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Willow - Giles' new protegee' -- Rina, 15:42:29 05/14/03 Wed

Has anyone else noticed how Giles seemed to focus more on Willow, instead of Buffy, these days? I'm not complaining, mind you. But I do find it interesting. I guess Giles needed to act as some kind of father figure to someone.

[> Once a teacher, always a teacher! :> -- WickedBuffy, 19:07:52 05/14/03 Wed

[> Re: Willow - Giles' new protegee' -- PartlyCloudy, 22:16:01 05/14/03 Wed

Hmmm, 2 possible reasons for this?

1) Giles was there over the period of time Willow spent in the Coven in England trying to recover from her crash & burn last spring. I'm sure he feels more connected to her after that. No one else saw her go through it, so he might have a deeper insight on where her head is at this year, or feel some sort of responsibility (subconsciously, perhaps?) to keep an eye on her in a sense.

2) Giles & Buffy have not exactly seen eye to eye this year, well, more than ever before and especially after LMPTM. They've lost some of their easy manner with each other. Willow, when she's not all evil & vengeance-bound, has always been more, I don't know, pliable (someone have a better word?) when it comes to the "authority figures." Plus she also has the big brain thing going on, which seems to be a haven when either/both of them feel helpless. So if Buffy is incomprehensible to Giles lately, interaction with Willow might be like second-second nature... er, third nature?

I can't believe this but... -- Alison, 16:15:37 05/14/03 Wed

I don't WANT to read analysis for End of Days..it was so perfect an episode IMO that I don't even want to touch it. It literally had me on the edge of me seat in every scene, loving every moment, and those last five minutes that every one but the B/A shippers seem to have hated- I loved them. But then I always was a masochist. I physically hurt for Spike and while I felt Angel was off, I don't think B/A was lacking in chemistry. Since it was such a perfect, emotionally wrenching experience for me, I can't help hoping that a few other people enjoyed it as much as I did. Sorry for the rambling..just my two cents.

[> oops...spoilers for end of days above -- Alison, 16:20:57 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> Alison, you can sit over here in the "very happily satisfied" seats with me -- LittleBit, 16:42:50 05/14/03 Wed

I too enjoyed just about every minute of it. The only thing I didn't like was they went and stopped it after only 42 minutes of show. I even liked the fact that we saw a good use of Kennedy's bossiness...without her they might have lost all the SITs there.

Still just smiling and basking.

[> [> [> Joining you in the comfy seats -- Veronica, 16:51:59 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> Even happier to know I'm in such good company -- Alison, 16:53:36 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> I'm there, too. Think Rob's around . . . oh, he's out on the field, cheering. Nice knees! -- HonorH, 17:47:34 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> I get the beanbag seat! And stop bogarting the Dove Bars, Bit! -- Random, 18:07:46 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> Count me in on the party!! Anyone for chips and salsa? :) -- Kate, 19:47:43 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> I wanna be with the cool kids too. So make room, please -- fidhle, 21:28:07 05/14/03 Wed

[> Also reclining in the 'happily satisfied' seats after thrill of EOD (NT) -- darvangi, 20:46:55 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Also reclining in the 'happily satisfied' seats after thrill of EOD (NT) -- jane, 21:24:09 05/14/03 Wed

Count me in! I'll bring brownies(or maybe Nanaimo bars).

The effect of BtVS on my life -- SS, 17:06:58 05/14/03 Wed

I just read Random's message and I also want to say how much I have enjoyed reading your thoughts about the show.

I have generally been a "lurker" here since I discovered the board, mainly because, well, I haven't picked up a philosophy book in over ten years, and I didn't think I could keep up with you.

But I want to share this anyway. The effect of BtVS on my life:

I have a grandmother. If she will make it to her next birthday in August, she will be 98 years old. Due to personality clashes between my mother and myself, my grandmother mostly raised me as a kid. For the majority of her life, she had a hard life, but she still believed purely in God, in "Good", and in doing the right thing. She gave everything of herself. And in the end, how did fate respond?

She has been legally blind now for 26 years.

She has had dementia for 7 years.

She has been paralyzed for 3 years.

The doctors have told us that she has two weeks to live...off and on...for this reason or that...since last November. In hospice at home...complete with morphine for her pain, etc...

Eight years ago, when I was 22, watching as gradually every day in her life brought her new trials and tribulations, the person I loved and was loved by most in this world...I started getting angry. And over the course of years, the same arguments cycled in my head:

WHAT KIND OF GOOD GOD WOULD ALLOW HER OF ALL PEOPLE TO HAVE TO FACE THESE THINGS! I seethed.

IF GOD FORCES PEOPLE TO HAVE THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THEY DESERVE, IF (HE, SHE OR IT) LETS (HIS, HERS OR ITS) BEST PEOPLE GET LITERAL HELL ON EARTH, THEN WHAT GOOD IS HE! I raged.

My faith....shattered. And gradually my personality began to change. When I was in highschool, I was like Anya. I was very judgemental, and even often wrongly so. But at least I cared about right and wrong. And tried to do right.

But after my faith shattered, I stopped caring about right and wrong, and I started only caring about what I could or couldn't get away with. Fortunately, I didn't think I could get away with almost anything so I pretty much stayed on a version of "the good and narrow". But even still I didn't for the right reasons.....

I remember seeing the original promos for BTVS before the show even aired....Vampires? Great! A show with immortals just like Highlander! And I remember a promo with Sarah in a Victorian era dress...so I thought there would time travel elements too...just like another favorite of mine, Quantum Leap....(even though it really didn't come out like QL)

And so I watched the first episode on the night that it first aired...and it was even better than I expected.

And so I have watched all these years....

But I was still angry. And my anger turned into depression. And my depression started to effect my job...so I started getting counselling.

Only problem? When I went to counselling, I wasn't really listening. Everything I heard my counsellors say I thought they were only saying because thats what they were taught to say...supposed to say...

But I would turn on my tv to get entertained by a butt kicker named Buffy....and when my defenses were down I listened...

To a story...of a girl...who even though wasn't real, was generally written realistically with all human faults...who was chosen...like my grandmother was chosen...to bear an incredible and undeserved burden....to do right, and get rewarded for it by injury and death...to do incredible right without most of the world ever knowing what she did for them...just like my grandmother....

and that even with all of her injustices...it was still alright.

Why? Because of the message that the show repeated over and over...even if not in words.

Grace is about getting what you need...not about getting what you want or what you deserve.

Now don't get me wrong, I know it is a tv show, and not real, but the message is real. And was shown realistically, because the way, for the most part, characters react on the show is realistic, even if they are not in realistic situations.

And on the show, Buffy isn't the only character that showed that message.

I would give particular examples of scenes in the show to demonstrate what I mean, but then I think I would need to put "spoilers" in the above caption...and I want everyone to be able to read this.

I would see that message and I began to see examples of that message in my everyday life....

I began to "understand" that I may not know what God has in store for other people.

I began to understand how everyone is so complicated that judging them would be impossible if for no other reason than because I could never gather enough facts to make a good go of it.

And I began to understand a few other things too, but I think you get the picture....

But most of all, I began to "understand", as much as I think I can "understand".... That my grandmothers pain...her hardships....her handicaps...that they were not about her getting what she deserved...but what she needed...and HER relationship with God.

The effect of BtVS on my life? A greater peace through understanding. The beginnings of rebuilding a relationship with God...a God that doesn't have to be perfect incidentally....

And lest you think I am starting to get overly sappy...and maybe even Touched by an Angel kinda sappy....

