May 2003 posts

Wiccans? -- Rina, 10:47:30 05/15/03 Thu

In various episodes, I've heard other BtVS characters call Willow and Tara, Wiccans. Why? Because they're witches. And because of this, I finally realized that BTVS'S portrayal of witches aren't any more accurate than those portrayed on the WB's CHARMED. I mean, how can Willow be Wiccan, when she clearly stated in Season 5 that she was Jewish?

[> Wicca isn't a religion? She's Jewish because her mom is? -- WickedBuffy, 11:34:10 05/15/03 Thu

[> Also, aren't Jews more like a racial/cultural group than just a religion? -- Vash the Stampede, 13:11:41 05/15/03 Thu

This has often confused me; maybe a Jewish member of the board can help me out here. When I say I am a Christian, its refering more to my faith/religion, rather than my cultural heritage, right? When a person says they are Jewish, that not only refers to their religion, but also their cultural heritage. That is why the Star of David often doesn't work against vampires in vampire stories; its a cultural symbol rather than a religious one.

So, faith wise, Willow is Wiccan. Cultural wise, she is Jewish.

Right?

[> [> There's also the fact that, according to Jewish law... -- Rob, 13:20:21 05/15/03 Thu

...if you're born Jewish, you will always be Jewish no matter how you live your life. Any child born to a Jewish mother is, by Jewish law, Jewish, whether the father is Jewish, Christian, Hindu, etc. A child born to a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother is not Jewish, and not considered half-Jewish (a concept that doesn't exist in Jewish law). Unless he or she is raised to be Jewish, and then he or she is just Jewish, not half.

Rob

[> [> [> Wow. I wonder why your not considered Jewish if your mom wasn't Jewish -- Vash the Stampede, 14:00:48 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Why you're not considered Jewish if your mom isn't Jewish... -- The Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 14:47:45 05/15/03 Thu

Because the ancient Hebrews figured that it was easier to tell what woman had given birth to a child rather than what man had sired that child. The biological father, after all, could be a thousand miles away when the child was born. The biological mother, on the other hand, had to be present when the child was being born. Therefore, one-half of the child's heritage could be positively determined, even if the other half was unknown or questionable.

[> [> [> [> [> Ya beat me to the posting! -- Rob (who was confused by Rhys-Michael at chat!), 14:52:46 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Also, aren't Jews more like a racial/cultural group than just a religion? -- sdev, 15:19:17 05/15/03 Thu

Since you can convert to Judaism it is not a race. There are many black, Indian and Asian as well as white Jews.

Some people are born into the religion thru their mothers and others convert. Reformed Jews (a different sect) believe the fathers religion counts too. According to Jewish beliefs, if you are born into Judaism you are obligated to adhere to its rules. If you convert you have chosen to obey the rules.

The Jewish star is only a cultural symbol (it says I am Jewish) and their is no obligation involved. I'm not sure that the cross is any different.

[> [> A) Willow is not "Wiccan" no matter what ME says. -- Briar Rose, 17:16:15 05/15/03 Thu

B) Witchcraft is not actually a "religion" it is a term used as a conglomerate word for many religions and belief systems.

C) Tara appeared to be a Wiccan, but I couldn't even tell you if she was because I never saw them show her personal stuff enough to convince me. However, she talked the Wiccan Rede enough for me to buy it, even if she didn't act on it.

D) You can be a witch and any other religion you wanna be, but not a "Wiccan" because Wicca IS a religion unto itself.

E) Witch is a self defined term.

F) ME don't know their definitions and have used them incorrectly from day one, just as the Charmed writers do.

[> Re: Wiccans? -- Dochawk, 16:24:15 05/15/03 Thu

If this thread is still alive on Sunday, I will write a long response to your question, but hopefully anom will write one, since she is extremely erudite on the subject.

Wicca may be a religion, but we have never seen Willow practice it. she calls on mystical powers to help her with her magic, but I have never seen her do any rites or rituals that didn't have to do with helping her powers. Clearly she believes that there are more than one God, but whether she still believes in monotheism we don't know. We do know that she still practices traditions associated with Judiasm. Earlier in Season 7 (I can't remember the episode), Willow is seen placing rocks on Tara's grave, which is a Jewish traditiion. And to answer some of the above posts, you can renounce your Judiasm and therefore are no longer Jewish in many eyes (which is not the same as converting or just saying you are another religion, there is a ceremony involved), but yes Judaism does run through matriachal lineage, which is perfect for a show that supports the power of women.

[> [> Another reason why Judaism is sometimes lumped with pan-Paganism, BTW: Matriarchy -- Briar Rose, 17:22:51 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> The rocks on the grave thing? Also Pagan... -- O'Cailleagh, 18:29:29 05/15/03 Thu

As in Ancient Pagan! But Willow could've been doing it for either, I suppose, maybe even both. I imagine the symbolism is the same...I didn't actually know it was a Jewish thing too...
But, to be on topic for once, Willow-so not Wiccan.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> Re: Wicca=cool -- DEN, 20:22:04 05/15/03 Thu

IMO, one reason ME uses "wicca" the way it does is that "Wicca" sounds cool and exotic. "Witch," to borrow a Willow linw, merely evokes warts and pointed hats. On the other hand it also seems to me that in recent seasons "witch" is used as a descriptive far more frequently, eg by Willow in her crossover to AtS.

[> [> [> [> It would be nice of the stereotypes would fall away. -- WickedBuffy, 20:36:26 05/15/03 Thu

Lonely? Bereft in a sea of AtS reruns? Wander no more - Behind the Scenes at ATPo .... -- LittleBit, Random and LadyStarlight, 12:23:01 05/15/03 Thu

...is back!

Yes, that's right, another entry already! See how hard we work to keep you guys entertained during the off season?

[> LMAO! -- Arethusa, 12:50:31 05/15/03 Thu

I want that Lornebot. He can bring me Seabreezes and serenade me with OMWF tunes. Plus, he babysits!

Did Nekkid!Spikebot deface his own plinth? (He just can't stand rejection.) And, er, which part of him is standing at attention?

[> Hey! Am I being reduced to a running gag? ...........Cool!! -- Rob, 12:53:16 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Reduced, upgraded, it's all good, heh. -- Random, 15:39:53 05/15/03 Thu

[> Spike *panties*.. (no expression made out of punctuation seems to fit) -- MsGiles, 13:49:04 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> So much of my Xmas shopping has just been taken care of! Thanks guys! -- ponygirl, still giggling, 16:25:26 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> I bought them for a friend, they were an especially good fit under LPoE (TM) -- Dead Soul, 19:46:04 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Not quite the same as a trapeze, but quite a good gift ;-) -- LittleBit, 21:39:26 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Trapeze nothing, a set of parallel bars is the way to go -- Random, 07:03:56 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Though the uneven bars are good for more advanced stuff -- Random, 08:19:44 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Then, of course, there's always the pommel horse -- LittleBit, 08:26:26 05/16/03 Fri

Favorite Buffy/Angel moments (spoiler End of Days) -- lunasea, 13:17:29 05/15/03 Thu

I couldn't just do 10. I had to cut out the standard moments to even limit it to 20

I could break this down into "Why they should be together" moments or "funny" ones or "heart breaking" or "great foreshadowing" or any number of sub-lists. I am going to try and hit on the various things that just stick in my head when I think of Buffy/Angel.

There are the standard ones: the dance in "Prom" or making love in "Surprise" (shown in "Innocence") or the perfect day in "I Will Remember You" or giving her the cross in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" or the ring in "Surprise" or pulling her out of the water in "Prophecy Girl" or feeding off her in that erotic scene in "Graduation Day" or seeing her called in "Becoming" or the kiss from "Angel."

20. "Gosh, I was hoping we could get back together. What do you think? Do we have a shot? Alright. We'll fight." (Becoming)

Close with "And you fall for it every single time!" I loved the way that Angelus and Buffy interacted, but I really love Angelus period.

19. "It's not yours anymore, either. Are you going to walk away? " (Pangs)

This is one of my favorite Angel moments, period, but it is more between Angel and Giles than Angel and Buffy. These two related to each other like father-in-law/son-in-law. I like when they work together for Buffy's good. That is why it is on the list, but so far down.

18. "I don't like him." (The Yoko Factor)

So much good stuff in here. The idea of testosterone poisoning makes me laugh every time. So does the way Angel just bursts out "You actually sleep with this guy?" That line is more powerful when you see the reaction when Angel finds this out from Faith. The way it ended was great though. All that tension just evaporates and Angel lets her know that he still loves her without having to say it.

17. "Check out the lust bunnies." (Enemies)

Angel and Buffy see a not-so innocent film and Buffy is worried about Angel getting "worked up." Angel puts her mind at ease in one of their sweetest kisses. Faith's undercutting above just made it perfect.

16. "You're right. I should." (Halloween)

Buffy is feeling insecure about her relationship with Angel and wants him to tell her how interesting she is. He doesn't and instead just kisses her. A man of few words, though seems he says most of them on this list. Angel isn't taciturn in the same way that Oz is. He is more of a tease and full of mischief.

15."Well, I didn't come here to fight. Oh, right, I did." (Some Assembly Required)

Goes with the below line. Angel and Buffy are fighting and the flow here is what kept me coming back for more.

14. "'Danced with' is a pretty loose term. 'Mated with' might be a little closer." (Some Assembly Required)

The show didn't just brush the dance with Xander under the carpet. I loved the tension it brought these two and how ultimately he admits how he feels about it.

13. "You never take me any place new." (Choices)

It was fun seeing them as sort of a couple and talking about their incredibly weird circumstances. I love those few times when they are at complete ease with everything.

12. "Good luck!" (The Harvest)

Buffy and Angel do their verbal sparing and she hits him close to home when she brings up friends, which he was using last time they met. When she leaves, he lets himself feel for just the tiniest moment.

11. "She did it! I'll be damned!" (The Harvest)

The irony of this statement is just too delicious. Because she does it, Angel is ultimately saved.

10. "It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have?" (Passion)

We know that Angelus has been stalking Buffy, even watching her undress, from outside. We see her sleeping peacefully knowing that creepy Angelus is nearby, though we don't know how nearby until we see him lift an errant strand of hair and put it back in place so tenderly. Still gives me chills.

9. "A little upset. Wouldn't you?" (I Will Remember You)

This is one of those moments where being unspoiled really pays off. The way that Buffy finishes Cordy's statement and poor Angel's reaction makes this one of the great Angel/Buffy moments.

8. "Angel, when I look into the future, a-a... all I see is you! All I want is you." (Bad Eggs)and
"Let me worry about the neediness. I can handle it." (Forever) or rather the kisses that follow.

Go Marti!!!!! Moments like this are the reason I love Marti. In the first kiss the scene starts out lustfull and changes into something more tender. In the second kiss, we get the reverse, when a kiss of comfort shows how needy they both really are. I just love how the kisses in their relationship are used. They are punctuations marks, not just eye candy.

7. "That's beautiful. Or taken literally, incredibly gross." (Helpless)

The line that causes her to say this makes me melt every time. "Cause I could see your heart. (gets up) You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own."

What really made it was the way such an incredible sentiment was so severly undercut (go Joss) As melodramatic as Buffy/Angel could be, it was moments like the above line that made it truly great.

6."You can't get into my mind" (Earshot)

This is one of my favorite episodes. Picking out one moment was hard. "Well, we talked, and then he ripped out the heart of a demon and fed it to me, and then we talked some more. " That was another great one. So was "I'm a funny guy." and "I mean, there's no comparison. In two-hundred-forty-three years, I've loved exactly one person. "

This one won for the sheer honesty. Angel didn't beat around the bush and called Buffy on what she was doing. It was nice to see them just working through relationship stuff instead of the curse or their destinies for a change.

5."With Buffy!" (Reptile Boy)

Angel vamps out because he is pissed that someone is messing with Buffy. I admit I like this episode. Actually, I love this episode. The flow is great. It starts off Buffy wanting Angel, but Angel trying to keep her at a distance. Then Buffy does something stupid and Angel realizes he has been stupid. This show is also one of my favorite Willow moments, when she tells Angel and Giles off. I liked seeing jealous Angel. I also liked how Buffy handled this at the end.

4. "Okay, then a regular kid and her cradle robbing, creature-of-the-night boyfriend." (What's My Line)

Poor Angel. "Yeah. I'll never be a kid." Buffy is being Cranky Miss and Angel is trying to comfort her. First he does what the Scoobies should do and doesn't accept "It's nothing" and gets her to talk. Then he takes steps to try and gives her something beyond demons. Even with all that, she is still alone in the mirror.

3. Tai Chi (Revelations)

The single most erotic moment in the show's history and they didn't even kiss.

