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Article: Holtz & Angel: the human voice & protection of innocents (spoiling through Benediction) -- SingedCat, 06:26:25 05/16/02 Thu

This is not my article, people, a friend sent it to me. But it was so well thought out, well-spoken, and focused, that I wanted to post it here for the pleasure and discussion of We the Obsessed. It pulls together a lot of what I think has been going on and makes some great points I haven't seen here, though I do insert a few **comments** of my own along the way. It is complete except for one incidental spoiler that I censored; why ruin things when you don't have to? :)

Someone posted this on the televisionwithoutpity.com boards:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------
Tim Minear went on record last night saying that not only did Holtz not lie in the letter, he technically never lied the whole episode.
--------------------------------------------------

Y'know, I've been mulling over Tim's comment for a while, and I believe him. Here are some of the conclusions I reached:

**SingedCat here: I don't agree about the lying thing-- or rather, I don't think that not speaking untruths carries with it any bennie points as such, and neither did Holtz; manipulation counts as lying in its truest form, not as less than a lie. Keep reading. **

the main issue of the Holtz saga was vengeance versus protection of innocents.

[Strega: let me know if you want me to move this to another thread, as it's kinda long.]

When Holtz started out a few hundred years ago -- a relatively happy,
God-fearing family man -- he wanted one thing primarily: to stop Angel
and Darla from hurting people, however necessary. What's the best way to
do this? Well, a stake through the heart, beheading, etc...you got it.
Killing them. Yes, we did see Holtz kidnap and torture Angel once, but
that was to get info on Darla. Holtz was about stopping the vamps.

Then Angel and Darla killed Holtz's family, and he got into the
vengeance game. And that's when things went to hell.

Because just killing Angel and Darla wouldn't be enough to wreak
vengeance on them. Vengeance requires that someone suffers on some level
equivalent to what you've suffered. A two-second turning to dust just
wouldn't have cut it for Holtz.

Holtz could have killed Angel when he first broke into the Hyperion and
captured him, and then gone after Darla. He probably could have killed
Angel right after Darla staked herself. That would have fufilled
Holtz's original goal: to stop Angel from hurting innocents. Because
remember, Holtz believes Angel is perfectly capable -- and in fact, very likely
-- to hurt innocents, soul or no soul. But that would have interfered
with Holtz's quest for vengeance, his quest to make Angel suffer the way
he'd suffered.

I think Holtz's strange behavior the night he kidnapped Connor was a
result of these two conflicting goals coming into play.

When Holtz told
Wesley Connor wouldn't be safe with Angel, and when he told Connor they
were going to Utah, it was out of a desire to protect an innocent child
from a monster. When he threatened to break Connor's neck, it was out
of vengeance. Then the portal opened, and Holtz saw a way to combine the
two things, and jumped in.

Why tell Connor the truth about himself? Partly out of vengeance and
partly out of love, I think. He wanted Connor to know the truth, for a
whole host of reasons...probably mostly vengeance to start out with. He
must have known that Connor would probably want to return eventually,
and figured it was best Connor do it while Holtz was still alive and
could "guide" him.

Do I believe that Holtz was telling the truth -- or at least _believed_
he was telling the truth -- when he told Angel that he had no more
taste for vengeance, that he had truly grown to love Connor? Yep. But...I
think that Holtz also continued to believe, to the very end, that Angel
was a danger, both to the world in general and, specifically, to
Connor. That if Connor were to come to trust Angel, one day Angel would
destroy him.

(matching mole, take note-- your 'noir theme redux' :))

Were Holtz's actions intended to trick Connor? Yes...from a certain
point of view. The other way of looking at it was that Holtz wanted Connor
to see what he believed Angel was capable of -- killing a human in cold
blood. I don't think that Holtz _consciously_ did everything he did in
the episode out of vengeance, though one could argue his subconscious
might be telling a different story. I think he did it out of his desire
to protect his adopted son, and out of a desire to stop Angel from
hurting anyone else.

Now, I've hated many things about this season. Nothing can save the
awful "romantic" pairings for me. But I really, really like Holtz. As some
others have said, the writers did an excellent job of making him seem
like someone from another era who didn't magically adopt 21st-century
mores and modes of behavior.

**Big yes on that one-- not to mention complex, fiendishly devious and interesting, but we've all said that before.**

But I think he also served another important purpose: humanizing and
personalizing Angelus's many victims. So far all of Angelus's victims
that we've seen are: a) the gypsies, for a brief period of time, who got
revenge; b) people Angelus turned into vampires who, though not really
the people whose bodies they were, consider themselves to be; and c)
Angel's visions, which tormented him. But basically, it's been all about
Angel. Angel's visions. Angel's torment. Angel's guilt. Holtz was a
real, rounded character, with his own personality and actions totally
separate from Angel's. For once, it wasn't all about Angel.

And this occurred during a time in which Angel really seemed to be
forgetting that he had anything to atone for, or that his victims were real
people whose lives had been destroyed. Cordy and Wesley were the only
people who had seen him as Angelus, and Cordy's become a yes- woman for
various vision-related reasons. Wesley was the only one of the MoG who
seemed to remember that Angel, though a loving dad and a goofy
detective, also carried the capacity for great darkness and dangerous. Angel
certainly seemed to forget that, or at least deny it (witness his "I would
never hurt someone I care about" statement), for various reasons: a) he
realized that Wolfram & Hart _couldn't_ kill him because of his role in
the apocalypse; b) he began seeing himself as a destined champion,
thanks to the Shanshu prophecy; c) he did a lot of stupid stupid things but
basically got off scot-free thanks to the very generous Powers That Be;
and d) he got a gift of a miracle child thanks to one of those!
stupid things. He stopped focusing on helping the helpless in order to
focus on his son, and he nursed a crush on Cordy because it made him
feel more human. He was unable to even start forgiving Wesley, or at
least see why Wesley might have done what he did.

**A very interesting angle that I missed. Don't get me started on his thing about Wesley. I've already strained the bandwidth on that subject...;)**

And _that_ was Angel's fatal flaw in dealing with Holtz. Angel didn't
seem able to realize that Holtz's quest wasn't just about vengeance.
Holtz never told Angel that he thought Angel would never hurt anyone, and
didn't need to be stopped. Angel just never considered that anyone
could possibly see little ol' him as a dangerous menace.

Which I think relates back to the fact that Angel, in some important
ways, has really been shaped by Angelus...and for Angelus it's all about
the vengeance. Remember, this is the entity who preferred to taunt and
anger the Slayer back in BtVS Season 2, rather than just sensibly
killing her as Spike recommended. He didn't care that doing so was
endangering his existence. Buffy defeated him because, while she's certainly not
perfect, she's all about protection...well, containment at least. She
wants to stop enemies she sees as dangerous, even if it means forgoing
vengeance on folk such as Spike. And that's what makes her - - and others
like her -- so effective. Because while vengeance may not necessarily
be evil or wrong, it's often, well, impractical and potentially deadly.
In addition to corrupting your soul and warping your mind, yadda yadda
yadda, it makes you a less effective warrior.

**Hmmm.. you think this guy has been watching Buffy as well?**

Angel's forgotten that. Because, among other things, Angel's never
really had to forgive anyone...and this season he seems to have forgotten
that anyone might have anything to forgive him for. He doesn't seem to
realize that, even though he fights evil, there are some non- evil
reasons people might oppose him. If Angel had been able to forgive, he likely
wouldn't have gone over to see Holtz without Connor around. If he had
realized that Holtz might have motives other than vengeance, he likely
wouldn't have gotten caught in Holtz's trap. Instead, he assumed that
Holtz, like others, had been blinded by Angel's nobility et al. Which
apparently is going to lead to [*something that's going to happen next week*], according to the preview.

In other words: after "Benediction", I'm holding on to a faint hope
that the AtS writers, instead of setting Angel up as an all- knowing
champion this season, have instead been setting him up for a fall. If that's
the case, then, well, maybe I can find some forgiveness in my heart for
them. We shall see...

**We shall indeed. And I have to agree on the romantic relationship issues on the count of Angel & Cordy (not Fred & Gunn a twosome of cuteness), although I find Groo more charming in adversity than I do when all is well for him. I still think he should hook up with Lorne-- they'd make a cute couple. :) **

[> Somebody get Holtz a copy of Parenting for Dummies! -- Tillow, 07:07:38 05/16/02 Thu

Interesting. I didn't know that Tim Minear had made that public statement about Holtz. Tim Minear went on record last night saying that not only did Holtz not lie in the letter, he technically never lied the whole episode. technically I think that's the key. If he believes he's telling the truth, it's true. But is it real, wholesome, of inherent moral value? I think not.

The thing that bothered me so horribly about the ending of the episode was that he did indeed pass on his legacy of vengeance to Connor. And in taking his own life, essentially 'getting the last word,' it is over and done with. Connor will never have closure. His already troubled life will be plagued with even more unanswered questions and lets not forget, he was raised in a hell dimension to be begin with because of Holtz thirst for vengeance. That whole 'God gave me to you.' thing was a nice cover story.

There's a few ways it could pan out. 1) Perhaps the MoG can convince Connor that it was not Angel but a staged vampire bite, and Connor will feel his first father lied to him his whole life, questioning his already rocky foundation. 2) Or he will be convinced it was a vampire that killed his father (not Angel) and carry on like Justine/Kate. (ack!) 3) Or he will always feel it was Angel who did it, and they will be enemies locked in a cycle of vengeance forever and Holtz will have successfully passed on his legacy of hate. It's a terrible, selfish, and completely unloving thing to do to someone you love. Not a very good father.

I believe Holtz said something like Hate turned to love. And it's too much for one person to hold both of these emotions. Well I think he let go of the wrong one in his final hour. He could have taken a lesson from Darla who truly loved Connor, unable to bear the thought of hurting him. She went to tell alone. Holtz took Connor along for the ride. Holtz' horror was that he knew Connor would grow to hate him. Well, guess what? That sometimes happens with parenting. We can't always be our childrens' gods. Sometimes we have to admit we are fallible.

I do agree that Holtz put a human spin on Angel's past victims and that Angel needs to learn a lesson with forgiving. But that lesson needs to be learned with Wes, not Holtz. As Cordelia said, he stole Connor's childhood. What he feels is love but it's dark and tinged with hate. Holtz is the villain here, a complex one but a villain nonetheless. Sometimes a parent's greatest fear is that the child will surpass his/her abilities. I believe Holtz fear is that Connor would surpass his ability to love.

[> [> New Article-- Should Dummies BE Parents? :) -- SingedCat, 07:34:55 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> Being a parent tends to make one realize what a dummy one is. -- Lilac, 08:36:07 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> Heinlein said... -- tost, 08:36:29 05/16/02 Thu

the best way to lie is to tell the truth in such a way as to not be belived.
I wonder who's handwriting is on that letter.

[> [> Re: Somebody get Holtz a copy of Parenting for Dummies! -- yabyumpan, 11:48:07 05/16/02 Thu

"Tim Minear went on record last night saying that not only did Holtz not lie in the letter, he technically never lied the whole episode."
No he didn't lie, in the same way that a stalker will not be technically lying when he says he loves the person he's stalking. He (Holtz) believed that loved Connor/Stephen and believed that his actions came from that love. I don't actually think that he's been capable of love since Angelus and Darla killed his family. The love was replaced by hate and a need for vengence, understandably so.
I don't believe he can have truely loved Connor/Stephen to be able to orphan him, which in effect, seems to be his plan. If C/S believes that Angel killed his "father", and accept for a few months, Holtz is the only father he's known, C/S will try to kill Angel. If he were to succed, it would effectively leave him in a strange land with no one. How is that love? How is that even giving any consideration to his "son's" welfare? He says he loves his son but his last thoughts are about vengence against Angelus not about his son. Can it be love to teach your child to hate and isn't that what we see across the world, children being taught to hate people they've never even met?

[> Another article, a bit OT, on salon.com -- ponygirl, 07:46:00 05/16/02 Thu

Didn't want to start a new thread for this (and many thanks to SingedCat for posting the interesting article above), Stephanie Zacharek has an absolutely scathing review of Attack of the Clones up on Salon in which she manages to work in some glowing words for Buffy. Worth reading, except it made me kind of regret my Clones tickets for tomorrow. Ah well.

[> [> A friend of mine saw AotC last night... -- Isabel, 18:11:03 05/16/02 Thu

He said it was good and better than Phantom Menace. I haven't seen it yet but her review seems very derisive of fans who may actually like Attack of the Clones anyway. Based on my gut feeling (and my high hopes) I'd take her review with a shaker of salt.

I'd like to know if you agree with her.

[> [> [> Re: A friend of mine saw AotC last night... -- Shiver, 06:11:56 05/17/02 Fri

AoTC is a completely different movie than Phantom Menace was. They went back to the old-style shoot-'em-up guy flick. Threw in a token love story for the chicks. But not much they could do about the wooden acting.

[> Is there a more accurate URL for this? I need to know who to credit this to. -- Masq, 09:16:28 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> No kidding, exactly where did Minear go on record with a link please..... -- Rufus, 17:53:56 05/16/02 Thu

[> This is great - thanks SC! -- matching mole, 09:40:17 05/16/02 Thu

I really like the insights into Angel's character, in spite of the fact that I called him the uncharacter not very long ago.

I'm really hoping for some sort of bizarre twist next week that is going really do a number on both Angel and Cordelia.

Numbers on Tshirts in Bargaining, NA, SR - what they mean (Spoilers to Villains, long) -- shadowkat, 06:34:58 05/16/02 Thu

What Numbers on T-shirts in B �Part I& II, NA & SR symbolize (Spoilers to Villains!)

(Quotes from Psyche Transcripts.)

Not sure if anyone has done this in depth yet, but this week it finally came to me what they were doing with those numbers on T-shirts. The writers may not have intended it, it may have just been an inside joke on the part of the production/ custom staff, if so it is a good one.

Until recently I believed they were doing something in regards to numerology, but Aliera, a poster on B C & S, told me in an email some time ago it was probably episode titles. I went back and checked � Aliera is right.

Bargaining Part I & II

Willow, Xander and Dawn all wear at different points T- shirts with numbers clearly printed on them.

The first is Willow�s � Number 11. Episode 11 of Btvs is Out of Sight Out of Mind.
In this episode, a geeky girl is ignored by friends and family to the extent that she literally becomes invisible and insane. She tortures Cordelia � the popular girl without remorse. No one notices her as a threat until she literally starts hurting people. Her name is Marcy Clark and at the end of the episode the government recruits her as an assassin.

This symbol works both as a title and an episode comparison.

Title first � Buffy in Bargaining Part I & II is out of sight but definitely not out of mind. Tara is out of sight during most of the episodes, but ironically not out of Willow�s mind until she dies and Willow leaves her body unattended and uncared for in a heap on the floor, all thought of Tara driven from her mind by vengeance.

The fact that this is the shirt Willow is wearing is also significant. Willow shares quite a bit in common with Marcy. She�s a geek, who until Buffy arrived, went largely unnoticed. She turned to magic to deal with her geek status � Marcy uses invisibility to deal with hers. Warren also reacts to being a geek and being tormented by hurting others.
As do the rest of the Troika. By referencing this episode � the production staff is showing a continuity in theme from Season 1 � you ignore the outsider at your own risk.

Finally Out OF Sight Out Of Mind is referenced in Gone. Where Xander not only asks if Buffy has become invisible because she�s been ignored, but Buffy says no this isn�t a Marcy Clark. (Buffy of course was being somewhat ignored at this point by Willow and Xander � who seem completely unaware of what is going on with her � while Spike and Dawn are paying too much attention to her. Odd � when Buffy was Out of Sight � Xander and Willow thought about her so much they brought her back � when she�s in Sight, she is out of their minds.)

