May 2002
posts
The
Mistakes we all Make.......vengeance in Entropy --
Rufus, 02:28:34 05/01/02 Wed
Anya learned a lesson tonight, one that she could only have
learned by again becoming a demon. As a demon she had the
potential power to punish Xander for running out on her. She
never showed him her demon face, just railed at him like a
wronged girlfiend. She tried to curse Xander herself, then
when that didn't work she went through his friends. Willow,
Buffy, and Dawn, had all learned a bit about wishing without
thinking of the consequences, but Anya still wanted the
supposed comfort, satifaction of the payback. She found that
potential in another demon, Spike. They compared notes on
how they had been treated, Anya never knowing that Spike had
ever been involved with Buffy.
BUT HE MADE A FOOL OF ME,AND NOBODY SEEMS TO CARE ENOUGH
TO DO ANYTHING.
Spike: I CARE. WHAT HE DONE TO YOU, I'LL NEVER STOOP THAT
LOW, AND I'M AN EVIL,SOULLESS THING,ACCORDING TO SOME
PEOPLE.
Both Spike and Anya were devalued by their human mates
because they were demons or ex-demons. Their words never
meaning as much as a persons. But evil doesn't need a
soulless form to take up shop (more on that after Seeing
Red), both of them have feelings and they attempted to
comfort each other in a typical way that any human would
after being jilted.
Anya: XANDER DIDN'T THINK SO.HE THOUGHT I WAS RUDE.
Spike: IT'S NO WONDER THEY COULDN'T DEAL WITH THE LIKES
OF YOU AND ME, LOVE. WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEAD HUNDREDS OF
YEARS AGO. AND WE'RE THE ONLY ONES WHO ARE REALLY
ALIVE.
Spike actually has a point, they both should have been dead
hundreds of years ago, but living they are, and they haven't
gotten smarter than either Xander and Buffy who have only
had a couple of decades of experience. And when Anya talked
herself out, her fears finally surfaced, very human
fears...
Anya: THANK YOU.THIS IS...THE FIRST TIME SINCE...IT FEELS
GOOD TO BE WITH SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS.
Spike: INTIMATELY.
Anya: THIS WHOLE TIME,I'VE BEEN COMING ON ALL...HELL-BENT
AND MAD...WANTING HIS HEAD, YOU KNOW?
Spike: Yeah
Anya:WHEN REALLY, I...CAN'T SLEEP AT NIGHT...THINKING
IT...
HAS TO BE MY FAULT SOMEHOW I...
Spike: Shhhhh
Anya: WHAT IF IT'S JUST PRETENDING?WHAT IF HE NEVER WANTED
ME THE WAY I WANTED HIM?
I think if they had stopped at that they would have been
better off but they had sex, and Xander saw it, that hurt
more than any curse that Anya could put on him. Anya was
very upfront about what sex with Spike was about....
Anya: YOU KNOW I'M ONLY DOING THIS BECAUSE I'M--I'M
LONELY AND DRUNK AND YOU SMELL REALLY GOOD.
Their coupling meant nothing to them, they didn't love each
other, and trying to erase the memory of who they really
loved by having revenge sex, moving on sex, was empty. The
words Xander had for Anya were painful to hear. They were an
attempt to make her feel as bad as he did.
Anya: NO. THE MATURE SOLUTION IS FOR YOU TO SPEND YOUR
WHOLE LIFE TELLING STUPID, POINTLESS JOKES SO THAT NO ONE
WILL NOTICE THAT YOU ARE JUST A SCARED, INSECURE LITTLE
BOY.
Xander: I'M NOT JOKING NOW.YOU LET THAT EVIL,SOULLESS THING
TOUCH YOU. YOU WANTED ME TO FEEL SOMETHING?
CONGRATULATIONS.
IT WORKED. I LOOK AT YOU...AND I FEEL SICK...'CAUSE YOU HAD
SEX WITH THAT.
Spike: IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR BUFFY.
Xander: SHUT UP AND LEAVE HER OUT OF--BUFFY?I--I DON'T
WANT
TO KNOW THIS. I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ANY OF THIS.
Xander not only got hurt by his girlfriend, but Buffy, who
couldn't bring herself to tell what she thought was a dirty
secret, afraid of rejection. Xander is at a crossroads now,
what happens after this will show what kind of man he will
become. I wonder if Anya has had her fill with vengeance?
She didn't have much energy or spirit left outside the Magic
Box when Spike was finally ready to make a wish....
Spike: YOU KNOW, I WISH--
Anya: DON'T.
That is the smartest thing Anya has done this whole episode,
finally realizing that vengeance is empty, it only breeds
more of the same kinds of feelings until someone becomes
transformed into a demon, possessed with getting even, not
much caring about the consequences.
I don't blame anyone this hour, I heard many nasty things
said, but these people are all just reacting to their hurts
and fears. Tara had the best speech of the evening....
Tara: THINGS FALL APART. THEY FALL APART SO HARD.
Willow: TARA?
Tara:YOU CAN NEVER...PUT THEM BACK THE WAY THEY WERE.
Willow:ARE YOU OK?
Tara: I'm SORRY, IT'S JUST...[DEEP SIGH]YOU KNOW...IT TAKES
TIME. YOU CAN'T JUST...HAVE COFFEE AND EXPECT--
Willow: I KNOW.
Tara: THERE'S JUST SO MUCH TO WORK THROUGH. TRUST HAS TO
BE
BUILT AGAIN, ON BOTH SIDES. YOU HAVE TO LEARN IF...IF WE'RE
EVEN THE SAME PEOPLE WE WERE, IF WE CAN FIT IN EACH OTHER'S
LIVES. IT'S A LONG AND IMPORTANT PROCESS, AND...CAN WE JUST
SKIP IT?CAN--CAN YOU JUST BE KISSING ME NOW?
Tara understands the concept of working at a relationship.
You can't build a loving relationship if you are trying to
place blame, get even. The characters have to grow enough to
get to the point that they can learn how to trust each
other, not listen to the fears that can drive each other
apart. It's easy to call Buffy a bitch for not loving Spike,
Anya a whore for sleeping with another man...or Xander weak
for giving into his fears. Problem with that is no one moves
from that point to get to the kissing....;)
[>
Yep,this was a kick-in-the-karma episode.... --
AurraSing, 05:42:18 05/01/02 Wed
Buffy hiding her relationship with Spike comes back to haunt
her (with Xander at least-notice he is the only Scoob that
seems to judge her for it?),Xander leaving Anya at the alter
haunts him,Anya's wish for vengance leads to more hurt for
everyone than she anticipated.
Fun stuff!! But it was well done and a perfect intro to the
season winding down-or should it be winding up?
[>
This is why I look for Rufus' posts. -- Cactus
Watcher, 06:30:25 05/01/02 Wed
Getting wrapped up in the emotion is a good enough reason
for watching Buffy. I don't blame anyone for taking Xander's
side or Anya's. But, this story and 'Buffy' in general
isn't just about the emotions of the moment. Rufus as usual
has seen beyond this, and has gone on to deeper issues, ones
that make old grumps like me care about the show.
One by one this year, we've seen Buffy, Willow and Xander,
succumb to the darkness inside themselves. Entropy was
Anya's turn. The first part of the episode all she could
think of was trying to hurt Xander as much as she possibly
could. Remember that she once swore to Willow (in Triangle)
she would never try to hurt him. But, she felt so bad, I
think, she felt it was the only way she could feel better.
Finally, she does find a way to hurt him as much as she can.
But, she does it unintentionally, and it hurts her almost as
much as it hurts him. Perhaps, for the first time in a
thousand years, Anya may come to understand, that vengeance
doesn't just hurt the one person who is the target, it hurts
everyone who any feeling for that person. It solves nothing
and can have unimagined, even unimaginable
repercussions.
At first, I had trouble understanding why the episode was
called Entropy, but clearly it refers to Tara's speech which
Rufus quotes, "Things fall apart..." Reread that quote. It
says much about what's going on this year.
[> [>
the many meanings of Entropy -- ponygirl,
07:46:58 05/01/02 Wed
Another definition of entropy is the loss of information in
a transmitted image. In this case Buffy and Xander saw the
images of Spike and Anya but didn't understand the meaning
behind their actions. The title works perfectly on a lot of
levels.
As wonderful as it was to see Anya pass her test by turning
aside from vengenance in the end, it was hard to watch
Xander continue to fall apart. It seems that in trying to
avoid becoming his father he is instead plunging headlong
into his role -- physical attacks, verbal humiliation. I'm
hoping he can find his way back.
And oh yes, great posts above!
[> [> [>
Re: the many meanings of Entropy -- alcibiades,
08:45:39 05/01/02 Wed
ponygirl wrote:
"As wonderful as it was to see Anya pass her test by turning
aside from vengenance in the end, it was hard to watch
Xander continue to fall apart. It seems that in trying to
avoid becoming his father he is instead plunging headlong
into his role -- physical attacks, verbal humiliation. I'm
hoping he can find his way back."
Not to mention abusing and hating demons simply because they
make easy "contemptible" targets.
Given that Xander embarked on his attempt to avoid becoming
his abusive father by hurting Anya as much as he possibly
could and deluding himself into believing it was for her own
good, it doesn't really seem that there was ever any
hope.
Xander's pattern has been the same in his two long term
relationships -- when you know the woman has well and truly
fallen for you, that is when you stick in the knife as hard
as you can while not really taking responsibility for it.
He waited until after Cordelia put his picture in her locker
to start the fling with Willow -- the thing that would
humiliate her as much as possible. If he hadn't felt secure
of Cordelia at that point, I doubt he would have done it.
No, Xander took the easy way out with Anya and the wedding
and that is why he is in this bind. So far, I'm not
impressed with his "remorse" either. He's being very
sensitive, but only to his own pain, not to Anya's. That
was clear in both Normal Again and last night. He measures
Anya's pain by how much pain he is in.
He doesn't understand how he destroyed the trust -- all the
things that Tara said in her speech. He's going to have to
start rebuilding everything from the bottom up if Anya gives
him the chance, not by making assumptions that his thoughts
on the current state of their relationship are valid for
both of them.
[> [> [> [>
Re: the many meanings of Entropy -- Rattletrap,
15:04:08 05/01/02 Wed
"Xander's pattern has been the same in his two long term
relationships -- when you know the woman has well and truly
fallen for you, that is when you stick in the knife as hard
as you can while not really taking responsibility for it. He
waited until after Cordelia put his picture in her locker to
start the fling with Willow -- the thing that would
humiliate her as much as possible. If he hadn't felt secure
of Cordelia at that point, I doubt he would have done
it."
Ok, I can understand not liking a character, but this is a
bit harsh, not to mention flat-out wrong in its evidence.
Cordy puts the pictures up in her locker in "Lover's Walk."
Xander and Willow start their fling (mutually, I should add)
several episodes earlier in "Homecoming," and both
immediately agree that they shouldn't because they would
hurt their respective SOs. There is absolutely no evidence
to suggest that he was acting to deliberately hurt Cordelia;
nor is there any real evidince to suggest it with Anya. Did
he make mistakes? Absolutely. But most of those came from
failure to communicate his own doubts and fears, not from
deliberate malice as you suggest.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: the many meanings of Entropy -- alcibiades,
12:06:22 05/02/02 Thu
Wasn't meaning to suggest Xander was acting through
deliberate malice so if you read it that way suspect I
didn't communicate very clearly. What I meant to suggest
was that this is an unconscious pattern of abuse Xander has
imbibed from the family atmosphere. His father obviously
knows exactly where to place the knife to keep his mother
cut down to size. I think Xander has quite unconsciously
acquired that skill from his father.
And now that Xander is so rattled, we have seen other abuse
patterns coming out as well. I expect we will see more as
the Season winds up. Otherwise what was the point of
showing us his loving dad all up close.
Sorry I got the order of events in Season 3 messed up, but
the fact that Cordelia puts the picture up in Lover's Walk,
and that is the same episode in which Xander unintentionally
(because he doesn't expect to get caught) administers the
coup de grace to that relationship does not seem incidental
to me.
[> [> [>
Re: the many meanings of Entropy -- verdantheart,
15:06:54 05/01/02 Wed
Now that resonates perfectly with the episode. As Anya and
Spike were talking together, I was thinking to myself, well,
obviously the Scoobies are going to miss all this and see
only where this will eventually lead -- and fail to
completely understand the situation. It would have really
been instructive for Buffy and Xander to hear what they
missed.
[> [> [>
Re: the many meanings of Entropy -- ravenhair,
17:50:57 05/02/02 Thu
Entropy is also a psychological term describing the coming
together of opposites: As we grow older, we become less
naive and more moderate in our way of thinking. We no
longer view things in a black & white perspective, rather
it's a necessary process in accepting both sides of
ourselves.
Anya took this step forward when she recognized going "mad
and hell bent" wasn't the answer to solving her problems
with Xander.
Tara was able to forgive Willow and reconcile their
relationship.
Dawn didn't seem very affected by Buffy's affair with Spike
and was understanding towards her sister.
Spike recognized the changes within himself and is learning
to accept them.
What of Buffy and Xander? They have yet to take this
important step. Buffy won't acknowledge her feelings for
Spike as genuine and Xander clearly sees things in a black &
white perspective. What will be the catalyst for
change?
[> [>
Thanks for the nice compliment CW....:):):) a little
more on entropy... -- Rufus, 00:40:33 05/02/02
Thu
In a time where everyone seems to have picked sides, someone
to blame, I find that I'm enjoying the story that is being
told. I was facinated with the chaos that was happening this
year. Buffy came back a bit scrambled, Xander slowly
unravelled under the pressure of getting married, and Willow
lost control of the power she considered a tool. The whole
season has been one where chaos seems to be an end result
of. Things are falling apart, quickly..I'll give you a quote
I found about chaos that makes me think of season
six....
"Chaos is a mathematical concept that is somewhat
difficult to define precisely, but it is probably best
described as "deterministic randomness." A chaotic system
is deterministic - it obeys certain equations that can seem
quite simple - but the behavior of the system is so
complicated that it looks random. It is impossible to
predict the long-term behavior of a chaotic system because
any uncertainty in the initial conditions of the system
increases exponentially with time. Chaos is order
disguised as disorder, a sheep in wolf's
clothing." Robert Pool
Look at the episode name...Entropy: Inevitable and
steady deterioration of a system or society. (from
dictionary.com)
When I think of the epsiode name I think of entropic chaos,
or "chaos, which never resolves into patterns. It simply
deteriorates into total disorder, never to return.", and
by looking at what happens the rest of the season the name
fits the goings on. It appears as the gang has spun out of
control, never to return to any sort of order, but as the
quote says "Chaos is order disguised as disorder, a sheep in
wolf's clothing." What appears to be a wolf (the actions of
the SG this year) will actually prove to be a sheep (funny
the word sheep was inside the icecream tuck in Restless).
What was once an impossible situation will finally give way
to.....a new beginning.
[>
Re: The Mistakes we all Make.......vengeance in
Entropy -- Caroline, 07:26:34 05/01/02 Wed
Great post Rufus, and I love the points you made on Anya.
I felt so incredibly bad for her in the montage scene where
she goes from one person to another. All she wanted was
someone to sympathise with her and validate how badly she
felt, to comfort her, mourn with her. Spike was the only one
who provided that for her. When he validated her feelings
she turned the corner from external vengeance to self-
questioning, to the root of all her anger and fears - why
isn't she good enough, why doesn't he love me?
It reminds me of the Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld,
who after the death of her husband imprisons her sister
Inanna and is only placated from her grief and anger when
the mourners are sent to comfort her. Once her feelings are
validated and understood, she loses her desire for vengeance
and punishment, releases her sister and returns her to the
world above.
But none of the females in the Scooby gang do that for her.
Of course one understands why on a certain level - noone
wants to make a wish when there are vengeance demons around.
Also, they truly care for Xander and even though he acted
badly in rejecting marriage with Anya, they understand why
he did what he did. But noone extended to Anya what she
needed until Spike - understanding and compassion for her
feelings.
We see Anya's humanity come a long way in Entropy. I just
wish she had more real friends - she said that Xander was
her best friend and after she lost him, there was only Spike
- how sad.
[>
Growing up in a moment***Spoilers -- fresne,
07:28:40 05/01/02 Wed
Sorry, if I'm going to repeat what anyone else has said, but
post new episode explosion...I do have to go to work.
At the end of the episode, when Anya picked up that bench
and started to clean the Magic Box, which she no longer
needs to run (she has another job now), started to pick up
her life, I got the most powerful sensation that she grew up
in that one moment.
Vengenance, not a solution. You pick up the pieces and you
go on. Then to have her actions underscored by Tara's
monologue (at this point the most mature person on the
show), further emphasized for me, Anya at least has gotten
the point. I'm not sure what the point is. We'll see if she
gets to keep the point, stay an adult, but for that moment,
there it was.
[>
Re: The Mistakes we all Make.......vengeance in
Entropy -- alcibiades, 08:22:30 05/01/02 Wed
Rufus wrote:
"Anya: YOU KNOW I'M ONLY DOING THIS BECAUSE I'M--I'M LONELY
AND DRUNK AND YOU SMELL REALLY GOOD.
Their coupling meant nothing to them, they didn't love each
other, and trying to erase the memory of who they really
loved by having revenge sex, moving on sex, was empty. The
words Xander had for Anya were painful to hear. They were an
attempt to make her feel as bad as he did."
I think this exact sexual experience was integral to Anya's
progress. After all, she became a vengeance demon in the
first place because her boyfriend at the time had
meaningless drunken sex with another woman. This is not a
100% repeat of what happened to Anya then -- she didn't see
herself as with Xander anymore. But from Xander's POV, he
still felt, deluded git that he is, that he was with Anya.
He refers to "our problems".
