December 2002 posts

Previous December 2002
More December 2002

2 Things I didn't necessarily hate, but definitely noticed -- Solitude1056, 08:41:17 12/18/02 Wed

I think the episode was edited - and perhaps badly - at the tail end of the process, since there were elements that stuck out. First, when Willow's at the bottom of the stairs and processing Miss Bossy Potential Slayer's comment about hogging the covers, the lighting and quality of that quick segment was dramatically different from the rest. Not in a "we want you to notice this" way but in a "we needed a shot and so grabbed one that wasn't as good rather than go back and redo the scene" kind of way. What's up with that? Who directed this one?

And did anyone else notice the change in voice quality when the principal and Buffy were discussing horror movies? At the line, "You mean Roy Schneider's ouevre?" or whomever it was (I didn't recognize the name), the voice quality was definitely different. The ambient noise was gone, and the voice was tinnier - as if they did a loop over the original at a later point. Why? What was wrong with the first version? Why did they do such a bad loop, so bad I could notice it despite the fact that my hearing is notoriously horrendous?

Sheesh. Other than that, yeah. I loathe episodes like this, cause it'll be six episodes before we even understand half of what we saw... and I am so not into delayed gratification. Grrrrrrrrr!

[> Re: 2 Things I didn't necessarily hate, but definitely noticed -- dub, 09:16:25 12/18/02 Wed

Don't know about the Willow shot, but I felt DBW may have had a problem with the word "ouevre." He seemed to place undue emphasis on it.

And that's Rob Schneider, Sol...y'know, Deuce Bigelow, Male Gigolo?

;o)

[> Re: 2 Things I didn't necessarily hate, but definitely noticed -- cjc36, 09:57:58 12/18/02 Wed

I've noticed since season 6 that the rhythm of the cutting has gotten inconsistent. Tabula Rasa and especially Life Serial were cut wonderfully, as was Lessons. But ever once in awhile I'll notice something that seems jumpy or off, and its usually in fight scenes. TTG/Grave, anybody? What gives? New folks at the Avid, or the usual TV time constraints?

[> [> Maybe they hired ABC strike breaker employees.*LOL -- Briar Rose, 15:24:23 12/18/02 Wed

Yes! I am noticing a lot more bad editing on shows, news and ,movies and not limited to BtVS.

I was blaming it on the various Iatsi strikes that were occurring during the past two years, but now I'm thinking that there are just more newbie editors out there, working for cheaper rates and they just don't have the chops. It's sad....

But as others mentioned, it can really affect our enjoyment of a show. Not as bad as the Bronx accent on Daniel Day Lewis in Last of the Mohicans... but still!

One of the reasons I am SUCH a spoiler slut is because I am almost more intrigued by the scene behind the scenes and spoilers allow me to really feel that part of the shows I actually watch. This is the same reason why I pay attention to such odd things as 'is it shot on film or video?' and 'edits are done well, or not?' and 'does a character stay in dialect all the way through or not?'

[> [> [> No, sorry, Keanu Reeves' idea of a Southern accent is STILL the worst. -- Solitude1056, 16:02:26 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> How about his English accent as Johnathon Harker in Dracula..? -- Rufus, 22:11:36 12/18/02 Wed

I could tolerate the Southern accent, but what he did to the English accent made me want to throw a Bubble and Squeak at him.....;)

[> [> [> [> [> While we're at it... howabout his rendition of Shakespeare's English in Much Ado. Whoa! -- Rochefort, 22:38:41 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> I've never noticed his skill at accents or lack there of... -- Deeva, 22:52:10 12/18/02 Wed

as I was too busy just looking at that pretty face. Though I do like him in The Matrix. He wasn't just set decoration in that one.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Point taken.....he is easy on the eyes.....;) -- Rufus, 22:53:53 12/18/02 Wed

Who never notices anything like that.....:):):):):)

[> Re: One thing I definitely noticed -- Silky, 07:08:47 12/19/02 Thu

For those of you who taped the episode - watch the last part where Buffy is alone in her bedroom and we hear the gang talking in v.o. ----what you hear is not at all what shows on the closed captioning [which is, I believe taken from the script]. Very interesting differences, too.

Something I havenít noticed being mentioned -- Curious, 10:43:53 12/18/02 Wed

Thanks everyone for a great read on the Episode so far. Just wish I could come here more often. I could seriously get addicted.

I canít say that Iíve read every single thread or anything, but something I thought was interesting in the episode was the location spell scene that I havenít noticed mentioned.
Iíve got tons of questions right now and a ton of muddled, almost but not quite connected thoughts. Especially about the extra strangeness surrounding Buffy. However Iím about to rush of to ìLord of the Ringsî so here goes.

O.K. the spell scene. Willow has barely finished prepping for the spell when the first is on it in an instant. I mean, just like that, no fooling around. We get a some nifty digital special effects then wham, the First breaks out of Willowís mouth and for a second is face to face with Buffy as she yells for Willow. The first immediately retreats back into Willow and says,

ìYou will only make me strongerî.

The first time I watch this scene, I had thought it was a general ìYouíll only make me strongerî kinda way, directed at Willow or the whole group as a situation. Maybe warning them that using magic would only make it stronger.

I re-wounded this scene several times and re-watched it, once with the CC on, and it was definitely played out this way on screen.

-The First comes out of Willowís mouth
-The First is face to face with Buffy
-The First immediately retreats into Willow
-The First zaps Buffy with mystical energy
-The First whose eyes are directly trained on Buffy says
-"You only make me stronger"
-Xander smashed the thingy, what ever it is and Willow collapses

Am I just seeing things? Does this have any significance at all? Especially as the season is beginning to remind me more and more of Hindu Mythology. The First, being source of all. Evil, good, love, hate, everything and nothingÖÖ

I guess what Iím saying is, if the First created Evil, then it also created the opposite. Iím wondering if this scene might reflect these pairs of opposite, and if so, Buffy is the one to set the example to reach deep within herself to find the divine, the holy that suppresses the Evil that is also within all. So when the hellmouth does ìswallow her wholeî it will indeed ìchoke on her.î

O,K. told ya I was less than coherent right now.

Any thoughts?

BTW, am I the only one to sing the praises of SMG for that incredible delivery of the St. Crispin Day speech at the end. In the hands of a lesser actor, it could have been incredibly horrible. As it was, my eyes had tears in it.

[> Re: Sorry.. Spoilers above for Bring on the Night -- Curious, 10:54:58 12/18/02 Wed

[> Re: Something I havenít noticed being mentionedÖÖÖ -- skpe, 12:30:07 12/18/02 Wed

I agree SMG rocks, and even the numerous Buffy bashers are going to miss her if this is indeed her last season

[> [> Completely agree! SMG is ab fab! -- Briar Rose, 17:35:58 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: The writer (Joss and Co) and the actor (SMG and co)!!!! -- David Frisby, 19:14:04 12/18/02 Wed

I also affirm and attest to the virtuosity of SMG -- without her BtVS would not be what it is by a long shot!

But I also want to note that the original post to this thread makes some interesting observations regarding the First manifesting as a result of Willow's spell, especially with regard to its focus on Buffy.

I'm not entirely clear on the possible Hindu reference though?

And might that line from the First ("you will only make me stronger") perhaps be referring to the more famous line used often over the last century ("that which does not kill me makes me stronger")????

I think the role of Willow in this season has not yet been revealed. And I'm lost with regard to Giles, for now.

Wow! What a show. And yes, that speech on war will go down in television history. SMG deserves to become Joan Bond (for a few movies) when Brosnan steps down!

Of course, a few BtVS movies would be nice too!

David Frisby

[> [> [> [> Re:Hey thanks you lot :) and a Joan Bond I will definitely go and see! LOL -- curious, 20:01:10 12/18/02 Wed

Yes Mr. Frisby. Who needs a silly Emmy when you can go down in Television History. Perhaps we should form a historical society for ficticious characters with the most memorable speeches. And then we should hand out Annual awards.

Seriously, I do think there's something perculiar about that focus.

About the Hindu reference. I will get back with you on that when I'm not so bleary eyed and tired.

Not sure about the Nietzhe remark. Or was it Camus?
I have absolutely no idea what that line means. I have an inkling that it might have something to do with Buffy's power. We still have yet to find out more about this Slayer Power. The First Slayer Power and how its related to The First.

Emily Dickinson and Spike -- sunshine, 15:30:42 12/18/02 Wed

Never thought I'd start a Spike thread, but I can't resist posting this Emily Dickinson poem - apparently it's quoted at the Tabula Rasa website, though I picked it up at the Council of Watchers:

FATE slew him, but he did not drop;
She felledóhe did not falló
Impaled him on her fiercest stakesó
He neutralized them all.

She stung him, sapped his firm advance,
But, when her worst was done,
And he, unmoved, regarded her,
Acknowledged him a man

[Emily Dickinson, c1865]

It sure sounds like a description of Spike's journey to date:

Fate slew him but he did not drop = he becomes a vampire (note also the use of "slew" - isn't there an episode where Buffy asks Giles about the past tense of "slay"?!)

She felled him but he did not fall - "felled" could refer to either Drusilla or Buffy, I guess.

"fiercest stakes" - speaks for itself.

And Buffy did sap Spike's first firm advances but has recently acknowledged him a man.

As someone at the Council of Watchers site points out, Joss namechecks Emily D in NKABOTFD (Owen's really into her)so it's hard to believe this is a coincidence.

I guess the poem could just as easily be about Angel though :-)

Any thoughts on Emily Dickinson's place in the Buffyverse?

[> This is a question for fresne, definitely. -- Solitude1056, 16:05:54 12/18/02 Wed

[> Re: Emily Dickinson and Spike -- Rahael, 16:32:35 12/18/02 Wed

I did some annotations for Rob about the poetry used in NKABOTFD. Mostly about the symbolism of time, watches, watchers, poetry and death.

I'd have to say that poems allow a new way into all sorts of subjects, including Buffy. It's very hard, though, to prove that that's what the writers were thinking about, especially since it's not name checked in that very ep. But that never stops me from using poetry in posts here!!

(Rob's annotated Buffy site:www.justinleader.com/annotatedbuffy/)

[> [> Just to add -- Rahael, 02:16:30 12/19/02 Thu

I'm deferring to Fresne to answer your question properly!

[> [> [> Okay, hey! and other whatnot (spoiler for TBtN) -- fresne, 08:29:28 12/19/02 Thu

No, no, I wave generally back in your direction. You much more with the poetry than I.

I mean come on, I just used the word holistic in a document. Ick. Which of course is why Iím here looking at posts instead of writing. Even now I should be snapping out some really beautiful prose about how Enterprise Architecture is all the done thing and will save us money and therefore Christmas and about how Technology and Business should walk hand and hand through the poppies down the yellow brick road or perhaps on the back of the starship Enterprise to the shining city of our ìTo Beî Architecture on a hill and if we donít it will be chaos, chaos I say.

But enough about my panic, hmmm.

Well, sapped his firm advance can also refer to the military act of sapping. Generally it refers to sapping walls, but it can refer to sapping the ground, so that as an army advances, they do what the Buffster did in TBtN. The ground it seems is not solid. Which has the nice elemental tie back because by sapping the very nature of solid earth is transformed into, well, air. WeeeeeÖ.thump, thump, thump. Tying back to the she felled him, but he did not fall. The ground wasnít solid, but it didnít matter. Impaled and stung are also paralleled. Here, lies Spike beneath the earth, but not laid low. He has made his choices and comes to a sticking point.

Interesting also that the acknowledgement of his (poet character/Spikeís) manhood, for lack of a better word, comes from an external force, Fate, She, as opposed to internally. Fate being the author of his troubles and the one who acknowledges, ie. really sees him.

But Iím going to stop now, stepping carefully away from the board. Holistic Enterprise Architectural Functional Business Area definitions wait for no woman.

Color Me Unimpressed Pt. 1 (spoilers up through 7.10) -- Shiraz, 16:16:40 12/18/02 Wed

This is my first major analysis of an episode so bear with me.

On the wall of my cubicle I've put a copy of "Mark Twain's Rules of Writing". The first rule is:

"A tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere."

In my opinion, its on this point that "Bring on the Night"(BotN) fails completely. We learned nothing in this episode that was not made abundantly clear in the previous episodes.

For example:

1. (bullet points, they are a career induced sickness of mine)At the end of "Never Leave Me"(NLM) the big bad is revealed to be the First Evil, of whom the gang knows nothing.
At the end of "Bring on the Night" The gang still knows nothing about the first evil(TFE).

