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My analysis of Habeas Corpus is up -- Masquerade, 17:54:39 01/19/03 Sun

Here. Enjoy!
[> Lilah -- pagangodess(long time no see), 21:05:54 01/19/03 Sun

While everyone here seems to be singing Lilah's praises, I just wanted to point out that, she only told Wesley about Connor being trapped AFTER they escaped down the chute with no way back in. 'I'll let him save me first and then tell him about Connor...so long as my own skin is safe...'

That was just my impression.
[> [> Re: Lilah -- anom (yeah, it has been! nice to see you!), 17:59:37 01/20/03 Mon

I didn't get the impression Lilah was deliberately holding back that info, thinking, "Once I'm out of here & safe, I'll tell him Connor's in there." It looked like it didn't even occur to her while they were escaping (& you know Romanov could've made it plain if Lilah had it in mind the whole time). Getting a claw stabbed into her gut & thinking she was about to be killed would probably tend to focus her mind quite sharply on her own survival--that is, even more than usual. If I remember this right (didn't tape it, & it's not up at Psyche's yet), when Wes found Lilah, she was running as best she could while holding that gut wound. So I doubt Connor was on her mind till she had a little breathing space (as in having a reasonable expectation that she was gonna be able to keep breathing).

OK, now what about Wesley? He leaves Lilah, badly wounded, in a sewer tunnel, telling her to get herself to a doctor! And he begins to leave her behind before she tells him about Connor--i.e., before he knows there's a reason he needs to hurry away. How did he know she wouldn't collapse before she got out of the tunnel?
[> Isn't the title 'Habeas Corpses'? -- HonorH, 21:31:12 01/19/03 Sun

I mean, that's what I saw at the Sanctuary. It's a play on the term habeas corpus which I assumed had something to do with the plot. Was I wrong? Was Sanctuary wrong?
[> [> Yes -- Tchaikovsky, 01:00:23 01/20/03 Mon

And it's correct on Masq's actual page.

TCH
[> [> It's correct in the episode analysis itself... : ) -- Masq, 09:22:35 01/20/03 Mon

But I'd just gotten done looking at posts on the legal definition of the origin term and was brain-dead to boot! : )
[> Koyaanisqatsi -- Arethusa, 22:35:04 01/19/03 Sun

Great stuff, Masq. Oh, joy! I'm quoted. Oh, pain! It's not my occiptal lobe's work-it's just a little legal googling.

So we have koyaanisqatsi-world out of balance-in LA and Sunnydale. Both the FE and the Beast attack order, spreading chaos, although one attacks good to do so, and the other attacks evil. In Sunnydale, a death followed by a seemingly impossible resurrection tipped the balance between good and evil. A woman died, was reborn, died again, and was reborn again. Now somehow the First Evil is free to disrupt the balance between order and chaos. It raised a long-dead or immobilized evil creature to attack the agents of good and order, and tried to sway formerly evil Spike to its side. But by its actions it has returned the formidable warrior for evil to Buffy's side, in the only way possible-make him so crazy miserable that Buffy can lay aside her own pain and feel Spike's. Now Buffy, Spike, the SITs, Anya, Giles, Xander, and Dawn are all united against it, and one of its lesser minnions is also lost to its influence.


In LA, a seemingly impossible birth might have tipped the balance. A woman died, came back to life, and died again, after giving birth to a boy who could not exist. Is he the answer AI is looking for-did his birth change the odds forever onto the side of order? And now the rough beast that Lorne saw slouching towards Bethlehem has arrived, and one of the first things it does is separate Angel from the two people that make him very happy. And why aren't TPTB doing their little bit to tip the scales? Was that why Cordy was returned? So far, all she's done is spread a little chaos of her own.


The movie Koyaanisqatsi was directed by Godfrey Reggio, who has some interesting things to say about what art is, and where its meaning comes from. The movie is a series of images, with no dialogue, and a score by Philip Glass.
"Created between 1975 and 1982, the film is an apocalyptic vision of the collision of two different worlds -- urban life and technology versus the environment."
Reggio said, "KOYAANISQATSI is not so much about something, nor does it have a specific meaning or value. KOYAANISQATSI is, after all, an animated object, an object in moving time, the meaning of which is up to the viewer. Art
has no intrinsic meaning. This is its power, its mystery, and hence, its attraction. Art is free. It stimulates the viewer to insert their own meaning, their own value. So while I might have this or that intention in creating this film, I realize fully that any meaning or value KOYAANISQATSI might have comes exclusively from the beholder. The film's role is to provoke, to raise questions that only the audience can answer. This is the highest value of any work of art, not predetermined meaning, but meaning gleaned from the experience of the encounter. The encounter is my interest, not the meaning. If meaning is the point, then propaganda and advertising is the form. So in the sense of art, the meaning of KOYAANISQATSI is whatever you wish to make of it.

This is its power."

http://www.koyaanisqatsi.org/films/koyaanisqatsi.php

BtVS and AtS are what we make of them. We all see something different in the shows, because we are looking for something different. And the shows have a different context for each of us. It also means that perfect accord is impossible-and indeed, should not be a goal. We are at our worst when we try to get everyone to agree with our own point of view, and at our best when we use our different points of view to open new worlds for each other.
(I think I dropped a philosophical pretentiousness tag somewhere!)
[> [> Re: Koyaanisqatsi -- Angela, 06:31:18 01/20/03 Mon

"In LA, a seemingly impossible birth might have tipped the balance. A woman died, came back to life, and died again, after giving birth to a boy who could not exist."

If Dawn is from Buffy, that's another parallel for you!

And I really liked what you said at the end (didn't see any dropped tags.) :-)
[> [> [> wow - good point! -- Rahael, 07:06:35 01/20/03 Mon

[> [> Great post... -- shadowkat, 20:55:27 01/20/03 Mon

BtVS and AtS are what we make of them. We all see something different in the shows, because we are looking for something different. And the shows have a different context for each of us. It also means that perfect accord is impossible-and indeed, should not be a goal. We are at our worst when we try to get everyone to agree with our own point of view, and at our best when we use our different points of view to open new worlds for each other.

That statement answered five querying posts I've made on the board in last two days, very succintly and well. Bravo.

Art
has no intrinsic meaning. This is its power, its mystery, and hence, its attraction. Art is free. It stimulates the viewer to insert their own meaning, their own value. So while I might have this or that intention in creating this [work of art], I realize fully that any meaning or value [the work] might have comes exclusively from the beholder. The [work's] role is to provoke, to raise questions that only the audience can answer. This is the highest value of any work of art, not predetermined meaning, but meaning gleaned from the experience of the encounter. The encounter is my interest, not the meaning. If meaning is the point, then propaganda and advertising is the form. So in the sense of art, the meaning of [this work] is whatever you wish to make of it.

[] are mine to emphasize the point, you make so well.

Art is indeed what we make of it. And by sharing our views differing ones and similar with each other...I think we add to the work...yes, finally someone to put my rambling thoughts of the last few days into words. Thank you.

Was feeling a tad cynical/depressed (having troubles finding right words at moment) lately about point of spending time writing or creating art or posting or any of the above...your words make me remember why I strive to do it. (Not for fame, not for fortune...to just connect and somehow interact with others...to not be as cliche as it might sound an island in of myself.)
[> [> [> Me too -- Rahael, 06:13:09 01/21/03 Tue

Well, not cynical or depressed, but not feeling that it was very point-ful. Can I ask why you feel this way?

I'm finding that I'm actually getting disenchanted with BtVS. That I've seen too much in a programme that doesn't have any of those things in it. I'm actually finding myself with a feeling of being ......cheated...for some reason. Maybe I've just overloaded on the whole Buffy experience.

It could be that I'm just tired, grumpy and need a freaking holiday. Which I shall. 2 days and counting.
[> [> [> [> Re: Me too -- Arethusa, 10:49:47 01/21/03 Tue

Actually, I was feeling the same way-why the heck do I spend so much time reading and writing posts when I should be doing accounts or ironing or playing with the kids? It's not like I'm curing cancer here, or making money, or gaining prestige, or adding to the accumulation of knowledge in the world. But since I can't stop (and I've tried), I know there's a good reason. I need the human contact, the exchange of ideas. If I worry too much about the worthiness or purpose of my posts, I become paralyzed and post nothing. I have to make a leap of faith and trust that what I'm doing is right, even if the only person it helps is me.

But I certainly understand Rahael's point. I often feel let down after watching a BtVS episode, because I now expect so much from the show. Also, a lot of the fun and wit in the show is gone, since the kids are now adults who are accumulating so much baggage that soon they'll no longer be allowed on an airplane. "Selfless" is one of the few episode this year that I found satisfying on multiple levels. (Bowing towards the direction of Drew Goddard now.)I must have lower standards for AtS, since it seldom disappoints. Maybe just seeing Angel struggle with his dark nature is enough. I adore Buffy, but I identify with Angel's often losing struggle to overcome his flaws and be the kind of person he longs to be.

Thanks, sk. Have a great holiday, Rahael. If I could, I'd send you some of our promiscuously overabundant Texas sunshine and warm weather.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Me too -- shadowkat, 14:23:44 01/21/03 Tue

Actually, I was feeling the same way-why the heck do I spend so much time reading and writing posts when I should be doing accounts or ironing or playing with the kids? It's not like I'm curing cancer here, or making money, or gaining prestige, or adding to the accumulation of knowledge in the world. But since I can't stop (and I've tried), I know there's a good reason. I need the human contact, the exchange of ideas. If I worry too much about the worthiness or purpose of my posts, I become paralyzed and post nothing. I have to make a leap of faith and trust that what I'm doing is right, even if the only person it helps is me.

Once again you phrased this perfectly. I guess my answer is the same as yours and Rahael's. Like Rahael - I've found myself less than enthused with Btvs at the moment and somewhat afraid I will be ...cheated. I've also wondered if I'm not expecting too much, or stretching the metaphors too far. (In the back of my mind is a heretical little voice asking - uhm this is JUST a tv show about a girl killing vampires - get a life.) I should be working on more query letters and working on another novel and well working on getting a new job...well I am working on that, but well...anyways. But going online and hammering these things out with you guys and gals is in a sense a release and makes me feel good. And it doesn't put on the pounds like chocolat. ;-)


But I certainly understand Rahael's point. I often feel let down after watching a BtVS episode, because I now expect so much from the show. Also, a lot of the fun and wit in the show is gone, since the kids are now adults who are accumulating so much baggage that soon they'll no longer be allowed on an airplane. "Selfless" is one of the few episode this year that I found satisfying on multiple levels. (Bowing towards the direction of Drew Goddard now.)I must have lower standards for AtS, since it seldom disappoints. Maybe just seeing Angel struggle with his dark nature is enough. I adore Buffy, but I identify with Angel's often losing struggle to overcome his flaws and be the kind of person he longs to be.

Also agree more or less. Except of course I identify closer with Spike's struggle to become a better man, but that's a whole other debate that we've had way too often of late. And actually - Wes and Angel's struggle is easier to watch right now, because I expect less and well, it's less focused on Buffy. As much as I adore Buffy...I think on some level I may be growing tired of all the focus being on her? Don't know.

Will state that the last few episodes...seemed not as up to par as Beneath You, Selfless, and Conservations with Dead People. Selfless of all the episodes really stands out for me, maybe because it's the only episode that gave me new insight into "all" of the main characters and their relations with each other, as well as wrapping up few major plot threads: Buffy, Willow, Xander, Anya and Spike. CwDP while beautifully constructed, only gave me new insight into one character - Buffy and created more questions.
Ben
[> [> [> [> [> [> Gothic gyrating twist -- fresne, 17:44:14 01/21/03 Tue

Hmmm...Word ate my post and I must begin again.

Breaking the flow of disenchantment, this season, I am filled with this sense of bubble. Of anticipation of ringing note. I feel as if BtVS is a great bell. A 1000 pounds of bronze in an acoustic tower. Joss, or ME if you prefer, each season in flashing arc swings and strikes the bell with a hammer. Vibrating notes. Echoing. This season, the final season, I hope, I think, I truly believe, is the swing that will make all other strikes but taps. That final resonating note, placed just so.

Resounding. Filling. And silence.

The silence of voluptuary thought. Some will hate it. Some will love it. Some will resolve themselves into a dew. Flicker like burning candles. Speak of tales told by idiots. But the thought itself will be pleased because it exists.

The worth of the thought, thoughts, deriving from me. From you. From the flashing points where we meet and slide in counter step. Odd to think that without this thing, the story that is Buffy, this place would not exist. I never would have imagined any of your existences. And thus from my world view, the only one I have, you did not exist. And even further, this self who ponders and posts, she did not exist. Given fingers and words from the bend and curve of a story.

Today I got a call. Don't linger at work. There's a new Buffy tonight. I had no idea. Tonight instead of grinding numbers and words, I'll fly for home. Drink the wine of new Buffy (for once not a metaphor, we went wine tasting this weekend.) Revel as the conversation turns from Buffy to the personal to the political to the divine to the Buffy.

Plus, I went Goth dancing last night. Lack of sleep + endorphins puts me in a good mood. I mean come on a set with Big Country and Dead Man's Party resolving in a walk to my car in the rain. If it had been any more atmospheric I'd have exploded.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Beautifully said, and so right. -- Arethusa, 18:49:57 01/21/03 Tue

Tonight's episode resonated with echoes of the past and hope for the future.

Did you know one of the definitions of resonance was "a synchronous gravitational relationship between two celestial bodies (as moons) that orbit a third (as a planet)which can be expressed as a simple ratio of their orbital periods"? Buffy, Willow and Xander resonate too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Beautiful as always- and hopeful -- Tchaikovsky, 02:10:57 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> I can relate, Rah -- Masq, 14:39:57 01/21/03 Tue

Maybe it's all the work I've done on the website and on this board, but I feel very burnt out on BtVS right now. I actually had to take a break from the board in December because I just couldn't stand thinking about it.

Season 7 is going OK, don't get me wrong, but I'm just reaching my saturation point. I think, also, I was down in the dumps with the two-month hiatus of Angel and no one talking about it at the board.

I for one, won't be upset if this is the last season of BtVS. But I will do analyses on my website for any Buffyverse episodes that take place, just ... cause... I'm a finisher!
[> [> [> [> [> I'm totally with you -- Rahael, 15:03:44 01/21/03 Tue

I actually don't mind that it's the last season. I'm loving AtS, I really am.

And uh, B/A moves me - B/S doesn't!

So you aren't alone.

I'll miss Buffy herself, and Anya. :(
[> [> [> [> [> No one talking about Angel -- Rufus, 22:42:57 01/21/03 Tue

There has been plenty of talking about Angel.....it's just that it's on Spoiler type boards. I'm thrilled with both shows right now and aren't burnt out on either. I wonder if it's the fact that I'm not a shipper and just enjoy the interactions of all the characters.

I don't say as much on the board anymore because besides being spoiled I also make some pretty accurate guesses which I keep mainly to myself on even the spoiled board.