Anya can now, however, feel-know just how such sex comes
about. And move on. Perhaps from her vengenace gig.
[>
Re: The Mistakes we all Make.......vengeance in
Entropy -- Doriander, 15:32:48 05/01/02 Wed
I agree with everything you said; only I don't think the sex
was intended as revenge sex. In a way it's similar to Buffy
and Xander's earlier actions. When Buffy had beaten up Spike
in "Dead Things," it was mostly because of self-hatred,
hatred of her inner demon embodied in Spike. Xander left
Anya at the altar, for similar reasons, fear of the
potential monster in him.
It wasn't really about Spike and Anya, but happened at their
expense. Neither of them recognize the actual reasons behind
Buffy and Xander's actions. Spike doesn't understand her
guilt for killing a girl, how using him as a sex slave is
killing Buffy. He saw it as Buffy's addiction to misery.
Anya too, only saw it as as Xander abandoning her, Xander
being a coward.
Nonetheless, neither Buffy nor Xander felt any better
afterwards. In fact they felt worse. Buffy bawled on Tara's
lap, Xander checked in a dingy motel.
Now we have the situation reversed. The sex really wasn't
about hurting Buffy and Xander, but Spike and Anya seeking
comfort, moving on. But it hurt Xander and Buffy. Xander and
Buffy, for their part only saw it as a vengeful act. And
neither Anya nor Spike appear happy about it, in fact as
already pointed out, they're in more pain.
Sitting on Both
Sides of the Fence (spoilers for Entropy) -- neaux,
05:19:30 05/01/02 Wed
I'll keep this short and brief. It's mainly an observation
from last night's show and the storm abrewing on this board
about who the audience should feel the most pity for.
Xander or Anya.
I was going to post that I feel pity for both of them and
that would sit me right on the fence line. Just like...
Just like Spike??
Spike appeared magically last night (like the Dungeon
Master from D&D) sitting on both sides of the fence of the
graveyard and the rest of town. Although you could say he
was more on the side of Buffy, He really was positioned
between Buffy and the troika. He straddles the line of good
and evil. The living and unliving.
He has a knack of positioning himself in the middle of
everything. To bring this back to my first thought. He also
positioned himself in the middle of Xander and Anya.
Although he said he didnt really care for Xander, He knows
that Xander is Buffy's friend and to betray Xander is like
betraying Buffy. I dont belive Spike's actions were
intentional but the results put him once again in the middle
of a serious situation.
Someone please take my ramblings and make more sense of
them!! Please!!
Entropy
questions, comments. Spoilers, natch. -- Darby,
06:00:52 05/01/02 Wed
Was anyone else bothered by...
Xander's inability to articulate WHY he wasn't ready for
marriage? He did better on a walk-around-the-block in
Hell's Bells than with all of this prep time?
We all know what his real fears are, and with Anya's
experience with his family, don't we think that if he had
really explained, she would have been more accepting
and less vengeful? Expressing himself, and knowing how to
get an idea across to others, even in emotionally-charged
situations (yeah, sometimes like a slap in the face, but
still) have always been Xander's strong suit. It smacked
too much of a writer's device to move the pawns into the
proper positions.
The total ignoring of the Cecily / Halfrek / Spike thing
when they were actually in a place to address it?
The substitution of the "wild feed" from the Magic Box
between the promo (WAS that Buffy in the promo? We were
certainly meant to think so) and the actual episode.
Don't get the title - everything falls apart? It seems like
just the opposite was happening. The only entropic activity
was in things that had already fallen apart, and even those
forged new or stronger connections elsewhere.
On the other hand...
I enjoyed the calmer, sweeter moments between Buffy and Dawn
(did I miss something or did Buffy confess to her off-
screen?), Willow and Tara, Spike and Anya. The contrast
between the S-A comfort level and the W-T discomfort hit
just the right tone. The characters all seemed more mature
here - I guess I should be upset about the unreasonableness
of that, but it's too welcome a change.
The twisting of the sitcom staple of dialogue giving you
that split-second of "they're going to say...ooo, they
didn't say it!"
The inability of the Nerds to cut off the feed when they saw
what was happening.
I'm sure there will be more - after all, I've only seen it
once.
[>
Re: Entropy questions, comments. Spoilers, natch.
-- Lyonors, 06:39:21 05/01/02 Wed
>Was anyone else bothered by...
Xander's inability to articulate WHY he wasn't ready for
marriage? He did better on a walk-around-the-block in Hell's
Bells than with all of this prep time? <
Um.....yeah. How agravating was it to be sitting expecting
a true to form Xander-love-speech, and get stuck with that
crapola? Very uncharacteristic of him, if you ask me.
>The total ignoring of the Cecily / Halfrek / Spike thing
when they were actually in a place to address it?<
This had me so irate I was twitching in my seat...comeon!
not even any of the body language from OaFA that went on
between the two of them made an appearance. But then
again...ME always wraps up little things like that for you
when you are least expecting it in a nice little box with a
bow and everything.
>I enjoyed the calmer, sweeter moments between Buffy and
Dawn (did I miss something or did Buffy confess to her off-
screen?), Willow and Tara, Spike and Anya.<
I'm with you on this one, and the vibe that I got with Dawn
seeming psychic was if you recall in NA, Buffy goes off on
some such rant to her sister as she is trying to drag her
down to the basement...(OH WAIT! lemme go check Psyche's
Transcripts!) "A girl who sleeps with the vampire she
hates?! Yeah, that makes sense." So I figure if Dawn was
paying attention to Buffy's face when she saw Spike and Anya
going at it, she knew. She also knows her sister really
well. Apparently better than Willow, who should have been
able to spot that something wasn't normal about Buffy's
reaction from a mile away.
>The inability of the Nerds to cut off the feed when they
saw what was happening.<
I think this went from inability to pure curiousity...hello,
the all have major sex-on-the-brain.
Thanks for your little rant...All in all loved the
episode...need to watch it again!
Ly
[>
Re: Entropy questions, comments. Spoilers, natch.
-- Cactus Watcher, 06:52:06 05/01/02 Wed
I think Xander's problem is that he feels his potential
abusiveness is a weakness he may never be able to overcome.
And truly, he alone must overcome it, if he ever wants to
feel good about marrying anyone. Anya would probably feel
better if she knew the truth. But, like Buffy's plea to
Tara not to forgive her for being involved with Spike,
Xander knows Anya's forgiveness in this matter, might just
make it easier for him to live with the possibility of being
abusive, not encourage him to address the issue.
[>
Re: Entropy questions, comments. Spoilers, natch.
-- Rattletrap, 07:01:30 05/01/02 Wed
Was anyone else bothered by...
Xander's inability to articulate WHY he wasn't ready for
marriage?
No, I think this is precisely the point. Xander isn't quite
sure, himself. It is something he feels, not something he
thinks. Of course he can't articulate it.
Don't get the title - everything falls apart? It seems
like just the opposite was happening. The only entropic
activity was in things that had already fallen apart, and
even those forged new or stronger connections
elsewhere.
Gotta disagree here. I think the title was perfect. True,
Buffy/Dawn and Tara/Willow are in better shape than they
were, for the moment. But everything around them seems to
be going to hell in a handbasket. Relationships between
Buffy, Anya, Xander, and Spike are in worse turmoil than
they've ever been. The troika are showing signs of
disintegration. Anya's become a demon again, and Spike
seems to be showing some signs of wanting to revert to his
evil ways.
I enjoyed the calmer, sweeter moments between Buffy and
Dawn (did I miss something or did Buffy confess to her off-
screen?)
I also enjoyed these moments. Buffy started to confess in
"Normal Again." The way the last B/D scene this week was
framed seemed to imply they had been out there talking for a
couple minutes when we joined them. This is a pretty common
screenwriting tactic--joining conversations in progress--
otherwise you repeat too much information the audience
already knows and it gets boring. We saw the important
part, which was Dawn's reaction (or lack thereof).
[>
Re: Entropy questions, comments. Spoilers, natch.
-- yez, 09:32:50 05/01/02 Wed
And to your list, I'd add: And didn't it seem ridiculous
that Willow would choose to study after Xander has stormed
out of the house with an ax after watching his ex having sex
with another man, and Buffy has bolted off after him? It
hardly seems like a "Ooh, finally some peace and quiet --
good time to study!" moment.
I agree with Rattletrap that Xander may not really
understand with his head why he did what he did.
However, I don't think that we get the Buffy/Dawn
conversation in the middle of things. I think what happened
was that SMG didn't quite nail the emoting that she had to
do on her reaction shot after seeing the video. I rewound to
this because I was also "What the... ?!" when Dawn seems to
turn psychic and guess about Spike. MT's facial expression,
blinking pattern, etc., clearly indicate, IMHO, that she
intuits what's going on by seeing Buffy's expression. And
Willow also notes something odd, so we hear her questioning,
confused "Buffy?" But looking at SMG's reaction shot, I just
didn't think it really showed much of anything. Just
MHO.
yez
[> [>
Dawn -- ponygirl, 12:11:16 05/01/02 Wed
Maybe Dawn remembered Buffy's words to her during Normal
Again and figured it out, but I agree Buffy's expression was
more determined face than pained face. Did you also think
that Dawn's comment to Buffy about how hard it was to keep
secrets was not in reference to her stealing? It seemed
like she was leading up to a revelation of her own.
[> [> [>
Re: Dawn -- yez, 12:59:12 05/01/02 Wed
I think it was probably about the stealing -- a way of
saying "We both know I understand." And I think Buffy being
so nice about the stealing early in the show was also about
" I understand your pain," but in reverse.
yez
[>
Re: Entropy questions, comments. Spoilers, natch.
-- Chiomaca,
11:59:01 05/01/02 Wed
"Was anyone else bothered by...
Xander's inability to articulate WHY he wasn't ready for
marriage? He did better on a walk-around-the-block in Hell's
Bells than with all of this prep time? We all know what his
real fears are, and with Anya's experience with his family,
don't we think that if he had really explained, she would
have been more accepting and less vengeful? Expressing
himself, and knowing how to get an idea across to others,
even in emotionally-charged situations (yeah, sometimes like
a slap in the face, but still) have always been Xander's
strong suit. It smacked too much of a writer's device to
move the pawns into the proper positions."
I don't think it's surprising he couldn't express himself.
It would be hard for even a truly articulate person to tell
the person he loves that he's scared to death he might end
up intentionally hurting the person he loves, and to do so
in a way that doesn't send her running the other direction.
Or worse, accuse him of covering up something else. One of
the most bizarre break-ups I was subjected to involved a
vauge discussion that included my eating habits and
decorating style. In the end, the truth came out that he
was afraid he'd turn out like his father did (sound
familiar?) giving up the specific future he'd envisioned for
himself because he married the woman he loved. It was a
vauge, unfounded fear, but he couldn't get past it and it
took him a very long time to articulate.
Chio
[>
Re: Entropy questions, comments. Spoilers, natch.
-- Deeva, 12:53:37 05/01/02 Wed
Xander, absolutely could have come clean with Anya on what
was really scaring him. But, I have to think that, in all
this time that they have been together, did he never, ever
talk about his feelings regarding his family? Could it be
possible that Anya never picked up on any of that? With her
being forth-right and all that, Wouldn't she have just
blurted out one day "Do you hate your parents?" or something
along those lines. Both parties are equally at fault here.
Xander should've said something, anything regarding his
growing unease as the wedding date loomed closer. Anya for
her part (and I'm just throwing myself in her place, here.
So I could be very wrong) should have sensed something was
not quite right. For all the living & being together that
they do, what are they talking about? Are they talking? Or
are they just doing things together without really
interacting? Other than OMwF, we don't really get a glimpse
of their coupledom away from the gang. But maybe it's all in
my head.
The lack of recognition between Spike and Halfrek did bother
me. I mean why have it set up at all? It felt thrown
away.
I enjoyed the same calm moments as well. Overall, I really
liked this episode.
[>
what is entropy -- lulabel, 23:10:47 05/01/02
Wed
Don't get the title - everything falls apart? It seems
like just the opposite was happening. The only entropic
activity was in things that had already fallen apart, and
even those forged new or stronger connections elsewhere.
From the scientific definition, "entropy" is a measure of
disorder, or chaos. The second law of thermodynamics states
that entropy always increases, systems always move towards a
state of greater disorder. It is considered to be one of
the most important defining principals of how the universe
works. (I remember a professor paraphrasing the 2nd law as
"Entropy always wins") One of the consequences of this
principle is that if you want to restore something to its
original, ordered state - for example an assembled jigsaw
puzzle which has been taken apart - then you must expend
energy. Expending energy increases entropy - in this
example, the person who re-assembles the puzzle has
metabolized (ie broken down) food and oxygen to create the
necessary energy for doing the work.
This parallels Tara's statement in the end - not just the
"things fall apart" bit, but the part where she says it will
take a lot of work to re-establish their relationship, and
that even then things will never be the same as they were.
(entropy ALWAYS increases) Her little speech is clearly
meant to apply to all the relationships that were examined
in this episode - the obvious ones of X/A and B/S, but also
Dawn and Buffy who are trying to rebuild trust.
[> [>
Re: what is entropy -- Rattletrap, 08:03:14
05/02/02 Thu
Well explained, and your post has stirred another thought in
me: I believe the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics actually states
that a _closed_ system will always tend toward chaos. This
can be reversed by introducing energy from an outside source
into the system, but the withdrawal of that energy will
always cause the system to drift back into chaos. (this is
a non-scientific, layman's oversimplification) That
convoluted explanation to reach this point: Willow and Tara
have shown that they are willing to put in some energy to
reverse the downward spiral in their own relationship, Buffy
and Dawn are in a similar situation. The same cannot be
said for the other relationships in the show--we have people
who want forgiveness, healing, and restoration but have
expended, as yet, very little energy to that end.
[>
Re: Entropy questions, comments. Spoilers, natch.
-- anom, 11:25:25 05/02/02 Thu
"Was anyone else bothered by...
Xander's inability to articulate WHY he wasn't ready for
marriage?...Expressing himself, and knowing how to get an
idea across to others, even in emotionally-charged
situations (yeah, sometimes like a slap in the face, but
still) have always been Xander's strong suit."
True, but he seems to do this best when he's dealing w/other
people's problems, at least when it happens in the heat of
the(ir) moment. I'm thinking especially of his speech to
Buffy in Into the Woods, but there have been some others. It
can be a lot harder to do on your own behalf. Hell,
I've been able to have significant & sometimes (I hope)
helpful insights into some of my friends' lives on occasion,
& I can be as blind or lost or awkward when I'm in the same
kind of situation I was so insightful about when it was
happening to someone else. Yes, Xander made a wonderful
speech to Anya about his feelings after his talk w/Buffy.
But just as he had rehearsed part of what he said to Anya in
Entropy, he probably practiced that speech...& talking to
Buffy probably clarified his feelings, which were certainly
more acceptable to him than the ones that kept him from
going through w/the wedding. He needs to accept those
feelings himself before he can confess them to Anya.
Bargaining/Hell's
Bells speculation, no spoilers for eps past HB -- abt,
06:51:17 05/01/02 Wed
I've just seen Hell's Bells. I'm sure a lot of you did what
I did when Spike described Buffy as glowing, i.e. considered
the possibility she might be pregnant.
It's actually perfectly possible for Buffy to be pregnant by
Spike.
Buffy was dead.
Willow did a spell to make her not dead. Buffy is still
under that spell.
Spike's seed is dead. But once inside Buffy's body, it too
falls under Willow's spell and becomes alive, and bingo!
Fertilisation!
The question is, how much responsibility should Willow bear
for the resulting child?
[>
That would mean that Willow's spell was working
retroactively, wouldn't it? -- Marie, 06:57:21
05/01/02 Wed
After all, they didn't have sex until weeks later.
Marie
[> [>
Re: That would mean that Willow's spell was working
retroactively, wouldn't it? -- abt, 07:09:46 05/01/02
Wed
Why must you try to ruin my vision of Buffy suing Willow for
child support? ;-)
Point is, Buffy is still under the spell. The spell has not
been undone. It is continuing.
[> [> [>
Re: That would mean that Willow's spell was working
retroactively, wouldn't it? -- Marie, 07:56:07
05/01/02 Wed
Aww, I don't want to ruin anyone's fantasies! But I don't
agree with "Buffy is still under the spell". The spell was
worked, and is now done. Buffy is no longer "under the
spell". Do you mean that if the spell "stopped working",
she'd drop dead? If that were true, ALL spells would act in
the same way, surely?
Willow cast a spell to bring Buffy back to life, not one to
make her continue living, if you see what I mean.
That's my take on it, anyway.
Marie
[> [> [> [>
But the rules could still be changed... -- Darby,
09:13:19 05/01/02 Wed
...so that doesn't mean that the "life" she leads now
follows the same rules as her previous one.
Let's see, who else has been brought back to life as an
apparent human...Darla? Who then was able to conceive with
a vampire...?
I don't buy a Buffy pregnancy because of that same "been
there, done that" aspect, but there's too much we don't know
about her resurrection to be able to rule out the
possibility.
Why are people
surprised at Spike's empathy? (Spoilers, Entropy) --
Marie, 08:50:42 05/01/02 Wed
I'm a little surprised that anyone is surprised!
After all, Spike has always been able to see right
into the heart of the matter, and that empathy would have to
include matters of the heart, right? Remember back in the
day, when Willow was so heartbroken after Oz left? Who
knew? And that's just one example!
Marie
[>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- Deeva, 09:23:13 05/01/02
Wed
They're not surprised at the empathy but the degree of it.
Spike was so honestly there for Anya, that it even threw me
for a loop, and I'm a Spike fan. I don't think that in all
these years there has been such a (and I hate using this
word) tender scene like this, that involved Spike.
[> [>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- clg0107, 10:57:46 05/02/02
Thu
>>They're not surprised at the empathy but the degree of it.
