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Soulmate vs. Lover- B/A Theory -- Wizardman, 15:55:35 07/22/02 Mon

One B/A concept that I've come across on the 'Net- and one that even the ME officals seem to hint at- is that while Buffy and Angel are no lnger lovers, and are probably no longer in romantic love with each other, they are still in fact soulmates. I've wondered about what that might mean. This is what I've come up with.

To be someone's soulmate is different than being their lover. Two people can love each other with everything that they have, but a soulmate is different. Soulmates are beyond love. Your soulmate is someone whose spirit matches yours in some profound and intangible way. This person doesn't necessarily complete you- although they can- but this person IS you. You posess an empathy for and understanding with your soulmate that is on a different level than what you would feel for a lover. Having a soulmate in no way invalidates or lessens what you feel for a lover, but it means that your soulmate owns a part of you that no one else can. Even if you love another with everything else that you have, that special part of you cannot be given. That is what a soulmate is to me.

Buffy and Angel hold a deep connection to each other. They may not be in romantic love with each other anymore, and their soulmatedness doesn't lessen what they feel (or felt) for Cordelia, Riley, and Spike, but that connection exists and will probably always exist. While I would argue with anyone that says a romantic B/A relationship is impossible, I will say that it is unlikely. What I do hope to see- and hopefully soon- is a strong B/A friendship. It doesn't have to be major- for example, if we should see Faith in the upcoming season (and with ED's schedule and Faith's position on both shows, it will almost certainly be on both shows if it happens), even a "Tell the Scoobies/L.A. Gang that I said hi" would make me happy. And a crossover that doesn't end with either of the two hurt or furious would make me jump for joy. That's just me though...

[> Man, I'm with you -- AngelVSAngelus, 22:56:59 07/22/02 Mon

Possibly because I'm, as Cordelia said of Buffy in relation to ghost James in IOHEFY, "identifying much". My ex girlfriend and I have a profound connection beyond words, we just virtually ARE each other, not in the sense of their being no differences between our personalities or identities, but in the sense that we seem to share the same consciousness. We don't have to speak, we KNOW with a simple glance what the other is thinking, at all times. Its crazy. Its for that reason we're best friends, post her not wanting to be involved in a relationship right now.
I guess I sort of look at B/A that way. Their connection is one that seems to me to transcend even romantic interaction. I'd love, as you suggested, to see this kind of connection realized in a long distance friendship between the two, though I suppose with separate networks and the writer's "they're in different worlds now" position, that's kind of unlikely.
I just think of them as the type that, despite many trials and completely differing situations, never really grow apart. If they were brought together into the same room again, I'd imagine they could sit down and converse like they'd just seen each other last yesterday.

I need evil Spanish help! -- d'Herblay, 03:49:41 07/23/02 Tue

It's way too early for Julia to be up. I don't know whether anom even has regular hours these days. Malandanza seems like he'd be the perfect person to help out with Evil Spanish, but then, how much French do I know? Anyway, for various reasons, I need to get reasonably idiomatic translations of the following:

Do you want to eat my big buritto?

and

You'll do what you're told if you want to live.

Currently, I have ¿Usted quiere de comer mi burrito grande? and Usted hará lo que le dicen si usted desea vivir. The first sounds ok, but I think the second is gibberish (I've been over at babelfish again -- when will I ever learn? a foreign language? never!).

Any help would be appreciated. Also, if anyone knows what word I'm thinking of when I type deweomers, please tell me, because I'm sure there's a word that looks something like that which means "enchantments," but I can't find it in either dictionary.

[> Ok, Google thinks it's "dweomers," but . . . -- d'Herblay, 03:56:05 07/23/02 Tue

. . . hits seem to be limited to D&D and Katherine Kurtz related sites. The history of this word would seem to be up some of your alleys; can anyone tell me if the word was used legitimately before the post-Tolkein era?

Oh, by the way, this thread is OT. Or it's on-topic, but has minor spoilers for the Fanged Fic. Now I tell you.

[> [> lol, I only know it from Katherine Kurtz -- Rahael, 04:46:10 07/23/02 Tue

But she dabbles a lot in Welsh mythology - perhaps it has a Celtic origin? I could be talking rubbish, but perhaps Marie might know?

[> [> Re: Ok, Google thinks it's "dweomers," but . . . -- aliera, 05:07:24 07/23/02 Tue

Do you mean Kerr, d'H, and the Deverry books?

Started in 1982, based in Celtic; but, she says that the magic system owes more to Jewish. Suspect it's the spelling that's causing you problems. Sidenote: there's a Perl connection.

[> [> [> Re: the roots of "dweomer" -- aliera, 05:27:52 07/23/02 Tue

this the result of search for (roots dweomer) which brought up 'take our words magazine', issue 102:

Question From Pjotr:

Do you know the exact meaning and etymological roots of the word dweomer? It is often used in fantasy literature as a synonym for "magic spell", but I was unable to find the word in any dictionary. can you help?

Of course we can help but, boy, those fantasy novels certainly go out of their way to use obscure words! What's wrong with straightforward words like cantrap? We are not surprised that you couldn't find this word in a dictionary. As far as we can tell, it occurs only once in medieval
literature - in a work from around 1205. Even then it does not occur alone but in the compound term dweomer-craeften meaning "magic art". It is thought to be related to the Old English gedwimer (or gedwomer)
"sorcery".

Then again, there is the song by Supertramp: "Dweomer... can you put your hands in your head? Oh no!"

Hope this helps.

[> [> [> [> Re: the roots of "dweomer" -- auroramama, 21:47:17 07/23/02 Tue

I assumed it was either Old English or Tolkien's reconstruction thereof, because it's part of his 'translation' of the language of the Rohirrim, who are wary of the magics of the Golden Wood:
"...in Dwimmordene, in Lorien..."
Or am I remembering wrong?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: the roots of "dwimerdene" -- aliera, 08:22:10 07/24/02 Wed

No, you're right.

Dwimerdene: (Roh. translation haunted valley) name given to Lorien by the Rohirrim. (bk III)

also used...

Dwimerberg: (tr haunted mtn) for the mountain in Ered Nimrais behind Dunharrow, in which was the Dark Door. (bkII)

Dwimmerlaik: (tr work of necromancy, spectre) name given to the Lord of the Nazgul by Eowyn at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. (Bk III)

I'll see what I can find.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: the roots "dwimer/dwimmer" vs "dweomer" -- aliera, 09:01:18 07/24/02 Wed

Sorry, I'm not going to be able to get the answer. Rohirrim was apparently based on Mercian Old English and I just don't find much in the way of on-line resources. Maybe someone else with a linguistics background or who knows more about how Tolkien used the vowels in this language?

Funny, mostly Perl sites again.

DWIM = do what I mean

(if only!) :-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: the roots "dwimer/dwimmer" vs "dweomer" -- auroramama, 19:31:10 07/24/02 Wed

From Ruth S. Noel's =The Languages of Tolkien's Middle- earth= (1980 edition), p. 24-25. Definitions for words of the Rohirrim:
dwimmerlaik: ME dweomerlaik 'legerdemain' from OE dwimor 'illusion'. [So Eowyn was saying, "Begone, foul magic trick"? Okay...]
The connotations are similar but not identical in:
dwimorberg: OE 'haunted mountain'
dwimordene: OE 'valley of illusion'

Does anyone have a different reference?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks auroramama -- aliera, 06:49:15 07/25/02 Thu

[> Re: I need evil Spanish help! -- Cactus Watcher, 05:55:13 07/23/02 Tue

One person close to you: Quieres comer mi burrito grande?
One person, not close: Quiere Usted comer mi burrito grande?
More than one person: Quieren Ustedes comer mi...?

The second looks like it would have a subjunctive in it which I would surely foul up, but it looks close to right. 'Dicen' as written would mean someone else besides you was giving the orders. Excuse the lack of preceding upside down question marks. A computer whiz I'm not.

[> Re: I need evil Spanish help! -- Rattletrap, 06:41:33 07/23/02 Tue

*'trap dusts off the long unused Spanish-speaking part of his brain*

CW's translations of the first one are exactly what I'd come up with. The second one is technically fine as it is, but this might be a bit closer:

Harás lo que le dicen si quieres vivir

or

. . . si no quieres morir would say "if you don't want to die," another possibility to consider.

Added sidenote: ¿Quieres comer mi burrito grande? would be the most common translation of the first in Mexico and most of Latin America. The (formal) Usted form is used only very rarely in conversation there. I can't speak for Spain.

[> Re: I need evil Spanish help! -- Purple Tulip, 07:00:23 07/23/02 Tue

Well, I've taken six years of Spanish and I've been to Spain, so my Spanish is pretty decent---what you've got sounds correct. Spanish sometimes does sound like giberish because they say a lot of words backwards, or in a different order than we do. That's why translations are sometimes not exact. If you're still not sure, then go to www.sparknotes.com and go under translator---you can translate any quote into many different languages, and I know that Spanish is there because I've used it myself!

[> Re: I need evil Spanish help! -- Malandanza, 07:17:56 07/23/02 Tue

"You'll do what you're told if you want to live."

CW translation for the first is good -- I'd use the second (familiar) unless you have a good reason for burrito eating to be formal.

As for "you'll do what you're told..." -- definitely familiar (tu form). Command would probably be appropriate here as well. Maybe "do what I tell you", or "do what we tell you" would be better (as CW mentions):

Haz lo que te digo si quieres vivir.

or

Haz lo que te decimos si quieres vivir.

As for the subjunctive after the if clause -- I don't know that it's required as the subjunctive is typically used to show doubt or uncertainty -- the subject probably doesn't have any doubts that they want to live. Still, the subjuntive is probably better grammatically, since the speaker might be expressing doubt that the subject want to live based on his current (undoubtedly foolish) actions:

Haz lo que te digo si quieras vivir.

(Do that which I tell you if you wish to live -- is how I would translate this literally)

Encantamientos for enchantments -- we had to read Cuentas de Hadas (Fairy Tales) in my Spanish classes, so I have a speacialized and almost completely useless vocabulary -- Bruja, for example, is witch, while Principe Azul is Prince Charming, enano is dwarf, etc.

[> Ok, now you're making me crazy -- Vickie, 07:24:34 07/23/02 Tue

I see you got the Spanish help you needed. So when do we see the fic for this?????????

[> [> Well, if you've been following along... -- Deeva, 09:03:11 07/23/02 Tue

Thank so very much for doing so! Currently we're released up to chapter 3. What d'H is writing would maybe chapter 13. Hang in there! It'll be out before you know it.

[> Re: I need evil Spanish help! -- Ixchel, 07:45:43 07/23/02 Tue

My Spanish is serviceable, but not great. So I checked with a Colombian friend and she translated your second phrase as follows:

Mejor que hagas lo que te han dicho o te mueres. (Best that you do as you are told or you die.)

It makes sense that if you're threatening someone you would use "tu" rather than "Usted".

Hope this helps.

Ixchel
Missing the board lately because of RL demands. :(

[> not exactly regular hours... -- anom, 11:06:24 07/23/02 Tue

...& then I couldn't get to the board for about an hour (same as last night--loaadddiiiinnnnnggggggg...). Between %^*&* Voy & my !@$%@#$ browser, I haven't been able to get my reply through till now (I hope). As for the evil Spanish, I agree w/the other posters who prefer tú to usted--the latter makes it sound like the speaker is calling the other person "Ma'am" (I'm assuming the burrito is, ahem, metaphorical, although maybe that doesn't imply anything about sexual orientation) & addressing her by her last name.

"Do you want to eat my big buritto?"

First off: burrito, double r, one t. I'd use ¿Quieres comer mi gran burrito? Usually gran means "great" rather than "big," but if my assumption is correct, that may be entirely appropriate. ...mi burrito grande just doesn't sound right to me, although it might work better if I'm wrong & you're being literal.

One question on this one: Does the scene take place in the present day, or close to it? I'm not sure burrito would be used in earlier times.

"You'll do what you're told if you want to live."

Harás lo que se te dice si quieres vivir. I'd definitely use the reflexive here, rather than lo que te dicen, which means "what they tell you." Cactus Watcher & Malandanza mentioned the subjunctive, & you could say lo que se te diga, which is more like "whatever you're told," but the indicative sounds better to me in this case. Actually, se te manda (or subjunctive mande) might be better; it has more of a sense of giving orders.

Ixchel's Colombian friend's version could also work: "Mejor que hagas lo que te han dicho o te mueres. (Best that you do as you are told or you die.)," although te han dicho actually means "they have told you," & I'd still go w/the reflexive se te dice (or se te manda), "you are told." Malandanza's "Haz lo que..." ("Do what...") is also a possibility.

BTW, if you want a laugh, try Google's translation feature. Search on a word in Spanish (or French, Italian, German, or Portuguese), & when the results come up, click on "Translate this page" for any of them. I especially recommend recipes in Spanish (enter "receta" [recipe] or any food word in Spanish)--hilarious!

Oh, & Cactus Watcher? For ¿ try Alt+0191, & for ¡ it's Alt+0161. It doesn't work on every computer, but it's worth a try.

[> [> Thanks -- CW, 13:15:46 07/23/02 Tue

Now it'll probably be another 30 years before I'd need it again. LOL.

We have complicated the issue, haven't we? And people wonder why computer translation never really works.

[> Thanks everyone! You guys are the greatest! -- d'Herblay, 13:16:14 07/23/02 Tue

For the moment, I am going with ¿Quieres comer mi burrito grande? (CW's suggestion) for the first and Mejor que hagas lo que se te manda o te mueres (Ixchel's, with a tweak by anom which I may have interpolated incorrectly) for the second, because I like the punning possibilities. Of course, now I'm doubting that there were even burritos in 1896. Urggh.

I'm disappointed that dweamors is out the window too. Using "enchantments" instead.

By the way, for those who want to produce upside-down questionmarks and all sorts of other weird characters, bookmark this. This involves simple HTML coding (you have to type &# before the number and ; after), and should work cross- platform. There's Cyrillic! (Though typing out even a word in unicode is so timeconsuming that I'd rely on a universal find/replace in a word processor to do it.)

[> [> Burritos -- Masq, 15:05:15 07/23/02 Tue

"doubting that there were even burritos in 1896"

If they did, I am almost absolutely sure they were a Mexican (i.e., Indian) food rather than a Spanish food. Don't know what you have in mind with that burrito sentence....

[> [> [> Yes, I know that. Just be patient. -- d'Herblay, 15:50:31 07/23/02 Tue

In time, all will be revealed!

[> [> [> [> Get the visual: "Naked Burritos, 1896 -- Coming Soon to a Fanged Fic Universe near You!" -- redcat (still ! cleaning her glasses & muttering 'oh, dear'), 20:23:13 07/23/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Would a naked burrito be a burrito at all? -- d'Herblay, 03:52:40 07/24/02 Wed

Or just a mess?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sure-it just wouldn't be a saucy naked burrito. -- Arethusa, 05:16:47 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> i think the idea is... -- anom, 21:22:32 07/24/02 Wed

...naked meaning w/no taco clothing it (therefore a mess), not w/no sauce (that'd be more like an undressed salad). Actually, maybe a taco-less burrito would most resemble a salad.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Right, no tortilla, no burrito, I always say . . . -- d'Herblay, 01:55:13 07/25/02 Thu

Well, I don't always say that. I do occasionally use words like "hello" and "exegesis."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Only occasionally? -- LittleBit, 06:56:47 07/25/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> It'd be a really big taco. -- Deeva, 08:56:18 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> But, alas, it would be a *soft* taco -- Arethusa, 09:13:00 07/24/02 Wed

'Cause a soft taco is made with a flour tortilla, and so is a burrito.

I know, I know. Bad joke. Hey, at least I didn't say it would be a flaccid taco!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Soft is good cause hard shell tacos are... -- Deeva, 09:37:58 07/24/02 Wed

hard. And they tend to shred up the inside of your mouth. What? Was it something I said? *g*

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> They do fall apart under pressure, don't they? -- Arethusa, 11:41:35 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Anything like "Extreme Fajitas"? (from the movie Office Space) -- mundusmundi, 06:10:06 07/24/02 Wed

Ok, now I can safely say this is the weirdest thread I've ever posted to.

Angel article on Zap2it... about Writing Helm and Spoilers S3 & 4 -- neaux, 04:55:36 07/23/02 Tue

I'm putting this up as much as I hate to put up posts with spoilers..

it wasnt until after I read half the article that I realized the bottom half contained general spoilers for Season 4. =\

here is the
Link

or cut and paste this:
http://tv.zap2it.com/sciencefiction/feature.html?27099

[> Re: Angel article on Zap2it... about Writing Helm and Spoilers S3 & 4 -- LadyStarlight, 05:56:04 07/23/02 Tue

Thanks for the link, neaux. One thing tho, there's a really annoying ad for something that blocks out a good portion of the text while everything's loading. But then it goes away.

[> [> Yes, the dreaded Pop-up ads.......hate em... -- Rufus, 06:35:16 07/23/02 Tue

[> [> Sorry LadyST!! ^_^ -- neaux, 07:43:29 07/23/02 Tue

I didnt want to copy and paste the article.. because I dont want to get the board in possible trouble with copyright issues.

I didnt know what the board had decided about reprinting articles.. so I wanted to play it safe. =D

[> [> [> Don't be sorry... -- LadyStarlight, 09:41:56 07/23/02 Tue

...it was a good article, just that the ad kinda threw me for a second. And I'm easily throwable these days. ;)

The replacement: Two Spikes? -- luvthistle1, 07:14:49 07/23/02 Tue

It occured to me that Spike has been helping the scoobies since season 5. We also haven't season much of his demon face in season 5 nor 6. Then it also, occured to me what "doc"said( S5 (forever) .Doc had said that he recognize Spike from somewhere. that he look like the guy who hang out at the corner mart: Is this foreshadowing of Spike getting a soul, or is there someone else who looks like him? Spike was also hit by that shot by that same demon that zapped Xander in "the replacement" (although it supposedly hit his lamp,would Spike had notice? Xander didn't. It would explain for his un-demon like ways after "the replacement"
suddenly he know longer wants to hurt the scoobies or ask for money for his services. That could be why he was surprise by his own actions in "Seeing Red" nor did he have any desire to bite Buffy in "Tabula Rasa". So if Toth did split Spike into two I would imagine that one of them would have all the humanity of William and the other all the evilness. Perhaps one is human but evil and the other is the Spike we know and love and who is trying to do good & is in love with the Slayer. Their seems to be Spike lookalike in Bargaining where the SG is seeing off Giles at the airport. I think It would be interesting if they are both shown next season but we don't know that there are two of them. We would see soul Spike being all good and then evil Spike and think they are the same.Therefore , he would not be like Angel nor William.
What do you think?

[> Re: The replacement: Two Spikes? -- Purple Tulip, 07:42:40 07/23/02 Tue

Soooo....are you saying that the Spike we saw last season was not the real Spike, but simply the "William" part of him? Like when Xander was split, neither half was "the real Xander"? That's a really interesting theory. I've always kinda wondered what Doc meant by what he said---if he was just babbling or if he really was foreshadowing something. I don't remember that part in "Bargaining" though- the one in the airport. Of course, if Spike really was hit, would it have had the same effect on him that it had on Xander? Xander is human and Spike is a demon---would one demon's toy work on another demon? That certainly would make for an interesting plot twist next season. If your theory is true, then all of Spike's actions this past season wouldn't be because of his love for Buffy, it would be his "William" side trying to be good. And what's interesting: We first saw Spike's love for Buffy visualized in "Out of My Mind", which followed "The Replacement". So, if Spike really was split into two, and we just haven't found out yet, then it would make sense that the very next episode is the one where we see his love begin to play out, as it's that personality that we seem to have followed throughout season six. This could also be why Buffy was able to fall for him in the way that she did, because she would never fall for evil Spike, but she possibly could for sweeter, kinder William. Hmmm...you've got me thinking now....

