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Gritting my teeth and enjoying the most recent episode. -- Solitude1056, 20:04:14 01/21/03 Tue

Figured I'd throw these observations out there, see if anyone else can relate. In no particular order:

1. Can Andrew possibly whine even more irritatingly?

Andrew's whining seems to be getting even more high-pitched and nasally, as if the actor is emphasizing it even more. Is this so when Dawn brains him with the vacuum cleaner we'll cheer rather than empathize?

2. Can the proto-slayers get any more snarky?

Several times I found myself thinking of my Southern grandmother's expression, "she's drinking her milk out of a bowl today." (Cain't hep it, I'm from Georgia.) The whole lot of them were catty, and awfully impudent about it. Let's see, would I make fun of a woman who could break me in half without breaking a sweat, and has repeatedly shown herself to be the only thing standing between me and an expiration date the length of Shrubya's attention span? Gee, no, I think I'd be going out of my way to just smile and ignore any idiosyncracies.

3. Who else cheered when Spike and Buffy shut the door on the proto-slayers?

And more to the point, who else had their fingers crossed that at least two wouldn't make it out alive? Please, Joss, just this once, give us what we want...

4. Are there any Mary Sue traits Kennedy hasn't shown so far?

Now she's the perky one, doing her outright best to magnamimously welcome Amanda into the group. No, girls, let's not all gloat for even a second longer about our own four-on-one miniscule victory, do let's hear from our new best friend!

5. Contradictorially, anyone else silently thank Mary Sue, err, Kennedy, for changing the topic?

Because if I had to listen to the aforementioned we-can't-do-it crew pat themselves on the back for even another line, I was going to throw my beagle at the television.

6. Who else thinks Dawn almost got Xander's superhero status right... but not completely?

As always, from the "you're my hero" speech to Buffy back in Season 4, to the "crayon breaky Willow" speech in Season 6, to tonight's "you're extraordinary" speech to Dawn, Xander's got heart in spades. I don't know, though, if I'd call his superhero power seeing, though, I'd call it supporting. That's Xander, supporto-guy, and other bra-related concepts.

Reminds me of the live-action roleplaying games. Apparently there are characters, and various general plot lines, and even live-action dungeon masters (or whatever they're called these days). But a crucial element to the game's success, according to several DM's I met one evening, is the participation of what they call believers. These are otherwise normal, ordinary folk who don't have characters, probably aren't aware of the majority of the game's intricacies, yet support their friends' participation by providing background noise, color, support. Somewhere between an active audience and a passive character.

Of course, Xander also reminds me of the Muppet Movie, in the grand finale's first verse:

It starts when we're kids, a show-off in school;
Makin' faces at friends, you're a clown and a fool.
Doin' prat-falls and bird-calls and bad imitations;
Ignoring your homework, now that's dedication.
You work to the mirror, you're getting standing ovations.

You're burning with hope, you're building up steam.
What was once juvenilish is grown-up and stylish,
You're close to your dream.
Then somebody out there loves you,
Stands up and hollers for more;...

I like the fact that Joss uses Xander to point out that those of us cheering/supporting the heroes are just as important as the heros themselves.

* I reserve the right to be extra-cranky at random intervals, and without warning. I haven't smoked in over a week, and I'm not actually that cranky about it... but everyone keeps telling me I should be, that it's normal when quitting to be cranky, so I reserve the right should I suddenly feel a bout of crankiness coming on. You've been warned.

Bwahahahaha.

[> Re: Gritting my teeth *spoilers?* -- manwitch, 20:15:37 01/21/03 Tue

I agree about Andrew. And even about some of the protoslayers. And since we're complaining about 'em and all, hey, somebody get Amanda a sandwich. The thought of hearing her voice for the rest of the season doesn't really fill me with anticipation, either.

But I love the episode in spite of it all. I love seeing Buffy with the split-second pang of confusion about Spike, love seeing Xander with his heart in the right place again, love a good number of things about Dawn, and I just thought Clem was delightful, even if it had been done before.

I do eagerly await the scene where Dawn brains Andrew with a vaccuum cleaner. That's a spoiler right? You know that for sure?

[> [> oh, uh, right, spoilers for most recent episode. *knew* I was forgetting something. -- Solitude1056, 20:21:22 01/21/03 Tue

But the vacuum cleaner is entirely speculation, sad to say.

So, for that matter, is the duct tape.

*sigh*

[> I feel a bout coming on! One more thing for that list... -- Solitude1056, 20:18:35 01/21/03 Tue

7. Could someone please tell Buffy to shut the hell up?

Is it really necessary to lecture the proto-slayers, continuously, all day, all night, over and over again, on the same bloomin' topics? Or is Buffy just so enamoured of her voice that she's really getting into this pseudo-watcher droning? I mean, seriously, it was a relief to have her exit stage left at some points. I suppose some lecturing is necessary (even without the dramatic axe point buried in the cheap-looking target) but does it have to happen while the camera is on that scene? Couldn't we just find out about it from someone and not have to experience the lecturing ourselves, first hand, ad nauseum?

Maybe the First Evil will come back and swat Buffy with a case of laryngitis. No, wait, only the First Good would be that kind to us.

I say, duct tape for all annoying characters until they get over their annoyieness. Duct tape for the Buffster so no more lectures, and duct tape for the protos so no more cattiness. Oh, and duct tape for Andrew so no more whininess. Yay, happy household.

[> [> Re: I feel a bout coming on! One more thing for that list... -- Malandanza, 21:36:58 01/21/03 Tue

"Is it really necessary to lecture the proto-slayers, continuously, all day, all night, over and over again, on the same bloomin' topics? "

I thought the lectures were vital
. Back in CWDP, Buffy revealed that she sometimes feels superior and tonight she really showed that deep down, she does believe this to be true. The talk to the proto-slayers was all about how they were the chosen few, a part of destiny. etc. I'm not sure if it's a sign that Buffy is coming to grips with her identity (because she is an exceptional person) or a warning that she's becoming isolated -- as SK pointed out above in her post, there's been an awful lot of power talk this season. If Buffy becomes corrupted by her power combined with this new sense of destiny and superiority, she could be dangerous, not only to herself, but to the others as well.

Also interesting to me is that she reenacted her own Cruciamentum -- as if she has taken over the role of the Watchers -- even those roles against which she which she rebelled. Is this tough love or an abuse of power? Was the Cruciamentum necessary for Buffy or was it a foolish (or evil) tradition? The SiT's were four on one, but they had not had the years of actual slaying under their belts (and some had little training at all).

As for Andrew, I liked his "I hate my Free Will" comment -- because in his case, it is true -- he's much happier just obeying orders.

I have to join the rest of you in saying I loved Dawn this episode -- it was a crushing disappointment for her that she met with remarkable maturity. And I'm glad Xander was there to give her support -- it would have been very sad to have left the episode with Dawn flipping through a research book in a desperate effort to be useful (and hopefully, with Xander to talk to, she won't be as reckless as Xander has been over the years -- stick to research instead of throwing herself into danger).

[> [> [> Re: May Buffy is the First Evil.... -- bas, 22:22:11 01/21/03 Tue

Just Kidding, well a little.

----"I'm not sure if it's a sign that Buffy is coming to grips with her identity (because she is an exceptional person) or a warning that she's becoming isolated -- as SK pointed out above in her post, there's been an awful lot of power talk this season. If Buffy becomes corrupted by her power combined with this new sense of destiny and superiority, she could be dangerous, not only to herself, but to the others as well."------

Back in Dracula, Drac told Buffy her power was from the same source as his. That it was dark. If Buffy were to connect fully with this power, which supposedly created the slayer, then I'd say your speculation could be right, that she could be really dangerous. At least for a few episodes, then she'd have to snap out of it. Can't have The Hero in the last season being the ultimate big bad. Maybe.

Given only half a season to go, I have no idea how they will tackle this and provide a satisfying resolution. I love this show so much, I'm terrified they'll leave me hating it.

As for Buffy locking in the proto slayers. I'm sure she and Spike was right outside the door monitoring their progress.

[> [> [> [> But November Buffy is First Good -- being silly, 22:25:16 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> Agreeing with Mal here -- Rufus, 02:55:10 01/22/03 Wed

There's lots of exposition in this ep and it's needed to forward the story. Plus the mirroring of Potential and Helpless....of course there are big differences between what the Watchers did to Buffy and what she did with the Potentials. This is a war folks and the Potentials aren't anywhere near being ready to protect themselves. Buffy didn't drug them, she closed the doors and attempted to get them to use their instincts. The cutting back and forth between Dawn and Amamda and Buffy was a good way explain what it is like to find out you are a slayer.

Next weeks ep is Help and it's the first episode we meet Amanda in...I remember thinking her story to Buffy was a bit Buffy-like in that she feels different and reacts to situations with aggression and it confuses her.

And with Andrew.....what good is Free Will with a follower like Andrew....being the sheep he is how much of his actions are free will as opposed to manipulation be it the live Warren, or First Evil?

[> [> [> [> Here as well -- Cactus Watcher, 05:42:52 01/22/03 Wed

Buffy is becoming super-watcher, and reminding the potential slayers over and over about what they must do to stay alive is what watchers have always done.

[> [> [> [> [> The New Council (spoiler to Potential and spec) -- Caroline, 10:39:32 01/22/03 Wed

I was thinking as I was watching the show last night that buffy would somehow restart the Council, now that they've been eliminated. However, it would be run by her along the lines she wished and would possibly be supported by the coven in Devon (I love how those words sound). This would clear the way for a new slayer after Faith has gone with Dawn as a researcher, fulfilling part of the role that Willow currently provides. I think that given last night it is quite possible that Spike will also be involved in some kind of watcher capacity (perhaps he and Giles try to recreated the Council's records, assist with the sits etc). I'm still hoping that my previous spec on Wood occurs and that he becomes a watcher to the new slayer (I'm plugging for Amanda here cos I really like her - the others sits annoy me). Buffy could still sometimes kick butt but wouldn't have to be there all the time. I think that I would watch that show.

[> [> [> [> Ummmm.... -- Darby, 05:48:12 01/22/03 Wed

Exactly what part of the story advanced? The training stuff was not enough to hang an episode on, the Dawn-is-no-she-isn't was just aimed at the speculating fans and also not worthy of being a main plot, none of the info uncovered last episode was even discussed, and they are no closer to finding voices for all of these new faces than they were before. A stand-alone episode needs to be able to, well, stand alone. Shadowkat used the term "treading water" in one of her posts here, and that's exactly the term that came into my mind - in about an hour and a half over the last two episodes, we've had about 20 minutes of real story and the rest was dull filler. That would be fine - in the old days, the filler was the fun part of the show, full of wit and the voices of these neat, unique characters who have somehow become interchangeable.

[> [> [> [> Giles' other role -- Malandanza, 08:46:35 01/22/03 Wed

"And with Andrew.....what good is Free Will with a follower like Andrew....being the sheep he is how much of his actions are free will as opposed to manipulation be it the live Warren, or First Evil?"

The difference between Spike and Andrew I see is that Andrew was a dupe and Spike was a mindless automaton. Andrew may be easily led, but that does not excuse his actions any more than it excused Wesley's on Angel. I like this lyric from Rush's Freewill:

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

Which applies to Harmony as well as Andrew. On the other hand, I think Andrew would have had a stronger case if he had asked why Willow is allowed to be part of the team after her torture/murder rampage (and Warren's death is something for which she has never shown any regret -- I loved Andrew's accidental reminder with the snake skin). Buffy would not have been as easily able to dismiss Andrew in such a case -- she might have said "The magic made her do it," but Andrew was also connected to a source of great evil when he was manipulated by the FE (and he could claim that his demon summoning past had a similar effect).

CW says that Buffy is becoming a Super Watcher, while others on the board claim that Xander is the Watcher because of his interaction with Dawn. I would say that Xander is filling Giles' other role -- the one that got him fired. Xander's speech in Potential reminded me of Giles' speech to Buffy in Innocence -- full of support, just the right thing to say.

[> [> [> They weren't drugged though.... -- Briar Rose, 17:29:51 01/22/03 Wed

I agree that Buffy and Spike locking them in w/ the Vamp harkened back to the Cruciamentum - however, not in such a vulgarly imbalanced way. They had all their faculties and the "group power" that Buffy didn't in that test.

I have to add my big beef from the last three episodes - although it isn't anything about the story line or character development: What is with all the BAD LIGHTING the crew is giving Willow, Anya, Buffy and Xander lately?

Everytime they have them together with no proto-Slayers or Dawn or "students" around they are lighting them in such a way that they appear older than they are by bouncing shadows all over their faces!

Now in the biz it's a big joke that you never piss off the lighting and camera guys, or they can make you look ghastly in pay back. But I doubt that every one of the Scoobies could have pissed off the gaffers and grips that badly all at once!*L

I am beginning to think that it's a director's way of "aging" the Scoobies beyond their years so as to make the ingenues look younger and make more of a contrast. But tis truly annoying me now. Especially since so many posters keep commenting that Willow appears to be "joyless" since the season started. I haven't noticed any shots of Willow being "joyless", not at all... It's just the lighting is so bad for her that all her expressions are lost in shadows making her appear grim even when she's smiling - and it's not just Willow. They are doing it with nearly everyone over the character age of 18.

[> Muppet parallel -- CW, 20:26:31 01/21/03 Tue

I think the song "It's Not Easy Being Green" fits Dawn and Xander's situation pretty well. It's tough enough to be normal in a normal world, but in a scary monster-filled one it's really tough, even if it is what you should want to be.

Wanting to throw a beagle at the tv, annoying teenage protoslayers or no, is probably a sysmpton of withdrawal, unless your beagle was particularly naughty today. The fact you did not actually do it, suggests you are progressing nicely in kicking the habit. ;o)

[> Completely agree with all your points (Potential Spoilers) -- shadowkat, 20:48:19 01/21/03 Tue

Actually I made some of them in my own post above and wasn't nearly so diplomatic.

1. Can Andrew possibly whine even more irritatingly?

Andrew's whining seems to be getting even more high-pitched and nasally, as if the actor is emphasizing it even more. Is this so when Dawn brains him with the vacuum cleaner we'll cheer rather than empathize?

Thank you. Someone else who agrees. I rewatched Real ME with David Fury's commentary and realized Tom Lenk played the whiny minion vampire in the episode - who tries to kill Dawn and gets staked by Buffy. He had a whiny voice in that episode too. Wondering if this is an actor trait.

At any rate - I think I will cheer and celebrate when he dies. Assuming they actually kill him. ME has an irritating habit of keeping irritating characters alive and killing fun lovable ones like Webs, Cassie, and Tara.

2. Can the proto-slayers get any more snarky?

Several times I found myself thinking of my Southern grandmother's expression, "she's drinking her milk out of a bowl today." (Cain't hep it, I'm from Georgia.) The whole lot of them were catty, and awfully impudent about it. Let's see, would I make fun of a woman who could break me in half without breaking a sweat, and has repeatedly shown herself to be the only thing standing between me and an expiration date the length of Shrubya's attention span? Gee, no, I think I'd be going out of my way to just smile and ignore any idiosyncracies.

Yes, also agree. I lost interest in them really quickly and kept wondering why Buffy didn't let Spike kill a few. And yep I also cheered when she shut them in the crypt with the vampire. And I had my fingers crossed at least two would get it. Very disappointed that Molly and Vi survived - their accents are beginning to grate on my nerves - which is saying something, since I normally could care less about fake accents, rarely notice them. These two I noticed. Although Rona who I actually sort of liked in Showtime is getting on my nerves now. Snarky is an understatement. I agree if the only thing standing between me and certain death is Buffy and her friends, I'd make a point of being extra nice. Buffy and Spike certainly have high tolerance level in this episode. Was very happy when Clem scared them.

4. Are there any Mary Sue traits Kennedy hasn't shown so far?

Now she's the perky one, doing her outright best to magnamimously welcome Amanda into the group. No, girls, let's not all gloat for even a second longer about our own four-on-one miniscule victory, do let's hear from our new best friend!

5. Contradictorially, anyone else silently thank Mary Sue, err, Kennedy, for changing the topic?

Because if I had to listen to the aforementioned we-can't-do-it crew pat themselves on the back for even another line, I was going to throw my beagle at the television.

Uhm yes to both. I like Kennedy for her changes in topic and she's the only proto-slayer outside of Amanda, the new one, who doesn't set my teeth on edge. OTOH - her character seems very underdeveloped - hence my theory - too many new underdeveloped characters in what looks like the last season. They need to get rid of a few. I know - kill off Andrew, Rona, Vi, Molly, Chole (is she still around) and
develope KEnnedy and Amanda a little more. Also more Clem, I missed him. Actually I think Amanda might be the most interesting new character to grace Btvs in a while...

