who he is, but what others think of him. This is driven home when Holtz, a righteous man, steals his son. Angel's past not only affects him, but it destroys his son's future. This causes Angel more pain than he's ever had to deal with. Those smallest acts of kindness can't help him.

They fail when Connor comes back as well. Angel tries those smallest acts to reach him. Some books and an invitation out to breakfast, which Angel can't even do. Even as Connor sends Angel to a watery non-grave, Angel is still trying to be his father and do those acts of kindness. "Some day you'll learn the truth - and you'll hate yourself. Don't. It's not your fault. I don't blame you...Listen to me. I love you! Never forget that...Connor?! Connor, never forget that I'm your father and that I love you." (Angel in "Tomorrow")

Being at the bottom of the ocean gave Angel an MC Esher perspective on things and led to a revision of his epiphany, thus the fifth major epiphany. "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be." In "Epiphany" his epiphany is still tied to what he does. "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. " (Angel in "Epiphany") By "Deep Down " it isn't about what they do or accomplish any more, "or even if we make a difference." Angel has tried very hard and has accomplished nothing. He can't even get his son to love him.

Angel still needs a reason to fight. "Come on, chief, give me a mission." (Lawson in "Why We Fight") Season 4, Angel has a reason to fight. He is facing his first major apocalypse on his own. If he doesn't fight, "They're all going to die-the flowers, plants, trees-without sun." (Cordelia in "Awakening") Even after Angelus brings back the sun by killing the Beast, there is still Jasmine to deal with. Angel beats Jasmine "for the boy." (Bug Priest in "Peace Out") Season 4 is more about Angel putting his beliefs into practice and coming to accept Angelus than it is epiphanies.

Season 5, all Angel is looking at is the big picture. He accepts the Senior Partner's offer for one reason, to save Connor. Lilah tries to entice him with all the resources that will allow him to be more effective, "Think of what you can do with the resources of Wolfram & Hart at your fingertips, the difference that would make. Nothing in this world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and it's cruel, but that's why there's you, Angel. You live as if the world were as it should be. With all this, you can make it that way. People don't need an unyielding champion. They need a man who knows the value of compromise and how to beat the system from inside the belly of the beast." (Lilah to Angel in "Home") Angel is not willing to take the risk of being digested, UNTIL he sees how far gone Connor is. Connor doesn't need smallest acts of kindness. He needs that champion that compromises and is willing to go into the belly of the beast in order to get a really big act, an act that champion cannot do himself. Angel is willing to do this. "Home" ends with Angel smiling. He is still in good spirits when he visits Buffy in "Chosen."

Angel is trying to focus on the big picture. He doesn't have a son to save any more. He doesn't even get to watch his son, so he can't get warm fuzzies from what he did. Instead he is faced with a man who is so self-centered that he is willing to murder his own son with a deadly virus to save himself. He tries to focus on what Lilah said in "Home." "We came to Wolfram and Hart because it's a powerful weapon, and we'll figure out how to wield it...sooner or later they'll tip their hand, and we'll find out why they really brought us here. " (Angel in "Convicition")

As the season progresses, Angel's conviction diminishes. Wesley believes Angel has lost heart because he doesn't believe in Shanshu any more. "Hope: It's the only thing that will sustain you, that will keep you from ending up like Number 5." (Wesley in "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco") Wesley is right, but Angel's hope is not fed by Shanshu. Angel's interaction with Wesley mirror his interaction with Doyle. "Look, we're getting the work done. As long as I keep doing what I do, doesn't matter if I believe in the Shanshu or any other prophecy." (Angel to Wesley in "The Cautionary Tale of "Numero Cinco") "I still save 'em. Who cares if I don't stop to chat." (Angel to Doyle in "City of")

In the belly of the beast, Angel feels "disconnected." Things really get to him. "Look, I know legal weasels and business deals aren't as heroic to you as rescuing young honeys from tumescent trolls, but I love what we do...I know you hate working here, what with the bureaucracy and the fact that most of our employees want us dead. But in-house attacks are down 30% this week. And we've done more good here in a month than Angel investigations did in a year. " (Gunn to Angel in "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco") Angel is neither Wesley, who can gain sustenance on ideas or Gunn who loves just making a difference. Angel needs to feel it. "I know what you're saying about the disconnect. Much as I love the legalese, gotta admit, I miss mixing it up sometimes, you know? I miss getting my hands dirty." (Gunn to Angel in "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco") Angel more than misses getting his hands dirty. He needs it. He will learn why in his final epiphany of the series.