2. At the end of NLM Spike is captured by the TFE and tortured, but he remains on the right side.
At the end of BotN, Spike's still a prisoner, still being tortured, and still good.

3. At the end of Never Leave Me, TFE releases some kind of uber vampire whom we all presume to be strong, cruel, and hard to kill.
During BotN, the uber vamp is revealed to be:
a) really strong
b) really cruel, and ....
c) really, really hard to kill. (who would have guessed?)

4. The last time we saw Giles in "Sleeper" we were left wondering whether he was alive or dead.

After and ENTIRE EPISODE of seeing Giles we are still left wondering if he's alive or dead.

5. In several episodes Willow expresses her concern that she may loose control of her majic and hurt her friends.

In BotN it is dramatically revealled that Willow is... really really concerned she might loose control and hurt her friends.

6. Throughout the season, hints are given that the newly introduced character of Principle Wood either knows something, or is up to something, but we've had no idea what.

In BotN, it's revealed that Principle Wood:
a)knows, uhh..., Something,
and is quite possibly
b) up to ... erm. Something else.
Glad that mystery is cleared up.

In short, NOTHING HAPPENED. You could have missed this episode entirely and still have all the information you would need to pick up the story after the holidays.

Furthermore, this episode did not really have any story of its own to compensate for the lack of movement on the major story arc.

I've got to leave now, but I'll try to get back to this before tomorrow.

-Shiraz

[> Re: Color Me Unimpressed Pt. 1 (spoilers up through 7.10) -- Rook, 17:02:21 12/18/02 Wed

Applying a rule that's intended to apply to a "tale" to one episode of a series is like applying to one single chapter of a book. One of the reasons Buffy appeals to many people is that it's episodes aren't all interchangable with each other, each coming with a "reset button" at the end. Each episode form part of a larger tapestry, the true value of which can only be fully appreciated when they are all taken as a whole.

As to your points:

1 - We learn that part of the 1st's agenda is killing the proto-slayers. So we have knowledge of its plans that we did not before.

2 - We saw Spike captured only for a few minutes in NLM. We saw the blood draining, not really any interaction between him and the first.

3 - Yes we presume this, but now we also have the knowledge that at least one of the traditional methods won't work. Again, we saw only a moment of the uber vamp in NLM, really just a teaser. Now we've seen it in action.

4 - True.

5 - And now we know that the first can disrupt her spells and possess her. Confirmation of her fears.

6 - True.

So...we get 2 new recurring characters, confirmation of several things we suspected, revelation of at least part of the first's plans, to see the uber vamp in action. And of course character development with Buffy deciding to make war on the 1st. No, not all of the mysteries were revelaed and all loose ends tied up...but that's why it's episode 10, and not episode 22.

Lots of stuff happened this episode...maybe you just missed it all because you were watching so hard for the things you had hoped to see.

[> [> Slightly OT - picking up Rook's flow. -- Briar Rose, 17:30:41 12/18/02 Wed

I am getting the impression that there are two things that may be shading some viewers POV about this season:

1) A dislike of SMG (the person) who is very likely making a career decision to end her contract versus the Character SMG plays who is doing some of her best acting work for BtVS in this season (IMO) that is coloring their reactions to Buffy (the character) right now.

2) The fact that BtVS is very likely ending as we know it with these next 12 eps - making this the "last season" - has made a lot of people bring impossible expectations to each ep.

I really think that a lot of the criticisms are based more on some peoples' perceptions of things outside of the actual story line than in the actual story being told.

This has happened in the past with shows that had lead characters leave. One great example was Spin City where no matter what they did - it was broken down to camps of "How dare you go on without M.J. Fox!" versus "Charlie Sheen should have been so much BETTER than what you're giving us!" That isn't the only show... more come to mind, including ER and Chicago Hope and MTM and M*A*S*H and ad nauseum.

But what is happening with SMG, ME, UPN, ASH or anyone else shouldn't be part of the BtVS STORY experience. It is what it always has been. There have been no changes. Not every episode has been about advancing story lines, many brought even more convolution to the mix along the way. It has never been about giving us a happy ending (or even a solid clue about where they are going with this) at the end of each episode. It hasn't even given us a clear cut answer at the end of most SEASONS!*LOL

As Rook already said in such an eloquent and succinct way:

This is a tapestry of many different threads of many different stories. It has all shades of gray and really has no endings or beginnings any where. It tells us everything and nothing at the same time. And most importantly? It challenges us all to see it, hear it and assimilate it through our own perceptions. There is no right, wrong, up, down, good, bad, hot or cold ultimatly. It is all about what WE the viewers see of the story being told.

And that is a great gift to the audience in this time of video pablum. I thank the Powers of ME & all involved for giving me that, and I just hope that something more is to come in some form and soon.

Sorry - very emotional about the whole "now waiting" thing so I'm overwrought. (Just like Dawn.*S*)

[> [> [> Strange leaps (and bounds!) -- Dariel, 18:58:17 12/18/02 Wed

Shiraz stated some criticisms of the episode. How do you make the leap to the idea that s/he 1) doesn't like SMG and is blaming it on the Buffy character (who, BTW, is never mentioned in Shiraz's post); 2) has impossible expectations due to the possible ending of the show; or 3) is even remotely interested in what the actors are doing outside of the show?

My point is that this board is here to analyze the show, not to analyze the posters. It just strikes me as rude, like talking about someone as if they're not in the room.

[> [> [> [> Dariel, not related to THIS post... More to posts when contracts came up and Buffy bashing past. -- Briar Rose (sorry - my bad. Hands slapped.), 09:58:46 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Good points -- curious, 19:08:54 12/18/02 Wed

Really good points about the prejudices. Another show that really stuck in my mind in reference to what you said about a core actor leaving is "Northern Exposure." People got so mad at Rob Marrow.

It also bugs me when viewers, (not necessarily here) get so wrapped up in romantic pairings that they have little patience or even interest in the actual story being told.

But I'm really enjoying this season. Its fast becoming my favourite season. And if SMG does leave the show, and I'm pretty sure she will, then I'm sure there will be plenty of spin off ideas to continue the Buffyverse. There's certainly no lack of talent.

[> [> Also...(BOtN Spoilers) -- Rob, 17:33:29 12/18/02 Wed

...we got confimation that these girls were, indeed, slayers-in-training. That hadn't been clear before.

And I agree about that not being a good way to judge a "Buffy" ep. "Buffy" the entire series on the whole is a long tale. Each episode is merely a chapter of a larger on-going narrative. If everything was moved forward in this episode, and everything was revealed, we'd have 11 episodes to go with nothing to do.

And Shiraz also greatly underappreciated the importance of the fight between Buffy and the Ubervamp, that finally led her to her episode-ending epiphany. Last week, this girl was ready to wait around to find out what the evil was up to. Now, she's ready to chase it down herself.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: what you said Rob and agree with your other posts too. -- curious, 18:23:15 12/18/02 Wed

A far cry from

"If the apopcalyse comes, beep me"

Iloved this ep. Technically, I thought the pacing was great. The action choreography was the best I've seen since "The Gift". The vampirus Neanderthalis reminded me of the liquid Terminator bent on destroying its prey with single minded purpose. Kudos to the stunt people and actors involved. I really winced my way through Buffy's 2nd beating.

Real smooth editing too. Solid directing. Brilliant acting. What more can I ask for?

Honestly, if you knew the couple of indie premieres I attended the last week, you'd know why I so appreciate even the very worst eps of Buffy.

[> [> [> Re: Also...(BOtN Spoilers) -- Shiraz, 18:51:27 12/18/02 Wed

But, for the most part, each episode, even the arc heavy episodes, contain complete stories. (with the obvious exception of those episodes with the words 'Part 1' in the title.) Each one has its own elements of conflict, development, and resolution. Here we just had the conflict.

As to the slayers in training, there was never really any doubt in my mind that thats who the girls were, their recurring appearances made no sense otherwise.

Also, while I do think Buffy's speach in at the end of BotN was fantastic, I don't really think she needed the fight with the uber-vamp to come to her realization. The First had made its itentions and its abilities quite clear before this.

Moreover, when in Never Leave Me did did Buffy say she was going to wait around for The First to make its next move? I thought it was clear she was giving orders to her crew so they could start fighting back.

-Shiraz

[> [> [> [> Just a possibility... -- OnM, 19:43:59 12/18/02 Wed

Technically, you are right Shiraz, on the surface there did seem to be very little happening, but I think that is what was intended.

I have the feeling that this move that Buffy has made to 'give them an apocalypse' as opposed to waiting for it to occur is somehow wrong. I'm not sure why I feel this way, because at the same time it was obvious that everyone else in the Scooby Gang and the SiT's really needed to hear an encouraging speech. But I think it may have been a bluff on Buffy's part-- she overheard them speaking about the FE and about her, and how badly she was hurt, and knew they were on the verge of panic. She didn't want another Annabelle (which of course, she also feels responsible for). Always the good leader, she did what she had to do to reassure 'the troops'.

I'm not sure the First can be 'defeated' by an agressive attack. I think that this is exactly what it wants-- the attack provides some kind of negative energy that it thrives upon.

Consider Spike's emphatic rejection of embracing further evil despite his tortures, and that he has openly cited Buffy's 'belief in him' as the reason. Watch the rage start to boil in the visage of Dru/FE when he says this. I think the FE is trying to provoke Buffy into fighting it, and if it succeeds, Buffy will lose.

So, at the moment, we appear to have action, but yet as you say, there is no real change in the 'situation'. Correct-- this is a balance, a pivot point in the season arc. Things can tip one way or the other from this point on, but we need to know where the fulcrum is located.

BTW, a hearty welcome to the genuine joys and pernicious perils of ep analysis!

;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I have a big question about the Giles VO scene...? -- curious, 20:23:13 12/18/02 Wed

I'll have to chew on your toughts. Interesting.

BTW since you mentioned in one of your reviews that you tend to rewatch eppys with CC on, I wondered if you noticed the COMPLETELY different CC text about Buffy's injuries as opposed to what Giles was actually saying. The words were not even remotely similar. I just thought its was really strange. Has this ever happened before?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: the Giles VO scene- text mismatch -- Silky, 18:29:41 12/19/02 Thu

**rewatch eppys with CC on, I wondered if you noticed the COMPLETELY different CC text about Buffy's injuries as opposed to what Giles was actually saying.**

Yes, I noticed this [I mentioned it in post already archived]. I can only think that they didn't want Buffy's injuries to be as bad as stated in the script [CC is from the script I believe].

[> [> [> [> [> What Joyce said about evil -- Dariel, 21:23:27 12/18/02 Wed

I have the feeling that this move that Buffy has made to 'give them an apocalypse' as opposed to waiting for it to occur is somehow wrong.

I think you're right, OnM. I know we're supposed to be suspicious of "Joyce," but what she said about the impossibility of defeating evil rang true. Joyce said that evil is everywhere, in everything, it's natural. In other words, it's part of the balance. Destroy the source of all evil and you destroy the balance.

[> [> [> [> [> [> and we've seen this imposition of balance before.. -- Helen, 01:19:31 12/19/02 Thu

I'm sure someone has made these points already but I'll wade in. Balance seems to be very important in the Buffyverse. In Superstar, Jonathan made himself into a paragon, but in order to balance out the con trick he'd pulled on the universe, we also got that big hairy thing. When Willow returned Buffy to life, the Scoobies got a "gift with purchase" to even the score.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What Joyce said about evil -- Tyreseus, 14:27:26 12/19/02 Thu

You know, I agree that we're supposed to be suspicious of Joyce, but I disagree that her speech rang true. Evil is everywhere, in everything, natural? I dunno? Sounds like a "come to the dark side" recruiting speech to me. Or at least a "don't try to fight it, cause you won't win" lecture. When has inaction in the face of evil ever been a good thing within the Buffyverse?

As I've read other comments here, I'm equally unsure that a frontal attack is a good idea. But the part of Buffy's speech about seeking out our worst fear and cutting the hearts out of them seems to me like the perfect metaphor for fighting true evil. You face the evil within yourself and conquer it. Ultimately, you cannot stop others from committing evil, but you can control your own actions. After that we get into social contracts and moral relativism, and the discussion gets a lot more complicated.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Just a possibility... -- amber, 02:00:26 12/19/02 Thu

>I think the FE is trying to provoke Buffy into fighting >it, and if it succeeds, Buffy will lose.