I like the fact that Joss uses Xander to point out that those of us cheering/supporting the heroes are just as important as the heros themselves.

Me too. It was the best Xander speech in quite awhile. Really liking Xander this year.

Great post. SK

[> [> Where is Chloe? -- HonorH, 23:14:22 01/21/03 Tue

Did they misplace another Potential? What's wrong with these people?

Seriously, I'd say:

1) Hoping desperately that the reason they're keeping Andrew around isn't because he's picking up Mature!Xander's slack in the comic-relief department.

2) I dunno. I find the potentials kind of endearing, though the herd is a bit heavy, and Rona was really getting on my nerves this week.

3) I don't think Kennedy's a Mary Sue. I think she's the oldest of the potentials and has taken it upon herself to be Buffy's second-in-command. In that crowd of fifteen-and-sixteen-year-olds, someone has to be more mature. Kennedy seems like as good a den mother as anybody.

4) Can I have a Xander? Please?

5) My Dawn-lovin' heart is happy. Great ep for both Dawn and MT, who was brilliant the whole ep.

[> [> [> Re: Where is Chloe? -- swyrlz, 14:10:54 01/22/03 Wed

try looking at the mall

[> [> [> [> Told ya.*L -- Briar Rose, 17:37:12 01/22/03 Wed

LaLaine is a Disney contract player (on Lizzy McGuire) - so I doubted her run was gonna be long at any other non-Disney show.

But never the less, it should have been tied in somehow in the story line on why she wasn't there. That was a big gaffe by ME IMO>

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Told ya.*L -- Shambleau, 01:07:33 01/23/03 Thu

I heard that she had some contract obligation with Disney, but for this ep only. She'll be back. As for the question of where she was, they can easily fix the problem by having her show up with Giles and the Chinese potential. It would even work to keep up the suspense on whether Giles is alive or not, since he'd gone away with a girl who could pick up luggage and so forth and divert suspicion away from why he never touches anything.

[> Go, Sol! -- Vickie, 22:07:12 01/21/03 Tue

Consider me part of your appreciative audience, supporto-wise, in the nicotine abatement program

[> [> second that! -- anom, 23:17:30 01/21/03 Tue

Stick with it & quit!

& remember what I said in that smoking thread about a month ago! (or you could go look it up)

[> Wasted Potential (Spoilers for 7.12 and unspoiled spec) -- Sophist, 09:25:00 01/22/03 Wed

Chiming in to agree with all your criticisms and to add a few of my own. I thought this the weakest ep of the season so far, though I'm being patient because the January eps tend to be of the treading water variety.

1. As others have noted, they misplaced one of the SITs. The house isn't that big; did no one notice Chloe was missing?

2. The more I thought about Xander's speech to Dawn, the less sense it made. In a very important sense, Xander should not have been the one to deliver it. If he praises the virtues of helping despite having no special attributes, he's merely patting himself on the back. It's hard to see the nobility in that.

Even if we overlook that problem, do we really, in our heart of hearts, believe Xander? I don't, not really. There is nothing "extraordinary" about being ordinary. Listening to his speech made me imagine someone try to tell me "Listen, I know Martin Luther King and FDR did all those great things, but you, Sophist, although you haven't ever done anything special, are truly extraordinary." Uh, no. Just as we are evil when we do evil acts, we are special or extraordinary when we do special or extraordinary deeds.

Dawn did the right thing when she encouraged Amanda. But Dawn didn't "give up" anything real when she did; the slayer power was never hers. She deserves praise for realizing this and letting go of the idea. "Extraordinary"? That's Buffy in PG, not Dawn in "Potential".

3. I think (unspoiled spec) the episode had 2 misleads beyond the one pointed out by manwitch about Buffy's behavior and attitude: the whole "Dawn has no special power" thing, and the B/S relationship. I think Dawn does have some power that will be necessary at the end. If I'm right, Xander's speech has the effect of encouraging her to think she lacks special power when she both has it and it will be essential to the rest of the season.

I think B/S is also a misdirect. Just a hunch.

[> [> Can't agree (spoilers 7.12) -- Scroll, 09:49:23 01/22/03 Wed

2. The more I thought about Xander's speech to Dawn, the less sense it made. In a very important sense, Xander should not have been the one to deliver it. If he praises the virtues of helping despite having no special attributes, he's merely patting himself on the back. It's hard to see the nobility in that.

Maybe just my perspective but I don't see Xander as patting himself on the back. He's not congratulating himself on doing amazing things despite the lack of superpowers; he's commiserating with Dawn about the fact that they are often overlooked in the grand scheme of things--and teaching her that it's okay to be overlooked. That he understands her longing to be special, encouraging her not to be disheartened. I can't see Buffy delivering this speech to Dawn for one simple reason: Buffy does not understand what it's like to be ordinary. Xander does.

Even if we overlook that problem, do we really, in our heart of hearts, believe Xander? I don't, not really. There is nothing "extraordinary" about being ordinary. Listening to his speech made me imagine someone try to tell me "Listen, I know Martin Luther King and FDR did all those great things, but you, Sophist, although you haven't ever done anything special, are truly extraordinary." Uh, no. Just as we are evil when we do evil acts, we are special or extraordinary when we do special or extraordinary deeds.

I don't think comparing Martin Luther King and Sophist/all of us posters is a fair parallel to comparing Buffy/Slayers and Dawn/Xander since Martin Luther King was just a man. A great man, but with no superpowers the way Buffy has superpowers. He was extraordinary. Kind of the way Xander was extraordinary in "The Zeppo" (at least IMHO).

And so Xander is saying Dawn is extraordinary in the way Willow was extraordinary in "Choices" way back in Season 3. Way back when Willow's powers were negligible, she made the choice to fight evil, to give up Oxford and a brilliant academic career to stay in Sunnydale. In the same way, Dawn gave up a lot (yes, I know she never really had the Slayer power, but she gave up the dream of her Slayer power) with grace and humility. And when she realised she didn't have "the power", she didn't sulk or brood but immediately hit the books, working diligently to help save the world. Yes, she wasn't doing anything more than being an ordinary girl, but in that moment (as I watched her from Xander's POV) that girl was extraordinary.

Of course, JMHO :)

[> [> [> Re: Can't agree (spoilers 7.12) -- Sophist, 10:43:24 01/22/03 Wed

He's not congratulating himself on doing amazing things despite the lack of superpowers; he's commiserating with Dawn about the fact that they are often overlooked in the grand scheme of things--and teaching her that it's okay to be overlooked.

He started off with the commiserating, and to that point I was buying his speech (and loving it). The line about extraordinary, though, carried it too far. Dawn hasn't done anything extraordinary. What he should have done was emphasize the fine thing she did in letting go of the slayer idea and encouraging Amanda and encourage her to do more based on that. When he went beyond that to call her "extraordinary", he was telling us how he sees himself.

Let me make this clear. I don't think people need superpowers to do extraordinary deeds. I believe seemingly ordinary people can find it within themselves to do extraordinary deeds. No one knew in advance that Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King were extraordinary. We can only make those judgments after they did extraordinary things. Until one has done so, one is not extraordinary and shouldn't be told so.

I can't see Buffy delivering this speech to Dawn for one simple reason: Buffy does not understand what it's like to be ordinary. Xander does.

Buffy may have forgotten, but she herself was once an ordinary 16 year old girl. I think she does understand. I think Willow does too.

Dawn gave up a lot

She gave up a fantasy. We all have them, but it's dangerous to keep them if they prevent us from doing something we actually are capable of doing. Her decision here, praiseworthy though it was, did not involve the same sacrifices Willow and Xander have made. Dawn's not there yet, though she seems to be on her way.

[> [> [> [> Dawn, Xander: More than Ordinary (spoilers 7.12) -- Solitude1056, 12:09:12 01/22/03 Wed

I find myself agreeing with each side of this discussion, but I think I'm leaning more towards Scroll's version. First, I don't see (and have never seen) Xander as a character who thinks to pat himself on the back. He's always been just a little too lacking in self-confidence to put himself forward like that; hell, if he weren't, he'd be married right now.

Be that as it may, I think part of what Xander was doing for Dawn was what Buffy would've (and could've) done, were Buffy not busy saving the world. Again. Dawn lacks either parental figure, and her sole familial connection is too busy lecturing five strangers and speaking freely and repeatedly about their potential status predicated on her own death. So Buffy's a little preoccupied, and Dawn's trying hard to not impose. In some ways, I think Xander was paying attention to what I'd seen but not really noticed - that in most house-based scenes, where Buffy is dealing with the proto-Slayers, Dawn is always in the background, watching, listening, and reacting vicariously even if she's otherwise ignored by Buffy. I mean, really, talk about classic younger-sibling behavior.

Dawn's always done this to some extent, but now she does it without imposition. If we look back at season 4, every time Dawn shows up around the Scooby gang, she either tries to ingratiate herself in a badly unsubtle manner or she knocks something over and/or breaks something. Buffy is constantly telling Dawn, "and don't touch anything!" Now, however, Buffy reprimands Dawn - "eat your breakfast and don't be late for school" - almost as an afterthought. For the most part, she only barely registers Dawn's presence (or so it seems to me). The point I'm trying to make is that Dawn is learning how to listen and observe without also trying to make herself the center of attention.

Much of this is just part of growing up. I don't think Dawn is necessarily an unproven extraordinary, nor do I think she's just ordinary. I think her willingness to rip the picture in half, rather than let Buffy open the door to find Zombie!Joyce, was an extraordinary act of courage. I think her understanding and acceptance that the ritual had started and only her blood would close the portal also indicated an extraordinary level of love and courage as well. Time and again, with no real superhero powers of her own - only a self-confidence reminiscent of the younger siblings of martial artists, a la "it's okay, my brother's a black belt" kid logic - Dawn has gone after beasties and assorted bad guys with only her gut instinct and a sincere belief that one way or another she'll come through it because her sister always has.

I think part of that is because younger siblings see a condition as either contagious or exclusive. Some younger sibs I know have said, "she's the smart one," as if this explains why they're the athletic one. Others will say, "she's artistic, so I must be, too," going on the idea that the firstborn will display traits inherent to the family. With Buffy and Dawn sharing genetic basis, it's not surprising that Dawn would assume that anything Buffy can do, she can do at least to some extent. Her growing maturity, I think, centers on the fact that she's recognizing that she'll never be better, or even as good as, Buffy - and this doesn't seem to bother her anymore.

I think the most important aspect of the episode - all other issues aside - was that it made Dawn ask herself the question of whether she could, or would, be the Slayer, if it were an option. Her reaction that she'd freely give up the 'power' - and her fears that Joyce's message was related to Buffy's reaction to her proto-slayer status - and her relief/closure at the end - were all telling. Thing is, it's one thing to do, think, feel all that. Sometimes, when you're still only 15/16, you need family to applaud what you've done.

I mean, we all do extraordinary things. Stopping in the middle of a race to help a competitor who's fallen and hurt themselves is pretty extraordinary. Jumping into the freezing Potomac River to help crash victims out of the plane wreckage was extraordinary. Voting is not only extraordinary, in some areas of the world it's downright revolutionary. Saying no to alcohol when you're 16 and newly licensed can be an extraordinary act. How we each measure "extraordinary" is closely related to how we measure what makes a person "great."

In that sense, I don't think Xander was patting himself on the back so much as letting Dawn know that he's in the same boat of seeming ordinaryness, but that he's figured out that being ordinary, and trying anyway, may be the most extraordinary act of all. I never thought, for even a second, that he was reassuring himself or trying to convince himself. I don't think he needs to convince himself that he contributes - TtG/Grave showed him once and for all that it's possible to save the world despite being 'powerless'. What I do think he was doing, though, was applauding Dawn. He was doing what any parent would do for a child they're proud of, especially in a case where the child has given up something or acted otherwise nobly. It's the old speech about "I know that deep down you wish you'd done ____ rather than ____. I know it was hard to make that sacrifice, and I'm proud of you." Buffy is spread a little too thin with all the houseguests for her to be there for Dawn right now, so Xander filled in, and honestly I thought he did it far better than Buffy could've.

[> [> [> [> [> Good points -- Sophist, 13:15:45 01/22/03 Wed

I agree with 2 of your points about Xander: that he was paying attention to Dawn when others weren't, and that he was giving Dawn the same emotional support he's given Buffy in the past (The Freshman).

That said, I'm still inclined to see the overboard ending to his speech as reflecting an internal belief about himself that seemed unbecoming to me. Xander has, in fact, done extraordinary things, even from the very beginning (following Buffy into the tunnels in The Harvest was above and beyond the call). He deserves praise for those deeds. It's also fair to contrast Xander's lack of supernatural power with his willingness to do extraordinary deeds. It's just a little more seemly for someone else to do that for him.

Dawn is, I think, well on her way, whether she has supernatural gifts or not. The distinction I would make is this: in The Gift, Dawn was willing to jump, a noble sentiment; Buffy did jump, an extraordinary act. When Dawn makes that transition from impulse to deed, she'll deserve the appellation.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Good points -- shambleau, 14:11:17 01/22/03 Wed

Xander spent the summer telling the Summers girls his story of saving Willow and the world "with my WORDS" ad nauseum, so I see that as support for Sophist's belief that there's a component of tooting his own horn in that speech. It may be slightly unseemly, yes. It's also human and understandable. He's flawed even when he does something wonderful, but that doesn't diminish him in my eyes. I want to strangle the big lug sometimes and then he'll do something so full of heart I feel like bowing down before him. Here you can read a little of both aspects of his nature into the speech he gave Dawn, if you're so inclined. It doesn't affect my reaction, though. The speech still has me dosing myself with allergy medicine, for those watery eyes, you know.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Good points -- Malandanza, 23:09:55 01/22/03 Wed

"When Dawn makes that transition from impulse to deed, she'll deserve the appellation."

I agree with you that Dawn does not yet "deserve the appellation" -- however, I don't think that's the point. Xander called the others special, but Dawn extraordinary -- obvious hyperbole. Going back to your MLK analogy: let's say you are MLK's son and he's organizing a big civil rights demonstration that you desperately wish to be a part of. He's gathering people about your age -- the ones he feels are best suited to assist the cause and you find out from his inner circle of friends that you are going to be chosen. And then find out that it was just a big misunderstanding -- he never had any intention of including you because you aren't extraordinary -- you aren't even special.

This was Dawn's biggest disappointment in her life -- it was crushing. She reacted in a very adult manner, but it was clear she was hurting. Xander deserves credit not for saying an ordinary girl is extraordinary, but for making her feel, however briefly, as though she were.

The self-congratulatory parts were mostly just Xander establishing his credentials, I think. The speech wouldn't have had the same resonance if Giles (chosen at birth to be a watcher, cool Ripper alter-ego, dabbler in magic) had said the same to Dawn -- and I think Giles would have been less aware of Dawn than was Xander -- he tends to focus on Buffy to the exclusion of the others.

Now, if only someone would have this talk with poor Andrew!

[> [> [> [> Re: Can't agree (spoilers 7.12) -- JM, 12:36:25 01/22/03 Wed

Hmm. . . .Not seeing that at all. Was one of the few times BtVS actually made me cry.

I think that if BtVS is really, as Marti said in her interview, about being an exceptional, gifted individual, like Joss is a genius, then last night was what it's like to be the rest of us. The mediocre, not gifted, of only modest innate talents. The difference between being Buffy and being Dawn is not the distinction between MLK and the rest of us, it's the distinction between Mozart and the rest of us. One we can be inspired by and aspire to emulate, the other we can only admire and enjoy. One of the parts of growing up is discovery that we, most of us, are not prodigies. We may be special and unique, but not any more special than most of the rest of the general population.

And I think, especially when one is surrounded by terribly, innately gifted people (not just aware of their existence), the realization can be all the harder to accept. It's very easy to develop self-hatred, bitterness, and resentment. It's much harder to admire and support those we are close to who will always outshine us.

What Xander was telling Dawn was that it is not the size of gifts we are born with that define our worth, but how we choose to live our lives. He saw that Dawn was reacting to her ordinariness with grace and generosity. He admires that greatly because there were quite a few times between sixteen and twenty-two that he reacted with self-loathing and a little bitterness by being the least innately talented person he knew. He was proud because he saw her almost naturally developing the mature perspective that he has arrived at himself, much later.