Just doing good isn't enough to sustain him. Wesley thinks the promise of Shanshu will make the work more personal and meaningful. He wants Angel to want something for himself. He wants Angel to have hope that this something is attainable. He wants Angel to think there is a purpose to his stay in the belly of the beast. In "Judgment" Angel learned that working for a reward wasn't the way to go (there are lots of little epiphanies in between the bigger ones I list that lead to the bigger ones). Spike's presence complicates things. Angel's belief in Shanshu depends on several things, including his belief that he is a champion. Strong is fighting Buffy told him. A champion fights. Angel isn't fighting. He is compromising. How can Shanshu be his? He doesn't even want it badly enough. Being champion is a burden that "burns you to ashes" (Angel to Spike in "Destiny")

Angel eventually reaches his breaking point. "I can't do this anymore... Any of this. Living with it. Running Wolfram & Hart. I quit...There's nothing more to discuss. I'm resigning...Evil wins, 'cause instead of just wiping it out, we negotiate with it. Or worse...for it...It's not that you guys aren't doing your jobs. It's that we shouldn't be doing these jobs in the first place... or I shouldn't. " (Angel in "You're Welcome") In "Conviction" Angel was the motivational speaker convincing the Gang they could do this. By "You're Welcome" he hasn't learned the Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco.

Cordelia gives him his next lesson, thus contracting his circle of concern. Thesis and antithesis leads to synthesis or final epiphany of the series. "Boy, I really do fall for the dumb ones. You know how you're always trying to save, oh, every single person in the world? Did it ever occur to you you were one of them? ... Well, you made the list, gorgeous. And you needed some help." (Cordelia to Angel in "You're Welcome") Just like with Buffy in "Amends," it is given to him, but he has to accept it.

She gives him something else as well. In their final kiss, her visions temporarily pass to Angel. The PTB's visions put him back on the path. Angel will have to do some things he doesn't want to in order to see "the faces of evil" (Angel in "Power Play") He is willing to because he decides to "serve no master but your ambition." (Angel remembering the advice given to him by Ilyria in "Time Bomb") His ambition is to be someone.

"Angel dedicated his life to helping others, not because he had to, but because it was a path he'd chosen. If he's been swayed from that influence maybe there's still time we can bring him back. He'd do the same for any of us regardless of our actions." (Wesley in "Power Play") The gang goes to him to bring him back to the path of helping others. Instead of bringing him back to *that* path, Angel takes them to another. Angel's ambition to be someone cannot conflict with his sacred heart. However, the sacred heart can be assuaged with more than rescuing girls in alleys. The PTB's show him another way, "kill every member of the Circle of the Black Thorn." (Angel in "Power Play")

Spike cannot refuse to do this any more than Lindsey can. Spike has no woman in his life to trump his love of a good fight. Angel is giving him the ultimate fight. "Kill them all. Burn the house down." (Spike in "Power Play") Wesley does not intend to die, but he doesn't have a reason to live either. He can think of no logical reason why *he* shouldn't participate. Gunn is all about the mission and the mission is to fight the baddies. Angel has given him the ultimate opportunity to do this. Once he accepts, even Anne's words cannot dissuade him. We don't see Lorne raise his hand. Lorne cannot be disloyal and be the one to prevent the gang from doing this. Instead, he will not stick around so that he will be put in a similar position next time.

