Previous September 2002 |
Crucifixion Imagery in Lessons 7.1 as we wait impatiently
-- Al Cibiades, 09:42:41 10/01/02 Tue
So why is crucifixion imagery -- the passion flower that Willow
summons then returns to the earth -- appropriate for Willow?
Is this a symbol of what is to come?
Cause I can't see that her suffering is either unmerited right
now or for the sake of mankind. It's about Willow dealing with
trying to be Willow again.
Have there been any other crucifixion symbols in 7.1?
[> Re: Crucifixion Imagery in Lessons 7.1 as we wait
impatiently -- Caroline, 10:38:53 10/01/02 Tue
Quick response - maybe Willow feels an internal need to atone?
I noticed that both Willow and Spike appear to be undergoing their
own form of a Passion experience - it's not that God has forsaken
them, they've forsaken their own conscience or souls in the past
and are now unable to deal with it. Spike 'should be caned'. Willow
wants to deny the darkWillow aspect of herself and be non-darkWillow.
We've even got Spike with the Christ-like wounds on his chest
(of course they're not inflicted by a Roman soldier but it does
parallel).
There are other sacrifices as well. Perhaps the girl killed in
Istanbul is also some type of sacrifice also. THe manifest spirits
were also a sacrifice - they could not be saved by Buffy. My speculation
skills are not great but I would say that this points to some
type of sacrifice required this season in dealing with the big
bad.
Gotta go, but will think about this more.
[> [> Episode 7.2 spoiler here! re: Crucifixion imagery
-- KKC, 13:22:31 10/01/02 Tue
Interesting observation about Spike and Willow going through Passion
experiences. I've just finished watching the second episode of
the season, and I won't give away the ending... But the last visual
is one of Spike hugging an ornate, six-foot tall cross to his
chest. Neat stuff, and it ties in with the ending of season 6
(with the allegorical carpenter saving the world with passive,
unconditional love and without violence or argument.)
-KKC, wondering if Willow's Judaism ends up being a factor in
her redemption or not. She is still technically jewish, yes?
[> [> Don't be impatient (spoilers for future episodes,
based on the teaser a the end of 7.1) -- Santa, 13:22:38
10/01/02 Tue
There should be alot of talk about Cruifixion poses. Did you see
the Spike pose flashed during the teaser for tonight?
[> Re: Crucifixion Imagery in Lessons 7.1 as we wait
impatiently -- luna, 18:30:13 10/01/02 Tue
Enough crucifixion in Beneath You, hmmm?
Will Angel's Hair Grow While He's Trapped In the Water?
It Should. -- B, 11:47:54 10/01/02 Tue
[> Vampire hair -- Apophis, 12:46:04 10/01/02
Tue
Previously, I didn't think that vampire hair grew. After Amends,
in which Angelus sported both longer hair and facial hair, I revised
my opinion. Obviously, Spike's hair grew somewhat during his "vacation,"
but not a whole lot. Nor did he have facial hair. This leads me
to conclude that vampire hair grows, but does so at a much slower
rate than in living mammals. Ergo, Angel's hair may not have grown
noticeably between seasons. Then again, I guess it all comes down
to whether or not the costuming department feels like dusting
off the extentions.
[> [> didnt I read somewhere? -- neaux, 13:22:47
10/01/02 Tue
or maybe I heard it on a commentary about really really old vampires.
They have long fingernails.
Or that is just the makeup departments' own whimsy for a particular
"look".
But if fingernails grow, I'd say that hair grows too.
[> [> [> Re: didnt I read somewhere? -- leslie, 14:02:55 10/01/02
Tue
In terms of the intersection of "folklore and reality"
(as Paul Barber subtitles _Vampires, Burial, and Death_), one
of the reasons that people thought the corpses they dug up were
vampires was that their hair (especially whiskers) and fingernails
appeared to have grown since death, though in actuality, this
was due to the contraction of the flesh as the result of decay
rather than the extension of the hair and nails. Likewise, the
"vampire's" smooth complexion was due to the exterior
skin sloughing off through decay and revealing a deeper layer
(the stuff all those alpha-hydroxy acids and other facial scrubs
and peels are supposed to reveal!)
[> [> [> [> Re: didnt I read somewhere?
-- meritaten, 23:03:15 10/01/02 Tue
Well, we learned early in season Four that demons' fingernails
grow after death (Buffy demon roommate).
Vampires heal from injuries.
Given the above, I don't think we can rule out the growth of hair.
[> [> Re: Vampire hair -- B, 13:49:26 10/01/02
Tue
Good theory, that it grows much more slowly.
From the previews it looks like his hair didn't grow. I hope it's
not just a slip up, but that there's an explanation.
[> [> Something I'd like to see -- ponygirl, 13:55:45
10/01/02 Tue
I want an episode featuring some sort of demonic barbershop. There'd
be video monitors so vamps could check out their new 'dos and
maybe some features for the more exotic demons, like scale polishing,
or clawed manicures, or horn sharpening, and lots of nancy-boy
hair gel.
[> [> [> Re: Something I'd like to see -- Xaverri,
15:35:34 10/01/02 Tue
Haha!! What a great idea! Now there's a product to market to vamps.
A mirror created by a tiny camera implanted in a video screen.
[> [> [> Re: Something I'd like to see -- Munkeegrl,
23:26:18 10/01/02 Tue
Did you know...
That Nancy-boy is the name of a real line of products now? Near
where I live in the Castro in San Francisco there is an entire
Nancy-boy shop (and yes they have hair gel). When I first saw
it I had a hard time stopping the laughter as I felt it was a
direct Angel reference.
Dawn, something precious to the world (S5 Spoilers)
-- meritaten, 16:20:43 10/01/02 Tue
I just watched a rerun from S5, the episode where the space demon
comes to earth to kill crazy people (Sorry, don't know the name
of the episode). Anyway, when Joyce was goofy as a result of her
tumor, she saw that Dawn was not really her daughter. When she
asked Buffy about this, she said that she got this realization
that Dawn wasn't her daughter, but was something very precious
to the world - something that had to be protected. Not only
did Joyce say that she loved Dawn as a daughter no matter her
origins, but she said that she sensed that Dawn was something
precious to the world. I'm hoping like anything that this
is expanded upon this season. I've always wondered why the monks
were so determined to save the key. I had forgotten about this
statement by Joyce, which is another clue to the importance of
the key. I'd really like to see this question resolved.
[> May I just say she rocks lately? (7.2 spoilers)
-- HonorH, 01:13:16 10/02/02 Wed
Agree with you, meritaten, and the UPN promos specifically mention
her Key-ness. Now, UPN and ME don't always agree, but I'm hoping
ME had a hand in the promo, because I do think they need to get
back to the Key and explain just *why* the monks felt such a strong
need to see to it that it wasn't destroyed.
And isn't my little Dawnie growing up nicely? She was all mature
and leadershippy in the first ep, and tonight, with a smaller
role, she just rocked. She was there to comfort Buffy out of that
nightmare/Slayer dream, she very calmly confronted Buffy on the
Spike front, and Scary!Dawn with Spike? Oooh, I was happy! Yes!
*That's* how you deal with the guy who tried to rape your sister!
I need to be in bed, but I'm so jazzed tonight, I don't think
I'll sleep. Happy-loolah!
[> [> Let's play 'hit the Spike' (again) -- CaptainPugwash,
03:16:00 10/02/02 Wed
Woohoo.. let's all be mean to Spike; it doesn't matter that he
has got his soul back; once an attempted rapist, always an attempted
rapist etc.
If I can forgive Angel (as Angelus) for killing my favourite character
(Jenny) and etc. (countless murders), then surely people can forgive
Spike (as 'Spikelus') for attempting to rape their favourite character
and etc. (countless murders). I don't always buy the whole ex-vamps
shouldn't be held accountable for their vamp crimes thing, but
accepting that characters have to come to terms with things by
themselves (and not be accountable to some higher/audience 'power')
is one of BtVS' first principles (Buffy, Willow, Giles, Angel,
Faith [ok, so she is locked up], and now Spike have all had to
do it [or are doing it]; Anya tried to do it, and Xander should
have been kicked off his pedestal a long time ago)
Thank goodness that Buffy has the guts to remind people (*cough*
I-raised-a-demon-that-killed-someone Xander *cough*) that whatever
occurs between her and Spike is none of their business. With any
luck, she will give Dawn a good talking to as well...
[> [> [> Re: Let's play 'hit the Spike' (again)
-- Finn Mac Cool, 04:29:23 10/02/02 Wed
Keep one thing in mind though: at that point, none of them knew
that Spike had gotten his soul back, so I found it a perfectly
reasonable attitude. I don't think Buffy was really like "it's
none of your business", I think it was more of "he's
not a threat, and we always knew he was evil, anyway".
[> [> [> At least Xander's being consistent
-- Scroll, 06:52:46 10/02/02 Wed
I don't think Dawn's threat to Spike was inappropriate or "mean".
Spike did try to rape Buffy, and Dawn was simply making it clear
that if he ever tried to hurt Buffy again, Dawn would make him
pay. Nobody hit Spike (until he hit Anya), nobody pushed him around
or bullied him. While I think forgiveness for Spike can eventually
be found, I don't think it's wrong for Buffy, Dawn, and Xander
to be *extremely* cautious and angry with him now.
And Angel wasn't exactly welcomed back with open arms, either.
Buffy forgave him and Willow accepted him back after a while (and
after he saved her life), but Giles, Xander, and Cordelia pretty
much didn't trust him or like him at all. I don't know if Giles
has ever totally forgiven Angel for Jenny's murder (even though
they still collaborate occasionally).
Angel knows and accepts that he may never be forgiven for the
evil he has committed. He taught Faith to understand this, and
this is something Giles tries to explain to Willow. So whether
or not Dawn decides to forgive Spike for trying to rape her sister,
is really Dawn's business. Hopefully she will, because I think
holding anger against Spike will damage *Dawn* and I don't want
that.
[> [> [> [> Amen. -- HonorH, 07:43:46
10/02/02 Wed
Yes, Spike was Dawn's friend. Yes, he saved her life. Yes, what's
between him and Buffy is his and Buffy's business. But that doesn't
mean Dawn's uninvolved. This is her sister; Dawn's got a right
to be protective, even if Buffy's the Slayer. There's more than
one way to hurt a person.
And yes, I hope Dawn does eventually forgive Spike. It'd be just
too Dawnie Sue for her to welcome him with open arms.
[> [> [> [> [> Dawn, Spike, Anya, Spoilers
7.2 -- fresne, 09:56:54 10/02/02 Wed
Okay, first of all I deeply resent that my work life is heating
up (time for quarterlies) just when I have new Buffy to masticate.
It's deeply unfair.
Also, this really does need to be the last season because if this
show gets any better I will expire from sheer poetic pleasure.
Anyway, I really liked Dawn's reaction to Spike. While I'm inclined
to see the whole SR, S6 Gordian knot thing as this hugely complex
tangle, that isn't necessarily how I want Buffy's little sister
to perceive it.
That moment was very much Dawn taking her power and restating
her loyalties. Especially nice since she was a bit peeved with
Buffy just then.
Spike, as the vampire, is stronger and faster than Dawn. However,
everything is vulnerable. Although, as it happens Spike is more
vulnerable than Dawn knows.
So, in this episode, Anya the demon. Did anyone else get a thrill
when she took on demon face and told Spike that she was going
to kick his ass? Not because I wanted to see his ass kicked, but
rather because it was such a strong statement of empowerment from
a character that has been pushed willy nilly thus far.
D'Hoffran, Hallie and Xander all push. Anya follows along. Her
choices are so often based on other people's behavior/choices/arguments.
