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Angel Season 4 hopes and questions - - Masq, 16:43:02 09/17/02 Tue

I was recently contacted by the TV writer for the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette newspaper in Little Rock, Arkansas to give my speculations and hopes for Season 4 of Angel for her upcoming article announcing the show's 4th Season. Thought I'd pass along my response and see what other folks think.

Mark your spoilers if you plan to post some, so I can hide my virigin eyes! (OK, I admit, I watched the previews on Sunday... but that's it!!)

====

I'm what you call a "spoiler-free" fan. That means I don't read the press releases that give clues about the upcoming season, nor do I read the rumors circulating among internet fans. I don't want to know what will happen until it happens. So everything I'm going to say is based on how season 3 ended.

The third-season finale felt more like a mid-season December break than a May season finale. It left just about every character suspended in mid-story.

The biggest news of Season 3 was the mysterious mystical birth of a human child to Angel and Darla, both vampires. Darla died giving the baby life, and Angel brought his son, who he named Connor, home to raise with the help of his friends.

* As the season drew to a close, however, Wesley took the infant Connor away from Angel out of a misguided fear that Angel would harm him. Then Angel's old enemy, Holtz, stole the baby from Wesley and disappeared with him into a hell dimension. Angel was devastated, and Wesley was ostracized by Angel's friends and co-workers.

Wesley was just starting to go downhill into despair from losing his friends, just starting to respond to the seduction of Lilah, a lawyer from Wolfram and Hart (the evil law firm that dogs Angel's every step) when the season ended.

Will Wesley continue his downward spiral? Will his anger and self-loathing bring out a dark side lurking within? And will his old friends try at all to help him?

Personally, I'm hoping to see a little more of Wesley's dark side. We know he was emotionally abused as a child, and that his decisions as a Watcher in Sunnydale and as a leader in Angel Investigations have sometimes been just a little bit ruthless--he has been willing to sacrifice the one or the few to save the many (e.g., "Choices" from BtVS, "There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb" from Angel season 2).

I hope they play Wesley's descent subtly, though, because I don't see a basically good man like Wesley being remotely tempted by the kind of obvious evil that Lilah and Wolfram and Hart represent.

* With only three episodes left of season 3, Connor returned to Earth, a teen-ager. His adopted "father" Holtz followed, now older as well. Holtz stole Connor from Angel to get revenge for a time in the distant past when Angelus killed his family, and at the end of season 3, Holtz had a final plan of vengeance against Angel. Holtz told Angel he was returning Connor to Angel's custody, then arranged his own death so that Connor would conclude that Angel killed him.

In his grief over Holtz' death, Connor buried Angel alive in the watery depths of the ocean. Angel's been down there for months at this point. Vampires don't die of starvation, but don't expect Angel to be healthy--or happy--when he is freed.

Father and son barely had time to get to know each other last season, so I'm looking forward to more exploration of the Angel-Connor relationship. Connor was raised by Holtz to despise his real father, to think of him as evil, and Angel, who is a hero now, has missed out on sixteen years of his son's life and wants them to be closer.

Angel and Connor are more alike than different, and they need each other, but I don't believe it will be easy for Angel to win Connor over. If the story begins to head in a happy direction, however, you know something dreadful will happen to wrench the two apart again. That's just how Joss Whedon works.

* Many fans will be wondering what will happen in season 4 between Cordelia and Angel. They were just about to admit their blossoming romantic feelings for each other when fate intervened to whisk them both away from their appointed meeting place.

I don't have much interest in this story line. The two don't work well as a romantic couple for me. However, the writers will continue with this story, and it will raise an important issue. The last time Angel was truly in love, he made love with his beloved (Buffy) and lost his soul and became the evil Angelus again. Angel's ambivalent feelings for Darla allowed him to have sex with her and walk away with his soul. But if Angel is truly in love with Cordelia, he won't be able to enter into a relationship with her without dealing with the nasty "small print" catch to his gypsy curse.

* As season 4 starts, the more urgent Cordelia question for me is--where the heck is she? In season 3, Cordelia chose to become part demon in order to keep her psychic visions and her life. The newer powers she acquired by becoming a demon, however, have barely been explored. They only started to appear in the last few episodes of the season, and what seemed clear (at least to me) was that she didn't have much control over them.

So it was a little odd when her demon mentor, Skip, stopped her on the freeway in the season finale to praise her use of those powers. He called her a "higher being" and drew her up towards "higher dimensions" to fight against evil there. In season 4, Cordelia's coming back to Earth. That much I know. So I have to ask--what really happened on that freeway? Was everything as it appeared, as Cordelia believed it to be? Or was the "saintly" new Cordelia seduced by her once-infamous pride?

Let's just say you can color me a little confused if Cordelia's ascension was exactly what it appeared to be. That'd be lame.

Of course, the biggest question I will be asking about Season 4 Cordelia is--will she return with that really bad haircut she was sporting at the end of last season?

* Cordelia and Angel and Wesley's exits left relative new- comers Charles Gunn and Fred (Winifred) Burkle alone to take care of Angel's detective business. You gotta wonder how this twosome of cuteness has fared, both in demon-fighting and in their own romance. And what do they think has happened to their friends?

These are the questions I'll expect answers to in the first few episodes of season 4. Of course, if this season goes like any other, some of the questions won't be answered until much later on. Just in time for them to leave us with new questions!
[> Excellent summary... -- JBone, 17:20:44 09/17/02 Tue

And whatever quibbles I may have with your speculations and hopes are minor enough that I won't even bother voicing them. I'd rather just watch a new episode.
[> [> This is pure speculation (no spoilers)... -- Marie, 01:15:57 09/18/02 Wed

...but I don't think much, if any, time will have elapsed in the Angelverse when S4 starts. After all, Gunn and Fred are still there, and they're going to be looking for answers - surely they're going to have to start with Connor?

And once they find him, and/or Justine, I don't think an angry Connor is going to be able to hide the fact that Angel (as he thinks) killed his 'father'. Which in turn will surely lead them to Holtz's body and the discovery that Angel actually didn't. And they are investigators aren't they? Won't be that hard for them to follow the clues, surely? Fred is going to be they key figure there, I think. So Angel may not be in his watery coffin that long... say, up to episode 3?

I think all that business with Skip was a con - a test, that Cordelia failed. Will they send her back down to test her some more? As far as she and Angel are concerned - Angel will never have that moment of pure happiness if his son still hates him, so the writers may feel that gives them a safety net, at least for a while. And will they have a good hairdresser up there, d'ya think?!

I too, hope that Wesley stays dark. I think he'll make a more interesting noir-Wesley than Angel made noir-Angel. I hope we're shown some more of his background, and what makes him tick.

Marie
[> [> [> Re: This is pure speculation (no spoilers)... -- Arethusa, 05:08:35 09/18/02 Wed

It would be more interesting dramatically if three months have passed, so I expect that to happen. I think the afterefects of Angel's time in a watery grave will help maintain a huge strain in the relationship between Angel and Connor, although if I were the boy I might not be around. Still, you can't have conflict without Connnor's presence, so I expect Angel and Connor to spend several episodes fighting.

I already guessed about Cordelia's faate, but I'm not sure about C/A. It didn't really seem to be going anywhere last season. There was only one conversation between Angel and Cordy about their relationship. Either they'll drag this on forever or they'll end it-can't tell which.

Since all relationships are doomed at ME, I think Gunn and Fred will break up, at least for a while. Maybe that will make Fred more interesting, and we'll see more kicka-- Gunn. Here's hoping.

More Wesleyus, more mutual torture scenes between Lilah and Wes. That's an order, not a prediction.
[> [> [> Re: This is pure speculation (no spoilers)... -- shadowkat, 07:32:27 09/18/02 Wed

"Which in turn will surely lead them to Holtz's body and the discovery that Angel actually didn't. And they are investigators aren't they? Won't be that hard for them to follow the clues, surely? "

Uh...no. Thought the same thing. But remember, Connor and Justine burned Holtz body at the beginning of the season finale. His Body is ash. (Sorry can never remember the names of Ats episodes.) So, they won't be able to prove it that way.
Not sure they'll ever be able to prove it unless someone like Justine or Holtz's ghost or some other entity tells them.
[> [> [> Re: This is pure speculation (no spoilers)... -- shadowkat, 07:34:18 09/18/02 Wed

"Which in turn will surely lead them to Holtz's body and the discovery that Angel actually didn't. And they are investigators aren't they? Won't be that hard for them to follow the clues, surely? "

Uh...no. Thought the same thing. But remember, Connor and Justine burned Holtz body at the beginning of the season finale. His Body is ash. (Sorry can never remember the names of Ats episodes.) So, they won't be able to prove it that way.
Not sure they'll ever be able to prove it unless someone like Justine or Holtz's ghost or some other entity tells them.
[> [> [> [> Oops double post. Sorry..Stupid computer. -- shadowkat, 07:36:02 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Drat'ndrabbit! How soon we - er - I - forget! -- Marie, 07:45:10 09/18/02 Wed

I just remembered the decapitation, forgot the body-burning! Wonder what that says about me?! Though I still think Fred'll find a way to figure things out - finding the implement Justine used (forgotten that, too!) would be a start. Did Justine remember to wash off the blood? Did she even throw it away?

Marie
[> MMMmmmmmm Wesley.....:):):):) -- Rufus, 01:53:03 09/18/02 Wed

I'm what you call a "spoiler-free" fan. That means I don't read the press releases that give clues about the upcoming season, nor do I read the rumors circulating among internet fans. I don't want to know what will happen until it happens. So everything I'm going to say is based on how season 3 ended.

I have to agree with you....I sat there thinking WTFudgesicle when the season finale finished. I hated what they did with Cordy because it seemed so fake...I did however appreciate Connor sending his Dad for a long bath, it shows how even with best intentions things can go so wrong. Angel didn't deserve what Connor did to him, but just like Angel couldn't understand his own father so long ago it makes sense that fatherhood would end up with the same sort of misunderstandings. Angels father didn't spare the rod and look what happened to the child, I wonder what approach Angel will take with his own son or will it turn into yet another twisted 'contest'.

What I hope for the season is for Wesley to dance on that line between darkness and light then have something happen that gets him to smarten up.....or at least quit boinking the vicious bitch/Lilah. Fred to knock off the Lolita act....Lorne to return to the fold....and Cordy to get better hair (I just can't comment on her storyline).
[> [> The Lolita act? -- Masq, 05:58:08 09/18/02 Wed

Maybe my Lolita isn't up to snuff, but how is Fred acting like a Lolita?
[> [> [> Re: The Lolita act? -- yabyumpan, 06:22:18 09/18/02 Wed

I think Lolita is probably stretching it a bit but I agree that she is a woman who I would think is probably in her mid- twenties, who acts a lot of times like a little girl. It is a bit squirmy IMO
[> [> [> [> Remember she spent all that time in Pylea -- shadowkat, 07:28:57 09/18/02 Wed

Now I love Fred. But...she has a tendency to act like a child at times, which while incredibly creepy and annoying works for the character if you think about it.
(The high halting voice, the thing about pancakes, the mannerisms...I'm sure others can find better examples )

She spent the better part of five years (or was it longer) in another dimension, alone, enslaved, living in a Cave.
She should be a bit socially challenged and like a child.
Even more so than Anya is in Btvs. Even before she got sucked into the porthole, she was described as a loner, very bookish, and not good with people. So characterwise?
I think Fred works. Hopefully she'll grow past it more this season.

I'm also not real fond of the Gunn - Fred pairing, sorry see 0 chemistry there. But apparently the writers do...
so i guess i will have to just continue to ignore their romance and deal.
[> [> [> [> [> Does it matter at all... -- pr10n, 09:06:59 09/18/02 Wed

... that she identifies with a traditionally male name?

"Fred" + Pylea = identity issues?

I think I'd arrest in my adolescence too, if that was the last happy memory I had before poofing into a HellDimension.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Why the Fred/Gunn romance SHOULD work (but doesn't) -- cjl, 10:03:52 09/18/02 Wed

I've been looking at the pairing of Fred and Gunn and I'm wondering why it doesn't work for me. Is it Amy Acker and J. August Richards? (Sometimes, it is the actors, you know. See Marc Blucas/SMG.) No, I kind of think they look cute together. They both have well-defined, if underutilized, characters. So what the heck is wrong?

I think the problems is that I don't understand the basis of the relationship. Why is Fred attracted to Gunn, and vice versa? What aspects of their characters draw them to each other? Is it because he's a big, yet sensitive hunk o' he- man who buys her pancakes? Because she's a brainy, yet adorable daffy physicist who LIKES pancakes?

I'd feel a lot better about the pairing if we had a scene where Gunn, for instance, talked to Cordelia about what lights a fire under him when he sees Fred. If he told Cordy that Fred's determination and passion to survive in Pylea and her willingness to fight for AI, reminds him of the fire he saw in his sister. Something like that.

Otherwise, just too much goopy pancake syrup and not enough nutrition for my taste.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why the Fred/Gunn romance SHOULD work (but doesn't) -- shadowkat, 11:05:01 09/18/02 Wed

I think you hit the nail on the head here. They have done next to nothing to establish a relationship between Gunn
and Fred. I actually saw more of a relationship developing between Fred and Wes and maybe Cordy and Gunn. The Gunn/Fred relationship surprised me and not in a ...whoa
should have seen that sort of way. No clear build up.

It's not really the actors so much as the writing. Also the epsiodes that are meant to further their relationship and make us care about them, seem to fall oddly flat.
Double or Nothing comes to mind = that was supposed to be the big Fred/Gunn episode. And the episode with Cordy, Groo and the Tree = which I can't even remember the name of.
Neither episode registered. If anything I was just annoyed.

They did show a little sparkage in Loyalty and some in
Sleep Tight and The Price...but not enough to convince me
that they really loved each other.

Again it could be personal taste. There are fans out there that love them.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why the Fred/Gunn romance SHOULD work (but doesn't) -- Cleanthes, 11:12:42 09/18/02 Wed

I actually saw more of a relationship developing between Fred and Wes and maybe Cordy and Gunn.

I saw even more of a relationship developing between Wes and Gunn. THEY have chemistry, IMO.

Am I the only one who thinks this?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not the only one! -- Scroll, 11:26:19 09/18/02 Wed

Honestly, when you think about it, Fred is pretty much Girl Wesley. How weird is that? Especially when you factor in all the UST between Wes and Gunn last season. I definitely see more chemistry between Wes and Gunn, more chemistry between Cordy and Gunn, than between Fred and Gunn. But of course this is JMHO.

I really wish ME (or the WB execs if they're forcing ME) would get over the idea that we need to put every single character into a romantic relationship, Just Because. Personally, I loved the "we're family" approach from Seasons 1 and 2 much better.

Scroll
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not the only one! -- Slain, 17:55:29 09/19/02 Thu

That sums up feelings I've been having about Angel (er, feelings about the show 'Angel', not feeling about Angel), but hadn't put into words. In BtVS, they have a good balance in which a central family (Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles) share slightly a flirtatious platonic relationship, with additional characters added and subtracted. Whereas with AtS, you have an established group of Angel, Cordy, Wes and Gunn and no one really breaching that. And everyone knows that incest isn't good for the gene pool. The Willow/Xander/Buffy triangle didn't work beyond one season for BtVS, after all.

I like Gunn and Fred, because it just seemed natural and deliberately not rationalised in a 'these are the things I love about her' way - which was how I felt Cordy seemed to behave about Groo, telling us why she loved him. Perhaps the reason why I like Fred with Gunn is that I prefer Wesley as a miserable, somewhat Raskolnikoff or Camus- like character, isloated and bitter, sleeping around and hitting the bottle.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nope...saw that one myself -- shadowkat, 11:28:46 09/18/02 Wed

Actually Wes and anyone has chemistry right now.

But I saw a ton between Wes and Gunn, particularly in that scene where Gunn goes to Wesely in The Price to get
Fred's cure. Whoa!

