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So what's up with Giles? (Spoilers to date) -- Darby, 05:48:53 02/05/03 Wed

My first reaction, being that I'm the old and cranky sort, was that the writers are going too far out of their way to address internet-based speculation, devoting way too much subplot time to things like, is Dawn a Slayer? and, is Giles the First Evil? And, if that's all this was, bleah!

But what if this was the only way Giles could tell us what's going on?

So Robson's semi-dying on the floor of his flat, along comes Giles, swissshh...and Robson wakes up in hospital, and Giles has poofed? What are the options here?

a - Giles prevents the Bringer from killing him, defeats the Bringer, and then toddles off, leaving Robson to die.

b - Giles is killed, but somehow is alive and corporeal later. And Robson is not finished off after Giles.

c - Giles is incapacitated by a Bringer who knows who he is and taken away (Robson isn't worth finishing off at this point, and he seems to be dying anyway. And Bringers are very focussed and none too bright). He is turned into a mole by the First, a sower of despair, enough to be useful but not enough to totally un-Giles him, and he's sent off to Sunnydale, where he cannot tell anyone what's going on but he can do subtle things to make people suspicious of him. Not touch things. Be negative and unhelpful enough that he won't be asked for much and therefore won't be as harmful as a sleeper. Unfortunately, he's Giles and none of the Scoobies have ever really understood him enough to pick up subtle changes in his demeanor, and everyone trusts him too much to catch on to his pointedly not touching anything.

That would almost work, except for a couple of things: one, the proto-Slayers - how'd he hook up with them, and more importantly, why? Does the First understand that a houseful of teenage girls would frazzle and demoralize anybody? And why suggest using the eyeball oracle? Was that a specific part of the First's plan? Is the Oracle dead (don't think we have to worry about our heroes trying to hug it!) and giving out critical misinformation?

And, more importantly, do we still care? Well, if the plot leads to more Giles, I guess that would be all right.
[> Re: So what's up with Giles? (Spoilers to date) -- Malandanza, 07:37:12 02/05/03 Wed

I think the problem with c is that Sleeper Giles would've had ample opportunity to dispose of a few potentials without anyone knowing -- then again, maybe he has and we (and Giles) just don't know about it yet. He could have been responsible for the dead slayer the FE pretended to be. It also doesn't make much sense that the injured watcher waited so long to tell anyone about Giles (maybe he was in a convenient coma). Sleeper Giles also wouldn't explain any aberrant behavior.

So I'm advancing theory d)

Giles did die in that apartment, but the Coven recovered his body and used a spell like the one from the Zeppo to reanimate him so he could finish his tasks. Zombie Giles could behave oddly and the explanation would be easy -- he's not been quite right since the reanimation. Not wanting to touch anyone could also work -- he's adjusting to the being dead idea. Perhaps an alternate form of reanimation (since the Coven is good and shouldn't be using dark magicks) -- something along the lines of Sheridan's resurrection in Babylon 5, where he came with an expiration date, or a spell lasting until a particular goal has been reached.

In any event, we ought to hear the whole story next week, because Anya, Xander, Dawn and Andrew will be asking about it. Even if Giles tells them in confidence what really happened, I'm betting Andrew won't be able to keep a secret.
[> Re: So what's up with Giles? (Spoilers to date) -- lunasea, 07:37:16 02/05/03 Wed

Why is the First the only one with Sleeper agents?

Giles was almost beheaded in "Sleeper," not in "Never Leave Me." Why that episode?

Giles being corporal was discovered in "Killer in Me." Why that episode?

Titles often give clues.

As soon as Giles went to see the Eye, it was obvious that he was Giles. The Eye knows what happened to Giles. I am sure that their exchange is pretty important.
Lost Love and Fairytale Kisses -- Rufus, 06:46:13 02/05/03 Wed

I have a feeling that many people won't like last nights episode "The Killer in Me" but if you pay attention some things that were said were very important.

Willow has not exactly had her magic groove back since she tried to destroy the world. Her trust in her ability to control her angry feelings has left Willow afraid to use magic and to move on past the death of her love, Tara. I'm sure some people would prefer that she stay stuck like that forever because they liked the ship of Willow and Tara....I disagree. Willow kissed Kennedy and turned into Warren, the man she skinned alive in Villians. The rest of the episode is Willow trying to get back to being Willow, but she needed some help.

The ethical quesion would be should Willow be getting a second chance at all? Shouldn't she be punnished more? But in the Buffyverse revenge, justice, retribution isn't as simple as slapping the cuffs on someone and sending them to court...this is a world where the criminal code can't be applied in the same literal way.


Kennedy: I'M NOT SO INTO THE MAGIC STUFF. SEEMS LIKE FAIRY TALE
CRAP TO ME, BUT IF IT MATTERS TO YOU, YOU CARE ABOUT IT,
SO IT'S COOL.


We are back to the Fairytale motif that has always been strong in the Buffyverse. Redemption and fairytales...there is a connection.

The word redemption should not be associated with the Christian dogma and theology, where it is a concept with so many connotations. In fairytales, redemption refers specifically to a condition where someone has been cursed or bewitched and through certain happenings or events in the story is redeemed. This is a very different condition from that in the Christian idea. The Psychological Meaning of Redemption Motifs in Fairytales by Marie-Louise Von Franz

I know I keep harping on that ML Von Franz quote, but in the Buffyverse there is no Judge Judy, or real life judge that can deal with the metaphorical situations the characters find themselves in. Willow killed a man, but he wasn't an innocent, and he was going to keep killing. But, killing for revenge had a price and that was to become lost in the same type of evil that Warren was. To kill just because she willed it. Willow was saved from herself in Grave, but she was just as frozen in grief as she was when she got so lost without her love. I don't care what people think about appropriate grieving time, I don't care what anyone thinks about Kennedy and Willow as a ship....what Kennedy did was to redeem Willow from herself imposed punnishment. She saved Willow from Amy "hex".....

Amy: WHAT, TO WILLOW? OH, JUST YOUR STANDARD PENANCE MALEDICTION IS ALL.

Kennedy: OK, AND THAT'S MAGIC CRAZY TALK FOR WHAT?

"Penance Malediction", that is just a fancy name for a curse based upon the victim's need to punnish themselves for a wrong they have done. The irony of this curse is that people frequently will punnish themselves in ways that exceed what the real life punnishment would be. Willow wasn't punnishing herself for just Warren, but for allowing herself to feel anything for anyone but Tara. Kennedy is the person who triggered the curse, and ultimately the person who redeemed Willow from the curse and herself. Anyone looking to the real life justice system to make sense of the Buffyverse aren't going to understand what the writers are doing. The mention of fairytales has been a constant in the Buffyverse....Gingerbread is the one episode where the demon was destroyed by not believing in the form it took to get people to harm each other. That episode also made Amy into a rat....and I think she is still running on that teeny wheel in a cage of her own making.

Amy: THIS ISN'T ABOUT HATE. IT'S ABOUT POWER. WILLOW ALWAYS HAD
ALL THE POWER, LONG BEFORE SHE EVEN KNEW WHAT TO DO WITH IT.
JUST CAME SO EASY FOR HER. THE REST OF US? WE HAD TO WORK
TWICE AS HARD TO BE HALF AS GOOD. BUT NO ONE CARES ABOUT
HOW HARD YOU WORK. THEY JUST CARE ABOUT CUTE, SWEET WILLOW.
THEY DON'T KNOW HOW WEAK SHE IS. SHE GAVE IN TO EVIL, STUFF WORSE THAN I CAN EVEN IMAGINE. SHE ALMOST DESTROYED THE WORLD. AND YET EVERYONE KEEPS ON LOVING HER?SO WHAT'S WRONG WITH HAVING A LITTLE FUN, HUH? TAKING HER DOWN A PEG OR TWO?

Amy brought up many of the objections that fans have had to Willow not being punnished in a conventional way. But Willow wasn't herself, any more than any character who has been under a curse be it a magic spell, being a Werewolf, a vampire. It's clear that whatever a person does while in a cursed state, or under the influence of magic isn't responsible in the same way a real life murderer would be. You blame the demon or spell. You save the cursed or bewitched person from themselves, redemption is the restoration of order. If people stick to the Christian concept of redemption then they will only find frustration in an ME show.

So, magic....Kennedy doesn't believe in it....she accepts it as part of the package with Willow but doesn't believe in it the same way that the Scooby Gang does, ironic when you consider that Kennedy is a Potential Slayer. But it was Kennedy, the one who thinks magic is crap, that redeems Willow from her curse and she does it the same way she triggered the curse in the first place.


Kennedy: WILLOW...I DON'T THINK YOU DID ANYTHING WRONG.
THIS IS JUST MAGIC, AND I THINK I'M FIGURING THE WHOLE MAGIC THING OUT.
IT'S JUST LIKE FAIRY TALES.

What Kennedy said better be remembered for what happens in this years finale....."it's just like Fairy Tales." Magic is what brought the disorder and it will be magic that is needed to help restore order. For that to happen Willow is going to have to be Willow, not just a grieving, frightened, victim. Willow will have to be the Willow who always had the power, even when she thought she had none. And her power will have to come from a place....well the Wiccans at the University said it best.....

INSTILL US, O GREAT ONE, WITH PEACE, WITH STRENGTH, WITH COMPASSION, WITH HOPE. THE PATH WE SEEK IS YOURS.
KEEP US ON THAT PATH.


Willow strayed from the path, she let her rage control her, allowed evil to overcome her....she got lost. Kennedy found her and redeemed her, brought her back to herself...she did this by seeing Willow not Warren. And for those who can't get past Willow with Tara, well I can't help you. Life does go on, and Kennedy is part of Willows life. She also is the hero in this episode, the hero who restored Willow. The constant in this is love and compassion. You can't feel either if you are hateful, or focused on punnishing yourself. It's no way to honour Tara, no way to live in the world. Willow feared that by living, by even contemplating loving again, she would forget Tara, but that is simply not true. Her frozen state just perpetuated her self doubt, it kept her off the path and less able to feel love or compassion. One kiss triggered the curse and one kiss cured it.
[> the above post has spoilers for "The Killer in Me" -- Rufus, 06:47:24 02/05/03 Wed

[> Re: Lost Love and Fairytale Kisses -- Cactus Watcher, 07:10:22 02/05/03 Wed

I've always enjoyed reading your stuff, Rufus. But, it seems like you just keep getting more perceptive.

I was looking for a 'Tara would forgive' angle while I was watching the episode, but 'moving on' makes much more sense. I still think the relationship with Kennedy has moved too fast for Willow, and not because of any lingering attachment to Tara. Maybe we'll see something on that issue before long. But I've never doubted Kennedy/Tara could happen.

I thought episode was a reversal of old fairtale pattern at first. You know the old joke. Kiss the handsome prince, and he turns into a frog. But, as you say, both the cursing and the cure are very much in the fairytale style.
[> [> Boy, am I half asleep! -- CW, 07:14:23 02/05/03 Wed

Kennedy/Tara? Sheesh!
[> Great post, but -- lunasea, 07:26:27 02/05/03 Wed

I just can't seem to care. After last night's episode one thought screamed in my head "TOMORROW IS ANGEL!!!"

"As Buffy turns" is getting to be too much. Get back to the First and what the heck Buffy is doing to cause the disturbance in the mystical forces.

It was an entertaining show, but my life isn't a fairy tale. Kennedy's kiss isn't going to lift my curse. No one's is. Let's get back to Angel where his redemption comes from within. I want epiphanies, not glamours.

The Prayer of St. Francis said it much better than the blessed-wannabes.
[> [> The epiphany-of-the-week can also get tiresome -- CW, 07:38:40 02/05/03 Wed

Hopefully your life isn't all rain-of-fire and unstoppable, murdering demons, tied vaguely to your existence, either!

Go ahead and enjoy Angel, but don't whine about Buffy. In turn, I'll keep my mouth shut about what I'm not liking about Angel.
[> [> [> Re: The epiphany-of-the-week can also get tiresome -- lunasea, 07:53:23 02/05/03 Wed

I love BtVS. I can't wait to see how Buffy has irreperably altered the mystical forces and for us to find more about all the mythos surrounding the Buffyverse, like the Slayer line, The First, The PTB and all that stuff.

Just because I criticize the UPN feel to last night's episode doesn't mean that I dislike Buffy. Buffy rarely feels like a UPN show and last night it did.

Buffy has her share of epiphanies. S5 is Threshold. S6 is Dark Night and S7 will be Enlightenment. I can't wait to see how Joss symbolizes this. Great!!! Get back to it. I waited 2 weeks for relationship crap?!? Clever relationship crap, entertaining relationship crap, but if that was all I wanted, I would be a regular WB and UPN viewer. I will put up with last nights episode to get to the actual good ones.

I don't give a flying rats fig about "rain-of-fire and unstoppable, murdering demons." That isn't what S4 is about. That isn't why I watch the show. I watch it to see how ME uses metaphors to convey their story. I watch it to see how Angel deals with the crap that is his life and what he learns from this. I watch to see how the arc is developed.

I can relate more to Angel's view of the sword/soul and the dichotomy/dissociation that shows than I can being kissed and everything being all right. Talk about a fantasy.

