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Character X-comparison (rambling mostly) *slight D or N spoilers* -- Doriander, 14:16:07 04/29/02 Mon

I'm indulging in AtS S2 to assuage my disappointment in Double or Nothing, while waiting for the next ep. Started seeing funny parallels between characters that are the reverse of each other.

1. Gunn and Riley

Forrest to Buffy: "Riley had a career. And a future till he met you. And, yeah, I got a problem with that." (Yoko Factor)

Gunn: "I don't have a future." (Double or Nothing)

Urban LA vs. “Smallville” Iowa. On first impression, stereotypical gangster vs. stereotypical clean- cut TA. Before joining up with AI/Scoobies, both belonged to groups of which they were leaders. Both had essentially the noblest intent in doing their jobs. The difference is Gunn is clear on what motivates his group, while Riley had no clue. While Gunn's group has a noble cause behind the suspect hoodlum facade, the Initiative had a suspect motive behind a reliable military front. Gunn learned early on to be self-reliant, took it upon himself to keep his neighborhood safe. He initiated his own watchdog gang, implying they can't truly rely on the authorities. They had to be resourceful, creative when it comes to weaponry (hubcap ax). Riley, meanwhile, has the full backup of the government. He’s the Initiative’s golden boy. We learn he had been dependent on the Initiative for his housing, his training, his borrowed strength, and his high- tech thousand-dollar gizmos. Gunn’s weakness is at times he’s too self-reliant and refuses outside help (War zone, First Impression), Riley’s is that he believed too much in the Initiative, never asked questions. Riley saw a promising future when he joined the Initiative, Gunn didn’t even think he had one when he sold his soul for a truck. Their perspectives changed upon meeting Angel/Buffy. Both had to defer leadership upon joining AI/Scoobies, and had issues with it. Both were torn between the old group and the current one. While Riley found himself caught in rut, his prospects crushed in pursuing his relationship with Buffy, Gunn found something to live for in his relationship with Fred. Riley left and is better for it, Gunn stayed, what become of him and Fred remains to be seen.


2. Lindsey and Spike

I've always thought these two are alike. What cinched it for me was that scene in "Epiphany," when Lindsey started beating up on Angel. Replace hammer with a crowbar, open road with mansion, truck with wheelchair, and Lindsey with Spike. Déjà vu. Poor Angel, a common enemy/rival who remains unseated in the hearts of the women they love. Pity that he used to be Spike's yoda, and was almost yoda to Lindsey's almost redemptive path.

Lawyer vs. vampire. Dirt-poor tough kid (pre-W&H) vs. effete Victorian gentleman (pre-vamp). Lindsey embraced the law and its many loopholes, embraced his climb up the social ladder. Spike embraced anarchy, embraced his freedom from society's constrictions. Both reveled in their newfound power and became worse tormentors/bullies than those that stepped on them and mocked them. Common weakness: a woman. Human in love with a vampire vs. vampire in love with a human ("and a slayer no less, how's that for perversion?" the irony.), therewith they compromise their loyalties (W&H and Dru). Both allowed themselves to be used. When at the end of their "bleeding tethers," both shed their adopted persona: corporate Lindsey dons his tough kid garb and truck, and Big Bad Spike reverts to William.

3. Xander and Wesley

The two characters, after Buffy, that got a taste of Faith's kinks. Self-proclaimed bohemian vs. academician. Xander held many odd jobs, while Wesley knew only one. (Sigh) Daddy issues. Xander's dad is an abusive drunk who's there but never really there. Wesley's on the other hand, is strict and uptight, a hovering presence even when in a different continent. One craves guidance, while the other craves approval. Xander's dad sees him as one who shouldn't even bother trying, while Wesley's sees him as one who never tries enough. Both have low self-esteem as a result. Both loyal, and when circumstances call for it, reveal that leadership streak, hidden beneath all that butt- monkeydom.

4. Darla and Dawn

Evil vs. innocent. Devastated by memories of her evil deeds vs. devastated by fake memories of her fake life. Both newbie humans. Both resorted to cutting themselves. Both questioned who they are, what they are. Both found kindred in vamps. And speaking of peeves (see thread below), their voices occasionally annoy me.

5. Kate and Ben

Kate: "You people have no idea what's going on in this city."
LAPD panel: "Is this the part where you start to talk about monsters? (Kate doesn't answer) We'll need your gun and your badge." (Reprise)

BEN: (surprised) I haven't been here... (resigned) I haven't been here in two weeks. (hopefully) There's an explanation for this. Which ... I ... can't exactly give you. I - can I just tell you it's not my fault?
DOCTOR: (nods) Sure. You can also tell me that the dog ate your homework, or maybe eating Twinkies made you do it, or ... maybe yeah, that there's really a wicked demonic creature living inside you that takes control of your body and forces you to do its bidding. (sighs) Take responsibility for your actions, Ben!
BEN: I ... this ... (angrily) you know, forget it. Just forget it. (Tough Love)

Kate starts out oblivious of supernatural beings while Ben sets out life sharing his body with one. We discover how both of them, more or less, lived in denial. Kate turned a blind eye on things she can’t explain by omitting some details on her report, e.g. bite marks. Ben similarly tried to contain Glory by taking drugs, thinking, like Buffy, that he can have a normal existence. Both just want to do their jobs, excel in them. Both played the role of an ally and potential love interest to Angel/Buffy before finding out he/she is a vamp/slayer. Upon their respective discoveries, their motives towards Angel/Buffy become suspect. Kate found a target for her bitterness in Angel, and involved herself in the war bet. him and W&H. Ben on the other hand, refused any involvement in Glory's plans, demanding that they leave him out of it. Both caught in the middle. They inadvertently compromised their jobs, their competence called into question, and both found it futile to explain their reasons. Both got fired. Helpless Kate attempted suicide, helpless Ben considered offing Dawn himself. In the end both stopped resisting. Kate let go of her bitterness towards Angel, admitted he did trust him. Ben gave in to Glory, when left to choose between his life and Dawn's.

6. Cordelia and Willow

In high-school, it’s Queen C vs. Captain of the Nerd Squad. Commence two separate shows. Post-HS: one learns humility, the other learns hubris. By S2 and S5, it’s vision-girl vs. powerful witch. Migraine vs. ecstacy with occasional nosebleeds. Early this season, it’s saint vs. bitca. Vision girl learned to empathize, learned pain, started to embrace her gift, suffered and nearly died from it. Offered a choice between her dream and her mission, she chose to be part-demon, passed up her alternate life as Cordy, the star (as well as Cordy ruler of Pylea), seeing as people especially Angel will suffer should she give it up. Willow meanwhile learned power, learned the short cuts, became the big gun of team Scooby. By S6, she started relying heavily on it, got high on it. Decides to give up being Super Willow seeing as she started abusing magic and people she loves are now suffering from its consequences. Current status: Ex-bitch vs. ex-witch; Champion Cordy vs. normal Willow.

Any other parallels come to mind?
[> Wow. You're my new best friend. -- Apophis, 14:37:16 04/29/02 Mon

[> Yup. Mine too! -- lachesis, 14:50:01 04/29/02 Mon

[> How about Groo and Anya? -- Cactus Watcher, 16:50:39 04/29/02 Mon

Groo was described before we met him as a monster, but he turns out to be human. Anya was a monster when we met her, but learned to be human. Both have trouble with speaking English too precisely. Neither quite understands the conventions of this world. Both slipped into a love affair with one of the regulars, when at first it seemed most unlikely. Anya had given Xander a largely unromantic invitation to have sex. Cordy had been told that she was required to have sex with the 'monster' who turned out to be Groo.
[> [> Hee! -- Doriander, 19:21:22 04/29/02 Mon

[> Re: Character X-comparison (rambling mostly) *slight D or N spoilers* -- lele, 17:28:18 04/29/02 Mon

sorta newbie here, but loved your comparisons. i never would have come up with most of the pairings, but they make perfect sense
[> How about Giles and Lorne? -- Aquitaine, 18:52:10 04/29/02 Mon

Both cranky about being asked to do things they don't want to do and both fond of 'le drink'.

I like the parallels you've drawn. Making notes...

-Aquitaine
[> [> Also... -- Doriander, 19:54:14 04/29/02 Mon

boy, can those two sing! And both their meccas (Caritas and library) got blown to smithereens.
[> That was quite a brainstorm -- lulabel, 20:14:00 04/29/02 Mon

These are really great comparisons. I think a better description for what you've outlined here would be "anti-parallels" since these pairings are so perfectly matched in opposition.

So it begs the obvious question - are Buffy and Angel meant to be anti-parallel? One descends while the other ascends? One grows up and finds her way while the other strives to regain his innocence?

As far as pairing up Lorne, I'd like to see him matched with Tara. They fulfill a similar role in their respective groups: they are the voice of reason, they are the ones so adept at "reading" others, they provide guidance and reassurance. They both left oppressive homes to find fulfillment and happiness. They are also opposites in many ways - Lorne is a demon from another dimension, Tara used to believe she was a demon, and comes from the heartland. Lorne is vivacious, self-confident and loves dressing in colors not found in nature. Tara is shy, not too confident and has got the whole Mother Earth dress-sense.
[> [> Re: That was quite a brainstorm -- Doriander, 21:46:40 04/29/02 Mon

I like your comparison of Tara and Lorne.


As for Buffy and Angel, oh well. I've always wondered whether Buffy had been out of the higher power's radar for sometime now, say 5 years. I believe there's thread from weeks ago started by Masq on the inequity of the PTB's presence in BtVS and Angel. The last time she was significant in the prophecies was in S1. I read snippets from a compilation of Buffy essays and came upon one author's theory, that Buffy was meant to die, really die the first time. This accounts for Whistler's:"We didn't see you coming." The Powers really did intend for Angel to stop Acathla, but Buffy got in the way.

So what do we make of this. Angel, once scourge of Europe, now atoning for his sins, has a direct link to the powers. He plays a role in the apocalypse/s, he's mentioned on two prophecies we know of, he was rewarded with a son, rewarded for an act in which he knowingly risked his soul. He went to hell, brought back by the powers presumably. Attempted suicide, saved by the snow. He's too damn important that W&H has a whole room of records devoted to him.

Whereas Buffy, our supposed virtuous warrior of the people, is left to figure things on her own, good thing she has friends. She had to hassle info about Glory from the Council. Until now we don't know the source of her power. The only time we saw that she mattered to some powers was during her vision quest. Otherwise they're not really present in her life, are they? At least not in the same way they are with Angel. She died, finally found peace in heaven, and pulled out by friends. She attempted an easy death, facing off with Sweet. And what saves her? Not a miracle, but a VAMPIRE! So after her first death, I wonder if the powers have somewhat dismissed her.

Angel was sucked into hell, to stop Armageddon which Angelus initiated. He was brought back, and slowly found a reason to live, a mission, and he will be rewarded. Buffy died and rewarded with heavenly bliss, brought back, struggles to find affirming reasons to live. My heart really goes out for her. Angel as well, his far too important role is as much a curse as blessing. So we have one who is pampered, for lack of a better word, by the powers, one seemingly neglected. Who's more blessed?
In Defense of Shippers (Controversy Not Intended) -- Ixchel, 20:10:31 04/29/02 Mon

Why am I defending shippers? Because, I suppose, I am one. I do want to specify that I'm not condoning rude, obnoxious, belligerent behavior by shippers (the absence of this kind of thing is one of the, many, pleasing aspects of this board). Also, I don't wish to imply that I believe all shippers behave this way (clearly they don't). That said, I should say that, JMHO, if a person only focuses on one aspect of the show (whatever it is), I feel he/she is cheating him/herself. OTOH, I do believe that the audience is meant to be somewhat invested in the romantic relationships (as with the other relationships) on the show. There seems to be a great deal of effort directed at causing an emotional reaction in the audience to this aspect.

I didn't even know that there was such a thing as a shipper until last year (I hadn't looked at boards, etc. before, except for a brief moment of panic after TG), but I realize that I must have been one all along (I began watching the latter part of S2).

I loved Xander and Cordelia together. They were witty, charming, adorable and just fun. This is well illustrated (IMHO) in the fishstick scene in Becoming 1 (among many others). I believe there was real feeling between them (BBB, GF) and I was distressed when they broke up. I confess I had hope for them until I heard about AtS (which I was thrilled about). That said, I love Xander and Anya now (well not this very minute, of course), for similar reasons. One of my favorite scenes is the argument in Giles' apartment in Hush, followed up with the later speechless scene. IMHO, there is real feeling between them (ITW, TG) and I'm upset about their break up. I even (foolishly?) have hope for them.

I adored Willow and Oz. They were sweet, gentle and romantic. One of my favorite scenes is the hospital scene from Becoming 2 (again, among many others). I believe their feelings were genuine (Phases, GD), and I was saddened about their break up. I had some hope for them, but NMR ended that in a good way (IMHO). That said, I love Willow and Tara now, actually for similar reasons (Oz and Tara have similarities like BtVSCordelia and Anya do). Tara's room scene in TYF is one of my favorites (there are many). Again, IMHO there is genuine feeling in the relationship (NMR, Family). I was horrified at Willow's actions in ATW, but (in spite of this) I'm cautiously pleased that they seem to be reconciling.

I really loved Buffy and Angel together. They had their difficult, heartrending, operatic passion that drew me in. One of my favorites (of _many_) is Becoming 2, of course (masochistic of me, I suppose). IMHO, their feelings were real (Surprise, LW), and I was greatly dismayed at their break up (though, again, thrilled about AtS). This is the relationship I held onto the longest (crossovers and all seemed to facilitate this). I suppose I started to let go at IWRY, more so with TYF and I realized that Forever was closure on their story for me (like NMR was for Willow and Oz). Regarding Buffy and Riley, I was indifferent to this relationship and to him (no offense meant to people who enjoyed his character), it just never engaged me (possibly because of Angel, but I don't believe that's the only reason). I will now admit that I like Buffy and Spike together (mostly when they're being civil to each other, a rare circumstance now, I know). Even at their worst, though, they are fascinating and compelling, IMHO. I have to say, though I always adored the character of Spike (evil, not-so-evil) and I always thought Buffy and Spike were engaging in their interactions, it never crossed my mind before S5 that they would be paired romantically. For example, I thought SB was hysterical, and that Buffy and Spike were more interesting than Buffy and Riley, but I didn't think anything else of it. A breakdown of my reactions to S5 would follow as such: OOMM - surprise and then a realization that it made a weird sort of sense, FFL - he might genuinely care about her, Intervention - he really does love her, and TG - he may (someday?) be worthy of her. AL "made me believe" in the possibility of a relationship for them. However, I was _relieved_ when they broke up. I'm afraid to have hope for them, but I seem to have it anyway.

To conclude, I enjoy all the present (non?) relationships. I'm not one to shift blame (or at least, I don't like to think of myself as one who does), but I have to say I do feel that all the relationships (past and present) have facets that would draw people to support them. So I think I can say with some honesty (and a little good humor?) that ME made me a shipper. It's not my fault, really. _Really_.

Ixchel
[> Re: I"Their feelings were real, IMHO, and I was saddened when they broke up" -- leslie, 20:31:25 04/29/02 Mon

I do not intend to be at all mocking here, but reading your post, this phrase (in variants) just kept coming up again and again and again. And I think that's the point, really, of the relationships on BtVS--they may be screwed up, but they are real, and they always end painfully, for both character and audience. I have to say I never really understood the Angel thing, and watching the episode where he breaks up with Buffy on FX this evening, I felt, as I always feel when I see it, "what an incredible weasel--he's breaking up with her because her MOM told him to?" But I still felt pained because Buffy felt pained. Ditto Riley. (And just tangentially, I find it rather amusing that with my erratic typing skills, I really cannot type the name "Buffy" without it first coming out "Buddy" or "Buggy." Why can't I hit that F??)

In any case, I think its a testament to the writing and plotting skills of ME that regardless of one's feelings about a character, or even the appropriateness or healthiness of the relationship, we always believe that their feelings are genuine and we are saddened when they break up.
[> [> Re: Mom -- verdantheart, 09:52:40 04/30/02 Tue

I always felt that Joyce was just telling Angel what he already knew and that his decision had really already been made. He just needed to pull together the gumption to actually do what he had been contemplating for some time.
[> [> [> Re: Mom -- leslie, 11:04:38 04/30/02 Tue

To a certain extent. However, it also seems that he just didn't have the guts to stand up to external criticism of their relationship. I don't know, it really infuriates me when they get into this whole "Buffy needs a NORMAL relationship" thing. I have to say I'm with Cordy on this one: she's a freak, and her best boyfriends are also freaks. For crying out loud, the "normal" relationship that will make you happy is what is normal *for you,* and if you do not conform to society's definition of normal, then the person you're going to be happy with is going to be similarly unconventional.

I also think that this whole "it will never work because she's a human and he's a vampire" (he's a human and she's a demon, she's a human and he's a werewolf, ad infinitum) can only be taken so far, and then it just becomes a cop-out. I mean, in the real world, there's no guarantee it's going to work out even if you're both human--the only way you know it's going to work out is if you TRY. Saying "well it just isn't normal" means you don't have to make the effort to see if it can work out. That's the real reason I think Angel is a weasel. 250 years, he's had a chance to get some kind of a clue.
[> [> I agree, the people at ME are brilliant. Sadistic too, but brilliant. -- Ixchel, 14:56:08 04/30/02 Tue

I know, poor writing on my part (the repetitiveness). I should have worked on it quite a bit more before posting.