Thus I agree and disagree with Xander's whole, "Miss Havisham
the non-wedding is not an excuse for vengeance" comment.
Disagree because, ahem, Xander honey, love ya, but you were secretly
engaged this time last year. First deal with serious relationship
issues, then seek to date. Agree because Anya needs to take agency
for choices. She was doing so well in the finale. It would seem
that now is her time to figure out her place in the world.
Because she did have the seeming of it all. Seeming. Wishing.
Infinite power from feeling infinitely powerless. A weeping woman
in a darkness with someone who has known her for a 1000 year.
Why not be what she once was? As Anya said, those were good times.
So, after the episode, my housemate and I discussed how it would
be nice if rather than rejecting being a demon (because I agree
with Anya, Xander never did understand her as 1000+ year old demon),
if Anya truly became a justice demon. Not sure what that means.
Perhaps a leavening force. Perhaps giving power or understanding
to the powerless. Help to those who cry for it.
God this episode rocked.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Anya and her future,
Spoilers 7.2 -- Scroll, 10:23:11 10/02/02 Wed
I'm with you on Anya the Justice Demon. Not simply because I love
her totally cool powers. But I think that she should have the
chance to use her powers for good, and I think she could be useful
as a "higher being"-type that empowers the helpless.
Anya actually has a genuine understanding of power and knows her
limits. While I agree with Xander that her "left at the altar"
excuse isn't really going to work much longer, I do feel for Anya
because she didn't just lose the love of her life, she lost her
self-esteem, her friends, her certainty that she had a place in
the world. I think it's time for Anya to reclaim her self-respect
-- much like Willow needs to do.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The source of
Anya's demonic powers isn't really in the "justice"
business (7.2 spoilers) -- cjl, 10:44:53 10/02/02 Wed
I think I've made the point a number of times that, despite Anya
and Hallie's self-characterization as vengeance or justice demons,
true vengeance or justice has little to do with D'Hoffryn's little
operation.
Although I've sarcastically referred to D'Hoffryn a number of
times as "pimp daddy," I'm not really being fair to
the big guy. He's more of a middle man, an small-time demonic
entrepreneur with one big client--and he needs to keep the client
happy or he's out of business. The demons of the Lower Orders
(whoever they are) contracted Pimp Daddy D to sow chaos and misery
amongst humans, specifically through the instrument of revenge.
IMO, these demons derive either an odd, aesthetic pleasure or
actual physical pleasure (like Willow's magic weed) from a particularly
juicy, havoc-creating wish. (Cordy's wish must have kept them
high as a kite for weeks.)
If Anya keeps taking back wishes, or tries doing the "justice"
thing for real, D'Hoffryn's clients don't get their "vengeance
rush" and they'll be unhappy. And if they're unhappy, D'Hoffryn
will be unhappy. And if D'Hoffryn's unhappy, Anya could be a pretty
brunette stain on Sunnydale's streets before you know it.
So Anya's options are far more limited than you think. That's
what makes her situation this season so poignant; she looks and
sounds powerful in "Beneath You," but in many ways,
she's actually LESS powerful than she's ever been. The poor kid's
painted herself into a corner, and I'm wondering how--or if--she
can get out.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Anya should
switch teams, join Cordy w/ the PTB! -- Scroll, 11:07:19
10/02/02 Wed
wow -- lynxx, 18:06:33 10/01/02 Tue
i am speechless.
[> You can say that again! Buffy is BACK! NOW do y'all
see how season six sucked? -- Rochefort, 18:13:15 10/01/02
Tue
[> [> No. But I will say this episode was great
-- Artemis, 19:19:49 10/01/02 Tue
[> [> I would if season six didn't set all of this
up... thank ME for S6 -- JBone, 20:11:40 10/01/02 Tue
[> [> [> I agree...Never has the necessity of Season
6 been more evident. -- Rob, 21:22:50 10/01/02 Tue
Huge Season Six fan as I am notwithstanding, I will admit that,
so far, this season is blowing it out of the water (except for
OMWF and TR)...but every single great thing this season has come
about from plot elements that occurred last season. I think it
is very clear now why last year had to happen the way it did.
Now, we get all the fun ramificationiness that's occurring now!
Rob
[> [> [> [> execution execution execution
-- Rochefort, 23:24:19 10/01/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> just whose execution are you
calling for? @>) -- anom, 11:12:20 10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Agreed. Two *amazing* eps so far.
-- HonorH, 00:00:36 10/02/02 Wed
I'm with you, Rob--I thought S6 was misunderstood genius. However,
if this season keeps this up . . . well, I might not survive!
[> [> [> [> Yes, but ... -- vh, 06:05:30
10/02/02 Wed
The pieces of 6 still don't fit together quite right. Needed more
skillful writing, and I just expect that level from this team.
[> [> [> Yes, they learned from last year's lousiness
and laziness. Thank you, Joss!;) -- mundusmundi, 05:17:13
10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Hey, I was supposed to say that!
-- Underworld, mm's evil alter-ego, with gravest apologies, 05:26:13
10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Echoing mundus -- Cactus Watcher,
06:53:35 10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> From the battlements I pour boiling
oil upon the S6 detractors! Burn baby! -- ponygoyle rattling
my taloned wings, 07:51:29 10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> You're forgetting one of Whedon's
main rules: -- Arethusa, 09:34:16 10/02/02 Wed
Things change. And many people like the changes ME made, because
only through going into the dark part of their souls can the characters
really grow and develop. Would you prefer the vacuity and shallowness
of, say, Friends, where people age but never really change, and
character flaws exist only to trigger the laugh track? What you
call lousiness is ground-breaking exploration of character, and
what you call laziness is-I don't know, because I can't imagine
where that comes from. They only complaint I really have about
Season 6 is how subtlety was sometimes replaced by a whack upside
the head with an anvil, as ToWP might say.
Spike's stunning metamorphisis only could come about after the
events of last year. Already we are raving about Season 7, and
the two episodes we've seen are just starting to deal with the
baggage accumulated last year. That scene in the bar, where the
Scoobies' sexual relationships were outlined, was hilarious and
awkward and a little sad-and an off-shoot of the tangled mess
they got themselves into last year. As always, last year should
be seen in the context of the entire series. Even if the S6 detractors
don't like it now, they might change their minds later, and have
to pick crow feathers out of their teeth. And I'll say, "I
told you so!"
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Arethusa Well Said and
I AgreeTotally Thanks. -- Angelina, 13:57:29 10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> I agree, except for your Friends
comment. I'd say Chandler has grown a great deal from his origin.
-- Finn Mac Cool, 14:07:37 10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> Oooh, glad you brought that
up. O/T re Friends -- Arethusa, 16:03:01 10/02/02 Wed
Maybe you can explain a little about Chandler's development, since
I missed many episodes. What brought about Chandler's new maturity?
I haven't seen any events that would change him so fundamentally,
from the insecure wisecracking "little boy" as Anya
would say to a mature man ready for committment and raising a
family. He was one messed-up little puppy, what with the anger
and defense mechanisms and daddy issues. It's like sleeping with
Monica gave him a soul.
[> [> No. Tonight's ep rocked, but Season 6 set it
up. -- HonorH, 23:55:42 10/01/02 Tue
[> [> Pleas stop whining about season 6. Season 7
wouldn't exist without it -- shadowkat, 07:14:37 10/02/02
Wed
I also loved Season 6. I prefered it to Season 1 and Season 4.
We all have our favorite seasons. You will never change my mind
and have made your point to the extent it is now annoying. Please
stop whining. Season 7 builds on Season 6 and Season 5 and Season
4. It would be like saying can
you all see how the first five chapters of this book sucked?
When many of us, are going wow look where they led me too! This
is amazing!! I'm so glad they went there.
So Stop whining already.
It makes me not want to read your posts. And you seem to have
some interesting ideas, that I'd hate to miss.
[> [> [> S.6 wounded me deeply... but maybe I can
try getting counseling or something and work it out there.
-- Rochefort, 11:12:09 10/02/02 Wed
[> All I can say about "Beneath You" is...WHOA!
(NT) -- Joie (d V), 18:18:36 10/01/02 Tue
[> Couldn't write till now I was so completely blown
away -- luna, 18:27:48 10/01/02 Tue
[> [> Re: Couldn't write till now I was so completely
blown away -- Dee, 18:32:59 10/01/02 Tue
Could James Marsters get any better? What an incredible actor
he is! Wow is all I can say about the episode!
[> What the f***.... -- Doriander, 19:14:54 10/01/02
Tue
happened to "Buffy the Guidance Counselor"? I was so
pumped for that!
Once again, UPN is sooo off the mark with its promos, and this
once, I'm enormously thankful.
[> [> Not off the mark. You need to think about it
for a little while. -- OnM, 22:31:00 10/01/02 Tue
The promo was misleading, yes, but not quite in the way I think
you're thinking.
Ponder what happened, think 'Buffy the Guidance Counselor' in
a slightly more thematically twisted fashion and you may reconsider
the 'off the mark' bit.
Oh, the pictoral parts of the promo were misleading! What
else is new?
;-)
[> [> [> Re: Not off the mark. You need to think
about it for a little while. -- meritaten, 22:37:18 10/01/02
Tue
Do you REALLY think UPN thought that hard about the episode?
I'm also a Trekkie. UPN used to have the most misleading promos
for Voyager. I never believe anything in the promos.
[> That was lovely! -- Dariel, 20:50:46 10/01/02
Tue
And I was ready to stake Spike myself before that last scene!
[> I was swearing! -- HonorH, 23:59:15 10/01/02
Tue
I don't swear. Almost never. But my subject line in my latest
missive to my pen pal was one big "SH*T!!!!!!!" I couldn't
say anything else. The ep left me that rattled.
Of course, my reaction also might have had something to do with
the fact that the tape cut off *just* at the end of the episode
and I wasn't sure if I'd missed something. Luckily, I only missed
the "Grr, argh."
[> Shpadoinkle! (so many 7.2 spoilers! so little time!)
-- ponygirl, 06:41:05 10/02/02 Wed
Still just reeling from last night! And I wasn't able to tape
it so I'll have to wait a few days to really get into the underside
of this ep. Of the top of my head, currently stuck to the ceiling
after exploding last night:
Principal Wood's comments to Buffy about authority, there's something
significant there.
The wonderful way that the episode SEEMED to be about exes and
getting over them, but really had so much going on underneath.
Just as Buffy may have thought for a time that the "from
beneath it devours" line could refer to Worm Guy, but it
turned out to be so much bigger, deeper and darker. Just like
all the relationships on the show.
Anya's eagerness in finding out how Spike got his soul. Does she
want one for herself?
Can't help feeling that every single line Spike spoke was significant,
from his comments on scary Dawn, to, of course, the whole final
scene. The way he kept going back between talking about Buffy
to talking about God. The final image of Spike on the cross. I
can't help but feel that it's not just about forgiveness for the
attempted rape, not just forgiveness for his past crimes. There's
something deeper here, something I can't yet grasp.
And most importantly: Anya, loved the hair. Spike, I so miss the
shaggy, here's hoping further insanity leads to a quick grow out.
Is it next week yet??
Okay, just to recap... (Thoughts and spoilers on tonights
episode) -- Yusuke Urameshi, 18:31:01 10/01/02 Tue
Right, just wanna make sure I got understood what we saw tonight:
1.) William is back in control, but is severly unstable right
now. He is trying to reconcile his former life's memories (that
of a foppish, lovesick poet) with what he was for over a century,
which is causing him to be unbalanced.
