May 2002
posts
Anya's
Path (Spoilers through Villains) -- Ixchel, 22:18:25
05/14/02 Tue
I was very impressed with Anya in Villains. I think she's
realizing the emptiness of vengeance. Her behavior at the
end of Entropy (not letting Spike wish) seemed like a
beginning for her and this appears to have been developed
further in the following episodes. It was obvious (to me)
that her heart wasn't really in being a vengeance demon in
SR. Now, in Villains, she showed true concern (IMHO) for
Willow (trying to stop Willow in her quest for vengeance and
stating to Xander that she would help for _Willow_, perhaps
implying not _him_). And, I believe, her look of horror at
what Willow had done to Warren wasn't the flayed body
(Anya's seen and done worse things), but that Willow might
be lost because of this act. I'm feeling very hopeful for
Anya.
I'm wondering if Spike is on a similar path, only he is
where Anya was at the beginning of Entropy. I'd like to
think so.
Ixchel
[>
Re: Anya's Path (Spoilers through Villains) --
Alvin, 02:59:27 05/15/02 Wed
Since I haven't seen Villains (the joys of living in a non-
UPN area where we get to see Buffy five days later, hockey
and baseball games permitting), I haven't seen Anya's look
of horror, but my first though on reading your post was
something completely different. Remember, d'Hoffryn wanted
Willow to be a vengence demon and the way Willow killed
Warren would look good on a resume for a vengence position.
Considering how we've seen Anya act with her client in SR, I
would say Anya's having trouble making her quota for the
month so maybe she sees Willow as competition.
[> [>
I think probably we would disagree about Anya in
general? -- Ixchel, 08:39:58 05/15/02 Wed
I really see hope for Anya's psychological growth in this
episode. Maybe, once you see Villains, you'll understand
why I think this, even if you don't have the same
interpretation of her behavior?
BTW, that's awful that you have to wait so long. Talk about
_evil_. ;)
Ixchel
[> [> [>
I agree with you , Ixchel. -- Tillow, 08:51:30
05/15/02 Wed
I think the point of all the recent scenes with Anya(nka) is
that her time as a human has changed her view on the
difference between vengeance and justice. She is growing up.
The question is, does she have to be human to do that? I
think not because I think it is part of Xander's journey to
accept her as she is now. MPO.
Tillow
[> [> [> [>
Thank you, Tillow. I really appreciate that... --
Ixchel, 09:28:37 05/15/02 Wed
Maybe more because I admire your ideas very much.
I was wondering if (at some point) we would see Anya smash
her pendant as some sort of final realization of the
pointlessness of vengeance. Of course, now that you say
that about Xander, I'm rethinking this because that makes
perfect sense for his character.
Can she be a vengeance demon and not exact vengeance
(through her own choice)? Would D'Hoffryn take away her
pendant once he realized she was no longer performing her
function (I really don't believe she will again)?
Perhaps Xander will accept her and then she will destroy the
pendant?
Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [>
As for Xander... -- alcibiades, 16:40:18
05/15/02 Wed
Whatever she does about D'Hoffryn and her vengeance job, it
can't be about Xander accepting her. Xander has got to grow
up also. Even last night, even when he needed Anya's help,
Xander was still being all superior and looking down at her.
Of course, some of that was defensiveness, but it reeks of
his father's prejudices. His whole prejudice system has got
to be stripped away. And with his best man Willow suddenly
become a bad witch, it's really going to call his values
into question.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
I agree. She shouldn't do it because of Xander...
-- Ixchel, 17:20:53 05/15/02 Wed
But because _she_ comes to some sort of realization (I think
she's on this path).
I agree about Xander's attitude, but he must have been
surprised. He hasn't seen Anya like we have (the end of
Entropy and in Villains _not_ exacting vengeance, trying to
stop Willow), for all he (and Buffy, though she seemed more
open to Anya) knows Anya has been doing her job since HB.
If he'd had time to think he may have (or may not have
considering the self deception of everyone this season)
stopped to wonder why he wasn't presently splattered all
over SD (or something more gruesome, Anya told him enough
about her demon days). The having someone else wish is not
really _that_ much of a hindrance.
I do believe he loves her still. For all his cruel remarks
in Entropy he did try to help her at the MB and seemed
concerned about her well-being.
Ixchel
[> [> [>
Re: I think probably we would disagree about Anya in
general? -- Alvin, 13:42:28 05/15/02 Wed
When I see it, I'm sure I'll agree with you; it was very
early in the morning and I was feeling contrary. Sorry! And
their programming really is EVIL. Try to imagine the pain
and horror of having Buffy shown at 4 AM Saturday, setting
the VCR to tape the episode, rushing to the VCR and finding
out that you taped an infomercial because the local TV
station runs its program day from 6AM to 6AM and what they,
the EPTT ( Evil Powers That Transmit) call 4AM Saturday is
what the rest of the world calls 4AM SUNDAY. I eventually
got it figured out and hadn't actually missed Buffy, but I
almost had a heartattack when I thought I had missed
Entropy.
[> [> [> [>
Please don't apologize. You have the excuse of being
subject... -- Ixchel, 16:13:08 05/15/02 Wed
To that very cruel (well to a Buffy fan) BtVS schedule. My
sympathies, truly. :)
Ixchel
[>
Anya and culpability (more spoilers) -- Darby,
05:35:58 05/15/02 Wed
We've been shown kinda sideways what Anya's been doing for a
millenium, and might have done here if Willow had let her.
There's much talk here about the "rules" and how the killing
of humans is absolutely wrong for the heroes, but isn't that
a big part of Anya's job? Most of the vengeance suggestions
she's been making these past couple of episodes would have
killed the bad guys (and they weren't even Bad Guys), and
although distracted, she seems at once the Anya we've come
to know and the Anyanka we know she was all that time - not
a human controlled by an evil demon, but a human merged with
but hardly changed by some sort of demon essence.
I had that "Whoa!" moment at the skinning and flaming (does
the burning hurt as much if your skin, and therefore most of
your nerve endings, are gone?), but if the Scoobies and we
can accept Anya, surely Willow hasn't done anything
unforgiveable.
[> [>
Re: Anya and culpability (more spoilers) -- Ixchel,
09:06:26 05/15/02 Wed
I really got the impression (before Willow "suspended" her)
that Anya was trying to dissuade Willow. Maybe as a
vengeance demon she would have been compelled to exact
vengeance if Willow had wished, but maybe not. Or maybe,
Anya would have done this for Willow (killed Warren) to save
Willow from it. Anya is pragmatic, perhaps believing that
what she did wouldn't matter (what would Warren's death be
compared to other things she's done), but she worried about
the loss of Willow? IMHO, Anya has learned (is learning)
something. I believe she cares about Willow (and Willow
her, that hug in Entropy) and doesn't want Willow to go down
this path. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but Anya's face and
words implied this to me.
I'm not sure if the flaying killed Warren (maybe it did) and
Willow was just disposing of the body?
As to your last statement, I think you have something here,
maybe that's the point (forgiveness)? Rahael has an
excellent post ("my thoughts are all a case of knives")
below that expresses this beautifully.
Ixchel
Pain as a Barrier
to Light......Willow.***spoilers to include season
end*** -- Rufus, 00:10:21 05/15/02 Wed
Willow was called Buffy's "big gun" in The Wish in season
five, now she's proven that some people are too immature to
handle firearms. In "Villians" we get to see exactly what
happens when Willow finally crosses the line in regards to
magic, the one thing she thought she had power over. Tara is
dead, a senseless killing, if you can make sense of why
people kill, cause it's usually the same old, same
old....greed, jealousy, lust. Willow was kept on an even
keel by Tara, who was her link to light, and all it's
meanings.........Herders Dictionary of symbols....
Light: An omnipressent phenomenon that is known in its
effects but is to a great extent incomprehensible in its
essence, it is a common symbol of immateriality, spirit, and
God, but also of life and happiness. A yet finer
distinction exists between the light of the Sun, symbolizing
inspiration and spiritual union, and the light of the moon,
which, as reflected light, symbolizes indirect knowing via
rational, discursive thought.
-Light often occurs in contrast to Darkness, which
in such cases usually represents the failure to recognize,
spiritual dullness, morally underdeveloped or inferior
realms and conditions, death, misfortune, or mystery. -
The spatial concepts "above" and "below" (see Height and
Depth) correspond symbolically to the relationship of light
and darkness. -Practically all fundamental principles
based on a twofold division of the world make reference to
the differentiation of light and darkness (e.g., Ormazd and
Ahriman, Yin and Yang, angels and demons, spirit and matter,
male and female). For many peoples the idea of a ascent
from darkness to the light plays an important role in the
development of both the individual and humanity; numerous
initation rites are also based on this duality.
-The seperation of light and darkness as the positing of
the primal order at the creation of the world occurs in the
cosmogonic concepts of many peoples. -Mystics speak
sometimes of a darkness that lies "beyond" (in contrast to
"below") the light of knowledge and that symbolizes the
fundamental inscrutability of God.
-In art an Aureole, nimbus, or Halo visually expresses the
spirtual illumination of a person.
Willow has always been the geek type, the insecure little
girl who felt powerless, unable to see her posative
atributes as she was so busy ruminating over her failings or
perceived flaws. Then she found something she was very good
at...magic. Willow started her trip into the magical arts
like one would embark on a science experiment, then she
found out that she had actual talent beyond the beaker and
burner experiments in magic. Willow remained in Sunnydale to
help others, keep them safe from danger. But this talent of
Willows never took away that feeling that she was less, the
sidekick, never the hero. Magic took her to a level of
confidence she never had before until Oz suddenly left her,
in pain. Willow has proven that she doesn't much like pain,
wants to go through it the easy way, like in Something
Blue......
Buffy: Drunk..?
(Willow laughs and picks up the bottle)
Willow: Drunk.. I mean, that's such a-a strong word. Kind of
a guttural Anglo-Saxon word. Drunk.
Xander: Will, not loving the drowning of the sorrows.
Willow: Not drowning — wading. A-a-and.. See? (She
points to the beer bottle) Light. No big.
Buffy: No big? Anyone remember when Buffy had the fun beer-
fest and went one-million years B.C.?
Xander: Sadly without the fuzzy bikini..
Anya: Off topic, Xander.
Xander: Right. Topic now. (He gets up and walks to Willow)
Will, how about you give me that beer?
Willow: No! Why should I? I've got pain, here — big-time
legitimate pain.
Xander: We all have pain, Will.
Willow: Oh, like what? "Oh, poor me.. I live in a basement."
Yeah, that's dire.
(Xander, offended, just shakes his head and walks back to
the table. Buffy stands and takes Willow's arm)
Buffy: Okay, you know what? That's it — I'm taking you home.
Willow: (Pulls her arm away) No, I don't want to.
Buffy: Well, you'll thank me when you still have a friend in
the morning.
Willow: I just can't stand feeling this way. I want it
to be over.
Buffy: It will. I promise. But it's gonna take time.
Willow: Well, that's not good enough.
Buffy: I know. It's just how it is. You have to go through
the pain.
Willow: Well, isn't there someway I can just make it go
away? Just ‘cause I say so? Can't I just make it go
‘poof'?
Willow wants pain to go away, go poof, but the trouble is,
pain can't be ignored, it has to be lived through. The pain
of losing Tara isn't something Willow will find has an easy
solution. No spell can take away the pain of losing the love
of your life. For Willow, Tara was a connection to light, to
living. Now that connection to light is gone. Willow tried
to bring her back tonight...
Willow: Hear me...Keeper of Darkness!
Demon: Witch! How dare you invoke Osiris in this task.
Willow: Please....Please bring her back.
Demon: You may not violate the Laws of Natural Passing.
Willow: How? How is this natural?
Demon: It is a Human death by Human means.
Willow: But I......
Demon: You raised one killed by mystical forces. This is not
the same. She is taken by Natural Order. It is done.
Willow: No! There has to be a way!
Demon: It .....is.....done!
Willow: (screams) Nooooo
First thing I notice is part of Willows problem....she says
"but I", she thinks she is the power that brought Buffy
back, instead of someone who invoked the powers that did the
actual job. Willow is arrogant, thinks her will is all that
is needed to manipulate a situation, she is about to pay for
that. This plea to the power starts Willow back on the road
to opening the door to primal forces that are closed off
against this world for a reason. Willow goes and gets a
power surge from the books at the Magic Shop, stopping demon
Anya in her tracks, too powerful to stop by human and some
demon means. Warren went to Rack to get some tricks of his
own and Rack says the one thing that describes Willow
best.....
Rack: Girl is running on pure Fury. I've never felt
anything like it.
The word fury has a meaning beyond anger...Violent,
uncontrolled action; turbulence. This brings me back to the
Primal Forces that Giles warned Willow about in Becoming1
and Flooded and tonight what Buffy said to Dawn......
Buffy: We can't control the universe. If we were supposed
to ...then the magic wouldn't change Willow the way it does.
And....We'd be able to bring Tara back. And Mom. There are
limits to what we can do. There should be. Willow doesn't
want to believe that and now she's messing with forces
that want to hurt HER....ALL OF US.
Just like there is a division between darkness and light,
there is a division between the natural order and primal
forces. Willow is screwing around with things she wasn't
meant to, she can't see that because the only thing she
see's....has become....is dark. The loss of Tara is the loss
of light to Willow, now all she can feel is pain, this pain
has brought her to powers that aren't her friend, want to
harm the world as the Scoobies know it, and Willow is only a
solitary creature of darkness, cut off from the world,
living in the world....by pain. A pain that doesn't go away
by killing the man who wronged her. Willow says it best to
Warren at the end.....
Willow: One tiny piece of metal...destroys
everything....it ripped her insides out..Took her light
away....from me. From the World.
I did a post on the Symbolic use of
Tara, I compared Tara the lover of Willow to the goddess
of love, compassion, who brings the lost to enlightenment.
With Tara gone, Willow is in the dark, but this darkness is
partly her own making. Remember the symbolic use of black in
Willow this episode and next....
Black: it can express both the abundance of life and its
total emptiness. In the sense of the undifferentiatied and
abysmal, it often appears as the designation of darkness,
primal chaos, and death. As the color of mourning, it is
closely associated with resigned pain(thus differing from
the light color white, which signals hope).
You can kill a girl, but you can't kill love, you can't take
away love, compassion, enlightenment.....you do that
yourself by cutting yourself off from the living, trying to
stay with the dead. By doing things the way Willow has
chosen to, she has forgotten what Tara is all about, but I
feel that Tara will always find her, if only by guiding her
somehow back to the light.
[>
Re: Pain as a Barrier to Light......Willow.***spoilers
to include season end*** -- Rufus, 03:16:31 05/15/02
Wed
I forgot to add how I saw the scene where Willow takes the
magic from the books in the Magic Shop. If you consider the
problem of the vampire as caused by an infection, the same
can be said of Willow. I see the introduction of the dark
magic two ways..first like an infection introduced into a
body spreading through infecting the host with darkness, or
like the addiction analogy that everyone so hates, the drug
or dark magic going through the body starting at a point in
the arms where drugs are usually (I know there are many
other points for hypes)injected, drawn up through the body
creating a high. Willow seemed to view the magic as
something she had control over, something she had the power
to stop, like any junkie, she has deluded herself. So
infection, addiction...the vampire's lot and Willows are
similar, hosts acting against the norm due to an infection
or in the case of dark magic, a power high. This is what
Willow does to forget the pain, get it to go poof! What she
doesn't know is that the power will take over, dragging her
along for a ride she never anticipated.
[> [>
Re: Pain as a Barrier to Light......Willow.***spoilers
to include season end*** -- Dedalus, 08:12:12
05/15/02 Wed
Excellent points, Ruf, as always. In theory as well as
presentation. Loved the symbolism stuff.
Okay, so in what ... *checks watch* ... in precisely twenty-
two and a half hours, I'll be viewing that new tale that's
still sat in a galaxy far, far away. The minute I read the
spoilers on Anakin and Willow, I could see how their
journeys were going to be quite similiar.
When TIME magazine asked Lucas how and why does Anakin turn
to the dark side, he replied, "He turns into Darth Vader
because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his
mother; he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go
of things. It makes you greedy. And when you're greedy,
you're on the path to the dark sid, because you fear you're
going to lose things, that you're not going to have the
power that you need."
This parallels Willow's own descent into the dark. Buffy
realizes that human beings can't control everything, nor
should they try. Willow does not. And she needs, in her own
words, "power." It's trying to draw straight lines all over
a universe that is inherently wiggly. Like Anakin, she wants
to bring "order to the galaxy." That is to say, her version
of order.
So in both cases, it's about not being able to let go. It's
about desiring permanence in an impermanent world. It's
about a dire need for security. This is what the dark side
in both cases plays upon. When you can't let go of things,
you set yourself up on a mad conquest, and have to have more
and more power in order to control everything. Yet as my
dear bud Alan Watts points out, life is only worth living
because we're not in control of it.
[> [> [>
Beautiful post Rufus -- ramses 2, 09:25:18
05/15/02 Wed
Mostly lurker on this board but I love your posts.
[> [> [>
Re: Pain as a Barrier to Light......Willow.***spoilers
to include season end*** -- Willow's insecurity,
15:03:43 05/15/02 Wed
Poor Willow. She needs security, because she's never felt
secure in herself or in relation to other people. Always
afraid that what she wants will be taken away, because
either she doesn't deserve it (in her mind) or because she
so seldom got what she wanted. If she is in control, she
won't be so afraid, and as someone stated so well (sorry-
can't remember who), all the scoobies are letting their
fears turn them into what they most dread.
To misquote Princess Leia: the tighter your grasp, the more
what you want will slip away.
[> [> [>
I agree and would add... -- A8, 16:55:04
05/15/02 Wed
that Willow has always sought the meaning of her own
identity in others--first Xander, then Buffy and Gles, Oz,
and finally, Tara. Never able or willing to make the effort
to seek the answers from within, she's always turned to
external forces to define herself--her friendships, love
relationships, academics, and magic. This is the usual
recipe for disaster. It reflects a basic fear to confront
one's flaws, to know one's self.
It's also the classic character flaw of many an addict.
Rather than tolerating the pain necessary to work through
her problems she takes the "easy" route and medicates
herself from without. Although I don't entirely agree with
the methodology of 12 step programs, one of the more logical
steps to break the addiction IMHO is the necessity to
surrender the notion that one can control everything in
life. In 12 step programs, it is often referred to as
believing in a higher power, but in my mind it can be read
to mean adopting the kind of detachment Dedalus comments on
in his post, above. Buffy demonstrated her ability to free
herself from attachment in The Gift, saved her friends and
the world and was aptly rewarded as a consequence. That's
why, despite all her human flaws, she is the show's hero.
Willow has always been the show's "Darth Vader in the wings"
since she's never once exhibited the willingness to let
things be. This was never so evident than when she brought
Buffy back from a Hell that never existed, patted herself on
the back for it and then refused to accept fully her
responsibility (instead tried to cover her tracks with a
spell sloppily executed and threaten those who would
question her judgment) for ripping her "friend" out of a
world of eternal bliss to a world of daily torment. This is
why Willow could never be the hero--she has always lacked
the fundamental character to be anything more than the
sidekick. Everyone fulfills their respective roles here and
it makes for some great drama.
[> [> [> [>
Re: I agree and would add... -- Arethusa,
18:33:41 05/15/02 Wed
And in these respects she reminds me of Wesley, who is going
through a similiar dilemma. He, too, is unable to confront
his flaws, and therefore is unable to compensate for them.
He does not (IMO) like himself either. When Wes first
arrived in Sunnydale, he depended on his position with the
CoW to give him authority, respect and obedience; none of
which he was able to earn on his own behalf. When the
Council fired him, he tried fight demons on his own, and
failed miserably. Working at AI gave him back his self-
respect, but since he, like Willow, looked to others to
validate himself, when he lost his job and friends he lost
everything. That is what makes him potentially vulnerable
to Lilah's rapacious advances, and what made Willow turn so
easily to dark magicks.
[>
Beautiful post! -- Caroline, 12:41:48 05/15/02
Wed
I was saying something similar in my post below. Willow has
to go through the pain and get to the other side, where the
healing can begin. Lovely post!
[> [>
The dialogue I used is from the show and Closed
Caption....spoilers to end of season. -- Rufus,
14:13:45 05/15/02 Wed
Thanks Caroline, I read your post after I posted mine. I had
been off taking notes and double checking with the Closed
Caption transcripts. I go through the dialogue to see what
state of mind the characters are in, and to see what hints
the writers have left in the dialogue. They left a couple of
juicy ones in what Buffy said about the power. She spoke of
the force that in Willow like it is a seperate entity, one
that wants to hurt Willow as well as the rest of them. That
is very important in how they deal with them in the series
finale. It also explains why Buffy will forgive Willow,
happy to have her friend back. To Buffy, saving her friend
is more important than blaming her, some viewers would do
well to follow Buffy's lead. If we consider the 12 steps of
AA, we should remember number step number one, hell I'll
give them all....
The heart of the suggested program of personal recovery
is contained in Twelve Steps describing the experience of
the earliest members of the Society:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our
lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to
the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of
ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being
the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects
of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became
willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible,
except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were
wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our
conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying
only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry
that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these
steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to
practice these principles in all our affairs
Buffy wants the friend she loves back, and the power in
Willow is preventing that, Buffy clearly see's the power as
a seperate entitiy, one that wooed Willow with promises of
recognition, and relief from pain. In the series finale, and
clearly in the promo for next week, Willow doesn't feel
relief from pain from killing Warren, it has just brought
her to a new low, one that has her in more pain. Like in the
first step of AA, Willow has become powerless and her life
no longer manageable. But unlike AA, the power in Willow is
a force with an adgenda all it's own, unrelated to anything
Willow wants or desires, it is only using Willows pain as a
template for destruction. This force has enveloped Willow in
darkness, leaving her lost in her despair, no high able to
lift her to her former self.
[> [> [>
Re: The dialogue I used is from the show and Closed
Caption....spoilers to end of season. -- Caroline,
14:59:54 05/15/02 Wed
I agree with what you are saying in the sense that any
feeling that Willow (or we) have about ultimate control of
our lives, our selves in terms of our dark, destructive
urges is an illusion. When I talk about this stuff I'm
always reminded of a line of Walt Whitman's 'I contain
multitudes'. Who's to say that a lifetime is enough to
explore all that potential?
I think that where I differ with you is that I think that
this is all coming from Willow, that the lack or emptiness
that she feels within herself has certainly attracted to
herself all these dark forces she is becoming involved with.
