September 2003 posts
Best
Performers -- Claudia, 13:03:34 09/22/03 Mon
Who would be your choices for the Top Five Actors/Actresses who
portray regular characters in the BtVS & AtS television series?
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Who would be your choices for the "Top Five Actors/Actresses
who portrayed recurring characters in the BtVS & AtS television
series?
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Replies:
[> Best Performers (BtVS/AtS) -- cjl, 13:32:55 09/22/03
Mon
Top Five Actors/Actresses on BtVS/AtS (Regular Characters)
1. James Marsters
2. Alexis Denisof
3. Alyson Hannigan
4. Anthony Stewart Head
5. Emma Caulfield
(Somewhere, there's a space for Seth Green, but I still resent
him for running out on us and getting famous.)
Top Five Actors/Actresses on BtVS/AtS (Recurring Characters)
1. Stephanie Romanov
2. Kristine Sutherland
3. Amber Benson
4. Juliet Landau
5. Julie Benz
(What can I say? I likes the women. Danny Strong and, recently,
Jonathan Woodward are down around 7 and 8.)
[> [> Re: Best Performers (BtVS/AtS) -- Arethusa,
14:09:36 09/22/03 Mon
Why Hannigan? Her face is wonderfully expressive, but her range
isn't huge. Her anger more often seems like a monotone petulance,
at least to me, and her mannerisms at times came dangerously close
to being cutesy.
1.Alexis Denisof (brilliant at comedy and drama)
2.James Marsters
3.Sarah Michelle Gellar
4.Anthony Stewart Head
5.Emma Caulfield/David Boreanaz (based on Season 4 work)
I would substitute Vincent Kartheiser for Amber Benson, because
while they both are very good, VK had the more demanding role.
[> Re: Best Performers -- Cactus Watcher, 14:31:57
09/22/03 Mon
Regulars
1 Sarah Michelle Geller
2 James Marsters
3 Anthony Stewart Head
4 Emma Caulfield
5 Alex Denisof
reoccuring
1 Harry Groener
2 Eliza Dushku
3 Juliette Landau
4 Robia LaMorte
5 Robin Sachs
[> [> Re: Best Performers -- Claudia, 15:19:56
09/22/03 Mon
Might as well put in my choices:
Regulars
1 James Marsers
2 Sarah Michelle Geller
3 Anthony Stewart Head
4 Alyson Hannigan
5 Alex Denisof
reoccuring
1 Harry Groener
2 Juliette Landau
3 Stephanie Romanov
4 Eliza Dukshu
5 D.B. Woodside
[> Re: Best Performers -- s'kat, 15:26:46 09/22/03
Mon
Who would be your choices for the Top Five Actors/Actresses who
portray regular characters in the BtVS & AtS television series?
1.James Marsters (best in comedy and drama)
2.Alexis Denisof
3.Anthony Stewart Head
4.Alyson Hannigan
5.Sarah Michelle Gellar
Honorable Mentions: Vincent K (Connor), Amy Acker, Michelle Trachenburg,
*Based on consistency of performance
Who would be your choices for the "Top Five Actors/Actresses
who portrayed recurring characters in the BtVS & AtS television
series?
1. Eliza Dusku
2.Harry Groener
3.Robin Sachs (Ethan Rayne)
4.Juliet Landau
5.Romia La Mort (jenny)
Honorable Mentions: Glenn Quin, Jonathan Levinson, Adam Busch,
Jonathan Woodward (he only had one), Julie Benze, Amber Benson,
and the actor who played Holtz
[> [> Re: Best Performers -- skpe, 07:29:41 09/23/03
Tue
Who would be your choices for the Top Five Actors/Actresses who
portray regular characters in the BtVS & AtS television series?
geting the list down to 5 in each catagory was tough but my list
is
1. Sarah Michelle Gellar
2. James Marsters
3. Alyson Hannigan
4. Emma Caulfield
5. Anthony Stewart Head
Who would be your choices for the "Top Five Actors/Actresses
who portrayed recurring characters in the BtVS & AtS television
series?
1. Eliza Dushku
2. Amber Benson
3. Stephanie Romanov
4. Harry Groener
5. Romia La Mort
[> Re: Best Performers -- Rook, 15:35:05 09/22/03
Mon
Who would be your choices for the Top Five Actors/Actresses who
portray regular characters in the BtVS & AtS television series?
1. SMG
2. Alexis Denisof
3. James Marsters
4. ASH
5. Michelle Trachtenberg
Who would be your choices for the "Top Five Actors/Actresses
who portrayed recurring characters in the BtVS & AtS television
series?
1. Eliza Dushku
2. Harry Groener
3. Juliet Landau
4. Christian Kane
5. Stephanie Romanov
[> Re: Best Performers -- RJA, 15:41:20 09/22/03
Mon
Who would be your choices for the Top Five Actors/Actresses who
portray regular characters in the BtVS & AtS television series?
1. Sarah Michelle Gellar, who is, even in terms of the show, an
incredibly underrated actor (just not in this threat it seems
to me). Who Are You really made me pay attention, but there are
so many other moments before and since, right up to Chosen.
2. Alexis Denisof - to go from bordeline unlikeable clutz to conflicted
god is quite an achievment, and even better is to make it believable.
3. James Marsters - very affecting, and for much the same reason
as AD.
4. Anthony Stuart Head - brings the class and gravitas to even
the smallest line (and they have been small at times).
5. Oooh, last choice, difficult one! I'll go with Emma Caulfield,
if only for The Body, but it stretches so much further than that.
Who would be your choices for the "Top Five Actors/Actresses
who portrayed recurring characters in the BtVS & AtS television
series?
1. Julie Benz who is some kind of goddess, and responsible for
my favourite character ever on AtS
2. Stephanie Romanov, where I pretty much say ditto. But primarily
for getting me to care about a cold hearted evil b****
3. Juliet Landau - took me a while to warm to her, but season
two Angel convinced me. The sheer violence and fear she inspires
is amazing in her portrayal.
4. Eliza Dushku - my first favourite recurring character. While
my admiration has been dented due to her subsequent non-Buffy
work, she is amazing in the role of Faith.
5. Adam Busch - responsible for the only character on either show
I have ever loathed. Really quite some feat.
[> Re: Best Performers -- grifter, 16:26:10 09/22/03
Mon
Who would be your choices for the Top Five Actors/Actresses who
portray regular characters in the BtVS & AtS television series?
1. Sarah Michelle Gellar
2. James Marsters
3. Alexis Denisof
4. Emma Caulfield
5. Alyson Hannigan
Who would be your choices for the "Top Five Actors/Actresses
who portrayed recurring characters in the BtVS & AtS television
series?
1. Eliza Dushku
2. Adam Busch
3. Stephanie Romanov
4. Amber Benson (if Tara counts as recurring and not regular)
5. Tom Lenk
[> poor NB, gone and forgotten -- cougar, 17:00:19
09/22/03 Mon
[> [> Nic Brendon is never forgotten in this corner.
He's just not Top 5. -- cjl, 17:24:16 09/22/03 Mon
[> [> [> Just adding, while I wouldn't put him in
my top five either... -- Alison, 17:35:49 09/22/03 Mon
comparativly speaking, he doesn't getting the big dramatic scenes...he
does comedy effortlessly, and is perfect for romantic moments,
but due to the nature of his character while he has gotten some
seriously angsty scenes, he can't compare to Marsters or Gellar,
because of the material he's been given. Could he pull it off?
Maybe...but he's sort of out of the running on this one.
[> Re: Best Performers -- Random, 22:11:25 09/22/03
Mon
Top five regulars
1) Sarah Michelle Gellar: Highly underrated in the generally
fantastic casts of these shows. Not just another cute face.
2) Anthony Stewart Head: What can I say? I love Giles.
And ASH always pulls a winner. His delivery of "Tiny, tiny
babies" in WAY was priceless.
3) Alexis Denisof he made me despise him on Buffy, warm
to him on Angel, and was never once boring in any way. He da man.
4) Nicholas Brendon: The dark horse. Not the best on the
show, but almost certainly the most underrated. Nicholas made
the role his. I don't know how he would do on another show, in
another role (saw Psycho Beach Party but that didn't tell
me much) but the evidence I have suggests he is easily the most
underrated actor on either show. He's consistent and never once
left me wondering what was on his mind during the day's filming.
5) Alyson Hannigan Overrated, in my opinion, but not by
too much. She's marvelous sometimes, and her few flaws in acting
technique are easily outdistanced by her stellar talents in other
areas of acting.
Honorable mentions: David Boreanaz: he keeps getting better and
better. He may crack the list and take out a couple fan favorites
next season
Top 5 recurring characters:
1) Harry Groener: The man is my god...the best and best-acted
villain on either show, and that's saying something. What else
can I say except that I love the Mayor!
2) Robin Sachs: Ethan. The evil Giles. He makes me long
for a Giles/Ethan spin-off. The man is brilliant and a beautiful
find for ME
3) Robia LaMorte: Jenny. Sigh, how I miss thee. Whilst
thou wast here, Buffy was a better place. And thy death-scene
was the pinnacle of a very-well-acted stint. Until the FE tormented
poor Angel.
4) Danny Strong: Jonathan. Nuff said.
5) Julie Benz Until the last couple of seasons, I wasn't
really impressed with Julie Benz. She struck me as a moderately
pretty face with basic but unexceptional acting skills. I have
since revised that theorem.
Honorable mentions: Eliza Dushku is marvelous...but she got edged
out by all those dead people (except Ethan, but who knows what
happened to him). Somebody kill Faith soon so she can make the
list!
[> Question? How is SMG underrated?? -- s'kat, 22:49:16
09/22/03 Mon
Ahem...people keep mentioning how underrated SMG is.
Please explain?
She's won a daytime emmy. She has a movie career.
She was paid over 700,000 an episode more than most performers
on television. Approximately 3 million for SCooby Doo. And is
applauded by fans. She has won a fan award almost every year the
show has been on. Whedon applauds her in every interview. Stating
she made the show.
If anything she's overrated. None of the other actors on the shows
have gotten this much attention.
Yes, I think she's a good actress. I've seen all her movies which
I seriously doubt many others here can say (somewhat embarrassed
to admit to myself, since most were stinkers).
But she is hardly underrated.
[> [> Re: Proud to say I've seen every SMG movie as well.
-- Brian, 07:47:44 09/23/03 Tue
Slowly collecting as many as possible on DVD. Just picked up Simply
Irresistible, which, even if Sarah herself didn't like it, it's
still one of my favorites.
[> [> Re: Question? How is SMG underrated?? -- Claudia,
08:07:19 09/23/03 Tue
I don't think that SMG is underrated - except by the Emmys board.
But I don't think she is overrated, either.
[> [> Re: Question? How is SMG underrated?? -- RJA,
11:58:59 09/23/03 Tue
When I said it, I was talking about in the circles I move in,
she never gets her props. Certainly, at other boards I hang out
at its generally acceptable to say she is talentless, one note,
sleepwalking through roles etc. Maybe I just hang out in the wrong
places (hence my surprise that so many people listed her).
I have also seen a trend in some 'serious' media to be rather
snotty about her talents, with random asides being used to imply
she is a talentless bimbo - I read An interview with one director
last week who said in casting his film he wanted to look higher
than the Sarah Michelle Gellars and the Freddie Prinze Juniors,
which, you have to admit, is a low blow :-)
She certainly isn't fawned over in the ways that Reece Witherspoon
or Kirsten Dunst routinely are. While I think that a lot of this
is to do with bad choices of films (as you say, a lot of stinkers),
and snobbery over BtvS (you mention her Emmy, but surely that's
a sign of her underappreciation that she didn't get a nomination
in seven years?)
