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Give 'em the old razzle-dazzle (spoilers for Buffy S7 and Angel S4) -- cjl, 10:43:18 02/05/03 Wed

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle Dazzle 'em
Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it
And the reaction will be passionate
Give 'em the old hocus pocus
Bead and feather 'em
How can they see with sequins in their eyes?

What if your hinges all are rusting?
What if, in fact, you're just disgusting?
Razzle dazzle 'em
And they'll never catch wise!
__________________________________________________

I just saw "Chicago"--the movie, that is. (Could you tell?)

But I wanted to write about the continuing debate on the board about the relative strengths of ANGEL and BUFFY and the gripe from a subsection of BUFFY fans that BtVS just ain't got the stuff this year. These fans, call them the Ennuists (TM), feel that Buffy is slowing down as it's reaching the end, as if the ME staff were in the grip of some kind of mass depression, and the scripts and the direction are following suit.

Another subsection, the active Angel boosters--let's call them the Adrenaline Junkies (TM)--are jazzed. Angel seems to be firing on all cylinders, with a plot barreling along at breakneck pace, and characters bouncing off each other like water molecules at high boil. To these fans, Buffy seems to be moving in slow motion.

Now before anybody leaps down my throat here, I want to go on record saying I love both series, and I simply will not be moved from my futon for that one hour on either night. My phone is disconnected, and if I could disconnect my doorbell, I'd do that too. (So don't even try it, people.) Rather than play one series off another, I'm interested in making the comparisons, seeing how themes from one are reflected in the other.

Here's my point: this method of examination usually presumes that Joss and his staffers have plotted the arcs of both series down to the last moment of the last episode. So, if BUFFY and ANGEL are the product of the same creative minds, one has to conclude that the differences in pacing are DELIBERATE.
__________________________________________________

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle dazzle 'em
Give 'em a show that's so splendiferous
Row after row will crow vociferous

Give 'em the old flim flam flummox
Fool and fracture 'em
How can they hear the truth above the roar?
Throw 'em a fake and a finagle
They'll never know you're just a bagel
Razzle dazzle 'em
And they'll beg you for more!
__________________________________________________

ANGEL, right now, does seem to be the more conventionally thrilling fantasy/adventure series. Joss and Jeff Bell have practically crammed every square inch of the screen with mind-boggling phenomena: you've got the Beast tromping all over L.A. with his molten lava body and big, badass cloven hooves, stomping on lawyers and the jaded rich; you had the Rain of Fire scorching those poor downtrodden Angelenos, and now the city is cursed with Eternal Darkness; electro-girl has sort of joined the gang, with her long black gloves and sexy midriff bearing ensembles; meanwhile, Connor has slept with Cordy, Wes and Gunn are glaring at each across the room when they can actually stand to be in the same room, Lilah is wandering around the sewer system, and Lorne might have a drinking problem. Did I leave anything out? Oh yes, and now Angelus is back, after a de-souling fantasy sequence that even Steven Spielberg might consider "over the top."

Most of this is vastly entertaining, but I find it all secondary to what I think is fascinating about this season: we're getting the big, all-access guided tour of Angel's head. How does he view his mission, his comrades-in-arms, his place in the world? How much does or doesn't he accept the responsibility for the crimes of Angelus?

Does he even acknowledge that Angelus is part of himself?

In many ways, what we're seeing on Angel this season, all the hurly-burly and oversized plotlines, is how Angel relates to the world. He's the Champion, he's in constant motion putting out fires--but he doesn't see that the major threat lies close to his own unbeating heart...
__________________________________________________

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle dazzle 'em
Back since the days of old Methuselah
Everyone loves the big bambooz-a-ler

Give 'em the old three ring circus
Stun and stagger 'em
When you're in trouble, go into your dance

Though you are stiffer than a girder
They let you get away with murder
Razzle dazzle 'em
And you've got a romance
___________________________________________________

Buffy, on the other hand, seems to be in a more meditative mode. With the exception of the First-heavy plot episodes of Sleeper and NLM and the occasion MotW, the action has been narrowly focused on the internal struggles of the Scoobs themselves, with the presence of the First lingering around the edges like a bad storm front. Spike's unhinged psyche was most of the problem in "Beneath You"; Willow's guilt took up STSP and last night's episode; Anya's demonhood was the hook of "Selfless"; we had Buffy on the 'couch' in CWDP--I could go on and on here.

There isn't much of an emphasis on action set-pieces and mind-blowing visuals. The setting seems almost claustrophobic, as if Joss and Marti want us to turn our expectations away from the usual Scooby derring-do, quiet down a little, and pay attention to our characters as they try to heal themselves after the train wreck that was S6. The one time we DO get a hero v. villain battle, Buffy vs. the Ubervamp in Showtime, it's deliberately stagey--as if ME was pointing out the artificiality of this type of confrontation. "Look people," ME seems to be telling us, "this isn't where the battle is won and lost. The battle against Evil, real Evil, is won and lost in the hearts and minds of our heroes."

This is where BUFFY meets up with ANGEL. Two methods, the same goal. If I'm right, Joss is trying to do something with Buffy S7 that's nearly impossible: he's trying to craft a myth that doesn't follow the usual patterns of what we in the West consider "myth." He's taking the usual clang of swords and rescue of damsels out of the mix and putting the emphasis on the psychic journey of our heroine. (In fact, I think the parody of the Campbell-ian archetype in "Long Day's Journey..." was a clear announcement of that intention.)

The inevitable question: does it work? Is it viable entertainment? Sure it works. Adrenaline Junkies simply have to adjust expectations and Ennuists need to renew their faith in the Mad God. But, to be fair, Joss and ME also must realize they've got no margin for error. When you consciously remove the razzle-dazzle from your series, you run the risk of boring the audience silly if you stumble even slightly in the execution--and there have been a few stumbles over the past three episodes.

I rather liked The Killer In Me, and some of the upcoming Buffy episodes up look positively juicy. I have no doubt Joss knows where he wants to go. Whether we want to take the journey with him is entirely our choice...

___________________________________________________

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle dazzle 'em
Give 'em an act that's unassailable
They'll wait a year 'till you're available!

Give 'em the old double whammy
Daze and dizzy 'em
Show 'em the first rate sorcerer you are
Long as you keep 'em way off balance
How can they spot you got no talents?
Razzle dazzle 'em
(Razzle dazzle 'em)
(Razzle dazzle 'em)
And they'll make you a star!

(Music and lyrics: Kander and Ebb)

[> OT: I admit it, I'm a "Chicago" junkie... -- Rob, 10:53:54 02/05/03 Wed

I saw the play on Broadway twice and the movie three times already.

And the second I saw your subject line, the song started playing on non-stop rotation in my head. And now it's really playing...on my CD player. ;o)

As far as AtS and BtVS, I totally agree with you. I'm getting very sick of "Buffy" being called not-exciting this season in comparison with AtS, because if both shows were doing the same thing, they'd be the same show. This year, BtVS has been more introspective, AtS more the-opposite-of-introspective (what's the word? extrospective?) I prefer BtVS, but I still adore AtS, and along with s'kat's "Spike doesn't negate Angel" quote on the top of the board, I think we should add:

"BtVS does not negate AtS. AtS does not negate BtVS."

Rob

Rob

[> [> Rob, this reminds me of those critics who complained that... -- OnM, 12:21:29 02/05/03 Wed

... Firefly wasn't like Buffy.

Well, yeah. Ironically, once you watched it for an extended period, and began to understand what was really going on, you realized that in many ways it was just like Buffy.

The direction taken by the two shows was very different, but the same 'eternal' themes were right there underneath all along.

[> [> [> Exactly! -- Rob, 12:29:15 02/05/03 Wed

And Firefly, which was originally accused of not having enough depth, actually did reveal itself to have it in spades as the episodes progressed. I think the symbols and metaphors were there just as much as "Buffy," but weren't so obviously meant to be symbols and metaphors.

Rob

[> [> [> [> I didn't see Firefly's depth at first, but I watched and... -- Ixchel, 14:07:19 02/05/03 Wed

Was rewarded with a thoughtful, meaningful (and yet, entertaining) show and characters I could become very attached to, whose journey had epic potential. Of course, just as I realized this it was canceled. :(

I believe Firefly is very much like BtVS, in the way AtS and Farscape (that Buffy is mentioned twice in this show makes me think that the creators admire and follow JW's work) are. That I love BtVS, AtS and Farscape, and I was growing to love Firefly isn't a coincidence or because they are all fantasy/sci-fi (IMHO). But rather because they are shows with beautiful surfaces covering sublime and fascinating depths.

Ixchel

[> [> Re: OT: I admit it, I'm a "Chicago" junkie... -- lunasea, 14:33:09 02/05/03 Wed

I think it is interesting that AtS and BtVS have changed places in regards to intro-extro spection. They are both coming full circle and will unite again. Amends took them apart and it will bring them back together.

Watching the give-and-take of BtVS and AtS this season would be easier if they were paced together. It gets frustrating lining up the shows to see how they should be viewed.

The shows are still being written together. They can stand alone, but taken together, both are enhanced.

[> Re: Give 'em the old razzle-dazzle (spoilers for Buffy S7 and Angel S4) -- lunasea, 14:29:49 02/05/03 Wed

Both shows are being stripped down. We lost both the Watcher's Council and WR&H. This time our heros really have few assets and they are facing their greatest foes.

The Beast will be dispatched with soon. He was like Ubbie, a nice entertaining red herring, symbolic of what is going on inside our heros (Ubbie is a Neanderthal vamp and this is Buffy: Year One, The Beast is how Angel views Angelus)

I don't mind giving up the Razzle Dazzle, as long as I care about the characters. I am willing to put up with certain episodes, because I know they are going somewhere.

I just want to care again. I want more to look forward to than the finale. I want to scream "Buffy!!!" when I wake up on Tuesdays again. I want to care about what happens to Willow and even ass-face. I don't right now.

[> Re: Give 'em the old razzle-dazzle (spoilers for Buffy S7 and Angel S4) -- Rahael, 14:54:16 02/05/03 Wed

Great post!

Since I'm squarely in both camps you describe, quite publically, I should mention that I really enjoyed Potential. Didn't find anyone annoying. Liked em all. Think Andrew is a scream. And for the sake of balance, I just loved Apocalypse Nowish.

Mainly, I think I've read too many posts on Buffy. Started seeing too much of the Buffy that everyone else saw, not enough of the Buffy I saw, and fell in love with. Too many exhausting, doubt filling arguments about redemption and racism, and romance. I've kind of lost the ability to see the Buffy that resonates with me.

I'm relieved that there might be closure soon, just so's I can revisit all the seasons by MYSELF. For Myself. Not to feel guilty anymore because others don't approve of my reading. Because my reading of it sustained me and gave me strength and was a joy.

I don't know. Maybe it's instructive that the last season I truly loved, was the last season I watched all by myself with absolutely no discussion. God help me if I had watched the Gift while I was online.

Rahael, A Wes/Lilah Shipper

[> [> Re: Give 'em the old razzle-dazzle (spoilers for Buffy S7 and Angel S4) -- s'kat, 15:09:03 02/05/03 Wed

Maybe it's instructive that the last season I truly loved, was the last season I watched all by myself with absolutely no discussion. God help me if I had watched the Gift while I was online.