Angel's new path isn't about small acts of kindness or even being an example. Instead he has finally found a reason to fight that doesn't depend on how it affect the world. His circle of concern has been shrunk to himself and his epiphany is not about others. "Maybe they're not there to be beat. Maybe they're there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes humans so remarkably strong...I keep thinking that once the world was theirs and now it's not." (Angel to Lindsey in "Not Fade Away") His first epiphany was "I can't." His last one is "I can."

Angel thought that being strong allowed us to fight. In "Not Fade Away" he realized that fighting is what makes us strong. "You never know your strength until you're tested." (Angel to Doyle in "Hero") Angel has wanted to be someone, to be strong. He sets up the ultimate fight in order to become strong, to become who he is. This fight does not contradict his sacred heart. He might actually do some good.

Marcus Hamilton doesn't understand why Angel fights. He's given up his precious Shanshu. There is nothing in it for him, or so Hamilton thinks. He even tries to beat Angel mentally by mentioning that he isn't someone. He is a failure. He has failed everyone around him, Doyle, Cordelia, Fred. None of this gets to Angel. "You really don't care about anything. You'll never understand the people that do." (Angel to Hamilton in "Not Fade Away")

"It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. " It doesn't even matter what we show to whom, "But we won't care." (Hamilton to Angel in "Not Fade Away") What matters is what we do. What matters is who we are. What matters is that we fight. Lawson wanted Angel to give him a mission. Angel had to dust Lawson, just like the search for the answer to "Why We Fight" was destroying Angel. Angel discovered the question is the answer. We don't fight for something. We fight to become something. Fighting makes us someone. That is why Angel needs to fight. He needs to be someone.

That is not Buffy's path and that is why Buffy could not be there. Anne is the Kate of "Not Fade Away." "I got cut a huge break and I believe... - I don't know what I believe, but I - have - faith. - I think maybe we're not alone in this... Because I never invited you in." (Kate to Angel in "Epiphany") For those who still need an external reason to fight, the furniture needs to be loaded on the truck.

Angel isn't loading furniture any more. He isn't being an example to show the world what it can be. The only one Angel needs to show anything to is himself. In that he is showing the world the most powerful thing there is. Not choice. Not love. Not conviction. Not mercy. Not hope. "Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?" (Angelus to Buffy in "Becoming")

Me

Joss named his production company correctly.

Replies:

[> Re: Epiphanies are cool (spoilers "Not Fade Away") -- skpe, 16:01:50 05/23/04 Sun

Verry impresive senopsis of the Angel arc.I wonder If joss had S6 how do you think he would have contiued. how would he have completed the arc with a whole season not just a couple of ep's

[> [> season 6 and beyond (spoilers "Not Fade Away") -- lunasea, 17:35:42 05/23/04 Sun

I think Angel's final epiphany is very interesting because it illustrates the Hegelian Dialect wonderfully (Masq may need to add a new section to the Philosophies Represented section of ATPo. I'm not sure if that is there yet.) Angel's earlier epiphanies all deal with the importance of helping others. Perhaps if Greenwalt had stayed in control, they would have continued in that direction. Perhaps the change in direction of the epiphanies was led by a change in Captain of the ship. Or perhaps what Cordelia teaches Angel in "You're Welcome" is a natural outgrowth of that original direction. Inside the idea that I want to help others is I want to help myself. From this conflict the synthesis arises, Angel's final epiphany.

Angel's dual nature leads to a conflict of motivations. What his conscience wants him to do is like a knife in his demon gut. What his demonic nature wants is not allowed by his conscience. Out of this conflict he asks the question repeatedly "Why do we fight?" I glossed over season 4 in my synopsis, but it is important, because Angel gets to be Angelus again. He gets to experience that side of him fully. Instead of why do we fight, it's why bother. Faith soldifies for him why we fight. "I need you to fight" can easily translate to a world that needs Angel to fight for them. That is even why he tells the Bug Priest he fights."I'm trying to save my world...It needs me."

