November 2003 posts
Buffy and Anya in "Selfless"
-- Claudia, 12:42:02 11/12/03 Wed
I've read many commentaries on various BtVS forums about Buffy's
actions against Anya in "Selfless". On many of these
forums, members seemed to have come to the conclusion that Buffy
genuinely tried to kill Anya in that episode. I cannot help but
wonder why anyone would believe that, considering that Buffy used
a sword against Anya. Didn't the Season 6 episode, "Older
and Far Away" establish that one cannot kill a vengeance
demon with a sword? If so, what was Buffy's real purpose in going
after Anya with a sword?
Replies:
[> A Number of Possibilities (variations on a theme)
-- cjl, 13:11:36 11/12/03 Wed
BUFFY: It is always different! It's always complicated. And at
some point, someone has to draw the line, and that is always going
to be me. You get down on me for cutting myself off, but in the
end the slayer is always cut off. There's no mystical guidebook.
No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply. There's only
me. I am the law.
XANDER: There has to be another way.
BUFFY: Then please find it.
[Xander takes his coat and leaves. Buffy goes to the tool chest
and grabs a sword. She looks at Willow, wanting her to follow,
but Willow doesn't move.]
WILLOW: I can't. I'm sorry.
[Buffy leaves the house, sword in hand.]
*******
Buffy appears to have gone all Judge Dredd on the gang, with her
pronouncements of "I am the law!" and her "slash
first, ask questions later" attitude. But look in between
the lines of dialogue. She doesn't try to stop Xander from rushing
out, obviously to warn Anya. If she truly wanted Anya dead and
gone, why wouldn't she tell Xander to stay home so he wouldn't
witness the gruesome proceedings? Why doesn't she snap at Willow
for not participating in the demon killage? And yes, why does
she take a sword, when we all know vengeance demons are a hardy
breed o' evil?
There are a number of possible conclusions:
1. Buffy wanted to force Anya to make a choice, not to kill her.
Buffy might have thought that since Anya was changed from human
to demon and then back again--twice--Anya might have the option
to change back again, and renounce demonhood once and for all.
The sword was there to show Anya the ultimate consequence of her
actions as a demon in Buffy's domain. Xander was there to show
Anya what she's losing by remaining a demon. If, at any point
in the battle, Anya called in D'Hoffryn to beg for release, Buffy
probably would have backed off. If not, Buffy probably would have
gone ahead and killed her. And yes, she would have found a way
to kill Anya without the sword.
[What would have happened if D'Hoffryn changed Anya back into
a mortal, but DIDN'T kill Halfrek and reverse that last wish?
Something to think about, isn't it?]
2. Stalling for time.
She let Xander get a huge jump. She left Willow back in the house
to think things over. Buffy obviously wanted one of them to come
up with a solution. Willow came up with the solution, and it worked
out for almost everybody--well, except for Halfrek, of course....
3. Buffy didn't want to kill Anya, but she couldn't ignore what
she thought was her duty.
A variation of #2. It's possible that Buffy was so conflicted
about killing Anya, that she didn't remember swords were ineffective
against vengeance demons, or even subconsciously wanted Anya to
survive/escape.
4. Whoops. ME forgot about that little piece of information from
OAFA.
[> [> Another thought -- Gyrus, 13:56:23 11/12/03
Wed
IIRC, "Older and Far Away" only established that you
can't kill a vengeance demon by running her through with
a sword. Beheading, on the other hand, might still work. (Of course,
this explanation doesn't account for Buffy's apparent belief that
she had killed Anya when she ran her through.)
[> [> [> What makes you say Buffy thought Anya was
dead? -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:39:30 11/12/03 Wed
She may have been waiting to see what Anya would do next. Also,
in response to cjl, considering Anya references OAFA right after
being stabbed, it's clear ME didn't forget.
[> [> Re: A Number of Possibilities (variations on a
theme) -- Stephen, 17:37:54 11/14/03 Fri
I have a few points to make.
1. "To kill a demon cut off it head" -The Dark Ages.
Its also, with a few exceptions, a fairly common belief about
monsters. I'm willing to bet, given the physical damage done to
Anya at the end of season six, that used properly a sword would
kill a V Demon.
2. "It was an everyone except me sucks speech" Buffy
is frankly self-rightious and egocentric a lot of the time, and
this isn't high-register viewing. If we were supposed to beleif
it had all been a cunning roose their would be a more explicit
suggestion.
3. "I killed Angle and he was everything to me". Hardly
consistant is she. Spike had clocked up a fair bodycount over
his lifetime and she neglects him because he's useful to her,
becuase he;s seeping with her, or becuase he comes in a new bit-free
version, and Dawn had the weight of the world cemented to her
feet. Buffy is willing to kill Anya becuase she knows/believes
it is the right thing to do and it isn't as difficult for her
as killing, say, Angel, Willow, Spike or Dawn. She is, like most
people, willing to make exceptions to the law for her own sake,
but Anya doesn't qualify for such a dispensation. Xander is right,
the law isn't fair.
4. Now she has tried to kill all of herr friends, lucky they never
tried to kill her when she became dangerous huh? And lets skim
over all the knights she killed at the end of season 5 becuase
their beliefs about write and wrong were different (and more rational)
than hers. I guess personal morality over pragmatic morality only
wins when she thinks it should?
In conclusion, yes Buffy meant to kill Anya. It probably was the
right thing to do, but her reasoning and was wrong. She is a spoiled
super-child with double-standards.
[> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless" -- skeeve,
14:24:51 11/12/03 Wed
Of course, the real question is why didn't Buffy go after the
amulet.
I think that Buffy was trying to kill Anya.
Buffy doesn't lie well.
[> [> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless"
-- Ames, 16:02:06 11/12/03 Wed
How would Buffy know to go after the amulet? She's not the Buffy
from the world of The Wish, nor is there anyone from that world
who could have told her about it (even Willow didn't know why
Anya was so anxious to get her amulet back in Doppelgangland).
I think Buffy went into this situation in Selfless prepared to
kill Anya if necessary, but also prepared for alternative outcomes.
When you're in a serious fight, you take whatever advantage presents
itself. Buffy had a chance to run Anyanka through with the sword
and pin her to the wall, so she took it. Anyanka appeared dead
for a moment, so Buffy backed off. Probably she knew that wouldn't
be enough to kill a vengeance demon, but she wasn't necessarily
going all out to kill her at that point, but rather to drive home
her point (so to speak).
[> [> [> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless"
-- skeeve, 09:05:41 11/13/03 Thu
Point made.
Giles could have figured it out, but he wasn't around.
That leaves Anya herself.
When she was remorseful enough to have D'Hoffra (sp?) kill her,
one would think that she would have been remorseful enough to
destroy her amulet.
[> [> [> Re: Buffy and Anya in "Selfless"
-- Claudia, 09:39:38 11/13/03 Thu
"I think Buffy went into this situation in Selfless prepared
to kill Anya if necessary, but also prepared for alternative outcomes."
But with what? A sword? Or did Buffy have another idea on how
to kill Anya? She must have known from the Halfrek incident in
"Older and Far Away" that a sword would not have killed
Anya. Buffy was there when that demon ran Halfrek through with
a sword. And when Halfrek regained consciousness. So again, why
did she go after Anya with a weapon that would not have killed
the latter?
[> [> [> [> Swords. Not just for skewering anymore.
(Spoilers AtS 5.06) -- Just a guy lurking, 13:26:49 11/13/03
Thu
"She must have known from the Halfrek incident in "Older
and Far Away" that a sword would not have killed Anya. Buffy
was there when that demon ran Halfrek through with a sword. And
when Halfrek regained consciousness"
So what you're saying is:
The Demon ran Hallie through with a sword.
She didn't die.
Ergo, vengeance demons can't be killed with swords.
Faulty logic there. You see:
Cheesy Aztec-demon ran Angel through with a sword.
He didn't die (OK, he was already dead, but hey)
Ergo, vampires can't be killed with swords?
Unless vengeance demons are a Pylean subspecies, I'm pretty sure
they can be killed by decapitation. And swords can do that.
Does this satisfy your question?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Swords. Not just for skewering
anymore. (Spoilers AtS 5.06) -- Claudia, 14:21:58 11/13/03
Thu
"Does this satisfy your question?"
I'm sorry, but it doesn't.
From "Older and Far Away":
"HALFREK: (deep resonant voice) You rang?
(Demon emerges from the wall, skewers Halfrek)
ANYA: (punching the demon) I hope you die, you stupid jerkface!
(fighting, Buffy traps the demon in the sword, breaks the sword)
ANYA: Her pendant! Get her pendant!
HALFREK: There will be no touching of the pendant. What? (laughs)
Did you think I'd be stopped by a sword in the chest? Flesh wound.
Honestly, Anyanka, you used to know better."
[> [> [> [> [> [> She specifically said "sword
in the chest" -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:40:43 11/13/03
Thu
Nothing about "sword through the neck".
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Swords. Not just for
skewering anymore. (Spoilers AtS 5.06) -- skeeve, 08:28:32
11/14/03 Fri
So in a later episode Buffy should have had a clue about Anya's
pendant.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy still didn't
know exactly what the pendant was. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:53:04
11/14/03 Fri
She could obviously tell that Anya wanted to take it from Halrek
and that Halrek didn't want that to happen, but she had no way
of knowing the specifics. Is it really tied to her power, or is
it just something else she treasures? And, if it is attached to
her powers, do all vengeance demons have one (Anya hid her's very
well). Lastly, this assumes that Buffy even remembers that brief
exchange between Anya and Halrek nearly a year earlier.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy still
didn't know exactly what the pendant was. -- skeeve, 08:01:45
11/17/03 Mon
I would expect that Buffy and Anya would have discussed the matter
later.
If Buffy didn't infer that the pendant was related to power, Anya's
behaviour would have seemed a non sequitor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why would
they have? Buffy and Anya were never that close. -- Finn Mac
Cool, 11:17:49 11/17/03 Mon
Besides, Anya's known for weird behavior. The amulet thing would
be easy to forget.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also,
don't forget that S7 opened with Anya having reverted to vengeance.
-- Sophist, 12:31:08 11/17/03 Mon
She was not likely to be sharing trade secrets with Buffy under
the circumstances.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Why would they have? Buffy and Anya were never that close.
-- skeeve, 12:49:27 11/17/03 Mon
Anya's noted for weird comments, not stealing.
Anya is a devout capitalist.
She does not believe in stealing.
Buffy and Anya having a heart-to-heart would seem improbable.
Buffy asking Anya "What was *that* about?" seems quite
probable.
angel/spike (spoiler)
-- aperitis, 20:03:54 11/12/03 Wed
i am disconcerted as to why angel would want to take the plunge
and become human by drinking from that cup thing...didnt angel
already become human once and realized that he cant "fight
the good fight" without his vampiric demon side? why would
he want to give it up the fight just to become human? and spike,
who i totally dont get right now, is aching to become human for
some reason; enough to fight angel for the cup...why? i dont understand...i
mean they already have souls so they feel remorse; whats becoming
human gonna do except make them grow old and die...they already
have the one thing that separates demons from humans...the soul...plus
they got the super strenth, immortality, unbeatable tracking skills...why
give that up? EXPLAIN PLEASE!!
Replies:
[> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- Maura, 22:30:45 11/12/03
Wed
I've been wondering about this too.
Here are a few thoughts.
Angel: I suspect his main motive for wanting to become human is
to exorcise the demon/Angelus, so that he can just have the soul
and not the soul fighting the demon. He'd also presumably be able
to be happy without dire consequences. In the back of his mind
(or maybe not so far back?), there may be a hope of having a life
with Buffy. (He seemed to be thinking about it in "Chosen.")
Spike: He's a bit harder for me to figure out. He too may be imagining
the possibility of a human life with Buffy. He may also not want
to fight the demon anymore. And I think there is an element of
competition with Angel, and some of it may be "mere"
rivalry, but I think it can be more complex too. Spike's just
started his path to redemption (chronologically, compared to Angel),
so Angel would naturally stand out as a role model/pattern for
that journey. So if Angel views the "big prize" as becoming
human, Spike may too because that seems to be "the way redemption
works."
[> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- luvthistle1, 23:15:41
11/12/03 Wed
..Well, Angel ( and Spike too , I suppose) feels if he was human,
he would be able to be with Buffy. Both of them seems to have
forgotten that Buffy is still a slayer, therefore she is still
not totally human herself. If Buffy truly wanted to be with a
human, she would have had a relationship with Xander, or made
the relationship with Riley work...but she didn't.
Angel was human once, but choose to become a vampire with a soul.
he claim to have did that for Buffy, although Buffy had no say
so in the matter. I think a part of him, hated feeling helpless.
Note: he didn't think that the fact that she lived in Sunnydale
and he live in L.A, that there was a chance that he wasn't going
to be there to save her, or the fact that she wasn't the slayer
anymore, Faith was.
Spike , I believe have a hidden desire to be human. he never shy
away from interacting with people. he eats actual food and is
very social. although he would never admit it, he not very showy
with his gameface as he once told Willow in season 4. I think
he would miss the power behind being a vampire, but I think he
would adjust better then Angel, considering he had more time getting
use to being out in the world.
Dru once told Darla that Spike and Angel were fighting over the
"king of cups", but it is not his birthday. which implies
that prehaps neither would win.
Note: the last thing Dru Told spike was "she tasted ashes"
all around him. which is exactly what happen, in "Chosen",
where spike went up in smoke.
[> [> King of Cups -- Claudia, 13:44:02 11/13/03
Thu
"Dru once told Darla that Spike and Angel were fighting over
the "king of cups", but it is not his birthday. which
implies that prehaps neither would win."
Is this what you meant? From "Fool For Love":
DARLA: (sing-song; to Drusilla) I think our boys are going to
fight.
Drusilla claps her hands giddily.
DRUSILLA: The King of Cups expects a picnic! But this is not his
birthday.
Darla looks at Drusilla like she's crazy.
DARLA: Good point...
The odd thing is that I thought that Drusilla was talking about
Spike.
[> [> [> Some clarification -- KdS, 04:03:51
11/14/03 Fri
This line of Dru's has been much discussed in the past, and the
consensus was that she was referring to the tarot card the King
of Cups, which is the symbol of a wise, just and merciful ruler.
Hence this was considered to be a prophetic allusion to the future
("not [yet] his birthday") souling of one or both vamps.
[> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- CarolB, 03:28:44
11/13/03 Thu
Drinking from the cup is *not* going to make the one who does
so human . . . it's just going to make the person who drinks from
it *specifically* the Vampire Champion with a Soul that is mentioned
in the Shanshu Prophesy.
Angel and Spike think that whoever drinks from the cup will
be the one that the prophesy is taking about (and stop the Universe
from going all wonky), so *that* is why they're fighting over
the cup.
[> [> Re: angel/spike (spoiler) -- aperitis, 09:04:46
11/13/03 Thu
where did the previous post-er get that buffy is not a slayer
anymore, last time i checked shw was an uber-strong woman who
could stake a vamp with her eyes closed...she is still a slayer,
there were just two of them when faith came on...that doesnt negate
buffys "slayerity"...ot just means that shes not the
only one anymore...there are more slayers
[> [> [> I think Buffy *is* still a slayer --
Vickie, 14:24:27 11/13/03 Thu
Buffy is still "a" slayer, of course. Some folks seem
to think that there is a distinction between being an activated
potential (a slayer) and the one through whom the lineage runs
(The Slayer).
Arguably, Faith was The Slayer from Becoming Part One (Kendra's
death) to Chosen. Buffy's first death in Prophecy Girl activated
Kendra. Kendra's death activated Faith.
At that point, though most of the characters don't seem to realize
it, Buffy's death would no longer activate a new slayer. Only
Faith's would activate one of our many potentials.
Of course, nobody knows how it works now. Does a new potential
become activated at birth? Does each of the many slayers activated
in Chosen carry the lineage and bequeath her slayerness to a younger
potential upon her death?
We don't know. I'm looking forward to the fanfic on it.
[> Warning! Spoilers for *5.8* in this thread -- Ponygirl,
09:28:32 11/13/03 Thu
[> [> Re: Warning! Spoilers for *5.8* in this thread
-- aperitis, 09:06:19 11/14/03 Fri
well...it stands to reason that willows spell made all the potentials
very strong indeed...made them activated slayers...i THINK it
was stated on the show that now anyone who has the possibility
of becoming a slayer will be from birth...i dont think the lineage
of slayers matters anymore...what willow did was unprecedented
and threw the entire system out the window...buffy will never
be the only true slayer anymore...there are now hundreds, thounds....maybe
tens of thousands of slayers around the world..."true slayers"
in their own right because they have been bestowed with their
birthright not by someone else's death, but by their own birth.
buffy question (possible
spoiler) -- aperitis, 20:10:16 11/12/03 Wed
im very inquisitive...sorry if im getting on anyones nerves with
all the annoying posts...i was wondering, did they specify what
buffy and company are doing now that sunnydales gone? are they
tracking slayers somehow and training them? and if, as it has
been said, someone from the scoobs show up on angel, how would
they explain the rest not coming along? i mean, i thought they
were now like a tight knit family after destroying your hometown...u
know what i mean?...it'd be wierd if one of them showed up alone
at Wolfram and Hart...its like "one of you go alone to angel
and see whats happening"...it should be like "if one
goes we all go" (but i can see how an army of slayer-trainees
arriving at angel's doorstep would make things kooky)
Replies:
[> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler) -- luvthistle1,
22:47:43 11/12/03 Wed
...Well, Buffy and company are in Europe. they are probably staying
with Giles. I assume they are training the new slayer, considering
Giles is ( spoiler) is training Andrew. there has been no mention
of Xander, or Willow, but it's safe to say they are probably right
there with them.