I also don't think that earning a vast amount of money shows she
isn't underrated. I was talking as an actress she is. She's more
recognised as a movie star, without any real hopes of getting
props for her acting too. I don't think the attention she garners
from being the lead, and in Scooby Doo necessarily reflects what
people think of her talents as an actress (and certainly, in the
media that focuses on BtVS and likes it, SMG isn't the only one
routinely fawned over).
[> [> [> Re: Question? How is SMG underrated??
-- Ames, 16:39:17 09/23/03 Tue
SMG has two strikes against her:
1. Her performance was such a big part of making BtVS what it
is that it almost goes without saying. It's the elephant in the
room.
2. She's tremendously talented, and she's not self-effacing about
it (hmmm, a lot like Buffy there). Some people are bound to feel
the need to run her down just to be contrary and take her down
a peg.
I think the entire regular cost were pretty darn good - so good
that it's difficult to pick one as better than another. SMG stood
out even in that group though.
If I had to pick, the best of the rest would have to be ASH. He
had a difficult key role, and I don't think he ever hit a false
note. The others played interesting, quirky characters, and usually
did it very well, but after SMG I would say that ASH did the heaviest
lifting. The fact that we don't notice it as much is a testament
to how well he did it.
[> Re: Best Performers -- Liv, 10:11:40 09/23/03
Tue
Who would be your choices for the Top Five Actors/Actresses who
portray regular characters in the BtVS & AtS television series?
1.James Marsters
2.Anthony Stewart Head
3.Alexis Denisof
4.Emma Caulfield
5.Seth Green
Who would be your choices for the "Top Five Actors/Actresses
who portrayed recurring characters in the BtVS & AtS television
series?
1.Eliza Dushku
2.Stephanie Romanov
3.Harry Groener
4.Tom Lenk
5.Robia LaMorte
[> Since no one's mentioned him yet -- Ponygirl, 10:36:36
09/23/03 Tue
I've got to throw in some praise for Armin Shimerman. If his delivery
of the line "Your point being?" in response to Buffy's
comment on him never having a date in high school wasn't enough
to win my heart, his appearance in Restless puts him at the top
of my favourite recurring characters list.
[> [> Yes. I officially replace Danny with Armin. Damn,
how could I forget *him*?!? -- Random, 11:15:15 09/23/03
Tue
[> Best One-Shot (or Two-Shot) Performers -- Gyrus,
11:05:12 09/23/03 Tue
Favorite actors to appear briefly on BTVS:
1. Hinton Battle as Sweet
2. Joel Gray as Doc
3. Camden Toy as Gnarl
4. Paige Moss as Veruca
5. Abraham Benrubi as Olaf the Troll
[> [> Five More Best One-Shot (or Two-Shot) Performers
-- cjl, 12:02:16 09/23/03 Tue
Liked almost all of those choices (I'm "iffy" on Veruca)
Five One-Shot/Two-Shot Characters from BtVS:
1. Katharine Towne as Sunday
2. Jonathan Woodward as Holden Webster
3. Azura Skye as Cassie
4. Sid the Dummy
5. John Ritter as Ted
From AtS:
1. Thomas Kopache as Denver (the book dealer)
2. Deborah Zoe as Mistress Meerna
3. Kristin Dattillo as Harry (Doyle's ex)
4. Jack Kehler as Manny
5. David Denman as Skip (third appearance? What third appearance?)
[> [> [> Good picks! -- Gyrus, 13:09:15 09/23/03
Tue
Forgot about Jonathan Woodward/Holden Webster.
[> Re: Best Performers -- Haddock, 14:04:56 09/23/03
Tue
Best regular characters
1. Alexis Denisof - Far and away the best actor in the series
in my view, has done a really good job with Wesley.
2. Michelle Trachtenberg - Probably the other really standout
acting talent in the show, brings an intensity to Dawn which can
be almost frightening.
3. Anthony Stewart-Head - Tremendous comic timing, good grasp
of the character he plays, rarely puts a foot wrong.
Particularly outstanding in The Wish.
4. Sarah Michelle Gellar - Never thought much of her in the film
roles she's done, but couldn't leave her off the list after re-watching
'Five by Five' which leads me to....
5. Eliza Dushku - Just shades onto the list ahead of Alyson Hannigan,
Nick Brendon and the guy whose name temporarily escapes me who
plays Lorne. Again, 'Five by Five' parts one and two are an influence
as I cast my vote.
[> [> Very much agree with your choices -- Scroll,
16:53:55 09/23/03 Tue
I think many of the ME actors can be outright brilliant for sustained
periods, even seasons, but AD, MT, and ASH are the ones who consistently
turn out superior acting. Considering how young Michelle Tractenberg
is, I definitely agree she has been amazing. Above and beyond
even her elders.
The guy who plays Lorne is Andy Hallett, whom Joss recruited after
hearing him sing. AndyH never meant to be an actor until Joss
signed him up, so I don't even know if has any acting experience
other than his tour on Angel. Pretty impressive, huh?
[> Re: Best Performers -- btvsk8, 14:29:50 09/23/03
Tue
1. James Marsters
2. SMG
3. Eliza Dushku (ok not a regular, but rules are made to be broken!)
4. Nick Brendon
5. Alyson Hannigan
Let the Melee Begin! --
Sara, finishing "The Beekeeper's Apprentice" at the
9th hour, 14:26:23 09/22/03 Mon
Can't wait to hear what people have to say about this book! I,
as usual, don't have anything profund to say. I did feel that
the portrayal of Watson was more the general view of the character,
rather than a true continuation of Doyle's creation. I remember
being very surprised when I first read the Sherlock Holmes stories
at how intelligent and competent Watson was - not in any way a
buffoonish character. I thought that King's version was more the
not too bright caricuture that you see in other people's works.
I also found that Mary's trauma and psychological scars were not
very convincing, more the picture of the author imagining what
it would be like to be traumatized, rather than a real portrait
of a person who has gone through tragedy. But a fun read, and
best of all it's made me take out my Sherlock Holmes for a re-read.
(...but wait I have to pick up "Hamlet again - oh no!)
- Sara, ready for mucho melee now!
Replies:
[> Swarm the melee -- fresne, 16:45:00 09/22/03 Mon
So, I should say something, because I like, err...suggested this
here book, cause you see it's really neat and stuff.
Neat as in a drink with no ice. Rich husky scotch that coats and
smooths and then you're drunk on golden view and the whole world
is philosophical.
This is one of my favorite types of story. The young apprentice
puts polka dotted bag over shoulder and sets off to the big city.
Hayseed in the hair.
Hay. I can practically smell the grass in this book. That smell
at the end of summer when the grass is gold and brown and is well
and truly baked in the heat. And the empty seed pods rustle in
the breeze as you supine and watch cotton chase across the cerulean
and next week, school will be in and all this will be gone back
into shoes and socks and text books. Except school's long past
and a memory. And as I work, summer's equal to other seasons.
Where vacation is measured in PTO and accumulated hours.
She's Mary of the Magdalene and young and the worlds are all before
her and yet it is all a memory of a bygone age, born in muddy
fields. A sepia photo. Fall. When the world turns to harvest and
winter and death. Then again fermenting grain makes scotch, with
a little distillation and angel's portions, or was that brandy,
but I digress.
Honey, a perfect preservative unless fermented and then it's all
sweet tipsy and lost bee hours.
It's what the Initiative could have been, with the Queen calculating
Bee.
Once again an old chestnut of a Holmsian story, where there can
be only one ultimate villain. Dragon coiled into dragoness.
I read somewhere that Laurie King came up with the idea for the
story after speculating what Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes would
have been like if Holmes were a woman. He was just so full of
mannerisms that hysterical behavior must have some gyn.
That old acorn that this is not a story. But like so many epistolary
tales reaching for that simulacrum of truth. Briefly I consider
Thucydides who twenty years after the fact could remember verbatim
the perambulations of speeches on the battle field. A found tale
in a box. A series of objects that have no meaning unless the
tale behind them is known. A necklace, a bolt, a cape. The emotional
significance is in the knowing.
The insistence by that Mary Russell as writer that she is no story,
but real. That Holmes lived and breathed. That insistence on narrowness
of POV. This is Mary's story. The world colored by her brush.
Gaze.
Not a Doctor wounded in Afghanistan. In what was one of the more
spectacular of British colonial failures, but a child-woman wounded
in a moment of childish bitterness. Consider that Mary's father
would have gone into intelligence. Consider that as our story
opens, Holmes has just finished a protracted intelligence operation.
That she herself finds a love of the flex and weave of that secret
work. That parallel of smarter brother, but this Mycroft died.
That both Mary and Holmes have their little family issues. And
in a scene coming so soon after Mary discusses Holmes much handled
family photo, she describes in brief her aunt and then consigns
that relation (also, a Jew, also Other, clever Queen Bee) to namelessness.
How very old testament (well, actually, I suppose Torah) and power
in a name of Mary. That both Mary and Sherlock are in fact Russell
and Holmes. The last name as identifier.
I wonder what Watson's portrayal would have been if told from
the eyes of someone less sure of her own genius. It's a knife
that cuts both ways. What of Holmes, if not seen through the eyes
of a young woman? I recall a comment by Laurie King that there
is something incredibly appealing about a man that regards being
defeated intellectually by a woman (Ms. Adler), as the height
of romantic attraction.
In the corpus of cannon, Watson had no need to be Holmes apprentice,
he was a physician and had already served his internship. Been
through fire. Emerged with walking stick and half pay on the other
side.
What is it to be an apprentice? A journeywoman? Master? Mistress?
To grow like a weed into this adult, this person who writes with
bad spelling her own tale. Layers of perception. Editing correction.
To seek to divine man's thoughts and find divine tracings in the
conjugation of a verb. While preparing the story, Laurie King
had to re-correct the proof, because a copy editor changed the
spellings from English to American.
Briefly I consider the reference to the younger son of a duke
(one of Holmes friends), which is a reference to Lord Peter Whimsy,
himself a ground up victim of French fields, and part of an evolution
away from puzzle mysteries to mysteries of psychological depth
and tremble.
Remembering chess on summer evenings, when Mary knows, logically,
that the days were full of dying boys and field work and rattling
thunder of falling metal. A twisted broken bolt as queen. No,
Queen. It's all in the punctuation.
The series of moments that make a story.
Perambulating across the downs whilst immersed in Virgilian similes,
sheep scatter on the bucolic hillside.
That furious moment of rescue in the dark, while the fiddler plays.
In midst of flight, a moment of dressing up to go to the ball/concert.
Dashed. Slashed. Adulthood undone.
After years of holding/compromising on her identity as Other,
Mary's moment singing the Psalm of exile, Psalm 137 "By the
waters of Babylon, there we sat down and we wept when we remembered
Zion!"
That bitter voyage home. The wear of pretend and that moment of
conciliation in the dark, when the eyes are unseen and the soul
comes forward to reveal the ugliness of truth.
And that bygone sunshine end, where fractures heal, but the bones,
like ringed trees, always ache the memory of the wound.
"If you prick me, do I not bleed?"
And I consider that the Mary of this tale, cannot vote, but that's
the next book.
Jerusalem
And did those feet, in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the Holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among those dark Satanic mills?
Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear!
O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of Fire!
I will not cease from mental fight;
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.
[> Being all controversial: is Mary Russell a Mary Sue?
-- Ponygirl, 07:25:26 09/23/03 Tue
Maybe I'm cranky because my neck is sore and I had meetings all
day yesterday, or maybe I just want to stir the pot, but I do
think a case can be made for Mary Russell being a Mary Sue. I
realize part of the fun of a Sherlock Holmes mystery is that he
can easily dazzle everyone with his brilliance, and that the basis
for this series is in seeing what happens when he meets his match,
but Mary had scarcely any learning curve. From her first meeting
at 15 with Holmes she's beating him at his own game. Within four
years we're to believe that she has reason to be treated as an
equal and in fact may be surpassing the aging Holmes. Mary's intellect
knows no bounds, there doesn't seem to be an area that she's not
brilliant in, despite up until going to Oxford she has to rely
on Holmes and various tutors to educate her. One might expect
there to be certain gaps in such an education, but from biology
to geology to languages she's a readymade expert.
