December 2002 posts

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dream wierdness inspired by 7.10 -- leslie, 18:06:05 12/18/02 Wed

Last night, I had a tape-loop dream--the kind where the same thing--the same thought, really, divorced from imagery--keeps repeating over and over and over:

"If they were going to put a chip in Spike's head, why didn't they make it the kind where you can hit some kind of little button and it will beep so you can find him?"

Over and over and over and over.

I won't be around much for a while, because while I was dreaming all of this, my dad died.

[> Condolences -- Dochawk, 18:16:21 12/18/02 Wed

I'm very sorry to hear that. Our thoughts are with you.

A

[> Re: thoughts on death, and condolences. -- David Frisby, 18:56:01 12/18/02 Wed

???

our cultural institutions control and repress (in many ways) the instinctual violence of our human nature (acquired over long periods of history), but we still always find secret outlets for them to release and express themselves ...

Freud articulated this thought in his _Civilization and its Discontents_ and then in his _Future of an Illusion_ pointed to religion (the "illusion") as the main form of release, which as such, indeed as a "future" as long as civilization continues ...

Death is one of the fundamental aspects of existence, and leads to some notion of "heaven" -- including perhaps even Nietzsche's latest form, his eternal return and recurrence ...

These thoughts are intended only as food for thought during your time of grief. My belief is that at death one becomes all that one has been ...

And as Tara told Dawn, when a loved one dies we make a place in our heart for them so they will stay with us forever ...

Take care Leslie.

[> Re: dream wierdness inspired by 7.10 -- luna, 19:57:36 12/18/02 Wed

Losing a parent is so very hard. That may be one of the reasons that Buffy works for so many of us--her grief at her own losses seems so real.

In the years since my father and then my mother died, I've also, as David says, come to believe that they do live on as a part of you. But that may be hard to find at first--I hope you'll find it soon.

[> [> And I can't say anything any better than that, because it's true. My condolences. -- OnM, 06:00:20 12/19/02 Thu

When you feel like coming back, we'll be here for you. Know that you are not alone.

Peace.

-- OnM

[> Re: Really sorry to hear that. -- curious, 20:14:09 12/18/02 Wed

You never know what to say when someone looses a loved one. Condolences sounds awkward and perhaps not even genuine offered to strangers. I don't know you Leslie but I didn't want to leave here tonight after reading this without saying, "I'm truly sorry" and hope that in time you will remember him with a smile and know that he's in a better place.

[> Leslie, I'm so sorry for your lose. Take care. -- Deb, 20:36:42 12/18/02 Wed

[> sorry to hear it, leslie -- anom, 22:25:03 12/18/02 Wed

Last week was 5 years since my father died. It's hard, no matter what the relationship was like. I hope you find the inner strength & can share strength & comforting with your family & friends to help you through a painful time.

[> My thoughts are with you. -- tubbyk, 00:41:24 12/19/02 Thu

[> I'm so sorry, Leslie -- Etrangere, 02:11:18 12/19/02 Thu

[> Morning hardens on the wall -- Rahael, 02:29:03 12/19/02 Thu

The Going
Thomas Hardy

Why did you give no hint that night
That quickly after the morrow's dawn,
And calmly, as if indifferent quite,
You would close your term here, up and be gone
Where I could not follow
With wing of swallow
To gain one glimpse of you ever anon!

Never to bid good-bye
Or lip me the softest call,
Or utter a wish for a word, while I
Saw morning harden upon the wall,
Unmoved, unknowing
That your great going
Had place that moment, and altered all.

Why do you make me leave the house
And think for a breath it is you I see
At the end of the alley of bending boughs
Where so often at dusk you used to be;
Till in darkening dankness
The yawning blankness
Of the perspective sickens me

.................

Well, well! All's past amend,
Unchangeable. It must go.
I seem but a dead man held on end
To sink down soon. . . . O you could not know
That such swift fleeing
No soul foreseeing--
Not even I--would undo me so

It must be a heartbreakingt time for you Leslie. Keep well.

[> Re: dream wierdness inspired by 7.10 -- Caroline, 06:57:54 12/19/02 Thu

My condolences, I am so sorry for your loss. Just know that we are keeping you in our thoughts.

[> I'm so sorry. Take good care. -- Vickie, 07:46:58 12/19/02 Thu

[> So sorry, leslie. I'll be thinking of you. -- ponygirl, 09:27:16 12/19/02 Thu

[> I'm sorry for your loss. -- Isabel, 11:33:00 12/19/02 Thu

My thoughts are with you and your family.

[> My sympathies, leslie. -- Ixchel, 12:46:51 12/19/02 Thu

[> Condolences -- JM, 14:03:32 12/19/02 Thu

[> So sorry. Our condolences. -- Sophie and Sophomorica, 14:54:05 12/19/02 Thu

[> I'm so sorry for your loss, Leslie. Thinking of you... -- Wisewoman, 17:57:08 12/19/02 Thu

[> Sorry to hear of such sad events at this season. Thinking of you. -- KdS, 04:00:37 12/20/02 Fri

[> Sympathy -- verdantheart, 06:42:48 12/20/02 Fri

I am so sorry to hear of your loss! My father died seven years ago and I feel strangely even closer to him now. One strange thing is that I'm now inexplicably much better at anagrams than I was before he died--something he was always quite good at.

I have always had a strange innate sense that we continue though; it's not even a question. It's a belief that is part of me. Doubt is not possible. I would have to die myself before I could doubt. So, for me, grief is not so terrible a thing, for those whom I love who've passed on are still ever with me; I just miss seeing and talking with them. It's so temporary a thing. If only I could share this gift with you, I would.

I hope that this has helped and not somehow made you sadder!

vh

[> Re: dream wierdness inspired by 7.10 -- leslie, 10:54:04 12/20/02 Fri

Thanks to everyone for their condolences, both here and those of you who have written me directly. I really appreciate it.

[> I'm so sorry, leslie! All our thoughts are with you. -- Dyna, 12:24:46 12/20/02 Fri

[> Deepest sympathies. -- dream of the consortium, 13:25:45 12/20/02 Fri

[> [> Re: My deepest sympathies as well, Leslie -- Brian, 20:18:21 12/21/02 Sat

[> Bit late...but my deepest sympathy leslie -- shadowkat, 14:18:31 12/20/02 Fri

Also get the dream wierdness, having some of that myself.
Just wish I could remember what Spike said better - it seemed awfully important last night.

(Haven't been able to post much - since Wed, posting from my parents home ...so just a brief note to express, my condolences and sympathy and for some reason - my access to the board from this computer is easier than my access to my email - I blame aol demons (my email is msn.))

Best SK

[> Re: dream wierdness inspired by 7.10 -- cougar, 21:47:13 12/21/02 Sat

my father died just a year ago and one of the things I found frightening afterwards was the uncertainty of the shifting family relations left by the vacuum. It was something I hadn't considered much, and people never seem to talk about it. I know from your posts that you have an awful lot of analytical perception and hope this will be a source of strength and clarity for you over the next year. My thoughts are with you.

[> Deepest Sympathies -- Celebaelin, 00:47:07 12/22/02 Sun

Bereavements in my family and friends of family have become alarmingly common recently. People of my parents generation and that preceeding for the most part, the early years of the 21st century are taking their toll widely I fear.

Once again deepest sympathies.

[> Words fail -- Haecceity, 01:10:35 12/22/02 Sun

when you wish they had the power to convey the human need to express *anything* that could help another in the face of their loss.

sending my sympathy,

---Haecceity

Wild, wild speculation w/o spoilers except BoTN -- Etrangere, 05:42:03 12/19/02 Thu

I usually don't do speculation but since last ep bored me i had to makes work my little brain in another way than analyse ;)

So... you're the First Evil, but some day you get tired of it. Who wouldn't ? I mean, you get blamed for everything bad that happens on Earth even though it's depressing how humanity is more ingeneous than any kind of demons in doing cruel and twisted stuff. Really, must be annoying when Evil is your vocation that those rank amateurs mortals overdo you every day... Last time it wasn't even some kind of dictator or serial killer, it was that sweet girl Rosenberg who decided she wanted to put an end to this sorry world. Don't anyone got any respect anymore ? It's not like copyright existed when you invented Evil.
So you're fed up, and you want to end the world, stop that whole balancing the scale gig, 'cause ofcourse you're a part of everything, of every lives, of every thoughs. Laws of paradox, opposite creates each other and all.
Since the Sandman doesn't seem to be around so you can give him the key to evilland, you turn to some kind of equivalent... the Slayer.
The Slayer is the only one powerful enough.
The Slayer is the only one powerful enough to kill Evil and thus end the world, 'cause there's no worlds without evil and thus end your whole problem.
And it's so perverse, to make her fight you so as to do your own job, you know ? Hey you're still the First Evil. You gonna teach 'em.
You're still the First Evil.

[> Hey Ete! Haven't seen your name on the board in a while! -- ponygirl, 09:23:33 12/19/02 Thu

I totally agree-- well except about the bored to tears, I enjoyed BOtN, not stellar by any stretch but solid -- Buffy is being manipulated. After all why didn't the uberVamp finish her off? The FE's speech in Lessons seems especially telling - "it's not about right and wrong, it's about power." Buffy has the power but I think she's going to be using it in the wrong fight, rather than using it to acknowledge, accept and control the evil within, she's going to try and destroy all the outward manifestations of badness. She spoke about wanting to see the First's true face, I have a feeling when she does it will be her own. When that happens she's going to have decide between killing and embracing her own nature.

[> Comment se dit "welcome back - or good to see you again" en Francais, s'il vous plaÓt? -- Sophomorica, lechÈ sur lollipop, 15:01:35 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> can't think of a equivalent expression, really -- Etrangere, 17:48:37 12/19/02 Thu

But thanks ^_^

I just needed to take a small break.

Newbies by Request (Bring on the Night Spoilers) - WAY future speculation. -- Darby, 06:38:42 12/19/02 Thu

So Giles grabbed the leftover Slayers in the neighborhood (their Watchers apparently couldn't get out of their day jobs, but it would've been cute to have them in the background and never let them speak) and hauled them to Sunnydale. He also mentioned that other survivors were on their way there. (Can we say "Cannon fodder," boys and girls?) So the audition for the spin-off heroine continues, but here are a few Slayer candidates I'd like to see...

- An Australian aborigine and a girl from Hong Kong. Both should be familiar with the culture clashes inherent to being active in Sunnydale, have some interesting cultural backgrounds of their own, plus the Hong Kong Slayerette should have some training by movie-mayhem types, plus you know the stunt coordinators have been dying to do more Crouching Tiger stuff (after flying across a room, she could say, "That's easier with the wire harness.") Could Ziyi Zhang play 15?

- A Japanese Slayerette trained in Western martial arts - she fights vamps with Muhammed Ali moves. For, y'know, the irony.

- A Russian, because Pavel Chekov was such a hoot. Well, maybe not...

- A Sri Lankan candidate. Rahael, can you play 15 and learn a spinning back kick?

- Now we know we're getting at least one American potential. Where should they be from, and what sort of personality quirks should they have?

- Darby, looking to move discussion in another direction.