Spike was so honestly there for Anya, that it even >>threw
me for a loop, and I'm a Spike fan. I don't think that in
all these years there has been such a (and I hate >>using
this word) tender scene like this, that involved Spike.
That's got a lot to do with no one else ever letting him be
that way, really. The scene in Afterlife when he first sees
Buffy and knows it's her, and they're sitting down
talking...boy, that was tender.
The way that Spike's been shown to us, partly through the
EXPERT use of body language by James Marsters, I have no
doubt that he's always wanted to treat Buffy that way, but
she won't have it. It's too boyfriend-y.
If she treats him like a casual shag, and will only tolerate
the reciprocal, then it's no biggie, and it keeps Spike in
the comparitively tidy position of being explainable.
Hence, Spike's surprise in (was it??) Dead Things when she
didn't just rush away after their cavorting, but stayed and
had some small bit of conversation? And in the same scene,
wasn't there a plaintive quality to Spike's voice when he
asked her if she even liked him? He may have been getting
great sex, but what he really wants is much sweeter.
There's so damned much to that character, I can't even get
over it. It's why he's my favorite. There's, unexpectedly,
so much to consider with him.
~ clg0107
[> [> [>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- alcibiades, 11:40:55 05/02/02
Thu
"I don't think that in all these years there has been such a
(and I hate >>using this word) tender scene like this,
that
involved Spike."
Spike's scenes last year with Dawn were pretty tender to my
mind. He clearly would have been more tender, but didn't
feel like he could be, as when he wanted to touch her hair.
And he was also the only one who knew how to talk to her at
all, the only one who saw her problem, which is exactly the
way he was with Buffy in the beginning of the Season and
with Anya in Entropy.
Because of her own fears, Buffy has been insisting on
reinforcing the negative, not the positive, in Spike since
OMWF. That is why I am really happy Anya thanked him for
helping her, reinforcing something positive about him at
last.
Buffy has been supporting Willow for months now to help get
her better, obviously realizing she needs support. At the
same time, she has been heaping abuse on Spike. On some
level, conscious or unconscious, she must want him to fail.
It would be easier for her -- a final override of her
attraction to him if he does fail.
[> [> [> [>
You are on to something there. She does want Spike to
fail. -- Spike Lover, 15:33:08 05/02/02 Thu
[> [> [>
I love him too -- Spike Lover, 15:30:38 05/02/02
Thu
[>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- Deeva, 09:39:26 05/01/02
Wed
They're not surprised at the empathy but the degree of it.
Spike was so honestly there for Anya, that it even threw me
for a loop, and I'm a Spike fan. I don't think that in all
these years there has been such a (and I hate using this
word) tender scene like this, that involved Spike.
[>
Not suprised at all, But.... -- Goji3, 12:49:15
05/01/02 Wed
Think about what he does with it. Nothing very
'constructive', but if he did do something constructive with
it, he wouldn't really be Spike.
I'd site some examples...but, eh, i'm lazy
[>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- Chris, 14:14:33 05/01/02
Wed
Delurking just for a moment to add the example of the OMWF
scene when Spike and *only* Spike stops Buffy from dancing
herself to death. Granted, it is Buffy related, and and we
know that when it comes to Buffy, Spike seems to be more
telepathically in tune with her than any of her friends.
Nevertheless, that is only one of several examples of
Spike's empathy from S2-@6 not only with Buffy but, as noted
above, Willow, and also Dru and Dawn.
[>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- Dochawk, 14:15:01 05/01/02
Wed
I think its because what you identify as Spikes ability to
"see right into the heart of the matter" I see as
manipulation. You look at Spike as a human who can be
redeemed, I look at Spike as a vampire who is evil
constrained by a chip and his obsession with Buffy.
[> [>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- Rattletrap, 08:28:38 05/02/02
Thu
This is part of what makes Spike an interesting character to
me. His ability to see right to the heart of the matter (on
most subjects) is a trait that is neither inherently good
nor inherently bad--it can be used for positive and negative
ends. For most of his career on the show, he has used this
skill to selfishly manipulate others for his own gain (The
Yoko Factor is the classic example, but there's no shortage
of others). This season, he has shown some inclination to
turn it toward positive ends (his relationship with Buffy
early in the season seems to fit this category). My gut
reaction is to put his scenes with Anya under this umbrella;
that is, I think his empathy was genuine, if somewhat
mitigated by his frustration in his relationship with
Buffy.
[> [> [>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- alcibiades, 10:58:10 05/02/02
Thu
"I think his empathy was genuine, if somewhat mitigated by
his frustration in his relationship with Buffy."
How does frustration mitigate empathy?
Cause he slept with Anya?
Buffy told him categorically, condescendingly, definitively
to move on.
Or are you saying he used the empathy as a way to achieve
intimacy with Anya so he could sleep with her? So really it
was just manipulation.
I think the intimacy was already there born in an instant of
the pain they were both in that was so similar in many ways
-- the outsider status, the lack of acceptance, the
underlying contempt from people they had worked with
closely, the lack of validation of their feelings of pain.
That is greater real emotional intimacy than Buffy has ever
permitted herself and Spike to feel except for moments like
AfterLife.
As for Xander and Anya, I couldn't say really, but we
haven't seen much of it on screen. Xander admits to Willow
and Buffy in Normal Again that he is better when Anya is in
his life. But that seemed to me to be a revelation to him
during his post-wedding jaunt. I doubt there is much
articulated sharing between the two of them. He's usually
impatient of Anya's honesty.
I also note that Anya thanked Spike for listening to her,
for understanding her, for letting her reveal herself
honestly to Spike. It seems to be the first time she has
been able to do that, perhaps, ever.
I might be wrong here, but it may also be the first time
that anyone recognized and thanked Spike for helping them
with their personal pain. Buffy certainly never did in
Flooded or Life Serial. It scared her too much or she took
it for granted. Although she kept coming back for it.
Which was a kind of inarticulate thanks I guess.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- Rattletrap, 11:38:47 05/02/02
Thu
I agonized over the word "mitigated" in that post because
I'm not sure it's exactly what I meant, but it was as close
as I could come and I'm not sure I can do any better now. I
think Spike genuinely empathized (sympathized might be
better) with Anya, but most of what he says in the first
half of that conversation really concerns his relationship
with Buffy and only indirectly relates to Anya's plight. I
tend to think that Spike is more concerned with his own pain
than with Anya's, even right to the very end. I'm sure
there are those who will disagree with me on this, but after
rewatching the episode I'm more convinced than ever. I'm
not sure this is a better explanation, but it may slightly
clarify what I meant.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Why are people surprised at Spike's empathy?
(Spoilers, Entropy) -- alcibiades, 11:55:09 05/02/02
Thu
"I tend to think that Spike is more concerned with his own
pain than with Anya's, even right to the very end."
Well, to be fair, most of us are at a time when we are
hurting intensely. Does this mitigate what goes on, or make
it the human condition? I don't think it mitigates Spike's
empathy, because unfortunately for most of us I suspect it
is our own profound pain that teaches us to empathise
profoundly with the pain of others.
I read the scene differently.
I think it starts out equally, explicitly about both of
their pain and neither of them is truly listening to the
other. But the fact that Spike knows intimately the
horribility of feeling all those feelings, and that he
admits this to Anya, (as opposed to doing the Scooby denial
routine) is what triggers the true revelation of self at the
end. The conversation doesn't plateau, it moves both of
them ultimately.
[> [>
No I don't! (Spoilers, Entropy) -- Marie,
01:40:22 05/03/02 Fri
You look at Spike as a human who can be
redeemed...
So please don't put words into my mouth. I have always seen
Spike as the vampire he is. However interesting I find him
as a character, and however sympathetic I find his journey,
I've never seen him as human. I'm not a shipper, either,
although, hey, if he knocked on my door... ahem... where was
I? Oh, yes. I personally would like to see him do good
without the chip, but it would be just as interesting to me
if things went the other way, and we get to see how he and
Buffy interact if he turned bad again, now he knows her
inside and out, so to speak.
I'm interested in your use of the word 'manipulation'. I do
see Spike as manipulating people if he thinks he can get
away with it (Hey, evil!), but this has nothing to do with
his 'getting to the heart of the matter', in my opinion.
What I meant by that was the way he cut off people when they
were waffling (go back and watch 'Pangs' again - the
argument Willow and Buffy were having over the Pilgrim
fathers), or simply unwilling to acknowledge their feelings
and those of others (the infamous 'Love's Bitch'
speech).
This programme just gets more interesting to me. I can't
wait 'til S7!
Marie
[>
I'm not surprised, but suspicious (Spoilers,
Entropy) -- JBone, 19:52:33 05/01/02 Wed
What's in it for Spike? But he probably already got his
reward by getting a roll in the hay with Anya and sticking
it to Xander at the same time.
[> [>
Re: I'm not surprised, but suspicious (Spoilers,
Entropy) -- Deeva, 23:47:14 05/01/02 Wed
I'm not of the suspicious mind in this case. I just saw it
as 2 people (and don't quibble about the people part. Too
lazy to go into the massive description that is Spike &
Anya.) looking to drown their sorrows, take the edge off the
pain. Course, it didn't really work. It just got them into a
another level of misery.
Parallels between
BtVS and AtS (Spoilers up to Entropy and The Price) --
agent156, 09:13:41 05/01/02 Wed
Through reading some of the posts, a couple of parallels
between the two shows came to me.
Both Anya and Angel have been betrayed. Anya by Xander who
left her at the altar, and Angel by Wesley who took his son.
In being so hurt, each has reacted quite similarly - by
turning to their demon side to deal with the situation.
Anya's way of deling was to go back to being a vengence
demon with the intent of getting her revenge on Xander.
Angel dealt by using kidnapping and torture (which to me
just drips of Angelus) in an attempt to get his son back.
The human part of each of them is in a lot of pain, and they
are both using their demon-ness to try to alleviate it.
And those who did the betrayal, Xander and Wesley, both felt
that they were doing the only thing that they could. Xander
had strong fears about his future and seeing those visions
only brought them to the forefront. As he saw it, he had to
call off the wedding because even though it would hurt Anya
now it would spare her the worse hurt that would come if he
didn't. Wes felt that by taking Connor he was saving him
from Angel. While he knew that it would hurt Angel, he
thought it was the right thing to do since it would spare
him more pain in the long run.
I love how these two shows can take similar themes and still
handle them in such different ways.
(Probably not very insightful, but that's about the best I
can do.)
[>
Re: Parallels between BtVS and AtS (Spoilers up to
Entropy and The Price) -- LittleBit, 14:17:57
05/01/02 Wed
And the most distressing parallel of them all:
Both these tragic situations could have been prevented with
a bit of open and direct communication.
[heavy sigh]
entropy -- skeeve, 11:48:14 05/01/02 Wed
To me, Entropy was hilarious.
Though Anyanka's ineffectual wishing just seemed nasty and
sad, her efforts to find someone to wish painful things on
Xander was truly choice.
Her description of what turned out to be Jack Daniels was
less choice because it didn't last as long.
The Willow and Tara reunion reminded me of a scene from Taxi
in which someone names the stages of the grieving process as
another person in back of him goes through said stages as
they are named. It finished with a humorous in context
statement about how long grieving takes.
I also liked Spike's `ladies last', but that might just
indicate a low threshold of amusement.
Xander's belief that Spike planted the camera might have
been reasonable. Buffy's wasn't. Buffy has stated her low
opinion of Spike's competence and Spike hasn't been noted
for his use of electronic equipment.
One of the sad things about Xander and Anya is that their
problem could have been solved by a little conversation.
Xander needn't worry about turning into his father. Anya
would never tolerate his father. Spike's little revelation
is probably the reason that the Xander and Anya marriage is
still possible. At the moment, Xander is judging Buffy by
sex with Spike. If he changes to judging sex with Spike by
Buffy, Anya becomes acceptable and desirable again.
We learned a little about the physics of vengeance demons.
Apparently the wisher needn't be human. Spike qualified.
Halfrek apparently didn't qualify. Halfrek knew Anyanka was
a vengeance demon. That seems to be the difference. The
wisher has to be ignorant of the consequences. It seems to
me that Anyanka's persistence with Dawn was a bit risky.
Had Anyanka kept at it much longer, Dawn might well have
wished that there were no vengeance demons.
[>
I liked it too (spoilers) -- mundusmundi,
15:32:15 05/01/02 Wed
Emma Caulfield was terrific, maybe the best she's ever been.
She's moved beyond the one-joke greedy girl and is tapping
into the dramatic promise she showed in her acclaimed scene
in "The Gift."
At the same time, she is continuing to be a crack comic
comedienne. Her bit with Michelle Trachtenberg was classic
shtick.
Xander's belief that Spike planted the camera might have
been reasonable. Buffy's wasn't. Buffy has stated her low
opinion of Spike's competence and Spike hasn't been noted
for his use of electronic equipment.
Hmmm, Spike did use a videocamera in S2. Basically agree,
though. Buffy appeared skeptical herself.
One of the sad things about Xander and Anya is that their
problem could have been solved by a little conversation.
Xander needn't worry about turning into his father. Anya
would never tolerate his father. Spike's little revelation
is probably the reason that the Xander and Anya marriage is
still possible. At the moment, Xander is judging Buffy by
sex with Spike. If he changes to judging sex with Spike by
Buffy, Anya becomes acceptable and desirable again.
Will be interesting to see which he thinks is worse. Xander
looked almost as appalled about Buffy as he did Anya.
We learned a little about the physics of vengeance
demons. Apparently the wisher needn't be human. Spike
qualified. Halfrek apparently didn't qualify. Halfrek knew
Anyanka was a vengeance demon. That seems to be the
difference. The wisher has to be ignorant of the
consequences. It seems to me that Anyanka's persistence with
Dawn was a bit risky. Had Anyanka kept at it much longer,
Dawn might well have wished that there were no vengeance
demons.
I was wondering about this. Makes sense to me now that
you've explained it. Thanks.
[> [>
Re: I liked it too (spoilers) -- LittleBit,
17:50:57 05/01/02 Wed
Regarding the wisher being ignorant of the consequences,
Anyanka used to be worshipped and called actively. In the
WishVerse Giles used a specific spell to summon her -- she
was incensed that a male had used the spell. I think maybe
vengeance demons can't grant wishes for each other, which
would explain Halfrek not offering to grant Anyanka's
wish.
[> [> [>
ignorance -- skeeve, 09:57:50 05/02/02 Thu
LittleBit: "Anyanka used to be worshipped and called
actively."
When WishVerse Giles called her, he didn't get a wish. It
might be that women who summoned Anyanka didn't know that
they had succeeded until they had a wish granted.
If ignorance is not necessary, then pressing Dawn was even
more dangerous than I thought.
An interesting question is what limits there are on for whom
a vengeance demon can grant wishes. Anyanka's search for a
wish suggests that she needn't restrict herself to someone
scorned. Is Halfrek restricted to children?
I'd forgotten Spike's videocamera in S1. Even so, it was a
bit more off the shelf than the set up Buffy found. Did
Buffy know about it?
The Descent of
Xander (not an alaysis,but more of a fear. oh and Spoilers
for Entropy) -- AngelVSAngelus, 12:33:06 05/01/02
Wed
There's a trend that I continue to notice, but have lost
my fear and agitation for because its no longer new or
surprising: dislike of the character Xander. I seem to be
the minority that has always enjoyed his character from the
very beginning, not only considering him the heart of the
group, but often its moral compass in times of indecision on
everyone else's part.
No surprise, then, that I defend him tenaciously to this
day, but I find an odd feeling in the pit of my stomach when
I do these days, and I think I've identified it. Its that
the current turn for him has left a distaste for him in my
mouth as well. Its truly disturbing.
I think with his questioning of Spike's manhood, his
goading him to get back up and fight him back, his 'racism'
expressed against demon lovers, we the audience are meant to
see that Xander is turning into what he fears the most: his
father. Now, that's not just disconcerting because I love
his character and it pains me. That's disconcerting because,
like Xander, much of what defines my integrity and morality
is being the inverse of who my Father is.
when I watch this show normally I see characters with
paralels to my life, people that I can relate to triumphing
over the very struggles that scare me. This gives me the
hope and strength to do so in reality, and while that's not
dictated by the goings on in a fictitious world, seeing
Xander's situation sort of confronts me with my own fear on
an episodic basis.
It scares me. Does ANYONE out there like Xander too?
ANYONE?
[>
Re: The Descent of Xander (not an alaysis,but more of a
fear. oh and Spoilers for Entropy) -- MaeveRigan,
12:43:19 05/01/02 Wed
So sue me--I like Xander too. But I suspect maybe we're
being encouraged not to like him just now. In fact, aren't
ALL the Scoobies showing us their dark sides? Raise your
hands if you really like any of them 100% just now? It's
all right--all part of ME's diabolical plot.
Last season, Buffy died physically. This season, everyone
gets to die emotionally. In some ways, its worse, but I
fully expect most of them to return, maybe better than
before.
Maybe especially Xander.
I love a show that takes risks. Probably explains why most
of my favorite shows (except Buffy) have been cancelled
before 3 seasons finished.
[> [>
Xander and the Way the World Is Now -- cjl,
13:02:25 05/01/02 Wed
One point about "Entropy" before I close my yap and wait six
more agonizing days for "Seeing Red."
About Xander...
Even if I agreed 100% with the "Spike Is Evil" vampire
determinists (which I don't) Xander's behavior would still
concern me greatly. OK, let's say the determinists are
right--Spike is an evil, soul-less vampiric pit bull who
happens to have a chip for a collar. Still...is Xander's
smacking around a chipped vampire whenever he feels like it
really doing XANDER any good?
