September 2002 posts

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Be Honest. Is anyone else dreading this next season? -- Spike Lover, 08:47:10 09/18/02 Wed

Are you still so shaken with what happened last season that you are dreading how the new season is going to make sense of it...

For example...
I fear that Willow is going to be 'old Willow' again, carefree and book smart(as they try to 'lighten' the show) Having repented of her ways. And the deaths of Warren and Katrina are conveniently dropped. No missing persons posters of Warren displayed at Wal-Mart. No family looking or asking questions. THe police not even bothering to investigate the Katrina thing further, etc., etc., etc. Life of X, B, & W just returning to the way it was before the season started (or Before Season 5 even)... no harm, no foul-- as if it was all a bad dream...

Does anyone else fear Season 7 will be just as crazy/tumultous as last season- as in the writers trying to keep viewers interested and ratings up by either trying to make all the characters 'likeable' again or by continuing to convolute the plot line... while Joss pours all his concentration into his new baby, Firefly.

And what then...? What if Fox cancels Firefly after the first season? (They are notorious for doing that, particularly if it is wayout or expensive to make-- See Space Above and Beyond...)

Will Joss suddenly look back at Buffy (a winner of a show if there ever was one) and take a renewed interest? Will it be too late to save the show from irresponsible writers with too much free rein or to renegoiate a new season with the actors?

Just wondering-

[> Frankly, I'm more looking forward to this season than any other, including last season... -- Rob, 09:25:48 09/18/02 Wed

...which was a torturous summer, due to the whole Buffy dead thing and all.

Rob

[> Re: Be Honest. Is anyone else dreading this next season? (Speculations inside!) -- Earl Allison, 09:28:29 09/18/02 Wed

Am I worried in regards to most of your points? No.

Why? Because ignoring the deaths of Warren and Katrina is hardly new for Sunnydale. Did anyone seriously investigate Kendra's death? The girl's throat was slashed, and evil Mayor or not, that file has to exist SOMEWHERE, as an unsolved murder. What about Jesse from Season One, or the poor unfortunates devoured by the Ascended Mayor (and therefore leaving no bodies)? No bodies, no posters, and technically and legally, no closure. The exchange student killed in "Inca Mummy Girl"? Forgotten, and never followed up on.

To me, that's business as usual in Sunnydale. It's never been an issue before unless it was specifically part of a story arc, so why should it be one now?

What do I dread?

I dread the entire Spike storyline, unless he becomes a villain again. I got more than my fill of Buffy/Spike in S5 and S6; I didn't like it then, and don't expect to like it now. ME could surprise me, but after S6 Spike, it'll have to be pretty good, and NOT retread the Luke-and-Laura plotline -- and I have the sinking suspicion it may.

I dread the possibility (pure speculation) that Faith might be killed to make way for "Dawn the Vampire Slayer" in S8 and beyond, indeed, that DtVS might even be considered as a legitimate idea.

I dread the idea of showing so much reconciliation. Not that you don't have a fair point, ignoring last season isn't necessarily the way to go, but the audience SEEMS to be sick and tired of it, and the more distance put between S6 and S7, the better it seems to many.

Willow should HOPE for being carefree, book-smart Willow. After being turned into an addict and foregoing the far-more-interesting (IMHO) angle of Willow's inability to deal with life's setbacks without magic, I fear for anything less than sweetness and light from the writers for her being terribly handled.

Do I think it will be as crazed? No, for the simple fact that, to most (not all, I know S6 has its fans) viewers, this season just DIDN'T WORK. I think this past season may have been an eye-opener for ME, that just because they write something, it isn't automatically good.

The biggest concern I have? Until and unless SMG makes her decision to stay or go, I think the stories will have to try to cover all possibilities.

This may be the last season for the show -- and I hope it is written accordingly with all due reverance and care.

Take it and run.

[> [> Re: Be Honest. Is anyone else dreading this next season? (Speculations inside!) -- Spike Lover, 09:58:01 09/18/02 Wed

What exactly do you mean by the Luke & Laura Plotline? (GH reference I get, but I don't know the specifics.)

[> [> [> Re: Be Honest. Is anyone else dreading this next season? (Speculations inside!) -- Miss Edith, 11:06:43 09/18/02 Wed

I have heard it was a soap opera couple. Originally Luke raped Laura but because of the chemistry between the two they later got together and became a much loved couple. I believe the rape was played down and refered to as Luke taking a date to far later on rather than using the word rape. Just what I have heard on other forums as living in England I don't know too much about soaps in America.

[> [> Re: Be Honest. Is anyone else dreading this next season? (Speculations inside!) -- TeacherBoy, 11:54:51 09/18/02 Wed

I like this response, though I don't necessarily dread the same things as you (being a for-the-most-part S6 fan). I did, however, want to comment on the last point you made. Normally, the main points of the season are known to the writers before the season even begins. This year, though, things are different. The decision about whether SMG will return has not been made, so therefore the writers cannot know how the season will turn out. This is a huge departure for the show. MY biggest fear is that SMG will not make a decision until the last minute, and this will cause the writers to scramble to put something together in a way that doesn't please anyone - writers, cast or fans.

I should say, however, that I have a great deal of faith in the writing staff. If the writers of "The Sopranos" can change the show on a dime after the death of Livia (Nancy Marchland?), surely the writers of "Buffy" could do the same.

TeacherBoy

[> [> I'm not dreading it at all.... ;-)) -- rabbit, 16:43:55 09/20/02 Fri

[> Spoiler-free response -- dream of the consortium, 09:31:11 09/18/02 Wed

Well, I didn't hate last season. In fact, I thought a lot of it was great, and most of the failures seemed to me brave failures - attempts to bring the show to interesting places that didn't quite work. (You know, even the addiction angle could have been worked, had it been more fully integrated into Willow's desire to feel in control and to remove herself from pain. Just because almost all tv scripts that deal with addiction are painfully shallow and boring doesn't mean that it's impossible to write one that isn't. Oops, now I'm getting off into what I didn't like about the season. Back on topic...) And I am less worried than most, I think, about Willow remaining unchanged, my faith being mostly placed in the fact that Buffy took a whole year to get over being dead. No, my fears and dreads for the season can be summed up in one word:
Dawn.
The whole Dawn-fighting-alongside-Buffy thing at the end of the finale seemed to be a bit of ominous foreshadowing. More Dawn. Lots of Dawn. Research meetings no longer Dawn-free. Nothing Dawn-free. I'm very, very worried.

[> [> Have to agree -- Spike Lover, 10:08:50 09/18/02 Wed

I am not a Dawn fan either. I sort of feel that the writers might want to use Dawn more in order to get a younger audience...

But- at the moment she is suppose to be a supporting character. I think it would have been better to have written her COMPLETELY different. Everything that Buffy started out to be before becoming a slayer. (Rather than troubled, little sister want-to-be, let her be something like Cordelia.) Popular, cheerleader with lots of boyfriends whose reputation may be jeopardized because her sister is 'wierd'. Let Dawn have been something that Buffy envies: the baby of the family, DAddy's favorite, the perfect daughter, who never ran away from home, whose biggest crisis was what color to paint her toenails.

I admit although it might be funny, it would be repetitive, which is another big fear of mine. I fear Dawn will be a sort of carbon copy of (X,W,orB)what we had before or just as you say- 'slayer in training, and Spike will be a carbon copy of what Angel was in Season 2 -guilt-filled and moon eyes over Buffy).

Oh dread-

[> [> [> Re: Spoilers about Dawn's role in next season -- Miss Edith, 11:20:37 09/18/02 Wed

Dawn will have a fairly significant part to play from what I have heard. In the first episode she will be training with Buffy on how to fight and slay which is just what viewers dreaded happenning when Dawn first arrived. She will also make two new friends called Kit and Carlos. They are commonly refered to as the scrappy gang by spoiled fans and apparently the other acters are like Michelle (Dawn) the same age as the characters they play and no one who watched the first episode seems too impressed. The acting is rumoured to be pretty dire and according to almost everyone who has viewed the first episode they are the least interesting part of the the episode which is written by Joss and therefore a possible sign that Dawn will play a larger role in the new season? And of course the writers have been talking up the return to high school with Buffy's little sister. Another spoiler:

Dawn will feature heavily in the seventh episode when one of her classmates has a jacket which makes him irresistable to women. A worrying sign that high school stories will be reworked for Dawn and her friends. At the moment I admit I am concerned but hopefully Dawn will be a more tolerable presence and may become an interesting character worthy of attention.

[> [> [> Re: Have to agree -- Ete, 07:17:24 09/19/02 Thu

"But- at the moment she is suppose to be a supporting character. I think it would have been better to have written her COMPLETELY different. Everything that Buffy started out to be before becoming a slayer. (Rather than troubled, little sister want-to-be, let her be something like Cordelia.) Popular, cheerleader with lots of boyfriends whose reputation may be jeopardized because her sister is 'wierd'. Let Dawn have been something that Buffy envies: the baby of the family, DAddy's favorite, the perfect daughter, who never ran away from home, whose biggest crisis was what color to paint her toenails."

You wanted Queen ? LOL ! But Buffy is no Daria :)

Ete who likes Dawn as she is

[> [> [> New season with the old fingers crossed ... -- Yellowork, 07:44:55 09/19/02 Thu

Great eps since, but the overall seasons have dropped off since season 4, IMHO. It experimented with a more fragmentary style, symbolised by Adam and eventually 'healed' with the three-parter at the end. But the Scooby Gang and its friendships seem to have ossified somewhat since: Dawn's sudden appearance shoved the issue of the previous group dynamic to one side and kept it there. I also feel that the problems with the W/T relationship go back to the end of Season 4, where there was no sufficient room to introduce and explore it between the necessity to round off the Initiative plot-line and the swansong for the almighty Oz. I hope that the new season will set things right, introducing a few minor and regular characters who are in denial about the otherworld, like the rest of Sunnydale; exploring the nature and value of young adult friendships as well as relationships; not spending too much time on the High Schoolers (just because season 4 showed the show had plenty of mileage outside that particular milieu)and more vamps to go with the title! I don't know about 'lightening' / 'darkening' the overall tone; the title is a nice reminder that the show is was and always will be a balance between the two sides. Perhaps the writers should examine classic epic texts such as Beowulf, the Tain, the Aeneid or the Iliad in order to find help with structuring an episodic narrative; a knack that repeatedly gets lost in with the more earnest school of 'character development'.

[> [> Don't be worried about Dawn and next season. It will be great. -- shadowkat, 10:13:05 09/18/02 Wed

While I'm unspoiled.
My spoiled friends assure me next year is not focused heavily on Dawn. Outside of the first episode - she's really not that prevalent.

Actually guys next year is going to be great.

According to the people who have been spoiled? You miss
episode one on Sept 24? You'll hate yourself. It would be like missing Sleep Tight or Loyalty from Ats last year.

I'm really looking forward to it. And working really hard not to be spoiled.

Of course I'm amongst the minority who really loved Season 6, Btvs and loved the darker portions of Season 3 Ats.

So I'm psyched for next year! Excited to see where they take these guys. How the characters develop, etc.

6 more days...right? SK

[> [> [> very very vague spoilery -- shadowkat, 10:18:55 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> You are right! DON"T MISS PREMIRE!! -- rabbit, 16:47:10 09/20/02 Fri

[> [> All I am saying, is give Dawn a chance! -- HonorH, 11:19:54 09/18/02 Wed

Enough with the bursting into song, but really, do give the girl a chance. Don't let prejudices stand in the way. This season will likely have more of her stepping out and handling things on her own, the way Willow and Xander did after first season. She'll have a chance to develop more as a character. It could be very good, as MT has more than shown her capability as an actress. Don't dread; just let the girl show her stuff before casting judgment.

[> [> [> I'm with you, HH! ;o) -- Wisewoman, 13:46:34 09/18/02 Wed

To paraphrase Jessica Rabbit, Dawn isn't really annoying, she's just written that way!

MT is a fine little actress and if things start to turn around in the way her character is written I have faith that she'll be up to the task of portraying a more feisty and more likable Dawn. I'm actually looking forward to seeing her do it. But then, what do I know? I've never predicted anything successfully so far!

;o)

[> [> [> Re: All I am saying, is give Dawn a chance! -- Rattletrap, 15:21:03 09/18/02 Wed

Thank HH, I was just about to say the same thing. I'll admit I am biased, as I've been a huge fan of the character since S5, but I think she really represents a reaffirmation of some of the best parts of BtVS. Over the years, this show has had some of its best moments when telling coming of age stories--the presence of Dawn in the Buffy-verse opens up so much new potential in that realm. Add to that MT's stunning capabilities as an actress and I'm waiting excitedly for whatever is to come.

I am thoroughly excited for this season.

'trap

[> [> [> Just remember her "I'm afraid of me" speech -- tam, 23:43:31 09/20/02 Fri

in the caves with spike, the girl showed more teenage confusion, more feelings -- 'what am I?', 'what am I going to be?', 'do I belong?' -- it was a beautifully written and superbly acted scene

[> [> [> Re: All I am saying, is give Dawn a chance! -- Rufus, 01:06:14 09/21/02 Sat

That won't be hard to do as I've always liked Dawn. Last season everyone had moments when they weren't at their best...we got to see what happens when someone affected by that acts out. If Dawn seemed whiney then maybe someone should consider what she had to whine about.....and that was plenty.

[> Heck no! -- ponygirl, 09:39:39 09/18/02 Wed

Spike Lover, sweetie, I won't try to win you over to the dark charms of season 6, but I hope you will admit that the one thing ME has never shied away from is showing consequences. We just had an entire season of dealing with the after-effects of Buffy's return after all. Things always come back to haunt people on this show, often literally. And while my prediction for this year is: "everything I predict will be likely be wrong", I do feel certain that the Scooby gang will not return to the lives they had before.

[> [> What ponygirl said! :-) -- acesgirl, 09:41:59 09/18/02 Wed

[> Looking forward to it.(No spoilers unless you haven't seen the previews or TVGuide descriptions.) -- Deeva, 09:53:20 09/18/02 Wed

What is there to fear? I don't have the same thoughts that you do on Willow. The writers have brought her too far out to just simply return her to what she was pre-S5. No, she will be a looong way from that Willow. Repent how? And in whose eyes? Willow will never have repented enough in her own eyes, so she can hardly be carefree.

