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The Chip Versus The Key? (My First Spoiler!) -- West, 12:18:32 05/15/02 Wed

Just a little bit of nitpicking here, but in Villains Buffy says that Spike can't hurt Dawn because of the chip. This seems a bit odd to me, since Dawn sure ain't human, being a big bundle of interdimensional energy and all.

I know it's a thin line, but if Buffy doesn't count as human, and demons don't count as human, then I really wouldn't expect Dawn to. It's been proven that the chip acts on some sort of higher power than Spike's own perceptions, or he wouldn't have been able to hurt Buffy when he thought he couldn't.

Of course, this is all kinda moot, cause I don't think (hope) that Spike would ever test this theory... I love the Big Bad Brother type relationship, but I'm just sayin', is all. ;)

[> Re: The Chip Versus The Key? (My First Spoiler!) -- tam, 14:05:12 05/15/02 Wed

can a restored spike, a chipless spike ever hurt dawn? an evil spike could not hurt joyce. i think dawn is spike's downfall, or perhaps his redemption.

[> [> Re: The Chip Versus The Key? (My First Spoiler!) -- West, 16:19:40 05/15/02 Wed

Well, it does seem to be the group consensus that Spike would never hurt Dawn.

Of course, that's exactly the kind of belief that would probably inspire ME to turn us all on our ear by making it happen. ;P

[> Re: The Chip Versus The Key? (My First Spoiler!) -- Mike J, 19:02:49 05/15/02 Wed

I suppose it all depends on how you look at it. Dawn is actually human, there is nothing mystical about her until her blood is used at a specific point of time at a specific place. It's been hinted at, earlier in the season, that Dawn's ability to tear down the walls of the universe with other demon realities isn't really a factor any more [until the next really special planetary alignment, etc. etc.]. Of course, this is partially speculation, I may be entirely wrong. But it stands to chance Spike's chip would "register" Dawn as human, and would not permit any physical harm.

[> Re: The Chip Versus The Key? (My First Spoiler!) -- maddog, 21:22:06 05/15/02 Wed

Are we sure Dawn's still the key? After everything was said and done I'm not sure that's the case. We don't have proof either way. And besides, I think Buffy meant that Spike had no reason to hurt Dawn...like he couldn't do it(couldn't bring himself to do it).

[> [> Re: The Chip Versus The Key? (My First Spoiler!) -- O'Cailleagh, 23:27:54 05/15/02 Wed

Dawn must still be the key, she is the form the key was changed to. The key cannot be removed from her as it *is* her, to do so would cease Dawn's existence. And besides, both Glory/Ben and the monks that created Dawn are dead, so who could've 'de-keyed' her?

What is wrong with Buffy and how could she make such an extremely bad decision in Villains.-Spoilers -- Fireflyone, 13:03:26 05/15/02 Wed

What the hell is wrong with Buffy? Less then 24hrs after Spike tried to rape her she decides that it is perfectly acceptable to have Spike baby-sit Dawn. The chip is a completely worthless excuse because if Spike wanted to kill or rape Dawn all he would have to do is put drugs in some food and give it to her. Buffy is completely wrong and off base to leave her sister with a soulless rapist mass murderer.

And to make it even worse when Buffy entered Spike’s crypt and found out he left she looked extremely sad and disappointed. She even asked when he would be coming back. How could she possibly still have feelings for that evil rapist thing?

I hope Xander really slaps some sense into her.

[> Go back to OAFA, -- ramses 2, 13:25:25 05/15/02 Wed

We all were appalled that Spike could just forgive her for almost beating him to death. How could he?
But if you look at the season metaphorically, as in Buffy/Spike representing unbalanced Ying/yang than it makes sense. You could guess that Buffy wasn't going to view the rape scene the same way the audience did. They are part of the same whole. Buffy represemts the right hand, mantis. Strength, moral and physical. She wants to do the right thing. Even if it's wrong. She represents furies justice, alienated from emotions she just wreaks revenge. She beats Spike, rejecting love. Balance.
Spike represents the left hand, weakness and love.(TR, the upturned left hand at the bronze)He commits attempted rape when Buffy denies him yet again any chance to discuss what they have. Communication is necessary for balance. To acknowledge what one is. Buffy is denying that. Love is driven to unbalance. To rage.
Immediately after each epi(following epis) we see Buffy incapable of acknowedging what has happened. She is still estranged from her emotions. She isn't able to realize the whole of Buffy, both girl and slayer. I believe that everything happening this season, is actually representing what is happening to Bufy. She is trying to wrestle with who she is. If you look at SR scene as just rape then you miss the story. She is fighting him, crying that he's hurting her because she is terrified of him discovering who the slayer is. And then leaving her. Just as everyone has always done. Not just to Buffy, but the Slayer.

[> [> I disagree, demons have no right to be treated with the same respect as humans. -- Fireflyone, 14:02:45 05/15/02 Wed

Buffy is justified in whatever harm she causes Spike since is is a soulless demon. In the same way it would be no different if Xander decided to beat Anya to death. She is simply a demon now, it would be no worse then Buffy slaying Vampires. Spike and Anya are not human so they should not be treated as such.

[> [> [> Please do not feed the trolls -- Vickie, 14:35:30 05/15/02 Wed

Inflammatory opinions presented with no backing ratiocination or evidence above! Feed at your own risk.

[> [> [> [> P.S. Ramses: not aimed at you -- Vickie, 14:37:08 05/15/02 Wed

[> [> [> Respect -- Deeva, 14:46:18 05/15/02 Wed

So one has to be human to be treated with respect? I don't have to be nice to the little puppy or kitty because it's not human? I personally don't think that to be true. Everyone/thing deserves a little respect.

Anya maybe a vengence demon now but if all demons have no soul then how did the whole "getting-over-our-ex's-sex" happen? They both had to be feeling low and in need of comfort to get to that level. And in Anya's case, if she were all that interested in gaining vengence, often times any vengence will do even if it's not directed at the source of hatred. She would've thrown herself back into the job that she was once proud of doing.

I have to say that your remark about Xander beating Anya to death scares me. I have come to care for Anya and to see her spoken of in such terms is chilling.

[> [> [> [> Beating myself with keyboard -- ramses 2, 14:57:13 05/15/02 Wed

This is why I left about a month or so ago. Look what I've done today, got into an argument(Can't call it reasoned discussion) and spoiled how many times zones? Allow me to introduce myself, I'm Ramses 2.

[> [> [> [> [> Welcome Ramses....hope you stick around -- Caroline, 15:11:55 05/15/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you Caroline -- ramses 2, 15:42:43 05/15/02 Wed

I've always loved this board.

[> [> [> [> [> Welcome -- Rufus, 15:48:09 05/15/02 Wed

I thought I remembered your name, I must have seen you at the Cross and Stake where I've done more lurking than posting at this year.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yep, from C&S, I've done the inverse lurking. -- ramses 2, 16:39:45 05/15/02 Wed

Have always loved this sight. I love a sight that makes me feel lacking. Talk about growth potential!

[> [> [> [> [> [> I remember you too, but from here. -- VampRiley, 17:53:38 05/15/02 Wed

You'd post. Not post for a bit. Then post again. Glad you came back. Hope you post more. I liked your post above.

VR

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, I was new to posting. Looking for a comfort level. -- ramses 2, 18:43:31 05/15/02 Wed

Again, I love the posters here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks, I was new to posting. Looking for a comfort level. -- Rufus, 20:17:35 05/15/02 Wed

Of course you love us, some of us are delusional enough to worship cats.....;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You can't own cats, -- ramses 2, 20:21:29 05/15/02 Wed

You must worship them. They're gods you know.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You can't own cats, -- Rufus, 20:23:47 05/15/02 Wed

See you fit right in here.....now for the big love there is chocolate involved...;)

[> [> [> Re: I disagree, demons have no right to be treated with the same respect as humans. -- pr10n, 16:12:08 05/15/02 Wed

Which is why Connor nearly whacked Lorne and Cordelia, right? The toxicity that Cordy burned out of him?

Hatred, much?

[> [> [> [> Re: I disagree, demons have no right to be treated with the same respect as humans. -- maddog, 21:07:55 05/15/02 Wed

That also reminds me of the episode with Gunn's friends and how they called "a demon's a demon". Which we all know is bull. I mean look at Clem. Sure, he eats cats....but I've never seen him touch a human. Now I'm not condoning his behavior, but at least the humans are safe from him.

[> [> [> Re: I disagree, demons have no right to be treated with the same respect as humans. -- maddog, 21:03:25 05/15/02 Wed

I'm not so sure I'd add Anya in there. She's not soulless for one. And two, we haven't seen her actually do any damage so we don't know if she's actively doing the harming of the males.

[> O...my...god...i'm defending Spike! -- Goji3, 15:05:10 05/15/02 Wed

Anyway,

A) Spike does not want to harm Dawn in any way, that we know of.

B) Like the rest of the scoobies, Spike has a hard time dealing with even the meerest thought of dawn as an emerging sextual entity.

in anycase, the scenario you propose would require to much forethought for Spike to do in a 12hour stay (which is what Buffy was hopping for at maximum).

And now, the part of the post that truely shows that this was done in the heat of the moment!

"Buffy entered Spike’s crypt and found out he left she looked extremely sad and disappointed. She even asked when he would be coming back. How could she possibly still have feelings for that evil rapist thing?"

Confused a bit here, having only seen it once and not recorded it, i'm thinking that you are applying to Buffy things that Dawn did. Hell Dawns the one who suggested Spikes crypt in the first place.

Aside, dire circumstances, one does not always think strait.

Aside from which...
Buffy had feelings for Spike?...that might imply that they were things other than wanton Gutteral/carnal desires.

[> [> I think there is a pill for that......;) -- Rufus, 15:53:04 05/15/02 Wed

Buffy had feelings for Spike?...that might imply that they were things other than wanton Gutteral/carnal desires.

So, what's the problem the feelings or the desires?...:):):):)

[> Fireflyone is a known troll here, guys...Just ignore him. -- Rob, 17:12:40 05/15/02 Wed

[> What is wrong with Buffy and how could she make such an extremely bad decision in Villains.-Spoilers -- maddog, 20:56:46 05/15/02 Wed

It's obvious you got nothing out of the past few months worth of episodes. First off, Spike's beef is with Buffy. His frustration is with her and her lack of a committment to their relationship. That's what sent him off the deep end last week. Second, he cares for Dawn. That's been obvious since last season. He's not going to harm her just to teach Buffy a lesson. And third, he was never going to rape Buffy...he couldn't...she wouldn't allow it. In fact, he never did rape her...so to call him a rapist is a bit far fetched(considering you have to rape someone to be considered a rapist).

[> Re: Semantics, the act and motivation - agrees with maddog -- Tach, 04:53:29 05/16/02 Thu

I have to go with maddog on this one; why?

First: In order to call Spike a rapist, he would have indeed had to have been succesful in rape.

Second: And I hate to get into this, it comes off so horribly and it's been discussed already...

Rape is an act of violence, control and power, it is not about sex, although consuming love can lead to it we are then going into serial killer territory. (As in the ultimate consumption by love, will lead you from covet to destruction.)

As usual, I digress :). We know that Spike did not "vamp" in the bathroom scene, he was not angry. This leads to the lack of violence or ill thoughts in the act.

What the act was, is desperation.

Onto the third part and this is the worst of it. Throughout their relationship, Buffy has taught Spike that sometimes, most times, "No means Yes". This is not something to take lightly. He has been trained, that even if she says she doesn't want it she really does. He was trying to prove a point - that being that she loved him, and mostly that she loved him when he was "inside her".

Hey it stinks to put into words, but it's all there. I am not saying to give Spike a break, or try to get into the whole debate, merely pointing out some outstanding facts.

Thanks for reading

A dumb episode title question -- clg0107, 13:43:25 05/15/02 Wed

Now, I will admit that I usually forget to look for it, but I have never actually seen the episode title in the broadcast episodes. I often see them for other shows. When/where does it appear, or does it at all?

Thanks!

~clg0107

[> A good question -- matching mole, 13:51:04 05/15/02 Wed

The episode titles for BtVS and AtS certainly do not appear anywhere in the opening credits which is where they typically appears in other shows. I always find out the titles from here - I assume the ultimate source is on the internet. The official sites or somewhere else entirely.

My impression is that actually showing the episode title in the credits of shows is a lot less common now than it was in the 1960s for example. But I don't watch that wide a range of TV so I could be wrong. I don't know why this should be true other than the whims of fashion.

[> [> Re: They aren't in the end credits etiher. -- LittleBit, 14:03:27 05/15/02 Wed

[> [> Re: A good question -- clg0107, 14:07:44 05/15/02 Wed

Like you, I learn the ep titles from the internet. But that made me recently wonder about the broadcast.

I have found it more common nowadays that the episode title is broadcast with the show, and chalked it up to the fact that the fans have the internet on which to discuss their favorites, so that there is now an interest amongst the audience in knowing the episode names.

Just my supposition though.

Good to know I'm not just crazy if they aren't actually putting the name into the opening anywhere....

Thanks ~

clg0107

[> A good question -- matching mole, 13:56:59 05/15/02 Wed

The episode titles for BtVS and AtS certainly do not appear anywhere in the opening credits which is where they typically appears in other shows. I always find out the titles from here - I assume the ultimate source is on the internet. The official sites or somewhere else entirely.

My impression is that actually showing the episode title in the credits of shows is a lot less common now than it was in the 1960s for example. But I don't watch that wide a range of TV so I could be wrong. I don't know why this should be true other than the whims of fashion.

[> Re: A dumb episode title question -- Lyonors, 14:49:12 05/15/02 Wed

Well---I have digital cable, and they always list the ep title when you look up the info about the listings.

Ly

[> Re: A dumb episode title question -- skeeve, 15:23:49 05/15/02 Wed

I wish that they would broadcast the titles. I usually have to get it from the newspaper or from digital cable.

[> [> Before I started posting here... -- Cactus Watcher, 19:45:29 05/15/02 Wed

I didn't know titles except for past seasons, which could be found several places. I label my tapes with my own titles which are easier for me to remember. Can anyone guess what the real episode titles were for what I labeled "Movie Critics" and "Tall, Dark and Stupid," and why I called them that? (hint - they were numerically consecutive episodes)

[> [> [> I like this game -- newmoon, 23:11:39 05/15/02 Wed

Is it the Replacement and Out of my Mind?

Or Restless and Dracula?

My first thought from "movie critics" was the beginning of the replacement when Buffy criticizes the fight scene and Xander mimics Willow's witch criticisms. But Restless had the video discussion up front too. If forced to one guess, I'll go with my first instinct, because I have to think you're own title for Dracula would still be Dracula, no?

Am I right? If so, do I win anything?

[> [> [> [> Second guess is the winner -- CW, 05:58:00 05/16/02 Thu

Movie Critics - The whole gang swears they couldn't sleep. Then minutes after Xander pops in the video, its dreamland.

Dracula is, as always, talk, dark and handsome. But coming to Sunnydale to look up the world-reknowned slayer? Not a good plan for any vampire.

As usual on this board you get a cyber-chocolate, but since it took two guesses, some Canandian kitten/cat lover probably gobbled up half of it while you were typing. ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> Talk about stupid! -- CW, 06:26:29 05/16/02 Thu

Anybody know where 'Canandia' is? ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Canandia: 'bout 3,000 miles north of Hawaya -- meow, 10:08:15 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, the most important thing to remember (to paraphrase Dave Foley from "Newsradio") is... -- A8, 17:58:36 05/16/02 Thu

...just because they are Canadians does not mean they are spies.;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Second guess is the winner -- newmoon, 11:32:11 05/16/02 Thu

I must say, your titles are far more creative than mine. My tapes say things like "Tara gets brain sucked".

[> [> [> [> [> You talkin about me again CW? -- Rufus, 00:33:58 05/17/02 Fri

Who has no idea where your chocolate is...honest..;)

[> [> [> Re: Before I started posting here... -- tost, 05:36:47 05/16/02 Thu

My guess would be "The Pack" and "Angel". Depends on your feelings about critics.

Willow & Neil Young (numerous spoilers, esp. SR & Villains) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 15:27:14 05/15/02 Wed

" . . . and once you're gone
You can't come back --
When you're out of the blue
and into the black . . . "

Neil Young, Rust Never Sleeps

or,

"Can Evil Wear Fuzzy Sweaters?"

My brief review of posters indicates that many are wondering how ME is going to bring Willow back from her magic and torture rampage. Whedon & Co. do very well at keeping an inner logic in the Buffyverse; actions have consequences, and really BIG BAD actions have consequences that can't be undone.

Buffy's sex with Angel: death of Ms. Calendar. Still dead.

Faith killing Deputy Mayor Fitch: go to jail. Still in jail.

Willow raising Buffy: dead Tara.

So how is ME going to bring us back to happy cheerful geeker Willow? "Hi, I'm your old shy, simple high school buddy who just happened to torture a man to death in a way that would have made Adolf Eichmann soil his trousers. But I'm much better now."

Would you be happy sharing a booth at the malt shop with little Willow who is presumably no longer bored? No matter how well-adjusted the magic of the writers has made her?

If ME tries to accomplish this, they put at risk all the internal rationality they've spent nearly six full seasons constructing. If they can do it and maintain their credibility it will be in my humble opinion the finest writing job on television for some thirty years. (Check out the old "The Prisoner" for comparison. TV meets Franz Kafka.)

But I don't think that they can. I think we've lost old gentle Willow forever. How can Buffy bring her back?

Speculation: I think the Buffster will have to kill her friend.

She can't do it in a fair fight. (Oh goody. Fisticuffs with a magic storm that swapped punches with a god.) So that leaves treachery or --

"No problem killing a witch, Buffy; you just do it when she's asleep."

It may be necessary. But can Buffy herself come back if she does what I think she'll have to? Is that the price of guarding the world with friends -- killing them when they're dangerous?

Thoughts -- am I too gloomy?

[> Re: Willow & Neil Young (numerous spoilers) you may consider mine future but its spec -- Dochawk, 15:51:59 05/15/02 Wed

Buffy doesn't kill humans, no matter what the risk is except in self-defense, so I don't think it will be Buffy. But, I agree with you, how are they gonna bring Willow. ever since I heard the spoiler I have asked this question. In addition, its obvious that Willow is now going to supercede the evil she has already done and go after innocent humans (Jonathan and Andrew, ME made damn sure to make sure that we knew they were in prison when Buuy/tara were shot). How can she come back fro that? I believe that Buffy/Xander will be able to forgive her much more quickly than we will be able to be (until yesterday Willow was my favorite character, its my contention that they alienated Willow/Tara fans much worse than they ever aliented Spike fans, there were always people reminding us that Spike wasn't what they though he was, nothing predicted this).