[> [> [> [> [> Prodigies -- Sophist, 13:36:25 01/22/03 Wed

The difference between being Buffy and being Dawn is not the distinction between MLK and the rest of us, it's the distinction between Mozart and the rest of us.

This is really a tangent to the main point, but. I think that most of the time people are too quick to attribute some special quality to greatness. "Mozart had some mental ability that I don't have; I could never be him." I doubt this is true. What I think Mozart had was the good fortune to find his life's passion much earlier than most and that he then devoted the hard work necessary to make the most of that passion. If BtVS is sending out the message that only those who are specially gifted can be great, I'd find that a distressing message.

The problem with Xander's speech was that it reinforced, to some degree, this unfortunate conclusion. On the one hand, Xander was saying "You (like me) will never be like them." This is just not so in real life. Even on the show, it's not really true -- Xander himself has done extraordinary deeds. The lack of superpowers would not prevent Dawn from being extraordinary.

On the other hand, merely being ordinary is not itself sufficient ground for being called "extraordinary". Handing out an undeserved accolade may be encouraging, but it may also reinforce the belief that you don't need to do any more than you're already doing.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Still Disagree I Think -- JM, 14:01:40 01/22/03 Wed

Some people have inborn innate gifts that most of the people around them will never be able to approach. Mozart was writing symphonies at five (or something like that). That was something more than just luck at finding his calling.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I'm basing it on what I saw in college. Our little private school kept itself afloat with a number of interesting programs. One of them was providing a college education to teenage geniuses (some as young as twelve). These girls were incredibly intelligent. Many of them had near photographic memories, could pick up languages with preternatural swiftness, could do complex calculations in their heads, grasp and develop complex philosophical concepts. Their talents were often as much a burden as a boon (and many of them had horrible study habits), but they were very real, and nothing the rest of us could approach, no matter how hard we studied. There was something different about how their minds worked, what they were innately capable of. No amount of passion or luck or circumstances could conterfeit it.

Maybe it's a lot of projection on my part but that's exactly what I heard in Xander's little monologue. And I didn't hear only the gifted can be great, just the opposite. The rest of us can't be gifted if we're not, but our responsibility to help out, live right, acheive, contribute is no less because of our ordinariness.

[> Re: Gritting my teeth and enjoying the most recent episode. -- Shiraz, 11:44:46 01/22/03 Wed

"2. Can the proto-slayers get any more snarky?

Several times I found myself thinking of my Southern grandmother's expression, "she's drinking her milk out of a bowl today." (Cain't hep it, I'm from Georgia.) The whole lot of them were catty, and awfully impudent about it. Let's see, would I make fun of a woman who could break me in half without breaking a sweat, and has repeatedly shown herself to be the only thing standing between me and an expiration date the length of Shrubya's attention span? Gee, no, I think I'd be going out of my way to just smile and ignore any idiosyncracies."

While I see your point, I actually beleive that they should have been more snarky, not less, and I'll tell you why.

Like you I found Buffy's lectures long-winded, tedious, repetive, and full of it. They may have been necessary, but they were full-on dull to watch. Now we've seen this kind of lecturing before, from Giles in season one, but it was much more entertaining then.

Why? Because Buffy and Xander were there to mock him when he started laying it on too thick. Here, there was none of that, just Buffy laying on platitude after platitude, and nobody called her on it. ("Destiny blah-blah..Death blah-blah... Instincts blah-blah") Buffy herself didn't put up with this, why should the proto-slayers? Besides which, it'd be karmic payback if she had to deal with the same kind of attitude she layed on Giles for so long.

"4. Are there any Mary Sue traits Kennedy hasn't shown so far?

Now she's the perky one, doing her outright best to magnamimously welcome Amanda into the group. No, girls, let's not all gloat for even a second longer about our own four-on-one miniscule victory, do let's hear from our new best friend!"

Validation! I have received validation! Thank you Sol!

In any case, I though Kennedy wasn't as over the top this episode as last. She wasn't trying to sleep with Willow, or revealing any more improbable skills ("Oh, let me cast that spell, Wil, I've been doing magic since I was nine! By the way, is there a warp core around here I can repair?"). Moreover, she was a part of the team! Learning with the rest of them instead of already knowing everything.

Enjoyed your post.
Thanks a lot!

-Shiraz

[> [> LOL! Kennedy quotes we were expecting... -- Solitude1056, 12:17:13 01/22/03 Wed

Oh, my! I do love this quote - definitely my favorite of the month:

"Oh, let me cast that spell, Wil, I've been doing magic since I was nine! By the way, is there a warp core around here I can repair?"

Bwahahaha!

[> [> [> Thank you, -- Shiraz, 12:51:08 01/22/03 Wed

It came to me in a rare fit of brilliance.

Living in your shadow...impressions on Potential (Spoilers 7.12, Tonight's Btvs) -- shadowkat, 20:08:23 01/21/03 Tue

Living in Your Shadow...or Wanting to HAve Potential, to be The Chosen One.

When watching this episode - it helps to figure out who the main character or emotional arc is - who's the main pov.

Is it Buffy? Spike? Willow? Xander? Dawn? Anya? Giles?
Andrew? Proto-Slayers? The FE's? Uhm is it just me or does anyone else think we have one too many characters in this TV show and it's high time they slaughter a few? (My vote is for Rona, Vi, Molly and Andrew - keep Amanda, Kennedy.)

This episode in many ways reminded me of Lessons and Help.
And the pov - or main pov was really the SIT's, Dawn, Amanda, and Xander with the focal point or emotional arc being Dawn's - the other three pov's as a means of emphasing Dawn's emotional arc. They gave us a hint it would be Dawn with the first flashback in what happened previously - being Willow coming in on poor Dawn in the wrecked living room.

Okay - first things first, as I was watching this episode, I thought what is it about the character of Dawn that just isn't grabbing me this year? I loved her in Season 5, but she seems to be, less gripping at the moment. I had this thought in the first half of the episode, I changed my mind towards the end - which is the only reason I'm bringing it up. And I was having troubles with the episode in the first half - way too many characters - half of which I could care less about - had this same problem in Help btw, the other episode written by Rebecca Rand Kirshner. In many ways this episode reminded me of HELP, also it reintroduced a character from HELP - Amanda, the most realistic looking teen girl I've seen on TV, sort of plain faced, not overly cute or attractive, nice to see, a real tom boy. I love Amanda - she reminds me of me.

The reason I brought up Lessons, Help and the fact Dawn annoyed me at first, is the episode is about Dawn and in a way Xander and mostly about those of us in life who don't feel exceptional, or special. Who don't get rewards or accolades. Who just manage somehow to make it through each day, doing a job. We don't have special powers, or high i.q's or are "chosen". Hence the repeated and highly annoying references to Star Wars by the annoying Andrew.
I loved Xander's line - "if you even think about saying Star Wars or skywalker again, I'll hit you". Please Xander - hit him. I really really want you to. Is it just me or is this guy grating on anyone else's nerves? Kill him. Let him go. Get rid of him. Please. All he does is repeat himself. I swear, I think the writers are literally copying Andrew's dialogue and rewording it slightly in every script. (sorry for the rant). But I bring up Andrew for a reason - if Dawn feels left out not being a potential slayer, not chosen, Andrew feels left out not being a formerly evil vampire who can help train proto-slayers. Dawn = Buffy, Andrew = Spike.
Both feel neglected and left out. They envy Buffy and Spike. More to the point - they envy the proto-slayers.

So backing up a bit here - we have the proto-slayers, who don't want to be chosen, who are terrified, and keep complaining about being chosen and why is it them and why do they have to do this and how lame this is. Then we have the characters training them, who feel unsure of themselves and are struggling to hide it, the power adults - Willow,
Buffy and Spike. Then finally we have the characters who wish they were special and feel sort of useless: Andrew, Dawn and Xander.

At the beginning of the episode - our sympathy is with the special ones - the proto-slayers. Andrew and Dawn are slightly irritating. Xander seems to be in the background.
As the episode progresses, we begin to slowly seep into Dawn's pov, but at the same time - we see someone who feels weird, unaccepted, and different and doesn't know why, Amanda. But the pov is still strongly on Dawn, we are never
fully in Amanda's pov. (In the same way in season 1, Welcome to the Hellmouth - we were never fully in Willow's.)

In Lessons - Buffy is teaching Dawn how to kill a vampire. It's just the two of them. In Potential - Dawn is at home studying, while Buffy and Spike teach the proto-slayers.
In Help - Buffy, Dawn and Xander are camping out in coffins to sneak up on a vampire. In Potential - Buffy, Spike leave the protoslayers in a crypt to fight a vampire.

Who is left behind in Potential? Who is with Buffy in the beginning of the season?

Dawn - we begin to see is feeling more and more ignored and left out by big sis. Big sis keeps emphasizing how important all the proto-slayers are and if anything happens to her, if she dies, one of them will become the slayer.
(Uhm, actually no Buffy - if that was true one of them would already be the slayer - you died in The Gift. Just because you were brought back shouldn't change that - it didn't in Prophecy Girl. No, hon, if anything happens to Faith - we get a new slayer - unless of course the writers have either forgotten this or they've retconned it in some way or they are deliberately trying to mislead us and have forgotten we've watched and analyzed every fiber of every episode... at any rate..this doesn't have much bearing on how Dawn feels, which is left out.) Dawn feels pretty much the same way she did in Older and Far Away, unimportant. She went from being Big Sis's number one helper, to being useless.

Then something marvelous happens - they discover there's a potential slayer living in Sunnydale. The Seer at the Coven can't see who it is. (Agree with Anya - not such a great Seer). Giles is apparently in China getting another proto-slayer - which means a) Giles is definitely not the FE and substantial and b) ASH had to go back to London to film something and c) we get another proto-slayer, whoopee. (Can we at least get rid of Vi or Molly first? Guess not.)
Anyways, Willow does her mojo, which apparently is quite smelly, and the mojo hits poor Dawn as she's about to open the door to let it out. Dawn and the SG immediately jump to the conclusion that Dawn is the potential slayer.

Dawn is overwhelmed by this news. Not sure whether to be delighted or scared. But it does give her a glow. Finally she can be seen as vital by Big Sis again. But she can't deal with SG and needs time alone, so off she goes to think. And runs smack dab into Amanda, who is doing the sensible thing after having locked a weird looking maniac in the school classroom - getting help. Granted the school counselor seems a tad schizoid, but she's nice and according to the rumor mill has handled things like this before. Dawn - thinks this is the perfect opportunity to prove her slayer potential and goes off to get the vamp on her own.

Buffy meanwhile is doing the same thing with the proto-slayers - do it on your own - only way to learn.

What happens next - turned the episode for me. Up to this point, I was sort of treading water, and a little bored.
Granted the scenes with Spike are always interesting - but he isn't given anything to do. He's well not as entertaining with the soul. Contained. MAture. Adult. With just a little bit of a sly smile. Give him something to do.
Buffy is also getting a tad dull. So it wasn't until the Bringers showed up and Dawn realized Amanda (yes!!) was the potential and she wasn't that I leaned forward on the edge of my couch and went okay...now this is interesting.

The best scenes were towards the end. Dawn after searing the harbringers with gas and flames, gets Amanda out of there (I was sure Amanda was a goner) and gives Amanda the power. I'm not the one with the potential she tells Amanda, you are. HEre - you have to do this - take the power, prove yourself and Amanda stakes her first vampire, all by herself. Xander witnesses the whole thing. And then Amanda asks what the heck is going on...a perplexed Buffy and Spike struggling to handle it. (I did wonder what must be going through Spike's mind during all of this - I mean the guy used to kill slayers - here he is training potentials and watching them deal with idea that they could become a slayer and die, as well as dealing with Buffy saying this over and over. At times I thought I saw a glint of the old Spike inside - the one from Fool For Love and Dead Things...but not quite.)

Then came the whole point of the piece - Xander's speech which explained Xander and Dawn and what makes Xander and Dawn different than Andrew, and possibly why we have to put up with Andrew. The difference is simple - Dawn and Xander sit alongside/fight alongside powerful people, people who are chosen, and they don't whine or ask to get hurt or ask why - they let the "powerful" people do their things. But meanwhile, quietly in the background they do exceptional things themselves. Xander is the one who takes a moment to sit down with Dawn and let her know she's important - he does it, not Buffy, Willow, or Anya - no one else notices.
(It is a moment that touched me as much as the scene between Spike and Dawn in Tough Love - where Spike told her she wasn't evil.) But it was more than that - it spoke to the rest of us as well. If you go back through the years - you'll realize the small things Xander did that changed the Buffyverse. Yes, he plays the typical sidekick role, the female supporting character to the male action hero in most things, but the things he does are extraordinary - without Xander - Willow may have destroyed the world, Buffy would be dead, the school would have been blown up, Anya may still be a vengeance demon...any number of things. And Dawn - she also did a difficult and important thing - without superpowers - she saved a potential slayers life both from a vampire and from harbringers and she thrust the accolades on the potential and asked for no thanks in return. That is something and it is important. Possibly in some ways as important and meaningful as the training Buffy gives the potentials. It moved me, because too often in my life I've been Dawn or Xander. And it also reminded me of a moment last week while it was snowing in front of a subway station, when a Xander-like friend gave me a two-word Xander like speech and made me feel like Dawn - extraordinary.

Final comments:

Dawn is turning out to be the most attractive female cast member on the show. She was drop-dead goregous in that final scene. Watch out Gellar.

Sorry - don't like the proto-slayers, if they are planning a spin-off with these gals? I won't be watching that much, even if Spike is their watcher.

Can we please either gag Andrew or get rid of him or make him evil again? Everything about him is grating. And okay, getting sick of the lame and somewhat obscure pop culture references. For those of you who don't know it DragonBall Z is a japanese anime cartoon that airs on weekdays on cartoon network. Not a favorite of mine. And yes - I get the whole metanarration on Spike Season 4...I got it in Never LEave Me - either do something with it or move on.

Way too crowded a cast - we are spending less and less time with the main characters - especially Anya, Spike, Willow and Xander.

What's up with Giles already? I'm assuming he's real and substantial now and somehow fought off the harbringers with his mojo, unless told otherwise.

Did anyone tell Buffy what the Bejolx eye said?

How is Dawn dealing with Spike now? How is everyone dealing with Spike? Have they just accepted him back into the fold? And where the heck is he staying? Buffy's house? Xander's?
He doesn't appear to be in the basement.

Why haven't they fired Buffy yet? She's the most bizare guidance counselor I've seen. The kids think she's schizoid, don't blame them.

Oh - I noticed Spike grimace. It's not his chest, it was his head, but it was hard to tell in this episode. And geeze they certainly kept emphasizing the sexual tension between Buffy and Spike - with the proto-slayers comments and Buffy's confusing speech to Amanda.

Outside of those comments I liked the episode. Give it a B or 6/10 - possibly a 7 for the last few scenes alone.

Agree? Disagree? Hope it made sense.

SK

PS: New Angel tomorrow night! Can't wait. Rerun of Help next week on Btvs..sigh.

[> Re: Living in your shadow...impressions on Potential (Spoilers 7.12, Tonight's Btvs) -- manwitch, 20:38:14 01/21/03 Tue

I certainly agree with your point about Dawn being Drop-Dead Gorgeous. Maybe I should've written that post after all and gotten it out of my system.

I think I liked the episode a bit more than you did. I agree in principle with what you say. Dawn reminded me of Xander in the Zeppo. I always thought the interesting thing about that episode was that it was only about Xander to the degree that he "became" Buffy. He chose to do what he had to do to save the world, alone, even though no one would ever know what he did or how things might otherwise have been. Dawn reminded me of that, although she wasn't in quite the same situation, because even though she turned out not to be Chosen, she neverthless chose to play the role. I mean, I think she's being unfair to herself. She put that fire hydrant in the vampire's face. Twice. And she toasted those bringers. That's not just being misguided. She's incredibly courageous.

I think Dawn still has an enormous role to play in this season. I have a great concern over what this First Evil and training business is doing to Buffy's ego. She's getting really obsessed with being the Slayer. And it might ultimately be up to Dawn to break through that ego. Because really, its never been being the Slayer that made Buffy special. I think at some point, if Buffy wants to top the First Evil, she's gonna have to let go of this Chosen One thing. I can't articulate how it would work. Its just a feeling. Ego is a mark of separation from others. And like I've said before, I think this First Evil is all about separation.