2. Xander�s shirt is seen next � Number 13. Number 13 stands for When She Was Bad. This is the first episode of Season 2, the one before Spike and Dru as the new little bads are introduced. The episode starts with Willow and Xander, no vamps have bugged them all summer, then just as they are about to kiss � one leaps up to attack them and Buffy shows up slaying it. Willow is slightly resentful of Buffy�s presence in this episode, because Buffy comes on hot and heavy to Xander just to tease him and bug Angel. She apparently wants to hurt Xander for bringing her back to life and is tormented by dreams of the Master. In one of her dreams, the Master disquised as Giles tries to kill her while her friends look on. So Buffy is mega bitca. As a result of Buffy�s actions � Willow, Cordy and Giles are taken by the Masters� minions to ressurect the Master. Xander threatens Buffy � �If Willow dies � I kill you.� This episode is very Xander centric because � it deals with his unresolved feelings for Buffy and Willow and he gets to help Buffy save Willow.

The title and what it represents are also important. Episode 13 is the first time Buffy came back from death, she is stronger, nastier, and somewhat detached. This is similar to the way she is when they bring her back in Bargaining � stronger and detached and angry. As Willow says � you don�t have the whole range of emotions down yet. She also starts being Bad this year. Not big time bad � small time bad like in Season 2. In both Season 2 and Season 5 � she sleeps with vampires and she�s detached from her friends because of it.

Season 2 � is also when Willow started dabbling in dark magic big time. So the �when she was bad� � also relates to Willow � the other woman Xander cares for in that episode.

3. Dawn�s shirt is number 7. Number 7 stands for Episode 7: Angel. Angel is the episode where Buffy and Angel share their first kiss and Buffy discovers that Angel is not a human but a vampire. His vamp face registers after their kiss. Also she almost has to kill Angel because she believes he attacked her mother, but it was really Darla that did it. This results in a confrontation where Darla tries to shoot Buffy with guns � the first time guns are introduced in Buffy. Angel also tells Buffy that he is cursed with a soul � if he was soulless, he�d have no remorse no conscience. Though with a soul he still wants to kill her, or at least part of him does. He�s not a man but a monster. Realizing his mistake and as a result of their confrontation � Angel leaves for a few episodes, not re-appearing until Episode 11, Out of Sight/Out of Mind � where he saves Giles, Xander and Willow from the basement and Buffy never sees him.

Dawn has established a relationship with Spike, who has a chip not a soul, and is only kept from hurting Dawn due to the chip. Her relationship with Spike is in some ways similar to the Buffy/Angel one without the sex/attraction. Angel acts very protective towards Buffy in later years almost like an older brother/father figure � hence the sex as taboo metaphor. Spike acts like a surrogate father figure/older brother towards Dawn. Dawn�s in danger � Spike comes running. Dawn is also Buffy�s child self without the powers or loss of innocence. In All The Way � Dawn also shares her first kiss with a vampire � like Buffy she doesn�t know it�s a vampire, she thinks he�s a boy. The vampire really cares for her, but she must kill him. Just like Buffy had to eventually send Angel to Hell.

The title by itself is also significant:

Buffy can be considered an Angel by Dawn. Apparently she was in Heaven. She comes back thinking she�s wrong � just like Angel isn�t really an Angel, neither is Buffy? Buffy later almost kills her sister � again the dangerous Angel metaphor. And finally Buffy engages in a dangerous sexual relationship with a vampire just like she did with Angel.

NORMAL AGAIN

Xander�s shirt in Normal Again is number 50. Number 50 is Dopplegangerland, Season 3 Btvs.

This one works on several levels.

Xander is the one in Normal Again who states that he is real, that Sunnydale is real. Although he is obviously bothered by this and discusses it at some length with Spike who is equally ignored by Buffy�s view that they aren�t real.

Dopplegangerland is the episode where Anya and Willow inadvertently grab VampWillow from the Alternate Universe or Wishverse that was created when Cordelia wished Buffy never came to Sunnydale to Anya the vengeance demon. The Wishverse created two episodes prior to this one, becomes Buffyverse again when Giles breaks the amulet rendering Anya human. In Dopplegangerland � Anya is desperately trying to get her powers back. First she asks D�Hoffryn her old boss, who turns her down, then she asks Willow to get her amulet back from the Wishverse. Neither works � Anya is stuck being human and is miserable. We are also introduced to VampWillow � one of the best villains in Btvs history. In this episode, we truly get a glimpse of Willow�s dark side. Willow also appears to be slightly gay. VampWillow is sadistic. Uses short statements like Busy. Talk Over. Bored Now. Let�s Play. While Willow uses longer halting sentences. Both characters find the world of Sunnydale no fun and have fury boiling beneath the surface. Both care deeply for Xander. VampWillow hates Buffy. Willow pleads with Buffy in the episode not to kill her evil doppleganger self and just send her back to the Wishverse � where VampWillow dies anyway. Here�s what they say when they think she�s dead:

Giles: She was truly the finest of all of us.
Xander: Way better than me.
Giles: (nods decisively) Much, much better.
Xander: It's all my fault.
Buffy: (despairingly) No, it's me. I-it's me. I'm the one that called her reliable.
(Dopplegangerland, Episode 50, Season 3 Btvs)

In Normal Again � right before she grab�s Willow Buffy states: �You never stop coming through. Thank you, Willow.� She continues to call Willow reliable. Always there for her. Just like Xander does. In fact in Seeing Red, Xander states he wouldn�t know what he�d if he lost Buffy or Willow. In Dopplegangerland � they say the same things about Willow � how reliable she is � to the extent that an annoyed and troubled Willow rebels by practicing black magic with Anya. Anya wants to retrieve her amulet, instead Willow pulls out her evil self � VampWillow. Terrified at what she saw in the Wishverse � Willow tells Anya: �Look, m-magic is dangerous, Anya, i-it's, it's not to be toyed
with.� Also in Dopplegangerland � Anya teams up with VampWillow in hopes of returning to the Wishverse with her. A world they both preferred.

Now in Villains � Willow has literally become Doppleganger Willow. Even down to the same sentences � Bored Now and Busy. Delving into black magic has pulled out Willow�s evil self. Just as it did in Dopplegangerland. But instead of aiding her � Anya attempts to stop her and is frozen. Anya is also partly responsible � since the books Willow accesses are in Anya�s possession. So is Giles, of course, for leaving them behind.

Finally Seeing Red � Willow is wearing the shirt with 78 on it. 78 represents Restless and Restless foreshadows Tara�s death and the stripping of Willow�s Wicca custom revealing the geek underneath. The scene in Willow�s bedroom in her dream � Willow opens the curtain, Tara is bathed in light, Willow in shadows. In the rest of Willow�s dream and later Buffy�s Tara is a spirit guide.

Restless also foreshadows Buffy�s attack, Xander�s drunken behavior similar to Mr. Harris and loss of heart. In Restless Willow has a dream about being stripped of who she is now and becoming the geek she hated in high school with everyone poking fun at her.
(See Rahael�s Joss Whedon commentary on Restless and my Restless essay for more in depth analysis). Since Willow is wearing the shirt � it clearly relates to her. But it also can relate to the other characters.

Buffy � in her restless dream, she is assaulted by the first slayer on her living room floor in almost the same position and manner Spike assaults her in SR. The positions are even the same. She knocks both off her and rejects them. They disappear. Also Spike becomes very black and white in coloring at the end of Seeing Red just like he is at the end of Restless in Giles� dream.

Xander ends up getting his heart torn out because he�s afraid of being like his father. In his dream he sees Willow choking � just like she is at the end of Seeing Red and beginning of Villains over Tara�s body. Xander also is outside with Buffy in her back yard which is as bright as the backyard and swing sets in his dream. They share a brotherly hug. (Big Brother?) And he tells her in the Restless Dream she needs to be careful � you can�t protect yourself from some stuff. Buffy in Seeing Red, gets shot in her back yard after said brotherly hug.

Finally the title � Restless. After Seeing Red � the characters have become Restless, motivated by inner emotions like the primal slayer hunting them in their dreams.

Okay that�s all the numbered T-shirts I saw this year � so I�ll stop here. Hope it wasn�t redundant. Let me know what you think.

;- ) shadowkat

[> Great Post Shadowcat! -- Liana, 10:47:32 05/16/02 Thu

[> Re: Numbers on Tshirts in Bargaining, NA, SR - what they mean (Spoilers to Villains, long) -- redcat, 11:04:46 05/16/02 Thu

Fabulous post, shadowkat!!

Most of the time when I read your work, I feel like we are seeing the same or very similar things
and I'm grateful that you have the grace, skill and time to write out your thoughts. You often
push me to a place beyond where my own critique has gone, especially when I disagree with
you, in what tomfool called �the other 10%� (see his post, on a new thread, above).

THIS post, however, just blew me away! I had not put the episode titles together with the
t-shirt numbers *at all*. What a cool way to see them! I am totally intrigued. Like your own
initial approach, I'd been trying to "work" them re: western and eastern metaphysical numbers
systems, with limited success. But episode titles...hmm.

This opens up a whole new way to think about the notion of self-referentiality in the text of
Buffy, remembering that JW is working in and across the episodic form. It brings to mind Buffy
singing to Sweet in the Bronze in OMWF, that obvious shot where SMG looks directly up into
the camera and almost sneeringly challenges the audience with, �And you can sing along.�

I have to spend time digesting this more before I respond more thoroughly, but just wanted to
say what a great post this is. I�ve been off the board for a few days, finishing up my semester,
and came back to this. WOW!

Oh, and... uh, �kat, your claws are showing. Scratch much?? meeaaoowww.....

�Buffy in Bargaining Part I & II is out of sight but definitely not out of mind. Tara is out of sight during most of the episodes, but ironically not out of willow�s mind until she dies and willow leaves her body unattended and uncared for in a heap on the floor, all thought
of tara driven from her mind by vengeance.�

[> [> Re: Numbers on Tshirts in Bargaining, NA, SR - what they mean (Spoilers to Villains, long) -- shadowkat, 12:37:08 05/16/02 Thu

"Oh, and... uh, �kat, your claws are showing. Scratch much?? meeaaoowww.....

�Buffy in Bargaining Part I & II is out of sight but definitely not out of mind. Tara is out of sight during most of the episodes, but ironically not out of willow�s mind until she dies and willow leaves her body unattended and uncared for in a heap on the floor, all thought"

What can I say - it's that time of month? LOL! And of course
work continues to be tedious and unbearable but that's
another story. ;- )

Thanks - love to read your posts - particularly that post
on William as neasthetic 19th Century male - got my brain
whirling and seeing all sorts of connections between him and Willow.

[> Very interresting observations, great post (as ever) -- Etrangere, 11:36:49 05/16/02 Thu

[> Re: Numbers on Tshirts in Bargaining, NA, SR - what they mean (Spoilers to Villains, long) -- Mike J, 15:53:02 05/16/02 Thu

Just a note [not at all trying to be mean in any fashion], Episode Eleven with Marcy Ross was actually titled "Invisible Girl." None-the-less, GREAT POST! Explains some things. :-)

Mike J.

[> [> Re: response on episode title, no spoilers, but with a footnote (for d'H) ;-) -- redcat, 16:50:53 05/16/02 Thu

Mike,
Perhaps "Invisible Girl" was a working or original script title? I've seen the ep referred to that way before. But both of the two "academic" anthologies of articles about Buffy (*1) list the episode title as "Out of Mind, Out of Sight," as does the FX website for the re-runs. How is it listed on the DVD - anyone know?

1) _Fighting the Forces: What's at Stake in Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ by Rhonda Wilcox & David Laveny, and _Reading the Vampire Slayer_, by Roz Kaveney.

[> [> [> DVD knowledge -- Isabel, 17:16:41 05/16/02 Thu

It's called Out of Mind, Out of Sight in my Buffy Season 1 DVDs.

Another "Villains" questions, with new-and-improved spoilers -- Darby, 06:40:20 05/16/02 Thu

So what they really needed to do was round Warren up and deliver him to the human authorities.

Then what?

What sort of case can be made against the "Trio"? You've got Rusty the security guard, depending on how badly being frozen affected his mind, as an old and shaky witness. What else?

No one saw the armored car robbery - the park manager and guards were knocked out immediately, and the maintenance staff were a good long distance away and wouldn't have very credible stories if they could see what happened. And Jonathan and Andrew were spectators and may not even have been seen.

The link from Warren to Katrina is circumstantial, and unless someone can put him in the bar that night, really weak. The link to Jonathan and Andrew depends upon one of them ratting the other out. I can see Jonathan turning on Warren; I don't know about his turning on Andrew, although vice versa is a strong probability.

Buffy can't testify, unless she is willing to either lie under oath or relate Slayer-related info in public - and who would believe the truth? Any evidence she had collected is tainted, and the Trio "cleaned up" their lairs, from what we've been told.

We've got the shooting, but you run into similar problems - how does the prosecution establish motive without discussing the Slayer? You eyewitness testimony starts to crumble again at that point ("...so why exactly do you think my client wanted to shoot you, Ms. Summers?"). No credible witnesses, no case, unless they get the gun and can connect it to Warren.

My point, let's see, I had a point when I came in here, okay, I've got it, is that Warren would never have been convicted based solely on testimony (Andrew and Warren would have turned the tables on Jonathan, probably), for the same reason that Buffy wouldn't have worked as a witness - how do you tell a Sunnydale jury about Warren's sex-slave device (that Jonathan completed), or how he flipped and opened the armored car, or any of that? The three of them probably would have walked, or Jonathan would have been committed while the other two walked.

We need the Slayer's Handbook. There can't be a blanket prohibition against killing humans, since human justice can't deal with some very dangerous customers - remember when Ethan Rayne almost walked? I'll grant that Buffy may act upon a higher code, but the rest of the crew should be able to set their own rules of warfare (as Giles once referred to what they do). Okay, okay, I've got another question, speaking of the war - how come, now that Buffy and crew have reconnected with Riley's monster squad, they didn't call them in to deal with the Trio?

So I'm just assuming now that Giles is coming back for the finale - not a spoiler, although I've run into rumors. How's he going to fit into this?

[> Re: Another "Villains" questions, with new- and-improved spoilers -- Celia Murphy, 10:58:11 05/16/02 Thu

Good point Darby. You'd never be able to convict Warren in the "real" world.

I'm assuming Giles is coming back too. It's probably to stop Willow from "blowing the town apart". Since all Buffy can do is physically fight her and Xander can really only appeal to her common sense (whatever's left of that), I would assume that Giles would be the only one to invoke magic to stop her. There's no one else that could.

While I agree that the way Willow went about her vengence was a little over the top, it seems to be the only real way to stop Warren. Some posters mention him seemingly remorseful about what happened while I didn't see that at all. He was only trying to talk his way out of a sure death. Didn't work. Heck, Spike showed more remorse in the crypt after the bathroom incident and he doesn't have a soul.

[> Re: What about...? -- Wisewoman, 12:12:17 05/16/02 Thu

Darby said: We've got the shooting, but you run into similar problems - how does the prosecution establish motive without discussing the Slayer? Your eyewitness testimony starts to crumble again at that point ("...so why exactly do you think my client wanted to shoot you, Ms. Summers?"). No credible witnesses, no case, unless they get the gun and can connect it to Warren.

Xander witnessed Warren shoot Buffy. Why would his testimony crumble? Why would he not be a credible witness? I don't get it...

[> [> Re: What about...? -- Celia Murphy, 12:23:22 05/16/02 Thu

<>

I think the point being made was that in order to supply motive for the shooting in a trial, Buffy would have to explain why Warren was trying to kill her. I agree that Xander being a witness along with Buffy, they probably could have not gone to trial at all (in the "real" world).

[> [> Re: What about...? -- Dichotomy, 12:24:04 05/16/02 Thu

I think Darby was saying the prosecution wouldn't be able to establish a motive for Warren's shooting of Buffy without revealing Slayer specifics.

That being said, however, I don't think motive is important given that Xander did witness the shooting. I'm no attorney, but isn't that all that's needed for Warren to be put away, no matter what his reason for the shooting?

