October 2004 posts
OT: Halloween bedevils some U.S. churches.
-- Rufus, 16:56:54 10/26/04 Tue
Yahoo
News
Halloween bedevils some U.S. churches
Mon Oct 25, 9:40 AM ET
By Dahleen Glanton Tribune national correspondent
Every weekend in October through Halloween, thousands of people
converge on this rural town to take a trip down the Tribulation
Trail.
The wooded path behind Metro Heights Baptist Church leads them
through scenes of a battleground in Iraq (news - web sites), to
a world ruled by the devil and to a meeting with Christ, who invites
Christians into heaven and sends sinners to hell.
As in a typical haunted house, the scenes are scary and graphic.
Though the trail is centered on Halloween, it is not meant to
celebrate the holiday. The trail and a growing number of events
like it are meant as an alternative to Halloween--as a depiction
of real-life wickedness.
Some evangelical Christians have waged a battle for two decades
to erase Halloween from American culture, saying the observance
glorifies evil. The debate on whether Halloween is a secular or
religious event has received renewed energy this year because
it falls on a Sunday.
Christians across the country, particularly in the Bible Belt,
have flooded local government offices with requests to forbid
Sunday celebrations or move them to Saturday so they won't conflict
with the Sabbath.
"It's a demonic spirit day," said Deborah Griggs, 36,
of Newnan, Ga., who does not allow her three boys to celebrate
Halloween. "God should get the glory on Sunday and Saturday
as well. Halloween should be canceled altogether."
Halloween has its roots in Europe in the pre-Christian Celtic
festival of Samhain, during which it was believed ghosts of the
dead revisited Earth. When Christianity took over and All Saints'
Day (or Allhallows) was set on Nov. 1, the night before that became
known as Allhallows Eve, or Halloween.
Commercial success
In modern times, the holiday has been transformed into a highly
commercialized event in this country, celebrated by children and
adults and generating more than $7 billion a year. For most people,
it is simply a day or night of fun and a cause to dress up in
silly costumes.
But many Christians, as well as some Jews and Muslims, choose
not to observe Halloween because it conflicts with their religious
values. Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian
Coalition, has said they should "close Halloween down"
and that children who dress up as witches are "acting out
Satanic rituals."
The issue rose to the forefront in the 1980s with the return of
evangelicals to the political arena, and became a part of the
broader movement dealing with school prayer and abortion, said
Charles Haynes, senior scholar for the First Amendment Center
in Arlington, Va.
"Some evangelical and conservative parents asked, `If we
can't have Jesus in [the schools] in December, why can we have
witches and ghosts in October?' They see it as a religious issue,
but it does not have much of a legal basis," Haynes said.
"No court is likely to see the secular use of ghost or witch
images as a religious imposition," he said. "But that
does not mean it's right to do it. Halloween has become a big
public-relations issue, especially in schools. And districts that
have the least problems have learned to compromise."
While city officials have not tried to legally dictate when Halloween
celebrations can be held, many municipalities, such as Bowling
Green, Ky.; Phenix City, Ala.; and Grand Rapids, Mich., have responded
to the pleas of residents and made it clear that Saturday is the
preferred day.
In Columbus, Ga., Mayor Bob Poydasheff got several such requests
and announced during a City Council meeting that residents should
consider celebrating on Saturday rather than Sunday.
"The mayor felt it would be a good thing to encourage people,
without mandating anything, because many churches in the community
have services on Sunday evening," said Ed Wilson, the mayor's
assistant. "We wanted to avoid a conflict."
Theologians say there is no single perspective on Halloween, but
some Christians see the observance as a tribute to paganism and
the devil. The anti-Halloween movement has attracted a large following,
particularly in the South, the cradle of the fundamentalist evangelical
movement.
"The more rigorous fundamentalists seem to have the most
concern that Halloween affirms the reality of the devil and Satan,"
said Charles Lippy, a religious studies professor at the University
of Tennessee at Chattanooga.
Separating fantasy, reality
"One of the problems is that adults may have more of a problem
than the children in separating reality from fantasy," Lippy
said. "Kids who dress up as princesses or devils seem to
know full well that is not who they are, and that it is a game
and exercise in imagination."
For years, some Christians have lobbied schools to discontinue
Halloween parties, and when they refused, they kept their children
home from the events. On Halloween night, they stayed inside with
their porch lights off and their curtains closed, signaling to
trick-or-treaters that they were unwelcome.
But in recent years, religious opponents of Halloween have become
more active. Many schools and churches hold harvest festivals
as an alternative to Halloween parties. Many families have decided
to open their doors to trick-or-treaters, but along with the candy,
they hand out religious tracts, little pamphlets that teach children
about Christ. More than 3,000 "hell houses" like Tribulation
Trail have sprung up across the country.
The idea of scary but faith-based alternatives to haunted houses
took root in the 1970s at Rev. Jerry Falwell's Liberty University
in Lynchburg, Va. Liberty's event, called ScareMare, presents
frightening scenes of death to pose the religious question: "What
will happen when you die?"
The "hell house" idea has grown in popularity despite
criticism of graphic portrayals of people dying of AIDS (news
- web sites), abortions, gang shootings, drunken drivers and teenage
suicide. On Tribulation Trail, there is a large picture of singers
Britney Spears and Madonna (news - web sites) kissing as one example
of the decline of family values.
The idea of alternative haunted houses has been promoted in recent
years by Keenan Roberts, who created "Hell House" near
Denver in 1995 and began marketing it to other religious organizations
across the country. Several churches now sell kits.
"There was a lot of heat in the 1990s, but some of our critics
just ran out of gas. We have not changed one thing about how we
go about what we feel needs to be communicated," said Roberts,
pastor of Destiny Church of the Assemblies of God in Northglenn,
Colo.
"We tell people that sin always brings about devastating
results. But when you get tired of sin, Jesus is there knocking
on the door waiting to forgive you," he said.
At the end of the Tribulation Trail, counselors are available
to talk to those who want to learn more. A minister prays for
the group and hands out Bibles. Sometimes, volunteers said, people's
lives are changed.
"The devil has a counterpart for everything God does. Halloween
is one of them," said Elaine Law, 45, who volunteers as a
counselor. "We are here until 1 a.m. If we can save one person,
it's worth it."
Replies:
[> I've said it before and I'll say it a thousand times
-- Majin Gojira, 18:45:06 10/26/04 Tue
"Some People are Dumb"
And
"Damned Fundies are ruining EVERYTHING!"
Only they'd create the After-School Specials of Haunted Houses...
[> [> This disturbs me, a lot. -- Kansas, 19:11:34
10/26/04 Tue
Not because our society will be the poorer if Halloween celebrations
are abolished (though it will), but because encouraging people
to fear something that's illusory can have unpredictable, dangerous
consequences. From banning haunted houses to persecuting flesh-and-blood
"witches" is not that big a leap...
[> [> Not just the fundies -- Merle, 20:57:56
10/26/04 Tue
PC Nazis on the left aren't much better than Fundy Nazis on the
right.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41029
If anyone should be offended here, it's decent Wiccans who should
be offended that a handful of humorless pricks is trying to give
all you guys a bad name. The only thing the kids are going to
remember from this is that Halloween was cancelled because of
Wiccans. I'd like it if the Wiccan kids at this school (if there
are any) dress up as warty, broomy, cauldrony, black-hatty witches
themselves on the days leading up to Halloween just to prove that
not all Wiccans are assholes.
[> [> [> At least they'll know that there are Wiccans.
-- skeeve, 08:13:25 10/27/04 Wed
[> [> [> Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...
-- Kansas, 09:36:20 10/27/04 Wed
[> [> I guess it varies.... -- Angel's Watcher, 13:02:25
10/27/04 Wed
My family and I go to a fundementalist church and while they have
harvest stuff instead of the other, we still celebrate halloween.
I'm too old for trick or treat but we're giving out candy and
have most of the decorations out but not all of them yet.
And there are a couple places I used to go to church where they
had a halloween party every year and I still kinda miss it. I
wish I wasn't too old lolol. I wanna dress up!
Mel
the WB, Angel and Whedon.
-- LittleBit [wishing they could be on the same page], 08:32:19
10/27/04 Wed
Interesting juxtaposition of articles that zargon sent me:
The WB
Wants More Angel
and
Whedon
wants out of TV.
Replies:
[> Re: the WB, Angel and Whedon. -- ZachsMind, 09:57:14
10/27/04 Wed
The first article is less dependable in my not so humble opinion
than the second one. The references to Amy Acker & Charisma Carpenter
being considered for Lois Lane in the upcoming Superman motion
picture? I've read other sources that indicate that's an unfounded
rumor.
[> Re: the WB, Angel and Whedon. -- vickie, 10:23:31
10/27/04 Wed
"...smash hit 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'..."
????
After that, I don't give the rest of the article much credence.
[> When I heard about it through spoiler-crypt... --
VampRiley, 15:34:38 10/27/04 Wed
...I was surprised and annoyed. It does piss me off. How could
they be so stupid?
VR
[> [> Um, who is it exactly that's pissing you off, and
what did they do that is so stupid? -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:04:19
10/27/04 Wed
[> [> [> Venturing a guess... -- Rob, 09:10:27
10/28/04 Thu
The WB is pissing VR off, and their stupid move was cancelling
"Angel" and replacing it with a stinker of a show.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: Venturing a guess... -- auroramama,
11:27:11 10/28/04 Thu
Or cancelling Angel, stubbornly ignoring a HUGE campaign to bring
it back, and announcing when it's far too late that gee, it would
be nice to bring it back in some form. Sheesh.
help....need thesis for classical
mythology and buffy essay -- kris,
20:50:10 10/27/04 Wed
i am a buffy fan and i am having some problems with and essay
thesis on classical mythologhy and buffy...could anyone give me
an idea...it would be greatly appreciated
Replies:
[> Contrast Buffy and Iphegenia -- Cleanthes,
08:46:32 10/28/04 Thu
Especially Iphigenia
in Tauris, although the whole story of Iphegenia-as-heroine
contrasts with Buffy's rather more empowered status, even, or
especially in The Gift.