2. "How about you both bite me" (Fredless)

For those who don't watch Angel, we got a bit more about the Buffy/Angel meeting Season 6 on AtS than we did on AtVS. Cordy and Wesley act out a typical Buffy/Angel meeting so Fred and Gunn could understand a bit more. It is an incredibly funny scene (rivaling the opening scene in "In the Dark" where Spike makes fun of Angel from roof top). Angel walks in on Cordy, as Buffy, telling Wesley, as Angel, to bite her. We hear the above line before we even see Angel. The looks on Cordy and Wesley's faces are priceless.

1. "Well, at least you can tell me you're glad to see me" (End of Days)

I hate when people do countdowns and for some reason all the current stuff ends up at the top since it is what is fresh in people's minds. I thought long and hard where to include this, but it is really number 1 for me. What makes it number one is that neither are showing any reservations. No one is hiding behind anything. They are both up front about their feelings from the minute Angel shows up. That is a dramatic change from anything we have previously seen.

What also puts it as number one was the set up. They aren't just seeing each other and rushing into each others arms. Their independence and mutual respect is first asserted. This isn't "ANGEL IS BACK!!!!" time for smoochies. They aren't hoping immediately back into bed. This is something much deeper and tender than that. Conversation will follow, but rather than hide from their feelings, for once these two are admitting it. I look forward to that conversation.

When he said "Hey" and hit Caleb, it reminded me of "Angel." "Good dogs don't bite." Interesting that Caleb's name means dog.

[> Five Buffy/Angel moments you missed (or that didn't make the list) -- cjl, 13:57:28 05/15/03 Thu

5. "UH OH, LOOKS BAD FOR OUR HEROINE!" (Killed By Death) - I think I enjoyed Angelus/Buffy interaction as much if not more than Angel/Buffy interaction. The teaser in KBD is an amazing sequence: not only does Angelus up his "jerkiness" quotient by lumping a flu-ridden Buffy in with the "woman in peril" cliche, he gets his butt kicked by the Scoobs, who just want him to shut the hell up. A vastly underappreciated scene.

4. "Lover's Walk." Sister William T. Bloody Explains it All. They don't say anything. They don't have to.

3. DON'T THEY KNOW IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD? ("The Zeppo"). Another marvelous self-parody (although I think the Cordy/Wes mini-drama in "Fredless" tops it). It works as both the Xander-eye view of the B/A melodrama and it summarizes everything we both love and hate ourselves for loving about the whole gothic "doomed romance" plotline.

2. "Sanctuary." Angel's declaration of independence, and the proof positive he could stand on his own. When AtS started up, we all knew the ultimate test for Angel's effectiveness as a solo operative would be if he could face down Buffy when it really mattered. He could--ripped them both up, but he could.

1. Buffy gives Angelus a swift kick in the...leather pants ("Innocence"). Ahhhh...sweet satisfaction.

[> [> Why I love Angel coming back, even briefly. -- HonorH, 14:09:37 05/15/03 Thu

Yes, I was a huge B/A fan. Never really stopped being one. I accepted all the other relationships and enjoyed them, and I was able to let B/A go, but still, I always thought there was something magical about the two of them. Best of all was the way the shows have treated the relationship. In latter years, they've managed to show that 1) it wasn't just a teenage (or old-guy) crush, but real love; 2) that they can let each other go, move on with their lives, and continue to see each other without bitterness and with affection; and 3) that there will always be something special between them, even if it's only memories.

Buffy and Angel have been important in forming each other. She brought him back into the world, taught him he could love and be loved, no matter what he'd done in the past. He was her first love, her first heartbreak, part of the fire she went through in her journey as the Slayer. Their relationship has shaped both of them into what they are now. So I think it's important that as BtVS winds down, we see them together one last time.

[> [> [> Perfectly said HonorH!! -- Kate, 15:09:21 05/15/03 Thu

That's how I feel about Buffy and Angel too. There will always be something special and magical between them. And even though I'm okay with each moving on and I sometimes even cheer for the new love interests brought into each characters' lives, my heart still sighs and swoons anytime these two characters are on screen together.

They *were* important in forming each other, as you say, and this influence in each other's lives helped to shape the persons Buffy and Angel grew into - the good and the bad. The significance of this relationship on their lives cannot be overlooked, whether you are/were a B/A shipper or not and whether not they are ever able to be together again. These two will always be connected.

[> [> [> Re: Why I love Angel coming back, even briefly. -- Dochawk, 16:36:48 05/15/03 Thu

Tim Minear said (can't tell you where, but Ruf posted this on her list yesterday) that Buffy/angel had a Mythic love and I think that describes it perfectly (and Buffy/Spike have an Arthurian love?).

[> [> [> Very much agree, HH -- Scroll, 20:33:33 05/15/03 Thu

While I don't expect B/A to actually work out any time soon, I always get a little misty-eyed at the two of them together on screen. There's just something that clicks when they're in the same room, like everything is falling into place.

The B/A relationship was the defining relationship for both of them, and each helped the other to grow up, travel that rite of passage, and were waiting on the other side to welcome them home.

Er, yeah, that was sappy. But Buffy and Angel always stirs up the romantic in me.

[> [> Re: Five Buffy/Angel moments you missed (or that didn't make the list) -- lunasea, 16:21:55 05/15/03 Thu

Actually, I did forget KBD. I wanted to include one great Angelus/Buffy moment and the ones that stuck out what the chills of "Passion" and the manipulation of "Becoming." This one was great, if for no other reason than Angel was on top of her and had her pinned down. Another favorite was "Enemies" with faux Angelus "Morning, sleepyhead. You know what I just can't believe? All of our time together and we never tried chains. Well, can't dwell on the past, especially with the future we have ahead." I have to admit that I love the sexual nature of Angelus. I was in heaven this season. Someone should do an Angelus list.

"Lover's Walk" was more of a Spike moment. I will leave that list for someone else. My favorite Spike moment (also Angel moment, Spike/Dru moment. Spike/Angel moment, sexy moment and just moment period) was IOHEFY when Angel takes things at home in hand. Even this week doesn't top that in cruelty to Spike. Nothing Buffy ever did came close.

I left "The Zeppo" off on purpose. I was trying to limit it to 20. It was a great moment, but there are so many to choose from. Same thing with "Innocence."

From Sanctuary my favorite Angel/Buffy moment didn't even have Buffy in the room. "Faith, you and I never actually..." My heart so went out to him. It makes what he says about Riley that much more biting. It was great to see him stand up to Buffy though.

Thanks for the additions

[> Good choices -- Tchaikovsky, 14:02:08 05/15/03 Thu

And thanks for bringing up 'Fredless', it made me giggle all over again. That is a beautiful scene from Mere Smith.

TCH

[> I have a couple -- ponygirl, 16:21:54 05/15/03 Thu

"I'm a funny guy," delivered with intense seriousness. Proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that brood boy has a sense of humour.

"Close your eyes." What more needs to be said? For me it comes second only to "Mom? Mom? Mommy?" for most wrenching BtVS moments ever.

[> [> That "I'm a funny guy" remark was definitely the funniest... -- lost_bracelet, 00:32:03 05/16/03 Fri

...thing on Buffy, maybe ever. I still say it all the time.

[> Nobody said my favorite... -- liz, 01:54:35 05/16/03 Fri

I liked Buffy/Angel OK, and I thought they were for the most part good for each other, while it lasted, although maybe staying together would not have been good in the long run. But I thought that overall they have a deep connection. That said, I never really thought much of their relationship. Not sure why, maybe because I didn't fall in love young, and maybe because I started watching in season 4.

But the one moment where I really loved their relationship was in "Helpless." Where Angel tells her that he loved her before she was the slayer, because he could see her heart. She held it before her for all to see, and he only wanted to hold it close and warm it with his own. Something like that. Oh, Angel, that's beautiful. Then, "Or taken literally, really gross." And he, bemused, says, "I was just thinking the same thing myself.."

It's a great writing moment, but for the same reason it's great for the characters. That they could have such a tender moment and feel so secure in it that they could say that, and that he was thinking the same thing as her. Just that they could hold each other close, express love, and still not take the moment so seriously that they couldn't point out the silliness of what they'd just said.

I really loved their relationship at that moment.

[> [> My favorite B/A moment -- Rina, 10:39:37 05/16/03 Fri

My favorite B/A moment was in "Innocence", when Buffy and Angeleus were battling it out at the mall, before she let him go.

List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- WickedB...from the great to the mundane, what's buggin' you?, 15:18:45 05/15/03 Thu

So many lists, so little time....

But there are some things I don't have to think hard about. Because they bother me. And it looks like they won't be answered in the finale. Some may seem immaterial to others, but I still have a bug in my ear about them.`

What hasn't been answered for you yet? And maybe won't be answered at all?

Anything from a casting decision ::koffdawnkoff:: to a continuity blip to a plot set-up left hanging ::kofftmmisskittykoff:: to a character out of character moment to a logistic puzzle ::koffhowmanybathroomsdoesthe Summershomehavekoff:: to a technical aspect of the Buffyverse Joss created that doesn't fit with the rest of what he created.

No question is too big or too little or too weird.

[> Love this topic!! Must go away to think on it first. Hmmmm...unanswered questions? -- Kate, 15:23:55 05/15/03 Thu

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- Rook, 15:28:06 05/15/03 Thu

What about the damn eggs at the end of Teacher's Pet?!?!?!

:( I always wanted to see some more hot praying mantis ladies.

[> Whatever happened to Ethan Rayne? -- Indri, 15:35:41 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> a possible answer... -- tim, 07:48:22 05/16/03 Fri

From Psyche's transcript for "A New Man":

Ethan: Is this gonna go on much longer? I'd rather like to be going.

Buffy: (crossing her arms) And why would I let you go?

Ethan: (pompously) Well, maybe because you have no choice. I'm human, you can't kill me. What's a Slayer going to do to me?

Riley steps up behind him as a couple of tough looking MP's enter the room.

Riley: (as Ethan is cuffed) By the authority of the US military, you're being taken into custody pending a determination of your status. (to MP) Take it from here.

Ethan doesn't look happy as they take him out of the room. Buffy and Giles exchange a very happy look.

Riley: They'll, uh, take Mr. Rayne to a secret detention facility in the Nevada desert.

I always figured he was still there.

--th

[> [> [> Area 51? -- Arethusa, 08:33:36 05/16/03 Fri

I don't think the Initiative would be able to hold onto Rayne for long. They didn't believe in magic, so they probably would not take proper precautions to keep him from using it to escape.

After his escape, he was kidnapped by aliens and taken back to their world, where he taught them to worship chaos and play practical jokes on each other. He is now a high priest, who devotes his time to magic rituals, native intoxicants and compliant alien women.

(Or he would be if Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote BtVS/X-Files fanfic.)

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- lunasea, 15:41:11 05/15/03 Thu

1. Anything dealing with Amends: How did Angel really get back from Hell? Why was the First satisfied when he was going to die? How did that serve his plans the same way as if he had killed Buffy? Why was Buffy in his dreams?

2. Did Oz ever find a cure? Is Willow stupid enough to choose anyone else over a fully cured Oz?

3. Restless: A final interpretation of what the heck those dreams meant would be nice.

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- Arethusa, 15:43:08 05/15/03 Thu

1. What happened to Ethan Rayne?

2. Exactly what happened when the last demon left and the first vampire was created?

3. Why do both Buffy and Dawn have sunflower posters in their rooms?

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- KdS, 16:23:44 05/15/03 Thu

Is it possible for werewolves to learn to keep their intelligence and conscience in wolf form?

What was Maggie Walsh's actual plan for Adam and Riley before Adam killed her?

Who created the Key and why?

[> My 15 Top Questions (can't limit it to three) -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 16:31:58 05/15/03 Thu

1) Is Dawn still the Key?

She was the Key, but Glory's opening of the doors to the hell dimension was supposed to be a one time only thing. So is Dawn a Key with no door to open, or did she lose all Key qualities after the events of "The Gift" and become fully human?

***

2) Where does Buffy get the money to support herself, her sister, her friends, her Watcher, and some thirty-odd Potentials?

She spent most of Season working in fast-food and retail (not the most lucrative fields in the world), and in Season 7 she got a job at the high school as a counselor...though she never seemed to be at work. She has now been fired from her job--which plays merry havoc with unemployment benefits. No one else, with the exception of the recently hospitalized Xander, has been working. Yet none of the people living in the house seems to be starving, and I note a lot of leather pants and jackets on Buffy, Faith and the Potentials. The lights work. The water works. There appears to be heat. There are references to watching television, even cable shows. Where was Buffy getting the money for food for herself, Dawn, Willow, Xander, Anya, Giles and thirty-odd Potentials, blood for Spike, clothing, electricity, water, heat, and TV prior to the mass exodus from Sunnydale? Inquiring minds want to know!