[> Loves it ! -- Ete, 06:56:01 12/19/02 Thu

You know that's another one of the things that choked me in BotN : we're used to have Slayers from all kind of minorities, so as to remind us that there's a whole world around, you know, the Unites States, and suddenly the SiW we got are three white brittish girl, disapointing. What, that whole Otherness of the Slayer doesn't work anymore ?

I absolutly lovvve the idea of the japanese boxer girl ! :)

[> Just saw "Rabbit Proof Fence"... -- cjl, 07:00:06 12/19/02 Thu

And the aboriginal Potential Slayer would be WAY cool.

I can think of a half-dozen plotlines already....

[> You are forgetting Capoeira -- neaux, 07:38:28 12/19/02 Thu

You cant have a show with fighting without Capoeira.

Only the Strong was the movie of 1993!! and Mark Decossas is GOD!

[> A Welsh one, of course... -- Marie, 07:51:05 12/19/02 Thu

...she'd be small, dark, sly... fond of altering place-names to her own language and burning holiday cottages... er, only those belonging to demons, naturally!

Marie

[> [> she'd have a glowing bauble, talk incessently, and call Xander an assistant pig keeper. -- Rochefort, 21:10:14 12/19/02 Thu

[> You want to know what I think we should have? -- Deeva, 08:30:43 12/19/02 Thu

No? Well, I'll tell you anyways.

I think a great if not perfect potential would be an Asian chick (No, I'm not biased. Why do you ask?) who is trained in Jeet Kun Do and Krav Maga. And when she talks she's like from Jersey. Some what Tony Soprano-ish. You know cause we've had the whole California girl thing for 7 years, it'd be a cool flipside. We sorta almost had that with Faith but it felt more like an urban-down-and-dirty-city girl vibe and not "Goodfellas".

Ahh...that would be a hoot!

[> [> And in any case, wouldn't Krav Maga be a great character name? -- Darby, 08:43:12 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> Indeed it would. Better than the stringing together consonants. -- deeva, 08:56:25 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> Need a Southern girl! -- luna, 12:57:14 12/19/02 Thu

Who is not Scarlet O'Hara, but more like ...hmm, well, the heroine of Fried Green Tomatoes?

[> [> [> Daisy Duke the Vampire Slayer? :-) -- Rattletrap, 19:26:24 12/21/02 Sat

[> [> Our Devil -- S. S. in NJ, 11:18:23 12/22/02 Sun

A slayer from New Jersey would be great...then they could do an episode (or an episode arc) that could have the slayer go home for a visit and our Jersey Devil be the Big Bad....:)

But then again, what would that do to our hockey team? :)

[> Umm...Darb? -- Wisewoman, 09:32:21 12/19/02 Thu

Y'know, the way your message posted, I actually thought at first you were suggesting yourself as a potential slayer candidate! LOL!!
;o)

[> [> Re: Umm...Darb? -- Darby, 10:22:20 12/19/02 Thu

Wow! That'd be quite the succession order to ever reach me - I somehow suspect that the US Presidential succession would reach me before the Slayer Power...

And, um, I'd flunk the physical...unless they want to to...er..."convert"...

[> How about a 15-year-old with a diver's permit? -- Deb, 14:56:16 12/19/02 Thu

Just load the car with UVamps and in half-an-hour they'll have flung themselves from the car into the sunlight to escape the terror that just never stops.

[> [> Re: How about a 15-year-old with a diver's permit? -- Wisewoman, 16:50:11 12/19/02 Thu

Is that so she can get the underwater vamps?

;o) Ho-Ho-Ho!

[> [> [> And I thought my UVamps was so clever! ; ) Smarty Pants. lol -- Deb, 17:04:12 12/19/02 Thu

[> South American, of course -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:43:01 12/19/02 Thu

If we get a South American Slayer canidate, we'll have seen one from every continent (I don't know why, but I got the impression that the potential-Slayer who didn't get killed or inadvertantly hit on Willow was Australian rather than British. Don't know why). I was thinking Mexican before, but that seems to be sort of a Californian cliche.

[> [> She can be Neaux's Capoeira heroine -- luna, 17:44:21 12/19/02 Thu

[> How about an English girl who isn't white and upper class? -- KdS, 06:32:40 12/20/02 Fri

And before anyone gets nitpicky, I mean "not upper-class-but-pretending-to-be-a-Big-Bad-Cockney-thug" as well.

[> [> Not to offend anyone.... -- Helen, 06:59:08 12/20/02 Fri

but most Americans (or to be less contencious - most American s who write TV shows with English characters in them) seem to think that Mrs Post or Lydia the junior Watcher is how all English people talk (unless they talk like Spike). On various trips to the US, my accent (a perfectly normal, non regional dialect Southern English accent, not at posh) has been mistaken for:
French
Australian
New Zealander
German
Canadian

[> [> [> Re: Not to offend anyone.... -- deeva, 08:38:27 12/20/02 Fri

No offense taken. I don't speak for all Americans but I think it has a lot to do with the individual doing the identifying. It's all relative. I'm a California girl myself and I have had some people (other Americans) ask about my accent. The best I can figure is that I had a favorite aunt, who was raised in London. I spent a lot of time around her and picked up her mannerisms. It pops out on ocassion, I suppose. So it's not because Americans in general are ignorant on accents and such. I think it's what you are exposed to.

[> [> [> It works both ways -- Sophist, 08:46:02 12/20/02 Fri

I was once on a train in Scotland and was talking to my brother. A nice woman next to us leaned over and said, "Excuse me, are you French?"

[> [> [> [> I've got a similar story -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:50:35 12/20/02 Fri

I was raised in St. Paul, Minnesota (do most English people know the names of American states? If not, that's one of the ones in the middle and near Canada). However, I'm now living about an hour's car ride south of there, but I'm still within the state. However, on several occasions, I've been asked if I'm either British or Canadian. I'm in the SAME! FRICKIN! STATE! and my accent throws people off. Of course, it doesn't help that, since I've started watching Buffy, the phrase "bloody hell" has slipped into my vocabulary a lot more.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I've got a similar story -- d'Herblay, 16:42:46 12/20/02 Fri

I can beat that for micro-regional accent difference. I grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland. One summer, I was enrolled in daycamp in Cleveland Heights, the suburb adjacent to the north. Well, several times that summer, people assumed from my accent that I was English! This in a community whose border is across the street from my house!

So, apparently, speech inflections can be quite localized. Either that, or it had something to do with the fact that my mother spoke with a deep North Carolina drawl, my father's voice bore the faint marks of his Washington, D.C., upbringing, I had had a speech impediment until the age of seven which I had worked to overcome, I learned most of my diction from James Bond movies anyway, and my vocabulary was such that even if people could understand what words I was saying, no one could understand a word I was saying. Umm, yeah, micro-regional differences.

Now, when I leave the US, people tend to assume that I'm Dutch or German. I think it has to do more with the hair than the voice, though. Once, a little old lady asked me for directions on the Bismarckstrasse in Berlin. She seemed taken quite aback when I replied that I don't speak German.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Another odd accent -- Sara, not a Southern Belle, 19:33:51 12/20/02 Fri

I grew up on Long Island in New York State with two parents from Brooklyn and yet was often asked if I came from the South. I used to say that I hadn't been any further South than Jones Beach (about 15 minutes from my home) and yet it was a common comment. It did kind of work for me when we were living Memphis - I fit right in.

Sara, saying how are y'all doing!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> It definately takes an ear -- Tyreseus, 19:56:22 12/20/02 Fri

During a college acting class, we had an assignment to study an accent for about 2 weeks, then go somewhere we wouldn't be recognized and try to pass it off all night long.

Most people in my class went with something easier for West Coast American - such as "TV British" or "American Southern" or "French American."

Since I was preparing for a role in a melodrama where I played a characters similar to Boris (of Boris and Natasha in the "Rocky and Bullwinkle" cartoon) I did my very best to learn a Russina accent. I had key words to refer to when I felt it slipping, listened to dialect tapes for hours every night... really tried to do my very best at capturing the gutturals, the cadences, etc. I even learned a few Russian phrases to cover if someone asked me to "say something in Russian."

So, I head out to this little bar with a friend (who was along for moral support and a good cover story - I'm from St. Petersberg and visiting a pen pal). All night long, I was asked if I was German, Transylvanian (actually, they asked me if I was from the country with the vampires), of Jewish heritage, and even Spanish. My cover was blown, though, when someone whose parents had been raised in a town near St. Petersburg heard me, thought I sounded suspicious, and started asking questions I couldn't answer.

On the plus side, the guy who figured me out coached me on my accent until I was ready for the show.

[> [> [> Accent deafness -- matching mole, 14:08:12 12/20/02 Fri

In a bar in Rodeo, N.M. (about 2 miles east of Arizona and 50 miles north of Mexico) I once overheard a conversation between two Britons and a local. One woman was from north Wales and had an accent that to me sounded distinctively Liverpudlian. The other woman was from London and sounded (again to my relatively uninformed ears) vaguely cockney. Despite their attempts to convince him otherwise the New Mexican insisted that their accents sounded exactly the same.

I can't really talk though. I shared an office with a woman from New Zealand for two years. I gravely insulted her by saying that I couldn't distinguish her accent from an Australian accent (she had a low opinion of Australia generally, ironically she lives in Sydney now). I still can't - New Zealanders still sound exactly like Australians to me although there must be some difference I'm not picking up on.

[> [> [> [> Re: Accent deafness -- Caroline, 14:32:22 12/20/02 Fri

It's the same with trying to latch on to the differnce in Canadian and American accents. I've learnt to look for the slight difference in words such as 'out' and 'about' as well as the use of 'eh' (which is also used in other commonwealth countries). Being Australian, I can spot the the kiwi accent a mile off. In kiwi, the vowels are all cut off. Instead of 'six', kiwis say 'sex' or 'sux' (and much hilarity ensues). I'm sure that the kiwis think that Aussies unnecessarily elongate their vowels.

Have you ever noticed that the closer the accents, the greater the hatred?

[> [> [> [> [> How to spot a..... -- luna, 09:41:46 12/21/02 Sat

Some Americans from Virginia pronounce "about" and "house" just as many Canadians do--and drop their r's like some British. But American southerners don't insert an R between two vowels as you'll hear with some speakers from Massachusetts and England (I saw (r) a cat, etc.)

[> [> [> [> Re: Accent deafness -- Marie, 02:24:45 12/23/02 Mon

One woman was from north Wales and had an accent that to me sounded distinctively Liverpudlian.

I'm from north Wales, and get mistaken all the time for a Liverpudlian! Went with a group of friends to visit some other friends in south Wales (as different an accent as Brooklyn and Alabama!) and a man asked where we were from. When he was told, he turned to me and asked me where I was from - "Liverpool?"!!

Another time, a friend and I were shopping in Manchester (only a couple of hours away from north Wales), and were conversing in English, and a shop girl asked us "Are you foreign?" because we speak very fast.

It's nice to see, though, that on this board posters use the terms 'British' and 'UK', rather than 'English' and 'England', which we hear very often and can be extremely annoying if you're from Wales, Ireland or Scotland.