What a beautiful moment, with a kiss Willow was saved. BARF.
[> [> Actually, I've alread seen Angel -- Rufus, 07:41:50 02/05/03 Wed

And unlike you, I don't have to waste time slamming one show to make the other look better. There are redemption motifs in both series and you are again proving that personal preference dictates how you like your redemption....or how you see soap opera in either series.
[> [> [> Re: Actually, I've alread seen Angel -- lunasea, 08:08:24 02/05/03 Wed

No, instead you spend you time slamming me.

I was not saying that BtVS is a horrible show. Just saying that last night's episode ended for me when the show did. That didn't happen S6. I still think about those episodes. Some may have fallen short of the mark, but it was an incredibly bold task. The trilogy of S5-7 is amazing also. When they stick to that, the show is also amazing.

Last night they didn't. I was entertained when I watched it. It was a candy bar, enjoyable, but no nutritional value. I waited 2 weeks for a candy bar?

I find it insulting to dismiss criticism because of ships and preferences. Rather than attack me for my preference, how about addressing what I actually said.
[> [> [> [> Not trying to start a fight. -- CW, 08:18:01 02/05/03 Wed

You do need to ask yourself why two different people misjudged your intentions in your reply. And I have to wonder why the demony-symbolic-sword surface layer of Angel doesn't bother you so much, but a fairytale surface layer of this episode does.

You are certainly within your rights not to like the fairytale idea, but that wasn't simply what came out in your orginal reply.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight. -- lunasea, 08:41:16 02/05/03 Wed

And I have to wonder why the demony-symbolic-sword surface layer of Angel doesn't bother you so much, but a fairytale surface layer of this episode does.

Because the purpose of the sword stuff was to show Angel's POV. It wasn't saying that that view is accurate. If anything it is that view that drives the arc this season.

A fairy tale is just that, a tale. There are some great ones, but they all have the same problem, something external saves the heroine. We can get into how this something external represent something, but haven't we evolved beyond needing to disguise this?

We disguise things, like Angel's fantasies, because we cannot handle things directly. In order to be saved, we need to believe in kisses or God or something that isn't us. Angel believe in his soul, something that is him. In his fantasy, that was symbolized, but he does believe in it and he does believe in himself.

Same thing with Buffy. She doesn't need some kiss. She has a love that is brighter than the fire. Buffy and Angel are about their own potential without something external to project that onto.

I am beyond that projection, so when I see it, it does nothing for me. That is what a fairy tale is, a story written by our Transcendent Function disguised so that we can handle its lesson.

As for why 2 people saw the same thing, I have been on the net long enough to know how ships cloud people. However it is unfair and innaccurate to just assume that that happens when you "meet" a new person. Maybe I should put up a few of my old Buffy essays. Right now AtS is more interesting (if they ever get back to the mystical forces I am sure that won't be the case), so that is what I talk about. Right now, BtVS is just another UPN show.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight. (spoilers Awakenings) -- ponygirl, 09:02:17 02/05/03 Wed

Hmm, what about the fact that Angel requires an external trigger (sex) to achieve an internal state (happiness) that creates a transformation (loss of soul). Compare this to Willow's external trigger (kiss), internal state (guilt), and transformation (into Warren) and we pretty much have the same story. And I imagine that Angel's current problems are going to be resolved by another equally external factor - someone restoring his soul to him. I'd even argue that Angel's constant separation of himself from Angelus has parallels to Willow seeing Warren in herself -- both would like to compartmentalize the killer within rather than deal with the darker aspects of their own natures.

Which version of the tale you prefer is a matter of opinion. But in my opinion they're both fairy tales.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight. (spoilers Awakenings) -- lunasea, 09:23:50 02/05/03 Wed

And I imagine that Angel's current problems are going to be resolved by another equally external factor - someone restoring his soul to him.

That will only be the beginning. Angel's problems will be resolved how they always are, by some external thing (the resouling) falling to resolve his problems and him having some epiphany that actually frees him.

Angel THINKS his soul is the sword that can pierce the head (identity) of the beast. That doesn't mean that will happen. Why set up the arc they are, if all that is going to happen is that Angel gets resouled and gets on with his Uber-Championing?

On BtVS the kiss DID restore Willow. Big difference there.

I'd even argue that Angel's constant separation of himself from Angelus has parallels to Willow seeing Warren in herself -- both would like to compartmentalize the killer within rather than deal with the darker aspects of their own natures.

Lots of parallels, but these are also skewed in some ways too and those ways matter to me. This season is about the dissociation of Angel/us. It will be resolved, probably about episode 20 (speculation). He will have to, through his own understanding, integrate these parts. The fantasy just drives the arc. The soul isn't the panacea he thinks it is.

Willow wasn't integrating jack. The external plot device didn't fail her. She didn't have to rely on herself. She couldn't do it herself. She needed some chick to give her a kiss.

Angel was a fantasy. It is supposed to be a tale. Willow was Buffyverse reality. Big difference. If Willow had a dream like that, that would be one thing. It would just be about her state of mind.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight. (spoilers Awakenings) -- Anneth, 11:16:08 02/05/03 Wed

"Angel's problems will be resolved how they always are, by some external thing (the resouling) falling to resolve his problems and him having some epiphany that actually frees him."

"On BtVS the kiss DID restore Willow."

As was so eloquently pointed out in the thread about Buffy's chackras (sorry if I misspelled it), *every* big battle on Buffy is about Buffy having to defeat something inside herself before she can go on to defeat the external evil. In every season, the Big Bad is both something external (like the Mayor) and something internal (Faith, Buffy's distorted fun-house mirror image). I believe it's extremely important to note that Buffy *always* has to defeat her inner Big Bad before she can defeat the external BB. And to defeat her internal BB, she too must first have an epiphany; a moment of clarity and insight into herself and her motivations. In S1, for example, she must confront and defeat her mortality before she can confront and defeat the Master.

And, also importantly, the same holds true for the rest of the Scooby Gang. Their revelations come from within. I believe the kissing in KIM was a device, and nothing more - a compelling way to set up the main story and tie it into the two secondary stories in the episode. The final kiss was not the climax of the episode; rather, it was the denoumont. The climax - the epiphany - was Willow finally admitting that she hasn't allowed herself to move on, to heal and grow in the aftermath of an incredibly traumatic event, Tara's death. It parallels Spike's pain and confusion in the final scene of Beneath You, Anya's in Entropy, and Buffy's in pretty much all of S6. If you read the fairy-tale theme as a device, then the kiss didn't restore Willow *internally* - only externally.

"Willow wasn't integrating jack. The external plot device didn't fail her. She didn't have to rely on herself. She couldn't do it herself. She needed some chick to give her a kiss. "

The way I read it, she *did* do it herself. She finally admitted to herself, and another person, that she's been in a psychological holding pattern since Tara's death. I think the kiss was nothing more than an external manifestation of that internal development.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Very well said -- Sophist, 12:36:39 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight. (spoilers Awakenings) -- lunasea, 12:47:06 02/05/03 Wed

I can see what you are saying, but the Kiss was imposed on her by Kennedy. If Willow was the one that initiated the kiss, that is one thing. She didn't. She resisted it. It was Kennedy who "got it." Kennedy had the a-ha moment that preceded it.

Sesame Street updated Cinderella. It is called "CinderElmo." It is great. When the Fairy godfather (who is a temp and not very good with magic yet) appears, he doesn't just wave his wand and make everything all better. We get a great song called "If You Have a Dream, Do Something." It has an interesting take on Fairy Tales.

I love Maria-Louise von Franz. Her section from "Man and His symbols" is one of my favorites (second to Aniela Jaffe's) and that is one of the 3 books that I recommend to everyone. However, aren't we beyond having to project things like this?

To compare it to AtS, if Angel was the one with the hex and Cordy kissed him, it wouldn't have worked. Angel is the modern fairy tale, where the external device doesn't work. It is the story where you have to "do something." The sword isn't going to slay The Beast, not if the show follows its pattern. That was the point of the fantasy, that is was a fantasy.

The climax - the epiphany - was Willow finally admitting that she hasn't allowed herself to move on, to heal and grow in the aftermath of an incredibly traumatic event, Tara's death.

But the symbol wasn't just admitting that she had, it was her getting over it. She no longer impossed her penance on herself. Big difference. The symbol went too far. She didn't have the realization necessary to move on. She just realized she hadn't. Willow's story was too abbreviated for so dramatic a device.

To compare that to Angel, even after his Epiphany, he still had to work out things before he got to Pylea where he defeated the pure form of his demon. If that came right after his epiphany, I would criticize it.

Spike's pain and confusion in "Beneath You" still hasn't been resolved and it didn't have a dramatic device to say that he had (that will happen later, I am sure). Anya is still working on her issues (I think. We really haven't seen this) and she didn't get any device. She had an AtS moment where things failed her and she has to figure them out for herself. Buffy's in S6 was symbolized by climbing out of the grave, but she worked through a lot to get there and the realization preceded it.

Willow figured out I don't want to be over Tara. Big deal. She didn't figure out how to be over her. She should still be Warren.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> just a quick response -- Anneth, 13:28:13 02/05/03 Wed

"But the symbol wasn't just admitting that she had, it was her getting over it. She no longer impossed her penance on herself. Big difference. The symbol went too far. She didn't have the realization necessary to move on. She just realized she hadn't. Willow's story was too abbreviated for so dramatic a device."

I can see where you're coming from, but I think we won't know one way or the other whether the kiss was the sum total of Willow's penance (which is what I'm reading your interpretation as saying) or just the beginning of her growth as a character (which is what I was trying to say) until the season has progressed a little more. If the season from now on simply has Willow being all healthy and hunky-dorey, then I'll eat crow and agree with you that the writers took the easy way out. But I suspect that we're just on the cusp of some major Willow-character-developement; her trials are not yet over. She, I believe, will be written as continually struggling with the fact that she's finally moving into the next phase of her existence, life after Tara. I look forward to finding out what happens!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: just a quick response -- lunasea, 13:39:50 02/05/03 Wed

Willow will have a ways to go, with magic. Let's see if she still has guilty feelings every time she and Kennedy get cozy. They have this tendancy for Willow to say "Gee, I am upset. Now I am not." 4 episodes is all it took to get over Oz.

We have to deal with the magic aspect. This was a nice dramatic way to get her over the Tara aspect. Not enough screen time for anything more.

Same thing with Spike. This episode was a nice dramatic way to get the chip out. We don't have time for anything else.

The Killer in Me is the writers for killing off these story lines. :-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight. (spoilers Awakenings) -- slain, 13:13:26 02/05/03 Wed

Yes, quite right - the kiss didn't restore Willow, Willow restored Willow. The kiss, this being a Gothic show where psychological elements are always given physical manifestation, was representative of Willow accepting another partner (even in a casual sense), and moving on. It wasn't the case that the princess kissed the other princess (neither of them are frogs, after all) and all was well - that's not so much missing the point as being in a completely different country when the point passes by. The kiss was symbolic, and considerably more powerful than Willow saying "Gee, I think I'll move on a bit now". Just like AtS, BtVS uses physical metaphors for the character's inner minds; and on both shows these metaphors dramatise internal conflict.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also, the kiss also symbolised what Kennedy had just said. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:38:18 02/05/03 Wed

It was a physical expression of Kennedy's words "I don't think you did anything wrong, Willow (in regards to kissing someone other than Tara)". Yes, Willow needed some external help; she needed someone to tell her that her feelings were okay. But that doesn't make it a cheap way out. I don't think Willow, as a character, is fully capable of getting through all her emotional problems without someone to help her. Angel, while his redemption is more from within himself, still needs to rely on others now and again to pull him through rough spots, and besides he has always been much more of a loner than Willow.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight...but are you? -- Wisewoman, 10:06:05 02/05/03 Wed

Same thing with Buffy. She doesn't need some kiss. She has a love that is brighter than the fire. Buffy and Angel are about their own potential without something external to project that onto.


Elsewhere in this thread and previous threads you have admitted that you are a "huge B/A 'shipper." When you make the statement that "she has a love that is brigher than the fire," I can only assume that you are speaking of her love for Angel. This seems to be an obsession for you, and certainly has coloured all of your posts so far, whether it's actually stated therein or not. That's fine. As I've mentioned, we've dealt with obsessed 'shippers before.

If I may venture a guess, one of the things that seems to get people's backs up here is that you seldom post anything as your opinion...rather your views are stated as acknowledged facts. You must see that many, perhaps most, of the people here don't agree with you on some or all of the details. Most of us, I think, will engage in discussion of your opinions if you state them as such. That's what we enjoy doing, what we thrive on. We don't dismiss episodes, even the not-quite-up-to-par ones, with comments like, "BARF." Just doesn't seem very philosophical somehow, y'know...

;o) dub
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight...but are you? -- lunasea, 10:17:44 02/05/03 Wed

When you make the statement that "she has a love that is brigher than the fire," I can only assume that you are speaking of her love for Angel.

Then you assume wrong. The Spirit Guide said it in "Intervention." I have written about the Sacred Heart of Buffy and what I think this means. It has nothing to do with Angel.