***

3)Why wasn't there a probate hearing regarding Dawn after Joyce's death?

Hank, as Dawn's sole living parent, would be considered Dawn's de facto guardian. Even if Buffy ended up as her sister's guardian, her father would have to sign papers agreeing to this, and it would be a long process. They needn't have shown it, but a few sentences per show about how the legal case to get Buffy declared her sister's guardian--and how expensive the lawsuit was--would have been logical.

***

4) How did the Scoobies manage to bury Buffy secretly in a cemetery with a gravestone bearing her name and not leave any record of her death?

You can't cremate someone or bury him/her in a graveyard without a formal death certificate. Did Willow download a death certificate form from the Internet and forge it?

***

5) Why was Tara so convinced that she and all the other women in her family were demons?

Yes, her father, and presumably all the males of the family, told her this. But why did she believe that it was more than a story? It's certainly a strange story to tell to keep women under the thumbs of their men; surely the Maclay men could have come up with something less supernatural to control their women.

For that matter, why did her father say that "the women in our family have demon in them"? Did he mean that all the women in the Maclay family were part demon, even the wives? Or did he only mean that the female offspring of the Maclay men and women were demons? And if only the female offspring were demons, how did the Maclay men manage to sire demons without being part demon themselves?

Whether Tara's father's story is true, partly true and partly false, or all false, it just isn't very logical, which makes me wonder why a smart girl like Tara bought it.

***

5) What precisely DID happen to Miss Kitty Fantastico?

***

6) Why didn't Xander or Willow ever talk about Jesse (their alleged best friend) again after he died?

***

7) What is Angel's last name, and precisely how old is he?

We've never heard the former and have gotten a lot of confused info on the latter.

***

8) What is Faith's last name, and is she the daughter of the Mayor?

***

9) What kept the citizens of Sunnydale in denial for so very long? And why are they no longer able to deny the strangeness of this town?

***

10) What were Darla's first and last names as a human?

***

11) Was Drusilla Dru's original name as a human? If not, what were her first and last names?

***

12) Spike was called William as a human...but what was his last name?

***

13) Why haven't those praying mantis lady eggs hatched yet?

***

14) Why did the Order of Taraka, noted for never giving up on a target, cease targeting Buffy?

***

15) Did the monks create phony papers (birth certificate, vaccination records, school records, etc.) for Dawn?

If not, how did she manage to enter school in the fifth season? We know that she did enter school, because Buffy came to Dawn's school to tell Dawn of Joyce's death.

[> [> I can partially answer #3 -- Dochawk, 16:41:13 05/15/03 Thu

in Bargaining Willow tells the Buffybot not to answer the phone because it might be Hank and Dawn wants Hank to think Buffy is doing well so she can continue to live with Willow and Tara. So Hank must have agreed to the arrangement of Dawn living with Buffy. Maybe he was even paying some child support?

[> [> #2: Anya's bank robbery in Him? -- oboemaboe, 16:49:31 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Maybe that's how the Summers Menagerie is being financed? -- LadyStarlight, 18:37:43 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Maybe that's how the Summers Menagerie is being financed? -- graylady, 10:00:55 05/16/03 Fri

Maybe Kennedy has a trust fund and is sharing. She said she lived in houses big enough to have wings. So she must come from money.

[> [> A few answers -- KdS, 17:17:05 05/15/03 Thu

4: My impression was that Buffy wasn't buried in a graveyard, but in an out-of-the-way spot somewhere in the woods, with a gravestone thrown in out of sentiment.

8: Faith's last name was never mentioned on the show. She may just possibly have been the Mayor's actual daughter, but she grew up in New Englans judging from her accent, and the little we know about her mother makes her a very unlikely partner for the respectable and hygiene-obsessed Richard Wilkins.

10: Darla specifically said during her human period in AtS S2 that she couldn't remember her name as a human.

11: Definitely unknown

12: Definitely unknown

15: We know from No Place Like Home that the monks' spell altered people's perception of the physical reality of her room, so presumably they created illusions of official documents as well.

[> [> [> Faith and Wilkins -- Angel, 17:22:23 05/15/03 Thu

I never thought about Faith being the Mayor's actual daughter. I always thought she had an absentee father, thus her lousy relationships with men/boys and the NEED that allowed Wilkins to fill in for her as a reliable father figure. I think that he filled that role more completely than he would have had she been his actual "blood" daughter; but that is certainly a VERY interesting angle to consider.

Just my two cents.

[> [> [> Re: A few answers -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 17:44:17 05/15/03 Thu

Thanks. KdS, but...I know that Darla couldn't remember her name as a human and that Faith's last name was never mentioned on the show. That's why these are questions I would have liked answered.

[> [> #8 I think Faith's last name is Spencer -- Vash the Stampede, 17:20:02 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Faith's Last Name -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 17:54:09 05/15/03 Thu

Here's an article about all of the names that have been used for Faith in fanfic.

From http://panthermoon.com/destiny/faith/name.html

"SPENCER--This is one of the most popular appellations assigned to Faith. It is often mistaken for her given last name by those new to Faithfic. This is often attributed to Dreiser's, "It Starts with Faith," but is in fact older than that. Sasha Chase of Slayer's Pride attributes it to Freelance, who wrote "Faith Spencer: Private Eye," which she then followed with one of her own. Both fics reference Faith being a private eye and refer to the 80's detective show "Spencer: For Hire."

[Note from Rhys: the 80s detective show was spelled "SPENSER: For Hire." Spenser, like Edmund Spenser, the Elizabethan poet who wrote the long allegorical poem "The Faerie Queene."]

"WILKINS--Wilkins is the last name of the Mayor. There are those that speculate that the mayor would have taken care of Faith and used his name to admit her to the hospital. They had a very close relationship and treated each other as father/daughter.

"SUMMERS--This is a split camp. There are some who use similar logic to the Wilkins supporters. If Faith didn't have a name when she went into the hospital, Buffy could have seen that she was taken care of by saying she was her sister? I am not sure about that. Others argue that Faith would see this as an act of submission and would never take Buffy's name. The best reasoning I have heard is from MDK. "It could be something else she could resent and explain why she never brought up her last name. That even that is not just hers."

"WINTERS--This is a popular choice as well. I believe that this was first suggested by Jon. This name is the opposite of Summers as Faith is the antithesis of Buffy. The names are like light to dark, life to death. Faith is the anti-hero, and a polar reflection of Buffy.

"HOLLOWAY---Used by Kris.

"ADAMS--unknown.

"DOBSON--unknown.

"LOCKHEART--unknown.

"NO LAST NAME--This is actually in keeping with canon. Many writer's feel this works as it adds mystery to the character. We don't know something as simple as her full name. This is also the best way to avoid being "Jossed," if he should ever decide that she needs a last name. Besides, it works for Angel (when he isn't Angel Jones), Madonna, Prince, etc. one name... and isn't Faith at least as glamorous as they are?"

***

Personally I wish that Joss would just answer the question of what Faith's last name is in the last show. Make it a throwaway line. Just tell me!

[> [> [> [> I always thought Faith having no last name was pretty funny -- Vickie, 20:41:09 05/15/03 Thu

In "What's My Line?", Kendra admits she has only the one name. Buffy snarks "Can you say stuck in the eighties?"

Later, when Kendra dies, Buffy is faced with yet another new slayer. And this one, also, is a one-named celebrity type.

[> [> [> [> [> Faith, Cher, Roseanne and Fabio -- WickedBuffy, 21:26:36 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> I thought Roseanne's last name was Barr. And then Arnold. -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 21:49:22 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, but everyone knows her as Roseanne. -- lost_bracelet, 00:18:57 05/16/03 Fri

And most people refer to Buffy the Vampire Slayer simply as Buffy.

My theory is that if a celebrity can't create a first-name cachet for themselves (Cher, Roseanne, Ellen, Oprah, whatever), then they have to skip the standard first-name/last-name moniker and go straight to the fancy triplet, like:

Sarah Michelle Gellar
Sarah Jessica Parker
Mary Stuart Masterson

etc.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> (TAFKAPrince) went one up, lost his first name as well -- MsGiles, 02:58:15 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ooOOo don't forget: Larry Curly Joe! -- WickedBuffy j/k, 11:12:05 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Stooges' Last Names -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 01:15:11 05/17/03 Sat

Curly Joe Derita
Larry Fine
Curly Howard
Moe Howard
Shemp Howard
Joe Besser

From http://www.threestooges.com/c3bios.htm

They were far better known by their first names, yes. But they never ceased to use their last names, as Cher and Fabio did, or to stop using their first names (as the artist formerly known as Prince) did.

[> [> [> [> Re: Faith's Last Name -- Mystery, 09:35:00 05/16/03 Fri

I'm from Boston, so I know that "Southie" (where was was living when she rescued the bus full of Baptists while totally nude) is a predominantly Irish neighborhood. Faith has shown a bit of the Irish temperment, the fiestiness and the enjoyment of booze. So in my mind Faith had a good Irish last name like Brennan ("sorrow"), Callaghan ("strife" or "contention"), Campbell ("battle chief"), Hayes ("fire") or even "Wolfe."

Even if I go by my theory that Faith is originally from Dorchester (a part of Boston right between Southie and The Quincy Quarry, the probably site of the cliff Faith used to jump off of but the other kids were scared of), Faith would still probably be Irish.

I think about this stuff a little too much...lol

[> [> [> [> [> Re: OT to Mystery -- Brian, 11:00:58 05/16/03 Fri

Sounds to me like you are a Bostonian. Yes?

[> [> [> [> [> Hey! I've always thought Dorchester, too! -- dream, from Cambridge, 11:42:13 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> #2: the money issue -- lost_bracelet, 17:23:56 05/15/03 Thu

I would say that my biggest question has always been where do they get the money to support their lifestyles: the beautiful, tastefully decorated homes; the fashionable clothes (ever see any of them wear the same outfit twice?); the ability to go to the Bronze or any type of recreational/entertainment place whenever they want; ever-changing hairstyles; new cars; and just the basics (food, utilities, mortgage, etc.) as you've mentioned.

Whenever I bring up this question, my partner answers, "It's a TV show." And, indeed, it is. And this isn't just an issue on Buffy. Most television shows, including sitcoms, have glaring discrepancies between what people do for a living (if they do anything at all), and how much they work (hardly ever, and they're always shown socializing at work), and the lifestyle they're able to maintain. Do all TV characters come from old money and have secret trust funds that they never mention? The only sort of recent TV show I can think of that realistically addressed money issues was Roseanne (another show Joss Whedon was involved with).

But I guess the reason we watch television is because it's a fantasy. The scenarios are fantastical, the lifestyles are fantasies, even the way people look (is everyone in real life thin, toned, young, beautiful, and well-dressed?) isn't reality. So people having inexplicable gobs of time and money and energy is just one more fantasy.

Any other comments on this issue?

[> [> [> Because BtVS had episodes based on the lack of money. -- WickedBuffy, 18:06:17 05/15/03 Thu

I agree that many tv shows have the same answer for the money question - they ignore it.

I know the reason I wonder about it in BtVS is that there was so much emphasis put on money issues at the beginning of Season 6. Some plots were based on it. Leading to Buffys stress, her job at the Doublemeat Palace, frustration with the broken basement pipes, etc.

It was specifically brought up by ME, then suddenly became nonexistant again. Joss's fault we question it! heh

[> [> [> Wasn't always this way -- dream, 11:35:34 05/16/03 Fri

The television shows, esp sitcoms, of the seventies showed people's money problems. Think of All in the Family, One Day at a Time, Alice, Welcome Back Kotter, Good Times, even Laverne and Shirley! The sets were realistic, people talked about money, people were seen working - and not just as lawyers and doctors! Then came the Reagan eighties, and suddenly poverty was passe. The urban settings of most sitcoms became suburban - we had the Cosby Show, Family Ties, Kate and Allie, and so on. The return to urban life with Friends, Ally McBeal, Seinfeld and so on in the nineties did not include a return to a realistic depiction of an average person's apartment, money troubles, etc. Maybe if the recession continues for a long time, the country will stop such intense materialistic fantasizing in their television entertainment - but I'm not holdig my breath.

[> [> [> [> Good points, and good recollection of television history. -- lost_bracelet, 13:36:07 05/16/03 Fri

Maybe that's why I enjoyed the sitcoms of the '70s (even in reruns) and pretty much hated the stupid sitcoms of the '80s. The best thing about '90s television was the rise of sci-fi/fantasy shows like Star Trek, Buffy, etc. In some of these shows, like Star Trek, money problems just weren't relevant.