There is one character who could kill Willow if he deemed it necessary for world safety, Giles. But, we all know that AH will be here all next season, will she be the big bad? I doubt it, leaves us with the perplexing question, how are we going to believe that she is simple Willow again. your right, it willbe the best writers manipulation they have ever pulled off.

[> [> Things fall apart (spoilers through Villains) -- Vickie, 16:56:01 05/15/02 Wed

Great points, Doc. I doubt she'll ever be simple Willow again.

Remember what Tara said towards the end of Entropy?

"Things fall apart, they fall so hard...You can't ever put them back the way they were..."

ME knows this. And they know it would cheapen the entire story if Willow (or Spike or Buffy or any of our beloved characters for that matter) returned to the exact same state they occcupied before all of this entropy.

Willow may become "good" again. I hope so. But, as Buffy keeps telling her, not by making the pain and the evil go "poof." She can only return to us by walking through the fire, through the pain, and coming out the other side.

I don't see how. If I did, I could WRITE these stories and wouldn't have to sit back admiring Joss and the whole ME gang.

[> [> [> Re: Things fall apart (spoilers through Villains) - - Mike J, 18:52:52 05/15/02 Wed

I agree with this assessment. Willow will most likely be defeated, and brought back across the brink. She will never be the same, but on her path to redemption, she'll most likely become a new woman while being the somewhat same loveable person that we [well, hopefully] all adore. :-)

[> [> Re: Willow & Neil Young (numerous spoilers) you may consider mine future but its spec -- maddog, 20:18:23 05/15/02 Wed

So you're bailing on Willow because of this past episode?

Can you blame her? I know I don't. I'm with Dawn. Warren got what was coming to him. I feel bad for him, but he dug his own grave. He didn't even act sorry until she had him dead more or less. She's been battling the overuse of magic all year. I'm not surprised or shocked that when she wasn't allowed to bring Tara back that she went on a rampage. And we still don't know if she actually kills the other two.

I think we're all assuming here that she'll be treated like a big bad. I think that's a huge assumption. It's not like she's going on a random killing spree. I think they can sympathize. I think they will find a way to bring her down without killing her. I'm not condoning what she does. But she's not in the same category as the average big bad.

As for next season...the word that things would be back to similar to first season wasn't meant for the people...it was meant for the theme. It's impossible for 5 years to happen and keep everyone the same. People change daily, let alone over that many years. I think they'll be wiser because of what they've gone through.

[> [> [> Willow & bailing (numerous spoilers) future ? but its spec -- fred the obvious pseudonym, 14:10:26 05/16/02 Thu

Bailing on Willow?

I'm not an opponent of the death penalty in all cases. Warren certainly, under some assessments, qualified.

But to kill him THAT WAY and apparently enjoy the pain?

Sweet Willow?

Uh-oh.

Can you come back from inflicting that much suffering on another human? From delighting in it?

Houston, we have a problem.

[> [> Prediction & Willow (SPOILERS for Villains) -- Robert, 10:28:46 05/16/02 Thu

>> "... nothing predicted this."

Depends upon what prediction you are speaking of.

If you mean Tara's death, then I agree that no one could have predicted it (except through rogue spoilers). Her death was an act of random violence. If you are referring to Willow's descent into darkness, some people did predict this. Myself and a few others have felt that Willow did not fix her problems when she swore off magic in "Wrecked". I certainly had no idea of the speed and violence of Willow's descent, but I had the feeling that we had not seen the last of Willow's magic.

>> "until yesterday Willow was my favorite character, ... "

Willow and Tara were also among my favorite. It hurt greatly to see Tara killed, but it did not alienate me. I watch this show because it pushes and pulls me in ways I've never experienced before. The speed with which we can lose a beloved character, with no warning (except for rogue spoilers), is heart wrenching. No other TV show has evoked emotions in me like BtVS and Angel. Losing Willow this way is even more wrenching. Whether there is destruction or redemption for Willow in the future, I would not miss watching it.

[> SPECULATION and attendant spoilers re: Willow's redemption -- pr10n, 15:54:17 05/15/02 Wed

I was pondering this very idea. We don't trust Spike because at heart (pun jab) he is a killer, soulless, evil.

Can we therefore trust Willow because she is not really a killer, not really evil? Scoreboard: she seems to have evil killer attributes after all.

SO here's the speculatory part: Buffy Year One, OH SO LITERAL? One well-placed vengeance demon wish could put Giles back in the library, plunking the Vampyre book onto the counter.

And this would of course return Willow to the softer-side-of- Sears jumper, looking the way Buffy ripped her "costume" off in Relentless, which in turn is how Willow denuded^2 Warren in Villains.

Could Joss be bringing all things to Point Zero for a few eps next season? That would be a trick.

[> [> Re: SPECULATION and attendant spoilers re: Willow's redemption -- maddog, 20:42:53 05/15/02 Wed

Well yeah, but if you can see killer attributes in Willow then that's like saying we're all capable of those types of actions. We don't know what we'd do if pushed far enough...to our breaking point. Maybe we all have that killer instinct. It's not fair to brand Willow. Wouldn't you say her circumstances were extenuating anyway?

I think that is too literal. I think way too many people see that comment as saying the people are going to be the same as year one and I didn't get that out of the interview. I believe he was saying the theme of the show would be lighter than in the past few seasons...not the people. Because lets face it...they aren't the same as they were. Not by a long shot.

[> [> The problem with a "reset"... -- yez, 21:07:01 05/15/02 Wed

or whatever the term is for making it all like it was before things got too crazy is that, while the SG could theoretically be placed back in post-graduation state with a wish to Anya, the *audience* can't.

They can put Willow "back in fuzzy pink sweaters" (very funny ref., btw), but I don't see how anyone who saw "Villians" can laugh along with the cute nerd girl in the same way again.

Some speculation and puzzling out of things follows:

The thing is, though, that there's no evidence of Willow's. Even if Willow walked herself down to the police station and confessed, what are they going to do? "Uh, excuse me, officer. I'd like to turn myself in for killing a man by using magic to pin him and drive a bullet through his heart, while skinning him alive and them emmoliating him. That's right, all with magic. No, sir, there's no body, fingerprints or evidence of any kind. Witnesses? Well, here are my best friends who can testify to having seen something in the dark woods."

So, I don't think they'll incarcerate her, even though she is in the market for a new girlfriend.

Also, as Warren was killed by unnatural forces more or less, is it possible that Willow could bring him back and redeem herself that way? Or is it possible that Warren and Rak (sp?) had one final trick up their sleeves and that wasn't really the end of Warren?

I'm really, really, really hoping they don't turn this into an addiction thing again and let her off the hook that way.

yez

[> [> [> Re: The problem with a "reset"... -- maddog, 21:14:24 05/15/02 Wed

hehe, there's no addiction left...this is pure rage. There's no time for it to build back to addiction. This is more like mass magical abuse.

[> [> [> Re: The problem with a "reset"... -- pr10n, 00:43:34 05/16/02 Thu

Yeah -- I'm agreeing now -- no reset. Still, "In swoops Giles... blahblah." I just sold myself -- the reset idea lacks drama because, well, bored now, we've done that before.

Argh! In six days, two hours of bliss. Then, consoling myself by reading you people, and THEN, the Hell of Reruns. Must divert self.

Buffy Trivia question--I'd really appreciate help with this from anybody who might know... -- Rob, 19:03:27 05/15/02 Wed

I'm putting the finishing touches on my "Witch" page for the "Annotated Buffy" site, and one of the notes I need to cross- reference tto he episode where Xander first asks Buffy out, and she stands there, stunned, and tells him she's never thought of him that way before, turns him down, and his heart's crushed, etc. Only thing is, I'm drawing a total blank as to what episode that happened in...

I know I really should know this, being the insane Buffy freak that I am, but I cannot for the life of me remember this.

If anyone can just help me by telling me the episode name I would soooo appreciate it, b/c I would like to get these notes done by tomorrow the latest. Thanks so much in advance!

Rob

[> I'm not sure. I would guess Teacher's Pet? -- Ixchel, 19:08:28 05/15/02 Wed

[> It might be Prophecy Girl. -- Wynn, 19:11:45 05/15/02 Wed

That's the only episode that I remember Xander actually telling Buffy about his feelings for her.

Wynn

[> Re: Buffy Trivia question--I'd really appreciate help with this from anybody who might know... -- CW, 19:11:47 05/15/02 Wed

Prophecy Girl. After which Xander is shot down by Willow after which he goes home to listen to 'country music, the music of pain.'

[> [> Re: Buffy Trivia question--I'd really appreciate help with this from anybody who might know... -- O'Cailleagh, 19:16:39 05/15/02 Wed

Oops! Would you believe that there were no answers when I started typing???

[> [> [> Great minds not only think alike, they type slowly... -- CW, 19:28:49 05/15/02 Wed

[> Re: Buffy Trivia question--I'd really appreciate help with this from anybody who might know... -- O'Cailleagh, 19:14:29 05/15/02 Wed

Prophecy Girl. He then tries to get Willow to go to the Spring Fling instead, but she also turns him down so he goes home to listen to country, the music of pain.

[> [> Yes! Now I remember! Thank you, thank you, oh, and thank you! -- Rob, 19:25:28 05/15/02 Wed

[> [> Yes! Now I remember! Thank you, thank you, oh, and thank you! -- Rob, 19:26:55 05/15/02 Wed

Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- Darby, 20:16:20 05/15/02 Wed

Just rewatched it. Here goes...

Through the Spike-in-the-cave-with-the-Lava-Man (sorry, really obscure reference there), my wife was convinced that JM wasn't playing Spike so much as William. I'm not sure that I see it, but did anyone else come away with that feeling?

Was Willow unwilling to be seen torturing Warren, so much that it precipitated the "presto" moment? Through her friends' eyes, I think that she could accept the idea of murder as maybe not justified but at least forgiveable, but not so much the "playing." The "Bored now" comment might have been a last flash of sadism, as if to say to Warren, "Here it comes..."

[> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- OnM, 20:29:10 05/15/02 Wed

Question No 1 - No, he seemed mostly Spike-like to me, but I'll let you know more after watching it again.

Question No. 2 - Yes, I think so. There's still enough of pre-black-magic Willow present to feel some guilt at torturing someone-- even Warren-- in front of her friends. Also the quick end may have come because she feared Buffy would interfere, probably a reasonable assumption.

[> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- maddog, 20:34:55 05/15/02 Wed

I think he was playing Spike of early on. The one that wanted to be bad...to go after slayers...to be reckless...the one that Angelus hated.

I think Willow thought Buffy and co. would try to talk her out of doing it so she just finished him off. I like the reference to vamp Willow with the "bored now" comment. That was classic.

[> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- AgnosticSorcerer, 20:42:34 05/15/02 Wed

I'm not too sure on my feelings about Spike on that particular scene. To me, he seemed as though he had one foot in the real-world and the other in his own psychotic mind. He kept repeating such things as, "I bet she thinks she's better than me", making me feel as though he's gone insane with some emotion. Be it vengeance, melancholy, destruction, or perhaps even love--I don't know.

I do not believe anyone has mentioned this, but I'm sure someone has at least noticed it mentally. Willow's last line before she skins Warren is, "Bored now" and where have we first seen this ever-so-ominous and slightly-exhilirating phrase before? Of course, we've seen it when Willow made her first premiere as a big-bad as Vamp Willow.
"Bored now" was Vamp Willow's catch phrase and albeit Vampire Willow existed in an alternate reality it was a glimpse into a world where Willow was one bad-ass and in that alternate reality it was very much due to Vamp Willow's efforts that Sunnydale became a living hell. I just think it's interesting that in two different realities where Willow has gone bad, the world shook in terror... it says alot about the character.

But back to the question, I do not think Willow's quick skinning of Warren was to prevent her loved ones from seeing her atrocious (but very cool) act so much as it was to get him dead before anyone could interfere. At that point, she had enough sanity left to know who she cared about and who she couldn't kill (Buffy, Xander, Dawn, Anya) so before she was forced to hurt them in any way she completed her task.

On a tangent, what's up with Warren and that blonde gay member of the Triosk? (And why is it that no one can remember his name?!) I think Warren used the kid's unrequited love for him to make him his "butt-monkey" (Xander reference in Dracula, not homoerotic).

[> [> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- AgnosticSorcerer, 20:47:24 05/15/02 Wed

While I'm rewatching the episode...

I like the scene where Willow destroys or at least does serious damage to that big-demon-head-guy. If his entrance and presence was any indication of his power, it would take one powerhouse to take him out.

Someone made a mention earlier that Willow's blacked-out eyes were CGI. I think they're contacts. I'm getting a pair just like them. ^.^

[> [> [> Re: Willow's black-out eyes (Kinda OT) -- Alice, 09:06:14 05/16/02 Thu

I remember an interview where the actress playing Lyta on Babylon 5, whose eyes also went black when she was doing her big power-thing. Anyway, she mentioned that hers were contacts, and that they were very painful to wear ands they dried her eyes out. So I have great respect for AH if she is wearing contacts (which I suspect she is.)

[> [> [> [> Re: Willow's black-out eyes (Kinda OT) -- Mystery, 10:23:21 05/16/02 Thu

THAT'S who Willow reminded me of in those things! Lyta! Of course!

I was wracking my brain trying to figure that out. Thanks, Alice :-D

But eitherway, those lens do exist...www.lensquest.com. click on the MENU SFX/Theatrical. I believe the ones Willow wears are the Pinheads, the Black Scelaras, or the black mirrors. The Scelaras not only dry out quickly, BUT they're also pains to get in. I needed someone to hold my eye lids open. I SO need to own a pair of them tho, cuz they look VERY cool.

[> [> [> Re: Willow's black-out eyes (Kinda OT) -- Alice, 09:07:37 05/16/02 Thu

I remember an interview where the actress playing Lyta on Babylon 5, whose eyes also went black when she was doing her big power-thing. Anyway, she mentioned that hers were contacts, and that they were very painful to wear ands they dried her eyes out. So I have great respect for AH if she is wearing contacts (which I suspect she is.)

[> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- yez, 20:49:18 05/15/02 Wed

Agree with the poster above who said Spike seemed like early bad Spike, not William.

I'm still kind of unclear on what the rest of the SG saw and where they were when Warren went great-balls-o'fire. I need to rewatch, but I don't recall them yelling at Willow -- which would've seemed the logical thing to do at that moment, I'd think.

So that makes me wonder whether they round the corner, so to speak, while she's emmoliating him, or if they actually see him skinned.

Does she emmoliate him only after realizing that they're there? Does the bullet pierce his hear first? Is she trying to destroy the evidence? For the sake of the police or for the SG?

I'm wondering why we weren't shown a stronger reaction from Warren and the SG in the final moment. I was thinking of how powerful and awful it would have been to hear a final tortured scream or to have Xander or Buffy retching at the sight of the skinned Warren. I thought it was a really cool special effect, and just a horrible event, and I guess I kind of feel like it wasn't quite given its due. Just MHO.

yez

[> [> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- Traveler, 21:08:21 05/15/02 Wed

"Does she emmoliate him only after realizing that they're there? Does the bullet pierce his hear first? Is she trying to destroy the evidence? For the sake of the police or for the SG?"

Yes. Maybe. Probably not; the police are the last thing on her mind.

I'm wondering why we weren't shown a stronger reaction from Warren and the SG in the final moment."

Warren died too fast to scream (you know, shock from having his skin ripped off). The scooby gang was too horrified to say much before Willow disappeared.

[> [> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- LittleBit, 05:25:54 05/16/02 Thu

While Warren is telling Willow she's not 'bad' like he is, Buffy calls out to Willow. Warren then (the fool) tells her she's been 'caught', etc... which is when she says "bored now" and skins him. Xander looks horrified and says, "Oh my god." Buffy is horrified as well and says, "What did you do?" A beat. "Willow, what did you do?" That's when Warren is burned to nothingness, and Willow says, "One down," and disapparates.

It looks like Warren or what's left of him is dead after the skinning but not before.

[> [> [> Thanks. -- yez, 06:36:59 05/16/02 Thu

[> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- AgnosticSorcerer, 20:54:44 05/15/02 Wed

Warren and magick.

Was the only magick Warren employed the transference of a small part of his essence to the Warren robot?

You'd think he'd get more for that wad of cash he handed that sorcerer.

[> [> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- RichardX1, 20:57:43 05/15/02 Wed

I think that gooey transparent engulfing slime-thingy was also magical. Making something like that using super- science seems like it would be outside of Warren's unique area of expertise, namely robotics and technology. Unless it was nanotech.

[> [> [> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- AgnosticSorcerer, 21:06:44 05/15/02 Wed

Actually, come to think of it. It would make more sense for it to be magick opposed to science as he gave it a verbal command to function which would follow suit more with magick than science in the Buffyverse.

As I said, I'm rewatching the episode and what is with those doctors operating on Buffy. Willow just appears and commands them to leave and they do. She doesn't give them much inclination to her power, so why do they follow suit?

[> [> [> [> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- RichardX1, 21:09:04 05/15/02 Wed

1) She's radiating an aura of Creepy at this point.

2) She had the chutzpah to walk in on them.

3) "These aren't the droids you're looking for." Or, more accurately, "You will take me to Jabba now."

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Two Questions about "Villains," with spoilers. -- AgnosticSorcerer, 21:39:23 05/15/02 Wed

Ok. Mind running #3 by me again?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Luke Skywalker to Jabba the Hutt's minion -- pedant, 21:42:36 05/15/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Luke Skywalker to Jabba the Hutt's minion -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:17:21 05/15/02 Wed

The Star Wars reference is still lost on me. I'm not a SW fan at all. I tried watching the first series, but fell asleep at every attempt to watch them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Luke Skywalker to Jabba the Hutt's minion -- O'Cailleagh, 23:17:30 05/15/02 Wed

Its a Jedi mind trick...or in The Buffyverse, it was some Willow mojo!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exposition on the Star Wars reference (spoilers for Episodes IV and VI) -- RichardX1, 11:36:10 05/16/02 Thu

In the original movie (A New Hope), a scene in Mos Eisley (on Tatooine) where Luke and Obi-Wan are confronted by stormtroopers seeking a pair of droids (specifically, R2-D2 & C=3PO)

Lead Trooper: We're going to need to see your papers--

Obi-Wan: You don't need to see his papers.

Lead Trooper: ... we don't need to see your papers.

Obi-Wan: These aren't the droids you're looking for.

Lead Trooper: ... these aren't the droids we're looking for.

Obi-Wan: He can go about his business.

Lead Trooper: ... you can go about your business.

Later, in Return of the Jedi, Luke enters Jabba's palace and is confronted by the Hutt's majordomo, Bib Fortuna, who emphatically tells Luke that Jabba has refused his offer to bargain for Han Solo's life...

Luke: You will take me to Jabba now.