[> [> You're on to something (spoilers 7.12, unspoiled specs) -- Scroll, 20:55:38 01/21/03 Tue

I have a great concern over what this First Evil and training business is doing to Buffy's ego. She's getting really obsessed with being the Slayer. And it might ultimately be up to Dawn to break through that ego. Because really, its never been being the Slayer that made Buffy special. I think at some point, if Buffy wants to top the First Evil, she's gonna have to let go of this Chosen One thing.

What I think we're going to see (just spec, I'm completely unspoiled) is Buffy coming to realise that she's not the Real Slayer and that the power she wields doesn't rightfully belong to her anymore. She seems to think that if she dies, the next Slayer will be chosen. I'm of the opinion that her belief is wrong, that the line now flows through Faith. Ever since her death in S1, Buffy has been "out of line" with the Slayer power. Perhaps Dawn will be the one to teach Buffy to let go of being all Chosen, all Destinied. Just be like other girls.

[> [> [> I like it Scroll -- Helen, 03:16:27 01/22/03 Wed

Buffy is not the Slayer, and hasn't been since Prophecy Girl. She is an anomoly, she shouldn't even be alive (in the proper order of things) let alone whielding the power of the Chosen One. T

his is what made Faith-in-Buffy's declaration in Who are You "I'm the Slayer, the one and only" so heart-wrenching for me. Yes you are Faith. I remember in a season 3 episode when she had pretty much crossed the line, Faith ranting about how she's supposed to be the chosen one, and there's someone else living her life. Buffy complains in Amends that she's being Single White Femaled, but the opposite is true. She was doing it to Faith.

[> [> [> Has the 'power' of the slayer been divided? Making them weaker? -- Spike Lover, 08:51:10 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Nah. It hasn't hurt Buffy & Faith. -- SingedCat, 09:25:40 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> Agree on Buffy and FE -- shadowkat, 21:08:23 01/21/03 Tue

think Dawn still has an enormous role to play in this season. I have a great concern over what this First Evil and training business is doing to Buffy's ego. She's getting really obsessed with being the Slayer. And it might ultimately be up to Dawn to break through that ego. Because really, its never been being the Slayer that made Buffy special. I think at some point, if Buffy wants to top the First Evil, she's gonna have to let go of this Chosen One thing. I can't articulate how it would work. Its just a feeling. Ego is a mark of separation from others. And like I've said before, I think this First Evil is all about separation.

Agree...my gut is saying the exact same things. I think this year has a lot to do with the fact that there is evil in everyone. And I agree with you - the FE is about separation. Each time it appears that's it's purpose to separate people. It's what it attempted to do as EVE with the proto-slayers and it's what it keeps trying to do with Buffy and Spike.

Buffy has always believed - you eradicate evil. You find it. You stop it. But sometimes it's not that easy. Sometimes by eradicating it you eradicate good too. (Which is why I keep wondering if anyone told her what the eye said or did the EYE attempt to do the same thing - cause separation.) Buffy also has been leaning on being the slayer a bit much this year. Her ego has gotten quite big.

I keep coming back to the same thing - FE keeps pretending to be Buffy, why? - and the Buffy it pretends to be is arrogant, egotistical, and thrilled with self-importance.
In Lessons as Buffy - it says: "It's about power!"
Also the first seems to want to keep Buffy alive. (Could be wrong here...but something tells me this is so.)

The final thing that makes me think that you're right - is Buffy's repeated view that she affects the slayer line - her alone. Nope. It's Faith. Buffy has never seen Faith as that important. I think Faith is vital, always has been. Angel knew this. Buffy...not so much.

Buffy in season 4 defined herself to Riley as Slayer, The.
To the Potentials - I'm THE Slayer. There's no one else.

And in Selfless - I'm The Law she tells Xander and Willow - there's no one else.

With Spike - I believe in you. You're alive because I choose it.

With all the heart imagery and the idea we're all connected and the whole thing about being who you are deep down - I'm wondering if Buffy's big epiphany may very well be that she is at her core just Buffy and that she doesn't need the power - that being chosen, being a superpower isn't who she is. It's her ability to connect and bring others together that is her strength or as the guide stated: "your love is blinding" - what Dawn has as well - the ability to choose
to put yourself on the line to save someone else with the cards against you. I think her ego and the power is what has always separated her, but who she is at heart is what connects her. Just as it is Spike's vampirism that separates him but his soul and (even without the soul) human love for Buffy and her friends through her that connected him. Andrew in contrast can't connect - because he is a cipher - he wants power but doesn't realize what Dawn and Xander already know - power comes from within - it's not something your given.

I agree with your original statement, I think Dawn will be important in this, like she was in The Gift and Grave - a way for Buffy to see past her ego.

[> [> [> [> You asked for it and you're going to get it.........soon. -- Rufus, 05:13:38 01/23/03 Thu

If Buffy is going to discover that her Slayer powers are sourced in the First and/or if she will feel through a need for more power to become something darker. Buffy's true power which has been one of love and has compelled the transformation of other characters may lie in what is Buffy not Slayer. This may be what the First meant by "What you do only makes me stronger" and Joyce's warnings.

All I will say is......Buffy Is the Slayer.

[> [> Re: Living in your shadow...impressions on Potential (Spoilers 7.12, Tonight's Btvs) -- AgnosticSorcerer, 02:44:34 01/22/03 Wed

"I think Dawn still has an enormous role to play in this season. I have a great concern over what this First Evil and training business is doing to Buffy's ego."

Curious, the following is more musings that may or may not make coherent sense.

Buffy's ego does seem to be showing lately, however, I am still undecided whether or not this is a good thing. Assuming it's a bad thing, it would make perfect sense as to why the First Evil would chose Buffy as one of its main avatars.

If I remember my Abrahamic religions correctly, Satan was an angel who was expelled from heaven because of his ego. He was said to have been Yahweh's favorite--the chosen, eventually he began to believe that he was on equal par with Yahweh and that he should not have to take orders from him. Could the First Evil /be/ the ego that comes from power?

Isaiah 14:12-15
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

[> [> [> Re: Living in your shadow...impressions on Potential (Spoilers 7.12, Tonight's Btvs) -- J, 13:26:43 01/22/03 Wed

Could the First Evil /be/ the ego that comes from power?

Wow.

[> 'Maybe that's your power.': My Thoughts on 'Potential' (spoilers) -- Rob, 21:00:28 01/21/03 Tue

I would rank the episode much higher, actually, all the way up to 10, not only on the strength of its last scene (which was one of the best scenes in the show's history, IMHO), but on the episode as a whole. Because it worked perfectly for me, and struck every correct chord. Perhaps the episode's highest achievement for me was the fact that although I had heard rumors that Dawn would be a potential and I was actually not happy about that to begin with, I actually was disappointed by the end when she found out she wasn't going to be the Slayer. And then the final scene with Xander crystallized the theme of the episode perfectly, and was so darn moving, especially because we haven't heard enough from Xander in a long, long time. I liked the bond he shares with Dawn now. I also liked the comparison between Andrew and Dawn, both of them who seemed to feel disappointed at being left out of the training.

I loved the examination of the mythology that continued in this episode. The discussion between Willow, Xander, and Anya about Dawn. Anya's brilliant line about "not getting" the "same blood" thing. The ME writers clearly must be reading the messageboards! I can't remember all the references, but I thought the whole discussion about finding out you're the Slayer was brilliant (and Xander's wisdom, at the end of the episode...that finding out you're not the Slayer can be even more special). I loved the big Clem revelation...and the fact that Clem was on at all. That was a great suprise.

What else did I love? I loved seeing Buffy at work again, and found it interesting that she is able to counsel people so well while on the Slayer job, but not so well in the school environment. I loved the little nod to "Normal Again" with the "high-functioning schizophrenic" line.

I was riveted to this episode from the very beginning. I loved the Buffy/Spike training. I loved the little flinch Spike gave when Buffy kept referring to vampires as "animals." And, sorry, but I love Andrew. I love how he has the ultimate punishment--going from having two friends who understood him completely to being trapped in a house full of people, none of whom "get" him, neither his personality nor his obscure pop culture references. "Is there a language that you're speaking?" Dawn asked in "Showtime." To put your mind at ease about Andrew, I'm sure that he's going to have some integral part to play as the season continues. Otherwise, I doubt he would have been brought back in the first place.

I agree that the cast is a bit crowded, but I really felt satisfied with the time each character got this week, because, although no one got a huge part, most of them had quality material while they were on camera. I couldn't rank this ep anything less than 10 out of 10, even though I do have to completely filter out the Potentials (except for Amanda and the British girl) out of memory bank in order to enjoy it fully. I'm sorry, but Rona drives me crazy. I want to go all Harbinger on her ass myself!! That "black girl always dies first" line too was too much of a groaner for words, and the joke is way too old. We've heard it before in the "Scream" films, the 'Scary Movie" films, and tons of other rip-offs of said movies. The thing is, the parts I loved, I loved so much that I can't bear to deduct from the episode based on my few quibbles. I really just hope that the Potentials end up being a bit more interesting, because I get why they have to be there, but they're just taking up space...and taking time away from the people I want to see and hear! Oh, and please don't let Kennedy be the next Slayer! She's way too pushy. I don't like her whole sardonic, bad-ass-wannabe nature.

Rob

[> [> Re: The next slayer -- bas, 21:53:02 01/21/03 Tue

You know if there is going to be a next slayer, I bet it'll be the one we haven't seen yet. It would be just like ME to do that.

I have to agree with the others that Buffy does seem a bit too militant over the last couple of episodes. On the other hand, she may just be doing what she assumes is expected of her in the role of teacher and general.

Loved Dawnie, Loved Xander, Actually I love'em all, that is the main cast, not the proto slayers. If I could have one wish fulfilled by ME, it would be, please could we have some core scoobies scenes that makes my eyes water and my heart gush. Yes laugh if you want, but I really need scoobie closeness for more than an odd moment. I want baskets full of them.

[> [> [> I know exactly what you mean. ('Potential' spoilers) -- Rob, 22:36:14 01/21/03 Tue

They need an episode that focuses ONLY on Buffy, Xander, Willow and Dawn...with possibly a little Spike thrown in for good measure. I want some Scooby-bonding, especially with the show probably ending soon. I really am enjoying this season, but at times I keep thinking okay, only 13 episodes left...only 12...now only 11...less than half a season to go. They need time to reveal all the secrets about what's been going on AND have character moments. I truly hope that the core Scoobies don't continue to have as little bonding time as they have the past bunch of weeks. I would tend to think that the problem is mostly because we've had 3 episodes that have been stretched over a period of two months, and the past two of which have had a week break in between each (and we have another week break coming up now). When you actually think about it, the lack of group Scoobyness has really been just in "Bring on the Night," "Showtime" and (to a much lesser extent) "Potential." It's really just felt like longer. That's not to say I haven't loved the past few episodes. I adored BotN (although I know not everyone did), liked Showtime with reservations, and adored Potential. But I agree. There definitely does need to be more focus on our characters for this season to end up being the best so far. The thing is that for all intents and purposes, this is a very strong season. Unlike most seasons, I haven't sensed a dip in quality in the mid episodes. I have however noticed a lot of action, not enough character moments.

"Potential" was a definite improvement. The thing about it that I loved is that, while it did advance the storyline a bit, it was really a standalone episode DISGUISED as a story arc episode. It focused on the idea of whether Dawn was the next Slayer. What would happen? What would the reactions be? By the end of the episode, not much more in the story arc was advanced besides the protos getting a little more training, and them discovering Amanda. The bulk of the story was all Dawnie's and, by the end, Xander's, and I for one was glad that we had an episode focusing on a character, after the last two, which (although they had some character moments) were more about moving the epic plot along.

I apologize for any repetitions or redundancy. I feel like I may have made the same point over and over again, but I'm too tired to edit!

Rob

[> [> [> [> plot and boot camp -- M, 00:08:21 01/22/03 Wed

This season has been more about plot it seems to me. They have neglected what made the show great, the characters and their relationships, what made the show unique. They jumped into the Big Bad right from the first ep in a way they never do. I didn't mind it so much at first but then it started to get to me. That's why I liked this ep. It gave two characters more depth.

I think that the SIT's need to stop whining. Maybe they should just have them in the background. I really like the idea of Buffy leading a boot camp in the backyard for everyone (Scoobies, Andrew, and Dawn included.) Think of the hilarity!

[> [> [> [> [> Examining the Characters and Plots of Season 7. (aired ep spoils) -- Rob, 07:42:04 01/22/03 Wed

I don't think that Season 7, on the whole, has put the plot before the characters. Let's break it down, episode by episode.

Although the FE was introduced in "Lessons," it took a back seat after that. And "Lessons" really did, at the same time, btw, focus on all the characters.

"Beneath You" started out with the Scoobies trying to find the Big Bad but ended up focusing on Spike and the Xander/Nancy/Ronnie subplot.

"Same Time, Same Place" was totally about Willow. I don't know if the FE was mentioned at all.

"Help," again, about Buffy. No FE to speak of.

"Selfless." All about Anya with some interesting character goodness from everyone. No FE. Except for the "beneath you" shout-out from D'Hoffryn at the end.

"Him." Wacky character fun all around. No FE.

(In fact, around that time, I was getting frustrated that we weren't hearing ANYTHING about the Big Bad.)

Then...Conversations with Dead People came!! An episode that not only brought the FE back but focused on Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Jonathan and Andrew. The characters, again, at this point, still more important than the plot.

Sleeper followed, and the focus was on Spike, but again the FE was in the background. We did get the England stuff going on, but the main point again was character development with Spike and Buffy.

Then Never Leave Me, 75% of which was character-driven. It was only the last act where all the epicy stuff started to happen. Which I loved, btw.

Bring on the Night (an episode that I loved but a lot of people didn't) is where the plot started coming fast and heavy, and the character development took a back seat to trying to find out the FE's plans. And I don't think that's such a bad thing. It needed to be done after so many episodes of not speaking of the Big Bad.

Showtime was the second episode in a row where the plot was more important than the characters.

But then we got Potential, where again, the characters started to become more important. Dawn and Xander, particularly but there was also some nice interaction between Buffy and Spike, as well as an appearance by Clem.

I think that most people are making broad generalizations about the whole season being less character-driven, just because the past couple of episodes have been so spread out that it feels like it's been going on longer than it actually has. There were really only 2 episodes where the characters took a backseat to the plot, and I'd argue that not only were there still some good character moments here and there, but that those 2 episodes were probably necessary to kick the story arc into gear, since there had been very little Big Bad-development before them.

This is similar to last year, where most people forgot by mid-season that the general opinion was that the first quarter of sixth season episodes were very strong. By midseason, most people just thought the whole season sucked (which was not my opinion, of course). And these episodes are better than last season's winter eps!

So try to see this in the perspective of how many eps actually aired, and not the time frame we're seeing them in. In a perfect world, we would have seen Never Leave Me one week, Bring on the Night the next, Showtime the next, Potential the next, and whatever episode follows that the next. The plot at this point I don't think is SUPPOSED to be stretched out as far as it is, but that's a necessary evil of network programming. I'm very looking forward to sweeps, so that we can have a nice group of episodes in a row. It helps the season flow much better.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Actually....... -- Rufus, 05:20:11 01/23/03 Thu

There has been loads of exposition in the past few eps so get ready for sweeps. You are right about the staggering of episodes. I remember season four and five and six people got cranky because there were episodes that seemed to go nowhere....until you are able to look back in retrospect and see just how much information we got in the "nowhere" episodes. As a spoiler trollop I can say that I'm very happy with what's coming up.

[> [> Clem wasn't? -- luna (the slow one), 19:00:09 01/22/03 Wed

Sorry, I totally missed something (not unusual--that's why I need to read this board!) Howcome Clem wasn't Clem?

[> [> [> Re: Clem wasn't? -- Rob, 08:03:37 01/23/03 Thu

Umm...not sure if I get your question. Clem was on. That was really him, but he showed to the Potentials something none of us knew before, that he could transform his face into something a bit scarier than we'd thought him capable of.

Rob

[> The Cool Crowd and the Outsiders ('Potential' spoilers) -- cjl, 22:27:12 01/21/03 Tue

The one thing that struck me--quite dramatically--about "Potential" was the remarkable turnaround in the social pecking order in this series. In the beginning, Cordelia and her minions were the cool crowd in high school, with Buffy and the slayerettes on the outside, and Giles as their mentor in weirdness.

Now it seems as if Buffy and her legion of wannabe slayerettes are the cool crowd and Dawn and Andrew are the geeks and outsiders, with Xander as their guide in how to deal with not being part of the popular crowd and (perhaps) helping them realize greater truths that the "in-crowd" seems to be missing.

Interesting...