And I don't remember ever using the word shipper to describe myself. I love Angel. I love Buffy. As of yet, I have seen no one else that even can see these characters, let alone should be with them. I loved Riley, but even Riley suffered from Buffy worship.

I will start writing IMO at the beginning and end of everything. There are no facts. Just opinions.

I didn't dismiss the episode, I dismissed the kiss. It did make me sick. I don't have to put everything in college boy.

IMO
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not trying to start a fight...but are you? -- Wisewoman, 10:42:53 02/05/03 Wed

I apologize for misinterpreting your comment on Buffy's love.

I don't remember ever using the word shipper to describe myself.

Date Posted: 10:58:29 01/31/03 Fri
Author: lunasea
Subject: Who you gonna call (spoilers Awakening)

I have seen various theories about why Angel called out Buffy's name at the end. Let's see if we can get them together into one thread.

I am a huge B/A shipper. Joss wrote 2 star-crossed lovers and that only works if they are perfect for each other. Episodes like "Forever" only serve to reinforce what they mean to each other. All the psych stuff that people want to pile on top of them about why they aren't perfect isn't what the writers put there. They tried to make the perfect couple. I will accept that. Not everyone likes the same things. Some people still think that Spuffy is a good idea.

....etcetera (this was the post where you stated that Angel had turned Cordy into Buffy in his fantasy based on her hair style and that she was wearing a purple blouse).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Existential Dilemma of Internal Self-Consistancy, or... Ooops!! -- OnM, 11:47:31 02/05/03 Wed

Lunasea, first off let me mention that I have really been enjoying your posts since you first started posting here. You have a lot of wonderful insights about both shows, and you write well.

Two things-- First, I wasn't offended by your initial post that did seem just slightly on the bashy side re: last night's Buffy, but on the other hand by now you must have noticed that ATPo in general is much less tolerant of this kind of written demeanor than pretty much any other board out there.

Your feelings are, and will be respected, even if they are strong ones, as long as you are always careful in your phrasing. It isn't necessary to put 'IMO' everywhere, but alluding to it is just considered to be a general part of the posting style here.

Item two is slightly tangential, but still relevant. One of the most puzzling things to me as a Buffy fan is the reaction of people who seem to constantly be on the lookout for inconsistancies in the series, and then turn those instances into "The show has jumped the shark! The writers are unforgivably sloppy! Marti is the devil incarnate! (Etc. etc. and so so) instead of "Hey, uhh, this doesn't make sense-- outright mistake, missing info, retcon, whazzup?"

It puzzles me not because inconsistancies can be annoying, but because the few of them that do show up (compared to the entire volume of work on the series over many years) don't seem to merit such rambunctious statements-- it just seems out of proportion to the actual damage done.

The reality is that absolute internal self-consistancy is incredibly difficult to maintain, even in shorter works. In longer works? Fugeddaboutit! Anyone who doesn't think so has either never actually created a significant body of related work, or else happens to be that exceedingly rare genius who just never makes any mistakes. (Yeah, right...)

So, this tangent brings me back to the excerpts that dub clipped out and posted in the post before this one, which clearly speak to just how easy it is to put one's foot firmly in one's mouth. So don't take offense-- we've all done this kinda thing. Every week, when I do a new ep review, I make a huge effort to try to be sure I'm internally consistent, and still fail, as someone's comments soon inevitably reveal.

So, everyone kiss and make up, 'k? No biggee.

*** ATPoBtVS&AtS - Where metaphors never fly south for the winter! ***

;-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Existential Dilemma of Internal Self-Consistancy, or... Ooops!! -- dub ;o), 13:14:48 02/05/03 Wed

Thanks, OnM...once again you provide the voice of sanity.

;o)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Existential Dilemma of Internal Self-Consistancy, or... Ooops!! -- lunasea, 13:29:21 02/05/03 Wed

Thank you for the compliments. I approach the shows from the same perspective as the writers, from the Story. All my posts are trying to figure out how the story is playing out. Both are variations on the hero's journey. Buffy is the story of the exceptional finding out how to deal with this world. Angel is the story of addiction/recovery/redemption. Hopefully every one of my posts reflects this.

I love all the philosophy stuff, but I do doubt that the writers think about things on that level. I bet they read our stuff and go "I'm not that deep." They are just telling a story. We put the fancy college boy speak on top of that story.

(anyone else predicting that in the next few AtS or BtVS there will be a reference to spoilers ruining things)

If I was bashy, it was because I was pissed. I wasn't comparing them, but saying that BtVS just didn't stay with me and I was already thinking about something else. If I had said I was thinking "Enterprise is tomorrow!" I wouldn't have gotten the same reaction. It is actually a fascinating study in human behavior (currently I am enjoying the audience reaction to BtVS more than the show any way) I am not looking forward to the "Enterprise Event" tonight. I a dreading it and haven't deciding if I even want to watch it.

Instead I am looking forward to AtS. Angelus will be entertaining, but what I really want to see is what happens when he is resouled. That is the meat of this season.

I am looking forward to the mystical forces angle of Buffy. I just wish they would get back to it.

One of the most puzzling things to me as a Buffy fan is the reaction of people who seem to constantly be on the lookout for inconsistancies in the series, and then turn those instances into "The show has jumped the shark! The writers are unforgivably sloppy! Marti is the devil incarnate! (Etc. etc. and so so) instead of "Hey, uhh, this doesn't make sense-- outright mistake, missing info, retcon, whazzup?"

We are in complete agreement. If anyone wants to criticize Marti, they will see me rant. She sits at the right hand of the Father for a reason.

I don't really care about the inconsistances or the plot contrivances such as the telepathy. They aren't that important. I will get out my gallon of spackle and make them make sense. All that matters is the story. It is fun to spackle all this stuff.

I spent tons of it on Spike. Actually came up with some good stuff. Then I realized the writers really aren't that deep and he is mainly a plot device. Now I am back focusing on the story. It is more interesting to me to see why they had certain characters/plot devices go a certain way to tell that story, than to see what deep message they are saying with those characters. It all revolves around Buffy. The story, the message is Buffy.

The reality is that absolute internal self-consistancy is incredibly difficult to maintain, even in shorter works. In longer works? Fugeddaboutit! Anyone who doesn't think so has either never actually created a significant body of related work, or else happens to be that exceedingly rare genius who just never makes any mistakes.

Especially when they don't really try. They don't write the backstory and then the scripts, like Lucas did. They leave things open so they have more flexibility. This tends to lead to inconsistancy. Angel never fed off a living human being per "Angel" but we have him feeding off criminals in "Darla." If it makes for an interesting story, who cares about such minor quibbles?

Thanks again for the compliments and support. Consistency isn't something I strive for. I am a paradox and it will show.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Only a paradox? I woulda thought you were at least a trio or quartettadox. ;-) -- OnM, 16:49:09 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You make me smile. -- lunasea, 17:30:18 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Existential Dilemma of Internal Self-Consistancy, or... Ooops!! -- Rufus, 17:54:04 02/05/03 Wed

If I was bashy, it was because I was pissed. I wasn't comparing them, but saying that BtVS just didn't stay with me and I was already thinking about something else. If I had said I was thinking "Enterprise is tomorrow!" I wouldn't have gotten the same reaction.

Good, you were pissed.....next time start a thread on that subject if you had nothing more to add to mine.....btw...I'm far from being a fancy college boy. If you had been going on about Enterprise like you have Angel I would have reacted the same way. I like both shows, from what you write you only think you do. You were rude and had nothing to add but your negative personal opinion...and you wonder why you got the response you did.
[> [> [> [> Re: Actually, I've alread seen Angel -- Rufus, 08:18:41 02/05/03 Wed

I just can't seem to care. After last night's episode one thought screamed in my head "TOMORROW IS ANGEL!!!"

That comment alone is enough for me to determine that you are a not interested in doing anything more than slam one show and glorify another. Act like a Troll I treat you like one.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually, I've alread seen Angel -- lunasea, 08:46:03 02/05/03 Wed

Thank you for passing judgment on me.

I have another policy about trolls that I apply to the judgmental.

"Do not feed."
[> [> [> [> [> There's no point, Ruf -- Wisewoman, 18:30:05 02/05/03 Wed

Personally I've come to the conclusion that there's an element of studied deliberation in the provocation of these recent posts. It's more complex than just trollery. I can't quite figure out what the purpose is as yet. If you read over some of the posts in this thread you'll see several people have gently and persuasively tried to point out what it is that's causing the friction, and the response is always, basically, "Tough." IOW, there's not ever going to be an attempt on the part of this poster to engage those of us with differing opinions in reasoned debate. I fear the motivation may be just to seek reinforcement for entrenched positions, rather than lively discussion.

The only option I can see is to follow your advice and "not feed the [not-quite-a-troll-but-not-sure-what-it-is]."

Regarding the response to this last post of your's though, I find it ironic that you are accused of being judgemental by the person who has made more judgemental statements in a couple of days than you have made in your years on the board!

Cheers,
dub ;o)
[> [> Maybe you might want to consider this! -- Robert, 10:50:42 02/05/03 Wed

If you are bothered by responses to your message, I recommend that you consider how the following might be perceived. In response to Rufus' message, you wrote;

>>> Great post, but I just can't seem to care.

Maybe you did not mean it so, but I perceived this as a direct insult to Rufus. Or, to put it another way, you just can't seem to care what Rufus has to say. Fine, but don't expect better treatment from others than that which you are willing to give out.

It is all right to dislike an episode of BtVS, or even the whole show. But it is not all right to personally attack individual writers on this board. Such attacks do not make your opinions any more appealing.
[> [> [> Re: Maybe you might want to consider this! -- lunasea, 13:50:17 02/05/03 Wed

I can't seem to care about the episode enough for such great analysis to matter. It wasn't a comment on the writer or the post. I liked the post. I thought it was insightful and well put. If I don't care about the episode, what does it matter?

It is like Star Wars right now. I just don't care about Amidala and Anikan. When they had the arena scene, I almost wanted them to get eaten so it would be over. Star Wars has become a commercial for ILM. Lucas forgot his strength was in character development.

I love Willow, but without carrying about Kennedy, that episode fell flat. I am tired of Spike and at this point an ash tray seems like a good place for him to sleep. Field Marshall von Buffy is growing tiresome and Spuffy is just stupid.

I know where all this is heading, but when it gets there, will it matter any more? S5-7 should have been one season.

I look forward to the season finale. It will be amazing. There is something wrong, though, when what keeps me watching is that and not the episodes themselves.
[> [> Redemption -- Deb, 13:50:41 02/05/03 Wed

It was an entertaining show, but my life isn't a fairy tale. Kennedy's kiss isn't going to lift my curse. No one's is. Let's get back to Angel where his redemption comes from within. I want epiphanies, not glamours.

I read your post as being about disillusionment, but, actually, fairy tales are stories that tell us (aimed primarily at children and adolescents) how to live. You state that Kennedy's kiss isn't going to lift your curse. What is your curse? Why do you feel you need your redemption to come from within?

I see this show as being about mirrors (symbols of the soul). Kennedy served as a mirror for Willow last night. A peek into her soul. What she saw was a reason to live again after living since Tara's death in the land of the dead with Tara, but she felt guilty about leaving Tara to return. She also felt guilty about killing Warren. She blamed Warren for Tara's death (He did shoot her, unknowingly.) and exacted a revenge instead of waiting for justice. Amy mirrored to Willow her own feelings about "getting away with it" and "everyone still loving her" when she felt, still, that she did not deserve love, she did not deserve to be forgiven. The kiss was a symbol of Willow coming to terms with Tara's death and her feelings of loss and guilt. The scene where Buffy punches Willow/Warren and Andrew and Dawn keep poking at her/her was a symbol also to show Willow that she was real, and that she was not the First Evil. "You're not the First." as in First Evil, but also in a way that says we all go to the land of the dead at times, and feel lost, disillusioned, not worthy. It is the same mirror that Giles received. At this point, it appears that Giles is in a great deal of emotional pain, but stop to think about it. He lost friends at the Watcher's Council.

He's afraid he will be as useless as the Watcher's Council was in fighting The First in helping Buffy, so he doesn't try to help. Then Anya, Xander, Dawn and even Andrew drove all the way out there to make sure he was OK. That he was himself, and not really dead. Yeah, they were worried about the SITs if he was the First, but no one has bothered to reach out and touch him since he's been back in Sunnydale.

And Buffy, when the soldier dude told her that the chip was disintegrating and as it was Spike would'nt live much longer, she thought he was going to die. Well she's spent most of the season thinking he was going to die. Apparently Spike has concerns that she is going to die also. (Just something else we have in common.) Many people are complaining that Buffy isn't showing concern. She, as well as Spike, are holding everthing back. Would you dare to tread emotionally forward if you thought something that was real and alive turned out to be dead, again? Lots of emotional imagery in the darkness. They are, literally, walking in the dark in the land of the dead. Something reached out to kill them both, but Buffy killed it and the darkness disappeared. What's Buffy supposed to do when she afraid? Fear has the appearance of not caring, but it is caring to the point of paralysis. It's evil at this extreme.