Willow's use of darker magicks has been slowly escalating
for the last few seasons and now she has stepped over the
line. The reason that she's gone off the deep end is that
she hasn't really learnt the lessons from the previous
encounters. So life has a way of making you face the same
issues over and over again in an ever more powerful form
until you get it right and learn the lesson. But I do
believe that Willow has what is necessary within herself to
shine the light through the darkness. She's not just the
person who is doing all sorts of horrible stuff because of
the pain she is in, she is also the sweet, loving caring
person we have seen throughout the series. The depth of the
love that she had for Tara will show her that and I believe
that love is what will eventually save her. When she feels
that she is worthy to feel that love of herself, not just
others.
[> [> [> [>
Good and Evil......spoilers to end of season --
Rufus, 16:06:14 05/15/02 Wed
Notice in the twelve steps that even though a person may
become powerless in regards to the substance they abuse they
have to take responsibility for their actions and make
amends. Good and evil exist in us all waiting for the things
that can bring out either in us. Willow has always been
considered a person of light, but her hidden insecurities
were there waiting to be exploited. The power that threatens
the world may be around by Willows invocation, but she would
never have let the power loose had she been in her right
mind. Remember Buffy says the power wants to hurt Willow and
us, that is an important line to take over to the finale
next week. Willow didn't just wake up one morning and go
"Hey! I'll destroy the world, great plan!", she had to be
guided into a state where she no longer cared, be it Tara or
something else, the influence that has Willow only had time
on it's side.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Good and Evil......spoilers to end of season --
shadowkat, 19:25:39 05/15/02 Wed
"Willow has always been considered a person of light, but
her hidden insecurities were there waiting to be exploited.
The power that threatens the world may be around by Willows
invocation, but she would never have let the power loose had
she been in her right mind. Remember Buffy says the power
wants to hurt Willow and us, that is an important line to
take over to the finale next week. Willow didn't just wake
up one morning and go "Hey! I'll destroy the world, great
plan!", she had to be guided into a state where she no
longer cared, be it Tara or something else, the influence
that has Willow only had time on it's side."
Agree - it wasn't just Tara that pushed her, its what drove
her to magic in the first place. Remember what she tells
Buffy in Wrecked? "Who would you rather be? Just a girl
or
a superhero - oh I guess you never really had that
choice."
Willow was the Captain of the nerd squad. Amy gets her
to
go out in Smashed with the line: "do you just want to stay
home like you did in high school?" (none of this
dialogue
is exact - because my home system doesn't access two
sites
at once well - but you get the gist). This is the reason she
started magic in the first place - partly as a rebellion to
her parents, partly to be considered valuable and partly to
change her image, to gain empowerment.
The series is about female empowerment and how we seek
it.
Buffy has it - but she gets it from her moral compass, from
her ability not to just kill anything - to be the hero, like
Giles states in the Gift when he kills Ben. Willow - doesn't
have Buffy's inner strength. She's insecure about herself.
Her parents barely notice her. Until Tara came along, Willow
felt alone like a third wheel. Tara was her's.
Remember what Tara says in New Moon Rising (I think that's
the episode) when Willow tells her she just wants something
that is hers, something or someone who makes her feel
special. And Tara says - "I am you know. yours." Now
that
has been ripped from her. It's more than just losing a
girlfriend or a lover, more than even Buffy losing Angel,
or
Giles losing Jenny, it's losing your spirit, your heart,
what makes you want to get up in the morning. (And remember
what Buffy and Giles did when they thought they were losing
Angel or Jenny? Buffy went recklessly after Spike and Dru
and knocked a piano on them, she went to hell after sending
Angel there and left her calling. Giles went after Angelus
on his own almost getting killed.) Willow's spirit was
ripped from her without warning and nothing she
can do can bring it back. Without that spirit, that calming
light - all of Willow's emotions have been released,
boiled
up and taken over. And what Giles says in Pangs is true -
once vengence begins - it's never sated, it never ends.
All
it wants is to kill. Buffy is right - Willow has lost
control of her emotions of her power - it has consumed
her.
What we see is not really Willow any more. It's Willow's id,
the emotional core.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Good and Evil......spoilers to end of season --
Rufus, 20:22:23 05/15/02 Wed
What we see is not really Willow any more. It's Willow's
id, the emotional core.
Look at the dialogue between Buffy and Dawn about Willow and
magic......it tells you what has happened to Willow. It's no
longer Willow running the show, she drew dark magic into
herself and has become something else. It was a big hint to
what happens next week.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Good and Evil......spoilers to end of season --
Caroline, 07:26:30 05/16/02 Thu
Still disagree. It think that the good and bad parts are all
coming from Willow. Noone else. And that's what she has to
take responsibility for. In psychological terms, she has to
recognise that these things are parts of her, she has to
understand why she's like this, forgive herself for it, and
accept herself as she is. That means that she still is who
she is, good and bad part all, but that she has enough of
her own identity to hold and contain all the parts of
herself so that her rage does not spill over to everything
else and destroy the world. Her anger right now is the anger
of a child - but I'll stop here 'cos I'll just be repeating
my post on her journey and there's work to be done!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Quote from David Fury interview.....spoilers for Two to
go and Grave -- Rufus, 14:46:30 05/16/02 Thu
C: How are the fans going to come back from this? Fans
are protetive of Willow.
D: She could skin you alive.
K: Horrific and gruesome, not just killing him.
D: You have to consider the fact, will be more clear when
you see the last two episodes. This isn't Willow anymore.
She is something not of herself. The same thing Willow did,
Spike commited attrocities. Some people are forgiving of
that. You blame the demon.
D: It's not a soul issue, is she the Willow that we know?
She has so much power now and so much in here. You will see
next week, it's not really her. She will have a lot
to deal with, and btw this is no paralell universe, no
alternate dimension. Willow will be paying for it and
dealing with it next season.
When I originally wrote my post I hadn't heard the Fury
interview, it was what Buffy had said about the power that
wanted to hurt Willow, hurt us, that sent me in the
direction I went. So, all we can do is wait til next week
and see what happens.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
If she's not responsible, why does she have to pay?
-- Caroline, 21:21:09 05/16/02 Thu
Of course Buffy doesn't want to think that Willow is capable
of this. But it was a possessed person I saw grieving over
Willow, asking Osiris to give Tara back, seeking the dark
magic in her resolve for vengeance against Warren. That was
all Willow's choice, not a demon's. To me, it was the
logical progression of her past behaviour. To cop out and
say it's not her would be as horrible a plot point as the
addiction thing and it would have the same effect - Willow
would learn nothing, she wouldn't find the causes of her
behaviour and all she would be doing is being the good
adapted child and pretend like everything is good on the
outside and still have the same problems inside.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: If she's not responsible, why does she have to
pay? -- Rufus, 00:42:37 05/17/02 Fri
Hey I'm not the writer that said that it wasn't Willow
anymore....we have to wait til next week to see how well
they pull that one off. I still think of all the recovery
stuff where the person may be powerless over the thing they
are addicted to, and that they do things they wouldn't
normally do, but in the end the person has to make amends
for what they have done in a drugged, drunk, magic drunk
state.
[> [> [>
PS - I printed off both you posts - and enjoy the many
others I read. Thanks! -- Caroline, 15:04:40 05/15/02
Wed
The Power of
Three, Ramses 2 and Yeats. Spec on Season Seven and Beyond.
*Spoilers, Long* -- EMCEE with many references,
00:34:56 05/15/02 Wed
First off, introductions.
I am a regular poster to The Buffy Cross and Stake Spoiler
Board. My name is Melissa Carter. I am from Vancouver B.C.,
I am a nurse and my age is 30. This is my first post ever
to this board.
Wow! Ramses 2 (a Buffy Cross and Stake Spoiler Board (BC&S)
poster) your post earlier and the responses it received
sent me on a journey of deep contemplation, research and
spoiler speculation for season seven and beyond. Thank
you.
In Ramses 2 post, she mentioned The Power of Three. The
following is an excerpt from her post 'Metaphors, semiotics,
power outages, the power of three (spoilers)' :
“ I was in the middle of post to eeyore when everything went
dead, cast in darkness. well there we we're, my little
family eating stew, yes stew huddled around candles, each
reading our Terry Pratchett book. My son wondered aloud
about the number three. Why did it seem so important. We
each refered to an example. The witches in Macbeth. Father,
son, holy ghost. Mother, father, child. A third is important
in telling a story. Was it Aeschylus or Sophocles that added
a third player to Plato's dialogs, birthing the art of
theatre?
In BTVS, we've had the scoobies centered by three.
Willow,xander, buffy. I think we have another three as well,
Dawn, spike, buffy. Each is a family unit. Maybe the
scoobies represent Buffy. Head, heart and hands. Giles
leaves so she can get balanced. Rely on herself, her own two
feet. Her own, head, heart, hands.”
She goes on to focus on the Buffy/Dawn/Spike triad. Buffy
has a human or an emotional side represented by Dawn and
slayer side or a dark side represented by Spike. Both of
these elements, in her view, work to balance each other out
internally within Buffy. She states that Buffy hasn’t
accepted, is fighting against or is ashamed of this violent
or dark side of herself and uses the examples of almost
killing everyone in NA, the beating Buffy gives Spike in DT
and the rape scene in SR. She includes that Buffy has become
“emotionless” by distancing herself from Dawn.
Next she talks about how this season is rich in metaphor,
contrary to what she has seen published on the boards and
says “this season has been brilliantly written” which I
happen to agree with very much. She then tells us that these
metaphors have been used to explore the heroine, Buffy in
the contexts of “death”, “rebirth” and acceptance of the
monsters within her. She concludes her piece with “I'm
guessing end of season we have a Buffy who accepts her fate.
Just as Spike shrugs his off. Hero and anti-hero.”
People were very positive about what Ramses 2 had to say
which included many examples of threes and to the idea of
“rebirth”. Also people were very enthusiastic on her stance
on Spuffy which I will counter.
In the posts following The Power of Three was detailed as a
positive, balancing concept between all aspects of life such
as relationships (parents and child), kingdoms of nature
(animal, vegetable, mineral), base colors (red, yellow,
blue) and the world (air, sea, land), and the nature of man
(body, mind and spirit).
*Special thanks to Ian for supplying one example and
aardvark for including Ian’s example and the rest. (Both
posters to BC&S)
Being realistic unfortunately, ME stands the positive
concept of the The Power of Three on it’s head with regards
to relationships. TGWShark (BC&S poster) provided
Pythagoras’s Theorum and questioned what it had to do with
Buffy and my answer is a great deal! Pythagoras's theory
describes right angle triangles with uneven sides, just as
ME’s relationship triads are. Looking way back to Season
fives, Triangle is a great way to illustrate this point. The
relationship triangles that were present in the ep were most
obviously Buffy/Joyce/Dawn, Riley/Buffy/Spike,
Willow/Xander/Anya and Giles/Anya/Willow, though there are a
few more. Both the Riley/Buffy/Spike and the
Giles/Anya/Willow relationships are severely unbalanced by
having Riley and Giles, for part of the ep, gone. The family
triad is exceptionally unbalanced due to both Joyce being
ill at that point and Dawn showing signs of mistrust of her
family in her self-questioning (this was before she knew
that she was The Key). What the ep focuses on is the angst
ridden Willow/Xander/Anya grouping. If you recall both
Willow and Anya had difficulties working together to run the
Magic Shop when Giles is gone and put Xander in the middle
of their bickering. Xander was forced to vent his discord
with Spike during the ep. Also Xander is put on the spot by
having to pick who dies, either Anya or Willow, at the hands
of Anya’s ex-troll. Fortunately for us, he couldn’t at the
time. The most telling point that ME shows us of this
unstable trio is what they ultimately produce, a Magic Shop
in shambles.
In looking ahead to next season and beyond, the question
remains what could happen that would promote the most
unstable triangles within the current Scoobies? Well I think
that the second most destabilizing factor would be the
pairing of Buffy and Xander. If one walks through the
triangle mixes, it is easy to spot how this pairing would
disrupt things on many levels. This sets up an animosity
between Buffy and Anya in a Buffy/Xander/Anya trio. It
causes the same animosity on the flip side of the equation
between whatever Spike becomes and Xander within the
Buffy/Xander/Spike grouping. Also, with Buffy and Xander
together, it creates an unevenness within the
Willow/Buffy/Xander triad which I feel along with many
posters is going to be the chief focus based on the Joss
proposed theme of “Back to the Beginning”. Where does this
leave Dawn? Well it leaves her in a confusing place amongst
all of the groupings I foresee but it opens up an
interesting and exciting triad with what I feel would be a
solid basis for The Slayer: Next Generation that has been
speculated on. This in my view is Xander/Dawn/Spike trio.
Both whatever Spike becomes and Xander would be great to
play off of and guide, Dawn, the logical choice for the next
slayer spin off. What about the first? I will get to that
later.
The William Bulter Yeats poem has been bandied about
recently in speculation due to it being referenced in
Entropy. This poem is revelvent to the discussion because
implies a rebirth of a different nature contrary to Ramses 2
assertion. This the poem:
The Second Coming -- W. B. Yeats
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Certainly one can see that this first stanza outlines or
parallels some the key aspects Season six BVTS. The
falcon/falconer could obviously be likened to the lack of
communication between all the Scoobies. This interruption in
communication has shaken their strength and has eroded their
friendship or their “center”. The next two lines clearly
mirror the events leading up to and of Villians with mayhem
or “anarchy” created by The Troika within the Scooby Gang
drawing the “blood” of both Buffy and Tara. The finish of
Buffy and Spikes multi-season long relationship in the
bathroom scene could be summarized in the sixth line, their
“innocence” gone and replaced with mistrust, anger, unease
and the establishment of boundaries. The final two lines sum
up the Scooby Gang when examining the sides of each member
individually. Each Scoobies bad side of themselves or their
worst fears have exploded onto the stage with “passionate
intensity” while their more positive attributes have been
passively sitting in the nose-bleed section “lacking
conviction”. To give an example, Anya’s worst fear of
failing at being human has come up to the plate with her
turning to her VD ways while her new found love of humanity
has been benched (special thanks to Willows Familiar, BC&S
poster).
What of the second stanza? This is another foray into my
speculation for next season. What first struck my eye are
words “second coming”, “lion/man”, nightmare by a rocking
cradle” and the full last line “slouches towards Bethlehem
to be born”. “Second coming” suggests all sorts of meanings
for me the most important of which is Satan (oh, the Omen
overtones). What is interesting is that this “Second Coming”
is going to happen immanently or so it seems to Yeats in a
time where the world is in great upheaval. The lion and the
man, obviously a Sphinx reference leads me to think that
this is an Oreo incarnation, an evilness inside disguised in
a human casing outside. Two things are interesting with the
poetry surrounding these standout words. The locale of this
bad cookie is in the desert, the barren, uncivilized
wasteland and that death becomes this creature with the
vultures/desert birds which are close at hand. The next two
phrases “rocking cradle” and “to be born” coupled together
point to the possibility of the birth of some horrible thing
in some place geographically important (oh The Bad Seed
overtones). In a nutshell, the Yeats reference outlines how
the big bad of season seven will come to be for BVTS.
Playing connect the dots with what Yeats says and what I
know is to come is easy but there are other discoveries and
conclusions to be made. In my view there are three persons
who fall into the Yeats Prophesy. Firstly Spike is going to
a desert to be become something else, who knows at this
point what. I don’t think that he will be the second coming
of the Evil Oreo as foretold by the clues in Yeats for a
number of reasons which I am sure are detailed in
GeordieGirl’s post called 'Practical Reasons Why Spike Will
Not Come Back Evil' and in the following replies. My
rational is that Spike has never achieved the status of the
big bad only the little bad in the five years that we have
been with him. I don’t think that he will start now. If he
were to become a black character, his three dimensional
status as a gray character would be lost, making him
zzzzzzzzz to watch which doesn’t add up to great TV or
ratings. Additionally, he was bad and we have been there and
done that. In line with the Joss proposed “Back To the
Beginning” theme of next season, Spike will likely be some
sort of human/vampire mix gaining soul-like attributes. It
has been speculated that Buffy will explore her slayer roots
with the African looking first slayer leading the way in the
season seven with the well-known theme. While I think that
Buffy will rummage around in her slayerness and will be
forced to go to dark, desolate, barren places similar to the
ones described by Yeats’s prose on her guided journey, it is
a laughable concept to think that Buffy will be the Big Bad.
The third well, I will get to that next.
Well I have left several unanswered questions throughout my
discussion. Firstly, what do relationship triangles and The
Second Coming have to do with each other? What would the
most unsettling trio of them all be for next season? Lastly
who is the third person I could see fall into Yeats
prophetic yarn? Well to bring it all together, I think that
Satan or some one equally as evil will be born out of the
loins of baron wasteland of death which is the Hellmouth, a
geographically important, tumultuous place. This will occur
in the first few eps of next season. This evil will be
disguised in human form and I feel that Amber Benson will
play this Big Bad Cookie. What? Look at my reasoning and it
is long. Firstly who spoke the line which the Yeats was
referenced. The following was taken from the shooting script
of Entropy.
TARA (O.S.)
Things fall apart, they fall so
hard...
From a popular shooting script site (PSIW)
Secondly, this would be Amber Bensons “Second Coming” to the
BVTS. Thirdly, it adheres to many of the principles outlined
by Joss. The first of these being “careful what you wish
for”. Haven’t the Kittens and some of us been screaming for
Tara to come back? Well they and us could have Amber Benson
playing an anti-Tara. The second is the theme “Back to the
Beginning”. Where better take the story but back to the
Hellmouth where the first big bad, The Master, was trying to
escape. The third principle is “give them what they need”.
Well I think that having Tara come back as a spirit guide
would be nice though it would not be what we would need.
What we need is great storytelling and this would make for a
big WOW. The fourth principle has to do with the BVTS canon.
It has always stated that using serious dark magic always
comes to no good. A Tara looking Satan would be the ultimate
come uppance for Willow and her misdeeds this season with
killing Warren as she did tonight and raising Buffy from the
dead. For more practical and financial reasons, it would
allow ME to keep a such a beautiful talented actress just as
it would allow us the viewer to see her talent shine playing
a bad and keep to their story arc in of Season 6. Also, it
is known that she is contracted with options next season and
by doing this it would seem like Steven DeKnight wasn’t
lying after all. Lastly and I still haven’t gotten to the
triangles though it must seem obvious to you. What an
ultimate rough ride with the grouping of
TaraSatan/Willow/Scooby Gang befitting of the ME way. That
is what I see. I hope that you have enjoyed your stay.
Cheers
CC Joss's Stakehouse, BC&S Spoiler Board
[>
Re: The Power of Three, Ramses 2 and Yeats. Spec on
Season Seven and Beyond. *Spoilers, Long* -- Ronia,
00:54:12 05/15/02 Wed
Wow...and may I add bravo? I think quite a few people
noticed the yeats refferrence in entropy, but none
(including myself) had taken it beyond "the center does not
hold" I was dimly thinking "what rough beast, it's hour
come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born",
but hadn't gotten much beyond that. It sure would be
interesting. Hope Joss is reading this. And it would be
even more interesting (and likely) because Tara has not been
allowed any faults this season, so we remember her fondly.
Too tired to check spelling, should stop and go to bed.
Welcome to the board.
[> [>
Excellent! -- Cactus Watcher, 06:11:43 05/15/02
Wed
We have at least two more posters from Vancouver. Hope
you'll stick around!
[> [> [>
Emcee I found you (great post but here's more
argument) -- ramses 2, 09:11:01 05/15/02 Wed
I had a little bit more on my take on three. Here goes:
But i think Buffy is learning. In the story of Bodhisattva
we have an androgynous (Buffy, little delicate blonde who
kicks ass and saves the day) character who goes through two
seemingly opposite adventures. The first, meeting with the
godess, is sexual, the character discovers, "two halves of a
split peas," the second is atonement with the father.
Erasing the lines of father/son. The first could be seen as
B/S, think the door scene. Or Buffy's plaintiff,"Why can't I
stop?" The second adventure, could be B/D. The line between
parent/child is all but erased.
At the end of both journeys it is discovered that the
bodhisatta is actually remembering that in both cases it is
herself that she came to find.(The slayer, you only think
you know)
In the myth, like the erasing of lines between father/son,
we see an erasure of lines between life and death. There is
a rejection of nirvana. (this season anyone? Torn from
heaven. Going through the motions but wanting to feel alive.
I touch the fire but it freezes me)
Now Nirvana is the "extinguishing of the threefold fire of
desire, hostility, and delusion." Spike, slayer, dawn. Buffy
rejects Nirvana, she wants to feel the fire. Her journey is
to walk through the fire and control it.
Buffy has been wrestling with herself this whole season.
Every bit of what we watch is reflective of her struggle. We
have to watch the show metaphorically or we lose a part of
her struggle. This includes SR scene.
The Bodhisattva truimphs in the end, he controls the three
fold fire(the power of the universe) within him, keeping it
an ember inside himself. With this, he is able to live like
other human beings. A savior among us.
Buffy will have to accept everything she rejects about
herself.(DT scene with Tara(godess), tell me I'm wrong. Why
do I feel this way?) AYW has her trying to reject Spike
completely. She can't. She needs him.She tries again in SR.
NA is Buffy struggling with delusion. Rejecting the truth
about herself. This whole season has been her struggling
against herself, yearning to be like other people. Funny
thing is, if she accepts herself, both Buffy and slayer than
she would be able to live comfortably amongst the people she
saves.
[>
Welcome, EMCEE! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 11:25:26
05/15/02 Wed
How wonderful to welcome another Vancouverite to the Board,
and with such an interesting, thought-provoking post!
You're a nurse? Well, politically, my condolences, and is
there any chance we ran into each other at VGH recently?
Just a thought...
;o)
[> [>
To Cactus Watcher and Wisewoman..... -- EMCEE, 15:28:17
05/15/02 Wed
I am finding more and more that I am less and less alone
here in Vancouver in my love of Buffy. It makes me
smile.
Thank you both for taking the time to read my post.
I will be doing these thought things from time to time. I
enjoyed my journey with this one. Gave me a greater
appriciation for my fellow posters.
Wisewoman, I work at St. Pauls not VGH and no I have not
gone there recently. Thank you for your concern, the
changes will not happen overnight.
Email me if you both wish with the Vancouver Perspective on
Buffy in the future. I would be interested in what you had
to say.
Cheers
[> [> [>
Hey, I go there........... -- Rufus, 15:55:40
05/15/02 Wed
I used to go to that Hospital to see a friend....which part
do you work in......says Rufus who used to work
downtown.
[> [> [>
Re: To Cactus Watcher and Wisewoman..... -- Cactus
Watcher, 19:04:46 05/15/02 Wed
I'm NOT from Vancouver. I was just letting you know about
Rufus and Wisewoman/dub-dub, in case they missed your post.