They are very good at pain at ME. This coupled with the fact that I have some hope for the relationships (against all better judgment, with prior knowledge of the history of the show, etc.) worries me. You'd think I'd have learned by now.

I can understand being indifferent to Buffy/Angel (having been indifferent to Buffy/Riley). As you said, I still felt sympathy for Buffy. Good point about The Prom, but it seems (to me) that many times on the show the reasons given for someone leaving are a little weak.

(Regarding weird typing tendencies, I always type Anya or Angel as ANya or ANgel first, then have to correct myself. I've actually noticed that other people seem to have this shift-key release problem also.)

Thanks for your comments.

Ixchel
[> In Offense of a few Shippers(Semi-Long and rambling...) -- Marrec, 21:04:15 04/29/02 Mon

I, as Ixchel was, do not intend to be controversial or by any means insult any groups of people... that said, I do feel that some Ships take the many faceted relationships shown in BtVS and... make em weird. The first Ship I'll be talking about is the ever popular Spuffy.(Spike+Buffy)

While I myself have sworn membership of this diverse field of shippers, I feel that the Spuffy relationship is unhealthy for both of them and they should probably split up, move to different cities, changes their names, and never speak to each other again. It'd help both of them oh so much. Because(As I'm sure has been discussed on this wonderful board before) Buffy is using Spike and visa versa. Spike, who is a man(Yes, Man) driven by love for another, constantly tries to fit into what he thinks Buffy would consider the 'Ideal Mate'. Which probably isn't Buffy's idea of what she wants in a man, and honestly, doesn't help Spike grow into his Chipage much. If he were to live alone at some point, with these new feelings for Rightousness, maybe he would find his own Ethics and not have to use Buffy's... or maybe he'd find some devious ways to kill people. Either way, it'd give Spike a direction and motivation... somethings he lacks it. Now, we look at how Buffy is affected by the relationship.

(Please excuse my chaotic and often misspelled writting, it's rather late here)

Buffy finds in Spike not the man she always wanted, but the man who will stay with her. Because she knows that Spike is completely obsessed and will never give up on showing his affection, it makes Buffy feel real special and secure in the fact that whenever she needs a good shag or a piece of advice, her tool will always be there. And that's just what Spike is to Buffy, her play-thing that will never break. So what if he might actually have feelings... he's a dirty evil vampire and she doesn't really care. That black and white out-look on life that she has shown many times throughout the series hurts not only her, but those that look up to her. (Xander, Spike) Buffy thinks Spike is evil, Spike acts evil whenever he can get away with it, yet still please Buffy... fun fun. Many more facets to this relationship, but I think that it's bad for both of them and should end soon.

Next, the Xanya relationship(Xander+Anya)
Lookie, another completely unhealthy relationship that will end up in disater no matter how they try to make it work. But, that's Xander for you. He always goes for the unreachable in the field of women. (Cheating on Cordy, virtually stalking Buffy through season 1 and 2) Demons must have seemed like a new fronter for the youth. Alright, I'm probably being a bit harsh on him but thats the gist of his taste in women. Anya is no differnt, only in that she also wanted him.

There is an interesting thought... why the hell did Anya go after Xander? She was fairly popular and hot enough to go with other guys. Was Xander just the only guy left? But, in the episode immediatly following their first date(Graduation 1) she shows a lot of concern for him. Maybe she just wanted a piece of action, being on the sidelines for as long as she was probably pent up HUGE amounts of sexual frustration. So she went after the first piece of meat she saw... Alexander Harris. That in itself is just the wrong base of a relationship, but then Xander turns around and goes for Anya for the same thing. He only develops real feelings for her long after their relationship starts. We know that Anya has feelings for Xander(Maybe) or what she thinks are feelings, but she expresses them is odd ways and Xander feels that he must step in an 'correct' her. Relationship isn't as bad as the Spuffy one, but isn't the best we've seen either.

Third on my list of most messed up Relationships... Buffy and Riley. Wait, looks like we have a tie. Buffy and Angel take this slot as well. I'm not even going to start on the train-wreck that was Riley and Buffy... mostly because knocking all those Riley shippers out there would put me above my weekly fun ration. Also because the Buffy/Angel relationship is more intersting. But, because we all know why they broke up, I'll make my reasons short and sweet.

Angel was way too broody, sure he killed a lot of people and feels bad, but someone like that isn't for Buffy.
Angel was immortal(Can also be substituted with the Spuffy ship) and would watch Buffy die... *more than once actually*
Angel figured he knew what was best for Buffy and really didn't want her opinion... ever.
Oh, and the whole fact that she actually loved a vampire would screw it all to hell.
Buffy killed Angel, puts a damper on love life.
Angel tried to kill Buffy, though she might of actually liked it... *blink*
Angel can lose his soul at any time... (Spells do it, halmark moments do it, and good old fashion shags do it)
Those are the big reason that stick out in my head.

And who gets the best Relationship ever award? (I know, I skipped a lot, so sue me.)

The suspense...

Willow and Tara!
That's right all you lucky Shippers out there, I've calculated the quandries and tallied the votes. Our favorite pair of Witches tops my list... Do I really have to say why these two work together so well? (The only friction they have is Willows thirst for power, while thats a huge road bump, it's not big compaired to others) One, hey, they are both lesbians. That makes them compatible. Two, they like the same things. (Toads, and various spices, and I'm not talking cooking) Also, they are so cute together! (The fact I'm a teenage male has nothing to do with the fact I think they are cute... so get your head out of the gutter)

Ships are all fun and good. (I personally love the Spike+His crypt door ship) But there are some that just don't work out, and never will. And unless you are part of the Willow+Tara ship, you really need to analyze whats going on with your favorite shag buddies and ask yourself 'Do I really want to back this Train Wreck?'
Thats what I did with the Spuffy ship, and since I usually like Train Wrecks(My thoughts go out to the victems of the most recent one, sad events in a sad time) I decided that it was the ship for me.

A word in closing, if you aren't part of a ship, become one! It's great fun, and you can argue a lot with other shippers. Also, don't drink and drive trains, it's just plain stupid.
[> [> Re: In Offense of a few Shippers(Semi-Long and rambling...) -- Nos, 21:30:39 04/29/02 Mon

I agree with almost everything you said. But, really thinks that B/S can work it out. Emotional wise, things such as the Crypt Door scene, and the Hells Bells one, make me a believer.

Willow and Tara are a beautiful relationship. I always got tender feelings for their shippy moments. Wonderful post.
[> Re: In Defense of Shippers (Controversy Not Intended) -- lachesis, 04:00:53 04/30/02 Tue

Thanks Ixchel. I think I understand the whole shipper thing a bit better now. Have to confess to being a little too accepting to actually be one, although I agree that the relationships are emotionally affecting, and that a lot of effort goes into making them so.

With you on Buffy/Spike too. It really hadn't occurred to me until S5. And I so loved 'Oh god, no! Please, no!' at the end of OOMH. Set the tone, that did! Now I find the relationship fascinating, because it has such potential to be either terribly instructive for both characters, or horribly destructive.

Plus, the uncertainty of it all, the impossiblity of predicting where it might go, or even should go, seems to me quite an effective way for the writers to pull the viewers into the basic uncertainties, dilemmas and confusions afflicting the characters this season. Makes me think of a classic line from FFL - 'You're not ready to know!'

And in general, I like the fact that we get drawn into the emotional relationships, and see their strengths and genuine feeling, but alongside the problems and traumas. I like that love isn't puppies & kittens & hearts & flowers. I like the way that it is so often love, rather than danger or fear, that brings out the flaws in the characters, and forces them to face up to them. Perfect relationships, like perfect characters, are easier to portray, easier to watch. But so much less interesting! Thanks for making me think about this :)
[> Totally agree... -- Wynn, 08:04:45 04/30/02 Tue

I loved Xander & Cordelia as much as I love Xander & Anya now. The same applies to Willow & Oz and Willow & Tara, as well as Buffy & Angel and Buffy & Spike. I'm the sort of 'shipper that gets drawn in emotionally to the story; I feel sad when a 'ship ends, I feel happy when two characters come together, etc. I want certain characters to end up together (Buffy and Spike, for example), but if ME decides that's not the route to go (and can convince me through their excellent writing), I won't go postal and vow never to watch the BtVS again. I enjoy the 'ships; I'm not consumed by the 'ships.
[> [> Re: Totally agree... -- clg0107, 08:46:07 04/30/02 Tue

>>I enjoy the 'ships; I'm not consumed by the 'ships.

Can I get an "Amen" here??!! Wynn, you and I must be cut of the same cloth on this issue. The relationships are well written and well acted, which makes them compelling, and we get sucked in. But those same traits (great writing and acting) mean that when the story turns, and the relationship goes away, we can enjoy whatever comes next.

Although, I will admit that in watching season 2 on Fox's Saturday programming, I have discovered that I really like Oz, and it makes me sorry after-the-fact that he went away.

~clg0107
[> [> Re: Totally agree... -- clg0107, 08:51:18 04/30/02 Tue

>>I enjoy the 'ships; I'm not consumed by the 'ships.

Can I get an "Amen" here??!! Wynn, you and I must be cut of the same cloth on this issue. The relationships are well written and well acted, which makes them compelling, and we get sucked in. But those same traits (great writing and acting) mean that when the story turns, and the relationship goes away, we can enjoy whatever comes next.

Although, I will admit that in watching season 2 on Fox's Saturday programming, I have discovered that I really like Oz, and it makes me sorry after-the-fact that he went away.

~clg0107
Why the Angel gang need a kick to the assi..asses.....whatever Cordy said...spoilers for "The Price" -- Rufus, 03:44:59 04/30/02 Tue

Tonights episode attempted to bring home the point that everything we do has a price. Angel found out the price of his spell.....which was becoming a Slug Hotel...."we have a Pool???" The main thing that got to me was the fact that no one was listening or paying much attention to what was going on until they had a physical manifestation to deal with. The slugs weren't as big a problem as the lack of communication going on between everyone. Fred was the one who understood that Wesley was the pro when it came to the arcane. Fred's power is in numbers, building things...Wesley is the one who understands the background of just about everything they deal with. He speaks the lingo of many a demon, and he does have people skills the others lack. There is no business at Angel Investigations because the man who does the work that gets clients is gone.

Now to Wesley...he needs a swift kick as well. Being able to speak has left him more closed off than if he had remained mute. If he wants them to know his side of the story, then find someone to tell it to already. But I can see that there may be a chance that Lilah may want to get Angel and Wesley killing each other to garner a more secure position at Wolfram and Hart. Being that he is so filled with resentment for being deserted by his friends, Wesley may just end up waxing Lilahs desk sooner or later, leaving Gavin Park more time to sharpen his knife collection. A thought about Lilah...can a man ever feel entirely at home with a woman who has a tarantula as a typist?

Angel, well....he seems to be at least starting to get on with it, as long as no one mentiones the "W" word....of course setting up that whole Karma biting in the ass scenario. I guess he has many lessons to learn before he gets the living in the world thing right.

Now to Cordy.....what the hell was that? What exact demon power does she have? She was like the ultimate Bug Zapper tonight...she would also make a good shop light as well, too bad we don't know where the on/off switch is.

I liked this episode for the bit of fun we had before someone gets their heart ripped out or something. Angel got to see his son, who skipped right to the emerging hormone stage, they never got a chance to play a little ball (again new use for Cordy's stadium night-light).

I'm left with the uneasy feeling that we will be left with a tragedy caused by all the misunderstandings or lack of communication that has been going on. I see it happen in real life enough, I guess we can't expect Angel and crew to be any quicker than we are at solving our life problems.
[> Dont forget... -- neaux, 04:41:55 04/30/02 Tue

to mention.. the distance that could be forming between GROO and Cordy. I have full sympathy for GROO. Dammit!! I dont know how the writers do it.. but they have made GROO a loving character?!?

Heck I fell for it hook line and sinker. If I didnt think so before, I now think GROO is very very COO. (I mean Cool).

Also.. could somebody tell me why the slugs were a clear ripoff of the aliens from THE FACULTY. Was that an homage to Robert Rodriguez??

And what is with all of the framing of the characters??

Such as in the beginning with the first victim being decapitated from the head up by the camera. Of course, he did lose his head later in the show.

But I would like to understand the framing of FRED in the Office. Angel and Gunn (if I remember correctly) were framed by the hallway. Were these frames used as foreshadowing techniques??
[> [> Re: Frames -- CW, 07:05:39 04/30/02 Tue

There is also that blatant framing of Angel sitting in the office with Fred and Gunn standing on either side. Someone have a theory?
[> [> [> If everyone was framed, then who was responsible for the deed? ;) -- LittleBit, 08:26:03 04/30/02 Tue

[> Re: Why the Angel gang need a kick...spoilers for "The Price" -- CW, 07:00:14 04/30/02 Tue

I think ME needs to define Cordy's new powers and quickly. What's the point of calling the show 'Angel' if someone else is the mighter warrior for good. The way things are heading, she's going to turn into the 'Archangel' Cordelia.
[> Great observations (The Price spoilers) -- matching mole, 09:06:13 04/30/02 Tue

I really liked this episode - the best since Sleep Tight in my opinion. Aside from Cordelia refusing to consider talking to Wesley which I think is out of character I don't feel the need to complain about anything. Cordelia's power seems unpredictable and uncontrolled which makes it interesting. I would actually hope that it doesn't get explained in too much detail anytime soon. Her lack of self- awareness about the artificiality of dividing her life into work and other components was also a really nice touch.

I also really liked the Gavin/Lilah conversations - Lilah is becoming a really magnificent character - a classic noir figure if there ever was one. Humanity and inhumanity seem to coexist so well within her.

And for I while early in the episode I thought that my facetious prediction from last week had come true. That the bandana sporting Cordelia had actually gone bald!
Anya,Spike, Angel and theme of vengeance (long! minor spoilers of The Price & Entropy promo) -- shadowkat, 05:25:33 04/30/02 Tue

Anya, Spike, Angel and the Theme of Vengeance

*Quotes from Psyche Transcripts. Inspiration? Horrible work day and all those Anti-Anya/Anti-Spike posts that pissed me off.

This was written yesterday. There are minor spoilers from the promo for Entropy and from last night’s Angel episode, The Price, as well as a few from Forgiving and Sleep Tight from Angel and up to Hell’s Bells from Btvs. I have stayed away from the wild feeds, so this should be a safe spoiler free post. Please respect those of us who have decided not to read them and do not include unseen spoilers in your responses.


********************************************************************

(Feeling very vengeful today so I thought I’d blow off some steam and write an essay on vengeance and how we all seek it, we all do it, and until we stop, we’re doomed.)

“I think this is going to be a very big year for vengeance.”(Anya to Xander in Xander’s Restless dream, Season 4 Btvs.)

Truer words were never spoken, particularly for 2001 and 2002 and specifically in my life. Been thinking a lot about vengeance lately. Today in particular, because I am royally pissed at my boss and feeling very tense about life in general. Without going into graphic details, let’s just say not only do I live in NYC, but my boss in every respect imaginable is the boss in the Dilbert comic strip. Also really begging here – if you know of any job opportunities in writing, contracts, or copyright permissions, please email me! If I report to this guy much longer, I may turn into a vengeance demon, although I must say writing these essays have helped. That’s right – you have my evil boss to thank for all my essays.

But enough about me – vengeance is an apt and recurring theme in Btvs. Apt because as much as we hate to admit it, we live in a vengeful society. A vengeful, unforgiving, judgmental and often self- righteous society. If you don’t believe me just turn on the nightly news or CNN or Crossfire –and there it is in living color. We as a society don’t appear to know how to forgive others or ourselves. And until we figure it out, we’re doomed.

Here’s three wonderful quotes about forgiveness, not from Btvs, from the Bible (forgive me for getting religious on you, but they seemed appropriate):

“Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” Jesus while he’s on the cross about to die.

“Whoever amongst you who has not sinned, can throw the first stone.” Jesus to the mob stoning Mary Magdalene

“Turn the other cheek.” Jesus in the Bible

Here’s a few from Btvs:

“You're weak. Everybody is. Everybody fails.” (Buffy forgiving Angel in Amends, Season 3 Btvs).

“Not a vengeance hobby, no! It's dangerous. People can't do anything they want. Society has rules, and borders, and an end zone. It doesn't matter if-“ (Xander explaining to Anya why vengeance is bad in Restless)

“Maybe the way to start forgiving yourself is by starting to forgive him.” (Lorne to Angel regarding Wesley after Wesley kidnapped Angel’s son to protect him from Angel. Forgiving. Season 3 Ats)

“Vengeance is never sated, buffy. Hatred is a cycle.” (Giles in Pangs Season 4 Btvs)

The most forgiving character in the Buffyverse is Buffy. That is why she remains my hero. This girl can forgive a soulless demon, who has tried repeatedly to kill her, long enough to let him help her save the Universe (see Intervention – The Gift Season 5 Btvs.) I think it is safe to say that this twenty-one year old girl has a greater capacity for forgiveness than most of the audience watching her. And that people, is ironic. She certainly has a greater capacity for it than her friends, neither Xander nor Willow have a clue how to forgive themselves or anyone else who hurts them – they hurt back. (See Something Blue and Wild at Heart for Willow, Bewitched Bothered & Bewildered for Xander) That’s the easy path – to hurt back. Believe me, I know. But it never ever solves anything, as we are about to find out on both Angel and Btvs again this year.

