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Article: 'Buffy' unwrapped before her time. no spoilers just a story about spoiler whores. -- Rufus, 02:02:54 01/22/03 Wed

www.theglobeandmail.com

Buffy unwrapped before her time

Some satellite dish owners have been intercepting
TV network feeds and posting updates about popular shows
on the Web before they hit the airwaves. Wildfeeds,
CATHERINE DAWSON MARCH discovers, have an enthusiastic following


By CATHERINE DAWSON MARCH

Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - Page R1


'Spoiler whore' may not sound like a compliment, but to some it's a moniker of honour.

Leon Hussissian earned it by tuning in satellite transmissions in the middle of the night and giving fans of the TV drama Buffy the Vampire Slayer what they crave most: detailed story descriptions before the show airs on television.

"I am proud to call myself a spoiler whore," he writes in an e-mail. (Wary of strangers, telephone contact was vetoed. With some coaxing he agreed to be identified for this article. Hussissian isn't doing anything illegal as long as he doesn't provide video clips or reprint the script, but a committed spoiler whore can't be too careful.)

About 36 hours before most of North America watches Buffy on Tuesday nights, Hussissian punches a set of co-ordinates into his satellite tuner. His big dish swings to find the correct bird, and for the next hour he's in heaven: Buffy without commercials. He takes notes, then posts details on his Web site (http://www.leoffonline.com), which also contains three years of Buffy episode spoilers as well as details on past seasons of Alias, Angel and Enterprise.

There's no money in it, but the 35-year-old audio-visual technician from Wauconda, Ill., says he enjoys the attention from the on-line spoiler community, some of whom, he explains, "have become a second family." For him the big thrill is "having a secret and you get to blurt it out to everyone."

Cult TV shows draw some satellite owners to wildfeeds, sporting events draw others. Wildfeeds are raw transmissions of TV shows, sporting events or news reports sent via satellite. It's how American networks send shows to their affiliate stations and Canadian broadcasters, and how TV news reporters feed live reports home.

What Hussissian and Victor Fernandes of Cambridge, Ont., enjoy finding are the feeds they are not supposed to be watching.

"I can find channels that people are paying $20 a month for," brags Fernandes, who has been watching wildfeeds for more than 20 years. He has a 16-foot satellite dish in his backyard, though it will be replaced by a 35-footer -- that's right, big enough to fill your back yard -- that he recently bought.

Knowing where the wildfeeds are isn't just a hobby, it is his business. He sells and services big dishes, but mostly spends time hunting down European soccer games, Brazilian soap operas and Arabic channels for his customers.

Some of those feeds are listed on Web sites or in a satellite listings guide, but true wildfeeders prefer to go it alone: "It's got to be up there some place," he says, "If you've got a big enough dish you can find it."

Doug Skinner, director of the C-Band Alliance of Canada, a satellite lobby group, kindly describes Fernandes and Hussissian as "dedicated satellite surfers."

"They'll sit up all night searching the skies for these wildfeeds. They'll phone each other and say: 'Look, I just found the Canadiens playing Toronto,' and 20 of them will swing their satellites over and watch that feed. It's a techie thing: I can get it, you can't."

Many of these feeds are sent unscrambled over public airwaves, but are considered "off-air" by the industry.

Wildfeeds are worth finding because there are no commercials, no station logos and, if you are lucky, no sense of propriety by the play-by-play announcers or reporters using the feed.

"You can catch some funny, off-colour stuff because they assume no one is watching," says Skinner, whose back-yard 7-foot, 6-inch dish has picked up a number of unguarded moments.

For the most part, it's silly stuff, like U.S. President George Bush using a sound check to remind listeners that he's not Saturday Night Live comedian Dana Carvey (revealed in the satirical 1992 documentary Feed) or Arnold Schwarzenegger practising a chuckle or George Stephanopoulos powdering his nose.

But it can get bitchy, such as when Tom Brokaw was caught dissing Dan Rather. In 1996, Brokaw was anchoring The NBC Nightly News from the Republican convention in San Diego. While rehearsing segments over the satellite link with staff in New York he made disparaging remarks about Rather's news judgment. The comments were picked up by 25-year-old wildfeeder Jed Rosenzweig. He is a video artist who, at the time, was compiling his favourite wildfeed funnies into a New York public-access cable show called Wild Feed TV. The Brokaw tape was his biggest coup, but threatening letters from NBC lawyers, who called the satellite interception illegal, kept that clip off the air.

To catch a wildfeed, you've got to have the right equipment, and when it comes to satellite dishes, size matters. Small pizza-like dishes won't do, they're not powerful enough and work on a different frequency. It's the large dishes, at least the 6-foot wide receivers, that are needed.

Big-dish owners who add consumer channel services, such as Bell ExpressVu, StarChoice or the illegal-in-Canada U.S. DirectTV, to their set-ups will have to disable those systems to search for wildfeeds.

The motors on the big dishes, also known as C-Band or Ku analogue receivers, need to be able to swing the dish, allowing it to lock onto satellites in different geostationary orbits.

It's an expensive hobby. Satellite starter kits begin at $2,000, and that goes up if you want to receive digital signals. Broadcasters and production companies, such as CBC and Warner Bros., are switching over to digital satellite feeds. It's more economical (several digital signals fit where one analogue picture did) and somewhat more secure. Tuning in a digital wildfeed requires newer, more expensive equipment, which the majority of satellite owners don't have.

That's why ER spoiler sites (ER is produced by Warner Bros.) are few and far between, while Buffy (still sent on an analogue feed) has spoiler whores trumpeting their wares all over the Web.

The move to digital transmissions may make things harder for dedicated satellite surfers, or those who, like Hussissian, feel "a self-appointed debt to the spoiler whores of Buffy," but it won't make it impossible. They won't let it. "I found stuff yesterday that no one knew was up there," says Fernandes.

"You just have to keep looking."
Catherine Dawson March is a columnist with Globe Television.
[> Leoff !!! -- AurraSing, 06:44:27 01/22/03 Wed

It's nice to see the man get some acknowledgement outside of our circles.
Thanks for this!
[> Interesting, thanks. -- yez, 10:54:42 01/22/03 Wed

Order.......spoilers for Potential -- Rufus, 04:28:35 01/22/03 Wed

Potential, the Summers house is full up with Potentials....they are important, they have been chosen, they have the potential to be the Slayer.....have the power...and this year it's all about power. This episode is Dawn-centric, klutzy Dawn, who seems like a walking joke, but also has enough knowledge about monsters that even Amanda calls her an expert. Dawn isn't a potential, and the potentials are important, at least right now they are. Buffy has been building an army of potentials to save the world from the First, and Dawn is feeling just a bit left out til Willow's spell seems to prove that she is now an important one, a potential. But it was not to be.....Amanda is the potential (as in Slayer) and Dawn is back to being Dawn. This is where the most important conversation of the evening happens...........from cc and notes


Dawn: WHAT'S UP?

Xander: OH, I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT THE GIRLS. IT'S A HARSH GIG, BEING A POTENTIAL. JUST BEING PICKED OUT OF A CROWD. DANGER, DESTINY, PLUS, IF YOU ACT NOW, DEATH.

Dawn: THEY CAN HANDLE IT.

Xander: YEAH. THEY'RE SPECIAL, NO DOUBT. AND THE AMAZING THING IS: NOT ONE OF THEM WILL EVER KNOW. NOT EVEN BUFFY.

Dawn: KNOW WHAT?

Xander: HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR THE REST OF US.

Dawn: NO WAY. THEY'VE GOT--

Xander: 7 YEARS, DAWN. WORKING WITH THE SLAYER. SEEING MY FRIENDS GET MORE AND MORE POWERFUL--A WITCH, A DEMON. HELL, I COULD FIT OZ IN MY SHAVING KIT, BUT COME A FULL MOON, HE HAD A WOLFY MOJO NOT TO BE MESSED WITH. POWERFUL...ALL OF THEM. AND I'M THE GUY WHO FIXES THE WINDOWS.

Dawn: WELL, YOU HAD THAT SEXY ARMY TRAINING FOR A WHILE, AND...AND THE WINDOWS REALLY DID NEED FIXING.

Xander: I SAW WHAT YOU DID LAST NIGHT.

Dawn: YEAH, I--I GUESS I KIND OF LOST MY HEAD WHEN I THOUGHT
I WAS THE SLAYER.

Xander: WELL, YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE ALL SPECIAL, MISS SUNNYDALE 2003. AND THE MINUTE YOU FOUND OUT YOU WEREN'T, YOU HANDED THE CROWN TO AMANDA WITHOUT A MOMENT'S PAUSE. YOU GAVE HER YOUR POWER.

Dawn: THE POWER WASN'T MINE.

Xander: THEY'LL NEVER KNOW HOW TOUGH IT IS, DAWNIE, TO BE THE ONE WHO ISN'T CHOSEN, TO LIVE SO NEAR TO THE SPOTLIGHT AND NEVER STEP IN IT, BUT I KNOW. I SEE MORE THAN ANYBODY REALIZES BECAUSE NOBODY'S WATCHING ME. I SAW YOU LAST NIGHT. I SEE YOU WORKING HERE TODAY.
YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL. YOU'RE EXTRAORDINARY.

Dawn: MAYBE THAT'S YOUR POWER.

Xander: WHAT?

Dawn: SEEING. KNOWING.

Xander: MAYBE IT IS. MAYBE I SHOULD GET A CAPE.

Dawn: CAPE IS GOOD.


The Potentials have the chance to be part of the Slayer line....power and perhaps death. What we saw tonight was what happens with the people who are next to the potential. Xander sees he knows more than people give him credit for....and he misses out on just what his potential is. Remember in Sleeper, the First says....

First Evil Spike: THERE'S AN ORDER. SLAYER'S NOT IN ORDER.

Buffy isn't in order, but we don't know for sure exactly what that means. But let's look at Xander, he is a carpenter that builds things fixes the house Buffy lives in.....he preserves order in a way that even he misses..perhaps he is just one in a long line of mortals who created such a strong hold on reality by the act of building and rebuilding houses.

From Herders dictionary of symbols:
House: As an ordered, enclosed area like the CITY or the temple, it symbolizes the COSMOS or cosmic order.

Xander builds things fixes Buffys house....he is in charge of order in Buffy's real world, he is valuable in ways he just can't understand. He is the one that preserves order by the act of building, just as Buffy preserves order by slaying...they need each other. Xander is an important link to the mortal world that Buffy needs to do her job. It's what has helped her get this far. Season seven is about what happens when a series of events.......magic, love, ressurection create a situation where the cosmic balance is disturbed enough for the First to take an opportunity to change order as we see it in the Buffyverse. Buffy has her part to play but so does everyone.....the witch, the carpenter, ex-demon, former key, soulled vampire, annoying virgin, the potentials. Buffy may have been what brought all these people together, but they all, even a carpenter, has a place in the order that will be needed in the end. If you look closely at some of the things that keep getting repeated we see that love plays a big part in how balance can go awry or be restored.

Dawn also has a place in this order, even if her memories are made up, even if she is a part of Buffy that shouldn't exist. Dawn like Xander has a potential of her own that I feel we may not have fully realized. Everyone has a place in the order in the Buffyverse, important in their own way...parts that will join together to create a power of their own that just may ruin the plans of the First....and after that, Xander can continue preserving order by fixing the house fulfilling his potential.
[> Re: Order.......spoilers for Potential -- MaeveRigan, 08:15:12 01/22/03 Wed

Fascinating stuff, Rufus! Thanks. I loved Xander & Dawn at the end of "Potential," and I think you've really hit on some key elements of B7.

Dawn may not be a potential Slayer, but she may very well turn out to be like Buffy in that she doesn't know "what's to come ... what you are. You haven't even begun" (Tara, speaking for the First Slayer in Buffy's "Restless" dream).
[> [> Re: Order.......spoilers for Potential -- Michael, 12:55:06 01/22/03 Wed

Great stuff Rufus. I too wondered about Xander's speech and you nailed down some symbolic undertones that I was catching.
What if the FE is pissed because what the Slayer and The Witch and The Carpenter have done is create a new order of the cosmos? Isn't interesting that of all the people Buffy could have picked at Sunnydale, she chose Willow and Xander?
I couldn't help but think of Xander as a new type of Watcher after that speech to Dawn.
Keep up the good work, Rufus. I like your stuff.
How much of shipping is... -- Majin Gojira, 05:39:44 01/22/03 Wed

How much of shipping is just projection on part of the viewer, and how much of it is actually thinking for the character in the long run?

I believe that most ardent shippers are guily or projection at least in some part. especially when dealing with Fanfiction. it kind of scares me when I see how ardent the projection can be.

Any opinions, comments, public addmissions of guilt?
[> Re: How much of shipping is... -- Cactus Watcher, 06:01:06 01/22/03 Wed

Not exactly a shipper of any sort here, but I took enough psychology way back when, that I can say by and large most projection you're describing is a healthy outlet for emotions. It gets unhealthy when it happens to the exclusion of emotional links with real people. Also it's unhealthy when people start mistaking the stars for the characters they play, or begin thinking they can interact in the real world with such characters (the beginnings of celebrity stalking). As long as people are open to real interction with real people they meet, whether or not they actually plunge into realtionships, there isn't likely to be much problem.
[> what 'is' shipping (please)? -- frisby, 07:25:35 01/22/03 Wed

Please define shipping and shippers? I've seen these terms referred to often but have never had an adequate handle on them. (I probably am one therefore.)
[> [> Relation'ship' -- Scroll, 07:46:37 01/22/03 Wed

Basically when you like the interaction (romantic or otherwise) between two characters and you relation-ship them. If I say I'm a B/A 'shipper, it means I prefer the Buffy/Angel relationship over any other romantic relationship for either character. If I say I'm a X-D 'shipper (I'm assuming a hyphen for non-romantic), I mean that I love the Xander-Dawn relationship. Since Buffy and Angel are such hugely character-driven TV shows, many of us feel the need to push for our favourite ships to get screen time, or we feel the need to defend our ships against non-believers (in a friendly, non-flamey way).
Kennedy??????-rant miner spoilage -- cthulhu1592, 05:55:12 01/22/03 Wed

OK so i get it shes gay? to quote Anya "whoooo Hooo."
ok so shees hot and messing with Willow. But does it really matter? Willow twentysomthing Kennedy 16. in most states its illegal and i doubt anything will happen. As a pervert fanboy id love some wrestling but they should just stop dropping little clues. the line in Potentials about the feel of wood in the hand and kennedys responce of something like "you lost me there" was more annoying than ammusing.move on with the plot or get it out in the open allready.
[> Re: Kennedy??????-rant miner spoilage -- M, 06:26:48 01/22/03 Wed

How do you know that Kennedy is 16? The only time I remember anyone saying anything about age was when Kennedy said she thought she could be getting too old to be called as the next slayer
[> [> Re: Kennedy??????-rant miner spoilage -- Mystery, 06:35:38 01/22/03 Wed

Taken from Psyche...here's the description of Kennedy from the shooting script.