I still have a bit of work to go. I still don't visit my grandmother that much. And for no other reason than because I hate thinking that that could be me one day. But I think I am progressing. I now listen to my counsellor.

If I am missing something I wanted to say I can't think of what it would be other than this:

Thank you all the people on this board for helping me to see things I missed in the show...

But most of all....but as I truly believe that someone from the show monitors this site (if for no other reason but legal). I want to say this to all of you at BtVS...and especially to Joss...

"Thank you. Even if you only meant the show for entertainment and for ratings and for advertisements (which I don't believe but even still) you still helped me. Thank you."

SS

PS. If you think this could have been written better somewhere, made something clearer, please tell me. I am not used to writing like this.

[> That was wonderful, SS. I remember you talking about it in chat quite well. Thank you for sharing. -- Random, 17:31:54 05/14/03 Wed

[> universal medicine -- cougar, 18:52:51 05/14/03 Wed

"and when my defenses were down I listened..."

SS, I'll bet that resonates with a lot of people.

I first started watching Buffy when two people close to me were dying. It was a hugely demanding time, I felt I had to be perfectly
strong for them. In the end at Hospice I witnessed both the cruelty of impending death but also awesome levels of humanity, dedication
and teamwork from the people working there.

It was such a crucible of human drama and Buffy became a vessel where I could safely explore my feelings about it all. Life, death, calling,
duty, love, loss, meaning, helping and on and on. None of my peers had had similar experiences yet, at least not as prolonged and
intense as mine. It takes time to emerge from it. Time when you don't have to put up a facade of strength.

Then I found the board, and it's another vessel that contains elements that support my humanity. Wit, thoughtfulness, play and
scholarship, a community of heart and mind. It has lead me to books and interests that have helped too. Now it's mostly for fun but
there was a time when it was really needed.

The characters, myths and dramas of the show personified some of my own feelings, and this board helped me to see the universality
of that. I'm taking what I learned here with me, for always.

[> Superb -- KdS, 04:57:32 05/15/03 Thu

That, to me, is what has always made Buffy far more than the average action or fantasy show. The ability to accept darkness without lapsing into cynicism or nihilism

[> Thanks for posting this! ( preserving this thread :-) -- OnM, 05:08:45 05/15/03 Thu

[> What a great post! -- Marie, 06:25:50 05/15/03 Thu

I'm one of the not-at-all-philosophical posters, always just glad if anyone bothers to reply to anything I put on(!), but I have great admiration for everyone here, and your post in praise of BtVS and the board was lovely to read.

Thank you.

Marie

"End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (The Uber-Fashionable One), 17:40:47 05/14/03 Wed

Disclaimer by HonorH: The below views are entirely those of my Super-Evil Alter-Ego, Honorificus. I do not share them. Well, okay, maybe about Anya's cardigan, but that's as far as I'll go. So don't complain to me about her being rough on Spike, in particular. She's just bitter.

Thank you, Super-Loser Alter-Ego. Now that we're done with that . . . . What a downer of an episode, without even a naked Wood to take the edge off. A few good bits, but otherwise, this is another for the Infernal Flames. I'm starting to lose confidence that Joss is truly evil. But who knows? He could give us the out-and-out bloodbath we've all been craving for so long after all.

Fashion Statements
The Good
Dawn's red shirt with the embroidered neckline and sleeves. Another coup for our rookie Fashion Plate.

Buffy's denim jacket. Great cut, wonderful color--enough to make an incredibly ordinary piece of clothing something you can look at.

Buffy's makeup was a picture this time out. Loved the colors and the smoky eyes. Oh, and the earrings--must get a pair of those.

The burned-and-battered look on the Potentials.

Giles in blue. *Sigh*

Angel's outfit was downright suave.

The Bad
The Potentials as a whole, but I'm singling out Amanda this time around. Not even soot and blood could raise that outfit from the Urple Depths.

Xander's loathsome Western-style denim button-down. The antithesis of Buffy's tasteful jacket.

Anya's flowerdy cardigan. Bleah! And why did she have to go blond again?

Andrew's jacket continues to be unforgivable, even if I was into forgiving, which I'm not.

Why, oh, why didn't Buffy cut off Caleb's head with its atrocious haircut?

Plot in a Nutshell
Some Potentials get roasted and Faith gets poached, leading Buffy back into the questionable arms of her comrades. Much mushiness ensues. Xander chloroforms Dawn, who returns the favor with a stun gun. Caleb gets gutted.

Demonic Quibbles and Comments
Somebody's been playing with the Seal again. Turok-hans galore!

Guardians. That's all I can say. Guardians!

Body Count
Not nearly enough Potentials.

My lunch, what with all the Sappy Emotional Scenes.

One old-woman-type Guardian.

Caleb . . . or so it seems!

Highlights
The Potentials carnage.

Three Turok-hans! Weren't they adorable?

The Potential getting ripped apart. Poor Turoks must have been so hungry. Of course, she was a skinny little thing.

Xander chloroforming Dawn.

Dawn tazing Xander. They keep this up, I'll start to think they'd make a good couple.

Speaking of couples, gotta love the First and Caleb joining. Sexy!

Anya depressing the wounded Potential.

Spike's widdle heart getting broken by Buffy and Angel snogging. Loser!

Lowlights
Not enough Potentials dying.

Buffy slaughtering the Turoks. What a beast she is.

All the crapola about the Sacred Weapon. So very tiresome.

Shmoopy speeches. Buffy to Xander. Buffy and Spike to each other. Anya to Andrew. Buffy's letter to Dawn (thankfully cut off before it got too maudlin). The Guardian (thankfully cut off by Caleb). Buffy and Faith bonding over their lonely souls.

Anya and Andrew bonding. My stomach hurts.

Buffy defeating Caleb. Boo!

Burning Questions
Do the Potentials actually have loyalties, or are they just going with whoever gets the fewest of them killed this week?

So how are we getting the Turoks? Did the Bringers round up some fleeing Sunnydalians, or what? Has Caleb been doing some sacrificing in between bouts of flirting with the First?

What good is Giles anymore, aside from looking at him?

Why didn't Buffy chop off Caleb's head? Doesn't she know enough to realize that you don't defeat someone like Caleb unless he's in Many, Many Pieces?

Is Andya the next 'ship? Will someone please kill me if it is?

Has Dawnie gone evil? If not, why did she taze Xander? Overreacting against being overprotected? Either way, I like it!

So what exactly did happen to Miss Kitty Fantastico?

The Immoral of the Story
Never draw attention to a Sacred Weapon. Don't tick off Dawn. And Spike, you're not the center of the universe for Buffy. You never will be! Hahaha!!!!

Overall Rating
Okay, so I cheered up a bit. This one goes higher than last week with a pimiento-flavored qwerty on the Non Sequitur Scale.

[> Re: "End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- Pushy Queen of Slut Town, 18:19:10 05/14/03 Wed

I'm stepping out of semi-retirement to point out only one missed fashion highlight of the episode...

Faith beaten and bloody. Since the girl stubbornly refuses to be evil again, we should ackowedge that her bruised, cut, barely able to move look has become her best style. They just can't beat this gal up enough.

And my heart was all aflutter over the reappearance of the Turak-han. I feel a massive party coming on.

Is Andya the next 'ship? Will someone please kill me if it is?

If they do make Andya the next big 'ship, I will offer my humble services to kill you, enslave your minions, chop you up into many, many parts and assume the throne of your dimension. It's the very least I could do for one so obviously disturbed by the carnal involvements of these lesser being -- all of whom need to get laid more often anyway.