Angel is ahead of the game. In Angel, we’ve been introduced to a righteous vampire hunter from the 12th century who has traveled through time to avenge himself on Angel, who massacred his entire family. The character of Holtz reminds me a great deal of John Wayne’s character Ethan in the old John Ford film the Searchers. In this film, the demons are the Apache (native Americans) who have massacred Ethan’s family and taken his niece. With his nephew, Ethan goes on a quest, a long five- year quest, to find the girl and kill her Apache captors. By the end of the movie, you can no longer tell the difference between Ethan and the Apaches’ he hates. Vengeance has consumed him. When he reaches the girl, played by a young Natalie Wood, he has decided to kill her, because she has become tainted by the Apache and in his mind is no longer human. He has demonized her. If I remember the ending, it has been awhile since I’ve seen the film, his nephew prevents Ethan from killing her. Ethan’s crusade did not resurrect any of his loved ones all it did was consume him, make him worse than the enemy he hated. The same thing has happened to Holtz in Angel this year, a once righteous man has become as evil as the demons he hunts. Perhaps more so. This year we’ve seen him sell his soul to a demon, burn down Lorne’s club, coerce Justine into slashing Wesley’s throat, and take Angel’s child into a hell dimension.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer has dealt with the theme of vengeance repeatedly over the years. As far back as Season 2, Passion – Giles tries to kill Angelus because of Jenny’s death (Angelus had just murdered Jenny and left her in Giles bed as a gift.) Xander of course is completely behind Giles’ actions: “And if Giles wants to go after the, uh, (looks up at Buffy) fiend that murdered his girlfriend, I say, 'Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!'” But our heroine, she of calm head, is worried and goes off to save Giles. As she wisely states: “There's only one thing wrong with Giles' little revenge scenario. It's gonna get him killed.” She’s said this repeatedly over the years – the most recent to Willow in Tough Love. Willow also ignores her and goes after Glory with black magic, an act that may have taken Willow down a road she wouldn’t have traveled otherwise. As Cordy states in The Price, things we do in the past, particularly dark magic for purposes of revenge, have a tendency to come back and bite us. It turns out she’s right, the evil lawyers who populate Ats, are gleefully rubbing their hands over Angel’s recent foray into darkness to seek vengeance on those who hurt his son. There’s an old Wiccan saying – the evil you send out comes back to you three fold, doesn’t really matter whether it’s justified.

Let’s stop briefly to catch our breaths, having some trouble doing that today, feeling very vengeful, and reexamine the difference between self-defense and vengeance. If someone is plotting your demise – then yes, you ought to take action to stop them. Example – the US’s current campaign against terrorism or Buffy’s slaying of demons. But if someone did something to hurt you and it was not to destroy you or they weren’t planning your demise – example my silly boss or Wesley’s taking of Connor to protect him or Spike and Anya sleeping together, then taking action against them is not only uncalled for, but self-destructive. We have to watch how far we take vengeance or like Angel’s Holtz, it will consume us. Sometimes forgiveness is as necessary for the injured party as it is for the guilty one. Possibly more so, because believe me rage and hate can eat you up inside and suck you dry just like the parasitic slug beasts Angel’s spell inadvertently released. There is nothing harder in this world than forgiveness. I’m not sure I can ever forgive my boss for being the backstabbing bastard that he is…but we will see. Can Anya forgive Xander for being Captain Fear? Can Xander forgive Anya for becoming a vengeance demon and lashing out at him? Can Spike forgive Buffy for not returning his love? Can Buffy forgive Spike for being a vampire and lashing out at her? Do we, the audience have the right to judge fictional characters on behaviors that we ourselves could be capable of under similar situations? What’s that saying – People in Glass Houses Should Not Through Stones?? (And if you think you don’t live in a glass house, look again. I’m sure you can find a window somewhere.)

Revenge may get you killed. It could get you fired. It may possibly destroy your life. It has made a mess of our world.

When Anya was first introduced in Season 3’s the Wish – it was as a vengeance demon. She represented the pain and hurt that Cordelia felt when she found Xander and Willow smooching in the old Factory. It is ironic that Anya, who was called by Cordelia to scorn Xander, inadvertently enacts her vengeance against Xander by sleeping with Spike. Nice karma there. And Xander, nice as he is, does deserve a bit of karmic revenge. He has gone down the road of vengeance himself on occasion and has learned it never turns out well. Here’s a scene from Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered where Xander blackmails Amy into helping him conjure a nasty love spell to torment Cordelia:

Xander: (glares back) Blackmail is such an ugly word.
Amy: I didn't say blackmail.
Xander: Yeah, but I'm about to blackmail you, so I thought I'd bring it up.
Amy: (folds her arms) What do you want?
Xander: (chuckles) What do I want? I want some respect around here. I want, for *once*, to come out ahead. I want the Hellmouth to be working for me. You and me, Amy... (looks back at Cordelia sitting with Harmony now) we're gonna cast a little spell.
Amy: A love spell?
Xander: Yeah. You know, just the basic can't eat, can't sleep, can't breathe anything but little old moi. (edited for length) The point is I want her to want me. Desperately. So I can break up with *her* and subject her to the same hell she's been puttin' *me* through.
Amy: (turns and steps away) Oh, I don't know, Xander. (turns back) Intent has to be pure with love spells.
Xander: Right. I intend revenge. Pure as the driven snow. Now, are you gonna play, or do we need to have another chat about invisible homework?

And you all thought that Xander was pure as the driven snow? Please. Of course he finds out that revenge spells don’t always work out as we intend them. He gets the worst end of the stick. All the women come after him and try to tear him apart limb by limb when he doesn’t appreciate their attentions. Also he nearly devastates poor Willow who had always had a crush on him. That’s the thing about karma – it comes back and kicks you in the butt. Xander does eventually manage to break poor Cordy’s heart by stealing smoochies with Willow over the course of four episodes and finally getting caught. This round Cordelia unwittingly curses Xander and ends up signing her own death warrant. In The Wish, Anya grants Cordy’s wish that Buffy never came to Sunnydale, which creates an incredibly dark Alternate Universe where Xander and Willow are the resident Big Bads and kill Cordy. Luckily for Cordelia, Giles comes to the rescue and destroys Anya’s power center, effectively undoing the wish.

Anya knows quite a bit about vengeance. In fact both Anya and Spike do, being demons vengeance comes naturally to them – because well it causes chaos and disrupts the world and is evil. Anya felt powerful as a vengeance demon – when people hurt her or hurt others – she eviscerated them. As D’Hoffryn, her old boss states: “When you were a vengeance demon, you were powerful, at the top of your game. You crushed men like him.” (Hell’s Bells, Season 6 Btvs.) Vengeance, Anya believes is a powerful and inevitable thing. A view she and Spike agree on, in Where the Wild Things Are (Season 4, Btvs.):

SPIKE: It's a terrible thing, love is. I been there myself. (Pause) It ended badly.
ANYA: Of course it did. It always does. Seen a thousand relationships. First there's the love, and sex, and then there's nothing left but the vengeance. That's how it works.
SPIKE: You and I ... should just go do the vengeance. Both of us! You eviscerate Xander, and I'll stake Dru. Like a project.

Our poor demons, can’t help but feel sorry for them, they’ve had the ill luck of falling for Buffy and Xander, two terribly insecure twenty-somethings. Of course Spike and Anya have their own insecurities, Spike lacks a moral compass and Anya is new to the whole soul thing. Sometimes I wonder if Spike and Anya wouldn’t have been better off hooking up with each other. But they didn’t, because as Spike has stated more than once, love is a funny thing and it’s not about brains. Also I believe that the Powers That Be (Joss Whedon and Company) have a wicked sense of humor. So what do you do when there’s as Anya so succinctly sings in OMWF: “wedding and betrayle?” or in the case of Spike, you’re lover refuses to “see you” and instead, beats you up or lets her friends do it? Or in the case of Angel, your best friend steals your son?

Vengeance is the worst possible answer. It’s what Kurtz did long ago in Apocalypse Now. In the film by Francis Ford Coppola, Willard goes into the jungles to locate and kill Col. Kurtz, who had ventured into the jungles years before to avenge the deaths of his men. The vengeance began to take over, until Kurtz was literally hollowed out by it and nothing remained but the need for vengeance. It was never over. And it did not bring back his men. This reminds me of a debate for the Death Penalty that I witnessed on the Kansas State Senate Floor in 1994. The debate was concerning a proposal to re-enact the death penalty in the state of Kansas after it had been discarded fifty years before. Without exception, every argument was about retribution. People quoted from the Old Testament about an “eye for an eye”. The action passed. Apparently we like retribution – we like vengeance. It makes us feel better. As a friend of mine stated at the time: Wouldn’t you want the state to kill me if I raped your mother and killed your family? Well yeah, but it wouldn’t bring them back and it wouldn’t erase the pain. If anything it would make it worse, because then I’d have your death and your family’s pain on my conscience.

Back to Btvs. In Season 4, the episode Pangs discusses forgiveness and vengeance with a dash of wit. In this episode, the angry spirit of a Chumash Indian is revived by a University construction project. The spirit proceeds to enact vengeance on the Scooby Gang. The gang discusses the justification of the spirit’s vengeance and how to deal with it. Willow takes the Indian’s point of view, stating how they are justified and that we treated them horribly. Xander believes vengeance is a bad thing and all vengeance demons should be killed, without exception, particularly the one who gave him syphillus. Giles takes the stance that you need to get rid of the menace before it kills you. It’s too late to apologize and feeling all guilty about it isn’t going to get you anywhere. Giles also states how vengeance just builds up on itself, becoming a vicious cycle of hate. The only thing that can break it - is forgiveness. Enter Spike, their mortal enemy requesting help. In exchange, Spike promises to provide information. It is an interesting episode – because outside we have the nasty vengeance spirit, inside the admittance of a former enemy into the group. They tie Spike up, but they also grant him shelter, food, and some sort of protection. In a sense the SG manage to do what the Indian spirits cannot, forgive a former enemy, at least partially. They are eventually rewarded for this act - Spike helps them in Season 5 defeat Glory, aids in the patrolling of Sunnydale while Buffy is dead, saves Buffy in OMWF, and saves Xander in OAFA and Normal Again. If they hadn’t allowed Spike in, would they have succeeded in defeating Glory? Would Buffy have imploded? Forgiveness can have some astonishing results.

How about Angel? If Angel had not allowed Darla back into his life, not forgiven her, would he have had any time with his son, Connor? If Wesley and the Fang Gang hadn’t forgiven Angel for firing them and acting horribly, would they have survived the Alternate Universe and found Fred? If Buffy hadn’t forgiven Angel for losing his soul, would there even be an Angel? There can only be redemption if we have forgiveness. Forgiveness is a central ingredient to Christianity. The religion is founded on it. The story goes for those of you who don’t know it –Jesus Christ died on a cross in order to forgive the sins of humanity, the very humanity that killed and tortured him. By his forgiveness, we are saved. But forgiveness isn’t an easy thing. The biggest problem with it is sometimes you are forced to forgive someone who has absolutely no “pangs”. No guilt. No remorse. Here’s that pivotal scene from Pangs discussing vengeance (Season 4, Btvs):

Willow : There are 2 sides to it.
Xander : Slaying him? The representative from syphilis votes yea.
Willow : It's not that simple.
Xander : He's a vengeance demon. You don't talk to vengeance demons. You kill them.
Anya : (Drawing back.) I didn't know you felt that way.
Xander : (Totally confused.) What?
Willow : Anyway, he's a spirit, not a demon.
Giles : Yes, and we've never faced this sort of spirit before. We really don't know what will kill it.
Willow : Again with the killing.
Giles : Figuratively speaking. Or bind it or whatever. Yes, willow, we all appreciate your perspective.
Anya : Sometimes vengeance is justified.
Xander : You know that I didn't mean you.
Willow : I don't think anyone appreciates the truth of the situation.
Giles : Oh, I think we do. Hus won't stop. Vengeance is never sated, buffy. Hatred is a cycle. All he will do is kill. (There's a knock at the door. Buffy goes to answer it and Spike is standing there, cowering below a blanket. Smoke rises as he's being seared by the indirect sun.)
Spike : Help me. (Buffy shoves him back and he goes tumbling.) Ohh! What part of help me do you not understand?

Sorry for the length of the quote but I think it expresses our characters views on vengeance perfectly. Xander reacts with his needs in mind and who wouldn’t? He represents the innocent victim or bystander hit by vengeance. Anya and Willow take the Indians’ side. And Giles sees it from a practical perspective. It’s Buffy who remains on the fence. But my favorite part is Spike. Spike who fits Giles’ definition of a soulless killing machine, suddenly appears, harmless and in desperate need of help. Evil with a twist. Poor Buffy, Evil isn’t just Evil any more, it’s coming in shades of gray. As she states she preferred her evil: “You know, "straight up, black hat, "Tied to the train tracks, soon my electro-ray will destroy metropolis" bad. Not all mixed up with guilt and the destruction of an indigenous culture.” But evil isn’t like that folks. It’s insidious. Sometimes it comes in the form of an evil boss who upsets you so badly you spend all day writing an essay on Buffy instead of doing work. I’ve seen evil. Used to see if every day when I was working on the Kansas Defender Project. Went up to Leavenworth Penitentiary, walked into what looked like an airport lounge and counseled unreformed unrepentant murderers, rapists and robbers. And want to know what I discovered? What my advisor kept trying to tell me, over and over again? “There but for the grace of god, go I.” Life isn’t simple. The good guys don’t wear white hats like in the old 1950’s westerns and the bad guys don’t wear black ones. Sometimes things are just a tad more convoluted.

Anya – poor dear Anya, my heart goes out to her. She really tried to make this mortal coil thing work. She was marrying her best friend, had gotten a job, was starting a life. What she didn’t count on was her best friend was a dope. Okay maybe not a dope, but Xander should have discussed his fears with Anya, let her know what was going on. Didn’t he realize what he was dealing with? And what about Spike?

Okay time for a quick digression – Spike is for all intents and purposes a sociopath. That is the difference between Spike, Anya, Warren and the soon to be announced Big Bad. A sociopath is NOT inherently evil. Actually you probably work or go to school with a few. Sociopaths do not possess the ability to emotionally comprehend what is right and what is wrong. Oh they know the rules. They can intellectually get it. Some are quite bright. And they can fall in love. They just don’t possess the ability to empathize with other people. Legally if a sociopath kills someone, they can stand trial and get murder one, because they intellectually get the difference, they know that if they kill someone – they will be punished for it. They do not completely get why, except that society has rules against it. This does not make them evil. They are capable of incredibly heroic acts – they just tend to do them for selfish reasons, such as a medal, the love of another person, recognition. It would never occur to a sociopath to race into a burning building and save someone they never met. Again this does not make them evil. The character of Alex in Anthony Burgess’ A Clockwork Orange is the perfect literary example of a sociopath. The people Alex torments aren’t people to Alex, they are objects for his amusement. He has fun with them. He does not see or feel their pain. When he rapes a woman in A Clockwork Orange – he calls it the old “in-out” – to him it is a purely physical, animal experience. Her pain doesn’t register. He is as Anthony Burgess describes him, a windup toy, pointed in the direction of destruction. Spike is the classic example of a sociopath – he is charming (most sociopaths are), he tends to do heroic or evil acts based on selfish motivation, and he does not understand on a purely emotional level the difference between right and wrong. Intellectually he gets it. But without that internal moral compass – he has no way of emotionally comprehending it. As Angel tells Faith way back in Consequences, Season 3 Btvs, the soulless demon doesn’t really have a choice. He doesn’t really get the difference between an evil act and a good one. If you think about it – this explains a lot of Spike’s actions: In Becoming Part II (Season 2, Btvs.), Spike considers eating the cop –“Let me eat this guy first” and Buffy stops him. Until she does, Spike really doesn’t see that it would be a problem and he really does not understand why she cares – the cop just tried to arrest her after all. He has the same problem in Dead Things (Season 6, Btvs.)– he does not understand why she cares about Katrina. Katrina is dead. A body. Someone neither of them knew. It was accidental. What does it matter? Why destroy your life over it? I think it is very hard for someone with a conscience, with a moral compass to conceive what it would be like to NOT have one. It does NOT make one evil, it just makes you more predisposed to do evil acts. It makes you unpredictable. And more likely to seek vengeance. Someone without a conscience cannot conceive the emotional consequences of their actions, only the legal ones. They only know it is wrong because someone told them it was wrong. I tend to hold people with a soul, moral compass or a conscience to a higher standard than someone without it. Why? Because the person with the compass is not a windup toy, they know deep down that they are causing someone else pain, they can feel it. They have made a conscious choice. That in my opinion is true EVIL. Warren is an example of a character that I consider truly evil. A character who has a choice to go down a different path, who knows the emotional and legal consequences of his acts, yet chooses to do them any way regardless of the consequences. To me Warren’s actions towards Katrina were far more EVIL than Spike’s. Just as the Mayor’s and Faith’s actions are far more EVIL than Spike’s. End of digression.