Post the essay you write here, please!
[> [> It's Iphigenia, idiot, and why doesn't this thread
scroll away quicker? -- Cleanthes,
13:07:49 11/04/04 Thu
Angel season 1: IGYUMS
-- Kana, 00:46:17 10/28/04 Thu
In the episode 'I've Got You Under My Skin', how was the nun able
to sense that Angel was a vampire?
Replies:
[> Re: Angel season 1: IGYUMS -- Alistair, 07:42:06
10/28/04 Thu
It was supposed to be something strange... I guess in the Buffyverse,
people who have served for such a long time can sense vampires.
Joss is not a go for X3! --
Wizard, 22:23:47
10/28/04 Thu
Do not ask me why, but TPTB at Fox have passed over Joss Whedon
as the director of X3, which is scheduled to start filming next
June.
Replies:
[> Re: Joss is not a go for X3! -- skpe, 05:31:09
10/29/04 Fri
Think positive, maybe this will free him up for a Buffy movie
(skpe wildly fantasizing)
I wish they would make an
Oz Show -- Cern, 08:13:33 10/29/04 Fri
was thinking about this last night. I put on my werewolf costume
to scare the kids during trick-or-treat, and thought to myself,
how cool would it be to have a riff on LONE WOLF AND CUB, but
with an actual Werewolf?
Oz would be made the guardian of one of those "gifted"
children from season one of Angel? On the run from a evil group
(did we ever find out who made the android of Wesleys Dad? Could
expand on that plot point) who wants the Child for their own purposes.
I always hoped Oz would gain control of his Werewolf form so he
could use it in a fight.
Replies:
[> I like Oz but i'm not sure I'd hang a show on him. But
it's just MHO -- Kana, 09:17:50 10/29/04 Fri
[> I wish they'd make Oz the Series also -- ZachsMind,
13:06:36 10/29/04 Fri
Only I'd want it to be like, Seth Green plays an Oz that has traversed
the world and been to all these different places where he's picked
up everything from east asian meditation techniques to mind over
matter jamaican voodoo to just about everything one can imagine.
He comes back to the states posing as a karate instructor, but
that's just his cover. He's now a polymorph meaning that
his lycanthropy isn't limited to werewolf anymore. He can control
his appearance so well that he can change his human appearance
not only into animals but into other human beings.
He's got a class of students for whom his loyalty goes first,
but he's also been 'found out' by individuals from various forces.
People he's worked with in the past and has since tried to evade,
but now he's gotten older and he wants to settle down but that
means getting found out. For various reasons he becomes beholden
or otherwise required to assist various groups like the military,
the mafia, corporate behemoths, mystic and spiritual groups that
have helped him in the past, and other powerful or not so powerful
interests.
There would be occasional allusions to Oz's time in Sunnydale
and his relationship with the slayer and the souled vampire, but
like Angel tried to avoid Buffy plot involvement, Oz would stand
on his own with an entirely new supporting cast. If the producers
could happen to aquire BuffyVerse alumni for special appearances
or regular supporting cast that'd be great, but if SMG never made
an appearance, that'd be okay too. Oz was never about either Buffy
or Angel. He could so stand on his own.
The only drawback here is that I doubt you'd get Seth Green signed
on to do another television show. That's workable though, because
since Oz is a polymorph, he doesn't have to look like Seth Green
anymore. =)
[> [> Re: I wish they'd make Oz the Series also --
Cern, 11:49:17 11/01/04 Mon
I'll tell you whats weird. I went to a halloween party this saterday
and my friend pulled out two Lone Wolf and Cub VHS's. 'king awesome.
SMG UK TV interview with
Jonathan Ross -- Celebaelin, 15:53:35 10/29/04 Fri
Friday BBC1 10.35 repeated tomorrow (well, Sunday morning technically)
at 2.20am.
Promoting The Grudge mainly and spending rather too long on the
subject of Japanese toilets but there's definitely a sense of
fun about her that came across well. Interesting to get an insight
into her personality, even if there is a slight suspicion that
the questions to her were quite carefully controlled which makes
the subjects that did get talked about all the more intriguing,
if that's the right word. Ross is his usual jocular and abrasive
self and SMG handles it with a fair slice of grace (sushi comment
excepted). Worth a look if you're awake or take the time to set
up a tape.
Ross is a Buffy fan, genuinely I would imagine, and there's a
clip from The Prom, there to show the uninitiated the programs'
general direction I guess.
Replies:
[> Jonathan: Superstar -- Tchaikovsky, 06:43:52 10/30/04
Sat
I enjoyed listening to Sarah Michelle Gellar- she did have a vivacity
and a sense of delight that was quite charming, as well as talking
relatively eloquently.
I'm afraid my bugbears with Jonathan Ross came through again though.
Sarah's story about Japan was long and complicated but Ross kept
interrupting her for the cheap laugh. And when he touched upon
interesting subjects for a second, he barely let her voice an
opinion on a question before breaking in with his own faux-sincere
revelation.
I wish he'd let the guests talk about what's important in their
life occasionally, although I think I'm in the minority of people
who still think Parkinson is good television.
Sarah's audience-ingratiating slip of the evening "Yes, it's
true. Americans are stupid!". I suppose it plays to Britons'
puffed-up prejudices, but she better hope it doesn't find its
way back to the North American press.
TCH
[> [> Re: Jonathan: Superstar -- CW, 07:23:37
10/30/04 Sat
Americans are used to airing their own foibles. An American actress
can say such things and everyone here understands. If a foreign
actress said the same thing it might be a different matter, particularly
if a reporter took it out of context and blew it out of proportion.
Transfering cup to cup (Spoilers
Smallville Transference #?) -- fresne, 17:06:20 10/29/04
Fri
Okay, I m going to make a stab at a, But it s not about Joss,
sob, post. It s just, well, I m hardly watching t.v. these days
and yet, I want to discuss the new and there s no new Joss sob.
Well, until Serenity.
Anyway.
So, this week s Smallville Transference
This way lies like spoilers or something.
Clutching the Kryptonian symbol of transformation, water, Lionel
Luthor attempts a sea change. The son having killed his own parents,
tries to devour his son s life as he spouts meaningless platitudes
of love. What Lionel loves is power and in accidentally switching
with Clark, Lionel gets the strange combination of powers and
abilities beyond those of mortal men and the enormous weakness
that goes with them. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
In S1, Clark lost his powers for a time and it was a release.
Here, the time returns and Clark s loss of his physical power
base is literally a prison. While Lionel standing in a body of
capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound attempts to
reclaim what he considers. Money hidden in a bank account. Locked
away with a number and his mother s maiden name. The mother that
Lionel killed so long ago.
Give my recent raft of posts with rahael, huh, how fortuitous,
a water metaphor in land locked Smallville.
To briefly recap, as we were discussing Lana and Clark s attract/repel
(I find I like her so much better in the abstract). I had this
image of Lana as the Lady in the Lake/Ophelia/Peter Pan Mermaid.
Floating in the water, streaming flower petals from her fingers
as she drifts. While Clark is a sky/air boy who has not yet learned
to fly. When he does, he ll be a man my son. They elide because
that is what air and water in the normal scheme of things do.
(Yes, yes, evaporation, it s a metaphor, sheesh.)
That Lana has been mystically tattooed with the symbol for water/transition
is just, hmmm well, that s just funny. Since, even as the writers
transition her into some new glorious whatever, Lana isn t the
character that will transition.
Instead it is the boys that flew off the bridge, itself a symbol
of transition (and a frequent image in Superman stories.) that
will change into the brave new world.
There was something about the two stories that Clark tells to
prove himself.
First in Lionel s body, he tells his adoptive mother a story of
childhood, a little boy not in control of his powers gets lost
in the woods. And how his mother comforted him.
Back in his own body, he identifies himself to Lex with a reference
to that fall from a bridge into a river. Refers to their joke
about Jonathan Kent.
Chloe and Lana, locked out of all the secrets, turn away. Mysterious
Clark s been possessed, Red, a hero, one too many times and at
least for this episode, only Lex remains his friend. This won
t last, but ah, how Lana s words to Clark at the end cut, although
technically sweetheart, he s terrible at keeping secrets and pretty
good at saving lives. But I digress.
Clark is such an opaque internal character, it was interesting
to see an expansion into a much older and more confidant man.
Machiavellian. Malevolent. Brimstone from the corner of his eye.
And that liquid moment when Lionel, once more in fragile clay,
realizes that he has lost essentially Paradise and the ghostly
figure slips away into the light.
I d digress into the whole Clark/Lionel Martha Oedipal thing,
but I think a page and a half are good for now. Eventually, there
will be new Justice League and I ll really wax incoherent.
Replies:
[> Thanks for this!! -- Rahael, 14:33:41 10/30/04
Sat
Can't wait to see this ep - and, guess what I watched today? A
dvd of the Justice League "The Secret Origins". I didn't
want to buy too many as I expect the full season dvds will eventually
be released, but I wanted to see something of the show - so I
got "Secret Origins" and "Paradise Lost" which
I am saving for now.
[> Not time to write at the moment, but for now... --
Rob, 23:50:35 10/30/04 Sat
Awesome review.
And was that Martha/Lionel scene not one of the most twisted,
creepy Oedipalish scene ever? The sexuality in the Chloe scene
at the Torch office at night was also incredibly eerie, but for
different reasons.