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks - I pretty much wasted my childhood. -- dream, 12:11:13 05/19/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Join the club. -- lost_bracelet, 16:32:54 05/19/03 Mon

Some of my happiest childhood memories involve Gilligan, Big Bird, the Brady house, Wonder Woman, the Addams mansion, and Samantha Stevens' nose twitching.

[> [> Re: My 15 Top Questions (can't limit it to three) -- Wizard, 22:23:36 05/15/03 Thu

1- I believe that Dawn is still the Key, and that even though Glory used her, she could still be used to open up doorways. This is one of my biggest quibbles about S5- we only got half the story. The Monks guarded the Key for millennia. The Knights hunted the Key for millennia. Gregor said that Glory was placed in Ben when Ben was a newborn. Was Ben immortal in that he couldn't age or get sick? Or was Glory just the latest- and greatest- in a long line of beings hunting the Key, which is why both the Monks and the Knights knew of her? And what exactly is the connection of the Key to the Beast? Did she just happen to stumble upon it and hunted it to the exclusion of all else that might give her a shot at getting home? She was that single-minded. Or was it a by-product of Glory's entrance into our dimension? I don't think we'll ever know.

#2- I think that most of the bank robbery funds went into the Summers house. Although a scene with Anya would have been funny- at first, she freaks out because she's giving money away, then she gets happy because it can't be connected to her now.

#3- Hank's portrayal flip-flopped. At first, he was a warm, caring, concerned father who was busy with work, which affected his relationships with his daughter(s). He should have made an appearance after Joyce's death. Even if they couldn't get Dean Butler, a few lines about his reappearance would have sufficed.

#4- In a fanfic I read- and yes, I know it is automatically OOC- it was revealed that the authorities in Sunnydale aren't nearly as blind as we've been led to believe, they just got into the habit of looking the other way when something out of their authority happened, and that went double for anything that concerned Buffy or her 'known associates.' Yes, I'm getting to the point. This explanation allowed Buffy to be buried without official fuss, because the local PTB (as opposed to the actual PTB on AtS) knew about her. It's not a farfetched explanation, as the bureaucrats and police officers know the truth. The Mayor's infrastructure didn't get blown up with him, after all.

#5- We don't know too much about Tara's family. It's possible that her family was a branch of a clan which tended to intermarry, to keep the 'demonic taint' away from others. It would certainly explain Donny. But if that's the case, then Cousin Beth was almost certainly in the same boat as Tara, and the two would be far better contrasts- the passive-aggressive bitch who bowed to family pressure, opposed to the shy, seemingly-weak-but-really-strong woman who had the courage to become her own person.

#6- As we all know by now, it's been implied that Miss Kitty Fantastico had an accident with a crossbow Dawn left lying around and the accident was fatal. It's possible that the bolt just barely missed the cat, and Willow gave her away when the Summers home got crowded (maybe a Potential is allergic).

#7- I really don't know. What I want to know is- why weren't Jesse, Darla, or Luke around in "The Wish?" It's possible that Angel took at least one of them out, or that VampXander and VampWillow killed some of them, but a line would have been nice, such as either Vamp regretting killing Jesse, or telling Angel that the only reason they don't just torture him to death for killing Jesse is because the Master wants him alive. It's possible that Jesse's death just hurt too much, especially for Xander- Willow had casual friends like Amy, but it was implied that Xander's only real friends were Willow and Jesse. Other than Oz and maybe Riley, Jesse was certainly the only guy friend Xander had during the series, and neither Oz nor Riley were as close to Xander as Jesse. Jesse's death resonated with Xander, though. His 'all-humans-good-all-demons-bad' mentality, which coloured his relationships with Angel and Spike, can only be explained by Jesse's vamping and death- S1 Willow saw a difference, as did S1 Buffy, as did S1 Giles. He sees that the lines aren't as clear for him now, of course- Anya had a lot to do with that.

[> [> [> Re: My 15 Top Questions (can't limit it to three) -- Wizard, 22:48:40 05/15/03 Thu

#8- We haven't found out yet. We only know him as Liam of Galway.

#9- We never did find out Faith's last name. If she took the name of the people close to her, it could be Wilkins, Summers, or even Morgan (after Lilah- saw it in a fanfic once). Or we could just not know her last name. It's an annoying quibble, but a minor one in the scheme of things. And is she the Mayor's daughter? Yes, in all ways but blood. She later rejected his evil- okay, it was after he died- but the two came to love each other as father and daughter. She'd deny it, and she's probably conflicted about it, but she does.

#10- We really don't know. Not everybody in Sunnydale has been directly touched by the demons. I seriously doubt that every single adult ate the Band Candy. The town-wide outbreak of 'laryngitis' was believably explained. It wasn't until S5/S6 that things got ridiculously open- between Glory's portal and Sweet's visit, even the most willfully ignorant citizen knew something was going on. The people of Sunnydale do notice their surroundings, even if they don't like to talk about them. We've seen this in S3, with "Gingerbread" and "The Prom." As to why they're finally booking it, well, I think it's a subconscious thing. For the first time in, well, ever, the Hellmouth is percolating in a big way. Everybody who's not going to fight the fight is leaving. What I really want to know is how Sunnydale maintians the population it does- it must have an incredibly high birthrate, and an equally high influx of people who come there to live, to balance out the mortality rate- and rate of disappearances.

#11- We don't know. She has forgotten, and the Master, who might know, is dead.

#12- I'm not sure. The 'renaming' thing is something that old vamps do, like respecting the no-activity rule of Halloween. Younger one's don't. AFAIK, it is unclear whether Angelus followed or bucked the trend. He's just enough of a rebel to buck the trend, but he's also traditional enough to follow through. He would have done whatever would have caused the most pain.

#13- Again, we don't know. He hasn't said, and neother has anyone else that might know (Dru, Angel, Darla).

#14- One did. It's unclear as to how fast those things mature. In any case, it's entirely possible that Baby!She-Mantis-Beast booked it as soon as it was able, not wanting to mess with a Slayer.

#15- Giles explained this at the beginning of the episode immediately following WML. IIRC, it had to do with the Order calling off a mark if the target can handle all the assassins first sent, which goes to show that even ME isn't perfect all the time. It might have been fun- every once in a while, Buffy is plagued by another assassin, long after Spike himself lost interest in having Buffy killed. It would have made a good show in S5 or even S6- an assassin comes to kill Buffy, Spike tries to call the mark off, finds that he can't, helps kill the assassin, and has a mark placed on him.

#16- We don't know. They could have made an illusion of any documents that couldn't be tweaked to add Dawn to them, and they appeared ready to do so at a moment's notice, which is all they had. So the illusion thing is possible.

[> [> [> [> Your follow-up to #10 -- dream, 05:58:11 05/16/03 Fri

How Sunnydale maintains its population? I'm assuming very, very low prices on houses in a town that seems to be perfectly lovely, except for some ridiculous rumors. A person has too many freaky experiences, puts the house on the market at a very low price, and waits for an out of town buyer. Repeat.

[> [> [> [> Re: My 15 Top Questions (can't limit it to three) -- alwaysafan, 21:26:50 05/19/03 Mon

here is another one. What did the government ever do with that invisable girl from season 1?

[> [> 2 more answers -- anom, 22:42:04 05/15/03 Thu

"13) Why haven't those praying mantis lady eggs hatched yet?"

'Cuz the school got blowed up w/them in it. This would mean they have a pretty long period of development before hatching.

Or maybe they did hatch, & they're still in the larval stage. Or the larvae got blowed up when the school did.

"14) Why did the Order of Taraka, noted for never giving up on a target, cease targeting Buffy?"

Because the client who hired them--Spike--was presumed dead when the church collapsed on him & Drusilla & therefore not going to pay them for fulfilling the contract. Why do the work if they no longer had the expectation of getting paid for it? It was up to Spike to contact them & tell them otherwise, & he didn't. (I'm sure he had other things on his mind.)

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- Kate, 17:22:38 05/15/03 Thu

1. The summer between "The Gift" and "Bargaining": I get that Willow, et al knew they were going to resurrect Buffy so of course they would want to keep her death and all red tape related to that a secret (which is still weird in and of itself, as others have already stated), but what about Giles? His compliance and subsequent leaving so never made sense to me. Why was he okay with pretending Buffy wasn't dead? That leads to, so if he was, how could he leave Dawn like that? I mean sure technically he has no obligation to her, but I just can't see him not taking over her care.

2. Ideas and questions posed and raised in "Restless" as well as understanding that episode completely. Some questions may be answered in the finale, but the one thing I always wanted explored further was Tara (and Dracula's) line: "You think you know. What's to come. Who you are. You have no idea." That line just haunts me because I find it so fascinating. I always wanted more to happen with it. (And maybe it actually did it's just that I can't see that until a rewatch of season 5-7 after all is said and done...???)

3. Where in the world is Hank Summers? It's not the absentee father plotline that bothers me, but that it was left to dangle. Just tell us he doesn't want anything to do with his daughter(s) or he remarried or whatever, but it none of this 'we haven't heard from him in years' stuff.

[> Oh! Why isn't there a third slayer? Buffy died at the end of Season 6. -- lost_bracelet, 17:35:35 05/15/03 Thu

Shouldn't there be yet another slayer to take her place, just as Kendra and Faith had come along earlier? A full-fledged slayer, not a potential.

What's up with that?

[> [> Whoops, I mean Buffy died at the end of Season 5, not 6. (Sorry.) -- lost_bracelet, 17:38:36 05/15/03 Thu

Still, the question remains. Why didn't a third slayer appear at the beginning of Season 6?

[> [> Why there was no third Slayer... -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 18:15:45 05/15/03 Thu

Buffy died--briefly--in "Prophecy Girl." This activated Kendra. When Kendra was killed by Drusilla, this activated Faith.

When Buffy died for a second time in "The Gift," the baton of slayerage, so to speak, had already been passed on to Faith. There was no need for a third slayer to be called. Faith The Vampire Slayer had already been chosen when Kendra died, and Faith was very much alive. She was just in jail. She had turned herself in to the cops for murder in "Sanctuary," the 19th show of Angel's first season (corresponding to Buffy's fourth season), and remained in prison until "Release," in Angel's fourth season (corresponding to Buffy's seventh).

[> [> [> Oh! Good explanation. I'll buy it. -- lost_bracelet, 18:30:07 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Why there was no third Slayer... -- Dochawk, 18:30:24 05/15/03 Thu

I want to answer simply because Joss says so (and he explicitly does say so). His theory was the essence of the slayer passed to Kendra and eventually to Faith (there could have been unknown slayers in between, though they would have had to die quickly, but Kendra to Faith is 7 months and she had to face kakistos in that time), but that that essence was no longer transferable from Buffy. the question this leads to: Why not kill and revive slayers until you have an army of slayers that match the army of Turok-kan?

[> [> [> [> Because that would make too much sense? -- Snarky Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 18:43:44 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Risk -- Wizard, 22:52:32 05/15/03 Thu

The whole 'resusitation' thing was recently discovered, remember. I'm sure someone on the Council suggested it, but the kibosh was put on it until they could discover the full ramifications of having two active Slayers at once.

[> [> [> I always thought Buffys first death was pretty "iffy", anyway. -- WickedBuffy, 20:28:50 05/15/03 Thu

When something like that happens in "real life" it's commonly described as a near death experience - not a truely dead experience.

"Death: 1. The cessation of all vital phenomena without capability of resuscitation, "

But Xander resuscitates her.

I think the SlayerEssence Fairy jumped the gun on that one, when it crowned Kendra as the new Slayer. Imagine its dismay when Buffy coughed up some sewer water and lived.

But, if it hadn't made such a faux pas, we wouldn't have Faith - so, I'm glad it messed up!

[> [> [> [> From the medical point of view... -- Dochawk, 22:13:13 05/15/03 Thu

Your probably right. Xander did totally ineffective CPR and all she probably needed was to get the water out of her mouth/lungs. But since its in the script that she died, we just have to accept that she did.

[> [> [> [> [> What should Xander have done first/instead? -- auroramama, 10:11:11 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> He did the best he could. This is about the Slayer Essence passed along too soon. -- WickedBuffy, 12:40:59 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Just *cough* and insert the Magic Clause anytime something doesn't make sense....;) -- Rufus, 02:04:54 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Rufus? Are you ME's special "Proctologist-on-Call"? -- WickedBuffy };>, 17:31:33 05/19/03 Mon

[> [> Re: Oh! Why isn't there a third slayer? Buffy died at the end of Season 6. -- ANDREA, 21:35:12 05/18/03 Sun

COZ THE SLAYER LINE CONTINUES WITH THE DEATH OF FAITH, SHE IS THE CURRENT SLAYER.AND THE FACT THAT SHE CAME TO SUNNYDALE THINKING SHE WAS "THE ONE ", AND THEN RALIZING THERE WAS A "BETTER" SLAYER OUT THERE IS ONE OF THE MANY REASONS SHE BROKE DOWN AND WENT EVIL...