[> [> [> Re: What about...? -- Darby, 12:32:33 05/16/02 Thu

My point is if Xander or Buffy took the stand, all the defense attorney has to do is get them to speculate on why Warren would want to shoot Buffy, and they're going to suddenly look like two nutcases and not very credible witnesses. Also, for the higher-level murder charges, motive and intent become wrapped up with the definitions and must be established, or he could get off for a reckless act with minimal time. It has to be established that he went there with the gun intending to shoot her, which demands motive.

Heck, a good prosecutor (not that we could expect any of those in Sunnydale) would see the problems coming in the interview phase and might not even go to trial.

[> [> [> [> Re: What about...? -- Dochawk, 13:20:18 05/16/02 Thu

See above. My rudimentary knowledge of prosecution (plus a discussion about this last week with a friend who is an LA prosecutor in the sexual assaults division). Buffy can't be asked to speculate on anything. They aren't experts. All they can give is facts. The prosecuotr will have plenty of other evidence about motive (remember, Buffy was there when Jonathan and Andrew were arrested, the police know that). And the cameras are still in the SGs possession and they can absolutely traced back to the trio. Nope no porblem with motive or access at all. Warren's best hope would be a psych defense.

[> [> [> [> Re: Don't need ... -- Valhalla, 22:13:27 05/16/02 Thu

Motive for murder/attempted murder (Buffy didn't actually die) isn't an element of the crime the prosecution has to prove.

Besides, Buffy and Xander could, in fairly good faith, say they don't know. They don't really know why TriDork was trying to kill Buffy exactly, apart from Warren's 'arch- nemises' statement.

Actually, most D.A.'s would probably think this case is a breeze. Two eyewitnesses who could testify and would be willing, even eager to testify it was a particular person who pulled the trigger? My only question would be whether his attorney could persuade the DA to plead down from capital murder.

[> [> [> [> [> Warren's Story. -- Darby, 05:25:04 05/17/02 Fri

Here's Warren's defense if they've got the gun (or maybe if they don't)...

He had just picked up the gun for self-defense - Sunnydale is a pretty dangerous town, as everyone knows. He was just walking down the street and when he went to cut through a yard, these people he'd never met before accosted and threatened him (both Buffy and Xander have histories of violence - Buffy's been tied to at least three murders!). He took the gun out to protect himself, but they came after him and it went off (the wild spread of bullets might support this). Manslaughter at worst. That's why you need a motive. You need to establish that he went specifically there with the specific intent to do them harm.

And even then, if you could establish a link, with Buffy's history he can claim that he just brought the gun as protection and they came after him with garden tools. (How'd you like to ask Buffy how many times she had used a stake as a lethal weapon?)

Also keep in mind that Warren could feed questions to his own attorney that would either force B&X to lie or would seriously undermine their credibility.

[> Re: The evidence against Warren -- Dochawk, 13:14:51 05/16/02 Thu

First off, he's dead meat on Tara's murder regardless of anything else, Xander, eyewitness remember. In fact, Buffy, 2nd eyewitness. She wouldn't get asked about her slayerness at all, but if so, there is a reason she won the class protector award the there is the gun and the bullets. he let with the gun but I think it would probably be found (a locator spell for the gun ought to be pretty easy if the cops can't din it). He has motive. Plus all the cameras. He's left a great big trail regarding this

katrina's murder - once the forensics dept looks for it, Warren DNA under her fingernails. patrons at bar saw them leave together on the night of her death. And Jonathan would turn.

Armed robbery - Jonathan and Andrew were arrested at the site, the evidence of a 3rd should have had the cops after Warren from the beginning (the fact that Andrew had the jet pack would further incriminate his partner).

I don't think there is any problem in convicting Warren on 1st degree, special circumstances which is death by injection in california.

[> Re: Another "Villains" questions, with new- and-improved spoilers -- alcibiades, 13:33:41 05/16/02 Thu

That's why I don't buy Buffy's mantra about "we don't kill humans." While that is true most of the time, some time she's got to do it, unless she's going to be on her hero trip forever. Last year, Giles had to kill Ben because Buffy wouldn't sully herself even if it meant destroying the world -- excuse me, that's just wrong. Buffy's desire to be pure is nice but it is not very pragmatic in situations like that.

Spike (the pragmatist) is right -- Buffy still likes the martyrdom, and the purity and what all. But one day, she's going to have to come back from the hero trip.

"The prison doesn't exist that could hold me. Post your guards."

from Prince Richard in the Lion in Winter -- but easily could have applied to Warren in Season 6.

[> [> Warren in Prison -- Dochawk, 14:21:35 05/16/02 Thu

Why couldn't a prison contain Warren? He has no native supernatural abilities. "I build robots". Wouldn't let him near the materials section, but otherwise he would rot in prison until appropriate justice was meted out.

Buffy isn't on a martyr trip, she is trying to stay human. Willow crossed a major line. Buffy would kill a person in self-defense, but she is not judge and jury and she knows it. Remember what Xander told her in Graduation Day Part I, "I don't want to lose you". Buffy is finally reawakening to being the slayer, she doesn't want to lose herself again. We may all think she (or Willow) is justified in killing Warren, but human law doesn't allow it. She recognizes that if she did, she would be reduced to Warren's level

[> [> [> Re: Warren in Prison -- AgnosticSorcerer, 15:18:13 05/16/02 Thu

Warning: Tangents and Ponderings

Someone mentioned the Class Protector award, which I had been thinking about since the first post in this thread. I would love for ME to do a flash-forward of a time where Buffy as the slayer is a recognized and respected authority figure in the town as her generation takes the reigns of adulthood. Her generation knows full and well that Buffy is special, she serves a higher calling, or at least that she's the resident super-hero. Once this time comes, cases similar to Warren's would be taken by Buffy's own credible testimony. Hmph.

Question about Tara in Season 7 -- willtar, 07:59:34 05/16/02 Thu

Hey there. If anybody could help me I would be extremely grateful. The other night after the airing of "Villians", I was on the Bronze chat board and somebody had said that they knew that Tara Benson is signed on for 13 episodes in season 7. If anyone has heard any truth to this PLEASE let me know. I am hoping and praying that it is true. Thank you in advance for any help.
~errin
"bored now"

[> Option -- Anne, 08:32:45 05/16/02 Thu

She signed for an option for 13 episodes, which means she's committed to do as many as that if they ask her to -- but may not do any.

If David Fury was telling the truth at the Succubus Club last night, they may have Tara come back as a ghost or spirit or something, but nothing is set in stone.

I do not know Fury's record for telling the truth in interviews.

[> [> implied *spoiler* for Seeing Red in above post -- Anne, 08:35:33 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> Fingers crossed...(implied "SR" and "Villains" spoilers) -- Rob, 13:18:17 05/16/02 Thu

I love Amber so much, I'd settle for some appearances as a ghost or spirit...The idea that we'd never see Tara again on the show is just too painful to bear.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: Fingers crossed...(implied "SR" and "Villains" spoilers) -- Cheryl, 15:42:12 05/16/02 Thu

It makes sense to me that Tara (ghost, dream, or whatever) would have a major impact on Willow's road to recovery next season. At some point Willow is going to need Tara's forgiveness for her actions.

Cheryl

[> [> [> [> Re: Fingers crossed...(implied "SR" and "Villains" spoilers) -- willtar, 17:07:20 05/16/02 Thu

Thank you all for your input. I have been thinking that she is the only one that could bring Willow back from her "dark place". I don't believe that there is anyone else that could do it. Willow and Tara I believe have one of the strongest bonds I have seen on the show. It will be sad not to watch them grow together. Hopefully, we will have at least a little bit of Tara back in season seven; even if it is just a chance for a decent good-bye. sniffle...sniffle

[> Re: Question about Tara in Season 7 -- LondonGirl In Vacation, 12:30:03 05/16/02 Thu

Hi there, click here for transcripts. I'm on vacation by the way! Egypt rocks! The boat is cool and it's bloody sunny out there!

[> [> FYI: Above poster is "Sloane Parker" -- dubdub, 14:53:37 05/16/02 Thu

One 11th-Hour Announcement and message to shadowkat... -- Darby, 10:16:39 05/16/02 Thu

We're getting close to the NY-Area Board Get-Together!

For info, go here.

There are a few additions and changes noted in red.

Shadowkat, my e-mail updates to you have been bouncing back the past couple of days. I don't think there's anything too critical that you've missed, but I just wanted to let you know...

[> Just keepin' the thread alive... -- Darby, 12:00:15 05/16/02 Thu

[> Att'n: all NYC area participants heading to Bronxville -- cjl, 12:37:16 05/16/02 Thu

Shadowkat and I will be meeting at 11:00 a.m. Sunday morning at the Hudson News stand opposite Tracks 20 and 21 in Grand Central Station. Anyone who wants to meet up and take the 11:23 Metro North train out to Bronxville is welcome to join us.

[> Re: One 11th-Hour Announcement and message to shadowkat... -- shadowkat, 12:58:28 05/16/02 Thu

Please lock dang it! Try the email address above. It's home.
I think I accidently gave you my work one which has always been problematic - ugh.

[> Dum de dum de dum...keepin' the thread alive... -- Darby, 16:39:16 05/16/02 Thu

[> "Stayin' Alive!" -- Isabel, 16:42:52 05/16/02 Thu

I think if I tried to sing that even Lorne would kick me out of Caritas...

[> Tap tap tap tap Kching tap tap tap tap.... -- Darby, 19:01:55 05/16/02 Thu

[> Wow, color me jealous. Y'all got html and every damn thing. -- yuri, 00:30:14 05/17/02 Fri

[> Now I've got "Stayin' Alive" stuck in my head... (hears guitar riff) -- Darby, 05:12:31 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> Doing my bit for international relations - keep the fai... er, thread! -- Marie, 06:12:48 05/17/02 Fri

[waily-voice] I want to come!

[> One more oughtta do it... -- Darby, 11:55:41 05/17/02 Fri

[> I am completely unspoiled. Will I stay that way if I come? -- Tillow hoping the answer it yes:), 12:29:41 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> I think most of us have come out against spoilage. -- Darby, 14:08:07 05/17/02 Fri

And you can certainly make your desires known in conversation. I don't think anyone will spoil you if they know not to.

[> [> I know nothing outside of tv guide description and my own spec -- shadowkat, 15:31:57 05/17/02 Fri

[> The **** will come out - Tomorrow! Bet yer bottom dollar... -- Darby, 09:24:49 05/18/02 Sat

I couldn't think of anything to fit the one-syllable rhythm that wasn't at least somewhat insulting...

[> Yay!!! Can't wait!!! -- Rob, 18:16:21 05/18/02 Sat

And I'm bringing my best friend, Justin, who I ushered into Buffy fandom about two years ago. He's the one who got me that full cast-autographed picture for my 21st birthday.

Anyway, can't wait!!!

Rob

[> [> hey, rob--how about bringing that picture?! -- anom, 23:11:22 05/18/02 Sat

Me, I'll try to hook up w/shadowkat & cjl at Grand Central. And I'd better get to bed now if I want to get up early enough to make it!

[> [> [> Darn, read this message too late...I'll bring it to the next one, if we have one. -- Rob, 16:23:25 05/19/02 Sun

*SPOILER* Observations Regarding Spike's Request in Villians -- ANGELINA, 11:03:09 05/16/02 Thu

I've been away from the Board for a few days, and I know that this observation must have come up, since everyone here is so astute. I was watching the scene with Spike and the "Demon" (who was that Demon anyhow) in the cave in Africa again, and it dawned on me that from their entire conversation, never once, was it explicitly said that Spike wanted the chip removed to become the Evil Vampire Big Bad again. It was repeated several times, by Spike and the Demon, that Spike wanted to "go back to the way he was BEFORE the chip", but they DO NOT SAY HOW FAR BACK! Could it be that Spike's wish is to go back to his life as William before he was bit? In essense to become human again? He kept repeating that Buffy thought she was better than him, and how when he got back to Sunnydale how everything was going to be different. He had attitude, and at face value, one would assume he was talking about becoming Evil once again. But, I think the writers were extemely careful in keeping the dialog totally ambiguous in that scene. I think he wants to have an opportunity to win Buffy's love and respect the "normal human" way, I believe he loves her that much. It will make for a FANTASTIC storyline if it is true. I got the chills thinking about the possibilities - will Buffy STILL reject him? Or will he reject HER? So if this has been addressed, someone PLEASE give me a hint as to where I might pick up that thread on this Board. Thank you all!

[> Re: *SPOILER* My Impression -- Wisewoman, 11:39:20 05/16/02 Thu

I don't think this has been addressed, but I wondered the same thing. Spike spoke about the chip several times, but I wouldn't be surprised if the demon's intent is to trick him into thinking he'll get the chip out, only to take him farther back and make him human again.

Should be interesting...

;o)

[> [> Re: *SPOILER* My Impression -- dream of the consortium, 12:00:30 05/16/02 Thu

Exactly the impression I got. Fits with the "be careful what you wish for" thing - and that demon definitely seemed to find some humor in the whole business.

[> [> [> Re: *SPOILER* My Impression - I will Remember You -- Dochawk, 13:02:49 05/16/02 Thu

I agree, this is exactly what's going to happen (in mymind anyway). Spike is obsessed enough to totally emasculate himeslf by accident. And remember we have seen the result at least once before - I Will remember you, where the demon's bite turned Angel human. And Angel lost all his powers adn like Riley before him knew he became a danger to Buffy when he was in that position. He gave up humanity and Buffy's love to become demon again. I think Spike will make the opposite choice (which makes it a far more interesting storyline) and not accept the offer to become a vamp again (I mean all Spike will have to do once the chip has lost his poweer and he becomes human is get revamped, Dru is very good at that). But, if he thinks Buffy could love William, he is sadly mistaken (again, works out just like every other one of Spike's schemes then doesn't it?)

[> [> [> Re: *SPOILER* My Impression/fut spec -- alcibiades, 13:06:23 05/16/02 Thu

Spike's an idiot.

He KNOWS magic has unintended consequences.
He KNOWS spells have to be specific.

He's too smart to have fallen into that black hole that the entire audience saw a mile off.

I bet next week he comes back from the nebulous ether cloud his soul has been haning out on for the last 100 years (or perhaps from hell) and we have to spend a lot of time next year dealing with the trauma. He's goin' have ISSUES. And, gee, Buffy's already been there, so she'll have special empathy for his case.

I wonder if he'll do the Nietzschean thing next year and adopt a mask -- dominoes anyone -- of being the opposite of what he is. Will he still play at being the big bad when he ain't no more cause he can't bear being a piffling human?

[> [> [> [> Spike/William, Willow, and the greyness of evil -- Morgane, 16:33:55 05/16/02 Thu

I'm not sure Spike would became William again if the demon makes him human like Angel. If you remember well, Angel didn't became Liam when we was transformed in I will Remember You, he was the same old Angel, plus the sex and the ice cream thing of course. If Spike would be transformed in human in the future, he might not became the british poet he was, but more of his old self, except with a pulse and the possibility to be perseved as a man for once (and he really wasn't in his William time, was he?). I hope that will happen too, but not necessarily because of the whole Spike/Buffy relationship. All the episode from season 3 (Lie to me) to season 6, where really about the grey part of evil. How much it is impossible to categorize people in good and evil section, how much it is more complicated than that! how much it is hard, because people aren't what they seem to be, and also because they change, all the time.
Spike becoming a human would be a great conclusion to the whole serie, because it would force all the characters (and especially Buffy) to understand that. Fighting evil isn't hard because evil characters are strong and determined, but because you have to decide wether someone is or isn't bad, and if he is, does he have good reasons to act this way. This point also links to the whole Black Willow story and also the whole vengance thing. Is it justified? Or even helpful? I mean, I never knew anyone who vengance help make feel better. We have Willow, Buffy, Spike, Xander and Anya on this path already. I think, if the writers go in these ways, the next season have great potential, I just hope they won't use it too much this year because it's a bit late for subjects as complex as that.

[> [> Re: *SPOILER* A supporting thought... -- dubdub, 18:05:51 05/16/02 Thu

The summer hiatus would also give JM an opportunity to let his natural brown hair grow out so he could play William without that very poofy (i.e. "big hair," not a gay reference) wig.