KENNEDY, 19, the oldest of the bunch. She's tough and wry - takes all the mysticism associated with the Slayer gig with a serious grain of salt.
DISGRUNTLED AND DISGUSTED - WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR HEROS? Spoilers -- Angelina, 06:58:42 01/22/03 Wed

I am really disgusted and upset about this entire season 7 and the fact that this actually looks like it may be the final season of my favorite show and favorite television character of all time - Buffy. I am totally disappointed in the entire "slayers in training" plot line. It is not worthy of so much air time ESPECIALLY since interaction between our beloved CORE characters are left wanting in favor of the barely bearable scenes of these hideous, whiney young nitwits. It is demoralizing to watch the potentials, because it is slapping us in the face with the fact that Buffy is done. AND NONE OF these girls can ever take her place or even come close. I am disappointed in the writers, ESPECIALLY Joss Wheadon, who, when all is said and done, is the one making all the decisions on the direction of this show, Joss, who is allowing this muddled plot line to ramble on to the end of season seven - and the series finale! WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? There are 11 shows left of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and where the hell are we? No where. Can anyone out there actually phantom one of these twerps actually being called as the next slayer? Well MAYBE Kennedy, but as it is going now, this is no way for Buffy to go out. Sorry. All this talk about her ego expanding this season, how she is calling herself THE Slayer. Well guess what folks, SHE IS THE SLAYER. What, Faith is the "real" slayer? Faith has shown very bad bad judgment folks, and besides that fact, She's in Jail and Buffy has been left doing Faith's job! HELLO. Yeah, even if I thought she was having ego problems, which I do NOT, she has every right to. Save the World Much Buffy? I am just seething with resentment at what is being allowed to happen to this show. It reminds me of the pitiful last season of another of my favorite shows and characters, The X Files. I wanted more for Buffy than a lame-ass ending to a wonderful, creative and memorable show. I don't see how ME can salvage the rest of this series. I can only hope Joss realizes what is happening to his "baby" and throws out the rest of the scripts and writes the last 10 shows himself. Let Buffy go out a winner. And please, by all means, kill off every single one of these whiney little brats! (Except for Kennedy) Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. We need more air time for our heros, Buffy, Giles, Willow, Xander, Spike and Anya to tidy up the plot line of the First Evil, kick its ass from here to hell and walk off into the sunset (Spike wrapped in blanket, of course) as what remains of Sunnydale burns to the ground behind them. Buffy can now retire and lead a normal life, but first goes off on a nice vacation with Spike, perhaps to Africa, where Spike is rewarded with his humanity. Giles goes back to England to train the new slayer (it can be Kennedy, but she doesn't show up again until the LAST episode). Anya leaves town to find herself. Xander and Willow? I don't know, but I hope it is a happily ever after ending for them and the series. We have been through too much with these characters to allow them to go out with a tiny little whimper. The way the show is going now, it is almost too painful for me to watch.
[> You need to stop holding it all in and tell us how you really feel ;o) -- CW, 07:22:12 01/22/03 Wed

Seriously, it's sad the series seems to be wrapping up for good and all. But, we need to remember where Buffy started. I can't quote you which episode it was in, but when she was called and when she fought her first vampire she was just the same sort of whinny young thing as the current potentials are. We need to see how far Buffy has come. Like it or not the story of the slayer has always been the same. Some girl who wasn't really ready, no matter how much training she had, was picked and she did what she could. Buffy did great. Faith did bad. Even when the series ends the story goes on if only in our imaginations.
[> Now, now, now. Deep Breaths. It will be okay. -- Spike Lover, 09:55:34 01/22/03 Wed

It is good to vent, isn't it?

I feel your pain. I hated last season except for OMWF and the sex, and it completely hit bottom (for me) with AR, which I will not be rehashing anymore. I also saw nothing promising this season until Conversations with Dead People and again when the SIT came to visit. (I thought it was a saving grace. Just my opinion.) (I sort of feel that Angel the series has completely lost its way, at times.)

I also agree that Buffy's 'behavior' in the school setting is not realistic by any means.

ONe thing about Joss is that he or his writers are always full of surprises. Sometimes, they just hit on something interesting and unexpected. (Lilah & Wesley on Angel)

I too watched the X-Files until the bitter end (and it was very BITTER- particularly that final, ridiculous series finale). But I really hated the last couple of seasons of the X-Files, and still think Buffy is a great deal better than X-F because Joss has a great deal less fear than Chris Carter.

You may be disgusted with what they are doing on Buffy, and you have every right, but is there something else pressing for your time on Tuesday nights at 7/8 central?

By the way, are you going to watch that new show on ABC about the miracle investigator starting MOnday? parental discretion is advised, so I will be tuning in.
Andrew and Snakes Questions (Potential 'the ep' Spoilers) -- neaux, 07:03:06 01/22/03 Wed

Ok. Could some one answer a question for me.

Was Andrew's statement to Willow about snakes leaving their skin a throw to Willow's de-skinning of Warren?
And if it was, I cant recall, Was it ever stated to Andrew and Johnathan that Warren was skinned?

Because I dont know how to take his statement. Was Andrew just not realizing what he was saying or did he really not know about how Warren died?

If someone could tell me which episode it was where Andrew and Johnathan found out how Warren died, then I can stop racking my brain.
[> Re: Andrew and Snakes Questions (Potential 'the ep' Spoilers) -- Dee, 07:07:48 01/22/03 Wed

I think it was in the episode right after Warren was killed-didn't Anya appear in Andrew's prison cell and tell them that Willow had skinned Warren?
[> [> sounds familiar.. I think you are right. -- neaux, 07:36:53 01/22/03 Wed

[> He knows -- Scroll, 07:42:05 01/22/03 Wed

I can't remember which episode he learns about Willow taking off Warren's skin (I'll go with Dee on "Two to Go") but Andrew and Jonathan definitely knew how Warren died before they even returned to Sunnydale.

As for Andrew's snake comment, I really think he didn't make the connection between Willow flaying Warren and his snake puppet.
[> [> Re: He knows -- Tess, 08:31:43 01/22/03 Wed

I don't think Andrew made the connection either, although Willow did. Maybe Andrew's entire purpose this season is to be an uncomfortable reminder to Willow of her past sins.

Actually the first thought that came to my mind at Andrew's comments was the fish people in 'Go Fish' because I'd just watched that episode that afternoon.
[> [> I don't think he made the connection, either--I didn't, so thanks for pointing out! -- yez, 08:39:11 01/22/03 Wed

I also had the impression that he knew about the skinning. When he first runs into Willow again, does his pleading include asking not to be flayed? I could be manufacturing that...

yez
[> [> Re: He knows -- Malandanza, 08:59:38 01/22/03 Wed

From CWDP:

JONATHAN (to Andrew): Of course I'm scared! The last time we were here thirty-three-point-three-barred percent out us got flayed alive. And now we're driving right back into the belly of the beast.

(psyche)

But I don't think Andrew intentionally brought up the flaying -- he didn't connect it (Willow and Dawn sure did though :)
[> [> [> Re: He knows -- leslie, 12:03:02 01/22/03 Wed

Yet it's interesting that Andrew's snake fantasy was about shedding your skin and being renewed, and about shedding your skin as a natural, nonfatal trait. So, a) was he indeed thinking about Warren and slipping back into his usual Warren-will-save-me fantasy (Warren was able to survive the flaying because shedding one's skin is natural); b) was he thinking this, and also thereby subtly threatening Willow that Warren wasn't as out of the picture as they might think; c) was he thinking in terms of the shape-shifty, ever-renewing First Evil; d) was he honestly thinking about his chances of "shedding" his evil persona and renewing himself, a la Spike (this scene did come after the exchange in the kitchen, didn't it, when he asked why Spike gets to be trusted and he doesn't)?

Actually, given the feminist mythology take on snakes--snakes are symbols of birth, rebirth, the unconscious, the chthonic, the primordial--it's also interesting that shortly after this we get Andrew's whole--and incredibly bizarre--paean to emerging womanhood. I really think he's well on his way out of the closet, whether he realizes it or not.
[> [> over -- sutton, 09:05:08 01/22/03 Wed

is it a done deal that this is the final season?
[> Actually, I'm not so sure Andrew knows -- Holdemfoldem, 08:34:39 01/22/03 Wed

I'm pretty sure that in the jail scene when Anya teleports over and visits Jonathan and Andrew in prison, they ask for Anya to break down what's happened and why they're in danger. She does, simply saying that Willow killed Warren. Then they say something like, "she killed Warren?", to which she replies something like, "Yes. Tore him to pieces and left a bloody mess all over the forest in the process. And now she's coming for you!"

I'm pretty sure that actual flaying (sp?) or skinning alive was never mentioned.

Therefore, Andrew probably doesn't know PRECISELY how Warren died, down to the detail necessary to slam Willow with a shedding snake skin reference. Also, I don't think that if he was remembering that grisly event, he would make light of it by his follow up (nerdy) remarks about how cool it would be if humans could shed their skins as well.

Oh well, that's my take.
[> What this skin shedding could mean... -- neaux, 08:55:39 01/22/03 Wed

Andrew's statement.. about "wouldn't it be cool if we could leave our skin and walk around..."

something to that extent could actually be foreshadowing. I think it would be interesting if we see Warren come back to visit Willow sans skin. And you know that ME cant get enough of that Skin suit.. they gotta get their money's worth.
[> What I think Andrew meant (Potential 'the ep' Spoilers) -- Robert, 09:33:15 01/22/03 Wed

I don't know whether Andrew knew about Warren's flaying for not, but I don't think he was referring to it even if he did.

I see Andrew's comment as a wistful wish that he could slough off his tainted skin and have a fresh start. He wants absolution from the gang. He makes the comment about shedding his skin in the same episode as his comment about Spike having been more evil. Buffy, of course, slapped him down because he committed his crimes with free will. He knows he screwed up and is now looking for ways to make his discomfort go away.

I speculate that Andrew will ultimately play an important part in the final battle with the First Evil's army, from which he will finally receive his absolution.
[> [> Re: What I think Andrew meant (Potential 'the ep' Spoilers) -- Kenny, 11:01:03 01/22/03 Wed

I'm not sure I want to see him absolved. I'm not convinced that he has the strength of will to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. All he can do with his world is put it in a "literary" context, and everyone, even Warren, are just characters in his story (the really sad part being that he's not even the central character). The only time I've seen him jump out of that was when he told Xander that it hurt him that he killed Jonothan, where he seemed incredibly sincere and human. Until he shows the strength to sustain himself at that level, though, he will continue to align himself with whatever group is around him instead of being an active person himself. Unless that happens, I don't think he deserves absolution.
Birthday Buffy and other musings (Season 7 spoilers) -- Cheryl, 07:28:52 01/22/03 Wed

Does it seem strange to anyone else that no mention has been made this year of Buffy's birthday? Every season (except the first because it didn't start until Spring), there has been an episode this time of year regarding her birthday (no show last week, rerun next week - so this would have been the week, right?:

Second season (17): Buffy loses her virginity; Third Season (18): Giles turns on Buffy to do the Council's stupid test; Fourth Season (19): Suprise party while Riley and Buffy are trying to make out; Fifth Season (20): Right after Riley leaves - no word from him; Sixth Season (21): Halfrek locks everyone in the house during her party.

This entire season has seemed out of whack to me. Willow doesn't seem like Willow (I understand she's in mourning and trying to find herself again, but still), Xander is suddenly Mr. Together Guy, Giles is . . . well, we don't know what Giles is. And Buffy - I'm having a serious problem with the idea that suddenly now if she dies a new slayer is called,when a slayer wasn't called after she died in The Gift. And, while I don't totally agree with Angelina's Disgruntled and Disgusted post, I, too, am disapointed with all the time devoted to the SITs and not the core cast. I was not interested in most of last night's episode, until near the end with Dawn and Amanda and then the final, awesome, totally made the episode for me, scene with Xander and Dawn.

So as we're coming to the end and things seem so off kilter, I am trying to console myself with the thought that Whedon and company have some major surprises up their diabolical sleeves and that I will be astounded and amazed as things unfold - and that everything will come together and make perfect sense when it's all said and done. I'm waiting for that "aha!" moment. But until then, I can't help wondering if everything that's happened since the episode that had the date on it (CWDP?) is actually just happening in someone's head.
[> Re: Birthday Buffy and other musings (Season 7 spoilers) -- Sarand, 12:59:23 01/22/03 Wed

Based on how Buffy's birthday seems to move a bit, I wouldn't conclude yet that there is not going to be a birthday episode. In Seasons 2 and 3, the birthday episodes aired in mid-January, in Season 4 it was in late January but in Seasons 5 and 6 the birthday episodes aired in February. Or maybe they are taking Spike's suggestion during last year's birthday party and are just not celebrating it because bad things always happen.
[> [> My vote goes to the latter - they skipped Halloween as well.*L Dates that bode no good for BtVS. -- Briar Rose (39 and holding!), 17:05:37 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: My vote goes to the latter - they skipped Halloween as well.*L Dates that bode no good for BtVS. -- Cheryl, 20:23:53 01/22/03 Wed

I heard somewhere (one of the DVDs maybe?) that they only do Halloween episodes every other year, so they were off the hook for this year. Season 2 - turned into their costumes, Season 4 - Fear (actual size), Season 6 - Dawn dates a vamp.

I didn't realize some of the birthday episodes aired in February, so I'm hoping, Sarand, that you're right on that. I really hope they don't skip it all together.
[> Okay, I did some checking: -- HonorH, 23:04:29 01/22/03 Wed

I went by episode number rather that air dates and came up with the following:

"Surprise"--2.13
"Helpless"--3.12
"A New Man"--4.12
"Blood Ties"--5.13
"Older and Far Away"--6.13

"Potential" was 7.12. My guess is that Buffy's birthday will be the next new ep. Get ready for pain, people! PAIN!!!
...it devours: A Survey of Season 7 (spoilers for all aired eps) -- Rob, 07:47:11 01/22/03 Wed

I've read a lot of posts here lately that have complained that season 7 on the whole has been putting the FE plot and action before the characters. But, besides two episodes, I would argue the complete opposite.

Let's break it down, episode by episode:

Although the FE was introduced in "Lessons," it took a back seat after that. And "Lessons" really did, at the same time, btw, focus on all the characters.

"Beneath You" started out with the Scoobies trying to find the Big Bad but ended up focusing on Spike and the Xander/Nancy/Ronnie subplot.

"Same Time, Same Place" was totally about Willow. I don't know if the FE was mentioned at all.

"Help," again, about Buffy. No FE to speak of.

"Selfless." All about Anya with some interesting character goodness from everyone. No FE. Except for the "beneath you" shout-out from D'Hoffryn at the end.

"Him." Wacky character fun all around. No FE.

(In fact, around that time, I was getting frustrated that we weren't hearing ANYTHING about the Big Bad.)

Then...Conversations with Dead People came!! An episode that not only brought the FE back but focused on Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Jonathan and Andrew. The characters, again, at this point, still more important than the plot.

Sleeper followed, and the focus was on Spike, but again the FE was in the background. We did get the England stuff going on, but the main point again was character development with Spike and Buffy.

Then Never Leave Me, 75% of which was character-driven. It was only the last act where all the epicy stuff started to happen. Which I loved, btw.

Bring on the Night (an episode that I loved but a lot of people didn't) is where the plot started coming fast and heavy, and the character development took a back seat to trying to find out the FE's plans. And I don't think that's such a bad thing. It needed to be done after so many episodes of not speaking of the Big Bad.

Showtime was the second episode in a row where the plot was more important than the characters.

But then we got Potential, where again, the characters started to become more important. Dawn and Xander, particularly but there was also some nice interaction between Buffy and Spike, as well as an appearance by Clem.