Joss and his crew are painfully aware that one of the big
problems in the world today is the inability of a select
group of people to see the humanity within another select
group of people. We have examples EVERYWHERE: the Israelis
and the Palestinians, Muslims and Hindus within India, the
mess in Yugoslavia, the Eritrean conflict, the Hutus and the
Tutsis (in the name of God, please stop me). A certain line
of propaganda is set up in each camp (some of it based on
legitimate grievance), reducing the Other to little more
than demonic ciphers, thus excusing whatever heinous act is
necessary to reduce the enemy to rubble. The problem is, of
course, that in performing these heinous acts, the
"aggrieved" party loses its own humanity in the process.
For the record: yes, Xander has lived by "vampires = evil"
since Year 1, Episode 1. His best friend, Jesse, died
horribly and the creature who wore Jesse's face laughed at
Xander's anguish. His grudge against Spike--well, don't get
me started here. But the fact is, Xander has seen Spike's
grey area in full flower during the whole of Season 5 and
the start of Season 6. At some points--during
"Intervention" and "Spiral," for instance--I would almost
classify him as sympathetic towards Spike's situation. But
as his own life situation has deteriorated since "Hell's
Bells," he's played the new Scooby parlor game, Kick the
Spike, with almost as much passion as Buffy.
The Mutant Enemy crew has been setting up parallels between
Xander and Spike all season long, and they're crafting a
deliciously ironic situation: the more Xander gives in to
his rage against Spike, the more he risks TURNING INTO what
he believes Spike to be. Ignoring his better instincts, and
lashing out against the soul-less inhuman monster, he
threatens his own humanity.
I could do a 300-page post on why I think Xander's TV
reception only gets a black and white picture. But it would
dredge up too much personal material, and I don't want to
bore my fellow board members with my own neuroses. (OK, I
do, but I possess the quality of mercy.) And in the end, it
doesn't matter. Xander has to work past his nightmare
childhood and demonic family and self-image problems and
WHATEVER and make his choice: he has come to the point
where he has to see the humanity in the Other if he's to
find it in himself.
To those who don't care about Xander's journey and dismiss
it as irrelevant--IMO, Xander's journey is VERY IMPORTANT.
He's always been the Everyman of the group, and this
horrible, painful situation emphasizes his Everyman
qualities more than ever: All over the world today, here
and abroad, millions of people are faced with Xander's
choice. I think we all have a vested interest in what that
choice is going to be.
[> [> [>
Re: Xander, his women, projection and the Way the World
Is Now -- Caroline, 13:45:40 05/01/02 Wed
Very insightful post. I, too, like Xander (in fact there's
no-one on the show I dislike) and I feel that in Entropy he
hit rock-bottom. From Xander's point of view he got betrayed
by Anya when she slept with Spike. He was going off at her
about sleeping with an evil soulless thing until he learns
that Buffy also did the deed. This is even more of a crisis
for him because Buffy is the heroic and unattainable, the
woman he has idealized and placed upon a pedastal and now
she goes and does something that, in his mind, is completely
reprehensible. The projection that he has of Buffy as heroic
and perfect has come crashing down in his worldview.
So now, all these things he has believed in about Anya and
Buffy have proved to exist only inside his own head. This is
actually a good thing because his perceptions and beliefs
about both women have been, imho, skewed. Neither of these
women is solely what he is projecting onto them and if he
can see them for what they really are, he will have a better
chance to rebuild relationships with them that are based on
his perceptions of who they really are, not what he wishes
them to be. And, if he does that, the scenario of the future
that was revealed to him in Hells Bells would have much less
likelihood of occuring. That is, if he has relationships
with Anya and Buffy based on who they are, his fears about
the future will have less predictive power.
Furthermore, Anya made some very valid points about his lack
of maturity, his lack of self-expression and he himself
realized that he has not been very self-aware. He's made the
first step in realizing he needs to look at himself, he just
has to do it on a deeper level than he previously thought
was necessary.
I feel these comments about Xander apply to several of the
scoobies right now. Willow and Tara seem to be okay for the
moment but the Xander/Anya/Buffy/Spike pairings have all had
certain perceptions come crashing down on them and need to
do the work to see themselves and each other more clearly
before they do as Tara says, which is put in the work and
build or rebuild the trust that is necessary for love to
flourish.
Buffy made good points about not trusting enough to love him
- she can't allow herself to be involved with someone she
doesn't trust. Whatever else Buffy is denying, she shows
here a good understanding of her own needs and boundaries
and also shows that she has learnt something from her
previous relationships.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Xander, his women, projection and the Way the World
Is Now -- Sophist, 13:54:05 05/01/02 Wed
Good points about Xander's view of the women around him. I
would add that he needs also to realize that he is seeing
himself only through projections and fears, namely,
those of his father. If he can see himself as he is, rather
than as what he fears he might become (and is fast in danger
of becoming), he can gain the maturity to re-build the
relationships he has lost.
[> [> [> [>
Have to disagree- Buffy doesn't trust anyone --
Spike Lover, 15:13:35 05/01/02 Wed
All men leave. She will trust Spike with her life or her
family's life, etc or with her secrets, but not w/ her
heart.
Buffy does not know anything about herself yet. She fears
the fire.
[> [> [> [> [>
Huh? -- Caroline, 09:34:55 05/02/02 Thu
I'm a bit confused by your response. I'm not saying that
Buffy does trust anyone, I'm saying that she doesn't trust
Spike and therefore a relationship with them will not be
possible until she does. I'm not saying that Buffy is a
poster girl for psychological clarity but she's certainly
right about trust in relationships. As for speculation about
the future, and your assumption about all men leaving, we'll
have to wait and see. But I personally feel that Buffy
really has to come to grips with her relationship to Spike
because a lot of it has to do with coming to grips with
herself. In that way, it's supremely unimportant to me
whether Spike leaves or stays or whether they ever
consummate their relationship again, what is important is
the self-transformation that hopefully will come as they
deal with themselves and their attitudes about each
other.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Huh? -- Spike Lover, 15:05:16 05/02/02
Thu
It has been noted on this board before that Buffy has
trust/abandonment issues w/ men. She trusted Angel most,
and he went evil on her; later he left her (at graduation).
Riley left her. Her father is a no-show. Giles left her.
The friends she has continues this life lesson: Xander left
Anya. Tara left Willow. Oz left Willow.
It was suggested during Smashed, that the other half of
Spike's line during their verbal sparring was... Afraid to
give me the chance (to hurt you)? Afraid - (that I will
leave-)?
I think this is exactly what one of B's great fears is and
why she kept Riley at bay last season.
In truth, she does trust Spike. She trusted him with her
family and friends' lives. She trusted him to keep her
confidences. She trusted him to keep his mouth shut about
their sexual trysts.
He has proven himself. This is just another excuse she is
using because she does not want to work through her own
pain. -Very human of her.
In truth, the only way B may be able to be involved w/ Spike
is to tell herself that it means nothing. That way, if he
leaves or if it goes badly, she can say 'I am not hurt
because he meant nothing to me.'
[> [> [> [>
I have a question for women -- JBone, 20:41:25
05/01/02 Wed
He was going off at her about sleeping with an evil
soulless thing until he learns that Buffy also did the deed.
This is even more of a crisis for him because Buffy is the
heroic and unattainable, the woman he has idealized and
placed upon a pedestal and now she goes and does something
that, in his mind, is completely reprehensible.
I consider myself a complete idiot when it comes to women.
Do women really hate to be "put on a pedestal?" Do they
hate to be worshiped by the mongrels that we y chromosomes
are? We men, often feel the need to make absolute asses out
of ourselves to prove ourselves, does this mean nothing? Or
maybe you have to be Spike to pull all this off. All other
men need not attempt. I guess I'm just stupified.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I have a question for women -- LittleBit,
21:28:47 05/01/02 Wed
Answering for myself only...
I have flaws *gasp!*
I don't want to be on a pedestal, I want to be accepted as I
am. And I don't buy into "this is how I am take it or leave
it" because then I am stating that I have no intention of
changing and growing. I believe that my part of that
acceptance is to work on reducing those flaws. The problem
with a pedestal is that movement is limited, the pedestal is
too confining. I want room for movement and growth. And if
it's high enough, a slip from it can be devastating.
Admittedly, I want to be admired for my good qualities. But
I want to be allowed my flaws as well. In return, I will try
to be a better person and I will allow you your flaws as
well. Together, we can come to a point where the give and
take becomes fairly equitable.
I also think this applies to any relationship to some
degree. It is particularly important in personal
relationships such as family and friends, not just
romance.
Well, that's one person's opinion. And I'm certain I don't
speak for all womankind.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
ITA! LittleBit, you said it more eloquently than I
would have! -- Sulis, 22:11:40 05/01/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [>
women on pedestals -- lulabel, 22:42:09 05/01/02
Wed
Yes, LittleBit expressed very well the objections one might
have to being put on a pedestal, particularly on a personal
level. I wanted to extrapolate a little more on one
statement she made:
The problem with a pedestal is that movement is limited,
the pedestal is too confining. I want room for movement and
growth.
This is true not just for the individual, but also for women
as a group. In the last century or so, the times during
which the concept of "womenhood" was most idealized were
also the times during which women as a group were most
restricted in personal freedom. The most extreme case in
recent history being Victorian England, where middle and
upper class women were so protected that they rarely set
foot outside of the home. This need for protection was
seated in the belief that women were pure and fragile. (any
one who knows anything about the reality of childbirth knows
what a pile of poo-poo this is!) More recently, in the
1950's, women were idealized as Wife and Mother - which was
basically a way of getting women who worked during the war
to leave their jobs and return to the home.
So while at first glance it may not seem bad to idealize
someone, it can have ramifications not only on the personal
level, but in a greater social context. One way or another,
you are ultimately restricting that person's ability or
choice to be who they want to be.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I have a question for women -- parakeet,
02:10:48 05/02/02 Thu
I almost feel that I should leave this alone, because
LittleBit's respose was so eloquent. However, that would be
assuming way too much common sense on my part.
Why is it wrong to be chivalrous? Well, it isn't exactly.
The crux is your intention, and I don't just mean the
intention that you tell yourself. Are you seeing the object
of your desire as a person? A full-fledged human being with
faults and annoying habits as well as virtues? We all have
the right to be people, to be human beings, messy as they
are. There's nothing wrong with appreciating the good
aspects of someone (indeed, there's nothing wrong with
poeticizing it -- did I spell that right? -- and being
passionate about it). The problem is when you insist that
the other must be an ideal. This isn't just unfair; it's
sick. What are you in love with if not the person? It's
like being obsessed with a carnival mirror image of
yourself. It's like being in love with yourself, but
without your own faults. It's hideously selfish, while
pretending to be the height of virtue.
Of course, this isn't to say that I dislike passion, amour,
or dreaming of things grand and fabulous. I'm just saying
that you should always treat people as people and not as
archtypes.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I have a question for women -- Arethusa,
07:26:19 05/02/02 Thu
Elizabeth Peters wrote that men put women on pedastals so
they would have to remain perfectly still. Almost all women
want the freedom to make mistakes, take risks, be goofy,
fail and try again. Idealizing and objectifying sets
everyone up for great disappointments, and puts unnecessary
pressure on both men and women. Being worshipped isn't as
complementary as being respected and loved.
And a guy doesn't have to look like a model or be uber-
charming to attract women. There is nothing more seductive
than a guy (or girl) who really listens and pays attention
to you.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I have an answer -- SingedCat, 09:18:08
05/02/02 Thu
All I can tell you is what has happened for me. I had a
very meaningful relationship with a man I also greatly
admired. It wasn't until years later that I realized my
idealizing of him was what hurt our relationship most, and
our accepting each other's faults that made us the
strongest.
I had this realization, of course, by getting into a
relationship with a man who idealized me.
It's a little hard to explain this, JBone, and I've just
deleted three paragraphs of trying. He was very sweet to me,
we went places, had similar interests, and common friends.
He talked about his dreams and desires. Upon occasion, he
made me cheesecake. There was good stuff there to go on,
but we never...went on. He seemed to have all that he needed
with my just being there, which sounds incredibly romantic
unless you have a brain. He knew the landscape of his own
feelings, but never tried to enter mine. He never disagreed
with my views, or asked about them; there were no
intellectual disagreements, or even avid discussions. He
wanted us to remain in this romantic, first impression
limbo, and I felt like a fraud, a cipher, as though the
person he was making love to was a paper cutout standing
somwhere between us. I wasn't what he thought I was, I was
me, and if you've never had the experience of having the
person closest to you not know you at all-- well, let's say
the odds in the world may be against that. And it was
impossible to fix-- he had no idea what I was talking about.
See, it doesn't really matter if the person you're with is
seeing you as *better* or *worse* than you really are; the
alienation is the same. Maybe that's why Kurt Cobain blew
his head off. So what I'm saying is, pedestal-attitude
might get you a first date, or even a second, but if you are
ultimately unwilling to see and accept the other, cats and
all, then you'll never achieve intimacy. Take my advice--
deal with the cats.
(or is the expression warts and all?)
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: I have an answer -- skeeve, 10:56:08
05/02/02 Thu
Is SingedCat a dog person?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Me Cat Person- She Who Deals With Cats. :D --
SingedCat, 16:44:42 05/03/02 Fri
[> [> [>
Re: Xander and the Way the World Is Now -- Anne,
13:56:06 05/01/02 Wed
I have always liked Xander; indeed, to me he was the only
character who was fully three dimensional right from the
very beginning, even in Season 1.
Although he is certainly hard to like right now, especially
vis a vis Spike, with whom God help me I identify more than
anybody, I really love your analysis -- in fact, both the
above analyses -- of what's happening with him. It actually
gives me some hope:
"...he has come to the point where he has to see the
humanity in the Other if he's to find it in himself. "
Just brilliant. And I really hope that's what they have him
do.
And I really hope they have something just as brilliant
planned for Buffy. Because to me, right now, she's not too
far behind Xander in her righteousness and intolerance.
[> [> [>
Re: Xander and the Way the World Is Now --
Rattletrap, 14:46:52 05/01/02 Wed
Interesting post, cjl.
I'll add my voice to the chorus of Xander-defenders and
throw my $.02 into this discussion:
Xander's attack on Spike didn't do anybody any good, but
that was never the point. This was an act of pure passion
and rage; not the calculated decision of someone in full
command of his faculties. Despite Xander's occasional
warming toward Spike, the two have never liked each other.
While Xander's worldview is frequently manichean, he comes
by it honestly. A quick re-watching of "School Hard,"
"Lover's Walk," "The Yoko Factor," and "Crush" should
indicate that Xander has ample reason to dislike and
distrust Spike, and occasional agreement or civility between
the two of them is unlikely to change that.
cjl wrote:
"To those who don't care about Xander's journey and dismiss
it as irrelevant--IMO, Xander's journey is VERY IMPORTANT.
He's always been the Everyman of the group, and this
horrible, painful situation emphasizes his Everyman
qualities more than ever: All over the world today, here and
abroad, millions of people are faced with Xander's choice. I
think we all have a vested interest in what that choice is
going to be."
I agree entirely, and a very good point.
'trap
[> [> [>
Cjl - once again we agree! and OT: Dawn Pandora --
shadowkat,
18:12:46 05/01/02 Wed
Praying this posts, having the worst time today.
As you know - you and I already agree on where the
season
is heading and why. We both forsaw what was happening
with
poor dear Willow and Tara. And we both agree on Xander.
Very important character. And very pivotal. Can't wait to
see where they take him. Outside of Spike, he's the other
one I can't quite predict. Except I agree with your take
completely - please feel free to email me any analysises you
have on Xander. You and Linda D's analyses on Willow
were brillant and inspired me to start my own posts.
Now about Dawn - in your Pandora post, where you so kindly
quoted my OAFA analysis,you asked if I thought there was
more than just a metaphor going on here and possibly a
psychic connection as well. To be honest at the time I did
the post - I really wasn't sure. Now after reading yours and
thinking on it - I beginning to think there might be.
It certainly works metaphorically. I also think you may be
onto something regarding Dawn's keyness and her breaking
down of the interior barriers within each character.
There has been a lot of speculation about Buffy being
pregnant on the boards. I don't agree with this thesis.
Why? Because I've thought for some time that Buffy already
had a child - Dawn. In Listening to Fear, Season 5,
Joyce
almost says it. "She's not mine - but she is part of us"
and Buffy says it in the gift - "She's me, she's part of
me - it's more than physical". Of all the SG, Spike is the
only one who appears to get this. He relates to Dawn with
the same compassion and protective spirit that he relates to
Buffy. If Connor is Angel's son - I think Dawn may be
Buffy's daughter - as was predicted by Faith in Graduation
Day Part II - regarding the kitty, B:"who will take care
of
it" F: "these things take care of themselves" B"is it a
boy"
F:"No it's a girl" (not exact but close). Then again by
Tara in Restless : "Be Back Before DAwn" - whose bed is
Buffy sleeping in in Restless? Dawn's. Who did the Monks
make Dawn out of? Buffy. Another interesting point - when
did Spike discover he loved Buffy? After Dawn appeared on
the scene. When does Buffy realize Spike actually does care
- in Intervention when he protects Dawn. Who does spike
protect with his life in the Gift? Dawn. In Bargaining -
who does Spike protect? Dawn. If Buffy is gone - Spike is
protecting Dawn.
I'll probably write a post on this soon, but I see lots
of
interesting dualities this season and pairings,
particularly
surrounding the number three. What's that saying? Things
come in threes? Send out pain and it comes back to you
at the power of three?
Spike/Dawn/Buffy - there's a definite connection.
Spike/Dawn are both left out of Bargaining ritual for the
same reason - if Buff came back wrong they wouldn't allow
Willow to get rid of her.
In bargaining Spike/Dawn are paired.
The Spike/Dawn pairing doesn't really end until Buffy
appears, Then it becomes Buffy/Spike or Buffy/Dawn.
(See Afterlife).