But that isn't why Angel fights. He fights for "the boy" even though "He will never love you." In that world, Angel cares most for two things, "the woman" and "the boy." In the seeds of caring about the world in general is its antithesis, caring for certain individuals. Angel loses both boy and woman and is sent back to the thesis of caring for the world. Synthesis isn't necessary yet. The conflict has been dealt with by circumstances.

Conflict arises again because thesis is not enough to sustain Angel. Cordy presents him with a new antithesis, that he is one of the helpless to be saved. From this idea that both the world and he shouldn't suffer, a synthesis is formed, which becomes his new thesis.

The next season would involve exploring that thesis, finding the antithesis and maybe even generating a new sythesis. The antithesis to fighting to become what we are is not fighting to become what we are. In us is fighter and not-fighter. Lorne has been removed from the group because he isn't a fighter. Angel will need to find out that there is more to life than fighting. From that he can learn:

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven...
a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance...
a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to throw away..."
(Ecclesiastes 3:1-6)

A time to fight and a time not to fight. The Masculine fight of Angel can meet with some Feminie idea in order to present a more complete human.

[> [> [> That should be Dialectic not Dialect, oops -- lunasea, 17:36:58 05/23/04 Sun

[> This was amazing. Thanks. -- Evan, 20:24:19 05/24/04 Mon

The signiture -- Seven, 18:01:18 05/23/04 Sun

Should we make note of the following?

Angel signs away the possibility of his role in the Shanshu prophecy. However, let's take a closer look.

His signiture is odd and sloppy. We have seen his signiture before (Cautionary tale, Origin) and it is immaculate. Also, ME makes it a point to show us the signiture and also makes the comment later in the show that Angel has "great handwriting" (to which Conner calls him a girl.)

Should we assume maybe that wasn't his signiture somehow? Like he had someone else from afar take over his form for a moment while he signed away? Not likely, but that wasn't his usual signiture and it was made clear that he writes extremely well.

Not really pushing for it here, mind you. I'd actually rather see Spike Shanshu than Angel, but what do you guys think. Plausible? (PlausAble?)

7

Replies:

[> Re: The signiture (spoilers for 5.22) -- CW, 05:17:52 05/24/04 Mon

I watched it in slow-mo. The A is open and looks like a 'u.' The N was written almost sideways. The rest is sloppy but looks normal. I have no idea what ME's mystic interpretation would be, but it looks like a signature and he did produce it.

Some us have also been debating whether it means anything anyway. Destinies have been losable before on AtS. But, I'm not sure that this was anything more than something that the Circle of the Black Thorn could hold over Angel. Angel did not, for example, write anything specifically declaring his rejection of the prophecy, nor was there anything so crass as an 'if the vampire with a soul signs this' clause in the prophecy. Now that the circle is gone, I'm not sure the signature means anything.

[> [> Angel deserves to be happy, Spike's happiness is independent of humanity -- Charlemagne20, 11:40:00 05/24/04 Mon

Angel loathes being a vampire
Spike doesn't care

There's no reason to Shanshu for him.

I believe Angel's sloppy handwriting is a signal of how disdainful he is of this whole business yet how much pain it causes him. he's not just signing away his prophecy but also his life...he will die because of this.

In any case ironically he may have fufilled his destiny, he killed every last member of the Circle of the Black Thorn and may have stopped the apocolypse

[> [> [> Re: Angel deserves to be happy, Spike's happiness is independent of humanity -- Wizard, 14:10:50 05/24/04 Mon

Or set it off. We only know that the vampire with a soul has a crucial role to play. We don't know what it is.

