October 2002 Archives

October 2002 posts

Previous October 2002
More October 2002

ATPOBTVS THE MUSICAL - part four -- Dedalus, 20:52:27 10/24/02 Thu

Part Four

INT. The Bronze Board

VampireHunterD: Well well well. I didn't expect anyone to get here so quickly.

Rufus walks onto the board, facing her adversary who is sitting up on the stage, Ronia looking quite anxious beside him. Rufus fixes him with a glare.

Rufus: I tried to stay out of this. I really did. But enough is enough.

VampireHunterD: Whatever do you mean?

Rufus: I mean, this isn't funny anymore. I love the Existential Scooby board. We have all sorts of wonderful discussions there. I have very good friends there. You could have once too. But you flamed us all instead. So, whatever issues you've got - whether anyone thinks you're hot or not - stop this singing business so we can all go back to doing what we do best.

VampireHunterD: Tempting, but ... NO!

Rufus: This is not really a request, vhD. People's cyber-heads are being blown off! I want you to stop this and set the internet right again.

Ronia: What about me?!

Rufus: Oh yeah. And let her go too.

VampireHunterD: I don't think so. I think I'm going to watch all of you dance till you drop. And then Ron here is going back to my basement - I mean house - to be my queen.

As she so often does in situations such as these, Ronia gags a little.

Rufus: I'm only asking once more. Let us have voy back!

VampireHunterD: And what would you do with voy if you had it back?

Rufus: You already know. And in case you don't, here's a song to clear things up.

Voy's a show, and we all post our parts.
And when the typing starts
We talk about the arts.

It's alright, if some posts print out wrong.
We'll sing a happy song.
Newbies can sing along -

The three troll henchmen attack at this point, but Rufus finishes them off in a winning combination of dance and martial arts.

Rufus: Where there's chat - there's hope.
Every posts - a gift.
Ships can - come true.
Whistle while - you type
So much - all day.

To just keep up the pace
To stand out in shining cyberspace!

Don't give me trolls.
Don't give me trolls.

Suddenly, Agent156 logs on, as do the rest of the Existential Scoobies. Mundusmundi points over at where Rufus is singing.

Mundusmundi: Rah, Aqui - she needs back up!

Rahael and Aquitaine immediately run over and start keeping pace with Rufus.

Rufus: Give me something worth printing out!
I need something worth printing out!

We get into some seriously fast music, then it slows again.

Rufus: Life's a post you can't spell-check first.
A post you can't delete or reverse.
And errors make it all the worse.

As it is now this is such a bore.
Unlike the million posts or more
I could be printing for!

All the voy - formats.
Canada - and cats.

All the stuff - life sends.
Chocolate - and friends.
All this just depends

On if you get to print.
If enough posts are sent.
Cause when we type
There's so much hype.

As Rahael and Aquitaine go back to the sidelines, Rufus slowly approaches the stage.

Now there's no ink
No print, no post.
No philosophy to toast
On voy..

There's nothing to tell
Because I use to spell
On voy.
I use to print from voy.

So give me something worth printing out.
Please - print me something.

Rufus looks over at VampireHunterD, but he just looks back. Then she quickly darts over to the side of a stage where a computer console is sitting. Uncontrollably, she begins to type faster and faster as the music crescendos. Smoke begins to come out of the computer. We've seen this happen before. The frantic typing continues, on and on, and most of the Existential Scoobies are paralyzed.

In a very Zen-like move, the poster Age effortless slides into the Bronze and instantly stops Rufus.

Age: Voy's not a song.
Posting isn't bliss.
Posting's just this.
It's typing.

You'll print along.
The posts that you lack
You'll only get back
By typing.

You have to go on typing.
So that someone is typing.

Ronia stands up and walks forward on the stage.

Ronia: The hardest thing about our board is to post on it.

VampRiley: Yeah, cause voy sucks.

Rufus recovers from her near explosion as VampireHunterD gives a little round of applause.

VampireHunterD: Now that was a net-stopping number.

Mundusmundi: Get out of here!

VampireHunterD: %#!& you Mundus!

LittleBit: Jeepers.

VampireHunterD: Yeah, I guess I don't rate a kaboom. I never rate a kaboom.

The troll master then looks at all the Existential Scoobies gathered around, and notices many of them have become couples.

VampireHunterD: For god's sake, is there anyone here who isn't sleeping together?

d'Herblay and Dedalus share a brief, awkward glance.

VampireHunterD: Nevermind. Anyway, this has been real, but it's time for me and Ron to bail.

Agent156: That's never going to happen.

VampireHunterD: And who's going to stop me?

A female figure suddenly logs on out of nowhere. A mixture of shock and recognition flood VampireHunterD's face as he sees her.

VampireHunterD: Mom?!

Mom: Yes, it's me honey.

VampireHunterD: What are you doing here?

Mom: I've come to tell you dinner is ready. Time to log off.

VampireHunterD: Mom!

Mom: Come on now. You can chat with your friends another time.

She then logs off, and afterwards, Dedalus snickers.

VampireHunterD: %#$& you, Dedalus!

LittleBit: Jeepers.

Everyone just sort of stands there, unsure of who is going to make the next move. Fortunately, VampireHunterD admits defeat. His shoulders sort of sag.

VampireHunterD: I guess this is it. Cheer up. You got what you wanted.

Rufus: No one wanted this.

VampRiley: Well, I thought it was kind of funny.

One last troll song erupts, a reprise of "Bringing the Flames In."

VampireHunterD: I am so out of here, you guys aren't all that.
All those posts now you can cut and paste -
You should be happy once more in cyberspace.
Now I've got to eat, so see you all in chat!!!

VampireHunterD logs off and disappears on stage.

The Existential Scoobies are left standing in the Bronze Board, sharing looks and anxious to get back to their own beloved board. But they all know one more song is coming, so they may as well get on with it.

Rahael: How do we post from here?

All: How do we post from here?

Anthony8: That was quite a feat but the war's complete
So give our big Scooby cheer -
But how do we post from here?

The Existential Scoobies all come together and act out the final number.

All: Why is the way unclear
When we know voy is near?
Comprehend we'll post without end
And every chat will be so dear -

Anthony8: But tell me -

All: How do we post from here?

Shouldn't the type appear?
Where is the Scooby cheer?
Our board's still down
So pardon our frown.
We know the end is near!

How do we post from here?

EXT. The Bronze Board

While all this is going on, Solitude1056 finally logs on after spending the whole day doing calculus. Sol takes one look inside at the weird goings on, then turns to surf back over to another site. However, the Trollbot is there and quickly approaches. The scene is awkward at best.

Trollbot: I know you don't like me.

Solitude1056: Well, no, it's not that.

Trollbot: I was suppose to leave, but I just couldn't.

Solitude1056: Why not?

Trollbot: I just couldn't.

Solitude1056: I didn't mean to be rude, but I didn't like the way you handled the trolls on the board.

Trollbot: I don't like trolls anymore. I like someone else.

Solitude1056: Listen, I was about to log off anyway ...

The music kicks in again, and the two stare at each other. Eventually, they begin to take steps closer and closer to one another, like twin moths drawn to a flame.

Trollbot: I post and everyone teases me

Solitude1056: I didn't mean what I said those months ago

Trollbot: I see trolls but now there's no thrill

Solitude1056: I lied I don't want you to go

Trollbot: This isn't real but you missed the whole deal

Solitude1056: I can't believe you can let me feel -

They finally come together in a long, passionate kiss.

All: How do we post from here???

The End

Curtains Fall

[> Dedalus, I meet you in person, you're toast. -- Solitude1056 - who passed calculus!!, 20:59:31 10/24/02 Thu

Bwahahaha.

[> [> I got to sing, I got to dance.......and I didn't have to kiss anyone......:):):):):) -- Rufus, 23:42:56 10/24/02 Thu

[> [> sol, you mean... -- anom, 14:53:37 10/25/02 Fri

...he's a Ded-Man?

@>)

[> [> [> *groan* -- Solitude1056, 22:32:07 10/25/02 Fri

[> Inspired, brilliant, quite possibly the best post ever. can someone give Dedalus a Kaboom, please? -- JBone - tossing flowers to the stage, 21:03:26 10/24/02 Thu

[> [> Multimegaton, thermonuclear KABOOM. But tasteful. (ntxt) -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 12:16:43 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> May I add...KABOOM to the 10th power? -- dubdub ;o), 19:45:03 10/25/02 Fri

[> Bravo! Bravo! -- HonorH (wildly applauding), 21:12:19 10/24/02 Thu

Will you sign my program?

[> Weeeee! That was fun! -- Deeva, 22:26:01 10/24/02 Thu

Part Four? When did 1-3 happen?

[> [> oops! Gee all I had to do was look down! -- Deeva, whose roots are showing, 22:31:38 10/24/02 Thu

[> Oh, I'm going to cry! N/T -- Deb, 23:08:10 10/24/02 Thu

[> No Ink No Print No Post.. is that a reference to me?!! =) -- neaux looking forhimself, 04:24:57 10/25/02 Fri

[> Emmys! Tonys! Webbies! You deserve it all! -- ponygirl also with the applauding, 06:23:58 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> Knowing the Emmys, they'll just forget to leave the name off the ballot or something. grr aargh! -- Rob, 09:34:51 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> [> There I go messing up a perfectly good joke. Should be "just forget AND leave the name off..." -- Rob, and again with the grr aargh!, 09:39:37 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> No it just proves the conspiracy... -- ponygirl, 10:59:49 10/25/02 Fri

Somewhere there is an unsleeping, unblinking Academy demon methodically crossing off Joss and all ME-related names from major Emmy categories. We can only hope that some day this Beast will slip up.

[> A masterwork!! Well done, and I guess I could let you have the sabre back now. ;) -- LadyStarlight, 06:47:47 10/25/02 Fri

[> Very clever, Dedalus:) -- Aquitaine, proud Rufus-ette, 06:55:22 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> Hmmmm. I wonder if Lorne wants a backup act.....;) -- Rufus, 20:03:52 10/25/02 Fri

[> I apparently slept through it all...which is a good thing -- shadowkat, 08:36:21 10/25/02 Fri

because I can't sing or dance. I'm as bad as AH...;-)

Very nice effort. Printed off for later reading.

[> That was the greatest post ever. Thanks Ded, very funny stuff. -- JCC, throwing himself at Ded's dancing feet, 08:59:24 10/25/02 Fri

But where was the Anya/Xander duet? (unless I missed it)

[> I take a bow. Liner notes will be forthcoming ... -- Dedalus, 09:29:59 10/25/02 Fri

[> May I just say: Abso-frickin'-lutely brilliant! -- Dichotomy, kicking up her legs, 12:01:31 10/25/02 Fri

I finally got to read the rest and just loved it too, especially the discovery that VampireHunterD was the cause of all the musical mayhem. Too funny! And Rob as the Buffy cheerleader--perfect!

Thanks for including me. Since I don't post or chat much, I felt extremely honored by my dancing cameo. Hope I can drop in and chat with you sometime soon, because I want to hear how your amusingly twisted mind came up with this!

[> %#!& you, Ded! %#!& you for making me laugh so hard!;) -- mundusmundi, 12:01:55 10/25/02 Fri

[> Neato! -- Monsieurxander, 13:55:58 10/25/02 Fri

Tres enjoyable. Maybe I should de-lurk more often so I can get mentioned in something this cool...

[> wow. WOW! but... -- anom, 14:51:35 10/25/02 Fri

Fantastic & screamingly funny! But I was hardly in it, &...I didn't get to sing!!!

--anom, pouting (mostly because I got to see the kind of part ded could've written for me!

[> Oh my gosh! I missed all the fun!!! -- Rahael, 15:35:29 10/25/02 Fri

I've only just looked at the board now! Can I just say LOLOLOLOL!

Ded, this was BRILLIANT!

Must cut, paste and save for dH when he gets back.

[> Last but (hopefully) not least... -- Sophie, 16:39:51 10/25/02 Fri

Wonderful! Splendid! Funny! I think I hurt something laughing so hard!

Sophie

[> "Life's a post you can't spell-check first" - Now *that* is right up there... -- OnM, 22:33:36 10/25/02 Fri

...with some of the most insightful, clever, witty things that anyone here has ever said.

:-) :-) :-)

Good goin' Ded! I'm astounded, and I've only had time enough to just skim the whole epic journey so far. I keep wondering what I'll think when I actually get to read it!!

No matter what the future brings, you'll always have this day to bask in the glory of!

No, not that Glory...

[> If Only Everything Were Just Like This! S6-7 Spoilers. -- Age, 23:02:23 10/25/02 Fri

I would be hard pressed to convey how much I enjoyed your terpsichorean extravaganza; but, I will press hard on the keys to convey at least a semblance, an echo, a beat of the delight: it was fan-dingue-o, I try-and-tell-ya!('dingue' as in French for 'stupendous'; tried to get two dances in there.)

When I watched the, uh, 'wildfeed synopsis' for your episode last November, it really didn't do you justice(justice, not vengeance.) I mean the synopsis got it all wrong: the songs were about slaying and magic and the like. But, when your actual episode came out this week, it was quite evident that the real metaphor for our lives in thought was cyberspace, with a clever allusion to 'The Matrix' as confirmation. Now, there's a smart way to convey how removed we are from nature and yet connected to everything at the same time.

I can see where the, uh, 'wildfeed synopsis' got it wrong though. It took our posting as more physical and came up with staking; and turned the immortalizing of us in your magnificent tour de footsies into a supernatural motif about the undead. It will be as if we are undead: after this we shall never die: our bodies may shimmy with the wormies, but we shall dance on with that eternal cyber grace.

Still, I had forgotten all about the, uh, 'wildfeed synopsis'; so, when I saw the episode this week, I was 'shocked and stunned, stunned and shocked.' (This is an allusion to the musical film, 'The Rutles', a parody of the Beatles, with said allusion reinforcing my attempt to convey how much I enjoyed your hip-hop-hippity pastiche.) I was even more shocked and stunned and stunned and shocked(I've waited twenty years to use this line from the film in a meaningful way) to see that I would be making an appearance. (Had I been any more shocked and stunned and stunned and shocked, someone would have had to have shunned and stocked me or stocked and shunned me as the case may be.) And I got top billing as well. No, wait, after the feeling of pride and the mindnumbing fear a la Xander, I realized that the list was alphabetical. Still, I was getting a bit restless as I hadn't learned any lines or rehearsed, but as I knew everything in the episode would be symbolic, I relaxed knowing that my song would be short because my user name is short as well. Phew!

