October 2004 posts
To cjl -- re NYC Gathering -- LadyStarlight,
18:19:29 10/11/04 Mon
Hi cjl! (waves)
I m posting this here because, well, I d bet a lot of ATPo ers
would like to chime in on the discussion.
I posted the Rules for a Good Gathering rather tongue-in-cheekly
a while back, but I d like to find out how the plans are going
for NYC. More specifically about places to stay (price is very
much something on my mind!) and how much stuff to do do you have
planned? I m asking this because one of the things I d do differently
(somehow) about Chicago would be to do less sight-seeing and more
hanging out with the group. A rather loose schedule seems to work
quite well for us as a group with one or possibly two activities
planned and the rest of the time reserved for just being together.
Also, the whole meeting room concept has some flaws. Really uncomfortable
chairs, for one thing! The other thing is that the A/V in the
hotel rooms seemed to be better than what we could rent. (And
as Buffyboy pointed out in Vancouver, it would have been cheaper
to pool our money and buy a good set rather than renting the hotel
s)
Would a hospitality suite or renting a penthouse suite work better?
We d still have a central meeting place, with A/V, but with a
bit more comfort in seating. (And sleeping, right, anom? ;) )
I hope I'm not stepping on your toes, but the paranoid side of
me (OMG, I won't be able to get a plane ticket!!11!) needs
to be reassured!
Replies:
[> Re: To cjl -- re NYC Gathering -- Rob, 18:57:53
10/11/04 Mon
Would a hospitality suite or renting a penthouse suite work
better? We d still have a central meeting place, with A/V, but
with a bit more comfort in seating. (And sleeping, right, anom?
;) )
I like that idea!! Comfortable and comes with A/V equipment...What's
not to love? Also, we aren't so many that a suite would be too
cramped.
Rob
[> [> Re: To cjl -- re NYC Gathering -- LadyStarlight,
19:03:31 10/11/04 Mon
Right. This was something that Bit and I were tossing around and
came up with. We also talked about the possibility of renting
a penthouse suite, with 3 or 4 bedrooms and a living area. (because
to me, a hospitality suite and a penthouse suite are different)
(also, Bit wants to know how come you're not in chat?)
[> [> OT to Rob -- LittleBit, 19:03:47 10/11/04
Mon
Ummm, Rob? This is the board. Chat is a different thing,
and currently Rob-less.
[> [> Re: To cjl -- re NYC Gathering -- Jane, 18:22:43
10/12/04 Tue
That's a great idea, LadyS. I think that would be much more to
our liking; we don't really seem to be a formal board room type
group!
I too would like more info, since I have never been to NYC, and
am a wee bit nervous about going to such a huge city!!
[> [> [> Don't worry, NY newbies...I will protect
all of you! -- SuperRob ;-), 19:53:28 10/12/04 Tue
[> [> [> [> Then you can come find me at the airport!
;) -- LadyStarlight, 20:16:32 10/12/04 Tue
[> [> [> [> Thank you, kind sir! I'll be relying
on your superness. :-) -- Jane, 17:55:55 10/13/04 Wed
Happy Yam Sham to all Canadians!
-- cougar, 19:43:50 10/11/04 Mon
Replies:
[> Re: Happy Yam Sham to all Canadians! -- LadyStarlight,
19:56:21 10/11/04 Mon
We had no yams, sadly, do turnips count?
Angel, Season 2 eps 12-14
-- Masq, 12:20:23 10/12/04 Tue
Intro thoughts on 'Noir Angel'
While the "Noir Angel" episodes were unfolding in season
2, it was an open question where Mutant Enemy was going with it.
Because the writing was muddled on a couple of issues-- (a) what
Angel's goals were and (b) what his psychological state actually
was.
Earlier in the Season, Wolfram and Hart had made it (more or less)
clear that they wanted souled Angel "dark". And then
Angel let Darla and Drusilla kill the lawyers and he fired the
gang and he set Darla and Drusilla on fire and it seemed he might
be indeed going dark. Dark as in "evil" or at least
REALLY morally ambiguous, though?
Well, no. M.E. couldn't really give the protagonist/hero of their
show a truly "dark" period without alienating
a good portion of the audience. The days of Angelus going on killing
sprees as he did on season 2 of BtVS were over. Even when Angel
was Angelus in season 4, we didn't actually see him *kill* anybody.
We had to assume it.
During the Noir Angel period (Redefinition-Epiphany), Angel didn't
really do many truly dark things. In fact, he was still
basically a good guy. He gave the 2 million dollars to Anne, he
helped save the world from being perpetually frozen in time, and
he stopped some zombie cops from attacking people.
So what was different? Well, he was cut off from his crew. He
fired them because he "felt the darkness coming on"
(so he says in "There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb", and
he didn't want them near it. But that didn't mean he feared going
evil. I think what he was trying to do was take what darkness
he'd been feeling and use it, channel it, to become the sort of
ruthless opponent who he believed would be capable of defeating
Wolfram and Hart. Sort of like when Darla and Drusilla gave Holland
the massacre he asked for by massacring him and his colleagues.
Angel would give W&H the darkness they wanted by aiming it at
them.
And so we get the debate I mentioned in my previous
review, about "The Good Fight" strategy of the gang
vs. the ruthless "Total War" strategy Angel espouses
in Redefinition.
So *did* Angel indeed become more ruthless?
Blood Money
One thing I remember about the Season Two Noir Angel arc was the
disappointment of some fans afterwards. I think they really expected
Angel to become truly dark, or at least do *really* questionable
things, and he didn't, and so the result ends up looking more
lame than anything from that perspective.
And ME sort of asked for this response by sending the fans mixed
messages. For example, "Blood Money" starts out with
Angel apparently stalking a young woman who runs a homeless shelter.
*Gasp*! He's returning to form as Angelus! But then, no, he's
actually trying to determine her connection to Wolfram and Hart,
so he can proceed to play a mind game where he manipulates Lilah
and Lindsey like marionettes.
Angel was "throwing out the old rules" of the Good Fight
and going back to an even Older set of rules. He was a master
at game-playing as Angelus. Up until "Reunion", Angel
had been so tightly wound with duty and honor, it must have been
a relief to put that aside for a while and just... make fools
of his enemies for the sake of making fools of them. Let Cordelia,
Wesley, and Gunn fight the good fight. Let Boone prattle on about
honor.
Later in the episode, we get Nathan Reed's exposition FINALLY
explaining why Wolfram and Hart's attitude towards Angel has changed
from "let's kill him!" to "let's torment him until
he goes dark!" It seems that somewhere after Five By Five,
the firm found a prophecy that indicated that the Vampire with
a Soul would be a "major player in the Apocalypse".
However, the prophecy was murky on whether he would be on the
side of good or evil. W&H want Angel playing on their team when
the time came, hence the change in strategy.
But by having Nathan Reed reveal this now, during the Noir Angel
arc, we are *again* led to expect that M.E. might make Angel actually
go dark this season, that that's the arc they're building.
As for the prophecy itself-- I get why M.E. introduced it. They
needed a plausible reason why W&H didn't just kill Angel outright.
The problem is, this new prophecy is hard to reconcile with the
Shanshu prophecy. Will Angel fight many battles on the side of
Good and earn his humanity (Shanshu), or will Angel possibly go
dark and fight on the side of evil in the big final battle? I
struggle to make sense of both prophecies in an
essay from season 5, but I don't really succeed in resolving
the contradiction.
Enough about Angel.
Blood Money marks the start of a wonderful friendship - Gunn-Wesley.
It's too bad that fell apart in season 3, although I still felt
the connection between them even in season 5. I think that friendship
was another one of those things we can look to for "the Making
of Wesley". Those two came from such different backgrounds
and had such different strengths, that Gunn's growing respect
for Wesley was bound to have an impact on him. It's like, hey,
this cool street fighter thinks I'm cool. He'll even fight by
my side instead of calling me a "pansy-ass British Guy".
One thought before I leave this ep:
I miss the days when the thought of dating Cordelia made Angel
crinkle up his brow and say, "God, no." She could be
a friend, a very challenging friend, but she just didn't seem
like his type.
Happy Anniversary
Could this episode be more filler? And do people get as annoyed
as I do by long scenes (more than one of them) which contain no
regular or recurring characters, but just the guest stars of the
week? At any rate, this episode presented a very muddled picture
of graduate school. It's like it was written by two people, one
who knows what academia is/graduate students are like, and one
who doesn't have a *clue*.
What did work for me in this episode was the Lorne-Angel friendship
that was developing.
When I was writing about the Gunn-Wesley friendship that started
in "Blood Money", I wondered, "why do Wesley and
Gunn become so tight? Why not Wesley and Angel, or Gunn and Angel?
I mean, besides the obvious, "Angel is blowing them all off
at the moment" thing. Other than the five episode stint of
the Noir Angel period, Angel hangs with these guys and yet he
becomes friends with Lorne in a way he doesn't with the other
two.
I think Lorne provides something for Angel the other two don't.
With Gunn and Wesley, Angel sort of has a tough-guy barrier he
never quite puts down the way he does with Lorne. Maybe it's that
Lorne doesn't need Angel to be strong for him. Gunn and Wesley
sort of rely on Angel to be, well, rather manly. Lorne wants to
cut through that B.S. to the heart of what's bothering Angel.
He's always the one that sees Angel's soft side, and demands to
see it, really.
He's the one who can see what Angel is up to -- giving up caring,
the "good fight" model of the champion business for
"hunting down the guilty" - the ruthless model of the
champion business.
Plus, there's always Wes and Gunn are both human and Angel and
Lorne are both demons thing.
Anyway, representing the "Good Fight" side of the Noir
Angel arc is, of course, the gang. Cordelia, Wesley, and Gunn.
They keep the agency going without Angel. At the time this episode
aired, I was left wondering about their motives. It seemed to
me like Angel and his mission had been the thing that drew them
all together. Now they needed to find a reason to go without him.
I get why Cordelia was still doing this - she had the visions,
they were not going to just go away. But she's also personally
committed at this point. It's become part of the way she thinks
of herself. She doesn't explain this until "Disharmony",
but helping people is making her feel good about herself in a
way simply being beautiful and popular never did.
Wesley is in this because it's his career. He's schooled in the
supernatural and has trained all his life to be part of the good
fight. That's what he does.