Fortuna (translated from Huttese(?)): ... I will take you to Jabba now.

Luke: You serve your master well.

Fortuna: ... I serve my master well.

Luke: And you will be rewarded.

Fortuna: ... and I will be rewarded.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Attack of the Clones Spoilers -- Cleanthes, 19:54:49 05/16/02 Thu

"Hey, wanna buy some death sticks?" Loser

"You don't want to sell me death sticks" Obi-wan

"I don't want to sell you death sticks" Loser

"You want to go home and rethink your life" Obi-wan

"I want to go home and rethink my life" Loser

Take it from me, this was the Star Wars movie the fans have been waiting for

"One down..." (Spoilers for "Villains") -- RichardX1, 20:40:16 05/15/02 Wed

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already on this board, but I don't have time to look through every message.

The title of part one of next week's episode, "Two to Go", implies an answer to what Willow meant by "One down..." Yeah, I know she's not thinking clearly, especially in the "who's guilty for what" department, but Jonathan and Andrew are technically not guilty, even by association, of Tara's murder (unless I'm really misinterpreting the law somewhere). In fact, had Jonathan been there, I get the feeling he would probably have done something to stop Warren.

But it gets worse. We're all wondering whether Willow would stop with just Jonathan and Andrew. Well, the answer is right there in the episode, in Willow's pre-execution rant...

She called Tara "the only person who deserved to live".

And she's going to have her vengeance, not only on Warren for killing Tara (and Jonathan and Andrew for knowing Warren), but on the world for letting her die. It's kind of a logical response (if you're insane with rage and Evil power) to Osiris' refusal to resurrect Tara. Especially considering how Willow answered that refusal.

[> Re: "One down..." (Spoilers for "Villains") -- maddog, 20:48:38 05/15/02 Wed

It should be interesting to see just who she singles out as being responsible. Could she even single out her own friends? who knows.

[> [> Saddest possibility -- Vickie, 21:38:08 05/15/02 Wed

If she figures out that she is, herself, ultimately responsible, that would be the saddest thing.

[> [> [> Re: Saddest possibility (S6 Spoilers) -- Darby, 10:28:01 05/16/02 Thu

And Willow may be responsible, if OnM is right and we're looking at the karmic balance of her resurrection spell. The problem is, from a writing standpoint, there's no one left to do that bit of exposition (or maybe THAT'S why we have to have Giles back...); Anya's expertise doesn't run into that area, and Spike, the logical candidate, is off cashing in his frequent biter miles...

[> [> [> [> Re: Saddest possibility (S6 Spoilers) -- maddog, 12:57:38 05/16/02 Thu

Doesn't mean they can't take her down without killing her. I'm just worried if she does bring the blame back to herself that she won't attempt suicide.

[> Re: "One down..." (Spoilers for "Villains") -- AgnosticSorcerer, 20:49:29 05/15/02 Wed

I don't think it was Osiris was the one who responded. Just a high-level demon responding on Osiris' behalf, unless its commonplace for Osiris to talk about himself in the third person.

[> [> Re: "One down..." (Spoilers for "Villains") -- RichardX1, 20:54:27 05/15/02 Wed

It's not uncommon (in sci-fi/fantasy, anyway) for uber- entities to refer to themselves in the third person as a way of announcing themselves, like "Who awakens Vector Sigma?" (which I know, it never said, but it makes sense) Or "Why hast thou summoned Tormak, Lord of the MheH'kTar?" (I made that one up)

[> [> [> Re: "One down..." (Spoilers for "Villains") -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:19:06 05/15/02 Wed

Indeed, but my friend, closed captioning agrees with me. ;o)

[> [> [> [> How so? -- RichardX1, 14:41:51 05/16/02 Thu

[> Re: "One down..." (pure speculation for the end of 6) -- JBone, 22:17:36 05/15/02 Wed

2 to Go could mean Buffy and Xander or another combination of Anya and Dawn. Personally, I lean towards Jonathon and the other guy, but I'm not really trusting my instincts at this point.

[> [> Re: "One down..." (pure speculation for the end of 6) -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:22:26 05/15/02 Wed

I think the "Two down..." reference is explicity referring to Andrew (ha! I rememberd his name!) and Jonathan, but her sights do not lock onto her friends until she kills both Andrew and Jonathan. Or perhaps the Scooby Gang take Andrew and Jonathan under "protective custody" and hence the reason why she turns on her friends? Or perhaps Willow dissipates into a simple vessel of pure power? Pfft. Speculation can lead a man to insanity.

[> Re: "One down..." (Spoilers for "Villains") -- Alice, 08:52:16 05/16/02 Thu

(Please forgive any mistakes I make in regards to what happened, as I won't see the episode till later tonight.)

It's possible Willow might blame Buffy, simply because Buffy lived where Tara died, which would not be an uncommon feeling. I can't imagine her even thinking about Andrew and Jonathon at this point.

I do agree that she's not going to stop with 'the two', whoever they may be. Unless of course she does end up blaming herself and kills herself or runs away in horror at what shes done.

"Bored Now" (Spoilers for Villians) -- Kira, 22:40:41 05/15/02 Wed

It seems to me that the writers are trying to tell us viewers something with Willow's "Bored now" line.
All season fans have been complaining about the lack of a Big Bad and uneven plot flow and the writers have been promising an end to the season that won't disappoint.
Is this the writers inside joke asking us if we're still bored at this point? That was my first impression as I watched the ep.

[> Re: "Bored Now" (Spoilers for Villians) - - O'Cailleagh, 22:53:53 05/15/02 Wed

I think its a reference to VampWillow, therefore the writers are telling us that Willow has always had the potential to turn evil. It all goes back to the episode "I Robot...You Jane" (I know I keep saying this, and one day I'll prove it! I will!)

[> [> Re: "Bored Now" (Spoilers for Villians) - - West, 00:05:32 05/16/02 Thu

Yeah, the bored line was a signifier of Willow starting to tap her evil potential. The same line was said by VampWillow in (I believe) Dopplegangland.

Not sure how it ties into IRYJ... But before I ask you to repeat it all, O'Cailleagh, I'll go searching around for one of these numerous times you've mentioned in before. ;)

[> [> [> Re: "Bored Now" (Spoilers for Villians) - - O'Cailleagh, 00:13:37 05/16/02 Thu

You'll find some of it on the spoiler board, about halfway down I think. If enough people want to read the rest of my theorising on this, then let me know and I'll be glad to post it.

[> [> [> [> Re: "Bored Now" (Spoilers for Villians) - - AgnosticSorcerer, 05:04:56 05/16/02 Thu

I agree with the previous posters who stated that it is a simply sign showing that Willow has always had the potential for evil (I mentioned this in another thread) and that Willow *is* the big bad this season. The warlock who gives trips out to magick-junkies even said in reference to Willow, "She's the new power".

[> Re: "Bored Now" (Spoilers for Villians) - - Darby, 06:09:31 05/16/02 Thu

My wife's theory is that this demonstrates that a vampire reflects the person that would be if the soul was gone, rather than the echo of their personality beneath the influence of the vamp-demon. As Willow descends, she is losing touch with her soul, and we're seeing hints of VampWillow.

Willow's fate and Dark Phoenix (spoilerish "Villians" on) -- CrookedMind, 22:59:41 05/15/02 Wed

I'm gonna date myself here . . .

Back in my teen years--before such thought-provoking shows as Buffy--the most cutting edge serial in existence was arguably "The Uncanny X-Men" comic. For those unfamiliar with the book and the storyline of the late 70's/early 80's this is likely to be kinda, "Huh?", but for those who read back then here goes . . .

The story arc that we're seeing here with Willow/Dark Willow/Vamp Willow is quite reminiscent of the "Dark Phoenix Saga" that came at the height of the X-Men's popularity.

For those who don't know the mag but who at least caught the recent movie, here's a quick capsule:

Jean Grey (a "simple" telepath/telekinetic in the movie) is by way of a freak accident imbued with the incredible cosmic power of the Phoenix. She becomes a force **way** beyond that of her fellow mutants, but hey, she's one of the good guys!

But the power of the Phoenix--much like the primal forces into which Willow has tapped--is so far beyond the ken and control of even the most noble human . . .

Enter a sinister bad guy who plots to overthrow the X-Men by hypnotizing Jean into believing that she's actually on the Dark Side (the Black Queen if memory serves). All well and good, Jean fighting the good vs. evil influences, except that we forget about the Phoenix, and it's dark side.

Putting Jean into the bad role unlocks a door and unleashes Dark Phoenix . . . a creature with a number of parallels to Dark Willow . . .

Anyway, back to relevance to our storyline. Much like Wil, Jean has to fight from here on out to keep the dark power inside her in check. When stress hits, the darkness can ascend. We all are following along, figuring "okay, big cosmic battle, redemption of Jean somehow by giving up Phoenix power, book back to a more balanced X-Men".

But then in a moment of the Dark Phoenix's ascendence, Jean/Phoenix devours a planet and thereby murders the inhabitants. While many of us didn't see it then, this sealed the fate of Jean Grey, because there was no going back. The deaths could never be undone, Jean's hands could never be clean.

Thus after a huge cosmic battle (outworldly protectors of the universe want to kill Phoenix/Jean to get rid of Dark Phoenix) in which her lover is struck down, Jean again becomes Phoenix (science mojo had been used to keep it supressed) and starts the curve back towards Dark Phoenix.

If you're with me so far, here's the tie in . . .

As Jean stands on the battleground after leveling the opposition, she tells her love that the darkness can never be washed away . . . the pull of the power and the hunger it brings are too much. And then she does what none other could do . . .

She drops her defenses and causes a disruptor canon to fire on her, leaving only dust.

I believe we're headed down the same path with Dark Willow. She is being driven by power she cannot control, and every minute strays farther from the mission of the slayer and the SG. And with Warren--even if he was a human monster--she's stepped over the line of what can be repaired. The blood on her hands will never wash off.

Thus I expect we're spiralling towards big throw down between Willow & the gang, with the gang not standing a chance. But then I expect "our" Willow--probably after she carelessly strikes down someone she doesn't mean to with the darkness (Dawn?)--ascending long enough to take her own life.

My apologies for a bit of rambling and incoherence here . . . it's late and I should be sleeping!

Comments?

CM

[> Re: Willow's fate and Dark Phoenix (spoilerish "Villians" on) -- O'Cailleagh, 23:08:40 05/15/02 Wed

All very good points, and well remembered too. Unfortunately, AH is contracted for next season so thats where the parallels would end it seems.

[> [> Ah . . . I can keep storyline straight, but the "contract realities" often escape me . . . -- CrookedMind, 08:04:09 05/16/02 Thu

[> Re: Willow's fate and Dark Phoenix (spoilerish "Villians" on) -- newmoon, 23:30:39 05/15/02 Wed

I see two issues in your post: 1. the darkness can never be washed away . . . the pull of the power and the hunger it brings are too much and 2. And with Warren--even if he was a human monster--she's stepped over the line of what can be repaired. The blood on her hands will never wash off

The first issue is related to the addiction storyline that bothered so many - because the SG never voiced the fact that the "addiction" was to the power not the magic per se. Apparently Jean/Phoenix didn't feel she could overcome that pull, but that doesn't mean Willow would feel the same. Perhaps it depends on whether the power in and of itself is seen as corrupting, or whether the power can be thought of as filling some hole in Willow's spirit or psyche. If it is the latter, the recognition of that fact might help her find some other way to fill it.

But setting that aside, I don't know if Willow's yet crossed an unforgivable line. Xander and Dawn are already leaning to the vengeancy side themselves, and Buffy is less concerned with Warren's fate than what it will do to Willow to take control of it. Giles took a (semi-)human life, and as a viewer I was disturbed but understanding. Willow is a more difficult case, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. She suffered a horrible loss that pushed her over the edge, but she also seemed to enjoy the killing. Giles seemed resolute, but not eager or pleased, in his killing.

[> [> Re: Willow's fate and Dark Phoenix (spoilerish "Villians" on) -- CrookedMind, 08:42:05 05/16/02 Thu

Apparently Jean/Phoenix didn't feel she could overcome that pull, but that doesn't mean Willow would feel the same.

I don't think any human suddenly filled with power of this magnitude (that seems to have a bent of its own) can "deal". Jean Grey could not simply excise the Phoenix, so she sacrificed herself. The only possible difference here IMO is if Willow can "amputate" the magic. I simply do not believe that after going where she has with the power that she can ever trust herself (or be trusted) to hold it in check. Just my opinion . . .

But setting that aside, I don't know if Willow's yet crossed an unforgivable line.

Yeah, everyone has thought or even talked killing Warren, and in a different context his death at the hands of a Scoobie or two would have been easily swallowed. But it wasn't "Willow throws a spell in desperation as he's about to kill Xander and accidentally kills him"; it was Willow ties him up, tortures and toys with him, then without remorse flays the skin from his body. Cold, calculated murder of a helpless human. Yes an utterly toady and loathsome human, but a living, souled being just the same. To me that's miles different from "a little vengeancy"; Willow suffered a lost and welcomed darkness into her heart to seek vengeance. She made a choice and as our writers have made clear again and again, she's gonna have to answer for it.

Giles took a (semi-)human life, and as a viewer I was disturbed but understanding.

Again, apples & oranges. Giles took the life of the Ben that elected to give Dawn to Glory to save his own existence. He took this life to close a gate and protect our world from an incredible destructive power, not unlike Buffy's choice to take Angel's life at the end of the Angelus story arc. Yes, Giles took a life and must live with that and atone for it, but on the cosmic scale it was a selfless act in service of The Light. Willow's murder of Warren did not close a hell-gate nor remove a great, uncontrollable evil from the world; it was purely self- serving.

Willow now walks on The Dark Side, and the classic redemption in such a storyline is sacrificing oneself for the greater good. I'm sure ME has something delicious planned, but darned if I can at this point see Willow "cleansed" of her actions.

[> [> [> Re: Willow's fate and Dark Phoenix (spoilerish "Villians" on) -- newmoon, 11:52:08 05/16/02 Thu

I don't think any human suddenly filled with power of this magnitude (that seems to have a bent of its own) can "deal".

You may be right. I've never read the X-men, and am going only by your account and by Willow's saga. But I hope you're wrong. I hope ME can find a way to convince us that Willow can find a way to deal - if amputation is the way, so be it. I hope the only answer isn't self-destruction. I'm reminded here of Angel trying to destroy himself and being stopped by the snow storm. Perhaps Willow must follow an Angel-like redemptive path. She has a role in the fight for good.

(from Psyche's site)
Angel: Look, I'm weak. I've never been anything else. It's not the demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man.

Buffy: You're weak. Everybody is. Everybody fails. Maybe this evil did bring you back, but if it did, it's because it needs you. And that means that you can hurt it.

Angel doesn't want to believe her.

Buffy: (pleadingly) Angel, you have the power to do real good, to make amends. (raises her voice) But if you die now, then all that you ever were was a monster.

Willow suffered a lost and welcomed darkness into her heart to seek vengeance. She made a choice and as our writers have made clear again and again, she's gonna have to answer for it.

I couldn't agree more. I guess I was trying to say that I think really horrible acts can be forgiven. Not that it's easy, not that the acts can be forgotten, not that the person ever gets back to where they were before. But that there can be a way to move forward, that she can answer for it without having to write her off to the dark side.

[> Re: Willow's fate and Dark Phoenix (spoilerish "Villians" on) -- West, 00:02:48 05/16/02 Thu

You make an interesting parallel... As a die-hard X-fan I was a bit dubious at your post heading, but I see some likenesses. Although, as newmoon mentioned, I don't know if Willow has quite crossed the same line... Phoenix killed an entire race of innocents, while Willow took the life of an evil man. Of course, vis a vis Faith, we know this can be a powerful trigger in the Buffyverse.

However, I don't think the parallel will go all the way. I do hope that the 'real' Willow will be her own undoing, but she won't die. She will be back next season and ME has already ended two seasons with big deaths of major characters, then ressurections. It just won't play again. I'm sure they've got something tricky up their sleeves.

So, until Willow slaughters the Asparagus People, it remains a loose analogy, in my humble opinion. ;)

[> [> Re: Willow's fate and Dark Phoenix (spoilerish "Villians" on) -- AgnosticSorcerer, 05:22:29 05/16/02 Thu

Was it not the fault of the Phoenix Entity itself and not Jean Grey's that the Dark Phoenix was "created"?

If I remember correctly (as I never read the comics, but I watched the original cartoon religiously), the Phoenix Entity turned into the Dark Phoenix not because Jean Grey became saturated with the hunger for power but because the Phoenix Entity became tainted and obsessed with the full range of human emotions particularly the ones we conceptually see as "dark" or "negative" (i.e. bloodlust, rage, hate, anger, jealousy, sadism, ect).

If my memory serves me properly and I am correct, this does not sit well with your analogy unless we return back to the myriads of theories on the nature of Willow's state. Has she been possessed by an out-side force? Has she become magick made manifest? Perhaps! The analogy between Willow and the Dark Phoenix can be reconciled if we view Willow as a human who became tainted and obsessed with the full range of magickal potential-- tainted and obsessed with the full control over near-omnipotent power?

So what do we have?

Dark Phoenix- The cosmic power of universe, a seemingly omnipotent being whose sole purpose is to keep the universe together tainted by the darker aspects of the human psyche.

Big Bad Willow- An ordinary human woman who has allowed herself to become consumed with the sheer power and seeming omnipotence of magick. Magick being the act or practice that taps into the cosmic [read as *primeval*] powers of the universe.

Meh. Did I just restate everything you said?

[> Blame the asparagus-people! -- Earl Allison, 02:58:39 05/16/02 Thu

Don't know if anyone will find this of interest, but I was a comic geek once, lemme flex those comicky muscles :)

I too was a die-hard Marvel fan back in the day, and I agree, one of the best storylines, bar few (like "Kingdom Come" or "Crisis on Infinite Earths") was indeed the Dark Phoenix arc.

However, and I don't know if you ever read it, there was a comic called "Phoenix: The Untold Saga" that showed us an alternate ending to UXM #137, instead of the breaktaking scene of Dark Phoenix destroying herself.

Basically, the Editor-in-Chief of the time, Jim Shooter, was being convinced by the writer and plotter of the book (Chris Claremont and John Byrne) to spare Jean, to let her live, at the cost of her psionic powers -- a psionic neutering, if you will.

Jim believed strongly that Jean HAD to make the ultimate sacrifice, not for what she did to the Shi'ar Battlecruiser, or her attacks on the X-Men, but for a single panel drawn depicting the (now infamous) asparagus people, just before the sun Dark Phoenix consumed went nova and destroyed them.

That panel was the main reason Phoenix was killed, rather than simply de-powered -- and I think the story arc was the better for it (until they ruined it with saying it was a molecular copy of Jean, and not her ...)