As I read through the parts eagerly waiting for my cue(and desperately attempting not to step on anyone else's) I enjoyed the performances. I laughed, I cried, I realized that poor Harry will now be more of a potter than ever as fertilizer. Ah...how does the saying go...From beneath you, come flowers, or something like that.

Then suddenly, in act four, there was my symbolically small speech. I was in like a super fast cable connection to save the day with words of wisdom. With my propensity towards zen, this could't have been a better choice! I was shocked and stun....well, I was amazed. Brilliant! Simply brilliant.

A deeper examination of the song reveals more symbolism. It's always all symbolic. As of late I haven't posted as much as last season, and my postings have been very short in comparison with those from last year. This is amply portrayed in the idea that someone else has to go on typing(as I don't seem to.) In fact, I was very grateful that my song was so short because I'm sure the other posters must have been exhausted after all that singing and dancing they did through four acts!

So thank you for putting in this monumental effort. I used to do parodies of songs and poems for my friends a few years back; so I know what an effort it is to do, but I attempted nothing as long as this! Sometimes the subconscious coalesces and the words jump out at you, but a lot of the time you are thumbing mentally through the alphabet looking for a word similar to the original or one that rhymes. Other times, the thumbing is more literal...as through a thesaurus. I don't know what you used, but when I used to do parodies, I would resort to anything to get the words.

Anyway, thanks for including me in your cyber dance ep: 'Once More With Fibre-optic-cables.'

I highly recommend your work for an 'EPPY' award: that is an Extraordinary Parody (or) Pastiche (of the) Year. An Eppy in the epic category.

If only everything were just like this.

Age.

When the Humans are Nastier than the Demons -- wuthering, 07:14:23 10/25/02 Fri

When the Humans are Nastier than the Demons

What is the message in BtVS when the humans are nastier than the demons?
Buffy, Willow and Xander have always had their moments of sanctimonious patronage of other humans let alone other 'beings'. Finally, perhaps they are going to have to face what they have become. Willow typifying the girl/woman scared of her own female/witch powers and running from them before she learns to control them.
Buffy with her unforgiving judgmental attitude. Too afraid still to see the frailty in herself and accept and embrace it. She cannot show mercy to others because she has no compassion for herself.
Xander what a mess...a walking ball of emotions with no brain attached. Someone once told him he was stupid and he is still living under that spell. Proving it with every action, or rather reaction.

Is it just age that makes Anya and Spike more 'human'?
They state the obvious, they point the finger but rarely is there judgment attached, except in the eye of the beholder. And hey, that's their problem. They show who they are despite their fear. They fight to rid themselves of their fears by facing them not burying or ignoring them.

Is it their larger life experience?
It would be convenient to say yes, but I'm not so sure.

Or is it that 21st century middle class American teenagers (or however you would classify that late teen early 20s age group) have an inflated sense of self and an intrinsic sense of right they have adopted along with the other members of their culture?
This is the one I'll put my money on. A form of Nationalist pride that holds at its core the belief that whatever the group is that you belong to, be it peer, age, race, gender or country - it is the norm and any deviation is freakish and to be despised. Really because these people are scared of anything different to themselves that undoubtedly challenges their own false, empty belief of who they are.
So shake them up Joss and Co. because I am sick to death of the presumption the Scoobs have, that they are in the right. Hold up the mirror and show them the damage they are doing. The cruelty they are inflicting. Put an end to this false myth of their intrinsic goodness.

[> Just what I was waiting for... -- MaeveRigan, 08:00:57 10/25/02 Fri

Political correctness comes to Sunnydale.

But seriously, I have no doubt that the Scoobies are going to get shaken and stirred this season, because--well, I'm virtually certain that they're doomed (no spoiler, just spec, but I've got a theory!).

OTOH, I'm not buying that the humans are nastier than the demons.

D'Hoffryn? He's polite, but he's absolutely merciless.

Comfort!Buffy in the high-school basement (I'm going with the hypothesis that she's a manifestation of the hellmouth entity, and not just one of Spike's delusions)? Very, very nice, and so kindly keeping Spike circling the hellish drain rather than actually getting a grip on dealing with his shiny new soul.

Anya is indeed sympathetic, ultimately, and I think she's been defended adequately in other threads. But so has Buffy.

I'm not saying that Buffy has nothing to learn. I'm sure she does. But will it be that she's not "totally good"? No, I'm pretty sure that she's well aware of that.

[> Re: When the Humans are Nastier than the Demons -- Darby, 08:01:01 10/25/02 Fri

21st century middle class American teenagers ?

How different a breed of adolescent is this, except for perhaps a relaxed control from the societal Powers That Be? Do they look that "foreign" to non-Americans? Are other adolescents less self-obsessed, more assured, linked more quickly to a clear sense of self?

[> Re: When the Humans are Nastier than the Demons -- Arethusa, 08:23:19 10/25/02 Fri

Welcome to the board; I haven't seen your name here before.

We've had many discussions about the Scoobies' faults and virtures-you might want to wander through the archieves some time. The disagreements are never totally settled, because some posters view the Scoobies as fallible humans who try to do right despite their flaws, and other posters have little interest in humans, but are fascinated by the demons. It's really very interesting, because some poeple look at the Scoobies as the "in group" instead of the outcasts of Sunnydale, and the demons as the real heroes of the story, demeaned and mistreated by the humans. They demonize the humans to justify the actions of the demons, whom they identify with and see as the powerless ones.

It's kind of the same with Americans. People around the world are afraid of their power, so they demonize them. They don't realize that most Americans feel just as powerless as they do. I read a very interesting article on journalist Thomas Friedman in Rolling Stone recently. He said many Islamics hate America because they've been told Islam is the perfect religion, the perfect way of lif, yet they see Westerners live under much better conditions. How could that be so? Why, America (and Isreal) must be doing something to them-attacking or undermining them in some way. That makes just as much sense as saying Islam is evil, or all Americans " have an inflated sense of self and an intrinsic sense of right...are scared of anything different to themselves that undoubtedly challenges their own false, empty belief of who they are," or have "a form of Nationalist pride that holds at its core the belief that whatever the group is that you belong to, be it peer, age, race, gender or country - it is the norm and any deviation is freakish and to be despised."

Stick around and get to know some of the Americans here. Maybe you'll change your mind about us. Then we can start trying to change your mind about the Scoobies. ;)

[> Need for a scorecard... -- ZachsMind, 11:23:25 10/25/02 Fri

It's weird. Whedon's introduced demon characters that act more human and the main characters are acting more evil. The lines are blurring. Whedon's playing with the very definitions of good & evil which Americans take so much for granted. He's taking stereotypical concepts and shaking them up a bit. A lot.

The main characters do have a sense of right and a sense of self, but I question whether words like "intrinsic" or "inflated" even qualify in defining them. Xander's sense of right and wrong may be intrinsic, but it's not inflated. In fact it's constantly being challenged and proven in error, but it's like a survivor of a sunken ship clinging to a piece of driftwood, seeing other potential floating devices just out of reach but he hesitates to let go of what's gotten him there so far for fear of drowning before navigating to something that might be better. He clings to his sense of values desperately, even though they're not getting him very far very fast. We go with what we know, and if what we know is flawed, then our journey will be impeded, but it's still possible to take the journey. Our limitations are our own.

Willow's sense of self was neither inflated nor intrinsic at the start. Her culture & upbringing taught her one way, but she's largely abandoned her jewish upbringing to embrace paganism and alternative lifestyles. Unlike Xander, Willow let go of the floatation device of her youth and swam to alternatives. Sometimes she does good. Sometimes she falters. Usually it's when her sense of self inflates, and she gets overconfident, that she finds herself turning to the dark side. When she's cautious and uncertain, that's when she walks a more delicate but secure path.

Buffy is like any vigilante. She has a sense of morality that is not so much intrinsic but based on what she's learned about her job description. Had it been up to her, she woulda just let someone else deal with the evils of the world, but she was forced to accept her responsibility as the Chosen One, so she does the best she can. The Powers That Be could have given anyone the job, but they picked her, so she must have something intrinsic about her that's of value, but she takes very little for granted.

[> And don't forget the misogynist -- Tchaikovsky, 15:02:56 10/25/02 Fri

As an aside in a long and self-involved argument Rahael and I had earlier this week, I mentioned in passing that two of the most unpleasant characters ever portrayed in Buffy the Vampire Slayer are entirely human.

Take Warren, for example. To be harsh to him, let's compare him with the Big Bads of various other seasons. Season One; the Master. A chummy sort of bloke. Does what all vampires do. Evil, yes. But of his sort, nothing deeply dramatic.
Angleus is mainly considered as particularly nastily evil because we compare him to the 'good' ensoulled Angel. The Mayor has big flaws, but some redeeming features, (I'm starting to sound like an apologist for murderers here- excuse me).

I suppose the point is that all these lot have no souls. All of them are 'supposed' to be horrible to human kind. They act of type.

But when we come to Warren, we see someone whose views on women are tasteless bordering on abusive, (Katrina in 'Dead Things'), who will murder for personal gain, who will cheat on apparent best friends. He, with no initial disadvantages, becomes one of the least sympathetic characters ever portrayed. Hence the power of the scene in 'Villains', where, after repeatedly trying to kill the vengeful Willow, he is shown to be tortured at length, before being flayed. Moral ambiguity galore. Just what are we supposed to feel? He got his comeuppance? Willow was within her rights to inflict torment on a lying, murderous, deceitful man? Or that she was deeply wrong, and that, as Buffy considers, prison is the punishment?

We can see such indelible logic in Willow's argument that Tara, the most sympathetic and caring member of the Scooby Gang in Season Six, deserves to live in the place of Warren, that we switch between sides like crazy. Ultimately, as a statement of bald fact, both Willow and Warren are murderers. Which just goes to show how much room 'bald fact' leaves open for Masquerade's fascinating 'moral ambiguity'.

TCH

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the (ATPoBtVS) Forum! -- Rob, 09:48:20 10/25/02 Fri

I was thinking about something fun we could do here at the board, what with the no new Buffy for over a week and all, and I thought...how about we all pick our favorite funny moments at the Board?

I will begin with my favorite funny moment, the best out of my many flubs and screw-ups, something from months and months ago that still makes me laugh...

When I posted about Amsterdam, and how they give daily legal injections of heroin to the drug addicts.

Of course, that's not what I wrote. What I wrote was "give them daily lethal injections of heroine."

And then Masq responded, "Daily lethal injections? Don't you think that would kill them a little bit?"

Another great response from someone else (I can't remember who) was that we get weekly injections of "heroine," watching Buffy.

LOL! Two horrible typos in the same sentence...and wackiness doth ensue!

So, what are your favorite funny moments at the Board?

Rob

[> Pressing the archives link above might jog your memory... -- Masq, 09:59:44 10/25/02 Fri

And don't forget, we aren't without any Buffyverse fun this coming week!

"Slouching Toward Bethlehem", Sunday, 9 p.m., on your local WB or WB-like station!

[> [> Re: Pressing the archives link above might jog your memory... -- Rob, 11:06:19 10/25/02 Fri

And don't forget, we aren't without any Buffyverse fun this coming week!

"Slouching Toward Bethlehem", Sunday, 9 p.m., on your local WB or WB-like station!

Yes, I know! And I can't wait!!! I can't quite tell how I've survived all these years with only one Whedon show a week to watch.

Rob

[> [> Firefly tonight, folks (title spoiler within) -- Vickie, 11:42:12 10/25/02 Fri

"Out of Gas" will be broadcast tonight. See? We're really really spoiled. Only two new Whedonesque episodes this week and we're whining.

As for my favorite funny board moment: Yesterday. The musical. Even if I wasn't cast.

[> [> Ooooh... Yeatsish goodness. Title spoiler repeated -- Tchaikovsky, 14:38:05 10/25/02 Fri

Somebody may have mentioned this before, but if so I've missed it. Presumably 'Slouching towards Bethlehem' is a refernce to the Yeats poem 'The Second Coming'.

What does this suggest to people?

To me:
Firstly, obviously there's the theological angle in the title. Is someone coming again?

Secondly, the end of the poem relates pretty closely to this whole big evil vibe going on in Sunnydale at the moment;

'And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?'

I for one would like to find out exactly what 'rough beast' we have in store.

A great poem, incidentally. It's scary and visionary, even if ultimately it doesn't appear to relate to anything which has yet occurred. Although some big Yeats-fans have claimed it is a prophecy of Hitler, apparently. I should probably shut up, being so clode to people who've just given papers on Yeats!

Anyway, just a thought

TCH

[> [> [> Re: Ooooh... Yeatsish goodness. Title spoiler repeated and other spec -- aliera, 18:09:52 10/25/02 Fri

There has, especially back in May and then again in July...if you want to go and look these posts do come up on the search engine under Yeats and "Second Coming". I checked because there's been some trouble finding other things. This continues to come up on other boards that I read also and this summer there was some discussion on Chinua Achebe's (Sp?) book " Things Fall Apart", named after the poem and which actually I believe Rah referenced here at one point(I'm not sure where that post is located.) My son's freshman english class is reading this book now and the version they have has additional readings that complement the story including the Yeats poem, Genesis 22: 1-19 The Sacrifice of Isaac, a poem called "Prayer to Masks" by Leopold Senghor and an essay by George Orwell titled "Shooting an Elephant" amongst other yummy things.

The Second Coming

"The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle..."

The Exiles-Mark Strand

Everything faded
around their voices
until only their voices were left,
telling the story.
And after the story,
their voices were gone.

They were not gone
and the story they told
was barely begun...

Their sighs were mixed
with the sighs of the wind.
And when the moon rose,
they were still going back.
And when the trees
and houses reappeared,
they saw what they wanted:
the return of the story
to where it began.

[> [> [> [> Now there's a great book -- ponygirl, 07:01:39 10/26/02 Sat

Thing Fall Apart is excellent, both as a complement to Heart of Darkness but also as an examination of the roles and personas we take on, the images or masks we can create for ourselves. The protagonist is so wrapped up in NOT being his father, in NOT being seen as weak that he -- well you should read the book. I can't remember if there was some discussion of the book here, though I do seem to remember William the Poet mentioning it over at the Stakehouse (a place I am trying to avoid, oh spoiler-free is such a hard road!).