Gunn is the puzzle, though. Why is Gunn still hanging around with
Cordelia and Wesley? That was always a problem for me. Why didn't
Gunn return to his old crew at this point, *before* he started
bonding with Wesley? Why does he end up at Caritas in "Redefinition"
like his life has no alternatives for him because Angel left?
One last thought on "Happy Anniversary": While Lorne
is trying to recruit Angel to stop Gene from ending the world,
he has this line, "And the British boy, he's going to be
playing a huge--" Lorne almost reveals what he knows of Wesley's
destiny, and he says it in a way that makes you think it's a positive
thing. We've seen Wesley's entire future at this point. What do
you think Lorne saw?
The Thin Dead Line
I wish I knew more about the politics of Los Angeles and the history
of ambivalence the people of the area have with the L.A.P.D. Because
this is actually a real factor in the mood and the character of
the city, and I'd like to say some wise and informed things about
it. All I know is, Mutant Enemy knew what they were doing when
they introduced a cop character to be both helper and nemesis
to vigilante do-gooder Angel, and they could have REALLY brought
some trouble down on themselves if they'd handled their characterization
of the L.A.P.D. and Kate wrong.
In a city where there have been numerous highly publicized cases
of alleged police brutality, indifference, and incompetence, having
an episode where L.A. cops are mindlessly brutal zombies is a
powder keg of sorts. But M.E. gives a pretty balanced view of
both the police and the citizens of the city.
The whole zombie thing arises because of the
cops's frustration over the level of crime they are facing and
the dangers of doing their job that go unappreciated. A police
captain raises cops who have died in the line of duty and sends
them out to enforce the law. It's a brilliant metaphor, because
-
on the other hand, the zombie cops do so mindlessly, without heed
to that pesky little thing called Due Process that constantly
ties their hands. And as Kate points out, they bring the crime
rate WAY down. Hey, if you harass everybody, including the innocent,
you'll pretty much have all the guilty covered.
The depiction of the citizens is also believable. On the one hand
you have Gunn, Rondell, and George who are just earnest kids trying
to help their friends. George freaks out when he thinks he's killed
a cop. Not just because he'll get in trouble, but because he's
just not the sort of person who would think it was OK to do that.
And then there are citizens that are just thugs, like that kid
with the gun in the shelter, who don't care about the consequences
of their actions as long as there's something in it for them.
On Wesley: I've been talking in these reviews about "the
Making of Wesley" and one thing I definitely forgot about
was him getting shot in this episode. I think it toughened him
considerably--the struggle to stay alive until he could get medical
attention, living in recovery for months.
And of course, helping Wesley, trying to get him to the hospital
in the midst of danger and keeping him alive, tightened the bond
between Wesley and Gunn bond more. I miss that friendship.
And now for the RANT.
I was talking about with someone the other day -- about an annoying
plot device that falls within the province of bad writers, and
therefore is really beneath Mutant Enemy. And that is keeping
characters in conflict with each other by having them conveniently
misunderstand each other or having them be conveniently misinformed
about each other.
When Anne comes to visit the gang in their new offices, she mentions
meeting Angel. But instead of telling them he eventually helped
her out (she doesn't need to mention the 2 million that she's
sworn to secrecy about--she can be vague) she leaves them with
the impression that Angel only used her to screw with Wolfram
and Hart.
This justifies the gang's continued feeling that Angel isn't worth
wasting their time with, and we end up with Cordelia giving Angel
the cold shoulder in the hospital when he comes to see Wesley.
That's manipulating the audience, and it's annoying. [/end rant]
Replies:
[> Re: Angel, Season 2 eps 12-14 -- Jay, 19:01:03
10/13/04 Wed
Although I was already a Joss addict, and I was already taping
episodes, these are the ones that made me separate the tapes from
the ones I was using for BtVS. I also stopped taping over previous
AtS episodes about this time also.
Final thought on your final thought for Blood Money. When a guy
pretends a very hot girl that he respects could be a friend, he's
still pretending. Like you like to point about about Angel and
Lindsey, it's all about the sex. Only in this case it happens
to be about Angel and Cordy.
[> [> See, that seemed genuine to me -- Masq, 19:57:22
10/13/04 Wed
Like the very idea was just, "WTF?"
Not because he's not attracted to her physically, but because
her personality is
"WTF?"
Not his type.
[> [> [> Re: See, that seemed genuine to me --
CW, 07:48:33 10/14/04 Thu
I agree with Masq on this one. It doesn't matter how hot she seems
to some other guys, if she's just wrong to get involved with for
you. Cordelia was seriously not Angel's type, early on.
As I've said before it was a big stretch for ME to get Angel involved
with Cordy concidering their history. In fiction I can accept
it. In real life the chances would be very slim. Being friends
was a much more believable option.
[> [> [> Re: See, that seemed genuine to me --
dlgood, 08:54:26 10/14/04 Thu
I thought they had such a sibling vibe...
[> [> [> [> Re: See, that seemed genuine to me
-- Masq, 09:26:00 10/14/04 Thu
I thought they had such a sibling vibe...
Word. The annoying, shallow, but often right, younger sister,
and the dorky, thick-headed older brother.
[> [> [> [> [> I resemble that remark! --
Dlgood, 10:50:25 10/14/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I resemble that remark!
-- Masq, 11:26:20 10/14/04 Thu
In my case, it was the annoying, intensely intelligent, and always
right younger sister and the shallow, thick-headed older sister.
; )
does anyone else think that
the whole guardians/scythe storyline was a bit contrived? --
ghady, 10:51:19 10/12/04 Tue
it was too deus ex machina for my taste.
there should've been a more continuity-related way to stop the
first.. sthg maybe relating to dawn's keyness?
i dunno..
but i didn't care that much for the "oh btw, we are women
who have watched over the slayer for eons but decided to help
you just this once" thing.
i'm just glad that the writers adressed that issue. (buffy and
giles both said sthg along the lines of "how could this exist
w/o us knowing??")
Replies:
[> Can you say "McGuffin"? -- Ames, 12:14:06
10/12/04 Tue
[> it was, but... -- Rich, 12:15:07 10/12/04 Tue
The writers needed:
1. Some way to kill Caleb, beyond simple "Buffy gathers her
inner strength & wins by superior willpower" - that one had
already been used against Angelus.
2. Some way to activate all the Potentials - if a simple spell
could do it, they could have done it weeks earlier.
The Scythe served both purposes - but once it's introduced, it
has to be explained, hence the Guardian (the CoW didn't know about
the Scythe because the Guardians had hidden it ). My personal
opinion is that the last episode ( maybe the last 2 ) really should
have been 2 hours long - they didn't have enough time to include
everything they needed to, & some elements were shortchanged as
a result, the Guardians among them .
I've never read Fray - was the Scythe introduced there ?
[> Check out Slayage Online for an in-depth analysis of
this -- shambleau, 12:34:01 10/12/04 Tue
In Issues 13 and 14, which were just put online, James South has
an article on the philosophical consistency of season 7. He makes
a case that the scythe/guardians HAD to be outside of the standard
narrative and seem inexplicable. You'll have to read the whole
article to get his full point, but it's a fascinating read.
[> Re: does anyone else think that the whole guardians/scythe
storyline was a bit contrived? -- Alistair, 15:02:04 10/12/04
Tue
The thing is, the guardians and the Scythe were unnecessary before
the end of Season 7. Only then was the line of slayers attacked,
only then Buffy faced off against an evil which had a very good
chance of taking over the world (other apocalypses aside, it actually
had an army and wiped out most of the potentials and most of the
watchers). The Guardians also hoped that such an evil would not
rise again, after the slayer killed the last pure demon to walk
the Earth. The scythe was hidden and the guardians died out, except
for one to give Buffy a message and tell her what the scythe was.
I think everything worked out perfectly. Because the scythe had
the potential to make every potential into a slayer- it had to
be created with that Plan B in mind whenever it was made.
[> Honestly, I don't think it was any more "contrived"
than S4, 5, or 6 finales -- BrianWilly, 12:24:06 10/13/04
Wed
In "Primeval," all of a sudden there's a spell that
turns Buffy into MegaultrasuperBuffy with additional Giles, Willow,
and Xander bonus stats. Yay! Now we can defeat Adam!
In "The Gift," we coincidentally find out that there's
only a select time frame for Glory to perform the bloodletting,
which is a pretty massive loophole. Also, Olaf the Troll is suddenly
a god. Yay! Now we can defeat Glory!
In "Grave," all of a sudden there's an ancient demoness
temple under Sunnydale with the potential to incinerate the earth.
What, it's that easy? Wouldn't every dark sorcerer with Apocalyptic
pipe dreams have been on the first flight to Sunnydale then? Well,
maybe they were.
And with Angel Season 4...well, it's best not to go there what
with the countless sudden revelations that had nothing to do with
established continuity.
Now, don't get me wrong, I usually have no problem with any of
these last-minute revlations and loopholes, and I do think that
maybe Season 7s loopholes were a little more drastic given the
severity of the danger they were in. But I'm just pointing out
that the deux ex machina is nothing new in either series.
[> [> Re: contrived elements in AS4 -- ghady, 11:03:26
10/14/04 Thu
Hmmmm..
Yea, AS4 had some deus ex machina to it (or a lot, depending on
how u look at it)..
to me, nothing seemed more contrived than connor killing jasmine--i
mean wtf?! i get that he and cordy were her "tethers"
to the world, but still!!! it would have made MUCH more sense
for cordy to have woken up from her coma and kill jasmine (but
we all know why THAT wasn't possible)..
the "power of the name" thing, i thought was very far-fetched
at first, until i read some episode reviews and picked up on some
subtle foreshadowing in perv eps.
[> [> [> Importance of Names in Buffyverse --
Kenny Abernathy, 12:07:08 10/14/04 Thu
I was wondering if anyone here knew of essays written on the signifance
of names and how it's been used as a plot element on BtVS and
Angel. I have to admit that I really didn't like the concept when
it was first brought up on the show (and other places in fiction).
The concept just seemed a bit week. Then I was talking to my landlords,
who are Buddhist, and they said that part of defining reality
is that everything that exists has an idea and a name. These two
attributes make up a thing. I'm not sure I have that totally right,
as I haven't had time to read up on it myself, but the idea is
fascinating. One of the major reasons I'm in neuroscience is that
it's one way of understanding the universe around us and how reality
is created.
