April 2002 posts


Previous April 2002  

May 2002

Next Episode (Not spoilers, just a question what anyone may have made of that preview) -- AngelVSAngelus, 18:15:11 04/30/02 Tue

What did anyone make of that preview for the next episode of Buffy? It was entirely too ambiguous for me. I like to know SOMETHING to expect, not all but something...
[> WOE! Woe, had but someone posted sooner I'd not have... -- AngelVSAngelus, 18:48:30 04/30/02 Tue

Forgive me, posters, for I have sinned. So consumed with my curiosity as to what happened next in our Slayer's saga, so strong was the anxiety induced by the ambiguity of that preview, that I did something to alleviate it that I've NEVER EVER done before: I, dare I admit it, read a spoiling Wildfeed, the one for Seeing Red.
Of course I dare not spoil any of you. I only wish that someone had of stopped me!! I feel... oddly guilty. And as if I've cheated myself. Among other things.
[> [> Re: WOE! Woe, had but someone posted sooner I'd not have... -- shadowkat, 19:00:34 04/30/02 Tue

Yes...we've all done it. I did it for AYW, ruined the episode for me. Your forgiven.

I should have answered you and just told you the general spoilers...all I can say is Seeing Red reveals the BSD
and the BB. It is the season's climax. All the main characters come to a cliff and their lives change dramatically because of it. (Spike/Buffy/Willow/Tara/Warren/Dawn...)Also Seeing Red may be, if the spoilers I've read are true, the most painful, difficult episode of BTVS
that any of us have ever watched. I've already warned a parent of two teenage girls to either watch it with them
or at least watch it before they see it. Will be interesting
to see if ME can pull this off.

I have not read the wildfeed. All i know were the spoilers
leaked way back at the end of Feb/beginning MArch for
Entropy/Seeing Red and some of Villains. That's when I went off spoilers permanently. I've been off wild feed since AYW.
And it's totally been worth it.

I'd been dreading Entropy from the small spoilers released, and better than I expected. Entirely worth the wait and nothing at all like the April fool's wildfeed mentioned. Actually it was ten times better.

So forgive yourself. And just don't do it next time ;-)
[> [> [> Re: WOE! Woe, had but someone posted sooner I'd not have... -- Lilac, 05:53:43 05/01/02 Wed

I am not going to get into what I know about next week's episode (from having read the wildfeed), but I would second shadowkat's recommendation that this is not an episode for kids to watch, or at least not to watch without parental input. The cryptic preview did allow me to have a discussion with my 15 year old this weekend son, that I also won't get into for spoiler reasons, that I think proves the value of supervised exposure to controversial material for kids who are old enough to handle it -- but I will talk about that next week.

I have a lot to say about this week's episode, but, drat it, I have to go to work.
[> [> [> [> Re: WOE! Woe, Spoilers, Seeing Red -- LeeAnn, 20:49:23 05/01/02 Wed

I've just watched a clip of "the scene" and it's not an episode for anyone who likes Spike to watch. In fact I think it may have ruined the show for me. It certainly invalidates his love.
For the life of me I can't understand why ME did such a scene unless its sole purpose was to make Buffy sympathetic and make people hate Spike. Maybe that's what SMG wants but those of us who watch for Spike will not be happy.
I'm not happy.
[> [> [> [> [> LeeAnn about that scene...(SPOILERS) -- shadowkat, 05:58:24 05/02/02 Thu

I haven't seen it yet or read any of the summaries
or wildfeeds, I just know the general spoiler and my mind has made it out to be pretty bad from all the reactions I've seen on the boards to it- the reason I haven't read spoilers or watched a clip? Because I want to see it in the manner the writers meant me to - within the context of the show.
Otherwise I won't understand their meaning. It's like reading a chapter of a book or a section of a chapter out of sequence. My suggestion - watch next weeks show and see
if you change your mind. You might not. But who knows.

Here's an example of a famous scene that makes no sense
out of context: Luke & Laura in GH. Another one: Angel
and Buffy in Amends. Without seeing Becoming and Innocence
it is hard to understand Amends.

Also regarding that scene - I know why they are doing it.
It's important. But I'm not sure the audience will be able to handle it enough to see past the pain and get the complex metaphor. That subject matter is very explosive and offensive to too many people. Think about that old movie Fatal Attraction with Glenn Close when you see it next week...that will help.

Last night I re-watched Harsh Light of Day - sEason 4 Btvs.
I suggest you re-watch it. These are complex characters..
Watch their fight scene again. Then rewatch entropy, Lover's
Walk and Where the Wild Things Are as well as Dead Things.
And I think you'll see what's going on and where things are
going.

If I'm right - that scene you hate is necessary to
throw Spike on the path we all want him to take. He needs to do something so horrific that it will snap him one way or another. Whether we the audience can forgive him for
it is something we each have to deal with individually
and has a great deal to do with our own personal experiences. But it will be a similar reaction to what Angelus did in Passion...and Angel did last year to the
lawyers and to Darla. All I ask is that we have the strength
to respect each others reactions to it and try to remember
the characters are fictional not real, just actors performing on a stage with a lot of lights and cameras, and
the characters they bring to life are at the whims of writers attempting to present complex themes about why we do the things we do based on the writers experiences. It's never black and white. It's murky.

Not sure if that helped or not...just my two cents for
what it's worth.
[> Re: Next Episode (Not spoilers, just a question what anyone may have made of that preview) -- trollop board frequenter, 18:52:05 04/30/02 Tue

I've been following the spoilers for the last while, I've been finding out everything I possibly can and I have to say that there are many things in the commercials that I could not figure out.

And as for next week's preview, I was especially unnerved by the "forget all you've been told" bit. I'm wondering if they're pulling something crazy on the spoiler people.
[> [> Yes, what was that bit with the scenes for upcoming eps? -- Veronica, 21:11:29 04/30/02 Tue

I just posted a similar message on the Trollop board...I know (according to the spoilers) what is supposed to happen, but I couldn't figure out what they meant by "forget what you've been told."

I thought the scenes for the upcoming eps were in line with the spoilers I've been reading. I think UPN is just trying to fool us...unless Joss decided to change something last minute. We're all going to watch it anyway, so I don't what they are thinking!
[> They said something like "whatever you heard isn't true" or "it's not what you expect" -- yuri, 23:47:13 04/30/02 Tue

and I must be a very good virgin, because I have no idea what they're talking about! I'm curious as to what rumours they're referring to. We shall see, we shall see.

Thanks for your second post, AvA, because sometimes it's real hard and it's good to get some reinforcement from fellow un-spoiled folk. I'm sorry for your woe, but now you'll never do it again, right? We've all had our indescretions.
[> [> Re: They said something like "whatever you heard isn't true" or "it's not what you expect" -- Nos, 23:59:00 04/30/02 Tue

Well, I have seen the episode, and, to my horror, everything I heard was true. WARNING: NOT for the light of heart.