Not sure about that. Does the First hold the memories of the people it manifests as (ie. Dru, Warren, etc.) To some degree it seems to, and if this is the case then I think the closest example we have to the UberVamp is Glory.

Buffy couldn't physically fight Glory, she got her ass kicked every time, except in "The Gift". If the First is using past experience in its war against Buffy then it may think that sending out something as strong as the UberVamp will just make Buffy run and hide, or wait for the pending Apocalypse. Because more than anything she avoided physical contact with Glory.

[> [> [> [> Actually.......dialogue from "Bring on the Night" -- Rufus, 22:08:06 12/18/02 Wed

Moreover, when in Never Leave Me did did Buffy say she was going to wait around for The First to make its next move? I thought it was clear she was giving orders to her crew so they could start fighting back.

Yes, she did...Buffy made it clear that the Gang and SIT's were in a holding pattern til they knew more....

From notes and Closed Caption of "Bring on the Night"

When Willow got frightened of the power she has.....

Willow: IT'S STILL IN ME. I FEEL IT!

Buffy: NO, IT'S NOT. IT'S GONE. YOU'RE OK.

Willow: I DON'T WANT TO HURT ANYBODY. PLEASE, BUFFY, DON'T LET IT MAKE ME. OH, GOD.

Buffy: WE WON'T. I PROMISE, OK? I PROMISE. WE WON'T USE MAGIC TO FIGHT THIS THING UNTIL WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING.

Xander: AT LEAST LET ME COME WITH YOU. I'M GOING ALONE. YOU SAID YOURSELF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIGHT THE FIRST, OR EVEN WHERE IT IS.

Buffy: IT'S OUT THERE. IT'S HURTING MY FRIENDS. I'LL FIND IT.

Buffy has Willow on research standby attempting to find out as much as they can about the enemy. She also had told Xander to stay at the house while she went out to either work or patrol later.

When Giles arrived he came with Slayers in Training and a book along with some files...but Buffy was still keeping everyone on a holding pattern til the last part of the show...

Giles: YOU'RE EXHAUSTED.

Buffy: OH, IT COMES WITH THE GIG. SOMEHOW I DON'T THINK TAKING ON PREHISTORIC EVIL COMES WITH NAPTIME. SORRY, POTENTIAL GUYS. I KNOW YOU CAME A LONG WAY AND YOU WANT TO GET INTO IT, BUT THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW IS JUST SIT TIGHT. WAIT IT OUT. I'M GONNA GO TO WORK, SEE WHAT I CAN FIND OUT. I'LL BE BACK BEFORE SUNSET.

It is after the Ubervamp kills one of the SIT's and almost finishes Buffy does she decide to up the ante and go to war...she had used every tactic she could and had only suffered for it...leaving us the speech at the end.....

Xander: WHICH SQUARE WOULD THAT BE, EXACTLY?

Giles: I'M NOT SURE. THE FIRST PREDATES EVERYTHING WE'VE EVER KNOWN...OR CAN KNOW. IT'S EVERYWHERE. IT'S PURE. I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN FIGHT IT.

Buffy: YOU'RE RIGHT. WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIGHT IT. WE DON'T KNOW WHEN IT'LL COME. WE CAN'T RUN, CAN'T HIDE, CAN'T PRETEND IT'S NOT THE END, 'CAUSE IT IS. SOMETHING'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE TO TRY AND DESTROY THE WORLD. WE'VE BEATEN THEM BACK, BUT WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH THEM ANYMORE. WE'RE DEALING WITH THE REASON THEY EXIST. EVIL. THE STRONGEST.......... THE FIRST.

Giles: BUFFY, I KNOW...I--I KNOW YOU'RE--YOU'RE TIRED.

Buffy: I'M BEYOND TIRED. I'M BEYOND SCARED.I'M STANDING ON THE MOUTH OF HELL, AND IT IS GOING TO SWALLOW ME WHOLE. AND IT'LL CHOKE ON ME. WE'RE NOT READY? THEY'RE NOT READY. THEY THINK WE'RE GONNA WAIT FOR THE END TO COME, LIKE WE ALWAYS DO. I'M DONE WAITING. THEY WANT AN APOCALYPSE? OH, WE'LL GIVE 'EM ONE. ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS TO RUN...
DO IT NOW, 'CAUSE WE JUST BECAME AN ARMY. WE JUST DECLARED WAR. FROM NOW ON, WE WON'T JUST FACE OUR WORST FEARS. WE WILL SEEK THEM OUT. WE WILL FIND THEM AND CUT OUT THEIR HEARTS ONE BY ONE UNTIL THE FIRST SHOWS ITSELF FOR WHAT IT REALLY IS. AND I'LL KILL IT MYSELF. THERE IS ONLY ONE THING ON THIS EARTH MORE POWERFUL THAN EVIL, AND THAT'S US.
ANY QUESTIONS?

Bring on the Night did the job of proving that this apocalypse is one that makes the others look easy....no amount of debate or research has helped.....the enemy is deadly serious and did one big mistake, underestimated the amount of power that both sides have. Buffy is fed up and if the Hellmouth thinks she is going to be a nummy treat she has served notice that she will be a treat that becomes like a fishbone stuck in ones throat.

[> [> [> [> [> Deja Vue (warning : negative rambling) -- Etrangere, 02:34:53 12/19/02 Thu

Except that Glory was cooler than the Ubervamp (com'on this thing is ridiculous)

Not seriously, it's not that this episode was BAD, it was globally well made.
It's just I was so BORED all along. I mean, fight, torture, fight, torture... picture me snoring.

There were two things interesting : what Joyce said about evil and the slayers in waiting (except we never understnad why Annabelle got so stupid as to run away from Buffy's house).

That's all. Sorry if i wasn't much moved by Buffy's speech at the end... it was well delivered, but she did that kind of things a hundred times before and to my ears it was all blah blah blah. As for Spike's "she does. She believes in me." Ooooh, that's sweet... WHEN THE FRELL (yeah i've been hooked by farscape, what do you want, i've got to get something to replace my firefly junk, yeah i know this sounds kind of stranger, but look at it this way, i've still go 4 seasons and more of farscape to watch) ARE YOU GOING TO STAND FOR YOUR OWN, SPIKE ? I'm starting to loose patience with him, really.

And I hate, hate, hate when they torture a character because he was bad but going on redemptive and they have to make him suffer so it's ok. Making people suffer doesn't make it ok. Is there something with the state of Vampire with a soul that implies being tortured also ?

Oh, and I don't like more bad treatment of uncapable of defense!Andrew than i liked the bad treatment of chipped!Spike (well at least that one was sometimes funny because even chipped Spike could, at that time, stand his ground with witty replies). I like scary!Sawn, not sadist!Dawn.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Deja Vue (warning : negative rambling) -- Rufus, 03:00:21 12/19/02 Thu

And I hate, hate, hate when they torture a character because he was bad but going on redemptive and they have to make him suffer so it's ok. Making people suffer doesn't make it ok. Is there something with the state of Vampire with a soul that implies being tortured also ?

Where did I say that torture is okay, it may be inescapable for some but it's not okay. I wonder if the torture inflicted by the First and Ubervamp hurts less than the self torturous thoughts that Spike has had since he got his soul back......remember he wasn't exactly a non-torturing guy as a vampire. Torture is in the show because it's a horror show for one, and I can't think of anything less horrific than torture, and the types and differences in the administration of torture define each side of the battle. Remember, Spike is being tortured by the First, not Buffy, which should be a refreshing change for some fans...;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Deja Vue (warning : negative rambling) -- Ete, 03:25:10 12/19/02 Thu

Oh, I never meant you said that. I just answered your post, and from there put everything I hated about this episode ^_^

About torture, yes, it's often used in Buffy as a metaphore for emotionnal / moral suffering. That's why Angel got himself tortured so often, and so does Spike now too. I just mean that I find that it's getting tired. And because I hated the use of torture of Willow in Same Time, Same Place that was supposed to get us feel sorry for her... Anya's getting a sword thrust through her heart was more imaginative and well done I though. SK has made a great post ona thread down about the frequency of torture in ME shows and I agree with her in that the question is wether the torture has some kind of plot value, character evolution or not.
Of course you could say that it served the purpose of showing Spike's new strength of character in confronting the Big Bad, thanks to Buffy's words... but, really, I find that cheesy. And I wish that his strength of character didn't come from Buffy. I though the point of giving him a soul was to avoid the redemtption through love. Look at me i'm rambling again ! ^_^
Another critism I want to make, but is hard to define, is that i think that a scene of torture should be very intense, emotionnaly speaking, almost intimate. I didn't got that impression at all, I felt no tension. Just like i was disapointed to feel no tension in Willow's torturing Warren in Villains. Even Spike's replies to the FE felt tired. When he did that kind of rebutting to Glory in Intervention, it was cool, when he did it during his trials in 2 to Go / Grave, it was in character and served to show him getting emotionnaly stripped as the trials went on. There, you knew before he said a word what kind of things he would say.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Deja Vue (warning : negative rambling) -- Rufus, 05:31:29 12/19/02 Thu

Though Spike says that "Buffy believes in him" I think that she can only be inspiration, if he were weak in character, nothing she could have said would have made the difference. I also think the torture scene is a parallel to Intervention, so I wonder how Buffy will react when or if she does see Spike again? Spike in Bring on the Night was sounding a bit more like he has pre-ensoulment. I don't think Spike thought of Buffy believing in him as a declaration of love, I think he took it to mean that if she could believe in him, he could begin to believe in himself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also, as far as torture goes -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:19:26 12/19/02 Thu

They tortured Spike plenty before they sent him on a redemptive mission. He's been shot with a bunch of arrows (Pangs), had an organ break his spine (What's My Line), got beaten badly by Glory and minions (Intervention), beaten up by Buffy (Dead Things), his severe injuries while fighting (Two to Go/Grave) (officially, the ME writers have said that without a soul Spike couldn't be on the path to redemption, so I count these). Then there's being tasered by the Initiative (Wild at Heart), having a plastic stake stabbed through his heart (Listening to Fear), and numerous occasions when he's grabbed a cross, wandered into sunlight, tried to hurt someone, causing the chip to go off, and just getting his face punched in.

I think that Spike and Angel have been tortured so much, not just because of the whole redemption arc thing, but because you can torture vampires in more ways (through crosses, holy water, or sunlight), and inflict much more torture without killing them or leaving them incapacitated for a long time (prodigous healing powers and resistence to all but a few forms of death at work there). If Xander or Giles had been inflicted with the sort of torture that Spike or Angel have gone through, they would have been killed. Those two characters are tortured more because they CAN be tortured more.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, as far as torture goes -- Etrangere, 17:25:42 12/19/02 Thu

They tortured Spike plenty before they sent him on a redemptive mission.
Depends what you mean by "redemptive mission"

He's been shot with a bunch of arrows (Pangs)
Played for comical effect, doesn't count.

had an organ break his spine (What's My Line)
That was an attack, not torture.

got beaten badly by Glory and minions (Intervention)

Yeah getting tortured for not wanting to reveal that the Key is Dawn doesn't count as redemtive mission. Right. *snerk*

beaten up by Buffy (Dead Things)
Huh... actually I think that one was a different metaphore (Spike as Buffy's Shadow and Buffy's autodestructive impulses) but he had certainly a Martyr pause as he said "put it all on me"... Not redemptive as such, but well meant.

his severe injuries while fighting (Two to Go/Grave) (officially, the ME writers have said that without a soul Spike couldn't be on the path to redemption, so I count these).

I don't care what ME says. They write the episodes, we analyse them.

Then there's being tasered by the Initiative (Wild at Heart)
The first stade of being reborn, by that time it was all about the chip of course, but the torture by the Initiative to demons was the first point about them deserving... well some kind of humanity.

having a plastic stake stabbed through his heart (Listening to Fear)

It was Into the Wood. Actually very shrewd of Riley : an impotente (but still painful) stake against an impotent vampire (which is also very painful), and that in the context of the whole sucking blood metaphore (Buffy sucking Dracula's blood from his finger, Riley having his blood sucked by the vamp-ho... can you say fellation metaphore ?), and the fact that Riley can't "satisfy" Buffy who goes out hunting every night... (again cf BvsD)

and numerous occasions when he's grabbed a cross, wandered into sunlight, tried to hurt someone, causing the chip to go off, and just getting his face punched in.

