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Has the WB given up on Angel? -- Darby, 09:15:28 02/04/03 Tue

Watching TV Sunday, it seemed like every other ad break featured a promo for Everwood, or 7th Heaven, or both. Reba got some play, and Grounded for Life, and I'm sure some of the other WB shows...but no Angel.

Since the Rain of Fire and the move to Wednesdays, have they promoted the show at all? Have they decided it's a lost cause? Has it not occurred to them that if Buffy ends, Angel will pick up viewers who didn't follow the spin-off while the first string was still on the field (and how mixed a metaphor is that??)?

Should someone try to organize a pre-emptive campaign to prod the WB to keep the show around? Should I stop putting up posts that are just a series of questions?

[> No, yes, no, yes, no! -- Caroline, 09:20:45 02/04/03 Tue

[> Re: Has the WB given up on Angel? -- WickedBuffy, 09:32:03 02/04/03 Tue

But they are great and important questions!

And, maybe someone reading this board has those answers - I know I'd like to know. I don't want to worry about Angel, too! :<

[> Re: Has the WB given up on Angel? -- SugarTherapy, 10:33:59 02/04/03 Tue

Actually, if Buffy ends, apparently so will Angel. From what I've heard, David said that if Sarah leaves, he will too.

Sugar

[> [> Re: Has the WB given up on Angel? -- maddog, 11:04:37 02/04/03 Tue

That's rather odd. The shows are not only seperate entities right now, but they're also on different networks. I'd be surpised if the WB gave up on a show as popular as Angel...I mean, it's not that far into it's tv career. I'll bet they could sign on for a good 3+ more years(especially if some of the Buffy writers move over).

[> [> [> A show as popular as Angel? -- Dochawk, 11:10:33 02/04/03 Tue

They gave up on Buffy which was (and remains) far more popular and obsessive. n fact, Angel pulls in pretty mediocre ratings. I think that moving angel to a death slot as Wednesday at 9 is (though not as bad as a Thursday slot) shadows what the WB thinks of it. DBs contract is up at the end of the season (which is strange because usually the star is tied to a show for 5 years for syndication reasons) as is CCs. I think we may be seeing an end to the Buffyverse as we know it, with just a spinoff left for next year. But, its all speculation until SMG decides she wants the sure thing and returns and if Joss also returns (remember his contract for both shows is also up adn who is really most important?? Do you want to watch Buffy or Angel without Joss's input?)

[> [> [> [> WB's budget concerns..... -- Briar Rose (no proofreading time), 17:16:41 02/04/03 Tue

Part of the reason that Wb let BtVS go without too much fight was ratings versus production costs. And since Angel is also racking up the production costs and the ratings haven;t raised as they had obviously figured - I would say that the WB is looking at cutting loses. They already have "Smallville" FX to pay for and it appears to be doing better in the ratings than Angel.

And I agree with Dowcheck... We've all seen the problems that arise in the Buffy-verse when Joss is away, so can you imagine a whole season without Joss riding herd on the DG's and other writers with personal "issues" throwing all of them on the wall in BtVS or AtS? Yikes! Holy, Psychodrama Bat Man!

[> [> [> [> [> Don't know if this means anything, but... -- parakeet, 01:51:18 02/05/03 Wed

There is a questionnaire/interview with Joss Whedon in the current issue of SFX. Most of his answers are jokey, natch, but not all. When asked if this is Buffy's final season, he says, "I hope so." When asked if this is the end of Firefly, he says, "I hope not." When asked if this is the last season of Angel, he says, "No."
Of course, this might not mean anything. I have no idea when this interview took place.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I was under the impression -- Deb, 08:10:46 02/05/03 Wed

That he had a contract with UPN to carry Angel for two years if the WB didn't pick it up. Also, there are other contract lengths than just 5 years. . . Three year.

[> There were a number of ads last week -- CW, 10:56:01 02/04/03 Tue

including the tag line "see Angel on its new night." I don't remember which dates and times they ran, but they were difinitely for last week's episode. I haven't watched anything on the WB this week, so I can't say for the future.

O/T Was it just me or was last night's Miracles really bad, like an extremely paranoid episode of X-files?

[> [> I thought last night's "Miracles" was great! -- Rob, 11:03:56 02/04/03 Tue

...and I wasn't sure I was gonna continue watching after the first episode, of which I liked the darkness and atmosphere but just wasn't sure.

But re: Angel commercials, I saw a bunch too over the past week, especially during the 10 o'clock news. I was actually quite heartened by it. Fingers crossed for season 5!

Rob

[> [> Re: There were a number of ads last week -- Darby, 11:12:03 02/04/03 Tue

Thanks, I hoped there were still some ads somewhere.

Here's another question - is it going to be a terrible faux pas to start Miracles threads? It is David Greenwalt, so it's kind of in the right ballpark...

And yes, I thought it mostly sucked, although it was one of the best parts anybody's given Ann Cusack in a while. Her subplot was the only really effective thing in the show - even knowing how it was going to play out, it was satisfying to see it.

The more I see shows like this, the more I suspect that X Files owed much of its unique charm more to David Dukovny than to Chris Carter. Miracles needs some of light touch, dammit! It's very tricky to be disturbing and hold an audience - right now it's disturbing in a repulsive kind of way.

- And it needs plots whose turns you can't see coming from a mile away!

[> [> [> Re: There were a number of ads last week -- CW, 11:28:19 02/04/03 Tue

I agree completely about Miracles. Ann Cusack's bit was a bright spot. I thought the little girl was okay, and the flight attendant way over the top for this early in the show. Couldn't figure out why the government agent would invite the group to the scene, considering his attitude once they got there. And the rest was, as you said, all too predictable.

[> [> [> How dare you hijack your own thread! -- Robert, 12:03:46 02/04/03 Tue

>>> ...is it going to be a terrible faux pas to start Miracles threads?

I liked the first episode. I haven't yet viewed my tape of last night's episode.

>>> The more I see shows like this, the more I suspect that X Files owed much of its unique charm more to David Dukovny than to Chris Carter.

I agree with your take on Chris Carter, though I don't think we should deprive him of his accomplishments for getting the X-Files produced and shown in the first place. I just don't believe that the X-Files would have lasted more than a season without Dukovny.

Miracles cannot be all darkness and despair. This is primarily what killed Carter's other shows. Even when BtVS and AtS become black with despair, there were always the light and personal moments.

[> [> [> Miracles -- Masq, 12:28:44 02/04/03 Tue

Here's another question - is it going to be a terrible faux pas to start Miracles threads? It is David Greenwalt, so it's kind of in the right ballpark..

I see "Miracles" as being in pretty much the same category as "Firefly". It's as welcome as any OT topic, but if the number of threads increases after new episodes, feel free to create a voy board for it and I'll link to it above. : )

[> [> [> [> OT - Re: Veritas - I was hoping but last night... -- Brian, 12:43:21 02/04/03 Tue

There were nine moments in last night's episode that just so stretched my sense of credulity that it made me shake my head in despair and mutter, "Nine strikes, this side is out!"

[> [> [> [> [> I'm with you Bri, only worse! -- Wisewoman, 15:12:05 02/04/03 Tue

I thought I'd try it last night 'cuz people here talked about it, but I couldn't even get through the teaser!

"Sorry, son, it's one dead or three dead, and you're a spoiled, self-centered idiot anyway. Here...fall to your ignominious doom on the airbag in this gigantic soundstage, where we always train before going on a new Quest! And for authenticity, we get somebody to blow artificial snow at us through huge soundstage fans while we're training..."

Give me a break.

;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry, Dub. My bad. -- CW, 19:45:07 02/04/03 Tue

If I'd known Niko was going to do a return engagement as the world-champion snotty teen, who does everything he's specifically told not to, and out-whines season five's Dawn at her worst, I wouldn't have been so generous with it last week. I honestly thought they'd tone all that down. The first show was sorta cute. This second one just got dumber, and more annoying and dumber. Oh well, back to TV off on Monday evenings!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm with you Bri, only worse! -- s'kat, 21:09:13 02/04/03 Tue

Would agree. The first - pilot episode - was better. Veritas reminds me a bit of Young Indiana Jones meets MacGuyver. It makes me miss Firefly even more.

Wonder if it will catch on?

[> My concern -- lunasea, 12:37:55 02/04/03 Tue

They haven't reached the magic 100th episode. I hope that they still get syndicated and put back to back with Buffy again. It is still the best way to watch S4/S1 and S5/S2. The shows can stand alone, but viewed together they are that much better. Not just in terms of plot/universe, but even the tones compliment each other.

I hope that all the new babies at ME are having fun with their proud parents and if said parents want to spend more time with their kids, great. TV is a demanding business. I look forward to any projects they come up with and feel lucky to be graced with any of their time.

[> [> Re: My concern -- manwitch, 14:48:28 02/04/03 Tue

I agree. Its been a joy to watch these shows unfold. It seems that both stories are, however, nearing a sort of internally generated conclusion. They are wrapping up, so to speak.

It might be the perfect time to make the jump to film. Smaller stories, smaller time commitments, bigger budgets, bigger revenues, bigger special guest stars, foul language, nude scenes. It'd be perfect. Something along the lines of Star Trek II, III, IV, and VI. Which were just sort of longish "old" Star Trek episodes, but with swear words. The Buffyverse crowd could pull that together. And it would seem to be a format they would all like to pursue.

Probably wishfull thinking. Maybe they're just done with it.

[> [> [> Re: My concern -- Dochawk, 14:54:30 02/04/03 Tue

Just interested, would you consider a new buffy film written by Joss with SMG etc canon? How about if it was written by marti?

[> [> [> [> Re: My concern -- manwitch, 15:33:40 02/04/03 Tue

Yes and no.

If she's playing Buffy, and it purports to be the same story, and makes sense within the parameters established by the TV series, then sure, just like I accept the four Star Trek movies I mentioned as part of the old Star Trek series. If it attempted to make its own story, but was just using the same characters and general ideas, but shared no continuity, for example the Temple of Doom in the Doctor Jones movies, then I would set it aside in terms of "canon" but would go see it because, well, I mean Sarah. Come on. I'd see pretty much anything she was in. Except, oddly enough, just about every movie she's actually made.

Even so, Buffy movies would have to be able to stand independently from the TV series for a couple of reasons. First, they would be trying to reach a larger audience that has never allowed Buffy to expose herself to them. (hmmmm) And secondly because, as I mentioned in my response to lunasea, I think the stories that the TV series are specifically about are coming to an end as a result of their own arc, not due to any external forces such as ratings or departures of cast members. So the Buffy movies would have a certain degree of separateness from the series, even moreso than is the case with Trek, which was always just a bunch of stand alone episodes anyway, rather than multiple episode arcs playing into a still longer arch-arc as is the case with Buffy and arguably Angel.

Fray isn't about Buffy. From what I understand, its about later. Just as my brother says dessert should not be made of vegetables, so I say that Buffy canon should not be made of things that aren't about Buffy. Even if it develops the Mythos, which is not only well and good, but cool and interesting, the degree to which that mythos is relevant to Buffy should be included in Buffy. And I suspect will be, because he knows his major audience is watching the TV show, not reading the comic. So while it may all be true and informative, I wouldn't call it "canonical." At least not about Buffy. Maybe about the Buffyverse, but that's something else again. The author wouldn't matter to me, as long as it was Joss sanctioned. If Marti wrote it and a bitter lawsuit ensued, then maybe I'd feel differently.

[> [> [> [> [> So this is where our difference of opinion lies, and it isn't different after all that -- Dochawk, 16:34:07 02/04/03 Tue

Boy, we really have to define our terms here, I am interested in the Slayer Mythos of which Buffy is the central figure, you are interested in Buffy the TV show of which the mythos is an organizing feature. From your point of you, Fray isn't canon. From mine it is. And both make sense to me from those respective points of view. As I am looking at it, thats the total difference in our arguements.

[> [> [> [> Re: My concern -- Vickie, 16:26:33 02/04/03 Tue

Any post-TV Buffy film (not talking about Kristy Swanson here) is going to have the same problem that the X-Files film did, and to a lesser-extent the Trek films.

No, I'm not talking about crappy writing. That's a whole other debate. Start your own thread. I'm hijacking this one.

Any film based on a TV show needs to do a couple of things: 1. Keep the rabid-er, loyal fans happy, 2. rope in lots and lots of new audience.

Trouble is, there's a LOT of backstory. Any new viewer will need to know Buffy 101: What's a slayer? Who's this Watcher wank anyway? Vampires are real? Boca del Infierno? Vampire mythos must be explained to a certain extent. Why are some demons not for slaying? If she's the Chosen One, why are there two? (if there are, by then)

Add to this seven (or more? please?) years of character development and interaction. Why is it funny when they mention turning invisible? Why is it amusing and touching when Xander mentions yellow crayons for gosshake? What do you mean, vampire with a soul, and why does that keep one of them from being happy and not the other?

This is a TON of exposition. We could build Giles a new library and let him have at it for the first 2-hour film. And nobody would watch. Joss and Co. do exposition pretty darned well, usually, but even they would have a problem with this much.

Meanwhile, the er, loyal fans (us) want none of this. We want them to EXTEND the world and the story beyond what we've already watched between twice and twenty times. WE KNOW about souled vampires. Don't waste time explaining that Anya used to be a demon!

I'm not saying that they cannot do it, maybe even well, But it's going to be a huge challenge to contrive a story that allows room to keep both groups happy.

I'll go anyway. I even went to the X-Files film.

[> [> [> [> [> "Start your own thread. I'm hijacking this one." ROFLMAO! Quote of the Week!! -- Rob, 16:57:36 02/04/03 Tue

[> [> [> Re: My concern -- lunasea, 17:13:34 02/04/03 Tue

I agree that both shows are wrapping up of their own accord. As my daughter's bed time story says "But stories all have endings."

There are a few little things left for Angel to deal with, but this season really will take care of his big issue (speculation. I am completely unspoiled from here on in. It feels good. I am singing Madonna's "Like a Virgin" on the inside for tomorrows episode)

I wonder what the new movie would be called. I would stay away from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" for 2 reasons. 1, they need to distance themselves from the movie of that name and 2. they really need to include Angel and AI in it.

Hopefully it will make a great franchise and they will name it like the Bond Movies, just after the movie, not the franchise. The first one can be called "Crossover" and deal with time or dimensions crossing over, but can really be the huge crossover between AI and the Scoobies that we all want to see in full glory.

Joss has said he wants to go to movies and is pretty tired with TV. He may do a few projects first, but I have no doubt that in a few years there will be some Buffyverse movie.

[> Buffy & SMG wield da' p-o-w-e-r!! -- WickedBuffy, 17:05:05 02/04/03 Tue

So, now two shows, most of the casts and crews of the two shows, the caterers, the laundry people everyone... are waiting on Gellers decision? Her choice in our universe seems as powerful to affect lives and families as Buffys do in Buffyverse!

What pressure! or not, I dunno. They talk about being a big happy family, and this is show biz and and wow - life imitates "art".

(PS see? I said? "most" because some people already let the show know their plans.)

or is all this some big secret plan between Joss and Geller to create a stir for marketing purposes? ::duck::

A big question asked with a small voice... -- Ronia, 14:20:14 02/04/03 Tue

I missed a few eps of buffy...and I'm not quite sure how she has become the "active" slayer..the one who dies and then more get activated...what ever happenned to the Faith line..was there a memo? Did Faith.. Or the council...or.. Dangnabbitt what's going on?! sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum already, but I didn't catch it.

[> what a wonderful subject line -- manwitch, 14:30:53 02/04/03 Tue

There has been nothing within any Buffy episode yet to conclusivily suggest either that the line had transferred solely to Faith or that, if it had, it returned to Buffy.

The claim that the line rested with Faith is from Joss Whedon as himself in an interview.

Buffy talks to the protos as though her death would call one of them. That may or may not be what she really knows or really believes.

[> There WAS a memo...but I think we've been asked to disregard it. -- cjl, 14:35:13 02/04/03 Tue

Joss and other members of ME have stated in interviews that, no question about it and put money in the bank, the line goes through Faith. When Buffy died in "The Gift," no new Slayer would be called.

So what happened? Are Buffy and the Scoobs:

1) Misinformed, and believe a third slayer is running around somewhere? (But...wouldn't a new Slayer have arrived in Sunnydale by now?)

2) Misinformed, and believe Buffy's resurrection blocked the call for a new Slayer? (But...she was dead for three months. I always thought The Call was immediately after the previous Slayer's death.)

3) Simplifying things for the SITs? (I don't think. The Scoobs--even Giles--have made the same assumption about the process of succession in previous seasons.)

In short, I have no idea. It seems to be a continuity glitch, but when a certain cleavage-y slut bomb comes back in 7.18, we might get a better idea of what's going on.

[> [> Can we vote on which will be the returning cleavage-y slut bombs? -- Darby, 14:41:42 02/04/03 Tue

I know there aren't supposed to be spoilers in the subject line, but it's hard to believe that anyone here doesn't know this one...

I vote for Ethan Rayne.

[> [> [> Ummm...Darby - where's the cleavage in your choice? -- Caroline, 14:58:24 02/04/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Between his big squishy frontal lobes? -- Darby, 15:35:21 02/04/03 Tue

It just seemed appropriately dadaist.

[> [> [> Mmmmmm....Ethan Rayne. -- cjl, 15:15:06 02/04/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Ethan Rayne... That's one BtVS actor I'd love to bite! -- Briar Rose (who's Spike?), 17:08:19 02/04/03 Tue

Willow has suffered enough -- 110v3w1110w, 14:37:05 02/04/03 Tue

end the willow sufferage now damn it what is wrong with these people that write the show do they think that willow suffering = ratings ??? where is the return to the happy funny buffy of old that they promised us ??? each episode is getting harder and harder to watch i like emotion in my programs as much as the next person but this is getting out of hand i don't like being upset this much when i watch a show i may have to stop watching. sorry about the ranting

[> maybe she needs it (spoilers for this weeks ep, 7.13) -- Clen, 15:45:55 02/04/03 Tue

It's possible that the suffering is necessary to come to grips with her recent past without simply negating it. It's entirely reasonable to me for her to deal with the guilt and anger over Tara before moving on. On top of that, she came through the suffering at the end, might I add, the ONLY one to resolve their issue by the end of the ep. So, you should be liking this one, right?

[> Re: Willow has suffered enough (spoilers for the killer in me) -- Alison, 19:26:04 02/04/03 Tue

Tbis is exactly what Willow needed...rather than denying her actions and her feelings about Tara's death, she was forced to deal with them...she won't ever just get over this, but the events of tonights episode were a huge step.
And Alyson Hannigan did an amazing job--i couldn't stop crying during that scene...
at any rate, i wouldnt say that is unnecessary suffering...Willow has to understand her actions, atone for them, and come to terms with her greif.

[> Must you complain every time Willow feels a pang of guilt for almost destroying the world?!? -- Rob, 19:28:16 02/04/03 Tue

[> [> Yes I Must -- 110v3w1110w, 01:37:46 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Must you complain every time Willow feels a pang of guilt for almost destroying the world?!? -- lunasea, 06:27:33 02/05/03 Wed

She hasn't remotely approached Angel level guilt yet.