[> [> Well I Doubt They'll Go There, But I'd Enjoy It -- AngelVSAngelus, 08:03:00 07/23/02 Tue

For one thing, it'd be something that could be viably pulled and fit with the cannon, something late-Season 5/Season 6 Spike with a conscience can't and didn't do,IMHO. It would be an exploration of the different sides and dimensions of Spike's character without contradicting any rules.
But what would Spike split into? Xander split into two humans each with characteristics that are collectively his. Would Spike turn into two vampires, one with the romantic inclinations of William, and one with the impulsively rash, violent tendancies of Spike?
And what about the chip? Would that too replicate itself? Or am I thinking too much?

[> [> [> Re: Well I Doubt They'll Go There, But I'd Enjoy It -- Cheryl, 15:02:14 07/23/02 Tue

Very interesting theory. I'll have to rewatch those two episodes. But if that's true, where has evil Spike been all this time?

Cheryl

[> [> [> [> They're cousins, identical cousins.... -- leslie, 16:06:10 07/23/02 Tue

Obviously NiceSpike is the one who has sex with Buffy under the carpet in the crypt and wants to chat afterward, while EvilSpike is the one who accosts her on the balcony of the Bronze, etc.

[> [> [> [> The evil Spike is human -- luvthistle1, 22:45:14 07/23/02 Tue

The human part of Spike (the one that walks in daylight) has all of the evilness. If you want "Bargining" When Giles was at the airport, you will notice a Spike look alike on the plane. and in scene son the airport. Plus, Riley stated that the doctor is world (internationally) known. Where has he been? out of town. Also, it's the first time Spike didn't say"It's because I'm evil.

Next season the scoobies would have to face there worst nightmare.I think spike 's will have to face his Human half or convince the scoobies he has a soul.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The evil Spike is human -- Jacques Regnier, 01:01:18 07/24/02 Wed

On that thought Xander had to be put back together to be whole. What do you get when you combine a human without a soul who is pure evil with a vampire who has a soul and is good. Seems to me you get Blade. A human/vampire crossbreed with all theie strength and none of there weaknesses.

Okay one question in the episode where Riley is looking for the eggs spike never denies being the Doctor but looks shocked that they're in his crypt any ideas how they got there if it was the evil human Spike's doing?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The evil Spike is human -- luvthistle1, 05:10:11 07/24/02 Wed

" I love the Blade" comparison. I never thought of that. That would be great if they do a season 8. I was just thinking, suppose Xander kills the "Human" Spike? they both would die right? or is it different with demons?

when Buffy ask him about the eggs he told her he would tell her later, after they sleep together. He Might had holding them for a friend. he was probably doing a favor for the Shark guy that he owes the kittens to , or Clem, who state to Buffy that he stays at Spike's place from time to time. He did denie about the eggs, he said he wasn't the doctor. Did you notice that he didn't say " I'm evil, remember" but Spike tried to explain himself- something that he never did before. So far we know Spike have Two friends, which is a far cry from season 4 when he didn't have any.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The eggs -- Purple Tulip, 07:32:04 07/24/02 Wed

I really thought that Spike was trying to harvest the eggs to get some money for Buffy so that she could quit working at the Double Meat Palace. In that episode (DMP), Spike did tell Buffy that she didn't have to work there, that he could "get money"---so what if this was just an attempt by to help her out, even if the methods were villianous and against the law. Spike didn't come out and say "I'm evil, rememeber?" but he did say "you know what I am, and you came to me all the same", alluding to the fact that he is still a soul-less vampire, capable of doing evil. But the fact that he would go through all of this for the his love for a woman who doesn't love him back, really says something about who he is now and who he will become next season. And if there really is an evil Spike, do you think that the good Spike knows about him? That's such an intriguing theory---and I really hope that they address the whole demon eggs thing sometime, they just kind of left it hanging there.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The eggs -- LadyStarlight, 07:40:14 07/24/02 Wed

I read something about the whole 'international arms dealer' thingie (I think it was on the BA_Gutter list, but I forget now) that basically said "How can Spike be this big international crime lord when he doesn't even have a telephone?"

Which I thought was an interesting point.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think your right -- luvthistle1, 15:11:48 07/24/02 Wed

The human part of Spike is a big international crime lord , he's the one who left town (watch the episode when giles leave town, the airport scene) The demon spike has humanity and is in love with buffy, that stayed in sunnydale. Spike was probably holding them for a friend like he said. because after that , we see he has friends Like Clem or Shark guy. It would have made sense for Clem to stated to Buffy that he stay at Spike's place from time to time or to show he has friends. Plus, Joss said in a interview, that Spike went to Africa to get a "Soul". I can send a link if you e-mail.

Buffy's New Gig (spoilers for season 7) -- Purple Tulip, 07:20:14 07/23/02 Tue

I was thinking last night about what Buffy's going to do with herself next season. If the rumors are true, then Buffy is going to join Dawn at the newly rebuilt Sunnydale High---but what can she do there without a college degree? Well, one idea that I came up with, is that the new principal, like Snyder, is aware that the high school is on top of the Hellmouth. He/She is also aware of all of the terrible things that had happened there in the past and how the school was destroyed. So, the principal doesn't want those kind of things to happen while he/she is around, sort of a "not on my watch", kind of thing. And unlike Snyder, the new principal has been made aware of who and what Buffy is (possibly by the Council, or some other method - not really sure on that one yet), and so he offers her a position at the new high school to keep things in check and to keep the students safe. He might have to invent a position for her, one that she would not need a degree to have. ---OR--- Giles could be re-hired as the Librarian because he was so good at it before, and she could masquerade as his assistent or something while really playing superhero protector or the world. Maybe the Principal would also be made aware of what exactly Giles' role was in the whole thing and he wants him around because of his knowledge on all things demon. This would deffinately apply to the "Back to the Beginning" theme that seems to be in place for next season.

So that's what my poor tired mind came up with this morning. What ya'll think?

[> Re: Buffy's New Gig (spoilers for season 7) -- Calluna, 07:42:47 07/23/02 Tue

Ever since I heard about the whole "Sunnydale High rebuilt" spoiler, I've had this image in my mind of Willow as the computer teacher, Buffy doing security (that would nicely fit with your idea of the principal knowing who B is) and Xander as the shop teacher. It would explain why everyone is back a SHS.

[> [> Re: Buffy's New Gig (spoilers for season 7) -- _, 13:27:40 07/23/02 Tue

Yes and then Screech can be Mr. Beldings personal assistant...oh wait wrong show...:-/

[> [> Buffy's New Gig (spoilers for season 7 & previous) -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 10:22:56 07/24/02 Wed

Given Buffy's lack of credentials, & checkered record (wanted for murder, fleeing a warrant, evading justice, etc.) I think that even security guard might not be realistic.

Who was it who suggested that with the Doublemeat Palace experience she could get a job in the cafeteria . . . ?

"Buffy the Luncheon-Meat Slayer."

[> [> [> Re: Buffy, the Salami Server - ( Wrong, just really wrong) -- Brian, 19:11:04 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's New Gig (spoilers for season 7 & previous) -- skeeve, 08:10:04 07/25/02 Thu

Actually it's not clear that Buffy did anything illegal. She isn't wanted for anything and no warrant was ever served on her.
Even if she had a long and checkered official history, a potential employer who knew what was going on and wanted Slayer abilities might be willing to overlook said history.

I still think that Buffy has better money-making possibilities.
With the right marketing, people would be coming from all over to watch Buffy beat the latest and supposedly greatest challenger.
They would, of course, pay for the privelege.
Is Xander's company the only construction company in town? If not, it probably pays better than DMP.

Nimrod -- MaryAnn, 11:56:44 07/23/02 Tue

Apologies if someone has already answered this question, or if the answer is obvious and I'm just being thick, but can anyone explain to me why Spike calls Warren "Nimrod" in "Smashed"? I know all about the Biblical Nimrod - mighty hunter, builder of the Tower of Babel, overweening pride, etc., etc. And I know what Campbell says in HERO about the Nimrod/Abraham, Herod/Jesus, Massacre of the Innocents parallels. But none of this seems to relate to Warren. Well, the "overweening pride" maybe, but in "Smashed" Spike knew nothing about the world domination plans of the troika. I'm also aware of possible connections between Nimrod and Osiris, and therefore a hypothetical link not only with Willow's spells but with the demon in Spike's cave, who may be Set according to one theory. This argument posits that the pictures on the cave wall, which look rather like the fate of Warren, actually portray the death of Osiris (who was torn apart by Set). The Set theory all seems more than a bit farfetched to me (doesn't mean it's not true, of course), and while it's a nice thought that Spike's use of the name may be a foreshadowing of Warren's death, I'm sure there must be a much simpler explanation.

[> Nimrod, a little insult from grade school (IMHO) -- Earl Allison, 12:07:35 07/23/02 Tue

Could be a deep reference, but I don't think so.

More likely just an insult -- used to call people I didn't like "nimrod" in grade school and junior high :)

Take it and run.

[> [> Re: Nimrod, a little insult from grade school (IMHO) -- Robert, 13:54:28 07/23/02 Tue

>> "More likely just an insult -- used to call people I didn't like "nimrod" in grade school and junior high :)"

Ahhh yes! You must be one of the people who made my public school experience a living hell.

[> [> [> Not what I meant ... apologies -- Earl Allison, 15:07:58 07/23/02 Tue

[> Re: Nimrod -- Purple Tulip, 12:40:37 07/23/02 Tue

I really think you're reading too much into this---though I admire your Biblical and philosophical knowledge---honestly, I feel I am severly inadequate and unmatching when it comes to the insight of the posters here. But I really think that the use of "Nimrod" was just an off-hand insult, like "Dweeb", "Nerd", or "Dork", (all of which I have proudly used at one time or another in my youth, though usually in a joking reference). Hope that helped:)

[> another famous source -- anom, 20:49:21 07/23/02 Tue

I thought I remembered that someone once suggested the insulting use of "Nimrod" came from a Looney Tunes cartoon in which Bugs Bunny says it to Elmer Fudd after eluding him yet again--like a sarcastic "O mighty hunter." However, I searched on it, & found this on the alt.usage.english site (newsgroups have websites?):

"In contemporary U.S. slang, 'nimrod' means 'fool, numbskull.' Rex Knepp ingeniously suggested that the origin of this was Bugs Bunny's taunt of Elmer Fudd: 'So long, Nimrod.' Unfortunately for this theory, Jesse Sheidlower says that Random House has two citations of 'nimrod' = 'numbskull' from the 1930s, before the Bugs Bunny episode containing the taunt."

How much of this Spike was aware of is something we'll probably never know. But we can speculate forever....

[> [> Re: another famous source -- MaryAnn, 12:20:10 07/24/02 Wed

Thanks, folks. My puzzlement was due to the fact that I'm English and we just don't use "Nimrod" as an insult here(so I suppose Spike shouldn't have used it either, but he could have picked it up in the US from all his TV watching). I did a little Google hunt after posting and discovered the US slang usage though I too found that no one could trace its origin. The Bugs Bunny appearance may have popularised it, but it predates that. Given that we don't use it in England, I'm wondering if it could have had its origin in some character in a very old US movie or radio show the actual memory of which has become lost in the mists of time. I can see this is just another etymological mystery I shall have to add to my little list, along with why the mackerel is holy and what the 'H' stands for in Jesus H. Christ. But I'm getting OT here. Oh, I don't know though - mackerel... soul... hmm!

[> [> [> I think I can solve one of your mysteries... -- Belladonna, 09:05:33 07/25/02 Thu

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but from my many years at Catholic school (ugh), I alway understood the "H" in Jesus H. Christ to mean holy. Jesus Holy Christ!

Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Darby, 08:53:19 07/24/02 Wed

I'm kind of teasing together a post about Angels' cowardly tendencies when it occured to me how often responses include comments to the effect of, "But I can't talk about AtS, I don't watch it."

How many of we Buffy fanatics really don't watch Angel? And if you don't, why not? If you do, can you suggest why others should?

I'm probably not a typical respondent in this case - once I get pulled into a particular milieau, in this case the Buffyverse, I tend to follow everything that seems legitimately connected. So I watch Angel, and buy the comics written by the ME creative staff, assuming that no writer can take the time to separate out their "comics canon" from the "show canon." Otherwise I ignore the books and comics, etc. However, I also enjoy all of this stuff. I thin if you like any of the pieces, you'd like the others.

That having been said, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that this past season's Angel was a more enjoyable ride than Buffy, for a slew of reasons: Less angsty darkness, which shifted the comparison the previous year clearly to Buffy. This past year, way better secondary players / guest actors. A better plotted season arc, with almost every episode contributing in a way that usually made sense, and the payoff held together better, although one could make a case for both Saint Cordy and Dark Willow being more plot-driven and less character-driven. A better ensemble feel. More "Aha!" moments as I watch the reruns, details that zipped by originally but which are rife with portent (a phrase which I ordinarily only make ironic use of) for things down the road.

To be fair, Buffy has some advantages: This board, to squeeze whatever meaning (and beyond) there is out of every microsecond. Greater tendency to bury literary allusions and metaphors (or we're all sorely misguided). Clearer, generally more sympathetic characters, which I at least fondly remember while they act like idiots. Better quips, and just an overall better blend of humor with the drama. The great episodes are truly great. What seems like a less murky mythology. Other stuff I can't think of right now.

But hey, I like the theme songs pretty much equally...

Did I just manage to hijack my own thread in a single post?

[> In my case it's... -- Masq, 09:08:43 07/24/02 Wed

"This Angel fanatic still puts up with watching BtVS..."

[> [> I watched.. didnt and do again -- neaux, 09:14:37 07/24/02 Wed

I watched the first season.. and after the season finale.. thought to myself.. what a waste of time.. so I took season 2 off.. boy was I stupid.. and Watched all of season 3 and loved it.. and now I'm back tracking season 2.

... ... now I have my cootie shot. ?_?

[> [> But everyone knows that... -- Masq, 09:20:48 07/24/02 Wed

I identify with Angel and always have. Intellectual, broody, sensitive, awkward, that's me. And with a dark side that probably has a bit of cruelty in it, although I keep that in check better (I hope!)

Of course, I'm not identifying with the super-heroey, blood- drinking parts of Angel.

I'm not finding much to identify with in BtVS these days. Wasn't much like my early 20's.

And I'd venture to say that if one of our literary metaphor- diggers put their mind to AtS, they'd find just as much subtextual literary allusions and metaphors there. It's just no one has the balls to try.

I'm not good at the metaphory stuff myself.

[> [> Re: In my case it's... -- yabyumpan, 09:33:03 07/24/02 Wed

Quote from Masq "This Angel fanatic still puts up with watching BtVS..." I second that.

I think that AtS is still seen as BtVS poor relation. Not wanting to be the 'thrower of flames' but I do think there is a snobery thing that happens. BtVS was first and is therefore the best. I also think think that that extends to DB. He is rarely given any kudos for his work, people seem stuck in the Angel/DB of BtVS S1, even though for many people, Angelus was the best 'big bad', which was pretty much down to DB's acting skills as well as the writing.

I do try to start threads and join in any Angel threads that are going, but a lot of the time the threads catch the 'spike syndrome': all threads lead back to spike. ARRRGGG! Yes, he's an interesting character but not everything in whendonverse can be related to him.

I do hesitate a lot of the time in starting AtS related threads because I've got the feeling over time that people on this board just aren't that interested. It's quite sad how I almost leap for joy when ever there is an actual discussion about AtS. The best show, ever, IMHO

[> [> *high fives Masq* -- AngelVSAngelus, 09:53:45 07/24/02 Wed

Yeah! You read my mind and spoke my words exactly!
The ONLY disappointing element of Angel this season for me was Cordelia, the ascending-part-demon. Everything else, the tightly woven story arc, the performances on everyone's part (man, in Forgiving, David B goes from vengefully obsessed to on-the-verge-of-tears-father that's lost his son and BACK in 0.2 seconds), the twists and turns in character development (Wesley), was MUCH more satisfactory for me than anything in this season of Buffy, save most of OMWF.
Add to the usual activities of the series the wonderful ep written and directed by Joss, Waiting In The Wings, and you've got a stellar season.

[> [> [> "Lullaby" was my favorite episode of this season -- Rufus, 17:19:12 07/24/02 Wed

I still prefer "Buffy" cause I identify with her more than the tall broody guy (love Wesley, like Angel at times)...my temptation is to tell the guy to take a Prozac, but then he might get all happy....and massacre.. massacre...so that's out. But seriously...it's just personal preference, I feel both shows are very strong and I watch both of them and can't wait for ATS to come out in DVD. You mentioned WITW where the henchmen are Comedy/Tragedy...I loved that it speaks to both shows so well...life is both Comedy and Tragedy and if we were all "perfectly happy" then much of the fun in life would be gone as there would be no challange to living. And who could forget the LOA, the talking hamburger...it seems ME has something out for the Fast Food people...;) ATS can have comedy and effortlessly slide into tragedy all in a breath. In Lullaby we had moments such as Darla's water breaking all over the back seat of the car and no one wanting to sit back there with her....right to the moment she stakes herself because in the first time in ANY life she loved someone...her darling boy, the one she would never meet. After reading the info at this site there is another one that goes into the allusions and the Angelspeak The Sanctuary. There should be no complaints about Angel not having deeper meaning because besides Masq there are a few other places that have taken notice of just how worthwhile ATS (Wesley the Series) is.

My only wish is that they would de-saint or whatever, Cordy who has been the only character that got less interesting as she got more power.

[> I love Angel -- Rahael, 09:11:37 07/24/02 Wed

The only reason *I* am not analysing it to its barest bones is:

This last season is the only one I've spent on the board. I have only been getting vcd's of Buffy, not Angel. Therefore, I cannot comment adequately on it.

There are no Angel Annotations being requested by Rob. They referenced Dante this year, I'm pretty sure the literary allusions are there too in Angel - just see what a small detail in IRYJ was an allusion to Fritz Lang (Kudos to Ponygirl!) - shows you the wittyness of ME.

And finally, there is no Spike in AtS. So, we don't have hoardes of posters wanting constantly to discuss one of the main themes of AtS. We don't have enough threads!! If I were a threadstarter, I would, but I'm not and I don't.

[> [> There will be "Angel" annotations... -- Rob, 09:53:53 07/24/02 Wed

...but I want to do all the episodes of both shows in order, so when I get to the end of the fourth season of "Buffy," I'll start on the first season of "Angel," and alternate eps. That will make the crossovers much easier to deal with, for the purpose of my notes.

And as far as "Angel," I started watching at the beginning, but grew bored with all the sub-par standalone eps that populated the first portion of the season, and so I stopped watching, except for the crossover eps. I tried non- crossover eps, but still wasn't enjoying that much. Then, I began getting into the show again when "Darla" aired. And I watched for a few weeks, but then, for whatever reason, stopped. I've tried to pick it up again, but keep getting confused with what's going on, etc, because I've missed too much. I wish they'd get put out on DVD, so I could start from the beginning again, and see all the eps in order.

I will say, though, that out of the 10 I've seen from the third season of "Angel," I still love "Buffy" more. This obviously could be because I'm not as aware of everything on "Angel" as "Buffy," but just from a tried-it-a-bunch-of- times standpoint, I don't care for the characters nearly as much. And that's a big problem for me. I really hope no "Angel" fans take this as a dis. This is just my own personal feelings. I adore every one of the Scoobies. I relate to every one of them in major ways, perhaps because it is the first show I've ever seen where the characters are all my age. I started in a new high school the same year as Buffy, graduated the same year as Buffy, started college the same year as Buffy, and even took a year off the same year as Buffy! And my birthday is only 2 months after Buffy's...And I've indentified in some way with almost every experience on that show, particularly in the fourth through sixth seasons, everything from having a roommate from hell to dealing with the loss of someone I love. Angel I just can't identify with on the same level, and, when he was on "Buffy," he was never one of my favorite characters.

With that said, though, I did enjoy a great deal of the recent "Angel" episodes I've seen, and I would love to get more into it, especially since I've heard so many great things about it. And I definitely need to do so in order to do the annotations...that would be kind of hard w/o it!