[> [> the Turak-han seems to have suffered from the borg effect -- 110v3w1110w, 20:40:38 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> What IS the Borg Effect? -- The Puzzled Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 09:37:48 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> The Borg Effect (or: Watering Down an "Invincible" Enemy) -- cjl, 10:05:22 05/15/03 Thu

The first appearances of the Borg on ST:TNG were truly awe-inspiring. They were unified in mind and mission. They were unemotional and relentless. They nearly destroyed the Earth at the start of S4, and were stopped only by Crusher and Data "hacking" into a weak spot in the collective consciousness through Picard. Trek fans knew that the next time the Borg showed up, they'd correct the weakness.

But with each subsequent appearance, the Borg have been less and less terrifying--they were watered down. (On Voyager, Janeway and Co. ran rings around them.) The low points were "Descent" in TNG S7, when Picard and Co. were dropping Borg drones by (apparently) pulling out their nutrition tubes(?!) and the recent "Enterprise" ep, "Regeneration," in which Archer and Reed zapped at least six Borg drones (SIX!) with phaser fire before the collective adapted their shielding. Inexcusable.

SEE ALSO:

Jem Hadar (ST:DS9)
Turok-Han (BTVS)

[> [> [> [> [> Think the point, so to speak, is the opposite in this case. -- HonorH, 14:15:25 05/15/03 Thu

The scene with Buffy offing the three Turoks in EoD wasn't meant to "water down" an enemy--it was meant to display the power of Buffy's new weapon. Think of all the effort that went into destroying Noodles. Now Buffy gets her shiny new scythe, and not only does it terrify Caleb, but gives Buffy the ability to slaughter Turoks like they're regular vampires. That would be the thrust, so to speak, of that scene.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! -- Rob, 14:50:50 05/15/03 Thu

The scene was not to show that the Turok-Han have become easier to kill. Just see how all those Potentials were helpless in their wake, to the point that they had trouble fending off just one, let alone the others that showed up. The scene showed that these monsters that are almost incapable of being defeated can be easily offed by Buffy's new superweapon. Unfortunately, there is only one weapon and thousands of Turok-Han lurking beneath Sunnydale's surface.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Too bad it isn't sheep that kills the Turok - we know how to clone those. -- WickedBleat, 14:58:15 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> You forgot her weapon sings. Anything that sings is invincible. -- lunasea, 15:52:04 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Pre-STNG, it might be described as a hive mentality, like bee's. -- WickedBuffy (pod people? anthill? Cordelias S1 clique?), 10:28:57 05/15/03 Thu

[> Re: "End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- ponygoyle, 20:13:35 05/14/03 Wed

You are kind and generous in your review o mighty Honorificus - therefore I believe you are growing weak. (Anyone who wants to talk coup meet me later. I'll bring tortilla chips if someone can grab the salsa.) Despite a promising start with the Potential parts flying and the Turok-han shredding, the episode quickly degenerated into nothing but "let's work together with a renewed sense of purpose, despite turning on each other like a pack of rabid weasels last week," or "let's share our feelings," or "let's put on lots and lots of lip gloss." I agree with Amanda, we are being punished. I enjoyed the wheelchair scene because at first I thought, "finally someone's being proactive and self-lobotomizing before they have to hear any more speeches!"

On the plus side, it's good to know that the guarantee on that bottle of Guardian's Own Weapons Polish I bought is accurate - not a smudge on that scythe no matter how many years in a rock!

[> [> Re: "End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- Shiraz, 12:04:50 05/15/03 Thu

"On the plus side, it's good to know that the guarantee on that bottle of Guardian's Own Weapons Polish I bought is accurate - not a smudge on that scythe no matter how many years in a rock!"

Yeah,

and who knew they had high-gloss candy-apple red Rust-oleum (TM) in ancient Egypt (or was that Ireland)?

-Shiraz

[> [> Oh, dry up, 'goyle. -- Honorificus (The Most Kind And Generous One), 12:46:47 05/15/03 Thu

I'm trying to be optimistic. I was, believe me (or my minions, who spent hours cleaning my carpet after the episode), just as nauseated as you by all the "let's work together" crapola. I'm attempting to be heartened by Dawn's stun-gunning of Xander (come on, was she ever cuter?) and more Potential deaths, and also the thought that the Joss is simply setting them all up for a fall in the finale. The alternative is rather unthinkable, after all.

But rest assured: if my hopes are dashed, I shall unleash all my venom upon the series finale. Then you will know what I am truly capable of. Oh, yes, you will know!

[> Bitch, I like your style; but where's the evil? -- MagicBone, 20:25:04 05/14/03 Wed

What are you? In line for sloppy seconds? Too few potential have died, you must be tightroping a sensitive subject there. Don't be afraid ultimate evil, run wild and free. And always remember, they all deserve to die. And if you're not sure, they probably will. Yeee! Are you staring at Xander's eyepatch? It is so funny that he can't return the slight.

If you're wondering if I'll shoot my mouth off more, there are always more. Wheelchair fight? Not quite politically incorrect enought for me, but... Officially, I don't care about the f*cking pussy cat. I might have killed it myself if I would have kept track of all the small fuzzy, furries that I have executed.

My scythe does matter. Oh yeah! You better believe that frat demon!

Love ya!

[> [> You young fiends these days. -- Honorificus (Who Is Never Over-The-Top), 13:05:01 05/15/03 Thu

No sense of subtlety or irony at all. The truth is, no matter how many Potentials died, even if all of them bit it in a gruesome way, I'd still say it wasn't enough. Sense the irony. Smell it.

Now, dear, I love chaos, bloodshed, and corruption just as much as the next demoness. However, one mustn't lay all of one's cards on the table all at once. Don't appear to demand too much at once. Honestly, what *did* your matriarch teach you? Start off with, "Give me your firstborn child and your soul!" and you'll scare off your target right at the outset. No, offer a few compromises, just to get them going your direction, and gradually lead them to the downward slope of Hell itself. Much more satisfying. Hold back a bit, and then unleash.

Because believe me, if the Joss creature disappoints me next week, I shall unleash in a truly fearsome way.

[> You've won -- cougar XOXOX, 20:25:22 05/14/03 Wed

You mocked and taunted them till they all went away. Even Giles. You slayed 'em, you really slayed 'em, H!

That's why we love you.

[> One creature's answers to Burning Questions -- Saguaro Stalker, 21:50:20 05/14/03 Wed

Do the Potentials actually have loyalties, or are they just going with whoever gets the fewest of them killed this week?

Most of them loyally root for the Sunnydale High Razorbacks when school isn't abandoned on account of monsters in the basement, on campus, etc. Otherwise it's a 'get me home alive or I'm outta here' kind of thing.

So how are we getting the Turoks?

You didn't think they were all boys Turoks did you? Didn't your Mommy teach you about the birds and the killer bees?

What good is Giles anymore, aside from looking at him?

I'm stumped. Give me a hint. What good was he ever?

Why didn't Buffy chop off Caleb's head? Doesn't she know enough to realize that you don't defeat someone like Caleb unless he's in Many, Many Pieces?

What and get her pretty new axe even more icky? Goodygoods just don't get the basics sometimes.

Is Andya the next 'ship? Will someone please kill me if it is?

Fortunately all the time set aside for showing everybody having sex is filled for the rest of the series. The worst we can expect is they'll sit next to each other on the bus to the final, zoowie, endall, this-is-it, no kidding, final fight. But, if were lucky Xander will come home, find them together kissing, get very jealous and mad and make them sit in separate rows on the bus.