Even more damning, with the exception of her aunt, everybody loves
Mary. None of Holmes' loved ones resents this interloper or her
almost immediate primacy in his life, in fact everyone welcomes
her as the best thing that ever happened to Holmes. Despite a
stated isolated upbringing she's at ease in any social situation
and can be counted upon to say the right thing to anyone whether
it's a traumatized child or a middle-aged police officer.
All of the above I could have accepted in the spirit of the novel,
except for one detail that for me pushed Mary over the edge into
the land of too good to be fictional - that Holmes had arranged
for this young lady to study Eastern martial arts. Mary Russell
has a kung fu grip? Ack!
[> [> I agree with you, except for one thing: --
Arethusa, 07:46:24 09/23/03 Tue
would Holmes accept anything less in a woman partner? The only
other woman we know he was attracted to also was his equal, and
also managed to fool him in disguise. The books skim over her
years of tutelage under Holmes, and do show her arrogance. But
overall, yes, the Buffy moves (back flip off a handsome cab!)
and wealth and beauty and brillance and scholarship and adoring
employees and advanced attitudes are a bit too much.
[> [> [> Holmes at least has flaws -- Ponygirl,
07:57:30 09/23/03 Tue
He is a lonely, troubled and prickly man, with addictions and
prejudices. Mary does have the arrogance, but other than that
it pretty much perfect. The thing is I quite liked Mary but I
kept hoping for her to be completely wrong or make a horrible
mistake.
[> [> Re: Being all controversial: is Mary Russell a
Mary Sue? -- Rahael, 08:16:10 09/23/03 Tue
I believe KdS once suggested Mary Russell as a Mary Sue, but only
as an example of how a good author can produce an entertaining
Mary Sue.
I didn't read this for the Book Melee, but I did read this novel
following Fresne and Arethusa's recc of it a while ago and enjoyed
it so much that I've now read everything in the series (in fact,
I save them for long plane journeys and some journeys over the
Atlantic haven't been spent in an airplane, but with Russell and
Holmes in Jerusalem.
The thing about Mary Russell is this - you get to enter into the
mind of a very strong, independent, sometimes arrogant, determined
woman. That feeling is such a novelty that she seems quite out
of the mould of other female narrators. I actually got a different
impression of her than others - bookish, handsome rather than
beautiful, often awkward, with a large hinterland of thought and
experience that gives her certain maturity.
Perhaps it is the fact that I've now read the whole series, but
there are certainly tensions within the central relationship,
and some resentment shown toward her by Holmes' friends.
I think it's very necessary that she is able to match Holmes when
she first meets him, (perhaps he underestimates her to start)
and then advances as they grow older - otherwise the power dynamic
would be more uncomfortable than it is.
Funnily enough (considering I go for the aloof intellectual types),
I don't actually find Holmes all that attractive, and so perhaps,
I don't find her lot all that enviable!
[> [> [> The saving grace- -- Arethusa, 09:17:17
09/23/03 Tue
because I very much enjoyed all the books-is that I like
her flaws. I like that she's arrogant and smarter than most other
people and well-educated and just a little bit tortured because
those are qualities necessary for a woman to fight the mainstream
of assumptions regarding women. I'd like to be more like her,
except for the little-bit-tortured part which I think I've already
got covered. And her deep faith gives an almost unexpected depth
to her character, as well as preventing her from being a Holmes
clone. (Mini-Mary!) She's a little too perfect, but her superiority
is a necessary facet of the story. She wouldn't be in Holmes'
company if she weren't.
It's very refreshing to read about an unabashedly strong woman,
physically and mentally. It's one of the reasons I usually prefer
mysteries over "proper" literature. Heroes in modern
(post-1980s) mysteries are very often written by women for women
and include very strong females. Kinsey Milhone, Amelia Peabody
Emerson, V. I. Warshawski, Kathy Mallory, Sunny Randal-and many
more.
[> [> [> Say it again, Rah! -- mamcu, 09:53:55
09/24/03 Wed
[> [> I love this series, the little girl sobbed, flinging
herself before the books -- fresne, 12:22:36 09/23/03 Tue
Although, apparently, I can't quite remember a few details regarding
Psalms and bolts, but whatever.
It's the mood and the keen, proud, lonely mind that I love. The
restless settling of A Letter of Mary, the tensions coiling
like fog and splattering like mud in The Moor. And them
there's A Monstrous Regiment where we really get into what
it means to be a brilliant, well to do, young woman in the English
twenties. You can't vote till you're 30. The war is over and the
young men want their jobs back. Why don't you go back into your
corset little girl, we don't need the steel for battleships anymore.
The world is just a little broken.
Considering briefly the social significance of clothing.
But that's not the book under discussion, so I'll ask, what is
the significance of POV? As when reading Bleak House, 1st
person writing has certain critical obligations for the reader.
Given how Mary sees herself, how old was she when she wrote this
book? Is she 90, remembering the power and beauty of her youth,
or is she 21 and in the midst? Given the larger framing device,
Mary's poor spelling, the opening letter, Mary's specific reference
to her POV of Holmes, the repetition of references to Watson's
re-imagining of Holmes adventures, are we to take Mary's POV as
completely accurate? Are there things in the cracks of the story?
Given Holmes role as a truth dealer, is there a truth to be gotten
at? Is it possible to peal back the façade of the hive
and see the bees at their work? The Beekeeper's Apprentice, not
the detective's. On the Segregation of the Queen Given
Holmes role as professional, and traditional placement in "the
city", and as significant figure in the literature of the
City, what is the significance of the largely rural setting of
the mystery/ies?
Is there an overall structural significance to the interlude in
Jerusalem? What is the significance of the escalation of cases?
That classic Holmsian, well you see the poison! blah, blah, blah.
Mary's picnic of a case. The jaunt across Wales, which differs
somewhat from the classic cases, because Holmes alludes to cases
where he failed. And of course, the final case with Dame Agatha
Browning, sorry wrong mystery, Professura Moriarty.
And I must admit, I wish that I could discuss O' Jerusalem,
which chronologically is buried within BKA, because I find the
parallels of dreams and weakness interesting. The parallel of
the two Psalms. One in joy, one in sorrow.
I don't know, given Mary's hard held grasp of her beliefs, which
could not have been easy in rural downy, why does she eat ham?
Other than the fact that Laurie King has a PhD in Theology, what
is the significance of Mary's theological bent?
Thoughts, whiring, buzzin' like a bee.
[> [> [> I love your posts, the other girl sobbed,
flinging herself before her keyboard -- Sara, 15:56:51
09/23/03 Tue
I wish I saw all the wonderful things that you see in the book,
but I'm glad I read it, so that I can peek into the world of your
post, even if it's not there for me in the book itself!
[> [> [> [> If everyone saw things like I do, you'd
all be wearing glasses. -- fresne, 17:14:10 09/23/03 Tue
At least they're small and stylish, although at the moment some
what dotted with polyurethane.
To be honest, I didn't expect to like the books. A friend of mine,
whose tastes don't always mesh with mine, described them and I
went, ugh. But you know I read them, and now BKA is in my top
ten.
In any case, if a Literature education teaches us anything, is
you don't have to enjoy a thing to analyze it. Perhaps, consider
the way the framing device of Frankenstein and BKA inform the
work.
It's also useful to consider BKA as somewhat preparative to the
Hamlet/Roz and Guild are like totally dead, man melee.
When a writer plays in someone else's sandbox, there is a certain
tension, particularly when you're talking about a "classic".
Like Jane Eyre and the Wide Sargasso Sea. or for
that matter The Eyre Affaire.
Where do the works touch? Pull away?
This is something that especially applies to us, we many, we fans
of a show that has generated its share of fanfic. Eliminating
the (was it Sturgeon who came up with this) the 90% that always
sucks, the remaining 10% skips about as the bastard child of the
original work. I'm thinking about this in particular at the moment
because Anna has at long last produced another chapter in her
incredible Season 7 Buffy Noir, which she started way back in
mid Season 6. Some of the current similarities and dissimilarities
between Buffy Noir and the real S7 are quite interesting.
Anyway, BKA is peppered with so many references to the original
works, actually as I think about it, this is something that the
writer plays with in a number of the books, the biggest being
The Moor, which revisits Dartmoor and Baskerville and place
as personality. But I digress!it interests me that King imagines
Mrs. Hudson as coming to work for Holmes as the result of a case,
which as I recall, involved harpoons. Or the very deliberate reference
to the "Valley of Fear", a Moriarty related case. The
reinforcement of Moriarty's dual role as Criminal Master mind/High
Math Professor and the link between High Math and Theology. The
brief discussion of the Adler case, which in context with later
books, seems fairly aware of fanfic.
The games afoot, yeah, yeah, Henry, Shakespeare, well, it's not
the exactly the St. Crispin's day speech.
[> [> [> [> [> ...but I do wear glasses
-- Sara, maybe needing a new pair...oooh shopping opportunity!,
19:19:35 09/23/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Um!if everyone saw as I
do, you'd all have my vision prescription and astigmatism
-- fresne, 15:09:51 09/24/03 Wed
Or given the Holmes connection, perhaps it should be, "if
everyone saw as I do, you'd all have my retina pattern,"
which would foil a multitude of spy/sci fi stories. Like that
Holmes in the 20something century cartoon. Watson's a robot and
Lestrade is a woman and everyone has flying cars.
It's the 21st century already. I want my flying car.
But have fun with the frame shopping. It's the one accessory that
you wear every day, unless, well, you don't.
[> [> Personal view on the Sue issue (spoilers for later
Holmes/Russell books if you're concerned) -- KdS, 16:16:06
09/23/03 Tue
Don't have a great deal of spare time at the moment, but here
are my main suggestions for why Mary Russell isn't a Sue in the
derogatory sense:
a) Whereas annoying Sues are often simply described as intelligent
without ever showing it, LRK genuinely convinces us that Mary
is very intelligent, and has the flaws that go with it, which
I see as genuine and not bogus tagged on ones - the arrogance,
impatiences and occasional patronisation of the less intelligent.
b) The Holmes/Russell relationship strikes me as developing organically,
it takes two books, it isn't love at first sight, they are both
quite uncomfortable with their attraction when they become aware
of it, and thank God there are no sex scenes. (Q:How does Sherlock
Holmes Do It? A:Very well... [smiles enigmatically])
c) Mary suffers not in the overblown angsty way, but in real undignified
ways - she gets tired and dirty and injured. Name any female action
hero who has to choose her dresses carefully to cover up the assorted
burn and bullet marks she's picked up over the years.
The only thing that does annoy me about the books is Twit!Watson
- a very annoying piece of radio/movie canon that misrepresents
ACD's work. But I can forgive it, because of the limited role
he plays.
[> [> [> And agreeing with Rah that Mary is definitely
not portrayed as beautiful -- KdS, 16:17:56 09/23/03 Tue
... and about the need for her to be close to Holmes's level to
begin with to avoid squicky age/power issues.
[> [> [> [> Re: And agreeing with Rah that Mary
is definitely not portrayed as beautiful -- Arethusa, 06:35:33
09/25/03 Thu
Watson took one look at her, sweaty and grimy from working, and
said she was beautiful. He's too true a soul to lie for flattery's
sake. The Welsh police inspector took one look at her and assumed
she was Holmes' lover. Holmes nearly had an appoplexy, according
to Russell, when he saw her gowned, coiffed and jeweled on her
18th birthday. The male Welsh villagers, Russell stated, were
all checking her out, making their wives jealous.