[> [> Good point ('Potential' spoilers) -- ponygirl, 08:35:11 01/22/03 Wed

Especially since BtVS is based on the idea of the outsiders triumphing, the subversion of our traditional ideas and power structures. Now we having Buffy as the authority figure giving the SITs the same speech she had soundly rejected when Giles gave it to her -- you have a destiny, you are chosen. To be special. Above. That leaves a lot of people beneath you. The ordinary. The losers. The "animals".

What is Xander or Dawn going to see that Buffy will not? Hmm.

[> [> [> Wow, did she really say that? -- Rahael, 08:44:38 01/22/03 Wed

I haven't read the wildfeed.

[> [> [> [> Not quite, there's more going on here I think -- shadowkat, 09:10:03 01/22/03 Wed

Not quite. Buffy kept saying in her speech how the Potentials are the chosen one's special, but inferred, not directly but indirectly that the others while helpful had to be taken care of.

She continuously refers to the demons and vampires as "animals" nothing more. Spike is only more because of his soul. But she consistently refers to his kind as animals. Not monsters. Which I found interesting.

Now when you watch this episode - you need to keep something in mind, we are NEVER really in Buffy's pov. We are in Dawn's or the proto-slayers or Amandas. So we are looking at Buffy through someone else's eyes.

This has been done several times this season - in Selfless - where Buffy comes across harder and more judgemental than usual (totally Xander, Anya, Willow and Spike's pov, never Buffy's), Same Time Same Place (Willow, Xander and Dawn's) and again Buffy comes across a little harder than usual,
Showtime (superslayer Buffy - we are in Spike, Willow, and Dawn's, proto-slayer's pov's and the FE). Compare these episodes to how we see Buffy in Bring On The Night, Sleeper, CwDP, Never LEave Me, Lessons, Help - not as hard, not as judgemental and not as arrogant.

I think the show is doing a clever job of showing us how we appear differently depending on the perspective. To one person we may appear to be an egotisitical bitch, to another a sweet kind caring nurturer, it depends on the situation. Dawn right now is struggling with who she is, she is almost 16 years of age, on the brink of woman hood, and at the same age her sister was when her sister was called. Her mother is dead. Her sister has taken on this role and her sister keeps talking about what happens when she'll die. Dawn is feeling powerless and confused...and alienated. The proto-slayers are also feeling a bit like this - I'm beginning to think the whole slayer thing is a big metaphor for a girl hitting adolescence, just as the whole vampire thing is a big metaphor for boys being arrested adolescents - since most of our vamps are boys, only a couple female vampires in the show.

Willow's spell is all about locating someone who is on the brink of a big change - it hits two people: dawn and amanda.
Both girls are undergoing changes. Amanda has begun to get interested in Boys and doesn't quite know what to do with it. Alone in the school - she gets trapped with a boy - used to being able to handle these situations, Amanda is a fighter - no one can hurt her - she's not sure how to handle this boy...so runs to the counselor she confided in about her interest in boys to begin with. Dawn is also running from a change she doesn't understand - is she special? what does that mean? How is she changing?
So she and Amanda meet and decide to go back to the school to confront the evidence of this change - for Dawn, her desire to be like Big Sis, to change into the hero, for Amanda to confront her fear of the big bad wolf. The reason it is important for Amanda to slay the big bad vamp and not Dawn is Amanda is the one who is afraid of it. Dawn really wasn't as much. Dawn's fears and demons aren't the same as Amanda's and the potential slayers and her sister Buffy's.
Dawn's demons are in an odd way more internal than external. She can't just slay them with a piece of wood. By giving Amanda the power - the wood - to slay the vampire, she faced her personal demon - never being the chosen one, like her big sis, not being part of big sis's world, not knowing who she will be and at the same time gave Amanda
the ability to slay her demon.

When Buffy shows up she is flustered by it all. Because here is a combination of both her jobs the slayer and the counselor. Dawn played Counselor in the scene. Amanda played Slayer. Buffy right now is a better slayer than counselor - to Buffy the power lies with the slayer, but as Dawn and Xander - prove it may actually lie with the counselor who instead of slaying demons - empowers others so that they can slay their own demons. Dawn ironically enough in both Potential and Help does a better job of empowering Cassie and Amanda than Buffy does - she gives them a sense of self-empowerment. By becoming Cassie's friend and by befriending Amanda and giving Amanda the courage to slay her own fears.

Sort of went off-topic, but that's what I got from the Buffy/Amanda/Dawn dynamic.

SK

[> [> [> [> [> Yeah, sorry Rahael -- ponygirl, 09:53:28 01/22/03 Wed

I was free-associating after "special and chosen." Buffy's speech to the SITs did make me flashback to a similar one Giles had given her. Not sure of the episode but he had said that Buffy had something girls her age didn't have, a destiny, a clear purpose. Buffy had replied that this was the point of being 16, not having everything decided and laid out for her. So it's interesting to hear Buffy now arguing this as a positive thing. Shadowkat has a lot of good points, I'd also like to add that Buffy's speech was pretty hard-hitting. She's not emphasizing teamwork here, at one point she says, "some of you are going to die, look around and decide that it's not going to be you." Not much with the yay us.

The animal thing was definitely notable, Spike certainly seemed to notice when Buffy said it. Throughout the episode Buffy's spouting her hard and fast rules, then getting caught by the exceptions. She's very much with the kill or be killed speech when she's straddling Spike, then she's genuinely upset that she may have hurt him. She makes the big speech about the demons being ready to rip their throats out, and then gives a big hug to Clem. Buffy seems to be trying to paint a very black and white picture for her pupils, but they and the audience keep seeing the greys.

[> [> [> [> [> It's all about power. -- Arethusa, 10:58:54 01/22/03 Wed

I apologize in advance if I'm being redundant-haven't read all the posts yet.

Early in the episode, Dawn sits on the stairs in between the SIT's training area (with folding bed in one corner) and the upstairs, which is where Dawn belongs. "This whole thing is about death," Buffy says, but is that true? She says her death will preceed the next Slayer's coming, but the slayer is Faith, not Buffy. She's out of the line of succession. Dawn feels left out and unimportant.

After Dawn's apparent calling, Willow is excited. She tells how wonderful it is to be connected to a great power. Dawn ducks out of the window, like Buffy has done so many times before. At first, I thought that Amanda might be the FE, but neither girl is what she thinks she is. Then Buffy lectures the SITs in the tomb, while Amanda and Dawn fight a vampire on their own. Buffy's speech to the SITs is an ironic counterpart to Dawn's battle against the vamp. While Dawn and Amanda try desperately to battle the vampire, Dawn tells Amanda that they'll get out alive. "I've got a plan," she says.

Meanwhile, Buffy is telling the SITs that "You can't think too much." They must fight on instinct-there's no time to plan. "The question is never, 'What do you think?' It's always, 'What do you know?' You've gotta know. If you don't, if you make one mistake, it takes just one vampire to kill you." At the same time, Dawn is telling Amanda, "In case you haven't noticed, I don't know what I"m doing here." "You're getting it done, " replies Amanda. Buffy continues, "So you've gotta know you can take him. Know your environment. Know what's around you. Know how to use it. In the hands of a slayer everything is a potential weapon if you know how to see it. When you're fighting you have to know yourself, your brain, your body. Know how to stay calm." Dawn gets up and throws everything around her at the vampire. She grabs a flagpole and breaks it after several tries. "Every move is important," Buffy continues. "Every blow has gotta be part of your plan. If you make that one mistake, then it's over." Dawn swings several times and misses, falling on her rear, the vamp looming overhead. "You're not the slayer. You're not a Potential. You're dead. So what do you know? Right now, the only thing you know for sure -you're not me," says Buffy, and leaves the SITs to do their duty.

Buffy's training session with the SITs is ironic counterpoint to Dawn's real staking adventure. She is is full slayer mode, cool and deadly. All her attention is on being the best slayer she can be, using her power to the utmost. But Buffy isn't the slayer, exactly. Faith is. And the more a ME character displays certainty and purpose, the sooner she loses it all. Buffy is all about who has the power rith now--will Buffy have to relinquish her role as slayer, and/or her slayer power? Willow is afraid to use her power. Xander and Dawn think they don't have any. Dawn gives away her false power to Amanda-it wasn't really hers. Buffy has said from the first episode this season that it's all about the power. But the power isn't hers, and one day perhaps the real slayer will take her place at the Hellmoth. Will she have to give up her slayer powers to neutralize the FE? Is that how balance will be restored? Is it even possible?

Metanarration:

"Black chick always gets it first." Rona

"Spike doesn't have free will. You did." Buffy to Andrew.

"I hate my free will." Andrew

"It's like a gay bar, only with demons in it." a SIT

"A slayer! Makes sense, I guess. Remember that thing about they share the same blood or whatever?" Willow

"Yeah, I never got that." Anya

"It's almost like this metaphor for womanhood, isn't it. The sort of flowering that happens when a girl realizes that she is part of a fertile heritage stretching back to Eve." Andrew, fanwanking his little heart out.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers for 'Potential' above and unspoiled spec, except Well Know Casting Spoiler (sort of) -- Arethusa, 11:02:08 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the reassurance everyone -- Rahael, 11:09:41 01/22/03 Wed

I got a little bit alarmed there.

And Arethusa, those quotes are hysterical!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Great post. Completely agree. -- shadowkat, 11:19:00 01/22/03 Wed

And the emphasis on Buffy's power riff and misread of what a slayer is and who she is...I think is important.

I think Buffy after all these years...is losing sight of who she is. All these characters are struggling to figure that out. And they all have different views of what power is and what they are. And we keep seeing their perceptions of this through their eyes and others eyes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You sure about that? -- Rufus, 22:16:10 01/22/03 Wed

There is something going on in the Buffyverse.....and it started with magic......the magic that brought Buffy back.....last season end we saw Buffy change her attitude about being back among the living, but we didn't see the end of the consequences of the magic Willow did.....that is still ongoing and there are still lots of consequences left to go around. The order/balance in the Buffyverse has shifted with the return of the Slayer.....but that return may have not been an accident....there may be a reason we see the disruption in the Slayer line. I think that Buffy is about the only one who is sure about the power that she has, and also understands that power isn't just a physical strength thing but more.

[> Re: Living in your shadow...impressions on Potential (Spoilers 7.12, Tonight's Btvs) -- AgnosticSorcerer, 02:07:00 01/22/03 Wed

One thing I loved about the episode was Xander's speech. It really defines what attracts me and other people to the show so much: the idea of being chosen, of having a destiny--a purpose.

Buffy summed it up perfectly in her speech in the basement to the potentials about how most people spend a big portion of their lives trying to figure out what they want to do all their lives whereas someone who is chosen--a slayer--knows their destiny. The Slayer just may be the only being who has that age-old question answered for them before they even know it: "Why am I here?" I think everybody on the Earth wants to know and unfortunately we don't have an ultimate destiny or a higher purpose that we can be sure of, but for one hour every week (or at least, it should be every week -.-) we get to be the Slayer. Every other day of the week, we're those extras you see walking up and down Main St., Sunnydale.

Another thing I love about the episode is tangental to above: Xander's speech. I know Xander essentially defined himself and his role in his speech, but did anybody else get the impression that he was also defining the role of a Watcher? I think Xander would be a great choice for a Watcher for reasons other than his speech. The first few references that come to mind would be in "Restless" where Xander comments, "I used to be into that" after Spike claims that Giles is training him to be a Watcher. Then, later on in Season 5 when the Council comes for their review of the Scoobies, Buffy states matter-of-factly, "The boy has clocked more field time than any of you put together."

It's 5am. I'm brainfried.

[> in defense of Andrew -- neaux, 04:34:53 01/22/03 Wed

I must say that Andrew's purpose as I see it, is to be the "old Xander." Maybe Andrew's references are annoying, but they are supposed to be (to Xander anyway). Why? For one, Xander is thinking the same thing but just not voicing his geekiness comparisons like he used to. Xander has matured.

Xander always said the most inane things at the wrong times and Giles' scolded him in seasons 1-4. Now Xander is scolding/threatening Andrew for the same thing.

I for one love Andrew's quips. He provides the ONLY Humor for the last couple of episodes.
Andrew provides the role that was once reserved for Xander. and why is that?

Since Xander has matured, he has taken on (as many have stated) the Father/Watcher role. So in a sense Xander is filling Giles' Shoes. After watching POTENTIAL you could easily compare Xander and Dawn's relationship to Giles' and Buffy's of past.

[> [> If humor is the main reason for keeping Andrew around, I wish they'd kept Jonathan instead. -- CW, 06:13:17 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> Point well taken -- neaux, 06:51:28 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> Are you kidding? Jonathan is (was) lame and unfunny! -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:21:51 01/22/03 Wed

And Clem eats kittens! There, I've spoken my blasphemy, and I stand by it.

[> So much to say and no time. (Spoilers and Speculation: Potential and Help?) -- Deb, 07:05:44 01/22/03 Wed

I take back what I said a couple of weeks ago about Buffy not making more use than "normal" TV of visual rhetoric. But, I'm on the run, so I'll just allude to one scene.

From S'Cat:
"HEre - you have to do this - take the power, prove yourself and Amanda stakes her first vampire, all by herself. Xander witnesses the whole thing. And then Amanda asks what the heck is going on...a perplexed Buffy and Spike struggling to handle it. (I did wonder what must be going through Spike's mind during all of this - I mean the guy used to kill slayers - here he is training potentials and watching them deal with idea that they could become a slayer and die, as well as dealing with Buffy saying this over and over. At times I thought I saw a glint of the old Spike inside - the one from Fool For Love and Dead Things...but not quite.)"

Another theme this year is about "seeing." First of all, when Spike was in the bar, I swear to God, he moved, spoke, etc just like FE. (This is the only scene where he does not touch anyone either. I'm not saying here that FE just jumped in for one scene either.)

We get to the scene S'Cat is talking about when we find out Amanda is the Potential and she has just killed her first vamp by herself. While Buffy is taking all of this information in, she is well back inside a shadow. She never steps forward. She's still in the dark and is not seeing something here. When Spike hears that Amanda is the Potential, he turns and moves his head from the shadow into the light to look at her. Spike sees and knows something that is apparently very important. Perhaps her actions show she is the next Slayer?

Souled Spike (??), with or without FE, is a bit Scary Spike and is definitely more of a Posh Spike than a Comfy Spike. I think they've done a terrible thing. When Spike chomped on Andrew, I think they placed William in there with Andrew. HELP! 'Never send a boy to do a man's job?'

FE Spike: "You're the one who couldn't live up to your end of the bargain." Couldn't "control" William.

There is just a whole lot of creepy undercurrent going on, and I don't have anymore time, but I leave with a question:

When Spike went to get his soul at end of season 6, did he ever say Buffy's name or did he always refer to her and "Her" and the "Slayer." I'm thinking no "Buffy." I have some thoughts but no time. Anyone else have thoughts?

[> [> He who fixes -- Rebound, 07:22:48 01/22/03 Wed

windows repairs souls, because he can see them.

[> Re: a thought on 'specialness' -- leslie, 15:13:04 01/22/03 Wed

The point of the episode seemed to be to highlight the "unchosen," yet given that we are dealing with an enemy whose appearance constantly changes, I cannot believe that it is purely a coincidence that the episode ends with Dawn speculating the Xander's "superpower" is the ability to see.

And although I, too, wish that Spike had something more to do, it is kind of interesting seeing him be adult, and it is also interesting to contrast his reaction to the last, what, five hundred years it seems like tied up and unable to move, when being paralysed/powerless/"impotent" has previously been the thing that comes closest to driving him insane or suicidal.

[> [> Good points -- shadowkat, 15:46:43 01/22/03 Wed

Ah my fellow Spike fan -
I agree actually, it was nice to see him walk and talk and actually do stuff and do it in adult manner. Marsters is doing an interesting job of playing this more adult Spike.
The fact he hasn't gone nuts - is indeed interesting.
Must be nice to have a little action after being tied up for so long - leave it to Buffy to come up with the best job for him.

Now if she can only find something to do with Andrew.

Love this point, never noticed it:
The point of the episode seemed to be to highlight the "unchosen," yet given that we are dealing with an enemy whose appearance constantly changes, I cannot believe that it is purely a coincidence that the episode ends with Dawn speculating the Xander's "superpower" is the ability to see.

Yes - Xander does appear to see things clearer than the others this year. In Lessons, he found the tailsman. In STSP he realized it wasn't Willow doing it and noticed she didn't arrive at the airport. In Him - he suggests it's the jacket causing everyone to go wonky over RJ. In Never LEave Me - he figures out what's up with Spike. In Selfless - he fights for Anya. Perhaps this strength will serve him in what's to come? Hope so. Or knowing Whedon and Company they'll flip the ability on him.