;o)

[> Re: *SPOILER* Observations Regarding Spike's Request in Villians -- Darby, 12:24:30 05/16/02 Thu

Currently in Archive 2, near the top, under

Spike's conversation with the demon (Villians spoilers and infected spec)

several similar topics are discussed.

[> spoilery speculations about 'Careful what you wish for...' -- Kitt, 14:33:27 05/16/02 Thu

Consider... Spike walks into the sunlight, a ?new? man. His first reaction - "Oh S**t!!"
First coherent thought after he gets over the initial shock - needs help, can't possibly confront Buffy like this, hasn't the foggiest where Dru is, and who can help him? Who would help him? Scoobies are out, they'ld tell Buffy. The last time he saw Angel was when he had him tortured, don't think he's going to LA for help anytime soon. BUT... there is a certian Englishman who maintains a flat in Bath, whose life Spike has saved a time or two, with whom he seemed to be getting on pretty well (at least he did in Bargaining), who if nothing else is sure to have at least a professional interest in a man who used to be a vampire, now, isn't there?
Can't you just see Spike turning up on Giles' doorstep again, looking even more pathetic than he did in Pangs?

[> [> ReFuture Spoilery -- Dochawk, 14:52:18 05/16/02 Thu

Interesting. I don't know if you've heard, but some scenes from the first few episodes next year are being filmed in England

[> [> [> Re: ReFuture Spoilery -- Kitt, 14:59:54 05/16/02 Thu

hadn't heard, but doesn't it just make sense and make everything fit? Spike being trained as a watcher, all those rumors....
{gleeful gleam in eyes, rubs hands together)

[> [> [> could be that... -- Solitude1056, 22:55:42 05/16/02 Thu

Remember Nora Fury's comment about the "shamans who don't exist anymore" b/c of their dark magic use? Could be that the only ones who could really bring Willow back out of her darkness (in terms of magic) would be the Watchers. Wouldn't be surprised for Joss to pull a fast one like that on us, even though as I type it, I just as quickly think, "hmm, Buffy might object, cause then the Watchers would not only have the option to call in favor repayment, but would also potentially have Willow hostage"! Hmm.

Anyway, just meant there's possibly more than one reason the cameras would be in England...

When things are at their worst... -- Spike Lover, 12:32:49 05/16/02 Thu

we see the sg at their best.

I just wonder how Spike will react when he returns to SunnyD and finds evil (Vamp) Willow. (W/ or W/O the sexy clothes?)

From reading the posts below, I recall how he reacted when X & Giles described FAith to him. Spike was intrigued. Will he be afraid of Willow? Or will the (newly restored Bad- Ass) fall in love with her? I am curious.

Also, another bathroom comment... I remembered that the bathroom scene of SR was not the only bathroom scene we had this year. We had Willow's shower scene in Wrecked- where she takes a shower like someone who has been violated. (a willing participant in magical date-rape w/ Rack?) What could all of this bathing/running water symbolism mean?

[> Re: When things are at their worst... -- dream of the consortium, 12:55:28 05/16/02 Thu

Maybe a desire to cleanse themselves - get rid of the dirt they feel they've been rolling in? Could tie in with the skin imagery in the Villians - they want to wash off what is actually inside them?

Personally, I hope they devote a little time to Spike's reaction to Tara's unfortunate demise. Spike always seemed to like Tara, and she always treated him with respect. Of course, the response will depend on who comes back - Big Bad Spike, confused Spike, or William.

[> [> BR weirdness as metaphor in Angel -- alcibiades, 13:17:38 05/16/02 Thu

There was a lot of bathroom imagery in Angel this week. Holtz coming out of the br and the toilet actually flushing after him. The spiritual colonic and Gunn made a witticism about Connor's emissions from hell.

Admittedly this connection is very slim, but since ME brought up the Divine Comedy all by their loneselves, there is a reference, in some Canto in Hell, toward the end I think, about a devil farting and it being the strangest trumpet call Dante ever heard. So possibly it was meant to heighten the hell imagery.

Anyone got other, likelier thoughts?

[> We've been calling her "Black Willow". -- SingedCat, 13:01:36 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> 'Black Willow'. Oooh, I like that.... -- Masq, 16:14:36 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> I dunno, to me it sounds too much like that old Cheech and Chong routine "Black Lassie" :-) -- A8, 16:29:16 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Really? It sounds to me like "Black widow"--a more apt comparison?? -- Masq, 09:07:43 05/17/02 Fri

[> Re: bathroom symbolism... -- A8, 16:49:14 05/16/02 Thu

It seems to me, that the bathroom is the place where (next to being sound asleep in bed) a person is the most vulnerable. It's the place where a person gets naked the most on a daily basis, it's the place where we tend to put on our morning game faces (the masks of the public personas we carry with us to face the outside world) and the place where we strip off the build up of the day and resume our true identities at night. It's the place we are most likely to be caught with our pants down. It's also one of the worst places to be trapped when being pursued by someone (see Psycho or the Shining).

To many people it is a sanctuary to collect one's thoughts or to relax with a good soak (or even good reading while doing other things). And of course, it tends to be the only room in virtually every building or dwelling certain to have a mirror with which, unless you are a vampire, you must catch your own reflection. Even the least vain among us would have to make a special effort not to look at ourselves while conducting our business at the bathroom sink.

I don't know, just a few thoughts. Okay, thinking way too much about the insignificant again.

[> Personally, I thought Willow was plenty sexy in what she was wearing in Villains -- Apophis, 17:14:09 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Personally, I thought Willow was plenty sexy in what she was wearing in Villains -- Dru, 09:46:27 05/17/02 Fri

Amen!

[> [> [> And isn't it the same outfit she wore in DT, when she met Tara outside the Magic Box? -- Dyna, 10:35:09 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> I think so, the jacket at least. Does that mean something? -- Ixchel, 18:26:32 05/17/02 Fri

All seriousness aside . . . -- purplegrrl, 12:48:56 05/16/02 Thu

I've been reading the posts about Willow's dark and disturbing behavior and needed something silly to counterbalance (not diminish everyone's excellent efforts, just *me* trying to get out of my own "dark place").

This is a game we used to play when I was a kid: You search out businesses or locations with your name on them -- I had a bakery, my brother had a day care center, my mom had a street, and my grandfather had a hamburger joint. I thought we could do this for the characters of BtVS, and even AtS. The only stipulation is they must be real businesses or locations.

Here's one to start us off:
Manfred, Pooky, Toot, & Spike
This is a design company I saw listed on an episode of "House Beautiful" on A&E. (Can you imagine Spike as an interior decorator?? Well, okay, maybe it's not such a stretch. He did a good job decorating his crypt and Spike has always been into creature comforts.)

Take it and run.
:-)

[> Re: All seriousness aside . . . -- Deeva, 14:22:29 05/16/02 Thu

Here are my contributions to the silliness.

Spike's Coffee & Teas (He always did like a nice cuppa) on 19th St.

Giles Florist (Who knew that he could put together a bouquet underneath all that tweed?) on Mission Street

Angel Maid Services (A Heavenly cleaning?) saw an ad in a neighborhood weekly

These are all in San Francisco btw.

[> [> ya beat me to the punch, I was all excited about having a Giles. I gues we just have a great town! -- yuri (who rates cities by their Buffyness) (j/k), 00:37:37 05/17/02 Fri

[> Re:Buffy Businesses in Canada ;o) -- Wisewoman, 14:35:06 05/16/02 Thu

Buffy West Indian Take-Out and Buffy's Longshots (?) are both in Ontario. Buffy's Pub is in Sooke, BC, and Buffy's Service Station is in Alberta.

[> [> Re:Buffy Businesses in Canada ;o) -- Wolfhowl3, 19:47:08 05/16/02 Thu

Oz's Used Music, used to be in my home town of Milton Ont. (It's not there anymore, does that still count?)

Jackson, Markus and Finn, a law firm, also from Milton.

Wolfie

[> Re: All seriousness aside in GMT -6 -- pr10n, 15:09:00 05/16/02 Thu

In Salt Lake City there's a place called "Riley's Rod & Relic Repair" and I can't make up anything that good.

[> In Denver... -- Dichotomy, 17:06:10 05/16/02 Thu

Before forming Angel Investigations, Angel tried and failed at several businesses:
Angel's Beauty Salon and Day Spa (The hours were a bit treacherous for him and no one would come to a Night Spa, so..)
Angels Bail Bonds (Seemed like a good idea, but he found that he just had to go and kill half of those he got out on bail since they were demons anyway, so...)
Angels Excavators (Problems with inadvertantly digging up the undead or disturbing ancient burial grounds, so...)
Angel's Taqueria (Since he doesn't really eat, he didn't notice the food quality declined until it was too late, so...)
Angel's Nails (too much filing, not enough fighting)

Others were:
Warren Tech Preschool Center (building Pleasurebots for the preschooler--they don't make you take a nap or eat your broccoli, and will listen to Barney songs endlessly)
Spike Radiator and Air Conditioning Repair
Tara Performing Arts High School
Harmony Chiropractic (Giving you better flexibility through vampire strength)
Fred's Fine Meats (So that's what they do with the dead demons who don't turn into dust or melt into a puddle of goo!)
Gunn Automotive
Lindsey's Hair Designer
Wes's Welding
Phillip J. Wolfram, attorney (Yikes!)

[> In San Jose... -- cynesthesia, 03:48:32 05/17/02 Fri

The first one isn't exactly a business: Spike and Mike's Annual Festival of Animation.

The ones for Willow seem like they might come in handy:
Willow Insurance
Willow Chiropractic
Willow Donuts (baking cookies ain't gonna do it this time)

Buffy Bail Bonds

Spike Technologies, Inc (specializing in chips perhaps?)

Angel is a busy guy:
Angels in the Attic
Angel's Flowers and Gifts
Angel's Mobile Catering Truck Repair
Angel's Montessori Preschool
Angel's Plastic & Neon Co.
Angel's World (hey, the guy thinks big)

Riley's Insurance Agency

Harris Janitorial

Faith Auto Body Shop
Faith In Action

purplegrrl, do you mind if I post your game idea at another board?

[> [> Harris Janitorial - HAHA, poor Xander! -- MayaPapaya9, 16:35:22 05/17/02 Fri

[> Re: In Detoit -- Die Totschla:gerin, 09:12:32 05/17/02 Fri

Hmmm. The gang's keeping busy in the greater Detroit area:

An Angel's Touch Salon (maybe he shouldn't touch...)
Angel Eyes Child Care (he's got some experience)
Angel Land
Angel Nails
Angel Party Store II (wonder what happened to the first one)

most disturbing - a listing simply for:

Angelus

Buffy's Secretarial Service (moving up!)
Buffy's Place

Willow Tree (spead beneath...no comment)
Willow Aviation (aircraft optional?)
Willow Development Company

Harris & Son Auto Spring, Inc. (no wonder he hates his father)
Harris Adult Education
Harris Enterprises (nature bar distribution?)
Harris Pest Control (don't remember this from season IV)
Harris Tax Service (oh, I don't think so)
Harris Construction (I guess he really is good at it)

Tara's Candyland
Tara's Unique Cleaning Service (unique all right)

Spike's Lawn Service (nighttime lawn service?)
Spike's Door Service (strangely appropriate)

Gile's Auto Body (all the work on that Citron)
Gile's Family Restaurant

Dawn's Dollar Place (I didn't know minors could incorporate in Michigan...)

Oz's Music Environment (Yep)

Joyce African Supermarket (wow)
Joyce Curl Shop
Salon of Beauty by Joyce

Riley's Pharmaceuticals (again, wow)

Anya's Bridal Salon (I guess she got over it)

Clem's Inland Marine (not kittens, but...)
Clem's Towing Service

Gunn & Associates

Fred's Furniture Liquidation (so that's where all the hotel furniture went)
Fred's Key Shoppe & Locksmith
Fred's Screen Printing (for all those flyers)

Expression of Glory Hair Salon (doing what she knows best)

Holtz Combustion Service
Holtz Group, Ltd.

Darla's Elite Limousine (explains the dark tinting)

Adam's Rid A Pest

And my favorite:

Adam's Nest Child Car Center

[> In my area of Upstate NY -- Isabel, 18:44:31 05/17/02 Fri

We have some of the gang being quite busy...

Angels Beauty Spa
Angel�s News
Angel�s Trumpet (Maybe we don�t have to hear him sing anymore...)

Clement Construction
Clement Frame & Art Shop, Inc. (Busy guy)

Dawn Homes Inc. (Turning to real estate to make money I guess)

Fred the Butcher (Ack, Now she�s really annoyed)

Harmony Trading Co.
Harmony Veterinary Clinic (Scary)

Harris Beach and Wilcox (Law Offices)

Jonathan�s Restaurant (No more evil trio for him)

Joyce�s Log Cabin

Walsh�s Trophy Shop (What kind of trophies? It doesn't say.)

Warren Builders (Specializing in Robots?)
Warren Electric Supply, Inc.

Willow Inn (She�s not Out? ;))
Willow Run Cattery (There�s Miss Kitty!)

[> Clem business! :) -- Belladonna, 14:02:38 05/18/02 Sat

Tee hee...Clem's Towing, Ryan-Clem Funeral Home (how appropriate), Clem and Bobbie's Dry Cleaners, and Clem's African Hair Braiding. All in the Chicagoland area!

Why the bash on Willow? (spoilers through end of S6) -- C.C. Green, 14:59:06 05/16/02 Thu

I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but . . .

I've been reading the board and it seems that everyone is bashing Willow based on this one episode. Yes, she kills Warren. Yes, she enjoyed it and took pleasure in it. Yes, it was wrong.

But what I don't get is that based on one act of aggressive fury, people are bailing on a much-loved character. I don't agree on what she's done, but I've seen my friends do a lot of things I don't agree with (albeit not murder) and I wouldn't bail that quickly. I can see Xander and Buffy forgiving her, just as Buffy would forgive Giles for killing Ben. Whether she'll be able to forgive herself, I don't know. Maybe that "Tabula Rasa" spell could come in handy :- )

All I'm saying is give it a chance before writing her off as the Big Bad. Willow is down a dark path, one she doesn't intend on coming back from. But Xander and Buffy intend on bringing her back. If they don't bring her back and she is the Big Bad next season, it would be difficult for her to be killed by Buffy. Remember "Doppleganged" where Willow said, "I can't just kill her" and Buffy says, "I know, neither can I."

We all have a dark side to each of us. It's really a question of what brings it out in each of us. I think Joss is just exploring that inner demon in Willow.

[> I have seen no bashing of Willow here. -- Ete, 15:08:13 05/16/02 Thu

[> [> Re: I have seen no bashing of Willow here. -- AgnosticSorcerer, 15:50:46 05/16/02 Thu

Who's bashing Willow? I have not given up on Willow (nor will I ever) and I do not believe anyone else on this board has expressed such, but the fact remains that she is the big bad this season. Although she is the big bad, she's not the same type of big bad that previous big bads have been because they were evil by nature whereas Willow is *dark* by circumstance. Redemption is the key.

[> [> [> Re: I have seen no bashing of Willow here. -- maddog, 08:46:33 05/17/02 Fri

I think she's just such an unconventional Big Bad that people don't feel like it's her.

[> I haven't noticed any bashing, but let me suggest... -- Ixchel, 16:00:11 05/16/02 Thu

Reading Rahael's beautiful post "My thoughts are all a case of knives" (I can't praise this post enough) and Caroline's excellent thoughts in her Willow thread for some understanding insights into Willow's character.

Don't worry, if there is any extreme bashing the Buffy Character Anti-Bashing League (I believe that's the name) headed by Rob will put a stop to it. :)

Ixchel
BCABL member?

[> Re: Why the bash on Willow? (spoilers through end of S6) -- Dochawk, 16:32:22 05/16/02 Thu

Well perhaps it is because in the eyes of alot of us she has crossed a line that isn' permissible. She has killed a human. You may be able to justify this act in your head because of Warren's own evil, but many of us can't. in the real world, Willow is guilty of a capital crime and what she has done goes beyond what is acceptable in our moral compass. What Willow did had nothing to do wth justice and everything to do with vengeance and it just isn't acceptable.