Unless, they spent tons of money and made a fake epi and relesed it early, just to throw everyone off. I am kinda hoping they did. But it's highly unlikely. I havent seen the trailer, they didn't show one here...*scowls* But from what others have told me, it's the same epi I have.
[> [> [> Serious SPOILERS in above post!! -- LittleBit, 00:10:47 05/01/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> whew, thanks LittleBit. -- yuri, 00:26:36 05/01/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: They said something like "whatever you heard isn't true" or "it's not what you expect" -- neaux, 04:42:08 05/01/02 Wed

It would seem logical for the creators to throw the world for a loop and release a fake episode over the internet, Therefore re-emphasizing the nerds' role on the show.

If the nerds represent such Buffy fanatics, those that wished to be spoiled, would be in for quite an elaborate ruse. They would fall prey to a big hoax and the joke would be on them.

But I do agree with you that it would be very cost inefficient to go to such extremes and I doubt this scenario would actually come true. But Boy wouldnt it be cool!!

BTW (I just wanted to say elaborate ruse in a sentence.)
[> Re: OK, now I really can't wait! -- verdantheart, 06:54:32 05/01/02 Wed

After the wait, one hour seemed entirely too brief. I didn't get a trailer. Is there somewhere it's posted?
[> Possibly a spoiler; -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 14:42:34 05/01/02 Wed

We may be enroute to the field of Camlann.
[> [> Re: Possibly a spoiler; -- Liz, 14:57:08 05/01/02 Wed

Ok, I have to ask: what?

If explaining requires putting extreme spoilers out there, can you do that and simply warn in the title of the message?
[> [> [> Possibly a spoiler; -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 13:26:06 05/02/02 Thu

Apologies; I have a taste for melodrama.

IIRC the Field of Camlann was the final battle for the Round Table. This is where Arthur and Mordred finished each other off; more to the point the Knights of the Round Table divided and killed each other. This, of course, destroyed all that Arthur had tried to do to make his kingdom safe.

If the developments in the spoiler-teaser for "Seeing Red" are accurate (a major "if") -- if Spike and Willow, shall we say, depart the group -- we may see elements of the Scooby Gang fighting each other. This would be much to the delight of the creatures of darkness in Sunnydale.
[> [> [> [> Above post is DEFINITELY a SPOILER for Seeing Red -- LillteBit, 13:51:33 05/02/02 Thu

Quick thoughts on "Entropy" (Spoilers) -- Rob, 21:34:44 04/30/02 Tue

I really don't have time to post right now, but I had to get these thoughts down before I went to sleep.

You guys all know me...It goes without saying that I loved the episode. I hope that it won over some of the Drew Z. Greenberg haters. Even though his previous two efforts were a little unpolished here or there, I was a big supporter of him from the beginning. This episode, however, I think he finally proves himself. He has a firm grasp of the characters, and most of that new-writer-on-an- established-show awkwardness is gone now.

Now, I do confess that I read the spoiler that Anya and Spike would be having sex. When I heard that, I assumed that (a) it would be played for laughs and (b) it would be unimaginable...Anya and Spike?!? But this episode surprised the heck out of me in how much sense it really made. We so rarely see true Spike/Anya interaction that it is easy to forget how much they have in common. For so long, they were both "neutered" demons, deprived of that which makes them not human, and yet still not like other humans. This common bond is something that totally escaped me until I saw the two of them together in this episode. Spike was very warm towards her, and she to him. I loved seeing this side of their relationship play out, mostly, because it is a huge plot twist that actually makes sense character-wise. I was worried that it would just be a big shocker for the sake of being a big shocker, with no logic behind it. Now, it is clear to me how logical it is. Spike represents all that Xander hates...a demon, a soulless thing, even though he ignored the truth that Spike is not the same anymore, and that his own fiancee was one as well, and now is one again. Anya's sleeping with Spike, however, doesn't only symbolize her return to demon-ness, because neither of them, despite themselves, are very demony any more.

And it wasn't played for comedy at all...These are two characters in genuine pain, and it came off as very touching, sweet, desperate, and sad.

Anya's plea to Spike, at the end, to not make a wish, was a perfect "Buffy" plot twist. This year more than ever, the show has found a way to deliver a surprise that makes total sense, and yet could not be guessed. Further, the surprise usually is more shocking because it is more based in reality than the fantasy that dominates the rest of the show. Buffy, this year, for example, thought she was half- demon. The revelation that she was perfectly normal was an even bigger shock, and more emotionally relevant than if she had been a demon. Here, too, the fact that Anya, when she finally has chance to wreak the veangance she's so wanted, refuses it, holds much greater emotional resonance and impact than if she'd taken the easy route (in a manner of speaking) and used her powers to smite Xander. Sometimes a lack of magic can be even more powerful...

Other things I'm happy to report about this episode:

--Dawn is becoming less annoying. She stopped only thinking about herself for the first time in a long time, and is trying to make up for her past transgressions...and that makes me glad. (And, oh, how I loved Buffy's "you're only a year and a half line!!)

--Willow and Tara...Willow and Tara...and, oh yeah, Willow and Tara!!!

--Willow using the computer again. Yeah, I know she's already done it a few times this year, but watch her decrypting all that stuff, and breaking into on-line places she shouldn't be was the first hardcore computering we've seen her do in a long-time. This was old-school hacker Willow, and I was so glad to see her back!

--Just had to make a note of how much I loved that scene montage of sorts, with Anya begging Buffy, Willow and Tara, and Dawn to wish evil on Xander.

--I thought the near-the-end-scene with Xander, Buffy, Spike, and Anya was so brilliant. And it fit perfectly with the characters. Ever since Giles first told Xander, in "The Harvest," to remember that VampJesse was not his friend, but the thing that killed him, Xander has been completely unable to see that a demon is capable of any good or humanity. And to be confronted head-on with the fact that not only did his fiancee sleep with this "thing," but so did his best friend...and to have it further pounded into his head that his fiancee was a demon and so his black-and-white view of them is unfair, only to make him more angry and confused...well, I just thought it was great. "Dawson's Creek" and other shows like that should take a memo from "Buffy" on how to do angst right!

--Visual symbolism alert! How perfect was it that, during Willow and Tara's reunion scene, Willow's dress from OMWF was hanging on the door?!? But is this a good omen, that their love is now being renewed once more...or is it a bad omen, that Willow's magic may resurface again? It remains to be seen...

I know there are very few people here who agree with me, but I think this season is BtVS' finest, and this episode only reinforces that for me...not that I could ever dislike an Anya-centric episode (they're so few and far between!).

Rob
[> Also... -- Rob, 21:48:32 04/30/02 Tue

...just had to brag that I guessed that Anya's "I wish you were never born" line from the promo would not have worked before the ep. Last week, there was a post here where people were saying how that wouldn't work, since Anya needs someone else to make the wish, or it would be messing w/ continuity. Very glad to see that the continuity is intact!