What's the first mention of name as an important attribute in
the Buffyverse? The first I can think of is Glory, as her real
name was too magnificent for mortals to know (or something like
that). Of course the First Evil, which does not seem to possess
a true name, is the one enemy that can't be destroyed. It's plans
can be stopped, but it will always exist, as it's pure idea. And
knowledge of Jasmine was incomplete until her true name was revealed.
At that point she could no longer hide herself, and people were
able to know her in her fullness. Again, any pointers to articles
already written on this subject would be appreciated.
[> [> [> [> The Power of Names -- nibblet,
15:41:22 10/14/04 Thu
I got this from a website about Egyptian mythology:
Names in ancient Egypt were very mystic and powerful. It was
thought that if you inscribed your enemies' name on something,
then broke it, that enemy would either be afflicted, or possibly
die. If you knew a name you had power. In the same respect, using
a name could be beneficial.
Full article here http://www.touregypt.net/gods1.htm
As far as I can remember, names were also very important in other
traditions, such as in British folklore. Knowing someone's or
something's true name meant you had power over them. Likewise,
it was often important not to reveal your true name to anyone
or anything who might be able to do you harm.
Here is another interesting article about the power of names in
Egyptian mythology, more specifically a retelling of a story where
Isis tries to find out the secret name of the god Re in order
to gain power:
http://www.philae.nu/philae/NameofRe.html
I'm still trying to find an article that deals with this concept
in more depth, when I do I'll post it here.
[> [> [> [> [> I think the Hebrew Kabbalah also
believes this. -- BrianWilly, 19:38:58 10/14/04 Thu
As in, "sacred names" also carry great importance in
there. I'm not too sure, though. Trying to read up on the Kabbalah
with no actual spiritual experience is like trying to decipher
nuclear physics with an elementary school education.
I do know for a fact that in some parts of ancient Japan, children
were given two names at birth...one is the name that you use normally,
and the other is your true name which only your parents know,
because it was believed that if anyone knew your true name, they
held completely power over you.
It's always interesting to study all these difference ancient
cultural backgrounds and find so many very similar beliefs
throughout them all. It suggests that these beliefs were not founded
in myth but in at least some small semblance of reality. I'm certain
that ME was aware of some of these historical tidbits, when they
introduced that aspect of Jasmine.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think the Hebrew
Kabbalah also believes this. -- nibblet, 16:01:54 10/15/04
Fri
It's always interesting to study all these difference ancient
cultural backgrounds and find so many very similar beliefs throughout
them all. It suggests that these beliefs were not founded in myth
but in at least some small semblance of reality. I'm certain that
ME was aware of some of these historical tidbits, when they introduced
that aspect of Jasmine.
Definitely. The idea that language can create something entirely
other, and can have power is something that seems to pervade almost
all societies, including ours if you think about it. Think about
the way mothers often call a child by their full name, middle
name and all, when they're in trouble :-P
I think the feeling was that a thing and its name were not separate
but inextricably linked, so that to know the name of something
was to know the thing itself.
I don't know much about the Kabbalah specifically, but here's
an interesting article relating to Jewish beliefs relating naming
God:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/yahweh.html
[> [> [> [> [> The power/magic of knowing one's
true name is also a major element of LeGuin's "Earthsea"
novels. -- Rob, 11:57:48 10/15/04 Fri
[> Re: does anyone else think that the whole guardians/scythe
storyline was a bit contrived? -- Matthew Wilson, 12:59:51
10/14/04 Thu
I think the scythe thing was reasonably well signposted and built
up over the previous few episodes.
The real 'deus ex machina' is the amulet.
[> [> very true abt the amulet.. wish it was set up more
like the Dagon Sphere in S5 was.. -- ghady, 13:03:32 10/14/04
Thu
[> A small MacG. -- cjc36, 10:25:42 10/15/04 Fri
DELURKING
I think JossCo was running out of time, with the announcement
of SMG's departure coming. No way to know how S7 would have played
out if there had been an S8 - would they've destroyed SunnyD?
I do think the 'bolts' were showing in S7 a bit, throwing off
the usual balance of having cake - the enjoyable one-hour eps,
with the eating it to - the seasonal arc. It seemed like legions
upon legions of extras - the potentials - were taking up screen
time.
As far as the guardian - a brief POV shot of someone looking out
for Buffy in an early S7 ep would have been kinda cool. I mean
they were showing potential murders from the opening of Lessons,
so it's not unheard of clue-laying.
RELURKING
[> [> I dunno... -- BrianWilly, 11:52:55 10/15/04
Fri
I very distinctly remember, months before Season 7 began, that
Joss had hinted at this possibly being the final season. I wish
I could find the article now. Obviously, it's not the same as
when Sarah finalized the decision mid-season, but I don't think
it's true to say that they all of a sudden decided that there
would be no eight season halfway through. I think, contrary to
rampant hostile rumors concerning SMG, that they decided a long
time ago.
If you watch closely, it's actually quite clear that the makings
of a final season were obvious from the very first episode of
the season. Joss himself said that he knew from the start where
he wanted to go with this season and with the Potentials eventually
becoming full Slayers...how would the show have continued with
dozens of Slayers instead of just Buffy? I mean, it would have
been great canon, but I don't think it would make for a show in
itself.
[> [> [> Re: I dunno... -- Jane, 19:27:59 10/15/04
Fri
I am quite sure that I read an interview with Joss in which he
clearly stated that it was his decision that season 7 would be
the last. I'm sure Sarah's decision was part of it, but I don't
think it's fair to say that she was the only reason the show finished
at 7 seasons.
Are the Wolf, Ram, and the
Hart really all powerful? -- megaslayer, 08:34:31 10/13/04
Wed
We have seen they have control in other hell dimensions but do
they control them all? How Big are their armies? A few million
demons/humans/entities. How much of an impact did Angel's crew
have on power on Earth? I think it was pretty great to unleash
a army upon them.
Replies:
[> Why "Wolf, Ram, and Hart"? -- Loki, 09:42:43
10/13/04 Wed
Why those three animals? Is there a mythological symbolism I'm
missing? Just because it could double as a passable name for a
law firm? Lion, Tiger, and Bear was already taken?
[> [> Re: Why "Wolf, Ram, and Hart"? --
Alistair, 12:40:28 10/13/04 Wed
The Wolf Ram and Hart are known by this name to even Illyria,
long before the law firm existed. This must be their name, some
sort of triumvirate of power- three entities, once weak, now powerful,
or three tribes of demons. We know that they reside in a dark
dimension of some sort and that once they were barely above the
vampire in the Primordium of Illyria's time.
Their power was never shown on a global scale- since their instrument
on Earth, the circle of the black thorn, was located in LA, but
we can assume that they had plans to drive the Earth deeper and
deeper into the apocalypse- but what apocalypse, we do not know.
They are not fond of the Old Ones, not fond of true apocalypses
in which the Old Ones come back and wreak havok. They dont like
the First evil, they don't like any group which plays on their
time table.
The Wolf Ram and Hart use a conduit to communicate with the humans
who serve them. The condiut was once Mesektet, who said, "we
like trouble but we hate chaos". The Wolf Ram and Hart, thus,
represent evil as order but not evil as chaos. They can also communicate
with their employees directly, when Lilah spoke with Mr. Suvarta
(my own finding, suvarta backwards is atrovus- atropos (death
in greek), atrava (poison in Russian).
The wolf, ram and hart are also animals which are unmistakebly
primal mammals. Illyria said that in its time, nightmares walked
among them- I'm assuming horse like demons which laid out the
worst fears of their victims as they scewered them. In primordium,
a strange place indeed, it is possible that the wolf ram and hart
were wolf, ram and hart, three beings resembling these animals
in some way, and they became known as such.
I wonder if it was them who exiled the demons and thus themselves
so that they may one day inherit Primordium and rule the humans.
Weak in power, but ingenious and truly evil.
[> [> [> Zach attempts to decipher the secrets behind
Wolf Ram & Hart.. -- ZachsMind, 17:04:30 10/13/04 Wed
I'm no serious student of world religions but in what little I
do know, I recall they're three animals which are prevalent in
most if not all theologies of human kind. So Whedon was probably
hoping to hint at a very old evil when he came up with the name
(or whoever on his staff did. Not sure how the creative insight
occurred in regards to early Angel episodes). For some reason
the name "Wolfram & Hart" reminds me of the Rolling
Stones' insert album cover for Goat's
Head Soup. I don't know why but it conjures that combination
in my head. Whether or not Whedon knows the words to "Can
You Hear The Music" I could not say.
Sometimes you're feelin' you've been pushed around
And your rainbow just ain't here, Don't you fear, don't you fear
When you hear the music, trouble disappear
When you hear the music ringin' in your ears
Can you feel the magic floatin' in the air?
Can you hear the magic? Oh, yeah, yeah
Could be used in a commercial for a lawfirm that lacks taste.
Three separate "heads," two of which get merged for
purposes of making the name sound like that of a law firm, or
perhaps it's supposed to bring up a picture of a wolf and a ram
fighting over a hart. Or maybe the wolf already ate the ram, and
is chasing after the hart. But certainly at least in the beginning
the three were separate entities.
The wolf's undoubtedly a predator. The hart's without question
prey. The ram is kinda a cross of the two. Generally it's a herbivore
and therefore prey to a wolf, but if you've ever seen a goat lock
horns with something, it's pretty darn feisty. It's the wild card.
Predator, prey, and unpredictability. Not chaos, because the ram
isn't chaotic. It's just difficult to predict its next move.
We assume from the Angel series that W&H is evil incarnate, until
we see in season four that W&H is for order, which isn't quite
being evil. True evil embraces chaos. W&H purposefully gave the
L.A. chapter reins to Angel because they learned from the fights
with The Beast and Jasmine, that while they're not always on the
same side of the chess board, Angel would serve them better helping
them keep order rather than risk succumbing to chaos, because
Angel thinks he fights for the good, but he's often fighting against
The End Of The World in its many varied forms. So in a round about
way, Angel and W&H are after the same thing: survival of humanity.
Angel's motive is idyllic, noble, and not very realistic or materialistic.
W&H's motive is very materialistic and selfish: they need
humans so they have commodities to barter with the demons, and
at times vice versa. As we learned when Lindsey lost his arm and
got it replaced, W&H sees the human race as cattle, and occasionally
fodder.