How many times did he grabbed a cross, forgetting it would hurt him ? Yeah, i call it a part of redemptive path, or humanity path
Same thing for stubbornly going out to sunlight.
As for the chip.

The whole point was some kind of rehabilitation.

[> [> Re: What we know, vs. characters -- amber, 01:49:38 12/19/02 Thu

I think one of the important things to make clear about this ep. it that the characters learned things we (the audience) already knew, or already guessed. We've been throwing around the terms UberVamp and First for a few weeks, but now the Scoobies are using them too.

The people on this board obviously spend a lot of time thinking about the episodes, hence we figure stuff out, like that the BB is the First. Other viewers who are less active fans, probably learned more from this ep. than we did. Trust me, I know some of these people.

I think if anything this ep. moves us in a direction of hope. Yep, Buffy's beaten badly and may have internal injuries (and just as an aside, why the heck couldn't they take her to the hospital, or have Willow do a healing spell?) and Spike is being tortured to death (or tortured to...I don't know what, cause he's already dead technically.)

Still by the end of the ep. Buffy and Spike both reach the same conclusion, being good is the best weapon against the First. More than external action this ep. is about internal conflict. Buffy goes from hopeless despair to the offensive, "I'm standing on the mouth of hell and this thing's going to swallow me...and it's going to choke." Hope. Last ep. we saw Spike and he was telling Buffy how bad he is and how she needs to kill him. Now he's chosing to be good, because he believes he can, because "she believes in me." Again hope.

Even Andrew who appears to be in this episode mostly for laughs, is moving in a new direction. (slowly...very slowly) He admits to Buffy he's never been good, but he's considering it with his Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi simile. Also again later, when he talks to Xander about Buffy being a good leader. Give him a few more eps. and some more conviction that Warren is just a First Evil manifestation and he'll be applying for a membership in the Scooby Gang.

[> Barthes has declared the author dead.... -- Rochefort, 17:38:59 12/18/02 Wed

So clearly the sloppy writing is the fault of the film crew. Or the other writers on ME who didn't step in and DO something to help. If the author is dead, what about the executive producer? Does she shoulder any of the burden? Otherwise I'll just blame... Spike.

[> [> Pardon my ignorance.. -- Shiraz, 18:58:25 12/18/02 Wed

Who's Barthes and why does it matter that they've declared the author dead?

[> [> [> no need for pardon. its a dumb theory. -- Rochefort, 19:13:35 12/18/02 Wed

Barthes wrote this dumb article in France about how theoretically we can't treat the author anymore. We can never know an author's intention, we can only write about how readers respond to texts. I agree with you about the poorness of the episode. I just wanted someone to blame.

[> [> [> [> hot button -- luna, 20:13:56 12/18/02 Wed

But you know, boards like this really illustrate B.'s point. Sorry he wasn't around to see the growth of the community of readers (viewers, in this case). I for one think that the multitude of interpretations we get here is much richer than the writers' limited intentions, and it's fine that we suggest many possiblities that may never have been part of what the writers meant.

[> [> [> [> [> good point, that. -- Rochefort, 20:41:03 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> So agree. -- Deb, 21:16:28 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Fair enough, but -- Captain Pugwash, 03:22:33 12/19/02 Thu

He is just another annoying French critic that has made a career out of stating the obvious, being obscure, or obscuring the obvious.

(wasted too much of my life studying French nonsense)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Huk, if I get french bashing in *this* board, where will I go ? -- Ete, 03:32:29 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> There are plenty of Francophiles here too! -- Rahael, 03:36:34 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Absolutely ... its those Belgians you have to watch out for -- Helen, 03:53:08 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Or maybe Midget... -- Ete, 05:32:23 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> hmm...also a good point -- Rochefort, 16:17:08 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah! And there is where his genius lies!! -- Deb -- who knows the obvious is hard to find sometimes., 17:34:25 12/19/02 Thu

Some ideas (spoilers 7.10 and lots of spec) -- HonorH, 19:05:03 12/18/02 Wed

This ep makes you think, doesn't it? I've thought myself into several corners already. Let's see if I can hash some of it out:

Joyce: I think this was either the Real Deal or Buffy's subconscious telling her something she needs to know. First of all, Joyce was right--Buffy needs to sleep, to give herself time to heal, and to not try to bear the weight of the world alone, or let anyone else place it upon her. I also think Joyce is right about the First Evil not being defeatable. Buffy won't be able to kick this thing's ass. But she can spoil its plans. More later.

Giles: Okay, something was off about him. I don't think he's a manifestation of the FE; that's too obvious. We're left with a few possibilities, then:

1) This is Giles, and he's seriously shaken. The destruction of the Watchers has affected him even more than he's let on, and he's having a crisis of confidence. His mind is working in exactly the wrong way. He's focusing on defeating this thing the way they've defeated all other Big Bads, but he doesn't think they can actually do it. Buffy's defeat by the Uber-Vamp only strengthened his hopelessness.

2) It's Giles under the influence of the FE. It's affecting him more subtly than it affected Spike, causing him to despair and place a heavier burden on Buffy.

3) It's not Giles in the flesh; it's a mental projection of same from a badly-weakened Giles in England. That's my far-out theory, btw.

Buffy: believes she needs to take the fight to the FE. Now, while being proactive seems like a good idea, I'm not convinced going in with a "kick its ass" attitude will do a world of good. What do I think the answer is? Let's consult Spike for that.

Spike: Under torture, under guilt, under severe psychological manipulation, Spike finds his strength in Buffy's belief. His refusal to give in to the FE--his refusal to be so much as tempted--has frustrated it badly, from the look on "Dru's" face. He's almost serene. And I think therein lies the answer.

This thing can't be fought. It can be countered, its plans and agents can be fought, but the FE itself can't be defeated. Buffy was right about one thing: she and her friends are stronger than the FE, but their strength lies in their hearts, not in their limbs. I think that's what this is all leading up to. As long as they preserve some good, the FE cannot win.

[> Re: yes it certainly does -- curious, 19:38:38 12/18/02 Wed

Jumbled contributions.

Agree about Joyce. I personally think she is the real deal. I think she is alerting Buffy to the fact that evil and good are always here and always will be here. Despite the adult greyscale we live in, in the end, we have to choose which end of the scale we want to fight for.

Giles: I really don't think he's The First. Though the writers desperately wants us to think that. So therefore, he is not. I do think that Giles is shielding himself from loosing his slayer again. We knew how unbearable that was for him. I think this has something to do with his behaviour though not all of it.

Don't really agree about Buffy. The way I read it, was that she wants to take the offensive in stripping away The First's disguises layer by layer until it is forced to show its true form. (If it even has one). Then they can have a better chance at stopping it.

Spike made me think of Mathew in prison, enduring his tortures gladly because he has placed his faith in God and God will not abandon him. (I might have remembered that wrong though. I just remembered the gist of it.)

I think at the very end when Buffy says that "they are more powerful than evil" I took it to mean that "love" was the one thing more powerful than evil. I just think that the writer, (probably Petrie) decided to use "the Scoobs" as a representation for love because actually saying that may come off as a bit corny. Afterall, isn't that what the Scoobs represent. And doesn't love always hold the forces of darkness at bay. At least thats what I'd like to believe. Although I could be entirely wrong.

[> [> Re: yes it certainly does -- amber, 01:33:13 12/19/02 Thu

I would say the scoobs represent "good" rather than love. They fight the good fight, if evil is always with us, then so is good and no matter what the danger was the Scoobies have always fought for good, or to save the world. It never occurs to them to throw in the towel and in the end their goodness has always prevailed. I think that's where Buffy's speech was going, rather than "we'll save the world with love."

As for Spike, he used to be bad. The First considers all bad people its minions. I'm guessing that in the First's mind Evil is the right side to be on. To the First it doesn't make sense to be good. That's why it's so frustrated by Spike. I don't think it can understand why someone whose been on the evil side for so long would suddenly become so determined to be good.

It seems to me that the First is particularly offended by bad people who go good. It's certainly done more to torment Willow, Spike and Angel (back in S3:Ammends) than it has to characters who have spent most of their life on the good side. Xander has been completely ignored by it. Buffy has now had several major physical fights with the UberVamp, but aside from that she's been ignored by the First to some degree.

In "Conversations with Dead People" we're not even sure if Buffy's dead person was a manifestation of the FE or not. Though I'm guessing not, because she was able to dust her vamp friend, and we've been told by Warren and Giles that the FE can't take a physical form (hence if that vamp had been FE there wouldn't have been any dust?)

I'm am kind of curious why the First isn't targeting Anya the way it does Willow and Spike, since Anya also has been a "bad agent" who went good. Mind you, Anya currently has no extrodinary powers (some magic skill, average human strength) so perhaps the First doesn't see her as a threat the way it does Willow and Spike, who still have power.

[> [> [> Forget the dust (Conversations Spoilers) -- Darby, 07:57:25 12/19/02 Thu

Webs couldn't have been a direct image from the First because he and Buffy fought.

It's difficult to imagine a scenario where Webs really is an agent of the First, because too much of what happened was unpredictable, especially to His Evilness. Why wouldn't Buffy just stake him - she has staked people she's known a lot better. Getting her to stop and listen requires a better knowledge of her than the First has. And the manipulation level in the Vampire therapy session implied a deep understanding of Buffy, someone inherently good, which we've seen the First is lousy at grasping.

Could Webs have been sent by whatever is sending Joyce, to help Buffy gain the stability she needs (but doesn't necessarily have - Joyce is also trying to help "center" her) for the conflict to come? Could it have known that Buffy would not just stake Spike, but would find out why he had gone back to killing, and through that find out about the First?

Hmmmmm....

[> [> I agree re: Buffy's final speech. (BOTN spoilers) -- Rob, 12:09:28 12/19/02 Thu

I loved the way it was written, because for a moment, I felt a cringe coming on, just as she got to the part that there's one thing more powerful than evil. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was preparing to groan when she said "love," but she didn't... She said "Us" and that one little word made the speech so more powerful and awe-inducing. Kudos to Petrie or Noxon, whoever decided to word it like that.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: I agree re: Buffy's final speech. (BOTN spoilers) -- Rook, 04:07:56 12/20/02 Fri

As she was getting to the end of the speech, I was feeling she was going to say "Me" instead of "Us"...it's definitely what the Buffy of early seasons would have said. So, if nothing else, the speech does a good job of highlighting the character development Buffy's gone through over the past 7 years.

[> [> [> Saying "Love" would be inconsistent -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:43:09 12/20/02 Fri

ME's take on love has always been much more complex than the one traditionally used in society of "love is good and conquers all". I do think they believe love is a powerful force, but that it isn't always a good thing.

"Some Assembly Required" - for the love of his brother, a young boy goes into grave robbery and almost commits murder.

"Surprise/Innocence" - if Buffy and Angel had never fallen in love, Angelus wouldn't have been set free to wreak pain and destruction.

"I Only Have Eyes For You" - a boy's love pushes him to murder when he reaizes his girlfriend wants to call it quits.

"Beauty and the Beasts" - see above, only more violent.

"Lover's Walk" - Spike's answer to getting Drusilla to love him again is to torture her.

"Dopplegangland - Graduation Day Part I" - it was implied that Faith never would have gone as dark as she did if it weren't for the love that the Mayor provided.

I can't really think of an example from Season 4. If anyone else can think of one, I'd much appreciate it.

"Riley's arc story" - Riley loved Buffy, but didn't think she loved him, so he pursued a self-destructive path filled with Initiative steroids, needlessly dangerous displays of his masculinity, and vampire hookers.

"Spike's Season Five arc story" - through Season 5 we get to see a great deal of love perverted into stalking and obsession. This culminates in "Crush" where Drusilla's love for Spike leads her to try to bring him back to her side, and Spike's love for Buffy leads him to chaining her up and threatening her with his ex-girlfriend.

"I Was Made to Love You" - the robot, April, is only programmed to love. But, when she discovers her love is not recieved, she goes psycho killer. Buffy and Warren even had this conversation:

Buffy: "Is she (April) dangerous?"

Warren: "She's only programmed to love me."

Buffy: "That means she's dangerous."

Lastly: "Intervention" - the First Slayer does say that Buffy is full of love and that it makes her stronger, but she says it's because "love is pain; the Slayer forges strength from pain".

Granted, there are also probably more numerous examples where ME has shown the positive and good aspects of love. However, they have already admitted many times that love can work for destruction and even evil, not just for good. Keeping this history in mind, saying that the only thing in the world more powerful than evil is love not only would be corny, it would be inconsistent with what they've been telling us for years.