As for Warren and Katrina's deaths being dropped, justice in Buffyverse is not so black & white as it is in RL. Warren's death (as justified as it might have seemed to some) will be dealt with, just not in a court of law.

I think what Joss and Marti meant by going "lighter" this season is that, in hind sight they saw that Season 6 was too dark for too long for many viewers. I personally enjoyed this season, so no skin off my back. And with the return of Sunnydale High and Dawn going to high school, that in itself will introduce a somewhat lighter storyline, less "adult" problems.

[> cautiously hopeful...(no spoilers)...all of your points are good. -- Rochefort, 10:36:21 09/18/02 Wed

I agree with you on everything! But I hear Joss is writing the first episode. So I have been hopeful that he will make it all right. I will be so sad if I have to stop watching Buffy if the reign of Marti continues to shoot up, destroy, convolute, over-write, twist up, and hack hack hack everything we hold dear. (hack!)

[> [> The 'verbs' you use to descibe Marti's actions I COMPLETELY agree with -- Spike Lover, 11:44:18 09/18/02 Wed

[> maybe not "dreading" per se... -- celticross, 10:40:37 09/18/02 Wed

It's more of a sense of "well, how are they gonna fix this?" But as far as what I'd like to see and hope I don't see, a brief list (which may turn out to be not-so-brief :)

1) if Buffy or anyone in SG displays shock that someone with a soul could do a bad thing, I will laugh at them. A lot.

2) I'd love to see Buffy, Willow, and Xander rebuild their friendship, though it's important that they all admit to their various screw-ups during season 6. I'm terribly afraid that Willow will be the only one paying, since her misdeeds were the most obvious and got the most attention. Buffy and Xander didn't fare too well last year either, and a big step towards clearing the air with your friends is admitting you were stupid.

3) I admit, I like Dawn. And I'd like to see her exhibit some nifty glowy Key powers (she really was almost depressing normal last season). But if Faith's return leads to her death and the calling of a new slayer and that slayer is Dawn, much like Earl, my eyes will hurt from the rolling.

4) Spike. Oy. I remain a huge Spike fan, but I have no idea where he's going, or even where I want him to go. I had real hopes for a Buffy/Spike relationship with the beginning of season 6, but after the sound thrashing the ensuing events gave to both parties involved, I'm not thinking that's such a good idea anymore. But I really don't want to see them throw someone new into the mix just as a romantic interest for Buffy.

5) One relationship I do wanna see...Giles and Anya!!!! Just had to throw that out. :)

6) Getting back to serious, though...Can we please figure out a way for Willow to deal with her magic problems without using the word "addiction" ever, EVER again?

7) And lastly, I think Tara's death needs to be dealt with in a meaningful way by the SG. The poor girl was rather forgotten in the madness of Willow's power trip, which is ironic indeed.

[> [> I would love to see a Giles/Anya pairing!! I want Giles back full time!! -- Spike Lover, 11:48:13 09/18/02 Wed

[> Does anyone (besides me) think that "Dawn the vampire slayer" could work? (speculation, no spoilers) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 10:53:22 09/18/02 Wed

First off, I love SMG and the work she has done for the last six years and I'm not entirely sure I want to continue visiting the "Buffyverse" if there's no Buffy, but, I have to confess that the idea of Dawn stepping into the position intriques me. I think it would be just similar enough to seasons 1 & 2 to use the best themes from those years but fresh enough to keep things interesting. Of course, I am a big admirer of Michelle Trachtenberg as an actress and don't blame her for the more annoying aspects of Dawn's personality as much as I do the way she has been written. I think she has real potential and could ring some amazing changes on the established concepts of the show. Okay, everyone can start piling on now and tell me why this is such a bad idea. My Buffy-watching friend absolutely hates the idea and swears he would'nt watch it if it happened (of course, I know he is like the rest of us and could'nt resist the temptation of watching anything Joss had a hand in creating). I know I am in a definite minority here but I just had to speak my mind.

[> [> I think it could. -- HonorH, 11:09:04 09/18/02 Wed

Die-hard Dawn fan here, of course, but I think it could. This season, I think, will have more of Dawn stepping out into her own, and I think a lot of people will be won over by her--if they give her a chance and drop this "she's a younger sister, ergo she's a whiner" idiocy.

Personally, I'd love a "Brats" series. Put Dawn the Slayer and Connor the Vampire's Son together, throw in Spike as Resident Vampire and British Guy and the Spirit of Tara as a guide, plus an original character or so, and I think you could have a fun series. Just a thought.

[> [> [> Yeah! Brats Unite! -- Scroll, 12:02:19 09/18/02 Wed

I honestly think this would work, especially if we can see Dawn's Key powers emerge. I don't think she needs Slayer powers to be able to physically take on a vamp or two, and with Connor's vampire/dhampire strength, Tara's mystical guidance, and maybe a British watcher type (not necessarily Spike), this could be a totally new series but still based on the Buffyverse. It wouldn't even have to be located in Sunnydale (though it would be nice). Willow, Xander, Faith, et al. could drop by for guest appearances. Dawn and Connor shipping is lots of fun and very feasible, even though these two have never even met on screen. Buffy and Angel redux, except with two characters more well-matched and less doom-and-gloom. Could work! =)

[> [> [> [> Re: Yeah! Brats Unite! -- Miss Edith, 14:19:49 09/18/02 Wed

Problem is the writers just don't seem interested in exploring Dawn's key powers. I agree they could be really interesting, and the whole jumior slayer thing is dreaded by nearly all fans as it has been done. Unfortunately there was an emphasis in season 6 on Dawn now being a normal girl. The memeries of her are treated as real and she claims to no longer be the key. She is helpless and unable to defend herself against Willow in the finale. Indeed she is shocked when Willow points out she wasn't always human and denies it. I just get the feeling that if Dawn's key powers were going to be explored the writers would have done so in season 6. There is a real focus on presenting her as a normal girl and Buffy's little sister without question. I would certainly love it if I were proved wrong and something was done with Dawn's powers. I will wait and see.

[> [> Yes -- Cleanthes, 12:07:47 09/18/02 Wed

I know I am in a definite minority here but I just had to speak my mind.

You may be in a minority or you may not. It's substantially easier to write cogent griping than it is to write cogent praise. Newborn babies can complain! Consequently, it's never a good idea to equate the volume of complaints to the actual numbers of people holding that opinion.

I'd love to watch Dawn the Vampire Slayer - especially if it was done as Dawn-MT.Dawn not Dawn-stand.in.for.SMG's.Buffy. There's new material there.

[> [> [> Re: Yes -- Rattletrap, 15:32:13 09/18/02 Wed

You may be in a minority or you may not. It's substantially easier to write cogent griping than it is to write cogent praise. Newborn babies can complain! Consequently, it's never a good idea to equate the volume of complaints to the actual numbers of people holding that opinion.

KaBoom!!! Well said, Cleanthes.

I have to agree that a Dawn series could have lots of potential. I think MT is easily a strong enough actress to carry it on her own, and I think it could find many new stories inaccessible to BtVS as we know it.

Consider this: Dawn is, as far as we know, without Slayer powers, but she still knows about vampires and demons. This, in my mind, raises some fascinating questions. How does she deal with this knowledge, and the knowledge that she lacks her sister's abilities to fight against it? Knowing the truth, she can't turn her back on all this stuff going on in the world. This opens some wonderful storytelling doors that I'd love to see Joss/Marti/Fury/whoever explore.

Like I said, lots of potential, I'd love to see it realized.

Other thoughts?

'trap

[> [> [> [> Re: Yes -- Slain, 17:58:52 09/18/02 Wed

I think many fans see, in Dawn, things which they themselves were guilty of as teenagers. I always makes me laugh when people complain that Dawn is too 'bratty', 'whiny' or 'annoying', as if they were any different at that age, probably worse! And they, no doubt, didn't have the minor afflictions of, say, losing your entire childhood, mother and only sister within the space of a few months. Dawn is every bit as resilient and unselfish as Buffy; perhaps more so, considering her age and circumstances.

[> [> [> [> [> My sentiments exactly! -- Dariel, 18:18:45 09/18/02 Wed

I think the monks must have made her extra strong--how else to explain Dawn's ability to cope under such difficult circumstances? I don't find her bratty or annoying at all--just a young person expressing her feelings. She could have gotten into all kinds of trouble last year, being mostly unsupervised. And all she did was a little shoplifting.

Actually, if ME were going for true-to-life, Dawn would become a real pain in season 7. Some kids don't act out when there's trouble at home; they wait until things are more stable. Less scary for them that way.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes -- meritaten, 15:33:30 09/21/02 Sat

"I always makes me laugh when people complain that Dawn is too 'bratty', 'whiny' or 'annoying', as if they were any different at that age, probably worse! And they, no doubt, didn't have the minor afflictions of, say, losing your entire childhood, mother and only sister within the space of a few months. Dawn is every bit as resilient and unselfish as Buffy; perhaps more so, considering her age and circumstances."

Exactly! Dawn has had every right to be whiny and annoying. Buffy was annoying this season as well, but people didn't come down as hard on her because we knew her from before her removal from heaven.

I think there is a potential for Dawn as a Slayer. I think it might be important that she was made from Buffy, a Slayer. They literally share the same blood - even more so than sisters. ...And, how do we know that Dawn is a helpless human? Have we ever seen her allowed to fight? Buffy and Joyce never allowed Dawn to go patrolling, so she never tried herself in a fight. She never really resisted Glory, becasue she knew it would be fruitless. Did anyone else notice that in the fight scene in the final S6 episode, Dawn fought very well. I find it hard to believe that she, if merely a helpless human, could execute those moves just from watching Buffy.

So, to sum up, I think the storyline could easily allow Dawn to take over. Character-wise, Dawn is actually in better shape than Buffy was prior to her calling. The problem would be to win Dawn enough favor with the fans to allow the show to carry on with her as star.

[> Uh-uh, no way, not even. -- HonorH, 11:04:27 09/18/02 Wed

I understand your concerns, but I don't think you've got anything to worry about. Did Joss let everything suddenly return to hunky-dory after Buffy sent Angel to hell? Did he carry through his promise to "earn" Buffy's resurrection?

I don't think there's anything to worry about with Willow. She's going to be fundamentally changed by what's happened. That can be a good thing. I'm so very much looking forward to next week!

[> No more than any other season--or episode -- leslie, 11:08:57 09/18/02 Wed

To be honest, I await each and every episode with a certain amount of trepidation, due to the what-the-hell-are-they-going-to-come-up-with-next factor. Not "will this be a well-written episode?" but "Am I going to have my guts wrenched out?"

[> [> LOL! Me too..hence the reason -- shadowkat, 11:47:30 09/18/02 Wed

it has been so hard to stay off spoilers. And the reason I think there are more stalker fans hunting spoilers for Btvs than just about any other show.

Marsters said once that all the actors are afraid and enter
the studio in terror b/c let's face it you never know what they might do to you. You could find yourself turning into a snail or a rat.

So I live in dread, because invariably a character I like gets tortured. The good news? They also torture characters I want to see get it. They are equal opportunity writers.
Makes it fun.

[> [> Re: No more than any other season--or episode -- Sarand, 15:16:17 09/18/02 Wed

Oh, I agree. Every Tuesday this past season, if I knew that a new episode was being shown that night, I was on pins and needles. Funny, though, I didn't feel the same way about AtS. I like the show, and some of the episodes were just fantastic. But I didn't have the same feeling of trepidation. Nevertheless, I'm chomping at the bit waiting for both shows to start the new season.

[> Re: Be Honest: The Concept of Dread -- Cleanthes, 11:33:18 09/18/02 Wed

To be honest, I am dreading the new season.

To paraphrase:

Dread or Anxiety is the presupposition of hereditary sin, or at least, error, and because this retrogresses into the distant ontological origins, to see something external upon which one has falsely placed hopes when, of course, one must always and only place hope on what is within the scope of freedom, is, alas, necessarily, and dialectically-fantastically requiring just such dread or anxiety.

Watching television is a wholly discretionary activity done entirely for pleasure. If one does not derive pleasure from that activity, then the sin rests 100% with the viewer. Of course, who does always derive pleasure from aesthetic activities of this sort? Inasmuch as everyone fails to always derive pleasure from wholly discretionary activities, everyone continually demonstrates the existence of original sin.

QED

What's even worse is, I'm really hoping that Willow gets off pretty much scot-free. (is that term politically correct anymore?) Not because she deserves it, but because she doesn't. This hope, though, makes me feel evil.

[> What good does it do to think this way? -- OnM, 13:32:54 09/18/02 Wed

First, I proudly count myself among those who loved Season 6. One genuinely weak ep (*As You Were*), four or five 'just very decent eps', and the rest were stunning/brilliant/classic. What wasn't to love? (Yeah, I know, but what can I say-- I just don't see the weaknesses as all that critical. JMHO).

As I was re-watching Grave last night, it once again occurred to me during the final 10 minutes of the ep that over the course of time, people will look back at this as one of the series' finest years, much like critics initially dissed Blade Runner and a decade later declared it a 'masterpiece'. So, check back around then and we'll see what the passage of time reveals. ;-)

I liked the Dawn character from the beginning, and I not only don't 'dread' her appearances in S7, I look eagerly forward to them. I think that the scene in Grave where Buffy hands the sword to Dawn is absolute foreshadowing that Dawn will play a larger and larger role in the Buffyverse. Just what that role is, I have no idea-- lots of speculation, but no real idea-- and I don't care. I trusted the writers last year when ~~everyone~~ some fans ~~was~~ were bitching and moaning about the Buffy resurrection being the end of the world as they knew it.

Bollocks, saith He Who Shall Not Be Named. But I shall quote him nonetheless.

Will Willow weep and wail? Whatever-- wait and wonder wistfully, will I.

As to Anya, Giles, Xander and all, I won't say anything (being slightly spoiled in this regard), but what I will say without any spoiler specifics is it all sounds very-- neat.

(Bugger! There I go quoting HWSNBN again. Sorry! Sorry!!)

Faith? Dawn? I've stated before in a number of speculative posts that I think there will be a future tie-in of some kind between these two and of course Buffy. Again I have no idea, but again I don't care. There are a number of great possible plot turns that could be constructed, so I have the other kind of faith that all will be most excellent.