Everyone felt fearful and dead last night. This episode served to show them that they were alive (or going to remain so for now) and not alone. SIT's might be crazy making, but they certainly keep one's thoughts away from the fear.

Redemption is not a totally individual journey. There has to be others around to mirror back that one can be redeemed -- that one is worthy of being redeemed -- that someone cares and wants you to feel redeemed. Isn't that what redemption is about anyway? It's a rather futile effort if there is no one in the outer world to be with once its earned. Might as well remain cursed and in the dark with the dead if there is no one else around who cares or even notices.

This probably will not change your opinion of the show, but it is a rebuttal. Now, I need to believe it myself. I don't know about you, but I could really use some mirroring right now because all I can see ahead of me today is darkness. I've been here before and I know that it will end and things will settle into a place. I don't mind life changes. I just don't like not being able to see anything ahead. I try just living in the moment, but the moment happens to have me in the dark alone, and since I don't see where the light will be coming from, I feel dead.

Here's a hug, because if you are cursed and live in the dark, I'm right there next to you.
[> [> [> I REALLY need a hug right now, -- Deb, 14:06:53 02/05/03 Wed

and I would really feel alone, alone if I had to beg someone, anyone, to read the above post and just give me a "hug" reply.
[> [> [> [> Oh Deb! Sending hugs and warmest thoughts. Hope everything's ok -- ponygirl, 14:17:45 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> I've got to go -- Deb, 14:32:56 02/05/03 Wed

but if anyone feels inclined to e-mail me about anything, I'm opening the door. Isn't this just like me? Making everything "Buffy" all about me?
[> [> [> [> {{{{{{{{{{{deb}}}}}}}}}}} -- dub ;o), 16:42:45 02/05/03 Wed

(Those are hugs, hon!)

;o)
[> [> [> Interesting post , really love the mirror illusion, and a hug -- s'kat, 14:45:24 02/05/03 Wed

Actually your analysis above is the best I've seen from you in awhile. And one of the best on the board today, certainly amongst my favorites. I love the mirrors. Sorry you're going through a dark time right now. Hope things get better soon.

And Buffy, when the soldier dude told her that the chip was disintegrating and as it was Spike would'nt live much longer, she thought he was going to die. Well she's spent most of the season thinking he was going to die. Apparently Spike has concerns that she is going to die also. (Just something else we have in common.) Many people are complaining that Buffy isn't showing concern. She, as well as Spike, are holding everthing back. Would you dare to tread emotionally forward if you thought something that was real and alive turned out to be dead, again? Lots of emotional imagery in the darkness. They are, literally, walking in the dark in the land of the dead. Something reached out to kill them both, but Buffy killed it and the darkness disappeared. What's Buffy supposed to do when she afraid? Fear has the appearance of not caring, but it is caring to the point of paralysis. It's evil at this extreme.

Interesting I like that imagery. Spoke to someone on the phone a while ago who came up with the same idea. I think that's correct. Definitely feel a need to rewatch those scenes.

We do tend to hide our feelings when we are afraid of them and what they mean. Buffy and Spike are both afraid. They have both faced a type of death and rebirth and both are way past their expiration date. Spike has faced at least three types symbolic deaths so far this season:soul, lose of self when FE used the trigger, the baptism, and now the chip. It's like the writers are taking him through stages.
Buffy too - since each stage requires some sort of decision from her. The first - do I get him out of the basement - representive of the unconscious? The second - do I trust him enough to believe he is being used by the First and try to help him past it - dealing with her own temptations towards evil and their past abusive relationship, the whole addiction thing? The third - do I get the chip removed or let him die or repair it - allowing him to operate without the leash of adolescence, to no longer be her child, freeing the portion of herself she's kept leashed?

Then there's the idea you bring up about smashing the mirror - proving that Giles is not just a mirrored reflection but real by embracing him or proving Willow/Warren is not a reflection with physical contact.
Looking past what we see reflected in the mirror, past the ghost to what really is there.

I think redemption is difficult thing to understand but all our views on it are valid. What the writers views are?
As I see it? Are still open to debate. But I think for what it's worth you and Rufus are close to the target.
[> [> [> [> Seconding that! -- Wisewoman, 17:47:22 02/05/03 Wed

Great post, both deb and Rufus. Sorry I got side-tracked and didn't say it earlier.

;o)
[> [> [> Re: Redemption -- lunasea, 17:47:32 02/05/03 Wed

Redemption is not a totally individual journey. There has to be others around to mirror back that one can be redeemed -- that one is worthy of being redeemed -- that someone cares and wants you to feel redeemed. Isn't that what redemption is about anyway? It's a rather futile effort if there is no one in the outer world to be with once its earned. Might as well remain cursed and in the dark with the dead if there is no one else around who cares or even notices.

Perhaps this is where we disagree and why I didn't like the fairy tale. I didn't agree with one statement above.

Want a mirror, go into the bathroom. That is what redemption means to me, I can look in the mirror again (a great image on AtS was all the broken mirrors at Darla's and the way that David delivered those lines explaining it made my heart break) and be able to sleep at night.

What is your curse? Why do you feel you need your redemption to come from within?

That is pretty personal, so you will have to excuse me if I don't answer it. Redemption comes from within, because it does. We can project it out because we can't handle it, but it has to come from how we view ourselves. If we don't see ourselves, all the mirrors in the world won't help, because they will project back what we think we are, rather than what we are.

About a month ago, I saw myself in the mirror for the first time in a few years. I had been going through my own dark night (which is why I can analyze S6 so well) and didn't even realize what I looked like. I brushed my hair and teeth in that bathroom mirror, but I didn't notice what I looked like. What I saw shocked me. No wonder my family was worried. I couldn't even understand that they were really worried until they didn't have anything to worry about.

It has to come from us before we can see anything.

I did like the stuff you said about Giles. My own view is that Giles is acting so weird because he has lost hope. His dreams are now as empty as his conscience seems to be. He has no motivation. He took a brief stand when he saw the eye. "I cannot accept that." If he does, he will loose what little hope he has left.
[> [> [> [> Re: Redemption -- Rufus, 17:57:15 02/05/03 Wed

Want a mirror, go into the bathroom. That is what redemption means to me, I can look in the mirror again (a great image on AtS was all the broken mirrors at Darla's and the way that David delivered those lines explaining it made my heart break) and be able to sleep at night.

That is one and only one way of seeing the situation...and again you are right back to ATS comparing it to BTVS.
[> [> [> Almost missed your post -- Tyreseus, 19:46:06 02/05/03 Wed

It was an entertaining show, but my life isn't a fairy tale. Kennedy's kiss isn't going to lift my curse. No one's is. Let's get back to Angel where his redemption comes from within. I want epiphanies, not glamours.

I read your post as being about disillusionment, but, actually, fairy tales are stories that tell us (aimed primarily at children and adolescents) how to live. You state that Kennedy's kiss isn't going to lift your curse. What is your curse? Why do you feel you need your redemption to come from within?

Reminds me of Spike's lines to Buffy in OMWF,
"Life's not a song,
Life isn't bliss
Life is just this
It's living
[brushes hair back from her face]
You'll get along
[Dawn stands up]
The pain that you feel
You only can heal
By living
[Buffy looks about to cry]
You have to go one living
So one of us is living."

And then what happens? Buffy and Spike kiss. Redemption, hope, living... they all come down to emotional and physical interaction time and time again, right? If your curse is lonlieness and grief, there's only one cure I know. So I send out my strongest psychic hug for Deb, which isn't as good as a real hug, but it'll have to do.

Deb, I almost didn't read your post after working through about a dozen snarky comments above. Glad I kept going. Great insight and a fascinating take on the mirrors. CORNY CLICHE ALERT: It's always darkest just before...
[> Re: Lost Love and Fairytale Kisses (spoilers 7.13) -- ponygirl, 07:37:53 02/05/03 Wed

Great post Rufus! I loved the fairytale motif in last night's episode (even if I had problems with how it was executed). We also had Spike in a frozen state with the chip. Buffy is left with the choice of redeeming him, symbolically removing the chains we saw him in at the start of the episode, or allowing him to remain in his contained state.

As you point out there is a difference between fairy tales and other redemption stories. Here we see the external, be it the kiss, the hex, or the chip, triggering the internal conflict. But an external force must resolve it -- in most traditional stories it's the convenient arrival of a Prince -- restoring the balance as you say, and allowing a transformation to a different state. It makes the cursed person seem passive, but in reality the whole tale is symbolic of their transformation -- Willow allows herself to be restored by Kennedy's second kiss, even as Willow herself had chosen the form of her own punishment. Kennedy may seem the hero here but it really is all about Willow.
[> [> Re: Lost Love and Fairytale Kisses (spoilers 7.13) and "Ass Face" -- Rufus, 07:45:59 02/05/03 Wed

Kennedy is the hero of this one situation in that it was her kiss that redeemed the cursed Willow.

On to Spike, I see the "insult" from Riley two ways....it could either be he was simply calling Spike an ass, or it could be the writers drawing a parallel between Spike's situation and "The Golden Ass"....in time we will see.
[> [> [> Ooh can you expand? -- ponygirl, 07:58:47 02/05/03 Wed

I know that the Cupid and Psyche story is part of The Golden Ass but I'm not that familiar with the rest of the story. Isn't there an Egyptian tie-in as well? Which would be interesting with all the Egyptian references on AtS lately.
[> [> [> Re: Lost Love and Fairytale Kisses (spoilers 7.13) and "Ass Face" -- MaeveRigan, 09:31:41 02/05/03 Wed

On to Spike, I see the "insult" from Riley two ways....it could either be he was simply calling Spike an ass, or it could be the writers drawing a parallel between Spike's situation and "The Golden Ass"....in time we will see.

Or is it an allusion to Bottom in "A Midsummer Night's Dream," who has an ass's head for a good portion of the play? I confess this connection is not original with me--someone from another list pointed it out first.
[> [> [> [> Midsummer and Season 6 -- Rahael, 13:42:53 02/05/03 Wed

Actually, I was thinking of Midsummer last year, (not claiming the writers were, just me!).

The dark woods. The buffoons who keep getting entangled in the lives of the lovers.

What really made me think of it was Jonathan wearing the demon costume, eyes streaked with tears when he tries to deceive Buffy. Jonathan as Bottom. A tragic fool.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Midsummer and Season 6 -- Caroline, 20:32:06 02/05/03 Wed

So is Spike Bottom this year (he was called ass-face), with Buffy as Titania? But who is Oberon, her true love?
[> [> [> Rufus, that's a great idea! -- Caroline, 10:13:35 02/05/03 Wed

I'm a bit rushed for time so I'll make this brief.

In fact, one could speculate that the writers are alluding to the stories told in the Metamorphoses - with Cupid and Psyche being the most well-known. The themes fit quite well. Both Willow and Spike transgressed in certain ways - when they both became killers, they became monsters of a sort (just as Psyche transgressed with Cupid), they let their cruelty and brutal desires free reign (unsouled Spike and Dark Willow). They were condemned to wander alone and both desperately wish to be redeemed. Spike even has acquired a soul in his search for redemption but he needs absolution from people - one of whom is Buffy. Willow also needs absolution - for her capacity to let go of Tara and those desires and move back into living rather than existing. The main theme (to me) of the Golden Ass is that even with the slings and arrows that fate throws at us, we have an important struggle in finding some form of coherence in our own existence. We are not tied to the chains of our base desires, life is not 'nasty brutish and short' but that we can strive to know ourselves and our souls better, that we can create ourselves, our happiness, our enlightenment.

The fact that the writers have been pushing those sorts of themes to us in several episodes makes me agree that this season is about enlightenment - not just for Buffy but also for Willow, Giles and Spike.
[> [> [> [> Re: Golden Ass (and future spec) -- leslie, 12:33:53 02/05/03 Wed

What's interesting is that Apulius, in The Golden Ass, has been transformed from a human into an ass--which is what has happened to Willow, not to Spike, and Apulius is transformed back by praying to Isis, who appears very much as a Great Goddess figure (read the description of her in the original, it's lovely, and weirdly anticipating medieval descriptions of Mary as Queen of Heaven), which would be more in keeping with Willow's general orientation. And I don't see Buffy as being much of an Isis figure here for Spike.