I think that most people are making broad generalizations about the whole season being less character-driven, just because the past couple of episodes have been so spread out that it feels like it's been going on longer than it actually has. There were really only 2 episodes where the characters took a backseat to the plot, and I'd argue that not only were there still some good character moments here and there, but that those 2 episodes were probably necessary to kick the story arc into gear, since there had been very little Big Bad-development before them.

This is similar to last year, where most people forgot by mid-season that the general opinion was that the first quarter of sixth season episodes were very strong. By midseason, most people just thought the whole season sucked (which was not my opinion, of course). And these episodes are better than last season's winter eps!

So try to see this in the perspective of how many eps actually aired, and not the time frame we're seeing them in. In a perfect world, we would have seen Never Leave Me one week, Bring on the Night the next, Showtime the next, Potential the next, and whatever episode follows that the next. The plot at this point I don't think is SUPPOSED to be stretched out as far as it is, but that's a necessary evil of network programming. I'm very looking forward to sweeps, so that we can have a nice group of episodes in a row. It helps the season flow much better.

Rob
[> It's also well to remember that... -- CW, 08:01:56 01/22/03 Wed

this time of year, the season usually bogs down a bit. Personally, except for the feeling that the show is coming apart at the seams logically (and that's still just a feeling), I'm happy with this year's Buffy.
[> Re: ...it devours: A Survey of Season 7 (spoilers for all aired eps) -- ponygirl, 09:02:26 01/22/03 Wed

I got the feeling that Potential was supposed to be our return from the holiday break episode rather than Showtime. There was a sense of "the story thus far" in Potential, reminding us of some info about slayers and vamps, as well the main plot seemed to be in a regrouping phase, both apparently for the FE, and for Buffy with her training of the SITs. I wasn't crazy about this week's ep. mainly because I thought certain things were being stretched out, but a lot of that is my own impatience to see where the story is going. I think there's more of a sense of forward momentum this season than last year-- and that the plot is intimately connected to character development-- and that makes people antsy for answers to all the questions.

Most people would agree that s5 was great but I can remember going nuts with the waiting: what the heck is Dawn, why is Glory not doing anything, how is Glory is Ben (wait, Glory is Ben)? It was a lot more drawn out than I think any of us recall, but once it concluded that was pretty much forgotten because it all came together so beautifully.

I do think, despite not really loving the last 3 episodes, that this is the best season yet. Bring on the sweeps!

ponygirl, proud season 6 supporter and Rob/s6 shipper!
[> A look back: A Survey of Seasons 2-6 (spoilers for all aired eps) -- Calvin, 10:18:10 01/22/03 Wed

I was going to do what Rob did and break down each episode, but to hell with that. You've all seen the eps. Instead, I wanted to look at the overall quality of the eps and see if eps 8-12 have always been a bit slow. I will also try and make a judgement as to whether the eps are more plot-centric and character driven:

SEASON 2

2.8 - The Dark Age
2.9 - What's My Line I
2.10 - What's my Line II
2.11 - Ted
2.12 - Bad Eggs

Not much to speak of plot-wise, with the large exception of WML 1&2. Pretty good eps, though Ted and Bad Eggs are a little corny. One thing to note - these eps are bookended by Lie to Me and Suprise, both outstanding eps.

SEASON 3

3.8 - Lover's Walk
3.9 - The Wish
3.10 - Amends
3.11 - Gingerbread
3.12 - Helpless

**Bias alert** Season 3 is by far my favorite, so it should come as no suprise that I think that all 5 of these eps are strong. Some of the best overall, I think. Almost no season arc stuff to speak of, although Helpless sets up a lot for what is to come (Faith, Wesley, etc).

SEASON 4

4.8 - Pangs
4.9 - Something Blue
4.10 - Hush
4.11 - Doomed
4.12 - A New Man

Quite a bit of season arc stuff, especially post-"Hush". First 3 are good individual eps (Hush, of course, being my Favorite Buffy Episode), but the season really started to drag for me after this. Plot vs. Character? About even, I think.

SEASON 5

5.8 - Shadow
5.9 - Listening to Fear
5.10 - Into the Woods
5.11 - Triangle
5.12 - Checkpoint

This one is tough, because I am tempted to say that is mostly character stuff (Joyce, Bufy & Riley), but those things are so important to the season arc that the line gets very blurry. However, if you ask the question, 'what does this have to do with Glory?', the answer is...sort of. The Glory stuff is almost always there, but not really at the front. Like Into the woods. The reason the Queller was summoned was arc'y, but the ep was pure character. Classic Season 5 - amazing story arc, yet the individual eps don't really stand out. Not bad, but not great.

SEASON 6

6.8 - Tabula Rasa
6.9 - Smashed
6.10 - Wrecked
6.11 - Gone
6.12 - DoubleMeat Palace

Well well well...here we are. Playing Devil's Advocate (but not in an Al Pacino way), I would say that here is precisely where season 6 went off the tracks in a big way, especially after Tabula Rasa. Almost all plot (Willow) and very little character (Buffy & Spike). Not very good, mostly plot.

So! What have we learned? Well, from what I have seen, eps 8-12 have on occasion featured some classic eps, but for the most part they have been eps that have funtioned more to move the plot along. Probably the biggest factor is sweeps. These eps will naturally fall between November and February sweeps months, where they have a tendency to save up for the big eps. Conclusion? Don't be so quick to judge an entire season based on this set of eps. The only thing we can learn from the past is that we aren't even close to being done yet.

Calvin
[> [> I think it's even better than you suggest -- Sophist, 12:45:12 01/22/03 Wed

To me, the important real world distinction is between sweeps and non-sweeps. I think that if you limit your comparison to the Dec/Jan eps from the previous seasons, S7 fits right in:

S2: Ted and Bad Eggs
S3: The Wish, Amends, Gingerbread, Helpless, The Zeppo
S4: Doomed and A New Man
S5: ItW, Triangle, Checkpoint
S6: Gone and DP

Many of these stand out as among the poorer episodes ever on BtVS; I'd probably put 7 of them in my bottom 20. S3 does stand up much better (though S2 remains my personal favorite overall). But S7 is surely no worse than S2 or S4 or S6, and our judgment isn't yet informed by the remainder of the season, which may reveal additional nuances in the last 3 episodes.
[> Re: ...it devours: A Survey of Season 7 (spoilers for all aired eps) -- shadowkat, 10:56:21 01/22/03 Wed

I think some of the criticisms of this season aren't all that different than criticisms I've seen of Season 6, 5, and 4 - in that it has more to do with whether the story is giving the critics (fans) what they want/expect from it.

Part of the problem of focusing too much time and energy on any one thing - is our expectations go up and what we want may run counter to the story the writers want to tell. I
call this resisting the story on the screen. We have to watch it that the story in our heads doesn't conflict or interfer with our enjoyment of the story the creators of the work are telling us. I see this happening with the B/A shippers who won't be happy unless Angel and Buffy are together at the end. (Since this runs counter to the story the writers are telling it won't happen, so if that's the reason you're watching - you're going to be really unhappy.)
I also see it with the Spikeshippers - who won't be happy unless Spike is evil, snarky, or highly present in every scene - since this may run counter to the thematic arc, you are going to be very unhappy. Admit it (not you Rob - I'm speaking generally)- enjoyment of an episode - has a lot to do with which character is featured and if their story is proceeding in a way parallel to what you want or that intrigues you.

We may for instance want more background story on say William/Spike or who and what the First Slayer is or maybe more on what Giles is doing. But Btvs is written largely on theme. Each episodes explores an emotional arc for a character and theme that has to do with growing up. If Spike/William's background fits the theme on growing up, the larger story arc/theme, and pushes Buffy's story forward - we'll get that information - if not, we won't.

Andrew serves a definite purpose thematically and pushes the arc forward. But if you can't stand the character for whatever reason, rational, irrational or otherwise - it will take away from your enjoyment of the show. I personally would have preferred Amy,Jonathan, Webs, Cassie, any number of one-shot or long term supporting characters to Andrew, but Andrew works better than those characters do thematically and as a comparison to Dawn/Xander/Spike...who he is constantly being compared to. HE also serves as the writer's chorus - the character who keeps reminding us that this is a tv show, compares it to pop culture, and questions the actions of the heroine - a role that in previous years had been handled by Xander/Cordelia and Spike respectively, but now that Xander/Cordy and Spike have matured or left the series - the role had to be filled by someone else. Anya also does it to an extent...but she can't question certain things - it's not consistent with her character being a knowledgable demon - in some ways Anya is filling in for Giles. So Andrew is vital - he fills so many roles at once. Unfortunately for me, he grates on my ever living nerve...don't know why this is...but he does.
(Be happy you don't share this problem ;-)And if you do? My sympathies...right there with you. Let's hope for the writers sake and the actor's, we are in the minority.)

Same thing with the proto-slayers - who actually are pretty realistically portrayed. The problem - this being the last season and all - as a fan - you might feel that the proto-slayers are taking the emphasis/screen time away from the actors and characters you want more of. They are a bunch of teenage girls - who from my perspective - aren't really that interesting - they are realistic enough I guess, but hard to distinquish between and for the same reasons I wouldn't want to be at a teen's slumber party or watch one - I don't enjoy eaves dropping on the proto-slayers - again a personal thing. OTOH - I liked the training of them, but was slightly disappointed at the same time - wanted a bit more of the Fool For Love - what did you do wrong? Why did you fail? And less of the gossipy - so are you and Spike an item?? Even though the latter is far more realistic, since if I was a teen slayer, scared out of my whits - I'd be trying desperately to focus on something far less scarey than killing vamps like why my instructor seems to be so chummy with one. I guess it doesn't help - that like Andrew, the proto-slayers grate on my nerves. Although I have hope - I appear to be liking the featured ones better than most fans are: I actually really enjoy Kennedy and Amanda who have the most lines. And Rona - could become interesting. The irritating ones aren't really that present and I suspect will become cannon fodder all too soon.

So you see - so much of our criticism comes from what turns us on about the show. Not sure how much of that criticism is fair or professional. The fact that an actor gets on ones nerves isn't exactly fair criticism in my opinion so much as my own personal thing. But whatever.

At any rate - I agree, I don't see this season as being less character-driven, no less than any of the others. But it is more thematically driven and plot driven than last season seemed to be. They've gone back to using metaphors to explore certain emotional themes.

And I do feel as if the characters are at times serving those themes and plots as opposed to driving them. Rather the plot and themes are driving the characters? Just a gut feeling.

Last night's episode was a heavy one on theme - the theme of who we are, what we want, and how we deal with our external and inner demons on the brink of adolescence. As seen through the eyes of all the potential slayers.

Sleeper - was about drugs, addiction, and struggling not to let your addiction pull your strings. Turn you literally into a sleeper agent, an automaton with no will. Heroine has been known to do that and is also called "juice".

Never Leave Me - was about withdrawl and the struggle to get past the urge. Not be tempted. To fight back and grow up and take responsibility and take back the power.

This is followed by Bring on The Night and Showtime - which deal very strongly with taking back the night and the power.

The characters are also well developed in these.

My difficulty with the season is - too many underdeveloped peripheral characters. I miss the peripherals of seasons past who for some reason held my interest more, even though they were no more developed than these. Is it nostalgia? Have I just watched these episodes too many times? Do I have the same problem Masq and Rah admit to in the posts below - Buffy burnout -Buffy saturation?? Possibly. Perhaps I should take a breather from the board? Or is it that the peripherals are characters I just can't really identify with? Is it an age thing? That most of them are teens played by teens around same age as Dawn? Don't know. Again not sure that's fair professional criticism.

The proto-slayers and peripheral characters do serve the plot and the theme. They also do add something to the other characters. Can't diss them for not doing that.

I have mixed feelings about Season 7. I am enjoying it.
Some episodes have blown me away. Others, shrug, are better than anything else I see on TV, which is saying something, right?

Not sure that made sense. At any rate - do agree with your points.

SK
Speculations (this is what happens when you watch Becomings then Potential...spoilers for both) -- Mystery, 09:01:34 01/22/03 Wed

All quotes from Psyche's site...

WHISTLER: You know, it wasn't supposed to go down like this. Nobody saw you coming. I figured this for Angel's big day, but I thought he was here to stop Acathla, not bring him forth. But you two made with the smootchies and now he's a creep again.

Nobody saw Buffy coming. You see, in the grand scheme of things, Buffy should have stayed dead. If she followed the path of the typical slayer, she wouldn't have been friends with Xander and he would have never resuscitated her. But she came back, and stopped the Master. We saw what happened when the Master DID open the Hellmouth. That's what Wishverse was. The Master still got free and started the Factory. He didn't end existence, he just made it harder to live in. If Buffy didn't live to kill the Master, he would have done the same, only instead of Wishverse Buffy riding into town, Mainverse Kendra would have showed and fought.
Angel wouldn't have lost his soul. He would have been taken by Dru. For all we know, Dru might have been an unwitting agent of the First Evil. The FE might have given her all those visions and influenced her ramblings. Notice how Spike keeps comparing his FE influenced insanity with Dru's. She would have taken Angel and killed him to awaken Acathla. And *poof* end of the world.

But things changed. Buffy became the wild card. It doesn't matter how good a prophet or seer you are, Buffy changes things. Buffy is the catalyst.

In season 2, Buffy didn't have purpose. She wasn't the Slayer anymore. She had died. She fulfilled the destiny that was given to her, and she was without. Kendra was now the Slayer. Yet notice the KENDRA leaves Sunnydale at the end of "What's My Line?" and Buffy stays at the Hellmouth. Because of Buffy, Angel loses his soul, which in one sense must have been to the advantage of the FE. Angelus, one of the more evil and depraved vampires to ever live. Dru is a useful agent, but she's too random to keep under control. Angelus, he's a focused individual, and the type of guy who would do something, just because he could. Let's get him to destroy the world. Buffy is too in love with him to kill him.
Suddenly, Kendra is killed, Giles is taken, the portal is beginning to open and Buffy is finally backed into the wall. In that one moment, she gathers all the strength and determination to kill the person she loves with all her young heart. The FE must have let out a loud resounding "Oh shit!" Looking around for anything, everything, he sees a young witch, with powerful potential, calling upon black magiks to send out a curse, opening herself to the FE.

GILES: Willow, performing this kind of ritual, channeling such potent majicks through yourself -- it will open a door you may not be able to close.

Leaping into her, the FE completes the curse. Angelus gets his soul back, and Buffy gets her Angel back. Now, the typical human/mortal would have said "I'll just die with him beside me. The world will go with us, but I did say I'd love him until the end of the world." Not Buffy. Buffy still has the strength she built when she realized it was just her. She once again defied the expected and did the unexpected. She sent Angel, heart, body, mind and soul to Hell. No one expected her to do that. When she's around the train of destiny gets knocked off it's tracks.

Buffy is no longer The Slayer. She hadn't been for a year. The line is now further away from her. No, Buffy is not The Slayer. When she killed Angel, she became something else. She became the Keeper of the Hellmouth. The Guardian of the Gate. She went on to stop the Mayor's Ascenscion, and the Apocalypse in "Doomed." She also proved that she can stop creatures of Earthly design (Adam) and has again and again defied the odds and thwarted prophecy. So she, of all the people on the planet, was deemed the most capable of guarding the most powerful item on this plane. The Key. Buffy protects the Key. In a moment of clarity, she realizes what she is: the Gatekeeper, and if she decided, she can close all the gates herself. Grasping the energy housed in Dawn, she closed the Glory-gate and earned her spot in Heaven.
Would have been a nice end for Buffy. She once again thwarted the FE intent on destruction and left in the playing field a very powerful artifact that was only realizing what role she can play. I believe that Dawn started the process of unlocking Amanda's potential. She GAVE Amanda the power that might be Amanda's by destiny, but if Buffy shown us anything, destiny is not the end all be all.