Can MT carry her own show? Abso-freakin'-lutely. I doubt very much they would call it 'Dawn the Vampire Slayer'. I'm sure whatever Joss does call it will be cool. Could Eliza Dushku carry a show? Also AFL, but will she want to commit to that? I'm not so sure.

So, Season the Seventh? I am so stoked!!

Bring it on!

:-)

[> [> May I just say: -- HonorH, 13:52:55 09/18/02 Wed

AMEN!!!!!!!!

[> [> [> I see your "Amen" and raise you a "Hallelujah!" -- Rob, 16:38:21 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> As usual, I'm more worried about the fans than the show (! well-known spoiler !) -- Slain, 17:47:26 09/18/02 Wed

I never expect the show to do what I want it to - Season 6 was nothing like I'd have written it, but that's why it was good. Because, like most fans who think they know what's best for the show, I really don't. I don't expect Season 7 to do what I want or what I expect. For a start, Faith's coming back and I can't stand Faith; but I'll stifle my misgivings, confident that the show will be still great, and that a character I dislike will be made interesting. The show is always unfailing good, otherwise I wouldn't watch it. Even the worst Buffy episode is still great in some way which few other TV shows are.

What I'm worried about is more bloody whinging from the fans. Not sensible, rational criticisim but bloody whinging in the "Buffy shouldn't have got with Spike, she should go and marry Angel now, the show's bad now she's with Spike" vein. Tedious complaints in which the show is claimed to be "bad" solely because it doesn't follow a plot direction the viewer would like, without providing any reasoning behind it, except perhaps save for that vile phrase "it wasn't true to the character". I don't think Buffy has ever followed a plot direction I would have chosen myself, but watching with an open mind I've always found I like every plot direction in some way or other.

[> [> [> Totally agree. -- HonorH, 21:54:18 09/18/02 Wed

There's actually not one character I truly can't stand on the show--either show, actually, though I wouldn't cry if Gavin Park got eaten by Angelus (for heaven's sake, give that boy something to do other than annoy Lilah!). However, that's not always been true. Hated first-season Cordy (and people accuse Dawn of whining . . .). Couldn't stand Darla and was glad to see her get knocked off BtVS S1. However, given time and character development, I ended up truly enjoying the both of them. I just hate it when people pre-judge because a particular plotline's about a certain character, and they won't *allow* their minds to be changed. Your attitude, Slain (though I don't understand not liking Faith--she could get me to pinch-hit for the home team, if you know what I'm sayin'), strikes me as the most sensible. Wait and see.

[> [> [> Well said and ditto. -- shadowkat, 05:56:27 09/19/02 Thu

"What I'm worried about is more bloody whinging from the fans. Not sensible, rational criticisim but bloody whinging in the "Buffy shouldn't have got with Spike, she should go and marry Angel now, the show's bad now she's with Spike" vein. Tedious complaints in which the show is claimed to be "bad" solely because it doesn't follow a plot direction the viewer would like, without providing any reasoning behind it, except perhaps save for that vile phrase "it wasn't true to the character". I don't think Buffy has ever followed a plot direction I would have chosen myself, but watching with an open mind I've always found I like every plot direction in some way or other."

Yes...the bloody whinging has gotten on my nerves as well.
But ATP is actually pretty lowkey on it, thank god. Visit other boards, ugh! I left several b/c it was intolerable.

Much prefer analysis to complaining. I have enough complaining in my life all ready. ;-)

Oh and I'd have to agree - the show always surprises me.
None of their plot arcs (except maybe DarkWillow) had I predicted. What I like most about Btvs and Ats is for the life of me, I can't figure out what they will do next. And I never know how it will all end - since there's no guarantee it will be happy. Can't say that about any other shows on TV.

So seconding your prayer - and hoping we can see a little less whining from online fans this year.

SK

[> [> [> [> Re: Well said and ditto. -- MaeveRigan, 10:10:57 09/19/02 Thu

"So seconding your prayer - and hoping we can see a little less whining from online fans this year."

That would be great, but don't count on it. Here's my prediction: B7 will be a success, thus proving that thousands of people like it even better than last season, which was also (according to some polls) also pretty well liked. However, the fanboards won't hear from those people, or not many. As usual, the most vocal (or most rapid typists) will be those insisting on this 'ship or that 'ship (I'm not going to get myself in trouble by naming names!), or more or less screen time for this character or that, or pouting about the story line.

Hey--who's writing this show anyway? Ever wish you could send certain "fans" to the world without shrimp? Or the world with nothing but shrimp?

[> [> [> [> [> How about the World of Perpetual Wednesday? -- HonorH, 10:16:32 09/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> So no criticism is acceptable? -- Earl Allison, 10:34:12 09/20/02 Fri

I could almost understand the sentiment, but frankly, people can (and have) express(ed) REASONS for liking X or Y, or disliking same, at least on these boards.

It sounds dangerously like ANY comments of that ilk, reasoned or not, are being condemned. So much for debate.

But, if such comments are no longer allowed, so be it.

Signing off.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> [> [> You have to ask that on this board? -- HonorH, 11:05:27 09/20/02 Fri

There's a big difference between legitimate criticisms of the show (or an episode) and knee-jerk complaining. I don't think anybody on this board would object to the former. It's the people who the show can't do anything right by as long as their own personal pet 'ship/character isn't the center of the universe that are the real bother.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, I do -- Earl Allison, 12:26:05 09/20/02 Fri

Because that's not what I'm hearing from some although I will admit that I could certainly be wrong (big shock, I know).

But thank you for your words, I really appreciate them.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> He does, unfortunately.... -- mundusmundi, 13:07:50 09/20/02 Fri

Case in point: Immediately after "Tabula Rasa" aired, there was a flurry of "Great episode!" posts, which was all fine and good, but I was a little baffled that there was absolutely no dissention anywhere. It wasn't until this summer that a few posters "came out" and professed dissatisfaction with the episode. Were they too daunted initially? Dunno, but while it's true that this board is far and away more tolerant than everywhere else (I wouldn't be here if it weren't), there were times early last season where there seemed to be a tendency to lump all criticism together as "knee-jerk." (Which seemed in itself to be a knee-jerk reaction.)

Yes, babies can complain. Babies can express delight too. These things are part of our nature and nobody should be made to feel reluctant to express them, especially those who express them well. (Certainly not me!)

-mm

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It goes the other way sometimes too... (some season 6 spoilers) -- Rob, 20:33:41 09/20/02 Fri

I almost felt stupid after posting a good review of "Doublemeat Palace" the night it aired. The next morning, all I saw were posts and posts and posts about how awful it was.

"What's wrong with me that I liked this episode that everyone else despised?" I asked myself.

I even considered, for a while, changing my opinion about the episode to fit in.

But ya know what? I just couldn't. Months later, I still enjoy that episode, with my dignity still intact.

The larger group opinion can almost always intimidate someone. I encourage any criticism--pro or con--of any episode, especially if someone will actually come out and support the opposite opinion of everyone else (whether one person says he or she hates an ep everybody else loved, or vice versa).

For a while, I thought I was the only Season Six Lover, but quite a few more people have come out of the season six closet since then, and, whether I'm in the minority or not (not sure how exactly the numbers ended up), I'm happy.

I would like to say though that I appreciate when criticism, bad or good, does not come off as whiny or abusive. Sometimes people can have a tendency to make broad statements about something they liked on the show and try to raise that by bringing down other things on the show, be they plot developments or characters. That's what I don't like.

I would like to add though at what a great, nurturing board this is. Although I didn't follow the major group opinion for much of last year, I never felt seriously out of the group for having different opinions, and I never felt attacked. There are some other boards out there where it's impossible to say that you're a fan of "Seeing Red"--attempted rape, lesbian death, and all--without being crucified.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It goes the other way sometimes too... (some season 6 spoilers) -- celticross, 20:48:46 09/20/02 Fri

"For a while, I thought I was the only Season Six Lover, but quite a few more people have come out of the season six closet since then, and, whether I'm in the minority or not (not sure how exactly the numbers ended up), I'm happy."

You know, the funny thing is, after TTG/Grave, I was convinced I was the only person on the board who hadn't liked it. Hence, I didn't mention for months that I'd been unimpressed with both the season finale and the majority of the season that had led up to it. Interesting how perceptions of others' opinions affects us.... :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Quite true.... -- mundusmundi, 07:10:36 09/21/02 Sat

But then again, you're Rob, Rob!;) You're a longstanding, well-liked poster. You're the person with whom I shared a recent "Guilty Pleasures" movie column that all of five people read between us, so while we don't always see eye-to-eye I usually have an affinity for what you're saying. My main concern is that posters -- whether veterans or newbies -- might feel intimidated (not by you, just in general), and by either side of the spectrum, especially with the kind of language that Earl alluded to and that I too thought I was hearing. Thanks for helping clarify it, though.

BTW -- out of curiosity, I perused Masq's Episode Index on this site and took a personal poll of how many eppies I've liked and disliked from every season. I'm deliberately using the "Either/Or" fallacy and ignoring ambiguous feelings on any episode for the purposes of this experiment. For seasons 1-3, I liked 45 episodes, disliked only 11. For the much-maligned S4, I liked 20 eps and disliked only 2! It's not until S5 that my enthusiasm began to wane (13-9); and S6, as expected, is the first season that came out overall negative for me (9-13). (Though I loved "Seeing Red.") Nevertheless, I've got 87 eps in the win column, and only 35 in the other. So even with a hardass like yours truly, that gives BtVS an astonishingly high .713 win percentage, good enough to easily take any MLB division as they stand.:)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Regarding Season 6 ratings -- shadowkat, 09:40:32 09/21/02 Sat

It's funny...but if you are mainly on the boards, you think that not many people liked Season 6. I was certain for a while that I was in the minority for being amongst the few who loved it. Because the truth is, while I watched the show since it premiered in 1997, I never took it that seriously and certainly didn't tape or write essays on it.
It wasn't until Season 6 - I got obsessed. I thought I was weird.

Then I got people emailing me and stating how they NEVER
watched buffy until Season 6. Season 6 got them hooked.
Then I read an article about Seeing Red and the writer pointed out that Season 6's ratings were higher than Season 5, by at least two ratings points. I think it's still on slayage if you want to check. The article even included a graph. So the show picked up audience members.

You have to remember something about online viewers - as in most things - people tend to speak up more when they dislike something or are upset than when they like it. It's just easier to be a critic, I guess. And some criticism is actually sort of cool, like the stuff above on Firefly. Personally I don't understand going on-line to whine about how awful a tv show is - I merely stop watching it whenever it bugs me that much. It's when it's great and wonderful, that I tend to go nuts over it. Although there were a few scenes this year I found myself being very critical of - and the only reason I was - was because I thought the show by and large was the best I'd seen in years and I'd raised my expectations a little too high. But even those scenes? Were better than most of the stuff I've seen on TV. That is saying something.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree with HH. That's it exactly -- shadowkat, 12:50:05 09/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yup...and also agree about... -- aliera, 15:02:35 09/20/02 Fri

it being a very very tolerant and usually congenial place to post and read and loiter. The archives however, make *very* interesting reading, kinda like looking back in your high school year book only much better!

[> I think my expectations were too high last year. -- Cactus Watcher, 14:22:24 09/18/02 Wed

Hence, it was almost impossible for last season to be much of a success in my eyes. This year, while I want to see new eps, I'm not as anxious about it and not expecting as much. Hopefully, all of us will be pleasantly surprised.

[> [> Mine also. -- mundusmundi, 14:38:11 09/18/02 Wed

And you know S6 was a letdown for most when not even a classic musical episode could save it. (Maybe that also raised the bar too high too early.) I'm in a forgiving mood, though. I've got the premiere circled on my calendar as a reminder, between a project I've due next week for one of my Lib. Science classes and the start of Fall quarter teaching at the local CC.

[> Season 7 -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:09:27 09/18/02 Wed

In my personal opinion: SEASON 7 IS GONNA RULE!

First, it looks like we're going to be having more Joss written episodes, and he has written some of my all time favorite Buffy eps (and lets not forget to look forward to this year's Emmy bid; a Joss episode like "Hush", "The Body", or "Once More With Feeling" designed to wow and amaze Emmy voters).

Second, I'm a Dawn fan, what can I say? I really like the girl and am gonna love seeing what happens with her. Plus, if I'm lucky, we'll get more Dawn/Spike friendship. Those two were brilliant in Season 5.

Third, I wasn't a person who hated Season Six. It didn't live up to the standards set by the last five seasons, but it was pretty good.

Fourth, the lines by Giles "The Coven is trying to find a way to extract her powers without - without killing her." "You must understand, there is no guarantee she'll be like she was". This appears to be setup for Willow being drastically changed by her experiences. (Also, as others have pointed out, Katrina and Warren probably won't be getting a lot of police attention; unsolved murders are the norm in Sunnydale).

Fifth, if the Scoobies do seem too forgiving of each other, it could very well be because, since they were all in the wrong, they might decide to call it even. Keep in mind, this is an "if".

Sixth, souled Spike has way more potential than lovelorn Spike of late Season 5 through Season 6.

Seven, if it is indeed the last season of Buffy, you can bet Joss and company will pull out all the stops to give it a grander and more epic scale.

Eight, rumors I've unavoidably seen while checking out this board have given me every indication that this season has SO much going for it.

[> [> Regarding Souled Spike (no spoilers): -- HonorH, 21:57:48 09/18/02 Wed

Totally agree, Finn, and you know why? It can't be "Angel Redux." Can't. No way. Why am I so sure? It's simple:

If unsouled Angel and unsouled Spike are nothing at all alike, what makes anyone think the souled versions will be remotely similar?

[> [> [> Re: Regarding Souled Spike (no spoilers): -- SableHart, 21:16:55 09/20/02 Fri

They may be nothing alike, personality-wise, but after receiving a soul, ergo a conscious, shouldn't Spike start feeling at least some of the same feelings of remorse and guilt? If he doesn't, then not only does that make him unlike Angel, but also a pretty loathsome character, IMO. But then again, I'm a fan secretly yearning for the return of the original, cocky, cockney, Spike.