ANYWAY I'VE ALWYAS WONDER IF DAWN IS STILL THE KEY(EVEN IF SHE CANT OPEN ANY PORTAL), A BALL OF ENERGY, CANT THEY UNSE THS ENERGY TO LIKE EMPOWER OTHERS LIKE BUFFYHERSELF OR THE POTENTIAL...I KNOW IS A STUPID IDEA BUT MAYBE

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- Julie, 17:50:41 05/15/03 Thu

1. Why Xander didn't fess up when people started self-combusting in OMWF, and how he came to terms with causing those deaths (unless breaking the spell reversed them-- if so why was Dawn still dressed like a barbie-princess?)

2. Doc's comments about knowing Spike from somewhere (dominos/brown hair).

3. How Buffy would react to Angel giving back his humanity in early S4, if she were to find out.

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- Cheryl, 20:57:24 05/15/03 Thu

Most of my questions have already been asked by others here, but here are a few more:

What's Amy doing these days? They tease us with one episode and then she just disappears again. Is she good or evil?

Was Spike the "Doctor" Riley was looking for?

How did Spike have electricity in his crypt for his tv and fridge?

What did they do with all the demon bodies they killed over the years? The ones that don't turn into dust. Is there a demon cemetery somewhere?

How do vampires (well, our favorites anyway - Angel, Spike, Dru, Darla, & Harmony) manage to look so good (hair, clothes, etc.) when they can't see their reflections?

[> [> I like the questions about Spike... -- lost_bracelet, 00:04:35 05/16/03 Fri

I always wondered how they had electricity and beautiful furniture in their dusty old crypts. Have they lived so long that they know all about electricity and how to splice into electrical lines and wire up a crypt? (After all, it's not that dangerous for them because they're already dead.) And do they steal all the furniture? Who helps them move it into the crypt? Are there vampire moving companies? Or are they just really, really strong and can do it themselves?

I also wonder how Spike and Angel keep themselves so well-shaven without being able to use mirrors. Good points.

[> [> [> Vamp shaving -- O'Cailleagh, 02:36:39 05/16/03 Fri

I always figured they did it by 'feel'. If they felt any stubble left, just shave there again! And its not like it matters if they cut themselves shaving....

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> [> Re: Vamp shaving -- skyMatrix, 16:54:14 05/16/03 Fri

"Angel, how do you shave?"
Willow in "Reptile Boy"

I think Jane Espenson said at the Succubus Club this is what you call "putting a lampshade on it" so that you can go on to deal with the story. She was referring to the accidental penis monster in "Doublemeat Palace" which Willow later wisecracked about in "Entropy," but I think it's the same deal here. How does he shave? Isn't it funny that we brought it up? Don't think about it too long... Not saying we shouldn't have fun with things like this, but it's not one of things you should expect to have answered (but you knew that right?). ;)

[> [> [> [> [> My theory is that a male vampires hair is a reflection of their mood -- WickedBouffant, 18:59:49 05/16/03 Fri

If they feel scruffy and depressed, facial stubble appears and their hair becomes mussy (see Angel with '70's hair)

Happy and on top of the world, cleanshaven look and perfectly styled hair. (see Spike most the time.)

Romantic and loving - soft, luxious waves. (See Angel in latest episode.)

They don't need mirrors.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Burning Anita Blake question -- mamcu, 09:44:15 05/17/03 Sat

I can almost imagine Spike getting the gel right just by touch, and probably he goes somewhere for color touchups. But what about Jean Claude? He is always so totally perfect. On the other hand, maybe he would quit with the shirts if he could see what they look like.

But the burning question is why ALL guys in ABVH have shoulderlength hair, except for Edward,who's theoretically at least not a sex object. I can see 600-year-old vampires getting out of touch with the current styles, but it doesn't stand to reason that Sidhe in the Ozarks and wererats in St. Louis would all go to the same stylist--or maybe it does.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think some of the strippers were described with short hair. Newsreporter, too. -- WickedBuffy ::I'm gonna recheck, though::, 10:36:21 05/17/03 Sat

A ot of them sure have long hair. Maybe it's like a Samson Complex where they believe long hair symbolizes their strength? ::guessguess good question::

Willie McCoy ...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, at least the sexy ones -- mamcu, 21:03:10 05/17/03 Sat

Or the ones who are supposed to be sexy. I think the strippers are not sexy to AB because they're so weak. But then there's Jason, who is weak but maybe a bit hot too. Let's say the MAIN sexy ones, the protagonist ones, both for the whole series and for each book.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, at least the sexy ones -- WickedBuffy, 22:05:43 05/17/03 Sat

Yes, too true!

You can almost tell how important a character will be by their hairlength.

(And does she get a commission from Nike or something?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The clothes are definitely the weakest part! -- mamcu, 12:41:53 05/18/03 Sun

Not only the shoes, but the color of the stripe on her socks?! Every time.

But have you yet gotten into the Killing Dance? Anita wears something designed by Jean Claude. You can't imagine. Actually Jason wears something fairly strange there too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I JUST read that part today!!! (spoilers Killing Dance/A.Blakeseries) -- WickedBuffy, 21:17:46 05/18/03 Sun

I agree. I'm very bored with Anitas clothes and the descriptions of Jean Claudes. It seems out of place when Anita is suddenly thrust into a perilous situation and the first thing LH describes is what people are wearing.

But the things Jean Claude makes others wear OoOOoO - those are fun to imagine! And the leather strap outfit Anita wore sounded incredible. I couldn't quite picture it, though.

Lately I've been having fun playing casting director in my head - if the book series were made into a movie (or tv show) - who would play who and why.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I JUST read that part today!!! (spoilers Killing Dance/A.Blakeseries) -- mamcu, 12:28:05 05/19/03 Mon

This thread is going to get eaten, so soon I'll start another--maybe after you finish KD--the last part needs discussing I think.

I can imagine some casts! The guy who played Dracula on Buffy could be Jean Claude, or I personally can imagine Daniel Day-Lewis being excellent. I'm horrified to say that Patrick Swayze keeps coming to mind for Richard--Bad, bad thought!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> nonononononononoNO Patrick Swayze! -- WickedHorror =====:O, 17:33:12 05/19/03 Mon

If I had any brain left today I'd come up with at least SOMEBODY better than Swayze....
ummm PeeWee Herman?

see brain... alllllll ...... gone ..... fire... pretty

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OT: Answer to mamcu's burning Anita Blake question (spoilers for Cerulean Sins) -- Tyreseus, 03:40:24 05/19/03 Mon

I just finished the latest installment "Cerulean Sins" and there's a scene in which Anita makes Jean-Claude and Asher look at themselves in the mirror. So in Hamilton's world, they apparently can use mirrors.

Also, Richard cut off all his hair (we're talking buzz cut almost shaved)

[> [> Vamp grooming -- ponygirl, 08:38:47 05/16/03 Fri

I've always assumed that the invention of the Polaroid camera was probably the greatest thing to hit the vamp community ever.

I can just see a 1950s or '40s Slayer puzzling over it to her Watcher:

"I don't get it, vampires used to be so unkempt - now all of a sudden their hair is perfect."

The Watcher then mutters something ducktails and kids today with their crazy hair.

[> [> 1 burning answer -- anom, 09:51:39 05/16/03 Fri

"What did they do with all the demon bodies they killed over the years? The ones that don't turn into dust. Is there a demon cemetery somewhere?"

I think it's in the opening scene of The Zeppo (if someone knows for sure, please confirm or correct this) that the Scoobies discuss burning the bodies of the demons they've just killed, & it's implied that this is their usual method.

[I thought I'd posted this last night--don't know what happened, but I'm glad the thread's still here!)

[> Pet Theory on the No 3rd Slayer and 1 Burning Question -- Haecceity (stopping by now that finals are over:), 21:07:16 05/15/03 Thu

First off--Great topic, WickedAKA;)

Second--Haecceity's Pet Theory of Slayerness
In GID the shadowmen say they created the Slayer by instilling in a girl the HEART and SPIRIT of a demon. What if these are two separate essences contained within one slayer? If so, perhaps Buffy's first "death" released the spirit energy, but she wasn't dead long enough for the heart energy to pass on too. This might explain how she retained her powers but "felt different" when she was revived. It would also go a long way toward explaining how different Buffy is from both Kendra and Faith--they had more of the savage fighting spirit, while her enormous cabability to love has redeemed more than one(formerly)evil thing. Plus, it might be what the Eye of Beljoxa was going on about when it said the Slayer's death caused a weakness the FE could exploit. In this case it wouldn't mean Willow's (read Spirit) resurrection of Buffy, but Xander's (heart). The above could be a total fanwank, but thinking of it this way helps me make sense of the muddle. Plus, it would offer up some neat scenarios for the current situation that has Faith and Buffy working together.

And last, my Number One All-Time Buffy Burning Question:
Who/what was Lurky and how did it have the power to restore souls? I guess, technically that's two questions. Maybe with JM headed to Angel we'll get some answers on that.

---Haecceity

[> [> Unmarked Casting Spoilers for A:TS S5 In above post -- Rook, 22:44:04 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Whoops. Sorry, guys. -- Haecceity, 05:51:17 05/16/03 Fri

I assumed (insert snarky assumption truism here) that since the WB site had announced casting for next season that it was generally known. Guess we have another WKCS going. I apologize to anyone inadvertantly spoiled by my big mouth.

---Haecceity
slinking off in disgrace

[> [> Good to see you back! -- ponygirl (waving hello), 07:24:46 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Good to see you back! -- Haecceity, 08:38:46 05/16/03 Fri

Thanks. I've been staying off the board 'cause I don't get UPN and have to wait for discs, so I didn't want to get spoiled (ironic, huh?). But I went out and splurged something awful on digital cable and a brand new High-def TV so I wouldn't have to miss the finale. Now *that's* Buffy obsession;)

With that and more time now that classes are finally over I can get back to my true (pre)occupation--hanging about on the board.

So, what'd I miss?

---Haecceity

[> [> (Thanks Haecceity! Glad you're back!) -- WickedAKA ;>, 12:44:09 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> good luck on your finals, haecceity & rob! -- anom, 15:41:58 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> Thanks! Almost finished...almost! -- Rob, 23:54:25 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> Thanks, anom! & good luck to Rob and others in the midst of finals! -- Haecceity (just finishing the 3rd 20+ pg. paper), 06:46:28 05/17/03 Sat

[> Re: List the top 3 questions -- Cactus Watcher, 22:14:36 05/15/03 Thu

1) How much did Tara know? During "Bargaining" Tara shows considerable knowledge about the spell that brings back Buffy. When Buffy asked Tara to find out if anything went wrong with the spell in the middle of season six, Tara says she checked everything. That implies she knew full well about Willow's sacrifice of the fawn. Did Tara, in fact, know Willow was going that deep into the dark side of magic?

2) Why are all the potentials teenagers? Kendra indicated that she was sent to train with her watcher before she was old enough to remember what her parents looked like.

3) Why didn't Jenny tell anyone she was working on a translation of the spell to put back Angel's soul? Seems like she could have made at least a small step toward peace with Buffy which surely would have pleased Giles.

[> [> Re: List the top 3 questions -- Wizard, 23:18:44 05/15/03 Thu

I can answer #3- she didn't want to get their hopes up. My guess is she was going to inform the SG first, to prevent any stakings, and then try the spell.

[> [> Re: Potentials' ages -- lenair, 10:18:42 05/16/03 Fri

Why are all the potentials teenagers?

I've developed a personal explanation for that one.

Although there are babies and small children around who will one day become potentials, they can't actually be activated yet, no matter how many Slayers ahead of them die. They're just too young. A five-year-old Slayer doesn't make any sense. So the way the system works is, you can't get activated until you reach your teenage years.

Therefore, the First has no interest in these youngers girls. All the First has to do is kill all the teenage potentials; then the younger girls will never be activated.

[> [> [> Nice theory but...(spoilers for Fray) -- O'Cailleagh, 15:47:57 05/16/03 Fri

I don't know if you've heard of, or read 'Fray', lenair, so I'll assume you haven't. Its a comic book written by JW about a Slayer at some point in the future after all the demons have been removed from 'our' reality. Melaka Fray is the first Slayer to be called in quite some time. As she wasn't immediately preceded by another activated Slayer, as is usually the case, she is called at birth. Therefore, if all living Slayers/Potentials were to be horribly slaughtered by the First Evil then the next Potential to be born would be immediately called. It follows that there must be many mini-Slayers walking around their sandpits as we speak!