2.) Cleaned up Spike wasn't really Spike back in control, but
rather William trying to be Spike, much like Angel did when he
tried to be Angelus for awhile back in China. He slipped however,
because he wasn't ready to be exposed as being souled (punching
Anya) and for seriously hurting an a human.
Great episode all around. Took me awhile to understand what was
going on with Spike, but when I did it made it that much more
enjoyable. It should be interesting to see how the Scooby Gang
deals with him now. Its sort of the reverse of Angel; they are
meeting the man, after they have known the monster.
Speaking of Angel, Spike should have probably sought a few tips
out about the whole resouling thing ;). Angel makes it look easy
now (well, maybe not easy), but after he was first cursed, he
was exactly like Spike, a human with a demon body and memories
of evil deeds, trying to figure out who and what he is now. We
have only seen glimpses of this from Angel. I look forward to
see the work in progress Spike is becoming
[> More Thoughts and spoilers on tonights episode...
-- ZachsMind, 19:26:20 10/01/02 Tue
1. Frankfurt Germany? Nice. Very "Run Lola Run"esque.
Those "Slayers In Training" that the robed ones are
cutting up for fishbait? They're not Slayers. They're KEYS. The
knives they're using are reminiscient of the one that demon cut
Dawn with in the S5 finale.
BUFFY: "There was a girl."
DAWN: "That would be me."
2. "From Beneath You It Devours." The worm in this episode
was but a harbinger metaphorically, for the Hellmouth. It had
teeth. Willow's been saying that now she's seen the teeth of the
Hellmouth.
3. Now that we've seen all the scenes that were made specifically
in England featuring ASH & Hannigan, I can honestly say I
am very disappointed. Yes the scenery is beautiful, but the way
it was used, they could have done those scenes on a Hollywood
set and we would not have known the difference.
4. Marsters is going for the Emmys next year isn't he? Very nice.
I saw shades of the old season two Spike, and entirely new slices
of William the Bloody that we'd never seen before. He's really
strutting his stuff, from an acting standpoint. I'm impressed.
5. Strange how Xander has kinda taken the place of Buffy's mom
in the commuting department.
6. "Bastinade." There's a clue. Buffy said it was used
in Turkish prisons. I think the new principal is a Knight of Byzantium
whose undercover. Only a Knight of Byzantium would find that humorous.
7. Willow's coming back but Giles is not? Not very reassuring.
Giles is only going to be in ten episodes this season, by all
spoilery accounts I've read. It's what's in ASH's contract. Guess
they're gonna save him for the end of the season.
[> [> Re: More Thoughts and spoilers on tonights episode...
-- mundusmundi, 20:03:30 10/01/02 Tue
Frankfurt Germany? Nice. Very "Run Lola Run"esque.
I took it as a homage/spoof of Alias, aptly timed considering
the recent NY Times piece on Joss where JJ Abrams, Alias's
creator, essentially calls Whedon his hero.
Great episode all the way around.
[> [> [> Re: More Thoughts and spoilers on tonights
episode... (Run, Lola, Run spoilers) -- TRM, 22:50:56 10/01/02
Tue
Nah... I'd have to agree with Run, Lola, Run because it
was set in Germany (Alias was supposed to have adopted
stylistically from the movie anyway). But I suppose we'll know
for sure if, next week, they show the Frankfurt Key/Slayer/Girl
go through the whole run scene again but timed slightly differently
so she doesn't get killed.
[> [> [> Re: More Thoughts and spoilers on tonights
episode... -- vh, 06:09:46 10/02/02 Wed
Actually, I'd agree with you, Alias being more topical.
[> [> [> Re: More Thoughts and spoilers on tonights
episode... -- CW, 07:04:08 10/02/02 Wed
Yeah, one look at that silly wig and I'm thinking Alias.
[> [> SPOILER FOR ASH's CONTRACT ABOVE (nt) --
V, 21:10:24 10/01/02 Tue
[> [> Re: More Thoughts and spoilers on tonights episode...
-- Quentin Collins, 21:24:28 10/01/02 Tue
Interesting thoughts, ZachsMind. However, I must disagree with
a couple of your points.
I still feel that the the women at the beginning of the first
two episodes are more likely slayers-in-training than keys. For
one thing, they seemed too slayer-like. The woman in "Lessons"
had Slayer-like instincts but her fighting skills were not well
honed. The woman in "Beneath You" really seemed to have
the Slayer thing going on. Or maybe somebody is killing CIA or
SD-6 operatives? No, maybe not. But I think that the key is something
unique -- it was always "the key" and never "a
key". If there were many of them hanging around, Glory likely
would have gotten one quite easily. And killing them without any
apparent ritual (like bleeding them) seems to indicate that their
deaths were the objective and nothing more.
I found the "bastinade" reference quite funny, but I
am not a Knight of Byzantium (just an s&m afficianado). But
seriously, Robin Wood seems too hip and modern to be involved
with those "roleplaying rejects". His manner is easygoing
and confident rather than stilted and he lacks the unfashionable
head tat. The fact that he is a vegetarian also seems to me to
be more of a potential clue than an amusing reference to the Doublemeat
Palace's food ingredients.
The impression that I got was that the Willow/Giles scenes were
not shot on location for effect. I seem to remember hearing something
about them doing that to more easily fit the appearances into
ASH's schedule. Even though the sound and video quality of the
scenes were a bit substandard, I very much prefer them to having
no Giles at all.
[> [> [> Re: More Thoughts and spoilers on tonights
episode... -- aliera, 05:30:24 10/02/02 Wed
Re: Potential slayers, I have that take also and a lovely sense
of anticipation.
Re: bastinade...I found the line very odd and interesting, can't
wait for transcripts to come out. Easier for me to pick things
out in that format but that line seemed to stick out on a couple
of levels. And I guess it's just me but I found Sara's delivery
caught my attention in this scene...anyone else? Probably just
me.
Re: Robin Wood/veg, what type of clue are you thinking?...the
one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is The Green Man...probably
way off-base because my orientation tends to be more myth-like
but it was the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw the
name(see http://mythinglinks.org/home.html for a good jump off
point and links to essays and pages on this if anyone's interested.)
This man bears watching in more ways than one.
And Giles, well absolutely. There's also something odd from the
flower reference in Lessons...flora lua-uyala...I can't track
it down in Paraguay or anywhere else as an actual flower name,
although I did only a light search yesterday from work...many
other references to lua though in Hawaii, Kenya, and oriental
languages. And Ulaya is a river mentioned in Innana's story and
the Gilgamesh's lament and as a city phone code in the same directory
as Istanbul and a language?. Again probably stretching (delish
to do this again after the summer hiatus; but, probably more than
you all wanted to know, right? Oh well, I'm a tad obsessed!) and
the reference is odd.
After two eps, I am just very very contented...all I was looking
for and more!
[> [> Great catch, Zach! -- HonorH, 00:05:22
10/02/02 Wed
BUFFY: "There was a girl."
DAWN: "That would be me."
I hadn't even thought of this. I don't think I agree with you
on the Key business--I'm pretty sure Dawn is unique, or Glory
would have been chasing *a* Key rather than *the* Key--but ME
dialogue almost always has double meaning. Dawn was the one who
woke Buffy, and ostensibly, that's why she said what she did.
However, I'm wondering just how this might play out in the metanarration.
"That would be me." Will it be you, Dawn?
[> [> [> Re: Great catch, Zach! (Speculations)
-- meritaten, 00:19:11 10/02/02 Wed
I suspect they will be coming for Dawn. That will be how the robed-men-killing-girls
sub-plot meets Sunnydale. Just my speculations.
[> [> Even funnier still (spoils) -- neaux, 04:33:38
10/02/02 Wed
The reference to Run Lola Run was obvious..
but I couldnt help think that ME was spoofing the show "Alias"
and showing what they ultimately thought of that show. (realize
this was just an interpretation and I wish not to offend any Alias
fans)
[> [> [> Re: Even funnier still (spoils) --
vh, 06:27:20 10/02/02 Wed
"showing what they ultimately thought of that show"?
I just thought it was a great send-up. If anything, I thought
the tone was friendly. But then AtS is up against Alias this season
(Drat the WB! Just when the X-Files departed and I didn't have
2 things on at the same time!) ... Just MHO.
research... -- Kim,
18:38:40 10/01/02 Tue
hi guys i'm just doing some research for a thesis and was wondering
if some of you guys could help me out. i'm looking at television
audiences and how they view, with special reference to 'cult'
show such as buffy. if anyone could help me out by answering these
questions either here on the message board, or by email to me
at kimacmi@hotmail.com, ta!
How do you generally watch a show of buffy? (eg, by yourself,
with friends at home, at a bar, etc.)
what sort of things do you do while watching? (eg discuss, stay
silent, screem at anyone who talks etc)
what started your buffy obsession
what is it that draws you to the show
why is watching buffy such an important part of your life...
what other 'buffy' related things do you do in your life (apart
from watching) to carry out your buffy interest?
thanks for your time.
[> Re: research... -- meritaten, 22:33:04 10/01/02
Tue
How do you generally watch a show of Buffy? (eg, by yourself,
with friends at home, at a bar, etc.)
Usually by myself, but sometimes with friends. When I lived in
the same time zone as my cousin, another fan, we would chat online
during the show.
what sort of things do you do while watching? (eg. discuss,
stay silent, scream at anyone who talks etc)
I watch intently. Chatting online worked, because we could ìspeakî
or be silent as suited us ñ no voices drowning out important
lines. When watching with friends, talking is usually limited
to commercials. In fact, the bulk of the online chatting was during
commercials.
what started your buffy obsession
My cousin, another fan, kept talking about the show CONSTANTLY.
I finally watched it so I could carry on a conversation with her.
I thought Iíd hate it, but I figured Iíd give it
(and my cousin) a chance. Very glad I did.
what is it that draws you to the show
Terrific mix of drama, comedy, character development, plot twists,
multi-layered storylines, ....
why is watching buffy such an important part of your life...
Why do people read literature?
It has an engaging storyline, but is also saying something much
deeper.
what other 'Buffy' related things do you do in your life (apart
from watching) to carry out your Buffy interest?
I visit this forum a lot. I have Buffy wallpaper and screensavers
on my computer. I talk about it with friends. Örewatch videos
and DVDs.
[> Re: research... -- Rochefort, 23:43:20 10/01/02
Tue
grad student, so glad to help.
How do you generally watch a show of buffy? (eg, by yourself,
with friends at home, at a bar, etc.)
With friends when we can get together and we cheer like for a
hockey game. By myself otherwise. Different pleasure because by
myself I rewind every good scene and watch it eight times until
I'M ready to move on.
what sort of things do you do while watching? (eg discuss, stay
silent, screem at anyone who talks etc)
Discuss. Laugh. Scream (at the screen). Explain fine plot points
to any new comers. We all know that we're all taping it individually
for later watching anyway, so the first time is a community moment.
When I'm watching it alone though? I pause at the good scenes
and I dance.
what started your buffy obsession
I guess this strikes to the "cult" status or something.
At my university I was always having people's whose taste I respected
telling me I should check it out. I watched it curiously one time.
Casually the next few times. And got shocked by the quality and
execution. How fun to watch a silly vampire show that's so well
crafted! Then, yes, the community aspect becomes part of the fun.
We all talk afterwards, on e-mail or in person about the whole
thing and all the characters and argue and rave.
what is it that draws you to the show
The vampire fantasy, partly. As a kid, I hated books that had
only real things in them. What was the point of reading a book
if it was just like life? Then i grew up and become a ph.d. student
and you READ things that have people's names like "Karl Marx"
or something instead of "d'Artagnan" or what not. But
then it's like coming back to my childhood enjoyment, back from
"Karl" to "Buffy" and "Xander" and
"Willow" and vampires. It's like watching after school
cartoons but for grown ups. And when I say for grown-ups I mean
the psychology and emotion are handled in a profound fashion.
