May 2003 posts

Angel and Buffy, And Poor Spike (Spoilers) -- AngelFan, 05:01:29 05/14/03 Wed

What did everyone think of the Buffy and Angel kiss last night. I was actually very happy except that Spike had just told Buffy that he had had the best night of his life with her. I dont think that Angel and Buffy are going to get back together but it was a cute reunion.

[> Blech! -- CaptainPugwash, 05:06:38 05/14/03 Wed

I wanted to puke; it was all 'Oh! Angel!' - 'Oh! Buffy!' blah blah blech...

I thought Buffy was moving towards a deeper and more profound understanding with the men in her life (Xander, Spike, Angel); a kind of grown up non-possessive platonic kind of thing.

Somehow, Buffy and Angel (as presented last night) seemed so conventional and backward. BORING!

[> [> Got to hope -- mamcu, 06:29:33 05/14/03 Wed

Got to hope this is part of whatever plot will move Spike on to AtS--and also in there just to twist us around with a better resolution next time. I agree otherwise. I have to expect that Buffy and Angel will REALLY be where Xander and Anya thought they were, realizing that it really is over. Since Angel is continuing but Buffy is not, either Buffy will have to die or Angel and Buffy will have to end things. Of course, that goes for Spike too.

[> [> [> What a Waste! -- Rina, 07:58:16 05/14/03 Wed

What was he doing there? What the hell was Angel doing there? Talk about a waste of my time! Not only was the scene badly acted (at least on DB's part), I saw more spark in the Buffy/Spike conversation than I did in the Buffy/Angel kiss. Hell, I saw more spark in Spike's reaction than the kiss.

[> [> [> [> The acting -- dream, 08:02:20 05/14/03 Wed

My roommate's girlfriend kept asking if he was supposed to be evil. "Did W & H make him evil already? Why is he acting like Angelus?" Honestly, I couldn't tell if that was intentional or not - was there supposed to be something strange about him, or was the acting just a little odd? Don't know.

[> [> [> [> [> It's called being happy. Watch IWRY to see how he looks when that happens -- lunasea, 08:56:20 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Nope. I won't. -- dream, 09:23:43 05/14/03 Wed

Because you see, I dislike the show Angel and don't watch it, as has come up many times. I wouldn't trust my own judgment on Angel's character, because I don't like him much either. But my roommate's girlfriend and, for that matter, my roommate like Angel just fine, but they were both confused by the acting. They didn't understand what he was supposed to be expressing. I also thought he seemed something other than happy - a little smarmy, a little off. So I was asking a legitimate question - did others find the acting off (because giving off smarmy/possibly evil vibes when you're going for happy does seem like off acting to me), or do they think there was something deliberate going on? Not finding anything off is also a reasonable answer to my query. I assume that's what you're trying to say, in your inimitable way.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> An answer? Was Angel off? From someone who watches Ats -- sk, 10:15:41 05/14/03 Wed

I've seen IWRY and all the Angel episodes. Have IWRY on tape and am one of the few people who actually liked it.
(Lots of fans hate that episode for some reason.) And I love Angel.

And he was off. When he first showed up I thought he was the FE. If you've been watching Ats at all this year, his reactions seemed very odd almost Angel S2? Also their
chemistry? Sorry they used to have the hottest chemistry, Forever - that kiss was hot. Their scenes in IWRY - very good. This? I thought W/K was hotter and I'm not gay. It could just be me. (Although in interviews DB did imply he wasn't much one for interviews and while it was easy to step back into it, it felt weird. DB isn't great at generating chemistry when he's uncomfortable - note what happened with A/C as an example.)

OTOH Some people really loved it. How many of those folk are die-hard B/A shippers though, is hard to calculate.
Just as it's hard to calculate how many of the people turned off by it were die-hard B/S shippers or B/X shippers. At any rate? I wouldn't worry about it too much, I think Rufus and Buffyboy are right on this one, it's not that important. It was only there to make us question what Spike will do next.

In a way the kiss is another test for Spike. Will he do the right thing - even if he can't have Buffy and has proof positive she'll always go for Angel?

Also, and I'm not spoiled on this - but I'm guessing that Angel leaves in the early part of the next episode. Shame.
I'm dying for that Spike/Angel discussion on the soul.
Far more interesting to me than who gets Buffy. But then I'm not really a Buffyshipper.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think it was a (air quotes) classic (close air quotes) B/A moment -- cjl, 11:02:04 05/14/03 Wed

IT looked like any other B/A moment from BtVS S2--Angel with his confident grin and Buffy racing into his arms and giving him a big smooch.

And that, of course, was why it looked so weird.

We're not in high school anymore. It's a new millennium. So much has happened to both characters that the "absolute perfect love" of those first two seasons seems to have been lost a million years ago.

But the glory of First Love never dies. Buffy and Angel haven't made commitments to anyone else (unlike flirty boy Riley in AYW). Buffy is still figuring out her feelings for Spike and Angel has pretty much given up on Cordelia ("Sacrifice"). So when they meet, they fall into the old patterns again, for one nostalgia-filled B/A moment. It's sweet, but they both know it isn't real.

Unfortunately, Spike doesn't know it isn't real. It's through his eyes that we see the "off-ness" of the scene. He's the embodiment of the events of the past three years, and he resents this little trip down memory lane.

I think the scene worked exactly the way Joss, JE and DP intended it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree. -- Arethusa, 11:16:00 05/14/03 Wed

On the surface, it was everything a fan might want. Confident, smiling Angel, kick-ass Buffy, rousing music. But we all know under the surface is years of baggage-Spike, Cordy, Connor, Joyce, Jasmine, everything that can't be ignored for more than a few moments. Nearly everthing else has been revisited through adults eyes this year-Faith, the high school, etc. Now it's B/A's turn.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly. -- Caroline, 11:20:56 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good points cjl, Arethusa -- ponygirl, 11:31:19 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! You hit it on the head. "A few moments." That's what happened -- Random, 12:57:37 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Right. That's what the end has to be like: -- mamcu, 13:02:18 05/14/03 Wed

To see the beginning again through the lens of everything that has happened.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think it was a (air quotes) classic (close air quotes) B/A moment -- Dariel, 13:08:43 05/14/03 Wed

Excellent--now the scene makes perfect sense. It also harkens back to the S2 A/S/D triangle. Back then, Spike wasn't evil enough for Dru to choose; now, he's not good enough for Buffy to choose him. And that damn Angel, seemingly, gets the girl again.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope. I won't. -- Caroline, 10:16:04 05/14/03 Wed

dream, I had the same response as you. There was something off in the acting and I think the cheesy music was supposed to clue us into something not being right. My other problem with it was the context. I have been watching AtS and Angel's just come off Cordy's coma, sacrificing his own desire to be with Connor for Connor's own good and making a deal with the devil. I can buy that he would be happy to see Buffy (and she him) but not that he would be so smarmy and cocky about it. I also got the feel that Angel was being a bit too Angelus - I guess we wait to find out next week.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Depends on the time difference between "Home" and "End of Days" -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:52:42 05/14/03 Wed

Though, Angel reminded me of Angelus in "Sacrafice", sitting on the sidelines, watching two other people duke it out, and making quips about the guy he was betting on to lose.

However, we don't know how long after "Home" this ep took place, so it can be difficult to judge, as Angel may or may not have had time to simmer.

Of coure, we have no clue what happened during the Season 6/3 meeting between them, so it can be hard to judge what sort of air it's appropriate to have around each other (after all, how we act is largely affected by who is around us).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree on the weirdness -- Dariel, 10:56:48 05/14/03 Wed

Agree on the Angel being off business. That remark, when Buffy and Caleb were fighting--"I miss watching this" or something like? Really weird and casual after he and Buffy have been apart so long. If it had been said wistfully it might have made more sense.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, seemed very Angelus to me, too -- that's why I thought maybe the FE, like others. -- yez, 12:07:18 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> Blech, amen! -- luminesce, 08:45:08 05/14/03 Wed

No kidding!

Also, the passionate kiss was thoroughly inconsistent with the current characterizations and story lines of *both* these characters. Doesn't Angel have bigger personal issues right now than Buffy? Like a son? Like a girlfriend in a coma? Doesn't Buffy have bigger personal concerns than Angel?

If I were going to write that scene, I'd have had Angel lurk in the shadows, wanting to help Buffy and speak with her, but resisting the temptation because he knows it's dangerous for him and for her...and then have him leave the talisman/whatever with Giles or Willow.

But then again, since we can't predict from week to week whether Willow is going to be afraid to try magic, or capable of re-ensouling Angel, or incapable of doing the smallest locator spell, it's probably too much to expect consistent characterization for Buffy, Angel, Xander, or anyone else.

[> Re: Angel and Buffy, And Poor Spike (Spoilers) -- Dee (just visiting), 06:32:11 05/14/03 Wed

I thought the scene with Buffy and Spike was amazing. I thought the chemistry was the best I'd ever seen, until she was with Angel. Now THAT was chemistry! I don't know who I'd like her to end up with.....if I could choose.

[> [> Re: Angel and Buffy, And Poor Spike (Spoilers) -- graylady, 07:42:24 05/14/03 Wed

Still pondering it, but Buffy's enthusiastic kissing of Angel seemed to cheapen and lessen the meaning of the earlier, more poignant exchange between her and Spike. In fact, Buffy seemed to be pushing Spike toward a revelation of his feelings. But, why? She didn't reveal much of hers.

[> [> [> The Buffy/Angel moment was purely a shout out for the B/A shippers IMO -- Miss Edith, 12:25:03 05/14/03 Wed

Both David Borenez and Sarah Michelle Geller have stated recently that Buffy and Angel are each others true love. David had a problem with playing an attraction to Charisma's character. And Sarah has played down any romantic possibilites with Buffy and Spike, stating that Buffy loves and cares for Spike, but she is not in love with him and it will always be Angel.

And I thought the B/A moment was pretty cheesy but then I have always thought that of the couple with quotes such as, "When you kiss me I want to die". I always see it as a cheesy high school melodaram so it fit with my image of the couple. Angel did seem smug when he said about missing this but I'm not sure whether that means he was Angelus or the First Evil? Angel "We're Champions" has often come across as smug to me anyway. JMHO.

I'm not a shipper, and have no interest in love triangles, so it wasn't really aimed at me. I am hoping Spike and Angel share some interesting discussions on Spike getting a soul and the ramifications of that. Angel was Spike's "yoda" in the past, Angel should be relieved that his prodigy followed his example. Not to mention the weight off Angel's shoulders that his grandsire is no longer killing. I have my fingers crossed that the finale doesn't end up with Angel and Spike simply squabling over Buffy.

[> [> [> [> A little something about acting in tv and film -- sk, 20:58:16 05/14/03 Wed

I wouldn't worry. DB and SMG aren't the writers, they are servants employed and paid more money than we can imagine to do what the writers and directors tell them to do. Hired hands. That's it. The thing we forget in watching tv and film is how little effect the actors really have. We think they have the most effect - because hey they are up front and center. They do the publicity. They are the ones we see each week. The ones we pay money for posters of and lust after.

But! As those in the know have often stated - the actor comes in and says his/her lines and does hundreds of takes until he/she delivers what the writer/director wants. Then the writer/director goes into the editing room and edits it together cutting and pasting and if something doesn't work?
Forcing the actor to come back and reshoot it. If the actor slips up? They get blamed. So acting is a risky business.
But truth is? The actor is in reality a cog in the wheel, a tiny peice of a huge collaborative work. They can't sell a story line by showing chemistry on screen? Then that's bad acting. And some casting agent might think twice. Truth to tell - depends on who you talk to - there are tons of A/C shippers who saw the chemistry between DB and CC. And Buffy and Spike? Radiated chemistry. Actually I saw more chemistry between B/S than B/A, which is odd...considering the actors attitudes.

If this was the stage? Then yes, SMG and DB would have a say. But not in tv and film. They are just hired hands.

So I'd ignore any take these actors have on their characters, they only play them, not create them. Heck look at James Marsters - he believed last year that Spike would never ever get a soul, that he was evil and getting his chip out. Marsters isn't Spike. Any more than Sara Michelle Gellar will ever be Buffy. They just play the parts. It's important to remember Actors aren't the Characters and the Characters aren't the Actors. The only people who know these characters are their true creators - the writers.

[> [> [> [> [> oh amend that -- s'kat, 21:05:36 05/14/03 Wed

So I'd ignore any take these actors have on their characters, they only play them, not create them.

Don't completely ignore. The good actor interviews will tell us cool things about the process - how the art is put together, how it works, and what their role is. They will tell us how they prepare for the part and what goes through their head as they do so.

The ones to read are James Marsters, Alexis Denisof, Anthony Stewart Head, Alyson Hannigan - who have all said interesting things regarding the craft. The others? They
rarely discuss the craft. Although Boreanze has occassionally. His last two interviews actually touched on it. I've never seen Gellar do so.

[> [> [> [> [> Actors say what they are paid to say -- lunasea, 10:35:58 05/15/03 Thu

That includes interviews. The wordings of a lot of comments this season, especially from JM, have been very specific. Still waiting for the romantic ending "for Spike and for Buffy."

Last season, Greenwalt had David Boreanaz (tomorrow is his birthday. He'll be 32) saying Buffy was just a crush and when she wasn't around, Angel lost interest. This season's interviews have been a complete 180. Think that comes from DB? The words for his interviews match up almost exactly. It is like someone (say Joss) handed him index cards with the answers on them. He is playing yet another role when he does interviews. He doesn't come up with his own answers about the characters. He tends to duck questions he can't answer or isn't allowed to.

The writers have control of the characters, but where do you think the actor's answers come from? Same place. The actors are just more amazing to gaze at when they talk.

[> [> [> [> [> [> LMAO! -- s'kat, 18:59:39 05/15/03 Thu

Actually actors aren't paid to say anything in interviews.
I know a few and they make huge faux pas all the time.
Some are very good about it. Some not so good.

And to answer your idiotic assumption. NO for the final time, I don't want Spike with Buffy. I want Buffy alone.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> So, you want Buffy for yourself do you...<g>...snerk.....kick me.....;):):):):):):):) -- Rufus, 02:01:13 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: So, you want Buffy for yourself do you...<g>...snerk.....kick me.....;):):):):):):):) -- sk, 06:41:31 05/17/03 Sat

Actually I was sort of hoping for the Spike/Angel sandwich, also want Xander and maybe Gunn, prefer Giles and Wes (but you took them - you evil woman!) - you already took Giles, Wes, Riley and Wood. Excuse me Ruf - but you can't take all the guys - I should have some.

[> [> Re: Angel and Buffy - What Chemistry? -- Rina, 08:13:46 05/14/03 Wed

What chemistry between Buffy and Angel? It was so forced! Heck, Spike's reaction to the kiss had more spark!

[> [> I was mildly spoiled (spoilers) -- lunasea, 09:33:32 05/14/03 Wed

Actually, more than mildly. When Wildfeed came out Monday, I had to see how the final scene, which is where I knew Buffy/Angel would be, went. I ONLY read that one paragraph and I was overjoyed. I was bouncing and squealing like teens at an IN*SYNC concert (or whatever other boy band is popular now). My kids started to worry about me.

It wasn't the kiss that was so amazing, though I do think those two have great chemistry, always have. I can't wait to see how the kiss progresses. Buffy/Angel kisses rarely stay one way. It started out as a great "It's great to see you" kiss but somehow I bet the longing will start to come out next episode (along the lines of what happened in "Forever" where a kiss of comfort turned into something showing how needy they both really were). Then they will remember why they can't be together. The door will NEVER be shut on those two. Neither will move on because they want to. It will always be circumstances that drive them apart.

What I loved, and made the scene perfect, was the set up. Buffy didn't just immediately fall into Angel's arms. She asserted her independance first. Angel saved her at the critical moment and then had no problem just standing back and watching, but Buffy was the one to tell him to do this. I wasn't envying the writers having to put these characters back together. They are both full heroes in their own right and neither can really be subservient to the other. It required something along the lines of "The Yoko Factor," but with fighting involved it would be even more difficult. It was handled perfectly. I couldn't wait to actually see the scene.