[> [> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler) -- aperitis,
08:58:06 11/13/03 Thu
where did u hear that they are in europe? and dont u mean training
multiple slayers, not just one
[> [> [> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler)
-- angel's nibblet, 13:24:10 11/13/03 Thu
Angel told Spike that Buffy and co. were in Europe at the beginning
of Just Rewards, but he wasn't necessarily telling the truth.
[> [> [> [> Not quite.... (possible spoiler)
-- Briar Rose, 01:39:58 11/14/03 Fri
Angel mentioned that BUFFY was in Europe. No mention of the rest
of the SG.
It would stand to reason that Buffy can now enjoy life without
having to worry about all the evil of the world depending on her
alone to get rid of it. She now has Faith and the rest of the
newly empowered girls around the globe to do so as well.
As for training "The New Slayer", well for all intents
and purposes, they don't have to since there is no true "new"
Slayer, since Buffy is still alive and Faith is still alive.
What we have instead is many "empowered" girls - any
of which can save the world if she needed to. But the Slayer is
still Buffy and if Buffy is killed it will still be Faith and
down the line.
I know that's confusing, but it stands as cannon considering the
way that Joss Whedon started out Fray. That the "Last Slayer"
was last heard from in the 21st century. So as far as true "Slayers"
go? Buffy do be the last one, or Faith.... We'll have to see if
JW puts another card into play between now and the time when he
brings Fray into fourth dimension production.
[> [> [> Re: buffy question (possible spoiler)
-- luvthistle1, 02:08:23 11/14/03 Fri
Angel mention to Spike that Buffy was in europe. andrew mention
to Spike that Mr.Giles is training him. so we can assume that
Giles is also training others, ( or rather multiple slayers )
as well.
[> Note that this thread also contains vague *future* AtS
spoilers -- KdS, 04:05:52 11/14/03 Fri
God Bless Drew Goddard's
Past Referencing Heart (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Finn Mac Cool,
20:54:27 11/12/03 Wed
We now know that Wesley still remembers his relationship with
Lilah, her being killed by Cordelia, and apparently the existence
of Jasmine (as "higher power" would seem to imply).
People keep saying that Season 5 Wesley is a much different character
from the one we've seen developed, that Angel's mindwipe really
altered him. But now we see that Wesley remembers more than people
suspected he did. So, how do you explain it?
Well, the comments about Wesley's character being regressed revolve
around him not being "dark" and his pining over Fred.
However, his attraction for Fred never went away in Season 4;
it just had to be put aside since they were all too busy. As for
the darkness, until now we've barely seen Wesley in Season 5,
and the little we have seen doesn't rule out him still being dark;
after all, at the end of Season 4, he didn't seem any darker than
the other characters. That's just me talking, anyway. I'm still
of the belief that the memory wipe has allowed the characters
to retain their develop it and just develop a mental block when
trying to think about why.
Replies:
[> Re: Angel 5.7 - Now that's more like it! -- Ames,
21:41:47 11/12/03 Wed
Great episode. My only quibble is the trite way Fred's buddy from
Research (I forget his name, you know - Holden) walked in at just
the right time to interrupt Wesley's moment with her.
[> Confusion regarding Fred (Spoilers Angel 5.7) --
Scroll, 21:59:08 11/12/03 Wed
Caveat: I freely admit that I'm a huge Wes/Lilah fan, so I'm biased.
The Wes/Fred thing bugs the hell out of me. It's not Fred herself;
I'm rather enjoying her. But tonight's episode, much as I loved
it, only threw me into greater confusion regarding Wesley's memories
and personality. I'm willing to accept that my boy's in love/lust/unhealthy
obsession over Fred, but I'm still not so sure why.
Yes, Wesley still had some measure of interest in Fred in S4.
He even kissed her in "Soulless" and seemed to be flirting
with her in "Calvary". BUT -- not once do we see him
looking even the least bit interested after "Salvage",
and after Lilah's death. In fact, we see Wesley slowly realising
that Fred's stance on relationships and his are nowhere near being
in the same dimension. ("It's not always about holding hands.")
And as S4 wound to a close, we saw Wesley admit first to himself
and Lilah's ghost, to Gunn, then Angel, that he cared for Lilah
-- loved her, even. And though it was too late to save her life,
he tried to at least rescue her from hell ("Home").
Their final scene together in the W&H basement was poignant and
full of emotion. Maybe they never said the words, but I do think
they loved each other.
It's difficult for a Wes/Lilah lover like myself to reconcile
a Lilah-remembering Wesley with the Wes we've seen these past
few weeks. His Fred-crush is not the behaviour of a man
who only a month ago tried to save his dead lover from eternal
damnation. His fumbling attempts to show Fred his interest (prior
to this ep) harks back to early S3 more than the straightforward,
damn it all to hell attitude of S4. Which was all fine... as long
as we assumed Wesley couldn't remember Lilah.
Okay, okay. I'm not saying that a Lilah-remembering Wesley can't
possibly have a crush on Fred. I'm just really, really confused
as to why Wesley was even trying to pursue Fred. It all
boils down to what exactly Wesley remembers of S4, and how he
feels about S4. Which is kinda similar to what you're saying
about a memory wipe that allows for their past character development,
but fudges over the how and why of said development.
Ugh, I'm still very confused.
And I'm sure this post has bored you silly : ) Sorry, I just get
really passionate about Wesley and Lilah. Please, go ahead talk
about other things!
[> [> Wes + Lilah 4evah! (Spoilers Angel 5.7) --
Ponygirl, 22:14:56 11/12/03 Wed
I was wondering that myself. Do you think it's possible that Wesley
without access to the darkness that he contained last year is
not capable of loving Lilah to the same extent? Yet he's transferring
a lot of his feelings about Lilah and his failure to save her
to this obsession with Fred? It's fanwankage to be sure but I
agree with you that Wes' feelings for Fred are very different
than what we saw at the end of s4.
Still my L/W loving heart was glad of any mention.
[> [> [> Re: Wes + Lilah 4evah! (Spoilers Angel 5.7)
-- Tymen, 01:47:23 11/13/03 Thu
I don't believe that Wesley's feelings for Fred ever really changed.
He just hadn't chosen to act upon them. He hasn't been pursuing
her, as such. The last few times (in season 5) it's even come
up have been under extremely stressful or under the influence
of alcohol situations. Hell, even when he was with Lilah, he was
having feelings for Fred. Don't you recall the Lilah dresed as
Fred scene. That doesn't mean he didn't love Lilah, in just means
he had feelings for both of them and is a highly conflicted/complex
man.
[> [> [> [> I agree (Spoilers Angel 5.7) --
CW, 06:33:34 11/13/03 Thu
It's a mistake to think that because a guy moves on he necessarily
forgets everything he once felt for a lost love. With Lilah out
of the picture, it's not at all strange that his thoughts would
turn back to Fred.
[> [> [> [> [> Add to that the fact that...
(Spoilers Angel 4.22 and 5.7) -- Rob, 08:14:56 11/13/03
Thu
...he was able to gain some sense of closure with Lilah in "Home,"
so the last image he has of her is not chopping her head off.
He may not be happy that she is in Hell, but the two did reach
an understanding of sorts by the end of the episode.
I also believe that Wes was sexually attracted to and had an attachment
to Lilah but due to his moral compass that was at work even in
his darkest moments was never truly in love with her, whereas
Lilah was in love with him, despite herself, making his recovery
from his loss easier than had she lost him. In the end, he had
a problem with her morality, and yet she didn't have one with
his (she was never upset he was "good"; she worked around
it, whereas her evil was a problem for him).
Through all that, his love for Fred never went away. Even Jasmine
commented on it. What is more odd to me than Wesley pursuing Fred
again is the fact that Gunn has completely moved on, although
that kiss between them that yielded no sparkage near the end of
the season may have been closure enough for them.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Add to that the fact
that... (Spoilers Angel 4.22 and 5.7) -- Claudia, 09:07:27
11/13/03 Thu
Yeah, but I wish he would get over Fred. We've had to deal with
two years of Wes worshiping Fred from afar and it's getting boring.
And I know I have said this before, but I hope and pray that Wes
and Fred do not become a couple. Granted, Fred and Knox are boring
enough, but I really don't see a Wes/Fred relationship being any
more interesting.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Merciful Zeus! (Spoilers
Angel 4.22 and 5.7) -- Jay, 17:35:27 11/13/03 Thu
I think Lilah was in the middle of the scene that Robo-Wyndam
Pryce ate lead. Before he ever pointed the gun at Fred, Wes knew
he wasn't going to lose her like he lost Lilah. And even though
he wasn't physically there, he felt responsible for Lilah's safety.
Wes was the one who brought her back to the Hyperion and left
her alone with Cordy. Wes probably feels responsible for Cordy
despite the fact that it's been years since their disgusting flirtation.
On a separate note, I never saw the similarities that caused some
people to compare Wesley's looks with Pierce Brosnan. But in the
last two of the last three episodes, I saw instances of them.
Funny that it took me four years to see that.
[> [> [> [> [> [> What is the relationship
between a moral compass... -- Caroline, 09:33:03 11/13/03
Thu
and love? Can a moral compass truly prevent one falling in love
or does it happen irrationally, involunatarily, in spite of oneself?
Is love the blind, mischievous child shooting its arrows willy-nilly
or something that can be brought to the heel of morality and subdued?
Could Wes reason away or prevent his feelings for Lilah from progressing
due to his moral compass? If so, why couldn't she?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What is the relationship
between a moral compass... ("Salvage" spoilers)
-- Rob, 10:02:51 11/13/03 Thu
I think a great deal of it has to do with this bit of dialogue
from "Salvage":
LILAH: For all your supposed darkness, edge of the razor mystique,
(whispers in his ear) there was always a small part of you that
thought you could pull me back from the brink of my evil, evil
ways. Help me find redemption.
WESLEY: Redemption?
LILAH: (stands behind him with her hands on his shoulders) Angel's
influence, I suppose. The whole not giving up on someone, no matter
how far he-or she-has fallen. Oh, well. Too late for me. (Wes
stands) Let's just get it over with. That body's not gonna dismember
itself, you know.
WESLEY: (lifts the battle-axe) I'm sorry, Lilah.
I think that there was always a part of Wesley holding back from
completely loving Lilah due to his moral compass, but that same
moral compass always allowed him the hope that one day he could
help her reform as well. This was a complicated situation though
because, at the time, he was dark and not the poster boy for good
himself.
The thing it boils down to, I think, is that Wesley truly believes
in his moral compass, whereas Lilah didn't believe in evil,
so much as use it to further her own ends--career, money, affluence,
etc. For Wes, it's a true blow that the woman he might love is
evil, whereas Lilah doesn't feel inadequate because her lover
is good. She finds it kind of amusing, actually...something to
work around. Lilah basically gave up on having a moral compass
long ago, but she has no true allegiance to evil. She does whatever
works for her own self-preservation, even ally herself with the
good guys for a time in the fourth season. Lilah is an extreme
version of Dark Wes the same way Dark Wes is a lighter version
of Lilah--she is what he could become if he remains dark longer
and completely loses his humanity; he is what she could become
if she allowed herself a conscience. In that way, they complement
and mirror each other very nicely. Had Lilah lived she might have
finally been redeemed. We'll never know, but there were clear
signs that she was softening due to her relationship with Wes.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think they both loved
each other to a point, but Wes had a subconscious reason to not
give himself completely to her, whereas Lilah did not. Had she
truly believed in being evil, that would be a different story.
Sorry if the post was rambly or redundant in spots!
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What is
the relationship between a moral compass... ("Salvage"
spoilers) -- Claudia, 11:00:59 11/13/03 Thu
"So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think they both
loved each other to a point, but Wes had a subconscious reason
to not give himself completely to her, whereas Lilah did not."
Actually, it sounds as if Wesley allowed his moral compass not
to fully recognize his true feelings for Lilah. I don't think
that morality is a good reason on whether a person loves someone
or not. There's an old saying about we don't choose whom we fall
in love with.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thing
is, if someone's self-serving attitude and lack of respect for
human life repulses you . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:15:58
11/13/03 Thu
. . . then it's hard to develop feelings of love for them. For
someone with a moral compass that despises evil, someone who serves
evil naturally creates unpleasant emotions, such as hate, fear,
pity, or disgust, all of which work against love.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Moral
Compass and Emotions -- Claudia, 11:46:41 11/13/03 Thu
". . . then it's hard to develop feelings of love for them.
For someone with a moral compass that despises evil, someone who
serves evil naturally creates unpleasant emotions, such as hate,
fear, pity, or disgust, all of which work against love."
It's not that simple. People think that they can mix love with
morality. If you find that person's lifestyle repulsive, etc.,
sure you can make a choice on not to be a part of it. However,
to deny your feelings because of some moral compass . . . well,
it's really a bad idea. That does not strike me as really being
honest with yourself.
Angelus tried to be dishonest, but he failed. He could not deny
that whether souled or unsouled, he loved Buffy. Only, he could
not bear the fact and tried to destroy her. He only ended up destroying
himself.
Buffy tried to deny her feelings for Spike, because in her eyes,
he lacked a soul. He was a souless, evil thing. But in the end,
she couldn't.
And now, it seems that Wes is doing the same, in regard to his
feelings for Lilah. I can understand if he believed that he could
not stay with her and maintain his moral stance. But to deny his
true feelings for her? If he still has memories of his affair
with Lilah, in the end, he is only fooling himself on how he really
felt about her.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Moral Compass and Emotions -- CW, 12:35:10 11/13/03
Thu
It's not that simple. People think that they can mix love with
morality. If you find that person's lifestyle repulsive, etc.,
sure you can make a choice on not to be a part of it. However,
to deny your feelings because of some moral compass . . . well,
it's really a bad idea. That does not strike me as really being
honest with yourself.
I think the opposite. If you just let your emotions rule whatever
you do, you're flirting with disaster. Teenagers usually behave
that way, but they rarely have a sense of the future. If you can
see that someone you're really attracted to is impossibly wrong
for you because of their life style, getting into it further is
little better than playing Russian roulette with your own feelings.
Sooner or later you will lose.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Moral Compass and Emotions -- Claudia, 13:05:50
11/13/03 Thu
"I think the opposite. If you just let your emotions rule
whatever you do, you're flirting with disaster. Teenagers usually
behave that way, but they rarely have a sense of the future. If
you can see that someone you're really attracted to is impossibly
wrong for you because of their life style, getting into it further
is little better than playing Russian roulette with your own feelings.
Sooner or later you will lose."
I'm not suggesting that one simply allow one's emotions to rule.
What I'm suggesting that it is futile to simply base one's feelings
for another on morality. That person will end up fooling him or
herself. I think a person has to be honest about his or her feelings
toward another and decide if he/she is capable of being with that
person, despite any opposite view on morality. At least before
he/she makes a decision to stick with or reject that person.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Morality is an emotion, or at least involves them
-- Finn Mac Cool, 19:20:56 11/13/03 Thu
Morality certainly governs guilt, for example. If your morals
value helping people, doing so will make one feel proud. If one's
morality is really opposed to violence, the knowledge that people
are being hurt can make them feel either anger or pity. If morality
can govern all these emotions and more, I don't see why it doesn't
play a part in whether we love or not.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> I agree, but... (spoilers) -- Scroll, 14:20:58
11/13/03 Thu
I agree that we shouldn't recklessly allow emotions to rule our
decisions, especially in regards to something as important as
who we choose as our significant others.
I saw Wesley's decision to break up with Lilah in "Habeas
Corpses" to be based largely on what you describe here: If
you can see that someone you're really attracted to is impossibly
wrong for you because of their life style, getting into it further
is little better than playing Russian roulette with your own feelings.
Sooner or later you will lose.
Wesley made the choice to break it off before either he or Lilah
could get any deeper, or any more hurt. Unfortunately, I do believe
that Lilah's feelings for Wesley were already beyond anything
"rational". The break-up clearly wasn't mutual. And
Wesley, for all his rational and moral decision-making (and yes,
I do agree with his decision to break-up with Lilah, as much as
I love the pairing), was a lot more emotionally involved than
he ever admitted to himself until it was too late and Lilah was
already dead.
So while it is much better that a good person not compromise their
morality by ignoring or pretending to ignore the evil doings/morality
of their partner, I think even "good" people like Buffy
and Wesley can be lonely and reckless enough to get involved with
morally "grey" people like Spike and Lilah, and have
emotions speak louder than reason.
And while I think it's safer for me not to speak of Buffy/Spike,
I truly believe that Wesley loved Lilah almost as much as she
loved him, though sadly he never realised it until it was too
late. Which is why I'm having such a difficult time accepting
Wesley's interest in Fred. It seems too soon for him to move on.
Granted we haven't really seen much of Wesley before this episode,
but I find it difficult to accept because we don't have any evidence
that Wesley thinks of Lilah at all. His line about his last girlfriend
was spoken so flippantly. (Again, it could just be me and the
significance I place on Wes/Lilah.) Anyway, just my opinion :
)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What is
the relationship between a moral compass... ("Salvage"
spoilers) -- Caroline, 19:32:08 11/13/03 Thu
Wes believing that he can save Lilah says something about his
compassion and is an expression of his morality, certainly. But
since when does reason rule emotion? Wes may have held himself
back from her for all sorts of good reasons - lack of trust is
a really good one - but that does not preclude any love for her
on his part. One can be in love and hold back. If you were to
tell me that he was in love with Fred or give me some other reason
for why he couldn't love Lilah, I would give it the benefit of
the doubt but if you are trying to tell me that reason could change
emotion, I gotta disagree. Reason may rule action (witness Wes
trying to save Lilah) but reason couldn't prevent him from getting
involved with her or from feeling something for her when he did.