Shame ME doesn't appear to want to do a male homosexual relationship.

SK
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I, too, miss the days when Wes could execute a perfect "soul brother" handshake. -- cjl, 11:43:26 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's it! The developing friendships... -- Arethusa, 12:01:58 09/18/02 Wed

are being sacrificed to the developing romances. That's why I can't get into the ships on AtS, and have preferred non-AI romantic partners for the Bat Gang. The sense of family is dissipating as the romances heat up. Could that be what ME is doing-using the romances to break up the truly important, familial relationships, thereby adding angst for AI and torment for us? Could ME just be playing with us?

Nah....
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Destroying friendships on purpose -- Scroll, 12:22:54 09/18/02 Wed

I maintain that Gunn/Fred was added simply because the writers needed the Gunn/Fred/Wes love triangle. If the writers hadn't needed to isolate Wes in a truly horrific way (make the guy fall in love, get possessed and stalk/kill the girl, then have girl hook up with best friend, brain-suck best friend so that he acts like a jealous doof) they wouldn't have bothered with Gunn/Fred (I hope).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Falling through the Looking Glass with Dad -- alcibiades, 20:28:26 09/18/02 Wed

Could that be what ME is doing-using the romances to break up the truly important, familial relationships, thereby adding angst for AI and torment for us? Could ME just be playing with us?

They're not playing with us, they're doing it on purpose. It's a serious motif and one they are very conscious of.

On Angel there is this visual metaphor they use to define who is in the family at any one point -- it may have started in Pangs On Buffy, or at least that is the first time I saw it, There is a shot where Angel is on the outside and framed through the window you see the Buffy family -- which includes a tied up Spike but no Riley. The point is that Angel's path is now irrevocably split from Buffy's because although she senses him, he is no longer can be a part of her family.

In any case, this visual device of the window as a way of defining family repeats in several Angel shows. (And I have to confess I haven't seen any Angel 1's and only a few Angel 2's and I saw most of the Angel 3's before I realized what was going on, so it may be in more than I mention here.)

You see the window symbol again in the hospital scene in A Thin Blue Line, where Angel is once again looking through the hospital window into the room where his family is, Gunn, Wes, Cordy, maybe someone else, but Angel is again on the outside. He's lost his family -- the imagery is clear. But in case the imagery doesn't speak loudly enough, they tell him so point blank.

There is another scene in Angel 3, after Wesley's "betrayal", where Angel has his office back and Fred and Gunn are standing outside looking in at Angel working all alone, because at that point with the two couples paired off and his son gone to hell, that is who his family consists of. Angel, alone.

Finally, in the first lengthy episode where Connor returns, when Angel and he are fighting the drug guys in that squatter's den, Angel tells Connor to jump out the window and escape. Connor leaps, but he is about to be shot, so Angel stands and takes the bullet for him and they leap out the window together. It is that moment that they sail through the window together that Connor re-evaluates Angel for the first time as possible family -- as a father figure who was ready to die for him. He stops running away from him and treats him with a certain amount of respect. And a certain question in his mind begins to grow about Holtz.

It makes sense that the question of family should change over time. Angel, of course, is desperately in search of a family -- as Spike defines himself through love of a woman, Angel defines himself by building a family around himself. Without a family, he feels like nothing. It is a sympton of Liam -- he needs a family so much because his own family did not love him. He creates a family as a vampire, however unhealthy and disfunctional. He threatens to kill Spike when Spike disrupts the safety of the family. Just as he tries to kill Wesley when Wesley succeeds in disrupting the safety of his family. Angel finds forgiving Wesley intolerable, but he can forgive Holtz, because he destroyed Holtz's family, and that resonates with his own values, whereas he finds Wesley's actions unforgiveable -- at least so far. (Of course, from Wesley's POV, he was acting as a savior to a son he thought was going to be abused/consumed/eaten/destroyed by his father just as his father tried to consume/eat/destroy him.)

The central necessity of family to Angel also explains two more things:

The first thing is why Angel was so sensitive to Joyce's request to him that he break up with Buffy so that she could have a normal family. Since this is one of his issues, he was particularly sensitive to it as far as Buffy went as well.

The second thing is the reason the re-emergence of Darla so torpedoed Angel's incipient work family -- the question of loyalties and ties reared its head - do we owe loyalty to our original family, to our mother who is psychologically our model for a lover, or to the family one we choose and create as an independent adult. And until that question is resolved for Angel, obsession and self-destruction is the result.

But at some point, of course, the work family or family of friends is going to be replaced by the natural family -- because people pair off and have children and leave their friends to some extent. And that is what started happening last year on Angel -- Angel had a child with his mother, so to speak, or perhaps we should call her the divorced wife, and everyone else coupled off.

So, in fact, I think ME is trying not to play with us, but to show the natural evolution of family for Angel.

I am not entirely sure this image is relevant here, but it is interesting that when Cordelia looks in the looking Glass in the final episode of A3, all she sees is herself reflected back at her more splendidly. And she listens to and falls in love with that more transcendent image. Inescapably one thinks of Narcissus. But it also seems to indicate that Cordelia is not yet ready to be in a "relationship," to couple off, because her narcissism -- as opposed to healthy self-love -- is still firmly in place.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wow! That was a brilliant analysis! -- ponygirl, 08:15:02 09/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Very interesting -- Arethusa, 08:32:11 09/19/02 Thu

Good point about family. I'll pay more attention to the meaning of how the scenes are framed now. And about Cordy- it was in Through the Looking Glass that Cordeia was made princess of Pylea, a false and glorified image of herself.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also wow! This is really insightful -- Scroll, 10:15:28 09/19/02 Thu

I've never really seen Angel's desire for family so clearly laid out before, though I had a glimmer of it in the back of my mind. This analysis seems dead-on, especially in regards to how Angel sees Wesley and vice versa. Makes you wonder where exactly ME is going with the pairings at the end of Season 3 because obviously they wouldn't create the heightened tensions we saw without proving some kind of point at the end.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Another point about framing -- alcibiades, 11:13:59 09/19/02 Thu

Thanks for the positive comments.

Just one more point about "framing" in Angel. After the earthquake, the episode after Wesley goes to the Loa Burger, and for I believe the next two shows after that, a shot ME keeps returning to is a picture frame on the wall knocked askew.

It's meant to refer to the state of affairs at AI. That everything now has been thrown off and is askew.

Come to think of it, the characters -- was it Cordy? -- also reference the fact that cracks have now appeared in the walls that will never go away until proper work is done on them to fix them -- not shoddy attempts at covering them with a paint job -- a new facade to hide the foundational fractures.

Doesn't Angel say, the good thing about living in an (empty!) hotel is that if something is wrong is one room, you can move to another. Like usual when it comes to wiggy emotional stuff, and not fixing the problem.

(Relying on faulty memory here, so with Psyche temporarily down, hope I haven't made up Angel's reply.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The hotel as metaphor (was there any doubt?) -- Arethusa, 11:36:02 09/19/02 Thu

The hotel, as a whole, represents Angel's attempt to get his house in order, so to speak. As s'kat noted, it is in the hotel that Angel has probably his biggest test, post- resouling: fight the paranoia demon to save the less-than- savory inhabitants. He fails, being still unconnected to humanity, but later steps up to helping Buffy. When he goes back to the hotel to defeat the paranoia demon decades later, he is ready to help humanity. His failings often result in damage to the hotel itself, hence the "weekly scrubbing of the lobby floor." And the cracks from the earthquake are like the cracks in the relationships, which will reappear if just plastered over and would cost a lot to fix permanently-if they can be fixed at all.

Incidentally, the Hyperion is really the Los Altos Hotel and Apartments, in LA. Check it out:

http://www.seeing-stars.com/Locations/TVlocations7.shtml
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The hotel as metaphor (was there any doubt?) -- shadowkat, 12:42:26 09/19/02 Thu

Ats seems to use buildings as a metaphor a lot.

Notice that when the family almost got broken apart in Season 1 - the Forces of Darkness blew up Angel Investigations. This time it was outside forces that tried to break them asunder as opposed to internal forces.

The demon came in to Shanshu in LA and put Cordy & Wes in the hospital. As well as resurrecting Darla.

Then Darla served to break Angel apart from his friends, albeit briefly. Causing the friends to change residences - he kicked them out of the hotel.

Now with Hyperion - which Wes had to help Angel clean of the demon, Angel couldn't do it alone, he needed Wes and Cordy and Gunn's help. As each character leaves - damage appears to the hotel. First it's Wes - the earthquake, bombed room, then the baby - the marks on the floor...

The building seems to take on the attributes of its owners.
(As buildings can often do in real life - hence the notion of hauntings). And great point about how Angel thinks the best way of handling the problem is to change rooms.

Groo thinks its best to brighten the colors, make it pretty.
Cordy to just paint over the mistake. We can't scrub it out, let's cover it.
Gunn considers moving locals.
Angel ignores or jumps rooms. (Angel's way of dealing with his problems has always reminded me a great deal of Buffy's btw.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> In all fairness... -- Masq, 13:00:59 09/19/02 Thu

Angel did say, "nice thing about owning a hotel, it's full
a rooms. I'll move into another one till we get it fixed"
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The hotel as metaphor (was there any doubt?) -- Rahael, 03:00:26 09/20/02 Fri

Excellent points, Alcibiades, Arethusa.

There's also Cordelia's haunted apartment, with its dark skeletal secret hidden away. Surely there must be some significance in Cordelia's confrontation with the maternal, child killing figure, and her ability to co-exist in peace with the murdered ghost, Dennis?

Then in Birthday, she discovers her true calling by peeling away wallpaper, as if to say that the person she really is is always there, under the fancy clothing and make up.

There's the maggots that emerge from the hotel when Connor arrives, and the peeling walls of the hotel, just as the man's skin peels. I still haven't seen that ep, so I'm going by posts and vague recollections of wildfeeds.

The Hotel, as you point out, Arethusa, haunted by the paranoia demon with it's hatred of mankind and happiness...surely that's analogous to the misery that's stalked Angel? And the old woman, living in a room, scared, lonely, but feeding on that fear to protect her? Surely that too is a part of Angel. Angel's struggle to forgive himself for his crimes has a resemblance for Judy's secret shame. He returns, kills the paranoia demon and says that there's nothing to forgive. Able to inhabit the Hotel, which looks the same as the Hotel haunted by the demon, but is a very different place. Much like Angelus and Angel look the same, but aren't.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The hotel as metaphor (was there any doubt?) -- alcibiades, 06:29:47 09/20/02 Fri

Thanks Rahael.

The Hotel, as you point out, Arethusa, haunted by the paranoia demon with it's hatred of mankind and happiness...surely that's analogous to the misery that's stalked Angel? And the old woman, living in a room, scared, lonely, but feeding on that fear to protect her? Surely that too is a part of Angel.

I've never seen the ep, but that does seem to be Angel -- and in fact it helps to answer Masq's objection that Angel says he wants to move rooms until his room is fixed.

Because when Angel does get his room repainted and put together again, he insists that it be in exactly the same way it was. And its because he is needing to hold onto the misery and loneliness and chaos and failure of his life without Connor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The hotel as metaphor (was there any doubt?) -- yabyumpan, 08:00:32 09/20/02 Fri

Carrying on the metaphor: The hotel could also be seen as Angel's potential; many rooms not used but empty, just needing to be 'fixed up'. In 'The Price' we had a whole wing to be discovered and explored and the discovery of the ballroom/pool.
We had the wonderfull discusion in the memes thread about dancing representing interaction with others etc, different dances representing different patterns (if I've mis- represented anything anyone said, please correct me. I'm going by the impression the discussion left me with, not remebering specific sentences etc).
We also have the pool which could represent emotions yet to be explored. In various ritual/paganish work I've done, water represents the emotions and the flow and state of the water can be seen as a metaphor for the emotional state. In 'The Price' we had a large hidden pool of stagnent water which can be seen as Angel's hidden desires and emotions. Interesting that it was Groo who found it.

All of which is probably stupid waffle but it's fun.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fascinating! Could that mean... -- Darby, 12:11:22 09/19/02 Thu

...That the fanged four is a sort of twisted version of the core Scoobies, plus Angel?

Darla, the assertive but closed-off blonde reflection of Buffy? (Do we need to get Buffy pregnant? Volunteers...?)

Spike, the irreverent, loyal, lost-in-the-simple-concepts dark version of Xander?

Dru, the spindly contributor of non-sequiturs whose special abilities the others sort of don't understand, but use anyway? The wallflower of the group who turns out more powerful and ambitious than any of them...a more skewed version of Willow in a universe where we had already seen a vamped Willow?

I really like the window thing, too...got something new to look for now...

- Darby
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Fascinating! Could that mean... -- Slain, 15:22:53 09/20/02 Fri

Very interesting idea, I agree. Perhaps at the root of the antagonism between Spike and Xander is that they recognise in each things in themselves they dislike. Spike's initial brooding after Buffy was similar to Xander's infatuation in Season 1, and both Spike and Xander seem to have a jealous nature.

I always felt that it was no accident that Dru wasn't in The Wish of Dopplegangland - the parallels between her and Vamp Willow would have seemed too sharp. While Dru is sometimes more dependent and childlike than Vamp Willow, the characters are very similar. And how different was Vamp Xander from Vamp Spike?

To me, Darla is what Buffy would be like if she'd been vamped in Season 1 - a coquettish, girlish exterior, with a monster lurking beneath. However, beyond that I don't see a parallel - perhaps the similarities are mostly in Angel's mind.
[> [> [> Re: The Lolita act? -- Dead Soul, 10:11:31 09/18/02 Wed

I have to say that several times during S3, Fred really squicked me. I know that the actress is in her 20's, but with the combination of hair, wardrobe and childish voice/mannerisms, she sometimes looked younger than Dawn. Gave me actual physical yuck shudders.

Yet I love the character - the way she rambles and non sequiturs and figures things out and always looks for the best in people and tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and is not-on-purpose funny and I like her and Gunn together, just every so often a certain scene would catch me sideways when there were too many childish elements juxtaposed against adult/romantic elements and I would, no other word for it, squick.

Dead (yet also made uncomfortable by Dawn kissage during ATW even before I knew he was a vamp) Soul
[> [> [> [> Yup, that's what my friend picked up on. -- Rufus, 15:49:09 09/18/02 Wed

It was the combination of dress and voice(not all the time though) that did grate at me a bit. I know that the actors playing the roles are about the same age, and that Fred has moments when she surprises people, but I understand she is a bit fragile and her character will change just like all of the others have.
[> [> [> Re: The Lolita act?,,,,<g> -- Rufus, 15:45:56 09/18/02 Wed

Got your attention didn't I.....the term Lolita came from another poster and it was a comment of how childlike Fred can act. I like Fred and Gunn together......but I do find that they seem to be holding back on the relationship a bit...meaning I don't see that much passion between them. They have many differences...one being Fred thinks in terms of numbers and can go on quite the tangent when she starts thinking in a loop, and Gunn gets right to the point and may not be a guy with letters after his name, but he can see some things the others miss cause they are overthinking the situation. I have to wonder what type of character will slowly evolve from the girl in a cave in Pylea?
[> [> [> [> Re: The Lolita act?,,,,<g> -- Miss Edith, 04:13:17 09/20/02 Fri

Well the actress says they see Fred as younger and more naive than the other characters, presumedly she plays her as such. Cordy is as far as we know still only 21 so perhaps the actress felt the need to play up Fred's vunerability in order to have her appear younger than Cordy. Of course it doesn't make much difference as the actress playing Cordy does look older, particularly following her haircut, and they are careful not to confirm her characters age on- screen. How old is Fred meant to be?
[> [> [> [> [> Fred is at least 23 or 24 -- Scroll, 08:56:50 09/20/02 Fri

Fred must be at least 2 or 3 years older than Cordelia. Since she moved to L.A. to study to be a physicist (presumably at UCLA?) before she got sucked into Pylea, we can estimate she is about 23 or 24. Even if she got sucked into Pylea at age 18 (first year university?), she spent 5 years (in Earth time) in Pylea. I'm not going to guess what the difference in time is between Pylea and Earth, but from other Hell-dimension episodes, we can assume that Pylea time moves faster than Earth time.
[> Re: Angel Season 4 hopes and questions -- yabyumpan, 06:19:25 09/18/02 Wed

Thanks for the summery Masq. My thoughts/hopes for S4:

Because of the cliff-hanger we were left with, I think the start of the season has got to focus on the hanging threads, which seem to me to be about Angel's relationship with those he loves:
Angel and Connor: no idea where they are going to go with this, are we going to get some sort of tentative bonding, Connor feeling some remourse when finding out that Angel didn't kill Holtz? Or are we going to get Connor the Destroyer with Angel being the one who has to stop him from destroying mankind? Could go either way, maybe we'll get both. For me, this is the most interesting relationship to be explored and the one I'm most looking forward to. Apart from the whole'tragic greek myth' feel to it, DB and VK IMO work really well together, all their scenes so far have been very compelling.