Yeah, I know, some of you still think, sociopath = inherent Evil. I’ll never convince you otherwise. And ME is determined to reiterate this thesis, even if they lose fifty percent of their audience in the process. So let’s give Evil or Spike his due, Spike has been bending over backwards lately to be good. He’s fought alongside the SG, sacrificed his life for the SG (on more than one occasion, Intervention – let Glory torture him to death, almost got killed by Doc in Weight of the World and The Gift, saved Dawn from Pirates in Bargaining, saved Buffy in OMWF, saved Xander and almost got skewered in Older and Far Away, saved Xander and almost got spiked in Normal Again, helped Tara in Family, stayed around all summer while Buffy was dead and buried helping the SG and taking care of Dawn.) but apparently that’s not enough. The Powers That Be require something a lot greater than that. Not sure what. Does he have to ask for Forgiveness to obtain it? Does he have to do something unrelated to Buffy? Does he have to actively seek to be good for no other reason than he wants to be? Again I am reminded of Alex in A Clockwork Orange – who in the Twenty-first Chapter of Burgess’ book determines that there is more worth in creation than destruction. And he is more than a windup toy for God or the Devil. He can choose. I hope that Spike and Anya are too. Heck I hope the same thing about us. Because if there is no forgiveness in this world, no way to “turn the other cheek”, then…what’s the point? Are we doomed, like Holtz, to an endless cycle of hate? Or can we be like Buffy Ann Summers of The Gift and Intervention and learn to forgive those who seem beyond any chance for redemption? Can we forgive the demons in ourselves?

Thanks for reading. Amazingly enough it helped writing this today, calmed all that rage in a nice positive way. Feedback is appreciated!!

:- ) shadowkat
[> Thanks shadowcat! -- ponygirl, 06:35:10 04/30/02 Tue

Wishing some karmic, but non-vengenance-y, retribution for your boss. Loved the essay, and I hope like you that the SG will be able to escape the vengenance wheel.
[> Wow. Loved this. Want to respond, no time now & head spinning! Thanks! -- lachesis, 07:51:34 04/30/02 Tue

[> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel, vengeance - also long (long! minor spoilers of The Price & Entropy promo) -- LittleBit, 08:17:34 04/30/02 Tue

First, let me just say you have my sympathies regarding the pointy-haired-idiot boss. I've been there and can, very understatedly, say it's not fun. I hope the situation improves, or you are able to move out of it (although I most sincerely hope that a happy job doesn't result in loss of amazing essays)!

Forgiveness and vengeance seem to be the opposite ends of a spectrum of responses to actions perceived as hurtful. The hurt can be personal (to ourselves or to those we care about), to principles, to ideas, to our very way of life. I have read views on this board that are surprisingly polarized to one end or the other of this spectrum.

Spike and Anya seem to be the ones that receive the fewest calls for forgiveness and the greatest demand for vengeance. Perhaps this is because their introduction to the audience highlighted the evilness in their nature, and first impressions are hardest to change. It is difficult sometimes to look at a person's/ vampire's/ demon's/ ex-demon's/ newly-human's current behavior and judge them on their actions not their history. To the one who is trying to be what others want, this can be incredibly frustrating. [Tangential aside – anyone who has had a job review that uses an incident that happened 11 months ago as a reason to keep the rating down – pointy-haired-boss – knows what I mean.]

There is a concept that appears frequently in fantasy writing: good done in the name of evil is still good; evil done in the name of good is still evil. To relate this to our favorite 'evil' beings: Glory would be back home and all hells would have broken loose on earth of it hadn't been for Spike and Anya. I'm not even going to use Spike's silence under torture here, because Glory still found Dawn in time. What I do wants to say is this: if Spike hadn't protected Dawn from Doc as long as he did, her blood would have been flowing much longer and Buffy may not have gotten there in time. If Anya hadn't been the only one who offered practical solutions to how to slow Glory down, they would never have been able to overcome her. It was the use of the Dagon Sphere that allowed Buffy(bot) to slow her down enough to let Willow close in. It was Olaf's enchanted hammer that Buffy used against Glory to such effect. Anya's contributions. If all this was done in self-preservation – so be it. The world was saved by these actions. Does the fact that it was Anya and Spike negate the good that was done? Or do good deed counts only if the good-deed-doer is worthy of doing good deeds? To be worthy is it required that remorse and apologies must be proffered for the evil that is/was their nature. Is it only then that they may redeem themselves?

Spike then continues to do what he is allowed to do to assist the group. He takes responsibility for Dawn when the others can't. He protects as much as he is able. And, I find this telling, it is Spike and Giles who are carefully left out of the Buffy resurrection plans. Why Spike? Because he, like Giles, wouldn't understand, would oppose it because it was wrong.

Anya is trying to be a gainful member of society. She works hard. She helps research. She went out vampire-hunting with the rest of them. She's actually reaching for it all: successful independent business woman, marriage to the man she sees as her best friend, house, white picket fence, children. Why is it so right that all of this be denied to her? Because she hasn't said she's sorry.

Forgiveness or vengeance. Are these really the only choices? Can forgiveness be granted only if asked for? Don't we forgive frequently without the recipient even knowing? (Late for lunch. Can’t make the movie. Forgot to pick up the milk.) Is vengeance just? Does vengeance know any limitations? The curse on Angel was intended to last through eternity. Through countless generations of the clan whose daughter he killed. I look at Jenny's Uncle Enyos and I do not see a happy man. He is not content. He is devoting his existence to assure that Angel remain tortured. He is tortured himself.

Enyos: You know what it is, this thing vengeance?
Jenny: Uncle, I have served you. I have been faithful. I need to know...
Enyos: (interrupts) To the modern man vengeance is a verb, an idea. Payback. One thing for another. Like commerce. Not with us. Vengeance is a living thing. It passes through generations. It commands. It kills.
Jenny: You told me to watch Angel. You told me to keep him from the Slayer. I tried. But there are other factors. There are terrible things happening here that we cannot control.
Enyos: We control nothing. We are not wizards, Janna. We merely play our part.
Jenny: Angel could be of help to us. I mean, he may be the only chance we have to stop the Judge.
Enyos: It is too late for that.
Jenny: Why?
Enyos: The curse. Angel is meant to suffer, not to live as human. One moment of true happiness, of contentment, one moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts, and that soul is taken from him.
Jenny: Then, if somehow, if... if it's happened... then Angelus is back.
Enyos: I hoped to stop it. But I realize now it was arranged to be so.
Jenny: Buffy loves him.
Enyos: And now she will have to kill him.
Jenny: (stands up) Unless he kills her first! Uncle, this is insanity! People are going to die.
Enyos: Yes. It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance.
Jenny: (exhales and grabs her coat and bag) You are a fool. We're all fools.

Jenny is right. And Jenny is dead because of vengeance. So...Enyos was also right. It kills.

We do not have to forgive to choose not to seek revenge. We can remember, we can go on. As Shadowkat has said, Buffy does this better than anyone in the BuffyVerse. If she did not, if she sought revenge for all the wrongs that have come her way, would there be any characters left in the show?

Xander – who was responsible for a spell that made her love him, get turned into a rat, then turn up naked in the school basement? who cast the spell that turned Sunnydale into a miniature version of 'all the world's a stage' and nearly got Dawn abducted to a demon dimension and Buffy killed?

Willow – who cast a spell that got her engaged to Spike? who was the one responsible for Glory identifying Dawn as the key? who cast the Tabula Rasa spell that caused them to forget? who was the one that brought her back from heaven?

Giles – who was willing to kill Dawn if necessary?

Angel – who killed Enyos and Jenny in the most horrible manner? who almost succeeded with Willow? who subjected Buffy and all who were close to her to torment because he enjoyed it?

Cordelia – who managed to offend by the simple expedient of being herself?

Joyce – who told her not to come back if she left the house?

Dawn – who has been the most hurtful because she van be?

Anya – who brought VampWillow to Sunnydale? who, with Willow, loosed Olaf on the town?

Spike – who tried so many times to kill her? who has brought out aspects of herself that she does not want to acknowledge?

and lastly, Faith – who repudiated everything Buffy stands for? who joined the enemy camp? who nearly killed Angel? b who stole Buffy's very identity and wreaked havoc with her relationships?

They are all still alive, although Faith is the closest Buffy came to achieving the revenge she sought. Only her friends and Faith's own determination not to lose stopped her. If she had succeeded, she would never have forgiven herself. If Buffy carried grudges against everyone who has ever hurt her she would become non-functional, unable to act decisively as the heroine must.

There are those that might say that she spared those mentioned above because they were human, and that she shouldn't have spared Spike or Anya because they are not human and therefore they are evil. To this I say only: while today, in our society, we recognize the human race in all its facets, there are times in human history when this was not so, when those who were different from the ones with power were not considered human, not believed to have a soul, nothing more than animals.

Forgive or don’t forgive, but use vengeance carefully, it always comes back.

[Quotes from Psyche's transcripts]

Comments? Or was it all just blather?
[> [> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel, vengeance - also long (long! minor spoilers of The Price & Entropy promo) -- shadowkat, 11:37:58 04/30/02 Tue

Tried to respond before but it wouldn't lock. Having the worst problems with the boards today.

Thank you LittleBit - for emphasizing my point and for really getting my thesis. A lot of people on the B C & S
board got side-tracked by the whole sociopath thing.
I also appreciate the support.

It is about NOT seeking vengeance, not about Not forgiving.
I hope others have read your response and are just pondering it. Thanks again!
[> [> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel & Coriolanus -- Malandanza, 12:21:11 04/30/02 Tue

I like what you said about Buffy and forgiveness -- it is a terrible irony for her that most of the pain in her life has either been caused by or exacerbated by her closest friends. Buffy's ability to rise above vengeance and forgive is one of the things that makes her a hero and I hope that one day we will see a scene where Buffy and Faith reconcile their differences.

I disagree with your assessment about Spike and Giles:

"And, I find this telling, it is Spike and Giles who are carefully left out of the Buffy resurrection plans. Why Spike? Because he, like Giles, wouldn't understand, would oppose it because it was wrong. "

Spike doesn't have a problem with resurrection magic -- he helped a teenage girl gather the components needed to do a spell to raise Joyce from the dead. He would not have opposed the spell. In fact, Spike is rather clear about why he was left out:

XANDER: We didn't tell you. It was ... we just didn't, okay? Maybe you should stop being a problem for a second and just be glad that she's back..

SPIKE: Listen. I've figured it out. Maybe you haven't, but I have. Willow knew there was a chance she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have to-- that she'd have to get rid of what came back. And she knew I wouldn't let her. If any part of it was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. That's why she shut me out.

From the scene it is clear that Xander isn't aware of why they excluded Spike -- he never bothered to give the matter any thought. I believe that Spike is right about Willow -- she did have a contingency plan to destroy Buffy if something went wrong (but I doubt she would have been able to go through with it unless Buffy was very wrong -- maybe in torment and begging to be killed). On the other hand, he might have been excluded for a reason as simple as they needed a baby-sitter while they were off playing with dark magic.

The current Anya debate really isn't about Anya or vengeance -- it's about excusing Spike's actions by claiming that a double standard exists. The heart of the argument is: Anya has been forgiven for 1120 years of evil so why can't Spike be forgiven for 100 years? And I think this argument misses the point.

Anya, Angel and Spike have all had life changing moments. Angelus got his soul, Anyanka lost her powers and Spike got chipped. In each case, none of the three immediately turned their back on evil. Each tried to return to his or her former state. The soul, loss of amulet and chip were not the turning points in their lives -- these incidents merely set the stage for the future turning points. For Angel, his moment is clear. Whistler shows him Buffy and he resolves to do good. For Anya, it is less clear. I would say when Xander confessed his love for her was the moment. For Spike, I think the consensus is that his torture session with Glory was his moment. Comparing these three characters in their post-evil phases, Anya comes out the best. She has been doing good from Season Four through Season Six -- with no relapses. We have never been treated to an Anya episode where she actually goes out and eviscerates a man for the sake of a spurned woman. On the other hand, while he hasn't left a roomful of lawyers to die at the hands of two viscous vampires, Spike has had some clearly evil moments -- especially with regard to his selfish behavior with Buffy -- in Season Six. While he's no Angel, he certainly is no Anya either. If Anya is being treated more leniently than Spike, I'd say it's because she deserves it. What has she done, since joining the Scoobies, that would warrant her condemnation?

It's not that I'm totally unsympathetic to Spike. I do believe that there is part of him that wants to belong and wants the approval of the others (even Xander). This scene from Triangle shows what's wrong with Spike:

SPIKE stands in front of his Buffy mannequin, holding a box of chocolates. He looks at the mannequin.

SPIKE: Um... there's, there's something I got to tell you. About showing you Riley, in that place. I didn't mean to...Anyway, I know you're feeling all betrayed...I mean, by him, not me. I was trying to help, you know. Not like I made him be there, after all! Actually did it to help you. Best intentions.

He starts pacing, now, talking animatedly with the mannequin.

SPIKE: Pretty state you'd be in, thinking things are all right while he's toddling halfway round the bend. Oh, I'll insult him if I want to! I'm the one on your side! Me! Doing you a favor! And you being dead petty about it. Me getting nothing but your hatred and venom and...!

Having worked himself into a good ol' rage, Spike starts beating the mannequin with the box of chocolate.

SPIKE: Ungrateful bitch--

Eventually he catches himself, breathes deep, calms himself down. He tries to un-crush the crushed box. He starts over.

SPIKE: Buffy. Yeah. Something I wanted to tell you...


Whatever good intentions Spike has are overwhelmed by the rage inside, and I think this scene is pretty typical of Spike. Even recently, in OaFA, he arrives at the birthday party with a friend and a six-pack talking about being part of team -- he really doesn't want to be left out. Whatever good intentions he had are quickly forgotten when he spots Buffy, forgets all about the reason the party is being celebrated and pressures her into having sex with him (fortunately Tara intervenes). In Normal Again, he is at first sympathetic to the Xander/Anya wedding disaster, but all it takes is one comment by Xander and Spike attacks him in a way that is calculated to hurt him the most. I see an analogy between Spike and Shakespeare's Coriolanus. In Act I, Scene 9, Coriolanus (Martius) is offered a full tenth of the treasure taken by the victorious Romans after he almost single-handedly captured a city and changed the course of a battel from defeat to victory, but he refuses, asking instead for a favor:

Coriolanus: I sometime lay here in Corioles
At a poor man's house; he used me kindly.
He cried to me; I saw him prisoner;
But then Aufidius was within my view,
And wrath o'erwhelmed my pity. I request you
To give my poor host his freedom.

Cominius: O, Well begged!
Were he the butcher of my son, he should
Be free as is the wind. Deliver him Titus.

Lartius: Martius, his name?

Coriolanus: By Jupiter, forgot!

Thus, the best intentions and noble gesture of Coriolanus is forgot because of momentary anger. With Spike it is the same -- he has occasional noble intentions, but in the heat of anger or lust, he forgets. He is not Willow, who acts on good intentions and messes things up; he fails to act on his good intentions, distracted by baser impulses. Until he can reign in his darker passions, I don't think there's any point to the Redemption debate, and there is certainly no comparison between Spike and Anya. It isn't about who had the higher body count when they were unrestrained, it's about who the better person is now.
[> [> [> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel & Coriolanus -- Sophist, 13:12:28 04/30/02 Tue

For Anya, it is less clear. I would say when Xander confessed his love for her was the moment.

For me, it didn't happen until Hell's Bells, when Anya finally got what love is. I think this difference in timing explains my different reaction to Anya as compared to Spike.

Spike has had some clearly evil moments -- especially with regard to his selfish behavior with Buffy -- in Season Six.

Is Spike urging Buffy to "come into the dark with me" really much different than Anya encouraging Willow to use magic to alleviate her own feeling of panic in OAFA?

I certainly would not try to excuse all of Spike's acts in the last 2 seasons, but I think the argument for him vis-a-vis Anya is a little different. Anya has done less bad than Spike over that time and shown less lack of understanding of the nature of evil. No dispute there. But Spike just as clearly has done more good deeds than Anya. And his good deeds have been shown not just as more common, but as more important than hers. It's that trade-off which makes the comparison harder.

It isn't about who had the higher body count when they were unrestrained, it's about who the better person is now.