Rob
Missed Opportunities - ME
writes it, we live it. (Warning: Political!) -- Darby, 10:02:01
10/30/04 Sat
In Season Seven, many remarked upon how the situation metaphorically
reflected the situation that the U.S. was facing in Iraq. Although
everyone at ME insists that any parallels were totally accidental
(and, with the timing of when the stories were broken vs when
things happened in the real world, they are no doubt telling the
truth), should the story of our Great Heroine at War have paralleled
the Iraq War at all?
From Joss' current political stumping, he seems to think the course
in Iraq was a huge mistake (and, just to be clear, I'm not arguing
that point at all). However, in a great many ways, Buffy WAS Bush
in her war.
The First was an essentially powerless entity whose influence
produced more damage than anything it could do directly. It had
plans, but no one knew what they were (and we still don't, really),
and the best anyone could do was guess and decide that something
BAD was going on, stuff that would cause lots of harm if left
unchecked.
And what was the enemy? Buffy / Bush's version of "The Great
Satan," someone everyone had to agree just WAS EVIL, and
who had no real motivation beyond Destruction. By linking Saddam
to Terrorism, Bush was able to extend this Pure Remorseless Evil
to the Minions, who could be dispatched without a concern for
their own motivations or rights. The Leaders of the Right Side
did a lot of speechifying, tossing about pronouncements of Doom
to convince their allies that it wasn't enough to wait, the Fight
Must Be Taken to the Enemy, a fight in which overwhelming power
could be indiscriminately wielded and the repercussions could
be glossed over and deferred.
So how does this happen? How does a creator who uses his creations
to examine Big Questions put together such a shallow look at wars
and commanders? If this story arc was to represent war, could
he really pick an Opponent so faceless, so simplistic, with such
personality-lacking soldiers? As the Enemy, could the man who
gave us the Mayor and Faith, or Glory and her worshipful Minions,
give us a cipher surrounded by a bunch or dullards? This could
have been so much better in so many ways, it could have resonated
with us rather than just reflecting a painful reality!
So, to summarize -
Mes'o'potamia (from the Daily Show) = Season
Seven Buffy
Bush & Cheney (commander & pronouncer of doom) = Buffy
Saddam & Osama = First Evil
First Gulf War = Amends
Weapons of Mass Destruction = Vague Plans for the Hellmouth
American Forces = Activated Potentials & the Amulet
Terrorists & Iraqi Insurgents = Uber Vamps & Caleb
Actual War = Finale in the Hellmouth (2 segments & a commercial
break)
Insurgents from Bad Follow-Up = Amanda, et al, dying from marching
into the Hellmouth
Casualties from renewed terrorist attacks = Death of Anya from
forgetting Bringers
Repercussions in Arab World = Many Activated Slayers loose in
the World
So how can Joss be raising money for Buffy's opponent? How can
he criticize a war that he himself designed? Would he have needed
Kerry to help him write Season Eight?
DISCLAIMERS: This is not really a political statement,
it was just that with the election looming, I was struck by the
comparisons. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Iraq War or
Season Seven, but I originally went into both with somewhat high
hopes that it would all make sense. I'd have to say that S7 came
out much better than the War did. I did vote for Bush in 2000
(but, from having the experience of living in Gore's home state
while he was its Senator, it was really just a vote for a slightly-less-empty
head over an equally-empty suit), but this pattern of tossing
Evils at the electorate and making us choose the lesser has come
back and bitten us big-time. And here we go again...
Replies:
[> Re: Missed Opportunities - ME writes it, we live it.
(Warning: Political!) -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:12:59 10/30/04
Sat
I think it's more that Mutant Enemy was telling a good vs. evil
story, quite popular in fiction and dating back a long way. Bush
simply drew on the same Good vs. Evil archetypes that have existed
for millenia for the war propoganda.
[> [> Well, yeah, but we could get that from"Charmed"...
-- Darby, 11:07:13 10/30/04 Sat
[> [> [> lol.. funny (but true) -- ghady, 13:04:51
10/30/04 Sat
[> Re: Missed Opportunities - ME writes it, we live it.
(Warning: Political!) -- Rahael, 14:36:09 10/30/04 Sat
This was both serious and amusing in just the right ways! Thanks
for posting it.
[> Does this make Spike Tony Blair? -- hebrokeaway,
15:19:03 10/30/04 Sat
Perhaps, but only if you consider The First Evil to be the Big
Bad of the season.
I don't.
To me, the character the did the most damage was "General
Buffy" (I hate that term, but people continue to use it).
She wasn't elected to this position, but she had to make the decisions
anyway. When her world was under attack from faceless (quite literally)
foes, her plan was simple: mount up. Our research is giving us
shoddy intelligence, so let's charge into battle. This gets her
soldiers killed, it brings up questions about her leadership,
and results in an insurrection.
Season Seven exposed the insecurities of the characters by manifesting
enemies they couldn't touch. You're right when you say: "The
First was an essentially powerless entity whose influence produced
more damage than anything it could do directly." Where
I disagree is: " If this story arc was to represent war,
could he really pick an Opponent so faceless, so simplistic, with
such personality-lacking soldiers?"
Season Seven was a condemnation of the Bush Administration by
portraying Buffy as the reckless authority figure waging war against
something she didn't understand. The enemy was defeated when The
Scoobies each realized and slayed their own inner-demons before
the battle. After that, the Ubervamps didn't have a chance.
There are a lot of problems with Season Seven, but being pro-Bush
isn't one of them.
[> [> I don't think so either... -- Darby, 16:13:11
10/30/04 Sat
The point I was making was that, as the current administration
reduces The Enemy to simplistic terms, so did Joss. I expect a
lack of imagination and an appeal to the lower demoninators from
politics, but not from ME. When Joss delves into war, shouldn't
there be nuance, shouldn't there be clear motivation on both
sides, shouldn't there be, I dunno, stakes of some sort?
-Other than the wooden ones...
Also, I'm in no way suggesting that Season Seven was meant
to represent, positively or negatively, the situation in Iraq
- remember, Chosen was in the can before very much actually
happened there.
[> [> [> It seems clear to me... -- cjl, 16:49:56
10/30/04 Sat
...that Joss wanted S7 to be a critique of the military mentality,
and how sometimes the scariest demons of all are a person's inner
demons--demons that shatter the boundaries of trust and fellowship.
But for one reason or another, the war mentality, personified
by Generalissima Buffy, seemed to be far better represented in
S7 than what Joss would say is the solution to it. The Scoobies
conquering their inner demons was never shown in an emotionally
and dramatically engaging fashion.
Xander's struggles against his own insecurities family's history
of abuse and emotional cruelty were criminally under-represented.
Willow was "scared of magic" for an entire season, and
then, somehow, she found the courage to perform the big mama jama
spell of them all. Where did this courage come from? (Oh god,
please don't tell me it was Kennedy who gave Willow her courage.
I really couldn't hold my lunch if you tell me that.) And Giles--can
anybody honestly tell me what was happening in our man Rupert's
brain at ANY point during this season?
As for Buffy, our poor emotionally scarred Slayer, she recovered
from her single-minded quest to slay the enemy and regained her
sense of empathy. But how exactly did she beat back Mother Superiority
Complex and come up with her idea to share the power? Was it Spike's
unwavering belief in her after her friends got sick of her attitude
and booted her out of her own house? Perhaps. But is that how
we resolve one of the stickiest emotional/psychological of the
entire series--with one of Spike's pep talks? IMO, it seemed too
easy, and had no emotional resonance.
I think Joss knew exactly what he wanted for S7. I could see him
outlining his themes in broad strokes over the course of the season.
Conceptually, there was nothing wrong with the FE as Big Bad,
because the Big Bad was supposed to be the Scoobs' inner demons
all along. But the execution of his design was so awful, that
the critique of the war mentality never came through as clearly
as the war movie cliches Joss wanted to puncture. So, to our everlasting
regret as Buffy fans, his ultimate message seemed to get lost
in the fog of war.
[> [> [> [> Exactly... alas -- Pony, 06:11:55
10/31/04 Sun
S7 is like Lego, all the pieces were there, the picture of how
it's supposed to turn out was on the box, but somehow in the construction
it turned into something else entirely.
(it's my metaphor and I'm sticking with it.)
[> [> [> [> Re: It seems clear to me... --
Masq, 11:43:43 10/31/04 Sun
Of course Kennedy gave her the courage! What does a pierced tongue
symbolize, if not courage??
[> [> [> [> [> [Sideshow Bob-style muttering]
-- cjl, 16:57:04 10/31/04 Sun
[> [> [> [> [> LOL!!! -- Rob, 14:56:05
11/01/04 Mon
[> [> [> Re: I don't think so either... (rambling)
-- Rich, 19:29:52 10/30/04 Sat
"When Joss delves into war, shouldn't there be nuance, shouldn't
there be clear motivation on both sides, shouldn't there be, I
dunno, stakes of some sort? "
In human warfare, there usually is a purpose, clear or otherwise,
& we can usually discern what it is - even if we distort it for
propaganda purposes. The First, however, was not human. If it
had been, the story wouldn't have had the epic feeling I think
Joss was looking for. If Sauron had been merely human, would LOTR
have the appeal that it does ?
The Firsts' motivation was, by its' own admission, world domination.
The stakes were pretty clear, & pretty simple.
On another note - (& this is really a respose to other peoples'
comments, not yours): potentials are being murdered all over the
world, high school students are turning into violent zombies (the
ones who aren't already), an army of prehistoric vamps is gathering
under the Hellmouth, Buffy is protecting/training a houseful of
uninvited & ungrateful guests, & her surrogate father is conspiring
with her lying boss to murder her boyfriend. Seeing her as the
villain of the piece is a bit of a stretch. Buffy's lack of empathy
is a result of her situation - in a way, she's as much a victim
as any of the others. Of course, evil can corrupt in more than
one way - maybe Joss was using Buffy to illustrate this point
- something about looking into the Abyss, perhaps ?