Hmmm is this true of me as well I wonder? I didn't go online until well after Wrecked. And wasn't on the boards
until well maybe Feb 2002. Would I have enjoyed the seasons more - if I didn't analyze them to death with 100 other people? Or has the analysis added more depth to the episodes? Don't know.

I know I'm solidly in both camps right now. I love both shows for incredibly different reasons and am taping both.
I've decided trying to compare them in a negative manner - hurts my appreciation of one over the other. And when I read posts bashing one over the other - I find myself defending the under-dog like a violent tiger or motherhen wanting to peck the person who dared bash my favorite characters, show, etc...I've had to stop reading a couple of posters due to fears of this Ms. Hyde persona surfacing in myself.

At any rate...I agree with cjl above - both shows are interesting this year and doing something very ambitious, whether or not they can pull it off and in unision and on two competing networks and on network television - has me riveted to my seat. Will I occassionally be disappointed - probably, will I be entertained? No doubt about it. Ats and Btvs are still my two favorite shows and the only ones I bother posting on the internet about. When they go, I will dearly miss them.

Sk ( also a Wes/Lilah shipper - which isn't necessarily a good thing, my ships tend to sink very fast, hence the reason I try really really hard not to invest much in them. ex: W/X, Joyce/Giles, Jenny/Giles...sigh.)

[> [> [> They are distinctly different experiences for me -- Rahael, 15:41:08 02/05/03 Wed

I really like posting here. I really love a lot of the posts here. Provocative and entertaining and thoughtful.

But I find that I can't enjoy the show while I am doing this. I love it when I finally get the box sets/dve and sit and watch them all by myself in a weekend or so.

However, while I post and discuss, the actual show somehow gets lost. Perhaps this affects me because I don't actually get to see the show while I have a chance to discuss the latest eps, unlike most of you.

Wildfeeds pall. I don't bother reading them anymore. I just read posts and respond to them. I often find that I like more of a season than the board in general. But this is not true during most of the year.

From this perspective, I suppose the more dramatic plotpoints of a show will grab you. If a show is meditative, and all you have is other people's posts to go by, you find your interest in the actual show decreasing.

[> [> [> [> Re: They are distinctly different experiences for me -- Rufus, 21:12:03 02/05/03 Wed

However, while I post and discuss, the actual show somehow gets lost. Perhaps this affects me because I don't actually get to see the show while I have a chance to discuss the latest eps, unlike most of you.

No amount of posts on this or any board, Wildfeed, or spoiler can replace the experience of watching the shows themselves. Getting a season in a boxed set is the best way to enjoy.....commentaries, no commercials, and you get the whole story without the two long breaks.

[> [> [> My experience was a little different -- Doug (also a Wes/Lilah shipper), 19:11:28 02/05/03 Wed

I started lurking around Buffy sites during season 6, trying to make sense of a season that I was dissapointed with. Actually Shadowkat, your essays were one of the things that kept me watching to the end of the season. Reading the morein-depth analysis helped me enjoy it a little more, though I still refuse to watch it again.

So I don't think that analysing an episode ruins the experience. Certainly looking closer at episodes tends to magnify small details; tiny flaws in masterpieces and small grains of goodness amidst the bad.

Just my humble opinion.

[> [> I agree,Rahael -- Trilby, 10:38:39 02/06/03 Thu

I'm still very new to the board thing, but I totally agree with you. At first, I was very intrigued to learn other people's thoughts on the show, but now I really do think it drains my personal enjoyment of viewing - although I have seen some very eloquent and insightful postings, which is the reason I started reading, there is at least an equal number from posters who seem to take delight in nit-picking; pointing out and magnifying flaws, real or imagined. I can't help but wonder why these people continue to watch the show. I realise that there are people who derive pleasure from this- I'm not certain why, but I think it would be fascinating to know! Truly!- but I'm really not one of them. I LIKE Buffy and Angel, and I WANT to enjoy them. Certainly, there is occasional disappointment, but since I don't see the writers as demi-gods, but fallible humans who work to an incredibly hectic schedule, I remain impressed overall. Reading bashing comments (especially pitting shows or characters against one another) truly hampers my pleasure. I'm still lurking on this board for the good stuff, but I'm not sure how long it will be good for me.

[> [> [> Re: I agree,Rahael -- Rahael, 10:58:57 02/06/03 Thu

I think the answer is to watch first, read later and stick to your unashamed enjoyment of the show!!

Also, criticism of the show makes me cudgel my brains to come with better reasons for my disagreement than "I don't agree, so there!" which is my initial response.May not convince the disappointed, but makes me feel more rational!

It's better and less exhausting if everything remains goodhumoured of course. I much prefer disagreeing with the people I get on with.

Hope you continue here, and that our occasional bouts of disappointment don't get to you. If all else fails, just confine yourself to Rob's posts! hehe.

[> Re: Give 'em the old razzle-dazzle (spoilers for Buffy S7 and Angel S4) -- leslie, 15:06:41 02/05/03 Wed

"The setting seems almost claustrophobic, as if Joss and Marti want us to turn our expectations away from the usual Scooby derring-do, quiet down a little, and pay attention to our characters as they try to heal themselves after the train wreck that was S6."

This brings up something that has been striking me for a while and I haven't had a chance to express. This season seems literally darker than all other seasons combined. Even though there are scenes that happen during the day time, it always feels like a moonless night, somehow. There never seems to be any sunlight penetrating Camp Summers (maybe because the windows are all boarded up half the time), there are far more different underground scenes than ever before (i.e., there are a greater number of places underground where things happen, as opposed to, say S4, when there was a lot of underground, but it was all in the Initiative, or S6, where there was a lot of underground, but it was all Spike's crypt). But, I don't know, even the outdoor night scenes seem darker, like the moon and stars are blocked out. Is this an unstated echo of what's happening in LA on Angel?

[> [> Classic Metaphor: The House is the Mirror to the Soul -- cjl, 15:18:32 02/05/03 Wed

Some thoughts:

1. In BotN, the windows of the Summers house are boarded up; Buffy is metaphorically blind, and she's haunted by Joyce who tells her to wake up, to see things in a new light.

2. Xander complains about being trapped in an eternal "mummy hand" loop, condemned to fix the windows for all eternity. Xander has always been the heart of the group, cutting to the emotional truth of the matter when everybody else is "blind." Xander fixes the windows to the mind, allowing the rest of the group to "see."

3. The quiet of the Summers home and the darkness of the scenes in BtVS could be interpreted as the quiet of the womb, or thoughts hidden from the daylight of the mind. We may be in the depths of Buffy's subconscious this year, and who knows what is incubating there, waiting to be born?

[> For the Chicago fans -- KdS, 05:53:46 02/06/03 Thu

Nowhere near as good at this sort of thing as cjl, but I immediately thought of this when I saw the Cellblock Tango in the cinema.

The Rationalisation Tango

Lorne as Emcee Ladies and gentlemen, the Hyperion presents the forgiven homicides of the Buffyverse in The Rationalisation Tango

Buffy
Clang

Angel
Click

Faith
Leap

Willow
Crackle

Giles
Kenosis

Fred/Gunn/Wes
Seidel!

Buffy
Clang

Angel
Click

Faith
Leap

Willow
Crackle

Giles
Kenosis

Fred/Gunn/Wes
Seidel!

Buffy
Clang

Angel
Click

Faith
Leap

Willow
Crackle

Giles
Kenosis

Fred/Gunn/Wes
Seidel!

All
They had it coming
They had it coming
They only had themselves to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it

Buffy
I betcha you would have done the same!

Buffy
Clang

Angel
Click

Faith
Leap

Willow
Crackle

Giles
Kenosis

Fred/Gunn/Wes
Seidel!

Buffy (spoken)
So I'd known this guy for years, thought he was... nice, you know? Then it turns out he's dying and he wants to hand over a bunch of pathetic Goths to a certain vampire of my acquaintance. Wants some part of him to survive, even if that part's gonna be an evil soulless thing. So I'm there in the cellar, I've knocked him out after he attacked me first, and maybe, just maybe, I've got a chance to see that he gets out alive. But then I think "Hey, he wanted this so much? Why should I put my ass on the line to save him?" [beat] So I walked out and locked the door.

All
He had it coming
He had it coming
He only had himself to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha you would
Have done the same!

He had it coming
He had it coming
He only had himself to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha you would
Have done the same!

All
He had it coming
He had it coming
He only had himself to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha you would
Have done the same!

Angel (spoken)
Look, the things they'd done to me, I wasn't thinking straight. They brought my own sire back to life, let me try to redeem her knowing she was going to die, then had her sired again. All just to fuck with my head. She and Dru were all game faced, ready to tuck into avocat au cave de vin, and the hypocritical bastard told me people are going to die. Maybe, just maybe, I had a chance to see that they got out alive. But then I thought "Hey, they dealt the play. Why do they deserve a Champion?" [beat] So I walked out and locked the door.

All
They had it coming
They had it coming
They only had themselves
To blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha you would
Have done the same
They had it coming
They had it coming
They only had themselves to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha you would
Have done the same!

Hah! They had it coming
They had it coming
They took a flower
In its prime
And then they cramped it
And they re-vamped it
It was a murder
But not a crime!

Faith/Willow/Gunn/Fred/Wes
Clang, click, leap, crackle
Kenosis, Seidel

Faith (spoken)
I was doing my job, really trying to do the right thing! Evil vamps leaping out on me from left and right, me and B staking them before they can put the fang on us, and suddenly this idiot in a suit comes walking up to me to confess whatever! How was I to know he was human? Couldn't he have said something, called out? OK, blame me for all that other stuff, but it was his fault I got the taste for it!

All
Clang, click
Leap, crackle,
Kenosis, Seidel
Clang, click
Leap, crackle,
Kenosis, Seidel
Clang, click
Leap, crackle,
Kenosis, Seidel

All
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha you would have done the same!

Willow (spoken)
[Incomprehensible sobbing and wailing. Others look on with a certain degree of boredom and contempt. We hear a few recognisable words interspersed]. Killed... drugs.. not me... Rack... loved her... vengeance... so much pain... stop the pain...

Faith (spoken)
Yeah, but even I never skinned anyone alive.

Willow
HE DESERVED IT, THE BASTARD!

Giles (spoken)
Look, Buffy had just dealt with the goddess, but I had to deal with the human being. If I'd left him alive, Glory would have been back sooner or later and then where would we all have been? Buffy couldn't do it, if she'd had got the... um... taste for killing humans who knows where it would have stopped. Anyway... ah... we all have our inner demons and most of us actually make an effort to keep them under control. He obviously couldn't hack it.

All
He had it coming
He had it coming
He only had
Himself to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen them

Giles (spoken)
Flicking back and forth,
Ending the world

All
I betcha
You would
Have done
The same!

He had
It coming
He had it coming...

Giles
[Fiddles with glasses] Well, I made my choice and I think I'd do the same again.

He had it coming
He had it coming
He had it coming all along
Of course I did it
But since I did it
How could you tell me that I was wrong?