[> [> [> [> My theory on Potentials' ages -- monsieurxander, 14:28:02 05/17/03 Sat

My theory is that the First's plan is relatively short-term.... The First is only targeting the ones that would make effective slayers in the time before the world ends... If a nine year old was called, exactly what damage could she do? Sure, she'd be strong, but practical strategizing? Probably not.

[> [> Taras Evil and Jennys Big Surprise -- WickedBuffy, 19:13:05 05/16/03 Fri

#1) Tara was more evil than we wanted to believe. More powerful, too. Remember when she snuck in the backdoor of The Magic Shop and tossed that "You Can't See Demons" spell on them all? Knowing full well that their MAIN FUNCTION was BATTLING demons? Screwing up Willows locater spells and letting Willow believe it was Willows lack of talent?

#3) Jenny wanted to really, really surprise everyone by saving Angel. I think I saw her giggling a few times at the computer as she imagined the shock and then utter happiness of all the Scoobies when they realized what she'd pulled off on her own. And how very impressed Giles would be!

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- MiddleFaith, 23:43:29 05/15/03 Thu

(might be spoilery for people who haven't seen the Dawn season)

Ok, did Dawn kill Joyce?

Before you holler, lemme 'splain - they said that Joyce's cancer was a really rare one, and the Doc asked Buffy if her mom used a cell phone, if there were high-power lines near the house, or some sort of energy field...so, I'm thinking, Joyce never had headaches, then 6 months or so after she starts living in close proximity to an extremely powerful energy source, she gets brain cancer. Buffy is protected from the effects, because she's the Slayer...but Joyce is just a mere mortal (of the Slayer-mom variety, but mortal none-the-less...)

and

What is the episode where Buffy is standing at the top of the steps of the school, wearing what I could swear was a BtVS the Movie t-shirt...Kristy Swanson in all her pom-pommed glory...

Oh, and *what* was with the damn cheese-guy??!?!

[> [> Very good question (first one) -- lost_bracelet, 00:00:51 05/16/03 Fri

I kind of wondered that myself, but since Joss let it go, I did, too. After all, people inexplicably get cancer and aneurisms and other sorts of medical problems, even at a young age, alas. I think the purpose of The Body was to illustrate how death -- unexpected, inexplicable -- is part of life.

[> How does The Bronze get away with such lax security? -- MsGiles, 09:09:02 05/16/03 Fri

The top balcony is full of people having sex, being bitten by vampires etc. And it's full of school kids. But there's never anyone on the door.

[> [> After "The Harvest" they have trouble finding a doorman -- lunasea, 10:34:49 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> I'm thinking The Bronze is owned by Wolfram &* Hart. -- WickedBuffy, 18:44:39 05/16/03 Fri

[> Re: My 3 Burning Questions -- Mystery, 09:53:37 05/16/03 Fri

1. Exactly WHO possessed Willow when she was doing the restoration spell? Was it the PTB? or was it the First? Or someone/thing completely different?

2. Shouldn't Dawn, as a being mystically created from a powerful mystic artifact have some kind of magic ability? I mean we've seen hints by the ease that she casted the zombie spell on Joyce (I personally think it worked), and she threw around the major magic at the poltergist in Conversations, plus I'm a little wondering if her ability to translate anything might be key-related. I just wish there was more time to work on that angle.

3. and this one is a silly one that I just can't help but wondering...what's the deal with Joyce? I firmly believe there was more to her than meets the eye. I'm wondering if maybe she was a Potential that was never called. She had some pretty good instincts in a fight. :-D

[> [> About Joyce ... -- WickedBuffy, 18:32:28 05/19/03 Mon

I always thought she was there because they had to have a parent in the Summers home. Other than a few episodes (Band Candy, etc), she just seemed like a plot device to spin the major characters off of. Sometimes her part seemed fairly superficial or stereotypical, other times she got to really be a distinct, unique character.

Which was sad - I wish she'd had more to her. :/

[> Harmony? -- monsieurxander, 13:50:27 05/16/03 Fri

How exactly did Harmony get sired? She was bitten during the Graduation battle, but it seems highly unlikely that in the midst of a very crowded battle that an anonymous vampire fed off her and made her feed off him while they were being trampled by a hundred teenagers. Plus, the Mayor explicitly stated that he would severely punish any vampire that fed from a human.... Why would the vampire, who presumably did not know Harmony, run the risk of incurring the Mayor's wrath by feeding off her and siring her?

I vaguely remember (but I may be wrong) reading a shooting script that said that another girl beat the vampire off of Harmony with a bat, thereby sparing her. This obviously did not make it to the final cut, and as we all know, if something is in a shooting script and does not make it to the episode, then it is not neccessarily canon.

Did Harmony survive Graduation, only to be sired later? Was she sired by Spike? Why would he sire her?

[> graduation and parents -- graylady, 16:35:02 05/16/03 Fri

Why weren't there any parents at the Sunnydale High graduation at the end of Season 3?

[> [> My theory @ graduation and parents -- WickedBuffy, 11:15:16 05/17/03 Sat

Maybe after Buffy warned Joyce to leave town, Joyce jumped on the phone to spread the news, got the PTA phone bank activated and every parent abandoned their kid to take a sudden emergency trip to Connecticut.

[> [> [> Re: My theory @ graduation and parents -- monsieurxander, 14:17:51 05/17/03 Sat

There *were* parents at graduation. Snyder mentions in passing to the Mayor where the parents will sit, and later we briefly see parents running. However, the parent to student ratio was very small, so I'm thinking that most of the kids told their parents to stay away.

[> [> [> [> Makes you wonder about the kids who *didn't* tell their parent to stay away. -- Archiloih (I might have flipped a coin on that one), 19:11:00 05/17/03 Sat

[> What was the deal with Halfrek and William? -- Jay, 16:50:39 05/16/03 Fri

What happened to Willow's thing with frogs?

What happened to Amy's mother? She was trapped in the trophy. What happened to the trophy after the school mysteriously blew up?

How come Whistler never made another appearance on either show?

[> [> Re: What was the deal with Halfrek and William? -- Wizard, 17:10:19 05/16/03 Fri

#1 & #3- Don't know.

#2- IIRC, in the shooting script for the episode when the gang went back to Sunnydale High- the ep right after Hush- there was a little scene which featured the intact statue doing the moving-eye thing, seemingly attempting to contact the Scoobies in desperation. It was cut, maybe because ME thought it had nothing to do with the plot and was a waste of money to do the eye effect. I don't know the real reason.

[> [> Re: What was the deal with Halfrek and William? -- KdS, 02:47:23 05/17/03 Sat

#3 Because the actor went through a very bad personal patch at the time AtS S1 was being cast, and was in no fit state.

[> Giles' high school library -- mamcu, 21:01:41 05/16/03 Fri

How did Giles get all those rare black-arts books into a high school library? And how did he keep them from getting stolen?

How did he get the job in the first place?

[> [> I always thought Giles brought those books with him to SHS -- WickedBuffy, 22:34:57 05/17/03 Sat

[> Spike Counselling? (maybe past spoilers) -- SS, 07:25:02 05/17/03 Sat

How did Spike meet Holden Webster in the first place?

Did he go to the psychologist for counselling about his insanity?

To be a fly on the wall in that session!

And did the First want Holden to analyze Buffy to help it find her weaknesses?

And where did the Counsel of Watchers get their money? And exactly how big was it?

:)

SS

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS: spoilers for CWDP. -- Eryn, 22:53:49 05/17/03 Sat

My major question is this: Why didn't the FE appear to Willow as Tara in CWDP?
I know the real-life reason, because AB couldn't/wouldn't return to the show.
But within the confines of the narrative, how to make sense of the fact that the FE chose to appear to Willow as a character with whom she had little connection?
Ultimately I decided that it was a great punishment for Willow to hear that she couldn't see Tara because of what Willow had done. Still, that explanation doesn't quite convince me . . . .

Eryn

[> [> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS: spoilers for WAY. -- Eryn, 23:21:29 05/17/03 Sat

I just thought of another question: In "Who Are You," when Faith-as-Buffy is in bed with Riley, Riley says, "I love you," and Faith-as-Buffy replies, "Who are you? What do you want with her?" (Paraphrasing from memory here.) What the heck was that about? I remember reading a really interesting theory that Willow's spirit was floating off in the ether on the way to the underworld and accidentally came in contact with Buffy's body, but wouldn't Willow recognize Riley? Was this ever explained?

Eryn

[> [> Possible Reasons Why Tara Didn't Appear -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 02:45:06 05/18/03 Sun

Any or all of the possible reasons:

1) The First could assume Tara's form but knew it couldn't play her personality convincingly enough to manipulate Willow. The First, after all, wanted Willow to kill herself. And Willow would never buy the notion that Tara wanted Willow to die. Cassie, on the other hand, was unknown to Willow personally, so The-First-As-Cassie had no expectations of behavior to overcome.

2) Willow's immediate reaction on seeing Tara would have been to reach out and hug her. The First can't be touched. I think the Scoobies knew that, at that point.

3) On seeing Tara, Willow would have focused on telling Tara she loved her (probably as she was flipping through magic books to find a way to bring Tara all the way back). The First would have been unable to respond in a way that fit Tara's loving nature. The First Evil is barren. It cannot love, and it can't express, or even believably fake, an emotion that it cannot understand. It could mimic sarcasm and contempt (The Buffy that appears to Spike), professional concern (Holden), sadomasochism (the Dru that appears to Spike) and so on. It's very good at playing on negative emotions. But it can't express love, not in a believable way. Willow knew Tara very well; an unloving or insincerely affectionate Tara would have tipped the First's hand in two minutes.

4) Perhaps the First couldn't take on the forms of Tara OR Joyce, because of their deep love for Willow and Dawn, respectively. Perhaps Tara and Joyce simply refused to allow such a thing.

5) The First knew that depriving Willow of seeing and hearing Tara would hurt her much more effectively, and would get Willow into a state of helpless, unthinking guilt and black, crushing despair that much faster. After all, the LAST thing the First wanted was for Willow to ask any awkward questions that might reveal its deception.

[> [> [> Really good ideas re: FE & Tara--thanks. -- Eryn, 07:36:57 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> Wonderful theories but I think it was also BUCKS. -- Dandy, 12:30:51 05/18/03 Sun

I have read that ME wanted Amber Benson to come back but she refused. Christopher Golden made some comments that led me to believe tht Amber felt slighted by the money men and felt insulted. I think Marti Noxon also mentioned wanting Amber for the final or one of the final episodes but Amber refused.
I really could not quote you sources for this information. I just tend to read it and move on, so, sorry, no footnotes.

[> [> [> [> Uh, Dandy, Eryn mentioned money as a real-life reason in her original post. -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 15:31:18 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> Well, no, she didn't. She said that Amber Benson couldn't/wouldn't appear. -- Rhys, correcting herself, 15:35:28 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, no, she didn't. She said that Amber Benson couldn't/wouldn't appear. -- Eryn, 17:31:28 05/18/03 Sun

When I said that, I meant that explanations based on the actual, behind-camera situation were not needed, since the reason Tara didn't appear is that Amber Benson wouldn't appear. I just wanted to know how a viewer can make sense of Tara's absence strictly within the context of the narrative. Great ideas on that, by the way.

Eryn

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, no, she didn't. She said that Amber Benson couldn't/wouldn't appear. -- Rhys, trying to speak so that she is understood, 17:55:48 05/18/03 Sun

Yeah, I understood that, Eryn. Dandy didn't seem to. Only my explanation got all tangled up. Sorry.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, no, she didn't. She said that Amber Benson couldn't/wouldn't appear. -- Dandy, 20:08:37 05/18/03 Sun

Oh no, sorry all, I did not read the earlier post about Amber.

[> [> [> some of these work for me, some don't -- anom, 20:49:01 05/18/03 Sun

"1) The First could assume Tara's form but knew it couldn't play her personality convincingly enough to manipulate Willow. The First, after all, wanted Willow to kill herself. And Willow would never buy the notion that Tara wanted Willow to die. Cassie, on the other hand, was unknown to Willow personally, so The-First-As-Cassie had no expectations of behavior to overcome."

Absolutely, on both counts. Although I'd say it could have played Tara convincingly but not both done that and pressured Willow to kill herself. It would've had to break character for that. But it did have Cassie down pretty accurately till it tried to go too far. True, Willow had no way to know that, but we could see it. On the other hand, it has been a little off in some of its portrayals--Spike even says so to FE-as-Drusilla. But Willow might have wanted it to really be Tara so much that she'd overlook something that wasn't quite right--kind of like Giles did when he thought James' ghost was Jenny's in I Only Have Eyes for You, or the whole gang did w/the Buffybot in Intervention. She might have just chalked it up to Tara's having died, which could, y'know, change a person.