Stick around and you'll have more friends in Phoenix,
Arizona, too. ;o)
[> [>
Re: Welcome, EMCEE! ;o) -- Rufus, 15:57:52
05/15/02 Wed
I tried to post earlier and got the lock problem. I said hi
to EMCEE at the Stakehouse a few days ago. There are more
people in the Vancouver area that like Buffy than I
thought.
I said hi as Leora, my Cross and Stake name.
[> [> [>
Just another reason... -- dubdub, 16:15:53
05/15/02 Wed
...to have the Finale Reunion in Vancouver!
;o)
[>
Welcome EMCEE and great post..(Spoilers for Villains
and Spec) -- shadowkat, 19:07:11 05/15/02 Wed
EMCEE - that was brillant. I think you have something
here.
Tara coming back as either "first evil" or as the Big
Bad with Tara's face - works on several levels:
1. Irony
2. Karmic punishment for Willow on a cosmic scale equaling
what she did. Also her magics very well could have caused
it. (Like Dawn almost did in bringing Joyce back in Forever?
Also hooks the seasons together rather brillantly,
Restless images, Forever, Buffy's deaths...don't have time
to run through all of it - that's another long post.)
3. Will push the series to an interesting closure with the
Hellmouth and why it must be destroyed. (Tara emerges from
it, after Willow accidently opens it - and they need to
close it? Or Dawn does?)
4. Works metaphorically all the way back to Season 1 - we
can link it to the Master, the Annoited one, to the
first
evil, to Dracula, to all of them. (another long post)
5. Would move all characters forward developmentally -
force
them to deal with grey and furthers the themes set up in
Season 1 -6 that the villains can wear a friend's face.
(yet another long post)
I can see this happening and I can see them doing it.
For
all the reasons you suggest. It tracks. Good job.
Gee here I was getting burned out on essays and wondering
what the point was and if I was just overanalyzing
everything and you come along with this brillant spec and
get me thinking again.
Hope this rambling mess made sense...I'm sort of brain dead
right now - like Buffy would say: fire bad, tree pretty.
Positive Role
Models (spoilers Villians) -- neaux, 04:57:09
05/15/02 Wed
You know that saying.. the one that could possibly qualify
as a philosophy..
"When Life throws you lemons, you make Lemonade."
You probably know where I am going with this, but lemme take
a little moment to elaborate why Clem is an absolutley
wonderful Positive Role Model. One that is very important
for Dawn. One that during an episode of extremely disturbing
violence, is the only sign of Light/good in a new dark dark
world.
The scene where Buffy gets Dawn to stay with Clem probably
put smiles on everyone's faces. I hope so at least. Clem is
such a nice guy. He points out that life is full of
lemons... lets make lemonade. And he already had some just
made in the fridge.
If there is any hope of helping Dawn grow up with a positive
outlook, Clem did his damn best of helping her. He points
out his own physical flaws and jokes about his flabbiness.
But he knows there are better things in life, like eating
Bugles!! Again,.. more happy!!
You actually see Buffy smile a little in this scene.
Either he made her laugh a little or more importantly put
Buffy at ease. Buffy needed a good place and a good person
to look over Dawn and I think that smile was a sigh of
relief.
There was no whining from Dawn either. Even though Spike
wasnt there, Dawn didnt say much. I mean who can turn down
Bugles and Lemonade and a nice comfy chair.
There isnt much more to say in this post except think about
what Clem would do. I have a feeling today will be flooded
with little Nastiesabout Willow and Warren, so I wanted to
write this to hopefuly put a little smile on everyone's
face.
[>
New Motto! "What would Clem do?" --
Darby, 05:50:46 05/15/02 Wed
[>
Re: Positive Role Models (spoilers Villians) -- CW,
06:49:49 05/15/02 Wed
Hope he didn't teach Dawn to play Parcheesi for kittens! ...
He of the floppy ears is certainly there when you need him
most. ;o)
[> [>
Re: Positive Role Models (spoilers Villians) -- T-Rex,
07:14:19 05/15/02 Wed
I have this vision of Clem winning at kitten poker, then
setting his winnings free.
[> [> [>
Interesting... -- Wisewoman, 09:38:06 05/15/02
Wed
That's exactly the stance we take at Clem's Homestead:
http://www.clem.homestead.com/index.html
;o)
[> [> [> [>
Excellent! I am so loving Clem. (NT) -- T-Rex,
08:42:43 05/16/02 Thu
[>
Re: Positive Role Models (spoilers Villians) --
verdantheart, 06:57:07 05/15/02 Wed
Well, Spike really needed a buddy, and I think it's
interesting that it would be a demon as optimistic and
supportive (and innocuous) as Clem. Quite a contrast with
the minions he collected as a powerful slayer-killing
vampire. I also found it interesting that he didn't say a
word about why Spike left and the state of mind he was
in.
[> [>
Re: Positive Role Models (spoilers Villians) --
neaux, 07:47:42 05/15/02 Wed
I found that interesting too, but Clem is not a scooby.
Only Scoobies meddle in other people's affairs.
[> [>
It's in the shooting script for SR -- Traveler,
08:04:19 05/15/02 Wed
"I also found it interesting that he didn't say a word
about why Spike left and the state of mind he was
in."
By the time Spike left, Clem was convinced that everything
was more or less back to normal, so the reasons for Spike
leaving are almost as a much a mystery to him as they are to
the scooby gang.
[> [>
Re: Positive Role Models (spoilers Villians) --
Ete, 13:07:58 05/15/02 Wed
>>Quite a contrast with the minions he collected as a
powerful slayer-killing vampire
Let's see... Dalton, vampire who likes to read and ... er,
who else ?
[> [> [>
Re: Positive Role Models (spoilers Villians) --
Vickie, 15:40:02 05/15/02 Wed
I don't remember any names, but Spike and Dru took over the
Master's group. Later, he had a bunch of vamps digging for
the gem of Amara. He had minions.
Where do you think Harmony got the idea? Not like the twit
ever had an original thought. ;-)
[> [>
Re: Positive Role Models (spoilers Villians) --
LittleBit, 15:42:43 05/15/02 Wed
Well, he could hardly tell her that they'd had a talk about
how she was a nice girl but...Issues!, could
he?
Of all the possible persons to leave Dawn with, Clem is an
outstanding choice.
[>
This is pure speculation on my part (I'm unspoiled),
but -- Sophist, 08:18:33 05/15/02 Wed
didn't anyone else get a feeling of impending doom when
Buffy left Dawn with Clem?
[> [>
Yes, I am paranoid! -- Talia, 08:41:15 05/15/02
Wed
mild spoilers through villains, no spoilage beyond.
I'm glad I'm not alone on this. I love Clem. He's funny
and sweet. But we don't really know him yet. I am
concerned about Dawn's safety. If Willow or some other
nasty comes through on a rampage, I'm not sure he could
protect her. More important, we don't know whether Clem
really is as good as he seems. He is a demon. He plays
kitten poker. I want him to be a nice guy, but the fact
remains that it could all be a great big facade.
Yes I am paranoid. But we've seen so many good people
making bad choices (both stupid-bad and evil-bad) this
season that I cannot automatically assume that Dawn is safe
with Clem just because he's friends with Spike and eats junk
food.
[> [> [>
Yes... more's the point... -- Tillow, 08:46:41
05/15/02 Wed
Clem has made no such promise to protect Dawn until the end
of the world. He's just in Spike's crypt, he's not Spike.
Yikes.
[> [> [>
Possible but remember this year's theme -- neaux,
08:52:34 05/15/02 Wed
To be honest I was a bit worried myself.. but I remembered
this year's theme about how Humans are just as bad as
monsters.. if not worse
and I believe that Dawn staying with a Demon makes sense
with the storyline.
and I trust in Clem!
[> [> [> [>
But think of the twist possibilities... (unspoiled
spec) -- DaveW, 09:37:18 05/15/02 Wed
Who was I most worried about heading into last year's
finale? Willow, Tara, Xander, Anya. Who dies? The
character I shouldn't have to worry about. Who am I most
worried about heading into this year's finale? Willow
(mostly) and Xander. Who's in a seemingly safe but
unsecured spot? Dawn. I don't trust the demon, and I don't
trust ME (which is why the show is so engaging, I
suspect).
[> [>
Do we know what sort of demon Clem is? -- Marie,
08:47:32 05/15/02 Wed
'cos I'm thinking if it's a 'Clemency demon', good, but clem
as in 'to starve', then - oops!
M
(not to upset dubdub, of course!)
[> [> [>
Really, Marie! -- dubdub, 09:42:49 05/15/02
Wed
Clem is a "Loose-skinned Demon." I think that's all we know
for sure but, of course, I opt for the "clemency"
interpretation!
;o)
[> [>
Yes, I am paranoid! -- Talia, 08:48:21 05/15/02
Wed
mild spoilers through villains, no spoilage beyond.
I'm glad I'm not alone on this. I love Clem. He's funny
and sweet. But we don't really know him yet. I am
concerned about Dawn's safety. If Willow or some other
nasty comes through on a rampage, I'm not sure he could
protect her. More important, we don't know whether Clem
really is as good as he seems. He is a demon. He plays
kitten poker. I want him to be a nice guy, but the fact
remains that it could all be a great big facade.
Yes I am paranoid. But we've seen so many good people
making bad choices (both stupid-bad and evil-bad) this
season that I cannot automatically assume that Dawn is safe
with Clem just because he's friends with Spike and eats junk
food.
[> [>
Yes. Buffy wouldn't even have trusted a human that
fast, but maybe that's the point... -- yuri, 00:10:51
05/17/02 Fri
Hmmmm, are demons that seem to be good more likely to be
good than humans who seem to be good? Either it could be a
developing weirdness of Buffy, or a comment on the honesty
of demons (eesh). Yes, some demons may pretend to be humans
and trick people (favorite pastime of vamps, apparently, and
moloch et al) but it seems rare that demons are like "look
at me I'm a demon, I'm good." I could be totally wrong about
this part, but if I am I still think that my first point
holds.
[> [> [>
Re: Yes. Buffy wouldn't even have trusted a human that
fast, but maybe that's the point... -- Wisewoman,
10:48:45 05/17/02 Fri
Interesting. It's possible that Joss/ME have actually
succeeded in teaching us to trust demons over humans. I
remember how suspicious I was of Tara's behaviour until
Spike punched her in the nose and revealed her to be fully
human--but that was the point, she appeared to be fully
human and very "good" and I didn't trust that!
To this point I have no suspicions of Clem...maybe it's
foolish, but I trust him completely.
;o)
[> [> [> [>
Re: Yes. Buffy wouldn't even have trusted a human that
fast, but maybe that's the point... -- redcat,
14:44:21 05/17/02 Fri
Dearest dub-dub,
We've never spoken, but I feel like I know you from all the
kindness and joy you elicit in others who do. I love your
Clem website, but as someone with a smattering of kitty-cat
DNA, I'm in need of some soothing on this issue. I don't
know if you've yet seen the shooting script for "Villians"
(now posted at Psyche's transcripts - thanks! Psyche,
whomever you are...), but if you haven't, here's Clem's
opening line in the scene in Spike's crypt:
============================
Buffy and Dawn step into Spike's lair. Spike, turned away
from them in his old chair, watches TV.
Buffy moves quietly to the back of the chair.
BUFFY
Spike-
Startled, the figure in the chair JUMPS, spilling a bowl of
potato chips in the process. It's not Spike at all - it's
CLEM the loose skinned demon.
CLEM
Suffering cats! Where did you come
from!?
Clem puts his hand on his heart - like he's afraid it's
going to jump out of his chest.
=================================
Now, while I'm relieved to know that our dear loose-skinned
buddy has a heart, I'm still concerned about his
relationship with my furry (and suffering) cousins. Please
help, oh wisewoman, I beseech you. I WANT to like Clem, I
really, really do...
yours,
redcat
ps - please do not give Clem my home address. thanks.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Dear redcat,,, -- Wisewoman, 15:06:44
05/17/02 Fri
Oh, my dear, cease your worry! All is well for kittens in
Clem's world.
Just think about this--when startled, don't all of us
sometimes resort to shouted expletives? Don't we sometimes
latch on to the darkest, most vile curses we know to express
our fear? And this is Clem's reaction, too. When Buffy
scares the s*** out of him, Clem's instinctive reaction is
to give name to one of the worst things he can think of,
"suffering cats."
I believe it's because he feels that his mission in life is
to halt the suffering of cats, in particular, and everyone
he comes in contact with, as much as possible!
Hope this helps...
;o)
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Yes, he worries about "suffering cats".....la
la la la la.....;) -- Rufus, 17:05:12 05/17/02
Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [>
thanks, WW, I feel all soothed now... except when I
listen to Rufus laugh... -- redcat, 18:23:53 05/17/02
Fri
[>
Clem -- Wisewoman, 09:49:28 05/15/02 Wed
Great post, neaux! I'm hoping to update the Clem's Homestead
site later today, and one of the things I think I'll do is
relate Clem's Philosophy of Life to something he says to
Dawn in Villians:
YOU can have the comfy chair!
That pretty much sums him up, if you ask me.
(If you're interested, Clem's Homestead site is here)
;o)
[> [>
Your website gets cooler and cooler each time I see
it!! -- neaux, 10:40:57 05/15/02 Wed
[> [>
And we need to send Clem a copy of "The Wedding
Planner"! As a birthday present, perhaps? ;o) --
Rob, 11:41:12 05/15/02 Wed
[> [>
Great site dubdub, and who'd have thought he'd look so
good under all that skin!?! -- O'Cailleagh, 23:36:23
05/15/02 Wed
[> [> [>
Re: Warren certainly didn't... -- dubdub,
19:56:45 05/16/02 Thu
ooops, did I say that?
[> [> [> [>
Funny! and ick! -- ponygirl, 06:55:42 05/17/02
Fri
[> [>
Love the website! -- ravenhair, 18:20:06
05/16/02 Thu
C_companionship; a friend to Spike & mingles well at
parties
L_laughter; Clem makes everyone smile :)
E_encouragement; "Hey, c'mon mister negative..."
M_mercy; acts with compassion towards all
I love CLEM !!
[> [> [>
Re: Oooooh, can I post this? -- Wisewoman,
19:15:38 05/16/02 Thu
It could be the first entry on the Odes to Clem page!
;o)
[> [> [> [>
Certainly, I would be honored -- ravenhair,
19:39:30 05/16/02 Thu
[>
Question -- dream of the consortium, 12:12:17
05/16/02 Thu
I add my name to the list of Clem-lovers. Hope he gets more
screen time next year, because the loss of Tara is going to
leave us without a certain sort of simple but mature
goodness. Wouldn't it be interesting to have the most
innocent character on the show be a demon?
Question: What was the movie he was watching? I assume
there has to be some significance, because the shot was held
long enough for it to be identified. It looked familiar, but
I couldn't place it.
Also liked that he wanted to see the Wedding Planner - are
we to assume that the black and white film he has fallen
asleep in front of is a video of Spike's? Or just what
happened to be on?
[> [>
the movie was Meet John Doe -- ponygirl,
13:50:28 05/16/02 Thu
Haven't seen the movie myself, so I leave it to others to
find the significance. From the imdb:
As a parting shot, fired reporter Ann Mitchell prints a fake
letter from unemployed "John Doe," who threatens suicide in
protest of social ills. The paper is forced to rehire Ann
and hires John Willoughby to impersonate "Doe." Ann and her
bosses cynically milk the story for all it's worth, until
the made-up "John Doe" philosophy starts a whole political
movement. At last everyone, even Ann, takes her creation
seriously...but publisher D.B. Norton has a secret plan.
[> [> [>
Thanks -- dream of the consortium, 06:07:30
05/17/02 Fri
Haven't seen that movie in at least ten years, so not
surprised I couldn't place it. I also unfortunately
couldn't begin to analyze its use in this context - though I
do remember that it's a great film.
[> [> [> [>
"Meet John Doe" is significant because
(spoilers for "Villains") -- cjl, 07:39:09
05/17/02 Fri
It perfectly encapsulates some of Willow's internal
conflicts at this moment. Like John Doe and his false
populist guru persona, Willow assumed a "constructed"
identity, Superwitch Willow, but never shook the feeling
that she was an impostor in hero's clothing.
If you buy in to the parallel, the climax of "Meet John Doe"
(on ClemTV as Buffy and Dawn walk in) also hints at the
climax of Season 6--but I won't get into that right now. (I
don't want to set off the board gods and get deleted
again...)
[> [> [> [> [>
When did you ever get deleted? -- The Board
Goddess, 16:47:45 05/17/02 Fri
Moved into the archives, maybe...
Unless you were naughty and put future spoilers in your
subject line, but I don't remember you doing that.
Masq
Nature of reality
in Buffy -- Cate, 08:28:11 05/15/02 Wed
Hi everybody, I'm doing a philosophy presentation on the
nature of reality, and I want to talk about Buffy. Any of
you experts know good episodes to talk about, issues
covered, knowledge claims, sources of knowledge, etc? Any
help would be great. Thank you!
[>
Re: Nature of reality in Buffy -- Cactus Watcher,
08:52:03 05/15/02 Wed
You might want to start with those episodes where the
reality within the story is dramatically changed:
The Wish - Buffy had never been to Sunnydale.
No Place Like Home - Dawn created, Buffy experiments with
heightened consciousness.
Restless - Dream world
Life Serial - The Nerd Troika plays with Buffy's
reality.
[> [>
Good choices - and I would add -- matching mole,
09:00:58 05/15/02 Wed
Normal Again - Buffy's consciousness jumps back and forth
between two 'realities' doesn't know which is real.
Nightmares - A child's coma causes other people's fears to
become real
[> [>
'Real Me' and 'Blood Ties' (Season 5) -- Rahael,
10:22:22 05/15/02 Wed
Those are the eps where the concept of 'reality', 'self
identity' and memory are most strongly challenged.
Buffy's previously non existant sister Dawn suddenly appears
in Sunnydale.
[>
Maybe... -- Darby, 09:30:38 05/15/02 Wed
If you're looking at the intersection of Buffyverse reality
with things more "real" here in our world, you could go with
-
Lie to Me (Real Death and Undeath)
What's My Line (Real Futures and Buffyverse
complications)
Earshot (and Real School violence)
The Freshman and Living Conditions (Real College
Adaptation)
This Year's Girl / Who Are You (Real Perceptions by Others
and how it forms personality)
The Body (Real Death - how the show changes its "reality" to
portray it)
Flooded and Life Serial (Real Life problems, Buffy-
style)
And to the nature of reality itself I would add -
Halloween and Fear Itself.
[>
Doppelgangland - continues the AR of The Wish --
Lyonors, 11:39:38 05/15/02 Wed
[>
Don't forget... -- A8, 17:17:41 05/15/02 Wed
Once More, With Feeling (everyone is aware they are in an
altered reality, but are powerless to do anything but sing
and dance along)
and Superstar (what happens when all of an already twisted
reality is further altered to revolve around the ego of a
single person).
Anya, Spike,
Willow & Warren - Wanting to be Bad (Major spoilers to
Villains! Long!) -- shadowkat, 08:40:57 05/15/02
Wed
Anya, Spike, Willow and Warren – Wanting to Be Bad
(*MAJOR Spoilers up to Villains – haven’t seen Villains or
Seeing Red? Don’t read! Quotes from Psyche Transcripts.)
“When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it
doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no
remorse... It's an easy way to live.” (Angel to Buffy in
ANGEL, Btvs Season 1)
“I'm serious. Responsible people are ... always so concerned
with ... being good all the time, that when they finally get
a taste of being bad ... they can't get enough. It's like
all (gestures) kablooey.” (Anya to Buffy in SMASHED, Btvs
Season 6)
“You need me to toe the line because you're afraid you'll go
over it, aren't you, B? You can't handle watching me living
my own way, having a blast, because it tempts you! You know
it could be you!” (Faith to Buffy in CONSEQUENCES, Btvs
Season 3)
Gee – you ever just want to be bad? You know knock in doors,
smash computers, kill that pit-bull, be the Big Bad or just
a little bad? Come on – admit it, isn’t there just a teeny
weeny part of you that wants it?
We all have it in us – the desire to be bad. The desire to
kick some nasty good-guy butt, but we reign it in. Have this
pesky little thing called a conscience that tells us, no,
no, no – mustn’t do that. Or maybe we’re just terrified of
getting caught and being punished? Or maybe it’s some deep
religious code that tells us – you do that, and you ain’t
seeing heaven, man! You going to hell! Raise your hand if
you had that type of religious up-bringing. If so, my
deepest sympathies. The desire to be “bad” is what Jung may
have called the id or pleasure principal or animus. The
shadow self. The primal urge, the animal within. Every
culture and creed has a different name for it. It’s the part
of us that seems permanently stuck in adolescence, arrested.
What reigns it in depends on where you are in your
intellectual and emotional development. If you’re in your
teens – then it’s probably your parents, teachers, school,
religion and whatever construct of reality these forces have
placed around you. If you are way past your teens, then it
is the values and beliefs that you adopted through countless
experiences. Somewhere along the line, you probably
discovered that there is more to be gained from being good,
which admittedly is the tougher path.
This is the lesson the characters of Btvs are beginning to
learn. But in order to learn it, some of them have to be
bad, it’s just their nature. They have to go the route of my
old friend Alex in A Clockwork Orange – they have to be evil
in order to figure out what it means to be good. Sometimes
you just have to take a few wrong turns in life, get dead-
ended, before you find the correct path. I know, I know –
there are a few of you out there who honestly believe that
you can’t change paths – once you get on the wrong one –
you’re stuck. Luckily, I’ve discovered this isn’t true. I
hope in time you may find it out as well. If not, my
heartfelt sympathies and you may want to leap off this
bus.
Life isn’t easy. It’s much harder to be good than evil.
There are more rules, more boundaries, and more
responsibilities. But as Anya discovered, being bad can be
empty. It’s a discovery that Alex in A Clockwork Orange’s
21st Chapter made as well. After being the Big Bad, smashing
and destroying everything in his path, Alex discovered much
to his chagrin that there was more to be gained through
creation than destruction. That playing a windup toy for the
devil was actually an empty way of living. Can Spike
discover the same thing? Pinocchio did in the classic story,
he found out that playing the bad boy left him hollow, a
toy, not real, but being good, striving to do good work –
that made him real and worthy of love. It took Pinocchio a
while to discover this, he had to go to pleasure island
first, almost become a donkey, get swallowed by a whale and
drown saving his father, Geppetto, but in the end he
obtained his reward, which was his father’s love.
Love. Is that all it takes to redeem the villain? Not
according to last night’s Angel, Benediction (Season 3 Ats).