Completely agree. And it's about how they act in the future. Starting in 7 hours PDT.
[> [> [> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel & Coriolanus -- shadowkat, 13:14:41 04/30/02 Tue

Malandaza - I actually agree with you, I think the writers
are going in this direction as well. According to what
I've read - ME sees Spike as a classic sociopathic personality and as such, he really is incapable of doing
what Anya has sort of done at this point. Remember Spike has no moral compass, Anya does. Which by the way means Anya should answer to a slightly higher standard because as Angel would put it - Anya has a chance. Spike is still a being completely controlled by emotional impulses. The chip has helped him figure out how to restrain those impulses. Because he can't act out on them. The chip prevents it. So he's learned anger management - something that he didn't know how to do before. That's what you see with the maniken
in Triangle - repeated attempts to control his anger. He know he can't hurt her - it'll give him uncontrollable pain.
But it is an outside influence and is not a soul. The question is whether this sort of behavior conditioning has lasting effects even after it is removed. Way back when I did the behaviorist tests with rats - and learned that such conditioning is temporary. So I'm not sure we'll have the pavlovian response with Spike, who is clearly a brighter creature than a rat.

I disagree with the folks about Intervention. I don't believe this is a clear redemptive moment yet. That was the moment he realized he loved Buffy and she realized he was devoted to her - but you can love someone and still cause them harm, the love can still be selfish. So it's not redemptive. IMHO He hasn't hit rock bottom yet, he hasn't realized that his actions can hurt others, hurt someone he loves and have regrettable consequences. Until he does realize this, I'm not sure he can change. I think Spike has to do something so horrible to someone he loves that it will elicit a response of remorse and self-hatred for him to pursue or even think of changing. At this point he is of the opinion he was in AYW and Tough Love = "I'm not good, but I'm okay." Or "Me? You're the one playing games. You've always known what I am" speech.

My hunch is they are about to thrust the character over a metaphorical cliff. HE is about to do something ugly to someone he loves and I think he'll realize it and it will send him reeling. Ironically - what may be Spike's turning point may be the very thing we'd convict him on. (Hence my points about forgiveness and vengeance - after all humanity's turning point in the Christian faith was when we cruxified Christ - we had to kill him to be redeemed. Ironic as heck.) That's what ME has done with all it's other characters. Made them hit rock bottom first. Example
Riley and the vamp trulls, Angel in Amends and
earlier when he is a bum wandering the streets and sees
Buffy - though I'd argue that he really wasn't on the path until Amends - when he literally wanted to commit suicide. Anya isn't there yet either - everything she's done was for Xander. Which you can argue is somewhat selfish. But Her redemptive moment is coming. She just has to hit rock bottom first.

My essay wasn't so much about redemption as it was about forgiveness and our own ability not to punish
or seek vengeance against others who have hurt us.
So your analogy to Titus Andronius is a fitting one.
That shakespearen play shows the negative results of vengeance
exceedingly well. Especially the movie version by Julie
Taymor (sp?).
gotta go - thanks!
[> [> [> [> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel & Coriolanus -- Malandanza, 14:43:19 04/30/02 Tue

While, in general, I think that rapid responses to posts by the same people is a sign of closed minds and bad logic (just look at how quickly the trolls respond), since all our speculation is about to be Jossed out of existence in about four and a half hours (AZ time), I want respond to a few points by Sophist and shadowkat:

Sophist: "For me, it [her epiphany?] didn't happen until Hell's Bells, when Anya finally got what love is. I think this difference in timing explains my different reaction to Anya as compared to Spike."

re: hitting rock bottom shadowkat: "Angel in Amends and earlier when he is a bum wandering the streets and sees Buffy - though I'd argue that he really wasn't on the path until Amends - when he literally wanted to commit suicide."

I also considered whether Hell's Bells was the turning point for Anya -- I believe it was a turning point, but of a slightly different nature. She helped the Scoobies from the beginning of Season Four, but for Xander's sake. Eventually, she began to help them less for Xander and more for their own sake (and she has helped them steadfastly and continuously, for no personal gain). Anya from THLoD is a very different person from the Anya from Season Six or late Season Five. Like Angel when he saw Buffy, Anya made the decision (perhaps subconsciously) to fight, not for Xander, but for good. Hell's Bells is similar to Amends -- in both cases Anya and Angel had been doing good -- making the world a better place by their presence. In both cases they were confronted by their evil histories and discovered, to their horror, that present good doesn't simply erase all the evil of the past. Angel had Buffy to help him through his time of despair; Anya has had no one. Later, Angel discovers that no matter how much good he does, it will never "balance" the evil that he did and this revelation nearly destroys him (until Epiphany and he realizes that the point of doing good has nothing to do with karmic balance sheets -- Angel's had a lot of epiphanies). Actually, Angel's first "epiphany" came in AYNoHYEB when he tries to help. Unfortunately, his help is met by hatred and he veers away from the path of good for a few decades -- he didn't understand that one should not do good with the expectation of being rewarded.

shadowkat: "I disagree with the folks about Intervention. I don't believe this is a clear redemptive moment yet. That was the moment he realized he loved Buffy and she realized he was devoted to her - but you can love someone and still cause them harm, the love can still be selfish. So it's not redemptive"

That makes sense. Then Spike from this period would be more like Anya from early Season Four -- good for Buffy's sake rather than good for good's sake. But he's had other moments when he should have changed -- Buffy's death, her resurrection & the confession that she'd been in Heaven.

shadowkat: "IMHO He hasn't hit rock bottom yet, he hasn't realized that his actions can hurt others, hurt someone he loves and have regrettable consequences. Until he does realize this, I'm not sure he can change. I think Spike has to do something so horrible to someone he loves that it will elicit a response of remorse and self-hatred for him to pursue or even think of changing. At this point he is of the opinion he was in AYW and Tough Love = "I'm not good, but I'm okay." Or "Me? You're the one playing games. You've always known what I am" speech."

He's done some pretty horrible things. Buffy has been teetering on the brink of total despair since she was brought back -- no one knows that better than Spike -- and he chose to try to drag her over the precipice -- for sex. So, Sophist, I would say yes:

"Is Spike urging Buffy to "come into the dark with me" really much different than Anya encouraging Willow to use magic to alleviate her own feeling of panic in OAFA?"

It is much different. Anya tried to get Willow to change her no into a yes once. Her situation was somewhat more desperate than "alleviat[ing] her own feeling of panic" -- they were trapped in a house with a demon popping out and ambushing them. If Spike's "come into the dark with me" speeches had been about saving his life (and the lives of Buffy's friends), they would have been more excusable. They weren't. They were about sexual gratification at Buffy's expense. I'm not sure what else Spike could do to demonstrate that he doesn't have Buffy's interests at heart. Or what he could do that would make him loathe himself when he blames Buffy for everything he does. And I think there is evidence that he does understand how bad he's making things for Buffy -- he bedroom speech to Buffy in NA shows his consciousness of the pain he's causing her (all her fault, of course).

shadowkat: "Remember Spike has no moral compass, Anya does. Which by the way means Anya should answer to a slightly higher standard because as Angel would put it - Anya has a chance"

I think Anya has been held to a higher standard, based on all the anti-Anya and pro-Spike posts. However, one character I think ought to be held to a higher standard but persistently escapes censure is Willow. Willow's actions are often harder to defend than Spike's. Her current path to recovery is solely for Tara's sake. I prefer Spike's "You've always known what I am" to Willow's contrition and recidivism.

Oh, and it's Coriolanus, not Titus Andronicus :)
[> [> [> [> [> Not sure if I've been rebuked for responding or not... -- LittleBit, 14:57:58 04/30/02 Tue

...I'm still relatively new to this board. Have I been trollish? I certainly didn't mean to be. I thought we were engaging in a discussion with differing viewpoints.

If I was wrong in this perception and have been trollish, I will stop.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I certainly -- Sophist, 17:31:52 04/30/02 Tue

did not see your posts as even remotely trollish. No reason for you to stop; your posts are thoughtful.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> No you weren't !And please continue -- shadowkat, 18:25:21 04/30/02 Tue

Please don't stop. Malandaza insulted me and Sophist and
I found it fairly cruel and unnecessary. If you disagree,
with someone fine. No reason to cast stones. Or call names. Some of us work hard on our essays and nothing in Malandaza's second somewhat insulting response convinced me. PArtly because I was distracted by the insults. I will think twice before responding to another post by Malandaza, who clearly missed the entire point of my essay.

I also had no way of knowing which play she referred to or who it was by, I had to guess. So please LittleBit stay
here! Or I may follow you...life is too short to put up
with insults. It's a tv show!! And we thank god are not the writers! We just come together to discuss it and until now I believed pleasantly.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A Radical Interpretation of the Text -- Malandanza, 18:59:52 04/30/02 Tue

"Please don't stop. Malandaza insulted me and Sophist and
I found it fairly cruel and unnecessary. If you disagree,
with someone fine. No reason to cast stones. Or call names. Some of us work hard on our essays and nothing in Malandaza's second somewhat insulting response convinced me. PArtly because I was distracted by the insults. I will think twice before responding to another post by Malandaza, who clearly missed the entire point of my essay."

My comments were not insults to anyone on the board; rather, they were an explanation as to why I usually do not post in quick succession on the same topic. Here were my remarks to which shadowkat alludes:

"While, in general, I think that rapid responses to posts by the same people is a sign of closed minds and bad logic (just look at how quickly the trolls respond), since all our speculation is about to be Jossed out of existence in about four and a half hours (AZ time), I want respond to a few points by Sophist and shadowkat:"

To avoid the appearance of being a troll, I don't generally post quickly. I explain that I am breaking my rule because the speculation will soon be at an end. Saying that trolls post rapidly is not the same as saying that rapidly posting posters are trolls. I don't see the ambiguity in my remarks. I don't hide my attacks behinds behind suggestion, anonymity and innuendo. If you choose to pretend that I am taking a veiled swipe at prolific posters, frankly, I don't care.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Mal is right. Shadowkat and Little Bit, please read. -- Sophist, 19:22:48 04/30/02 Tue

I am particularly dense today and didn't realize that Little Bit didn't understand that Malandanza was taking a poke at himself, not anyone else. When I came back on to make this post, I found a complete misunderstanding. I now feel bad for not clearing it up right away.

Shadowkat, Little Bit, please understand that Malandanza would not and did not insult you.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's why I was asking... -- LittleBit, 22:47:32 04/30/02 Tue

I don't know the personalities here yet and I tend to like to ask about something like this rather than taking umbrage. Now I know.

Thank you.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel & Coriolanus -- leslie, 15:30:44 04/30/02 Tue

"He's done some pretty horrible things. Buffy has been teetering on the brink of total despair since she was brought back -- no one knows that better than Spike -- and he chose to try to drag her over the precipice -- for sex."

Again with the "sex is de facto bad" attitudes. Clearly, for a while at least, sex with Spike is the only that makes Buffy feel she is alive at all. It may not be the only thing she needs to cure her depression, but it strikes me that if you're in love with someone and you notice that they are droopy, depressed, and unhappy all the time, but actually perk up and respond while they are having sex with you, you might be forgiven for thinking that sex with you is good for them. If you're the only person they can talk to about their problems, you might be forgiven for thinking that that their inner being is much like yours. If you've both been dead and clawed your way out of a coffin back to the surface of the earth, you might be forgiven for thinking that you've got something in common.

Sex is about being alive, not about being punished for doing something pleasurable. Buffy needs to be alive, not punished. Oooh, drat that naughty Spike for not telling her she's a piece of shit and a whore for wanting to be alive!
[> [> [> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel & Coriolanus (thru Hell's Bells) -- LittleBit, 13:52:39 04/30/02 Tue

I understand your point about Spike. I'm not a redemptionist, I just think Spike gets short shrift for the things that he does that are good. It seems sometimes that unless his motive is unselfish, credit isn't given for the action. Spike is incredibly self-serving in many ways. Absolutely. He is still a demon/vampire and very probably wouldn't have done the things he has if he hadn't been chipped. He struggles against his nature, sometimes winning, sometimes losing. He wants to belong as badly as he did as William, and he is as inept at fitting in now as he was back then. I just think the effort deserves some credit.

If unselfish motives are necessary for true good acts, then I think we would have to question a great deal of Xander's behavior. I think his best moments were the speeches to Buffy and Anya at the end of Into The Woods. When he talks to Buffy one of the things he tells her is, "This is so not about me." It is a standout moment because, for once, he's right. He is thinking about her and Riley and Anya and about not screwing things up.

I've enjoyed the Anya/Xander and Buffy/Spike relationships. Not because I think they are be all - end all romances but because they are both flawed. These flaws have caused all of the participants to behave in ways that are sometimes painful to watch. It was difficult to see Xander, who had tried so hard not to act like his family, surrender to what he saw as an inevitable pattern. It was hard to listen to Anya explain why she understands love and friendship and commitment only to lose it all. Didn't matter if it was poetic justice or not. Buffy's realization that she could not continue as she had been, and that the darkness was a part of her, was a revelation that was no less painful for having seen it coming. Spike's hurt at the break-up, the rejection, the 'William' was not easy to watch.

Neither Spike nor Anya are going to react well. It wasn't their nature then and it isn't their nature now. Many will see it as a sign that they haven't changed at all. This view negates everything they have done to help the group.

Buffy and Xander will carry some share of the consequences. The responsibility for the failed relationships lies with all the involved individuals. Buffy knows she used Spike, knows she kept the relationship hidden from the others, knows this wasn't fair. Even though the reasons for ending it are good ones, they aren't any less painful. Xander ended things with Anya in one of the most devastating ways possible. I was even furious with him for leaving her to face everyone alone.

Where this leads for me is that both Spike and Anya have had pasts in which they did despicable things. Anya reminisces about those days a great deal, but she has never, as you noted, acted on them since season 4. Spike still has his demonic nature underlying the chip, but has for whatever reasons aided Buffy and the rest of the gang. In this, Anya has come much farther in becoming the type of person she wants to be, while Spike still struggles.

I'm not advocating forgiving them their past deeds or forgetting what they are each capable of doing. But I don't think vengeance for those deeds is necessary either. I am certain that there will be consequences on all fronts for the relationship changes that have occurred. And I think it will be, as always, interesting to see how it plays out.
[> Re: Anya,Spike, Angel and theme of vengeance (long! minor spoilers of The Price & Entropy promo) -- verdantheart, 12:42:21 04/30/02 Tue

Thanks for the latest essay. As usual, it's very interesting and thought-provoking.

I don't personally think that Buffy has completely forgiven Spike because I think it would be difficult for her to treat him as hurtfully as she has if she had forgiven him. (I emphasize COMPLETELY)

It's interesting that you say "ME is determined to reiterate this thesis" (that Spike is inherently evil). It may be what certain characters are saying, but as you point out, Spike has done much to demonstrate a potential for good. This is also ME's fault and it's hard for me to believe that they have no idea what they're doing. A writer does not necessarily express his/her intention through the mouths of the characters, but through the the story itself. The telling of a story is in action as well as dialogue. I'm sure you understand this, but it bears repeating.
Poor Groo (spoilers for The Price) -- Lilac, 07:25:47 04/30/02 Tue

I must first state that I never thought that Cordelia and Groo were destined for the long haul, seeds of an Angel/Cordelia relationship not withstanding. Groo, while courageous and heroic and sweet, is not, in my estimation, intellectually stimulating enough for Cordelia. But, even with my feeling all this, I have to say I felt really badly for Groo when he overheard Cordelia's heartfelt declaration of Angel's importance to her. Thank heavens Groo didn't come in a few moments earlier to hear himself referred to as an adorable puppy with a lot of stamina. If he had heard that entire conversation, we probably would have seen his hero's heart break on the spot.

What strikes me as odd about this relationship is that it seems that Cordelia has taken a leaf from Buffy's book of denial. How unCordelia-like of her. Yes, Cordelia has good reason to be afraid of Angel when he gets too happy. Even so, she seems to be in complete denial of what she is doing in her relationship with Groo -- which is using him every bit as much as Buffy has been using Spike. Sure, she doesn't revile Groo like Buffy does Spike, but she sees him as no more real of a partner either.

On a completely superficial note, I would like to know why every brunette woman on television eventually winds up blonde. What is with that? In the real world, many of us with dark hair have never, ever felt the need to bleach. OK,I know this is petty, but it bothers me.
[> Re: Superficial Note: At least the sun hasn't come up for Dawn yet ;) -- LittleBit, 08:32:06 04/30/02 Tue

[> [> Hah! But I wouldn't bet against it for next year. -- Lilac, 08:46:23 04/30/02 Tue

[> Mystery of the ages. -- Cactus Watcher, 10:21:05 04/30/02 Tue

After attending a high school reunion, with a distressing number of brunettes-to-blondes many years ago, I've always been suspicious that a woman in her thirties who suddenly changes from life-long dark, natural hair to short dyed blonde hair may have found a gray hair or two. It takes a brave young woman to publically admit she's prematurely gray, just as it takes a brave young man to admit he's really going bald.
[> Maybe silly, but -- Vickie, 11:28:47 04/30/02 Tue

I read somewhere that Charisma Carpenter wanted to grow her hair out and the show (the network?) wouldn't let her. She may just have desperately wanted a change.
[> Damn, I felt bad for Groo last night (spoilers for The Price) -- cjl, 11:59:34 04/30/02 Tue

He's given up his throne, his home dimension, and his Prince Valiant wardrobe to be with Cordelia. He's been working his ass off adapting to the weird and wacky ways of our culture, and for someone who's supposedly dim, he's doing an excellent job.

What does he get for his troubles?