SableHart

[> Not Really... -- Eric, 06:31:36 09/19/02 Thu

My hope is that the writers realize where they hosed up last season as well as where they kicked ass. I do know this: This is the LAST season of a show that is a cult phenomena and a legend in the TV industry. Everyone involved will do their damndest to make sure it ends with a bang. And if past performance(s) are any indication at all, it will do just that.

[> I don't see a trend. I don't see a trend. I don't see a trend... -- Darby (in a bathtub), 08:58:08 09/19/02 Thu

Only you guys would get this.

I hope.

[> [> One is tempted to post "LOL!" just to appear smart... -- Dead Soul, 09:27:10 09/19/02 Thu

[> [> You have nothing to fear but Fear, Itself, Darby. -- Arethusa, 08:18:58 09/20/02 Fri

The Scoobie Attacks (Buffy, Willow.. and Xander?) -- neaux, 08:37:10 09/19/02 Thu

The number of scoobies fluctuates each season, but there has always been the core three. Buffy, Willow and Xander.

Season 6, we saw Buffy try to kill all the scoobies (Willow, Xander and Dawn), and we saw Willow try to kill all the scoobies (Buffy, Xander, Giles, Anya.. heck the whole freakin world).

Well would it have made sense to have an episode where Xander decided to kill everyone as well?

I cant seem to think of an instance let alone an episode where this is tangible.

I assume the reason for this is to show Xander as the common man turned Hero. And why have Xander try to kill everyone when The common man turned villian season 6 theme was epitomized by Warren. right?

eh.. I dont know I'm just writing out my thoughts..and wondered if anyone knew on a particular point in season six where Xander went off on the gang. (I would say Xander going after Spike with an Axe is stretching it a bit).

any commments?? please.. you can use my insane thoughts for a jumping off point to something greater maybe? ^_^

[> Xander went all predatory in "The Pack" (S1); he was first. -- cjl, 08:39:51 09/19/02 Thu

[> [> I was thinking more along the lines of this past season -- neaux, 09:00:13 09/19/02 Thu

but yes I did think of that episode as well.. but dont recall him specifically trying to kill all the scoobies. I do remember a scene with Xander and Buffy, but not the whole gang.

[> Re: The Scoobie Attacks (Buffy, Willow.. and Xander?) -- shadowkat, 09:22:24 09/19/02 Thu

Well in Season 6 there was the whole OMWF thing. Xander did summon the demon and almost got Buffy killed. Granted he never paid for it. But Buffy
didn't really pay for attacking her friends in Normal Again either. (yeah, yeah - I know there's several people who have troubles with the whole OMWF - Xander summoning the demon and it never being resolved. Let's not go there again ;-) )

Also Xander stood Anya up at the wedding in Hell's Bells.
He stood by while Warren threatened and shot Buffy (not his fault, I would have stood there in shock as well particularly after the pummeling Warren gave him the last time he tried to stop him. But Xander blamed himself).

The theme with Xander in Season 6 was he was running away from himself. That was the point of the Dawn/Xander scene in Grave. Where she tells him to stop feeling sorry for himself and go back and fight. Be a man. But he doesn't.
Not until he finds out from Anya that Willow is on Kingman's Bluff. (Shot of Buffy/Dawn in open grave, Anya
pops in says something about Kingman's bluff, quick shot of Xander looking down, right back to Anya - if you blinked? you missed it. Which apparently several people did.)
That's when he finally overcomes the running and faces things.

Even in the ax scene with Spike - when Buff/Spike and Anya confront him - he can't deal and runs. Actually if you look back over last Season, there are a lot of scenes of Xander running or avoiding something. It's really not until Grave he faces things.

This weakness of Xander's is forshadowed in his Restless Dream and is resolved in Season 6.

Buffy's weakness is a tendency to fight things aside. Deny.
If Xander physically runs from things? Buffy is the Queen of Denial. She pulls it inside herself and denies it's truth. All Season long she is lying to herself, dealing with everything herself, not asking for help, being stalwart Buffy, matyr. Protecting her friends, her sister, even herself from what scares her. In Normal Again - she tries to kill her friends - because they are keeping her from escaping into herself. It's an interesting metaphor - she retreats inward, pulls deep inside herself - like we see in WOTW and the catanonia. Xander's running is more external - he physically does it while Buffy mentally retreats.

Willow's retreat is not to run away or to retreat inside herself. Willow retreats or hides by lashing out. She's a venter. She hides or retreats into substance abuse, work, or fantasy. Her big sin is instead of calmly talking things out, listening, she hides beneath the external magics - lashes out with them. Trys to be someone else.

So in summary:
1. Xander deals with his problems by running from them and avoid
responsiblity by leaving or ignoring the evidence. Doesn't exist, not a problem. If I ignore it will go away. If I leave it will disappear. (He is often the one in earlier seasons, School Hard and Goodbye Iowa come to mind, who suggests taking a vacation, hiding or leaving town.)
2. Buffy tries to deal by retreating inside herself. Not telling anyone. If she doesn't give voice to the problem it will go away. If she punches it or stakes it - it will go away.
3. Willow tries to deal by retreating into computers, magic, lovers. She often uses outside means. She also lashes out and vents. If she's upset? Everyone knows it.
She is the opposite of Buffy and Xander. So it appears on the surface she is dealing, but she's not. Instead she's throwing out distractions - making sure no one can see her or the problem.

The sins each commit have their roots in the way the three scoobs cope with problems. Unfortunately in a relationship with someone else these coping skills can have horrific results as we see in Entropy, Tabula Rasa, Seeing Red and Hell's Bells.

Hope that made sense. (No time to really check over the post since scrawling this off at work, which per usual is driving me nuts. ;-)) SK

[> [> Terrific analysis. -- HonorH, 10:14:32 09/19/02 Thu

Their defense mechanisms really caught up with them this year, didn't they? I'd noticed Willow's tendency to try and literally magic problems away before. Starting with her attempted "de-lusting" spell in "Lover's Walk" and going through S4's "Something Blue" and up through "Tabula Rasa," Willow's tried to use magic as a shortcut to working things through. It hasn't worked for her in any instance, except *very* temporarily at the end of "All the Way." Add to that a wide streak of passive aggressiveness and you've got all the materials necessary for her to turn truly frightening under the influence of dark magics.

[> [> [> Thanks and agree -- shadowkat, 10:31:16 09/19/02 Thu

I think Willow's coping skills turned the most frightening, because they tended to affect more than just herself.
It's sort of similar to throwing a boulder into a small
pond.

Unlike Willow's, Buffy's coping skills tend to hurt her the most. While they do affect people around her, the effect is limited to just those in real close proximity. (Willow breaks loose with magic and has a tendency to affect everyone in a 20 mile radius..) Buffy's inability to communicate her real feelings and expectations to Spike, blew up in her face, just as her inability to communicate her fears to the SG did. What would have happened if Buffy called Giles after Wrecked and asked for his help? They even consider it in Smashed but dismiss it.
I can see why she didn't. It would have been against her nature to call him back after he made a point of leaving.
Also Buffy isn't good at asking for help. Has to do it all herself (something I can relate to, believe me). But I can't help but wonder what would have happened if instead of puching Spike in Smashed when he wanted to discuss things (this is at the beginning of episode, before he realized he could hit her back), she had calmly discussed things. He may have never discovered he could hurt her. Or what would have happened if she talked to Giles in Tabula Rasa and told him what was happening with her?
Part of the reason he left, was she refused to talk to him, she just wanted him to handle things.

And Xander? What might have happened if Xander had sat Anya down and discussed his fears? Told her he was afraid of becoming like his father? Afraid of hurting her? Instead of just running away?

And finally Willow...what would have happened if instead of yelling at Giles in Flooded. Willow actually listened to him and asked for help, maybe guidance? What would have happened if instead of freaking in Villains. Willow took a moment and sat with her dead lover as Dawn did?

As they say, hindsite is 20/20. It's often not until we
make a mess of things, that we see what we should have done.
I'm sure next year the SG are going to thinking about just that.

SK

[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks and agree -- Cheryl, 15:46:44 09/19/02 Thu

"Also Buffy isn't good at asking for help. Has to do it all herself"

I agree about her not being good at asking for help, however, she does go to Spike quite often for help - to watch over Joyce and Dawn (numerous times), to help find Riley when he disappeared in the tunnels, to see if he knew anything about the demon in OMWF. There are probably other examples, but those are off the top of my head. Anyhoo, I just thought it was kind of interesting, once I started thinking about it, that it was Spike she felt most comfortable (not necessarily the right word) going to. And Spike goes to her for help - to fight Angelus & Dru, to hide from the Initiative, etc. It's a very interesting, complex relationship.

[> [> [> [> [> different types of problems -- meritaten, 18:25:37 09/19/02 Thu

Buffy's willingness to seek help from Spike is mostly limited to help in a fight or help protecting someone. Only once that I remember does she ask for help with an emotional or psychological problem. I am referring to her admission to Spike that she had been in heaven, not hell. ...and even here, I think she just had to let it out to someone.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: different types of problems -- shadowkat, 18:50:43 09/19/02 Thu

"Buffy's willingness to seek help from Spike is mostly limited to help in a fight or help protecting someone. Only once that I remember does she ask for help with an emotional or psychological problem."

I think you hit the nail on the head on why she goes to him and not the others for help. It actually is similar to why she often went to Angel. Spike doesn't ask questions.
He just helps. He doesn't pry into her emotions. Also she doesn't have to worry about him. It's ironically safe.

As she puts it to Giles in Spiral - "He's the only one strong enough outside of me"

I also think, and this is more a gut feeling, that Buffy looks at Spike the way you might look at a pet dog - say a doberman or rotteweiler, or if you prefer a pet leopard, you know it's dangerous, but you also know that it loves you and will do anything for you, and if you needed it to kill something - done. And hey, while it might bug you if someone killed it - having a pet killed isn't the same as having your sister, your brother or your best friend killed. (Well not to most people...at any rate. I know losing a pet can be quite devastating..but I think Buffy a) can't imagine Spike dying, she certainly couldn't kill him and b)can't imagine being as upset about it as she'd be
if it were Xander or Willow or Giles.) Let's face it, if you had a hell-god after you and you needed to protect mom and sis - who would you ask for help? Your best friend
who can fix a window? Or the neighborhood vampire who has a chip in his head and would lick your feet if you asked him too? If it were a hell-god? The vampire.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> *Snicker!* Spike as Buffy's puppy . . . -- HonorH, 19:30:44 09/19/02 Thu

I'm blaming *you* for the mental images I'm getting, s'kat. They're . . . interesting, to say the least.

"Heel, boy!"

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: different types of problems -- meritaten, 22:26:49 09/19/02 Thu

Buffy DID go to Angel with some of her emotional concerns. And he left. She was more guarded with Riley. And he left.

Wouldn't encourage one to open up, would it?

Buffy hasn't always gotten encouraging responses when she shares things. I hadn't thought about this before, but I'm thinking that she became more and more reluctant to share her emotions over time. I think Angel's turning started a chain of events where Buffy has become more and more reluctant to open up to people. Riley left because he didn't feel that she loved him. He felt that way, at least in part, because she limited what she confided in him and shared with him. There was a barrier there. He saw that as a lack of love. I always thought it was fear of being hurt. (I know that the B/R break up was more complex, but I see this as a part of the problem.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: different types of problems -- shadowkat, 06:37:22 09/20/02 Fri

You're right. She did go initially to Angel for emotional help, feeling he was her soul mate, etc. And he left. Then he took Faith's side against her. He did show up and comfort her when her mom died. But he wasn't there when she had to die nor did he come back or help in any way when she was brought back.

I think Buffy's fears go back further than Angel and Riley.
I know we've said it before, but it bears repeating. This girl has serious daddy issues. Way back in Nightmares - her first Nightmare is her father telling her he divorced Mom and left because of her. Then later in Helpless, Daddy stands her up for her Birthday, which apparently had been an annual thing. In Family - she tells Giles that her father didn't even call or consider helping them when her mother got sick.

All the guys she's gotten involved with romantically are considerably older than she is. And all have left. I think
she started shutting down when Angel left. Tried opening up again with Riley, but a combination of the Faith & Angel incidents made her shut down again. I rewatched
Who ARE You through Yoko Factor this past week and realized that although she is able to forgive and reconnect with him after Faith, she doesn't build up the courage to tell him about Angel until much later. When she finally does? She leaves out a few things. Things Xander tells him which causes him to freak and he leaves her again. They sort of reunite, but notice in Restless - he's off debriefing and her mom only JUST met Riley. Buffy is afraid to trust him entirely. Makes sense. If I was Buffy I wouldn't have trusted him entirely. Even time she comes close - she gets burned.

1. She trusts - finds out he's with the Initiative and the Initiative tries to kill her, she realizes this may not be his fault, supports him
2. She trusts - finds out he slept with Faith when Faith occupied her body and could not tell the difference. Jonathan gets her to forgive him.
3. She trusts - finds out he has a black and white view of demons and well, deep inside, there's a demon maybe in her, and her friends (Anya ex-demon) and of course Angel and then there's OZ. He risks his life to save Oz, she forgives.
4. She trusts - he finds out about Angel and leaves her.
She discovers he was under government control - forgives.
5. She trusts - but is struggling with what she is and is afraid to confide in Riley because well he still has troubles with the whole grey thing. Before she can get up the courage to tell him about dawn - she finds out he's still connected to the military, and then of course the vamp trulls and finally he does leave her, giving her a less than 24 hour ultimatium before he does.

What Buffy goes through with Riley isn't all that different than what she went through with Angel or with her father.

Abandonment issues, trust issues, plus the whole I have to go out and save the world on my own thing - can have it's toll on a girl. Got to give her credit for even attempting to have a relationship.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: different types of problems -- meritaten, 18:09:43 09/20/02 Fri

Yes, her dad did play a big role.

I've also been thinking about Spike. With him, Buffy could be in a relationship of sorts without having to make an emotional comittment. With him, she also tried to keep it secret, sparing her the potential public humiliation of being left. Of course, she was also embarassed by his unsouled status, but I think part of the secrecy was a defense mechanism. When Riley left, her friends blamed her. She hadn't shown Riley that she cared. She hadn't given him a chance to explain himself, etc. Not only has she been hurt, but the finger of blame has been pointed at her. She also felt responsible for her father abandoning her. She caused Angel to lose his soul. She made the mistake of trusting Parker. She failed to be a good girlfriend to Riley. Why let people see her fail again?