Angel and Cordy: I must admit, I do love this ship and have seen the buildup since the end of S2. That said, I actually don't mind if it doesn't happen on the show as long as we get a reasonable explaination of why it isn't. I can get my C/A shippy goodness from fanfic and Ijust know that if they do actually get together on the show, it's all gonna end in tears, why would I wish that on my favorite couple?
I agree with Masq, that there's got to be more to Cordy's ascending lark than meets the eye. My only grip with S3 was the way her demonization was handled, I hope they do better with her story in S4.

Angel and Wesley: This is more of a problem for me. I could hardly bare to watch Wesley at the end of last season, even now, just the thought of him makes me angry so he's obviously pushing a lot of my buttons! I'm really not interested in 'DarkWesley'. If ME actually explore his mindset i.e. his early childhood abuse, his relationship with the WC and show him coming to some sort of awareness then I'll watch him but if we just get more self-pitying and no show of remourse or an apology, then I'll just be hitting the Fast Farward button again.
I would like to see a reconciliation between Angel and Wesley, I liked the friendship they had, although I very much doubt it will ever go back to the way it was. I was struck in 'the Price' when Cordy forced Angel's feeing out into the open at the begining, that Wesley's betrayal seemed to hurt him almost as much a Connor being taken. (I can't get to psyche's site at the moment so I don't have the exact quote) Angel has had two real friends in 250 years, Cordelia and Wesley, and now he's lost one of them, that must be a huge blow for him. I can see the love that Angel feels for him constantly doing battle with the anger and hurt. I think the fact that Wesley is still alive says to me that Angel has at least started to forgive, as to whether he'll ever trust him again is another matter.

I'm really excited about the comming season. Although none of the above are spoilers I am a total spoiler whore and it looks like S4 is going to amazing

And I say, bring it on.....
[> I'm SO with you about Cordelia! -- vh, 07:05:41 09/18/02 Wed

[> Masq eh?? so no Groo Spec? -- neaux, 07:24:48 09/18/02 Wed

maybe I missed it... did you not put anything about Groo in there?
[> [> Re: Masq eh?? so no Groo Spec? -- Masq, 09:26:47 09/18/02 Wed

Since I'm spoiler-free, I'm assuming that the Groo character has been retired to Pylea never to be seen again.
[> [> [> (sheds a river of tears) -- neaux, 10:26:57 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> To Pylea? -- Vickie, 12:34:26 09/18/02 Wed

Did the show actually say that he was going back to Pylea? I had the impression he'd given up everything in Pylea and had nothing to return for, let alone a way to return.

Added pathos to his departure, for me. Was I wrong?
[> [> [> [> Stuck on Earth, political refugee -- Scroll, 12:41:34 09/18/02 Wed

Yeah, I think it's implied that Groo could never go back to Pylea because of political unrest (he's kinda like a political refugee). Not to mention lack of portals. So yeah, I felt so bad for him in "Tomorrow". We should send him up the coast to Sunnydale. He could at least help Buffy with the patrolling, give her a night off once in a while. Groo and Anya could commiserate over the fate of being demons in love, stuck in a human world.
[> [> [> [> [> oooh, Groo and Buffy? -- Vickie, 13:28:56 09/18/02 Wed

Now there's a possibility. Groo: handsome, honorable, brave, preternaturally strong fighter, champion for good in his own right.

I like it. Which means ME won't do it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I just have the horrible feeling Buffy wouldn't be attracted to him. -- cjl, 13:38:57 09/18/02 Wed

a) What does that say about me; and
b) What does that say about the way Buffy has been portrayed?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why is it horrible? -- shadowkat, 07:30:18 09/19/02 Thu

I'm not attracted to Groo. Fred wasn't.
Cordy was, well sort of, but Cordy likes big hulking football player types. Buffy likes a bit more of a poet in her man, some darkness/mystery, and someone who is willing to let her fight. People who want to protect her - tee her off. Groo was into the whole - I'm going to save you my Princess. You stand back over there, while I do it. It annoyed Cordy at times and I doubt Buffy would have tolerated it - she barely tolerated it in Riley and Angel.
Can't say I blame her. Wouldn't have tolerated it much better myself.

It says nothing horrible about Buffy and tons about Groo. The character just wasn't developed. What do we know about him?

Hmmm: big hulking warrior guy with heart of gold and apparently very small brain. Although he began to show promise in Tomorrow. Was beginning to see a little depth there, a little insight, a little brain activity. But in typical ME fashion...just as a minor character gets interesting - off he goes - gallumphing into the sunset.

Sorry, found Groo more interesting fighting beside Wes and Gunn than as a love interest. He was as Cordy so accurately described him: a big fluffy puppy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think you're underestimating Groo.... -- cjl, 09:55:14 09/19/02 Thu

"Groo was into the whole - I'm going to save you my Princess. You stand back over there, while I do it. It annoyed Cordy at times and I doubt Buffy would have tolerated it - she barely tolerated it in Riley and Angel. Can't say I blame her. Wouldn't have tolerated it much better myself."

Groo did the whole "Stand back Princess" bit because he didn't feel Cordelia was ready to defend herself in battle. He obviously changed his mind about this towards the end, because in The Price and other late-stage Groo eps, they're both in the thick of it with nary a peep from our Pylean knight. I'm sure if Groo encountered Buffy, Faith, and any of the other ass-kicking ladies of Sunnydale, he'd fight alongside them as equals. He's a warrior; he wants to win the fight. Life-and-death battles have no place for male pride.

And he's not stupid--or at least, not as stupid as we thought he was. He developed some much-needed snark near the end, and I got the impression he was annoyed that Angel's moodiness put the team in a bad tactical position just as much as he was jealous of Cordy's wandering affections. With a bit more seasoning, the Grooster could be a good leader himself.

And as for Buffy's taste in men--you nailed it. Buffy wants the darkness and mystery, along with a touch of the poet. Groo is neither dark nor mysterious, and Buffy would probably be bored stiff. I just think darkness and mystery are overrated in a partner, if the poetry is there--and Groo, I think, has the poetry.

But...the heart wants what it wants...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think you're underestimating Groo.... -- shadowkat, 10:15:33 09/19/02 Thu

"And as for Buffy's taste in men--you nailed it. Buffy wants the darkness and mystery, along with a touch of the poet. Groo is neither dark nor mysterious, and Buffy would probably be bored stiff. I just think darkness and mystery are overrated in a partner, if the poetry is there--and Groo, I think, has the poetry."

Nope sorry don't see the poetry. It's probably just personal tast and therefore irrelevant. But Groo bored me to the extent I could barely watch him. I couldn't like him and believe me I tried. But every word or action of his caused my eyes to roll. (Of course I didn't like Pylea either.) The episodes that focused on him, I didn't like and paid little attention to. I would have to say without a shadow of doubt every male character on both shows in the history of both shows, including Forrest (although Adam and the MAyor would be stretching things) would be more interesting paired with Buffy than Groo. Groo reminded me of Cordy's other boyfriends prior to Xander - people who worshipped her but she couldn't have much of a conversation with.

sk (who is doing the happy snoopy dance that ME writes the show not fans and ME chose to write out Groo. Mutant Enemy does know what they are doing far better than we do ;-) )
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Groo has always struck me as a modern incarnation of Hal Foster's Prince Valiant... -- cjl, 10:53:48 09/19/02 Thu

Perhaps on the very first leg of his long and illustrious career: a bit naive, but with a good heart--a gentle soul in a warrior's body. In years ahead, he will be faced with many crushing disappointments and defeats, but he'll learn from them, and become more worldly and wiser. Eventually, he'll be ready to return to Pylea and lead his world into a new age the way he was probably always meant to do.

These days, Prince Valiant is definitely an acquired taste. I can understand why people saw Groo in Angel S2 with the page boy haircut and the anachronisitc speech patterns and dismissed him out of hand. I don't know...maybe he reminded me of a figure out my boyhood comic book days, but I smiled a little at his two-dimensionality and cut him a little slack. The character only got better in S3, and I really want to see more of him if Joss and crew can find a proper place and time...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Groo as Cordelia. -- Darby, 14:48:44 09/19/02 Thu

I thought Groo's arc paralleled Cordy's original arc - seems something pretty straightforward at first - hunky, noncerebral fightin' man vs rich high school queen bee - and, as we get to know him, shows emotional layers that increase our empathy for him. I was just getting really interested in him when they tossed him. Too bad - once fully acclimated, he, more than any of the others, could have really challenged Angel's position in the group, more than the token amount he did previously.

- Darby, also liking Groo the semi-obscure comics reference.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Groo undestands being an outsider... -- Scroll, 10:53:34 09/19/02 Thu

I'm not going to bother arguing for a Buffy/Groo pairing cuz it's just not gonna happen! But I do feel that Groo has much to offer beyond being a sweet, but puppyish, doof.

Groo was born different from everyone else in his family. As he grew up, he began to look more and more like a "cow", a slave. He was looked down on, considered inferior, was often ostracised from society. He was an outcast, alone, believing himself to be tainted and unwanted because of his physical appearance. He became suicidal and took on all those challenges as a way to get himself killed while gaining some measure of respect. (Sounds a lot like a certain bloody awful poet, actually.) But to his surprise, he won those challenges and became Groosalug, the Brave and Undefeated. Then the Pylean priests took over his life, manipulating him as a way to control the throne. But in the end, Groo's love and loyalty to Cordy helped him to overcome the priests' propoganda and defy them to save Lorne's life.

I think Groo understands what it's like to be a freak of nature, and how it feels to be a pawn for a bureaucratic organisation (Buffy/Kendra/Faith - the Council, Riley - the Initiative?). He's a stranger lost in a strange land, and yeah, I guess not everyone will be drawn to his puppy-dog act, but I am! Groo Lovers Unite!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Is your acronym GLU? -- ponygirl, 11:48:20 09/19/02 Thu

I found Groo very annoying at first but his increasing snarkiness towards the end made him far more appealing than the puppydog act. There was a definitely a glimmer of depth behind those eyes, and I for one would be glad to see him back on AtS, where everyone underestimates him. Groo provides an interesting dilemma for all the would-be champions out there, what happens when the battles are won, and the world is saved? I feel pretty bad for the guy, he did everything he was supposed to do and what was his reward?

Talking about impossible ships, I like the idea of Groo/Kendra. For all the reasons you mention, and their by the book methods and more formal attitudes would mesh. Plus Groo could certainly be respectful enough to get past Kendra's "no boys" Watcher. Perhaps in some alternate universe...
[> [> [> [> [> [> Grooving on Groo/Buffy -- Scroll, 13:41:37 09/18/02 Wed

Probably will never ever happen, but it would be nice for Buffy to finally meet a really nice guy who also could understand her darker impulses (Groo may be a gentleman, but he's also a half-demon warrior). Of course, Groo may have to grow up a little (the way Anya did), but I think our happy- to-be-alive Buffy could take on the challenge of showing Groo the ropes.

Maybe I'm a fluff lover at heart, after all, despite everything I said about Angel/Cordy in my post below. Want more Groo! Want more Lorne! Want Buffy happy! Want Groo happy! More happy ships! (hehe)
[> [> [> [> [> [> They already have-Buffy and Riley. -- Arethusa, 13:46:37 09/18/02 Wed

And it didn't work. Spike was almost right-Buffy needs a man who understands and is not repelled by the "monster" in her. Groo wants to worship his Lady. He would never be able to give Buffy what she needs.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I want Groo/Anya - she could use some being worshipped right about now -- Dead Soul, 13:50:22 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Monster in Buffy? -- Vickie, 13:55:28 09/18/02 Wed

With Psyche's site unavailable, I can't go looking for your quote. I don't remember anyone ever saying there was monster in Buffy, just darkness. I recall the "wants some monster in her man" line, but that's different.

Since Groo admired Cordy for her demonization for the sake of the cause, I would expect he'd admire Buffy for whatever darkness aids her own Slayerness. I agree he's probably too nice to attract Buffy. I would sure find it fun to watch, though.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: They already have-Buffy and Riley. -- alcibiades, 20:40:24 09/18/02 Wed

And it didn't work. Spike was almost right-Buffy needs a man who understands and is not repelled by the "monster" in her.

No Spike was right. She needs a man with some monster in him.

Last year, he was a monster with a lot of man in him.

This year, with the soul, he'll be a man with some monster in him.

He had the right ingredients. He needed to correct the balance.

And he had to realize he loved Buffy enough to sacrifice his narcissism for her.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly. Well put. -- shadowkat, 07:32:54 09/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Gruffy?! Should be banned for the name alone! -- ponygirl shuddering, 13:53:28 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Could be Boo (worse and worse) -- Vickie, 13:59:03 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Nope, don't know anything different than you do. My bad. -- Masq, 12:43:34 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Scooby Dooby Groo: a proposed first meeting -- cjl, 18:23:38 09/19/02 Thu

(Time: somewhere in the middle of S7. The place: just outside of Sunnydale Cemetary. Buffy, Willow and Xander are approaching the front gate, when a tall, well-muscled, stylishly dressed, sword-wielding assailant springs out of nowhere and menacingly approaches the trio.)

BUFFY: Xander?
XANDER: The three-iron?
BUFFY: You got it.

(XANDER reaches into the weapons bag and hands her a dazzling sword with a gleaming black blade and a solid jade handle. BUFFY and the mystery man circle each other as WILLOW and XANDER back away, out of the field of battle. The two combatants come together and trade lightning fast strikes, to no effect. The mystery man charges in a beserker assault, and their two swords lock together. The taller man tries to use superior leverage to squash BUFFY into submission, but she easily throws him off. He swipes at her legs, but she leaps over the blade. He lunges; she grabs him by the forearm and flings him five feet into the cemetary gate. He bounces off, stunned. Then he smiles. He plunges his blade into the grass, and then, both hands on the hilt, drops to one knee and bows his head in supplication to BUFFY. XANDER is ready to leap into the fray, but BUFFY waves him off.)