Buffy's season five suicidal depression and escape, for instance.
The episode where Tara's family visits especially hooked me. It
was real abusive patriarchal family dynamics played out in a demon
story. I was totally impressed.
why is watching buffy such an important part of your life...
escape. just like books were when I was a kid, but aren't any
more. A shared escape with my friends who are all in their early
and mid-twenties which makes it doubly fun. I forget where I am
for an hour because while the genre is escapist, the themes are
serious enough for my grownup mind. I can identify and think about
my own problems in an escape sort of way. I sound like a cereal
commercial now.
what other 'buffy' related things do you do in your life (apart
from watching) to carry out your buffy interest?
I check this board occasionally. Only this board though, none
others. Quote lines, make reference to it amongst other afficianados.
I once wrote lyrics to a Billy Joel song about Buffy. And I wrote
a bunch of cereal commercials featuring Buffy characters. And
I (heh heh) in two separate semesters had my students seriously
analyze Buffy from a feminist perspective. Was this true gender
transgression, true emerging resistance in a Marxist sense, or
was this only PLAY at emerging resistance. Also, sometimes I jump
around the house and fight imaginary vampires.
Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath You) -- Apophis, 19:16:20
10/01/02 Tue
1) Was Nancy the same Nancy from the alternate universe in The
Wish? If I remember correctly, they look kind of alike.
2) I liked the religious undertones at the end. I wonder whether
Spike was talking about God or the shapeshifter when he referred
to "he" (or was it "him?" I have no shortterm
memory).
3) It seemed to me that Spike and William were arguing in the
alley. I also thought that some of Spike's ramblings were spoken
in a higher-class of English accent, but maybe that's just my
imagination.
4) I liked scaryDawn.
5) I liked Anya's hair.
6) I was terrified that tonight would lead to the resurrection
of Spuffy. Thankfully, it still lies cold in its grave.
7) Xander just can't win with the ladies.
[> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath You) -- Artemis,
19:29:06 10/01/02 Tue
I thought Spike was talking about both. He talks about "Him",
which I took for God and "It, beneath you", which I
took for The Evil. I got the impression that there is a struggle
for his soul. This being intertwined with all the other voices
from past victims. It's enough to drive you crazy. JHMO
[> [> Him/It -- darvangi, 19:50:52 10/01/02
Tue
I thought, when I first saw it, that 'Him' was God and 'It' was
whatever the shapeshifting evil presence was in last week's episode.
And that scared me, because they've never really brought God into
the mythology of the show and I didn't think it would be a good
idea to do so now.
But now I'm convinced that 'Him' was refering to William and 'It'
was the demon/vampire inside, and that the two are fighting each
other. And the thing with him laying against the cross and burning
was an attempt to purge himself of the inner struggle - but it's
not going to be that easy. I'm very interested in how this is
going to work out.
[> [> [> Re: Him/It -- AgnosticSorcerer, 20:15:20
10/01/02 Tue
Perhaps "him" and "it" are referring to the
same entity. A correction of sorts.
[> [> [> Re: Him/It -- Dariel, 20:28:03
10/01/02 Tue
I think the Him he referred to was God. Spike is, after all, in
a church. Not exactly his usual stomping grounds. It doesn't mean
that ME is trying to bring God into the mythology of the show.
A belief in God was probably part of William's make-up, and would
be one of his frames of reference for that which is "good."
[> [> [> [> Re: Him/It -- David
Frisby, 20:39:23 10/01/02 Tue
Yes! Very good insight. I wonder if the vampire felt pain from
the presence of the church? I guess he (as a vampire even) already
knows any such fear is just in his head. Have we seen that Sunnydale
church before? And did Spike (or Will-iam) light those candles?
And is the speech Will-iam gives to Buffy in her house the one
he referred to in 7.1 that he had prepared? "I'm just a guy
who can lend a hand if you'll let me."
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Him/It -- vandalia,
21:49:18 10/01/02 Tue
[i]Have we seen that Sunnydale church before?[/i]
Am I wrong, or was that the Church Angel and Buffy got married
in in whatever episode that was in Season 3 in Buffy's dream,
(or was it Angel's dream) where they exit the church and she turns
to dust in the sunlight?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Not the same one
-- Scroll, 06:06:18 10/02/02 Wed
No, it's not the same church as the one from Angel's dream ("The
Prom"). The church where Angel and Buffy got married was
much larger and more ornate. Actually, I don't think Buffy
has ever used the same church twice. I guess Sunnydale is just
jam-packed with churches and such, what with people needing to
pray more with the Hellmouth and all. : )
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not the same
one -- aliera, 06:15:02 10/02/02 Wed
Did anyone get a good look at that icon? That's been niggling
me...the church is reminiscent but I don't place it as one we've
seen before.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Church, Religion and
Him/IT -- shadowkat, 12:24:38 10/02/02 Wed
The church reminded me of the one in HUSH actually.
Also a little of What's My Line PArt II.
I think it's Calvinist. It's not Catholic. I know that.
It's too bare of religious artifacts. I'm also wondering big time
about William's religious background. I could be wrong, but I
have the feeling that William was studying for the clergy either
in the Anglican or Calvinist churchs when Dru turned him. Which
makes sense - since Dru had be religious as a human and was supposed
to enter a convent, I think like Darla did with Liam, Dru went
for a companion that was like herself in some way.
In another post I list all Spike's religious references.
But if you think back over the seasons you'll notice how of all
the characters he seems to be the most religiously reverent next
to possibly Drusilla. Often saying God or Christ as a curse or
as a plea. Now as William we get a lot of God references. And
he has two - one the evil beneath and one the evil above. Him
perhaps refers to God and It to the thing below? Or maybe Him
is the thing below that is tormenting him?
[> [> [> Re: Him/It -- Sara, 20:35:36 10/01/02
Tue
I think the soul and the demon are two different voices coming
from Spike, but I don't think they're fighting each other, but
are instead struggling to integrate into this new reality of each
other. When one is speaking, it didn't appear as if the other
was being repressed or fighting to get out, it was just which
voice had something to say.
[> [> [> Re: Him/It -- luna, 13:25:53 10/02/02
Wed
I really agree with this. He shifted back and forth between the
two--he got his soul, but unlike Angel/Angelus, didn't lose the
vampire in him. It's already looking like this union of dualism
is a theme.
[> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath You)
-- meritaten, 22:10:22 10/01/02 Tue
Well, I seem to be the only one who thinks this, but I'm leaning
towards the FE being him/it and being a part of Spike's insanity.
If the FE (or whoever the BB is) isn't related to Spike's insanity,
why is Spike seeing him, and why does Spike have knowledge of
what's he/it is doing?
[> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath You)
-- Wizardman, 22:36:34 10/01/02 Tue
Look at the characters that have a direct clue about what's going
on: Halfrek (via the D'Hoffryn and other major demons), Spike,
and Willow. Hallie and Spike are demons, and whatever Willow is,
I'm not sure she's entirely human anymore. Is this a coincidence?
I think not. As for Spike and the taunting- it could have been
his subconscious giving him a clue. Like a waking dream, interpreting
for him what he already knows deep down in his brain, but can't
deal with yet due to everything else that's going on with him.
Or, it could have been the BB having a bit of fun with the "pathetic
schmuck," ala the First Evil in Amends. Hmm, maybe we know
who the BB is now... but knowing Joss, we're in for one HELL of
a curveball. No pun intended.
[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath
You) -- meritaten, 22:56:12 10/01/02 Tue
So, as a vampire, Spike has knowledge of the latest in the realms
of evil? Why haven't we seen this with Angel?
I thought that knowledge of evil came wither through the demon
grapevine or through magic. ... But I could be wrong.
So, how does Spike know the phrase that Buffy heard in her vision/dream?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for
Beneath You) -- Isabel, 17:16:59 10/02/02 Wed
I can think of two possibilities. 1) The Shape-Shifting Entity
mentioned it sometime. Or 2) Perhaps he over heard Buffy say the
phrase to Nancy, Xander and Dawn. Vampires are supposed to have
keen hearing and he arrived in her living room about 10 seconds
later.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers
for Beneath You) -- Indri, 22:10:32 10/02/02 Wed
I can think of a third: the repeating BtVS motif of the insane
as seers, e.g. Drusilla and Glory's victims.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers
for Beneath You) -- meritaten, 22:52:48 10/02/02 Wed
Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that.
[> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath You) -- VLS,
21:10:43 10/01/02 Tue
I don't think spikes chip is working anymore, He looks more surprized
then hurt. also he looked like he was hunting rats at the start
of the show.
[> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath You)
-- Corwin of Amber, 21:31:07 10/01/02 Tue
The chip only prevents him from harming humans, and he did clutch
his head in pain after he impaled whatshizname. I thought he was
just talking to the rats, though.
[> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for 7.2) --
Veronica, 21:46:32 10/01/02 Tue
It reminded me of the first time he hit Buffy after her resurrection
- a bit like he expected it to hurt, but not like it really
hurt.
An important part of getting a soul is having free will to choose
to do the right thing. Buffy couldn't love a chipped Spike in
part because he didn't really choose not to hurt people. The only
way his redemption can be meaningful is if the chip is deactivated.
-V
[> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath You)
-- VLS, 23:16:28 10/01/02 Tue
In "the Initiative" season four' the chip was said to
go off if he hurt any liveing thing.( except maybe flowers?)
[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath
You) -- meritaten, 23:30:26 10/01/02 Tue
Are demons not alive? Or is there a consistency issue here?
[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for Beneath
You) -- Miss Edith, 06:35:31 10/02/02 Wed
Any living thing? What about when he's walking across the grass
and steps on an ant? Can he not swat a fly even?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers for
Beneath You) -- VLS, 12:28:40 10/02/02 Wed
"The Initiative"( season four) Riley: The Implant works,
Hostile 17 can't harm any living creature, in any way, without
intense neurological pain. and "Out of my mind" (season
five) Harmony: (to doctor) You know what it means that he can"t
hurt any living thing? It means he can't even pick flowers. Spike:
WHAT? Yes I Can!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts (spoilers
for Beneath You) -- meritaten, 19:32:33 10/02/02 Wed
I remember wondering what the Initiative defined as a living creature.
Wow (Buffy 7.2)! Can they write? Can they act? -- David Frisby,
19:44:45 10/01/02 Tue
Wow! What an experience! I had to watch that final scene with
Buffy and Will (ie, William, the old Spike, the Spike with the
chip, the Spike in love with Buffy, and the new 2nd vampire with
a soul ever) four times before I could stop and start this. The
episode surpassed my expectations. The spark? What was that line
from OMWF that both Giles and Demon Sweet say at about the same
time? something like what's it going to take to strike a spark?
Buffy wants the fire back. A spark needs to be struck to start
the fire. Is Spike the spark that will rekindle the fire Buffy
wants? the love? romance? marriage as what the destiny of humanity
turns on? what makes the world go round?
Spike now needs to consult with Angel to learn how his first decades
were while learning how to re-master himself after being re-souled.
I want to explore this website again reading again all the great
things said about soul. Plato called it the oldest of all things,
older even that the ideas (which are the true form of the gods).
Nietzsche too, even though finding it necessary due to the contingency
of the times to destroy the old soul-concept (atomic version),
found it both desirable and perhaps best to rebaptize the soul,
and at the end of _Zarathustra_ he teaches his soul to sing, and
the final songs of his marriage are sung by his soul (that which
can defeat gravity not only by dance but by flying). And, speaking
of soul...