Marie

[> [> [> And here's what they think I am -- luna, 09:36:58 12/21/02 Sat

I was born and raised in South Carolina, but I don't sound like the Southern accents in movies and TV. Out of the South, I've been taken for German, Australian, and British; but worse, even IN THE SOUTH sometimes people ask where I'm from.

[> [> [> [> Warning, slight snobbishness within -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:48:38 12/21/02 Sat

Not meaning to be snobby, but this board is the sort of place that naturally attracts people who are a little smarter than the average population. Maybe the reason so many of us have cases of mistaken accent is that reading a lot and having a slightly larger vocabulary affects the way you talk.

[> [> [> [> [> I don't think smarter, just with alternative interests! -- Caroline (more eccentric than snobby)., 17:36:35 12/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I'll go along with that, anything to be considered smart! -- Helen, 00:58:56 12/23/02 Mon

[> Re: Newbies by Request (Bring on the Night Spoilers) - WAY future speculation. -- Mystery, 09:47:47 12/20/02 Fri

I'm not so much concerned with the ethnicity as much as I am wanting to see a Slayer who is skilled in drunken style! I love drunken style...

[> Asian British Slayer-in-training -- Rahael, 10:02:02 12/20/02 Fri

There was supposed to be one, or so I hear. Unfortunately her work permit didn't come through, so that was nixed.

That would have been delightful! (and totally over encouraged my slayer identification complex).

I guess I could look fifteen. I still look exactly as I did when I was a teenager. Except for the being underweight thing. Though I understand that helps when you get cast by ME, hehe.

Unfortunately, I cannot imagine anyone clumsier or more unco-ordinated than me. Watching me trying to play tennis is funny. I stick out my racket, and I always miss the ball. That kind of spoils the fantasy of doing fancy martial arts moves. I have been known to have problems just walking from a to b.

[> [> Re: Asian British Slayer-in-training -- Caroline, 11:05:57 12/20/02 Fri

I don't see why lack of coordination should be a problem, Rah. The fights are not real and SMG runs like a girl anyway. I say submit your pic to ME's casting director and live the fantasy!

[> [> [> Re: Asian British Slayer-in-training -- aliera, 14:25:26 12/20/02 Fri

I concur and look at early SMG and Dawn...it seemed as if that endearing coltishness (I absolutely refuse to say clumsy) was considered a job requirement...go for it.

[> [> [> [> LOL -- Rahael, 10:26:12 12/22/02 Sun

thanks guys, much needed laughter.

[> [> [> [> [> Rahael hired as SIT; BtVS immediately transformed.... -- cjl, 12:12:17 12/23/02 Mon

(The Summers living room, some time between episodes 10 and 11. Giles, Buffy, Willow and Xander and a few of the SITs--including a new SIT, Rahael--are discussing strategy.)

GILES: I'm afraid it's hopeless. Anya and I have researched the Codex for any mention of the First Evil, and there doesn't seem to be a weakness, or for that matter, any direct confrontations we can use as a reference point.

BUFFY: We're not going to give up. We've got to keep hitting it, hitting its minions, and we'll find something we can use against it. We have to.

WILLOW: Buffy, not that I want to stop the charge of the Light Brigade, because, you know, "yay, battling evil"--but you need your rest, and we're not going to get anywhere if you kinda doze off in the middle of the Apocalypse...

XANDER: She's right, Buffy, you've been going four days straight now, and maybe you'll think a little clearer after you've had some sleep.

BUFFY: What is it with you guys and "nappy time"? We're not going to get anything done with our eyes closed. We have too much work to do! We have to find out what makes this thing tick and DESTROY it.

RAHAEL: I think that's shortsighted.

BUFFY: Excuse me?

RAHAEL: I think you're taking the wrong approach.

BUFFY: And did I ask your opinion?

RAHAEL: You may not have asked for it, but given the situation, I'm going to give it, anyway. Your friends are right--you're not thinking clearly here. The First Evil is something that pre-dates any other manifestation of evil in existence. It is, in fact, that Primal Evil--the evil that lives in all of us and therefore, cannot be defeated.

BUFFY: But--

RAHAEL: Not finished. Your plan to "destroy" the First Evil may be exactly what the First Evil wants. By erasing one half of the eternal balance of good and evil, you would throw the universe into chaos, obliterating all of creation.

GILES: My god, that's brilliant.

BUFFY: So...what am I supposed to do?

RAHAEL: Do what you did four years ago. Kick the ass of the First Evil's minions, then rely on the goodness of your own heart and that your friends to counteract its presence on this plane of existence. You'll send it right back into its hole for another eon or two.

XANDER: Amazing. Would your middle name be Mary Sue, by any chance?

RAHAEL: It's not my fanfic, Xander. Talk to the guy typing...

[> [> [> [> [> [> LOLOL -- Rahael, 12:32:25 12/23/02 Mon

CJL that's priceless! That's exactly how it happens in my head too! Y'know, only with more poetry quotation.

Now I have to go think of my outfit......

WE HAVE SEEN THE FIRST GOOD AND IT IS.........Spoilers & Spec 7.10 & Beyond -- Angelina, 09:21:21 12/19/02 Thu

THE FIRST ìGOODî V. THE FIRST ìEVILî

This board has spent hours talking about the FE because IT has been identified and we have seen it in its many different guises. However folks, we have also seen the FIRST GOOD, but as far as I can see, no one has brought this up yet. Firstly, let us say that it stands to reason, in all of the universe (both real and the Buffyverse) that if there is Evil, there also must be Good. It is the Ying and Yang of the ages since time immemorial. The FE is doing all it possibly can to announce its presence on Earth/Sunnydale. It has tried to tempting Willow and Spike and been thwarted every time. It is simply not believed. It failed utterly with Spike, despite the torture, and that has pissed it off terribly. Why did it fail with Spike, because Buffy believed in him, believed in his ability and desire to be ìgoodî. OK, we all know the FE is in Sunnydale. But what about the First Good, or FG. The Bible tells us and most of us have always believed that Good (God) came first. God created Heaven and Earth. Evil was cast out of Paradise into Hell for becoming greedy, and for being jealous of Godís love for his creations, humans. So, began the battle of the ages between Good and Evil. So far the FE has presented itself as all ITS past disciples, the Master, Glory, Adam, the Mayor. Now, if you want to believe what ME is trying to led us to believe, that Giles is now dead and being manipulated by the FE, then Evil has taken one of the Good Guys. I donít believe this for one second. I donít know what the story is with Giles right now, but I am sure it will come to pass that he is alive, maybe not WELL. But very much alive. (Besides, re-watch the Kitchen Scene of BOTN, Giles is sitting on a counter, see Giles PUT HIS HANDS on the counter and LIFT HIMSELF OFF. But that is not the basis of this post. NOW we come to the appearances of the First Good. FG does not need to present itself with all the DRAMA that FE has displayed. FE is a show off and stupid. FG simply needs to be FELT in the heart. FG has been seen several times this season. Once, bathed in a pool of white light before Dawn, as the FE ran itself ragged trying to foil FGís appearance to Dawn. Then FG appeared again to Buffy several times in BOTN. It is JOYCE. Joyce is the vessel of the First Good. Joyce is God's Emissary (Bringer). We all took Joyceís warning to Dawn in CWDP: ìin the end, Buffy will not choose youî as a sign that when push came to shove that Buffy might let Dawn die in the process of the looming Final Battle Between Good and Evil on Earth. But that is not what FG meant. FG, in the form of someone Dawn loves beyond words, was trying to tell Dawn something quite different. Joyce was trying to tell Dawn, that the time will come for Buffy to choose the next Slayer - and Buffy will NOT choose Dawn. For good reason. Dawn will not be ready. FG, as Joyce, is now trying very hard to tell Buffy to sleep, to rest. (as is Giles, BYW) Why is she doing this. Because Buffy gets her best visions in her sleep? Because Buffy must WAKE UP to see that Goodness can only prevail when you are Pure of Heart? That all the fighting and weapons in the universe cannot combat evil without that innate goodness that God gave man, that can be found only in the human heart? I believe that this is the reason for Joyceís appearances. Joyce as the (ìHoly Motherî) of the Slayer (ìSaviorî). This is only my theory of course, but I think is makes some sort of sense. Bring On The Night is my favorite episode to date. So much has been laid on the table for us to ponder. Now we must wait to see how all the pieces will finally fit. And since this is probably the final season of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer as we knew it, I only pray that ME allows this series to end with dignity and grace. If ME kills off Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles or Spike, I am going to really be bitterly disappointed in one of the finest writing efforts in TV history! I want to see Buffy FINALLY lead her normal life. I want to see her walk off into that peaceful sunset and LIVE.

[> I whole heartedly agree with all of that (minus the judeo christian stuff) -- Rochefort, 09:54:10 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> Crazy theory related to above -- maxam, 11:13:47 12/19/02 Thu

perhaps Giles is not entirely corporeal and possibly dead but not the first evil because he is an "angel"
obviously much could be made of this
i am kind of crazy

Snow for Dub...It's working!! -- Wisewoman, 09:43:55 12/19/02 Thu

I don't think many people saw my request in the last Snow thread, so I've pasted it below, but the exciting thing is, for those who did see it, it's working!!

I've been checking Environment Canada predictions daily, and the low is steadily dropping lower in the days preceding Christmas.

But more exciting, this morning the North Shore mountains, which I can see from my kitchen window, are covered in snow down to about 1/3 of their height, for the first time this year! You go, guys! What a team!!

Here's the original request:
Okay all you snow lovers, could you help a poor, deprived West Coaster out?

Any of you who've read Gaiman's American Gods may remember the scene early on where Wednesday asks Shadow to think hard about snow, about a snowstorm specifically, and Shadow does and it starts to snow--well, maybe you could spare a minute or two in the next week to concentrate on some snow for Vancouver for Christmas? Just, y'know, now and then, let the thought of big, white, fluffy flakes falling on my little cottage in East Vancouver float through your mind. What harm could it do? In the unlikely event that we get snowed in, I promise never to reveal the source of the weather.

Even if you don't much want snow in your neighbourhood, you could send some my way. Think of it as a kinda Christmas charity project...Toys for Tots, Snow for Dub, that kinda thing...

I'll be workin' the mojo my own self but if years passed are any indication weather magick is not my forte, eh? It just doesn't make any sense for a Canuck in Canada to have to live through another green Christmas.

Okay, enough with the whining! I promise to give weather reports from this neck of the woods starting on Saturday, December 21 (Yule, Winter Solstice) so you can keep track of whether your weather efforts are bearing fruit, so to speak. And I'll be eternally grateful and in your debt, weather-wise. Thanks!

Season's Greetings
;o) xoxoxoxox

[> Good Yule, WW -- Vickie, 10:56:19 12/19/02 Thu

I know it's a bit early, but happy holiday. Enjoy your snow!

[> Snow on the mountains.... -- Deb, 14:36:59 12/19/02 Thu

It sounds pretty. Do you have one snow-covered mountain to loan us for the remainder of the year? Just place it on the Missouri/Iowa border. If you ever need the sun with a high blue sky or spring thunderstorms that resemble Willow's interaction with the First in BOTN, please feel free to request. I'll owe you.