[> [> [> [> Achebe, Yeats, Conrad -- Rahael, 07:49:51 10/26/02 Sat

I wrote about this at the Cross and Post as well, when I was taking a break from this board, but I've mentioned it more briefly here a couple of times.

"[> [> [> [> Chinua Achebe was referencing the Yeats Poem -- Rahael, 05:12:12 07/05/02 Fri

and also Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness'. It was in many ways a critique of western thinking about Africa - the beast slouching its way to Bethlehem (aka Western Civilisation) from the dusty deserts of a dark and foreign land.

The fact that Tara uses that line (it may have been a well known phrase before, but it is now inextricably linked with the second coming) and Spike goes to Africa is too much of a link not to take in the complexities of all the ideas, both literary and political that now envelope this phrase.

Yeats had some very odd ideas. This makes him the only poet who I quote who I actually do not like.

I don't like the 'Second coming' but I will admit to liking 'Sailing to Byzantium' - that dolphin torn, gong tormented sea! and 'Leda and the Swan' - because of its beautiful structure.

The Lake Isle of Innisfree, so often quoted is an actual example of a 'great' poet writing bad poetry. (to continue the bad poetry discussion up here"

Must explain the post above was in response to another poster who was arguing that things fall apart was a common phrase in English, and might not refer to Yeats. Though I haven't heard of this phrase anywhere but as a reference to Yeats, and the fact that a forthcoming Angel ep is also taken this poem puts the reference beyond doubt.

Here's another post I made about it:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"[> [> [> [> [> 'Things fall apart ' - Yeats and Chinua Achebe (Spoilers for Villains) -- Rahael, 16:53:43 05/19/02 Sun

Away from home, no time for a detailed post. But its worth remembering that the line 'Things fall apart' doesn't just have a resonance from Yeats - a beast slouching its way toward western civilisation from the deserts of Africa.

Chinua Achebe specifically meant 'things fall apart' as a rejoinder to Western writers such as Yeats and Conrad, who saw Africa as the home of all things uncivilised and barbaric.

My take on the primal slayer was simply a nod to Africa as the cradle of civilisation. Tying Africa in with Buffy specifically was very important, I felt. And I repeat an earlier argument I made. The Uber Vamp family is very white, very European. And Spike journeying to Africa, is like his whole journey this year - touching the heart of the primal slayer, connecting with Buffy."

[> [> [> [> [> Re: -- aliera, 09:32:20 10/26/02 Sat

I appreciate you reposting that Rah...I am pressed for time right now and wasn't able to search the archives. Yes, Yeats is quite a character. But I was reminded again last night of the image of the gyre that was so important to him...spiral...serpent...labyrinth.

Ben is working on a bio of Anne Rice this week also, so we have been looking at some vamp essays in general for perspective (of course I get pulled onto to other paths and have been looking at modern Goth also.) History. Cultural importance. Metaphor of course. One of the primary associations for Bram Stoker's Dracula was with power/aristocracy/etc. As I understand it, most of the vampire legends prior were quite different. The creature was not glamorous or aristocratic. There was a tendency to project fear and hatred onto external forces and use the vampire as a physical representation of the feared and that continued in Dracula. The transgessive desires in this case are fought, defeated, dismissed. Since that time the archetype has been expanded to include many other associations as well and led to it's own genre. This is often placed as a result of the events of the 1900's and man's realization of his capabilities for destruction along with writings in pyschology about the different aspects of the pysche and the blurring of boundaries between cultures. Margaret Carter has some interesting essays out on the net. In "Different Blood" (which I recommend along with her others) she explores the vampire as alien, The Other, and discusses how the metaphor has been pervasively recreated for our times. Interesting fictional work by Yarbro, Charnas, and Newman in the later part of the last century. I liked Huff, Hambly, and Hamilton too, plebian that I am. The tendency is to humanize, glamorize point out the similarities between the human and the alien. The human often crosses over or becomes more aware of the monster. The monster is again and again drawn to humanity to life.

"Authors portray characters eager to to embrace the risk (death) because the desire to touch the mind of the Other expresses a perennial human longing." --Carter

"culturally, this creature may be higly adaptable" and "can be made to appeal to or generate fundemental urges located somehow beyond culture (desire anxiety fear) while simultaneously, it can stand for a range of meanings and positions within culture." --Ken Gelder, same essay

Perhaps, the greying of the characters...their increased relationships with the demonic (Anya Spike) and the humanization of those demons along with the recognition of the demon in humans (Warren) is a reflection of this in the Buffyverse a reflection of the increased complexity of the characters as they mature and confront the Other, both externally and as a spark for the internal confrontation. As noted above, the desire to assume the state of the Other to communicate to understand pervades this current depiction. Just as we have Spike's disclosure in FFL, Rice's vampires have the need to seek disclosure. Louis in IWtV and Lestat in his bio and music seek (even at the expense of breaking their culture's rules) to explain their state, to communicate.

" I don't want to be an anonymous predatory shadow doomed to be misunderstood and only destroy."

They are a reflection of much of our own needs. Just as Joss's ahow is. Just as poetry can be, and Yeats and Conrad and Achebe's work are, even if not in their inception, certainly in their continuing force. I've rambled so I'm going to Coda here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Very interesting! -- Rahael, 11:11:57 10/26/02 Sat

I want to respond properly when I'm not just about to rush out for a dinner party - so just keeping this alive a little longer.

But you've certainly hit on why I find the exploration of darkness on BtVS so compelling

[> [> [> I kinda see it this way.. -- Rufus, 21:25:32 10/25/02 Fri

What Yeats poem brings to mind is the fact that no matter how much we think we've learned or evolved....repetition goes tend to occur. In the Buffyverse there is this big ol dust up between good and evil, and every once in awhile they change places in domination. One cycle ends just as one begins counting down to the next "Second Coming". Even if Buffy wins a battle doesn't mean there won't be any more wars.

Who are you people? -- Deb, 10:35:21 10/25/02 Fri

I can't even remember how I got here. And this place in cyberspace is really quite different. Canadians, cats, trolls (who are these trolls by the way?) Almost everyone presents an interesting, thoughtful picture of what's ticking inside of their head, but I have a tendency to post and not lurk first. And like I said, this place is quite different. You keep statistics. You print out threads. You make vague allusions. This is a different experience. I'm not accustomed to people who can converse intellectually about so many things, and still keep it all focused on the Buffyverse frame. This has been an aspiring week. So much so, that I went to the department head, and suggested a special topics class on Buffy/Angel and now he's looking for the money to do it! I've also limited my thesis topic to "Technology, Crisis and Social Change as Represented in the 'Buffyverse'." I would also like to ask permission to quote from the board. Of course, "this author" would "indeed" ask the specific person, "personally" regarding the specific quote. I'm undead for the weekend, but if anyone has any suggestions on texts, angles, etc. please feel free to email me at: deb_lovelace@hotmail.com.

Thanks!
(and enough said)

[> Re: Who are you people? -- shadowkat, 11:59:44 10/25/02 Fri

Quickly:

trolls: are horrible cyberspace creatures who pop up on fanboards and bash our favorite show, characters and board posters without any clear arguement or discussion. If you search the archives - there's a couple you'll see.
They usually do it with something like: "Spike is a rapist beast and should be staked" or "Btvs is a teenybopper show with 0 merit" or "Btvs jumped the shark ages ago - you people are morons" in the subject line with no analysis within. This usually results in a long discourse on the board of a)defending Spike/defending Btvs b) screaming at the troll. c) discussing the philosophical meaning of bashing characters and shows and fans on fan boards. LOL! I think somewhere in the links above they define trolls in greater detail. I didn't know what one was until March of this year.

2. For your thesis? I did an essay on Robot Metaphors that may or may not be helpful several months back. This essay can be found on www.geocities.com/shadowkatbtvs and in the Atpobtvs archives - for discussion on it - search the archives, I think I posted it sometime in June. Can't remember. Feel free to quote me. Even if you don't agree with me. I don't mind.

ps: were you the wonderful "Don't Hurt Me" poster??

SK

[> [> Re: Who are you people? -- Deb, 12:54:26 10/25/02 Fri

Yes. I'm "Don't Hurt Me." lol. It was just so "risky" for me to do that kind of post because trolls at other boards loved to get dirty, and that's just not my style. I knew these trolls as Flamers. Interesting. I hadn't post anywhere on the Internet for three years.

Thanks -- for the "wonderful" and willingness to assist.

[> [> [> Glad to meet you under your *real* pseudonym! -- HonorH, 15:01:51 10/25/02 Fri

That post was great fun. Please do stick around. We need someone who can both analyze BtVS into the ground and serve up Jungian parodies.

[> [> [> It was truly wonderful -- shadowkat, 19:59:02 10/25/02 Fri

Your "Please Don't Hurt Me Post" is one of the best parodies/satires I've read on the internet and elsewhere on scholarly thought. It was truly brillant because you allowed those you parodied in on the joke and to laugh with you. I appreciate good parody and satire, because I believe it is so difficult to pull off and well, I'm really lousy at it. (Hence my tendency not to participate in the demon alter-ego threads) I tend to be better at wry tongue in cheek wit. ;-) or so I'm told.

You're essay made me laugh harder than anything since D'Horrible's review of Help. Actually I think harder than I did for that. Bravo. It made a bad day at work bearable.
Please do more!

[> [> Re: Who are you people? -- Olaf, 14:23:46 10/25/02 Fri

I knew it. You board, performing more analyses. I could be out pillaging, devouring babies, making merry with the local virgins, but instead, I had to come all the way back here to post insults.

[> I think we've got a winner -- Etrangere, 12:32:28 10/25/02 Fri

to the question 'who are the Existential Scoobies ?'.
Someone's answer is another's question.

[> [> LOL! Oh that's good. This author, indeed, personally, finds it to be delicious. nt -- Deb, 12:58:07 10/25/02 Fri

[> Re: Who are you people? -- Masquerade, 12:46:46 10/25/02 Fri

Who am I: ATPoBtVS/AtS webmistress, discussion board administrator.

Who are the posters: a great group of unbelievably fun and learned people from a wide variety of disciplines and life experience

Our basic philosophy of posting, to quote from one poster, "People search for deeper meaning because they want and need to, not because it's "necessary " or "appropriate." Whether the meaning actually exists is almost besides the point. BtVS is the common language we use to discuss whatever is important to us-justice, morality, sex, friendship, fate, God, whatever. This board lets us conduct conversations with like-minded people that range from the ridiculous to the sublime, and that is a wonderful thing-rare, and worth having. Where Buffy is shallow we spackle in the depth, and where it is deep, we plung our minds into the heady intellectual malestrom of discussion, argument and debate. Hamlet used a silly play to work on the conscience of his king-we use a tv show about a pretty vampire killer to examine ours" (Arethusa, 7/05/02 6:37).

[> [> Wow. I may stay awhile. -- Deb, 13:11:06 10/25/02 Fri

I've had this sickening feeling this semester that I have "outgrown" the university I attend. There are very few profs. who can even follow by train anymore. I'm not bragging here. Life is not fun when no one else speaks your language, and then they stamp you "nuts" and throw you off into the margins. Dying is so easy. Living is so extraordinairily difficult yet so sublime. It hurts so good, and I just got to know why.

Well, time to be undead. Thanks for the eye-popping week. Until Sunday: Nevermore.

[> [> [> Please stay!!!!!! -- Sophie, 13:24:38 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> [> Do stay! -- HonorH (trying to get Honorificus to shaddup), 13:27:51 10/25/02 Fri

This is the only posting board I frequent, largely because it's the only place where you can guarantee intelligent discourse. Which isn't to say we can't be pretty darn silly, as you've no doubt noted by Dedalus' rollicking musical and the occasional appearances of our Super-Evil Alter-Egos. New voices are always welcome, so please stay and share!

(Honorificus adds: Yes, new blood is always welcome. The old stuff gets to tasting stale after awhile.)

[> [> [> [> Re: Do stay! -- Dedalus, 14:26:41 10/25/02 Fri

Silly?! Silly?! You thought my musical was silly?!

It was suppose to be an incisive discourse on the postmodern alienation and false problem of causality that erupts when the subject-object dichotomy of Platonic thought is carried out to psychologically destructive extremes as opposed to the more experiential non-dual reality that naturally erupts in the subliminal cadences of song and dance.

I outflank four thousand years of Western thought, and you think it's "silly."

Sheesh.

[> [> [> [> [> Oh, get off it! -- HonorH, 14:56:58 10/25/02 Fri

Pseudo-Platonic dichotomies and existential discourses served up in prosody are a dime a dozen. On the other hand, were you to do a Socratic interpretation of our board in iambic pentameter, I'd be mightily impressed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sonnet CXLVII -- Tchaikovsky, 15:16:14 10/25/02 Fri

As HonorH bestrides our humble board
We see her human side, yet demon too,
At once a peasant changing to a lord,
As Honorificus has post-time too!
Duality of personage, is not
What Platonists would haply call ideal,
And ofttimes is a noble post forgot
While monster lurks with brazen rods of steel.
For while this board is strictly democratic,
And all may venture what they will for show,
You'll find that any posts hyper-Socratic
Will swiftly archived be; while those who know
Of Campbell and the Hero's Journey muck,
Will chatter on at length, to our worse luck.

Poem copyright Latter Day Shakespeare sect 2002.
Should not be reproduced for public performances, particularly near Campbellians.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay, I'm mightily impressed. -- HonorH, 15:19:03 10/25/02 Fri

I bow to your talent, O Pseudonymous Russian Composer!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Notes -- Anti-Tchaikovsky, 15:25:26 10/25/02 Fri

4: Line is disputed. Many experts believe this should read
'As Honorificus can post in lieu',
to avoid two identical words in the rhyme-scheme. Others merely put it down to Tchaikovsky's inability to write poetry of any discernible quality

11: Some argue the nonce-word 'hyper-Socratic' is an amalgam made by latter day revisionists, who believed they knew better than the original bard, who wrote
'You'll find that posts of nature High Socratic'.
However, the High Socratic era, not being referred to in any historical reference book known to this dubious annotater, is probably a sign of Tchaikovsky's lack of knowledge on subjects historical.

13: The insult of Campbell and his blueprint of the Hero's Journey is in bad taste, distorts the argument of the sonnet, and is a show of Tchaikovsky's complete lack of sensibility.