Cordy-lovin'. (OK, I'll admit that's a BIG upside.)

But even Groo can see that he may have her body, but he doesn't have her heart. Cordelia's emotional investment in Angel far outwieghs her commitment to Groo. He knows it; she doesn't. (Now who's dim?) Worse, even though he has Angel's respect as a warrior, Angel also has a slightly patronizing attitude towards Groo, and I think our Pylean warrior-king sees that too.

I've always liked Groo. He deserves better than this. Maybe Groo can be the next rogue demon hunter. Wes should lend him the standard motorcycle and leather jacket....
[> [> Re: Damn, I felt bad for Groo last night (spoilers for The Price) -- Lunarchickk, 19:36:12 04/30/02 Tue

He's given up his throne, his home dimension, and his Prince Valiant wardrobe to be with Cordelia.

How interesting, considering that Cordelia was just waxing eloquent about how she's sacrificed, etc., become part demon for Angel... Cordelia gave up her life as possible starlet for Angel; Groo gave up his life in Pylea (assuming that he wasn't facing imminent death by political coup before he left) for Cordelia.

(And of course we've seen what Angel has done for his son, and Gunn went to Wesley for Fred... somewhat of a theme?)

But I felt really badly for Groo too... and Lilac, I'm so glad someone else pointed out the disturbing Buffy/Spike parallel there. (Is it just because David Fury wrote the episode?) I have the horrible feeling that Groo is devoted enough to Cordelia to put himself in danger or perhaps even sacrifice himself for her -- after all, as cjl
says, it's not like Angel's accepted him as a fellow warrior for the cause...
[> [> [> Well, he did get to make out with Ross's girlfriend on 'Friends'! -- Marie, 07:06:07 05/01/02 Wed

Anyone else warming to Lorne? (mild spoilers) -- The Last Jack, 08:01:05 04/30/02 Tue

I have to admit, when Lorne aka The Host first appeared, I wasn't that impressed. Maybe it was the cliched, flambouyant personality, the fact that more times than not, he was simply a plot device, or, more likely, it was all that damn kareoke ;). I mean lets face it, up until recently, and a few times last season it was pretty much: "Hmm, can't figure this one out, lets go to the host and sing and that should save the day." They'd go, he'd fill up the screen for 5 or so minutes, and then that was it.

Now, however, he is part of the group, and it makes him more interesing. I don't think of him as the Host anymore, I think of him as Lorne, friend to the A Team (sorry, couldn't resist). I hope they keep him out of the club and in the hotel, or if they do resurrect the club scene, build it in the hotel and have him be more involved with the cases.

If they do that, then I wouldn't mind seeing his face in the opening credits :)
[> Lorne and the moral responsibility of the "good German" (spoilers up to The Price) -- Sophist, 08:12:21 04/30/02 Tue

Let's go back to Forgiveness for a moment. Angel has the W&H attorney tied up. He threatens to torture him in order to get access to the power to bring back Sahjan. Lorne, whom I agree was physically unable to stop Angel, is in the room cautioning Angel against both the magic use and the torture. Angel gets what he wants and leaves to go to the White Room. When he returns to the hotel, there is the W&H attorney still tied to the same chair.

Question: What was Lorne doing while Angel was gone? What was his responsibility under the circumstances? And to what extent does he now bear responsibility for the consequences of Angel's resort to such powers?

When you're done with Lorne, let's talk Xander, Anya and Tara.
[> [> Re: Lorne and the moral responsibility of the "good German" (spoilers up to The Price) -- shadowkat, 08:33:45 04/30/02 Tue

Very interesting...yes I wondered the same things.

Why didn't Lorne untie and let Linwood go? Fear of Angel?
Also Lorne does try to convince Angel he should forgive
Wesley, then quickly drops it. Can Lorne have done anything except argue with Angel?

In last night's episode, Angel and Lorne are still arguing.
Angel keeps telling Lorne that although the spell didn't
appear to bring back Connor and was a waste - he'd do it again in a minute no matter what the price. He shows no remorse because Connor is his son and that should be enough.
Lorne states something along the lines of even if it means
getting us all killed and then I believe shuts up. Will have to watch the episode again...when I get the chance.

Also what should Lorne have done regarding Wesley and the kidnapping of Connor? Granted Wesley beat him to a pulp before he got the chance to argue...but was there something he could have done that he didn't do?

I see your link to Xander/Anya/and Tara - these are all characters who have a tendency to not stop someone from doing a bad act - in some ways they appear to almost encourage or enable it.
Tara's solution to stopping Willow was to leave. This did not stop Willow - if anything it made the whole situation worse, Tara's presence had in some sense kept Willow a bit
restrained. In fact Xander says as much in Smashed. "Without Tara, whose going to watch Willow?"

Xander also has a tendency to go along with bad behavior, but he does argue against it at times. He's argued with Willow more than once about magic. Yet, like Lorne, Xander didn't do anything to stop her. And in OAFA he even encourages her to do it to help them out - assuming somewhat arrogantly that he and the others can bring her back. Xander of all people should know the danger of encouraging Willow to do magic. Anya - also knows about the
dangers of Willow doing magic - see Triangle? And she even
cautions Buffy about Willow's use of it. Again in OAFA -
Anya is pressuring Willow to do magic. These actions remind quite a bit of Lorne's in Angel.

Not sure if that's where you were going...but it is certainly an interesting theme for an essay. Are we responsible for the actions of our friends, if we have
the power or ability to stop them? PErfect example: allowing
a friend to drive home drunk.
[> [> [> But isn't that all part of acting like adults? (spoilers up to The Price) -- Marie, 08:46:01 04/30/02 Tue

Learning, I mean, as you grow older, that people have to be allowed to make their own mistakes? Lorne knew, if only by Angel's aura, one assumes, that the fanged-one wasn't to be stopped or persuaded to do other than that which he intended to do. As for letting Linwood go - hey, this is one of W&H's chief directors, or whatever he's called. Lorne could've been letting himself in for some serious grief, had he untied him.

As for Willow - Tara wasn't controlling her. Willow cast at least two spells to make Tara forget - one of them after Tara specifically warned her never to do anything like that again. Xander, I think, has good intentions, and knows that what Willow does is sometimes not right, if not wrong. She has the stronger character, though, and always manages to persuade him to go against his instincts. I have a feeling he'll come good when it counts, though - he always does.

Marie
[> [> [> Standing aside -- Sophist, 09:18:10 04/30/02 Tue

I like all your examples of X/A/T standing aside (not "standing by your side", which would be Giles). However, I was thinking of their acquiescence to the resurrection spell in Bargaining.
[> [> [> [> Re: Standing aside/Bargaining -- shadowkat, 09:37:56 04/30/02 Tue

Oh yeah...thought of that as well. Actually when I was writing it, I was recalling Xander's little speech to Willow about rechecking the rear view mirrors.

It's interesting that these four not only went along with Willow's spell, but also helped her and played an active role in it. Their pictures are also the ones Buffy sees as skeletons in After Life. You could argue that Willow persuaded them with two arguements, both echoed by Tara:

1. Buffy wasn't killed naturally nor did she die of natural causes, mystical energy killed her
2. They don't know where she went, even if they saw her
body, her essence/soul could be in hell like Angel's was
(This is the argument that convinces Xander.)

That said - it is clear in Bargaining, just rewatched that scene on Sunday, that Willow could not have done the spell without their help and active participation. If it weren't
Xander and Anya - she wouldn't have gotten the urn which we learn later is vital to the whole spell.

Also it is interesting who is left out. And even more
interesting - who wants to tell them.

Anya wants to tell Giles - Willow says no
Tara clearly wanted to tell Dawn- again no
Xander clearly wanted to tell Spike (whoa!, watched
that scene three times, and yes Willow looks at Xander when she says they won't tell Spike.) Hence Xander's somewhat
guilty visage when Spike accuses him of not telling him in
AfterLife.

Why were they left out? Willow makes it clear as does Spike
and Giles in the next two episodes.

1. They wouldn't understand. Why?
2. Spike: Magic has consequences. She could have come back
wrong and you'd have to get rid of whatever came back and
I wouldn't let you. (Spike would probably have tried to stop her - Spike tends to be against doing magic as a rule, which makes me wonder how much he knows about it. Clearly more than he lets on.)
3. Giles - If I'd known, I'd bloody well have stopped you.
Also someone with a deep appreciation of magic who knows
it's wrong. Makes me wonder if Giles is more adept than he
lets on.

Back to our three accomplices - they not only actively helped Willow, they also kept it a secret from the people who might have stopped her. I think they are about to pay
for that. There's a reason the first Episodes were called
Bargaining. If Angel's dark magics to bring back Connor had a price - Willow's must too...we just haven't seen it yet?
[> [> [> [> [> Exactly right -- Sophist, 09:55:12 04/30/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Standing aside/Bargaining -- Corwin of Amber, 20:06:05 04/30/02 Tue

>If Angel's dark magics to bring back Connor had a price - Willow's must too...we just haven't seen it yet?

Haven't seen it? Isn't all the misery of the Scoobies this season a consequence of that resurrection spell? Everything thats happening could be a magical balancing of the books.
[> [> [> Responsibilities for others' actions has limits -- Vickie, 09:34:55 04/30/02 Tue

In my book of ethics, one's responsibility for another's actions is affected (possibly among other things), by the danger to oneself.

IMHO, Tara was definitely in danger as long as she was living with Willow. Once she left, she very responsibly made sure that Willow's other friends knew of the problem (but maybe not the personal specifics?) and checked in on Dawn periodically.

For me, her actions were eminently responsible and ethical.

This could apply to Lorne's situation as well, He might, through his psychic sensitivity, have known that he could not sway Angel at the time, just make him angy.
[> [> [> [> Completely agree about Tara -- Sophist, 10:01:07 04/30/02 Tue

Lorne doesn't get off so easily. There was no demonstrated risk to him. Angel had not hurt him in the past and did not threaten to hurt him this time. We can't, of course, know how Angel would have reacted if Lorne had set Linwood free, and Lorne might have feared the consequences, but Lorne certainly was not overpowered or coerced into inaction.
[> [> [> [> Agree on Tara -- shadowkat, 10:18:56 04/30/02 Tue

I completely agree on Tara - Willow really gave her no choice. And Tara did remain in contact with both Buffy and Dawn. Even helped Buffy on occassion - see Dead Things. And
when Tara re-entered the mix, she supported Willow and protected her from Xander and Anya's push to do magic. So yes, you're right on Tara. Staying with Willow probably wouldn't have stopped her.

Not sure about Lorne. He could have left, instead he stayed.
I think I need more information. Have to admit, Ats really hasn't held my attention as much as Buffy. The characters
don't seem as developed for some reason. Maybe because
Ats is only in its three season and Buffy's in its sixth?;-)
[> [> [> [> sorry for all the typos/errors -- Vickie, 11:09:30 04/30/02 Tue

I really need to get some sleep.
[> Re: Anyone else warming to Lorne? (mild spoilers) -- shadowkat, 08:14:26 04/30/02 Tue

Yep - I'm finally starting warm to him as well. I particulary liked him in Forgiving and Sleep Tight.
Last night's episode - he added a needed sense of humor and wit. Actually I have to say the last four episodes of
Angel Loyalty - The Price have been better than usual.

Let's see if they can keep up the momentum.
[> [> Actually I have the opposite response (spoilers for recent AtS) -- matching mole, 08:47:35 04/30/02 Tue

I loved the season 2 Lorne. Funny and mysterious early on, flawed but sympathetic in the Pylea segment. Lately he seems to have become this impotent hand-wringing figure. I didn't really expect Lorne to try and stop Angel from torturing Linwood or carrying out the dark magic - that seems out of character. But I would have expected him to leave - say 'if that's what you're going to do then I don't want any part of it'. He was better in The Price than in most of this season.
[> [> [> Re: Actually I have the opposite response (spoilers for recent AtS) -- verdantheart, 11:35:44 04/30/02 Tue

We all know I'm a Lorne supporter, I just feel he's been a bit underutilized this season. Perhaps they'll put a club in that dining/swimming pool area ...
[> [> [> [> Don't Blame Lorne: He's been out of sorts lately... -- cjl, 11:48:11 04/30/02 Tue

Come on. Give a demon a break. He's just recovered from a homecoming you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy, and his nightclub--his joy, his reason for living--has been destroyed. Twice. Is it any wonder he's been a little lost lately?

Yes. "Caritas at the Hyperion"! I can see the flyers already.
[> [> [> [> [> If you were responding to me, what I meant was we haven't seen enough of him -- verdantheart, 14:18:57 04/30/02 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't Blame Lorne: He's been out of sorts lately... -- anom, 15:21:41 04/30/02 Tue

"Come on. Give a demon a break. He's just recovered from a homecoming you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy, and his nightclub--his joy, his reason for living--has been destroyed. Twice. Is it any wonder he's been a little lost lately?"

Plus he's probably a little reluctant to stand up to anyone after what Wesley did to him. Recent crime victims tend to be skittish in tense or dangerous situations.
[> Re: Anyone else wonder about his Attire!! (mild spoil) -- neaux, 12:01:20 04/30/02 Tue

Why was he dressed up like "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" and dont tell me it was the rain. He looked kinda goofy.

at least later in the show, He looked like a badass when he was walking with Angel. I believe he was wearing a cool blue shirt. He looked very hip and sharp then.
[> [> Re: Anyone else wonder about his Attire!! (mild spoil) -- verdantheart, 14:21:21 04/30/02 Tue

I think the hat was to hide his horns. Not that a hat helps conceal the green much! (Perhaps that's the visual joke of it ...)
[> [> Oh, no, I'm a FASHION SPOILER Trollop! :O -- SingedCat, 12:13:35 05/01/02 Wed

I think he was doing his fashionable best to hide his face going out-- I thought it looked way cool, myself, and I have to say he's definitely a winter-- deep blues, cool reds look very sharp on him, and yes, that shirt made him look pretty sexy.

And once again-- what's with Cordy's hair? This time she's got it covered a lot, which I have to say I don't blame her for--ick, what a cut! CC's also looking like she put on a little weight over the holiday, but whether it was muscle or not I couldn't say. I just wish they'd let her dress decently for a bit, I don't hold with hiding a persona's natural ups & downs in physique. go on, accentuate her curves while she has them, then change the clothes when she does; she'll look great either way!

That's it for fashion in the Angelverse right now. Except Wes should stay away from baggy sweaters. He'd look good in a navy shirt and black trousers. And a shave.

And a large dose of good karma.
[> [> [> Re: Oh, no, I'm a FASHION SPOILER Trollop! :O -- Mr Gordo, 14:50:15 05/01/02 Wed

Cordy has put on weight and Charisma isn't comfortable with it which is why they aren't showing off her body as much. She is planning to exercise and get the weight off I believe. I think she is going to get involved with martial arts? Either way I actually think her curves look great but I can understand her beig uncomfortable working alongside Fred who is practically a stick insect. Fred needs to start chomping on some pancakes.
Can anyone tell me... (Spoilery question for The Price) -- Marie, 08:17:21 04/30/02 Tue

Actually I don't know if it counts as spoilery, but just in case!

...How come Cordy hasn't had some sort of contact with Wesley - or has she? Because they are such loving friends. I just can't imagine that she wouldn't want to find out what the hell happened, even if she's really mad at him.

Thoughts?

Marie
[> Re: Can anyone tell me... (Spoilery question for The Price) -- Lilac, 08:29:13 04/30/02 Tue

I think that Cordelia's attention has been entirely directed at helping Angel. I don't have a very clear idea of how much time is supposed to have passed since she came back, it may only be a couple of days, so I don't think she would have felt comfortable leaving Angel yet. I also think she is probably just as angry at Wesley as everyone else is, so it is not a top priority for her.
[> Re: Can anyone tell me... (Spoilery question for The Price) -- matching mole, 08:36:27 04/30/02 Tue

That was the one jarring note to me in what was otherwise an excellent episode. Fred tries to bring the subject up with her and Cordelia basically refuses to discuss it. This emphasizes her devotion to Angel's cause (along with the Groo thing). But it seems blatantly unrealistic in terms of Cordy's behaviour within the group up to this time. She's never been afraid to speak her mind about what she feels is right or wrong and even if she doesn't want to confront Angel I really can't imagine her not taking matters into her own hands and going to see Wesley. I can see why they did it in terms of the overall plot that seems to be shaping up but it does seem out of character.
[> [> Exactly my point - she's too strong a character to do nothing. -- Marie, 08:48:40 04/30/02 Tue

[> [> [> She has not been above cutting someone out of her life before -- Hauptman, 09:45:48 04/30/02 Tue

I found it a little disquieting that Cordy didn't immediately try to heal this rift in the family or at least go and see if Wesley was okay. But she has cut people out of her life before. Namely Angel himself when he was going all Death wish on Wolfram and Heart. He had to earn his way back slowly (though he cheated a bit by buying her a lot of clothes). Wesley not only took Angel's son, but in a way Cordy's too. Remember that scene with Angel, Conner and Cordy in bed just as cozy as...well, as cozy as a vampire, his impossible son and a former scooby can be. She is hurting, too. And frankly, she might not be above killing Wesley herself if he said the wrong thing. Imagine if Wesley had talked to Cordy the way he spoke to Gunn. He might be back in the hospital.