Buffy as a series takes time to get going and frequently isn't hitting it's stride til after the 11th episode. Angel is a bit different where there is lots of action but it tends to lose wind at the end of a season. What I find frustrating and disheartening is the constant Angel or Buffy as series is better....I like both of them for different reasons...I may prefer Buffy but I don't feel I have to take anything away from Angel as a series to make my point. If people are not talking about Angel the Series instead of finding ways to put BTVS down I suggest people post stuff about Angel, not about how BTVS sucks and ATS is better....cause it's contributing to my discomfort with the board as of late.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Too much passion - can lead to combustion -- Rahael, 02:17:26 01/22/03 Wed

Well I don't know. I thought Masq saying she was burnt out after years and years of doing ep reviews wasn't really putting BtVS down. I think she was just being honest.

I think it's only natural that AtS is fresher - comparing BtVS S3 and AtS S3, you can see a similar level of freshness and energy.

And I just feel tired after years of BtVS enthusiasm and cheerleading - bested only by Rob I have to say.

In recent months, I have defended Buffy against the idea that it's racist, a nazi show, as well as countless posts about its significance and emotional power.

You might want to contrast this with the oft repeated assumption among many of the best posters in this site that AtS is less layerd, less metaphorical, less well acted, less interesting, less philosophical, and has less emotional power and this, in explicit contrast to Buffy. It doesn't really rile me all that much cos tastes vary.

I didn't think it was out of place to comment: Wow, I just saw AtS season 3, and I'm in love. And I've not bothered once to rewatch Buffy S6.

But if it's creating bad feeling on the board, I won't bother saying anything. I've just never thougth twice about saying how I feel about the shows, but I guess so far it's just been "I love it" and at the moment it's just "eh".

Well I guess I can whinge to d'Herblay now he's back. I'll be good miss! Plus I get the feeling I'm not going to be online all that much in the near future ;)

(PS, I am not a shipper in that sense, and I am a little irritated that you know, my critical enjoyment of the show should be assumed to be based on that. As far as I can see it's not the shippers who have been saying "I prefer AtS" - for gawd's sake, AtS has Cordy/Connor!!!!!)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers for aired Season 4 AtS eps above -- Rahael, 02:19:40 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Rah.....read my post and tell me where I said you or anyone else is a shipper. -- Rufus, 03:03:44 01/22/03 Wed

I asked out loud if my enjoyment of both shows is enhanced by the fact that I'm not a shipper....I certainly didn't hang the label on anyone else here..it was part of the first paragraph and has little to do with what I said later.

What I said about people putting Buffy down is a seperate issue, as not everyone is a shipper of any kind. You seem intent on taking my comments very personally....if I were talking directly to you or anyone, I would use your or their name. The fact is, the constant back and forth about which show is "better" is getting us nowhere. What we like or dislike is based upon our personal preferences...some will like Buffy and some will like Angel, and even more will like both.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Enjoyment of shows -- Rahael, 03:36:33 01/22/03 Wed

Sorry if I misread you - I just assumed when you said this:

I'm thrilled with both shows right now and aren't burnt out on either. I wonder if it's the fact that I'm not a shipper and just enjoy the interactions of all the characters.

that you were referring to people who were 'burnt out on the shows'. I don't think it was an unnatural assumption to make because you said you weren't burnt out, and it might be to do with the fact you weren't a shipper. I just wanted to point out that I was burnt out and it has nothing to do with ships.

But thanks for the clarification ;)

As for taking comments personally, I don't think I have. I just assumed you were replying to my posts on the board explicitly stating that I was no longer enjoying Buffy and enjoying Angel at the same time. I got to put my hands up to that accusation - I have been doing that. Felt a little guilty when I read your post. If you say posters have been doing something to make you feel uncomfortable and I know I've been doing that more than anyone else, I'm going to be putting my hands up!!

As for constant back and forths about the show, I won't be doing that anymore.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nope, not at all. -- Rufus, 04:46:34 01/22/03 Wed

You aren't the only one who has made comments. But at least you asked if I meant you.

Angel....it's a tough situation...I've got loads of spoilers for the show and can only stress just how thrilled I am at what is coming up. Same on Buffy. I take both shows almost as one as I feel watching each enhances my enjoyment of both. I'd like to see more posts about Angel, but you can only lead horses to water...the drinking or posting is up to them. I think part of the problem this season was that the long and I mean long hiatus started leaving us with the image of the C/C coupling, and it caused many people to wonder what the hell had happened....all I can say is that all will be explained soon enough and for those patient enough to wait it will be worth it.

A slight spoiler for the credits of Angel for tommorrow...I saw the show tonight.....at the end is In loving Memory of Glenn Quinn
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not a shipper at all but am burnt out on Buffy -- Masq, 09:10:27 01/22/03 Wed

Not on Angel, but not a shipper there, either. It has nothing to do with ships and a lot to do with seeing characters and story lines go thin and stale.

Takes away the boundless energy I used to have to do my website! : )
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Heresy! But I do understand. -- ponygirl, 11:37:40 01/22/03 Wed

I don't agree with you about things going thin or stale, but I do feel the need for a definite end to Buffy's story. After spending a LOT of time thinking about this show I crave a bit of release from it. To be able to step back and see the work as a whole, rather than always being caught up in the speculation. Don't know if that makes any sense, but I hear ya!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I have to disagree. -- Rufus, 22:21:05 01/22/03 Wed

I don't think Buffy is stale at all this year, and I don't think Angel is either. We are at mid-season a time where everyone tends to get a bit testy with what is going on in a series with a story arc like BTVS and AtS. It's also about personal preference.....if you prefer the story in one you just may think the other is stale. From fan response I feel that many have been happier with BTVS this year than last. I see both sides some complain about ATS thinking it's got nowhere to go, just as you think Buffy is stale....I disagree on both points.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually I'm feeling really crappy about my behaviour -- Rahael, 04:01:14 01/22/03 Wed

I just reread my post and I can see how my B/S and B/A line could have come off as shippery.

Waaaaaah! d'H, email me. Otherwise I'll be doing my usual grovellings and what not.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes... -- Masq, 09:07:29 01/22/03 Wed

I have actually gone to other boards to find Angel discussion and they are almost all spoiler boards, or they are "Conner is sooo cute" boards.

I thought a while back of dividing the ATPo board into two boards, but I thought that would be too divisive to the community.
[> Minor question. -- neaux, 04:28:10 01/20/03 Mon

In your analysis you say that Gunn snaps the neck of Gavin. I thought Gunn decapitated Gavin?

Am I wrong?
who's the S******** S*****? (speculation, minor spoilery) -- Clen, 13:05:56 01/20/03 Mon

I asked this before and I'll ask it again (before Buffy is on tonight): who do you think is the extra Sunnydale Slayer Willow's spell reveals the existence of? A new person, a returning character?

In a way, I guess it makes sense there would be a potential on the Hellmouth, supply meeting demand and all that.
[> Spoiler for NEW ep in above post -- Dariel, 15:06:38 01/20/03 Mon

If I hadn't peaked at the TV Guide you'd a spoiled me. This is not a minor spoiler in my book. Unless they're just jerking our chain and it's no one we know.

I'm betting on Dawn. Or one of her friends, which would be fun (Kit or Janice).
[> [> Spoiler -- swyrlz, 15:15:10 01/20/03 Mon

The girl who was sent to Buffy's office for fighting, but first it seems to be Dawn
[> [> frankly -- Clen, 08:53:03 01/21/03 Tue

frankly, I feel like a bit of a candyass typing up whether it's a minor spoiler, big spoiler, MAJOR SPOILER, and OMG!!!!!11 j00 l33T SPOILAGE r0X0rz!

I'm leaning towards just saying "spoiler" and just leave it at that.
[> [> [> And Frankly -- Rahael, 09:13:10 01/21/03 Tue

You might need to check the Spoiler Policy (Link right at the top of the board, in big bold letters)

You don't have to say "minor spoiler, big spoiler, MAJOR SPOILER, and OMG!!!!!11 j00 l33T SPOILAGE r0X0rz!" . You just need to mark clearly what the Spoiler is for. I.e, Spoiler for Tonight's ep, or Future Spoiler, is to my mind the most important warning to make. Because you might ruin the ep that someone's waiting to see.

It's also courteous, if the ep has aired this week, to specify that your post contains spoilers for it - because, lots of people don't get the ep tonight. They might get it later on in the week.

Now I'm completely and utterly spoiled. But we have had Posters LEAVE the board because they don't want to be continuosly spoiled. And the unspoiled are the majority here.

I'm leaning towards just saying "spoiler" and just leave it at that.

If you just label your post 'spoiler' and 'leave it at that' it won't get read by a whole lot of people - because you might be spoiling the season finale. You might not, but who wants to risk finding out???
[> [> [> [> Exactly! -- Dariel, 10:14:03 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> but -- Clen, 11:20:10 01/21/03 Tue

is it not enough that my title often says what the subject is? Is it necessary that I say
"thoughts on 7.12 (spoilers for 7.12)"
or can I just say
"thoughts on 7.12 (spoilers)"

My problem with this thread was that putting the title would be a spoiler in itself. I guess I could have said
"what it says in tv guide (spoilers for 7.12)"
but otherwise, I think my title makes it clear what would be spoiled.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: but -- Rahael, 11:44:29 01/21/03 Tue

Yeah, Ep titles are a real gray area. I think that basically you just got to think, "am I making things clear for the non spoiled" - bearing in mind that there are people here who don't read TV Guide ep summaries or even watch promos for the next ep.

To be honest, I didn't guess what your subject line was supposed to mean. (In fact, I still don't know what the asteriks stand for!) so I don't know what minor spoiler you might be referring to.

I *like* having spoilery discussions in here, but I get a bit pissed off with improperly marked spoilers because it gets the nonspoiled all agitated and then the spoiled people get told to take it to the Voy Spoiler board. Which no one reads. I could post to the Yahoo group, but the kind of metaphorical analysis/ramblings I like doing find even less of an audience there then here.

Why not just label it "Spoiler for tonight's ep"? No numbers to remember and everyone would know what you're referring to! You might get an extended discussion on it once people saw the ep as well.
[> [> [> [> [> [> what the asterisks mean (spoilers for this week's Buffy ep, as brought up in tv guide) -- Clen, 12:42:46 01/21/03 Tue

I figure I will get more specific about what I am spoiling, but leave out all the gradations of spoilery. I usually am, to be honest, just this one slip has earned me scorn and derision (which has turned out to be much more fun than the topic itself, so I'm not complaining).

It means Sunnydale Slayer, natch.

Heh, extended discussion? I harbour no delusions of that.
[> [> [> [> [> [> It's deja vu all over again! -- Caroline, 14:31:37 01/21/03 Tue

I guess the last time we had this brouhaha I was the one asking that people indicate spoilers accurately. Just wanted to give a word of support to Rahael in what I know is a thankless task.

It appears that except for some lucky Canadians and people with satellites, most of us in the US see the ep on Tuesday night and start discussing in depth after that. For those lucky posters who see it earlier, I know it must be strain to have to wait until then - so please, please, please label spoilers for this week's episode. It's just a courtesy to fellow posters like me.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> FTR -- Clen, 14:57:42 01/21/03 Tue

I'm sure that wasn't specifically directed at me, but to Canadians in general, but here is my position:

I created this thread before I saw the show on Monday, merely basing the topic off what I saw in tv guide. I should have labelled it as such, and have already acknowledged so. Anything I have ever posted on what I saw Monday night has always been explicitly labelled as such, to my recollection, excepting any first-time mistake. I could wait until Wednesday to post, but for a few reasons:
a) I type it when it's fresh in my memory
b) Tuesday morning is great for me, I have that whole day pretty much to myself
c) I'm told my posts are lame, so this way I have noone else to compete with

etchetera, etchetera.....
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is a very long running debate -- Rahael, 15:14:10 01/21/03 Tue

Because the problem crops up again and again. It's a pentagonal debate and I've been on all sides at some point or another.

This isn't personally directed at anyone - it's just trying to allow everyone to enjoy the show through the board - spoiled and unspoiled. That's all.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks Caroline ;) -- Rahael, 02:29:15 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: frankly -- PepTech, 10:42:56 01/21/03 Tue

frankly, I feel like a bit of a candyass typing up whether it's a minor spoiler, big spoiler...

I'm glad for you that you get to see the ep early, but if you must post about it, why not use the spoiler board (conveniently linked to above)? In the absence of that, appending an ep number to the spoiler tag should not be particularly taxing. Some people don't want to be spoiled, and the least a community member can do is be respectful of the wishes of the community.
[> [> [> [> I'm glad for you too -- Clen, 11:27:04 01/21/03 Tue

I can admit that my title for this thread was too vague, and I feel responsibility for that. I will be more helpful on my side of things in the future. In return, I would like it if you would not come off as so snotty, Peptech, it should not be so taxing either.
[> [> [> [> [> I appreciate that... -- PepTech, 13:06:14 01/21/03 Tue

I can admit that my title for this thread was too vague, and I feel responsibility for that. I will be more helpful on my side of things in the future.

...though I'm unclear on your hostility. You often (weekly) post so-called "future" spoilers, and appear to be frustrated when those threads don't garner enough responses for your liking (as in last week's complaint about quick archiving). Furthermore, your use of "candyass" seemed to indicate that you were also frustrated with having to exhaustively qualify your spoilers.

In that light, a simple suggestion to use an ep number should not have been a big deal. But whatever.
[> [> [> [> [> [> whatever indeed -- Clen, 13:41:50 01/21/03 Tue

there were no emoticons to indicate it, but I would call it more bemused than hostile. if you pore through this thread, you will see that I respond to different people in different ways, my system involves trying to reflect what I am given. Furthermore, I thought I had stated directly enough that I don't like to bother with various grades of spoil. My use of "candyass" merely indicates my desire to make it a more prominent part of my vocabulary, along with "ostensibly".

On another note, I'm all aflutter that you keep track of what I post. You should know then that I almost always use episode numbers. Does keeping track mean you might like me, really really like me? Ostensibly so...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> More ostensiblys- less fighting! -- TCH- unrolling his hippy banner., 14:18:11 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agitate much? -- PepTech, 14:22:50 01/21/03 Tue

On another note, I'm all aflutter that you keep track of what I post

For Chrissake, get over yourself.

Does keeping track mean you might like me, really really like me?

More like in this harbor of civility, the ignoble stick out. Whoo hoo, look at you, you get to post lame "what do you think *this* means" questions before everyone else; congratulations. The recent addition of the martyr complex - ostensibly for having to bear the burden of watching the show before the rest of the unwashed - is a nice touch. I mean, yes, yes, I breathlessly await your thorough analysis of next Tuesday's show next Monday. I don't know why Masq doesn't just cut and paste your wisdom for the site.

Bored now.

And for everyone else, sorry you had to see this. I feel dirty.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> you're a little pissy, I like you -- Clen, 14:49:05 01/21/03 Tue

Did you just say you were unwashed? That's really uncalled for man, take a bath.

*get over yourself*

but then howsoever would I spend my time?

