December 2002 posts

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The triumphant return of Marti.... (7.10) -- Rochefort, 18:16:36 12/17/02 Tue

That's right. The queen of cliches, kinky sex, and poor execution of important plot points has returned with a vengance. They could only keep her under wraps for so long.

You can all tie me to a chair and slap me around if it gives you a thrill, sure, go ahead. But lots of you are thinking it. You heard the lines falling flat left and right. The obvious "misdirections." The CORNY lines like "She does. She believes in me." I mean did we need to hear that? We all KNOW that's what Spike is thinking. Where does the world famous Buffy credo of "We trust our fans" go when Marti is writing? And couldn't they have made Giles even a LITTLE more subtle in his "I'm evil?" Instead of Mr. Hi-I've-infiltrated-your-group-to-depress-you, did ya catch that? We're gonna cut out their hearts. woo woo.

Thank god for the Andrew stuff which was fabulous. Marti always does manage to throw in there a few great "blueberry scone" zingers. These ropes itch. heh heh. Or maybe Petrie wrote that.

[> You have to be kidding me! -- Rob, 19:33:50 12/17/02 Tue

This was a brilliantly-written episode, with nary a plot hole or misstep for the entire hour. This was without a doubt the best episode since CwDP. It had perfect pacing, a great sense of mystery, and was chock full of epicy goodness. After seeing this episode, I am a self-proclaimed Marti Noxon/Doug Petrie shipper! What beautiful work they've done together! Bravo, guys!

"She needs me." That line had me jumping for joy. Literally. I jumped up from my seat, full of joy, and there was much clapping and woo-hooing.

And as far as the comedy, I laughed harder than I have for the past two episodes. Although I greatly enjoyed "Sleeper" and "Never Leave Me," I thought the comedy was a tad bit off. But this episode was hilarious, dark, awesome. I loved it. Hard!

Rob

[> [> Re: You have to be kidding me! -- J, 05:34:44 12/18/02 Wed

This was a brilliantly-written episode, with nary a plot hole or misstep for the entire hour. This was without a doubt the best episode since CwDP.

I don't care who wrote it or directed it -- that episode was TERRIBLE. Are we really supposed to believe that Buffy sees Giles unexpectedly and doesn't give him a hug? Are we really supposed to believe there-is-no-hope Giles saying things like "Buffy was our plan" or having a calm discussion about Buffy's internal bleeding? And come on, Principal Wood: "I like mysteries"? And he's all glowy-eyed guy now? And Buffy is not the least bit suspicious of their basement encounter with shovels after they JUST COVERED THE DAMNED SEAL?

The writing was spotty, the episode was not well-plotted and HORRIBLY directed. What was that stupid shot with the sun rising behind Giles? The fight scene in the factory was phoned in. Buffy's wounds looked even faker than usual.

The Spike-BBDrusilla scenes were the only ones that were worthwhile, but even they lacked the tension we've come to expect. Finally, there's only one reason I can think of (I'm spoiler-free, natch) that the slayer in training would have run away, and it completely clears up something that ME was trying to leave murky. I have LOVED S7, but this ep was just a waste.

I felt like I was watching 'Charmed' for crying out loud.

[> [> [> En garde! ;o) (7.10 spoilers) -- Rob, 08:21:56 12/18/02 Wed

"I don't care who wrote it or directed it -- that episode was TERRIBLE. Are we really supposed to believe that Buffy sees Giles unexpectedly and doesn't give him a hug?"

If you watch the scene closely, she approaches him, and he BACKS AWAY from her.

"Are we really supposed to believe there-is-no-hope Giles saying things like "Buffy was our plan" or having a calm discussion about Buffy's internal bleeding?"

Two options: A) It's not Giles. or B) Giles has been so affected by what happened to himself and all the other Watchers (all forces of good being wiped out) that he has become hopeless.

"And come on, Principal Wood: "I like mysteries"? And he's all glowy-eyed guy now? And Buffy is not the least bit suspicious of their basement encounter with shovels after they JUST COVERED THE DAMNED SEAL?"

This may just be a matter of personal opinion, but I think Buffy seemed very suspicious, through the "shovel" and the "evil" scene. I will admit that the "seeing true evil" thing might be a tad bit over the top, but we don't yet know what's going on with Wood, and I think that speech might be more understandable when we later find out what his deal is.

"The writing was spotty, the episode was not well-plotted and HORRIBLY directed."

Again, a matter of personal opinion.

"What was that stupid shot with the sun rising behind Giles?"

I thought that shot was awesome. Not only did I think it looked cool, but it also raises some more suspicion about Giles. He seems...wrong.

"The fight scene in the factory was phoned in. Buffy's wounds looked even faker than usual."

That I can't agree with at all. I thought it was one of the coolest fights in recent memory. And the wounds were perhaps the most gory and graphic Buffy's ever gotten. I thought the whole thing looked very gritty and visceral.

"The Spike-BBDrusilla scenes were the only ones that were worthwhile, but even they lacked the tension we've come to expect. Finally, there's only one reason I can think of (I'm spoiler-free, natch) that the slayer in training would have run away, and it completely clears up something that ME was trying to leave murky.

I agree that the Spike/Dru scenes were good, but disagree on the "lack the tension" thing. I think the point was that Spike is getting stronger against the FE. Its will can't bend and shape him any longer. He's not under its control anymore. Thus, less tension. Re: Slayer in Training. I'm not sure what you're implying about why she ran away. I'm actually curious for you to tell me, but I won't let myself ask you...because I'm getting to that point in the year where I don't want to even hear spoiler spec, out of fear that the person might be right.

"I have LOVED S7, but this ep was just a waste.

I felt like I was watching 'Charmed' for crying out loud."

Now you can dislike this episode, but that was downright mean! ;o)

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: En garde! ;o) (7.10 spoilers) -- J, 11:22:31 12/18/02 Wed

He seems...wrong.

I don't think that there's any doubt that something is up with Giles. I just count on ME to have a little more finesse regarding what that 'something' is supposed to be. The only thing that gives me any pause about concluding once and for all that it's (A), that Giles is dead and that the 'Giles' in that ep is a manifestation of the FE, have nothing to do with the show itself: the rumblings about a 'Ripper' BBC show. Of course, that show could be set prior to Buffy's arrival in Sunnydale . . .

I won't spill the beans about what I think spooked the SiT. I will say that I hope I'm wrong and that ME is going to shock me about everything I suspect--but if I'm right, I'm going to really disappointed. I always count on them to be smarter than me! :-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: En garde! ;o) (7.10 spoilers) -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:47:17 12/18/02 Wed

But consider this, it makes no sense that Giles would spend all this time with the Slayers-To-Be and the Scoobies and the issue that he never touches anyone or anything doesn't come up. For that reason, I think Giles isn't the First Evil, but ME has left it so that people will conjecture that he is. I do agree something is up with him. Perhaps he's another manifest spirit.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: En garde! ;o) (7.10 spoilers) -- J, 08:33:33 12/19/02 Thu

Actually, I suspect that it makes perfect sense, but I'm deliberately keeping my lips sealed on this point. As I said, I keep hoping I'm wrong!

[> Rochefort, put aside your prejudices for a second, okay? -- HonorH, 23:29:27 12/17/02 Tue

The "She believes in me" line was completely needed. It validated to the audience what she said to him, that it was what he needed to hear. I just about jumped for joy when he said that. It would've driven me crazy if he hadn't said it now or at some future point, after he's finally rescued. We need to hear what it meant to him that Buffy told him that, no matter how obvious certain Marti-bashers may think it is.

Also, the jury's still out on Giles. We don't know if he's evil or not. I'm leaning toward the "not" for now, precisely because there are so many reasons to believe he is.

Now stop it. You're being a twit.

[> [> I'm a twit too. -- Deb, 07:03:32 12/18/02 Wed

This was the poorest episode this season (Great Season though). I feel like I've been thrown Peppermint Candy Canes and have been told to like them. It was stiff, choppy, lacking any verbal snap, contrived interactions, and what's going on with Dawn? Will Spike ever wear a shirt again? (I'm a Spike fan too.) And what was the dunking Spike routine about? Even if you don't breath, when your lungs fill with water you pass out? Ohh! Whee! And why exactly does the First keep Spike alive? To lure Buffy? Well that kinda goes against her "we'll strike first and fast instead of waiting for the end to come to us" speech. To take on the challenge of making him choose to be evil? Child's play. Andrew was funny. Good fight scenes. Good acting by SMG. Good to see Giles even if he is strange. Willow's big scene was the best. Overall, 6.2 out of 10.

[> [> [> No, you're not a twit. -- HonorH, 16:29:50 12/18/02 Wed

Not liking this ep doesn't make you a twit. You've a perfect right to like or not like any ep. Knee-jerk Marti-bashing, however, does put one on my Twit List, and I've had it up to here with Rochefort's.

BTW, upon a second viewing, I really liked the directing. There are some beautiful (and subtle) touches I just didn't appreciate the first time around. This is one that's definitely better the second time 'round.

HonorH, off to join Rob on the BtVS Cheerleading Team

[> [> [> [> I won't respond to the personal attack but... -- Rochefort, 17:32:00 12/18/02 Wed

You've wanted me since you started posting here, HonorH. But too bad. I like "J" and Deb better and I don't even know if they're male or female... but just in a friendly sort of "I admire your aesthetic sense" sort of way.

All I'm saying about Marti is that she's taken a lot of crap over how bad season six was and everyone saying it was all because of her. She needed to come out and hit a homerun to silence the nay-sayers. Instead she sort did the Buffy version of the ice capades. Without the healthy dose of irony.

[> [> [> [> [> lol. You're mean to Marti, Rochefort, but I like you! -- Rahael, 02:38:54 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Puckish Rochefort! Yer a peach! -- J, 08:38:59 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> thanks guys. :) That's very sweet of you. -- Rochefort, 10:02:40 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> You're right--the "twit" thing was overboard. -- HonorH (down, Honorificus!), 14:54:56 12/19/02 Thu

I apologize for that. I still think you're far too hard on Marti, and that the ep was good, so I stand by those opinions. However, I shouldn't have gotten to name-calling. I'm sorry.

And yeah, I do want ya. Well, Honorificus wants you. Be afraid, be very afraid.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I didn't know if you knew that Honorificus wanted me. -- Rochefort, 16:10:38 12/19/02 Thu

It must be like that "vamp-willow" little bit gay thing.

I was going to ask if there's any hope that you can leash her? I mean she's got great fashion sense, but the way she looks at me on Friday, I spent the weekend hiding in my closet.

And thanks for the apology.

I recanted some of my opinion about the episode in my terrorism post above. But I stand by my other opinions, too. And I still think the Spike line "she believes in me" was realllly bad.

[> [> [> [> I was rather enjoying "trying on" the twit thing. -- Deb, 15:16:22 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Well, if you *wanna* be a twit . . . -- HonorH, 16:08:20 12/19/02 Thu

I can always call you one. Shall you be the Twit Queen?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Twit Queen for the Day. Now, how do I feel? -- Deb -- trying on new identity to acknowledge her dark side., 17:30:39 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> And me! -- dream of the consortium, 10:26:13 12/19/02 Thu

I agree with almost all your points, although I found the dark Dawn thing interesting. We've seen a lot of indications that Dawn has some darkness in her this season, and I'm hoping that leads somewhere (pushing the guy down the stairs, "When did you sister get so incredibly scary?" and so on).

I tend to like Buffy best when it's heavy on the talk. I am probably the only fan that would be perfectly happy if we never saw another fight scene. So I'm tempermentally inclined to dislike this episode - heavy on the torture, heavy on the fight sequences, low on the character development.

I also felt like I had been here before, and I am sure it was deliberate, but I can't figure out why. Clear connections have been made to season five - the UberVamp standing up after being crushed by the pipes, just as Glory stood up after the building crashed in on her and the general sense that this was an unstoppable enemy. That's fine, and may served a thematic function in the end - after all, we did get the St. Crispin's Day speech this time that Buffy couldn't give in The Gift. I expect that we will eventually be contrasting Buffy's sacrifice in season five with a different approach and a different lesson this time through (balance?), but the contrasts weren't significant enough to make this episode at this time seem like much more than a retread.