14. The use of the first person plural is ungainly and rabble-rousing. Does the author seriously believe that anyone of any limited intelligence will doubt that Campbell is the God of al things philosophical. Bah!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOLOL Tchaikovsky -- Rahael, 15:42:07 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sonnet CXLVII -- Yksvokiahct, 16:07:50 10/25/02 Fri

Line 1:
Here Honor H, the apparent protaginist, is in reality no more than our first metaphor for Buffy. Notice how the word 'bestrides' builds up the stature of the being in question, while the adjective 'humble' similarly detracts from the plane on which she is standing. This of course reflects Buffy's ability to be the Hero of Sunnydale, and to save the world from 'the forces of darkness'.

Line 2: Of course, we are to see both sides of Buffy before the end of the Series'. The human side notably comes to the fore in 'The Gift' and 'Primeval', where she shows real love for her friends. Conversely,, we see her demon side as she sleeps with the Dead Vampire Evil (hereafter DVE) Spike in 'Smashed'.

Line 3: The peasant changing to a Lord here is obviously a trivial subversion of what we are supposed to be thinking here. The DVE, it is clear from 'Fool For Love', was once a Lord, or darned near it. However, by the time of the Show's era, he is merely a snivelling, soulless peasant, lurching from one crypt to the next. Not to mention his apparent alcohol and narcotic problems.

Line 4: While we are supposed to concentrate on the edifying and enlightening human sides to the show, it is often degraded by too much screen-time being given to the DVE and other assorted evil monsters. Here the sonnet makes a subtle suggestion to Mutant Enemy. One which they will no doubt callously ignore.

Line 5: 'Duality of personage' here refers, clearly, to Angel/Angellus. The dichotomy between his one-time and now-time personalities inflict a schizophrenia in the viewer only partly allayed by swift and authoritative diegesis by the Wise Saviour, (hereafter WS), Giles. In using 'personage', the author suggests the link by using espousedly archaic, (therefore British) language. How charmingly quaint.

Line 6: The Platonists, are, naturally, nothing more or less than the repugnant Buffy/Angel shippers, who appear to belive that there version of corpse/maiden love is somehow an Ideal version. Of course, as Plato's nonsensical ideals are easily shown to be oafish conjecture, so is the Buffy/Angel relationship, speedily and advisedly replaced by a much more edifying showing with Buffy and Riley. Love as it should be, I would say.

Live 7: The question of nobility is again raised here. Clearly, the primary 'noble' who is 'forgot' is the DVE, who used, as clearly referenced in 'Fool For Love', to be a Lord. However, we are perhaps also supposed to think of the WS, who is overlooed latterly by Mutant Enemy writers, for no reason. This leaves a spiritual vacuum, which only the most vapidly stupid would suggest is conducive to edifying interreactions between the remaining young adults.

Line 8: The 'brazen rods of steel' are almost certainly phallic symbols, both for the DVE, and Angel. They attempt to hijack the purity of the core members, (CM, if you will), by showing them some kind of hypothetical 'dark side'. Such apparent bad role models should NOT be tolerated on network television.

Line 9: While the world in which we live appears to be 'strictly democratic', we in fact live in a world where low-quality filth wrecks our screens. Instead of sensible, Christian discussion, with parables, we are made to chew over the works of Joss Whedon's foul imagination. I have better ideas for shows in prime-time.

Line 10: By this stage, the author reaches the crux of the poem. We may all attempt to live our lives without the sporadic hounding of fools and idiots. But be assured that DVE is as destined to disrupt CM and WS as our Lord is to return to Earth. Why UPN persists in showing this far-fetched, morally horrific show is quite beyond me. 'Touched by an Angel' continues to set standards for other programmes to match.

Line 11: Yet in this world, a 'hyper-Socratic' text, (one which may be philosophically true, while remaining faithful to the tenets of the exalted Christian faith and its Holy Book), we are constantly bombarded by statements of 'value' and 'quality' beyond any rationalist, evangelist standards. It's quite beyond me that this show can be previewed at a time when it is quite conceivable that under 21's could be watching

Line 12: Questioning voices of sense, like this one, will be 'swiftly archived'. Thrown out as worthless, despite all our best intentions to enrich Family Life. Something that incarnations of DVE's shall never do.

Line 13: Here my author makes a very similar point to me. Buffy, [here 'The Hero's Journey'] is good-for-nothing, degrading pornography. Down with Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy.

14: I shall continue to maintain my almost sole resistence in the chatter, while hoping that any who find it correct to debase airwaves with shows of this nature shall be roundly dealt with in The Second Coming

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And finally... -- Plain old Tchaikovsky, 16:13:31 10/25/02 Fri

I'd like to apologise to the genius which is Vladimir Nabokov for spending the last hour apeing his idea. Pale Fire, for those who haven't read it, is one of the books of last century. Go read!

It's the long, cold winter evenings.

I had fun, anyway

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And finally... -- aliera, 17:36:46 10/25/02 Fri

Quite wonderful, Tchaikovsky! 'Course you know what Campbell had to say about poets, right? ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Echoing support for Pale Fire -- shadowkat, 20:03:48 10/25/02 Fri

Very interesting book - it parodies and examines the insanity of criticism and poetry in one piece.

One of my favorites...and since I read it six years ago and can still remember it, that says a lot.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Pale Fire -- aliera, 07:15:12 10/26/02 Sat

Adding it to my list!

[...] reality is neither the subject nor the object of true art which creates its own special reality having nothing to do with the average "reality" perceived by the communal eye.
Vladimir Nabokov, Pale Fire

from: The Electronic Labyrinth

Vladimir Nabokov's 1962 novel, Pale Fire, is widely considered a forerunner of postmodernism and a prime example of the literature of exhaustion. The novel has four distinct sections. The first is a "Forward" by a man who calls himself Charles Kinbote. Kinbote, who claims to be a scholar from the country of Zembla, relates how he befriended the American poet John Shade. Following Shade's untimely death, Kinbote was entrusted with the manuscript of the poet's last major work, a long autobiographical poem called "Pale Fire." Despite the many reservations of others concerning his authority to do so, Kinbote has edited the work for publication. The second section is the poem itself, divided into four cantos. It is followed by the third, and longest section, Kinbote's own idiosyncratic commentary and line by line glosses. The fourth section is an index in which Kinbote provides brief capsule descriptions of the major people and places of the text and its accompanying commentary.

It's sounds fascinating...thanks guys.

[> Re: Who are you people? -- Drizzt, 22:24:18 10/25/02 Fri

Howdy;)

I am a former reg/accepted member here...and now I am 'sort of' a Troll.

Troll=
1. Someone who posts subjects that are off topic.
2. Someone who is rude, or generally offensive.
3. Me; explaining ME would take more than a sentance...but my deal IS on topic in a way, it is about the Buffyverse;)

Buffy's last season. -- afterlife, 12:03:19 10/25/02 Fri

Just found this article over at TVGuide Online:

http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/021025a.asp

It's starting to look like this is the last season of BtVS.

[> I can live with that -- Masq, 12:50:54 10/25/02 Fri

I like the part about "leaving with dignity" the most. SMG indicated she wanted to leave, and a BtVS without Buffy would not be the same show.

I shudder to think of BtVS going the way of X-files.

I think people will continue to come to this site to discuss BtVS. I hope they will.

Let Angel carry on the Buffyverse and maybe "Ripper", too?

[> [> Buffy forever? -- DickBD, 14:06:44 10/25/02 Fri

I suspect that Buffy will continue to be discussed and analyzed, even after the show has (sob!) come to an end. After all, we will still have all our tapes and DVDs. Besides that, Josh is bound to keep something going. He is obviously an unusual genius. I sort of hate to see SMG go on to doing drek like "Scooby Doo" (but I say that without having seen the movie, even if I did read the reviews). I don't know anything about her personally, but she has done some fine acting in BtVS. (I did tape Saturday Night Live just because she was hosting, but that was to see any references to Buffy and to get an idea of her sort of natural personality.)

So I rather suspect we'll all be here--even those of us who mostly lurk.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy forever? -- Masq, 14:10:57 10/25/02 Fri

Just as the end of the season gives us a broader perspective on character's motives and the themes explored, the end of the series should do so as well.

Plus I'll be sad if everyone just goes away! : (

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy forever? -- Dedalus, 14:36:47 10/25/02 Fri

No one is just going to go away. I am pretty sure of that. This board has taken on far too many social implications for everyone just to pack their bags and leave. Plus, we can still analyze old episodes for some time to come.

I think this may be the last season too. It seems they're kind of building to that. If so, it would be good to go out on the high note that seems to be building. Plus, the Return is the last leg of the Hero Journey. Going back to the "beginning" and all that hoopla.

I shudder to think of BTVS going the X-Files way as well, but I doubt we have that to worry about. This is Joss. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of spin off, provided they don't still call it Buffy and give sufficient reason for doing so. And Angel I kinda think might go on.

Also, there has been talk of another Buffy movie. I know, it goes back and forth, but I don't think it's impossible.

And if that's the case, we just all need to show up and rent out an entire theater.

:-P

[> [> [> [> [> Oh, don't worry... -- Masq, 14:45:25 10/25/02 Fri

For as long as Angel continues, and I hope that will be a few more years, I will continue to add fresh episode updates to my site and search the board for juicy quotes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh, don't worry... -- Dedalus, 14:50:20 10/25/02 Fri

Masq, if all else fails, we were discussing something at my very nice author/musical chat last night.

Ronia got to talking about doing an Existential Scooby version of Restless. Then of course, we got to thinking about who would be in it. The only way to get everyone worked in is just to rework every single episode! I almost ran screaming from the mere suggestion - the musical about laid me out - but in the worst case scenario, and we get bored enough ...

Just rewrite the entire BTVS history to make it ATPOBTVS history.

And in so doing, continue the genre I have apparently created - FanFanFiction.

:-P

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh, don't worry... -- Drizzt, 22:18:57 10/25/02 Fri

Hey Ded;)

A request; if you DO do an ATPoBTVS version of Restless...could you make a part for me?

I was not in the musical;(

Later.

[> [> [> [> [> Plus... -- Rob, 15:22:01 10/25/02 Fri

As I continue to plod through my episode annotations, which at the rate I'm going is gonna take 2 or 3 years to complete, this could continue to inspire discussion here at the board on Buffy's earlier eps.

Also the fact that once the entire show is finished, and we have the entire story in perspective, we can go back and reanalyze the arcs for everybody, all the way from the beginning. I can't see myself leaving the Board anytime in the near, or far future, whether there are new "Buffy" eps on or not (although I kinda wish there were, as long as SMG stays).

Rob

[> [> [> I saw Scooby Doo... -- ZachsMind, 14:27:25 10/25/02 Fri

I would classify it as "drek." I wasn't expecting much, yet was still disappointed.

Next season, those who are still on contract could be moved over to Angel. Imagine Dark Willow teaming up with an over-the-edge Spike to go toe-to-toe with Angel for a few episodes. That'd be fun. Xander definitely wouldn't fit in anywhere in Angel's L.A. though. He'd need his own series I reckon. Maybe with Amy, Jonathan and Clem as supporting cast.

[> [> [> [> I liked Scooby Doo. Nothing brilliant, but good for a few laughs. SMG was adorable in it, IMO. -- Rob, 15:34:22 10/25/02 Fri

It was fun to see her lighter side...and also a hoot to see her being all stereotypically "girly" when it comes to demony things.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> OT Scooby Doo Revioo! -- ZachsMind, 16:13:21 10/25/02 Fri

The writing was below caliber. The best lines were subpar. The director couldn't decide if he wanted to parody the original or take the source material seriously. I've NEVER seen potty humor in a Scooby Doo cartoon, so it had no place in the film (if they had to, they could have at least made it FUNNY!). Rowan Atkinson's brilliant talent was poorly utilized, like putting Peter O'Toole in a Peanuts Holiay Special. The cgi of Scooby was occasionally absolute perfection but at other times claymation would have been preferable. At the end of the episode I questioned whether a live action version was an improvement over the cartoon.

SMG's performance in the film was like watching an Olympic swimmer in a pool filled with jello. The role of Daphne was cookie cutter and lackluster, demeaning to a talent of her caliber. They attempted to make her more well-rounded but the words that came out of her mouth were false and hollow. They coulda put Gary Busey in that wig and dress and it wouldn't have mattered. In fact it woulda been funnier.

The only saving grace of the entire film was Matthew Lillard as Shaggy. He injected into the role a depth of reality and a warmth of heart that I found pleasantly surprising. It wasn't just that he got the talk or the walk down. He understood what made Shaggy tick. Of course it's kinda hard to miss cuz the script practically telegraphs it, ("You don't leave a friend!" I believe it's actually in the script) but despite the cartoony quality, he was also able to give dimension to Shaggy on an almost cerebral level. The other performers, including SMG, were like amateurs in a high school play compared to Lillard.

Freddie Prinze Jr? Ugh. Don't git me stahted. He made me wanna throw Scooby Snacks at the screen.

[> [> [> [> [> [> And OH YEAH (Scooby Moovie Spoolier) -- ZachsMind, 16:14:46 10/25/02 Fri

I could see Scrappy Doo was gonna be the surprise bad guy at the end the second they mentioned him. It was no end shock. Pretty damn predictable plot all the way through.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And more with the disagreeing... -- Rob, 19:20:43 10/25/02 Fri

Here's the reviews, all the way back from June, that were posted here at the site. One is vhD's and one is mine:

A 'Scooby Doo' Review -- posted by LadyStarlight, 06:44:01 06/17/02 Mon
It was a really cool movie. Fans of the cartoon will
get a kick out of the inside jokes. They dropped the
drug and lesbian inuendo, but that is more than made
up for by the attacks on Scrappy they did. Also, it
seemed at times that the cast was taking shots at
themselves (Fred seemed to be a characature of how
most people see Freddie, and Shaggy's comments during
the bodyswitching scene were funny).

I was very glad to see they did it right. Freddie and
Sarah did not hog the movie, and Sarah was actually in
character (the trailers made her look like Buffy).
And most amazingly, I actually liked Freddie in this
movie. He actually learned to act finally. I take
back a sixth of all the mean things I ever said about
him.

But hte best part was Scooby himself. It was hard to
believe seeing it that there was no dog tehre. It was
even better animated than the cartoon.