Let's see...taking shots at my posts now. I sometimes like poking back with sticks, I feel it takes the heat off me, while the other person usually projects whatever else is bugging them on me. For the record, I was trying to be sarcastic and playful and maybe a little mocking, but never mean-spirited. Where did this martyr thing come from? Because I was implying you're not gonna be my friend? No, that was just my 10 second brainstorm on fitting the word in. As for the quality of my posts, I'm certainly no expert; I invite your constructive feedback, but your comments just seem more like shots, although I can appreciate the sarcasm (though a little too blunt for my tastes).

Ok, FINE...I think you're a big stupidhead too, and you spell harbour without the "u", ha ha....that's like Certs without the Retsin.

This quasi-flaming is fun, and really, what else is the Internet for? It's just a cat-toy between two people, no need for hippy banners.

*And for everyone else, sorry you had to see this. I feel dirty.*

Also, ignobly uncivil.
[> This answer is VERY very spoilery. Enter at your own risk. -- ZachsMind, 15:17:09 01/20/03 Mon

"who do you think is the extra Sunnydale Slayer Willow's spell reveals the existence of? A new person, a returning character?"

I can't answer this question without spoilage.

I am a Spoiler PIMP, m'kay? So I'm not one of those people who thinks spoilage actually spoils the enjoyment of the show. For me it enriches my enjoyment. So I seek out information and learn what I can. Still, I can't 100% vouch for the below information. It's just what I've picked up along the way. However, the above subject line and this paragraph should be seen as a spoiler warning. If you've read this far and you don't like spoilage it's not my darn fault. Stop reading or don't be unhappy with me. Thank you.

My research indicates the actual slayer potential for tomorrow night's episode will be Amanda, who was the introverted student that Buffy talked to as a guidance counselor back in the episode "Help" earlier this season. Remember the episode where Cassie died? There was another girl who Buffy talked to around the same time. Amanda was directed to Buffy by a teacherr named Mr. Miller. She explained to Buffy about how she stood up to a bully, "and I slammed his stupid-ass insecure face right into the pavement... Do you think I should pound on him some more?" Between you and me, I didn't need Willow's magic to see where Whedon was going with this one.

Willow's magic points to Dawn because 1) Willow's magic is all screwed up anyway since she doesn't really know how to control it, 2) Dawn being practically a clone of Buffy gives off similar vibes to a Slayer, and 3) Dawn being the result of a magic spell herself, and secretly a big glowing orb of Key energy, would mess up most any spell if she was too close. Dawn'll go through a bulk of the episode assuming Willow to be right, but Amanda shows up near the end of the episode and Dawn figures out Willow was wrong.

Then there's gonna be this ultra-cool scene between Xander & Dawn which is not to be missed. Something I've been waiting for, for seven years. It's gonna be cool. =)
[> [> Re: This answer is VERY very spoilery. Enter at your own risk. -- Michael, 18:28:34 01/21/03 Tue

Geez, where did you get that information? It was dead on. No, don't tell me, then you'd have to kill me.
I have to admit I cringed a bit when we were led to believe it was Dawn, but I thought it was handled well.
Amanda seems tougher than the other four, hmmm... what does your crystal orb say? No, don't tell me...
B/A shippers are there any of you left out there ?- I feel so alone!!!!! -- JulieB, 13:48:02 01/21/03 Tue

Sorry if this thread has been done before. Had another thought, anyone interested in speculating how they might incorporate a cross-over into the end of Buffy, bearing in mind that there may or may not be a series eight? Also bearing in mind that SMG might not appear even if there is one.

For all B/A shippers outthere how could there be a happy? or relatively happy ending, incorporating a reconciliation between the two characters, that would also allow for Angel the Series to continue?? and one that was a little bit healthy for a change.(If such a possibility exists, let's assume that it does)

I know many posters reading this will think me naive, or believe such a reconciliation would not be good for either party, that both have moved on or that Spike is Buffy's ideal mate or that those types of happy endings don't happen in the Whedon universe.... BUT BE KIND,... A GIRL CAN DREAM CAN'T SHE, SO BEAR WITH ME, I'D BE INTERESTED IN WHAT SCENARIOS US BELIEVERS IN LOST CAUSES CAN COME UP WITH.
[> I'm a B/A shipper..... -- Alison, 14:02:34 01/21/03 Tue

and I did hear that DB might do a crossover if this is SMGs last ep....but I'd rather not get my hopes up...joss will crush me..sigh.
[> First, both seasons end. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:11:00 01/21/03 Tue

And during the summer there is a Buffy/Angel crossover mini-series. This could be used to give them a reconciliation. What sort of reconciliation? Um, not sure, next question. :)
[> What will happen if Angel shows up for the Buffy (7.22) finale? -- cjl, 14:26:48 01/21/03 Tue

To me, this is NOT a mere exercise in Buffy/Angel academia. If the head of the WB (the network that dare not speak Buffy's name) has actually given Joss a go-ahead to use the character of Angel for a BtVS finale, I'm betting (JMO, mind you) JOSS ALREADY ASKED IF HE COULD DO IT. That means the odds of Angel actually popping up in episode 7.22 have jumped from virtually nil to a possible 2-to-1.

So what would happen if Angel showed up during the final apocalyp-ty showdown with the First Evil? Well...

Possibility #1: He sees Buffy with Spike, flips out, gets talked down...flips out some more, gets talked down again, then realizes that Buffy's got something special with Spike and gallantly tells her to stop holding on to the image of their "perfect love" so she can get on with her life. Gamely helps the Scoobs kick evil's ass, and goes home to L.A., heartbroken.

Possibility #2: Angel sees Buffy is attracted to Spike, but waffling about her feelings, unable to move forward. Like (1), Angel then realizes she's holding on to the memory of their romance, and it's stifling her emotionally. He tells her he wants to be with Cordy, forcing Buffy to let go of the possibility of a future together. Gamely helps the Scoobs kick evil's ass, and goes home to L.A., heartbroken.

Possibility #3: Seeing Buffy and Angel together again, Spike, feeling unworthy of Buffy's love (and deciding he'd rather be dust than watch her kiss that poofter with the nancy boy hair gel) sacrifices himself to save Buffy and the Scoobs. Angel's about to head home to L.A., but finds out his series has been cancelled. TPTB shanshu him, and Buffy and Liam live happily ever after.

Possibility #4: After seven years of showing absolutely no interest, Buffy decides she loves Xander. Spike and Angel immediately team up with the First Evil and slaughter the entire cast. (Ah, a happy ending...)
[> [> What if the character is not Angel but Wesley -- Dochawk, 14:42:18 01/21/03 Tue

Wesley as a former watcher has much more to do with the current BTVS storyline than Angel does. This year is all about watchers/slayers and their places in the good/evil debate (along with Spike). Wes has muchmore to do with this than Angel.

Angel remembers Buffy as "my last girlfriend who sent me to hell for 100 years". That strongly suggests he's way past over her. (Now can you imagine, he just saw Cordy sleep with his son, then he finds out that Buffy slept with Spike! if he cares for Buffy still it would be enough to drive him to stake himself).

On top of this the Angel finale is scheduled to be the day after the Buffy finale, he's just going to slip out to Sunnydale for a day while apoclypse is pending in LA? I just think this was an empty gesture by Jordan Levin.
[> [> [> Um, we do have a shape-shifting entity on the show. -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:33:39 01/21/03 Tue

Anyone else see the First Evil becoming Angel (or Angelus) during its final confrontation with Buffy?
[> [> LOL - other possibilities -- shadowkat, 14:54:47 01/21/03 Tue


Possibility #4: After seven years of showing absolutely no interest, Buffy decides she loves Xander. Spike and Angel immediately team up with the First Evil and slaughter the entire cast. (Ah, a happy ending...)

LOL! Ohhh that would be funny. Then we could have the best spin-off with Angel, Spike and Dru and maybe a reincarnated Darla with Wes and Lilah...pipe dream I know.

Here's a possibility:
Angel sees Spike - goes nuts b/c Spike has a soul. Interrogates Spike on why did this. Finds out. Blasts him for being a nit. Then admits he and Darla had a kid. This causes great concern for Spike and Buffy - who wonder, wait, what if? They have pow-wow on the impossibilities of the Buffyverse/Whedonverse - ie: you're not supposed to get a soul and you're not supposed to have a kid with a vampire and no wonder the world is about to end.

Now we either have -
1. They all fight amongst themselves on who should save the world and voila the world ends in the process.
2. They all play martyr and both series are cancelled
3. They go their separate ways
4. Spike gets Shanshued. Angel goes back to La. Buffy dies.
5. Spike and Angel shanshue and go back to La together to start the Spike/Angel demon hunting group. And spend first few episodes tracking down Dru to stake her.
6. No one shanshues, Spike leaves SunnyDale with Angel and slash fiction people go nuts.
7. Spike and Buffy end up together. Angel ends up with his family in La. Everyone is happy.
8. No one ends up together. Angel is staked. Spike shanshues. Buffy goes off to be a watcher.
9. Spike and Angel kill each other
10. Angel comes back long enough to say goodbye to Buffy. And sees no one else (They do this I'm throwing stuff at the screen and swearing off all things Joss, just too cruel, like the dang Forever scene. Please - I could care less about another B/A goodbye scene.)
11. Angelus shows up in Sunnydale and asks Spike how he can go get an uncursed Soul - Spike gives him directions to Lurkees cave. We follow Angelus there and see a repeat of last years trials.
12. Angelus shows up and finds a way to turn Buffy into a vampire while Spike saves the day and turns human, Buffy vamps Spike and Dawn and we have Fanged Four two

I can go on....;-)SK
[> [> [> Re: LOL -you forgot about this -- bas, 20:07:08 01/21/03 Tue

I really like possibility # 4 from cji.

Now here is another.

Angel shows up in Sunnydale after a desperate phone call from spike incoherently babbling something crazy about Buffy.

He barges into slayer central and finds Willow making out with Kennedy. Andrew is panting after Warren/First. Disgusted, he stomps down to the basement and finds Buffy and Faith in a very suggestive training session.

"Is everybody gay in this town"?

He goes back to L.A. deciding that Lorne is the one most suited to him.
[> That would be me. -- Masq, 14:34:27 01/21/03 Tue

And don't tell me to get over it because "change is part of life and people must move on." There have been plenty of romances that have grown and changed with time and lasted over fifty years or more in real life.

That, and we must go with the relationship on the show that truly spoke to us and moved us. Spuffy never did this to me. At all.
[> [> Ditto, and ditto again. -- Scroll, 20:40:54 01/21/03 Tue

Though I realise it's a pipe dream and will never, ever happen. But that's what fanfic is for.
[> I was going to say Heck Yeah until I realized A was for Angel and not Anya! :) -- neaux, 14:56:58 01/21/03 Tue

[> After a fashion -- Apophis, 15:19:59 01/21/03 Tue

Beneath my manly exterior, I'm a romantic at heart. I always liked the B/A forbidden love thing and always wanted to see it work out (same thing with Xander and Cordelia). Despite that, I've come to terms with the fact that it's probably not going to happen, at least not as long as the shows are airing. Even if Angel shows up in the BtVS finale, he's still got his own show which, to my knowledge, isn't ending this year. Buffy won't go to his show, since the whole reason BtVS is ending is that SMG wants out (there are other factors, I'm sure, but that's the main one). If both Buffy and Angel manage to survive their respective final episodes, perhaps ME could suggest that they'll be together in amorphous void of non-canon.

P.S.- Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but I REALLY hated Spuffy.
[> [> Well - Stranger things have happened. True romantic here - B/A still has a chance. -- Briar, 17:25:22 01/21/03 Tue

There is always the possibility as long as Buffy and Angel are both still alive.

Cordy and Angel are just not realistic, unless they change the entire backstory of Angel's Romanian Gypsy Curse, or come up with some (and this would be hard for me to believe. Hello? What? Will reading Ancient Romanian for Dummies?) way to say Willow changed the curse so the "happiness clause" is gone. But that doesn't mean that Buffy might not be able to find a loophole with time. If Spike can get a soul, Angel could turn himself human. And for some reason I can't see ME doing it for Cordy/Angel where they might just do it for Buffy/Angel if they were feeling completely charitable toward allowing happiness to happen.

Who knows? Maybe Joss or Marti or someone will find that they are truly in love in their RL relationship and decide that the viewers could appreciate a little happiness for a change from constant pain and strum ern'drung as well.*L

I won't hold my breath - but Spuffy never has worked for me and someone should finally be able to end up with their first love.

(Uhmmm - thinking about a friend here... who after being ripped apart from his true love is finally working toward a reunion with her 20 years that parting. And they are too cute!~sigh~)
[> No, I think because I came in last season -- Anneth, 17:22:43 01/21/03 Tue

Having not been a viewer back in the B/A days, I felt emotionally distant from their relationship when first watching it in reruns. Part of that may have been that I knew that it was doomed (maybe an interesting semi-OT thread lies here: if you started watching Buffy after the first season, what did you know about the show beforehand and how did it affect your veiwing?) and part of it may just be the way I react to relationships as portrayed by pop-culture (suspiciously). The B/A rel'n always struck me as somewhat absurd, not so much for her but for him. The age difference always kind of stuck in my craw. I understand that he was vamped at a "tender" age, but at the same time, he's been around an awful long time and is a very emotionally mature character. So why would he go for it, fall for her?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the B/A rel'n was too idealized for my tastes and so I found it hard to care about, but again that may be partially or mostly because I knew it was doomed to end.

Another reason, however, that I may have felt (and still feel) emotionally distant from the B/A rel'n is that the first Buffy ep I watched was Flooded (S6). Coming into the series without any knowledge of Spike or his history, I was immediatly attracted to the chemistry and obviously burgeoning relationship between the two characters. Catching up on the B/A rel'n in reruns in the following months, I didn't feel any comperable chemistry. What B/A had seemed so two-dimensional to me, in light of the S/B history. Of course I realize, much of that complexity comes from having many seasons where the two were enemies or at least antagonistic; the two characters were developed externally to each other, in a sense, whereas A and B were initially thought up together, and developed together. It limited their relationship.

Well, that's my two cents, anyway. I'm not a huge Spuffy shipper; I don't think the characters are ready yet, and may not ever be. But I think I find the idea of a possible relationship more interesting than that of a doomed one.
[> Re: This might make you feel better: Straight from the horses mouth -- bas, 19:50:37 01/21/03 Tue

From the current issue of "BtVS and Angel" magazine, I quote from David Boreanaz,

"For Angel, the love of his life is definetely Buffy, but he is trying to become human now."

Then more stuff ending in "If the characters were to get together again it would be an interesting mix given their character developments. But the underlying love would still be there. Its very strong, and you can't take that away." (David Boreanaz interview in Feb 2003 issue)
[> [> Thanks Bas, I will look out for that interview. -- JulieB, 22:10:25 01/21/03 Tue

How would Xander fit on Angel? (speculation on recent rumor) -- The Last Jack, 16:07:40 01/21/03 Tue

I was just over at scifi.com, and they reported that of all the character on Buffy, Xander would be the most likely to crossover. I found this kind of strange, as the actor himself said a few years back that Xander was the least likely to do a crossover with Angel, considering the relationship of the characters. I too can't really see Xander over at Angel, but I was wondering what you all thought? Could Xander fit in over there, and how do you think he would?