Oh, and I get annoyed by too much vague stuff. I want my mind screwed with without my knowing it, or at least in clear terms. There have been too many "I like mysteries" sorts of comments, or lines that can obviously go two ways. I get it - something's up with Wood. Something's up with Giles. At a certain point, I stop being intrigued and start getting annoyed.

I did like all the things you mentioned - the presence of Giles, Willow's spell, Andrew. Like the continuation of the Spike/Andrew links (how Andrew can't even being to break the ties to the chair that Spike ripped through, the comment about how Andrew was never good, as compared to Spike, who was once William). The new Slayers are fine. Always nice to see Dru - and like that the FE is always just a little off from the real thing. I so hope we see the Mayor again.

Oh, and love the Joyce thing. What was it the Shaw said about Joan of Arc - it doesn't matter if what she heard was real, just if it was true? I find it interesting that the appearances of Joyce to Buffy have been in dreams. The First Evil didn't appear to Willow or Andrew in dreams - they were clearly wide awake.

So, yes, there were some interesting things in this episode, but overall I was pretty bored and felt no desire to rewatch it.

[> [> [> [> Re: And me! -- J, 10:47:40 12/19/02 Thu

I want my mind screwed with without my knowing it, or at least in clear terms. There have been too many "I like mysteries" sorts of comments, or lines that can obviously go two ways. I get it - something's up with Wood. Something's up with Giles. At a certain point, I stop being intrigued and start getting annoyed.

YOIKS. That's PRECISELY it! Nail -> Head, DotC.

Just Watched Buffy 7.10: Questions (Drusilla & Giles) [spoilers] -- David Frisby, 18:55:54 12/17/02 Tue

Giles said the First can only appear as those who are dead. Is Drusilla dead? Is Giles mistaken? Is Giles lying? Is Giles Giles? Or was that really Drusilla? And Giles didn't touch anything and wasn't touched by anything because of some kind of protecting spell? Or Giles "is" dead? And Giles was not Giles but was the First? And Buffy will have to fight (and possibly destroy) the First in the guise of Giles? And when Buffy finally does sleep the First will then launch a full attack during her dreams? And Joyce? And Willow and Kennedy will find each other? And Anya is losing her mind? And contributing to Dawn becoming sadistic? And Andrew is joining the scoobies? And where were Angel and the crew?

Well, one thing is for sure. We're going to get a war for this apocalypse!!!! The First Evil is ubiquitous but Buffy the Vampire Slayer and her friends are of the good. Together, Buffy and Spike will prove equal to the task. He knows now that she believes in him. And as for Buffy herself, here's a quote I received recently that seems apt:

"There is in every true woman's heart a spark of heavenly fire, which lies dormant in the broad daylight of prosperity; but which kindles up, and beams and blazes in the dark hour of adversity (from Washington Irving)."

Buffy's dark hour of adversity has arrived, but Spike's spark (soul) will enable her fire to blaze like the rising sun. That blaze, plus the darkness at the source of her power, plus the darkness of Spike's past, plus the love of her friends, plus the power of the earth (through Willow and Giles), will emerge triumphant over the First Evil, thus ending the reign of magic and demons and vampires and slayers, forever, such that they never were.

And then the series will end, and the really important books on what it all meant will begin, and the philosophy behind it will be revealed.

David Frisby

[> Re: Just Watched Buffy 7.10: Questions (Drusilla & Giles) [spoilers] -- luna, 19:24:53 12/17/02 Tue

Drusilla has to be dead--she's a vampire.

[> [> Re: My bad. I knew that. Thanks for the correction though. ] -- frisby, 20:03:27 12/17/02 Tue

I knew that. My bad. There was something about the First Evil's "take" on Drusilla though that was so realistic or convincing that I forgot.

[> [> [> Re: My bad. I knew that. Thanks for the correction though. ] -- Sophie, 08:58:45 12/18/02 Wed

I thought that the First impersonating Dru made it quite clear that he/she/it was NOT really Dru. The First was mimicking Dru's behavior's and mannerisms to fool/f*** with Spike - a little light torture - except no touching. I almost got the impression that the First thought some of Dru's typical behaviors are, maybe uh... childish (?).

I thought Juliet Landau did an excellent job of playing Dru, but not quite to the extent that she played Dru in the past, which contributed to my above impression.

Maybe I'm just out of my gourd.

Sophie

[> [> [> [> We get a very clear scene -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:50:16 12/18/02 Wed

Where the First Evil as Spike morphs into Drusilla. In my mind that settles it all.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: We get a very clear scene (you are right!) -- frisby (standing corrected), 18:21:10 12/18/02 Wed

I stand corrected. You are right. That settles it. This First Evil is "so" evil -- the essence of deception an deceit and trickery and the lie (and what secrets must it not keep)!

[> [> [> [> Re: My bad. I knew that. Thanks for the correction though. ] -- frisby, 14:18:23 12/18/02 Wed

No, you're exactly right. It was Landau's acting that threw me off my game. She really was superb. And it makes me want to know the status of the "real" Drusilla too. I do hope Joss and Co. really do tie up all the loose ends of the series in this season.

[> Re: Just Watched Buffy 7.10: Questions (Drusilla & Giles) [spoilers] -- Tam-Lin, 19:30:34 12/17/02 Tue

The First has appeared as Buffy a couple of times, so Giles is mistaken . . . or not Giles.

[> [> Re: Technically... (Drusilla & Giles) [spoilers] -- Jay, 19:44:14 12/17/02 Tue

Drusilla is undead. Vampires are dead. Buffy has died twice, so there more than likely is a loophole there somewhere for her. And Giles, I don't know. I've seen everything that everyone else has seen, and I don't know. I've seen what he hasn't done, and I've heard what he has said. I know that he can still cast a shadow, does that mean anything?

[> [> [> Some answers (no future spoilers) -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:55:39 12/17/02 Tue

Giles's exact words were "it can only take the form of those who have passed on." Not about taking the form of those who are dead, just of those who have died. People die when they become vampires, so it can become Spike or Drusilla. And we all know that Buffy died. The fact that she came back to life doesn't really matter.

Also, remember those files Giles stole from the Watchers' Council? He PICKED THOSE UP AND HANDED THEM TO BUFFY! So he can't be the First Evil doing a Giles impression. Plus, I think that during his time with the Slayers in training he would have had to touch at least a few things at least a few times. Being discorpreal isn't an easy secret to keep.

[> [> [> [> False Answer -- frisby, 20:15:55 12/17/02 Tue

Giles did not hand them to Buffy. He told Annabel the potential slayer to do so. Giles never touched anything organic and was never touched by anything organic. If the First Evil is not appearing as Giles, then I hazard that Giles is under some kind of protective spell that prevents such touching. It seems that in the dreams the First Evil in the guise of whoever "can" touch and be touched. Or was that really Joyce's true ghost?

[> [> [> [> [> Who closed the door behind Giles? Buffy or Giles? -- Briar Rose (vcr deprived still), 16:46:35 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Who closed the door behind Giles? Buffy or Giles? (Buffy!) -- frisby, 18:26:44 12/18/02 Wed

Giles never touched nor was touched nor caused anything inanimate to move. He "appeared" to lean on things once or twice but that's it. Of course we have to wonder how Annabel (the slayer in training who was killed by the ubervamp) received the things about the First Evil that Giles stole from the Watcher's Council. But then maybe he stole them before being killed and then Giles (or the First Evil in the guise of Giles) told Annabel to pick them up?

How long before the mystery is revealed?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Another possibility -- luna, 20:32:46 12/18/02 Wed

As others have mentioned, possibly Joyce and now Giles are not FE, but true spirits returning with real help. Still might be under non-touch, etc., constraints.

Perhaps it's spirits who will augment the Scoobies in the Apocalypse--but maybe that would be too much like the Helm's Deep scene in Lord of the Rings.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another [INTERESTING] possibility -- frisby, 03:25:14 12/19/02 Thu

That possibility would allow for some very interesting scenarios, kind of like her parents returning to help during her time of crisis. And maybe the spirits of the previous slayers too? I like that. Tapping into the power of the past (one's ancestors for example) is a personal topic of fascination on my part. Nietzsche calls it one's degreee of plastic power (the power to appropriate the past as a source for future action -- monumental history).

On another issue, I think of myself as knowing quite a bit about Tolkien's world but I don't recall Helm's Deep and Returning Spirits. Is that in the Fellowship or Towers or Return? It's not the dead that Aragon raises and brings to the war is it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> & another...or maybe just a variation on the above -- anom, 11:57:56 12/19/02 Thu

"...kind of like her parents returning to help during her time of crisis."

It occurred to me that Buffy's sleep-deprived subconscious may be putting her back in touch w/what I believe was the part of her mind that took on the appearance of her mother in the asylum scenes of Normal Again (I had a couple of posts about this after that ep aired). But it's hard to tell. Joyce's lines in Bring On the Night were supportive & discouraging at the same time (great ambiguous writing!). She's right that Buffy needs sleep, & it's true that evil has always been here & exists in us all. This could fit in w/Giles' hopeless-sounding lines, or it could be a perspective Buffy could use to--what? Fight the First? Accept its existence & counter its effects? Bind it? Find a way to balance it? Find a force for good that also has always been here & exists in us all, &/or that is beyond her & the Scoobies & the Slayers-to-be, just as the First is beyond its agents in the world?

BTW, Joyce's comments also remind me of her words to Buffy in Gingerbread about how her victory is never final (new annotation fodder, Rob!), & of Angel's trip in W&H's elevator before he had his epiphany.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: & another..& another -- frisby, 15:05:16 12/19/02 Thu

I'd like to see the next few episodes continue with Buffy not sleeping but entering the dreamworld on and off again like a shaman, and even perhaps near the finale, a nightmare, and then a lucid dream, all in the context of metaphysical reality. The final battle or at least a crucial part of it could also happen in a dream (lucid preferably but not necessarily), but with the implication that all dimensions will be affected by the outcome.

df

[> [> Re: But Buffy "did" die -- twice. -- David Frisby, 20:09:30 12/17/02 Tue

Just as Drusilla died, so did Buffy. And the first episode of season seven established that. But there's still so very very much that needs to be revealed yet before what is beneath "this" mystery is seen for what it is.

Isn't there almost always a "philosophy" hidden beneath each real mystery? Or a determinate predisposition to the finite set of fundamental alternatives such that some questions become secrets and others lies and "mystery" manifests?

David Frisby

Facing our fear, Evil, Finite Games, Choice, Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- shadowkat, 19:11:30 12/17/02 Tue

First off - you will not find any criticism or negative rants in this post - did enough of that this weekend.
Nor will I respond to any ranting posts. Again did enough of that this weekend.

First Impressions

1. What is the First Evil and how do we defeat it?

Well, I finally understand what Hacceity meant in her post -when she said it was about the difference between finit and infinite games. And evil - true evil sought to win the infinite game - put an end to it. There's always been evil of course, just as there is always good - but evil wants to oblivion, an end, a big bang, b/c sooner or latter all the torture and destruction gets boring and it wants to fill us all with the emptiness inside it.

What is evil, Buffy wonders. What is the first? If I knew what it looked like, if I could define it, find it in the internet - searching under well "evil" - maybe I could defeat it. Evil - Joyce tells Buffy is in us all, it can't be fought or defeated, it's part of you, me, everyone.
Giles says it takes place before the bang. It, the first, created everything they've fought. It is the source of it. It can take on the form of anything that has ever been dead and manipulates it's will through others - it also can bring things up. But it cannot do anything itself - it has no corporeal form.

Buffy says that usually they wait for it, but she refuses to. And instead of running from their fears - they are going to seek them out, face them and slay them. They are an army.

Spike says he does have a choice. That EVIL can no longer pull his strings, use him as it's puppet. Why? Because she believes in him. Reminds me of what Pinnochio says when he rescues Geppeto and chooses not to just be a puppet anymore.

So what is evil? What is the first? Evil is the voice that whispers in your ear late at night disquised as your mother, your friend, but mostly yourself - who tells you that you can't win, that life is meaningless, that you are worthless, that no matter what you do it won't get better. You are a monster. You are a waste.

Evil is the voice that tells you that if you just do this one nasty thing..everything will be okay. The voice that tells Spike that he'd be better off kicking things when their down. The voice that tells Andrew if he wears a jacket and kills his best friend he'll be a god. The voice that tells Annabelle there's no hope - run. The voice that tells Buffy that she can't fight, she can't win. There's no hope.