[> finding his strength... -- lulabel, 20:55:43 12/18/02 Wed

I agree that Spike is somehow pivotal (though I haven't a clue why). I got this impression from the first episode of the season when the FE was putting so much effort into convincing Spike that he's a "schmuck". Why waste so much effort on some miserable ensouled vampire unless he really matters?

The final scene with Spike where he declares that his strength comes from Buffy's belief in him reminded me very much of Riley in Goodbye Iowa. Riley in that situation had lost everything that he believed in, he had been stripped of everything that mattered to him - except Buffy. The closing scene of Riley, alone in his hospital bed, clinging to the kerchief that Buffy had given him, resonants perfectly with Spike's current predicament.

[> Interesting thoughts, all -- some more questions and spec. -- yez, 14:59:45 12/19/02 Thu

I don't know what's going on, but some thoughts.

The first time the First decides to involve itself directly, it's to convince a vampire with a soul to choose to kill himself -- Angel. The second time the First appears to us, it's chipping away at the sanity of another vampire with a soul -- and we now know that it was "brainwashing" Spike into murdering and siring. It's also now taken the time to kidnap and torture Spike, seemingly intent on getting Spike to choose evil. Apparently, just killing Spike doesn't accomplish something the First needs or desires because the First has had ample opportunity to do that.

And was it just me, or did Spike's near-drowning pool remind anyone of the pool in the Master's cave where he drowned Buffy?

Anyway, so why vampires with souls? Why is the First obsessed with this? Why is it important for these vamps to either choose evil or to kill themselves? Could this be related to the prophecy mentioned on AtS? And if it's just a matter of the First being enraged by demons that choose good, then why not go after Anya, as someone else asked?

So who are the others that the First tries to manipulate? Dawn, the Key (if we assume that the Joyce she saw was the First -- which may not be safe) and Willow, the most powerful Wicca around -- a witch which has already tried once to change Dawn back into a key and may only have not succeeded because of Buffy's interferance. The First tries to convince Willow not to use magic (and to be safe, just to off herself), and tries to convince Dawn not to trust Buffy at a crucial moment.

Posters who have brought up the fact that in Buffy's speech, everyone expects her to say love is stronger, but instead she says "us." She also declares war on the First and asks everyone to choose sides. While this kind of rhetoric is understandable under the circumstances, I'm worried about it. Because maybe the answer really was "love," but instead, Buffy's now focused on something that is not love -- war. I don't think it's a coincidence that she talks of "ripping out the hearts" of every opponent the First sends their way.

I'm on the fence about whether we're seeing the "real" Joyce. While it's true that advising someone to rest is probably good advice, it still may be reverse psychology as it's coming from a figure Buffy doesn't trust. On the other hand, her speech about evil being a part of nature, just like the sun rising and setting, etc., sounded suspiciously like the information that's going to be crucial for Buffy to figure things out later. And we've had enough foreshadowing through the series that I have to think it's going to come down to Buffy finally confronting the dark source of her power -- confronting the evil within herself. I can't wait for Faith's appearance. Not only was Faith representative of Buffy's dark side, but Buffy's attempt to feed Faith to Angel was probably the closest she's ever come to forsaking her calling, values, etc. -- her dark side.

yez

[> [> Well known future casting spoiler above -- Sophist, 17:22:29 12/19/02 Thu

archetypes -- Marie, 05:58:52 12/19/02 Thu

I am new at this but, I have been thinking about Jungian philosophy all season. It began with a discussion of power. Many of the episodes focus on power, on the balance of power, right and wrong, good and bad. I think that The First, indefinable as it is, clearly is supposed to predate writing. It is universal, a universal archetype of evil. It has always been, but has no specific form. The kind of power to fight such evil is not physical; it is internal. The First tempted the Scoobies through mental manipulation. It set up the choice, they could move toward good or evil, and in each case the choice was personal. Jung told us that the journey of our lives was to know ourselves. We are to individualize through self knowledge. We must accept our complexity, our personal capacity to be light or dark. We need to fit ourselves together with our evil ìdarkî selves and our good ìlightî selves. Buffy took a walk on the dark side last season interacting with Spike in ways she found to be inexplicable but necessary at the time. She explored her own dark side, and at the end of the season made the choice toward good. That takes power. We watched her struggle with herself, disgusted yet compelled to know the depth of her own capacity for dark deeds. The evil in this series has always been both internal and external. It has been about people finding their way in a big bad world. Buffy has become a ìheroî (in Angel they use the word ìchampionî). Hasnít the point of mythology always been the heroes make choices, they are not all good, and they too struggle with the power within themselves?
Obviously these shows are attractive because, like all great stories, they deal with universal themes. It is no fair getting to a higher consciousness without a struggle. Buffy is facing her ultimate struggle, against The First. She has prepared for this struggle not by being stronger, although she is, but by facing heaven and hell in the last two seasons. Thatís about as clearly good and bad, light and dark as it gets. Pure Jung.

[> In case anyone's thinking I suddenly grew some brains - no, this isn't me! -- Marie, 06:27:49 12/19/02 Thu

But hello and welcome, anyway, new Marie!

The other one...

[> Welcome new Marie -- Caroline, 13:03:11 12/19/02 Thu

to the Board. To avoid confusion you may probably wish to use a different name - we already have a lovely, if rather self-deprecating, Marie here. For more Jung-y goodness, have a look at the archives for the last few months of last season - lots of good stuff on Jung there. Once again, welcome! Post more!

But I would dispute with you that Buffy has truly accomodated her dark side. Perhaps she has come a long way on a purely personal level but she has yet to resolve these issues when it comes to her slayer power and its source. Is it rooted in darkness? And how will she accomodate it if it is?

[> Re: archetypes -- JM, 17:58:36 12/19/02 Thu

I really don't know any Jung other than Meyers-Briggs, but I do find that interesting, if not air tight.

It does make me think a little about Spike in this ep. I wonder if Morphy was attempting to use physical pain because before his little talk with Buffy, this would have been effective. Not because pain would break him, we know it really doesn't, but because the dark side of his souled self thought that this was what he deserved. That the guilt and the torment and the self-punishment, with the beating his head, scratching his chest, burning himself on the cross was the point of his existence. That Morphy thought that giving Spike this pain (which it is capable of for the first time) would convince him that this is where he belongs, down here in the dark with Morphy. Because "He has it coming." Spike knows his, and William's, darkside, his little talk with Buffy is helping to allign him with his light side for the first time in a long while. Or I'm a bit off. In conclusion and topic.

Either way welcome to the world's best board.

[> [> Re: archetypes -- JM, 19:23:06 12/19/02 Thu

Just clarifying, it's not your post I don't find air tight, but personality typing like Meyers-Briggs.

Bring On The Night (Spoilers &Spec ) -- WalkingGhost and The Pocket Editor, 03:43:36 12/18/02 Wed

The Ghost and I ("I" being the Pocket Editor), were discussing the latest episode, Bring on the Night, the one in which Buffy has her first encounter with the Tulakhan, or so-called Uber-vampire, and gets her butt royally kicked. This is also the episode where Giles returns to Sunnydale, dragging along three slayers-in-training. We also encounter the First torturing Spike while taking the form of Dru.

Now that we have kicked out the spoilers up front, we can get to the meat of our conjectures. This episode touches on questions that have been simmering throughout the season, with topics pertaining to Giles, Spike, and the Principal, Robin Wood, and other miscellaneous topics.

So let's start with Giles. We think that we can all agree that there is something more going on with his return to Sunnydale than the obvious. When we last saw him, he was about to be beheaded by one of the Bringers. We don't know if he lived or died, but unless there was some kind of miracle, he likely died. Since Buffy was nowhere near that area, a miracle was unlikely. Combine this with the knowledge that the First can only take the image of one who is dead, we suspect that Giles may only be a ghost meant to mislead Buffy. We do note several things, however, both for and against this theory, including where he sat on the arm of the couch and leaned against the wall, but also noting that he has eaten nothing and touched no other person (no "hello" hug for Buffy or anyone else)since his arrival. He somehow managed to burgle the Watcher's Council HQ without them being aware something was missing and while they were looking for him. Of course, we also know that someone managed to plant an explosive in their HQ without them noticing that, either. Big oversight on their part, as we're sure all can agree.

So, is he actually FE incarnate or is the real Giles laid out barely alive on a bed somewhere and somehow managing to project himself, or is the Coven that gave him the power to fight Wicked-Willow giving him power again?

If he was FE incarnate, then he is, as someone previously said, infiltrating to depress the group and/or mislead them as well as gain intelligence on their future actions. Of course, we have to wonder why he bothered bringing the slayers-in-training (hereforth called SITS), but one could suppose that they were his "credentials" to gain the trust of the others. Or the SITS could be some kind of demon in little girl disguise, just waiting for the right moment to spring forth and do really mean things to the Scoobies.

On a side note, it seems interesting that the Scoobies were somewhat reluctant to give the SITS weapons. Being potential Slayers, it seems logical that they would already have some weapons training, perhaps more than the Scoobies, training nearly as intense as Buffy herself. Also, we find it interesting to note that the Watcher's Council felt that these girls were the only ones who could be slayers, and that if they (and Buffy, and Faith) died, there would be no more Slayers. This strikes us as short-sighted, for the Slayer is chosen, not by man, but by destiny. Even the FE seems to think this, or so we hear from Giles during their supposition on the reasons for the killings of the Watchers and the SITS.

Now on to Spike. Just what does the FE want with him, this one vampire out of thousands attracted to the Hellmouth? There was some conjecture that the soul that Spike received was tainted, supplied by FE, and so Spike is along for the ride whether he wants to be or not (FE/Dru's comment to Spike, "What makes you think you have a choice?" after he said he was finished with them).

If he was indeed supplied with the soul by FE, and the FE needs him for something more, then what does it need him for? We conjecture that the FE may use Spike as a receptacle for his own essence. We think that this may require, to some extent, Spike's cooperation, or at least the breaking of Spike's will. But it's not only Spike's will for now that he has William's soul it's both that need to be broken. When FE asks, "What makes you think you have a choice? What makes you think you will ever be any good at all in this world?" And Spike answers, "She does. Because she believes in me." If this is the case, FE should realize that what it plans will not be as easy as it thinks.

On to Robin Wood. They have been playing this character in such a way that anyone watching will naturally become suspicious of him. First, he knew (as we learned) exactly where the seal was, which was a point for him on the bad. He also left the seal untouched, unless he was returning to bury it when Buffy and Dawn encountered him in the basement. He buried Johnathan's body, which could be a point for him on the good.

So just who or what is Principal Wood? We see him as a logical candidate for a Watcher-type, the same mentoring role as Giles without the Council affiliation. We think that in his speech to Buffy on her first day of return to work (when he saw her typing the search for "Manifestations of Evil"), he was hinting that he knew what was going on not only with the seal, but with Buffy as well. He may not know she is the "Slayer" but he may have realized her importance in the fight against evil.

So, we come to another topic. What exactly is this test about? Everyone seems to be telling her that she can't win. Even FE states (as Dru, to Spike) that there are no winner's but there are sides to be chosen. What if this whole hoopla is about which side the Spike-with-a-soul will choose? What if this is more of a test of Buffy's resolve in the face of an unwinnable scenario, the Kobayashi-Maru of Slayerdom? We have her mother telling that evil is not on its way, that it has always been here. We don't think Buffy can defeat FE (if that is truly what she must do) because FE is the evil that is in everyone.

Truly, we will be disappointed if the actual answer is not at least as complex as our own suppositions.

We tried in vain to post last night, but AOL's web servers were down in our area. What are we paying for again?
Walking Ghost and The Pocket Editor

[> Nice post -- KdS, 07:01:01 12/18/02 Wed

Welcome to both of you (don't think I've seen you on this board before)

[> I have a theory (Spoilers &Spec ) -- Caroline, 08:53:19 12/18/02 Wed

That there is another potential slayer in Sunnydale and that Principal Wood is that person's watcher. Another back to the beginning reference - Giles the new librarian becomes Buffy's watcher. Of course, this would have to involved Faith dying so that this new slayer can be activated. Wood was really creepy in BOTN but this could just be misdirection. Or he could be evil (god, I totally suck at spec).

As for Giles - there are many possibilities. He could be dead and we are seeing the first, he could be alive and trapped somewhere and we are seeing the first, or it really could be him and he's just acting strangely because he's very insecure about his capacity to assist Buffy right now. My own theory is the latter (see my response to shadowkat's post). But, again, I could be wrong.