Jack
[> I think I know why. -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:47:05 01/21/03 Tue

It's because he's a regular joe. With Dawn you have the Key backstory, Anya the vengeance demon backstory, and Willow the dark-magic addiction backstory. These would all lead to lots of exposition being done on Angel, which might perhaps confuse those who stopped watching BtVS but kept watching its spin-off. With Xander, you still have the "knew Angel's ex-love of his life" thing to fill in, but other than that he doesn't require much exposition. That's why I also think he's the most likely to become a supporting character on a new spinoff, if one is made.
[> [> Re: I think I know why. -- *Q*, 22:06:22 01/21/03 Tue

Xander could offer plenty...

A reunion in love with Cordelia (yay!)

and...

Some serious anti-chemistry with Angel, which would eventually lead to respect, and eventually a deep frindship bond of love.

that's what I think.
[> [> [> Re: I think I know why. -- amber, 01:35:57 01/22/03 Wed

Also, Whedon likes to mix characters who don't get along. Remember the Buffy S3 personalities of Angel, Cordellia and Wesley? Back then nobody could believe that Cordy of all people was joining Angel on the new show, because the two of them just didn't have much in common (though it was always funny when they had a scene together.)

It would be interesting to see Xander reunited with these people from his past, kind of like a bizarre high school reunion.
Recurring cast member chemistry (Buffy S7 spoilers) -- KKC, 16:16:34 01/21/03 Tue

Who are the new potential Slayers now? We lost Eve, but remaining are Vi (Vai?), Rona, Molly, Kennedy, and one more to be introduced tonight. Is it just me or do these actors have more than just a little bit of chemistry together? The actors work so well together on screen, it got me to thinking whether or not a show built on the potential Slayer team could work as a spin-off.

So far, we've got all the classic crime-fighting team show roles filled. Kennedy is the oldest and most experienced, and definitely fits the leader profile. Rona is down-to-earth and practical, most likely to tough it out and cut to the heart of a conflict. Vi is stereotypically quirky and tentative, which would likely make her the research brains. Molly is, distressingly, the cute one with no discernable role except to look pretty.

Could these characters carry a show on their own? Just as importantly, could these *actors* carry a show on their own? It would be a shame if this plot point spun off into a new show, only to fall into the same black hole that Birds of Prey did.

Side thought that can't be worked into the flow... Could there still be more than one Slayer at the end of this season? Could there be a whole gaggle of them? Is that why the First is so worried?

-KKC, who wonders what 'Vi' is supposed to be short for. Unless it's the Roman numeral six, which would suggest that 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and 'Blossom' occur in the same universe. :)
[> Violet. -- Solitude1056, 18:10:29 01/21/03 Tue

[> Potential Slayers (spoilers for 7.9) -- Scroll, 19:12:41 01/21/03 Tue

Though one thing I immediately noticed was the extreme lack of Chloe, the latina proto-slayer. I'll assume the actress wasn't available for the ep, though I would've liked some explanation for her absence. Unless it was explained and I just missed it...

But I gotta give myself a pat on the back -- I knew Amanda was a potential! Even way back in "Help", I had an inkling that she had the Slayer gene. She was too violent, isolated, and quirky not to be a reflection of Buffy herself. Lovely how she handled herself with the vamp tonight, and I loved Dawn's passing-of-the-crown speech.

I would love a spin-off about Slayers, with more than one, or at least a group of potentials and how they deal with the mythos surrounding being the Chosen One.

And I really, really loved Xander in this ep. He just gave us that wonderful human perspective on what it's like to be the Everyman, the one who never gets the spot-light. Made me appreciate what he did in "Grave" so much more.

I couldn't help laughing at Andrew's analysis of Slayer-as-woman metaphor. Hello, metanarration!
[> Viola -- Vickie, 22:24:06 01/21/03 Tue

Reports are coming in now... fan-like shrieks heard at approximately 8:34 EST. News at eleven. -- Solitude1056, 18:19:31 01/21/03 Tue

That is, when an old kitten-eating friend appeared at the halfway point... followed by a particular lovely rear head shot. I nominate that single shot as strong competition to my other favorite unexpected image, from Tabula Rasa when the entire group opens the front door, sees the vampires, screams, and slams the door again.
[> Unexpected;yes.Original;no. -- AurraSing, 19:06:21 01/21/03 Tue

While it was great to see Clem again,the "rear" scene ripped off from 'Beetlejuice' was a tad derivative for my taste...perhaps it does not help that I'll always wonder what the *front* view would have been like!
[> [> Ode to Clem -- Arethusa, 19:13:41 01/21/03 Tue

"C" is for is for the culinary advice you give.

"L" is for the love you spread no matter where you live.

"E" is for the empathy you show to the neglected.

"M" is for the memory of you scaring the girls protected.

Yeaahhh, Clem!
[> [> [> LOL -- Alison, 19:20:08 01/21/03 Tue

hehe...I love Clem.
[> [> [> OMG -- Arethusa, 20:02:49 01/21/03 Tue

I am so sorry, everyone! I spoiled in the subject line. Aaack! Sorry!
[> [> Re: Unexpected;yes.Original;no. -- M, 19:20:07 01/21/03 Tue

Actually I thought of Men in Black.
[> [> Sometimes an homage is just an homage. -- Solitude1056, 19:31:42 01/21/03 Tue

Since Beetlejuice is, at least by my standards, one of the foremost movies with a refreshingly skewed perspective on the usual hollywood morality, and has held up remarkably well considering it's now what, ten, twelve years since it first came out? If there were anyone Joss might want to emulate, it'd be that long-standing, still funny, still relevant kind of entertainment. He's done it with other shots, like the now-famous Fight On Top of An RV And See If Anyone Gets The Stagecoach Reference homage. It may be derivative, but when it's an homage, that's the point!
[> [> [> *And it keeps getting funnier ***every time I see it!!*** -- OnM, 20:33:32 01/21/03 Tue

Are we forgetting something? (mild spoilage for 1/21 episode) -- RichardX1, 18:21:23 01/21/03 Tue

You've been warned...

On tonight's episode, it was mentioned at least twice that the next Slayer would be Called upon Buffy's death.

HELLO!? Didn't Joss specifically state during the 2001 interval between seasons (right after Buffy sacrificed herself to seal that dimensional rift) that Buffy had already activated a Slayer once through dying and couldn't do it again?

And yes, I know the folks within the Slayerverse may not be privy to the Creator's notes, but they would have at least noticed the lack of a third Slayer (after Buffy and Faith).

I know this might have diminished the seriousness of Buffy's lessons, as the girls are getting to know someone whom they think will have to perish before one of them inherits her Gift; but it would have made Dawn's emotional issues at tonight's midpoint at least a little less heavy.

Oh, and AOL has once again proven itself to be the internet manifestation of the First.
[> Maybe Buffy doesn't want to bring up the whole Slayer gone psycho-killer thing. -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:40:00 01/21/03 Tue

Cause that might put ideas into some of their heads (I'm looking at you, Kennedy).
[> Buffy doesn't know that (spoilers 7.9) -- Scroll, 19:17:39 01/21/03 Tue

From what Buffy said to Giles in "Grave", I suspect she doesn't even realise the Slayer line no longer flows from her. She said to Giles in the Magic Box training room that she'd been dead, she'd been finished. Someone else would've taken her place. So she didn't know why she had been brought back (the cosmic reason, not the Willow reason). I took this to mean she didn't know that her dying wouldn't activate another Slayer.

But for all we know, Joss has changed his mind. Maybe Buffy's death will activate the next Slayer. We'll just have to wait and see. Personally, I'd love for Faith to show up, give Buffy a funny look and say, "Um, B, you do know you're not the real Slayer, right?"
[> [> shameless formalism re: continuity troubles (*spoilers for Potential) -- darvangi, 19:55:32 01/21/03 Tue

I agree with Scroll and others who maintain that Buffy and the others are not aware of whether or not the Slayer line flows through her. I think that there is an elemental fault in criticism that places as much stock, if not more, in what is said in interviews as what is shown on the screen, because it displaces the importance of the whole collaborative process of the series. Pardon me ahead of time if this subject has been talked to death already here, but I'd like to state my views anyway.

After looking through the transcript for Bargaining I found that there is no mention by the scoobies of whether or not a new slayer will be called because of Buffy's death. They do not say one will or won't be called and they don't mention Faith either. I do not think it is fair to judge the mythology of the series and the rules of the Buffyverse by what the writers and producers say in interviews - the analysis of the series as a whole should be made from what is shown on screen. The final edited product is what matters most. Writers don't have a chance to edit or carefully review an off-the-cuff remark to an interviewer the way they are able to do so with the script and the whole filming process.

I mention the whole process because the act of creation extends to the filming set and to the editing room; it does not stop with the shooting script. Some people critique the show in a manner that lends more credence to the shooting script than to the final product, which is something I consider to be unreasonable. If the intent is to review the work of an individual writer for the show, then of course there is no problem with deeply examining the shooting script. But I maintain that it is a mistake to judge the entire series or even a single episode by any criteria other than what is decided on by the collaboration between the writers and producers (and other crew members) and displayed in the final broadcast. Because of the creative hierarchy, with Joss and Marti at the top, the product of the collaboration is of utmost importance.

Being no great Buffy expert, I admit that it is entirely possible that there was some other mention in an episode (other that Bargaining) about whether or not a new slayer would be called in the event of Buffy's death in the post-Faith period. If so, then I too will be upset about the break in continuity. But my main point is that an analysis based solely on the material in the final broadcasts is what is needed for the purpose of finding cracks in the shell of the Buffyverse.

Yes, I am a unapoligetic formalist. My family lives in shame.

------------

On another note, I would like to say that I really enjoyed many parts in Potential. The story of Dawn becoming a potential then having to abdicate was very intriguing, and I didn't see the switch coming at all. Xander's talk with her at the end about living without superpowers was genuinely touching and gave them both a chance to flex their acting muscles.

I was a little annoyed by the return of Buffy-Spike angst, though. That was a nasty flashback to the stagnation of that plot element in Season 6. And Andrew is really starting to feel like dead weight. Give him something to do or let him go, I say. Otherwise, it was a pretty decent ep.
[> [> [> Re: shameless formalism re: continuity troubles (*spoilers for Potential) -- gds, 20:14:15 01/21/03 Tue

I have pondered this issue and what little we know about the info the big eyeball provided. Perhaps this is the meaning of "the mystical forces surrounding the chosen one have been irrevocably altered" recently message. As part of Buffy's resurrection (which remember was specicified as "the warrior of the people" not just Buffy) may have also reinstated her slayer linage. This reminds me of a Star Trek NG episode where they are a bit careless with telling the holodeck what kind of opponent to create and the compter creates a supernormal holodeck figure that that is not logically bound to the confines of the program.
(see http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~werdna/sttng/synopsis/elementary.syn.html for brief summary)
[> [> [> Re: shameless formalism re: continuity troubles (*spoilers for Potential) -- maddog, 07:27:50 01/22/03 Wed

I was waiting for someone to post on the Xander portion. It's easy to write and develop characters with great power doing battle. Buffy, Spike, WIllow, Anya, etc....they all have their own power. Most of the time it's fairly predictable to know what they'll do to conquer any given situation(how they carry out the usage of that power however is what makes it fun to watch). The mere mortals are different. That's why Xander's character has always been the most interesting. He goes out....he fights these incredibly strong demons with nothing more than a bit of unplanned military training....he gets told to stay out of it half the time...they have to save him the other half. ANd yet through it all he's the most loyal, the most caring, and the most relatable character there. To keep a character like that believable, useful, and not annoyed about their place in life is truly a genius of writing. And he and Dawn make a great team as the regular people...in fact, it makes them feel not so regular.

p.s. I saw the Dawn switcheroo thing coming a mile away. She may be part of the gang, but remember she still comes from a mystical ball of energy. Not likely to be slayers. And supposing she was Buffy's real sister, the last time I checked lineage had nothing to do with DNA.
[> Buffy's forgetting. Whedon is not... (more spoilage for tonight's ep) -- ZachsMind, 19:35:23 01/21/03 Tue

I submit for your consideration the following "Giles Of Course Moment" from the episode What's My Line.

Willow: (confused) Hi, guys. W-what's goin' on? (goes to sit across from Buffy)
Buffy: Apparently there's been a really big mix-up.
Giles: Uh, it seems somehow that, uh, another Slayer has been sent to Sunnydale.
Willow: Is that even possible? I mean, two Slayers at the same time?
Giles: Not to my knowledge. Um, th-the new Slayer is only called after the previous Slayer has died. Uh... (realizes) Oh, good Lord! You were dead, Buffy.
Buffy: I was only gone for a minute.
Giles: Clearly it doesn't matter how long you were gone. You were physically dead! Thus causing the activation of the, the next Slayer. (nods toward Kendra)
Kendra: She died?
Buffy: Just a little.
Giles: She drowned, but she was revived.
Willow: So there really are two of them!
Giles: It would seem so. This is completely unprecedented! I'm quite flummoxed. (sits)
Buffy: What's the flum? It's a mistake, she isn't supposed to be here, she goes home! (to Kendra) Look, no offense, I really don't mean this personally, but I'm not dead, and frankly having you around creeps me out just a little bit.

Now don't take this wrong. I am not insinuating with my following explanation that Buffy is incompetent. The potentials are in very good hands. Who else but Buffy knows what it's like enough to train them and help them accept the situation they are in?

Still, to be honest, Buffy's out of her league when it comes to understanding the hows and whys of what makes her what she is, and understanding how it works, well to be frank even Giles and the Watcher's Council never fully understood it. With the three deaths & resurrections of Buffy, coupled with Faith's rather rogue-like, near insane and definitely sociopathic status, the Slayer Chosen Line is in a place unprecedented. Buffy is not in a place mentally or rationally to even WANT to understand the details, much less attempt to figure it out.

The following is from Conversations With Dead People, season seven:

HOLDEN: So, all that time, you were a slayer?
BUFFY: The.
HOLDEN: "The", like as in "the only one"?
BUFFY: (shrugs) Pretty much.

This is pretty much a lie. Buffy knows about Faith, but she's been out of the picture for so long, Buffy assumes she's not in the picture at all. Faith certainly hasn't acted like a Slayer. From Buffy's perspective, Faith gave up her rights to the title when she embraced The Mayor and became a part of the enemy. However, from the objective perspective of The Slayer Line, Faith's unable to remove herself from it, no matter what she does short of dying.

I still believe it's not until the death of Faith that a new Slayer will be called. Buffy doesn't believe this though. Buffy assumes herself to be THE Slayer, and all this complex balderdash about how the Slayer Line actually works is irrelevant to her, because she doesn't see that it's the Chosen Line which makes one a Slayer. It's one's actions and one's resolve to fight the good fight that matters. Technically, Buffy hasn't really been THE Slayer since the end of season one, but she feels she's proven that to be irrelevant. She's done the time. She's put in the effort. She deserves the title and so she embraces it although it's not hers to have.