[> [> The Big Bad of season 7 -- LittleBit, 10:20:29
11/01/04 Mon
I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that as much as the
First Evil was put forward as the 'Big Bad' of the season, the
struggle that Buffy was really undergoing, more so that ever before,
was the one against Destiny. When we first see her in season 7,
she's having about as normal a life as possible considering that
she has that Slaying thing on the side. She's being 'sister/mom'
to Dawn, she's training Dawn to be able to at least defend herself,
and for the most part the demons and vampires are nearly back
to the kind she saw in season 1. (Which I tend to think of as
the 'first false back to the beginning').
At the same time, though, little things are breaking into the
'simpler days'...things like Willow's inadvertent magic upon her
return (which makes me think of the Master being released because
of Buffy), Buffy being unable to save Cassie because her death
was natural (Joyce), having to make the decision to kill Anya
because she was now a threat to others (Angel) and even the hidden
manipulation of Spike (the Initiative). Conversations with
Dead People was a revisiting of Spike's Yoko Factor attempt
to make everyone less trusting of themselves and each other. Except
Buffy, who in both cases was the one who had the actually enlightening
conversation.
And then. Buffy recognizes the Bringers. Giles appears on Buffy's
doorstep. He brings a small group of potential Slayers, and tells
Buffy that it's up to her to protect them. He tells her she's
facing the First Evil, a foe that can't be touched or fought with
and the fate of everyone is more or less in her hands. She's charged
with being the leader, with training the Potentials, with having
to make the difficult decisions...all by Giles. And why? Why does
all of this lie at her feet? Because she is the Slayer. She is
the Chosen One. It is her Destiny.
Over the next few months, Buffy tries to fit this mold. It doesn't
fit well, it's far too tight. In order for her to force herself
into it, she limits herself. She becomes the 'general' Giles has
told her she must be. Only (in my opinion) the only training she
seems to have had for it is from action movies. She doesn't know
what she's doing, she's trying to go 'by the book' and train the
girls as if it was boot camp, but the thing she's missing is that
she doesn't make use of trusted lieutenants. This isn't her fault
entirely. When Willow tries to locate the First and is possessed
momentarily, it frightens her enough that she's reluctant to use
magic at all. Xander has a full time job and other responsibilities.
Spike, once he's found, is trying not to step on any toes (as
much as Spike can do that). Giles is frequently gone, and when
he's there he doesn't really have any advice, other than to remind
her that all of this is now her responsibility. She can't even
argue that because she's the Slayer, it's her Destiny.
She even learns what the origin of the Slayer is. She learns what
the ancient Shadow Men did to empower the First Slayer, Sineya.
She learned that she was infused with the spirit of a demon, and
vehemently and violently refused to allow them to 'augment' her
strength by repeating it. A rejection of her Destiny, which she
then second-guessed after they-who-had-no-information showed her
the Turok-Han army being massed by the First Evil. The 'second
false back to the beginning.'
However, when Faith reenters the picture, things begin to shift
a little. Not much, because the Leader/General/Destiny charge
has been well-reinforced. But the one thing it does is it lets
the others see an alternative to what Buffy has been doing. She
knows it doesn't feel right, they know it doesn't fit her.
"Casualties. It just sounds so...casual. These are girls
that I got killed. I cut myself off from them...all of them. I
knew I was gonna lose some of them and I didn't (shakes her head,
stands up) You know what? I'm still making excuses. I've always
cut myself off. I've always (sighs) Being the slayer made me different.
But it's my fault I stayed that way. People are always trying
to connect to me, and I just slip away."
...
"I don't wanna be the one."
[Touched]
And once she was out from under that huge responsibility, she
was able, as she always did, to find in herself that knowledge
of what she needed to do. She needed to follow her own instincts,
to get out of the ill-fitting and confining role she has been
handed and allow her mind, heart and spirit to have the same freedom
as her hand. When that happened, and Buffy took The Scythe1
from the stone and away from Caleb, she was able, finally, to
face her real foe: Destiny. The ancient weapon of the Slayer,
forged by the Guardians, the females who have silently watched
over the Slayer line, and used to kill the 'last pure demon that
walked the Earth.' And Buffy, once she has used it, and felt it's
power, has one of her flashes of intuition and determines that
it could be used to empower all those who carry the Slayer potential.
We all know how that turned out.
Which brings me to the real back to the beginning:
I don't have a destiny. (nods) I'm destiny-free, really.
[Becoming, part 1]
1 That would be the axe
that was known as The Scythe. :)
[> [> [> Re: The Big Bad of season 7 -- Jane,
10:36:56 11/01/04 Mon
'Bit, you have managed to articulate my feelings about Season
7 much more intelligently than I could. I think you have it when
you say the 'Big Bad' of the season, the struggle that Buffy
was really undergoing, more so that ever before, was the one against
Destiny. I really have never understood why Buffy was expected
to be the great leader in the fight, when she had never been trained
to be anything other than "the One". When Giles tells
her that they have no other plan, that she is the plan,
I could just see the weight of the world on her shoulders. She
lived up to that plan as best she could, until she almost broke
under the strain. And then: once she was out from under that
huge responsibility, she was able, as she always did, to find
in herself that knowledge of what she needed to do. She needed
to follow her own instincts, to get out of the ill-fitting and
confining role she has been handed and allow her mind, heart and
spirit to have the same freedom as her hand.
Thanks for this.
[> [> [> [> Re: The Big Bad of season 7 --
LittleBit, 12:43:40 11/01/04 Mon
Thanks, Jane. The overall concept has been somewhere in my head
for a while, and reading Darby's post then hebrokeaway's reply,
it finally gained clarity. Glad it made sense to someone else!
[> [> [> Bit, that was brilliant! -- Rob (passing
dark chocolate to Bit), 15:01:01 11/01/04 Mon
[> Re: Missed Opportunities - ME writes it, we live it.
(Warning: Political!) -- Celebaelin, 07:36:29 10/31/04
Sun
There's a commonality in all conflicts that allows comparisons
and predictions to be made. Romans=Napoleonic French=Nazis=British
Colonialism (mainly, too widespread to be 'catch-all'!)=Chinese
occupation of Tibet=etc.
The similarity between S7 and other wars is mainly because they
are wars and are subject to common factors
Particularly in the era of LIC certain near guarantees can be
made about the progress of an occupation after the main hostilities
have ceased. I say bring on a new series dealing with the aftermath
of the defeat (or rather retreat) of the FE. There will always
be parallels though, it's just a question of whether you find
that thought provoking or a distraction.
Happy Haloween, looking forward to checking out the virtual S6
btw
[> Re: Missed Opportunities - ME writes it, we live it.
(Warning: Political!) -- anonymous, 15:22:49 11/01/04 Mon
Remember that ME set up a Cassie Newton website? there was a link
to EqualityNow.org on the homepage. the first thing you could
see when clicking on that link was a message against the war in
Irak.
Ilyria -- capt cool,
17:07:34 10/30/04 Sat
Hi all
With the news about Joss stepping away from TV for awhile I happened
upon an article that mentioned a Ilyria spin off. The web news
stated that the rumor started from an article in the angel magazine.
Did anyone happen to read that and have any details about what
it said other than the obvious? Thanks for any info.
One love
~ D
Replies:
[> I heard it was just a rumor and not true -- Angel's
Watcher, 12:31:48 10/31/04 Sun
[> [> Re: I heard it was just a rumor and not true
-- DorianQ, 16:02:43 11/01/04 Mon
Probably true that it is a rumor but possibly started by someone
in the industry to generate interest. There are very few characters
left alive in the Buffyverse that are interesting enough to base
a show around and Illyria is one of the few.
Faith is, and always has been, the front runner as someone with
enough pathos, action potential, acting ability, and respect among
the fan community to have her own show. Connor has the first three
but sharply divided the fan community adn the finale made the
implication that he is Angel's reward and as such it would be
hard to put him in peril with provoking a backlash. Wes, Gunn,
Cordy, and Anya are all dead and I don't think Joss can ressurect
any of them without getting laughed at or ripping off Dead Like
Me. A Xander spinoff could be interesting but the character has
been locked in stagnation since "The Zeppo" and it would
be hard to revive interest in him. Willow is too controversial
a character for network TV to build a show around (She's gay?
AND a witch!?!) and Hannigan's star may have risen too high in
any case. Giles already got his start for a spinoff movie but
his behavior in S7 and S5 of Angel really turned some people off.
Spike has already been transplanted and lost a great deal of dramatic
potential and failed to bring as many fans over to Angel as had
been hoped. Michelle's star is really rising as of late and Dawn
wasn't always popular with fans.
This leaves Amy Acker as Illyria. While Illyria wasn't very fleshed
out on the last days of Angel, there is still boatloads of potential
and originality about her character and Amy is a fantastic actress.
The trouble (for us, anyway) is that Hollywood got wise to that
as well. I heard from a couple places she's up for Lois Lane in
the new Superman movie (as well as Charisma Carpenter) and even
if that doesn't work, she's got an impressive reel of work from
this show alone and shouldn't be to hard up for work. As such,
tethering herself to a genre show which usually don't get any
recognition or respect and where actors are known more by their
roles than themselves isn't always an actractive proposition.
It is a steady paycheck with a show with a built in audience and
a very juicy role. Knowing that the role is in the bag helps to
alleviate those other concerns, which is why I think it IS a rumor,
but started by someone who would have a hand in making the show.
But actually, a show could be built around any of these characters
if they had the right angle. Take Xander; what would a normal
guy do when he knows what goes bump in the night; it would probably
be similar to Hellblazer. Something similar could be done for
all the characters. But Faith, Illyria, and Dawn are still the
best bets.