He may not have fallen in love with her but morality had little
to do with it - that's not what led him down the path with Lilah.
It was something much more complicated and irrational.
[> Boooiiiinnnngggg!!!! (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Darby,
06:14:15 11/13/03 Thu
My personal theory is that the mindwipe is more of a misdirect
- a push to just not think about certain things, with Connor being
the focus and therefore the thing closest to impossible to remember.
A side effect has been a bit of regression in the characters,
but their developed personae are in there scratching to get out,
and once out, the spell will be weakened - we're gradually working
toward a confrontation over this.
Fred, forced into running a department, was the first to regain
the tough-as-nails chippee she became through Season 4. Gunn has
picked up some of the suave he got last year, but since
it could be part of W&H's enhancements he hasn't really taken
a hard look at it. Lorne has lost his way as Angel's true conscience
(and he's got the skills to possibly sense the mind adjustments),
but he's mightily distracted, as Life of the Party showed.
Wes, who went through perhaps the biggest changes, has had the
most difficult, erratic recovery, mostly through forced events
- would he have remembered Lilah and the circumstances of her
death in a less emotionally-charged situation, and is this why
Ghost Lilah has been kept away from him? - but he has to
come along the most slowly, because he's the one most likely to
get an inkling of what's going on.
I think we're seeing that Angel needs his crew, his evolved crew,
around him to be truly effective, and Wes is a key element - while
they all redevelop, he is stagnant.
On another note, I really like how Wes takes no solace in the
Daddy-was-a-Cyborg excuse. Was I the only one who was curious
about Dark Wes' reaction to his next Daddy-Dearest encounter-?
His willingness to fully accept, if not embrace, his take-no-more-crap
dark side is a key part of the character ME has spent several
years developing.
[> [> Addendum (Spoilers Angel 5.7) -- Darby, 07:31:48
11/13/03 Thu
How many times have we watched movies / shows and been screaming,
"SHOOT him already, before he [fill in action here]!"
The episode was quality television if only for that image.
It was an action that, unfortunately, Wesley absolutely believes
his father could have made as well. I think that this is the realization
that was eating at him at the end.
[> [> [> Re: Addendum (Spoilers Angel 5.7) --
Rob, 08:21:13 11/13/03 Thu
It was an action that, unfortunately, Wesley absolutely believes
his father could have made as well. I think that this is the realization
that was eating at him at the end.
And that's what keeps the ending from being a cop-out. On a lesser
show, realizing that he had only killed a robot who was pretending
to be his father would have been a huge relief to the character.
But Wes is just as disturbed by his actions as if he had killed
his own father, and does not let himself off the hook. In many
ways, it reminds me of Wes at the end of "Billy," which
also ended on a scene with Fred that Wes leaves feeling completely
uncomforted and uneasy.
Rob
[> [> Re: Boooiiiinnnngggg!!!! (Spoilers Angel 5.7)
-- leslie, 09:37:20 11/13/03 Thu
"On another note, I really like how Wes takes no solace in
the Daddy-was-a-Cyborg excuse."
Even more, I liked how, when he shot his "father," the
feeling I got was not so much someone forcing himself to do something
because he had to (which was how his father was reading the situation
up to that point) so much as, now he finally had an excuse to
do what he had wanted to do all along. I think ultimately that
is why he sent Fred away at the end--Wes is self-aware enough
to know that he did really want to kill his father and she simply
provided a strong enough excuse for him to do it.
[> [> [> I thought the same thing. -- CW, 12:48:13
11/13/03 Thu
[> [> [> Maybe the prophesy was "the son will
kill the father"? -- jane, 22:40:02 11/13/03 Thu
[> Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec)
-- Masq, 07:20:38 11/13/03 Thu
I don't think many have claimed that Wesley has been completely
reverted back to early season 3. He seems more a mixture of that
and season 4 Wesley: "pre-Billy" Wesley with an edge.
A semi-awkward book-guy with beard stubble and guns.
Wesley apparently does remember the key events of season 4--the
Beast, Jasmine, his relationship with Lilah, just with the Conner-y
bits removed.
But does he lie awake at night thinking about Lilah and wondering
what he could have done differently to save her, to help her?
Does his mind travel back to when they first started their dance
together, wondering how he ever got involved with her in the first
place? And if he does, what are his conclusions? There is a big
gap there, and it is smack in the middle of season 3--he doesn't
remember how he got estranged from the gang in the first place--he
doesn't remember taking Connor. Or if he remembers something,
he remembers it differently.
One thing is certain. Wesley's issues with an unloving, critical
father go back way before season 3. That's old and it's real and
it has informed who he is. And another thing is clear--Wesley
had ruthless tendencies in the cause of Good long before the end
of season 3 of AtS. His willingness to sacrifice Willow in "Choices"
(season 3 of BtVS) was early evidence of this.
So in "Lineage", seeing the man he thought was his father
brought out something primal in Wesley that, coupled with what
he does remember of seasons 3 and 4 turned him patricidal.
In a moment of "do something, but make a choice", he
chose to kill his father, and after he pulled the trigger once,
he went into a kind of over-kill that speaks of long held-in feelings
of rage.
So I still can't let go of the theory that in some ways, the Wesley
we see now is a mixture of early season 3 Wesley and season 4
Wesley. And just as we were speculating that his dorky, inhibited
reaction to Fred in "Life of the Party" seemed pre-"Billy",
this latest episode, "Lineage" was his season
5 "Billy".
He did something dark and he did it based on feelings that are
still in him from seasons 3 and 4, whether he remembers their
origins or not, and he did it based on the primal urges his bitter
feelings towards his father bring out in him. He was devastated
at his behavior, and like in Billy, when Fred assured him it "wasn't
really him" (or in this case, "you knew it really wasn't
your father"), Wesley doesn't quite believe her.
Then, he starts to do something that is distinctly not season
3-Wesley-like. He begins to open up to Fred, reveal his feelings
for her, and just then, Knox appears. The obstacle Wesley can
either hide his feelings behind again or not.
So perhaps Wesley will hide his feelings once again, isolating
himself from the others until some season 5-ish version of his
kidnapping of Connor in season 3 (spoken about at length in "Lineage")
is replayed.
[> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled
spec) -- Rob, 08:25:28 11/13/03 Thu
In a moment of "do something, but make a choice",
he chose to kill his father, and after he pulled the trigger once,
he went into a kind of over-kill that speaks of long held-in feelings
of rage.
I wonder if it's also meant to be significant that the action
Wesley takes in this episode is the exact opposite of the prophecy
that first caused the rift between Wes and Angel in the first
place, leading to "Dark Wes", his relationship with
Lilah, etc.
Rob
[> [> [> Oh, I know... (5.7 spoilers) -- Masq,
09:08:43 11/13/03 Thu
I was like, "Hey, look, the son will kill the father".
Sort of.
[> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled
spec) -- Seven, 09:02:35 11/13/03 Thu
Masq,
This early analysis is right on. Wes' actions have, until this
episode, been showing many characteristics of season 3 Wes. But
under the surface is season 4 Wes.
His willingness to kill Fries
His physical appearance
His gun use
The reason the season 3 traits are so appearent is because we
were looking for them. They were also more of a focus in the show.
I too have thought that since some of the gang's memory has been
lost, they will soon "re-do" the events that they are
missing--albiet in some different fasion. It was instantly recognizable
that Wes has relived his "Billy" experiance but I thought
about it early on when Fred was injured in the teaser. He likely
brought Fred because he wanted an excuse to be around her. That
decision got her hurt, even if that perspective makes her feel
weak and patronized. Wes feels this was his fault, not the fault
of outside forces (the cyborgs) just as he thought his actions
in Billy were his fault and not Billy's.
Eve even foreshadow's Wes' inevitable betraying of Angel when
she says, "You're worried he will betray you again, even
if he doesn't remember the first time." (or something close
to that.)
What she should have said was "You're worried that he will
betray you again for the first time" It is
possible that Angel is starting to worry that his actions concerning
the mind-wipe will start to play out, which they are.
Also to note is that Wes' season 4 side has emerged when it has
to. When circumstances call for physical combat or other things
that he has already overcome his inadequaces in, he either remembers
that he can do it or it comes naturally. While he may remember
his sexcapades with Lilah, he also remembers that his ability
to pursue a real relationship was a failure. He doesn't want to
just (pardon the term, but) "fuck" Fred, he wants a
relationship and that is a hurdle in his life that he has not
overcome yet, mind-wipe or not. So his inability to talk to Fred
about the relationship is still a problem. Knox keeps getting
in the way (just as Gunn did) and this keeps him from growing.
It is not until Wes is forced to do something, when the fight
is already lost, that he is able to see the correct answer and
change his mode of behavior to suit what needs to be done. This
is why Dark! or post betrayal Wes is so focused and capable, because
his back is constantly against the wall and he doesn't care about
the consequences. With Fred, he analyizes every word he says and
every action and inaction that the does, making him never do what
he wants.
Whew, uhm, i went on a little longer than i thought i would, but
also i must note that I believe Fred's Iamwomanhearmeroar perspective
will soon be a focus of her arc. She wants to be the opposite
of what she was when the gang found her in Pylea. Go back to our
first bookend of this season to the line "I'm more of a run
away from danger girl" and Knox saying he finds that hard
to believe. She will clearly be developing her dark side soon,
only because she may be forced to with so much testosterone fueling
the male dominated offices of W&H.
[> [> [> Yeah, they're building up to something...
(spoilers 5.7) -- Masq, 09:54:04 11/13/03 Thu
with Fred. Repeated references to her being a woman, repeated
repeated repeated references to her being patronized and occasionally
insulted. She doesn't like it, and she's not early season 3 Fred
by a long shot.
But this is where I start having problems. When did Fred really
change and grow as a fighter and not just "the brain"?
A lot of it started in the summer of '02, when they didn't have
Angel around because he was sunk to the bottom of the ocean by
he-who-shall-not-be-named. What does Fred remember about that?
And we have Dark Wesley still, and he remembers much of season
4, but what does he remember of season 3? That was such a Connor-centric
season. Every episode centered around either Connor as unborn
mystery child, Connor as baby or Connor as teenager. The event
that set Wesley on his dark track and into Lilah's arms is All.About.Connor.
Wesley must spend time wondering how he got to be as dark as he
is now, how he got involved with Lilah. What does he think about
in those moments? Does he have an alternate set of memories?
M.E. NEEDS to explain themselves on what each member of the fang
gang know about how they got to be the way they are, especially
Wesley, and some time soon.
[> [> [> [> I think they did. Speculation post-Lineage,
no future Spoilers -- Arethusa, 10:36:01 11/13/03 Thu
(If someone's already said this, please forgive.) Wes said his
girlfriend was killed by a higher power-Cordelia. ME's
plan was to have Cordelia go bad so Angel would have to battle
someone he loved, and I think Cordelia was never meant to come
back from her evilness. But Carpenter became pregnant, so Jasmine
was added. ME might just be going with their original plot--Cordy
goes evil and wackiness ensues. Pehaps Wes was meant to team up
with W&H behind Angel's back to fight Cordelia, which would set
up a similar path of betrayal and sweaty naughtiness with Lilah.
I agree about Fred. I also think it's interesting that Angel is
still dealing with the issue of free will this year. He's afraid
he's being controlled by W&H and two baddies managed to physically
control him.
[> [> [> [> [> I noticed that too (5.7 spoilers)
-- Masq, 10:43:13 11/13/03 Thu
They were deliberately vague in that sentence. They said "woman"
or "girlfriend" or whatever instead of "Lilah".
They said "Higher Power" instead of "Cordelia"
(or "Jasmine" for that matter).
I just wish they were a little more specific on how Wesley
remembers the events of season 4 unfolding.
Better yet, I just wish they were a little more specific on how
Wesley remembers the events of season 3 unfolding!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: specificity and memories
(5.7 spoilers) -- leslie, 10:58:10 11/13/03 Thu
I think the reason they are not being specific is precisely to
arouse this kind of fevered discussion among the already-established
faithful. Every week there's a little drop of information about
the mind-wipe; there are hints that something's a brewin' with
Fred and her womanliness; Spike's acting erratic and what's up
with that... ME can't do the kind of intense arc that would have
had all of that taken care of in 15 minutes and on to the next
trauma, so they're taking the slow, let's-torture-the-fans approach.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Speaking of the next
trauma... Spoilers for all episodes this season. -- Arethusa,
11:05:36 11/13/03 Thu
Am I the only one missing all the AtS angst and trauma? I keep
waiting for the other shoe to drop-that if this were last year,
Wes would have really killed his father, Angel would have gotten
Eve pregnant with an evil love-child and given up any hope of
Shanshu redemption, and Hulk Lorne would have killed the entire
staff of Fox Studios at the office party. (And you just know
they were there, in all their evil glory.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You and me
both, Arethusa -- Masq, 11:24:52 11/13/03 Thu
I was thinking about this last night during my usual post-AtS
insomnia. This season seems... shallow for some reason. Without
its usual depths. And then I realized the reason. It's not just
the memory wipe. It's the general lightness of the eps. Too monster
of the week, things get resolved. Too light considering the situation
they're in (working for the bad guys? I mean, c'mon, there should
be moral angst abounding!).
Then Rufus' spoilerific warning pops in my head. "You want
angst, Masq? You just wait!"
And I am reassured. The sturm and drang that is AtS at its finest
will emerge from this fluffy bunny AtS.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You
and me both, Arethusa -- Rob, 12:02:21 11/13/03 Thu
Too monster of the week, things get resolved. Too light considering
the situation they're in (working for the bad guys? I mean, c'mon,
there should be moral angst abounding!).
The end of the past two episodes, though, I think hold good signs
for future angst. The fact that Wes didn't really kill his father
was little relief to him, and both Angel and then Wes in the last
moments of the past two episodes seemed uneasy and pensive. So
while the plot of the episode was tied up by the end, there is
some emotional stuff still dangling.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah,
I wasn't kidding about angst either......<g>....;) --
Rufus, 04:19:22 11/14/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I don't
know... -- Philistine, 19:44:27 11/13/03 Thu
I like that ME seem to have regained their sense of fun. The past
year and a half or so of Angel - essentially Connor's entire run
on the show - was so brutally, relentlessly down that it got to
be almost unwatchable. All Angst All The Time is not only less
entertaining, it's also less effective. Not that I'm anti-angst,
but for Cthulhu's sake let me occasionally see the characters
having fun: give me a standard of comparison... and a reason to
care.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And it's working!
-- Masq, 11:19:13 11/13/03 Thu
Every week there's a little drop of information about the mind-wipe
...so they're taking the slow, let's-torture-the-fans approach.
As a long-time faithful fan and memory wipe obsessive personality,
it is torture, but at the same time, it's reassuring. Every ep
has some hint or other, more subtle in earlier episodes than it
is now. I was very cynical about how they would handle the memory
wipe over the summer. Now I'm chomping at the bit for how it will
unravel.
But patience isn't one of my virtues. ; )
[> [> [> [> [> [> Heh! -- Arethusa, 11:00:02
11/13/03 Thu
I wonder how everyone will feel if/when they do get their memories
back. Would they want to remember that Wes stole Connor,
Angel tried to kill Wes and did kill Connor, and Gunn and Fred
killed Seidel? In Tabula Rasa and Spin the Bottle, everyone was
burdened by their returned memories, and not happy to remember
their recent past.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Gunn and Fred
-- Masq, 11:10:18 11/13/03 Thu
I've been a bit miffed by Gunn and Fred's blase attitude towards
each other this season. They act like they never had a thing.
Which could be explained by the memory wipe, but after Wesley's
revealing how much of season 4 he does remember, I'm wondering
how much Gunn and Fred remember of their romance. Fred calls Gunn
"Charles", a habit she picked up when they were dating.
And I'm not at all convinced Fred and Gunn don't remember the
Seidel incident. After all, it had nothing to do with Connor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good point.
-- Arethusa, 11:28:53 11/13/03 Thu
Perhaps Fred never would have got around to writing her paper
on supersymmetry if Angel hadn't been sunk in the ocean-but that's
admittedly a bit thin. Would Fred be so defensive regarding her
fighting abilities if she remembered attempting to kill Seidel?
But as you say Gunn and Fred are very casual around each other.
And Gunn expressed admiration for Fred's brains, while last year
he was afraid he wasn't smart or educated enough for her. OTOH,
the fact that he did let W&H tinker with his brain to become more
educated shows he was still insecure about his intelligence, although
this could have little to do with Fred directly.
Aaargh!!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Gunn's
brain -- Masq, 13:59:43 11/13/03 Thu
OTOH, the fact that he did let W&H tinker with his brain to
become more educated shows he was still insecure about his intelligence,
although this could have little to do with Fred directly.
I don't think Gunn has ever been insecure about his intelligence.
It's his level of education and the kind of work he has had to
do that's the issue for him. He knows he has brains, but given
his life circumstances, he never got a chance to use that potential
until now.
Fred's life circumstances allowed her to attend college and graduate
school, something Gunn was perfectly capable of doing but didn't
get to do. Fred also at the same time is off-the-chart smarter
than your average grad student, but Gunn never felt the need to
compete with that. He just wanted to be acknowledged for being
as smart as he in fact is, and he wasn't getting credit for even
that being "the muscle".
Wolfram and Hart's offer of instant knowledge had to seem like
the offer of a lifetime to Gunn, the chance to make up for (probably)
dropping out of grade school and (definitely) not going to college.