Also OAFA - who is trying to get out of the house and who
releases the demon? B/T/X (release the demon) - W/S/A
are
trying to get out. Instead of releasing W/S/A, they
release
the demon. While Dawn sits upstairs sobbing b/c they've
left
her alone.
so if Dawn is the key to the emotional breakdowns of the
Scoobs, breakdowns that were all btw predicted in Restless
along with the coming of Dawn, then what's the cure?
The worst breakdowns are Spike, Willow and Xander,
because
I think those characters have the most schizoid
personalities. Spike is hiding William (he is Giles in
reverse), Willow is hiding DarkWillow (she is similar
in some ways to Catherine Madison in Witch), Xander is
hiding the racist father or if you like the Dr. Jekyl
and Mr. Hyde Beast from Beauty and the Beasts, the Hyena
inside himself.
Think again about Restless - cjl. Three times Xander
says
he won't go upstairs and the third time his heart is removed
causing him to miss Anya's big day and push up the daisies.
Three times Willow is told to remove her custom, on the
third try, Buffy rips it off her and her spirit
is removed, leaving her choking. Three times Buffy rejects
the hands and she ends up on the floor wrestling with
the
slayer who is trying to stab her in the gut. And what
does
Tara say: Be Back Before Dawn. What does warren's robot,
April say: It's always darkest before the...
Something tells me you're onto something. It's so much fun
to have another mind work on the jigsaw puzzel that is BTVS
with me.
anyways hope that made sense...and thanks again for your
wonderful posts. Your one of the reasons I keep coming back
to the boards.
best 'kat
[>
Re: The Descent of Xander (not an alaysis,but more of a
fear. oh and Spoilers for Entropy) -- Goji3, 13:04:05
05/01/02 Wed
You make some very good points AVA. I to, am a Xander-fan.
you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with what he's
experiencing right now.
He's slowly becoming his father, despite, or perhaps because
of, his efforts not to.
Xander's "Hate" of demons is perfectly understandable
considering what has happened to him (IE: Jesse, Several
Monsters wanting to copulate with/kill him).
And, In a repeat of "When She Was Bad", Buffy has once again
fallen of Xander's high pedastle he set up for her in his
heart. he respected her, now...
God, Anya sure got her revenge alright...worse than anything
a wish could bring.
And on the subject of Fathers, I have to admit that many
things he does offend my own moral compase (he's a Lawyer,
so, that doesn't help either). However, there are aspects
to him that I do find admirable. - Just for the record.
Well, this proves it, Love can not work on the Hellmouth.
(purpously ignoring Tara/Willow for this point).
[> [>
Wedding nightmare -- Spike Lover, 15:19:34
05/01/02 Wed
Remember in X's wedding day nightmare, Anya had had an
affair with a demon; (one child had demon traits.) This
latest infidelity may reinforce his fears.
[>
Re: The Descent of Xander (not an alaysis,but more of a
fear. oh and Spoilers for Entropy) -- Can I be
Anne?, 14:10:10 05/01/02 Wed
I also really enjoy Xander's character. His struggles, his
use of humor to make up for percieved shortcomings, his
relationship with his father, have really rang true for me.
When he didn't go to college with the rest of the group it
was one of the few times that the show has touched on issues
of class(I wish ME would do more here but I'm loathe to
complain too much)
This season, I've really been dismayed by what I've seen
happen. I may not like Anya much(so help me out here) but I
really don't understand why X/A were ever in love. I don't
get what they have in common, how they're at all compatible.
Xander's battle cry since season 5 has been "Sorry, but
she's my girlfriend. It's my job to defend her"
Then, as he fought with Spike, I nearly felt chills, hearing
him taunt Spike to get up, to fight. Attacking Spike is
like abusing a child. He's completely unable to defend
himself! Family redux much? Spike was a third party,
outside of their relationship. It was really not his
responsibility to make Anya be faithful. This is a weakness
I really want to see Xander overcome.
[> [>
Re: The Descent of Xander (not an alaysis,but more of a
fear. oh and Spoilers for Entropy) -- Rattletrap,
14:50:05 05/01/02 Wed
"When he didn't go to college with the rest of the group it
was one of the few times that the show has touched on issues
of class(I wish ME would do more here but I'm loathe to
complain too much)"
I agree, a very good point. I think that subtle tension is
always there, just beneath the surface, in all of Xander's
relations with the SG.
[> [>
Re: Xander: class and other issues -- valkyrie,
15:52:17 05/01/02 Wed
Your comment reminded me of one of my least favorite Xander
comments this season. In Double Meat Palace, Dawn realized
that Buffy might be doomed to nothing but menial jobs, never
having the opportunity to be a professional. Xander rather
cruelly (I thought)quipped that in that case Dawn would have
to go to college and get a good job so she could support her
"deadbeat" sister. I agree that Xander has some real
feelings of class inferiority.
I used to be so fond of Xander; he made me laugh out loud.
Unfortunately, my affection over the last season or two has
seriously eroded. He's become a bully, whose humor is too
often at other's expense.
(Oh, dear this is turning into a longer post than I'd
planned.) In total agreement with the post that started
this thread. I think a major theme of the season has been
the Demon/Human conflict as a metaphor for the
racial/ethnic/religious schisms of real life. "Hells Bells"
underscored the contempt in which the humans, especially the
Harrises, hold those who are "freaks" or Other. The clash
of cultures was explicit.
[> [> [>
deadbeat -- skeeve, 13:09:28 05/02/02 Thu
This one took the deadbeat sister comment as a poor and
poorly timed attempt at humor. Considering Buffy's death
rate, it's not even obvious that she will be around when
Dawn grows up.
[>
Re: Who likes Xander? I do! (SPOILERS for Entropy)
-- mundusmundi, 15:03:42 05/01/02 Wed
I've always enjoyed his character and have been annoyed at
his underuse in recent seasons. Glad to see him back in
action, though, even if it means behaving badly. I just find
the character very real, and that's heartening from a
dramatic standpoint (which is what really interests me) if
not from a moral standpoint (which basically doesn't).
On a semi-related note, I came to an epiphany yesterday that
Nick Brendon has always been my barometer for the quality of
the series. When he looks bored (and his eyes don't lie),
I'm usually in agreement regarding the episode, and not just
the ones where he has little to do. But lately, at the end
of "Hell's Bells" and in all of "Normal Again" and
"Entropy," I've seen him regain his focus as an actor.
That's encouraging to see, for both the character and the
show.
[>
i like Xander -- Liz, 15:33:10 05/01/02 Wed
I've always liked Xander. I'm intrigued that people are
saying how this episode calls up faults he has always had.
I've always liked him. In looking over seasons 1-4 I think
the might be the most admirable character there, because he
just keeps trying. Even though he has no powers or talents,
even though he's constantly thinking that he doesn't do
anything real, he still insists on trying, on helping. It
made perfect sense to me to call him the heart. He's afraid
that he doesn't help, but I think that every time he told a
silly joke and everyone glared at him, he helped. I think
they all would have spiraled into despair and a serious,
warfare mentality without him.
However, now they all have spiraled away. Including Xander.
I'm really not sure what to make of this. Honestly, I'm
wavering between "the writers have lost it" and "the message
is, growing up makes you rigid, blind, and miserable." But
that's a generalized season 6 thing and I hadn't meant to
get into that.
I had great sympathy for Xander when he left the wedding.
And I think that if that's the way he felt, he should not
have gotten married. And I felt sorry for him for being an
idiot about it, as he said, and not sparing her that
nightmare of being left at the altar. I feel sorry for Anya
and sorry for Xander and it's just a tragic situation.
However. When he then decided for them both that they were
still together, and when he then attacked the person she
slept with, I had no sympathy. I don't erase my previous
sympathy, I don't hate him now, but he was simply being a
dick and I don't excuse it. "What, you don't want to get
married but you still want to date?" Buffy asked him
disbelievingly, and that's what he thinks is going on. He
thinks he still has some kind of rights over her-- and
that's not such a great way to think even if they WERE
together. The thing she could do to hurt him more than
anything in the world is sleep with Spike? Those priorities
seem a little screwed up.
[> [>
Well said. He does act as if this is a speed bump
rather than a derailment -- Spike Lover, 16:30:08
05/01/02 Wed
[> [>
Re: Xander & the entropic gyre -- MaeveRigan,
06:38:44 05/02/02 Thu
Liz wrote:
"However, now they all have spiraled away. Including Xander.
I'm really not sure what to make of this. Honestly, I'm
wavering between 'the writers have lost it' and 'the message
is, growing up makes you rigid, blind, and
miserable.' "
Neither of the above. Yes, everyone is spiralling away, it
LOOKS as if everything is out of control. But the writers
haven't lost it--they're engineering that appearance of
chaos. It's NOT growing up that makes you "rigid, blind,
and miserable."
Good grief, folks, you'd think this was ep. 22, not ep.
18.
But the spiral metaphor is a good one (it's been used before-
-B5). Tara refers to it in the last scene by quoting Yeats'
"Second Coming":
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. (3-8)
According to Yeats, everything spins out of control in a
"gyre" of history before some significant event brings on a
new cycle. We're seeing all the scoobies at their worst,
most anarchic just now.
[> [> [>
in total agree-age! -- ponygirl, 07:17:26
05/02/02 Thu
We have weeks of torture still to go! I think this is a
season that once it's over we will all lean back and say, oh
that's why that had to happen. It's just hard to have
everything drawn out week by agonizing week.
Lovely use of Yeats btw. And so appropriate for this
season.
[> [> [>
Completely agree -- Caroline, 09:41:15 05/02/02
Thu
Very good points. It appears to me that everyone has to be
brought to their lowest ebb before the transformation and
positive changes can begin. We have to get rid of the
misconceptions that prejudices that blind us - Buffy about
herself and Spike, Xander about Anya and Buffy etc.
[> [> [>
Re: Xander & the entropic gyre -- SingedCat,
10:37:56 05/02/02 Thu
I agree, people-- all this angst is the birth of their own
adulthood coming at last. But on the Hellmouth...there are
always consequences...
...I'm just waiting for what happens next:
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
[> [> [> [>
Re: Xander & the entropic gyre -- pr10n,
13:15:44 05/02/02 Thu
>...I'm just waiting for what happens next:
>"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
>Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
Damn straight -- this has been the season for literary
allusion.
[> [> [>
the growing-up process -- anom, 18:14:22
05/02/02 Thu
"It's NOT growing up that makes you 'rigid, blind, and
miserable.'"
And I'd say that growing up requires facing where you're
rigid, blind, & miserable. Xander & the others are being
brought face to face w/those things this season.
[> [>
Easy target -- DaveW, 22:09:23 05/02/02 Thu
Xander's had it in for Spike ... well, pretty much for as
long as the character has been on the show. I think it's
important to remember that we as the audience have had a
privileged look at Spike's interactions and relationships
with the other characters. Xander never saw Spike: bond
with Riley over Buffy; help/protect Dawn; watch Passions
with Joyce; um ... interact with(?) Buffy; etc. There have
been a few world-about-to-end Spike-Xander collaborations,
true, but mostly Xander sees Spike as the embodiment of all
that is evil. So he sees this inhuman entity he's not
terribly fond of mounting his almost-but-not-quite wife whom
he still cares about deeply and we expect him to react in a
calm and mature manner? Right. Remember, because of Anya's
not terribly clever ruse at the beginning of the ep, Xander
thinks she might still want to work things out. Plus,
looking at a few seconds of grainy video, it couldn't have
been clear whether Spike was forcing the issue or if Anya
was a willing participant. Hell, I knew he was gonna grab
an axe (yes, I knew it would be an axe) and charge down
there the minute Willow started pulling up vid feeds.
Spike's an easy target for Xander's rage, but Xander's the
easy target for criticism; cut him some slack.
[>
Re: The Descent of Xander (not an alaysis,but more of a
fear. oh and Spoilers for Entropy) -- Mando, 16:26:43
05/01/02 Wed
I love Xander. I have always found him to be the most
likable character on the show. I don't think that Xander is
'Descending' any more then any other of the main characters
on the show have this season. It's been a rough year all
around and each one has done things that are extreemly
selfish and regretable.
I am furthermore still not convinced that Xander leaving
Anya was a bad thing. His only real 'crime' in my book, is,
as he stated this eppisode, not telling her of his fears and
feelings before the wedding day itself came.
Time and time again Anya has shown that she is not dedicated
the the Scoobies in the same way that Xander is. She
admitted once that she mostly just flipped pages when they
were doing research, etc.
His decision to leave her reflects not only a fear of
turning into his father, but (and I think more importantly)
the realization that he will never, for any reason, give up
on helping Buffy fight evil. He can never have a normal,
married life so long as every chance he gets, he will run
off to help save the world. "We help Buffy, That's what we
do."
I think that ultimately, just as Willow is putting the
pieces of herself back together, Xander, too will pull
himself out of his current slump.
[>
a Ramble with Spoilers that needs to live
somerwhere -- fresne, 07:35:33 05/02/02 Thu
You know it's interesting the number of people that have
called Spike and Anya's tryst (filled with
tristesse/sadness) about revenge. I suppose because well,
Xander says it's about revenge and Anya has been going on
about revenge. However, in the normal scheme of things,
there aren't cameras in the Magic Box. Just drunk people and
pickled eye of chameleon (cheaper than newt)
Anya, who has always been posited as honest, gives three
reasons: she's unhappy, she's drunk, Spike smells nice. It's
about how she feels at that moment. I think about Anya when
she was newly human, talking about all these new feelings.
Apparently, when you become a vengeance demon, like when you
become a vampire, who you were informs what you will
become.
And once again I return to the concept of misdirected love,
which is about: me, me, me.
Anya loves Xander and believes that he as rejected her
because she is undesirable, there's something wrong
with her. Three years of remarks and comments come up into
her head and won't go away.
Xander loves Anya and believes that she slept with Spike to
get back at him. Won't marry Anya because there's something
wrong with him.
Which is why I said that the final moments of the episode
really struck me. Anya rejects vengeance. She's always
championed it. Discussed it. Vengeance, which is ultimately
about me, me, me. I want revenge on that for what they have done to me and mine. It's about me
feeling better about me. When Anya said "Don't," that was
moment right there. Her vision expanded and she saw Xander's
pain in addition to her own. Here's where I see her becoming
not human, she's been demonized, but an adult.
Xander's not there yet, because not only was he not able to
articulate why he didn't want to marry Anya, the Heart
wasn't able to see how his rejection would make Anya feel.
Unattractive. Unloved. Demonic. A thing.
Which should in a natural progression bring us to Spike, but
that way I will not tend today.
Okay, one slight detour. It's interesting that knowing that
the Troika is after Buffy, Xander suggests Spike as the
source of the camera. They know that the Troika is
technologically advanced. That they have been following
Buffy, studying her, consider themselves her arch-nemisis-
es. Why Spike? Why now? As others have stated, and for
whatever reason I'm compelled to restate, (probably to make
this longer and more rambly) Spike is everything that Xander
fears, resents, doesn't want to become. Slacker demon (well
he doesn't have a job. Lives in a crypt beneath the earth,
like a basement). Souless. Should be unloveable. How quickly
Xander picks on the concept that Spike was there, like he
Xander was there, for Anya to have sex with.
Somehow, I think of my favorite Jane Eyre quote, "Do you
think, because I am poor, obscure, plain, and little, I am
soulless and heartless? You think wrong! - I have as much
soul as you-and full as much heart! And if God had gifted me
with some beauty, and much wealth, I should have made it as
hard for you to leave me, as it is now for me to leave you."
Not sure why. Spike as we are told relentlessly has no soul.
Anya, I'm not really sure how that works. Xander has a soul,
but keeps doing the walking bit. Perhaps it's the sense of
the cry for the beloved to see the lover as someone of
worth. And I consider Spike's body language in that final
fighting scene. One shoulder higher. Arms pressed together.
Turned slightly away from the entire group. Trying to
protect himself from Xander's words.
While finally, I got to see Anya, not be whiny (tell your
friends we're engaged), but the strong Anya she was in
season 3. More than just learning to be human, Anya has more
and more conformed to the idea that she isn't okay because
of what she was/is. She's right, she did change herself for
Xander. And Xander, if he really afraid that he's becoming a
demon/his dad, needs the strong Anya (Cordelia, Faith,
Buffy, etc.) to tell him to cut it out.
[> [>
beautiful insight! -- ponygirl, 08:27:25
05/02/02 Thu
[> [>
Anya's moment -- lulabel, 21:16:42 05/02/02
Thu
I loved your interpretation here, particularly about how
Anya's "don't" being the moment where she becomes an adult,
with the ability to see past me, me, me.
I think an equally critical moment in this episode is the
final exchange between Tara and Willow, which was clearly
not just a happy ending to cheer us all up. Tara has often
provided guidance to the others in the group - here again
she demonstrates the adult path. She acknowledges the pain
and hurt between herself and Willow, as well as the rocky
path that is still ahead. This scene is the perfect
complement to Anya's moment - it is a hopeful foreshadowing
of what may eventually come to pass with the other broken
relationships.
I was also glad you commented on Spike's body language
during that final confrontation. I was also intrigued by it
because I would swear that Spike was not trying to defend
himself in any way during his tussle with Xander. The most
striking instant was when Xander whipped out the stake -
Spike sees it and merely puffs up his chest and sticks out
his chin WAITING FOR IT. Now the chip prevents Spike from
fighting back, but he's certainly capable of shoving someone
away ( I think is Afterlife he gave Xander a forceful
shoving with barely a twinge) and he's certainly capable of
outright running away. I have no idea how to interpret this
lack of self defense - I'm interested to see if the shooting
script gives any indication of my interpretation.