Buffy
He had it coming

All
They had it coming

Buffy
He had it coming

All
They had it coming

Buffy
They had it coming

Angel
They took a flower

Buffy
All along

Angel
In its prime

Buffy
The blond guy did it

Angel
And then they cramped it

Buffy
But if I'd done it

Angel
And they re-vamped it

Buffy
How could you tell me

Angel
It was a murder

Buffy
That I was wrong?

Angel
But not a crime!

Fred (spoken)
I trusted the man. He was like... my Gandalf, he taught me everything I knew, I thought he respected me! Then I found out he'd put me into that terrible place and...

Wes (spoken)
Well, I had to help the poor girl when she came to me. I always do seem to end up helping them if they come to me. I don't know, maybe I thought it was appropriate. Maybe they needed to find out that you can't always keep your hands clean. And of course if I showed her that I trusted her to make her own choices instead of putting her on a pedestal like... [Gunn bristles and moves ominously toward Wes]

Fred (spoken)
[Steps between them]. It wouldn't have been murder! Not really! I mean I came back alright, well maybe not technically alright but I came back! And if he was so much cleverer than I was then he could have got back much quicker!

Gunn (spoken)
Well I couldn't let my little girl kill a guy, could I! That would have been wrong. [beat] So I did it myself. [Wes in shock, torn somewhere between gloating and jealousy].

Gunn/Wes/Fred
He had it coming
He had it coming
He only had
Himself to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha
You would
Have done
The same!

All
The dirty bum, bum, bum, bum, bum
The dirty bum, bum, bum, bum, bum

Buffy,Faith, Willow,Fred
They had it comin'

Angel,Giles, Gunn, Wes
They had it comin'

Buffy,Faith, Willow,Fred
They had it comin'

Angel,Giles, Gunn, Wes
They had it comin'

Buffy,Faith, Willow,Fred
They had it comin'

Angel,Giles, Gunn, Wes
They had it comin'

Buffy,Faith, Willow,Fred
All along

Angel,Giles, Gunn, Wes
All along
'Cause if they used us
'Cause if they used us And they abused us
And they abused us

Buffy,Faith, Willow,Fred
How could you tell us

Angel,Giles, Gunn, Wes
How could you tell us That we were wrong?
That we were wrong?

All
He had it coming
He had it coming
He only had
Himself
To blame.
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I betcha
You would
Have done
The same!

Buffy (spoken)
Me risk my life for him?

Angel (spoken)
Me risk my life for them?

Faith (spoken)
If he'd just said something!

Willow (spoken)
He deserved it

Giles (spoken)
It was him or the world.

Fred (spoken)
I mean I heard authorship disputes could get nasty, but...

All
I betcha you would have done the same!

[> [> KdS, this enhanced my enjoyment of both Buffy and "Chicago" -- cjl, 07:51:50 02/06/03 Thu

Who says you're not as good as I am with these things?

Just imagined Buffy, Faith, and Willow in those Fosse-style lingerie dancer's outfits. Mmmmm....

(Uh oh. Just imagined Giles and Gunn in those same outfits. Well, there goes lunch...)

[> [> [> I saw the London production that inspired the film... -- KdS, 08:40:02 02/06/03 Thu

...with Ute Lemper as Velma (mmmmmmmmm)

And they did have the guys dressed in sheer-and-scanty as well. Fortunately they were all good-looking enough to carry it off.

[> [> [> [> OMG! Ute Lemper as Velma?! -- cjl, 09:02:40 02/06/03 Thu

I checked out Ute Lemper live(!) when she was doing her "Punishing Kiss" tour a few years back, covering songs from modern rock gods like Elvis Costello, Tom Waits, and Stephen Merritt. She was undermiked compared with the rhythm section, and some of the rock and roll numbers just fell flat. But when she told the drummer to just shut the f*** up and leave the stage, and then went into some of her Kurt Weill material, she was majestic, awesome.

Ute Lemper in "Chicago." Severe case of Fosse envy here...

[> [> [> [> I had the privelege of seeing the best Velma EVER... -- Rob, 09:28:22 02/06/03 Thu

...Bebe Neuwirth. She kicked major ass. Who knew that the woman who played Lilith on "Cheers" could be such a sexpot?!?

Oooh oooh, and Joel Grey played Amos. That was an evening of theatre I'll never forget.

Rob

[> [> Fantastic! Bravo! Bravo! Encore! Encore! -- Rob, 07:55:28 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> Yay! -- ponygirl, waving her jazz hands, 08:24:04 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> LOL. This is great! -- Rahael, 11:05:57 02/06/03 Thu

I'm trying to like Kennedy, I really am. But.. (spoilers through 7.13) -- Shiraz, 12:53:05 02/05/03 Wed

I really want to like Kennedy, but she just has no humanizing qualities AT ALL. I was hoping this episode would flesh her character out a little, given her a few flaws to make the character whole, but the oposite occurred.

As evidence, lets take a look at her and Willow's wierd evening:

First off, once again we have an example of rules that apply to everyone else not applying to her:
1) Proto-slayers must attend the watcher-guided shamanic ritual/bonding retreat.

Our little vixen slyly fakes the flu in order to give her the privacy she needs to put the moves on the cute witch. Do you really think Molly or Vi would have gotten away with that?

2) State of California's drinking is 21, not 19 (Kennedy's established age).

Yes this is a nitpick, and I wouldn't normally bring it up, but the drinking age has been brought up before on the show (Anya's "give me a frickin beer" line in Doppelgangland and Xander's Fake ID in Beer Bad). That and the fact they were drinking froofy girl drinks. (its a thing)
Yes, I know Willow could have bought the drinks, but Kennedy states that she's trying to get Willow drunk, making Kennedy the purchaser.

Secondly, when Willow asks Kennedy how she knows, Kennedy responds with a long list of patented romance-novel platitudes. "I saw the rainbow sticker on your I-Book" or "Dawn told me" I could have respected, but the quasi-mystical 'gaydar' struck me as a little suspect.

Third, Kennedy knew she was a lesbian when she was five... three years before she started shooting her crossbow... at her summer home in the Hamptons. Am I the only one who thinks they might be ladeling on the 'extrodinary circumstances' a little much for this girl?

Finally, the show's grand finaly: Those of you in the Mid-west might have heard the loud thump as I banged my head against the wall. Kennedy, who states that she knows nothing about magic, has it all figured out by the last scene and, 'cause this whole magic thing that we've been dealing with the last seven years, its all just like a fairy tale and she, who's known Willow for all of a month, can fix the whole thing with a kiss. And glory be! The spell is broken!

Ensign Kennedy has stopped another warp core breach usuing only her gutsy can-do attitude and her trusty hairpin!

In the final analysis, the reason I can't accept Kennedy does not seem human to me. In the very terrifying situation of this season, she shows no fear. In the very uncertain role of potential slayer she shows no self-doubt. In the very conflicting roles of potential slayer, rich daughter, and young lesbian she shows no emotional conflict. How can anyone who's going through all of this be so un-affected?

-Shiraz

[> A defense of Kennedy -- Sophist, 13:18:00 02/05/03 Wed

Our little vixen slyly fakes the flu in order to give her the privacy she needs to put the moves on the cute witch. Do you really think Molly or Vi would have gotten away with that?

Yes, I think anyone with the flu would have been allowed to stay home. I assume you mean "would they have gotten away with it once Willow discovered the deception?" (Buffy, remember, isn't really aware of the deception). Since Willow clearly was intended to have mixed motives and feelings throughout the episode, I think the answer is "yes" for Kennedy and, realistically, "no" for the others.

State of California's drinking is 21, not 19 (Kennedy's established age).

Kennedy wasn't necessarily drinking alcohol. The plot only required that Willow be doing so.

the quasi-mystical 'gaydar' struck me as a little suspect.

I can't see why it's such a big issue. In any case, if the concept is common enough for a word to have been invented for it (and perhaps a cliche), then maybe we should suspend disbelief. Kind of like with Buffy's insight on the tower in The Gift.

Kennedy knew she was a lesbian when she was five

Sexual identity is very complex. Clearly, no 5 year old would phrase it that way. But I don't see any reason to doubt that a 19 year old, looking back on her life, would see her 5-year-old self as having clear preferences.

Kennedy, who states that she knows nothing about magic, has it all figured out by the last scene and, 'cause this whole magic thing that we've been dealing with the last seven years, its all just like a fairy tale and she, who's known Willow for all of a month, can fix the whole thing with a kiss. And glory be! The spell is broken!

Read dream's post in the "Tell me now, dammit" thread. She says it much better, but here's the short version: Kennedy didn't solve the magic problem, she solved the very human problem of understanding Willow's sense of betrayal that prevented her from moving on after Tara. The kiss didn't break the spell; Willow's internal realization broke the spell. The kiss merely sealed the break.

Personally, I like Kennedy.

[> [> Credit should also go to Anneth re: my last point -- Sophist, 13:33:15 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Credit should also go to Anneth re: my last point -- DEN, 21:35:36 02/05/03 Wed

After all the hoo-hah surrounding magic in the last two years, I find it refreshing to have a character with a "Yeah, whatever" take on it. The kiss did not BREAK the spell;it CHALLENGED the spell by stating "this is real; this is here and now."

Blessings ,children! Do it once for me!

[> [> [> [> Exactly. I think it's good they moved away so expressly from the magic/sex metaphor -- Sophist, 08:57:37 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> Kennedy serves a specific purpose -- cjc36, 05:47:00 02/06/03 Thu

And that is to have Willow move on. Kennedy is what they came up with. Now the way ME has chosen is a fast track, which requires Kennedy to be pretty aggressive in coming onto Willow. Whether one likes this or not depends on ones taste in types of romantic coupling and so forth. I don't have a real problem with Kennedy, but I don't take her as a 'full' character. Remember Oz and Tara hadn't fully formed by their fifth episode. Kennedy is a recurring guest star. Sadly, we may not have the opportunity - next season in any form is still in debate - to see her experience the full range of human feelings that would come if she were 'bumped up' to full-time cast member.

But for now I have no problem finding out more about this person. She's confident, but totally different than Buffy or Kendra or Faith, and is my choice right now to be the next Slayer (among the choices given in the SITs so far).

[> Re: I'm trying to like Kennedy, I really am. But.. (spoilers through 7.13) -- CW, 13:25:26 02/05/03 Wed

Might I suggest that, when Kennedy went back to get the truth out of Amy she was displaying the humanizing qualities of concern and compassion. I don't think you really mean to say that you hate everbody who runs around without all their flaws showing. Does every character on TV have to be conflicted and flawed before you can accept them? We had the same problem last season with people saying they hated Riley's wife Sam because she was too perfect. Frankly, the show Seventh Heaven where everybody is too perfect is more than I can take. But, saying that Kennedy is nothing like a human being is a little extreme in my book.

Re: the drinks. Don't take things too literally. We don't actually know what is in them. Kennedy's line about getting Willow drunk is funnier if you consider there may be no alchohol in the drinks at all.

[> [> Re: I'm trying to like Kennedy, I really am. But.. (spoilers through 7.13) -- dream, 13:57:04 02/05/03 Wed

There's an aspect of the reasoning on Kennedy that I don't get. Many posters seem to say that
A) She is too aggressive, too pushy, and she thinks she's above the rules.
b) She is also too perfect.