[> [> [> [> Re: Angel deserves to be happy, Spike's happiness is independent of humanity -- leslie, 19:24:44 05/24/04 Mon

Some thoughts:

We still don't really know what "shanshu" means. Becoming a "real boy" is still only a guess, and, as so often mentioned, "apocalypse" has a plural form in the Buffyverse. The only thing that seems clear is that it involves some sort of change of state. My own feeling, given the general heirarchy of beings in the Buffyverse and the ambiguity of the translation, is that it means to become a being who is neither human nor vampire, but perhaps carrying the best part of both--conscience, morality, compassion from the human, strength and the ability to live in both worlds from the vampire. One could argue, of course, that if this were the case, both Angel and Spike have effectively shanshu'ed by becoming vampires with souls; I might argue in return that what "shanshu" means is that a vampire with a soul realizes that this is a good thing and does not spend his unlife moping around about how he's never going to atone for all the evil he's done so he might as well become the CEO of an evil interdimensional law firm.

I would say that further doubt about the meaning of "shanshu" is cast by Wesley's ultimate end. I loved the guy, but what I found particularly tragic about his end was that it proved that everyone was right about him all along: in the end, he was a failure. He didn't kill Vail, Illyria/Fred did. Yet he alone was the one who, during that last day, said that he had every intention of surviving. Wes just isn't to be trusted when it comes to prophecy, not because he's deceitful (like Sahjan) but because on some very elemental level he doesn't understand how it works.

As to who shanshu's: I'd just like to point out an interesting structural parallel in Spike's "last day." He goes to a poetry jam and recites the poem that was last read aloud the night that he was vamped. It could be argued that this poem, and its derisive reception, was actually the catalyst that caused his vamping, ie, his change of state from human to vampire. Now, having acquired a soul and saved the world once, he recites the poem again to thunderous applause. Is it too much to wonder whether this second recital, and its postive reception, is the mark or catalyst for him to make yet another change of state, from vampire into.... something more than human or vampire? Clearly he has come full circle, so if he does survive, I don't see how it could be as just the same old Spike.

[> [> [> [> [> Regarding poetry (Spoilers Not Fade Away) -- s'kat, 14:33:11 05/25/04 Tue

Agreed on most of this.

One note on the poem though - are you *sure* it's exactly the same as the one he recited all those years ago, or did he change it somewhat? The first four lines seem different to me - and the line before effulgent is also changed slightly. The poem itself has taken on a new form, evolved along with the character, been subtley alterred with experience.

This may be a analogy for what you describe above. And it makes sense after all - when one writes a poem, one often alters words and phrases until it works - it seldom if ever works the first time, it takes many revisions. Just as we go through many stages and revisions through our lives.

Can anyone, I wonder provide the text for the poem recited in Fool for Love and the poem recited in Not Fade Away?
I'm sure this isn't my imagination - more changed than just the delivery. Also - both poems were written by the same writer, Joss Whedon, approximately 3 years(?) apart, just as fictionally they were written by the same man, but 140 years apart.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Regarding poetry (Spoilers Not Fade Away) -- leslie, 16:17:06 05/25/04 Tue

I believe that in Fool for Love, we only heard the ending couplet ("my heart expands...") which is the same in this reading--we just didn't hear the earlier part before (and I'm assuming that we still haven't heard the whole thing--William the Bloody Awful Poet did not strike me as one who aimed for economy in expression). I also have to wonder, how much of the reception of the poem depends on the physical impression given by the person reading it, as well as the change in audience and the change in literary taste over the last 124 years? Does Spike get a good reception because he looks like a punk rocker, sprawled over the stage drunk beyond belief, and he's reciting this very ornate, Victorian (more literally than his audience realizes) poetry, versus the reception that William gets, not just because he's written tripe but because he's a shy, diffident mommy's boy? When Spike recites the poem, he looks cool; when it's taken from William, he's all a-twitter and the reader is obviously hostile. Or, indeed, is the fact that this time Spike recites the poem himself, willingly, a sign that he has accepted his Williamness and is willing to William in public? (Let's face it, this season he realized that the only person who ever authentically liked his poetry was Angel, and Angel thinks Barry Manilow is swell.) In any case, if Spike reciting the poem in public is a sign of his acceptance of both sides of himself, William and Spike, that goes along with my sense of "shanshu" as indicating a melding of vampire and human (and given that this is something that has never happened before, until there were souled vampires around, that would explain why the word is so difficult to translate--not a lot of use for it! Though now I suddenly wonder--those gypsies seemed to have a re-souling spell surprisingly handy when they needed it--how many times have they used it?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> souls and gypsy spells -- purplegrrl, 14:41:59 05/26/04 Wed