Rob

[> [> [> But they are out on DVD! I have S1 and S2 Angel DVDs. -- Marie, 02:29:17 07/25/02 Thu

[> [> No Spike but there's Lindsey ! I can do Lindsey anytime ! -- Etrangere, 15:37:33 07/25/02 Thu

I think I made a lapsus :)

[> Nonono, Buffy has a much better theme song! -- Vickie, 09:14:47 07/24/02 Wed

But I do love AtS. I agree it's been "more fun" to watch this season. And I do think the allusions and complexities are there.

We've just been so busy with BtVS that we haven't turned the laser beams of our gaze to AtS yet. When we do, look out!

[> [> Personally, I side with Angel -- JCC, 11:06:51 07/24/02 Wed

I just find it a little more intresting than Buffy. That darker aspect to it is very appealing.

[> [> [> Doesn't it make you want to play the air-cello? -- Masq, 11:37:31 07/24/02 Wed

Or is that just me?

[> [> [> [> Re: I think Angels theme song is the best. -- Miss Edith, 11:49:39 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> For me it's the drum lines - on both! -- Darby, 12:15:56 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: Doesn't it make you want to play the air-cello? -- Buffyboy, 14:19:49 07/24/02 Wed

As a long time Classical Music fan, I absolutely love the Angel theme. The air-cello sounds wonderful, is quite well played and its hauntingly plaintive melody is just great. The Buffy theme just isn't my kind of music; I can take it or leave it.

[> [> [> [> [> Hey BB! How's it going in your neck of the Bay Area? -- Masq, 14:44:40 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Personally, I side with Angel -- Rob, 13:25:22 07/24/02 Wed

I'm not really into that Celtic-sound of the "Angel" theme. I like the more rockin' "Buffy" one.

Rob

[> [> my band is learning the buffy theme for one of our intros... -- heather galaxy, 13:39:49 07/25/02 Thu

we're gothy, experimental (2 synths and a violin (me!)), so it won't sound like rock at all... but perhaps we should learn the angel theme as well....

hmmm...

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Sofdog, 09:24:19 07/24/02 Wed

I'm a devoted Angel viewer. The past two seasons were outstanding. Season 2 gets less credit because it ended with that annoying Pylea story, but the rest of the year had been *excellent*.

Compared to BtVS, Angel just doesn't have the same constraints. It's not a show about growing up, but simply about the struggle to do and be good. They seem to have forgotten Cordelia's supposed to be 21. Angel's past has proved some mighty rich fodder for the writers. Everything to do with Darla, Drusilla and the other vamps from his past, has been excellent. The way rituals, icons and demons are presented is on a grander scale than BtVS somehow.

I might need some time to truly articulate it. It's just a fantastic show. And the shades of gray abound. The bad guy isn't really bad. He's a crusader who hasn't had time to come to terms with the changes in the circumstances. Or he's been lied to and misdirected by other people, but he's doing what he believes is a good thing.

The layers in Angel never cease to amaze, and even gratify.

[> I do. -- Deeva, 09:25:11 07/24/02 Wed

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. If enjoy one show and they spin off another one, I'll most likely watch that one, too, thinking that I'll get a little something out of that also. But, up until recently, I didn't own a stitch of merchandising. Books, comics, action figures, t-shirts, none of it. Up until last Christmas that all changed. My friends and family having finally noticed that I love BtVS, got me what amounts to a some what scary collection of merchandising. But hey, they were gifts. But I digress.

If I really think about it, I've always enjoyed BtVS over AtS consistently. I like the blending of small comic moments that quickly get glossed over by the dramatic/scary/angsty moments. The quipping is evenly spread out through all the characters. On AtS it seems that the quippage comes mostly out of Cordy's mouth, sometimes Angel.

I agree that in this past season of AtS, they've had an awesome set of guest and secondary characters. But I won't go so far as to say that I think that it out shone BtVS.

This is hard. It's kind like trying to say which pet is your favorite. There's the one you adopted first from the pound (that's the way it should be done, people. Don't go to a pet store!) and it's great! You have fun, hang out, find out some of the cute and silly things that it does. Someone close to you sees that you love this one so much that hey!, what about another one! So they give you another pet as a gift, of which you can quite turn down, cause you know you just can't. This one takes a little getting used to and you like it and all but it's not the first pet that you chose. OK well that was certainly an interesting rambling parallel. I think I need to eat some breakfast now.

[> Angel is wonderful -- Arethusa, 09:32:36 07/24/02 Wed

and fits in better with my pessamistic world view than BtVS. I watch BtVS because I love the characters, but I watch Angel because the twists and turns never fail to amaze and delight me.

Must. Return. To Work.

[> Digging my own grave - with my handy shovel! -- ponygirl, 09:41:45 07/24/02 Wed

This of course is all my own very humble opinion but I've always had a tough time with Angel. I was an eager viewer at the start of the series, gave it the benefit of the doubt for much of the first season and spotty viewing since. I will state without hesitation that there was a 3-4 episode run around Waiting In The Wings that was utterly fabulous, but overall I have never been able to shake my initial feeling that the scripts are a rewrite or 2 away from Buffy quality. I will be watching the new season mainly for the amazing arc with Wesley. But I'll be cringing while I endure the further destruction of Cordelia's character, the continuing under-development of Gunn. And the over-reliance on divine interventions, reversals, and conventiently changing prophecies that always strike me as lazy writing.

I would definitely enjoy reading analyses of references and symbols in AtS. I love that stuff! But I've never felt that Angel could withstand the same critical regard that we turn on Buffy.

I do like the Angel theme song better though...

[> Nope -- dream of the consortium, 09:45:49 07/24/02 Wed

I never liked Angel - found the broody, mysterious thing very dull. Cordelia was occasionally entertaining, but generally not as interesting to me as my favorite BtVS characters. Buffy-period Wesley was an embarrassing cartoon who makes it difficult for me to show non-Buffy watching friends otherwise excellent season three episodes. I have to start with the apologies: "There's some cheesy monster costumes, and a wimpy British guy who's really just awful, but just ignore those parts." So when they left, I felt like someone had cleaned up my favorite show. I watched a pieces of a few episodes of Angel (my roommate watches), but unfortunately hit on the Pylea arc - can't stand swords and scorcery-type fantasy, and seeing Cordelia in that awful costume did not help my impression of the show. Because there is clearly crossover, I have gone back and read a few of the scripts, and it sounds like there's some interesting stuff going on, particularly with Wesley, but I'm not interested enough to hunt down the tapes. Life is short. I'm obsessive enough about Buffy as it is.

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Dead Soul, 09:51:49 07/24/02 Wed

I'm one of the FX parvenues (sp?) and never even saw an episode of BtVS until last fall - although to be fair to myself, my cable company didn't get the WB until January and still doesn't carry UPN. Buffy is shown on the Fox station at 11:30 Tuesday nights (and the Wed. reruns aren't being shown at all - pout).

(Sorry, this is going to be a long post, very expositiony and full of probably irrelevant personal detail. Possibly way more set-up than is justified by the payoff - I'm just saying.)

Watching the beginning of Season 6 once a week and watching the previous five seasons throughout the week was an interesting process - like reading one chapter from the back of a book then going back and reading ten chapters from the front of the book and so on (It would be a really big book). By the time the season six shows were beginning to be rerun it was like watching them again for the first time because my interest was so much greater and my understanding so much deeper.

I started watching Angel as soon as the WB was available and was promptly and completely lost. I only watched sporadically throughout the spring, in part because DB has never wound my clock, but mostly because I had no way to get the backstory besides transcripts which aren't quite the same thing. Then I discovered ATPoBtVS.

I spent hours and hours reading the archives and became more and more curious about Angel as I read the discussions. But short of begging total strangers for tapes, I didn't know what else to do. Then I ran across the magic thread. Nothing deep or philosphical, nothing funny or insightful. Just an electronics recommendation from one board poster to another. I wish I could remember who had written it - I owe them a hug!

Multi-region DVD players. I knew you could get Angel seasons one & two from overseas, but didn't know that you could get the players to play them outside of the area where they're sold. Got the player, got the DVDs, watched 'em all in one weekend - yup, all 44 eps. An experience I can either not recommend or recommend highly depending on your fondness for mind-altering substances. I had the same adrenalin, pseudo-speed rush that I had after watching the movie "Sid & Nancy" at mind-numbing volume packed cheek by jowl with 200 other punkers in a theatre in NYC. And I was an Angel convert.

So I guess my answer to the question posed by Darby is: I do. I still prefer BtVS and have serious issues with St. Cordy and over all prefer season two of Angel to season three.

An interesting theory was put forward on the board, last week I think it was. IIRC, it was that people (not everyone, obviously, but a majority) who have watched BtVS from the beginning "get" B/A and people who have only begun watching recently don't. While I think I "get" B/A - again the lack of clock winding is an issue, I also think that there is a difference between long and short timers. Long timers lived with the B/A relationship for three years. Short timers, for three months (approximately, I haven't actually sat down and figured out how long it takes FX to run through three seasons.) I think that makes a difference to the amount emotional investment people have felt in the B/A relationship.

If you've hung in this long you're probably waiting for me to get to the point. I know that when I started writing this I actually had one, if you find it wherever I've mislaid it, please let me know and thanks for reading

Dead Soul

[> [> Tried to stay on-topic but it ended up being a hijack. -- Caroline, 13:13:16 07/24/02 Wed

I'm what you call a 'long-timer' - watched from Welcome to the Hellmouth - and I adapted quite easily to Angel being gone. I enjoyed the themes and metaphors the relationship allowed ME to explore but then after 3 seasons it was enough. Angel was not only brooding (it got really boring) but selfish in his treatment of Buffy. Their relationship may have played out as a soapy, grand obsession but it was basically Angel literally and figuratively leeching Buffy dry. I agree with the people who say it's all about Buffy. And I think the reason so many people prefer Buffy and Spike together is that, for Spike, it's also all about Buffy. Angel, Parker, Riley were all about themselves. That's why there are so many women out there who swoon about Spike - he really does have a grand, magnificent obsession about Buffy and so many fans, particularly women, thrill to that in their romantic heart of hearts. I'm not a redemptionista or whatever you call the people for whom it's all about Spike, I'm just giving my humble opinion.

[> [> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Cheryl, 16:01:39 07/24/02 Wed

"I'm one of the FX parvenues (sp?) and never even saw an episode of BtVS until last fall"

My story exactly - somehow caught Buffy on FX at the beginning of this past season and was hooked so started watching Season 6 after it started and have since seen every episode since Season 1. I didn't start watching AtS until probably mid-season and it hasn't grabbed me like BtVS. It's a little too dark for me (kinda like DS9 vs the other Treks) and most of the characters don't interest me, although I am caught up in the story arc now and will watch next season.

I was never that taken with DB in BtVS, except for when he was Angelus - and then I thought he was excellent. I don't like what they're doing with Cordy's character and could care less about Gunn and Fred. I do like what they've done with Wesley, though, and I like Lorne. There's enough substance there for me to continue watching, but I don't think it will ever replace BtVS in my heart. :-)

Cheryl

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Cactus Watcher, 09:58:11 07/24/02 Wed

I run hot and cold on Angel. I thought the first season was great. I disliked the second season mostly because I don't like Julie Benz's acting and Darla was central to the story. I liked most of last season, but thought teenage Connor was too much to take. The way he acted made sense. I just wasn't in the market for that kind of story. For me, Angel had enough guilt problems without all this.

I'm not sure I'll be watching Angel in the fall. Sunday turns out to be a night I'm not interested in TV. Haven't seen one Angel rerun this summer. Maybe I'll tape it and watch it on Monday.

[> [> Further problems with me watching "Angel"... -- Rob, 10:02:35 07/24/02 Wed

If it's on Sunday nights, I already have two simultaneous shows on Sunday nights...Alias on ABC, and Sopranos/Sex and the City/Six Feet Under/Oz (whichever's airing at the time) on HBO. Can't tape three things at once! Grr aargh!

Rob

[> [> [> Re: Further problems with me watching "Angel"... -- MaeveRigan, 10:46:46 07/24/02 Wed

Rob, you can easily solve that nagging little Sunday night "Angel" problem by just saying no to HBO ;-)

"Alias" is trickier, but since it never really wound my clock (to borrow a phrase from Dead Soul), not a problem for me.

But by the time you get to annotating "Angel," DVDs! Love the annotations!

[> [> [> Re: Further problems with me watching "Angel"... -- Deeva, 10:56:22 07/24/02 Wed

I've got the EXACT same problem!! Between HBO (did you know that the upcoming season of OZ will be the last?) Alias and Angel, I'm scrathing my head. My sister watches these shows too but she's too unreliable. Love her to death but has like no memory! *sigh* At least I have a couple of months to figure it out.

[> [> [> [> Tape two, watch the third one live? -- Vickie, 11:03:19 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Tape two, watch the third one live-- absolutely, VCR's are super cheap these days. -- OnM, 19:36:17 07/24/02 Wed

And besides, if one breaks just before a critical episode taping-- you're covered!

;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, not really an option as I can't hog the two t.v.'s -- Deeva, 21:28:13 07/24/02 Wed

I've got two tv's and two vcr's but one of the tv's is on digital cable. What you record is what you're watching. You can't program it to record another show while you're watching one. Basic cable, because you don't have to deal with a cable box does not have this problem. So I can record one show while I'm watching another on the same tv. But I can't hog all these tv's cause then my boyfriend would most assuredly not be a happy camper about that and would probably think that I'm even crazier than he even knew me to be.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, 'not really an option' -- actually, it is. -- OnM, 07:29:04 07/26/02 Fri

*** What you record is what you're watching ***

This depends entirely on how the VCR is hooked up-- it isn't a 'given', as you may have been told.

I can provide several ways to let you watch one show and tape another, on both TV's. First, I have to know whether you receive any of the shows you want to tape on your basic cable, or only on the digital cable box as a digital channel. This latter point is important, because if your digital cable box is like the ones in my locale, only certain channels-- typically pay-per-view and premium channels like HBO-- are digital. The remainder of the channels are plain ol' standard cable TV analog ones, even though the box will tune them. (What, they didn't tell you that?)

So, give me a little feedback, and I can make it work for you with your existing rig. Expenses would be trivial, maybe a few bucks for a splitter or A/B switch or some cables.

You could also just buy a 3rd VCR, as I suggested originally. You do not need a third TV, the TV set has NOTHING to do with the VCR being able to tape anything.

[> [> [> [> You can also catch "Alias"... -- Herne, 11:13:32 07/24/02 Wed

... the following Friday at 10:00 pm EST on the ABC Family Channel. These are not old reruns, they are repeats of the new episodes. Hope this helps some of you :-)

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Sophist, 10:24:32 07/24/02 Wed

Before I say anything about AtS, I should say that I don't watch TV shows. I do watch sporting events and some news broadcasts and movies. I gave up on TV in about 1979; the last show I watched regularly was M*A*S*H. For me to watch Buffy is, therefore, a significant departure from my usual habits.

The first 2 seasons, I only watched AtS for the crossovers. I didn't watch the beginning of S3, but I started to watch it after seeing many glowing reviews on this Board. I watched about 2/3 of the episodes (maybe more). Frankly, I was disappointed. JMHO, but the acting on AtS is far inferior to that on BtVS. I was not impressed by the season story arc, though there were some good moments (Wes and Lilah were great). Although I've made very clear my disappointment with the ending of Buffy S6, I liked the rest of the season; at least 5 BtVS eps this season were far better than any AtS episode I've ever seen.

I don't plan to watch S4.

[> Yes,I watch both *and * watching "Angel" was less painful than Season 6 Buffy. -- AurraSing, 10:33:03 07/24/02 Wed

I've watched Angel since day one and while it's had it's ups and downs, I am fascinated by watching Cordy change towards maturity and Angel swing between the pull of good and evil.

Plus I really,really like Lorne.

[> [> me like Lorne, too - lots! -- Dead Soul, 10:48:56 07/24/02 Wed

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- JBone, 10:38:26 07/24/02 Wed

When AtS started, I wondered how in the world are they going to build an hour, week after week, around a guy who hardly talks? After the troublesome growing pains it displayed early on, I thought the show really started coming around during the Faith crossover. I think that Wesley just became much more grounded after that. And they seemed to settle on Lindsey and Lilah to represent W&H to Angel.

I still believe that BtVS is a superior show, although the gap has narrowed considerably. The new AtS show has been better than the new BtVS show more than a couple times this last year. Little things about AtS still get stuck in my craw, but I don't want to get into all that, I'm trying to let go of them.

I will say I believe AtS to be a technically better show than BtVS. I love the letterbox, and their special effects/stunts seem more seamless. That whole slow-motion sequence when Connor returned from whatever dimension was spectacular.

[> Re: Not really but... -- Purple Tulip, 10:42:36 07/24/02 Wed

I have watched it before. I have seen exactly two episodes of Angel, one of which I bought off of Ebay (I Will Remember You), and one random episode this past season that my roommate and I watched because we were curious about the show. But I don't watch it regularly, no, and here's my reasons: 1) It's on during Ally McBeal (though now that the show is cancelled, that frees up my Monday 9:00 p.m. time slot, so...) 2) I just became a Buffy fan last October, so I haven't exactly been watching either show very long 3) I find myself more connected to and invested in Sunnydale, the characters there, and the lore that surrounds the place, than I am in Los Angeles, Angel and Cordelia 4) I just can't stomach Angel and Cordelia together, (but I love Buffy and Spike, so go figure) 5) I was very dissapointed to find out, after seeing IWRY, that Doyle had been killed off in the first season of AtS 6) I love Spike and need to see him more than Angel 7) Buffy just makes more sense to me than AtS, though I'm not trying to take anything away from AtS, as I'm sure that it is a good show and very worth watching---who knows, maybe next season I'll watch, and if some channel like FX would do the re-run thing, then that would help me out a lot! ;)

Though I do like the Angel theme song better ;)

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Miss Edith, 11:31:55 07/24/02 Wed

The first season of Angel was okay. It had some exceptional episodes and a lot of dull filler. But Buffy wasn't on top form in the first season so I was prepered to wait (Cordy became my favourite charatcer on Angel and I never liked her much on Buffy).
Season 2 was my favourite season. I loved the Darla plot with all the cliffhangers. I can still remember gasping when Angel leaves W&H lawyers at the mercy of Dru and Darla. Dru is one of my favourite characters anyway and I loved watching her and Darla and season 2 is when W&H got really interesting. I loved Holland, Lilah and Lindsay and the way evil had a significant part to play and wasn't just a baddy to be killed off each season. All the flashbacks were amazing and I loved the growth of Cordy. The second half of the season wasn't quite as good. Once Angel became dark too little was made of it and there was too much filler (Blood Money etc). I loved the zombie episode though when Wesley and Gunn bonded. And the two episodes where Angel faced up to the truth about evil and tried to win back is friends were of a terrific standard. I also enjoyed Disharmany as a lighter comedy episode. And I loved Lorne. I didn't care for the pyrea arc but it was only 4 episodes and easy enough to skip when you rewatch the season.
I haven't enjoyed season 3 much. Gunn and Fred are underdeveloped and dull. Can't stand their sickly sweet romance. And I cannot stand the angelic/perfect Cordy anymore who we are constantly being to told is perfect for Angel because she is a champion. The C/A romance came out of the blue and seemed forced. Someone tells Angel he would make a good itme with Cordy and suddenly he can't stop thinking about her. It felt driven by story purposes rather than character driven. I also didn't care for Conner and the baby plot much.
What has kept me watching is Wesley and Lilah's little fling and the suggesstion Wesley is headed for the dark side. I love how the complexities of his character are being explored (ALexis is amazing) and personally I would prefer if the show was just the Wesley and Lilah show at the moment. But that's just me. I loved Wesely's inner struggle with doing the right thing and how it ended up with Conner in another dimension and Angel going crazy with rage. But then the story slows down and there are several filler installments. Just does't work for me. A story needs to build up momentum and suddenly having an episode in which Gunn is about to lose his soul for a truck doesn't work for me. I think the show does have potential and the spoilers for next season do sound promising. But at the moment I am not too impressed with the shameful lack of Wesley in the last few episodes. Sometimes he barely got a scene. And seeing Cordy float to heaven and having Conner become a regular just make me very afraid.
Basically I love the darkness but aside from Wesley and Lilah just don't feel like I'm getting it. And I miss Lindsay.