And every single day of our lives we hear this voice. It is the voice that tears us down tells us things are horrible. It is the voice that compells us to tear each other down.
And it wants to win the infinite game - the game that can never be won - because it is an eternal game of balance. Evil doesn't understand balance or moderation. But enuff ramblings about the First.

2. So who are the players and where do they fall.

a. Giles. I don't trust this guy. They go out of the way to make sure no one is seen touching him nor does he try in any way to help Buffy. Why didn't Giles try to pull Buffy out of that hole? And why did Giles let her jump into it unassisted? Also Giles says - the first can't be defeated.
He keeps throwing out negative platitudes. Hmmm - I finally understand the meaning of platitudes now. That's what Giles words felt like. OTOH - why is Giles able to bring the books? And the Slayers in Training? The first doesn't appear to have the ability to touch things - so it can't be the first, right? Hmmm not sure about this one.

Theories anyone?

b. Principal Wood.

Creepy. He also is very nice on the surface. Lurks around Buffy. Tells her to come back to work. Tells her that he doesn't like horror movies - that once you see evil, real evil, you don't forget it, it changes you. Why go looking for it? He prefers mysteries because they get to the "heart" of the matter - they hunt for what lies underneath.

c. Xander/Andrew - can I just say - i was right and am doing the little snoopy dance!! Yep this episode echoed half my Xander post - way cool! Andrew and Xander even echo each other at different points. Say the same word at the same time. And Dawn and Anya are both eager to beat the crap out of Andrew - the two women closest to Xander right now and possibly slightly annoyed with him?

Andrew asks Xander how he likes following Buffy around and asks if she lets him stab things? Asks if its better than what he did with Warren. Xander is offended by this and tries to concentrate on the window that he seems to doomed to constantly fix.

Buffy mentions facing one's fears? Well Xander appears to be facing his. We have buttmonkey Xander (Andrew) and Suave Xander (Xander) in the same room.

d. Well right again on Willow and her fear of doing magic and letting it take her over. Yep Willow is going to resist doing her magic and there is going to come a time in which she definitely needs to use it. Willow's fear which she needs to face is two-fold: 1) Not being of use, just a damsel a la Jonathan and 2) If she uses her power, even thinks of accessing it she'll kill her friends.

e. Spike - I think he may be the key to all of this. Not sure how. But for some reason his getting of a soul and Willow's defeat last year may have been the straw that broke the First's tolerance level. At any rate - the first seems awfully interested in Spike. I hope they rescue him soon, I mean I'm all for torture and all that - but do we really need to torture the vamp all season long? Even Angel got reprieves. So for that matter did Giles and all the other characters ME seems to get off on physically abusing.
Seriously one wonders about the sadistic streak in these writers: War Stories (captain is tortured to death then revived for some more), Ats (Lorne is tortured by Lilah),
now Spike has been tortured in almost three episodes now.
At any rate - I have 0 idea where they are going with Spike, except that he is clearly no longer the villain.

f. Dawn. She sure seems to have a thing for slapping Andrew. What's up with that? And she's way too happy.
Hmmm.

g. Anya - getting along beautifully with Dawn. These two appear to have bonded. And Anya seems to like to torture everyone around her with her mouth. Not sure where they are going with her character either.

Finally Joyce. So is Joyce the first evil? No, don't think so. i think Joyce is actually helping Buffy. Wouldn't it be ironic if Giles was part of first evil and Joyce was really Joyce?

3. Metaphors? Lots of heart images.

-" face that fear and rip out its heart"

Reminds me of the film Apocalypse Now - where the Lt. goes deep into the Heart of Darkness under orders to face his worst fear - the man he fears he'll become, Col. Kurtz - and rip Kurtz out of the darkness - that is feeding on him, to destroy it or rather bring things back into balance.

I liked how they paralleled the Buffy scene at the end, where a beaten up Buffy gets up and faces her friends and tells them that they aren't going to give up, that it is time to hunt down and face their fears and rip out the heart of it - to Spike's statement to the first evil, also beaten and bloody, physically exhausted - "I'm out. Not your puppet anymore." "What makes you think you have a choice? That you can be good?" "She does. She believes in me."

Other interesting parallels: The three people who find Buffy and pull of the wreckage are Giles, Willow and Xander in the same formation as the three vengeance spirits in the basement in Lessons.

The evergreen lawn in Amends is now empty in Bring On the Night. Instead of a bunch of mumbling bringers - Buffy finds her worst nightmare - a vampire she can't kill.
And she is lead there by her Watcher - Giles. Reminds me a little of Helpless actually - as does her attempts to defeat the vampire later in the episode.

Interesting episode. Not one to be discounted lightly.

Well, agree? disagree?

SK ( a few rambling thoughts before I go to bed. Have to get up for an early plane flight tomorrow - that's right I'm going home for xmas - where it's warm and there won't be any snow...sort of like Sunnydale. In fact Irony of Ironies - my parents tennis club is actually called Sunnydale - so I guess in a way that is where i'm going.)

[> Re: Facing our fear, Evil, Finite Games, Choice, Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- Rob, 19:26:50 12/17/02 Tue

Re: Giles...

Yes, something seems off about him. I thought something was weird the moment Buffy reached out to him at the front door and he quickly backed up. He didn't touch anyone in this episode. And even more, he was reminding Buffy over and over that the entire weight of this falls on her shoulders. Reminded me a great deal of Cassie "kindly" telling Willow that she shouldn't use magic anymore.

Rob

[> Small detail on Giles (spoilers of course) -- luna, 19:33:12 12/17/02 Tue

Giles doesn't bring the books himself, note. He tells one of the slayers in training to get them out of her backpack. Possible evidence.

[> [> The question is...(spoilers) -- Rob, 19:39:13 12/17/02 Tue

...is this misdirection to make us think he's the First Evil, and therefore we should think that he isn't? Or verification that he is? I could see ME working either way...and I'm also pretty sure they're gonna milk this for a while before giving us any answers.

If this really is Giles, what would be the reason for his distance and how he's treating Buffy? I would assume that this thing is so powerful and evil that for the first time, Giles actually is utterly hopeless. We don't know what the heck happened after he was attacked, but perhaps it required some huge, draining magic on his part. He's seen the Council, and so many people be killed. He could truly be at the end of his rope.

Or, he's the First Evil after all.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: The question is...(spoilers) -- natalie, 19:54:42 12/17/02 Tue

one thing that doesn't add up is:
everyone can interact with Giles. every manifestation of the First prior to this was targeted specifically to one person, and we saw with spike that while he was being "haunted", the first was invisible to people around him. not saying that the First's power is incapable of manipulating people collectively, but it's incongruent is all.

xo natalie

[> [> [> [> I think you've got something there... -- Helen, 02:25:15 12/18/02 Wed

I think Giles as FE will turn out to be a red herring too. You're quite right that previously the FE only appeared to one person at a time, and in Amends, when Angel was with Buffy, and saw the FE as Daniel she couldn't see ie, and with Giles he saw the FE as Jenny, and Giles saw nothing.

It reminds me of that scene in Fear Itself in the haunted Frat House where Xander becomes invisible to everyone. When I watched that scne again I noticed that for a good two or three mimutes before Xander realised no one was listening to him, and before we really twigged the others were totally ignoring him, no one took any notice of him at all. It gives the whole thing more authenticity, than to suddenly snap into "by the way, he's invisible".

[> [> [> [> [> However -- Vickie, 10:37:53 12/18/02 Wed

When FEWarren was with Andrew and Jonathan, only Andrew saw it at first. Later, both of them saw it.

All we seem to know is that it can appear to one, or more than one (2), people.

[> [> [> Okay, what do we know?...(spoilers, speculation) -- Jay, 20:29:53 12/17/02 Tue

Giles doesn't touch anyone or handle anything other his sunglasses in the entire episode. He does however cast a shadow as Buffy crawls out of the hole (reminiscent of Grave). We don't know that he lies about anything. He seems to tell the truth about everything. When he speculates or tries to plan, he seems fatalistic. He counts on the worst or worse. In short, there's nothing definitive on either side with him, yet. I speculated previously that Cordy might be making a return appearance in Sunnydale. I now expect Giles to appear in LA.

[> [> [> A possible answer is...(Spoilers 7.10) -- OnM, 20:39:05 12/17/02 Tue

...GilesBot.

The First has used Warren as a manifestation. It is reasonable that the First has Warren's knowledge, and could have minions assemble it. It would explain the interactions, and also why the 'negativity'... part of the programming.

The purpose? A mole, of course.

The only real question then is whether or not Giles is dead. For the moment, I'm guessing not, but I don't know for sure. A few years back Joss stated in an interview that the four core characters of the series would always be around (Buffy, Xander, Willow & Giles) but that anyone else was 'fair game'. (This is paraphrasing, but otherwise accurate).

Not that Joss ever lies, of course.

BTW, Owww, poor Buffy!

[> [> [> wiggity wack speculation...(spoilers) -- darvangi, 20:43:07 12/17/02 Tue

OK, this is me going way out on a precarious limb, but here's my train of thought on the Giles issue:

If we take for granted that these aparitions of the First Evil or whatever (the 'or whatever being important here') only appear as people who have died, and that, since Buffy was once dead and is now alive and did appear as an aparition, it's possible that Giles had a dead-for-a-little-bit experience from his attack in England and is now alive. He could be recovering in England while the apparition is in Sunnydale. Furthermore, since the First Evil appears as aparitions of the dead for evil purposes, isn't it possible that there is a First Good who can do the same? And couldn't this First Good be appearing as Giles, and possibly Joyce, to Buffy?

I know that this theory tears the very fabric of verisimilitude in the show since it would make it impossible to know who is real and who is fake and whether they are evil or good, but I'm happy that the episode was thought-provoking enough to make me come up with a wacky theory anyway. It looks like we all have plenty to pontificate about until the next new ep.

[> [> [> [> The First Good -- HonorH, 23:39:58 12/17/02 Tue

I've wondered about this, too. If there might be a counterforce to the First Evil, something that holds the balance. It would make sense. It might be the Powers That Be, it might be something slightly less stupid. However, whenever there's evil of this magnitude afoot, there's always been good to counter it. That might be Buffy and her "army," and it might be something else that'll come to the rescue at the last minute, a la the snowfall in "Amends".

It would make sense for the First Good to wait, too, or to work deep undercover. It wouldn't do for it to start contending too strongly and openly right away--that kind of conflict between primeval forces could do more harm than anything the FE alone could come up with. Instead, it'll work quietly from the sidelines, and then perhaps give Buffy's "army" a last-minute advantage when it all comes down.

Or maybe everyone'll die. There's always that.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The First Good spoiler speculation -- Rufus, 04:16:13 12/18/02 Wed

Maybe the PTB's will get off their collective rumps and lend a hand....or as much as they are allowed to....;)

BUFFY: The Council?

GILES: The Council haven't a clue. About much of anything, really. (walking toward Buffy, leaning on the horse) No, there's an ... an extremely powerful coven in Devon.

Did you notice how dirty and rumpled Principal Wood was when he met up with Buffy....I wonder if he was surprised to find the seal all covered up.....or ended up doing a second round of digging? I'd like to think he is a good guy..he likes mysteries, and cleans up real good.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The First Good spoiler speculation -- cthulhu1592, 04:25:22 12/18/02 Wed

i believe the principal is the first good or an emissary there of.