7.10 and the U.S. Response to Terrorism (or "Rochefort Recants") or (Do/Don't Worry about Giles) -- Rochefort, 09:50:04 12/19/02 Thu

Wow. Did anyone else catch the similarities between 7.10 and the way we've responded to terrorism in the U.S. and G.B.?

To begin with, since when do Big Bads EVER use explosives. I mean if explosives were a way for Big Bads to fight, they could have lined the Summer's house with them a long time ago and just been done with it. I think ME is making one of the most overt political statements I've seen them make so far.

Buffy's response to the beating she took: see if it sounds familiar. "So far we've been waiting for evil to attack us. Now we're going to find every one of them and cut their hearts out one by one. We're going to make evil show its true face, and then we're going to kill it. There's only one thing stronger than (the axis) of evil. And that's us. Now we're an army."

I knew there was a reason that speech sounded so stupid. I blamed Marti... but Dubya is almost always a better scapegoat.

Wow! One of the writers in that "Readings of Buffy" collection that's out talks about the nature of evil in BTVS. It is always aggressive, and the scoobies only respond. Buffy is the protector. She does NOT go out and cut out evil's heart. In fact, when Willow DOES go after Glory, not only is it disasterous but she goes all black and scary. I think this new post terror Buffy is going to be very bad news for the gang. :(

At any rate, why "do we and don't we" have to worry about Giles? I think that IS the real Giles. Which just makes me worry about him more. I'll explain.

Willow does a locater spell. "Where is evil?"

Evil answers. "Right up your nose, Willow darling."

Gile's behavior, as some of you have already noted, isn't really all that un Giles-ish. Its been his tendency on a number of occasions to put everything on Buffy. In OMWF he gets one of those dumb parental impulses to drop his child in the water so it learns how to swim. He admits at the end of season six that leaving her for England after her mother died, and then she died, and she's clinically depressed was probably a bad idea. This was just a crasser portrayal of that Giles behavior.

Buffy's mother says, evil is eveywhere. Its inside all of us. Its inside Dawn and Tara (enjoying torture?! Little Dawny!) Its inside Willow, we already know. We just saw it a bit more graphically. It's inside Buffy when she decides to make an army out of her friends to fight an evil that's everywhere.

And what about Xander? As I've said before, poor Xander is the golden twinkie this year. Like Tara last year, shiny boy is up for a fall. (it's a pity because so many of us have been enjoying seeing Xander capable for a change) As many have speculated, I think there's heavy stuff going on with Xander we don't know about.

But back to the overt political commentary. When we react to evil by becoming evil (say it with me) "You only make me stronger." Willow's nose demon says it best (as nose demons so often do). And getting together an army to fight "evil" is like trying to catch a soul in a butterfly net. Getting evil, the first or otherwise, to show us what it really is so we can kill it... do we expect it to have Osama bin Laden's face when it pops up out of its gopher hole? Or will it be Sadam Hussein's? Or Glory's? Or Adam's? Or Spike's? Or Dru's? Or perhaps old Mr. Smithers from the abandonned amusement park. Bring on the Night, and perhaps season seven in general, is partly Whedon and ME's response to right wing political rhetoric about where evil is and what we do with it. In fact, I think we should make ALL our republican friends watch Bring on the Night before we do any more parading around the world like we're rightous slayers with internal bleeding who think we can squash out "evil," (which is in every country that scares us or has toys we want) by bombing.

Rochefort

p.s. ahem. I take back SOME of the things I said about Marti in terms of this episode. (grumble grumble)

[> Re: 7.10 and the U.S. Response to Terrorism (or "Rochefort Recants") or (Do/Don't Worry about Giles) -- JM, 11:54:43 12/19/02 Thu

Don't deny the parallels. Saw them too. I think I'm going to wait till closer to the end of the season to decide what ME's political statement is. JW may be socially liberal, but he's not morally relativist, his worlds do have very clear cut wrong and right, evil and good, as well as the ambiguity. Perhaps ME will come out in favor of preemptive strike-backs, or perhaps S7 will be a cautionary tale. Either way, I'm sure I'll be fascinated, watching ME TV has made me rethink, or at least deeper think lots of issues. Like, for instance, whether American actors should ever be allowed to do English accents. Or pesant blouses as acceptable attire. (Just kidding, trying to keep it a little light.)

Am fascinated by the whole Giles thing. He could just be in crisis mode though. I thought that the apology in Grave last season was an acknowledgement that his leaving was not just about Buffy and her issues. He's lived through her death twice and he just doesn't have what it takes to do it again, which is an event with a very high probability. Beginning season six, I thought that he was giving hints that he would rather she were still dead than have to face this possibility. He was furious with Willow and not just for the danger and arrogance, but because of what she had accomplished. His line in OMWF, "Wish I could lay your arms down and let you rest at last," sent chills up my spine. He would, in some part of his heart, rather she were dead. He really wasn't in a place to aid her recovery last season. Now here we are again. The no-touch-me, no-emote Giles may very well be real Giles in crash position, trying to hold himself together and keep from bolting in the manner of Annabelle.

[> [> I can dig that... but its not moral relativism. -- Rochefort, 12:07:16 12/19/02 Thu

An emotionally repressed Giles who is torn between wanting his own life, caring deeply for Buffy, and not wanting to feel the pain of losing her. I can see a very poignant scene in which he explains his coldness about her internal bleeding by saying he just cares too much to let himself feel it.

I don't think I said that Joss was a moral relativist. There's no denying that the explosion that killed the council was evil or that the First Evil is ... well... evil. Just that part of the evil that Buffy needs to watch out for is the evil in herself. This has been a consistent theme (Dracula, Restless, etc.) Its not that there is no evil, only good from different perspectives at all. Its just that if we don't gaurd ourselves closely, we add to evil by losing our heads. Also, I think you missed some of my point in the "manifestation" of evil thing. Its not that Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein aren't evil. It's that they aren't EVIL. Like Evil Incarnate. We can't put a face to evil, it's much more complicated than that. So would say Joss methinks. Also, I do think the parallells are an intentional commentary.

[> [> [> related to above-spoilers -- maxam, 12:23:52 12/19/02 Thu

I thought that the speech Buffy made to her "army" at the end was similar in cadence, imagery etc to the one made by "Cassie" at the end of "conversations with dea people" (and as some have pointed out was somewhat reminiscent of how Glory spoke) One easy explanation is that this is the "literary style" of speeches used to conclude buffy. However, when making this speech Buffy was strangely energized, as she was when she was brought back to life after being killed by the master. Buffy has both evil and good within her and perhaps one is only going to come out when she sleeps, the other manifest when she is awake. Depending on whether "Giles" and "Joyce" are evil or good, their inducements to Buffy to get some sleep may fit in with this. Perhaps the speech made by Buffy to rally her "army" to bring on the apocalypse is really the "evil" buffy.

[> [> [> Re: I can dig that... but its not moral relativism. -- JM, 12:50:03 12/19/02 Thu

Sorry I wasn't be clear with my cavilling (is that the right term). I didn't mean that distaste for a preemptive strike, milarist solution was morally relativist, actually most of those who hold the position do so for very moral reasons. I was trying to say that there elements of the Jossverse that are not anathema (or even incompatible) to even the more traditional strains of conservatism: a world with clear, distinct right and wrong is a particularly important factor in most of the differing brands of conservatism. I was also speculating that just because ME's message involves social liberalism (issues such as feminism and positive stance on homosexuality and anti-authoritarianism) doesn't necessarily mean that they can automatically be assumed to support every philosophy on the lefter side of the American political spectrum. That are strains of liberal political thought that posit that all claims of right and wrong are entirely culturally based, and that there are no discernable absolutes. (Which I do think is fascinating and thought provoking.) I wasn't trying to make a value judgement about it, just noting it was an example of a strain of thinking that I find pretty absent in JW's work. (Though it's quite likely that I'm just not perceptive enough to discern it.)

What I was trying to suggest is that perhaps just because BtVS is a progressive show, doesn't axiomatically means it's international politics are anti-interventionist. Perhaps Buffy's St. Crispins Day speach is not benighted.

But it's much more likely that you are on the right track and a frontal attack on evil will bring only grief, or is exactly what the First is trying to provoke. I'll be interested in the outcome either way.

Please don't think that I'm ignoring portions of your post, it's more that I don't think I've the intelligence to necessarily grasp or clearly see all the points you were trying to illustrate. I haven't got the philosophy background to ingest most of what gets discussed on the boards. I just latched onto the part of the post that really interested me.

PS Hope Giles is alive. Guess it could be fun if he were dead though too. I'll just have to hang on for the ride.

[> [> [> [> point well taken. but I'm not buying the 'i'm not smart' routine. :P -- Rochefort, 13:31:38 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> How about, not that deep? : ) -- JM, 13:53:07 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> next you'll be telling me you're emotionally shallow and not ready for a commitment -- Rochefort, 16:12:25 12/19/02 Thu

Do you just want out of this relationship?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Shh. . . Don't tell my hubby! He doesn't know that about me! LOL -- JM, 17:36:43 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> This was brilliant, Rochefort! -- Rob, 16:44:01 12/19/02 Thu

"Its not that Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein aren't evil. It's that they aren't EVIL. Like Evil Incarnate. We can't put a face to evil, it's much more complicated than that."

Wow. You've just unearthed new levels of meaning to this issue of which I hadn't even come close to grazing the surface!

Rob

[> [> [> [> The FE -- Rahael, 04:40:26 12/20/02 Fri

I should point out that the First Evil doesn't have a face either - it takes on that of ordinary human beings.

[> [> [> [> [> Another great point! -- Rob, 08:20:32 12/20/02 Fri

Evil truly does lie in the visage of people. And even more so, the evil can take the form of ANYBODY, even people you love and trust, not just people who you would automatically categorize as enemies.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> You just pointed out the reason I think Benson should have been in CWDP -- Rufus, 20:35:54 12/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> Definitely agree about political implications... -- belle, 20:41:21 12/21/02 Sat

Also, in "Help," I thought it was timely that one of Buffy's students is worried about his brother that just joined the Army--that he might not come back. Joss himself has always claimed to be apolitical, though, I think. Or at least, more interested in "story" than in ideology.

Personally, I think there's a big Judeo-Christian arc to this story as well--"Pride goeth before a fall." What Buffy's suggesting isn't problematic just because it's proactive--after all, if you have an enemy as well-organized and aggressive as the First and its Bringers, it's probably a good idea to have a battle plan. And if she really meant it about looking at their worst fears and weaknesses--being introspectively proactive, as it were--it'd probably be a great idea. The problem comes when she says her goal is to kill the First itself. It's hubristic. Whether Joyce was Joyce (which I think she was) or not, her advice was correct--evil is everywhere. That doesn't mean you let it defeat you, though.

Probably their best tactic at this point would be to become very very *honest* with each other, and with themselves. I think ultimately Joss is a bit of a Gnostic, or a Jungian--"I'd rather be whole than good." Ultimately, the SG are going to have to be able to integrate--not repress, not succumb to--their "dark sides" in order to defeat pure evil. Unfortunately, the inward dive was never any of their strong suits.