So W&H wants order, but they want to be able to orchestrate that
order. As Masq more eloquently delineates throughout her website,
there's a difference between Evil as Chaos and Evil that seeks
Order. In W&H's case they are selfish in their desire to master
the power that maintains that order, but not to the point of giving
in to chaos, because doing so means they'd lose everything, and
where's the fun in that?
At the end of Angel season five, we're given to believe that the
L.A. chapter of W&H is controlled by the Circle of the Black Thorn.
This group may have been the group controlling all of the chapters
throughout the Earth, but I got the feeling they were more like
middle management. Was the Italy chapter represented in the Black
Thorn just before Angel destroyed them all? I can't remember.
At any rate, the Black Thorn may have been important cogs in the
wheel, but W&H probably survives Angel's little temper tantrum.
The force behind the Black Thorn is ancient, older than Illyria.
It transcends the Buffy/Angel WorldLine. The force may be multi-dimensional.
They may have had Glorificus' two partners as clients, which is
why Glory got stuck here, cuz she just didn't hire decent representation.
The force in question may or may not be evil. It does however
represent some form of order. It dates back to the dawn of time
when demons ruled the Earth and a lone female was endowed with
the power to slay that evil and push it back to where it came.
And wonder of wonders! That first slayer was endowed with those
slayer powers by whom?
Three old guys. Three guys whose names we don't know, do we? Three
guys who weren't necessarily evil, but let's face it they were
trying to stick that black gooey thing floating in the air into
Buffy's various orifices. That wasn't very nice. I think if allowed
to continue uncancelled, or if they ever get around to making
a movie that puts Buffy & Angel together, it'll be revealed that
the power of the Slayer stems from the guys who originated Wolf
Ram and Hart.
But then I also think Amy Madison is secretly The First Evil,
and I believe Jonathan's gonna come back from the dead, so I don't
know doo squat.
[> [> [> [> Okay, must see the rest of the series
-- Loki, 20:55:58 10/13/04 Wed
I haven't seen A5 or B7 yet; just go into them this year, and
have been watching them on DVD, so some of my questions will probably
be answered by the two upcoming seasons.
I've seen it around, though, that Buffy is in Italy at end of
S7; is WR&H in charge of the Catholic Church?
I must admit I'd be a bit disappointed if they went that route,
but can't say that I don't expect it.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay, must see the rest of
the series (some spolers -- skpe, 07:08:19 10/14/04 Thu
Don t worry Buffy is not in Italy at end of S7 and there is no
mention of WR&H being in charge of, or having any connection with
the Catholic Church. Buffy is shown to be living in Rome in an
episode of A5 but no explanation is offered.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay, must see the
rest of the series (some spolers -- BrianWilly, 10:02:30
10/14/04 Thu
Andrew said only that she liked it there. *shrug* That's
a good a reason as any other, I guess. Dawn goes to school there.
Yeah, I don't recall any connection between WR&H and any religion
either. Could someone have confused them with Caleb?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wow! Spoilage is
still possible? I didn't know. -- ZachsMind, 10:51:14 10/14/04
Thu
We've already ventured into spoilage territory but I thought by
now the whole planet had been exposed to Buffy Seven. Maybe Angel
Five hasn't made it to Europe or Austalia, but I figured with
pirate copies and dvds and whatnot, by now it'd be safe to talk
about all this without ruining it for anybody. I apologize if
that was a miscalculation on my part. Here's an old fashioned
caution warning paragraph saying please go no further unless you've
seen the whole series, unless you don't mind spoilage. I always
loved spoilage myself, but each person has their own opinion.
I should also warn about speculation ahead. Now that both series
are over, I think all we got really is speculation. IF the series
had continued, where might they have gone?
In "The Girl In Question" it's indicated clearly that
there are chapters of Wolfram & Hart in most major cities throughout
the world. The one in Rome handled Italy and perhaps other parts
of Europe. No specifics are given, but one could surmise that
there were W&H 'franchises' in London, Madrid, Copenhagen, Paris,
Moscow, etc. It's possible some places are less attractive to
W&H to set up shop than others. Depending on the forces of good
in a given city, versus the potential clients and their moneybags.
I'd imagine in the U.S. there might be chapters of W&H in Chicago,
Manhattan, St. Louis, New Orleans, Miami, maybe even the capitol..
It seems from early in season five that the L.A. chapter reached
as far east as Las Vegas, but you'd think that city would need
its own W&H offices.
Officially, we only know for certain that there's the office in
L.A. and a similar office in Rome, Italy. The lady who runs the
Italian offices at W&H indicates they are represented everywhere
on Earth but we don't get a lot of detail.
It seemed clear to me that Wolfram & Hart did not have anything
directly to do with the Vatican. That the roman catholic church
was a separate entity, but odds are W&H had it's hands in more
than a few pies over there. In fact I could imagine a tv movie
or motion picture, filmed on location in Rome Italy, that would
kick some major ass cuz you could have the RCC facing off against
W&H's Italian office. Angel may have shut down L.A. but that
was just one cog in the wheel works. Buffy & Dawn hanging in Rome
indicates to me some kind of connection with the Pope. Throw in
the mysterious Immortal into the mix along with Angel & Spike
& Ilyria after surviving the Angel Six cliffhanger and you'd have
yourself a showdown with the forces of evil. Or maybe it'd just
make for interesting fanfic. *shrug*
[> [> [> [> Re: Zach attempts to decipher the secrets
behind Wolf Ram & Hart.. -- AListair, 23:37:24 10/13/04
Wed
The Wolf Ram and Hart are not older then Illyria. They are quite
young.
Illyria said in Shells= "The Wolf Ram and Hart? In my time
they were weak, barely above the vampire." These beings were
nothing, powerless and meaningless, but now they are something
greater
[> [> [> [> [> Good point.. -- ZachsMind,
12:45:55 10/14/04 Thu
This would still reinforce my theory that they're the three old
guys who Buffy met near the end of season seven. They were barely
above the vampire in strength, and only because of the first slayer
they created with their magicks.
[> [> [> [> Order and Chaos -- Ames, 13:13:16
10/14/04 Thu
It's interesting that we have to try to distinguish order vs.
chaos from good vs. evil. While Good and Evil are fuzzy human
concepts, order and chaos are actually physical properties of
the universe. The universe was in its maximum state of order (i.e.
minimum entropy) when it first came into being. Over a vast amount
of time, it will gradually decay to a state of total chaos (maximum
entropy). Local processes, such as living beings, can temporarily
increase the degree of order in their vicinity, but only at the
cost of increasing the overall chaos of the universe.
It would be interesting to consider how beings divorced from linear
time would view this. Perhaps there is one group of beings at
the beginning of time who favor order, and another group of beings
at the end of time who favor chaos. Perhaps the beings in between,
including the "old ones", the demons, and humans are
their proxies in a conflict between order and chaos. The labels
Good and Evil may not apply.
[> [> [> [> Re: Zach attempts to decipher the secrets
behind Wolf Ram & Hart.. -- Peter M, 14:44:46 10/14/04
Thu
Interesting theory especially about the part with the Wolf, Ram
and Hart being humans something I've also been contemplating especially
with their thing about being the ones that were responsible for
humanity's evil which then would ironically put a large portion
of the blame on humanity itself in its myriad forms instead of
some ancient demons. However I gotta disagree with your theory
that the WHR are the Shadow Men. I think it's more likely that
the Wolf, Ram and Hart are shamans or mages that were the evil
versions or opposite numbers to the Shadow Men. Look at it this
way, Wolfram&Hart like the Watcher's Council(who are descended
from the Shadow Men) are always organizations that try in some
degree to maintain order though W&H are evil as order/lawful evil
and the much less effecitve Watcher's Council are more like lawful
good though in the end they're strangely two separate and opposite
organizations that are bent towards order while morally are clearly
opposites (despite the fact that the Watchers do engage in morally
dubious or evil acts). So if the WRH are indeed human mages then
it would make sense for them to be opposites to the Shadow Men
just as the law firm they founded are the opposites to the Watchers
that are part of the Shadow Men's legacy on Earth.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Zach attempts to decipher
the secrets behind Wolf Ram & Hart.. -- q 3, 16:31:56 10/14/04
Thu
The idea of the Senior Partners, or the WR&H, being human
is intriguing. It certainly helps to explain why their "Home
Office" is Earth (or the Earthly dimension, or what have
you). Assuming Holland Manners was telling the truth, of course.
Fun With Baby Names... --
ZachsMind, 16:02:55
10/13/04 Wed
First off, I'm not saying Buffy the Vampire Slayer was solely
responsible for this, but it's more than a coincidence. The show
was obviously a factor. There's complexities going on here though.
Okay I came across this through a complex set of surfing, but
when I came across it I couldn't help but let the Buffy nerd in
me creep out. The Social
Security Administration has this feature that allows one
to examine the most popular American baby names of the past. I
was typing in names of people in my family at first just out of
curiosity. Then just as I was about to shrug and leave the page,
I tried this:
BUFFY: Not existent anywhere on the list. It's considered more
of a nickname than a birth name, Joy Summers' and her ex-hubby
were apparently unique in the idea of using that as a given first
name. As far as social security cards go, it's unprecedented.
No surprise there. However..
WILLOW: Not existent in the top thousand names until 1998 when
it hit 882 out of a thousand. By 2003, Willow was 530 out
of 1000. Now, the TV series started in March of 1997. Coincidence?
I think not.
XANDER: Similar to "Alex" or "Alexis," "Xander"
is a kind of nickname based loosely off of Alexander. Another
example would be "Robbie" or "Bob" for the
more formal name of "Robert." Even so, I checked "Xander"
first, and learned that like Willow, it was nonexistent in the
list of a thousand names inputted to the SSA until 1999, two years
AFTER BtVS started, in which it ranked 931. By 2003, Xander
ranks 237. Comparatively, Alexander has ranked in the top
thirty since 1990. Still, that's pretty impressive for a one-eyed
carpenter.
FAITH: Wallows in the hundreds range from 1990 until 1999 when
she hits 77 out of a thousand. By 2003, she's 52. Again, coincidence?
ANGEL: As a male name, Angel ranked 107 in 1990, and rose rather
steadily through the next fourteen years. By 2003 he's up to
43 (!) out of a thousand. Interestingly, from the 80s back
he never broke into the top hundred. It wasn't until Whedon moved
Angel to his own show that it broke into the top fifty. Not too
shabby for an old dead guy.