The FE once again went through his sleeper agent, The powerful Wicca known as Willow. Raise Buffy, this time in the Form of the CHAMPION of the people, and start to build more of the FE's power. After all, there has to be a balance between the Powers of the Firsts (First Evil, First Slayer), that's what the Powers that Be try to maintain. Good cannot be more powerful than Evil or vice versa. This has to be a balanced playing field. The PTB give him a powerful weapon. Willow herself starts to show signs of being a great agent for the FE. She's wreckless with power, obviously chaotic when it comes to her spells, she's been approached to be a vengence demon, her Wish-world counterpart was as evil as vampires come, both Sweet and Rack comment about her power

SWEET: Hmm, I smell power.

RACK: Willow. Slayer's pal. She's the new power, man - anybody with intuition can feel it. She's going to blow this town away - starting with you.

So in short, Willow Rosenberg has the Potential to be the bad no one saw coming. But she's been fighting at Buffy's side for too long, and Tara is this blindingly good influence on her. Even to the point of getting Willow to give up magik completely. Tara is supportive, gives Willow the strength to resist all the temptation that the FE throws her way. Take Tara out of the picture in a violent sort of way, you get one angry and powerful wicca

ANYA: Warren shot Buffy. Warren shot Tara. Buffy's alive. Tara's dead. Willow found out and being the most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere, she went for the payback. With interest.

The most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere, that the FE has taken over before. Give her all the black knowledge that the Hellmouth has and you're sure to find someone who will end the earth. When Giles tried to save Willow by connecting her to the spirit of the Earth, the FE showed her all the people in pain, and prevailed on her compassion, whispering to her the only way to stop the pain is to stop it all. But in the end, Xander, who is Buffy's animus, is able to bring her back. At the same moment, all three of the main Scoobies see that no matter what, there is still hope. Giles, their mentor, watches with quiet pride.

But meanwhile, on the otherside of the world, something else was happening: Spike EARNED his soul back, of his own free will. Oh happy joys for the FE. You go back to Whistler, he talks about how he's one of the people that work for a balance. He's an agent of the PTB's who are all about balance. In order to counter-balance the act of a vampire willingly wanting to be re-souled, all for the sake of love, the PTB had to give the FE something. The Slayer had taken away from the FE a line of vampires that were among his favorites. Straight down the line, The Master, Darla, Angelus, Druscilla and Spike. She killed the Master, killed Darla, made Angel determined to fight for balance, took away Dru's saner half, The Slayer Killer, Spike, and made him want to get a soul. It seems only fair that if the Slayer can strike at the FE's more powerful bloodline and undermine it, the FE can now have the power to take out the Slayer line. It didn't seem to do any of the Potential Slayer slayings until after Spike had his soul.



What do you think?
[> Fantastic idea re Becoming -- KdS, 09:38:30 01/22/03 Wed

Probably the best explanation I've ever seen for what or who possessed Will in B2.
Inconsistent, Disappointing Writing (Spoilers thru Potential) -- Kira, 09:53:11 01/22/03 Wed

To elaborate on some of the postings further below regarding the Slayer's lineage...

I am completely disappointed in how the characters are being altered to suit the short-term purposes of the writers this season with respect to their beliefs about the slayer line.

Whether or not we believe that the line now goes through Buffy or Faith (and I do believe it goes through Faith), their behavior makes no sense.

It has been suggested on this board that independently of what Joss has stated in interviews, that the characters don't know that the line goes through Faith. This argument is faulty.
First of all, in season 3, in Faith, Hope, and Trick, Cordelia says in front of Buffy and the whole gang:
Cordelia: "I get it... the two Slayer thing. There was one, and then Buffy died for, like, two minutes, so then Kendra was called, and then when she died, Faith was called."
Faith also mentions having been a slayer over the summer between seasons 2 & 3, so that fits into the timeline of Kendra's death (at the end of season 2). I'm not sure when Buffy died the second time (I started watching the show after that), so I'm not sure if Buffy's second death could even be attributed to the existence of Faith.

Regardless of the actual truth of how the lineage works, there are two possibilities regarding the characters' beliefs:
1. They believe the line goes through Faith. This should be the case, but that does not explain their statements in last night's episode, or their lack of mention of Faith throughout this season. The explanation of Buffy's attitude towards being a Slayer, and how she might just choose to disregard the issue of Faith, does not explain why somebody else, like Willow, hasn't mentioned the topic.
2. They believe the line still goes through Buffy. Supposing we believe that Faith is simply forgotten or ignored, their actions make even less sense. Because if they do believe this, they should be expecting another active slayer to have appeared after Buffy's death in "The Gift." With all the searching for potential slayers going on, they should be searching for the other active slayer. This possibility is not even mentioned, and this makes for an even bigger plothole, in my opinion.

I don't believe that this is a nitpicky or minor issue, since the entire plot of season 7 has been concerned with the potential slayers and discussions regarding the Slayer's line. This is a central topic, for which there is no excuse that the characters haven't had an intelligent discussion about the questions at hand. We can either assume that all of the characters have no memories and are complete idiots, or we can assume that the writers are playing us, the audience, with complete disregard for the integrity of the story.
I for one, am disillusioned.
[> Re: Inconsistent ...(Spoilers thru Potential)_ARE YOU ASKING FOR FAITH TO COME BACK -- WALKING TURTLE, 10:08:02 01/22/03 Wed

Clearly Faith must come back to Sunnydale. How? She's in jail - The Watchers Council is gone - so Giles can't bring her back. Can Angel? Can Buffy? Will she just be released from jail? I think the way she comes back will be an important clue to how the season will end.
[> [> I imagine she could break out of jail whenever she felt like it. -- Vegeta, 11:27:47 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> or...(total spec, spoilery only if i'm right) -- anom, 23:58:48 01/22/03 Wed

...she is in LA...maybe Lilah could do some evil lawyering on the side of good (or at least on the side of Wesley) & get her out of jail.
[> Re: Inconsistent, Disappointing Writing (Spoilers thru Potential) -- Michael, 10:49:26 01/22/03 Wed

I have another question about the plot. If the FE is so high and mighty (or beneath us) and so darned smart, why doesn't she seemed concerned about Faith? If Faith is the true line, and I think she is at this point, what's the FE's reason for hanging out in Sunnydale trying to kill Buffy? Unless...Buffy is part of something way bigger that scares the bejabbers out of the FE or threatens it in some way.
If Buffy is outside the loop now, it makes her a rogue element, a wild card.
I do agree, everyone needs to remember Faith and the death of Buffy doesn't necessarily mean it's Slayer time for one of the potentials.
[> [> Re: Inconsistent, Disappointing Writing (Spoilers thru Potential) -- SingedCat, 15:12:04 01/22/03 Wed

I'll have to agree here, though my steadfast policy is normally to trust ME with every ounce of plot. But the gang has shown before that they already know *why* no new Slayer was called when Buffy died (It was mentioned early in Season 6), and thus, that they know Buffy's death will not make a new Slayer now either. Thus, there are a few possible reasons Buffy said what she said "If I die, one of you could be the next Slayer."

One, she doesn't want to get into the unnecessary details about Faith and her sharing the Slayer lineage. It can only lead to unnecessary discussion, and possible questioning of her authority. IAC, Faith is out of the picture, in terms of being beyond their aid or able to help them. (Though I do think they should call and warn her-- maybe Giles did if he's not dead...)

Two: The writer is new and made a mistake that they didn't catch. Though I can't imagine at least someone in the cast catching it....

Three: there is something going on that we don't know about.

Which is always a possibility for ME, and comes up more often than actual plot mistakes. I guess my faith is still in ME. For now.
[> It's being written this way for a reason, IMHO. -- yez, 11:26:00 01/22/03 Wed

I think the fact that the line is with Faith now isn't being ignored and won't be written away -- I think it's probably going to be important to the story and will resurface at a crucial point.

IMHO, the Scoobies do understand that the line isn't with Buffy, and at some point, even one of the SITs indicates at least being vaguely aware of the existence of another slayer ("Isn't there another slayer?" or similar); and what with all the succession talk, they're bound to put two-and-two together at some point. The fact that Buffy actually says things to the SITs that implies that the line is with Buffy is worrisome, but I think it's supposed to be worrisome. For example, maybe Buffy is becoming corrupted by the power of being the acting slayer. On the other hand, it could just be that she's keeping it simple for her students right now, and that she sees using the "if I die it could be YOU" tactic as helping her students get serious with their studies.

But I would be shocked if the "fact" of lineage actually gets changed, though I imagine if they can't every get Eliza Dushku back, it would be very tempting.

yez
[> There was one mention (Spoilers thru now) -- PepTech, 12:06:21 01/22/03 Wed

They haven't ignored Faith completely - Bring on the Night:

-------------
BUFFY
The First - that's what it wants.

GILES
Yes. To erase all the Slayers-in-
training and their Watchers, along
with their methods...

BUFFY
And then Faith. Then me. And with
all the potentials gone, and no way
of making another...
(then)
It's the end. There's no more
Slayer. Ever.

-----------
The whole "out of order" thing comes in here - "Faith. Then me." Maybe Buffy is the Uber_Slayer.

Agreed, though, on the inconsistent writing. Canon ("The Gift"/"Bargaining") is pretty clear that Buffy's death won't affect the line, but they keep writing it that way.
[> [> Re: Second Mention (Spoilers thru now) -- amber, 12:26:25 01/22/03 Wed

Can't remember which episode, but in one of the ones with the potentials the group of them is talking, and they do mention there is allegedly another slayer out there (aka, Faith)

I think for now Buffy is focussing on the strength and power of being a slayer because that is what was needed to beat the UberVamp and probably whatever comes next. She probably leaves the concept of Faith out of her teachings because she doesn't want to get into the whole issue of slayers being corrupted or used for evil. Possibly because she just wants these girls to feel powerful and confident.

I think back when Cordy was talking about there being 2 slayers in "Faith, Hope and Trick" (see above post for actual quote) her and the rest of the Scoobies began to assume that the slayer line went through both Buffy and Faith now, it had effectively been slit in two. (Anyone who reads Fray (Joss's comic book slayer) has also seen another way the power can be split in two.) So with the slayer line split in two a new slayer would be called if either Buffy or Faith died. At least that's what I had always assumed until Joss told us differently.

In "the Gift" the Scoobies never comment on whether or not a new slayer will be called, though this is about the time Joss began stating that the line runs through Faith. For all we know, the Scoobies assumed a new slayer was called when Buffy died, but they never bothered to look for her, probably due to their extreme grief over losing Buffy and because they were busy fighting the demons and vamps of Sunnydale.

Willow may have assumed that the new slayer would lose her powers when Buffy returned from the dead, or may have written it off as part of the fact that Buffy died what they called an "unnatural death", unlike Kendra who had her neck snapped. (Not a nice way to go, but it probably falls into the natural death category like Tara being shot, rather than the unnatural death like jumping into a portal. Since Buffy's death was unnatural, it may have been assumed by the Scoobies that that would allow her to maintain her powers.

I always thought it would have been interesting is Willow's resurrection of Buffy had brought her back as just plain ordinary human. Similar to Darla's resurrection on Angel. But alas, that was not the story Joss wanted to tell :)
[> [> [> Back as ordinary human? -- yez, 12:38:08 01/22/03 Wed

This never ocurred to me as ever being a possibility. Wouldn't it be interesting if it turns out that this is in fact what happened and Buffy's super-power now was a placebo effect -- she believes that she has it, so she does? And in the end, it's a "normal" human that has been saving the day this whole time instead of a Chosen One? Humans have had the "potential" all along, just lacked the "Faith" to realize it?

Of course, this made me think "But then why would Spike be able to hurt her..." And wouldn't it be interesting if the only reason he could was become he struck out of love (in a twisted sense), not malice, and so the chip didn't count it?

yez
[> [> [> [> Another possibility... -- Briar Rose, 16:59:53 01/22/03 Wed

Not in any episode has ME addressed if a Slayer can be STRIPPED of her powers for misusing them.

In my mind - the very fact that Faith was never able to physically defeat Buffy again in any fight they had (other than by running away) after she aligned herself with the Mayor and his cronies could point to the fact that Faith is not indeed a true "Slayer" anymore and Buffy took the power back from Faith.

ME might have alluded to this possibility in "Potential" when they gave Buffy the line of, "You have the physical ability, even though you don't have the actual Slayer powers yet - and that's all you need."

Faith was an athletic type as was Buffy before the Slayer Power passed to them. There seems to be at least some athletic ability in each of the ParaSlayers as well.

So what IS the actual "Slayer Power?" As they have said all along; increased stamina, the ability to "feel" evil and increased strength and agility and healing speed.

So when you look at the last time we saw Faith (on Angel) Faith wasn't really "Fully Slayer Powered" by any means. She almost broke her neck jumping out a window and didn't seem to be healing very quickly at all. However, Buffy was (and is) still able to leap tall buildings in a single bound and heal in hours what should take days.

My question is not "Is Buffy still the Slayer?" but "Was Faith ever the 'true' Slayer? Or even Kendra?"
[> [> [> [> [> Interesting. -- yez, 20:43:16 01/22/03 Wed

I have yet to see those Faith eps on Angel, though, so can't speak to that. Interesting theory, though.
'Potential': The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (Who WILL Defeat Voynak!), 11:36:41 01/22/03 Wed

Six attempts at posting this so far. Voynak must die.

Mood: bored stiff. My Insignificant Alter-Ego's little favorite, Dawnie, gets the spotlight, which makes her happy as a baby Chornoth with a Saint Bernard to teethe on. Me? Couldn't possibly care less. But tradition is tradition, and if I take a week off, some warped no-talent will no doubt post his own bizarre, half-baked thoughts masquerading as a Super-Evil Review, leading to another blood feud, which, let's face it, could be fun, but would also be unnecessarily time-consuming, so I suppose I'll review.

Fashion Statements
The Good
Dawn, start to finish. I couldn't tell if that first shirt was deep burgundy or a really nice shade of brown, but whatever it was, it was terrific on her. Plus, of course, the lovely little pendant. And that last shirt, the red one? Combine the cut, the color, and the hair, and little Dawnie's a knockout. I was swooning for that shirt.

Buffy wore black shirts start to finish in this episode. Only one really stood out--the open-collared one with the fluttery sleeves. Very flattering.

Believe it or not, I actually approved of Willow's glitzy-collared shirt. I could use one of those myself. A daring fashion step, but it paid off, in this case.

Spike looks good in clothes. Who knew?

The Bad
None of the potentials dresses particularly well, but Molly and Vi positively blind me with the badness. Somebody needs to behead Vi just to get rid of that stupid cap.

Anya's satiny whatever. Terrible color on her. Unflattering cut. Could hardly have been worse.

Xander's hair needed serious help.

The Iffy
We'll reserve judgment on Amanda for another week. However, a stringbean like that needs to dress to de-emphasize the fact that she has no figure.

Plot in a Nutshell
Buffy and Spike put the potential Slayers through their paces. Willow tries to find a new potential, which leads to everyone mistakenly thinking Dawn's the one, which leads to mortal danger for Dawn, which leads to the discovery that Dawn's not the one, which leads to Dawn angst, which leads to a sappy Xander speech.