[> [> Re: 7.10 and the U.S. Response to Terrorism (or "Rochefort Recants") or (Do/Don't Worry about Giles) -- Yours Truly, 14:41:06 12/19/02 Thu

>>He would, in some part of his heart, rather she were dead
Perhaps it isn't so much dead, as at rest. That she could stop fighting and find rest, whether in this life or another. I don't tihnk it has to be interpreted badly. I hadn't thought of it as him wishing her dead, and I'm not sure he'd think of it quite like that, either.

[> "Nose demon." ROFLMAO! I rarely agree with ya, Rochefort, but for a Marti-hater, you're alright! ;o) -- Rob, 16:40:09 12/19/02 Thu

[> Very good post Roch....(Spoilers from Btvs 7.1-7.10) -- shadowkat, 16:54:45 12/19/02 Thu

I like this idea better than some of the other theories I've seen including my own. I think it's trues - all season long - the point has been continually repeated:

Evil is in all of us, even our hero.
Going after it with guns blazing makes it stronger.

1. Lessons - she fights the vengeance demons, they get stronger - not defeated until she has Xander break a tailsman that raised them

2. Beneath You - she and Spike fight the worm. Fascinating episode. in it we have numerous misleads. It's a case of whose the villain? uh none of the above. Ronnie the Worm - has been turned into a worm by his ex-girlfriend's careless wish to a vengeance demon who is struggling with being a vengeance demon he is stabbed by an new ensouled vampire who is struggling with his identity and good/evil in himself. The vampire even states after stabbing Ronnie: "Good, no Wrong...not hardly helpful..." Then embraces a cross in penance wondering if God and everything good hates him. Buffy picks up stake to kill said vamp, only to stand frozen in shock realizing he's no longer evil and is trying to become better. Dawn wickedly threatens said vamp with fire and torture.

3. Same Time Same Place - the gange thinks Willow is the villain, instead it's a parasite living in a cave, Willow is only in jeopardy out of fear of never being accepted again so conducts an evil spell on herself.

4. Help - Buffy goes all slayer - trying to hunt and defeat Cassie's killer. She believes there's a villain involved.
Not really - just a bunch of juvenile delinquents and a girl with a heart problem. Her fighting skills can't save the girl's life. And the villainous father - just a sad man. The villainous teens? Sad greedy misguided kids who get bitten by the evil they've raised.

5.Selfless - Anya wrecks an evil vengeance spell killing 12 people. She regrets it. Horrified by what she's done. Buffy's solution is to kill her - yet it is in the end the evil D'Hoffryn who provides the best one - aske Anya what she wants - did she regret it? Again we find ourselves scratching our heads - who is the villain? D'Hoffryn, Hallie, Anya, Buffy, Xander, the girl who made the wish, the demon who does what it does? I can't trust what I see says Spike who sees a compassionate Buffy in white (possibly played by FE) and a dark Buffy in black who screams at him to leave the basement from a distance.

6. HIM - who is the villain? The jacket? The girls? The guys who wear it? Buffy tries to kill the principal. Dawn tries to kill a student and herself. Anya robs banks. Willow tries to change a boy into a girl. Spike and Xander steal the evil jacket, a family heirloom. The jacket seems to provide momentary fame and fortune but without lasting results - sort of like cheating on tests. Unearned naturally - there's no meaning. Who is the villain?

7. Conversations with dead people: Dawn has wild time breaking Big Sis's rules before the BB shows up threatening Mom and ruining her house, Buffy discusses her abusive relationship with Spike and her parents abusive relationship and her own dark side with a vampire, who it turns out was sired by Spike. Willow discusses with Cassie the evils of her magic and grief. Spike is siring again and preying on girls. Andrew kills his best friend to be powerful - it doesn't work of course. Who is the villain? Who is truly evil?
Isn't the evil reveal in all four main characters in different ways?

8. Sleeper - Spike discovers he's being used to kill people.
HE comes face to face with the dark side of himself. Anya tries to seduce Spike. Xander leaves Anya alone with spike without a care.

etc...

I think there is a clear theme about how there is evil inside us all and that ending the infinite game is evil. Destroying the balance. I'm not sure about Giles. But my gut tells me you're on to something. Course it helps that I just watched Colin Powell inform us how we need to go to war with Iraq. (sigh) Sorry, I'm not a believer in War, I think, outside of maybe WWII, it hurts more than it helps.

[> [> Re: Very good post Roch....(Spoilers from Btvs 7.1-7.10) -- JM, 17:44:03 12/19/02 Thu

Wow consistent themes, I love these. OK you guys are definitely winning me around to your way of thinking. Would certainly be an interesting counter argument to those who have criticized JW for glorifying violence. And provide a dramatic solution to the continuing escalation of threat each season. I for one am very interested in how this will turn out. Plus I'm really enjoying the ep a lot more know. I wonder if my sister can wait another month for her tapes. Probably not. Sigh! She needs to get her own UPN. The tape handover is my least favorite part of the season. (And I never got Normal Again back.) Gosh, I'm such a grinch.

[> [> [> You can tape Normal Again this week. It's rerunning on Tuesday! -- Rob, 12:08:18 12/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: You can tape Normal Again this week. It's rerunning on Tuesday! -- JM, 19:36:52 12/20/02 Fri

I saw, yay! But I'm going to have to detach my VCR because I won't be here to change the channel on the cable box and won't be able to get 24 and Buffy. Gorram X-mas vacation. Iffen I never post again 'scause I 'lectricuted myself. (Just buzzing from watching two hours of Firefly, can ya tell?)

[> [> [> [> [> No "24" on either the 24th or the 31st -- d'Herblay, 15:23:30 12/21/02 Sat

So you can save the detachment.

[> [> [> [> [> *2* hours of firefly? found *that* out the hard way! -- anom, 22:36:35 12/21/02 Sat

"(Just buzzing from watching two hours of Firefly, can ya tell?)"

Well, no one told *me*! I just set up the VCR as usual for Friday night, & it cut off just as Simon was explaining about how River got that way!

...anyone have a tape of the full 2 hours I could borrow?

[> [> Thanks for drawing out that argument to the whole season. Well done. -- Rochefort, 14:30:35 12/20/02 Fri

[> A dissenting opinion from the "loyal opposition" -- Thomas the Skeptic, 13:38:09 12/20/02 Fri

At the end of "BOtN", my Buffy watching friend (henceforth known as Mister X to preserve his anonymity) said that he was troubled by Buffy's speech. In the past, she had always been humanity's defender, protecting the world from supernatural enemies, bad and BIG BAD alike, who presumed to attack the innocent. Now she wanted to change her role, become an uber-soldier (are you using the word "uber" this season as much as we are) and take the war to the FE? He used one of my favorite theories on the Buffyverse to explain his unease. I have long maintained that the central philosophical conflict in "Buffy" is between fatalism and humanism. I think Whedon is equally drawn to both positions and he allows the characters to point out his current location on the spectrum between these two poles at any given moment. He may be ambivalent about whether he sides with hope or despair but generally, Buffy is an "antidote for melancholy"; her actions create a breathing space, a buffer zone if you will (pun only partially intended), where the human race has the relative security to realize and practice values like love and compassion. If she adopted the methods of the FE in combating it, Mister X reasoned, then she would be compromising her essential nature and might even ultimately betray it. I found myself in the curious position of having to argue against my own thesis. *Warning! the following message will directly challenge some of the political opinions already expressed in this thread. If you feel compelled to attack my position please be aware that, on many issues, I am the prototypical knee-jerk liberal. This week, for instance, I've been wishing someone would tar and feather Trent Lott, at least metaphorically. Its just that, post 9/11, I find myself resembling Christopher Hitchens more than Susan Sontag.* I think that the circumstances regarding Buffy's contest with the FE are so dramatically different than anything she has faced before that a new strategy is demanded. To have any chance of winning at all she has to be pro-active. In the other apocalypses the Scoobies have faced, the destruction of all-that-is was not, with the exception of Angelus, the main objective of the BB. It was often a potential fallout from their actions, with Glory for example, but not their raison d' etre. The FE is unique. It wants to erase all distinctions, wipe good and evil from the board, and reduce the world to a nihilistic void. Pardon my pretentiousness, but sort of like what will happen to civilization if terrorism is allowed to function unchecked in our world. (Okay, get ready to be ticked off!). I did'nt vote for him and most of the time I think he's a bonehead, but on this issue, I think Dubya's right. Sure, Osama and Saddam are'nt "EVIL" in some transcendent sense but their everyday evil is plenty bad enough. If their worldview(s), unenlightened despotism and medieval fundamentalism coupled with disregard for basic human dignity, respectively, were to prevail, would you want to live in that world? Not me. I cherish the freedoms and rights that are our birthright as inheritors of the western tradition and if we have to pursue and defeat those who would deprive us of same, then that may be the painful price we have to pay. So it is, by my reckoning, in the Buffyverse as well. If that seems politically naive or uninformed, I'm sorry. I particularly apologize to any of our non-american posters who may think I sound like an "Ugly American". Not my intention at all, I assure you. I just know that not every "Buffy" fan thinks that her drawing a line in the sand and saying "no more" is a mistake. Can we agree to disagree, at least?

[> [> Yet another dissenting opinion! -- Caroline, 14:23:30 12/20/02 Fri

I agree with you on that one of the tensions of the buffyverse is fatalism vs. humanism. I think that it was brought out beautifully this season in Help, with the plight of Cassie and the referencing of Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five, which contains many of the themes referneced by Whedon and Co throughout the entire series.

But I think that we are making a rather hasty judgement here with the juxtaposition of the war against terror and Buffy's war against the FE. I may be wrong but it is quite possible that what we will see in ensuing episodes is that the way that Buffy has gone to war against Big Bads in the past will not work this time because she faces a fundamentally different enemy - not a manisfestation of evil but transcendent evil itself. A new type of enemy needs a new type of strategy. That in itself could be a commentary on the Bush Administration's current position on terror and the Middle East. We are using old strategies to fight a new enemy - how successful will we be?

I have stated almost all this season that the FE is symbolic of the evil within each and everyone of us (and certainly the SG). That's why Joyce's words to Buffy about evil being everywhere and evil being within were so pleasing to me ('cos you know I'm a Jungian at heart - or should that be conscious and shadow self?). It appears to me that this season the SG and their own characters and capacities will be tested by the FE and they will either destroy themselves or save the world through their own characters, capacities, skills and actions. If they can conquer the evil within themselves, they can save the world. We've discussed for many months now the consequences of oppositional thinking and the need to neutralize the oppositions of good/bad, right/wrong etc - this could be the season we see it happen.

As for the strong emotions felt by many Americans since 9/11, I do sympathise. I'm not American but I live here, a few blocks from the capitol and I work a block away from the White House. I walked home that day while the last place was still unaccounted for. That day will not be forgotten. But I also feel that it is psychologically healthy of us to question what it is about American foreign policy that led to this event. It was not deserved, but why the hostility? Would it not be better that American actions in other countries are just and fair, leaving no room for resentment? According to a recent poll by the Pew Foundation in Europe and the Arab world, the sympathy America garnered after 9/11 has rapidly deteriorated with subsequent rhetoric and actions. In taking the road of vengeance rather than the road of justice, America, IMHO, has squandered the opportunity for leadership in the international arena. Yes, I know, I'm a pie-in-the-sky idealist and nothing seems to be able to cure me of it. See what yoga and meditation do to you???!!!