Further, it hammers home the idea that Anya, as she becomes more human, is forgetting the things that came so natural to her as a demon, namely that she can't make the wish...a human has to. This is a great continuation from OaFA, when she forgot that a sword wound couldn't kill Halfrek...Another script penned by Drew Greenberg, by the way. I love when writers can keep up the continuity between their own scripts. Drew has pushed Anya's character in more unexpected ways than any of the other writers, I believe. She is not just comedy relief to him. He sees the deeper side of her character more than many of the other writers, I believe.

Rob
[> [> Entropy thoughts -- Wynn, 22:07:12 04/30/02 Tue

I was also shocked at the level of emotions between Spike and Anya in the Magic Box. EC was brilliant. Her portrayl of the utter devastation from Xander's abandonment of her at their wedding was funny (in her attempts to get one of the SG to wish revenge on Xander) and painful (the confession to Spike about how much it hurts).

And I agree with you. I love Season 6. Yesterday, I was thinking about the previous episodes of the season, and I realized that most (really almost all) of the episodes are excellent. The season started strong (Bargaining to Life Serial); OMWF, TR, Dead Things, Normal Again, and Hell's Bells are awesome; I loved Smashed and Wrecked (excluding the Rack stuff), Gone and All the Way. The only episode I really didn't care for was As You Were, but that's just because of the portrayl of Riley and his "perfect" life.

I can't wait for next Tuesday.
[> [> [> Re: Entropy thoughts -- Robert, 22:56:31 04/30/02 Tue

>> "The only episode I really didn't care for was As You Were, but that's just because of the portrayl of Riley and his "perfect" life."

And yet, this was a necessary episode, because it defined the new direction of Buffy's relationship with Spike and put her back on the road to recovery. I also found this episode tough to watch, and I may never watch it again. Regardless, I found it emotionally powerful.
[> [> Addendum... -- Rob, 17:08:34 05/01/02 Wed

When I said, "a human has to make the wish," I was, of course, wrong...It is "the scorned party," whether he or she be human or not.

Rob
[> [> [> Re: Addendum... -- Rattletrap, 19:53:01 05/01/02 Wed

Actually, do we know that for sure? Would Spike have been able to make a wish, or would the fact that he's a vampire get in the way? Just one of those things left open for future exploration, I guess.
[> [> [> [> Re: Addendum... -- Rob, 06:35:53 05/02/02 Thu

Guess that's true...We don't know. I just kind of assumed it would work, since Halfrek encouraged Anya to go for Spike to make the wish. Unless she was just being mean, even though she knew it wouldn't work.

Perhaps, though, since a vamp is something of a human/demon hybrid, and not pure demon, it makes it possible for a vamp to make a wish. Do we know for sure that a non-human can't make the wish? Could another demon, for example, make a wish?

Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Addendum... -- Littlebit, 08:39:55 05/02/02 Thu

I think maybe vengeance demons can't grant wishes for themselves or each other, which would explain Halfrek not offering to grant Anyanka's wish. Which is a good thing, since vengeance demons are recruited from those most likely to go over the top when angered.

It may be possible for another demon to make a wish, but I think it unlikely. There seems to be too much rivalry among the demon races/factions/dimensions for one to put itself in debt to another just for vengeance, which any demon should be quite capable of exacting for itself.

Other than that, I've not seen a limitation.
[> Re: Quick thoughts on "Entropy" (Spoilers) -- Robert, 23:40:58 04/30/02 Tue

Rob, I very much enjoy reading your thoughts. You've given us a great posting.

>> "... but I think this season is BtVS' finest, ..."

Yes, this is by far the best. Joss and the other writers have taken a huge risk in bringing us to these very dark places. For some of us it is paying off. Hopefully, after the end of the season, others will feel the same way.

This season's story arc seems almost too big to tell in just 22 episodes. Previous seasons have included a few episodes which did not directly serve the seasonal arc. Every episode this season has been necessary to advance the story.

>> "Here, too, the fact that Anya, when she finally has chance to wreak the veangance she's so wanted, refuses it, holds much greater emotional resonance and impact than if she'd taken the easy route (in a manner of speaking) and used her powers to smite Xander."

Farthermore, Anya hurt Xander much more by having sex with Spike than if she had merely smote him with her cruelest vengeance spell. This is the wicked Whedon irony at work here. When Anya wants vengeance she can't get it. After she's moved beyond vengeance she strikes a mortal blow.

>> "And to be confronted head-on with the fact that not only did his fiancee sleep with this "thing," but so did his best friend..."

As we have seen over the years, Buffy is more than merely Xander's best friend. I'm not saying that Xander still has any romantic interest in Buffy. She is almost like a big sister Xander idolizes and a little sister Xander must protect from harm. In "Hell's Bells", Xander seemed almost as upset about the visions of him getting Buffy killed, as he was by the visions of him hurting Anya.

I'm guessing that knowing that Spike and Buffy were involved may hurt Xander even more than Anya's rebound indiscretion. I would also like to point out that Spike was purposely twisting the knife in Xander when he dropped that little item. Spike may be different this year from his association with Buffy, but is still not a nice person (or vampire).

>> "Spike represents all that Xander hates...a demon, a soulless thing ..."

We've always known that Xander disliked Spike. But to hear the venom Xander spit out tonight gave me a real jolt. We were seeing a very dark place in Xander. I really need next Tuesday to arrive quickly, so that I may know how this develops.

>> "She stopped only thinking about herself for the first time in a long time, ..."

I see Dawn's issues a little differently and I've never found her annoying. She has not been so much self-centered as in emotional pain and loneliness. She too is on the road to recovery. This began with "Older and Far Away". I would like to see her patrol at Buffy's side, and before the season is out, I think we will.

>> "Willow using the computer again."

Yes, this was very nice. Also, Buffy's building annoyance with the troika has been satisfying. I will be pleased to see how Buffy deals when she finally catches up with them. Jonathon appears to be in mortal danger from Warren. I'm guessing that Jonathon will betray the others to Buffy very soon now.

>> "How perfect was it that, during Willow and Tara's reunion scene, ..."

This may also have been the most daring scene in the whole show. We've seen Willow and Tara kiss before, but those times the kisses were understated. This time, the kiss was passionate and out in front.
[> [> Re: Quick thoughts on "Entropy" (Spoilers) -- yuri, 00:09:55 05/01/02 Wed

As we have seen over the years, Buffy is more than merely Xander's best friend.