[> [> [> [> [> Beautiful eagles and hellish
gyres -- fresne, 10:52:10 09/25/03 Thu
Well, that would to my mind be based one the combination of several
things (since we're talking about a number of incidents.)
I'm not sure perfect physiognomy is what Watson is talking about,
but that's perspective.
Mainly, I don't think a woman needs to be beautiful to be attractive.
There is pretty, but to be magnetic, if this doesn't sound too
lame, one must have magnetism. Charisma.
I'm a firm believer in the Cinderella principle. Anyone, given
an understanding of how to dress to their face and body type,
can be attractive. Especially if they are willing to be happy
and show it. Smiling can be very attractive, which brings us back
to charisma.
I'd guess the Welsh villagers found Mary to be attractive because
she's young, not disfigured, and a gipsy (and therefore Other/exotic/sexually
Other).
As to the inspector, I believe that is called the Slash principle
and would have applied if Mary had been Joseph.
Although, what I really want to comment on is a realization that
I had yesterday when re-re-re-re (oh, whatever)reading the introduction
again. I do wish I had time to apply an analytical lens to the
work, have my reference materials next to me, and write a nice
long essay. But, such is life.
Anyway, given my proclivities, I can't quite believe that I never
saw it before.
Mary reading Virgil, wandering far from paths, in that spring
time of the year, early April, if only this were 1914, rather
than at a guess 1915, it might even be Easter Sunday, as Mary
prepares to begin her decent, ascent into learning how to use
the tools with which she was born.
I'd say it's an accidental parallel, but Dot is going to hell
with Dante and I've read King's To Play the Fool a mystery
based on her Master's thesis on Holy Fools.
The teacher with whom she demands parity in mental acuity if not
experience. I contemplate Dante and Virgil's meeting the poets
in Limbo and they talk. Or that conversation with Statius in Purgatory.
This story in which Dante places himself as main character, gives
himself his favorite poet as guide, from who he learns this and
that, and yet with whom he demands parity as a poet in his vernacular.
Mary's insistence on theology, where Holmes sticks to the minutia
of this world. It's all so very, teasing, as Holmes the eagle
in profile sits. What Dante-esq description.
And bees, they buzz. There is a significance there that I haven't
quite teased yet. Water sweeter than honey wine. Rejoicing at
Jerusalem. Sorrow at Acre.
Well, I'd best say all that now, because by the time I have time,
it'll be Christmas or possibly Easter.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Beautiful eagles and
hellish gyres -- Arethusa, 11:20:38 09/25/03 Thu
We must disentangle, therefore, what now is obscure.
Isolate her and however abundant the food or favorable the temperature,
she will expier in a few days not ofhunger or cold, but of lonliness.
Most creatures have a vague belief that a very precarious hazard`
a kind of transparent membrane, devides death from love.
One came hither, to the school of the bees, to be taught the preoccupations
of all-powerful nature....and the lesson of ardent and disinterested
work; and other lesson too....to enjoy the almost unspeakable
delights of those immaculate days that revolved on themselves
in the fields of space, forming merely a transparent globe, as
void of memory as the happiness without alloy.
Maurice Maeterlinck, The Life of the Bee.
"[Bees are] a bit too close to the human race for my taste."
Mary Russell
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> "a kind of transparent
membrane, divides death from love" -- fresne, 17:25:07
09/25/03 Thu
Yes, wonderfully evocative isn't it. It makes me want to schlep
to my local UC Library and check out The Life of Bees apiary
description, not as scientific treatise, but as poetry in prose.
To look up the quotation to which the book is compared, Virgil's
text on bees, in which Virgil ascribes to them divina mens, the
divine thought/spirit.
To do one of those pendantic searches where one finds every reference
to bees in the text. Gather minutea and mull until the daughter
of the Voice has something to say.
Which I probably won't in the short term, but I should really
put a note in my copy so I can go spelunk the stacks the next
time I read BKA. After all, I've done more for books I like less.
Life
of Bees info and a bit on Maurice Maeterlinck, Nobel Laureate
for Literature 1911.
[> [> [> From the Sue-blime to the tasteless --
Dead (and always game to lower the tone) Soul, 22:22:21 09/23/03
Tue
Name any female action hero who has to choose her dresses carefully
to cover up the assorted burn and bullet marks she's picked up
over the years.
Anita Blake.
Haven't read BKA, but I hope she's got better taste than AB. Does
Mary Russell color coordinate with the swoosh on her Nikes?
[> [> [> [> Right about Anita -- mamcu, 10:53:49
09/24/03 Wed
And Mary Russell's boyfriends definitely don't wear those shirts,
as in AB.
In fact, Anita Blake is a lot more unbelievably perfect than Mary
Russell. She kills hoards of werewolves and 1000 year old vampires
with just her little gun.
[> [> Regarding Jessie Simpson--spoilers for Russell
books -- Arethusa, 07:09:49 09/25/03 Thu
"I do hate them. Mama says I don't, but I do."
Jessie's mother is too afraid of what it means to accept that
her lilttle girl, barely more than a baby, can feel such a mature
and negative emotion. Russell knows better. She hates her aunt,
which is against everything society teaches one, especially in
those day. Russell knows children can have very strong emotions,
because she inadvertantly killed her family as a young teen. She's
experienced them, and can recognize them in other children.
"Well, sometimes when I wake up, I think I'm still in that
bed....Do you know what I'm talking about," she asked without
much hope.
Mary's had flashbacks since the accident too, so she does know
what Jessie's talking about. She knows what it's like to wake
up confusd and disoriented, feeling all over again the crippling
fear, overwhelming guilt, grief and regret. So she can tell Jessie
what she's feeling.
"Like maybe feeling it was somehow your fault, that if you'd
tried just a little harder you could have gotten away. Like even
being angry at your father and mother for not rescuing you sooner."
Children frequently feel guilty for being victims of crimes, even
when there is no reason to do so. (So do adults.) Mary feels guilty
even though she was just a kid fighting with her brother when
the accident happened. And it was her father who crashed the car,
her father and mother who left her and went away and never came
back. She was angry at them, as her psychiatrist told her. It
was perfectly natural. And since Russell knew this, she could
tell Jessie.
"Be angry. It's right to be angry when someone hurts you
for no reason. But do you think you can try to not be too
afraid?"
"To be angry and-happy?"
Again, Russell's seen enough to know the effects of personal tragedies.
She knows that anger can be healthy, because it lets Jessie know
that it's not her fault. She doesn't have to deny her anger, which
is going to be there whether she acknowledges it or not. And so
she can give herself permission to be happy. Yes, Russell's making
a lot of assumptions on how Jessie feels. But she's right, because
she's been there, and with help figured out her emotions and how
to live with them. And therefore she was able to help Jessie with
hers.
[> [> [> Oh yes... -- Rahael, 09:12:19 09/25/03
Thu
I remember when I read that, that my precise thoughts were how
excellently it was done. Especially the 'angry-happy' part.
[> Did you know about the preservative qualities of honey?
-- fresne, 14:30:11 09/23/03 Tue
There's something interesting going on in all those references
to bees. The moment when Mary thinks of Holmes book and the bees
that die when separated. The segregation of the queen. Clever
metaphor, wending simile.
Too bad the conversation about crime and punishment is in a different
book. Maintained clever metaphor, vivid description of blah, blah,
blah.
Mary's permission to yon wounded child to be angry because of
her lost innocence. Simpson. Huh, is there nothing that donut's
cannot do, as Homer wanders through. Clever metaphor neatly tied
up with simile. Oh, not like that! Allegorically.
[> [> it also has mild antiseptic properties (no idea
if this is relevant) -- anom, 20:53:16 09/23/03 Tue
That'd be 'cause I'm not reading the book. But I've started Hamlet...w/any
luck I'll be able to join in the next melee. Don't start it too
soon!
[> Freud and Sherlock Holmes -- Arethusa, 07:06:38
09/26/03 Fri
This is only peripheral to TBA, but I don't want to put all that
highlighting to waste. ;)
Samuel Rosenburg wrote a Fruedian analysis of the Sherlock Holmes
stories called Naked is the Best Disguise that postulates
Doyle was supressing homosexual tendencies. He dances around the
subject a bit, never actually stating Doyle was homosexual, but
he does proclaim "his obsessive theme [is] the disasters
which befall those who engage in either normal or abnormal [sic]sexuality.
[His stories] embod[y] the fate of illict heterosexuals....[and]
the punishments inflicted upon individual men and vast multitudes
becuse of one individual's love for a person of the same sex."
Plus he talks a lot about Oscar Wilde, whom Doyle admired and
who was in overlapping literary circles. The clue to his "syndrome"
is the presence of something written. One piece of evidence is
Homes' book on bees, mentioned of course in TBA, which Rosenberg
says is associated through bees to Dionysius, a god associated
with out-of-control sexuality. Another sexually tainted figure
placed in the Holmes stories is Nietzsche, who was the inspiration
for Moriarity, according to Rosenberg. To save the world from
"deviance" and its "godlessness" Doyle created
Sherlock Holmes, bastion of Victorian law and morality.
I'm no fan of Freud, who seems to have based his Oedipal theories
on his refusal to believe the experiences of his "hysterical"
women patients, but the idea has interesting possibilities. If
Rosenberg is right, Doyle, Bram Stoker and Oscar Wilde have much
in common. All three were Irish, two were Catholic, and two suppressed
their homosexuality, but explored it in their works. Wilde's trial
was as famous as the O. J. Simpson case; everyone knew the consequences
of public homosexuality. So maybe they used their stories to explore
their hidden lives and feelings, giving us some of the most fascinating
literary creatures in the process.
Xander vs Anya -- JBone, 04:46:59
09/23/03 Tue
Bite
me, Harris!
http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html
Easy, Voynak. I'm just gonna post this and leave you alone. Post
comments here, at the voting site or email me.
Replies:
[> Re: Xander vs Anya -- Celebaelin, 05:33:47 09/23/03
Tue
The voting is already fairly advanced and things do not look good
for Ms. Jenkins. I voted for her though, largely because Xander
still wants reconciliation if remotely possible wheras all Anya
wants is anything she can get. If she can't make tentacles grow
out of Xander's eyes (again with the eyes) or lovingly squewer
him with a disemboweling sword she can at least stick him with
the bill.
[> [> Re: Xander vs Anya -- MaeveRigan, 06:58:20
09/23/03 Tue
Lots of votes, not so many comments. Does this mean people are
uneasy about articulating their pro-Xander and/or pro-Anya feelings.
Frankly, this is another of those contests that should never have
happened, because--face it--those two crazy kids love each other,
in spite of everything they've been through, in spite of the conflicts
and the disappointments and betrayals and reversions to vengeance.
In the end, Xander never stopped loving Anya, and Anya couldn't
forget Xander and couldn't embrace vengeance whole-heartedly.
Her love for Xander grew into love for humanity. On that basis,
I'm calling it a win for Xander.
[> It's time... -- Random, 07:09:27 09/23/03 Tue
...for Xander to finally get his due. Over the space of 7 years,
everybody's favorite butt-monkey has been abused and confused
and often contused. I adore Anya, don't mistake me, but...it's
time. Xander has survived the worst beasties and befuddlements
the Hellmouth has thrown at him and has emerged alive, if Cyclopean,
without the benefit of superpowers, magical daring-do, or an overprotective
superpowered sister who would kill her best friend (Willow? Xander?
Holden? Who knows who the best friend is anymore) to save the
whiny, luscious lil thang whose dance moves are...ummm, back to
Xander, who feels an infinite sorrow as he takes out Anya(y'all
didn't know the boy had, like, real feelings, did ya? Too busy
sighing over Spike's monomaniacal poet's disease?) Poor Xander
-- having to defeat his own beloved dead ex-girlfriend. But he
has *been* there, *done* that. Give not the heart to vain regret
for Xander, our Everyman, our Carpenter, the clumsy and snarky
kid who skateboarded into our lives on special day in 1997. Today,
I vindicate him.