[> [> [> [> Regarding Willow's coping skills (or the lack thereof) -- HonorH, 17:15:10 09/19/02 Thu

I could understand her firing back in "Flooded." Giles began the conversation with "You are a very stupid girl," which doesn't encourage a lot of give and take. I could also understand what she did in "Villains." After all, one tends to be a little irrational when one's lover has just died in one's arms.

What I really fault Willow for? "All the Way." Instead of waiting for Tara to cool down and discuss why she was so upset about Willow's magic use, Willow just mind-wiped her to avoid having to change anything. That was Just Plain Wrong. Repeating that action in "Tabula Rasa" was all the worse, since she *knew* how Tara regarded having her neurons played with.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Regarding Willow's coping skills (or the lack thereof) -- shadowkat, 18:22:20 09/19/02 Thu

I think her behavior in All the Way and Tabula Rasa was symptomatic (sp?) of a coping pattern she had gotten into.
One Tara wisely sees and attempts to point out to her in Tabula Rasa ("you can't use magic to fix the world to be the way you want"). Actually I'd argue Tara saw it in Tough Love but Glory brainsucked her and the whole thing got forgotten.

I fault Giles partly for this. If he had handled Willow differently in Flooded? Who knows what would have happened. He should also have seen the problem way before Flooded. After all Willow has consistently used magic to handle problems as far back as Season 3 and possibly even Season 2.
I'm wondering if Giles wasn't just blind to it the way some parents are blind to the problems of their kids. I know of parents who had over-achievers and didn't realize the kid had a drug problem or was abusing some substance until it was too late.

Xander also catches this pattern with Willow - one he and Anya both comment on in Smashed. But Xander never takes it very seriously. He sees it like he'd see someone with a drinking problem. "She's off the wagon again." Except this is a wagon that can kill people - a realization that I think shocks Xander to his core.

What Willow did to Tara was horrible in my view and I'm amazed Tara was able to forgive her as easily as she did.
But I think Tara like most people involved with an addict,
wanted desperately to blame the addiction not Willow.
I feel for Tara, she loved Willow, Willow was in many ways as much her world as Tara was Willow's. But Tara didn't know how to help the insecure girl at Willow's core - the one who needed magic to feel important. Or Tara to feel important. Willow's main problem? Was she couldn't feel important on her own - that's what distinquishes her from Xander - who had found a way to feel important without supernatural abilities. Until Willow feels important for just being as Jonathan and Xander put it "Just Willow", I think she'll always have problems with magic and anything else that comes her way. Even if Tara had lived - I think Willow's magic would have eventually gotten between them again and caused Tara to leave. Because as Willow puts it in Two-to-Go = without magic or Tara, Willow felt like a mousey nothing.

Sort of reminds me of something a teacher told me once:
"you can't get your self-worth or value from external things, ie. people, drugs, good grades - you have to get it from within yourself." I think Willow has yet to learn that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Regarding Willow's coping skills (or the lack thereof) -- DEN, 17:23:22 09/20/02 Fri

Let's not forget either that Willow has consistently been encouraged to use magic in emergencies by both Buffy and Giles. I remember one incident from S4 when Buffy says something like "Will, hack into the Initiative's computer. If that doesn't work, use a spell." They use her, praise her, criticize her--and all of it's situational, based on the Scoobies' needs of the moment. I've often compared her to a teenaged fighter pilot, unusually skilled at shooting down enemy planes and otherwise immature, who gets sent out again and again until he breaks.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Regarding Willow's coping skills (or the lack thereof) -- shadowkat, 19:49:06 09/20/02 Fri

Good points.

I rewatched Primeval tonight and once again Willow is the one doing the powerful spell. A spell Giles clearly states only an adept and experienced witch can handle - he can't do it, hence the reason they need to join. Giles also states how deeply dangerous this spell is. Yet he lets an young "amateur" witch with no true training do it??
Earlier in Becoming Part I - Giles allows Willow to do the curse spell - another dangerous spell. And in Choices - once again puts Willow in danger. By the time we hit Season 5, Giles can no longer stop Willow from doing those spells.
He just sort of comments on them.

I agree, I think they treated her as a "protegee" type fighter pilot. One of the many things I'm looking forward to next season is seeing how Giles handles what happened with Willow and his own responsibility for it. I think he already sees his responsibility/blindness here - it's why he came back at the end of Two-to-Go and provided her with the whammy and for the first time since Season 1 and possibly 2, actually showed us he can work serious magic.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Regarding Willow's coping skills (or the lack thereof) -- DEN, 21:29:12 09/20/02 Fri

Thanks, 'kat--I'm a military historian,and tend to view the show from that perspective, as having much in common with a war movie.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Regarding Willow's coping skills (or the lack thereof) -- DEN, 21:39:05 09/20/02 Fri

And in a war-movie context Willow's not even a protegee, who learns the ropes from an experienced hand, then steps into his shoes (a standard plot device of the genre). She's just pitchforked out there, the FNG with two options. It's the war-movie matrix that led me in an earlier posting to suggest that by the end of s6, and probably as early as Smashed/Wrecked, Willow has the proverbial thousand-yard stare and is correspondingly not fully responsible for her actions. She should have been pulled off ops much earlier and sent on a nice long R&R to Paris or London--with Tara in the next seat.

[> [> [> [> [> Willow and Giles -- Malandanza, 13:44:28 09/20/02 Fri

"I could understand her firing back in "Flooded." Giles began the conversation with "You are a very stupid girl," which doesn't encourage a lot of give and take."

There was some talk about Fred's Lolita "act" in another thread -- I don't see Fred as acting -- she was likely pretty sheltered (more like Season One Willow than Season One Darla playing at being a schoolgirl) before Pylea and all those years only reinforced her insecurities. Certainly, in Billy I don't think there was anything to Wesley's rants -- afterwards we see a very demurely dressed Fred talking to Wesley about the incident.

However, I do think that Willow frequently practices her Lolita act -- lisping and generally being too cute. The conversation before Giles' "stupid girl" remark was classic Willow:

WILLOW: Hey Giles.

He closes the door. Looking a bit grim.

WILLOW (cont'd): You have a good talk with Buffy?

GILES: Yes, now that she's back.

WILLOW: Isn't it awesome?

GILES: Mmm. Tell me about this spell you performed.

WILLOW: (suddenly excited) Okay. First of all - so scary. Like, the Blair Witch would have had to watch like this.(covers eyes) And this giant snake came out my mouth and then there was all this energy crackling and then this pack of demons interrupted but I totally kept it together and the next thing you know ... Buffy.

This whole scene felt like Willow trying out her Lolita act on Giles to me. I can easily imagine Giles simmering with rage as she plays the ingenue. Willow knew that Giles would disapprove (hence his exclusion and their code of silence the very day Giles left) yet she says "Isn't it awesome?" (of course, she really meant "Look at how awesome I am!"). Then there's the pantomime and the "next thing you know... Buffy" theatrics. No mention of sacrifices or Buffy being brought back six-feet under -- because, you know, she "totally kept it together." She's so responsible.

I agree with shadowkat about Giles partly blaming himself for not stopping Willow or seeing her reckless use of magic (and that he really did see it, but just didn't want to acknowlege -- like a parent of a drug-using child). Part of his anger may have been a result of him blaming himself -- but the greater part of it was warranted. Willow, by her actions, was still lying to Giles. This is one of the scenes from Season Six that hooked me (the later part of the season was a disappointment).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I totally agree. -- HonorH, 19:17:34 09/20/02 Fri

I'm not saying she didn't deserve him going all clipped-voice and Ripper-y on her. I definitely think she was playing on her cuteness, hoping to mitigate Giles' disapproval. I also think that no matter how Giles had put things, she most likely would *not* have listened. As far as she was concerned, Buffy being back settled the argument. Still gotta say, though, that as conversation-openers, that wasn't the best.

[> [> [> Re: Terrific analysis. -- leslie, 12:18:27 09/19/02 Thu

"Starting with her attempted "de-lusting" spell in "Lover's Walk" and going through S4's "Something Blue" and up through "Tabula Rasa," Willow's tried to use magic as a shortcut to working things through."

Huh. Never noticed it before, but interesting that all of Willow's attempts to use magic to overcome some problem in *her* love life always end up involving Spike trouble.

[> [> [> [> Re: Terrific analysis. -- shadowkat, 18:40:50 09/19/02 Thu

"Huh. Never noticed it before, but interesting that all of Willow's attempts to use magic to overcome some problem in *her* love life always end up involving Spike trouble."

And here I was trying so hard not to turn this into a Spike post. ;-)

The corollary or parallel between Willow and Spike continues to fascinate me. I'm convinced the show is deliberately paralleling their arcs, even interlacing them and has been doing it since Season 2. (Although it is possible I'm reading more into it then the writers intend, I think we all do that at times, it's inevitable in literary or media analysis.) Both characters clearly define themselves through the love of a woman or man as the case may be. I think it was alcibades or Aerthusa below who mentioned Angel defined himself by family, Spike by a woman. And I think in your essay, leslie, on Warriors, you mentioned how Spike was the one vampire who truly couldn't stand not having a mate. Willow is almost the same way. It's like they get their self-worth from the mate or the relationship.

Spike and Willow in the Initiative have a wonderful scene that deals with two difficult issues : impotence and feeling second best. Spike of all the people in Willow's life, actually reassures her the most. It's an incredibly ironic scene, since Spike well tried to kill and rape her first (or just kill depending on how you read it, so do not want to have THAT debate again, lol!)In it, they oddly begin to bond. He tells her that she isn't second best.
And she tells him that he is still scarey, still the potent vampire. What is telling in the scene is how important others perceptions of them are to them. Both get value from what others think.

Also Spike like Willow is a horrible drunken pathetic mess when he loses Dru. He comes to Willow for a love spell. Willow is about to do a delust spell in Lover's Walk.

In Something Blue - it's no coincidence that Spike realizes Willow is hanging by a thread. Like Willow, Spike also can't handle being dumped.

Both reacte to the rejection of their significant others in Season 6 in similar fashions. And how much do you want to bet that if Spike had been holding Buffy when she was shot - that Warren would be one dead duck chip or no chip? Willow mind-rapes Tara to get her to stay with her. Spike attempts to rape Buffy. Both are horrible acts. (Although the one with Tara was far easier to watch...)Both attempt force.

And in Tabula Rasa - we have Tara and Willow breaking as Spike and Buffy come together. Also the two couples who are thrown together are those two.

Tara and Buffy have found a way to feel important outside a relationship. Spike and Willow have not - they both seem to need to be loving someone in order to feel worthwhile. I wonder if this has something to with their own geeky, somewhat scholarly pasts. Both were romantics, who yearned for love from people who could not return it. Perhaps Willow's healing started with Xander on the bluff. (Her first love and first rejection.) Wonder what they will do
with Spike?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Terrific analysis. -- leslie, 10:29:56 09/20/02 Fri

But I think it's also significant (and I think this *must* be intended by the writers) that Willow's spells virtually conjure Spike and his problematicness (oh look, I invented a new word). Lover's Walk is the most literal: do delusting spell-->here's Spike at his most out-of-control we've ever seen him. Something Blue: do will-be-done spell-->Spike suddenly has to be one of the gang/family because he's (snicker) engaged to Buffy. Tabula Rasa: do amnesia spell--> the whole gang is attacked by loan sharks after Spike. Her spells tend to be completely ineffective as regards *her* problems, but weirdly effective on him. Which, hmm, brings up an interesting point regarding the resouling, since essentially both of them are "resouled" simultaneously (something I think Xander, for one, certainly didn't intend!).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Terrific analysis. -- shadowkat, 11:20:27 09/20/02 Fri

"Which, hmm, brings up an interesting point regarding the resouling, since essentially both of them are "resouled" simultaneously (something I think Xander, for one, certainly didn't intend!)."

Didn't think of that, but you may be right (assuming again we aren't reading too much into this). What strikes me as interesting in the Villains Through Grave arc is how Willow and Spike are simultaneously stripped of color. Both are black and White. Prior to these Villains they had more color. Then when they get "re-souled" Spike glows a yellowish light from within and Willow's blackness fades away leaving her a red-head again.

It will be telling to see if the writers continue to interlace the characters next year or even have a scene between the two.

In Lover's Walk - we have Spike wanting the spell. Willow
not. Spike out of control. Willow in control. But did Willow actually do any magic in this epsiode? I don't think so. I think it was more that both Spike and Willow wanted a spell to make them feel better. Spike to get Dru back. Willow to stop feeling the way she did. So not sure you can say Willow's magic had an effect on Spike - so much as alcohol and loss did, he was also out of control way before he discovered Willow.

The other two examples? Something Blue and TR I think do work however. It's almost as if Willow's problems and Spike's converge in TR to rain havok down on them. The interior relationship problem and the exterior demon one. Just as Tara and Buffy's problems converged in Family to rain havok down on them. Actually Tabula Rasa and Family are interesting companion pieces, now that I think of it.

In Family - Tara does a spell to hide her demon side, in order to stay with Willow - she's afraid Willow will reject her otherwise. The spell makes everyone blind to demons. So when the demons arrive hunting Buffy - they almost succeed until Tara lifts the spell. Spike fights alongside Buffy, but she's blind to his assistance. Willow automatically forgives Tara for her mistake.

In Tabula Rasa - Willow does a spell to erase Buffy and Tara's memories of her misdeeds, in order to maintain her friendship and relationships. The spell makes everyone within proximity of Willow's crystal lose their memories.Vampires hunting Spike burst in and the gang is caught unawares b/c have no memory of fighting vampires. Spike helps Buffy, but they have problems when she realizes he's a vampire not human. He claims he's noble. She lets him up and they fight side by side. Until Willow's crystal breaks and spell is broken. Tara leaves Willow as a result. (In Tara's defense, Willow had done a similar spell two episodes before.)

Not sure what all this means to the larger picture but it is an interesting parallel I hadn't noticed.

And yep - agree, I doubt anyone expected or intended Spike
to get a soul (except possibly Spike .)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Terrific analysis. -- leslie, 12:26:08 09/20/02 Fri

"In Lover's Walk - we have Spike wanting the spell. Willow
not. Spike out of control. Willow in control. But did Willow actually do any magic in this epsiode? I don't think so."