Wolfram and Hart couldn't give Gunn more intelligence than he
already has (well, maybe they could, but they didn't), they just
gave him more knowledge than he has. Which any decent college
and law school would also have been able to do if Gunn had been
able to fork over the tuition.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Gunn's brain -- Arethusa, 19:23:11 11/13/03 Thu
I agree with you about his education. But I also think he did
feel self-conscious about his intelligence. In Supersymmetry he
felt left behind. "If she thinks we're both stupid, I won't
stand out as much," he said to Angel during Fred's lecture.
Gunn seemed to think Wes was smarter than he, and that Fred would
prefer the smarter man, something Angelus later taunts him with
repeatedly. By Long Day's Journey he is openly jealous and hostile
to Wes. And in his conversations with Gwen and Angelus he seems
to think Fred left him for Wes.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But...
-- KdS, 04:23:51 11/14/03 Fri
It's possible that without Connor Wes didn't become quite so estranged
from the gang in general, or so morally defeatist, in early S4
and didn't give Fred the magical info to kill Seidel. Seidel might
still have ended up dead, but the manner of it and the distribution
of responsibility for it might have been very different.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes!! (spoilers for "Home"
and "Lineage") -- Rob, 12:05:18 11/13/03 Thu
I am going crazy trying to figure out if the "girlfriend"
he chopped into little bits was in fact, in his memory, Lilah
or not. Does he even remember going out with Lilah now? We have
not seen them interact since Angel "killed" Connor.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes!! (spoilers
for "Home" and "Lineage") -- leslie, 13:38:30
11/13/03 Thu
Yes--my first thought, being in the "they don't remember
last season" mode, was that he was remembering an alternate
ending to his relationship with Virginia (wasn't that her name?
The red-head?).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Me, too!!
-- Rob, 13:42:08 11/13/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, except
(little 5.7 spoilers) -- Masq, 14:27:12 11/13/03 Thu
He broke up with Virginia in the middle of Season 2 ("Reprise",
I think, episode 2.15), and his memories should all be in tact
up until the middle of "Offspring" (ep 3.07), if they
are purely Connor-related.
They don't say "Lilah", which is telling, but it seems
to me it has to be Lilah. But that creates real problems, namely,
"Now how did I get involved with this (albeit hot) evil lawyer
to begin with?"
ME! You have got some 'splaining to do!
[> [> But . . . -- Claudia, 09:21:54 11/13/03
Thu
"Wesley apparently does remember the key events of season
4--the Beast, Jasmine, his relationship with Lilah, just with
the Conner-y bits removed."
But how can that be? It was due to Connor's existence in the first
place, that led to Wesley's affair with Lilah. If he doesn't have
memories of Connor, how could he have memories of his affair with
Lilah?
[> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled
spec) -- Caroline, 09:50:51 11/13/03 Thu
I think you hit on some really important points about Wes. I personally
feel that what Wes remembers will be key to not only my continued
enjoyment of the show but also to the plotline this year. And
since his relationship with his father informs so much of his
relationship with Angel, it was great to see them tie it all together.
I think we may be getting into some old Shakespearean appearance/reality
themes happening here - while everyone's memories are suppressed,
who they are is not suppressed and it seems as though some of
the same mistakes that were made and not remembered in the past
may occur once again.
What I am also concerned about is the impact Wes' relationship
with his father has had on his personal relationships. The power
imbalance inherent in their relationship has not been resolved
and the unresolved rage has resulted in Wes only being able to
sustain relationships with a huge power imbalance. There is his
feelings for Fred, which result in her being put up on a pedestal
and Wes' worship from afar and there is Lilah (and maybe Justine)
which is based on cruelty. Wes belittles Lilah but the beauty
of their relationship was that I saw Wes' humanity and compassion
coming through, particularly at the darkest moments, where he
realizes what he is doing. With Lilah gone, Wes has gone back
to worshipping Fred. He was making progress in resolving the darkness
within himself in a way (I felt) that was not destructive personally.
With Fred, I don't feel that is the case - his feelings for her
and his view of her is too extreme. He has killed his father for
her (not literally but you know what I mean) and he now has to
deal with the gravity of that issue. I hope that Wes can resolve
those feelings and 'kill' the internalized father and come through
this without huge personal loss.
[> [> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers and unspoiled
spec) -- Masq, 10:36:39 11/13/03 Thu
I personally feel that what Wes remembers will be key to not
only my continued enjoyment of the show but also to the plotline
this year.
Absolutely agree. I was a basket case this summer because of my
fears about what the memory wipe might do to Wesley's personality.
I agree that while they don't remember the events themselves,
the emotional impact of the events is still there. The physical
scar left by Justine is gone, but the psychological scars remain.
I think Wesley's renewed attachment to Fred isn't really about
Fred. It's about Fred being an "anti-Lilah" of a sort.
Wesley feels he failed Lilah morally, but he has assumed that
he doesn't have to worry that he will fail Fred. She is good and
pure, at least in his eyes. Then he "lets" her get wounded,
and he "kills" his father for her. Big-time guilt and
over compensation that is more about Wesley and his relationship
with his father and his relationship with Lilah than it is his
relationship with Fred.
I mean, let's face it. Wesley has a hard time seeing the real
Fred. He can pay lip-service to how much she's grown and changed
in her self-confidence and her own darkness, but he still wants
his little anti-Lilah.
[> [> [> [> Re: Concerning Wesley (5.7 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Claudia, 11:58:16 11/13/03 Thu
"I think Wesley's renewed attachment to Fred isn't really
about Fred. It's about Fred being an "anti-Lilah" of
a sort. Wesley feels he failed Lilah morally, but he has assumed
that he doesn't have to worry that he will fail Fred. She is good
and pure, at least in his eyes. Then he "lets" her get
wounded, and he "kills" his father for her. Big-time
guilt and over compensation that is more about Wesley and his
relationship with his father and his relationship with Lilah than
it is his relationship with Fred."
Yeah, but if Connor had never existed in his mind, how did Wesley
remember his affair with Lilah in the first place?
[> [> [> [> [> We just don't know (5.7 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Scroll, 14:44:53 11/13/03 Thu
Yeah, but if Connor had never existed in his mind, how did
Wesley remember his affair with Lilah in the first place?
We're just going to have to wait and see. I'm as eager as the
next person for more to be revealed about the Connor mind-wipe.
I want to know what exactly Wesley remembers, and how he feels
about it. I want to know where/who Connor is right now, and what
exactly were the ramifications of the reality/memory altering
spell that W&H did to make Connor "happy". And my little
Wes/Lilah loving heart would love to know how much Wesley
remembers about Lilah and their affair, and how it all started
and how it ended, and the whole shebang. But we just don't have
enough information at this time to know for sure. We can only
speculate.
But I have to think that this is what ME wants: fans speculating,
trying to figure it all out, anxious for more. Joss will tell
us when he's good and ready to tell us.
My personal speculation? Wesley remembers the events of Seasons
3 and 4, knows all the details -- save Connor. Everything happened
the way we saw it on screen, but no Connor. And when Wesley tries
to think back about why he made the decisions he made, his motivations,
something will stop him from understanding himself -- rather like
the Glory/Ben spell that kept the Scoobies from truly understanding
that Glory and Ben were the same person. So Wesley knows he had
an affair with Lilah, he just doesn't really know why, and his
mind won't really let him figure it out. It's easier just to focus
on Fred.
And I think I subscribe to Finn and Masq's theory that the emotional
developments of S3-4 are there, even though the physical evidence
and some of the facts have become blurred, or even disappeared
altogether.
Claudia, what do you think?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We just don't know
(5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- RadiusRS, 15:57:49
11/13/03 Thu
My thinking is that the last scene, rather than a rehash of the
scene from a few seasons ago, cemented the Dark Wes persona for
the longtime fans while showing the newer fans the existence of
this side of Wes. I believe Wes didn't give up on Fred because
he was scared of his feelings for her, but because he realized
he HAS become too dark for her. And if the mindwipe erased his
memory of the Connor betrayal, then it stands to reason that he
doesn't remember getting darker, and therefore Fred never went
to him for help against Seidel, a truly Dark Wesley action. Perhaps
his feelings for Fred have caused a short circuit as, in this
episode, he realizes that he is much darker and ruthless than
he thought and than he has acted for most of this season. Maybe
when he sees Knox (who is admittedly Evil Lite), he decides he
is too dark for Fred (once again making decisions for her and
patronizing her by not allowing HER to choose, a major Fred-theme
from last season) so he lets her go, and goes to call his father,
perhaps because he's realized that the only way to stem the darkness
in him is to make sure he has SOME relationship with dear old
Dad and try to reconnect.
I do wish that they'd give the Spike vs. Angel for the humanity
prize Shanshu thing more than a couple minutes an ep as it feels
kind of forced into the episodes. I also wish they'd be a bit
more direct about the mindwipe like they were last episode when
Angel slipped up in front of Wes.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We just don't know
(5.7 spoilers and unspoiled spec) -- Claudia, 16:19:48
11/13/03 Thu
"My personal speculation? Wesley remembers the events of
Seasons 3 and 4, knows all the details -- save Connor. Everything
happened the way we saw it on screen, but no Connor. And when
Wesley tries to think back about why he made the decisions he
made, his motivations, something will stop him from understanding
himself -- rather like the Glory/Ben spell that kept the Scoobies
from truly understanding that Glory and Ben were the same person.
So Wesley knows he had an affair with Lilah, he just doesn't really
know why, and his mind won't really let him figure it out. It's
easier just to focus on Fred.
And I think I subscribe to Finn and Masq's theory that the emotional
developments of S3-4 are there, even though the physical evidence
and some of the facts have become blurred, or even disappeared
altogether.
Claudia, what do you think?"
I think you may be right. I only hope that ME doesn't disappoint
us in this regard. Although to be honest, I would have preferred
if Wesley had not remembered his affair with Lilah, following
the mindwipe. It would have been interesting to note his reaction,
once he did remember.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed (5.7 spoilers
and unspoiled spec) -- Scroll, 16:34:35 11/13/03 Thu
Although to be honest, I would have preferred if Wesley had
not remembered his affair with Lilah, following the mindwipe.
It would have been interesting to note his reaction, once he did
remember.
I have to agree with you here, that's for sure. Glad as I am that
Lilah will be mentioned and dealt with, I think it would've
made a greater dramatic impact if ME had Wesley lose all memory
of his affair with Lilah, and then when/if the big reveal came
about, suddenly remember and have to deal with his feelings and
the consequences of Angel's decisions on screen where we fans
could watch and sympathise and understand. Right now, all that's
happened with the Lilah mention is that we're even more confused
than before.
[> [> [> [> Memories: False, Real, and Computed
-- dmw, 18:11:58 11/13/03 Thu
Absolutely agree. I was a basket case this summer because
of my fears about what the memory wipe might do to Wesley's personality.
I agree that while they don't remember the events themselves,
the emotional impact of the events is still there. The physical
scar left by Justine is gone, but the psychological scars remain.
I think you're right about the emotional impact of forgotten events
remaining, but I'm curious as to the means through which that
happened--does Wesley recall a different reason for leaving the
group and taking up with Lilah? While our past consists more of
gaps than memory, the important events and decisions are remembered,
and if there's not something to explain those decisions and events,
the illusion will unravel rapidly. And is the physical scar from
Justine gone, or is it present and he remembers its source differently?
Whatever the explanation, I'm very glad they've brought it up
and hopefully will continue with it. I'm also curious about the
origin of the cyborgs. I doubt they're actually from a reforming
CoW, but since they were supposedly fighting evil before arriving
in LA, who did create them and where do their memories come from,
especially those all too accurate ones about Wesley from the supposedly
destroyed CoW records?
[> [> [> [> [> I'm leaning to the Finn Mac Cool/Scroll
theory (unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 18:52:20 11/13/03 Thu
That there are holes in their memories where the Connor-events
should go, but every time they start thinking about them, their
minds do a Ben/Glory thing where they just stop thinking about
it. Much in the way the Scooby gang forgot that Ben was Glory
as soon as they learned it, the Fang gang can't linger too long
on, "what's wrong with the missing bits in my memory?"
without their minds wandering to other things.
[> [> [> [> [> I'm leaning to the Finn Mac Cool/Scroll
theory (unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 19:00:41 11/13/03 Thu
That there are holes in their memories where the Connor-events
should go, but every time they start thinking about them, their
minds do a Ben/Glory thing where they just stop thinking about
it. Much in the way the Scooby gang forgot that Ben was Glory
as soon as they learned it, the Fang gang can't linger too long
on, "what's wrong with the missing bits in my memory?"
without their minds wandering to other things.
Dear Drew (spoilers 5.7)
-- Ponygirl, 21:56:29 11/12/03 Wed
Hi Drew!
How've you been? I can't believe it's been since LMPTM that I've
last seen your name in the "written by" credits (though
you certainly did remind us of that ep. didn't you? heh!). Hope
you had a great summer.
Anyhoo just saw Lineage and yay! When I heard about this ep. I
was excited to see if you could do for Wesley what you did for
Anya in Selfless, but I had to admit the "cyborg-ninja-assasins"
thing gave me pause. Sorry to doubt, even though they looked like
they had coffee cans over their faces, the idea had a certain
icky poignancy - these robots were more human than not.
I gotta tell you though Drew, exposition is not your strong suit.
The Eve/Angel scene was clunkier than last year's heels, and Wes'
scene on the roof felt too long in places. The totally unnecessary
flashback to Rodger smuggling in the gun was most likely a director's
choice so not blaming you.
Rodger's unexpected mechanical condition felt like a cop-out at
first but I thought about it and I agree that it would have been
too heavy a plot point to hit this early in the year. I'm intrigued
but still wary about this introduction of an outside element of
new good/bad guys, I'm leery of you guys setting up oodles of
internal conflict then in the end pulling in something tangible
to pummel. It's probably just season 7 talking. I'm over it, really.
Sort of.
But enough about the bad, I'm writing to send out the love and
plenty of it.
First of all a cherry-covered Lorne is on his way to your office
as a thank you for the Spike dialogue. It was hysterically funny
but even better it involved him interacting with the others. Then
there was the scene in the elevator with Eve which had the effect
of giving a sudden hard outline to both characters - something
that had been sorely lacking for a while. I agree with Eve that
there's more to Spike's snarky spirit act than meets the eye.
The Pavayne line was funny as hell but it showed just how much
fear is beneath the surface. A vampire who's afraid of the dark?
Who'd have thought? Still not liking Eve but keeping an open mind.
Actually the Eve/Angel/Wes scene while not high on my rewind list
still made me notice how Angel seemed to be speaking Wesley's
darker thoughts, while Eve spoke Angel's. Everybody is playing
the devil on the shoulder to someone else.
And yes, Wesley. Was it wrong that what I loved best was the return
of dead-eyed Wesley, unhesitantly emptying his gun into his father?
From the teaser on we'd been seeing Wes trying to slip back into
his darker persona, but neo-noirWes can't get the assurance and
ruthlessness down. Until that moment. That darkness is still in
him to an extent that he most likely was not aware. What's he
going to do with the knowledge of what's inside?
I'm not crazy about the use of Fred as Wes' prime motivation,
but I do appreciate how his feelings for her have been consistently
shown to be unhealthy and unreturned. Fred was right to invoke
the parent/child dynamic in Wes' behaviour, icky though that may
be.
Interesting that the daddy Wes ended up proving himself to was
Angel. Though with all the people in the office who've killed
their parents, paternal is a label Angel would be wise to avoid.
In fact after this episode Wes may find prophecies about a father
killing a son a refreshing change of pace.
Getting late but a few random bits:
- So Wes remembers Lilah's death and his go go gadget arm? What
else does he remember from last year? Drew you're such a tease!
- Another M.C. Escher remark.
- And another Harry Potter reference! Was Percy Head Boy in Chamber
of Secrets or Prisoner of Azkaban?
- Let's give Knox something other to do than look adorable, pretty
please!
- Lorne's intro to Rodger was priceless. Love how he used the
tradtional, and now that I think about it, condescending, meeting
someone's mom type flattery. Good for him for not playing by our
gender roles!
- Yet another episode about will and Angel's lack of. Hmm, are
you trying to tell us something? Is that an anvil I see before
me?
- "This was never about Wesley." Yes, I know but it
was great to see so much of him.
That's it from me. Great episode, Drew, and don't stay away so
long again, 'kay?
Hugs!
Ponygirl
(with apologies to those TWoP recaplet-ers that I've been enjoying
lately)
Replies:
[> not drew but answering anyway -- anom, 22:54:22
11/12/03 Wed
"The Eve/Angel scene was clunkier than last year's heels,
and Wes' scene on the roof felt too long in places. The totally
unnecessary flashback to Rodger smuggling in the gun was most
likely a director's choice so not blaming you."
Yeah, & Fred-as-hostage was so predictable it's not plausible
neither Wes nor Fred saw it coming. (I liked Fred-as-muscle a
lot better.)
"Rodger's unexpected mechanical condition felt like a cop-out
at first but I thought about it and I agree that it would have
been too heavy a plot point to hit this early in the year."
I would've liked to hear some explicit mention of the possibility
that the cyborg really was originally Roger, even though that
was ruled out at the end. Nah--they'd never have gotten the drop
on him to turn him into one of those things. Right?
"From the teaser on we'd been seeing Wes trying to slip back
into his darker persona, but neo-noirWes can't get the assurance
and ruthlessness down."
I wonder if a non-mindwiped Wes would have done any better at
facing his father. Or would he have gone too far in the other
direction?
And finally...I'm thinkin' there must be a way to mystically password-protect
those template books.