Yeah, she's his "hero." The Freshman was on today at 7:00. I'm loving how those FX episodes can coincide so perfectly sometimes... I rarely watch them because of time stuff, but I like to before a new Buffy. I make more connections and the background of the show is much more immediate, like you remember how much there is and how deep all the characters go. It may just be me, but sometimes I forget that season 1 and 2 ever happened, and when I do keep the history in mind the show resonates that much more.
[> Speaking of visual Symbolism... -- neaux, 04:48:34 05/01/02 Wed

was the NERD's Stakes attached to the ATVs supposed to be as Phallic as they looked??
[> [> Re: Speaking of visual Symbolism... -- ponygirl, 14:36:26 05/01/02 Wed

Good one neaux! And Xander dropped his stake after hearing the news about Buffy and Spike - a bit of emasculation? With that and Willow's "if I wasn't a lesbian before" comment on the DMP monster it was certainly a bad day for phallic symbols.
[> [> Re: Speaking of visual Symbolism... -- Dyna, 12:16:19 05/02/02 Thu

Not to mention that huge red candle that Jonathan lit in the map-burning scene. When the camera panned back and we saw how tall it was, my friend and I just started laughing.
[> [> [> Re: Speaking of visual Symbolism... -- Celia Murphy, 12:59:31 05/02/02 Thu

Apart from the phallic symbols, A classic ME example of visual symbolism was when Tara walked into Willow's room, the dress that was hanging on the door was worn in OMWF in which Tara found out that Willow manipulated her mind.
[> Re: Quick thoughts on "Entropy" (Spoilers) -- Rattletrap, 06:46:48 05/01/02 Wed

Wonderful thoughts, as ever Rob. I would put last night's episode 2nd only to OMWF on this season; and I'm now every bit as hungry for the next four as I was this time last year.

Random thoughts, in no particular order:

* The Xander situation: It is interesting reading the diversity of opinion on this board about Xander's actions. I tend to be relatively sympathetic, especially inasmuch as he was not thinking at all clearly when he went to attack Spike, blinded by rage would not be too strong a term, I think. He was making some good faith effort to heal the rift between he and Anya.

* I find it interesting that no one knows that Anya is a demon again. While we pushed some secrets out in the open, we have started hiding some new ones that I'm sure will hit the fan in a couple of weeks.

* This episode was one of new beginnings. Most of the secrets are out in the open. Greenburg (or perhaps the director) did a really nice job foreshadowing this by basically borrowing the opening shot from "Bargaining" with chasing vampires through the cemetary. It was also nice to see Buffy patrolling again, we haven't actually had much vampire stake-age this season.

* Dawn responded fairly evenly to Buffy's confession about her tryst with Spike. Xander, as expected, took it extremely hard. How will Willow react? I simply can't figure out on this one, but I think a bit closer to Dawn's reaction.

* Loved the Buffy/Dawn interaction--very cute, very sisterly. I really want to see Dawn patrolling with Buffy, but I suspect ME will make us wait 'til next season for that.

* I love the title: "Entropy." It seems to be a reference to the Second (?) Law of Thermodynamics that says, in brief: all systems tend toward chaos. How appropriate.

* Brilliant performances by every cast member, but special kudos to Caufield and Marsters for the seduction scene in the Magic Box.

* To echo Rob: "Willow and Tara...Willow and Tara...and, oh yeah, Willow and Tara!!!" The coffee shop scene was absolutely priceless, and the reconciliation at the end was touching (and also somewhat reminiscent of Xander and Anya in "Into the Woods")

* I said in chat last night, but I'll reiterate here: All of the women looked absolutely stunning in this episode; and the wardrobe people seem to have finally discovered that there can be beauty in simplicity.

Ok, done rambling now.

'trap
[> [> I agree about how great the women looked... -- Rob, 13:26:15 05/01/02 Wed

EC, in particular, I think, was absolutely stunning last night. Her hair, in particular, was absolutely perfect.

Rob
[> [> [> Ahhh....excuse me but Buffy seriously needed to rethink.. -- Caroline, 14:29:20 05/01/02 Wed

those jeans and the fake rose in her ponytail. Otherwise, I agree that the women looked great.
[> [> [> [> Re: Ahhh....excuse me but Buffy seriously needed to rethink.. -- Rattletrap, 14:53:05 05/01/02 Wed

Gotta disagree here. I thought SMG looked especially amazing. True, the jeans were a little annoying, but the ponytail combined with the casual clothes and the leather jacket looked absolutely incredible in a very natural, ordinary way.
[> Entirely agree with you Rob on everything ;-) -- shadowkat, 08:00:00 05/01/02 Wed

[> Rob, are you my twin? -- Deeva, 09:15:15 05/01/02 Wed

Sometimes, I think that we must be sharing a brain. I genuinely like this season, too. I can't bare to single out any particular episode as a stinker because I don't think there is one. Each one has an amazing scene that I love. I like how you try to put a positive angle on things, even with the trolls. There are enough pessimists in the world, we need more half-fullers! And plus you like Six Feet Under!
[> [> Yes, I believe I might be. :o) -- Rob, 13:28:13 05/01/02 Wed

[> Re: Quick thoughts on "Entropy" (Spoilers) -- ravenhair, 15:46:46 05/02/02 Thu

Wonderful, Rob! Agree on all points.

Just a few thoughts:

When Spike visits the Magic Box, he doesn't connect Halfrek to Cecily. Was the "William" line in OaFA just an in-joke after all? Or was Spike too preoccupied at the time to take notice? Confused now...

Spike's request for "something numbing" reminded me of his line in OMWF: "The torch I bear is scorching me." His love for Buffy and her constant rejection have become too much to bear. It's troubling that someone who is usually suspicious of magic resorts to such means as a solution.

Kudos to Emma Caulfield in this episode - brilliant performance. Anya's fear that Xander never really loved her was heartbreaking. JM was wonderful as well, playing the sympathetic friend. After all Spike has done to help the Scoobies, I was glad to hear someone finally say "thank you."

Another solid episode in an amazing season of Buffy!
[> [> Thanks...and I agree with you on everything! -- Rob, 18:58:19 05/02/02 Thu

I also wondered about the Halfrek/Spike thing...Right now, I'm thinking either "in-joke" or she knows him, but she's not Cecily. I would have expected some bigger reaction from either of them if she was. Unless they are both so far past the point of caring about their human selves, being demons for so long. Hmmm...

Rob
[> [> Re: Quick thoughts on "Entropy" (Spoilers) -- Rattletrap, 06:35:36 05/03/02 Fri

When Spike visits the Magic Box, he doesn't connect Halfrek to Cecily. Was the "William" line in OaFA just an in-joke after all? Or was Spike too preoccupied at the time to take notice? Confused now...

On my rewatching of the episode, I don't think this is quite as big a problem as most of us thought initially. Halfreck/Cecily stands up and walks away with her back turned as soon as Spike enters. While he acknowledges that there is another woman there, I'm not sure Spike would have ever really had a good look at her, and his mind was pretty clearly preoccupied with other things, so he wouldn't have instantly made the connection as he might have in another context. In addition, remember that Spike has only seen her once in recent years; briefly, several weeks ago, at a failed vengance gig (perhaps again at the wedding, not sure here). He does not know that Anya has reverted to her demon ways, so he has no reason to assume that she would be running around with vengance demons.

Just my $.02

'trap
[> Btw, thanks to everybody for saying nice things about my original post... -- Rob, 21:25:25 05/02/02 Thu

I wanted to respond to each of you individually, but there's only so much time in a week...and by the time I got done, it'd be time to watch "Seeing Red"! ;o)

Rob
Xander and Spike, Entropy *SPOILERS* -- Corwin of Amber, 21:42:29 04/30/02 Tue

Glancing through the posts...I can tell that female posters are generally lining up behind Anya and angry about "self righteous" Xander, whereas male posters (or posters assumed to be male because of their nick) are much more supportive of Xander.