She was in mid-spell when Spike appeared--mixing the ingredients, not yet saying the charm--so it really seems to me that instead of the result she was anticipating as the completion of the spell, she got Spike instead. One rather wonders what would have happened if she had gotten any further in that spell she intended for Oz and Veruca.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, Spike got zapped in "Wild at Heart"! -- HonorH, 17:08:48 09/20/02 Fri

Not sure if that's a convergence or what, but he did get zapped right at the beginning of that episode. Then Willow got stabbed right through the heart. Maybe Spike's kinda Willow's id. They both kinda cut loose around the same time, and then they got their superegos reinstated again at the same time. Interesting pair.

[> [> Thanks SKat!! You always clear things up for me!! XD -- neaux, 10:38:19 09/19/02 Thu

[> [> So instead of "oh, grow up..." -- Humanitas, 20:02:26 09/19/02 Thu

Perhaps the real theme for the season is "you can run, but you cannot hide."

[> [> Re: The Scoobie Attacks - Buffy..........Thanks -- wiscoboy, 16:19:47 09/21/02 Sat

Thanks Kat for the 1st analysis that I've read of Buffy's actions within Normal Again that makes sense. I now understand the underlying premise for the ep(which I never before realized and obviously after reading most of the nonsense others were writing after the ep aired, most others did not either.)
Thanks again.

[> Re: The Scoobie Attacks (Buffy, Willow.. and Xander?) -- luvthistle1, 12:46:12 09/19/02 Thu

Well, if you think about the common man kill someone everyday. so, although Xander is suppose to represents the common man, i do not think that exclude him from becoming the little bad in the future. I do not remember Xander going off on any of the scoobies in season 6. but if you analysis Xander action from pass season you will see that he have potential.

[> Re: Slightly OT: Buffy vs. the Scoobies, round 1 -- Just George, 13:31:58 09/19/02 Thu

Buffy has an interesting history with her friends and lovers. She has been hit by / has hit just about every one of them. These are not just hits in training, but in anger. It seems that you canít really be close to Buffy unless youíve gone one on one with her at some time:

Xander: traded blows when he was a were-hyena, was attacked by crazy-Buffy
Willow: traded blows when she was dark-Willow, was attacked by crazy-Buffy
Dawn: was attacked by crazy-Buffy
Giles: traded blows when he was a demon
Oz: traded blows when he was a were-wolf
Faith: traded blows over Ms. Post before Faith went over to the dark side
Angel: traded blows when he was Angelus and over Faith
Spike: traded blows lots of times!
Riley: traded blows outside B&W�s dorm room when he was a masked commando

Cordelia and Tara seem like the exceptions. I donít remember Buffy ever having to fight them.

This is one of the reasons I think that Buffy will be able to get over fighting with Willow in Two To Go. She shakes off fights. I think she takes words more seriously than blows. If Buffy held a grudge against everyone who had ever attacked her, she wouldnít have anyone to hang around with anymore.

-JG

[> [> And let's not forget: -- HonorH, 23:47:14 09/19/02 Thu

Buffy punched Giles in "Passion," Angel in "Amends," and slapped Dawn in "Forever." In moments of extremely high emotion, she tends to react physically rather than verbally.

[> [> I don't think she's ever hit Anya, either -- Wizardman, 21:30:20 09/20/02 Fri

Coming out of the Buffy closet -- Apophis, 20:49:11 09/19/02 Thu

I am a closeted Buffy fan. There, I said it.
Why am I saying it, you ask? Well, here we go:
Today, in my Science Fiction and Fantasy class (isn't college great?), BtVS came up. We were discussing feminist fantasy and Dracula's effect on his female victims came up. This lead to Buffy, as the teacher (issuing the standard disclaimer of "I was only watching it because my friend made me and sometimes I like something stupid") brought up BtVS's iconoclastic take on the sexuality of vampires. She used Spike as an example, as he had no overpowering effect over his girlfriends (Harmony and Druscilla) and was, in fact, created by a woman in the first place (which I pointed out!). Throughout this discussion, I was sweating bullets. Why? Because this is the closest I've gotten to publicly acknowledging my love for the show.
The question I pose is Why? Why do I find it so hard to admit to others (sans the umbrella of a mythological pseudonym) that I watch Buffy?
Perhaps this is why: Where I come from, BtVS is seen as a "chick show." Since it originated on the WB (which spawned Dawson's Creek) and features a female lead, it is assumed to be a soap opera with exsanguination, trotting out vacuous yet pretty males and syurupy romance to satiate teeny bopper girls' desire for vicarious thrills. It can't possibly be anything deeper than that (as evidenced by my teacher's disclaimer). Since I can't afford any more strikes against my masculinity (I'm quiet, I read a lot, I don't play sports, I've never had a date, I sometimes hold my wrists loosely, etc.), I, much like Peter (right?), deny my favorite show thrice before the cock crows. If I "come out" and admit that I'm a fan, I face ridicule.
Recently, this has become something of a dilema for me. I realize that it's time for me to grow up and do as I please, the opinions of my peers be damned. I also have a roommate now (and a great bloody prep of a roommate at that). If I give in to my fears about him knowing my viewing habits, I won't get to see my favorite shows (Angel falls into this as well). So, come Tuesday, I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and do my thing.
Obviously, I know that my fears are ridiculous and I'm blowing things out of proportion, but no one ever said fear had to make sense. I don't think I'll have the same problem with Firefly, since it's a "manly" sci-fi show. I'd like to know if anyone out there has faced a similar problem. My guess is no, as I come from a small, bigoted town and have a tendency to go hysterical for no reason, but still, I'd like to see. Thank you for indulging my neuroses.
-Apophis, serpent of chaos and a sad, sad little man

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- celticross, 21:43:25 09/19/02 Thu

Oh, Apophis, you're not alone, believe me. The college definitions of cool may not be as rigid as high school *shudders at the memories* but they certainly exist. And BtVS, unforunately, has a bad rep with the high minded elites (it's just a teen show) and with those who seek slightly lower-brow entertainment (it's too weird). My own roommate falls into that latter catagory. I know the Lord of the Rings poster over my bed's already got her worried about my coolness quotient, but I watch Buffy too? Might be more than the poor girl can take. Maybe we should introduce our roommates to each other, Apophis...they'd probably get along beautifully. :)

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- meritaten, 22:13:11 09/19/02 Thu

I'm trying to think of some clever, yet comforting response. Unfortunately, I'm not that great with words. Best I can do is say that I understand your fears.

I think it is harder for me to acknowledge my fondness for Stargate than for Buffy. As an archaeologist, I am a bit ashamed of myself for watching a show whose premise is that aliens designed the pyramids. Kind of undermines my credibility. However, I just recently admitted to a friend and fellow archaeologist that I watched this show. I was surprised that she admitted to enjoying the movie, and having watched the TV series for a while. She even praised the writers for their research into Egyptian culture. She noted that they had done a commendable job of portraying the culture and language within the context of the story. I was shocked.

As for Buffy, I think many Buffy fans were originally put off by the show. I know that I was. The fact is that many people who felt this way have changed their mind after giving the show a chance. About half of my friends are Buffy watchers, to varying degrees. Some of my other friends think we're nuts. However, there are enough of us out there who appreciate the quality and depth of the show that a reasonable person would have to ackowledge that there is something of worth in the show.

When I get the raised eyebrow response to a Buffy comment, I just admit that I once thought it was silly - then I tried watching it and had to change my mind.

Buffy has a fairly strong following among college and grad students. You might put out some feelers and see if there aren't others who share your affection for the show. When I returned to school a few years ago, I was surprised at how many of my classmates were also fans.

BTW, it sounds as though your professor was a bit too defensive. Perhaps she is in her own Buffy closet?

BTW2, one of my classmates who LOVES Buffy is male. It doesn't seem to effect perceptions of his masculinity.

Hope you resolve your dilemma. I understand your uncertainty. If it is any consolation, resolution of this kind of dilemma is one of the few things that does get easier with age!

[> I know exactly where you're coming from. -- HonorH, 23:19:26 09/19/02 Thu

My mother practically called in an exorcist when she found out I liked the show. Fortunately, my father's somewhat more sensible (he understands the allure of genre), but it's still not something we exactly talk about.

Part of it *is* the title. People snicker at it. "But it's a great show!" you protest, and they still look at you . . . well, like you just admitted to liking "Xena: Warrior Princess." Only moreso.

It's even harder if you're a Christian. Horror, after all, isn't a "Christian" genre (?!), and they've heard such terrible things about the show! "But it's terrific writing! And the sex really isn't any worse than any other TV show--hey, what do you watch? And why is a lesbian relationship any worse than any other non-marital sexual relationship out there on TV? You'd sooner have had Willow continue fornicating with Oz? And there are themes of unconditional love, and consequences to actions (again, what shows do you watch?), and redemption, and hey, they played the Prayer of St. Francis during the finale!"

Okay, so I don't go off quite like that, but I do feel defensive. Fortunately, not all Christian groups are like the Parent's Television Tribunal or whatever. Christianity Today (which had remarkably sane views on Harry Potter as well) just had an article titled, "Don't Let Your Kids Watch Buffy (but record it and watch it later yourself)". A very good article, too. I emailed the author to thank him. Also, The Door Magazine, a satire magazine by and for Christians, just named Buffy its "Theologian of the Year." And they weren't being sarcastic! I found a copy at Borders and really quite enjoyed the article.

Anyway, end digression, if it was one. I'm hoping things are changing.

[> [> Explaining Buffy to fellow Christians -- Scroll, 08:34:48 09/20/02 Fri

It's even harder if you're a Christian. Horror, after all, isn't a "Christian" genre (?!), and they've heard such terrible things about the show!

You are so right, HH. In fact, any involvement in a fandom is pretty much frowned upon, at least in my experience. I'm not really sure why, except that people think getting really "into" a secular sci-fi or fantasy show will muddle your Christian beliefs. (And maybe it does, to some extent. I find my views on homosexuality aren't as clear-cut as they used to be.) As much as I love Buffy and Angel, I have to admit I'll never bother trying to convince my pastor or my parents to watch it with me. Which is a real pity, because Buffy raises so many issues I wish they would try to address or answer.

I read that "Don't Let Your Kids Watch Buffy" article, and greatly appreciated that the columnist admitted to liking Buffy! Most of those Christian writers don't, just say, "oh, had to watch it to review it"...

Apophis, I'm afraid I can't know what it's like for you to be in the closet in a college/university setting. One of my favourite profs is an avid fan and uses Buffy examples in class all the time. Another prof is an Angel fan, though she is more apologetic about bringing up TV shows in class. However, I do know what it's like to be ridiculed amongst my peers (especially in church) because they don't usually bother looking for subtext. For them, the text is all there is... Sad, huh?

[> [> [> Re: Explaining Buffy to fellow Christians -- meritaten, 15:40:38 09/20/02 Fri

I have to admit that I hide my Buffy adiction from my mother. ...but I have finally come out of my star trek closet!

I was raised in a very conservative Christian home. ...And my mother, especially, is very closed-minded. I think she still worries about my soul - my pierced ears might just enslave me to Satan. Mom, to her credit, has almost come to terms with my trekkie status. My sister and I can now actually exchange Trek themed Christmas gifts at our parent's house. In high school and even college, we had to hide anything TRek. Of course, her acceptance is really based on a loss of power over adult offspring, but nevertheless, the topic can be spoken of.

OK, My mother is an extreme case (in oh, so many ways....). When it come to Buffy however, things get truly uncomfortable. Demons can be friends. Witches can be good. THe "good guys" are casting spells. The show takes Christian ideas and twists them around to mean different things. I understand why Christians are concerned about the show. Doesn't mean I agree, but I do understand. I must confess that, if I had children, I wouldn't allow them to watch it until I was sure that they were ready to differentiate between evil as depicted on the show and the evil they learned about in the context of religion.

I am very guarded about mentioning Buffy to Christians. Of course, it varies by person, but many feel that watching something that blurs the lines between "good" and "evil" is threatening to the ideals of their faith. I understand that there is a grey area and that the show is really exploring the grey. However, sometimes people are worried that not everyone will get that (and many don't get it).

I tend to be guarded about talking about Buffy in certain company because
1. It isn't worth upseting people. It is unlikely that I'm going to change their mind if their objections are religious or moral.
2. Out of respect for their convictions. If someone has moral qualms about the show, I'm not going to try to force it on them.

I thnk Buffy is fine for adults, but there can be thoughtful arguments made that it isn't for all audiences.

Unfortunately, many people, out of fear or concern, judge me for watching the show. Their loss. I have a deep belief in God, but I know that my convictions won't be disolved by a considering the grey areas. When it comes down to basics the debate over the show comes down to the debate over the discussion of grey areas. Some people don't handle metaphor well.

[> [> [> [> Totally understand you =) -- Scroll, 07:56:42 09/21/02 Sat

[> [> No, kidding.......Link to Christianity Today article -- Rufus, 16:20:06 09/20/02 Fri

My parents are church goers and my Mom finds my attachment to BTVS a little hard to understand. She only see's that there is the use of "Satanic"(her words)magic used....and don't even get her started on her thoughts about a lesbian relationship being allowed to exist on TV (where impressionable children can see it). The article you are talking about is over at my site....

Christianity Today, Week of September 16

I'm not one of the more educated members on the board so some of the talk goes a bit beyond what I know. Doesn't mean I can't take the time to look it up though..;)

[> Worse comes to worse...use the "STFU! Buffy's Hot!" angle. -- Harry Parachute, 23:45:47 09/19/02 Thu

You go to college? Come from a small town? Hell, just say you watch it for the T&A and then got sucked in. Screw it, make a drinkin' game out of it. Y'see SMG's bra-strap, y'swig.

That's how I lured my buddies into watching it. Works out fine. Most of them are fans now.