It really showed how far they had both come. Angel starts out his mission S1 because he doesn't think that Buffy can handle things. He thinks she needs his help and she does. Buffy turns to Angel repeatedly S2&3. Even when he is Angelus, her instinct is still to turn to him. He told Lilah that Buffy can handle herself and he really does believe that. It was great seeing Buffy finally feel this way this season. Pretty much for most of the season, she has felt over her head. If Angel had shown up then, she would have let him fight.

This time, Buffy had no problem asserting herself, letting him know she didn't need his help. It was great to see them for a split-second look like they were going to enter the fight together. Then Buffy asserts her independance and Angel completely understands. His line and look was perfect. For all those who doubted, Angel can do something more than brood. I really like his smile.

The kiss wasn't her just falling back into her old relationship. It was an important thing for her to do after "Touched." Angel gives her an opening for some witticism. She seizes the moment and rather than hold back, she feels what she wants to feel.

It has been my favorite Angel/Buffy moment so far. They both really are equals throughout the scene. Both are willing to admit their feelings and aren't running away. Angel can even let himself admit that he misses watching Buffy. This is a 180 on their old policy of "forget."

[> [> [> Only spoilers for End of Days above. I'm fairly virgin (and loving it) for next week -- lunasea, 13:40:09 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: agree, spoilers for buffy and angel 5 -- Dandy, 15:32:10 05/15/03 Thu

I agree with you about the Buffy and Angel relationship. Moreover it seems to be the way ME will take the remainder of the Angel series. I believe they plan to have Angel become human and walk off ino the sunset with Buffy. Both SMG and DB have spoken favorably of this. To me it makes sense if you look at the entire series as a whole. ME has striven for internal consistency. There has been a lot of romantic angst for characters, in no small part as a plot device to keep the story and characters from stagnating. The end of the story will not require this. It will be the tableau that is left in the mind of the viewer.
It is a fairy tale. It is mythic. I do not mind being left with the romantic pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, the damsel at the end of the quest.
And it is ultimately more like real life. If you continue with angsty, tormented relationships you end up alone. In real life there are marriages with happy endings and babies and half the cast and crew of Buffy probably have them so why not the characters?
Why not Spike and Buffy? Because she has said over and over she never loved him. She never lied about it and if you don't take her at face value and accept it you become an emotional rapist, tryig to force her to love who you love, not who she loves.

[> [> [> [> Re: agree, spoilers for buffy and angel 5 -- Miss Edith, 07:20:31 05/16/03 Fri

I know David has recently said he can't see beyond the B/A relationship, and Sarah has been vocal about how it will always be Angel. But even if that is the story ME end up going with I will find it hard to accept. Angel hasn't been around Buffy for years. He was with her when she was a happy go lucky school girl. She has changed a lot since then. Angel wasn't there when Buffy returned from the dead which was a significant season in terms of her character growth. With Angel's return it seems to me that both character's regressed slightly. Angel seemed to lack any of the sorrow at the loss of his son, Buffy seeemed the ditzy starry eyed schoolgirl again. I just wonder how easy it will be for them both to pick up where they left off. In Sanctury Buffy couldn't reconcile the Angel she was confronted with ("this is my town") with her boyfriend from Sunnydale who was always accepting that Buffy was in charge. The two still have feelings for each other, in Forever Angel provided comfort. I just wonder at the practicality of the two of them building lifes together. They might still love each other, but I akways saw it as an idealised love. At this point in their lifes do they really know or understand each other?

[> [> [> [> Oh, I can't resist...(stats on marriage, high school sweethearts, etc) -- dream, 10:41:34 05/16/03 Fri

***There has been a lot of romantic angst for characters, in no small part as a plot device to keep the story and characters from stagnating.[...] And it is ultimately more like real life. If you continue with angsty, tormented relationships you end up alone. In real life there are marriages with happy endings and babies and half the cast and crew of Buffy probably have them so why not the characters?***

I've heard this argument many times - that the angst-ridden relationships on Buffy are there to keep things interesting, not because they accurately depict real-life relationship, in which people are more often happy. I'm fine with that - it's true as far as it goes - but there's one major problem with the argument. These people are still in their early twenties. For half of the show, the characters were in high school. Unhappy endings ARE the norm for people of that age. They are still woorking out how to be in a relationship.

Consider:

The percentage of Americans who claim to have married their high-school sweetheart is 15%. Considering that the average median age at marriage has risen (for women) to 25 years from 20 years in 1950, there's a good chance the vast majority of those who married their high-school sweethearts did so a long time ago.

Consider as well that that 15% includes those that married
and DIVORCED their high-school sweetheart. Those that married under the age of 20 have a 40% divorce rate, as compared to 25% to those who marry over the age of 25. So your chance of marrying your high-school sweetheart AND staying with him/her is pretty low.

Consider as well that 35% of 25-34 year olds are not and have never been married.

So we have three young people, a pretty small sample. And at the age of 22(?) or so, not one has had a serious long-term relationship that hasn't ended unhappily. That's not over-playing the angst, that's just probability. If the characters were in their late twenties or early thirties, I would agree that there's a skew. But at that age, no.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't people who marry their high-school sweetheart and live happily ever after; of course there are. But far more people can relate to the stories we've seen on Buffy, because, statistically, they represent what far more people have gone through at that age. (Oh, I would say Tara's death was the most unlikely - she and Willow could well have been long-haulers, and widows at that age are very few.)

And because I think it's important, you should consider whether "ending up alone" is as terrible as you think. Lots of people "end up alone" - widows, divorcees, and people who have remained single, some by choice, some by luck. Lots of these people are perfectly happy. Our society puts way too much emphasis on romantic fulfillment, while ignoring the importance of the spiritual, emotional and intellectual fulfillment of the individual. Some of these things can be easier to achieve when single. Some are harder. Point is, I see Buffy's journey as a spiritual one. I want her to find the Holy Grail. Whether she finds a prince on the way or not is incidental.

[> [> [> [> Re: agree, spoilers for buffy and angel 5 -- Dariel, 13:10:27 05/16/03 Fri

Dream responds to your more general points very well, so I won't try. I am curious, though--How does one become an "emotional rapist" towards a TV character?

[> [> [> [> [> Replies to posters about my post -- Dandy, 16:05:34 05/16/03 Fri

I use the term 'emotional rapist' to try to make the point that I think a lot of the fans who are so adamant that Buffy should love Spike because of his quest for redemption and his repeated avowals or love for her are not listening to her saying 'no' in the same way that Spike was not listening to her when he tried to rape her.

The female fans of the great feminist show are not listening to the female character at all. I find that sad. I do not think that ME is leaving the Buffy character with a resolved ending really. See next week ,I guess. I hope and I do believe that they will not let this universe(Btvs and Ats) end without a positive resolution for this character. I certainly would not feel the show is about female empowernment if they did that. It would be about female torture. I differ with ME on thier notion of feminism. They think having a woman-hating preacher slam Buffy into the wall is feminist as long as she kills him in the end. I don't. I think that Glory was the greater feminist statement. A powerfull chick in heels. Having a character like Caleb plays as much to males who get off on violence against women as it does to those who want to see Buffy defeat him in the end.

I am for the Buffy/Angel ending to the Buffyverse because it does connect to fairy tale. In the end this is a mythic universe and I believe there is room for exploration of complex issues of morality and psychology without the story abandoning traditional forms completely. Buffy has always worked on so many levels from the ridiculous to the sublime. I think it is very interesting to view the entire completed collection of Buffy and Angel episodes as paying tribute to human love in both its idealized and grittier incarnations. There's room for both. It makes the show greater. They do not negate one another.

In one of the Succubus Club interviews, I don't remember if it was the Drew Goddard one or the Fury/Minear one one of these writers said that of all the shows' relationships they saw the Angel/Buffy one as mythic. I totally agree with this. It is okay to have two different classes of relationship on the shows.

I suppose I side more with the writers than the fans on some issues. I understand why Fury would say that female fans who were enthralled with Spike were like women who fell in love with serial killers. There is a way in which this is true. He has no moral compass. Fans were appalled that Buffy beat him outside the police station. For me the bedroom scene that followed was far more frightening. I thought, oh no, he is going to get her to go along with this. She is going to give up her self, her center of power, her knowledge of right and wrong for him. But she did not. In her weakened state he was a danger to the very core of herself, but she prevailed.

Of course James was playing the hell out of the redemption story so that's what was coming through to us and Buffy was being frustratingly unemotional and opaque in her emotions so we as viewers turned away from her. Part of this was the writing, part Sarah's choices as an actress.

Marti also commented on Spike's appeal being in part due to JM's charisma. I think the intentions of the writers got a little twisted by James. He has spoken about putting a strong positive spin on Spike. My theory here is that ME became as enchanted with his performance as we were and did not realize until it was too late that the story they wanted to tell was not coming through quite the way they intended. I hope someday someone gets the access needed to the writers to do an examination of how the character of Spike developed. My hunch is that JM had a lot more to do with it than has ever been said, either thru the inspiration of having this great actor as a tool or in discussion of his character. He is able to pull off anyrthing you write for him. He is also an incredibly articulate and analytical man. I can see him being the actor most likely to spend time with the writers discussing his character.

(Believe me, nothing I say about the Buffy/Spike relationship has anything to do with JM as an actor. I think he is the best actor on either show. Although I do have great hopes for Alysson Hannigan becoming this generations' Maggie Smith.)

I see the modus operandi of ME as being-put the characters thru hell but at the end give them thier due. Connor got his home, Spike got his soul. I believe the 'due' for Buffy will be Angel. He has become symbolic of trust and openess, happiness for her. The character of Buffy is still the girl who wants to be a cheerleader, go ice skating, go to the prom, have the big hunky protective boyfriend. Fate intervened but it did not change her nature. I think the character of Angel is better suited to her wants, her temperament, her needs. In the beginning of the show I used to think of them as the stereotypical 50's teen couple, the last era where fairytale romance flourished. Buffy and Angel go to the prom. Angel wouldn't be my choice. I'd go for Spike in a heartbeat. My point is is that this is about her choice, not mine, or the fans.

Naturally, real life in the form of a rather acrimonious split between the networks intervened and there was not much communication between Buffy and Angel. But,the great thing about ME is how they handle transitions. When I heard Spike was going to go from villian to Buffy's lover I just could not imagine they could ever pull it off. It is one of the triumphs of TV history. Really amazing. So, if indeed they are going to have Sarah on Angel and pursue the relationship with him I am sure they will be able to pull it off. Maybe even nmake believers of some Spuffys.

In my mind, Spike's journey was inspired by Buffy's morality. His relationships with women were always dysfunctional. I can easily see ME creating a realization within Spike of the seperation between his quest for redemption and his quest for Buffy. She inspired it. She was his teacher, his yoda to the light side as Angel was to the dark. But he never had a true relationship with her because she was never available emotionally. I never saw his desire for her as coming from love. Neediness, lonliness, the chip putting him in a limbo space akin to her limbo space of being just back from the grave, sex, the need for a guiding light in is unlife, but not love. Most Spuufys see this as emotional problems Buffy needed to work through before she could have the relationship with Spike. I choose to see her as still the emotionally resilient girl of thr beginning. The situation has not allowed for her happiness. For whatever reason, with or without a soul she has never been wholeheartedly unrestained and open with Spike.

I thought that relationship made for some of the most interestng television ever. It was a great examination of a neurotic relationship, of psychology and morality- but never love. With Angel there was love. We wouldn't have been so affected by her sending Angel to hell if we did not believe in thier love.

I always missed the funny Buffy. JW has tons of responsibility and is goofy as hell. Why did they drop that with her character? Never quite understood that. Sarah does comedy so well. The Buffybot! I would like to see them resolve her character on Angel so that she regains that measure of happiness that has been denied her over the years. Angel hasn't been the happiest pup either so I would be happy to see him with Buffy. And I would like to see Spike get the most amazing woman ME can come up with. And she just respects the hell out of him and adores him to bits. That's my version of a happy ending.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Is having a man the best possible fate for a woman? -- Arethusa, 17:20:56 05/16/03 Fri

Should Buffy's happiness depend on having a man?

I don't care who she ends up with because I'm most interested in Buffy making Buffy happy, not a man making Buffy happy. Any way they go, I'll be happy. Spike, Angel, Andrew, noone-I don't care because ME'll make it thrilling and fun and sad. But it makes a much stronger statement of empowerment and self-fulfillment to have the heroine NOT end up with a man.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Is having a man the best possible fate for a woman? -- Miss Edith, 09:25:50 05/17/03 Sat

I would rather see Buffy happy anc comfortable sharing a life with another. Having Buffy end up alone to me is not a feminist message at all. Buffy's sexuality has always been denied with the sex is bad message, I hate the idea of the lone female warrior denied access to parts of her feminity. Buffy shouldn't be with a man because she needs to be, but I have never seen it as the greatest message of female empowerment for the heroine to end up alone. JMHO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Is it safe to agree with you? -- lunasea, 09:38:32 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Probably not, but I'm sure glad somebody does! -- Dandy, 10:51:10 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> Caleb and Judge Judy. -- WickedBuffy, 11:00:46 05/17/03 Sat

"Having a character like Caleb plays as much to males who get off on violence against women as it does to those who want to see Buffy defeat him in the end."

Who Buffy ends up with is a non-issue to me. You can try to earn love, but it's not like money - love is either given or isn't. Sometimes given to people who didn't try to earn it, sometimes to the other. Sometimes you get the specific kind of love you were going for, sometimes a different type.

But your comments about Caleb were interesting. (and I admit, I don't even understand what you were sayng in the last part of that sentence)

But about Calebs violence and the viewers who might get off on it ... I can just see how it would go if this case was in a real court. Caleb would claim that it wasn't really him that was killing, it was FE. Thereby letting Caleb off the hook and allowing all that physical violence to women be excused because it wasn't really his fault.

dammit! I had a point here and I just lost it. must...get...more...coffee...

[> Not sure I understand the rather vociferous reactions...(spoilers for End of Days) -- Random, 09:17:48 05/14/03 Wed

We're judging the spark from an interaction that took approximately 2 minutes (the other 3 being spent with Buffy in battle.) And quite frankly, I doubt that it will even be an issue. Buffy is glad to see Angel? Ye gods! What a bitch! I mean, she's under hellacious pressure, looking at the end of the world, and an old lover with superpowers comes to her aid -- literally saving her life in the process -- and then she's glad to see him? What's the matter with her?!? Does she have no code?

And, quite frankly, when I see someone I haven't seen for years, someone I once loved, I'm not betraying everything I am by being glad to see them, or kissing them even. I have learned to express my emotions for one person without losing my feelings for other people. I doubt B/S fans need to worry. We're not gonna be looking at a long angst-fest with only one ep to go. This isn't ME trying to throw us for a loop, this is a plot development for the final episode. Perhaps we should give Buffy some credit. So I think I'm gonna wait till after the final ep is over (sob!) before I start getting all upset.

And, to be honest, I think it's appropriate that Angel returns. He was there at the beginning...it seems only right that he should be there at the end.

~Random, who's on the record as being decidedly anti-shipper, B/A or B/S...except my rabid Clemdrew shipperiness.

[> [> [sigh]. It's not about shippiness -- Caroline, 10:32:21 05/14/03 Wed

it's about context and character development. Buffy's had hardly any interaction with Angel these last 4 years. For all we know, she hasn't seen him in almost 2 years. They have not been part of each other's lives. And, they've had other people, other situations in their lives that have pulled them even further apart than the physical distance between them. Angel has had the whole situation with Connor, Cordy and the deal with W&H. Buffy has had her return to life, dealing with the isolation of slayerdom, Spike, Dawn and an incorporeal evil. How much do they know of each other's life and experiences? And how would they react to that?

Angel is Buffy's first love and we know how much Angel loved her. I can buy that they would be happy to see each other. But I can't buy the cocky, smarmy attitude of Angel, which is basically Angelus-like in my view. And the cheesy music was just over the top - back to S2/3 B/A melodrama rather than the understated but intense stuff we've seen with B/S. But the worst of it in my view is the attempt to create a conflict from the love-triangle prospect. ME have hammered into us the whole Spike is good, loves Buffy unreservedly and unconditionally stuff and now they want me to buy that he will go evil cos he sees B/A kiss? It's not worthy of ME plotting - I don't want Dawnson's Creek style plotting in ME productions - they're better than that.