[> [> our own "loyal opposition" should be so vocal -- Rochefort, 14:28:46 12/20/02 Fri

Without a doubt. It's a far more complicated issue than I can hold in my brain all at one time. I have to put parts of it in my brain and parts of them on a coaster on the table.

The fun thing about THIS particular argument is that it has the Buffy component. So you and I can watch the rest of the season and see how JOSS handles the issue (without any lives being lost). So we can have two arguments. A serious crappy one about the best course of action and a fun sparkly one about what course of action does Joss endorse. I do think that the gang's slide into the methods of the enemy are going to be made problematic, and that Buffy is going to have to find another way to defeat evil. Let's hope to god that whatever it is, it isn't simplistic.

(but even if its not, it will still be far more simple than the real situation we're facing. While I certainly agree that I wouldn't want to live under a bin Laden or Hussein regime, the fact is there are a multitude of regimes I would not want to live under. Moral relativism or no... how can we possibly fight all of them? And when we choose which one's to fight... how are we making that decision? And THEN, even if we have good reasons, is it responsible to fill the air with a rhetoric of good and evil when situations are always so economic and political? Good/evil rhetoric hardly helped us act responsibly, efficiently or "good" during the cold war.)

[> [> [> False dichotomies and S7 -- matching mole, 09:42:46 12/21/02 Sat

Very interesting thread and great idea Rochefort. The idea that the FE as big bad had been inspired by 9/11 had occurred to me but I had certainly never thought things through to the extent you have done.

I tend to be a practical fellow and think in terms of problems and solutions. And a lot of the rhetoric surrounding the war on terrorism seems to be implicitly making two different approaches to 'solving' the terrorism 'problem' mutually exclusive when in fact to me they seem to both be necessary. I don't think your statements represent pie in the sky idealism Caroline. They may reflect moral concerns but they also seem very practical. And I can see this potentially playing out in BtVS. The FE may represent the evil inside all of us. In some individuals this evil is in control (e.g. vampires). For these individuals a force-based preventative strategy is necessary (e.g. the Slayer). However the use of force to try for some sort of ultimate victory is ultimately self-defeating. You cannot kill the potential for evil inside us all. What you can do is try and set the stage so that the evil does not have the opportunity to take control.

[> Not so much allegory as escapism. -- slain, 14:23:56 12/20/02 Fri

The way I look at BtVS is that it appeals to Joss, and to many of its viewers, because it's escapist; at least in one significant sense. It doesn't exist in the 'real' world, and it doesn't make political points. It's not about the politics of the time, it's about humanity in general. Some minor points are made in passing, but ultimately the idea of evil in the show is that it isn't a fictional representation of a real force, but simply a fictional representation of something which doesn't really exist.

In the real world, there's no such thing as Evil, but in the Buffyverse there is. Hence we can get away from having to worry about stuff, and concentrate on the Buffyverse Evil as being a metaphor for evil in humanity in general rather than, say, a metaphorical representation of international terrorism or dictatorial regimes.

That's my stance, and I'm sticking to it, because otherwise I think I'd find it impossible, but more importantly less enjoyable, to watch the show. As far as I'm concerned, the First Evil is the representation of general evil in humanity. Buffy's trying to go after it will probably not work for the reason that, as has been said, evil is in all of us and, despite her bravado, Buffy isn't a represenation of Good, she's just human. I didn't find her speech 'stupid', because I think she genuinely believes it; or, even if she doesn't, the Little Slayers and the rest of Scoobies definitely have to, in order to fight at all. Otherwise, what's the point?

However, just because I happen to deny the existence of a something, it doesn't mean it isn't there. Clearly the events of September the 11th affected all of America, so I think there're echoes of it everywhere. I think some of the direction of Season 7 reflects this. I don't think ME are drawing a parallel between BtVS and the oxymoronic 'war against terror', but rather BtVS is using its status as an unreal world to bring some kind of escapism to its writers and viewers. In the real world, people like Joss Whedon (and me) don't think that Al Qaeda Saddam Hussein are Evil, and the answer is to obliterate them and anyone who agrees with them. But the Buffyverse is different; because there is Evil, then it can be tackled in a way that it can't be in the real world. Buffy can symbolically slay patriachary or just general evil on a regular basis, but (despite what the US Government thinks) you can't fight Evil in the real world, because it doesn't exist.

But of course things are never quite that simple in the Buffyverse; it would be unwise to say that the current plot represents 'liberal' escapism from a morally confusing real world into something more black and white. Buffy, while courageous, probably is misguided in thinking that Evil is quite as tangible as all that. If the bookies would take my bet (unlikely) then I'd put some money on the fact that Buffy won't be able to slay the First Evil, but only subdue it. She can restore the balance, but not tip it in favour of Good. Which, in the end, might be making a point about the 'war against terror' after all.

[> [> I think Joss's strategy is more political change through escapism -- Rochefort, 14:39:46 12/20/02 Fri

I certainly think Joss makes intentional social points left and right. For instance, his plots are often grounded very firmly in current feminist theory, Judith Butler and what not.

That being said, I watch Buffy for a break, too. As I said in the above post, we can argue about how evil is defined WITHOUT lost lives when its just about Buffy. I love Buffy. (sigh)

I do think, by the way, that Joss IS trying hard to work against the genre's prescription for "evil" that is "kick-able." Someone on this board earlier posted that Joss was always unhappy with horror movies that give you a lesson in the end that's peaceful, when the entire movie has demonstrated violent action. The movie far overpowers the lesson. I think he's trying to construct a season, as shadowkat outlined in the above post, in which dichotomies are broken down and violent good/evil rhetoric and action doesn't work. That way, when the lesson comes in the end, it isn't inconsistent. And man, you gotta doff your hat to THAT effort.

[> [> [> Re: I think Joss's strategy is more political change through escapism -- slain, 15:33:35 12/20/02 Fri

As for your first point, I suppose it depends on how you view social, as opposed to political points. Maybe a better way of putting it is that Joss seems to me to be less interested in the immediate socio-political suitation of the day, in a way that satire would be, and more interested in a 'bigger' picture of general social trends; what it's like to grow up, for example, as opposed to what it's like to grow up in South California in the USA in 2002. So while I'm sure the show will tackle Evil vs. evil, and the ways that Evil is not quite as tangible (okay, 'kickable' is better) as Buffy wants it to be, and is in all of us (she obviously didn't watch Season 6), I consider it more as a general reaction to the 'war on terror', rather than a reflection of it.

As for Horror - Joss has always had a funny relationship with it. He came up with the idea of the Buffy because he didn't like one aspect of the genre; but clearly he's embraced much of the genre. He's worked well with the idea of kickable evil in the past (Buffy, for example, kicking Angel in the 'goolies' in Season 2 was a good example), but it does seem to follow his plan that he'd begin to subvert it. After all, when the First Evil was first introduced, Buffy was singularly unimpressed by it (which was my only big problem with BotN - Buffy claiming she was terrified by the First, whereas in 'Amends' she was cooly blasÈ).

BtVS has always subverted the power of Evil, and subverted the idea that anything can call itself Evil rather than just evil. However it hasn't necessarily subverted the idea that there is Evil; the boundaries between Good and Evil have been greyed, but the idea that somewhere there is a big bad something/s which is nasty and has an ass to kick has always been part of the show: Buffy's raison d'etre. So maybe that's the last element of the genre to be reconsidered by the show; that, after all, maybe Evil can't be, or perhaps shouldn't be, beaten. Consider my hat doffed, then.

[> [> [> [> What I think the First Evil represents. -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:22:45 12/20/02 Fri

I do agree, to a certain extent, that the First Evil represents the evil inside of everyone. However, I've also got another impression of it: the First Evil is what unites the various powers of evil. It leads multiple, evil minions, from those who blindly serve a cause (the Harbingers, if you take their blinded eyes as symbolism), to people corrupted through moral weakness and misplaced loyalty (Andrew), to people who help evil and don't even realize it (Spike), to the most primal, bestial rage that exists (the Tulah-Kahn Vampire). These represent various types of evil, and none of them really have much to do with each other, yet all serve the First Evil. And I think there may be other minions of the First that we can't be sure of yet (the manifest spirits, Principal Wood, D'Hoffryn, maybe Giles).

The First Evil doesn't just represent the evil in each of us; it represents the way that the multitudes of evil in this world enhance and aid each other even without meaning it. Haven't there been many times in the past when two villains will actually end up working against each other? The most famous is probably Spike, who fought against the Annointed One and Angelus way back in Season Two, was almost killed by the Mayor's lackeys in Season Three, and started "waging war" on the demon community in Season Four. But there are also other cases, like Adam's treatment both of his creators and his demon subjects, or when the very evil Glory fought the morally-ambigous Knights of Byzantium. Evil has been much more chaotic in past seasons, and so Buffy's focus has been on individual baddies. But not now. Buffy may not be able to destroy the evil in everyone, but she can destroy the thing that links all evil into a cohesive whole. After all, there's a difference between trying to eradicate all evil and stopping an evil shapeshifter from manipulating that evil.

Also, there's a crucial line from the speech that I remember more than anything about war: "we're not just going to face our greatest fears; we're going to hunt them down and cut out their hearts". Perhaps the biggest theme of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is facing your fears as represented in monsters. But always the monsters/life problems are the agressors. They turn up and the heroes manage to push them back. But now Buffy and the Gang aren't going to be content to maintain status quo; they're going to go after their problems/monsters and make things BETTER, rather than just stopping them from getting worse.

Also, from a purely plot standpoint, think about this: while they've known that there's something evil brewing in Sunnydale since Lessons, when have we seen them trying to get to the heart of the matter? What if they had gone down to the basement, pulled Spike out, and set him up as Xander's roomates a few months earlier? We might not have a Sleeper agent on our hands. If they had tried to trace Andrew and Jonathan after they fled Sunnydale? We might not have that dead body on the seal that Principal Wood had to clean up. If the Watchers' Council had gotten their rears in gear before they were almost wiped out by waves of Harbingers? Buffy might have access to the information and additional warriors needed to fight this new evil. And there are other cases, too, and not just from this season. Generally, waiting for evil to make the first move has often been a major flaw that the Scoobies have to work through each season.

[> [> [> [> Re: I think Joss's strategy is more political change through escapism -- aliera, 17:12:52 12/20/02 Fri

My feeling is that the writing can't help but be coloured by it given his sensitivity...other than that, I think it's too early to make a determination. ;-)

[> Re: 7.10 and the U.S. Response to Terrorism (or "Rochefort Recants") or (Do/Don't Worry about Giles) -- Rufus, 00:52:25 12/22/02 Sun

Wow. Did anyone else catch the similarities between 7.10 and the way we've responded to terrorism in the U.S. and G.B.?