[> [> Re: Buffy without Angel is like: -- Brian, 11:54:52 07/24/02 Wed

Ham w/o eggs
beer w/o pretzels
steak w/o potatoes
apple pie w/o icecream
Martinis w/o gin
horses w/o carriages
day w/o night
x w/o y

They belong together. Each is the shadow reflection of the other. Each show is needed to appreciate the other.
For example: Angel and Buffy are single parents: Now what?

Buffy and Angel are two threads that weave a wonderful tapestry.

[> I'm gonna have to go down on the side of watching both. -- VR, 15:26:55 07/24/02 Wed

[> Sadly not -- Caesar Augustus, 16:31:32 07/24/02 Wed

Simply missed a whole bunch of episodes at the beginning (mainly due to network problems) and, having missed the continuity, didn't ever bother watching regularly. I've seen some very entertaining episodes here and there, but don't feel like catching up on 60 odd episodes!!

[> Watch both, love both, but love Angel's theme more -- LadyStarlight, 18:21:35 07/24/02 Wed

[> [> LS, did you get the tapes yet? -- Masq, 18:25:06 07/24/02 Wed

Haven't got the m.o. yet

[> [> [> Not yet, but I'm not expecting them for another week or so. -- LadyStarlight, 19:25:06 07/24/02 Wed

If you haven't gotten the M.O. within another week, lemme know & I'll get a new one & resend.

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- celticross, 20:18:01 07/24/02 Wed

I do...very much. I've watched AtS from day one and there are very few episodes I wouldn't watch again. I love BtVS (though Season 6 laid on the hurt a bit too thick for my taste), but I don't see any reason why any BtVS fan can't love both. Personally, I love the mythic feel of AtS, the prophecies and portents. The quippage may be less, but that makes the ones there are even funnier. (Fred on supermodels: "I lived in a cave for 5 years. What's their excuse?" :)

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- OnM, 20:36:36 07/24/02 Wed

I enjoy watching both shows, I just put myself into a somewhat different head space depending on which one I'm viewing.

That being said, there is little question that I prefer Buffy overall. I think it's just as Rufus and others have conjectured, namely a matter of which character (or characters) you tend to identify with the most.

For me, in that regard, Buffy's inherent 'grace', and her efforts to always make the best of a bad situation, and keep forging ahead despite setback after setback exemplifies what kind of a person I would like to be. At the same time, Buffy's flaws-- and she has a number of them-- humanize her, and make her accessible.

Or maybe it's the theme song after all. They're both beautifully composed, and sum up the nature of each show in a mere minute's time. I suppose I'd just rather spend more time rockin' than brooding!

BTW, quickie breakdown as to MHO re: Angel's 3 seasons:

S1 - Good start for a spinoff. Got better as the season progressed.

S2 - Best season overall. Loved the Pylea arc, Lorne, Cordy's character development.

S3 - Wildly erratic, up/down season for me. Some eps brilliant, fully the equal of anything done on BtVS.* Other eps outrightly dull and unintersting, never even rewound the tape to rewatch. Holtz arc falls on the brilliant side, one of the best Buffyverse villians ever. Great to see Dru and Darla again. Wesley-- ah, Wesley. For me, now the 2nd most interesting BV character after Buffy herself.

Bad side? Lorne was largely wasted, the writers didn't seem to have a clear handle on Cordy anymore (and Cordy was always a main reason for me to tune in), and Fred's character's potential has been largely underutilized.

But, as always, I'll hold off any final opinions until I see what happens next year-- S4 may justify many of these unresolved S3 events.

* OK, rereading this before clicking 'send', and I'm sorry, but I have to back down on this statement. Yes, there have been many superb Angel eps, but none of them, IMO, can equal Prophecy Girl, Surprise/Innocence, Becoming Pt II, Anne, This Year's Girl, Who Are You, Restless, Fool For Love, The Body/Forever, The Gift, Bargaining Pts. I & II, OMWF, Tabula Rasa, Dead Things, or Normal Again.

Sorry. Thinking too much again.

(Well, you did ask.)

~sigh~

[> [> Glad to see you included "Anne"... -- Rob, 22:03:17 07/24/02 Wed

...in your list of superior eps, OnM, since I adore that episode, even though I've heard complaints about it from some people. I personally thought it was just brilliant--the Buffy stuff and the SG-trying-to-cope-without-her stuff. And like "When She Was Bad," we saw Buffy in an unhappy mood for the start of the season, but in the former ep, I thought Buffy's return to being her "normal" self was too rushed, while in the same amount of time, I thought Buff's evolution from depressed/trying to put Slayer life behind her to her final resolve to return to Sunnydale was much more convincing. Perhaps the slower, more methodical pacing of "Anne" is what made it the superior episode. But I digress...

Also glad to see, btw, your inclusion of two other eps that caused some divisiveness among the fans--"Dead Things" and "Normal Again." I would personally add "Seeing Red," "Hush" and "The Zeppo" to this list as well, but that's just me. ;o)

Rob

[> [> [> Re: Sidenote: Season 6 (slight spoilers) -- Brian, 04:07:46 07/25/02 Thu

Reading these messages in this thread reminded me of a message I did some time ago about how each first episode of each season of Buffy demonstrated how Buffy needed to reaffirm who and what she was. In Annie, her reply to the demon , "I'm Buffy, the Vampire Slayer", and that kick ass image of her holding the axe, turning to waste more demons, will always be with me as a defining moment.

I now realize that all of Season 6 was a quest for Buffy to rediscover who and what she was, and her final realiation that she is Buffy the Vampire Slayer and so much more.

[> [> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Cactus Watcher, 06:49:58 07/25/02 Thu

Angel always suffers in comparison with BtVS in terms of production budget. Buffy always has that advantage. But, I think there have been Angel episodes whose stories and execution has been every bit as good as those OnM mentioned, particularly in the first season: I Will Remember You, (the rest of the Faith 'saga') 5X5/Sanctuary, and Eternity. In fact, after Restless, I personally like 5x5 the best of all the episodes of the Buffy/Angel cycle that year.

[> [> Agree..except isn't this comparing grapefruits to oranges -- shadowkat, 12:11:37 07/25/02 Thu

I actually agree with most of what OM said. I watch both
off and on. I tend to be more of a BTVS fan due to characters than story arcs, I just prefer Willow to Cordy and Spike to Angel and Xander to Gunn...but hey that's me.
I used to prefer grapefruite juice to orange juice. (Reminds me of Buffy's favorite drink being part grapefruit and part orange - great idea, must try it sometime - this is in Killed By Death.) Now I like oj and grapefruit juice equally, though orange juice is easier to digest because it's not as sour. Sort of the same for me with Btvs and Ats, Btvs I identify with more, it seems funnier, Ats just seems more broody and often scared me more at least it did in the beginning, not so really any more, (I still have problems with I Fall To Pieces). I also find more to analyze in Btvs - which is partly due to the fact that I have watched all the Btvs episodes ten times and Ats episodes once...well getting closer to twice now.

That said, my appreciation for Ats is growing now that i've gotten a chance to start re-watching those episodes. Thanks Doc! Beginning to remember why I liked Cordy. And Wesely truly is the most developed character...the changes in his character from Season 1 - Season 3 are astonishing. Beginning to get engrossed in Wesley's character arc.

What is interesting is how different Joss has tried to make the two series. One is shot in letterbox and tends to have darker colors, less light, and darker themes - while the other tends to be square shot, very bright in costumes and colors and much lighter themes. Joss in an interview sometime after OMWF explained why Angel is letterbox and Buffy isn't. Angel, he said was supposed to be more of an "epic" - the great journey. While Btvs is supposed to be smaller, squarer, with soap operic elements as well as mythic ones. I remember the interview b/c it irked me at the time.

Now I begin to see what he was trying to say. They are two completely different shows, with characters that echo each other but are also very different. Watching both actually
enriches each one.

I watched "Under Your Skin" through Eternity yesterday - and in all these episodes the true evil was human not demon.
The demons were actually being used by the humans. Very different than Btvs where the demons are metaphors for what the humans are afraid of. In Ats they are metaphors for what the humans reject or discriminate against. And since we tend to discriminate against that which we fear...well
it's just taking the metaphor to another different level.
Perhaps making the metaphor more real or literal?

I must admit I've stopped watching Angel at different points, some episodes just plainly bore me. I wasn't that interested in the Pylea storyline last year...maybe I will change my mind when I see it again? (It could be a mood thing.) And I found She, Eternity, The Ring, and several episodes in Seasons 2 and in Season 3 (Birthday, Waiting in the Wings, Provider) to be rather uninvolving. OTOH - Room with A View, Lullaby, Sleep Tight, Forgiving, Loyalty, Benediction, Darla, Dear Boy, The Prodigal, Five BY Five and Sancturary blew me away. I also love the Sonmabulist (where Penn is introduced).

I also realized in Season 6/Season 3 Ats that the two shows were echoing each other's themes. Showing two different ways of looking at things. Seeing the father/son dynamic
on Angel echo the big sister/little sister dynamic on Buffy became actually fascinating. Just as it did seeing the vengeance arcs on both shows. Also the two vampires Angel and Spike are very interesting in how they compare and contrast (if you have the ability to do it objectively and few of us do).

The other thing that fascinates me is where the posters fall on the two shows. People who tend to like Spike and
Willow tend to dislike Angel and Cordy and vice versa.
Not everyone of course...but the most vocal seem to show this tendency. I've seen countless posts where one character is used to destroy another. (This usually causes me to stop taking the poster seriously...and is something I try really hard not to do myself.)This tendency almost makes me want to ask personal questions about some of the posters. Because I honestly think that some of these characters have taken root in our hearts and imaginations in ways Joss Whedon never intended.

Unlike most shows on television - I've noticed that Ats and Btvs elicit emotional and at times gut responses from their viewers. Ask yourself - how many times have you wanted to scream at the computer when you see a post that either bashes or discusses you favorite character and/or episode in a derogatory manner? I know I have felt this way quite a bit this year. When did this happen? I used to watch Btvs like every other tv show, dispassionately, now... I find myself struggling to maintain calm when I see a post that is derogatory about Spike or Buffy or Willow or Btvs? LOL! For me Btvs elicits this response. Ats - I'm still safe on, no guttural emotional knee-jerk reactions, so far. Although this may change once I finish watching all those Ats episodes. ;-)

So is it possible to explain why we love one show more than another or love both...when the reasons are so tied up with our personal makeup that to do so would reveal far more about ourselves than may be suitable for a public board such as this one? Or is discussing the issue a bit like explaining why you think a grapefruit is better than an orange?

Gee hope this ramble made sense. Been giving the board a break from my rambling nonsense for past two days, for just this reason. ;-)

[> [> [> but I like your rambles! -- ponygirl, 13:29:15 07/25/02 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Agree..except isn't this comparing grapefruits to oranges -- aliera, 13:47:52 07/25/02 Thu

Missed you and your interesting rambles. Regarding the revealing of self, you know that I think people are revealed through their posts...will ye nil ye. Although we all have different risk levels, styles and reasons we frequent the board and so you see in the posting.

I wasn't as enthralled with Angel's character as many others were; but I did watch most of season one and two. This year I'm not sure why I was more infrequent; life interfering, perhaps. And you know that I watched Bargaining through Normal again in a solid block in the spring after a break from the show. This, and other factors colored my perception of the season.

I've come to believe that it's better to be watching both in terms of fully appreciating what they're doing with the arcs and I plan to do that again next season. For me although I enjoy Angel it doesn't resonate in the way Buffy does. I don't know why and that's not about not revealing, but simply about not knowing.

I think I feel most connected to Buffy although my personality is probably closer to Willow (not dark Willow I hasten to add) and that's most likely why it's Buffy for me then Angel. And that's in spite of some of my struggles with season 6. Like Masq it didn't recapture my twenties and like some others, it dealt with issues that were difficult for me.

For Buffy, I also saw quite a difference in the way that they shot season six but since I don't know much about production I couldn't tell you why. I noticed in particular a change in the way the shots were framed, a difference in the style and size of the sets (for example the socioeconomics of her house were much different, the use of light and dark. All in keeping with the other changes they were making in the show. The entire atmosphere shifted.

Glad you're back!

[> [> [> One possible difference-- Angel is the fulcrum, not the lever? -- OnM, 07:35:46 07/26/02 Fri

In reading several responses so far, it suddenly occurs to me one difference between the two shows that
may also play a part in how we perceive and analyze them.

In BtVS, there is no question that Buffy is the driving force behind all that happens. I even posted a short
bit earlier this week about how Buffy tends to start other people (or even demons) on a path towards
greater involvement in making the world a better place. Buffy, I think without question, is a 'leader' or
'spirit guide' or otherwise an 'alpha female'.

Angel, OTOH, seems to be not so much a leader, as a player in a cosmic drama around which events
unfurl. Think about who is 'in charge' during the three seasons. Is it Angel, as we might initially assume?
Hey, he is the title character, but does that mean he's the 'alpha male' in the Buffy mode? I don't think so.

As to who is in charge at any given time, that can change. One time it may be Angel, but most times it's
Cordy, or Wesley, or Lorne, or Gunn, or even some of the villains, such as Lindsey or Holling, or even
indeterminates like Skip.

Thematically, this might make sense to have Angel serve as a 'fulcrum' rather than a lever (Buffy). Angel's
path to redemption may entail having to surrender the position of leadership and instead act to provide a
means for others around him to assume that position.

This makes for a very different, and very unconventional way to tell what on the surface appears to be a
standard 'hero's journey'.

BTW, furthering this idea will now be the fact that there are two vampires with a soul. Just who are the
'prophesies' speaking about, Angel or Spike?

And does anyone else happen to think that Wesley may be on to something that justified his attempts to get
Conner out of Dodge, that may have to do with prophesy and now-souled-Spike? I recall seeming to be in
the distinct minority in my support of Wesley's decision back then, and so I'm wondering if anyone else has since
put together a possible connection between Spike and Wesley and the events of late S3 Angel?

Off to work... bye for now!

[> [> [> [> Great point! -- matching mole, 09:26:33 07/26/02 Fri

I tried to express something like this but not nearly so eloquently a few months ago. I called Angel the uncharacter which unfortunately I think came across as more uncomplimentary than is justified. For me AtS isn't really about Angel's destiny as a champion - if that was the case I wouldn't really be all that interested in the show. Instead, and what seems far more interesting to me, it seems to be about how this 'destiny' is like the eye of a hurricane, stirring up everything around it. In fact the show seems to constantly subvert the ideas of destiny and prophecy. The terms are used all the time but nothing ever goes the way anyone plans it and nothing ever really gets resolved.

OnM's post higher up also makes an interesting point. I agree that the best BtVS episodes, as individual episodes, are better than any individual episodes on AtS (and let my echo Rob's appreciation of your appreciation of 'Anne' which I think is the best season-opening episode). For me I think this relates to the different strengths of the two shows (since the start of AtS). In my humble opinion the twists and turns on AtS are what make the show so great. The cumulative effect of the episodes rather than individual ones are what draw me in and on.

In contrast BtVS is a much more obviously structured show with clear seasonal stories. BtVS excelled at stand alone episodes (up through the end of S4 IMHO) and at seasonal stories. While the results of a seasonal story obviously carry on for years to come there are clear starting and stopping points. This leads to memorable individual episodes in a way that AtS doesn't lend itself.

I would have to agree that BtVS is better at characterization in that all the regulars and semi-regulars seem to get attention from the writers to make them quite interesting. The main disappointment of S3 AtS (for me) was the neglect of Lorne, Gunn, and Fred - all of whom seemed potentially really interesting when introduced but have been allowed to languish. As discussed a while back what it means to 'like' a character can mean a lot of different things. Different characters appeal to me in so many different ways that I can't really compare them.

Finally I think that Joss' comment about the two shows that Shadowkat mentioned is interesting. I assume it irritated her because he referred to BtVS as being like a soap opera. Although it is clearly not a soap opera I can see the increase in soap operatic trappings on the show with time. Similarly I find the idea of AtS as an epic kind of irritating because it is the subversion of the epic in it that I find so appealing. Perhaps the way to think of BtVS and AtS is as a soap opera and an epic that subvert their genres to make points that are completely antithetical to the standard ones. It seems obvious that finding happiness through romance is definitely not the message of BtVS. Perhaps achieving your destined role as a 'champion' is definitely not the message of Angel as well?

[> [> [> [> [> Ooh good points on both! -- shadowkat, 09:35:07 07/26/02 Fri

"Finally I think that Joss' comment about the two shows that Shadowkat mentioned is interesting. I assume it irritated her because he referred to BtVS as being like a soap opera. Although it is clearly not a soap opera I can see the increase in soap operatic trappings on the show with time. Similarly I find the idea of AtS as an epic kind of irritating because it is the subversion of the epic in it that I find so appealing. Perhaps the way to think of BtVS and AtS is as a soap opera and an epic that subvert their genres to make points that are completely antithetical to the standard ones. It seems obvious that finding happiness through romance is definitely not the message of BtVS. Perhaps achieving your destined role as a 'champion' is definitely not the message of Angel as well?"

Yes that's what irked me, the soap opera comparison, mostly because it's considered so derogatory. And the epic one.
I think you're right, they are subverting them, flipping both on their head. That's exactly why I've become so obsessed. Showing that the way to happiness or to redemption isn't necessarily what we think.

Good points. Hadn't thought of that and do agree.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: good points on both on all! -- aliera, 11:07:56 07/26/02 Fri

And by redefining 'champion' and 'lovers' we are more likely to redefine other stereotypes both within and after the show. Joss also said early on that he hoped that Buffy would become mythic. I don't belive he meant that in the sense that we typically define myths; but in the sense that his heroine and heros would redefine those and other concepts and affect people beyond the show.

In a certain sense we take the shows with us when the set is off. We do this with books and other things; but TV is a different experience and now, as home TV viewing becomes more like theatre experience has even greater potential influence.

Heinz Insu Fenkl wrote an interesting article that likened the TV viewing experience to aboriginal 'dreamtime' and made a case thereby for the deeper and long term effects of the what we absorb from this media.

It's on my mind again because of the Tara quotes. There's always a number of posts when people become disheartened over the course a show takes, the actions of a favorite character or in this case the death of one. And they run along the lines of if it's disturbing turn it of and watch something else.

Which I don't entirely disagree with. However, people do see pieces of themselves in the characters and do become affected by the show. These shows with the use and oversetting of not just stereotypes but perhaps archetypes seem to affect us on a deeper level.

OnM I liked your point about Buffy as a catalyst; it reminded me of wondering again if the vampires are drawn to the slayers in some way. And MM the point about character development was well taken. BTVS has suffered somewhat from that also (in spite of it being a strength). Very difficult to strongly emphasize certain characters without it being at the expense of others.

SK another essay? I wondered if your absence might not be due to writing. :-)

[> [> [> [> You aren't alone here OM...been wondering the same -- shadowkat, 09:29:46 07/26/02 Fri

Taking break from work and my latest essay... to respond.

After rewatching City of up to Five by Five - I tend to agree with you. Angel does not strike me as either in control, leading the troops, or an alpha male. This show is very differently structured. Unlike Buffy, Angel is not certain of himself or his journey at all. (Well unlike Buffy prior to Season 6. Now Buffy's less certain - except for one thing - Buffy knows she's good, she knows that her job is vampire slayer, raise Dawn and keep moral path, and she really isn't worrying so much about redemption. Her path is far clearer as are ours.) Angel is cursed. He did NOT choose a soul. Angelus never chose redemption. Angel with a soul is trying for it. Will he get it? From the past six episodes of Season 1, and all of Season 3 - not sure it matters. I think the story is more about how all the others deal with their world and the murkiness of our moral choices. Very ambitious story to try and pull off.