It hasn't even been a year yet either.

After she becomes dark brooding girl for a hundred years, then I will say it has been too much.

In the Buffyverse, this has been nothing.

[> [> [> Agreement -- Malandanza, 07:53:37 02/05/03 Wed

I have to agree. Willow's progress towards responsibility continues to be excruciatingly slow. I didn't see much evidence that Willow really understands that the murder/torture of Warren was wrong (although there was a good scene with Andrew confronting Warren showing that Andrew has realized his actions were wrong) -- most of the episode seemed to be about Willow "forgiving" herself for wanting to sleep with Kennedy. She saw herself as Warren because she believed she was being unfaithful to Tara's memory, not because she had murdered him.

Amy's curse was triggered and ended by a kiss.

The final resolution of the Warren/Willow identity merger was with Willow realizing that she could be both faithful to Tara's memory and have a new romantic interest.

There were references to the murder, but they passed almost unrecognized -- we didn't see Kennedy recoiling in horror when she found out Willow had killed him (but Kennedy doesn't know all the details) and we didn't see Willow brooding about how wrong it was to kill Warren.

Over all, I'd say Andrew was the one who made the most progress towards repentance this episode while Willow made the most progress towards getting on with life -- leaving all that unpleasant stuff behind her. I don't see any brooding or existential literature in her future.

I do think that Kennedy and Willow will be a couple by the next episode (although it would be interesting if Kennedy lost interest after her conquest).

[> Oh, so you think she's suffered enough? -- ZachsMind, 20:32:07 02/04/03 Tue

I just read some spoilage that NEXT WEEK she's gonna turn into OZ. She'll wanna tell people but she won't be able to say more than three words every fifteen minutes. Considering how much she loves to talk, Willow/Oz will go crazy and try to learn the infamous diminished fifth guitar chord which causes the entire Earth to vibrate out of control and spin into the sun!

[> [> Well, dang, now you went ahead and ruined it! ;o) -- Rob, 21:03:42 02/04/03 Tue

[> [> You made my day, thanks -- grifter, 06:29:48 02/05/03 Wed

I just had to laugh so hard I drooled on myself.
Thanks for, and it really is not often that I say that, making me drool! ;)

[> Re: Willow has suffered enough -- lunasea, 06:21:51 02/05/03 Wed

Joss dubed this season "Buffy: Year One." That has lots of implications and would be interesting to discuss, but Buffy wasn't all smiles S1. She was pretty upset most of it. I don't know where people are getting shiney happy Buffy from.

Buffy was confused most of S1. Seems to be repeating that again. Willow was insecure wiggins girl (and she screamed much better than Dawn). Seems we are seeing that again.

Willow is a tough character to write right now. They don't want to resolve things too quickly or they won't have that development left for the spin-offs. Buffy they can totally resolve. Willow is pretty much in a holding pattern.

Publishers Weekly....Pop Goes Philosophy -- Rufus, 15:39:55 02/04/03 Tue

Conversebuffyverse

Publishers Weekly

Pop Goes Philosophy
by Natalie Danford -- 2/3/2003

That sound you hear is Nietzsche and Kant rolling over in their graves, or perhaps having a cow, at the news that after 42 weeks as Nielsen Bookscan's number one trade paperback philosophy book, The Simpsons and Philosophy: The D'oh! of Homer (Open Court, 2001) moved into the top trade paperback philosophy backlist spot late last year. Taking its place as the bestselling frontlist title was The Matrix and Philosophy: Welcome to the Desert of the Real (Oct.).

These two unlikely titles are the latest in Open Court's Popular Culture and Philosophy series-collections of academic essays that marry high thought and low culture. The series debuted in 2000 with Seinfeld and Philosophy: A Book About Everything and Nothing, edited by William Irwin, which has shipped 21,000 copies to date. The Simpsons and Philosophy, edited by Irwin with Mark T. Conard and Aeon J. Skoble, has shipped an impressive 163,000 copies, while The Matrix and Philosophy, also edited by Irwin, has already shipped 43,000 copies.

Open Court, which publishes 12 to 15 nonfiction titles a year, will continue the series with the April publication of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in Sunnydale, edited by James B. South. First printing is tentatively 25,000 copies, and pre-pub orders have been the strongest for any book in the series, reported Open Court publisher Marc Aronson. The Lord of the Rings and Philosophy, edited by Gregory Bassham and Eric Bronson, will follow in fall 2003, and Woody Allen and Philosophy, edited by Conard and Skoble, in spring 2004.

Series editor Irwin, an associate professor of philosophy at King's College in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., understood from his own experience that pop culture could offer students entry into a weighty subject. "I see these books as working in the same way as when a symphony orchestra does an evening of Beatles songs," he explained. "It gets people to come to the symphony, and they may find they actually like it."

Using pop culture to illustrate academic material has proven a winning formula before. Most notably, the Penguin paperback The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff has sold more than two million copies since its first edition in August 1983. Such whimsical titles find an especially receptive audience among students at college bookstores like the Harvard Coop, which sold nearly 400 copies of The Simpsons and Philosophy last year. "It's not philosophy for dummies," said Mark Ouimet, executive v-p of marketing at Publishers Group West, which distributes Open Court.

The books are so sophisticated they are even being used as textbooks. Kimberly Blessing, associate professor of philosophy at Siena Heights University in Michigan, assigned The Simpsons and Philosophy to the dozen students in a spring 2002 elective entitled "Animated Philosophy and Religion." Blessing recalled, "Students said, 'Wow, I probably wouldn't have remembered the different character types that Aristotle talked about, but now this is going to stick with me.' "

[> Cool way to make philosophy relatable. and a mini rant..... -- Briar Rose, 17:32:36 02/04/03 Tue

I think it's great that Ms. Blessing assigned this book - and at least she didn't have any reported FINANCIAL incentive to do so!

I get so tired of professors trying to up their novel's sales by making students buy their latest attempts at publishing. It's an appalling breach of ethics, IMO. Especially since the majority of the time it's a weighty and expensive compendium of things already available for much less money by a different author for a new copy and more widely available in various formats AND more easily found used or otherwise dirt cheap or free on the web !

[> Interesting on James B. South's book -- s'kat, 21:02:31 02/04/03 Tue

Did anyone else receive a marketing message asking them to review it and possibly post the review on their web site?

Just curious.

SK

Did I miss something (Spoilers 7.13 and S4) -- Rook, 18:05:28 02/04/03 Tue

When Spike and Buffy are going down into the initiative, Spike talks about recieving drugs in the initiative to control him/the chip. As far as I remember, Spike was shocked, woke up with no memory of what happened while he was unconscious, and promptly escaped. I don't remember the initiative ever holding him long enough for the events he described tonight to have happened...in fact, from the way he described it, it sounded like he knew about the chip while he was being held down there, when we know he didn't find out about it until after his escape.

[> Re: Did I miss something (Spoilers 7.13 and S4) -- Clen, 20:28:05 02/04/03 Tue

this is just a weak excuse, I agree with you, but maybe when he buddied up with Adam, he saw some of the records? I don't know, it actually bugged me too.

[> Not only that -- Vickie, 21:29:45 02/04/03 Tue

At the end of Primeval, the one creepy government official said "The Initiative itself will be filled in with concrete." So how did Buffy and Spike even get in?

[> [> Easy answer...the job was subcontracted to the lowest bidder -- Indri, 22:20:05 02/04/03 Tue

And they skimped on the concrete. Clearly not the people that Xander works for. They'd have done a better job.

Indri

[> [> The thing with continuity is... -- Rob, 22:28:16 02/04/03 Tue

...to spackle in the holes, I always work with what I have.

In "Primeval," they did say that the Initiative would be filled with concrete. Now, in the seventh season's TKiM, we see that this has not been done. Since we didn't see the concreting occur, though, we can of course, make up a story to figure out why it was never done.

Perhaps it was meant as a comment on how carelessly the project was left? Things weren't done as ordered even after they got the hell out of there, they just left it to decay.

Maybe the cost was too high? Or the labor involved just ended up being not worth it?

Perhaps some part of the gov't for whatever reason wanted it to remain and so overrode those rules. Conspiracy alert!

Any other ideas?

Rob

[> [> [> The guy also said to "burn it down" and "salt the earth". Maybe concrete was just an expression. -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:35:48 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> And we also know the "closed" Initiative is still active... -- Darby, 07:23:28 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> Government budget cuts or -- Deb, 08:04:29 02/05/03 Wed

It did appear that things had gotten out of control at one time. Looks like a mass slaughter took place. Also, we didn't see them putting the chip into Spike's head, but it had to happen before the scene in which he escapes. Perhaps he had drunk the drugged blood before the vampire "next door" told him is was drugged. The facility itself, and the context, lent itself to a feeling of timelessness to me. The Initiative "bagged" Spike while Oz was still around and he escaped in the next ep. Some time had to pass.

Question, did anyone else had a short "black-out" right after Buffy and Spike jumped/fell into the hole? I missed a whole Buffy line.

[> Re: Did I miss something (Spoilers 7.13 and S4) -- Kitkat, 00:29:06 02/05/03 Wed

Perhaps he knew they had put something in him but didn't know what it would do, hence his surprise when he went to try and bite Willow?? We don't know exactly where the chip is in his brain but surely he would notice on waking that he had had surgery to his head?

[> Retcon city ... -- Earl Allison, 03:14:06 02/05/03 Wed

You're right, it was never mentioned. It also makes Spike more of a dimwit for attacking Willow in the dorms, and ME more sloppy since Spike was tossing scientists around in his escape -- and the chip didn't kick in.

As for the Initiative sealed in concrete, it's one of the final breaks in continuity. ME just doesn't seem to care anymore.

The scene in S4 where the line comes from wasn't made to primary or secondary characters, but to the all-seeing, omniscient viewer, us. There was no reason to deceive, it's just (IMHO) very, very sloppy writing.

It also poses the following issues/questions;

So the facility was largely left to its own? All that technology, all those bodies, just LEFT THERE? No one stumbled into (or out of) the facility in almost three years? The corpses of the demons weren't taken for study? The human ones weren't taken for decent burial? It's one thing to strain suspension of belief, this snaps it in two!

All that advanced technology, just left to rot? Military personnel just left for the same? I know it seems very minor to some, but this is just the latest in a long line of retcons (magic, the chip, souls, etc.) -- if ME doesn't care, why should I?

I'm sorry to bring up the spectre of sloppy writing, but that's all I can see here. It was convenient to the plot for Buffy and Spike to get into the remnants of the Initiative, so they did, with no difficulty.

I won't even go into the absurdity of the soldiers even opting to remove the chip. Last I checked, the Initiative considered them SUB-terrestials, less than human. They vivisected them for experiments -- now I am asked to accept that they not only gave Spike painkillers or somesuch, but that they would de-chip a potentially dangerous (actually, almost certainly, in their view) vampire on the say-so of a single agent and the Slayer?

Take it and run.

[> [> Re: Retcon city ... -- Miss Edith, 09:54:47 02/05/03 Wed

I am spoiled for the next episode and all I can say is there are more blatent inconsistencies to come. Inconsistencies which make no sense as a big deal was made of them at the time. You'll see what I mean soon enough.

[> And another thing (Spoilers 7.13 and S4) -- ponygirl, 07:07:49 02/05/03 Wed

Why would Willow go to the Wiccan group when she knew they had no real power and turned up their noses at the idea of spells (and for that matter how did she know where and when they were meeting?)? A line from her saying that she'd heard they'd become powerful, or that she needed a larger power circle than the Scoobs could provide would have helped me out with this considerably.

[> [> Re: And another thing (Spoilers 7.13 and S4) -- yez, 07:41:17 02/05/03 Wed

I was wondering about this, too. Here's my theory:

Willow went to the campus Wiccan group for the same reasons that Amy did -- to use them as boosters to strengthen their own actions.

I'm thinking that the FE has been whispering in Amy's ear about Willow and is helping Amy get more powerful. But Amy being so much weaker than Willow, she still needs to draw off others, so she goes to the Wiccan group under false pretenses and gets them to help amplify her spell. The spell hits Willow, maybe coincidentally at the same time that Kennedy kisses her, and poof -- Warren. So Willow marches over to the Wiccan group, to try to use their power to amplify her own efforts to break whatever spell is on her. And finds Amy there. And maybe when Willow and Amy sit to try a spell and something happens that hurts Willow, Amy just kind of sealed the deal, so to speak, setting Willow off on the fast-course to becoming ever-more Warren.

This is the only way I can get it to make sense for myself...

yez

Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Rob, 19:26:05 02/04/03 Tue

Okay, I really did like this episode, but I couldn't help but be disappointed at the end, basically because it was over and this week I wanted to know...

***what the heck actually happened to Giles. So he's not the First, he's all corporeal. So what gives? (Though I will say that the Scoobs-tackling-Giles scene was a true classic. Especially Giles' rebuke to Andrew. LOL!)

***what Buffy will decide. And what a stressful philosophizing week this is going to be!! (Although if I were her, I'd just out with the chip. It didn't stop him from being used by the First before, so that wouldn't be an issue. The First could just as easily control him with or without it. And he does have a soul now and feels horrible about what he did as a vamp.)

Other than that, I thought it was a very good episode, if a tad bit uneven. I'm not sure how much I buy Amy's reason for hexing Willow. I'd understand if it was just petty revenge for kicking her out of her life last year. But then she brought in the "it's all about power" thing, and I wasn't sure if I should be annoyed or not, meaning was that line dropped in there just to be clever...or does that really tie into the major stories of the year. Personally, I was a little disappointed that it was just regular ol' season 6 bad girl Amy pretending to be nice, and not the First.

What I liked:

***Willow's conflict. Allyson and Adam's combined performance. Her date with Kennedy (although I do not like Kennedy. Do. Not. Like. Her.)

***The Scoobies' reactions to Warr-ilow.

***Tom Lenk. His brilliant reaction to Warren. His threats that he'd do something evil if left alone. I'm sorry, but I love this guy! For me, he more than makes up for the annoying potentials, which by the way, is my next thing I liked...

***A potential-less week!

***Poor SMG and her laryngitisy voice!

***Previously mentioned tackling-Giles scene.

***The fight with the deformed demon, and the surprise Initiative visit.

***Buffy's new philosophical dilemma.

***I like that, continuing with "Potential," the characters are being paid attention to again. We haven't had a Willow ep in a long time. And next week it looks like it might be Xander's turn.

What I didn't like:

***The unforthcomingness with the answers. I really want to know what happened with Giles. Did he just duck? Is there no reason Giles didn't touch anything or hug anyone other than to be a red herring, or was it to show that he was depressed? Or is there another reason we don't know yet? And is that really Robson who called?

***The pacing felt a bit off, I thought, not in the actual scenes, but in the editing. The three plot threads just didn't gel very well. The problem is that the so-called B threads in this story (Buffy/Spike and finding out about Giles) were too important to just be B threads.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I liked the Willow story. I'm glad that she is continuing to face punishment, sadness, etc for the things she did. I love her, I adore her, but she does deserve it. She almost destroyed the world. She murdered someone. I am very glad the writers are not letting her off easy. I thought it was particularly smart to have this guilt over trying to move on be manifested like this. Although I kind of wish it was an accidental spell that Willow brought on herself like in STSP rather than a hex by Amy. Although in a way you could kind of say that Will brought it on herself since her subconscious chose the form she took. Still, I think it might have been more powerful if it was all her doing. And would also bring up some more issues with the is-her-magic-out-of-control theme.

Come to think of it, that may be why they did have Amy be the one to do this, so that it wouldn't seem like Will's still out of control.

And I'm not sure, in the logic of the spell, whether kissing Kennedy again would actually cure it. But whatever.

Anyway, I think I'd rate this ep a 7. 5 out of 10. All three plots were good. Don't know if they were all best-suited to be in the same episode, but I will forgive that since it's over halfway through the season, and they really do need to be kicking the plots into gear. Luckilly, it seems like the revelations will continue coming next week, from the looks of the preview. Perhaps some Wood answers finally? And the return of the Seal of Danthazar. So maybe people's worries that that wouldn't ever be fully explained with the death of the Turok-Han can be put to rest. Also glad to see that it seems like Xander will have more of a major role next week.

If nothing else, this ep has gotten me very pumped up for next week. It left so many things dangling, I've just gotta know right now what happens!

Rob

[> Re: Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Alison, 19:36:41 02/04/03 Tue

Maybe Amy is under the influence of the first?
and totally with you on the Kennedy thing

[> [> That was my theory, too -- it was the FE's influence. -- yez, 07:33:14 02/05/03 Wed

I'm thinking the FE talked Amy into doing what she did, and is also helping her grow more powerful -- Amy's packing a huger wallop these days than she ever did before. I mean, she can cast a spell that Willow, the "most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere" didn't sense and can't break? And also didn't they make a big deal before about the whole teleportation taking a lot of power, sapping a lot of energy and being very hard for non-Wiccas to experience? (Buffy collapses after Willow transports her, doesn't she?) Also, not even Anya could teleport people that way.

And that line about it not being about fairness, it's about power -- that has FE written all over it. So does the attack on Willow in general, and it sort of fits with the earlier attack, where the FE also leveraged Willow's feelings for/about Tara to try to talk her into taking herself out.

Also, I just don't see Amy feeling that mad, jealous and vindictive re: Willow without having someone whispering in her ear and/or making promises about power, etc. So my theory is it was the FE's influence. It talked her into having those feelings and taking action, and is also somehow helping her power up.

It doesn't make sense to me any other way. Assuming this is right, then I'm wondering if Amy's going to be a player in eps. to come. I mean, with her having that kind of power and obviously abusing it, can the Scoobs afford to let her keep operating?

yez

[> [> [> About Amy's power -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:48:58 02/05/03 Wed

Amy didn't need to make the spell unbreakable. As long as Willow still subconciously wanted to punish herself, she wouldn't be able to change it.

As for teleporting, a reference is made in Dead Things to Jonathan, a minor spell caster, being able to teleport stuff (although Katrina's body was too big for him to do it). Maybe teleporting another object or person is easier than teleporting yourself.

Do agree about possible First Evil influence, though.

[> [> [> I agree. And I retract my statement... -- Rob, 09:02:36 02/05/03 Wed

...about her "it's all about power" thing just being stuck in there. It didn't even occur to me before, but yes, someone who Willow kicked out of her life last year for being a negative influence, particularly a strong witch, would be a perfect choice for the FE to manipulate. Since the FE couldn't drive Will made itself, it would need a helper to push her over the edge. And it almost worked.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Amy does end up being a major player in the upcoming battle. I have my fingers crossed that she does!

Rob

[> [> [> [> Aargh! Typo alert! -- Rob, 09:07:12 02/05/03 Wed

I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote this:

"Since the FE couldn't drive Will made itself, it would need a helper to push her over the edge."

That should have been "drive Will crazy."

Rob

[> Re: Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Cheryl, 19:57:08 02/04/03 Tue

I was kind of disappointed with the episode. I agree with you on the goodness of a Potential-less week but I'm really, really sick of Andrew.