[> [> [> Exactly. Agree. You said it very well. -- s'kat, 11:03:31 05/14/03 Wed

I agree on Angel in the episode. Felt exactly the same way for me and I love Angel.

I'm hoping Cjl, Buffyboy and Rufus are right in their posts on this. And that the scene was there as a metanarration on S1-3 and a test for Spike, nothing more. I also secretly hope that they'll turn and see Spike and Angel will say something along the lines -

Angel: Spike, my lad. Oh glad you caught up, apparently you were right, Caleb came right for her. Did those bringers give you any trouble?

Buffy: Spike? What?

Spike (takes a deep breath and steps into the room): No trouble. Saw Angel looking for you. Figured you could use a hand.

Buffy (looking pained): Oh.

Or something like that. Because from what I could tell, Spike was the only one who knew where'd she'd gone.
I'm unspoiled. But I'm praying that they don't turn this into a Dawson's Creek style finale or where it's oh we need to save the world but my real issue is who do I want to prance off into the sunset with? Like you, I dearly hope ME is better than that.

[> [> [> [> You've got to be joking, right? -- lunasea, 12:48:52 05/14/03 Wed

The reason Angel is there is because according to Joss (and I know you've read the quote) is to show that Angel is an important part of Buffy's heart.

Of course everything has become about Spike, as the Salon article said. Joss only brought Angel over because it would really test Spike. He is the main character now. Joss just didn't rename the show. It involved all sorts of legal problems.

Everyone is focusing on the kiss that is the exclamation point on the exchange that happened prior to it. How about that exchange? That was the meat of the interaction. Kisses tend to just be punctuation marks. The exchange was a decided change from anything we had previously seen with those two.

There will be more to that exchange. The door will forever be left open there, but we will also be reminded why they can't be together now.

Question to the Spike people: If Buffy loves Angel more than anyone, is it fair for her to be with someone who is clearly just the runner-up to her? It is one thing to move on, but is it fair to the guy if moving on means runner-up?

Don't even try to say that Buffy loves Spike just as much, but won't/can't admit it. Statements like that belong in Egypt.

[> [> [> [> [> In what world are there "runners-up" in love? Are there gold statues, too? -- dream, throwing caution & intelligent discourse to the wind, 13:04:03 05/14/03 Wed

And, um, no. I don't think she's joking.

[> [> [> [> [> [> If you want to be the most important to someone and you aren't -- lunasea, 13:33:26 05/14/03 Wed

that is called runner-up.

If you want something from someone and she only gives it to you because who she really wants isn't around, that is called runner up.

Angel is #1 in Buffy's heart. That won't change. As Xander tells Cordelia in Halloween, "Give it up, Cordy. You're never gonna get between those two. Believe me, I know."

I don't think it is fair for Spike for Buffy to be with him if she really wants someone else.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh - thought love's runner-up just dropped the baton in the talent segment -- d, picturing Angel & Spike awaiting scores in spangly gowns, 13:47:05 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ok so here's a question -- ponygirl, 13:51:38 05/14/03 Wed

Why does Buffy love Angel so unreservedly? I know there's the true love argument, but they both know it can never work out. There is a certain masochism in Buffy setting her romance with Angel as the one true thing. Here's a woman who we've seen for the past two years struggling to connect with others yet falling immediately into Angel's arms. Is loving Angel a safe choice for Buffy? She's guaranteed the heartache, but she's also protected in a way from having to connect too deeply. He will always have to leave her, and maybe on some level Buffy wants that.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I do think this is an important part of Buffy's psyche.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's a very good question. -- Arethusa, 14:36:18 05/14/03 Wed

If Buffy always sees Angel as her unattainable true love, she doesn't have to actually have a relationship with him, thereby risking rejection and pain. They are parted through circumstance, instead of any fault of Buffy's. The dream lives on forever.

Alternately, Spike is often frustrating, sometimes infuriating, and always there. If she were to tell him she loves him he would want her entire heart, unreservedly. If they were then to break up, she would be rejected again, and possibly lose the only man who would not otherwise leave her. If she holds him at arm's legnth, she will always have his love but he doesn't have the right to make any demands.

No wonder she's done nothing.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, that is a very good question...one that's puzzled the non-B/A shipper in me -- Random, 14:44:27 05/14/03 Wed

And I think Arethusa makes an excellent point.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oooo-yeah... -- Kate, 15:02:13 05/14/03 Wed

Excellent question pony girl and response Arethusa. I never thought of it that way directly, but you are both so right. Angel is the "easy" relationship because the expectations are set. Plus, she can put more of the responsibility on Angel for it not working because he chose to leave her. Also, it harkens back, in many ways, to a simpler time when the burden on her shoulders didn't feel as heavy and she had this beautiful, mysterious man in her life to watch over her and protect her. I think there is definitely a great deal of nostalgia involved in last night's moment (as well something suspicious happenings - her dropping the scythe so fast and going for the kiss does raise some questions). Did Xander once say we always go for the unobtainable?

If time permitted, I think there is great possibility for her relationship with Spike. I think it could be/could've been the one that really worked for her only because there has been so much growth and work put into it, especially this season - as per example the last two episodes. Grand passion and undying love are great all, for a time, but there are other things just as, if not more, important in a relationship. I think, given time, Buffy and Spike could have become true partners.

But that's probably neither here nor there at this point and I am also totally cool with Buffy ending up with Buffy -in a positive way. (Not b/c she was abandoned or anything.)

Thanks for the great thoughts and analysis!!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you and that odd post I made above -- s'kat, 15:28:42 05/14/03 Wed

Now that's a wonderful statement you made above and very close to my feelings regarding Buffy's love relationships at this stage. In fact you took my thoughts and wove them together far better than I ever could.

It reminds me a great deal of what Xander told Buffy in Into the Woods - "After Angel left you shut down. Didn't let anyone in" speech. I think she has. Angel is probably the safest love for her. Distant. Unattainable. Like his name. I love an "Angel" - something that remains out of my reach but can platonically love me. Never hurt me. The love of the valentine card.

Buffy needs to do as her guide in Intervention advised:
Risk the Pain, The Slayer gains Strength from Pain.
Everyone else in the cast has but Buffy. She feels alone, only because she doesn't let them in - but they are there.

Admittedly my post above was sort of weak. Not very good at fanfic or dialogue. My point was merely that to have either series end with A/B or the B/A/S triangle would be in my humble opinion making it a bit like Dawsons' Creek or
90210 or a host of other teen soap dramas - where the heroines greatest choice is which sweatheart she should marry. I keep hoping Buffy The Vampire Slayer is going to go out with a bang - say something a bit richer than that, because hey, if I was looking for a show about a girl ending up with her sweatheart? I'd be watching Gilmore Girls or Dawsons Creek. (Not that I don't occassionally, tee hee.) Same with Angel the Series - I dearly hope we won't keep revisiting the B/A relationship. I think that story was told. I want to see what other stories the writers have in their hats.

Now, as for myself? I'm really not a Buffyshipper. I love Buffy and I'm invested in her journey. But I'm not interested in who she ends up with romantically. I don't really care - as long as it makes logical and narrative sense. What I don't want is for the writers to put her with an old boyfriend she hasn't talked to in two years. Only seen two times in the intervening two. (Forever, and the period between Flooded and Life Serial). I know the above I made might be wrongly interpreted as a desire on my part for her to be with Spike - but that's not what I intended. What I wanted was for her to acknowledge that she cares for him and doesn't want to hurt him, and if she knew he saw her kissing Angel - I think she is warmhearted and compassionate enough to look pained and not want him hurt, especially after that scene between the two of them in the house.

Do I want B/S together in the end? No.
Do I want B/A together in the end? No.
Do I want B/R together in the end? Don't make me laugh
Do I want B/W together? Ewww.
Do I want B/X together? No.
But I wouldn't mind seeing B/HW...now that's a ship worth rooting for - oh wait they killed Webs in CWDP didn't they?
Dang. Oh well...there went my ship.

I do however want Angel and Spike to walk off as friends bonding...now see, there's my ship! Angel/Spike forever. LOL!

Thanks again Areustha. After I'd made that post - which voy unfortunately didn't eat...I was sort of hoping it would just disappear into archives with no one noticing...oh well.
Hope that cleared it up.

SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I was still a hopin for the Rufus/Principal Wood ship.....;) -- Rufus, 20:57:58 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Go for it, I certainly won't stand in your way, although Faith might ;-) -- s'kat, 22:12:57 05/14/03 Wed

Although...I'm still privately hoping he dies in the end.;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What a ship is to me......... -- Rufus, 00:36:55 05/17/03 Sat

Now, the last time I showed an interest in a character it was Riley who was treated like a leper. I liked the kid, he was nice, looked like he'd seen the business end of a face-cloth every once in awhile, and he was tall. I have a husband....so I don't need another sex partner...real or imagined...but I have a house to clean....things to do, and at times my height limits the ease at which I can get stuff done....so, for me I pick the characters that are easy on the eye and tall enough to reach the highest shelf....when all the housework is done we can all have milk and cookies. So Principal Wood has a job to come to as his stint in Sunnydale seems to have left town along with Clem. I hope they don't kill him cause he would make a fine addition to my dream team, Riley, Giles, Wesley (I'll let him do the jobs that need a bucket), and now Principal Wood (I'd even let him scold me).........;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Have no problem with that... -- s'kat, 06:36:16 05/17/03 Sat

Hmmm Wood as Rufus' personal maid/man around house? Now that's better than seeing him die. I hope he does live and come to work for you. Take him down a peg.

(Sorry - Ruf, my hatred of this character has zip to do with ships, so much to do with the fact that his personality and behavior are way too close to a serial bully boss I had for me to relate to him in an objective fashion. Didn't mean to bash your ship. )

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> projection again? -- anom, 23:22:50 05/14/03 Wed

"If Buffy always sees Angel as her unattainable true love...."

Is that why she told Spike he only wanted her because she was unattainable? Interesting parallel to the idea that he told her Slayers have a death wish because he had one!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> lol, I like that twist to an old idea -- Traveler, 22:22:56 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Excellent point, ponygirl--do you think this influenced the B/S scene too? -- Dyna, 15:15:11 05/14/03 Wed

Is loving Angel a safe choice for Buffy? She's guaranteed the heartache, but she's also protected in a way from having to connect too deeply. He will always have to leave her, and maybe on some level Buffy wants that.

You make a really interesting point, ponygirl. And it makes the Angel scene make more sense to me, in a way--at least, it makes the scene feel less like a total departure from the rest of the episode. And, not to steer you toward this subject if it doesn't interest you, but your comments have me thinking about the earlier scene between Buffy and Spike, and wondering if you think this issue of Buffy's is at play there also?

(I guess all day I've been mulling this over and trying to figure out what the relationship is between the two scenes, and feeling unsatified by the simplistic compare/contrast explanations, i.e. that the scenes illustrate that Buffy doesn't love Spike/that Angel is her one true love, etc.)

I've been thinking about the Buffy/Spike scene today and I'm starting to think my initial impression of what went on isn't quite right. My first gut reaction was that the scene went something like this: Spike returns, downplaying what happened (which seemed in keeping with his pattern this season of not pushing, minimizing the importance of things between them as Buffy seems to want to do also); Buffy is short with him at first, showing little emotion except irritation until he tries to leave, but then stops herself and goes after him, saying she's tired of defensiveness and mixed signals and wants some honesty. So Spike tells her he was terrified at feeling so close to her, and knowing too that it doesn't mean anything. Buffy's taken aback, protests that it does too mean something, but when he presses her to say what that is, she clams up, coming back with "I don't know" and "does it have to mean something?" He's hurt, she doesn't seem to want to be honest after all, and the conversation ends abruptly.

My impression as I watched the scene was that Buffy was just repeating her previous behavior of withholding her emotions, asking Spike to share and not giving back. If you believe she doesn't love Spike, you could say she was demonstrating that lack of love. I don't feel totally satisfied with that as the full story of what was going on, though, and I've had this sense all day reading others' comments that I missed something. I mean, it's one thing for Spike to demand that Buffy be honest and for her to resist, but it was Buffy who went after him, angry that he was being defensive and treating their night together as unimportant. Why then did she not follow through on her own demand for honesty? Why did she back down instead and let Spike walk out?

I guess reading your post got me thinking about why Buffy would turn and retreat mid-conversation, and it occurred to me that what Spike told her, that he was terrified by the experience of being close to her, is about the scariest thing he could have said to someone like Buffy, who is herself so afraid of being close to people. Angel she can love, because as you say, he will always have to leave her, yet his leaving is always compelled by outside forces--Angel can never decide to leave her. Fate is always there to make the decision for both of them. Thus his leaving can never be felt as a rejection. It's painful, but there are other things more painful--like being close to someone who can stay, who will stay, risking the possibility that even so they might decide to leave. There's much more risk there, and Buffy has really never successfully resolved this problem--whether the rewards of being truly intimate with someone are worth the fear that that brings, fear of loss and of being rejected. So it occurs to me that when Spike says he is terrified, and that he felt truly close to her, he touches so directly on Buffy's fears that she can't hold up her end of the bargain to be honest. If Spike is terrified, he might leave. If Spike feels truly close to her, he might want to continue to be close, and what if she can't "do" close? What if she really is turning to stone inside? What if he gets that close, and is disappointed by what he finds in her, and leaves her anyway?

In a way I think Spike has functioned this season as the other type of "safe" relationship in Buffy's life--on one hand Angel, the one who can never stay and so can never reject her, and on the other hand Spike, who will stay and stay and not ask for anything in return. I do wonder if ME will get to this at all, if it will play out in an interesting way, but time is so short! I'm afraid it will be up to the fanfic writers, ultimately, to make sense of all this.

Uh, not to ramble on or anything! Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts, and anyone else's too--you all have so many great insights!

:) Dyna

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Great posts ponygirl and Dyna! -- Caroline, 15:43:31 05/14/03 Wed

I think that you've really nailed Buffy's thinking concerning Angel and Spike. It's part of Buffy's inability to look hard inside herself because if she does, we know that she won't like what she sees. She tells Holden in CWDP that despite being the slayer and stronger than everyone else, she feels as though she is really inferior to her friends. She doesn't feel that she deserves better -thus is is easier for her to not see the inferiority inside and give priority to a relationship that has been over for 4 years and has no hope of a future. Because she doesn't deserve better. It's easy to see that when she feels threatened, Buffy reverts to the safety of the unattainable.

Dyna, you mention that Angel can never decide to leave her. Their 'incompatibility' is externally fated and out of both of their hands, therefore it is safe to feel that love and yearning. I wonder how differently Buffy would feel if she remembered IWRY - that Angel chose not to be human with her but to go back to his souled vamp status. I've always thought that if Buffy had known this, she might have still been somewhat shut down, but that she wouldn't regress to her feelings for Angel when threatened because she knew that she did not come first with Angel. Angel did not say 'here is love and the world well lost' - he chose the world over Buffy. Not really Buffy/Angel4eva material.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And just wanted to add... -- Caroline, 15:48:48 05/14/03 Wed

that I hope that whomever Buffy ends up with, or even if she doesn't end up with anyone, I would hope that she makes a breakthrough in the final episode that she is worthy of love, that she feels strong enough to take the risk and reveal herself. I'd hate to think that I've been watching her journey for almost seven years and that she does not succeed in this kind of growth and self-transformation, which is the point of her journey.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes!! -- Dyna, 15:59:11 05/14/03 Wed

I wonder how differently Buffy would feel if she remembered IWRY - that Angel chose not to be human with her but to go back to his souled vamp status. I've always thought that if Buffy had known this, she might have still been somewhat shut down, but that she wouldn't regress to her feelings for Angel when threatened because she knew that she did not come first with Angel. Angel did not say 'here is love and the world well lost' - he chose the world over Buffy.

I forgot about IWRY, but yes! I do think, if Buffy had the memory of that day, it might have made a difference in her life in many ways--not only to allow her to see her situation with Angel as the product of choices and not just fate, but also I think seeing him do his duty to the world in that way, painful as it would have been to her personally, might have made it easier at times for her to accept and "choose" her own duty.