Am I right that "Spike" (or whatever his name should
be -- I prefer 'Will' to restore the William aspect) not only
called on God after realizing he had hurt a person, but when explaining
to Buffy said it's what 'you' wanted, it's what 'he' wanted!!!
(If not God, then what? the first?) Will this season address the
powers that be? Spike of "all this" meaning being, or
creation, or the entire world of concern to us.
I really like the way this season has begun. Not playing around
but showing the big bad (the first) straight up, and now directly
addressing the great redemption story through love.
Every season has been better than what came before, and based
on these two episodes, I think we're going get more of the same.
Great work. Thanks!
David
[> Re: Wow (Buffy 7.2)! Can they write? Can they act?
-- Meg, 23:29:57 10/01/02 Tue
The obsessive rewinding also caused me to react to the word "spark"
and my evil mind full of useless facts recalled the song "Spark"
from the church. Very apropos, lyrics below:
"I'm saturated. I'm wet with your tears, you spill so easily.
In reflection I'll see you again.
Approach me, soak me.
Faith, faith, breathe.
'Cause it's here, it's where the air is clear,
Where far off things could be quite near.
No repairs are needed, just a spark.
I'm interested, you've always been a subject, that I could learn.
Splendid hills, unconquerable mountains.
Climb, don't ever turn back.
Seed, seed, grow.
(chorus)
(Repeat first verse and chorus)"
Just more food for thought.
Meg
Symbolism, foreshadowing and myth and some rambling - spoiler
up to Beneath You -- Caroline, 19:49:38 10/01/02 Tue
It seems quite obvious now that Beneath You is yet another ep
where Restless comes to fruition. In Restless, Spike was the sideshow
freak in the circus, having everyone snap photos of him while
heís striking a Christ-like pose. In Beneath You, his ill-hidden
madness make him a sideshow freak ñ he refers to everyone
coming to see him at the circus and ends up burning his flesh
upon a cross in a church. So Joss new at the end of season 4 what
heíd be doing with Spike in season 7.(footnote 1)
The crucifixion pose at the end of the episode is symbolic of
Spikeís self-loathing and hatred. ìAnd now everyone
is in here, talking. Everything I did, everyone IÖ.and him.
It. The other, the thing. Beneath. Beneath you.î With his
newly acquired soul, his moral compass, he has the moral pain
and consequences of all the deaths and evil acts he has committed
inside his head and heart. And, despite having a soul, he still
has the old vampire Spike inside of him ñ him, the other,
the thing that Buffy said was beneath her in FFL. Perhaps he also
has the thing beneath that devours inside him also. Perhaps his
soul is being tormented by the new big bad, Morphy or whatever
it is. And with all this inside him, he feels that he deserves
to go to hell. So in that way, this crucifixion is atonement for
all his past misdeeds, for all the pain he had caused.
We saw in Lessons that Spike was in the basement of the new school.
With Buffy working above, I think it showed that Spike was still
acting as her shadow, with Buffy still being his light. In Beneath
You, Spike stepped out on his own as a whole person in a psychological
sense. Instead of being just id, just the symbol of psychological
darkness, he has acquired a true moral sense. No longer are his
actions and feelings guided by what Buffy would do, he now has
an independent sense of right and wrong. And he feels the burden
and pain of everything he has done. But unsouled vampire Spike
ñ ëthe thingí - is also within him too, as
we saw in his behaviour at the Bronze and his actions before he
stabbed Ronnie.
For me, this helps to illuminate the meaning of the soul in the
buffyverse. A soul is a moral compass but there is still a choice
on the part of the individual whether to follow that guide. So
the soul in the buffyverse is not deterministic, it somehow allows
for the agent to act to follow its dictates or not using free
will.
Spike says that his newly reacquired soul burns him. But last
season in OMWF he also complained of being burnt ñ ìthe
torch I bear is scorching meî. Spikeís scorching
in OMWF is obviously of a different order of magnitude than the
burning of his soul. There is a huge difference between the dark
night of the soul that Spike is currently undergoing to the much
milder torment of having his love rejected.
As for who Spike is now, I donít think he is anyone that
we have previously met. He is no longer unsouled Spike ñ
his past deeds are now haunting him. He doesnít have the
innocent, naÔve self aggrandizement of Randy in Tabula Rasa
ñ ëI must be a noble vampire, one a mission of redemption,
helping the helpless ÖI must be a superhero tooí.
He is no longer William the poet either ñ his soul does
not allow him to sink lethe-wards to forgetfulness.
I think that a clue as to Spikeís new identity can be found
in myth (did you think Iíd post something without a mythological
bent?) and this new identity will not be the fractured one he
has now. Heracles/Palaemon (also Hercules) was a Greek hero rewarded
for his prowess in battle. However, in one battle he went too
far by ordering that his enemyís body be torn apart by
horses. This unjust act sowed terror in Greece and caught the
attention of the goddess Hera, who drove him mad as a punishment.
Heracles ended up killing lots of members of his family. When
he recovered his mind, Heracles shut himself away for days and
later submitted himself to judgment at Delphi. He was ordered
to serve Eurystheus, and perform whatever tasks were requested
of him. He had to sacrifice all his possessions, his earthly rewards,
his status, etc and become a servant. He performed 12 trials or
labours but was given gifts from the gods to help him in his trials.
These trials can be seen as a journey of discovery for Heracles,
a way to discover who he really is because in each trial, he learns
something about himself.
Spike can be compared to Heracles. He is scorned by society and
follows Drusilla down the dark path she offers. He starts a successful,
century-long career of raping and pillaging before falling in
love with the slayer and becoming soulful again in order to be
with her. But the soul drives him insane and he shuts himself
away. He emerges from his seclusion still somewhat mad but now
he wants to somehow try to do the right thing. So he goes to Buffy
and offers her his help. Likes Heracles, he tries to put aside
his former glory and be at the service of another. Like Heracles,
who battles the Hydra, Spike is also battling the beast within,
which the Hydra represents. Itís the beast within him that
is the source of his current pain and madness. But how does Heracles
defeat the Hydra? He tries to shoot arrow into her cave but that
doesnít work. He eventually sends down lighted arrows that
draw her up. But every time Heracles tries to cut off one of her
heads, 3 more grow in its place. When one tries to confront the
beast within, it merely gains more power. Heracles remembers the
advice given to him by his mentor : We rise by kneeling, we conquer
by surrendering, we gain by giving up. So Heracles kneels in the
slime of the swamp, lifts the monsterís head in to the
light and she begins to lose her destructive power, for all her
strength comes only from the swamp. Heracles cuts off her heads
(9 of them) and then a tenth appears which is a jewel. This shows
that if we bring those things that drive us mad up from our unconscious
into the light (give up fighting them), those complexes lose their
power over us. Spike now has a light side that can look upon his
own darkness. Being granted a soul has been equivalent to a gift
from the gods because while it initially has driven him mad, it
also provides the key to lift himself out of the vampire swamp
he has been part of for so long. Then, if he can sacrifice the
unneeded parts of himself ñ pride, desire, illusions etc,
he will find the buried treasure that is within him and be able
to transmute the horrible aspects of his nature. And I think that
is what Spike wants to do when he burns himself on the cross at
the end of Beneath You.
1. It seems as though another piece of foreshadowing is evident.
In season 5 Doc says that Spike looks like someone called Rocco
ñ a human being. Just before Spike runs off after stabbing
Ronnie, he says ëPoor Rockyí. Could Rocco and Rocky
be the same person?
[> Re: (Hercules!) Symbolism, foreshadowing and myth
and some rambling - spoiler up to Beneath You -- David
Frsiby, 20:01:28 10/01/02 Tue
Good insights! I might add a touch to your thought on Spike as
Heracles: in Greek mythology and Plato the biggest battle is between
the gods and giants and it is Heracles that finally decides the
war in favor of the gods, thus playing the central fulcrum of
the cosmos, or something like that. Applying this to your association,
we might think of Spike (or "Will-iam" -- I don't like
saying Spike anymore) as making the difference in the great war
that this season hints is coming. (And did you know Sarah Michelle
Gellar played the voice of Andromeda, Hercules' love, is the Disney
animated half-hour series?) And while I'm at it, I read somewhere
earlier today that Josh told Sarah she would die at the end of
season five, and told her that near the end of season three!!!
Makes you wonder just how far in the future she does play her
part. I'm still not convinced she didn't come back more different
than Tara discovered. Will-iam can still hit her without flinching.
Your "Rocky" thought bears consideration. I drew a blank.
Wow. Whoa --- (give him the emmy)
[> Re: (Rocky!) Symbolism, foreshadowing and myth and
some rambling - spoiler up to Beneath You -- David
Frisby, 20:34:40 10/01/02 Tue
I just noticed that Nancy's dog is named Rocky. She calls it just
beform the worm eats it. So is Spike (= Will-iam) just feeling
sad about the death of Nancy's dog, or is he in contact with all
the dead, and registers Rocky's presence as he runs off?
[> Ummmmmm -- Rufus, 22:27:44 10/01/02 Tue
Rocky was the name of Nancy's dog.
[> [> There's a few references in Buffy& Angel
of "puppies" as vampires -- Ete, 09:24:25 10/02/02
Wed
[> [> Re: Ummmmmm -- Caroline, 07:12:13 10/03/02
Thu
I'm aware of that but could you point out to me where in the episode
Spike is made aware of the dog's name? I can't seem to remember.
But I think the analogy holds. I seem to remember Drusilla referred
to Spike (or Angel?) as a dog or a bad dog.
[> Plus -- verdantheart, 06:47:43 10/02/02 Wed
Spike attempts to pose as the big bad, in a failed attempt cover
up his condition. The dream in Restless shows him as Spike the
poser, posing in one menacing pose after another, only to conclude
with the crucifixion pose.
[> Re: Symbolism, foreshadowing and myth and some rambling
- spoiler up to Beneath You -- leslie,
10:47:15 10/02/02 Wed
Just a comment--remember that Heracles is a twin--his brother
becomes a fairly run-of-the-mill king, while Heracles becomes
a (tortured) hero and eventually a god. Can't remember his twin's
name, but as I recall, this is one of those instances in which
one twin is born of a mortal father and the other (Heracles) is
fathered by a god, Zeus. Heracles' first heroic act is, as an
infant, killing a snake that is threatening him and his brother--one
sent to kill him by that most vengeful of goddesses, Hera, who
is enraged by yet another one of Zeus's infidelities--he keeps
abandoning her, you know. Anyone familiar with Jean Shinoda Bolen's
_Goddesses in Everywoman? Hera is the goddess who becomes enraged
and vengeful as a result of insults to the institution of marriage.
So anyway, divine Heracles and mortal brother = vamp Spike and
mortal William? Hera = Anya?
[> [> Very interesting point... -- Caroline, 06:52:44
10/03/02 Thu
I hadn't even considered Heracles' twin but it does make sense
in terms of Spike's search for identity. Both in terms of his
current inability to reconcile the differing aspects of himself
- as shown by his all over the board behaviour in Beneath You
- and as symbolic of his pre- and post-souled state. As for the
identity of Hera - poor Goddess, why did she stay with her serially
unfaithful hubby? - Anya does seem to fit as the woman scorned.
But I think what is important here is that Spike is on a journey
of discovery for his Self and trying every identity that was previously
available to him in the past and finding them all lacking in some
way. He's going to have to forge a new path that transcends what
he was and encompasses what he currently has and is unable to
deal with.