I am shocked at the number of people here who find her behavior acceptable. And its going to get worse obviously. Its bad enough that Willow will never see any type of human justice for herself, but that she will be forgiven beause she is possessed (which is what Fury suggested last night). ME is going to have to do an amazing sales job for us to believe that Willow is anything but an evil murderer at heart now.

[> [> Is that bashing? -- Isabel, 16:58:02 05/16/02 Thu

Stating Willow is a murderer is not a lie. Believing that Willow intends to kill again, there's strong evidence to back this up. Willow has gone evil is a fact. Calling a character a murderer, when they've actually committed murder, is not a bash.

There is no way back to kittens and puppies for her. She has crossed a moral boundary here. I agree with Dochawk that ME will have to do a hell of a sales job to get me to believe she is not a murderer too. Vigilante killings are still murder. I don't know how it will be resolved, but Willow has earned the right to say "Hi" to Faith from inside the pokey next season.

[> [> [> Heck, Superman is a murderer -- Apophis, 17:11:19 05/16/02 Thu

He used kryptonite to kill three alternate reality Kryptonian criminals after they wiped out an entire Earth (alternate as well). He also suffered for it. Just because a hero crosses a line doesn't mean he or she can't come back.
People weren't so riled up when Angel assisted in the murder of all those lawyers. I think the reason is that people expect such actions from Angel, who's quite frankly done worse. Seeing sweet innocent Willow rip a man's skin off for fun is somewhat jarring.

[> [> [> [> I'm not sure... -- Isabel, 17:50:22 05/16/02 Thu

I don't read comics, so I can't tell if Superman crossed an ethical line there. Plus there's the whole alternate reality thing. As one of the few survivors of Krypton, he may have the right to be judge, jury and executioner to fellow Kryptonians. Plus, if those criminals were posing a direct threat to sentient life when he killed them, it could be considered killing them in the line of duty. Don't know.

I didn't say that Willow can't be redeemed, I just said it wasn't going to be easy to get me to buy it. Faith turned herself in for her crimes and allows the law to keep her in prison. She realized that she's culpable for her actions. I can believe she's earning her redemption. Like I said, ME has to make it believable. (Not that I'm hard to convince.) ;)

As for Angel and the Lawyer Buffet, maybe my memory is faulty, but I seem to remember quite a lot of controversy about that little act. There were a lot of people on the board yelling "Go, Angel go!" and there were a lot of people shocked that he committed murder with a soul. (I was personally horrified that there were 2 waiters in the room, who presumably died with the lawyers. So Holland Manners made sure he only hired 'evil caterers' I don't think so.)

[> [> [> [> [> Angel ... -- Earl Allison, 18:15:07 05/16/02 Thu

Not to hijack the thread, but had Angel only wanted the lawyers to suffer, he would have waited for Drusilla and Darla to finish, and staked them.

By burning them and LEAVING them to heal, he is responsible for every death they caused from that night forward.

And frankly, the only ones Angel drop-dead KNEW were evil, or even remotely so, were Lilah, Lindsay, and Manners -- we'd never seen the others before.

I still contend that, at this point, Willow's actions are far more easily understood and accepted than Faith's. Note, that's AT THIS POINT, she can still cross a line by hurting/killing innocents or friends.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Running... -- Valhalla, 21:54:23 05/16/02 Thu

I think there is one difference between Willow's and Angel's actions. Buffy brings it up herself - there are laws and human justice systems for dealing with Warren. Warren killed Tara and tried to kill Buffy with a gun. (I think ME purposely chose a run-of-the-mill human weapon for Tara's death). There are laws against it, the police can arrest him for it, he can be convicted for it, and punished for it, all without the supernatural powers of the Slayer or Willow.

Angel was dealing with humans, yes, but humans heavy into using dark magic to commit their crimes, and particularly their crimes against Angel. He couldn't resort to the court system. 'They brought back my dead vamp girlfriend as a human to make me go all vamp-face myself' probably wouldn't fly (although it's LA - maybe. Just kidding). His one connection to the police was tenuous -- we saw that when Kate began trolling for 'weird' crimes, she was shunned and mocked by her colleagues - if even her fellow cops wouldn't believe what she knew, the rest of the L.A. cops, the D.A. and a judge certainly wouldn't.

One of the interesting things about the BtVS/Angel worlds is the fact that they have to construct their own rules about when their actions are good or evil when dealing with the supernatural, because there's no other choice, except to do nothing. But with Warren, that wasn't the case.

I'm not actually condoning Angel's actions; first, the 'evil caterers' (lol) point above is pretty valid, and second, even if Angel can't call on ordinary, slogging human systems of justice, that doesn't mean he can't try to follow the general principles as much as he is able. Our boring, un- supernatural system of justice wouldn't throw every employee of Enron into jail because of the crimes committed by some of the employees; instead each one has to be evaluated and judged individually, and justice meted out in measure with individual wrong doing. Angel didn't know that everyone in the room had done evil. And even if Angel had pretty good evidence that everyone (including waiters) had (overcharging for canapes?), not all bad acts deserve capital punishment.

[> [> But, what if . . . ? (spoilers through end of S6) - - C.C. Green, 20:23:41 05/16/02 Thu

while I can see your point about crossing the line, I don't believe this is really Willow, at least the Willow we've seen the past six years.

Just speculation, but exactly what did Rack do to her in exchange for the "highs" she was getting? While it appeared the first time that it was a violation of sorts (because of the shower scene), what about the second she went with Dawn? Could this be the "possession" that Fury mentions?

As for the Faith comparisons, I can't see the parellel here. Faith accidently killed the guy but once the blood was on her hands, she lusted after it, conciously continuing her spree. Blind fury is driving Willow and I'm sure she'll pay in one form or another next season.

[> [> Re: Why the bash on Willow? (spoilers through end of S6) -- maddog, 09:07:14 05/17/02 Fri

I think it's because of the non reality of it all. In real life Willow wouldn't be as embraced. People would feel bad for her...but jail time would be a given. This isn't the real world though. So the idea of a little guilt free vengence isn't dismissed so quickly...cause that's the only place where you can live out something you know may feel good, but isn't right in reality.

I for one, think Warren got what he deserved. Sure, it should have come after a trial and jail time...but he probably would have gotten at the very least a life sentence(and possibly the death penalty). Willow just sped up the execution time. In real life of course I wouldn't condone it...but that's the fun of a tv drama.

You act like Willow's gone past the point of no return. Look, she made a mistake...a huge mistake. But people aren't perfect...and they get involved in stuff they can't handle...but they can be brought back. If you don't give up on them that is. I mean, if Faith is possibly redeemable then Willow sure as hell is.

[> [> Re: Why the bash on Willow? (spoilers through end of S6) -- Drucilla, 09:18:20 05/17/02 Fri

Is Buffy a Murderer? She has killed a fantastic amount of beings since the show first aired. You say Willow is a Murderer because she killed a human, but is Murder only a crime if it's against a human? I mean, what if Buffy killed Clyde (skin demon) or Rafe (warlock)? What about when she "killed" the Robot that was dating her mom? No one considered her a murder. Warren himself was a multiple Felon (multiple theft, attempted rape, Murder, attempted murder, stalker, framed Buffy for the murder of his ex- girlfriend, and mentally tortured Buffy with various spells)
And you know that the Sunnydale Police was not going to catch him. Why was Willow killing him not justified, but Buffy killing the murders (vamps ect) acceptable? She says that Warren was human, there for should be punished by human means. And yet he used the Dark arts for many of his crimes. Why should Willow have not killed him?

[> [> [> The Difference between Buffy and Willow and Faith - - Dochawk, 10:11:36 05/17/02 Fri

No, Buffy is not a murderer. Its the whole point of the show, that tehre are mystical beings that are dangerous to the human population and Buffy ahs been born to kill those beings. Its a different set of rules. Buffy tells us this herself in the episode, she doesn't have the right to kill another human (except in self-defense). And in the past Slayers killed all demons, een if they were good, there was no wrong position there. Remember when Riley finds out about Oz? The Initiative believes there are no good demons, but Oz grays the picture. But humans have their own laws adn Buffy as well as every other member of the SG needs to live within them. Thats why she wants to turn herself in in Dead Things. Its why when Faith accidentally kills Alan (the mayor's aide) Buffy wanted her to go to the police and its why Faith is in jail for the murder of the archeologist. Human crimes deserve human justice. Willow has committed a human crime.

In fact, I would argue that Willow has gone much futher already than Faith ever did. It may be more "justifiable" and Faith did torture Wesley, and she went after Buffy in a vengeful way, but she never put it all together the way Willow did (and thats just so far, what if Willow kills Andrew and jonathan? they certainly aren't guilty of any capital crimes). We were having this debate in chat yesterday. I would place Willow's actions among the most evil we have seen in the Jossverse (Angelus murdering Jenny Calander and murdering his own family are certainly up there, but they are the actions of a vampire, in terms of human acivity only Angel's leaving Dru and Darla locked with the lawyers [and come to think of it, why didn't the lawyers fight, I mean they had stakes (chair legs, table legs, pencils)and they knew how to kill vamps] seems to me to come close.

[> [> Re: Why the bash on Willow? (spoilers through end of S6) -- O'Cailleagh, 19:55:46 05/17/02 Fri

Hey Doc, what was that about Willow being possessed? Was anything else said about this?

[> [> [> Re: Why the bash on Willow? (spoilers through end of S6) -- AgnosticSorcerer, 23:26:53 05/17/02 Fri

Personally, I feel Warren got what he deserved. Warren was far more evil than Willow and far more evil than any demon could possibly ever be because he had a *soul*. Demons commit atrocities because it is in their nature whereas Warren committed monstrosities because he wanted to.

Someone posted a dissertation of sorts from Joss about the nature of the human soul and demons. The impression I got from it was that humans have a natural inclination to do good for the *sake of doing good*, whereas demons are lowly, self-serving creatures who have a natural inclination towards evil. Sure, there are those such as Spike who do good, but not for the *sake of doing good*, but to please Buffy... to please those they love. Warren, a human who has a soul--who was born with a natural inclination towards doing good for the *sake of good* chose to do evil. And I think that makes him worse than a demon because evil is in their nature. It was not in Warren's nature.

Willow, I believe, is evil by circumstance. I do not necessarily condone her actions, but I understand them. Her reaction was a natural human reaction although it was not justice in the sense that we as a society understand it. Someone said it before, Willow is in a *blind* fury. I would think legally, she could claim temporary insanity.

My thoughts on Villains*spoilers* -- EMCEE with references and note to Rufus, 23:35:53 05/16/02 Thu

Notes:
Dillow=Dark Willow penned by Ozmandayus
Hopefully this is appropriate for this board.

First things first,I thought a few things in this ep were brilliant. The focus was on the Villains and man did Marti show us a variety of them in Warren, Spike and Dillow (thanks Oz). I liked seeing these three together in this way.

Mostly what I want to talk about is Warren. Warren was central in every scene and Adam Busch (sp?) carried this ep well, the man has big talent!

The presentation of Warren�s evil status was interesting. Warren was played against the typical baddies, a vampire and Rack. He and his troupe the �Trio� were basically laughed at through out the ep by these demons when he sot validation and recognition from these sources. I thought the �band� quote from Rack was particularly funny. I could see as the ep progressed, Warren�s notions of grandeur, pop like balloons and fizzle limply on the floor. BUT Someone (from the Buffy Cross and Stake Spoiler Board) the other day posted all of what Warren and his troop had done to the SG and it was quite formidable, what with time shifting, the murder-rap and killing Buffy this ep. I would agree with the poster that Warren and crew have perhaps done the most damage to the SG than any other Big Bag before. Things that have made me go mmmm, thats for sure, more on this later.

I have also been thinking about the dialogue in the scenes with Warren. The Vampire said something to the effect that the Slayer would gut him. Dillow (Oz, thanks) made a speech to Warren with the same thoughts in mind. She said that Tara�s insides were torn up inside her with the bullet. The intra-ep continuity of these statements was either a brilliant move by Marti or perhaps she just ran out of ideas. The best dialogue of the whole ep in the scenes with Warren came when he was talking with Rack. He said something to the effect of �I don�t need to talk about my skin problems� belittling Dillow�s (thanks again Oz) position of danger to him. This has caused many a giggle for me.

I have had the words to a song in my head since this ep too. �May the punishment fit the crime� from The Mikado. I think that Warren�s death was really quite poetic because it fit his profile. Really, it was a shallow death for a shallow man.

Since the ep I have been thinking along with the above about evil? Why have I been thinking about this? Well comparing Warren, Dillow (thank you Oz) and Spike in this ep and from reading up on Shadowkats, Spike and Willow and the Heart of Darkness piece quite a bit of late due to Ramses 2 post about threes and metaphors.

Go here to find the work of Shadowkats that I mention. On a side note: She is a goddess of great thought and a party for the mind!

http://www.geocities.com/shadowkatbtvs/index.html

To follow up on this train of thought here is an interesting site I found about Conrad�s Heart of Darkness which has made my brain boil and burble in reference to Shadowkats work.

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~csicseri/index.htm

These thoughts are not very clear in my head but I will say that all three characters have characteristics of both Marlow and Kurtz. I have been giggling a fair bit about this thought in conjunction with the above poopoo of Warren�s parade, the Heart of Darkness and the trek into the desert metaphor. Warren, Spike and Willow all made treks to the desert or into the �Heart of Darkness� in the ep so they are all evil, right. Like Kurtz, Warren dies before he was able to leave the desert furthering the �Heart of Darkness� riff. BUT The Warren that went into the desert was a robot, a fake Warren. Taking a few steps down the metaphorical road �.. so not only has Warren been devalued to his face about not being one heck of an evil dude, he has been metaphorically devalued too. Great joke there Marti.

Rufus: I work on the 7th floor Medicine. Thanks for your interest.

Cheers.

[> LOL! and may I contribute the possibility of Evillow? -- can I be Anne?, 09:11:56 05/17/02 Fri

[> LOL! and may I contribute the possibility of Evillow? -- can I be Anne?, 09:16:10 05/17/02 Fri

[> Nature of Trio (SPOILERS for Villains & earlier) -- Robert, 11:26:20 05/17/02 Fri

>> "... that Warren and crew have perhaps done the most damage to the SG than any other Big Bag before."

Yes, the troika has hurt Buffy and the group tremendously. Why is this? The troika could be more effective than previous "big bad's". Buffy and the group could be less effective than in previous years.

Let us look at the first possibility; the toika are more effective. At first sight this looks ridiculous, but there may be a kernel of truth here. All previous "big bad's" were assured in their own minds of their victory. They did not fear the slayer. They were arrogant. On the other hand, Warren and the toadies always knew their relationship with the slayer (ie. they were dog shit if Buffy ever caught up with them). Consequently, they took pot shots at Buffy, always concealing their identity and/or location, never allowing a straight up confrontation.

This was true up until "Seeing Red", when Warren figured he was invincible and could now defeat the slayer in an open fight. He was wrong and the troika was destroyed. Warren's escape plan allowed him to wreak vengeance upon Buffy one last time (and it was a colossal vengeance), but the troika as a force of evil no longer existed.

There was another reason the troika was effective, for all their comedic nerdiness. The troika consisted of three diverse individuals working together toward commons goals -- apparently the acquisition of girls and money. Previous "big bad's" were one being lording over minions, never working on a consensus basis with others. Just as Buffy is more effective than previous slayers because of her friends and family, Warren had an advantage over previous big bad's because of Andrew and Jonathon.

And, of course, there is the point that Buffy and gang are less effective than in previous years. Part of this is because Buffy has not been a whole person until the last few episodes. Also, her friends and family have been more distant and less supportive of Buffy. This brings me to the point where I don't completely agree with your statement.

>> "... that Warren and crew have perhaps done the most damage to the SG than any other Big Bag before."