More importantly, it probably would have allowed her to reach some closure on the relationship and move on, instead of idealizing Angel and feeling put-upon by circumstances. How might the next four years have been different for her if she knew the whole truth?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wow! Great series of posts ponygirl, Dyna, Caroline. -- s'kat, 16:13:52 05/14/03 Wed

Not much to add except a warm thank you for clearing up some of the things that were bothering me. Dyna, like you I was trying to figure out those two scenes and how they connected.

I agree with what you've all posted above, your thoughts, Aerustha's, ponygirls' and Caroline's together form a good picture of what I think the writers are going for and the purpose behind those scenes.

I'd like to add something if I may. In the previous scene with Faith, before Buffy comes down the steps...Faith talks about men and all the men she's been with and how none of them have lasted very long, well except for Robin who had a lot of stamina. Buffy appears to be taken aback and somewhat sickened by this. Faith is sort of casual about the sex. And asks if Buffy got wiggly with Robin. This dialogue slowly laspes into Faith's speech about how she's been jealous of Buffy and her friends, but when she had the mantal and led, she felt even more alone than she did prior to it, even though she was surrounded by friends. Right after that scene - we have the scene with Spike, where Buffy asks Spike not to be defensive and weird since she has FAITH for that (which as fresne points out in a thread above is almost a validation by the writers of Faith and Spike as Buffy's shadows.) Also Spike states - "cold comfort from the cellar dweller" - which is part of the dialogue that spurs Buffy to go after him and confront him.
Spike's line after Buffy's on Faith - is also an upfront/somewhat Faith like take on sex - done lots of things some with you last year I can't even pronounce but last night was the first time - I was ever close to anyone.
Contrast this with Faith's statements, where she says Robin was the best - yet she still felt alone (yet Faith is attempting in that scene to bond on some level with Buffy).
Meanwhile we have Buffy as the FE chiding Caleb on his un-romantic sex talk - "you really know how to romance a girl", Caleb "stop talking like that you are starting to sound like her". And their merger is in a sense a type of sexual act. I'm not sure what it all means exactly...but the parallels interest me, particularly in lieu of what was said above.

Thanks for those posts.
SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You too, sk! -- ponygirl, 17:22:41 05/14/03 Wed

Great posts in this subthread! Ack the pressure to respond coherently!

Dyna brings up the B/S scene and you bring up the Buffy/Faith, I think the scenes are very important to understanding Buffy (not that I do). When I was watching the Faith scene I kept thinking about how they were both talking about being alone, about having a burden that no one else could share, the natural thing would be for them to connect. But they didn't, though they did seem to reach an understanding there were still two lonely women in that room.

Then there was her scene with Spike, which possibly could be seen as Spike giving voice to Buffy's inner fears - don't make fun of me, I'm terrified, what does all this mean. I think Buffy's "I don't know" was sincere, that she genuinely doesn't know what she feels. I find it interesting that the FE expresses such a desire to be part of people, while Buffy keeps pulling away.

I also wonder about Buffy's scene with Xander. It almost felt that she was trying to give Spike a more intense version of the speech she gave Xander. She's sending away the heart of the group, was she hoping to protect her heart and her childhood (Dawn) from the final battle? Of course they're coming back...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hearts... -- s'kat, 19:56:21 05/14/03 Wed

I also wonder about Buffy's scene with Xander. It almost felt that she was trying to give Spike a more intense version of the speech she gave Xander. She's sending away the heart of the group, was she hoping to protect her heart and her childhood (Dawn) from the final battle? Of course they're coming back...

Yes, I think Buffy is trying to protect her heart. Her conversation with Xander is an interesting one. He says she's putting him out to pasture, and mentions being one-eyed. Dawn calls him a Cyclops. Now Joss Whedon is an X-Men fan - Cyclops in X-men was the heart of the group, the one who often kept them all together. Xander is also the heart.
Animus. And Xander note leaves before Spike shows up.

Spike mirrors both Xander and Faith in Buffy's life.
The cellar dweller who offers cold comfort. He isn't aware of his own power - the power of his heart. A power so great it lead him to get a soul. He's terrified of exposing his heart of getting hurt. And covers with bravado, like both Xander (his eye jokes) and Faith (her sex jokes). I do think he's expected to reflect Buffy's own fears and pain.

And of course her innocence - the child - she sends away with her heart. But as the Guardian states - you have other weapons. Buffy believes she only has the scythe. She hasn't trusted her heart in a very long time. Not since Season 5, possibly even before that. Now, to win this battle, I think she's going to need her heart.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And remember...(no overt spoilers, some speculation) -- Tchaikovsky, 11:00:59 05/15/03 Thu

...that, as you yourself picked up on very early this year, this Season is about failure/banishment of heart and reassertion of the Hand, to complete the gyres of the Hand/Heart/Mind/Spirit quartet whih have been rotating since 'Primeval'. This time, I suspect it may be an integration of all four, but with Hand in ascendance, which wins the battle.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, it's so great to be able to discuss this with all of you! -- Dyna, 07:54:51 05/15/03 Thu

I haven't posted nearly as much as I'd have liked to this season, but whenever I do it's such a great pleasure to hear everyone's thoughts! I sincerely hope we all continue to discuss this long after the show itself is over. I admire all of you so much!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Seconding the Wow!! -- Julie, 17:37:39 05/14/03 Wed

You all have expressed EXACTLY how I feel, but could not articulate nearly so well. I've been waiting for Buffy to breakthrough her love/abandonment issues for the last two years (remember her running after Riley). The fact that we're down to one ep left is so sad -- if we see it at all it will be so short. Also, I couldn't agree more about IWRY. It hasn't been about Buffy for Angel for a long time. I feel so much better - Thanks!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Adding to that... -- PartlyCloudy, 16:38:36 05/14/03 Wed

To take this revisiting of these two scenes a step further and to embellish even further on it, try imagining yourself as Buffy in this situation for a moment (not necessarily you personally, Dyna, but anyone who has the interest & inclination)...

You have these relationship fears (with everyone around you, not just the main possibilities-for-love interest in your life, but then let's not discount him, either). So you have this confusion, but since you're trying to save the world again, you only have a small portion of your brain power to devote to this kind of thing right now. Or at least that's what you decide. Yet no matter what you focus your energies on, you still encounter Spike every day, and while your relationships with others near and dear are change and evolve, you still have long consistent histories on which to count and refer, giving you some sense of being on the same page and mutually drawing from the same account at Bank of the Benefit of the Doubt. Spike thought, is more different, and that in itself is tricky. He's changed, he's not the same old Big Bad, he's been ensouled for irony's sake, and you know, like it or not, that much of it is a direct result of your sphere of influence. Now, each nuanced change in the way you relate to one another, each new development, presents a challenge. For the past few years he's been around all the time, and he's said and done things that make you angry, frustrated, sad, annoyed, disgusted, etc.

However, he's also said and done things that make you happy, grateful, humble, surprised, delighted and mystified, and he's been around. All. the. time. Like it or not, thick and thin, good and bad, the whole nine yards. He also doesn't appear to be going anywhere, partly because you asked him not to. And why did you do that? You have this ongoing something that you can't put your finger on and you maybe don't want to, because then it could get scary, get hard, get sticky, and isn't it already full enough of all of those things? What new levels of scary, hard, and sticky are you signing up for if you decide to open yourself up to this? There are the physiological differences /issues (human/vamp) that you've explored before, but there's a whole different dynamic (and no hint of a happiness curse) that muddies up the waters so comparing this to past similar experiences doesn't work. So with nothing to go on besides what you've been going through recently, the future is unclear. What if it doesn't work out? And what if it does? And while you're thinking about that, you've got to head out on a mission to solve the mystery of the Scythe.

So you're off doing your main thing, learning and scrapping and intuiting and then along comes a smackdown and now you're just trying to survive long enough to send Mr Preacher Man to his eternal damnation. Things look pretty bleak for a long minute and them whammo! Enter Angel, who sweeps in, saves the day, and affirms you--some kind of dark romantic avenger. You've just had an angsty talk with your once-and-maybe-future vamp beau that raises feelings you didn't think would ever have and here is Mr Familiar, a blast from your decidedly less shades-of-gray, less complicated past, with open arms. And maybe you think, OK, forget this difficult messy confusing stuff. Who needs that? This is comfortable, this is warm and inviting and not currently angsty at all... this is good. This is where it's at.

So despite any misgivings (and I'm not saying you currently have any), is it hard to understand why you would you succumb to that comfortable place (though for how long we viewers have yet to see) even when you know--especially when you know--how it would inevitably play out because you've been there before? And even though you aren't the same person as you were then, complicating things even more, and even though the reasons it didn't work out the first time are still omnipresent, and even though you haven't shared all the nitty gritty shitty stuff that's happened to each of you in the past 2 years or so, the lure of the familiar, the comfortable is pretty strong. (Who among us has never had the inkling to "try again" with a former significant other? And how many of us have tried and failed?) At first blush, the familiar, with all its flaws and pitfalls, is less scary than the unknown, what with its being fraught with all kinds of possibility, some nice, some not so much.

So in the familiar, you know the song: you can ask Angel to stay again and he will again refuse and voila, all subsequent responsibility for your half of future interaction slides again from your shoulders and you don't have to face the very real consequences of how it could work out. Decision off your shoulders, problem solved, cry it out, wipe your hands & feel wronged. In the possible, it's less comfortable, more diffcult to be the one who might do the wrong, or to take the chance of being wronged again, or to be the one who does wrong and facing the possibility of not being entirely forgiven. Especially by someone who has demonstrated loyalty and forgiveness in the past.

Oh what a tangled web. Sorry for the stream-of-consciouslness babbling and the making up of compound words, but pretending these are my issues makes my head hurt. It's easier not to think about it. For me and for her, I imagine. Too bad there isn't time for us to see how it plays out.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ack! All really, really brilliant posts... -- Kate, 17:03:51 05/14/03 Wed

Thanks for putting my thoughts into coherent phrases and paragraphs!! :) I think all these posts have something in them that describes a truth about the two scenes and Buffy's attitude towards (romantic) relationships and her relationships with Angel and Spike specifically. I too am trying to decifer the deeper meaning and connection within and between those two scenes because I also believe there is one. However, I don't think that will become obvious til next week and maybe not for weeks to come until all is said and done and we have had time to ponder it all.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wow. Truly amazing. A little more on Angel. (Spoilers 7.22 Btvs & AtsHome) -- s'kat, 20:27:57 05/14/03 Wed

Now that is brilliant and I think very true. You did a very good job of putting yourself inside Buffy's and might I say Angel's shoes? Because I felt both of them within your words. And you explained to me why that kiss had to happen why it made perfect sense.

So despite any misgivings (and I'm not saying you currently have any), is it hard to understand why you would you succumb to that comfortable place (though for how long we viewers have yet to see) even when you know--especially when you know--how it would inevitably play out because you've been there before? And even though you aren't the same person as you were then, complicating things even more, and even though the reasons it didn't work out the first time are still omnipresent, and even though you haven't shared all the nitty gritty shitty stuff that's happened to each of you in the past 2 years or so, the lure of the familiar, the comfortable is pretty strong. (Who among us has never had the inkling to "try again" with a former significant other? And how many of us have tried and failed?) At first blush, the familiar, with all its flaws and pitfalls, is less scary than the unknown, what with its being fraught with all kinds of possibility, some nice, some not so much.

Ah yes. So many of us have tried. Desperate and alone, the old love comes strolling back in and the years melt away and we are once again back then when things seemed so much simpler, so clearer, the battles less painful or tiring somehow.

Btvs has commented on this quite a bit. The desire to go back to that comfortable place and how it just doesn't work. Buffy tried to do it in Weight of the World - moving deep inside her head.

So in the familiar, you know the song: you can ask Angel to stay again and he will again refuse and voila, all subsequent responsibility for your half of future interaction slides again from your shoulders and you don't have to face the very real consequences of how it could work out. Decision off your shoulders, problem solved, cry it out, wipe your hands & feel wronged. In the possible, it's less comfortable, more diffcult to be the one who might do the wrong, or to take the chance of being wronged again, or to be the one who does wrong and facing the possibility of not being entirely forgiven. Especially by someone who has demonstrated loyalty and forgiveness in the past.

Yes it is safe. For both of them. For Angel who has had to deal with Cordelia becoming evil and having Jasmine and making the decision to end world peace. Angel who had to let go of his son. He's in so much pain. Seeing Buffy again, going back to that comfortable pain of loving her but not having her - it seems so minor somehow to everything else almost soothing. Also add to that, she doesn't know all the crap. Finally someone who he doesn't have to apologize to or explain things to or deal with all the ambiguities, with Buffy things are so much simplier, he can just go back to being the "dark avenger" for a little while, be her knight in shining armor. And watch her kick the living daylights out of the villain. A nice break. What a relief to his own increasingly grey existence - where he can no longer tell which way is up. Buffy must be a ray of light. He too can go back to that gentler time where black was black and white was white. He can forget he made a deal with the devil in the pale moonlight in order to save his son and his comatose friend.

(OF course Spike sits in the shadows with the mother of all
bombshells ...after all up until now, Angel believed he was the only vampire with a soul. That's the problem with dreams - you have to eventually wake up.)

I am amazed at the posts on this thread - they have clarified so many of my own frustrations on the topic. Thank you.

SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wow, really nicely expressed, PC! -- Dyna, 07:57:15 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is all just great. -- Arethusa, 03:56:05 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I second your "great" and raise you an "enlightening!" -- dream, 06:41:48 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't ask why she does. Ask why she hasn't? -- lunasea, 18:02:30 05/14/03 Wed

Since "Touched" Buffy is showing people how she feels about them. Buffy loves Angel. That is canon and if you don't love Angel yourself, nothing I can say will explain why Buffy loves him. Joss writes it so that we fall in love with the characters along with the characters. I assume that Willow loves Oz for the same reasons I do. Same thing with Tara. I don't like Willow/Kennedy, because I don't see anything in Kennedy worthy of Willow. I assume that Buffy liked Riley for the same reasons I do and same with Anya/Xander.

I could give my "Why Buffy loves Angel" spiel. I think I have it saved somewhere. I was going to do a top 10 Buffy/Angel moments list to get ready for last night. This is such a Spuffy board, I decided to avoid the controversy and made it up for just myself.

But that isn't the question. The question seems to be, why does Buffy love someone she can never have (she doesn't know about Shanshu). So what if it can't work out? She sees him for a few minutes. Why not show him how she feels rather than bottle that up inside? Neither are doing very good on the whole forgetting thing. It was a stupid idea. There is a difference between moving on and forgetting. Forgetting has another synonym, denial.

That is what was so beautiful about the kiss. It was the first time they didn't deny how they feel first. They are both upfront with their feelings. They aren't forgetting. They aren't in denial. Even if there isn't a tomorrow for them, there is at least tonight.

"Protected from connecting too deeply"? It doesn't get any deeper than what Buffy shares with Angel. Buffy can feel Angel when he is around. She has been able to since the beginning, but it really plays out in "Pangs." That is symbolic of how deeply these two are connected. We still don't have an explanation for why Buffy was in Angel's dreams. I think how deeply they are connected sucked her in. Why was the First even after Angel? These are answers I still need (how he got back from hell would be nice too).

There is one word that shows how deeply Buffy connects with Angel, "maybe." (Forever) She can't connect that deeply with others because to be honest the Scoobies have all turned on her way before "Empty Places." They would like to think that they are there for her, but why should she have to come to them with her problems? Angel has been the one that gets Buffy to talk when she is being un-Buffylike. We can see how upset Buffy is. Why don't they?

Buffy has a problem getting over Angel, there is nothing "over" Angel. He is it, the supreme heart of the Buffyverse, the only other character who cares as much as she does. They both suffer the most because they both care the most. No one else is going to understand either of them like that. It isn't remotely masochistic to want that sort of understanding and connection. It is human.