Nonetheless, I really like the imagry of Spike and Buffy going back down into the Initiative--both for the cave/womb-of-the-earth imagry that has been repeating ever since Spike went to Lurky and then was held by the FE and for the fact that that was where their journey together really began--Back to the Beginning. And I also have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the chip is coming out. It's structurally impossible for it not to. (Famous last words? I hope not.) Just on the practical and ethical level, the chip now appears to have a shelf life of about 3 years and then it becomes fatal--what would be the point of keeping it in unless the Initiaitive is going to be making periodic maintenance visits or Buffy is willing to have Spike live now but wants him to die in another 3 years?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Golden Ass (and future spec) -- Caroline, 20:41:55 02/05/03 Wed

I was referring to Spike's chipping as the equivalent of being made an ass. It's certainly more of a stretch but I think it still fits. It appears to me that Spike is seeking something from Buffy - he is trying to alleviate the pain caused by the chip but wants to remain chipped - insurance policy against causing pain to humans. Buffy appears to be eager to assist and I agree that she will decide the chip will come out. Spike will no longer wander alone - he will know that Buffy trusts him when she elevates him from chipped souled vamp to souled vamp. That's definitely a change in status. I agree with you about the descent into the darkness/womb imagery - Spike and Buffy descended and Spike will arise newborn when Buffy grants him the favour. More famous last words.
[> [> Re: Lost Love and Fairytale Kisses (spoilers 7.13) -- slain, 13:40:28 02/05/03 Wed

Here we see the external, be it the kiss, the hex, or the chip, triggering the internal conflict. But an external force must resolve it -- in most traditional stories it's the convenient arrival of a Prince -- restoring the balance as you say, and allowing a transformation to a different state. It makes the cursed person seem passive, but in reality the whole tale is symbolic of their transformation -- Willow allows herself to be restored by Kennedy's second kiss, even as Willow herself had chosen the form of her own punishment. Kennedy may seem the hero here but it really is all about Willow.

In terms of cirumstances generating conflict, you can look at it both ways - the spell, external, causes Willow to think about her grieving for Tara, internal. But as you say it also works (more significantly, I think) in terms of Willow's internal conflict - her guilt over Warren's death, her feeling of responsibility for Tara's death (in that she was unable to bring her back with magic), and her feeling of guilt that she's 'betrayed' Tara by kissing Kennedy. All these manifest themselves in the way the spell effects Willow, and the way that it's resolved. Happy ending aside, for me it's more Gothic than it is fairytale - the external conflict is the result of the internal.

As Amy says, all she did was put the curse; so in this case, the external circumstances are minimised. Instead of the fairytale where the punishment is meted out by the curser, it's Willow who makes the choice. Amy is more of a device - Willow, effectively, curses herself.

It's obvious how Willow's guilt over killing Warren is manifest - she punishes herself by becoming him, and by apparently going through with his crime. But Willow's guilt (I keep typing 'quilt') over not being able to save Tara is represented it her returning to the scene of Warren's crime - as in 'The Body', we want to go back and change things. Willow tries to do this literally - when she's yelling at Kennedy, she's yelling at herself. Or is she also yelling at Buffy, for putting Tara in the firing line? I think that's a subconscious element.

The last element, Willow's guilt about wanting to move on, aside from the original kiss, is represented more in her alieviating it - by allowing Kennedy to kiss her. As ponygirl says above, it's not the kiss, in the fairytale sense, which breaks the spell - it's Willow, in accepting the kiss and allowing the spell to be broken. The kiss is a symbol of Willow's moving on.

All in all great episode, and great posts. Thank God Giles is real, although I did have a guilty impulse in wishing he was the FE, and that he'd left all those bloody SITs in the desert somewhere. Bad me. And Kennedy seems to be a promising character, and very reminiscent of Faith (in a good way). I can't help but wonder if she'd be more popular if she had Faith's clevage. ;o)
[> Very good post! Completely agree -- shadowkat, 09:04:13 02/05/03 Wed

Completely agree and I liked the episode. Tending to agree with you on the whole ship thing.

1.redemption refers specifically to a condition where someone has been cursed or bewitched and through certain happenings or events in the story is redeemed.

2. WILLOW...I DON'T THINK YOU DID ANYTHING WRONG.
THIS IS JUST MAGIC, AND I THINK I'M FIGURING THE WHOLE MAGIC THING OUT.
IT'S JUST LIKE FAIRY TALES.

3. INSTILL US, O GREAT ONE, WITH PEACE, WITH STRENGTH, WITH COMPASSION, WITH HOPE. THE PATH WE SEEK IS YOURS.
KEEP US ON THAT PATH.


I think these are three important points. Along with Amy's power spiel.

Gingerbread is the one episode where the demon was destroyed by not believing in the form it took to get people to harm each other. That episode also made Amy into a rat....and I think she is still running on that teeny wheel in a cage of her own making.

Yes, Amy has not moved forward. She is repeating all of her mother's mistakes. She blamed everyone else for being the rat in the cage just as her mother blames everyone else for being trapped in the trophy. It is ironic in a way that Amy has re-lived Mom's destiney. Afterall it was Catherine's spell that put her into the cheerleading trophy and Amy's that places her inside the rat.

Another bit of irony - Amy complaining about Willow being a more powerful witch - way back in Gingerbread - Willow complained about Amy being the better witch and was upset she couldn't turn Amy back.

One more thing about Gingerbread - isn't the demon in Gingerbread similar to the FE - who also is trying very hard to get people to harm one another through manipulating their perceptions of things? In Gingerbread the demon does it to the parents. This season the FE does it by planting distrust amongst the SG, first Spike then Giles....
And it doesn't have to work that hard - the SG tend to do it themselves. And come to think of it - the demon in Gingerbread didn't have to work that hard either - it just played on the hopes and fears of the parents.

Back to the three important points.

In our judeo-christian society, we have such firm views on what "redemption" should mean. But I agree, Btvs is a fantasy show not Law And Order - people don't end up in jail. Their evil acts tend to be more supernatural than natural and as such are punished by supernatural laws just like fairy tales.

I kept thinking as I watched last night's episode of the title - The Killer In Me. It referred to three people actually: Giles, Willow and Spike. All three are wrestling with something. Giles - the SG believes is a killer, the FE.
He's not. Although as Quentin points out in response to my post below - it is interesting no one has hugged or embraced Giles. He seems alone. He also seems haunted by his own demons. Spike is wrestling ironically enough with the very thing that kept him from killing things. Instead of a metaphor for say artificial soul/conscience - it is now a metaphor for the "killer" in him. Firing when he does nothing, for no reason. And causing far more pain. It is now killing him. Removing it - could unleash the "killer" in him. Although that hardly seems a big deal since the FE was able to get him to kill with it intact. A spell - unleashes the killer in Willow - which takes the form of Tara's killer. Willow as you stated believes she's killing Tara's memory by moving on, by finding someone else - perhaps this is in a way a metanarration on the fan base?
Are the fans - represented by Amy? The girl who thinks Willow is weak and got power too easily and turned evil and deserves it? And how ironic - since Amy really isn't shown working that hard for it - she goes to Rack to get her magic, she doesn't study or practice the way Willow did. It's the spell from Rack that turns her into a rat. Willow is no where near that capability in Season 3...Willow is still studying. Willow's power gets stronger with Tara actually - who aids her. It didn't come easily for Willow or quickly, but Amy can't know that - she's spent 3 years in a cage of her own making. And Amy is still dealing in some ways with memories of Mom.

It is a good thing I think that redemption in fairy tales and fantasy is not left up to human judgement or courts as it is in our society. I remain unconvinced that we are such good judges of this. If it were left up to us - I think most fairy tale creatures and supernatural entities would remain cursed and in hell. And is that really a good thing?

INSTILL US, O GREAT ONE, WITH PEACE, WITH STRENGTH, WITH COMPASSION, WITH HOPE. THE PATH WE SEEK IS YOURS.
KEEP US ON THAT PATH.

I think this is one of the themes this season and it echoes the prayer of St. Francis and Giles speech in Lessons.
All things are connected, the good, the bad, the in between, and deep down inside Willow is just Willow - the sweet girl who offered to help Buffy and Giles and Xander fight vampires even though the best she could offer was locating a map of the city seware system. Giles is just Giles - a tired man who wants to somehow do good and have love. There's a killer in both - Giles killed Ben after all and Willow killed Warren...were the crimes justified? Does it matter? What matters I think is that they'll find the good inside themselves and the strength to forgive themselves for what they've done.

Final - unrelated point - did anyone else see the metanarration on Buffy's Restless dream? Riley is the one she calls to help Spike - in Buffy's dream - Riley comes back as "Surgeon General" and is sitting with Adam. They are in the Initiative again? And Riley talks about coffee
makers that think with a gun emphasized. Just wondering if anyone else caught it.

Again great post.
SK
[> [> Re: Very good post! Completely agree -- MaeveRigan, 09:41:55 02/05/03 Wed

The Killer In Me. [...] Giles - the SG believes is a killer, the FE. He's not. Although as Quentin points out in response to my post below - it is interesting no one has hugged or embraced Giles. He seems alone. He also seems haunted by his own demons.

Throughout his tenure as Buffy's Watcher, it became harder and harder for Giles to maintain the detachment that the title "Watcher" suggests. He spoke several times about the fact that his job meant, essentially, preparing the Slayer to die. Giles may not be a murderer, but he's got to be thinking about the "potential" deaths of the "potentials."
[> [> [> Re: Very good post! Completely agree -- fresne, 12:29:29 02/05/03 Wed

Nice posts in general.

With the small priviso that I'm sick. I'm cranky. I'm avoiding the AtS/BtVS should win an Oscar (no wait an Emmy or in BtVS's case a Tony) and hit the other one over the head with it.

That somewhat crankily said, the kiss. When Angel kisses Buffy, she wants to die. When Gentleman dreamscape Riley kisses Buffy, night falls.

That duality that kisses (valentine's day fast approaching) are for love, that Judas betrayed Christ with a kiss. That Willow felt she betrayed Tara with a kiss. That sweet innocent, the fawn, blood spilled on white cloth. Of course, it would take a kiss to release her. The kiss of peace, forgiveness, of letting go. It wasn't that Kennedy gave the kiss, it is that Willow accepted it. Or perhaps, both. The giving and the acceptance of the gift.

I like the Kennedy Willow relationship, because I don't think it is true love. It's a they're in their early twenties and it's about time someone went out for reasons other than forever and always. A relationship where the participants won't get hurt.

Giles alone by the fire. Unhugged. Untouched. The last Watcher, once again taking on the burden of responsibility that he left behind. Gazing at patterns in the fire. Like the fire Buffy gazed into. A fire like her love. Like his love in a life where he has given and given and given. How not to feel the ashes. The sack cloth. Facing yet another apocalypse. Another round of deaths for girls so young. Yeah, I agree he is feeling the potentiality of their lives cut too short.

Rather say more, I'll point back to some of the discussion when Giles left last year.
A Valediction Contemplating Mourning

Okay, that's enough. Time to go off and do my Spike impression on the couch. I need tea. I need drugs. I need minions. Do think Giles would apply?
[> Re: Lost Love and Fairytale Kisses Spoilers KIM and Potential. -- Age, 10:45:18 02/05/03 Wed

Just some thoughts. Don't know how it relates to your posting except perhaps to confirm your first line about the episode having something in it.

There was a contrast being made between Amy and the Scoobs who go to check out Giles. Both Amy and the Scoobs emphasize how much power they don't have, but Amy's attitude, her attachment to power and the inequities of the world, has her turn Willow into a raging ghost, ie emphasizing death and through Warren, adolescence; while the Scoobs move towards re-establishing a connection to Giles, ie they move towards life and adulthood by taking on a task for which they(like so many young adults) may not be equipped, but must do anyway because that's life. In other words, Amy stamps her magical feet in a tantrum, exclaiming its not fair; while the Scoobs just get on with what they have to do. Note also that the mention of Dawn's not being an SIT brings up the theme of the inequities in life from 'Potential.' The intent of the two magics is contrasted also: Amy's to that which helps the SITs see more into their nature. And, we see the opposite happen at the end of their respective scenes: Amy's group leaves her alone, ie runs away, emphasizing disconnection and adolescence; while the Scoobs reunite physically with Giles (even Andrew!)

Also, there is a parallel obviously between Willow and Spike. Willow is unable to get on with her life, and when she responds to Kennedy's advances, she begins to punish herself. This psychological pain is paralleled to the actual pain that Spike feels through the chip, with the catalyst for both being introduced by an outside agent (Amy, symbol of adolescence; the Initiative, symbol of keeping people adolescent); and, if neither pain is dealt with both characters will die, Willow, metaphorically by becoming Warren, and Spike, actually. The parallel between the two characters, in this episode that mentions ghosts and ghostbusters(Who ya gonna call?) is the frozen condition they find themselves in, one unwilling to go on with her life due to her attachment to Tara; the other unable to go on with his life due to the implant restricting his ability to exercise will, a kind of death. In this regard, Spike and Buffy descend into the remnants of the Initiative to get a drug, move towards literal symbols of death(as Willow moves to the point of Tara's death), and then fight a 'ghost' demon in the dark from the Initiative, a relic perhaps of what Spike used to be. I say ghost, but the demon was physical. It may be that the more physical aspect of Spike's condition(the chip, the actual descent into the Initiative, the fight with an actual demon) is being used to contrast to Willow's more psychological condition as a way of emphasizing the metaphorical content of the fairytale structure. Still it may simply be due to Willow's killer in her being figurative in that it is directed at the memory of Tara; while Spike's killer in him is literal. Both characters, to further the parallel, are dependent on another to help them move on: Kennedy for Willow, and Buffy for Spike.

The dichotomy, it seems, is, as always between moving on, making connections, taking responsibility, living up to ones potential, ie remaining human and alive, and being stuck and disconnected from oneself and life, ie dead. This dichotomy is emphasized with reference to the First Evil through Giles who is thought to be the First, ie a ghost, disconnected and death bringer; then as Giles again, physically connected, and making it possible for the young SITS to carry on in their next stage of life as potential slayers, not only allowing them to move on, but helping them.