Demonic Quibbles and Comments
Not the show, per se, but I must ask: how can you Americans allow a 250-year-old Dhagrash demon like Cal Worthington to shill used cars over the airwaves? I mean, seriously? Hasn't anyone noticed that he hasn't aged for the past couple of decades? Or picked up on the fact that someone that annoying must have connections to the demonic underworld?

More to the point, the only demonic species that regularly drinks yak urine is the Chunrogu Clan of central Mongolia, and there can't be enough of them in Southern California to make it profitable for Willy's Bar to stock it.

And, while I'm at it, the reason Willow's spell didn't work so well is that she used a hard-boiled egg. You need a raw one, doofus!

Highlights
Dawn's wardrobe. Finally, someone's getting it right.

Amanda's suggestion to sic the vampire on the marching band. That is funny. Reminds me of the time I set a slime demon loose at a high school pep rally. Ah, good times!

Buffy and Spike locking the potentials in the crypt. More fun!

Clem! 'Bout time you showed up again, big guy!

Lowlights
The potentials. All of them. Hate them, one and all.

Xander being all mature and sensible. Where's the fun in that?

No Giles. *pout*

No Wood. *double pout*

All the idiot potentials surviving. Couldn't that vampire have gotten even one? Loser.

Buffy's pompous speeches. Kept expecting some potential to whack her over the head. That would've been worth watching.

No killing of Andrew, yet again. Why?

Xander's sickly-sweet little speech. It had my Sappy Alter-Ego in tears, of course, which may have something to do with the fact that she's gotten us sick, and I think she may be dying, which would be inconvenient for me,

HonorH's note: I've got a slight chest cold. My Super-Obnoxious Alter-Ego, as she is wont to do, exaggerates.

but the whole thing had me gagging. Just when the Twerp was beginning to look interesting, they parallel her with Xander. That'll set her back a stage or three.

Burning Questions
Where is Chloe, the Latina potential? Was the actress so bad the producers decided to ditch her before she made things even worse?

So, Giles disappears just as the First goes "into remission." Interesting, no?

Does Buffy not know she's out of the Slayer line? If not, why does she think her death in "The Gift" didn't activate a new one?

So how soon is it before one of those stupid teens asks Buffy point-blank about her shtupping of Spike? Geez, a Bringer could see the UST!

Can I have Andrew for my next weenie roast, and does anybody have a basting sauce that would go well with him?

The Immoral of the Story
Never think you're special, if you're human. You aren't.

Overall Rating
0 minus blue on the Non Sequitur Scale. Like I said, I was bored.
[> The missing line from Potential -- ponygoyle, 11:47:24 01/22/03 Wed

Buffy: Spike what were your instincts telling you?
Spike: To hunt. To kill. To make fun of Vi's dorky hat.


All hail Honorificus!
[> Re: 'Potential': The Super-Evil Review -- Shiraz, 11:51:33 01/22/03 Wed

"Can I have Andrew for my next weenie roast, and does anybody have a basting sauce that would go well with him?"

As a matter of fact, yes. The Jamacian's have named a sauce in his honor.

-Shiraz
[> Field Marshall von Buffy uber alles -- The Unclean (thanks to 3strikes on BC&S for 'FMvB' & 'ZITs'), 11:58:42 01/22/03 Wed

"Buffy's pompous speeches. Kept expecting some potential to whack her over the head. That would've been worth watching."

Honorificus, o omniscient and impeccably coiffed one, surely you realize that the Joss creature is setting up the Slayer for a spectacular fall. Only supervillains and soon-to-be-obliterated Watchers Council chairmen talk the way Buffy is talking these days, and Joss' demonic talent for punishment will no doubt come into play soon.

As for the ZITs (zeroes in training), I agree completely--we desperately need another Turok-Han or three to thin the herd. Unfortunately, I see the annoying gaggle of adolescents hanging around until the final battle, where they will be slaughtered or fully "slayer-ized" en masse, thus depriving us of the joy of watching them die, one by one...

And Xander? This newfound maturity is beyond annoying--it's dangerous. He's not on the First Evil's radar? Time for the FE to upgrade its equipment. I would've killed him two minutes into "Lessons"...
[> Answers to burning questions -- Saguaro Stalker, 13:59:23 01/22/03 Wed

I think Chloe was either too ashamed of her name to show her face or as someone has already mentioned (darn 'em), it was her turn in the restroom.

Chloe disappeared too. Maybe she's Giles in disguise. No wait that doesn't sound right... More likely Giles needed to use the restroom for what god intended and with all those girls around had to leave the country.

Can't say about the nasty-sex-with-Spike questions. Kenndy would probably be more interested in nasty-sex-with-Willow questions anyhow. But, speaking of The Unclean's ZITs, that must be the clearest faced group 15-year-old girls in the history of the world. Is that how they know who a potential slayer is?

Barbeque with Andrew? Dearie, no amount of ketchup is going to cover up the taste of a weenie that powerful. Serve hotdogs instead, and spare yourself all that gas before you cook him and again after you eat him.
[> SO right on the hat! -- luna, 15:07:17 01/22/03 Wed

[> Re: 'Potential': The Super-Evil Review -- Sophomorica, chewing on a leg-bone, 15:44:50 01/22/03 Wed

Honorie, my dear, I'm afraid I agree with you this week. I'm bored, too. So bored that even Sophie's statistics/regression books are beginning to look interesting.
are you up to the challenge? -- tim, 12:07:06 01/22/03 Wed

The subject heading sounds much more exciting than the message actually is, but it's the day after a new ep, and I had to get your attention somehow. :o)

Here's the sitch: I got the S1 DVDs for Christmas and downloaded the screen saver they included but it was, well, kind of lame. "Self," I thought, "You know nothing about computers. You should try to create your own screen saver!" Fortunately, Windows XP was there (XP stands for Xtra Pre-school, which is the level of sophistication they assume), so I do have a way to turn a series of images into a very exciting Buffy screen saver.

What I want to do is combine still shots of the characters (easy enough to find on the web) with quotations from the show that embody each of the regular characters from throughout both shows, as well as the more important recurring ones (e.g., Joyce and Lorne). I figure that will make for a screen saver much more telling of the show's charms than a bunch of pictures from the prom.

So this is basically a plea for help. I'm looking for quotes from the shows that embody our beloved characters, as many quotes for as many different characters as people are willing to offer. Ideally, they'll be relatively short, and yet still hold their meaning when taken completely out of context. Something like Cordelia's "I think it, I say it. It's my way." They could be comments made in the first, second, or third person, as long as they describe the essence of each character. (For Willow, I've been thinking of using Xander's line from Help: "Power and control. It's a trade off.") They can be witty, tragic, profound, whatever. Think back to those moments when you thought, "That's exactly what (insert charater name here) is all about." Or use it as an excuse to peruse Psyche while avoiding your real job. (God knows I am.)

Thanks in advance for the help with this. (Incidentally, I'd be happy to post a list of the quotes I picked once the project is complete, if anyone is interested.) I can't think of a group of people better equipped to handle a request like this one. Happy (memory) hunting, and again, thank you!

--th
[> tim, I'm not very good at this sort of thing, but here goes... -- Ixchel, 17:01:45 01/22/03 Wed

Cordelia - "Tact is just not saying true stuff." BtVS S2 KBD
A line that I just always liked. And shows how honesty is important to her (in a way).

Spike - "I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it." BtVS S3 LW
Explains a great deal about Spike's character and also funny.

These are just off the top of my head and from memory.

Good luck with your project, maybe you can let us see it when you're done?

Ixchel
[> Re: are you up to the challenge? -- gds, 19:48:21 01/22/03 Wed

Since favorite quote is part of the profile, as a first step you can try MEET THE POSTERS
http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/about2.shtml

Of course many of the quotes here will be of older episodes, but they will still be good. I know the one I listed still cracks me up.
[> Re: are you up to the challenge? -- ZachsMind, 21:57:44 01/22/03 Wed

My User Page at Whedonesque includes a host of my favorite quotes from throughout the Buffy series. Here's a couple samples.

PICTURE: "quote."

BUFFY: "It's about power."
"Ooh! Shiny!"
"Peachy with a side of keen, that would be me."
"She's a sweet girl Spike, but hey. Issues."
"Buffy, you have a sacred birthright to protect mankind. Don't stick out your elbow."
"She saved my life a bunch of times! Plus, she's hot."

SPIKE & BUFFY: "I'll come back to you."
"Every night I save you."

SPIKE: "Spike had a little trip to the vet and now he doesn't chase the other puppies anymore."

GILES: "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!"
"Ooo... Copper's got a gun!"
"Please stop speaking Latin in front of the books."
"Oh, I'm beginning to understand this now. It's all about the journey, isn't it?"
"No, you listen to me. I'm your Watcher, so you do what I tell you. Now, sod off!"

WILLOW: "Everything's connected."

DARK WILLOW: "You called me a rank arrogant amateur. Well buckle up Rupert, cuz I've turned pro."

XANDER: "Glad I can help."
"You know what? It was wrong to meddle with the forces of darkness. I see that now. I think we've all grown."
"Run and hide? That's your brilliant plan?"
"I can't believe I had sex."
"I like the quiet."

DAWN: "Lesson one: it's always real."

OZ: "I know. It's me. I'm goin' through some... changes!"
"Would it help if I panic?"
"I gotta bail."

WOOD: "The last two principals were eaten."
"Gotta start deadening young minds."

FAITH: "I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there's a new slayer in town."

ANYA: "Sensible! You think it's sensible for me to go down into that pit of cotton-top hell, and let them hippity-hop all over my vulnerable flesh?"
"You are attractive and have many good qualities."

FAITH or TARA: "Five-by-five? Five what by five what?"

WILLOW AND TARA: "So Willow's not driving stick anymore."

HALFREK: "This is a bad time to be a good guy."

RILEY AND BUFFY: "If I kiss you it'll make the sun go down."

SLAYERS IN TRAINING: "Stay away from hyena people, or any loser-type athletes, you know, or if you see anyone that's invisible."

JONATHAN: "Action figures? Fully deployed."

WARREN: "Dude. Don't be a geek."

ANDREW or JONATHAN: "I peed in the pool."

CLEM: "Still say it's weird without the kittens."

ANY RUN OF THE MILL BADDIE: "C'mon, what're you after? Fear? Revenge? Tasty brains?"

AMY: "How long was I in the cage?"
[> [> Re: are you up to the challenge? -- Helen, 07:59:43 01/23/03 Thu

Buffy (on stopping her date finding out her secret identity)
"Okay then, I won't wear my badge which says "I'm a Slayer, ask me how""

Giles
"Welcome to the nancy tribe"

Anya on dying
"I can just hear you all now. "I dislike that Anya. She is newly human and stangely literal""

"Its stupid. Its mortal and stupid."

Willow on ethics
"I'm just taking stuff without paying. In what twisted dictionary is that stealing?"

Cordelia
"Keep your mum aged mitts off my boyfriend! Former!!"

Faith and Wesley make friends
"New Watcher?"
others nod
"Screw that."

Buffy and Tara on death
"Was it sudden, your mum?"
"Yes, no... It's always sudden."

Xander
"I defined something? Accurately? Guess I'm done with the book learning."
"We're gonna need a bigger boat."
The Slayer Lineage - Buffy/Faith - Spoilers -- Angelina - Not on a Rant - Too much, 12:08:28 01/22/03 Wed

#1 - in the very beginning of Season 7, I don't remember which episode, Buffy mentions Faith by name and with regard to the slayer line. Go back to your tapes and figure it out. I will be doing that tonight.

# 2 - OK, there has been major discussion about how Buffy is this arrogant egomaniac actually having the audacity of calling herself "The Slayer", while in fact Faith is the "real" slayer. OH PAAALEEASE. Faith Bad. Buffy Good. Faith in Prison. Buffy Not in Prison. Buffy could have and may be should have, told everyone to *F* off and go save themselves, since the "real" Slayer got herself locked up. But she did not and now this girl cannot catch a break, cannot win for losing. What is it that you people want from her? She is the Good Guy remember! If not for Buffy, where would the world be? Buffy has sacrificed herself one too many times I think, and what does she get for it, lip, she gets lip. Now she is doing the best she can to train and prepare the new "order" of potentials so to speak (and GOD knows what a drag that must be) and everyone is giving the girl grief. Hey, give the writers grief will ya....they are the ones screwing around with a good thing. Poor Buff is just doing what she always does - Trying to save the World!

#3. If Buffy is not the actual Slayer - then she must be something else. Some other powerful being that she isn't even aware of yet. I am rehashing one of my old posts, but what the heck. She could be up there in the "Powers that Be" category for all we know (Remember Joyce, the First Good, telling her to "wake up"). And even if she isn't, she still deserves her propers. She did "Save the World...A Lot". This being Buffy's last season, let's all just give her the benefit of the doubt and see where SHE leads us. I only hope Joss will make sure She ends up in a good place. Am I the only one would like to see Buffy go out Happy? I hope not.
[> I second that. -- amber, 12:32:48 01/22/03 Wed

Great post! Thanks Angelina.

The writers at ME have always done a good job of tying up all the lose ends by the end of a season, at least the really outstanding ones. If they're going through season 7 with the thought that this is the last season, then I trust them to tie everything together in the end.

Personally I want to leave my nitpicking and technicalities until I've seen the entire season.

Buffy's saved the world a lot. Let's just wait and see what she does next and until it's over, trust the writers and enjoy the show.
[> I third that motion -- dochawk, 12:56:08 01/22/03 Wed

How often have we been misled by midseason Buffy or Angel? I am still nto convinced that the writers are making any errors at all, and like the next poster, we should wait until Buffy ends and look back. They always know what they are doing.
[> Power avoidance of that which I must write - Spoilers for the lastest Buffaloneousness -- fresne, 19:14:16 01/22/03 Wed

Okay, I don't get to go home until I write this documentation, but whatever.

Promise struck me a little differently it seems than the general flow. Thus to not be entirely disagreeable, here I shall post.

There seems to be some concern that power has gone to Buffy's head. That she is obsessed with being the Slayer. That the final end should be Buffy's divorce from her Slayerdom.

That's never my hope. It's so bittersweet sad in Cocteau's "La belle et la bete" when the beast is transformed from this wonderful magical creature into the rather effeminate hunter. I rather like Robin McKinley's second take on how the story should end. I don't want the fay to sail away to the West, even if they're staying means the world's a little more dangerous strange.

People think that Buffy is high functioning schizophrenic. And well, she is because she's oil and water and some other non-mixy thing. Balancing. Juggling. Negotiating. Balancing the bits of her lives. I don't want divorce, I want integration. I want her to figure out how not to feel bad about feeling better and not at the expense of feeling special. Rather than a world where we are stripped down, I want a world where everyone contains worlds.

Where Dawn is extraordinary.

Where Xander repairs the world one window at a time.

That the Slayer is the Councilor is the Girl is the Woman is the Fireman, all in one small shape. Just skin and bones and drive. That Dawn is the Key is the Girl is the Woman is the Bookworm is the whole world and life ahead of her.

Promise emphasized for me just how difficult it is to see the hardships over the fence in the other garden.

Poor Dawnie. Wanting the light that seems to so easy shine on her sister. Knowing that that light comes, has come, with a short expiration date. With grinding work at low paying jobs. Emotional suffering. Physical hardship. Oh, Dawnie, I don't want you to be a Slayer. Then she would forever chase her sister's legend. Could never ever thwart enough apocalypses. Never find her own costume. Always wearing her big sister's uniform. Always fearing that any success is leant by a hand me down jacket.