Keep in mind that this all comes from my own biases.

I'm male...and it's almost as if I saw a different episode. Anya, with her meager social skills, trying to get Xander's friends to wish him ill was both amusing and disturbing at the same time. To my mind, it revealed the real Anya...she's been a veangeance demon all along, she's just been on sabattical, so to speak. I've previously been a fan of Xander/Anya as a couple...but not anymore. I empathize with Anya's pain, but scorn her attempts to spread the misery.

Where does the "self righteous" charge against Xander come from? How many times does he have to admit to a mistake?
And what was his crime anyway? He failed to go through with a marriage he wasn't ready for. The way he did it was terrible, but would it be better if he had gone through with the wedding, just to spare Anya embarrassment?

Xander and Spike...I'm not a Spike fan. He's a monster. I was cheering Xander on when he grabbed that axe and went after Spike, because clearly Buffy can't do it, but again I was disapointed with no Spike dustage. How much future misery would be prevented by dusting Spike now? The amount of sympathy given on this board for Spike is amazing, while Xander is condemned for far lesser things. If the spoilers I've seen for 'Seeing Red' are true, this board is going to filled with excuses for Spike again next week, and probably more condemnation of Xander.

Ok. Rant mode off. I suppose I have a question for the board. Where does all the sympathy for Spike come from? Is he just being held to a lower standard?


And...on a lighter note, is boffing Spike necrophilia?
[> Re: Xander and Spike, Entropy *SPOILERS* -- Rob, 21:55:35 04/30/02 Tue

I don't agree with your reading of Anya in this episode. Her attempts to get the others to wish ill on Xander was not showing that Anya really is evil...It's showing that she is hurt and is so trying to return to her old ways, but, just as Spike can't seem to do it, neither can she. She is not half as convincing as a veangance demon should be, and, to start off with, had even forgotten that she couldn't do it herself. When she finally gets the chance to hurt Xander, she decides not to.

I don't think Xander's self-reighteous, either. It all goes back to his hatred of demons since confronting VampJesse in "The Harvest."

But dusting Spike? There would be no honor in that. Spike is helpless. It would be like stabbing an unarmed man. And Spike was trying to console Anya...Yes, he shouldn't have slept with her, but this wasn't some situation where he seduced her...They were both in pain, both on even footing, and both decided to have sex.

You said that Anya is the reason you don't want Xander and her together anymore. For me, it's the opposite. Xander is the reason...He messed up, and if he can't figure out a better way to apologize, and get over his demon prejudices, he doesn't deserve her.

Rob
[> [> Re: Xander and Spike, Entropy *SPOILERS* -- Z, 22:11:40 04/30/02 Tue

"I wish--"
"Don't."

I think that Anya simply hadn't thought it all through. But yes, she didn't show good judgement there when she went around pursuing vengeance.

It's a good point that Xander is being judged harshly while Spike, in general, is not. However I still had no sympathy for Xander in this episode. Not because I blame him for leaving her, for making that mistake. I don't blame him for that. But I blame him for his thinking that everything can just go back to the way it was before. That he can reject her but still keep her. Actually I don't blame him for thinking that, I blame him for storming over and bashing into a private situation as if it was his territory. As if she were still his, as if he had any right. And as if their comfort/mistake was all about him. "I hurt you, and you hurt me back. How mature." What the hell? She had no idea he could see her. (Yes, OK, she had been trying to hurt him back, so he's right about her maturity.)

Yet it's a good point that Xander is being held up to a higher standard than Spike. Maybe it's the screams of dying character continuity.
[> [> [> Re: Xander and Spike, Entropy *SPOILERS* -- LittleBit, 00:04:16 05/01/02 Wed

They should all be held to the same standard.

I admit to being angry with Xander over the ending to Hell's Bells. But not because he didn't go thtough with the wedding. If he had that many doubts, it would be terribly wrong to marry at that time. But he shouldn't have walked away and left Anya to face everyone alone. He should have had the decency, yes, decency, to do it himself.

He should also realize that just because he wants the relationship to go back the way it was, his actions have caused Anya to seriously reconsider if the relationship is what she believed it to be. She had hidden doubts too, but was willing to take the risk to be with him. He forfeited this relationship when he left her standing there alone. He wants to atone, but there's little he can do now.

Anya was devastated by what she saw as his betrayal. She went where she knew she would be accepted. She became a vengeance demon again. She tried to wish him away when she first saw him, and he tried to explain that he still loved her and missed her. She's not ready to hear it.

She keeps trying to find a way to punish Xander, but no one will coperate. Until Halfrek points out the wisher doesn't have to be female, and Spike steps right into it. She resorts to trickery to get Spike to make the wish, and the trickery backfires. They find themselves with more in common and more empathy than either has felt in a long while, and make the choice, under the influence, to offer comfort to each other.

Spike is still hoping that if his relationship Buffy is made common knowledge she'll rethink the need to break it off. He's hurt and he's angry that she refuses to see him as he sees himself. Anya understands and there they are.

Buffy has used Spike badly, from her point of view. Spike didn't see it the same way, but he was never in a relationship as William or Spike where he was treated any differently. He doesn't want the physical relationship with Buffy to end, because she won't allow any other kind. Even when she used him as her confidante, it was because she didn't see him as real. She has released him to go where he will, and he wishes to stay.

Spike and Anya were never intending to tell anyone about their tryst. That it happened that the two people they would least want to know ended up watching was absurdly against all odds. However, both Spike and Anya were free to do as they pleased, both had been released from any other commitments.

Xander reacted as Xander always does...he led with his emotions. He immediately raced to confront them both as the betrayed lover. He wasn't, by his own actions.

Anya and Spike both seem to regret what they did, realizing that it really wasn't what either one of them wanted. When Xander arrives and they learn that they were observed, both realize that their hopes for any reconciliation are dashed completely. Again by their own actions.

Buffy is the least affected of the four. She at least, recognizes that she had set Spike free of herself, and really didn't have a say in who he was with. She was clearly disappointed that he was with Anya, for many reasons, the Xander/Anya relationship looming large in them, but also for herself.

Xander rails at Anya, and attacks Spike. Words are exchanged on all sides. Words that will not easily be retracted. Xander learns that Buffy and Spike have been sleeping together, and he is unable to handle that concept. He leaves.

All of them have responsibilty for the events that led to this point. All of them behaved badly. Were they evil? No. Was the action that caused the greatest hurt to each of them an act of vengeance? No. Will they be able to forgive themselves and each other? This remains to be seen.