The ep revolves for all the characters, obviously, around the idea of ghost busting, with Buffy literally calling someone(again emphasis on communication and connection.)

Who ya gonna call?

Age.
[> [> Great to read you again, Age! Welcome back! -- OnM, 12:09:33 02/05/03 Wed

Haven't had a chance to watch the ep a second time yet, and I missed the Ghostbusters ref, but as I have noted in one of my own previous postings, I think every single ep so far this year has made at least one pointed film reference.

Have you noticed this also, and do you have any thoughts as to why ME may be doing this besides the usual 'coolness factor', such as some overall theme that might apply as opposed to just a series of singular cinematic name-drops?

Since there has been some question as to the nature of the 'reality' we've been seeing for the past half-season-- such as the possibility of a parallel or alternate Buffyverse-- are the continual movie references an allusion to this possibility?
[> [> [> Re: Great to read you again, Age! Welcome back! -- slain, 14:11:31 02/05/03 Wed

I think the allusions are a way of lightening the mood a little, making the show a bit less serious; which works as a nice contrast to the serious themes. All of the film references haven't just located the show in popular culture, they're also served, as you say, to link events in the show with fiction; Buffy's fight in the Thunderdrome, X/A/D/A's ghostbusting (not some horrible 'ship, just can't be bothered writing all the names). This all serves to make the show 'less real'. I think it allows the viewers to take a step back from the events on screen, which I personally like a lot, as it means we don't have to suffer quite so much!
[> [> [> Re: Great to read you again, Age! Spoilers S7 to present. -- Age, 20:57:52 02/05/03 Wed

Thanks.

Sorry, I can't help you much in regards to the film references. I can't say if the medium itself is relevant this year as a metaphor, or whether the films' content simply lent itself to the focus of the episodes. I could suggest that the ephemeral nature of film compares to the nature of the FE and its cast of projected characters, with the FE being like a twisted version of film, seeking to trap the living in the illusion of its projection, trap the living in the darkness of the cinema, so to speak, becoming members of its cast of dead (as opposed to film which seeks to bring characters/the dead to life/light or at least give some meaning or illumination into the life story of people, as long as the viewer can distinguish reality from fiction.) Film does indeed lend itself to the themes of reality/illusion, point of view and specifically to the sight/illumination imagery this season. And, when Buffy keys in manifestations of evil to do research on the First Evil, she has to extend the search to include movies in order to disguise her intent from Principal Wood, who in turn talks about preferring mystery movies as a kind of metanarration: the season arc described in film terms? Perhaps there is a thematic component to movies this season.


I think that your question is a valid one. Perhaps you could ask it as part of your next episode commentary and see if other posters can offer more depth to the discussion.

Thanks-Age.
[> [> Good post... -- s'kat, 12:42:40 02/05/03 Wed

I echo OM, glad to see you posting again. Your Buddhist post cleared up a lot of things for me last week and this one connected the two metanarratives on the movies' that I wondered about:

Moulin Rouge - stopping it at scene 32 on the DVD before
the chanteuse played by Nicol Kidman dies of TB, and she and her lover Ewan McGregor are still united. ie. Before Ewan the lovestruck poet has to figure out how to move on and stay connected to life when his lover has died. Willow has similarly stopped herself at scene 32, the moment Tara died. Becoming a ghost as a result - something Tara wouldn't have wanted. Something the FE and Amy do - because that keeps her arrested - in the past.

Ghost Busters - spike's line "who you gonna call" - I guess no one can innocently use that line again. Yet it works metaphorically here - since Buffy is calling in help to bust the ghost tormenting Spike. In a way that's all the chip is anymore a ghost - or the electrodes Drusilla calls burning baby fishes or in his head in Season 5 episodes.
It no longer stops him from harming others - it just harms him. It keeps him arrested as well - in the past - with a crutch. The Initiative - an excellent pun - it keeps you arrested and away from taking your own "initiative" yet
it believes it is essentially the opposite. Also interestingly enough - Riley orders the Initiative this round to follow Buffy. Not to keep her back.

again been enjoying your posts Age.

SK
[> [> Re: Age &OnM -- Angela, 13:44:38 02/05/03 Wed

Thank you, Age...have to admit that the needle-in-threaded-haystack search for your infrequent but diamondlike posts has become a weekly ritual for me.

OnM, did you notice the weird door effect when Willow/ Warren bumped into it? Do you have any idea what that was supposed to be?
[> [> [> Re: Thanks. Spoilers KIM also BS5 and 6. -- Age, 14:47:46 02/05/03 Wed

Thanks. Glad to contribute to the discussion. I must admit I've been sitting back and reading all the great postings on this board.

One contrast I missed was that between Kennedy and Amy. If we look back to the beginning of Willow's and Tara's relationship magic was natural and equated with their love. Season six made this different as Willow changed the meaning of the metaphor through her attachment to acquired magic as power. This acquired magic was equated with circumventing problems, ie an adolescent way of dealing with life. Magic thus had been changed from something natural, loving and mature(self acceptance) into an unnatural acquisition of power destroying the opportunity for a mature loving relationship. That is the context of last night's episode in which the two types of magic were employed: Amy of course used the adolescent power version of magic(with her statement actually telling us it's about power); while Kennedy used the 'magic' that is simply part of a loving relationship and which the original metaphor was meant to represent. Kennedy's lack of interest in magic implies she has matured more than Amy has; she isn't circumventing her problems. With Kennedy, the essence of what the original metaphor represented remains, but the magic is gone in order to eliminate the allusion to adolescence. Again the movement of the ep is away from adolescence and towards adulthood and life.


Thanks-Age.
[> [> Willow as Warrens Butch (arghhh spoliers?) -- WickedBuffy, 15:34:11 02/05/03 Wed

this is really wierd, I was typing a response about Willows POV (it was at the top of the board) and as I hit the submit button, it suddenly said the topic didn't exist! I searched around and in a few minutes, it had been put in the archives on the next page :< bla! so I'm sticking it in here anyway. :/

I agree with all and most of all those points. ;>

I don't think Warrens actual ghost was ever there. Warren was Willows symbol of evil, hatred, the worst. When Amy cast the spell (may or may not have had a little boost by The First), Willows subconscious chose the most reprehensible person she knew to become, to punish herself the most severely for what she saw as abandoning Tara. Looking like Warren was just a small part of it - in fact, it would have worked even if she hadn't physically looked like him. The main punishment, the worst punishment Willow could give herself was to become what she most despised - Warren. So, she was turing herself into her image of Warren.

I thought Willows Warren became even more stronger than Warren ever was. Warren was geeky, still, and his mannerisms remained geeky. The only time he seemed like an angry strong guy was when he strode into Buffys yard to kill her. But Willows Warren started being butch waay before that - slapping Amy, the walk, the absolute confidence in the gun shop. Warren always chewed on his bottom lip, which kind of negated his tough guyness - but Willows Warren didn't. Willow played Warren as she thought Warren would have behaved, but didn't h I agree with all and most of all those points. ;>

I don't think Warrens actual ghost was ever there. Warren was Willows symbol of evil, hatred, the worst. When Amy cast the spell (may or may not have had a little boost by The First), Willows subconscious chose the most reprehensible person she knew to become, to punish herself the most severely for what she saw as abandoning Tara. Looking like Warren was just a small part of it - in fact, it would have worked even if she hadn't physically looked like him. The main punishment, the worst punishment Willow could give herself was to become what she most despised - Warren. So, she was turing herself into her image of Warren.

I thought Willows Warren became even more stronger than Warren ever was. Warren was geeky, still, and his mannerisms remained geeky. The only time he seemed like an angry strong guy was when he strode into Buffys yard to kill her. But Willows Warren started being butch waay before that - slapping Amy, the walk, the absolute confidence in the gun shop. Warren always chewed on his bottom lip, which kind of negated his tough guyness - but Willows Warren didn't. Willow played Warren as she thought Warren would have behaved, but didn't have his geeky affects.

dang it!!! I just lost the rest of this friggin post!! proably too pedantic anyways...

umm, it ended with something about Willow/Warren and Willow and Kennedy arguing and getting all confused with the pronouns "he" and "she". That's when Willow started emerging again, struggling to regain her own identity as she took responsiblity for her guilt. It started before the kiss, or Kennedy would have been shot before she could get close enogh to kiss her.

The kiss? Kennedy admitted she knew nothing about magic, so she didn't know anything except she kissed Willow into Warren. Kennedy mentioned fairytales, and perhaps her whole idea of magic was based on those and vey simplistic.

And in those, you always kiss the frog to get the princess back.
[> Well done! -- Earl Allison, 11:33:58 02/05/03 Wed

You're right, I didn't care for the episode, but it didn't have much of anything to do with the Willow/Kennedy subplot (which you state and analyze nicely) -- I was too busy smashing my head into a wall over the flubs with the Initiative.

That being said -- well done! Then again, what else is new?

Take it and run.
The Touch and Feel of Buffy (7.13 KIM Spoils) -- neaux, 06:53:42 02/05/03 Wed

The Touch and Feel of Buffy..
or the Punch, Slap and Tackle (which ever sound more amusing)

Last Night's Buffy was very touchy feely. Really it was. I found the sense of touch to be of major importance of the Buffy cast, so I'm provided my own little commentary on the Physicality in "Killer in Me."

First off.
The Kiss.
Kennedy to Willow. She wanted to show how she felt towards Willow with some lip on lip action. Was it recipricol? Due to the length of the kiss, I'd say yes. What did it solve? Proved Kennedy wanted Willow.. well Duh! But it actually created "the problem."

The Punch.
Buffy to Warren's Face. But it wasnt Warren's Face, it was Willow's. While I'll give it up to reflexes, this proved a bad choice on Buffy's part. She hit and hurt Willow, didnt solve the problem.
What did? Listening/Hearing sense. It wasnt until Xander listened to Willow that He knew it was her.

The Grope
Andrew to Warren hug. To Willow, it was Andrew coping a feel. What did it do? It showed Andrew still loves. But if Andrew wants to solve his problem of being a part of the Scoobie Group, could it have confused the gang's views of his loyalties? (I'm not really sure, but I'm throwing this out there for discussion)

The Slap
Warren to Kennedy's Face. Violent it was. Why? Because it was Warren emerging. What good did it do? If we believe that Warren truly was emerging from Willow, then slapping Kennedy helped stop a reversal spell (maybe).

The Feel of Cold Steel
Warren to Gun. If touch was the sense to bring Warren fully out, then grabbing his piece was important. The gun was the phallic representation needed to make Warren, Warren. To a man, its checking yourself. Grabbing yourself.

The Tackle
Andrew/Xander/Anya/Dawn to Giles. Why? To prove Giles was not the FE. But I also thought it was similar to a family hug from the gang that hasnt received much love in a while. Giles brooding at the campsite, Andrew whining for attention, Anya and Xander both not feeling much love, and Dawn as well. The touch here could have served as a reconnection of group and group love.

Second Kiss.
Kennedy to Warren/Willow. Again, She wanted to really show how she wants Willow. If kissing her the first time brought out the killer, then I guess kissing Warren would bring back Willow. Lets just be glad that fairytale kiss worked.

So these are just my morning after thoughts on the show? Anyone have anything to add or say?
[> Re: The Touch and Feel of Warren (S6 and 7.13 spoilers) -- Clen, 07:31:03 02/05/03 Wed

just a minor thought, but I find holding a gun to be nothing like grabbing myself. I know what you mean though.

I would shift it subtly towards, "for Warren it's next to grabbing himself". For most of Warren's crime spree, he's been wanting to grab his penis. First he builds a girlfriend. Then he endeavors to attain invisibility, let us not be in doubt what one of the first things he'd do would be. Then he uses a will suppressor to go out and get his ex back, as opposed to something, say, less sex oriented, like manipulating people to go attack Buffy. Then he attains invincibility, only to set out to pick up chicks. Once Buffy crushes his "balls" (one of the best set-ups I could have thought of), then he goes out and buys the gun/penis extension.
So, I agree with you that his wiener is in his thoughts somewhere. But the gun was only a facilitator for his penis, not a replacement. With Buffy gone, he would have sought out power again, and what would he do with it? Try and get sex with it.

I have another question on Warren, but will put it in its own thread.
Willow's POV (S6 and 7.13 spoilers) -- Clen, 07:50:49 02/05/03 Wed

Was it Warren's feelings that were emerging from Willow, or was it Willow's own feelings of guilt and anger? Since the spell took shape from Willow's desire to suffer, and went away when she allowed herself to feel good about moving on, I think she was manifesting her own darkest feelings, possibly mystically and definitely subconsciously, through Warren -- Warren would be the ideal vehicle through which you could be as irresponsible and angry as you want.