BTVS is all about journeys and we wait for glimpses of possible destinations for the different characters. I was waiting for someone to see the parallel between Bring on the Night and 9/11. War is something that people have to be convinced to join, or drafted. Buffy had told the Slayers in training to sit tight and wait things out......it then became clear that this was a stance she could no longer support as everyone would end up dead. This ep doesn't just remind me of 9/11 but of any war. People may fight wars but only a few types are capable of doing something evil enough that no one can sit by allowing the possible destruction of everything they value. Buffy's speech at the end of the show is there to remind us of all the people from the present or the past who had the inenviable job of rousing others to fight a fight that is worth winning.

Big Bad Episodes can we expect more? (minor spoils through BOTN) -- neaux, 11:41:04 12/19/02 Thu

Well we have seen a whole episode with Warren and a full episode with Dru.

interestingly it was Warren manipulating Andrew and Dru working on Spike.

I honestly believe now that this will hint towards the final battle.. or war but can we expect more of these episodes.. and how will it play out?

who would Adam benefit from poking at?

an episode of Glory getting under the nails of Willow seems appropriate.

The Mayor would work on Faith.. assuming she returns.

and the Master egging on Buffy to do something drastic.

I think this would be great to have more of these episodes, just so we can have more Villianous screentime.

what do you guys think?

[> Re: Big Bad Episodes can we expect more? (minor spoils through BOTN) -- Angelina, 13:42:44 12/19/02 Thu

I think that is a great idea. I, personally would KILL to see Glory again. She was my all time favorite Big Bad. Absolutely loved the actress who played her. AND, just trying to figure out who is REALLY real - Mind Boggling and FUN!

[> [> An interesting scene would be -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:30:40 12/19/02 Thu

The First Evil trying to torment Dawn by appearing as Joyce, but when Dawn starts shutting her out, saying "You're not real!", it shifts into Glory. I just think that would be a really creepy scene, and Dawn is actually the person most likely to be tormented by a Glory apparition.

[> Re: Big Bad Episodes can we expect more? (minor spoils through BOTN) -- Vickie, 16:46:38 12/19/02 Thu

Great idea! I think I'd rather see Angelus vs. Willow, and save Glory to work on Dawn (good idea Angelina had).

Unless we'd rather use Angelus on Giles.

Unless Giles is really FEGiles.

I give up.

[> Adam idea -- Tyreseus, 16:56:57 12/19/02 Thu

Of all the potential scoobies to be tormented by Adam, I think Xander is the best fit, from his commando days. Plus there's that whole carpenter vs. man-made evil thing. Or maybe we'll get a guest appearance from Riley as the FE lures the military group to their slaughter in Sunnydale (more tying up of loose ends/killing off past characters - someone call Drew Goddard).

Otherwise FE/Adam could continue to torment Spike - reminding him of the days he tried to break up the band, er, um, scoobies.

[> Any excuse -- Rooks, 18:59:37 12/19/02 Thu

...to see the Mayor is good with me. You can never have too much Mayor Wilkins.

[> not Glory but ... (minor spoils through BOTN) -- M, 19:34:05 12/19/02 Thu

Ben. It would be interesting to see how Giles would react to an apparition of the person he killed. If it is Giles and if Giles is still alive

[> [> Oooooooooh! me likey!! -- neaux, 04:15:52 12/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> Me too! Very much!!! -- Rob, 12:35:12 12/20/02 Fri

OT: Yabyum -- Diane, 13:04:50 12/19/02 Thu

Feel kind of weird posting this after Leslie's post (many condolences to Leslie. It's a terrible thing even if you expect it. Been there, done that, hurts like hell)
My posting name is yabyumpan after my two cats, yabyum & pan. Yabyum died a few hours ago, I knew he was ill but I had expected/hoped for a few more months. I now don't know what to do about my posting name, I feel weird even typing it. Part of me feels i should keep it to honour him but it feels strange putting the name of my now dead cat next to the very alive (if pretty freaked at the momment)one.
I don't know what I'm going to do, maybe it signals a time for change.
Sorry if this is an inappropriate post but I know there are a lot of cat people here and I felt the need to share.

[> I'm so sorry to hear that, Diane -- Wisewoman, 13:39:38 12/19/02 Thu

Don't feel weird. I know what you mean. We lost our beloved Dalmatian in September and I think my partner and I grieved more and longer than we ever have before. The thing about losing pets is that their love for you is unconditional--and the loss of that unconditional love causes a unique grief.

I can be sensible, and keep my perspective, and I recognize that a cat or a dog is not a person. Some may find it tactless to equate the suffering over a lost pet to the suffering over a human being, but I also know it still hurts in a place where nothing else can touch you.

My thoughts are with you and Pan. Think about changing your posting name for a few days before you do it...you might find it serves as a memorial to yabyum, eventually.

Elizabeth

[> [> My deepest empathy.... -- Briar Rose, 13:26:57 12/20/02 Fri

It's almost harder to lose a beloved pet than anyone else in our lives, unless it's a mate maybe.... Who else gives us the absolute unconditional love and caring and comfort without asking pactically anything in return?

I know that I have taken loss of a pet harder than anything except my Father's death... For the other family, I loved them, but it was a human love. It is just not the same! They weren't with me 24/7 and always ready to lend comfort anytime I needed it. Theyweren't always there to share my secrets without fear that they would judge. And they weren't always ready to make me laugh when I needed to. But my Lucky, Lady and Tuffy were.*S* And when the day comes when my Tribble is passing - I will be a wreck! So it better not be for a very long time to come.

Another fur person will enter your life when the time is right. That I believe, even though you won't even want to think about that now.*S*

[> Re: OT: Yabyum -- JM, 14:08:47 12/19/02 Thu

Maybe with time, a different name, one that's still pays respect to your pet, will eventually feel right. I think part of the reason that we're so sad when we lose pets, in a very different way than when we lose people, is that they really are so dependent on us. Much condolences.

[> [> Re: OT: Yabyum -- Deb, 14:24:47 12/19/02 Thu

I have lost three pets in my lifetime, and with each, it was losing a best friend. So it is appropriate for you to share your lose. I'm sure you'll decide about your screen name in time.

[> Condolences! -- Masq, 15:52:40 12/19/02 Thu

I have two kitties, too. I know how I would feel if one were to go. I lost another cat about ten years ago.

Let us know what your new board name will be if you decide to change.

[> I'm sorry to hear this, Diane... -- Rob, 16:41:31 12/19/02 Thu

...I lost my dog, Fred, almost two years ago to Diabetes, and I never would have expected how painful losing a pet can be. A cat or dog is a constant presence in your house that is then suddenly gone. Many people didn't understand why I was so sad, saying I needed to get over it right away, because it wasn't like a human had died. But to me, Fred was one of my closest friends, human or not, and unlike my human friends he was ALWAYS there for me. So I truly understand what you're going through. And I'm so sorry for your loss.

Rob

[> Much sympathy! -- Vickie, 16:44:07 12/19/02 Thu

my heart's with you, Diane.

[> So sorry -- luna, 17:29:42 12/19/02 Thu

Losing cats is SO hard. Their innocence, their patience--they seem so much nobler than I could ever be. I know you will miss Yabyum, and I think about your sorrow.

[> Re: OT: Yabyum -- Oneeyedchicklet, 17:49:28 12/19/02 Thu

I read this in a sympathy card and it made me feel a tiny bit better when I lost by beloved dog at Christmas time:
"The stars are not stars but holes in heaven where the happiness of our loved ones shines down to say thank you for sharing your life with them..."
So go out tonight and find your star.
So sorry,
Chicklet

[> [> Re: OT: Yabyum -- Diane, 19:02:00 12/19/02 Thu

Thank you all for your kindness and sympathy, it means a lot. I've just buried him under a tree, beneath the full Moon and the Stars. Shine on Yabyum.....

[> [> [> sympathies... -- anom, 22:56:34 12/19/02 Thu

I've been there, all too recently. Almost 2 years ago, I lost both my cats, who were sisters, 6 weeks apart. I'm glad you were able to bury Yabyum nearby but so sorry you needed to. My 2 are buried near each other, across the street. It's getting to hurt less when I pass by.

It is different when a pet dies. You've been involved in their lives, & they in yours, in a different way than with other humans.

Good thing I'm typing this. I don't know if I could get it out coherently, or at least intelligibly, if I were trying to speak it.

I hope you & Pan can comfort each other & help each other through this.

[> So sorry to hear this -- Rahael, 03:26:35 12/20/02 Fri

I am no cat person, but I used to have a lot of pets, my favourite was a dog called Misha who was given to us as a tiny puppy. I can still remember the day we named him.

He recognised me even after long absences abroad - and as I grew older, would greet me so violently and enthusiastically I would sometimes run away from him when I came home! We went through so much together, and at the end, we all left him behind, and after much time spent searching the streets of our town for us, he disappeared.

So here's to remembering all the innocent little creatures who depended on us for the world, and who we can't always protect as we would want to.

The Mower

The mower stalled, twice; kneeling, I found
A hedgehog jammed up against the blades,
Killed. It had been in the long grass.

I had seen it before, and even fed it, once.
Now I had mauled its unobtrusive world
Unmendably. Burial was no help:

Next morning I got up and it did not.
The first day after a death, the new absence
Is always the same; we should be careful

Of each other, we should be kind
While there is still time

Larkin

[> [> Very sorry to hear about your cat. Emailing -- Phil, 04:11:23 12/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> Sorry that should have been a direct reply to Diane. Emailing both of you though :-) -- Phil, 04:31:02 12/20/02 Fri

[> So sad! -- verdantheart, 06:13:57 12/20/02 Fri

I lost my cat, Flanster, over two years ago, and I still miss him greatly. Of course, it's hard not to miss a big warm ball of fur who's always on your lap purring whenever you're sitting down! It's hard to lose a furry friend. My kitty was very ill and we were debating his pain vs his quality of life, but he still seemed to enjoy sleeping in the sun or on my lap. But then his kidneys shut down and made our decision for us.

Please don't feel guilty for grieving the loss of a pet. Pets are special kinds of friends who depend on us more and are always there for us.

[> Re: OT: Yabyum -- MaeveRigan, 07:02:08 12/20/02 Fri

Not inappropriate at all, Diane. I mourned for a long time when my most beloved cat died. Haven't really owned one since, though I will again, one day, because I really am a cat person.

And at this time of year, too, when you really don't want to be sad. I'm thinking of you.

[> My condolences -- dream of the consortium, 10:48:00 12/20/02 Fri

Anyone who says "it's just a cat" has never loved one - or been loved by one. My Siamese is my darling. My sympathy is with you.

[> Re: OT: Yabyum -- DEN, 11:06:06 12/20/02 Fri

We love our friends no less when they go on four feet. Whatever you decide about the posting name, a cat lives as long as his humans remember.

[> Sharing your sadness -- Dyna, 12:19:19 12/20/02 Fri

I'm so sorry, Diane! Your post rings a sad bell with me, as like you I have a kitty who is ill, and this morning I found out her condition is much worse--cancer that appeared suddenly has spread to three other spots on her body in only a week's time. I'm moving up my visit home because my mother and sister don't expect her to live until Christmas Eve.