ANYANKA: No luck there with the full name, which is a shame cuz
I've always thought that to be the prettiest name manifest from
the series. It seems to be a variation of "ANKH" aka
the egyptian ansate cross. So I tried the nickname "Anya"
without much hope but guess what? Again, nothing until 1998, where
Anya shows up 874 out of 1000 and by 2003 Anya's up to 486.
Not magnificent perhaps, but considering she didn't show up until
late in season three, that's rather impressive.
GILES is not among the top 1,000 male names for years 1990-2003.
That's rather predictable. It's a british name. It's a surname.
Rupert doesn't show up either. ..neither does Ripper. *snicker*
CLEM: No show. Yeah makes me sad too.
WESLEY actually went DOWN from 111 in 1990 to 185 in 2003. Not
sure what to make of that. I thought he became more cool when
the character moved to Angel, but perhaps he became the kinda
guy you wouldn't wanna name your son after. Or maybe Princess
Bride has something to do with it too. Or maybe it is all just
a crazy coincidence. Still, ya gotta admit it's funny. Most of
the other names go up. Wesley goes down. Hey, I'm laughin.'
Coincidently, Tara also went down, from 92 in 1990 to 336 in 2003
and I ain't laughin at that. ...Dawn also went down and fell off
the top thousand list in 2001.
CORDELIA: Not feeling the love here. Couldn't find our favorite
bitch in the past fourteen years, nor could I see "Charisma"
which is the lovely and talented Carpenter's first name. Shocking
to me. I'd think those two would be ideal baby names. They're
beautiful. So hey, if you're pregnant and a fan of BtVS but don't
wanna be predictable, take the path less travelled: Cordelia
Charisma Yourfamilyname. You could call her "Buffy"
as a nickname and really confuse the elementary school teachers.
If you have a son, try Giles Wesley Yourfamilyname. You
could call him G.W. (Gee Dubya) for short.
Now granted, I didn't go back further than 1990. There's probably
a way to do that but I'm too lazy to figure it out. It's possible
these names might show up before that but if they did it would
have had nothing to do with Whedon and Mutant Enemy so I personally
lost interest beyond 1990 anyway. It's not till 1997 or 98 that
the ramifications of interest in the series would take effect
on the general public.
Bottom line: You Whedon fans are frisky! Frisky frisky! You're
all goin' out there and bumpin' into each other wiff yer naughty
bits and squirting out the little squirts and then naming them
after favorite characters from your favorite shows. Great goin'!
Keep it up! You're all a bunch a freaks!
Replies:
[> Re: Fun With Baby Names... -- Novabranch, 11:20:37
10/27/04 Wed
Hi, never done this before, hope you dont mind me joining in your
discussion!
The only other time i've heard of the name CORDELIA is in Shakespeare's
KING LEAR and that was based upon a true story. Cordelia in this
is the youngest and most beautiful daughter of an ostentatious
King who caused a whole lot of trouble because she refused to
tell her father how much she loved him (Well, thats the shortened
version, anyway). Anybody got any ideas as to whether or not this
could be related in any way to our beloved Cordy?
[> [> Re: Fun With Baby Names... -- auroramama, 11:48:47
10/28/04 Thu
There's an interesting contrast of possible meanings: from BtVS
season 1 forward, she was certainly the speaker of impolitic truths.
But the name itself (if derived from Latin) means a warm heart,
an even more dangerous characteristic for a high schooler. We
began to see that heart in BtVS S2; I'm not sure Cordelia herself
knew it was there in S1.
But she must have had it all along, unless you want to draw a
fairly firm distinction between Cordelia and non-Slayer-Buffy.
Which I might, but I think it's arguable. When Buffy chooses Willow
over Cordelia in WttH, she's already the Slayer. Angel thought
pre-Slayer Buffy, shallow as she was, offered her heart freely
to the world, which doesn't sound like early Cordy. On the other
hand, what does Angel know, poor guy, about warm hearts?
[> Why the name "Buffy" was always cool to me...
-- SS, 18:13:36 10/13/04 Wed
Because I can picture that name really appearing in my family....Why?
Because we have a tradition among the women in my family to have
nicknames for real names....I have never met anyone who had my
name as anything but a nickname, and the same goes for my mother
and her mother as well...before Buffy even existed, I could picture
having had a daughter and naming her Buffy.
Anya may not have been very common in this country, but in other
countries that has been a very common name. In the village my
family comes from in the old country I have a cousin named Anya
and she is three years older than me....and she grew up with a
friend that had the same name.
As for Wesley? I have to admit that I am glad that is not common...as
cool as Wesley was on the show, I can't stop thinking of Wesley
Crusher and that creepy Wesley kid from Mr. Belvidere....
:)
SS
[> Re: Fun With Baby Names... -- CW, 06:35:42 10/14/04
Thu
Anya is just Russian for Ann. Anyanka is a perfectly normal Russian
nickname meaning Annie. The Buffy show got it backwards in making
it sound like Anya was the nickname, which is why you got tripped
up.
There is a Willow now among my great-nieces. Yep, her parents
are Buffy fans.
[> [> Very cool. That's good to know, CW.. -- ZachsMind,
10:22:53 10/14/04 Thu
It didn't occur to me that Anyanka was russian, but given the
character's history that makes perfect sense. If anyone else has
additional knowledge about the different names of our favorite
fictional scooby gang, please feel free to chime in. I don't wanna
hog all the fun.
For example, I just found out the derivation of Xander's name,
taken from Alexander, is "protector of mankind." It's
from the Greek, presumably from Alexander the Great.
In the first season that would have seemed ironic, but from the
end of season one to the end of season seven, in his own way Xander
repeatedly protected Buffy. He brought her back to life, he took
that blast for her that split him into two people, he'd often
get thrown across the room when the baddie was trying to geet
to Buffy or others. Xander repeatedly took one on the chin for
the team. He stood there facing Dark Willow's armaggedon down
with his story about a yellow crayon. Then he sacrificed his eyeball
when the First Evil & Caleb came a calling.
So yeah Xander Harris lived up to the Alexander name.
[> [> [> Off track - "protector of mankind"
-- Rich, 10:54:01 10/14/04 Thu
At least during the first couple of seasons, it seemed like Xander
was the teams' "designated rescuer" - Giles would advise,
Willow would research, Buffy would fight, & Xander would get prisoners/hostages/civilians
out of danger (including Buffy after her first battle with the
Master). I was actually a little disappointed that the series
didn't develop this further - there were times when they could
have used a trained paramedic.
[> [> [> [> Xander the blank.. -- ZachsMind,
14:09:39 10/14/04 Thu
When they went the carpenter route I was slightly disappointed,
because I also would have liked to see Xander find something a
little more in the rescuer mode. Paramedic woulda been ideal.
Not sure when he'd have had time to go to schooling for that.
His parents obviously never had the money to help Xander out.
Actually, I wish there'd be some producers out there who could
grab Nick Brendon and wrap a tv show vehicle around him that put
him in the driving seat of a paramedic van. I think he'd do real
good in a show like that. A kind of a cross between that old "Emergency
One" tv series and the more modern CSI approach to story
telling. Throw in some Crossing Jordan attitude, with dialogue
that brings out the Zeppo in Brendon. The show could actually
be a kind of ensemble thing between the hospital emergency room
and the fire engine house, but the focus would be on Nick Brendon's
character, and they could get a good looking woman as his partner.
You wouldn't even need to play with a scifi motif. Just keep it
realistic and fast paced. Or approach the series as how I've heard
police, fire and other rescue jobs described in the past. Weeks
of boredom followed by seconds of sheer terror. Maybe call the
series "Gut Check."
It wouldn't be a Buffy spinoff, but if Eliza Dushku can get a
series, why can't Nick Brendon? The guy's got game. Keep it funny
keep it fast keep it real. I'd tune in every week. Why can't we
get good tv like that?
[> [> [> [> [> The Luck of the Draw -- skeeve,
07:25:49 10/25/04 Mon
Our hero doesn't go looking for trouble,
he just happens to be around when it's there.
He does rather a lot of rescuing for someone who isn't a professional,
so the police are understandably suspicious.
[> [> Re: Fun With Baby Names... -- Antigone, 11:38:27
10/14/04 Thu
I had a German pen-pal years ago whose name was "Anja"
(pronounced "Anya"). Could still be a popular name over
there.
[> "Buffy" is a nickname for "Elizabeth"
-- dub :o), 22:57:16 10/14/04 Thu
I know we've established that Buffy was actually given that name
by her parents, but "Buffy" is far more common as another
one of the (many) nicknames that come from "Elizabeth."
When my nephews were young they couldn't say my name, and it came
out like "Lillibuff." It occurred to me then that's
probably how the nickname first appeared.
;o)
[> [> It's also a Nickname for "Bunny"
-- Majin Gojira, 04:22:52 10/15/04 Fri
[> [> Re: "Buffy" is a nickname for "Elizabeth"
-- auroramama, 13:52:25 10/15/04 Fri
"Lillibuff" is heartrendingly adorable.
[> [> [> Re: "Buffy" is a nickname for "Elizabeth"
-- q 3, 16:06:16 10/15/04 Fri
Lillibuff = Lily + Buffy = Anne ?
Maybe that was intentional...
[> [> Yeah, I have a friend called Elizabeth who everyone
just calls Buffy -- nibblet, 16:06:43 10/15/04 Fri
[> [> [> The only Buffy I've known real name was Blodhuin
(sp?) -- Jane, 16:21:06 10/16/04 Sat
[> [> I thought this was proven false.. -- ZachsMind,
12:49:32 10/17/04 Sun
I don't have the link anymore, but I recall reading that "Buffy"
didn't derive from Elizabeth. I've also seen more than one case
in my life where a girl was nicknamed Buffy but their given name
was not remotely Elizabeth.
It CAN I suppose. I know a couple who named their baby Elizabeth
and over time they started referring to her jokingly as "Lizard"
because from "Elizabeth" they went to "Lizzy"
and then from there "Lizard" was just a logical stretch
I guess. I suggested one night that they might wanna back off
on that, since she's approaching school age and kids in elementary
school would take "Lizard" and fry her with it. They
shrugged, but since then I've noticed they just refer to her as
Lizzy or Liz, at least around me. I imagine the kid's going to
grow up with a strange affinity towards gekkos...