"2) Willow's immediate reaction on seeing Tara would have been to reach out and hug her. The First can't be touched. I think the Scoobies knew that, at that point."

Actually, I don't think they did. This is the 1st time we see the FE appear to them, & they haven't identified it as the FE yet. Certainly Willow would've tried to hug Tara, but not being able to touch her could've been explained as Tara's being a ghost (although one that looked like her living self more than the ghosts we've seen so far on both shows).

"3)...But it can't express love, not in a believable way. Willow knew Tara very well; an unloving or insincerely affectionate Tara would have tipped the First's hand in two minutes."

I'm not so sure of this. Again, Willow might have wanted to believe it was Tara enough to convince herself. I'd cite "Joyce's" appearance to Dawn as an example of the FE's ability to express love, but we're still not sure she really was the FE. Which brings us to...

"4) Perhaps the First couldn't take on the forms of Tara OR Joyce, because of their deep love for Willow and Dawn, respectively. Perhaps Tara and Joyce simply refused to allow such a thing."

I doubt they had any choice. I can't see the FE asking permission. I'm trying to remember if Buffy ever saw the FE as Spike, since the show seems to be saying his love for Buffy is the real thing. Can't think of any other examples, though, so I can't cite any actual evidence this isn't true.

"5) The First knew that depriving Willow of seeing and hearing Tara would hurt her much more effectively, and would get Willow into a state of helpless, unthinking guilt and black, crushing despair that much faster. After all, the LAST thing the First wanted was for Willow to ask any awkward questions that might reveal its deception."

Good one. And we see how Willow reacts to being told she can't see Tara. But the FE miscalculated about how far into despair Willow would sink as a result--she wasn't as "ripe" as it thought.

[> Who were the "first men"? (spoilers EoD) -- WickedBuffy, 21:54:21 05/18/03 Sun

Sticking the Shadowmen and now the Guardian into BtVS has really confused me - especially what terms refer to who and when. Right when I think I have a rough understanding of the past, some more characters pop up. Why aren't women mentioned as much, coming or going.

Like this:

Buffy and Guardian talking in Temple:

Guardian:
"Forged there, it was put to use right here. Only once, to kill the last pure demon that walked upon the earth. The rest were already driven under. And then there were men here, and then there were monks, and the first men died and were sent away, and then there was a town, and now there is you. And the scythe remained hidden."

Who were the "first men" she referred to in that sequence? The Shadowmen? And if they died, how or why were they "sent away"? and by who/what?

[> [> Re: Who were the "first men"? (spoilers EoD) -- Wizard, 02:43:40 05/19/03 Mon

Actually, this question was answered waaayyy back in WTTH or The Harvest. The first men would have had to be the Spanish explorers who discovered the area, the ones who eventually gave it the name "Boca del Infierno," meaning "the Mouth of Hell," or more commonly the Hellmouth. The area was discovered long before the Mayor built Sunnydale, hence the impression of a time gap between the men dying and being sent away and the town springing up.

[> [> [> could've been before that ("discovered"?) -- anom, 11:07:47 05/19/03 Mon

"The first men would have had to be the Spanish explorers who discovered the area, the ones who eventually gave it the name 'Boca del Infierno,' meaning 'the Mouth of Hell,' or more commonly the Hellmouth."

We've seen men who were there before the Spanish: the Chumash Indians. For all we know, they had a name for the area in their language that also meant "mouth of hell," & "boca del infierno" is a translation of it. Or it could have been a source of power for them in a way that the Spanish attributed to its being the mouth of hell. That could explain why some of them were able to come back as vengeance spirits in Pangs. Certainly they died & were sent away as a result of the Spanish "discovery" (if a place is already inhabited, how can you say other people who come later have discovered it?), which explains why there was any reason for them to come back as vengeance spirits, as well as fitting in w/what the Guardian said.

[> [> [> [> The "sent away" part sounded odd to me, I guess. -- WIckedBuffy- Yes, I read many things into small spaces. :>, 18:17:00 05/19/03 Mon

they weren't chased out, or forced out or died out - it was as if some godlike power sent them away for something.

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- ANDREA, 22:29:00 05/18/03 Sun

1. HOW OLD EXACTLY IS FAITH? I REALLY DONT CARE MUCH ABOUT THE LACK OF LAST NAME BUT THA AGE THING HAS ALWAYS MAKE ME WONDER HOW MUCH OLDER OR YOUNGER SHE IS THAN BUFFY.
2.WHY DIND'T DAWN EVER DEVELOPE POWER OF ANY SORT. CAUSE I BELIEVE SHE IS STILL THE KEY, MAYBE THERE IS NO DOOR BUT SHE SHLOUD HAVE WITHIN HER THE ENERGY TO OPENA DOOR, AND IS REPRESSED SOMEWHERE IN HER AND SHOLD BE REALESED IN A MAGIC WAY.
3.DID XANDER & ANYA'S ABSENCE IN CONVERSATIONS MEAN SOMETHIN?
WHERE DID ANYA LIVED RIGHT AFTER SHE BECAME HUMAN??
4. WAHY WAS ANGEL THE ONLY ONE WHO COUL TAKE THE SWORD OF AKATHLA AND HOW THE HELL COULD GILES KNOW ABOUT IT?

[> [> A few answers -- Farquarson, Formerly Rhys, 09:14:41 05/19/03 Mon

Looks like you have Caps Lock on your keyboard. Look on the left of the keyboard and see if the Caps Lock button is lit up. If it is, push it. Then you'll be able to type normally, with both capital and small letters.

1) How old is Faith?

We can be relatively sure that Buffy is a little older than Faith. We haven't seen any examples of any Potentials older than Buffy herself. Even Kennedy, at 19, worried that she was too old to be a Slayer.

We can probably assume that as of the third-season episode "Helpless," which aired on January 19, 1999, she was younger than 18. Buffy, who is turning eighteen, is going through the Crucimentium, the ritual of the Watcher Council that strips a Slayer of her powers and sends her out to kill a vampire. (As a Slayer's chief value to the Council is that she DOES have supernatural powers, there seems little point in stripping her of them and putting her in a situation in which a vampire could kill an experienced Slayer, but that's the Council for you.)

Quentin Travers tells Giles: Cruciamentum is not easy... for Slayer or Watcher. But it's been done this way for a dozen centuries. Whenever a Slayer turns eighteen. It's a time-honored rite of passage.

I think that if Faith had already gone through the Crucimentium, Travers would have mentioned it to the increasingly agitated Giles as a means of reassuring him that yes, a Slayer could go through this test and pass. Plus, if Faith had undergone this test, she probably would have told Buffy and the Scoobies--she generally presented herself to them as "tough girl." So she is probably under 18 in 1999.

We also know that Faith was of age in "Sanctuary," the first-season Angel episode (corresponding to fourth-season Buffy, which aired on May 2, 2000. We know this because Faith turned herself in to the cops and wound up in a women's prison automatically. There was no mention of her being a juvie who might be tried as an adult. So Faith has to be at least 18 in this episode.

If Faith was under eighteen as of Buffy's eighteenth birthday in January 1999, and if she was eighteen in May 2000, then Faith is about a year to a year and a half younger than Buffy. We also know that her birthday is not in January, but that it is no later than early May.

So, as of May 2003, Faith is about 21 years old.

See also http://panthermoon.com/destiny/buffy/age.html

***

2) Why doesn't Dawn have magical powers?

She does.

We've seen her cast a few spells, the most notable one being the one that brought back (though we never saw her) Zombie Joyce. Tara was extremely concerned about the possibility of Dawn's casting that spell, because it was very powerful and very dark. Even Doc--the Glory-worshipping reptilian demon--felt obliged to warn Dawn a few times. It was the first spell we saw Dawn cast, and she had no problem whatsoever. And in "Conversations with Dead People," Dawn performs another spell, one to free Joyce's spirit (or whatever it is) from the froglike demon battening on her. If Dawn were not surrounded by people with extraordinary abilities of their own, her talent for magic might have been noticed by now.

***

4) Why was Angel the only one who could wield the Sword of Acathla, and why did Giles know this?

I don't think that Angelus was the only one who could remove the Sword of Acathla. Anyone could have taken it, provided they knew the ritual and the correct words, and were willing to sacrifice their own blood.

As for how Giles knew--well, Giles is a born researcher. He recognized the obelisk initially as containing something, and I've no doubt that he searched his books until he found out what the obelisk was. Likewise, once the obelisk was stolen, Giles would have had a pretty good idea who had taken it--Angelus being the alpha male in the hierarchy of Sunnydale's vampires, and the one who had consistently shown himself to be the cruelest and the most sadistic. Also, Kendra arrived, with a blessed weapon and some information from her own Watcher, Sam Zabuto. Giles could very well have pieced together enough information about the ritual to understand what Angelus had to do to make it work.

***

Don't know about the Xander and Anya stuff, sorry.

[> [> [> But then when did Faith undergo Cruicamentum? -- mamcu, 16:02:50 05/19/03 Mon

Was it while she was in a coma? Not possible? Maybe in jail--maybe that was the experience that made her change.

[> [> [> [> Ouch. I thought only boy babies got that done to them? -- WickedBuffy };>, 17:51:29 05/19/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> I think we can safely assume she never did, and Buffy was the last person to suffer through it. -- V, 22:54:29 05/19/03 Mon

[> [> A few answers -- Farquarson, Formerly Rhys, 09:17:03 05/19/03 Mon

Looks like you have Caps Lock on your keyboard. Look on the left of the keyboard and see if the Caps Lock button is lit up. If it is, push it. Then you'll be able to type normally, with both capital and small letters.

1) How old is Faith?

We can be relatively sure that Buffy is a little older than Faith. We haven't seen any examples of any Potentials older than Buffy herself. Even Kennedy, at 19, worried that she was too old to be a Slayer.

We can probably assume that as of the third-season episode "Helpless," which aired on January 19, 1999, she was younger than 18. Buffy, who is turning eighteen, is going through the Crucimentium, the ritual of the Watcher Council that strips a Slayer of her powers and sends her out to kill a vampire. (As a Slayer's chief value to the Council is that she DOES have supernatural powers, there seems little point in stripping her of them and putting her in a situation in which a vampire could kill an experienced Slayer, but that's the Council for you.)

Quentin Travers tells Giles: Cruciamentum is not easy... for Slayer or Watcher. But it's been done this way for a dozen centuries. Whenever a Slayer turns eighteen. It's a time-honored rite of passage.

I think that if Faith had already gone through the Crucimentium, Travers would have mentioned it to the increasingly agitated Giles as a means of reassuring him that yes, a Slayer could go through this test and pass. Plus, if Faith had undergone this test, she probably would have told Buffy and the Scoobies--she generally presented herself to them as "tough girl." So she is probably under 18 in 1999.

We also know that Faith was of age in "Sanctuary," the first-season Angel episode (corresponding to fourth-season Buffy, which aired on May 2, 2000. We know this because Faith turned herself in to the cops and wound up in a women's prison automatically. There was no mention of her being a juvie who might be tried as an adult. So Faith has to be at least 18 in this episode.

If Faith was under eighteen as of Buffy's eighteenth birthday in January 1999, and if she was eighteen in May 2000, then Faith is about a year to a year and a half younger than Buffy. We also know that her birthday is not in January, but that it is no later than early May.

So, as of May 2003, Faith is about 21 years old.

See also http://panthermoon.com/destiny/buffy/age.html

***

2) Why doesn't Dawn have magical powers?

She does.

We've seen her cast a few spells, the most notable one being the one that brought back (though we never saw her) Zombie Joyce. Tara was extremely concerned about the possibility of Dawn's casting that spell, because it was very powerful and very dark. Even Doc--the Glory-worshipping reptilian demon--felt obliged to warn Dawn a few times. It was the first spell we saw Dawn cast, and she had no problem whatsoever. And in "Conversations with Dead People," Dawn performs another spell, one to free Joyce's spirit (or whatever it is) from the froglike demon battening on her. If Dawn were not surrounded by people with extraordinary abilities of their own, her talent for magic might have been noticed by now.

***

4) Why was Angel the only one who could wield the Sword of Acathla, and why did Giles know this?

I don't think that Angelus was the only one who could remove the Sword of Acathla. Anyone could have taken it, provided they knew the ritual and the correct words, and were willing to sacrifice their own blood.