I believe that Glory hurt Buffy and the group far worse than the troika. In "The Gift", death may have been Buffy's gift, but it hurt the team so much that it will never fully recover. A new team may grow out of the ashes, but we will have to wait and see.

I don't believe that the team as it existed after "Family" would have had any problem with the troika. The team was at their strongest in numbers, abilities, trust and love. In order to fight Glory, Willow put herself on the path which placed her where she is today. Willow and the team would not have lost the counsel and strength of Tara. If Buffy hadn't died and been resurrected as an incomplete person, Giles wouldn't have felt compelled to leave, further weakening the team.

There may be other examples, but the point I trying to move towards is that while the troika inflicted great damage on the Buffy and the team, they would have been able to do it had Glory not done her damage first. The team was already tearing itself apart after Glory's actions.

[> [> Hannah Arendt and the Trio of Dorkness (spoilers, I assume) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 13:04:35 05/17/02 Fri

It's been a long time since I've read Arendt but her concepts of the banality of evil certainly seem to apply. The Three Dorks seem to be laughable -- no real world- shattering objectives, no real talents -- yet they do tremendous damage. This is, in part, because no one takes them and their evil seriously until they're too late.

Arendt was writing about the Nazis. In "The Origins of Totalitarianism" and "Eichmann in Jerusalem" she made the point that much of the evil of that regime was accomplished not through obvious villains but mousy little guys just following orders and moving bits of paper from one office to another. (There's obviously much more to her argument than this but I don't recall it all.)

Think about it. Is Warren really that much more of a dork than Heinrich Himmler, that failed chicken-farmer with the coke-bottle glasses? Andrew more than that dry-as-dust Adolf Eichmann? Yet these dorks were real and killed millions, perhaps tens of millions.

Comparing these fictional characters to the real ones may be insulting those who remember the Holocaust; if so I apologize. It seems, however, in this modern day we need to remember the banality of evil.

Sometimes it may wear fuzzy sweaters and see the softer side of Sears.

[> [> [> No Real Talents -- Dochawk, 13:18:52 05/17/02 Fri

First off I will have to go back to my Arendt to common on that part, I don't want to devalue an interesting compariosn by what I say below.

I beg to differ that the dorks had no real talents. Warren created an extremely lifelike robot, one that was a good enough fighter to reflect the slayer. Jonathan had pretty impressive magical talents, he was able to do that spell in Superstar and throughout this season he has actually done th e most damage (and gotten the least out of it, his spell allowed the cerebral dampener to work, his spell got the dorks the gem for the invisible ray gun (though that was the work of Warren). Andrew's only real calling (a family tradition I guess) is that of demon summoner, not a major talent, but awfully useful.

[> [> [> [> No Real Talents -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 14:09:19 05/17/02 Fri

No devaluing, Dochawk. If anything you make my point even more strongly. If the Trio of Dorkness had some talents, then where does that put them vis-a-vis the sicko Nazis? What were Himmler's talents except shoveling chicken-**** and some minor intrigue? Eichmann's but for pushing bits of paper? By comparison with Glory, the Master, and even the Mayor the Three Louseketeers are small potatoes -- but they still did some damage.

[> [> [> [> [> Great discussion Fred and Dochawk! -- EMCEE, 20:57:20 05/17/02 Fri

I learned a lot and the stuff on Hitler was funny and relevent to Buffy. Wonderful!

Cheers

Andrew the Counter-Willow? (Spoilers) -- West, 00:35:45 05/17/02 Fri

I was reading through the Annotated Buffy page (great site!) and all the reminders of what Willow was like when the season first started up really got me thinking. She was a mousy, soft-spoken computer geek who began idolizing a more powerful figure, Buffy, and attempted to be more like her (especially seen in Welcome to the Hellmouth when she tries talking to a guy after Buffy's 'life is short' speech).

So I was thinking, wow, this reminds me a lot of Andrew. Mousy, soft spoken, computer geeky and putting Warren on roughly the same pedastal as Willow did Buffy. Throw the suggested repressed homosexuality and his magical potential into the mix, and it seems as though Andrew is something like a male Willow who started out swaying to the dark side rather than allying with the forces of good.

Now I'm really speculating, but perhaps this was an intentional parallel by ME, and they're planning to make a very unexpected showdown between Willow and Andrew? She could certainly teach him a lot about self-confidence, independance and accepting his sexuality, so it would make for an interesting heart-to-heart, if not a battle (don't think Andrew is quite powerful enough to go toe to toe, as next week will probably prove). But then, that's just me speculating...

[> Re: Andrew the Counter-Willow? (Spoilers) -- can I be Anne?, 09:07:08 05/17/02 Fri

Excellent observation, one I've never made before, but good lord, I hope they don't have a heavy-handed heart to heart. It would be great if they just hinted at it and left it to us viewers to make the connection.

[> [> Andrew the Counter-Willow? (Spoilers) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 12:53:23 05/17/02 Fri

Ummm, guys, I don't think Willow's in the mood for heart-to- heart -- unless she's holding the hearts of Andrew and Jonathan in her hands and asking them to have a conversation.

No foreknowledge, just speculation.

[> [> [> I just got the sickest visual over that... -- SingedCat, 13:17:45 05/17/02 Fri

"Ummm, guys, I don't think Willow's in the mood for heart-to- heart -- unless she's holding the hearts of Andrew and Jonathan in her hands and asking them to have a conversation."

INT. : SUNNYDALE POLICE STATION

JONATHAN and ANDREW'S CELL. The two hapless ex-nerds lie in the background. BLOOD is omnipresent.

ON WILLOW (Holding one HEART in each hand, bobbing them in turn like little puppets)

WILLOW: (Speaking for ANDREW HEART)Hey, Jonathan! Where do you want to go now?

(for OTHER HEART) Oh, I don't care, let's go to the Espresso Pump and freak out the counter girl!

(ANDREW HEART) OK!

WILLOW makes them walk off. In the background a SECURITY GUARD faints.

[> [> [> [> rotflmaopmp! I love it! -- vampire hunter D, 19:17:39 05/17/02 Fri

[> I've always Thought It was Jonathan -- Dochawk, 13:50:57 05/17/02 Fri

Except for the gay subtext you bring up, I have always thought Willow's counterpoint was Jonathan. And that was from before this season. Couldn't you see Willow using her magicks to pull something like Superstar? Going from the insecure computer nerd to the love object of everyone? I could even have seen Willow in that Bell Tower fi it weren't for the friendship of Xander and later Buffy, soemthing Jonathan never got. And Jonathan is the magick brain behind the geeks not Andrew (whose talent is demon raising). And Jonathan seems to be the computer genius as well.

[> [> Me too...the Troika vs. the Scoobies -- warped, 11:37:26 05/19/02 Sun

I also like to think that Willow's counterpoint is Jonathan, for all the reasons Dochawk pointed out and then also because both Jonathon and Willow "betrayed" their respected groups somehow. Jonathon going over to the good side by helping Buffy defeat Warren and Willow going over to the dark side by...well, there's plenty of evidence for that. And Xander would be Andrew because I think therein lies the similarity between associations (having to do with demons- Xander being attracted to demons and also hating them; Xander raising Sweet, etc.). I agree, Willow's strength lies in magic and that seems to be Jonathon's part in the Trio too. Xander and Andrew also have in common the fierce loyalty they show towards their leaders, Buffy and Warren. And I still think Xander, deep down in his heart, still loves Buffy...romantically...kind of like Andrew's feelings for Warren. And that's one aspect of why they fight the evil/good fight. (Although I would shudder to see a X/B pairing, ever.) I reference Hell's Bell's for this- in one of the visions of the future, we learn Buffy is dead and that Xander hasn't been the same since; he doesn't touch Anya, he seems lost. And Warren can be similar to Buffy in that they both have abused someone they got involved with this season (I'm thinking Spike and Katrina here although I know for B/S the abuse goes both ways). But Buffy seems to have learned her lesson, sort of, while Warren has continued to horde power and shrug off responsiblity.

So, in summary...
Jonathon = Willow (re transformation, magic)
Andrew = Xander (re loyalty, demons)
Warren = Buffy (re power/responsibility/growing up, leader)

[> I've always Thought It was Jonathan -- Dochawk, 14:51:19 05/17/02 Fri

Except for the gay subtext you bring up, I have always thought Willow's counterpoint was Jonathan. And that was from before this season. Couldn't you see Willow using her magicks to pull something like Superstar? Going from the insecure computer nerd to the love object of everyone? I could even have seen Willow in that Bell Tower fi it weren't for the friendship of Xander and later Buffy, soemthing Jonathan never got. And Jonathan is the magick brain behind the geeks not Andrew (whose talent is demon raising). And Jonathan seems to be the computer genius as well.

[> [> Jonothan = Xanderish? -- West, 12:37:15 05/18/02 Sat

I thought that Jonothon was a bit more Xander-ish than Willowy. Maybe I'm just swayed by the fact that Danny Strong originally auditioned for Xander, but he seems to have the same sort of insecurities (though Warren does the whole 'struggling for manhood' thing pretty well too). I dunno if I could see Willow casting the 'Superstar' spell, she's never been much of a popularity monger, but Xander did practically the same thing in BB&B.

[> [> [> Re: Jonothan = Xanderish? -- Alvin, 20:41:55 05/18/02 Sat

I always thought of Jonothon as what Xander would have been like without the Willow and Buffy friendship. Think how many times this season we've seen Xander understanding the nerds. He's the one who recognizes the Klingon love poetry, he thinks the poster the nerds have of a Vulcan woman is hot, and while he may not have the Star Wars action figures, he does have the Babylon 5 plate set.

[> Suggested Homosexuality ;oP -- AgnosticSorcerer, 23:37:25 05/17/02 Fri

I don't think there was anything to suggest. Andrew was definately gay. No question about it. His slip up about Warren loving him was the last straw so to speak.

I could definately see Andrew being a mirror-character for Willow and I could definately see him signing on for a few more seasons.

International Buffy Conference -- Masquerade, 09:02:23 05/17/02 Fri

As you may know from visiting Slayage, an international Buffy the Vampire Slayer Conference will be held next October at the University of East Anglia in the UK.

Go here to see the conference website:
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~r036/buffy_conference.htm

We are beginning to talk about an American Buffy conference as well, perhaps in 2003.

Slayage was reviewed in this week's Entertainment Weekly. Although we only got a "B" (because, it seems, we are too academic), we were recommended as a perfect location for Buffy summer school.

David and Rhonda

---------------------------------------
Dr. David Lavery
English Department, Middle Tennessee
State University
Murfreesboro, TN 37132
615-898-5648; Fax: 615-898-5098
Homepage: http://www.mtsu.edu/~dlavery/

[> We're too academic? -- VampRiley, 11:46:27 05/17/02 Fri

Because Buffy/Angel things are explained and debated at length?

VR

[> [> Or am I over simplifying things? -- VR, 11:49:56 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> Masq's post -- matching mole, 12:27:53 05/17/02 Fri

Her entire post is a message from one of the people from Slayage. Therefore my presumption is that the message is talking about Slayage exclusively and not about this board or Masq's site in general.

[> [> No, the "Slayage" on-line journal is too academic. -- Masq, 12:29:56 05/17/02 Fri

I think we're the grand compromise between academia and fandom here at ATPo. I'd offer up my site and discussion board as a contender for Buffyverse summer school.

[> [> [> the Buffyverse summer school -- redcat, 12:59:06 05/17/02 Fri

will there be graham crackers and naps?

[> [> [> [> I want apple juice, chocolate and pics of cats, preferably canadian. Love the stuff. -- VampRiley, 14:26:47 05/17/02 Fri

Thanks for clearing up the confusion, guys.

VR

[> [> [> [> [> I can post another pic of good ol' Rufusbells again : ) -- Masq, 16:16:20 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Well I did keep the last one. ;oP -- VR, 16:31:32 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Awww that is so sweet.....Rufus (the real one) will be pleased... -- Rufus, 16:59:15 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A happy kitty is a grateful kitty. -- VR, 08:32:24 05/18/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> Rufus has a guilty confession, I coined the phrase.."Wesley the Series" not beast.....:):) -- Rufus, 17:01:43 05/17/02 Fri

I asked beast in chat and he said it was me that said it first......of course he is afraid of you Masq and is just hiding behind my skirts....he must fear your wrath...;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, but I have been its "champion" -- beast916, 17:08:03 05/17/02 Fri

And I am afraid of nobody...as long as they are far enough away. Also, I think your cat is quietly planning vengeance for that picture.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Was it the look on her face that tipped you off? -- Rufus, 18:17:11 05/17/02 Fri

Yes, Rufus is a prima dona, and she had that f*ck you look I thought would make the perfect greeting...;) Vengeance is Rufus's every time she pukes up a hairball.....want me to save you some......:):):):)

'Villains': Better but still badly written (Lots of Spoilers) -- Liam, 09:06:09 05/17/02 Fri

My opinions about the episode.

Good points:

1. Evil Willow: Great! She's a character I've been looking forward to seeing all season, except that her late arrival was spoilt because of her 'addiction'. The final seconds of the episode, when she made Warren into Robbie Williams and then incinerated him, after saying 'Bored now', were suitably nasty. How are the other Scoobies going to deal with someone who tortured a fellow human being before killing him?

2. Poor Dawn: I'm getting to like the character more and more. Her reaction to seeing Tara's body was quite appropriate.

3. Clem: Good to see him again. He's the best new character this season has had.

Bad points:

1. Buffy's selective morals:

a) She decides to leave Dawn with Spike, someone who recently tried to rape her?
b) She goes on about Willow going to kill Warren being wrong, because he is another human being. While I accept this, she is the worst person to make such an argument, because of her going after Faith in season 3, after her then boyfriend was attacked; and because Tara's death was a direct result of her failure to deal with the Trio, she being too busy having sex with Spike.

2. Why didn't Xander not ask Buffy why, if Spike could suddenly hurt her, which could indicate that his chip had malfunctioned, he could somehow be trusted to look after Dawn?

3. The medical people leaving Buffy after Willow told them to: Would they not have refused, on the grounds that they are trying to save her life, and told security to deal with a madwoman?

4. Why didn't someone call Tara's parents and Giles?

5. I don't think that Spike had enough time to get to Africa.

[> Re: 'Villains': Better but still badly written (Lots of Spoilers) -- Drucilla, 10:00:22 05/17/02 Fri

I felt that a lot of this episode could have used help. Evil Willow was definitely a plus. I liked that she was finally taking charge and making her own decisions. Not going by Tara's rules or Buffy's rules so that she would be liked more. But I felt that it lacked some of Joss' terrific subtly. I particularly hated Buffy's moral superiority and self righteousness. I will be very upset if they reduce Willow to average "villain of the week" status. Joss' villains are interesting because they are complex and likable, I hope they don't so anything stupid with Willow.

[> Re: 'Villains': Better but still badly written (Lots of Spoilers) -- Copper, 10:07:14 05/17/02 Fri

And where in Africa did he go? The writers make Africa, the second largest land mass in the world, a continent consisting of at least 53 distinct countries where hundreds of different languages are spoken, sound like some little country like Denmark. And even then, we'd want to know where in Denmark Spike went.

[> Re: 'Villains': Better but still badly written (Lots of Spoilers) -- maddog, 10:12:30 05/17/02 Fri

I wish people would get off the Spike rape train. Spike would NEVER have hurt Dawn(now before you say I would say the same thing about Buffy the truth is I wouldn't. Buffy frustrates him to no end. That's why he's always trying to gain the power back in that relationship).

Buffy is slightly hypocritical, but that's exactly how a real person would react. When it's you in those shoes you'd be just as enraged as Willow is, as Buffy was. So to be objective on either side is damn near impossible.

Actually, Xander did have a beef with the decision, but she shot him down in a hurry...and she's Dawn's guardian, so he wasn't exactly going to fight her on it(physically or otherwise).

As for the doctors, I'm guessing Willow had some sort of mind control thing going(jedi mind trick sorta). They walked out like zombies.