Loving Angel isn't a "safe choice." It isn't a choice at all. Buffy loves Angel. Her choice is whether to try and forget and bottle that up or to react to how glad she is to see him. I thought it was great that neither of them had reservations any more. I can't wait to see how it is undercut next week.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't ask why she does. Ask why she hasn't? -- ponygirl, 19:15:29 05/14/03 Wed

Buffy has a problem getting over Angel, there is nothing "over" Angel. He is it, the supreme heart of the Buffyverse,
the only other character who cares as much as she does. They both suffer the most because they both care the most.
No one else is going to understand either of them like that. It isn't remotely masochistic to want that sort of
understanding and connection. It is human.

Human, yes, but healthy? If their connection prevents them from connecting with others, from finding a life or happiness with anyone else, what is that? Is love a small perfect object that must be put on a shelf and never examined too closely for fear of discovering a flaw? Sometimes, ever since Selfless, I've wondered if a part of Buffy has been forever frozen at that moment in Becoming when she realized she'd have to sacrifice love for duty, because I don't think she's ever loved anyone, including Angel, the same way since. How do you love someone completely when you know you may have to stick a sword through their chest? Maybe you can't.

I may be very wrong on all this, I guess we'll see next week.

Please do post your list of best B/A moments, I'd love to read it!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't ask why she does. Ask why she hasn't? -- lunasea, 10:08:00 05/15/03 Thu

I had a really long post about this, but the main idea tends to get lost that way. The main point is the Scoobies suck at being her friends. Buffy's relationship with Angel doesn't prevent her from connecting with anyone. The idiots around her prevent that.

In "When She was Bad" we see what Buffy's support network is. Briefly put, her parents are useless. Willow has suspicions that something is up, but can't bring herself to act on them other than to bring it up to others. Xander is clueless and doesn't care about Buffy when things start to affect those he cares about (namely Willow. I think Empty Places would have been more dramatic if it was Willow that was injured causing Xander to turn on Buffy. If it came down to Willow or Buffy, Xander is going to choose Willow every time). Cordelia is too blunt to be of comfort. Giles knows what is up and why, but gets side tracked by the new threat.

Then there is Angel. Buffy asks her friends if they miss her. Angel volunteers this information. When he thinks he has upset her, he tries to talk to her. Even when she has blown him off, he still follows her. It is in his arms that she ends up crying. It is Angel that comforts her.

There is a dramatic change between "When She was Bad" and "Becoming." That change is caused by one phrase that Buffy brings up in "Selfless," "kick his ass." In that one phrase, Buffy loses her support network. She never recovers from that one.

She doesn't have Angel to cry on any more and she doesn't feel that she has anyone to cry to about this. The Scoobies wait for her at school and are concerned, but why should she think they would sympathize with her. Xander is probably throwing an "Angel is dead" party and Willow, with that lie, got lumped in with him. Since Angel killed Jenny, Giles hasn't been his number one fan. He wanted to resoul him more because it was Jenny's last wish. Joyce kicked her out.

Buffy comes back and she doesn't tell anyone that Angel was resouled, because they wouldn't understand. It is something she has to handle herself. No one understands how much this 17 year old really loved him (heck a lot of the audience doesn't). They dump all over her in "Dead Man's Party." It is all about what she put them through, not about the serious pain she is going through. Only Giles suspects that something is up. He gets her to at least admit this.

Then Angel comes back. Would you have told anyone, especially the condition Angel was in when he came back? I wouldn't have. When they find out she has been hiding him, again with the dumping, this time Giles is the cruelest cut of all.

Then there is Riley. He really understands Buffy so well that he goes and gets suck jobs. He thinks that Angel has pull over Buffy because he is a vampire and that Dracula had control for the same reason (really it was the questions about her own darkness that enthralled her). That is an insult to our hero.

Buffy tries to protect everyone from knowing she was in heaven. It isn't about trust. It is about hurting them. She didn't want them to know how much she was hurting. She is trying to protect them, not shut them out. They reacted so well when they found out. Her fears were completely unfounded (that is sarcasm).

Next comes Tara. She does trust Tara and tells her all sorts of things. She does connect with Tara. I would have liked to have seen Buffy have a chance to mourn for her. We think of what Willow has lost, but Tara was Buffy's confident. Tara was one sided. Tara really didn't tell Buffy much. I wonder who Tara talked to?

When Buffy hides things, it is a personal affront to the Scoobies, especially Xander. Every secret is met the same way it was in "Seeing Red," "That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. (pauses, softly) It hurt." At least then Xander realizes why she kept it from him, "Maybe you would have, if I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it."

Screw that it hurt you, you huge prick. If Buffy is keeping something, it is hurting her. Get over yourself for just the tiniest moment and realize that when she shuts down it is because she is hurting. She doesn't deserve this hurt because she won't talk. She deserves you to be Mr. Perceptive-guy and pick up on it and get her to talk or even for you to just be there in silent comfort. Buffy will talk eventually. Just back the hell off and stop being an ass. It isn't about you.

Angel did this, when Buffy lashed out at him in the most painful way possible. She comes to LA after Angel gave up everything for her (though she doesn't know this) she says the worst thing possible she can to him. He fights back at first, but can't let things stay like that. He goes back to Sunnydale and patches everything up. When her mom dies, where is everyone after the funneral? It is with Angel she sits under the tree all night and reveals her deepest darkest secret.

Spike knows how to do this, but he kept trying to take her into the dark, so how can she trust him without a soul? He used what she felt against her.

Why should Buffy be connecting to people on this completely unreserved level? No one, other than Angel, has shown her they can handle it. Buffy's love is like the fire. She isn't the only one it can burn.

So that was long too. Sorry.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fortunately, Buffy herself answers the question in "Touched." -- Arethusa, 11:27:39 05/15/03 Thu

Buffy, to Spike:

"I cut myself off from [the Potentials]. All of them. I knew I was going to lose some of them and I....You know what? I'm still making excuses. I've always.....Being the slayer made me different. It's my fault I stayed that way. People are always trying to connect to me. I just...slip away."

Buffy doesn't blame her friends. (And her relationship with Angel didn't prevent her from connecting with others. Her fears, probably of abandonment/rejection, are doing that, and date at least back to her father's abandonment of her after she became slayer.) Buffy blames herself.

The next question is does she understand why she has these fears? And through understanding them, will she overcome them?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not letting the Scoobies off the hook so easily -- lunasea, 15:36:03 05/15/03 Thu

The writers didn't call it the "Mutiny Episode" for nothing. The only ones who were rational and weren't cruel and lashing out at Buffy for how she "wronged" them was Willow and Faith.

Communication is a two-way street. It takes someone who is willing to take risks and someone who makes it so those risks are takable.

Buffy has been cutting herself off from the Potentials. From what I've seen of them, I don't want to get to know them either (and that has nothing to do with them dying). She does talk to Willow, though. When she gets back from the Shadow realm, she tells Willow about her fears. She connects so deeply with Willow in STSP that Willow gets strength from her.

Why did the First go after Willow? Because Willow is a basket case. Buffy isn't going to dump on Willow when Willow has her own problems. S6 Buffy couldn't talk to Willow. That same season we find out that Buffy so talks to Willow that Willow knew what Angel was like when he came back from hell. Buffy talks to Willow about what she saw in the shadow realm. She also gave Willow her strength in STSP.

Buffy may not be a big emotional risk taker for all sorts of reasons, but the Scoobies don't exactly make it so those risks are takable.

The question was why could Buffy be unreserved with Angel. Angel makes sure those risks are quite takable. Xander is a jerk and Willow is a basket case. Dawn is a kid. Giles is all business and not concerned with Buffy's feelings. Wood is just like Giles. Faith was recently bad. Which one should she talk to?

After "Touched" we get Buffy talking to Xander. She wrote a beautiful note to Dawn. We get a great conversation between Faith and Buffy. Buffy talks to Spike. Her threshold for taking has been lowered. Angel shows up and he is already quite takable, what else is she going to do?

Buffy is such the hero that she can rise above the limitations of the Scoobies. All season she has been shouldering everything so that they can get over their own issues. Then when they get a remote handle, they dump all over her.

Buffy can blame herself, because herself is the only one she can change. It really was a two-way street.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not letting the Scoobies off the hook so easily -- Rina, 11:13:33 05/16/03 Fri

["The question was why could Buffy be unreserved with Angel. Angel makes sure those risks are quite takable. Xander is a jerk and Willow is a basket case. Dawn is a kid. Giles is all business and not concerned with Buffy's feelings. Wood is just like Giles. Faith was recently bad. Which one should she talk to?"]

Well, there is an answer. Spike - with whom she actually talked to in "Touched". And again, in "End of Days". Well, actually, he talked to her in the latter episode.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Tara -- Wizard, 20:36:37 05/16/03 Fri

Tara was an exceptional woman. Maybe, if she had more time, she would have opened up to Buffy as well. I think that Tara kept her mouth shut for the same reasons Buffy herself kept her mouth shut so many times- to keep from adding more troubles to somebody that has enough of their own. Tara didn't learn (or if she did it was too late) that a burden isn't a burden when it's shared. Buffy needs to learn this, too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spuffy site? More like B/A site. -- Rina, 10:10:05 05/16/03 Fri

Why would anyone complain about this being a B/S site? Ever since "Touched" aired, everyone has been going hog wild over B/A, as if the episode was a confirmation that they are true loves, or something. And we all know it's going to end within the first minutes of the finale.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If you want to be the most important to someone and you aren't -- Dandy, 15:39:33 05/15/03 Thu

So true. Spike deserves better than somebody who beats the shit out of him physically and hides from him emotionally.
Personally I want to see him on Ats with the most amazing woman they can find.
You go boy.

[> [> [> Re: [sigh]. It's not about shippiness -- Dyna, 11:35:58 05/14/03 Wed

Agree completely, especially on the love triangle-cliffhanger thing. How many episodes and acts within episodes since season 5 have ended with the "cliffhanger" of "will this be the thing that makes Spike turn evil?"--and every single one of them has been answered with varying degrees of "no." Yawn. For this to be the "cliffhanger" ending of the penultimate episode feels forced--a weird point and kind of "off"-feeling point of emphasis this late in the story.

My other issue with the scene is that, in being so overblown--smiles and flirting that seem to disregard the weight of recent events, cheesy music, passionate macking between two people who haven't seen each other for two years, smarmy "give daddy some sugar" acting from DB--it sets up an inappropriately strong contrast to her earlier scene with Spike, and I think in doing so risks undermining a theme that has been central to my understanding and sense of Buffy's character for the last three seasons.

What I mean is, the writers have done really great, subtle work over several seasons to bring out Buffy's fundamental emotional issues--her fear of love and intimacy, her disconnection from others, her fear of "turning to stone" and being no longer able to connect to the ones she loves. Buffy's earlier scene with Spike in this episode was perfectly of a piece with this, and made sense for her as a character. Buffy was inconsistent--telling Spike she's tired of mixed messages and wants them to be honest, but then, when he is honest and asks for her to be honest as well, can only say "I don't know, does it have to mean anything?"--but this is Buffy's kind of inconsistency, in character, kind of sad but not out of keeping with what we've seen from her throughout. Buffy hasn't quite worked up the courage to push herself past that final boundary--this scene showing that she is still unwilling to "go there", wherever "there" is for her, emotionally speaking.

Fine, okay. But what does the last scene with Angel do to this understanding of Buffy's character? I'm not sure this is what ME intended, but having Buffy fall into Angel's arms so unreservedly--and in such stark contrast to her behavior to everyone else for the last whatever period of time--seems to cast not only her earlier conversation with Spike but *all* of Buffy's past interaction with him in a different light. It's not that Buffy is emotionally disconnected and afraid of feeling love! She's full of love and ready to express it, she just needs the Right Guy to show up! Who couldn't get over all their personal issues in a heartbeat for the Right Guy?

It's not that I object to Buffy still feeling love for Angel. It makes sense that she would. It's more that the emotional tone of the scene was so over-the-top that it felt like it was being played as a grand moment of "resolution"--but for things I don't think can be resolved this way. I don't like the "Right Guy" theory. It feels obvious to me, and therefore unworthy of ME.

Of course, I also think that ME just kind of bobbled this scene, going for the fakeout of the "cliffhanger" with no intention of this leading to anything much at all. Which in a way bugs me more than the above!

[> [> [> Sigh...Caro, I hope that wasn't an unmarked spoiler for next week's episode (spoilers, EoD) -- Random, 12:36:06 05/14/03 Wed

Re Spike "going evil. All I saw was him being taunted by the FE and looking upset.

Anyway, as you may have noticed, I didn't mention Spike's little scene at the end. I'm unspoiled about next week, so I have no idea what will happen there. I wonder exactly how you would have insisted the writers write Angel's return? Try to deny that there would be any tension, that the "triangle" aspect would be treated as negligible? Given the context, I have a hard time imagining that Angel could return without these issues coming up. But I also doubt -- though I'm unspoiled -- that the issue will be overwhelming and ruinous. I imagine that, in the space of the short hour remaining, ME hardly has the time or inclination to explore the issue to "Dawson's Creek" levels.

But my main point is unchanged, despite your sigh. Angel comes in and sees his first love after, as you note, at least a couple years. Context? They aren't about to go to a coffehouse and commiserate first thing, talking about their issues, discussing what it means to see each other after so long. That comes later -- if there is a later. They are in the moment I'm observing that you are right. The context matters. The context in this case is fairly straightforward -- Angel hasn't been around for the last few seasons. He isn't looking at the S5 Buffy who goes catatonic when Glory makes off with Dawn, and is faced with the prospect that her sister may have to die to save the world. He's not watching the S6 emotionally-frozen Buffy who separates herself from the rest of the gang, engages in brutal, despair-filled sex with Spike, and watches her best friend go evil. He isn't contemplating S7 Buffy who has come up against an seemingly-unbeatable foe and watched her friends drift off -- and even apparently betray her. Context is important. So is the lack of context. He's watching a revitalized Buffy with a big ol' axe make short work of a superstrong preacherman. She is highly unlikely to know about his recent history -- so she can hardly react to that. Ditto with him, in most respects (we don't know exactly what Willow told him, of course.) Angel is happy and relaxed and just enjoying watching that girl he remembers. He needn't sit there with tears running down his face, remembering Connor and Cordelia, to satisfy context. He can, as anyone can, enjoy that glorious moment when he is re-united with someone he has loved and admired. If it comes to that, we have no idea what he's feeling now. Of course, he misses Connor, loves Connor. But he was also the one who chose Connor's fate. It seems not-unlikely that he feels a certain happiness at the fact that Connor is now happy, that he isn't making it "all about him." I didn't see "smarmy" -- strong word for it -- just a guy watching the girl he loved (loves? who knows?) doing what she does best and enjoying the thing that Faith once tried to explain: knowing that Buffy was gonna win and the bad guy was gonna lose. But each of us interprets what we see differently.

As for the music: I don't really remember it, though I hardly consider it a major plotting development. I'm not gonna base my evaluation of the moment on the basis of background music. And I do agree that the B/A stuff could be melodrama. But the B/S stuff is hardly consistently understated. From Crush, to Smashed, to Dead Things, to Seeing Red: B/S has it's fair share of not-quite-understated moments. If I had my way -- being very much on-record as not caring much for either B/A or B/S -- I would match Buffy up with Lorne. That'd be a cute couple.

~~ Random, who notes that it was nothing more than a 5 minute scene that showed Angel happy and god! what I wouldn't have given in the first 3 seasons to see BroodyAngel act happy on occasion.

[> [> [> [> Here's where the continuity is -- lunasea, 13:07:57 05/14/03 Wed

He's not watching the S6 emotionally-frozen Buffy

And I doubt when they met S6 he saw that Buffy either. When she came back with her bucket of chicken, she was in the best spirits she was since coming back from heaven. Both of them are different around each other. That is part of the beauty of Buffy/Angel--they bring out the best in each other.

People are talking about how this Angel reminds them of Angelus. Remember S1 Angel? "I know what you are thinking. Don't worry. I don't bite." Cocky is pretty good description of Angel's personality when he is himself. Remember what we saw of Liam in "The Prodigal." In "Sense and Sensitivity" his parents "tasted just like chicken." THAT is Angel. Angel tries not to be cocky. Good people aren't supposed to be. He confuses Angelus' personality with his actions and tends to fear and suppress both.