In the final scene of tonight's episode, Xander noticed that without hesitation, Dawn passed the torch to Amanda the second she realized that the mantle was not hers to keep. Buffy & Dawn are made out of the same stuff. Dawn is from Buffy's blood, but Buffy does have a lot to learn from her little sister. Buffy would not and WILL not do that when it comes time for her to pass the crown to Faith or to someone else. Dawn has proven that it is within Buffy to do so, but despite the fact Buffy didn't want this, at the same time she has gotten to a place now where she believes she deserves it. Who deserves it more than she?

Tangentically, tonight Whedon has established a new element to The Slayer Line. Even though a Slayer In Training is not the true Slayer, she does have a weak connection to that power. She feels that "charge" when in battle with a vampire. Provided she places confidence in herself and trusts her instincts, she is just a little bit more resourceful than the average person. Though not a true Slayer, each of the SITs have Slayer Potential, which they can draw upon in times of stress. That's a new and notable addition to Whedon's explanation of how The Slayer Line works. However, I do not see that it disturbs anything that has been explained before. Again, this is new territory. We've not been told of any time prior to this where any group of people have actively hunted down potential Slayers. So this is all very new territory, and it's going to naturally bring about new discoveries about how things work.

It is also possible that we'll learn it was inadvertently the actions of the Council which has led to the Harbingers ability to track and hunt down SITs. Because prior to now, only the Council knew how to track Potentials. And now the Council is no more. Obviously, since a bomb had been planted inside the Council's main HQ, that the Council's questionable security had been compromised. It was attacked by the agents of The First from within.
[> [> Re: Depends on one's definition of 'The Slayer' -- bas, 20:59:57 01/21/03 Tue

To me the Definition of "The Slayer" would be the one currently engaged in the act of slaying. The one putting herself on the line each and every day in the service of Mankind.

HOLDEN: So, all that time, you were a slayer?
BUFFY: The.
HOLDEN: "The", like as in "the only one"?
BUFFY: (shrugs) Pretty much.

Buffy is not lying. "Pretty much" is about the truth. Faith is currently in no position to slay. She is currently on the benches, so that leaves Buffy "pretty much" the slayer at the moment. Just wait until Faith returns to Sunnydale, I think you will find Buffy introducing her as "THE other slayer', and there will be no passing of the crown as Faith is already a sister Slayer. Buffy's problem with Faith is not about who is the "Real" Slayer, but given free will, Faith chose to make use of her considerable skill against humanity. Buffy is the defender of humanity. She is the Shepherd and humanity, her flock.

Now I loved the Buffy-Faith dynamics and can't wait for ED to return and play out this complex and dynamic relationship. Counting the weeks here.

And IMHO, I think undersestimate Buffy's understanding of what being a slayer is all about. She has been doing it for seven years and has died twice in the service of a greater good. I would listen to Xander in Act 3 when he tells Willow that Buffy would not be happy about Dawn being a Potential.

Also, I think this season is meant to displace all our preconceptions about Chosen, The Chosen, The not so Chosen. Its going to turn the mythology upside down and give us a fresh look at the "Potential" of each and every player who chooses to take up arms suited to their individual talents and fight the good fight. In the end I think this is what Buffy will teach us this. That the "Potential" for good and "Potential" for evil lies within all beings. That each and every being has a destiny. The destiny to find the divine "Potential", the godhead within ourselves and choose to use it wisely.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you"
[> [> [> Re: Depends on one's definition of 'The Slayer' -- Scroll, 21:10:09 01/21/03 Tue

Excellent post, much to agree with... I admit, I'm of the opinion that Buffy isn't the real Slayer -- "real" meaning not the Slayer whose death will activate the next Slayer. That being said, I agree that Buffy has been the Real Slayer in ways Faith never managed to be since throwing in with the Mayor (though we'll see how she's doing when she gets out of prison).

Also can't wait to see what Joss throws at us regarding the mythology of the Slayer, the Chosen Line, etc. Something important is happening and I'm getting very excited :)
[> [> [> (Far too) well-known casting spoiler above -- d'Herblay, 21:11:53 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> Big Time spoiler above -- Sergio, 22:05:46 01/21/03 Tue

Faith's appearance though well known, is still a pretty big spoiler to those who want to remain spoil free (though it is announced on Angel that Faith is going to Sunnydale to help Buffy or so it is said)
[> [> Re: Buffy's forgetting. Whedon is not... (more spoilage for tonight's ep) -- shadowkat, 21:38:06 01/21/03 Tue

I still believe it's not until the death of Faith that a new Slayer will be called. Buffy doesn't believe this though. Buffy assumes herself to be THE Slayer, and all this complex balderdash about how the Slayer Line actually works is irrelevant to her, because she doesn't see that it's the Chosen Line which makes one a Slayer. It's one's actions and one's resolve to fight the good fight that matters. Technically, Buffy hasn't really been THE Slayer since the end of season one, but she feels she's proven that to be irrelevant. She's done the time. She's put in the effort. She deserves the title and so she embraces it although it's not hers to have.

In the final scene of tonight's episode, Xander noticed that without hesitation, Dawn passed the torch to Amanda the second she realized that the mantle was not hers to keep. Buffy & Dawn are made out of the same stuff. Dawn is from Buffy's blood, but Buffy does have a lot to learn from her little sister. Buffy would not and WILL not do that when it comes time for her to pass the crown to Faith or to someone else. Dawn has proven that it is within Buffy to do so, but despite the fact Buffy didn't want this, at the same time she has gotten to a place now where she believes she deserves it. Who deserves it more than she?

This echoes manwitch and my theories above. Buffy is becoming far too arrogant. All the annoying lectures in the episode. How she is so confident as slayer and so unconfident as counselor? The schzoid personality remark? Which links back to Normal Again and also to Selfless where Spike literally sees two Buffy's, one in black (the slayer) and one in white (Buffy). He loves both, but is often better equipped to deal with Buffy. The FE has been playing both.

I think that's how Buffy disrupted the line - she refused to give up the mantle way back in Season 2. Of course she considered doing it with Faith - but Faith turned evil on her. But something tells me...that may be the choice she is presented with at the end of this year. We've already seen the other characters presented with these choices - Willow choosing to scale back on her power, wanting to get rid of it - power she got in Season 2, Anya choosing to give up the immortality and power of the vengeance demon, Spike choosing the pain of the soul...each choice has reconnected them with humanity. Will Buffy have to make similar choice?

Also agree on Amanda - of the potentials - she's the one who felt the spark.

Oh OM noticed something nifty about Dawn - maybe Willow's locator spell was more ambiguous then we thought? Maybe both Dawn and Amanda are slated to change in some way.

At any rate - i tend to agree - I don't think the writers have forgotten about Faith being the holder of the Slayer line, the characters have. To Buffy - she's THE Slayer not Faith. Buffy is wrong - hence the reason the FE made it's move, because now it has a chance to get to Buffy. Buffy's weakeness is her unwillingness to do what Dawn did with Amanda - to let go of the title, of being the chosen one.
To let go of the power.
[> [> The question is, 'Why is Buffy forgetting?' -- CW, 05:19:18 01/22/03 Wed

Unfortunately, ME established an escape clause from logic in season 5 which reads, "If Buffy says it in all seriousness (ie. Our blood is the same) it must be true." One could say in all honesty that if every time one particular slayer's breathing stopped for a few moments a new slayer was called (ala Buffy's death #1.) the world might well be crawling with slayers within a few generations. It makes sense to us that could only happen once, and then that part of the slayer package would move on to the next girl. It made sense to Joss as has been pointed out. But, as we all know Joss has been busy with other projects. And Marti Noxon isn't the stickler for logic and continuity that Joss at least once was.

If it was me I'd have to fall back on the theory that OnM had months ago that what we're seeing isn't exactly the same Sunnydale we remember, but a parallel one where what 'we know' doesn't quite apply. But, I'm not exactly happy with that because it indicates that nothing we've learned over the past six seaxons would necessarily mean a damn thing this season. One way or the other ME despite producing a number of interesting stories this year has gotten themselves on shaky ground on all fronts (Firefly, Angel and Buffy). I still think Buffy is worth watching, but I know other people (even here) are beginning to disagree with me on that.
[> [> [> Buffy (subconsciously) feels Faith is unworthy of the mantle. (7.12 spoilers; casting spoiler) -- cjl, 10:58:18 01/22/03 Wed

Buffy, with her ever-present superiority complex, is infusing her own sense of morality into the metaphysical mechanics of Slayer succession. As ZM said above, she doesn't feel Faith deserves the title, so she's mentally shut Faith out of the process altogether.

Long before Faith arrives to set her straight, though, Giles should rap the Buffster soundly on the nose and remind her of the facts.
[> [> [> [> I don't think Buffy wants to bring up how a Slayer turned evil . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:58:45 01/22/03 Wed

She has to train the proto-Slayers to believe in the cause they fight for, and that might be impaired by learning too soon of the Vampire Slayer/Psycho Killer thing. Not mentioning the other Slayer out there is her way of avoiding discussing Faith at all with the impressionable proto-Slayers.
[> [> [> [> she can't forget what she never knew!! -- anom, 23:08:42 01/22/03 Wed

"Giles should rap the Buffster soundly on the nose and remind her of the facts."

He doesn't know either! If he did, he'd've said something when Buffy said there'd be a new Slayer (because of her 2nd death) in the workout room in Grave. I'm getting tired of everyone getting on Buffy's case for this when she has no reason to know any different. I don't think it has anything to do w/her opinion of Faith--Buffy's too pragmatic to think that what Faith has done would affect whether her death can call the next Slayer. She's never said anything to indicate she thinks Faith isn't a Slayer. Besides, Buffy's going a lot easier on her since she turned herself in.

Buffy probably just assumes both her death & Faith's will call new Slayers, & from now on there'll be 2. I don't think there's any contradiction between this & what ME has said about the line continuing through Faith--it's known outside the Buffyverse but not in it. And why would the characters know? It had never happened before.
[> [> not quite new... (minor Fray spoiler) -- tim, 11:27:54 01/22/03 Wed

"Tangentically, tonight Whedon has established a new element to The Slayer Line. Even though a Slayer In Training is not the true Slayer, she does have a weak connection to that power. She feels that "charge" when in battle with a vampire. Provided she places confidence in herself and trusts her instincts, she is just a little bit more resourceful than the average person. Though not a true Slayer, each of the SITs have Slayer Potential, which they can draw upon in times of stress. That's a new and notable addition to Whedon's explanation of how The Slayer Line works. However, I do not see that it disturbs anything that has been explained before. Again, this is new territory. We've not been told of any time prior to this where any group of people have actively hunted down potential Slayers. So this is all very new territory, and it's going to naturally bring about new discoveries about how things work."

This has come up in the Fray comics, which I treat as canon because 1) Joss writes them, and 2) they're far enough out of Buffy's time as to not affect the TV plots in any way. When Melaka is confronted by her Slayer-ness, she protests that she's not a supernatural warrior; she's "just always been good at stuff." Even when she was a Potential, then, she had some extra spark. FWIW. :o)

--th

PS: Did Fray #7 ever come out? I'm getting antsy.
[> [> [> Don't expect to see Fray #7 before the series/season end this year. -- Rufus, 22:09:01 01/22/03 Wed

[> Re: Are we forgetting something? (mild spoilage for 1/21 episode) -- CW, 19:36:14 01/21/03 Tue

That's not the only continuity slip up this episode. Spike hurt one of the potenial slayers (don't ask me to remember all their names) during the training and didn't get so much as a blip from his chip.

What's the old saying? When Joss is away the writers slack off? Maybe, maybe not. I think Rebecca Rand Kirschner is a very good writer, and these are pretty sloppy mistakes. Unless all this, like the mystery around Giles is just supposed to mislead us. I for one would like to remind ME that I quit watching Angel recently, because I was sick and tired of getting jerked around.
[> [> Re: Are we forgetting something? (mild spoilage for 1/21 episode) -- parakeet, 20:36:25 01/21/03 Tue

Was it a slip? Spike might not have meant to hurt her, and my understanding of the chip is that it activates when he deliberately tries to hurt someone. I'm trying to remember an incident where it fired without there having been any intention on his part and can't think of one. Anybody? Besides, this particular SIT is very whiny; was she really hurt?
[> [> Re: Are we forgetting something? This can be explained -- bas, 21:08:40 01/21/03 Tue

---That's not the only continuity slip up this episode. Spike hurt one of the potenial slayers (don't ask me to remember all their names) during the training and didn't get so much as a blip from his chip.---

In "Fool for Love", It was established that if there was no "intent" to hurt someone, then the Chip does not activate. I think its clear that Spike was not intentionally hurting anyone. He's just helping to train the potentials, so the chip doesn't fire.

Just my theory :)

I'm not sure why the writers are suddenly contradicting themselves about slayer activation, but I'm sure it will be addressed and there's a reason. I doubt something this significant is merely sloppy writing.
[> [> [> Re: Are we forgetting something? This can be explained -- CW, 06:50:45 01/22/03 Wed

It doesn't make much sense to argue over Spike's motivations one way or the other, I agree. But, I wrestled in high school and I've had someone in an armlock. I knew if I pulled on it, the person would certainly be in some discomfort, if not pain. The borderline between discomfort and pain isn't something one can judge for someone else. I have to believe Spike understood that as well when he pulled on the girl's arm.
[> [> Re: Are we forgetting something? (mild spoilage for 1/21 episode) -- maddog, 11:29:56 01/22/03 Wed

Remember, it's intent. Remember when he pointed the fake gun at Xander? Chip went off. The Slayerette was being a little worriesome because he's a vampire. He never actually hurt or attempted to hurt her.
[> The show is canon, NOT interviews. -- *Q*, 22:13:26 01/21/03 Tue

Joss has also said that Tara wasn't going anywhere, and look what happened! Don't rely on interviews. Until it is supported in the show, it is not canon. Joss can always change his mind until he puts it in the show, and even then he can sometimes find wriggle room (for God's sake, we all heard Spike call Angel his sire, and when Joss changed his mind about that, he pulled the ol' 'depends on your definition of...' routine!)

Plus, Kendra was around half a year before they met her, Faith a while too. A new Slayer could be in the tribal depths of the third world, and they may NEVER know!

That being said, with all of the "coven's" recent locatings, I doubt there is another slayer. Buffy probably doesn't know the lineage. How could she. 2 slayers was UNPRECEDENTED, so anything surrounding that is theirs to find out through experimentation.
[> Re: Are we forgetting something? (mild spoilage for 1/21 episode) -- maddog, 06:56:23 01/22/03 Wed

That's because we're not dealing with the all knowing here. Anyone that's watched all the shows knows the line follows Faith. But the characters don't. And that's what we have to remember. We're seeing things from the point of view of the characters. However.....

remember, Joss isn't always compteltely truthful in interviews....none of the writers are. It's a distinct possibility that as last year's shows went on it became clear that with Buffy's "rebirth" there became issues. Issues that are manafesting themselves now(as that one eyed thing said). So it's entirely possible that part of this rebirth concept could be that she was reborn into the slayer lineage, and as the only acting slayer, could carry on the line. Now that's just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Musings on tonights ep *spoilers* -- Corwin of Amber, 18:35:56 01/21/03 Tue

Does Andrew have a valid "insanity defense" for his murder of Andrew? He has serious issues with General Consensus Reality. He also seems to take on the attitudes of whatever is around him...does he have no seperate identity of his own?