I would think A would negate B. I also find that Kennedy reminds me of a certain type of girl I met for the first time in college - wealthy, competent, and self-assured to the point of being a tad unnerving for people from backgrounds that were rather less promoting of confidence. They scared me a bit, but I liked them, as I like Kennedy now, while still finding her audacity a bit breathtaking.

I think that we tend to like or not like certain characters on instinct, then look for reasons why. It's human nature.

[> [> [> That is yet another non-flaw flaw -- Shiraz, 21:27:25 02/05/03 Wed

When I say that, what I mean is that its the kind of thing you're supposed to say when the job interviewer asks you:

"What would you say is your biggest flaw?"

Any good HR person knows the correct answers to this are things like: "I'm a perfectionist.", "I'm obsessive about my work", or even "I despise bigotry.".

Because these "flaws" are really virtues restated to look something like character flaws.

Never ever:

"I sometimes sleep late", "I drink too much" or "I surf to TV fan websites during the slow times during work hours".

Because these are real flaws that might give someone a bad impression of you.

Kennedy's 'flaws' fit this model. Using this code:

"I'm too aggressive." becomes "I'm a fircely independent individual who knows what she wants and is not afraid to get it."

"I'm shocking forward with my sexuality." Becomes:

"I'm totally at easy with my lesbian identity and am not afraid to show it."

Now a real flaw for Kennedy (the ones I was waiting to get some sense of) would be:

"I'm scared to death my parents will find out about my sexality/slayer status." or

"All the others have been looking up to me for guidance and Buffy expects me to be an example for them, but I don't know if I can live up to that."

or even:

"You know, I'm really nervous about this date."

That alone would have satisfied me, but I got no indication of it.

All I'm saying is, when certain death situations arise, let the girl be afraid (like we let Buffy be afraid), and when major wierdness happens, let her get flustered (like Willow).

-Shiraz

P.S. I think I found myself on that flame war list thingy; I'm "The Palooka"

[> [> [> [> Unrealized Potential -- Malandanza, 08:09:41 02/06/03 Thu

I think Kennedy has been slowly building up barriers between herself and the rest of the potentials:

First, she the oldest -- an adult among teenagers (nothing she can do about that).

Instead of spending her time with the other potentials, Kennedy has been spending it chatting up Willow. While the other potentials stay up until the wee hours of the morning chattering and bonding, Kennedy is away in Willow's room.

She skipped out on the whole vision quest -- the other potentials will have a shared experience that Kennedy missed. I'm curious about the visions the potential get -- will it be the same "Death is your gift" oracle that Buffy got, or will it be specific to each potential? If it's the latter case, Kennedy missed out on a piece of her destiny in order to go on a date with Willow.

Kennedy is now romantically (or at least sexually) involved with one of her "watchers" -- that, by itself, is enough to set her apart entirely from the other girls. (And I think there is something of a double standard for Willow -- if it had been Xander and a potential, there would have been some sort of outcry for the inappropriate relationship). Kennedy isn't going to become one of the Scoobies -- but at the same time, she has removed herself from the potentials.

If your looking for flaws, I'd suggest looking back at Anya's speech in Potential -- where she says that if a potential is not picked after a lifetime of training:" if she doesn't, then her whole life smells of unfulfilled potential." Add that to Kennedy's comment from an earlier episode that she thinks she's too old to be called and you have some genuine angst (and I think it is just this very issue that drives Kennedy).

If you compare Kennedy with Willow during their Bronze date - Willow talks about the one great love of her life, Kennedy talks about seduction techniques. There is a disconnect with what the two women expect from the burgeoning relationship -- Willow is looking for a romantic partner while Kennedy is looking for a good time. It seems to me that Kennedy likes the hunt, the challenge of the seduction -- especially if the target is unsure of her sexuality. Willow's initial reticence would have proved just the challenge a bored potential trapped in Sunnydale would want. What happens the day after? Will Kennedy still be as thrilled with Willow? It may well be Willow's first relationship where she doesn't wield the power. And Kennedy could turn out to be Parker without the deception.

Kennedy now knows Willow killed someone -- but she doesn't know the details. Willow would be unlikely to volunteer them, but Kennedy has to be curious. It doesn't really bother me that Kennedy wasn't immediately taken aback by the revelation -- after all, Willow works with the slayer, they kill things all the time. If she knew the circumstances of Warren's capture/torture/murder she might have greater reservations -- and I think she will ask about Willow now. Buffy and Xander seem unlikely sources of information since Buffy is focused on the war and Xander hasn't had any interaction with Kennedy -- so I'd say Dawn and Andrew are her best bets, neither of whom are going to go to any great pains to put a positive spin on Willow's dark magic rampage.

So if Kennedy has already set herself apart from the other potentials and manages to estrange herself from Willow (either by her actions or because of qualms she has when she learns the truth about Willow and Warren), she's likely to become a very lonely potential.

Plus, if Faith ever really returns to the show, it might be interesting to see Kennedy drawn to Faith while Willow watches helplessly.

[> [> [> [> Well, maybe, but... -- dream, 08:53:35 02/06/03 Thu

I can understand your point, but fans do seem really put off by her aggressiveness, which implies a pushiness and possibly recklessness of a nature that could be a real problem. One of the problems is that almost any characteristic can be described in either positive or negative terms. There was actually a really interesting study done once of personality traits. A group of people were asked to choose their worst traits from a list of qualities, the things they would most like to change about themselves. ("Pushy" or "Unable to plan" or "Uptight"). Later, they were asked to choose the characteristics from a list that they believed reprensented their best characteristics. Not surprisingly, people choose the "same" characteristics, described in a positive way. Pushy became self-assured, unable to plan became spontaneous, uptight become organized and orderly. (No, those aren't perfect - I'm just working off the top of my head here. But you get the idea. People had a hard time changing their faults, because their faults were also their strengths, and they were used to seeing the quality's opposite in a negative light. So the same people listed the qualities they found most undesirable to be the negative terminology for the very thing they had earlier said they considered a weakness - the ones concerned about being pushy disliked mousiness, not realizing that they had to learn to value humility. Again, not perfect terms, but you get the idea. Boy, I am WAY off-topic.) So I would say that what we are seeing so far is that Kennedy is self-assured/pushy, brave/reckless, comfortable with her sexuality/promiscuous(?). Some posters have seen these in some ways, some in others (probably depending on your own personality traits - I haven't got Kennedy's self-assurance, so I rather admire it.) You are definitely right that these traits have been played up in the most positive light to this point, but I think the negative potential is real (unlike, say "I hate bigotry.") I don't think she has to show flaws of the sort you seem to want - all of which are similar, based on fears and self-doubts, which she might lack and, for that matter, need. I could see her independence revealing itself to include a lack of teamwork - or as Mal indicates, an inability to accept her position among the potentials rather than the scooby gang. Her willingness to run into a battle situation without fear could get her and others into trouble - not cute trouble, you-have-no-idea-what-you-are-dealing-with-here-and-you-almost-got-us-all-killed trouble. I'm willing to wait and see.

[> [> Well, actually... -- Shiraz, 15:21:32 02/05/03 Wed

Yes concern and compassion are human qualities, but they are also the qualities of saints, angels, and superheros.

But you knew that.

And frankly, YES a character does need to show some human weakness before I can identify with them, and this goes for all the shows I watch. I wouldn't have given Buffy a second thought if she'd been shown as a perfect student during the day, a popular social butterfly in the evening, and the dark avenger of Sunnydale at night, all the while remaining perky and compassionate 24/7.

I stick by my assessment. Oz was taciturn, Tara painfully shy, and Riley had his inferiority complex, and all of these traits were very early in these character's development arc. Kennedy has shown no such development, and without that, I can't truly care about the character.

-Shiraz

[> Does getting involved with a psychopath count as a flaw? -- yez, 14:02:02 02/05/03 Wed

I mean, seriously, going after a girl who's obviously lugging around more baggage than the Gabor sisters? That's not a flaw? If Kennedy didn't know it before, Willow's got some serious emotional issues going on here, not to mention the fact that Willow, of late, has had a serious propensity for getting just the slightest bit murderous.

As Geiger said on "Alias" recently, "There were so many red flags, I thought I was in Communist China." (paraphrased)

And standing up to Amy, that was just plain stupid. Amy swatted her into the fifth row without breaking a sweat. I think Kennedy's biggest flaw -- and perhaps her biggest strength -- is her bravado. Not only in theoretical combat situations (we haven't actually seen her fight yet) but in girl-hunt mode.

But hell, just look at her. Can you really blame her for being sexually overconfident?

yez

[> I'm tried NOT to like Kennedy, But I really do. (spoilers through 7.13) -- WickedBuffy, 14:42:23 02/05/03 Wed

I didn't wantto like her - didn't want Tara "replaced" and also thought she looked like a doofus whenever she was standing around or just had a line here or there.

BUT, after last nights episode, I like her alot! Believe it or not, I know lots of grrls pretty much just like her. I've heard those exact same lines in bars. And "gaydar" isn't mystical in any sense, it's pretty much a blend of experience and intuition. Kennedy knew her orientation since she was five, so she had alot of time for experience. (Ok, no one I know is a Slayer, though.)

As for faking the flu - Willow herself seemed like she was glad for it. Give her a break. Which plays right along with the storyline about her tremendous guilt overtaking her later during the spell. The subconscious guilt had started way before the kiss, even before the tea.

[> [> I don't Willow would trip gaydar, though. -- yez, 14:59:39 02/05/03 Wed

And she certainly hadn't been flirting, as far as I could tell.

This is one of the problems I'm having with the relationship, I'm not seeing the chemistry. Though, I didn't see the sexual chemistry between Willow and Tara either -- though they did have a lot of "you're my favorite person" chemistry, but that's not the same thing. I always thought they looked supremely awkward touching each other, too. At least Lim�n manages to believably exude "I really want to kiss you" vibes, and the kiss looked decent. I find it hard to believe that Kennedy would go after Willow, though, even after her little speech. It's also too operatic, IMHO -- I've known you for 5 minutes and now I'm so deeply in LOVE with you I think I'll sing a beautiful song.

yez

[> [> [> Re: I don't Willow would trip gaydar, though. -- WickedBuffy, 15:44:30 02/05/03 Wed

"It's also too operatic, IMHO -- I've known you for 5 minutes and now I'm so deeply in LOVE with you I think I'll sing a beautiful song."

Reminds me of a in-crowd little joke:

Question: What does a lesbian bring on her second date?
Answer: A U-Haul.

Anyway, Willow wouldn't trip my gaydar either, but that's mostly because I don't like whiny redheads. (No offense to Willowfans). And, heh, that actress is not actually gay. Personally, I saw chemistry between Oz and Willow, but Willow and no one else, not even Tara except as best pals. Now, I think there would be believable chemistry between Tara and Kennedy.

As for Willow flirting, wasn't she all wide-eyed and blushing when Kennedy would say things about the bed, then later other stuff? Willow didn't turn away or look all stern and upset or anything - she would just make her eyes bigger and then coyly look down or blush. To some, that would be saying the flirting is ok. Buffy seemed to think maybe some flirting was going on when she was teasing Willow about taking tea up to Kennedy. That was on Willows own initiative.