[> [> [> Gotta disagree about Illyria -- Finn
Mac Cool, 10:53:41 11/02/04 Tue
First off, there's no denying that a lot of what made Illyria
interesting was the fact that she was in Fred's body and had some
of her memories. Start a new show with Illyria, and that appeal
will fade away for fans of Angel after a while, and for new viewers
it will never exist.
Second, Illyria was slowly developing human emotions at the end
of Season 5. Beginning a show with a stoic character who doesn't
seem to feel anything remotely human 90% of the time would make
it quite difficult for people to get onboard.
Now, I could see Illyria maybe, just possibly, working if Fred
was reintroduced as her other side. Have Fred change into Illyria
for certain situations, kind of Hulk-ish (though less involuntary,
just to avoid cliche). But that only gives it a slim chance.
Xander might possibly have a chance, too, provided you leave enough
time between the start of the spinoff and the end of Buffy, enough
time for him to get into the solo-demon hunter role. If he seems
pretty much like he was at the end of Season 7, people will spend
a lot of time wondering how this normal guy came to be involved
with so much mystical stuff.
I don't see a Dawn or Connor spinoff working. Dawn would have
even more trouble than Xander making it believable that she'd
become involved with the paranormal world without burdening it
with a lot of heavy backstory. As for Connor, can anyone say "confusing
origin". He was a human child with superhuman powers, born
to two vampires via a divine miracle, became a teenager very quickly
due to growing up mostly in a dimension where time passes faster,
then had his past rewritten by his vampire father to give him
a normal life, only to discover his true nature and recover his
memories after about a year. I really don't think that would fly.
As you mentioned, a series/mini-series/movie with Giles was being
planned, and I could see that working; you wouldn't need to go
into a lot of explanation for how he came to be as he is, as he's
got the whole "Van Helsing" vibe going on. All you'd
need would be a few words about being recruited by an anti-evil
organization. I also agree that a Faith spinoff (if Eliza Dushku
were willing and able) would be the ideal choice.
However, I could see a Willow spinoff possibly working (provided
they ditched Kennedy, as adding the existence of Slayers to things
from the beginning could be a little too complicated). Yes, she's
gay, but she wouldn't be the first main character of a show to
be gay ("Will & Grace", for example). Add in the fact
that it's ambiguous whether she's truly lesbian or just bisexual,
and the appeal it would have both towards gay women and straight
men (the mere prospect of a girl/girl kiss gets us very worked
up), I don't think that Willow being gay would be a problem. As
for the witch thing, "Charmed" is based around three
witches, and it's in its seventh season right now (and while I
know many people here don't like it, this most recent season has
actually been above par).
[> [> [> [> Re: Gotta disagree about Illyria
-- DorianQ, 02:38:33 11/06/04 Sat
Any spinoff that is started is now going to have to stand on its
own two feet now that the parent shows are off the air. Bringing
in Angel fans would be a plus, but it would probably be better
to try and bring in new fans to watch. That was always one of
Angel's fatal flaws anyway; he was still known as Buffy's boyfriend
even when they weren't on the same show which kept him from being
taken seriously as a lead in his own right, and having BtvS on
right before didn't help matters. It wasn't until Buffy jumped
networks that Angel came into its own and I believe their were
some surveys that showed there wasn't as many viewers crossing
over between the shows as was expected. I mean, wasn't that why
they brought Spike in Season Five?
Okay, back to point: definitely agree with you on Dawn and Xander
but I don't think the origins for both are as complicated as you
think they need to be: Xander's is "I had a crush on a girl.
Turns out she was kind of a superhero." That pretty much
sums it up. Dawns even easier; "My sister's a superhero."
That's it. The last two seasons seemed to render the whole key
issue a moot point and I dont think even Joss really understands
the blood thing. If anything, it's a late season one plot point
and not something that needs to be discussed right out of the
starting gate.
The Connor spinoff would have worked out great since he actually
was given a clean slate in "Home". But then he went
and lost the clean slate in "Origin" so kiss his chances
goodbye.
The Willow idea is good, too, although I'm at a loss as to where
she could go dramtically anymore. But unfortunately, the gay thing
IS an issue. Yes, she would not be the first gay character on
network television. She would be the third, and only the second
possibly successful one. Furthermore, Will and Grace didn't actually
show Will being gay for a long time (I think his first kiss was
in the show's third year and he didn't get a boyfriend until last
year) so, as much as it really, really kills me to say it, homosexuality
is still an issue on TV. The prospect of a girl/girl gets conservative
advertisers very worked up as well. A large number of them are
pulling out of Desperate Housewives, the NUMBER ONE show on television
right now because of the mild sexual content on that show. Their
reaction to a lesbian (She is a lesbian. After what happened to
Tara, a large number of fans would scream (possibly justified)
blue murder if it were implied otherwise) int the lead role on
television would probably be similar. As for the witch thing,
it would depend on how the issue is treated. Bewitched and Charmed
both dealt with it in a very light-hearted way and if they went
in that direction, it would probably be okay. But that is a lot
of factors to calculate. If that show happened, I am SO watching,
but I don't think it will.
As for Illyria, the scenario you presented is okay but has some
flaws: first, it is really, really close to concept for the Incredible
Hulk, which is really popular and has already been copied quite
a bit(Heck, with Willow herself and her dark magic); second, it
would involve yet another resurrection in a Joss production and
that is starting to get weak and goes against the majority of
Shells, which majorly hammered the point home that Fred is gone
and isn't coming back. To then bring her back would be very dishonest
storytelling.
I don't think it is necessary for a character to be human to empathize
with them or have them entertain you. Actually, I'm part of a
play right now, Into the Woods, and the best character in the
entire production in the cow; she has no lines or hand movements,
her puppet head does not move whatsoever, yet she gets the biggest
reactions from the audience. Look at Spock or Seven from Star
Trek or the R2-D2 from Star Wars. What we need for empathy is
to know what they are struggling with or for. I really felt for
Illyria when the temple was in ruins and she/he ran back to Wesley
for direction and guidance and on the rooftop in Underneath. And
of course, she was really having moments of seemingly genuine
emotions like the hug in TGiQ and the end scenes in Not Fade Away,
so by the time a spinoff started that progression could be taken
even further if you're really worried about alienating a the audience.
I was thinking that a spinoff starring Illyria would run more
on the lines of a dramatic "3rd Rock From the Sun" (like
Once and Again was a dramatic version of the Brady Bunch) using
Fred as her own Clark Kent, which, as Kill Bill pointed out, is
a fairly unique reversal of the usual situation. The drama would
come from her internal conflict of keeping up her charade and/or
trying to regain her empire and leaving the audience guessing
which one she is really trying for.
But that's just my two cents. (Actually, that was pretty long
for me. I going to charge a whole nickel.)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Gotta disagree about Illyria
-- Finn Mac Cool, 09:02:20 11/06/04 Sat
I'm not saying the backstory for Dawn and Xander would be highly
complex, but establishing them as independent demon fighters would
be difficult. I mean, Dawn has only ever killed one vampire that
I know of, and possibly a few Bringers during Season 7; that's
it. Making it plausible that she'd be handling demonic problems
on her own would take a lot of work. With Xander it wouldn't be
quite as difficult, but he still has that Everyman quality about
him, which would be kind of difficult to remove or adapt so that
it would work with kicking demon butt.
As far as the gay thing with Willow goes, well, they were able
to do an awful lot on Buffy with it, comparitively at least. I
mean, "Seeing Red" and "Touched" had some
very non-metaphorical lesbian love scenes. Although, I'll grant
that a show centered around a gay character might be wiser to
start off on cable (which is traditionally much more willing to
carry controversial material than broadcast).
Lastly, Illyria. You make a comparison to "3rd Rock from
the Sun", but that show was (a) a comedy, and (b) had the
aliens clearly demonstrating human emotions and foibles. Illyria,
while she is capable of emotions, doesn't really express them
very often or very well. I kind of think of her like Anya: she
can certainly be entertaining, and we can grow to sympathise with
her, but that's when she's a supporting character; making her
the star would just make it get real old real fast. Could you
take 22 episodes a year where half of the scenes revolve around
Illyria? I bet Illyria's stoicism and naivete would get tiring.
There are just some characters who only really work well as part
of a supporting cast.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Gotta disagree about
Illyria -- DorianQ, 20:28:13 11/07/04 Sun
I guess I wasn't assuming that Dawn and Xander would always be
the ones doing the killing or that there would always be so much
killing to do. It would all depend on the kind of supporting character(s)
they get put with.
The situation only works on UPN (they have a standards board,
which is basically internal censorship). Those two instances got
through because producers knew they could never be repeated, "Seeing
Red" because that Amber Benson was leaving at the end of
the episode, and "Touched" because they didn't really
have to worry about getting cancelled anymore. But there definitely
were some other significant things like getting them in the same
bed in the season six premiere, the racy love song in OMWF, and
kisses in the Killer in Me. So if it was on UPN or cable then
there shouldn't be a huge problem. But then it becomes much harder
to get an audience, so it's a tradeoff.
Sorry, I thought I said that the show would be about Illyria impersonating
Fred a great amount of the time and therefore would be trying
to show human emotions and such. I believe that the 3rd Rock scenario
had a lot of dramtic potential as well. Obviously, stoicism would
get tiring. Any character that doesn't evolve will get tiring.
But I think she was starting to even before Angel ended. Once
again the supporting cast would be important. Pair her with some
average joe or jane to teach her about humanity or act as her
Quahahazon and that would already offset her inhuman tendencies.