Where was I? Oh yeah. "Buffy" can come from Elizabeth
but it could also come from Bertha or Roberta or Beverly or a
number of other names. Unlike Richard to Dick or Robert to Bobby,
there's no conclusive way to know for certain Buffy came explicitly
from Elizabeth.
[> [> [> Um, how would that be "proven"?
-- dub, 10:42:19 10/18/04 Mon
Not false. "Buffy" is in there with all the others:
Elizabeth
Elsabeta
Elsaveta
Elsa
Elsie
Eilish (Irish Gaelic)
Eliza
Elisa
Elise
Liza
Lisa
Lise
Liz
Lizzy
Lizzie
Lizard (LOL)
Beth
Bethy
Buffy
Betty
and on, and on...
;o)
[> Re: Fun With Baby Names... -- newvauge, 19:28:15
10/20/04 Wed
i don't know if this list applies to canada, but i work at a video
store, and i've signed up memberships with i.d.s that said "surname,
buffy". so it has been used in the past.
note: on the few times it has happened i couldn't help but giggle
like a geek.
[> Re: Fun With Baby Names... -- skeeve, 08:07:35
10/25/04 Mon
Anyone remember Aeryn Sun's first suggstion for her baby's name?
Connor's vision of Darla
in Inside Out -- DigiEmissary, 16:30:13 10/14/04 Thu
Could it have been the First?
People say that it was his conscience, or a vision from the Powers.
But really, the Powers' visions tend to actually accomplish something
overt. The First's manipulations tend to be more subtle and don't
always seem to work. It makes sense for the First to want to stop
Jasmine's arrival; they're opposite types of evil, chaos and order.
Jasmine's control over the populace would stop all the random
acts of evil, though the reason the First would have waited till
that point was because the sun going out, etc, would have caused
a lot of enjoyable chaos.
Replies:
[> Re: Connor's vision of Darla in Inside Out -- q 3,
19:20:33 10/14/04 Thu
The first may be a tad slow at times, but I think it'd have been
smart enough to go with someone with more of an influence over
Connor than a mother who he never met and knows of only as a soulless
vampire - for example, Holtz.
Take this with a grain of
salt, but... (Buffyverse spin-off rumor from whedonesque.com inside!)
-- Rob, 17:40:03 10/14/04 Thu
http://whedonesque.com/?comments=5074
...Garth Ancier, in an interview, has apparently spoken of the
network being interested in a spin-off devoted to Illyria and
Fred in 2006 or 2007!!
Please please please please please please please please please
please please please please please please please please please
please please please please please please please please please
please please please please please please please please please
please please please please please please please...
Rob
Replies:
[> On knees praying to the PTB's! -- Vegeta, 08:15:59
10/15/04 Fri
Sci Fi Con NJ 11/17-18/04
-- Daleglen,
10:29:32 10/15/04 Fri
NEW YORK CITY AREA
(MEADOWLANDS, NEW JERSEY)
Sat. & Sun. NOVEMBER 27 -28, 2004
Crowne Plaza Hotel
Two Harmon Plaza
Show Hours: 11am to 6pm daily
Saturday Evening Show: 8pm
SPECIAL GUESTS:
LEONARD NIMOY (Star Trek's Spock) Saturday
BEN BROWDER (Farscape's John) Sunday
JOHN RHYS-DAVIES (Lord of the Rings' Gimli and countless other
roles) Sunday
Convention Events:
SPECIAL SATURDAY EVENING AT 8PM SHOW
LEONARD NIMOY starring in "Pictures, Poetry and Prose".
A showing of the history of Leonard's photography work and an
introduction to the fine art book of images called "Shekhina".
Leonard will also be reading from his latest poetry book called
"A Lifetime of Love" and will be discussing the changes
that have taken place in his life during these past 35 years.
All attendees to this event will receive a complimentary limited
edition photograph honoring this theatrical event.
We'll have trailers and/or clips to show from these upcoming feature
films:
BATMAN BEGINS
LEMONY SNICKET'S A SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE EVENTS
THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA
CONSTANTINE
ALEXANDER
SEED OF CHUCKY
TEAM AMERICA
WICKER PARK
BLADE: TRINITY
SHAUN OF THE DEAD
THE INCREDIBLES
HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY
STEAMBOY & KAENA
plus more!
DEALERS ROOM, AUCTIONS, CONTESTS, ON-STAGE EVENTS, MUSIC VIDEOS,
FILM PREVIEWS, BEHIND THE SCENES STUFF, AND TONS OF FELLOW FANS!
*********************************************************
Nov 19-21 THE OFFICIAL FARSCAPE CONVENTION BURBANK, CA.
*********************************************************
STARGATE CONVENTIONS, LOTR CON, XENA CON STAR TREK CON INFO ON
WEBSITE AS WELL.
http://www.creationent.com
Thank you very much for reading.
Thanks!
Replies:
[> I'm probably going. I'm most excited about meeting Ben
Browder. -- Rob, 11:08:40 10/15/04 Fri
Unspoiled Speculation on
"Lost" -- dub ;o), 13:39:37 10/15/04 Fri
Deeva and I have been exchanging ideas on lj as to what's going
on with the "monsters" on the new series Lost.
Unspoiled spec is that a cargo plane (or a ship) carrying zoo
animals has crashed on sunk near the island previously, and that's
where the polar bear came from. In that case, it's possible that
the noises in the night and the trees being knocked down are elephants.
Last week, Locke was accosted by something coming from the jungle
that caused him to look up, which could have been an elephant,
or even a giraffe.
The only problem with the theory so far, is that it doesn't account
for what happened to the pilot earlier, him getting dragged out
of the high window, torn up, and left in a tree-top doesn't sound
very elephant-like to me...
Any other possibilities?
;o)
Replies:
[> Taking this thread a bit OT - -- Masq, 14:49:11
10/15/04 Fri
Any votes for Fall TV shows that should appear at the top of the
page as official topics??
I'm thinking in particular of Fantasy stuff, if there is anything.
(*sobs*)
[> [> I vote for "Lost." -- Rob, 15:07:51
10/15/04 Fri
[> [> "Lost" gets my vote, too. -- dub
;o), 16:19:13 10/15/04 Fri
Can't say for sure at this stage whether it has any fantasy elements
or not, but it certainly has a sort of "Twin Peaks"
freakishness that appeals to the fantasy-lover in me.
I've been watching "The 4400" on the Canadian Space
channel, but that's only 6 eps, and it's over next week. It was
great, though.
"Desperate Housewives" is only a fantasy in so far as
the physicality of the women of Wisteria Lane goes...it's kind
of weird and freaky too, though. And hey, it's narrated by a dead
person. The meme of "The Lovely Bones" made it to TV-land
in record time.
;o)
[> [> [> There's supposedly a second season of "4400"
coming next summer in the US. -- Rob, 16:43:22 10/15/04
Fri
[> [> [> [> Ooooh, good news...thanks! -- dub
;o), 17:16:46 10/15/04 Fri
[> [> Might as well vote for "Smallville" while
I'm at it. -- Rob, 16:47:30 10/15/04 Fri
It's a flawed show, but I'd definitely be interested in discussing
it, and finding good sci-fi or fantasy shows on right now is really
hard. And maybe when "Alias" comes back in January,
that could be added?
Rob
[> [> Good show, but is Lost fantasy? -- Ames, 18:26:05
10/15/04 Fri
Veronica Mars is more in the spirit of Buffy.
[> [> [> Not primarily, but it has the Mutant Enemy
connection - David Fury -- Evan, 18:27:58 10/15/04 Fri
[> [> [> For now, I think we have to assume it is.
-- Rob, 20:40:11 10/15/04 Fri
[> [> [> [> After episode #4 (Walkabout) - I would
vote YES on Lost being a Fantasy -- ladyhelix, 10:12:22
10/16/04 Sat
[> [> It's definitely not a new fall show, but maybe
Inuyasha -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:11:58 10/15/04 Fri
It's an anime (Japanese cartoon) that is shown on Cartoon Network.
New episodes are shown every Saturday at 11 PM Central Time, and
Monday - Thursday at 11:30 PM Central Time. It definitely fits
the fantasy genre: it's about a girl named Kagome who accidentally
finds a portal to Feudal Japan. I won't go into all the complex
details, but Kagome unwittingly brings the Shikon jewel (believed
to have been destroyed) back to ancient times and accidentally
breaks it. The shards of the jewel are scattered all around, and
demons who find them become much more powerful and deadly. Kagome
decides that, since she's responsible for all the destruction
these demons are causing, that she must try to collect all the
jewel shards. She does this with the help of a half-demon named
Inuyasha, as well as some other characters introduced along the
way. The series is very much arc centered, with a villain named
Naraku also trying to collect all of the magical jewel shards
(he also pitted the woman Inuyasha loved against him 50 years
ago, resulting in her death, so there's a vengeance conflict going
on as well).
Part of what makes the series interesting is the ambiguous nature
of Inuyasha. While he doesn't kill people and has been known to
go out of his way to help on occasion, his stated goal is to collect
all the shards of the Shikon jewel so he can become a pure demon
(when someone brings up that he might start slaughtering people
like many other demons they've faced, Inuyasha casually remarks
"Whoever said I wanted to be good demon?") The series
has explored many of the same grounds as Buffy and Angel (demons
who are good, or at least struggling to be so; the effect that
cutting yourself off from others can have; as well as creating
a well-developed supporting cast around one or two main characters).
[> [> [> Re: It's definitely not a new fall show,
but maybe Inuyasha -- Wizard,
21:56:32 10/15/04 Fri
Inuyasha rocks, and definitely gets my vote, as does Lost.
[> Three Possible Explanations for the Weirdness on "Lost"
-- cjl, 15:00:16 10/15/04 Fri
1. The Island of Dr. Sinister. The "Lost" island is
the secret playground of a mad scientist who has created horrific
bio-mechanical monsters and has brought down the plane so he can
use the castaways for grotesque genetic experiments. The first
season ends as Jack and Kate break into the mad scientist's stronghold
and find Jean Grey and Scott Summers manacled to a dungeon wall.