Take it and run.

[> [> Re: Blame the asparagus-people! (kinda OT) -- CrookedMind, 08:01:30 05/16/02 Thu

However, and I don't know if you ever read it, there was a comic called "Phoenix: The Untold Saga"

Never read it, but its existence is not surprising considering the uproar caused by the death of Phoenix.

There was another alternative ending written in the "What If?" series that Marvel built around all their big pivotal events. I don't remember the full storyline, but in the end Phoenix destroys the X-Men, devours the planet, etc. even after Jean was supposedly "fixed".

Jean HAD to make the ultimate sacrifice, not for what she did to the Shi'ar Battlecruiser, or her attacks on the X- Men, but for a single panel drawn depicting the (now infamous) asparagus people, just before the sun Dark Phoenix consumed went nova and destroyed them

Exactly! (Thanks for the correction; I remember now it was a star she consumed rather than a planet). That panel is burned into my memory . . . it was one of the most chilling images in comics up to that point. Which was my point in this . . . did flaying Warren--creating that visual-- take Willow "beyond redemption"?

I guess if AH is coming back for S7 (I simply cannot keep up with everything . . .) there must be some viable resolution that keeps Willow around ("normal" or "dark"). But nothing will erase the casual, gruesome execution she committed. I'll be interested to see how ME restores balance where Marvel did not . . .

[> [> [> Re: Blame the asparagus-people! (kinda OT) -- Earl Allison, 10:02:47 05/16/02 Thu

Personally, I don't think Willow crossed the same line, yet. After all, Dark Phoenix wasn't punished for destroying a Shi'ar ship-of-the-line, or driving Mastermind to insanity, but again, for killing innocents.

At this point, Willow hasn't killed innocents, so I think ME has the wiggle room to bring her back once they take her power away.

What she did was chilling, but not bad enough (again, IMHO) to be a point-of-no-return incident. Had she killed someone who had nothing to do with things, or a friend, I would agree.

Even with some of the spoilers I've read about what Willow tries to do (emphasis on TRIES), she may not cross that line.

And I did read the "What If" in question -- yup, she killed pretty much everyone when her powers came back.

Take it and run.

The Demon made me do it. Spoiler speculation on seasons end..... -- Rufus, 01:31:10 05/16/02 Thu

Last year I did a post that gave a guess as to what was going to happen...I was lucky enough to score the exact clip they used from Blood Ties to make my case. This year will be a bit different.

Demons, love them, hate them, Buffy has to deal with them, friend or foe. So far we have seen that not all demons are evil, except for vampires, who I consider a form of a curse...season one.....

Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.

The vampire is different from most other vampires in that they are a hybrid created not by mating but by a bite that infects the host, driving the soul out. With the exception of Angel, no vampire has a soul, only Angel has seemed to be able to do good readily. Then Spike got his chip. What happened then wasn't that Spike became a nice guy overnight, but he learned how to live among humans again. But in Out of My Mind, Spike was still trying to kill Buffy, still trying to get the chip out. His failed attempt led to the dream that had Spike discover that he loved his enemy. Everything Spike has done after that fact has been to try to make Buffy happy. Unfortunately his idea of love is a bit tainted by his demon experience of love. So is there a difference between a soul and a chip? I'll go to the Paley Festival again to show what Joss said about the soul.....

The Paley Festival, March 30, 2001

Audience Member: "I'd like to know what your definition of a soul is? And what distinguishes Angel from the other vampires, because it becomes clear from both Buffy and Angel that vampires have human emotions and human attachments. So is that a conscience? And then what separates vampires from humans if it is a conscience?"

JW: "Um, very little. (laugh) Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. So they can love someone, they can attach to someone, they can actually want to do things that will make that person happy in the way they know they would. The way Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on Buffy, is getting more and more completely conflicted. But basically his natural bent is towards doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as in most humans, most humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it. I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle."

Spike has been able to do things to keep Buffy happy, but all this started with the chip, it could very well end with the removal of the chip, or at least that is the fear of all the people Spike knows. This leaves Buffy unable to do anything more than use Spike for sex, leaving both parties frustrated at the stalemate of the situation. Then there is the question of redemption, I think everyone knows that I've been all for it, tried to figure out how they will do it, and now have only a few ways they can. First let's see what I think they are considering redemption, and for that the best quote was from

The word redemption should not be associated with Christian dogma and theology, where it is a concept with so many connotations. In fairytales, redemption refers specifically to a condition where someone has been cursed or bewitched and through certain happenings or events in the story is redeemed. This is a very different condition from that in the Christian idea.

In other cases someone is cursed and thereby forced to do evil and be destructive, without desireing to act in this manner. For instance, a princess has to kill all her lovers, but in the end, when redeemed, she will say that the curse forced her into such behavior, but that is now over. These are the main types of evil fate which befall a person in a fairytale and from which he or she is redeemed. Redemption Motifs in Fairytales by MLVonFranz

I know how many out there are Redemptionists but I feel that there may be too much importance placed on how Spike is redeemed instead of being happy that he gets there. I feel the writers are going to stick with some basic soul canon and nothing can be done but go with it. I listened to some of what Xander said in Seeing Red and I feel he spoke directly for the writers......

XANDER
Oh, like, "Say, you're evil. Get on me."?
BUFFY
Xander, you fought side by side with
him when I was gone. You let him
take care of Dawn --
XANDER
But I never forgot what he really is.
God, what were you thinking?
BUFFY
You're asking me that? Right, 'cause
your decision making skills have
really sparkled lately.
XANDER
I'm not saying I haven't made
mistakes. But the last time I
checked slaughtering half of Europe
wasn't one of them. He doesn't have
a soul, Buffy. Just a leash they
jammed in his head. You think he'd
still be all snuggles if that chip
ever stopped working?

Buffy then almost repeats what Xander said when she encounters Spike in the bathroom scene.....

BUFFY
(softly, honestly)
No. I don't.
SPIKE
Why do you keep lying
to yourself?
BUFFY
I'm not saying I don't have feelings
for you. I do. But it's not love.
I could never trust you enough for it
to become that.
SPIKE
Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy.
Great love is wild and passionate and
dangerous. It burns and consumes.
BUFFY
Until there's nothing left. That
kind of love doesn't last.

I feel Buffy has a fear that is fair enough, she doesn't want to have to kill another boyfriend gone bad. I don't blame her. Then there are things that the writers said in Succubus Club interviews that gave me a hint to how they feel about Spike and redemption....

SDK: Ah. We had talked a lot about Spike trying to do good, but ultimately he doesn't have a soul, and it's a constant struggle. His love for Buffy and what she was giving him back, even though it was often abusive, really kind of kept him on that path. But once she absolutely cut him off....in the previous week's episode you really see him start to turn there, where he tells her to get out.

SDK: Yeah, and you know, there's a lot of self-loathing too. I mean, on the one hand, he hates himself for what he did to Buffy by sleeping with Anya, and on the other hand he hates himself for feeling anything for her.

SDK: Yeah, and he sums it up when he says I can't be a monst.., er, it won't let me be a monster and I can't be a man. So he's stuck in this very gray area, where part of him, because the chip is suppressing him being able to attack people, he wants to help people, particularly Buffy, but the other side, he's still a soulless vampire.

SDK: Originally at the beginning of the season, or at the end of last
season, we had talked about this. That we weren't setting this up as
a healthy relationship. Quite the opposite. We were setting it up as an
unhealthy relationship. She's making a very bad decision.

C: But at the same time, I think people have been able to see healthy
things out of it. You know, come from it.

SDK: There have been glimmers, yeah. But ultimately she's never
really treated Spike as a person. It's been much more as a thing, an object.

SDK: Eh, ye-es [drawn out "yes" - you could hear the evil grin]. I
will go firmly "yes" on that one. And you know, it's also, we go back and
forth on that, because yeah she mistreated him? Ye-es. Was he also, as
much as he was being such a nice guy sometimes, he was not such a
nice guy other times. I mean, in "Dead Things" they say "oh well, he
was going to stop her from going to the police when it wasn't really
her." He didn't know it wasn't really her. And he wasn't stopping her because
he wanted to save *her* he wanted to save her for himself.

C: It's a very possessive love.

SDK: It is a very possessive love.

C: Doesn't make it any less real; it's real to him.

SDK: And does he do great, heroic things for her? Yes. But, you know,
he's doing it for *her*

SDK: Right, and back in 13, in "Dead Things" when they're on the
infamous balcony scene, you really also see, he is trying to control
her. He's trying to separate her from her friends. So, you know, as much
as you see the puppy dog look, he's also not playing fair.

I haven't liked the Buffy/Spike relationship as it has been shown this year, it was clear it was a sexual relationship that would eventually end and end badly. Spike has gone to Africa, and please don't tell me how he got there. He approached a demon for a restoration, he want's to show that "bitch" a change. So there are a few ways to go here......Spike gets the chip out to go back to kill Buffy for making him love her......or something else will happen. I go with the potential for Spike to become that real boy he commented about to Sweet's minion in Once More with Feeling. I still don't know for sure. Then there is the redemption thing, Willow and Spike and Anya can be compared here. David Fury made a few comments on Anya at the Succubus Club....

C: How are the fans going to come back from this? Fans are protetive of Willow.

DF: She could skin you alive.

K: Horrific and gruesome, not just killing him.

DF: You have to consider the fact, will be more clear when you see the last two episodes. This isn't Willow anymore. She is something not of herself. The same thing Willow did, Spike commited attrocities. Some people are forgiving of that. You blame the demon.

Back to the MLVon Franz comment.....In other cases someone is cursed and thereby forced to do evil and be destructive, without desireing to act in this manner. For instance, a princess has to kill all her lovers, but in the end, when redeemed, she will say that the curse forced her into such behavior, but that is now over. The demon or monster state that Spike, Anya, and Willow are currently in is something that is not them entirely, we know that part of them is what they once were, but the demon causes them to do horrible things, once back to their former state, they are redeemed, not in the Christian way but they are now free from their cursed state. This is how we will be able to live with any of these characters if they return to who they were before becoming demons. Also I will add Buffy's talk to Dawn about Willow....

Buffy: We can't control the universe. If we were supposed to ...then the magic wouldn't change Willow the way it does. And....We'd be able to bring Tara back. And Mom. There are limits to what we can do. There should be. Willow doesn't want to believe that and now she's messing with forces that want to hurt HER....ALL OF US.

Some people may not be happy with what happens but it does make sense to me. First they have a vampire with a soul, they have established that he can be evil, but his preference for good should win out. It also goes with what I think about the mythology and fairy tale roots of the show when it comes to their story and demons. Willow can be redeemed by removing what darkness she consumed, Spike can be redeemed by becoming human (but a new struggle will begin) if they do that, and Anya is only a monster while a vengeance demon, once back in human form she is no longer responsible for past actions. Love it or hate it that's how I see it from the shows, the interviews and transcripts. I still love this show. I just say keep bringing the stories on. Oh and the reason I didn't mention Xander....well some things will just have to wait.

[> My guess from last year season finale The Gift and OnM's 11th hour post..... -- Rufus, 02:14:02 05/16/02 Thu

I just love good speculation this is just a few from last May before any Wildfeed....

Blood Ties....spoilers for The Gift -- Rufus, 17:47:24 05/16/01 Wed

One of the most important conversations happened in Blood Ties when Buffy rescued Dawn from Glory...

Buffy: "Are you all right? Did she hurt you?

Dawn: "Why do you care?"

Buffy: "Because I love you. You're my sister."

Dawn: "No, I'm not."

Buffy: "Yes, you are. Look."

She takes Dawn's hand. The cut across her palm has opened up during the fight.

Buffy: "Blood. Summers blood."

She takes her own hand, smears blood on it from her shoulder wound, holds it up.

Buffy: "Just like mine."

Buffy presses her palm into Dawn's, mixing their blood.

Buffy: "It doesn't matter how you got here or where you came from. You are my sister. There's no way you could annoy me as much if you weren't."

It doesn't matter where Dawn started, it only matters that she is now Buffys sister. Belief can be a very strong motivater. It motivated the Knights to search for the key to destroy it, and , it motivated the monks to try to preserve the key because they believed that the key could be used for the forces of light. Now Buffy believes Dawn is her sister. You can see how strong those memories are when Willow saw Joyce bring Dawn home and Buffys reaction of first jealousy then the need to protect. The Guide said that Buffys love was brighter than the flame...can that mean also stronger than the light of a god? Whatever Buffy does next week will come from the belief that Dawn is her sister and the love she feels for Dawn. If Buffy sacrifices herself for Dawn I feel it will be out of the belief that if the blood of a Summers girl could open the portal, then the blood of a Summers girl can close it. Then I think the gift will then be revealed. Doc said the DNA was strong.***
**********************************************
The 11th Hour nears! - Cast your vote for the Final Speculation! -- OnM,
21:16:26 05/21/01 Mon

OK, it's 10:45 PM here in the Eastern US as I start writing this post, so
it's less than 24 hours to the great
whatever (a little more for those in the Western regions). So I'm sure
everyone has an idea as to what will
go down, now's the last chance to cast your vote, express your thoughts,
start a marathon of all the
previous eps and look for more clues (if I was still in my 20's, I might do
something that outrageous, but I
have only so much energy to go around, and so I'll have to make do with
working off memory!) or of
course just go to sleep. Your call!

To make posting easier if one of the options listed below suits you, we will
employ handy identifying
letters. Item A is my current choice, I'll elaborate below on why, but this
way those who like shorter posts
can get right to the poll thing.

SPOILERISH SPECULATION FOLLOWS FORTHWITH:

A > Buffy and the Scoobies plan a basic attack against Glory, but Dawn's
bloodletting starts anyway, and
now Buffy is faced with killing her sister to stop the dimensional
breakdown. At the last minute (or two or
three) she realizes that she shares the same blood as Dawn, and decides to
kill herself to save Dawn and the
universe from extremis hellaciousness. Problem is, one, she is told by Giles
that she can't take her own life,
the spell doesn't work that way, she must have someone kill her, and two, of
course none of the Scoobies
would be willing to kill Buffy. We are now really down to the last minute,
and Buffy suddenly realizes that
there is someone who would kill her-- Spike. He does so-- after realizing
that he really doesn't want to,
despite all the past history between them-- and the portal closes, Dawn gets
rescued, everybody's in shock
over now-very-dead Buffy, and then Giles, who has obviously planned for just
this possible horrific
contingency, brings forth some magiky accouterments and casts a spell--
Buffy comes back to life, and
Giles dies in her place. More shock etc. Later on, the closing shot of the
survivors looking at a tombstone,
on which the epitaph states "She died to save the World". The grave is Joyce
Summers'.

B > Same as 'A', but someone other than Giles dies to save Buffy. Willow?
Xander? Anya? You pick.

C > Same as 'A' but Spike vamps Buffy. Buffy is therefore dead, but will of
course rise again as a vampire
in Season 6.

D > Same as 'A' but the Key restores Buffy to life, leaves Dawn behind in
her familiar corporeal form, and
goes it's merry energy-like way out into the universe.

E > Similar to 'A', but Buffy and Giles plan a scenario similar to what Mary
Elizabeth Mastrantonio's
character did in 'The Abyss' when she and her ex-hubby were trapped in the
submersible with only one
diving suit-- she plans to die in order to close the portal, and have Giles
bring her back.

F > Buffy has Willow place some of her (Buffy's) blood inside the BuffyBot,
cast a spell to make the Bot
momentarily human, and has the BuffyBot die to close the portal. Willow gets
a truly wicked month-long
headache from this one.

G > The whole thing is a time loop, and Buffy needed to make the decision to
allow Joyce to die (in the
'incorrect' timestream, she come home a little earlier, and saves her
mother, as a result of which Glory
eventually wins). 'Groundhog Day', with thanks to thoughts by Tensai at the
C&S board).

H > Doc turns out to be a 'good guy' who pretended to be evil, and he
defeats Glory and saves Dawn and
Buffy and the universe at the last minute.

I > Same scenario as 'A', except no one saves Buffy after she dies. Show
ends with the tombstone shot,
but it's Buffy's grave, not Joyce's. The show ends. A:tS starts up, finishes
the Pylea arc, but everyone's
back to L.A. by the 3rd act. Angel finds out that Buffy is dead. He goes to
Jeeves (*The Trial*) and points
out that he never got to save anyone, even though he succeeded in his tests
of valor. Jeeves brings Buffy
back to life.

J > By whatever means, Buffy ends up dead at the end of the show.
Cliffhanger until Season 6, since we
know there is no way you can have BtVS without B.

K > It's all a dream in Faith's head.

L > None of the above. Your theory goes here.

*******

OK, why I picked 'A'--

Let's face it, if you really want to stir up the fans, having Buffy die--
really die-- would certainly do it.
Even though she died once before in Season 1, the stakes are higher here--
it's not just Earth at stake, it's
the whole damn universe. There's Dawn, and the fact that Buffy promised her
mother she would look after
her, and at its most fundamental level, Buffy has now moved on to become
effectively Dawn's mother.
What parent wouldn't give his/her life for their beloved child? This is also
why Giles gives his life for
Buffy. I'm still going with Giles here (it could be any one of the other
scoobies, given the proper magick
mojo, (especially Willow), but Giles is the parent figure, there are far and
away more clues that point to his
death in *Restless* than any of the other scoobs, also the 'farewell speech'
he gave to Buffy in *Spiral*,
even though he didn't die just then, it seemed pretty darn foreshadowy to
me. Then there was Marti
Noxon's statement about Buffy not having any parent figures in S6. Yes,
Giles could just leave, like go
back to England, but that isn't anywhere near as angsty, right?

I didn't put this in 'A' cause it was already long enough, but I think Glory
will be defeated when Ben
momentarily reasserts himself, and Giles kills him, thus sparing Buffy the
further dilemma of killing yet
another 'innocent'.

I threw in the Spike killing Buffy part because I love the irony that all
his unlife he has longed to kill
Slayers, now finally one is actually *asking* him to do it, and he can't
bring himself to do it because he's
fallen in love with one. But in FFL, it was foreshadowed when he spoke of
the 'death wish and that when
that happened with Buffy, he would be there to 'slip it in' (suggesting a
knife image, btw, and we already
know that there is going to be a bloodletting involving Dawn, which
certainly suggests some kind of knife).
Also, he has stated in the past that he 'likes the world the way it is', and
also that he would die to save
someone he loves, and he seems, peculiar though it may be, to love Dawn.

Finally, the tombstone of Joyce Summers, and why the 'She died to save the
World' epitaph-- if Joyce
hadn't died, Buffy would not have formed the bond with Dawn to the level
necessary that she would
eventually sacrifice her life to save the world-- she would have given in to
the 'death-wish' that was
illustrated in *Weight of the World*, and Glory would have won. The child
becomes the parent when the
parent is gone. Joyce's gift was to make Buffy what she has become today.
The Slayer draws strength from
pain, and she is full of love.