Judging by the number of shows with quirky lead characters (Monk,
House, Law and Order:CI, all of David E. Kelley's Shows) I don't
think it would be that offputting for audiences. I guess I just
don't see a huge problem with the concept.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Gotta disagree
about Illyria -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:47:05 11/07/04 Sun
As I said, part of the problem is that Illyria doesn't do a very
good job at showing the few emotions she has. "I'm grieving
for him. I can't seem to control it." She says that with
a perfectly straight face and almost no inflection in her voice,
not to mention her reaction when she first learns Wesley is dying.
"Quirky" characters tend to behave in very animated
ways, which helps endear them to the audience. Illyria is almost
the exact opposite of animated; while she's clearly on the path
to having more in the way of human feelings, a great limitation
would be the fact that she doesn't really express them well, whereas
guys like the lead character of "Monk" or the aliens
of "3rd Rock from the Sun" tend to almost overact rather
than underact.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Illyria's
emotions -- Rich, 22:13:49 11/09/04 Tue
..tend to be pretty dark. She grieves, she destroys - occasionally
she cocks her head in confusion. She did show affection to Wesley,
but he's dead, so that doesn't help. Angel viewers look at Illyria
& see Fred, who was (IMO) the most likeable member of the team
- she was downright perky. New viewers will look at her & see
a cruise missile with legs. I don't see her carrying a series.
Grr_argh info -- Ann,
04:44:02 10/31/04 Sun
Today it is
http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/fictionary/season_6/601.html
Some lessons are invaluable.
And, if I may be one of the first to say so, THANK YOU MASQ for
your guidance and leadership on this project. This icon is yours
for the taking, abusing, however you want to treat it. Hee.
Thanks to the Grr_argh Executive Committee for all of the hidden
and huddled meetings to help produce such wondrous fantasy. Go
read, tonight, 9:00 EST. Send the kids out by themselves, they
will be ok. It is just Halloween ;-)
And thank you to all of the current and future writers, illustrators
and researchers, collators, and anything else anyone has done
regarding to this most fun project.
Yeah us.
Replies:
[> Yeah us!!! -- Masq, 09:22:32 10/31/04 Sun
*dances*
Thanks, Ann!
Thanks, all you guys!
[> [> WhooHoo! Get your popcorn ready... -- Jane,
17:34:52 10/31/04 Sun
We are so ready to go! Masq, this is going to be such fun. Thank
you everyone who is working so hard on this project. I'm excited!!
[> [> Very nice job! Just a couple of questions...
-- Ames, 07:45:04 11/02/04 Tue
Very well done, Masq et al! Nice way to get out of the alley.
Enjoying the story so far...
I'm curious about one thing: how did Angel track the dragon across
the desert?
Also a couple of technical questions about your script:
- How do you decide what's in ALL CAPS?
- Are you trying to make it a real shooting script? Are you concerned
at all about difficult effects or camera moves? (e.g., the opening
pan around the desert might fall into the category of expensive
crane shots that writers often mention being cut in the DVD commentaries)
- How are you judging the length?
[> [> [> Re: Very nice job! Just a couple of questions...
[minor spoilers] -- anom, 11:49:41 11/04/04 Thu
"I'm curious about one thing: how did Angel track the dragon
across the desert?"
Hmm. Y'know, at the beginning of Act 1 it looks like he spots
it flying away over the desert & just follows it by sight. But
in the teaser, it sounds like he's been tracking it across the
sand...where it wouldn't have left any trail if it flew away.
We caught a lot of stuff in the process of preparing this ep,
but I think you found something we all missed. Maybe the discrepancy
can be resolved. (cjl? Masq?)
However, when Angel & Illyria lose track of the dragon, my impression
is that it's because the shaman's magic is already starting to
work. It took me awhile before I realized it, though--it's not
till you get into the 1st act that you can tell the 2 of them
haven't gotten far enough from Gunn & Spike that the "sea
of sand" shot at the end of the teaser's 1st scene wouldn't
show them. Oh, & those wide desert shots are stock footage--you
think we have the budget to shoot on location? @>)
[> [> [> [> No problem -- KdS, 14:41:53
11/04/04 Thu
The dragon was probably still losing a lot of blood. Great scent
trail, maybe even a visual one.
[> [> [> [> [> oh. yeah. duh.... -- anom,
16:49:25 11/07/04 Sun
It even says there's blood dripping down the dragon's side & leg.
Gee, couldn't you have posted an answer to Ames just a few hours
earlier, before I went & embarrassed myself? Not that I'm not
glad to have a plot problem resolved...so, um, y'know...thanks.
[> It's up! It's up! -- deeva, 17:57:05 10/31/04
Sun
Yay! The first ep is *on*! I'm, like, nervous.
[> [> It almost wasn't -- Masq, 18:42:33 10/31/04
Sun
This morning, I got up and as is my habit, checked my emails and
my friend's list and the board.
Then I went grocery shopping, leaving my computer up and running.
When I got home, I tried to check my email, the board, LJ--ALL
of my web browser applications (and IM) were telling me the same
thing--they couldn't "locate that server". My internet
connection was on the fritz!
I panicked. I checked the whole DSL hookup. It seemed fine. I
considered going to work and posting from there, but remembered
I lost my key-card.
Finally, I shut down all my applications and the computer and
rebooted.
I was reconnected.
*wipes brow*
Don't *do* that to me again, you friggin' piece of siliconic &^%$!!
Then I spent the rest of the day making last-minute edits to the
script.
*bangs head on siliconic &^%$*
[> [> [> Re: It almost wasn't -- OnM, 19:08:19
10/31/04 Sun
*** Finally, I shut down all my applications and the computer
and rebooted. ***
Next time this happens, save yourself grief and do this first.
Apparently from what some computer geek friends inform me, this
is very common on broadband (the connection gets dropped for some
random reason and the computer won't automatically regain it).
When you reboot, the connection re-sync's or something.
Hope this helps!
[> [> [> [> Re: It almost wasn't -- Masq, 20:01:37
10/31/04 Sun
I'm an IT person at my day job, so I know this is a logical thing
to try, and I always suggest it to others. But I assumed that
because DSL is supposed to let you stay logged on all the time,
it would let me stay logged on all the time.
This is the first time since I got DSL that I didn't turn off
my computer when I wasn't using it. So it was the first time I
encountered the problem.
[> Tossing confetti! -- Arethusa, 17:59:23 10/31/04
Sun
I can't believe it's finally The Day!
Help with an 'Angel' episode
please!! *Spoilers* -- Donna,
01:05:35 10/31/04 Sun
Hello everyone!
Could someone please tell me which episode of 'Angel' shows the
flashbacks of Angel killing his sister and father after being
sired by Darla. Im unsure whether it's an episode in seanon 1
or 2.
Thanks!
Replies:
[> The Prodigal -- Tchaikovsky, 03:23:27 10/31/04
Sun
It's a first season episode written by the almighty Tim Minear.
Though the actual siring by Darla was shown in 'Becoming: Part
One', over on Buffy.
TCH
[> [> Re: The Prodigal -- Donna,
12:34:01 10/31/04 Sun
Thanks for that,
Very much appreciated! :-)
Angel season 5 DVD Feb. 15,
2005 -- Rufus, 16:40:58 10/31/04 Sun
TV Shows On DVD
tvshowsondvd.com
Angel - Halloween Announcement for Final Season DVDs
Posted by David Lambert
10/31/2004
In the final season, Angel has finally emerged from 200 years
of darkness, but the fine line between good and evil is harder
to see than ever!
That's the tag line for Angel - The Complete 5th Season, which
Fox is announcing this Halloween weekend (how appropriate!) for
an in-store date of February 15, 2005. Fox's information shows
that this will be released in 16x9 Anamorphic Widescreen, which
is what we would expect (please read the "Video" section
of our 4th Season review (),
as well as Creator Joss Whedon's statement for more details: tvshowsondvd.com.
Sound is in Dolby Digital Surround 2.0 for each of the English,
French, and Spanish soundtracks provided. Also found are English
and Spanish subtitles.
List price is $59.98 (CAN$89.98 in Canada), for 990 minutes that
cover 22 episodes. Among those, look for a special re-appearance
by Charisma Carpenter as Cordelia. Fox Home Entertainment hasn't
sent out the cover art yet (stay tuned for that), but here is
the disc-by-disc breakdown of episodes and announced extras:
Disc 1:
a.. "Conviction" (Part 1) - Commentary
by Writer/Director Joss Whedon
b.. "Just Rewards" (Part 2)
c.. "Unleashed"
d.. "Hell Bound"
e.. Featurette:
a.. "Hey Kids! It's Smile Time!"
Disc 2:
a.. "Life of the Party"
b.. "The Cautionary Tale of Nemero Cinco"
c.. "Lineage"
d.. by Director Skip Schoolnik,
Writers David Fury and Steven S. DeKnight and Juliet Landau.
Disc 3:
a.. "Harm's Way"
b.. "Soul Purpose" - Commentary by Director /
Actor David Boreanaz, Writer Brent Fletcher, Christian Kane
c.. "Damage"
Disc 4:
a.. "You're Welcome" - Commentary by Director
/ Actor David Fury, Christian Kane and Sarah Thompson
b.. "Why We Fight"
c.. "Smile Time"
d.. "A Hole In The World" - Commentary by Writer/Director
Joss Whedon, Amy Acker, Alexic Denisof
e.. Featurette:
a.. "Angel 100"
Disc 5:
a.. "Shells"
b.. "Underneath" - Commentary by Director Skip
Schoolnik, Writer Elizabeth Craft, Writer Sarah Fain and Adam
Baldwin
c.. "Origin"
d.. "Time Bomb"
e.. Featurette:
a.. "Angel: Choreography of a Stunt"
Disc 6:
a.. "The Girl in Question"
b.. "Power Play"
c.. by Co-Writer/Director
Jeffrey Bell
d.. Featurettes:
a.. "Angel: The Final Season" (27:15)
b.. "To Live & Die in L.A.: The Best of Angel" (8:48)
c.. "Halos and Horns: Recurring Villainy" (9:22)
d.. "Angel Unbound: The Gag Reels" (8:51)
Damn, that was good! -- dub
;o), 19:13:58 10/31/04 Sun
Just finished The First Law. No doubt about it, you've got a hit
on your hands.