In tune with that then, I got the impression watching KIM that she was running Warren the way she saw him, not entirely the way he was. There was the use of the word bitch, which Warren got in the habit of using late in the season, and the purchase of the gun. These things would have been important to Willow, his feelings on women and the smoking gun. But the FE did a much more convincing impression of Warren, complete with geek references and the need for a henchman. Willow's impression as it got "hairy", ignored Andrew (like she would have perceived in her encounter with him), and amongst other things, slapped Kennedy to compliment the "bitch" comment. But would Warren have slapped her? I'm not sure. He did bonk his ex on the head with the champagne bottle, as she was running away. But his usual reaction to female opposition was either to use magic/science, or to sneer at her. I guess it's up for debate:

Was that Warren's actual personality manifesting itself magically, or was it Willow's nightmare of Warren being psychologically played out with the aid of magic? Other than the slavish devotion to reliving the gun incident, of course, how would the real Warren have acted in those situations? (excising the particular set of circumstances from his consideration as well, such as realizing he's Willow, there is the end of the world coming, etc)
[> What really happened with Willow? (S6 and 7.13 spoilers) -- Vickie, 10:23:28 02/05/03 Wed

Clen asks "Was it Warren's feelings that were emerging from Willow, or was it Willow's own feelings of guilt and anger?"

This issue, and the whole question of what was really going on, bothered me throughout last night's episode. Why did Willow turn into Warren and what was the mechanism? I have a partial explanation, but my logic breaks down right about where my imagination and understanding do. (surprise!) Anyway, here's how I think it goes.

Willow has been keeping Tara alive in her heart, being true to the departed beloved. So long as she is "true" to Tara, in her own concept of being true, Tara isn't really dead. Tara is present to Willow everyday, in all her interactions.

You react differently to potential romantic partners when you are single, from when you are "taken." So long as Willow behaved as "taken," Tara was still alive and with her.

Kennedy kissed Willow. More important, Willow kissed her back.

This changes everything. Often, in deep grief, people have the feeling that so long as they are grieving, so long as they are "true" to the departed, the loved one is not truly gone. As soon as the bereaved start to feel normal, stop being consumed with grief, or (goddess forbid!) begin to entertain the possibility of another to replace the departed, they feel guilt. The mechanism keeping the departed present is threatened. In a sense, the bereaved feels as though they have killed the departed all over again.

This is what Willow does. She feels "I have betrayed Tara. I am not being true to her. I've killed her all over again. I'm just like Warren. I'm an evil murderer."

This triggers Amy's spell. It's not entirely clear to me what the parameters of the spell were. She says something like "I let the person's subconscious pick the punishment. Always more interesting than anything I could come up with." And so, Willow turns into Warren. In appearance at least, in the beginning.

[Small break for kudos the the two actors. AH doing Warren body language and speech patterns was amazing. Adam Busch doing Willow body language and speech patterns was beyond amazing.]

Because of the way Amy described her spell, I think we're supposed to believe that there was nothing of Warren-qua-Warren present. It was all Willow and magic. So why does Willow begin to act out of character?

Maybe she doesn't.

The first really scary thing she does is slap Amy (not Kennedy, sorry). While Willow isn't usually violent unless she's scary veiny Willow, I've wanted to slap Amy myself. Amy desperately needs slapping, or something to wake her up. Is it so very hard to believe that Willow, having given herself permission to be evil by casting herself as Warren (unconsciously remember!) might go ahead and act on an impulse she would normally control? I think Willow wanted to slap Amy, and did. She denied it, because that is what Willow does. The evil is never her, it's always someone else's fault. (Her recent acceptance of the evil she did at the end of S6 is a welcome break from this behavior. I think she's learning.)

If this is correct, and I welcome those who point out my errors here, why the gun? This is where I cannot explain Willow's actions consistently. Maybe my whole theory is flawed.

Willow (as Warren) goes to a gun shop. (Apparently it is the same from which Warren bought the gun in S6. Maybe there is only one in Sunnydale?) She buys the same kind of gun Warren used to kill Tara and injure Buffy. And she returns to the Summers backyard, performing a perfect re-inactment of Warren's speech. Kennedy stands in Buffy's position in the re-inactment, which made me scared for her in this sequence.

[Pause to wonder why Amy's teleport took so much time that Kennedy appeared in the yard in the morning. And why Willow took so long to buy the gun and arrive, from stores-still-open hours at night to clear bright day.]

Why does Willow enact this scene? She wasn't present for the original. She was upstairs with Tara. She didn't even know what was happening.

The only explanation I can find is "it's magic." Somehow, the hex Amy cast is using Willow's own vast power to fuel it. And we know that Willow's power could discover the gun shop and gun that Warren used, could reconstruct the scene from her friends' descriptions of it. Is the power of her unconscious, her own overpowering guilt and grief, forcing her to really BE Warren and perform his acts?

I really think that Kennedy was in danger there. If not for her quick thinking and Willow's strength of will (huh, slipping by that point I think), Kennedy would be dead or injured. And if Kennedy weren't there, I think Willow might have taken her own life, rationalizing that it would be better than being Warren and doing the things he would do.

As I said, I can't explain the last part. Welcoming any help. Dodging all brickbats.

P.S. Is there a loaded gun lying in the grass of the Summers back yard?
[> [> Perhaps (Spoilers 7.13) -- Sophist, 10:42:39 02/05/03 Wed

the way to see it is this:

The spell allowed Willow's subconscious to choose the form of the punishment. It chose to put her in the physical image of Warren (itself pretty serious from Willow's POV). In this sense, it was "just" a glam, but Willow couldn't reverse it because her own feeling of betrayal towards Tara was triggering it.

However, the original spell was combined with Amy's mojo at the coven. What I understood from that was that Amy was both creating and forcing a merger of Willow's and Warren's personalities. I may be wrong, but I don't think we saw any of Warren before that; just Willow's personality in Warren's body. I therefore interpret the slap as Warren, not Willow, especially since it followed Warren's favorite word.

After the incident with Amy, Warren's personality was magically active and Willow was in the position of a schizophrenic (with the added attraction that one of the personalities was the one she most hated/feared). I think it then plays out as you suggest.
[> [> [> Re: Perhaps (Spoilers 7.13) -- Vickie, 10:54:47 02/05/03 Wed

So there's a magically created simulacrum of Warren merging with and then replacing Willow's personality?

And you think that Amy pretended to do a restoration spell at the coven, while secretly doing an enhancement spell? Speaking the words of one incantation while holding the intention and form of another in her head?

I believe she's that nasty. But I never thought she was that good. More likely, her magic transformed Willow (Willow's guilt choosing the form) and then it got stuck just like Amy and the rat. JIMHO
[> [> [> [> Re: Perhaps (Spoilers 7.13) -- Sophist, 12:31:37 02/05/03 Wed

I need to re-watch, but my impression at the time was that Amy's words were ambiguous (as spells so often are). In that sense, I answer all your questions with a resounding yeah. I think.
[> [> Good points, and... -- yez, 13:43:58 02/05/03 Wed

You made some great observations. I'm going to rif on those a bit (and those of others on this thread) and add my theories. And I should qualify it with this: I'm not sure that the storyline makes any sense -- I suspect some elements were thrown in there for their "wouldn't it be so ironically cool if..." value, despite the fact that they followed no internal logic and break down if thought about too hard. So this may be an exercise in futility, and I've gotten myself very confused along the way, but...

OK, so it's made obvious that Willow becomes Warren because of her feeling that she'd "killed" Tara (by being attracted to someone else, forgetting her for a moment, etc.) thereby making her the same as Warren.

[Sidenote: I don't think feelings of guilt over killing Warren actually had any bearing on the transformation (or at least had very little bearing). It's just too obvious and easy -- Willow herself throws it out there early on as a no-brainer. And what's more, it's not subconscious at all -- Willow just out and out feels guilt over killing Warren (though she also may think it was necessary). ]

But what about the punishment factor -- if it all was just coming from Willow as Amy claimed? Amy says the spell would get Willow to "pick" her own punishment. But what specifically was the punishment Willow "picked"? I think the most obvious answer would be turning into the person she hated the most -- Warren. But I'm not sure if it's that simple.

Willow didn't just turn into Warren physically so, for example, she'd have to forever look in the mirror and see the man who murdered her lover and who was her own victim. She started turning into him psychologically, too. And that kind of complete transformation is more akin to suicide.

Or (or perhaps "also") could the punishment have been about undoing the revenge she took? Willow made sure to kill Warren, but now Warren would be back. But that's not all -- Warren would be back and again killing the woman who is caring about Willow, Kennedy.

BUT, as Willow/Warren re-enacts the scene, as you pointed out, Kennedy is in *Buffy's* place, not Tara's. This is where I really start getting confused...

I find the Buffy/Kennedy thing interesting, because doesn't it seem that if Willow felt she had killed or was killing Tara and so *was* Warren and then was proceding to re-enact Warren's murder of Tara, you'd expect Willow to actually try to kill a symbol of *Tara*? I did. I guess I'd assumed that Kennedy was this symbol. Apparently not.

Throughout the ep., Kennedy is in Buffy's role. She sleeps in Buffy's old bed, she skips out on slayer duties like Buffy occassionally tried to do early on, she sees it as her job to stop Amy, she's standing in Buffy's place during the shooting re-enactment, and then she "saves the day" (usually Buffy's role). If Kennedy is representative of Buffy, not Tara, then she's the plan-foiler and mysogynist's humiliator, right, since that's basically what Buffy was to Warren?

OK, so at The Bronze, Willow talks about there being only woman, not women, and they talk about her lack of being "out there" in the big, gay world. So is it possible that part of the desire to kill Kennedy also comes from subconscious homophobic and/or mysogynistic hatred within herself? Is it possible that some of the "Gay now!" talk was bravado, and that Willow was still holding onto the idea that it wasn't women -- it was just a woman? If we look at what Willow says to Kennedy as Warren, we can also talk about perhaps Willow feeling uncomfortable with her own sexuality. Kennedy is more outwardly sexy, and maybe Willow sees this as a bad thing? Or maybe feeling attracted to Kennedy makes Willow feel out of control and maybe inadequate; we can speculate that that was also one of Warren's issues, pretty certainly.

Also, re: Kennedy as Buffy, maybe there's also some subconscious rage that Willow still feels toward Buffy -- the same rage she felt when she was Evil!Willow and they fought? And/or more importantly maybe some degree of rage that Tara's death resulted from a stray bullet meant for Buffy. Buffy asks earlier if Willow remembered a time when things were normal ("Boring"? "Un-exciting"? I can't remember the exact word), and Willow answers no; things haven't been that way since Buffy, the slayer, came on the scene. And "because" of Buffy, Willow can't have a normal life.

All that said, my operating theory is that the FE talked Amy into doing all this, and potentially aided her somehow. Now I'm wondering if the FE could've been behind Warren marching over there with that gun; I remember finding it quite surprising that he'd done that. I mean, he was bad, but I didn't think he was particularly wreckless. I mean, how could Amy know exactly where to teleport Kennedy to to re-enact that scene? She could've put her at the front door of the Summer's house or outside the gun shop, for instance, but she didn't. Did Amy do that just to make the story more interesting? Or does it mean something that Amy knew that?

I'm also wondering if we're not going to see that gun come into play again some time.

The time warp thing is definitely weird, too, and seems too big to be sloppiness. I can't help but feeling that there has just been too much time weirdness to be flukey, like that bizarre date/time stamp in Conversations, and... I know there was another example, but it escapes me now... Anyway, maybe we should be wondering where Willow and Kennedy were during the missing hours.

I was going to try to explore the notion that Willow really was manifesting Warren somehow, not just her idea of Warren -- especially since the way she re-enacts the shooting scene strongly suggests this possibility. But I've given myself a headache already as it is.

yez
[> Re: Willow's POV (S6 and 7.13 spoilers) -- crgn, 13:02:41 02/05/03 Wed

In hindsight, I think Willow believed she was becoming Warren because she thought the spell was more than a glamour that she could control. Believing she was becoming Warren launched her into behaving more like Warren as time went on, or at least her perception of Warren's typical behavior. She didn't stick around to find out that Amy had hexed her, but ran off thinking she couldn't be prevented from turning more and more into Warren.

While watching I was confused whether Warren was really present or not up until the breakdown in the yard. At that point it was clear that Willow was the only one in the body.
A little actor/character appreciation (7.13 spoilers) -- pellenaka, 09:06:52 02/05/03 Wed

I never knew that Adam Busch was such a great actor!

He was so good at doing Willow's facial expressions and the way she talked. And he cried...
The cutting between the two of them was excellent.
He also looked like a pretty good kisser.

Also, Tom Lenk - wow!
He was both sad and happy and regretful in the same scene. We saw that Andrew really isn't evil anymore, there was no whining and he showed more dimensions.He was almost like a part of the Scooby Gang. His way of answering the phone was also really cute.

Come forward with your 7.13 love!
[> Oh, yes! Great performances! (still spoilers) -- Vickie, 12:12:54 02/05/03 Wed

I agree. Alyson Hannigan was just amazing doing Warren body language and speech patterns. But Adam Busch doing Willow's was mind-blowing. How nice to see that he has it in him. Certainly he never got that kind of range while playing Warren. He can be convincingly vulnerable, cry, and wave his arms in the air like a girl. They must have had a blast filming this episode.