The only reason I tend to be harder on Xander is because he seems the least willing, or able, of these four, to see the consequences of his own actions. Spike knows he's lost any chance with Buffy because of his actions. Anya knows that she hurt Xander badly. Buffy knows that she pushed Spike out of her life. Xander has been wronged, betrayed by Anya and Buffy, he's been hurt, and it's all Spike's fault. No.
[> [> [> [> Re: Xander and Spike, Entropy *SPOILERS* -- Belladonna, 08:31:53 05/01/02 Wed

"The only reason I tend to be harder on Xander is because he seems the least willing, or able, of these four, to see the consequences of his own actions."

I love this board!! You guys can put into words everything that I think, but can't say. I completely agree with the above statement. Man, I can't wait till next Tuesday!! :)
[> [> [> [> Re: Xander and Spike, Entropy *SPOILERS* -- Goji3, 14:06:04 05/01/02 Wed

"The only reason I tend to be harder on Xander is because he seems the least willing, or able, of these four, to see the consequences of his own actions. Spike knows he's lost any chance with Buffy because of his actions. Anya knows that she hurt Xander badly. Buffy knows that she pushed Spike out of her life. Xander has been wronged, betrayed by Anya and Buffy, he's been hurt, and it's all Spike's fault. No."

He does play a key role in the entire mess, now doesn't he. Buffy is more on the fringe of this debackle, with Xander and Anya getting the blunt of it.

Spike's Casual acceptance is hardly praiseworthy here.

In an interesting Twist, Xander is now no longer capable of moving on, and Anya 'Was' at the end. At the begining, Xander was the one wanting to move on and try again. I guess that like Anya, most people missed what Xander was trying to do. He loved Anya (notice past tense), he felt that they were both not ready for such a commitment as Marrige (doesn't this weeks events kinda add fuel to that argument?). she only saw betrayal. Thus, a simple misunderstanding of motivation leads to hell in a handbasket.

Well, Guess i'm the only one defending Xander -- who is heald to a MUCH higher moral standard than a certain Vampire we all know.
[> Xander's crime? -- lulabel, 23:25:18 04/30/02 Tue

Where does the "self righteous" charge against Xander come from? How many times does he have to admit to a mistake? And what was his crime anyway? He failed to go through with a marriage he wasn't ready for. The way he did it was terrible, but would it be better if he had gone through with the wedding, just to spare Anya embarrassment?

Well, I think Xander did a little more than just cause Anya embarrassment. The real "crime" was that he called off the wedding at all, at any time. It was his idea in the first place, he was the one who set up the expectation that it would happen. Anya was not embarrassed, she was devastated.

I certainly can't fault Xander for his actions, however. He is clearly in a lot of pain. His reaction to the Spike/Anya incident was understandable in that no one could be expected to act rationally in a situation like that. I would say that he was totally entitled to throw a huge hissy fit by virtue of how much he cares, not by whether or not he was "in the right"

And yes, Spike is held to a lower standard than Xander. Shouldn't he be? As you say, Spike is a monster, so shouldn't we be impressed when he manages to rise above his base nature?
[> Re: Spike (SPOILERS for Entropy) -- Robert, 23:44:33 04/30/02 Tue

>> "And...on a lighter note, is boffing Spike necrophilia?"

Only if you enjoy it.
[> Anya's revenge metaphorical; Xander loves Buffy -- Rochefort, 23:46:50 04/30/02 Tue

Anya's revenge, if seen metaphorically, wasn't demon like at all. Of course she wanted his intestines torn out, and of course she was looking SOMEwhere ANYwhere for someone to call the man that broke her heart a big fat jerk. It's a response everyone goes through and it HELPS when friends do it. But Anya doesn't have any friends, which just made it all the more believable that she'd need Spike's sympathy so much. Before he got seductive and whispery he was actually listening to her and empathising.

Also, Xander is all pissed, not about Anya wanting revenge BUT ABOUT HER SLEEPING WITH SPIKE! And I'm sorry, but Xander said he didn't want her, so Anya can sleep with whoever the heck she feels like sleeping with and Xander has no right to be so self rightous and demeaning. He's ALWAYS been demeaning to Anya.

Now I do understand why he's hurt about Buffy and Spike. Jeez, he doesn't WANT Anya HE WANTS BUFFY... and he's done nothing but be a great guy to her, totally supportive, always there, and done everything he could for her forever and ever. And she's done nothing but look right through him AND THEN SLEEPS WITH SPIKE! So he's hurt. I feel bad for him in terms of that. But he should really leave Anya alone now as Buffy said. He's ripped out her heart. He thought he wanted to be with her, he didn't. Poor girl. It happens. If sleeping with Spike helps Anya's broken heart, who gets hurt?

Oh, and I'm a guy.
[> [> Re: Anya's revenge metaphorical; Xander loves Buffy -- Robert, 00:15:12 05/01/02 Wed

Thank you for your posting. I was looking for the words to rebut Mr. Corwin of Amber (if this is his real name). You found them for me. But ...

>> "And I'm sorry, but Xander said he didn't want her, so Anya can sleep with whoever the heck she feels like sleeping with and Xander has no right to be so self rightous and demeaning."

Xander did not say that he didn't want her. Xander said that he could not marry Anya, but that he still loved her. With the love, he feels the betrayal. This does not justify or excuse his actions. His hurt and pain may be great, but so was Anya's as she stood alone at the altar. He hasn't allowed her the time to work through her pain.

>> " Jeez, he doesn't WANT Anya HE WANTS BUFFY... "

No, I don't think this is correct. In season 1, he wanted a romantic relationship with Buffy, but she promptly shut that down. I do agree that Buffy is more than just his best friend. By this point however, I think the relationship is more like that a sister he idolizes and needs to protect. He almost worshipped Buffy as a hero and he was devastated by the knowledge of her relationship with Spike. Xander had more than just hatred and loathing for Spike -- he also held Spike in total contempt. Xander may have hated Angel, but he still respected Angel. Xander had absolutely no respect for Spike. In Xander's eyes, Buffy did far worse than just have sex with a souless vampire, she debased herself.
[> [> [> Echoes of Season Two (spoilers for Entropy) -- Vickie, 12:29:44 05/01/02 Wed

Watching Entropy for the second time, during that not quite final scene (Spike's revelation, Xander not wanting to know this), I distinctly heard Willow's voic:

"It just means you'd rather be with someone you hate, instead of me."

Boy, did the Xand man ever get his!
[> [> [> [> NICE. Wouldn't have thought of that. -- Z, 15:03:11 05/01/02 Wed

[> [> sort of metaphorical reality testing -- yuri, 00:25:16 05/01/02 Wed

Of course she wanted his intestines torn out, and of course she was looking SOMEwhere ANYwhere for someone to call the man that broke her heart a big fat jerk. It's a response everyone goes through and it HELPS when friends do it.

I'm glad you pointed that out because I LOVED it. One of my favorite metaphors to date. Seen it happen a million times, and I also really enjoyed the little montage of Anya trying to get people to agree with her.