"BTW, furthering this idea will now be the fact that there are two vampires with a soul. Just who are the
'prophesies' speaking about, Angel or Spike?

And does anyone else happen to think that Wesley may be on to something that justified his attempts to get
Conner out of Dodge, that may have to do with prophesy and now-souled-Spike? I recall seeming to be in
the distinct minority in my support of Wesley's decision back then, and so I'm wondering if anyone else has since
put together a possible connection between Spike and Wesley and the events of late S3 Angel?"

Been wondering much the same thing in the back of my brain, the reason I started taping Angel and wanted to see those old episodes again. The mirror effect of the last episode of Angel and the last episode of Buffy hit me as interesting.

Spike gets a soul in a cave. Angel is sent to the watery Grave. Lilah tell Wesely - "interesting Angel has gained a soul and you're in danger of losing yours". Buffy worries about Willow - "we don't want to lose you" - or "Willow's in danger of losing her soul" - while ironically enough,
Spike is gaining his. Nice touch having Willow and Wesley echo each other, considering two actors are dating.

Also Buffy crawls from the Grave and Xander saves the Day.
Cordelia is sent to heaven? Or so we presume. Makes me think of Buffy getting out of Grave. Or Cordy becomes half demon and Anya goes back to being demon?

Anyway back to your point. Unlike everyone else on the boards, I really didn't blame Wes for taking Connor. I also have always wondered but the truth of those prophecies.
Wouldn't it be interesting if Angel really wasn't the object of the prophecy after all? What if there was a sentence that had been altered or left out - like in Connor's prophecy or that whole prophecy about Angel killing Connor?? What if what was left out is that "the vampire in question has to choose the soul to begin with, it can't be a curse?" And what if the prophecy about Connor is Angel's true prophecy - and Angel is still a threat to Connor and may kill him before Connor saves the world? Maybe sending Angel to that watery grave is what frees Angelus and puts Connor in danger? Maybe what saves
Connor will be the other vampire with the soul?

Or whoa, this just occurred to me after reading your post again: "I'm wondering if anyone else has since
put together a possible connection between Spike and Wesley and the events of late S3 Angel?" What if - the Lurker demon took Angel's soul and gave it to Spike?? Being sent to the watery grave and Spike getting a soul happened at the same time? No, then we'd end up with another Angel. Dismiss that.

Oh the possibilities are endless. But I do know one thing, which is what I love about these shows, they love to mislead us with their prophecies and canons. They love to tell us that it's cream when it's really skim milk masquerading as cream.

Can't wait to see what they do next. And like you Om - I am remaining unspoiled for both Ats and Btvs this year.

So hopefully they don't disappoint.

Okay end of ramble number two and back to work and essay...and possibly lunch...bye.

[> Watch both. Love both. About AtS.... -- cjl, 07:41:53 07/25/02 Thu

Even though I thought Angel didn't quite measure up to the mother series in season 1, I kept watching because I trusted Joss and remembered that Buffy S1 had some rough spots, as well. I was totally spoiled regarding Doyle's demise, and that episode ("Hero") remains a great disappointment to me (with the exception of Cordy and the videotape).

I agree with some posters on another board who said that either Wes should have come in earlier, or Doyle should have died later, so we could have a transition period. Regardless, Wes was solid comic relief for a few eps--and then things got very interesting in "I've Got You Under My Skin." At that point we realized that Wes had a ton a potential under that buffoonish exterior, and the series really took off.

With the Darla plotline in Season 2, the series gathered steam, and when it hit the apex with "Reprise," I felt (for the first time) that it was the equal of BtVS.

Agree with OnM that Season 3 was wildly inconsistent. Gunn/Fred romance is a snooze, and the love thang has neutralized both characters. I have no clue what the hell they're doing with Cordy. What's bad is, Charisma Carpenter doesn't seem to have a clue either. Alexis Denisof officially took over the show with "Loyalty," and he's mesmerizing every time he comes on screen. The Holtz plotline ended anticlimactically, but I still can't wait for Season 4. Dark Wes? Angelus? The fall of St. Cordy? Lorne in Vegas? Bring it on!

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Lyonors, 08:18:13 07/25/02 Thu

Okay, I will be honest with y'all. I started with Buffy first...who hasnt?! anywhoo...as a late-comer to the whole Whedonverse, its kinda hard to catch up on Angel--lack of syndication and all...but thanks to our friendly neighborhood philosopher Masq, I have been able to start with the catch up. I am now midway through season 2, and the rabbid(sp?) fan in me is starting to develop. I would say that I love them both, because for me, they can't be separated.

Ly.

[> Re: Angel the series - Do you or don't you? -- Etrangere, 15:29:23 07/25/02 Thu

Finally caugh back this thread...

well Angel. It's an okay show, yes I like. Can't say i love it as much as Buffy. I don't think it's only characters, there's characters I love in Angel too (and anyway i didn't use to like much the main character in BtVS too either before S6)

It's not either a question of darkness or maturity IMO. I love when it's dark themed :) (ok, maybe it IS a question of maturity, i wouldn't know :)

There's also very good episodes in Angel. I absolutly love 5x5 and Sanctuary, Are you now or have you ever been, guise will be guise and the shroud of ..., yup. (Haven't watched yet much of S3. Not my fault, it's French distribution.)

But there's only that. There's good episodes, but it's a once in a while thing. I don't find myself interrested in the seasonnal arc like with Buffy. Is there even seasonnal arc ? The rythm is different, and for me, it doesn't work as good. It's not a much well structures, well warped.

It's still a good show, one i watch with pleasure, but yeah, I prefer Buffy.

[> [> Angel/Buffy Seasonal Arcs -- cjl, 08:47:07 07/26/02 Fri

Gotta admit, AtS seasonal arcs have been a bit different for the last two seasons. In AtS Season 1, "To Shanshu in L.A." was the big, dramatic cliffhanger setting up the events of Season 2. But in the last two seasons, the climactic episode of the season seems to have come about long before the finale, and the remaining eps start building up to the next season, so the creative team can hit the ground running.

The Dark Angel arc in Season 2 pretty much peaked with "Reprise," and the season as we knew it pretty much ended when Lindsay bolted Wolfram and Hart. The Pylea four-parter set up some of the themes for Seaason 3. Similarly, the climactic episode of S3 was "Sleep Tight" (concluding Darla's pregnancy/birth of Connor), and the rest of the season was a grand set-up for Season 4 (which is why some viewers felt slightly let down by "Benediction").

Not any better or worse than Buffy's all-in-one-bite seasonal arcs, just different.

Road Trip! **Spoilers for Angel Season 4** -- Arethusa, 09:06:02 07/24/02 Wed

When Lorne moved to Vegas I made a post saying I hoped the gang would make a road trip to see him there. It looks like my fantasy is coming true, according to this site, which I got from slayage.com: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art- main.html?2002-07/23/13.00.tv

So what would you guys like to see happen to the gang in Vegas? (Assuming, of course, that most or all of the gang actually gets back together. A road trip with just Fred and Gunn would be a little dull.)

[> Re: Road Trip! **Spoilers for Angel Season 4** - - Q, 19:06:45 07/24/02 Wed

Any idea when they will be shooting? I would love to go down and catch an eyefull of the Angel cast on the Vegas strip!

Buffy vs Angel. Decide! -- JCC, 11:29:00 07/24/02 Wed

Based on the thread below started by Darby
(There ya go D, some recognition.) Here's
a poll to decide which show the board honestly
prefers:

The Poll

[> Re: Buffy vs Angel. Decide! -- Brian, 11:35:15 07/24/02 Wed

I landed on the Buffy side, but a life without Angel in it would be sadder.

[> Re: Buffy vs Angel. Decide! -- Darby, 12:26:50 07/24/02 Wed

I appreciate it, but I really was just comparing the last season. I have trouble comparing them overall.

No, that's a lie. Overall, I'd have to go with the Dutchess of Buffonia.

[> [> If You'd Have Asked Me A Season Ago... -- AngelVSAngelus, 12:57:43 07/24/02 Wed

Buffy would have won, despite my adoration of the Brood King and his Fang Gang. Six versus Three is a vastly different story for me.

[> [> [> Re: If You'd Have Asked Me A Season Ago... -- Q, 19:05:00 07/24/02 Wed

I'm the opposite! During Angel season one I thought Angel was FAR superior. I still believe Angel season one is FAR superior to Buffy season four. But the last two seasons of Angel have dissapointed me immensely. The overall arc's for both seasons were good ideas, but they dealt with the arc to scarcely, and put tons of stupid "filler" eps in between. I couldn't believe season 2 when they ended the Darsilla arc with a third of the season left and then went to the lamest nightmare in the world, Pylea, for 5 EPISODES! That was insanity. The last two seasons of Angel haven't even COMPARED with the last two of Buffy, IMO!!!

[> [> [> [> Agreeing with Q -- Malandanza, 07:18:38 07/25/02 Thu

I expected AtS to be bad, but started watching it anyway since it was on right after Buffy and Season Four Buffy left me dissatisfied most of the time (I hated The Intiitaive/Adam arc). Season One Angel was better than Season Four Buffy, especially once they killed off Doyle and dropped the Angel-thinks-he's-Batman nonsense. For Season Two Angel, I thought the first part of the season was great (my second favorite scene from Buffy/Angel was when Angel shut the door on the lawyers -- first, of course, was B2 when Buffy ran the sword through Angel after was looked like a last minute save). However, I agree with Q that Pylea was awful. There were some clever moments (like Lorne shaking his head as Angel is carried off to swing the Crebit at the Bach-nal), but overall, there was only about an episode's worth of good material.

I didn't watch Season Three when it was on, but kept up via the shooting scripts and have watched several episodes since summer reruns began. I dislike the baby arc too much to see anything redeeming in this season, and, in spite of some less than subtle moments on BtVS, I did enjoy Season Six. The difference between Season Four and Season Six is extreme -- in Season Four there are a handful of good stand-alone episodes in a mediocre season while in Season Six there are a handful of mediocre stand-alone episodes in a good season. Angel's only saving grace this season was the finale, with Angel sinking into the depths as Cordelia ascended into the heavens, but as far as symbolism goes, I'd say Buffy crawling out of the grave at the end of Season Six is certainly its equal.

[> [> [> [> [> Wow. We Are Inverted -- AngelVSAngelus, 11:02:46 07/25/02 Thu

I liked the image in the finale, but found it otherwise my single disappointment in the entirety of Angel's third season.
Someone want to tell me how I-Was-Raised-In-Another- Dimension Connor skips right to knowing how to use a taser and its affect on dear old dad? Or how he formulated that entire plan of getting Angel to the ocean to be attacked, THEN knew exactly how to use all those power tools, not to mention how he acquired them in the first place... *sigh*
I loved the rest of the season. I love the image of Angel sinking to the depths of the ocean. But I think I've pin pointed all of my problems beginning with the Angel/Cordy relationship arc. I think that was their motivation in making her Ascendant Cordy in the first place...
Despite all of this, I didn't feel violated by the end of Angel's season. I can't say the same about Buffy. It seems like I was watching my beloved characters, and beloved story for that matter, through the warped glass of an amusement park mirror. They wanted to show me the self-absorption and grave mistakes of the gang, and what they did instead was make it damn near impossible for them to be redeemed to this viewer. My opinion of the faults with this season of the Buffster and others' have been discussed ad nauseum, so I'll stop there.

[> Disenfranchised -- Rahael, 15:55:35 07/24/02 Wed

There's no option for the vote I want to make. I'm not undecided. I like both shows. Both are intelligent, gripping, insightful shows that mean a whole lot to me. I love Cordy, my favourite character. I love Wes and Angel. I like Gunn and Fred. I adore Buffy, love Giles and Anya, interested in Willow and Xander. I think there are loads of great writers on both shows, whom I appreciate. Joss, of course, and Tim Minnear, Stephen de Knight, Rebecca Kirchner, and many many more.

What exactly are we deciding on here? what show we prefer? Some of us may strongly prefer one show, but for those who are completely doolally about both of them? I'm sorry but 'undecided' doesn't cut it for me!

Also, will this poll result matter? If Buffy wins, will it get trotted out? "75% of this board don't want to discuss Angel!" or something? Is the result binding in any way?

And by good 18th Century principles, the best voters are informed voters - is there anyway to restrict voting to people who actually *watch* both shows?

I guess I'll have to take the apathetic voter line - no candidate to vote for, so not going to vote.

Yours,

pedantically,

Rahael

[> [> You go, Rah! Great points all -- Masq, 15:59:43 07/24/02 Wed

Especially that one about people who don't watch both shows shouldn't vote.

Reminds of those posts that start with "I don't actually watch 'Angel', but I'll tell you why I don't like it anyway".

[> [> [> Re: You go, Rah! Great points all -- aliera, 17:49:55 07/24/02 Wed

Pedantic - Now there's a great word for which the connotative meaning is also adrift from the dictionary definition! And oddly, a word that I've been thinking about today, although (hastening to add) not in reference to anyone's posts except in the definative way.

And Masq, I especially liked your post challenging us to watch for the metaphor in Angel. I'll be honest and say I was an infrequent viewer this year, but had already intended to be more faithful next season because of the connections between the two shows. Seems important to at least be aware of both storylines.

[> [> [> [> perfect pedantic button -- anom, 20:06:18 07/24/02 Wed

Aliera wrote: "Pedantic - Now there's a great word for which the connotative meaning is also adrift from the dictionary definition!"

The button says: "I'm not pompous, I'm pedantic. There's a difference." A difference perfectly illustrated by that statement. Love them self-referential buttons!

[> [> Re: Disenfranchised -- Wizardman, 00:48:58 07/25/02 Thu

Amen, Rahael! Both shows are intelligently written- most of the time-, both are beautifully acted- most of the time-, both feature very sexy people- very, very sexy people... Okay, I'm back now. My point is that we shouldn't compare the two. Each has its respective srengths and weaknesses- even I can see that. They complement each other very well! Now if we could just get a crossover...

[> Re: Rah's response -- JCC, 07:21:47 07/25/02 Thu

This poll isn't designed to change what we discuss on the board. It dosen't have some great plan. It's just a little bit fun to find out what people prefer.

Right now, its gotten 62 votes and it's preety close.
Buffy 48%
Angel 42%
Undecided 10%

Great Article with an anti-Emmy rant due to OMWF snub...No spoilers -- Rob, 12:55:25 07/24/02 Wed

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/entertainment/television/3714 159.htm

Tue, Jul. 23, 2002

Something's fangtastically wrong in Emmyland
BY CONNIE OGLE
cogle@herald.com

Say it loud, once more, with feeling: Buffy was robbed.

Oh, I know. Who cares, really, about the Emmy Awards? The same shows always seem to be nominated; seems like the same ones win. And Russell Crowe is never going to attend the ceremonies and glower threateningly, so why even watch?

Still, when people in the industry choose the best of TV, you'd think they'd at least spare a couple of real nominations for the single best show of the year. Especially this time, when voters boldly stopped going through the motions and favored innovative newcomers such as Six Feet Under, 24 and The Shield instead of merely dredging up ER and Dennis Franz (no disrespect to Dennis. Loved him in the Goodbye Earl video).

HEARTBREAKER

And yet the most astonishing, entertaining hour (hour plus, actually) of TV in the past year slips by virtually unnoticed. Nothing here is real; nothing here is right. Buffy the Vampire Slayer's musical episode, Once More, With Feeling, registers a paltry outstanding music direction nomination. Nice for the musical directors. A stake through the aspirations of writer/director Joss Whedon, the beating creative heart of Buffy, the only TV writer brave and clever enough to use horror as one great big wonderful metaphor for growing up.

Whedon, who learned to read music and play the piano just so he could write a musical episode, has been snubbed before. This year UPN tried to help. The network sent out DVDs of Once More, With Feeling to Variety subscribers (you can now find 'em on eBay for upward of $100). Didn't help. In a weird twist Whedon was left off the ballot; he was supposed to be a selection in the dramatic writing category. The Academy of Television Arts and Sciences assured everyone they sent out supplemental ballots immediately. Sorry, we forgot. And the check's in the mail, too.

TALENT APLENTY

Buffy could have been nominated in other categories. Jennifer Garner from new series Alias instead of Sarah Michelle Gellar as best actress? After six years of being Buffy, Gellar keeps getting better. And the supporting actor category surely could have spared one of The West Wing's four spots to Buffy's sparring partner James Marsters, who as the vampire Spike has become the glue that holds the show together.

But Once More, With Feeling is something special. It's not just an episode with cool tunes. The plot sandwiches nicely in the middle of Buffy's sixth season. Everything that happened in the season led up to it; everything that happened afterward stemmed from it. Buffy slays vamps while she sings (speaking of brave, Gellar deserves a nomination just for having the guts to sing her own part). Spike rocks out on top of a coffin. The songs are better and far more clever than most of the ones you'll hear on Broadway these days.

And yet these Emmy boneheads don't even bother to nominate this genre-rattling episode in the music and lyrics category, although Family Guy, The Simpsons and Judging Amy somehow made the cut. Something is terribly wrong here.

I've got a theory: that title is what's standing in the way of Buffy Emmys. Emmy voters think "teen show" and pencil in the more grown-up The West Wing. There's also the whole problem of whether Buffy is a comedy or a drama. It's both; it defies easy classification and rewards longtime, passionate viewing in a way no other series does and thus earns rabid devotion in return (if you think I'm mad, you oughta see the outrage on the Buffy bulletin boards).

SOMETHING SPECIAL

Look, Sex and the City is hilarious, and Michael Chiklis kicks serious butt on The Shield. But Once More, With Feeling is TV of a different sort, something that comes along once in a lifetime and should not be buried but celebrated and rewarded.

Whedon and Co. are taking the high road, probably parroting Buffy's lines: "It's all right if some things come out wrong/we'll sing a happy song, and you can sing along." But Buffy fans don't have to be so well mannered. We can take out our metaphorical crossbows and fire at will on minds too narrow to see beyond a playful title. Until Whedon gets recognition for his genius, we will not rest in peace.

[> Gimme an AMEN!!! -- Wizardman, 00:34:16 07/25/02 Thu

[> AMEN! -- Dichotomy, 05:29:48 07/25/02 Thu

[> Now I'm really P' O'd... -- Darby, 08:11:44 07/25/02 Thu

My wife loves The West Wing, and I like it too, although it was spotty this year. Anyway, we watch it and tape it to rewatch later. We just got back around to the season finale, which was pretty much the worst episode of the season, with a nonsensical subplot involving Lily Tomlin and an incredibly cliched plot (as cliched as the Dead & Evil Lesbians, but that's another issue) involving Mark Harmon as the good guy with the Little Brother who got tragically and stupidly killed just when everything seemed okay (good thing the ep was set in New York, 'cause you could see the pay-off comin' up Broadway!), and this episode (I don't know the ep names like I do B & A, so I didn't realize this until the title came up on tape) is up for a writing Emmy, while OMWF was skunked! Insert various expletives here!

And don't get me going about how Judging Amy got a song (not a theme, not a score, but a song) nominated, as did King of the Hill, but Buffy didn't! And the "musical episode" of That 70's Show got a nomination!!??!!

I apologize that I didn't post a link to the full nominations list on Emmy morning, but it was just too depressing to consider.

[> That's it. I'm writing them an angry letter. -- Caesar Augustus, 19:48:57 07/25/02 Thu

The Scoobies' Fault -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:37:01 07/24/02 Wed

Man, the forces of darkness must be loving it. This season, not only has the Scooby Gang done very little monster slaying, but the monsters they have fought have usually been their fault in the first place.

Afterlife - That demon wouldn't have existed if Buffy hadn't been brought back from the dead.

Life Serial - The Trio was focused solely on Buffy. Without her around, they wouldn't have bothered with all that stuff.

Once More With Feeling - Xander is responsible for summoning Sweet, and he didn't actually die, so there's nothing to stop him from being summoned again.

Tabula Rasa - Loan Shark and his vampires were focused on Spike, they wouldn't have been a problem if not for Spike's debt of 40 kittens.