BUFFY: Xander--no!
GROO: You are the One.
BUFFY: Excuse me?
GROO: You are the warrior I have been seeking. The Destroyer of Demons, the Guardian at the Gates of the Netherworld, the light of righteousness in the midst of Hell itself. The Chosen One...the Slayer.
BUFFY: Wow. You make me sound...really impressive. Uh, that's me, I guess. And who, may I say, is seeking?
GROO: In my world, I was called Groosalugg, the Brave and Undefeated.
WILLOW (staring): Those clothes...
GROO: For many months, I have been wandering your lands, lost and despairing, searching for a battle worthy of my blade. Then, I heard whispers of a great conflict approaching on the mouth of hell, and I knew my quest was at an end.
XANDER (quietly, to Willow): At last--the Most Holy Grail! (WILLOW glares at him.) What?
BUFFY: Well...I appreciate the thought. But you know, you could've called and said you were coming over. You didn't have to do the whole "trial by fire" thing.
WILLOW: I know I've seen that jacket...
GROO: Forgive me. I am still somewhat strange to your ways. But I had to be sure. And you are everything he said you would be.
BUFFY: He? (Groo winces. A fatal slip. Buffy presses.) Whoís "he"?!
GROO: Angel. I have heard many tales of your exploits from Angel, Wesley and my Pr...Cordelia. I promised him I would not tell you of our friendship. Coming here was my idea-- but he said you would think he is interfering in your life.
BUFFY (a little stunned): Angel.
WILLOW (light bulb): Now I remember! Buffy, Cordelia told me about this guy! Told me--well, I-I can't really use the words she did because it would be, uh, kind of embarrassing- -but she said he was a good guy, and he really knew how to use a sword. Didn't nearly do him justice, though...

(BUFFY sees the pain in Grooís eyes when Willow mentions Cordelia.)

BUFFY: Donít worry. I wonít tell. (Pause.) You and Cordelia were pretty tight, huh?
GROO: "Tight." Yes. But not as "tight" as I would have believed.
WILLOW (to Xander): Cordelia broke up with HIM?
BUFFY: What happened?
GROO: I would...rather not say.
WILLOW: Always knew the girl was nuts. (Xander glares at her.) What?
BUFFY: Guys--Scooby huddle.

(Xander and Willow walk around Groo for a team meeting.)

WILLOW: Aw, Buffy, can we keep him?
XANDER: You know, Will, you are seriously damaging your lesbian street cred...
WILLOW (mock annoyance): Sh.
BUFFY: No! No more picking up stray warriors! Geez, you think we would have learned with the last one.
XANDER: Buffy, no offense, but the way things are going, weíre probably going to need all the muscle we can get.
BUFFY: Thatís easy for you to say. Where am I going to keep him, the broom closet? Iím still not exactly rolling in dough, and Prince Valiant over there doesnít look like heís familiar with the concept of "rent."

(WILLOW and BUFFY look at XANDER.)

XANDER: Ohhh no no no no no no--the roommate thing? Not gonna happen! Last one I had didnít work out too well, remember?
WILLOW: Xander, youíre the one who keeps saying weíll need an army. We gotta start somewhere.

(XANDER looks over at Groo, who is still bent over in supplication, but keeping one hopeful eye on the proceedings.)

XANDER (sighs): Oh all right.

(GROO springs to his feet, sheaths his sword, walks over to the gang, and claps Xander on the shoulder.)

GROO: Thank you. I am truly sorry about the inconvenience. But you will find that I am excellent with household chores.
XANDER: Glad to hear it--(struggles) Grooser... Groober... weíre going to have do something about the name.
GROO: My friends said calling me "Groo" was easier.
XANDER: Really? Cool! I love that comic.
BUFFY: You guys get settled. Come over to the house later, and weíll talk a little strategy.
GROO: I hope I can be worthy of your trust.
BUFFY: I donít think thatíll be a problem.

(GROO and XANDER slowly walk off.)

XANDER: Cordelia, huh? Believe me, fella, I sympathize.
GROO: You do?
XANDER: Does she...ever talk about me? Xander?
GROO: Ah! Xander Harris. This is you? The young man with great bravery and aquatic skills?
XANDER: "Aquatic sk--" Oh, the swim team! Yeah, you got it!
GROO: I would...rather not say.
XANDER (groans): Oh, MAN...
[> [> [> [> [> LOL! How I wish Joss would do this! -- Scroll, 09:00:45 09/20/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> LOL! I loved it! -- Just George, 09:07:05 09/20/02 Fri

[> Angel & Connor, Angel & Wesley (no spoilers) -- Scroll, 08:01:46 09/18/02 Wed

I'll admit I haven't been very good at avoiding spoilers so far, but I'm only going to list what I want to see happen this season (no spoilers). Please be advised that I'm probably waaay off!

Angel/Connor: Not reconcile until at least half way through the season; Connor to find out (through Justine?) that Angel didn't kill Holtz.

Wesley: To stay dark and angry, but still be a force for good (Rogue Demon Hunter?); to sleep with Lilah some more, then dump her with an appropriately scathing remark; to be the one to actually become friends with Connor; to apologise to Angel/Connor/Lorne (but not Gunn/Fred/Cordy, they don't deserve it); to reconcile with Angel some time before mid season?

Cordelia: What the frell is up with her? Don't know, don't care. But agree with the rest of the world about her hair. Okay, I do care a smidgen. I want Queen C back! I want a strong woman who is compassionate but snarky. Who was that girl in "Tomorrow"? I still maintain she was body- snatched...

Angel/Cordy: Must die horrible death. If ME insists on this story line, I want to see them actually address the curse, instead of act like the loophole got fixed while Angel was in Tibet between Seasons 2 and 3.

Gunn/Fred: No more pancake kisses. To be confused and lost because they're all alone, but still struggling to run Angel Investigations.

Lorne: To come back to L.A. and open Caritas again!

Anyone else want to weigh in?
[> [> Oooh, forgot Groo! -- Scroll, 08:10:28 09/18/02 Wed

Forgot about Groo! I actually liked the guy; in fact I liked him way more than Cordy by the end of "Tomorrow". Here's a real gentleman with honour, courage, honesty, sensitivity, subtleness, a sense of humour, and an amazing build, who worships the ground you walk on - and you pass him over for a vampire that, last time you checked, had the emotional and physical availability of a cobra snake?!

Groo is the real Champion here, ladies and gentlemen, and I think he and Lorne should both come back. Groo makes an excellent foil for Angel, and Mark Lutz has amazing chemistry with Andy Hallett. We need more Groo!
[> [> [> Re: Oooh, forgot Groo! -- yabyumpan, 12:13:51 09/18/02 Wed

"Forgot about Groo! I actually liked the guy; in fact I liked him way more than Cordy by the end of "Tomorrow". Here's a real gentleman with honour, courage, honesty, sensitivity, subtleness, a sense of humour, and an amazing build, who worships the ground you walk on"

Why would any one want to be with someone who worships the ground you walk on? (been there,done that and it sucks)Someone who calls you Princess and expects you to act like one, waiting for him to rescue you and tells you off when you defend yourself.(The Price). This is not someone who sees the real you but a projected image of who thy think you are and should be.

That's why I like Cordy with Angel, it's a relationship built on a long friendship and everyday sticky, grimey reality. There's no unrealistic expectations, no 'worshiping', just complete acceptance of who they both are, the good and the bad. It's a relationship that I think is unique in whendonverse. There's no grand passion (which I think is why people don't see chemistry), no great mythic 'love', just the gradual, growing feelings of two far from perfect collegues and friends.

I agree, Groo is a real Hero and Champion and deserves and a real Heroine and Princess who he can worship and rescue, I hope he finds one. Personally, he just made my skin crawl.
[> [> [> [> You're right... -- Scroll, 12:33:09 09/18/02 Wed

I think the Angel/Cordy friendship/psuedo-romance really is unique in the Whedonverse. And if they'd continued with the tone set in Heartthrob, I might've been able to get on board. But what we ended up with was Kye-rumption, Moira, destiny, lack of free will, and Cordy needing a vision of her future self in order to get that she was in love. That's what I hate about Angel/Cordy, not the acceptance and comfort and honesty, which I think is beautiful.

I just like Groo. But I don't like Cordy/Groo. You're right, they're totally unsuited for each other. But I still want Groo back! hehe Maybe Lorne/Groo?
[> Agree with Masq and Scrolls specs -- shadowkat, 09:38:48 09/18/02 Wed

1. Wesely/Lilah and Weseley/Angel - I believe this is going
to be a major arc next season. Wesely being outside the group is vital. First I think he may be the one who
not only frees Angel but takes on Angelus, if we see Angelus next year. Rumor has it we will. I'm unspoiled,
so don't know.

Like Masq and Scroll and Rufus - I really want to see dark Wes explored more. See tons of interesting potential there.
And I must admit that I love the Lilah/Wes combo. Best chemistry on Angel since well Angel/Darla. No one else on the show appears to have any IMHO.

2. What Connor/Angel relationship will be? How will Connor handle a dark Angel? How will dark Angel (Angelus) handle Connor?

I agree these two are a lot alike. Looking forward to seeing their relationship explored. Particularly considering both have serious daddy issues.

Also interested in seeing how Justine figures into it.
I still think they should do something with Justine and Weseley...but have my doubts they'll pursue it. (Was I the only one who saw sparkage there?)

Want to see how Connor interacts with the others as well, particularly Wes and to a smaller extent Cordelia.

3. Cordelia. Have to admit she is not one of my favorite characters. What little I loved about her seemed to be sucked out by Tomorrow. Prior to Birthday she still had some of her old snarky spunk. That said, I'm convinced she'll return as snarky Queen Cordy. I think Skip tricked her - seducing her through her infamous pride/vanity.

Don't really care one way or the other about the C/A ship.
IMHO the actors have 0 chemistry and are sort of boring together. But I have a sneaking suspicion the C/A pairing is far from over.... (Clearly chemistry is a subjective thing - since there are lots of people who like the C/A ship.)

I don't think Cordy will be the one who causes Angel to become Angelus. I think they are doing something else. Just not clear what.
But whatever it is - it will probably effect the ship and I seriously doubt the ship will last past Season 4, assuming they resume it.

Agree with everyone else - please bring Cordy back with a better hair style.

4. I think Groo is gone for good. Lorne is definitely returning in some capacity. I think W&H are going to figure in and possibly have something to do with Angelus' return.
Also believe Wes will debate joining W&H as a sort of double- agent and will be killing demons on his own.
The rogue demon hunter he wanted to be before he joined Angel and Company.

Well that's it. Back to work (sigh) SK
[> [> Eep, I think some spoilers in sk's post -- Sc, 10:04:15 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> Angel and Cordy -- yabyumpan, 10:33:22 09/18/02 Wed

I'm curious, many people on this board have expressed a dislike of the Angel/Cordy ship and I'd like to know the reasons. Not wanting to get into any sort of shipper war but as i said above, this is the one ship in whendonverse that I totally get, so I'm just curious as to why there seems to be so much oppostion to it here.
[> [> [> [> Why I can't get into Angel/Cordy (kinda rant-y) -- Scroll, 11:21:10 09/18/02 Wed

I'll admit right from the get-go that I was a huge B/A fan, and to some extent, still am. I loved their relationship, their chemistry, and their pathos. That being said, I don't hate B/R or B/S. I don't hate Angel/Kate, Angel/Faith, Angel/Darla (actually quite fond of this ship), or Angel/Lorne/Wesley/Lindsey/Lilah, etc. In fact, I find all these ships interesting and fun, though I don't invest myself into them that heavily (except Angel/Wes which I still wish Joss had the guts to do). The reason why I can't believe in Angel/Cordy is that I can't believe in it.

Up to the end of Season 2 (and even in bits of Season 3), I still strongly felt the A/C vibe to be brother/sisterly. Obviously this is JMO; lots of people saw romantic chemistry. But considering how often Angel, Cordy, Wes, etc. make comments to being "family", and the very strong "family" vibe carried over from Season 1 and 2, I still get squicked at the idea of Angel/Cordy. Just like I get squicked at Xander/Dawn or even Xander/Buffy (remember DreamBuffy's 'big brother' affection in "Restless".

When I see Angel/Cordy, I remember Angel/Dru. Maybe I'm the only one, but I think it's there. This would actually be quite daring of ME, and if it's on purpose, maybe I could get into a darker A/C ship.

In Heartthrob, Angel and Cordy had a "best friends" chemistry that could've easily evolved into something more. I could see Angel, with Buffy dead, wanting to move on and seeing Cordy as a mature, compassionate woman whom he could love. I can believe that this is largely unconscious. But once Fred opened her mouth and said the dreaded word, "Kye- rumption", all hope for me believing in A/C was gone. Instead of forging a new path -- good friendship evolving into romantic love -- they fell back on the tried and true "oh, it's destiny!" and "Champions fated to be together!" Even if we put down Fred's amnesia (3 eps after Cordy explains why Angel can never get involved with a woman AKA The Curse, and Fred thinks it would be just peachy- keen if Angel and Cordy were in lurve?) as leftover insanity, there's still Angel and Cordy (and Wes and Gunn and Lorne) who all know perfectly well that Angel and true love just don't get on well together.

But no. Sometime between "Reprise" and "Offspring", some gypsies or the PTB or Mary Sue must've dropped by (off screen) and told Angel he'd suffered enough for murdering half of Europe and deserved to have love now.

If forced, I might admit after "Birthday" (which in my logic actually argues against Cordy being in real love with Angel) that Cordy possibly has a glimmer of romantic feeling for Angel. I could also admit Xander might still has a glimmer of romantic feeling for Buffy. But what I don't get is why Cordy in "Tomorrow" -- once Groo and a vision of herself have kindly informed her that she is in love with Angel -- does not cringe at the very possibility that Angel might love her back and feel perfect happiness. (I'm not saying that Angel being in love is enough to cause perfect happiness. Hell, if witnessing his son's miraculous birth isn't enough to send his soul flying, I don't know what will.) But the possibility is there; everyone can see that it's there, but nobody addresses it beyond Fred poking Angel with a stick because he's humming! (I have faith that all this ball-dropping actually leads to arcs in S4, so I'll forgive it for now.)

So maybe I don't hate the idea of Angel/Cordy as much as I hate how Angel/Cordy is written. The writers wanted Angel and especially Cordy to be clueless about their own powerful emotions -- I get what they were trying to do. I just think it failed in execution. JMHO, of course. Maybe I'm too conditioned to expect doom and gloom from Joss, and just couldn't understand why fluffy Angel/Cordy was being proposed as a Good Thing. (Btw, even though they're separated in "Tomorrow", it's all through external factors. With no internal fears or regrets and with an attitude of "Curse, What Curse?", I consider this 'ship totally fluffy. And Angel and fluffy just Does Not Work.)

Eep, looking back I realise I've just unloaded on you for asking a legitimate question. Sorry, yabyumpan! These are just my issues with Season 3, because I really think it was the most powerful Angel season so far. Loved it way more than Buffy, actually. Because at the end of the day, the true strength of Angel is dark, tragic, film- noir season-long arcs.

Scroll
[> [> [> [> [> Hmmm...a darker A/C relationship (wild, unsubstantiated S4 spec) -- cjl, 11:59:27 09/18/02 Wed

Are you talking about Angel and Dark Cordy, or....

Cordy/Angelus?

I find the latter monstrously interesting. Suppose Angelus comes back and DOES see Cordy as a possible new and improved Dru (less insanity, more snark) and tries to recruit her for evil. Angelus could make snarky comments about her previous boyfriends; snarky comments about her hairstyle(s); snarky comments about her friends. He'll make disgusting, lascivious comments about Cordy's body and try to do the whole psychological torture thing. It'll be Cordy's worst nightmare: yes, it's all about her, but not the way she usually wants it. (And for that matter, Angelus will tell her that she loves it, anyway.)

It would be a way of unleashing Angel's carnal thoughts about Cordy and scaring the audience sh**less at the same time.

I'm in!

I'm shipping Cordy/Angelus for S4.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Standard Potentially Spoilery Speculation Disclaimer For AtS S4 -- Arethusa, 12:11:44 09/18/02 Wed

Cordelus! aka "The fans want C/A? We'll give them C/A! Bwahahaha!"
[> [> [> [> [> [> Oooh now that is interesting. Count me in too. -- shadowkat, 12:18:29 09/18/02 Wed

Although I'm like Arethusa - don't tend to ship for Ats.
Like the friendships more.

But the dark ships of Wesley/Lilah
and Cordy/Angelus would be fun.

Go Angelus.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Er, not quite what I meant =) -- Scroll, 12:21:49 09/18/02 Wed

...But hey, if it means me actually not rolling my eyes at the TV, I'm all for it.