2. Land of the "Lost." The island is actually a Bermuda
Triangle-like space-time aberration; in episode 16, the castaways
meet the ghosts of Sid and Marty Krofft, who offer them passage
back to civilization through an alternate dimension populated
entirely by talking hats.
3. The island is revealed to be a figment of JJ Abrams' fevered
imagination, where any damn thing can happen at any time, as long
it leaves a kick-ass cliffhanger. At the end of Season 3, the
characters rebel, and hire Jack Bristow to take out the bastard
once and for all. David Fury then assumes command, and brings
in the assembled casts of Buffy and Angel....
[> My own pet theory is... -- Majin Gojira, 15:31:45
10/15/04 Fri
A Son of Yog-Sothoth or similar Cthonic Horrors. It would explain
both the wounds given to the pilot, the size and the whole sucking
thing is akin to Wilbuer Whately's Twin Brother...Who looked more
like the father than he did!
[> One small thing I noticed... -- Evan, 18:33:14
10/15/04 Fri
In the episode with the polar bear, the kid was reading a comic
book that had a polar bear in it. I noticed this on my second
viewing. It's shown very briefly.
So my sort of theory is simply that people's thoughts have some
sort of power on the island to do things like manufacture polar
bears, create scary things in the forest, restore one's ability
to walk, and....
******SPOILERS FOR NEXT WEEK'S EPISODE FROM THE TRAILER********
... make Jack's father appear (I got this from the "next
week on Lost" that everyone probably saw).
[> [> Verrrrrrrrry interesting... -- dub ;o), 19:09:20
10/15/04 Fri
I haven't been taping Lost so I only see the episodes once, and
I didn't notice the polar bear in the comic book, but that does
seem like just too big a coincidence, doesn't it?
Is this the place of wish fulfillment? Locke gets to walk. Kate
gets to be free (and free of the marshall). Jack gets to start
over.
I admit it, I'm hooked.
[> [> [> Re: Verrrrrrrrry interesting... -- Rob,
21:19:18 10/15/04 Fri
That is very interesting. Another wish-fulfillment moment: The
little boy getting his dog back, which in the "regular"
course of events would have been highly unlikely had it been in
the jungle of that island for three days or so.
Rob
[> [> Re: One small thing I noticed... -- DigiEmissary,
12:20:21 10/17/04 Sun
Sounds kind of like Michael Crichton's Sphere to me. That was
a great book.
But yeah, that is interesting.
[> Why is that time slot so full? -- Finn Mac Cool,
18:57:43 10/15/04 Fri
I've been hearing so many good things about that show. Unfortunately,
it airs at 8/7 Central on Wednsdays. At that same time I've got
"Smallville" on the WB and "That 70's Show"
and "Quintuplets" on FOX. It's already stressful enough
flipping back and forth during commercial breaks and deciding
which of the two I want to focus on watching that night. Adding
a new show from that time slot is just not possible.
[> Lost could put this Spoiler trollop back in business..;)
unspoiled (really) speculation. -- Rufus, 17:00:23 10/16/04
Sat
I haven't seen every episode of Lost but this is what caught my
attention in the last episode "Walkabout"...
"Don't tell me what I can't do." (Locke
in "Walkabout")
We got to learn more about Locke in this past episode. He seems
so sinister til you realize he is a geeky role playing office
worker who spills his guts to who turns out to be perhaps a phone
sex worker. He is a guy who has lost it (snerk) and since coming
to this island seems to feel a miracle has happened. There is
a secret to the island and his words just may be part of a key
to why this man is able to do what goes against who he is in flashback.
Locke keeps saying that one thing "Don't tell me what I can't
do." On this island for whatever reason, he is able to do
what he wills.
[> [> Re: Lost could put this Spoiler trollop back in
business..;) unspoiled (really) speculation. -- Rufus, 17:04:17
10/16/04 Sat
I forgot to add, I sense a bit of a "Forbidden Planet"
influence in this show.
[> [> Re: Lost could put this Spoiler trollop back in
business..;) unspoiled (really) speculation. -- LadyStarlight,
20:40:04 10/16/04 Sat
I *loved* the fact that the sinister, high-level Black Ops-seeming
guy was a war gamer! I honestly never would have guessed that.
[> [> [> yeah, but... (spoilers) -- anom, 00:26:12
10/17/04 Sun
...he sure knew how to throw that knife (I don't believe Jack's
"you either have really good aim or really bad aim"),
& he killed that boar by himself after he said it'd take 3 of
them--he has some kind of experience, whether it's survivalist
or Outward Bound. And then there was that case of hunting knives--is
that standard walkabout equipment? He could actually have had
military experience. We don't know how long he'd been disabled,
or how it happened.
[> [> [> [> Re: yeah, but... (spoilers) --
Wizard, 01:47:11
10/17/04 Sun
Well, the asshat boss said that Locke had no military experience
on his record. Then again, if it was classified or something it
is entirely possible that it would not be on his record, but I
doubt that JJ will go that route.
[> [> [> [> Re: yeah, but... (spoilers) --
dub ;o), 08:33:47 10/17/04 Sun
I think he said he hadn't been able to walk for 4 years? Or did
I dream that?
;o)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: yeah, but... (spoilers)
-- anom, 09:12:06 10/17/04 Sun
You could easily be right--I didn't tape it, so maybe I just missed
it or don't remember. But we still don't know how it happened...right?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Right. -- dub ;o),
11:04:30 10/17/04 Sun
[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, if this "wish
fulfillment" theory is true... -- Rob, 11:34:07 10/17/04
Sun
...his ability to throw the knife and kill the boar may be part
of his becoming the fantasy military/spy guy he created. He can
walk, when he couldn't before, and now can do all this cool stuff
he had only dreamed of doing before. Remember when Locke told
the little boy that a miracle had happened to him?
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, if this
"wish fulfillment" theory is true... -- dub, 12:46:12
10/17/04 Sun
Damn, I wish I'd started taping Lost when it began. I think that
Walt told his father the secret Locke told him was, "He said
he's a miracle."
One of the things I love, is that we've all seen that wheelchair
on the beach right from the beginning, being used to drag stuff
around. My assumption was that whoever had been using it was dead,
so it was a really neat touch to discover it was Locke. Also,
that ep was done in such a way that, while I knew there was something
suspicious about Locke, I was still honestly shocked when the
camera pulled away to reveal him in the wheelchair.
It's not often that a TV show can surprise me anymore. I really
miss that...*sob*
;o)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wheelchair.....
-- Rufus, 02:55:40 10/18/04 Mon
My thought was that the plane was large enough to have a wheelchair
onboard, just in case...;) Seems I was wrong.
[> Re: Unspoiled Speculation on "Lost" --
anom, 11:19:40 10/17/04 Sun
"The only problem with the theory so far, is that it doesn't
account for what happened to the pilot earlier, him getting dragged
out of the high window, torn up, and left in a tree-top doesn't
sound very elephant-like to me...
Any other possibilities?"
Nope, just more questions. The pilot's body was bloody, but no
parts seemed to be missing. So whatever killed him apparently
didn't eat any of him. And if it didn't kill him for food...what
did it kill him for?
[> Best new show on the main nets so far this year, IMO
-- OnM, 12:32:15 10/17/04 Sun
As to what's happening, I was voting for the time warp/dimensional
portal idea up until I read what Evan said about the polar bear
and the wish fulfillment bit-- and now I have to agree that that
makes the most sense.
That still, rather delightfully, leaves a lot of room for 'explaining'
the mechanism involved, and as to how the lost tribe will figure
it out, an/or argue about the mechanism.
For example, it could be:
1. They're all dead, and this is some form of afterlife. But there
is no god, only thought. Their collective minds create the island
and the occurrances upon it.
2. Same as #1, but there is a PTB of some kind. Good? Evil? Indifferent?
3. Abrahms is resurrecting the old Star Trek season 1 story about
the planet that creates a literal reality from whatever the visitors
think of, with a variant. The plane passed through a dimensional
rift that took the passengers to a parallel Earth where the technology
is far more advanced than on 'our' would, and the island is like
a 'theme park'. Active? Abandoned because 'failsafes' went wrong
and people were accidentally hurt or killed?
4. cjl is right, and Abrahms will do whatever he damn well wants
to.
I'm going with #3, which I think would be pretty cool.
Oh-- I'm going to start taping as of next Wednesday. What more
can I say, Lost gets my vote.
[> [> I'm thinkin' we have a winner. -- dub ;o),
12:38:22 10/17/04 Sun
Funny you should say that--I just decided to start taping this
coming episode, too. There are too many things happening that
I want to go over again in more detail, and I really wish I could
freeze frame on that comic book!
;o)
Fundraising for the Big Meet-up
-- Sheri Gabrielsson,
14:50:56 10/15/04 Fri
Hey, all:
I was thinking of ways we can mitigate the costs of getting a
hospitality suite or conference room at the next big board meet;
how does having some fundraising activities sound?
I've made a cafepress shop for selling various items (so far I
have one shirt up, but I'll be gradually adding more and more
stuff. If you have a design that you'd like me to use, just email
it to me)
All after-tax profits for sales will go towards paying for the
costs of the meetup (after the meetup, I'll be donating the profits
to charity).
Replies:
[> link -- Sheri, 14:52:19 10/15/04 Fri
ATPO Board Cafepress
shop
[> Excellent idea! -- Rob, 15:06:37 10/15/04 Fri
[> Great idea Sheri! -- ladyhelix, 10:51:12 10/16/04
Sat
[> [> Re: Great idea Sheri! -- ladyhelix, 11:11:24
10/16/04 Sat
SMG interview.... Disappointing,
but not surprising -- ladyhelix, 10:49:04 10/16/04 Sat
This has NOTHING to do with philosophy. I don't mean to offend
anyone who agrees with her, and she's entitled to her opinion,
but the last 3 comments in this GRUDGE interview just make me
sad. http://www.azcentral.com/ent/movies/articles/1016gellar17.html
SMG is quoted in the interview as saying:
* "Buffy had jumped the shark."
* "Buffy was being degraded. "
* "Your options are limited on a television show called Buffy
the Vampire Slayer," she says, "when you're Buffy."
Yea, we'll miss you too Sarah.
Replies:
[> The fun we have with the media -- Tchaikovsky, 11:07:54
10/16/04 Sat
This interview, released earlier this week, from the Toyfare,
has Sarah Michelle Gellar quoted as saying:
So, for that reason, I think we went out on top. I was happy
with the end. I don t think we jumped the shark, we didn t go
on too long. It would worry me then, if we were to go back. In
an hour or hour-and-a-half period, we would disappoint people.