Also like you, I have used a combination of the names of my two cats everywhere--not for posting names, but as the password for my email accounts, my login name at my bank, the "password reminder" question at innumerable websites. What I hope is that rather than making me, typing her name so often will remind me of what a wonderful part of my life she has been for the last 14 years. For now though, like you I'm just sad!

[> Our Furry Friends......that ended up in the wrong thread -- Rufus, 19:25:47 12/21/02 Sat

I was sorry to hear about your kitty. My cat died last year and I was relieved to see the end of his suffering but after 18 years I couldnt' believe he was gone.

I got Leo in the early 80's, he was a ginger tabby, true ginger, not the washed out yellow some cats can be. He had orange eyes with flecks of gold.....he was tiny but ruled over all the other cats. I had a time in my life where I was for health reasons cut off from the world. At a time when I was so alone, Leo was there, and he didn't care what I looked like or felt like. He was with me through the years, I may have been alone but Leo made sure I was never lonely.

This September was the year since he died...for a Christmas gift a friend got me a tree ornament....an Orange Tabby with wings.

[> Sending my sympathies -- Haecceity, 00:50:06 12/22/02 Sun

...and kitty nosekisses from my black Kismet who uncharacteristically won't stay away from the screen tonight. Odd how the death of a pet hits you in that vulnerable spot of unquestioned love, the one you never knew the size of until it is a hole.

Wishing you and Pan love in the face of loss,

---Haecceity

[> Re: OT: Yabyum -- Celebaelin, 01:25:40 12/22/02 Sun

I held my Border Collie in my arms whilst the vet. injected him. I will never forget how that felt. Try not to be too sad for too long.

[> Re: OT: Yabyum - deepest sympathy! -- shadowkat, 10:48:49 12/22/02 Sun

It's been a long time since I've owned a cat - but they are far my favorite pets. As I child I owned several and lost at least three of my most beloved friends. One - who owned the name Simon - lives with me in my dreams and I will never forget. I lost him to a car - the poor thing was an indoor cat and had gotten out and ended up crossing the busy street we lived on. He had been my best friend, often sitting with a slight head tilt while I voiced my woes about teenage things. He'd taken the long cross-country journey with my family and I when we moved from PA to KC in the 70s. And he'd seen me through more than my fair share of childhood and adolescent anxieties. Even though we got two more cats after his death, they never took his place, no cat will. I loved them of course...before we lost them, one to a heart attack and one that we had to give away due to my Dad's allergies. But their parting never effected me quite the same way, not sure any parting has since Simon's death. I still remember him in my head - a perfect seal point Siamese with crystal blue eyes and a slightly nasal child's cry of meow - siamese sound a bit like babies when they cry. Sleek. Graceful. He could walk through an entire bookcase of glass and not break a thing. He could jump up on any object no matter how high. And he could sit still as I cried over things I no longer can recall with absolute patience watching me with that odd tilt of his head on my windowsill. I had two cats prior to Simon,( both tabby's - both ran away, we lived close to a woods and they had been outdoor cats )- but he was in many ways my first true love.

So I feel your pain. And extend my heartfelt sympathies. I think you should keep your screen name - as a rememberance of your cat. I've tried to use Simon's name on more than one occassion but unfortunately it has proven too popular an online name.

I always thought of cats as magical beings that understand worlds we can't begin to imagine and understand us better than we will ever truly understand them.

Deepest sympathies,
SK

Just had a totally wacky thought. Tell me I'm crazy. (future unspoiled spec, NLM, BOtN spoilers) -- Rob, 13:31:35 12/19/02 Thu

Now, from confirmation in NLM we can pretty much tell for sure that the people being knocked off by the Harbingers/Bringers were potential slayers and their watchers. In BOtN, Giles arrives with a group of potential slayers, and that is one of the major reasons most people are leaning towards the Giles not being the First Evil theory.

But what if...these specific girls that he brought are either (a) not potential Slayers at all and are actually evil or (b) potential Slayers that have already been turned to the dark side.

Perhaps Annabelle ran away because she had a change of heart, as Spike and Andrew eventually did.

Just because we were told by GILES, of all people, that these are potential Slayers, doesn't mean we should believe him. What other evidence do we have really?

I myself think this theory is probably completely off-base. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Rob

[> ahem... you're crazy -- JBone (who couldn't resist), 13:44:28 12/19/02 Thu

[> You're crazy. Better? (future unspoiled spec, NLM, BOtN spoilers) -- LurkerBoy, 13:55:00 12/19/02 Thu

Rob,
Just when I thought I have heard all 8,736,537 theories, you come up with another one. And a good one. I mean, that's not exactly how I think it will play out, but it (like everything else going on) is still possible. And speaking of that...

I wanted to ask you something, because it sounds like you like this season as well. So far, this season, with its reliance on misdirects, red herrings and such, has made for one big mind f***. Do you think there is a point at which it can become too much? Even though the show is mostly from Buffy's POV, we (the audience) see everything from a traditional 3rd person. With so many red herrings going on, is there a point at which ME risks collapsing the entire structure of the show because *no one in the audience has any clue about what has happened, is happening or will happen?* This is hardly a new idea. The idea is present in every single story every told which features an unreliable narrator of some kind. I find those are the trickiest stories to write because you have to be careful of having your reader (or viewer) just throw up their hands and say, "Oh, the hell with it. I give up." And just move on. I don't know. I don't think that is has gotten that bad yet. Just an idea.

Oh, by the way? My totally unspoiled spec re: Giles? I do not think that it is Giles. I think it's possible that Giles *knew* what was happening to the SIT's and their watchers, and had the coven create a 'clone', or simulacrum, in order to fool the FE into thinking that he was dead. The 'real' Giles in still out there, waiting for the right time to show himself. That would explain why he is acting close to Giles, but not completely. Anyway, how's *that* for a crackpot idea?

LurkerBoy

[> [> I like the way you think! -- Rob, 16:26:45 12/19/02 Thu

Your Giles theory is quite intriguing. Like my SIT theory, not sure if it's really what's going on, but interesting.

Re: the structure of the seventh season, I personally will follow the show no matter where it goes. To some degree, the fourth and fifth seasons also had a similar "what the hell is going on"-iness about them until the end. How about Ben? We had trouble figuring out his intentions until much later in the year, and then when we thought we had him pegged as a good guy, he proved to be all too weak to the allure of Glory.

At the moment, I'm completely intrigued and fascinated. I hope most other people are too. "Buffy" seasons always work best after they're finished, and you can rewatch the whole thing and understand the story as a cohesive whole. I have faith in ME that by the end, everything will end up making sense. All the pieces always do come together in the end, and for now, I'm happy to be frustrated. For me, it makes the enjoyment of the show so much greater. Although I loved the sixth season, that's what I missed most of all--this forward momentum, driven by mystery and misdirection, that each episode makes you question what you've seen before.

Admittedly, the other seasons didn't have quite so many red herrings, or potential red herrings as this one, but I have a very good feeling that it's going to lead to something really amazing.

Rob

[> a 3rd possibility -- anom, 00:09:27 12/20/02 Fri

"Now, from confirmation in NLM we can pretty much tell for sure that the people being knocked off by the Harbingers/Bringers were potential slayers and their watchers....But what if...these specific girls that he brought are either (a) not potential Slayers at all and are actually evil or (b) potential Slayers that have already been turned to the dark side."

(c) 1 or more of them are impersonations by the First of potential Slayers who were knocked off by the Harbingers? We know a bunch of 'em died...so why not? OK, we haven't ever seen the First manifest in >1 form at the same time in the same place, but it has manifested in >1 form at the same time in different places...so again, why not?

It also takes care of the question of how the 3 PSs could have taken a, what, 12-hr. plane flight from England w/FEGiles & not noticed that he never had to get up to go to the bathroom (presumably from a window seat so they wouldn't have to climb over him when they had to go), never ate the meal(s) served, never carried his luggage...any of which, if FEGiles had tried to do them, would have given him/it away. If they're all dead, the First could materialize in their forms w/out having to fly from England. It's the only way to travel! Well, except for that inconvenient being dead part.

...OK, if the PSs were the First, they couldn't have handled physical objects either, which we saw them do. But I like the idea....

[> [> LOL! Well, they might be... (more spec) -- Rob, 08:25:06 12/20/02 Fri

...human servants of the First, like Spike and Andrew were. I'm not thinking it's all that likely though. ;o)

Oh, but if they were, then they themselves could go to the bathroom, eat, and stuff, and, ya know, not be surprised when Giles...didn't! ;o)

Rob

[> [> [> So, Rob, tell me... (spec & spoilers thru BOtN) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 10:09:18 12/20/02 Fri

are you definitively committed to one theory or another on the whole Giles question? Because, frankly, I can't keep my mind made up for more than a few minutes without swinging in an opposing or alternate direction. Depending on what time of day you ask me, the Giles we just saw is an impersonation by the FE, a ghost whose spiritual essence is being held together by the witch's coven in the UK, a magical doppelganger generated by the real Giles while he fights the FE on another front, or the real Giles combatting a bout of clinical depression brought on by the deaths of the potential slayers and the destruction of the Watcher's Council! Ask me again in ten minutes and I'll offer you something else ;o) ! As for the other topic of discussion, I too am loving all the red herrings and misdirection but I am getting so anxiety-ridden from ep to ep that I have almost decided to just tape the whole season, unwatched, and then just sit down and gorge on the remaining 12 episodes in a massive marathon. Yeah right, like I have enough superhuman will power to do that...

[> [> [> [> Re: So, Rob, tell me... (spec & spoilers thru BOtN) -- Rob, 12:04:26 12/20/02 Fri

While that watch it all in one sitting plan sounds like a brilliant idea, I don't think I'd be able to keep it up longer than 5 minutes into taping the first episode, after which point I'd pace up and down waiting for the episode to be done taping so I could watch it! I'd go into some serious Willowy withdrawal w/o my fix of Buffy goodness!

And no, I am so perplexed by this Giles situation that I can't keep one, solid coherent theory in my head too long either before it switches to another just as unlikely one! What I am almost betting on, I think, is that it isn't real Giles AND it isn't the First Evil. I just think that might be too easy, since we'd have a 50/50 chance of being right. I think it's a third as of yet unknown option. Maybe Giles is dead, and he's a ghost. Assuming that Joyce from CWDP was really Joyce (and I'm not so sure about that either, although I'm pretty sure that BOtN Joyce is), her seemingly not too-encouraging advice to Dawn is similar to Giles' not too encouraging advice to Buffy. Are they both disaffected or evil? Of course, this idea would call questions as to how Giles could manifest for such a long amount of time while Joyce can't. See? My head is spinning with ideas!!

I finally get settled into "Buffy's in a break mode," where after 2 weeks, I finally am not obsessing over every detail of the show...and then one episode has to air and my brain goes back into overdrive...and no more answers are forthcoming for at least another 2-3 weeks. Cruel, cruel UPN!

Rob

[> Why can't it be some, but not all? -- egak, 14:53:52 12/20/02 Fri

I peronaly suspect Molly and possibly Annabelle, but not Kennedy, of (b).

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