By "darker" I meant a relationship that had actual problems inherent because of the two characters involved. Angel and Cordy have tons of issues (vampire, curse, half-demon glowy thing, being in separate dimensions) but nobody seems to even consider these when talking about Angel/Cordy shipping (and I don't mean A/C fans, but the actual characters on the show and, by extension, the writers). A mostly fluffy relationship would be Willow/Oz which, while Oz was a werewolf, didn't focus on this very much. Maybe I just expect more for Angel (king of angst) because I simply can't see him in any relationship that is fluffy. Still, I'm crossing my fingers for a really good explanation for all the ball-dropping in Season 4.
[> [> [> [> [> What Scroll said! -- Masq, 12:08:28 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Poss spoilery for Tomorrow -- yabyumpan, 13:05:52 09/18/02 Wed

Scroll, I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I also hated the whole Kyrumption/moira stuff. For me, what I really like about A/C is that it 'isn't' some great 'mythic', destiny thing. It's the gradual realisation of a friendship becoming something more.
I don't think the whole issue of the curse was dropped, infact I think Cordelia is very aware of it, hence the Eunuch comments and saying how no woman could tempt him in 'Couplet'. I think she put a lot of effort into de- sexulizing him in her mind, to keep him unavailable. But she also in the same episode, created a clone who she could com- shuck with.
There is stuff in the shooting script of 'Tomorrow' which was sadly dropped which actually had her addressing it. I can't actually get to psyche's site now (does anyone know when it will be back up?), but it was a scene where she's deciding what to wear to meet Angel and one of the things she puts on is a heavy coat because they'll never be able to have sex any way so what's the point in dressing up.
I don't see that Angel feels "he'd suffered enough for murdering half of Europe and deserved to have love now" any more than he did with Buffy and he probably wouldn't have pursued it if Cordelia hadn't rung him. In WITW, he's still full of doubts when talking to Lorne. I think in 'Tomorrow' he was high on Connor, Lorne had told him that Cordy felt the same and he allowed himself to have hope.
My theory about Cordy's assension is that their meeting would have given him that 'perfect happiness' moment and so the PTBs interveened. I agree that that episode came across as 'fluffy' in someways, but I think it was to give us the 'Tragedy'. I don't see C/A as a couple 'fluffy' at all, they know each other far to well to go with any extreme soppyness. I'm sure that ME will make them suffer loads, if they actually get together at all. I'm sure the evilness that is ME will be throwing many an obstacle in their path if they do, which is why part of me would be happy if they don't get together!
I loved S3 but I do think that ME tried to throw to many things in the pot, some of which just didn't cook as well as it should. Hopefully S4 will deal with some of these dropped balls, I can't actually see S4 going anywhere near anyone having a good time of it for quite a while, so I don't think you'll have to worry to much about 'fluffy' anybody.

thanks for responding by the way. :-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Poss spoilery for Tomorrow -- Scroll, 13:21:54 09/18/02 Wed

You're welcome, and I see that we actually don't disagree on many points. Much as I loved the Connor story line, I really think everything else suffered from lack of time to properly tell the stories. I do trust Joss to clarify all things confusing me two weeks from now (counting the days!) and you're probably right that nobody's going to be perfectly happy while Connor is running around, thinking Angel killed Holtz.

While Angel/Cordy will never be one of my favourite ships, I think it has the potential to be interesting and feasible. Sometime soon. As long as Fred and Lorne never, ever, ever uses the words Kye-rumtion, Moira, or Champion, ever again!

Scroll
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Poss spoilery for Tomorrow -- acesgirl, 15:35:26 09/18/02 Wed

Oh, yabyumpan I agree with everything that you have posted and I wanted to let you know that you are not the only one who sees the Cordy/Angel relationship the way you do. The slow build up from friendship to love just works for me on so many levels and I was really hoping that ME was getting ready to explore a much more real to life relationship that is not based in angst and emotional torture but rather in equality and support. To each his own about chemistry between the actors but I see it and have since season 1.

Regarding the curse, I also don't understand why some people think that this is being swept under the rug. I think the curse is what holds Angel back from exploring any romantic feelings for anyone. That's why he has to be told by Fred that he might have feelings for Cordy. He cannot even allow himself the possibility because of the consequences. And its the same for Cordy. She knows they can never have a romantic or sexual relationship so she just shuts the thoughts out of her mind. We know that she's physically attracted to him, that was clear back in S1 of Btvs, but she was there when Angelus was tormenting Buffy & the scoobies. She doesn't want to go there in her mind, can't even think about it, its absurd, she does not have feelings for Angel, while at the same time she's making over Groo to look exactly like him and she's shunning Wesley to stand by him. I'm not saying that ME handled the storytelling the best that they could, but I just don't see the fingers in ears "la la la, what curse?" vibe that some people see. The curse is ever present, its the big fat white elephant in the lobby.

That's the Cordy & Angel ship that I see and the one I hope they explore. But I know that a lot of people disagree and I can understand that too. Sometimes, you just don't see a pairing and the thought of it is kind of yucky. Buffy/Xander fit this category for me - blech.
[> [> [> [> [> Let's rein in the rhetorical extravagence a bit, guys! -- leslie, 15:28:15 09/18/02 Wed

"...told Angel he'd suffered enough for murdering half of Europe..."

Okay, if Angel killed half of Europe, and Spike killed half of Europe, how is there anyone *left* over there? Factor in Darla and Dru's predations, and you're into them killing the unborn and even the twinkles in Daddy's eyes.

But seriously, folks, yes, they've been evil, but not *limitlessly* evil, and I think that has some relevence to how much redemption/atonement is necessary. Not in a letting- them-off-the-hook way, either--you start throwing around "murdering half of Europe" and it's just a faceless mass-- you limit it to who they actually killed, it's real people in real situations. Angel didn't kill half of Europe, but he wiped out entire families, and that's what's led to the whole Holz thing.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Fair enough, leslie... -- Scroll, 08:47:54 09/19/02 Thu

Yeah, I kinda noticed I was getting a bit flamboyant with the "half of Europe" thing (*sheepish grin*) but I was on a roll! What does math and actual birth rates have to do with anything!

Re: killing families. Maybe that's why A/C felt off to me. Here's Angel, ready to pursue a new relationship (albeit tentatively), while knowing he has a curse and having the "depravity of his sins" (i.e. murdering families) thrown in his face with Holtz around. I get that Angel is not allowing himself to brood as much, but you'd think seeing a guy whose family you killed, reinforcing the guilt and inciting the compassion that is part-and-parcel of having a soul, would remind you that - hey! You have a soul! It comes with a loophole! Maybe it's just a matter of preference, but I wish the writers had focused more on Angel's dealings with Holtz and less on pursuing a relationship Angel (as far as he knows) can never have.

Whether Angel has suffered enough, I have no answer for that. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Holtz would think he hasn't; Cordy, Wes, et al. would say he has. What does Angel think? I'd like to know. He probably won't feel entirely forgiven until he becomes human. Of course, not being forgiven won't hold him back from doing the right thing ("Epiphany"). Which I can at least appreciate. =)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Fair enough, leslie... -- leslie, 11:18:50 09/19/02 Thu

Yeah, the real reason Angel and Cordy feels off to me is that she's the only one in AI who *experienced* Angelus. I do think she's smart enough to have at least wondered just how impenetrable that line between Angel and Angelus is--and interestingly enough, she has never shown any attraction at all to "bad boys." But, if we are agreed that what is between Angel and Cordy is more of a brother/sister vibe than a lover vibe, and we think about Angel's general problem with families, well, if we were really evil, there might be some interesting incestuous possibilities to be explored....
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yup, I've said as much before! -- Scroll, 14:14:59 09/19/02 Thu

Angel/Cordy really reminds me of Angel/Drusilla. Sick and twisted, but there it is. After all, family blood is the sweetest, there's nothing else like it! Yeah, and I refuse to believe I'm the only one perverted enough to see hints of it lurking! =) ...Um, okay, backing off now before A/C shippers start hunting me down...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Could you elaborate? -- alcibiades, 14:58:45 09/19/02 Thu

Angel/Cordy really reminds me of Angel/Drusilla. Sick and twisted

... Don't see it yet.

Isn't Cordy more like Darla -- with that alpha female vibe going on, and the bitchiness and the love of clothes?

Fred seems more like Drusilla -- the long floaty hair, the impossible thinness, the strange bursts of insight and esotericism and isolation, her need to find protection, her love for Angel that quickly morphs into love for his junior associate, Gunn, an excellent fighter and a straightforward warrior type minus Angel's scary/kinky side.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I meant me "Sick and twisted" not A/C! Sorry... -- Scroll, 09:07:57 09/20/02 Fri

And you're probably right that Fred is more like Dru and Cordelia is more like Darla. Guess I was going for the shallow similarities of dark brown hair (which, now that I think about it, doesn't work anymore because Cordy has blonde hair... more's the pity!) But mostly I meant that I interpreted the Angel/Cordy vibe as brother/sister and not as lovers, so when Season 3 began to explicitly state that Angel was in love with Cordy, I was kinda squicked. Of course, YMMV. I know this is only my interpretation. Some people get squicked at Spike/Dawn, but I don't (as long as she's not 15!) so I can't really throw stones.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A/C and Incest -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:26:41 09/20/02 Fri

While the brother/sister vibe may make people become squickish, but I ask you to consider something I heard:

A tribe of American Aboriginals (can't remember the specific one) used to have a tradition where men and woman who weren't related were forbidden from meeting and speaking to each other. Because of this, it was not uncommon for brothers and sisters to marry, since that was pretty much the only way that someone could get to know their spouse before getting married.

Cordelia and Angel are in a similar situation. Neither can really just pick up someone to go on a date with, because their lives are just too weird to bring someone else into them. Angel has an extra-restriction in that he dares not go seeking dates (let alone love) because that can lead to sex, and sex leads to evil and leather pants. So, prevented from seeking out relationships, they turn their attention inwards to their Angel Investigations family. But, like in the tribe I mentioned, a sibling is someone a person is continually brought in contact with, is very familiar, and the boundaries keeping somone from pursuing a love life don't apply there. Hence predominantly sexless and loveless people like Angel and Cordelia are left with their sibling relationships to focus their urges on, creating a love with definite incestous overtones.
[> [> [> [> Re: Angel and Cordy (NO spoilers, promise) -- shadowkat, 12:14:18 09/18/02 Wed

"I'm curious, many people on this board have expressed a dislike of the Angel/Cordy ship and I'd like to know the reasons"

I think this is more a matter of personal taste than anything else. The one ship in the whedonverse that really works for me and turns me on - you probably despise. C'est la vie.

I don't hate C/A together. I just don't really care one way or another. Their romantic scenes seem silly as opposed to hot to me. So I well, didn't really watch them. Have yet
to really closely watch Birthday. Didn't really pay much attention to Cordy and Groo either. Just didn't interest me.

Logically? Yeah I guess they work. Tons in common. Similar coloring. Cordy feels like she's being punished and is vain and is proud and has daddy betrayle issues and a thing about money. Angel feels punished and is vain and is proud and is into clothes like Cordy. But it feels like Brother/Sister in a way. They have too much in common.

But if I was writing this? Yeah logically, I'd try to put them together. They certainly have the back history. The characters have the right amount of knowledge about each other. And the pairing probably should have riveted me like Buffy and Spike did. (The writers certainly meant it too) It didn't. Why? The actors. Charisma Chase in Waiting in The Wings looked like she wanted to flee the scene when Angel kissed her. She looked so completely uncomfortable and Boreanz had a similar awkward reaction. Didn't see any tension or desire or lust there, just discomfort and awkwardness. Now I don't know if the awkwardness was intended to create more tension or not - but it didn't work for me. Instead if made me want to flip channels out of embarrassment for the actors. No other pairing makes me feel that way. Don't know why this one did. But it does strike me as interesting that the network has never rerun the episode, it's one of the few i don't have on tape.

So to answer your question? It's the fact that the actors have no chemistry that really did it for me.

I also agree with a post that someone made some time ago
that the writers forced this one down our throat. Scroll
is write when he/she writes that kyreption did the ship in.
It did. Fred started going on about how Cordy and Angel were Champions and all this kyreption (sp?) business and I found myself suddenly rolling my eyes and thinking come on.
If they hadn't done that? I might have cared.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against the relationship. I just don't care. I'm more interested to see how and if both characters re-appear and what Wes does than if they get together.

Also as you can tell - I'm a lover of dark plots. Happy fluffy relationships bore me. It's why I prefer Angel and Btvs over say Seventh Heaven and Friends. To me the horrorifying aspects in relationships are far more interesting and real. (I have friends who won't watch Btvs and Angel b/c they only want to watch nice people and the happy stuff. As I said, personal taste.)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel and Cordy (NO spoilers, promise) -- Masq, 12:40:59 09/18/02 Wed

"The actors. Charisma Chase in Waiting in The Wings looked like she wanted to flee the scene when Angel kissed her. She looked so completely uncomfortable and Boreanz had a similar awkward reaction. "

I interpreted that as the characters being uncomfortable with being thrown into a sexual situation by the haunting of the room. I'm a Cordy-Angel Friendship shipper (think they make interesting friends to each other), so I saw that as two good friends of the opposite sex being forced into a romantic situation. Hence the awkward
[> [> [> [> [> [> I agree with you about WiTW, but overall, I'm with S'kat... -- cjl, 12:48:43 09/18/02 Wed

To me?

C/A friendship vibe = off the charts
C/A sexual vibe = car engine on a December morning in Buffalo

Of course, Angel could have all these hot 'n' bothered thoughts about Cordy and vice versa, but I don't see it in their interaction. It is, as 'kat said, more of a brother/sister relationship, IMO. So if Joss and crew are going to do C/A, they'll need a way to get those feelings out in the open. In a big way. (That's why I'm hoping for Angelus to come back and fixate on Cordy. That's one demon who always says what's on his mind. Heck, Cordy even admired that quality in him!)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Actually like C/A as friends. -- shadowkat, 13:11:22 09/18/02 Wed

Cordy/Angel FRIENDHSIP shipper as well. Love them as friends. They feel like brother/sister to me in the same way that Xander and Buffy do actually. And your interpretation of Waiting in the Wings actually works for me. Much better than the one that there was sexual tension.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Another C/A Friendship shipper -- Scroll, 13:31:55 09/18/02 Wed

I'm actually not a huge fan of romantic ships, especially after the fiascos of Season 6 Buffy and Season 3 Angel. I love the best-friends dynamic of Buffy/Willow/Xander and Angel/Cordy and Wes/Gunn. I miss them just hanging out, doing fun friend things. Whatever else anyone says about "Grave", it at least clarified the importance of friendship. Your friends are the ones who will be there for you when Joss rips apart your budding romance with the glee of a little boy ripping the wings off flies. Family/friends has always been the foundation of these two shows, and it's a pity romantic pairings are being used to tear friends apart. Well, makes for great drama, I suppose.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: WITW -- yabyumpan, 13:28:26 09/18/02 Wed

I agree with you, even as a massive C/A shipper, I hated this episode. I'm someone who does see loads of chemistry between the actors but JW somehow managed to make it disappear. That's not the only reason I hated it, I felt the whole thing was self indulgent and in parts, just crass. Lorne saying "we all know you have a thing for cheerleaders" just makes me cringe. It actually made me loose a lot of respect for Joss and I'm really not looking forward to him being more involved in S4, as he's said he's going to, now that DG has gone.

I also agree with the whole kyrumption/moira stuff, hated it. For me what's special about A/C is that it's based in everyday, grimey reality, not 'destiny'.

I also hope they don't go with the fluff, and if they keep to the true characterizations of both Angel and Cordy, I don't see how they can. There's just to much darkness and 'issues' for both of them.