And I don't like how 'in your face' Kennedy is with Willow and I don't see what Willow sees in Kennedy. They don't have the magic connection like she had with Tara (which is what brought them together in the first place). Everything seems superficial to me as far as a "relationship" between them. And I think it's too soon for Willow to get involved with someone else. Just my opinion, of course. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I'm just not liking Willow this year at all. Bored now.

I'm not thrilled with what they did with Amy's character, either, especially after what they did to Jonathon. Are they going to destroy all of the old, "back to the beginning" characters before they're finished?

Last I heard about the Initiative (Primevil?), they were supposed to fill the Initiative with cement or destroy it in some way (don't remember exactly). The military left their own dead soldiers there?!?!? Or were those just demon remains? And the power still works - how convenient. The good? Did love the fact that Riley left it up to Buffy (but sorely missed not actually seeing Riley) and am dying to find out what she told them to do.

Speaking of the chip, I'm with Rook (separate thread) - I thought that Spike wasn't even aware of the chip or headaches until he had escaped from the Initiative and attacked Willow in her dorm room. Now all of a sudden, he knew of the chip beforehand, experienced the headaches, and was given drugs - all before he escaped? There are just too many inconsistencies and rewriting of history this year, which is making me pretty disallusioned with ME.

The unforthcomingness with the answers. I really want to know what happened with Giles. Did he just duck? Is there no reason Giles didn't touch anything or hug anyone other than to be a red herring, or was it to show that he was depressed? Or is there another reason we don't know yet? And is that really Robson who called?

Yep, agree with you there.

I'll have to rewatch - maybe I'll enjoy it more next time around (and I didn't catch what the Initiative guy said Riley called Spike - "his exact words" so I have to rewatch anyway ).

[> [> Re: Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Rob, 20:03:05 02/04/03 Tue

Speaking of the chip, I'm with Rook (separate thread) - I thought that Spike wasn't even aware of the chip or headaches until he had escaped from the Initiative and attacked Willow in her dorm room. Now all of a sudden, he knew of the chip beforehand, experienced the headaches, and was given drugs - all before he escaped? There are just too many inconsistencies and rewriting of history this year, which is making me pretty disallusioned with ME.

I'd have to rewatch to make sure, but I figured that Spike probably meant he was experiencing chip-pain while in the Initiative, but didn't yet realize what it was from; now he says it was from the chip, but at the time didn't know.

Rob

[> [> Re: Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Miss Edith, 01:13:49 02/05/03 Wed

There were a lot of inconsistencies. I wonder why there was no explanation for Chloe's absense in Potential? And Giles making jokes about not molesting underage girls is out of character IMO. Surely he would find it too indelicate to discuss? And why has he been so moody lately and no one touched him for two episodes? Was it another case of inconsistent writing so that that the audience could be surprised with a "Gotcha" twist *coughSpike'ssoulcough*. Seriously not touching anything or anyone for over a month? There has to be more to it. Giles has definately not been acting like himself and I cannot believe ME would string us along for weeks at the expense of character continuity just to get in one joke. I'm thinking there's more to this as ME have milked it so much. Too contrived for me not to believe there will be more of a payoff.

As for Willow I personally feel part of her problem was the fact that she does rely on her partner for valadation. Surely jumping into another relationship isn't the wisest idea. And how convienient that the first lesbain Willow encounters after Tara is attracted to Willow, and Willow is interested back. Putting two lesbians under the same roof and they will be under the sheets in no time. A little cliched in my mind.

The lighting could have been better in the iniative scenes as I could hardly see what was going on. I also wish Spike could have more interesting storylines than simply being in pain every week. It's boring me at this point, I can no longer say he is my favourite character. I just wish ME would kill him off if they have nothing original to do with him. I never thought I'd be saying that after BY but I don't believe ME utilised the potential of his story arc effectively and he's just boring me at the moment, and Sarah doesn't exactly seem invested in scenes with Spike either. The ghostbusters joke was funny though. I can't get the song out of my head now lol. Warren's performance impressed me. I actively disliked Kennedy now though. I hope she won't be around for the rest of the season. Overall I didn't like the episode that much. It was nice to have some focus on Willow's grief though. It made sense to me that she was more concerned with the loss of Tara, than with killing Warren, and I thought Alyson did a nice job there. Just a shame about her utter lack of chemistry with Kennedy IMHO.

[> [> [> I tried it yesterday and remembering whether someone touched anything or not is difficult. -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:30:56 02/05/03 Wed

[> Re: Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Peggin, 20:06:37 02/04/03 Tue

***what Buffy will decide. And what a stressful philosophizing week this is going to be!! (Although if I were her, I'd just out with the chip. It didn't stop him from being used by the First before, so that wouldn't be an issue. The First could just as easily control him with or without it. And he does have a soul now and feels horrible about what he did as a vamp.)

I agree that Buffy should decide to get rid of the chip, for the reasons you gave and for something more. After Spike got chipped, there were times (like after Primeval, Out of My Mind, and Crush), when Spike proved he was still both evil and dangerous. Buffy really should have staked him, but she felt like she couldn't because he couldn't defend herself against her. Bu removing the chip entirely, Spike will now be able to live with all of the benefits and all of the consequences of having free will.

If he is a good guy now (and I am 99% sure that he is good now, but there was a line in Sleeper where Buffy suggested that it could be an act, and I haven't completely dismissed the possibility that the line might have been there for a reason), he should be free of the chip so that he can defend himself and so that he can be more effective in helping everyone else fight evil, and just because it's the right thing to do.

OTOH, if it is an act (which I doubt, but still, Joss is evil, so you never know) or if something happens that makes him lose his soul or something, Buffy will be able to stake him without feeling guilty about killing someone who is defenseless.

And I'm not sure, in the logic of the spell, whether kissing Kennedy again would actually cure it. But whatever.

The way I saw it, the spell was triggered because Willow was afraid that going on with her life now that Tara was gone meant betraying Tara's memory and forgetting all about her. I think Kennedy's kiss ended the spell because it made Willow realize that's not true. Willow is still alive, and there's no reason she shouldn't go on with her life, but that doesn't mean she has to forget about Tara.

[> A fine mess (spoilers 7.13) -- ponygirl, 20:15:26 02/04/03 Tue

I'm glad you liked it Rob, and I agree about being eager for next week but I don't know...

No crankypants and the ranty hat is in the cupboard, I just feel a little wistful about what could have been an amazing episode but turned out to be a bit of a muddle. Everyone has an off week, and I'd say *everyone* was having an off week when TKIM was filmed. SMG's illness, the fact that Firefly was probably being cancelled and Joss' baby being born around the time this was shot, for whatever reason attention just did not seem to have been paid.

David Grossman has directed lots of episodes before, so I don't know why the editing felt sluggish and the staging awkward. It was an interesting choice thematically to use a lot of profile shots, but it had the effect of distancing me from the actors. I also question the decision to let the audience see Willow instead of Warren as much as we did. While it would have meant virtually no scenes with AH imagine the impact if we, like the characters, had seen only Warren. Maybe Adam Busch wasn't up to it, but there was the excuse of Willow taking on Warren's personality to cover any acting lapses.

Other quibbles include Spike's collapse during the big Warren confrontation scene. It made me wonder if it was supposed to be dramatic or comical, before deciding on awkward. And it seemed like shots were being re-used in the underground scenes.

Then we had one of the biggest continuity gaffes I can recall in BtVS. As Rook has already pointed out below, Spike saying that the Initiative gave him drugs when his chip acted up was incorrect. I can accept Spike having been told about drugs while he was held captive, but the chip as was demonstrated in The Initiative was a complete surprise to him.

It's all too bad because there were so many good ideas in this episode. Dealing with Willow's guilt over her attraction to Kennedy, and finally addressing Spike's chip, and then paralleling the stories -- it was great. The symbolism of the abandoned Initiative, sealed and forgotten, representing a lot of the issues the characters aren't dealing with -- again great. And I loved the fairy tale element! If Willow was the Frog Prince then is Spike Sleeping Beauty or Snow White? ;))

I didn't hate this episode by any stretch but it's quite frustrating to think that we missed any opportunity for a really great episode and instead got something that felt like a rush job.

[> [> Re: A fine mess (spoilers 7.13) -- CW, 21:02:50 02/04/03 Tue

I agree with Rob about the overall quality of the episode.

I do like Kennedy, I think she's a breath of fresh air. But I wish the affair between her and Willow wasn't being pushed quite so hard. Having Kennedy stay behind just so she could hit on Willow was a bit much especially since a lot of the gang was still at the house as well. Kind of puts Buffy's early escapades when she was supposed to be patrolling in perspective.

I also thought the Willow and Warren flip-flopping was distracting. It was a good idea, but the execution didn't quite work. Can't say if it was a directing or film editing problem, although the story did seem padded as if it were running a little short.

[> [> Re: A fine mess (spoilers 7.13) -- s'kat, 21:20:27 02/04/03 Tue

Then we had one of the biggest continuity gaffes I can recall in BtVS. As Rook has already pointed out below, Spike saying that the Initiative gave him drugs when his chip acted up was incorrect. I can accept Spike having been told about drugs while he was held captive, but the chip as was demonstrated in The Initiative was a complete surprise to him.

On the continuity gaff - actually in The Iniative - when the blood is proffered to Spike, the other vampire does tell him it's drugged and not to drink it. So it is possible that he was being drugged before then...but never mentioned.

Here's my take on the continuity gaffs that keep popping up this season - or my spackling for what it's worth:

I think they are showing us what happened through the none rose-colored eyes of adults. Notice Buffy asking Willow if she remembers the times when things weren't so complicated and Willow shakes her head, not remembering any. Or Willow's comment to Xander that not all their past history was cool achy-breaky yellow crayon bits. Spike's discussion of the Initiative reveals he did not quickly escape, they weren't kind to him, and they did experiment and it was painful. Buffy's realization upon entering the site is that the military left everyone there - it didn't take responsibility for the people and demons buried alive or remove the bodies. This bugs her. Through adult eyes...things don't seem some simple or so nice or so romantic. I think that's what they are trying to do, but unfortunately it's very sloppy, disjointed and confusing. Not streamlined. As I said in my review above..risky but not up to par.

SK (shadowkat whose feeling lazy and abbreviating.;-)

[> [> Re: A fine mess (spoilers 7.13) -- Caroline, 12:29:01 02/05/03 Wed

I agree ponygirl with the editing and framing points you mentioned. I found it particularly distracting in the early scenes with Willow and Kennedy. The camera was too high and too far away and it didn't have an intimate feel - I thought the way it was framed gave a really oppressive feel. I also think that while the make-up people did a great job on Buffy, they failed dismally with Amy and Willow, making two very attractive women look pale and wan. While this might have been appropriate for Willow in the later scenes, it definitely wasn't in the earlier ones.

I also found the switch between Willow and Warren disruptive not entirely successful. The most glaring example is the crying at the end - Warren cheeks are dry but Willow's are wet, as if she had been crying for a while.

I felt unsatified with the mislead on Giles and with the fact that we don't know how he escaped the bringers and obviously did not go to Robson's aid when Robson lapsed into unconsciousness. I was not fooled about Giles being the FE for a moment so I'm not sure what the point was there.

I'm less concerned about Spike's chip retcon - Spike must have known that they operated on him - there had to be a wound to the head and stitches etc. But that does not mean he knew what the chip was for - and only found out after he tried to attack Willow. I'm more concerned with the Initiative retcon - I thought that the senator at the end of season 4 said to burn it down, pour concrete in it etc but it's still here!

Awkward moments : Giles line about 'not touching' and Spike being in pain in the background. Both weird.

But I did enjoy the themes and fairy tale resolution of the guilt redemption story and was happy to have Willow, Spike and Giles highlighted, even though there was not enough Giles. And thanks for giving me a place to vent - noone in chat agreed with me last night about these points here and I felt rather lonely in my views.

[> [> [> Re: A fine mess (spoilers 7.13) -- ponygirl, 13:00:09 02/05/03 Wed

I'd say reaction to this episode certainly proves that for every fan there are three different opinions! I'm going to stick with "love the idea, hate the execution" -- fortunately there's lots of thematic goodness to discuss and the mistakes I'll just have to try to ignore.

Interesting that the episode brings back two season 4 elements-- the Initiative, the Wicca group-- and messes them both up continuity-wise. If it turns out to be intentional I'll eat my continuity-mocking words... but I'm sticking with the framing and editing comments!

[> [> [> [> A quick question (Spoilers, Killer in Me) -- Rahael, 13:49:38 02/05/03 Wed

I haven't seen the ep (baseball here in Ohio). Does Willow express any remorse for killing Warren? or is it all about losing Tara?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: A quick question (Spoilers, Killer in Me) -- Utopia, 14:20:37 02/05/03 Wed

I'm not really sure about how she worded it, but I think at one point she says that she's glad she killed him or that he deserved it or something like that. Gotta look at the tape again.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A quick question (Spoilers, Killer in Me) -- ponygirl, 14:49:25 02/05/03 Wed

I'd have to re-watch too. I'd say there was some remorse, more in Willow's actions rather than actual words, but it was mainly about Tara. Willow viewed her own moving on as a second death for Tara. Her words were something like "I let her be dead" in the sense that Willow had finally put Tara in the past, rather than keeping her grief always in the forefront.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks to both. Interesting (Spoilers, KIM) -- Rahael, 15:33:17 02/05/03 Wed

Suggests then, that Willow's arc in this case is far from over. Maybe just a stage in the grieving process?

Interesting that she has still internalised Warren in her. That she has him encompassed within her identity.

[> Re: Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Kev, 21:18:52 02/04/03 Tue

Had a small question about the ep. How were Buffy and Spike able to get into the Initiative, when it was supposed to be filled with concrete? I checked a transcript of Primeval (sp?) and found this quote from that govt. hearing at the end...

Mr. Ward: (VO) The Initiative itself will be filled in with concrete.
Burn it down, gentlemen. (pause) Burn it down . . . and salt the
earth.

Has there been a reference to why this wasn't done, and I just don't remember it? Thanks.

[> Some cold water -- darrenK, 22:03:42 02/04/03 Tue

I didn't really like the episode much.

To start with I've decided that I definitely don't like Drew Greenberg as a writer. His episodes seem inauthentic to me. Sometimes they seem very like Buffy episodes, but most of the time I'd prefer a good fanfiction.

To start with he doesn't understand the characters.
Case in point might just be the line he gives Giles after he's been tackled, "You think I'm evil if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and don't touch them?"

Sorry, that's just not a Giles line. Giles is Dad, not barely-holding-back-his-perversity-guy. I think it's a case of the writer using a joke he thinks is funny even if it's wrong for the character.

To be honest, even the idea that Giles might be having such thoughts could recast his relationships with the characters. Let's face it, this is a character who's middle-aged yet his closest human relationship for many years has been with a teenage girl who he's not blood-related to. His other close relationships are also with teenagers, mostly female. While this is an outgrowth of his job, jobs that deal with minors don't always attract people with the best motives. Why call Gile's into question when he's been the show's rock?

I'm not so concerned about the morality or legality, instead I'm saying that the character is being betrayed in order to shoehorn in a joke and that's a bad sign.

The other points in the episode aren't much better.

-The last time Riley saw Buffy she was in a state of depressed near catatonia. She was ineffective as the Slayer, working in a fast food restaurant and sleeping with a neutered vampire working as a Demon egg merchant. How does he all of a sudden trust her judgement enough to make a crucial decision about whether to turn the demon egg dealer into a raging killing machine? And since when is the Initiative so sensitive to Buffy's needs? It might make more sense if Finn knew that Spike now has a soul, but as far as I know, he doesn't.

-The Willow storyline was interesting, but Amy's involvement seemed unnecessary. Was this revenge b/c Willow didn't derat her earlier? Was this her turning into her own mother??getting back at the girl who got to be the magical equivalent of cheerleader? To me it felt forced and didn't really give much respect to Willow's years-long friendship with Amy.

-Other people have covered the Spike/Initiative/chip/drug thing already, but I'll just say that it bothered me too.

In general I thought it was a careless, poorly plotted episode with too many plotlines and not enough story. The Giles portion existed purely to keep Anya, Dawn, Xander and Andrew in the episode and the potentials out of the episode. Ultimately, once more, Giles played no real role this week and if this is how they're going to use him then ASH might as well go back to England.

I found the episode to be a lot like Drew Greenberg's Season 6 travesty, Smashed, another poorly plotted episode where for unexplained reasons characters did things that were out of character, raunchy replaced clever and the dialogue fell flat, "I need help, Buffy..."

So does Drew. He just doesn't understand the show he's writing for.

I will say that I liked the idea of Willow turning into Warren and I thought that Andrew/Warren interaction made sense. I also liked the shout-out to Alan Moore and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. How 'bout Mina's neck in that last issue?

dK

[> [> Differing on your tepid water a bit -- Vickie, 22:18:54 02/04/03 Tue

darrenK said "The last time Riley saw Buffy she was in a state of depressed near catatonia. She was ineffective as the Slayer, working in a fast food restaurant and sleeping with a neutered vampire working as a Demon egg merchant. How does he all of a sudden trust her judgement enough to make a crucial decision about whether to turn the demon egg dealer into a raging killing machine? And since when is the Initiative so sensitive to Buffy's needs? It might make more sense if Finn knew that Spike now has a soul, but as far as I know, he doesn't."

Thing is, Finn trusted her judgement in that very episode. He told her he had discretion in the matter of the Doctor, and that he'd eliminate him or just leave, at Buffy's say-so. If he trusted her then, when he had just learned she was sleeping with the enemy, he would certainly trust her judgement now.

Besides, maybe he learned through email that the affaire was over. Remember Willow and her trusty laptop.

[> [> Couldn't disagree more... -- Rob, 22:20:54 02/04/03 Tue

I think Drew Greenburg writes for the characters very well, and "Smashed" remains one of my favorite season 6 episodes. He does interesting things with the characters, goes places not many other writers ever did, such as exploring Anya's slowly-escalating claustrophobia in OaFA. I think his problem actually lies in plotting more than characterization. I get the feeling that he cares for these characters very much, but is not a great plotter, although I thought his first effort, "Smashed" had better plotting than most of his other efforts.

"The last time Riley saw Buffy she was in a state of depressed near catatonia. She was ineffective as the Slayer, working in a fast food restaurant and sleeping with a neutered vampire working as a Demon egg merchant. How does he all of a sudden trust her judgement enough to make a crucial decision about whether to turn the demon egg dealer into a raging killing machine?"

But he has always respected Buffy's opinion and judgment and did back off when Buffy told him to leave Spike alone at the end of AYW. After finding out Buffy was sleeping with him, I think he basically washed his hands of the situation. With Buffy, I think he just hopes that she makes the right decision, but respects her enough to let her make it.

Re: The Giles line. I thought it was funny. I think you might be taking that one a little too seriously. Also, I don't think he implied anywhere that he would touch the girls if he could. In fact, the fact that he actually is corporeal and didn't touch the girls shows that he isn't a lech.

Rob

[> [> [> It's like Spike's funny line in Smashed.. -- Helen, 04:16:15 02/05/03 Wed

When Buffy tries to explain away her kissing him at the end of Tabula Rasa, by saying, "Spike you do understand that when I kissed you I was thinking about Giles?" meaning, just hurting becasue she felt abandoned.