[> [> [> Relationships and 'chemistry' -- Tyreseus, 15:58:02 02/05/03 Wed

This is one of the problems I'm having with the relationship, I'm not seeing the chemistry.

I always get a little perplexed when I hear this criticism of any relationship. It can mean so many things. For example:

1. It's a criticism of the skills of the actors involved. They couldn't make eye contact, they didn't casually touch each other often enough. At any rate, it amounts to the actors failing to sell you on sexual/romantic attraction.

2. It's a criticism of the writing. The dialogue doesn't seem enough to lead to the moment we're seeing, or doesn't abide by the action/reaction rules we generally accept. It means that the writers haven't laid out the necessary groundwork for you to suspend your disbelief.

3. It's a point of view issue. We identify the characters as being incompatible in real life based on our own perceptions of successful relationships, cultural biases and personal experiences. This is where you have a prejudice that prevents you from accepting the couple.

4. It's a meaningless phrase used when you can't pinpoint your objections to a relationship. It's a catch-phrase made popular by 30-second movie critics that sounds credible without any real supporting reasons.

I'm having trouble deciding if your objection to the "chemistry" between Willow and Kennedy is more a type #1 reponse or a type #2 response. I don't think it's a type #3 or #4.

At any rate, we always cloud our acceptance of tv/movie relationships with our own personal biases on some level. I (for example) know a self-confident, slightly pushy lesbian from a prosperous background who seduced my best friend in a manner like Kennedy and Willow (minus the magic spells, vampires and murder guilt, of course)- therefore, I have no problem buying the chemistry between these two.

But I see and acknowledge your complaints. You seem to think the relationship has been forced. I, on the other hand, think it's been pretty slow in coming. Kennedy has been subtly flirting with Willow since the first day they met... they've been living under the same roof for two or three months... even the re-emergence of painfullyshy!Willow seems like a plot device to further extend the courting period. And I'm not saying that it hasn't been difficult for Willow to get over Tara, but when confronted with such a straightforward flirt, it's hard to hold back as long as Willow did. I don't mean sex, I mean how on earth has she avoided a heart-to-heart on the subject of lesbian attraction for this long? Or the get-to-know-you-better conversation which was hinted at a few episodes back in Willow's bedroom?

What bothers me more is why was this spell more traumatic than the one in "Him?" The widow-survivor grief should have shown (spell or no) following "Him" instead of waiting this long. If her reason for the grief is as she says, she "let go" of Tara and "forgot" for a moment, didn't that happen with RJ?

My two scents (lavendar and vanilla).

[> [> [> [> Thanks for the breakdown. -- vh, 17:45:29 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: Relationships and 'chemistry' -- Rufus, 20:44:07 02/05/03 Wed

If her reason for the grief is as she says, she "let go" of Tara and "forgot" for a moment, didn't that happen with RJ?

The only way to explain the RJ scenario is either....Amy hadn't put the hex/curse on Willow at that point.....or the fact that she was under a totally different spell negated the hex that may have been put on by Amy.

[> [> [> [> Re: Relationships and 'chemistry' -- yez, 21:59:06 02/05/03 Wed

You're right: #1 and #2. Though also #3 -- I don't think we can help but have biases.

I'm curious -- how did you know they'd been living under the same roof for two or three months? I'm being sincere. I've been trying to figure out how long it's been, and I guess to me, it seems like only a few weeks have passed since Giles arrived with the SITs, but maybe I've missed some hints. If it actually has been months, I'll retract that whole bit about it happening so fast -- though I still would've liked to have seen more of the development (#2).

If I look at it like Kennedy trying to seduce Willow (for whatever reason -- power trip, conquest, etc.), then it actually makes more sense and is more believable. I just didn't pick up on that being what was actually going on. It seems to me that we're supposed to think Kennedy really has taken a sincere interest in Willow -- for reasons I'll never understand.

Not that I don't like Willow. I do. I just think that it takes a long time knowing Willow to see how cute she really is, and lately, she hasn't been all that endearing at all. Just MHO. Painfully-shy!Willow was, to me, WAY more appealing than breast-thumping, furrow-browed, "I can do it, no, wait, I can't" Willow.

And I'm not saying that I don't like what they've done with her character -- just that I find it hard to believe that she'd be attractive to anyone right now.

yez

[> What if she's a plant? (spoilers through 7.13) -- Cheryl, 15:13:28 02/05/03 Wed

Not the botanical kind, of course. :-) But this thread got me to thinking that maybe someone or something (The Powers, The First Good(?), etc.) planted Kennedy in Camp Summers for the specific purpose of helping Willow through her grief and moving on so she'd be prepared when the time comes (season/series finale) to help fight the good fight.

Just a random thought that popped into my head.

[> The real reason I don't like Kennedy... -- Solitude1056, 17:20:15 02/05/03 Wed

is because girls (or guys) like her only exist in tv-land. Let's see... athletic, wealthy, attractive, confident, and sexually aware, active and adventuresome... and likes geeks!

Hmm.

Nope, way too good to be true.

[> [> Re: The real reason I don't like Kennedy... -- Traveler, 17:45:07 02/05/03 Wed

That's something that has actually bothered me from the start. Why the sudden, intense loyalty/affection for Willow out of nowhere? I'm not saying that Willow isn't a great girl, but Kennedy really hasn't seen much of that. Quite the opposite, really. It seems like the only possible basis for her feelings would be sexual attraction, but I doubt that's what ME is trying to tell us.

[> [> [> Re: The real reason I don't like Kennedy... -- DEN, 21:52:21 02/05/03 Wed

Kennedy told us in the Bronze scene that she finds Willow incredibly, comprehensively attractive. That only puts her in the same camp as several tens of thousands of BtVS viewers.

Two other points. On the chemistry issue, it seems obvious that Willow is holding back. It was almost painful watching Kennedy put more andmore of herself on Front Street at the Bronze as Willow kept working on keeping up those defenses. And as for Kennedy's "lack of flaws" background, we only know what she tells Willow--which may not be a hundred percent accurate, or even close to the truth. We do know she stuck with Willow when the going got tough--and I will cut a lot of slack for someone who has my back in a tight spot! Let's give the girl a chance.

[> ROFLMAO, Shiraz! -- Rob, 22:59:28 02/05/03 Wed

"Ensign Kennedy has stopped another warp core breach usuing only her gutsy can-do attitude and her trusty hairpin!"

I will say at least she's more tolerable than Ro Laren. ;o)

Rob

[> Kinda neutral on Kenedy -- holdemfoldem, 09:11:19 02/06/03 Thu

She has some good qualities, like she clearly seems to be the most aware and battle ready slayer, rallying the troops, etc.
But I NEVER like to see the rules broken with no remorse or desire to make amends, (unless, of course, you're an agent of the FE, then it makes sense!).
Kenedy, probably more than the others, MUST have known the importance of the retreat as well as the vital need to be as ready as possible for the next wave of FE attacks, etc. Yet she flippantly decides to fake the flu and miss the opportunity just to go on a date. Guess we'll never know who will die who shouldn't have because of such selfishness.
In the same manner, I don't like the fact that Willow never turned herself in for murder. I'll speak in generalities so as not to spoil a much earlier BTVS episode, but Buffy was willing to turn herself in when she was made to believe she had killed a person, and only didn't do so when she realized she hadn't done it.
We all make mistakes, do the wrong thing, etc. It's not so much what we do wrong, it's whether we own up to our mistakes and what we do about them that really counts.
Guess I'm just a bit too much like Popeye: "What's wrongs is wrongs even if it helps ya'!"

Oww (spoiler 7.13) -- Artemis, 13:59:36 02/05/03 Wed

This may have been discussed, but did anyone else find it strange that Buffy said "Oww" after she hit Warren/Willow ?
It was a small point but it seemed to jump out at me because I can't remember Buffy ever hitting anyone and saying that. Other than maybe when she was given those drugs by Giles in "Helpless", and I'm not even sure she did it then. Maybe I'm reading too much. Thoughts?

[> It was an echo -- Deb, 14:12:01 02/05/03 Wed

of Spike. It allowed her to feel something without losing it, because she can't afford to lose it right now. She has things to do, even if Spike does die, even if she can't see what's in the future. Physical pain feels real good at those times when emotional pain is unbearable.

[> [> Re: Or Maybe Just a Clumsy Pointer to Corporeal Presence -- aethernodus, 16:53:14 02/05/03 Wed

[> Re: Oww (spoiler 7.13) -- Cheryl, 17:40:59 02/05/03 Wed

I just rewatched the episode and it seems to me that Buffy was expecting "Warren" to be the First (like the other Scoobies) and didn't really expect to make contact. Then again, why would she even try to hit him if she expected it to be non-corporeal (is that the word?)?

[> Re: Oww (spoiler 7.13) -- Just George, 17:45:00 02/05/03 Wed

Buffy didn't expect to hit anything (assuming Warren/Willow was the First) and so wasn't prepared. Buffy feels pain when not prepared (I remember her saying oww while pulling a brush through her hair in high school). If she was in full "I'll hit you with slayer strength" mode Buffy wouldn't feel pain (unless the target was made of stone or something).

Also, note how Warren/Willow got right back up after the hit. If Buffy had been putting out full slayer strength, Warren/Willow would have been knocked out, if not broken big time.

-JG

The perplexing new Initiative -- can I be Anne?, 14:20:52 02/05/03 Wed

First the disclaimer: I thoroughly enjoyed last night's ep However, I have to take issue with something or I will not be happy. Here goes: So, the initiative's up and running AND the place is littered with rotting corpses from three years ago? Is that lack of continuity within ONE episode? Also, I can rationalize that the lights went off as a security mechanism. Anyone who stumbled upon the buried entrance wouldn't realize what they'd found. Stranger, though, is that instead of capturing the intruders, the soldiers released a scary (hybrid?) demon to kill them(Or did it just normally have free run of the place?) When they revealed themselves, I think they told Buffy that they had been expecting her. That makes the darkness and the attack demon even weirder. I did like the "assface" remark. That made it better.

[> They were Black Ops, not Initiative -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:42:40 02/05/03 Wed

I was under the impression that, after the call to the florist's shop, some Black Ops agents were quickly sent to Sunnydale, and figured that, if Buffy was trying to de-chip Spike, she might head to the remains of the Initiative (I'm presuming they went there after a covert agent took a look at the house to make sure she wasn't there). In short, I don't think those soldiers had been there for more than an hour or so.

[> [> Thanks, that makes a lot of sense -- can I be Anne?, 15:27:19 02/05/03 Wed

[> Re: The perplexing new Initiative -- Mr. Man, 14:44:46 02/05/03 Wed

I didn't get the impression that the Initiative was using their old facility. I assumed that they arrived there because Riley sent them; they just used a different door thant Buffy and Spike.

[> All right, here's how I see it.... -- cjl, 14:49:26 02/05/03 Wed

At the end of S4, the big shots in Washington sent the word down from on high: the Initiative is done, we're finished fooling with demons, let's fill up the damn thing with concrete and be done with it.

However, I think certain officials within our government, those closest to the project, didn't feel the need to completely bury it; they put off the actual demolition, and put the money for concrete and salt in their pockets. (They didn't bother telling the Head Honcho this, of course.)