[> Re: Played any video games lately? (spoilers 5.7)
-- neaux, 04:15:29 11/13/03 Thu
I pray I'm not the only one who Saw what looked like visual references
to MAX PAYNE and Metal Gear Solid last night.
oh say.. lets check out this page
[> Re: Dear Drew (spoilers 5.7) -- CW, 06:52:45 11/13/03
Thu
The great thing about Drew is that despite the flaws, and there
are some, the episode turns out beautifully.
Personally, it usually drives me nuts when some TV or movie imposter
easily fits in and fools people intimately close to the real person.
It wasn't that hard to guess ahead of time that Daddy Dearest
was going to attack Wes in the vault and would eventually turn
out to be a robot. But, I still enjoyed this ep a lot.
My favorite line was Spike's "...So, how've you been?"
[> [> Re: impersonation (spoilers 5.7) -- skeeve,
08:44:10 11/13/03 Thu
The impression I got was that Daddy didn't have a lot of personality
to impersonate.
What personality Daddy did have suggested he was more into bludgeoning
with words than with bludgeons.
I liked Spike's comment about sex with robots being more common
than you might think.
He would know.
What kind of progeny should Spike and a Buffy-robot produce?
Now then, what are they going to do about all those WC records?
[> [> [> Re: impersonation and sexbots (spoilers 5.7)
-- leslie, 09:26:03 11/13/03 Thu
"I liked Spike's comment about sex with robots being more
common than you might think.
He would know."
The thing is, it was when he said that that Eve started really
staring at him. I am coming more and more to the conclusion that
she is a robot. She thought he was on to her.
Also, the massive contrast between Spike's demeanour in the scene
in the elevator and his behavior in every other context leads
me to believe that he is really losing it. He used to be able
to put on the tough-guy snarky business so smoothly you thought
it was the real him, but now it's like he's desperately trying
to direct attention elsewhere (if he thinks Pavayne might still
be after him, no wonder--does he know Pavayne is locked up in
the basement? Does he believe the prison is inviolable?) "Hey!
Look at that idiot over there! Angel beat up an old man! Wesley
is a prig! Over there! That guy! Not me!" And really, when
did Spike ever have a problem with anyone, especially a
woman, looking at him too much?
But ultimately, I think the real question is, who's behind the
whole plot? And I think that, even though Evil Dad turned out
to be a robot, it's the reconsitituting Watcher's Council. They'd
have the best access to the information needed to create a convincing
replica, after all, and from the one side of the final conversation
we hear between Wes and his (we assume) real father, I don't think
that Wes is going to get around to saying, "Hey, dad, by
the way, did you know that someone replicated you and sent it
over here to perpetrate evil in your name? What's up with that?"
[> [> [> [> Re: impersonation and sexbots (spoilers
5.7) -- skeeve, 15:13:57 11/13/03 Thu
I'd have stared too had I not already known about Spike and the
Buffybot.
There's no reason Eve would have known.
I'd have really stared had I taken seriously his suggestion of
progeny.
Gettin back to Wes, Fred should have said thank you.
Not just for ordinary politeness, but to remind Wes that he'd
done the right thing and it would have still been the right thing
had the target actually been his father.
With consoling like Wes got, who needs criticism?
[> [> [> [> Resources, Spike, Eve, & a gripe.
-- RadiusRS, 16:33:41 11/13/03 Thu
Wolfram & Hart also has the resources to pull off what happened
tonight. And I still say Inside Job. By the way, do you think
perhaps Eve was going to the White Room when Spike interrupted
her? And why would she tip her hand about the amulet being meant
for Spike unless she WANTS to drive a wedge between him and Angel.
I hope that the weird pacing I've felt so far this season is purposefully
due to ME planning, trying to keep us off balance about what's
going on and why everyone's acting so weird, though after Buffy
S7, with the whole Giles acting weird debacle, "is-she-or-isn't
she Joyce", and the toothless Big Bad, three great storylines
with wasted potential, I'm not so sure anymore. And this doesn't
feel like the usual ME red herring either, unless they have found
a new method to trick us.
[> Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers 5.7) --
Ponygirl, 09:41:42 11/13/03 Thu
There's a thread on the Angel After Spike board discussing Arthurian
knights (it's also a massively spoilery thread so not for the
spoiler-free or even spoiler-lite!) which got me wondering if
the Percy comments were not simply a Harry Potter joke. Is the
role of Percival/Parsifal that's been discussed here too lately
not necessarily Spike's?
[> [> Re: Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers
5.7) -- Claudia, 10:46:15 11/13/03 Thu
You could be right. Someone has hinted that Wesley could be Percival.
[> [> Re: Another random thought re: Percy (spoilers
5.7) -- leslie, 10:47:52 11/13/03 Thu
Though the name "Percy" already has unfortunate associations
in the Buffyverse due to that jock whom Willow tutored in S3.
The Father will kill the
Son (spoilers up to 5.07) -- Lunasea, 08:08:32 11/13/03
Thu
The Father will devour the Son. ME's wonderful twist on the classic
myth of the Prince killing the King in order to ascend to the
throne. The Prince cannot be King as long as his father is still
alive, unless the father abdicates his position. Our feelings
about patricide often get in the way of the metaphor of giving
up what we were in order to be what we can be. We have to "kill"
what gave rise to us when it stands in our way in order to ascend
to new heights.
I gave birth to my daughters, but they also gave birth to me.
Children aren't just the created, but they are also creators.
They made me a mother. I am powerless to make myself a mother.
Only my children can make me one. Angel and Darla conceive Connor
in a miracle, but the real miracle is what he makes them. Sharing
his soul with Darla is more than just a plot device that enabled
her redemption. Our children awaken our hearts.
In the standard myth, the Prince is more Heir than he is Son.
An heir is necessary because of our mortality. The Prince isn't
an individual in the eyes of the King, but an extension of him
that will go on after he passes away. Angel, being immortal, doesn't
need an heir. His son's future is open ended to him. Connor isn't
someone to carry on for him, but an individual for him to love.
Everyone else is worried about Connor as Heir and fulfiller of
prophecy, but Angel sees him as his son.
Connor gives birth to Angel the Father. Even the events in "Sleep
Tight" do not undo this. Angel the Father tries to find a
way to bring back his son. What returns is "The Destroyer."
Connor manages to do something that Holtz couldn't--he destroys
Angel the Father. Holtz didn't want this. His revenge required
Angel to remain a father. Eternal torment, Angelus' specialty
that he demonstrated with Drusilla, was to be Angel's fate.
Jasmine was known to the insect demons as "the devourer"
among other things. She devoured Connor until there was nothing
left for Angel to be able to save. When Angel had to kill Connor
to save him, the Father devoured the Son, but the Son devoured
the Father as well. In having to do the unspeakable, Angel lost
his identity as Father. He can't focus on trying to bring his
son back or even mourn his death because Connor isn't dead.
In the mythology of AtS, it was important for Angel to lose this
image of himself as Father, an image that Connor gave birth to.
He had to move beyond Darla, the mother that sired him and Connor,
the child that made him a father. The trip to the Belly of the
Beast involves self-annihilation.
This is what I've been thinking about this week, even before "Legacy"
aired. ME is doing a very good job of subconsciously creating
the arc and when it finally is revealed to the conscious, it will
seem evident all along.
Wesley didn't kill the body of his actual father, just like Angel
didn't really kill Connor, but both of them know, they would have
and as such they did kill them in their mind. It's all about Angel.
"Bachelor Party" gave Angel's side of the Buffy/Angel
breakup without having to be about Angel (namely his inability
to cope with being a demon led to their break up). This set up
"IWRY." I wonder what "Legacy" is setting
up.
There has been much debate about why Angel is upset when it comes
to Connor. There have been some excellent posts giving various
theories. I would say based on "Legacy" Angel is upset
because if he didn't have a way to save Connor, he knows he would
have killed him outright to save others. He also blames himself
for Connor being in that position.
As parents, our primary obligation is to our children. It is amazing
what we will endure for their well being. As a father, Angel was
willing to take some tremendous risks to try and bring Connor
back. As a father, Angel ended world peace. As a father, Angel
would have done anything to save his son. Anything, but give up
the lives of the innocent. If it came down to a store full of
innocents and his son, his son would have had to die. Angel knows
this. His son is happy without him as Eve reminds him, but that
doesn't alter the fact that Angel knows he would have killed his
son if he had to. His son was an innocent that was in that position
because of Angel and Angel still would have killed him if he had
to.
With this theory, we can go back and look at the other episodes.
"Conviction." What sort of conviction does Angel have
as a father if he could kill his own son? It doesn't matter that
he didn't. He would have and he knows it. That is what is eating
him up. Tradition? Tradition dictates that a father wouldn't kill
his own son. Fries is willing to kill his own child for his own
ends. Fries' mission is himself. Angel's mission is the helpless
and he chose that over his own son. In choosing that mission,
Angel turned Connor into a bomb. Instead of helping Connor over
Quortoth, he was busy fighting the Beast and turning into Angelus.
He didn't have time to save him from Jasmine and even took out
this frustration on Connor's face. He didn't have time to be the
father Connor needed because he was busy with the mission, so
Connor literally became a bomb, a bomb that magick had to diffuse.
Magick and mercy. Angel is missing that he was willing to sacrifice
himself and accept the Senior Partners' offer. He didn't kill
his son, but showed him mercy. None of the gang can point this
out.
"Just Rewards." Angel ended world peace to save his
son. The one thing he lost was his son. Spike sees the high life
that Angel now has and is jealous. His real jealousy is that Buffy
loves Angel in a way that she will never love Spike. He can focus
on the fancy cars and power though. Angel has everything he wants,
according to Spike. What Angel wants is his son. Just as Spike
wants Buffy's love, Angel wants his son's. I think it is fitting
that Spike is non corporeal. He has little if any existence outside
of Buffy. He could have stolen everything that Angel has, but
he doesn't want it as Angel. He wants Buffy to love HIM, not just
think he is Angel. Angel could have mojoed a loving good son.
What would that have meant to him? His son was already dead, in
his heart. Angel could have just had him reanimated. Would that
have been his son?
Angel wasn't in time to actually save Nina. Nor was he in time
to actually save Connor. Because Angel wasn't in time, Connor
was taken to Quortoth to be raised by a vengeful madman. Nina's
transformation caused her to want to rip out the throat of her
niece and when Connor came back it was as "The Destroyer."
Nina is ready to be eaten and Connor is ready to be blown up.
Angel returns Nina to her loving family and he gives Connor one.
Of course Angel thinks he is going to hell. Buffy died to protect
her sister/daughter. Then she got to go to heaven. Darla died
to give birth to Connor. Angel would have killed him. All the
ghosts that haunted Spike were representative of Angel's relationship
with Connor. The man cutting his hand wouldn't have been able
to hold onto him as Holtz stole him. The woman without arms that
wanted to be held would have been Angel desperately trying to
reconnect with Connor after he came back, but because he compensated
for his own issue with his father, he was unable to. The woman
with glass in her eye that cut Spike is an Angel that is unable
to see what is going on because he is blinded by what is going
on with Cordy and even lashes out at Connor because of this. Then
we get lawyer ghost who is indifferent to Spike. Angel as CEO
of Wolfram and Hart who no longer has a son.
Spike is being dragged to hell in order to satiate its appetite
for another. Spike is Angel's shadow, his unconscious. In his
unconscious, Angel is being punished because of what he was willing
to do to Connor. He is accepting full responsibility for that,
even though it is Holtz (represented by Pavayne) that is the one
that is responsible.
Angel has been disconnected from his ability to read people for
quite some time. He only seems to have this trait as Angelus.
If he had exercised it, he would have seen what was going on with
Connor earlier. Angel's party is trying to save others and in
his undead state, he does try to be "The Life of the Party."
You can't save the world 24-7. The demon with the human mask was
Connor.
That is the cliff notes version. I could be reading things that
aren't there or the whole season could be one big love letter
to Masq so far. Whatever it is, it is setting up the next episode
for something big.
At the ends of each episode seem to be the seeds of Angel's redemption
for each issue. I look forward to seeing them all tied together
at some point.
Replies:
[> Re: The Father will kill the Son (spoilers up to 5.07)
-- JM, 17:29:25 11/13/03 Thu
Really interesting stuff. Don't agree that everything is through
Angel, but definitely agree with one point. Angel is having to
deal with the realization that he would have killed Connor if
ir was recovered. He caused it, he would have fixed it. What he
did instead, the results remain to be seen.
Also think the Nina paralell was great. Good eye.
[> [> Thanks -- Lunasea, 04:49:22 11/14/03 Fri
Don't agree that everything is through Angel
When we dream or tell stories, all the characters are representations
of us. Angel (and Buffy) being the central character and the focus
of the story is the character striving for Individuation. The
other characters and their stories illustrate this somehow. We
are only one person. We just divide that person and this dissociation
makes our stories. Not only does the hero have a thousand faces,
but within the story so does the author.
At least that is one theory.
[> [> [> Re: Thanks -- JM, 17:54:07 11/14/03
Fri
Didn't mean to negate it totally. I think you are right that the
characters as mirrors, refractions, of the main character is one
of the functions they perform. I just think, that because of the
initial structure of the show, where Angel was intended to just
help the damsel/issue move forward, that sometimes it's actually
the opposite.
Sometimes the focus is the ensemble, and Angel is the mirror/symbol
in the secondary character's exploration.
But that may have more to do with my story telling preferences
than what's on screen:-)
Like I said before (in my mangled typing -- injured hand), I really
liked the points you brought up. It's important to explore what's
going on in Angel's psyche, because he doesn't articulate it,
but it's deep and important this season. Especially as everyone
else is, on a certain level, living the life of his puppets. Must
be a crushing, lonely responsibility. No wonder he's growly.
Ultimate Drew Goes Down the
Wrong Rabbit Hole (spoilers for "Lineage") -- cjl,
08:27:44 11/13/03 Thu
First thought in my head after the episode: it should have been
called "Linear." After Jeff Bell's metaphorical, metanarrative,
and multi-culti symbolic richness in 5.6, we get a straight-forward
action plot in 5.7, and it's Drew Goddard's weakest script ever.
Not that any episode focusing on Our Man Stubble, Alexis Denisof,
is ever going to be a total loss--AD is just too good an actor.
But Goddard makes a big mistake by laying down the foundation
for a solid character conflict--Angel's instinctive distrust of
Wesley--and then veers off in an entirely different direction.
After the John Woo/Miami Vice-style warehouse shoot-out (more
on that later), we come out of the credits with Wes on the carpet,
and Angel chewing him up and then spitting him out. After Wes
leaves, Eve does that brand-new dance that's sweeping the nation,
the Exposition, and hits all the major plot points for Angel and
the uninitiated: Wesley stole your son because he thought he was
doing the right thing, you still resent him for it, and you can't
trust a man with three-day stubble because he's conflicted and
a bad-ass and Alexis is getting more fan mail than you are.
[Side rant: OK, it's official. I can't stand watching Susannah
Thompson as Eve. She's so completely miscast as the seductive
W&H liaison/devil-on-Angel's-shoulder, it's embarrassing. She's
got the intellectual manipulation down, but she simply doesn't
have the mature, erotic presence necessary for the role. I hear
Joss originally wanted Monica Baccarin (Inara from Firefly) as
Eve; I can only imagine how much more interesting Eve's scenes
would have been with Ms. Baccarin draped attractively across Angel's
desk....]
Clunkiness aside, this scene sets up a juicy, multiple-level dilemma
for Angel for the rest of the episode: can he trust Wesley to
remain loyal to the team, no matter what the circumstances? In
this case, Angel literally knows Wesley better than Wesley knows
himself; Angel knows Wes screwed him over when Wes thought the
greater good was more important than Angel's wishes, even if Wes
doesn't remember doing it! Neat, huh? So, how does this play out
during the episode?
Well, it doesn't. Not really.
Of the three key Wes relationships explored during the ep-- Wes/Angel,
Wes/Fred, and Wes/Roger--Goddard only fully develops two out of
the three. The sub-plot with Roger (well-played by one of my all-time
favorite character actors, Roy Dotrice) is a given--but Drew pins
his hopes on the Wes/Fred relationship as the emotional hook of
the story, and it just doesn't work.
Honestly, folks, didn't we go through all this in "Billy"?
With Fred (and Wes' Dad) as the catalyst for the emergence of
his dark side? With Wes pushing away Fred at the end of the episode,
so she wouldn't get hurt? The Wes/Fred flirtation has long played
itself out, and a repeat of the Wes/Gunn/Fred triangle of Season
3, with Knox in the Gunn role, doesn't interest me in the slightest.
Maybe this romantic claptrap is all good for the newbies, but
I was hoping Drew Goddard could come up with something a bit more
satisfying for the long-timers. I wanted the attack on W&H and
Roger's involvement to subtly jack up Angel's paranoia factor
about Wes. At the end of the ep, rather than make lame jokes about
"hey, I killed my dad, too!", I wanted Angel to be concerned
that if Wes was capable of emptying a clip into his father when
the stakes were high enough, then Wes could do the same to any
authority figure who stood in the way of what he thought was right--Angel
included. IMO, a missed opportunity.
Other notes:
-- Spike was a mixed big this week. Liked the confrontation with
the Rogerbot, but the Head Boy jokes and the robot sex material
seemed forced. Marsters needed to underplay both scenes.
-- Is it just me, or does anybody else think the cyberninjas should
have been played for laughs? I swear, when ME does this kind of
B-movie material, they should just acknowledge that it's pure
pulp cheesiness, and go all the way.
-- On the other hand, the ninjas did give Wes a chance to torture
somebody without too many ethical quandaries, and I always enjoy
a spot of torture on this show. (Go, Wes! Give that sword another
twist! Yeah, baby!)
-- The warehouse opener was beyond cliche.