[> Re: Facing our fear, Evil, Finite Games, Choice, Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- cthulhu1592, 19:40:50 12/17/02 Tue

1 we wont know how to kill it for a while
2 giles is the one he didnt bring the books he had the remaining slayers do it .Why? limmited info builds trust and can give them negative imput. besides it also alows him to trick the remaining slayers in waiting into a central location. besides he gives them wrong info in the episode. he said the first can only take the guise of the dead. buffy and dru(as far as we know ) are not dead and we know the first has been them. oh yes giles is a baddy. but is the real giles dead? it would take a real lame scene to undo his death. that ax was in full swing and a few inches from his head when they cut to another scene.
2b pricipal i think he is a good guy in a holding pattern. weve seen him in the basement but never doing anything evil
like many people on these pages im secretly hoping for some ruff and tumble between willow and the slayer to be. im a perv so sew me.

and lets not overlook the obviose plan of the first to keep buffy busy and tired until he is ready to make his move. dont be surprised if every time buffy starts to take somekind of rest someone runs off and gets attact keeping her weak.

how long untill faith shows up? and why hasnt the world noticed the rain of fire in L.A.? and most importantly could thuis all be leading to the greatest series ending ever . the destruction of everything . sorry dark me comming through got to go

[> [> Re: Facing our fear, Evil, Finite Games, Choice, Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- Dochawk, 13:16:16 12/18/02 Wed

Actually both Buffy (twice) and Dru have died. We have never seen the FE maintain a guise for very long though. And we have never seen it take the guise of someone who we don't know has died. So that doesn't refute the information given.

[> [> [> Also, it only appears to one person at a time. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:12:27 12/18/02 Wed

So far, the First Evil has only made itself visible to one person at a time. When it comes to Willow as Cassie, no one else is around. When they're in the basement of the high school, only Andrew can see Warren; Jonathan can't until Andrew's about to kill him, and then Andrew's back is to the First Evil, so it doesn't count. Then, when it appears to Spike, everyone thinks he's just talking to invisible people. The only exception I can think of is when the First Evil torments Spike while its Harbingers and the Tulah-Kahn vampire are around. But its possible the First has a psychic connection to the vampire it raised, and maybe its Harbingers are blinded for just that reason. Just a thought that maybe the First Evil is incapable of appearing to more than one person at a given moment.

[> [> Re: Facing our fear, Evil, Finite Games, Choice, Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- Dochawk, 13:16:17 12/18/02 Wed

Actually both Buffy (twice) and Dru have died. We have never seen the FE maintain a guise for very long though. And we have never seen it take the guise of someone who we don't know has died. So that doesn't refute the information given.

[> Sadism and the Writers -- Rufus, 20:01:26 12/17/02 Tue

Seriously one wonders about the sadistic streak in these writers: War Stories (captain is tortured to death then revived for some more), Ats (Lorne is tortured by Lilah), now Spike has been tortured in almost three episodes now. At any rate - I have 0 idea where they are going with Spike, except that he is clearly no longer the villain.

I was reading a book on writing by Stephen King. He mentions fan reactions in a section regarding the book Dead Zone......

If one is to measure success by reader response, the opening scene of The Dead Zone (my first number-one hardcover best-seller) was one of my most successful ever. Certainly it struck a raw nerve; I was deluged with letters, most of them protesting my outrageous cruelty to animals. I wrote bad to these folks, pointing out the usual thing: (a) Greg Stillson wasn't real; (b) the dog wasn't real; (c) I myself had never in my life put the boot to one of my pets, or anyone else's. I also pointed out what might have been a little less obvious - it was important to establish, right up front, that Gregory Ammas Stillson was an extremely dangerous man, and very good at camoflage.

I could only laugh as this reminded me of the posting boards. I don't think because the writers have portrayed characters in sadistic or unflattering situations, they are trying to get a point across. The point in both Buffy and Angel is that we aren't dealing with folk that play fair, or can be reasoned with. What both shows are dealing with is how characters interact in everyday and dangerous situations. Doesn't mean that they (the writers) dislike a character because to the writers the characters aren't real. For anyone to believe that this is the apocalypse that could just be the end, we have to believe that the First Evil is serious. What we have seen in the torture scenes is that the First Evil doesn't play fair...like Satan in Paradise Lost, the First Evil can sound deceptively reasonable, even friendly like, but when push comes to shove, the First will squish you like a bug. Some characters are being tortured, are suffering proving that this isn't a game, isn't kindergarden, it's a battle that Buffy just may lose, and the consequences of losing will mean suffering on a scale that would be impossible to imagine or even put onscreen.

PS. I don't think Marti or Doug Petrie have kicked any of their pets, they just write characters that will.

[> [> Excellent point, Rufus! And great example from a great book... -- Rob, 21:16:23 12/17/02 Tue

...although I took issue with King's stance against ever using adverbs. It got into murky water when he used them himself, and said, "Oh, but in this situation, I thought it would work, because..."

But that's kind of off-topic, isn't it?

Rob

[> [> Re: Sadism and the Writers -- ponygirl, 07:06:03 12/18/02 Wed

I agree with your points, Rufus. The torture scenes raise the stakes without killing off characters (well, not permanently in Mal's case), and they also generate a lot of sympathy for the suffering character. But I do have to say that after War Stories, BOtN, and the graphic battle scenes in Apocalypse Nowish, the ME writers do seem to be a lot more bloody-minded than in seasons past. Spike's torture didn't look as bad as Mal's (now that was an oucher!), but then it ain't over yet.

[> [> Sadism and the Writers - some clarification -- shadowkat, 18:24:08 12/18/02 Wed

Tried writing this up earlier - did it - didn't post. That's why haven't been able to answer anyone today - that and well xmas shopping and hanging out with family, what can one do? ;-)

Some clarification - didn't mean to give anyone the interpretation that I'm against sadistic writers - heck, I am one. Just ask the fanged four writers I wrote with this summer? Spike's torture scene in that fic was my idea. Also my novel - I'm trying to publish - replete with death and torture. No...what I was pointing out is that Whedon as a writer and his group seem to rely a bit too heavily on torture and graphic torture at that to further character and get across depravity of a villain.

Here's the resume:

Whedon wrote Toy Story 1 - the villain in that cartoon was a kid who tortured Toys. Very dark scarey subplot. Brillaint. But there you go.

Btvs
Witch - the tortures each cheerleader has
Out of Sight Out of Mind
What's My Line
Amends
Enemies
Becoming Part II
Graduation Day I
Choices
Primeval
New Moon Rising
Intervention
Tough Love
No Place Like Home
CwDP
Bring on The Night
Lessons
Villains
Two to Go
Grave
When she was bad
The Wish
(etc - which granted Btvs is a horror show that's too be expected , right?)

Ats
In the Dark
Deep Down
The House Always Wins
The Price
Five By Five
Billy
The Trial
Through the Looking Glass
Supersymmetry

(ANd btw both good and bad people do this.)

Firefly
Bushwacked
The Train Job
The Core (one where they invade the Alliance to see what's up with River)
War Stories
Objects in Space

(That's just a partial list - there are too many episodes to name.)

Now I love all of these shows - but it hit me in War Stories then in Bring On The Night that the use of torture in the stories was well getting as redundant as the writers desire to take off and keep off the shirt of any guy who is Buffy's current romantic interest. (Angel spent most of Season 3 Btvs with his shirt of off and good portion of S2,
Riley spent a good portion of Season 4 with shirt off, and
Spike is now spending a good portion of Season 6/7 with shirt off...also all three guys get the living crap beat/tortured out of them. Makes one begin to wonder if loving Buffy is necessarily a good thing. Certainly not great for one's health.) Now I'm not complaining - I like shirtless Spike/Angel , even Riley wasn't bad - not my type but whatever. But it is a little gratutious and does it really push the story forward? And after a while you get a little desentized to it and wonder, if maybe a little cliche and overdone on top of which...I start wondering if I'm a horribly sick/twisted person to prefer these three shows over every other show on tv when they just happen to feature the most torture on a by episode basis.

Prove me wrong...would make me feel much less sadistic.

Here I'll help : maybe torture is just part of the horror genre and since it also is part of life - it makes it more real?

SK (hoping she's not incredibly twisted for preferring Btvs, Firefly and Ats over tamer less violent/torture ridden shows such as Smallville, Charmed, West Wing, ER, Gilmore Girls.)

[> [> [> Re: Sadism and the Writers - some clarification -- JM, 20:11:47 12/18/02 Wed

Hmmm. . . They really do need to space some of this out a bit, yes. Haven't fully fleshed this out yet, but the quality/weight of the torture scenes seem to my tastes to have something to do with their context and relevance, like the difference between gratuitous violence and not gratuitous maybe. Torture scenes that I thought were plot necessary I'm a big fan of, those not so much make me a little uncomfortable (yes I'm sick). I also consider put psychological torture (like the "Ariel" -- that's your "Core" airlock scene) as a separate category. In the Buffyverse, I think that "Becoming II," "Intervention," and "Five by Five" (possibly also the "Trial," though that has more in common with "Deep Down") are not gratuitous, because I think that we learned something important about the victims, not so much about the ruthlessness of the villains. After "Intervention" and "Five by Five" no one in the audience is able to look at Spike or Wesley in quite the same way again. Their refusal to break under pain told us something about the moral strength and stubborness of the characters that even their fans were entirely certain of.

I was a huge Spike fan S5, but I honestly thought he was about break. Because he might be in love with Buffy, but he was also evil, and selfish, and scared, and really, really hurting. And he exceeded my wildest expectations, and displayed a purity of motive that no other experience would have brought to the surface. I was always a Wes supporter, even back in his smarmy BtVS S3 days, but I figured he'd break in moments. It wasn't even like he had the motivation of protecting information, Faith was doing it for the fun and to get Angel's attention. The only thing he had to protect was his pride, and come on, Wes hadn't got any, or not much, groveling was his art. Turns out though that you might be able to get to Wes with fear, but not with pain. And it also revealed for the first time something others learned the hard way (I'm looking at you Justine). You gain nothing from pissing off this man. The audience got their first glimpse of a completely different side of the failed Watcher this ep.

[This one I'm having much more difficulty articulating.] "Becoming II" is a little different, but I also think non-gratuitous. We already know that Giles is stubborn and brave and tough. We just didn't know quite how much. But the important part was that it seemed to complete what was begun in "Passions." Equal suffering gave him an equal moral weight with Buffy, one he didn't have back in "Prophecy Girl." He gets to deliver that smackdown in "Revelations," because although he may have suffered quite differently than Buffy, it's arguable that he suffered any less.

The rest, think there has been some gratuity, some artistic inclination for pain. Some of might have been better expressed in a less graphic, less physical ways. But those three, you can't take from me. (Although apparently Fox can take the sky from me after all, gorram it.)

Am withholding judgement on BotN, though in retrospect might have enjoyed some "Amends" style visions, they were driving Angel crazy because though they weren't real, they had happened. Most effective moment was pre-credits, with not-Dru's euphemistic language harking back to the topic which shall be named and JM's off-camera quite horrific scream. That's letting the imagination work for you.

[> [> [> [> Re: Sadism and the Writers - some clarification -- ponygirl, 07:39:27 12/19/02 Thu

I do agree that if I hadn't seen War Stories I might not be over-thinking the whole torture thing. There's just been a lot of blood and screams in the Jossverse lately. War Stories was pretty disturbing, not only for the graphic nature but also because Mal is a human character living in a more realistically depicted universe. Also I'm not entirely comfortable with the whole finding the measure of a person through how much pain they can endure. It's a device that's been used effectively in the episodes that you mention, JM -- my impressions of Wes and Spike changed quite a bit after their respective torture sessions. But oddly enough War Stories called attention to the fallacy of the idea with the discussion of Shan Yu.

Shan Yu's idea that you could find out something about a man when you hold him over a volcano seems ridiculous -- I don't think you'd find out much about a person beyond that nobody likes being held over a volcano -- yet is also somewhat celebrated on War Stories. After all Mal never cracks, and in the end he gets to turn the tables on his torturers. Can we ever see a character just not able to endure any more pain without that being a moral failing?

I honestly don't have a problem with War Stories, or the ongoing Spike torture (hey that's a time-honoured BtVS tradition) -- the Jossverse has long used physical suffering as a path to moral redemption -- it's just having several recent episodes feature torture so prominently makes me question my own acceptance of it as a device, and ME's possible over-reliance on it.

[> [> [> Sadism, are the Writers just warped are they telling you something...;) -- Rufus, 22:33:05 12/18/02 Wed

Some clarification - didn't mean to give anyone the interpretation that I'm against sadistic writers - heck, I am one. Just ask the fanged four writers I wrote with this summer? Spike's torture scene in that fic was my idea. Also my novel - I'm trying to publish - replete with death and torture. No...what I was pointing out is that Whedon as a writer and his group seem to rely a bit too heavily on torture and graphic torture at that to further character and get across depravity of a villain.