So the Initiative stayed as it was at the end of S4, wreckage and all. Nobody bothered to remove the bodies of all the demons, for precisely that reason: it's a bother. With everything shutting down and everybody bugging out, the Army boys just left the bodies there. Unfortunately, one of those demons was like the "dying" plague victim at the start of Monty Python and the Holy Grail--he got better.

So, it's two plus years later, and Buffy and Spike head down through the secret entrance. The Initiative is NOT active.

[Side note: If you think about it, the back entrance in itself could be called a continuity glitch; why did Riley and co. bother with all that security razzmatazz if anybody could just dig up some grass and dirt and gain direct access to a top-secret government facility? But it was probably something only intended for extreme emergencies, a back door entrance in case base security was compromised.]

Riley gets Buffy's message and figures she's heading down to the old Initiative compound. (Spike had the chip in for three years, longer than any other HST, so Riley probably saw this coming.) He sends the boys over with specific instructions on how to turn on the lights, and instructions about the Chip. (This is also interesting: did Riley know that his immediate superiors had no intention of covering his old stomping grounds in concrete? Ah, the tantalizing plotlines you can create while fanwanking...)

Once Buffy, Spike and the boys are done with whatever they're doing, I have no doubt they'll shut off the lights, leave, and the Initiative will be dormant again, waiting for that glorious day when the project gets its next secret appropriation from the Pentagon...

[> [> Re: All right, here's how I see it.... -- WickedBuffy, 15:57:20 02/05/03 Wed

Sounds great to me! But I still don't get the plot line involvling fighting that creature. They fought it a long time. (Buffy didn't seem to be doing very well at all with it, in fact, worse than when she fought the Uber Vamp) I'm not questioning how it got there, just why it was in the story - unless it's gong to lead to something else later.

... suddenly the lights go on and the entire upper floor is neatly and solidly ringed with unmoving soldiers? Why didn't the first one in pop on the lights and go into action immediately as they filed in? It was almost as if they were waiting up there in perfect formation to see who would win.

[> [> [> Well, aside from its value for being creepy - -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:26:21 02/05/03 Wed

It has relatively the same importance as random vampire staking that doesn't directly further to plot, but the purpose of those is never questioned.

As for fighting, you must remember that it was totally dark. It's got to be harder to fight an enemy when you can't see him (especially if the enemy can see in the dark, as it's quite possible that demon could).

[> [> [> [> Buffys Nightvision -- WickedBuffy, 20:10:17 02/05/03 Wed

She just seemed weaker to me. Plus, I remember when she could catch a knife between her hands right before it hit her face - and she was blindfolded at the time.

[> [> [> [> [> I don't remember the knife thing you mentioned. When did that happen? -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:37:32 02/05/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't remember the knife thing you mentioned. When did that happen? -- WickedBuffy, 10:07:23 02/06/03 Thu

She did it in training when Giles was teaching her to use her other senses. Like when she "senses" someone is behind her and stakes them without turning around, etc. If you really need the episode # and no one else remembers exactly, I'll try going thru old scripts to find it.

[> [> Re: All right, here's how I see it.... -- Rufus, 20:47:48 02/05/03 Wed

At the end of S4, the big shots in Washington sent the word down from on high: the Initiative is done, we're finished fooling with demons, let's fill up the damn thing with concrete and be done with it.

However, I think certain officials within our government, those closest to the project, didn't feel the need to completely bury it; they put off the actual demolition, and put the money for concrete and salt in their pockets. (They didn't bother telling the Head Honcho this, of course.)

LOL......so what you are saying is that saying doesn't always translate out into doing....;)

[> [> Re: All right, here's how I see it.... -- dream, 06:30:01 02/06/03 Thu

***Riley gets Buffy's message and figures she's heading down to the old Initiative compound. (Spike had the chip in for three years, longer than any other HST, so Riley probably saw this coming.) He sends the boys over with specific instructions on how to turn on the lights, and instructions about the Chip. (This is also interesting: did Riley know that his immediate superiors had no intention of covering his old stomping grounds in concrete? Ah, the tantalizing plotlines you can create while fanwanking...)**

I just assumed they could still track Spike. Can't they do that, or am I forgetting a plot point?

[> [> [> All Bureaucracies Tend towards Chaos -- cjl, 07:43:57 02/06/03 Thu

Rufus: Any bureaucracy large enough so that the person on top never has any contact with the people on the floor inevitably develops a twisted, labrynthine internal political system often working at cross-purposes with itself. It's the price you pay for employing human beings...

dream: You're right--if the chip malfunction didn't short cirucit the tracer, they could still track Spike. But Riley had to tell the solider boys what to do with Spike once they got to him.

[> [> [> [> Spike's tracer was removed in The "I" in Team -- Sophist, 08:52:27 02/06/03 Thu

[> Blame it on the White House -- Tyreseus (with tongue in cheek), 18:19:50 02/05/03 Wed

Let's assume that President Clinton rubber stamped the concrete-filling-in operation toward the end of his presidency, but as soon as Dubya was sworn in, he called a halt to the project as Republicans always have good use for evil killers. Look how the ongoing Saddam Soap Opera have kept Dubya's approval ratings sky-high.

[grins sheepishly and ducks the confederate flag thrown by his Republican friends.]

[> [> Re: Blame it on the White House -- DEN, 21:14:07 02/05/03 Wed

That image of filling the site with concrete is so vivid it stayed with many viewers. But checking both the shooting script and the episode tape it seems more reasonable to take the statement as rhetoric. The official's intention is to close down the project, roll it up, and bury it; he uses several similar images to make the point. But filling an underground site that size with concrete is for practical purposes impossible, apart from the issue of secrecy--the Iniitiative is in the middle of a college campus! In practice, secret installations that are closed down are usually stripped; then the entrances and ventilation shafts, etc. are locked and concealed. That was the pattern even in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. Leaving the demon bodies and much of the material is unlikely in reality, but fits under the "creepy convenience" factor, and by extension under "willing suspension of disbelief." ME, in short, deserves a pass on the concrete issue.

[> [> [> Concur: a practical decision with ramifications, not a retcon -- pr10n, 10:03:17 02/06/03 Thu

Amy -- Dochawk, 19:03:58 02/05/03 Wed

Ok anyone else think there is more here than just Amy being jealous of Willow? How did she know Kennedy was a potential slayer? And why? I think there is something here that we aren't seeing or aware of yet.

[> Re: Amy -- WickedBuffy, 19:24:44 02/05/03 Wed

I think she's teamed up with The First - probably with the promise of powers, more than Willows. And in addition to being jealous, Willow did cut Amy off from being friends during her cold-turkey spell. The Kennedy is a SIT info was odd.

[> [> I agree -- Vickie, 19:43:01 02/05/03 Wed

As soon as she said "oops" (Or "uh oh"?) I thought she WAS The First. We haven't seen Amy in almost a year. Mishaps occur in Sunnydale.

[> [> [> Re: I agree -- AgnosticSorcerer, 20:00:27 02/05/03 Wed

Amy has displayed quite a magical proficiency both in Season 6 and in Season 7, so I would not think it beyond her scrying ability to know about the SIT.

[> [> [> [> Re: I agree -- WickedBuffy, 20:06:51 02/05/03 Wed

Like Vicki pointed out, that "oops" or whatever Amy said sarcastically seemed to imply something more going on about her knowing about Kennedy. It was dripping with evil-something.

[> [> [> [> [> In fact (Spoilers for KIM) -- Sophist, 20:23:15 02/05/03 Wed

the ending of the episode essentially requires that Amy send Kennedy into Buffy's backyard (of course, the plan must have been that Willow would actually kill Kennedy).

Amy said the spell was a "penance malediction". She couldn't have known in advance what the trigger was for Willow feeling the need for penance, because she set the spell up to let Willow's subconscious choose the punishment. Nor, for the same reason, could she have known in advance what form the punishment would take.

Once she saw that Willow had turned into Warren, the first piece of the puzzle was in place. Amy then needed information about the trigger in order to take full advantage of Willow/Warren, and could only get it from Kennedy.

My assumption is, therefore, that she let the secret slip on purpose to discover if Kennedy was the one who should be sent to serve as the intended victim.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: In fact (Spoilers for KIM) -- anom, 21:30:44 02/05/03 Wed

"the ending of the episode essentially requires that Amy send Kennedy into Buffy's backyard"

I was thinking when Willow showed up that no one would be there--everyone else staying at the house had left!

Of course, there's also the question of why would Amy send the one person to Willow who could reverse the spell?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Kennedy didn't reverse the spell... -- ZachsMind, 22:00:09 02/06/03 Thu

As Masq eloquently explains in her rundown of the episode at atpobtvs.com, Kennedy's kiss wasn't what caused the spell to be broken. The spell isn't really broken. It's probable that the hex Amy put on Willow has been on her for some time. Perhaps even as far back as halfway through season six, when Willow swore off magic.

Willow's guilt is what triggers the hex, and when she no longer feels guilty, the hex's affects go into remission, but they do not remove the hex. In theory, only Amy can do that. Kennedy's kiss instigated the latest ramifications of this hex, and brought Amy's admission of the 'crime' to the forefront, but the hex is still there. Willow just learned to let Tara go, and didn't feel guilty about it anymore. At least for the moment.

This could happen again, in unpredictable ways. Willow's not out of the woods yet.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ok, let's get a little more specific, then -- anom, 09:26:22 02/07/03 Fri

I said: "Of course, there's also the question of why would Amy send the one person to Willow who could reverse the spell?"

Those shortcuts get me into trouble every time. ZachsMind replied:

"Kennedy's kiss wasn't what caused the spell to be broken. The spell isn't really broken....Willow's guilt is what triggers the hex, and when she no longer feels guilty, the hex's affects go into remission, but they do not remove the hex. In theory, only Amy can do that."

OK, so what Amy did was send Willow the one person who knew enough about what was going on that she had a chance to help Willow get over the guilt, if only temporarily, & put the spell into remission. Oh, & to tell her about it so she'll know enough that she might be able to reverse it fully. I haven't seen anything that implies only Amy can reverse her own spell--the only ones we've heard that about are vengeance demon spells, & as far as we know Amy's not a vengeance demon (...yet, as some posters have discussed elsewhere). We've seen Willow & other magic users reverse or override spells cast by someone else several times. Sometimes it's as simple as "Let the spell be ended." I have a feeling it won't be this time, either because Amy made it more complicated or because Willow has a lot more work to do to get past the emotions that trigger the spell's manifestations before she'll be able to deal w/the underlying spell.

But that remains a question. As does why Amy would send the one person to Willow who....

[> [> Agree. -- yez, 22:04:14 02/05/03 Wed

The stuff she was saying about why she'd cast the spell on Willow... it just seemed like someone or something had been "whispering in her ear" and poisoning her against Willow; it just doesn't seem like her grievances should be that great. I agree with others that the FE probably promised her something, maybe power, for her help. I also think maybe the FE helped with the power she had -- she seemed pretty potent.

yez

[> Just agreeing with everyone. -- CW, 20:26:38 02/05/03 Wed

It wouldn't be surprising if the First appeared to Amy as Rack, either. From there getting all the information on what Willow was involved with, and getting the encouragement Amy would need to mess with Willow would be easy. I don't think Amy would be brave enough or strong enough in her magic to risk challenging Willow's power without the First backing her up.