[> The contest is on, but the battlefield is empty.
-- cjl, 07:19:33 09/23/03 Tue
Wait. Somebody left a note....
Dear Jay:
Thank you for the generous, albeit temporary resurrection. But
if one of us is going to be eliminated in the next 24 hours, Xander
and I thought we should have as much sex as humanly possible before
the end. (And maybe some sex that's beyond humanly possible.)
You and your group of combat junkies are on your own.
Anya
[> [> Hee! It's a tie! Or, hmm, Xander is tied up?
-- Scroll, 09:55:22 09/23/03 Tue
Either way works for me... and for Anya, naturally. I'm not voting
this time, cuz there's just no way for me to split this dynamic
duo up. Let fate and the monsters at ME do what they must -- in
my heart of hearts, Xander and Anya lived happily ever after,
having half a dozen money-loving, furniture-building babies, a
mortgage that will eventually be paid off, and a white picket
fence that occasionally doubles as a vamp dusting device.
Xander + Anya 4Evah!!!
[> [> [> tied up? what, they couldn't find any chains?
-- anom, 10:52:20 09/23/03 Tue
Well, their yet-one-more-time together is limited, so they wouldn't
want to spend too much of it looking for their preferred type
of restraints...anyway, sounds like restraint ain't exactly what
they have in mind. BTW, Scroll, love the picket/stake idea!
[> Re: Xander vs Anya -- Apophis, 15:25:27 09/23/03
Tue
Let's face it: If ElectroGwen couldn't make me vote against Xander,
no one can. It's my sworn duty to make sure that Xander is the
last man standing, even if I have to do some unpleasant things,
like vote against Anya or shoot a puppy. War truly is hell. Xander
wins by paying Anya to lay down... not that she wouldn't have
done that for free... Ain't a woman alive what can resist a jaunty
eye-patch.
[> Much as I love Anya . . . -- HonorH, 18:43:49
09/23/03 Tue
I simply must vote for Xander. That is all.
[> "Bite me, Harris".....such a great line!
-- Nino, 22:20:14 09/23/03 Tue
The Price and Hitchcock
-- ScottS, 10:32:27
09/23/03 Tue
Was rewatching The Price last night (ATS 3.19) when I suddenly
realized that the episode is constructed as a series of homages
to Alfred Hitchcock. There are the obvious references to The Birds,
but also at the beginning to The Man Who Knew Too Much (American
version) and later to Psycho. I did not have time to go thru again
last night, but has anyone noticed any other Hitchcock references
in this episode?
Longest Active Slayer?
-- Claudia, 15:08:26 09/23/03 Tue
It just occurred to me that after going over the entire series,
Buffy was never the longest active Slayer, as many fans claim.
Not really.
Replies:
[> Re: Longest Active Slayer? -- Ames, 16:13:50 09/23/03
Tue
Ok, I'll bite - what evidence are you looking at?
In the entire series we were only introduced to 5 other Slayers:
Kendra, Faith, the first Slayer, the one Spike killed in the Boxer
Rebellion in China, and Robin Wood's mother. (not counting the
not-quite canon stuff like the lead-in to the very first broadcast
that showed some other Slayers)
Of these, Kendra lasted lasted only a year, Faith has lasted at
least 2 years less than Buffy, and there's no evidence about the
longevity of the first Slayer or the one in China. But a case
might be made about Robin Wood's mother, since she was old enough
to have a child who looked what, about 4-5 years old at the time
of her death? I don't recall if anything specific was said about
whether she had Robin before or after becoming a Slayer.
Then there's Giles' comment about few Slayers surviving past their
mid-20s. Buffy was only 22 at the end of S7, and he called her
one of the longest-surviving Slayers years before that. That implies
that there are at least a few Slayers who lived longer.
[> [> When was Robin's mother activated? -- Ray,
18:39:24 09/23/03 Tue
Maybe she became a Slayer when he was a toddler.
[> I've always wondered this too. -- Artemis, 23:48:44
09/23/03 Tue
I've heard this said over and over by fans, that Buffy is the
longest Active Slayer or the best that ever lived, as if she's
been called this in the series or by Joss. I definitely have never
heard it in the series and I too am wondering where this assumption
comes from. It seems to be one of those examples of fiction becoming
fact, exxagerations becoming real or ten ramdom people becoming
the consensus for the viewing public,something that seems to happen
often on the internet.( I would say all the time but I don't want
to exxagerate)
Examples being:
"Season six is considered a failure by most fans"
"At least Spike knew Buffy didn't love him." (No he
believed Buffy didn't love him.)
Wrecked is the worst episode ever.
While yes, these are just opinions they are sometimes stated with
such passion that later these statements become written as fact.
Its no longer. "I think Wrecked was bad."It becomes
"The majority of fans think Wrecked is bad.
I wonder if this is what happened with Buffy being called the
'longest Active slayer', or the statement I've seen most often,
'The best Slayer to ever live.'
Mind you, she is the best in my book. But that's just personal
preference not necessarily fact; Unless of course someone can
give me the episode that states this; Or even a statement by Joss
since she is his creation.
Forgive me for being kinda rambly.
And yes I know I use punctuation as art, not to structure a sentence.
I especially like the semi colon. It's pretty.
[> [> "The greatest slayer that's ever been."
(spoiler - commentary on restless) -- Cynicor, 16:17:29
09/24/03 Wed
Yes, the statement that Buffy is the greatest slayer who ever
lived is not anecdotal: Joss said it himself, in his commentary
on Restless (see S4 DVD). He made the comment during his monologue
about what separates Buffy from her predecessors.
"And we learn the point of the thing. The Slayer must be
alone, must be a beast, by herself and Buffy just won't put up
with that. What separates her from other Slayers, we learn, is
that she is not alone, she has friends, she has a life. That is
as important to her as the part where she's a Slayer."
Needless to say, it would be my belief regardless of whether it
was proven and documented. Buffy is the greatest.
[> [> [> Oops: the clipboard ate my quote -- Cynicor,
16:20:55 09/24/03 Wed
Apologies, my point is somewhat lost when the full quote is missing.
Here is the full:
"And we learn the point of the thing. The Slayer must be
alone, must be a beast, by herself and Buffy just won't put up
with that. What separates her from other Slayers, we learn, is
that she is not alone, she has friends, she has a life. That is
as important to her as the part where she's a Slayer. That's what
makes her the greatest slayer that's ever been."
[> [> [> [> Oh. Crap. -- KdS, 16:28:25 09/24/03
Wed
Straight from the horse's mouth, Joss really does think that late-20th
century Western culture is uniquely enlightened and the only place
women were ever capable of attempting autonomy. Pass the sick
bag...
I do remember the debate a few months ago over whether any past
cultures had female empowerment on a large scale. But this confirms
something I feared and alluded to in my S7 essay, that Joss believes
that only in the 1990s were women even capable of conceptualising
that they needed empowerment, because that is the only thing that
can explain no past Slayer, in however many thousand years, ever
considering rebelling against traditional interpretations of her
destiny.
Personal canon rewrite if I ever write fanfic seriously: Giles
and Willow discover a secret Guardian archive of material on past
Slayers who the WC carefully destroyed all records of ;-)
[> Re: Longest Active Slayer? -- RJA, 10:13:10 09/24/03
Wed
I dont think there is evidence one way or the other to make it
a definite claim. It all depends if there is a set age for Potentials
to be called - say, they have to tbe 15, and if a Potential gets
older than that without being called, then they never will be.
In which case, Buffy certainly wasnt the longest active Slayer.
However, there is evidence to suggest that isnt necessarily the
case. There was an implication that Faith was older than Buffy
when they met, so older when called too (although this is rather
speculative based on Faith's reference to herself as big Sister).
There is also Kennedy, who was 18 or 19 on her arrival in Sunnydale,
yet still seemed to be able to be called.
Inconclusive though. I'll end with saying Buffy may or may not
be the longest active Slayer. Case closed!
[> According to "Tales of the Slayer"... --
Majin Gojira, 10:53:43 09/24/03 Wed
a Greek Slayer (IE: Ancient Greece) named Thessily of Thessilonikki
is credited with being the longset living/active slayer being
called at 12 years old and finally dieing at the ripe old age
of 29. 17 years of Slaying. Buffy's got 10 some years to go to
reach that point.
As for greatest -- we have very little information on the other
slayers so it is impossible to judge them, or Buffy, as "Greatest".
It all matters how much you consider "Tales of the Slayer"
to be cannonical, currently, IIRC, there is no real reason why
Vol. 1 should not be.
[> [> Re: According to "Tales of the Slayer"...
-- Miyu tVP, 11:32:13 09/24/03 Wed
A slayer in Ancient Greece? Very cool.
Whether or not Buffy is (will be?) the longest living slayer ever,
I think generally the idea is that she's lasted much longer than
any of the recent slayers and alot longer than anyone (WC) expected.
And as to whether she is the 'bestest' slayer ever... I think
it's more that she is the most revolutionary. She not only developed
completely without tWC's training (prior to being called), but
subsequnetly rejected their authority entirely. She rejected the
idea of being "alone" and instead flourished as part
of the Scooby gang. And then the thing about disrupting the whole
slayer line and allowing all potentials to share in the slayer
power simultaneously.
She may not be the best slayer in comparison to her many predecessors,
but she forever changed what it means to be a slayer.
I miss Buffy :(
[> [> [> Longest Active Slayer on the Show --
Claudia, 11:55:07 09/24/03 Wed
I guess this Greek Slayer is, so far, the longest active Slayer
ever.
However, I wanted to know who was the longest active Slayer during
the seven seasons of BUFFY THE SLAYER. My answer? Faith.
That's right. Faith, not Buffy. By the way, this is my only answer,
since I have no idea how long Nikki Wood and the Chinese girl
were Slayers. But I did come to the conclusion that Faith was
the longest active Slayer.
Buffy became the Slayer in 1996, at the age of 15. She ceased
to be the Slayer in 1997, at the age of 16, when the Master killed
her "Prophecy Girl". Kendra became the Slayer in May
or June 1997 and ceased to become the Slayer in May or June 1998.
Faith became the Slayer, after Kendra. And has been the Slayer
ever since. As far as we know, five years had passed between Kendra's
death and the activation of all the Potentials around the world
in "Chosen". And that is when Faith ceased to be "the
Slayer".
As for Buffy, since her death and resurrection in "Prophecy
Girl", she has been the Guardian of the Hellmouth, not the
Slayer. Isn't that what the Shadowmen called her in "Get
It Done"?
[> [> [> [> If that's true... -- Sofdog, 13:45:45
09/24/03 Wed
"Buffy became the Slayer in 1996, at the age of 15. She ceased
to be the Slayer in 1997, at the age of 16, when the Master killed
her "Prophecy Girl". "
...then how do you explain everyone in the series continuing to
refer to Buffy as The Slayer. Caleb called her "the one and
only, the original, accept-no-substitute Slayer."
Why do you feel it's a title that can only be worn by one person?
The fact that it was possible to make more than one implies that
it is possible to share the mantle. That was the whole point of
"Chosen."
[> [> [> [> [> This topic touches on a pet peeve
of mine -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:46:58 09/24/03 Wed
Just because Buffy's death won't instigate the Calling process
doesn't make her any less of a Slayer.
First, in "Potential", it's revealed that every potential
slayer has the Slayer powers inside them; the Calling process
just unlocks those powers. So there wasn't some essence of the
Slayer that moved into Buffy when she was called and move on to
Kendra when she died.
Second, being called "the Hellmouth's last guardian"
doesn't mean Buffy isn't the Slayer. It's debatable if this is
even an official title. And, if it is, it doesn't have to carry
any mystical significance. Even supposing that it is an official
title and has mystical significance, though, there's still no
reason Buffy can't be both the Slayer and the Hellmouth's Guardian.