[> Re: Symbolism, foreshadowing and myth and some rambling
- spoiler up to Beneath You -- Barbara, 16:58:37 10/02/02
Wed
I loved your analogy, Caroline. Did you like Spike in his new
Herculean incarnation? I have to admit that I did not. It was
too much like him trying to imitate Buffy--slugging demons just
because they're demnos--to gain her approval. I was very glad
he removed the blue superman shirt at the end of the episode-madness
would be better than that.
I had my own thoughts on foreshadowing that I posted under a different
thread. I'm copying it out here as well as this seems the the
more pertinent thread after all.
Weren't Anya's actions just a plot device to show some foreshadowing?
That little dog looked like Toto, and Toto appears to be Dawn's
nickname amongst Buffy fans. So what happens--lovers who can't
be gotten rid of (Spike and Ronny)--are changed (both into half
men half demons, if from
opposite directions) by their girlfriend's (Buffy/Nancy) wishes--but
they continue to follow the girls, get angry and then they steal
the girlfriends' dogs (Rocky/Rocco?/Dawn) and take them down to
hell/the hellmouth, where Buffy will be sure to follow like the
good mom/mother goddess
she is being made out to be. Persephone and Demeter. Toto and
Dorothy. I think the devourer beneath will be Spike after he gets
over the Jesus thing and reverts back to the Romantic ideal of
Lucifer that we know and love. Dawn is re-birth, like Persephone,
and might end up spending six months in hell
every year (but I'm hoping that'll be Buffy). Whatever happens,
Spike's spearing of the demon/man foretells his saving of himself,
even if it means becoming fully a demon or fully a man again,
or dying (which is the only time, in my opinion, a soul would
be good for something in his position).
[> [> I like how you think.. -- Caroline, 07:10:17
10/03/02 Thu
although I don't feel that my skills in terms of speculation are
good enough that I would presume to think that I know who the
big bad will be by the second ep! Especially considering how wrong
I've been in previous seasons. I would still say that Buffy is
Persephone - we don't have her yet coming to any understanding
of the origins of her slayer power, which, from all the clues
we've been given, appear to be rooted in darkness. So as well
as having to come to terms with her own darkness psychologically
as a human being, she has to come to terms with the dark underbelly
of slayer power. Persephone manages to do that in her relationship
with Hades and does indeed manage to straddle the world above
and the world below quite well. That's what I hope for Buffy.
It's interesting that you perhaps see Dawn as Kore and a potential
Persephone. I guess that would depend on the nature of her power
as the key, which we have not yet seen manifest in any particular
way (except in the Gift). But since she is made of the same flesh
as Buffy, it may be something we see in the future.
I also think you are onto something with Buffy as Demeter. When
Demeter loses Kore, she is in deep mourning grief. What she is
mourning is not just the loss of her child but the loss of a part
of her that Kore represented. Just as Kore and Persephone are
two sides of the same principle (innocence and knowledge), so
Demeter and Kore and two sides of the same principle (nurturer
and nurtured).
As for Spike, I've been thinking of him in terms of sacrificing
himself or being sacrificed, at least from how I interpret Restless.
But his current psychological state of mind could point in the
direction you are thinking. He is clearly in a dissociative state.
He loves Buffy and hates her 'I dreamed of killing you'. He hates
the power that she has over him, the things that made him do to
win her etc. This is a great Kleinian moment - destroy that which
you love because it causes you so much pain and anguish. If he
doesn't move beyond his envy, it would be quite possible for him
to behave in the way you mention and become Romantic Lucifer.
But I see the spearing of Worm/Ronnie by Spike as the confrontation
of his own dark side. In Beneath You, Spike was incredibly frightened
of his own darkness after the initial bravado while he was twirling
the spear around. With the Heraclean journey he is on now, I think
it's quite possible that he will be the sacrifice once he encounters
and accomodates his darkness with his soul.
Demon Symbolism (Spoilers for 7.2) -- Finn Mac Cool,
20:52:23 10/01/02 Tue
Did anyone else notice the symbolism during the alley scene of
"Beneath You"?
Spike comes right at the demon, yelling out in the most cocky
voice possible, calling himself the big bad, and swinging a metal
poll around just like he did while fighting his second Slayer.
He's obviously full demon at this point. He charges at the worm
demon. . .
. . .and it becomes human. And that's the exact moment Spike's
visage of demonhood slips and he starts babbling like the confused,
insane creature he is now that his human side keeps rising to
the surface. Rony's transformation back into a human signalled
the re-emergence of Spike's soul.
On an unrelated note, Season 7 is off to the greatest start in
Buffy history! This was a wonderfully dramatic episode. I liked
so much about it. The plot twist, scary Dawn, Anya's inner turmoil,
Spike's decay into insanity, Buffy's continued return to her strong,
confident self. Xander's love life (or lack there of). Also, it
effectively balanced comedy and drama, something Season Six wasn't
so great at.
[> Re: Season 7 Getting Off to the Best Start Ever
-- Rob, 21:36:07 10/01/02 Tue
I agree. What other show can recognize it's losing touch with
a great deal of the fans, so promise to come back better than
ever the next season...and actually deliver? Even though I loved
Season 6, it did made me long for the way the show used to be,
at times, and I never thought they'd be able to get it back. Sometimes
when a show reaches a certain age, no matter how much revamping
is done (no pun intended), it can't go back to its glory days.
But if the quality remains at the level it is now, "Buffy"
has succeeded in doing that. It has not only regained its ability
to strike a balance between comedy and drama, but has actually
improved. And the fact that it is so back now reconfirms
my beliefs from last season that the "offness" was more
deliberate than people believed. Season 6 may have been a drag
for some, but all of its events were necessary to take the plot,
show, and characters where they are today. Mostly everyone is
raving about season 7 so far, which is nearly unheard of this
early in a season, and yet just about every major plot this year
sprang directly from the events of last year. I think that it
will become quite clear, when the entire show is over, that Season
6 was an important one to go through. It certainly has made this
season all the more sweet.
I will say that, throughout the middle of the sixth season, although
I still loved the show and applauded the risks it was taking,
I didn't feel that NEED to see the next episode right away that
I had felt throughout all of the other seasons, since the second.
The episode was over, I enjoyed it, but I wasn't dying for the
next one. This year, that adrenaline rushy need is back (has been
for me, since "Seeing Red"). I just finished watching
"Beneath You" and I want to see the next episode immediately.
I have so many questions unanswered--answers I know I won't get
until later in the year, but I need to watch every episode anyway
for any brief glimpse or clue as to what is going on.
I'll just come right out and say it--
I've fallen in love with Buffy all over again, and I'm
the happiest little Scoobie in the world!
Rob
[> [> Re: Season 7 Getting Off to the Best Start Ever
-- Wizardman, 22:44:01 10/01/02 Tue
Buffy is back! And in grand style! My one complaint? Too little
Giles!
If the gang's reaction to Anya and Spike were any indication,
Willow's right to be afraid. Then again, she is better now. Willow
will definitely be needed, but will she be trusted right away?
Xander: Yes.
Buffy Probably.
Dawn: Those that saw tonight's episode should know the answer
to that.
Spike: I don't see why not.
Anya: Watch Triangle. Multiply that by ten. That's probably what
we'll see.
[> [> [> Willow's return: my specs -- HonorH,
00:34:43 10/02/02 Wed
Xander: will accept her as he loves her: unconditionally.
Buffy: will be more guarded. She'll still accept Willow, but as
the Slayer, Buffy will also want to know whether Willow will be
a threat again.
Dawn: will be even more guarded. Willow hurt her badly--taunted
her with the things that hurt her worst, her Key-ness and her
losses. It'll be hard for her to see Willow and not feel that
betrayal. But Dawn's stronger now, strong enough to threaten Spike
and make him believe it. It's going to take time for her and Willow
to not rebuild--their old relationship is gone for good, I think--but
to build a relationship they're happy with.
Spike: may just find himself a soulmate. No, I'm not sorry for
that pun.
Anya: it'll be interesting. That's all I'm saying.
[> [> [> [> Re: Willow's return: my specs
-- Little One, 05:44:29 10/02/02 Wed
Personally I think Anya and Willow's relationship could be a little
more complex. Anya could look to Willow for guidance. Afterall,
Anya was a Bad for quite a significant portion of her life before
she fell in with the Scoobies. Now that she is re-demonized, she
is supposed to pick up where she left off. Unsure of previous
friends, unsure of her actions and, most of all, unsure of her
Badness. Hoping that she doesn't revert to goodness, thus destroying
her self-persona. Willow, on the hand, is the versa of this vice.
She was good, good, good before she became big Veiny-Face. And
she is now trying to put herself together according to the what
the old Willow was, struggling against the fact that the picture
on the puzzle box has changed - Willow is no longer purely good,
nor evil. She is human.
Anya and Willow are really in the same place on different ends
of the good/evil spectrum. If they can see past their differences,
they can help each other.
Oh, and is it a coincidence that Xander was the catalyst for both
Willow and Anya reverting to their former selves? Something tells
me no.
[> [> I'm re-inlove too. It's the EXECUTION that's
back -- Rochefort, 23:12:26 10/01/02 Tue
Many of the things that happened in season six, like Willow's
power problems had been in the works quite obviously from very
early in the season. But when we actually saw them executed they
were done horridly, with poor pacing, cheezy lines, no ability
to build up drama, as if they were connecting the dots with the
broadest wiggliest strokes possible.
It's the EXECUTION that's back this season. They can be dark as
they want as long as they do it with Buffy standard style and
craft. That's what's back.
[> [> [> Me too.... -- mundusmundi, 05:36:58
10/02/02 Wed
The "anti-darkness" label attached to S6 critics has
always been overblown anyway, since nobody ever complained about
the gloom of S2, S3, S4 or S5. (Ok, maybe a little of S5.) One
could argue that if it wasn't for last year's criticisms, ME wouldn't
be going out of its way to not take anything (namely the execution
of its storytelling, as you said) for granted this year. Which
was one of the chief criticisms of S6 in the first place.
[> [> [> [> Me three (spoilers 7.2) -- matching
mole, 06:35:01 10/02/02 Wed
I still consider S6 to be an interesting experiment. And I would
like to affirm what the other mm and the spokesperson for MOLOJ
are saying. What I found lacking in S6 was not the subject matter
but its presentation, especially post TR.
I discovered an unfortunate side effect of S6 on my psyche last
night. When the show got to the scene at the Bronze with the accusations,
and the yelling, and the big Anya/Spike smackdown I was getting
flashbacks to last year. Not that I'm opposed to the dramatic
presentation of such traumatic events. Just that, IMHO, we saw
far too much of that sort of thing in S6 that promised to advance
the plot but rarely did (the endless circling of Buffy that someone
mentioned last spring). Don't get me wrong, I thought last night's
episode was pretty darn good and there was nothing wrong with
that scene at all just with S6 scarred brain. My only real reservation
about the episode was the presentation of Anya which seemed a
bit off compared to late S6 (when I thought she was the best thing
about the show).
A couple of odd ball observations. Any other HP Lovecraft fans
notice the similarity of the name of the worm to Shuggoth?
Anyone else think that Spike driving a metal bar into Ronnie right
after he is de-wormed is reminiscent of Buffy sending Angel to
hell? Somewhat fittingly, given his current states of minds, Spike
is playing both his own role in that drama (wielding the iron
bar like he did the poker) and Buffy's. If the worm/Ronnie is
a stand in for Angel we could also regard it/he as representing
Spike's current condition. Spike is aggressively attacking the
demon aspect but retreats into madness when he injures the human.