For those of who that don’t watch Angel, Holtz is a man who
traveled centuries to revenge the deaths of his family on
Angelus. Holtz has recently returned from a hell dimension
with Angel’s son Connor, whom he kidnapped. In Benediction,
we and Angel are led to believe that Holtz was reformed by
his love for Angel’s son and has pushed aside his hatred
because of it. For a moment we are convinced, then he tells
Justine to make it look like Angelus killed him, so that
Connor/Stephen will inherit his legacy. So clearly it takes
a bit more than love to cure Holtz. What about Anya? Anya
became a vengeance demon as a result of cursing Olaf who had
scorned her by sleeping with another girl. For years she
wielded the power of the Wish and was probably, although
they don’t know it, the SG’s most formidable foe. Her
Wishverse was far worse than anything the Scooby Gang ever
faced. If Giles hadn’t smashed her amulet, Xander, Willow,
Cordelia, Buffy, Angel, and OZ would have died horribly.
Anya managed to alter an entire universe with just one wish.
Unfortunately for Anya, smashing her amulet not only
succeeded in undoing her wish, it also rendered her human.
So now, she’s had to experience all those pesky emotions
humans have. Anya believes if she were a demon again, if she
had those powers, then everything would be okay. Spike
believes the same thing about his chip. As they discuss in
the Bronze two seasons ago, in Where the Wild Things
Are:
ANYA VOICEOVER: Boy, I miss those powers.
(Cut to Anya and Spike sitting on a couch at the Bronze,
holding beers and looking morose. Spike has his arm along
the top of the couch,almost touching her.)
SPIKE: Yeah, tell me about it.
ANYA: A year and a half ago, I could have eviscerated him
with my thoughts. Now I can barely hurt his feelings.
(Sighs) Things used to be so much simpler.
SPIKE: (wistfully) You know ... you take the killing for
granted. (Anya nods nostalgically.) And then it's gone, and
you're like, "I wish I'd appreciated it more." Stopped and
smelled the corpses, you know?
ANYA: Yeah. Now everything's complicated. (Where the Wild
Things Are, Btvs Season 4)
Now, that Anya has her powers back she can be the big bad.
She can eviscerate people with her thoughts. After all – as
she tells D’Hoffryn way back in Season 3, Dopplegangerland,:
“For a thousand years I wielded the powers of The Wish. I
brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth
destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings.
I was feared and worshipped across the mortal globe.” Watch
out Xander, she thinks, here I come. But there’s a catch –
she can’t scorn Xander herself, someone else has to. So she
wanders about Sunnydale attempting to trick one of Xander’s
friends into doing it. And fails miserably. Spike has a
similar problem. Now, due to a fluke, Spike can actually
hurt Buffy, bite her, suck her dry. She’s scorned him too.
Made him feel like dirt. Told him it was never real for her.
She’s really sorry of course, but hey it was just a fling,
time to move on. So what’s keeping him back? Why can’t he
just kill her already? The chip isn’t holding him back. Her
cellular structure changed enough to make it null and void.
(See Smashed – Dead Things). Life used to be so much
easier. In Entropy, during a scene that is incredibly
similar to the one two seasons before in Where The Wild
Things are, Anya and Spike meet up at the Magic Box, and
like the previously mentioned scene, all they can think
about is how to get past the pain. Both yearn for the good
old days, the days when life was simpler, when they could
just be “bad” without remorse.
ANYA...thing about it is, none of this was my idea. I didn't
ask to be
human-
SPIKE Right! An' I didn't ask for this bloody chip in my
head-
ANYA To tell the truth, all I wanted was to use him and lose
him. I hadn't had a good tumble in a thousand years-
SPIKE Me too. The using part. I just wanted to know what I
was missing, move on. (Anya grows more pained and
melancholy. Spike follows suit.)
ANYA Then he was all bumpy in the right places and nice to
me...
SPIKE She was so raw. Never felt anything like it...
ANYA Next thing I know, I'm changing to please him. I care
if he cares.
SPIKE Right.
So instead of eviscerating their lovers, they merely engage
in some mind-numbing sex. They don’t intend for anyone to
see it. It just happens. It wasn’t meant to hurt Buffy and
Xander – it was meant to numb the pain. What’s interesting
is that here are two demons acting extraordinarily human. At
this point they are both demons. Spike still has his chip,
but he’s still a vampire and now, he can kill the slayer if
he wants to. Anya has regained her powers and is once again
an immortal vengeance demon. Yet here they are talking
about love and trying to figure out why they feel it so
deeply and why it doesn’t appear to be returned. It was so
much easier being bad. Why can’t they go back?
They both try to in Seeing Red, in different ways and with
different results. Anya tries to go back to being a
vengeance demon. Spike inadvertently attacks Buffy in her
bathroom – I don’t believe he went there intending to do it.
Nor do I believe that he intended on hurting her. I think he
got caught up in the attempt to recreate a past moment
between them and went too far, forgetting she was there.
Anya also gets caught up in the moment – she intends to
wreck vengeance – to assist a girl at a bar, instead she
acts like a human, commiserating with the girl, sharing her
own problems. When you contrast Anya and Spike’s intents and
their resulting actions – you’ll see how much these two have
changed.
ANYA I know how you feel. Maybe I can help.
BLOND How could Carl do that to me? That…
BLOND (cont'd) I wish Carl's flesh were being gnawed off by
a thousand angry --
ANYA He keeps saying it's not me, but how can I believe him?
He knew he didn't want to get married. Deep down he knew,
but he lied to me every day for months.
BLOND I wish --
ANYA He lied and lied and then lied a little more, 'cause
hey - who's gonna notice with all the other lies flying
around like monkeys. And now he thinks he can just sweep the
carnage under the rug by saying –
What’s going on here? We have a vengeance demon ignoring a
wish? Lucky Carl. Anya is at the bar in business mode. She
is planning on being the vengeance demon again. Has started
the conversation to enact vengeance. Instead she just
commiserates with the girl, ignoring her wishes. Apparently
it’s not as easy going back to being “bad” as Anya
thought.
Spike. He continues to fascinate me. If I hadn’t been
spoiled, I would have been surprised by that bathroom scene.
But if I really think about it, why? Remember what Angel
told Buffy about being a soulless creature: “When you become
a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your
soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy
way to live.” It’s Spike’s nature. He’s a soulless vampire.
He has never claimed to be anything different than what he
is, right? As Dru would say, “your’re a bad dog.” Spike is.
He has killed at least two slayers in the past and I’m sure
he’s raped a few people in his time, although we have never
seen it. His life with Dru was certainly violent and heavy
on the S & M, after all Dru had a thing for torture. Spike
wasn’t into it as much – but who’s to say he didn’t do it?
And if it’s the only thing he knows about sex – wouldn’t it
stand to reason that S & M, rape and violent sex all get a
bit muddled in that demon brain? So why doesn’t he rape
Buffy? Why doesn’t he keep attacking her after she throws
him off? Why doesn’t he kill her? Actually while I’m at it –
why doesn’t he make her like him, a vampire? Then he’d have
her, right? She’d be willing to join him in the darkness?
She’s been weakened. Her back cracked twice. He knows she’s
injured. The door is shut. There are no stakes anywhere
around. He said it himself, in Fool for Love (Season 5,
btvs)–“Lesson the first: a Slayer must always reach for her
weapon. I've already got mine.”
So why didn’t he do it? The act in the bathroom as
disturbing as it was –appeared to be more Spike’s attempt to
force his love on an unwilling party than actual rape. Sure
it was violent, it was painful, and I for one, will probably
not be able to watch it again any time soon. (Twice was
quite enough thank you. Even read the shooting script.) But
what continues to needle me about this controversial scene
is that Spike, our resident vampire, did not attempt to kill
or vamp Buffy after she succeeded in throwing him off.
Instead he leaves utterly humiliated, ashamed, furious with
himself and tormented. He is so upset that he leaves his
beloved coat behind – a trophy from the second slayer he
killed. The slayer he describes to Buffy in Fool For Love as
reminding him of her. “She had a touch of your style. She
was cunning, resourceful... oh, did I mention? Hot.” Odd
that he leaves it behind. Doesn’t even try to go back for
it. It’s not the attack that seemed out of character, it was
his reaction to the attack that did. To him and to me.
SPIKE What have I done? (then) Why didn't I do it? What has
she done to me?
(edited for length and emphasis) Why do I feel this way?
CLEM(shrugs)Love's a funny thing.
SPIKE Is that what this is?
CLEM Well, I don't know. Drinking, breaking stuff -- how's
your appetite? You been eating?
SPIKE I can feel it. Squirming inside my head.
CLEM Love?
SPIKE The chip. Little Jiminy Cricket, gnawing bits and
chunks. (Spike puts his fingers to his heads probing harshly
as if he's going to gouge the chip out with his bare hands.
Clem eyes him with concern.) Everything used to be so clear.
Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills Slayer, sucks her dry, picks
his teeth with her bones.
CLEM (queasy) Metaphorically?
SPIKE That's how it's always been. I've tasted the life of
two Slayers. But with Buffy... (hating himself) This isn't
the way it's supposed to be. It's the chip. Steel and wires
and silicon. It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a
man. I'm nothing. (Spike's self-loathing hits an all time
low. Clem gives him an encouraging pat on the shoulder.)
CLEM Hey. Come on now, Mr. Negative. You never know what's
just around the
corner. Things change. (Spike considers that, his wheels
turning.)
SPIKE They do. (a beat) If you make them. (Clem grins,
slapping him on the back happily.)
In Villains, we learn exactly how Spike wants to change. He
goes to Africa and enters a cave where a demon confronts
him. The demon tells him that he used to be a great dark
warrior and now he’s a pathetic fool. Castrated by a woman.
Spike agrees, stating he wants to be returned to the man he
was, his former state. He wants to show Buffy that he’s not
beneath her, that she isn’t better than him. I don’t have
the quote from Villains, but here’s the one from the
Shooting Script of Seeing Red which is similar to it: “She
thinks she knows me. She thinks she knows who I am. What I'm
capable of. She has no idea. I wasn't always this way. It
won't be easy, but I can be like I was. Before they
castrated me. Before...(a beat) Then she'll see who I really
am.” Spike, like Anya, desperately would like to be Bad
again. It was easier. As the demon states in Villains, he
was a dark warrior, a force to be reckoned with, the killer
of two slayers, now he’s just a pathetic shell of a monster.
Castrated. He wants to do the same thing Pinocchio wanted to
do in the classic story, smash jiminy cricket, kill the
artificial conscience. If I can’t be a man, let me be the
monster I once was. This, this is torment.
Onto the leader of the Troika, Warren, who unlike Spike, has
a soul. He is gifted with a moral compass – which he
resolutely ignores. Yet, ironically enough, Warren has done
more damage to Buffy and the Gang than Spike ever did,
without the chip. In the past year – Warren has :1) turned
Buffy invisible.(Gone) 2) stole from a bank.(Flooded) 3)
hired a demon to destroy Buffy. (Flooded) 4)got Buffy fired
(Life Serial) 5) changed her perception of reality four
times.(Life Serial, Dead Things and Normal Again) 6) framed
Buffy for murder. (Dead Things) 7) filmed her ex-lover and a
friend having sex. (Entropy) 8) attempted rape on Katrina
and killed her. (Dead Things) (A rape scene that I found far
more disturbing in retrospect than the bathroom scene, for
two reasons: no remorse on the part of the attacker and the
woman was being manipulated like a rag doll. Spike
surprisingly enough actually showed remorse, he despised
himself for feeling it – but the fact that he, a soulless
evil thing did and Warren a human did not, is very
disturbing.) 9) shot and almost killed Buffy and actually
killed Tara. (Seeing Red) I think Warren actually beat
Glory, a hell god, in the evil deed tally this year. Angelus
in Season 2 may have been the only villain that came close
to equaling Warren’s track record against our gang. And
Warren like Angelus wants to be recognized for it. In
Villains – he goes to a demon bar to brag about killing the
slayer. In his arrogance, he believes he’s a force to be
reckoned with, that they will join up with him. Instead they
merely laugh at him. This must confuse Warren, the perpetual
outsider. He couldn’t fit in at high school, the genius who
got kicked around by all the jocks. He created a robot
girlfriend to love him because he couldn’t find a date.
Warren finds life unbearably hard. He’s the geek and he’s
bright and people should revere him. They should bow down
before him. In Warren’s mind it is grossly unfair that this
hasn’t happened.
It’s interesting that of all the demonic forces that Buffy’s
faced, Warren has been the worst. Of course Warren
discovered how much easier it was to be “bad” than good.
Instead of earning money at Doublemeat Palace, he can rob a
bank. Like Faith says in Bad Girls – “take, want, have.”
This has become Warren’s creed. You don’t need to worry
about winning your ex-girlfriend’s love – when you have a
cereberal dampener to make her love you. Something that
never occurred to poor Spike who tried it the old fashioned
way. As he tells Anya in Entropy: “I was always going above
and
beyond. I saved the Scoobies how many times? And I can't
stand the lot of you.” Now, if he had a cereberal dampener –
but then that wasn’t what he wanted either. Spike wanted
love not sex like Warren did. Spike says as much in Gone,
when he tells invisible Buffy that if he can’t have all of
her, there’s no point. Warren wouldn’t have cared. Warren
enjoyed taking advantage Katrina. Just as he would have
enjoyed killing Buffy. As Willow aptly states in Villains –
killing Buffy was your big “O”. I love the scene in the
demon bar where Warren tells the demons that all it took to
kill the slayer was a gun. Again the easy way. No hand to
hand combat. No danger. Wonder why Spike never thought of
that? He could have even hired someone to do it. With a
gun, you can kill a superhero, you can kill all those idiots
who excluded you and tormented you in high school. Would
Warren have become the psychopath he was, if people hadn’t
tormented him? If he had been accepted? We’ll never know.
But it is interesting that in both Entropy and Villains –
Warren goes to bars seeking just that acceptance. In Entropy
he goes after the kids who tormented him years ago. They no
longer remember him, of course. But he does. And in
Villains, he brags to demons, possibly thinking that being
evil – they’ll appreciate it in him. Warren has yet to learn
something the demons already know – being bad tends to be
empty. Friends, family, acceptance aren’t the rewards. It’s
an endless contest of one-upmanship and destruction. That’s
all.
Willow also needs to learn this lesson. If Warren is the
human version of Spike, than Willow is the human version of
Anya. Poor Willow, she started out as the geeky nerd in high
school. No one paid any attention to her until Buffy came
along. Cordelia tormented her with comments such as “did you
just find the softer side of Sears.” Boys only saw her as
the brain. Like Warren – Willow wasn’t really appreciated.
And like Warren, Willow was always having to live down the
term “nerd”. In the episode Doomed (Season 4, Btvs) Willow
is reeling from being called a nerd and finding a dead body.
From the following scene – it’s clear that the nerd comment
bothers her more:
Cut to the gang at Giles: “It just made me feel like I was
right back in high school.”
Xander: “Dumb jock! If it wasn’t for you he still would
be.”
Willow: “I mean, I know the - Percy thing isn’t really
important, it’s the - dead guy on the bed.”
Xander: “Yeah, that’s bad, too.”
Willow: “Ooh, and something else. He, the dead guy, was-
was propped up, like whatever killed him wanted to drain the
blood out of him. So I’m thinking the whatever took a bunch
of the guy’s blood with it. And I haven’t been a nerd for a
very long time! Hello dating a guitarist, - or I -
was.”
Two years later, in Smashed and Wrecked, we see that Willow
has still not gotten past this. In Wrecked – she tells
Buffy, that before the magic she was just some girl, no one
important. And in Smashed – Amy coaxes her out of the house,
asking if she’d rather just stay home alone like she always
did in high school. Willow like Warren has sought
otherworldly means to handle the rejection she received in
high school. Warren did it through science. Willow through
the dark arts. Both are sadistic. Warren tortures Katrina
with a cereberal dampener. Willow tortures Warren with
magic. Of the two – Willow is more powerful and cruel.
Willow’s torture in Villains makes Warren look like a
pathetic boy, hardly worth worrying about. Yet is he? Isn’t
Willow’s desire to be “bad” fueled by something better than
Warren’s? After all – Willow only turned bad after Warren
killed Tara, right?
Prior to Tara’s death, Willow has practiced magic. She only
just recently gave it up, for Tara. We were lead to believe
it was a drug addiction. Xander even uses the term “fell off
the wagon” in Villains. But was it? When did Willow truly
start to bend towards the dark side? She has acquired quite
a bit of power now – but that power and confidence was built
up over time. She slowly built it up, doing dark magic.
First with that spell in Becoming – which made her feel like
a valued member of the team, then the spell in Choices where
she exclaims with pride to Angel and Buffy : “yes, I’m bad!”
and finally that spell in Something Blue, where D’Hoffryn
almost makes her a vengeance demon.
Spike, Anya, Willow and Warren all want to be bad. They all
want to go on a wild rampage. They all want to hurt someone.
Why? What caused them to start down that path? What makes
them want to do it now? Vengeance? Or was it something
simpler, something closer to home? Rejection? Rejection by
loved ones, by peers, by society? Every single one of these
characters has suffered massive amounts of rejection. Spike
and Anya were both rejected by significant others. People
they loved. A Thousand years ago Anya was scorned by Olaf. A
hundred and thirty years ago, Spike was rejected by Cecily,
who told him he was beneath her. Both turned to the demon
world for recourse. And both reaped massive amounts of
destruction on the parties that rejected them. Now hundreds
of years later, they have been rejected again. Anya was
stood up by Xander at the altar. Spike was told by Buffy
that he was beneath her and she could never trust him enough
to love him. Both want to be demons again. They want to go
down the same path they did before. It was easier. Warren
and Willow were rejected by the “popular” group. Excluded.
Called the Captains of the Nerd squad. Both joined small
groups of outsiders. Warren created the Troika. Willow
became part of the Scooby Gang. They sought recourse through
knowledge of science and the black arts. Willow initially
used her knowledge for the forces of good, while Warren used
his to become a super-villain. Now Warren has taken the
light of Willow’s life and Willow has turned to magic to
remedy it, like she has for the past five years. Of the four
characters, Willow has never been “bad”, not really. She may
have made a few mistakes here and there, but she has never
deliberately used magic to hurt people. Yet, like Warren,
Willow has never gotten past those old high school wounds
and the desire to be bad, howls inside her. The desire to
wreck vengeance on a world that refuses to be the way it is
in her head. She does not understand why Tara can’t be
brought back. Why the natural order of the universe must be
followed. Why her life must be so tough. When she has the
power to change it. Anymore than she can understand why
Buffy will kill demons but not a human psychopath. The
rules have become too hard and Willow has become tired of
being “reliable”. All that resentment she’s been keeping
bottled up since Season 1 is finally boiling to the surface.
Tara had managed to keep it in check – now, without Tara,
Willow doesn’t care. What’s the point – she thinks – of
being good, when there’s no one around to applaud me, no one
to make me feel comfortable and safe. She doesn’t recognize
Buffy and Xander – possibly even resents them a little for
not helping her kill Warren. Her resentment of Buffy may go
deeper than that – after all Buffy represents all the things
Willow couldn’t be: the cheerleader, the superhero, the
popular girl, the girl Xander wanted. Buffy never excelled
at school – Willow had to help her. Deep down inside there’s
a part of Willow that must wonder why Buffy got everything –
the caring mother, super-powers, boyfriends, and a second
chance at life. Willow is finally ready to explode and as
Rack states so succinctly in Villains, she will tear
Sunnydale apart.
Buffy has also been bad this season, but in a smaller less
ground shaking way. She slept with the villain. Not only
slept with him, used him, beat him up, and threw his
feelings for her back in his face repeatedly. Not a good
idea. Now the villain, bad boy Spike, wants to be the bad
boy he once was. He wants to make her pay. The weird thing
is, what’s holding him back? A chip? Please, it doesn’t work
on her any more. Nope, he’s holding himself back. He just
can’t understand why. Maybe he’ll figure it out in Africa.
OR maybe he’ll revert to the big bad he once was with a
twist. Maybe he will come back the Lucifer of Lucifers.
Maybe this season isn’t so much about growing up as it is
about reverting back to form?? Or maybe there’s a third
option for Spike…that is similar to Anya’s in The Wish? The
option that was Pinocchio’s and Alex’s in A Clockwork
Orange? (I don’t know…all I have is hunches.)
Buffy also has neglected her friends. She didn’t confide in
them about Spike. And she didn’t notice that Willow’s
dependence on magic had gotten way out of hand. She thinks
she took care of that. It was just an addiction. So why did
they leave those dark magic books at the Magic Box?? Why
didn’t Giles at least take them? I’m not sure Buffy ever
understood what drove Willow – how can she? Buffy’s never
been called Captain of the nerd squad. Buffy used to be
Cordelia, she understood Cordelia. She knows what it’s like
to be alone in a crowd or to be rejected because you are
weird. But she doesn’t understand the fear of being a
“geek”.
And she has neglected her duty to the community she serves.
In Gone – she tortures a social worker, costing the woman
her job. In OMWF – she tells the gang she doesn’t really
care and in fact does very little until her sister
disappears. And in As You Were, she shrugs off the demon
eggs to sleep with the villain. She hasn’t taken the Troika
seriously since they tried to turn her invisible. Barely
even tries to run after them in Gone.
Buffy has always walked the line between good and bad. It
hums inside her. That primal beast that can destroy her
friends, her world. They don’t know it exists. Spike does.
The demons do. But Xander and Willow don’t. They’ve never
seen it. Buffy saw it in Faith and she sees it in Spike –
it’s why she’s so attracted to him. Take, Want, Have – being
bad – are constant temptations to someone who has super-
strength. Someone who could hold up a bank or kill a boy
like Warren without thinking twice. But as Buffy states in
Villains – being the slayer doesn’t give her a license to
kill. Touching the bad side – taints you. She has to follow
the rules. You can’t change the natural order of the
universe. Doing so – results in chaos. Willow doesn’t
understand that. Nor did Warren. They don’t appreciate these
things. They believe I can just be bad – no serious
consequences. I have control over my world. Anya and Spike,
on the other hand, do understand these rules. They
appreciate them. As demons it was their job to cause chaos.
They may have reveled in it – but they also understood it.
They knew it changed them. They knew it had consequences.
True, being demons they felt nothing. No pain. No remorse.
It was fun being bad. What is it Angel says in episode 7,
Angel: “When you become a vampire the demon takes your body,
but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no
remorse... It's an easy way to live.” Except for one thing,
it’s empty. It does not get them what they want. It doesn’t
get you love. The rewards were short-lived. Anya at the end
of Hell’s Bells – thought why am I bothering with being
human, I can’t seem to get love either way, might as well go
back to what I know, be a force to be reckoned with again,
something powerful, instead of something domesticated. Spike
in Villains thinks – why did I bother with that bitch, let
her castrate me, I want to go back to what I was, a
remorseless powerful dark warrior, instead of a castrated
shell of a monster. Willow in the beginning of Villains
thinks – why did I give up magic? I can’t bring back Tara.