Actually, on the A/C shipper board I go to (stranger things), there's pretty much universal agreement about all the things that have been mentioned here. We don't want Destiny or Fluff or papering over of the issues i.e. THE CURSE and most C/A fics that are written are pretty dark and angsty. If ME do go the Fluffy, curse,what curse? route, we'll be the ones that will be most disappointed!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: WITW -- Dead Soul, 14:33:29 09/18/02 Wed

WITW was the first AtS I ever saw and I almost decided to never watch another. I have still only seen it that once and I don't remember it well enough because I was so confused and put off at the time, to remember exactly what it was that curdled my whey, but I do remember being a little confused by the awkwardness between Cordy and Angel and being surprised that the scene didn't have at least a little zazazoo to it.

At that time I hadn't had a chance to see and enjoy their friendship, so now both the awkwardness and lack of zing are explained. The only romantic relationship I can see them in is the kind where she continues to call him on his sh*t and keeps him from being so self-absorbed. Yes, he's had some rough stuff happen lately, but I think it's been her Mother Theresa attitude towards him of late that has made the idea of the two of the them together so blech.

The Cordy who would have been good for Angel as either a romantic partner or just good friend would have gotten both sides of the Angel/Wesley falling out and made them play nice. But if this had happened, we wouldn't have Wesley/Lilah, which I love, so I guess I'll just have to put up with being blah on Angel/Cordy.

Best of both worlds? As has been suggested elsewhere in this thread - Angelus/Cordy and Wesley/Lilah. Ooo! Gives me happy shivers.

Dead (yet still completely unable to pick a point and stick with it) Soul
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel and Cordy (NO spoilers, promise) -- Miss Edith, 12:18:51 09/20/02 Fri

Angel and Cordy make sense from a story purpose as like you say they do have things in common. Wheares a couples like Wesley and Lilah for instance make sense from a character standpoint. Hence me finding Wesley with Lilah interesting as it emerged naturally in the characters development. The writers have said the fling was unplanned and it was only developed when they saw the chemistry the actors had and realised the possibilites available to them.
Angel and Cordy just feel false to me. Other characters telling me I should accept them as they are both champions is not helping me accept A/C as a romantic couple either. It feels forced. They have a great brother/sister vibe though.
[> [> Yes, spoilers above -- Masq, 10:08:37 09/18/02 Wed

I heard those rumors, too. But I covered my ears and sang "la la la"

Not that I'm not intrigued by the rumors, but, you know... staying on the non-spoiler straight and narrow is a full- time job : )
[> [> [> Rumors count? oh. -- shadowkat, 10:17:31 09/18/02 Wed

This is much harder than I thought.

Sorry. SK
[> [> [> [> On spoilers -- Masq, 10:31:10 09/18/02 Wed

Yes, rumors count if they're wide-spread. It usually means there's a source of them that might be the, uh, actual truth.

I am assuming those rumors are wide-spread because there were articles on it at the Trollop board site (I only went there once, to look at pictures of SMG's wedding, and regretted it!)

My policy is, everything you hear about the upcoming season, rumor or not (and it's mostly all rumors), is a "spoiler". If it's your personal speculation, then it's "spoiler speculation". But I tend to vote that anything that says anything about upcoming episodes, rumor, speculation or good source, should be marked as spoilery.
[> [> [> [> [> Thanks -- shadowkat, 11:13:32 09/18/02 Wed

Didn't get them from Spoiler Trollop Board (been avoiding it like the plague) just from idle
speculating amongst friends and well a TV Guide PReview, but I left out most of that stuff. Actually left out everything but the spec doing amongst friends (who probably are spoiled...it's hard to tell anymore).

It is tough though. I've had to stop reading interviews on slayage.com, had to stop visiting other sites, had to inform all my online friends, and had to stop reading
magazines.

Warning Angel is heavily spoiled in WB Promos (last one lead me to a ton of spec), Entertainment Weekly's season preview, and Tv Guide's. (I left out the stuff I got from those - nothing i read in those publications should appear.)
Btvs isn't, oddly enough. Not sure why. But I've found
it easier to stay unspoiled on it this season than Angel.

So thanks again for that...for my sake and everyone elses.

And very sorry for the slippage. SK
[> [> [> [> [> [> Noticed the same thing (not spoilery but spec about spoilers?) -- Sarand, 14:39:26 09/19/02 Thu

I think that best characterizes what I'm going to say.
I've been doing my best to remain unspoiled as well and have basically done what you are doing, shadowkat. But I noticed that there was much more information on Angel in the TVGuide and in the WB promo after one of Angel's reruns than there has been about BtVS. The TVGuide did not say anything more about Buffy than Whedon had said in an interview shortly after S6. And the promo for the season opener? Really no information at all. Since I presume (or maybe it's assume?) that such things are put out by the networks' publicity departments in conjunction with the producers, I found the difference interesting. Have no idea why but I thought it was interesting.
[> [> [> [> [> I told you to only look at the Pictures.....naughty Masq....;) -- Rufus, 15:51:10 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> I only saw the subject lines, didn't read the posts -- Masq, 16:13:03 09/18/02 Wed

Didn't have to. I pressed the "back" button and fast!

"I don't want to know!"
[> [> Re: Agree with Masq and Scrolls specs -- leslie, 15:15:07 09/18/02 Wed

"I still think they should do something with Justine and Weseley...but have my doubts they'll pursue it. (Was I the only one who saw sparkage there?)"

Given the outrage at the idea of Buffy continuing any kind of relationship with someone who tried to rape her, are we really going to be expected to believe that Wes is going to hook up with the woman who slit his throat?
[> [> Wes and Justine -- alcibiades, 20:49:22 09/18/02 Wed

Also interested in seeing how Justine figures into it.
I still think they should do something with Justine and Weseley...but have my doubts they'll pursue it. (Was I the only one who saw sparkage there?)

No, I saw it and wanted it but then she cut his throat and he slept with Lilah.

If Wes moves from sleeping with Lilah to sleeping with the woman who cut his throat, poor Wes will be in terrible trouble.

Angel and Connor have great acting chemistry -- they were terrific together last year.
[> [> [> Re: Wes and Justine -- shadowkat, 08:57:18 09/19/02 Thu

Oh I agree - no romantic relationship could truly be
possible with someone who tried and entirely intended on killing you. Justine thought she had.

Wonder what she'll do when she realizes she did not succeed? Does she know?

I just want to see these two confront each other. Justine confront her guilt or lack thereof for killing two humans: Wes and Holtz (who clearly made her do it, but still).
And Wes for Justine's betrayle which in some ways was similar to his betrayle of Lorne.

Justine reminds me a little of Darla in the show. I know I'm in the minority, having been one of the few people who enjoyed watching Justine as a character. I find her an interesting villain. Just as I found Darla to be an incredibly fascinating villain.
[> [> [> [> Re: Wes and Justine -- Masq, 09:10:59 09/19/02 Thu

"no romantic relationship could truly be possible with someone who tried and entirely intended on killing you."

And yet people still root for "true love" between Buffy and Spike instead of what we got, a strained, somewhat dark sexual relationship.

And I was someone who loved Justine as a character. Plus Laurel Holloman as an actress.
[> [> [> [> [> Good point. -- shadowkat, 09:30:58 09/19/02 Thu

You know I still would have no problem with Justine and Wes... don't know what that says about me? ;-) On the fence here...

I think the difference is Buffy and Spike mutually tried to kill each other and Spike is a vampire. And hasn't tried
to kill her for at least two years.

But you are right, the same can be said of course for
Angelus/Angel and Buffy. Cordelia/Angel. Also Buffy and SG. Or
for that matter Oz/Willow. I guess..we could make an argument that most of the characters have at one time been
close to killing each other and got past it. And come up with all sorts of rationalizations for why some of these dysfunctional pairings work and others don't etc. (shrug).
[> [> [> [> [> [> Disagree -- alcibiades, 10:17:32 09/19/02 Thu

The situation between Spike and Buffy was not at all the same between Justine and Wesley.

When Spike tried to kill Buffy and vice verse, the situation between them was clear. As Spike said in SR -- Slayer, Vampire, Vampire kills Slayer. They were honourable adversaries so to speak bound to kill each other by the laws of un-nature. That is the way Spike likes to fight. Out in the open, fists and fangs, nothing hidden about it.

Whereas, Justine played on Wesley's compassion and sympathy, and then slit his throat as he was helping her. It is a major betrayal. I suppose some people might think of it as a kind of karmic justice that Wesley would have his throat slit through betrayal in the very moment that he himself is betraying his friend. But it really goes to expose Justine's whole personality. There is something extremely twisted there, since this is not an isolated incident. She blames Angel for Holtz' death as well right after he has saved her life.

As Fred realizes, for Justine, there is no happy, there is no better, there are no feelings at all. She is well on her way to being a sociopath.

BTW, I like Justine as well. Although I loved Holtz -- too bad he is gone -- his voice, that was something else -- totally seductive. Best Big Bad ever in my opinion.

Come to think of it, it is interesting that ME has never had a Big Bad that seduces people over to the dark side. They should get one -- it would be a lot of fun.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Disagree -- Malandanza, 11:08:46 09/19/02 Thu

"Come to think of it, it is interesting that ME has never had a Big Bad that seduces people over to the dark side. They should get one -- it would be a lot of fun."

My feeling is that W&H is that Big Bad -- slowly seducing Angel to the dark side (or at least trying to) and that AtS is all about redemption and damnation. I think Wesley, rather than Angel, is the one who'll be seduced in the upcoming season, but W&H's ultimate goal regarding Angel is corruption (and the demon child in the White Room made significant progress).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree, except on Justine, and agree with Mal on BB -- shadowkat, 11:33:48 09/19/02 Thu

Mal had a great point about W&H being the dark seducer.
I've always seen that, one of the things I love most about
Ats. I agree with Mal's view that they are seducing Wes and corrupting Angel. How true! And I think a major part of the
4 year Ats arc. W&H IMHO is one of ME's finest creations.

I think you're being a bit hard on Justine. Everything she's done has been for Holtz. While she's done bad things, I don't see her as evil. She did feel remorse for what she did to Wes. She allows Gunn and Fred to leave without her minions killing them because of it. She also goes to save them all from Saijhan because of it.

I see Justine as being a sort of a female Wes. She believes that what she is doing will save more lives in the long run. She has bought Holtz routine hook, line and sinker.
And in the end of Tomorrow, she figuratively became Holtz.
Taking on his mission to destroy Angelus no matter what the cost - even if it is her soul.

I love Holtz's line when he makes Justine kill him: "I'm not asking you to follow me to hell, just to send me there." Not exact but close. In a way he's punched her ticket as well as his own. How ironic.

So no, Justine is no more a sociopath than Holtz was.
There are still feelings. She'd actually be better off if there weren't any. It's the feelings that are destroying and eating her up inside.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wes/Justine -- Arethusa, 11:43:36 09/19/02 Thu

Agree with the Wes/Justine comparison. Both are betrayed and betrayer. And if Justine is following Holtz's path, Wesley is following Angel's of Season 2. He is letting himself slip into the darkness and despair. Let's hope, though, that he doesn't get Lilah pregnant to get out of it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If Lilah were pregnant... -- Scroll, 14:23:39 09/19/02 Thu

I've actually wondered what would happen if Lilah got pregnant. I'd love to see everyone's reactions to that situation.

Lilah: Pissed that she has to carry around this kid for 9 months before she can pop it out and sacrifice it to W&H.

Wes: In absolute fear that even if he can convince Lilah not to sacrifice the kid to W&H, some vampy souled guy might try to do eye-for-eye (no matter how slim that possibility may be); also in great fear that he will screw up his own kid even worse than he screwed up Connor.

Angel: Not fair! Wes loses my kid and now he gets his own? Screw the PTB!

Gavin: Darn, now I've got to go get a woman pregnant and sacrifice it to W&H. Better pencil it in...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wes/Justine -- Arethusa, 11:47:51 09/19/02 Thu

Agree with the Wes/Justine comparison. Both are betrayed and betrayer. And if Justine is following Holtz's path, Wesley is following Angel's of Season 2. He is letting himself slip into the darkness and despair. Let's hope, though, that he doesn't get Lilah pregnant to get out of it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I knew it-stinking IP-always cutting me o -- Arethusa, 11:49:17 09/19/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agree, except on Justine, and agree with Mal on BB -- alcibiades, 12:29:45 09/19/02 Thu

We'll see abut Justine next year. The most telling thing will be how helping to take care of Connor over the summer - if that is what she has done - has effected her.

I suppose it would be too easy or too repetitious for Connor to help return Justine to her soul -- the way he did for Darla, although that is what the very act of nurturing implies.

We'll also see how their interaction will effect Connor. If Justine has helped him over the summer and earned his affection in some way, and then he finds out she betrayed him with Holtz, the question of what he will do to her then becomes more complicated -- Will human affection and the recognition that she has done him some good begin to mitigate his black and white perspective so that he can live at some sort of ease in the Angelverse?

As for Big Bads that seduce, you are right about W&H, although I meant my comment in another way -- Big Bads who begin to seduce the audience as well. W&H may have begun to effect to Angel and Wesley, but they haven't seduced the audience yet. And I don't see that they will.

I suppose Spike is the one counter example. A still somewhat evil character who has seduced large parts of the audience. But not to evil, just to Spuffy.

If Wesley is ever turned evil, now he too could have real charisma with the audience.

Willow socked home truths to Buffy that she deserved at the end of the season, which was cathartic in a way, but there wasn't anything seductive about her brand of evil.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agree, except on Justine, and agree with Mal on BB -- shadowkat, 09:52:08 09/20/02 Fri

"As for Big Bads that seduce, you are right about W&H, although I meant my comment in another way -- Big Bads who begin to seduce the audience as well. W&H may have begun to effect to Angel and Wesley, but they haven't seduced the audience yet. And I don't see that they will. "

Uh..well, actually you're not quite right there. Darla had
people in the audience rooting for her. As did Lindsey.
And there's a huge Lilah faction. There are large portions of the audience feeling quite the Lindsey/Lilah love. I really miss Lindsey and when he left? I stopped watching for a while.

And hey, I loved Holtz.

So, guess it depends on the audience. Again subjective vs. objective taste, which is not only hard to predict but hard to measure since the audience is such a mixed bunch. ;-)
[> [> [> Wes & Justine - suicide -- Scroll, 10:33:16 09/19/02 Thu

I really doubt ME will ever pair Wes and Justine. If Wes ever sunk so low as to sleep with Justine, it would be IMO a clear indication of suicidal thoughts. Not so much that Justine would try to slit his throat again, but that she represents Death for him - death of his physical life, death of his faith in helping innocents (which he thought she was until she tried to kill him), death of friendship. Rather the way Buffy was sleeping with Death all season through Spike. A Wes/Justine dynamic actually would be a fascinating path to explore, but I don't think ME will ever try it beyond being enemies.

And I too think Justine is a fascinating character, and I like the actress who plays her. I don't want to see Justine die, but maybe learn and grow. If she dies without ever coming to grips with her past actions, I'll be... well, not disappointed. Maybe just grumpy. I want her to have a good ending, if not a good life.
Still not digging Grave -- alcibiades, 20:26:08 09/17/02 Tue

This time around, I still disliked Grave. I found SMG's acting undistinguished in the episode -- it seemed to repeat a lot of her facial expressions from earlier on in the season -- although perhaps that was the way the part was written. But she didn't present anything new. Except the scene with Giles, which I felt more comfortable with this time around.

I found the scene with Willow and Xander OTT sentimental -- although that is in character for Xander at least, since he's a sentimentalist whose discourse would run to breaky yellow crayons.

But I found the reconciliation scene with Buffy and Dawn schmaltzy and sentimentalized as well.

I just didn't feel moved by the acting -- even Ally who was so good in Two to Go I found less convincing in this role. There were times she lifted her hands for power surges and it just seemed weightless and stagey, not like she was doing anything. Not to mention that there was a problem with disappearing blood under her nose in one of the scenes with Giles. First it's there, then it's gone, then it's back. Definitely distracting.