However, I must concur with Robert about the Bander situation.
[> [> You are right. For X, it has always been Buffy (even in the wedding dream) -- Spike Lover, 15:57:56 05/02/02 Thu

[> Top 5 Nightmares of Women everywhere... -- Erica24, 04:32:18 05/01/02 Wed

1) Your child dying.
2) Being violated.
3) Being left at the Alter.*****
4) Being murdered.
5) I dunno...being on national TV without makeup. (I couldn't think of 5)

All joking aside, my point is this -- to many women, Xander did an UNFORGIVEABLE thing. It's just that simple. Everything else pales in comparison.

I feel bad for Xander, because he seemed to think that he & Anya were still together when Spike & Anya hooked up. According to Anya, they weren't. I feel bad for his broken heart, but Anya has my sympathy mostly.


JMO (Just My Observation),

Erica
[> [> Re: Top 5 Nightmares of Women everywhere... -- shadowkat, 09:10:52 05/01/02 Wed

Agreed. If you don't understand how devastating that
wedding scene was for Anya - rewatch Xander's proposal in the Gift. Then rewatch Bargaining where Anya is nervous that Xander still hasn't announced their engagement. Then rewatch AYW where Xander promises that once they make it
through the wedding, the marriage will be forever.

Anya gave Xander a way out in The Gift. When he proposed,
she hit him and said he was only doing it to be romantic and the world was ending. He denied this. Then HB's happened and it turns out Xander is a liar, at least in Anya's mind.

Spike was the only one who gave Anya any sympathy or compassion. While I feel for Xander, for his weakeness, his loss of heart, I feel more for Anya who never saw it coming.

Thanks Erica
[> [> [> Yeah, I don't think she wanted to hear how badly XANDER felt all episode. -- Erica24, 12:28:45 05/01/02 Wed

I'm not excusing her attempts to get vengeance. However, if I were left at the alter and the only thing people could say to me was HE feels so bad and HE is just devastated and HE really didn't mean it... At best it was bad timing on the SG's part. At worst, it showed Anya just what her value was to them. I know it was played for laughs, but when someone hurts you THAT badly, I think it's just common courtesy for your friends to NOT try and make you "understand" and "empathize" and "get over it" in a matter of weeks. Geez. Give Anya some time.

Erica
[> [> [> [> Part of the problem was the unspoken rule of their conversations... -- cjl, 13:27:02 05/01/02 Wed

Whenever Buffy, Dawn, or Willow/Tara tried to steer the subject away from vengeance or disemboweling men, Anya kept steering the conversation right back down vengeance alley. After awhile, especially with Dawn, it become difficult for the female members of the SG to talk with Anya, because they were afriad their sympathies with her situation might lead to yucky, exploding genitalia death for their buddy Xander. (After all, you never know when a vengeance demon might be listening in.)

I think Buffy and the rest of the girls were VERY sympathetic. They felt terrible for Anya and they weren't too happy with Xander for metaphorically ripping her guts out. But Anya was so single- mindedly pursuing her old trade that she didn't hear what they were saying. Maybe if just one of our intelligent heroines realized what Anya was up to, they could have told her to put the retribution aside for a minute and just talk. Maybe what happened at the end wouldn't have happened.

I'm not blaming Anya here. But the situation between her and the girls is not as simple as this thread makes it out to be.
[> [> [> [> [> Agreed... it wasn't -- shadowkat, 18:28:02 05/01/02 Wed

I don't think we meant it to come across that way...at
least i didn't. My impression was that everyone was struggling with their own issues. It actually was the most realistic episode I've seen on the topic anywhere on TV.

All the women felt awkward around Anya, which would make
sense, after all they've known and been friends with
Xander longer. Also the whole vengeance demon bit.
Dawn even states to Anya - she's hesitant to ever use the word "I wish" again. Even Spike avoides using it until literally the end of the episode.

The reason Anya relates best to Spike is they have a common demonator. They both have been dumped. They are both demons.
They are both more than a hundred years old. They both have a tendency to speak without thinking. They both aren't real comfortable with humans. They had a very similar scene in
Where the Wild Things Are two years ago. And on the same topic. Except that time they discussed hurting their significant others, this round they merely discussed their pain, bonded, and attempted through sex to forget the pain for a little while, to as Spike so succintly put it "move on".

There really are no bad guys here. Xander comes off badly..but then Xander has always been his own worst enemy.
Anya states that very well at the end. But I would like to point out - all the characters are their own worst enemies this season.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agreed... it wasn't -- Just George, 23:45:45 05/01/02 Wed

I agree that the female SG were sympathetic. However, I just wish one of them would have said, "Anya, what can I do to help you?" Buffy came the closest, but never quite said it. It's too bad she didn't. It would have shown that the female SG were Anya's friends as well.
[> [> [> [> [> Affection for Anya from Willow and Buffy... -- Ixchel, 19:51:25 05/02/02 Thu

I thought they were trying to be sympathetic and maybe defuse Anya's anger, but didn't really know what to say. I think if everyone's situations weren't so chaotic, they may have been more perceptive. They could have understood that Anya didn't need to hear how hurt Xander was (even though she kept bringing him up in her vengeance quest). Maybe if they could have said that they loved her, cared about her, that she had a place with them aside from Xander?

IMHO, they do care about her. I was so pleased that Willow jumped up and hugged Anya. That Tara held her hand was sweet also, but I expected something like that from Tara. Also, I had the impression when Buffy got up that she was about to hug Anya. I'm not sure about this though. I believe Anya couldn't see their concern and didn't realize their sincerity, because of her pain.

Ixchel
[> [> [> Ditto -- Sophist, 12:56:48 05/01/02 Wed

Speaking from the Y side (last time I checked, I had the creds), I can't imagine how anyone could try to justify Xander's conduct. Towards Anya or towards Spike.
[> [> [> Re: Top 5 Nightmares of Women everywhere... -- Rattletrap, 21:21:49 05/01/02 Wed

After some thought, I think I've determined where my problem with this line of discussion lies:

Xander did Anya wrong. He openly admits that to anyone who will listen, and no one can disagree. He is a bit foolish and naive to believe things can ever revert to the way they were, but that is hardly surprising considering he really has no past experience to draw on in this situation. To his credit, he doesn't try to lie his way out of it or tell her what she wants to hear, he attempts to answer her question honestly, albeit bluntly. Does he fully comprehend the pain he inflicted on her, no, and this is perhaps his most crucial mistake.

All that said, the punishment Anya tries to inflict simply does not fit the crime. Being left at the altar caused public embarrasment and will probably result in some lifelong emotional scars--these are not trivial things and should not be taken lightly. These things also do not merit mass murder, which is essentially the punishment Anya tries to inflict. Her initial wish is that Xander had never been born, and the fact that she takes on her vengance demon visage suggests that she had every intention of following through with it. If Xander's existence had been completely erased, it is unlikely Buffy would have survived her fight with the Master in PG, leading to a rash of other related deaths (see "The Wish"). Even excluding this slightly twisted logic, I find it difficult to believe that leaving someone at the altar merits the complete deletion of the perpetrator's existence as a punishment. The humorous framing of Anya's conversations with Willow, Tara, Dawn, and Buffy distracts from the absolutely horrific maiming or killing that would have taken place had any of those wishes come to pass.