Smashed & Wrecked - The only monster was one briefly created by Willow while on a magic high.

Dead Things - Fuzzy Time demons were only there to confuse Buffy. Again, without her, the Trio wouldn't have bothered.

Older and Far Away - Halfrek wouldn't be there if not for the A/X wedding, and wouldn't have trapped them in the house if not for Dawn.

As You Were - Spike was the one who go the demon eggs sent through whatever connections he has.

Hell's Bells - No Anya, no Stewert Burns monster.

Normal Again - Same as Life Serial and Dead Things, no Buffy, no reason for the Trio to be summoning monsters.

Entropy - Anya becomes vengeance demon

Seeing Red - If Buffy hadn't killed those two vampires in Entropy, they wouldn't have dropped the disc Warren needed to get superstrength.

Villains, Two to Go, and Grave - Willow was the Big Bad of these episodes.

Anyone else see something very wrong with this? The only monsters the Scooby Gang has fought that weren't their fault to begin with have been a few, standard vampires, the Hellions from Bargaining, the Trio of Nerds (who weren't really much of a threat to public safety), the vampire "rebels" from All the Way, the Doublemeat Palace Lady, and the sword demon from Older and Far Away.

This adds up to six supernatural threats (if you count the Nerds) that the Scooby Gang defeated that weren't there because of them in the first place. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for the demon bikers from Bargaining, I'd say that Sunnydale would have been better off without the Scoobies this year. Certainly, the demonic forces on the Hellmouth have been able to coast by easily in Season 6.

But maybe this was intentional. Maybe we'll find out next year that the Forces of Evil have been laying low so that they can be in full shape come Season 7. I hope so, anyway.

[> Fits in perfectly with the SG "fighting their own inner demons" theme of S6. -- Rob, 21:52:31 07/24/02 Wed

[> Re: The Scoobies' Fault -- Wizardman, 00:31:40 07/25/02 Thu

That's something I've been wondering about. Big Bads going at it seems more likely to happen in AtS than BtVS, but does anyone care to wonder about how the Trio would have dealt with the Master, Angelus & Dru & Spike, Faith & the Mayor, Adam, or Ben/Glory? The Trio would have died painfully... I don't know if you've seen any spoilers for S7, Finn Mac Cool, but I will say that from what I've heard, you're hopes will probably be realized- and then some! I hope that's vague enough. If it's not- sorry, my bad =(

[> Nemesis... or was it nemesises -- ponygirl, 07:47:33 07/25/02 Thu

As Rob says above it all fits in with the season's theme. The Scoobies have been guilty of paying too much attention to themselves this year. Granted they have a lot of problems, but their focus has been entirely turned inwards. It's why Warren was such a perfect instrument of karmic retribution-- the ignored and forgotten nerd, the threat that no one ever took seriously. Even after Katrina's death the Scoobies never really brought their full focus on him. Even poor Tara is guilty of this, in Seeing Red the research is clearly secondary to snuggle time. I thought a large part of Willow's vengenance was guilt on her part, there were so many chances to have prevented what happened. As the quote from Death of A Salesman goes, "Attention must be paid". The Scoobies were just paying attention to the wrong things.

[> [> Re: Nemesis... or was it nemesises -- Rahael, 08:58:28 07/25/02 Thu

My take on this issue is that the demons were never unconnected to the Scoobies.

It's just this year, it's been made more explicit than ever.

The whole demon world thing was always much more interesting and wonderful to me viewed not as a separate world, but a sinister mirror world, connected in some intimate way to the minds of our heroes.

[> [> [> Re: Nemesis... or was it nemesises -- ponygirl, 09:28:40 07/25/02 Thu

Totally agree. This is why I'm dying for the Ripper series to start up. It seems so fitting that the monsters of adolescents and young adults would be demons and vampires -- sex and a hundred other scary new emotions made manifest. The things that would confront Giles on his own would be quite different I imagine. Lots of ghosts, the regrets of middle-age.

[> [> [> [> Oooh... nice thoughts, ponygirl -- auroramama, 20:56:57 07/25/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Nemesis... or was it nemesises -- skeeve, 08:09:30 07/26/02 Fri

My recollection is that nemesises is correct. Nemesiseses reminded me of Granny Weatherwax. She knew how to spell banana, but didn't know how to stop spelling bananana.

[> [> [> Re: or was it nemesises...nope, it's nemeses -- LittleBit, 08:16:01 07/26/02 Fri

The problem with Anyanka II -- cjl, 08:15:34 07/25/02 Thu

It was made clear by the end of Entropy that Anyanka II is a different creature from Anyanka I. Two years with Xander and the Scoobs (and that horror show of a wedding day) have taught her a few things about love and empathy, and the joy of vengeance isn't what it used to be.

But a lot of questions remain: when Spike said "I wish," with the intent of harming Xander, wasn't Anyanka obliged to go with it, and grant whatever torture he wanted to inflict? (Just because Anya's thirst for vengeance was satisfied by the Spanya action, doesn't necessarily mean Spike's was, too.) Isn't that part of the vengeance demon codebook? Or does a vengeance demon have more latitude with these things than we previously thought?

The big one--does Anyanka II have a soul? She certainly appears to have empathy (even love?) for Giles, she intervenes to save Jonathan and Andrew, and she stays behind in the Magic Box to chant the protection spell. The actions of a caring...human being? The question gets sticky, because if D'Hoffryn's demonization process doesn't necessarily wipe out the soul, there goes Anya's excuse for her FIRST go 'round as a vengeance demon. If Anyanka I wreaked her vengeance for 1100 years as a soul-less creature, we might not blame Anya for the carnage. But if Anyanka did all that just because she was pissed off at the world in general, and men in particular...well, I don't know.

Think about Cordelia's demonization in AtS Season 3. What if, instead of turning into St. Cordy, the powers amplified her Queen C tendencies, and she abused her abilities in Anyanka-like fashion? What would the Fang Gang do? Kill her? Try to remove her powers? Buffy, Xander, and the rest of Scoobies may have to confront this dilemma in Season 7. If Anyanka II wants to quit the business, and D'Hoffryn's holding her to her contract, we might have a battle with the demons of the Lower Orders. And if Anyanka II starts to get back in the swing of maiming and mutilating again....

As I said. Sticky.

[> Re: The problem with Anyanka II -- Rob, 08:34:52 07/25/02 Thu

I think it's all part of the greying of the rules, as evidenced with Spike pre-soulage. Anyanka I was truly cruel and uncaring, but she perhaps was changed more than she'd like to admit by Xander and her time with the SG. We do know much about her pre-demony life, but, by this theory, she probably did not have as many friends or as rewarding a life that Xander and his friends provided her.

I guess this is the "soul-as-conscience-only" theory. If she's unsouled now, as a demon, she has the instinctual desire to do evil, but her "human" feelings are beating them out. Same reasoning behind Clem being so darn nice (possible kitten-eatage notwithstanding)...Doesn't have a soul, but can't help being nice. I think what it boils down to is that Anyanka Version 1.0 really did want to wreak veangance, but Anyanka Version 2.0 doesn't have that drive and, from the start, was fooling herself. Personally I don't think this Anyanka will ever get back to the full demony swing of things. Especially after having so recently been confronted by some of the consequences of her actions--one could say that she was punished for her 1.0 actions by having Xander leave her at the alter; and she was literally confronted by one of the men she had harmed so many years ago. I think the thing is that the first time Anyanka didn't think her actions were wrong; this time, despite herself, she does.

And it may not be so sticky a situation to get out of...Take the amulet off, smash it against the wall...and oops! No more demon! She may have trouble convincing D'Hoffryn to give her a third go-round if she changes her mind again, though. ;o)

Rob

[> [> Re: The problem with Anyanka II -- Rahael, 08:44:05 07/25/02 Thu

I think the writers had a very different character in mind when Anyanka first appeared. Then when they reintroduced her as a demon turned girl who fancied Xander, she exhibited a touching humanity, which just grew as the seasons progressed. Which they had to - the first Anyanka was chillingly scary, especially when Giles first confronted her.

But I suppose the very fact she was human, mortal and frail started to work on her. She did find herself having all sorts of strange feelings for boys her age, and flunking maths to boot!

[> [> Oh no, not again (the soul canon) -- cjl, 09:26:28 07/25/02 Thu

Interesting Rob (and by the way, thanx for the pix), but once again, we bump into the soul canon on the way to clarity. If Anyanka II really does have a "soul-as- conscience-only," we're left with the possibility that the humanity she re-learned during her time with Xander and the Scoobs could lead to (let's say it all together folks)....

REDEMPTION WITHOUT A SOUL.

If Joss simply wouldn't allow this with Spike, why should it happen with Anya? If Anyanka II is Season 6 Spike without the chip (soul-less demon with pesky human feelings), then Spike's whole roundalay with the Lurker Demon and the tests becomes pointless. (I kinda thought they were pointless anyway, but that's another thread...) Maybe I'm aggravating myself for nothing, but this still bothers me.

[> [> [> A Different Metaphor -- Just George, 12:06:46 07/25/02 Thu

I don't think ME has made the existence or lack of a soul the important question for Anya. Metaphysically, ME can get away with this; I don't know of any canonical discussion covering demons and souls. Especially humans turned into demons turned into humans turned back into demons and their souls.

I think the metaphor in Anya's case concerns her acceptance of demonic powers to avoid her human problems. Anya became a demon willingly the first time after being betrayed by Olaf. We assumes that Anya loved Olaf and the sting of his betrayal drover her to this drastic step. By becoming a vengeance demon, Anya no longer had to worry about human problems like falling in love or getting hurt ever again.

Anya lost her powers 1100 years later because Giles was clever. Anya did not choose to rejoin the human race because being a vengeance demon had taught her anything. She tried initially several different methods to regain her demon status and again avoid her human problems. Only after she repeatedly failed to regain her powers did Anya grudgingly accept being human.

However, Anya's three years with Xander and the Scooby Gang changed her. She grew back into her role as a human being. While she missed having her powers when she felt momentarily abandon by Xander, she didn't actively try to regain them. Ultimately Xander's love and the Scoobies acceptance provided a foundation for her rocky transition. Anya became a "useful member of society" and learned to love again.

However, love made Anya vulnerable. Xander hurt Anya to the quick when he backed out of the wedding and left her to inform the guests. Devastated by Xander's betrayal, she retreated back into begin a Vengeance demon again.

But, so far, Anya has not been very good at being a vengeance demon. She hasn't successfully used her wish powers to hurt anyone, though the situation has come up at least twice. Anya interrupted the wronged woman in the bar multiple times before she could ill wish her ex. And though Anya unintentionally hurt Xander by sleeping with Spike, she didn't do it hurt Xander. She slept with Spike to make herself feel better. But when Spike began an ill wish against Xander, Anya stopped him. From her comments in Two To Go, that may have been her last chance to "officially" use her magic powers against Xander.

Anya is still working through her issues. She has regained the mantel of a vengeance demon but has not fully embraced the role. She doesn't know if she wants Xander to live or die. She hasn't been causing "pain and suffering for the pleasure of the lower beings."

Since her change, Anya has been better at acting like a human being than as a vengeance demon. She helps save Jonathan and Andrew instead of acting against them. She does this "for Willow" even though this is acting against Willow's vengeful intentions. She acts heroically to keep up the magical protection spell to slow down Dark Willow. She is affectionate towards Giles.

Anya's big tests will probably come in Season 7. If she returns full force to wreaking bloody vengeance (anything including the terms coagulate probably counts) the Scooby Gang will have to confront her. And if she doesn't, at some point D'Hoffryn will likely confront her. I don't think the world will let her have it both ways and be a "nice" vengeance demon.

When the crunch comes, Anya will have to make the choice between remaining a child (demon) or becoming an adult (human.) Children avoid problems; Adults deal with them. In this way, her decision will be similar to what Spike went through at the end of Season 6. He could either stay an adolescent (soulless) or take a step that will allow him to grow into an adult (gaining a soul.) The decision is similar, but the metaphor for growth is different. Given this, I don’t think ME needs to (or will) bring up the issue of Anya's soul. But I'll bet they will confront the issue of her demon status.

[> [> [> [> One of the most interesting things about Anya, I think, is... (extremely minor and vague S7 spoiler) -- Rob, 12:57:56 07/25/02 Thu

...how she has slowly evolved from basically being someone used to being a demon trapped in a human body, to now being someone used to being a human trapped in a demon body. And most ironically and poetically her human emotions have never been more in the forefront than when we see her again as a demon.

From what Joss says, Anya is going to have a much bigger part next year...and a big ol' plot. Can't wait to see what the future holds for her...and perhaps this soul/no soul issue will be delved into.

Rob

Welcome to the All Things Philosophical on Buffy, Public Enemy #1 Posting Thread -- LB, 08:16:19 07/25/02 Thu

In the ATPoChat the other night the question "can you imagine a board like the ATPo and a Chat like this, only from the vampire/demon point of view?" was raised. Would they talk about Buffy like we talk about Spike? How would they view Angel? Would there be all the same arguments in reverse…?

What sorts of posts would you find there? So we thought we'd see what they might look like…
In the ATPoChat the other night the question "can you imagine a board like the ATPo and a Chat like this, only from the vampire/demon point of view?" was raised. Would they talk about Buffy like we talk about Spike? How would they view Angel? Would there be all the same arguments in reverse…?

What sorts of posts would you find there? So we thought we'd see what they might look like…

[> Is the Chip an Excuse for Turning on His Own Kind? -- LittleBite, 08:19:43 07/25/02 Thu

In the past 3 seasons of BtVS we have been faced with a situation unique to our kind. First of all, the humans developed an organization known as The Initiative, a group dedicated to the torture and mutilation of our kind. The 'scientists' who were in charge of the organization employed specially trained hunters who use all types of gadgets to track down both vampires and demons. I am pleased to say the despite this unfair advantage, far more vampires and demons escaped their snares than are ever caught by them.

When they did capture a vampire, demon or other more evolved life form, what they chose to do is simply heinous. Tests of dubious natures, medical and scientific, were performed to attempt to see how we function. Some of these tests were extraordinarily painful, some were invasive, and some were, well downright amusing. The fools believed they are more intelligent than we are, simply because, since demons were exiled from this world, those of us who do reside here have learned to disguise our intellect. They had a name for us, the Hostile Sub-Terrestrials, as if we were all one homogenous group. It does amuse us, for we have such a great diversity among demon-kind, for very nearly every dimension has at least one indigenous species of demon. It just happens that in this dimension the vampires are the indigenous group, for as the old ones were exiled they created the vampire to carry on the battle for supremacy against the humans.

As part of their unconscionable experimentation, the humans created something they refer to as an 'implant' but is generally just called the 'chip'. They captured one of our warriors, Spike, on his return to the Hellmouth, and decided to make him their premiere experimental victim. The implant was placed into Spike's brain. As far as we have been able to determine, it activated initially when Spike managed to escape from The Initiative's clandestine laboratory, but took time to build up to the point of preventing him from doing violence to a human.

There are many ramifications of this dubious experiment of theirs. For one, it prevents the vampire from simply following his nature, for that nature is to feed upon humans; they are our life-source. The vampiric instincts for survival are prevented from action. In time, if the vampire is not resourceful, he will become emaciated, but still not die, for starvation is not fatal to our kind.

Spike was, if nothing else, resourceful. In an ultimate irony, he sought the help of the Slayer for we all know two things about this Slayer, both of which are unique to her. One, she will not kill a 'helpless creature' no matter what that creature is; and two, she understands the value of information as a bargaining tool. He became part of the periphery of the group, to assure his own survival. He made it quite clear that he was 'helping' them only because he had to, to survive. He was not friends with any of them, and went out of his way to be annoying, as he should. The Slayer's and her friends, however, being human, felt empathy for the poor boy, but none of them could possibly understand what had been done to him. They didn't appreciate the literal sarcasm when Spike says, "Spike had a little trip to the vet… ." He states the case on several levels. One is the obvious dark humor; another that someone purporting to be 'medical' had done something to him. In addition is the layer where he rightly accuses The Initiative of treating him, and the others who were imprisoned with him, as animals; as creatures with less rights than actual animals enjoy.

Something begins to change Spike's behavior. He is placed under the coercive 'my will be done' spell by that fool sunset-haired witch. Then as he is forced to go along with them while they go on their absurd little patrols. He learns that there are still ways he can hurt the humans, with their fragile little egos, and emotions. He can play with their heads quite effectively and in a very satisfying way to watch. He is dragged into a confrontation with Vahrall demons who are very nearly finished with the ritual that will open the Hellmouth. As a result of this confrontation, however, Spike discovers something that will forever affect the way he is viewed by his own kind. Spike learns that the 'chip' which prevents him from harming humans, does that and only that. He remains perfectly capable of harming and killing any other form of life and unlife.

The question is, however, why does he choose to use this ability in the way that he does? He has no hesitation about heading right back out to find some demons or other vampires to fight. He's annoyed that the others don't share his enthusiasm for the hunt. He does this because the chip that was implanted in his brain not only prevents him from following every instinct a vampire has but is also, in his case, causing those instincts for glorious violence and mayhem to be channeled wherever they may go. And the only place they can go is against his own kind. But does Spike not have a choice here? Must he follow this course? Is his only option to join with the Slayer against his own kind?

I say no. Spike was one of the leaders, in the vampire community when he first came to Sunnydale. He took control from the beginning. Why did he not do this again? Why did he not gather others to his side and organize them in the war against the usurping humans? A general does not always have to lead his soldiers into battle. He can give them direction and purpose. With the Slayer resident in this community, the usual modus operandi of the vampire becomes nearly suicidal, but the younger vampires do not realize this. The community needs an experienced vampire in charge, one who can guide and train the young, new ones. Spike could have taken this opportunity. He already knew there were other ways to harm the humans, and got great personal satisfaction out of it. I believe that this need for the personal glory, for the immediate rush of combat is why Spike chooses, and is not forced, to ally himself with the Slayer.

The chip is a catalyst for Spike to make a choice. The choice he made, however, is based on his own flawed character, his own need for instant gratification. The chip is not an excuse for the path he elected to follow.

[> [> (Devil's Advocate) Vampires have never been particularly loyal to their own -- Earl Allison, 08:42:09 07/25/02 Thu

Despite the fact that we (demons in general) hold a rather low opinion of vampires, it has been proven again and again that these sub-demon, sub-human hybrids hold few if any lasting loyalties, and most of those loyalties are bred of sheer force, or in rarer instance, tainted human affection.

Witness the repeated examples of vampires either killing or plotting against their brethren;

The aforementioned Spike killed the Annointed One, the selected successor to the founder of the Order of Aurelius, largely for his own enjoyment.

Spike has also turned on Angelus, largely over the affections of his Sire, Drusilla. He sided with the Slayer, of all potential allies, to do this!

Spike and Angelus allowed one of their own minions, Dalton, to be destroyed by the Judge, largely to test his abilities.

Angelus has destroyed his own Children, such as the "immolate-a-gram" he sent to taunt the Slayer.

Darla abandoned her own Childe, Angelus, to the tender mercies of Holtz in order to lighten the load on their tired mount. She and others did return for him, but Angelus could easily have been destroyed in the meantime.

In the Wishverse, the Master used VampXander as a shield against the Slayer's crossbow bolt.

It is this demon's opinion that vampires will turn on their own if other opponents are lacking, or even out of boredom. Vampires hold no inherent loyalties, not to the greater demonkind, and not to their own.

Take it and run (couldn't come up with a demony take on that)

[> [> [> How DARE you claim to be my advocate!!! -- Beelzebub, 19:51:35 07/25/02 Thu

[> [> Whiney Spike... (sorry to jump in but I couldn't resist) -- ponygoyle, 09:07:12 07/25/02 Thu

I agree with all your points LittleBite, I just find Spike's arc completely frustrating this season. We say him make some really positive steps towards regaining his demon identity early on this year. We see him playing kitten poker, hanging out with other demons again (granted Clem's not the most agressive of guys but it's a start), running up debts with that shark guy (who looks just like a cousin of mine, but that's another post), but then what happens? Buffy again hijacks his story. Once again what should be Spike's journey back to evil turns into it being All About Buffy.