One point is interesting however -- how little Willow is that she becomes whatever power source is filling her at any moment. It shows her as not possessing a core or a center. I suspect we'll be dealing with that quite a bit this year.

Anyone else want to weigh in?
[> Re: Still not digging Grave -- celticross, 20:48:11 09/17/02 Tue

I found Grave boring the first time I watched it. I had it taped and actually turned off the tape about 30 minutes in because I'd lost interest. I didn't go back and finish it until the next day. It simply felt repetitive. Evil Willow makes snarky evil comments, good guys fail to make snappy come back, butts are kicked. As my little brother noted right before we stopped watching the first time, "I get it. She's bad".

The second half isn't so bad, though I agree on the schmaltz factor of Buffy and Dawn's final conversation. My biggest question, however, is who was out landscaping Sunnydale while Willow was on the rampage, because it's certainly never looked that good before.

On a positive note, I am now a confirmed Giles and Anya shipper. Forget Xander, An! :)
[> Re: Still not digging Grave -- Deeva, 21:19:18 09/17/02 Tue

As season enders go, this is not up there as one of my absolute favorites. The only things that I got from it in May and now, is how much of a misdirect the writers were going for in the whole soul thing and how much I missed Giles. And how perhaps I'm now possibly rooting for Giles/Anya (Ganya? Gilanya? Aniles? Angiles?)

Upon second viewing, I still don't like "I got it all wrong. I don't want to protect you from the world. I want to show it all to you. And to be there for the beautiful woman that you will become cause she's gonna be powerful!" Ugh. I'm sorry I think I could gag. That moment just felt so, so weird or icky. I'm not sure which. It just felt like a line from a Hallmark Movie of the Week or something that my grandmother, in a particularly sentimental moment, would've said to me when I was 16. Followed by me rolling my eyes and saying "Grandma! You're freaking me out!"
[> Re: Possible Future Guilty Pleasures -- Just George, 01:49:43 09/18/02 Wed

I understand that Grave is not the best season ender by a log shot. I have been feeling uneasy about BTVS for the whole summer because of the unpleasant state the characters are in.

However, I get the feeling that once the Scoobies are all acting like heroes again, and dealing with external big bads rather than internal ones, I will feel differently about it. I disliked Graduation Pt. 2 when I first saw it, but now I smile when I watch the silly final fight with Mayor. I expect that the Villains to Grave arc will become guilty pleasures because of their over the top story lines and a bunch of fun lines (fun in a good bad movie kind of way.)

BTW, this only works if I end up enjoying the way S7 turns out.

-Just George
[> Just chiming in. -- CW, 06:18:10 09/18/02 Wed

I agree with the folks above. Grave wasn't so great. David Fury has some clever ideas, but he's just an average writer. Someone else should have written the season finale. Like Joss.

Where did the makeup people get the idea that scribbling straight lines on AH's face would look like purply veins? Kinda spoiled the mood.
Undermining the importance of the Slayer? -- Earl Allison, 02:17:09 09/18/02 Wed

Well, "Grave" brought it all back to me, but there have been lots of instances on both shows to prompt me to ask this;

Does the number of NORMAL humans being able to combat vampires fairly easily undermine the concept of the Slayer as a Big Deal?

I mean, on "Angel," we have Gunn and his old gang, and now Fred (?!?) being able to hold their own pretty well against multiple vampires. Holtz's protege Justine and her teammates captured vampires to use in practice fights!

And last night's airing of "Grave" just made me grind my teeth as Dawn demonstrated "combat skills via osmosis" against the Willow-summoned demons.

Does anyone remember how a SINGLE VAMPIRE in Season Two or Three "Buffy" could tie up almost all of the supporting cast, and none of them could score an easy kill? Even as late as Season Six's eye-rolling demon bikers, the Scoobies didn't exactly make a great showing of it.

Heck, Kendra just barely staked one vamp before Drusilla killed her -- yet the shows (more Angel than Buffy) seem to imply that any idiot can fight vampires and kick major undead tail with some minor training.

If so, what's the big deal with the Slayer? If anyone with some training can fight them -- who cares? The Slayer is stronger and faster, so what? Apparently anyone who watches her for a length of time can fight well (oh, how my eyes hurt from the rolling), as can most other normals who decide to fight vampires.

I realize that "Angel" is more action-oriented, and the cast are supposed to be slightly older, but does that excuse this?

Are the Scoobies just overwhelmingly incompetant, or is there something majorly wrong with ME's presentation overall? Because I would hate to think Dawn is a more skilled fighter than Xander, Willow or Giles (depite them having YEARS more experience in both actual field work and watching Buffy).

Thoughts? Am I missing something?

Take it and run.
[> Dawn's sudden superpowers (S7,8 spec only) -- tim, 06:21:22 09/18/02 Wed

For the most part I agree with you; that had sort of begun to irk me, as well. Dawn may be a special case, though.

While I am unspoiled for next season, I have a deep and abiding suspicion that our little Dawnie has powers beyond that of a mere mortal. Perhaps she did learn by watching Big Sis, but that doesn't mean that just anyone could pick it up that way. I could be way off, but I'm expecting this newfound fierceness to be tied back to her Key-ness early in S7, paricularly since they may be grooming her (both character and actor) to take over the Slayer role in S8 if SMG leaves for the greener pastures of Scooby Doo sequels.

--th
[> Inflation -- CW, 06:35:51 09/18/02 Wed

Inflation is just as dread in the world of entertainment as it is in the financial world. Trying to keep things interesting can slowly ruin any action show. The problem is that to make a particular episode exciting the writers have X fight two vampires instead of one. Then next time it's three. Then four... If X can stand a chance against so many, individually they can't seem so tough any more. Pretty soon you wonder why the half-crazy weak-sister Dru didn't just beat the tar out of Angelus when he started bothering her, back when she was still alive.
[> Re: Undermining the importance of the Slayer? -- vh, 06:55:21 09/18/02 Wed

Remember, Dawn has two special qualities: she contains this great powerful green glowy essence (whatever that is, it was enough for the monks to create Dawn and rewrite the history of everybody who remotely touched her) and she was made out of the very substance of Buffy, which should have some special characteristics of its own. Actually, I was rather disappointed in how boringly ordinary Dawn turned out to be in season 6.
[> Re: Undermining the importance of the Slayer? -- Majin Gojira, 08:13:34 09/18/02 Wed

Their are several factors missing:

Age/power of Vampire being fought.

regularity of Vampire Slayage

Dawn having the "Same Blood" as Buffy.

Slayers can fight/defeat Vampires up to about 300years old with relative ease. and on a nightly basis.
See: Angel. "Sanctuary". where angel tells buffy 'Your just a little bit stronger than me'
And WttHM, where Buffy beats the crap out of Darla with apparent ease.

A Normal Human can put up a fight to fesh vampires up to a maximum of about 70 years. otherwise, they have to relie on a trap/intelegence to overcome the opponent. and this is only on a weekly basis at best.

Someone else covered the Dawn-blood thing so I don't have to.
[> I agree -- Sophist, 09:46:11 09/18/02 Wed

And just to be more provocative, nothing could possibly undermine the importance of the slayer more than to have some ordinary person save the entire world. If everyone is a superhero, why have a show about Buffy?
[> [> My sarcasm-meter is broken -- are you really mocking me? -- Earl cowering-in-shame Allison, 10:00:02 09/18/02 Wed

[> [> [> Ignore above post (hit wrong key) -- Earl Allison, 10:04:37 09/18/02 Wed

Sorry for the accidental post.

It's so hard to tell with you, Sophist.

Are you upset with my comments, playing devil's advocate, or absolutely serious?

Tending towards the first or second -- didn't think you disliked the ending THAT much ...

Take it and run.
Adam's Soul -- Arethusa, 09:26:07 09/18/02 Wed

It took me so long to think this post out that the thread disappeared!-but for the same reason I can't trash it.


In "Goodye, Iowa," Adam says,
"I've been thinking... About the world.
I wanted to see it. Learn it. I saw the
inside of that boy, and it was
beautiful, but it didn't tell me about
the world. It just made me feel. So
now I want to know about me. Why
I feel. What I am.
Mother wrote things down. Hard
data, but also her... feelings. That's
how I learned I have... a job here.
And that she loved me. "


"You feel smothered. Trapped like
an animal, pure in its ferocity,
unable to actualize the urges
withinÖ Clinging to one truth
like a flame struggling to burn
within an enclosed glassÖ That
a beast this powerful cannot be
contained. Inevitably it will
break free and savage the land
againÖ I will make you whole
again. Make you savage." (To Spike, in The Yoko Factor)

"Once you forget your
old life and embrace your destiny
as I have, you'll know power
you've never dreamed of.
(considers)
I think you're going to like it." (To Riley, in Primeval)

"Demons cling to old ways
and ancient feuds. And they're
hopeless with technology. Unworthy.
Disappointed by demonkind,
we turn to humans. Smart,
adaptive, but emotional and weak.
Blind. There is imperfection
everywhere. Something must
be done. Who will deliver us?
Mother. She creates me -
demon strength, human will,
high-grade titanium. Evolution
through technology. I am the new
standard for all living beings and
our mother knew that. She saw
our future, yours and mine." (Ditto)

Quotes are from:

http://buffyscripts.net/

but beware; Season 7 episode discriptions are just sitting there, spoiling the unwary. I had to avert my eyes so quickly they rolled in the sockets like dice in a craps game.

I don't think Adam has a soul. He is self-aware, but can't reject his programming, or even realize that other, possibly valid, points of view exist. His opinions and decisions are based on what Walsh believed and programmed into him. Adam's goals, beliefs and prejudices reflect Walsh's soul, not his own. His connections to others seem to be programmed into him, confined to those needed to fulfill his mother's master plan. He feels no connection to humanity beyond the mother/son and brother/brother bonds that are heavily dependent on his programming. He is unable to feel empathy for anything he kills. If Spike is an adolescent, Adam is a newborn, unconnected with anything but his mother. And he kills her, so it seems that his connection is really a programmed directive, subordinate to his goal.

I wonder-would he have developed a human-type connection to the hybrids he wanted to create?

Thanks to you and cjl for the kind words.
[> Above is a response to shadowkat -- Arethusa, 09:29:56 09/18/02 Wed

[> A vote to resurrect it -- Rahael, 09:37:22 09/18/02 Wed

Is voy doing its thing again? The board doesn't seem so large to me at the moment!

Anyway, there's so much goodness in that thread it should be brought back!!

And this has nothing to do with the fact I have posts I want to do to it!
[> [> Thanks Masq, Rah and Arethusa! -- shadowkat, 10:01:17 09/18/02 Wed

[> Shadowkat's thread restored below -- Masq, 09:55:14 09/18/02 Wed

[> Wow...beautifully written response -- shadowkat, 09:58:36 09/18/02 Wed

Thanks for not trashing it! I think you answered the whole question about robots as well - who are also self-aware in the sense that you describe.

"I don't think Adam has a soul. He is self-aware, but can't reject his programming, or even realize that other, possibly valid, points of view exist. His opinions and decisions are based on what Walsh believed and programmed into him. Adam's goals, beliefs and prejudices reflect Walsh's soul, not his own. His connections to others seem to be programmed into him, confined to those needed to fulfill his mother's master plan. He feels no connection to humanity beyond the mother/son and brother/brother bonds that are heavily dependent on his programming. He is unable to feel empathy for anything he kills. If Spike is an adolescent, Adam is a newborn, unconnected with anything but his mother. And he kills her, so it seems that his connection is really a programmed directive, subordinate to his goal. "

This reminds me oddly enough of Star Trek NExt Generation's story arc on Lt. Data - who as the story progressed began to become more and more connected to the humans around him, in the end acquiring the much desired emotions. Emotions were the final link.

I think you're right - when she created Adam, Walsh inserted and programmed portions of herself. Just as Lt. Data in Star trek's creator implants himself. The child learns from it's parents. Somewhat Freudian concept of the soul or super-ego - where the values and beliefs are formed partly by the environement in which we are raised.

The newborn child has no super-ego or soul. No awareness of anything outside itself. As it grows it makes connections, forms attachments - like Spike does with Dru, the SG, Buffy.
Or we see Angel begin to do in the Hotel in that episode Were you now or if you ever were (can never remember it
right) - he tries to make connections with the woman and the other members of the hotel - only to be horribly betrayed by her. So he removes himself again and through Whistler and Buffy...starts to make more connections and grows through them. So I too wonder what would have happened if the SG had not defeated Adam. Would he have begun to bond with Forrest and Riley and the other creations?

Is the formation of the soul - something that happens over time - as we grow or did our souls always exist and in each reincarnation are wiped clean? Don't really know. In past two months I read selections from six philosophers and they all seemed to have differing views on it.

I do find the idea of growing a soul though to be an interesting one, although I agree Adam didn't have a soul so much as a programmed directive.

Thanks for going to the buffyscripts site and getting this for us. And especially for warning me about the spoilers there. Psyche transcripts appears to be down at the moment,it's still the safest, which is why not all my quotage is great. And I'm afraid to go to other sites. Really trying to stay unspoiled this year. ;-)


SK
My hopes and dreams for the new seasons (BtVS S6, AtS S3 Spoilers) -- Honorificus (The Dream- Come True Herself), 13:48:15 09/18/02 Wed

I, for one, am sick of all this sickly sweet speculation. Will poor, darling Willow be all angst-stricken because she was a Naughty Girl? How will they bring dear Wesley back into the fold of the Good and Righteous? And what about Spike and his shiny new soul?

Enough! It's time we Super-Evil Alter Egos had our say. Are Joss and Co. going to disappoint us yet again?

Willow, for instance. She finally got really interesting long about the end of last season, and then they go and yank our chains by having Xander--Xander!--stop her lovely destructive tear. May I just say, lame? Here's hoping she's used the summer to evaluate the direction her life's taking and decide to screw it all and just be evil. Bypass the angst, honey--I'm with you all the way.

At least Anyanka's back in the fold. I've gotta say, though, I'm very disappointed with her so far. Not one gut- exploding mess since she became a Vengeance Demon again. Where's Joss' courage? Is he afraid to let her show her true nature because he thinks the audience won't like it? What I want is for her to truly get back to her roots this coming season. Being human was a fun experiment, certainly, but all the sex in the world can't compare to the satisfaction of causing truly messy deaths. Maybe she and Evil Willow can hook up.

Buffy's hardly even worth talking about. I hope she goes nuts, kills the Brat, and then takes a flying leap off of Kingman's Bluff. Not that TPTB will ever listen to me. Noooo! They've gotta have their stupid hero! Just like every other friggin' TV show out there. Bite me, Whedon.

As for Xander--after the stunt he pulled in "Grave," I hope Evil Willow takes him out first. After all, he's earned it.

Giles is a tougher case. I mean, yes, he's Good and all, but I've got a thing for him. He's really got potential, with that lovely Ripper side and all. Perhaps he, like Willow, will give it up and just indulge his inner Evil. But maybe not. He could turn out to be a very interesting antagonist for Our Villains.

Spike. Well. What can I say? If Whedon has any sense, he'll just let the boy be evil again. Angel tried to go evil after he got his soul back; why not let Spike actually make it? Show the true triumph of Evil over Good? That would be the courageous thing, which leads me to believe it won't happen.

On to AtS. My dream storyline: Angel comes off the floor of the ocean completely bonkers, and his demon side overwhelms his soul. He chows down on the first Making Out Couple he can find parked along the oceanfront and goes back to being the murdering psychotic we all knew and loved during BtVS S2.

Wesley (yum!), meanwhile, continues down his own Dark Path, led by Lilah. He and Angel remain enemies, however, so we do still have an element of conflict on the show. Fred and Gunn get killed in the crossfire.