I didn't find the torture I've seen on any of Whedons shows to be overly graphic, as a matter of fact I find that he utilized sound to convey much of the impact of the tortured. To be a villian the use of physical or mental torture is the thing that makes the difference between a bad guy and a Big Bad. Whedon is at least honest with the use of torture, it is profane and should not be something we deal with in this world but unfortunately it is. I don't think we are desensitized as much as typically human in that we don't much think about torture or violence of the scale in BTVS til it's on our own doorstep. Now if Whedon gave me the idea that he personally thought torture was a neat thing, then I'd have to rethink my views on the show, but in my eyes he thinks that torture is something that only the delusional strong inflict on those they want to keep weak.

[> Re: Comments & Speculation - Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- Darby, 20:27:54 12/17/02 Tue

I didn't find it a great episode - too much to do and not easy to do it, they got sloppy.

The First Evil - it's in all of us, it's all connected, it's all about power, your power is rooted in Darkness, I feel that finally Buffy is going to have to face and embrace her own and everybody else's darkness. Expect lots of angsty character stuff as each one of our heroes comes to grips with the evil within themselves. No army is going to get this done, unless they're all sitting on yoga mats. But will a further triumph of Good ultimately be a good thing?

Giles - badly done. Sure, we didn't see him touch anybody, but has he ever returned and not been the recipient of many hugs? You can't get away with saying, "Well, we didn't show it, so it didn't happen." It's way too out of character for Willow, for Anya, even for Buffy. But I'm sure it's really Giles, and I still don't trust his information about the First.

Slayers in Training? My turn to do the Snoopy Dance - I predicted this turn a while ago. So who wins the audition for the spin-off series? Not Annabelle, whose departure defied explanation and who reached the Warehouse District way too fast (and who was pursued by a Buffy, alone and unarmed?? Dumb, dumb, dumb!).

Principal Wood - I'm sensing a connection to the Watchers rather than the First - being tapped into magic and having an office over the Hellmouth may have made him susceptible to Badness. Totally agree with the "Creepy," though.

Xander has become the glue of the group, which should position him for an important role in the future. Andrew has become annoying and useless - name one reason, other than needing him plotwise, that he wouldn't have been delivered to the cops by now.

Willow is going to have the hardest time coming to grips with her inner darkness, but is best suited to helping the others do it under controlled conditions - maybe that's why she's such a threat.

Spike - gratuitous violence and an excuse for Juliet Landau to give some odd variation of Drusilla. He may be the real First - the First to address and accept his own Evil (hell, I keep coming back to his being the reason for this whole thing).

Dawn - finally fully integrated into the group. And is she growing visibly during the episodes, or just between?

Anya - love the glasses, the renewed hints that Vengeance Demons do not take a vow of chastity. Her warm / annoyed rapport with Giles was largely absent - more hints or misdirection, maybe.

And - didn't like the pacing, thought the Slayerettes were awkwardly introduced, hated the smart Buffy / dumb Buffy jumps. Geez, the girl has used Holy Water as a Molotov Cocktail, she couldn't think of using a real Molotov Cocktail on this boober-vamp? -Or of making an effective weapon of the many available tools and power sources on the construction site? If this was the Buffy of Helpless, we'd have had a SMG replacement a long time ago. And the vamp was dull, dull, dull, serving no real purpose other than to advance some plot points. And, ya know, now they're going to have to acknowledge that Eastern martial arts were invented by vampires, since he predates them. Most of what I'm carrying from this episode comes out of the exposition - no wonder Giles was back.

A question - are the dreams a bit of retconning to Amends - were the dreams that she and Angel got now possibly from some non-First source?

- Darby, heavy with the first impressionism but sure to have more, possibly all contradictory, later on.

[> [> Totally agree on the glasses...Anya was adorable in them! -- Rob, 21:07:38 12/17/02 Tue

[> [> Follow-up: Premise Problems - Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- Darby, 12:21:28 12/18/02 Wed

Obviously no one's ever wiped out all of the potential Slayers before, so like a Slayer dying and being revived, whatever the Watchers may say will happen, they can't know.

But the premise is faulty anyway. How many teen-aged Slayers-in-Waiting are there at any given moment, waiting their essentially random selection? And how many of those sail through their prime Slayer years and are never selected? There should be a huge pool of older slayers (Justine, for example) that the Power could go to in an emergency. Might be interesting - a Slayer old enough to be Buffy's mom.

And then there are the prepubescent Slayers. And the toddlers. And the infants...

And even if they were all dead, no one can really know what the power would do - it might seek out a remaining Watcher. Giles did well with super witchy powers, do we want to see him really kicking butt?

I know that the show will follow whatever rules the ME PTB decide are working here, but there should be some sort of logic to it...

[> [> [> Re: Follow-up: Premise Problems - Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- Dochawk, 13:31:42 12/18/02 Wed

Darby,

I am so glad someone is bringing up these points. I am especially irked by what ME is asking us to believe about Giles as potentially a manifestation of the FE. I can certainly believe that Giles was killed and the FE could appear in his form. But I am being asked that at least 8 knowledgable people would act somehwat against character. Lets look at our three S-I-Ts. This strange man shows up tellign them that he is from the COW and to come with him and they want no proof? (Even with their watchers dead as we assume tehy must be). So they get on a plane with him to come to the US (since they are all British). Anyone try to get on a plane without handing your ticket and ID to the ticket agent? On an international flight? And obviously he has schooled these SITs in the situation somewhat, but no training? Giles didn't go a day with Buffy without training (and its clear at least in Kendra's case she was trained in weapons from the time she was identified).
But, I agree with you most about Giles appearance at Buffy's door. In NLM Buffy is desperately trying to find Giles. She craves his guidance? Yet no sign of relief when he arrives. We have seen two previous situations where this occured (early Season 5 when Giles returns the 1st time) and Two To Go. Buffy's initial reaction is relief and a hug. So the SITs interrupt the hug, it HAD to happen. And there is no chance he wouldn't get one from each of the other women, if not Xander. It is just not realistic to believe that would happen (and remember when last seen Anya has a crush on Giles!!!). There are more examples of this, if I went through it in detail, but if Giles is a manifestation of the FE we are being asked somethig I have never seen before to believe every other character behaves out of character in response to him. Besides this the episode makes it so obvious that they are trying to make us believe it that its just silly.

finally, the FE is obviosly dumb and doesn't understand human emotion (for example the FE as Cassie). Also it doesn't seem to be able to keep on in a form for a long time (let alone a 10 hour flight from London etc). the whole thing just doesn't make sense to me.

[> [> [> [> I doubt that is what will happen, though -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:04:06 12/18/02 Wed

Of course, you're assuming we'll be told Giles is really the First Evil. I think all the things where we never see Giles touch anything were just to get people suspicious and speculating. Also, after the Slayers-in-Training barged in, we cut away to a scene at least a few minutes later, I judge. There probably was the hug and rendevous, but it's not something we got to see.

Personal theory: Giles is a manifest spirit.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I doubt that is what will happen, though -- Dochawk, 14:47:55 12/18/02 Wed

Oh, my personal theory is that Giles is quite human at the moment. I was just complaining that this ruse is really lousy. If they do say that Giles is a manifestation, 5 episodes down the road, I will be truly disappointed.

[> Joyce's words and me feeling smug -- HonorH, 23:43:04 12/17/02 Tue

Joyce told Buffy the FE can't be defeated, that it's part of nature. It's entirely possible that's true. It can't be defeated. It can't be killed. But it can be counterbalanced if one isn't playing its game. I think Buffy's got the right idea, if the wrong ultimate plan. Don't let it call the moves, but also don't expect that it can be defeated. Pushed down, yes, made weaker, yes, but not defeated entirely. Buffy needs to concentrate on pure goodness, not on fighting. As long as there's some good left in the world, the FE hasn't won.

[> Re: Facing our fear, Evil, Finite Games, Choice, Bring on the Night (7.10 spoilers) -- ponygirl, 07:25:27 12/18/02 Wed

Nice thoughts SK! I think that Joyce was speaking the truth and in some vague way giving Buffy the key to defeating the First -- that it can't be defeated. Evil is part of everything, just as good is. What created the idea of evil? Well, I'd say that humanity did. That people give evil power over themselves, and that they have to take responsibility for their own darkness. I think that's what Joyce was saying when she talked about Buffy's friends putting too much pressure on her. Buffy feels she has to save everyone, that she alone is responsible. That's what possibly faux Giles kept telling her, the burden that Willow was trying to put on her ("don't make me, Buffy").

Buffy's speech at the end, about everyone seeking out their worst fears was good, but I'm going to wait and see if she really means it to apply to people other than herself. I think the FE still has a plan for Buffy - why didn't the Ubervamp finish her off? - and I wonder if taking on an impossible is part of it. If balance is supposed to be the goal will creating an army for good end up doing as much damage as the forces of darkness?

[> More metaphors...and Restless. -- Caroline, 08:34:00 12/18/02 Wed

Good coverage shadowkat. Another metaphor they used was baptism and rebirth. Spike was being drowned by the First - paralleling Buffy's drowning at the hands of the master at the end of season 1. I think that this definitely shows that Spike has endured his trials and has now been reborn as a good guy. So I think we know more about him than just thinking he's not evil.

I also thought that Giles was kinda funny in this ep until I remembered his fears from Restless. He was scared that he didn't have the intellectual capacity to defeat a villain. That's why he was being all deferential to Buffy. He's very very insecure right now - being hunted, council bombed etc. This leads me to the sense that Giles, Buffy, Willow and Xander will still need to use the individual abilities that they all have to defeat the First (hand, heart, mind, spirit)- not in a joining-spell type way in Primeval but in a very individual way. We've already seen how lacking Xander feels in terms of his heart function and how lacking Giles feels in his mind function. Also Willow - her spirit is sorely wounded right now. Buffy was also very insecure about her hand function in this ep against the ubervamp. At least at the end of the ep, she gets in touch with her courage and gives a real St Crispins day speech. I think we will soon see the rest of the foursome get their faith in their abilities back and really give it to the big bad. All part of my theory that the real big bad this season is the scoobies themselves - if they can overcome their own fears and weaknesses, they can defeat the big bad.

[> [> Add to that Buffy's drowning in season three's Bad Girls -- Rufus, 22:34:55 12/18/02 Wed

100 Things I Hate About "Bring on the Night" (7.10 spoilers) -- Rob, 19:11:51 12/17/02 Tue

MADE YA LOOK!

GOTCHA!

I LOOOOOOOOOVED IT TO DEATH!

What a way to bring on the action! That final speech! The Ubervamp! Dru! Did anyone else notice that Giles never touched anybody throughout the ep? Hmmmm...

Oh, and how great was it to see Kristine Sutherland back as "real" Joyce, meaning unlike CwDP and NA and even WOTW, she played Joyce the way we remembered her, speaking to Buffy as she used to. The dreams were very touching.

This episode really kicked the already thus-far brilliant season into gear in a big way. And how cool is it that Buffy and Co. are going to seek out this apocalypse instead of just waiting for it to strike first.

I loved that "we're an army speech" in a huge way.

And it kills me that we now have another few weeks off until the show is really back!

Rob

[> Almost didn't look. Glad I did. Agree on all pts. See my post below. -- shadowkat, 19:23:23 12/17/02 Tue

[> Great Misdirection - You should get a job with Mutant Enemy -- Sara, who was definitely got!, 20:43:51 12/17/02 Tue

[> [> Sorry...!!! -- Rob, 21:03:06 12/17/02 Tue

Guess the Ubervamp got me feeling kind of eeeeevil tonight!!

Hold up a minute...Could I be a Bringer?!? mwahahahahaha! ;o)

Rob

[> Well maybe not 100 but...(Spoilers for tonight's episode) -- matching mole, 20:57:00 12/17/02 Tue

In all seriousness I would have to regard this as the 'least good' episode of what has been an amazing season. My inclination is to put it down to personal preference and plotting constraints. A heck of a lot happened but it left me feeling curiously unsatisfied at the end. Sort of like a ten course meal at which you are only allowed one quick mouthful of each dish. There was a lot of potentially interesting stuff that just seemed to fade away to make room for the next event. Dawn decides to emulate Anya and act sadistically towards Andrew. A bunch of proto-Slayers show up and start to interact with the Scoobies. Buffy has an enigmatic encounter with the Principal. Each time I think - oh this could get interesting - and then we're on to something else.