Who kidnapped Xander and replaced him with a grown-up? I wish seen some of this maturity earlier in the series, instead of in the last season.

What would Buffy have done if one of the potentials had been killed by the vamp in the crpyt? Wouldn't that be murder on her part?

Where was Giles?

How do the Harbingers track the potentials?
[> Giles... -- Alison, 19:04:11 01/21/03 Tue

was off picking up another potential
[> more mysteries -- luna, 19:09:30 01/21/03 Tue

How does Buffy always know where Dawn is when she's in trouble?
[> [> Re: more mysteries -- Liv, 19:14:41 01/21/03 Tue

I started shouting that too when Buffy burst into the High School, then remembered that Willow had done a locator spell.
[> [> Because Willow... (spoilers) -- Scroll, 19:14:55 01/21/03 Tue

...did a locator spell to track down Dawn.
[> Questionable Answers to Your Questions *spoilers* -- Robert, 20:50:38 01/21/03 Tue

>>> Does Andrew have a valid "insanity defense" for his murder of Andrew?

No. He may be hearing voices (ie. Warren) that are not there, but his thought processes are not impaired. He knew that he was murdering Jonathon when he did it. He sold out his only remaining friend to win the favor of an apparition. He may have truly believed that the apparition was Warren, but was given no reasonable excuse for why Jonathon's death was a good thing. He merely refused to think for himself.

>>> He has serious issues with General Consensus Reality. He also seems to take on the attitudes of whatever is around him...does he have no seperate identity of his own?

Yes, he is a spineless twit, but lack of spine doesn't constitute a defense.

>>> Who kidnapped Xander and replaced him with a grown-up? I wish seen some of this maturity earlier in the series, instead of in the last season.

We have seen a gradual growth in Xander's maturity for at least the last four or five seasons. His growth is so gradual that I find it difficult sometimes to remember that he was ever an insecure geek. His current wisdom comes from having experienced all the same emotions and inadequacies as Dawn is now experiencing.

>>> What would Buffy have done if one of the potentials had been killed by the vamp in the crpyt? Wouldn't that be murder on her part?

Yes and no. When the U.S. Navy suffers a casualty (such as due to a crashed fighter plane) in training, it is not necessarily a case of murder. If the deaths were caused by someone's dereliction of duty, then it might be murder. The military must balance realism against safety in its training programs.

Buffy is attempting to give the slayers-in-training the necessary skills and confidence to survive when they might, in the future, do battle without Buffy's help. Remember, there are no longer watchers to provide such training. At some point in this training, they must experience live fire. My speculation is that both Spike and Buffy remained just outside the door, to lend a hand should things get out of control. Though we will likely never know for sure.

>>> Where was Giles?

In china, retrieving yet another slayer-in-training.

>>> How do the Harbingers track the potentials?

My guess is that they do not track the slayers-in-training. Rather, they take their orders from the First Evil, who is tracking the slayers-in-training. I am guessing that the First Evil uses the same techniques used by the pile of rubble formerly known as the Watcher's Council, and by the coven of witches back in England.
[> Re: Musings on tonights ep *spoilers* -- Metron, 21:12:55 01/21/03 Tue

Also...we seemed to be missing a proto-slayer. I can't remember the character name, but it was the younger one (who I recognize from watching Lizzie McGuire on Disney channel with my kid)

Anyone have a clue? :)
[> [> Re: I was wondering the same thing (spoilers) -- Sang, 21:17:33 01/21/03 Tue

Chloe, I think. Younger and dark skinned one (probably a latina). She is MIA and noone talked about her. I rewatched the ep to see whether they mentioned Giles took her with him. But no. It looked like she never existed.
[> [> dont hit me for this one :) -- Corwin of Amber, 07:21:51 01/22/03 Wed

She was the last girl in line for the bathroom, so she was just taking a shower.
[> Re: Musings on tonights ep *spoilers* -- anom, 22:10:57 01/21/03 Tue

"What would Buffy have done if one of the potentials had been killed by the vamp in the crpyt? Wouldn't that be murder on her part?"

I have a feeling Buffy & Spike were keeping an eye/ear out & would've stepped in if it had become necessary.
[> Re: Musings on tonights ep *spoilers* -- maddog, 12:13:32 01/22/03 Wed

I think the grown up Xander is a way the show is actually showing maturity. I too thought that it was risky to leave them in there...but after watching the newest SIT just kick ass out of nowhere, Buffy must have known that when in mortal danger that the SIT's would just know. They say at the beginning that Giles is off getting another SIT. I think anyone fooled by The First would be eligible for an insanity plea.
Buffy and American Idol- weirdness and spoiler -- Michael, 18:49:42 01/21/03 Tue

While waiting for SlayerTV to come back on from the commercials, I switched over to American Idol for some cyncial snickering. What I saw broke my heart: Poor disillusioned kids who want to live in a fantasy world and don't even have the talent to do that. Between Slayer breaks I watched several of the contestants savaged by the judges. Yes, they probably needed the reality check because many of them were pitifully bad, compounded by their pleading and groveling to try one more time.
Then, I finished "Potential" and I realized that it was just like the Idol episode. Here we have someone who thinks she might have the potential, goes out, does her best, but then realizes that her gift, her talent lies somewhere else. Reluctantly, she digs in and does what she can, not what she can't do. Let me have a show of hands for those who think we saw Dawn take a giant step forward tonight. Yeah.
What we saw tonight was an example of someone getting in touch with reality (if that is possible on Buffy), but once again this show comes through with a revelation for us all: live in the world you have been given. Don't try to kill demons and vampires unless you are a slayer or potential. Mr. Alexander Lavell Harris demonstrated that as well. When Xander said what he did was "look," how many of you instantly thought Watcher? Could it be that this show is about to take us all for such a spin that we will still be talking about this season at the 50th reunion?
I am discovering this season that I am pretty hyped up during an episode, but that when I watch the tapes later, there is a clearness and a satisfaction as I can relax and enjoy the moment. Another show of hands? Okay, enough with the voting. I need to sit and think some more.
Wow.
*Very OT* Buffy and my convalesence -- Lyonors, 19:33:39 01/21/03 Tue

So...let me start by saying...I am typing this one handed, I have been typing one handed since I injured myself back in mid-November at work, as a slave to the non-profit arts. I hyperextended my wrist while carrying a box of pointe shoes(yes, I work for a ballet company. I ran into the door if you must know the extent of my gracelessness.) :o) After being in an above-elbow cast for 5 weeks, and practically being accused of faking it by ny boss, today I was vindicated. I went in for what was supposed to be fun with mini cameras to see how bad the damage was, and what turned out to be, cut ne open in 2 places, throw three pins into my wrist and remove a random piece of floating bone. Fun, huh? I would feel bad for myself, but the heavy narcotics wont let me! :o) So how does this relate to Buffy? Well, I have been stressing myself out about this injury to rediculous levels because I am a classically trained violist and violinist going on my 17th year of playing, which is a large percentage of my 23 years. And its my LEFT hand. Well, my best friend in the whole world hasnt ever really "gotten" my Buffy fandom. But you know what she did for me? She went out and bought me season 3, so I wouldnt go mad during the next 2 weeks of my convalesence. How awesome is that? So even though I wont really be able to contribute much to the board for a while, I will be in the Buffy spirit, thanks to a great friend. So, if you all actually see my name on a post, know that it must have been important to me, cos it probably took forever to type it! :o)

Ly.
[> Oh, that's terrible! -- Scroll, 20:23:11 01/21/03 Tue

I'm a pianist (or rather, I was trained in piano; in reality I suck) so I kind of get your worry. Hopefully you'll heal alright and retain the mobility you had before. But at least you have Season 3! I'm still waiting on mine because I haven't yet bought a DVD player. Soon, though, very very soon... Hope you get better quickly...
[> Poor baby! -- Vickie, 22:19:50 01/21/03 Tue

But what a friend! "I don't get it, but if it will make you happy here it is."

I'll keep you on my Reiki list, if you want.
[> yow! get well quickly--& completely! -- anom, 22:21:20 01/21/03 Tue

What's the prognosis for your recovering movement in your hand? I hope you'll be able to go back to playing!
[> [> Re: yow! get well quickly--& completely! -- Lyonors, 13:38:07 01/22/03 Wed

Thanks for all the well-wishes everyone. And I don't have much of a prognosis yet until I see my doctor in 2 weeks. But when I woke up, the nurse anestetist was so sweet that the first thing she told me was "We'll get you playing again real soon." Its so nice to find health care professionals who truely care...

Ly.
[> Ouch! Get well soon! -- ponygirl, 07:28:15 01/22/03 Wed

[> Wishing you Buffy healing powers -- luna, 19:29:01 01/22/03 Wed

if only we could send them to you! But we are sending good wishes, anyway.
Potential (spoilers for BtVS 7.12) -- Jay, 19:35:26 01/21/03 Tue

I'm liking Rona, she seems to have street cred. Buffy seems to be a better Watcher/trainer than most who have tried. Spike can (kinda) hurt the potentials without any visible pain, interesting. Spikey and Buffy, I don't know. I feel like they should come up with a new name for him, because he really isn't Spike anymore.

Buffy makes a pointed speech again, this time with Dawn watching. I am liking Rona. Dawnie telegraphs that she wants to be special too. Amanda reappears, and they establish Giles won't be appearing. I'm buying this as another day for Buffy, or for her to comically expound on her relationship with Spike. A house full of teenage girls, full time, has to be traumatic. The core gang (Buffy, Willow, Anya, and Xander), plus Andrew, and later Dawn, conduct a tactical meeting. Dawn feels superior to the potentials and their handle on Slaying. I have no idea what Andrew is talking about. Grab your weapons. Dawn is reduced to Andrews level helping Willow with the spell to find the potential. Only Dawn has inside info about the girls who may be called. Willow does some spell action. Did it go wrong? Confusion reigns. The shimmying aura pounds Dawn at the front door, and I'm totally buying it.

Go see Darkness Falls.

Besides Dawn liking the water, I'm totally buying that Dawn could be a potential. Anya's looking pretty good to me. Dawn is getting a ton of instant respect from the gang, thank god Andrew is there to piss on it. With the "behind her back" discussion the gang conducts, Xander seems to have the most even keel on it. Willow and Anya arguing, always good. I hate to admit this, but I wish I could figure out what the HELL Andrew is talking about. Ah, the good ole demon bar. Where in the world is Saverio Guerra? Damn Becker! It is good to see Clem again. It would be wrong. Clem has Tivo? Yak urine can not be anything I want. Spotting Amanda again sets off my Buffy warning signal. But I'm not sure if I'm thinking she is a vampire or the First or what. But, I'm still buying that Dawn is the chosen one. High functioning schizophrenic. Amanda is definitely different. Spooky. I'm still buying it.

Flashbacks between Angel's mansion and the high school are tight. Go Dawn! Buffy, I hope these speeches pay off later, cause I'm getting sick of them. "Helpless" anyone? Dawn and Amanda have real problems. Dawn can work a chemistry classroom. I love the locking of the potentials with a vampire. Bringers passing Dawn up for Amanda, I never saw it coming.

I love how Dawn realizes that she is not the chosen one, but Amanda can't grasp what happened. The proto-slayer bragging was good., but not as good as what happened next. Xander's talk with Dawn made the whole episode worthwhile. The rest of the episode means nothing. What Xander says, well, it'll probably mean more than we can tell.
[> I AM UNCONTESTED! crawl away babies -- Jay, 20:36:26 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> Who would be fool enough to contest you, Jay? -- d'Herblay, 21:07:00 01/21/03 Tue

You're the guy who runs the contests!
[> [> [> hey, d'herb! welcome back! -- anom, 23:21:47 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> I don't think it's a good idea to go see Darkness Falls... -- ZachsMind, 21:20:13 01/21/03 Tue

There. You've been contested. Happy now? Actually I don't know if it's a good idea to see Darkness Falls or not. You just seemed to want to be contested. So there you go.

Actually your post read like random notes you wrote to yourself while watching the episode. It was kinda disjointed in points and I had trouble following along with some of your sentiments. I didn't respond directly to your original post cuz I didn't really know where to start.

Uhm..

I like Rona too.

I just lost the cherry on my cigarette.

Buffy's acting like a teacher. She's a guidance counsellor for half a season and now she thinks she's Laura Ingalls. I don't get it.

The warranty on Spike's chip has long since gone out. I think all he has to do now is start walking across a shag carpet and he'll be like Eric Cartman at the end of the South Park movie. Maybe the guys at the Initiative made Spike's chip by lobotomzing a Commodore.

New Name For Spike. Let's see. Angel was originally Liam and when he becomes soulless he's Angeles. Spike was originally WilLiam the Bloody and when he's soulless he's Spike. So now that he's soulful the logical thing would be to take his soulless name and drop the last syllable. Since Spike has only one syllable, he doesn't get a new name. I just love how that works.

The writers should really cut out the Buffy speeches. They suck. Just have her beat up on more vampires and then lock up the SITs with them more. Maybe one day the vamps will get lucky.

I adore Dawnie. Have I said this enough? I don't think I have. I know I'm in the minority but I think she's cool. She's not just a potential. She's a glowing energy orb thingy. The byproduct of an ancient magick spell. She's something almost as old as a god, with the memories of a kid. When Willow did that magic spell and Dawn accidently deflected it, the spell caused the glowing energy orb inside her to glow. She knows what it's like to be nothing special and pretty soon I bet she's gonna know what it's like to be much more than just a Slayer.
[> It's about ambiguity ... ( *Spoilers* 7.12 ) -- OnM, 21:12:39 01/21/03 Tue

Was just about to post this as a seperate theread to gather some comments, and then I read this:

*** The shimmying aura pounds Dawn at the front door, and I'm totally buying it. ***

... and I go whoa... once again, me not so crazy.

What is one of the first things that Dawn asks Willow after the glowy light show hits her, apparently indicating that she is a potential Slayer? It's getting too late in the evening for me to rewind the tape and get the specifics, but essentially, she asks:

"The spell. Could it have been ambiguous?"

Well, yes, actually it is. The spell is never specifically asked to locate a Potential Slayer. It is asked to locate things that will change (metamorphose, new skin, caterpiller into butterfly). (Check it out for yourself).

What got my attention was the three or four second long camera shot (deliberately kept short, sez I) where we see what looks like a glowy greenish energy ball right around Dawn's heart (or, Carlos Castenada fans may recall, near the solar plexus, where the 'Will' is supposedly seated).

No, Dawn isn't a potential Slayer. But she is going to change, and I think we have just seen it foreshadowed.

Now, back to what you said, one more time:

*** The shimmying aura pounds Dawn at the front door, and I'm totally buying it. ***

Key. Slammed against. Door.

G'nite now!

;-)

-- OnM
[> [> Re: It's about ambiguity ... ( *Spoilers* 7.12 ) -- Scroll, 22:30:42 01/21/03 Tue

Key. Slammed against. Door.