Has Dawnie gone evil? . Alas no. Tazing dates and driving home as fast as possible is what girls do on dates these days. At least the girls I ask out.

So what exactly did happen to Miss Kitty Fantastico

What? I didn't think you liked left-overs.

[> Re: "End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- Mightor, 01:53:26 05/15/03 Thu

Other life lessons to be learned here: Just cause you knocked an opponent out with one punch in each of the last two fights and now you are powered up to your absolute maximum, don't foolishly think that punching her twenty times will get the job done because she's got the writer on her side now.

And, oh yeah, the word 'axe' has now been officially changed. Axes are now known as scythes and scythes are known as a word to be named later.

[> [> Re: "End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- Mightor, 01:57:26 05/15/03 Thu

I completely neglected the stylishness of the axe I mean scythe. Forged centuries ago using modern lightweight metals, modern bolts and a modern paint job, it is the height of ancient weapons stylishness, guaranteed to go with whatever the well-dressed slayer may be wearing.

[> [> [> Ooh, I like you! -- Honorificus (The Brightest Star In The Sky), 14:55:44 05/15/03 Thu

Both snarky *and* fashionable. You must come to my bacchanal next week. Clothes are strictly optional, but sacrifices are appreciated.

[> [> [> Shiny Red Pleather is always an intriguing fashion statement. -- WickedNaugahyde, 21:38:04 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Scythe is the weapon of death and death is her gift. Much prettier than an actual scythe -- lunasea, 15:59:43 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Scythe is the weapon of death and death is her gift. Much prettier than an actual scythe -- Mightor, 00:24:15 05/16/03 Fri

And an axe is much easier to wield in combat than an actual scythe.

[> Too bad about Wood. Everyone else has far too much hair. -- Medusa and her snakes, 04:54:12 05/15/03 Thu

[> Re: "End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- Dee (visiting, and loving these reviews), 06:43:54 05/15/03 Thu

Honorificus...I visit this board to read your super-evil reviews ever week (did I mention how great they are?). Have you ever considered putting them all together in order, for those of us who missed some? That would be the best "End of Buffy" treat that I can imagine.....

[> Re: "End of Days": The Super-Evil Review -- Rina, 08:34:58 05/15/03 Thu

This is the review?

[> [> Memo to self: Must teach Rina the basics of toadying. Preferably painfully. -- Honorificus (The Most-Toadied-To One), 12:50:57 05/15/03 Thu

[> Burning Answers spoilers EOF & promo -- WickedGoddard, 11:22:37 05/15/03 Thu

Do the Potentials actually have loyalties, or are they just going with whoever gets the fewest of them killed this week?

They go with whoever feeds them. Which is overridden by whoever takes them to bars. Which would be overridden by whoever got them dates. All which would be overridden be whoever got them machine guns and grenades.

So how are we getting the Turoks? Did the Bringers round up some fleeing Sunnydalians, or what? Has Caleb been doing some sacrificing in between bouts of flirting with the First?

Do we really know if Turoks were humans at one time? No, we don't. The Turoks all closely resemble their late father, Principal Snyder, who was a prolific asexual demon. He had hidden several nests of eggs under the school and around the school grounds. Turoks hatch in about 2-3 years, fully matured and very hungry.

What good is Giles anymore, aside from looking at him?

It's more of a patriotic statement than a plot choice. England must be represented! After losing the Brit SIT, Giles became the only representative left. (It was actually a casting toss-up between the two. Giles won solely for not mangling the english accent.)
*btw, have you noticed there are no French SITs?

Why didn't Buffy chop off Caleb's head? Doesn't she know enough to realize that you don't defeat someone like Caleb unless he's in Many, Many Pieces?

The writers thought that would make the finale too unrealistic. Caleb coming back to life and confronting Buffy with his head under his arm might have even come off as funny. They did, however, consider having her deliver the seemingly fatal slice about 8 inches lower.

Is Andya the next 'ship? Will someone please kill me if it is?

There would be no one else left alive to kill you. You'd have to do it yourself, just like we all did.

Has Dawnie gone evil? If not, why did she taze Xander? Overreacting against being overprotected? Either way, I like it!

Dawn was always evil, but also naive. Someone (probably Anya), once told her that tazering is a form of foreplay. Dawn has had her demonic eye on Xander for quite some time. Didn't you wonder how convenient it was that she even had a tazer on her?

So what exactly did happen to Miss Kitty Fantastico?

Can the writers make it even clearer about the real Dawn? Miss Kitty Fantastico's 9th life was ended as a shish-ka-bob on Dawns hibachi. You don't even want to know how Dawn pulled off the first 8 deaths. Or, if you do, be sure to tune in to Tvography's Miss Kitty Fantastico special.

[> [> Re: Burning Answers spoilers EOF & promo -- Honorificus (The Never-Obsequious One), 16:11:02 05/15/03 Thu

Do the Potentials actually have loyalties, or are they just going with whoever gets the fewest of them killed this week?

They go with whoever feeds them. Which is overridden by whoever takes them to bars. Which would be overridden by whoever got them dates. All which would be overridden be whoever got them machine guns and grenades.

Are you sure the last two aren't switched around? But then, getting them dates seems rather unlikely to me. Kennedy managed it, but then, she's got a tongue stud.

So how are we getting the Turoks? Did the Bringers round up some fleeing Sunnydalians, or what? Has Caleb been doing some sacrificing in between bouts of flirting with the First?

Do we really know if Turoks were humans at one time? No, we don't. The Turoks all closely resemble their late father, Principal Snyder, who was a prolific asexual demon. He had hidden several nests of eggs under the school and around the school grounds. Turoks hatch in about 2-3 years, fully matured and very hungry.

I always liked Snyder. He was surprisingly demonish for a human, so I thought. I truly appreciate you clearing this up for me. May I eat your brain?

What good is Giles anymore, aside from looking at him?

It's more of a patriotic statement than a plot choice. England must be represented! After losing the Brit SIT, Giles became the only representative left. (It was actually a casting toss-up between the two. Giles won solely for not mangling the english accent.)
*btw, have you noticed there are no French SITs?

Okay, dear, perhaps your brain has already been eaten. Have you forgotten about a certain Britpunk vampire, or are you just repressing his existence because of the horror of his latest Shmoopy Speech to Buffy?

Why didn't Buffy chop off Caleb's head? Doesn't she know enough to realize that you don't defeat someone like Caleb unless he's in Many, Many Pieces?

The writers thought that would make the finale too unrealistic. Caleb coming back to life and confronting Buffy with his head under his arm might have even come off as funny. They did, however, consider having her deliver the seemingly fatal slice about 8 inches lower.

Which I wouldn't have minded. I mean, let's face it: while Caleb was rather endearing, being a super-powered psychotic serial killer and all, the woman-hating thing was frankly unpalatable.

Is Andya the next 'ship? Will someone please kill me if it is?

There would be no one else left alive to kill you. You'd have to do it yourself, just like we all did.

Very true. The small, mewling fashion disasters that could result from such a union hardly bear thinking upon.

Has Dawnie gone evil? If not, why did she taze Xander? Overreacting against being overprotected? Either way, I like it!

Dawn was always evil, but also naive. Someone (probably Anya), once told her that tazering is a form of foreplay. Dawn has had her demonic eye on Xander for quite some time. Didn't you wonder how convenient it was that she even had a tazer on her?

Well. That answers it. Although I was under the impression that she found the stun gun in the car. Unfortunately, as there was also a sword in the car, I'm afraid my hopes for her evilness might be dashed. A truly evil minion would simply have killed him, thrown his body from the car, and driven back.