Third, Buffy has retained every other aspect of Slayerdom. She
still had all the strength, speed, fighting ability, and healing
powers she had before dying. She continued to have prophetic dreams.
She retained a connection to Slayer related magic (the Shadowmen's
portal, the "Intervention" ritual, the First Slayer,
the Scythe). And, in "Graduation Day II", only the blood
of a Slayer could cure Angel, and Buffy's blood did the trick
just fine.
Given all this evidence, I don't see how Buffy can be labelled
as anything other than a Slayer.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: slayerness -- Robert,
15:23:50 09/24/03 Wed
I would add yet another reason.
Fourth, even after Kendra and Faith came on the scene, Buffy still
accepted the primary responsibility for the safety of humanity.
Faith may have possessed the active slayer line, but she abdicated
her responsibility to humanity. Even worse, she willingly chose
to work toward the destruction humanity.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Slayerhood is not
the same as fertility -- sdev, 21:36:02 09/24/03 Wed
I'm beginning to get an image of Buffy the barren Slayer. Why
is her inability to create an offspring (with her death, no less)
determinitive of her Slayer status?
Carve another notch on JW's feminist belt.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: slayerness
-- Claudia, 09:07:47 09/25/03 Thu
[ would add yet another reason.
Fourth, even after Kendra and Faith came on the scene, Buffy still
accepted the primary responsibility for the safety of humanity.
Faith may have possessed the active slayer line, but she abdicated
her responsibility to humanity. Even worse, she willingly chose
to work toward the destruction humanity.]
Maybe that's why the Shadowmen called her "Guardian of the
Hellmouth" and not the Slayer.
[> [> [> [> Re: Longest Active Slayer on the Show
-- Ames, 14:36:31 09/24/03 Wed
If we're going to include the comics, one of them told the story
of a Japanese Slayer who became a vampire and survived until the
present day (kept secret by the Watchers). Was she still a Slayer
or not? Was Buffy the Vampire in Nightmares still a Slayer?
But you're right about Buffy not being the "active"
Slayer. Buffy and Giles were confused about this and appeared
to contradict it at times, but the evidence in the show is clear
(Kendra died, Faith called. Buffy died, nobody called). Joss has
confirmed in response to direct questions that Faith is the active
Slayer. But Buffy is still a Slayer, and this is probably the
only time in history that there's been two at once. It's just
the word "active" that clouds the question here.
And the Shadowmen don't call her "The Guardian of the Hellmouth",
they call her the *last* guardian of the Hellmouth. Not clear
if a Slayer has always been the guardian of the Hellmouth.
[> [> [> [> [> Buffy's still an active Slayer
-- Finn Mac Cool, 14:58:02 09/24/03 Wed
She's active in the sense that she's still out doing her job as
the Slayer. Perhaps the better term would be that she's no longer
the "fertile" Slayer.
Also, I believe I once read a comment by Joss Whedon where he
said the following comic books were part of canon: "Tales
of the Slayer" (written by Joss and several other ME writers),
"The Origin" (written by Christopher Golden but based
on Joss's original Buffy script), and Joss's own "Fray"
mini-series.
[> [> [> [> [> Opinion of comics as canon?
-- Robert, 15:36:52 09/24/03 Wed
>>> If we're going to include the comics, ...
Joss wrote Fray and several stories in Tales of the
Slayer. He controlled the mythology in both books. For this
reason, I consider them to be part of the canon of BtVS. Likewise,
since Joss wasn't in the process to control the mythology of the
novels and assorted other comic books, I do not consider them
part of the canon.
I consider this point important only to the extent that I worry
about the self-consistancy of the overall story. Other than Fray
and Tales of the Slayer, I haven't read any of the novels
or comics books. However, if they are anything like the free-for-all
of the Star Trek novels, I'm sure that the mythology would be
a total mess should we try to fit it all together. What do others
think?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Joss has gone on record
that he doesn't even read the prose spin-offs -- KdS, 16:17:56
09/24/03 Wed
I think the way he expressed it was that even if a writer wanted
to do an anti-abortion allegory as a spin-off novel, he couldn't
stop them. (Apologies to any pro-lifers here, Joss said it, not
me.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed. Joss's name makes
it Canon. -- Sofdog, 07:41:08 09/25/03 Thu
I have read the "Tales of the Slayers" gn, and both
"Tales of the Slayer" short story collections. Plus,
the "Fray" series. All of these seem to be valid canon
as a)Joss is involved with them, and b) they are designed to work
with the mythology of the show. The First Slayer, the Scythe these
things move back and forth between these books and the show. Most
of the short stories are fluff that doesn't much touch on the
Buffy saga, but Joss' name is on those.
It makes sense that he doesn't bother with the other comics or
the tie-in novels. That would be too dangerous creatively. As
it is, the Potentials/First Evil story line came perilously close
to the plot of "Spike & Dru: Pretty Maids All in a Row."
[> two more years -- skeeve, 14:41:51 09/24/03 Wed
Considering her death rate, Buffy can expect two or three more
years before her next death.
Willow vs Tara -- JBone, 20:18:37
09/23/03 Tue
You know, I'm really sorry that I didn't establish my lesbo street
cred before I got into this relationship. You're the only woman
I've ever fallen in love with, so how on earth could you ever
take me seriously?
http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html
Post your scathing comments here, at the voting site, or email
me. And you can check out results at the sweet
16 page.
Replies:
[> are you KIDDING me with this! -- Nino, 20:30:21
09/23/03 Tue
[> MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!! -- Apophis, 21:20:52 09/23/03
Tue
The day of reckoning is upon us, my children! You wanted your
precious Tara, now you have her! But, in order to keep your lovely
witchcorpse, you have to make her mutilate her lover, the perenial
fan-favorite Willow! You wanted interesting times, now you got'em!
I voted for Willow, of course. See, the thing about Willow is,
she had a personality in the first episode. Not only that, but
her personality changed and developed over time. Tara... well,
Tara was nice. And was a lesbian. And got shot. The end. Besides,
Willow already proved that she could break into Tara's head and
mess around anytime she wants. She could just make her walk off
a cliff, or fight bears, or wear latex... anyway, you get the
point. Now, one final message: None of this "tie" BS,
alright. Chose one or the other; no fence stradling. This ends
NOW!
[> [> Wait. Go back to the "Tara in Latex"
part. You've got my attention. -- cjl, 21:36:07 09/23/03
Tue
[> [> Voted for Willow for exactly the same reasons ;-)
-- s'kat, 23:35:50 09/23/03 Tue
I am voting for all characters whose original first name started
with the letter W just as a matter of course.
My true difficulty will be when Wes goes against Willow
or Willow against William the Bloody. Until then? I'm fine.
[> [> [> Re: Voted for Willow for exactly the same
reasons ;-) -- Jay, 19:00:12 09/24/03 Wed
Let's see, it's possible for Willow and the Bloody to meet in
the final four (meaning they both have to win their region). But
Wes has to make it through two slayers and the Demon region champ
to make to the Apocalypse finals to meet either Willow or the
Bloody.
I guess I'm saying, don't start worrying about who you're going
to vote for yet.
[> [> [> [> Handicapping the semi-finals, the final
four and the championship -- cjl, 19:25:11 09/24/03 Wed
BUFFY v. GUNN: A respectable showing for Charles Gunn, Esq., but
Buffy is hardcore on a level beyond his understanding. She meets
the winner of WES v. FAITH, which is one of the most droolworthy
matches in the tournament. I say Faith edges Wes by the slimmest
of margins, and the Buffster takes the region. Two hot chicks
with superpowers. Mmmmm...good times.
XANDER v. ANYA: I was astounded by Xander's margin of victory.
I thought my favorite ex-demon would tally a huge sympathy vote
after getting screwed over by Joss in S7, but the Xan-man's support
system is obviously stronger than I anticipated. Judging from
his victory, I'm now fairly confident that Xander will defeat
CORDELIA to win the region.
WILLOW is losing Tara again--but this time, it's by HER OWN HAND.
(Cue dramatic music.) Look for Giles to do what he secretly wanted
to do at the end of Buffy S5 and wipe out li'l Dawnie, setting
the stage for a Willow/Giles Wicca/Watcher finale. Look for a
near-total gender gap in the vote, with each voter lining up behind
the Scooby of the opposite sex. Complete toss-up. As will be...
SPIKE v. ANGEL for the vampire championship. We've been waiting
for this one for years. (Buffy's got the hot oil ready.) Expect
a huge voter turnout, and--JBone? Considering the volatility of
this contest, I would implement a MANDATORY comment clause in
the voting here, so each voter can be accounted for at the end.
If there's suddenly going to be 325 votes in this contest, we
should have a record of every single one of them.
PREDICTED FINAL FOUR: Buffy v. Xander and Willow v. Spike.
PREDICTED FINAL: Buffy v. Spike.
PREDICTED WINNER: Buffy. Captain Peroxide has an army of devoted
fans, but he has a near-equal number of people who hate his guts.
The Buffster may have that superiority complex, but maybe she
just IS superior.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Handicapping the semi-finals,
the final four and the championship -- s'kat, 21:58:55
09/24/03 Wed
As a point of interest? The Buffy Yearbook did a contest amongst
all the seasons big bads.
The final four were Angelus vs. Glory.
Dark Willow vs. Spike.
The final two Angelus vs. Dark Willow.
The final winner? Angelus.
No here I disagree - in Buffyverse? Dark Willow would win, hands
down. Heck Good Willow took out Angelus just by giving him back
his soul. Actually I think she might take the contest here - you
never know.
[> Re: Willow vs Tara -- Celebaelin, 04:58:12 09/24/03
Wed
Love lies bleeding. I very nearly voted for the enigmatic Tara,
I still think Willow didn't really 'get' her totally, but at the
last moment reality reared its' ugly head and I had to go with
what's likely to happen rather than what's just or fair. In a
staggeringly incongruous display of insensitivity, comparable
only to Morgan-le-Fey's 'where babies come from' speech to Mordred
for sheer self-centered spite, Dark Willow magically coerces all
the fight out of Tara and makes her mop the floor with her head.
Dark Willow strides menacingly into the next round.
[> Re: Willow vs Tara -- Caira, 07:08:23 09/24/03
Wed
Tara. Because Willow might have been a more complex character
from the start, but at least there was some logic applied to Tara's
development (and use of magic --- *cough*hack*Orpheus*hack*cough*)
in her last two seasons. Plus, hey, if it's between Snarky!Tara
and MagiCrack!Willow, which would you prefer? And should they
find they have better things to do than fight, well, it just so
happens that Tara's on top at midnight, so technically...
[> How could this happen?! -- MaeveRigan, 08:29:30
09/24/03 Wed
First, just have to say that the Sweet 16 line-up could only have
been brought about by nothing less nefarious than the First Evil--but
then, we knew it was impossible to destroy in this world.
So--Willow v. Tara. Can't they just be kissing each other now?
No? All right. Big confrontation, argument, tears, magic fireworks.
No actual wiccans were harmed in the course of this contest. Tara
concedes--she's just happy to be back in the world, even if it's
to fight with Willow--and then the big make-up sex. Willow wins
that round, too, several ways, most of which are fun for Tara
as well.
Mummy Girl = Brann --
skeeve, 09:03:11 09/24/03 Wed
Brann is Jo Clayton's Drinker of Souls.
Brann had an interesting way of dealing with her problem.
Brann would wander around in dark alleys and such waiting for
someone to try to rape, rob, or kill her.
Said someone would get drunk.
In Drinker of Souls, it seemed to go without saying that her food
had to be human and had to be killed.
The Mummy Girl, whose name was not Ampata, did seem to have a
choice.
She started to drain Xander, but stopped without permanantly injuring
him.