I think we were only dealing with the same day as the accident. Maybe even a few hours. The first thing was to stop Willow. Phone calls can be made when they have time.

I found it funny he left California on a bike and ended up in Africa. No mention on how he got there. Flights from the west coast to Africa...how long do they take anyway?

[> [> Spike and Aristotelian Unity -- cjl, 11:07:28 05/17/02 Fri

I think Richard XI brought up the point that Spike's trials in Africa and the events in Sunnydale aren't necessarily going on at the same time. Spike could have taken five, ten, twenty days to get to Africa, but we're shown those events intercut with the chaos in California.

Nonetheless, it sort of distracts an audience when events in radically different time frames are shown as part of a single, narrative structure. Unfortunately, given that we're all the way to the end of the season, and Black Willow's rampage is taking place within a 24(?)-hour period, there's no way to "pause" the Sunnydale narrative and give Spike a chance to FedEx himself to Africa.

As for the other lapses in logic and truck-sized plot holes in the story...sigh. They really should have given that script another run-through. We need another story editor. We need better story editors. WE NEED JOSS!

[> [> [> Re: Spike and Aristotelian Unity -- shadowkat, 15:48:39 05/17/02 Fri

Actually after discussing this with a friend who is a long time soap watcher - it wasn't that bad.

People jump to and from countries all the time in TV in almost no time. Television time is different than real time, it can speed up or slow down at a moments notice.

Also I think the problem everyone is having is the desire to read it a tad literally - the show has been slanting heavily towards the metaphorical this season. My suggestion
ignore the real world common sense and watch the story.
After all as my friend pointed out: When have any of these characters called the cops? Or relied on them?

When do we really see them doing much real world traveling?

As for Spike - he is a demon, maybe he had demon connections? Maybe he found a time portal? Maybe it is a flash-forward?

Regarding the thing about Dawn upstairs in the room with the body - has anyone forgotten this is a girl who just a year ago didn't know if she was even real? She doesn't like cops - they've never helped her. Tara was a surrogate Mom for her - and she was in shock. My friend made a convincing
case for her sitting up there in shock in the room.

Xander was also in shock...barely noticed Willow and didn't know what to do.

Admittedly it's odd the cops aren't around - but the show has let us know since day one they are pretty clueless.
OTOH - they did show up and question Buffy when the Assistant to Mayor died and Kendra was found. It's odd they didn't show up and question them regarding Warren. But maybe they did? We don't know how much time passed.

Same on Spike - we don't know how much time has passed.

As I said - TV time and real time don't mix. Even the tV show 24 - which is supposed to happen in a 24 hour time span has screwed up either that or it really only takes someone two seconds to drive to and from the office in LA. LOL!

[> [> [> [> The Sunnydale Police: (Spoilers for Becoming II, S2) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 17:17:44 05/17/02 Fri

Oddly enough, Principal Snyder may have said it best:

Snyder: In case you haven't noticed, the police of Sunnydale are DEEPLY stupid.

As he was addressing Buffy at the time --

well, it's evidence that she retained SOMETHING from high school.

[> [> [> [> Indiana Jones and the mining car tracks (it's on topic, trust me) -- cjl, 19:49:29 05/17/02 Fri

"Ignore the real world common sense and watch the story."

I'd love to, 'kat, but every once in a while a film maker I trust will go for the metaphorical effect or get carried away with a "thrill-ride" sequence, and suspension of disbelief will fly right out the window. That happened a lot during "Villains." I understand the metaphorical significance of Willow chasing Warren into the woods, but I couldn't figure out why he wasn't on a plane flight to Aruba while Black Willow was squeezing the Warren-bot.

Getting back to the message subject, I had the same uncomfortable feeling during Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Indy, Short Round and Kate Capshaw were running from the cultists, and they commandeered a rickety mining car. They were rolling down the tracks with no problem, when--up ahead! A gap in the tracks! (Ten feet, at least!) EEK! (How's Indy gonna get out of this one, kids?)

The mining car jumped the gap, and landed ON THE TRACKS on the other side. Our heroes never slowed down.

Now...I realize Spielberg and Lucas loved those old Saturday morning movie serials of the 40s and 50s. And I grew up watching old horror movies and cheesy sci-fi flicks with egregious lapses in narrative logic. But even I sat back in my seat and said: "Oh, come ON!"

Sorry, 'kat. Can't ignore common sense forever. I'm not wired that way. (Maybe that's why I despise most daytime soap operas.)

That said, I'm looking forward to the Season 6 finale. (And Indiana Jones IV.)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Indiana Jones and the mining car tracks (it's on topic, trust me) -- shadowkat, 20:31:28 05/17/02 Fri

And you love fantasy??? LOL!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, I do love fantasy... -- cjl, 05:42:00 05/18/02 Sat

But 'kat (and redcat too), fantasy usually takes place within a fictional realm with consistent rules and an internal logic all its own. The author or film maker knows that breaking these rules or an attitude of "what the hell, we'll make them up as we go along" violates the implied pact the creator has made with the reader/viewer, and suspension of disbelief is shattered, detracting from the integrity of the creation. A work of narrative art is sustained by the mutual belief of both the creator AND the reader/viewer. If one or the other loses faith in the creation...poof! It (metaphorically) ceases to exist. (If anyone out there is a Twin Peaks fan, think about the second season, when David Lynch got bored with his own series.)

I admit, Buffy is much tougher fantasy/horror series to sustain in terms of suspension of disbelief. It's taking place right here, right now, in the state of California, not an alternate dimension (Amber or Xanth) or a version of Ancient Greece (Hercules/Xena). Joss and ME have to factor in life in these United States along with all the other metaphorical and allegorical baggage.

I guess I'm just bitching that they pulled off this little juggling act a helluva lot better in previous seasons. I've been watching since Day 1, I've noticed tiny little logical glitches before, but nothing that bothered me too much. This episode bothered me. It was sloppy. As a writer, I don't like sloppy.

(I'm turning into a crotchety old man. Excuse me...HEY YOU KIDS! Get out of my backyard!)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: the suspension of disbelief, or, how important to a journey is the road? -- redcat, 21:48:46 05/17/02 Fri

I understand your unease with the plot-holes in Villians.

But isn't the "suspension of disbelief" exactly what ME is reminding us we need to do in these
last days of the season? Think of Warren shooting off up into the ethers on a jetpack. They
even turn the camera back around and show us a shot of him from above as he
simultaneously and quite literally ZOOMS! into and out of comic book history.

It seems to me that Buffy's echo of the realist's reaction - "Oh, come ON!" -- at that point
functions similarly to her looking directly into the camera during her solo at the Bronze in
OMWF ("And you can sing along"). Joss & Co. like to provide the audience with their very own
stage directions. The jetpack-reaction case seems to me a slightly more direct, and perhaps
for that reason less complex and interestingly ambiguous, note to us to remember whose
series of universes we're playing in here.

I believe it is a supremely human characteristic to agree to enter fictive worlds, acknowledging
both that they ARE fictive and that we can and have entered them, through our imagination
and by using the tools provided by our individual culture�s rules of narrativity. I think humans
generally do this act of entering the narrative for some purpose, i.e., to gain the moral
understanding the story provides, or for our pleasure in its creative play of expression, etc. I
think you are right that, usually, some sort of semblance between or symbolic relationship with
the �real� world and the clearly fictive one must be drawn in order for an audience to participate
in entering and experiencing the fictive world. I think our differences, cjl, rest on the question
of how much of a semblance that symbolic relationship must have for each of us to continue to
agree to enter the fictive world of Buffy. Or to put it differently, how much of our own �common
sense� can we ignore while still enjoying the telling of the tale?

As humans, this engagement with the narrative is a critical part of our enactment of our own
cultures, part of how we humans �do� culture. I would argue that humans have always done
so; this is part of the narrative impulse that seems to be one of a very limited number of truly
universal human traits. It is highly unlikely that any peoples, whether highly �civilized� or
relatively �primitive,� have not been able to make the leap into the fictive realm that�s identified
by the western theatrical phrase �the suspension of disbelief.� I think, instead, that all peoples
can do it ,and do it often, and do it in particularly culturally-structured ways. As we do it, I think
that we are always aware that we are doing it, and if we feel that fictive world still makes sense
FOR THE PURPOSE for which we entered it, then we remain in it and (hopefully) enjoy the
time.

As I write this, I�m thinking of ancient illiterate Sumerians watching for seven days as their
goddess Inanna chanted and enacted her song cycle on a raised stage in the middle of the
square, using the bodies of her (probably literate) priestesses and priests to do it; of ancient
Greeks sitting in outdoor theaters watching the antics of their gods as they cavorted on the
same stage as historical heroes; of Japanese Noh actors, bringing passionately new power to
five-hundred-year-old words with the mere lifting of an eyebrow; of the non-literate but
extraordinarily graceful chanters of pre-western-contact Hawai�i, who memorized and then
performed the Hawaiian epic origination poem, the Kumulipo, which runs to 2,400 lines and
contains (much like the Bible) four different accounts of the creation of the universe.

I then think of contemporary pop-culture consumers � us � seeing the enacted metaphor of
the jetpack and simultaneously groaning along with Buffy, �Oh, come ON,� all the while busily
scratching our heads, scrambling to read the deeper text, to see the connections, to
experience the intertexuality of the cultural moment -- in other words, to do our part of what it
takes to journey into the Jossverse. You find the disconnect disconcerting. I find the specifics
of the disconnect quite interesting. Perhaps I have less of a road map for what my journey into
this fictive world should look like (although I do seem to spend an enormous amount of time
searching for signs along the road... hmmm). Anyway, this is all a very long-winded way to say
that I�m sorry you�re finding the journey so tediously unrealistic. It still makes me giggle.

Perhaps I could send you some chocolate to take along? It always makes my trips more
bearable. � rc

[> [> [> [> Re: Spike and Aristotelian Unity/24 -- O'Cailleagh, 22:49:20 05/17/02 Fri

Plus the fact that the episodes of 24 are only 45 minutes long...not an hour!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Spike and Aristotelian Unity/24 -- AgnosticSorcerer, 23:56:38 05/17/02 Fri

Why does Spike have to have gone to Africa?

Could he have not gone to the Carribbean?

[> [> [> Marti Noxon - Has she even written any really great Buffy eps? -- Angelina, 03:47:17 05/18/02 Sat

The few eps I've seen where I remember her name as writer, like Villians, are some of the absolute worst scripts. She leaves plot holes you could drive a truck through. I agree, she needs better editing. Sorry. Loved Villians, but come on.........

[> [> [> [> In all fairness to Marti--BBB & The Wish are two of my favorites -- cjl, 05:51:27 05/18/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Another brilliant one she wrote was "I Only Have Eyes for You"...one of my all-time faves... -- Rob, 22:12:01 05/18/02 Sat

...and I thought "Bargaining" was brilliant as well. I love Marti personally. Only script of hers that begged a lot to be desired, IMO, was "Bad Eggs," but that was only her first script.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another brilliant one she wrote was "I Only Have Eyes for You"...one of my all-time faves... -- Rattletrap, 16:17:47 05/19/02 Sun

I think Marti is technically a great writer, but most of her stuff gets a little angsty for my personal taste ("The Prom", IOHEFY, "Intervention", and "Wild at Heart" all come to mind, great eps, but heavy on the kleenex). After finally having seen "Bad Eggs," I would agree that it is a pretty strong candidate for worst episode of the series. But, that said, there were some absolutely priceless one- liners in it. I am also inclined to defend her, because BE was only one of the four episodes she wrote in mid-S2. Marti was responsible for WML1 and 2, Bad Eggs, and Surprise (4 out of 5 in a row--3 of which were quite good). That season, she seems to have written something like 7 or 8 episodes, most of them good, many of them all-time classics. I'm inclined to dismiss the one bad egg (sorry) as an exception.

Finally, as I've been saying all season: If you don't like S6, that's fine, it's your prerogative, but blame Joss. All sources agree that he still retains control of the creative process, attends the writers' meetings, and proofs every script before it airs. It is only the day-to-day control of production on the set that he has relinquished.

Just my $.02

'trap

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Intervention was by Espenson actually, maybe you meant Forever ? -- Ete, 06:13:40 05/20/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, I did. You read my mind. Thanx :-) -- trap, 08:50:31 05/20/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> What's My Line (1 and 2, I think); Surprise; The Prom, to name a few -- trap, 05:30:04 05/19/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> Yeah and SHE'S RUNNING THE BOAT! -- Rochefort, 11:04:43 05/19/02 Sun

I agree. She writes some good LINES! very funny. But NEVER a good episode, and I can't help but blame her for this whole off kilter season!

Joss himself says sometimes he watches it while he's working on Lighteningbug and goes "ARURURURGHGHGH!" Maybe he'll fire Marti Noxon.

[> [> [> Spike to Africa/Editing decisions -- tomfool, 09:23:24 05/18/02 Sat

I agree with you regarding the timeframe explanation of Spike seeming to Fedex himself to Africa. I think the editors were actually faced with a tough editing choice and went through the following decision process:

Spike in Africa scene, facing the demon, setting up the trial/transformation storyline: they had to show this scene somewhere and it would normally make a classic episode ender. If this scene had ended the episode, the whole 'how the hell did he get there so quick?' disconnect would be much less disruptive and the viewer could easily make the assumption that some time had passed, even with no more explanation than we've been given. Much better choice from a narrative perspective.

Willow scene: Evillow is rampaging and these events are happening in a short, linear timeframe. This storyline ends with the shocking, visceral Warren death/Willow disappearance. Truly a gut punch of an ending. Here's where the impossible editing decision came in. How can you NOT end the episode after that scene? Wouldn't any other scene suffer on a visceral/letdown level? You really need a week to get over that scene. I think ME would have preferred to tell the story with a Spike ending, but think about how that would have played out cinematically. So they did the best they could with a tough decision and are counting on the viewer to make the assumption/wank that the events are presented in a non-linear way. And like shadowkat says, it�s all so much more enjoyable if you approach it from a metaphoric mindset.

The other option would be to just leave the Spike in Africa scene for next episode. But I think that there�s so much left to tell in the final two hours and for everything to work they had to set up the Spike storyline in this episode. I have a theory about the final scene of the season, but that's a subject for another thread.

[> [> [> [> Re: Spike to Africa/Editing decisions -- Dochawk, 11:51:59 05/18/02 Sat

There was another choice. How about the jungles of Central America? 6 - 8 hours travel time, already set up with demons in As You Were, in addition it would remind us of the two shamans who used too much black magic and disappeared. (That was the point of that story wasn't it, to tell us what might happen to Willow now)

[> [> [> [> [> African symbolism -- Anne, 04:24:52 05/19/02 Sun

I think it's possible that the symbolism of Africa might be more important than it may now appear, though we should know for sure in a few days.

As noted above: someone at BAPS did the research to find out that Spike is supposed to be in Luganda. Luganda is near the source of the Nile. The myth of Osiris says that he was put into a box by his brother Set and was thrown into the Nile, but was later reborn. Osiris is the one who was appealed to to bring back Buffy, and who refused to bring back Tara.

Tara's words "Things fall apart" may refer to Yeats' poem "The Second Coming", in which there is a reference to a Sphinx creature, another Egyptian symbol. (And the Sphinx sat outside Thebes posing a riddle to passersby, i.e. putting them to the test. And the answer to the riddle was "a man").

Not to mention that the First Slayer looked like she came from Africa.

Now maybe all these references will become relevant, and maybe not. But until we see the final I don't think it will be clear whether South America would have done as well as Africa.

[> [> [> [> [> Good points -- tomfool, 09:23:11 05/19/02 Sun

Dochawk - good point, that is another viable option that would have helped the linear flow of the narrative. Unfortunately, I think the shaman stuff is a plot detail that may not really be finished, although it was interesting that Clem refered to a 'crazy shaman' who brought his cousin back.

I tend to agree with Anne that there is some important element to the Africa location that will come into play.