[> [> Re: Just agreeing with everyone. -- DEN, 21:00:24 02/05/03 Wed

It seems reasonable that Amy would have picked up at least general information on the presence of the SITs through the demon/vampire grapevine, then done some investigating on her own.While a link with the First might be helpful, it;s not necessary--Amy's spell turns Willow's own power against her. In the same context, I find Amy's justifications very "human." How often do we hate someone for banal or base reasons--they got the promotion we wanted--but prefer to justify our resentment, even to ourselves, in high-minded terms?

[> [> [> Re: Just agreeing with everyone. -- Shiraz, 21:38:19 02/05/03 Wed

That's certainly what's indicated by the show, but that makes things even more nonsensical! If we accept what your're saying (and you very well may be right), then Amy purposely picked a fight with a much more powerful witch. Using a spell which could easily drive her insane, when she knows full well what happened the last time Willow went all King Lear on us. And finally, she'd have to not care that Willow knows all of this, because she told one of Willow's friends her entire diabolical scheme and then let them go and warn her.

Its a bit of a stumper to me.

-Shiraz

[> [> [> [> Is this like those Tips For Meglomaniac Villians? -- Solitude1056, 22:00:56 02/05/03 Wed

Y'know, the one that says something like:

"If the hero breaks into your otherwise impenetratable bad guy lair, do not bother to explain your evil plan, how you tricked the hero, or what you're going to do after killing the hero. Just shoot him and gloat later."

Bwahahaha.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Is this like those Tips For Meglomaniac Villians? -- DEN, 22:53:08 02/05/03 Wed

Exactly, Sol. I think we're just stuck here with an "exposition convention" borrowed from the thriller genre--it happens to James Bond all the time! The challenge in such cases is how well the cliche is handled, and I think it was reasonably done in that Amy explained briefly and cogently what she'd done, why she'd done it, and how it worked. At least Anya wasn't teleporting in and out as she waved her gossamer wings! (TTG/Grave)

[> [> [> [> [> The First is a Meglomaniac Villians -- WickedBuffy, 09:58:14 02/06/03 Thu

Amy's revelations to Kennedy so Kennedy could go save her reminds me of when The First boasted to Buffy that Angel would soon be dead, burnt in the sunrise. Of course Buffy ran to save him.

Is Ego truly Evils weak spot? Or is it always part of some hidden agenda for later?

[> [> [> [> Re: Just agreeing with everyone/shakespeare (spoilers also for angel soulless) -- maxam, 12:30:55 02/06/03 Thu

the envy also resembles the iago/othello/desdemona reference made in "soulless"
could it also be that this is not really amy but amy's mother again in amy's body (and possibly also dead to be imaged as the first evil) amy's mom was pretty envious
apologise if this has been mentioned

[> Follow-up to Vickie -- Sophist, 09:28:26 02/06/03 Thu

The newly shrunken Board already archived your thread from yesterday. This seems as good a place as any to add some comments now that I've re-watched the episode.

I can now confirm that Willow's first Warren-like behavior came immediately after Amy performed her second spell (the one with the coven). Before then, all we saw was Willow's personality in Warren's body. This reinforces my sense that Amy's second spell contributed to the emergence of Warren.

As I said above (the "In fact" post), Amy could not have known in advance what would trigger Willow's felt need for penance, nor the exact form the punishment would take. That is, Amy could not have foreseen Warren. I see the second spell as Amy "improving" the original by drawing out the implications of the "penance malediction" so as to make them even more horrific to Willow (and everyone else).

The operative words of the second spell were indeed ambiguous:

"Give back the form the soul requires. See that the balance is set right."

In context, Willow's soul required punishment; that was the point of the "penance malediction". This, I interpret as calling for more Warren-like aspects to manifest. "Setting the balance right" has one meaning to Willow, but an entirely different one to Warren. By first calling out "Warren" and then telling him to "set the balance right", the second spell seems to have set up the confrontation in the backyard. YMMV.

"The Killer in Me": The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (Both Seductive And Sweet), 19:59:20 02/05/03 Wed

Mood: depressed. Incredibly depressed. No good can come of this episode. Okay, there were a few things I liked, namely:

Fashion Statements
The Good
Dawn's black shirt and sparkly little pendant. That girl looks better and better each week. Too bad she's been so deficient at going evil lately.

Willow's red shirt and her necklace. More than adequate. Honestly, what woman *doesn't* look good in red?

Not spectacular, but notable: Buffy's black shirt was actually becoming this week. I'll reserve judgment on that scarf, however.

Amy's black tankdress. Simply smashing. And is it my imagination, or has she filled out a bit? Last time we saw her, she was on the gaunt side. The breasts are a great improvement.

Giles may be the only male who can make plaid flannel look sexy.

WilloWarren was a quantum fashion leap ahead of GeekWarren or FEWarren. Wow! I could look at him for a full two seconds without retching this week.

Spike in chains. A one-week break was long enough.

The Bad
Kennedy. Suspenders? No, no, no. And that shirt! Haven't I said she needs some deep colors? Borrow that gorgeous red thing from Dawn, STAT!

Anya and Xander have apparently taken over the Worst-Dressed Dysfunctional Couple title from Willow and Tara last season. I'm just glad Anya kept that marginally-acceptable jacket on, because what I saw of the blouse frightened me. Xander's puke-green shirt was no fun to look at, either.

The Iffy
Is Spike getting roots?

Plot in a Nutshell
Kennedy tries to seduce Willow, the Scoobies try to find out if Giles is touchable, and Buffy and Spike try to find out why his chip is going all wonky. The first and the third involve great pain. The second involves groping.

Demonic Quibbles and Comments
I'll say it right now: D'Hoffryn needs to make Amy an offer post-haste. There are other Vengeance Demon recruiters, after all, and if D'Hoffryn wants to win the title again this season, he needs to replace Halfrek and Anyanka. Amy, it seems to me, would make an admirable Vengeance Demon. Just replace that ridiculous crystal with a power-center amulet and she'd be ready to roar.

Not exactly show-related, but has anyone considered that Cal Worthington and Bob Barker may, in fact, be the same entity? I really think they are.

Highlights
Willow going all Warreny. Couldn't have happened to a nicer, cuddly-wuddly, formerly-evil witch.

Buffy and Spike in the old Initiative tunnel. It reminded me of this great demon nightclub right outside Berlin during WWII. Ah, those were the days!

Amy giving up on the insipid act and revealing her Inner Bitch. I always did like that girl!

WilloWarren's wicked grin. I liked it.

The relaying of Riley's fun little epithet for Spike. Add "whipped" to the front of it, and it bears a striking resemblance to my own nickname for the Bleached Wonder.

Giles being touchable. However, that unfortunately meant . . .

Lowlights
. . . Giles didn't have all those annoying Potentials slaughtered in the desert. Phooey!

Kennedy macking on Willow. You know, I like forthrightness in a girl (or guy--unlike some people, I keep my options open), but please, aim higher! If you're wanting to get yourself a ride, Kennedy, there's a scorchingly sexy Slayer in jail no doubt just *dying* for a conjugal visit.

The Scoobies *not* shoving Andrew out of the car in front of a truck.

Love yet again conquering all. Bleah! And poor Iyari Limon for having to kiss those two.

Burning Questions
So what took Robson so long? And how'd he survive, anyway? He looked like he was on his last legs to me last time we saw him.

And how'd Giles survive?

Furthermore, how could anyone not have hugged him? I mean, really: you've got a man like that available for the hugging, there's no reason not to treat yourself to a cuddle.

What will the final disposition of Spike's chip be?

Why didn't they let us see Molly get locked in the trunk? I'd have paid good money, myself.

Did Dawn do as Giles asked and clonk Vi over the head with her notebook? If not, she needs a spanking. Dawn, not Vi. Though Vi could probably use one, too.

The Immoral of the Story
If you ever find yourself getting turned into the man (or one of the men) you flayed and incinerated, blame it on the last seductive little tart you kissed.

Overall Rating
Complex one this evening. Factor in Amy's spectacular little vengeance, some good clothes, and an appearance of Giles, and it almost equals out the foul depression that settled on me by the end, the combined force of Anya and Kennedy's wardrobe, yet another week without Wood, and the WilloWarren snogging. I believe the final rating on the Non Sequitur Scale, therefore, is: 2(puce)+nyeh/bleah-feldercarp(vermillion+2/3cyan). If anyone thinks he/she can come up with a better equation than that, I'll listen before I declare you an imbecile.

[> Re: "The Killer in Me": The Super-Evil Review -- Tess, 20:13:02 02/05/03 Wed

This episode could have been great. Actually it could have been three great shows. Spike's chip, the mystery behind Giles and the Willow/Warren all seemed rushed and poorly developed and therefore lacking overall. But it could just be the awful week I'm having which has put a damper on everything.

Hate to go all personal but I need to vent. My elderly mother fell Saturday and shattered a hip, knee and ankle. One of my good friends and employee just found out her eldest son is about to ship out for Bhagdag (not sure how you spell that). One of my student's parents had a friend steal all of her son's pictures plus the trophy he won at his last tournament. Another of my student's just found out her son-in-law is having a medical problem which is causing his brain to shrink. Another student has to have surgery to get a lump checked out. We just found out another ex-student is HIV positive. I'm losing a family of nine students because they are getting deported because they are from Jordan. And we just had a mother of a out-of-control three year old withdraw her son because we insist the students answer Yes ma'am. According to her that's something he only has to say when he's in trouble. I'm sorry to dump all this on the board. All I can say is I hope tonight's Angel can help me forget about all of this for a little while.

[> [> Re: "The Killer in Me": The Super-Evil Review -- Belladonna, 21:32:43 02/05/03 Wed

Goodness...I'm so sorry so much has been heaped on your plate. Not that it means much, random poster saying this, but I really hope things improve for you! I'll send you happy vibes.

[> [> Sorry to hear that. -- HonorH (the nice alter-ego), 22:47:09 02/05/03 Wed

Sorry to hear your life's sucky right now. I know the feeling. Hope things get better for you soon!

[> [> Best wishes Tess. -- Angela, 05:40:08 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> Hope things improve! -- vh, 05:43:06 02/06/03 Thu

[> [> Best wishes. Completely understand. And did it? -- s'kat, 15:40:50 02/06/03 Thu

Oh agree on Killer in Me = would have made three brillant episodes. Very odd season. Some episodes need more stuff and some need less.

[> *Sigh* I've awed them all into silence again. -- Honorificus (The Silent Spectacle), 23:42:22 02/05/03 Wed

How tiresome. Ah, well. What, after all, can one expect from mortals?

[> Great Pain AND Groping? Can't believe I missed it. -- Haecceitas ('Cause everything's evil in Latin), 01:07:53 02/06/03 Thu

Luckily I have your Evil and Sartorial to fill in the most important gaps--almost no one else on the net lingers so lovingly on Giles-Gropage and the sinister implications of roots. Does the flair for poetic evil and turn of screws phrase come with the whole hell-god package?