I am entirely willing to believe that Anya was still deeply hurt and taking action without stopping to evaluate the possible consequences. The same could be said for Xander's treatment of Spike, however. The expression on NB's face as Xander walked to the Magic Box was one of someone motivated only by murderous rage. Both characters behaved in ways understandable given the situation, but neither was morally right.
[> [> [> a quibble -- Can I be Anne?, 09:45:13 05/02/02 Thu

"Spike was the only one who gave Anya any sympathy or compassion. "

I disagree with this statement. It seemed like everyone Anya approached empathized with her pain and agreed wholeheartedly that she'd been wronged, that Xander did her wrong. What they weren't willing to do was wish unspeakable harm on Xander, which I think stemmed from their own hard won maturity.

I do agree with the rest of your insight. Your posts are always interesting and I always find the time to read them.
[> Not all women... -- Diana Michelle Murray, 05:13:51 05/01/02 Wed

But then again, I've always identified the most with Xander. He was the 'normal' one. The one who felt inadequate and useless. Who hid behind humor to cover up how scared and insecure that he was.

Watching that first scene between Xander/Anya, he takes all the responsibility for screwing up. He doesn't try to say that it's not his fault.

But yeah, I pretty much agree with everything that you said. I don't get the Spike sympathy. He's an evil, soulless creature.

And I sound just like Xander. Heh.

Spike admits in his conversation with Anya that he'd kill the rest of the Scoobies if he got his chip out. He said it and I haven't seen anyone point that out.

He isn't good.
[> Sympathy for Spike? -- Morgane, 06:02:21 05/01/02 Wed

*Where does all the sympathy for Spike come from? *

I don't think it should be call sympathy. Most of the people I know doesn't have "sympathy" for Spike, they're just more interrested in what is going to happen to him (from where the non-dusting idea come from) because he is one of the most interesting character, mainly because of his greyness. He is nor black nor white, which are the most boring character ever because they are so predictible. I like Xander, well I like him to be on the show, but sincerely, I don't really care what is going to happen to him. Spike is immortal, he had lived for 100 years now, but still, he's the most alive of them, the most passionate. It's fascinating to see someone who, after all this time, still feel passion. You said that he's a monster so he should dusted. Well I have to disagree with you, he may be a monster and it's exactly the reason why he shouldn't be dusted. Plus, he is the only one who have a chance to reach deep, hidden parts of Buffy, that have to be exposed to understand her better.
[> Re: Xander and Spike, Entropy/ AYW *SPOILERS* -- ArmyGreenCargoPants, 14:15:34 05/01/02 Wed

I understand that not every viewer is a huge Spike fan, but I don't understand where viewers (and the writers) get off calling him evil. Okay, yes, he's a vampire--a soulless demon. BUT, if people were judged by their CAPACITY for evil rather than by their actions* . . . As we have seen--just from this season--the "good guys" are capable of all sorts of things. Buffy is capable of planning to kill her friends and family; Anya is capable of planning to torture (liquify his entrails!) Xander; and Willow is capable of--well, I'm sure we'll see quite soon what Willow is capable of.

As for Spike, he is capable of saving Buffy's life, saving Dawn's life, saving [insert any Scooby]'s life, caring for Dawn, sympathizing with Anya, etc.

[Warning: tangent ahead] Why are Angel, Oz, and Anya (vampire, werewolf, and vengeance demon) all considered good no matter what they do? Angel and Anya were evil for centuries; werewolf Oz probably snacked on a few humans. They are the "good guys" and Spike is a "bad guy" because why???

Spike's actions (with the exception of the Buffy manipulations and the demon eggs--dumb plot device to get him back in the "evil" category or red herring?) have been "good" for what, like two years? When will Spike get his "tiniest sliver of slack"?

*The writers all seem to be Shakespeare fans. One of the themes of Julius Caesar is that the end doesn't justify the means. Brutus is convinced to murder Caesar because he sees (is made to see) Caesar's capacity for evil (the ruination of Rome). Has Caesar committed any heinous acts (by Roman standards) or has Rome fallen into a decline? No, but Caesar is judged by what his future might hold. Let's get into the present with Spike. He might revert into his old, evil self. But the Spike of today is really not a bad guy. So put those spikes and axes away!
[> [> Xander, Anya, and relative contempt -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 14:26:09 05/01/02 Wed

IIRC Xander left Anya at the altar because he thought a.) he would eventually be like his father -- vicious, cutting, manipulative, and cruel -- and b.) that this would hurt Anya more later than if he jilted her now.

Doesn't that show a lot of secret contempt for Anya?

Implied message -- I don't believe that she's strong enough to work with me, to handle times when I may be like dear ol' Dad, to make her own decisions about surviving or ending a bad marriage?

Maybe this has been covered before -- but, in a way, it shows that Xander, even at his best, tends to think of Anya as a child or a toy.

Bad call.
[> [> I'm with you, Pants, and furthermore... -- Can I be Anne?, 10:20:50 05/02/02 Thu

...he hears on a regular basis that he's a thing, that his evil is immutable and he can never change. No matter what he says or does, he will always be unworthy, they tell him.
Spike's good actions should seem even more exceptional considering everyone's expectation of evil from him.
The total disdain, lack of love or trust, even uncensored hatred with which the gang treats Spike is not honorable or heroic or good. They have all used Spike for sex, emotional validation, information, or his strength and knowledge in the temporary alliances that benefited mostly the gang.
We'll see next tuesday what choice he makes. I, for one, am intrigued to find out.
I'm not calling for a black and white buffyverse, just some decent behavior on the part of our heroes.
[> [> it's Called REGRET! -- Goji3, 13:17:10 05/02/02 Thu

Spike really does not express any regret over the things he's done. He does every now and then, but usually due to some negative effect on his person/someone he cares about (and even then, he sometimes does not).

Heck, Anya was pretty much to ignorant to realize what she was doing - she got a glimps of it in Hell's Bells, but she still really hasn't learned.

Also, note how most of Spike's Good deeds often have a hint of 'evil' in them: be it a need for violence in patroling, or the 'looking down on the morons' attitude when he told the gang about how Willow was REALLY reacting to Tara's "Brain-sucked" state back in Season 5. - JM does a fantastic job of combining the good with evil, i must admit.

Angel feels lots of regret, to the point where he broods. Oz does not express his regret as openly as the "King of Brooding" does, but it is there.

and THAT is why i cut Spike less slack.

That, and he does not really have any dead-set morals that are not self serving.

And:: Now venting:: people who draw pleasure from the suffering (especially emotional) of others disgust me to a high degree. people who draw pleasure from another's pain, especially when they have done nothing to warrent any kind of 'attack', are to me the lowest form of human existence.


...

God, this post was distjointed and sporatic. Sorry. A million ideas at once-and all.

Current board | May 2002