SO, my thoughts in a nutshell: Cool visuals, funny
story, good acting, hot babes (even Velma looked
good). Go see this movie Now!

Why are you still sitting there reading this!? Go see
it NOW!!!

vhD
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I saw it yesterday, and I thought it was great... (minor "Scooby Doo" spoilers) -- Rob, 07:44:09 06/17/02 Mon
SMG is a truly great comedienne (sp?). She WAS Daphne. It's that simple. From the voice to the facial expressions to her whole body language...she WAS Daphne. And she seemed to be having a great deal of fun. One great part, in particular, Fred and her souls switch bodies, so she (as Fred) is looking at her breasts, etc, and giving the most gleeful, adorable expression. Especially after seeing her play depressed for a year on "Buffy," it was so cool to see SMG kicking back and having a blast. She was without a doubt the best thing in the movie. Her comedic timing is a joy to watch.

Secondly, Matthew Lillard was the perfect Shaggy. He completely nailed the voice, and while he didn't look as close to the character as SMG, he gave a lot of heart to the character. There was a sweet innocence underlying his whole pseudo-stoner routine that lead to some great character moments. Yes, "Scooby Doo" does have character moments!

I'm not saying it's deep or anything, but I'd classify it as a cut above the rest of most "live-action cartoon" movies. The CGI Scooby was great, too. I had my doubts, from the commercials, but he was truly amazing. He struck just the right balance between realistic dog and cartoon dog.

The movie, on the whole, was a fun bit of fluff, certainly never boring, and totally worth seeing. There were some great in-jokes for "Scooby Doo" fans, including a rather brilliant (IMO) subplot that basically mocks Scrappy Doo relentlessly (and deservedly!). There were also a few (although very subtle) drug jokes, although, as Lady Starlight said, a lot of the more obvious ones, and the lesbian innuendo was cut out, to make it more family-friendly. All I can say is I hope that they release a director's cut on DVD, or at least have the extra scenes as supplements (perhaps a "PG" release and then a "PG-13" release, on a separate disk? I wanna see that Daphne/Velma action!).

I honestly never thought I would enjoy this movie so much, after reading mostly scathing reviews. But it was just plain fun. The screenplay and story were obviously written by a true fan of the cartoon, poking gentle fun at its subject, but still totally loving it.

And I think that's what I loved about the movie. The actors were uniformly great (yes, I can't believe, I actually enjoyed Freddie Prinze, Jr. in a movie! Gadzooks!), the sets were fun...oh, and the ingenious Rowan Atkinson, more widely known as "Mr. Bean" or "Black Adder," (who I think is one of the best British comedy actors, second only to John Cleese)is in it. What more could you ask for?

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Alas, the relevant information is -- Cleanthes, 20:58:39 10/25/02 Fri

Scooby Doo made a domestic box office of $158 million and a worldwide box office of $260 million. This assures sequels with big bucks for SMG.

Perhaps I'm too reticent with the word "dreck" but I would reserve that word for films more than a standard deviation worse than average for their type. Scooby Doo was easily the best movie ever made from an animated TV show. Okay, okay, that's damning by faint praise, considering the Flintstones movies and Bullwinkle, but still, homme moyen sensuel all over the world loved it.

I saw the film twice, because I promised my kids and it turned out that one of them couldn't make it the first time. I still love Scrappy as the villain; he reminds me of Richard Nixon or Al Gore or something... I was surprised the first time thru, but then, I didn't read any spoilers, heh.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I rented it yesterday -- Cactus Watcher, 21:29:06 10/25/02 Fri

The person I saw it with hated it. I didn't exactly hate it, but I was a little disappointed. I did think SMG was better than the critics gave her credit for. They've gotten into the habit of automatically panning Freddie (perhaps with reason). I think maybe they've decided his new bride should be treated the same way. I'd rather see SMG in better movies, but 3 million would be hard to pass up. It certainly would be a movie I wouldn't rent.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Alas, the relevant information is -- JM, 06:38:35 10/26/02 Sat

My husband bought it for me because SMG was in it (though I'm more of an AD, ASH, and AH fan). So I gave it a try to be nice. No it wasn't great, but it was cute and fun and perfect for a Friday night when you need to veg out with something that doesn't hurt your head. The cut scenes were great and I loved the alternate opening credits with the animated characters. Thought Freddie was a great Freddie, good sport too.

PS On a related note I finally saw a couple of episodes of "Manchild" and thought it and ASH are fantastic. I even wrote a little review. LOL.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry, can't agree with you there... -- BunnyK., 14:14:39 10/26/02 Sat

The best movie ever made from a TV cartoon is the South Park move. I realize it probably only appeals to a certain audience, but I just love it so much more than I could ever love Scooby Doo.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> the Southpark movie was animated, no? -- Cleanthes, 20:03:54 10/26/02 Sat

There have been fairly good movies made of animated TV shows where the movie was also animated.

I personally cannot think of an animated TV show made into a live-action movie that was better than Scooby Doo.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> So true! Sorry for the misread. -- BunnyK., 10:38:37 10/27/02 Sun

[> [> Don¥t be too sure about Angel continuing -- Dochawk, 15:41:32 10/26/02 Sat

Given Angel¥s ratings (which are improving) and more importantly DB¥s contract and wishes, don¥t be too sure Angel will survive. Though I do think a 5th year will happen, that may be all.

[> [> [> Agree... -- shadowkat, 14:47:21 10/27/02 Sun

From what i've read I think they are working hard for a 5th season because you need 100 epsiodes to sell to syndication.
That's why we don't have Angel in reruns yet.

Did I remember that wrong, Doc? I've read so many of these articles now that I'm starting to confuse them.

[> [> I'd like to see a spin-off with Spike/William. Willow & Faith. n/t -- Deb, 19:36:55 10/26/02 Sat

[> Re: Buffy's last season. -- akanikki, 12:51:36 10/25/02 Fri

With this very possibly being BTVS' last season (between poor ratings and other continuation problems), it might be a good idea to help Joss keep Firefly going and give him time to work out the kinks. Here's another Joss article at TVGuide asking for everyone to watch tonight, as it might make the difference between cancellation or not.
http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/021025b.asp

[> How much for Scooby Doo 2? -- Cleanthes, 12:52:14 10/25/02 Fri

With ratings declining, and I think the percentage decline mentioned in this article overstates the case, but even so, with ratings down, there's no way SMG can be paid a whole lot more to come back for a season 8.

She WILL, though, be paid big bucks for Scooby Doo 2, and probably 3. Making two more such movies is much less work than doing a season of BtVS. More $$$ for less work. Tough call?

UPN needs a quality show, but they need a *cheap* quality show. That means no signing up any actors who have star quality prices. No SMG, no Alyson Hannigan, alas.

NB might be affordable, and so would MT. Eliza has made a bunch of movies but none have pushed her into superstar territory. A Faith-Dawn spinoff would certainly have me firing up my VCR, and it'd probably be cheap enough for UPN to afford.

What is SMG's per episode salary? I read the other day that Alyssa Milano is paid $80,000 per episode, making the highest paid star on the WB. I don't suppose Sarah makes any more than that, and I'd guess she makes rather less. She'll get at least $3 million for Scooby Doo 2.

[> [> What I know from the articles and interviews on slayage.com -- shadowkat, 13:01:07 10/25/02 Fri

What I read was James Marsters, Alyson H. and Brendan had already signed contracts for three years after this one and all three made it clear in interviews or ME stated it in interviews.

The ones who haven't? MT, ASH, EC and SMG.

Emma swears this is her last year. She's done. She's the only cast member to state irrevocably that she won't resign and ME isn't pushing. SMG hasn't said one way or the other, and is stating one day at a time.

UPN loves the show and wants to keep it. Enterprise and Buffy are the only two good shows they have apparently.

Fox and Kuzi's own it not ME. Whedon just signed a four year development deal with Fox last year.

Angel has the worst ratings of any show right now according the beatings in the ratings article. And this is the last year of it's WB contract. Also UPN only had to pick it up last year. So Ats may get cancelled before Btvs if we pay attention to ratings.

Firefly is also suffering in ratings. But new episodes have been ordered so it has a chance.

So right now?? Anythings possible. They could cancel all three. Just cancel Angel. Just cancel Buffy. etc.

[> [> [> Re: What I know from the articles and interviews on slayage.com -- Cleanthes, 13:12:34 10/25/02 Fri

Angel has the worst ratings of any show right now according the beatings in the ratings article.

Wow, just the other day I read something about how Angel is doing ever so much better than what the WB had in that time slot last year. Of course, this doesn't necessarily disagree with what you say, since whatever they had there last year (I didn't watch and don't know) was certainly cancelled.

Hmm, a quick hunt on Google did not turn up the article about Angel & Charmed that I remember, but it did turn up this bit on a Trek site about genre shows:
http://talk.trekweb.com/articles/2002/10/09/1034182915.html

Ats's best hope is that the WB did not have great expectations for Sunday night, and, well, in the viewer's opinion, Charmed is better than ever.

[> [> [> [> Re: What I know from the articles and interviews on slayage.com -- aliera, 08:12:31 10/26/02 Sat

Rufus has a link elsewhere to Marti's lastest interview offering; I think it's worth looking at. Last spring Sara was saying she didn't want to go out the way she was after season six (I interpreted this as she was concerned about the negative perceptions of her character but that's just my take.) But lately, I have the sense that both she and Joss are ready...at least this seems to be the tone. My dream (although not realistic) is that Buffy would continue one more season and UPN would pick up Angel and they could pull the disparate (but linked) threads back together into one awesome weaved story. Hey, a girl can dream!

[> [> [> [> [> We share the same dream! -- shadowkat, 08:51:21 10/26/02 Sat

But whether they do it or not...sigh.

I'm sort of hoping this is what they do too...just because it feels like an 8 season arc to me. But I can understand why someone might want to leave after 7 seasons.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We share the same dream! -- Dariel, 09:57:20 10/26/02 Sat

Yes, that seems right to me too. Seems like all of the characters have enough issues left to make an 8th season interesting. But then, I may just be greedy--year ago 7 seasons sounded okay!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We share the same dream! -- aliera, 18:55:53 10/26/02 Sat

So true. But I can also understand the actors (and Joss) need to move on and explore other characters and stories. No matter what happens here (you know as a sidebar its hard not to post self-reflectively today) I feel that we're getting a very rich season. I came to an appreciation of season six primarily through the POV of posters here and at my other boards. It was not as easy of a season for me. No doubt I should have done the goth reading last year it would have been a better fit. But this season, even with it's worries and flaws... it is just leaving me feeling very sated yet enlivened, if you'll pardon the vamp wording. There are possibilities beyond even if Sara and Joss have interests elsewhere. The shift in tone of what we are hearing from ME caught my ear; but, its early days yet...so we'll just have to wait and see what develops.

[> [> [> [> [> [> But think about how much more productive we would be workwise if we weren't constantly writing posts -- alcibiades, 22:15:19 10/26/02 Sat

[> Re: Buffy's last season.- Can anyone say "BTVS the Movie(s)"? -- wiscoboy, 14:28:38 10/25/02 Fri

If done with the current cast, would be a heck of lot better than the 1st attempt.

[> [> You mean BtVS the Movie: II -- Masq : ), 14:41:46 10/25/02 Fri

[> [> Re: Buffy's last season.- Can anyone say "BTVS the Movie(s)"? -- monsieurxander, 14:43:53 10/25/02 Fri

If they did so, they would have to name it something differently. "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" has already been done. A new title would have to be employed in order to differentiate between the two.

"Sunnydale", perhaps?

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's last season.- Can anyone say "BTVS the Movie(s)"? -- wiscoboy, 06:20:25 10/26/02 Sat

You differentiate by trashing the first movie = about as bad as it gets.

Dawn in "Selfless" (spoilery) -- monsieurxander, 14:38:41 10/25/02 Fri

In Dawn's single scene in "Selfless", her advice to college-bound Willow was to "do what everybody else does." This sort of threw me for a loop. Why would this be Dawn's attitude in said scene? Earlier episodes in the season seemed, to me at least, to suggest that she was an outsider, who associated with nonconformists like Kit, Carlos, Cassie, etc... Why, then, would she give off the impression suddenly that one needs to follow the herd in order to get along?

[> Remember that we haven't actually *seen* most of Dawn's social life. -- HonorH, 14:49:46 10/25/02 Fri

She refers obliquely to "friends," but we've seen very few. She only associated with Kit and Carlos because they got stuck in the basement together--although before that, we did see her reaching out in sympathy to a stranger, Kit. It's possible Dawn makes friends very easily. OTOH, Dawn might well be somewhat of an outsider, and her advice to Willow is to follow the herd and *not* be one. Could be whichever.

[> [> Touche. -- monsieurxander, 15:27:48 10/25/02 Fri

Now that I think about it more, there is a bit of evidence of Dawn's yearning to be accepted by others.

In "The Body", she seemed awfully concerned about what people thought of her, relating tearfully to her friend Lisa about how humiliating getting called a "freak" was.

On the other hand, in her conversation with Kevin (the art class boy) in the same episode, she dumped on Kirstie because of her shallow stereotypical Susie Q High School atttitude... saying "There's way more crucial stuff going on."

So, yeah... seeing how that could go either way.

[> Dawn's Lament -- ZachsMind, 15:39:21 10/25/02 Fri

This was how I took it. Remember at the beginning of season six, Dawn had to hold the hand of Buffybot as she went to teacher parent day at the school? I got the feeling that this was where Dawn's bravado & confidence was coming from, that she'd already dealt with a 'freak' adult, in this case Willow, trying to survive in a scholastic environment.

Also, remember that Buffy's been teaching Dawn about female empowerment. This is just one of the ways Dawn's expressing it. Like last episode when she befriended Cassie as Buffy asked but then returned to the Scoobies with news and a theory, and they ignored her. She's asserting herself which is to be commended, but then the others largely ignore her efforts.

It's an observation I've noticed in silence among how many parents treat their children in public. When a child does the right thing, they are ignored, but when they make a mistake they're punished. So the only time a child gets attention is when they do wrong. Last year she felt she was being ignored, and reacted to that by turning into a kleptomaniac.

Dawn's asserting herself a bit much, but largely she's going in the right direction, and her guardians are responding to this by ignoring her. She doesn't exactly have a decent support system among her superiors, and it's only this season that we get more than a glimpse of her potential among her peers, who already see her as an outcast because of her sister.