[> [> [> [> [> The Chip (spoilers for 7.2)
-- ponygirl, 06:59:13 10/02/02 Wed
It may just be me, but did anyone else think that Spike's pained
reaction to impaling Ronnie was at first habit, then surprise?
If it was the chip he seemed to recover from it far more quickly
than in times past. Spike's reaction after seemed to be one that
appreciated the cosmic joke of having the chip no longer work.
Of course that was mixed in with the insanity so it's hard to
tell.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Chip (spoilers
for 7.2) -- aliera, 07:21:57 10/02/02 Wed
Nope. You're definitely not alone...chip talk in other groups
also. I didn't get the same feel we got when it didn't work on
Buffy though. Not sure what's up.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Chip (spoilers
for 7.2) -- ponygirl, 07:27:51 10/02/02 Wed
In some ways it makes perfect sense, how can Spike truly choose
his nature when he is still kept on his artificial leash? It raises
the stakes tremendously to have him constrained only by his newfound
morality. It seems like a wonderful twist, but of course this
is all based on a debatable reading of the scene. We shall have
to see...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The
Chip (spoilers for 7.2) -- aliera, 07:45:50 10/02/02 Wed
Yep. I'm hearing pretty much what you said. I didn't get quite
that feel off the scene though. I also haven't taped (what is
wrong with me!) but the impression was of pain which triggered
a switch in Who was front and center. Which then went switch switch
switch...can see why JM was pysched for this season. I just keep
saying wow to myself. Season 7 mantra. Also, we have writers comments
that the chip is still working. Wonder if it's working on everything
that came with the soul though...is it next week yet? Grrrr.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
The Chip (spoilers for 7.2) -- leslie,
10:18:36 10/02/02 Wed
I think he definitely did not feel the expected pain at harming
a human, but I think it's interesting that his immediate reaction
was not pain in his head but pain in his soul--which is what sends
him back to babble-on. I think it's setting us up for an answer
to the question of whether or not the chip was an "artificial
soul"; the answer would seem to be that chip and soul perform
the same function. But I also think it's interesting that this
scene follows the scene in the Bronze, where Spike's reaction
to Anya's sensing of his soul is to immediately vamp out--overcompensation
much?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
don't think it was overcompensation -- anom, 22:14:16
10/02/02 Wed
I think he was trying to keep anyone from knowing he had the soul
by acting like the old Spike--faking them out rather than overcompensating.
[> [> [> [> [> On the worm and the sloughing
of skin present and past -- alcibiades, 08:03:39 10/02/02
Wed
Anyone else think that Spike driving a metal bar into Ronnie
right after he is de-wormed is reminiscent of Buffy sending Angel
to hell? Somewhat fittingly, given his current states of minds,
Spike is playing both his own role in that drama (wielding the
iron bar like he did the poker) and
Buffy's. If the worm/Ronnie is a stand in for Angel we could also
regard it/he as representing Spike's current condition. Spike
is aggressively attacking the demon aspect but retreats into madness
when he injures the human.
The worm isn't a stand in for Angel -- it's a stand in for Spike.
Ronnie's a man turned into a worm by a vengeance demon who pursues
one woman again and again. And then, when the spell is reversed
and Ronnie sloughs his skin, what's left is a naked, vulnerable,
wounded man -- incapacitated, in shock.
So, too, after Spike kills his shadow self - he too sloughs off
a layer of skin, calling it his costume, so that he is left, naked
and vulnerable and wounded in the church scene.
Halfrek, as Cecily may or may not have contributed to the fact
that Spike became a vampire -- there is a story there but who
knows whether or not ME will choose to pursue it. But unfortunately
for Spike and fortunately for the show, there won't be one magical
incantation that will help Spike slough his skin neatly. Because
he lived in his demon skin for so long that it truly, madly, deeply
effected him on every level.
All of this sloughing of skin is really the continuation of the
thematic motif began last year when Spike left his coat downstairs
before going up to Buffy to have a real conversation with her
about what he did with Anya and to apologize. He wants to have
a conversation where they really address what is going on, to
communicate on some kind of real level that Buffy keeps on denying
is real. He is stripping off layers which he put on initially
as a defense and as a persona he constructed to get to what is
underneath.
And when he finally sees what is underneath his skin in the context
of Buffy, IOW the complete breakdown of his self control as he
hurts Buffy in the AR, he loathes it. Because the persona of his
skin has seeped into the other part of what he prides himself
on being -- a person who won't hurt Buffy. He learns finally it
is quite impossible to put on a
persona and live for a time in that skin and for that not to happen,
for the skin not to influence the man.
In FFL, it is quite obvious that even Spike's accent and his name
is part of the persona he spent 120 years carefully constructing
and inhabiting. The duster is, as it were, the epitome of that
personality, since he took it as a trophhy off the back of the
final slayer he killed. He is
at the peek of his fame and his prowess and his cajones within
the vampire world at that moment. He has had two good days. No
one really has ever had more -- that we know of at least -- he
was a legendary dark warrior.
It is interesting that Spike has always known about using props
-- physical barriers to protect what lies beneath.
And now the man must emerge from inside the skin, naked and vulnerable,
slough off the empty shell, the husk, and grow a new skin, but
this time a genuine one. He has to deal with himself at last.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Very nice -- dream
of the consortium, 09:04:18 10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On the worm and
the sloughing of skin present and past -- leslie,
10:22:16 10/02/02 Wed
"In FFL, it is quite obvious that even Spike's accent and
his name is part of the persona he spent 120 years carefully constructing
and inhabiting."
And is it my imagination, but isn't he slipping back and forth
between William's accent and Spike's accent when he's nuts? Especially
when he's in the basement.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On the worm
and other things...and alcibiades good post -- aliera, 11:38:47
10/02/02 Wed
Not your imagination, William Spike and others I think. (and agree
also with your post above on the chip.) Maybe I'm just weird but
I didn't see Spike when he appeared in her house but someone else,
maybe a masque or the combined William/Spike, I don't know yet.
There's commentary at the Stakehouse on the blue as a superhero
costume, one of the ways part of him could see himself fitting,
based on Season 5 and Tabula Rasa. Alcibiades great post...there
was some commentary last season and after about this re: Spike
clothed/or not...pattern continuing. Also the language, the way
he is using He She It instead of you and me ...intriguing. Lots
of Spike commentary today, not just here, leslie, you may be right
about JM...we'll have to see, he's certainly filling the screen.
Dawn's looking awfully good too. (And Giles...sigh) And I 'm still
getting funny vibes from some of Sara's performance. I don't know
if it's timing or what, but something's still discordant or a
little off or something...again we'll have to see.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> cigarettes,
accents, language, uniform Spike (7.2 spoilers) -- shadowkat,
13:03:12 10/02/02 Wed
I agree. I too have noticed how the accents change depending on
the persona along with the words. When he draps himself over the
cross - he is speaking cultured English not Cockney slang and
uses third person nouns like someone who has been educated. (Rumor
has it - that Petrie originally had him quote bad poetry to her,
but Joss insisted it be rewritten and refilmed. Glad they did
it the way they did.) Spike uses slang, his words are chopped
off.
The man in the house - barely spoke. The old Spike would have
leered or snarked at Xander or Dawn. This one didn't.
This one was very contained. He spoke softly and looked as if
he was holding his breath. His speech became more slang filled
as he got comfortable with her. And she tries to bait him. At
the Bronze it is the old Spike, except there's a change - a) the
custom is sooo not big bad or bad boyfriend, more ordinary guy.
b)he doesn't really fight Buffy back - he just keeps baiting her
- saying whatever he can think of to get her to hurt him more,
like he did in HLOD. I winced at some of the stuff he said.
(I think he does it as a reaction to what Anya saw and is terribly
afraid Buffy and the others noticed. His distraction works - Buffy
believes he's the old Spike.)
Unfortunately that falls apart in the alley. And I agree to Spike
- the worm is him. It symbolizes him. He even says - somtehing
to the effect that we're demons and we should be killed, and killing
demons is what I'm good at - when he thrusts in the pole.
His pain - I'm not sure about the chip. I think he was most surprised
by the emotional pain. He felt both for Rocky the dog and for
Ronnie the man. He says I'm sorry - in William's voice and pulls
out the bar. This is something Spike would never have done. Buffy
would have had to stop him. And he would have retorted something
to the effect of "sympathy for the man with the migraine".
He clearly is crushed by his action on so many levels: 1) he didn't
help buffy and the entity is telling him how weak and pathetic
and useless he is. A feeling Buffy echoes by her expression.
2. His soul is raging at him for it. 3. his demon is raging
at him.
Also I've been wondering about this for a while now. Why isn't
Spike smoking? Where are his cigarettes? Spike always smoked.
That cigarette was as much a part of his persona as the jacket.
Has anyone seen him smoke a cigarette??
I'm loving the NewSpike. I'm loving watch JM - jeeze he has made
this show his stage. But the others did their jobs as well, they
just didn't have nearly as much to do.
SMG was pretty darn good in the final season. She does seem off
a bit - particularly in the cheerful scenes but I think she is
supposed to be. She's pretending to be cheerful w/ the principal
while the whole time she's worrying about that crazy vampire she
saw in the basement. In some ways her role is harder than JM's
since she has to react to him. She has to convey through her expression
what she feels without much dialogue. That's hard to do.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
cigarettes, accents, language, uniform Spike (7.2 spoilers and
further spec) -- aliera, 14:15:14 10/02/02 Wed
I'm wonder about the rumours that are floating now about Buffy...resurfaced
from last year's very red herrings in particular. With Sara it's
on purpose when she twiddles with timing or method, at least according
to JM's interviews...you'd know better than me, this isn't my
forte.
Hard to stay off the boards today, at least for me...I just finished
reading the archives from the past week last night there's paper
ankle deep in my bedroom right now and this afternoon coasted
around the boards trying to get other perspectives...the hook
is well and truly sunk...love it!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On the worm Spoilers
for S6, S7 to 'Beneath You.' -- Age, 18:02:40 10/02/02
Wed
Nancy's dog represents Spike before he could hurt Buffy, being
the puppy, being led about. He was still beneath Buffy, ie a dog,
but he was harmless. But once he could hurt her, he became the
phallic symbol with teeth again, stalking her, trying to bring
her down into his dark world as represented by Ronny, the sluggoth
demon. When Spike found out that he could hurt Buffy, the devoted
little dog on the leash got gobbled up by the phallic symbol with
teeth, leading to the attempted rape...which then led to Spike's
leaving to get his soul back, which ultimately resulted in this
episode.
Ronny's transformation into sluggoth demon is an embellishment
by Anya as she tries, like Spike, to disguise the fact that she
has changed. This is why the two stories are intertwined. The
unfinished business with the ex's is needed to bring out the results
of the transformation through love from last year. The worm/sluggoth
demon thus represents an aspect of Spike's nature which led to
the attempted rape and also his current condition of trying to
be the big bad again, trying to embellish when the human in him
is really wanting to reveal himself. In the bar scene both Anya
and Spike go into game face, so to speak, to reinforce the mask
imagery. In fact the bar scene, reinforcing the motif of performance
by being like a farce or circus or freakshow, recaps the events
of last season in order to show us how we got to where we are,
and therefore acting as an explanation as to why last season was
needed(just as the dog to sluggoth demon showed the change in
Buffy's relationship with Spike.)
Once Xander shows Anya that she's using her anger at him as an
excuse not to acknowledge that she herself has changed, she reverses
the spell. It is at this point too when the persona that Spike
is using breaks down. He's simply hurting the human that he has
fought to become by playing this role of big bad Spike, spiking
Ron as he returns to being human. The business with the ex's was
needed to be worked through both with Xander and Buffy in order
to help Anya and Spike move forward. I think Xander and Buffy
were helped also, but in Buffy's case one doesn't treat attempted
rape lightly. This is going to stay with her.