I know he's depressed. I know he's had a hard time with the chip, but he's had years to get over it! Even the tantalizing hope that he might be an international demon egg dealer in AYW is dropped after one episode. And can someone tell me why when those eggs were hatching he didn't just go upstairs and seal Buffy and Capt. Cardboard in the lower level to become teething rings for the hatchlings? Sorry for the rant but I thought I would get this off my wings before the thread turned into another discussion of Buffy's hair.

[> [> [> It Was Alright... But -- AngelVSAngelus, 10:43:27 07/25/02 Thu

It had previously been only a matter of time before he returned to our fold. No matter how hard the fool tried, he would always return to our path. We don't change, not demons. Unless, of course, you do something foolish, like get a soul.
Is this going to happen to many of our kind? We are considered tainted enough as it is just being demons in human flesh! Now we are marked not just by that uncle-tom turncoat Angelus, who's become a mass murderer of us on a grand scale, but our own beloved Spike! Where was Drusilla to disuade him from this course?
We'd all better be quite careful... He may not be as MUCH a threat, not working under the Powers like Angelus, but Spike is of a powerful bloodline and known to be a worthy adversary.

[> [> [> [> Re: It Was Alright... But -- ponygoyle, 11:37:15 07/25/02 Thu

I don't know, I can't help but feel that Joss is a closet damnedinista after all. I mean everyone calls him evil, and he did spend all season showing us just how nasty the poor innocent little humans could be. Maybe giving Spike a soul is just a little twist to fool us. You know like when you tell your prey that they're free to go and then when they're relaxed and inching towards the door -- bam! It's a well- known story-telling/torture device. Wouldn't it be a powerful existential statement for Spike to say, "Yes, I have a soul and now I'm going to kill and maim with greater joy than ever before"? Finally proving that doing evil isn't just some burning, all-consuming compulsion, but a valid choice!

[> [> Re: Is the Chip an Excuse for Turning on His Own Kind? -- yabyumpan, 09:09:37 07/25/02 Thu

I would agree with my brethren, the vampire known as Spike uses the chip as an excuse, but I would take it further. He came back to the the Hellmouth knowing that the Slayer had beaten him on many occasions. He has an unhealthy attachment to the Slayer, in fact I believe that he thinks he loves her. I would venture to say that he is boardering on extreme mental illness and should be dealt with quickly. He is a disgrace to our kind. At least when Angelus was under her influence he had the excuse of a soul and set about destroying her when he was released from that burden.
I am comming to believe that this Slayer is far more dangerous than we thought. I believe she uses majics to make our kind weak with love. Special care should be taken in her precence and eyes should be averted at all times.

[> [> Re: Is the Chip an Excuse for Turning on His Own Kind? -- Buenandanza, 09:28:23 07/25/02 Thu

"In the past 3 seasons of BtVS we have been faced with a situation unique to our kind. First of all, the humans developed an organization known as The Initiative, a group dedicated to the torture and mutilation of our kind."

You speak as though you think torture and mutilation is a bad thing! Who among us has not indulged in a little vivisection over the centuries? What's a little torture among sworn enemies? No, the humans are not to blame for their actions, but their motivations are what worries me. Most of those scientists gained no personal pleasure in their experimentation -- they did it to unravel our secrets, coldly and objectively. And they would just as coldly and objectively exterminate every demon they find.

It was inevitable that such an organization would arise against us (and I'm not just saying this because I come from a fatalistic branch of the demon world). Times have changed -- we can no longer travel where we will, spreading mayhem and destruction. The angry mobs no longer carry torches and pitchforks -- they have flame throwers and machine guns these days. Our survival depends upon remaining hidden. Look at what has happened to the demons and vampires with missions:

The Master -- staked
Spike and Angelus -- neutered
The Judge -- destroyed
Kakistos -- staked
The Mayor -- blown up
Adam -- dismantled
Glory -- murdered

As Mr. Trick was fond of saying, Vengeance Crusades are passe.

As for Spike, he was worse for us as "one of our warriors" than he has been as an agent for good simply because he insisted on attracting so much attention. We cannot hide in the darkness if one of our own insists on being in the spotlight. Additionally, he almost single-handedly destroyed the ancient Order of Aurelius through one foolish decision after another -- and for what? To kill the slayer? We all know the prophecy -- another would take her place. And most likely one without the moral ambiguities of this one -- the one who spares demons who don't attract too much attention. After being chipped, his true nature showed itself as he began hunting his own kind for sport. But what can you expect? He's a vampire, his treacherous human nature will exert itself on occasion.

"Spike was one of the leaders, in the vampire community when he first came to Sunnydale. He took control from the beginning. Why did he not do this again? Why did he not gather others to his side and organize them in the war against the usurping humans? A general does not always have to lead his soldiers into battle. He can give them direction and purpose."

You sound like Adam -- and the last demons that followed Adam ended up in pieces on the hospital floors of the Initiative. But what could a rebellion accomplish? What would the Master or the Mayor have accomplished had their schemes succeeded? Take over Sunnydale? For how long? Until the tanks and soldiers arrive and then this town, this haven from the modern world, would become a mass grave for our kind. No, the last thing our young demons need is direction and a purpose. They must adapt to the new ways and wait patiently for change.

[> [> [> Re: Is the Chip an Excuse for Turning on His Own Kind? -- Arethusa, 10:05:32 07/25/02 Thu

I don't think you should blame human nature for the good done by certain vampires. It's time we all realized the good that exists deep in the hearts of all demonkind. By making excuses for He Who Is Named Way Too Often, we deny the truth-every day demons commit good. We just don't want to see it. By their actions or inactions, demons who commit good do damage to all demonkind, especially our spawn. It infects one generation, then travels on to the next (especially in Los Angeles). It's time to drag the good demons do into the night, where it can be eradicated forever, preferably with a blow-torch.

[> [> [> [> Re: Is the Chip an Excuse for Turning on His Own Kind? -- Caesar Augustus, 16:57:35 07/25/02 Thu

Well, the whole s6 theme was the terrifying 'good within' theme. Spike trying to change for the Slayer! Clem helping Dawn! The menacing Anyanka actually standing in the way of chaos! For the first time ever, the Big Bad of the season wasn't even a demon. Joss really decided to stab us in the hearts with that decision! We saw the good within demons come to the fore, and it disturbed me greatly. I think we all learned a valuable lesson, to be aware that even the greatest demon must be self-aware and quash any impulse for good at the very beginning before it escalates.

As for s7, call me an optimist but I am a redemptionist; I believe Spike will be capable of redemption to the dark side even with his new human soul.

[> [> [> Setting a bad example for the little ones, aren't you? -- Erythro-CathSith, Keeper of the Nest of Derkesthai, 10:56:08 07/25/02 Thu

Buenadanza,
Your maladroit advice would turn our young into the kinds of “safe” but cowardly proto-demons we’ve all
(unfortunately!) seen far too many of lately. You know the type -- they seem to think they’re really human.
They cruise cappuccino bars for the coffee instead of the blood, and attend midnight screenings of (human) film
festivals (pretending to be in costume - how insulting to our kind is THAT!!) and actually just sit there in the
dark NOT eating the human scum who’re stinking up the place all around them. L.A. is full of ‘em and I hear
San Francisco’s not far behind. Personally, I’d rather see my own hatchlings flame a few humans on their way
out of town than have to see them cower in their eyries just because a girl slayer of half-breed vampires has run
up a lucky streak for a few years. (Oh, BTW, just wanted to let my long-time friends on the board know that
my latest clutch just won their Divisional Title in the Inter-Dimensional Flame Projecting/Team competition for
their age group [under 2 centuries]. They’re going to the Cross-Portals in September and the mate and I have
high hopes for their success. Wish us luck!)

I do agree with you, though, about the neutered (now ex-) demon Spike. You said, “After being chipped, his
true nature showed itself as he began hunting his own kind for sport. But what can you expect? He's a vampire,
his treacherous human nature will exert itself on occasion.” In fact, I would argue that his mulatto status has
been the problem with the character all along. His grandstanding self-aggrandizement *before* he got chipped
is a direct reflection of the corruption that can occur when demons have too much contact with infectious
humans. As my old friend The Judge was quick to point out before his most recent bout of dis-assemblement,
vampires like Spike (and his sire Drusilla, I might add) are just too full of human emotions to be considered True
Demons.

Hey, anybody know whatever happened to that petition drive that started last spring to get ME to do something
about that stupid demon(huh!?) Clem. I remember something about a demand that we wanted to actually see
him EAT one of those kittens or we were gonna stop watching the show, but then the whole thing kinda faded
off into the archives. Anybody ever hear anything back from Joss?

[> [> [> [> Re: Setting a bad example for the little ones, aren't you? -- LittleBite, 11:17:29 07/25/02 Thu

That's great news about the Division Title. I wish them the worst of luck at the Cross-Portals! Quite an accomplishment for ones so young.

I agree with you entirely on the distrubing trend we see of vampires and demons emulating the human refuse around them. This was fine when it was done in order to mingle and cull the herds, but now, to our great chagrin, they're just socializing! Ah, I remember the days when a Bloody Mary had nothing to do with alcohol!

As for the petition, I believe I read somewhere that while Joss wasn't going to rid us of Clem, or at least prove he's a demon, they would show everyone that Spike was evil, through and through, but I think some bleeding hearts (oh, hungry now!) convinced him to reverse it immediately after and corrupt him thoroughly by giving him a (ugh) soul.

[> [> [> [> A Response, a Rant and a Fable -- Buenandanza, 22:48:14 07/25/02 Thu

"Your maladroit advice would turn our young into the kinds of “safe” but cowardly proto-demons we’ve all (unfortunately!) seen far too many of lately. You know the type -- they seem to think they’re really human. They cruise cappuccino bars for the coffee instead of the blood..."

We've all seen demons who think they're human -- Caritas hits so close to the mark that one might suspect Joss as having been to similar spots. It was not my intent to suggest that we all follow the example of these sad excuses for demons; however, I believe you present a false dichotomy when you imply that the choices available to us are humiliating assimilation or suicidal open resistance. If you were to suggest either of these options to your broodlings, I'd advise just eating them instead and saving us all the grief (and I may have some recipes you'd be interested in, depending upon your subspecies). Actually, I believe Autochtone has an important point in her evil as corruption thread (the Gaining New Allies thread) -- how much subtlety have we seen this season? Do you realize that the most subtle demon in Season Six was Halfrek? And she was only just clever enough to fool a half-wit human child. It's insulting. For the most part, the demons have been single-minded (or simpleminded) fools who have rushed to their own destruction (making you wonder how they ever survived their first century).

So it is possible to remain hidden, keep your own culture intact and still do evil -- even for the demons that are just interested in predatory evil. Just be sensible -- a street child tastes the same as any other child. Why risk breaking humans out of their denial by taking the children of the rich? And vampires -- always leaving the bodies lying around. That's not just stupid, it lacks style. Dispose of the bodies in an imaginative manner -- or sell them in the market. There are plenty of demons who eat human flesh and the black market magic suppliers are always looking for certain organs and will usually be willing to barter.

And speaking of stupidity, I'm going to indulge in a little OT ranting about the Incompetent/Dead Minion cliche ME has been helping to perpetuate since Season One. We are presented with the laughable case that the master demon/vampire/whatever kills his minions at the first sign of incompetence -- yet, for some reason, is surrounded entirely by incompetent minions. It can take decades to properly indoctrinate a minion, yet time and time again we see the villainous "masterminds" casually dispose of their assistants. A case in point: Balthazar in Season 3. He sends his faithful minions out to fetch an amulet, they fail and return with information about the slayers -- does he listen? No -- he kills a random minion. Suppose you are one of the minions who watched this happen -- if you fail in a task, will you return or skip town? Clearly the latter -- leaving the master vulnerable to a surprise he could have prevented. It's even worse than that -- Dalton was the one example of a competent minion -- he translated things and was very good at what he did. He was killed -- for a blunder? -- no, to test the Judge. I'm not a minion, but the minions I know are upset. They have no role models on the show, even the Slayers minions are disrespectful and incompetent -- we expected better of Joss.

"I’d rather see my own hatchlings flame a few humans on their way out of town than have to see them cower in their eyries just because a girl slayer of half-breed vampires has run up a lucky streak for a few years."

I, for one, hope her lucky streak continues. Think of a potential replacement -- Faith. Would she stop killing vampires and demons who happen to wander across her path during her nightly patrols? She is a huntress, Buffy is sated with blood. It reminds me of a fable I heard when I was young of the Glaknarl demon and the Mush'q Efreet:

A Glaknarl demon swimming across a river of lava was carried by the force of the current into a very deep ravine, where he lay for a long time very much bruised, sick, and unable to move. A swarm of hungry blood-sucking Stymphalian Hummingbirds settled upon him. A Mush'q Efreet, passing by, saw his anguish and inquired if he should drive away the Hummingbirds that were tormenting him.
"By no means," replied the Glaknarl demon; "pray do not molest them."
"How is this?' said the Efreet; "do you not want to be rid of them?'
"No," returned the Glaknarl demon, "for these hummingbirds which you see are full of blood, and sting me but little,
and if you rid me of these which are already satiated, others more hungry will come in their place, and will drink up all the blood I have left."

[> [> [> [> [> Re: A Response, a Rant and a Fable -- LittleBite, 09:39:52 07/26/02 Fri

Thank you for reminding us of that fable. I had forgotten about it ... a few millenia and that seems to happen ... and it an excellent reminder of the current Slayer status. Never before have we known who the next Slayer would be, or had the opportunity to see her in action. The current Slayer is somewhat unusual in not being single-mindedly righteous about her calling. Perhaps we do have something to thank the traitorous Angelus for.

And, by the way, most of us do clean up after our kills. But in a town like Hellmouth, where there are so many newly turned vampires, we seem to be burdened with a surfeit of babies and centagers. And you know how difficult it can be to get them to clean up their alleys. But that's another rant altogether.

[> [> [> LOL -- Azrahael, 17:00:05 07/25/02 Thu

As you say, her Glorificus, the causer of sweaty naughty feelings was sacrificed in that poignant, and tragic episode the Gift. To see that truly evil and magnificent creature make one great stab at her life goal.....and fail...what pathos!

What a great dress sense. Got to love her flashy and inappropriate outfits. Really showed that whey faced Cordelia up, eh?

[> Message from a Chaos Demon -- BrooklynCD, 09:55:42 07/25/02 Thu

Hi, I've been a long time lurker to this website....no, literally, I've been lurking outside the home of the ATP poster called cjl, waiting for the miserable creature to go to work so I could use his computer.

I read last week's thread about Buffy Season 6 and the ultimate rescue of Willow by (ecch) love. The whining has been unbelievable. I just wanted to say that if you don't like what's going on in BtVS, you just shouldn't watch it anymore. Let's face it, the series was created by humans, its actors are humans, and the plots are geared to a human mentality. I keep reading Ethros Demon's posts complaining, when are they going to bring Angelus back? When is Spike going to snap out of it? When is Anya going to wake up and change that pathetic Xander into a toad? Well, it's not going to happen ED. You keep saying this "Joss Whedon" is a demon in disguise and he's fooled the human television executives into broadcasting his message of chaos. (I personally find that insulting, but never mind.) Stop kidding yourself. The series wouldn't last as long as it did on human television without it ultimately providing the humans with some form of spritual nourishment.

If you're going to watch something like Buffy, you have to appreciate the little things that give you pleasure. I, for one, nearly wept for joy every time Ethan Rayne showed up to puncture the pomposity of the tweed-bearing twit, Giles. (Can you tell Ethan's my favorite character?) Season 6 was a veritable cornucopia of chaos, with Willow's black magic, Xander's moral cowardice, Buffy's emotional coma, and Giles' abandonment of his charges nearly resulting in the end of the world. The idea that a human writer would display such blackness in his characters is a tacit acknowledgement of the power of chaos and the dark side, and we should appreciate Joss Whedon's testimony to our strength.

So, fellow creatures...give it up. Our side is never going to win on this series. (Side note to Proserpexa--yeah, the temple was cheesy, but did you see how they made me look in that flashback?) We'll get our shots in, but the odds are stacked against us...

[> Gaining new allies -- Autochtone, 10:14:20 07/25/02 Thu

What should we think of the situation on the Hellmouth ? I've seen demons complaining about the very low demonic activity this times, as the Slayer and her friends seem to rule and regule all chaotic and evil activities.
Bollocks, I say !
This year has been huge with darkness of all kind. In fact those were caused by humans, even the Slayer gang or other friends of her (some people who called themselves the Troika)
And there I wonder, when you all whine about the good old time, the Order of Aurelius or the bad apocalypse season, where were you when it was time to tempt and seduce to the dark side ?
Where were you when those stupid humans were waiting, ripe and naive, to sell their souls for a few powers ?
Where were you when the Slayer's sister was almost tempted into becoming a vampire by a new but inventive fledgelling ?
Where were you when the Slayer herself was indulging in some dark tendancy ?
And where were you when the Witch went into detruction mode and was actually the only one to attempt an Ending of the World this year ?
All those people should have need some Evil Mentors to guide them on the path of cruaulty and destruction. There were really promising possibilities, but all were missed because you passed to many time complaining about the Slayers or pointing at the sad dechehance of the vampire Spike. (who cares ? it's only a vampire. hardly the noblest of our kind) You have forgotten that our main role is to CORRUPT mankind ! Obviously, those days they're better at it without us than with us.
Well it's not too late. I think we should get and free Ethan Raynes. He's the most experienced of us in turning people to the dark side and imposing a little bit of chaos in town. At once as Willow's back in the Hellmouth territory we should plan to put her back on the dark magic path. It's never too late to turn back to evil. She could be our best allies for a new good season of appocalypses !

[> If the Master looked like Spike, would there still be Master/Darla shippers? -- The Unclean, 12:08:16 07/25/02 Thu

[> [> Re: If the Master looked like Spike, would there still be Master/Darla shippers? -- CD's girl, 18:57:47 07/25/02 Thu

No way-- I'm still holding out for Drusilla and that sweet chaos demon-- he was a big dork, but he was soooo pretty!

[> Re: Welcome to the All Things Philosophical on Buffy, Public Enemy #1 Posting Thread -- Mmmmm., 15:00:29 07/25/02 Thu

Grrnth. Rrrrrrr. Hchehhhh? Hchehhhh! Grrrrrrr, rowwwrrr. Rowwwrrr! GROWWRRR!

Grrrr. Aaargh.

[> [> ROFL !!! -- Autochtone, 15:21:25 07/25/02 Thu

[> how can *anyone* still be a redemptionista? -- demanom, 22:00:30 07/25/02 Thu

I don't get it. Yes, season 6 made it look like the redemptionistas just might be right--there was a chance Buffy would be redeemed for evil if Spike could capitalize on her postresurrection funk to lure her to the dark side. After all, what better opportunity could there be to turn a warrior for the light to our side than to have her in what she considers hell? (And that's not even a double entendre-- "turning" her in the sense of making her a vampire would have been far less satisfying at this point.)

I can see how those who think she's so kewl & can't see past her hair (even when she cut it--don'tcha love it when the writers address those fan issues head-on?) could think it might happen this season, what with her willingness to go with Sweet to his "kingdom below," her unleashed violence toward Spike in Dead Things (wasn't that beautiful?), the way she went straight to him the first time she felt "free" (Gone), the suggestion she didn't come back entirely human, her susceptibility to Spike's insistence that she belonged "in the dark...with me." (Some would count her attempt to kill all her friends & her sister, but please--they gave her the excuse of being delusional due to demon poisoning! And no, I don't agree that's just a metaphor for her falling under demonic influence.) ME choreographed a fascinating dance not just in OMWF but between Spike & Buffy all season- -would he be lost to the good? would she discover the joys of evil?