"You know, I've always wondered about you two." said the Platinum one.

[> [> [> [> Re: It's like Spike's funny line in Smashed.. -- darrenK, 05:25:41 02/05/03 Wed

When Buffy tries to explain away her kissing him at the end of Tabula Rasa, by saying, "Spike you do understand that when I kissed you I was thinking about Giles?" meaning, just hurting becasue she felt abandoned.

"You know, I've always wondered about you two." said the Platinum one.

That was a funny line and though the implications and realm of possiblilty suggested by it are similiar to last night's Gile's line, it's very different in that it's a Spike line and is completely in character for Spike. His jealousy is long-established so the suspicion of it is completely natural to Spike and as far as suggesting something tawdry and morally compromising? Well, he was soulless and struggling with the big blood-sucking evil.

While I realize that Gile's line was a throwaway and meant to be taken as a joke, IMHO the line doesn't work as intended and I'm not able to let it go. Out of the blue, without being prompted and in a fairly serious voice, Giles suddenly suggests that they might have suspected that he was inappropriately touching the girls? Why so defensive? Why suggest it?

Even to make such a joke, to think of it, the thought that he might be on a trip with the girls for another purpose had to enter his mind. Some people might say it's a cry-for-help line.

In real life, this line is a conversation stopper, the type of line that makes everyone who hears it uncomfortable and silent. In any other show, it might suggest that Giles is having a real problem.

BtVS is famous for jokes with subtext. Now, the subtext is too weird to contemplate and in order to not ask uncomfortable questions we have to simply dismiss it?

This isn't a problem of interpretation, the line just shouldn't be there. It's not a Gile's line.

[> [> [> [> [> It's really Giles... -- Darby, 07:20:28 02/05/03 Wed

It may be right that Giles is too repressed to deliver the line, but it's the sort of joke that you might make with a group that you absolutely trust knows you well enough to not take it the wrong way, and that's this situation. If the proto-Slayers had been present, he would not have said it (but might have thought it). I often make wildly inappropriate or insensitive jokes around people who know me well enough to realize I'm just playing at being twisted.

Sara, you know I'm just kidding about the coeds, right-?

Right-?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed -- dream, 08:24:32 02/05/03 Wed

It wouldn't have been in character for the Giles of the early seasons, but by now? He knows these people really, really well. He also has spent some time away from them, out of the father role, and can relate to them on a different level. I thought it was funny.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agreed -- pellenaka, 08:37:38 02/05/03 Wed

It wouldn't have been in character for the Giles of the early seasons, but by now? He knows these people really, really well. He also has spent some time away from them, out of the father role, and can relate to them on a different level. I thought it was funny.

He also knew them well enough for the touching not to be too inappropiate.
- Except for Andrew, of course. :-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: It's like Spike's funny line in Smashed.. -- Number 17: The Spread Eagle, 09:37:26 02/05/03 Wed

Interesting. Though this reraises a question about the writers [I've been lurking for awhile]: Even if Drew wrote that line, wouldn't Joss and the rest have seen it? Did Joss choose not to edit it because he thought it was funny, and that he thinks DZG is da bomb, or some other reason? What I mean is we can't criticize Greenberg and defend Marti Noxin, as just one example, by different standards. Or can we?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thank You! -- Peggin, 10:30:04 02/05/03 Wed

I get so sick of all the people who blame the problems on any particular episode with the person given writing credit for that episode. The fact is that the entire ME writing staff sits together and breaks the episode scene by scene, then the writer assigned to the episode goes and does an outline that is 13 pages long, which is then approved of or re-written by Joss. That 13 page outline is fleshed out into a script that is about 52 pages long. There's really not a lot of room for creative license in terms of how the script is plotted. There is *some* creative license in terms of the individual lines the characters deliver, but even then, Joss has to approve of the final script before a single scene is shot. He has the power and the responsibility to rewrite anything that doesn't fit in with his vision for the show. So, I don't care what name appears on the screen under "Written By". Everything that happens on this show that I dislike, I blame on Joss and Joss alone. Of course, he also gets the credit for everything I like.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Tales of a midseason curmudgeon -- darrenK, 14:02:53 02/05/03 Wed

Peggin--

I actually do know this and, in completely contradictory fashion, have made the same argument in defense of some of the other writers. I think it's my perceived hypocrisy that Number 17 is alluding to when he says we can't criticize Greenberg and defend Marti Noxin, as just one example, by different standards (either that or he took a shot in the dark and it just happened to turn out that I have been a defender of Marti Noxon).

Anyway, the point is that I concede the argument and plead mid-season frustration. This is my third season posting to this board and my third bout of midseason-curmudgeonlyness. I just can't stand the period of time between November sweeps and the end of February sweeps. Occasionally you get a good character episode, but most of the time it's plot-in-a-holding pattern time with all the sticky candy goodness waiting for April and May.

I'm sure that my feelings will wear away just as soon as there's some big plot revelation that tickles my fancy.

Until then, I'll take my Ritalin and try to keep some internal consistency to my various arguments.

Try.

dK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thank You! -- s'kat, 14:07:12 02/05/03 Wed

Actually this isn't completely true. See the article Jane Espenson wrote on script writing that used to be on the Firefly site. I think there's a link in the archives.

In that article - she states that they do have some creative license. The first part of what you say is correct - they do break it all down in a group - placing the main parts on a huge board outside Joss' office. And they do write a huge outline. BUT They write the script from the outline and most of the dialogue is the writers. It is sent back to the executive producers: Marti Noxon, Tim Minear and Joss Whedon for suggestions. They get back a marked up script with suggestions, like "more comedy here",
"less here", "need more tension", general stuff like that.
They rework it. It gets sent to the director and actors who film it. They change bits and pieces here and there. Then it goes to the editing room, where the producers may play with it some more if time permits. And goes to the network which inserts commercials.

So while the writer may not have as much input as some believe he has - he is vitally important. The lines you hear are the writers. The dialogue is his or her's as the case may be. And in studying the episodes - the one's written by Drew Greenberg have a distinct feel that is Drew's while Jane's feel like Jane's. For instance David Fury wrote last weeks Angel and I could tell - some of the dialogue was definitely Fury's "There's a picture. Pretty."
In Gone. "Oh I see it. Pretty." in Awakenings. And the whole Anya/Spike sequence in Sleeper had a distinct Fury feel as did Xander's "out of control serial killer statement at the end". You can tell. Just as I can tell Joss' lines and episodes. It is obvious Joss tinkered with CwDP and Beneath You - the language and scenes are almost poetic in places - that's his style - an almost Shakespearean poetry and the song in Sleeper is clearly a Joss add in - same classical style.

So I wouldn't assume that Greenberg wasn't responsible for the line. I think he was. It felt too similar to lines he wrote in Smashed and OAFA and HIM and are not reminiscent of Whedon lines. I happen to like Greenberg - I find his writing interesting and it is similar to how he wrote dialogue in Queer As Folk. So I can say with some confidence, most of the dialogue we saw in last night's episode was written by Greenberg. Production value, direction, etc? That was someone else - they tell you who in the credits.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thank You! -- Peggin, 14:59:35 02/05/03 Wed

But my point is that Joss still read the damn thing and approved of it, so whatever makes it to the screen is still Joss's responsibility. And if, for any reason, Joss didn't read it, or didn't like it but let it go through anyway? Well, I blame Joss for that, too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buck stops with Joss? LOL! -- shadowkat, 15:19:21 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not that I disagree. Makes sense actually. ;-) -- shadowkat, 15:22:02 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> GREAT posting name! (And a line from my favorite song from "Chicago." ;o) ) -- Rob, 10:41:24 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> Not every joke has to have a grain of truth in it.. -- CW, 06:19:38 02/05/03 Wed

Part of Giles' sense of humor through out the series has been to emphasize the absurd. At the end of "The Harvest" the kid's are joking about Buffy getting kicked out of school instead of showing anger or dispair, he calmly quips to himself "The world is doomed," and goes about his business. Although there have been times Giles has drank too much, the line in "Something Blue" - "It's all right. I have more scotch," isn't an indication he's an alchoholic.

[> Re: Tell me now, dammit!!! ("The Killer in Me" spoilers, next week's preview also) -- Calvin, 00:11:51 02/05/03 Wed

Holy crap! Does this mean that I actually like an episode better than Rob? What does this mean? Has the world gone mad?

Well, maybe not, and I will try to answer you, Rob, in a bit more detail tomorrow, but I thought this might be the best ep of the season (okay, CWDP was the best), but I choose not to address better evidence right now. It's late and I've had two glasses of wine. 9/10. At least.

Calvin

[> [> Interesting... -- Rob, 07:55:09 02/05/03 Wed

I would say that if not for "Lessons," "Beneath You," STSP, "Selfless" and CWDP, it could have been the best ep of the season, but in comparison to those, IMO, it falters.

But I'd really, really love to hear your reasons for loving it so much, so please post them soon! Because I think it's really great, since I haven't seen many glowingly positive reactions to this ep, and it'd be really cool to see a different perspective.

Rob

[> [> [> I liked it, too. -- dream, 09:02:23 02/05/03 Wed

The pace was definitely better thatn it has been for ages. I liked the whole Willow/Kennedy interaction. I like that Kennedy is upfront with her sexuality and that's not played as a sign of immorality - the only other character that has been able to get away with that has been Anya, and she's newly human and all. I liked that Willow couldn't understand how Kennedy could like her without knowing her - works with Willow's relationship pattern, falling in love slowly with people she has gotten to know a bit. Seeing Warren gave me the shivers. I love that all the continuity questions regarding the chip were solved in an entirely satisfying way - government workmanship breaking down. I liked seeing Buffy more concerned about Spike's welfare than he was - good indication of growth on both their parts. I liked seeing Amy again at all. I liked that Giles wasn't the first, and I liked the interactions with Xander, Anya, Dawn and Andrew. Notice how Dawn starts to say something to Xander, presumably that they should take pity on Andrew, and then backs down a bit? Dawn's sympathy for Andrew is nice, and her discomfort with that sympathy is even better. I liked the absence of the potentials. I think that there was a lot going on in the Willow/Warren business that I would need to re-watch to analyze, but it gave some serious meat to a somewhat lighter episode. Of course, the big question left to Buffy regarding Spike was exciting. My guess is that she will have it taken out - and he will be upset that she didn't have it repaired. I hardly ever guess right, so that's probably the first thing to rule out. Maybe she'll have it taken out and not tell him. I just don't know.

Was it perfect? No. The Giles thing has gone way beyond frustrating. Unless Amy was being influenced by the First, her motives seem a little weak. And why is she hanging out wth the campus Wiccans anyway? (Not a complaint - we may find out later.) The thing about the Initiative didn't bother me in the slightest, because I've never seen Primeval, so I didn't know about the statement that Initiative was supposed to be filled with concrete. Even knowing it, I don't really have much of a problem with it. It's the government, right? Mysterious ways and hyperbole are par for the course - I doubt they were supposed to literally salt the earth either. And I like the idea that something that was supposed to be buried and gone forever is, well, still lurking. A pretty major theme for the show in general, yes? I also liked that Buffy and Spike were stumbling about in the dark, because that's what they've been doing with each other for some time now. It didn't occur to me about Spike and the drugs - I've seen The Initiative, but for some reason didn't assume that Spike's escape was immediate, and see no problem with idea that he would have suffered the pain from the chip while still captive without understanding what triggered it. I guess I'm not too worried about Season 4 continuity issues - that whole season was tainted for me with the science fiction element, so I am willing to gloss over the bumps.

The only serious problem I had with the episode was that Willow was seeking out the Wiccans from college to help her with a spell. The bakesale and crystal people? Instead of Anya, for example? I guess her time with the coven might make her more inclined to search out other witches, but wasn't the point that these women didn't believe in magic? Or did the noise from my kitchen distract me and I didn't understand that she was searching out Amy - a weird but possible choice?

I'm willing to wait for the First Evil action - we've always had non-Big-Bad related episodes that serve important other functions. Willow's grieving was important, in my mind. So was Spike's chip. The Giles thing is important, but not nearly so resolved as I would like. One point off for the Giles thing. I am also quite hopeful that the Vision Quest will be significant in the long run - who are they talking to out there anyway? It's not really supposed to be the First Slayer, is it - just her form? So who? Presumably, it will connect to the Slayer origins - else why send the Slayers-in-Training out there when Buffy didn't do it until she had been a slayer for years. I'm expecting some nice riddles. And, with any luck, some bleached bones.

Was it the best episode this season? Of course not - this season, with the exception of the past three episodes, has been excellent, with CWDP, Selfless, BY, and Sleeper my favorites, in approximately that order. But it was strong, better than Help or the last few. I was excited watching it and am looking forward to rewatching, mostly for the Warren/Willow parts. I was surprised that people disliked it as much as they seem to.

[> [> [> [> Re: I liked it, too. -- Rob, 09:21:37 02/05/03 Wed

I agree that the quality of the show is rising again. It's funny how like clockwork the middle group of eps always has that slump (except for maybe the fifth season. Maybe.) . But I would argue that the slump in this season wasn't quite as bad as it usually is. For the most part, actual plots are being moved along, at least.

And, if Amy was being influenced by the First, which we'll have to wait to see, this ep may go up to a solid 8 for me. It did have a few problems keeping it from a 9 or a 10, mostly personal preference. I don't really see much chemistry between Will and Kennedy. I see Kennedy attracted to Will, but I'm not exactly feeling any attraction on Willow's behalf. Amber and Allyson had genuine chemistry. You could feel the sparks between them from the first moment they clasped hands in "Hush." With Kennedy, I just keep seeing a girl who's acting way too forward and trying to force a relationship with someone who isn't all that interested. Also, I still don't know how much I like the resolution. I loved the metaphor of Willow turning into the man who killed Tara, because she feels like she is killing Tara all over again by moving on, but I don't really get, psychologically, why kissing the girl AGAIN would take away her fears and restore her to her former self.

I have a feeling that this is the type of episode that will get better when viewed after the season has ended, and we see exactly why everything was done the way it was. So for now I'm keeping it at 7.5, but I do have a feeling that it could score an 8 easily, depending on how the plot threads fit into the larger picture, and especially if Amy does end up being revealed to have been a servant of the First. Another thing, I was a tad disappointed that the ep ended without explaining about Giles and with the Spike chip condition up in the air. Once I have the knowledge I long to seek, that aspect of the ep will be less frustrating, and I'll be able to appreciate it more.

But still, a 7.5 really isn't that bad. I'd say it's a solid, above average episode that was unfortunately flawed, but I think had some fascinating ideas. I personally thought that they used the Willow/Warren plot thread perfectly and to its full potential. I was very happy with it (up until the second Kennedy kiss, still think there could have been a better way to resolve it).

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I liked it, too. -- dream, 10:14:01 02/05/03 Wed

I saw the second kiss as working like this. Willow needs to move on, her grieving was keepingher out of life. She responds to Kennedy's advacnces first with alarm, then confusion, then a sort of careful acceptance - no, not quite, but almost. Then, a little unexpectedly, after the evening has gone from awkwardness to something almost, dare we think it, fun - the kiss comes. She likes it. She responds. But then the punishment kicks it. She can't forgive herself for wanting this. She shouldn't want it, because that would be disrespectful to Tara. But moving on is what we do, what we have to do. So she experiences all the angst, and finally, her issues all come to the surface. She expressed the horrible guilt she feels for living when her lover is dead. At this point, she needs to realize that she hasn't done anything wrong. The guilt is foundless. Moving on is not bad - moving on is what life requires of us. At that point - another kiss. The second kiss enforces the reality. You are a person, a living person, who can touch and be touched, who can be kissed and loved and can kiss and love. You are not dead (links to the Giles plot here). You are living. And the pull of life is stronger than the stasis of guilt. I saw the kiss as Kennedy's way of saying, try it again, without the guilt. Try the moving on - conscious, this time, that that's what you're doing. Forgive yourself.

I think overall that's why I haven't had a problem with Kennedy's forwardness. If she had hit on Willow, and Willow had simply said she wasn't interested, then I could see that Kennedy's continued advances would be inappropriate. Willow hasn't said no, she has said, in effect: Can't you see that I'm not available for love? Can't you see my grief is too great to consider moving on? Don't you know what a terrible person I am? Kennedy seems to intuit that Willow is not allowing herself to live, and that it might be time for her to do so - for her to forgive herself a little. That was the import of the "how does evil taste?" line - getting Willow not to take herself TOO seriously. Not that she shouldn't take herself seriously. But there is a line that can be crossed from responsiblity for one's actions and appropriate regret into the self-absorbtion that is self-loathing. We've seen this theme before - think of Angel in the gutter eating rats.

I'll probably regret posting this, because it's long and I'm not rereading it, so I probably make little sense, contradict myself, and imply terrible things I don't mean. But here I go, casting caution to the winds.

(By the way, Rob, I was going to give the episode a 7.5 as well, but then decided against the numerical system. GReat minds and all that....)

Oh, and a poem by Pablo Neruda I thought of in the episode (also quoted in the movie Truly, Madly, Deeply, which I was also thinking of):

DEAD WOMAN
trans. Brian Cole

If suddenly you do not exist,
if suddenly you no longer live,
I shall live on.

I do not dare,
I do not dare to write it,
if you die.
I shall live on.

For where a man has no voice,
there shall be my voice.

Where blacks are flogged and beaten,
I cannot be dead.
When my brothers go to prison
I shall go with them.

When victory,
not my victory,
but the great victory
comes,
even if I am dumb I must speak;
I shall see it coming even if I am blind.

No, forgive me.
If you no longer live,
if you, beloved, my love,
if you
have died,
all the leaves will fall in my breast,
it will rain on my soul night and day,
the snow will burn my heart,
I shall walk with frost and fire and death and snow,
my feet will want to walk to where you are sleeping,
but
I shall stay alive,
because above all things you wanted me
indomitable,
and, my love, because you know that I am not only a man
but all mankind.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I liked it, too. -- Miss Edith, 10:31:35 02/05/03 Wed

I personally didn't get the feeling that Willow was secretly attracted to Kennedy and struggling with that. It seemed more like she was simply bemused by Kennedy's forwardness and slightly uncomfortable. It wasn't until TKIM that Willow IMO took a sexual interest in Kennedy. I really didn't warm to Kennedy (still haven't) because she is failing to respect Willow's personal boundries. If Willow doesn't feel ready to date because of guilt issues then that's up to Willow. Did it not occur to Kennedy that sometimes people are just not attracted to you, no matter how much you push, and how irresistable you think you are? Willow did not directly turn Kennedy down but the signals were fairly clear I felt. After all Kennedy did not directly ask Willow for a date, giving Willow the chance to refuse. It was all inuendo, and sly flirting that Willow didn't know how to react too. I imagine Willow wouldn't feel comfortable with asking if Kennedy was a lesbian and putting the moves on her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I liked it, too. -- dream, 10:59:28 02/05/03 Wed

**didn't get the feeling that Willow was secretly attracted to Kennedy and struggling with that**

Oh, me either. I think she wasn't considering it a possibility at all. And Kennedy wasn't going to let her get away with that - Willow would have to get things out in the open. Not my style, but really not as aggressive as some people I've encountered (or even as aggressive as Anya with Xander, or even Cordelia with Angel back in the Buffy years.) I never got the feeling that Kennedy would have persisted if Willow had said "Kennedy, I appreciate that you're interested in me. But I'm not ready to date yet. And you're nice, but I don't think of you that way." Willow just seemed, as you say, bemused. And, after a night at the Bronze, finally interested.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Great post. I agree. -- Sophist, 10:47:55 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Wow..agree on all your points -- shadowkat, 09:49:19 02/05/03 Wed

Actually I liked it - see my post above on pov. And so did Rufus.