Everything Angel said and did fit perfectly with my image of Angel. It is nice that my image meshed up with the writers' image. I like when things come together like that.

[> [> [> [> Re: Sigh...Caro, I hope that wasn't an unmarked spoiler for next week's episode (spoilers, EoD) -- Caroline, 15:24:54 05/14/03 Wed

I am unspoiled, therefore I don't think that there are any spoilers for the finale. I thought it was clear in the context that I was speaking that I was speculating on a possible outcome of the triangle, not that I had any prior knowledge of the outcome.

I take your point about Angel/Buffy being happy to see each other. I even made the point in my post. But I still think his cockiness was off - as do many other posters on this board who have posted the same. We will just agree to disagree with you on this.

In S6 and S7, most of the Spike/Buffy interaction has been very understated. The only time things between these two got very 'stated', in my memory, was the the house scene in Smashed, the alley scene in Dead Things, the bathroom scene in Seeing Red and the church scene in Beneath You. But this wasn't the constant romantic 'I can't live without you' melodrama of B/A, it was a torrid and destructive relationship getting out of control. However, most of the interaction in early S6 (up to Smashed) and other eps like AYW, Hells Bells, OAFA etc as well as most eps this season has been quite understated - there's been a quiet intensity and Buffy was certainly not emoting in the way she was with Angel back in what cjl calls the 'old school'.

[> [> [> Agree--it's writing and acting -- mamcu, 08:36:15 05/15/03 Thu

It did bother me too from a writing/acting point of view, not a -ship one. I thought it seemed very soap-opera like, very forced, and strange in relation to delicacy of Spike and Buffy earlier, which was very realistic, well-written and acted, up to the point where she closed things off. Why call him back if she's not going to disclose her feelings? That's where I thought plotting for the finale overwhelmed the actual development of character.

[> More than one kind of love... (Spoilers End of Days ) -- WickedIdealist, 10:05:55 05/14/03 Wed

I agree with Random - don't see why it threatens B/S shippers, though.

Buffys been learning about relationships through the whole show - romance, platonic, family, adversarial...

Now she's learning, by experiencing, the nuances of each. The different shades of love, some subtle and others very obvious. Angel is her first love and a great one. Much was bassed on unspoken feelings. It also was a love between two major champions who had very serious missions. They relate to each other in many ways in champion-mode.

Spike was a rough journey, but that relationship was closer in many ways to how regular people might love. The feelings of intimacy were hard-earned and hard-learned. Buffy became more aware of her own processes because of it.

Some people believe you can only love one person at a time, and others believe you can love more than one person at a time. (I'm the latter.) The love felt isn't exactly the same for both because so many different factors are involved and individual personalities.

It all looked natural to me. Personally, I believe Buffy loves Spike as her closest and best friend. And Angel is her one true sweetheart. Spike wants something more like what Buffy feels for Angel, but that's not what it is.

Angel gets parts of Buffy Spike will never have and Spike gets parts of Buffy tht Angel will never have. ("never" as in the the show ends next week.) Different kinds of closeness. Both valuable and honorable.

If BtVS continued, maybe Buffy's relationship with Spike would become romantic. It happens all the time in NonJoss World. Or maybe not.

Some cultures revere the Spike kind of love more than the Angel kind. Others it's reversed. I think both are pretty incredible and equally valuable to be able to have.

[> [> Re: More than one kind of love... (Spoilers End of Days ) -- lunasea, 13:20:46 05/14/03 Wed

It all looked natural to me. Personally, I believe Buffy loves Spike as her closest and best friend. And Angel is her one true sweetheart. Spike wants something more like what Buffy feels for Angel, but that's not what it is.

Exactly. Angel gets the kind of love he wants from Buffy, but can't have the icing on the cake (and that is more than just the sex). Spike gets the icing, but not the kind of love he wants from Buffy.

We feel for Spike, but he is in the *exact* same position as Xander is/was. Why is Xander expected to move on, but Spike isn't? We commend Xander for BBB because he didn't take advantage of Buffy, but Spike took advantage of Buffy in S6. If anyone should get Buffy because he has loved her unconditionally and supported her for 7 years, it would be Xander. He'd give his right eye for her.

But love doesn't work that way. Buffy loves Angel in that way that all the male characters seem to want for whatever reason.

Angel called Cordelia his dearest friend. That is the position that Spike is in with Buffy. To elevate that to romance would say denigrate the dearest friend. There is nothing wrong with co-ed friends. Is the only way that Willow and Xander can be best friends is because she is gay? No. Friends are great, no matter what their sex.

[> More than one kind of love... (Spoilers End of Days ) -- WickedIdealist, 10:09:23 05/14/03 Wed

I agree with Random - don't see why it threatens B/S shippers, though.

Buffys been learning about relationships through the whole show - romance, platonic, family, adversarial...

Now she's learning, by experiencing, the nuances of each. The different shades of love, some subtle and others very obvious. Angel is her first love and a great one. Much was bassed on unspoken feelings. It also was a love between two major champions who had very serious missions. They relate to each other in many ways in champion-mode.

Spike was a rough journey, but that relationship was closer in many ways to how regular people might love. The feelings of intimacy were hard-earned and hard-learned. Buffy became more aware of her own processes because of it.

Some people believe you can only love one person at a time, and others believe you can love more than one person at a time. (I'm the latter.) The love felt isn't exactly the same for both because so many different factors are involved and individual personalities.

It all looked natural to me. Personally, I believe Buffy loves Spike as her closest and best friend. And Angel is her one true sweetheart. Spike wants something more like what Buffy feels for Angel, but that's not what it is.

Angel gets parts of Buffy Spike will never have and Spike gets parts of Buffy tht Angel will never have. ("never" as in the the show ends next week.) Different kinds of closeness. Both valuable and honorable.

If BtVS continued, maybe Buffy's relationship with Spike would become romantic. It happens all the time in NonJoss World. Or maybe not.

Some cultures revere the Spike kind of love more than the Angel kind. Others it's reversed. I think both are pretty incredible and equally valuable to be able to have.

[> [> Re: More than one kind of love... (Spoilers End of Days ) -- Rina, 11:38:15 05/14/03 Wed

I don't think Buffy's feelings for Spike are platonic - that of a close friend. I think she genuinely has romantic feelings for him. Just as she had (or still has) romantic feelings for Angel. But whereas, Angel was her first love - in an adolescent kind of way, her feelings for Spike are more complex, something many adults experience. Think of it. She had her great romance with Angel while she was a teenager. She and Spike went through the messier kind of relationship during her early years as an adult. And now, Buffy is faced with the situation in which she has to decide if she wants to continue focusing upon her adolescent (first) love, or learn to face these new feelings she has for Spike in an adult way.

[> [> [> Re: More than one kind of love... (Spoilers End of Days ) -- fanfromthe1st, 13:21:30 05/14/03 Wed

Wicked well said. Rina I assume you are a spike fan. Angel was not just her high school love he was her true love. I think she cares for spike, but she has never really showed that she loves him. He is there to support her and make her feel better about herself, but when he told her it was the best night of his life she could not return the feeling. there is just not enough time to make B/S what B/A use to be. I look forward to the finale.

[> [> [> [> Re: More than one kind of love... (Spoilers End of Days ) -- Rina, 15:37:43 05/14/03 Wed

Don't confuse lack of demonstation as a sign of lack of love on Buffy's part. Buffy has shown her feelings for Spike, but not in the obvious ways she has, toward Angel. She's not a teenager any longer. Remember?

As for B/S not being the same as B/A - quite frankly, I'm glad. I never wanted another rehash of B/A. Too angsty in an adolescent kind of way. I wanted something different, more complex and mature. As far as B/S is concerned, I'm more than satified.

[> [> [> [> [> Who was confusing that? -- WickedBuffy, 18:45:41 05/14/03 Wed

[> Re: Angel and Buffy, And Poor Spike (Spoilers) -- fanfromthe1st, 11:07:44 05/14/03 Wed

The sad thing is almost everything everyone said is right. No one was more excited to see Angel back than me, but that scence was just weird. I like Spike, but he is so boring now, actually he is whipped now. yuck! His scene with buffy was very sincere, but hers was not. I just want her to let him go and not leave him hanging on like an idiot. From the first she and Angel have been soulmates that could not be together and had moved on, but in all the times they have seen each other since they have never acted that inmaturely. Plus Angel didn't even seem too concerned that buffy was getting her butt kick. As for having them kiss? I hope there is a reason for that besides some stupid soap opera thing. When they showed spike I was waiting for the dramatic soap music to start up and fade to commerial. I have always wanted buffy and angel to get back together, but even this made me sick. I have the first 3 seasons of dvd and have been watching them lately. It is sad to see how far the show has sunk.

[> [> Re: Angel and Spike? (Spoilers) -- Rina, 08:40:57 05/15/03 Thu

I think this little moment between Buffy and Angel, along with what happens between the two in "Chosen" and what happens between Buffy and Spike, which eventually have some consequences on Angel and Spike's relationship on ANGEL, next season.

[> [> Re: Angel and Spike? (Spoilers) -- Rina, 08:54:20 05/15/03 Thu

I think this little moment between Buffy and Angel, along with what happens between the two in "Chosen" and what happens between Buffy and Spike, which eventually have some consequences on Angel and Spike's relationship on ANGEL, next season.

[> I have faith in Joss...("End of Days" spoilers & speculation) -- Kate, 11:34:50 05/14/03 Wed

Obviously from the intense discussion going on about the last five minutes of last night's episode there are many opinions and speculations on what it all meant. I of course have my own opinions and thoughts about what it meant and where it will lead, but the one thing I decided when it was allover was to have faith in the shows creator and its writing staff. I haven't been disappointed so far, especially these last few episodes, so I don't believe I will with the final episode either.

After watching the scene I had a dual reaction of "wow it was nice to see Buffy and Angel together again on screen" and "this better be more than it appears because then what's been the point of Spike's journey for the last few years or even Buffy and Spike's journey this season." And I do think there is more to those last five minutes than creating some sort of soap opera love triangle or cheesy Buffy-Angel reunion. I gotta give Joss more credit than that.

As far as Angel's behavior in the scene, I didn't really see anything wrong with it. My take on his more jovial attitude was it was similar to Willow's appearance on Ats this year. He was out of his world and his problems for just a moment back doing something he loved with someone he loved and he allowed himself to enjoy it. I actually had fun with his appearance there, personally. Plus, on the superficial side, I thought DB looked wicked hot!! lol

On the wild speculation side, maybe the FE was possessing/controlling Buffy and Angel or something. Ya never know. lol Of course, maybe Buffy was just riding high from her defeat over Caleb, feeling all hungry and horny (as we know slayers tend be after a good slay) and Angel was convenient to fulfill the second part. ;) If Spike had gotten there just a moment earlier......gosh darnit! lol

BtVS Tvography -- Darby, 08:02:31 05/15/03 Thu

For anyone who didn't get a chance to see it, you didn't miss much. As a retrospective, it was so-so; in terms of information, they didn't look very deep and it felt very sanitized. A few interesting interview tidbits (can someone place the timeframe from SMG's hairstyle? I'm thinking early S7, with the tiny braids over the front edges) and behind-the-scenes shots, no spoilers. Not a wasted hour for the faithful, but not something to miss work for. Guess I'm still waiting for the E! True Hollywood Story.

There was one moment of true terror: Marti Noxon, explaining Dawn's true nature, getting it more wrong than any person here would, and then laughing about her own ignorance (it isn't that she can't explain it, it's that she either never fully understood it or doesn't really remember it, or both). Explains a lot, I think.

[> I think it was 'Help'... -- Tchaikovsky, 08:15:38 05/15/03 Thu

...in which Buffy wore an outfit almost identical to the one in the programmes, (which is on the Season Six DVD, the only reason I've seen it). That would tally with 'Lessons' being pretty much the last profiled episode.

Totally agree with your review of it.

TCH

[> Right there with you, Darb -- s'kat, 08:20:03 05/15/03 Thu

For anyone who didn't get a chance to see it, you didn't miss much. As a retrospective, it was so-so; in terms of information, they didn't look very deep and it felt very sanitized. A few interesting interview tidbits (can someone place the timeframe from SMG's hairstyle? I'm thinking early S7, with the tiny braids over the front edges) and behind-the-scenes shots, no spoilers. Not a wasted hour for the faithful, but not something to miss work for. Guess I'm still waiting for the E! True Hollywood Story.

Yeah, I caught it too and had some of the same responses. The best people interviewed were Alyson, Marsters, Boreanze and Whedon - they gave the most insightful responses. But nothing we haven't already heard before. So no, people didn't miss much.

Gellar's hair is summer of 2002 is my guess. She was sporting that look right around that time. Now she's sporting the long non-braided look.

Also waiting for the E!True Hollywood Story - which could be really interesting - SMG and CC have been getting some really bad press lately. More SMG than CC. Not sure how much if any of it is true. People are such gossips, you know ;-)

There was one moment of true terror: Marti Noxon, explaining Dawn's true nature, getting it more wrong than any person here would, and then laughing about her own ignorance (it isn't that she can't explain it, it's that she either never fully understood it or doesn't really remember it, or both). Explains a lot, I think.

Right there with you. I heard her say that and went? Really? Then I saw some of the stuff David Fury said at the Succubus Club last night - and guess what? He admits, actually admits that until this season, he didn't really understand Spike's character and was completely wrong about him.Then I hear Marti didn't get Dawn. Whoa! And these were the co-executive producers of Btvs in S6?? This sort of explains what happened in S6 in a nutshell. Joss? You need to inform your writers what is in your head!! (Unless of course he's just making this up as he goes along, in which case...the laugh may be on us. LOL!)

Hmmm...wondering if my obsession with how these things are created could potentially hurt my enjoyment of the shows?
Masochist? Me? Naw.;-)

SK

[> This is unbelievable. Whatever happened to character "bibles"? -- cjl, 08:32:59 05/15/03 Thu

On the original "Star Trek," Gene Roddenberry supposedly wrote a detailed series "bible," detailing who all the characters were, what the Federation was all about, and how he wanted the writers to approach life in the 23rd century.

You'd think that, after Season 3, with Joss splitting his time between Buffy and Angel (and then Firefly), he'd have written full character sketches for everybody, detailing his plans for each (with adjustments when necessary). I can sort of understand Fury misinterpreting Spike (DF is a stubborn cuss)--but Marti not having a handle on Dawn?

I just don't get it.

[> [> Re: This is unbelievable. Whatever happened to character "bibles"? -- Freki, 09:37:50 05/15/03 Thu

I'm sure he had something like that, at least at one time. The difference is that the characters on ST:TOS were pretty much the same at the end of the series as they were at the beginning, while the character on BtVS are constantly evolving and changing. And of course there's been a degree of filling in back stories that weren't previously established, or retconning if you prefer.

I can certainly see someone having trouble getting a handle on Spike, for instance. FFL put a whole new slant on his character, and getting a soul changed it even more. Marti not getting Dawn seems pretty outrageous, though.

[> [> [> Hmmm.... -- Masq, 10:30:06 05/15/03 Thu

When I saw that Marti interview, plus the Joss one where he says, "I don't understand physics.... blah blah blah, I understand emotions", I thought "It's a wonder they get the metaphysics consistent on this show at all."

But they do, for the most part. It's a universe that has, over seven years, pretty much stuck to its established rules, and when it didn't, had a reason for breaking them that still fit the basic rules of the universe.

[> [> [> [> Great point, Masq! And that is what is really important. -- DickBD, 11:09:32 05/15/03 Thu

Besides, I think that Joss is over emphasizing his ignorance of the sciences. I think FIREFLY was the only SF movie or TV presentation that portrayed the soundlessness of space--and I didn't think that it lost dramatic effect. Quite the opposite for me!

[> [> [> [> Yes, and I think the best example of that was... (BtVS, S6 and AtS S4 spoilers) -- Rob, 11:10:37 05/15/03 Thu

...the explanation of how Connor was able to be conceived. They intentionally broke the rules in having a vampire give birth to a child, and yet when they finally revealed how it was able to happen, it made sense metaphysically (and even more importantly, symbolically and emotionaly), that this was the life that Angel won in "The Trial."