[> [> [>
Re: Anya's moment -- ponygirl, 06:46:04 05/03/02
Fri
Spike's reaction to the stake actually reminded me of his
dream in OOMM, where he simply tenses up and waits for the
blow. Seems to speak to a similar state of mind, an "end my
torment" kind of moment.
[>
Re: The Descent of Xander (not an alaysis,but more of a
fear. oh and Spoilers for Entropy) -- maddog,
11:56:55 05/02/02 Thu
No matter how big of a moral compass Xander has been
throughout the show's 6+ years, he's ALWAYS hated vampires.
Good or Bad. So this should be no shock to anyone. I
wouldn't change your opinion of him now. Cause he's always
hated them as a whole and you liked him. You also must
remember that he's just done with what happened with Anya
and he's not exactly thinking straight when it comes to her.
Spike happened to be the target...but she could have slept
with anyone and his reaction would have been bad(it just
intensified cause of the vampire angle).
I, personally, still like him. Sure, on occasion when he
does overact on the vampires you want him to just keep his
mouth shut. But overall he is a good guy. He's got issues
though, like we all do. His parents aren't exactly great
role models. That can certainly attribute to his current
situation. I see him in the same place that both Buffy and
Willow are in. They've made mistakes. They're learning to
be adults and that they have to pay for their mistakes. It
goes along with the "Oh Grow Up" theme of the year. But it
doesn't make them bad people. Good people make mistakes.
It's how they all rebound that matters. And we may not see
that right away. That may take til the middle, if not the
end of next season.
Sick Point of
View #2 (Entropy) -- SingedCat, 14:09:48 05/01/02
Wed
Second sick point of view-- it was kind of pleasing to see
Anya do something so very human as turning to Spike for
comfort. And it was just a little bit unfair for the
Judgement King and Queen there to be acting like it was a
deliberate insult-- I mean, can't two (um, shall we say-
JILTED) people get it on in the semi-privacy of a closed
shop? And I love Xander, I really do, but I couldn't help
thinking as he was exiting that scene-- "How he feels now--
was exactly how Willow felt when he kissed Cordelia and
slept with Faith."
And dammit, it sucked for Spike to say what he said right
then, but Buffy should have grown a pair and said it first,
and he's looking at her standing there *not* saying it-- I
can't get on him as much as I might.
OK, enoiugh Xander-bashing. Anya was all too willing to get
back into the demonic thing. That "chance" she was giving
Xander to explain himself was just a fake-- she couldn't
deal with working it out the hard way, she wanted the easy
hurt.
Ironically, she wanted to torture and kill him, but now
that's she's hurt him so deeply by sleeping with Spike, it's
not satisfying. I just get the idea that she wouldn't have
chosen that way to do it, even if she'd known it would hurt
him this much.
And great scene with Spike and Anya-- GREAT job from them
both, especially Marsters. You can see that Spike isn't
actually that big on the whole pick-up line, get-the-girl-
into-bed thing like you might think; it's really their
frank
comiserating that makes him charming, not his compliments.
(though I think they were at least partially sincere) I
especially liked her line,"You know I'm just doing this
because I'm drunk, and lonely, and you smell *really*
good...?"
And Spike's look to Anya just before he walked out the door.
We could have a whole other thread on it. You could tell
he might be a ashamed on his own behalf, but he wasn't doing
the stereotypical guy thing of losing respect for her. He
seems to at least understand sex as something people do
together, not something the guy *does to* the girl, which
the girl *lets* the guy do. (sorry, just something that's
been on my mind lately).
[>
Agree on the head tilt thing (Re: Sick Point of View #2
(Entropy)) -- vandalia, 20:57:29 05/01/02 Wed
I really agree on the head-tilt. To me, it was as if he was
saying 'no regrets here' to Anya before walking off, kind of
an 'its okay' gesture. They both knew nothing would come of
it, they both needed it, and afterwards they both felt
awkward and confused. I think maybe Anya was worried Spike
would hold it over Xander's head, maybe tell him, and he was
reassuring her that it was between them, that he respected
her too much to do that to her, even after the sex. God the
man can portray so much with just a nod of his head!
[> [>
Re: Agree on the head tilt thing (Re: Sick Point of
View #2 (Entropy)) -- Liz, 11:11:16 05/02/02 Thu
Yes, that was an interesting exchange of looks. They got up
and it was awkward and bad, but he nodded and then left, and
I thought he was not only saying, "no regrets," I thought he
was also saying, "I'm OK if you have regrets." Or "You want
me to go and that's fine, I understand." Or something like
that. It was friendly and respectful, even if I'm not
putting it into the correct words. It was nice. It was a
simple gesture that made a scene that could have played out
as horrible and sad, and made it all right. The whole thing
(to them) wasn't a bad mistake. It was meaningless, but
also comforting, and to them it implied nothing for the
future but was still not an utterly wrong choice.
Unfortunately they were seen. And... interestingly, to
Xander and Buffy it was all horrible. To Xander and Buffy
it was a statement about Xander and Buffy. And because of
that, it became kind of public knowledge, and so it BECAME
about Xander and Buffy. Anya had to explain and say that it
meant nothing and that Spike was just there. If she hadn't
had to explain that to anyone, if it had remained private,
then it might have been a sweet comforting moment. But
because people barged in and made claims, their claims
actually changed the situation. How strange.
[> [> [>
People's claims -- yez, 15:06:35 05/02/02
Thu
Yeah, that does happen, doesn't it? People's perceptions
seem to almost change the event. I would hope that Anya and
Spike could retain their own perspective about it, and not
buy into Buffy and Xander's versions of things.
I'm not sure I really get exactly what Spike's look meant,
but I agree it was loaded, and that's enough for me to
appreciate it. Anya's look troubled me, though. Both of
them, they seemed even lonelier than before. I think that,
like alcohol can cause a hangover, that kind of consolation
sex can really drive home how much you aren't with the
person you want to be with, even though it can feel really
good for that little while, and leave you feeling even
lonelier and emptier than before.
I really wish Spike could've kicked Xander's ass... Not
seriously hurt him, but given him a good whipping and maybe
knock some sense into him. Buffy, too. That pair have just
been so freakin' lame lately... IMHO.
yez
[> [> [> [>
No Satisfaction -- Spike Lover, 15:21:28
05/02/02 Thu
The head nod was sort of 'gentlemanly' thing to do. A & S
were clearly in a great deal of pain as they got dressed.
Compare, if you like, their silence w/ Spike & Buffy's
conversation at the beginning of Wrecked.
But what spoke volumes as to what Spike was feeling in my
mind was when Xander was whaling on him, and pulled out the
wooden stake. Rather than duck or dodge, Spike, when he
sees it, stands up straight to give Xander a better target.
Spike was clearly in a LOT OF PAIN and remorseful.
And then Buffy shows up, and she still won't defend him or
acknowledge him. I hate her guts.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: No Satisfaction -- SpikeMom,
20:46:15 05/02/02 Thu
I agree also that Spike's inclination of his head was a
gesture of respect, like tipping a hat to a lady. Also not
much difference than the "respects" salute offered in
martial arts classes before and after a sparring
session!
I was glad that Spike finally spoke up about him and Buffy.
He gave her one last moment to speak up, to show him the
simple respect he so desperately craves. She had her
chance. I think Spike finally showed himself some respect.
He's taken enough rejection from Cecily/ Dru/ Buffy. What
was it he said in CRUSH... AAAHHH!! What the bloody hell is
wrong with these bloody women!!!!?
[>
as O/T as you can get, but you struck a note --
yuri, 21:15:47 05/02/02 Thu
He seems to at least understand sex as something people
do together, not something the guy *does to* the girl, which
the girl *lets* the guy do.
Coincidence, it's been on my mind lately too. I'm a girl,
and it absolutely infuriates me. Once I was hooking up with
this guy and he stops all of a sudden and looks at me deeply
and says "are you sure?" I was really offended. I've had
arguments with people - guys, mostly - about this, and they
say that considering "how the world is" and how much this
sort of thing can become an issue, they feel safest and
kindest when they say something like that. I can really
understand that, and I suppose that to ask when not
necessary is better than not to ask when necessary, but if
someone knows me, my personality and strength and politics,
I find it audacious and offensive to imply that I would be
doing something I don't want to do.
My thoughts on
Entropy -- Spike Lover, 15:01:21 05/01/02 Wed
Great Episode. (It has been a while.) But first, is
Charisma Carpenter pregnant? (0r just delivered?) She is
looking a little heavy.
Great ep. Ok. I thought Willow and Dawn figured out
Buffy/Spike's secret a little too easy and their non-
reaction was a big let-down.
Other than that- I think Jonathan is next on the evil duo's
hit list.
Great ep on the over all childishness of the characters.
re: trio. How many more people have to die/be endangered
before B & SG will go to the police about what they know?
How about an anonymous tip to crime stoppers? And it really
shows how shallow B is. She was all concerned about the
death of the girlfriend when she thought that she had done
it. But now that she is not going to be the center of
attention, what is one more dead girl?
re: Willow & Tara -getting back involved without working
all the way through the problems -very human and yet, a bad
mistake.
re: X -trying to have his cake and eat it too like so many
men. He is unwilling to make a permanent committment to the
woman he claims to love, and wants her to live with him, -
and have their relationship return to the way it was. It
will never be the same. Anya is right not to give in. Why
should he buy a cow when he can get free milk through the
fence whenever he wants?
re: JM -he has chemistry! I swear that scene w/ Anya was
really hot, especially before it got to the table. Very
touching. And he is right, B & X are weak. and young and
stupid.
re: Anya- correct that Xander is a scared child (but aren't
we all.) She did not go far enough. He is a coward and
needs therapy.
re: Buffy's snide comment to Spike "it didn't take you long
(to move on)". That made me mad. It tells me that she does
not want him to move on at all, but wants him to forever
wait in the wings as rejected guy- hoping eternally that the
primadonna will change her mind. She deserves - to be
cursed by a vengence demon- and to have her teeth kicked
in.
re: B & X going off in one direction at the end. Someone
commented earlier that they read this as X & B being labeled
as the "wronged" party. I disagree. What rang home with me
was that other lesson one learns as one grows in maturity...
He who hesitates is lost or he who hesitates, loses. Love
does not last forever. It can be stuffed out. It can
dwindle and die if scorned or untended. There is a
timeframe for love. (I am reminded of Doyle and Cordy.
Doyle loved Cordy but could never tell her til the end, and
then he was dead.)
Buffy just threw away the best thing that has ever happened
to her. (Maybe she will wise up later and figure that out-
but probably not.) Xander failed to step up to the plate
(or the altar) and now Anya has already demonstrated the
truth- that people who are treated in such a way, do not
wait forever; they don't always back-pedal (like Xander
wants or what Tara/Willow might have just done); often they
move on to greener pastures and live happily ever after
without you (See Dickens' A Christmas Carol)
[>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -huh? -- Corwin of
Amber, 21:41:23 05/01/02 Wed
Ok...I realize your handle is 'Spike Lover' but...
>Buffy just threw away the best thing that has ever happened
to her.
is taking it a bit too far, in my opinion. A lying,
manipulitive, murderous vampire is the best that Buffy can
do? Buffy just has to get over her 'bad boy' fixation, find
some nice guy with a pulse and move on.
[> [>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -huh? -- Rob,
06:46:04 05/02/02 Thu
But is he a lying, manipulative, murderous vampire any more?
I would say no.
Rob
[> [> [>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -huh? -- Robert,
07:25:30 05/02/02 Thu
>> "But is he a lying, manipulative, murderous vampire any
more? I would say no."
He hasn't murdered anyone recently, but we have evidence
that he would if the chip ever stopped functioning. Spike
most definitely is still manipulative. He has been working
Buffy ever since she broke off with him.
[> [> [>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -huh? -- maddog,
11:24:21 05/02/02 Thu
That may not be by choice though...so we're back to the
"what if he got rid of his chip" theory. He's awfully
moody. I'm just worried he'd go back to his old ways if
scorned by one of the Scoobies.
[> [> [> [>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -huh? -- Morgane,
17:49:30 05/02/02 Thu
Anyway, as we saw before, didn't all the scoobies turned to
their dark side when scorned. Willow, Anya, Xander, Buffy.
They weren't always at their best you know.
Anyway, lately, in the B/S relationship, I don't believe
Spike has been the manipulative one very much.
And Buffy, she got over her bad boy fixation with Riley, but
she's two strong, her past is too intense, her secrets to
heavy for a nice, normal guy, don't you think? She needs
someone who can at least understand what hapenned to her. I
mean, the last time she tried to explain to a guy what was
her life about, it was to Riley and she didn't succeed very
well. And back then, she hadn't died and resurrect from
heaven, so who could believe her outside the scoobies. The
only one who I ever see understanding her deeply was in
After Life when Spike was holding her hands on the
couch.
[> [>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -huh? -- Purple Tulip,
08:51:27 05/03/02 Fri
I really don't think that Spike was the manipulative one
here. I mean, Buffy was the one who openly admitted that
she was just using him, while she knew all along how madly
in love with her he is. Right now, I would say that he
acting more like a heart-broken, love-sick man rather than a
murderous, manipulative vampire. I find it ironic how
people are so quick to condemn Spike for his past actions
and say that he's evil for what he's done, but will give no
blame to Buffy for being less than perfect and hurting
people as well. After all, Spike is the only one who helped
her when she came back, the only one she could turn to, and
the only one who never expected a single thing from her.
[>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -- Cydney, 06:58:02
05/02/02 Thu
Xander, the puppy, has always wanted to be alpha dog - and
has always had stronger competiton in Angel, Riley, and now
Spike. There is a reason why all his friends are girls.He
doesn't have the self-esteem to compete (he believes) with
other guys. I like Xander, but trying to kill Spike who
cannot defend himself, is a bit over the top (though I
predicted Buffy would have to save Spike at some point -
though it wasn't a very 'savey' scene).
Xander and Buffy are both very hypocritical (a reflection of
their need to grow up) at this point - Anya and Spike are
not. I think what happened makes perfect sense - it's the
way people can feel and react. Anya and Spike knew
immediately what they did was just a momentary thing - but
still had respect for each other. Xander and Buffy both have
a problem with respecting certain others - and considering
Buffy let Riley have it for just that...well. Guess she only
applied the some demons are good thing to Angel.
Dictionary defintion of entropy is long, but includes - a
measure of a system's disorder, chaos, the degree of
disorder or uncertainty in a system.
We've been headed here all season. Love it!
[> [>
What do you mean? -- Spike Lover, 08:11:12
05/02/02 Thu
Xander and Buffy both have a problem with respecting certain
others - and considering Buffy let Riley have it for just
that...well ??
hypo or hyper -critical?
[> [> [>
Re: What do you mean? -- Cydney, 07:42:50
05/03/02 Fri
Not sure what you are asking, but I am referring to the
episode (Yoko Factor, I think) where Riley leaves Buffy in a
rush in the am because there is a demon to kill and Buffy
says she never knew he was so prejudiced (sp).
Yet, she can't see past Spike being an 'evil thing' (though
Tara can) because he doesn't have a soul. Yet, Maggie Walsh,
the nerd herd, Ben, and even Angel - all with souls -have
done terrible, evil things.
I think Buffy (the character) has a lot of great qualities,
but is still too subject to peer pressure (another sign of
immaturity).
Make sense?
[>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -- maddog, 10:24:36
05/02/02 Thu
I think they've all been suspecting it. I'm actually
surprised Xander didn't get it faster, but he did have his
own disgusting reaction over Anya to have. As for the non
reaction...Dawn's only mad at Spike when everyone else
is(I've always thought they got along fairly well). And I
think Willow was trying to be supportive gal to everyone.
Xander doesn't need therapy. He's very human in his
reactions. I think the problem is he's in love with a very
old soul. She's been around long enough to understand how
relationships really work. Where's Xander's experience?
Cordy? Does that even count? He's young...and sometimes
you have to learn the hard way...just don't do it to a
vengance demon. :)
Does anybody remember how young these people are? Can't we
cut them a little slack here? I mean, how many 21 year olds
are mature enough to handle the things that Buffy does on a
daily basis? I don't think we cut her enough slack for the
crap she does put up with and handle...let alone the stuff
she screws up.
While I agree Xander screwed up I can't say Buffy's is a bad
choice. While her chemistry with Spike is great...that's
not really a mature, adult relationship(especially if she
couldn't even explain it to the Scoobies).
[>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -- skeeve, 10:39:19
05/02/02 Thu
It's too bad that someone who was thinking better than
Xander didn't remind him that Anya was a vengeance demon for
a thousand years. She wouldn't put up with Xander's father.
There might be other ways for him to hurt Anya, but turning
into his father wasn't one of them.
Then again, maybe the marriage wasn't such a good idea.
Living with Anya might have been dangerous for Xander. How
much pain would he die in if he forgot an anniversary?
Leaving her at the altar was worse, but not that much
worse.
[> [>
Re: My thoughts on Entropy -- maddog, 11:39:07
05/02/02 Thu
Remember though, she'd lost her powers until last week. So
if he'd just married her then she wouldn't have gone
vengance demon on him and the threat wouldn't have
existed.
[> [> [>
skinning alive doesn't have to involve a demon --
skeeve, 12:56:50 05/02/02 Thu
[>
Another example of "She who hesitates,
loses" -- Spike Lover, 15:12:52 05/02/02 Thu
Riley: Moving on and getting married to Sam.
[>
May they be happy with the life they've chosen! --
Rochefort, 20:37:10 05/02/02 Thu
Don't shoot me,
but... (spoilers for Entropy) -- celticross, 16:30:32
05/01/02 Wed
...am I the only person who's not exactly happy Tara took
Willow back last night? Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of
the W/T ship, but apart from Tara mentioning trust in her
(nice) little speech, there was no word on the whole mind-
wipe fiasco. No apology from Willow on how she screwed up
and manipulated her lover so things could always be happy
instead of facing the truth of Tara's views on the use of
magic. Is it now good enough that Willow's magic-free, and
what does that mean for the break-up? That it was never
Willow's fault, because the nasty magic made her do it?