I’ve lost her. Buffy won’t kill Warren – even though he’s
worse than any of the demons she’s slain. I know – I’ll take
it up again, I’ll do what Buffy couldn’t. Even if it means
being bad. What’s the point – Tara’s gone.
Part of growing up is learning that destroying things,
taking short cuts, being bad doesn’t solve anything. It
doesn’t keep us warm at night. It doesn’t bring back loved
ones who died. The vengeance – merely leaves us hollow,
lost, like Holtz in Benediction when he forces his adopted
daughter Justine to kill him in order to set up Angel for
the crime. Or like Willow at the end of Villains, who has
grown bored of torturing Warren and merely jumps to the next
thing. Killing Warren didn’t bring back Tara. It didn’t make
her feel better. All it did was make her a little more
hollow inside. Buffy is beginning to learn this. That
working a double shift at the Doublemeat and taking care of
Dawn and forgiving Spike long enough to trust Dawn to his
care, while far more difficult, is the more rewarding path
in the long run. Hitting Spike, shagging Spike and abusing
Spike while amusing for a little while eventually lead to
more violence and shame. Being bad – as fun as it sounds
isn’t all its cracked up to be. And some of us, have to
learn it the hard way.
Thanks for reading. Feedback appreciated as always!
:- ) shadowkat
[>
Major spoilers for Benediction on Ats Angel as
well! -- shadowkat, 09:00:10 05/15/02 Wed
[>
Ooooh. (sits back to mull all that over) Great
post!(NT) -- Talia, 09:46:48 05/15/02 Wed
[>
kudos for another great post! -- ponygirl,
10:33:39 05/15/02 Wed
I realize that I am eagerly awaiting the season finale not
only so I can finally finally see what happens, but also so
that you can put it all together for us in one (or more!) of
your essays!
[> [>
More bad -- (spoilers for The Gift, SR, Villains,
others) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 14:43:19
05/15/02 Wed
Well said, Shadowkat; but isn't there another one flirting
with the bad side?
Giles.
In "The Gift," he does what Buffy can't -- finish off Ben
(hence stopping Glory.) It may be necessary to ensure the
world's safety -- but it's also murdering an injured and
helpless human being. Giles has walked with the dark
before, and that may be part of the reason he was so severe
with Willow in "Flooded".
But does he have such a firm moral point to stand on?
Doesn't Willow know he killed Ben -- and so what's the
gigantic difference between that act and finishing off
Warren? (Of course, one victim threatened the world -- the
other just killed the only real love of Willow's life.)
Giles was the leader/mentor/father (or at least rakish
uncle) for the Scooby Gang. What lesson did he leave with
them in "The Gift?"
I could never
trust you, the DT dream (spoilers) -- ramses 2,
09:20:12 05/15/02 Wed
This morning I had an epiphany, wait I lost it, No I have it
again, Buffy's issues of trust are completely self
contained. In SR she's says she could never love Spike
because she could never trust Spike. But is this true?
She has relied on Spike for seasons now to watch her mother,
sister, back. If something comes up the gang turns to him
either for muscle or research. He has saved their lives or
attempted to on numerous occasions. He has risked death
rather than hurt Dawn or Buffy. And Buffy acknowledges this,
it is Spike she entrusts to take care of her sister when she
dies. Sounds like trust to me. And I won't even bring up the
handcuffs okay?
So let's look at the dream in DT. It starts with rather
sweet comforting sex, then it appears that Buffy is the
agressor, handcuffing Spike. And then we have Katrina, the
innocent, being handcuffed by Buffy. Buffy asks, do you
trust me, then it appears to change, Katrina is Spike, then
A sleeping(innocent)Spike is staked, changing into Katrina.
What does this mean? Buffy doesn't trust herself. She is
afraid of who she is, the slayer. Can she be trusted to not
hurt innocents? To not hurt the ones she loves?
All season long we've had Spike challenging Buffy, trying to
figure out just who she is. This makes Buffy very
uncomfortable. She doesn't want to know, she's afraid to
know.
She begs Tara to tell me I came back wrong, what she's
really begging for is the knowledge that the slayer is not
wrong. Evil. Dark. Capable of turning on those she should
protect. Buffy's carried alot of guilt around since we've
met her. She not a normal girl, yet, family, friends, school
all expect her to be. She's full of anger, we've seen that
this season. She feels like a martyr.
Throw into this everything the council has ever told her
about right and wrong, good and evil. Her feelings towards
certain vamps, well they're wrong. No questions asked. pile
on the shame.
And now we have Spike, who asks things like, is that the
kinda demon you are love, I know what kind of girl you are,
you came back wrong, you're an animal. He's not letting this
go. Spike senses a familiarity here, he's senses it from the
start. But he's conflicted too. Spike needs Buffy to stay
above him, non demon. But still, he's gotta push.
Buffy starts the season relying on Spike. Confiding in him
to the exclusion of the others. But when the relations
start, she pulls away from him emotionally. She refuses to
talk. Have any kind of conversation with him.
Not because she doesn't trust him. But because she's afraid
of her. The slayer. The one who always ends up alone. Buffy
is terrified that spike will leave her. Abandon her. Like
all the others. She doesn't want to feel the pain.(TR,talk
with Giles)The watcher tells her two things, love, forgive
and you only think you know. They are intwined. If Buffy
could find out about the Slayer, find out the truth of who
and what she is, then she could love. And forgive.
In SR, she is scared, terrified, she begs Spike to no, don't
hurt me. I think this should be examined with Spike's you
only hurt the ones you love. Buffy is terrified that if she
agrees that she loves him, agrees that they have the kind of
love that burns,( The fire she wants so badly OMWF) then he
will leave her.
OAFA brought us a Spike who forgave Buffy. We couldn't
understand that. We called him a wimp. Next episode we see
Buffy bringing Dawn to him and missing him. We will call her
crazy.
ME calls it building a relationship
[>
Nicely expressed, Ramses. -- Dyna, 10:03:28
05/15/02 Wed
[>
Could explain why... -- Dariel, 10:26:36
05/15/02 Wed
..I had the odd feeling that Buffy was relieved in
Villains. Spike finally exploded, finally hurt her back.
When you abuse someone and they keep taking it, it's got to
make you feel guilty. Now, Buffy doesn't have to feel guilty
anymore.
[>
love and trust and confrontation in SR -- cj,
12:53:04 05/15/02 Wed
i've been combining some thoughts in my head and have a
similar thought to the SR scene. if you accept that the
buffy this season is different, but mainly different because
she can't feel, can't love. she can't connect with her
friends. she's a fighter w/o the heart, w/o the fun, w/o
the love. the love for her family, her friends, spike, but
mainly even the love for life has left her. if you accept
that spike's role is often one of the truth. or as someone
pointed out pragmatatism. then...
in SR truth grabs buffy and shakes her into admiting she
does love. or she can love if she lets herself. and buffy
pushes truth away and admits she doesn't love because she
doesn't trust.
and her i don't mean trusts spike. as ramses 2 is saying, i
think it's about trusting herself, trusting life. NA was
about acceptance. and i think we've seen a change in buffy
since NA. but acceptance is not the same as whole hearted
participation. her trust issues stem back as far as hank,
s2 with angelus, s3 faith, and on and on. and i'm sure the
whole dieing resurrection hasn't made trust any easier.
JMHO.
cj
[> [>
Re: love and trust and confrontation in SR --
Caroline, 13:52:48 05/15/02 Wed
Great posts Ramses 2, Dariel and cj. I agree that Buffy
seemed relieved in Villains. It reminded me of OAFA. Buffy
had just majorly beaten Spike up yet he still crashes the
birthday party, tries to seduce her etc. No apology or
explanation about the fading black eye etc. He just went
back to the normal stuff. Buffy's reaction to Dawn wanting
to go to Spike in Villains was similar. Just a sigh and an
alright. When she walks into the crypt, she calls out to him
like any other time she's crashed his crypt and asked for
his help. Same old, same old. And she wasn't exactly happy
to learn that he's gone. I think there's more to develop in
this relationship but I'm not sure whether there'll be time
enough to do it in the last two episodes of this season.
[> [> [>
I have a real problem with her doing that -- Spike
Lover, 17:36:38 05/15/02 Wed
I guess it is a complete lack of respect for Spike? Maybe
not.
When you tell someone who wants a relationship with you that
there is no way, that you don't even like them or value
them... When you tell someone you have been sleeping with
that it is over and to get out of your life... When you tell
someone who is having a very, very hard time accepting that
you really don't/can't be involved with them anymore that
you don't love them, that you couldn't love them, and you
can't and shouldn't trust them...
You can't just go back the next day to 'business as usual'
and not confuse them. If Spike had been there, I believe he
(and Dawn too) would have believed that she was 'over the
assault' thing and that things were going to return to hot
and heavy or hot and cold. She may not be 'saying' that she
wanted him back in her life, but by her actions she is
inviting him in again. I am so relieved that Spike was
gone. I could only see a person reacting in 2 ways. One
would be to believe as above- Buffy has forgiven me and come
back to me because she does love me. Or he could realize
that Buffy was playing with his feelings, 'leading him on',
and he could lash out against her through Dawn.
But Buffy can't see what she is doing or what she did. And
Xander could only see potential harm for Dawn. He does not
know the true nature of the S/B relationship. If he had, he
would have been able to more articulately tell her "Hell NO!
Dawn can go to the neighbor's." And what exactly does it
say about Buffy that she would entrust her sister to a demon
she knows next to nothing about (except that he is a friend
of Spike's.) If she thinks that poorly of Spike, why would
she leave her sister with him? (I think highly of both Clem
and Spike.)
[> [>
I agree- bathroom scene could have had symbolic
level -- Spike Lover, 17:13:50 05/15/02 Wed
I said that a few days ago, that that scene in the bathroom,
(the strangest of all places to be attacked) could have been
a symbolic choice, to mean, perhaps, Buffy's most private
retreat, her most private thoughts, and perhaps this fight
she had was symbolically suppose to depict the innerturmoil
she has been secretly enduring. Her tendency is to love
Spike who she does trust w/ her friends and family and her
own life, who she enjoys sexually, who she can confide in,
who obviously loves her. But she rejects that love because
she is wholeheartedly afraid to love him. So if Spike is
actually symbolic of her love for him, the whole scene makes
a little more sense(to me). She cries and begs for mercy,
not from a vampire she can easily whip, but from her own
overpowering feelngs. She ends up 'wrestling' with her
feelings of love. She kicks those feelings of love away from
her, telling them that she could never 'trust' her love.
The truth is that the last person she loved (Angel) betrayed
her twice. She has not really loved anyone else sense.
Well, that is my take on it anyway. ...And I know itis not
the popular- 'Spike is evil' interpretation.
[> [> [>
I think the further we come from the scene --
ramses 2, 17:35:07 05/15/02 Wed
The more we question just how Buffy viewed the scene. It
reminds me of OAFA. This season must be viewed
metaphorically. Buffy is estranged from he emotions.
Cave paintings,
african statues in the bushes, is Tara coming
back?(spoilers) -- ramses 2, 10:21:26 05/15/02
Wed
I have long felt that Spike and Tara's fates are
intertwined. I was hoping that Spike would ask for a soul,
be put into the ether of souls and there meet William. As he
is about to meld he hears Willow's anguished cries, he turns
from william and his chance at Buffy to help. He finds Tara
and tries to con the demon, 'you didn't say whose soul.'
Tara is returned to life but Spike is frozen, neither dead
or alive. Buffy must save him.
Why do I think this? Apart from Spike needing something big
to redeem himself and for him to discover that even soulless
he's gotten to a good place? Well the crypt song.(Out of my
mind, out of this world. Just want you to save me) Tara
being the only one to know about Spike.(godess mother) the
cave paintings depicting what is happening in Sunnydale and
the african statue right outside the door after the coroners
leave(Thank you undeadpatient!)
We also have the african masks in TR,(always over Randy or
Giles). Am I being delusional here?
[>
DANGER! SPOILER in title above! -- Robert,
10:48:52 05/15/02 Wed
[> [>
Oh no, I was too excited about posting! Mostly wild
speculation -- ramses 2, 10:55:09 05/15/02 Wed
Please erase!
[>
Re: Cave paintings, african statues in the bushes, is
Tara coming back?(spoilers) -- Cern,
11:46:14 05/15/02 Wed
i had a weird thought when i saw Spike in Africa-isnt that
where the First Slayer was from? Combine that with the
paintings on the wall, and maybe the Cave Demon has
something to do with the Slayers?
[> [>
I had the same thought -- vampire hunter D,
12:44:25 05/15/02 Wed
I'll have to go back and look at the cave paintings, I don't
remember exactly what was portrayed
High Praise for
"Villians" (SPOILERS for Villians!!) -- Spike
Lover, 10:26:26 05/15/02 Wed
Ok, I LOVED this ep and have to share. Maybe it was that
M.N. wrote it?
I did experience some agitation. I was annoyed that the
paramedics showed up and went to Buffy only. WHo called
them? X? Willow? The neighbors? Where were the cops? Why
didn't they ask if anyone else was hurt? Why didn't anyone
go in the house? When Willow heard the siren, why didn't
she scream for help? Why didn't the neighbors show up? Why
didn't Xander go scream for Willow to help Buffy? ***MOst
of all, why was it 30 minutes into the show before X and B
knew that Tara had been shot? But perhaps that was
intentional to show how disconnected and self-centered our
heroes are.?
I liked the change in Willow. In Bargaining, she humbly and
respectfully invokes Osiris on Buffy's behalf. In Villians,
she demands his presence and shouts orders. Very cool.
Enjoyed the coloring of Willow's hair to pitch black.
Liked the semetry of the characters. Willow was the only
one who was changed and affected. Xander was still Bitter.
Buffy was still ineffectual and wishy-washy. Specifically,
I REALLY LIKED when W shows up at the hospital and states
"It is time to deal with Warren." Yes, it was time. It was
way past time. Of course, they could have simply started
with a phone call to the police (weeks ago).
Buffy is like- 'why?' no real harm done, just because I
suspect he killed Katrina and he has shot at everyone.
Since I didn't die, (this time) it does not really matter.
He is just a child (like me.) ***I would pay to see
Sipowitz from NYPD blue give Buffy a talk on her apathy to
use/work with the police.***
It is not until Willow finally tells them that Tara (who NO
ONE HAS EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT) is dead, that Buffy is shocked
and concerned. (Maybe she felt flattered that Willow was
being vengence girl on her behalf?)
Buffy seems to be slow at letting go of her
childlike/innocent mentality that 'it must have been an
accident or Warren and the trio are not a threat to society
because they are our age or just human or whatever, or this
can't be true'. (I remember her lame response when Anya
finds the stolen jewelry in Dawn's room, and Buffy says
"Dawn, tell them they are wrong! That this is a mistake!"
Give me a break.)
They seemed to stress Buffy's ineffectualness when the
ambulance people were taking Tara's body away. I swear they
had her hair look exactly the way Joyce wore hers, and you
know how ineffectual Joyce was.
Buffy gave that speech about humans being regulated by
society and police, but it was just lip service. None of
the sg utilize the police. In fact, you could say that
Buffy is partially to blame for Tara's shooting because if
she had gone to the cops earlier with her suspicions about
Warren killing K, they might have had him locked up or on
the run so that he would have had more to worry about than
robbing amusement parks or killing Buffy.
Then you have Buffy doing the strangest thing (for a
potential rape victim or even date-rape victim). Agreeing
that her sister could stay w/ Spike. I object on a couple
of levels although I TOTALLY believe that Buffy is so wishy-
washy that she would completely do that. (And if Spike had
been there, it would have completely given him a mixed
message -again -that there was still hope or trust, or
feelings or whatever-) Because you do not trust your family
(or friends) around people you do not trust. It makes me
wonder Once again how she really sees that bathroom
incident. Xander saw it pretty much cut and dry.
Xander still bitter- about Spike, and boy, he had the nasty
comment for Anya when she revealed that she had gone back to
her original profession.
The guy who plays Warren is an amazing actor! The
expressions on his face in his final scene with Willow was
So believable. Once again the writers were FOILing
(Comparing or showing both the similarities and differences)
Spike/Warren. Loved the "BORED NOW" statement!! Loved the
ripping of the skin off. Rock on!!
I loved the Clem scene. Maybe I will change my name to
"ILIKECLEM". Spike Lover is probably easier.
From watching the previews for next week, I wonder if "Grow
Up" means that in leaving childhood, you have to leave your
childhood friendships behind as you all choose a path to
walk. And maybe Buffy and X need to understand that you
can't make your friends choose what you think is best for
them (parents either). (even if you think they are going to
ruin their life by their actions.) You can only do what
Tara did - which is separate yourself from what or whom you
find to be intolerable.
Also, I am excited that they may finally deal with Willow's
jealousy of Buffy- that Buffy was the slayer and Willow was
only Slayer support. I am excited to see the fallout. By
the way, where is the social worker?
I apologize for the length.
[>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- Traveler, 10:46:32 05/15/02 Wed
1) Buffy was probably planning to find Warren, beat him up,
and turn him over to the police. She simply objected to
Willow killing him.
2) Buffy didn't trust Spike. She trusted his chip. There's a
world of difference.
[> [>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- JustAsking, 11:23:18 05/15/02 Wed
2) Buffy didn't trust Spike. She trusted his chip.
There's a world of difference.
Sorry, I don't buy this at all. The chip only prevents
Spike from directly hurting humans. It doesn't make him
"good". When he found out he could pop Buffy, the first
thing he did was go out and look for a kill.
There's nothing in the chip that wouldn't allow Spike to
passively watch Warren (or any other evil agent) kidnap
Dawn, which (at least in theory) is what Buffy is worried
about. There may be something in *Spike*, which is, his
loyalty and feelings for Buffy, but there's nothing about
the *chip* that makes him a protector.
But only the audience is seeing Spike sympathetically right
now. Buffy's last words and thoughts concerning Spike were
out of anger and betrayal. The bathroom scene - in my mind
- was to dramatically end any thought of Spuffiness, to all
parties. Seeking him out the next day is lazy writing.
Just saying.
[> [> [>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- clg0107, 11:40:40 05/15/02 Wed
>>The bathroom scene - in my mind - was to dramatically end
any thought of Spuffiness, to all parties. Seeking him out
>>the next day is lazy writing.
Unless the writers want to show her as still a bit
conflicted about her thoughts and feelings. And, they want
him to still be a factor in their lives. Frankly, I'm not
all that surprised, given everything that's gone on over the
last 2-3 seasons, that when the chips are really down and
they need someone, they still go to good old reliable Spike,
who must be hanging in his crypt waiting to be
needed....
~clg0107
[> [> [>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- DickBD, 11:41:38 05/15/02 Wed
Lazy writing? I think there is some purpose there to show
that Spike is still considered a friend. He does have a
history with the group now. And Dawn has always been fond
of him. I think it is good writing to have a seemingly evil
character have some good points. It is something of a
metaphor for real life. Besides, I happen to be in the camp
that thinks the Spike character is one of the most
interesting of them all. I am also with the group that
believes that Spike got mixed messages from Buffy; hence,
the attempted "rape" is somewhat forgivable.
[> [> [>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- Traveler, 13:42:15 05/15/02 Wed
"There may be something in *Spike*, which is, his loyalty
and feelings for Buffy, but there's nothing about the *chip*
that makes him a protector. "
No, but just because we know better doesn't mean that Buffy
does. She sees the chip in the same way Spike does, as a
sort of artificial conscience.
[> [> [> [>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- Kevin, 17:03:37 05/15/02 Wed
I just realized a parallel between Buffy and Spike this
season:
Buffy blames her actions and feelings(or lack of them)- her
'darkness' this season on coming back 'wrong', that it's not
really her darkness. She wants to have come back wrong so
she doesn't have to own her feelings and see herself as a
complete whole - dark and light together.
Spike is on the other side blaming his feelings and
conscience (his humanity) on the chip, that it's not really
him, that without the chip he would still be a monster -
pure evil.
I diagree with the people who suggested that Spike blamed
his attack on Buffy on the chip. What he blames on the
chip, when he realized that Buffy was hurt and that he had
crossed the line, is that he cared. As a monster, he
shouldn't care. He shouldn't feel remorse. In the first
season Angel explains to Buffy that not having a soul means
not having conscience and that it is a very simple way to
live, to not care about others. As a vampire, Spike
shouldn't care, but he does. That's the conflict that's
driving him crazy.
He blames the chip for giving him feelings, but the chip has
nothing to do with it...It can only restrain his physical
actions. It shouldn't change the way he feels, how he wants
to behave. The chip can not create feelings, or conscience,
or soul...They have to arise from Spike himself. The same
as Buffy's resurrection has nothing to do with her feelings.
Both of them are looking to be pure - One light and the
other dark. They're both struggling with the reality of
grey.
Interesting....
[> [> [> [> [>
Don't think it was the caring part that was the
issue -- Spike Lover, 17:22:40 05/15/02 Wed
I liked your comparison.
I rewatched that scene. Some people thought he said "Why
did I do it? Why DIDN'T I do it?"
I watched it carefully, but what I heard was "Why did I do
it? What didn't I do?" Very different. I guess we will
have to watch it in subtitles to see what he said.
Anyway, I think he blames his whole situation on the chip,
not particularly his feelings of remorse. I think he feels
as he has stated before, that he should be killing the
enemy, not sleeping with it. He feels it is basically wrong
of him to give up his old life (and what he knows vampires
do)-
Another way to look at it is to berate yourself for having
an inner-racial relationship. It is wrong to love something
other than your own kind. It brings heartache.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
The exact quote. -- Traveler, 10:24:49 05/16/02
Thu
I paid careful attention to this line when I rewatched the
episode, so I'm pretty confident I have it right.
"What have I done?" (beat)
"Why didn't I do it?"
The emphasis he puts on the words leads you to believe he is
feeling horrible guilt and doesn't understand why.
[>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- West, 11:58:18 05/15/02 Wed
You made a lot of good points, but I think you're being a
bit critical about the whole 'ignorance of Tara' thing.
Xander didn't know that the last shot went through the
window, and since I don't believe he even went inside when
he showed up, he didn't even know Will and Tara were home.
His first priority must have been Buffy and getting her to
safety (clear thinking isn't always a big thing under stress
like that).
I doubt it was Willow who called for help. Well, not the
police or ambulance anyways, she was busily invoking the
spirit of Osiris. She wasn't screaming for help because she
knew how to get her own, and if that didn't work, then
nothing else would. Then she snapped and went all vengance-
y. Again, not big with the clear thinking. Since the whole
Buffy scene did happen in the backyard, I find it plausible
that no one would have found a very silent Willow and Tara
upstairs.