[> [> Re: Plotholes -- Dochawk, 11:22:33 05/17/02 Fri

1. The doctors were told to leave with a magical instruction (just as Warrenbot got out of the bus that way). They didn't have a choice

2. Spike in Africa - according to someone else's research, they native spoke Luganda, native tongue of the Baganda people who reside in southern Kenya. Flight time LA to Nairobi 24 hours (at best). Spike needed 2 hours to motorcylce to LAX as well and then he woul dhave to fly down there. Its a plot hole we have to accept.

3. I don't see Buffy as self-righteous at all. She is absolutely correct - there are human laws and in the Jossverse thats how they deal with humans. And because she made the mistake with Faith, she's supposed to let Willow make a more serious mistake? I am not sure which time you are referring to (for Angel's life? that was a mystical murder attempt, needing a mystical cure, not bound to human laws and even then Buffy realized her mistake when she kissed Faith in the hospital) Buffy realized the error with Faith in time (protecting her against the WC), Willow didn't. The difference between human and supernatural law is basic to being a slayer. And Osiris tells us the same thing, he can't bring Tara back because it is a human death due to human causes and must be dealt with in the natural plane.

[> [> [> maybe not #2 -- tost, 18:50:44 05/17/02 Fri

Dawn is coming home from school(according to the shooting script) when she finds Tara. The Busyist day of the year at the carnival Seems to me more likely to be a Saturday when Dawn spent the night at Janice's. Its possable that Warren took a day to heal. That gives Spike a while to get to Africa. Sunday at least. Does Buffy let Dawn stay out when there is school the next day.

End of season loose ends -- dream of the consortium, 10:04:32 05/17/02 Fri

Just making a mental checklist of outstanding items - the little things outside of the big stories that have not yet been addressed. I have a feeling they will all be put off until next year, which is simply agonizing.

Here's my starter list:

Halfrek/Cecily
The blond woman being carried in Willow�s hallucination at Rack�s
The �Doctor� and the demon eggs
Doc�s �domino� comment to Spike

I'm sure I've forgotten things. There are also some things that aren't in question, exactly, but I would still like to see dealt with - for instance, Amy, and Catherine trapped in that statue for that matter. So my question is: what do you want to see explained before the show ends?

(And where the heck is Miss Kitty?)

[> Re: End of season loose ends -- pr10n, 10:15:55 05/17/02 Fri

Left over from S4 we have: the Ta'hoffren talisman!

Seems ripe for the picking, since Willow is all crackling with evil vengeancy goodness.

[> Re: End of season loose ends -- Dochawk, 10:24:05 05/17/02 Fri

I think Halfrek/cecily was a setup for Spike's journey in season 7. Esp if he comes back as William.

And I think you have seen the last of the demon eggs and you are going to accept Riley's explanation or not, but its all ME is going to give us.

And also, Amy, she's still kind of a loose end.

[> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- Celia Murphy, 10:46:48 05/17/02 Fri

I'm thinking the blonde woman in Rack's will come into play. I'm still wondering exactly what Willow gave him for the high he gave her. I agree we'll probably never find out about the Doctor.

[> [> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- shadowkat, 20:29:11 05/17/02 Fri

What i want to see wrapped up and a few answers:

1. Dawn took the D'Hoffryn Tailsman way back in ATW not
sure if Anya got it back in OAFA - but doubt it and they reminded us of it in the "what happened previously on
Buffy" in Entropy. Not sure what they'll do with it.

2. Halfrek/Cecily - I agree, it's a setup for Spike/Willaim's journey next season. She's coming into
play then. They had to mention her now - in order to get it to work. Will have to wait - dang them! (If I have to wait, why can't they start new episodes in August or Sept instead
of bloody Oct??)

3. The eggs and the doctor - sorry you're going to half to accept the fact that Riley was telling the truth and Spike
was the Doctor doing a harebrained scheme with the eggs.
Badly plotted, but there you are. ME was trying to remind us that Spike is an evil soulless demon, apparently he'd been too good lately. Also we were supposed to go "a-ha!"
I knew it, instead of - no can't be, makes no sense, again with the "huh?" ME did a bad job with that one. They should
have built it up more over previous episodes - like NOT having Spike and Buffy shagging in the same place the eggs were? But oh well. No - if you read the year metaphorically
and less literally - these glaring plotholes don't bug you as much. At any rate - it's safe to believe Riley and Sam were exactly what they were, stalwart and true secret agents who will never appear in SunnyD again. (Riley has
a movie career and can't spare the time.)

4. Amy???? I'm thinking next episode she may be helping
Buffy and Xander but not sure. She was supposed to reappear
in Villains. And I'm unspoiled for the finale.

5. Dawn and social services or was that resolved in Gone?

6. Want to know what happens with Spike - if they make that
the cliffhanger - it will drive me nuts all summer dang it.
And that's just plain evil.

[> [> [> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- O'Cailleagh, 21:14:42 05/17/02 Fri

Um...what? I missed that whole Dawn stealing the D'Hoffryn talisman...well that's adding layers to my Buffy-induced insanity!

The Cecily/Halfrek thing. Yes, we need this to be resolved ....anyone else feel Doc is involved there? (as in the demon- not Dochawk...but then....) I can't remember the exact wording, but didn't he refer to Spike having dark hair (like William) with that whole 'domino' remark?

And Dracula, dammit! Is he still in the spooky mansion? (or did he leave and take it with him?) I can't imagine he'd go all the way to SunnyD just to go home again...he's not one to give up so easily.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- Katrina, 09:13:07 05/18/02 Sat

And what's the deal with Hank Summers? They could bring the actor back for a hallucination episode, but ignore his having an orphaned teenage daughter a drive away for over a year...Why hasn't Halfreck put the whammy on him?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- Scribblegirl, 00:24:43 05/19/02 Sun

I want to know why Spike has been constantly revealing his knowledge of magic since Series 4. First in "Something Blue" in which he suggested a reversal spell to Giles' blindness. He knew in "Forever" what the soil was going to be used by Dawn for. I can't remember what episode but he knew that the book Willow was reading was dangerous.

By the way in "Forever" Doc also suggested that the guy who liked Dominos was not a vampire.

[> [> [> [> [> Help Me Out Here - Domino? -- West, 02:27:55 05/19/02 Sun

The line must be completely slipping my mind, but its been brought up quite a bit... What's this much-considered domino line Doc made?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Help Me Out Here - Domino? -- Leaf, 06:22:42 05/19/02 Sun

From the transcript of Forever from Psyche's Transcripts

DOC: I know you.
SPIKE: I don't think so, mate.
DOC: No, no, you're that guy, that, that guy, hangs around down at the corner mart. (Spike looks confused) Big into dominoes, aren't you?
SPIKE: Can't say as I am. Look, we came here because- (stops because Doc is laughing)
DOC: That's crazy, isn't it? I mean, I, I, I'd swear, you were that guy. (Dawn looks nervous) I mean, your hair's a different color and you're a vampire, but uh, other than that...

[> [> [> [> [> The infamous "domino" line -- Rattletrap, 14:16:40 05/20/02 Mon

I have seen absolutely no evidence that suggests that Doc's "domino" line was anything other than a silly throwaway intended to set him up as a little bit senile. I don't consider this even a slightly loose end and I will be thoroughly amazed if ME revists it at any point in the rest of the series. As much as I love Joel Grey and the Doc character, I'm pretty sure we've seen the last of him.

Just my $.02

'trap

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The infamous "domino" line -- CW, 15:15:10 05/20/02 Mon

I agree. In this country, dominoes has a reputation of being a game for old geezers with little energy to do anything else. Not the first thing you'd think of seeing on Spike. I think suggesting Spike was a fan of dominoes was partly a ploy by Doc to seem more friendly, tame and harmless than he really was.

[> Re: End of season loose ends -- luvthistle1, 10:48:53 05/17/02 Fri

You for got:

Why no one remeber Andrew?

Why did the spell worked,if the urn broke?

Was Buffy really in heaven?

I think there is more to the joke,that no one remember Andrew.
I really, really think that something went wrong with the spell,or someone esle actual did something to bring Buffy back.
Buffy , were was she?

[> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- dream of the consortium, 12:29:36 05/17/02 Fri

I would like there to be more to the joke that no one remembers Andrew, but I wouldn't feel cheated if there wasn't. I like the idea a lot, though.

As for the spell, I don't know if we will find out more. I would put that in the category of main-topic items - if it isn't part of the Willow plotline (for this or next season), it won't come up again.

I don't think they will touch on where Buffy was - if they do, the ambiguity left around Normal Again would be destroyed. I can't imagine they so carefully make both possibilities in Normal Again reasonable, then return to the issue to settle it in another direction. Personally, I like the Buffy in heaven (or more accurately, a heaven) idea best - but then, I grew up Catholic and can still be wooed by the drama of expulsion from Paradise.

[> [> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- AgnosticSorcerer, 00:12:35 05/18/02 Sat

Wasn't Andrew explained by the idea that he wasn't in the same age group as the Scoobies? He was a younger class who's older brother was in the Scoobies/Jonathan's class.

[> [> [> [> Re: End of season loose ends -- dream of the consortium, 09:57:58 05/20/02 Mon

I agree that this isn't really a loose end - he's younger and forgettable and that's reason enough. I do think that it would be interesting to have some other reason come up - some sort of backstory to Andrew that shows he isn't what we thought he was - but it's merely a possibility, not clearly unfinished business. For example, I put Catherine Madison in finished business that could be fun to come back to, until they showed her statue again after the school went down. That upped her to unfinished business in my book. Andrew is still in category A. Board consensus seems to be that "The Doctor and the Demon Eggs" is in category A - might be nice to see more background story or new developments that gave a new interpretation to the story, but don't hold your breath. I really, really want it to be category B - we don't know everything yet. Sadly, I'm giving up hope.
The D'Hoffryn necklace business is definitely an outstanding item - I missed All the Way, so I had no idea.

[> [> Andrew is Tucker's brother -- Liana, 10:21:58 05/18/02 Sat

In the Prom Tucker trained Hell Hounds to attack people in formal wear at The Prom.

[> Re: End of season loose ends -- i-jingle, 14:01:35 05/17/02 Fri

"Catherine trapped in that statue for that matter"

Wasn't the statue in the school when they destroyed it at graduation?
I don't remember seeing it, but i'd think it was...

Anyone care to confirm/defute?

God bless

[> [> Re: End of season loose ends )v -- dfrisby, 06:21:04 05/18/02 Sat

The high school was not completely destroyed. They return to the hellmuth to save the world again in season four and even though the statue contaiing Catherine is not shown, it's quite likely that it was not destroyed, given the condition of the rest of the school.

[> [> [> Re: End of season loose ends )v -- O'Cailleagh, 07:55:59 05/18/02 Sat

The statuette is not destroyed, I can't remember which episode (I'm sooo helpful!), but the shooting script for the ep has the camera zooming in on the statuette's eyes which are all Catherine-y.

[> [> [> [> In the "Doomed" shooting script, the Scoobies stumble across the (intact) statue. -- cjl, 08:03:54 05/20/02 Mon

[> Re: End of season loose ends -- Robert, 16:51:20 05/17/02 Fri

>> "The �Doctor� and the demon eggs"

What is the loose end?

[> Re: End of season loose ends -- Alvin, 22:15:24 05/17/02 Fri

Did Richard survive being run through with a sword?

How did Warren know about Rack? And why would Rack help Warren. Andrew and Jonathon I could see since they both seemed to have magical abilities, but Warren never seemed to. In fact, I always had the impression that the reason Warren kept them in the gang was because they had magic, and he didn't.

How did Dawn manage to shop lift a leather coat with the security tag still on. Does her latent mystical key abilities interfere with electronic detectors?

Did Anya return all the wedding presents?

Why were Xander's relatives staying with him when the Harris house is in town? And why was Clem on the groom's side of the aisle at the wedding.

And what ever happened to Doc? If he could survive a sword in the chest, he should be able to survive a fall.

[> [> "Did Anya return all the wedding presents?" Yes, with postage due.. -- rc, 22:37:58 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> [> lol -- Shul, 23:31:37 05/17/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: lol -- AgnosticSorcerer, 00:16:12 05/18/02 Sat

Shoplifting with those security tags is not so hard. Ingenuity is the key. (No pun intended.)

[> DMP -- tomfool, 10:46:58 05/18/02 Sat

Not that anyone is really missing/caring about this, but is Buffy still flipping the Doublemeat? I don't remember seeing her quit or get fired yet, so it seems like they just let this storyline fade away. Maybe I missed it.

[> [> Re: DMP -- West, 02:20:41 05/19/02 Sun

Well, she walked out with Riley that time, and the boss seemed none too pleased... But then, she does still have all that pretty blackmail material (which would be so much better put to use blackmailing for the money minus the work - damn nobility). So, since Buffy needs and income and doesn't randomly stuble over large wads of cash like Angel, I'd guess she's still there.

[> [> [> Speaking of large wads of cash... -- Isabel, 06:53:17 05/19/02 Sun

Aren't she and Willow in possession of the Invisibility Gun? It's powered by that large and sparkly diamond that the Troika stole from the museum.

Even if Buffy's nobility prevents her from getting Spike to fence it or get it chopped into smaller, unrecognizable pieces so she can sell it, they might be able to get a 'finder's fee' from the museum, the real owners or the insurance company covering the diamond. Or all three. I've heard that insurance companies are willing to pay sizable rewards to get valuable items back. (It's cheaper than paying the policy for them.)

No one's mentioned a thing about it. But it's been bugging me like the rent issue all year.

[> [> [> [> Good points. I was wondering the same things. -- tomfool, 09:09:37 05/19/02 Sun

I was wondering if the invisability ray (and maybe the freeze gun?) would come into play again. It seems like a valuable weapon if it were used creatively. But with Willow out of the good guy loop, it's hard to imagine the other Scoobies having the tech know-how to fire it up. They've already demonstrated that Xander isn't much good with the techno weapons. Maybe the best bet is just to pawn/return the gem.

[> [> [> [> [> If you want to look at things realistically -- matching mole, 14:57:27 05/19/02 Sun

Warren is a complete idiot. His inventions: androids, freexe rays, invisibility guns (I don't remember if these were all his but I'll assume they are) would have yielded him far more money if he patented them and sold the rights than the nerd crime spree ever would have.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Supervillain v. Superhero: Warren's motivations -- cjl, 08:25:35 05/20/02 Mon

You have to understand the Troika's attitude towards power and crime. They see themselves as Lex Luthor to Buffy's Superman. In the classic Superman comics of the forties and fifites, Lex Luthor never tries to buy all the real estate in Metropolis or run for governor, or sell his patents for a gazillion dollars. For Classic Lex, it's all a matter of ego. He possesses the greatest scientific mind in the world and he can't stand the fact that there's this alien creature flying around in stupid blue tights who's soaking up the adulation of the public. Luthor is always trying to prove he's the better man, and the only way he thinks he can do it is by destroying Superman.

Warren, in his own pitiful way, reflects Classic Lex. At first, he sees Buffy as the Protector of Sunnydale, and simply hopes to distract her while the Troika proceeds with their plans to build cool gizmos, steal tons o' cash, and score chicks, chicks, chicks. Eventually, though, sick puppy Warren projects all his insecurities about his own manhood onto Buffy, and it turns into a personal vendetta on the Luthor/Superman level. Yes, Warren could have sold his patents and be worshipped by the scientific community (and probably the world)--but let's face it, the boy ain't right in the head. That's why Warren is now freshly toasted supervillain and not the new Thomas Edison.

A side note: in recent years, Luthor has apparently wised up. He's become Mr. Corporae Big Shot in the comics, using his vast holdings and political power to give Superman no end of trouble. He's also shed his grey prison uniform and spartan underground mad scientist laboratories and is living the high life in the penthouse suite.

See, supervillain wannabes? THAT'S how it should be done!

[> Re: End of season loose ends -- ravenhair, 14:50:40 05/20/02 Mon

Where has Dawn been sneaking off to after curfew? Who does she meet - Janice?

Should we really believe Dawn when she told Spike "it's over" regarding her Key powers?

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