The mindwipe spells were, in my opinion, representative of
emotional manipulation in any relationship, and Tara was
both wise and very, VERY strong to get out when she did. I
have real trouble seeing the Tara who saw through the spells
to what they really were (Willow controlling the
relationship because she didn't want things to be difficult)
becoming the Tara who's happy enough that Willow isn't using
magic anymore.
[>
Re: Don't shoot me, but... (spoilers for Entropy) -
- Vickie, 16:57:46 05/01/02 Wed
I thought that Tara's speech was pretty self-explanatory.
She knows that they have a long road to travel, putting
their relationship back together (if they can). But she's
not willing to leave the smoochies on hold while they travel
it.
I didn't read her speech as literally "skip it", though that
is what she said.
Apparently, Tara's impressed by the progress Willow has
made, courting her and carefully NOT making the Xander
mistake. That is, Willow doesn't pretend that she has any
right to object to Tara's friend, if the friend is more than
just a friend. This is very non-controlling. Also, Willow is
quite frank that she is relieved the friend IS just a
friend.
[>
I disagree... -- Rob, 17:03:54 05/01/02 Wed
"Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the W/T ship, but apart
from Tara mentioning trust in her (nice) little speech,
there was no word on the whole mind-wipe fiasco. No apology
from Willow on how she screwed up and manipulated her lover
so things could always be happy instead of facing the truth
of Tara's views on the use of magic. Is it now good enough
that Willow's magic-free, and what does that mean for the
break-up? That it was never Willow's fault, because the
nasty magic made her do it?"
I don't think that is what is being implied at all. It was
most certainly Willow's fault that she used the magic the
way she did. A drunk driver isn't acquited of killing
someone because he was too drunk to know what he was doing,
if you know what I'm saying. But, while the situation was
her fault, she was still under the influence of very dark
powers, which have represented the only form of harm Willow
has ever done Tara (and ever would do). Therefore, with the
threat gone, with Willow's overcoming of her addiction, and
Tara seeing how far Willow has come, Tara is ready to let
her back into her life again.
Yes, Willow was using mind-manipulation, and yes, some may
never be able to forgive it...but Tara is a very wise
person, and she realizes that, in the normal course of
events, Willow would never have done this. While Tara was
mad, hurt, and outraged when it happened, she knew that
Willow was becoming addicted to the magic. And the harm
Willow did to Tara was, of course, a spell. Tara left her
because of her addiction. I don't think Willow should be
punished forever, since she has now been clean for a long
time and has shown great determination to stay on a straight
and narrow path (only not that kind of straight ;o) ).
As far as an actual talk about the Lethe's Bramble, I don't
think it was necessary to show. They both know what
happened, and would probably both rather forget about it now
(no pun intended)...When Willow was caught originally, she
apologized to Tara, but words don't mean anything if you
don't back them up. Now, the only apology Tara needs is to
see how much Willow has done to make amends for the harm she
caused her. Actual change is far better than promises and
apologies.
Rob
[> [>
Re: I disagree... -- DEN, 17:22:20 05/01/02
Wed
And is there nobody on this board who hasn't let their heart
command their head--just once? I think Tara came to the
house full of good intentions. She said all the right things
about trust and time. And then she saw Willow. Be honest.
What would YOU have done?
[> [>
Re: I disagree... -- Farstrider, 17:48:21
05/01/02 Wed
If Willow had stabbed Tara, would everything be ok if Willow
stopped using knives?
I think you missed the point of Celticross's post. The magic
was simply the means to an end. It was the tool that Willow
used to do something awful to Tara. The fact that she did
the awful thing is still important, and not excused merely
by Willow deciding not to use that tool.
[> [> [>
Yes, it was awful, but... -- Rob, 19:36:12
05/01/02 Wed
...there is a serious difference between stabbing someone
with a knife and what Willow did. As awful as it was, Willow
did this because she thought she was helping things. At that
time, she thought it really would be better for both Tara
and her if Tara just forgot the conversation. She did not
commit an act of violence against her; it was a violation.
She should not have done it. She had no business doing it.
It doesn't make what she did any less wrong, but she did
what she did out of a desire to make things better. One
couldn't argue the same thing if she had stabbed Tara. If
she had stabbed her, it would have been an act malicious in
conception and execution. The brainwash she did was
malicious in execution, but, in conception, Willow thought
it was the most peaceful thing she could do--stop the
argument from continuing. No, I don't agree with it. Yes, I
think Tara was right to dump her. But no, I don't think
Tara's wrong to take her back now.
If Willow had truly been an abuser, she might have gone
after Tara with her magic after Tara left her. But she
didn't. Because she loves her and would never harm her
intentionally, even if Tara broke her heart into a million
pieces by leaving her, which she did. (Again, not that she
wasn't right to do so...)
Willow acted recklessly, and wrongfully, but if Tara can
find it in her heart to forgive her, I don't see why we
shouldn't be able to. As I said before, Willow made serious,
true repentence here, not only by apologizing, but by
completely changing her lifestyle. I think she deserves huge
props for that.
Magic wasn't a "means to an end," as you put it, because,
had Willow not been a witch and not used magic, she would
have had no way to erase Tara's memory. She certainly didn't
want to hurt her...She wanted the fight to stop. Magic
became Willow's all-access remote control. Why go up to the
TV to change a channel when you have a remote? And in the
same token, why go out and get party decorations when you
can just go poof and have them appear? Why work at a
relationship and deal with an argument, when you can just
make it go away? That's how Willow became addicted...Using
magic as an easy way out of uncomfortable situations.
It would be a very different story if Willow had summoned
dark forces to smite Tara...but she didn't. If she did, you
could compare it with physical abuse. As it stands now, it
was a case of good intentions, BAAAAD idea.
Rob
Rob
[> [> [> [>
Sorry, Rob, but I don't agree -- Vickie,
19:53:31 05/01/02 Wed
For me, there's a line you can cross, beyond which I don't
care what your intentions were. And, for me, Willow crossed
it.
She didn't violate Tara's mind just once. She did it twice,
the second time deliberately breaking a promise. Even if
"she thought it really would be better for both Tara and her
if Tara just forgot the conversation," Tara made her own
position clear after the first occurrence.
Even with the best intentions in the world, you don't
override another beings free will that way. Not if they're
an adult. Children may need protection, but even there you
must respect their personhood and not play thought
police.
Willow was very lazy in her relationship with Tara, very
arrogant, and very wrong. Yes, she has tried to overcome her
"magic addiction" and largely succeeded so far. But
addiction wasn't the problem in the relationship (as you
have pointed out). Her controlling actions were.
We call a romantic partner who tries to control what their
SO thinks and feels abusive. Willow was abusive of Tara in
those two actions.
Please don't get me wrong. I love Willow and I truly believe
that if she ever figures this out she'll be devastated. But
the whole "addiction" thing has muddied the water.
As always, your mileage may vary. Rip it up.
[> [> [> [> [>
Sorry, I left "coercion" out -- Vickie,
20:22:15 05/01/02 Wed
I left coercion out of my definition of abuse above. It
should say "We call a romantic partner who uses coercion to
control what their SO thinks and feels abusive."
Obviously, I think the Tabula Rasa and Forget spells are
coercion.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Abusive Relationships in BtVS -- Spike Lover,
08:48:56 05/02/02 Thu
Well, well. What is this? Now who is being accused of
being abusive? Not just evil Spike anymore, (though I never
thought he was abusive- well, maybe a bit to Harmony.)
Let's tally this up.
1) Xander, who fears he will turn into his abusive father
and will end up killing his wife w/ a frying pan. He has
assumed the controlling high road- and perhaps for sometime
has (in the past for always correcting Anya's thoughts,
feelings, and words. -mild form of emotional abuse.)
2) Buffy who beats her lover to a pulp in an alley
(physical) and tells him he is an evil thing (psychological
abuse).
3) Willow who tries to control her lover's feelings and
actions with magic.
4) The trio who are going to create a sex slave, controlling
her desires and free will. (Rape issue has already been
noted and discussed.) Then beat her to death. If she had
not died but had lived, they would have made her the sex
slave again. (Sexual abuse)
5) Others?
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Sorry, Rob, but I don't agree -- maddog,
09:01:17 05/02/02 Thu
In all fairness to Willow the second time wasn't meant for
Tara, it was meant for Buffy. So that wasn't premeditated
or planned...hell, her mind was screwed with the second time
around. Fortunately for Tara and Willow you're not Willow.
:)
[> [> [> [> [> [>
The second time was meant for BOTH Buffy and Tara -
- RelativeGirl, 09:43:34 05/02/02 Thu
I think Willow's second "mind erasure" spell was definitely
meant for both Buffy and Tara. When Willow kneels at the
fireplace to do the Tabula Rasa spell she says:
'For Buffy and Tara this I char, let
Lethe's Bramble do its chore. Purge
their minds of memories grim, of
pains from recent slights and sins...'
So I think it's clear that Willow was trying to take Tara's
bad memories away just as much as Buffy's. At the end of
the episode when Tara pushes Willow off of her, Tara's upset
not only because Willow broke her promise to not use magic
for one week, but even more horrifying, Willow used the
Tabula Rasa spell to violate Tara's mind a second time in an
ill-considered attempt to remedy having been caught
violating Tara's mind the first time with the Lethe's
Bramble spell. That was an enormous betrayal by Willow
which destroyed the trust between them and Tara knew she had
to leave Willow no matter how much she loved her.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The second time was meant for BOTH Buffy and
Tara -- Malandanza, 11:02:20 05/02/02 Thu
I agree but would add that I think the spell was primarily
meant for Tara -- Buffy was a convenient excuse. Willow
could lie to herself and say that she was casting the spell
for Buffy's sake and she had to include Tara (also for
Buffy's sake -- since Tara wouldn't understand), but the
truth is that the spell was all for Willow's sake.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The second time was meant for BOTH Buffy and
Tara -- maddog, 11:44:39 05/02/02 Thu
I'd agree with the later half that it was all for Willow's
sake but I have to disagree that it was more for Tara...did
you see the look in Willow's eyes in OMWF when she heard the
word "heaven". That was pain. To think she'd ripped Buffy
from heaven must have killed her. And if a mind altering
spell to make her forget her good experience(and not be so
upset in general and mad at Willow) is what it takes then
she was prepared to do it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The second time was meant for BOTH Buffy and
Tara -- maddog, 11:10:58 05/02/02 Thu
Don't have Tabula Rasa on tape. I must have missed the
mention of Tara in the one and only time I saw it. I
thought she was just so upset about where she'd pulled Buffy
from that she wanted her to forget it. My bad.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Yes, it was awful, but... -- maddog,
08:39:40 05/02/02 Thu
Suppose Willow thought Tara was going to do harm to someone
and stabbed her to keep her from doing so. Then she has her
good intentions, but was wrong to do what she did.
Intentions are nice and all, but your actions are what
counts. What Willow did showed signs of immaturity not
often found in her character. Instead of facing her
problems she decided to use magic to get rid of them. In
saying that I still don't see a problem with Tara taking her
back.
[> [> [> [> [>
Two cents worth -- Celia Murphy,
12:26:49 05/02/02 Thu
A fair warning that I'm one to occasionally surf the
discussion board and not post so forgive me if this has been
posted before.
Everyone has been talking about Willow's actions and Tara's
reactions in her abuse of magic. While it's obvious that ME
is using the drug metaphor, I think the troubled
relationship between W/T is rooted in Willow's immaturity.
How many of us have based current relationships on past
relationships? Willow was betrayed by Xander by his "rather
being with someone you hate than with me" and betrayed by Oz
with his actions. It didn't surprise me in the least that
Willow turned to magic when things went rough between her
and Tara. She turned to magic when Oz betrayed her. While
I'm not an expert by any means, I would expect that after
losing the love of her life in Oz and then "realizing she
was gay", she basically was starting over again. There are
some parallels between W/O and W/T. These are both first
loves in a sense. She resorted to magic when things were
rough. She went on her "will" hunt to stop the hurt after Oz
and went with Amy to "have a good time" to stop the hurt
after Tara. I don't believe that Willow understands what it
takes a relationship to work. Everytime things get rough,
she takes the easy way out. This goes back to the first
episode when she breaks into the city planning site ("guys,
there may be an easier way").
But I digress. Tara left Willow for one reason and one
reason only. Trust. She could no longer trust that Willow
wouldn't continue to find ways to manipulate her. The fact
that she came into Willow's bedroom in Entrophy doesn't
change that. This whole relationship started out as friends
with magic as the common denominator. Willow hasn't gotten
past that stage while Tara has. The end of Wrecked speaks of
"Tara didn't even know that girl". Willow is too scared to
let Tara see that girl she was (and I believe still is).
Remember Restless?
I agree that Tara is not really taking Willow back with open
arms. It may very well be that ME is just running out of
time if the rumors are to be trusted.
Well, that's my rambling for the day. Guess I'm out two
cents ;-)
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Spoiler for Seeing Red in above post -- LittleBit,
12:44:08 05/02/02 Thu
[> [> [>
Re: I disagree... -- maddog, 08:30:33 05/02/02
Thu
I don't this it was just that simple as Tara's recognition
of Willow not using magic. I think it was a lot more(much
of which is described in the previous posts).
[>
I totally agree. -- Ian, 18:08:30 05/01/02
Wed
I think CC hit the nail on the head when she said,
"Tara...saw through the spells to what they really were
(Willow controlling the relationship because she didn't want
things to be difficult)."
Willow has abstained from magic, yes. Magic has been made
to seem drug-like, yes. However, Tara left because she
understood that magic wasn't screwing with her mind and
identity, Willow was. For this same Tara to return to
Willow without an actual statement from Willow acknowledging
this is bizarre. The root of their relationship problems
was Willow's desire to have her way at any cost, and her
disrespectful and abusive behavior of Tara.
Willow may be in denial of the actual problem, but Tara
hasn't been. For this reason, I had the same problem with
how Tara's return was handled.
To me, the drug-like nature of Magic have always seemed mis-
represented by the show. Magic was addictive to Willow
because Willow was on a power trip. Willow was addicted to
*power.* Magic was just Willow's tool. Willow may have
used magic to improperly, but it was always Willow's
responsibility.
For these reasons, I'm am also unsatisfied with how their
reconciliation was handled. Willow stopped using Magic.
Good. However, has Willow ever voiced that the problem lay
in her intent and behavior? Not really. Willow and the SG,
with the exception of Tara, have treated this as a case of
"bad magic." However, Tara left precisely because she
understood she was being mistreated.
I have no problem with the two of them getting back
together. In fact, I welcome it. However, I was aggravated
that Tara came back without even a simple *statement* from
Willow saying, "I'm sorry. Magic didn't abuse you, I
did."
Willow's actions do speak loudly. But not THAT loudly.
[> [>
Very good points, but suppose in the next ep... --
OnM, 19:26:33 05/01/02 Wed
...Willow does say, "I'm sorry. Magic didn't abuse you, I
did" or words to that exact effect?
Would that be acceptable, or do you think it should be
necessary as a prior?
I just think the two are profoundly in love, and Tara is a
forgiving sort at heart. She apparently forgives Buffy for
her relationship with Spike, and she's not in love with
Buffy.
(BTW, not spoiled in this specific instance, so I really
don't know if she does or does not).
[> [> [>
Why would Tara (spoilers up to Entropy) -- Vickie,
19:42:13 05/01/02 Wed
need to forgive Buffy for anything? She hasn't been wronged
by Buffy's relationship with Spike. It doesn't appear that
she's even been hurt by it (definitely not the same
thing).
Apart from that quibble, I agree. I doubt Tara consciously
intended the outcome we saw, when she went to visit Willow.
She most likely wanted to continue the relationship repair
they had started in the college corridors and at the coffee
shop. But seeing Will in their old room, the feelings came
through very strongly and....
Blam! Willow kissage.
I don't think Will gets the whole abuse thing yet,
though.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Why would Tara (spoilers up to Entropy) --
maddog, 09:21:25 05/02/02 Thu
I agree...Tara really doesn't have anything to be mad at
Spike about...so it wouldn't hurt her to have Buffy sleeping
with him. But he's terrorized the others since high school.
They have a right to not like him, and a right to be upset
with Buffy for lieing to them about him.
[> [>
Chiming in to agree too -- Sophist, 20:06:05
05/01/02 Wed
Ian's points are excellent. The only mitigating factor I can
think of is that if Willow has given up magic, her tool of
oppression, then Tara is no longer at personal risk from
that source. It may, therefore, be safe (physically) to
return. But clearly Willow and ME have not acknowledged yet
the true nature of the harm done. Happy as I was to see them
together, that still needs to happen.
[> [> [>
Re: Chiming in to agree too -- Robert, 07:45:50
05/02/02 Thu
>> "But clearly Willow and ME have not acknowledged yet the
true nature of the harm done."
This is a very strong statement. What is your evidence?
[> [> [> [>
Proving a negative -- Sophist, 08:19:29 05/02/02
Thu
My own view, supported I think by most of the posters here
(at least in this thread), is that the real problem with
Willow's behavior was her abuse of power, not abuse of
magic. Tara specifically said this to Willow in TR, but in
every episode thereafter, Willow has behaved as though her
problem were magic "addiction". I don't believe she has ever
acknowledged her real fault, and it is that absence of
evidence to which I referred.
My mention of ME in the same sentence was meant as a dig at
the magic=addiction metaphor, which I don't like and which I
don't think explains the real nature of Willow's problem
that was correctly identified by Tara in TR.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Proving a negative (various SPOILERS of past
episodes) -- Robert, 11:21:50 05/02/02 Thu
If I wanted proof, I would have asked for it. You gave a us
very strong statement in you original posting.