It will be interesting to see where this leads.

Anya's Last Stand as a "Suicide by Cop" -- Rufus, 16:18:18 10/25/02 Fri

Upon watching Selfless one thing stuck in my mind and that was that her confrontation reminded me of something cops face too many times to count, individuals who want to go out of this mortal coil using an authority figure to help them. I see Anya and Buffy's confrontation as just that..suicide by cop.

Anya started the show in a state of realization she has never shown before as a vengeance demon. She enjoyed granting wishes before, her anger over being spurned by her love blocking any ability to feel for someone other than herself. In "Selfless" all she could do in that room with those dead boys was go "What have I done?". Anya could feel remorse for what she had done....even if later she half heartedly tried to explain to Willow they deserved it.

I feel that her new awareness and then despair put Anya in a state where not only was she suicidal, but she felt she had to be punished, and as the Slayer, Buffy was the highest authority figure Anya knew of to do the job.

If you notice Buffy may have taken 10 seconds to make the choice to kill Anya but that didn't mean she hadn't considered other options, it just makes the point that in the service of others, Buffy knew that there was a duty she had to innocents over demons. As they fought, Buffy had no quips, and Anya tried to goad her onto killing her. Buffy could only say "Anya - I'm sorry"

Anya: GET OUT OF HER WAY, XANDER. THIS IS GETTING TO BE A PATTERN WITH YOU, BUFFY. ARE THERE ANY FRIENDS OF YOURS LEFT YOU HAVEN'T TRIED TO KILL? COME ON, BUFFY. DON'T YOU HAVE A CLEVER RETORT FOR ME?

Buffy: ANYA, I'M SORRY.

Anya: YOU'RE APOLOGIZING TO ME? WHAT FIGHT ARE YOU WATCHING?
OR IS THIS LIKE ONE OF YOUR LITTLE POP CULTURE REFERENCES I DON'T GET BECAUSE I'M A VENGEANCE--OH! AAH!

As the Slayer Buffy is in a similar position as someone in Law Enforcement, and that is sometimes as an instrument of death for a suicidal individual who can't kill themselves or their need for punishment leads them to seek an authority figure to punish them in a permanent way. Buffy wasn't being heartless by contemplating killing Anya, she was protecting the populace from a demon who could have killed many more than the 12 (size of a jury?)boys Anya had. Anya felt she was at a point of no return, she had killed and no longer got joy from that, and she could see no way out.....except Buffy.

Suicide by Cop

The above is one of the many sites devoted to a problem that is only getting worse for the police. Buffy is in a similar situation, she may at any point have to kill someone because she is forced to, as they are a threat to others. If you look at the different sites you will see that there are two victims in the situation, the dead who for whatever reason saw a police person/Slayer as their only way out, and the Police officer/Buffy who has to live with the emotions that go on long after being forced to kill someone. Buffy was in that situation in Becoming 2 and again in Selfless. She isn't doing her job for fun it's real and very deadly.

[> Re: Anya's Last Stand as a "Suicide by Cop" -- Robert, 18:34:27 10/25/02 Fri

>>> "Buffy was in that situation in Becoming 2 and again in Selfless. She isn't doing her job for fun it's real and very deadly."

Let us also not forget that Cordelia on a couple occasions reminded Angel that she would not hesitate to kill him if it should ever become necessary.

What I believe may be most shocking about this episode was not so much the decision Buffy made, but the quickness she appeared to make it. During season 2, Buffy required nearly two months to really decide to kill Angelus. In "Selfless", it appeared to us (and to Xander) that she made the decision in seconds. Buffy said that she had already considered the issue before, and I don't see any reason to believe otherwise. In "Beneath You", Buffy devoted considerable effort to protect an innocent's life from one of Anyanka's mistakes. From Buffy's perspective, Anya didn't learn her lesson from that incident and now she perpetrated mass murder. If we can assume that the episodes occur in nearly "real time" then Buffy had probably been ruminating on this issue for three weeks.

The big issue isn't so much about what Anya did, rather what Anya would do next. If she wasn't stopped, it was likely more would die. Both Xander and Willow failed to talk Anya down. It took D'Hoffryn to salvage Anya (albiet at a very high cost). Buffy did not have D'Hoffryn as an option, since Willow didn't tell Buffy what she was planning -- I'm guessing because Willow didn't think it would work.

[> [> Re: Anya's Last Stand as a "Suicide by Cop" -- Sophie, 18:57:17 10/25/02 Fri

You don't think that Buffy has thought about killing Anya before this? As a viewer, I had. This was my first thought after the scoobies found out that Anya was Anyanka once more. I am glad that this was finally put on screen to be thought and fought about.

[> [> [> Re: Anya's Last Stand as a "Suicide by Cop" -- Robert, 19:35:19 10/25/02 Fri

>>> "You don't think that Buffy has thought about killing Anya before this?"

Yes, I do! Regretfully, I was unclear in my posting. Given that Buffy is the warrior (as well as cop, prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner) in the group, I would fully expect that she has learned to think in terms of contingency plans.

[> [> [> [> Re: Anya's Last Stand as a "Suicide by Cop" -- HonorH, 22:49:08 10/25/02 Fri

Perhaps this is why she didn't seek Anya out more. I mean, they were never precisely close--not nearly as close as Buffy was to Xander or Willow, or even Tara near the end--but the fact that Anya became a demon again, something the Slayer might have to fight, could very well have caused Buffy to distance herself. The situation with Spike would simply have cemented this: she let herself have feelings for him, and he turned on her. There would always be that thing in the back of her mind saying, "Remember: you may have to kill her." Not exactly conducive to warm fuzzies.

[> [> Re: Anya's Last Stand as a "Suicide by Cop" -- Rufus, 19:40:47 10/25/02 Fri

The big issue isn't so much about what Anya did, rather what Anya would do next. If she wasn't stopped, it was likely more would die. Both Xander and Willow failed to talk Anya down. It took D'Hoffryn to salvage Anya (albiet at a very high cost). Buffy did not have D'Hoffryn as an option, since Willow didn't tell Buffy what she was planning -- I'm guessing because Willow didn't think it would work.

I agree, Buffy is the Slayer and her first duty is to protect those innocents that have nothing to do with her private relations with any demon. Every night that Buffy goes out she has to decide what and if to kill....it's not something that will happen once in a career, but killing is a daily thing for Buffy. It all looks so simple that I feel the viewers have forgotten just how hard that choice can be, and sometimes how quickly the conclusion to kill can be made in. It is only in the emotional relationship with first Angel and subsequently Anya do we get a picture that killing has any emotional impact on Buffy at all. It's a given that she will kill, but I think we have forgotten that Buffy never chose her job and would much rather have a normal life than spend her time washing demon blood and guts off.

With Anya, Buffy knew that once she got killing her behavior would only escalate into further carnage, a chance Buffy didn't want to materialize. Sure she seemed to decide quickly to strap on a sword and deal with the threat, but she always knew that Anya would have to pick a side and if it wasn't hers, she would have to eliminate the threat, friend or not. In Anya's case, I feel that she had become so horrified at what she was, what she had been that she was in fact suicidal, and instead of killing herself she felt that it was only fitting to be taken out by the ultimate symbol of authority in the demon world and that is Buffy.

As for D'Hoffryn......he isn't on Buffy's side....he wasn't an option because he is against everything Buffy stands for. I do wonder how Willow 'convinced' D'Hoffryn to go intervene in the way he did..cause I feel that D'Hoffryn isn't into giving out free lunches.

[> [> [> There was no free lunch. -- HonorH, 22:44:07 10/25/02 Fri

I'm thinking Willow probably called D'Hoffryn up and explained to him that Anya was unhappy as a Vengeance Demon, and then he went to see if that was indeed the case. Making sure one of the girls in his stable was still loyal, as one might say. Upon finding that she wasn't, he granted her wish in as cruel a way as he could: murdering her oldest friend right in front of her. I don't call that a "free lunch." More like "taxation without representation."

[> [> [> [> Re: There was no free lunch. -- Rufus, 00:18:32 10/26/02 Sat

The thing is that due to Willow, D'Hoffryn did get into it....he did grant Anya's wish. So, how the hell did Willow convince him to do that....did a little bit of the Willow that attracted D'Hoffryn threaten to come out and play? Was it out of "selfless good will"....nah.....he got something.

[> [> [> [> [> D'Hoffryn and Willow -- Dariel, 09:21:16 10/26/02 Sat

I tend to agree with HonorH. D'Hoffryn was already aware of Anyanka's poor performance in the vengeance area; Willow tipped him off that more trouble was brewing. I think that was enough for him to get involved without Willow paying some price or threatening him.

With the Hellmouth awakening, it's definitly "fish or cut bait" time in the demon world. Willow's tip allowed D'Hoffryn to make an example of not one, but two VDs. She did him a favor.

Also, I certainly couldn't see a threat as being effective, because D'Hoffryn has more power. Remember Willow saying that she herself did not have the power to reverse the wish and/or bring back the frat boys? D'Hoffryn did it in a heartbeat.

[> [> [> [> [> 'Kay, Ruf, I think we're missing each other. -- HonorH, 09:21:34 10/26/02 Sat

There was no selfless good will. There was no Willow convincing him to grant Anya's wish. There was only D'Hoffryn having reason to doubt the loyalty of one of his stable. His granting her wish wasn't altruism; it was wanton cruelty. This was him punishing Anya, not helping her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Kay, Ruf, I think we're missing each other. -- Malandanza, 09:57:42 10/26/02 Sat

"His granting her wish wasn't altruism; it was wanton cruelty. This was him punishing Anya, not helping her."

Do you suppose Wilow will be waiting for Anya to thank her for the intervention? (Like she wanted Buffy to thank her for being yanked out of heaven :)

Seriously, though -- how far do you think that good intentions go towards excusing behavior that hurts? I don't doubt that Willow means well when she does things like the "ball of sunshine" debacle from Triangle, but at some point does someone tell Willow to stop helping?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Kay, Ruf, I think we're missing each other. -- Dariel, 10:16:56 10/26/02 Sat

Willow's actions led to the defanging of one vengeance demon, the death of another, and brought life back to 10 or 12 young men. How can you compare this to "Triangle?"

Are you really that concerned about Anya's being "hurt" in this episode? Seems like she got a fitting punishment to me. (I've read some of your posts--can't really see you as the "soft on demons" type!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: 'Kay, Ruf, I think we're missing each other. -- Malandanza, 14:59:36 10/26/02 Sat

"...can't really see you as the 'soft on demons' type!"

Not so much "soft on demons" as "hard on Willow." Anyanka, the (presumably soulless) vengeance demon showed more remorse for causing the deaths of a group of rather heartless frat boys than Willow (who presumably has a soul) has shown for the torture and murder of Warren. In fact, in this episode we got to see Willow filled with indignation when Buffy and Xander argued about Willow's own history.

After Anya became a vengeance demon, she helped save the world from Willow (at great personal risk). Anya has been trying to avoid doing evil not out of a desire for a reward (as Spike did) but in spite of the very real threat hanging over her. Anyanka, evil as she is, is more human than cute, but morally ambiguous, Willow.

"Willow's actions led to the defanging of one vengeance demon, the death of another, and brought life back to 10 or 12 young men. How can you compare this to 'Triangle?'"

Many times Willow has acted in secret, avoiding the authority figures to get away with a spell outside of supervision (because it's easier to get forgiveness than permission). Beginning with the Scapula spell in IOHEFY and the second ensoulment spell in B2, continuing in Triangle and in Season Six with the resurrection spell. Buffy has a cell phone. Willow could have called her and let her know what was going on -- or sent and ESP-o-gram, if the telephone is too pedestrian for her. Buffy should have known what was going on (wasn't Xander's Lie a reminder of this?) The problem with Willow acting unilaterally is that she (like Wesley on AtS) is unwilling to take personal responsibility when things go badly. There are just so many ways that Willow's plan could have gone wrong. I mean, summoning the demon that creates other vengeance demons and asking him to give Anyanka a break because her heart's really not in the vengeance? And Black Magic Girl is doing the ritual alone and unsupervised after her disturbing relapse earlier that same day? Willow got lucky that things turned out the way they did -- what if D'Hoffryn had taken Xander's life as the price instead of a Halfrek's? Would everyone still be thanking Willow? One life for a dozen is still a good trade, right?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Disagree on Willow -- alcibiades, 17:05:09 10/26/02 Sat

The problem with Willow acting unilaterally is that she is unwilling to take personal responsibility when things go badly. There are just so many ways that Willow's plan could have gone wrong. I mean, summoning the demon that creates other vengeance demons and asking him to give Anyanka a break because her heart's really not in the vengeance? And Black Magic Girl is doing the ritual alone and unsupervised after her disturbing relapse earlier that same day? Willow got lucky that things turned out the way they did -- what if D'Hoffryn had taken Xander's life as the price instead of a Halfrek's? Would everyone still be thanking Willow? One life for a dozen is still a good trade, right?

While obviously Willow has not been blameless in the past (huge understatement) I think she was heroic in Selfless.

In Beneath You, this is what Giles tells a Willow hesitating to leave because she doesn't believe she is yet ready to go home because she might make mistakes and screw up again:

WILLOW is seated in the doorway of the old stone house we saw in episode one. Coat on, bags packed. Giles joins her.

GILES: Trust yourself. And the others might follow.

And this is what we saw Willow do. She trusted that she knew the solution despite Buffy's overly firm position and Xander's overly apologetic one. She took action. And she succeeded.

Giles is absolutely right.

A Willow too afraid to act because the others might not approve or because she has fear she might screw up is a dangerously unempowered Willow -- and from that scenario

She might be wrong sometimes -- but boldness is also necessary for success.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, dear. I think I might actually agree with you. -- Dariel, 18:18:51 10/26/02 Sat

Or at least, I'll have to climb up on the fence on this one. See what happens next.

Have to admit that up until this episode, I was pretty uneasy about Willow. Especially after that "I feel responsible" line in STSP (to which Anya responded so appropriately "You are responsible!"). I don't see Willow dealing with any of the issues that drew her to the dark magics--desire for control, inability to assert herself appropriately and directly in her personal relationships, low self-esteem, etc.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Pounding the table* in a post -- Sophist, 21:21:40 10/26/02 Sat

Your original post in this thread implicitly criticized Willow for the results in Selfless ("when will she stop 'helping'"). Several people have pointed out that the results could hardly have been better. This post merely changes the subject.