[> [> [> [> Re: Good points, lesli and sk, to add... -- shadowkat, 20:32:15 01/22/03 Wed

Sleeper - Xander suggests that it's possible Spike is doing this but not to jump to conclusions, let's think this through in CSI logical manner. Then he says Spike seemed cool as cool whip, clearly not fazed or knowing a thing. Since when has Spike been able to lie or act cool about anything in his life. (Sleeper to be fair is not a Xander episode...so I'm not sure it counts.)

At the end he makes a remark, me and Willow wanted to hit him for but hey, he's Xander. "Do we want an out of control serial killer in our midst" - which to give Xander his due, makes sense in the episode that follows.

OTOH - Xander's human - he is blind when the issue affects him too closely - ie. The B/S shenigangs last year and Buffy's depression and Willow's magic use. This year he appears to see clearly - but the stuff he sees don't really affect him as personally as we might think, aka they aren't things he wants to be blind to?

SK

I think he also makes the point to Dawn that he sees clearly because no ones paying attention to him. It's possible that this is going to turn out to be forshadowing for later when no one paying attention to Xander (or Dawn?)is important...

PS leslie and SK just read "firsts" from 1/10 interesting thread...not sure on the coding of the first though seems like one of your archy gender blenders...most of the demons seem to be coded male don't they?

PPS Thanks very for the Sleeper info Ben was queing for access... online replacing the phone these days LOL. :-)

[> Exceptional and Extraordinary -- luna, 18:52:20 01/22/03 Wed

I didn't love Potential, except, like most, Xander's final speech. It struck me that it tied in ironically with the Marti Noxon interview--that the big theme in Buffy is what it's like to be the exceptional person. That made a lot of sense to me, and then this episode turned it around and focussed on what it's like to be a great, smart, beautiful, but normal person living with an exceptional person. I think that's what made the ending moving for me--that contrast.

Otherwise it really didn't have much. You KNEW Buffy would save Dawn, the bads were all small-b, no crazy or shirtless Spike. Sigh.

My Thoughts on POTENTIAL (spoilers) -- Purple Tulip, 21:20:12 01/21/03 Tue

I, for one, don't know what to make of this episode. It was pretty much how I thought it would be, but with a few surprises. But I personally was hoping for more Buffy-Spike interaction, b/c I think that the chemistry that they have this season is very interesting and fun to watch, and I can't wait to see where it goes. I was really surprised when Amanda turned out to be the new potential---was anyone else? And it was nice to see Clem back, but that awful special effects face trick was just stupid and completely out of place. Anyone else know that Clem's face could open up and put on a show? And where was Giles anyway? And I have to say that I think that enjoyed Dawn more in this episode than in any episode thus far. And the slayerettes are getting a little annoying and Andrew is getting more whiny, but I still find him funny at the same time (my sister thinks that Andrew just wants a friend and that he and Dawn should hook up, but whatever). I just thought that maybe more would happen in this one, I don't know what, but something more solid. And when does the next episode air anyway? I'm so sick of this once every two weeks crap. I need a new ep. each week to keep me going! Who's with me??!!

[> Did anybody else notice in Potential...(a little spoilery for the ep.) -- SVN, 21:33:00 01/21/03 Tue

Weren't there 5 SITs at the end of last week's ep:

Kennedy
Vi
Rhona
Molly
Chloe

What the heck happened to Chloe? No mention of her, no reference to her dying. Hm.

On the topic of Dawn...I just don't think I'll ever be satisifed with her character. See, in Season 5, I really liked her, and I thought she was a great new addition to the show. Then in Season 6 I HATED her (not at the very beginning of the season mind you; after Wrecked when she went into whine mode). Now this season, it seems like the shows creators are trying too hard to make up for last season; we keep getting it shoved in our faces what a great person Dawn is, and what a powerful young woman she's becoming, yadda, yadda, yadda. For some reason, I find that almost as annoying as the whining from last season. Alas, never satisifed is the human nature.

[> Re: My Thoughts on POTENTIAL (spoilers) -- tam, 23:56:25 01/21/03 Tue

i am getting a little annoyed with spike. his "little bit", his "platelet" -- ok, so she is not a potential, but does that mean he just should continually ignore her? my heart breaks for her; she lost her mom, she lost tara. and now the only one who seems to be aware of her is xander. i love the way he has grown.

[> [> Re: My Thoughts on POTENTIAL (spoilers) -- amber, 00:10:19 01/22/03 Wed

I too miss the Dawn and Spike interactions but in defense of Spike's relationship with Dawn I'd like to point out that in most cases it was a case of Dawn coming to Spike, stopping by his crypt, etc. Spike was rarely the one to make 'first contact' with her. I think that Dawn's crush on Spike has worn off, hence she isn't relying on that relationship the way she used to. Also with Spike's recent addition of a soul he's got a lot of other things on his mind right now, besides his 'little bit.'

[> [> [> Dawn and Spike -- Helen, 04:15:27 01/22/03 Wed

Perhaps Dawn isn't as able as Buffy to move on from the AR in Seeing Red? She was mighty scary when she told Spike she'd set fire to him if he hurt Buffy again.

Evaluating Dawn and Spike in the light of his soul gives us a retcon problem: it would be of interest to compare her current reactions with those she had to Angel's loss of soul and re-soulement, but we can't. Although the conceit of the show is that the monks gave her memories of everuything that happened previously (hence her discussion with Riley about Angel in a Season 5 ep), they haven't given US those false memories. We can only conjecture what she has been given the illusion of thinking.

[> Re: My Thoughts on POTENTIAL (spoilers) -- AgnosticSorcerer, 01:35:38 01/22/03 Wed

Who are these Dawn/Andrew-shippers and what are they smoking?

Andrew is on a strict meat-only diet.

In Defense of a Whiner -- AndrewLover, 21:34:53 01/21/03 Tue

All y'all naysayers can go to hell. Andrew is adorable. I don't care if I am the only one who thinks in this manner. His voice may be grating and he may have no substance, but he means well now (at least, I believe so. May lightning strike me if he reverts back to [trying to be] evil.). So just let him be--he's great.

[> Re: In Defense of a Whiner -- parakeet, 21:52:03 01/21/03 Tue

I must say that I like the fact that they've got a murderer who doesn't have the "no soul" excuse but are toying, it would seem, with the idea of redemption. Maybe they'll go there, maybe not. I agree with you, though, that he's an interesting element in the series right now, despite, I must say, his rather annoying aspects. Much has been said about his being a metanarrative aspect of both Xander's (the geek) and Spike's (the killer) personalities. Dawn, too. I think the character is providing an interesting counterpoint that would probably be sorely missed if not there. I can just see the alternate reality board posts now -- about Spike's almost-too-easy placement back into the fold, Xander's almost-too-wise perspective, and Dawn's almost-too-pathetic "why not me?". Don't get me wrong -- I think that these aspects have been handled well and are precedented; it's just that I think Andrew is adding something to our ability to appreciate it. They're growing nicely from Season Six's theme of the role of humanity in evil. Andrew is pathetic, human, and "bad". I like having him in the mix, even though I dislike him immensely.

[> Re: In Defense of a Whiner -- Quentin Collins, 21:59:19 01/21/03 Tue

When I first heard that Andrew was returning, I figured he would get killed off quickly. Now I hope he is here to stay. Nearly every line he utters cracks me up. He and Anya do a great job of lightening the mood on the show. I love the fact that despite the fact that there is no other "geek" in the mix, he still throws out his comic book and sci fi references all the time. I also like that it seems he is having the time of his life hanging out with the Scoobies.

[> I'm glad you posted to defend Andrew. I agree with you...I love the guy! -- Rob, 22:37:46 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> Re: I'm glad you posted to defend Andrew. I agree with you...I love the guy! -- AgnosticSorcerer, 01:30:48 01/22/03 Wed

I like Andrew just as much as any of you, but I do not think he will be on the show much longer.

It was in another thread that a poster commented on ME's tendency to make the victims sympathetic before their death and I feel that's what is exactly happening to Andrew. Slowly, he seems to be less annoying and more sympathetic this season than last year and earlier in the year. Hell, last year I was rooting for Willow to kill this boi, but today I would rather see him redeemed--unfortunately, I think he's just fodder.

Besides, he has yet to prove he is worth any real value to the Scoobies and I think if we have any more homosexual characters on the show we might begin to bridge on teeny-bopper melodrama.

[> Re: In Defense of a Whiner -- Yoda, 05:52:58 01/22/03 Wed

He adds some much needed levity to the show. All the other characters are way too serious all the time now. They used to laugh in the face of danger now they just scowl.

[> Re: In Defense of a Whiner (spoils some minor dialogue) -- Mystery, 06:22:55 01/22/03 Wed

I love the character of Andrew in the mix. Probably because I'm the geek who thinks all the things he sez outloud. My brother and I are freakish Dragonball Z fans and we almost died laughing when Andrew compared himself to Vegeta, especially the way he pronounced "Goku."

I know that he's the type of person who in real life most people would avoid like the plague, but I love what he brings to the house. He makes me laugh with his mannerisms and the things he talks about. I especially loved the woman power speech.

But yeah, since I am a fellow geek along his lines (I'm still waiting for him to make an Eternal Champion reference...lol) of knowledge, I can relate to Andrew. And I totally feel Xander's pain when dealing with him ("STOP TALKING LIKE THIS IN FRONT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!"). I hope that Andrew will grow, very much the same way that Xander has since season one. Hey, is it just me, or is Xander's tendancy to be harsh with Andrew kind of reminscent of Giles' treatment of Xander in the earlier seasons?

[> [> Definitely Yes (spoilers) -- Scroll, 07:49:34 01/22/03 Wed

I think we're seeing our Xand-man slowly develop into being a Watcher. Which I would love to see, since I think the Watchers are a necessary aspect of Slayer-dom. Those girls need someone watching out for them, someone who'll sit in the background researching, who'll support them and give hugs and fix windows when they need fixing. The Council in England may be gone, but the Watcher spirit lives on. Okay, now I'm getting hokey...

[> [> [> Had the same thought last night. (spoilers season 7) -- yez, 09:00:12 01/22/03 Wed

Though the thought was immediately followed by "... but I'm not sure he has what it takes, at least not yet." Or maybe he's the kindler, gentler Watcher, the Watcher that Giles eventually turned into, instead of the "slavemaster" (I use the term loosely) he started out being.

I've mentioned this before, but I think we're seeing a Council genesis story here, in a way, with the whole Scoobie gang starting to adopt roles and responsibilities that you could very easily see becoming institutionalized in the future and eventually leading to a Council of Watchers -- going from people who helped the Slayer because they cared about her to people who think that they have the responsibility to "help" the Slayer, including by helping to train and direct her. And so then the Slayer becomes the instrument of a Council again; the pendulum swings back.

yez

[> [> [> [> Re: Had the same thought last night. (spoilers season 7) -- Mystery, 09:30:59 01/22/03 Wed

And Dawn did say that maybe seeing and knowing was Xander's power.

What do Watcher's do? They see and they know (well except for synchronized swimming...that's a complete mystery). I do believe that all along they've been grooming Xander to be the true essense of the Watcher. The First Watcher might have been a relative or friend of the Slayer, who saw and knew everything the Slayer did. They recorded the Slayer's life and actions and death. Giles may be a Watcher, but he also was given the task of taking over for Merrick, and being Buffy's mentor/sensei.

Xander is a Watcher, too. Only he's not experienced enough to be a mentor...yet. BUT he is more experienced with actual demon hunting than most of the (late) Watcher's Council. He's clocked field time. One day, he'll be ready to mentor a Potential Slayer, but for now, he has to let Spike, Giles and Buffy handle it. Right now, he just watches and learns, so one day he can know.

See Xander's a Potential, too.

[> Andrew is hysterical, IMHO. -- yez, 09:44:58 01/22/03 Wed

I agree with others -- he does bring some much needed levity to the show. I'm glad he's back. I don't usually get all the references he makes, but they crack me up nonetheless because of the actor's great delivery of the lines and the sheer thought of his geekitude (I use the term fondly).

Especially in Potential, I was struck by how he's like a fan -- a representative of us. He watches the Scoobie gang like a film, commenting on the storylines just like we are and what they mean, what they might represent, etc. The whole "young woman developing, female empowerment" thing really cracked me up.

yez

[> [> Me, too. -- Rob, 11:39:41 01/22/03 Wed

As I was watching him do that female empowerment speech, I was thinking, "How incredibly cool. He's basically deconstructing the concept/mythology/symbolism of the show right before the characters' very eyes. That's what I think is so brilliant about him. While I love Jonathan, I for one am glad that if only one of them could, Andrew is the one who lived. Because Jonathan is not as awkward or naive as Andrew. Jonathan's "rehabilitation" wouldn't be that big of a stretch. At heart, he was basically good the entire time. Andrew however has lost everything in the world, and 99% of it was his fault. And he, again, is the one out of the Geek Trio who didn't only know all of those obsure pop cultural references but believed he was actually living in one of those movies or comic books he loves so much. To him, the idea of a superhero is totally normal and real. And I love that.

Rob

[> [> [> But do you think he gets it? -- yez, 12:00:07 01/22/03 Wed

I mean, aside from that quick line he says about hating what he did to Jonathan (which seems sincere, but we hear it almost in passing), I'm not sure he's into rehabilitation or redemption for any other reasons than that they would make a cool storyline, like in his favorite stories, and because he's a total follower, someone with such a weak character and lack of ethics that he goes along with whatever stronger personality happens to be exerting its gravity on him at the moment.

He's such a comical figure -- and I love that -- but I think it's kind of dangerous that he's SO comical that it's easy to forget about the horrible things he's done and is probably still capable of if someone encourages him in that direction. It's interesting to me that with Warren we had a character that was more or less comical until he crosses that line with murder and we are forced to see how deeply perverse and corrupt his character truly was, beneath the humor. But with Andrew, we also see him murder -- and a premeditated murder this time -- and yet for me, he remains this comical figure. I don't know why. I mean, even the other characters in the show despise him, and instead of that being a reminder of how I should feel toward him, I can't help but let him off the hook a little. It's like the bad things he's done are more the result of incompetence and idiocy than actual malice...

yez

[> [> [> [> What about telling Warren/The First: -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:59:31 01/22/03 Wed

"I'm not going to kill anymore people" in Never Leave Me?

That seems pretty significant to me, especially for someone as weak willed as Andrew usually is.

[> [> [> [> [> Good point. Though... -- yez, 15:44:46 01/22/03 Wed

... while it's a step in the right direction, it's kind of tainted by his continued willingness in that ep. to help Warren fulfill the plan to unleash the Ueber-vamp.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> And you think Andrew knew what the blood sacrafice would do? -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:31:53 01/22/03 Wed

Warren said that they would become gods after the seal was opened. I doubt he knew anything about the UberVamp, and it's unclear if he thought anything evil would come of it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's hard to believe that he couldn't have known -- yez, 20:55:26 01/22/03 Wed

something bad could possibly come of it after the murder and all, not to mention that the idea was coming from Warren, a dead guy who, before he died, had tried to turn his ex into a lobotomized sex slave, killed her, then shot another two people, resulting in Andrew having to flee the country, among other things.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That all requires putting two and two together, and that may be beyond Andrew's mental capacity -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:29:10 01/23/03 Thu

[> The Unknown and Unlamented Citizen -- Random, 16:19:52 01/22/03 Wed

The funniest thing happened last night: I actually started feeling sorry for Andrew. His pathetic attempts to belong, his neediness, his utter lack social skills, his impotence (metaphorically speaking)...he's finally gotten to me. Had I been in the room when he asked Dawn to play "dragonball," I probably would have gone with him, even though I haven't the faintest idea what a dragonball is. Is it like a Tamaguchi or something? Anyway, I finally get it: Andrew is the only recurring character who can be defined, in final analysis, as a perpetual victim. Jonathan wasn't. He made breakthroughs, took control, knew his own mind. I realize, thinking back, that the moment Andrew stabbed Jonathan, I considered Andrew to be the only real victim in the room. It's a strange feeling to watch a murder and consider the murder to be more of a victim than the victim himself.