I was all hopefull that Wes was going to go running to the Hotel and save the day. I'm glad it didn't happen that way. And that scar. Oh, the poor man.
[> [> [> [> Hmmm -- matching mole, 10:11:56 04/30/02 Tue

I can certainly see her being angry at Wesley as you say. In fact it is puzzling that she really didn't seem to express any anger. Last season it was really Angel who shut off communication with the others. They tried to talk with him and he fired them, severed all ties and went off on his own. Wesley's situation is a little different. Although he may have hurt her greatly his action was in no way the sort of personal rejection that Angel carried out in season 2.

My only explanation for Cordelia's reaction (and Gunn's as well) is that they are still in some sort of denial about Wesley's actions. The writers have put in a lot of effort over the last year plus to show Wesley having strong personal relationships with both Cordelia and Gunn. In Gunn's case, pre Fred his link to Wesley was his main link to the group. Cordelia also semed really close to Wesley. In Cordelia's case in particular it seems hard to believe that she will, at least long term, just ignore Wesley's existence.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hmmm -- Derik, 11:35:55 04/30/02 Tue

On the other hand, I think they have also been playing up Wesley's alienation from others over the past season or two... well ever since the beginning he's always seemed the odd man out.

Then there's that whole unresolved stuff about him and his father.
[> [> [> [> [> [> In the bad place -- Hauptman, 15:06:55 04/30/02 Tue

Let's face it, Wes screwed up big time. Alienation? Yes, that is what made it all possible. If he was still best chums with Gunn and still respected Angel...and/or if Cordy had been there, he would not have taken the baby. But in his mind, having been shut out in a way, having become the boss, the resposible one, while everyone else, even the undead, were having romances, sex and babies, this was a bad, bad place. And given the information in the prophecy, he had to get the innocent out of there. The act of saving the baby was a desperate attempt to save himself. Okay, that last line was psychobable, but didn't it sound good? Might be right. At the time he was the most hurt emotionally, so he felt totally right, that he was taking the high road. I am just not sure what he is felling right now. He seems to hate all of them. Hate doens't just sit on the shelf in the A.I. wolrd. It liked to move around. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.
Ahem... tap tap tap. Is this thing on? I have an announcement! -- Masquerade, 10:34:31 04/30/02 Tue

I want to announce the engagement of two of our own, Aquitaine and mundusmundi! They met here on the board and kindled a romance together. So congratulate them!

Wishing you two all the happiness in the world,

Masq

[> Wowzers!! Congratulations both! -- LittleBit, 10:36:33 04/30/02 Tue


[> Congrats to both!! Woo Hoo!! -- neaux, 10:37:24 04/30/02 Tue


[> [> Ditto on the "Woo Hoo!!" -- VampRiley, 13:14:37 04/30/02 Tue


[> Re: Ahem... tap tap tap. Is this thing on? I have an announcement! -- CW, 10:50:29 04/30/02 Tue

Aquitaine said she had a finance', but I didn't know it was mundus. What a great couple! Long life, and much happiness, you two!

[> Congratulations to the happy couple -- Kimberly, 10:55:57 04/30/02 Tue

May you both find joy, happiness and many wonderful years of love together.

:-)

[> Wishing you both bliss -- Vickie, 10:59:46 04/30/02 Tue

As an old married broad, I can tell you that married life is the best! A ton of work, but the best!

Work hard at it and be very very happy.

[> Aww...that is so great! Many felicitations to the both of you! -- Deeva, 11:08:42 04/30/02 Tue


[> Re: An Existential Scooby Marriage?! -- Dedalus, 11:13:04 04/30/02 Tue

Well, well, well.

One question - is this going to be a Buffy-themed wedding?

Love and best wishes,

Ded

[> Yay! Is this the first ATPoBtVS wedding? Much happiness and long life to the happy couple! -- Caroline, 11:30:52 04/30/02 Tue


[> Re: Ahem... tap tap tap. Is this thing on? I have an announcement! -- dream of the consortium, 11:37:16 04/30/02 Tue

Wow. Internet life really can spill over into real life. Well, congratulations! If anyone comes around on the big day claiming to be a mundismundi/Aquitaine from the future - just don't listen. Walk away.

[> And here I thought dH and Rah would be the first ES couple to get married -- vampire hunter D, 12:09:55 04/30/02 Tue


[> Congrats... -- Darby, 12:29:19 04/30/02 Tue

And remember, you'll have limited opportunities in life to introduce your "financier." (Young Frankenstein reference, but I'm sure most of you know that.)

So when do we all get virtual invites to a virtual service? I'll get a virtual gift!

[> Best Wishes for you both. -- Arethusa, 12:43:09 04/30/02 Tue


[> Mazel Tov! -- ponygirl, 12:44:46 04/30/02 Tue


[> Wishing you a definitely non-ME style 'ship (hence very long term) -- Lilac, 12:53:40 04/30/02 Tue


[> [> Ditto -- Sophist, 13:16:40 04/30/02 Tue


[> Félicitation et tous mes voeux de bonheur à tous les deux -- Ete, 13:16:39 04/30/02 Tue


[> At the risk of being repetitious -- matching mole, 13:24:33 04/30/02 Tue

or rather the certainty of same, I offer, once again, my congratulations.

May you long enjoy each other's company in the nation of your choice.

[> Congratulations! May you be truly happy together! -- verdantheart, 14:13:02 04/30/02 Tue


[> Dude, the kid is always the last to pick up these things. Anywho, Congratulations :) -- AngelVSAngelus, 14:22:46 04/30/02 Tue

May you transfer your souls to each other without the interruption of a casino demon =D

[> Wonderful news!!! Congratulations...:):):):):):):):):):):) -- Rufus, 15:34:18 04/30/02 Tue


[> That is so cool! True love springs from the ATPoBtVS forum!! Congrats, guys! -- Rob, 16:39:35 04/30/02 Tue


[> We'd like to thank all of you for your good wishes... -- Aquimundus, 17:36:52 04/30/02 Tue

for the advice (taken under advisement! LOL) and the good company. And we'd like to thank Masquerade for providing the link that brought us together.

OK. Bring on the "Entropy" tsunami of posts! (smile)

- Aquimundus

[> [> Aquimundus? Does that translate to "Waterworld?" ;o) -- Wisewoman, 17:12:02 05/02/02 Thu

Dear Aquitaine and mm--

What wonderful news! I'm so excited and happy for you both, and hey, I'm not supposed to get excited, so I'm gonna go lie down now... (just kidding).

Are you gonna be Canadians or Americans?

xoxoxoxo
dubdub

[> [> [> a wedding announcement & a dubdub post--2 happy moments! -- anom, 18:27:15 05/02/02 Thu


[> [> [> Yeah, WW! Hope you are getting better so you can come back and join us! - - Masq, 09:30:53 05/03/02 Fri


[> Wow! Congrats! Is there an ATPoBtVS Wedding Registry yet? ;-) -- Solitude1056, 19:25:33 04/30/02 Tue


[> All the best things in life start with marriage. Congratulations and best wishes! -- Lunarchickk, 19:25:57 04/30/02 Tue


[> woo and hoo!!! congratulations to you both!!!! :) -- Kerri, 19:32:48 04/30/02 Tue


[> *He Thinks, therefore We Marry*... :-) ... :-) -- OnM, 20:01:17 04/30/02 Tue

*******

So are you inviting Joss?

And Aqui-- you're not going to have Anya pick the bridesmaid's dresses are you?

Live long and metaphor...


*******

[> [> What do you mean by we????....;) -- Rufus, 01:10:05 05/02/02 Thu


[> [> [> Allright, *THEY Marry*... picky, picky picky! ... ;-) Depends on the perspective, ya know! -- OnM, 16:55:54 05/02/02 Thu


[> "It's not uncommon, you know. Two people, in theworkplace...." -- Wilder, 20:23:07 04/30/02 Tue


[> Good lord -- Congrats!!! -- yuri, 23:28:38 04/30/02 Tue

Two of the people here that I most respect, what wonderful wonderful news. You guys should have a few seats at your wedding with computers on them linked to a chat room where we're all making akward wedding conversation or emoticoning ourselves up the wall.

[> Congratulations!! And how apt your favourite quote, mm... -- Marie, 01:15:37 05/01/02 Wed

...though maybe it should be changed to "...two people, on the board..."!


Marie

[> Congratulations! -- Rattletrap, 05:51:58 05/01/02 Wed


[> Congratulations! -- ravenhair, 12:33:37 05/01/02 Wed


[> Buffy bringing people together :) ... Congratulations guys. -- JCC, 13:38:39 05/01/02 Wed


[> "That was unexpected." -- Isabel, 17:35:29 05/01/02 Wed

Congratulations and I hope you have many happy years together.

Now, mundus, um ... you didn't ask unless you intended to go through with it, right? ;-) Just kidding. I figure you've got more sense than someone we could all mention.

[> My congrats as well - it seems Masq. has created a marriage service -- gds, 19:42:14 05/01/02 Wed


[> [> But like a vengeance demon, I can't seem to marry myself off... -- Masq, 09:29:13 05/02/02 Thu


[> [> [> Re: But like a vengeance demon, I can't seem to marry myself off... -- gds, 16:25:10 05/02/02 Thu

It a shame this site doesn't have a real-world equivalent. As at least 2 romances here attest, the virtual can become real, but real world version would have face-to-face meetings lubricated by pizza etc. A place to hang out with interesting people, without needing to be alone to do so.

[> Re: Ahem... tap tap tap. Is this thing on? I have an announcement! -- O'Cailleagh, 03:08:41 05/02/02 Thu

Congratulations to you both, I'd like to wish you both a very happy life together.
Blessed Be.

[> Oh, well done! Congratulations! -- Humanitas, 12:48:56 05/02/02 Thu


[> Congratulations, felicitations and some Donne -- fresne, 08:30:10 05/03/02 Fri

Eclogue for the Marriage of the Earl of Somerset

Now, as in Tullia's tomb, one lamp burnt clear,
Unchanged for fifteen hundred year,
May these love-lamps we here enshrine,
In warmth, light, lasting, equal the divine.
Fire ever doth aspire,
And makes all like itself, turns all to fire,
But ends in ashes ; which these cannot do,
For none of these is fuel, but fire too.
This is joy's bonfire, then, where love's strong arts
Make of so noble individual parts
One fire of four inflaming eyes, and of two loving hearts.

[> Congratulations and Best Wishes to you both!! -- purplegrrl, 12:42:39 05/03/02 Fri


[> Congratulations! Wishing you many years of happiness!!! -- cynesthesia, fervent Aquitaine/mundusmundi 'shipper, 04:03:41 05/04/02 Sat


Silly Cordelia moments (Buffy season 3 - killing time til 8 -- LittleBit, 15:18:49 04/30/02 Tue

[qoutes from Pysche's transcripts.]

In Dead Man's Party:

Cordelia: I'm the dip.
Everyone looks at her. She doesn't notice and continues reading.
Xander: Uh, you gotta admire the purity of it. (chuckles)
Cordelia: (looks up at everyone) What? Onion dip. Stirring, *not* cooking. It's what I bring.

In The Prom:

Wesley: No, of course not. Unless you count the nights you made the lowerclassmen get up as girls and watched them ... (stops on Giles's look) Dip is tasty, isn't it?
Cordelia enters in her new dress. Wesley is struck by a coughing.
Giles is not facing the door and looks askance.
Wesley: Sauce is hot. (another lingering shot of Cordy) Very hot.

Cordelia is the dip!!!! lol :D:D:D
Spoilers for Entropy -- VampRiley, 18:10:39 04/30/02 Tue

Spanya!!! Spanya!!! Spanya!!!

I've never really been a shipper before, for anything. Not for a show or a work of literature, nothing. But now...drunk or sober...I WANT MY SPANYA, DAMN IT!!!!



VR
[> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- shadowkat, 18:50:24 04/30/02 Tue

All I can say is Marsters truly can generate chemistry with anyone. That scene was hotter than any of the Xander
and Anya scenes. I fell in love with Spike again.

And - I'm sorry, was it just my imagination or did Spike show more empathy for Anya in that scene than anyone else did in the whole show? She even thanked him and said it was the first time in a long while that she felt someone understood. She wanted to feel wanted, needed and so did he
and boy did I feel for them. Didn't feel any sympathy for Xander or Buffy. Trying to decide is it just me?

So I agree - it's a shame Spanya can't be. But it was clear when they parted that the sex wasn't what either had wanted and did not really erase their pain. If anything it just increased it.

Rambling hope that made sense...;-)
[> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Liz, 18:57:56 04/30/02 Tue

It's not just you.

That comiserating conversation was one of the more touching things that has happened in a while. Not that I think the two of them belong together, but it was tender and kind of sweet.

I had ZERO sympathy for Xander who showed up as if he had some kind of right in this matter. He had none. I understand that it hurt, and I have some sympathy for that, but he acted as if spike&anya was all about him. As if they knew he was watching--what the hell?
[> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Lunarchickk, 19:23:15 04/30/02 Tue

Count me as another who found Spike and Anya's commiseration touching and heartbreaking. (Although I confess, the lost looks on their faces as they parted made me more sad for them than shipping for them.) The last Spike and Anya scene I can recall -- is it Where the Wild Things Are? -- where they're bonding over being demons, is also touching and funny. And ok, maybe JM can have chemistry with air, but he's also a good actor, as is EC, and they really sold the scene.

I think (hope) we're meant to see Buffy and Xander as being in the wrong here. Xander's clearly gone off the deep end -- after all, he left her at the altar and still assumes there's a "we"? Even Buffy and Willow express some surprise that he still wants to get back together with her when he reappears after the non-wedding, and earlier in Entropy, Buffy tells him that he needs to give Anya space. But Xander is self-righteous guy, and in his pain can only be defensive (as we've seen him do so many other times).

On the same note, at least Buffy doesn't do the self-righteous thing too -- she acknowledges that she told him to move on with her line, "Didn't take you long" (paraphrasing). But when she walks away following Xander, I can't help but think we're meant to see a parallel there, between the two of them, perhaps in their both having left the people who just hurt them? Although, she just seems more shamed than conflicted.

BTW, I agree with Liz on Xander's ridiculous "all about him" attitude... I guess he thought Anya thought that word would get back to him about her and Spike... But the ironic thing is, after spending the entire day trying her hardest to wreak vengeance on Xander, the one thing she does out of pain and need is the one thing that hurts him the most.

*sigh* Oh, the pain... perhaps it all comes back to "You always hurt the ones you love..."
[> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Lunarchickk, 19:44:54 04/30/02 Tue

The last Spike and Anya scene I can recall -- is it Where the Wild Things Are? -- where they're bonding over being demons, is also touching and funny.

It's always sad when you realize you misremembered a scene, but especially right after you posted something about it. *sigh* So i was reading shadowkat's great post below about Anya, Spike, Angel, and vengeance and found the scene I was thinking of. Even more poignant given what's just happened... *sigh again*

SPIKE: It's a terrible thing, love is. I been there myself. (Pause) It ended badly.
ANYA: Of course it did. It always does. Seen a thousand relationships. First there's the love, and sex, and then there's nothing left but the vengeance. That's how it works.
SPIKE: You and I ... should just go do the vengeance. Both of us! You eviscerate Xander, and I'll stake Dru. Like a project.

"Both of us!" *sniffle* And we never saw it coming (well, outside of the spoilers, I guess)
[> [> [> [> [> Man, I knew fifteen minutes into this episode that the deluge of Xander bashing would start again... -- AngelVSAngelus, 20:44:21 04/30/02 Tue

Not that others don't have a right and perogative to state their own opinions of the Zeppo, I'm just stating mine, and I happen to love the XanMan as much as any other character on the show.
Isn't the vengeful attitude that Xander harbors in the latter half of the episode the very same attitude that Anya harbors in its first? Did you hear the wishes she was attempting to make reality for him?
Clearly one of the lessons to be garnered from the episode, like the most recent chapter of Angel, is that vengeance is self destructive and counterproductive, and it rests on the heads of both Xander and Anya to illustrate that.
Xander didn't seem to me to assume there was still a 'we' after his alter-abandoning, but instead hope that the aforementioned 'we' could be recreated. He knew he'd hurt Anya and wanted to fix that, he admitted to his mistake and attempted to repent. In that portion of the episode Xander is on the prim and proper side of the table of redemption and Anya on the wrong one, and later, inversely, the tables turn. Both heads, friends, both heads.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Not bashing -- shadowkat, 07:11:49 05/01/02 Wed

We're not bashing Xander, and if it sounded that way, I'm sorry, didn't mean too.