So what exactly did happen to Miss Kitty Fantastico?

Can the writers make it even clearer about the real Dawn? Miss Kitty Fantastico's 9th life was ended as a shish-ka-bob on Dawns hibachi. You don't even want to know how Dawn pulled off the first 8 deaths. Or, if you do, be sure to tune in to Tvography's Miss Kitty Fantastico special.

I'll skip it. Cute cats give me the willies, unless they're on the dinner table.

[> [> [> Smoldering re- Answers spoilers EOF & promo -- WickedGoddardRedux, 21:13:24 05/15/03 Thu

"Are you sure the last two aren't switched around? But then, getting them dates seems rather unlikely to me. Kennedy managed it, but then, she's got a tongue stud."

Perhaps. But we didn't know about Kennedys tongue stud until lately. Perhaps all the SITs have piercings we've yet to see. There really haven't been any group shower scenes to prove otherwise.

"I always liked Snyder. He was surprisingly demonish for a human, so I thought. I truly appreciate you clearing this up for me. May I eat your brain?"

Certainly. And how nice of you to ask, first. But I should warn you: every time it's been eaten before, it's just as swiftly been regurgitated.

"Okay, dear, perhaps your brain has already been eaten. Have you forgotten about a certain Britpunk vampire, or are you just repressing his existence because of the horror of his latest Shmoopy Speech to Buffy?"

(re: my edible brain - see above.)You caught me. I've always considered Spike a country unto himself. A recently unstable Pompei-type country after that speech though, as you so clovenly pointed out.

"Which I wouldn't have minded. I mean, let's face it: while Caleb was rather endearing, being a super-powered psychotic serial killer and all, the woman-hating thing was frankly unpalatable."

Still hungy, I see. But you wouldn't have to eat his woman-hating thing, just chew around it.

"Very true. The small, mewling fashion disasters that could result from such a union hardly bear thinking upon."

You've just succeeded in giving my worst nightmare its own nightmares with that visual. Catwalks of the future will all have anti-Andya fashion restrictions.

"Well. That answers it. Although I was under the impression that she found the stun gun in the car. Unfortunately, as there was also a sword in the car, I'm afraid my hopes for her evilness might be dashed. A truly evil minion would simply have killed him, thrown his body from the car, and driven back."

But a truly VERY evil minion would have kept him alive, thrown his body in the trunk and driven to a deserted barn to further torture him. Which she just might have done.

"I'll skip it. Cute cats give me the willies, unless they're on the dinner table."

But the Miss Kitty Fantastico special on A&E covers all her deaths, including the one which ends up on Dawns dinnerplate. Watching it is the next best thing to snacking on one.

[> [> [> Re: Burning Answers spoilers EOF & promo -- jane, 01:18:19 05/16/03 Fri

LOL!(NT)

[> [> French SIT's have already surrendered and are working for the First -- JBone, 17:58:11 05/15/03 Thu

Scheduling therapy now -- Ms. Pointy, 19:08:29 05/14/03 Wed

I just wish I'd discovered this board earlier... Found it a few months ago and have been avidly lurking ever since, soaking up the philosophical banter, insightful critiques and the amusing (well, not all of the time) snarkiness. It has made me feel not so alone in my love of all things philosophical and other-sophical on BtVS. Heck, it's made me feel part of a ...
.. ahem ... I'm feeling an urge for a group hug. ....
Damn and a big sigh .. I can't wait to see next week's episode but I am also dreading it. I will miss the show, but also this board. (tears shorting out keyboard, gotta go)

[> You people are turning me into a "weepy chicken"! -- cougar, going to dry off now, 20:18:38 05/14/03 Wed

[> You need not give up the board. Angel is still going to be available for philosophical dissection. -- The Rhys who is NOT Rhys-Michael, 23:05:01 05/14/03 Wed

[> There's always the archives... if you start now, you can be done with them around 2007! -- OnM, 05:14:06 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Aren't they being published as a series of e-books? Like a set of BtVS encylopedias? -- WickedEditor ... };>, 10:21:53 05/15/03 Thu

Buffy: Favorite seasons? Favorite episodes? -- lost_bracelet, 23:34:25 05/14/03 Wed

Favorite seasons: 3 (last year of high school) and 6 ("I hate being alive again")

All-time favorite episode: "Restless"

I also enjoyed:

Season 2:
"Halloween"
"Surprise" and "Innocence"
"I Only Have Eyes for You"
"Becoming," Part 2

Season 3
"Anne"
"Band Candy"
"The Wish"
"Amends"
"The Zeppo"
"Earshot"

Season 4:
"Fear, Itself"
"Beer Bad"
"Something Blue"
"Hush"
"Who Are You"

Season 5:
"The Replacement"
"Fool for Love"
(Worst episode ever: "Triangle" from Season 5)
"The Body"
"The Gift"

Season 6:
(pretty much all of them, but especially:)
"Life Serial"
"Once More, with Feeling"
"Tabula Rasa"
"Smashed"
"Wrecked"
"Gone"
"Older and Far Away"
"Hell's Bells"
"Normal Again"
"Grave"

Season 7:
"Same Time, Same Place"
"Help"
"The Killer in Me"
"Lies My Parents Told Me"

As you can see, I like the unique ones ("Hush," "Restless," "The Body," "Once More with Feeling," "Tabula Rasa"), the funny ones ("Band Candy," "The Zeppo") and the backstory ones ("Amends," "Fool for Love").

I detested the whole Initiative/Maggie Walsh/Riley plot.

[> Re: Buffy: Favorite seasons? Favorite episodes? -- skyMatrix, 00:09:33 05/15/03 Thu

These lists do tend to resemble each other after a while, so I thought I'd just salute you for your praise of Season 6 and your praise of largely-maligned eps such as "Anne," "Beer Bad," "Wrecked," and "Gone." I'm not exactly saying that any of the above are among my favorites, but I think it does go to show that everything is ultimately subjective, and it makes me feel better about enjoying other eps usually assumed unlaterally to be utter dogs, like "Inca Mummy Girl," "Gingerbread," "Where the Wild Things Are" (the Scooby stuff, not the B/R sex of course), and "Older and Far Away." Much of the Buffy community does seem to resent anyone challenging fan orthodoxy as to what is good and what is bad. Luckily that doesn't happen much or at all here, but I guess I still felt like making the point.

And btw "Triangle" is a great episode, how could you??? ;) J/K!!

[> [> Is there a consensus? A ramble on tast, creation, etc, slightly OT -- s'kat, 06:40:05 05/15/03 Thu

I'm not exactly saying that any of the above are among my favorites, but I think it does go to show that everything is ultimately subjective

I agree with you on this one skymatrix. Completely.

I've been reading the lists on the boards since December 2001 and have come to the conclusion that there is no clear consensus. I think one poster, Etrangere(?) tried to do a tabulation last year on his/her site asked us all to rank the episodes each season and see which one was the best.
Not sure if she/he got any results. Jbone has tried it with the character games on his site and came close to getting one.

But the truth is? While you can find a few episodes that get on most people's lists as best and most as worst - I've never seen episodes appear on everyone's lists in this manner. There's always someone out there who disagrees.
And they'll do so vehemently and have a wonderful convincing argument, but hey it won't change your mind. Heck if we asked the ME writers - I bet they would have favorites that contrast with each others. Just as the cast and crew probably do. I don't think we can ever come to a consensus regarding taste. Considering Btvs and Ats aren't tops in the ratings? We're all sort of in the minority in the popular taste contest to begin with. The majority of viewers prefer Seventh Heaven which got picked up prior to Btvs on WB and has been renewed two more seasons. Most people don't like science-fiction or fantasy shows. Most of my friends don't. I had to come online to find people who did. Look at the Emmys and Academy awards or even the National Book awards and Bookner prizes - when was the last time a science-fiction, horror, fantasy genre show, movie or book won an award or was even nominated for more than mostly tech stuff? How often?