Without getting into the he said/she said points,

in this episode we got to see Willow filled with indignation when Buffy and Xander argued about Willow's own history.

She offered a mild, entirely justified reproof when they discussed her as though she wasn't there. It wasn't her history to which she objected discussing, it was their present.

Many times Willow has acted in secret, avoiding the authority figures to get away with a spell outside of supervision (because it's easier to get forgiveness than permission). Beginning with the Scapula spell in IOHEFY and the second ensoulment spell in B2, continuing in Triangle

We must have different definitions of "secret" and of "spells". Creating a charm (or wearing one) is not casting a spell, nor is there any evidence at all that Willow used magic to create the charms. The spell in Becoming 2 had Buffy's permission and Willow not only told 3 other people before she did it, she told Xander to tell Buffy. It was Xander who lied and caused the harm. Similarly in Triangle, Willow made no secret of the spell -- she told everyone about it. Anya's deliberate interference caused Olaf to be summoned (why Olaf, if not for the connection to Anya?).

The rest of the post is unsupported speculation. There are infinitely many things that could go wrong. What if Xander had tackled Buffy and Anya had killed her? There's no point in singling out one character for criticism on this basis.

*If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law's against you, argue the facts. If both are against you, pound the table.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Pounding the table* in a post -- Malandanza, 23:36:03 10/26/02 Sat

"Your original post in this thread implicitly criticized Willow for the results in Selfless ("when will she stop 'helping'"). Several people have pointed out that the results could hardly have been better. This post merely changes the subject."

I think is is abundantly clear that my original post speaks of the results from Anya's perspective. I believe that Rufus is correct when she says that Anya was trying to commit suicide by cop. She had found herself in a situation where she could not endure what she had done, yet had no way to escape D'Hoffryn (and whatever is beneath the Hellmouth). Her object was oblivion. From Anya's perspective, bereft once again of her powers with the death of Halfrek on her conscience, the results could have been better. Anya would have preferred to have been killed by Buffy and has little enough reason to thank Willow for drawing D'Hoffryn's punishment down upon her.

My second post was an attempt to address Dariel concerns. It was not "changing the subject" but "carrying on a conversation."

"She offered a mild, entirely justified reproof when they discussed her as though she wasn't there. It wasn't her history to which she objected discussing, it was their present."

It does seem relevant to me that Willow was spared when she went on a rampage, yet Buffy does not consider first trying to save Anya and slaying her if, and only if, she cannot be saved. Buffy's actions when she fought Anya, as other posters have noted, indicated that she was more reluctant to slay Anya than her "I am the Law" comment to Xander would suggest.

Furthermore, Willow wasn't arguing, as you seem to suggest, that her case was not pertinent. She was upset because Buffy and Xander brought up the torture/murder. This was a moment for her to look contrite, not "reprove" her friends (who have, after all, forgiven her).

"We must have different definitions of "secret" and of "spells"."

You've taken my comment out of context. Secret from authority. In IOHEFY, B2, Triangle and the summer after Buffy's death, Giles was the authority and Willow kept the spells secret to avoid his censure. Giles vetoed the Magnus Tripod/Scapula plan (Willow almost got sucked into the floor, but luckily, Giles was there to save her). B2 is weaker -- but Willow having permission to cast a spell about which Giles was concerned under his supervision and under controlled circumstances is not the same as giving her permission to cast the spell while weakened and without an experienced magician at her side, helping with the spell. In Triangle, she waited until Giles was out of the country to begin playing with the stuff in the magic shop. Giles was deliberately excluded from the raise the dead plan by Willow. Back in Something Blue when Giles cautiously suggested that she refrain from casting spells while in such a despondent state of mind and Willow immediately rejected his advice. (And it wasn't Anya's deliberate interference that set the troll free to maim and destroy -- Anya was pestering Willow about the pilferage and spell casting, but it was Willow who allowed her attention to wander from the spell and set the chain of events in motion).

"The rest of the post is unsupported speculation. There are infinitely many things that could go wrong. What if Xander had tackled Buffy and Anya had killed her? There's no point in singling out one character for criticism on this basis."

This seems like a false analogy to me. Surely there is more sense in wondering if our favorite black magic addict should be summoning vengeance demons unsupervised so soon after her earlier bout with the black eyes than in wondering if Xander will mess things up. Should Xander have been there? No (at least not from Buffy's point of view -- from his, he probably thought he had to be there, hoping to save the world with his mouth again). He could have messed things up. But he has a much more limited ability to cause harm than does Willow.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Pounding the table* in a post -- Sophist, 11:01:28 10/27/02 Sun

I think is is abundantly clear that my original post speaks of the results from Anya's perspective.

Not to those who responded, apparently.

Anya would have preferred to have been killed by Buffy and has little enough reason to thank Willow for drawing D'Hoffryn's punishment down upon her.

If Anya can't recognize her own sole and exclusive culpability, and instead blames Willow (or, for that matter, Buffy or Xander), that would indeed be tragic for Anya's personal development.

My second post was an attempt to address Dariel concerns

Dariel's sole "concern" was about your comparison to Triangle. It's not at all clear how that relates to Willow's response in Selfless or to IOHEFY or B2.

Willow wasn't arguing, as you seem to suggest, that her case was not pertinent. She was upset because Buffy and Xander brought up the torture/murder. This was a moment for her to look contrite, not "reprove" her friends (who have, after all, forgiven her)

I suggested no such thing. Willow's response was only to the rudeness of discussing her as if she weren't present. It had nothing to do with the merits. She was not upset by the subject per se; she has acknowledged it several times with Giles, Buffy, Xander, and Anya.

I see no evidence that Buffy or Dawn has forgiven Willow. Xander probably has.

You've taken my comment out of context.

No, I responded to your exact words.

Secret from authority. In IOHEFY, B2, Triangle and the summer after Buffy's death, Giles was the authority and Willow kept the spells secret to avoid his censure.

No, Buffy was the authority in B2 and IOHEFY; she made the calls. By S5 (Triangle), Giles was "authority" over no one (except that he obviously had the right to demand payment for the materials Willow used for the spell). In any case, Willow did not conceal the spells in B2 or IOHEFY from Giles. To the contrary, she specifically told him about them in advance.

Giles vetoed the Magnus Tripod/Scapula plan

Giles did no such thing. He wished them good luck. In any case, I doubt that the Scapula can be meaningfully considered part of the "plan".

Willow having permission to cast a spell about which Giles was concerned under his supervision and under controlled circumstances is not the same as giving her permission to cast the spell while weakened and without an experienced magician at her side

Giles did not give her permission. Buffy did. And the reasons Buffy gave were just as compelling (in fact, more so) the second time Willow tried. Willow was right to do the spell, right considering both her knowledge at the time and the ultimate result. The short term disaster was solely Xander's fault.

And it wasn't Anya's deliberate interference that set the troll free to maim and destroy -- Anya was pestering Willow about the pilferage and spell casting, but it was Willow who allowed her attention to wander from the spell and set the chain of events in motion

Then why was it Olaf who appeared? The whole point of the episode was to make Willow and Anya equally at fault in order to emphasize Xander's refusal to choose between them.

He could have messed things up. But he has a much more limited ability to cause harm than does Willow.

Xander has been told many times that his presence at slayings is distracting to Buffy and that it's hard for her to do her job while having to protect others. It would hardly be surprising if Xander's persistent refusal to abide by her wishes someday resulted in exactly the harm she always warned about.

In any case, that was not the point; Xander was merely an example to show a larger issue: that there are infinite alternate universes. It is pointless to condemn characters for events that did not happen.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Some agreement, oddly enough -- Malandazna, 15:07:47 10/27/02 Sun

"If Anya can't recognize her own sole and exclusive culpability, and instead blames Willow (or, for that matter, Buffy or Xander), that would indeed be tragic for Anya's personal development."

Wow! I didn't think I'd find myself agreeing with anything you said in this Malandanza-is-Khrushchev thread, but I can't agree more with this quote. I think it applies to most of the BtVS characters, with the exception of Buffy who has taken too much responsibility rather than not enough. At the same time, I don't think it's inconsistent to think that while Anya might one day appreciate having lived to repent of and suffer for her sins, she's not going to be thanking Willow for the opportunity any time soon (if ever). To use an analogy, suppose I was a drug addict and you turned me into the police. After a time in jail, I recover and get my life back in order and recognize, intellectually, that you did me a favor. Yet, viscerally, I might think otherwise. I might not want to hang out with you and chat about old times and in particularly ungrateful moments I might even wonder if rehab would have been better than cold turkey in a jail cell.

As far as personal development goes, it seems to me that Anya's remorse for the frat boys is analogous to Spike's remorse after the attempted rape. This was the moment that she set foot on the path to personal responsibility.

"Dariel's sole "concern" was about your comparison to Triangle. It's not at all clear how that relates to Willow's response in Selfless or to IOHEFY or B2."

Rather than repeating myself in a louder font, let me quote Maquerade's site:

"Anya takes her responsibility for running the store seriously, but Willow doesn't seem big on responsibility these days. Stealing spell ingredients, carelessly performing fun but dangerous spells with the excuse that she's helping people? What's up with Willow?"

"I see no evidence that Buffy or Dawn has forgiven Willow."

I see no evidence that Dawn has forgiven Willow either (nor did I suggest otherwise) but I did see the scene at the end of STSP as indicative of Buffy having forgiven Willow. She apologized for thinking Willow might be responsible for the skinned victim and lent Willow her strength.

"No, Buffy was the authority in B2 and IOHEFY; she made the calls. By S5 (Triangle), Giles was "authority" over no one (except that he obviously had the right to demand payment for the materials Willow used for the spell)
"

I disagree here. I think Giles was certainly the authority back in Season Two and he continued to exert that authority well into Season Five. Even in Season Six, we see the vestiges of that authority with the Willow/Giles interplay.

"Then why was it Olaf who appeared? The whole point of the episode was to make Willow and Anya equally at fault in order to emphasize Xander's refusal to choose between them."

Anya turned Olaf into a troll -- someone else (witches) trapped him in the crystal. It is unclear how the crystal got to the Magic Box (an inordinate number of magical items seem to turn up within walking distance of the Summer's house) but it was Willow's spell that freed him. And my feeling was that Triangle about

1. providing closure between Xander and Willow
2. giving Willow and Anya a chance to bond
3. filling in the background for how Anya became a vengeance demon
4. Willow using magic for recreational purposes while pretending to help (see the Masq quotage above)

and not so much about Xander refusing to choose. Xander got an opportunity to stoically endure arm-breaking pain for refusing to pick his girlfriend over his best friend (or vice versa). He looked heroic, not ambivalent.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More agreement -- Sophist, 15:35:29 10/27/02 Sun

I think it applies to most of the BtVS characters, with the exception of Buffy who has taken too much responsibility rather than not enough.

I agree on both counts.

I did see the scene at the end of STSP as indicative of Buffy having forgiven Willow. She apologized for thinking Willow might be responsible for the skinned victim and lent Willow her strength.

I saw that as Buffy forgiving Willow for the invisibility spell. I don't think forgiveness has been extended to the events of Villains-Grave.

I think Giles was certainly the authority back in Season Two

In general, yes. I meant in the specific case of the resouling spell. Buffy clearly made that decision.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> On these topics -- HonorH, 16:43:58 10/27/02 Sun

First, I do think Buffy's forgiven Willow. There's nothing in anything she's said or done that leads me to believe she hasn't. Forgetting is something else altogether--it would be foolish of Buffy, as the Slayer, to forget what Willow is capable of. Furthermore, Willow all but states this--Buffy doesn't have the luxury of blind faith. So while Buffy has forgiven Willow and accepted her back, as the Slayer, she's also got to be aware that if Willow relapses, Buffy will have to stop her--no matter what.

In regards to the IOHEFY spell, remember that at that point Giles was somewhat obsessed with the idea that Jenny was the poltergeist to the point that he wasn't willing to listen to reasonable arguments otherwise. Therefore, Willow made the decision that if he wouldn't help them, they needed to do the exorcism on their own. She *was* making a decision independent of Giles, but only because he'd abdicated his responsibility.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Willow deserves everyone's thanks -- Sophist, 10:24:41 10/26/02 Sat

Willow's intervention here both saved Anya's life and made the world safe from not one but 2 vengeance demons. Hard to top that for good results.

I think Xander and Buffy are very grateful to Willow, Xander for Anya's life and Buffy for the elimination of 2 coldblooded killers, and hope she continues to help. Anya probably won't feel gratitude -- it's not really in character for her -- but she might at least grow up enough to admit that her own conduct was the real cause.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Very Harsh view of Anya -- alcibiades, 16:41:48 10/26/02 Sat

Anya probably won't feel gratitude -- it's not really in character for her -- but she might at least grow up enough to admit that her own conduct was the real cause.

I find that an incredibly harsh view of Anya.

We have just found out that underlying the vengeance demon mask and the human persona born from that, Anya's true personality was to be sweet and altruistic and to have a desire to help people -- she was an idealist.

Moreover, in the scene with Spike in Entropy, before the sex happened, when Anya tells Spike her greatest fear -- which is entirely consonant with what she can only admit to Xander at the end of this episode, that what if it is her -- her personality her self, everything about her that Xander was rejecting and by inference Olaf as well -- Spike really listens to her and reassures her on that point just as Xander does in Selfless that there is a loveable self at her heart -- Anya thanks Spike very, very sincerely for being the only one who has really listened to her -- something none of the Scoobs had taken the time to do EVER.

Furthermore, in STSP, the reason Anya is so willing to help the Scoobs find Willow is that she and Willow shared some honest quality time, even though a large part of that was really about Willow and not about Anya at all. Anya is grateful for the company and responds by helping rescue Willow.

I think Anya will be no less perceptive about the nature of the help that Willow gave her in Selfless.

So I am really not seeing from what basis you are forming your opinion that it is not in Anya's character to feel gratitude. In fact, I couldn't disagree more.

I think that Anya knows her conduct was the real cause of the events that transpired -- otherwise the fact that she offered herself as a sacrifice in return for the lives of 12 inane, nasty, creepy frat boys (who nevertheless should not have been murdered) makes no sense at all. It was her mess, she was prepared to clean it up. She accepted the consequences.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Perhaps so. -- Sophist, 21:38:11 10/26/02 Sat

As for gratitude, it would be hard to describe her receipt of the Magic Shop as showing gratitude to Giles. Nor can I think of other any other instance where she showed it (though I admit I haven't thought much about it; it's a gut reaction on my part).