Thinking about it now, I can actually see those scenes,
as if I'd watched it on TV rather than reading it.
Can't wait for the next episode!
dub ;o)
Replies:
[> Only one complaint... -- Rob, 20:29:02 10/31/04
Sun
The Divine One is not Sarah McLachlan. It's Bette Midler. ;-)
Rob
[> [> Pardon me... -- Rob, 20:32:16 10/31/04 Sun
Sarah Vaughan, not McLachlan. I am very tired.
Rob
[> [> [> Sarah V. is the Divine One; Bette is the
Divine Miss M. -- cjl, 06:58:36 11/01/04 Mon
And Barry Manilow was Bette's pianist back in the old days, when
she was the darling of the gay bathhouses of lower Manhattan.
Which brings us back to Angel again...
[> [> [> [> Heheh. -- Rob, 07:30:30 11/01/04
Mon
Where do i find First Law
-- Mahk, 19:38:46 10/31/04 Sun
I dont know where to go to find it. i keep ending up at a screen
that doestn do anythign
Replies:
[> Click on the Angel picture above these threads! --
Ann, 19:42:34 10/31/04 Sun
[> [> Re: Click on the Angel picture above these threads!
-- Mahk, 19:52:30 10/31/04 Sun
I am! and it just brings me to a page that doesnt go anywhere
with nothing on it!
[> [> [> Try this, cut and paste -- Ann, 19:57:38
10/31/04 Sun
http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/fictionary/season_6/601.html
[> [> [> http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/fictionary/season_6/601.html
-- Masq, 19:58:02 10/31/04 Sun
[> [> [> [> Re: http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/fictionary/season_6/601.html
-- Rich, 21:54:20 10/31/04 Sun
Sorry, but:
I've 1. clicked on the picture, 2. cut & pasted, & 3. gone through
the "existential scoobies" site. Each time, I reach
the "premiering here.." screen, & go nowhere. Do I need
to login somewhere, or is there something else I'm missing ?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/fictionary/season_6/601.html
-- Masq, 22:01:16 10/31/04 Sun
Try emptying your browser cache. It's possible you've been to
that URL before there was anything there, and it's giving you
the old webpage. I often have to refresh the page to get the latest
version instead of an old version.
[> [> [> [> [> [> "There might have
been a flood,.." -- Rich, 09:06:50 11/01/04 Mon
"..a landslide of mud, a fire that burned up the lines -
with thunder so loud, a black funnel cloud, a natural disaster
I know nothing about."
Thanks for your help - but still no joy ( on 2 different computers
). Other links seem to be working fine. Am I the only one with
this problem ? ( Am I the only one to quote Reba Macintyre on
this site ? )
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/fictionary/season_6/601.html
-- Rich, 10:50:09 11/01/04 Mon
Something worked - I got through. Thank you again.
(BTW - I really liked it ).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Phew! -- Masq,
11:24:15 11/01/04 Mon
I thought this was going to become a serious issue. Someone emailed
me with the same problem.
Nothing like working hard on something and then no one can see
it!
Hope you continue to enjoy it. (and see it!)
Angel 6.1 "The First
Law" (Spoilers) -- Kenny, 19:42:24 10/31/04 Sun
To borrow a phrase from "Television Without Pity"...And
Big Gay Wes is still dead. I hate this show.
OK, i don't hate this show. Not at all. And Wes wasn't really
gay, despite what S1 may have had us believe. But he's still dead.
Thank jeebus there wasn't a huge army of slayers to crawl out
of the wordwork and save Angel's hiney. That's been one of the
most mentioned scenarios on the Internet, and it would have sucked.
I'm not a huge fan of the Deus ex Dragona, but there really was
very little else to do to get our heroes out of the alley, so
it's forgiven. And the result is well worth that very minor nit.
We've moved past the lush forests of Pylea and into the harsh
desert. Are deserts required for visionquests in the Buffyverse?
Whatever, it's appropriate on quite a few levels. It's our heroes
in the open. No sewers or skyscrapers to hide themselves in. Stark
nothingness to let us better see our characters' beings. Angel
and Illyria in Wonderland. It's beautiful how both of them try
to declare their sovreignty at the table and are struck down.
And Gunn actually becomes open about him and Wes (and Cordelia's
still not forgotten...woohoo, omigod, i miss the Queen C, even
the Jasmine-possessed version...just not enough to watch Charmed
for). It was also nice to see Gunn fill Spike in on some of the
S2 antics. Those two should really sit down over some brews and
get into the details. I know Spike would be intrigued to find
out how Darla and Dru have affected Angel in the last few years.
And Spike being solely concerned with his friend's life. Spike
never has been "big picture", and he never will be.
And bless him for it. If Lindsay-posing-as-Doyle hadn't been a
fake, helping the helpless in that capacity would have been a
great role for Spike.
The desert imagery is also nice in the way it parallels the nation
of Isreal after leaving bondage in Egypt and finding rest in Canaan
(not that everything ended well after that, but the parallel is
still nice). The Fang Gang was trapped in Wolfram and Hart all
of last season. They've escaped (and not without chase...think
Phairoh's army), they're striving to reach a better place, but
they have to find themselves first (and pay for sins they committed
while serving the enemy?). Let's hope they don't spend forty years
wandering, because I would like to see them back on earth by the
end of the season.
Illyria. Feigenbaum. That made my heart leap. Fred is still there.
Fred/Illyria reminds me of Dax from DS9. The merging of two beings
doesn't invalidate the existence of either. They are both present
in the new one. Same thing here. No one, including Illyria, is
willing to admit that yet. I can understand Wes ignoring that
fact, but I find it harder to believe that Angel and Spike haven't
really considered it. Some people commented that Illyria's portral
of Fred in "The Girl in Question" was cold. I didn't
from the beginning. I think that was geniunely Fred. Illyria would
only admit to not wanting to wallow in the pain of others, but
how different is it to not wanting to cause pain to others? The
latter phrasing is more noble, but how much of a difference is
there? One possibility I saw for the start of season S6 was a
separation of the Fang Gang, with Illyria thinking the rest of
them were dead. Having nothing left, she ended up back in Texas
with Fred's parents, continuing her existence as Fred. It then
ends in the question, if you have all of the memories of a person,
if you have the emotions of that person (and Illyria surely had
Fred's emotions), if you seek refuge in the same places as that
person...are you not that person?
OK, enough rambling for tonight. As the creators of this story
have done their best to represent it as the actual S6 premier,
I've tried to frame this post the same way. No meta-references
to external happenings, just pretending it's part of the regular
series. But here's where I tip my hat to cjl, Masq, and everyone
else involved. This was really good. I've got some quibbles, but
I have with every season opener thus far, so that's to be expected.
You guys have proven two things to me. First, while deconstruction
is easy, construction isn't. While I knew you were all intelligent
people, I still had my doubts about this project, as the two things
are very different. There's real talent that went into this, and
it's greatly appreciated. Secondly, the power of fanfic. I'm not
a fan of it. It's not even quality, it's the idea. It's just never
settled well. This, though, is in the best tradition of serial
storytelling. The new authors really respect and understand what's
gone before, and they make sure that the new story logically follows,
but they're not going to retread what has already been told. You
guys already had my respect as thinkers, now you have my respect
as craftspeople.
Now hurry up and bring back Wes (I'd say bring back Cordy too,
but I understand the mandates of this project...so maybe bring
back Faith, since "Tru Calling" has been cancelled).
Replies:
[> Or to put it another way... -- Celebaelin, 20:02:37
10/31/04 Sun
Liam Muad'Dib and other tales of the Ersatz Cadillac?
(Forgive my Dune)
What next I wonder.
[> Re: Angel 6.1 "The First Law" (Spoilers)
-- Jane, 20:50:55 10/31/04 Sun
First of all, I really enjoyed this. I'm not a big fan of the
script format, but once I got going, and got into the story, all
that faded away, and I could almost see the action happening.
Great job, Masq, cjl.
I agree with what you say Kenny. It's good that the gang wasn't
saved by the Slayer army, and I like your allusion to wandering
in the wilderness as the ancient Israelis did, looking for the
promised land. I'm sure that there will be some interesting visions
awaiting our heroes...
I think there's more of Fred in Illyria than we know. I hadn't
thought of it in the way of a Dax type symbiot relationship, but
I think that could be valid.
I absolutely loved the whole mad teaparty scene.
Can hardly wait for episode 2!
[> [> C'mon Jane -- Masq, 11:14:21 11/01/04 Mon
I thought I had you trained on reading script format by now! ;
)
[> [> [> Re: C'mon Jane -- Jane, 19:22:18 11/01/04
Mon
You are managing to convert me to it! I just have to get my head
into that space - I think it's trauma from my youth, when I read
for the high school play, and blew it badly. Plays have always
been painful for me since....
Seriously, I love this episode, and I love, love, your other "TV
series"!
[> [> [> [> Re: C'mon Jane -- Masq, 09:06:36
11/02/04 Tue
Seriously, I love this episode
Thanks!
love, love, your other "TV series"!
Thanks also!
I should pimp that over here, shouldn't I?
[> [> [> [> [> You so should! -- Jane, 19:08:13
11/02/04 Tue
[> My own observations -- monsieurxander,
07:45:51 11/01/04 Mon
I. Love. This.
The format of this project is especially inspired, as the fate
of our little alterna-Whedonverse doesn't fall into any one person's
hands. When you can take the best ideas (and discard the worst)
from a group of people and stick them together, it's a beautiful
thing. Kudos.