It's not completely clear that partly draining Xander fed her
any, but if it did, there was an obvious solution to her problem.
Replies:
[> Mummy Girl = Brann accidently posted twice, may delete
-- skeeve, 11:33:58 09/24/03 Wed
Doublemeat Palace Doubleshiftiness
-- Celebaelin, 11:48:39 09/24/03 Wed
I've just watched DMP again on Sky having only seen the BBC2 broadcast
previously and of all the reruns I've seen this is the one with
the most radical changes in edit.
As I recall from the BBC2 version even the earlier (6PM) showing
still had the dodgy scene in the alley included as it wasn't that
graphic, at least what I've seen of it so far wasn't. Sky omitted
this but included a whole lot of extra stuff at and around the
climax, with more Demon dialogue about the paralysis, Willow recounting
Amy's potestas double dealing over the intercom, Buffy
crawling around on the floor of the cooking area persued by the
wig lady's 'bald headed warrior'. We also see very clearly that
this demon appendage has teeth and we see it spit at Willow, a
scene the BBC apparently thought too uncouth for early evening
viewing. Also the scene where Willow puts the severed wang in
the meat grinder was extended and the footage of the yellowish-green
mince that was the consequence was similarly a surprise, as was
the stereo 'Ewww' from both Willow and the rapidly recovered Buffy.
To include all this extra material there might well have been
further omissions cw the Beeb's version but I couldn't spot them
from memory. Maybe the hour allocated for Buffy on Sky, albeit
with adverts, as opposed to the 45 minute BBC slot allowed time
for the additional length.
If there's that much room for manoeuvre it makes me wonder about
a couple of things, namely:-
Has anybody noticed similar radical changes, particularly additions,
in what is aired in other episodes?
If this is not unique or unusual is all the extra footage usually
included in the DVD version?
Particularly bearing in mind the recent high standing of DMP in
the Worst of Buffy nominations how would the omission of the Spuffy
knee trembler affect peoples opinion of the episode?
In this last case, without the sexual payoff Spike seems to me
to come over in this episode as a far more sympathetic character
who has Buffy's best interests at heart, in a rather romantic
way in fact IMO. He offers her a way out of the drudgery, which
other scenes make it apparent she hates, even though there is
potentially a price to pay in terms of dependance on his financial
support.
In case you don't recognise it the title of this post comes from
Buffy's line when Mannie the manager tells her she's pulling a
double shift
Why the double shiftyness?
For your edification and delight the results of the Worst Buffy
nominations in the recent thread were as follows
Where the Wild Things Are (12)
As You Were (9)
Bad Eggs (6)
Doublemeat Palace (6)
Beer Bad (4)
Go Fish (4)
Ted (4)
Teachers Pet (4)
I Was Made To Love You (3)
Gingerbread (3)
Into the Woods (3)
Wrecked (3)
I Robot, You Jane (3)
Him (3)
Some Assembly Required (2)
Bargaining (I & II) (2)
Bar (1)
C
Replies:
[> Re: Doublemeat Palace Doubleshiftiness -- RJA, 12:25:58
09/24/03 Wed
Never noticed any realy big changes in aired episodes (but mainly
because I would only ever know whats really missing after having
seen the full version on DVD, and reruns to me are mainly background)
- apart of course, from Sky's infamous cut to Villains. 'Willow,
what did you do?'.. something the audience would have liked to
have known too.
Channel 4 were the worst for cuts though, with Angel, making some
episodes meaningless.
The DVD versions are all uncut though, as far as I know, so we
see what the Americans get to see.
Interesting question you ask about DMP though, I had never considerd
that the reason why people may not like it had anything to do
with joyless Spuffy sex.
And for the record, shamefully, I reall enjoyed the episode.
And the list of worst episodes also contains 6 I really enjoy
(Doublemeat Palace,I Was Made To Love You, Wrecked, Him, Some
Assembly Required, Bargaining (I & II))
I am a freak among fans, it is true.
[> [> Joining you in freakiness -- shambleau, 13:22:34
09/24/03 Wed
Although not for Bargaining II. It felt padded to me. They didn't
have enough material for the second half, so they lengthened the
scenes of demon mayhem and the scene on the tower. My worst eps
are ones that bored me, not ones that irritated me. Gone, WOTW,
Im talking to you!
For all the rest though, I'm with you!
[> [> [> Duly Noted -- Celebaelin, 13:32:33
09/24/03 Wed
The Home Office -- Buffys#1fan,
13:22:49 09/24/03 Wed
What was it because I really didn't get Reprise since Angel got
the ring but didn'ttransprt him anywhere and where do the Senior
Partners come from?
Replies:
[> I haven't seen the episode, but, from what I've read
. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:53:02 09/24/03 Wed
The ring did take him to the Home Office. It's just that the Senior
Partner wasn't coming from the Home Office, it was coming to the
Home Office. Wolfram & Hart's Home Office is placed on Earth in
their earth based offices. The Senior Partners do seem to come
from another dimension (as is hinted at in "Reprise"
and "Long Day's Journey"), but Angel asked to go to
the Home Office dimension, so that's where the ring took him:
right back to earth.
[> [> It runs deeper than that -- KdS, 16:21:23
09/24/03 Wed
The point was to demonstrate to Angel that evil was present in
all human beings, that it was part of the world and wasn't some
external thing from a demon dimension. That was what drove him
to attempt suicide, (which shows how far he'd sunk mentally that
season, because in S1 he always acted in ways that suggest he
was aware of that).
[> [> [> Suicide? -- Masq, 17:03:51 09/24/03
Wed
It's an interesting question. Angel goes home, finds Darla, and
jumps in bed with her, believing fully he'll have a moment of
true happiness and lose his soul.
I.e., become Angelus.
Is that suicide? I"ve longed believed that Angelus is just
the dark side of Angel -- a metaphor for the impulses he and everyone
human have inside themselves that we don't act on except in moments
of weakness or that sociopaths act on with careful studied non-chalance.
Losing his soul isn't suicide, it's despair, giving in to your
weakness because you think it doesn't matter anymore.
[> [> [> [> I think Angel saw it that way --
KdS, 17:19:12 09/24/03 Wed
Angel wants to be alive, he's just given up hope of achieving
it as some kind of mystic reward, and hasn't realised yet that
he was wrong to expect it as such. As Angel sees it, the soul
is all that makes him something close to human, more than just
an undead thing. As a souled vamp, he's in a limbo state between
undeath and truly living, and so he's deliberately stepping away
from life and towards death. And remember how he's paralleled
with Kate's entirely mundane and unmetaphorical suicide attempt.
[> [> [> [> [> Of course he did -- Masq,
18:33:28 09/24/03 Wed
Angel has always had some denial about Angelus. Although he almost
always says "I" when talking about things he did as
Angelus (the only exception being at the end of S. 4 of AtS),
he also says, "That wasn't me!" in Amends about the
deeds of Angelus.
People have commented that he has a form of Dissociative Disorder
when it comes to Angelus, and who could blame him? If you'd done
the kinds of things Angelus has and are now trying to be a better
person, you might want to deny that he is you.
But Angel knows in his heart that Angelus is just an aspect of
himself. Otherwise, why bother trying to make amends at all?
[> [> [> [> [> [> That does not the same
person make. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:54:34 09/24/03 Wed
No one can deny that Angelus is an aspect of Angel. However, there
is an argument to be made that, once you remove a key aspect of
someone's personality (such as their ability to empathise with
other people and their drive to do good), they are no longer the
same person. They are part of the original person, but not truly
the same entity. When Angel loses his soul, the character of Angel
as we know him is gone as a great component of who he is is removed.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Is Angel still trying to
make amends? -- Diana, 09:16:09 09/25/03 Thu
Or is he just trying to live his life the best he can? He's admitted
that he can't make amends, even if he thought Angelus was him.
At this point, I just see him trying to make the world a better
place, not because he made it a bad place once upon a time, but
because he cares. His epiphany isn't I need to make up for things,
but that people suffer and he wants to help them. He doesn't need
making amends to motivate him not to be a monster any more. He
learns he isn't one.
Now he just has to learn that neither is Angelus.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Is Angel still
trying to make amends? -- Arethusa, 09:48:01 09/25/03 Thu
My Shadow
by Robert Louis Stevenson
I have a little shadow that goes in and out with me,
And what can be the use of him is more than I can see.
He is very, very like me from the heels up to the head;
And I see him jump before me, when I jump into my bed.
The funniest thing about him is the way he likes to grow--
Not at all like proper children, which is always very slow;
For he sometimes shoots up taller like an india-rubber ball,
And he sometimes goes so little that there's none of him at all.
He hasn't got a notion of how children ought to play,
And can only make a fool of me in every sort of way.
He stays so close behind me, he's a coward you can see;
I'd think shame to stick to nursie as that shadow sticks to me!
One morning, very early, before the sun was up,
I rose and found the shining dew on every buttercup;
But my lazy little shadow, like an arrant sleepy-head,
Had stayed at home behind me and was fast asleep in bed.
http://www.lnstar.com/mall/literature/rls/MyShadow.htm
[> [> [> [> i strongly disagree -- anom, 21:46:35
09/24/03 Wed
"It's an interesting question. Angel goes home, finds Darla,
and jumps in bed with her, believing fully he'll have a moment
of true happiness and lose his soul."
I don't think he believes that at all. He says he needs to feel
something--"anything besides the cold." That doesn't
sound like he has any expectation of remotely approaching true
happiness. He can't, & I think he knows it. Even if a part of
him may want that escape & be thinking maybe it'll happen,
at base he knows better. Darla doesn't--she has no way of understanding
why it wouldn't--& she thinks that's what's happening the next
morning when Angel doubles over & is apparently in pain. But it's
not.
I hadn't thought of it before, but this raises the question of
what is happening to Angel the morning after. Of course,
we the audience have to think he might be losing his soul. But
what's the excuse? What's really happening? Is it some kind of
psychosomatic reaction? It's never explained.
[> [> [> [> [> Lorne explained it -- Diana,
09:20:39 09/25/03 Thu
I hadn't thought of it before, but this raises the question
of what is happening to Angel the morning after. Of course, we
the audience have to think he might be losing his soul. But what's
the excuse? What's really happening? Is it some kind of psychosomatic
reaction? It's never explained
"What's to understand? You think you're the first guy
who ever rolled over, saw what was lying next to him and went
'Guyeah!' And you're not. Believe me. - It's called
a moment of clarity, my lamb. And you've just had one.
Sort of appalling, ain't it? To see just exactly where you've
gotten yourself?"
[> [> [> [> [> [> that's not entirely clear
-- anom, 15:52:39 09/25/03 Thu
Angel's line before the ones you quoted from Lorne is "I'm
still not sure I understand what happened." There's nothing
in the preceding dialogue (at least in the transcript at Buffy
vs Angel) to indicate whether "what happened" refers
to Angel's physical reaction or to the whole thing, starting when
he showed up at Darla's. It's not likely he meant "Why didn't
I lose my soul?"--he seems pretty clear on that the morning
after his night w/Darla. I don't think "a moment of clarity"
explains what we saw--Angel's physical reaction that morning.
[> [> [> [> Does an alcoholic attempt suicide when
s/he decides to get drunk? -- Diana, 09:10:34 09/25/03
Thu
Cause that is what Angel did. He tried to fall off the wagon.
He went to the bar, ordered a drink, had it put in front of him,
but he just couldn't get drunk.
And that is why I love him.
Not disagreeing with you Masq, just supporting you with an analogy.
[> [> [> [> [> That's where the booze analogy
doesn't work -- KdS, 15:52:21 09/25/03 Thu
Anyone who's addicted to any form of substance, if they relapse,
can still pull themselves back to sobriety. Angel, if he loses
his soul, has to get it put back by some external agency. As another
poster recently stressed elsewhere, he's not Spike who has enough
residual humanity in his soulless state to go and get a soul to
try to live up to someone else.