>> "But clearly Willow and ME have not acknowledged yet the
true nature of the harm done."
The word "clearly" implies to me that if I don't agree with
your conjecture, then I don't see clearly. You gave the
statement without any support in your posting. I asked for
some support, mostly because I was unclear on what you meant
by the "true nature of the harm done".
>> "... Willow's behavior was her abuse of power, not abuse
of magic."
I do agree with this. Willow has consistantly considered
rules and laws to be something which applied to somebody
else. Starting with "Welcome to the Hellmouth", Willow was
cracking computer networks to get access to privaledged
information. I believe that her excesses may be attributed
to her insecurity about herself. The episodes "The Wish"
and "Dopplegangland" provide us a graphic view of Willow
without any inhibitions. Previous to season 6, Willow's
abuse of power has been to serve the needs of the group and
their mission. In season 6, the abuse turned inward.
Before "Tabula Rosa", Tara was not asking Willow to abandon
magic, just to use it sparingly, for necessary and important
purposes only. At this point however, Willow was so drunk
with the power she garnered from magic, she began to see her
friends and lover as something less than equal.
I view the true nature of the harm done by Willow as
betrayal, and though this applied to all of the group,
Willow's betrayal of Tara is greater than for the others.
All the physical and mental injuries were minor compared to
this. What do you see as the true nature of the harm? What
do you mean when you say that Mutant Enemy (ie. the writers)
have not acknowledged the true nature of the harm?
We have not seen on screen a verbal "fifth step" style
acknowledgement from Willow of the harm she committed upon
her friends and family. We did see the initial
pronouncements of remorse and guilt after Dawn was injured
in "Wrecked". At the time, I didn't think these statements
were sincere. I figured that Willow would go right back
into using magic worse than ever, and that a more serious
accident would be needed before Willow hit rock bottom.
Willows actions since then however have demonstrated a level
of commitment and contrition beyond words. I am hoping that
ME does not give us a "fifth step" scene at this point, as I
think it would be excessively hokey. I don't believe that a
statement of "I'm sorry" is what her friends and family
need.
This may tie also into the current difficulties between Anya
and Xander. Some have suggested that their relationship is
beyond redemption and, in a sense, it certainly is. Anya
and Xander can never return to the way it was before Xander
proposed marriage in "The Gift". However, a new
relationship may be possible. Their current relationship
has been doomed all season due to lack of communication and
contradictory requirements.
Xander cannot, or will not, get married. The act or
ceremony of marriage sticks in his craw, no doubt due to his
parents disfunctional relationship. Some might think Xander
is unwilling to make a commitment, yet in a sense he already
has. Anya wants or needs a marriage and children and the
rest of the ideal American style family. Xander is
completely at fault for proposing to Anya when he couldn't
deliver. He set an expectation he couldn't meet.
The question is whether Anya can forgive his betrayal at the
altar and enter into a relationship without an expectation
of marriage. I would certainly not blame her if she can't
or won't. It may be that a new relationship just isn't
possible.
Xander has repeatedly told Anya that he loves her, but his
actions at the altar suggested otherwise. In "Entropy" Anya
was not willing to hear or believe his words. During her
session with Spike and the alcohol, she gained some empathy
for Xander and lost the desire to smote him with demon
vengeance. What will she take from Xander's showdown with
Spike at the end of the episode? Xander is showing in his
actions that he really does still care for Anya (whether
this is love or possessiveness is a question for future
episodes) and that he was deeply hurt by her actions. Will
this serve reconciliation or more conflicts? I don't
know.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
When you're sorry for the wrong thing, it doesn't
count. -- yez, 13:45:25 05/02/02 Thu
"I am hoping that ME does not give us a "fifth step" scene
at this point, as I think it would be excessively hokey. I
don't
believe that a statement of "I'm sorry" is what her friends
and family need. "
It's not so much that Willow should say she's sorry. She
needs to acknowledge what happened. I'm with others who feel
that we haven't been shown yet that Willow truly understands
what was wrong with what she did -- and more importantly,
*why* she did it. For me, the hope is that in an "I'm
sorry," we would actually see what she thinks she's sorry
for and why she thinks she did what she did. It makes a
difference. Like others, I feel that Willow giving up magic
doesn't solve the problems that led her to do what she
did.
On the other hand, her lack of self-insight and these issues
is great fodder for future drama. :)
yez
[> [> [> [> [> [>
I think we're in agreement here -- Sophist,
14:54:36 05/02/02 Thu
even if I haven't explained it well. If we agree that the
true nature of the harm was abuse of power, not magic, then
all I meant was that ME has confused things with the
magic=drugs metaphor. It has not mentioned the abuse of
power since TR. All I meant by "clearly (they) have not yet
acknowledged the true nature of the harm done" was that this
point has not been made a part of Willow's recovery.
I agree with you about Xander and Anya.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Willow's Insecurities -- RelativeGirl, 15:12:10
05/02/02 Thu
>>"I believe that her excesses may be attributed to her
insecurity about herself"<<
I totally agree. Willow is someone who clearly was raised
to play by the rules and, for the most part, she has done so
and excelled in all the ways she was expected to excell.
She's the good girl who is, in her own words, very seldom
naughty. But instead of having her ego bolstered by things
like her academic success and intellectual prowess, she
seems to have interpreted her abilities as irrefutable
evidence that she is a geek, a nerd and somehow not worthy
of love (obviously she had help from the Cordelias of the
world and her absentee parents to develop this self-
loathing). Like most of us who were subjected to the hell
that was high school, Willow began to define her worth, and
her "coolness factor", based on the coolness of her friends.
Although the SG was never treated as the 'in-crowd' in high
school, Willow clearly sees Buffy and Giles as "cool" people
she wants to hang with. So she takes her talent with
computers and makes herself useful and necessary to cool
Buffy and cool Giles (and for a while, cool Jenny Calendar)
by hacking in to every computer network imaginable. In
other words, she raises her self esteem by breaking the
Rules in order to strenghthen her relationship with people
she deems to be "cool".
When Willow pairs up with Oz, she's again breaking the Rules
for a good girl b/c she's dating a musician -- something a
bit out of the ordinary for good girls who are very seldom
naughty, a bit rebellious. Again she sees her relationship
with Oz as proof to herself that she is not just a geek or a
dork b/c she's dating a musician.
Later in high school Willow breaks the rules by dabbling
with Magic, making herself even more useful to the SG. As
Dawn reminds us in The Body, Magic is all about messing with
the natural order of things, it's about breaking the Rules.
And both we, and I think Willow, begin to discover that she
has the potential to be a profoundly talented witch when she
is actually able to restore Angel's soul.
In college, Willow starts pursuing magic in a serious way.
In doing so, she meets Tara, a sister witch, and falls
deeply in love. Obviously ME used magic as metaphor for sex
with Willow and Tara, but sometimes when they were doing
spells, they were just doing magic spells. In other words,
for the first time, Willow had a co-conspirator in breaking
the Rules, a partner in every possible sense of the word.
And a partner with whom she is also breaking the rules about
good girls being heterosexual (for the record, I believe
Willow is absolutely positively gay, and not just
experimenting b/c it breaks the rules). Willow seems to get
a bit of a charge every time she announces she is gay
(especially when being interviewed by the Watchers' Council)
whereas Tara seems much more comfortable and grounded with
her sexuality. Excelling in magic and falling in love with
Tara must have been incredibly intoxicating for Willow. Her
self-esteem was clearly bolstered by Tara and the magic --
both validated Willow's belief that she was no longer a geek
and a dork. So she ran with it and became more and more
deeply entrenched in the black arts until she was no longer
in control.
I think one of the all time heart-breaking Willow scenes is
in Wrecked when Willow and Buffy are talking in Willow's
bedroom and Willow pretty much lays bare all of her
insecurities and the extent to which she tried to use magic
to ensure that she was worthy of Tara's affections:
WILLOW: The magic. I thought I had it under
control. And then... I didn't.
BUFFY: Why? Because of Tara?
WILLOW: No. It started before she left. It's why she
left.
BUFFY: But everything seemed to be going so well...
WILLOW: It was... But, I mean, if you could be plain old
Willow - or Super Willow? Who would you want to be? I guess
you don't actually have the option on the whole "super"
thing.
BUFFY: Will, there's nothing wrong with you. You don't need
magic to be special-
WILLOW: Don't I? (near tears) Buffy, who was I? Just some
girl. Tara didn't even know that girl...
BUFFY: You were more than "some girl". And Tara wants you
to stop. She loves you-
WILLOW: We don't know that-
BUFFY: I know that. I promise you.
WILLOW: It just, it took me away from myself. I felt so...
free.
Obviously Willow doesn't believe that "plain old Willow" is
worthy of all the things Willow desires from life, including
Tara's love. I think it's just astonishing that Willow can
doubt whether Tara actually loves her. Say what you will
about Tara, but even people who dislike her would admit that
she's one of, if not the most, loving and giving characters
in the Buffyverse, whether it's her love for Willow or her
nuturing of Dawn or her empathy for Buffy. That Willow
actually doubts that Tara loves her speaks volumes about
Willow's belief that she is not worthy of Tara's love and
therefore Tara's love for her cannot be real. And at the
end of her sad speech, Willow admits that the best thing
about magic is that it took her away from herself -- which I
take to mean that she so loathes who she fears she might
actually be, she is willing to go to extremes to escape
herself, to not be that girl at the drinking fountain who is
ridiculed by Cordelia for "finding the softer side of Sears"
and not "being such a guy magnet."
So long as Willow is enslaved by her insecurities, her
relationships with all of her friends, but especially Tara,
will be vulnerable. Willow's got a mountain of work to do,
and I don't know if Tara realizes the size of the task, but
I think it's admirable that she's willing to return to the
relationship and try to provide the love and support that
Willow will clearly need to heal herself. How that's going
to happen, or if that's going to happen, in light of the
upcoming spoilers . . . . troubled waters ahead.
[> [>
Re: I totally agree. -- clg0107, 10:22:16
05/02/02 Thu
>>However, Tara left because she understood that magic
wasn't screwing with her mind and identity, Willow was.
>>For this same Tara to return to Willow without an actual
statement from Willow acknowledging this is bizarre.
Keep in mind though, Tara still loved Willow even when she
left. She was doing the smart thing, yes. But the love
didn't die.
Now, with Willow "clean" and them having this tentative
rapprochment -- how easy for all that love to come rushing
back to the forefront, overwhelming even the most sensible
of intellectual considerations. At least, that was my take
on Tara's little speech at the end.
Tara may be the most mature of them all, but she's not made
of stone. I don't see this as a bizarre turn at all. How
many of us wouldn't come back to someone that we really
loved to try it again, even if logic says that maybe it's
too soon???
The point of many of the themes of the series is that we can
identify ourselves with the characters, even though their
fears/problems/etc. tend to manifest as otherworldly beings
and situations. I can identify with Tara in this. I'm not
saying it was logic-based behaviour. But I get it. And
that's the point....
~ clg0107
[>
Re: Don't shoot me, but... (spoilers for Entropy) -
- vandalia, 21:05:23 05/01/02 Wed
I don't think Tara has gotten back together with Willow at
all, though I wouldn't fault Willow (or the audience) for
thinking so. I can definitely say that Tara isn't moving
back into the house, and I think that Tara will probably
tell Willow in the morning that last night didn't mean they
were back together, it just meant she was willing to give
Willow the chance to keep trying. I think this will also
really hurt Willow. (utter speculation, I'm not spoiled at
all).
Tara was just like Spike and Anya, to a certain extent: hurt
and lonely and needy and probably sexually frustrated (it'd
been MONTHS for her, after all). She knew Willow would say
yes, and she needed some companionship (though I never
would've thought Tara had it in her to make a booty call).
But I do think its going to come back and bite her in the...
booty, when Willow realizes this does not mean all is
forgiven and forgotten and she can't just go back to the way
things were before.
[> [>
Re: Don't shoot me, but... (spoilers for Entropy) -
- Rattletrap, 21:31:09 05/01/02 Wed
It is worth noting here that "back together" can mean a
bunch of different things. After the end of "Entropy," I
think it is fair to say they are involved with each other in
an amorous (possibly even sexual) relationship, probably an
exclusive one--in that sense they would be "back together."
I think vandalia is correct, though, that Tara will probably
be a bit guarded about moving back into the house or
becoming too committed at this early stage--they would not
be "back together" in the same way they were in
"Bargaining." The scene at the end of "Entropy" suggests
that the healing is beginning, not that it is complete. In
that sense, I can commend Tara's decision to get back
together with Willow as a kind act of faith and trust, not
one of abject foolishness.
[>
Okay, after reading the responses of those who
agreed...(a little bit of spec) -- Rob, 21:07:02
05/01/02 Wed
I understand the position you guys seem to have on the
whole, which is that, yes, it is good Willow has stopped
with her instrument of abuse, but the bad thing is that she
hasn't acknowledged the true source of the problem which
lies not in the "addiction" but in her own actions.
After reading your posts, I agree with you partly. While I
don't think Tara was wrong to take Willow back, I do think
that Willow hasn't addressed the real problem, although I
still think she deserves a great deal of credit for getting
over her surface addiction. But I think that that is the
point, too, and is Willow's major character flaw. I think
the writers have a very specific reason for leaving this
flaw in...and we'll just have to wait for the next bunch of
episodes to see if my theory fits in with what occurs.
I still think, though, that it is a good thing that Tara and
Willow are back together. So sue me! :o)
Rob
[> [>
Re: Okay, after reading the responses of those who
agreed...(a little bit of spec) -- Robert, 07:48:09
05/02/02 Thu
>> "I do think that Willow hasn't addressed the real
problem,"
On the other hand, with Tara back, it may be easier for
Willow to work through the core issues and problems.
[>
Re: Don't shoot me, but... (spoilers for Entropy) -
- relativegirl, 22:44:41 05/01/02 Wed
I didn't interpret Tara's speech and the Willow kissage to
mean that all is necessarily forgiven and in the past. As
long as Willow kept using magic, there was no way Tara was
going to get thru to her (Lord knows she tried several times
before she finally left), and we didn't see Tara having any
contact with Willow until she heard from the SG that Willow
had gone cold turkey. Then Willow approached Tara several
times in very tentative ways and never took the attitude of
"OK I've kicked the habit so you have to come back to me
now." Instead, Willow approached Tara knowing that she
didn't have a right to expect anything from Tara. I think
this shows genuine contrition on Willow's part.
I also think that Tara's wise enough to know that it can
take time to mend a relationship but sometimes you have to
get back into the relationship to mend it as opposed to
staying totally apart and hoping that you will each figure
stuff out on your own. So I interpreted Tara's actions in
Entropy as more of a reaffirmation of her love for Willow
and her willingness to return to the relationship, but
knowing full well they have a lot of work to do to rebuild
the relationship back to what it was.
And sometimes when you absolutely know you've found your one
and only, you just can't stay away.
[> [>
very well said... especially that last line. ;-)
......btw, welcome to the board! ;-) -- Solitude1056,
23:37:12 05/01/02 Wed
[> [>
Re: Don't shoot me, but... (spoilers for Entropy) -
- Rufus, 00:58:50 05/02/02 Thu
I didn't interpret Tara's speech and the Willow kissage
to mean that all is necessarily forgiven and in the
past.
I do see it as Tara forgiving Willow. Of course what I
consider forgiveness to be is the putting aside the
resentment, not condoning the act. Tara has been able to put
aside her resentment, and attempt to rebuild a relationship
with Willow. By coming back to Willow she isn't condoning
her misuse of magic, but trying to build a new relationship
with someone she loves and will learn to again
trust....people get stuck when they think that forgiveness
is a free ticket for the person who wronged you to do the
same thing again. Tara has set limits that she expects
Willow to respect.
[> [>
Dont we all like positive reinforcement? -- neaux,
04:47:54 05/02/02 Thu
great points Relativegirl.
I would just like to add that Positive Reinforcements can
work wonders. Who is to say that Tara can't monitor Willow's
progress with Kissies and smoochies??
I believe Willow has reached the point in her recovery
where this step can actually be taken. Showing up (not at
the Summer's door) but at Willow's Bedroom door should be a
big Lightbulb click in Willow's head that addiction bad..
magic free is good. Sexy friendly visitors also good. Its up
to Willow to do the math of pluses and minuses.
[>
Do not agree with you! (spoilers for Entropy) --
Robert, 07:41:27 05/02/02 Thu
>> "No apology from Willow on how she screwed up and
manipulated her lover so things could always be happy
instead of facing the truth of Tara's views on the use of
magic. Is it now good enough that Willow's magic-free, and
what does that mean for the break-up? That it was never
Willow's fault, because the nasty magic made her do it?
"
I believe you misread the situation.
Tara did not leave Willow as punishment. She left Willow
for the sake of her own survival and to remove herself from
the position of co-dependency. As others have said in the
postings above, mere words could never sufficiently make
amends for what Willow did to Tara. However, Tara never
stopped loving Willow. The fact that Willow has made the
effort to "dry up" is evidence that she still loves Tara.
The apology is more strongly stated by Willows actions and
commitment to staying magic-free, than if she had merely
said she was sorry.
[>
Re: Don't shoot me, but... (spoilers for Entropy and
beyond) -- maddog, 08:19:33 05/02/02 Thu
The apologies were made long ago...Tara just wasn't ready to
accept them at the time. I was happy, but surprised they
let them get back together so quickly but knowing what I
know about next week and what should be the fate of Tara I
suppose they were running out of time. It'll make Willow
even more upset...she had her chance at redemption with Tara
and now she's gone. Big time anger there.
[> [>
It does say 'Spoilers for beyond' here, but to make
extra plain-- **SEEING RED* SPOILERS ABOVE!!* -- OnM,
16:51:19 05/02/02 Thu
Current
board
| More May 2002