But Andrew, morally reprehensible though he may have been most of his life, never seemed to evil...because, as the Scooby Gang has demonstrated, we take evil seriously, and if we can't take something seriously, we're not likely to define it as evil. Andrew's attempts to claim that he's no longer evil are a pathetic cry for validation...not of his reform and worthiness, but of the possibility that he might have, if only for a little while, might have been considered worth taking seriously because he was "evil." I would guess that he's never even had a real friend. Warren used him. Jonathan was stuck with him by necessity and circumstance. Neither seemed to like him in any particular way. He was a body with certain commonalites with certain people around him. A geek? Sure, let's do some geeky things with him. Trust him with a heart-to-heart talk? Yeah, right. Give a damn about what happens to him? Uh, well, sure, I guess, I mean, I hope he doesn't, like, you know, die ugly or something.

It was Jonathan (late, lamented, *sob*) who gave us the final word on Andrew: "You are sadness personified." And even Jonathan may not have grasped the true depth of his insight. Andrew is not pitiable because he's a geek -- a great many people are, and a large percentage of them are people worth talking to. Nor is it a simple matter to dismiss him as inept and ultimately stupid. He's both, of course, but they are symptomatic of a more essential problem. Andrew is the very definition of a lost soul, one of those who exist on the periphery of socialization but never able to cross. He and Xander are exact opposites. The reason I love Xander can be, in many ways, summed up in his talk with Dawn in "Potential." (Anti-sappy person that I am, I've nevertheless been waiting a long time for Xander to get his due, even if it's only for an audience of Dawn and, well, a few million viewers. Loved the speech.) Xander may have been an unpopular outcast, but he had an identity, a sense of self. He may have had low self-esteem, but at least it was his self-esteem, dammit, and nobody -- not Cordelia, not the bullies, not Angelus -- was going to break him. Andrew, with the same credentials, socially, has no grasp of who he is and, one is tempted to believe, never will because he's too far gone. Xander is funny, and we laugh with him. Andrew is funny (yes, I like the comic relief, even if I'm clueless about 75% of his references) but we laugh at him. Not a startlingly original insight there, but...Andrew doesn't rate amusement from those around him. Only out here, in the world outside the box, can anyone even laugh at him. He is the classic, and tragic, character: the pratfalling victim, the loser who exists only to lose. And that's what's tragic here. Even within the Buffyverse, that seems to be Andrew's only purpose -- to lose and exist as an example of everything the Scooby Gang doesn't want to become. So, yes, I felt sorry for Andrew. Sure he's a murderer. Sure he set flying demon monkeys on the school play. And sure he's could be genuinely sorry for having killed Jonathan...but nobody cares. He, both in practice and in theory, doesn't matter. Whatever happens to him in the remainder of the season, I hope he finds some measure of redemption. But I'm not sure I'll be entirely convinced, no matter how good a job ME does with it. I suspect he'll die in a manner akin to Jonathan -- quick and tragic. But nobody'll mourn him, not like we did with Jonathan (*sob*). Sure, we'll miss the comic relief. But it'll be less a requiem for Chuckles than a fervent desire to have somebody else -- Clem, perhaps -- come to fill the humor void.

[> [> Nice. -- yez, 06:43:21 01/23/03 Thu

Re previous posting -B/A shippers are there any of you left out there? and other musings -- JulieB, 22:04:29 01/21/03 Tue

By the way, I'm picking up a very real theme, that some of you guys are not treating this lofty topic thread with the due reverence and respect it deserves.

Anyway back to me.

Cool suggestions everyone for cross over finales, but just to drag it back to what I see happening. I recon both series will come their end, but Buffy first. BTVS will end with Buffy remaining partnerless, but in a good space. (wow now that would make a nice change) Don't ask me for any minute details here, I have'nt thought that far ahead, just big picture stuff.

Next ATS comes to an end in a year or two. As we move towards the Angel finale, Buffy gets reintroduced into the story line, maybe across two or three guest appearances. B/A realise that they can make it work despite all the challenges and decide to live happily ever after - whatever the hell that means, fighting demons side by side.

Cordelia becomes but a faint memory, a mere blip in Angel's radar, much like Spike in Buffy's and they rediscover a new more mature love. One built on who they have become, rather than who they used to be.

Oh yeh the sex thing, I haven't figured that one out, but there must be a solution. I would be a terrible shame to live a life time of, looking, but no serious touching allowed. This could lead to some suicidal tendencies on one or both parties behalf (maybe I'm projecting here).

Some idle speculation ,.... is Buffy and Angel achieving true happiness, bliss a euphenism for "orgasym", presumably exquisite, sublime pleasure at the very least?? Can they not get there without actual intercouse?

Is it not afterall possible to experience such ecstasy without what we typically consider traditional penetration? Maybe cuddling between the right parties could produce the same effect?? We are all different and achieve arousal in very unique ways. Maybe such subjective definitions of true bliss would make this scenario too challenging, you would never know where the boundaries lie and whether you were crossing them. Very Russian roughlet. (sorry about the spelling).

One possibility though if Angel and Buffy could fall out of love, they could get horizontal whenever they wanted to.

Does this mean that Angel/Cordelia being in love, rule out true happiness with Angel and Buffy (I'm talking sex here) or does Angel falling in love for a second time, mean that he loves both women equally, but differently?, thus being able to achieve multiple true happinesses.

Maybe someone should suggest a test to see were his feelings truely lie, "it should be called the sex test", all up and comers welcome (reading that back sounds mildly salacious). Angel could still enjoy sewing his proverbial and not so proverbial oats (Darla the exception here), as long as he did'nt enjoy him self too much. I suspect this might be a tad risky as the price of guessing wrong for the poor unsuspecting world would be Angelus. Still this scenario has possibilities...

[> Sorry, but... -- parakeet, 00:29:53 01/22/03 Wed

Angel and Buffy are on two separate paths, and this is good. We aren't all tethered to our first love, no matter how intense it was.
I'm no fan of Angel/Cordelia, but I am of Buffy/Spike. Now, maybe Buffy will get back together with Spike and maybe not. I honestly don't care; I like how they've progressed this season.
Why would Buffy and Angel get back together? They've successfully moved on. This doesn't take away from what they had, and it doesn't mean that they are fickle. Hopefully, we've all loved intensely at some point, but it doesn't mean eternal (for most of us and why not Buffy?)
I don't want to get back together with Brian from High School, even though I once pledged (honestly) undying love. I'm older now, and I've got my sights set elsewhere. (Still have the hots for Brian, though, and so what?) Buffy and Angel no longer belong together.

[> Re: Re previous posting -B/A shippers are there any of you left out there? and other musings -- shambleau, 04:32:56 01/22/03 Wed

If AtS ends with Angel shanshued, the sex thing is no longer a problem and if Buffy has abdicated in favor of another slayer, you've got the whole thing solved. Ain't gonna happen though.

I think.

[> Re: Re previous posting -B/A shippers are there any of you left out there? and other musings -- Alison, 05:26:18 01/22/03 Wed

I don't think "true happiness" is about sex, or an orgasm....its more about true itimacy with your soulmate.

Forced to lurk no longer! And thoughts on Strength vs. Power (Spoilers 7.1-12 and some vague spec) -- Haecceity, 00:29:42 01/22/03 Wed

Greetings, all, and oh how I've missed you. The gods of unbelievable coincidence and old trickster fate have been moving through my life these last weeks with the approximate subtlety of a Roto-Rooter-just one long smear of chaos. We're talking Buffy-caliber angst here-what with family members in emergency surgery, the dissolution of a rather intense relationship, crazy holiday upset, a cross-country move, and if the fellow in front of me who reclined his seat *completely* through a SIX HOUR FLIGHT wasn't entirely vampy, he certainly smelled dead-and me without my stake:)

But this writing finds me finally in grad school with a whole week before classes start, a genuine, glory!hallelujah Ethernet connection and a brand new Buffy to pore over. Almost makes up for my disturbingly Kathy-ish roommate (apparently "Murder She Wrote" is the funnest!). Almost. (She sings in the shower. Loudly. Like across the suite and down the hall loudly. High-pitched. Off-key. "Little Bunny Foo-Foo". "Feelings". "The 'Best' of the Pointer Sisters". Did I mention "Please Gods Crank the Stereo to Drown Her Out" Loudly?) She's not human. No one can watch the Game Show Network as much as she does and be human.

At any rate, I want to apologize aforehand if I'm retreading anyone's points-I haven't quite got through all the backlog of archives yet, but I know you'll set me straight if I've missed anything. Plus, am now a West-Coaster, so board-delayed after eps-not used to everyone else getting a jump on the latest before me-tempts me to read everyone's posts before writing anything-which might be a good thing-could save myself from eating crow on a regular basis;)

Okay, so, on to "Potential"-

************Quotage from Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse (for such a tiny book it's certainly produced a large amount of post-worthy material, no?) and script sections from Psyche, of course. Plus a bit of half-remembered dialogue from Tarkovsky's "The Stalker" ****************

Power? Or Strength?

"It's not about Good. It's not about Evil. It's about Power."-The First as Evil!Buffy
"I got so much strength, I'm givin' it away"-BestFriend!Buffy

"Power is a feature only of finite games. Where the finite player plays *to be powerful* the infinite player plays *with strength*. A powerful person is one who brings the past to an outcome, settling all its unresolved issues. A strong person is one who carries the past into the future, showing that none of its issues is capable of [final] resolution [=end, death of continued play, i.e. existence]. Power is concerned with what has already happened; strength with what has yet to happen. Power is finite in amount. Strength cannot be measured, because it is an opening, not a closing act. Power refers to the freedom persons have *within* limits, strength to the freedom persons have *with* limits. Power will always be restricted to a relatively small number of selected persons. *Anyone* can be strong. Strength is paradoxical. I am not strong because I can force others to do what I wish *as a result of my play with them*, but because I can allow them to do what they wish *in the course of my play with them*." -Finite & Infinite Games

In this season of "Power! Power! Rah, Rah, Rah!" we've finally got an episode which begins to look seriously at the importance of Strength in the Buffyverse.

---About time, too. Here's where I cop that PreachyPower!Buffy is Boring!Buffy IMO, and that I was getting heartily apathetic re: the whole "Adventures in BabySiTting" stretch. (though this week *does* have me wondering what happened to the Disney SiT-any ideas? Did the Mouse House recall her? Was she an O.S. casualty? Is this a clue that they'll be bumping off the other single-name actress as well? And what's with that, anyway? Is it the new trend in teen actors? For so long they had to have three names, now they've got to be Diva-ready?) Okay, back to the point---

I think the whole Power/Strength dichotomy touches painfully close to the roots of this entire storyspace-a "normal" girl, burdened with the weight of Power, finding the Strength to forge her own path.

We've gotten hints before this. It's not the first time we've seen the importance of Strength rather than Power this season. I was struck especially by the last scene of STSP, of Buffy offering her strength to Willow. I think the entire episode was created for that one scene. And the composition of it-striking, iconic, memorable-I'm convinced this situation will come up again at a crucial juncture.

BUFFY
I thought you were too tired.
WILLOW
It hurts too much not to try.
BUFFY
I'm so sorry.
WILLOW
It just takes so much strength. I
don't have that much.
Buffy shifts on the bed, so that she's sitting cross-legged too, facing Willow. She touches Willow's hand with hers. Observant viewers may notice that this is the first time anyone has touched Willow this episode.
BUFFY
Me, I got so much strength I'm givin'
it away.
WILLOW
Are you sure...
BUFFY
Will it help?
WILLOW
Much.
Buffy reaches out her other hand, takes Willow's.
BUFFY
Good.
Willow smiles. They sit there, working together, connecting.
--courtesy Psyche's scripts (seriously, is Psyche getting the daily genuflection and offerings so richly deserved for that treasure trove of a site?)

And now we have Dawnie and Xander commiserating on the unheralded importance of the Strong in Their Own Just Folks Manner membership of the Scoobie Gang (yes I'm glossing over her Key-ness-that little bit's been deliberately ignored by the writers lately, and as goes ME, so too this essay;)

A little sonata on potential, possibility, the grace of fulfilling and passing on to others. It certainly stands in eloquent contrast to Miss Power-tripping, I Must Speechify At Every Opportunity, Her Highness the Slayer, Buffy.

Power!Buffy, Evil!Buffy?

"The contradiction inherent in all evil is that it originates in the desire to eliminate all evil. Infinite players understand the inescapable likelihood of evil. They therefore do not attempt to eliminate evil in others, for to do so is the very impulse of evil itself...[infinite players ] attempt paradoxically to recognize in themselves the evil that takes the form of attempting to eliminate evil elsewhere."-Finite And Infinite Games

I'm getting really worried about our girl this year. Can't get the uneasy dread out of my head- a scene from Tarkovsky's "The Stalker" is looping through my brain-

(Film-major, forgive me. A quick synopsis for those interested-a mysterious, tormented guide leads those who've lost all hope in life through a labyrinth of oddness to a room that is reputed to bring one their heart's desire. Very long, very Pre-Glasnost Russian, very Existential, worth the while if you're very patient and don't care about nice tidy endings much. Definitely a think-piece.)

-"Hardness and Callousness are Death's companions. Weakness and Suppleness are Life's [friends? Don't remember the word exactly]. That which has become hard shall not triumph."

Seems to speak so strongly to my unease with UberSlayer!Buffy this year. First she's Shish-ka-bobbing Anya and declaring out and out war, now she's running SiT Boot Camp and ignoring (once again) the strength of her Scoobie Support Squad. There's a storm brewing, and it's my best guess that we'll be seeing the harsh consequences of Power-wielding before long.

BUFFY (cont'd)
We're not ready? THEY'RE not ready.
They think we're gonna wait, like we
always do, for the end to come but
I'm done waiting. They want an
apocalypse? We'll give 'em one.
Anyone else who wants to run do it
now, because we just became an army.
We just declared war.

BUFFY (cont'd)
From now on we won't just face our
worst fears, we will seek them out.
We will find them and cut out their
hearts, one by one, until The First
shows itself for what it is. And I
will kill it myself. There's only
one thing on this earth more powerful
than evil. And that's us.
She looks around at them all.

BUFFY (cont'd)
Any questions?
--From "Bring On the Night" Thanks, Psyche!

"[In looking at opposition from the view of infinite play] warfare and heroism are seen with their self-contradictions in full display. No nation can go to war until it has found another that can agree to the terms of conflict. Each side must therefore be in complicity with the other: Before I can have an enemy, I must persuade another to recognize me as an enemy. I cannot be a hero unless I can find first find someone who will threaten my life, or, better, take my life. Once under way, warfare and acts of heroism have all the appearance of necessity, but that appearance is but a veil over the often complicated maneuvers by which the antagonists have arranged their conflict with each other." -Finite and Infinite Games (confession time again-was working on honkin' huge post regarding Cultures of Night, The First Evil and the Slayer Power Sources, but just didn't have the time and a brief glance at recent archives looks as if more discussion would be redundant. Hence all the quotage-swiped the 7.12 pertinent stuff from the stillborn post. Sorry if any overlaps occur.)

I see Season 7 as working toward the apotheosis of all characters-the essences of them stripped of ego, complexes, etc. it is time for them to see themselves truly. For Buffy especially this means realizing the essential encompassing infinite game beyond her bounded role as Slayer-to seeing how everything is "all connected". To transition from powerful finite warrior to strong infinite...Buddha, I suppose-an "awakened one", a figure of strength and compassion. And I confess I expect the others to harness their powers, find and own their own strengths as well. Tonight's ep certainly showed promise along those lines. (fighting desperately the urge to type "potential";) Plus, you gotta love Buffy/Clem huggage!

---Haecceity, back from hiatus

[> Welcome Back!!! (Spoilers for the newly aired Buffy ep) -- Rahael, 03:25:18 01/22/03 Wed

I was only thinking two days ago "Where's Hacceity?"

I'm sorry to hear you have been going through Buffy level angst. That's some serious stuff! And your description of your room mate was too funny.

I haven't seen Potential, of course. But very interesting thoughts, and some very nice quotes, especially this

"The contradiction inherent in all evil is that it originates in the desire to eliminate all evil. Infinite players understand the inescapable likelihood of evil. They therefore do not attempt to eliminate evil in others, for to do so is the very impulse of evil itself...[infinite players ] attempt paradoxically to recognize in themselves the evil that takes the form of attempting to eliminate evil elsewhere."-Finite And Infinite Games

The ideas that have been predominant - connectedness, power, and balance they seem very germane to what you suggest here, that Buffy comes to a different idea of how to use her power. Indeed, you might say that this tension has been there from the very first - do you run away from the power and the potential implications of it (Season 1, WttH, PG etc), or be able to use it to do necessary, but painful things (Season 2) or the dangers of irresponsible useage (Season 3, especially with Faith as shadow self) or harness it to work with another kind of power (Season 4, Initiative), etc etc.