Now I won't be able to sit about waiting for the (supposedly)overnight post delivery of the tape, will have to sacrifice one of my mewling roomates to a particularly nasty hell beastie to get it NOW. Tell me, if I do in the both of them do you think I could upgrade to DVD?

---Haecceitas
in the corner sharpening knives and grumbling that Grad School sucks worse than the 27th realm of Morjok in the Slime Monsoon Season, so far.

[> [> The trick is in combining the two -- ponygoyle, 07:45:25 02/06/03 Thu

Great pain, groping... sigh, I really need to find a date. The thought of another blood-drenched holiday spent staying in and biting the heads off chocolate covered minions is depressing. Season 6 depressing.

No use moping! I'll give my wings a shake and find some sacrifices for Haecceitas and Tess, who are obviously under some sort of hex. Thinking of others will certainly bring me some sort of reward. Wait-- since I'm evil shouldn't I get a reward for thinking only of myself?

[> [> Re: Great Pain AND Groping? Can't believe I missed it. -- Honorificus (The Ultimate Guide To Ultimate Evil), 09:56:38 02/06/03 Thu

Thank you, my dear. It's so good to know my efforts are appreciated by the more enlightened beings out there.

Now I won't be able to sit about waiting for the (supposedly)overnight post delivery of the tape, will have to sacrifice one of my mewling roomates to a particularly nasty hell beastie to get it NOW. Tell me, if I do in the both of them do you think I could upgrade to DVD?

Hell beasties are so unpredictable. Nonetheless, it couldn't hurt (you, at least) to try. Actually, I always recommend sacrificing one's roommates just on the principle of the matter. Aside from borrowing their clothes and hair-care products, what use is there for them, anyway?

[> [> [> Re: Great Pain AND Groping? Can't believe I missed it. -- Sophorica, sucking on a lollipop, 11:17:04 02/06/03 Thu

Actually, I always recommend sacrificing one's roommates just on the principle of the matter.

Scares the neighbors. Sacrificing subway riders is so much more random and harder to track down the source. The MTA converted my F train to a G train, again! They are so deserving.

[> [> [> Re: Great Pain AND Groping? Can't believe I missed it -- Haecceitas, 00:15:33 02/07/03 Fri

Figures that the (Mandarin word for %#@!*@$%#!)ethernet connection works when I have something snarky to say, but gets all "Nope. Not gonna do it." when I want to post on something, you know, a little less entrail-centric.

Just lost a three-pager on the new ep--which I ended up with on tape as the second roommate skedaddled--and just don't feel like typing it all over again

A sign that it should be entrails all 'round for awhile?

[> Re: "The Killer in Me": The Super-Evil Review -- vh, 05:44:54 02/06/03 Thu

"Furthermore, how could anyone not have hugged him? I mean, really: you've got a man like that available for the hugging, there's no reason not to treat yourself to a cuddle."

I wondered about that myself. After all, the last time he showed up, they were all over him . . .

[> Answers to burning questions -- Saguaro Stalker, 06:40:43 02/06/03 Thu

So what took Robson so long? - He was waiting for the basketball game to be over (Rahael, you must be a saint. Sorry, d'Herblay!)

And how'd Giles survive? - The axe bounced off that bullit-proof tweed.

Furthermore, how could anyone not have hugged him? I mean, really: you've got a man like that available for the hugging, there's no reason not to treat yourself to a cuddle. - Would you hug somebody who arrived unannounced at your doorstep with a bunch of strange women and asked you to put them up for say... till the next apocalypse blows over?

What will the final disposition of Spike's chip be? - I vote for serving it with chunky salsa.

Why didn't they let us see Molly get locked in the trunk? I'd have paid good money, myself. - But, then we'd spoil the surprise that the other one, what's-her-name the younger latina was locked in the trunk weeks ago by Kennedy for making goo-goo eyes at Willow. Don't worry she's still alive... Slayer instincts and all that.

Did Dawn do as Giles asked and clonk Vi over the head with her notebook? If not, she needs a spanking. Dawn, not Vi. Though Vi could probably use one, too. - Hey, if they'd have thought to spank Giles while they were at it, they could have saved Xander, Anya, Dawn, and Andrew the trip. How about those in-the-car games? And we were worried Andrew wasn't evil anymore.

[> Re: "The Killer in Me": The Super-Evil Review -- Sophomorica, chewing on Honori's apron strings, 07:48:26 02/06/03 Thu

I adored the Willow/Warren thing. Actually would have welcomed the permanent return of Warren. Him and Kennedye macking was so HOT. But I digress, It is about time that Willow begins to become in touch with the "killer" in herself - her own capacity for evil - become comfortable with it. I see Sophie struggle with her own capacity for doing evil. Now that I hacked her Ars account, he he, the fun can really begin! (The have so many rules over there, one cannot resist wreaking havock!). But again I digress, I agree Willow could dress better. And I would love to see Faith return!!!! And the touching of Giles was hilarious, though dispointing as you already pointed out.

[> O Mighty Honorificus, I tremble before your greatness... -- RobAndMurder, 07:50:25 02/06/03 Thu

And though your entire review was magnanimous, as are you, Divine One, I would humbly like to submit that there might be one detail you overlooked. I can't believe you would just let that lazy ol' bag of bones Giles off so easily for not being to pick up his own darn notebook and slap Vi around himself. Usually your fury knows no limits. Tell me you didn't at least attempt to teleport yourself into the TV, tie up Giles and test the corporeal thing for yourself. You could have had such delicious fun with whips and chains. And he deserves it, just for not being the First Evil! What is he, depressed? Feh! Had enough of that with the yearlong sob-and-bitchfest that was Season Six.

Although there is now the delightful possibility that Buffy will de-chip Spike. He still is mighty weak, and I'm sure with not too much coaxing you could lure him over to the Dark Side. And please take Anya with him. She's such a sweet gal. She just flipped out, because she hadn't done carnage in a long time. It could happen to the best of us. I myself remember feeling a twinge of guilt before slaughtering the entirety of that little village in Ireland about 200 years back with my bare hands (and claws). Believe me, it passed quickly, and who could be glum for too long with all those shiny blood and guts everywhere?

Your high points this week:

"Kennedy tries to seduce Willow, the Scoobies try to find out if Giles is touchable, and Buffy and Spike try to find out why his chip is going all wonky. The first and the third involve great pain. The second involves groping."

"Kennedy macking on Willow. You know, I like forthrightness in a girl (or guy--unlike some people, I keep my options open), but please, aim higher! If you're wanting to get yourself a ride, Kennedy, there's a scorchingly sexy Slayer in jail no doubt just *dying* for a conjugal visit."

"If you ever find yourself getting turned into the man (or one of the men) you flayed and incinerated, blame it on the last seductive little tart you kissed."

Not only are you terrifying in your greatness...you're hilarious! :o)

RobAndMurder

[> [> If I may humbly submit, RobandMurder... -- Lebasi, 21:17:54 02/06/03 Thu

And please take Anya with him. She's such a sweet gal. She just flipped out, because she hadn't done carnage in a long time.

Anya's breaking point is not going to be a lack of carnage, but a lack of sex.

They've already established that nobody's interested in giving that ex-demon little goody two-shoes a roll in the hay for anything. Since she was practically a nympho for two years before returning to her evil calling, she's gotta start 'cracking from the lacking.' If you know what I mean.

What it might take to put her on the carnage path again would be for her to find that all those S(h)ITs have taken all of her AA batteries and used them up in their walkmans. (If you don't know what I mean, you are too young...)

[> [> [> Heh heh, I know what you mean. -- RobAndMurder (Master of Innuendo...and Evil Chuckling), 09:23:49 02/07/03 Fri

[> "The Killer in Me": The Evil Interior Design Review -- Pushy Queen of Slut Town, 14:29:35 02/06/03 Thu

Well done Ye Scourge of Suspenders!

I believe that I will begin chiming in to your reviews with some commentary on the home decor of each episode.

Highlights
The undergound caves of the intiative. Reminded me very much of a decor trend I started during a Valentine's Day Orgy back in the crusades. Rotting demon and human bodies piled haphazardly, various instruments of torture and pain lying about covered in dust and waiting to be discovered, people stumbling blindly in the dark waiting for me to attack... Ahh, memories. Although the initiative caves were a bit minamalistic compared to my famous extravaganza (it could have been improved with the swimming pool full of puss and ooze and the all-you-can-drink cage of helpless maidens), it was a nice effort overall.

The basement of the Summers home looks great with the chains, but don't stop there. Add in an iron maiden, a rack, maybe some rotting heads on pikes and it might be livable.

Lowlights
The Summers house as a whole. Luckily, they spent as little time here as possible. I keep waiting to see how so many young girls will wreak havoc on this place, but it hasn't happened yet. Damn that Xander!

The UC Sunnydale campus. What can I say, I'm always turned off by the scent of young minds being filled with knowedge and that touchy-feely fake magic. At least Amy was there to taint the air with the buttermilk scent of bad intentions.

The Iffy
The gun shop. On one hand, you've got tons of little metal killers. On the other hand, you've got the greasy guy behind the counter.

The bronze. Never quite sure how I feel about this place. Has definite potential for a burnt out shell or command center for evil, but they serve margaritas with little umbrellas.

Sex and Pain
Willow got a little action and it traumatized her. Good, that's how it should be for lesser beings. Kennedy obviously has a lot of experience at this. She might be do-able yet.

Buffy and Spike's non-sexual tension is getting old. C'mon Buffy, at least beat him up a bit so he knows you still find him hot.

Declaration
I, the Pushy Queen of Slut Town, and sovereign over all things sadomasochistic, do hereby confer upon Drew Z. Greenberg, writer of "The Killer in Me," the title Keeper of the Rotting Demon Bodies and Lesbidar with all rights and priveleges for life.

[> [> What a splendid addition! -- Honorificus (The Ultimate In Good Taste), 15:28:18 02/06/03 Thu

Queen, dear (or do you prefer "Pushy"?), what a fabulous idea! Your views will be most welcome. I completely agree on all counts--well, except that I'm rather fond of the Summers' couch. It's all squishy and sleepable. Other than that, though, I rather agree with the entity that redecorated in in CwDP. My time is extremely valuable, and Mordor knows it's hard enough to whip the minions into typing up just fashion reviews. Your addition will be quite welcome. Really: you can never have too many evil points of view. (Unless, of course, they contradict mine, but that's another diatribe altogether.)

Buffy and Spike's non-sexual tension is getting old. C'mon Buffy, at least beat him up a bit so he knows you still find him hot.

So very right, dearest. Really. After all he's done for her, she can't even do him this simple favor? Little ingrate!

[> [> [> Re: What a splendid addition! -- PQoST (The Ultimate in Tasting Good), 17:51:07 02/06/03 Thu

My minions call me WhoreBitch. But I'll respond to most term of reverence except "Queenie-poo."

Oh, but I must go. My alter ego is attempting to place a horrid picture of his family on the wall of my cave. Last week I caught him installing white carpetting and a plush off-white couch. My demons were terrified to get entrails on them.

[> [> Slut Town's "Cribs" - I'll tune in... -- MagicBone, 21:23:19 02/06/03 Thu

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