*******

My thanks to everyone here at ATPoBtVS and at the Cross & Stake spoiler
board for many of the
thoughts and insights that I used to help put these ideas together. Special
thanks from yours truly go to
Rufus and rowan for their excellent insights on the relevance of the 'Blood
Ties'ep. Greatest thanks of all
go to Masquerade and Angel X for these great boards! (OnM genuflects in most
humble, appreciate
manner).

Tomorrow (or soon thereafter, for those outside N.A.) we shall see if the
Truth is In Here. The aliens
outside have considerately allowed me to catch tomorrow's eps before
finishing their abduction of me and
the Evil Clone. One of them confesses to having the hots for Anya, I'm
keeping an eye on him/her/it.

OnM

OnM, what you coming up with this year?

[> [> Hee hee hee... Now *THAT* was *FUN* ... :-) :-) -- OnM, 07:40:26 05/16/02 Thu

Oh, thanks so much for that Ruf, that was a delight to revist your/my guesses again! I'm frankly shocked at how close I was on a number of things, but I had completely forgotten about predicting Giles killing Ben/Glory to spare Buffy. Little chill down the spine reading that one!

(For the benefit of those reading this now, the only 'spoilage' I had of 'The Gift' was the 'tombstone shot', but that spoiler had come like four months or so prior to the actual last ep airing, so I gave it very low credibility).

I will definitely do another '11th Hour' post this year, I am 98% unspoiled for the last two eps, and the 2% is so cryptic that it's pretty much useless, much like the promo stuff.

Look for it sometime this coming Sunday night, I would guess. Maybe I'll include it as part of the weekly ep review, or maybe not-- have to see.

OK, now right up front this is an ego trip thing, I make NO effort to disguise it as anything else, so take that into consideration, and feel completely free to disagree with me and go for the 'L - Your Theory Goes Here' option.

If I was the 'Gift' writer, I would still pick 'A'. Nothing against ASH, he has a great character and I would miss him very much if he had left the show this way, I just like the parent sacrificing for his/her child motif-- maybe because my parents gave up so much of themselves (although very fortunately, not their literal lives) for me when I was a child. Thus, the particular resonance of the tombstone for Joyce Summers-- her act was nothing overt, just a simple (?- oh yeah?) matter of who she was and her love for her daughter.

So, if YOU were the writer of The Gift, what option would you pick?

You may, of course, choose the exact one that ME did. Post 'em if you've got 'em!

[> [> [> Since I started posting soon after the Gift aired... -- Cactus Watcher, 06:11:01 05/18/02 Sat

I could lie like a dog. But, the fact is that I'd been studying the question pretty hard from a literary structural stand point before the episode, without ever seeing OnM's post. I came up with a variety of senarios, none of them as clever as OnM's for how Buffy could survive. But, the only one that made any sense whatsoever was that Buffy's 'gift' was not her own death, but allowing Dawn to be the hero and die. In a story like that, Buffy would come to the understanding that there were limits to her power and that she was not meant to always be the hero; that being brave some times transends conventionality and the even needs of family. The reaction I got to even hinting around at that last summer was so strongly negative, I almost gave up posting before I got really started. People were certainly not ready for that kind of discussion let alone that kind of story.

The only other viable possibility I could see from what had come before was that Buffy would be dead at the end of the episode. Once "The Gift" started it was not only blatantly obvious that Buffy was going to die, but that she was, in fact, determined to die. People really got horrified afterward, that others might think the 'wrong things' about Buffy. We saw a lot of essays on why Buffy's death was not suicide. The real point is the Joss doesn't care what any church would think of Buffy's death. He gave her a hero's death, and that's all that mattered.

A final shot. Buffy's death did not save the world. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? But, it's true. Don't get me wrong. She saved 'a' world. But, no matter what she did, Buffy could not save both the world she grew up in and the one that included Dawn. Either Dawn was a fraud, and the old world had to be saved, or Dawn was real and the new world had to be saved. By saving Dawn, Buffy denied and destroyed the world that didn't have Dawn grow up in it. The way Joss' story played out, what Buffy did do was affirm Dawn's right to be a human, affirm that Dawn was more than just a mystical door opener. I think I can safely say, most fans were happy with her choice.

[> [> [> [> very interresting way to look at it -- Ete, 12:04:26 05/18/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> Almost gave up posting? Now that *would* be an evil end to the season! -- OnM, 15:11:47 05/18/02 Sat

I really like your last paragraph, I've never thought about it that way, but it makes sense.

While I was hoping that Buffy wouldn't die in the S5 finale, I did know for certain that she would as soon as the program started, what with the cascade of clips unspooling at an ever more rapid pace, with musical suggestions of the Beatles 'A Day in the Life' firing up in the background. The only question then was the matter of the details.

In The Weight of the World, Buffy made it very clear that it was going to be either/or, no shades of gray as to Dawn's ultimate fate. Either Dawn dies, and Buffy's soul is shattered, rendering her useless as a future Slayer, (the 'guilt loop' she was stuck in was certainly an apt visual metaphor for this) or Buffy would have to die to save her. She reaffirmed this with Giles in The Gift. Again, it was a matter of the details.

You idea that Dawn could die was perfectly reasonable, and the reasons you cite the same, but I discounted the possibility because of the above mentioned aspects of Buffy's personality/morality. It's also related to the parent/child relationship that's been established even further this season. Buffy is increasingly Joyce-like, even down to the suggestions of hairstyle shown in Villains. Buffy was 'the parent', even in The Gift, she would never sacrifice her 'child' in her place. So, either they both died, or only Buffy would die. The third alternative, while logical, lacks 'heart' for want of a better word, and I don't think ME was looking for that message to be sent.

Besides her 'death', Buffy's other gift was the ability to go with her 'heart' rather than her 'reason', and the PtB seemed to expect that she would, thus the 'epiphany' about the 'blood ties'.

I too was surprised about the amount/tone of discussion as to Buffy's 'suicide', it never occurred to me even once that her decision was anything less than heroic in nature. I also noticed that there was very little comment about Dawn's willingness to kill herself, which she was plainly intending to do to save the world after the portal had been opened. The peach doesn't fall very far from the tree, it seems.

Oh, well...

[> [> [> [> [> Evil thoughts (vague spoilers for Seeing Red) -- Cactus Watcher, 18:00:39 05/18/02 Sat

Yes, it's pretty clear blood ties and 'parenthood' was the intent. But, I was trying to think of an excuse why Buffy wouldn't have to die. Given the way the story was structured it probably was not workable. But, it seemed the only alternative.

I have grave personal objections to encouraging people to go with their feelings instead of reason. But, that has nothing to do with the story of 'The Gift' I would suggest, however, that this is one difference between Buffy and Willow as 'Seeing Red' unfolds. Willow is running on feelings, bolstered and distorted by black magic. Buffy is trying to use her reason, which has been affected by her experiences with Faith and with death itself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, reason's a funny thing... -- OnM, 21:31:42 05/19/02 Sun

Maybe that's why Buffy is the messianic figure-- only messiahs get to trust their feelings. The rest of us should bow to reason whenever possible.

Of course, what if reason dictates not trusting the messiah?

Uh-oh...

;-)

[> [> [> [> Fascinating idea, Cactus Watcher. That Buffy chose a world... -- Ixchel, 19:46:30 05/18/02 Sat

And gave Dawn her humanity? That the old world died and the new world was born through her act? Buffy is both a creator and destroyer of worlds (as perhaps she was in NA)?

I believe that Buffy's death was a hero's death (as it was in PG). I also believe that her act was both self sacrifice and suicide at the same time (if such a thing can be quantified maybe 90% self sacrifice and 10% suicide). I completely understand why some wouldn't agree with this intrepretation though. Many actions contain mixed motives and emotions, this doesn't degrade a brave and heroic act (IMHO).

Again, really excellent post.

Ixchel

[> Cutprint Rufus - but generally agree with you -- shadowkat, 06:45:13 05/16/02 Thu

Will comment with how the metaphors from Season 5 - now
back you up soon.

[> Re: The Demon made me do it. Spoiler speculation on seasons end..... -- ramses 2, 07:41:09 05/16/02 Thu

Wow, rufus I was coming at the season with a completely different take. Now, I have to rethink. I was sure that Spike would remain just as he is. Maybe with the chip out, but still unsouled vamp. Why? Well, I was looking at the season as being Buffy's story. Buffy as Bodhisattvas. A hero on an inner journey to remember herself.(The slayer)Along the way she must fight the threefold fire of desire,hostility and delusion. (Spike, Slayer, Dawn, NA)Once these are controlled, not extinguished, our hero/saviour is allowed to live amongst the people.
I saw the over the top reactions(beating, attempted rape) as metaphors for unbalanced ying/yang. Buffy unbalanced because she doesn't know who she is. This season has been full of Buddas and hand symbols. Buffy represents the right, strength, moral and physical. But without love(emotions) that strength is dangerous. Doing right even when it's wrong is not justice.
Spike represents left hand, weakness and love.(The upturned left hand under the cake plate TR)Without moral restraint we get attempted rape. They are both unbalanced.
So why do I think, Spike's not going to get a soul? His story has been mirroring Buffy's. After the beating, we all we're shocked that he would just go to her and act as if nothing had changed. Villians has Buffy go to Spike to protect her sister. And it shows her missing him.
This season they told us we would discover what was wrong with Buffy. Well, we did. Nothing. Nothing's wrong with her. (Except for the fact that she doesn't know what normal for her should be. And she is afraid of finding out.)
And now we have the big drum roll about Spike. He's in Africa. We've had all the seasons hints. Someday he'll be a real boy. If my heart could beat. All the soul talk. The trust talk.
Nothing will happen. Spike needs for nothing to happen. He hasn't come to a dead end. The utter remorse he showed throughout SR,(Dawn having watched him and Anya, hurting Buffy) shows just how far he's come. Give him a soul and you're taking away his story.
And let's look at the soul talk. Buffy's trust speech, like the beating, and the hurting me speech, we're directed at herself. It is directed at the Slayer. Buffy trusts Spike. She doesn't trust what she is. That's why the balcony speech seems so creepy. Spike is voicing her thoughts. When Spike calls her animal, or questions, is that the kinda girl you are, he is hitting close to home. It is the left side, love trying to find it's balance. It's strength. But Buffy is to afraid to find out. She just wants to be normal.
Back to souls. If the writers are really going for this, why Xander's speech and Warrens? Was it just me, or did Xander's speech ring flat? Very flat. Dog on a leash? A vicious dog on a leash is still dangerous. No one forced Spike to help. To do good things. And we've been seeing him do these things apart from the buffy factor. Save Xander. Help Anya. Make friends. I took that scene as foreshadowing Xander's lesson. Souls aren't the free pass ticket Xander always believed they were. Because of this view on souls, a dear friend will die. Xander and Buffy have comfortably viewed the trio as just scamps. They're humans. When the camera is discovered they comfortably assume it's spike. They don't want to question their views on good/evil. on souls.
And then we have Warren's speech. Two souls is what it's all about. (Yuck) Are we sure the writers are really trying to tell us Spike needs a soul? Or are they trying to get us to see that a soul isn't everything. That maybe sometimes, there's more than a monster in the man.

[> [> Re: The Demon made him do it? **Spoiler speculation on seasons end** -- OnM, 07:57:51 05/16/02 Thu

Suppose Spike were to be made human again-- that is, 'unvamped'-- but not have his soul restored? We may be assuming that one will always accompany the other, but why should they?

[> [> [> But if the issue is soul -- ramses 2, 08:05:59 05/16/02 Thu

Besides isn't the whole argument really, what makes us human? I think rufus was saying that the writers feel a soul is necessary for Spike's redeemption. Make him alive without a soul and what do you have? Same spike but now he's of no use to her. Not even a decent sex toy.

[> [> [> Don't see "human without soul" happening -- -- Dyna, 10:00:14 05/16/02 Thu

I'm not sure it makes sense for any character in the Buffyverse to be simultaneously labeled as "human" and "without a soul." I'm not saying I buy the contortions the concept of the soul has been forced into by ME at times (treating it like an internal organ whose presence or absence is demonstrable comes to mind), but hasn't it pretty much been treated as given that when one "becomes" or "is" human, one automatically has a soul? And that the reverse is also true--becoming "other than human" means losing the (human) soul?

Like I said, I've never found the use of the soul in ME that compelling, but is there wiggle room here for the idea of a human without a soul? Relevant points might be:

- Darla was incredibly evil, but when she was brought back as human no question was ever raised about whether she "had a soul." It was treated as given that she did.

- No comment has been made about whether becoming a vengeance demon again means Anya "gave up her soul." Judging from the posts I've seen, lots of viewers have made this assumption, but their evidence is only what I mentioned above: it seems to be the convention. Nothing to go on, otherwise.

- What would that even be? Given that we know of no way to establish the presence or absence of a soul (the show has only been able to do it by (a) assuming every human has one and (b) expositioning the nature of the gypsy curse), on what basis would Spike or anyone else conclude that he did or didn't have one? This season has hit us again and again with the idea that having a soul is no proof against evil, so evil behavior/lack of conscience on his part would be, shall we say, less than compelling evidence. Would we be taking the word of the cave demon, who's clearly not a neutral party, but rather a strong advocate of the "evil" point of view? If he tells us Spike doesn't have a soul, how much credence ought we to give his words?

In any case, I don't think they'll go there, mainly because the questions a situation like that would explore aren't that compelling, and haven't really been raised that much. "Is it possible to be human and not have a soul?" or "Would a human without a soul be as evil as a regular vampire?" don't really do much for me, as far as questions go.

Questions that *have* been of consistent (and, I think, developing) interest over time in the Buffyverse are things like, "Can a being with free will choose to be good despite his/her apparent soullessness?" The idea that one can only be truly good with a soul is a Buffyverse chestnut that's past due for some deconstruction. Spike's story seems ideally positioned to do that. With all the references to souls and soul not-having as an indication of automatic evilness that have cropped up in the last few episodes, I suspect they're priming us to go forward in a way that troubles those assumptions.

My money's on Spike losing the chip and discovering that the feelings he's been attributing to it aren't, in fact, caused by the chip. That would put him in the same position as the other characters who've lost the thing they used to "excuse" their unacceptable feelings, and put him on the path toward growing up and owning who he is instead of denying it and remaining torn between his old life and the reality of what he's become.

[> [> [> [> Very well said, Dyna. I couldn't agree more. -- Ixchel, 10:16:01 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Well, back on an early AtS episode... -- Solitude1056, 10:33:52 05/16/02 Thu

Wasn't there the case of some kid who was, for all intents and purposes, an extreme case of Warren-itis? In I've Got You Under My Skin, the formerly-possessing Ethros demon tells Wesley and Angel (after being evicted from a young boy):

ETHROS DEMON
I am Ethros! I corrupted the spirits of men before they had speech to name me. The child was but the last among tens of thousands. One more pure heart to corrupt. One more soul to suck dry.

WESLEY
Well, chalk up one exciting failure. You didn't get that boy's soul.

(The demon laughs, low and bitter.)

ETHROS DEMON
What soul?

ANGEL
You know I'm going to kill you. Can't gain anything by lying...

ETHROS DEMON
Do you know what the most frightening thing in the world is?
(eye to eye with Angel)
Nothing. That's what I found in the boy. No conscience, no fear, no humanity. Just a black void. I couldn't control him. I couldn't get out; I never even manifested until you brought me forth. I just sat in him and watched as he destroyed everything around him. Not from a belief in evil, not for any reason at all. That boy's mind was the blackest hell I've ever known.

So, perhaps soulless human creatures do exist (in Whedon's world), but I'd sure never want to wish that sort of existence on any character I liked even remotely. Yipes.

[> [> [> [> [> Demon Poetry -- Malandanza, 10:54:19 05/16/02 Thu

As Ethan said in A New Man:

You know demons. It's all exaggeration and blank verse.
"Pain as bright as steel" things like that.

I think Ryan had a soul, just not a conscience.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agree with Mal on that one, I always thought that Ryan was a sociopath. -- Rufus, 14:25:47 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Further to that, Angel: Casefiles is out next month......... -- Rufus, 21:53:47 05/16/02 Thu

As it's like the Watchers Guide for Buffy, maybe we will finally get an answer in print on the Ryan issue.

[> [> [> [> Anya's Soul -- Dochawk, 13:32:14 05/16/02 Thu

I actually didn't think all demon's lost their souls, just vampires. But according to Fury yesterday that isn't true. He stated flatly that Anya is now soulless. I'll see if I can get the exact quote. All the transcripts are either Spike or Willow/Tara that are available so far. But he clearly said it (I commented on it in forum while I was listening)..

[> [> [> [> [> Furys comment on Anya -- Rufus, 14:32:11 05/16/02 Thu

C: Does Anya still have a soul now she is back with the chewy VD center?

D: I think not. As a VD, logically, based on our mythology, it seems logical she would no longer have a soul. No demons have souls and no vamps but Angel. I would say she has no soul and if you've seen her dance you will know what I mean.

DF made it clear that demons had no souls, but that didn't explain why some demons aren't evil. Look at Clem, the Prio Motu, and other demons who have integrated into human society. The only thing left to think is that the vampire as is a demon that is evil with only a few variations in their behavior. I also think that as a result of an infection that I consider it a curse, which goes with the fairytale idea that once humanity is restored the human is blameless for the demons actions, Angel isn't human, he may have a soul but is still a vampire, still cursed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> So what... she had a soul and then she didn't and then she did and now she doesn't -- Masq, 19:26:24 05/16/02 Thu

I argue on my site that she had a soul when she was Anyanka and she still does:

Does Anyanka have a soul?

Fury sounds like he's thinking outloud, and not very well. Anya's current position is a lot like Angel's. A demon with a soul. I think from her behavior that's obvious.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good points! -- Caroline, 21:23:21 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: So what... she had a soul and then she didn't and then she did and now she doesn't -- Rufus, 21:25:18 05/16/02 Thu

I agree cause he didn't sound that sure as he was speaking, he should carry around a book of Rules for the Soul when he speaks. He is very vocal about Spike and a soul, but I don't think he has thought it out with the rest of the demons. Add in the stuff from Cordy in Benediction where she says that "demon doesn't always mean evil in this dimension" (that's a paraphrase). So when I wrote up my thoughts I leaned a bit more on what Joss had said at the Paley festival. But in the end in regards to Anya, what Fury said didn't make sense.

[> [> [> [> Don't see "HumanSpike" happening. Don't want it either. -- VampRiley, 12:09:35 05/17/02 Fri

It just makes no sense. I like my Spike soulless and vampy.