[> [> Harry's right! -- CW, 07:17:01 09/20/02 Fri

Part of college is learning how to make your voice heard in a devious manner. It sounds like Apophis' instructor might be a closet fan and doesn't want to admit it to her peers. Learn to slip not so subtle hints into your parts of the class discussions. When it's your turn to speak in class(and, of course, only when it makes sense!) say things like, "Well, a lot of people fail to understand the philosphical underpinnings of the show, but in this case I think an example from Buffy the Vampire Slayer fits what we're talking about..." Prepare these zingers ahead of time. It's easier than it seems. After a few of those, if your instructor isn't impressed with you and isn't thinking about changing her tune in public about BtVS, she probably isn't worth listening to herself.

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- Eric, 04:58:44 09/20/02 Fri

Don't sweat it. I mean if people are going to base their opinion of you on your TV viewing habits - especially on shows they've never seen - they're not really worth hanging with. Its not like your telling people your a commie or a republican. You can base some character assumptions on those. BtVS has a cast of beautiful people that can act and writers that can write. It wouldn't have lasted 7 seasons otherwise. Star Trek TOS only lasted 3, Allie MacBeal 4, and even Dark Angel 3.

[> [> 7th Heaven and Buffy? which one's cooler? -- neaux, 07:32:34 09/20/02 Fri

Hey.. I find it Ironic that Buffy is the #1 Nastiest Show according to the Parental No-No Board and is in its 7th Season, and 7th Heaven is starting its 7th Season this year too.
Both with great ratings for their fellow networks UPN and WB. Just shows ya its Cool to be Down with the Devil and Down with the G-O-D.

But would you rather be an out of the closet Buffy Fan or an out of the closet 7th Heaven fan?

[> [> [> Re: 7th Heaven and Buffy? which one's cooler? -- Ronia, 09:55:15 09/20/02 Fri

Funny you should ask.....
I have spent years hearing all about how I should watch seventh heaven, and about what a bad, bad show buffy is.....but I did watch, and funny thing is..my christian sensibilities were more offended by seventh heaven. I was pretty vocal about my observations much to the disbelief of my church peers who put their fingers in their ears and said "la la la"....so this last season, when the show slapped biblical literalists in the face..I was watching..with a huge and inapropriate smile..I even stood up and shouted "HA! I knew it!" then, I took the opportunity to rub it in every chance I got...[giggles madly, while making a touchdown for the buffster and doing the chicken dance..spikes her vcr......]

[> [> [> [> LOL poor poor vcr. -- neaux, 10:17:28 09/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: 7th Heaven and Buffy? which one's cooler? -- Eric, 14:08:40 09/20/02 Fri

I've never seen an episode of 7H and as a C.S Lewis and J.R.R Tolkein fan I kinda hope it would be good. Nobody has had the balls to do a Christian show on mainstream TV until recently. This wasn't because of some bizarre PC rule but the opposite. The money grubbin' TV execs of yore decided the best way to keep getting paid was to avoid religious controversy as much as possible. Much is made about the seperate beds in TV sitcoms but nobody talks about when Lucy and Ricky went to church. Hell the first 20 years of TV pretty much wrote off political controversy except in the news.

In a way that mentality is still with us. The storylines of Buffy are fraught with religious implications (Powers That Be, Crucifixes, Magic, Gods, Witchcraft, etc.). And the writers have deftly side stepped almost every one. It should be no surprise that other shows designed to confront them written by lesser talents would screw it up.

I did see an episode of series about angels and found it incredibly insipid. One bit of acting was so bad if I'd been directing I'd have fired the actor on the spot. If SMG was there she'd have kicked his ass for the good of the profession.

[> [> [> [> Re: 7th Heaven and Buffy? which one's cooler? -- meritaten, 18:30:38 09/20/02 Fri

I agree. 7th Heaven is supposed to be reflecting Christian (or at least religious) values. Buffy makes no such pretentions. While one of the 7th Heaven girls claims to be planning to become a minister, she shamelessly cheats on her boyfriend. The show essentially ignores the morality and consequences of this action. Buffy examines the consequences of actions. I would consider neither of the shows to be Christian. 7th isn't even a very good show. Buffy, however, is extremely well written and, among other things, examines the consequences of actions.

[> If you think they can handle our deepness, send them here! -- Masq, 07:03:13 09/20/02 Fri

Make up some little business cards with www.atpobtvs.com on them. Trot them out at appropriate intervals. Tell people it's the most philosophical show on television!

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- OnM, 07:13:15 09/20/02 Fri

Part of the problem may be due to not only the 'image' the show projects on the part of the general public that doesn't regularly view it, but also on the image of genre 'fandom' in general.

Most people who aren't members of a fan community consider individuals who get into a hobby or a given piece of 'commercial art' to be at least slightly wacko. They will point to the folks who attend conventions and dress 'weirdly', or form long lines outside movie theaters on the opening day of the latest genre franchise flick. (Aliens, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. etc.)

Is this a form of unfair discrimination? Yes, but it's as understandable as any other form of discrimination, so it shouldn't really be a surprise when it occurs.

My approach is to discriminate in return as to who I reveal my Buffy obsession to. If I think that the individual in question is clearly doing to diss me for it, I simply never mention it. Why make grief for yourself? (Cast not ye pearls, etc.)

In other instances, such as the one you describe with your professor, that seems to me like a clear opportunity to attempt a connection.

Possible scenario:

Apophis: Excuse me. I was wondering, do you really think that Buffy is a stupid show?

Professor: Well, maybe not stupid, but, I mean... vampires, come on! It's a fantasy show, there isn't any 'science' in that kind of SF.

A: So you've never watched it regularly?

P: No, just once in a while.

A: And I suppose you've never checked out any of the internet based scholarly research groups that do critical analysis on the layers of deeper meaning and pointed social commentary that they see concealed beneath the show's quote-'lightweight' surface presentation? Like slayage.tv, or atpobtvs.com?

P: I've heard that there are people who see subtext in the show, but I have to admit that possibility seems unlikely to me.

A: But then, most people probably didn't take Shakespeare seriously when he was first presenting his plays for the elite and the rabble alike, often within the same audience. His fame came later when people began to examine the subtext. There are people who feel that Buffy will be regarded the same way with the passage of time.

P: (chuckling) Uh-huh. Interesting.

A: Tell you what. I'm going to put a few things together, and give it to you to look over. Copys of philosphical discussions about the show, web addresses for interesting Buffy sites, etc. Peruse them at your leisure. Then see what you think. How about that?

P: Scholarly discussions, eh? No 'Spike is so hot!' sorta thing?

A: (realizing big clue has just been dropped) Hummm, no, that's the point, which is what the mass audience misses. The silly title of the show is meant ironically, and that just the starting point. I'll get back to you next week with the excerpts I'm talking about. I genuinely think you'll find them interesting and insightful.

P: Well, no promises, I'm really pressed for time these days, but I'll look at what you have.

Apophis departs, having planted the seed of subversion.

P: (thinking to self) Nice fellow. Little wacko, but hey. Aren't we all.

Apophis seeks out and copies several selections of most excellent essayage from slayage.tv and ATPo archives. Takes care not to make subject matter either too abstreuse or conventionally fan-like. Avoids mention of cats or chocolate, being aware that conversion must take place before elevating new member of church to higher aspects of Buffy theology. Presents professor with materials, including copy of season 2 DVD's.

The rest is history.

:-)

[> [> Use snobbery to fight snobbery. -- Arethusa, 08:12:13 09/20/02 Fri

[I would only use this method with equal, not my professors. ;)]

Snob: You watch that kids' show with vampires and a blond bimbo?

Me: Of course. I know many people are unable to see beyond the trapping of genre*, but I enjoy decontructing the use of metaphor and identifying the philosophical underpinning imbedded by its creator, Joss Wedon. Did you know he graduated from an Ivy League university? Surely you have heard of the symposium being held in England this fall to discuss the scholarly aspects of the show. So, when you saw the show you didn't even notice the use of symbolism, allegory, literary allusion and metaphor? (Incredulous, slightly smug smile.)

*must use French accent here

[> [> [> Speaking of snobbery . . . -- d'Herblay, 10:49:40 09/20/02 Fri

. . . Wesleyan is not an Ivy League university.

Anyway, I'm not sure how far that argument will take you. Conan O'Brien graduated from an Ivy League university. Brian De Palma graduated from an Ivy League university. Sha Na Na graduated from an Ivy League university. George W. Bush graduated from an Ivy League university.

[> [> [> [> Really? Sha Na Na? Which one? -- dream of the consortium, 11:04:48 09/20/02 Fri

I'm guessing Bowzer went to Columbia?

[> [> [> [> [> Roar Lions Roar! -- d'Herblay, 11:13:04 09/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> What exactly is considered an Ivy league university? -- shadowkat, 11:31:08 09/20/02 Fri

Assuming it has to be in the North East and have ivy on the walls. Outside of that am drawing a blank.

Harvard, Yale....??

[> [> [> [> [> Re: What exactly is considered an Ivy league university? -- dream of the consortium, 11:42:06 09/20/02 Fri

Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, Brown, and the University of Pennsylvania

I can't remember all the Seven Sisters, but they include Radcliffe, Wellesley, Smith, Vassar

Not that my parents put much pressure on me or anything....

Wesleyan, Williams and Amherst are sometimes called the Little Ivies or even the Potted Ivies. Mostly to console those of us who didn't get into Brown.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What exactly is considered an Ivy league university? -- Alan Smithee, 13:12:07 09/20/02 Fri

Barnard? Bryn Mawr? I think they were seven sister schools too. Mount holyoke is all women so are they the seven?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Dartmouth, too, I think. -- trap, 06:19:11 09/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Re: What exactly is considered an Ivy league university? -- matching mole, 11:43:28 09/20/02 Fri

Checked on Google - I had a vague idea before, my suspicions were confirmed. An athletic conference. Consists of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, and Univ. Pennsylvania. All private schools in the northeast.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: What exactly is considered an Ivy league university? -- matching mole, 11:44:40 09/20/02 Fri

Checked on Google - I had a vague idea before, my suspicions were confirmed. An athletic conference. Consists of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, and Univ. Pennsylvania. All private schools in the northeast.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cornell -- aliera, 14:53:33 09/20/02 Fri

I think there's something different about Cornell...I could be wrong cuz goodness knows I'm ancient and things change; but, I thought some of the colleges were affiliated with the SUNY system. I was originally interested in VetSci before I wandered/stumbled down a different Road less travelled. It is still Ivy though.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cornell -- Rob, 20:38:01 09/20/02 Fri

My best friend goes to Cornell...The way it works is that Cornell University is divided into a bunch of smaller colleges, most of which are Ivy League. There are however a few general ed type schools there that are under the SUNY system. As a whole, though, when people say they are going to Cornell, they are usually referring to the Ivy League part. I think the SUNY part is called something slightly different, like SUNY at Ithaca, or something like that.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cornell...thanks, Rob! -- aliera, 04:47:22 09/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cornell -- Sara, 10:20:07 09/21/02 Sat

The SUNY schools at Cornell are "College of Agriculture and Life Sciences at Cornell", "College of Human Ecology", "the School of Industrial and Labor Relations" and the "College of Veterinary Medicine." They're called Statutory Colleges in the SUNY system and are managed jointly by SUNY and Cornell. There is a fifth Statutory college of Ceramics at Alfred University. This appears to be a different designation than used for the "SUNY - Environmental Science and Forestry" which is a SUNY college at Syracuse University, but is designated as a Specialized College.

- Sara, who had way too much fun on Google just now

[> [> [> [> Re: Speaking of snobbery . . . -- Arethusa, 11:50:54 09/20/02 Fri

Ah, but the point is snobbery, not accuracy. Anybody who knows Whedon went to Wesleyan probably doesn't need to be convinced that BtVs is a good show.
You don't have to have to convince me that top schools can graduate people of limited snob appeal or intellect. I've read enough about Bush's academic career to realize it wasn't impressive, along with his military service (he simply didn't show up for one year), and his business dealings (hired for Daddy's contacts, given sweetheart deals, etc...).

[> [> [> Re: Use snobbery to fight snobbery. -- Slain, 13:14:49 09/20/02 Fri

I've always expected people to ridicule me for watching Buffy but, perhaps because I was fortunate enough not to attend an Ivy League university (or their overseas equivalent), I didn't encounter any. I referenced Buffy in a disertation, and in reply my tutor described the show as one of the few works of art that would be remembered in hundreds of years. He made me take the reference out, though, but only because it was somewhat of a non-sequitur!

It seems to me that people who scoff at Buffy are frequently those who still think Modernism is exciting and new, and that Shakespear honestly is the best writer ever. Buffy is postmodern [insert plug for essay at the bottom of the page here], and doesn't need to make itself seem deeper than it is by confirming to the established idea of what great art should be. It understands that there's as much value, more, in lightness and irony than there is in ponderous, deliberate complexity masquerading as 'depth'. Much like Shakespeare, in fact, something Those Who Scoff decide to conveniently ignore. I know this, because I, prepostmodern and preuniversity, initially scoffed at Buffy as a 'silly' show.

[> Hmm I have always found Buffy as Cool. not closet cool. -- neaux, 07:25:33 09/20/02 Fri

I dont see your problem. Maybe its because every guy I know watches Buffy. They watch it for the fighting, the monsters, cool make-up. Oh yeah..and to see SMG. Oh yeah.. Lesbians are a big draw too.

Uh.. unless you go around sporting one of those Nasty Solid Black Buffy T-shirts. I'd say your in the cool "Xander Zone"

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- ponygirl, 07:55:43 09/20/02 Fri

You know you'd think in a SF & Fantasy class you'd be able to let your Buffy flag fly. I too know the shame of the closet, I've been mocked at work for my Buffy habit by web guys who had an arguement yesterday about who would win a fight between the Justice League and the Avengers, so go figure. I usually just say, "you obviously haven't watched it" and leave it at that. The thing I do find is that I really downplay just how into the show I am. I mean I don't just love Buffy, I LOVE Buffy, and displaying obsessive non-ironic passion can be a bit scary. So except among a few friends I don't let on that I know all the episode titles, or that I download scripts, or that I come here. I sometimes feel like a gay man in the '40s, who would signal their sexuality by wearing suspenders or a flower in the lapel, or maybe like a Mason -- when I meet someone who claims to like the show I'll test their level of commitment with a few hints before I dare reveal myself.

I don't know how to get out of this closet Apophis, but I have a feeling there are a lot of us in here (probably your prof too). And maybe your roommate will find he likes the show too. Of course you can always tell him you're watching the show for your class.