And it's nice to see someone else pick CwDP, Selfless,
BY and Sleeper as their favorites - mine too so far. And I'd say this fits with them and NLM.

I'm wondering if our likes and dislikes don't have a great deal to do with what we like about the show? Hence the reason, I liked both Him, Sleeper, NLM and Killer in Me more than most people seemed to and far better than BoTN, Showtime, Help, STSP and Potential.

Some interesting points I didn't catch:

1. I also liked that Buffy and Spike were stumbling about in the dark, because that's what they've been doing with each other for some time now.

That makes sense. I was too busy wondering what Spike was doing with a flashlight ;-) I've been reading too many rationalist posts lately, I think. It is a brillant metaphor for how these two characters are struggling to deal with each other this season - stumbling around in the dark. He doesn't know how to relate to her and she has no clue how to relate to him, so they occassionally flash lights on each other, then lose each other, with demons jumping between them and attacking them unawares. Maybe the demon was in a sense a metaphor for their own personal demons relating to each other? It attacks Buffy - and tries to drag Spike off. Buffy is the one who manages to slay it.
The Initiative casts light on the situation.

2. Unless Amy was being influenced by the First, her motives seem a little weak.

For a moment I thought she was the First and wondered if she died or something. And how did she know all that personal information regarding Kennedy and Willow? Maybe she was being motivated by the first. Shame they didn't show the first come to Amy as her mother...but then that would screw up pov and the twist. (One complaint I have with ME's writing - sometimes I think they sacrifice character development and plot buildup - for the jaw-dropping twists. )

3. Of course, the big question left to Buffy regarding Spike was exciting. My guess is that she will have it taken out - and he will be upset that she didn't have it repaired. I hardly ever guess right, so that's probably the first thing to rule out. Maybe she'll have it taken out and not tell him. I just don't know.

Would agree. Curious to see where they go with it.

Yep - it's an episode I'll definitely re-watch. So you aren't alone. I liked the episode too.

[> [> [> [> [> I thought Amy was motivated -- Sophist, 10:19:30 02/05/03 Wed

by Willow's "get out of my life speech" at the end of DmP.

[> [> [> Re: Interesting... -- Calvin, 13:02:46 02/05/03 Wed

I was not under the impression that a simple head cold actually affected the stucture of your brain, but I guess it does, 'cause I can't think coherently at all right now. Which is okay, since dream and s'kat did most of the thinking for me (not new).

I guess I liked this episode so much because it reminded me of a season 2-3 ep. Rather than just throwing out a monster of the week, they started with an idea (Willow's guilt over Warren), threw in her feelings about Tara, combined with Kennedy's upfront attitude toward her, and you have the makings of a rock solid story. That's not everything, of course. A few that I can remember:

* Spot on acting throughout the ep. I was beginning to wonder if Allison Hanningan was getting bored, but given something to work with, she really shined, as did the rest of the cast.

* The scene with Buffy and Spike in the Inititive. Not only did I really like the symbolism of the two of them flailing in the dark, I thought it looked amazing. I would have hated to have poor reception or a small tv, though.

* I have been pretty on the fence about Kennedy up to this point, but her character was really fleshed out for me in this ep. I absolutely love the fact that she is so upfront about her sexuality, which correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am and you probably will), but when was the last time we saw any character on the show be that unapologetic about his/her sexuality? Faith, maybe? I think she is a perfect counterpoint to Tara, who I thought was shy to a fault.

* Some nice directorial touches throughout, including the Initiative scene and the flip-backs between Warren and Willow.

This last thing is stictly personal. I wrote a short essay a while back about how the show seemed to be edging toward taking on the viewpoint of an unreliable narrator, which I though was both bold and incredibly risky. That feeling of "we don't know and *can't* know what is going on" is quickly being, well, thrown out. Spike and the chip, Giles, the First - all of these things are starting to be clarified. It's as if, having now been observed, we have collapsed the wave function of the story and can now see it more clearly, if not more accurately (sorry, didn't mean to veer off into quantum mechanics there. I'm reading a book. As Joss would say, 'it's a thing'). In other words, I found the direction the story went in this episode highly satisfying for a weird, personal reason.

Calvin, Slouching Toward Bedroom.

Still all about pov and power and choices (Spoilers 4.13? Tonight's Btvs) -- s'kat, 20:51:44 02/04/03 Tue

Yes it's me, I'm just lazy and sick of writing out shadowkat all the time.

I'm leaving the nit-picking to the experts - Darby and cjl.
Overall, I liked the episode. Liked it much better than the past three, it held my interest, I couldn't wait for the commercials to end, the hour sped by and I'll rewatch without fast-forwarding. Can't say this about the other three which really drug IMHO. And I love Kennedy. I may be the only one, but then that's nothing new. And oddly enough, Andrew is growing on me - or maybe it's Xander who is making him more bearable?

Still all about your point of view and power and the choices we make regarding both. Same could be said for the people posting on this board come to think of it. Whether or not you like any particular Buffy or Angel episode has a lot to do with your p.o.v. and how we choose to persuade others to share ours.

Dividing this into the three main plot arcs:

Willow becoming Warren:

From Kennedy et al's point of view, it is Warren at first. From Willow's point of view it is Willow, until slowly Willow begins to feel as Warren did, access Warren's feelings or so it APPEARS.

(Interesting choice on the writers/producers part to cast Adam Busch and let us see everyone else's point of view at the same time as we see Willow's. Flipping us back and forth. Makes me very aware of the fact that how we see things depends on whose eyes we're looking through.)

But as we eventually discover both from Amy and Willow herself - they aren't Warren's feelings, they are Willow's. Her guilt at letting Tara die, letting Tara go, being responsible for Tara being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her rage last year and power - came from her own rage at herself. Just as Amy's rage at Willow comes from herself. And Amy's speech is in many ways a metanarration on her mother's in Witch. How come you get it so easy, all that power, when I don't? I worked for it. It came easy for you, you got more power than I can ever imagine. So in a way it is all about power isn't it?

Amy envies Willow. This is NOT a vengeance spell. It's all about power, the desire for it, and envy of those who have it. Amy blames Willow for being cute and getting everything easily. Amy envies and covets what she thinks is Willow's greatest gift = power. Odd, Willow's power is in a way what almost destroys her, it is Willow's love and hope that sets her free. Amy seems to have fallen in the same trap Catherine Madison, her mother did, craving power - believing it will make her happy. Even her words : "how dare she get it easy, look how hard I worked, slaved, etc.." remind you of anyone? Sometimes the apple really doesn't fall far from the tree. And oddly enough, Amy does to Willow something very similar to what Amy's mother did to Amy and...what Willow wanted to do to RJ.

Does Willow deserve to be punished? That is not the issue nor is it one that we can make. What is important is Willow believes she should be punished - Willow sees herself as no better than Warren - hence the reason she became Warren. As Amy states - the hex was to take the form of punishement Willow wished on herself and at the time Willow wishes it - which is when Kennedy kisses her.

The scene with Willow and the SG is equally revealing: Buffy actually is the most practical and hits Warren. Andrew feels Warren up. Xander asks questions. The others assume it's the first. Spike passes out on the floor in object pain.

Willow's reign as Warren finally ends with a recreation of the event that took Tara's life from both Willow and Warren's point of view. Neither meant for it to happen, both wish to take it back. Both want to be strong - but the power that makes them strong is compassion - provided by Kennedy as the voice of reason and by themselves.

What I found most interesting in this scene is something I've felt for quite some time - the hardest person for us to forgive in this life is ourselves. We tend to be our own worst enemies and harshest critics. And the standards we hold others to? Are nothing compared to the standards we hold ourselves to.

Kennedy is right - magic in Btvs is like it is in fairy tales. Willow curses herself. No one hates or despises or is harsher on Willow than Willow. Amy appears somewhat surprised by this. Kennedy is less so. And how do we free the cursed, with love, which has a power greater than any witch.

2. What the heck is up with Giles? Well no one should have been surprised he wasn't the FE, we already figured out that was a huge mislead.

It finally occurs to the SG (Xander, Anya, Dawn and Andrew) that no one has touched Giles. This happens because of a concerned call from Robinson, whom I assumed was dead meat. The mere fact Robinson is still alive leads me to surmise that Giles sucessfully fought off the harbinger and took off to gather the slayers. Didn't it occur to Robinson that if the harbinger got Giles, it would have finished him off as well? This occurred to me and was why I realized Giles is corporeal. But once again, we doubt what we see. Is Giles real? And why hasn't anyone touched him until now any way?

And in the car on the way to see Giles - we have four people who perceive themselves as useless, powerless. As Anya states - one non-slayer, two geeks, and a powerless ex-demon. But are they? They tackle Giles - discovering fairly quickly that he is corporeal and Giles provides the best one liner I've heard in a while. "Wait I'm evil because I've gone off with a bunch of teenage girls and haven't tried to touch any of them?" (My only complaint here is that they are wasting ASH's talents and I was sort of hoping he was the FE because that would give the actor something interesting to do. sigh. I may have to start watching Manchild which also underuses him. Oh for a few old VR5 episodes and Taster's Choice ads.)

But the suspicions regarding Giles - are yet another comment on point of view and perception and how we don't trust what we see. What is real.

3. Spike and that pesky chip. Finally somebody suggested removing it.

Is Spike really in pain? I asked myself this question after the whole Warren/Willow deal. Is it self-inflicted? No. And he is bleeding. Also methinks it's been misfiring off and on for quite some time. As he put it - he thought it might be the FE or the soul - but they realize that's not it. He appears to have become somewhat resigned to his fate at any rate. Buffy is the one fighting.

At least both Spike and Buffy are as annoyed and sick of the potentials as I am. Which leads me to believe that the writers did what I thought they were trying to do, place me firmly in Buffy and the SG's pov. The SG finds the SIT's annoying -so do I. If I liked them, the writers would have failed. Works for me. Also they appear to actually be getting along.

But why oh why is Buffy going out of her way to help Spike?
(I admit, when she went down into the basement to see Spike, I snarkily commented - now she's going to visit her pet vampire. Because as far as I can tell that's how she's sees him, waiting for more information on this baby.) She appears to be upset to see him in pain or overwhelmed. I was cringing,(and I would have been cringing no matter who was doing that on screen), Buffy just looks perplexed?
And she does do the whole - let's leave a secret message for Riley at the flowershop ordeal.

Nice metanarration on Spike and Buffy and the underground Intiative.

But what the heck is the military doing in that facility still? And why does Buffy trust them? If I had almost gotten killed in those catacombs by a rampaging demon that reminds me of Gnarl - I wouldn't be so trusting. At any rate - we are now metanarrating on The Initiative - this round they dig up the patch Spike found and Spike tells her what he went through and she appears to wince. Gee, cool military dudes placing behavioral modification chips in vampires - don't seem so nifty any more do they, Buffy? (Not that they ever did, come to think of it - I distinctly remember Buffy chastising Riley on this on more than one occassion.) And the chip - according to the cool guy in the camoflage gear, it is killing Spike. Buffy has no time. She removes it, repairs it, or lets it kill him with increasing pain. And it is all up to Buffy. Riley said any decisions regarding Hostile 17 were to be made by her. Nice of him. In some ways this is far more interesting than if it had been Angel - because, well duh, of course she'd save him. Spike? Not so predictable. Once again we have the fatal playing damsel and the hero is faced with a difficult decision, should she save him? can she save him? how should she save him? what are the costs? Can she face those costs?
Should she give Spike the chance to have free will? This is actually different than the last three times Spike played damsel: 1) in the basement, 2) as the FE's sleeper agent,
and 3) captured and tortured by FE. Now Buffy has decide whether to remove or repair a device that prevents him from hurting humans. Granted the FE found a way to get him to do it with the device intact - but that could be simply because it was malfunctioning. Personally, I'm a little annoyed with the storyline - I've been waiting over a year for it, predicted it would happen, and it seems to be a footnote. I wanted Spike to have more input. To see what he wanted. But nooo...it's all up to Buffy. Buffy has the power. (sigh, ignore me, I'm cranky...at least we got the episode, that's enough.) Besides we are in Buffy's pov and it is her journey, so it makes sense. If you haven't figured out what she's going to do, I won't tell you. ;-)

Overall - an interesting episode, far better than the last three, much more to analyze and pull apart, but still way too much going on at the same time. I feel as if we're speeding by plot points and spending little to no time developing them or the characters like we used to. It's almost as if ME is trying to cram every single loose plot thread into this season and tie them all up and metanarrate on them all at once. Ambitious, challenging, sort of interesting, but impossible to pull off well in 22 episodes that are only 43 min's in length and with a huge cast. But hey, more power to them for trying. Always appreciate people trying to break new ground in television.

It was admittedly one of the best episodes I've seen Drew Greenberg write. How would I rate it? I don't know, beginning to hate rating things. I let you guys rate it for me.

Thoughts? Agreements? Disagreements

SK

[> Some thoughts -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:21:12 02/04/03 Tue

1) Did you notice that when Willow was acting Willowish, they showed us Warren? And, when she was acting Warrenish, they showed us Willow? It's creepy seeing Adam Busch express an emotion other than unbridled anger or fanboy glee.

2) You're assuming Spike will have no say in the matter. Buffy hasn't made a decision yet, so we can't tell right now whether she'll ask Spike's opinion.

3) As for the proto-Slayers, my gut tells me most of them have two or three more episodes before they hit expiration date (who knows, maybe we'll find some not quite bleached bones come 7.14).

4) Notice that, apparently, Robson saw only as much of the scene in London as we did. Another POV thing.

5) You're not the only one who likes Kennedy. I do as well. Perhaps it's the same reason Riley was despised in Season 4: he came after the previous, very popular lover.

[> [> Some good points -- shadowkat, 21:42:58 02/04/03 Tue

1) Did you notice that when Willow was acting Willowish, they showed us Warren? And, when she was acting Warrenish, they showed us Willow? It's creepy seeing Adam Busch express an emotion other than unbridled anger or fanboy glee.

Yes - I did, come to think of it. Very cool. What it did was show the humanity in Warren and the rage in Willow.
Although when she starts crying, it's Warren who says he won't cry like a girl. But then it's Willow who fiendishly buys the gun. And who does she find herself about to shoot but Kennedy...her new friend and potential love interest.
Very interesting.

2) You're assuming Spike will have no say in the matter. Buffy hasn't made a decision yet, so we can't tell right now whether she'll ask Spike's opinion.

I really hope you're right. Not holding out much hope from what I've read and heard about next week's episode. But willing to wait and see. If it doesn't happen? Expect a minor rant directed at ME not you. ;-)

3) As for the proto-Slayers, my gut tells me most of them have two or three more episodes before they hit expiration date (who knows, maybe we'll find some not quite bleached bones come 7.14).

Actually possibly more episodes than that. I wouldn't be surprised if they last the entire season and end up each getting a portion of Buffy's power. Personally I'm hoping for bleached bones...but I'm trying not to voice that desire too often - it tends to send other people into rants. ;-)

4) Notice that, apparently, Robson saw only as much of the scene in London as we did. Another POV thing.

Yes - interesting, didn't notice that - apparently we were in Robson's pov and not Giles at the time, hence the reason we never find out what happened.

The use of pov this year has been incredibly interesting and at times frustrating/confusing for the audience. I think the writers are emphasizing the fact that their characters are unreliable narrators and we should not trust their pov exclusively. Which gives the writers a lot of freedom to do whatever they damn well please with the backstory of the show. That's not a gaff, you stupid fan! That's just another pov. We're showing you the same thing, but another angle. How do you know that the former one was the true one?

Although it does seem oddly inconsistent to me that Angel does not need a flashlight to see in the dark and Spike does. Maybe you only get cool vampire powers after you've lived 250 years?

5) You're not the only one who likes Kennedy. I do as well. Perhaps it's the same reason Riley was despised in Season 4: he came after the previous, very popular lover.

Nice to know. That makes at least two of us. Actually come to think of it - I really liked Riley in the beginning of Season 4...he had a few weak episodes, (where the wild things are - but don't blame him for that) but I did like him while I was watching it. The only time I hated the character was in AYW, I blame Petrie for that. But then I tend to move on when the writers do.

[> [> [> Some very small points -- Indri, 22:15:08 02/04/03 Tue

Although it does seem oddly inconsistent to me that Angel does not need a flashlight to see in the dark and Spike does.

Are we sure that he needed the flashlight? I thought it was for Buffy's sake---it's easier for him to point things out to her with one, for example. Hm, but there's that bit in "Beneath You".

Oh and I'm a Kennedy fan, also.

Indri

[> [> [> [> Buffy shouldn't need it, either -- Earl Allison, 03:19:17 02/05/03 Wed

If I remember, didn't Buffy tell Xander to shut his flashlight off in "Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest"? I thought Buffy was pretty much able to see in the dark as well.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Can someone verify or correct me?

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> [> No, you were right -- Tyreseus, 03:32:23 02/05/03 Wed

Although I'm not sure if "seeing in the dark" was her reason or if she was just getting night-eyes, or if she didn't want to alert vamps to their presence with big glowy beams of light.

In any case, she did tell Xander to kill the flashlight.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No, you were right -- trebor, 14:26:42 02/05/03 Wed

In Harvest/Hellmouth Buffy does tell Xander to turn the flashlight off, so that they're not given away to vampires that might be lurking.

In Choices, when the lights go out in the cafeteria, Angel is the only one able to see clearly.

I had thought Spike's flashlight was for helping Buffy to see things.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No, you were right -- Arethusa, 14:39:46 02/05/03 Wed

I thought it was an X-Files thing-a blond Mulder and Scully, surrounded by government conspiracies. I thought the Initaitive guys were sent by Finn, and that the lab had been closed all this time. Perhaps the government beaurocrats responsible for demon disposal shirked their duties, or were scared off by any demons whose deaths had been greatly exaggerated.

[> [> [> [> [> Possible (somewhat serviceable) explanation? -- Ixchel, 16:05:24 02/05/03 Wed

Was there any light at all, besides Buffy and Spike's flashlights? I don't remember there being any, but I'd have to watch again to be sure.

If there wasn't there is the fact that cats can see in extremely low light, but can't see at all in total darkness (their eyes making full use of any available light, but being blind without any light just as a human would be). If Slayers and vampires have similar vision then that would explain the flashlights (assuming total absence of light).

Of course this could be just my weird attempt to explain away an inconsistency, but it works for me (or will until I watch TKIM again and discover, yes there was some small amount of ambient light).