As for how Giles knew--well, Giles is a born researcher. He recognized the obelisk initially as containing something, and I've no doubt that he searched his books until he found out what the obelisk was. Likewise, once the obelisk was stolen, Giles would have had a pretty good idea who had taken it--Angelus being the alpha male in the hierarchy of Sunnydale's vampires, and the one who had consistently shown himself to be the cruelest and the most sadistic. Also, Kendra arrived, with a blessed weapon and some information from her own Watcher, Sam Zabuto. Giles could very well have pieced together enough information about the ritual to understand what Angelus had to do to make it work.

***

Don't know about the Xander and Anya stuff, sorry.

[> [> [> Don't forget Dawns (sudden) and amazing ability to translate odd languages. -- WickedBuffy -or is it a required class at Sunnydale High?, 18:23:54 05/19/03 Mon

Then again, maybe she just read a "How To" book on it.

"Translating Extremely Difficult and Rare Dead Languages For Dummies"

[> [> [> [> Re: Don't forget Dawns (sudden) and amazing ability to translate odd languages. -- drew the lurker, 22:17:26 05/19/03 Mon

Then again, maybe she just read a "How To" book on it.

"Translating Extremely Difficult and Rare Dead Languages For Dummies"

Of course, in Sunnyhell, SHOULDN'T a class like this be required? I mean, in self defense at least.

[> How ever did Glory get planning permission for that tower? -- MsGiles, 08:09:11 05/19/03 Mon

She was a god, I know, could have pulled strings, and Sunnydale Council is no den of propriety.. but the darn tower was still up when Buffy came back, a couple of months later. And it was totally unsafe. It could have fallen on someone at anytime! It was built by crazy people! What are those officials playing at? And all those derelict buildings all over the place, waiting to be burned down, or be *ahem* smashed up. That town needs some serious neighbourhood renewal.

[> [> Re: How ever did Glory get planning permission for that tower? -- Farquarson, 10:52:14 05/19/03 Mon

I didn't think she built it openly. I thought that the tower that Glory needed was being built by a construction company in Sunnydale--maybe as an apartment building, ostensibly, without any conscious knowledge on the part of the architect or the construction company that this tower was being built for Glory's Sacrifice of the Key.

[> [> [> I think she got the permit from the Mayor - waaay back when. -- WickedJustWastingTimeTilTomorrowNight, 17:53:18 05/19/03 Mon

[> [> [> or sports complex? Great high board, pity they forgot the pool -- MsGiles, 05:20:29 05/20/03 Tue

[> Re: List the top 3 questions that continue to haunt you about BtVS. -- O'Cailleagh, 19:01:52 05/19/03 Mon

Just one question for me...Buffy is the Guardian of the Hellmouth-ok, but what about the other Hellmouths that have been hinted at in the past? Why aren't they in need of guarding? Why isn't the First trying something Evil with them? Okay, thats actually three questions after all, but they interlink, and I am tired!

O'Cailleagh

[> [> And on the subject of Guardians -- V, 22:56:32 05/19/03 Mon

Is the "Guardian" of the Hellmouth (Buffy) related in some way to the other "Guardian" we recently met?

Masq, you made it to Screen Savers on Tech TV -- gds, 16:35:59 05/15/03 Thu

Your site was the first they mentioned about Buffy.

[> It's on again tomorrow morning, -- Arethusa, 17:07:53 05/15/03 Thu

According to my TiVO guide, it's on again 7 am tomorrow, central US time. Check your local listings!

[> [> And Congratulations, Masq! -- Arethusa, 17:09:32 05/15/03 Thu

[> Can someone tape it for me? -- Masq, 18:55:47 05/15/03 Thu

I don't think I have this channel.

[> [> Re: Can someone tape it for me? -- gds, 20:44:58 05/15/03 Thu

I can re-record it. I already deleted the first broadcast.

[> [> Are you sure? -- gds, 21:12:06 05/15/03 Thu

That network is broadcast from San Francisco. Of course I live in Nashville and can't get a show filmed here because my cable doesn't carry the network that carries that show.

[> [> [> It's not on the cable channels I get -- Masq, 21:43:14 05/15/03 Thu

I get a pretty limited selection.

[> [> [> [> Re: It's not on the cable channels I get -- gds, 21:49:17 05/15/03 Thu

I have programmed my recorder to record the show tomorrow morning.

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks! -- Masq, 06:37:46 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> For that matter, can someone give us a transcription of what they say? -- Random, 07:09:33 05/16/03 Fri

ATPoBtVS&AtS on TV! -- J, 16:37:56 05/15/03 Thu

I was just watching "The Screen Savers" on TechTV, and they did a feature on Buffy sites . . . specifically MASQ's site! They talked about the site and what you could find on it for about three minutes! Congrats Masq, and prepare for a sudden jump in hits!

[> Jinx! -- J, 16:39:26 05/15/03 Thu

[> J, are you serious? -- Masq, 18:43:19 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Well... -- Masq, 18:46:58 05/15/03 Thu

I just went to the site that gives me the referring URLs to my site, and it's full of the techtv hits!

[> Here's the URL for the site it's on -- Tyreseus, 18:48:19 05/15/03 Thu

http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/0,24330,3429045,00.html

[> Hey, thank you Heather Frank! -- dub ;o), 20:28:07 05/15/03 Thu

Do we know who you are, Heather? C'mon. 'Fess up, girl!

;o)

How old is the Wiccan religion? And, how old are all the other practicing religions? -- Vash the Stamped, 16:42:37 05/15/03 Thu

Okay, Christianity was established after Jesus' death or during his teaching years (since he considered himself Jewish, but some didn't believe he was the son of God, I've never been quite certain when Christianity truely began), so that makes it roughly 1,970 years old. I think I read somewhere that the Jewish faith is around 5,000 years old (or was it 3,000, I can't remember). So, what about the rest? Hindu, Wicca, Buddist, etc? Anyone know?

Vash (to lazy to look it up himself)

[> Okay : First off, "Wicca" is only about 150 years old.... -- Briar Rose, 17:06:30 05/15/03 Thu

"Wicca" is based on the teachings of Gerald Gardner, who first formed an Earth Religion based on a set of tenets he came up with and called his newly created religion Wicca. This was a side branch of his involvement of the "Spiritualist Movement" in the 1840s, along with Alister Crowely and others. Gardner borrowed heavily from MANY different religions in creating his own of Wicca and a lot of it was borrowed directly from the Christians and Jews.

Not all Witches are Wiccans! It is not simply an interchangeable word for Witch.

The next youngest religion (and it was mostly a joke at inception) is the Druid Reformed, which was created by a fraternity at the University of Michigan in the 1960's as a way to claim "conctientious obstainer" status because of the draft going on for Vietnam. The third being the Golden Dawn of San Francisco, the brain child of Anton LeVay, and based on Alister Crowley's teachings. Satanism, if you will. Satanism came after Christianity anyway, because Satan is a Christian invention. Therefore, you have to believe in Satan to worship him, which means you have a basis in Christianity.

Witchcraft (this term I use simply to be understood) is any of the forms of Earth Based Aboriginal religions that have nothing to do with Christianity, Wicca, or Islamic/Muslim religions and were around since humanity was evolved/created. This category includes everything from Native American/European/African/Indian/etc religions that were being practiced before the later "revealed" religions.

Buddism and Judaism are closely related to "witch craft"in the wide conglomerate because both were around before any of the revealed religions (Christianity/Muslim/Islam) except the conglomerate of "witch craft."

[> [> Thanks Rose, very interesting. Sorry about the Wicca/Wiccan mistake -- Vash the Stampede, 17:14:13 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Okay : First off, "Wicca" is only about 150 years old.... -- O'Cailleagh, 18:08:11 05/15/03 Thu

Hmmmm...150 years Briar? Closer to 60. Gardner's original coven (the one he started, not the one in the New Forest which he may or may not have belonged to) was created in the 1940s or '50s. Also, I'm not too sure about his involvement in the 'Spiritualist Movement' in the 1840s because I don't think he was born then (not at home so can't hit the books) and if he was, and old enough to be involved in Spiritualism, then he would have been about 150 when he died!
His involvement with Aleister Crowley came much later too, in the final few years or so of Crowley's life. Most credible sources agree that Crowley had little to do with the creation of Gardenerian Wicca, although Gardner himself admitted on several occasions that he 'borrowed' some Crowleyian stuff because it sounded pretty (as he did from many literary sources, for example Rudyard Kipling). Doreen Valiente (Gardener's High Priestess) removed a lot of it when she rewrote Gardner's work, as she felt it had no place in the Craft.
Furthermore, Gardnerian Wicca has a lot less Jewish material than is commonly thought, and no Christian material at all. It does has some Ceremonial and Qabalistic stuff, but thats it- on the 'Judeo-Christian' front at least. Alexandrian Wicca, an offshoot of Gardnerianism, is possibly what is causing your confusion there as it does contain more Ceremonial Magick-but still nothing Christian.
Wicca *is* a form of Witchcraft, a modern form based partly on older Pagan teachings (such as the New Forest stuff, and CG Leland's Gospel of the Witches).
There was also a Druid order started around the same time as Gardner's Wicca, here in Britain though not the one you refer to, and this one was serious from the beginning! I forget which one it was, either the British Druid Order, or the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids.
Hope I helped to straighten out a few things there.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> O'Cailleagh has got it right :) -- Xaverri, 20:52:18 05/15/03 Thu

Wicca was created in the 1950s and 60s by Gardener (Witchcraft Today, his big coming out of the broom closet book, was published in 1954). He claimed he was bringing something he was already a part of into the light. What he wrote was filtered through many people, Valiente and Raymond Buckland being two of the more well known ones, before Wicca became more of what we know it as today. Wicca tries to balance a respect for the wisdom of ancient peoples with the intelligence of today, and therefore it is a continually evolving religion. Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism. It has many similarities to Druidism, but they are not the same thing. Our beloved Willow is not in any way shape or form Wiccan. Wicca is a religion, not a method for taking out hellgoddesses. ;)

As O'Cailleagh pointed out, Wicca is a form of witchcraft. It is not witchcraft. You can be a witch and not be Wiccan. You can use magick and not be Wiccan. To be Wiccan, you adhere to certain laws and standards, you go through extensive training, and you get initiated (I'm in the process).

On another note, Wicca is not the newest religion out there. It is one of the newest widely practiced religions. Scientology was formed in the 50's, and that's the only other one I can think of off the top of my head. Oh, and Satanism was founded in 1966 by some dude named Anton LeVay. Or was it LaVey. I closed the website before I checked the spelling. Anyway, it's very very different than Wicca. But there have been lots and lots of small religions founded since then.

OK, random religious trivia download ended. Hope that made sense and answered a question or two!

[> Re: How old is the Wiccan religion? And, how old are all the other practicing religions? -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 17:39:52 05/15/03 Thu

Judaism--Started roughly 1700 B.C.E. (before Christian era).

Hinduism--It's hard to tell how old Hinduism is. The best way to tell is by looking at the Vedas, the scriptures that form the basis for Hindu belief. From http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/:

"There are four Vedas, the Rig Veda, Sama Veda, Yajur Veda and Atharva Veda. The Vedas are the primary texts of Hinduism. They also had a vast influence on Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. The Rig Veda, the oldest of the four Vedas, was composed about 1500 B.C., and written down about 600 B.C...The Atharva Veda was written down much later than the rest of the Vedas, about 200 B.C.; it may have been composed about 1000 B.C."

The Upanishads, the last part of the Vedas, were written in Sanskrit between 900 and 500 B.C.E. (or, possibly 800 and 400 B.C.E.).

Zoroastrianism--conceived in the 6th century B.C.E. by Zarathustra (Zoroaster is the Greek translation). Became the state religion of Persian in 226 A.D.

Buddhism--started in the 6th century B.C.E. by Siddhartha Gautama, son of an Indian prince.

Confucianism--started in the 6th century B.C.E. by K'ung Fu-tse or "Grand Master K'ung."

Taoism--started in the 6th century B.C.E. by Lao-Tzu, or "the Grand Old Man." Lao-Tzu and K'ung Fu-tse knew each other; Lao-Tzu is said to have baffled K'ung Fu-tse once in a debate.

Shintoism--developed out of a combo of nature and ancestor worship, roughly 700 B.C.E.

Christianity--started anywhere from 29 A.D. to 33 A.D. (dates are a problem because we don't know when Jesus was born and the internal clues in the Gospels are inconsistent). The first ecumenical council (out of which came the Nicene Creed and affirmation of belief in the Holy Trinity) arrived in 325 A.D. The New Testament was put together somewhere around the end of the fourth century A.D.

Islam--youngest of the megafaiths. Started in 622 A.D., when Mohammed fled from Mecca to Medina.

As for Wicca, I'd advise reading http://wiccanet.tv/articles/02/08/08/014214.shtml on "A History of Wicca," since Wicca's history and background tend to be less well known than those of mainstream faiths.

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