Tom Lenk, well, he's so good I cannot watch him. Andrew is just so annoying that I'm with Xander in the "gag him" department. Last night was the first time I could endure the character (the whole "no more of your lies" thing) followed immediately with more geekdom and games in the car (yuck). Maybe sharing this little adventure will help the guy grow beyond his "annoying virgin" status. But yes, Lenk always seems to do a lovely job. "Oooh, steak sauce" from an earlier ep was apparently an ad lib--very funny.
The Trilogy that is S5-7 -- lunasea, 09:45:51 02/05/03 Wed

(I have an episode-by-episode analysis of S6 from the perspective of Buffy's Dark Night that used to proceed this, if anyone wants. It is really long)

To see the conclusion of Buffy's Dark Night/S6, we have to go back to the platform in "The Gift." It is really easy to say "being ripped from heaven" caused Buffy's depression, but that is a plot device and easy thing for people to use to explain it away.

Few people ever do get to the Dark Night. You have to come pretty far in order to get to it. The dark night occurs after considerable advancement toward higher consciousness. If you see "The Gift" as Buffy's get-out-of-misery-free card then nothing I will say probably strikes you. It might be an impressive display of analysis, but that is about it.

Joss wrote and directed "The Gift." It was his baby. It starts with a summary of Buffy's life and ends with her death. Nothing I have seen on the show or heard Joss say would lead me to believe that he would let his hero die in a fit of dispair. Nothing from that amazing moment when she does die leads me to believe that she died in a fit of dispair.

There was plenty that happened in her life that would cause her to dispair. Dracula tells her that her power is rooted in darkness. She has a death wish. Riley leaves. Joyce dies. Angel leaves, again. Thing is, I don't think that was to get Buffy so distraught that she wants to die. I am sure that most here would barely be able to recover from all of that and it would cause you to want to end it. If the chance presented itself, you might.

But Buffy is a hero. She isn't like you or me, as Giles tells Ben. All that dispair makes the moment when she realizes she can love that much more poignant. Think Scarlett O'Hara digging in the dirt vowing that she will never go hungry again. Would that have been a big deal if she was sitting at a 12 course meal?

All that dispair makes Buffy think that she cannot love. I believe we can take what the Spirit Guide says to be canon. We cannot accept Spike or any other normal character as unfailable, but things like Whistler or the Oracles are.

"Intervention" sets up S6. It is written by Jane Espenson. She writes 6.03-6.05. That doesn't happen. Two writers get 2 episodes back to back (Marti and Joss), but 3 is unheard of. The Guide's message is so crucial that it is the title of S5's finale. This cannot just be dismissed.

Buffy does. So does a lot of the audience. If you want a fun show for escape, that works. If that is what you want, why even come to this board? Buffy focuses on the death part. So does the audience. That isn't the whole message.

FIRST SLAYER: You think you're losing your ability to love.
BUFFY: I-I didn't say that. (sighs) Yeah.
FIRST SLAYER: You're afraid that being the Slayer means losing your humanity.
BUFFY: Does it?
FIRST SLAYER: You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.
BUFFY: (surprised) I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?
FIRST SLAYER: Only if you reject it. Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift.
BUFFY: (pause) What?
BUFFY: I-I'm sorry, I, I'm just a little confused. I'm full of love, which is nice, and ... love will lead me to my gift?
FIRST SLAYER: Yes.
BUFFY: I'm getting a gift? Or, or do you mean that, that I have a gift to give to someone else?
FIRST SLAYER: Death is your gift.
BUFFY: Death ...
FIRST SLAYER: Is your gift.
BUFFY: Okay, no. Death is not a gift. My mother just died. I know this. If I have to kill demons because it makes the world a better place, then I kill demons, but it's not a gift to anybody.

First, the question that everyone has been asking is answered, and few realize this. What does the soul do? The soul contains our humanity. That much is canon, but what does this mean? According to the Guide "Love." Notice the transition from humanity to love. To her they are one and the same. I am sure this will be expanded on S7.

Second, was Dracula right? Is the Slayer's power rooted in Darkness? Maybe it might have been earlier, but by this point, the answer is no. The Darkness of the Slayer is not what causes Buffy to pull away from love.

Third, the Guide never says whether Buffy is getting a gift or giving one or why it is a gift. A gift has to be given. If Buffy's death is a gift to her, her get-out-of-misery-free card, who gave it to her? The PTB? If this is the case, either Willow couldn't bring her back or there would be serious consequences to Willow. Somehow I don't think you get away taking away something the PTB have gifted to someone, if it can be taken away.

This message is too important to S5-7 to just dismiss it with Buffy's dispair. They are a trilogy.

This message comes back to Buffy as she is standing on the platform. She doesn't look too happy about the prospect of dying. If it is such a get-out-of-misery free card and wants to die, why isn't she happy about this?

Then something dawns on Buffy. Joss doesn't tell us things. He shows them. Actually SMG shows them and she does a great job. If Buffy' dying now is her gift, then that means she CAN love. Her ability to love will lead to her gift, it is leading her to her gift on that platform. If that part of the voiceover was included, it would have been obvious and cheesy. Instead what Joss wrote was amazing and moving. Tissues all around.

Instead of her jumping up and down going "I CAN love" that is what her final words are all about, love. Words that felt weird for her to say and led her to find the Guide are her parting words to everyone.

Buffy's voice over is

Dawn, listen to me. Listen.
I love you. I will *always* love you.
But this is the work that I have to do.
Tell Giles ... tell Giles I figured it out. And, and I'm okay.
And give my love to my friends.
You have to take care of them now.
You have to take care of each other.
You have to be strong.
Dawn, the hardest thing in this world ... is to live in it.
Be brave. Live.
For me.

People focus on the hardest thing in this world, not the love.

Compare what Buffy said to Dawn and what the Guide said to Buffy.

Guide:
Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature.

Buffy:
the hardest thing in this world ... is to live in it. Be brave. Live. For me.

How different are they?

Live..love. Just one little letter separates them.

At that platform, Buffy made considerable advancement towards the higher conscious.

That is what leads us to S6.

Bargaining or Afterlife set up Buffy's resurrection, but they do include some important things.

First is the platform. When Buffy snaps out of the shock of being resurrected, she heads for the platform from The Gift (nice of the Sunnydale authorities to leave that really tall not well built structure standing all summer). Buffy realizes she can love. It is pain, but she can do it.

She says in Bargaining: It was so ... clear ... on this spot. I remember ... how ... shiny ... and clear everything was. (shakes her head) But ... now ... now...

Poor Buffy. She figured something out, but it wasn't enough. She realized she could love, but she hasn't figured out how to do the other part of the Guide's message. There was more to it. Love, death AND strength. "the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature." At the end of the episode, the tower falls and what she discovered falls with it. She cannot go with love because of all the pain.

We get S6 because Buffy doesn't know how to forge strength from pain yet. The Slayer isn't pain. She isn't darkness. She is forging strength from pain, light from darkness. Buffy has just started to learn that.

The realization at the end of Grave is that.

"Things have really sucked lately, but it's all gonna change. And I wanna be there when it does. (starting to cry again) I want to see my friends happy again. And I want to see you grow up. The woman you're gonna become. Because she's gonna be beautiful. And she's going to be powerful. I got it so wrong. I don't want to protect you from the world. I want to show it to you. There's so much that I want to show you."

Buffy is forging strength from pain. The world is a dangerous place, but if she hides from it, tries to escape from it, tries to protect Dawn from it, she is pulling away from it. Just like the Guide says she does. By saying she wants to show the world to Dawn, she is forging that strength.

An example from my own life. I have 2 daughters. There are some really bad elements out there what would like to harm them. I could try to protect their innocence and their physical bodies and lock them in their rooms. What parent hasn't wanted to do this?

OR I can show them the world and its dangers. I can teach them about what sort of things boys thinks about or not to go off with strangers and what sort of games strangers might play to gain their trust. I can give them the weapons to handle what the world throws at them, such as self-esteem and discernment. By doing that, I am making my girls much stronger.

"Show it to you." Great idea. Does it mean take her to art museums and show her the beauty there? That is one interpretation, but S7 what do we see?

In "Lessons," after the girl in Instanbul dies, we get Buffy showing Dawn the world. How is she doing this? She took Dawn on patrol and is teaching her about slaying. This isn't something that she is going to let Dawn do, but she shows her why she cannot. That is the realization at the end of S6.

Buffy makes this realization and it leads out of her Dark Night. She realizes how to forge strength from the pain that love causes and doesn't pull from it.

That is Dark Night, coming far enough along, but not quite there. It is embracing love, not pulling from it. In Dark Night we pull from it so much that we don't feel.

Will the show get rid of Buffy's ego? Doubtful. That stuff is in all in the metaphors they use. It won't come out directly. Will Buffy balance being a Slayer with other roles? Doubtful. I think the darkness angle went away when ASH decided to limit his participation on the show, if it was ever there.

What Buffy will do is forge strength from pain. That is what her Dark Night is all about. Her refusal to see that she could do this led to her depression.

When I talk about love as pain, I am not talking about hurt feelings, like Spike gets because of Buffy. I am talking about something much more profound. I offer as an example, Jesus (and remember I am a Buddhist, not a theist of any sort). The ultimate act of love was hanging on that cross. The pain of Jesus wasn't in the physical pain. Focus on that and you miss the beauty of him. Jesus' concern, even though he is dying and in severe physical pain, is not for himself. It is for the souls of those who are crucifying him. "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." The pain of seeing your loved ones engaging in harmful behavior and not being able to prevent it, that is true pain.

I cannot watch the news, especially since Bush was elected. I cannot bear to see the country I love so much go down this destructive path. I cannot bear to see the World Order that this country set the precedence for crumble because we won't be part of it.

Put yourself in Buffy's position. Willow is engaging in self-destructive behavior. Buffy loves Willow. Not ever Tara could bear to watch Willow go down that path. Buffy went numb to avoid the pain of love.

Dawn is the same way. Talk about a pain. As soon as Buffy comes back, Dawn starts dumping on you. When you see that, it hurts. It hurts Buffy how her friends took her death. In heaven she "knew everyone I cared about was all right." She gets back and they aren't. She goes numb to avoid the pain of loving people who aren't all right.

ME might not be using the Dark Night for a model, but the probably are using the message from the Guide as it.

So we come to S7. We get Lessons, where Buffy is showing Dawn the world. She and Dawn are getting along great. Buffy has forged strength from pain and can freely love Dawn.

Beneath You. Spike freaks Buffy out. Not ready to show compassion to the crazy guy. This comes back to bite her on the ass. She might not have romantic love for Spike, but she does have feelings--charity, gratitude, appreciation, compassion, etc. She cannot bear to watch what he is going through. It might not be the nicest thing, but it is understandable.

Same Time, Same Place. Buffy loves Willow and the scene at the end is beautiful. Strength from pain. Oodles and oodles of love.

Help. Buffy risks pain getting involved with a girl she barely knows. She does get hurt, but she continues on. She keeps trying to help kids as counselor.

Selfless. Buffy has to shut down in order to avoid feeling pain when she has to kill her friend, Anya. Because she does this, Anya almost dies. She brings up killing Angel and the intense pain that she felt then. She hasn't found a way to forge strength from pain when it comes to slaying, yet. Who wants to bet that she does later? Just cause we can't have cross-overs doesn't mean we can't have flashbacks.

Him. What a beautiful moment. Buffy manages to overcome magic to save Dawn. We know how powerful love spells are. More forging strength from pain. The pain of seeing Dawn in pain allowed Buffy to have the strength to overcome the love spell. Wow!!!!

CwDP. Holden just creates a lot of pain. Thing is remember what S7 is, forging strength from pain. My prediction is that all the pain Holden created will be forged into strength in order to fight the First. Same thing with what is going on with Spike.

Sleeper. Buffy finds out what Spike has been doing and doesn't run from it. She is now forging strength from pain. If she had done it earlier, the First couldn't have used Spike, but better late than never.

Never Leave Me. More strength.

Bring on the Night and Showtime: Oops. We get Field Marshall von Buffy. As Hanson asked "Where's the love?"

Potential: Again not feeling the love here Buffy.

Killer in Me: Someone else do it. Strength from love. Do we need a cliff hanger EVERY episode?

So that is what Buffy has been doing now that she is out of her Dark Night. She needs to get back to her nature if she is going to kick First non-corporal ass. She will. Probably right before Angel shows up. Then the two of them can be loving, giving, forgiving as they save the world, again.
[> Wow! -- Drizzt, 11:19:52 02/05/03 Wed

Very cool;)

Close to Manwitches massive post in things to go "hmmmm"

Please do add the "episode by episode analasys of S6 that used to precede this"

Thanks;)
[> Fascinating. Do you have a link to the ep by ep analysis? I'm interested. -- OnM, 12:26:24 02/05/03 Wed

[> Re: The Trilogy that is S5-7 -- Angela, 13:38:19 02/05/03 Wed

I would be also. I'm not posting much currently (work overachievement) but I am following all the posting with some interest. If you'd like to email it, my ATPo avatar is:aliera9916@aol.com

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