OVERALL: AD was riveting as always, and I'm always grateful for
Wesley-centric eps. But this is, by all measures, a disappointment.
6.5 out of 10.
Replies:
[> Re: Ultimate Drew Goes Down the Wrong Rabbit Hole (spoilers
for "Lineage") -- Claudia, 08:54:47 11/13/03
Thu
I have to admit that I have mixed feelings about "Lineage".
Alexis Denisof was excellent, as usual. But the establishment
of Wes' relationships with Angel and Fred came off as heavy-handed
(and oh God, will his infatuation with Fred ever end?), but I
did enjoy his interaction with his dad (or fake dad), played by
Roy Doctrice. After seeing what Wyndham-Price Senior was really
like, I can understand why Wes has "Daddy issues". On
the whole, the whole cyborg plotline seemed . . . unreal. Especially
for a Horror/Fantasy show. What was up with that anyway?
Other observations:
-Eve certainly bared her claws in this episode. However, Sarah
Thompson's scene with James Marsters was a lot better than the
one with David Boreanaz.
-At first, I thought that the episode's writer was unexperienced
in writing Spike's character, because he was really off in this
episode (aside from rescuing Gunn and the little talk with Eve
in the elevator). Imagine my surprise when I discovered that BtVS
veteran, Drew Goddard, wrote this episode. Dude, what happened?
-Wes remembers his affair with Lilah? How could that be? If doesn't
remember Connor, how could he have remember the Wes/Lilah romance?
[> Re: Cyborgs -- crunchy or cheesy? -- punkinpuss,
09:33:20 11/13/03 Thu
"-- Is it just me, or does anybody else think the cyberninjas
should have been played for laughs? I swear, when ME does this
kind of B-movie material, they should just acknowledge that it's
pure pulp cheesiness, and go all the way.--CJL"
Hmm, I thought they were pretty cool. And I immediately thought
(okay, later that night) of "El Diablo Robotico" from
TCToNC. Cheesy, yes, but also crunchy. Parallels to Angel as disheartened
hero going through the motions (why do I always sing that?), more
mask symbolism, ooh, and now a self-destruct thingymabob or symbol,
too. So, we get cool action figures AND layered symbolism. Not
bad.
Cheesy but with metaphorical substance. Okay, maybe it's a cheese
strata.
punkinpuss
[> [> I wear the cheese. The cheese does not wear me
:-) -- Lunasea, 09:47:14 11/13/03 Thu
[> Completely disagree... ("Lineage" spoiler,
unspoiled spec, Spiderman movie spoiler) -- Rob, 10:40:07
11/13/03 Thu
First thought in my head after the episode: it should have
been called "Linear." After Jeff Bell's metaphorical,
metanarrative, and multi-culti symbolic richness in 5.6, we get
a straight-forward action plot in 5.7, and it's Drew Goddard's
weakest script ever.
I thought, besides a few clunky moments, that the script was fantastic,
much stronger than his last effort, "Dirty Girls," which
did not have as solid a central focus, so despite some moments
of brilliance came off a bit uneven (for example, the first half
was almost exclusively about Faith's return, but then in the second
half she was almost completely unimportant). I loved the intra-series
continuity, a great deal of the humor, and the fact that he wrote
what essentially could have been a cop-out ending, but succeeded
due to the fact that Wesley was just as disturbed by killing the
robot that looked like his father as if he had killed his real
father, did not let himself off the hook when the others did,
and in the end has the same horrible relationship with his dad
that he always did, confirming that the idea of his father treating
him the way he did in this episode was not far-fetched or OOC
for the man at all.
After Wes leaves, Eve does that brand-new dance that's sweeping
the nation, the Exposition, and hits all the major plot points
for Angel and the uninitiated: Wesley stole your son because he
thought he was doing the right thing, you still resent him for
it, and you can't trust a man with three-day stubble because he's
conflicted and a bad-ass and Alexis is getting more fan mail than
you are.
I actually appreciated this a great deal, not because we needed
exposition, but because they were talking about pre-Season
5 events! That's always a great source of comfort for me,
since it makes it clear that ME is not starting from Square
One, completely sweeping all of the past events under the rug.
And it gives me hope that we'll get some real information about
the mindwipe soon.
At the end of the ep, rather than make lame jokes about "hey,
I killed my dad, too!", I wanted Angel to be concerned that
if Wes was capable of emptying a clip into his father when the
stakes were high enough, then Wes could do the same to any authority
figure who stood in the way of what he thought was right--Angel
included. IMO, a missed opportunity.
Disagree here too. I think the important thing to Angel here was
that Wes was able to kill his own father to protect Fred, just
as he hopes Wes would be able to do to him were he ever to turn
back to Angelus. It reaffirms for him that Wes, in the end, does
the right thing in saving his friends, even when the enemy who
is harming them wears the face of a friend or family member. It
also helps him understand Wes' decision to kidnap Connor all the
more, particuarly when he sees how distraught Wes is by his decision,
despite the fact that it was for the greater good. By extension,
Angel can see how truly remorseful Wes was for his kidnapping
of Connor, also. On the whole, I'm actually most happy that this
episode was really about Wes, not exclusively Wes-as-a-symbol-for-a-part-of-Angel's-psyche,
although that was there a bit too, particularly in the reversal
of the "father will kill the son" prophecy.
Honestly, folks, didn't we go through all this in "Billy"?
With Fred (and Wes' Dad) as the catalyst for the emergence of
his dark side? With Wes pushing away Fred at the end of the episode,
so she wouldn't get hurt?
Yes, but at this juncture of the story, I think it is important
for us to go through it again. As with Angel last week, this is
a reaffirmation of Wes' character. Sometimes with reaffirmation,
things are repeated, but there is a central difference...the "Billy"
situation was about Wes fearing his own darkness within that could
lead him to hurt Fred. In this episode, Wes fears the darkness
within that could lead him to hurt others to protect Fred.
There is a progression there. In the first case, he is in a similar
situation to Xander in "Hell's Bells"; in the second,
his situation is similar to that of Peter Parker and Mary Jane.
Peter worries that being his g/f will make Mary Jane a target
to others. In the case of the film version, where Mary Jane is
dating Harry Osborn, Peter's best friend and son of the Green
Goblin, who he killed, his love for Mary Jane might end up putting
her in danger in the second film (unspoiled, but it isn't inconceivable
that Harry might try to hurt Mary Jane to lure Peter out, once
he discovers that he killed his father). Either way, we see a
deeper fear here in Wes, of the morally amibiguous lengths he
might go to in order to protect his friends...mayhaps we see more
foreshadowing here of a possible future discovery on Wes' part
of previous morally ambiguous lengths he's gone to in order to
protect his friends, of which his mind has been wiped clean. Hmmmmm.
All in all, this was one of the best episodes of the season, IMO,
but then I've been ravenous for a good ol' Wesley-centric episode
all season. My current ranking is:
The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco
Lineage
Conviction
Hellbound
Just Rewards
Unleashed
Life of the Party
Rob
[> [> Has the issue of trust truly been resolved?
-- cjl, 11:07:23 11/13/03 Thu
"I think the important thing to Angel here was that Wes was
able to kill his own father to protect Fred, just as he hopes
Wes would be able to do to him were he ever to turn back to Angelus."
Wesley's willingness to kill Angelus (if he had to) is a given.
Angel should have no doubts about that. Wes proved it last season,
when he practically ordered Faith to take them both out when Angelus
was holding Wes hostage. The question raised by "Loyalty,"
"Sleep Tight," and at the start of "Lineage"
is (and always has been): Would Wes be willing to betray, or even
kill ANGEL if the circumstances called for it?
And the answer, of course, is YES.
The doubts raised by Eve with her Clunky Expository Dialogue aren't
a re-hashing of events two seasons past with no relevance to Season
5. They're a dagger to Angel's dried-up gnarly-ass beef jerky
heart, and central to his current relationship to Wes--and by
extension, the rest of the Fang Gang. Eve is telling Angel: "Look--he
betrayed you once before, because he thought you were dangerous
to the boy and to yourself. He stabbed you in the back because
he didn't think you knew what was best for your own son."
The implication should have been clear to Angel: Who says history
won't repeat itself here? Who says that when Wes finds out about
the mindwipe and the conditions of the deal with W&H, he won't
go off again and decide YOU'RE the threat? And make no mistake
about it, I think Angel is s****ing bricks about that happening--mainly
because he's not so sure Wesley would be wrong this time, either.
So how does "Lineage" and Wes emptying a clip into Roger
allay Angel's fears? If anything, it should drive Angel into a
near-paranoid frenzy....
[> [> [> Re: Has the issue of trust truly been resolved?
-- Rob, 11:31:32 11/13/03 Thu
So how does "Lineage" and Wes emptying a clip into
Roger allay Angel's fears? If anything, it should drive Angel
into a near-paranoid frenzy....
It might be a case of something not fully sinking in yet. At the
moment, Angel is glad Wes saved Fred's life and feels a bond with
him over the killing of the father. It may take a little while,
once he mulls it over to realize the more disturbing implications
of the action and what they could mean to him in particular. He
may just not have grasped the big picture yet.
Rob
[> [> [> [> That's what bothers me about this episode.
(spoilers for "Lineage") -- cjl, 11:59:10 11/13/03
Thu
Angel's been nothing but "big picture" all year. He
sees the spider-web that is Wolfram and Hart. He sees himself
and the Fang Gang caught in the spider-web, and it depresses the
hell out of him. He sees that their struggles in the web are making
it vibrate, summoning the spider. He just doesn't see the spider
yet--and that's driving him more than a little nuts.
And if Broody Boy wasn't "big picture" about Wes before
the episode started, he had UC Santa Cruz Chippie whispering over
his shoulder, reminding him in detail. So how did we get from
that Angel/Wes post-credits scene, so pregnant with dread and
paranoia, to the feel-good "he killed his daddy, so I can
depend on him" ending?
I think Drew Goddard missed the big picture, not Angel.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: That's what bothers me about
this episode. (spoilers for "Lineage") -- JM, 17:12:18
11/13/03 Thu
I'm with Rob, I think this was a really good exploration of the
issues. Eve didn't quite get it, what was bothering Angel. He
doesn't mistrust Wes, because he's a ticking time bomb of betrayal,
but because he doesn't understand how Wes comes to his (expensive)
moral decisions. We know that he's forgiven Wes, as much as humanly
possible, as far back "Deep Down" hallucinations. But
does he trust him? Can he forget as well as forgive? Of course
not.
What changes is that this time Angel, totally passive, doesn't
just see the result of the moral calculus. This time he sees the
work behind the result, and it's enough. Knowing that although
they, Angel and Wes, may not agree on the sacrifce ends entails,
they agree on those morals. And now Angle finally knows something
that's terribly important to Angel's emotive and individualistic
code. Wes doesn't make these decisions from a cold, disinterested,
utilitarian perspective. He makes this decisions when the most
important people in his life are involved. And he makes them just
as quickly, ruthlessly, and finally.
I don't think that Angel suddenly trusts Wes, he just finally
gets him. And understanding him is a big step forward for that
relationshiop. Angel is finally letting go of the steady side-kick
of "Awakening" and accepting the man we met in "Loyalty"/"Sleep
Tight" even if he may never agree with him. Or possibly absolve
him. He still loves him.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: That's what bothers me about
this episode. (spoilers for "Lineage") -- Malandanza,
08:47:52 11/14/03 Fri
"And if Broody Boy wasn't "big picture" about
Wes before the episode started, he had UC Santa Cruz Chippie whispering
over his shoulder, reminding him in detail. So how did we get
from that Angel/Wes post-credits scene, so pregnant with dread
and paranoia, to the feel-good "he killed his daddy, so I
can depend on him" ending?"
I did find it odd that Angel was so worried about Wesley's tendency
to sacrifice others for what Wesley believes is the a good cause
at the start and after an episode that would seem to reinforce
Angel's foreboding, Angel had flipped about 180 degrees to decide
it was a good thing that Wesley makes the "hard" decisions.
We had Wesley using Fred for his sting operation. We had the cyberninjas
committing evil acts for the greater good. A visit from a false,
but eerily realistic, watcher. We had Wesley torturing a cyborg
to get information (I was unclear on whether the cyborgs were
part human, as the name suggests, or all machine, built with the
capability of feeling pain). And we had Wesley shooting the man
he believed was his father when a fairly easy alternative was
available -- smashing the orb (the cyborgs worked for the good
guys -- they would have been unlikely to kill Fred out of spite)
-- by shooting his false father, he risked three lives -- the
cyborg father's life, Fred's life, and his own. Nothing Wesley
did justifies the sudden reversal in Angel's thoughts.
What I found intriguing about the episode is that Wesley seems
to realize what he's been doing. His willingness to sacrifice
others (that appalled Gunn in Pylea, when Gunn realized not only
was Wesley sending a group of people they didn't know to certain
death to provide a distraction, but he was willing to have Angel
killed or lost -- as Angelus -- in the challenge with Gru for
another distraction) is something he finally recognizes as morally
dubious. It'll be in interesting to see if the writers keep Wesley's
new uncertainty or revert back to General Price -- maybe he'll
even fail to make sacrifices, or fail to act, at some point in
the future with bad results.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Long time, no see, Mal!
Chewing on your comments: -- cjl, 09:48:21 11/14/03 Fri
"I did find it odd that Angel was so worried about Wesley's
tendency to sacrifice others for what Wesley believes is the a
good cause at the start and after an episode that would seem to
reinforce Angel's foreboding, Angel had flipped about 180 degrees
to decide it was a good thing that Wesley makes the 'hard' decisions."
JM (above) and many of the others posters seem to think that Wes
proved to Angel he's dedicated to protecting the Fang Gang, and
he's removed Angel's doubts about his motivations. Given the ending
of the episode, with Angel and Wes all buddy-buddy again, their
interpretation fits the script like the proverbial glove. But
I was baffled by Angel's reaction, because I saw Wesley's "dedication"
to doing what's right--no matter what the cost--as a direct threat
to Captain Mindwipe, and there's no way in your nearest hell dimension
Angel could have missed that.
"Nothing Wesley did justifies the sudden reversal in Angel's
thoughts."
You hit the same point from another angle: Wes' actions in Lineage
should have told Angel that--under the proper circumstances--Wes
would sacrifice anybody, including the members of A.I., if the
circumstances called for it.
"[W]e had Wesley shooting the man he believed was his father
when a fairly easy alternative was available -- smashing the orb.
(The cyborgs worked for the good guys -- they would have been
unlikely to kill Fred out of spite.) By shooting his false father,
he risked three lives -- the cyborg father's life, Fred's life,
and his own."
Now that's a bit harsh. Even though Wes suspected that whoever's
behind the cyberninjas are good guys, there's no way he could
have known that for sure. It's possible that Wes could have deduced
their good intentions from the fact that RoboDad didn't kill Wes
when they were in the vault; but our mystery puppet masters could
have wanted Wes alive for other reasons. Tough call, but I'll
give Wes the benefit of the doubt on that one. OTOH, taking Fred
to the warehouse was a bit, as they say, dodgy. Surely there must
have been someone with parahuman-level combat experience at W&H who
could have explained that weapon....
"What I found intriguing about the episode is that Wesley
seems to realize what he's been doing. His willingness to sacrifice
others (that appalled Gunn in Pylea, when Gunn realized not only
was Wesley sending a group of people they didn't know to certain
death to provide a distraction, but he was willing to have Angel
killed or lost -- as Angelus -- in the challenge with Groo for
another distraction) is something he finally recognizes as morally
dubious. It'll be in interesting to see if the writers keep Wesley's
new uncertainty or revert back to General Price -- maybe he'll
even fail to make sacrifices, or fail to act, at some point in
the future with bad results."
Don't know if Wes has delved that deeply yet. Right now, he's
back to "Billy," and he's just realized what he's capable
of when pushed to the wall. I don't think the "moral dubious"-ness
of his actions has hit home.
P.S.: BTW, read your Dawn/Andrew/FE fic, "Cleveland."
I think you've got the first three chapters of an excellent Buffy
novel.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Long time, no
see, Mal! Chewing on your comments: -- Malandanza, 20:52:00
11/14/03 Fri
" Even though Wes suspected that whoever's behind the
cyberninjas are good guys, there's no way he could have known
that for sure. It's possible that Wes could have deduced their
good intentions from the fact that RoboDad didn't kill Wes when
they were in the vault; but our mystery puppet masters could have
wanted Wes alive for other reasons. Tough call, but I'll give
Wes the benefit of the doubt on that one. "
anom mentioned that Wesley really believed the cyborg was his
father at that moment, so the question becomes would Wesley's
father have killed Fred had Wesley destroyed the staff. While
the watchers are willing to sacrifice innocents (or not so innocents,
in the cases of Angel, Faith, and Spike) for the greater good,
I don't think we've seen anything that would lead us to believe
that RWP would kill Fred when it would have been manifestly not
in his own interest to do so (he wouldn't have left W&H alive)
-- nor would there be a greater good rationalization. There simply
would have been no point in killing her once the magic bauble
was destroyed. Would a watcher threaten or kill Fred to get the
staff? Certainly. But would he kill her when there was no possibility
of the death serving any purpose? I would say no. There has to
be a rationale for them to act -- as with the attempted execution
of Faith -- it would have eliminated the threat that a rogue slayer
posed and have given the WC a new weapon.
Wesley's problem has never been the ability to make the "hard
decisions." The problem is that he is too eager to make them
-- he doesn't bother with alternatives. A watcher is trained to
make difficult decisions -- to sacrifice the life of the slayer
he has worked with and trained, if need be, for the greater good.