Ixchel

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Possible (somewhat serviceable) explanation? -- Slainey, 19:29:00 02/07/03 Fri

There was red light. Maybe that's not useful to vamp or slayer eyes. :-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, there goes my theory... ;) -- Ixchel, 22:11:31 02/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Boston at night! San Francisco at night! -- Solitude1056, 17:42:18 02/05/03 Wed

Because if he didn't need a flashlight, that'd be 50% less illumination on my television screen, and it was already a murkey and hard-to-see scene as it was. Hence the flashback (so to speak) on the old joke postcards, where the picture was pitch black and the print on the facing side would say, with dramatic exclamation points, "Boston at night!!!" etc.

Bwahahaha.

[> [> [> Re: liking Kennedy -- leslie, 13:32:35 02/05/03 Wed

I was kind of on the fence about Kennedy, but this episode really did make me like her. From the beginning, I was uncertain about her interest in Willow--she was very aggressive at a point when she didn't know anything more about Willow than what she looked like. But it seemed to me that what she showed in this episode was that a) she was willing to open her mind to things she thought were "crap" if someone she cared for showed her their value, and b) she has the beginnings of the same kind of compassion that Buffy shows.

Besides Willow's point of view, I think there's an interesting subtext in the two kisses between Willow and Kennedy. The first kiss, the one that turns Willow into Warren, does seem to be a purely sexual, seductive kiss, and has bad repercussions. The second one, which turns Willow back into herself, is a compassionate kiss that derives from emotion and caring rather than physical desire--which is simply a restatement of the entire sexual message that ME hammers home over and over.

I also think that Willow's repeat of Warren's attack has the effect of offering a certain sympathy for Warren, who is purely the evil bad guy the first time round (because, to use s'kat's approach, we see it only from Xander's pov): Willow blames Kennedy for turning her into Warren--on the principle of "this would never have happened if you hadn't kissed me"--and her reaction is to attempt to eliminate the person she blames for exposing her weaknesses. Warren, I think, was essentially doing the same thing when he attacked Buffy. If you destroy the person who exposes you, you are no longer exposed. But I also think it's interesting that Willow sees herself as both the person who killed Tara and the person she killed, victimizer and victim. On some level, she feels that Tara's death is her fault--Tara wouldn't have even been there if it weren't for her, she wasn't able to bring her back, it was her screw-ups that caused the break-up between them in the first place--but also, she seems to realize that as a result of Tara's death, she too died, part of her was skinned alive--I think this echoes Buffy's apparent feelings about Dawn being the young and innocent part of herself that she's lost, and that's the part that Willow realizes she lost, too.

So anyway, what made me like Kennedy out of this: she didn't freeze when faced with Willow and a gun, she didn't attack, she talked to Willow and reached her in a way that all of Buffy's preaching never does. Buffy keeps thinking that if she just tells Willow something, Willow, being a smart girl, will realize the intellectual and practical truth of what she's saying and behave accordingly. She tries to appeal to Willow's mind, which only reinforces Willow's feeling that her feelings are being ignored. Kennedy addressed Willow's feelings in a way that all the Scoobies have completely overlooked.

[> [> [> [> yes that's exactly why I started liking Kennedy. Well put. -- s'kat, 14:14:09 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: liking Kennedy -- Dochawk, 23:28:23 02/05/03 Wed

What a fabulous post. I liked Kennedy from the get go, but the final scene really cemented it.

Why is it that Buffy has such compassion, especially for those she doesn't know well, but for the three people who matter most to her: Willow, Xander and Dawn, she can't express it in a way that they feel it?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's compassion -- Just George, 10:16:22 02/07/03 Fri

Dochawk: "Why is it that Buffy has such compassion, especially for those she doesn't know well, but for the three people who matter most to her: Willow, Xander and Dawn, she can't express it in a way that they feel it?"

I split this in two, Friends (Willow & Xander) and Family (Dawn).

I'm pretty sure that Willow and Xander know how much Buffy cares for them. They have cried together, laughed together, and the house is always full of pictures of them crowding on top of each other to get everyone into the frame. I heard someone say that you don't know if you have a real friend until you call them out of the blue at 2:00 AM and ask for a ride home from the airport. If they come, you have a pretty good idea they are a real friend. Buffy is the ultimate 2:00 AM friend.

Dawn is a different matter. It is often harder for people to connect with family. At one level, if Buffy treats Dawn like a kid, then she is smothering her. If she treats Dawn like an adult and a Scooby, then she is ignoring her. Buffy doesn't tell Xander and Willow that she loves them every day. They don't need to hear it. Buffy might need to tell Dawn that she loves her every day. Dawn does seem to need to hear it.

-Just George

[> [> [> [> [> [> Plus, Same Time Same Place spoilers -- Rahael, 10:51:39 02/07/03 Fri

I'd suggest that Buffy giving of her own power to Willow to help heal her is a pretty good act of wordless, 'feeling' which shows friendship and love.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Plus, Same Time Same Place spoilers -- leslie, 13:38:37 02/07/03 Fri

"I'd suggest that Buffy giving of her own power to Willow to help heal her is a pretty good act of wordless 'feeling' which shows friendship and love."

Well, on the one hand, yes, but on the other, this is happening after Willow has well hit bottom and is on the way up, and also, what Willow is trying to do is the "sensible" thing to do. When Willow is going postal on the world at the end of S6, all Buffy can think is that if she can just reason with Willow, everyhing will be okay. And that isn't the first time: When Glory sucked Tara's brain, Buffy thought that simply explaining to Willow that going after Glory was not sensible, and she thought she had actually persuaded her, until Spike--Mr. Emotional Reaction--pointed out how stupid that was, and incidentally, specifically pointed out that Buffy was overlooking Willow's emotions, and that Willow's emotions would override her intellect in such a situation. So, when Darth Rosenberg emerges after Tara is not just brain-sucked but actually murdered, it isn't as though this is a state that Buffy has never seen Willow in before, but yet again, she wants to appeal to Willow's mind rather than acknowledging her emotions. Now, this makes sense for Buffy at this point, because she has spent the whole season denying her emotions, specifically her feelings about death, so she may be unconsciously avoiding an issue that she herself doesn't want to deal with. However, I think one of the reasons Willow's emotions are so difficult for her to control is that she feels that she isn't "supposed" to have irrational, emotional reactions because she's brainy, she should be able to think things through and realize that she is reacting emotionally and put that aside for the "sensible" reaction, and the reactions of people around her only reinforce that. So, on the whole, while Buffy certainly loves Willow and considers her her best friend, she really doesn't understand a huge chunk of Willow's personality and consistently missteps in her reactions to it; if she did understand it, I'm sure she would react with compassion, but since she can't even see it, she can't and doesn't, and that's a lack that Willow evidently feels.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject line made me think of Lord of the Rings: "...the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many..." -- yez, 11:19:58 02/07/03 Fri

May be neither here nor there, and compassion and pity aren't the same thing, but especially in the cases of Angel and Spike, Buffy's decisions have affected many people. And like the Golum (sp?) who once was a hobbit, Angel and Spike were distortions of the creatures they once were.

yez

[> [> [> Re: Some good points -- slain, 13:58:41 02/05/03 Wed

Although it does seem oddly inconsistent to me that Angel does not need a flashlight to see in the dark and Spike does. Maybe you only get cool vampire powers after you've lived 250 years?

I think you have to save up the tokens on the back of packets of A-B negative.

Actually the real explanation (and it's a good one) is that there's a difference between seeing in the dark and seeing in real dark. Real dark, which you only experience in very deep caves, you can only 'see' in by radar, like bats. Infra red doesn't work, really, because there isn't enough heat to see by. On the surface of the earth there's always moonlight, starlight and light pollution, so it's not real dark. Someone or something with very good eyesight can see in this kind of dark - but they couldn't see in real dark, because there's no light to see by. So, in real dark of the Initiative caves far underground, Spike couldn't see anything without the flashlight. I really don't know why I'm explaining all this.

[> [> [> [> LOL! I appreciated the explanation. -- shadowkat, 14:19:28 02/05/03 Wed

I really don't know why I'm explaining all this.

If it makes you feel any better, I not only appreciated the explanation, it taught me something I didn't know.
And the last comment which I reprinted above made me laugh.
So thanks. That actually makes a lot of sense and explains why he was using his lighter in the cave with Lurkee in Season 6 and why he had candles lit in his crypt.

[> [> [> [> slain, sorry for repeating your explanation above... -- Ixchel, 16:21:38 02/05/03 Wed

I didn't see your post before I offered my similar theory.

When you save enough tokens, are you then able to shimmy up 30 ft. vents too? ;)

Ixchel

[> [> [> It was cool the way both of their flashlights always pointed exactly the same way -- spaceclown, 20:44:04 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> A point on a point: -- HonorH, 23:46:47 02/04/03 Tue

2) You're assuming Spike will have no say in the matter. Buffy hasn't made a decision yet, so we can't tell right now whether she'll ask Spike's opinion.

This would be nice--if Spike's conscious and coherent. He'd collapsed before we saw him on the bed with the Initiative guys gathered 'round. It's possible his input will have to go unheard because there's not time to wait for him to regain consciousness.

[> I like Kennedy, too. -- HonorH, 23:20:49 02/04/03 Tue

What I don't like is all the Mary Sue talk. Not accurate for Kennedy. MS comes in, fights better than the heroine, wins everyone's hearts, and solves everyone's problems. Think Jonathan in "Superstar". So far, we've barely seen Kennedy fight. The only fight she's won, she fought with three other girls. The SG seems to like her, but we haven't had any declarations of adoration yet, not even from Willow. Kennedy also hasn't solved anyone's problems. She figures out what's up with Willow and is able to help her reverse it (and that's what I think the kiss was about--about giving Willow compassion and helping her see her way clear of the hex), but that's it. She's a little older and more mature than the other SiTs, and that's her main advantage.

Anyway, I like her, and much as I loved Tara, it's good that Willow's finally letting her go. Just hope they don't rush the Willow/Kennedy relationship.

[> [> I like Kennedy, BUT... -- Belladonna, 11:20:32 02/05/03 Wed

I'm not sure how I feel about the forced attraction between these two. I've never had a problem with Kennedy as a character. Some may say she's a Mary Sue (which is a good argument), but I'm just happy that we have at least one non-whining proto-slayer. My problem is I feel like ME is forcing this relationship. We all know they got a lot of backlash about how they killed Tara (dead-evil lesbian cliche). I also know they got a lot of heat over whether or not Willow was gay or bisexual, and whether they would have her hook up with a guy this time around. I fell like they are forcing this to say, "See? She *is* a lesbian!" I don't know...I just feel like it would take Willow longer to move on. It's not as if she and Tara broke up - she died. And I'm not just some Willow/Tara shipper who can't stand anything but them, together. I wouldn't mind Willow with someone else, if it felt real, and not forced. Just my two cents...

[> [> Re: I like Kennedy, too. (spoilers S7) -- Shiraz, 13:12:39 02/05/03 Wed

You're forgetting the Bringer she casually offed in Showtime. Something Dawn was shown to not be capable of (Sleeper). Moreover, this is the same fight scene that had Xander getting his ass kicked and needing to be rescued. So, while she wasn't shown as a better fighter than Buffy, it was heavily implied that she fought better than the ordinaries and the other potentials.

Also, Superstar was a purposeful exaggeration of the Mary Sue phenomenom; for a less sarcastic MS watch any Star Trek TNG with Wesley Crusher.

-Shiraz

[> [> [> Regarding Kennedy and Mary Sues-- -- HonorH, 15:02:15 02/05/03 Wed

So, while she wasn't shown as a better fighter than Buffy, it was heavily implied that she fought better than the ordinaries and the other potentials.

But that would make sense, wouldn't it? Kennedy's been trained from the time she was young, so it's only realistic she'd be a competent fighter by now. Furthermore, she *is* a Potential, which may be less than a Slayer, but is more than a normal like Xander or Dawn, as we were repeatedly told in "Potential".

As for the Wesley Crusher comparison, I don't see it. WC could reprogram the ship with two isolinear chips and a data padd. Thus far, Kennedy hasn't been shown solving anyone's problems. We haven't seen that she's got any particular skills that can't be matched by the rest of the Scooby Gang. The show hasn't centered on her except in her relationship with Willow. She's not taking over the Scooby Gang, which is what a Mary Sue does--and believe me, I know my Mary Sues, having been in Highlander fandom, where they run rampant. Kennedy would have to be a good deal more annoying to even begin to qualify by my definition.

[> [> [> [> Kennedys Super Power -- WickedBuffy, 16:04:23 02/05/03 Wed

"We haven't seen that she's got any particular skills that can't be matched by the rest of the Scooby Gang"

I believe her skills in seduction and flirting can't be matched by the Scooby Gang even if they added all theirs up toegether. ;>

Like x-ray vision or the ability to stretch yourself like a rubber band, you never know WHEN that particular skill might just save the world.

[> [> [> [> Re: Regarding Kennedy and Mary Sues-- -- Shiraz, 16:32:43 02/05/03 Wed

I'll admit that Kennedy's Mary Sue tendencies are probably minimal compared with the fan-fics your used to, but its still my opinion that she intrudes into the story too far without contributing to the story.

"But that would make sense, wouldn't it? Kennedy's been trained from the time she was young, so it's only realistic she'd be a competent fighter by now. Furthermore, she *is* a Potential, which may be less than a Slayer, but is more than a normal like Xander or Dawn, as we were repeatedly told in "Potential"."

That's kind of my point, I know Xander and Dawn, I route for them because I know what there going through. Their abilities have come to them from being knocked around by every monster of the week for seven years, I've seen them develop. As for Kennedy, she was trained from a young age by an nameless (and curiously unmourned) watcher, never saw a vamp until she got to Sunnydale, all the while being raised in the lap of luxury, yet the moment she arrives in Sunnydale she jumps to the head of her class of potentials.

Also, I'm not sure I accept the whole Kennedy didn't save Willow arguement because that's not what I saw.

You see, I'm kind of like Xander, I accept what I see until something comes along to prove otherwise. I saw Willow at the end of her emotional rope, falling to pieces. Then I saw Kennedy kiss Willow and the spell braking. I didn't see Willow so much as gesture during this scene, and remember this wasn't like STSP where Willow did the spell herself subconsciously, it was a hex placed on her by Amy, so there was magic that needed undoing.

Furthermore, I think Kennedy's speech about having 'figured it out' backs up my interpretation of events. She certainly thought she was breaking the spell with that kiss.

So what we have here IS a fairytale: A beautiful princess is cursed by a wicked witch, but is saved by the kiss of a White Knight.

ME has done much better.

Shiraz

[> [> [> [> [> Well, I disagree. -- HonorH, 22:31:11 02/05/03 Wed

My acid test: if someone wrote this up as a fanfic, would I think their OFC was a Mary Sue? For Kennedy, I come up with a firm "no". She's not gorgeous enough, she's too forward, thinks magic is a lot of mystical mumbo-jumbo and isn't afraid to say it, pretty much would have gotten her tail end kicked by Amy if they'd gone head-to-head, and isn't the focus of enough of the overall storyline. As for her distracting from the other characters--the same thing's been said at various times about Anya, Riley, Tara, and Dawn. Never agreed about them, either.

Also, I disagree on her lips being the spell-breaker. Amy made it pretty clear that her hex was brought on by the need for penance or self-punishment. When Willow started punishing herself for being attracted to Kennedy and having feelings for her, the curse commenced. When Kennedy helped her see that it wasn't wrong to feel the way she did and let Tara go, the curse was broken. Willow's insight, not Kennedy's magical kiss, was the key.

But we may just have to agree to disagree on Kennedy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I disagree. -- Malandanza, 23:31:15 02/05/03 Wed

"Amy made it pretty clear that her hex was brought on by the need for penance or self-punishment. When Willow started punishing herself for being attracted to Kennedy and having feelings for her, the curse commenced. When Kennedy helped her see that it wasn't wrong to feel the way she did and let Tara go, the curse was broken. Willow's insight, not Kennedy's magical kiss, was the key."

I have been wondering about the timing of Amy's curse. It seems to me that if Amy was going to curse Wilow, it would have been last season, when Amy hit rock bottom and had to deal with her issues on her own, while Willow got the love and support of her friends (prior to Tara's death). Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Amy did cast the curse last season shortly before Tara is killed.

Willow is running on pure fury -- she doesn't feel the need to self-punishment -- the curse doesn't fire. After she burns out, she heads to England, expecting punishment, but still not feeling a need for penance. She learns in the protected environment of the Coven -- Giles doesn't impress upon her the need for guilt. He's there to support her unconditionally. So it's not until Willow heads back to America that she really starts thinking about what she's done. It's a long flight -- she worries about her reception. How can her freinds accept her after she tried to kill them? He guilt triggers the curse and she's out of phase with Xander, Buffy and Dawn (but not Anya...).

What else does she have to feel guilty about? Oh yeah, flaying Warren alive. And suddenly there's a demon in Sunnydale peeling the skin off of helpless torture victims -- and Willow ends up on the menu. Very suspicious timing -- but not if it was the second firing of the curse.

Next, Willow is feeling guilty about forgetting about Tara so soon after her death -- the curse fires off a third time and she becomes Warren, the person she most closely identifies as void of human feelings. She heads to the campus Wiccans for assistance (she met Tara at the Wicca group, so I think she was hoping to find another genuine practitioner amongst the nominal Wiccans and was surprised to see that the group had evolved into a real coven) and runs into Amy.

Okay, suppose Amy had cursed Willow recently, then saw Willow march into the meeting -- wouldn't she have tried to avoid a confrontation? But now lets say Amy cast the spell long ago, before she started on the road to her own recovery -- a little guilt, perhaps, but there also might be a reminder of why she had found Willow so annoying. Willow get the get-out-of-jail-free card and Amy has to suffer on her own. Amy might be in enough of a recovered state to not curse Willow now but still have enough resentment to not feel much regret for past deeds.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Could be. Could very well be! -- HonorH, 23:41:03 02/05/03 Wed

Cool theory, and it would definitely explain the screaming coincidence of Gnarl and Willow intersecting--aside, of course, from the Threefold Rule perhaps biting her in the butt.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well that would explain a helluva lot, wouldn't it? Nice theory. -- yez, 15:44:26 02/06/03 Thu

My working theory was that Amy was being influenced by the FE, particularly because of that power line. Though I guess these two theories aren't mutually exclusive.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I disagree. -- WickedBuffy, 10:18:25 02/06/03 Thu

"Willow's insight, not Kennedy's magical kiss, was the key."

I think Willow accepting Kennedys kiss was the outward, physical symbol of Willow's insight.

And now I wonder what Willow would have done to outwardly show her insight if Kennedy hadn't been there. }:>

[> [> [> [> Could someone kindly tell me what a Mary Sue is? Etymology, etc? -- Trilby Clueless, 10:47:12 02/06/03 Thu

I don't know what it means, or what the source is, etc...
It's driving me round the bend!
Thank you.