As for the police, this could be said for pretty much any
situation Buffy has dealt with, but it kinda leads to a
major plot problem... If they called the police each time,
Buffy's job is useless. However, they've been riding the
idea that the police have no power against mystical problems
(which the Troika dabbled in) and would end up getting
killed, which would be on Buffy's conscience. This is her
duty, yadda yadda yadda.
I love what you said about Buffy looking like Joyce. I
noticed that too, but I didn't realize the whole 'weakness'
association. Also loved Clem. And what was Xander's biting
reply to Anya? The damn phone rang when that scene came
on.
Cheers!
[> [>
Buffy looking like Joyce, Dawn being like Buffy ? -
- Etrangere, 12:38:10 05/15/02 Wed
Okay I gonna answer about that because that's like the only
thing praise-worthy I found in that episode (hum)
Dawn finding the body of Tara was thus put in the same
position than Buffy when he found the body of her mother.
And with that, Buffy has never been as Joyce-like in her
good sense and dealing with stuff.
[> [>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- clg0107, 12:46:57 05/15/02 Wed
>>I love what you said about Buffy looking like Joyce.
There have been a number of eerie moments of this over the
last two seasons, even before Joyce died. I like it. It's
like she's still there, in a way.
~clg0107
[> [>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- Spike Lover, 16:44:28 05/15/02 Wed
Thank you for your kind comments about my comments.
Admittedly if the police were more involved, there might be
less for Buffy to do- but maybe not. Remember, the first
season of Angel had him working w/ the cops also (or just
one.)
Well, let me see here if I can paraphrase it close enough.
They opened the scene w/ X helping Anya walk, asking her if
she could talk yet. She could. He told her that Tara was
dead. She already knew. She said that W came in a sucked
the dark arts books dry. He said he needed a locator spell.
She said she could find W easily because she could feel her
need/thirst for vengence. X asks, 'feel her need for
vengence? Is that a risidual from being a vengence
demon?'
'No, it is not risidual' A replies. 'Well, when did THAT
happen?'
She snaps, 'When do you think'.
Buffy comes in and you get a recap of the above. B is also
'shocked' that A has returned to her old profession (as if
she would not have already suspected that 2 eps ago) but
anyway.
Xander says something like, 'So you can feel her need- and
don't you go to her? Isn't that what You do?' (I guess it
was that way X said it that made it so hostile.)
A replies, 'Yes, normally, but in this case no'
'Because she wants to do it herself-' Buffy finishes.
[>
A few points (to everyone) -- vampire hunter D,
13:23:30 05/15/02 Wed
1) While I agree that Buffy should have called to police on
Warren and Andrew, the problem is that you can't make
accusations without proof. Buffy had suspicions, and
speculations, but no proof. ANd without that, the police
are helpless at best. In fact, they probably would have
been apathetic and even annoyed at her for wasting their
time (she's just throwing around wild theories when they
know damn well Katrina committed suicide). So, the police
were not an option, ever.
2)I liked how Buffy was willing to take Dawn to Spike.
First, it shows that Spike is not all bad, no matter what he
did. And to JustAsking, she wasn't taking Dawn there to
protect her, but so that Dawn wouldn't be left alone after
such trauma (she already spent most of the day alone with
the body of her dead friend, so she had to be left with
somebody). Besides, saying no might have meant telling Dawn
about what happened in the bathroom. ANd in case no one
noticed, Buffy shields Dawn from everything and ANything
that might hurt her.
ANd in any case, there is no way Spike could ever hurt Dawn.
No matter what.
[> [>
Re: A few points (to everyone) -- JBone,
21:13:17 05/15/02 Wed
I thought that Buffy looked very relieved when she found
Clem instead of Spike. And Dawn proved that she needed
protection in the way she reacted to finding Tara's
body.
[> [>
Snyder had it right: Sunnydale police are deeply
stupid -- Cleanthes,
21:14:09 05/15/02 Wed
[>
Buffy in "Villains" -- Kerri, 16:50:00
05/15/02 Wed
Well, I read this episode very differently in a few areas.
First of all: Buffy.
My take on her was not as immature and ineffectual but as
resolute, strong, and mature.
They seemed to stress Buffy's ineffectualness when the
ambulance people were taking Tara's body away. I swear they
had her hair look exactly the way Joyce wore hers, and you
know how ineffectual Joyce was.
I don't think that this scene showed Buffy as
ineffectual. Yes, she was overwhelmed, and let Xander
handel the coronor, but she was trying to comfort Dawn.
After the police and cornor left Buffy took charge. She
stood resolute on beliefs and took the lead in the effort to
help Willow.
I'd suggest that the reason Buffy resembled Joyce was to
point out how mature Buffy is. How far she has come in the
past few episdes since she spoke to Joyce in the assylum-
verse.
Buffy seems to be slow at letting go of her
childlike/innocent mentality that 'it must have been an
accident or Warren and the trio are not a threat to society
because they are our age or just human or whatever, or this
can't be true'.
I see the childlike mentality as being Willow'. Children
take revenge. If another child hits them they hit back. It
is only a special, mature, individual who is able to not tak
revenge. Buffy wasn't saying that Warren wasn't a threat
(on the contrary she seemd to treat them as more of a threat
thn and of the other scoobies-in fact, willow ignored them
as a problm entirely in SR, perhaps adding to the guilt she
feels in Tara's death.), instead she felt that it wasn't her
place to take another human life.
If we think of BtVS in terms of Buffy's journey than now is
the time that she must encorporate Tara's lessons into
herself. Perhaps, we saw some of that last night.
Just a few more random comments:
I am so happy that Buffy and Dawn are close again. I loe
their relationsip. It's so sweet, and just further's the
comparisio of Buffy to Joyce as Buffy becomes more of a
mother to Dawn.
I'm not sure how Ifeel about Buffy leaving Dawn with Spike.
Yes, he did try to rape her, but Buffy is right Spike would
never hurt Dawn. Maybe, she blames herself in part for what
Spike did. But, I think that Buffy's forgiveness and
understanding that Spike is not all evil is impotant.
Afterall, that is what originally changed Spike.
[> [>
Re: I agree very much with what you've said --
Artemis, 19:58:47 05/15/02 Wed
She seemed very mature. More worldly. But rather than
remind me of Joyce, I swear my first thoughts were she
reminds me of Giles. Thinking the problem through vs blindly
going forward. Trying to think rationally. Portraying a
woman who has seen so much and is now starting to understand
it . I really liked her in this scene . Though I always
liked Buffy . The journey has been fascinating .
I hope Buffy doesn't feel Blame for what Spike did . And
I know that it's just semantics . But it seems that Maybe
she understands that She and Spike together are responsible
for the explosion which was there relationship. She seems to
matured enough to understand that relationships are
complicated . We're probably saying the same thing.
[> [> [>
Re: I agree very much with what you've said --
JBone, 21:15:43 05/15/02 Wed
I agree about Buffy sounding like Giles, it's like the
writers were making a mission statement through Buffy.
[>
Re: a small point on Buffy/Dawn (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- Valhalla, 22:15:17 05/15/02 Wed
I thought part of the reason Buffy agreed to take Dawn to
Spike was because she just didn't have time (or the
emotional energy) to get into a big thing with Dawn. Also,
Dawn's request came at the end of a line of real negatives -
Dawn finds Tara dead, Buffy saying no - Dawn don't say
Warren should die, you dont' really feel that Warren should
die, we can't let Willow kill Warren, we can't control the
universe, no you can't come with me to help save Willow. It
was probably easier to say yes to Dawn than rack up another
'no' in that situation.
Buffy wouldn't have given in if she didn't think Dawn would
be ok with Spike (as others have said more cogently than I),
but she was eager to save Willow, and she didn't feel she
had a lot of choices.
[>
Re: High Praise for "Villians" (SPOILERS for
Villians!!) -- Malandanza, 23:47:17 05/15/02 Wed
"Then you have Buffy doing the strangest thing (for a
potential rape victim or even date-rape victim). Agreeing
that her sister could stay w/ Spike. I object on a couple of
levels although I TOTALLY believe that Buffy is so wishy-
washy that she would completely do that. (And if Spike had
been there, it would have completely given him a mixed
message -again -that there was still hope or trust, or
feelings or whatever-) Because you do not trust your family
(or friends) around people you do not trust. It makes me
wonder Once again how she really sees that bathroom
incident. Xander saw it pretty much cut and dry."
I am essentially in agreement about Buffy's visit to Spike's
crypt. To even think of leaving her sister with a sexual
predator is appalling (I don't care how good of pals Spike
and Dawn are -- get a few drinks into Spike and he's capable
of anything). The only logical conclusion is that Buffy
didn't see Spike as an attempted rapist when she took Dawn
to Spike's crypt. I do think that when Buffy kicked Spike
into the wall she thought of him as a rapist -- she has
since changed her mind.
When Buffy first realized that Spike was obsessed with her,
she blamed herself. When Spike chained her up and threaten
to kill her, she was defiant at the time ("The only chance
you had with me was when I was unconscious") but almost
immediately turned to Spike to protect Joyce and Dawn from
Glory -- déjà vu, anyone? I see the bathroom scene as being
very in character for Buffy -- she blamed herself for
sending mixed signals and mistreating poor "William." Her
martyr complex strikes again.
Additionally, Buffy seems to regard attempted crimes as
trivial. Mere lapses of judgment, hardly worth
consideration. Just look at Buffy's attitude towards
Willow's vengeance: before Buffy knew about Tara's death,
she was puzzled as to why Willow would be so upset about an
attempt on her life that had very nearly succeeded. Spike's
attempted rape would fall into the same category.
Which is not to say that I view the bathroom scene as
ambiguous -- I'm pretty much with Xander on this one. But
Clem is right -- Buffy has issues,
"Also, I am excited that they may finally deal with
Willow's jealousy of Buffy- that Buffy was the slayer and
Willow was only Slayer support. I am excited to see the
fallout. "
I have also thought there was some rivalry (entirely on
Willow's part) between Willow and Buffy -- especially since
the resurrection. The show down has great potential, but
I'm afraid they'll ruin it by having Willow win, but saving
her at the last minute by an appeal to her humanity. I want
to see the Slayer that the vampires in the bar fear and
respect knock the hubris right out of Willow.
"Make me,
skin job" (spoilers, SR and Villains) -- Traveler,
10:39:11 05/15/02 Wed
You know, it occured to me that we've been seeing a lot of
"layers" being removed from people recently.
Jonathan
He wore a monster suite, but it didn't fit him well.
Underneath, it was obvious that he was still just a normal
guy. This symbolizes his relationship and eventual betrayal
of the Troika.
Warren
As Willow stalked him, Warren gradually lost his toys until
he was left with only his clothes, leaving him powerless and
desperate. Then, even his skin was stripped away, reminding
us that, for all his evil, he was still a human being
underneath it all.
Willow and Spike
Both were stripped of color and revealed desires and fears
that had been hiding under the surface all along. Others
have written much more eloquent posts on these two.
Anya
She was stripped of power and purpose. As a vengeance demon
she was forced to offer her services to Willow, but was
turned down. When Anya tried to stop her from reading the
black books, Willow paralyzed her, the effects of which
didn't wear off for some time. Anya goes with the gang to
help them stop Willow from taking vengence.
Dawn
She has lost her sense of security and a bit of her
innocence. Also, she feels like she is losing Spike.
Xander
Not sure about him. Hopefully we are seeing him start to
lose some of his black and white views about good and
evil.
Of all the scooby gang, only Buffy seems to have maintained
her sense of self and purpose. Having already seen the
darkness in herself, perhaps she is beginning to come to
terms with it?
[>
really liked what you wrote about Jonathan and Warren
=) -- neaux, 10:44:22 05/15/02 Wed
[>
Nice insight on Warren, in particular. -- yez,
11:12:25 05/15/02 Wed
It must be significant that his skin is removed, as you
note. Also, we have Willow emulating the "dusting" that
happens to vampires -- she incinerates (?) the body. So
she's trying to follow the same Slayer pattern with a human?
Why? Is that just the way things are done, as with all the
vampire slayage they've done over the years? You kill them
and then you don't have to look at what you've done? Or is
she intentionally destroying evidence -- showing that she
still realizes that what she's doing is wrong and could get
her in trouble?
Not so sure I agree with you about Buffy. Something about
her little speech and her actions bothered me, but I'm still
trying to pinpoint what exactly it was.
yez
[> [>
Re: Nice insight on Warren, in particular. --
clg0107, 11:32:46 05/15/02 Wed
>>You kill them and then you don't have to look at what
you've done? Or is she intentionally destroying evidence --
>>showing that she still realizes that what she's doing is
wrong and could get her in trouble?
I saw it as her almost erasing his existence. There's
nothing left of him when she's done.
~clg0107
[> [> [>
Makes sense. -- yez, 11:42:00 05/15/02 Wed
Might explain her going after the other two, too? Getting
rid of everything associated with Warren?
yez
[> [>
Re: Nice insight on Warren, in particular. --
pr10n, 11:55:48 05/15/02 Wed
I was watching "Innocence" last night and I noticed that the
Judge's burning FX look similar to what Willow did to
Warren. ["Can we incinerate people with more creative
burnings, please?"]
Willow has decided to make decisions about people's fates,
like a judge. She as much said so to Buffy, and Dawn agreed.
"Good," was the pronouncement from Dawn and Xander about
Willow killing Warren, but Buffy brought Xander back
around.
I really like your idea about "dusting" though, since the
preview shows Willow in slayeresque mode.
[> [>
About Buffy -- alcibiades, 11:56:25 05/15/02
Wed
"about Buffy. Something about her little speech and her
actions bothered me, but I'm still trying to pinpoint
what
exactly it was."
They lacked Buffy's fire, her anger fueling her fire which
has always aided her. Buffy seemed at a distance to me.
She still isn't totally back yet. She's not involved the
way she has been in other years.
[> [> [>
Yeah -- it just seemed flat. But I don't know if it's
Buffy or SMG. -- yez, 12:07:42 05/15/02 Wed
[> [> [>
Re: About Buffy -- LittleBit, 13:54:46 05/15/02
Wed
Given that Buffy had just been shot, and then revived by
Willow's magic to learn that a good friend, and one of the
very few she trusted with her secrets, had been killed by
the same person who shot her, then discovered that her best
friend had given herself over to whatever dark powers she
could use to wreak vengeance for Tara, I don't think it's
too surprising that Buffy may show a less than fiery passion
for all the reasons they can't tear Warren limb from limb.
She had to have been feeling much the same way as Dawn and
Xander but was forcing herself to be reasonable and
recognize that it isn't acceptable.
Xander gives as his reason for supporting Willow's actions
the fact that he's had the blood of people he cares about on
his hands, and therefore wants retribution. Buffy's
blood. Buffy's third death (yes, she flatlined). And
yet Buffy believes enough in the principles she's always
held to as the Slayer to stick to them, however
unenthusiatically. Buffy's concern is for Willow, to stop
her from destroying herself. She knows what it can mean when
someone starts down the dark paths not caring about
returning. She went through it with Faith.
I read her somewhat flat argument as reminding
herself as well as Dawn and Xander, what was
allowable in the large picture. And also, she was already
thinking forward to what may be required to prevent Willow
from self-destructing
[> [> [> [>
New Slayer? -- yez, 14:02:39 05/15/02 Wed
That's right, she did flatline -- unless that was an effect
of Willow's electrical disturbing entrances.
So... new Slayer?
[> [> [> [> [>
Nope, Only 1 Slayer Per slayer exchange so sayeth
Joss -- Dochawk, 14:15:40 05/15/02 Wed
But I wonder if all this is going to start Dawn onto the
potential of the key. I always wonder "she is made of me";
if slayer traits are passed by blood, then Dawn has slayer
hidden inside of her.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Oh, thanks. Maybe, but just can't see MT working
that. -- yez, 14:41:03 05/15/02 Wed
Also, wouldn't we have seen some of her slayer strength,
etc., by now? She's done some clobbering of things, and she
did stake that vamp (using his own body weight, though), but
I don't know.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: New Slayer? -- tam, 15:16:30 05/15/02
Wed
no new slayer. the line is with faith now.
[> [> [>
I believe Buffy's still emotionally detached... --
Ixchel, 16:57:40 05/15/02 Wed
She's trying very hard, but I agree, alcibiades, she's still
not completely back.
Maybe others would disagree with me, but I believe SMG's has
been and is portraying depression excellently. I think this
must be difficult to do for an actor.
The flatness of Buffy's behavior and interactions with
everyone has displayed (to me) the emotional flatness of
depression. Looking at a loved one (Dawn) and knowing
you're supposed to feel _something_, but there isn't
anything inside. That profound hollowness.
The more frequent (progressively since OMWF) signs of
emotion surrounded by the flatness just highlight the depth
of her previous lack of emotion. I think Flooded first
illustrated this (the training room scene with Willow).
JMHO, of course.
Ixchel
[> [> [> [>
Whether or not SMG's masterfully playing
depression... -- yez, 20:39:24 05/15/02 Wed
... I'm just not sure of the merits of having the lead
character of an action/adventure/fantasy/drama series be
depressed for an entire season. I mean, there's a reason
that in real life, people avoid other people who are
depressed, negative, etc. -- it's just very hard being
around them.
A movie about a depressed person, even a book, OK. But week
after week of Buffy: The Depressed Vampire Slayer... just
got to be a little much and kind of killed the "appointment
TV" thing, at least for me.
But as I said before, with the way memory compresses things,
it may turn out to be worth more than it was at the
time.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
I think I understand what you mean... -- Ixchel,
22:38:38 05/15/02 Wed
It's been somewhat depressing for me, to be honest. Or at
least wearying?
I do really like this season (the emotions, risks taken,
complexities, ideas expressed), but it's been difficult to
watch at times.
Good point about how time can change your perception of a
season's merit.
Ixchel
[>
Interesting, but I think Buffy still hasn't been
stripped yet *Spoilers* Villains -- Anne, 11:59:53
05/15/02 Wed
Your "stripping down" analysis is interesting to me because,
as far as I can see, Buffy is the only one who has kept her
armour on and that's her problem. The only scene in
which she stripped it off was in her "confession" to Tara.
But as I have argued at length elsewhere, this was clearly a
bad confession -- she admitted to using someone sexually,
but not to abusing someone verbally, emotionally, and
physically; not to brutally beating someone who loved her
into a bloody pulp. The "Dead Things" confession was a
beginning, but never followed up on. She has never really
had to humble herself, to open herself up, or to be
completely honest with herself or anyone else. And as I
result I disagree strongly that she still has a sense of
"self" and "purpose".
The AYW breakup was another example of Buffy still with a
full suit of armour on. Yes, she needed to break up with
Spike. But instead of acknowledging her own monstrousness
in the relationship, she started out by emphasizing his
("that's just you") and went on with a forbearing, saintly,
and let's face it, holier-than-thou demeanor to say that she
had to stop because she had been using him ... and it was
killing her. Not that it was bad because it had
been hurting him; no, it's still the Great I Am.
I like your analysis of people being stripped down. But I
still don't see that Buffy has gotten there. I will say
this, though: the girl did seem to be picking up a bit in
"Villains," mostly because she was showing the first signs
of warmth I've seen in her for donkey's years. Still, I
think she's got a long way to go. Maybe in the finale --
the way they've started to pace things, I think it's
possible.
[> [>
Re: Interesting, but I think Buffy still hasn't been
stripped yet *Spoilers* Villains -- Ronia, 13:00:56
05/15/02 Wed
I agree wholeheartedly, maybe that is what has been bugging
me this whole time...saint Buffy. It must be infuriating
for everyone around her (including me) to try and approach
her with THEIR feelings, only to be shot down in a monotone,
sensible, oh just see reason already sort of way. It is
detached and selfish, and I am having a hard time
empathizing. It is a bit sociopathic even. Almost as
though other people don't really exist on their own merrit,
only in how they affect her. Hoping to see her snap out of
it. I admit to being a little sad about the recent turn of
events, some part of me hoped that Willow/Warren would be
the next ship. Before you chase me off with boos and rotten
fruit...hear me out. They seem to me like the male and
female version of the same person, and in "Gone" when Willow
is looking through their stuff, she
looks...well...impressed. This is right up her alley, these
are her people. I'm not necessarily implying a romantic
relationship, but at least the death scene should have been
more personall/intimate, all the face/dialogue scenes were
shot from a distance. Oh well, all my plans blown up in my
face...what else would I expect from ME?
[> [> [>
female/male of the same person -- Dochawk,
15:03:21 05/15/02 Wed
I have a totally different reaction to Buffy then you do, i
don't find her saint anything, but these are
feelings/reactions, not script based so I don't think these
are worth discussin, just noting that different people are
affected differently.
I find your second comment most interesting, because I have
felt since Superstar that Jonathan and Willow were the same
person, seperated only because of the love and friendship
Willow received from buffy and Xander and the lack of
anything like it that Jonathan ever got. Both were nerdy,
lonely really smart high school kids, but Jonathan never
found his way out, so he wanted to kill himself in
Superstar. Without the SG couldn't you see Willow having
done the same thing? And then Jonathan uses magic to make
himself popular, to make his pain go away in Superstar. And
this season he uses his magical skills to feel part of a
group, except that he really doesn't belong witht he Troika,
because he may have been isolated, but he never hated (which
is why he was going to kill himself in that tower, not other
students). Even if Willow manages to survive this descent
into darkness, she will never be able to retain her magical
abilities and remain a Scoobie. I speculate that Jonathan
will be joining them, finding a good place for his magic
abilities.
[> [> [> [>
Jonathan has been a full-on supporting character since
S1 -- pr10n, 16:17:17 05/15/02 Wed
Your speculation is that between now and S7 he will be
"promoted"?
That would be great. I have always liked his mousiness, and
his red-shirted, throw-away aspects. Seeing him grow into a
full character would be interesting.
[> [> [> [>
Re: female/male of the same person -- Ronia,
16:59:51 05/15/02 Wed
I think Jonathan tried to kill himself in earshot, make
himself popular in superstar, but otherwise, I definately
see your point. Here's hoping to Jonathan as a full cast
member s7.
[> [> [> [>
Re: female/male of the same person --
AgnosticSorcerer, 20:27:56 05/15/02 Wed
"Even if Willow manages to survive this descent into
darkness, she will never be able to retain her magical
abilities and remain a Scoobie. I speculate that Jonathan
will be joining them, finding a good place for his magic
abilities."
-- I absolutely MUST disagree here. There is no way in sam
hill that Willow will ever be replaced, especially by the
likes of Jonathan. Joss Whedon, himself, has declared that
in Season 7, Willow will become a Scooby once more and
although she will still be "magickally inclined", she will
not be a "magick junkie".