So if we take into consideration the fact that we take up a very small area of the population pond regarding taste in just likeing and being fanatical about Btvs and Ats, then it shouldn't surprise us that we'll continue to run into a lack of consensus and even smaller ponds regarding tast. (not stating it surprises anyone here - speaking generally).

Why people like what they like - is a topic that really fascinates me. What is it that makes one person, lost bracelet for example - love Wrecked and hate Triangle and another person, hate Wrecked and love Triangle? What is it that makes one person love Btvs and hate say Seventh Heaven and another love Seventh Heaven and hate Btvs. Or someone
hate Ats and love Btvs or vice versa? What in our makeup governs our tastes? Is it based on genetics? Environment?
Experiences? Souls? Personalities? Peer relationships?
What our friends like? Our parents and families like? Or all of the above? Is it even something we can figure out?

We've had several debates in the past few months - that really when you get right down to it, come down to personal taste. The debates on the Storyteller - actually seemed to come down to whether people liked the character of Andrew. If you liked or even found Andrew remotely interesting - you probably liked Storyteller. IF you didn't like Andrew - you probably hated Storyteller. But that again isn't a definitive answer - since there are those frustrating souls like myself who just refuse to be that easily pigeon-holed.
Some people liked Storyteller but aren't fond of Andrew - they loved the metanarrative aspects. Others disliked it because of Wood or again the metanarrative aspects. No consensus even on why the people liked or disliked it.

Market research firms and marketing analysts get paid money for trying to figure out why people like things and pin-point trends in taste. If they can figure it out - bottle it - then they can make tons of money. ME and other tv shows have marketing people scanning the net figuring out tastes of fans, which characters work, which don't, which relationships generate fan interest, what stories would work and generate a following. So do publishing companies.
Before a publisher decides to publish a book - they check to see if it meets a trend, if they can sell it, if anyone would be interested. So when you pitch a book or tv show or movie - you hunt for successful movies/books, etc that are similar to your work and demonstrate how well it sells. But even people who make a career out of figuring out which product will sell to the most people - struggle with it. They have all sorts of formulas and tests to figure it out.
Neilsen ratings - which we all rage against at times - are the tv shows way of seeing if people are watching. But not the only indicator - the others are mainstream and online magazine critical reviews, fan posting boards such as the Bronze Beta, emails received, product purchases, convention attendance...etc. So yes, fans have an effect on tv shows they watch - b/c if it weren't for fans - the tv show wouldn't exist. At the same time - as Whedon states in a recent interview it's awfully hard to create art by consensus. Even if he wanted to do it - I doubt he could. Because even among the die-hard fans there are break-downs in taste. So they do it a little - but not completely. They can't.

Okay I think I'm starting to ramble off topic...;-) At any rate, it is interesting how passionately we'll disagree over episodes or characters we love. Almost as if they are our children, our creations. Which for the real creator - must be a joy to watch at times - since it means they succeeded - they connected to someone through their art. At the same time it can be a highly annoying experience as discussed by Stephen King in his book Misery - where a romance novelist gets into an accident, is nursed and then tortured by an obsessed fan of his books. A fan who has taken the novelist's decision to kill her favorite character and stop writing the books as a personal affront.
In a way...Misery was Kings way of metanarrating on his own increasingly frustrating experience with fans of his works.
Just as Storyteller may be in a way Joss Whedon's. As a creator dependent on peoples interest in their works to share and make a living off those works - Whedon and King are living with a double-edged sword. They want the freedom to create and grow and do whatever they please, yet at the same time? They are dependent on outsiders, people they never meet, may not even like, being interested enough in their work - to purchase it, to watch and read it. And that dependency is akin to running a race with crutches. OR an obstacle course. But within all that - there is the pleasure of the moments when what the creator wants to say, what the creator loves magically hits his audience or reader just as he/she intended it to. That the two grok. And those moments while very rare - are magical and make the whole process worth it. They happen for actors when they do a play and the audience goes so quiet you can hear a pin-drop because of their enraptured interest. For tv show writers and creators - when fans thank them and write things stating exactly what was in the creators head or when the show seems to take a life of its own outside of the creator and become celebrated. It''s also why awards often mean so much to the creative community - they can sometimes act as evidence that someone grokked you.

I think Joss Whedon had moments like this for The Body - with the mail he received from viewers thanking him, OMWF - for the reception he got for the CD and the Saturn Award,
and Hush - for the emmy nomination and the reviews.

And we the fans who enjoy these works - also have magical moments - when someone else responds to an episode the same way we did. They list an episode we loved as their favorite. Or they state the reasons they hated something and they are the same as ours. And for an instant we feel validated in some silly little way. Which I think one of the many reasons we share these things. To get that grokking moment. That moment of connection. As surreal as it may be.

My favorite seasons are 2,5,6. I found all three very rich and dark and ambitious.

My favorite episodes change on a daily basis depending on my mood.

My two favorite shows on all of television are Btvs and Ats. They are the only shows outside of MASH that I have ever critically analyzed or written about or re-watched with a critical eye. Btvs is the only TV show that changed my life, which is something that continues to bewilder and amaze me. The only thing that amazes me more is the online experience - this odd communication process where we connect but don't connect through words posted on a computer screen. Raging and celebrating with each other even though we come from divergent backgrounds, experiences, environments, etc. Amazing.

Thanks for indulging the ramble. Hope not too off-topic.

SK

[> [> [> See my response below: "Why I chose..." -- lost_bracelet, 16:24:54 05/15/03 Thu

Thanks for your long and thoughtful reply.

The reason I like what I do tends to come from my aesthetic appreciation of good writing, uniqueness, humor, and irony. But other episodes I appreciate because of my own life experiences. Such episodes are like mythic versions of what I've experienced or witnessed. Please refer to my message below, "Why I chose...", for specifics.

I never really got into M*A*S*H myself because I was too young when it first aired. But other shows I've loved as much as this one include Northern Exposure (I've never seen a single bad episode), some of the Star Trek series (especially The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine), Dead Zone, and Queer As Folk.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.

[> [> [> A possible clarification -- skyMatrix, 19:00:26 05/15/03 Thu

I thought Joss didn't say that it's hard to do art by consensus, so much as he said it would be undesirable to do so. I don't know which interview that was for sure, but I think that's what he said. If I'm correct, than I full agree. I happened to be checking out the infamous jumptheshark.com website last night, and some really old responses claimed the show jumped when Angel lost his soul! I don't imagine I'll offend anyone here when I say that I'm glad Joss didn't tailor the show to those viewers! Yikes.

[> [> Why I chose... -- lost_bracelet, 16:17:46 05/15/03 Thu

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I don't know why "Anne" or some of the others I mentioned have been maligned. I didn't even know they were maligned.

I chose "Anne" because of my own life experiences. I've been working since I was 10 years old. I've had many jobs in my teens and 20s that I hated but had to have. I felt forced into them. I felt that "Anne" was a great commentary on how involuntary work (driven by the Masters of Hell, or just mere economics) literally steals people's youths and lives. In my opinion, it was one of the most disturbing -- but true to life -- episodes of Buffy ever.

"Wrecked" reminded me of how I felt the morning after my first all-night LSD trip. ("I'm never going to do that again!")