Giles lost his job when he revealed that he would not make the
decisions the council demanded. Upon reflection, I believe that
Wesley seeks out the hard decisions to prove that he's the man
his father wanted him to be. Even when easier alternatives are
readily available, he finds the most difficult path so he can
make the choice no one else would be willing to make. Wesley is
so caught up with proving himself that he doesn't bother looking
for alternatives -- just think about these decisions:
Sacrificing Pylean rebels and Angel as a distraction (couldn't
he think of a way of distracting an army where everyone thinks
he's Beowulf other than a massacre?)
The Father shall kill the Son prophecy (why did he involve Holtz?)
Taking Angel's soul -- how was this a good idea? Why not just
drug him? Or find another way to release the subconscious memories
(like Giles did w/ Spike)?
Drug the slayer and feed her to Angelus -- with a drug that Lorne,
the most tolerant guy in the Angelverse, banned from Caritas.
I think that Gunn's reaction in Pylea and Lorne's in Orpheus
were how we were meant to see Wesley. He isn't right for the Utilitarian
Council because he doesn't look for the most expedient path to
the greatest good -- he looks for the most treacherous route.
As for Angel and Wesley being friendly at the end of the episode,
I think there are a couple of possibilities other than Angel respects
Wesley's ability to kill people he thinks are his father to save
the girl he obsesses over. I recall Angel being rather chipper
just after Fred and Gunn had killed Fred's professor -- he didn't
know the full story at the time, but eventually figured it out
(as we saw when Angelus was out, Angel was very much aware of
what was going on around him, no matter how little he meddled)
-- when Angel thinks things through at his leisure (during his
scheduled brooding time), he may see Wesley in a different light.
Another possibility is that Angel doesn't see killing a robot
to save a coworker as a big deal. I mean, it was just a robot.
And it was threatening him and Fred. Angel would have twisted
its head right off without a second thought.
In any event, the ability to make hard choices isn't laudable
without the judgment to know when these choices are even necessary.
Wesley torturing the cyborg and keeping a slave girl were expedient
decisions -- hesitating in the former case could have lost everything,
and in the latter, Angel might have been lost forever. Many of
Wesley's hard choices, however, have little to recommend themselves.
p.s. Thanks for the comments on the fanfic -- it turned out longer
than I had intended and by the final chapter had exceeded my attention
span, so I wrapped it up a little abruptly. Originally I had a
Willow subarc paralleling the slayer arc (only from the good side)
but it turns out I can't write believable Willow dialogue, so
she just got a couple of cameos.
[> [> [> [> [> [> on one point... --
anom, 12:27:00 11/14/03 Fri
"And we had Wesley shooting the man he believed was his father
when a fairly easy alternative was available -- smashing the orb
(the cyborgs worked for the good guys -- they would have been
unlikely to kill Fred out of spite) -- by shooting his false father,
he risked three lives -- the cyborg father's life, Fred's life,
and his own."
But at the time, Wesley didn't know his "father" was
a cyborg. And he couldn't have been sure they always "worked
for the good guys" based on a couple of cases--they could've
been mercenaries, doing the dirty work (wetwork?) of both sides
according to who they were hired out to. (I really hope we find
out who's behind them. Did the Watcher's Council use them before
the big blow-up?) Anyway, I don't think Wes could've counted on
their "good guy" status to make his decision.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wes and Roger, Angel's
180 and the Season's Big Bad (spoilers to Lineage) -- RadiusRS,
01:14:49 11/16/03 Sun
I think that perhaps Wesley's belief in the authenticity of his
father (and why he wasn't all that surprised when "Dad"
conked him on the head) is that he probably inherited that "hard
decision making" gene from Roger. I also think the cyborgs
(which I thought were explained to be part human with Fred's "They
have a human nervous system" line and with Wes' deduction
that they could feel both pain and fear) underestimated his feelings
for Fred. Robo-Roger threatened Fred because he picked up on Wesley's
feelings for her, but if the cyborg builders were also affected
by the mindwipe, it stands to reason that they were unaware how
long and intensely Wes pined for her.
It seems to me that the cyborg builders were neither the Watcher's
Council, who is too old-fashioned although they are ruthless enough
to threaten innocents (see the Crucible episode where Giles drugs
Buffy for her test for further proof of Watcher mentality and
how they threaten Giles and Buffy's friends during Season 5 as
well as other examples in this thread), or The Initiative, which
dismissed the mystical as Hocus Pocus, were severe and short-sighted
in their pursuit of "evil", and were equally vicious
(I thought the ninja murdering the arms dealers in the beginning
was way harsh and vigilante-like, and killing humans, even evil
humans, has always been a no-no in the Buffyverse; that said,
it seems Angel has been doing quite a bit of that this season
compared to last season's Angelus arc where we didn't witness
him taking a single human life). Seems to me this season's arc
is shaping up to be Angel as the Big Bad (relatively speaking),
and wouldn't that be an interesting twist? With the mindwipe starting
to fray at the edges and the obvious effects that W&H has had
on the Gang, maybe it was the firm's plan to put Spike in the
mix to give the gang another vampire with a soul to follow after
learning of Angel's treachery (remember Angel's divide and conquer
comment in "Home"? And he did take the deal for all
of them without clearing it for the selfish reason of saving his
son) and thereby divide them from within. I believe Angel respects
Wesley because he had the balls to kill his father the same way
he "killed" Connor, but did a 180 because Wes didn't
know what the consequences of said killing would be and Angel
did. And I'll also bet that the mindwipe was W&H's condition
for saving Connor, which means we might get a chance to see Lilah
again in a flashback to the exact deal that was made in "Home"
(yay!)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That's what bothers
me about this episode. (spoilers for "Lineage")
-- Rufus, 18:54:15 11/14/03 Fri
The research indicated that the cyborgs seemed to be doing the
job of the good guys.....but, are they in fact "the good
guys?"
[> [> [> Daddy Issues (Spoilers to 5.7) -- RadiusRS,
17:25:36 11/13/03 Thu
Since one of Drew's last episodes was "Lies my Parents Taught
Me", and because of the button of the episode with both Spike
and Angel mentioning killing their parents, I think the murder
of Roger-bot played a more symbolic role that literal one. Wesley
repeats to his father, several times in the episode, that he knows
what he's doing. The post-credits scene where Angel chastises
him is because he doesn't think Wes knows what he's doing (despite
four seasons to the contrary), Eve then says that Angel doesn't
trust Wesley because of Connor, yet "Connor's O.K., you're
happy (close on Angel's decidedly unhappy face), maybe Wesley
knew what he was doing after all", and Wes then transfers
those feelings of inadequacy onto Fred when she goes to see him
and takes offense to his patronizing attitude (Fred knew there
were guns involved, why didn't she take her own protection? And
didn't she used to be REALLY good at hiding? At least she assumes
the responsibility). It seems to me that, despite his mistakes,
Wesley does know what he's doing, and after last season's mindwipe,
he has to prove it to himself AND Angel, who never really dealt
with the issue except in a dream where Wes apologized to him.
The whole point of the episode was to show that Wes CAN handle
himself and is very good at what he does, but perhaps has lost
his edge due to losing his memories (which according to Darla
last season, a person's feelings and memories makes them who they
are). It's all of a sudden easier to reconcile this Wesley to
the one who helped Fred with Seidel and who put the bite back
in Faith last season. I think a lot of the spec is right and it
will be he who will discover Angel's deal, and in a classic ME
reversal, now it is the Gang who will feel betrayed by Angel.
All in all, Wesley became a man this episode by killing his figurative
father, and understanding that he was too dark for Fred, and that
at least trying to create a relationship with Dad is his only
means of Salvation. Or maybe W&H is getting to him...
[> Or perhaps it's the Right Rabbit Hole? :-) (Spoilers
5.7) -- shadowkat, 11:01:50 11/13/03 Thu
My take on Lineage is somewhat different than yours, possibly
because I wasn't expecting that much and I'd seen several horrible
tv shows prior to it? But as I've noticed across the internet
both on The Cautionary Tale and on Lineage - people differ wildly
on tastes. Some hated 5.6 with a passion, while others loved 5.7
and vice versa. I'm weird, I suppose, since I personally loved
them both.
***************************************************
Drew Goddard is an interesting writer. He's fantastic with the
dark/agnsty bits, but horrid at humor in my humble opinion. I've
come to the conclusion that the bits and pieces of the Drew episodes
I had difficulty and/or reservations with were his attempts at
humor. The Spike
bits seemed out of wack or out of character to me for example.
Head boy joke, the robot joke, and the exiting the building due
to a bomb joke.
OTOH - there is a really intriguing theory on one of the listserves
I'm on that the Spike humor bits were meant to be off - that it
was intentional. He was supposed to seem out of character - the
humor was supposed to be forced. (If so, kudos to JM for pulling
that off, b/c it felt forced.) This theory is actually supported
by the Eve/Spike conversation in the elevator, where Spike confronts
Eve regarding her agenda and Eve, in true femme fatale fashion,
turns around and accuses Spike of also "performing",
that she doesn't buy his routine any more than he buys her's.
Whoa. If you re-watch all the Spike snark scenes with this conversation
in mind...it gives you a whole new perspective. And just in case
we missed it - Spike does two things that are out of his bad/tough/snarky
guy persona around that scene - 1) he reacts with fear when the
lights go out (you're not getting me!) when they come back on,
he looks embarrassed and states - that's something I always say
when the lights go out. (Okay, this is a point that's always fascinated
me, for the longest time I thought it was a mistake - but they
keep doing it, so it can't be. Spike can't see in the dark, not
only that he appears to be afraid of it - constantly lighting
candles, playing about in daylight, searching out the gem of amarra,
and how he uses his lighter in the Lurker demon's cave. He does
it again here. A vampire afraid of the dark? Meanwhile we have
Angel who appears to have no problem with the dark, can see perfectly
well, and almost prefers it. Even retreats to it at times like
Batman to his batcave. Am I imagining things?) 2)Spike actually
mentions that the elevator is broken and maybe they should get
help, Gunn says talk to maintanence. Spike pauses and you can
see him thinking, 'wait, why do I care about Eve, whom I dislike
and don't trust?'(reminiscent of a similar scene in Where The
Wild Things Are - where Spike considers helping the SG rescue
Buffy than wonders what he's doing.)
This is just one of many layered character bits that make me wonder
if Lineage may have more going on than
meets the eye? Perhaps this is an episode you have to be able
to re-watch to truly appreciate?
Wes. While I agree with you on the lack of Fred/Wes chemistry
this year - there was so much more in Soulless, I think there's
more going on here as well. First off, I didn't realize how much
I missed Wes until this episode. Ah. Finally. The best Wes scenes
since Home, and possibly the best Wes episode since the Faith
arc last season. Roy Dotrice as Roger was spot-on perfect. Perhaps
they'll bring him back when Wes' father really visits?? Would
love to see Roger and Giles interact. Roger was reminiscent of
Quentin Travers played by the wonderful Haris Yulin.
Maybe it's just me, but not getting the Fred/Wes chemistry. At
least not as much as last year. Not sure why. Is it Fred? Is it
because of the memory wipe? I'm thinking it may be the memory-wipe.
Each character seems to have reacted slightly differently to the
wipe. So it depends on how the events of the last two years played
out in their heads sans Connor.
Speaking of the memory-wipe - some interesting references to it
in this episode, which lead me to believe my theory that the memory-wipe
set up a mirror universe just like Angel's actions in IWRY did
is "right on" target.
1. Wes refers to Lilah's death by stabbing or an ex-girlfriend's
death by stabbing. He states a higher power decided to do it.
This is in keeping with the whole Jasmine arc. Leading me to believe
Wes remembers Lilah and Jasmine. Or some variation on that. The
question is how did it actually play out in Wes' memory? Did Angel's
wipe, cause Wes to come out a little better in Wes' head? In which
case Wes' actions towards Rodger may come as a surprise to Wes,
but not to Angel - providing Angel with an advantage?
2. Eve mentions to Angel that Wes and Company don't remember anything
that has to do with "Connor" directly.Yet it's clear
that Eve is almost egging on Angel's difficulty with Wes.
3. As scroll noted on Atpo a few weeks back, Wes no longer has
his scar. So apparently physical representations of Connor have
been eradicated as well.
Yet, as I noted above, Angel still remembers Connor and appears
to be punishing Wes still for what happened to his son. Angel
in 5.6 mentions somewhat sardonically the "father will kill
the son" prophecy to Wes, and is taken aback when he realizes
Wes doesn't remember it. In 5.7, Angel comes down harshly on Wes
when Fred gets hurt. (This builds directly from 5.6 and the whole
guilt trip Numero 5 has over his brothers being killed.)
Angel treats Wes, oddly enough, in the exact same way Rodger does
and even more interesting - how Angel's father used to treat Angel
and how Angel treated Connor. The scene between Wes/Eve/Angel
echoes the scene between Connor/Angel and team in Deep Down, almost
mirrors it. Eve points out afterwards that perhaps Angel came
down too harshly on Wes because he still blames him for something
that Wes can't remember and as far as Wes is concerned never happened.
Oh and then we have the scene where Fred is angry at Wes for treating
her like a child - a mirror of Cordelia being angry at Angel for
protecting her last season. Fred also says almost exactly the
same things, Wes wishes he could say to his own father/Angel.
All of this leads me to believe that Angel's deal with W&H was
to set up a mirror world where Connor lived with a normal family
and had nothing to do with the events of S3-S4. Those events still
happened. Wes turned dark. Lilah was killed by Cordy. Cordy had
Jasmine and went into a coma. The only thing not in the mix is
Connor. Angel basically erased Connor. Sort of the reverse of
the monks inserting Dawn into the SG's memories. Confusing as
hell - wonder
if the writers can make it work? Everyone on line seems completely
baffled by it, so maybe not? Got to give them credit for trying
though. Dawn in some respects was much easier. Connor's existence
so strongly affects Wes and Cordelia's story lines, that removing
him completely means you have to come up with an alternative storyline
to explain Wes and Cordy's behavior. Fred and Gunn? Not as drastically,
although I think Connor's betrayal of them and Angel's relationship
with Connor may have affected theirs. So what alternative story
did the writer's come up with? And what happens when Wes or anyone
else realizes it's false? Assuming they do? Will Wes be as forgiving
of Angel
as Angel is of Wes?
Will. Once again the writers bring up the whole idea of free will.
Very interesting on numerous levels.
1. A nice reversal here - instead of Angel giving everyone back
their free will, killing his grandchild and son to do so, we have
Wes killing his father to give Angel back his will. But that's
not the end of it. These writers are clearly fans of MC Escher,
heck Drew Goddard even references Escher in the script - Fred
mentions the artist, making it clear that by doing the memory
wipe, Angel has literally set up a mirror world right out of a
MC Escher drawing.
2.Because the next logical level is Wes kills Rodger to save Fred,
just as Angel is forced to kill Connor to save Cordelia. Yet Wes
doesn't really kill Roger - Rodger exists safely in the bosom
of his home, not knowing anything about it as if it never happened
at least in Rodger's world, just as Connor exists safely in the
bosom of his new home, not knowing anything as if it never happened.
Both are false kills for the victim, yet emotionally real for
the actor (Angel and Wes).
3. Does the writer stop there? Nooo. Goddard adds a little more
- he compares Spike and Angel's histories with their parents to
Wes. Angel attempts to commiserate with Wes over killing his father
- stating that he killed his own father -first thing he did as
a vampire. Then we get Spike - who mentions the siring of his
mother, then staking of her when she tried to shag him. These
two stories nicely bracket Wes' issues in the piece - saving Fred
(den mother) yet losing her to someone else and killing Roger
(cyborg father). It also brackets Angel's issues involving his
son Connor - who slept with his surrogate mother (Cordelia), tried
to kill his father (Angel) and Angel ended up killing and restoring
to a new life (not unlike a vampire kills and restores someone
to a new life).
It's been mentioned that Spike and Angel both seem fairly matter
of fact about the killing of their parents. Not upset. But remember
Spike and Angel killed their parents over 100 years ago. They
did it when they were unsouled.
And both believe they've dealt with it. Or have they? Why do both
vamps feel the need to commiserate with Wes? Why do both mention
it in detail and state things they know Wes may not know about
them? Methinks that Spike and Angel have not completely dealt
with these crimes, if anything these crimes influence and affect
them more than anything else they've done - just as Wes' realization
that he would and could kill his father influences him more than
anything else he remembers. BTW - is Wes' actions towards his
father similar in any way regarding his actions towards Faith
in S3 BTVS? And isn't it interesting that Wes is clumsy the moment
his father shows up - just like he was clumsy around Giles and
later Angel (for first few seasons)?
Bad guys & Angel
The whole Bad guys as a metaphor for Angel's mindset and his own
fears continues here. This episode's metaphor in my humble opinion
might be the most intriguing yet - because it cuts to the heart
of Angel's hero's dilemma. Rodger states something to the effect
: "You were only a puppet for PTB and now W&H, why not
be one for us?"
Truth is - Angel has always felt like a puppet. First he rebels
against his father - because he feels like he's Daddy's puppet.
(I am what you wanted father). 2.Darla's - doing anything to impress
her. Then the gypsies who curse him. Then Whistler who sends him
to Buffy. 3. the First Evil who may have brought him back to earth
after a 100 years in hell. 4. the PTB who appear to send snow
to save him and visions to give him direction. 5. Angelus the
puppet of the BeastMaster 6.Jasmine/Skip who do the whole Connor
thing. (Connor remember kept asking that question last year -
am I just a puppet). Angel and the others literally become Jasmine's
puppets for a while.
7. Angel makes the deal with W&H becoming in effect, their puppet
or so Rodger seems to believe.