VR

[> [> [> [> [> I'm with you, VampRiley, it doesn't make sense to me either (for various reasons). -- Ixchel, 19:53:37 05/18/02 Sat

[> How can you be both a monster and a man (and yet, isn't everyone ?) -- Etrangere, 12:15:38 05/16/02 Thu

Ok, i just wrote one of this long post and erased it by mistake. I hate the clear button. Ahem.

The most interresting thing in the Gift was how they resolved the moral dilemna about killing Dawn (losing innocence, killing their own child) or letting the world end. The Gift was ofcourse a third way, and I think that's what we should be looking forward too for this finale.

Before S6, the limit between the monsters and the humans was clear. That barrier came to an end because of the Key, as shown with the growing alikeness of Ben and Glory. With the sacrifice of Buffy, renewed in Bargaining by the dismembering of the Buffybot a new order of the world was created, were the limits between the demon worlds and the men worlds weren't the same.
While S5 shown us the concept of humanity progressivly conquered by the "monsters" (Tara discovering she was not a demon, Anya finding a place in the world, Dawn being accepted as real by her family, Spike being treated like a man by Buffy even though he wasn't one), S6 showed us an inverse motion of humanity discovering its own monstruosity, the scoobies learns about their inner dark impulses, their main opponant are humans, and Anya and Spike tries to go back to their Evil roots.
So the main question that the final must answer is about this, how can this wild, monstruous side co-exist with the nicer caring side in a same being. Is there a merging possible, a center to be found or, like the Buffy-bot, will those opposite driving urges tear apart the characters ?

If someone was a symbole of centrality, of balance and synthesis this season, it was Tara. No wonder that once she is killed, "the centre cannot hold", and things are, indeed, falling apart. Or is it the occasion for the characters to find their own center, their own unity ?

I think since OAFA that a key concept to resolve this season is the idea of Forgiving. Without forgiving, forgiving of the others and forgiving of yourself, you can't keep going. You are stuck into the insane repeating circle of vengeance, in the karmic logic of violence leading to violence that the scoobies were in all the season. That was Tara's last legacy in Entropy.

No one will leave this season, this final, unscarred and unscathed, that's for sure. No one will be "coming back" from this. (and Warren was ironicly the first to warn us against this in Smashed)
But it isn't about coming back (for that would be getting back to the repeating circle), it is about coming through.
Coming through the fire and keep going to see who you've become in this melting pot.
It is about being aware that you're capable of both the worse and the best and only you are making the decision of what you're going to do next.

So how can they resolve this conflict, how can you be both a monster and a human, what kind of hybrid, rough beast, minotaure, does it make you be ?

I don't know how they're going to do it. I'm sure of only one thing, that they showed us over and over, especially this season.

Mutant Ennemy never goes the easy way.

[> [> Lovely post, Ete! -- ponygirl, 12:27:01 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> Nice job, Ete -- Dochawk, 13:36:11 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> Beautiful post as always, Ete. -- Ixchel, 16:05:17 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> A Hard way no one will like to see -- Goji3, 18:24:13 05/16/02 Thu

Hows this for "What he once was"

Why not have the Cave Demon release Spike's Inner-Demon - The vampric demon in a pure form, like Angel in Pylea. Although, I doubt this would work well, It would be unexpected.

Since Vampires are duelist in nature, He might be split in two. The Pure Demon and William (If this happens, I bet the Demon will Eat William).

Ah, Here's something no one will suspect, Spike FAILS in his attempt. He does not get his chip out, and has to pay a price for it. Like, he gets the chip removed, but also loses all the 'cewl powers' from being a vampire- and keeps all the weaknesses. Now that would truely suck for him.

But, I guess we'll have to wait and see...

[> [> [> Actually that he would fail might make some sense - - Etrangere, 00:38:52 05/17/02 Fri

I'm thinking about OMWF-as-a-template there. The trip to Africa obviously correspond to the "Dead End" Spike arrives to just before finding the way to the Bronze to save Buffy.
A dead end is hardly a symbol for a great achievment.
So maybe he will fail, and doing so, realise something about himself that will be the big change he was looking for since the beginning :)
How ironic.

But I like your idea of two Spike, very "Children of the Mind", unlikely for various reason, technical ones being primary :)

[> [> Fabulous stuff! -- Caroline, 21:25:10 05/16/02 Thu

[> Supporting Rufus thesis with the story(Spoilers through Villains!Spoiler Spec! Long) -- shadowkat, 12:33:28 05/16/02 Thu

This is in response to Rufus’ excellent post speculating on what will happen to Spike and why he’s becoming human. Rufus proves her points through interviews with the writers. I’m going to support her points with the story, because as Joss says, listen to my story not my writers. Also because I agree wholeheartedly with everything Rufus says. Like Rufus I am also a redemptionist. I also believe that ME is stuck with their soul cannon. And that the story operates like a fairy tale. It’s not going to be exactly the existentialist story some redemptionists are dreaming of, but it will still be a good story and interesting, if you give it a chance.

Before we talk about Spike, let’s talk about another cursed character:

Willow – by digesting the dark magic, Willow has become cursed. She has lost control, something else has taken over. This has happened before – go back to Becoming Part II – when the spell she uses to give Angel back his soul – takes over her body. She is speaking another language, the tone of her voice changes, her eyes glow, her formerly weak and tired body is suddenly energized.

Willow gets weaker as she chants and breathes heavily.
Willow: Return. (pants) I call on... (pants)
Oz: (worried) Willow?
Cordelia: (worried) Are you okay?
(Without warning Willow's head snaps back and she looks up with her eyes wide open. Her head snaps back down and her eyes stare into the Orb. She begins to chant steadily in Rumanian as though possessed.)
Willow: Te implor, Doamne, nu ignora aceasta rugaminte.
Translation: I implore you, Lord, do not ignore this request.
Oz: (to Cordelia) Is this a good thing?
Willow: Nici mort, nici al fiintei...
(Translation: Neither dead, nor of the living...)
Cordelia: (freaked out) Hey, speak English!
Willow: Lasa orbita sa fie vasul care-i va transporta, sufletul la el.
(Translation: Let this Orb be the vessel that will carry his soul to
him.)

That’s the first time it happens. When Willow uses it again in Something Blue – it takes on a mind of it’s own. Every time she uses the dark magic – it takes control of her. She becomes cursed. Buffy is right in Villains – when she states that the Dark forces are taking hold of Willow and want to do her harm. Look what dark magic does to Willow in Dopplegangland? It brings back VampWillow – Willow’s evil Doppleganger who talks and acts just like DarkWillow in Villains. The show also refers to this happening with dark magic in AYW where Sam says that shamans playing with dark magic got consumed by it – until there was nothing left. The character becomes cursed just like the fairy tales – Snow White, the evil queen’s use of magic curses her, in the Snow Queen – a shard of magic mirror causes a normal good boy to see only horrible things. In myths – magic also works in this matter – changing good characters into bad ones.

Spike is also cursed. As Rufus points out in her post – this is from Harvest, Second Epsiode of the series, Giles tells the gang, that when a demon feeds of a human and mixes their blood, the human becomes possessed, infected by the demon. Even though the level of possession appears to vary and not all vampires are alike. The rule remains the same as Angel states in episode 7 of Season 1: “When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy way to live.” (The same episode is referenced by Dawn’s shirt in Becoming Part I. )Yet, vampires can love – this is stated twice, once by the Judge in Surprise and again by Drusilla in Crush.

1. Judge: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.
(Surprise, Season 2 Btvs.)

2. BUFFY: It's called revulsion. And whatever you think you're feeling, it's not love. You can't love without a soul.
DRUSILLA: Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely. (CRUSH, Season 5, Btvs.)

But as Joss notes in Rufus’s quotes, they have no moral compass. “The way Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on Buffy, is getting more and more completely conflicted. But basically his natural bent is towards doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as in most humans, most humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it..” Hence Spike’s attempt to apologize to Buffy in SR results in violence, that’s the direction his nature points him in – he can’t help it. As Angel tells Faith way back in Consequences, Season 3, Btvs – without a soul, Angel had no choice but to create chaos, to kill, with a soul he has a choice. It’s our nature.

So where does this leave us? Well, starting with Fool For Love and going right through Villians, I have seen metaphors regarding Spike becoming more and more of a man. Some are in his actual dialogue, some are other’s dialogue, and some are just metaphorical.

Fool For Love
DRUSILLA
The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his birthday.
(In the past)

Several posters, including Destiney on B C & S board and I believe Etranger have discussed this quote. King of Cups is a tarot card and refers to a journeyman or noble knight and picnic is in daylight. Here’s the descriptions of King of Cups that I found on the learning tarot site http://www.learntarot.com/ckg.htm. : “The personality of the King of Cups is a combination of the positive water energy of the Cups suit and the active, outward focus of a King. He is wise and understanding, with a deep knowledge of the world that comes from the heart. He is a teacher and way- shower who guides his students with loving attention. He cares about others sincerely and always responds to their needs with compassion. He heals with a gentle touch and a quiet word. He is calm and relaxed in all situations, seeming to know intuitively what is called for at any moment. Others turn to him for advice because they know he will listen attentively. There is always a peacefulness around him that others respond to. He is tolerant of all points of view and shows patience in the most trying circumstances. He gives others freedom to grow and develop in their own ways without asking anything in return. In readings, the King of Cups asks you to take the kinds of actions he might take. For example: responding calmly in a crisis, using diplomacy rather than force, reaching out to help, or accepting a different point of view. This King can also represent a man or woman who acts as he does, or an atmosphere of caring, tolerance and understanding. In a reading, he tells you that his special energy has meaning for you at this time. Let yourself be inspired by this King in whatever form he appears in your life. And reversed: There are no separate explanations for reversed cards. The meaning of a reversed card depends on what the card would mean if upright. A reversed card shows that a card's energy is present, but at a lower level. For some reason, the energy cannot express freely, normally or completely.

It may be:
still in its early stages
losing force and power
blocked or restricted
incomplete
inappropriate
being denied
only present in appearance.”

This description reminds me of Giles in Season 1-5. Calmly responding to a crisis. Spike is currently the reverse of this card just as Ripper is. Picnic happens in daylight. Spike can’t be in daylight – big pile of dust? But if you turn the card right side up – Spike becomes Giles and the picnic is possible. Except timing must be right – hence the comment – but today is not his birthday. In Something Blue (Season 4, Btvs.)– Riley and Buffy discuss a picnic prior to her magically induced romance with Spike.

DRUSILLA
I have to find my pleasures, Spike. You taste like ashes.
(in 1998)

Ashes – refers to death. Vampires become ashes when they are staked.
Now he tastes like death to his undead paramour?

CRUSH

Again Drusilla states some interesting lines –regarding the chip and why I believe it’s irrelevant and Buffy:

DRUSILLA: All in your head. I can see it. Little bit of ... plastic, spiderwebbing out nasty blue shocks. (moves her fingers across his head imitating a spider) And every one is a lie. (Spike keeps his head bent) Electricity lies, Spike. It tells you you're not a bad dog, but you are.

DRUSILLA: But it's so funny. I knew ... before you did. I knew you loved the Slayer. The pixies in my head whispered it to me.

DRUSILLA: Poor Spike... (shot of Spike and Buffy staring at her) so lost. (tearfully) Even I can't help you now.

Drusilla – the truthsayer – states that the chip doesn’t keep him from hurting people, Buffy does. She tells him – you love the slayer not because of a chip but for another reason. Spike and Buffy believe it’s the chip that causes this.

Spike reminds me a bit of the cursed prince in Beauty and the Beast – Beauty can never love the Prince, because he is a beast. His curse is only lifted by her love for him, that love is what redeems him and lifts the curse. Sort of a catch-22, isn’t it? Buffy can’t love Spike because he is a monster, but Spike can’t follow a moral path without Buffy’s love – according to Joss, Spike does good things for Buffy, if he doesn’t have Buffy’s love there is no reason for Spike to do good things. The catch-22 strikes again. Beauty can’t trust the Beast. Buffy can’t trust Spike.

BUFFY I'm not saying I don't have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love.
I could never trust you enough for it to become that.
SPIKE Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. Great love is wild and passionate and
dangerous. It burns and consumes.
BUFFY Until there's nothing left. That kind of love doesn't last. (Quote courtesy of Rufus.)

Remember what happened with Angel? He left in Season 3, because he saw in a dream Buffy consumed in flames. (Prom, Season 3 Btvs) They had romantic love – it could not last. Spike’s love for Buffy is currently self-centered love. He feels good when she’s near. He feels good when he’s inside her. He cares about her as long as he can have her. Buffy uses him as a thing to make herself feel better. Her feelings towards him – are also self-centered. When he tells her that he went to the shop to get a spell – she immediately assumes it’s all about her. These are two very self-centered people who are using their passion for each other to make themselves feel better – which is why the relationship can’t work on either side. Metaphorically it looks beautiful but realistically it’s doomed. To work Spike must at some point come up to her level, be no longer a thing, be appreciated by Buffy as a separate entity, a man. Or else she will continue to use him like a marionette designed to do her bidding – ie: take care of Dawn, have sex with her, be her punching bag. When he strikes back, she rejects him. He finally gets this and takes off to Africa.

But before that happens we have all these nifty little hints about where they want to take him. Starting way back in Season 5.

The first hint is in Crush, in a scene with Dawn and then later with Buffy.

DAWN: (stops smiling) I'm not a child. (goes to lean against a pillar) I'm not even human. Not originally.
SPIKE: (sighs) Yeah, well, originally I was. I got over it. (Sits on the edge of a coffin) Doesn't seem to me it matters very much how you start out.

At this point, he doesn’t really care that he’s a monster – he’s still under the impression that being a monster is a good thing. But he does make the point that if you started out different than became human – it doesn’t really matter. What matters in his point of view and the writers is what you are now. This echoes Rufus’ point: “The demon or monster state that Spike, Anya, and Willow are currently in is something that is not them entirely, we know that part of them is what they once were, but the demon causes them to do horrible things, once back to their former state, they are redeemed, not in the Christian way but they are now free from their cursed state.” So Dawn can’t be responsible for what she was as the key – now that she is human, that is all that’s important.
Later, in this scene with Buffy, he states that because of his feelings for her, he is willing to change. She doesn’t believe he can without a soul.

SPIKE: You can't deny it. There's something between us.
BUFFY: Loathing. Disgust.
SPIKE: Heat. Desire.
BUFFY: Please! Spike, you're a vampire.
SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
BUFFY: Angel was good!
SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
BUFFY: What, that chip in your head? That's not change. Tha- that's just ... holding you back. You're like a serial killer in prison!
SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
BUFFY: Uhh!
SPIKE: (realizing that's not what he meant) But I'm not ... like that. Something's happening to me. I can't stop thinking about you.
BUFFY: Uhh. (turns away)
SPIKE: And if that means turning my back on the whole evil thing- (CRUSH, Season 5, Btvs.)

This comment is repeated again in Smashed, several episodes and half a year later. Except this time he states a “man” can change.
SPIKE: A man can change.
BUFFY: You're not a man. You're a thing.

He has begun to think of himself as a man, which indicates on a subconscious level, he wants to be treated as such. He is no longer interested in being the monster. When does this start happening?

In Intervention – when Xander confronts Spike regarding his relationship with Buffy. Spike comments on how she is upset about her mum and how he should comfort her, after all he’s not a monster. To which Xander states: “Yes you are. Vampires are Monsters. They make Monster movies about them.” Spike pauses, thinks a moment, and says, “Yeah, you got me there.” Prior to this episode in Forever, Spike picks wildflowers and drops them off for Joyce. He also helps Dawn and here is the first of many hints regarding the evil plans the writers have for Spike:

DOC: I know you.
SPIKE: I don't think so, mate.
DOC: No, no, you're that guy, that, that guy, hangs around down at the corner mart. (Spike looks confused) Big into dominoes, aren't you?
SPIKE: Can't say as I am. Look, we came here because- (stops because Doc is laughing)
DOC: That's crazy, isn't it? I mean, I, I, I'd swear, you were that guy. (Dawn looks nervous) I mean, your hair's a different color and you're a vampire, but uh, other than that... (Forever, Btvs Season 5)

The common misconception about this scene is that Doc is talking about Spike’s doppleganger. But what if Doc is a time-traveler or truthsayer? What if Doc has seen the future Spike and gotten confused? The scene by itself is quirky and to be honest I wouldn’t have thought much of it, if it weren’t for the hints in the episodes following it.

In The Gift – there are three sections referring to Spike’s status as a monster and possibility of change.

1.SPIKE: I know you'll never love me. (Buffy pauses halfway up the stairs, turns back to look at Spike. ) I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man. And that's...

Clearly it is important to him to be treated like a man at this point. He no longer wants to be the monster.

2.SPIKE: Well, not exactly the St. Crispin's Day speech, was it?
GILES: We few... (Giles goes past Spike as Spike gathers up the bag of weapons. ...we happy few.
SPIKE: We band of buggered.

This speech refers to William Shakespear’s King Henry IV – in this play, Falstaff is a lower class roustabout who is also close friends with King Hal. Drinking buddies, etc. Very similar to the character of Spike. Falstaff joins with King Hal to fight the French – and King Hal tells the gathered army including Falstaff – if you fight this war with me you will become my brothers, we will be family, forever joined by the battle. Spike clearly believes if he joins in this battle with the SG, he will finally be accepted as one of them. Of course – if you read King Henry the V, you’ll realize that good old Hal doesn’t keep his word and Falstaff is not accepted. Instead Hal ignores him and rejects him in shame, as a symbol of his wayward youth. To join King Hal – Falstaff would have had to do the impossible : change his station in life. No longer be just a roustabout or peasant. Fighting alongside King Hal isn’t enough.

3. SPIKE: You don't come near the girl, Doc.
DOC: I don't smell a soul anywhere on you. Why do you even care?
SPIKE: I made a promise to a lady.

Why indeed? Again Spike – will do anything for Buffy and Dawn. But it appears to be more than that – since in Afterlife, he literally apologizes to Buffy for failing to live up to his promise – failing to protect Dawn from the doctor. Apparently, you can care without a soul – but you need a reason to care, something outside of the rest of the Gang’s desire to do good? Which is why Buffy can never trust Spike outside of herself.
Now let’s move to Season 6 – Spike appears more human in this season than he has in the last five. His makeup is subdued. His hair is not as white. He no longer wears black nail-polish. And he appears to dress up more. Also, the number of times he wanders about in broad daylight is somewhat telling.