The final scene in the church where Spike burns himself on the
cross was quite wonderful. It's so ironic that resting on a symbol
of wholeness indicating every aspect of himself, he calls for
rest. But rest is exactly what he's had all these years as the
undead, as someone who gave up wholeness. The living never can
rest, being human is a work in progress.
A quick point: are we to infer from the Principal's name that
the extended metaphor of the dark wood from last year has been
transformed into the green wood symbolizing that in adulthood
one never leaves the wood, but one learns to operate better in
it, making it ones natural home, like the band of merry men?
Was 'Beneath You' about doing what it takes to get the gang back
together to meet the coming whatever that the sluggoth demon also
represented by being a worm, ie a tube, the hellmouth, with teeth?
Everything's connected.
Is Buffy's new job an adult/non-metaphorical version of the slayer?
If the slayer is metaphorical and slays inner demons, representations
of emotions or problems either ignored and thus given power or
simply too hard to face etc, then perhaps listening to teenagers'
problems and feelings is a way of 'slaying' them before they gain
too much power. It's all about power, but what kind?
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> WOW ! Great post
! -- Ete, 21:03:40 10/02/02 Wed
I knew it ! I knew the worm was BOTH a phallic and a vaginal (hellmouth)
symbol :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On the worm
Spoilers for S6, S7 to 'Beneath You.' -- aliera, 06:55:49
10/03/02 Thu
Thanks Age. Lovely post again. And Ete that was my thought too
but I was hesitant to post it. The worm/snake image is an archetypical
one? Cutting across culture and time, very old but even seen in
early christian mythos associated with the cross (world tree).
Generally associated with healing, I believe. Swallowing it's
tail. Guarding the world tree. Shedding it's skin. Spirals.
"I am Atum, creator of the Eldest Gods,
I am he who gave birth to Shu,
I am the great he/she.
I am he who did what seemed good to him,
I took my space in the space of my will,
Mine is the space of those who move along
Like those two great serpentine circles."
Atum discriptions from Coffin Texts
And we saw it early season last year too...crawling under Willow
skin and coming out of her mouth. This year crawling beneath Sunnydale
and coming up out of the ground. Jung associated the image of
the serpent with the unconscious, chthonic and spiritual. In particular,
according to Jung in at least one piece I read, the snake has
sudden and painful manifestations and frightening effects. A symbol
of transition of creative energy and immortality. Campbell discusses
the role of the serpent too.
"In both of the stories (Bassari legend and Genisis) the
snake is the symbol of life throwing off the past and continuing
to live. Life sheds one generation after another to be born again.
The serpent represents immortal energy and consciousness engaged
in the field of time. There is something tremendously terrifying
about life if you look at it that way. And so the serpent carries
in itself both the fascination and the terror of life."
Other symbols we have already seen this season, the cross, the
sun and the maze (both on a poster in Lohegrin's class and in
the basement of the new highschool.) The Bronze too would be recognized
by Campbell as the mythic bar/watering hole, a place of transition
and transformation. So this year we are seeing a lot of Earth
and Water so far and the reference to Fire is internal? The burning
spark in Spike and Buffy seems to have her spark back. We also
have Xander involved in constructing the school attempting to
bring structure to actualize thought in the world, ironically
over the Hellmouth again. And in Willow we have the reference
to Gaia which may become important later and again there is a
reference to having assimilated/brought in something. The magic
is in her, a fundamental part of her.
The name of the principal is interesting as you pointed out...leading
to Robin Hood but; for me to the Green Man the God of the Wood,
Jack in the Green, Pan, the woods another place of transformation.
And yes, it is very interesting that this has now manifested in
the world and more so that Robin Wood (the vegetarian?)is in charge
of the highschool which also has a labyrinth in the basement.
Oddly, he himself represents authority and warns Buffy? I'm not
sure how to place his role yet, he is in a position representing
order yet his name is a reference to the transforming power of
Nature/Chaos?
I liked your thought on Buffy's new position. She seems in the
first two episodes to be transitioning to more of a mentoring
role again. And I think you are right that it's important not
to lose sight of the heavy mention of Power in Lessons. All in
all a lot to think about...thanks again for your post.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Great posts
Age, Ete and aliera! -- ponygirl, 08:12:00 10/03/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Kaboom! Love the
way you put that together. -- Caroline, 07:39:57 10/03/02
Thu
Both Spike and Anya are having issues with their identities, having
a difficult time integrating the changes that have occurred in
them. Anya has quota, has to please the boss, etc. She's not doing
this for the love of vengeance, she's doing it out of fear and
hurt. As for Spike, his behaviour was all over the place - big
bad, sensitive, mad/crazy - precisely because he doesn't know
who he is. Spike and Anya revert to demon masks because that comes
so easily after all this time but it also points to the huge task
they have ahead of them to integrate the changes that have occurred
to their non-demon sides. But that is the struggle for identity
that we all face in our lives.
Thanks for a great post.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> On SEX POODLES
and Penis Monsters -- alcibiades, 08:12:42 10/03/02 Thu
It is interesting that both Anya and Spike feel sorry for Rocky
-- whereas Nancy, Xander and Buffy don't.
As you say, Spike was originally the puppy in his relationship
with Buffy, but then so was Anya in her relationship with Xander,
she heeled to his command, she obeyed his words of censure and
corrected her behavior. She was rambunctious like a puppy in love
at her wedding with display after display of affection pouring
out of her. And the kicker --SHE CALLED herself Xander's SEX POODLE.
The dog owners displayed just about as much affection for their
pets as Nancy did for hers. i.e., why didn't I have a cat, it
would be less trouble, no I just had to have a demon...er...dog.
Xander fans are not going to like that comment -- but it often
seems to me that Xander is really upset about the fact that he
is upset, not about the fact that Anya is hurting and that he
caused that. And after all, why did Xander become abusive in their
"future" relationship, it was because Anya stepped out
of her role, as the adoring puppy who will follow his lead.
Nancy seemed curiously un-upset by the death of her puppy. After
it was gone, she didn't have any regrets, no tear for the dog,
she never mentioned it, and started hitting on Xander almost immediately.
Age proposed that at first Spike is Buffy's puppy, harmless,
affectionate, cute, until he turns into the ravening penis monster
with teeth.
To add to Age's thought, to that extent, Buffy is Nancy and her
fear last year was that the penis monster keeps on pursuing her
to swallow her from beneath, i.e. the genitalia are beneath as
supposed to the head, which is above, also, to suck her into hell.
Behavior Spike seems to be continuing as the penis monster, er,
worm tracks Nancy on the ground and Spike tracks Buffy in the
sky, across the roofs.
The critical point is when Spike jumps into fight the penis demon
for Buffy -- symbolizing the human part of Spike fighting against
the part of his nature that allowed him to attempt to rape Buffy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
On SEX POODLES and Penis Monsters -- Caroline, 09:30:32
10/03/02 Thu
I must be channeling you right now because I posted a similar
idea in another thread - Spike fighting with the monster is actually
symbolic of the struggle with the demon still inside him. But
he is still scared and frightened of his dark self and in a huge
amount of pain - he can't deal with his darkness, is driven again
to madness again and runs off to escape.
Thanks for another great post.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: On SEX POODLES and Penis Monsters/Persephone -- alcibiades,
14:50:00 10/03/02 Thu
Thanks Caroline.
I read your thread right after I posted this and I realized I
was overlapping with some of what had been said.
I'm still thinking about your Persephone posts -- in that context,
what did you make of Willow drawing the passion flower through
the earth, then sinking it back to its roots?
[> [> [> Indeed! -- Cactus Watcher, 07:27:41
10/02/02 Wed
This is what I was talking about all last season. If you accept
whatever ME or any other group of writers and artists throw at
you simply based on past reputation, you really are not doing
either them or yourself a favor. The quality has gone up this
year, and I think we can safely say that it was because a lot
of us fans weren't happy with the execution last year. Last night
for the first time in a long time I was thinking, gee, SMG is
having to do a lot more than sleepwalk through her part. And JM,
good grief! Is there anyone out there who thinks he couldn't star
in his own show, in his own movies? Quaility is the reason I started
watching Buffy in the first place. Quality is the reason I'm very
pleased with this season so far.
[> [> [> [> Re: Indeed! -- leslie,
10:36:00 10/02/02 Wed
"And JM, good grief! Is there anyone out there who thinks
he couldn't star in his own show, in his own movies?"
Is there anyone out there who isn't starting to suspect that he's
already starring in his own show, no matter which character is
in the title?
[> [> Re: Season 7 Getting Off to the Best Start Ever
-- aliera, 05:48:58 10/02/02 Wed
I'll echo that Rob; I have the same feeling...the desire to watch
and rewatch...I'm very pysched.
[> [> Re: Season 7 (Just adding my two cents)
-- Sarand, 08:06:45 10/02/02 Wed
I'm LOVING this season. I watched and re-watched both episodes
- they were just so terrific. And last night's episode? Kind of
embarassed to say that I cried both times I watched it. And I
agree, after what happened last season and knowing what the characters
went through just makes what's happening now so much better.
By the way, did anybody else in the NYC area have wonky reception
on UPN? It's happened to me both weeks now - the picture slows
or freezes or blacks out and some of the dialogue is lost and
there are these funny lines on the picture screen. It doesn't
happen on any other station. I don't watch anything else on UPN
but I didn't notice it for the few minutes of "Haunting"
that I saw. Btw, I have cable.
[> [> [> Re: Season 7 ( Just adding my two cents
about the chip) & wonky reception on UPN -- VLS, 11:37:58
10/02/02 Wed
I live in MO. and have a satelite dish and had the same problem,
must be UPN. also it looked like spike was hunting the rat at
the start of the show and he looked more surprised then hurt when
he stabbed ronnie. the chip may still work but I don't think it
works on spike anylonger, hope we will find out soon.
[> [> [> [> Sorry! possible Spoilers Above (NT)
-- VLS, 11:54:21 10/02/02 Wed
[> [> [> UPN and wonky -- shadowkat, 07:04:41
10/03/02 Thu
Yep so did I and also have cable. I contacted my cable company
to get better reception and they are coming on Sat.
(Because I have five other channels that have similar problems.)
But - the UPN feed of Btvs jumped over three main lines
in the Anya -Spike sequence in the Bronze. I live in NYC. For
my mother who lives in Hilton Head - the sound was too low, she
had to turn it way up, and five lines were blurred. It also went
wonky the week before.
If this keeps up - I may email UPN and complain.
[> [> [> [> Re: UPN and wonky -- alcibiades,
07:45:37 10/03/02 Thu
yeah I also live in NYC and I had wonky reception -- really annoying
-- except that this always seem to happen during Buffy -- it happened
last year as well. In fact, wasn't the wonkiness of the reception
the reason they replayed OMWF for a second time in the same week
last year.
[> [> [> [> UPN's wonkiness abounds -- neaux,
12:02:49 10/03/02 Thu
Yeah.. coming from Durham, NC.. somthing is up with our UPN affiliate.
Buffy is very low.. I always have to crank the volume just to
hear it. Last week I thought it was because my wife decided to
vaccum (shakes fist at wife). But this week I had to crank up
the volume again because everything was a mumble.
Also.. the show bounced like 3 times. I dont know if that has
to do with reception or not.. but heck I have digital cable. makes
no sense.
[> Ditto, love season 7 -- Apophis, 22:18:21 10/01/02
Tue