Another great example was Buffy's resurrection, that it was possible because she was killed by mystical means, again reinforced when Tara could not be similarly resurrected;

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for recapping the birth explanation -- somehow, I'd totally missed that. -- yez, 14:33:43 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Marti never said she didn't understand Dawn's character -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:43:01 05/15/03 Thu

She said she didn't understand the metaphysics of how the Key worked. Big difference.

[> [> [> Yes. I agree. I actually thought it was cute... -- Rob, 08:05:51 05/16/03 Fri

...and was similar to Anya saying "Yeah! I never got that!" about how the blood thing worked. Because it was complicated and hard to explain to someone not in the know. It's hard to explain to us, and we're in the know!

Rob

[> [> [> [> Oh. Now I feel bad about unnecessarily slagging Marti. -- cjl (apologetic), 08:32:09 05/16/03 Fri

[> In the interviews, SMG, NB & AH were dressed from the ep... -- Kate, 08:37:44 05/15/03 Thu

"Selfless." If you go back and watch you'll see it. AH wore that red top and had the messy ponytail and SMG has the white peasanty blouse and braided hair.

Agree with your review of the special too Darby. But considering "Biography" is geared towards people who might not be familiar with the person or show, in this case, they have to explain a lot to the uninitiated. So doesn't make for a lot of great new stuff for us familiar with the show.

Yes, an E! True Hollywood piece on the show would be so cool. lol That show is d@mn addictive I tell you. Maybe in a few years...or around the time of the reunion movie like "90210" this week. lol

[> I liked it. -- Masq, 09:24:59 05/15/03 Thu

Made me so sentimental for the high school day eps.

Gave a good bird's-eye history of the series for the completely uninitiated (I imagined my never-seen-BtVS friends watching it and gaining some insight).

Should have taped it. Do you suppose it'll be a "special feature" on the Season 7 DVDs?

[> [> Re: I liked it. -- Anne Ng, 09:34:29 05/15/03 Thu

The tvography special is currently included in the newly released European S6 DVD's so we will probably get it in a year.

[> [> [> Re: A&E best moment for me: JM with guitar rehearsing "Rest in Peace" -- Brian, 19:59:26 05/15/03 Thu

[> If they didn't understand a character, all they had to do was READ THIS BOARD. geesh -- WickedBuffy, 10:08:58 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> ...unless it's about The First Evil. They're on their own with that one. We're fairly clueless. -- WickedBuffy, 10:16:09 05/15/03 Thu

[> I liked it a lot.... -- Jacki, 13:30:29 05/15/03 Thu

I didn't really mind Marni Noxon messing up Dawn's history...I got a good laugh out of it, because we all know she *has* to know the full story...it's just not an easy story to tell, and especially not on the spot. I have no doubt that she knows the Dawn story, but just couldn't explain it well.

Other than that, I thought it was entertaining!

[> "The Slayer" -- skyMatrix, 16:19:03 05/15/03 Thu

I've been watching DVDs lately so I felt like all the clips of old Buffy took away from time we could possibly be hearing insight from the actors/Joss/Marti. I didn't feel like it was a wasted hour or anything, just that there wasn't that much new here.

I think Marti has a reputation for joking about her ignorance of Buffy continuity that has got her into trouble before (the "What's My Line" commentaries come to mind). I imagine she does comically exaggerate it; after all, would a proper explanation of the Key thing sound any less weird to a Buffy novice? So she might figure, why not just have fun while explaining it. It's probably not the best humor to use when your fans are so dedicated and have everything down cold, however!

The most interesting thing, to me, was something I wasn't even supposed to see. They showed brief glimpses of two articles from Variety or some other industry magazine in which a show called The Slayer was being announced as a midseason replacement. I know Joss has said that he had to insist to WB that the show was not Buffy (although I noticed one of the promos they showcased used this as the title) or Slayer, but I didn't realize that WB was actually announcing to people a completely different title for the show, and Joss forced them to change it that late in the game. Consider the implications of a show named The Slayer... they could replace SMG and call it the same thing! ;)

people with no life??? -- fleur-de-lis, 08:57:17 05/15/03 Thu

How come whenever any of us Buffy junkies mention the depth of our obsession, we get ridiculed and told "TV is for people who have no life??!!" Of course I have a life (with lots of interesting stuff) but my love for BTVS plays an important part in it. (OK, so I was trying to get some of my fellow Buffy lovers here at work to come to work next Tuesday wearing black (along with me) for appropriate mourning attire at the show's passing.) All I got were weird looks, snarky comments and the above mentioned comment that obviously I had no life. And the crowning absurdity--that BTVS was "just a TV show."

Bunch of unfaithful acolytes and crusty minions! May the First Evil curse them with their eyeballs eternally glued to their high-definition TV sets--tuned to the Home Shopping Network.

[> I've found you can't reason with people about "Buffy" -- Scroll, 09:53:06 05/15/03 Thu

They either get it or they don't, it's really hard to convince them to take "Buffy" or "Angel" seriously because they've never had the experience. Well, I just feel sorry for them. They don't know what they're missing!

[> [> LOL, that reminds me -- ponygirl, 08:23:13 05/16/03 Fri

... of a drunken bonding experience I had with a stranger over Buffy at a party a few months ago(she lived in Waterloo, and for a time I was trying to suss out if she was you, Scroll). We ended the evening by expressing our pity for the non-Buffy watchers at the party, loudly and in extensive detail. It was pathetic but oddly satisfying.

[> Re: people with no life??? -- graylady, 10:17:24 05/15/03 Thu

No life indeed! People who say things like that just want to feel superior to someone. Feel sorry for them or just ignore them.

[> Sadly, I might react the same way if a co-worker wore black to mourn the last Baywatch episode. -- WickedBuffy ... it's all just personal tastes, 11:32:14 05/15/03 Thu

... but that First Evil curse does sound like a great idea.

[> [> A black bikini? -- Dandy, 12:51:00 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Good point. A black mourning bikini or thong would alter my reaction. -- WickedBuffy (ranging from delight to utter horror), 14:24:17 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> In homage to Madonna from "Dick Tracy"-- yeah, got plenty of black underwear.... -- fleur-de-lis, 14:32:21 05/15/03 Thu

[> My life -- lost_bracelet, 17:09:27 05/15/03 Thu

I work full-time as a writer, take care of a small household, have a relationship with a partner, have a cat, take a walk every day, take T'ai Chi class twice a week, read a lot of books, see movies, have friends, cook, write letters, and keep a daily journal.

My guess is that most people on this discussion board have similarly full lives.

Sports fans are people who waste hours and hours and lots of emotional energy over some men running around on a flat space obsessing over a ball. Try hurling this same "no life" accusation at sports fans and just see how defensive and obnoxious they get.

Minear & Fury at the Succubus Club, and Minear at Angel's Soul (S5 cast spoilers) -- HonorH, 09:25:02 05/15/03 Thu

Didn't get a full transcript, but here's a few highlights:

--Full admission that Cordy's S3 arc was a mistake.

--They're not saying exactly what purpose Spike will serve on AtS next year, except that he will be a "foil" for Angel.

--CC will be back, though not as a regular, at her request.

--VK will be back "at some point". The writers had a brief discussion about possibilities, some joking, some kewl.

--The guy who played Holden will be back as Knox. They like him a lot.

--Lilah will be back, as will a new W&H female antagonist.

--Gwen might be back, but she's signed on to a movie right now.

Later, at the Angel's Soul board, people were getting pretty panicky about the supposed suckiness of next season. Minear's words of wisdom and exasperation are well worth reading:

***

>>Plus alot of people are kind of worried about the effect Spike will have on the direction of Ats.<<

That I understand. But take out "Spike" and substitute with "Lorne," "Fred," "Kate," "Cordelia," "Gunn," "Wesley," and on and on. It's always the same. Not saying we always serviced each and every character as well as we might have, but I do think that we have pretty much earned each of these characters a place on the show and not "ruined" things. And after four years people crying foul about any new addition (cast bloat!) only to come to love these characters in varying degrees, I might say that maybe *I'm* a little "ticked off" at not even being given the benefit of the doubt before even a single new episode has been written! Now who should be offended? Of course, I'm being offended-by-proxy (as proxy?) since I'm no longer even with the damn show. But just sayin'.

***

HH again. Minear's right. We haven't seen any of S5. It hasn't been written or filmed. Think back to the various hysterias of yesteryear:

"Doyle's dead! This sucks! The show is ruined!"

"Wesley's on the show? This sucks! The show is ruined!"

(HonorH here: as someone who loved Wes from the beginning, I'd like to indulge in a moment of Smug.)

"Willow's gay? This sucks! The show is ruined!"

"Darla's back? This sucks! The show is ruined!"

"Buffy's got a new sister? This sucks! The show is ruined!"

"Lilah's going to be the chief W&H baddie now? This sucks! The show is ruined!"

"Angel's having a baby with Darla? This sucks! The show is ruined!"

May I wrap this up with a plea for everyone to not judge AtS S5 until we actually have something to judge? Please, people. I know emotions are running high right now, and I'm right there with you, but being upset because the perceived direction of Angel isn't what you want won't help anything. Give it a chance.

[> Here's a link to a site where you can download the full show-- -- Dyna, 09:38:29 05/15/03 Thu

http://www.joelhume.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

The previous week's interview with Jane Espenson, Rebecca Rand Kirshner, and Drew Greenberg is also really interesting.

[> [> So when is someone going to do a written transcript of these interviews? -- Masq, 13:18:57 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> <backs away worriedly> -- Tchaikovsky, 14:25:03 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> hmm... -- pellenaka, 16:18:31 05/15/03 Thu

I have thought about giving it a go with the Drew Goddard interview but I have some problems separating the two girls' voices.

[> [> [> If I find a transcript I'll make sure you get a link or a copy here. -- Rufus, 19:42:17 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> 'cuz Succubus Club is like, two hours long... -- dub ;o), 20:30:43 05/15/03 Thu

I started trying to transcribe David Fury's admission that he was totally wrong about Spike's character all along, and couldn't even finish that...

;o)

[> So my question is.... -- bell456, 11:56:28 05/15/03 Thu

....who does ATPoB have to sell it's soul to in order to get a ME vip to post here? Or do they fear HonorH's fashion commentary too much to show up?

[> [> Didn't we already sell our souls to Voynak the Impeder? -- HonorH, 12:54:31 05/15/03 Thu

As for Honorificus, she'd forgive all for a chance to cozy up to Drew Goddard. If they wouldn't mind sending him in as a sacrificial lamb, I'm sure the rest of them could get along fine no matter what they were wearing.

[> Yay! (S5 spoilers) -- pellanak, 16:21:04 05/15/03 Thu

The guy who played Holden will be back as Knox. They like him a lot.

Yay! He is so cute.

If Andrew dies (what I sincerely hope that he won't), Knox will be my new Andrew.

And then Andrew and Knox could play D&D. (I love saying that sentence)

[> [> *sigh* I can't even spell my name right tonight -- pellenaka....pellenaka....pellenaka (that's better), 16:22:31 05/15/03 Thu

[> Semi-full Transcript...(Casting Spoilers for S5 Ats, spoilers to LMPTM Btvs) -- s'kat, 22:10:50 05/15/03 Thu

Listening to it now and here is a semi transcript:
[]= mine and () mine or summaries
Tim Minear (TM) and David Fury(DF). Commentator (C)
Angel (ATS) and Firefly (F)

Lots of typos and mistakes I'm sure. It's late and this was hard.

TM: David F has very deep and sultry voice, smoked bunch of cigs to help.

Had a hand in breaking stories to ep .7, after Firefly, got back at ep .15 and wrote that story with Mere and came back for finale. [so he co-wrote Orpheus]

TM: Left for F for ep.7, before started production after DG, there was much involvement, then F took over completely and I was accused of abandoning, not naming names, came back, quality spiked then dropped when I returned, strang

DF: offices over at there were comfortable, all F/Btvs/Ats
were together. Ats = WB, Btvs=PAramont, F= Fox.

(Voices hard to figure so excuse mistakes)

[huge section regarding a joke on pretzel keg...can't possibly transcribe it all. And other silly writers jokes and geeky stuff. ]

I spent more time on Ats this year - lots of time downstairs, disenfranchised from Buffy, he went to Ats b/c of TM. Not involved on breaking on Buffy this year.
First time. spent more time on Ats. TM - kept saying come on to ats, you and me buddy...then tM left and he went you suckered me!! But he was there in the beginning of season at least breaking stories, so we felt he was there.
It was okay, fine. Weird year - started out with someone new and thrown in a position couldn't possibly follow. We become sort of a machine. Lot of growing pains. (joke about the show Growing pains) Bell clicked in to do the day to day.

And picked up.

C= that's the big news, talk about later... b/c there's talk and like to talk about the talk.

[Break - 2.5 minutes - Bif Naked's - no clue what it is but I don't remember it from Buffy. Not that good IMHO. Something about banging my head and not hearing a word I said in the chorus. ugh. Ah Moment of Weakness is the name. And the song goes out to Jasmine, AlexisWEb from HLOD. Uhm sorry it wasn't - that's Lucky. ugh ]

C= Down to the wire and we thought we were going to lose both shows...did you know?

DF= Ats was always a bubble show, the network waits until last minute. We didn't know this year, really didn't know.

Sat down with and editor and did all the cool stuff we did the last two years and didn't assume for a moment that network saw it. 20th sent us a tape of another show they'd sent and their's was lame clip packet and said do something like this. So we said we'll do something cool. (The clip package was roswell).

TM - went in there with a movie like one. DG, JW, JB and TM
and decided season finale was really a pilot for next year.
AI offered LA branch of W&F and had to go in pitch it and they have to do it every year. But this season was more drastic. Last year they did a major cliffhanger. But this year was far more serious - major question mark. The direction we're taking was to entice us. Joss pitched it early in the year to writers and they realized they had to change it. Is it too arcy, too soapy, too dark, can new viewers get into it? Can we get more sunlight.

C= was it you

TM= Joss

C= connor coming back?

TM= we decided this before we even cast the role. We had the prophecy that the father would kill the son - but we wanted to go to the Stella Dallas place and decided it way before we cast it. Didn't know exactly how. didn't want to kill him exactly, wanted to do a twist on it.

Don't remember whose idea it was to do - probably Joss, but we all discussed and really loved it. The whole notion of taking away free will for happiness and Angel fighting that and then doing that for his son really felt right.

DF= we knew CC was the Big Bad for A4. But CC was pregnant so how are we going to do Angel doing a fight with the big bad pregnant lady.

it was Tim's idea for both Willow and Darla back, not all Joss. What we came up with CC's pregnancy was that the child - Jasmine would be the true Big Bad. And not big evil guy - no a woman, and it's not an evil woman, but someone who'd bring peace.

TM= we were so bored with the big evil kung fu fighting bad guy.

Jasmine - had a garden of evil element - except there are rules.

TM= CC - initially wanted her to come out of her coma and put her fist through Jasmine's skull. But didn't work b/c CC couldn't work those hours at that point in her pregnancy, all she could do was be in a coma for a part of the period. So we had to work around her. Sometimes things just are the mother of necessity.

C= Why Cordelia as the BB ?

DF=[they always planned it] There's no drama in a love that can be. It creates an emotional resonance for the good mother to turn.

TM= when we had her ascended into heaven...we hated that turned us off, gave wrong thing

DF= actually we didn't know where to go with her there. So we had to figure out where to go from there.

[This was confusing section - voices overlap]

It was her - her body used by this thing. The C/C wasn't supposed to be sexy. It was supposed to disturbing and creepy. TM =No way sexy fun, creepy goodness

DF = no way to bring her back the way she was before, I loved the original Cordy, but since we wrote her out of that, we couldn't

TM= we did erase her memory and tried to bring her back with old Cordy. But we want them to grow

The problem this year was we had an actress who was pregnant...if she hadn't been pregnant we'd never have done it.

Reason I wanted to bring Darla back in Inside Out to bring the closure. But our hands completely tied b/c Cordy got pregnant and had to put it in.

C= she'll be back?