Happy New Year to all celebrants
and observers (5764) -- sdev, 22:16:19 09/24/03 Wed
Replies:
[> thanks! l'shanah tovah to you too... -- anom, 21:41:26
09/25/03 Thu
..& to anyone else celebrating it. Also a belated happy equinox
to anyone who observes that. Am I leaving anything out?
Spike, the Only True Danger?
-- Claudia, 09:40:20 09/25/03 Thu
Was Spike really the only true danger to the Scoobies and the
Potentials in Season 7? Weren't they all, in some form or another?
Or at least most of them?
Replies:
[> Re: Spike, the Only True Danger? -- Earl
Allison, 10:14:22 09/25/03 Thu
Not sure I understand the question? Who is the "all"
you refer to?
Do you mean that the Scoobies and Potentials themselves were threats
to each other? I suppose Willow could have been, as could an empowered
Anyanka, but actual threats tended towards ...
The Bringers were certainly a threat, since they'd dispatched
so many Potentials (Eve, for one) already.
Spike was more of a threat when Buffy allowed him to run around
free AFTER learning about the trigger issue, but that's IMHO more
of a (lack of) Quality Control on the series at that point.
The biggest threat to the Potentials, IMHO? Buffy herself. Her
terrible attitude and behavior coupled with her tactical inability
and refusal to treat anyone with a pulse decently were more of
a threat to them than anything. It helped drive Chloe to suicide
(I wonder if the First didn't actually appear to her as Buffy,
that's a scene I wish I could have seen -- and WHO had the prophetic
dream and did nothing? Buffy did), and she never turned to Buffy
at all. To me, that is somewhat telling.
And yes, I blame the writers, not the actual character, but Buffy
is as much a victim as Spike insofar as the words crammed into
her mouth and the puppet dance the ME staff made her play. Buffy
is front and center, so she gets the "blame" for it.
Take it and run.
[> [> Huh? -- Claudia, 11:06:43 09/25/03 Thu
[Not sure I understand the question? Who is the "all"
you refer to?
Do you mean that the Scoobies and Potentials themselves were threats
to each other? I suppose Willow could have been, as could an empowered
Anyanka, but actual threats tended towards ...
The Bringers were certainly a threat, since they'd dispatched
so many Potentials (Eve, for one) already.
Spike was more of a threat when Buffy allowed him to run around
free AFTER learning about the trigger issue, but that's IMHO more
of a (lack of) Quality Control on the series at that point.
The biggest threat to the Potentials, IMHO? Buffy herself. Her
terrible attitude and behavior coupled with her tactical inability
and refusal to treat anyone with a pulse decently were more of
a threat to them than anything. It helped drive Chloe to suicide
(I wonder if the First didn't actually appear to her as Buffy,
that's a scene I wish I could have seen -- and WHO had the prophetic
dream and did nothing? Buffy did), and she never turned to Buffy
at all. To me, that is somewhat telling.
And yes, I blame the writers, not the actual character, but Buffy
is as much a victim as Spike insofar as the words crammed into
her mouth and the puppet dance the ME staff made her play. Buffy
is front and center, so she gets the "blame" for it.
Take it and run.]
HUH?
[> No clue what you're talking about -- Random, 10:21:30
09/25/03 Thu
This question makes no sense to me because 1) I've yet to hear
anybody argue that Spike was the only true danger; and 2) Spike
wasn't even one of the bigger dangers in S7. Not clue what threat
Xander posed, or Giles. We were already presented with the danger
of Willow. It's old news. Are you suggesting that there's a movement
to demonize Spike? Cause that's under-the-bridge stuff.
[> [> Huh? -- Claudia, 11:07:50 09/25/03 Thu
[This question makes no sense to me because 1) I've yet to hear
anybody argue that Spike was the only true danger; and 2) Spike
wasn't even one of the bigger dangers in S7. Not clue what threat
Xander posed, or Giles. We were already presented with the danger
of Willow. It's old news. Are you suggesting that there's a movement
to demonize Spike? Cause that's under-the-bridge stuff.]
HUH?
[> [> [> It was pretty self-evident. Sorry you can't
understand. -- Random, 11:10:42 09/25/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> It Was? -- Claudia, 11:16:42
09/25/03 Thu
Sorry, but your post was no more self-evident to me than mine
was to you.
[> [> [> [> It was -- anon, 16:41:27 09/25/03
Thu
[> [> [> Re: Huh? -- LadyStarlight, 20:25:39
09/25/03 Thu
If you don't understand your own question well enough to clarify
it for others, perhaps it's time to step back and decide what
you're really posting.
[> Re: Spike, the Only True Danger? -- RJA, 13:26:47
09/25/03 Thu
Well since we only have more questions to your questions, I'm
still curious.
What did you mean when you asked that Spike was the One True Danger?
Was it said that he was such on the show?
If so, I would disagree and say that he was one of many dangers
in season seven, and temporary at that.
pregnant slayers -- skeeve,
10:42:45 09/25/03 Thu
Thousands of nubile slayers.
A smaller number of sexually active slayers.
A much smaller number of sexually active slayers relying exclusively
on birth control pills for contraception.
At least that many pregnant slayers.
The reason is slayer healing powers.
Birth control pills are designed to make a female body not work
normally.
A slayer's body can heal such damage real fast.
I leave to others the discussion of the consequences of having
pregnant superstrong women running around.
Replies:
[> Re: pregnant slayers -- Miyu tVP, 10:59:45 09/25/03
Thu
I don't think the pill argument works... (the pill doesn't 'injure'
a woman's body, so healing powers wouldn't counteract its effects
anymore than tylenol...)
but all the same, pregnancy seems a possiblity. It's still kind
of up for debate whether Wood's mom was a slayer before or after
he was born...
Interesting thought experiment though, if a potential happened
to be prgenant at the time she is called. (One could argue that
being pregnant might make one an unlikely candidate for being
called....) How would it affect her child? whether male or female,
would some part of the power be passed on? Sort of brings to mind
Dune - when Paul's mom, unbeknowst to anyone, is pregant while
undergoing her initiation ritual, and gives birth to a strangely
powerful little girl. Fuzzy on the details as it's been a while.
But, still a cool idea.
And beyond that, if Buffy or Faith or any of them in fact decide
they want to have a kid... how would their owns unique biology
affect her pregancy and her child?
[> [> tylenol -- skeeve, 15:44:39 09/25/03 Thu
Whether tylenol would work isn't clear either.
Healing probably means returning to standard state.
For the age range of slayers, that means fertile.
It also means without a headache, so the slayers probably wouldn't
need tylenol.
Joss has more or less explicity stated that slayers can get pregnant,
so standard state does not mean unpregnant.
On a happier note, with so many slayers around, a pregnant one
can probably take "the day" off.
That assumes that she "worked" in the first place.
There doesn't appear to be any effort to educate the non-Sunnydale
slayers about the meaning of slayerhood.
[> An alternative explanation -- Gyrus, 11:11:53
09/25/03 Thu
I would think that one solid punch in the gut taken during a fight
with a vampire would have ended a lot of those Slayer's pregnancies
pretty early on. I mean, pregnant women are discouraged from activities
in which they might fall down (like skiing); for the mother to
engage in bare-knuckle fights with super-strong foes would pose
a far greater risk to the developing fetus.
[> [> Unless the body compensated -- Ray, 11:16:20
09/25/03 Thu
Slayers are so strong, it might be near impossible for them to
miscarry.
[> [> Re: An alternative explanation -- celticross,
11:59:57 09/25/03 Thu
But...would a pregnant Slayer even be able to fight towards the
end of her pregnancy? We're talking a lot of extra weight, in
a rather awkward place. Pregnant women can and should be active
right up until giving birth, but I don't think anyone would dispute
that their mobility gets to be rather limited.
[> [> [> This is very true -- Mackenzie, 12:37:19
09/25/03 Thu
Starting at about the 7th month things being to be very hard.
At 8.5 months shaving my legs is out of the question. A karate
kick to someone's head is just something for me to laugh at!
I guess the Watcher's Counsil would have to find a way to make
other arrangements for a while. After giving birth there would
be time they could fight either, like 4-6 weeks. Well, a slayer
would have the luxury of that fast healing thing, maybe it would
be less time. Lucky dogs!
[> [> [> [> The odds are they'd never get that
far . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:15:16 09/25/03 Thu
What with Slayers fighting vampires and demons on a regular basis,
it seems inevitable that they'd get a few kicks or punches to
the stomach on a periodic basis. This could very well kill the
unborn child before it ever became large enough to hamper Slaying
activity much. In fact, for the Slayers that did get pregnant,
they may have been punched in the gut and miscarried before ever
knowing that they were pregnant.
Granted, this is a pretty sad scenario, but most Slayers' lives
are pretty sad scenarios.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The odds are they'd never
get that far . . . -- tapioca, 17:55:21 09/25/03 Thu
First of all, Hello! I've been lurking for well over a year, love
this board and thought it was about time I posted.
I think the reason we haven't heard of more slayer pregnancies
maybe due to the fact that the majority of slayers were kept isolated
from society. They wouldn't have many opportunities to engage
in relationships with men. The slayers would have been very young
and, like Kendra, probably taken into their watcher's care, away
from the influences of friends and family. In fact Spike points
out in both seasons 2 and 5 that Buffy is unusual in that she
had "ties to the world", friends and family.
Nikki's preganancy and Faith's sexual promiscuity maybe the result
of the affects of women's liberation and empowerment to the point
where slayers feel that they can act against the restrictive slayer
life-style that the Council of Watchers seems to have dictated
to their charges.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The odds are they'd
never get that far . . . -- skeeve, 07:42:41 09/26/03 Fri
Buffy also had the advantage of not being discovered until she
was called.
Otherwise she might not have even heard of women's liberation.
[> As a pregnant woman due in less than 7 weeks -- Mackenzie,
11:47:15 09/25/03 Thu
I would like to say that pregnant slayers would be a wonderful
thing. I have learned about a whole side of life that I never
knew existed. Human kind is more precious than ever to me now.
I would also like to say, those that don't agree, tread lightly.
I am hormonal!! :)
[> [> Re: As a pregnant woman due in less than 7 weeks
-- Miyu tVP, 12:04:32 09/25/03 Thu
first - Congrats! best of luck!
2nd - that's actually an excellent point. Given Spike's discussion
of slayers' death wishes, bearing a child would certainly make
a slayer cling that much more fiercly to life and goodness. I
had been focusing on how it might affect the unborn child, but
it would profoundly affect the slayer herself as well.
Although that didn't quite seem to be the case with Wood's mom???
We're only given a glimpse, and that through Wood's eyes, but
maybe other slayers (Buffy) would handle it better.
[> [> [> we saw it from Wood's (and Spike's eyes)
-- Mackenzie, 12:33:16 09/25/03 Thu
We have to remember that we didn't see it from Nikki's eyes. We
didn't see into her soul like we have with Buffy and to some extent
Faith's. We saw it from an emotionally unmature child and an emotionally
unmature murderer.
Let me put it this way, 9 months ago I had just about a zero interest
in something like gun control. I could have cared less. It wasn't
my problem. Now, I have a firm opinion about them and am ready
to take up the fight for what I believe in.
I think Nikki's experience with motherhood could have made her
more commited to the "cause". It probably intensified
her desire to fight the good fight and protect the innocent. From
Wood's eyes, it seemed that she maybe cared less about him but
I think that children often see their parents actions in the wrong
light. Her commitment didn't mean she loved him less, but more.
Knowing what it is like to create life makes is an AMAZING experience.
Slayers have seemed to only know what it was like to take life.
[> [> Tread lightly, I'm hormonal. My new motto! And
I'm a guy! -- shambleau, 12:05:05 09/25/03 Thu
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