Thanks for the good post.

[> [> Oops - well known future casting spoiler but otherwise all spec. -- Caroline (the unspoiled), 09:01:03 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> horrible thought (speculation, spoilers for 7.10) -- Vickie, 09:19:59 12/18/02 Wed

Wood is FE. We never saw him until the FE was active. What if good ol' Robin Wood came by early to check out his school, was killed by some "accidental evil", and every time we've seen him on screen he was actually FEWood?

Ew.

[> [> [> Re: horrible thought (speculation, spoilers for 7.10) -- Rook, 13:43:41 12/18/02 Wed

Then he wouldn't have been able to carry/bury Jonathan

[> [> [> [> Right you are! -- Vickie, 19:12:21 12/18/02 Wed

I'd claim it was the cold medication, but it's probably just my stupidity made me overlook that.

So Robin is saved, sort of. He can be a minion, willing or unwilling, but not FEWood. Good. Maybe when the Scoobs rescue Spike they can save a side of Wood as well.

[> My bizarre new theory based on rewatching 7.10(spoilers Normal Again/Bring on the Night) -- shadowkat, 17:49:47 12/18/02 Wed

(Assuming I can post this - the computer I'm on is slow and haven't been able to post on it for awhile..)

In rewatching Bring on The Night specifically the dream sequences with Joyce and the sequences with Wood - I was struck by something incredibly odd.

Joyce says in Buffy's dreams:

1. You need to wake up, Buffy
2. Buffy - evil is already here. It's natural it's in us all, everyone. You can't defeat it. That's not your responsibility. Buffy you need to wake up..

Wood says to effect:
1. I don't like to recommend evil or horror movies to kids.
Once you see true pure evil it changes you - you can never really forget it.
2. I prefer mysteries, to get to what lies underneathe it all in the end.

Wood in that scene reminded me of the Psychologist in Normal Again. Joyce reminded me of Joyce in Normal Again.

Then I thought about Dawn's vision. This time Buffy will not choose you. Last year in Normal Again she did.

What if this is really all just happening in Buffy's head? What if the fact that she is now facing the root of all evil is the culmination of her own issues - what if the war going on in Buffyverse is the war in Buffy's psyche - the war to accept her own rival selves and grow past despair and grow up instead of staying the heroine in her fantasy world? (I don't like this theory very much btw - think it's sort of lame...but, it makes an odd sort of sense and would explain some off stuff.) This theory would also enable SMG
to leave Btvs and keep Ats on air and even let someone in Btvs do a spin-off.

Also in her therapy session - the one she falls asleep during and Joyce tells her evil is in all of us - the kid, Roger - is despairing. He tells her she's just like all the rest - doesn't care. Could this be a projection?

I'm probably way off base...but it occured to me that this might be what ME is pulling.

Hoping I'm wrong - SK (assuming this posts...)

[> [> that occured to me and I was also thinking.... -- Rochefort, 18:07:41 12/18/02 Wed

that there will definitely be a different resolution to this than Buffy's plan to "cut hearts out" and "kill it myself." The First Evil/The First Slayer are connected. The kill. If the First Evil created the First Slayer to kill and destroy, then Buffy needs a fundumental rejection of violence and the evil inside (because the first evil is the evil inside). So she's got to do a Ghandi or something. But for me as well, this episode definitely brought me back to Normal Again.

[> [> [> Would certainly explain some surreal tidbits (7.10 spoilers) -- shadowkat, 18:51:19 12/18/02 Wed

Glad I wasn't the only one to see NA.

But when I think back on it - some portions of the episode seemed well odd to me. I mention them to some extent in first impressions:

1. Giles - he seems almost like well a shadow of himself, the obvious metaphor for authority yet not terribly effective, just expounds on doom and gloom and how the world will end and Buffy must save us all...nothing like the Giles we've seen before. And no one/nothing touches him. (Yes - he could be FE...but it is surreal)

2. Dawn and Anya's bonding over the sadistic torture or desire to torture Andrew felt off to me. Why is Dawn doing it?

3. The Slayers in Training and the whole - it's down to me - I'm the only one - which the doc tells her in NA is keeping her in that universe. And Joyce echoes this need.

4. The fact that her house is a complete wreck

5. Did you notice that the uber-vamp or tukvok or whatever it's called looks just like the waxy demon in Normal Again.?
Even the clothing seems the same? And Buffy is as beaten by it as by the waxy demon??

6. The three friends - Giles, Willow and Xander are the ones who pull her out of the rubble - they are the ones who tie her here?

7. Joyce keeps showing up when she dozes off telling her to wake up?

8. Even the X/A lines...

I don't know...it just made me wonder if it was supposed to look surreal, off slightly, slipshod...

The only thing that seemed not surreal or off was the DRU/SPIKE scenes when we were clearly in Spike's not Buffy's pov.

Maybe...I need to take a break from Buffy for awhile. Too much of analyzing of horror tv shows can't be good for the brain. ;-) sk (off to hang with folks and sleep...)

[> [> Possible answer - FE knows about what happended in NA... -- Ixchel, 09:43:18 12/19/02 Thu

And is using/will use this knowledge against Buffy?

Is acting on whatever tiny seed of doubt is left from NA?

Is concentrating most of its intellect and resources in a psychological attack on Buffy (complete with _very_ convincing Joyce), with the ubervamp as a distraction (you can't look very closely at what the left hand is doing while the right is punching you in the face), disabling Willow (perhaps one of the smartest of the group) with a psychological attack also so that she can't assist physically (with magic) or mentally (by assisting Buffy with whatever doubts she has) and keeping Spike out of the way to make both attacks more effective?

Just a muddled idea...

Ixchel

How to torture a vamp (Spoilers for BOTN) -- Scarf, 11:54:13 12/18/02 Wed

Can anyone tell me the point of applying the "water cure" to a being that does not breathe?! Unless I have missed something important, shoving Spike's head into the fountain should have no effect whatever on him. Instead JM comes up each time wheezing like a man at the last extremity. Poor editing? Forgetting the ground rules? Or does a soul somehow bring breath back with it?

[> Re: How to torture a vamp (Spoilers for BOTN) -- pellenaka, 13:19:52 12/18/02 Wed

I've wondered this myself. Someone mentioned that, even though you don't breathe, it isn't particulaly nice to get your lungs filled with water.

[> [> Re: How to torture a vamp (Spoilers for BOTN) -- Shiraz, 14:11:02 12/18/02 Wed

So don't breathe in any water.

[> [> [> The breathing thing -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:36:52 12/18/02 Wed

If you pay close attention, there's a moment when Spike stops gasping up water like there's no tomorrow. Many people have taken this to be a writing flaw where Spike passes out, but I saw it as him realizing "Oh, wait, I don't need to breathe. Stupid Spike." First Evil/Drusilla even drew attention to this point by saying that their kind (vampires) make good dolls because they're hard to kill.

[> [> [> [> But, But..(spoilers Buffy 7.10) -- Shiraz, 00:20:30 12/19/02 Thu

He does it again!

FE Dru says her not-quite-as-crazy-as-it-should-have-been schpiel, and then has UbVamp dunk him again!

AND SPIKE STARTS GASPING AGAIN!!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: But, But..(spoilers Buffy 7.10) -- Tyreseus, 14:49:28 12/19/02 Thu

Just because they don't need oxygen to function doesn't mean the vampires stop breathing. As one of those 99.9% of the time subconscious actions we do, I could see why vampires still gasp, wheeze, cough and react to drowning as a human would.

Also, the technique of breathing is probably a skill the vamps want to maintain - they still need lung power and air movement to talk. So, as long as they intend to have voice, they probably need the breathing reflex.

And it's never been suggested that the Vamps don't feel pain - quite the contrary. It might not kill them, but unless it's foreplay, they ususally avoid physcal pain as much as humans do. Have you tried breathing water before? It does hurt. So does holding your breath for a really long time.

[> ME's stance on the evils of organized religion. -- Rochefort, 17:45:26 12/18/02 Wed

The double dunkings of Andrew and Spike are clearly indicative of the fact that ME thinks baptism is sadistic. And yes, it had to be the editor's fault that JM was told to wheeze.

[> Vampire Physiology 000 (Spoilers for BOTN) -- Deb, 21:12:49 12/18/02 Wed

The gulping was instinct, but I think there is a neurological response when the lungs are full to clear them out. Like having double pneumonia without the mucous. Yet, there is no pulse, so respiration would not increase, so the vamps would need to breath to displace the liquid. I don't know for sure. I certainly never studied Vampire physiology. It probably smarts, but I don't see it as being a prime method of torture. It's more along the lines of irritation I'd think.

[> [> Symbolic parallels vs. Factual precision. spoilers for Bring on the Night -- Rufus, 22:52:17 12/18/02 Wed

Deb I just hijacked you to make a point....and that is we are so hung up on vampire physiology that we at times miss the symbolic parallels. Spike and Buffy have both been 'drowned' in an attempt to control them even if that means killing them to get rid of an opponent. In Bring on the Night I think the drowning of Spike parallels Buffy's drownings in Prophecy Girl in Season One, and Bad Girls in Season three....

Vincent: Well, then, let's just settle it.

He dunks her head into the water. She struggles to get back up, but can't get a good grip on anything in the filthy water. In the meantime,another vampire gets Faith in a full Nelson hold. She sees Buffy struggling in the water.

Faith: Buffy! (struggles with her assailant) You son of a bitch!

Vincent keeps holding Buffy's head under water. She struggles valiantly to get up, but just can't. It isn't much longer before she starts to get weak from lack of oxygen and stops struggling, apparently passing out. Vincent holds her under for another few seconds, then lets go and turns his attention to Faith. Buffy remains motionless in the water. Vincent grins widely at Faith, who keeps struggling, but to no avail.

Suddenly Buffy leaps up, Vincent's long sword in hand, and swings it around at his head. He's too quick, though, and ducks it, but is left off balance in a crouch.

Buffy: I hate it when they drown me.

The First can't kill Spike by drowning, but that's not the point, I feel that there is a direct parallel between Buffy's drownings and Spikes drownings (repetition is what bad guys are know for). Neither could be conquered by force...Buffy because of who she is....Spike because Buffy believes in him.

[> [> [> Baptisms (Spoilers for BoTN) -- Rahael, 02:51:19 12/19/02 Thu

and just a small point to add - in Bad Girls, Buffy's baptism symbolised the changes within her - she became more like Faith.

I presume Spike's baptism performed a similar function - reborn, changed, an underlining that he is different now.

[> [> [> [> I agree. How do you see the water splashed on... -- Rochefort, 09:58:54 12/19/02 Thu

Andrew?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree. How do you see the water splashed on... -- Deb, 15:05:35 12/19/02 Thu

Hummm. Since the water did no "awaken" him, perhaps his choice is to remain "in darkness"? Hot water burns like fire. Simplistic, but I'm not of the mind to be too deep lately.

[> [> [> [> [> I won't 'see' BoTN for ages.....a lot of the little details pass me by -- Rahael, 05:48:11 12/20/02 Fri

Until I see the actual scenes, I can't express sure opinions. It's always 'perhaps', 'maybe' and 'probable'

[> [> [> [> [> [> How about a lot more detail? -- Caroline, 13:15:50 12/20/02 Fri

Although Spike is dunked in the baptismal font, Andrew has a glass of water flicked at his face to wake him up from his torpor. The parallel of the water is there but the symbolism is completely different. Spike is dunked repeatedly underwater in the same manner that babies are baptized in eastern orthodox churches and in traditional western baptismal ceremonies (but perhaps a tad more harshly). This definitely is a nod to symbols of rebirth. It's confirmed with Spike's refusal to pick the First's side and basically to affirm that he will not be the First's butt-monkey. Andrew has water thrown at his face from a glass and wakes up. Not a rebirth symbol - it's a traditional symbol of disgust with someone - a different version of slapping someone in the face with a gauntlet or spitting at them in the face, the type of action one would expect from someone who is insulted. Andrew does wake up physically but we know that he has not woken up morally.

Is that enough detail? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts when you do see it (and hope my interpretation doesn't colour yours).

[> [> [> Symbolism vs. factual precision: a Star Trek View (7.10 spoilers) -- cjl, 02:53:03 12/19/02 Thu

I know this shouldn't bother me as much as it does (I have bigger things to worry about)--but it does. Every time I read a post about the symbolic importance of Spike's baptism, I think to myself: "couldn't they have presented it in a way that doesn't violate one of the basic physical laws of the Buffyverse"--i.e., VAMPIRES DON'T BREATHE?