What is it that Buffy says to the To Be's (funny that's the subject of my documentation), that they will die, because they are human and all mortal things die. Poor Dawn sitting on the outskirts, wanting to be a part of things, when she already is. The parallels to the Zeppo are well made and yet I want to go further.

That everyone is chosen, because we all live and we all will all die and in between we choose. It's all about choice. Xander's to support. Anya's to say, "No, that's not the being I want to be." Spike's to seek a soul. Willow's to face the magic inside. Buffy's to tie herself to this place, this task when she could say no. It's not my job anymore. To take on an every wavering mass of whiny girls, how grating to know that they were once her, and somehow give them the skills that they need to not die. To fan enough inner fire to choose not to be the one who dies today. Get them ready to take care of themselves, because Buffy might not be there. Sometime before May, because that's the season of the Apocalypse.

It's not that Dawn would be in the way, but Buffy has a hard task. Forge a unit without the benefit of Preying Mantis ladies and Demon androids and invisible girls. Get everyone pointed in the same direction. Trying to give these naifs the grammar of the world, even when Buffy knows it's all if ands and buts.

This is season one. These potentials, these ladies in waiting, are Buffy. Movie Buffy. The Something Something Queen Cheerleader Buffy.

These uncertain frightened girls don't have the benefit of Xander's seven years field time. Of Dawn's field time. Killed a vampire on her first kiss. These girls only know that the Big Bad, the biggest bad older than old is coming. Hungers for them. Has time enough to plan and plot. Has other unknown tricks. Can assume any shape and slip among them. Has fed their fears of interrupted youth with poisoned edges.

Buffy died at 16. That's the slivery point and I don't think she forgets it. That's crucial, but to tell these girls before they've even slain their first vampire. She say's they're special, but that they need to be taught and guided and led says that they are children.

It's all in the perspective. From where I sit, Buffy pays Dawn a compliment. Dawn doesn't need handholding or forging. And I ponder just how hard it is see what others need, because you tend to want to give them what you need. Buffy is self centered. Most people are. Except when we're not.

Xander is a hero. And yet in this wonderful symbiotic way, Buffy is Xander's hero. His speech in the Freshman. What would Buffy do. You need the hands and you need the heart and mind and spirit to make a body good.

Am I worried that Buffy's power mad? Not really. Well, okay I'm paranoid. ME is evil and Feb sweeps are around the evilicious painful growing changing corner. Plenty of room for Spike to become a Goth Mime (no one deserves mime) and Andrew to be Gollum and Anya to die her hair orange and Willow to go dark and then white and then a kind of squizzly saffron and Xander to decide dammit, I don't care if I'm a contractor, I like Trading Spaces. Heck, time enough to discuss gray and the lie to me and ambiguity and divided slayer lines and all the things that can't be explained when the dust settles and the world's still there.

Or not. Perhaps, the world will just go on without us.
[> [> Just beautiful, fresne. I couldn't agree more. -- Ixchel, 19:26:02 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> Your writing is so elegant -- Tchaikovsky, 03:50:51 01/23/03 Thu

May I just ask, through my ignorance, how to pronounce your posting name?

Is it Frain as in DuFresne in 'The Shawshank Redemption'?
Or instead 'Fres-ney' as in Stepney? If you follow.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. What I really need is your prose poems.

TCH
[> [> [> Thanks all. -- fresne, 08:41:21 01/23/03 Thu

It's an odd thing when you take a break from writing to write. But somehow a stream of conciousness "To Be" Architecture and "As Is" Gap Analysis might not work, so it's best that it work it's way out of my system.

How I say fresne depends on my mood.

Generally I go Californian, cause you know 4th Generation, and pronounce it
"That would be instead 'Fres-ney' as in Stepney?"

When I'm that other mood I pronounce it a la College French bad accent. Alas, no French dictionary at hand to grammarize my explication, or at least one with the word for ash tree, so I pronounce it "fren" like wren only with an f and you know a bad french accent.
[> [> Re: Oh, Fresne, that was just gorgeous. Thanks. -- Angelina, 07:09:37 01/23/03 Thu

[> [> Amen! -- ponygirl, 07:17:03 01/23/03 Thu

Buffy the Shark Jumper -- ZachsMind, 12:48:33 01/22/03 Wed

I rambled about this over at Whedonesque and I'm not sure I got my point across. I'll write out my Thesis Statement first this time then reinforce it with the facts in a vague attempt at an orderly fashion.

Thesis Statement: Buffy the Vampire Slayer either proves the "Jump The Shark Rule" wrong, or it is immune to the effects of Shark Jumping because it jumped the shark when it was first conceived, continues to regularly jump the shark, and has embraced the very concept of jumping the shark as a part of its trademark charm.

For the uninitiated, Jumping the Shark means for most television shows the Kiss of Death, when the program irrevocably fails its audience by being untrue to itself in some way, or doing something that stereotypically bugs many people in the audience. It's been the bane of existence for 99.9% of all television shows for decades. I argue that BtVS is immune. At jumptheshark.com they list a number of examples of classic Shark Jumping techniques. Buffy has faced a majority of them as I illustrate below. Whether there is a season or a series past season seven is unclear at this point, but critics and fans alike are generally in agreement: it's behaving rather strangely, not unlike the orbit trajectory of Uranus, but artistically and entertainingly, Buffy is still going strong.

Same Character, Different Actor
Unaired Pilot
The role of Willow was originally played by Riff Regan in the unaired pilot. Due to this I say that from the get-go, BtVS jumped the shark. It made JtS'ing an integral part of its design via serrendipity, and therefore is immune to the effects of Shark Jumping.
This Year's Girl & Who Are You
Late in season four, Eliza Dushku & SMG traded places in a two-parter that could also have been called "Freaky Friday." Same Characters, different actresses. The predominant difference here is that there was an explanation in the context of the storyline, and it wasn't permanent. Other shows that have suffered from this faux pas just hired a different actor for the same character and never gave a decent explanation.

Birth | Death
Prophecy Girl, The Gift, and Villians
Buffy's died three times, in seasons 1, 5 and 6. There have been no literal births on Buffy. Dawn just sorta showed up so she doesn't count here. However, on the Angel tv series, Darla did give birth to Connor.

Ted McGinley
Not yet
BtVS doesn't need McGinley. It's got something better. Jonathan, played by Danny Strong. He's the patron saint of Whedonism.

Puberty
School Hard
A very young Andrew J. Ferchland was originally cast to play "The Annointed One" who was to be a child turned vampire. At the time the idea was worked into the scripts, it wasn't realized that the kid playing the part was going to grow up, and would eventually make the idea of a vampire eternally trapped in gradeschool kinda difficult to pull off. Mutant Enemy resolved this issue by killing off the character before his voice started noticeably changing or growing facial hair.

It should be noted that most actors hired to play regulars on Buffy, or featured roles as young people, normally have already hit puberty before they're hired. Whether that's deliberate or serrendipity, the changes in aging do not usually adversely affect the show. In the case of major characters, the show purposefully grows with them. Some actors who play allegedly immortal characters like vampires do show some signs of middle-age now, though. Make-up can only do so much.

Singing
Once More With Feeling and Selfless

Live!
Not yet!

I Do
Hell's Bells
Usually a wedding episode dynamically changes the chemistry of a group of people, and limits future relationship variables for story telling purposes. Mutant Enemy resolved this by having a wedding then having Xander get cold feet.

They Did It
Surprise/Innocence (Buffy & Angel), Band Candy (Giles & Joyce), The Zeppo (Xander & Faith), Grad Day Pt.1 (Willow & Oz), Harsh Light of Day (Buffy & Parker) AND (Xander & Anya), Wild At Heart (Oz & Veruca), The I In Team (Buffy & Riley), Who Are You (Riley & Faith in Buffy), New Moon Rising (Willow & Tara), Smashed (Buffy & Spike)
Woah. No wonder Anya's got a thing about rabbits.

The Movie
The motion picture was the precursor to the tv series, like MASH and other shows in this situation. Usually it's not considered Shark Jumping in this case. There is of course talk of there someday being an attempt at a movie based more off the Buffy that Whedon's developed since the movie, more true to his original idea, but that's not for years from now at least.

Moving
Not yet
Giles has moved to England but the show didn't go with him. Angel did move to L.A. from Sunnydale, but thus far the show Buffy itself has remained in Sunnydale. However, the show has been moved to a different network (WB to UPN), which is often considered a kiss of death.

Special Guest Star
too many to mention
Buffy regularly features various 'name recognition' music artists & bands, usually in the Bronze, for no other reason but to be able to use those names in the publicity of the show. There've also been a number of special guest performances by many actors over the years but most of the time the names are not big recognition. If they get lines of dialogue, usually acting talent is put before whether or not the name can help sell the show. Joel Grey (famous for Cabaret & many other performances over four decades) was given a small part in season five, but his name wasn't used to sell the Nielsens. He got the part cuz he made the role believable.

A Very Special...
many various
the ramifications of sex outside of marriage (see above), death in the family (The Body), adverse affects of bad magic as a metaphor for drug usage (Wrecked), homosexual friends (New Moon Rising), wishing ill on your fellow man (The Wish), depression and self-confidence issues (like, every other episode).. BtVS is an After School Special gone wonderfully and horrendously wrong.

New Kid In Town
Before Dawn
In season five, Whedon & Mutant Enemy embarked on a strange journey of explaining why Buffy suddenly had a sister when she hadn't had one for four years. This was actually planned from as far back as season three. The delicacy and creativity used in placing a new person into the mix of things is what makes this work. Compare to cousin Oliver in The Brady Bunch, which didn't work. It can also be argued that the New Slayers (Kendra in season two and Faith in season three) were equivalent NKITs since they were new to the Slayer Family.

Hair Care
many various
Buffy was originally a brunette in the unaired pilot. All the major female roles have had more done to their hair than is legal in some states. Anya went from brunette to blonde to brunette again. Cordelia went from long hair in season one Buffy to short hair in Angel. In season six Buffy (SMG herself) literally cut her own hair on camera. This, like some other examples of Shark Jumping, is par for the course in the BuffyVerse. BtVS wouldn't be what it is if everyone's hair follicles were untouched.

Exit...Stage Left
Wild At Heart (Oz), Grad Day (Angel, Faith, Wesley & Cordy), Into The Woods (Riley), The Body (Joyce), Bargaining, Smashed, Lessons, Potential (Giles repeatedly)...
I think perhaps the most disturbing Exit-Stage Left that has ever been orchestrated by any tv series ever is the whole Amy Rat thing. With the series in an occasional supporting capacity since the third episode of the first season, in season three Amy turned herself into a rat in order to escape being burned at the stake (Gingerbread) and it's not until three years later that Willow figures out how to turn her back (Smashed). Amy's whereabouts are presently unknown but she's overdue to make another appearance in season seven.

Graduation
Graduation Day 1 & 2
If there's a problem with the future of a series, grab it by the horns, shake it real good and blow up a bunch of stuff along the way. Whedon 101. If someone goes shirtless while you're at it, so much the better.

Color
not yet!
Have they ever done a show in black & white? How about the silent treatment? (Hush) Does that count?

Never Jumped
Buffy The Vampire Slayer

If it didn't regularly jump sharks and dare to do the unthinkable, THEN it would jump the shark. When other show producers say, "no you can't do that, that would be wrong," the writers and producers of BtVS just laugh and order another pizza.

Cheers to seven kick-ass years. May the lynching begin.
[> LOL -- yez, 13:00:08 01/22/03 Wed

For Same Character, Different Actor, does SMG replacing KS from the movie count?

yez
[> [> Sure! Why not? =) -- ZachsMind, 17:36:47 01/22/03 Wed

[> It may be that Marti N. will be asking for her pizza to go... -- AurraSing, 13:08:41 01/22/03 Wed

Much thanks to Lijdrec,who just posted this over at the Blue Board:

This article is from FANGORIA: America's Horror Magazine.


January 21: Marti Noxon talks BUFFY's future


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER writer/producer Marti Noxon says that there's no guarantee she'll be back with the UPN series after this season, even if the show, its creator Joss Whedon and star Sarah Michelle Gellar all return for an eighth go-round. "I honestly, honestly don't know," Noxon tells Fango. "I really don't. My concerns are, do I still have something to give, and when is it going to jump the shark? At what point do you say, 'These are the best people I've ever known, it's the best job I've ever had, but is it creatively the best choice?' Honestly, I haven't found the answer to that question yet. I certainly do not want to be the person who rides BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER down. I don't think I would-we'd do good work no matter what, because [the BUFFY team are] some brilliant and fantastic people. We're all very happy at our jobs, and that's such a rarity in Hollywood. So you can't discount that, either."

Neither Whedon nor Gellar have committed to an eighth season of BUFFY. But would Noxon consider a move over to the WB's spinoff series ANGEL if BUFFY picks up stakes for good this year? "Probably not," she replies. "I would say no."

Is it possible that some of ME is beginning to feel like they have done it all and perhaps it's time to say goodbye? Hmmnnnnnnn.......
[> [> This Noxon quote was quoted at Whedonesque.com too... -- ZachsMind, 17:02:02 01/22/03 Wed

I already responded to it over there. In fact I wish I could get a copy of my JtS post on her desk so she sees that Jumping The Shark is NORMAL for BtVS. Worrying about JtS is not an excuse to quit.
[> Great post! -- DickBD, 13:08:43 01/22/03 Wed

I recall that some columnist a year or more ago proclaimed that Buffy had jumped the shark, using some of the criteria you mention. Obviously, he was wrong.
[> Singing -- Dochawk, 13:27:38 01/22/03 Wed

Actually singing on Buffy started much earlier with Giles singing in Restless and Where the Wild Things Are (I think) There was a third time too but I can't remember it, though I think in season 5 since Spike was leashed.
[> [> Very good points.. -- ZachsMind, 17:40:48 01/22/03 Wed

I'll add these changes to the version that I can edit, at my website.
[> [> Giles also sang a portion of 'Free bird' in The Yoko Factor -- Rufus, 21:50:45 01/22/03 Wed

He sang "Behind Blue Eyes" in Where the Wild Things are.
[> ZM shoots and... SCORES! -- pr10n, 13:40:01 01/22/03 Wed

Super work. I read your post on Whedonesque and liked it; you have really improved it here.

Is there another show in all of tvdom with the stones (Oh, I've got the stones) to dress up an actor in a giant shark suit in the middle of a "Now, who are we?" episode? Bring on the Water Ski Ramp of Doom -- we got our own shark, right here. Unnnh!
[> BRILLIANT!! -- Rob, 14:14:37 01/22/03 Wed

[> Great post... -- shadowkat, 15:30:35 01/22/03 Wed

Congrats - the third great post I printed off today, I'm trying to conserve printer fluid - dang you people!

This was very good. And I completely agree. Jump The Shark started with Happy Days - when Fonzie literally Jumped the shark (read a bunch of cars). And all the above hits Happy Days.

You missed two.

Creating The Spin-OFF and Moving Main Characters to It

This happens when a show decides cool - we'll make another one about characters in another locale do a few cross-overs and then leave it alone. Seldom works when the original is airing.