"Gone" was funny and creative, and reminded me of when I first realized that I didn't actually want to be dead. "Beer Bad" was just funny and silly.

I didn't like "Triangle" because I thought the plot, dialog, and direction were all really bad and stupid. I know it was supposed to be funny, but I thought it just came off as a sophomoric attempt at humor and ironic melodrama. It just didn't work for me.

Thanks again for your reply.

[> Re: Buffy: Favorite seasons? Favorite episodes? Plus Favorite Quotes... -- Mystery, 07:13:30 05/15/03 Thu

My all-time favorite episodes:

1. The Body
2. Normal Again
3. Hush

My Favorite season:

1. Season 3
2. Season 2
3. Season 5

Favorite Episodes by Season:

Season 1:
1. Nightmares
2. Prophecy Girl
3. Invisible Girl

Season 2:
1. Becoming 1 & 2
2. I Only Have Eyes For You
3. School Hard
Honorable Mentions: Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered; Killed By Death

Season 3:
1. Doopelgangland (mmmmm..VampWillow)
2. Earshot
3. Band Candy
Honorable Mentions: All the other episodes...Did I tell you Season 3 was my favorite?

Season 4:
1. HUSH
2. Restless
3. Beer Bad
Honorable Mentions: Something Blue; Primeval

Season 5:
1. THE BODY
2. Checkpoint
3. Triangle
Honorable Mentions: The Gift; Buffy vs. Dracula

Season 6:
1. NORMAL AGAIN
2. Once More With Feeling
3. Tabula Rasa
Honorable Mentions: Hell's Bells; Villians

Season 7: (thus far)
1. Selfless
2. Storyteller
3. Potential
Honorable Mentions: Lies My Parents Told Me; Showtime

Favorite Arc: Angelus; Glory

Favorite Scoobies
1. Anya
2. Tara
3. Oz

Favorite Recurring Characters
1. CLEM
2. Joyce
3. Faith
4. Andrew

Favorite Bad Guys:
1. SWEET
2. The Gentlemen
3. Mr Trick

Favorite Quotes:

ANDREW: "But I'm reformed! I'm like Vegeta on Dragonball Z. I used to be a pure Saiyan and now I fight on the side of Goku."

ANYA: "His physical presence has a penis!"
WILLOW: "I can work around it!"

WILLOW: "Oh, man! Now I've gotta start all over. Hecate hates that."

PHILIP: "So, you have no special skills, or powers, or knowledge that you bring to the mix. Neither of you."
ANYA: "Just enthusiasm for killing the demons. Go deadness for the demons."

ANYA: "(desperate) But I don't understand! (crying) I don't understand how this all happens. How we go through this. I mean, I knew her, and then she's, (sniffling) there's just a body, and I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore. It's stupid. It's mortal and stupid. (still teary) And, and Xander's crying and not talking, and, and I was having fruit punch, and I thought, well, Joyce will never have any more fruit punch ever, and she'll never have eggs, or yawn or brush her hair, not ever, and no one will explain to me why."

Cordelia: "Listen up, needle-brain. Buffy and I have taken out four of your cronies, not to mention your girlfriend."
Lyle: "WIFE!"
Cordelia: "Whatever. The point is, I haven't even broken a sweat. See, in the end, Buffy's just the runner-up. *I'm* the Queen. You get me mad, (gets in his face and glares at him) what do you think I'm gonna do to you?"
(Lyle scampers off)

Whistler: Bottom line is, even if you see 'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments. No one asks for their life to change, not really. But it does. So what are we, helpless? Puppets? No. The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are."

Giles: "I made up my mind first! I'm older and wiser than you, and just... just do what you're told for once! Alright?"

Xander: "I like chocolate. There is no bad here."

BUFFY: "Sure. We can work out after school. You know, if you're not too busy having sex with my MOTHER!" (Giles walks into a tree. *THUD*)

SPIKE: "'Made with care for Randy.' (looks at Giles angrily) Randy Giles? Why not just call me 'Horny Giles,' or 'Desperate for a Shag Giles'? I knew there was a reason I hated you!"

GILES: Um, son. (Spike stops) Come here. Um, please.
SPIKE: Um...
GILES: Yes, um...
(Spike goes over to Giles and they hug awkwardly, then Spike pushes Giles away.)
SPIKE: Right.
GILES: Good, then.

SPIKE: I must be a noble vampire. (Buffy looks dubious) A good guy. On a mission of redemption. I help the hopeless. (chuckles) I'm a vampire with a soul.
BUFFY: (frowning) A vampire with a soul? (beat) Oh my god, how lame is that?

BUFFYBOT: Anya! How is your money?
ANYA: (laughs in surprise) Fine. Thank you for asking. (smiles at Xander)

BUFFYBOT: Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and he's bloody stupid.

BUFFYBOT: You're my best friend.
WILLOW: Yeah. Again, I ... really am, but...
BUFFYBOT: You're recently gay.
WILLOW: Um...

XANDER: No one is judging you. It's understandable. Spike is strong and mysterious and sort of compact but well-muscled.
BUFFY: (firmly) I am not having sex with Spike! But I'm starting to think that you might be.

BUFFYBOT: Say, look at you. You look just like me! We're very pretty.

BUFFY: Oh, give me a break! This is all wrong. See, first you would get the big guy, with a flying kick. Then you would take out all the little ones, bam, ba- see, now with the flying kick. (scornfully) From a dead stop! What's powering it, raw enthusiasm?
RILEY: Hey Buff, maybe you oughta leave the work behind sometimes. You're not always on slayer duty, you know?
BUFFY: It would drive you crazy if we were watching an army movie and they were all saluting backwards and ... invading all willy-nilly.

BUFFY: (grinning) He ran away, huh?
GILES: Um, sort of more ... uh ... turned and swept out majestically, I suppose. He said I didn't concern him.

ANYA: (turning to the others) Well, maybe we shouldn't do this reintegration thing right away. See, I can take the boys home, and ... we can all have sex together, and ... you know, just slap 'em back together in the morning.

GILES: In all fairness, we don't really know about the slithered part.
ANYA: Oh, no. I'm sure it frisked about like a fluffy lamb.

ANYA: Oh, and you know what else is unAmerican? French people.
WILLOW: You don't say.
ANYA: From what I hear, they don't tip. Now, French old people? That's *really* the bottom of the barrel, you know?

There are so many more...But I don't want to make this entry too long...:-D

[> [> Re: Buffy: Favorite seasons? Favorite episodes? Plus Favorite Quotes... -- Rina, 08:30:54 05/15/03 Thu

My all-time favorite episodes:

1. Fool For Love
2. The Gift
3. Lies My Parents Told Me

My Favorite season:

1. Season 5
2. Season 7
3. Season 3

Favorite Episodes by Season:

Season 1:
1. Prophecy Girl
2. Nightmares
3. Harvest

Season 2:
1. Passion
2. School Hard
3. I Only Have Eyes For You
Honorable Mentions: Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered

Season 3:
1. Lovers Walk
2. Dooplegangland
3. Helpless
Honorable Mentions: Revelations

Season 4:
1. Initiative
2. Something Blue
3. HUSH
Honorable Mentions: Primeval

Season 5:
1. Fool For Love
2. The Gift
3. Intervention
Honorable Mentions: Into the Woods, Crush, Blood Ties

Season 6:
1. Tabula Rosa
2. Older and Far Away
3. Afterlife
Honorable Mentions: Hell's Bells, Villains

Season 7: (thus far)
1. Lies My Parents Told Me
2. Sleeper
3. First Date
Honorable Mentions: Never Leave Me, Selfless, Get It Done

Favorite Arcs:
1. Glory
2. The Mayor
3. The First Evil

Favorite Scoobies
1. Willow
2. Tara
3. Xander

Favorite Recurring Characters
1. Andrew
2. Mr. Sweet
3. Faith

Favorite Bad Guys:
1. Glory
2. Mr. Sweet
3. Drusilla

Favorite Quotes:

1. SPIKE: "I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it."

2. BUFFY: What are you doing here? Five words or less.
SPIKE: Out. For. A. Walk. ...Bitch.

3. WILLOW: Buffy, there is something seriously wrong here! Okay, yeah, you've been with a vampire before, but Angel had a soul.