***"shanshu" as indicating a melding of vampire and human (and given that this is something that has never happened before, until there were souled vampires around, that would explain why the word is so difficult to translate--not a lot of use for it! Though now I suddenly wonder--those gypsies seemed to have a re-souling spell surprisingly handy when they needed it--how many times have they used it?)***

Prophecy doesn't have to have the ability to come true when it is written. Most aren't. For example: the prophecies of Nostradamus and, to a lesser extent, the apocraphal books of the Bible. Difficulty in translating a prophecy is what keeps things lively!! ;-)

The gypsy re-souling spell was basically a curse. And as such you only need one. You can just use it over and over -- Angel's original cursing-with-a-soul 100+ years ago and then Willow's re-souling of him in Season 2.

Spike's re-souling was the reward for passing a test -- a commitment test, if you will.

As for the confusion about whether Angel or Spike is the one to shanshu -- therein lies one of the inherent difficulties with prophecies. They can be translated/interpreted to mean whatever someone wants them to mean.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: souls and gypsy spells -- leslie, 09:01:41 05/27/04 Thu

Except that the gypsy spell/curse was apparently well-known enough that a magic-store owner in Southern California could know that "the spell" was lost or untranslatable, the equipment for it is readily available even if its true use is currently impossible, and the spell itself exists in written form, even if no-one knows what it means. This all strikes me as the standard motif of "lost knowledge of the ancients" which frankly underlies virtually all of the research the Scoobies, the Watchers' Council, and AI (especially Wesley and Fred) undertake throughout the run of both series: knowledge that was known and used in the past but which has fallen into disuse, usually through the demise of the peoples who held it, and which must be recovered through translation and comparative mythology and etymology in the present. But this material would no exist even in fragmented form now if it had not been of general interest or usefulness in the past. I mean, those orbs of Thessala or whatever it was called are made to hold souls temporarily while they are being transfered from point A to point B, and there are many of them (the store keeper says people buy them as paperweights, which is apparently what Giles did with his and he keeps them in stock)--their manufacture is not a lost art. The more I think about this, the more I think that this re-souling of vampires is something the gypsies have done before as a punishment; my guess is that all the other vampires staked themselves quickly because they couldn't bear it.

[> Re: The signiture -- Evan, 20:27:33 05/24/04 Mon

Interesting point about him mentioning his good handwriting.

But - hadn't he just been stabbed in the hand??? That's why I thought his signature looked so weird. I can't remember if he was stabbed in the same hand that he signs with, though.

My analysis of "Not Fade Away" is up -- Masquerade, 18:41:48 05/23/04 Sun

My very last Buffyverse episode analysis ever... or, for the time being. I won't miss giving up my Sundays. But I'm really going to miss having a regular outlet for stretching my philosophy muscles.

Expect continued updates of the site as I find more salty philosophical goodness in reruns. And mistakes on my 90 some odd web pages.

Replies:

[> Nitpick--It's not a machete -- Majin Gojira, 03:44:13 05/24/04 Mon

Wesley is stabbed with a Kukri Knife. the blade is angled to do more damage.

[> [> Yep, it is a kukri. -- CW, 04:56:13 05/24/04 Mon

[> [> [> Thanks -- Masq, 05:40:06 05/24/04 Mon

Well, obviously I won't be the weapons expert in the Season 6 fic!

[> [> [> [> Though why someone would try and stab with a kukri is beyond me -- Doug, 05:53:08 05/24/04 Mon

A kukri is a hacking blade, the forward curving edge makes it great for decapitation or hacking off other limbs. A good blow from a skilled user can easily take the head off of a man or animal. But to stab someone you would have to throust in at an angle just to get what little point there is to pierce the skin. Of course Vail's power probably could grant him enough augmented strength to stab someone like that, and then twist the blade around like that (which, since the blade is curved and he was twisting at right angles to the edge, would require a whole lot of strength).