Angel is clearly not only doing well but is kicking ass.
It took two main characters from the first show, added more and added to the universe. The Cross-Over episodes are largely pretty good, some of the best in the shows history: Pangs, Sancturary, Yoko Factor, Forever, Darla/Fool For Love. Nor were any of these episodes disruptive cross-overs that messed up the continuity of the show or seemed to be just for the purpose of a cross-over.

Beloved Character Leaves Show and Replaced with New Ones

Angel left Btvs - he was part of the hot ship, but they took him to another show. His place was taken by Spike, who many fans have embraced with as much if not more fanatacism.

Cordelia also left, and had been part of a hot ship which they cleverly broke up long before hand, and is replaced by Anya who equally was embraced by fans wholeheartedly.

(hmmm maybe you answered this in Exit Stage Left)

Experimental Episodes

When TV show decides to become experimental by either telling the story backgrounds, without dialogue, as a time-loop, or Live.

Btvs did it with HUSH - no dialogue, a silent movie, and got nominated for an Emmy. The time-loop they did briefly in Life Serial.

Also the faded colors in Selfless - which might be black and white.

Killing A Major Character, Turning them evil or good (if they'd been evil) and Resurrecting Them

This happens in lots of soaps and is frowned out. Whedon is lucky since he's in the horror genre and can do it.

Angel - the heartthrob - turned him evil and killed him then brought him back.

Willow - turned her evil and brought her back

Tara - killed her.

Buffy - killed her, main character, brought her back.

I agree Btvs has successfully avoided this pitfalls by doing them and doing them well. It makes the show both unpredictable and innovative. Rule 1 when dealing with formula? Through out the formula.
[> I wholeheartedly agree! But we need to vote or something... -- Dichotomy, 16:22:09 01/22/03 Wed

I used the link to the Jump the Shark website and found that Buffy was nowhere near reaching "never jumped" standing. It may not even be worth it though considering this includes voters who refer to the decisions of "Josh" Whedon, complain about Willow being a "you-know-what," and whine that "this is a soap opera rip-off of a rather amusing comedy movie." Yikes!
[> Re: Buffy the Shark Jumper -- cherylforba, 17:00:28 01/22/03 Wed

I think that BTVS has jumped. I think the writers are seeing the consequence by way of ratings for BOTH series.
For me the unbelievable was any romantic involvement that came between Buffy and Spike/ Angel and Cordelia.
Yes, I am a huge B/A fan. That doesn't make my opinion any less valued because I am also a long time faithful fan, who has spent a fortune in merchandise and has NOT stopped watching.
I can appreciate anyones opinion that BTVS has stayed true to it's history but If I may state my to the contrary:

1. This epic journey was about a chosen girl, a watcher, a normal faithful friend, a very smart heterosexual computer geek and one cursed souled vampire seeking redemption.

2. The relationship between Buffy and her souled vampire was portrayed as pure unconditional love. A once in 243 years event.

3. The chosen ones Watcher was portrayed as a father figure who would NOT risk his slayer to defeat the world or pass a test for the COW.

4. The faithful friend, much like now, was just that Faithful to the slayer.

5. The shy computer geek was sweet and innocent and full of love and compassion for everyone. Heterosexual.

For 5.5 years we were led down a doomed path for both Main characters in these series but at the same time made to believe that forever means forever for them and they will always choose each other. We were shown that a souled vampire would risk his undead life and even go to the extreme of giving up his humanity to save the chosen one.
On the other hand we saw the chosen one offer up her life via blood to save the souled vampire.
We were shown that the same souled vampire would walk away from the only love he had ever been given, a love so strong that perfect happiness was achieved, so that she could
have a life of sunlight.
Just one season after we were again shown Forever, we are to believe that our chosen one would take up having sex with a soulless demon that has been her enemy since the early years? That she would willingly allow him to threaten her? Belittle her feelings? Attempt to rape her?

Or that this cursed souled vampire would fall in love again with a woman who belittles him, insults him and basically uses him in the span of 1 year?

I can't help but scream the slayer would have NEVER ever dreamed of a soulless demon being a mate for her anymore than the real souled vampire would find anyone other than the slayer acceptable as a love interest.

Mix in the fact that the faithful, who has a hatred for demons and vampires suddenly finds himself in love with one, the computer geek discovers that she is gay and turns to the dark side as a powerful witch and tries to destroy the world and the watcher who loves the slayer like a daughter but still decides to leave her when he's needed the most.

Character development? Plot advancement? Maybe for some but not me.
These may be the things ME are now referring to.
I am absolutely not implying that I haven't forgiven, if you will, JW, MN or any other ME writer because like JW just stated the fans will forgive mistakes if they know the writer still has love for his creation.
[> [> Please don't take this wrong, Shippers. -- ZachsMind, 21:15:18 01/22/03 Wed

Maybe you're missing the point..

What I got from the B/A relationship, beginning middle AND end, is that nothing - NOTHING lasts forever. Yeah both Angel and Buffy used the word "forever." They were just words. Extraneous events in their lives just got in the way. And you know what? THAT HAPPENS. It's called life.

The series uses the fantastical as metaphors for life. Buffy & Angel were from the very beginning just as star-crossed and doomed as Romeo & Juliet. WORSE. Because Juliet didn't have to stick the knife in Romeo's gut. She only had to commit hari kari on herself. You ask me, if you compare Buffy & Juliet, Juliet got the better deal.

I mean maybe you and all those other Buffy/Angel shippers out there wanted to see a fairy tale where everybody lives happily ever after by the end of season two, but I personally want to see the angst and the conflict and the uncertainty. Had Whedon gone the way the Shippers wanted, the show would not have lasted half as long, because there would have been no conflict to keep it going.

The show would have deteriorated into a series of vampire or demon fights, where Buffy & Angel fight side by side, and kiss & smooch in between stabbings and explosions. Spare me. Relationships without conflict make for poor television. I cite the latter seasons of Remington Steele, Moonlighting, and the entire series of Hart To Hart as examples.

This is often why Shippers hate Plotters. Shippers want consummation. Plotters want angst. Shippers want happy endings. Plotters wanna see people blow up at each other. Shipping doesn't further the plot. Happy endings end the story, and Plotters never want to see the story end. There are no real happy endings in life, because in life things don't really end. They slow down and even come to a stop sometimes to rest, but then they keep on going. Maybe a pair of grandparents live happily ever after now and then, but do their grandchildren? The jury's still out.

And since BtVS is a fantastical metaphor for life, it mirrors it better than most other shows, albeit very askew and distorted, like in a Funhouse. Shippers love the Tunnel of Love ride at the carnivals. Plotters prefer the Funhouse. And Buffy's a funhouse, not a tunnel of love.

Well. Okay. Sometimes it's a roller coaster. And you can do both what you do in funhouses and tunnels of love on a roller coaster. =)
[> [> [> Forever. -- ZachsMind, 21:28:29 01/22/03 Wed

http://www.studiesinwords.de/95forever.html

ANGEL: Look, it's okay. I know you don't feel like it now, but you are strong, Buffy. You're gonna figure this out. And you have people to help you. You don't have to do this alone.
BUFFY: (looks at the sky) It's gonna be light soon.
ANGEL: I can stay in town as long as you want me.
BUFFY: How's forever? Does forever work for you?

She turns her head to look at Angel, sighs and sits up to look him in the face.

BUFFY: (apologetically) That's a bad idea. I'm seriously needy right now.
ANGEL: Let me worry about the neediness. I can handle it.

They look at each other, then Buffy leans in and kisses him. They kiss softly for a moment. Then it gets a little more heated and they pull away, both breathing harder.

BUFFY: (looks down) I told you. (Angel sighs) You better go.
ANGEL: (another sigh) I'm sorry.
BUFFY: (firmly) No. I'm so grateful that you came, Angel. I didn't think I was gonna be able to make it through the night.
ANGEL: (looks up at the sky) Well, we still have a few more minutes until I have to go.
BUFFY: Good.

She puts her head on his chest and leans against him. He puts his arm around her shoulders.
BUFFY: Good.

They sit quietly together.
[> [> [> what if you're a shipper and a plotter? -- Helen - now worried she has borderline personality disorder, 02:28:39 01/23/03 Thu

Who wants consummation (a la Wrecked) and then goes for the angst (rest of Season 6).

What does it say about me that watching that kind of sexy misery is my idea of fun?
[> [> [> [> It's very hard to make generalisations about Buffy fans ;) -- Rahael, 04:14:05 01/23/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> I honestly don't know... -- ZachsMind, 10:52:13 01/23/03 Thu

Sometimes a Plotter can be a Shipper, but only when it's conducive to the storyline. If Buffy didn't do anything with Riley or Spike because she was still pining for Angel, that would have frozen her plot arc in ice. Maybe Whedon originally intended to keep Angel around the entire run of the series and when it became clear for extraneous reasons that giving David his own show would be better, Whedon turned to the next most logical choice. We know he did this with Oz & Tara. Originally Whedon was gonna kill off Oz at the right time, and have Willow go ballistic. When Seth Green left the show, Whedon improvised. It meant perhaps pushing some plans back a couple seasons, but he still managed to tell the story he wanted to tell. He just had to reconfigure the variables.

A writer for television can only work with what he's given. If his lead character's main ingenue becomes unavailable, it's completely acceptaple and in this case remarkable to become more versatile and creative. Taking lemons and making lemonade. Plotters still see room for romance, but only after other more important variables are properly configured.
[> [> [> [> [> I guess I'm a plotter -- Rufus, 15:07:23 01/23/03 Thu

I'm okay with ships but they aren't my main source of enjoyment for either series.
[> [> [> Thank you, Zach, thank you! -- Wisewoman, 08:53:01 01/23/03 Thu

You said that far better and with much more restraint than I could have managed.

;o)
[> [> Contesting this -- Tchaikovsky, 03:10:26 01/23/03 Thu

I think what I basically disagree with in your post is the implication several times that people can't/shouldn't change. I'm not saying that it is OK to have an unrecognisable character in place of your old one in each and every episode, but a long-running character development, or organic growth of a relationship both occurs in real life and is not too jolting to a story.

To argue a few of your points more specifically:

>1. This epic journey was about a chosen girl, a watcher, a normal faithful friend, a very smart heterosexual computer geek and one cursed souled vampire seeking redemption.

Yes and no. It's certainly about a chosen girl. I don't think that the other descriptions were integral to the characters. Giles as a character became not only a watcher. Xander, although without super-powers, is not exactly what I'd call 'normal' any more. Normal is a dangerous term anyway. Willow has come a long way from being a computer geek.

>2. The relationship between Buffy and her souled vampire was portrayed as pure unconditional love. A once in 243 years event.

Almost agree. But I personally think that the Angel/Buffy relationship was shown to have significant flaws. It was a first love for Buffy, almost always seen through Buffy's eyes. It was a 'love of my life' love that she moved on from in six months. And it was a love that was based on shaky foundations, with no real basis in reality. I agree it was beautiful and unconditional, but I think the end of it, and the start of new relationships, was both believable and good for the show.

>5. The shy computer geek was sweet and innocent and full of love and compassion for everyone. Heterosexual.

One word. Tara. She is 'shy'. Throughout, given the opportunity she was 'sweet and innocent [?] and full of love and compassion for everyone'. But she was homosexual. Who cares? Homosexuality doesn't rule out character traits! Willow's developing sexuality didn't somehow strip her of her character's traits.

>Just one season after we were again shown Forever, we are to believe that our chosen one would take up having sex with a soulless demon that has been her enemy since the early years? That she would willingly allow him to threaten her? Belittle her feelings? Attempt to rape her?

The 'Forever' in the title was about Joyce's death. It couldn't be nullified by Dawn's magic. Angel in 'Forever' knows that he can't stay, and doesn't. Buffy knows that her plea is a fantasy. We are indeed supposed to believe that Buffy would have sex with Spike. It was pre-figured in Spike's development since at least 'Out of My Mind', if not earlier. And for Buffy, we know her power is 'rooted in darkness', and that her resurrection left her feeling isolated and cold. Spike didn't belittle Buffy's feelings. He capitalised on them. The fact she needed comfort and reassurance, and that Spike was too busy painting a false realtionship where Buffy could really love him, is sad, but what she was really missing was the support of her close friends. And your suggestion that 'she allowed him to attempt to rape her', just makes no sense. The attempt was his own individual action. Buffy had no part in forming it.


>Mix in the fact that the faithful, who has a hatred for demons and vampires suddenly finds himself in love with one, the computer geek discovers that she is gay and turns to the dark side as a powerful witch and tries to destroy the world and the watcher who loves the slayer like a daughter but still decides to leave her when he's needed the most.

-Xander falls in love with Anya? Love is irrational. Proof? Buffy and Angel
-Willow's development happens over about 4 years, (the spell in 'Becoming' to the world ending in 'Grave'). To try to call imply it is a non sequitur by cramming it into one sentence denies the fact that it is 88 [ish] hours of television, and four years of a character's life. I don't know about you, but I have certainly changed startlingly in the last four years.
-Whether he's needed the most at the time of 'Tabula Rasa' is a moot point. I think that Giles' song in 'Once More, With Feeling' makes entirely believable and necessary aplot twist which, considering Tony Head's surprise announcement of his leaving, could have been really odd. There were also hints in 'Flooded' and 'All the Way'.

If Buffy has jumped the shark, I would like to know where, in your opinion. All the plot and character developments you mention are spread out over a vast length of time. Dissatisfaction with the show's direction I can understand, [although disagree personally]. But claiming it has somehow sacrificed its mission statement? I disagree. For the reasons Zachsmind states above, as much as for the fact that the original mission statement was all about growing up. And the show's still about that.

TCH
[> [> [> Re: Contesting this -- trilby, 11:08:30 01/23/03 Thu

For what it's worth (which isn't much, as I have hardly ever posted anything),I feel the need to delurk and commend you on your reply to the above post. I read the board whilst at work, and barely ever have time enough to post anything of substance; or am too late to the thread to add anything worthwhile. However, your post explained very succinctly what I'm feeling after having read the one to which you replied. Please don't take this as condescension, but I am extremely impressed with the maturity and sophistication in your insightful and articulate posts. Perhaps if I can ever have some good timing in responding to a post, it would mean something, but thanks anyway.
[> [> [> [> It's worth a lot- thank you -- Tchaikovsky, 13:41:42 01/23/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> That, too, means a lot- Cheers! -- Trilby, 16:28:07 01/23/03 Thu

[> Another I Do -- luna, 18:35:09 01/22/03 Wed

Also the Buffy and Spike dream wedding (Crush?)
[> [> Another I do - Buffy/Angel dream wedding! -- Helen, 02:30:13 01/23/03 Thu

Although I think the Buffy Spike affair would have been more fun - the wedding cake where the little groom figure's mouth is smeared with the blood of the innocent? Yum!
[> Guest stars on Buffy -- Rufus, 21:59:39 01/22/03 Wed

The most noteable ones are John Ritter, Jeff Kober, Bif Naked, Amiee Mann, Max Perlich, Dean Butler, Lindsay Crouse, Mark Metcalf, Harris Yulin, Hinton Battle, Jason Behr, Michael Warren, Rudolph Martin...I'm sure I missed some
Buffy's methods and some musings (spoilers to 7.12)... -- Ixchel, 18:03:25 01/22/03 Wed

Regarding Buffy's teaching methods, I believe she is trying her very best to physically _and_ mentally arm these potentials for what is to come. IMHO, she wants to give them _some_ chance of survival if she and the SG are not able to protect them all. She makes a point of how special they are to give them some confidence, but also reminds them of the gravity of the situation by talking about the ever present possibility of death. Her remarks about vampires and demons serve a clear purpose, when the potentials fight they can't hesitate or hold back. The fact that Spike is in their midst might be undermining their perception of vampires as dangerous. They consider him a person, valid in his case, but a fatal mistake with all other vampires (save one, who they aren't likely to meet). I think Buffy is trying to counter this with her speeches about "animals". Overall, Buffy probably feels that now isn't the time for nuances.