TM/DF = she'll be back in some way, we need closure. She needs to come out of the coma and she is part of Angel and important to his arc. He's longing for her. Always hanging over him. Cares about her as his love.

TM = don't want to see him pining for her.
Talked about not finding her - but a complete repeat of last year.

TM= wrote as a season final, not series final, wrote it as a pilot for next season.

c= would new season include Connor

DF = not in the capacity we had. They'll be an episode where he'll be. Too familiar to Dawn scenerio.

TM= wants to do the episode where possibly these parents have a kid with super-powers and come to Angel for help.
Always try to write from Angel's pov. There's this kid and here's this guy really cool - but he doesn't get him as a dad and that kills Angel because he is the dad, and the father keeps killing the son over and over again.

(Okay this was hard - so will try to fill in gaps, apparently Connor had been written to always exit in a manner like this - either to be killed directly by Angel or in a twist. Also Cordelia was always meant to be S4 big bad because of the emotional resonance of having Angel deal with his love becoming evil and the surrogate mother of his son being so. But CC got pregnant and screwed up the story line - so they had to write around it. And came up with the JAsmine arc which Whedon pitched. Sounds like they really do work collaboratively on this and Whedon throws ideas out and everyone comes to a consensus and plays with it. At any rate I think they were very focused on the theme that Angel is dealing with the father killing the son. Also the whole free will idea of - Angel fighting for it - then as a twist removing it from his son)

[Break song is Pavlov's Bell by Aimee Mann. YES!! My favorite song. Thank you.]

DF = Sleeper - wrote teaser in first act

c= how does getting credited work?

DF = whoever's really up, gets first crack. Story didn't break until half way through it and I was writing Angel 10 at same time. LMPTM - had to prep my episode, 3 kids , and couldn't do it - went to Goddard and asked if he would write it with him b/c had no time

Peace-Out - he didn't write the fourth act, SDeknight wrote the fight scene, Craft and Fain wrote the last scene.

Sleeper - glad to have name on. Doug Petrie actually wrote second act. Aimee Mann wrote the song.

C= Firefly - what's the sit with that.

TM = cancelled, but airing in UK - hello, watch the Sci-Fi channel where it's airing. Sci-Fi channel in US? Not big on Sci-Fi. The whole season, with three unaired episodes, and the gag reel and commentary is coming out on DVD. Beyond that, all can say is Firefly not yet dead.

Going to write a show for Fox called Wonder Falls - so sort of leaving. (Originally called Maid of the Mist but bad title.)

DF = Tim will always have place to go.
C= no more Angel?
TM =I'm gone. I'm executive producing and writing the new series.
DF = Twin Peaks like. about a girl who works in sovenire shop in Niagra Falls and they talk to her and don't know if TM:it's god or what. Or if she's insane. Todd Harland who directed pilot and Malcom in Middle is with it. Going to happen after World Series. talking about mid-season and launched off of American Idol.

Sunday night is the most watched night of TV. So will be put there. Very high profile show. Mid-season very good time.

C= What will be doing? (lots of joking about Buffy ending)
DF = Not sure if he will be staying with Angel
SDeknight, Drew Goddard, JBell, (if angel hadn't been picked up TM would have picked up DGoddard), Mere has left - she's completely gone, Ben Edlund is there and was a huge part of firefly and we wanted him, Craft and Fain definitely staying. Fury has some offers - I'm officially an consultant, if I come to Angel - they'd have to make a whole new deal with me and Angel is operating on a smaller budget next season and Buffy was very low budget and 1st season was shot on 16 mm of buffy. Anyways...they had to cut back on expenses.

TM = DB went out of his way to get the show renewed. He promoted it. Went to all the talk shows. Went out of his way. Really is on board for next year and Really Really excited to be back.

DF = WB wanted more out of Buffy World, WB never gave its due until this year. This year more than ever - were responding. Gave calls - great episode.

TM = the Execs at the network love the show, but not in charge of picking it up. Decisions made by people in NY. Had to crunch numbers. Show saved itself.

DF = Doing very well on Sunday. Best in that slot of anything. Numbers go up in 2nd half hour. Which is a big deal. New for the season. Good reviews. Great demographics.

TM = moved it to Wed's after Smallville, finally realized put Superman and Batman on same night.

DF = Know where Smallvill comes out, (ours we don't)

(jokeing about Dawnson's Creek season finale)

[Break. Song: Mrs. Xander Harris - the song from Selfless.
Cool!!! ]

(Filling in gaps - apparently DF may or may not be on Angel next year. He didn't sound like it though. Tim Minear definitely isn't. Nor is Mere Smith. The definites are: Joss Whedon, Drew Goddard, Craft and Fain,Steve Deknight, Jeff Bell, and Ben Edlund)

(lots of joking about Drew Goddard.)

C= when does it start breaking

DF = starts in June. Something we've done before, we often break one or two before go off. But didn't do it this year. So come back a little early to do it. Last year late soon.
Joss will be writing and directing first episode of next year.

C= JM - what was decision

DF?TM = No brainer. James was always. We're going to keep James employed b/c he's great. We love him dearly.

Now getting hatemail Spike or I'm ruining Buffy. Silly.

James is coming back as Spike. We really haven't worked out what he'll be. He'll be a foil.

TM:Faith spin-off, I was going to do it with JM and Faith.
After that fell through and definitely bring him over for some episodes not make a regular, but was one of the things network wanted. we like James so decided to bring him in.
He's terrific. But we don't know what he'll be. Except definitey a foil

C= Second Billing?

DF/TM= we don't know.

We did NOT push anyone out to make room for Spike. Connor story ended the way we wanted it to. We love Vincent but that was the way the story wanted to tell itself. We did not in any way push aside characters or push them out to make room for Spike

DF= there will be more female characters, some seen before and some new ones.

TM/Df = Jonathan Woodward - who played Holden was in the last unaired Firefly. He is wonderful and was in Tim's Firefly episode. He's a star.

C= Gwen?

DF = yeah we love Gwen. The thing about Gwen is run the risk a little bit - take away a little bit from the main character.

TM = originally designed to come back. Look for a female protoganist/antogaonist in the mix. Lilah will be back.
Not sure what they'll do.

(TM - mentions that Angel did do statutory rape on Buffy, since she was 16 at the time not yet 17, turned it just after and it's not legal. )

(okay filling in the gaps during the music break - they talk so fast - apparently, there's been a lot of comments that Spike pushed out the other characters - and that is simply NOT true. Connor's story was written before he was cast. They had decided it would end at the end of S4. They always planned on keeping James MArsters - whether the spin-off was slayer school (male lead) or Faith - he'd be there.
When that didn't happen they decided to bring him on for a few episodes on Angel. The network made it clear that they wanted James as part of the series and it was the clincher.
So they compromised and agreed to make him a regular to get the series picked up by the network, but this really wasn't a problem since they adore James Marsters and think he's a terrific guy. What his role will be? They aren't sure yet, but he will be a foil. The commentary asked if he'd be a villain and they said that wasn't really it and no, more a foil. Damn! Now I'm going to be searching for spoilers all summer. Also Joss Whedon is writing and directing the first episode of the season. Please note that these guys aren't still with Angel so - while they may not know what is coming, joss definitely appears to.)

[Music - selection from When She Was Bad]

(still joking about Drew Goddard - now about Buffy)

DF = She'll be gone regardless. She's on to movies now.
(joking about Scooby Doo now)
C= Talk about the run?

DF = still freelancing, didn't come on permanent until the 4th season. Joss always thinks of me being around since the begining , met him when Joss was in development first year.
Great experience to be part of something so meaningful to people. Once in a lifetime thing to find a show like Btvs that changes face of entertainment. Alias inspired.

TM = Joss' joke, only show on WB not trying to be Buffy is Angel.

Df = wistfullness, knowing part of it, great thing JW gave me. Hope can live up to it and other work can mean as much.

C= What are your thoughts on this season?

DF = The season's been - we struggled a little with the arc, b/c FE's inability to do any harm itself and the new girls potentials became very crowded and diffused. Did good work within that. It gets to the heart about what Buffy means. When people take a step back from it after the season is over - will have more affection for it.

Anyone who really thought about last season - very dark and compelling - but necessary if tell the story telling. We had to earn her coming back from dead and it's difficult story - too quickly feel cheated. Characters grow and change need to do it. As much as have affection for early years - is false for us to go back and recreat it, creates pain but also creats interesting stories.

(Commentators go on about their opinions)

TM = trace back to an episode when Spike ruined the show
DF = was school hard.
I got this hate mail about how Spike was the Fonzi. He was the cool character with leather jacket which we wrapped the show around and that's NOT how we write our shows. Spike provided Buffy with an emotional through line she wouldn't have and Angel was gone, own show, making him her nemesis and mortal enemy at first was interesting way to go.
now I wasn't for B/S but I rationalized that.

LMPTM - they thought we were changing the whole vampire mythology - Spike is an anamoly in the vampire world. We tried to say it in the very beginning in Surprise, his mother, he is something special, he retained some part of his soul or compassion that was always there that allowed him to fall for Buffy. Whatever we told was always there.

TM = don't have to rationalize it at all - the vampires retain the human personality, of course they'd care.

DF = with Spike, there's something different about him.
A vampire without a soul was able to fall for a slayer.

(Agreeing he was a sensitive bad poet not a jerk like Liam.)

TM = always amuses me when people say that people can't love without a soul. They can love quite well. Evil people can love even with souls.

Love and obsession not necessarily a force for good.

DF = chip triggered things from consciousness, all emotions from human side came forth and he was suddenly able to care about Dawn and Joyce.

(Lots of spec on the finale and the writers trying to say zip and the commentator is driving them nuts. ugh)

((Joking about the hate mail and fan response on Spike. TM and DF really joking about these fans.)

(Filling in the gaps - apparently Spike took over Angel's place in Buffy for the emotional arc. They state how he's always been different - that he retained a portion of his humanity and how they've gone out of their way to distinquish each vamp. There is no indication btw that Spike won't go evil before the end and won't be a villain on Angel next year. Nor is there any indication that he won't be a good guy and turn good. They really don't paint it one way or the other. Fury says he had problems with the Spike story, because he felt it was off-track but has reconciled himself to it, early on he felt need to justify, but now he gets it, Minear seems really confused by Fury's reaction and said he didn't see why he ever had to rationalize it.)

C= asking Tim about Buffy.

TM = I never worked on Buffy. She was in one of my episodes of Angel.

DF = I'll talk to Tim about Buffy story.

TM = to me its bigger than Buffy, working with Joss, David and crews, writers - incredibly rich experience, no ennui b/c my relationships will always continue. Goes beyond job.
This was the best film school and got to direct, first directing on Angel. First time directed network tv show. Been making films since a kid. Better than a movie, because get to write, direct and constantly change things as I'm directing. I didn't work on Buffy.

(Lots of chit-chat and annoying joking.)

David Fury - I got so much hate mail from singing. Really.
TM - can't imagine getting the hate mail for singing.

(He sang the mustard song with Tim Minear.

Okay it's wrapping up. And I'm exhausted it's 1 am.

Tried to keep objective.

SK

[> [> Actually it's pretty complete except for the jokes -- s'kat, 22:11:55 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Tim and David on the Connor arc -- Rufus, 04:27:00 05/16/03 Fri

Kitty and Candy asked about the Connor arc..was he supposed to leave....

Tim: It was a thing that we had discussed long before he was ever even cast the role. That perhaps Angel would end up you know....we knew we were going to go to a Mordred place, we knew we were going to that sort of epic, mythic, place with father and son. I think it was in season three that I had that prophecy the father will kill the son, and that was a place we really were considering going. Now, we didn't know it was going..

David: How it was going to end up...

Tim: that it was going to necessarily shake out like it did, cause we decided we didn't want Angel to kill Connor in the way that he would kill him, but we wanted to go to a Stella Dallas place.

There was a question on who decided the seasons ultimate ending....

DF: You mean Connor's new life?

K&C discuss how unhappy Connor was..

Tim: I don't remember who's idea it was but I think I would probobly be safe in saying it probobly was Joss's idea...I know it was a thing that we all had discussed and I just love the way it shook out cause the Jasmine arc actually wasn't something we really planned at the beginning. But the whole notion of taking away free will for happiness and Angel fighting against that and ending up doing that for his kid, I just love the ironic....

DF: Those are happy accidents.. the whole Jasmine arc was an offshoot of ...once we discovered that Charisma was pregnant..we knew she was going to be the big bad of the season. We didn't know what we were going to do. We knew she was coming back and that she wasn't going to be her...entirely...and we were going to do something with that..what we didn't know was ...how are we going to climax the season with a woman who is nine months pregnant fighting Angel. You know the big fight with the nine months pregnant lady.....Um then of course her knowing that she would be giving birth around episode 18 or so....We went...well we have to think of what are we gonna do now? And you know the pregnancy...we debated for a long time about how to work it in..we had done Cordelia pregnant "demonically pregnant" so we ..

DF: But what we came down to, with Jasmine, was once we realized she was pregnant then whatever she was giving birth to must become the Big Bad...and it wasn't til fairly late so we were breaking the stories that...I know..who's this decision was...Joss...that she would be this...we were thinking the big bad would be this guy, and it was going to be this big powerful guy and it was later that was....no...it's a woman and she's not some big evil woman, she is wonderful, she's going to bring peace and tranquility and with that was a great twist after the Beast cause how can you know...

Tim: We were so bored with the big giant Kung Fu fighting monsters.

DF: And my big plan is to destroy the world and create chaos.

Kitty and Candy mention they were waiting for Jasmine to do something evil.

Tim: She did eat people.

There is a discussion about a few thousand for millions (ends justify the people buffet).

DF: I think she had a genuine argument to make, she was going to make. It was taking away free will, but she was providing....there was a Garden of Eden, but WE make the rules, and you can't choose to eat this apple.

Tim: Initially we wanted Cordelia to come out of her coma in ep 18 Peace Out and put her fist through Jasmine's skull, but she couldn't do it. She couldn't work the hours we needed..she could come and be in a coma, and I remember directing her and telling her....."Inaction!"..and she was great.

DF: A lot of our..some of our best ideas just come out of necessity....

Tim: Sometimes it's the Mother of.....

Kitty or Candy: Invention?

DF: Or of "inaction"

The above is only a fraction of the interview..I left out most of what Kitty and Candy said and I left out some ummms, and the like. The basic stuff is what happened in that section of the interview. I've decided any mistakes are shadowkats........;):):):):):)

[> [> Thank you so much for doing this SK!!!! & a belated thank you to TCH for OMWF transcript! -- cynesthesia, grateful lurker, 23:44:59 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Thanks. I'm glad someone appreciated it. It was alot of work. -- sk, 05:47:27 05/16/03 Fri

And not something I'm likely to EVER attempt again.
But thank you for that cynthesia...

Understanding now what TCH and Rahael go through - but at least they can stop and re-listen to the DVD commentary.
This thing I typed literally while they were talking.
Since only one person seemed to appreciate it? Never again.

[> [> Thanks shadowkat!! Bless your typing fingers! -- ponygirl, 07:12:25 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> Yes, thanks so much! -- Dariel, 11:58:55 05/16/03 Fri

Really appreciate this. My silly computer is so slow, it was going to take an hour to download the interview.

This interview reminds us of just how hard it is to tell a good story. You can plan all you want, but if an actor wants to leave the show (thinking Oz), or gets pregnant like CC, you're left scrambling for a new storyline. Life will always impinge on a good story/fantasy!

It was nice to see DF agree that Spike was always different from other vamps, that he retained some of his humanity. And that the chip brought it out even more, as many fans postulated. I always thought DF was softer on Spike than people realized. At least, I always liked his portrayal of the character, Crush included, no matter what Fury said in interviews.

Reading this made me sort of sad--not sure why. Guess it's TM and DF going elsewhere, and BtVS ending.

[> [> Thanks. Just got to read it. Incredible work. -- fresne, 16:58:21 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> Thanks guys...sorry -- sk, 21:23:46 05/16/03 Fri

sorry for the snippiness in the post earlier...bad week, so my negative energy carried over. Thanks for the responses.
Mucho appreciated.

Current board | More May 2003