[> [>
Re: Interesting, but I think Buffy still hasn't been
stripped yet *Spoilers* Villains -- alcibiades,
13:26:08 05/15/02 Wed
She was still tacitly lying in Villains - she didn't let
Xander know why Spike can hurt her and how that made it
different from what he could do to Dawn -- not that I
believe Spike would hurt Dawn.
I think it shows Buffy still has anxiety about what she came
back as -- she may not fully believe what Tara told her. And
indeed it may not be the whole truth.
[> [>
One nitpick -- Traveler, 13:29:51 05/15/02
Wed
"But instead of acknowledging her own monstrousness in
the relationship, she started out by emphasizing his
("that's just you") and went on with a forbearing, saintly,
and let's face it, holier-than-thou demeanor to say that she
had to stop because she had been using him ... and it was
killing her."
She said that last part in response to Spike, when he said
"Not complaining here." She was telling him that she wasn't
ok with what was going on, even if he was.
[> [> [>
Re: One nitpick -- Anne, 15:51:42 05/15/02
Wed
Okay, I'm going to note here something that is on the
subjective side but: to me, if you listen to how SMG read
that line, she read it very specifically as though
she continued on with the sentence just as though he hadn't
interrupted her -- I had no impression at all that what he
said changed the way Buffy finished that sentence.
But as I say, that's a bit of a subjective call, and if you
heard it differently, I couldn't prove who's right one way
or another.
[>
Stripped of attachments... -- Caroline, 15:25:22
05/15/02 Wed
I really like the theme you have going of everyone being
stripped down. Part of the death/transformation/rebirth
theme going on this season (otherwise known as maturity) if
the element of taking away all the things that one is
attached to that are no longer useful to who you really are
as a person. The pain that we feel comes from the fact that
we identify so hard with the things that life appears to be
taking away from us. This is very Buddhist of ME. Buddhism
talks about the 84,000 (if I remember correctly) attractions
and repulsions that we must neutralize before we reach
enlightenment. It also relates to many ancient and mythical
stories. The Egyptians have the story of the Phoenix, the
mythical bird that is burnt and consumed in fire, stripping
away everything yet rising again, whole and renewed. Inanna
is killed by her sister Ereshkigal in the underworld yet is
revived and released to once again rule the heavens.
Persephone is 'raped' by Hades and becomes queen of the
underworld, and finally learns the mysteries and secrets of
life, death, birth and womanhood.
In each case, an old, worn-out part of the identity must be
let go to allow something new to take it's place. It is a
dark, mysterious process, like puberty, like growing into
adulthood. In puberty we experience it in physical terms, in
adulthood in psychological and emotional terms. But the
message is the same - the old is stripped away so that
something new and better takes it place.
But I agree with Anne about Buffy - she is still not being
entirely honest with herself - very good analysis Anne.
heroes --
shari, 11:49:13 05/15/02 Wed
This is just an invitation to comment. I was reading a book
this morning about moral exemplars in Afghan society and one
paragraph in particular struck me:
'what this etymology signifies to me is something that
scholars of greek myths have long realised: as praiseworthy
as heroes might be, they are also dangerous. Noble and
memorable, indeed, they also stand outside the normal orbit
of human interactiuon and are never entirely fir for
ordinary society. In Afghanistan, no less than in other
cultures at other times, heroes are an ambivalent blessin.
On the one hand, they embody through their deeds the
axiomatic truths by which societies define themselves.On the
other, they strain the limits of what societies can tolerate
if they are to survive. The hero rarely knows his place; he
creates his own space at the expense of others and in doing
so almost invariably trasgresses the limits and agreements
around which the normal commerce of dailylife takes
shape'(Edwards; 1996;21)
a)I started thinking about the scooby gang and also Joyce.
any comments?
b)I was also thinking about whether buffy was a hero and if
so what kind? Macintyre argues that in homeric texts the
narration fo heroic acts are as integral to the nature of
social action as the deeds themselves. either buffy isn't
that kind of hero for the most part unrecognised, or the
OMWF song bnuffy sings epitomises Joss as the narrator, can
the buffy saga be read like the illiad( not saying in
quality). or is buffy part of the ordinary hero saga? fairly
confused thoughts i admit but suggest away. most of this has
been written abut indirectly before but nothing like
reviving an old chesnut
[>
Re: heroes -- Rahael, 12:13:01 05/15/02 Wed
Thanks for the quote - very interesting. I'll think and
respond later. Though I think you need to expand on your
points and do a kind of thing, such as: how do you think
Buffy herself is axiomatic? And what does McIntyre's
argument actually mean in jargon free English?
I think it kind of ties in with the New Statesman article I
quote, about the need to transcend ordinary life, and evil
and good having the same common root. What do you think?
Ps, you know, you're typing is completely atrocious!!!!!
LOL
Oh, and an unofficial, warm welcome to the board!
[> [>
Sisters ! Re: heroes -- shari, 13:27:48 05/15/02
Wed
· Macintyre. Right to explain Macintyre jargon free would
assume that I am similarly unencumbered….erm. I’ll try my
best. Macintyre in ‘After virtue’ looks at Homeric society
as a ‘heroic society’ . He essentially ( and please someone
correct me if I’m wrong) argues that narrative structures,
storytelling, is integrally linked to moral ideas. Telling
the story of heroism is as integral to being a hero as
doing heroic acts. The story telling follows a structure
axiomatic of that society’s ideas of the virtues. Not only
does it reflect moral mores but also is part of the process
of creating them. . So Macintyre says 'so in heroic society
to understand courage as a virtue is not just to understand
how it may be exhibited in character but also what place it
can have in a certain kind of enacted story'. To do is also
to be told. To be told is also to do.
The book I was reading on Afghanistan took three different
types of moral exemplars- the Islamic saint, the king and a
tribal khan, and show that they have different types of
moral authority and also different narrative forms. If the
show used the different characters as axiomatic of different
values, as many people have commented they do Xander heart
etc, than would the way the story is told change
radically?
That is, if we are living in a heroic society I don't think
that buffyverse is a Homeric one. That’s my best attempt to
render Macintyre jargon free Rah! but as you know it isn’t
just my typing that is atrocious!
That said maybe Buffy as ‘hero’ if we see her as such than
perhaps she embodies a certain idea of heroism. Is it the
ordinary hero? Is it the white hat? Is it …? I don’t know to
tell you the truth
It might be easier if we look at the idea of moral
exemplars. They don't just reflect a given society's moral
universe they also create and construct some of it through
their 'acts'. Buffy however has not necessarily chosen to be
a hero, her acts she sees as born out of necessity as a
reflection of who she is. While angel to a certain extent
does embark on his heroism because of who he is, a souled
vampire, he is hoping by his acts to become a hero. Buffy
doesn’t have that choice she will be the slayer till she
dies, she just is. She obviously does heroic acts but
because she also can't not. Running away to LA she still in
the end has to accept what she is. On the other hand I might
be building a very specious argument.
I think the buffyverse is axiomatic. Joss takes central
concerns in American lives and questions, interrogates and
further extends them. I remember writing an essay about the
home in Euro-American society and using buffy, as vampires
have to be invited into the home, home is seen as sacred as
inviolate a haven in a heartless world. However that has
been turned upside down in this season. Instead it is home
which is unpredictable and threatening, there are demons in
the wall contrasted to previously. When we were dealing with
vampires the invitation was stressed constantly, with humans
the lines change, all domains can be affected.
I agree entirely with your post today. There is no separate
sphere of evil and good. We are generally ambiguous beings
with equal ability to commit good and bad. I think that
point is also true , to bring it back to heroes, heroism
doesn’t necessarily mean good. When people take it upon
themselves to commit acts that others cannot than they lose
also the ability to distinguish or live by everyday rules.
They trade in an heroism as a currency rather than good or
bad( not that I’m admitting that there is such a clear line
in daily life).
To return to the book about Afghanistan Edwards discusses az
man who bent on revenge gets trapped further and further
until he cannot escape the consequences or the dreadful
consequences of enacting the logic of revenge. He reflects
on stories and says ‘ the sum of my experience is this:
simplistic stories devoid of morally ambiguous characters
and narrative complexity wear quickly thin…the worst of all
stories are those that seek to be charming, but a close
second are those stories that rework classic fairytales
gutting them of their contradictions, their violence, their
perverse strangeness….what matters most in this story are
precisely in moments of excess and transgression, for it is
in these moments that we come to see the story’s horrible
fascination and glimpse the troubling contradictions that
rest at the core’( ibid; 50)
Sorry rah I’ve just read over this and realised I haven’t
answered anything really just quoted and rambled. But
hopefully potentially comment evoking.
[> [> [>
Re: Sisters ! Re: heroes -- alcibiades, 13:52:43
05/15/02 Wed
In light of this, it is interesting that all of the main
characters in the Buffyverse are outsiders. They do all
have heroic aspects -- including Spike.
Xander however earlier this year, in LS, tried to keep his
work separate from his Buffy-involved existence. Didn't
want those two realms mixing.
Sounds like an interesting book.
[> [> [> [>
Re sisters! Re heroes! -- Shari, 13:59:54
05/15/02 Wed
David Edwards- 'heroes of the age. Moral faultlines on the
Afghan frontier' worth a looksee. Thanks for your comments-
going to contemplate them over dinner and get back to
you.
[> [> [> [> [>
Chollavendaam! -- Rahael, 14:32:48 05/15/02
Wed
Special effects
in "Villains" (spoilers) -- Rob, 11:54:33
05/15/02 Wed
No, this isn't the deepest post ever, but, frankly,
"Villains" has still left me so stunned, and, like "Seeing
Red," shellshocked, that I find it very hard to write
anything analytical about it, because my emotions are still
too strong. I will say, though, that this was not just a
passing flirtation--I am deeply in love with Season Six!
And, while, somewhere mid-season, I had some slight worries
that I wouldn't get that sweeping, epic-y feeling I'm used
to getting from "Buffy," I can now rest assured. These past
few episodes have left me complete breathless, and blown-
away. I wish the season finale would air right away...and I
wish it would take longer to get there, so that the summer
break doesn't have to start!
Anyway, focus, Rob, focus...
I had to just post on how incredible the effects for this
episode were, most particularly when Willow literally dipped
her hands into the Dark Arts books and sucked them dry. All
of the ancient texts's words visually streaming through her
body was, I think, one of the best visual effects we've ever
seen on the show. It was dark, disturbing, and beautiful.
That CGI-dark-eyed-Willow who looked up a second later was a
little less convincing (I thought it looked a little too
Lara-Croftish), but the words on Willow's arms were true
magic, as was the map of Sunnydale, in Tara's blood.
And of course, the skin-strip of Warren, which was so dark,
so disturbing, and so perfect. When I saw last week's promo,
with Buffy saying, "What have you done?" I assumed Willow
had done something horrific to Warren, worse than just kill
him. Her tone of voice showed true disgust at whatever
actions Willow had done...Actually, make that horror. Buffy
sounded absolutely horrifed at what her best friend had
done, and so I assumed it would be something
horrifying...but I never could have imagined anything that
gruesome. It was visually brilliant in just how repulsive it
was...It really nailed the truth about Willow home. She is
far worse than we've ever seen her before.
From her ominous, "One down..." line to the fact that next
week's first episode is entitled, "Two to Go," I have one
thing to say regarding Jonathan and Andrew: Gulp!
Rob
[>
It is always a joy to read your postings! --
Robert, 11:59:56 05/15/02 Wed
[> [>
Wow, thank you. That's a very nice compliment. :o)
-- Rob, 17:08:01 05/15/02 Wed
[>
Re: Special "3D" effects in trailer for
"2 to go" (spoilers) -- pr10n, 12:07:08
05/15/02 Wed
Did you notice the red/blue 3D look around Willow during the
trailer? I have misplaced my red/blue glasses but if anybody
has some, I'd like to know if there's an effect to be found
there.
[>
Now here's a post I can get behind! Thanks! (NT) --
MaeveRigan, 12:36:21 05/15/02 Wed
[>
The greatest 'ship of all! Rob/Season 6!! --
ponygirl, 14:11:15 05/15/02 Wed
[> [>
ROFLMAO!!! -- Rob, 17:10:52 05/15/02 Wed
Since all the ships combine two names (Buffy + Spike =
Spuffy, for example) what should mine be?
Rob + Season Six =
**********Robix?
**********Sirob?
Regardless, you are all invited to the wedding. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [>
Rox? -- d'Herblay, 04:32:53 05/16/02 Thu
[> [> [> [>
LOL...I like that one. :o) -- Rob, 13:20:24
05/16/02 Thu
[> [> [>
ROFLMAO times 2! And I thought I'd never be a shipper!
Rox 4-eva!!! -- yuri, 00:14:24 05/17/02 Fri
[> [> [>
or how about rovi (as in the roman numeral)? --
anom, 21:55:25 05/18/02 Sat
[> [>
A ship I'm proud to support. Rob helps me realize what
I love about S6. -- Ixchel, 17:23:37 05/15/02 Wed
[>
Re: Special effects in "Villains"
(spoilers) -- dubdub, 16:20:34 05/15/02 Wed
I have to say, Rob, it disturbs me how satisfied I felt when
Willow skinned Warren. I'm trying to attribute it to the
fact that he was a homicidal misogynist, and stupid enough
to continue to talk down to her while completely at her
mercy.
;o)
[> [>
I agree, dubdub! -- Rob, 17:06:36 05/15/02
Wed
The moment he said to Katrina, "Cause you deserved it,
bitch!" I was very, very ready for him to be very, very dead
in a very, very painful way"...and I was not disappointed.
Perhaps a little disturbed at the whole bloodthirst thingy
but secretly very happy. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [>
Re: I agree, dubdub! and metaphors in Villains!
(spoilers for Villain) -- shadowkat, 20:00:23
05/15/02 Wed
You were not alone. Must say I love DarkWillow. Her
whole
scene with Warren was well worth the ride. Although - the
skin ripping off was quite gross...but hey, just me.
I particularly love her short to the point statements.
1. Busy
2. Talk over
3. Bored Now
Alyson Hannigan is a truly wonderful actress.
Yes - Rob, I am still enjoying Season 6 along with you.
Even though Villains did seem a little off for me plotwise,
it was amazing on a metaphorical level. And I'm a metaphor
gal, so who cares about annoying little plot points anyway -
it's a fantasy show, let's employ suspension of disbelief.
(That was serious not sarcastic by the way.)
Metaphors:
1. The text crawling up her arms - almost as if it was
invading her like a bunch of parasites. She says at the end:
that's better.
2. Stripped of color - just like Spike is now stripped of
all color. Willow has black eyes and hair and white skin
and
black clothes, Spike has white hair, dark eyes and black -
it looks like a cat suit, tight fitting. Makes it clear to
me that these two characters are being paralleled big
time.
3. Stripping of Warren's skin revealing he's human and
weak
underneath. Then becomes nothing but dust - just like a
vampire that Buffy makes go poof. How many times has
Willow
asked - why can't we just make him go poof?
4. Tara's forgotten body...symbolizing how Willow is so
consumed with vengeance that she has literally forgotten
Tara who she left in a pile on her bedroom floor for Dawn to
find. (The flash of light when Dawn finds her which reminded
me big time of Be Back Before Dawn in Restless which Tara
says from the same upstairs area and is bathed in light and
a flash.) Dawn's huddled body in the corner grieveing as
Buffy and Xander drift half in shock in room.
5. The blood on Xander's hands - "I've had the blood of
friends on my hands all day" - his culpability for ignoring
the Troika - blaming Spike and others and not going after
them as a serious threat? Also his culpability in aiding
Willow in bringing back Buffy and encouraging her use of
magic in OAFA and Bargaining?
6. Blood still staining Buffy's white shirt and Blood on
Willow's - Blood on White - stain on innocence - taking of
innocence. Which also goes back to Dawn and flash of white
light on seeing Tara - her surrogate Mom dead
7. Who does Dawn want to stay with? Surrogate Dad -
Spike.
Interesting. Tara has been acting as surrogate mom since
Bargaining. spike as surrogate Dad since Checkpoint.
Buffy
protects Dawn from negative information on Spike - ie. Dawn
can't lose both surrogate parents in one day?
8. Spike loses Buffy - goes into heart of Darkness, cave
drawings have images of hearts torn out and ripped off skin,
look a bit like Willow's torture of Warren. The demon is
hollow, glowly green eyed and makes me think of a big spider
mixed with a snake. Blood-sucking and sex?
9.Willow loses Tara and howls at Osiris - looks like a
long
whirlwind of pain. Rack describes her of living off Fury -
Fury goes back to Xander's line in Bargaining Part I - get
out of my head Willow - I know I can answer you, but I saw
the Fury and that ended really bad. Also David Fury?
Willow is in white shirt - stained with blood, innocence
gone - she goes to all black.
10. The scene with the bus on the road - made me think
of
Spiral btw. Warren's a robot - goes back to Buffbot and
Glory's line - did anyone else know the slayer was a
robot?
It distracts Willow but doesn't defeat her. Just as
Buffbot
didn't defeat the demons. Also robot - hollow man - Warren
is hollow, a man who ignores his soul. Making him
soulless
and hollow in Willow's perspective.
11. The woods - we lose our innocence - we go into the
woods. Like in Stephen Sondheim's Into the Woods - remember
Joss Whedon is a huge Sondheim fan. Into the woods is a
musical based on Grimms fairy tales in it a bunch of
characters get lost in the woods and confront their
innermost fears and darkness until it is no longer clear who
is bad or who is good. Giants can be good guys, Witchs kind
and Princes cruel. Into the Woods also is a metaphor for
adult hood and sexual growth. Loss of Innocence.
Willow and the gang run through the woods after raising
Buffy from the dead. They hide from demons in the woods.
Here Willow chases Warren into the woods. And destroys him
there - tainting herself forever. She has gone into the
woods and will emerge another person. As will her friends
who followed her. Parallels Spike's journey into the cave -
he'll leave the cave altered as well.
Okay done now - it's late and must go to bed. I really
should do an essay on this sometime, assuming someone
doesn't beat me to it. ;-)
[> [> [> [>
The metaphors in "Villains" worked great ,
but... -- cjl, 21:20:09 05/15/02 Wed
Mixed feelings about this ep.
'kat, you know I love your take on the metaphorical
underpinnings of Buffy. Even though Marti isn't famous for
seeing into the deeper levels, I think she handled this
aspect of the story brilliantly. But on a surface, "this is
what's happening now" level of the story, there were plot
holes large enough to drive a Greyhound through.
Another Season 6 case of the production team/story editors
not quite able to juggle three balls at the same time: the
storyline qua storyline, the psychological aspect, and the
metaphorical/allegorical aspect.
You know my theory about Marti and overdetermined plot
points. More for the archive:
1) Marti had to have Dawn discover Tara's body, and stay
with it as a way of leaving childhood/releasing the
surrogate mother. But after a wild shooting spree in broad
daylight, the police department should be crawling all over
the house, looking for stray bullets, picking up clues.
This is a level of Sunnydale PD incompetence even I can't
believe, and it drags down the story. And, as Ozmandayus
said on the BC&S board, are we really supposed to believe
Dawn wouldn't call the cops back to pick up the body?
2) BlackMagic!Willow pursues Warren into the forest, a
perfect metaphor for Willow's descent into total darkness.
But why is Warren bolting into the forest? Why doesn't he
book a flight to Aruba with an aura-shielding spell from
Rack? (Hell, if Spike can go to Africa, why can't Warren go
to the Carribean?) Maybe if the script SPECIFICALLY stated
that Warren was going to make his stand in Sunnydale
(because he knew Willow would find him anywhere in the
world) it might have been more believable. Otherwise...
3) Buffy and Xander run frantically around town after Willow
for the entire episode...to no effect whatsoever. Yes, I
get it: they're not SUPPOSED to stop Willow, and their "one-
step-behind-edness" is part of the point. But as DRAMA, as
events taking place up on the screen, this doesn't add a lot
of punch to the episode. In fact, if Alyson and Adam Busch
hadn't been at the top of their game, this episode might
have been a huge disappointment.
Sigh. Let's hope they pull it all together for the
finale.
[> [> [> [> [>
Dawn in shock... -- Caroline, 13:17:01 05/18/02
Sat
I think anyone who has experienced a significant loss and
goes into shock could quite possibly fail to call the police
at a time like that. When you're in shock you tend to leave
behind rational judgement and good decision-making skills
and you're just totally inside your own feelings and
experience that doing anything except being slightly
catatonic is difficult. And afterwards, the memory loss or
jumbled up memories can be difficult to deal with. From my
own experience, one thing I know that ME does very well is
the human response to a human death.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: The metaphors in "Villains" worked great
, but... -- anom, 23:04:20 05/18/02 Sat
"But after a wild shooting spree in broad daylight, the
police department should be crawling all over the house,
looking for stray bullets, picking up clues. This is a
level of Sunnydale PD incompetence even I can't believe, and
it drags down the story."
I suppose they could have talked to Xander off camera at the
hospital, but still, the hole in the window was visible from
the street, & you'd think someone would have checked things
out inside the house. And who did call 911? Xander? Does he
have a cell phone? Or did he run inside the house to make
the call (& not even hear Willow's cries & the thunderings
of a god in response to them, or notice the amazing
gathering of energies upstairs), leaving Buffy bleeding in
the yard? Maybe neighbors heard the shots & called.
"And, as Ozmandayus said on the BC&S board, are we really
supposed to believe Dawn wouldn't call the cops back to pick
up the body?"
Caroline has a point below about Dawn's being in shock;
besides, if she had called the cops, they'd have taken
Tara's body away, making it feel all the more real that she
was gone...& leaving Dawn alone in the house where it had
happened. I can certainly understand her not being ready for
that.
But what I can't understand is that nobody tried to reach
Dawn after the shootings. OK, of course Buffy couldn't,
Willow wasn't about to, & Xander's priority was staying
w/Buffy. But why didn't he call Dawn's school from the
hospital as soon as Buffy was taken into surgery, or try to
find out where else she might be? The writers could have
included a line to the effect that he'd tried & couldn't
locate her. And even though they needed to stop Willow,
wouldn't Buffy's 1st thought after Willow healed her be to
get in touch w/Dawn & let her know what happened?
[> [> [> [>
Re: I agree, dubdub! and metaphors in Villains!
(spoilers for Villain) -- fresne, 10:07:25 05/16/02
Thu
"Metaphors:
1. The text crawling up her arms - almost as if it was
invading her like a bunch of parasites. She says at the end:
that's better."
Ah, yes, Villains was so full of chocolaty linked up
metaphorical goodness that I'm still boggling.
I was particularly intrigued by some of the repetitions. And
apologies if someone has already mentioned any or all of
theses. Sometimes, our verboseness defeats efficient
reading.