As for Cordelia, she returns from her "Higher Plane" having been seduced by dark forces. She's a true Demon now, and the first thing she does is seek out Angel. With her new powers, she strips him of his soul, and our couple leads the Bad Fight and terrorizes Los Angeles and Wolfram & Hart.

Connor's a difficult one. We could have him lead the Forces of Good, but I dunno. I'm rather fond of the boy in spite of his irrational prejudice against demons. Say he discovers Justine's duplicity and decides hell with it, I'll just join up with old Dad and be evil myself. He, Angelus, and Demon Cordy would make the loveliest family, don't you think? Role models for demon families everywhere. We've been sadly underrepresented on television. It's time for that to stop.

And Lorne can just switch sides. In spite of all his pretensions to Goodness (which he only put on as a show on account of his crush on Angel), he's really a neutral force. He can swing either way.

So. That's what I'm hoping for. How about the rest of you demons out there?
[> Hail to thee, Honorificus, foul pestilent creature of the pits! Now, about S7... -- The Unclean, 14:23:37 09/18/02 Wed

The miserable creatures who have run this series into the ground have no conception of the carnage resulting in the battles between the children of our Ancient forefathers and the sniveling offspring of the Powers. Collectively, we have razed countless dimensions, devastated entire races and strewn corpses across the multiverse.

I would hope that in Season 7, the battle for Earth's dimension erupts in all its infernal glory, with the limbs of Sunnydale's ineffectual and whimpering defenders flying across the television screen in a glorious ballet of mutilation. I wish to see the middle-class coffin-box homes of Sunnydale ablaze with hellfire and the Slayer roasted on the pyre of her own pretentions and delusional sense of morality.

Death! Death and destruction to all!

(And I want to see Willow find a nice girl and be happy. Because I hated what happened to Tara.)
[> [> I'll second all of that! -- Honorificus (The Small- Nosed and Naturally Curly One), 21:02:10 09/18/02 Wed

Yes, seeing the Hellmouth erupt in a flood of chaos and destruction would be an exceedingly happy ending to this series, if this is indeed the final season. It would be a long-denied payoff for the Forces of Evil who have suffered so horribly under the Slayer's Reign of Terror.

And yes, I, too, hated what happened to Tara. For a goody- two-shoes, she was actually rather endearing.
[> LOL! If Evil has its way... -- Scroll, 14:32:31 09/18/02 Wed

You know how everyone went ape over naked!Spike this past season? Well, I want naked!Wes and lots of it! Hardcore, tie Lilah up and inflict whips and chains on her. Would be fun, and she wouldn't mind, would she? No, the dear girl is quite the good little sub.

I want more leather, more Big Dog motorcycles, more insane vampires (Angelus, honey, you wanna big bite of physicist? Tastes just like chicken!) fewer pancakes, fewer drive-in movies, fewer white-robed saints (though their jeeps can be left just where they are on the highway, cuz I wanna see that 20-car pile-up happen, baby!)

More Darth Willow, more Spike with Dru rampaging through Sunnyhell, more Dawn as a nuclear weapon analogies. Less sisterly bonding unless it's a tie-you-to-the-train-tracks kind of bonding. And of course, for the new high school principal to be eaten. Gotta love tradition!
[> [> Please, you're making me drool! -- Honorificus (Her Effulgent Darkness), 18:31:54 09/18/02 Wed

Naked!Wes with Sub!Lilah all chained up? What a tasty pair! I'll take 'em both. On toast. With lots of butter!
[> Mostly agree (I hate that!) -- Saguaro Stalker, 14:50:03 09/18/02 Wed

But, Wesley? Who cares about the skinny kid with the glasses? He got picked last in gym class. I say let the goody team have him. Turn Gunn bad, really bad. When that goody-goody Angel comes up from the sea, have Gunn nail that punk Connor in the box and send it back down to the bottom again. That twit Angel will love that!

Have Fred turn bad, really bad, and vindictive. When she comes back from above, Fred can ask Cordy questions like "Where were you when we needed you, you trollop!?" "I always knew you were stuck on yourself, but did you think the Angel in the show's title meant you, birdbrain?" and "What century were those gunny-sacks you've got on, in style, you baglady!?"

Now that's entertainment.
[> [> Watch what you say about Wesley, Imp! -- Honorificus (The Clean-Smelling Shiny One), 19:19:25 09/18/02 Wed

He may be part dweeb, but I happen to like dweebs better than a lot of demons I could name. The actor who plays him is terrific, and Wesley's got enough intelligence to make him a formidable player in our game. Add to that a wide streak of ruthlessness and you've got one sexy human. I'd take him any day. Or night.
[> [> [> Re: Watch what you say about Wesley, Imp! -- Saguaro Stalker, 03:59:51 09/19/02 Thu

I didn't say Wesley isn't a fine plaything for his betters, like you. But, come on. He's such a bungler, he does so much more for us baddies, when he thinks he's working on the good side. Fortunately for us, in Wesley's case, a little knowledge is a deliciously bad thing!

And "Imp?" You're such a charmer!
[> Re: My hopes and dreams for the new seasons (AtS S4 Spoilers) -- The First Evil, 15:06:40 09/18/02 Wed

I will personally stand behind Angel when he first lays eyes on Cordy again this coming season and say,

"Take her. Take what you want. Pour all that frustration, all that guilt into her and you'll be free!"

"She wants you to taste her. Think of the peace... you would never see us again!"

Then boom! We have our beloved Angelus back!
[> Ya know what'd be reeeeally evil? (season 6 spoilers, 'cause I'm EEEVIL!) -- Hydra (since 7 heads are better than one Apophis), 15:22:31 09/18/02 Wed

Tara comes back to the land of the living... and she's PISSED!!! Look at what all that goody-good, white magic, nice girl crap got her? We could sway her easily. Pull a few strings and she's back on the material plane, tricked out bad girl style, ready to see just what the TRUE essence of magic is! POWER, baby! Who needs love and kindness when you can destroy everything that gets in your way. First, she stomps Xander for stopping Willow's divine vengeance. Next, she wastes Willow for giving up so easily. Then, she recruits EvilWesley and a "re-educated" Faith to complete her triad of terror. They'll make the Hellmouth a movable feast; why should SoCal have all the fun?
[> [> Ooh, and she could suck the Brat's power, too! -- Honorificus (The Sexy, Yet Subtle One), 22:45:48 09/18/02 Wed

All that green glowy energy, just waiting to be tapped into by the right entity. I'd have done it and done it right, but noooo! Glory's got to go and squander the best chance to do unleash true chaos and terror. Idiot. Mom always liked her best. It's not fair!
[> One demon to another, don't waste your smoke, Sweetness. -- Devilish, 16:01:36 09/18/02 Wed

Honorificus, honey, darling, you are looking for satisfaction in all the wrong places. Are you looking to this demigod called Joss, to fufill your evil quotient? Cause I just donít see that happening. Some may say that he is truly an evil being but I am not fooled by such talk. He may claim to wear the mantle of evil but deep down in his calculatingly merciless heart he is a poof. Illusions of grand tragic love, humans who aspire to be full blooded demons, heroines who donít stay dead and what not. Pish posh. Hardly the work of an evil creature. More like the annoying ramblings of a neglected, picked on little boy who did not like school very much.

I, on the other hand, watch the antics of this motley bunch with an iota of interest. This Spike creature that they go on about isÖintriguing. Heís the example to be held up to all our little ones. ìSee what happens when you play with your people and donít eat them, when youíre supposed to?"

No, my amusement will derive from other more fruitful areas. HmmÖI think I see some trouble brewing over on another dimension. Where are all the good minions when you need them?
If it does happen, what would *you* call it? -- OnM, 13:56:09 09/18/02 Wed

While writing out my response to the 'dread S7' thread below, it occurred to me that a number of folks don't cotton to the idea of 'Dawn the Vampire Slayer', either as a concept, or maybe just for the name-- it seems a bit derivative, eh wot?

So, a mini-poll here. Let's say that Dawn is the character chosen to be some kind of next Chosen One (not necessarily literally the next Slayer). What would you name this new show?

In my choice, I am going to presume that Buffy (SMG) will play a minor or only recurring role-- perhaps she's off in another dimension doing Slayage there, and just pops in once and a while to the regular Sunnydale plane of existence.

My vote would be to name the show simply

"Trinity"

which harkens back to my old idea of a Slayer trinity, namely Buffy, Faith and Dawn. (Mother, 'daughter', 'holy ghost'-- you decide which is which! Ah, ambiguity... ;-)

(Plus, Josswise, there is the cool Matrix ref.)

Post 'em if you've got 'em!
[> How about 'New Dawn' ? -- Cactus Watcher, 14:13:03 09/18/02 Wed

A play on her presumed new status as slayer. I'd prefer a show with no slayer at all, just the gang fighting to keep things as they are. Call it Sunnydale.
[> SUNNYDALE - "A nice place to visit, but it's hell to live there" -- cjl, 14:13:21 09/18/02 Wed

[> "Off Key"? It has a certain je ne sais quoi.;) -- mundusmundi, 14:31:36 09/18/02 Wed

[> "Brats: Dawn and Connor" - kinda Buffy/Angel, the Next Generation -- Scroll, 14:40:43 09/18/02 Wed

[> If Connor's in it - "Rising Dhamp" -- Dead (yet still referencing obscure British sitcoms) Soul, 14:43:43 09/18/02 Wed

[> The Dawn chronicles: year one -- luvthistle1, 15:05:44 09/18/02 Wed

I think they should call it "the Dawn Chroncles," after the journal she kept.
[> "Bloodlines" - to encompass Dawn and/or Future Slayers -- Scroll, 15:09:34 09/18/02 Wed

[> Break of Dawn (pure cheeze) -- neaux, 15:28:08 09/18/02 Wed

[> The Key to Sunnydale -- dubdub ;o), 15:50:26 09/18/02 Wed

[> Dark Hour -- Arethusa, 19:02:02 09/18/02 Wed

"The darkest hour is that before the dawn." Euripedes
[> Crap -- Rochefort, 19:08:26 09/18/02 Wed

[> I would call it... -- JBone, 20:17:53 09/18/02 Wed

Steve. Hey, Steve is the new Bob.
[> [> Steve is the new Bob??? When did this happen?? I'm *so* outa the loop... -- OnM, 20:27:23 09/18/02 Wed

[> I like "Bloodlines", but..... -- FriarTed, 22:15:54 09/18/02 Wed

I'd call it "Slayers"- and have a definitive explanation as to why there are more than a "Chosen One" (and always have been, the Watchers Council was blinded to that by their preconceived notion that there was just One).
[> FlippantBoy says: "Avoid Your Television" -- pr10n, 23:16:49 09/18/02 Wed

[> Why not 'Hellmouth' - sums it up & no sell-by date. -- John Burwood, 00:15:23 09/19/02 Thu

[> "The Remainders"? -- Darby, 08:55:42 09/19/02 Thu

[> "Hellmouth" -- grifter, 09:43:00 09/19/02 Thu

You know, that wacky Hellmouth-thingie is still there, maybe they should use it again in a story or two?
[> "Gifted" -- mrpointy, 10:05:19 09/19/02 Thu

This is the obvious choice, simple, easily recalled, and resonant with the whole "The Gift" thing (pretty much the Buffsters highest moment).
[> Or, my personal favorite "Restless" -- mrpointy, 10:11:47 09/19/02 Thu

"Restless" is my fav, and would be the best choice because it hits the resonance Trifecta of A) elegant simplicity and ease of recall, B) identifying with Buffy's struggle with her own identity as the slayer, and C) simply describing Spike, or any other Vamp out there in the BV, vampires can never rest, which is a fact of experience they share with the slayer. Ok. Nuff said.
Who is Mary Sue? -- Nic, 01:56:44 09/19/02 Thu

I am hopelessly ignorant about this reference. I've read alot of essays and posts where Jonathan is referred to as a Mary Sue; just read a post where Riley is called that. But nobody explains what that means.

Who or what is a Mary Sue? I don't have a shadow of a clue about the meaning!

Please, please, please take pity on me and shed some light on the topic.
:0)
[> Re: Who is Mary Sue?....link inside -- Rufus, 02:48:43 09/19/02 Thu

From Dr. Merlin's Guide to Fan Fiction

V. Who Is Mary Sue and Why Does She Have to Die?
***

I honestly wish I'd kept a copy of the first essay I read about Mary Sueism. It was well-done, and I don't think I can do the subject half the justice the original did. However, I'll give it my best shot.

You already know Mary Sue. Mary Sue is the perky, bright, helpful sixteen-year-old ensign who beams about the ship. Everyone on the ship likes Mary Sue, because Mary Sue is good at everything. Mary Sue is an engineer, a doctor in training, a good leader, an excellent cook, and is usually a beautiful singer. Mary Sue often has mental powers that may manifest themselves as telepathy, precognition, or magic. Her past is tragic, more so than any other character on the series. (Many Mary Sues have a backstory that reads like a V.C. Andrews novel. This is a clue.) If Mary Sue is very young, she is often the offspring of one or two already established characters. If she's a little older, she will probably end up sleeping with the author's favorite character. Sometimes, she fills both roles. Her name is often the author's name, be it a net.name, a favored nickname, or the author's middle name (this is seen in the most famous Mary Sue of all time, Wesley Crusher, who was named after Trek creator Eugene Wesley Roddenbery). By the end of the story, Mary Sue will be in bed with the desired character, will have beamed away amid cheers from all the regulars, or will be dead, usually accompanied by heavy mourning from the cast. The reader, on the other hand, will be celebrating. BTW, Mary Sue's twin brother can often be identified by his brooding, solitary behaviour, matched by his maverick disregard for authority (for a great example, see the very beginning of TNG's "Hollow Pursuits" alias Barclay, Part One).

Before I go any further, I would like to point out that I have read several excellent stories with characters that fit every part of this description. Fortunately, there are authors who can take this character type, and make a figure just as memorable and vibrant as any ever seen on the series. My absolute favorite Mary-Sue-made- wonderful is Fionnuala Rowan, in Tara O'Shea's Gargoyles stories. If you haven't read them, you really really should. They're ... remarkable. There are others who've managed to do it well (I'm going to be slapped by some of them for not saying so here, but I've drawn a blank to names right now). Still, for the most part, unless you know what you're doing, if you see a character of your own fitting this description, find another way of telling the story. Please. Remember, fanfic is about characters we know and love, not about how much they like a new person who has nothing to do with their universe. Mary Sues not only stop fanmail, they often invite flames. Use them wisely, or not at all.

Hope that helps.
[> [> Re: Who is Mary Sue? -- Robert, 08:11:04 09/19/02 Thu

>>> "Remember, fanfic is about characters we know and love, not about how much they like a new person who has nothing to do with their universe."

Would it be valid for me to conclude (from your essay) that a "Mary Sue" character is new character introduced for the duration of a story, novel or an episode?

I ask, because in Nic's original posting, he said that both Jonathon and Riley have been referred to as "Mary Sue" characters. You essay would seem to argue otherwise, because Jonathon has been around since first season and Riley was around for 1-1/2 seasons.
[> Jonathan and Riley as Mary Sue(s) -- cjl, 08:54:27 09/19/02 Thu

Jonathan in "Superstar" is actual a PARODY of a Mary Sue character, or a Mary Sue character fitted with an extra meta- narrative level (because, hey, it's BUFFY) in which we see the how cheesy these characters can be romaing around in a predefined universe.

Riley is a tougher call. In most of S4, he's almost a Mary Sue character, supposedly an idealized version of MN's husband retrofitted for Buffy. (That's all I'm saying about Marti. Do NOT want to go there.) But in S5, his limitations become clear, his inappropriateness for Buffy is equally clear, and he leaves, not with a bang, but with a whimper. Granted, he's inspired the fan hatred given to many a Mary Sue character, but I don't think it's warranted.

I'm tempted to think ME and Doug Petrie winked at us in AYW by pairing up Riley with the "Mary Sue-est" Mary Sue in the history of BtVS: Sam.

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