As to Faith, IMHO again Buffy thinks this isn't the time for the complexities of the last seven years and Faith is one of the greater ones.

And Dawn, I still believe that there is something they're hiding from us about Dawn. I'm not even sure she's not a potential (laugh if you must, I have strange ideas).

Concerning Spike, why did he hurt Vi's arm? _How_ did he hurt Vi's arm? I thought the chip only didn't work when he was under the FE's power? Does it work and he just endured it? Or is it malfunctioning or has it just stopped working altogether? Did he do it to emphasize the lesson, to punish himself (if the chip's still working), for fun (seems unlikely with the soul)?

Lastly, I like the potentials. I could give reasons if someone would like. But, echoing many others, if this is the last season, I want as much time as possible with Buffy, Willow, Spike, Giles, Anya, Dawn and Xander. And so I slightly resent whenever someone else is on screen.

Ixchel
[> Re: Buffy's methods and some musings (spoilers to 7.12)... -- Rahael, 03:47:25 01/23/03 Thu

Regarding Buffy's teaching methods, I believe she is trying her very best to physically _and_ mentally arm these potentials for what is to come. IMHO, she wants to give them _some_ chance of survival if she and the SG are not able to protect them all. She makes a point of how special they are to give them some confidence, but also reminds them of the gravity of the situation by talking about the ever present possibility of death. Her remarks about vampires and demons serve a clear purpose, when the potentials fight they can't hesitate or hold back. The fact that Spike is in their midst might be undermining their perception of vampires as dangerous. They consider him a person, valid in his case, but a fatal mistake with all other vampires (save one, who they aren't likely to meet). I think Buffy is trying to counter this with her speeches about "animals". Overall, Buffy probably feels that now isn't the time for nuances.

I do hope you are right Ixchel. I must confess I am a little troubled about what I've been hearing second hand. I shan't say any more than this. But uh, kind of empathising with Darby and Sophist with their reaction to one particular storyline in S6 at the moment.

They are having the last laugh on me!
[> [> No laughing here. -- Sophist, 09:11:57 01/23/03 Thu

Perhaps a snarky "told ya so". Nah, not even that.

As Louis says to Rick (Casablanca): "Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win."
[> [> [> ACK! It was Victor Lazslo who said it, of course. -- Sophist, 10:13:04 01/23/03 Thu

[> [> [> Awww! Very magnanimous! -- Rahael, in a flurry of packing, 14:24:21 01/23/03 Thu

[> [> Thanks for reading, Rahael. -- Ixchel, 15:34:46 01/23/03 Thu

Actually, I feel very positive about my interpretation of Potential. How could Buffy possibly explain the subtleties of vampires and the whole Faith situation? And I'm sure she wouldn't want to either as there is so much emotional scarring. Also, she probably feels she's giving them as much information as they can process right now. Whether she's correct in her methods, who knows? Could Giles do a better job of preparing them? Maybe, but he had training and time to become the mentor he is (and he still makes mistakes).

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I'm sure Darby and Sophist would never laugh at you. :)

Ixchel
[> [> [> I agree with you too. Rah is just nicer than I am, -- Sophist, 16:21:17 01/23/03 Thu

so she says so instead of just nodding her head and going "uh huh".

I'm glad you have such a high opinion of me. I hope you're right about Darby -- he seems to have a meme streak in him.
[> [> [> [> Thanks, Sophist. It's nice to be agreed with... -- Ixchel, 22:00:28 01/23/03 Thu

So I know I'm not in my own little world (BtVS-wise anyway).

And I certainly do, you were very kind when I first started posting.

Regarding Darby, maybe it's not his fault. Maybe it's in his genes? ;)

Ixchel
Amanda who? -- luna, 19:36:01 01/22/03 Wed

Maybe this is just my imagination, but the actress who plays Amanda keeps looking very familiar to me, but then not quite. Could she have been on any series when she was younger--like 9 or 10?
[> Sarah Hagan was on Freaks and Geeks -- oboemaboe, 20:04:49 01/22/03 Wed

[> Re: Amanda who? -- Rook, 23:39:56 01/22/03 Wed

It may just be the fact that she looks, sounds and acts a lot like Fred...well, that's what I thought, anyhow.
[> I think you're both right--thanks -- luna, 07:56:49 01/23/03 Thu

[> Re: Amanda who? -- Silky, 18:35:22 01/23/03 Thu

This character was in an earlier season 7 ep - can't remeber which one- where she came to see Buffy the counselor about people being beat up - and Buffy thought Amanda was the one being beat up, but it turned out Amanda was the one doing the beating. Guess she's been super strong all along!
Wheeee! (spoilers for Angel 4.9, 'Long Day's Journey...') -- cjl, 19:51:58 01/22/03 Wed

As a Eugene O'Neill fan, the first thing I wanted to do after watching this episode is complete the damn title: "...into night." I know the play has nothing to do with the episode--it's a reflex. Then again, maybe it DOES have something to do with the episode: Daddy's past life has messed up the family, and Mommy and the kids are re-hashing the details long after Daddy's glory years have supposedly faded into memory. But O'Neill's show biz family has nothing on Angel's dysfunctional clan...

I know there were dire goings-on here, but this episode was FUN, as Mere Smith piled on the mystical/comic book mumbo-jumbo like a triple-layer chocolate pudding cake. The Beast! Electro-Girl! Cordy's visions from the Powers that Be! The five totems of Ra! Ritual slaughter! Mystic incantations! Trans-dimensional portals! Eternal Darkness! And the Beast EATS the orb before leaping out the window?! LOL!

In less experienced hands, this could have been ludicrous; fortunately, we were rolling right along with characters we trust, and their very human reactions to the high-level weirdness kept us grounded. I especially liked Gunn this episode. He was extremely uncomfortable with Wesley and Fred's "joint research," and even less happy with their eventual recommendation. But he realized what was on the line, and kept the immature snarkage down to a minimum. It was also interesting to see him (almost) open up to Gwen. He doesn't feel he can confide in any other member of A.I., but an outsider doesn't bring any baggage to the conversation (even if she did kill him that one time).

Great seeing Gwen again. She's another of the series' top-notch femme fatales--along with Lilah, Darla, and Dru--and with Juliet Landau out of town, Julie Benz' Darla gone to Mommy Heaven, and Lilah wandering the sewers of Los Angeles, we've got to get our quota of morally ambiguous babe-dom from somewhere. ME milked the jealousy angle between Gwen and Cordy for all it's worth, but right now, she's just a minor obstruction to C/A, much like Groo was. (Frankly, I'd like to see Angel to give up on Cordelia and develop a Wesley/Lilah "got the hots for you, but I can't trust you" relationship with Gwen. But that's probably not going to happen....)

And now...ta-da! ANGELUS. Does anybody else see the personal and the cosmic merging with the blotting out of the sun and the imminent release of the dark side of Angel's psyche? L.A. is now the Devil's playground--what better time for the most feared vampire in human history to come out and play?

60 minutes, but it felt like ten.

9 out of 10.
[> Re: Whooooo! (spoilers for Angel 4.9, 'Long Day's Journey...') -- Darby, 20:06:21 01/22/03 Wed

Now that's how you advance a story arc!

Loved the mild knocking with the Beast on the other side of the door.

With very few lines he's already got more personality than all of the proto-Slayers combined.

And once more, peripheral characters with character - Manny, we hardly knew ye, but we miss you!

Gotta love how they've kept the mystery / creep factor up, even after the W&H corpse-athon last week.

How is it that they can write for the brunette Cordy but not the blond one (and make her up right)?

I don't think that they've quite settled on who Gwen is yet, but it was still nice having her around.

Speculation - could the Beast have met Angelus in the Hell dimension Buffy sent him to? Could Angel have wigged out there and been Angelus for a while? Probably not...
[> [> Re: Whooooo! (spoilers for Angel 4.9, 'Long Day's Journey...') -- shadowkat, 21:05:24 01/22/03 Wed

Had to respond to this because you so perfectly echoed what I was thinking during this episode.

Uhm...can Btvs and Ats trade writers for a few episodes?

Loved the mild knocking with the Beast on the other side of the door.
With very few lines he's already got more personality than all of the proto-Slayers combined.

And once more, peripheral characters with character - Manny, we hardly knew ye, but we miss you!

Exactly. I know we've discussed this before. But I so agree. Ats, instead of flooding the screen with six or seven new characters or a new face every episode, - does it with one or two. The shaman Gwen met - I took one look at and went - yes - cool interesting dude.
This is how you do a peripherial character.

Each character stood out and was memorable. From the evil little girl. To the shaman. To Gwen. To the Beast. To Lorne. To Many. I was upset when Many died. And none of them took the focus away from the central characters.

They advanced all the relationships with little dialogue. Advanced plot, theme and character and here's the kicker - the characters were definitely driving the plot here not the other way around.

Also they managed to reintroduce a one-shot character that had a back-story, that felt more than one-dimensional, and had chemistry with other characters and interacted well. As opposed to re-introducing a one-shot who had a two minute interaction with a lead character in a previous episode but never interacted with anyone else amongst the cast. Or continuously re-introducing a character who only interacts with two main cast members, has no clear back story, and looks mysterious. Gwen - I was intrigued with from the moment I met her in Grounded - they gave me just enough information - to keep me interested and hope she returned. And when she returned? They gave her something important to the plot to do and immediately had her interact with the other characters, building on her character and interrelationship with the lead in the process. Compare this with Btvs and Principal Wood. Or Amanda. Big difference. Whether you dislike or like Gwen - you have to admit - she had a purpose in the plot, created friction, and moved the characters, plot and theme forward, while not taking anything away from the other characters or slowing down the episode.


Speculation - could the Beast have met Angelus in the Hell dimension Buffy sent him to? Could Angel have wigged out there and been Angelus for a while? Probably not...

Yep I wondered this myself for a moment there - before we saw him with the periwig. It certainly looked like a hell-dimension.

We're on the same wave-length here Darby. Agree on everything.
[> [> Knock, knock! (spoilers for Angel 4.9, 'Long Day's Journey...') -- Deeva, 22:03:03 01/22/03 Wed

Who's there?

Uh, big scary evil guy with a head made of rock. My frinds call me Joe but I guess you can call me The Beast. Now let me in.

I love this BB! The knocking just about killed me. I mean I could see this coming from a million miles away and yet connor, he of the super hearing, super strength & speed, couldn't?
[> Re: Wheeee! (spoilers for Angel 4.9, 'Long Day's Journey...') -- shadowkat, 20:47:43 01/22/03 Wed

Agree - see my above post for the parallels to Btvs, symbolic meanings, etc.

Also rate it a 9/10. Top notch episode.

As a Eugene O'Neill fan, the first thing I wanted to do after watching this episode is complete the damn title: "...into night." I know the play has nothing to do with the episode--it's a reflex. Then again, maybe it DOES have something to do with the episode: Daddy's past life has messed up the family, and Mommy and the kids are re-hashing the details long after Daddy's glory years have supposedly faded into memory. But O'Neill's show biz family has nothing on Angel's dysfunctional clan...

Doesn't Long Day's Journey Into Night deal with alcoholism and some psychology problems? I vaguely remember Mom or Aunt being psychology unstable and Dad being or uncle being an alcoholic or am I confusing my Eugene O'Neill's?
If so - see lots of parallels.

Angelus - an addict of the worst kind, as Liam he was a nasty drunk, as Angelus he is even worse, and as Angel - well keep him away from human blood and certain drugs.

Eternity - he takes drugs, becomes Angelus, enjoying the torturous comments - reminds me of some people I know who shouldn't be allowed near alcohol.

In Dear Boy - the drink causes Liam to seduce the maids, get into brawls, and lose his funds.

In Sleep Tight - the spiking of his blood supply with Connor's causes him to go a bit wacky, wacky enough to alarm Wes into taking Connor.

In Long Day's Journey - a glass of Blood knocks him out and allows lord knows who to take over.

And now...ta-da! ANGELUS. Does anybody else see the personal and the cosmic merging with the blotting out of the sun and the imminent release of the dark side of Angel's psyche? L.A. is now the Devil's playground--what better time for the most feared vampire in human history to come out and play?

Yes - the blotting out of Angel's soul = blotting out of the sun and the release of his dark side. Just as the blotting out of daylight - creates a world where our demons can come out to play - the dark night of the id indeed.

It also reminds me of something else that I mentioned in the post above - Angelus' last horrible plan when he was in complete control - to suck the world into hell via a vortex or portal. Odd - Wes and Fred are trying to suck the Devil into one.

Great seeing Gwen again. She's another of the series' top-notch femme fatales--along with Lilah, Darla, and Dru--and with Juliet Landau out of town, Julie Benz' Darla gone to Mommy Heaven, and Lilah wandering the sewers of Los Angeles, we've got to get our quota of morally ambiguous babe-dom from somewhere. ME milked the jealousy angle between Gwen and Cordy for all it's worth, but right now, she's just a minor obstruction to C/A, much like Groo was. (Frankly, I'd like to see Angel to give up on Cordelia and develop a Wesley/Lilah "got the hots for you, but I can't trust you" relationship with Gwen. But that's probably not going to happen....)

Loving Gwen, missing Lilah. Hoping they can bring Lilah back soon. I don't know...an Angel/Gwen story could still happen. Anythings possible. Although I would definitely not want to be Cordy when Angelus wakes up. Interesting - if the Beast can pull Angelus' strings why did it leave Cordy alive? For that matter why hasn't it killed our heros?

Yep the time flew by...barely even noticed the commericals.

Angel is rocking this year IMHO.
[> I'll see your Whee and raise you a Whoo-Hoo! (spoilers 4.9) -- Scroll, 22:13:53 01/22/03 Wed

After two years of waiting extra days for "Angel" to air (I get "Angel" on Tuesday nights, after "Buffy") I am now in the lucky position of getting "Angel" one day before the rest of you! Whoo! erm, sorry, I shouldn't gloat.

I too liked Gunn in this episode. His worry over Fred and Wesley seemed more real and justified, though I must admit it might be because we were seeing things from his POV, whereas last week we were mostly in Wesley's.

I'm fascinated by the Egyptian mythology, and I want to learn more about the Ra-tet. And I'm patting myself on the back for a prediction I made in September; see, I knew the foreshadowing in "Buffy" wasn't a coincidence! Now we just have to see how ceramics are going to play into the plot...

Once again I am awed by how beautifully Angel is shot. That stunt guy (I'm assuming he's a stuntman) for Connor is incredible. That rebound off the pillar and the spin-kick to the Beast's face was just gorgeous...

Also loving Gwen. She and Angel have chemistry, and she had a nice friendly vibe going with Gunn. And maybe her b*tchiness will rub off on Cordelia, and Queen C will make a (brief!) reappearance. :)
[> [> Sorry, not September, I meant October -- Scroll, 22:20:26 01/22/03 Wed

...though I'm having a hard time locating my post from back then. Would be nice to get some proof to remind me of what the heck I was talking 4 months ago.

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