BUFFYBOT: Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and he's bloody stupid.

4. ANGEL: I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own.

BUFFY: That's beautiful. Or taken literally, incredibly gross.

ANGEL: I was just thinking that, too.

5. SPIKE: "Oh, listen to Mary Poppins. He's got his crust all stiff and upper with that nancy-boy accent. You Englishmen are always so..." He breaks off. "Bloody hell. Sodding. Blimey. Shagging. Knickers. Bollocks. Oh, God! I'm . . . English."

6. XANDER: "Damn it! You know what? I'm sick of this crap. I'm sick of being the guy who eats insects and gets the funny syphilis. As of this moment, it's over. I'm finished being everybody's butt monkey!"

[> [> [> Re: Buffy: Favorite seasons? Favorite episodes? Plus Favorite Quotes... -- Mystery, 09:43:36 05/15/03 Thu

Buffy: Check. No more butt-monkey.

Oh yeah, I forgot one...

Xander: Can we come rocking back to the part about me and my new syphillis?
Anya: It will make you go blind and mad, but it won't kill you. The Small Pox will.

hehe.

[> Rather than rate seasons, eps for the umpteenth time... -- CW, 08:29:31 05/15/03 Thu

I'll grade the plot lines

Season 1
The Master - D, Hackneyed and corny
The Scoobies are doomed to bad relationships - A, really showed what a lot of people experience.

Season 2
Dru-Spike-Angel - A, how many times have villains had this much personality?
Buffy-Angel - A, like 'em or not they were great together and fighting each other.
Willow-Oz - B, points off for Oz being a werewolf, making the difficult relationship idea a little too much like Buffy's.
Xander-Cordelia - C, not at all bad, but the standard set here is very high!

Season 3
The Mayor - A - Have to say this is as much about Harry Groener's portrayal as the quality of his lines.
Buffy and Faith - A
Buffy and Angel - B-, a little too repetitive for top grades.

Season 4
College life - B, Even Joss had trouble with making this top notch
The initiate and Maggie - D, bad acting, over acting, and bad scripts. Ahem
Adam - F, ME never did figure out what to do with this guy once they turned him loose.
Buffy and Riley - C-, I think others would have appreciated this more if Buffy and Angel hadn't been so dazzling. B/R really was a sweet story to begin with. Unforetunately, Riley the intiative guy and Buffy didn't mix at all well, and Mark Blucas just couldn't make tortured guy act work.

(Despite the low grades season 4 is one of my favorites.)

Season 5
Buffy and Riley - F, once it was clear Riley and Buffy were going to break up this was just torture to watch. I give it a failing grade because of the vamp prostitution business. Buffy and Riley were doomed without it, and it was just intorduced to give something for Buffy to hold against Riley when the breakup happened.

Buffy's Mom - A, a first rate complication in Buffy's life.

Glory - C, She's not much better than the Master was as far as originality, but it was done with some style and flare.

Dawn - C, Given I'd probably give such a character introduction a failure on most other shows, this is a great achievement for ME. If Dawn had turned out to be more central to the story in the last two years I might give it a B. I like Dawn, but the whole plot with her being Buffy's sister wasn't a great idea. Again its a feather in ME's cap it work as well as it did.

Season 6
Buffy's mental and emotional state - D, A lot of people loved this plot, but I don't think it really added anything to the understanding for people like me who've never had that kind of depression for very long. Don't know what they could have done to make it better. Kept wanting to kick Buffy in the ass and tell her to get over herself, and that's not what I should have gotten from a protayal of this very serious problem.

Buffy and Spike - B, I like the bad parts of their relationship better now that I've seen most of season 7. The attempted rape scene was painful to watch, but it's the thing that really makes Spikes desire to make himself a better person ring true. He really did start hating what he was.

The Buffoons/Geek Trio - B, Showed that just playing around with bad things both can have deeper roots in some people, and can have consequences those who are truly playing at it can't imagine.

Willow the big bad - D, I think most of our original positive reaction to AH's performance was our sympathy with the Willow we've known. Also I've decided VampWillow only works because we know Willow so well. AH really isn't that good at playing villains. I think Xander might have been a better victim for the drug metaphor.

Season 7 - incomplete!

[> [> Wow! Concur on (almost everything) -- dream, 13:37:25 05/15/03 Thu

The only exceptions would be that I would give an

A- to Buffy's depression - then again, I'm a depressive, and daughter of a depressive mother, and divorced from a manic-depressive man. So what Buffy had goin' on, that I understood. Also, as a former Catholic, the whole idea of being yanked out of heaven gave me shivers. But it was hard to watch, and I can understand why someone would dislike it.

and an

A- to the Dawn thing. As an enormous pop-cultural joke, as a way of understanding what family really is, as a neat bit of mystical fantasy, I liked the story quite a bit.
Unfortunately, I need to add a

D to Dawn in season 6. Klepto, needy child, etc. Bleah.

[> [> Largely agree -- matching mole, 07:51:04 05/16/03 Fri

I would tend to rate the Master somewhat higher than you did - it was ME's first attempt to subvert a cliched supervillain. I will readily admit that it wasn't the stunning success of Harry Groener's Mayor it was at least as good as Glory. So a C.

My major disagreement would be the S2 relationships. Angel turning bad was a great idea and the events of Becoming 2 are simply fantastic. But B/A never grabbed me. I didn't hate it or anything but Xander and Willow's relationships in S2 and S3 were vastly more interesting - generating all kinds of great episodes and insights into all four characters. So I'd give B/A a B (averaging an A for when Angel was bad and a C for when he was good) and Willow/Oz and Xander/Cordelia both As.

I'd also give college life an A. At least for the opening episodes of S4 which I thought were absolutely superb. After that they more or less ignored it.

[> [> [> Re: Largely agree -- CW, 12:18:36 05/16/03 Fri

At least for the opening episodes of S4 which I thought were absolutely superb. After that they more or less ignored it.

That's why I gave it a B, they seemed to run out of things to say pretty fast. I meant to say that this is fairly typical of shows about college students. They often quickly and completely switch to talking about who is dating whom or get very preachy. It's a shame TV doesn't seem to be able to convey what an exciting time of life it can be.

[> Re: Buffy: Favorite seasons? Favorite episodes? -- JCC, 07:54:45 05/16/03 Fri

Seasons:
3(favorite)
2
5
6
1
4
7(least)

Episodes:
S2:
B,B & B
Passion
Becoming 1/2 (probably my 4 all-time favorites)

S3:
Band Candy
The Wish
Enemies
Consequences
Grad Day 1/2

S4:
Hush
Primeval
Restless

S5:
The Replacement
Fool for Love
Crush
The Body
Spiral
The Gift

S6:
Bargaining 1/2
OMWF
Tabula Rasa
Two to go/Grave

S7:
Dirty Girls (that's about it so far)

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