There were things that I liked. Andrew, the least interesting of the Trio in S6, remained hilarious. After his Spike emulation in the previous ep. his comment about redemption cracked me up. And the Giles guessing game? That's going to occupy a lot of neurons in the weeks to come.

[> [> Really? -- Rob, 21:01:01 12/17/02 Tue

Honestly, it was my favorite so far out of the past three episodes. Although I greatly enjoyed "Sleeper" and NLM, I was vaguely dissatisfied with them. This was the first ep I thought was darn-near perfect since CwDP. I seem to have the same reaction to the past two that you've had to this one! Guess it's just a matter of personal preference. This ep struck all the right chords for me. And I thought the plotting and direction was brilliant, especially the Joyce sequences.

On the whole, I still have to say that this looks like it will be my favorite season.

Rob

[> [> agree with the mole.... -- Rochefort, 21:13:11 12/17/02 Tue

Not to rile up the "mickey mouse club -- buffy always rocks" people, but this is definitely the worst episode of a brilliant season.

[> [> [> Also agree with Mole -- Deb, 06:30:55 12/18/02 Wed

Least of greats.

Nice fight scenes, good to see Giles in whatever form he is, Andrew was a hoot, BB as Dru not up to the Dru I know and love, tired of torturing Spike scenes (and I'm beginning to wonder if he will ever wear a shirt again, and I'm a Spike fan.) SMG acting was good. Nice to see Joyce. Principal Wood is getting real creepy cool, but the conversation in the basement was just lame. That's it!
Lame conversation and I almost dozed off during the first commercial break. Even Anya's conversation was lame. But I do like the little grey vamps fighting style...smooth. Too bad they can't walk without limping. Nice to see Principal Wood's earring remain in the same earlobe all through the show. Like the First's transitions from Buffy to Spike and back. How many frames? Not many.

[> [> Re: Well maybe not 100 but...(Spoilers for tonight's episode) -- mucifer, 06:35:11 12/18/02 Wed

If they do one more episode where Buffy says "No this monster is scarrier than any other monster we have fought before and I dont know how we can defeat it... oh wait if we all work together and get all bad ass we will win" blah blah blah... it's really getting old.

The only things I liked about the episode were the mystery plots they have going with the principal and Giles.

[> People all over the world, join hands, start a love train... "Bring on the Night" (7.10 spoilers) -- Jay, 22:25:04 12/17/02 Tue

TEASER
Does it make you horny, or whatever? Research is going nowhere when Joyce appears to Buffy. Xander's and Joyce's lines overlap a wee bit, but not enough to tell us anything conclusive. Drusilla appears. Yea. Of course, it's not truly Drusilla, but the FE who controls all. Including Mr UberVamp.

ACT 1
Anya and Dawn waking up Andrew was funny. But Andrew just doesn't get it most of the time. Of course they are a step behind. The principal is far more intriguing than anything Andrew can reveal. He looks awful. This does allow Buffy and Dawn to work together for some reason other than expose Wood for more than he really is. Willow, Dawn, and Anya all working in the same immediate space was surprising. Willow's spirit of the first taking over was reminiscent of Buffy's first encounter with it when Jenny exploded over Buffy and disappeared. Xander insist on coming along, exactly when Giles and the Slayers, the next generation show up.

ACT 2
This is the one I had the most problem with, because my fricken cable company had a few 5 second interruptions during it. During Giles, Buffy, Andrew, Drusilla, Willow, and one of the apprentice Slayer chicks I missed dialog throughout. I could have punched a hole through a wall while this was going on. I did like Dawn looking over the potential Slayers and picking up weapons before Buffy authorized them. It cost the council their lives. Gag him. Giles gives his first fatalistic speech here. Giles' plan does seam a little short-sighted. No pressure. And then, Angel spends all summer under water, and we expect Spike's little time bobbing for whatever is suppose to hurt him? I don't think so. Then we have Buffy's first fight with the Ubervamp, without Giles's help pulling her out of the hole. But at the end we get to see Giles casting a long shadow over the scene.

ACT 3
My cable got much better by this time... Buffy gets her ass kicked a wee little bit. She is more willing to include the potential Slayers than we would have expected her. Buffy goes to her real world job. Where she interacts with Principal Wood, and who knows what that's all about? Spike tells Dru (FE) to piss off, and that Buffy believes in him. Buffy is showing more bruises than usual only to Joyce. "Evil is always here". What is Joyce, and what is Principal Wood. At least Xander is joking in the face of death. Willow explains her wiggins, but Buffy still has to fight a losing battle. Dude who is tied up to a chair has a bad feeling. Stop the presses. Touche'. Giles doesn't comfort the Slayer while Annabel get slaughtered by the Ubervamp.

ACT 4
Buffy fights and almost holds her own against the Ubervamp in an industrial complex. She thinks that she wins momentarily but fights to the end when she realizes she is up against it. Xander, Giles, and Willow pull her out of the wreckage. Buffy shouldn't have spit Slayer blood in the face of the Ubervamp. I get the feeling that was a bad move. How she survived, I don't know. Existential scoobies, rejoice. Buffy was Giles's plan. I really enjoyed Buffy's plan after this. The girl has a sense of destiny.

[> [> Y'know, I didn't mind the song The. First. THREE. THOUSAND. TIMES!!!!! -- Darby, definitely annoyed now, 06:29:48 12/18/02 Wed

[> [> Speaking of songs, how about the title song of last night's ep? -- cjl, 07:34:57 12/18/02 Wed

Here are the lyrics for "Bring on the Night," from the Police's third album, and Sting's live double LP (yes, back in the days of vinyl)....

The afternoon has gently passed me by
The evening spreads its sail against the sky
Waiting for tomorrow
Just another day
God bid yesterday goodbye

Bring on the night
I couldn't spend another hour of daylight
Bring on the night
I couldn't stand another hour of daylight

The future is but a question mark
Hangs above my head there in the dark
Can't see for the brightness
Is staring me blind
God bid yesterday goodbye

Bring on the night
I couldn't spend another hour of daylight
Bring on the night
I couldn't stand another hour of daylight

Bring on the night
I couldn't spend another hour of daylight
Bring on the night
I couldn't stand another hour of daylight

Marti and Doug used the title differently, though. Instead of welcoming the darkness as a respite from an uncertain future, Buffy practically challenges the darkness to a mano-a-mano death match. "Bring on the Night," as in, "Bring it on, baby, so I can kick your ass!"

[> [> [> Yeah, kind of like...(future, well-known spoiler re: casting) -- Rob, 16:07:14 12/18/02 Wed

...in the movie "Bring It On."

"First Evil, you want to fight me? Make sure you bring it!"

"Oh, I'll bring it!"

Ooh! Another reference to the impending arrival of Faith!

Rob :oD

[> I HATE THIS BLOODY EP!!!!!! (well, maybe not, but still . . .) -- HonorH, 23:24:12 12/17/02 Tue

Okay, so maybe that was overstating things just a tad, but seriously, it's going to be driving me nuts until we get new eps. Shall I rattle off a list of things that'll drive me nuts?

1. Giles

2. Giles!

3. Giles!

4. Giles!

I truly hate that ME didn't just give us a yea or nay as to whether he's dead! Instead, they have him be all standoffish with lots of lines you can interpret one way or another, and not touching anybody, and it's gonna drive me BLOODY CRAZY not knowing!!!!!

On the bright side, I loved seeing Dru again. She's always a treat, even when she's not herself. Liked the SiTs. Was it just me, or was Kennedy hitting on Willow?

What is up with Wood?

Can I slap Andrew, too?

And finally, Spike--I knew he was in for torture, and so he was. But how satisfying was it when FEDru asked him why he thought he could ever be good, and he answered, "She does. She believes in me." I just about melted, and I'm not a B/S 'shipper in any way! I loved that. Seriously did.

However, I think I'm gonna have to blow up ME now. How dare they raise so many questions and refuse to answer them?

[> 3 Things that Bothered me. otherwise much love -- neaux, 04:33:57 12/18/02 Wed

1. The Bad Re-dubbing or dubbing or whatever. The audio seemed like really bad post work. Maybe I'm nitpicking but there were specific scenes where of course you didnt see the character in question talking but heard his or her voice and it sounded fakey.

2. Xander's Sweeping Ability. Yes it was in Buffy's Dream, but for heavens sakes man.. if you are sweeping up Glass you dont sweep really big swooshes to fling glass all over the room.

3. The jumping from scene to scene. Specifically the commercial breaks. Was anyone else annoyed by

the girl who ran away from buffy's house.
Death.
Commercial.
Buffy is now in the Alley with the Vamp.
What the????

these are still nitpicks.. I really did think the ep rocked and loved the speech at the end.

[> [> One thing that really bugged me -- ponygirl, 07:42:02 12/18/02 Wed

... Was the sudden unexpected trashing of the timeline! There was all that careful establishing of the date in CWDP and every episode after was clearly shown to follow immediately after the last episode. No gaps, no "the other day" or "last week", it's been a day by day thing. And now all of a sudden "it's almost Christmas" and "I can't believe it's December". I can't believe it either because it should only be November 18th or 19th!!

Other than that I'd say it was a good solid episode. Didn't really soar for me until the final speech, but lots of plot-heavy tension.

[> [> [> Teasing is a good thing.... (spoilers) -- Briar Rose (loving it all), 16:37:31 12/18/02 Wed

I really thought it was one of the best eps so far this season.... I am taking it as it was all a set of teasers for the actual return to new eps and nothing more.

It almost feels like the ending of "the Gift" and the grave shot where it was totally freaky knowing that the show was going to continue - but HOW????

My only bad reviews go toward the bad edits and choppy cuts to commercials (as mentioned by others) and that the death of Annabelle (?) came too quickly and with absolutely no sense of context outside of her running out of the house, meeting the Vamp Grey and dying. WAS she running away? Was she actually going AFTER the First? I take it crosses don't bother Grey either, nor does a stake?

There were so many wonderful nuggets of mystery in here. I agree with Principle Wood, "I like mysteries....." and this episode left me with nothing but stronger withdrawels to deal with until we get through to January and the real meat of the story!

And the "We are declaring war..." speech! Man - I am so completely loving Buffy this year! Her power and emotional strength and her inner resolve are going to make me miss SMG as Buffy beyond anything that has been shown about Buffy during the past 6 seasons. She has grown up and become the force of all Woman. Scathatch in fact! Warrior Priestess and Daughter of Thunder.

[> [> [> [> I agree, and good point... -- Rob, 17:06:42 12/18/02 Wed

Phe last episode we had before the break was "Wrecked." Not such a great way to start the break. And then the one episode that aired during the break was "Gone." Now, I'm a fan of "Gone," but even I'll admit that it's not the most exciting, oh-yay-glad-the-show's-back-for-one-week experience. It would have been much better had it been bookended by other eps.

This one, though is a great choice for a tease about the rest of the year. The break started very strongly, with the climactic events at the end of NLM, and now that the show's back for just one week, they've picked an episode jam-packed full of mysteries and questions about what's going on this year, tons of action, comedy, drama, everything we love about the show.

I only have to say I disagree about the Slayer-in-training's death. I'm glad that that happened so quickly. I don't think we could have dealt with three new characters like that, all at once. I thought it was good to weed the group down a little from the get-go. Plus it was another great example of Buffy being shown that she can't fight this enemy. Her inability to save the girl echoes "Help," too.

Rob

Medical Help and the Origins of the Vampire Legend -- Celebaelin, 20:53:15 12/17/02 Tue

I was surprised to see that this thread has already been archived, people have been saying 'actually it's *porphyria*' (or words to that effect) to me all day, often without solicitation, so if you do want to know more go to

http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/diseases/porphyria.htm

This information on this site suggests answers to some technical questions that were puzzling me regarding what I'd heard by word of mouth but I won't burden you with speculation on what is, quite clearly, a matter of record.

There are, of course, other sites about the porphyrias.

[> Porphyria's Lover -- Rahael, 03:01:06 12/18/02 Wed

Actually the disease always makes me think of Browning's poem, which is also quite appropriate to Vamps in our tv show. Love and Pain and Death..