As for sweet and altruistic (?!), I'd cite nearly every episode since The Wish as counter evidence. Unless you limit it to her behavior towards Xander, in which case she does qualify. Conspicuous examples of not-so-sweet-or-altruistic include Doppelgangerland; Fear Itself; GD2; the whole sequence with the Magic Box; her comments about capitalism, the French, and old people; her patronising attitude towards Dawn; etc.

Anya's behavior finally did begin to change after Hell's Bells. I still can't think of any show of gratitude by her, but she at least began to see the wrong she had done for 1100 years. At last, in Selfless, I believe we saw remorse. Until then, I saw her like I saw Spike -- she helped the SG because of her love for one of its members (and less than Spike helped), but that was the limit of her development. She, like Spike, is now beginning that metaphorical maturing. I hope you're right about the gratitude.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Now I get it... -- alcibiades, 06:01:27 10/27/02 Sun

Personally I think you have to look at Anya's character arc. The first 3 episodes you cite are Season 3 and 4, right after Anya was divested of her powers unwillingly -- so of course she hasn't had time to acclimate. Much like Spike is plotting with Adam -- at Adam's instigation against the Scooby's in Season 4 but not afterward

I think Anya progresses muchly.

As for her comments on capitalism (and republicanism) I always enjoyed those personally, since it seemed to me a funny way to "demonize" those beliefs by placing them in the mouth of an ex demon. Although I could never decide if ME bought into its spoof or not -- at least it was conscious of it however.

On capitalism, in light of Selfless , it is plain to me that Anya's opinions on that are an over-reaction to her original personality - thesis and antithesis -- from overly generous to not at all generous -- hopefully now we will get a healthy synthesis.

And Anya was helpful in The Gift. And she did try to help Dawn over the summer even though some of her comments to her were socially inept. Meanwhile, Anya wasn't the only one to treat Dawn bizarrely last year -- MN has admitted that one of the mistakes of Season 6 she owns up to is that they kept Dawn too young for too long -- it never made sense to me after the Gift where Dawn was ready to sacrifice herself on behalf of the world -- I personally think that Buffy was just as bizarre to Dawn last year as say Anya with all that weird over protectiveness as a way of keeping Dawn apart and occasional lapses of wanting to turn herself over to the police so Dawn could face life familyless. But I digress.

But from Anya's perspective, whenever she has been open with the world or trusted people, the return has been to hurt her, so she wants to hurt it back. Admittedly it is a young perspective, but it is one she has been stuck on for a long time -- the vengeance demon gig kept her in the pattern repeat mold for a long time. And even when she thought she had grown out of it with Xander, from her perspective what Xander did to her once again. He hurt her grievously. The audience knows better to some extent, but Xander has never admitted that to Anya -- never trusted her or loved her enough to tell her why his heart of darkness emerged at their wedding and caused him to walk away from her.

Of course, this problem has been repeating because she never addressed the root issues.

Yet, I think this different in perspective on Anya's worth may actually be pertinent in understanding the schism of opinion on whether Buffy's reaction to Anya was appropriate or not.

And it also seems to be reflected in the show. The opinion on how to solve the problem of Anya varies amongst the Scoobies based on what their individual relationship to Anya is like. Xander who loves Anya, argues against Buffy's declaration fiercely. Willow who hurt Anya in the finale of Season 6 both physically and in her livelihood when Anya was trying to help her, has just started actually having a relationship with Anya where she regards Anya as a person. Anya helps her again in STSP. Since Anya sees Willow when she is too frightened to come out to her friends in STSP because she feels guilty and worthless, Willow in return sees the guilt and conflict in Anya. So she is the one who saves Anya.

Buffy has no relationship with Anya except through Xander and when she recruits Anya to help. There is nothing personal there. So her perspective when Anya transgresses horribly is not personal as it was with Willow, it is the impersonal one of the Slayer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I've always seen Anya as a parallel to Spike -- Sophist, 10:22:53 10/27/02 Sun

Both were long time cold-blooded killers. Both would have preferred to remain that way. Anya lost her amulet, Spike gained a chip. These events resulted in forced socialization that originated in attraction to one member of the SG. Both struggled with the adaptation to humanity after so many years as a demon. I would say it's doubtful if either ever did a good deed or expressed a good thought except when motivated by love of the SG member (perhaps, in Spike's case a Summers woman). I never understood the free ride that Anya (and Xander) seemed to get compared to Spike and Buffy (a point Buffy made pretty clear in Selfless).

With some reservations, I accept the metaphor of vampirism as arrested development. I think Anya fits in that category. The challenge for her was the option of demonhood, which she made and has now renounced. The challenge for Spike was the same, except he didn't remove the chip, he re-gained his soul. Anya and Spike are now roughly in the same place. I don't yet know where they will go from here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> While I don't think Anya will be *thanking* Willow-- -- HonorH, 10:36:45 10/26/02 Sat

I think Willow did the right thing. She saw an alternative and took it. Ultimately, her actions did lead to Anya's release from D'Hoffryn's stable and the reviving of the slaughtered boys--just not in the way she probably hoped for. Willow *will* probably feel guilty for Anya getting hurt, but she's not to blame. Not really. Willow really had no reason to suspect D'Hoffryn would do things the way he did. And even if she had? It turned out for the best anyway.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah we have been missing each other... -- Rufus, 20:30:01 10/26/02 Sat

I also think may have missed the fact that I'm being a bit tongue in cheek when I mention good will and D'Hoffryn in the same sentence. D'Hoffryn doesn't need to be tipped off to what his "girls" are doing, he knows exactly what they are up to. But, he also sees Willow as an untapped resource that he would like to aquire and mentor. So, what made him go and have a look see on Anya? Willow? Threats by Willow....the potential of getting to turn Willow out as a vengeance demon? Or, did he do what any business minded type would to.....go and fix a problem? He didn't have to kill Halfrek but he did because Anya's lack of obedience called for an example to be made. His "girls" mean little to him, they can all be replaced at any time. Both girls were turning into a headache for him because their friendship alone wasn't in keeping with his idea of family. He wasn't there as a father trying to help his child he was there showing what he really was a manipulative creep who uses others to keep the business running......he should use Giles line as a motto...."Vengeance is never Sated".

[> Re: Fight between Anya and Buffy (spoiler for 7.5) -- Sang, 23:18:25 10/25/02 Fri

When I first saw that fight, I wondered why Anya could beat Buffy with sword. You know, Anya wasn't match for Willow who was evenly matched with Slayer. Obviously, Vengeance demon's physical power is far inferior to Slayer.

And I rewatched it and I found out very interesting thing.

Anya was invoking Slayer, trying to make Buffy mad at her. While Buffy was quietly taking blows from Anya... Then suddenly said 'I am sorry' and boom.

Right, Buffy was punishing herself! For killing her friend. She acts like heartless, but she is just hiding it. That's why she was letting Anya hit her. At one moment, she stood up and told her 'I am sorry.' Since that was the time she felt it was enough, it was time to kill her.

And Anya was ready to die. Buffy could finish her after the first stab, but she didn't. I don't think she forgot about Halfrek, I think she was hesitating, she may want to see the Anya she knew. But Anya was ready to die by Buffy's hand. She didn't show her real feeling until she faced D'Hoffryn.

It was not just Anya who returned to old gig. Buffy was out of killing monsters for a while. She was with Spike, she made kind of friend of Clem. She even entertained Anya's demon friends at wedding.

She decided to return to Slayer job, Killing demons not making friends of them. Like Anya did, Buffy is defining herself as a slayer, a law. She revealed to Xander that she was thinking of killing Anya before frat slaughter. Would it be related with Buffy's identity crisis as a Slayer?

[> [> Great thoughts! -- HonorH, 23:32:23 10/25/02 Fri

Right, Buffy was punishing herself! For killing her friend. She acts like heartless, but she is just hiding it. That's why she was letting Anya hit her. At one moment, she stood up and told her 'I am sorry.' Since that was the time she felt it was enough, it was time to kill her.

That's one angle I'd never thought of. Absolutely terrific reading of the fight.

As for the difference between this fight and the one with Willow, remember, too, that Willow was using magical power against Anya rather than just physical force--which was, perhaps, one of the reasons Willow refused to accompany Buffy. To fight Anya again would dredge up too much of that old darkness.

[> [> Re: Fight between Anya and Buffy (spoiler for 7.5) -- Rufus, 00:23:58 10/26/02 Sat

Anya was invoking Slayer, trying to make Buffy mad at her. While Buffy was quietly taking blows from Anya... Then suddenly said 'I am sorry' and boom.

The Buffy that was friends with Anya was the Buffy that Anya didn't want to see, she wanted out.....she saw no other way.....and if it meant provoking the Slayer in Buffy to do the job so be it. Notice Anya didn't try to kill any other people, which for sure would have put Buffy in Slayer mode.

[> [> [> Re: Fight between Anya and Buffy (spoiler for 7.5) -- gds, 11:04:38 10/26/02 Sat

What interested me in the Buffy/Anya confrontation was the Xander/Anya interaction. She stopped blaming him. She did use force and words to keep him from interfering with her suicide attempts, but it wasn't anger. In fact I think she took comfort in the fact that he cared enough to try to save her. I also noted that she finally acknowledged her guilt for her crimes when she told Xander that he couldn't help her. She was willing to commit suicide by slayer, but what she really looking for was her judgment day, which it seemed like D'Hoffryn was prepared to offer. Of course D'Hoffryn is not an "instrument of light" so in keeping with satanic lore he granted the wish in a twisted, unexpected and (to her at least) cruel way.

[> [> [> [> Re: Fight between Anya and Buffy (spoiler for 7.5) -- DEN, 11:52:19 10/26/02 Sat

The "suicide by Slayer" insight is brilliant. And IMO Buffy's approach borrows from a familiar plot line in another action genre: the western, where old friends now on opposite sided of the law are frequently pitted against each other. Buffy's behavior perfectly fits the standard for the hero: " I won't face you unless I have to; if I have to, I'll kill you."

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Fight between Anya and Buffy (spoiler for 7.5) -- sarahieo, 01:04:25 10/27/02 Sun

I missed this week's episode, and am trying to get things right in my mind here. Anya uses Buffy as a way out, and who else is killed off? Halfrek too? And what does D'Hoffryn have to do with this mess? Thanks to any who can help me out here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> a summary is available -- gds, 06:12:30 10/27/02 Sun

http://www.angelicslayer.com/tbcs/episodes/7s.html

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: a summary is available -- aliera, 06:16:59 10/27/02 Sun

You might want to take a look at Buffyworld also. As many have noted it's not a sub for the episode; but it's at least a place to start. :-)

[> [> One thing about the ep that stands out.... -- Rufus, 14:45:42 10/27/02 Sun

Look to the dialogue of the girl in the closet....she was humiliated by the boys and wished a wish that many would wish in their minds if in the same position....for the boys to feel her exact pain just once. Then Anya arrives and exacts the vengeance she assumed was in the girls heart, a twisted take no prisoners type of revenge....and she finds her vengeance no longer feels like it used to.

When Willow finds the girl in the closet she keeps saying

I take it back, I take it back

I see that it not only reflected her thoughts as the victim of Anya, but also reflected Anyas inner mantra that must have been going on from the moment she said "What have I done?". That's the proof that Anya had grown....before when she first met D'Hoffryn he said that she would only have to kill those who "deserved it".....Anya replied "they all deserve it". The Anya who faced Buffy wanted to be punished, and I think it may not have been only for the boys of "Selfless" but for her own failings as a person. Then D'Hoffryn arrives....Anya is given a choice and she mirrors what the girl in the closet says....I wanna take it back. I wanna undo what I did. It was then D'Hoffryn who could only think of striking out....he didn't want Anya to change, leave his sphere of influence...she pissed him off and in his mind betrayed all he stood for...and that is why he killed Halfreck. He also knew that something was coming that may take care of Anya. Odd that the two most influencial authority figures weren't up for the kill this time.

[> Re: Anya's Last Stand as a "Suicide by Cop" -- gds, 21:48:17 10/27/02 Sun

I have been waiting to see if anyone noticed that the similarities and differences between the Buffy/Anya confrontation and the Angel/Faith confrontation. Faith too was seeking suicide by cop. In the end she explicitly stated it by begging Angel to kill her. The big difference between Faith and Anya in this regard was that the reason Faith attacked AI was to provoke Angel into killing her. Most of Anya's death wish came after her attack.

Also note that Faith had someone to talk to that could understand her - Angel. Anya has Willow. In both cases the one who could understand them when they needed it the most were people with whom they originally shared hostility.

Of course what had turned Faith bad was very different from what had turned Anya bad. The duration of their bad spells were also very different.

ME's public announcements about Faith for this year offer the potential for an interesting Anya/Faith dynamic - assuming Anya lives that long.

[> great insight, rufus! but i have to raise 1 question -- anom, 22:31:35 10/27/02 Sun

Can suicide by Slayer work if the Slayer can't kill her? Do we know what Buffy would need to do to kill a vengeance demon? Maybe beheading--as someone said, that seems to works on just about everything (except Lorne's species). But we don't know, & Buffy certainly doesn't. Beheading might not have killed Gnarl--poking his eyes out was the best, maybe the only, way to do that. It might not have killed Anya either, but Anya didn't tell Buffy what would.. Suicide by proxy works better if the proxy knows how to kill you. So what does this say about Anya's intentions? Is she ambivalent?

[> [> Re: great insight, rufus! but i have to raise 1 question -- aliera, 04:59:56 10/28/02 Mon

I agree with rufus on this one. Based on Anya's line:

ANYA
"I'd forgotten how much a sword in the chest hurt. (pulls it out) Ahhh! You know better than that, Buffy. It takes alot more to kill a vengeance demon."

BUFFY
"Oh, I'm just getting started."

And then too her quickness to accept what she perceived as D'Hoffryn's bargain for undoing the deaths.

[> [> [> oh, i agree too! but... -- anom, 10:23:41 10/28/02 Mon

...there's still the question of what does kill a vengeance demon. Besides D'Hoffryn, that is.

[> [> [> [> absolutely, anom... -- aliera, 12:00:47 10/28/02 Mon

Current board | More October 2002