[> [> [> [> [> Quick history and definition of Mary Sue -- HonorH, 13:40:01 02/06/03 Thu

Mary Sue got her start in Star Trek (Original Series) fandom. Someone wrote a story called "Lieutenant Mary Sue" about a new lieutenant on the Enterprise who could basically do anything. She was gorgeous, everyone loved her, she was super-competent at everything she tried, and, of course, she saved the ship when none of the guys could.

Nowadays, the epithet Mary Sue is used to describe any female character (or male, for that matter) who follows the above pattern. Often, Mary Sue is a self-insert on the part of the author, who may even share Mary Sue's name and basic appearance. Mary Sue is ultra-competent, gorgeous, everyone loves her, she solves everyone's problems (you occasionally see her cropping up in fanfic to lecture Buffy on how badly she treats Spike/Angel/Xander/whoever the author's favorite character is), and in general takes over the fic. Very tiresome. The episode "Superstar" was a shoutout to this phenomenon, when Jonathan turned himself into basically a Mary Sue.

Unfortunately, some people tend to throw the Mary Sue name around too casually. There are those who will attach it to *any* original female character (OFC) in fanfic, no matter how well-drawn she is. Thus, a lot of authors will avoid writing in any OFCs at all for fear of flames. And, in this case, I think the label has been unfairly attached to canon character Kennedy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agree -- s'kat, 15:29:06 02/06/03 Thu

Unfortunately, some people tend to throw the Mary Sue name around too casually. There are those who will attach it to *any* original female character (OFC) in fanfic, no matter how well-drawn she is. Thus, a lot of authors will avoid writing in any OFCs at all for fear of flames. And, in this case, I think the label has been unfairly attached to canon character Kennedy.

I would agree. If we start throwing it around in this fashion, we could literally attach the character lable to any underdeveloped peripheral character we don't like.
And as I've quickly discovered on this board - one person's
"MS" or "hated" character is another's favorite and vice versa. So to keep the peace? Perhaps we should veer away from disparaging characters? I promise I will delete prior to posting any of my negative opinionated mutterings on my most hated peripheral characters - if everyone else will agree do the same?? ;-) SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I tend to default to liking 'em anyway. -- HonorH, 15:37:33 02/06/03 Thu

Really, I can't think of any multiple-ep character on BtVS or AtS who I've really taken a dislike to--well, that I wasn't supposed to, anyway. Was desperately wanting to smack Amy around Tuesday night.

Of course, we should feel free to criticize a character and/or a character's actions in any episode. Blanket "I hate Character X" statements don't exactly contribute to discussion, IMHO, unlike, say, "I objected strongly to what Character X did in this episode," or even, "I don't think Character X will be good for the Scooby Gang in the long run, and here's why."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Me, too. -- dream, 09:13:49 02/07/03 Fri

Dawn was the hardest for me to warm up to, but now I even like her. Most of my issue with Dawn had to do with making Buffy into a mother of a teenager on top of everything else. It just seemed way over the top. (Personal issue alert - I am a woman in her thirties with no interest in ever having a child. Every single person I have ever been friends with is pregnant, or trying to get pregnant, or has child/ren at this point. All anyone ever seems to talk about is motherhood. Fine if you're into it. A little draining if you're not - oh, and people tend to assume that make you a sociopath. So it wasn't exactly the best time to make my favorite ass-kicking feminist icon into a mom. Poor Dawn bore the brunt of my personal frustration.) Now that that aspect is being played up less, I'm happier with Dawn - besides, they've given her a much better role this year. Other than that, I have pretty much liked every character I was supposed to like, and hated every character I was supposed to hate.* I guess I'm easily manipulated.

*Are we SUPPOSED to like Vi? I'm going on the assumption that's impossible.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I tend to default to liking 'em anyway. -- s'kat, 09:26:03 02/07/03 Fri

To be honest my problem with the multiple-ep non-contracted/non-regular characters this year isn't really that I dislike them personally, but that they appear to be taking time away from discovering more about the leads. It could just be that it's the last season and I feel the time constraints more? By comparison - On Ats - there appears to be more focus on leads and less on external characters we haven't really seen before now. (Only Gwen has showed up and only twice as an example. Compare this to...Btvs's potentials, wood, andrew (although Andrew is sort of similar to Ats Lilah in the recurring category), and all the one-shots.)

KIM is one of the few episodes this year that I felt the non-regular characters actually added something to the story and didn't detract. Kennedy and Amy - added to Willow's arc, as did the reappearence of Warren, which for once did NOT annoy me - I actually liked it - it resolved some questions for me and made all four characters interesting. Andrew - his interactions with Anya, Xander and Dawn and even Giles - gave us more information. He actually made that part of the episode lighter and more interesting. And The Initiative appearing added to Spike and Buffy's arc. Now there are some re-appearing peripherial characters coming up that will add a great deal to the arcs...but they haven't really until now. They were "place-setters" (TM cjl). Wood is one of them. But right now? He's been little more than a place-setter in most episodes - his best episodes to date were actually HIM and BoTN. Same with the Potentials, which I think we're supposed to find annoying b/c the main characters do, would be pretty awkward if we loved them and the main characters were annoyed by them. Only problem is they feel like white noise cluttering the screen. Peripherial characters purpose in a story is to do the following: push the main characters plots forward(as well as the overall plot), provide more information on the main characters by acting as a mirror or epiphany of their emotional arc in some way, and reiterate what ever theme is being pushed forward. IT works best if they do all three. An excellent example of a peripherial character who accomplished this is the character of Anya in Season 3 Btvs. In The Wish - she gets us to see new sides of all the characters. In Dopplegangland - she shows us another side of Willow, and later in the season she provides comic relief and exposition on the Big Bad. Larry is another example of this working very well - his character builds on Xander's arc and also affects OZ and Buffy. Amy is also a very good peripherial character - as a contrast to Willow and Buffy throughout the years. Compare this to Andrew - who doesn't quite pull it off as strongly.
Although I think he's gotten better at it as they've moved forward. Or Wood? Or even the potentials? Not as strong a characterization. Snyder - obnoxious as he was - served as a good contrast to Joyce, Giles and showed Buffy's difficulty with authority. Flutie was too nice and ineffectual - didn't work - so got rid of him. That's how a non-regular character works - to bring out something interesting in the main ones and not just Buffy - we have by my count at least 6 main characters, each is being explored this year - it's their identities the show is most interested in examining. The peripheral characters are only around - to well examine them, push forward the plot, and develop the theme. While it's nice if we like them or they are good for the characters - that's not their overall purpose here. So when I look at them - I wonder - okay how does this character move the plot forward, make me look at the main characters in a new way, and comment on the theme?
Or is it just a place-setter or small plot mover?

In KIM - The peripherial characters weren't white noise, they didn't use up time we could have spent pushing plot forward or learning more about the principals relationships with each other. They did the jobs I mentioned above.

Unfortunately I sense a desire on the writers part to try and make these peripherals more central characters. I hope I'm wrong. Because it's too late in the game for this. Season 3, 2 or even 4 or 5 - yeah you could introduce new regular characters. Season 7?

Problem is - this late in the game - the show has in essence become a serial. To try and develope new characters when you already have a regular cast of 7...is trying to do too much, I think. JMO.

Well that was a ramble. Anyways hope made some sense.
SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We still can't be positive it's the last, though. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:06:46 02/07/03 Fri

And the Potentials do serve a purpose: they mirror where Buffy and the Scoobies once were, and to show how far they have come.

As for Wood, while he hasn't done much, also isn't a constant presence. He's only been in six episodes, by my count, and usually he's only around when Buffy is also around, and often their conversations serve to either advance the plot, reveal something about Buffy, or provide a little metanarraration.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I get it now! Many thanks! (NT) -- Trilby (newbie much?), 09:12:09 02/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Quick history and definition of Mary Sue -- Rhys, 03:54:19 02/08/03 Sat

The best description I've ever read of a Mary Sue is this one by Melissa Reimer:

*You already know Mary Sue. Mary Sue is the perky, bright, helpful sixteen-year-old ensign who beams about the ship. Everyone on the ship likes Mary Sue, because Mary Sue is good at everything. Mary Sue is an engineer, a doctor in training, a good leader, an excellent cook, and is usually a beautiful singer. Mary Sue often has mental powers that may manifest themselves as telepathy, precognition, or magic. If Mary Sue is very young, she is often the offspring of one or two already established characters. If she's a little older, she will probably end up sleeping with the author's favorite character. Her name is often the author's name, be it a net name, a favored nickname, or the author's middle name (this is seen in the most famous Mary Sue of all time, Wesley Crusher, who was named after Trek creator Eugene Wesley Roddenberry). By the end of the story, Mary Sue will be in bed with the desired character, will have beamed away amid cheers from all the regulars, or will be dead, usually accompanied by heavy mourning from the cast. The reader, on the other hand, will be celebrating. BTW, Mary Sue's twin brother [often referred to as Larry Stu] can often be identified by his brooding, solitary behaviour, matched by his maverick disregard for authority."

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Could someone kindly tell me what a Mary Sue is? Etymology, etc? -- Shiraz, 11:20:17 02/07/03 Fri

This was the site I found most useful on the subject:

www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.HTM

Shiraz

[> Giles (Spoilers 4.13? Tonight's Btvs) -- Quentin Collins, 23:49:48 02/04/03 Tue

The Giles as FE red herring was, to me, not the important point concerning Giles in "Killer in Me". What jumps out at me is that nobody HAS hugged him. Nobody HAS sat down with him for a heart to heart chat.

While ASH did not have much screen time or dialogue in the episode, I thought that his pensive moment sitting alone before the campfire communicated more than could have been said in one hundred lines of dialogue. Giles is hurting and feeling alone and scared. His whole world has begun to crumble. The Watcher's Council, which he has devoted his adult lift to serving, is in ruins. Most of his friends and colleagues are dead or MIA. He seems in many ways burned out and suffering the effects of great emotional trauma.

In many ways, it seems as if Buffy has assumed total leadership of the Scoobies and the SIT's. Giles has been relegated to the guy who retrieves the SIT's and shows them how to do the mystical Slayer hokey pokey.

I am very eager to see what ramifications these things will have on what is coming.

[> [> Re: Giles (Spoilers 4.13? Tonight's Btvs) -- anom, 23:30:07 02/05/03 Wed

"Giles has been relegated to the guy who retrieves the SIT's and shows them how to do the mystical Slayer hokey pokey."

If the ritual is the same, Giles has to shake his gourd--which means he has to lift & move a physical object. Of course, the Scoobies weren't there to see that.

[> On POV... -- Alison, 03:11:53 02/05/03 Wed

When Kennedy is seen by the others, she seems big-sisterly, steady, and responsible...but in Willows POV she seems innocent, like a naughty child....
but i guess after all that Willows been through, she would.

[> Some fun thoughts of my own -- Tyreseus, 03:30:16 02/05/03 Wed

Great job shadowkat.

I'm a Kennedy fan, too. Largely because she said one of the things that has bugged me for a while. When she and Willow were on her date and Willow asked if Kennedy had some sort of "lesbidar" and Kennedy pointed out that there is a better word (i.e. "gaydar") it touched on something that's bothered me a bit. Okay, so Willow falls in love with a woman. She's all about that one woman, but still, has it ever been like Willow to not do all sorts of research and learning about new things? I mean, other than Tara, she had zero interaction with anyone or anything else "gay." Kennedy was dead-on with the "you don't get out much" line.

Amy's POV. I thought they could have done more with this. I wanted more when she said, "hey, I'm not the bad guy here." Oh really? How do you get to that conclusion little miss "my mother imprisoned me in someone else's body and it really sucked"? Weak on the justifying character actions... but on the other hand, if we'd forgotten the little power message from "lessons" it was handed to us on a silver platter again by Amy. Seems Kennedy wasn't the one who needed to hear it, though. I wonder if Kennedy will relate it to Willow, and what the SGs will do about Amy in episodes to come. And could they ever trust another "apology" from her?

Speaking of power(less)... the teenager, ex-demon and two geeks seem pretty down on themselves after last week (particularly after Xander's speech last week). Okay, so it's mostly Anya who's dissing the "normal" scoobies, but it seemed a bit overly harsh. The fact that she hasn't discussed what she learned from the Eye of Beljoxa makes me wonder if she's carrying around a bit too much guilt. This girl really needs a friend to talk to. Probably Xander, but if the past prevents that from happening, Andrew might be a good listener (if she gagged him first).

Buffy & Spike
I'll be the first to weigh in on the debate - should she have the chip removed?
Yes. I went back and forth on this one for a while. It's easy to argue that a chipless Spike is like a well-trained pitbull without a leash... sooner or later accidents can happen.

However, if Buffy doesn't remove the chip, she's lost all credibility from the "I believe in you speech." Furthermore, if Spike is to have a true chance at redemption, it can only happen if he looks temptation in the face and resists. But this choice is more about Buffy than it is about Spike. Will Buffy choose to be the slayer - protect the innocent and keep the chip in just in case - or the friend? If it's all about power, power doesn't always equal control over someone else's lives and actions. If the fear Buffy has is that Spike will turn evil again without the chip (even with the soul) than she will make the decision later to kill him. For now, she needs to let Spike make some decisions for himself.

Masq, you must be thrilled. The whole Buffy/chip scenario fits in perectly with your new "Liberty and Self-Determination" section. Hope it generates some lively debate for you.

Tyreseus

[> [> Interesting post...agree -- shadowkat, 07:40:51 02/05/03 Wed

I tend to agree with the points you made here and you brought up some interesting issues I hadn't really gotten to address.

1. The Whole Willow/Kennedy thing - I liked their discussion. It drove home the point that Willow fell in love with a woman. And not "women" in general. But a person. What I've always liked about Willow's character in contrast to the other characters - is Willow won't go there unless she loves you and they genuinely love her. She fell
for OZ and she fell for Tara. And in falling deeply in love with Tara, (I'd argue deeper than she fell for OZ), she came to the conclusion she was gay and preferred women overall to men. But she knows very little about it, which also in a way makes sense - it was all about Tara for Willow, not all about being gay. (OTOH I'm beginning to question how great Willow was on research - she knew very little about the chip.)

2. Agree on Amy - they could have built this up a bit better. It was a huge metanarration on Witch without the easy out/resolution. The bad guy doesn't get eliminated. Why? Because Amy is right in a way...she's not completely the "bad guy" here. She gave into the temptation to hurt a former friend and use power to do it. And the way Willow chose for Amy's vengeance to work was ironically very similar to what happened to Amy. Is Amy evil? Not really.
She's both. Grey. Just as Willow is not evil. I think the hex was a one time deal - sort of Amy's parting gift. I doubt the SG can do much - since a)can't prove it and b)Amy has enough power to transport Kennedy across town. But that's not important. What was important is what you pointed out above - the whole power thing. Who has it. Who's willing to use it. But most important how we choose to use it. Amy chose to use her power the same way her mothere did - hasn't learned much from her Wicca group has she? Or from what happened to Willow?

3.Buff and Spike -

What I'm hoping for in this story line is we start seeing Spike make some choices. Maybe it's just me, but I keep sensing that Buffy is making all the choices and holding Spike's leash or the FE is. The chip is in Spike's head - shouldn't Spike have some say in the matter? Granted he'll probably want it removed. But I'd be more appreciative of Buffy's choice if she asked him first. Found out what he wanted.

Although I agree Buffy's choice is equally important. Will she play friend/counselor or slayer? This week she was very much in friend/counselor mode. I tend to prefer the character in friend/counselor mode. But that's just me.

Also agree - that this very much a self-determination/violation/coercion issue.

If Buffy makes the choice without consulting Spike - then I'd say she's still holding his leash, still treating him like her vampire dog.

If she consults Spike first and Spike makes the choice and she follows it = then I'd say she is finally letting him choose his fate and is no longer treating him like her pet robot, which has been my biggest problem with Buffy in the B/S relationship.

Spike apparently wants to be chained in the basement and from what I've seen feels a bit like the group in Xander's car, powerless. Even more powerless than they feel actually - he can't trust himself not to hurt people, he can't stop the firing of the chip, he can't choose his own fate...he chose a soul and from his pov, he's even more trapped than before. And now? He is forced to seek help from his worst enemies: The Iniative and Riley Finn, who will do whatever Buffy tells them to do. Spike has to trust Buffy to do what she feels in his best interest. Once again his life, his mind, his future is in her grasp. She could let him die the most painful death possible. She could insist he keep that chip, which may be just as bad. OR she could remove it forcing him to deal with the possibility that he could hurt people without the FE's trigger. How ironic a fate for the vampire who once stalked her and attempted to kill her?

How do we deal with the killer in us? Put it on a leash with a chip? Cast a magic spell? OR somehow come to grips with it and choose freely not to go there?

[> [> [> Not sure about what Spike would choose -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:56:37 02/05/03 Wed

He may simply want the chip repaired. After all, he willingly chains himself up to stop from hurting people. It makes sense he might want to take whatever precautions possible that he doesn't hurt people.

Which brings up an interesting possibility: what if Spike wants the chip repaired, but Buffy has it removed?

[> [> [> [> Re: Not sure about what Spike would choose -- shadowkat, 09:19:28 02/05/03 Wed

He may simply want the chip repaired. After all, he willingly chains himself up to stop from hurting people. It makes sense he might want to take whatever precautions possible that he doesn't hurt people.

Which brings up an interesting possibility: what if Spike wants the chip repaired, but Buffy has it removed?

This is the story I really really want to see. But
I'm afraid they have so much ground to cover - they'll skip by it. But it is a question I've been wrestling with.

What if he's passed out and she never asks him and just has them remove it? He's never given the choice? Or what if
she does discuss it with him and does remove it instead of doing what he wants? I agree if she asked Spike, he would probably want it repaired, just like he wants to be chained in her basement, he appears to be upset at the prospect of hurting people.

My hunch is they'll remove it off-screen and
we'll hear about it later and have everyone briefly react. From what I've heard about next episode - the chip is not the focus. IF anything it'll be a footnote. Frustrating. But there it is.

[> [> [> [> [> Maybe the operation takes a while. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:56:54 02/05/03 Wed

And while everyone's going about their day, the soldier guys remove/repair the chip, and Buffy gets back to them at the end of the day.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe the operation takes a while. . . -- WickedBuffy, 16:11:56 02/05/03 Wed

heh! and fortunately, Spikes lovely blonde hair would have grown back immediately after the surgery due to his vampire restorative powers. The same powers that make it safe to operate on him in a rotting corpse-strewn underground bunker with dim lighting.

[> [> [> [> I agree -- Shiraz, 21:54:43 02/05/03 Wed

I think souled Spike would view his chip as kind of a ethical fail-safe. He'd beleive that if his untested soul should fail he'd still have its comforting electronic stopping power.

Kind of like a high-tech Jiminy Cricket.

(Odd side note: I beleive in the book Pinnoccio tried to kill his insect conscience at first; kind of like S4 Spike.)