Couldn't they have (as some fans on BC&S proposed) put a few drops of holy water in the mix so Spikey would burn a little every time he got dunked? Would that have been so hard?

Let me put it another way. Suppose, in an episode of Star Trek (the original series), the writer opens up with Kirk laughing heartily, sharing a comradely moment with Spock and McCoy. The action starts, and the three are separated and captured by the Romulans. The Romulans torture Spock, and demand that he renounce his loyalty to Kirk and Starfleet and join them. Spock lets out a hearty laugh of defiance. Kirk escapes, rescues his buddies, and they all re-unite on the Enterprise to resume their relaxing, comradely moment.

The script editor taps the writer on the shoulder: "Uh, loser--VULCANS DON'T LAUGH. They don't express emotion. Especially under those circumstances." The writer sniffs: "You don't understand. The laugh was a symbolic link between Spock and Kirk in this moment of crisis." "Riiiight," says the script editor, unimpressed with the use of symbolism. "Change it."

I understand the symbolism. But it's also a good thing when the executive producer understands the rules of her own series. It shows the fans that the writers have respect for the wonderful universe they've created.

Of course, if it's eventually revealed that Spike is now a new!Vampire and DOES have to breathe, I'll have to eat this post, byte by byte...

[> [> [> [> It's simple......................... -- Rufus, 03:08:43 12/19/02 Thu

Vampires may not breathe but actors do. You are going to get certain reactions when you put actors in certain situations.....they are just going to have to get actors who don't breathe, ever.

[> [> [> [> [> Either that, or find new, less aquatic ways of torturing Spike... -- cjl, 03:12:33 12/19/02 Thu

New ways to torture Spike?

Wait. I don't want to give Marti encouragement...

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Either that, or find new, less aquatic ways of torturing Spike... -- Doriander, 03:37:05 12/19/02 Thu

A compromise if they're really hard set on the baptism symbolism:

Tie him up, hang him upside down, submerge his head in water, then tickle his feet relentlessly.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Just as long as he is naked to the waist...snerk....;) -- Rufus, 05:33:24 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, but don't you think all the mystery is gone? -- Deb -- who pouts better than SMG, 17:14:26 12/19/02 Thu

At least some of the mystery. I've forgotten what Spike looked like with a shirt on. I'm just one of those girls who likes to use her imagination and not have it all shown to me -- ALL THE TIME. (Pout) I think they should go find that blue shirt of his, or maybe a red shirt. That could be highly symbolic too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Naked to the waist, so only half the mystery is gone....:):):):):):) -- Rufus, 02:37:48 12/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> heh, you haven't seen the history of naked Spike, have you? -- fresne, 09:11:22 12/20/02 Fri

It's absolutely hi-larious. Basically, someone listed every intance of Spike minus clothes in the entire series in a sort of progression of open shirt, no shirt, oh, look, naked hip.

I'd give you the address, but I'd rather not give the security filters a reason to flag me down. I think I got there off of bonibaru's blog.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, as long as someone is keeping track ; ) -- Deb, 10:26:57 12/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> The other possible expalanation..... -- cjl, 03:26:48 12/19/02 Thu

Is that Evil really is stupid. It can take on the forms of the Dead, but the knowledge is spotty. FE/Dru calling Spike "Daddy," the dunking business--there are crucial gaps in its data bank, a weakness Buffy and the Scoobs can exploit.

But if that were actually the case with the dunking, Spike probably would have made a snarky comment about it--unless he was keeping his yap shut and treating the dunk-age as a break from the regular torture.

And as for actors who don't breathe...

JOSS: Marsters! What have I told you? Can the breathing!
JM: I'm (cough, cough) trying, I'm trying!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Expalanation.....isn't that what Buffy does periodically with the Scoobs? -- Darby, 08:05:32 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I neede too prufreed bettur. -- cjl, 09:26:15 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The other possible expalanation..... -- JM, 09:24:20 12/19/02 Thu

Well considering Spike is a smoker, he may not have to breathe but he probably practices inhaling and exhaling a lot. Probably instinctively breathes in as a stress reaction.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nnnnnnnnnnnnno one expects the Spanish Inquisition! -- cjl, 09:47:28 12/19/02 Thu

To be honest, when I first heard about the FE "torturing" Spike by drowning him, I thought it had to be a joke. It was Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch all over again:

FE/Michael Palin: ...amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to Evil. Cardinal Ubervamp?

Cardinal Ubervamp (who bears a striking resemblance to Terry Jones): Yes, m'lord?

FE/Michael Palin: Bring out...the Water Tank of Death!

(Dramatic music on that last line. Cardinal Ubervamp rolls out the water tank, and FE/Michael Palin dunks Spike's head in for a good minute or so. Spike pops up, spits a little water out, but seems absolutely none the worse for wear.

FE/Michael Palin: Confess! Confess! Confess your sin of heresy, and you might yet be saved.

Spike (casually): Sod off. By the way, thanks for the dip. Was starting to get a little gamy there, if you know what I mean.

FE/Michael Palin (a little thrown): So...you are made of sterner stuff than I thought. Cardinal Ubervamp?

Cardinal Ubervamp: Yes, m'lord?

FE/Michael Palin: Bring out...the Comfy Chair!

(Dramatic music on that last line. Cardinal Ubervamp slides out a huge, overstuffed chair, with footstool and everything. While Spike eases in, Cardinal Ubervamp brings out a side table with a cup of warm blood and Weetabix.)

Spike: Now that's what I call service. You got a telly around here, mate? Passions is on in about five minutes...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! Very Good! -- Deb, 14:48:57 12/19/02 Thu

"Bring on the Night": The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (The Jolly, Yet Not Fat), 16:22:42 12/18/02 Wed

Hmpf! Fine kettle of fish we've got here. Oh, not the episode, which left my Prissy Alter-Ego all tied in knots, which I kind of enjoyed--I mean the time of year. Such a drag. Perky lights strung up everywhere, everyone telling you to have a "Merry Christmas!" or "Happy Hanukkah!" or "Swell Solstice!" and other such insipid cliches. And the Christmas carols! They're everywhere. There's just no escape from some crooner singing about open fires and tiny tots or reindeer with drinking problems or demonically possessed snowmen--

Oh, fine. Fine. My Snotty Alter-Ego has informed me, and I quote, "If you don't stop sniveling soon, d'Horrible will post the Super-Evil review for the week, and you'll have to stage another coup." Undergods know I wouldn't inflict such a fate even on you bunch of pathetic low-lifes, so here it is:

Fashion Statements
The Good
Willow actually had good choices in this episode. That makes her two for two. The worldÌs getting scary. The print on the dark peasant shirt was nicely understated, and that blue velvet number looked like something IÌd wear. Quite lovely!

Yes! Someone finally put Dawn in a really good color. That pale blue-gray complemented her coloring beautifully.

Giles!

Wood!

XanderÌs long-sleeved brown number. Rrowr!

BuffyÌs gray shirt and scarf. The cut and color were perfect.

Drusilla, head to toe. The First Evil knows how to dress that vixen, doesnÌt it?

Spike, shirtless and tortured. Always a good look for that boy.

Joyce looked quite lovely for a dead woman, didnÌt she?

The Bad
Anya. I was gagging on the brown fringy monstrosity, but it almost looked tolerable compared to the ruffly pink confection hanging off of her at the end. Yech!

Molly. If this is a typical example of her wardrobe, I vote she follows Annabelle to a swift death. Speaking of which, the ultra-conservative clothing only served to emphasize the ramrod jammed down AnnabelleÌs spine. Who dressed her, the Watchers?

Is anyone else wondering just how bad Andrew smells by now?

Speaking of smelling bad, if that Tulakhan was real, it was wearing a suit of human skin. I disapprove. ThatÌs far too showy. I prefer something more subtle.

The Iffy
Kennedy looked fairly okay compared to her sister Slayers-in-Training, but thatÌs not saying much. Time will tell if the potential LesbÛI mean, potential Slayer has any fashion sense at all. Her hair definitely needs help, if nothing else.

Plot in a Nutshell
Well, there was plenty of plot to go around, wasnÌt there? Buffy and the Scoobies haplessly research the First, Giles (or something that looks like him) shows up with a passel of brats, Spike finds a spot oÌ torture, Andrew gets gagged, a Neanderthal vampire terrorizes Sunnydale and pulps the Slayer, and Joyce plays around in BuffyÌs subconscious. All this leads up to a Highly Dramatic Speech.

Demonic Quibbles and Comments
The Tulakhan was pretty authentic-looking. My compliments to the makeup people.

Highlights
Spike getting tortured. I just never get enough of that, you know?

Dawn slapping around and attempting to torture Andrew with Anya. And to think I thought the Brat would never grow on me.

Willow going all black-eyed again and getting freaked by the First. ThatÌs what you get for trying to go straight, honey. Metaphorically straight, that is. Right.

Andrew getting smacked around and gagged. That was just funny.

Buffy getting pulped by the Tulakhan.

Giles showing up. Yaay!

Buffy and Wood doing the Dance of Mutual Suspicion. WasnÌt it cute?

Junior Miss Slayer getting done in. She deserved it, if for no other reason than her prissy uber-Brit attitude.

Xander finding common ground with Andrew. Be afraid, Carpenter Boy, be very afraid!

Lowlights
Giles being uncharacteristically wussy. If itÌs because heÌs an agent of the First and is there to sow dissension and despair, IÌm okay with it. If not, theyÌd better have a damn good reason for not giving us some Ripper action.

AnyaÌs clothes. Bleah!

Every time Annabelle opened her mouth. Someone would have had to de-English her, give her wardrobe an infusion of leather, take away her Slayer handbook, get her drunk, and get her laid before sheÌd have been bearable.

Kennedy hitting on Willow. What's up with that? And Willow, two words: Jail. Bait.

SpikeÌs resistance to Evil. I mean, yes, it was kind of nice to see him regain his Attitude Problem, but the whole ÏShe believes in meÓ shtick was just gagworthy.

As was BuffyÌs Henry V speech. I feel like a load of cheese has been dumped on me.

Burning Questions
Is Giles real, or is he a First Evil Pseudo-Giles? If not, why didnÌt we see Ripper?

Are we going to be seeing an invasion of multi-national Twerps in the coming weeks, per GilesÌ observation that theyÌd all be headed to Sunnydale? Will they have stuffy, tweedy Watchers along with them? The thought appalls.

Is Joyce real, or is she a First Evil Pseudo-Joyce?

Why canÌt we kill Andrew?

Why didnÌt BuffyÌs ÏfriendsÓ take her to the hospital, if she was that badly injured?

What *is* it with all the louvered light?

Is Wood evil? Is he a flunky? Is he enthralled? Or is he just secretly anal underneath his delicious suits?

The Immoral of the Story
Never trust your senses. TheyÌll only mislead you.

Overall Rating
20 with a side of blue. Were I not in such a rotten mood, itÌd probably be higher.

[> Re: "Bring on the Night": The Super-Evil Review -- Sophomorica chewing on a christmas-tree ornament, 17:23:19 12/18/02 Wed

"If you don't stop sniveling soon, d'Horrible will post the Super-Evil review for the week, and you'll have to stage another coup."

d'Horrible! Now there is a poster I would like to see post more often. Liven this place up a bit. Though Sophie has promised if that Sol character doesn't restore her MtP thing soon, I'll get to chew on some ass.

Is anyone else wondering just how bad Andrew smells by now?

I'm waiting for him to need to pee. :) I am so enjoying his getting tied up and slapped around. But Anya and Dawn becoming chummy? Gag!

Why canÌt we kill Andrew?

Boring. What fun would that be?

give her wardrobe an infusion of leather, take away her Slayer handbook, get her drunk, and get her laid before sheÌd have been bearable.

Ooh! Now that would be exciting!

Is Wood evil? Is he a flunky?

If he's a flunky, I get first dibs on him!

Giles

Giles was yummy and delicious and....sigh...I still want him to get it on with Willow. I guess I will be forced to start writing fanfic.

[> [> Gyee-aah!!!!! -- Honorificus (Perfection In (And Out Of) The Flesh), 18:50:43 12/18/02 Wed

Giles was yummy and delicious and....sigh...I still want him to get it on with Willow. I guess I will be forced to start writing fanfic.