The first hint of the humanization of Spike is in Afterlife. Buffy finds Spike outside the Magic Box, sitting on a crate in the shadows, it is very bright outside. She asks how he can be out there it being daylight and all. He shrugs stating the shadows are low enough, so it isn’t a problem. Later in Life Serial – we see Spike drinking and playing cards with demons – human activity. But it’s in OMWF that we get actual metaphors and lines regarding Spike’s desire to be a man and his frustration regarding it:

I died So many years ago.[Spike looks surprised to hear himself singing. Buffy rolls her eyes] But you can make me feel Like it isn't so

Spike’s surprise that he is singing – shows that these thoughts are coming from deep inside him. He is finally revealing to Buffy and the audience precisely what he feels. It’s the first time we’ve been inside Spike’s point of view since Afterlife. He goes on to sing how “If my heart could beat, it would break my chest.” – All these lines signify how he wishes deep inside that he was human, because if he was still alive these feelings would make sense, he might have a chance with her. As it is – it is enough that she makes him feel alive. When he is with her, he feels like the man he once was. Something he appears to like much better than he expected.

Later, when he captures one of the demon’s minions who is a puppet. Spike states: “Strong. Someday he'll be a real boy.” A comment that we hear him utter several times in the episodes that follow. In Smashed – he tells her a man can change. In Entropy – we hear him tell her how what has happened is real for him and she declares it was only real for him. And instead of hurting her like a demon would – he and Anya do what humans would do – have sex, which is recorded on tape – making it real. Real is becoming very important to Spike. In Gone – he accuses Buffy of only coming to him because she’s invisible, not real, so what they are doing isn’t real. In Dead Things – he asks her what this thing is between them for her. Again hunting for some sense of acknowledgment from her. Instead in Dead Things – she tells him he is just a evil soulless thing and beats him to a pulp not stopping until she sees his all too real human face. The human face.
Gone is an interesting episode. David Fury wrote it and inserted not one but three metaphors regarding a possible change in Spike –

Xander’s line: “Good Godfrey Cambridge, Spike.” Xander states this when he sees Spike touching Buffy’s thigh.

I have sugarmamma2 on B C & S to thank for figuring out this metaphor. Godfrey Cambridge is a comedic African American actor who stared in the film Watermelon Man. In this film, Godfrey Cambridge’s character starts out as a bigoted white man – who due to a bad tanning operation becomes a black man. His changed status makes him a better human being, although it does change all of his relationships in ways he did not expect.
Prior to Xander’s line Buffy is about to hit Spike with a spatula and Spike states, “ahh ahh ahh – this flapjack isn’t ready to be flipped.” As Destiney pointed out on the B C & S board – this line may mean that he isn’t ready to be turned over, become something new.
Finally, Spike visits Buffy in the morning when the sun is out, like a normal guy visiting his girlfriend, the implication that he wishes to be seen as a man not a vampire.

As You Were is another episode that hints at this. It does it subtly but if you watch it again, you’ll see one glaring line in the script that makes little sense. In fact it confused me at the time it was mentioned.

BUFFY: I need to find a guy. Dealer. Calls himself The Doctor.
SPIKE: Human?

Now I always found Spike’s line about the Doctor being human, odd. Were they trying to mislead us, so we’d be shocked when we discovered Spike was the Doctor? Or were they foreshadowing something about Spike? Also eggs – the idea of rebirth? The eggs are in his crypt, in the area Spike and Buffy usually make love. She destroys them – killing the demon eggs and possibly wacking another part of Spike’s demon self? Perhaps I’m reading too much into it. As You Were always felt a bit clunky to me. But I did consider the line “Human” awfully ironic, considering that Riley later tells us Spike is the Doctor. It also refers back to Doc and the eggs in Forever, where Doc tells Spike he’s seen his human version. And the Ghorra Demon eggs that resurrect the dead.

There are also references in Double Meat Palace (orders food at fast food place and lights make me appear dead), Older and Far Away (brings beer to the party and a friend), Hell’s Bells (human date to the wedding, leaving in daytime), Normal Again (has groceries and comments on not being treated as real), but this is getting way too long. So let’s leap ahead to Seeing Red. In Seeing Red, Spike finally makes a decision to change his life. The AR scene and his unexpected response to it, has motivated him.

SPIKE We were never together. Not really. She wouldn't lower herself that far.
CLEM She's a sweet girl, Spike, but hey. Issues. And no wonder, with the
coming back from the grave and whatnot. I had this cousin, got
resurrected by some kooky shaman -- who-boy! Was that a mess!
SPIKE Why do I feel this way?
CLEM (shrugs) Love's a funny thing.
SPIKE Is that what this is?
CLEM Well, I don't know. Drinking, breaking stuff -- how's your appetite?
You been eating?
SPIKE I can feel it. Squirming inside my head.
CLEM Love?
SPIKE The chip. Little Jiminy Cricket, gnawing bits and chunks.
Spike puts his fingers to his heads probing harshly as if he's going to gouge the chip out with his bare hands. Clem eyes him with concern.
SPIKE Everything used to be so clear. Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills
Slayer, sucks her dry, picks his teeth with her bones.
CLEM (queasy) Metaphorically?
SPIKE That's how it's always been. I've tasted the life of two Slayers. But
with Buffy... (hating himself) This isn't the way it's supposed to
be. It's the chip. Steel and wires and silicon. It won't let me be a
monster. And I can't be a man. I'm nothing.

Convinced that he can’t be a man, Spike goes off to Africa planning on returning to the monster he once was. The scene between Spike and the demon in the cave is fascinating. Spike is stating he wants to return to what he once was, the demon echoes this as “the man” Spike once was. Spike believes he wants to become the monster again, the Big Bad. Because becoming a man is impossible. Besides the monster was easier to deal with. So strip away the man which is castrating the monster. The demon laughs telling him he is no longer worthy. That he let a woman castrate him. Spike insists he is worthy and he wants to get back to what he was before the woman – so he can show her what he’s capable of. That as a complete monster – he’s as good if not better than she is. I doubt seriously this demon is going to give Spike what he thinks he wants. The demon even seems to indicate otherwise. And what would be the worst punishment from the demon’s point of view for a former dark warrior? Making him human. Demons consider humans below them, inferior. This was Anya’s punishment for losing her amulet. D’Hoffryn refused to let her be a demon again. Because she failed – she’d remain mortal. The demon laughs at Spike. Tells Spike he’s become more human, not a demon anymore. And when Spike says he can endure the trails as long as he gets what he wants in exchange, the demon laughs with pleasure. The pictures on the cave walls are reminiscent of what Willow is doing to Warren in Sunnydale – she strips him of his monster skin, revealing the human weakness underneath. On the cave walls the demon has ripped off his victims’ skins and ripped out hearts – revealing the human or demonic natures underneath. All of these images lead me to believe that the human part of Spike will get what he wants. Not the demon. The demon will be ripped out or stripped from him. This would parallel Willow’s journey – who will also be stripped of her dark power – her dark self, becoming once again the geeky girl she despises. Spike like Willow hates that geeky self, which he refers to as a life of mediocrity in Crush. He would prefer anything over that. It could go the other way of course, the demon could rip away the humanity that still resides inside Spike…but that’s what Spike wants, isn’t it? And Spike never gets what he wants. Also it’s far more painful for Spike, to lose the demon at this point. The demon isn’t what’s ripping him to shreds, it’s the man. It’s the man who can’t handle what he’s done to Buffy. And it’s the man he would like to be rid of.

To grow up – Spike needs to stop being the monster and finally deal with the man that resides inside him. The weak- willed man the monster despises.

Sorry for the length. Long-winded as usual.

; - ) shadowkat

[> [> Great !!! (with 'kat I'd need to buy a thesaurus to vary my compliments...) -- Etrangere, 13:20:04 05/16/02 Thu

I also think that Spike's path of redemption since S5 was all about Humanity. Does that mean actually becoming human ? I'm not yet convinced because I think it might be a too easy way, and one already done with Anya.
Or well, if they make him human, there must be a twist so that he can have a storyline in s7 :)
But your post was very convincing about it.

Also about him and humanity I believe you forgot the most telling line in the Gift ("i know i'm a monster but you treat me like a man, and that's-") and the way that could be compared to Ben.
Also they is Spike's liking human food :)
I'd better stop, 'cause there's a lot of clues about Spike's humanity.

I also think that you're right in your conclusion. Just as Buffy, Xander and Willow needs to accept the monsters in them, I think that Spike and Anya needs to accept the human in them.

[> [> I don't disagree with your conclusions, but -- Dochawk, 13:59:52 05/16/02 Thu

Shadowkat,

As usual a fabulous essay. But this time I think you fall into the same trap that so many people on this board do, Spike as truthsayer. For some reason, everyone accepts what Spike says as truth. But its not (now granted I am one of three people who believe this, and I don't have the time or energy at this moment to go through this in detail). Spike's truth is filtered through 3 things, 1. His absolute self- centeredness; 2, that he is a creature of darkness, of chaos (as Xander reminds us constantly he is a leashed evil thing) and 3. he is obsessed with Buffy (youpoint this out so eloquently in many posts). So his "truths" are always slanted to his selfish desire for Buffy (and for Buffy to join him in the dark). One does wonder why he doesn't vamp her, but I think he knows if he does he will lose her irrevocably, because he can't be a normal vampire either.

[> [> [> Uh...color me confused, where do I say Spike is truthsayer? -- shadowkat, 15:19:27 05/16/02 Thu

I say Drusilla is the truthsayer - not Spike. I don't see him as a speaker of truth. I agree he tells people what he wants to - to support his own ends. He's opportunistic.

I utterly and completely agree with you. Spike only tells the truth when it suites his ends - and he certainly doesn't tell all of it. No one tells truth in the show
completely. Except possibly Drusilla at times, because she's nuts - so it's unintentional.

If I implied it...tell me where, because it wasn't intentional, honest.

[> [> My problem Shadowkat -- ramses 2, 14:01:02 05/16/02 Thu

Is I agree with what you say. He needs to grow up and deal with the man inside him. But I believe he must do so unsouled. Give him a soul and you end the story. At least Spike's story.

[> [> [> Re: My problem Shadowkat -- shadowkat, 15:14:42 05/16/02 Thu

Not necessarily...if you watch Angel at all - you'll realize that this is truly not the case. Darla's story began with the resouling. Spike is already dealing with an internal struggle. Why is everyone assuming he'll be just like Angel? He could be like Holtz or Ripper.
Give the writers some leeway. I could write it.

[> [> [> [> Absoutely -- Rufus, 16:43:07 05/16/02 Thu

Angel is still cursed, and his own human demons have only made his trip to redemption that bit harder, remember Angel wants to rid himself of his curse and was hoping that if he had done enough he would have his curse lifted, his humanity restored.

Darla had been a vampire for very many years more than she had been human, more years than Angel. She had to relearn how to care. She had a background as a prostitute that had left her open to the whims of her customers, deserted when she became ill. With some time Darla came to understand why Angel felt she had damned him.

Spike has been a vampire the least time out of his vampire family, he still had a connection to things human as mentioned in Becoming 2. He didn't want the world destroyed, if only to preserve his "happy meals on legs". As a chipped vampire, Spike was evolving closer to humanity than he was comfortable with, he knew that his instinct was to kill Buffy, not love her. In Smashed, Spike was still able to talk himself into trying to kill that woman in the alley, and Buffy never knew about it. The writers used Xander as a mouthpiece to give the final objection to Spike becoming "good" as a demon. It's the reason Buffy can't trust and let herself love him. If Spike became human, or a form of a soulled being, he already had worked his way through some of the stuff that Darla did, he wanted to help Buffy. "What we once were informs all that we have become" doesn't only apply to vampires, it also can apply to vampires who become human. William became Spike aka William the Bloody, can become Spike the human. His experience as a vampire would give him valuble information on how to battle them, and his love for Buffy would remain the same. People seem to think that only demon have power, why can't Spike as a human be powerful in a way beyond the physical. We know that Giles is a powerful man when he lets a bit of his dark side out, I see Spike the same way. I'd be very surprised if he went back to being just the sobbing poet in the alley.

[> [> [> [> I meant the story of a vampire changing through dint of free will -- ramses 2, 16:51:06 05/16/02 Thu

I'm not assuming he'd be like Angel. I just think the story of him struggling against his fate, a creature snearing at what he's supposed to be, will be wiped out. I think that's why he's such a compelling anti-hero, he is us.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I meant the story of a vampire changing through dint of free will -- shadowkat, 18:29:27 05/16/02 Thu

"I'm not assuming he'd be like Angel. I just think the story of him struggling against his fate, a creature snearing at what he's supposed to be, will be wiped out. I think that's why he's such a compelling anti-hero, he is us."

I hear what you're saying but - well we have to remember we aren't writing this story and its not ours - it's Joss
Whedons and his writers. I'd be interested to see how they
pull it off - who knows they could surprise you.

Also Not to echo what Rufus said so brillantly above, but as a human he would be us even more. It would NOT be wiped out.
He would still struggle. Look at Willow - she's human and struggling mightily. Or Wesely on Angel - whose story has become even more interesting than Angel's. Or Holtz who failed struggling against his. You are relying on one literal metaphor - the writers are changing it - making the show a little older more ambigious and to do that you have to get out of the soul cannon. That's the point they made with Warren, Jonathan and Andrew - you have the same struggle with a soul. In Spike's case I think the struggle
will actually get harder - because everything he's known for a hundred years will suddenly change. Think about Anya
in Dopplegangland. He's still struggling.

[> [> The Birth Day of the King of Cups. -- alcibiades, 14:28:00 05/16/02 Thu

In Crush:

Drusilla: The King of Cups wants a picnic. But this is not his birthday.

In the last couple of episodes, Spike has been the King of Cups, literally, in that he has been in his Cups for days. In SR, Spike shatters a cup in his hand and the shards drop out of it for quite some time. The splintering of the cup is a lengthy shot. I wondered why they lingered on it.

Spike tells Clem he wants a picnic -- he wants to return to being the kind of monster who tasted the lives of Slayers.

But now it will finally be his Birth DAY. In other words, Spike is going to be reborn literally, just as Buffy was in Bargaining.

Season starts with Buffy's rebirth, ends with Spike's.

All next year, Spike like Buffy will spend crawling out of the grave and returning to being human.

[> [> [> Lovely ! -- Ete, 14:42:31 05/16/02 Thu

Also, we've seen two picnics in S4 that were linked to the idea of Garden of Eden (Faith's in This year's girl and Riley's in Something Blue)
Picnic could then be seen as going back to being the Big Bad (going back in the wilderness of amorality)
or becoming back a human from the beginning of the process.

Very good observation about the smashing of the cup.
I think it's because as the King of Cup, Spike is standing for insight in others' emotions and also his lover aspect, both aspect he just utterly betrayed in Seeing Red.
So the destroying of the cup comes with the realisation that he has lost what was his main asset. (just as the other scoobies have seen their greatest qualities become their greater flaws)

[> [> [> [> Re: Lovely ! -- alcibiades, 14:57:40 05/16/02 Thu

Thank you.

Thought of something else after I posted. Dru said this to Spike or about Spike the day he first learned what a Slayer was -- the thing that would shape his destiny for a 100 years.

He smashes the CUP right before he decides to go back to his calling.

[> [> [> Re: The Birth Day of the King of Cups. -- Rufus, 17:06:14 05/16/02 Thu

In the last couple of episodes, Spike has been the King of Cups, literally, in that he has been in his Cups for days. In SR, Spike shatters a cup in his hand and the shards drop out of it for quite some time. The splintering of the cup is a lengthy shot. I wondered why they lingered on it.

From Fool for Love

DARLA
(sing-song; to Drusilla)
I think our boys are going to fight.

Drusilla claps her hands giddily.

DRUSILLA
The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his birthday.

Darla looks at Drusilla like she's crazy.

This line from Dru in FFL always bothered me, it couldn't have been about Angel, it was about Spike. I've been waiting for his birthday since that episode.

The only other quote that got to me was what Dru said at the end of FFL...

Drusilla and Spike are arguing.

DRUSILLA
Why can't you kill her?

SPIKE
You're the one who keeps bringing her up!

TITLE CARD: South America, 1998

SPIKE
I haven't said a word about the bloody Slayer since we left
California. She's on the other side of the planet, Dru!

DRUSILLA
But you're lying! I can still see her floating all around you,
laughing. Why? Why won't you push her away?

SPIKE
But I did, pet. I did it for you. You keep punishing me. Carrying on
with creatures like this.

Pull back to reveal a CHAOS DEMON standing nearby, holding a
beer. He's tall with antlers that drip and ooze.

CHAOS DEMON
Okay, you guys obviously have a thing going on here.

DRUSILLA
I have to find my pleasures, Spike. You taste like ashes.

SPIKE
(re: demon)
So this is my fault now?

CHAOS DEMON
(to Spike)
I didn't know she was seeing somebody. (off Spike's look) I should
take off.

SPIKE
Yeah, why don't you do that?

The demon blows a kiss to Drusilla, then walks off.

DRUSILLA
You can't blame the ghoul, Spike. You're all covered with her. I look
at you... all I see is the Slayer.

Two things, Dru said why "can't" you kill her, not why won't you kill her. Then the line about tasting like ashes. Haven't figured that out....could it be all the ashes or dust from vampires he has killed with Buffy?

Then there is this from Crush......

DRUSILLA: Naughty! Shh. (puts finger to her lips) You needn't make up stories. I already know why you're not coming. Poor boy. (puts hands to her head) Tin soldiers put funny little knick-knacks in your brain. Can't hunt! Can't hurt! Can't kill!

She jerks her head on each "can't" in an imitation of Spike being zapped by the chip.

DRUSILLA: You've got a chip.

She tries to put her hands on Spike's head but he gets up from the chair and moves away.

SPIKE: Right, so you've heard. Poor Spike's become a cautionary tale for vampires, right? "You better be good, kiddies, or else they might wire you up someday!" (Kicks something across the room)
DRUSILLA: I don't believe in science. All those bits and molecules no one's ever seen. I trust eyes and heart alone. (Walks over to him) And do you know what mine is singing out right now?

She takes Spike's hand and puts it over her heart. He stares at her.

DRUSILLA: All in your head. I can see it. Little bit of ... plastic, spiderwebbing out nasty blue shocks. (moves her fingers across his head imitating a spider) And every one is a lie. (Spike keeps his head bent) Electricity lies, Spike. It tells you you're not a bad dog, but you are.

If the chip lies, then where are Spikes feelings and actions coming from? One thing, he is still capable of returning to his dark ways, the only thing stopping him that chip. Then in Crush, Dru has some more to say.....

DRUSILLA: Not nice to change the game in mid-play, Spike. You've taken my chair and the music hasn't stopped.
SPIKE: Sorry, pet. My house, my rules.
DRUSILLA: I think I shall be very cross with you when I'm free again.
BUFFY: What's going on?
SPIKE: Simple. I'm gonna prove something. (moves up close to her) I love you.

SPIKE: No, look at me! (grabs her chin and forces her to look at him) I ... love you. (Buffy jerks her chin out of his hand) You're all I bloody think about. Dream about. You're in my gut ... my throat ... I'm drowning in you, Summers, I'm drowning in you.