Hey! That's, like, foreshadowing or something! Thanks for pointing this out, OnM. I totally missed it. I'm going to go watch this episode all over again. Right. Now...
[> Re: Potential (spoilers for BtVS 7.12) -- M, 22:45:07 01/21/03 Tue

Yeah they were really trying to make Amanda look like a vampire. she liked her fingers with the blood on them. I was sure she was. Although I was holding my breathe forever on whether she or Dawn was the slayer until Willow confirmed. Then I surrendered to the possibility of a "Dawn the vampire slayer" spinoff. But no, just when I was sure they changed their minds. And really I still think Dawn fought pretty well. She should still train just keeping her new perspective.
My vote's for Dawn. Buffy can be the janitor. -- manwitch, 19:59:14 01/21/03 Tue

What a wonderful show. I love that it can fool you and trick you and stand you on your head and still end up telling you what you are aching to hear.

I think that aside from that high-pitched scream, I love Dawn. I loved the brief moment I was able to think she was a potential. But then, knowing that she wasn't, and watching the episode again, I was taken in even more by what a heart that girl must have. The courage, the resourcefulness and quickness she displays. Dawn saves Amanda, more than once. And I don't think its just cuz she was mistaken. I guess we don't really need to be the Slayer to be courageous or heroic. I find myself loving Dawn for similar reasons to why I always preferred Spike to Angel. Spike seemed to want to try to be good even without a soul, although he wasn't entirely successful perhaps. I see something similar in Dawn. To be a Slayer when you're not one, to be someone who by rights should run and hide and to stand up and do what must be done anyway. Buffy herself has no choice, but Dawn has free will. So when Dawn said at the end, "The power was never really mine," I thought, it's about power. Any power we have comes to us from far beyond. Even Buffy is merely a custodian. But that power will outlast us all, even the First. Perhaps all people get in their brief little lives is the ability to choose, even in the darkest moments, how that power will illuminate them, always with an awareness that its never really their's.

Sappy perhaps. But its late for me, and it was a choice between this and a post on Gosh Dawn's Getting Really Delectable. I went this way.
[> **Spoilers for Potential, above, by the way** -- manwitch, 20:04:49 01/21/03 Tue

[> Agree...see my above post (Spoilers Showtime/Potential) -- shadowkat, 20:30:47 01/21/03 Tue

Yes this is what turned and made the episode work for me :

I find myself loving Dawn for similar reasons to why I always preferred Spike to Angel. Spike seemed to want to try to be good even without a soul, although he wasn't entirely successful perhaps. I see something similar in Dawn. To be a Slayer when you're not one, to be someone who by rights should run and hide and to stand up and do what must be done anyway. Buffy herself has no choice, but Dawn has free will. So when Dawn said at the end, "The power was never really mine," I thought, it's about power. Any power we have comes to us from far beyond. Even Buffy is merely a custodian. But that power will outlast us all, even the First. Perhaps all people get in their brief little lives is the ability to choose, even in the darkest moments, how that power will illuminate them, always with an awareness that its never really their's.

And not sappy at all. I agree completely. Wish I'd not been writing when you posted this or I would have posted my long take on the episode beneath yours, which is so succintly and well written.

This episode hammered home the true theme - it's not about having the power to kill things, to be the slayer. It's about being able to choose, free will. It's what Buffy tells Andrew about why his killing of Jonathan is worse than Spike's spree in Sleeper and CwDP - Andrew had free will, Andrew could choose. Dawn also makes a choice - a choice that they lead up to in Showtime - when Dawn tells Andrew she can kill him if doesn't shut up and Andrew says, oh cool, a License to Kill.

It's also a metanarration in a way on a series long theme, about Dawn. Since the beginning we assumed that Dawn had to have some special powers - people keep posting how her key powers will come into affect soon. But my gut tells me, no that's not where we are going here. Dawn's key powers were never something she could yeild - all they were was her blood and they only activated once in a lifetime when she bled. Dawn's power - her miracle - is her life. The fact she is. They can't bring Joyce back from the dead. And they can't make her superstrong. But she can watch Buffy and take care of herself. And she can encourage someone else.
In this way she's like Season 1 -2 Willow and Xander.
[> [> was thinking the same thing -- Vickie, 21:08:29 01/21/03 Tue

That Dawn was special the way Willow was, to choose to get into the fight. And Xander, who never made a speech about choosing, just always showed up, sometimes with donuts, sometimes with glazing tools and a friendly plumber. But always showed up.
[> [> [> 'And Xander, ... just always showed up, ....But always showed up.' -- tam, 00:17:48 01/22/03 Wed

xander always did more than show up -- just a few:
season 1: with praying mantis lady, when buffy rescues him, he tries to fight the praying mantis, buffy pushes him away.
season 2: first episode when the vampire attacks him and willow - he pushes willow and tells her to run.
season2: when he and cordelia are hiding in buffy's bedroom after the valentine's day spell and angel attacks - again he tells cordy to get to safety.

it so mucher braver to be brave when you don't have special powers.
[> [> Re: Agree...see my above post (Spoilers Showtime/Potential) -- bas, 21:27:46 01/21/03 Tue

----"Dawn's power - her miracle - is her life. The fact she is. They can't bring Joyce back from the dead. And they can't make her superstrong. But she can watch Buffy and take care of herself. And she can encourage someone else.
In this way she's like Season 1 -2 Willow and Xander."-----

Yes, yes, yes. I couldn't agree with you more. Dawn's miracle is her life. And also, Dawn making a decision to be backup is wise and brave. For the first time, I've fallen in love with Dawn, and Xander all over again. Who better than these two to watch The Slayer's back that a sister who admires and loves her and Xander is "Peter the Rock" to Buffy. I hope Buffy realizes just how lucky she is to be loved by these people.


------"This episode hammered home the true theme - it's not about having the power to kill things, to be the slayer. It's about being able to choose, free will."------

I said something similar in a post below in response to ZachsMind about choices and free will. I agree again about theme.

Not a great episode, but not a bad one either. Dawn and Xander really made it worth watching.
[> [> I really like this. -- HonorH, 23:17:35 01/21/03 Tue

I'd been kind of thinking Dawn was going to end up as Buffy, but it's nice to think she's possibly more Xander. It's also nice that she can have the life Buffy was denied. Gee--when I put it that way, Dawn suddenly becomes the daughter of Buffy and Xander. Guess that works, given the dynamic they were setting up earlier this season.
[> [> Re: Agree...see my above post (Spoilers Showtime/Potential) -- TJ, 09:44:18 01/22/03 Wed

I have always thought being "the key" must have more to it than just opening interdimensional doors (once). After all, if that was the case, why didn't the monks just turn the key into a bug, and then step on it. By destroying the keu Glory would never be able to use it.

No, the Key must be something more. All that season they were talking about how important the Key was to the world.

I still believe that Dawn is the Key. Personally I don't know why so many people dislike her. I think she would make a great Slayer someday. However, this time she wanted it too much.

I think what Anya said about "Not rushing it" was a message to all of us. She said that Rushing Dawn into being the slayer would get her killed. It's also a great way to kill a story line.

I think what this episode was telling us as fans was "we aren't going to take the road you think." After all, the episode went just as we expected, up to the end. Dawn find out that she is one of the potentials. Which sets up the whole when does Buffy find out thing. How is Buffy going to feel about it? How will she treat Dawn compared to the other potentials, etc.

Dawn even found her first season Willow. Everything was in place, until we found out that "Willow" was actually a potential slayer.

I have wondered if what happened to Dawn in her house with ghost mom wasn't even related to "the big bad". I think there will be great significance to "Buffy won't choose you". But perhaps not the way we think.

I so hope that Dawn will be the next Slayer. Or perhaps becomes slayer mid season next year. And by being the "Key" I am wondering if she is going to be an Uberslayer. But she isn't ready yet. There's a dark spot in her soul that is yet to be explored. Remember she (as well as Xander) wanted to see Warren dead. As well she and Anya were going to throw hot water on Andrew. And also the threat she made about killing Spike in his sleep. Given the situations involved all perfectly understandable and I would probably feel the same way. But I guess for a slayer who welds such enomous power such an attitude is a luxury that is too costly to have.

Buffy have never struck me as "scary". But Dawn on several ocassions has been described that way. Now I hope they don't go all Dawnie becomes evil on us, because been there done that with Willow. But this "scaryness" was placed in Dawn's character for a reason. Perhaps she will go dark avenger ruthless on us. Perhaps Dawn will become more "Gray" than Buffy who always seems to have the right perspective of things when it comes to morality, especially when it comes to how the slayer should treat humans.

Does anyone doubt that if she had the opportunity, Dawn would have done the same thing to Warren that Willow did? Remember apart from Willow, Dawn was the closest to Tara. Perhaps she wouldn't go as far. Perhaps her conscience at the end would stop her. But I think she would come quite close.

There's a ruthlessness in Dawn that one doesn't see from Buffy. Buffy is a saint. But Dawn is more like the rest of us. We have seen Dawn's dark side reveal hereself on more than one occassion. I expect that we will see that part of her again if some human hurts the ones she loves.

Dawn didn't exist when we had the whole Angelus killing Ms Calendar thing. But I think she like Xander wouldn't be in the pro forgiving Angel camp. And I do wonder if she has totally forgotten what Spike did to Buffy.

With Dawn around, Spike better keep one eye open, when he sleeps.
[> [> [> On Dawn and Warren -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:17:02 01/22/03 Wed

I think that, if given the opportunity, Dawn would have killed Warren. I also think she would have tortured Warren. But, for some reason, I don't think she would have tortured AND killed Warren. Just kind of a gut feeling. If she had been as close to Tara as Willow was, or had had a few more emotional instabilities by that point, she might have gone through with both.

I totally agree with you about Dawn having a hard streak, and I'm hoping that her character will get a VERY interesting arc. Next Slayer? Maybe, but it would sorta undercut the message of "Potential". I don't know what they might do with her, but currently I'm enjoying her and what might be ahead for her more than any other character on the show.
Connecting Buffy & Angel (spoilers for 7.12, 4.9) -- Scroll, 19:59:27 01/21/03 Tue

I realise most of you guys haven't seen the Angel ep yet, but I really wanted post my thoughts before I forget them. So warning: spoilers for both Buffy and Angel.

Sleeper Agents

1) Our first was Spike, pawn of the First Evil. All anyone had to do was hum a little English ditty and Spike became a cold-blooded killer, siring an army of vamps at the FE's bidding. Is Spike still under the FE's thrall? Is his chip still working? I ask this because I remember a distinct "Argh!" of chip-induced pain from Spike when he killed a Harbinger. (Which begs the question: Are the Bringers human after all?)

2) Andrew may not be a sleeper agent; he's so wishy-washy, the FE never had to brainwash him, only quote "Star Wars" at him. Andrew's hanging with the good guys now. Will this be enough to uncondition him? Or change him for real?

3) My vamp hero, Angel. Within him lies the deadliest vampire of all: Angelus. And it appears Angelus has come out to play -- cutting Gwen's surveillance, drugging Cordy's tea, murdering Manny the Badly Dressed Totem. Then again, when did Angel have a chance to drug Cordelia's tea? I thought she had made it herself. Maybe we have two sleeper agents on our hands.

Angelus knew the Beast from Way Back When. What kind of deal did these two devils make that the Beast let Angelus live? And why can't Angel, who has the exact same brain Angelus has, remember meeting the Beast? (I'm of the opinion that getting a soul doesn't mean getting amnesia.) While I appreciate Wesley's suggestion that the only way to find out the Beast's plans is to ask Angelus, it would be very foolish to think the Best First Plan is to drop-kick that pesky soul from Angel's body. Seriously, try hypnosis first! You never know, it might jog some repressed memories!

Swallowing

1) Yes Dawn, becoming a slayer is like being swallowed. At least according to Anya.

2) The Beast swallows that orb of darkness. And calls Angelus by name. Hey, remember that massacre, with the dead bodies and burning fields? Good times, ol' buddy, good times!

Rousing Speeches

1a) Buffy giving her weekly pep-talk to the potential Slayers, all profound and sincere and motivating.

2b) Angel giving his once-in-a-look-it's-a-blue-moon pep-talk to the Fang Gang, all grumpy and pessimistic and demoralising.

1b) Buffy then leads the girls into a vamp's nest and locks them in a very scary and potentially justifiable Cruciamentum. Scary cuz, hello, vampire. Justifiable cuz, hello, self-confidence! Though it was still a risky decision on Buffy's part.

2b) Angel tries to protect Connor, thinking the Beast is after his son, when really all along Angel himself was the key. While Buffy throws the girls at the vamps, Angel wants to keep the Beast and Connor separate. (Though to be fair, the Beast is a bit more indestructable than your average undead guy.)

Things I Liked

1) Xander. I haven't been so much in love with Xander since last spring on the bluffs.

2) Dawn. Whoo-hoo! Dawn just grew up a lot in this episode. I'm such a Xander-Dawn shipper right now (not in the romantic sense, k?) because that scene was perfect in every respect.

3) Gwen. Yes, she's opportunistic and on the verge of being a Mary Sue, but I just like her for some reason. Maybe because I actually noticed chemistry between her and Angel. Actual sparkage.

4) Very scary loss of sun. Though I don't see how the sun can disappear over L.A. and still be shining brightly over Hong Kong, I'm willing to ignore the weird lack of science for the stunned and horrified looks on the Fang Gang's faces when they looked up at the sky and couldn't see the sun.

I'm so stoked for the rest of this season. I'm loving every minute of both Buffy and Angel. They're tied in together, I know it, and I can just feel all the clues falling into place, like puzzle pieces snapping together to create the larger tapestry of Whedon's genius.
[> With your warnings about Angel spoilings, I avoided your post -- Jay, 20:11:33 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> That's okay, only 24hrs to go in U.S. (spoilers 4.9, 7.12) -- Scroll, 20:33:45 01/21/03 Tue

...then you'll be able to read my post without fear :)

I have to say, while neither Buffy or Angel were perfect episodes, I still liked them a whole lot. There was much to chew on and digest. But I must admit some things are getting on my nerves.

1) No more sex vibes between Spike and Buffy! Get over it already!

2) Andrew, I do like you quite a bit, but even I'm getting annoyed. DragonballZ? How many Buffy watchers actually know anything about that show?

3) Angel was being a teenage brat about Cordy/Connor sex, but Cordy was just as annoying with her complete lack of emotions and "get over it!" attitude.

4) Wes, please you're my favourite character! I don't want to be disgusted by your low-key brainy flirting with Fred. Have you forgotten Lilah already?!
[> [> Preserving post until I can read it. -- shadowkat, 21:14:50 01/21/03 Tue

I'm assuming you're paralleling to Long Day's Journey
which is Wed's Ats? If so and this goes to archive?
Please repost.
[> [> [> Sure will, Masq (spoilers for this week's Angel) -- Scroll, 22:34:37 01/21/03 Tue

While not perfect, this ep is a stunner. And I greatly appreciated the dedication. Is it a spoiler to say that they dedicated this episode In Loving Memory of Glenn Quinn? Because they did, and I appreciate it. :)

Maybe after watching the eps again, I'll see more points of comparison and contrast. Sometimes I do tend to see more than what's really there, I stretch things to make it all fit together... But I do believe Joss is deliberately making parallels between the two shows. It's lovely, lovely fun :)
[> [> [> [> Oof! shadowkat != Masq -- Masq, 12:57:32 01/22/03 Wed

Our differing tastes in the characters of Spike vs. Angel would be enough to determine who is who!
[> [> [> [> [> LOL! Scroll should know better ;-) -- shadowkat, 15:37:28 01/22/03 Wed

Considering she shares your views on the S vs. A thingy.
LOL!