I've always been an advocate for a Fred/Illyria amalgamation...
but it has to be done in just the right way. It's very easy to
write Illyria as a flat character, or to write her in such a way
that changes her very nature (the ending of a scenario posted
a couple of weeks ago that entailed Illyria smiling was a bit
too much too soon for me). Soul issues aside ('cause it's all
so confusing), who says that Fred's completely gone just because
Dr. Sparrow said so? So far, I feel that it's been handled very
well, with only hints that can go in any direction... At this
point, I trust this team to do some great storytelling in the
Mutant Enemy tradition.
And the Drusilla "King of Cups" reference? *orgasmates*
I've always loved the desert imagery in "Restless" and
"Get it Done," so I was especially thrilled to see it
revisited. And the "!" in the Ja!Wani was a nice touch
(the "!" indicates a clicking sound, usually associated
with various African languages, which was especially exciting
for this Anthropology student... Or at least, I'm going to assume
that's the intended meaning until someone tells me otherwise).
Is Harmony coming back? I figured she might have at least a peripheral
role since she was added to the opening credits in the last six
episodes. I can kind of understand if you choose to leave her
out, since I can definitely see how she would be hard to write
and not have her get old.
I'm anxious to see how they/you handle new characters. So far,
you haven't disappointed.
Keep 'em coming!
[> [> Re: My own observations -- CW, 08:12:55
11/01/04 Mon
Masq will have to explain the orthography and pronounciation,
but just to set the record straight it is Wa!Jani.
But, what's a little metathesis among friends? ;o)
[> [> Thanks for your kind feedback -- Masq, 11:20:01
11/01/04 Mon
It's great to know when stuff is working, and to get speculation
on future stuff!
Wa!Jani
The name is a conjoining/slightly altered version of "Wandering
Jews" which is what we were calling them in the initial stages
of the story break down. I think it's pretty transparent that
they are rather like the ancient Jews in some respects. I'm not
sure why I added in the exclamation mark instead of a hyphen or
no punctuation at all, but I like the idea of the click sound.
[> Re: Angel 6.1 "The First Law" (Spoilers)
-- Sci, 20:41:40 11/01/04 Mon
I might agree with the idea that Fred is somehow alive in Illyria,
except that this fundamentally undermines the thematic content
of "A Hole in the World." The whole point of "Hole"
was to explore existentialist mortality angst by having a death
that was truly irreversible -- Fred's body is dead, her organs
liquified, her spirit destroyed. To imply that it's a Trill symbiote
deal -- where Fred is not truly dead, but simply joined with Illyria
-- totally undermines "A Hole in the World."
On top of that, Dr. Sparrow can't stand the sight of blood. Do
you really think he could withstand torture from Wes?
Seems to me that the most accurate thing to say is that Fred's
memories are influencing Illyria's intellect and emotions, but
not to the point of creating an entirely new personality or an
entirely new entity.
[> [> Re: Angel 6.1 "The First Law" (Spoilers)
-- Kenny, 11:30:33 11/02/04 Tue
I saw "Hole" as a starting point for a discussion. Buffyverse
characters have constantly been challenged with the idea of death
and its finality. It used to be that vampires were cut-and-dried
dead beings that have memories of their hosts that influence them,
but that's it. It's driven the characters and viewers nuts over
the seasons as that concept was challenged.
Who's to say that Sparrow truly understood what was happening
with Fred/Illyria. "Experts" in the Buffyverse aren't
always accurate in their appraisals. I'm actually surprised that
the heroes gave in so quickly to the concept that Fred ceased
to exist. If I change, do I cease to exist? Personally, I consider
myself to be quite different from who I was ten years ago. But
I'm still Kenny. What is the difference between transformation
and cessation of being? Quite a bit of that is relative. You may
hear a bitter divorcee say, "He's just not the same person
I married twenty years ago." Families of people with psychiatric
disorders often struggle with the question of whether the patient
is the same person she was before the condition manifested.
JW traditionally uses absolute statements such as "Fred does
not exist" as a jumping off block to a much more murky area
of discourse; they are rarely his final statement, but rather
ideas to be challenged. Granted, there's usually not agreement
in the end, but that's kinda the point. But I believe saying that
Fred definitely does not exist is more dogmatic than anything
on JW's shows ever end up being. One of the main reasons I wanted
an S6 was the expectation that the astronaut/caveman argument
would pop back up, and the victor would be nowhere near as clear
cut as was first imagined.
[> Respectful Constructive Criticism -- ZachsMind, 10:04:47
11/05/04 Fri
For the record I really enjoy the script format. Some fanfictionadoes
prefer regular prose style but I don't cuz most of that stuff
tends to get maudlin and harlequinesque. The writer gets lost
in how a given character is feeling and what they're thinking
and actual forward momentum of plot is lessened. Not in all cases,
but more often than not in the fanfic I randomly glance at, that's
what I see. I prefer the script format because it's a much more
action oriented style of writing, and keeps things visual. Though
not impossible, it's harder for a writer to get lost in stuff
that you wouldn't actually see on the screen.
So I'm thankful that The First Law was in script format.
With that said, there were two areas in particular where I found
myself reading the script and going, how could a director possibly
convey that in the show? The first was when the old witch doctor
demon lady was putting the spider on Gunn. That was a great visual,
but there was other stuff in there where to show it without dialogue
woulda just dragged the episode down. I can't recall specifics,
but I can recall going "come on! We're losing the audience
here let's pick up the pace!" and the other time when
I had similar sentiments was near the end with the elder circle,
somewhere after Angel demands an explanation and before the Raiders
are heard outside, there's a lot of mumbling in demon language
going on and Gunn trying to interpret for the others and the audience.
It was getting bogged down. I imagine a director would have demanded
a rewrite of that scene, or called up Jane Espenson and begged
her to take a crack at it for scale. It really needed something.
There needs to be a moment when Angel and the Shaman realize perhaps
in unison that they're both after the same thing and they can
be either enemies or they can work together. Instead we have Gunn
describing that and others nodding or shaking their heads or whatever
- exposition instead of dramatic forward momentum. There's a powerful
dramatic moment here that's being lost. Don't just tell me: show
me. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
Something that kinda bugged me throughout the piece was that Gunn
could speak this demon tongue because of his big brain thing from
last season, but Angel & Spike were out of the loop. Spike knows
a lot of demon tongues and so does Angel. That's been established
before. Spike knows Fuloran (sp?) for example, as we learned with
that ep where Giles was turned into one. And Angel did alright
with Lorne's family tree at the end of Angel season two when we
met Fred. I couldn't understand why they were not able to at least
have an idea what's being said. It might have made it easier on
the audience if Spike could talk to these demon guys. I understand
the desire to make it hard on Spike for dramatic suspense, with
Gunn fading in and out of consciousness and Spike getting frustrated,
but it wasn't believable to me.
I would have liked to see a react by Spike & Angel when they land
and it's a desert in the middle of the day. Or maybe Spike reacts
like a baby thinking he's about to burn, and then he looks up
and Angel's looking down at him smiling and says, "red sun
dummy" or something. Somehow it should have been dealt with:
not every viewer would see off the bat why a vampire can walk
around in a desert without getting dusted, and instintively the
characters would have somehow reacted, being who they are. Also,
with the rumor that Boreanaz was once being considered for playing
The Last Son of Krypton, an Angel under a red star has got to
have a punchline somewhere.
Other than that criticism, it's a great read. Thanks for all the
hard work to those who bled, sweat and cried over getting The
First Law uploaded and presented to the ATPo crowd. It's appreciated.
[> [> Regarding the comprehension of demon languages....
-- cjl, 10:35:47 11/05/04 Fri
Constructive criticism always welcome, Zach. Thanks.
I'm not going to speak for Masq here, becasue our leader can do
that very well on her own. But I want to take issue with one of
your criticisms: Gunn as sole translator.
We thought about this plot point. A lot. We wondered whether the
Shaman could speak English after coming out of his vision, or
whether Illyria (or Spike or Angel) could understand the Wa!Jani
tongue. It would've made Act IV easier for everyone.
But in the end, we didn't think any of those options was realistic.
There are literally thousands of demon dimensions out there, and
to have Spike or Angel be familiar with this demon language would
have been too outrageous a coincidence. Yes, they speak the demonic
equivalents of French and German, but is it likely that they can
speak the demonic equivalent of ancient Sumerian? Proto-Urdu?
I can buy Spike speaking Fyarl because he's obviously seen Fyarl
demons on Earth. The Wa!Jani are a completely unknown species,
with no previous contact with our dimension.
Besides, part of the issue in 6.1 (as it seems to be with all
of my stories in one way or another) is the difficulty of honest
communication, even within oneself. The Act IV awkwardness in
the tent is in some ways, deliberate. But maybe we could have
trimmed it or structured it better. Something to keep in mind
for the future.
Again, thanks, Zach.
[> [> [> Re: Regarding the comprehension of demon
languages.... -- Aurora85, 20:04:21 11/05/04 Fri
I've heard other people say that Spike can speak lots of demon
languages, but I can't remember as we've ever seen proof of it.
The only 2 languages I remember Spike being able to speak are
English and Fyarl. He doesn't even speak Italian, and he's lived
in Italy a few times (as mentioned in The Girl in Question). I
think it would be improbable for him to know some really rare
demon language.
As for Angel, we've seen him speak a lot of different human languages.
But, have we ever seen him speak a demon language? Whenever he
had to converse with demons that didn't speak English, he had
Wesley, Lorne, or Gunn translate for him. As with Spike, I don't
think there's any proof that Angel would know a common demon language,
much less a rare one. But let me know if there's evidence to the
contrary that I'm forgetting.
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| November 2004