Skin:
1. Clem calls attention to his loose skin in reference to
junk food.
2. The demons at the bar are very clearly demony. Vamp
face, demon face, rough skin. In-human.
3. Warren calls attention to Wrack's facial scarring,
which highlights in a classical villain sort of way that
Wrack has big time mojo. Look evil scars. Warren wants to
buy mojo, but not skin care advice.
4. Willow drawing the text up her skin. While the ink on
the page was black. The words themselves were red, as if
they were written in blood. I particularly liked the
pentagram which crawled up Willow's chest. Representing
perhaps the eyes which have been bypasses as Willow sucks
knowledge up through her hands. It was also interesting that
Willow's skin merged with the pages of the book to allow her
suck up knowledge.
5. The robot Warran's skin peeling back a bit from it's
eye (Window to the soul?) to reveal it's nature. It is not
Warren.
6. The images in the cave. Lots of peeling skin and
blood.
7. The skin of Warren's mouth growing together to silence
him.
8. Willow peeling back Warren's shirt to push the bullet
in.
9. And of course, Willow peeling back Warren's skin to
reveal the human beneath. Not a demon or a robot, a human.
This moment was an abrupt shock and made me think very much
of one of my favorite horror movies, Hellraiser I (okay and
Hellraiser II). The vulnerability of skinlessness. The
opposite of power.
Blood:
1. Tara's blood. And yes, like the fawn, it is the blood
of the innocent. Note: when Willow goes to become Black
Magic Willow woman, she changes clothes. In vengeance, she
no longer wears Tara's blood.
2. However, seeking Warren, the spell using Tara's blood
on Willow's shirt. Up until that point, I believed that the
spells had changed Willow's clothes. But they didn't. Like
in the Body, where Willow was so very concerned about the
appropriate clothes to wear, she changed her clothes to suit
the occasion (i.e., to painfully kill someone.) These were
then clothes in her wardrobe (unless she made them out of
darkness). Not black, but deepest darkest denim, with silver
points of light for buttons. Not sure what to make of
it.
3. Buffy's blood. Welling from her body. On her clothes
for much of the episode. On Xander's hands and clothes.
4. Again with the words on Willow's skin. Written in
blood. Representing dark magic. The knowledge that she's
been flirting with for so very long.
5. Willow is running on pure fury. Just want to pull a bit
of mythology. The Furies. The Kindly ones. Vengeful forces
from the underworld. Sometimes depicted in art as
bathed/splattered with blood.
6. The intriguing shift from stashing Dawn with Spike
(blood in his fridge) to stashing her with Clem (lemonade in
the fridge).
7. Again with the cave paintings and the blood.
8. Warren, who didn't bleed much from the bullet (not the
bullet that shot and killed Tara, but the one that shot
Buffy), but did bleed quite a bit later.
Light
1. Spike's lighter flickering and going out in the cave.
Spike's been paired with fire all season. Should I be
nervous that his light is going out? Whatever. It's the
lighter that he used to torch a vamp in the first episode of
the season. What he uses to light his movie shorthand, "hey,
look I'm evil" cigarettes. The lighter that Buffy (I'm
surprised Dawn never tried to swipe it) hid in her
pocket.
2. Willow referring to Tara as a light in the world, which
has now gone out. This parallels Tara calling Willow a light
in OMWF.
3. Willow's change into Goth Willow. It's interesting that
her hair isn't so much black as really dark brown. Her eyes
don't actually go totally black. Instead of all black eyes,
her eyes are still human, with occasional black and red
flashes of power.
Language
Not really a metaphor, just interesting.
1. Spike refers to Buffy as a Bitch 3 times. Warren uses
the same language to talk about women. On one hand this
reinforces the Spike Warren parallels, and yet, I can't help
but contrast Intervention and Villains. Two men with robo-
toys. Both get tied up by a woman. Completely different
motivations and choices from there.
2. This was a bit more ephemeral, but there was also some
interesting parallels between Spike and Willow. Back again
to last season 5, Spike's complete understanding of Willow
going knify on Glory's wide and lopsided posterior. In
Villains, we have both of them trying to change what's
wrong. But whereas, Willow is external, changing the world;
Spike is internal, trying to change himself. Willow goes
into the woods. Spike goes first to Africa and then the
heart of darkness a cave.
3. Bored Now. As so many have commented, this was an
utterly chilling line and a real complement to the viewer.
Part of the lines power relies on a back knowledge of
VampWillow, of the discussions of the human you are
informing the vampire you become. Up until that moment,
Willow was filled with vengeful anger. Sending a bullet into
Warren, right or wrong, was understandable. But the moment
before she skinned Warren, incinerated him, disappeared in a
flash of fire herself, she embraced the dark side. Glad I'm
not ME, so I don't have to figure out how to get her
back.
[> [> [> [> [>
Great points all around! -- ponygirl, 11:21:50
05/16/02 Thu
Great observations fresne! Each one could spawn several
threads. I am wondering about the significance of Spike's
lighter going out in the cave, ominous and also a sign of
him going completely into the unknown, as though there were
other images on the walls that he could not yet see. I'm
hoping someone far more well-read than me can look at all of
the Plato-y allusions with the cave and the shadows on the
walls.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
I'm so odd, I was thinking why does he need the lighter
to see? -- Ixchel, 18:30:23 05/16/02 Thu
I was remembering Angel's statement in the dark cafeteria in
Choices that he could see fine. However, I immediately
decided Spike would need the light to see _colors_ (cats can
see in very dim light, but I think a certain amount of
illumination is necessary to see colors). This may not be
scientifically accurate, but it pacified me and stopped my
mind from going off on a weird tangent.
Very interesting reference to Plato, ponygirl. Perhaps in
keeping with the questioning of reality this season?
Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: I'm so odd, I was thinking why does he need the
lighter to see? -- ponygirl, 06:47:58 05/17/02
Fri
I like your explanation for the lighter! Science comes to
the rescue of the plot!
I did a bit of poking around on the Plato's allegory of the
cave, and it's verrrrry interesting when applied to Spike.
The idea of people living all their lives in the darkness,
mistaking reality for the shadows on the cave walls, and an
individual being able to escape and go into the light of
day. Hmmm, and double hmm.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: I'm so odd, I was thinking why does he need the
lighter to see? -- Arethusa, 09:05:07 05/17/02
Fri
Here's a creepy thought: television watchers sit, often in
the dark, mistaking the shadows on the screen for reality.
Only a brave individual would reject the "reality" fed to
the audience, turn on the lights, and find out what is truly
real. What rough beast will skitter into the shadows,
frightened by the light of reality?
Gotta stop watching "Twilight Zone."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
I think we're on to something - more on Plato's cave
(long) -- ponygirl, 11:28:49 05/17/02 Fri
I thought the following is very applicable to Spike and his
journey, not just his current state but over the last few
seasons.
With a bit of editing and I can't vouch for the
translation:
From Plato's Republic
"Let’s compare our own education and understanding of the
world to people in a cave—to human beings in an underground,
cave-like dwelling with a long and wide entrance open toward
the light. From childhood on, the people who live in this
cave have their legs and necks chained so that they can see
only straight ahead in front of them. The chains keep them
from turning their heads in any other direction.
"The only light in the cave is from a fire burning far above
the people and behind them. Between the fire and the chained
people there’s a road, built on a kind of stage structure
such as you find in theaters—again above and behind the
people—along which move other people and animals, some
carrying things, some not, some speaking, some not."
"This is a bizarre image of of bizarre prisoners," Glaucon
said.
"But they’re just like us," I replied. "Do you think they
can see anything of themselves and one another? Or do they
merely see the images or shadows that fall on the side of
the cave facing them, cast by the fire above them?"
*****
"Then for sure," I said, "what the chained people held to be
the truth would be nothing more than shadows."
"Now let’s imagine," I said, "what freedom from their chains
would be like. Suppose one of the chained people, a man, was
released and immediately forced to stand up and look toward
the light. He’d necessarily be doing this in pain, because
the light would be dazzling. At first, he wouldn’t be able
to make out the shapes of the men and animals walking up on
the elevated road in front of him—which he’d seen before
only as shadows.
"What do you suppose this man would say if someone told him
that he’d only been looking at shadows and now he was seeing
real things? And how would the man reply if he were asked to
describe the nature of these real things [the shadows of
which he’d been looking at all his life]? Wouldn’t he feel
at a loss? And wouldn’t he be tempted to think that what
he’d looked at all his life must be truer than what he’s
seeing right now?"
"What if the man were forced to look right into the light of
the fire? Wouldn’t it hurt his eyes? Wouldn’t he turn away
from it? And further, wouldn’t he turn back to the shadows,
thinking them more clear and therefore more true than the
light itself?"
"Now," I said, "what if someone were to drag that man up to
the light, forcing him through a steep and rugged ascent
into the light itself—where he couldn’t see anything and his
eyes hurt? Wouldn’t the man be distressed, even angry? And
wouldn’t he be unable to see anything, even what was being
presented to him as the truth of things?
"He’d need time and practice, perhaps learning to perceive
the truth in stages—first seeing the dim images of things as
he had with shadows before, maybe then seeing things
reflected in water, and then finally being able to look at
the real men and animals that had before just been shadows
on his cave wall. As for the bright sky, he’d have to start
by looking at it first at night, seeing only the light of
the moon and stars, and that way gradually accustom his
sight to the full light of day."
"Then as he was able to see the sun, he’d be able to
contemplate its nature, to realize that it was the source of
seasons and light and the shadows that he and his cave
companions had been staring at all their lives."
***
"Now, let’s imagine what would happen if that man returned
to his place in the cave. Wouldn’t his eyes be blinded, as a
man coming into darkness suddenly from sunlight?"
"And what if the man—before his cave-sight returned—were to
try to compete with other cave-dwellers about the shadows?
Wouldn’t he seem ridiculous to the others? And during the
time while his sight was adapting to the darkness, wouldn’t
his former friends say that his sight had been ruined by
going up to the light? And that he should never try to go
back up to the light again, because it would destroy his
sight again? Might not his friends even say that anyone who
tried to lead him back to the light ought to be stopped,
even killed?"
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
WOW ! that's so right on. Great spotting, ponygirl,
thanks for the quotes -- Etrangere, 13:02:54 05/18/02
Sat
The pain from the light (Wisdom-Sophie) that Spike feels
right now is the pain from remorse
and ofcourse, he wants to go back to the painless obscurity
where he would be a mere Shadow of himself (like every
vampires are)
This is so.. neat :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[>
KABOOM...and fits so well with the dark/light
theme... -- Caroline, 13:19:48 05/18/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[>
Brilliant post, Etrangere. That Spike would want to
return to... -- Ixchel, 21:07:05 05/18/02 Sat
A state of "invunerability" where remorse and guilt can't
touch him makes perfect sense (to retreat from the light).
Of course, his imperviousness as a vampire was an illusion
(IMHO), Drusilla could affect him and did (though, I
believe, not as profoundly as Buffy and Dawn have). But in
his present pain now, he can't see this. As an aside, it
could be argued that his vulnerability to Drusilla left him
open to the path he has followed since Becoming 2 (to the
changes the chip and his love for Buffy have initiated).
Really interesting image of vampires as shadows. To further
that they could be described as angry and hungry
shades/ghosts. Haunting the world, forever acting out their
rage at the "slights and sins" perpetrated against their
human selves.
Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
"The light which puts out our eyes is darkness to
us." -- Dyna, 09:01:58 05/20/02 Mon
I wish I had profound thoughts to go with this beautiful
quote, but, you know, work, Monday, blah blah. I was
reading Thoreau this weekend and this quote struck me as
nicely related to last week's discussion of light and
darkness.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Spike and the Cave -- alcibiades, 11:40:16
05/17/02 Fri
Isn't that fascinating -- the big old cave metaphor complete
with shadow puppets on the wall. I've been thinking about
that since yesterday morning
-- this scene also bookends really well with Buffy's
emergence from the cave into the natural sunlight in AYW,
which is also the place where Buffy destroys Spike's lamp,
his other "false" light source.
Course, not being a philosopher, but a woman of action Buffy
didn't realize she was crusading for Plato. And neither did
I, because if I had it would have reconciled me to her
actions in AYW a whole lot earlier.
If AYW is about Riley, ugh. But, hey, if it has allusions
to Plato, well then that's another story. Which makes me
realize just how cheap I am, since I hated AYW.
Now if I can only figure out how to interpret away the demon
eggs...
With any luck, I'll post more about this today or tomorrow -
-
And the scariest question of all?
Can Marti Noxon be a Platonist?
No way!
It must have been Joss.
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Re: Spike and the Cave -- Arethusa, 14:29:26
05/17/02 Fri
We still don't know the facts surrounding the eggs-we only
see Buffy's point of view. She sees the shadows of the
situation-Riley's accusations, the physical presence of the
eggs, Spike's lack of explanation-but she doesn't yet know
the reality of the situation. To see the truth, she'd have
to know *all* the facts.
To get back to Plato-Buffy would have to climb out of
Spike's cellar (dark cave, anyone?) and find out the entire
truth. Buffy's been wilfully blind about nearly everything
this year; it takes a lot of energy to deal with others'
problems, and she wouldn't even face her own. She became
angry at Giles when he insisted she see his point of view-he
was hurting her by staying, and he wanted to go home. Buffy
repeatedly threatened or attacked Spike when he insisted she
see his point of view-he wanted to drag their seamy affair
out into the light (so to speak). Will's and Xander's
insecurities were also ignored. Buffy complains about how
bright the world is, and then closes her eyes, heart, and
mind to the pain all around her.
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Re: Spike and the Cave -- shadowkat, 20:13:03
05/17/02 Fri
Cool thread!
Alcibiades - I also immediately thought of AYW when I saw
the Plato statement about coming out of the cave and seeing
light - the immediate image I saw was of Buffy her head
tilted towards the light. Also i remember her being
blinded
by the light in Afterlife. Then we have her at the end of
Afterlife - leaving the safe den of the Magic Box and the
group hug to the bright outdoors - only to retreat to
shadows with Spike, whom she states she can be alone
with.
From Afterlife - AYW - we seldom see Buffy out in the
daylight - unless you count Gone and invisible Buffy.
Then AYW onwards - we do see her in daylight, but she seems
weaker somehow. Easier hurt.
Onto Spike...when Buffy leaves him in AYW, he's
heartbroken
in his ruined cavelike crypt. Now we have him entering
another cave - looking heartbroken, using artifical
light..
hmmm, I'm wondering if the last scene of the year will be
Spike walking out of the cave into sunlight???
(No clue, but would be a cool echo of AYW)
Wasn't overly fond of AYW either - very clunky episode
plotwise and not worthy of the usually fantastic Doug Petry.
(I think the writers were trying to mix James Bond
and X-files...with an old Nazi propaganda film or at least
it looked like it.) But I do think that Spike was the
Doctor, what strikes me as weird is - Spike asks if the
doctor is human??? Also the eggs?
Now Needs a Life on the B C & S board did a very good post
about eggs - she said the destruction of eggs in Liturgy
stands for a sort of rebirth of a relationship. Or the
wrecking of one stage to go onto the next. She also says,
and my memory is foggy here because this was posted way back
in February - that eggs are representative of hospitality
and fertility, showing domesticity and comfort.
The metaphor can be turned upside down to show something
untrust-worthy underneath. Examples: The Bad Eggs
episode
in Season 2 Btvs where parasites sprouted from eggs. Or the
resurrection eggs of Ghorra demon in Forever of Season 5
Btvs.
I think here - the eggs metaphorically represented the
underlying distrust in Buffy/Spike relationship. On the
surface they appeared to have a comforting, hospital,
romantic one, but it was rotten inside because they couldn't
trust each other and were both unbalanced. By destroying the
eggs and his crypt, Buffy destroys this unbalanced tricky
unhealthy relationship. I think that's the metaphor they
meant...wish i could remember needs a life's post better, so
it would make more sense.
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Fascinating posts, ponygirl, Arethusa and
alcibiades. -- Ixchel, 20:06:55 05/17/02 Fri
ponygirl, brilliant insight! Thank you for the compliment
on my makeshift theory of vampire eyesight (I _am_ odd). I
think (hope) this bodes well for Spike. I wonder, Tara's
song in OMWF describes her life as being in shadow and then
being bathed in light, is there some connection?
Arethusa, I'll stay in my cave if BtVS is there,
enlightenment is overrated. :) Excellent point about Buffy,
they've _all_ (except for poor Tara?) been in the cave this
season.
alcibiades, interesting point regarding Spike's crypt in
AYW. I do believe there is more to that episode than is
readily apparent (as many of the wonderful posts after it
aired showed). Also, I have a great deal of admiration for
DP's other episodes, so I can't dismiss it (and, IMHO, the
Buffy/Spike and Xander/Anya scenes were well done).
Ixchel
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Lovely, fresne! -- Dyna, 16:20:29 05/17/02
Fri
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Willow's clothes and the Furies (Villains spoilers)
-- Ixchel, 21:42:38 05/17/02 Fri
Wonderful post, fresne! My head is spinning with all the
interesting points you've described.
I noticed (as did Dyna in an above thread) that Willow is
wearing the same jacket (and possibly pants) as she did in
DT (it looks like black denim to me). Could this mean
something?
The Furies definitely seem reflected in Willow in this
episode. The names of two, Tisiphone (blood avenger)and
Alecto (unceasing in pursuit), seem especially relevant.
I'm not sure about the third, Megaera (jealous).
Again, excellent thoughts.
Ixchel
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Re: Willow's clothes and the Furies (Villains
spoilers) -- fresne, 08:19:43 05/18/02 Sat
Well, when my friends and I decided be the Furies one year
for Halloween, we dug up: Alecto, whose anger is unceasing;
Tisiphone, avenger of murder; Megaera, jealous of the world;
and (since there were four of us - non traditional, but
couldn't be helped, we threw in,) Nemesis, unceasing
retribution. I was Tisiphone.
Anyway, sharp eyes on the DT jacket and pants connection.
Not sure what to make of the DT scene itself, but it does
seem to prove that those are her clothes.
And as someone who does a lot of costuming, I can't help but
see significance in her garb. She took the time to change.
Before going to heal Buffy. Before seeking her revenge. In
the same way that she has shed all those cutsey shirts which
have something on the front. Dressed to be someone dark,
tough, dangerous. I want to imagine the changing scene,
again in contrast to the Body. She goes the Magic Box,
splattered in her lover's blood. Paints her hair and eyes in
dark magic. Then goes home to where her lover's body lies
and changes her clothes. This time I imagine no hesitations,
no Willowish looking for the blue sweater. Just cold
decisions to put on her new skin.
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Re: Willow's clothes and the Furies (Villains
spoilers) -- Ixchel, 17:02:39 05/18/02 Sat
What a creative idea for Halloween. Did you have to explain
your costume or do you hang with a mythologically literate
crowd?
It _is_ interesting, I suppose it's Willow's sense of the
appropriate (what to wear when taking revenge?). This could
be related back to Restless (surprise), another Willow
facade?
Ixchel
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Jealous of the world (*spoiler* for finale, mostly
implied by promo) -- belle, 14:41:43 05/19/02 Sun
..."Now I get to be the Slayer" certainly suggests some deep
resentment of Buffy finally coming to the fore, no?
Certainly it'd be very believable that Willow has seething
envy backed up along with everything else; and it would
provide depth (not to mention plausibility) to her going
after her friends.
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Jealous of the world (*spoiler* for finale, mostly
implied by promo) -- belle, 14:43:24 05/19/02 Sun
..."Now I get to be the Slayer" certainly suggests some deep
resentment of Buffy finally coming to the fore, no?
Certainly it'd be very believable that Willow has seething
envy backed up along with everything else; and it would
provide depth (not to mention plausibility) to her going
after her friends.
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Re: Willow's clothes and the Furies (Villains
spoilers) -- fresne, 08:53:37 05/20/02 Mon
Well, we helped things along by circling people in a
menacing fashion and asking if they knew where Orestes was,
killed any relatives lately, and talked A Lot about revenge.
That said, we had a fair number of people who took one look
and courteously greeted the Kindly Ones.
Oh, and in a slightly relevant way, this was at the Ball de
Vampyre.
Okay, yeah, Restless, to which all roads lead. Randomly, I
think about Willow starting by painting a Sappho poem on
Tara's back and then resolving with her "costume" ripped
away to reveal her 1st season clothes. As Anya
paraphrasingly said at the time, "It's like a Greek Tragedy,
but without the Greeks." Now we get to the tragic driven
hubris part of things. And in a really reading into things
here, Buffy's the Lion, Willow's the Witch, the Wardrobe is
where they keep all their appropriate to the occasion
outfits.
And thanks to the various who have been referring to Willow
as the Widow. Makes me leap over to Queen Victoria and the
whole bizarre cult of mourning.
[>
Re: Special effects in "Villains"
(spoilers) -- dream of the consortium, 11:17:53
05/16/02 Thu
Personally, I found the skin-peeling so gruesome I felt
nauseous - but I did feel a little bloodthirsty listening to
Warren. Just not that bloodthirsty. Could have lived without
that degree of graphic eewwww-ishness.
Really loved the text into the flesh thing. Knowledge is
power, yes? Certainly for Willow, whose only power pre-
Buffy came from being a good student. And then, in the
Buffy early years, from research. Finally, as she delves in
dark magic, she learns from books again and again -spells
can be bought, apparently, (prepackaged, perhaps?) but
Willow always seems to get her spells from books. So it
seemed right that she would pull her power right out of the
books, drain them clean. (It's also an image for readers -
which of us has not turned to our books for solace in hungry
pain.)
This is a bit off-topic, really belongs to the discussion of
Willow's psychology, butI've lost that thread somewhere
below - so I will mention it here. I don't have a working
tv, and I have a drawing session on Tuesday nights anyway,
so I have a fellow Buffy-watcher tape the episodes for me
and I watch them the next day. He often fails to tape the
previews. When I watched "Villians" for the first time last
night, I absolutely believed that when Willow said "One
down," the implied "one to go" was herself. When she went
all poof, I thought she had destroyed herself, like the
shamans Sam mentioned. Willow had said she didn't plan to
come back (from the dark), and I believed that she would
rather kill herself than live without Tara (the tendency to
overidentify mentioned below). It wasn't until my second
viewing (I was so emotionally wrought from the first viewing
I was unable to do anything else) that I realized she could
have just been doing something magick-y, and maybe Jonathon
and Andrew were the "two to go". But I spent an evening
convinced that they had killed off Willow and Tara both,
which was just crushing. So I want to know -was I the only
idiot who didn't get that right off?
[> [>
LOL. I thought the same thing. The preview, which I
usually don't watch, allowed me to breathe again --
Sophist, 13:12:10 05/16/02 Thu
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