Poor Masq...how do you ever put up with us? I promise I'll post more on Angel this year. Beginning to get a little burnt on Btvs anyway. ;-) SK
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ack! Sorry 'bout that! (vague spoilers) -- Scroll, 17:23:13 01/22/03 Wed

Yes, I really should know better. Sorry s'kat, but I'm still not that interested in Spike, though I'm profoundly grateful his shirt is back on. OTOH, I'm very, very interested in seeing what happens with Angel... And the Angel-Connor dynamics have just been ratcheted up. I'm not spoiled but everybody who is keeps telling me it's gonna be AMAZING. Right, Masq? Right? Well, I live in hope...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah! Another Angel-Connor shipper! -- Masq, 18:01:27 01/22/03 Wed

Ready for the father-son angst! Hoping for the father-son team slaying bonding!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Truce? I love Angel and Angel/Connor and am digging Ats -- shadowkat, 21:26:47 01/22/03 Wed

Let's call a truce? I actually am digging Angel right now as a character, as long as he stays on his own show. ;-) Which I'm also digging far more than Btvs at the moment, odd as it sounds.

And on this at least we can all agree - I'm enjoying the Angel/Connor dynamic as well. Actually Angel has just gotten a lot more interesting as character.

Am into Angel/Gwen, the idea of Angelus/Cordy...just makes me grin fiendishly and love Angel/Connor - the relationship, get your heads out of the gutter.

But am missing Lilah.
[> Re: Connecting Buffy & Angel (spoilers for 7.12, 4.9) -- M, 23:38:04 01/21/03 Tue

Okay. Probably not the place to put this I just can't stand it much longer. Why would anyone other than maybe Adam want to get rid of the sun? Say good bye to agriculture and then human starvation and then vamp starvation. I think I'm missing something. I'm assuming that the sun still exists just it's light is blocked from the earth. Otherwise if there was no sun there wouldn't be an earth.
[> [> Not sure about that (spoilers for Angel 4.9) -- Scroll, 23:50:17 01/21/03 Tue

I don't know what "blotting out the sun" really means in terms of how it'll affect the earth. As far as we know, it's supposed to stop sunlight from reaching L.A., allowing vamps, demons, and other nasties to walk free as if it were night. But how will this sun-less day affect trees and plants and water? Got no idea... But then again, this is supposed to be an apocalypse. I don't think the Beast much cares whether our vegetation continues to photosynthesize or not. He probably doesn't much care if the vamps starve either.

BTW, I'm so glad the writers are bringing back the flashbacks. I loved the flashbacks from past seasons, especially the Angelus/Darla or Fanged Four flashbacks. Here's hoping Julie Benz will clear her schedule and make a quick appearance. I'm not spoiled for future casting (except the really big well-known one), I'm just being hopeful. Hey, I can hope, can't I?
[> [> An Answer... -- shadowkat, 21:40:23 01/22/03 Wed

Okay. Probably not the place to put this I just can't stand it much longer. Why would anyone other than maybe Adam want to get rid of the sun? Say good bye to agriculture and then human starvation and then vamp starvation. I think I'm missing something. I'm assuming that the sun still exists just it's light is blocked from the earth. Otherwise if there was no sun there wouldn't be an earth.

I paid attention to Many when he explained this, because was wondering how it would work. It doesn't obliterate the sun, it just blocks it out, sort of like an eclispe. So what happens is layer of the sky blocks out the sun over LA, imagine a huge black cloud (not unlike a radioactive cloud or a cloud of volcanic ash - when volcano's erupt they blott out the sun - except in this case there's no ash or radioactive rain - more an eclispe effect). This cloud
slowly spreads across the earth and blotts out the sun in California, then Kansas, then the whole contient, then the world - moving from West to East, like the God RA who in the legend journeys to the underworld for 12 hours to rise in the east.

When an eclispe happens - it doesn't effect every place on earth any more than the sun is up at the same time in every place on earth. So a cloud that blotts out the sun just blotts it out where it has been created and it takes a while to spread.

The metaphor extends to Angel - is the Beast similarly blocking Angel's soul. Does the soul = the sun?
Is that what FE does with the song for Spike? Is that what happens to Angel?
[> Re: Connecting Buffy & Angel (spoilers for 7.12, 4.9) and speculation. -- amber, 01:14:25 01/22/03 Wed

I'm in Canada and luckily got to see both Buffy and Angel tonight, so here's a couple thoughts on your post.

First off, Angel's amnesia...As a general rule Angel seems to remember the things he's done in the past as Angelus. If he didn't the soul-curse really wouldn't be very effective. However, Spike initiallly didn't remember things he'd done while under the control of the First Evil. He started to remember in "Sleeper" when he and Buffy went down to the basement of bodies. So, if Angel is actually a sleeper agent, controlled by music or something else, he wouldn't remember his actions either. (We didn't actually see Angel and Cordy make their drinks, so who knows if Angel slipped something in Cordy's.)

I know the Beast and the First Evil are different things, but my instincts tell me they're connected. The FE's tag line was "From beneath you it devours" and the Beast came from below the ground, where Connor was born.

My speculative guess is that perhaps The Beast, years ago, granted Angelus the power to have a child. Angelus has a big ego, and maybe he wanted to carry on the family line in a new more powerful way. Siring, that's okay for regular vamps, but Angelus thinks of himself as pretty special. (Course I'm not sure why the child was conceived so many years later, and whether or not it specifically had to be Darla's kid. I just came up with the theory a couple hours ago, haven't worked out all the kinks yet:) Anyway, perhaps The Beast granted Angelus this favour with the suggestion that Angelus could pay him back years later, or maybe the event was erased from his mind somehow. Anyway, maybe that would connect Conner's birth site to the arrival of the Beast. Angelus got what he wanted now it's time for the Beast to collect payment.

Also in terms of connections between the two shows. On Buffy we saw the Watcher's Council, which is allegedly one of the most powerful good forces in the world all but destroyed. (I know, they're kind of nasty, and Buffy wouldn't consider them good, but still they're symbolically good) On Angel we saw Wolfram&Hart one of the world's most powerful evil foces all but destroyed. The two big bad's seem to have similar motives in this respect, take out the big power centres, (regardless of their allegences?).

I also see other motive connections between the FE and The Beast. The FE likes to target people who have been bad at one point or another. Think of how it went after Willow and Spike. In the S3 Buffy ep. "Ammends" the First Evil wants to turn Angel. It tells him he was brought back to essentially be Angelus and kill Buffy. Now, tonight on Angel we see that the Beast wants Angelus to join forces with him. And do what exactly? Destroy the world? That's something Angelus was pretty keen on doing in S2 of Buffy.

Someone commented on this board a few weeks ago that a line of Joyce's was pulled from the Buffy ep. "Bring on the Night" It was during Buffy's dream of Joyce when Joyce is giving her the pep talk and she tells Buffy something along the lines of, "the sun sets, but it also rises every day." The line that was pulled was something like, "Well, except in L.A. where it doesn't seem to rise anymore." A lot of people speculated that ME pulled the line because they weren't ready to connect the two shows right now. My guess is it had to be pulled because the episodes numbers on Buffy and Angel weren't matching up right due to air dates. In that line Joyce isn't referring to the 'rain of fire' we saw in "Apocolypse Nowish", she's referring to the sun incident in tonight's ep. If ME had aired "Bring on the Night" back in Dec. with that line we all would have missed it's true meaning. And imagine the irony of tonight's Angel ep. in which the night is never-ending first airing after a Buffy ep. titled "Bring on the Night" in which Buffy is afraid of what will happen after nightfall. (Or as the case would have been with Angel back in it's WB Sunday time slot, the Angel ep. would have aired two days before "Bring on the Night")

Personally I can't wait to see how ME ties everything together and brings the two shows together, whenever that happens.
[> [> I like your theory (spoilers for Angel 4.9) -- Scroll, 07:27:45 01/22/03 Wed

perhaps The Beast granted Angelus this favour with the suggestion that Angelus could pay him back years later, or maybe the event was erased from his mind somehow. Anyway, maybe that would connect Conner's birth site to the arrival of the Beast. Angelus got what he wanted now it's time for the Beast to collect payment.

And I'm immediately reminded of "Rumplestiltskin" in which the maiden, forced to spin straw into gold for the king, strikes a deal with Rumplestiltskin that he'll spin the straw for her if she will give him her firstborn. Later, when she gives birth, Rumplestiltskin shows up expecting her to keep their bargain. When she protests, he gives her a chance to keep the child if she can guess his name. She can't for the longest time, but the sneaky queen follows him into the woods, learns his name, and manages to banish him when she finally speaks his name out loud: "Rumplestiltskin."

Or maybe it's more like "Rapunzel"... I dunno :) Either way, this is a good theory (which might be negated next week but is very cool to speculate on). It fits all available facts and would really throw a monkey-wrench in everything. None of the Fang Gang seem to know whether Connor is evil or good; Gunn and Angel are willing to suspect him of murdering Manny. Cordy seems ready to defend Connor as innocent, but her mantra of "It's not your fault" doesn't sound very convincing, IMHO. Though it may be that Cordelia was right the whole time.

Angelus and the Beast don't need to be enemies, the Beast claims. They don't need to be on opposing sides. Right now on Buffy, the theme is very much about using power to make the bad guys your enemies. In fact, Buffy even says it as she fights the vamp, right before she locks the potentials in their Cruciamentum. "He's the enemy." What if Angel plays the contradictory belief: "He's only your enemy if you make him your enemy." After all, Angelus and Angel are still the same person, and he isn't always the enemy. Connor is neither good nor evil, but human; as Manny the Totem claims, "The Midday totem is Man, the neutral totem, the potential of every human soul." (emphasis mine)

All humans are neutral, with the potential that is inherent in all human souls: to be good or to be evil. This is what separates soulless Spike from soulled Spike. This is what separates Angel from Angelus. And there is, strangely enough, no more a human soul than Andrew, our wishy-washy neutral geek-boy. He has the potential to be so much more, but right now he's just sitting in neutral, engine idling.

Thanks for pointing out that cut line from "Bring On the Night". It makes perfect sense now, and makes me really wish the episodes had aired together. Would've made that much more of an impact. But, Man, I am so stoked over this season! And I hardly ever use the word "stoked"!
[> [> [> ^ Oops! spoilers for 4.9 AND 7.12 in above post -- Scroll, 07:30:39 01/22/03 Wed

[> [> [> Hmm interesting (Mild Spoilers for American Gods as well) -- shadowkat, 22:05:42 01/22/03 Wed

Manny the Totem claims, "The Midday totem is Man, the neutral totem, the potential of every human soul." (emphasis mine)

Okay when I heard this - I immediately thought of American Gods a book by Neil Gaiman, then promptly forgot it until I re-read the line in your post tonight.

In American Gods, our hero Shadow - comes to a house that has three gypsey women. One is up in the morning. One is up at midday. And one is up at night.
The one who gets up in the morning rises the sun. The one in midday positions it in the middle of the sky and the last one - pulls down the moon.

The Midday Totem is man, the soul, somewhat funky looking on the outside, but within has a wonderful powerful orb.
Musketet - the evil little girl - is order, connecting the earth with the other realm - the connection has slowly corrupted her, but she lives for order keeping dimensions in balance. Then there's one that's power lies in his heart.
When all are connected they create a cloud the blocks out the sun - which gives the earth heat and life and light.
Although - I think heat and light may be the only true consequence.

All humans are neutral, with the potential that is inherent in all human souls: to be good or to be evil. This is what separates soulless Spike from soulled Spike. This is what separates Angel from Angelus. And there is, strangely enough, no more a human soul than Andrew, our wishy-washy neutral geek-boy. He has the potential to be so much more, but right now he's just sitting in neutral, engine idling.

Neutral. Are they? Don't know. Humans are motivated to do good. But they have free will and that means neutrality. Andrew says he hates his free will. When asked if Andrew is evil - Buffy says no, but he when he's around evil he takes on it's flavor or scent like a bad mushroom. Andrew is chamelon who grabs whatever he is around. Shifts like the wind. The perfect metaphor for "Midday" - the neutral point of the sun. The middle.

Angelus/Angel
Spike/SoulSpike

Right now Buffy sees them as one or the other. What makes them different than Andrew? Perhaps their memories? They both know what happens when you go evil. They know the cost.
They know how addictive and consuming it is. It blotts out everything - including the sunlight they can never see.
Andrew - has never really seen true evil or paid the consequences. Like Faith - he plays with it like a child.
Hiding from himself.

Angelus and the Beast don't need to be enemies, the Beast claims. They don't need to be on opposing sides.

Reminds me of the first evil and Spike, trying to get Spike to choose it over Buffy. To go with it. When the Beast said the same thing to Angelus - I whooped! That's it. Finally.
They are going to explore what it means for a vampire to have a soul. Both vamps are the key to the Apocalypse somehow...both are being asked to do something. And both have had their free will removed at one time - to do unspeakable evil. Evil they can't remember. And the people around them come up with incredibly different plans on how to deal with this.

perhaps The Beast granted Angelus this favour with the suggestion that Angelus could pay him back years later, or maybe the event was erased from his mind somehow. Anyway, maybe that would connect Conner's birth site to the arrival of the Beast. Angelus got what he wanted now it's time for the Beast to collect payment.

Not sure I agree but certainly possible. At any rate I have a reason for why it didn't happen years earlier.

Maybe Angelus' deal with the Beast happened shortly before he killed the Gypsey girl and lost his soul. And that being the most recent of a whole stream of memories, he lost it. He is wearing the same outfit and the area looks oddly reminiscent of Romania. The people killed could possibly be the result of the Fanged Four and the Beast.

Since he got his soul back - Darla wanted no part of him.
She didn't consider sleeping with him until after she turned human and became a vamp again and learned how he could lose his soul. So maybe there just wasn't any opportunity until now.

Don't know.
[> Re: Connecting Buffy & Angel (spoilers for 7.12, 4.9) -- ponygirl, 12:30:49 01/22/03 Wed

Nice post Scroll!

I have some serious doubts about your inclusion of Angel on the list of sleepers. I gotta think that Cordelia is being played, has been since she returned (maybe even earlier). Cordy under some kind of evil influence would explain her memory loss, consistently inconsistent behaviour, and C/C. It also explains why Angel wouldn't remember the Beast -- Cordy is having a false Beastie induced memory. My big question: why does the Beast want Angelus to come out and play?

Loved the image of Cordelia and Angel sitting on two chairs, matching yet separate, both in the hotel and in Gwen's pad. Their connection to each other or a symbol that they're on opposite sides?

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