I read the poem long before I heard about the disease - that site is actually pretty confusing, though Celebaelin - lots of jargon, and more suited for a medical student.

[> [> Re: Porphyria's Lover -- Celebaelin, 22:47:16 12/18/02 Wed

I'll take that as a complement. How else are you going to start understanding the nature of the various porphyrias other than by studying them scientifically. Oral traditions' recounting the observed events resulted in the mythology. I suspect that Christian appropriation of the myth to describe the *other* demons and drive them out as an opus dei amplified the prejudice (and the crucifix thing). Actually this is not a metaphor but a factual account of how nasty some peoples lives were obliged to be in order that they remain as 'lives' rather than 'former lives'. I am, of course, on dodgy ground getting dogmatic about a disease I'd only barely heard of prior to being prompted to check it out by the lunas question 'but why the bloodsucking' but maybe I like the sound of my own keyboard too much. With appologies to anyone who read, and was bored by, my answer, for myself I have found out a bit more about the disease as a result of this exchange so it seemed reasonable to share this knowledge with an interested group who should be aware of the reality as well as the fantasy.

For our purposes ethology of vampirism must be discussed and the sybolism that makes it fascinating to the observer considered but this is poetic vampirism and not to be confused with the real world. With regard to reality it is perhaps more interesting to ask why are we so compelled by the stories.

It seems that there is a group of people in one of those scientific loose associations that are quite keen on the concept of eradicating the disease that is vampirism. I trust no-one objects.

Actually *porphyria's* means *porphyria is*, youre looking for the possessive *porphyrias'* I assume rather than porphyrias which indicates that the separate enzymic steps on the biochemical pathway at which it can be disrupted are considered to be, and indeed are, different forms of porphyria.

[> [> [> Re: Porphyria's Lover -- Rahael, 02:15:07 12/19/02 Thu

Sorry we are at cross purposes - I think I missed the previous thread, was there a description of Porphyria?

I just wanted to keep your post alive with a facaetious link to Robert Browning's poem. I did find that webpage difficult to understand, but you know, that's my limitation not yours.

Posting here is quite difficult for me at the moment - I was only trying to do a small act of keeping a thread alive until others noticed, I really cannot manage proper responses to things, so I try and do what I can.

Now I'm thoroughly confused! my brains are going to mush!

An Alternate Giles Theory (spoilers for Buffy 7.10 and 'The Sixth Sense') -- Shallott, 21:56:02 12/17/02 Tue

Hey, I've been lurking here for about two years, but have never gotten up th nerve to take the plunge into posting, mostly because I've always felt that with all the intelligent and extremely well-read posters here, I wouldn't be able to contribute anything worthwhile. I've noticed tonight, though, that nobody's yet brought up something that struck me as odd.

At first, I thought that Giles just had to be the First Evil, what with the not touching and everything. However, while it seemed strange that Giles didn't help Buffy climb out of that hole, his behavior, when nobody could see him, did not seem to break character. He didn't smile evilly or glare coldly. Instead, he put his glasses on in a very Giles-ishmanner and seemed genuinely concerned. This could be an oversight, but I really began to question him being the FE at this point.

Later on, Xander makes a reference to M. Night Shyamalan, and while not referencing 'The Sixth Sense' itself, it's possible a connection could be made here. After all, in that movie Bruce Willis turned out to be dead, and looking back, it was quite clear that he had never in fact interacted with anything. I wonder if this is ME's clue that Giles is, in fact, a ghost or in some other way dead, but still genuinely wants to help the Scoobies.

This opens up all sorts of problems, such as why he's visible while Phantom Dennis isn't, but I think this may in fact be the twist revelation after we've all decided that it's the FE.

OK, re-lurking now, unless I actually come up with something original to say again.

[> Re: An Alternate Giles Theory (spoilers for Buffy 7.10 ) -- SpikeMom, 23:27:17 12/17/02 Tue

The is he or isn't he question concerning Giles got my little pointy head thinking tonight as well. I did notice that Giles leaned on the Kitchen counter island towards the end of the episode as well as leaned against the kitchen wall in the same scene. I'm not sure if that counts as interaction or not, but there it was.

In regards to the First only being able to impersonate someone who has died...well we don't know Giles's life story, perhaps he was CPR'd at some point in his life and ME is going to do some sneaky retcon. Also, there is the Eihgon episode in his Ripper youth. In that instance the participants entered a deep sleep in order to be possessed, but maybe it counts. Finally, Giles seems to have a lot more witchcraft/warlock talent than he lets on. He may have been able to survive/revive a death blow from the Harbinger's axe because of it or because of residual effects of the Devon Coven's magic he carried to Sunnydale. I'm pretty convinced that what we saw was not Actual Giles. He and the manifestation of Joyce kept harping on the theme of Buffy getting some rest, sleeping, tending her injuries, taking a break...a whole "give it up" scenario that would keep the Slayer out of the action. In Amends, Angel's torment and the PTB's intervention came to an impasse at sunrise on Christmas morning. If that is a significant date, will ME keep the next episode airing in January in real time or will it still be Christmas in Sunnydale? So many questions, so few new episodes. Sigh.

[> [> Re: An Alternate Giles Theory (spoilers for Buffy 7.10 ) -- Sophie, 07:17:21 12/18/02 Wed

Giles leaned on the Kitchen counter island

I wondered about this too. So can he just not touch corporeal things (i.e., people)? If he can't touch ANYTHING, then he should fall through the floor - or float over the floor.

Once upon a time, when I was studying quantum physics, I learned that every time we touch something, we exchange molecules with that item - i.e., I get some of it and it gets some of me. After approximately seven years, I have exchanged 100% of my original molecules for lots of other molecules. Now, supposedly, the reason that I can't walk through walls or put my hand through a table is because the molecules of those objects are too tightly packed together and I lack the strength to separate them. But if I could, wouldn't I fall through the floor?

Now, back to Giles. We know from Andrew putting his hand through Warren (the First doing a good impression), that when Andrew "touches" Warren, it becomes obvious to all and sundry that Warren is not corporeal or at elast not physical. (Honestly, this is the state that one would expect Star Trek Holograms to be in - but they are amazingly solid to the touch!) This also goes along with Giles being unable to pick anything up - which would suggest that he can't lean on kitchen counters.

S

[> [> [> If he should sink through a kitchen counter. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:21:44 12/18/02 Wed

. . . than he should fall through the ground as well. After all, a non-physical being should theoretically just sink with the flow of gravity till it reaches the center of the earth and stay there for all eternity, or till the earth is totally destroyed.

[> [> [> [> Re: If he should sink through a kitchen counter. . . -- Sophie, 14:55:55 12/18/02 Wed

Ok. I'll go with the floating across the floor/ground theory - and he is doing a very good job of making it look like walking.

Sophie

[> [> [> [> [> leaning, etc. -- Rook, 15:26:36 12/18/02 Wed

If the 1st can appear in different forms, there wouldn't seem to be any reason that it couldn't just project its image at an angle with the wall/counter/etc to make it appear as if he's leaning on it when he really isn't.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I Must have been seeing things.... -- Briar Rose, 16:02:07 12/18/02 Wed

I could have sworn that Giles placed his hand on one of the SITs shoulders as he walked around the table talking to them about the First and Buffy's condition post fight.

I don't see much of a difference between Giles' persona now and first season.... In the first season he was extremely stand-offish when it came to touching anyone. He paced a lot and rarely sat down, prefering to lean or bend toward things. And I actually don't remember Giles hugging Buffy (or anyone but Jenny) until season 3. That was when he finally broke down and gave Buff physical comfort & support after the whole Angel thing.

Now his warm, fuzzyness in the end of season 6 threw me more than ep 7.10 did.... And even in the scenes with Giles and Willow in 7.1 - 7.3 he only touched her once tha I remember, on the shoulder standing in the door way when she was to leave.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I Must have been seeing things.... -- Shiraz, 00:45:05 12/19/02 Thu

Also, wasn't it Giles who layed the remaining files from the Watcher's Council on the Summer's coffee table.

Moreover, weren't these same files immediately picked up by Anya and Willow?

I could be wrong, but I thought that's what happened.

-Chris

[> [> [> [> Uh... What? -- KdS, 10:52:57 12/19/02 Thu

... a non-physical being should theoretically just sink with the flow of gravity till it reaches the center of the earth and stay there for all eternity.

Um, if it's non-physical then there won't be any gravitational attraction between it and the Earth.

[> [> [> [> [> Well, then he should go floating away -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:42:57 12/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> Leaning -- luna, 14:30:56 12/18/02 Wed

Doesn't FE as Morphy Spike lean against the wall when he sings to Spike in NLM?

[> [> [> Re: An Alternate Giles Theory (spoilers for Buffy 7.10 ) -- X1, 16:55:22 12/19/02 Thu

Manifestations of the FE may be affected by the physical world, but cannot affect the physical world.

[> The movie I think you mean is Signs... -- Rufus, 02:16:16 12/18/02 Wed

Great little clue they put in the show about M. Night Shyamalan , but when Xander said pantry that to me could only mean the movie Signs. So what is it about that reference that is either meaningless or a hint? Could it be that the First can't open a simple little pantry door? Remember, even the First says there are rules. In Signs an invasion of Earth by ET's was stopped by a man who had lost faith in himself, that and the fact that a simple element made all the difference and that element is water. So, will Buffy regain a faith in herself and defeat the First who seems to have the power....at the moment.

[> [> Now that you mention it... -- ponygirl, 10:13:51 12/18/02 Wed

The symbols carved into Spike's chest do kind of look like the crop circles in Signs. The message of that movie, which IMHO was wonderfully executed but a letdown in the end, was that everything happens for a reason. Also that seemingly insignificant details can become important. So if Xander's reference turns out to be significant it will be pretty cheeky! Kind of commentary on commentary.

But I do agree that faith (if not Faith) will be important in defeating the First. Why is Spike still alive? Seems to me that right now it's because it's because of his absolute faith in what Buffy sees in him. Buffy has a lot of people who believe in her, but with her superiority/inferiority complex I don't know if she feels that faith is justified.

[> Re: An Alternate Giles Theory (spoilers for Buffy 7.10 and 'The Sixth Sense') -- Lilac, 06:27:12 12/18/02 Wed

I had actually had a similar reaction. Although I must say I was hoping that this could have been an astral projection-ish kind of Giles -- with the corporeal Giles perhaps in hospital recovering from the attack we saw him about to under go. What concerns me is that both Giles and Joyce seem to be undermining Buffy's confidence, which doesn't bode well for Giles being the real Giles. It was awfully strange seeing him not touching anything in such an obvious manner -- hands in pockets. It was also strange not to see the Scoobies tackle him as they usually do when he shows up after an absence. What's the reason for that?

And isn't the principal getting suspicious with his spooky eyes? Reminded me of that evil penguin in the Wallace and Grommit episode.

[> [> Re: An Alternate Giles Theory (spoilers for Buffy 7.10 and 'The Sixth Sense') -- Kenny, 10:02:04 12/18/02 Wed

Several thoughts pertaining to this thread, so I'll consolidate in one post.

Re: Sophie. I thought about the counter thing as well, but remember that FE!Cassie sat down in CwDP. She didn't move a chair, she just made it look as if she were sitting in a chair. This is interesting to me, as it drives home the idea that the thing that created/creates evil is inside of us. FE can tap into certain senses that create our perception, notably vision and hearing. Because the First can choose who perceives it, everything must be happening "within" the perceivers head. There's no EM radiation in the visible spectrum entering the eye, no signals being sent down the optic nerve. As such, I have no problem believing that FE can make it seem as if it's sitting, standing, walking, or leaning, as long as the object seemingly supporting FE doesn't show any signs of supporting FE, such as buckling under weight.

Related to this is the "tackled by the Scoobies" argument. Even when we're not physically touching someone, we can often "feel" them in close proximity. Whatever you want to chalk it up to...heat off their bodies, an invisible "aura", whatever, there's something. I've got certain friends I can tell have been in the room because they have a distinctive smell. It's not necessarily something I'm concious of, but it's there. As I said earlier, when FE manifests, the visual and auditory "parts" of perception believe something is there. The other senses do not sense anything else. The mind, when creating conciousness, "realizes" that there's a discrepency. What does it do? My theory...assume that whatever's there, as vision and hearing are so important in creating reality, and don't do anything that would try to invalidate that and create a logical problem. In other words, subconciously the Scoobies are telling themselves not to hug Giles, that way their world order's not messed up. Which explains why, when seeing Giles out of the blue, Buffy's first instinct is to hug him, as the visual pathway is really the overriding factor in deciding that he's part of reality, but once everything settles and other senses are taken into account, she doesn't try to hug him.