Dru begins to laugh. Spike turns.

SPIKE: I can do without the laugh track, Dru.
DRUSILLA: But it's so funny. I knew ... before you did. I knew you loved the Slayer. The pixies in my head whispered it to me

Dru grabs Buffy's throat and looks into her face. Spike runs over and grabs Dru, flings her aside. She falls to the floor. Spike takes out the keys and unlocks Buffy as Dru gets to her feet. Buffy and Spike stand side-by-side, both panting.

Dru stands up, holding her face, panting and looking shocked.

DRUSILLA: Poor Spike... (shot of Spike and Buffy staring at her) so lost. (tearfully) Even I can't help you now.

She turns and leaves.

When Dru left she said even she couldn't help Spike anymore, he is lost, but has Spike found his Birthday party in Africa, the party Dru knew about so long ago.

[> [> [> Re: The Birth Day of the King of Cups. -- aliera, 17:32:22 05/17/02 Fri

Actually he's currently the jack (or knight) not the king. That may come (or not) if he's reborn.

[> [> Great post shadowkat, but... (POSS. SPOILERS FOR FINALE) -- Simone, 17:22:46 05/16/02 Thu

... I agree with ramses.

There are two reasons I can see why they won't turn Spike fully human:

a) He does indeed need to deal with his "William" issues. The emotional baggage that he never dealt with as a human, that he merely escaped by becoming a vampire, is what's been re-emerging and mucking up his (un)life all this season, not his demonic nature. But him becoming human or acquiring a soul would simply be another escape (in the opposite direction this time), a free pass for all the things he did in the past 120 years. I just don't see ME going for such a total cop-out after a season when they've done nothing but take the hardest, riskiest road. Not to mention that it would completely ruin the metaphor of what Spike is about.

b) The B/S relationship has been all about the struggle of opposites, the tension between order and chaos, the rational and the irrational. Spike's not the only one who needs to grow up and make an effort towards achieving a balance. Buffy does too. A fully humanized or souled Spike would eliminate the need for her to come to terms with her own issues (denial, repression) and undermine her growing up process. He can't be the one doing all the work here.

IMO, there are only 2 possibilities: Spike simply gets unchipped but, unlike 120 years ago, he choosed the hard, painful, road this time; or the demon starts his heart beating, thus restoring his connection to humanity, to the cycle of life and death, but leaves him a soulless demon otherwise (thereby making him no different than Clem or Lorne). In light of recent rumours, I think the latter possibility seems increasingly likely. And I think it works very well in terms of the metaphor. It wouldn't change what Spike stands for (chaos, the irrational) but it would signify his full transition from the dark side of those impulses (death, destruction, nihilism, selfishness) to the light side (life, strength, passion, individualism). Metaphorically speaking, he will have effectively become that "other" side of the coin, the First Slayer. And Buffy will still have to come to terms with her "shadow," the tension will still be there, but this will facilitate her realization that those things she fears so much in herself are not inherently bad.

I could be wrong about his but, personally, I would consider a human/souled Spike a complete betrayal of the story ME has been telling for the last 3 seasons.

[> [> [> Wow, metaphorically speaking he will become the first slayer -- ramses 2, 17:43:30 05/16/02 Thu

I've been viewing this season as Buffy needing to accept her inner Slayer. Discover what she is. Her unhappiness has been because of her refusal to accept that she's not a normal girl. She's afraid of what she is. All of Spike's words, you belong in the shadows with me, I know what kind of girl you are, you're an animal. The balcony scene. The rape scene with her, you're hurting me. Please stop. I saw Spike as pushing her all season to accept what she is. And Buffy violently(DT) rejecting it. Maybe he already is the metaphorical first slayer.

[> [> [> [> Re: Wow, metaphorically speaking he will become the first slayer -- shadowkat, 18:48:23 05/16/02 Thu

"I've been viewing this season as Buffy needing to accept her inner Slayer. Discover what she is. Her unhappiness has been because of her refusal to accept that she's not a normal girl. She's afraid of what she is. All of Spike's words, you belong in the shadows with me, I know what kind of girl you are, you're an animal. The balcony scene. The rape scene with her, you're hurting me. Please stop. I saw Spike as pushing her all season to accept what she is. And Buffy violently(DT) rejecting it. Maybe he already is the metaphorical first slayer."

I agree with that metaphor - have been holding off doing my essay with Spike/Dawn/Buffy and Faith - until after finale.
My analysis is similar to yours but with a different twist.

Look at the last scene of Buffy's dream - the fight with the
slayer on living room floor is exactly the same as the fight with Spike on the bathroom floor. She's stronger this season when she's with Spike, she becomes weaker when she rejects him, gets hurt repeatedly, until finally she's shot - a clear indicator of her need to accept the darkness in herself - perhaps DarkWillow will help her find it?
Still not sure if I'm reading more into it than I should, but the hand metaphors are so obvious - I can't see how.
I'll write it all down for you when I get the chance and explain why turning Spike human and alterring things next year doesn't ruine things like everyone seems to think it does - plan on using Faith to prove that.

Now let's see if this posts since I just lost my dang internet connection!! UGGGH! ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks Shadowkat! I'm sure however it turns out it will be great -- ramses 2, 19:15:54 05/16/02 Thu

storytelling. The hand things are so obvious. They must be there for some reason. I think they represent ying/yang. Buffy/Spike. Both struggling to become balanced. That's why I think the scene in SR had to be there. It's a set piece to beating in DT. Buffy, right hand, strength unbalanced. Spike, left hand, weakness and love unbalanced. I still think we can view Buffy as Bodhissattva. On a journey to remember oneself.(The Slayer) Love your posts!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wow, metaphorically speaking he will become the first slayer -- Simone, 19:32:58 05/16/02 Thu

Here's how I see it - Spike and the First Slayer both represent the same thing: that paradoxical tangle of drives at the heart of human nature which is the source of both our appetite for death and destruction AND our strength, our lust for life. It's what Nietzsche is talking about when he lumps together nihilism and a joyous yea-saying to life.

Since the Angel and Faith débâcles, Buffy has completely rejected that part of herself, in both its incarnations. And the more she has, the more she has lost her vitality, the more her subconscious has rebelled and ended up hurting her. It's not just Spike's actions that symbolize that but also her subconscious directing her to kill her friends (who also represent aspects of her psyche) in NA, or the fact that said friends have themselves been falling apart. In "Restless," she deals with the First Slayer and the threat she presents to her and the SG by completely dismissing her. It's becoming increasingly obvious that that was no solution. Instead, it has only allowed all their issues to fester and escalate until they're completely out of control. Repression, it seems, is not the answer.

Next year, I suspect, will be about the SG finally coming to terms with their darkness instead of trying to run away from it. Spike and (probably) Anya need to make the journey in the opposite direction and finally CHOOSE to accept their "lighter," more rational impulses rather than have acceptance thrust upon them via chip or forced humanization. If the spoilers about Spike's transformation and Anya's actions in the finale are true, they've got a head start on the others.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Eeek! Still tiny finale SPOILER in the post above and this one -- Simone, 19:59:55 05/16/02 Thu

Also, two more things:

1) Whatever Spike's transformation, in order for this to work for me, it would have to be HIS choice, what he really wants (whether he realizes it or not), not just the demon maliciously tricking him.

2) I'm not sure how Willow fits into all of this. Unlike with Xander and Buffy, with Willow it's the dark side that dominates. Without Tara to balance it out, I'm not sure she can recover. I think she'll have to, because she's also Buffy's "spirit," but who knows how things will fall into place by the time ME is finished. They always come up with twists and turns that shock the hell out of me while still making perfect sense.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Eeek! Still tiny finale SPOILER in the post above and this one -- shadowkat, 07:07:00 05/17/02 Fri

"I'm not sure how Willow fits into all of this. Unlike with Xander and Buffy, with Willow it's the dark side that dominates. Without Tara to balance it out, I'm not sure she can recover. I think she'll have to, because she's also Buffy's "spirit," but who knows how things will fall into place by the time ME is finished. They always come up with twists and turns that shock the hell out of me while still making perfect sense."

I think Willow and Spike are being paralleled here. They's been on a parallel journey since the end of Season 2, in
different directions - we've reached the culmination of that, with Villains. Both have a similar problem: they
can't stand the weak willed human geek. They prefer the powerful dark force - makes them feel important. Anya really
isn't like either of them in this sense, Anya is actually
more like Buffy - in the sense that she has dealt with abandonment, while Willow and Spike deal with rejection.

I won't go into too much depth b/c this is the essay I'm working on this weekend. Assuming I don't burn out...;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Looking forward to seeing your essay. -- Tar, 20:47:02 05/16/02 Thu

Especially, after watching 'Who Are You' on FX yesterday and being struck by how closely the Faith/Buffy church pummel paralleled the Buffy/Spike alley pummel in 'Dead Things'. The dialogue was strikingly similar as well.

[> [> [> Re: Great post shadowkat, but... (POSS. SPOILERS FOR FINALE) -- shadowkat, 18:39:00 05/16/02 Thu

You know it's possible he won't be souled and just human.
But we will have to wait and see...I like your beating heart idea.

"or the demon starts his heart beating, thus restoring his connection to humanity, to the cycle of life and death, but leaves him a soulless demon otherwise (thereby making him no different than Clem or Lorne). In light of recent rumours, I think the latter possibility seems increasingly likely. And I think it works very well in terms of the metaphor. It wouldn't change what Spike stands for (chaos, the irrational) but it would signify his full transition from the dark side of those impulses (death, destruction, nihilism, selfishness) to the light side (life, strength, passion, individualism). Metaphorically speaking, he will have effectively become that "other" side of the coin, the First Slayer. And Buffy will still have to come to terms with her "shadow," the tension will still be there, but this will facilitate her realization that those things she fears so much in herself are not inherently bad."

Which works with the metaphors that I listed as well as Ramses analysis and my Spike analysises and Buffy ones.

On the other hand - I think they can do the same thing by making him human or making him a daywalker aka Blade.
But as I said - we'll have to wait and see. My hunch is
the spoiler of him walking out into the blazing sun at
the end is probably true.

At any rate - I'll be happy if they give me more information on him and wrap on that crazy Halfrek/Cecily
plot thread! ;-)

[> [> [> [> Re: Great post shadowkat, but... (POSS. SPOILERS FOR FINALE) -- Simone, 18:55:10 05/16/02 Thu

Oh, I think that re-starting his heart will mean that he's mortal again. So he'll be able to walk in the sun, subsist on human food, die rather than turn into dust, etc. But he'll still be a demon, maybe still have the bloodlust (although that's never seemed much of an issue for Spike) and, most importantly, still work as Buffy's metaphorical opposite (which wouldn't be the case if he became entirely human). It's the only sort of compromise that makes sense to me and that I would find acceptable.

>>I'll be happy if they give me more information on him and wrap on that crazy Halfrek/Cecily
plot thread! ;-)<<

You and me both! They have to, really. She has to have SOMETHING to do with Spike finally dealing with his emotional baggage.

[> [> [> My opinion on the Spike finale options (spoilery speculation?)... -- Ixchel, 21:23:08 05/16/02 Thu

I tend to agree with Simone and ramses 2 regarding what will happen with Spike in the finale (note: it will be quite cruel if ME doesn't answer this until S7).

My reasons are also somewhat narrative related, because I see the breakdown of the options as follows:

1. Chipless/Agressively "Evil" Vampire - repetitive (Angelus)
2. Chipless/Attempting "Goodness" Vampire - not repetitive
3. Chipped/Ambiguous Vampire - repetitive (Spike, S4 - S6)
4. Chipless/"Transformed" Vampire (with human qualities, with or without a soul) - repetitive (Buffy, Kendra, Faith)
5. Chipless/Souled Vampire - repetitive (Angel)
6. Chipless/Human - repetitive (Anya)

Basically, I enjoy the destinctiveness of Angel's souled vampire story, Anya's human to demon to human (to demon) story and, especially, Buffy's (I recognize that Kendra and Faith are like Buffy, but I see them as enhancing Buffy's story) Slayer story. This, among other reasons, inclines me to prefer option 2. Please note, this is just my preference at this time, not some statement of wanting to control the outcome (I _like_ the way ME tells their story).

Of course, that ME will do something totally unexpected is perfectly possible. And I'll probably love whatever they do (they haven't disappointed me yet).

Ixchel

[> [> [> [> Yes, number 2 please! -- Caroline, 18:09:33 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> I like #2 as well, but that's why I think ME is not going there. Give us what we want? Huh! -- alcibiades, 08:08:17 05/20/02 Mon

[> [> Ok, Shadowkat, but will Buffy openly accept a resouled Spike -- Spike Lover, 11:47:03 05/20/02 Mon

In effect, what does Spike become if he is resouled? Does he not become guilt-ridden Angel, ashamed of 100+ years of the pain and suffering he has caused. No good to anyone. If Buffy could love him (which I don't partly because I don't think Buffy can love anyone,) would he not believe -as Angel did- that he is not worthy of that love. I also don't think Buffy could love a resouled Spike because he would be too much like Angel, her first true love.

I think Buffy has been lying to herself this entire time. The reason she can not love Spike as he is -is not because of who he is or what he has done or what he could do, but because she will not allow herself to love. She fears herself. (Perhaps as some have said, she fears the slayer in herself. She wants someone she does not have to hold back with, and if she gets William, he will break as easily as Xander or any other human boy.) Remember, Riley had been enhanced by drugs, and she still held back.

I can't see a (believable) future between a resouled Spike and Buffy unless Buffy truly changes.

[> Re: amazing posts by Rufus, shadowkat, Dochawk, Ixchel, Ete, OnM, ramses, Dyna, aclibiades, et al!! -- redcat, 16:31:54 05/16/02 Thu

Have been away for a few days and come back to find this amazing set of threads and posts
on the board just now. Thanks to all!

Have only time to add two tiny thoughts, and I'm not saying I completely buy the spec that
Spike will come back as some sort of 21stC William -- there are so many, many layers at work
here, as so many of the great posters to the board have discussed -- that I haven’t decided
where I think they’re taking us. But I, too, get a gleam in my eyes when I think of some of the
speculation being outlined. I do think Spike coming back with some sort of *overt* humanity is
one of the more interesting and distinctly possible developments.

If it does turn out that ME takes Spike in this direction, may I suggest the following:

1) If Spike does “become what he was before,” ME will have to decide whether or not that
means he comes back as William, and if so, whether William comes without his memories
(truly, “what he was before”) or *with* them, including 120+ years of being an evil,
opportunistic, deadly thing and a much shorter time experiencing what it means to be a
vampire who has cared for someone’s welfare above his own (Buffy’s/Dawn’s). This latter has
so many more rich dramatic and philosophical possibilities that I can’t imagine them bringing
the character back in any lesser way. Nor does it make sense that he would come back as
any human other than one based on the late-Victorian William we’ve already seen - that simply
wouldn’t make sense in the Jossverse. But I think that Joss thinks of time and history less as a
circle and more as a spiral - things always come back around, just never to the same place.
As Ete says, the characters have to walk *through* the fire and out the other side, and will
inevitably have been changed in the process.

2) No matter what the metaphysical/dramatic device turns out to be, on a professional level,
bringing Spike back as some sort of William-esque character would be an amazing
gift/challenge from Joss Whedon to James Marsters. As an actor, I think JM would be both
terrified and thrilled to get the chance to take his increasingly 3-dimensional character down
that road, especially since he would be both building on and challenging his own internal
comfort level and knowledge about Spike after playing him for so long. As importantly, he
would be building on and challenging the audience’s particular relationship with/acceptance of
Spike after our own growth with him across the last several seasons. To really embody that
journey - and to be willing to fully embody that person as he takes it – would be a great risk for
an actor, possibly as great a risk as the character would be taking on his journey towards
redemption, and certainly as great a risk as we, the audience, take in suspending our
commitments to what we “know” as we allow JM to take us along on the trip. Such risks often
come with great gifts attached. Given that JM now has a huge fan following as a sex symbol,
this move would call on his true commitment to acting as a profession, as opposed to him
being just a star. The outer journey mirrors the inner one (or is it the other way around)? I
have sometimes been annoyed at Joss’s statement that he gives his fans what he thinks they
need rather than what they want. As a teacher, I also often feel that way about my students,
but at least I try to do the yoga of humbly remembering that they are my teachers and I am
their student, even if I generally fail. Now, I'm not sure if JW is into either humility or yoga, but I imagine that he feels the
same way about his actors that he does about his fans. (I notice that he speaks in very
possessive terms about his crew and cast - “my boys” for the mimes in “Hush”). I wouldn’t put
it past him to demand this stretching of JM as an actor, perhaps partly because he thinks he
(JM) needs it and partly because Joss thinks he’s capable of it.

One way or the other, I'm signed up for the scenic tour.

[> [> Re: amazing posts by Rufus, shadowkat, Dochawk, Ixchel, Ete, OnM, ramses, Dyna, aclibiades, et al!! -- Rufus, 16:47:41 05/16/02 Thu

Spike as a human would be a great acting experience for JM. There is only so much you can do as a vampire in the limited character potential that has been imposed by the shows mythology. If he becomes human I'm fine with it and can't wait to see what the actor does with the new direction they take him in. There is still the chance the writers could take him down another road, what I say is just my opinion based upon what the writers have said about Buffy and Spike as a relationship, and what Fury feels about the soul issue. I can imagine the fights between the writers given how the arguements surface on the board..;)

[> [> [> Repeat after me : Writers lie, and Furys is the biggest Redemptionnista around :) -- Ete in De Nile land, 17:18:11 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Writers Lie About Spoilers, not About Past Episodes and Interpetations -- Dochawk, 21:24:52 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Why not? Past ep interpretations have bearing on the future, too. -- Dyna, 08:12:05 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> Re: amazing posts by Rufus, shadowkat, Dochawk, Ixchel, Ete, OnM, ramses, Dyna, aclibiades, et al!! -- shadowkat, 18:58:05 05/16/02 Thu

Bowing at your feet redcat! Yes - me too, on that scenic
tour. I see the same things you do. In fact in an interview
about FFL - JM said he was royally pissed when he first read the script and discovered the writers took personal stuff about him and put it in there. He felt so exposed and to expose that part of himself on screen was incredibly painful. But he did it with bells on. Because he believes that's what acting is all about - getting up there naked and revealing to the audience parts of yourself. I decided at that moment - I will watch anything that man does. Wow,
that's an actor.

So I agree - I think they are about to give him some interesting challenges. Just like they gave Alyson Hannigan this year.

It's why I watch Buffy. Oh and to you and Rufus and Malandaz thank you so much for your lengthy discourse on the roots of William - it made me realize how much he and our Willow truly have in common.

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