[> [> the answer? make converts to our perversion! -- Thomas the Skeptic, 08:54:40 09/20/02 Fri

When I was a youngster (lo, so many moons ago) there were adults in my family who warned me that when I was at the theater or the mall to watch out for "funny" men who would try to lure me into the restroom for "bad things". I did'nt know what the hell they were talking about but I asked them why these "funny" men would do such a thing. "To make converts to their cause" they cautiously (and cryptically) answered. Now that I'm older I know that, in their ignorance and stupidity, my relatives had confused homosexuality with pedophilia and, in so doing, had perpetuated a particularly vicious myth about gay society. Way OT, I know, but my point is, just like some gay people proudly call themselves "queer" to subvert the hurtfulness of the phrase, I came out of my Buffy closet by converting as many people as I could to my cause. I have been only haphazardly sucessful in bringing new recruits into the fold but at least I'm not ashamed of my "perversion" anymore. Say it loud, I'm a Buffy fan and I'm proud!

[> [> [> *L* - Maybe we should have a Buffy Pride march? -- Slain, 12:54:38 09/20/02 Fri

[> "Coming out of the Buffy closet." LOL -- mundusmundi, 08:56:37 09/20/02 Fri

Great post, Apophis. I empathize completely, my Buffy fetish being a subject of ridicule among members of my own family. (When there's ketchup on the table, one of them will often smirk and say, "Want some blood?") I can understand the skepticism. Although I saw nearly every episode from the start, it took about a third into the second season before I finally convinced myself that I was having a good time. Lately, though, I've been testing the waters for other closeted fans. Among a group of peers I may casually mention: "Well, this week, I've got two projects, three reading assignments, (*muffled breath*) the Buffy season premiere, and a paper due. How 'bout dem Buckeyes?" No takers as yet.

[> [> Go Bucks!!!! YEAH!! -- BunnyK., 15:03:35 09/20/02 Fri

[> [> Buckeyes? Are you nuts? LOL -- LittleBit, 12:09:54 09/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> Cashew repeat the question? -- Underworld, mm's punning evil twin, 12:17:46 09/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> Isn't it Macadamic? -- LittleBit, 16:13:24 09/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> You're cracking me up! -- Underworld, 19:50:27 09/21/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> I do what I Pecan! -- LittleBit, 07:19:40 09/22/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL. Ok. I bequeath my sword, like almond do eventually. -- Underworld, pushing it to the limit, 13:09:44 09/22/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Shell I accept, or nut? -- LittleBit, 23:30:54 09/22/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think you should just legume it go -- Shelless Undead, 14:09:52 09/23/02 Mon

[> [> [> no, no, no...the proper pun is: are you walnuts? -- anom, 23:40:58 09/22/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> LOL! How long did you wait to get that off your chest-nut? -- LittleBit, 12:17:31 09/23/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> He or she'd have responded sooner, but he or she had to pea-nut -- Dead (and apologizing abjectly to anom) Soul, 14:14:42 09/23/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> "had to pea-nut"?! you'd *butter* apologize! -- anom, 15:15:44 09/23/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I do, I do apologize, I don't want you to be *brittle* about this -- Dead Soul, 15:55:54 09/23/02 Mon

[> I admit to my addiction freely -- dream of the consortium, 10:32:09 09/20/02 Fri

I tell anyone who will listen that I watch Buffy. Not only that I watch Buffy, but that I ONLY watch Buffy - it's my sole tv hour of the week. People who express skepticism - or worse, say "it's a good show for teenagers" - can get hit with one of two quotes. Just the fact that I know them by heart reveals the depth of my obsession

From the American Prospect:
"When future critics ask whether turn-of-the-century American TV produced any works of genius, the verdict on the entire medium--all 128 channels of it--is likely to depend on their assessment of a cult teen hit currently airing on UPN, with syndicated reruns on FX." (Well, I shorten it, but you get the idea.)

I can't find the reference to the Salon quote, so I will have to paraphrase, but it was something like "Buffy has created a mythology so Byzantinely rich and complex, you could design a college course around it."

I've actually turned a number of people on to Buffy using this method. I work in a small social science research group at a university and all but one of the other people in my group now watch Buffy.

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- matching mole, 13:03:32 09/20/02 Fri

I can empathize. When I was in high school we were asked for our favourite TV shows in class one day. While the vast majority of my classmates picked either Charlies Angels or Starsky and Hutch (automatically dating myself here) I picked Star Trek (the original series of course - then the only one in existence). I was the subject of a modest amount of scorn. A year or two later I would have picked the Prisoner or Monty Python's Flying Circus which would have been a lot worse.

I neither hide nor advertise my viewing habits but seeing as live with a fellow BtVS fan (my wife has a Buffy action figure in her office - a gift from her lab) I don't really have to worry about it one way or another. Apparently (based on the taping thread of a couple of weeks ago) I'm a lot less obsessive than a lot of the rest of the board (not saying this is good or bad - just apparently the way it is). Never really felt the need to either convert the masses or defend myself. I think the genre aspect to the snobbery is a lot less important than the perception of teen silliness.

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- TeacherBoy, 13:47:08 09/20/02 Fri

As someone who grew up in the midwest, I feel for you. I have been "out" for about two years now. Every once in a while, I still get crap from some of my more manly friends, but not much. But that's nothing. You should see the crap I get from my students. Yes, they all know I watch the show, and tease me constantly about it (BtVS is apparently not big with the inner city crowd). They were horrible to a sub one day (big suprise), so I made each of them write a two page piece of "fanfic" - I thought they would never forgive me. By far the funniest teaching moment of the year.

TeacherBoy

ps - I strongly disagree with those who say that you should tell people you watch it for the T&A. Big mistake. Just tell people you like the show, if they don't, fine. Don't try to convince them. Be out and proud!

[> Odd thing about Buffy and big, "manly men" -- cjl, 14:08:55 09/20/02 Fri

You can't make generalizations based on looks or even socioeconomic background. Sean ("Ozmandayus") on the BC&S board is reported to look like a linebacker for the Steelers, but his love for the Buffster knows no equal.

I have a friend here in Brooklyn who could also crouch down in the old four-point stance and do some damage, but he absolutely refuses to watch BtVS. Why? Because he feels it's "girly"? Because he thinks it's teenage fluff? Because it's not macho enough?

Nope.

He remembers SMG as Kendall on AMC, and he COULDN'T STAND HER.

No matter how much I implore him to give the show a chance, he won't budge. And he's 300 pounds, so I'm facing an uphill battle here.

Just shows to go you...

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:33:49 09/20/02 Fri

As of now, I've been watching Buffy for a few months, and only my family know about it. It's just not the thing I have an easy time bringing up with people (of course, I'm kinda anti-social, so that doesn't make things any easier). On a few occassions, my parents have been in the same room as me when I watch Buffy. Not to watch it, but because they've got something else to be doing in the vicinity. They've made it clear they don't have a problem with it, but whenever they're in the room during Buffy I become more self-conscious of some of the sillier aspects (demons pompously bragging about their ancient orders, the wide array of magic used, and some parts of the plot (Villains seemed a tad sillier and a little less dramatic witht them viewing it)).

I have never tried to convert my family to being Buffy fans. Mainly because I know it probably wouldn't work. Not because they're snobs or anything, but because they tend to be very uncomfortable with violence, which plays a major role in Buffy. However, if you ever want to prove to someone that Buffy is a good, quality show, I suggest "Lie To Me". It comes surprisingly close to conventional drama, and Billy Ford beats out most of the troubled people shown on lawyer shows.

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- Sarand, 16:53:07 09/20/02 Fri

I'm kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum from you, Apophis. I'm in my forties and became obsessed with Buffy only this past year. (Since I did not start watching until after 9/11, Bluelight's post last week had a certain resonance for me). I'm basically in the closet, only occasionally testing the waters. When a few friends were getting together to watch the season finale of "24," I initially demurred, saying that I didn't want to miss the season finale of "Buffy." Nobody said anything but they didn't have to - the strange looks were enough. I recently confessed to my brother that I not only watched the show but that I regularly visited internet sites about the show. After he stopped laughing, he said one of the nicest things he's ever said to me: "I know one other intelligent woman who's a big fan of Buffy." Anyone else who has an older brother knows that even as we age, compliments are few and far between. But in the end, I've decided to keep my obsession to myself. People don't know what they are missing, that's their problem. I won't deny if asked but I won't tell otherwise.

[> [> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- shadowkat, 19:41:05 09/20/02 Fri

"After he stopped laughing, he said one of the nicest things he's ever said to me: "I know one other intelligent woman who's a big fan of Buffy." Anyone else who has an older brother knows that even as we age, compliments are few and far between. But in the end, I've decided to keep my obsession to myself. People don't know what they are missing, that's their problem. I won't deny if asked but I won't tell otherwise."

Well I have a younger brother, three years younger, who joined me and my mother to watch Buffy while we visited our parents for Christmas. He's 6'5 and I wouldn't want to fight him. We're both grown now and living far from home, only seeing the family during holidays. When I told my brother I wrote Buffy essays and someone created a web site for me? He said, "your nuts but in a great way!"
and while he tends to prefer Angel, he's always loved Buffy and has several friends who do. To him mentioning that you watch Buffy is cool. It's a cool hip show. He watched 24, but only b/c he knew I was taping Buffy. He owns his own graphic design company and teachs a graduate art program at Yale.

I only really liked two shows on TV this year: Buffy and Angel. And of the new shows I've seen? Only Firefly really held my interest. I've seen a lot of television in my lifetime, but what holds my interest with Btvs is that I can't predict it. It always surprises me. The characters are richly drawn and multifaceted. The dialogue is droll and witty. And it does not take itself too seriously. (I can't really say that about any other tv show, and I've seen pretty much all the ones nominated for emmys at one time or another, IMHO none of them come close to Btvs's wit or layered character development or interesting plots.)

I'm not in the closet anymore. My friends know i have a website and have written essays on it. They know I prefer the show to other shows. And well, let's say - I don't make fun of their television watching habits and they don't make fun of mine.

Don't ever apologize for what you like. Taste is a subjective thing. And even Shakespeare was at one time considered just for the plebs (lower class).

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- IVETTE, 17:24:11 09/20/02 Fri

I HAVE THE SAME FREAKIN' PROBLEM, I JUST GOT INTO COLLEGE AND I CANT LET ANY OF MY NEW FRIENDS KNOW I AND A FAN OF THE SHOW, AND IM A HUGE FAN, I EVEN GOT THE SOUNDTRAK AN A BACKPACK, BUT I DO KNOW WHY, I MEAN WHE I WAS IN HIGHSCHOOL, ALL OF MY FRIENDS AND I LOVE THE SHOW,(AMONG OTHERS LIKE ANGEL, DARK ANGEL, FRIENDS , DAWSONS CREEK AND CHARMED)ANYWAY, WE COULD TALK ABOUT IT FOR HOURS, AND NOW, I HAVE NOONE WHO UNDERSTANDS HOW I FEEL ABOUT WATCHING IT, AND THE THING IS , I HAVE TO DO IT, I MEAN IM NOT CALM UNTIL I GET MY WEEKLY EPISODE.

THERE I SAID IT IM A FREAK, BUT I SURE LOVE TO BE ONE

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- Sara, 10:02:18 09/21/02 Sat

You know whether it's liking Buffy, or putting ketchup on your roast beef sandwiches, it's really hard to be who you are. You can go nuts being embarrassed by things you say, do, and like, or you can say "oh well, this is who I am, get over it." I'm not saying that the 'oh well' approach removes all embarrassment from your life, but those feelings of discomfort fade really quickly if they're just based on your idea of what someone else's idea of you is. To prove my point: "I LOVE SURVIVOR!!! THERE I ADMITTED IT!!! DOES ANYONE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT???" Good luck and just be happy you're not reading "Gravity's Rainbow."

- Sara, who has taken many decades to deal with her many and varied quirks, neuroses, evil tv viewing habits, and is continuing to try to deal and cope...

[> Girly shows -- Slain, 10:09:00 09/21/02 Sat

I suppose a lot of TV shows I watch are considered relatively girly; but I'd counter that that's because 'girly' shows, at least in America, tend to be more subtle and sophisticated, as there's a conception that 'men's programming' should be more action-based and simpler. So, in that sense, Buffy is a girly show. Go girly shows, is what I say.

[> as to roommates... a response taking account of traditional masculinity. -- Rochefort, 11:24:42 09/21/02 Sat

The first time I tried to watch Buffy, my roommate saw it and said "Oh that show is for boys who are still 14 years old inside and want to lust after Sara Michelle Gellar".

Here's the deal. You HAVE to watch Buffy in front of your roommate. Not just for the sake of watching Buffy, but for your overall sanity.

You know how males do that alpha male/ beta male thing? Not watching a show you want to watch puts you immediatly in the inferior position to your roommate. One step towards him walking around like the Silver Back Gorilla. It's tough to reverse that sort of thing. The next thing you know he's throwing banannas at you when you try to get food out of the frigge. My roommate's comment was more than just about Buffy, it showed a lack of respect for me and a desire to put me down. It was quite a struggle to live in a room where an ape-male was trying to exert his dominance all the time. At any rate, doing whatEVER the hell you want, Buffy, everything, is the only thing to do. You can't be uncomfortable in your own place, and if Buffy makes HIM uncomfortable GOOD. Play your music really loud too.

By the way, the end of my story is after a year's lease of fights I now room with two VERY pleasant cats.

Finally, chicks think it's cool I watch Buffy. So you don't have to worry about it getting out. Girls will just find you to talk about the show. And then they'll start wanting to come over to WATCH it with you. And then you'll be sitting there in your room with all these hot girls watching Buffy and where will you roommate be THEN? ha ha ha.

Rochefort

[> Re: Coming out of the Buffy closet -- Kenny, 08:00:43 09/22/02 Sun

In my opinion the problem here is that people feel uncomfortable with the role/gender reversal in BtVS. They whole-heartedly embrace the current form of society in it's out of balance structue i.e. patriarchy, and due to the need for security they resist change. Women taking the lead just won't do. I believe that women and men contain both genders psychologically speaking and both deserve expression. My advice for what it's worth, is follow your own instinct on this and ignore collective fears. To put it bluntly; fuck crap tarts and alpha males.

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