Anywho, Giles is certainly being sketchy, and I'm not keen on his defeatist attitude. He does seem to be a more subtle version of FE!Cassie. But problems arise, such as transportation. How did he get across the ocean with the SITs and have no one notice his condition? If they flew, the above hypothesis wouldn't be enough to explain why they'd let him fly without buckling his seatbelt or handing them a boarding pass. Maybe the coven teleported them over. Willow didn't sense anything strange about FE!Cassie, so maybe the coven wouldn't either. Of course, a line saying that they teleported would be nice. Plus, Giles should be smart enough not to bring the SITs to Sunnydale, which even Buffy realizes. But this would all mean that Giles is dead, which nobody wants.

Another alternate theory. The Giles thing is a red herring. But that begs the question, why get all of the SITs in the same place, especially when said place is Sunnydale? Well, Robson told Giles to gather them. But was it really Robson? I want to rewatch 7.8 to see the scene where Giles finds him. Did Giles ever touch him? Were the wounds consistent from scene to scene? Maybe the plan was to get Giles there, have FE!Robson tell him what to do, and throw in a Bringer attack to keep Giles from really having time to think about it. Keep up that pressure for a couple of weeks, you've got a tired, demoralized Giles. And with all the Watcher safehouses compromised, the Slayer is the best protection for those girls. Not to mention that, if the Slayer falls, the next one will be in the right place, assuming all the SITs aren't dead by then.

All said, I still can't make up my friggin' mind. I'm in the "FE!Joyce/Thing Trying to Stop FE!Joyce" camp from CwDP. I think BoTN Joyce was either the real thing or SlayerDream!Joyce, but I'm convinced it wasn't FE. But this Giles thing is a real stumper. Oh, and then there are the materials "Giles" stole from CoW HQ. They could have been taken during the raid before the explosion. I bet Principal Wood would love this mystery.

[> [> [> going on a limb-spoliers for season 6 and 7 -- maxam, 08:56:16 12/19/02 Thu

going on a limb- before this episode aired i thought giles would turn up and that he may appear to be a manifestation of FE. However, I do not think FE makes "group appearances" but only manifests itself to an individual to try to manipulate/control them. i think giles may have survived the attack (or not been attacked) because he works for evil and perhaps always had to get buffy in a certain position for the ultimate battle. the slayers in training may be his minions. as i have said before it may be "what looks evil is really good" type things

also (random points responses)- as may have been pointed out he did not touch the files from the watchers counself but one of the slayerettes took them out of a knapsack

also- the vamp holden worked at the sunnydale mental hospital, possibly the same institution buffy was at in "Normal Again"

[> Re: An Alternate Giles Theory (spoilers for Buffy 7.10) and 'touching?' -- pellenaka, 13:17:33 12/18/02 Wed

I was kinda confused when Buffy didn't get help to come up from the hole. Suddenly, we sees Buffy's somewhat surprised face and a silhuette in the sunset. UberVamp goes back into the hole and we are left with a surprised/odd-looking Buffy face. I was wondering: Was the silhuette Giles or Spike or? I wasn't sure before I saw Giles step in the kitchen.

About the 'not-touching-thing' thing: He told us that the FE can't take corporeal form? The FE itself and Giles, who could also be FE.
FE could be lying, you know. It is possible that it can be touchable or untouchable if it wants to.

Uber-vamp thoughts/speculation/theory (spoilers for Bring on the Night) -- Mystery, 04:31:52 12/18/02 Wed

So here's my thought on the Uber-vamp and staking.

Giles states that these things are to vampires as neanderthals are to humans (hmmm...are they vamped neanderthals? Ugh...stay on target!!). So wouldn't that mean their physiology is different from a typical homo sapien based human? So when Buffy went for this thing's heart: she missed.

They did make a point of it in Lessons when Dawn missed the heart and Buffy said her first time against a vampire, she missed too. This is her first time against an Uber-vamp.

I have a feeling that Dawn or one of the potentials will figure this out in the middle of fighting this thing. You know, heat of the moment, "I need to distract this thing! A stake through the breastplate might work!" and *poof* no more Uber-vamp. Most likely it will be Dawn, but I'm kind of rooting for Kennedy to do this...I like her already.

Anyone else have thoughts on the Ubervamp?

[> Thoughts on the Tolokahn, how to kill this sucker. -- Majin Gojira, 07:31:25 12/18/02 Wed

First off, since Giles compared it to a Neanderthal, lets all recall what makes a neanderthal different from a human being:

- Shorter, stockier body
- Stronger and more durable body/thicker bones
- Larger Brain
- More worn teeth
- Does not React well to change (which is why they went extinct).

Now. we've already seen that this Vamp is stronger and tougher than other Vamps (probably because whenever a writer hears the word 'Prehistoric', they automatically think tougher).

I also noticed some other things about the uber vamp Tolokahn.

- Denticia: Sharpened incisor teeth as well as Fangs
- Long Claws: Which it did not seem to use at all in its battle with Buffy
- Odd ability: Something about this creature seemingly caused Buffy's Slayer Healing to not act as well, be it an infectious agent or an aurora of decay or whatever.

How to Kill this thing:
First, let me state that a neanderthal's heart was probably close to where out heart is today, Buffy might not have reached it with her stake (she might have to get at it from behind the damn thing).
It is interesting to note that Holy Objects did not effect the Tolokahn in the slightest.

- Sunlight: we've seen this work on the vamp
- Decapitation: Well, we've only seen one creature grow-back it's head in the Buffyverse, and that was on Angel
- Fire: to quote Frankenstien's Monster "Rah! Fire Bad"
- Cutting out it's heart? Possibly, allueded to in the episode (how will they keed the damn thing down?!)

Best course of action: Use the rocket launcher, or try and dig up the great Troll Hammer (what happened to that thing!?!) and smash in the Tolokhan's head.

[> [> What we think on the Tulakhan and its destruction. -- WalkingGhost and The Pocket Editor, 16:40:44 12/18/02 Wed

We personally opine that fire is the better bet. Perhaps it is because of the primal allusion to the "First" evil. Fire is the most basic destructive force and the first one to be discovered by man.

[> [> Doesn't seem to be very bright -- CaptainPugwash, 17:36:13 12/18/02 Wed

This things weakness appears to be its lack of (human) intelligence. It's like a wild tiger or something; deadly, but dim.

[> [> [> Re: Doesn't seem to be very bright -- Corwin of Amber, 18:00:06 12/18/02 Wed

>This things weakness appears to be its lack of (human) intelligence. It's like a wild tiger or something; deadly, but dim.

Actually, I have a problem with that. It was stated on screen that these things are basically beasts, but it didn't fight like that. It fought like a martial artist in a suit. :) I know that's because they have stuntman on hand and need to justify having them, but it didn't jive with the description given. It should have used it's teeth and claws, it should have hissed and spat and gone for the throat, and tried to drag it's prey to the ground. It should have fought stupider than it did, and it would have been more frightening.

[> [> [> [> The First is controlling it, like a puppet. It doesn't need brains. -- OnM, 19:59:04 12/18/02 Wed

BTW, I go with the rocket launcher idea, too!

;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The First is controlling it, like a puppet. It doesn't need brains. -- Mystery, 04:47:04 12/19/02 Thu

Buffy does have one of those handy too. Here's hoping that Spike and Xander didn't dispose of it after "Him"

[> [> [> Re: Doesn't seem to be very bright -- Corwin of Amber, 18:00:37 12/18/02 Wed

>This things weakness appears to be its lack of (human) intelligence. It's like a wild tiger or something; deadly, but dim.

Actually, I have a problem with that. It was stated on screen that these things are basically beasts, but it didn't fight like that. It fought like a martial artist in a suit. :) I know that's because they have stuntman on hand and need to justify having them, but it didn't jive with the description given. It should have used it's teeth and claws, it should have hissed and spat and gone for the throat, and tried to drag it's prey to the ground. It should have fought stupider than it did, and it would have been more frightening.

[> Re: Uber-vamp thoughts/speculation/theory (spoilers for Bring on the Night) -- ceej, 23:36:33 12/18/02 Wed

Nitpicking?

Okay so this vamp is a true vampire... What bugs me is how it beat the crap out of our Slayer. I mean lets look back at her other enemies... Glory, had like super strenght far beyond Buffy's, she wasn't beat up at all when they fought.

So you guys think that this ubervamp is the kind of vamps the First Slayer fought??

Terrible Twos (Bring on the Spoilers) -- neaux, 04:51:59 12/18/02 Wed

I have no answers only BAD Theories. -me (me me not ME me)

At the beginning of chat I brought this up, mostly in jest and fun but something in the back of my warped head wonders if its a possibility.

THERE ARE TWO FIRSTS!! You heard me. Two Firsts. Completely impossible?? I doubt it.

But lemme do a quick list of the terrible twos.

Two Slayers.
Two Slayers in training.
Two Vamps with a Soul.
Two scoops of raisins.
Two Firsts.

as I stated above I have no answers to how this could play out.. because wouldnt the second first become the second and not the first?
I mentioned that a theory on two firsts could possibly follow the Chicken and Egg theory. with a lot of unexplainables.
anyhoo some other people in chat had a few theories of their own. Could there be a Male and Female first?

and could there be a first to do this and a first to do that.. making two firsts??

I dont know but it sounds good and the whole reason I came up with this lame theory is because of the scene with Buffy and Wood talking about movies and mystery. Why? Because it made me think of the movie SCREAM. Where of course there were TWO KILLERS.

and on that note I'm going back to my delusional world!

[> Re: Terrible Twos (Bring on the Spoilers) -- Caroline, 07:47:09 12/18/02 Wed

Neaux, that is a great theory - didn't get the chance to say it in chat. My personal plug in this theory is a masculine and feminine energy for the first. In myth, you always have this pairing of energies for the source of anything. Why not the source of the first evil? I also like the idea of a psychologically complex first - dark and darker sides. Or a fractured persona first (it's gotta be rough morphing into so many people).

[> Re: Terrible Twos (Bring on the Spoilers) -- Mystery, 08:07:31 12/18/02 Wed

They have flat out said there are Two Firsts (quotes from Psyche)

Giles: These letters contain references to a, a, an ancient power known as The First.
Buffy: First what?
Giles: Evil. Absolute evil, older than man, than demons.

TARA: (offscreen) I have no speech. No name. I live in the action of death, the blood cry, the penetrating wound. (The woman straightens up and looks Buffy in the eye.)
TARA: I am destruction. Absolute ... alone.
(Buffy frowns.)
BUFFY: The Slayer.
(The other woman looks at her.)
Tara: (offscreen) The first.

[> [> Re: Terrible Twos (Bring on the Spoilers) -- 110v3w1110w, 10:00:36 12/18/02 Wed

maybe there are two powers at work but one of them may not be bad. there has been talk about balance on the show s i would say that in order for there to be balance because there is a first evil there has to be some sort of force to balance it (which i don't think is the slayer or the PTB) some kind of first force for good. this would explain about joyce and giles as joyce is certainly dead but it could be the first good taking her form to help buffy and apear to dawn and also giles could very well be dead and what we see now is somthing apearing as giles but it may not be evil and it would be the force for good apearing as giles to help buffy. it could also explain the conversations with dead people thing about the first apearing in more than one place at the same time it could that it didn't cassie was the first evil, joyce was the good force and the vampire was just a vampire that was only in the show as a plot device so that buffy can find out about spike.

[> Re: Terrible Twos (Bring on the Spoilers) -- acesgirl, 13:21:13 12/18/02 Wed

Perhaps this is why souled Spike is so important, because all the other twos were already in place? Perhaps Spike receiving his soul somehow set this whole thing in motion?

I really like this theory neaux. It's darn good.

For those who hate that I committed the cardinal sin and led this thread to Spike, feel free to curse me under your breath. I won't know and it will make you feel better, so it's all good. :-)

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