-Shiraz

[> wow! great post s'kat -- neaux, 04:10:18 02/05/03 Wed

[> Good stuff as usual -- Tchaikovsky, 05:02:28 02/05/03 Wed

On the rating of episodes- I've found from my little Odyssey that it's best (for me) not to rate episodes during the season, but to look back at the end. With hindsight, some episodes leap out as being brilliantly foreshadow-y. The curse of serial television is how each episode 'is not an island'. It connects and interconnects. So it's like judging each act of a play individually, having not seen the subsequent ones. Is 'Act Three of Macbeth is rubbish compared to Act Two', as valid comment. Well, firstly there's the question of the play being one work of art. Secondly there's the fact that Act Three sets up Acts Four and Five, while Act Two is the end of the beginning, so gets some good bits of its own. Thirdly, without having seen the whole, it's difficult to judge the parts fairly.

And now for the most important thing I've ever learnt from posting at this forum:

Rank on the Non-Sequitur scale

Numbers are impossibly restricting. When Honorificus gives a rating of an episode such as '8 on p with a side of lilac', it really gives much more of a feeling for the episode than the clumsy 1-10 scale.

And a word on Drew Z:

Didn't somebody after 'Him' say that Greenberg had worked on 'Queer as Folk', and found a pattern that much of the gay badinage seemed to occur in his episodes?* If so, then add the Willow/Kennedy scene to this list.

TCH

* ie 'Older and Far Away'- all the Clem references.
'Entropy'- the story between Willow and Tara, and Andrew with Warren
'Smashed'- the bar scene where Amy enchants the woman with the long neck
etc etc

[> Something I need clarified-- -- HonorH, 07:16:35 02/05/03 Wed

But why oh why is Buffy going out of her way to help Spike? (I admit, when she went down into the basement to see Spike, I snarkily commented - now she's going to visit her pet vampire. Because as far as I can tell that's how she's sees him, waiting for more information on this baby.) She appears to be upset to see him in pain or overwhelmed. I was cringing,(and I would have been cringing no matter who was doing that on screen), Buffy just looks perplexed?

What does the above mean? Do you object to Buffy helping Spike? Do you think she cares too much? Not enough? I'm having trouble decoding.

[> [> Re: Something I need clarified-- -- shadowkat, 08:10:27 02/05/03 Wed

Don't object to her helping him at all. Glad she is. Would have major problems with the show if she wasn't.

Not much decoding needed. I'm just asking - what does
Buffy feel for him, if anything? She seems to care. But outside of that? Not sure. I see at least nine possibilities, all arguably valid:

1. Buffy cares for Spike, the same way one might care about a dog.

2. Buffy feels responsible for Spike on some level - again the pet pov.

3. Buffy feels a connection to him due to everything they've been through together and is somewhat attracted.
But can't get past what he is. She feels for him the same way one might feel towards a close friend who has seen you through the worst.

4. Buffy feels a connection to him and admires what he's tried to do and hates the fact that he is in pain, because she now sees him as a person and she's after all the hero.
(Buffy the saint - view.)

5. Buffy just feels responsible for him like she would any harmless creature.

6. Buffy feels responsible and guilty for what happened last year and what happened to him. If she helps him - that makes her feel better.

7. Buffy needs his assistance to help her fight the first and feels for him the same way she might have felt towards..Riley? Or maybe Forrest? And can't bear to see anyone in pain.

8. Buffy emphasizes with his pain and self-loathing and feels that he is trying to become a better man and if she can assist in some way, this makes her more than just a killer.

9. Buffy is falling for him but refuses to acknowledge it, because of what he is and she can't trust him. So she's put up barriers. But can't bear the idea of him in pain, suffering, or being killed.

And many many more. My frustration is toward the writers (not really SMG who just does what they direct and to her credit she's being asked to do an impossible job that very few professional actress' have been able to pull off - the bewildered hero whose not supposed to show her feelings b/c she doesn't really understand them herself - try conveying that to a camera? ugh. Boreanze had to do the same thing. Marsters actually has the easy job - he gets to wear his heart on his sleeve, we know he loves Buffy unconditionally and irrevocably, so he can show his emotions.) For two years now they have been writing the B/S relationship ambiguously. we know what Spike feels, but Buffy is a frigging mystery. I've read so many essays and opinions on it. Everyone has their own theory and they are all valid and often diametrically opposed. And the silly writers keep contradicting themselves in Interviews. While this ambiguity is admittedly fascinating at times and makes the show very unpredictable, it also occassionally frustrates the heck out of me, it's that frustration you were picking up on in the post.

[> [> [> I personally think -- HonorH, 22:45:50 02/05/03 Wed

that once Buffy knows, we'll know. Further thoughts:

1) She's not in love with Spike. Fact is, she hardly even knows him at this point.

2) She's attracted to Spike. I mean, c'mon!

3) She "feels" for Spike; that is, she feels compassion and pity for him because he's in pain in so many ways.

4) She feels guilty about how she treated him last year, and acknowledges she was in the wrong.

5) She believes in his potential to be good, to be more than he is. She's stated as much, and I believe her actions back it up.

6) She's still somewhat reluctant to touch him. Considering the baggage of their past relationship, including the sex, the fact that he still loves her, and also the AR, touch has become very confusing for them. So her first instinct is *not* to touch him, though

7) She's growing more comfortable with non-physical interaction with him. They can talk casually, even discuss their relationship, and they can work together.

The reason we don't have any concrete answers on what Buffy feels is because there are none. Their relationship is in motion; it hasn't settled anyplace recognizable yet. I think that once they do figure out their dynamic, it'll become quickly apparent.

[> [> [> [> Re: I personally think -- s'kat, 15:33:05 02/07/03 Fri

Don't have time to go into detail why I disagree with this one comment:

Fact is, she hardly even knows him at this point.
How odd, of all the characters in the story - I'd say in some ways she knows him the best, far better in fact than she knew Angel or Riley - unless of course you think ensouled Spike is a completely different person than soulless Spike? In which case you're right. But my gut tells me that's not what the writers are driving at, especially after seeing Soulless. No it's not that she hardly knows him...that keeps "the love" on backburner
so to speak - it's the trust, and Buffy has some justifiably major trust issues with men.

Outside of possibly Xander and Giles - Buffy knows Spike the best - she's seen everything he's capable of, both good, evil and in between. She knows to some extent what motivates him. He tells her. And I'd hazard a guess from some of the hints dropped through dialogue that they've discussed quite a few things we aren't privy too. (ie. "Actually Billy Idol copied his look from Spike?"
or "Another thing we have in common, eh?" ) No they know each other...they just don't trust each other or themselves yet.

I think all these issues are being explored this season.

[> [> [> [> [> My pov: -- HonorH, 18:18:54 02/07/03 Fri

Souled Spike *is* very different from unsouled Spike, just as Angel and Angelus are very different. Now, I'm not of the camp that believes Angel and Angelus are completely different people; that goes against all logic and evidence. But there are great differences. Same goes for Spike.

To get back to the point, I think that Buffy is still getting to know souled Spike. She knows a great deal about him and where he comes from, but she's still feeling out who he's become, and who he's becoming. Spike's also beginning to understand that he doesn't have Buffy quite as figured out as he thought he did last year. I think that for once, they're really getting to know each other, leaving their preconceptions behind, and from that, friendship, trust, and perhaps even love can follow.

You're right about Buffy's trust issues, of course. On that, I will never disagree.

[> [> [> [> [> [> The chip -- Malandanza, 20:16:37 02/07/03 Fri

I think the chip is going to further strain the new Buffy/Spike relationship.

If Spike is asked what his choice is, I'm pretty certain he'd want the chip fixed -- he wants to be chained up when Buffy isn't there to watch him, and the chip is just another set of chains. However, there is a slight chance he'll be concerned with what happens when the new chips burns out? Will Riley still be in a position of authority in the Initiative? If he is, will Buffy still be around to use her influence to help Spike again? Since Spike doesn't have a history of looking too far into the future, I think these concerns will be outweighed by his current self-loathing.

However, I don't think he'll be asked.

Buffy has become more like a watcher this season. She's willing to make utilitarian choices -- and the greatest good, the safest approach, would be to keep Spike chipped. He's been an unwitting dupe of the First and Buffy knows first hand that there are ways of removing a vampire's soul. If he's alive, he ought to be chipped. Simple, logical.

So Buffy gives the order to have the chip repaired -- it is, after all, what Spike would have wanted if he had been asked. So what's the problem? Trust. It will be glaringly obvious to Spike that Buffy doesn't trust him, so even though the rechipping is something he would have insisted upon, Buffy making the decision for him will be a reminder that there is gulf between them (of his own making) that can never be closed.

[> Questions and Points ( Minor Spoilers Season 7 and Speculation) -- Deb, 07:44:06 02/05/03 Wed

Several things have come and gone in my head the past few weeks, and in particular after viewing Buffy last night:

1. Robeson -- We know the First speaks through images of the dead. When the SIT was killed in Germany, who spoke through her? After Robeson was killed by the Bringers, who spoke through him to Giles? Is there another "entity" present, or is it the First?

2. Amy -- Amy was a rat living in a cage with Willow for, what, 3 years. 7.1 and 7.2 showed us a rat in the school basement with Spike. It was in the foreground in all cases. At the time I mentioned that rats (and other rodents) are used by Evil as eyes and ears. The positioning of the rat in the foreground tells us that the rat is the main focus on the screen. Anyway, back to Amy -- What if she has been acting with the First the entire time she was a rat as its eyes and ears? It would have been spying on the the (gag) SG for all this time and would know a great deal of them.

3. Amy said she put an hex on Willow where Willow, basically, creates her own hell as punishment. I know this sounds twisted, but what if a similar type of hex or spell had been put on Spike when he received his soul? Angel was cursed to remember everyone he ever hurt/killed/whatever. What is Spike's possession by the First is of his own making due to a hex?

4. Strange thoughts after viewing three times. What if it is William who is in the asylum and has been since 1880?
"Spike" could be a Victorian era shrink who puts William, in our percpective and William's also I'm sure, through sadistic tortures? We're talking Buffyverse, so this would not necessarily negate the Buffyness reality.. Perhaps William was a Victorian era Watcher and "the girl" he "hurt" was his SIT/Slayer? So he does a bit o' time traveling and goes back and "fixes it." This "idea" was fed by a dream I had in which the last thing I heard was, "But while filming Buffy, the doctor dies." I wonder what came before the "but..." Plus, I just read a story in "Slayers, Vol. II" about a watcher/slayer in London.

5. Ok, this next is after a class discussion in my Gender class. I think it has been established that feeding is a metaphor for sex. We know vampires can have sex "human style" but if feeding is sex, then vamping is procreation, or turning or a human into a vapire. To procreate, humans, traditionally, have required a male and female to create a Third person. A vampire procreates by changing a human into a vampire. No mother nor father; There is just a sire, or parent/lover. Could also be metaphor for: evolution and homophobia if one really thinks about it. Also argument for many genders beyond masculine, feminine and androgyneous. Biological: male, female, hermaphroditic, XYY .............Also, what gender differences are there between male and female vampires? None.

I'm thinking way too much here, but I'm really plunging deeply this semester.

[> Re: Still all about pov and power and choices (Spoilers 4.13? Tonight's Btvs) -- dream, 11:15:37 02/05/03 Wed

"how dare she get it easy, look how hard I worked, slaved, etc.." remind you of anyone?

It reminded me of someone else - Faith. I don't know that this comparison holds up, but when I heard that speech, all I could think of was Faith:

***You know, I come to Sunnydale. I'm the Slayer. I
do my job kicking ass better than anyone. What do I hear about
everywhere I go? Buffy. So I slay, I behave, I do the good little
girl routine. And who's everybody thank? Buffy.***

I haven't really thought this through, but could they be trying to set Amy up as a sort of darkside Willow equivalent - what she could have been under other circumstances? The draw of power, willingness to use others? I don't know, just a thought.

[> [> about that faith quote -- anom, 23:26:38 02/05/03 Wed

"***You know, I come to Sunnydale. I'm the Slayer. I
do my job kicking ass better than anyone. What do I hear about everywhere I go? Buffy. So I slay, I behave, I do the good little girl routine. And who's everybody thank? Buffy.***"

...followed by this:

"Faith: Everybody always asks, why can't you be more like Buffy? But did anyone ever ask if you could be more like me?
Angel: I know I didn't.
Faith: You get the Watcher. You get the mom. You get the little Scooby gang. What do I get? Jack squat. This is supposed to be my town!"

Isn't all this just the reverse of what happened when Faith 1st showed up? Even Buffy's mother was asking why Buffy couldn't be more like Faith! Faith was getting all the attention, & Buffy was the one feeling left out. But Faith blew it all by herself when she could've had everything she was talking about. Well, not literally the mom.

[> [> [> Re: about that faith quote -- Etrangere, 16:41:48 02/06/03 Thu

"Isn't all this just the reverse of what happened when Faith 1st showed up? Even Buffy's mother was asking why Buffy couldn't be more like Faith! Faith was getting all the attention, & Buffy was the one feeling left out. But Faith blew it all by herself when she could've had everything she was talking about. Well, not literally the mom."

In Buffy's PoV, yes, of course she was feelinh left out and everyone expected her to be like Faith. Does mean that Faith didn't feel the reverse.
Ever had a sister, anom ?

as skt would say, it's all about subjective realities :)

[> You mean someone else remembers VR5? -- verdantheart, 06:01:36 02/06/03 Thu

(BTW, half the time I come in as vh, so you're not the only one uses a short name)

I remember when I first tuned in, thinking, oh that's the fellow on VR5. I was rather sorry that that program was so short-lived. They never really let it hit its stride. (In fact, it was just starting to get interesting when they pulled the plug.)

Meanwhile, thanks for your comments, s'kat, most thought-provoking as always.

[> [> i don't--someone remind me? -- anom, 09:57:42 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> uh oh my bad :< -- WickedBuffy, 11:24:52 02/06/03 Thu

I thought I was just typing a tiny little note in reply to the VR5 question and accidentally used the topic field instead of the reply field. So it's up there at the top of the page for seemingly NO reason at all. I'm sorry. ack

[> [> Thanks vh and to anom on Vr5 -- s'kat, 12:24:17 02/06/03 Thu

Was sorry Vr5 was short-lived as well, although could see why, it was very convoluted - which was why I loved it, the more convoluted the better ;-)

But I agree just as it got interesting, it was discontinued, after less then 13 episodes. One of the many cancelled sci-fi's I've witnessed.

To anom and others: Vr5 was a science fiction series about a computer genius who could go inside the world of computers with her mind. But her true gift was the ability to go the 5th level of the virtual matrix. Competing governement interests were after her. It was sort of The Net meets TechWorld mets X-Files meets La Femme Nikita.
Very convoluted story. Was on Fox between 1995-1996 I believe and starred Lori Singer, Michael Eastman and ASH.
I watched mainly for ASH who played a shady mentor.

[> Nice post. A note about chip/Joyce parallel. -- yez, 15:41:56 02/06/03 Thu

When Buffy was being told about Spike's malfunctioning chip and her choice, I flashed to Joyce. This is the second time that Buffy has to deal with medical types telling her that something is going wrong in a loved one's head and surgery is needed. Interesting. Before work turned my brain to jello today, I had more to say on this, but it's all gone now. So, there for your consideration. (Sorry if someone already raised this -- didn't see it.)

Oh, and I like Kennedy, too, though I feel like I'm the only one thinking that she's absolutely gorgeous enough to be a Mary Sue (though I don't think she is).

yez

[> [> Re: Nice post. A note about chip/Joyce parallel. -- s'kat, 09:41:14 02/07/03 Fri

Interesting - that didn't occur to me, but maybe the chip coming out of Spike's head and it being Buffy's decision, does to a degree metanarrate on three main episodes on this in Season 5: Joyce's brain tumors, Riley's chip in his heart, and Spike's attempts to remove the chip in his brain.

And - once again - as she had to with both Joyce and Riley in Season 5, Buffy has to deal with the prospect that the chip is killing Spike. The metanarration on Riley - is seen through the fact Buffy is more concerned than Spike at first. Unlike the Riley story line - Spike is willing to into the Initiative to get help, it's even his idea to go back to that place - which parallels the Willow/Kennedy story in that Willow wants to handle it alone and Kennedy insists in helping - Spike asks Buffy if she's sure she wants to come with him and go down there, she says she has nothing better to do - an echo of Kennedy. In this way Spike is actually closer to Joyce - trying not to make too big a deal out of it, because of Buffy, yet at the same time concerned enough to handle it.

[> [> [> ? on the Buffy/Kennedy echoes -- yez, 10:58:14 02/07/03 Fri

Good point about the tag-along similarities.

I was wondering what you thought about the other strong echoes/parallels between Kennedy and Buffy in this ep. I posted on this more extensively on a now-archived thread -- the slightly abridged version:

Another posted pointed out that as Willow/Warren re-enacts the shooting scene, Kennedy is in *Buffy's* place, not Tara's. And I find the Buffy/Kennedy thing interesting, because it seemed to me that if Willow felt she had killed or was killing
Tara and so *was* Warren -- and then was proceding to re-enact Warren's murder of Tara -- you'd expect Willow to actually try to kill a symbol of *Tara*. When the scene first started, I assumed that Kennedy was that symbol, but it didn't turn out that way.

Throughout the ep., Kennedy is in Buffy's role. She sleeps in Buffy's old bed, she skips out on slayer duties like
Buffy occassionally tried to do early on, she sees it as her job to stop Amy, she's standing in Buffy's place during
the shooting re-enactment, and then she "saves the day" (usually Buffy's role). If Kennedy is representative of
Buffy, not Tara, then she's the plan-foiler and mysogynist's humiliator, right, since that's basically what Buffy
was to Warren?

OK, so at The Bronze, Willow talks about there being only woman, not women, and they talk about her lack of
being "out there" in the big, gay world. So is it possible that part of the desire to kill Kennedy also comes from
subconscious homophobic and/or mysogynistic hatred within herself? Is it possible that some of the "Gay now!"
talk was bravado, and that Willow was still holding onto the idea that it wasn't women -- it was just a woman?
If we look at what Willow says to Kennedy as Warren, we can also talk about perhaps Willow feeling
uncomfortable with her own sexuality. Kennedy is more outwardly sexy, and maybe Willow sees this as a bad
thing? Or maybe feeling attracted to Kennedy makes Willow feel out of control and maybe inadequate; we can
speculate that that was also one of Warren's issues, pretty certainly.

Also, re: Kennedy as Buffy, maybe there's also some subconscious rage that Willow still feels toward Buffy -- the
same rage she felt when she was Evil!Willow and they fought? And/or more importantly maybe some degree of
rage that Tara's death resulted from a stray bullet meant for Buffy. Buffy asks earlier if Willow remembered a
time when things were normal ("Boring"? "Un-exciting"? I can't remember the exact word), and Willow answers
no; things haven't been that way since Buffy, the slayer, came on the scene. And "because" of Buffy, Willow can't
have a normal life.

Anyway, it could just be that I'm overthinking all this, or have thunk myself into a corner, to so speak, but was wondering what you made of all this. Thanks.

yez

[> birth/rebirth -- WickedBuffy, 18:44:06 02/06/03 Thu

Your post set off something else for me about where the "spell" was broken. Joss talks about things going full-circle. The same spot that Willow lost a large part of herself, and in some ways died with Tara (and stopped by guilt) - became the very spot she started over again, renewed and moving on dealing with it to hopefully start up living fully again.

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