What I've been seeing this year is an interesting trend. A trend where the three main Scoobies, Xander/Willow/and Buffy are basically causing their own trauma and living out their own worst nightmares. I posted two essays some time ago regarding Spike and Anya =shadow selves and Buffy and
Xander - dealing with the monster. In both essays I address how truly complicated this situation is. If you want to see them again - here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/shadowkatbtvs/index.html

Xander has been Captain Fear all season. He appears to be internally at least in his Restless Dream, making horrible
mistakes out of fear. (Such as summoning the demon in OMWF) He does acknowledge this, repeatedly. But I'm sorry in life acknowledgement isn't enough. His treatment of Anya this year out fear has been deplorable - he has made fun of her, called her rude, put off telling their friends about their engagement for six months, and finally broken his promise to her and left her at the wedding. When he does apologize - what does he apologize for? He apologizes for
leaving her to take care of all of the guests. He does not apologize for calling off the wedding. Only for waiting so long to do it. Remember The Gift?
I just rewatched that episode - there is a poignant scene where Xander proposes and Anya hits him, telling him that
he's only doing it to be romantic and the world is ending and she doesn't want him to propose unless he really means it because she can't take it otherwise. He promises her that he means it. Then what happens? He bows out. He comes back and tells her well no he has no intention of marrying her now but he wants to get back together. This scene is very well written - because if you watch it carefully you are in both points of view at the same time and up till now, we've really spent all of our time in Xander and Buffy and Willow's point of view - now we are suddenly in Anya's and Spike's - we are shown on a deep emotional level the pain these two are feeling and boy was I jolted by it. IF you weren't - watch it again. Back to Xander - I knew what Xander was trying to say, I felt Xander's pain. He wanted to fix things, but he didn't want to "go upstairs" and
"revisit his parents nightmare". He thought it was simple.
But at the end of the show - you can tell it's not. What he says to her is the same thing he said to her in the dream
he had in Hells Bells - he can't forgive her for sleeping with a demon. It's NOT that she slept with someone else that bugs him as much as it is that she slept with an "undead, evil thing". (HE says I can never forgive you, never be with you after you touched that!) Maybe it was just me - but that statement felt incredibly racist and sounded like Xander's father in HB. Xander has a lot of rage inside him. His comment to Anya - not only hurt
Anya it really devastated Buffy. When he realizes why it hurts Buffy - he runs, he doesn't try to be kind to Buffy in any way and in Xander's defense - he is in shock. The two together are too much for him. And Xander has consistently hated demons - which is why it is sooo ironic that he keeps dating them. I felt complicated things for Xander in this episode: One moment I wanted to hug him, the next slap him, the next comfort him, the next shake him, the next tell him it's okay and the next drive a stake through his heart. It was a rollercoaster ride. I felt the same dang things for Buffy.

Spike - I wanted to shake at the beginning of the episode, then my heart just bleed for him. He seemed in so much pain.
Anya - I wanted to shake at the beginning of the episode, then my heart bled for her as well. She goes to everyone in the show, and no one helps. Only Spike does. All Xander had to tell her was that it wasn't about her. He had to tell her that he was afraid of being his father, of hurting her. Instead what he tells her is that they can't get married. He loves her but he no longer wants to marry her now. He does not say why. So all she hears is the fact that he does not want to marry her. Believe me that hurts. It makes her feel bad, b/c as she tells Spike - she's convinced it's her. She's reliving every bad phrase, insult, Xander's ever said.

Spike has the same feelings, the same pain. What does he say? "She said it wasn't real for her?" He doesn't understand either. But unlike Anya - Spike's pain is more visceral. Buffy has told Spike that a)she doesn't trusts
him (the video camera) b)that she can never love him or
return his affections c) he has to move on and d) pretty
much indicates the whole experience they had meant nothing to her. It wasn't real. Boy - I've been in Spike's shoes, that is painful. If you haven't had that experience - you are incredibly lucky, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I wanted to reach through the tv screen and hit Buffy.
But yes I saw Buffy's pain - it was very contained, but there. She is struggling with self-hatred. Struggling with her own inner turmoil. The only way she can deal with this turmoil is to contain it, not to react. But we do see breaks in the mask: 1) Anya who talks about the guys in Buffy's life and Buffy insists there were only 4. (which
threw me, guess she counted PArker) then she dropped to
3. And she looks flustered and embarrassed. 2) When she's with Dawn she seems very awkward. Uncertain what to say or do with her sister, and it all feels wrong. 3) She can't quite figure out how to comfort Xander or Anya. 4)When Xander suggests it's Spike who planted the video camera- she freaks and goes to him about it. Although her face appears to be calm and reserved, I felt it was a brittle mask and she was struggling to contain herself in his presence. 5) When we see the video,
Buffy looks like she's barely holding back the tears. Dawn notices Buffy's expression and that's how Dawn finds out about Buffy and Spike. Dawn actually appears to be understanding. I also got the feeling that Dawn was more concerned about the fact that Buffy felt she had to keep it a secret than that it had happened, but that could just be me. 6)When Willow mentions the ax being missing - Buffy rushes off to stop Xander from killing Spike. (Although I wasn't completely sure who they were more worried about Spike or Anya.) 7) Buffy looks like she's retreating inward when she sees Xander's reaction to the news she slept with spike. The look of utter shame and pain on her face made me want to cry.

So let's just say - I think it was impossible not to feel for all four characters in this episode. The acting was amazing. And the emotions the writers elicited from me were a literal roller-coaster ride. It was the most emotionally intense episode of Btvs I think I've seen in a while.

Hope this made sense. Not feeling really coherent this morning.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not bashing -- JBone, 16:40:08 05/01/02 Wed

What he says to her is the same thing he said to her in the dream he had in Hells Bells - he can't forgive her for sleeping with a demon. It's NOT that she slept with someone else that bugs him as much as it is that she slept with an "undead, evil thing". (HE says I can never forgive you, never be with you after you touched that!) Maybe it was just me - but that statement felt incredibly racist and sounded like Xander's father in HB. Xander has a lot of rage inside him.

I saw Xander taking this a lot more personally than Anya banging some random demon. I think he takes special exception that it was Spike, someone who he has always hated and felt little more than comtempt for. He is royally pissed off to the point of doing something really stupid or walking away, permanently.
[> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Doriander, 19:42:26 04/30/02 Tue

As if they knew he was watching--what the hell?

The whole thing was just unfortunate. Damn Willow's brilliance! Damn the geeks! It was comfort sex for both. It could have ended without incident, barring the sex. They started with this vicious intent on hurting Xander, they progressed to venting their feelings. They found in each other someone that can wholly empathize, someone that pets their bruised egos. They had consensual comfort sex, parted, plans on wishing Xander ill dissipated. It could have been some progress for both of them. That it was being monitored was just so freakin unfortunate. Damn gnome! I recall last seeing rows of them in "Restless" outside of Spike's crypt, where Giles called him a sideshow freak, cameras snapping. hmmm.

I feel sorry for all of four of them.

At least Willow and Tara are happy.
[> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Anne, 20:32:26 04/30/02 Tue

I agree with you on pretty much every point. Anya is not a favorite of mine, but she shone tonight with Marsters. I didn't look forward to this scene but it wound up being one of the few oases of kindness and tenderness in a dark season.
And you couldn't help kind of agreeing with Spike that he and Anya are the most alive people on the show at the moment.

Buffy's continued snippy sarcasm and condescension to Spike amounts to a continuation of her abusiveness during the sexual relationship. Glad she had such a great epiphany in "Normal Again" (was that number three? or four?). Thought the line about "I tried to kill my friends and they don't hate me at all, so there" amounted to an "I can get away with anything i want to" and as such was grossly inappropriate. (Though that may well have been a deliberate pride-goeth-before-a-fall thing, given how Xander reacted to the news that she had had sex with Spike).

And I do think -- perhaps I should tell you here that my posting name on the C&S is monkey, not trying to be sneaky, just having trouble picking a posting name I like -- that this episode again shows that Spike does not conform to the classic definition of a sociopath. He has capacity for empathy, which is brought out in scenes where other people show emotional weakness or vulnerability. Anger and fearfulness don't do anything for him, but when he sees open pain he responds. He did it tonight with Anya, as everyone knows he's done it with Buffy and Dawn -- and this scene tonight reminded me that in the Initiative, although he was obviously a horrible predator at the beginning of the scene, as soon as Willow started showing her emotional weakness an vulnerability he was particularly kind and supportive to her.

Okay, it's not "broad band" empathy, but he is capable of showing it on occasion, under certain circumstances, and not only with people whose last name is Summers.
[> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- shadowkat, 07:23:59 05/01/02 Wed

"that this episode again shows that Spike does not conform to the classic definition of a sociopath. He has capacity for empathy, which is brought out in scenes where other people show emotional weakness or vulnerability. Anger and fearfulness don't do anything for him, but when he sees open pain he responds. He did it tonight with Anya, as everyone knows he's done it with Buffy and Dawn - - and this scene tonight reminded me that in the Initiative, although he was obviously a horrible predator at the beginning of the scene, as soon as Willow started showing her emotional weakness an vulnerability he was particularly kind and supportive to her."

I got the same impression - so glad I wasn't the only one.
(Been second guessing some of my impressions lately ;-) )
Spike even says - and I adore this line, it is ironic: "I wouldn't have left you at the altar and I'm supposedly a soulless, evil thing or so everyone keeps saying." (not exact, but awfully close!) He is the only one who empathisizes with her all day. I know, naysayers could argue
he was pretending to have sex with her, but I didn't get that at all. In fact in the first part of the scene it seemed she was trying to get him to wish Xander harm and he just wasn't getting it. It wasn't until they'd literally finished the bottle, that either considered the sex. And he did partly because of what she said - "Thank you.." (he's offering her the last glass of whiskey and he assumes that's
why she's thanking him) "Noo..I mean thank you" she takes his hand and their eyes meet. "This is the first time...in long time that I've felt anyone's understood...heard me" Oh I wish I remembered the exact lines...but I fell in love with Spike again last night. And I really had troubles
with Buffy and Xander and I think I was supposed to.
I think the writers are about to pull a fast one...

At any rate - I completely agree with you. If ME thinks Spike is a sociopath, they've never met a sociopath and have no clue what one is.
[> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- ponygirl, 08:00:19 05/01/02 Wed

Agreed with all you said. No matter what the writers say in interviews (EVEEEL, I tells ya!) Spike has not really been portrayed other than sympathetically. Of course I have sympathy for all the characters, even when they make big big mistakes, so maybe it's just good writing. Still, even Spike's hurtful "it was good enough for Buffy" line was delivered in defence of Anya. Hmm, maybe this is part of the inner demons theme this year, our human heroes are becoming far less kind than the actual demons.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Sophist, 13:26:39 05/01/02 Wed

I agree about Spike's line, though we could see it also as a deliberate dig at Xander and Buffy. However, what struck me was the Buffy should have delivered that line. Buffy should have stood up for Anya and said "Don't you dare condemn Anya, I did it too." If she had, no one would doubt that the motivation was to defend Anya. And, in context, I think that's what Spike did.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed -- ponygirl, 19:28:49 05/01/02 Wed

The fact that it wasn't Buffy that delivered the line, even after Spike gave her a pause in which to do so, shows that she still has a long way to go. It was great to see the more focused post-Normal Again Buffy, but at the same time she seemed very off to me. Her flipness seemed too forced, and her pained expressions more like attempts to see how firmly she could press her lips together. It may have been the writing/performance, but to give everyone the benefit of the doubt it seems that Buffy is determined to control her emotions by repressing. Hasn't worked well for her in the past, and it seems to be causing real emotional cowardice like her failure to defend Anya.
[> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Rattletrap, 20:02:24 05/01/02 Wed

"Spike even says - and I adore this line, it is ironic: "I wouldn't have left you at the altar and I'm supposedly a soulless, evil thing or so everyone keeps saying." (not exact, but awfully close!) He is the only one who empathisizes with her all day."

It seems to me that Spike is the only person from whom Anya truly seeks empathy, and that only after her initial plan fails. In the series of intercut conversations with W/T, Buffy, and Dawn the conversation turns immediately to liquifying entrails or something else equally horrid. That the girls refused to follow the conversation down that road is hardly a testimony to a lack of empathy. Anya tries the same tack with Spike, but his own misery derails the conversation into more empathetic territory.
[> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- luvthistle1, 20:37:34 04/30/02 Tue

No it wasn't just you. I neither felt sympathy for Xander or Buffy. Xaner broke up with Anya, and Buffy broke it off with Spike. I feel that neithe have a right to pass judgement on Spike or Anya.
[> [> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Selena, 20:50:00 04/30/02 Tue

I didn't see it as an either-or thing. I felt sympathy for all four of them, but especially Anya.
And I have to say I loved Buffy in this episode. In her scenes with Dawn, in her scene with Anya, and in her scenes with Spike. Yes, Spike was hurt, but she wasn't being insulting - she was being honest. It wasn't what he wanted to hear, which is not her fault.
The only one passing judgement on anyone else was Xander, which usually annoys me, but in this case NB played hurt Xander so well that I did feel sorry for him.
[> [> Re: Speaking of chemistry -- verdantheart, 06:44:19 05/01/02 Wed

Agree totally. What I can't understand is why casting agents don't seem to be beating down Mr M's door with movie offers. He's spending hiatus with his band.
[> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- Akita, 20:32:24 04/30/02 Tue

I've always liked Xander -- really, I have. But when Anya let him have it toward the end of the ep., my response was "you go, girl"! He has been such a self-righteous prat of late. And even before this season, I got a bit tired of him always putting her down in public.

I thought Marsters and Caulfield were brilliant together. I'm not talkin' a 'ship here (although I wouldn't object -- it won't happen). Just two good actors doing a difficult scene really, really well. (And now that Giles is gone, these are my two favorite characters on the show anyway.)

I like it that the drinking scene wasn't played for laughs, nor for too much angst. I liked it that they weren't sloppy, falling down drunk. I liked it that they were kind to each other. I liked it that they were embarrassed when it was over. IOW, it played real.

And it was so touching at the end, after spending a day trying to get someone to wish Xander ill, when Spike finally says "I wish . . . ," Anya says quietly, "Don't."

Gotta say I never thought of Giles as a bourbon man, though.


Akita
"It's all right. I have more scotch." -- Giles (Something Blue)
[> Names of shippyness-es -- VampRiley, 20:45:25 04/30/02 Tue

It's late...I'm wired...and I had a thought as I was getting what is probably my second to last glass of orange juice for the day.

I was thinking of how names are merged for the shows to show relationships sexual or not (and some fanfic, as well).

*Warning -- some of these aren't official, this is what happened when I tried to moosh their names together.*

There is of course:

1) Spanya (Spike/Anya)

and...

2) Spuffy (Spike/Buffy)

But what about the others:

3) Dake, Dike or Spawn (Dawn/Spike)

4) Fuffy or Baith (Faith/Buffy)

5) Coz (Cordy/Oz)

6) Wike or Spillow (Willow/Spike)

7) Bander or Xuffy (Buffy/Xander)

8) Tillow or Wara (Willow/Tara)

9) Gike or Spiles (Giles/Spike)

10) Spander or Xike (Spike/Xander) I like Spander -- sounds funny.

11) Bungel or Angeffy (Buffy/Angel)

12) Funn or Gred (Fred/Gunn -- Okay. I'm just reaching for this one)

13) Croo or Grody (Groo/Cordy)

14) Ginny or Jeles (Jenny/Giles)

15) Dordy or Coyle (Cordy/Doyle)

16) Giyce or Jolies (Joyce/Giles)

17) Filkins or Waith (Wilkins[Mayor]/Faith)

18) Biley or Ruffy (Buffy/Riley)

19) Werdy or Cesley (Wes/Cordy)

20) Annor or Congel (Connor/Angel)

21) Wed or Fres(ley) (Wes/Fred)

22) Ligel or Anlah (Lilah/Angel)

23) Ansey or Lingel (Lindsey/Angel)

24) Linlah or Lisey (Lindsey/Lilah)

25) Livin or Gavlah (Lilah/Gavin)


VR
[> [> lol. Fuffy, Bander, Grody, Fresley. muy divertido. -- yuri, 23:39:45 04/30/02 Tue

[> [> Re: Names of shippyness-es -- Doriander, 05:54:52 05/01/02 Wed

Just got off TWoP and came upon one that cracked me up. Spandrew (Spike/Andrew). "He's so cool. I mean, the girl's hot too." Heh.
[> [> And don't forget.... -- vampire hunter D, 06:07:01 05/01/02 Wed

Donnor or Cawn (Dawn/Connor)

and (and I have seen fics of this):

Duffy or Bawn (Buffy /Dawn)
your Eeeeeeewwws go here
[> [> Just so long as we don't get Rike/Spiley ;) -- verdantheart, 06:42:10 05/01/02 Wed

[> [> My favorite is still Spankya (Spike/Anyanka) *shout out to the TWOP board* -- vandalia, 20:09:16 05/01/02 Wed

[> [> [> Spank-ya -- lol!!!!!!! -- VampRiley, 11:05:20 05/02/02 Thu

[> [> what about the real ones? -- anom, 09:13:11 05/02/02 Thu

Aquimundi already named themselves in another thread (well, they're certainly not Mundaine!). And for our other couple...Rahblay? or should we just say d'Hael with it? (the naming--not the 'ships!)
[> Re: Spoilers for Entropy -- vampire hunter D, 06:08:41 05/01/02 Wed

Spike and Anya are more suited to each other anyway. More so than any of the couples (with the possible exception of Willow/Tara)

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