But the redemptionistas conveniently ignore the fact that Buffy continued to act as a Slayer from the moment she first confronted a demon after her resurrection & throughout the season, although most of her murders took place in the background. She continued to backslide, e.g., realizing she didn't want to die in Gone & breaking up w/Spike at the end of AYW. And now? Wake up & smell the brimstone--not only has Buffy embraced human life again, but Spike gave up any possible chance of redeeming her when he went & got his soul back--whether or not he intended to. So forget it. She doesn't even have the long hair anymore. Give it up.

I always liked her better grey anyhow, but now it looks like we won't even get that.

[> [> but her hair... -- ponygoyle, 06:59:27 07/26/02 Fri

I know a lot of people thought all the hair flipping scenes this season were gratuitous but come on! Her hair is great! I'm sorry you just can't get the same effect with scales or feathers. I don't want to start another shipper war, the blood's still not quite dry from the last one and that newbie I devoured is still caught somewhere in my teeth, but I can't help hoping in my hearts that Spike's getting a soul is an important step towards Buffy losing hers. Wouldn't that be a cute season opener twist? Spike saying that he got a soul for Buffy and she saying that she gave hers up to win Spike back? Then they could spend next season proving that souls don't really matter when it comes to evil.

[> [> Re: how can *anyone* still be a redemptionista? -- LittleBite, 09:23:27 07/26/02 Fri

But the redemptionistas conveniently ignore the fact that Buffy continued to act as a Slayer from the moment she first confronted a demon after her resurrection & throughout the season, although most of her murders took place in the background.

I have to agree about the Slayer still having that deep good streak. Regardless of the evil she did because of Spike, underneath she is still GOOD. Why doesn't anyone seem to understand that? I know that the Splayer 'ship is very popular, but doesn't anyone see how bad this relationship is for Spike? She entices him, with the clairol hair and the whole Big Good attitude, but what is really happening here? The Slayer has so corrupted him that we may have lost him forever.

(Some would count her attempt to kill all her friends & her sister, but please--they gave her the excuse of being delusional due to demon poisoning! And no, I don't agree that's just a metaphor for her falling under demonic influence.)

We must remember that the delusional state was the interpretation of the humans and their absurd need to turn anything the Slayer does to good. We know that anyone under the influence of a Glarghk Guhl Kashma'nik demon experiences extraordinary clarity of thought, especially about the relative importance of evil and good. For a short while we all had hope that she would simply rid this world of a bit more of the human infestation.

But the redemptionistas conveniently ignore the fact that Buffy continued to act as a Slayer from the moment she first confronted a demon after her resurrection & throughout the season, although most of her murders took place in the background. ... Wake up & smell the brimstone-- not only has Buffy embraced human life again, but Spike gave up any possible chance of redeeming her when he went & got his soul back--whether or not he intended to.

I have to wonder though, even if she had been turned to our side (oooo ... delightful chills at the thought of a VampSlayer...) would she be truly redeemed? Would it be possible to forgive all the murders she is responsible for? Most vamnpires and demons, even with our much longer life spans don't kill as many humans as this Slayer did in just seven short years? Even at an average of one per day, that's over 2500 dead demons! And we know that many times there were significantly more than one! Every time we tried to create an apocalypse, there she was...slaying dozens! Although, wait a minute here...that's pretty darned impressive!!! If we could get the same results, maybe double, from a VampSlayer, we could wipe out small towns in no time!!!

Oh! Why, oh why, didn't Angelus or Dracula or Spike turn her when they had the chance?!!!

[> [> [> Re: how can *anyone* still be a redemptionista? -- clashing carp, 09:46:28 07/26/02 Fri

Maybe if she was turned she would stake herself?

[> A Comparison of the Descent of Angelus with that of Gsparthiban in the Tales of Uiactgiu -- LittleBite, 23:11:05 07/25/02 Thu

A Comparison of the Descent of Angelus with that of Gsparthiban in the Tales of Uiactgiu

The struggle we have witnessed in our beloved Angelus as he fights against the lure of that cursed soul has it's parallel in the journey that Gsparthiban[1] follows in the classic Tales of Uiactgiu[2]. As you may recall, Gsparthiban is a warrior of the people, a chaos demon of extraordinary ability. He, like Angelus, was a stellar example of the heights that could be attained.

In Uiactgiu, like Romania, there was a significant portion of the population who were nomadic in nature. Like this world's gypsies, the urhditod were a tightly-knit extended family grouping who were very protective of their own. Gsparthiban, like Angelus, violated that group and brought their wrath upon himself. Where Angelus was cursed with a soul, Gsparthiban was cursed with a desire for order. In both cases, the curse caused the hero to behave in a manner completely contrary to their natures.

Where Angelus finds himself nearly unable to sustain himself because of the curse, Gsparthiban is unable to live in the world he created. Both embark on a journey of degradation, inexorably moving toward the light. Gsparthiban's journey took him on an uphill battle waged by his own nature in turmoil against the deeds he was forced to perform by the curse. He, who once spread chaos throughout ancient worlds, was now reduced first to judging disputes fairly, ultimately to developed systems of law and enforcing them as an adjudicator. At his lowest point Gsparthiban finds himself becoming involved with the ruler of Uiactgiu, Her Royal Majesty, Queen Brngulli[3], who was the foremost proponent of order in her monarchy. Brngulli and Gsparthiban organize the populace in the hopes of eradicating the chaos demons, Gsparthiban's own kin. At that point, Gsparthiban is lost to himself, only distantly aware of his true self, being the man his lady desires.

In Angelus' journey, he spends nearly a century in torment, in acute awareness of the lives he had taken when his true nature ran free. The soul he was burdened with prevented him from acting on his instincts, from feeding as he needed to, from reveling in the pain he could cause. Angelus avoids the slippery slope of goodness for nearly a century until Whistler, a meddling, interfering outcast of a demon with a perfectly ridiculous name, introduced him to the newest Slayer. She is a puny human, and Angelus was caught off his guard, thus commencing his descent into the decadence of righteousness. He descends rapidly into the light at the behest of the Slayer, becoming not only her strongest ally, but like Gsparthiban, he becomes romantically involved. He denies his nature, strives to become the man he believes she requires.

Angelus and Gsparthiban have both arrived at the nadir of their journeys, and the next step for each is a mirror image of the other's. Brngulli, in her desire to create a perfect order has set her magicians to work on a counter-spell that will break all magic ties in her kingdom, not knowing that Gsparthiban is bound by the curse of order. In similar fashion, the Slayer brings Angelus to the depth of happiness and contentment, not knowing that the curse is only binding as long as he remains unhappy and discontent.

Each demon is released from its imprisonment with an almost explosive release of the evil that has been chained inside. Gsparthiban leaves the palace, destroying the palace guard on his way, tearing the judical platforms to pieces. Angelus leaves his bed and feeds off the first human he encounters. Both are determined to wreak revenge on the one who pulled them to the light, who caused them to feel happiness and contentment, emotions that are anathema to all demonkind.

It is only here that their paths separate, for while Gsparthiban is able to regain his evil and redoubles his efforts at chaos, Angelus finds himself the victim of a horrid conspiracy to curse him again, just as he is on the verge of bringing the greatest evil into his world; he has the soul thrust back into him, is impaled on his "beloved's" sword (given to her by that same meddling demon), and thrust, newly-ensouled, into the demon's dimension.

Here is where the hero of ancient myth has conquered the light and achieved greater evil than ever was imagined, while the contemporary hero is faced with naught more than trial after trial. We can but hope that he shall once again conquer the light and become a champion of evil as he is destined to be.

1 Gsparthiban – Journey of a Hero, translation from Ysprthbn Idis Hrnity in the private collection of the Vysfrtian Library.

2 Uiactgiu was the pre-Yksindric name for the area now known as Dhystysn in the Knoorlsd demon dimension. See Tgnyskt's Atlas to Other Worlds for more detailed information.

3 Brngulli, Queen of Uiactgiu, daughter of Hnksmr the Just, descended of the line of Jycy the Magnificent. Royal Bloodlines of Uiactgiu.

[> [> Kaboom! Amazing post, Little Bite! -- BrooklynCD, 06:22:01 07/26/02 Fri

Speaking as 257th in the direct ancestral line of Gsparthiban to rule the great Kingdoms (I know it's mostly ceremonial these days, but indulge me), I applaud the comparison and can only hope I can live up to my ancestor's example.

Aside to CD's girl: nice to know the distorted portrayal on Buffy hasn't completely ruined things for Chaos Demons. They've got the horns down, but they never seem to get the amount of mucus right. BTW, there's a black mass on Long Island Sound this Saturday at midnight. If you'd be my escort, I'll let you perform the ritual sacrifice...

[> [> [> Re: Kaboom! Amazing post, Little Bite! -- LittleBite, 14:30:31 07/26/02 Fri

Wow, it's not often one gets the chance to meet a direct descendant of one of the great heroes of legend. One of my favorite celebrations is the Unleashing of Gsparthiban on the 37th day of Tkshtynk. I am certain he would be quite pleased to have you representing his bloodline.

[> [> [> [> Finally! A little respect on this board.... -- BrooklynCD, 06:57:38 07/27/02 Sat

I mean, honestly, it's hard enough slogging through the sewer systems in New York City (Vyrshtk knows what these people dump down there), and picking off environmentalists trying to clean up the landfills, but I have to catch the attitude of hatchlings on the board who hear the honored name of Gsparthiban and laugh. The Kingdoms have been a joke for the past 10,000 years, they tell me, and me and my ancestor are about as relevant as a green polyester leisure suit.

I am NOT irrelevant. All right, the Line has been in exile since the Great Wars of the Second Epoch, but we are still as dedicated as we ever were to the great teachings of our ancestor. Living on this miserable planet is like living on the hair of a mole on a pustule, but I've worked HARD in my little corner of the world for the past fifty years, driving the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, keeping subway service as confusing and inaccessible as possible, and pumping up the air pollution.

But do they care? Nooooooooo. And when they're not aggravating my stomachs, I have to hear from my brother, Mr. Big Shot Second High Priest to the Blasphemous Ones, with his luxury burrow in the Stygian Mounds, number 256 in the line, just because he clawed his way out of his blood sac 30 seconds (30 seconds!) before I did...

I'm sorry. I know, I know--this is not the place. If I have complaints about the system, I should save it for the next Walpurgisnacht Gathering. If She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wants to delete this, I understand.

But I just had to vent.

[> [> Re: A Comparison of the Descent of Angelus with that of Gsparthiban in the Tales of Uiactgiu -- Erythro- CathSith, Keeper of the Nest of Derkesthai, 09:55:55 07/26/02 Fri

“Here is where the hero of ancient myth has conquered the light and achieved greater evil than ever was
imagined, while the contemporary hero is faced with naught more than trial after trial. We can but hope that he
shall once again conquer the light and become a champion of evil as he is destined to be.”

Wonderful comparison, Little Bite!! I *especially* enjoyed your analysis of the amoral lesson of the two tales,
ancient and modern, given the dispute that cowering Illogicus demon and I had further up on the thread about
teaching our young to be “safe” versus teaching them to be the kind of demons we would be *proud* to devour
(if and when things came to that, I mean). In fact, Gsparthiban’s journey back to chaos should be an inspiration
to the young of many species. I know that in our eyrie, his ode is keened to our clutches even before they hatch
(well, yes, this is partly because our kind hunts and eats Chaos demons during our Mating Initiation rites, but the
kids are required to memorize the entire 2,600 lines of the Ode in the original Uiactgiuan before they can be sent
on their First Mission, and we make sure they understand the deeper metaphysical meaning of the hero’s journey
– we don’t just let them get away with rote memorization like some degenerated sub-species do these days –
hey, I’m not naming names here, but we all know who I’m referring to....).

I think Arethusa’s comments above -- that the good that lies hidden in the hearts and/or other internal organs of
all demons needs to be brought out into the night and blow- torched once and for all -- works very well as a
commentary on the differences between Gsparthiban’s tale and Angelus’. Many, many posters have forgiven
Angelus for his duplicitous acceptance of the second ensouling curse without a fight, based in part on his (truly
magnificent, I admit!!) single act of shutting the cellar doors on the W&H lawyers. However, I think a more
edifying way to look at the struggle of a demon cursed to do good is the subtle hint in the original Uiactgiuan
version of the Ode (lines 2287-93) that Gsparthiban actually knows Brngulli is looking for a counterspell to stop
all magic, understands the effect that will have on himself, and DOESN’T DO ANYTHING TO STOP HER!
Now, I realize that the descendants of the great warrior have resisted that interpretation over the millennia,
concerned that it indicates their great ancestor was really some kind of a wuss, but I really think that, with just a
bit of imagination, one could read those lines as evidence that Gsparthiban’s evil nature was sneakily holding
back the curse’s rudely imposed drive to order in the only way it had left. Such courage and commitment to evil
in the face of almost overwhelming odds is something I’d dearly like to have seen our favorite Brooding
Vampire display a great deal more of over the past few seasons.

BTW, how did you get access to the texts in the Vysfrtian Library? I thought it was closed for remodeling after
that last inter-dimensional portal in the center of the main reading room blew up? Has the family opened it up to
visiting scholars again? Thanks for any info you can pass along.

[> [> [> Re: A Comparison of the Descent of Angelus with that of Gsparthiban in the Tales of Uiactgiu -- LittleBite, 01:32:07 07/27/02 Sat

Thank you for your kind words about my little essay. It's very good to know that for some of us the ways of antiquity are not forgotten but are still the ways of today.

I quite agree with your interpretation of Gsparthiban's actions during the time of the search for the magic counterspell. I believe, as you do, that his silence was a heroic attempt to neutralize the curse. He was prevented from creating chaos, and compelled, when in action, to promote order, but a course of action that did neither was not prevented nor compelled. What is not clear is why does Angelus not do this? Once he is victimized by the soul a second time, he goes in search of good deeds to do [just writing that gives me the shivers]. He could stand by and allow evil full reign, even if he didn't promote it himself.

In regard to the library, one of my great-grandsires was the Custodian of the Tomes there and was given leave to makes copies of the ones he was translating, as well as copies of the translations. As far as I know, the family is still in the process of restoration, although rumor has it they may reopen within the year.

[> [> [> [> Thanks for the info! (slight spoiler for AtS/S3 finale) -- E-CS, KotNoD, 09:14:47 07/27/02 Sat

"[Angelus] could stand by and allow evil full reign, even if he didn't promote it himself."

This has long been my own hope for the character. I have watched that exquisite last scene of the otherwise- heartbreaking
episode, Graduation Day 2, so many times that my copy of the tape has almost worn through, and the mate and hatchlings
groan every time I lumber toward the VCR. You know the scene, when the now-twice-cursed Angelus turns his back and
WALKS AWAY from the humans he has so treacherously helped to destroy the great snake demon Olvikan, his black
coat swirling grandly about him as he vanishes into the dark smoke. Oh, how my dual liver valves swell each time I watch
that magnificent scene, full of the promise of our Dark Warrior’s return to his true destiny as a Creator of Chaos. Alas,
that promise remains unfulfilled as of yet, but I have high hopes for AtS season 4. After all, a ravenous vampire is a Bad
Vampire!!...or so I tell myself on these long, hot summer nights of reruns.

Many thanks for a great discussion, Little Bite. And for initiating this quite edifying board thread. If I’m ever tempted to
eat you (BTW, are you a species that my kind eats??), please remind me of this day – memory makes such a great
tenderizer!

[> Why doesn't Spike just Turn the Slayer and be done with it! -- Werewolfhowl3, 06:32:47 07/26/02 Fri

Then he would still have the Slayer to Shag without her flawed human Soul in the way.

He learned that he could hurt her body as well as her mind, so why not just be done with it.

Werewolfhowl3

HOOOOWWWWWLLLLL!

[> Hope for Willow -- Saguaro Sulker, 06:48:22 07/26/02 Fri

I know it looks bad, that clumsy Xander blundering into the end-of-the-world energy beam and messing it up and stuff. Then like an oaf he was just standing there and did it again, like Aunt Beulah standing there drooling in from of the TV when wrestling is on. But, he did say he was just there to watch. Maybe when Willow stops crying, he'll encourage her to try again.

Don't you just think Willy the Snitch is the coolest? God, I wish we'd see more of him. I'm a confirmed Willy/Faith shipper!

[> [> Re: Hope for Wesley -- Arethusa, 08:12:43 07/26/02 Fri

I''m just about ready to give up on Willow and Xander. You can't trust humans, they break my hearts every time. Whenever they do something decent like cheat on their dates or browbeat and manipulate their lovers, we know they'll backslide back into their twisted version of morality. Didn't Wedon say he'll give us what we need, not what we want? And surely you remember Willy's sniveling speech to the slayer, saying how he had gone "straight," as if crooked were bad!

If you really want a ship to sail by, take Lilah and Wesley. Not since Angelus and Drucilla have we seen a couple with so much gusto for causing suffering. Wesley is finally living up to his potential, which we first saw when he was so willing to hand over Angel to that nice plump demon. His courtship with Lilah reminded me of my own, with its romantic death threats and ritual Banishment from the Conjugal Bed. (Good times, good times.) Of course, Lilah has always been my hero, and her journey to success at Wolfram and Hart has been an inspiration for countless young women. No real demon could do better.

[> Re: Grrr, I hate Xander!!! -- demimonde, 12:39:19 07/26/02 Fri

Who does this guy think he is anyway? Sure, he always gets off scot free, without ever apologizing for his transgressions. Sure, he lied to Buffy just before she sent Angelus's Buffy-whipped alter-ego straight to hell...Zounds, who could ever forget that??? But big freaky deal! He's helped out the Slayer too many times to count. He rescued DarkWillow (with LOVE! Arrrgh), even gave Anyanka a conscience so that she has yet to do vengeance again! Thank goodness his mean streak comes up whenever Spike's around, or he'd be a bland do-gooder like that Riley shmuck. All that evil potential...Sigh, what a waste.

*Shakes head sadly*

[> Kitten Poker in Chat tonight! Get 'em while they're tender! -- Soulless Undead, 12:55:31 07/26/02 Fri

[> [> OK, I guess I'm in...but the last batch was kind of chewy from the get-go.... -- The Unclean, 13:09:51 07/26/02 Fri

[> [> [> Aww, you just need to tenderize 'em a little... -- Soulless Undead, 13:36:48 07/26/02 Fri

Hit 'em with a mallet a coupla times. Got some good bbq recipes if you want 'em.

Soulless

[> [> [> [> I think you guys could stand to go easy on the kittens . . . -- d'Horrible, 14:38:47 07/26/02 Fri

. . . and start eating some humans for a change. Much easier on the waistline.

[> [> [> [> [> Humans go straight to the hips. -- Lurconis, 15:04:08 07/26/02 Fri

Especially Americans.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I think you guys could stand to go easy on the kittens . . . -- KikiarakniturandotAiiiie! (Kiki), Bride of Chaotica, 15:04:21 07/26/02 Fri

Aww, but they're *soooo* yummy! And they have such good fiber content. Modern humans aren't hairy enough to provide the RDA of fiber the way a handful of kittens can. Besides, as long as you play with them hard enough, you can get exercise *and* a snack.

Well, you can say that about humans too, of course, but sometimes you just don't feel like a full meal....

Does anyone have any recipes for basting kittens in land- mammalian blood? My in-laws are coming in for the psychiatrist harvest at the Cape, and they're allergic to dolphin oil. (The in-laws, not the psychiatrists. *I* think his mothers just don't like my recipe, but they're past their millenia, they're not going to change for me.)

Oo, did anyone find out which species of blood larvae Anyanka wanted at her wedding? We've got a joining coming up, and I need them for party favors.

[> [> Re: Kitten Poker in Chat tonight! Get 'em while they're tender! -- Kiki, Bride of Chaotica, 15:14:41 07/26/02 Fri

Remind me, which chat room? I really don't want to end up in the Frisky chatroom again and find out it's all those pervy Watchers going on about their voyeurism habits.

Not that there's anything *wrong* with that.... I'm as open- minded as the next demon, except if the next demon is a Oskilanailion, of course. But the C.O.W. gives me the creeps.

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