And I may be able to give a little bit of weapon advice on the season 6 fic.

[> Hamilton, Angel, Lorne, and Lindsey (spoilers, duh) -- skeeve, 08:16:43 05/24/04 Mon

I think it metaphysically significant that Angel
drank Hamilton's blood in order to kill him.
It should have been worth a mention.

Do we know that Angel told Lorne to kill Lindsey?
If I missed it because of a tornado warning,
ignore this paragraph, otherwise it's a reasonable
inference if it isn't regarded as a certainty.
Lorne might have killed Lindsey on his own initiative.
That said, I don't see how either Angel or Lindsey
could have expected Lindsey take over W&H.
It not like the senior partners could
have been expected to cooperate.

[> [> To the Victor goes the Spoils (WRH post Senior Partners) -- Charles Phipps, 11:29:39 05/24/04 Mon

The organization's infrastructure doesn't say "owned by interdimensional demons". It's temporal resources, wealth, etc are all in Angel's name

Lindsey could become one of the richest men on the planet without supernatural aid (kinda) simply by killing the Black Thorn and seizing legally what they own

Also perhaps leading all the wandering strays without their Conduit

[> [> [> Re: To the Victor goes the Spoils (WRH post Senior Partners) -- skeeve, 06:44:46 05/25/04 Tue

The victor would be the senior partners.
Remember the holding cell.

[> sanshu -- skeeve, 08:55:18 05/24/04 Mon

It's worth noting that the Oracles apparently
believed that the sanshu prophecy could be beaten.
If true, there is no reason to suppose it could
not be beaten by being repudiated in Angel's blood.

Were the PTB planning to keep
Angel alive to earn his reward?
If not, the reward wouldn't be all that useful.
Angel knows how to become human without help from the PTB.
He just needs to know when Buffy
doesn't need him to be a vampire anymore.

All this is relevant to how willing
Angel would be to sign away his sanshu.

[> Something from "I will remember you" -- Rufus, 18:43:05 05/24/04 Mon

I just found the wording interesting..

Woman holds out her hand and the watch flies to her: "I like Time. There is so little and so much of it."

Man: "Well?"

Angel: "What's happened to me?"

Woman steps to one side of Angel: "It's true then, brother."

Man on Angel's other side: "He is no longer a warrior."

Angel: "It was the demon's blood. It wasn't the Powers-That-Be that did this?"

Man: "The Powers-That-Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?"

So, was that Angel's role all the time, not to win an apocalypse (battle of an) but to avert one? This would make sense of knocking off all the power players on this plane of existence. No big guns, no apocalypse...for now.

[> [> Re: Something from "I will remember you" -- Masq, 19:12:47 05/24/04 Mon

The kind of apocalypse ME has been pushing since season 2 of Angel, however, is a perpetual apocalypse, one that can never be averted, only balanced with good. Angel was there, alive, providing the balance, and going into battle like that, risking (almost certain) death, he seemed to be giving up his responsibility in maintaining balance.

Not that that's a bad thing, since the balance isn't just his responsibility, but the collective responsibility of all warriors of good.

[> Frustration! -- DickBD, 12:07:06 05/25/04 Tue

Am I the only one spinning his wheels here? I keep getting "Origin" and seemingly can't get to "Not Fade Away." I have tried the refresh button at various stages. (It is hard to believe that I have been using computers for twenty years now. Maybe there is some truth about an old dog learning new tricks!)

[> [> Re: Frustration! -- Masq, 15:11:23 05/25/04 Tue

Other than clearing your whole browser cache, I can't think of anything else to suggest.

Except maybe reading it on the mirror site.

[> [> [> That did it, Masq, thanks! -- DickBD, 10:58:27 05/26/04 Wed

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