So your guess is as good as mine.
The full
article
TCH
[> [> Oh - I feel much better! -- ladyhelix, 11:49:21
10/16/04 Sat
Thank you!
I haven't been reading many of these interviews, but I am curious
about the movie. It's clear that Sarah has to shake the BUFFY
image, so I always expect a certain amount of "distancing".
I felt this was a little extreme, so I'm relieved to know it's
probably a misquote, and/or creative writing . (And you're right
- I should always suspect that!)
And the S6 thing .. ? I understand why she didn t get it . Sarah
has been blessed, and I hope that she NEVER has a reason to understand
why the depression and desperation of Season 6 rang true with
so many of us. I remain grateful that Marti (& Joss) were willing
to take us to the dark place . As with THE BODY, I remain amazed
by authentic human emotions translated so honestly - especially
considering this was television.
WHEW! Well, with that now settled, I can get back to work (and
I won't have to make cookies after all)!
Thanks so much! - ladyhelix
[> [> [> Yes, I read this discussion at whedonesque.com...
-- Rob, 13:05:33 10/16/04 Sat
Sarah did not say the show jumped the shark, in fact she said
it hadn't. Creative editing on the part of the author, taking
phrases out of context. Interestingly, it's the only article she
did recently where it seems she was unhappy with Buffy, where
every other one she had nothing but good things to say, even going
so far as to say now that she would be possibly interested in
doing a Buffy movie, if she liked the script, whereas she
was completely against it before.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Umm, Rob?... Not THIS author though
- right? -- ladyhelix, 19:26:02 10/16/04 Sat
Rob - Did I misquote the article?? Please tell me that you were
talking about the guy that did the SMG interview ("creative
editing", "out of context") - and not ME!
Thanks!
(Ladyhelix prepares to run and hide in shame)
[> [> [> [> [> You quoted azcentral correctly
-- Cheryl, 21:44:53 10/16/04 Sat
Which is one of the reasons I don't like the AZ Republic. Not
always the most accurate or objective.
[> [> [> [> [> No, you didn't misquote the article.
They misquoted and misrepresented her. -- Rob, 22:41:21
10/16/04 Sat
[> [> [> [> [> [> It's clear we're talking
about more than one interview. -- CW, 09:14:54 10/17/04
Sun
The jumped-the-shark comment may have been a misquote in the newspaper
article. But, the rest of the article sounds consistant with what
we've heard from her before.
Again, as I said below, there is no reason to dump on Sarah if
she wasn't 100% happy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's clear we're
talking about more than one interview. -- Rob, 09:20:13
10/17/04 Sun
I agree with you about not dumping on her for not being happy,
but the thing is this particular article isn't consistent with
anything she said in any other interview she's done recently,
where she claimed to be happy with Buffy up until the end
and thought they went out on top, and the inconsistencies aren't
in Sarah's quotes so much as what the writer wrote surrounding
the quotes, implying that these were the writers' interpretations
more than her own feelings.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's clear
we're talking about more than one interview. -- CW, 09:38:17
10/17/04 Sun
There is a difference between being happy working with a group
of actors and crew (and I think she was), and being thrilled with
the matieral at all times. If reporters are asking slightly different
questions they could get very different answers.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's
clear we're talking about more than one interview. -- Rob,
10:27:57 10/17/04 Sun
That's true, but this interviewer clearly indicated that she had
said "jumped the shark" in reference to the show, which
she did not.
Rob
[> [> [> [> You know.... -- ladyhelix, 15:04:56
10/17/04 Sun
One of the reasons it's so hard to know what Sarah really thinks
or feels, is that she doesn't participate in the kind of live
interviews or DVD commentaries that allow first hand access to
her opinions. And yes - that's because the rest of the cast & crew
have spoiled us ROTTEN!
I treasure the SMG clips that are part of the A&E Special (on
the Season 6 DVDs) because that is the only place I've ever heard
Sarah speak for Sarah. Every other time (i.e. this article) -
it's second hand.
So as much as I'd like to read up on the Grudge (as I would any
other new releases that catch my interest), I'm probably safer
NOT reading any more about it (for fear of SMG interviews), and
just buying a ticket when it comes to the theater.
And thank you, SMG scholars, for rescuing me from my despair!
(I SO need to get a life!)
[> [> [> Re: Season 6 -- Rich, 13:38:31 10/16/04
Sat
As a viewer, I found season 6 easier to understand when it was
in reruns - when I could watch several episodes in rapid succession,
rather than watching each one independently (often with a long
gap between episodes). Taken as a whole, the story seemed to make
a lot more sense.
SMG had to "experience" the season not just one episode
at a time, but one *scene* at a time - & scenes aren't necessarily
shot in order. Plus, she'd spent 5 years developing a character,
only to see the character taken to a totally new place. I'm not
at all surprised if she had problems. Considering the result,
I think she handled them pretty well.
[> [> [> [> I personally felt that S6 went exactly
where it needed to go. -- BrianWilly, 18:01:10 10/16/04
Sat
BUT, as a fellow performing artist, I completely sympathize and
applaud Ms. Gellar's often vocal reluctance and discomfort with
the nature of some of those scenes.
When an actor is uncomfortable with a scene to the point where
he or she feels humiliated by it, then it's his or her responsibility
to communicate with the director and, yes, even put down her foot
and draw the line before it is crossed. Actors aren't props, and
have every right to feel comfortable with their work. There's
suffering for your craft, and then there's lowering your own standards
for your craft.
Sorry about the ranting...but this is a sore topic for me. In
the past, I've read comments from "fans" of the show
pretty much telling Sarah to just get over herself and suck it
up. "Spike is the one who's naked and Buffy gets to wear
clothes! If James isn't complaining, why should she?? She's such
a prude!" Some of the things that have been said are just
that much more proof that people in general are stupid and insensitive...
[> [> [> [> Re: Season 6 -- CW, 08:39:16
10/17/04 Sun
SMG was far from alone in being unhappy with season six. Some
people hated it and quit watching. Some loved it, and begged for
more. I thought, it was just okay; subpar for Buffy, but still
better than what else was on.
I think the real point is that despite the fact SMG was uncomfortable
and maybe unhappy with the matieral, she went ahead and did her
job in a way fans of the show could enjoy. Whether we like what
ME did with it or not, it's pretty tough to criticze SMG's acting
that year. You can't ask too much more of anyone.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Season 6 -- Jane, 19:28:32
10/17/04 Sun
I completely agree. Whatever Sarah felt about Season 6, it certainly
didn't affect her performance on screen. I'm sure playing a depressed,
unhappy person for most of a season would weigh on anyone. Frankly,
I don't think it's any of my business what she feels in her personal
life. It's what she does on screen with a character I love that
is important to me, and I never felt that she failed to live up
to my expectations. I am one of those who liked season 6 a lot;
I found it dark and disturbing, but I liked it.
[> [> Re: The fun we have with the media -- Cheryl,
21:48:08 10/16/04 Sat
Thanks for posting the link.
I truly believed the finale should have been two hours. I don
t think Xander got nearly enough time, there was so much to wrap
up.
I was very happy to see this because I agree 100%.
[> [> [> Re: The fun we have with the media --
Wizard, 01:37:22
10/17/04 Sun
I also agree, especially about the 'more Xander' part. There was
a time on the show where he was decently capable in a fight, and
that was gradually ignored. Is it wrong to want him to have helped
take Caleb down? He didn't necessarily have to 'pick up the spare,'
but some measure of revenge would have been nice. Oh well!
[> [> [> [> It was very nice of her to say that
about Xander, too... -- Rob, 10:36:26 10/17/04 Sun
...particularly because I definitely got the feeling from the
convention I went to with Nick Brendon that there was definitely
bad blood between them. He spoke gushingly about all the other
actors on the show, and in reference to Sarah said that it would
have been nice if he had been told face-to-face and didn't learn
that he was out of a job from the cover of Entertainment Weekly.
So knowing that, it was a very nice thing of her to say that in
particular she thought Xander she have had more time.
Rob
the ATPo cafepress store
is up and running! -- Sheri,
15:38:33 10/16/04 Sat
I've been adding several new designs over the last couple of days,
so check it out!
Also, now is the perfect time to buy sweatshirts; from now until
November 1st, sweatshirts and hoodies are $4 off. Just enter coupon
CPSSWEATSAL
Replies:
[> Oh, this is way cool! Gonna get me some. -- Jane,
16:17:36 10/16/04 Sat
[> Sheri, YOU ROCK! -- Masq, 16:35:27 10/16/04 Sat
I want that clock. Must.Have.That.Clock.
Are you going to pimp market this site other places??
[> [> Re: Sheri, YOU ROCK! -- Sheri, 16:55:42
10/16/04 Sat
I'm a little worried about having (possibly) copyright violating
things on there. As far as I know, photomanips do not violate
copyright law (can one of the lawyer types weigh in please?),
but if the FOX lawyers tell cafepress to take things down... (it's
very difficult to find stuff related to the firefly movie on cafepress
now cause FOX did a sweep--although I noticed that slayage.com
is selling several items that are Buffy and Angel related).
So I'm pimping *quietly*. I decided not to list in the directory
(FOX checks the directory periodically for things) and to not
have any sensitive keywords (Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Fray, etc.
etc.). Basically pimping through word of mouth only--that should
keep things safe.
I live dangerously, don't I?
[> [> [> Re: Sheri, YOU ROCK! -- Masq, 20:31:44
10/16/04 Sat
Can I pimp it in my LJ??
[> [> [> [> go right ahead and pimp to your buds
-- Sheri, 22:03:37 10/16/04 Sat
I just don't want to pop up when Fox does a google search. ;)
[> oops! coupon is CPSWEATSAL, not cpSSweatsal -- Sheri,
18:19:42 10/16/04 Sat
speaking of the big board
meet.... what's the scoop? -- Sheri, 19:08:44 10/16/04
Sat
What are the details on the board meet? Have we officially decided
when/where it will be? Do we know how much hotel rooms will cost?
I need to know as soon as possible so I can budget and start hunting
for discount airfares. When I got the "early bird" special
for my flight to Chicago, I saved over $300... I couldn't have
gone otherwise.
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