It would be interesting to see a satisfying resolution to this in what is very likely going to be the last ever season. Especially when you consider the conclusion of The Gift, which once might have been the finale, and whose theme and structure was decided at a time when Joss thought it might have been the last one.

Buffy in that ep is shown as being powerful by denying her power - she attacks Glory repeatedly with physical strength, but it's the strength of her love for Dawn, and the world that leads to moral clarity and compassion so great, she gives up everything. She denies her self, and reaches the apotheosis of her humanity. Dying, she gives life to Dawn. The dark night of the soul she entered when Joyce died turned to morning.

But this time around I don't want her to sacrifice her life again. I want her to live for the world, not die for it. I have no idea at all if Joss sees it this way!

[> [> Couldn't Agree More -- Haecceity, 19:57:47 01/22/03 Wed

"this time around I don't want her to sacrifice her life again. I want her to live for the world, not die for it. "

One of the reasons I love BtVS so much is that it continues to grow beyond the conventions of heroic narrative, and just for once I'd like to see the "sacrifice" demanded of our conquering hero be the release of her powers, the reward a normal life, not just "Blaze of Glory" (no pun intended) death. I think ME has a wonderful opportunity to move beyond the, let's face it, expected sacrifice that was Buffy's Leap, and on to a finale that depends upon the *shared* strength of love--wherein the end has not one hero, but many.

Love this breakdown of Power Balance by season--

"The ideas that have been predominant - connectedness, power, and balance they seem very germane to what you suggest here, that Buffy comes to a different idea of how to use her power. Indeed, you might say that this tension has been there from the very first - do you run away from the power and the potential implications of it (Season 1, WttH, PG etc), or be able to use it to do necessary, but painful things (Season 2) or the dangers of irresponsible useage (Season 3, especially with Faith as shadow self) or harness it to work with another kind of power (Season 4, Initiative), etc etc."

Will have to think over it in more depth.

And thanks, it's nice to be missed.

---Haecceity

[> Very nice--lots to think about for work today, thanks. -- yez, 05:50:23 01/22/03 Wed

[> OT but I like your quote -- Scroll, 06:59:05 01/22/03 Wed

"[In looking at opposition from the view of infinite play] warfare and heroism are seen with their self-contradictions in full display. No nation can go to war until it has found another that can agree to the terms of conflict. Each side must therefore be in complicity with the other: Before I can have an enemy, I must persuade another to recognize me as an enemy. I cannot be a hero unless I can find first find someone who will threaten my life, or, better, take my life. Once under way, warfare and acts of heroism have all the appearance of necessity, but that appearance is but a veil over the often complicated maneuvers by which the antagonists have arranged their conflict with each other." -Finite and Infinite Games

I couldn't help but think of the maybe-war against Iraq when I read this quote. Yes, both sides are complicit in their arrangement to be in conflict with each other. They keep antagonising each other until it leads to war. And they both make the war seem inevitable and necessary, as if the other is the Absolute Evil that needs to be eliminated. Sad, and not very helpful...

[> [> Re: OT but I like your quote -- Haecceity, 20:06:11 01/22/03 Wed

Yes, an unfortunate example of what happens when power is (by the sheer necessity of numbers) restricted to those invested in playing for more/continued power. I'm certain polling of the general populace of both nations would reveal a great reluctance to add to the body count in return for empty titles. There has been outrage and loss on both sides, which looks to be continued for a long while.

---Haecceity
wishing the whole "can't we just get along" bit had not become such a jaded cliche

[> Yay Haecceity! Missed ya! -- ponygirl, 07:24:51 01/22/03 Wed

So good to see your name on the board again! Sorry to hear about the stress and the demon roommate. I hope all resolves without too much soul-sucking.

As for my non-spoilery spec, with all this this talk of power I think Buffy's going to be faced with a big temptation. Not a Last Temptation of a normal life, she already passed that one last year with Normal Again. But a big all the power in the world kind of triumph where she's going to have to decide whether she trusts enough to share her power. I've always thought the true test of any leader is what they do when they're asked to give up power-- it's the test that divides the democracies from the dictatorships. To realize that her power is connected to something larger and therefore not something she can own. Like you say it's a transition from a warrior to a Buddha, and I think it's going to be a hard thing for Buffy since it's all about surrender and letting go, rather than fighting, something's she's wired to see as a defeat rather than a victory.

[> [> [> [> the true test of any leader is what they do when they're asked to give up power -- Haecceity, 20:17:57 01/22/03 Wed

Love this: "I think it's going to be a hard thing for Buffy since it's all about surrender and letting go, rather than fighting, something's she's wired to see as a defeat rather than a victory."

I think this really sums up so much about Buffy's journey from the Prophecy Girl who wanted to give away this frightening power/destiny and seek solace in "normal" life through her growth and acceptance of the difference she could effect in people's live through the use of her powers (The Prom/Graduation Day)to a glimmering of the seduction of power (the whole Initiative thing) at the time checked by her reliance upon her friend's strengths (Primeval), but now, fed by her Saved the World A Lot Martyr trials growing encompassing, threatening, the target of manipulation by evil forces. Really looking forward to see how it all plays out, if she comes full circle and sees the sharing of power not as a rejection of duty but as a next step towards the wholeness of her friends and her Self.

[> Welcome back, Haecceity! Please--more posts! Long ones! -- cjl, 09:19:37 01/22/03 Wed

[> Slayer lineage -- Has Buffy forgotten (or, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely) -- yez, 10:07:56 01/22/03 Wed

Great post. I share your concerns about where Buffy's headed, power, etc. I was thinking about what it meant that Buffy stated (and may have stated or implied more than once) that "when I die" the next slayer will be called, possibly one of the SITs she's training. But Buffy is not The Slayer -- the line is with Faith now. Buffy is like the Acting Slayer while Faith is otherwise occupied, though I'm sure she feels that with her special abilities comes responsibility to do what she can. Of course, there isn't the kind of hierarchy that would make these things matter, except for the whole death thing. Unless something changes.

So I've been wondering why Buffy would say that and what it could mean. Has she forgotten about Faith? Seems unlikely, especially now with all the stuff going on directly related to wiping out the slayer line. So is it that she prefers to think of herself as the one in charge, as the uncontestable general in this new army of hers? This may point to an exploration of the power corrupts factor.

Or is it simply a matter of teaching style? Is she trying to keep it simple at first for her new students ("There is only one slayer at a time and I'm it") before moving on to more complex issues ("... Actually, there are two slayers because...")? Not bringing up the whole two slayer thing would also definitely make it seem more serious for the SITs, which is what she's trying to accomplish it seems.

I'm sure there are other possibilities, too.

yez

[> Agree on your theory here...more thoughts on power and strength -- shadowkat, 15:03:13 01/22/03 Wed

Missed you - glad to see you back. Completely identify with the roommate scenerio. Reminds me of my freshman roommate.
Sang very loudly in the shower, in the stairwell, wandered about with just a robe or towel and felt the need to keep the dorm room unlocked all the time, regardless if we were in it or not. Did not understand why I locked it when we were both out and refused to carry her keys with her when she went five two flights down to the lounge. We were living in a huge dorm. I could go on. It ended badly, very much like Buffy and Kathy did come to think of it. sigh. Wish you much better luck.

Onto my continued fascination with your posts on finite and infinite games. I think you're on to something here. And it juxtaposes nicely with manwitch and my theory that by the end of the season Buffy may have to give up her power and role of the Slayer. Have you seen manwitch's great posts about how the FE separates people from one another?

I think Buffy keeps swinging between two roles this year and is struggling to figure out which fits: Buffy the counselor or Buffy the slayer. In Bring on The Night, she attempts to leave one for the other - but Principal Wood insists she come back again, "you're well? Okay, then I expect you back at work now". The two roles are interesting.

Guidance Counselor - this is all about lending your strength to others. Guiding them on their path.
It is in a way a role for the infinite game - the role Giles played with Willow, Xander and Buffy that went counter to the Watcher Council.

The definition of strength you use: A strong person is one who carries the past into the future, showing that none of its issues is capable of [final] resolution [=end, death of continued play, i.e. existence]

And

Strength cannot be measured, because it is an opening, not a closing act. Anyone can be strong. Strength is paradoxical. I am not strong because I can force others to do what I wish *as a result of my play with them*, but because I can allow them to do what they wish *in the course of my play with them*."

Sorry for separating these out - but most guidance counselors live by these precepts. You don't force someone to pick or choose, you help them, you provide them with the possibilities.

How has Buffy been a guidance counselor this season?
1. Help - she tries to find out what's wrong with Cassie and investigates, and lends her strength through Dawn.
But she is struggling here. In some ways she still relies on slayer rules. Note her comment to Xander - "Slayer Buffy would break down the door. Counselor Buffy - waits" - this when they are waiting to talk to Cassie's father.

2. Same Time Same Place - another struggle. She tries to force the info out of Spike, is impatient, leaps to the conclusion it is Willow. But Counselor buffy - lends Willow her strength without judgement. Counselor Buffy listens.

3. Beneath You - another struggle - she does listen though in the final scene in the church.

4. Selfless - we see her split in two downstairs in the basement. Slayer Buffy who wants to force Spike out and Counselor Buffy who listens and comforts or is it the other way around?

5. Him - another struggle. Counselor Buffy though finally raises her head and talks to Dawn, tells Dawn that she shouldn't die for any boy. But it is a struggle for her.
She keeps wanting to force the issue.

6. Sleeper - another struggle. Slayer buffy wants to kill the bad guy. Counselor Buffy finally sits back and listens, realizes more is going on and that the bad guy isn't really bad.

7. CwDP - Counselor Buffy gets her own supernatural Counselor - who she admits some of her counseling issues to.
While in counseling - we see some of those issues that she isn't seeing too going on around her.

8. Never LEave Me - Counselor Buffy is working hard here.
She is counseling Spike. While Xander/Anya team is working more like Slayer Buffy beating Andrew - with bad cop/good cop routine. Counselor Buffy is able with the help of her team to determine what is wrong with Spike and how to help him and that is when FE hits them - because Counselor Buffy emerged?

Being The Slayer - has always been about being empowered to slay yours and your friends demons. It is about "power" but not the power to eradicate evil as Buffy and Giles have come to believe, rather the power to keep evil in balance.
Since Joyce is right evil itself can never be eradicated - you'd destroy good too.

Power is a feature only of finite games. Where the finite player plays *to be powerful* the infinite player plays *with strength*. A powerful person is one who brings the past to an outcome, settling all its unresolved issues.
Power is concerned with what has already happened; strength with what has yet to happen. Power is finite in amount.Power refers to the freedom persons have *within* limits, strength to the freedom persons have *with* limits. Power will always be restricted to a relatively small number of selected persons.

In Buffy's dream in Restless and in Willow's dream - there are two guides. One is Tara - who speaks, keeps asking questions, one is The First Slayer who preys, stalks and in Buffy's dream fights and forces her will. Tara in Buffy's dream is dressed like the great counselor, the awakened one.
The First Slayer is dressed like a primitive animal. It occurred to me for the first time reading your post that maybe these two figures are both the slayer, both Buffy.
This would explain the Guide who speaks to Buffy in Intervention who in her speech combines the First Slayer and Tara's guidance. Also in Season 6 - Tara takes the place of Joyce - giving similar guidance.

Joyce and Giles.

Giles - who tells Buffy she has tremendous power and must make sure not to drop her elbow and how to kill vampires and the black and white rules of the demon world handed down over the ages. The school Librarian - who governs the books, the records, the rules.

Joyce - who tells Buffy she has tremendous strength and courage and love. (My good strong brave Buffy). Who trusts Buffy with Dawn. Who has coco with Spike. Who tells Buffy in Normal Again she believes in her - advice Buffy passes on to Spike. Who lends buffy her strength. The Nurturer.
The single Mom. The keeper of the home front, the one who died when it was her time without fanfare.

We have a tendency to think "power" in of itself is bad. No that's not it. Nor is it what you are saying here. What's going on...is well Buffy learning that world doesn't fit into the easy boxes of right and wrong, good and evil it once did. Notice the contradictions in Potential and the other episodes. Particularly surrounding Spike and how Buffy defines good and evil. Vampires are remorseless animals without free will - the soul provides the free will.
Animals are evil? Drinking is wrong. But then kindly Clem appears who she hugs. Spike reminds them he's a vampire.
Crypts are dens for vampires, horrible nests. Spike says not all vampires live in them, some live rather well, although he lived in a crypt - it was posh, comfy. How can a crypt be comfy? Buffy's rulebook is well becoming as unreliable and insubstantial as Giles appears to be to the audience. The creators of her rulebook? Gone. Then we have the contrast between Dawn's fight with the vampire and harbringers, which she does without three potential slayers helping and with a plan and without weapons in hand and in direct contrast to Buffy's speech/lecture to the potentials.
(See Aresthusa's post on this below in Living in Your shadow thread.)

I think power is bad - when we begin to believe we are gods.

"[In looking at opposition from the view of infinite play] warfare and heroism are seen with their self-contradictions in full display. No nation can go to war until it has found another that can agree to the terms of conflict. Each side must therefore be in complicity with the other: Before I can have an enemy, I must persuade another to recognize me as an enemy. I cannot be a hero unless I can find first find someone who will threaten my life, or, better, take my life. Once under way, warfare and acts of heroism have all the appearance of necessity, but that appearance is but a veil over the often complicated maneuvers by which the antagonists have arranged their conflict with each other."

When we consider ourselves the Power! When Buffy believes she is THE LAW, THE SLAYER, THE SAINT, THE SAVIOR, THE ONE THAT MONSTERS FEAR...a shiver of unease creeps along my spine. Remember the Thunderdom reference - in that movie,
Mel Gibson had the power - he went in to defeat what appeared on the surface to be a monster - but was in reality a kind, man who didn't know any better. UberSlayer vs. Ubervamp? And then we have Andrew's references: License to Kill - just because you have the power, you're James Bond with a license to kill - does that mean you should?
Buffy to Dawn in Villains: "Being the slayer doesn't mean i have a license to kill." Then the DragonBall Z reference - the idea of a game, an infinite unwinnable balancing game between two opponents. (I've seen only a few of these episodes, but the cartoon is very video game oriented). and in the DragonBall Z - characters change sides. Finally the constant tedious referals to the current Star Wars anthology - in Star Wars - Anakin Skywalker becomes the evil Darth Vader because he is corrupted by power, he wants to eradicate evil, to make the world into what he wants it to be. Luke, his son, chooses to save Darth Vader to find the good in his father - rather then kill him or eradicate him as the evil Emperor hopes. Killing Darth would have turned Luke to the dark side, attempting to save Darth as Darth is trying to kill him - ends up redeeming them both.
Darth ends up killing himself, giving up his power - to save his son, killing the evil emperor instead.

I think Buffy has been walking a line between these two sides for quite a while, struggling between the counselor and the slayer, trying to be both. We see it in earlier seasons - with Willow, Xander, and Faith...but often the slayer has to do the work. I think this season, she may end up giving up the slayer mantel - which many ways is the one we carry as children and young adults, when our fears are simpler and can be boxed into good and evil categories and our demons can be slaughtered and taking on the mantel of the guidance counselor who knows that some fears, some evils can't be eradicated with a sword or a stake or slayed, they can only be understood and somehow listened to.
You can only lend your strength to others and hope they make it through. The song in Sleeper says it well - "I can't force you to change, I don't have the bribery in place"...but I can lend you my strength. And the song in CWDP - Where were you when I fell? - you may not be able to slay the evil in me, but you can help me to see the good and lend me your strength and in return I lend you mine.

We've seen this happen several times this season -

1. Same Time Same Place - Buffy lending it to Willow
2. Help - Buffy stopping Spike from hitting himself, asking for his help
3. Never Leave Me - Buffy telling Spike he could become a better man, she believed in him
4. Him - Xander realizing it was the jacket causing the spell and giving his strength to Dawn and having Spike help him and letting Spike move out of the basement into his place. Buffy asking Anya to move in with her - to rejoin them.
5. Potential - Xander encouraging Dawn.

I think - this trend will continue. And when the characters get stripped down to their essences, I think it is their ability to lend their strength to one another that will see them through.

Again good post.Hope I added and didn't just repeat.

SK

PS: Completely agree - what happened to Chloe - the Disney Slayer (??) (Unless you meant Rona - who is still there).
Also wonder if this is how they'll get rid of them...quietly kill them off screen and see if anyone notices. ;-)

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