Where did you get such an awful idea, dear? Have you been eating tinsel or something? You'd inflict the Simpering Lesbian Witchy-Poo upon our lovely Giles? Gag! I'd sooner see him with the Twerp! The only idea that's more appalling is Giles with X-X--oh, I can't even say it. Yecch!

[> *Pout* Hasn't anybody read my pretty review? -- Honorificus (The Blindingly Brilliant), 00:16:22 12/19/02 Thu

Honestly, I go to all this trouble to enlighten you petty, insignificant mortals, and then you ignore me? There's gratitude for you! I may just take my brilliance (and my fabulous wardrobe) and find another board. Hah!

[> [> Re: *Pout* Hasn't anybody read my pretty review? -- OnM-fan, 02:39:47 12/19/02 Thu

No, great one, we, your humble servants, have read your magnificient review, we are just to awestruck to answer.

All bow before the great Honorificus!

That aside, can I just add a few things fashion-wise:
1. Anya. I didn·t find her clothes too bad, and I do SO love women with glasses. Hope she sticks with ·em!

2. Buffy looked hot when she was beaten up. Not that I enjoy seeing beaten up women or anything, but she has that whole Antonio-Banderas-in-13th-Warrior-thing going on. The more you beat her up, the sexier she gets.

3. Oh, and did you see Wood in his dirty suit? Rrrrr! I love it when the "clean" ones get all dirty.

4. Also, the Uber-Vamps clothes were fitting. Simple, yet with a certain "I·m-a-savage-monster-come-to-smash-you-dead" charme working...

[> [> [> I loved the glasses too! -- RobAndMurder, 09:34:03 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> you mean she was... -- anom, 22:04:01 12/19/02 Thu

"2. Buffy looked hot when she was beaten up. Not that I enjoy seeing beaten up women or anything, but she has that whole Antonio-Banderas-in-13th-Warrior-thing going on. The more you beat her up, the sexier she gets."

...covered in sexy wounds? @>)

[> [> Honorificus, your reviews make my week! (esp the fashion!) -- Rahael, 02:45:50 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> Please don't eviscerate me! -- Tchaikovsky, 03:04:58 12/19/02 Thu

Always love your review- and the non-sequitur scale gives a much better rating of the episode than the lousy 1-10 thing.

TCH

[> [> I'll respond to you, my pretty-- you and your pretty review ! -- The Third Evil, 06:18:48 12/19/02 Thu

Lookit, sweetie, if you wanna play with the big bards, you gotta toughen up a bit.

Ignore you? Hah! Everybody LOVES your stuff! As has already been commented upon, they are just stunned into silence at the highly fashionable effulgence of your contributions to the stealthy wealth that is the Buffyverse.

But, as the great sage David Bromberg rightfully prophesied, 'You gotta suffer if you wanna sing the blues.'

Try spending 8 or 9 hours on a Classic Movie of the Week, and then watch it disappear unresponded-upon into the Voy archives in about 1/2 hour.

Remember, The Scribe draws strength from the spillage of ink.

Or electrons, photons. Whatever. It's a redemption thing.

;-)

[> [> My, oh my. Has it come down to this? -- devilish, staring @ the antic of the Artificially Bright One, 08:53:55 12/19/02 Thu

You're begging for replies to your critique? Seems to me that gods of any mettle should not go about imploring minions and lower beings for their thoughts. Because what they think does not matter. Perhaps the Higher Beings should reconsider your status and change your membership.

Did you ever stop to think that they may have been struck dumb by the words that you strung together and could not begin to find words to describe the genius that is possibly you? Of course, I didn't have this reaction to your review. I read it and it was passable but it incited no witty repartee from me. However this did.

[> [> [> *Swoon!* -- Honorificus (The Maidenly-Blushing One), 14:46:23 12/19/02 Thu

Oh, Devilish, darling, you've *such* a wicked tongue! I find that very attractive. Perhaps we could hook up this weekend. If you prefer, I can morph into my male avatar, BenHonor'D, or I can stick with this luscious form. It matters not at all to me. Anytime, anywhere, you sharp-tongued Lower Being, you!

[> [> What? I don't count as somebody? Thpththth!!! Double thpthththt!!! -- Sophomorica, sucking on a candy-cane, 14:46:47 12/19/02 Thu

[> Sorry O pouty-lipped one, it's hard dragging myself out of the crupt this morning -- ponygoyle, 08:51:55 12/19/02 Thu

*Yawn* Office party last night. Not my office party, just one that I happened to swoop in on and eviscerate the workers. Sadly couldn't get to the dj in time to stop him from playing "Funky Town" so I'm in a bit of a state this morning.

Nevertheless I of course welcome the return of your most evil review. Still I can't help but feel a little disappointed in the FE. All those millenia in waiting have left the entity out of touch with modern torture techniques. Fists and dunkings? What is this a kiddie party? NLM had all those lovely knives and implements, but when the uberVamp finally gets around to having his way with Spike (faux or no Drusilla always has a lovely turn of phrase) I had to stifle a yawn. When uberV pulled Spike out of the water I expected him to apply a creme rinse.

Speaking of hair, did you notice Dawnie's curls in the basement of the school? Any girl who can take time out from the apocalypse to get out the curling iron has my respect!

[> [> Is a crupt a cross between a Krups coffeemaker & a crypt? -- devilish, just wondering where she could get one of those, 08:59:44 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> Ack! -- ponygoyle (who could probably use the coffee), 09:32:49 12/19/02 Thu

[> Glad to see a few weeks with no eps to review hasn't made our hellbitch lose any of her kick. -- RobAndMurder, 09:26:29 12/19/02 Thu

"Time will tell if the potential LesbÛI mean, potential Slayer..."

ROFLMAO!

[> The estrogen factory -- The Pushy Queen of Slut Town, 14:06:07 12/19/02 Thu

Honorificus, darling, did you notice the change in interior decor at the den of the slayer? I, for one, thought the broken glass and plywood covered walls made for interesting progress, although I'd never trade in my mossy underground cave with convient access to tasty mortals. Perhaps, with enough minion attacks and teenagers under the roof, the residence will ultimately reach its potential as a scarred and dark hollow which one of the lesser poltergeists would find livable. Let us hope that the Carpenter has similar "give up trying" attitudes in the future - it brings out his better talents.

But what I found most repulsive about the episode was the scenes where the cursed slayer and her sidekicks turned into a slumber party. Since the First saw fit to remove Spike from their presence, the scooby gang is starting to look like a weekend at Lilith Fair (the most evil invention to ever come from lesbians).

What a sad day when Xander earns the title of "the butch one," with Kennedy coming in a close second.

[> Re: "Bring on the Night": The Super-Evil Review -- DeeDee, 14:34:05 12/19/02 Thu

I wait for your reviews every week! They are so funny and on the mark-have you ever thought of publishing them as a book?

[> If allowed, seriously wondering something... -- Darby, 20:14:40 12/19/02 Thu

Will Buffy continue to wear high collars or neck wraps around the Slayerettes? She's probably embarrassed by her bite marks in that crowd...

[> [> Re: If allowed, seriously wondering something... -- Sophie, 20:43:04 12/19/02 Thu

Don't warriers wear their battle scars with pride?

Sophie

[> [> [> Not vampire hickeys! -- Darby, 06:30:52 12/20/02 Fri

JM impressed me in Buffy 7.10 as opposed to DB in Angel 4.7... -- Rob, 17:37:24 12/18/02 Wed

After he was taken out of the vat of water, he kept his panting and catching breath to a minimum, unlike DB, who was practically hyperventilating after being attacked by the Beast. Not that I didn't love that ep, or DB in it, but the less-breathing is easier to swallow, what with the whole vamps-don't-breathe thing.

Rob

[> The Effect of Pain on Breathing -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:29:27 12/18/02 Wed

Haven't you ever stubbed your toe or banged your knee? Well, when that happens to me, my immediate reaction is to take lots of shallow, huffing breaths. It helps ease the pain. Angel had just been stabbed through the chest/throat (can't recall which), and that has to smart, hence rapid breathing like when someone stubs their toe.

As for Spike, the post dip wheezing was probably due to getting all the water out of his lungs. Now, why did he breathe in the water in the first place, some might ask? Well, there's a moment when Spike's head is underwater and he suddenly stops gasping. I think this was the moment he realized that he didn't really need to breathe, and so stopped gasping up water.

[> [> yeah, but... -- anom, 22:28:03 12/18/02 Wed

...the instinct when your head goes under the water is to hold your breath, not to breathe in. Seems to me Spike would realize by the time a human would run out of breath that there was no reason for him to breathe in.

[> [> [> Shooting Script... -- bl, 04:36:42 12/19/02 Thu

Someone on TWoP who claimed to have seen the shooting script said it was supposed to be Holy Water but UPN nixed that. I assume nixed it after it was filmed so they just had to cut out the Holy Water reference. That would explain some of Spike's reaction.

But wouldn't Holy Water make him..combust?

Can Holy Water be diluted? So it's just painful and not fatal?

[> [> [> [> That would make it make sense -- Isabel, 07:57:18 12/19/02 Thu

I thought that was a lame way to torture a vampire, drowning. Oh, yeah, with his need to breathe and all. Holy water would have made it torture and also not harmful to the Uber, who didn't seem to be affected by staking or the cross Cannon-fodder was wearing.

So UPN has a problem with holy water, oookay.

Sorry folks, my sarcasm font seems to be running over today.

[> [> [> [> Diluting Holy Water (continued spoilers) -- Darby, 08:33:10 12/19/02 Thu

Instant water (empty can instructions): Just add water...

So one adds more Unholy Water, or abbreviates the blessing (pig Latin, perhaps?), or perhaps a nice Schweppes -?

Don't mean the snark, it just set off my inner sarcasm font.

But seriously, if the Uber-Vamp held Spike under Holy Water and didn't itself burn, they might have been telling us things they didn't want us to know yet...

[> [> [> [> [> But... (7.10 spoilers) -- Rob, 09:23:16 12/19/02 Thu

...the Ubervamp might not be harmed by holy water, just as he wasn't harmed by the stake in the heart, and didn't seem too worried about Annabelle's cross. I wonder if anything short of beheading and sunlight could kill this vamp. It doesn't seem to respond to any "religious" devices.

Rob

[> [> [> Didn't Spike used to smoke? -- Sophie, 15:14:23 12/19/02 Thu

[> Just because they don't need oxygen doesn't mean they don't breathe -- Tyreseus, 16:46:54 12/19/02 Thu

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor of human or vampire medicine, biologist, or any other qualified expert on the subject, but...

It seems to me that the debate over water torture neglects to recognize that lung contraction/expansion is necessary to move air past the vocal cords. Therefore, vampires do need to breathe if they want to communicate in anything other than tongue clicks and guestures. Seriously, try making any noise without passing air over your vocal cords. They don't need the air for that whole oxygen/carbon dioxide exchange. That's why Angel could breathe safely in an elevator filled with poisonous gas or survive in his underwater casket for 3 months.

Since the Vamps need to breathe in order to speak, grunt, hiss or smoke, it would make sense that the reflex/instinct that keeps us breathing during the 99.9% of the time we aren't actively thinking about our respiratory system still functions for vamps. If so, do you know that painful feeling you get when you hold your breathe for a long time? Why wouldn't the vamps feel it to? Maybe Spike's body was screaming at him to take a breathe, an instinct to which he inevitably gave in, and he was rewarded with a lungful of water.

As others have pointed out, a lung filled with water is probably painful in its own right. With enough time and patience, Spike might be able to overcome his instictual responses to being submerged and find a way to breathe the water as comfortably as the air, but I'm guessing it never made his "to do" list before. Thus, the pain and effectiveness of the torture.

[> [> Ooh! Like this one, makes a lot of sense -- JM, 18:26:00 12/19/02 Thu

And works with the actors' reality; now fanwank the aging. Just kidding. This is a tough gig.

I think I read somewhere that Joss got a lot of guff for the no CPR in "Prophecy Girl" and said something about how "OK vampires breathe, but their breathe isn't life giving." And then someone said that vampires, since they don't need to convert the oxygen to CO2 would give better CPR. And then Joss basically said "A wizard did it." Course not in those words.

[> [> I like this too! -- ponygirl, 07:31:54 12/20/02 Fri

It also adds another layer of symbolism onto all the baptism talk -- Spike's voice is being taken away from him. He's uncharacteristically silent from the end of NLM until after the dunking scene, only later does he regain his voice and some of his snark.

Current board | More December 2002