So Rodger like the Numero Cinqo/Aztec Demon of previous episode
- represents both sides of Angel. Angelus who makes puppets of
men - by siring them or even Angel who by doing the memory wipe
may have taken a portion of his friend's free will just as Rodger
is slowly seeping away his. Actually maybe that's what the combo
memory wipe/joinging W&H is like for the AI team a slow seepaged
of their will into W&H's crystal ball? (not sure) Then we
have Wes as the metaphor for Angel - who will do anything, even
sacrifice a blood relative to give someone back their will - or
their life.
The question remains - how important is free will anyway?
And how much of it do we really have? The cyborgs had none, they
had been human, but their will was removed when they became programmable
machines with bombs implanted just in case they got comprised
or didn't follow orders. (Perfect metaphors for the situation
Angel and the others find themselves in at W&H - what happens
is ANgel and his friends
leave or turn on W&H? Will the building go boom?) Rodger the
cyborg also has none - just like the human/real Rodger - who is
merely a cog in the organization he belongs to. Rodger does what
the Watcher Council or the Cyborg Organization says, regardless
of the cost to his family or his own soul. Is W&H through EVE
attempting to do the same thing? Have they already?
For all the wonderful metaphorical layers and the Wes bits?
I give it 9 out of 10.
Just a few thoughts. Your mileage may vary of course.
SK
[> [> Re: Or perhaps it's the Right Rabbit Hole? :-)
(Spoilers 5.7) -- Claudia, 11:29:52 11/13/03 Thu
"All of this leads me to believe that Angel's deal with W&H was
to set up a mirror world where Connor lived with a normal family
and had nothing to do with the events of S3-S4. Those events still
happened. Wes turned dark. Lilah was killed by Cordy. Cordy had
Jasmine and went into a coma. The only thing not in the mix is
Connor."
Yeah, but in the Fang Gang's mind, who had impregnated Cordy with
Jasmine, if not Connor? And what led Wes to turn dark and end
up in an affair with Lilah, if not his decision to take Connor
away from Angel? Those are the questions I have.
[> [> Re: Or perhaps it's the Right Rabbit Hole? :-)
(Spoilers 5.7) -- punkinpuss, 15:44:53 11/13/03 Thu
I really loved these last two eps as well!
RE: Spike & OOC humor.
I like that idea that the OOC bits are a deliberate mislead on
Spike's part. Am also wondering if William was Head Boy when he
was in school, eh? Would make sense that Spike would jump all
over Wesley's perceived weakness -- the pre-emptive strike sort
of kneejerk reaction of someone who's desperate to hide his own
vulnerabilities and weaknesses. Even the FE/Dru said that it was
his style to kick a victim when he was down. Also, LOVE the idea
of Spike as a vamp afraid of the dark.
RE: Spike & Angel dealing with patricide/matricide
They're matter of fact about it now, but since they're demons,
isn't it basically one of their arrested development issues that
they haven't dealt with those unlife-changing events? They couldn't
back then, without a soul. Now, with a soul, they can deal with
it, but haven't as yet. Wesley is given a reprieve -- he has a
chance to make things right with his father before it all goes
horribly wrong next time and notice that he doesn't wait to call
RealDad to get the ball rolling. Now he can get over his father
issues without actually killing his father. For Angel and Spike,
it is too late to make things right, but not too late to learn
something if they're willing to see those events for what they
are (instead of a "hey I was a soulless bloodsucker, that's
what we do" kind of thing).
Great points btw on free will and the mindwipe. It's obviously
a huge problem and I don't expect it to be resolved easily or
quickly, but that's why I'm enjoying it.
punkinpuss
[> [> [> Oh Good points!! (Spoilers 5.7) -- s'kat,
20:26:13 11/13/03 Thu
Am also wondering if William was Head Boy when he was in school,
eh? Would make sense that Spike would jump all over Wesley's perceived
weakness -- the pre-emptive strike sort of kneejerk reaction of
someone who's desperate to hide his own vulnerabilities and weaknesses.
Ooh! I like this. That never occurred to me. And it would make
a lot of sense and totally works with this character.
Maybe the "head boy" joke isn't as out-of-character
as I thought. Remember how Spike rags on Angel throughout Season
2-4 on being a "nancy-boy", being weak and pathetic,
being the slayer's lap-dog, letting women boss him around,
he even does that hilarous speech at the beginning of In The Dark
- then later in Fool For Love and in Lies, we learn that "everything"
Spike criticized Angel for is actually a very good description
of who William once was.
Spike also criticizes Xander for being a Momma's boy and
Giles on his bookish ways - both things that aptly describe Spike.
So I think you're right - the snark is a defense mechanism - a
means of protecting himself against rejection and barbs.
Wesley is given a reprieve -- he has a chance to make things
right with his father before it all goes horribly wrong next time
and notice that he doesn't wait to call RealDad to get the ball
rolling. Now he can get over his father issues without actually
killing his father. For Angel and Spike, it is too late to make
things right, but not too late to learn something if they're willing
to see those events for what they are (instead of a "hey
I was a soulless bloodsucker, that's what we do" kind of
thing).
Good points. Angel and Spike are actually in a worse place than
Wes for two reasons - one Wes is forced to deal with it and two
is given a reprieve - a way to make things work, even if they
don't, quite. (Rodger after all is still Rodger, the father he
can never quite obtain approval or love from...but at least he
can find a way to accept that.
Darla's right about Angel - he never can, by destroying his father
- he'll never be free of him. Spike is a different case - actually
he may symbolize Wes' dealings with Fred.
Wes actually saves Fred - the love/mother/sister figure.
Spike? He is unable to save his mother from her disease, instead
he demonizes her and is forced to kill her. Interesting parallel
to Wes/Fred/Lilah - the evil lilah/the wholesome Fred = the wholesome
mother/the vampire. Wes can't save Lilah - he has to chop her
into bits, but he can save Fred. Spike is unable to save either
representation.
[> [> Re: Or perhaps it's the Right Rabbit Hole? :-)
(Spoilers 5.7) -- JM, 16:44:20 11/13/03 Thu
As always, wowee, what an analysis. Don't agree on just a couple
of points, but doesn't mean you aren't right on all of them. Agree
on the 9 point award, woo, a little worried I was the only one
who loved.
I'm not sure agree about the Spike humor being all off. Yes, he
is putting in a performance, but when doesn't he. (I thought that
was one of the points of "End of Days.") Spike has a
natural instinctive rapour with women; and a horrible one with
men. Probably due to having NO father figure. He's driving Angel
nuts half the time (even though I think Spike doesn't hate Angel),
he's been getting under Gunn's skin (even though he goes instantly,
concernedly to his defense with the ninja's), even Lorne isn't
all that crazy about him.
Spike may not be seeking disfavor among the guys, in order to
bind his championness more tightly to him, but unconsciously.
. . And of all the guys, Wes appears the least annoyed, but also
entirely disinterested. So I can entirely see Spike trying unconsciously
to annoy him. Some attention is better than none. And this "Percy"
issue is a big deal to Spike although it doesn't seem to be to
Wes or Angel. Angel already knows, from StB and from a season
and a half of tense, unsure, clutz Wes. Wes probably still thinks
of himself somewhat in those terms (how quickly he reverted).
Plus he never set out to transform, time and trial and grief and
experience did it for him.
On the other hand Spike crafted his entirely post-life identity
around a rejection of a persona that many people said about "Oh,
my God, William was Wesley." To Spike nancy-boy, brown-noser
is the ultimate epithet. To Wes and Angel, it's "So what.
. .And? " Plus I wonder if Angel doesn't miss those days
a little.
Plus, his abrasiveness is a lovely contrast to his solicitousness
later. He may want to pick on and needle Wes, but it's not out
of malevalenence. He's genuinedly touching in trying to share,
commiserate, and alleviate, despite the fact that he's creeping
Wes the hell out.
Sum up, I thought the humour was in character and revealing.
[> [> [> Actually I'm beginning to agree(Spoilers
5.7) -- s'kat, 20:47:10 11/13/03 Thu
I'm starting to agree with you, which is startling considering
I just heard all the reasons why it is out of character.
But both you and pumpkinpuss raise some excellent points.
I think Spike's behavior is the result of a combination of things,
things which oddly enough echo Wes' behavior in the episode.
1. Spike is, in a way, back with the one person he might actually
consider a sort of father figure. Angelus was Spike's "yoda",
his "grandsire", "his father". The big brother
who raised the little brother. Wes' actions around
Rodger echo Spike's actions around Angel. Both revert to a sort
of juvenile state - which people tend to do when they spend time
with family.
2. Spike, a very physical person and man of action, is incoporeal.
He can't touch, affect his surroundings, smell, or taste anything.
The most he can do is push things with his hands if he concentrates
hard enough. This has to be frightening. Also - Pavayne? Spike
did not defeat him really, all he did was make him corporeal.
If PAvayne ever dies and becomes a ghost again - Spike's in trouble.
3. Spike may not be seeking disfavor among the guys, in order
to bind his championness more tightly to him, but unconsciously.
. . And of all the guys, Wes appears the least annoyed, but also
entirely disinterested. So I can entirely see Spike trying unconsciously
to annoy him. Some attention is better than none.
Completely in keeping with character. Spike went out of his way
to annoy Giles and Xander in S4 BTVS. He wanted to be seen and
he did not want to be seen as a loser or as William. That scared
him. So he played Big Bad with his mouth.
Same thing here. It may very well be a defense mechanism he has
developed over time to deal with people who he is uncomfortable
with. The party-goers in FFL were mostly men.
I like your point that Spike has spent an eternity trying to ditch
a persona that many have said is very Wes/Giles.
Perhaps more clutz Wes than I thought.
To Spike nancy-boy, brown-noser is the ultimate epithet. To
Wes and Angel, it's "So what. . .And? " Plus I wonder
if Angel doesn't miss those days a little.
Interesting. Yet also very ironic since I think it was Angelus
who beat that persona out of William and possibly created Spike.
Remember the William we see in the scenes with Mom and Dru is
very different from Spike. What happened to make William into
Spike? Was it just staking his mother? Or could it be that Angelus
had a role?
[> [> [> [> On Reading Character Disjunctions
-- alcibiades, 07:41:05 11/14/03 Fri
Completely in keeping with character. Spike went out of his
way to annoy Giles and Xander in S4 BTVS. He wanted to be seen
and he did not want to be seen as a loser or as William. That
scared him. So he played Big Bad with his mouth.
Same thing here. It may very well be a defense mechanism he has
developed over time to deal with people who he is uncomfortable
with. The party-goers in FFL were mostly men.
I'm not saying Spike's act isn't a reversion to a meme in
his character that he is comfortable with, but it is too put on
to be believable. I mean, my God, he's acting eleven years old.
That's the way Goddard is portraying him. That's hardly big bad
with his mouth. It's just a pesky annoyance that Angel will brush
away heedlessly and give not another second of thought to. Which
doesn't seem to bother Spike, btw.
And that is the important thing, I think. Because Spike knows
Angel, better than all the others since he knows and has lived
with Angelus. Unlike Wesley, he hasn't only studied Angelus obsessively.
I think you can divide what happened with that head boy stuff
up into two parts. First, there is a very significant reaction
shot when Spike first hears that Wesley was headboy. Clearly it
means something to him, but the reaction is a significant look,
not reducible to the infantile prattle that comes next.
And then after that, he puts on that whole performance with the
"I have something to report" nonsense. I mean Spike
already knew that Wesley had a brilliant gift for languages --
that wasn't news to him. They showed him to us last week watching
Wesley as he decoded that meso-American ruines or whatever it
was. And Wesley seemed used enough to gauging Spike's presence
that he could tell he had arrived even with his back turned to
him. Last week, we get a serious interaction between Spike and
Wesley, this week it is all reduced to the puerile.
Except when Spike confronts Eve -- and drops the mask entirely.
He's watching her, he tells her, watching her watch him and he's
suspicious. It's all out front. And although the Pavayne nonsense
gives him away for a second --shows his fears -- it doesn't mean
his whole personality has been reduced to the level of taunting
others ineffectively. If there is an obvious disjunction in character
-- at least in the hands of a writer of Drew Goddard's quality,
it's indicating something we are supposed to figure out about
the plot. Look how masterful were all the silences JM acted out
in CWDP. And reflect about his performance now.
So, imo, Spike has his own agenda, he's running around through
the labyrinth, flying ghostly circles, trying to figure out what
is going on with himself and the whole W&H deal. When he saves
Gunn we see him not milling about, but on his way from one place
to another.
So, yeah, he's acting puerile in front of Angel and Wes, but look
at how dismissive Angel has been of him all along -- contemplating
ending his existence and so forth. Keeps on dismissing him without
a second glance. Why should Spike drop the mask in front
of Angel -- when Angel is not precisely an ally on his behalf.
No, Eve is the one keeping tabs on him and when confronted, confronts
him right back. Just like he's reading her, she's reading him.
And Eve may be misnamed. She may not be Eve but the snake, who
has already used sex and constant proximity to insinuate herself
into giving extremely private council to Angel about his reactions
to his friends, about his son, about himself. These are all off
limits to everyone else. Maybe like the snake, and unlike Adam
and Eve, she already knows all, has already bitten from the fruit
of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- in fact she did
Ø
[> [> [> [> On Reading Character Disjunctions/now
not cut off -- alcibiades, 07:48:38 11/14/03 Fri
Completely in keeping with character. Spike went out of his
way to annoy Giles and Xander in S4 BTVS. He wanted to be seen
and he did not want to be seen as a loser or as William. That
scared him. So he played Big Bad with his mouth.
Same thing here. It may very well be a defense mechanism he has
developed over time to deal with people who he is uncomfortable
with. The party-goers in FFL were mostly men.
I'm not saying Spike's act isn't a reversion to a meme in his
character that he is comfortable with, but it is too put on to
be believable. I mean, my God, he's acting eleven years old. That's
the way Goddard is portraying him. That's hardly big bad with
his mouth. It's just a pesky annoyance that Angel will brush away
heedlessly and give not another second of thought to. Which doesn't
seem to bother Spike, btw.
And that is the important thing, I think. Because Spike knows
Angel, better than all the others since he knows and has lived
with Angelus. Unlike Wesley, he hasn't only studied Angelus obsessively.
I think you can divide what happened with that head boy stuff
up into two parts. First, there is a very significant reaction
shot when Spike first hears that Wesley was headboy. Clearly it
means something to him, but the reaction is a significant look,
not reducible to the infantile prattle that comes next.
And then after that, he puts on that whole performance with the
"I have something to report" nonsense. I mean Spike
already knew that Wesley had a brilliant gift for languages --
that wasn't news to him. They showed him to us last week watching
Wesley as he decoded that meso-American ruines or whatever it
was. And Wesley seemed used enough to gauging Spike's presence
that he could tell he had arrived even with his back turned to
him. Last week, we get a serious interaction between Spike and
Wesley, this week it is all reduced to the puerile.
Except when Spike confronts Eve -- and drops the mask entirely.
He's watching her, he tells her, watching her watch him and he's
suspicious. It's all out front. And although the Pavayne nonsense
gives him away for a second --shows his fears -- it doesn't mean
his whole personality has been reduced to the level of taunting
others ineffectively. If there is an obvious disjunction in character
-- at least in the hands of a writer of Drew Goddard's quality,
it's indicating something we are supposed to figure out about
the plot. Look how masterful were all the silences JM acted out
in CWDP. And reflect about his performance now.
So, imo, Spike has his own agenda, he's running around through
the labyrinth, flying ghostly circles, trying to figure out what
is going on with himself and the whole W&H deal. When he saves
Gunn we see him not milling about, but on his way from one place
to another.
So, yeah, he's acting puerile in front of Angel and Wes, but look
at how dismissive Angel has been of him all along -- contemplating
ending his existence and so forth. Keeps on dismissing him without
a second glance. Why should Spike drop the mask in front of Angel
-- when Angel is not precisely an ally on his behalf.
No, Eve is the one keeping tabs on him and when confronted, confronts
him right back. Just like he's reading her, she's reading him.
And Eve may be misnamed. She may not be Eve but the snake, who
has already used sex and constant proximity to insinuate herself
into giving extremely private council to Angel on his friends,
on his son, on himself -- for she, like the snake, and unlike
Adam and Eve, already knows all, has already bitten from the fruit
of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- in fact she did
it under our very eyes just to make a point -- so it only remains
to ask whether she has eaten from the true of eternal life as
well. Is she, like the girl in the white room, an immortal as
well.
I like your point that Spike has spent an eternity trying to
ditch a persona that many have said is very Wes/Giles. Perhaps
more clutz Wes than I thought.
There are different kinds of bookishness.
Spike is unlike the two of them because he thinks through the
poetry of the thing, through symmetries, through his heart and
his blood and his guts. He is not a rationalist, the way both
Giles and Wes are.
I think Wes is most powerful when he relies on his instincts as
well, not on rationality, which is a defense mechanism in him
and limits him. But it always makes him feel terrible afterwards.
You can see how he got that way though with that father. Imagine
how scathing Rodger must have been to the little boy who wanted
to help the tiny bird, until Wesley learned to repress all of
his normative modes of loving others.
And look at how Giles' "rationality" got the better
of him last year.
In fact, Angel is a rationalist as well -- as a Kantian -- he's
forced to be -- because when Angel relies on his passions, Angelus
breaks free. And that is truly scary. So of all of them, he is
the most suspicious of passion and the most self controlled in
a way that divides him from himself. No wonder why he starts the
show extremely mistrustful of Wes' instincts and then learns bettter,
that Wes' instincts and passions, unlike his own as Angelus, are
not about devastating those around him, but about protecting them,
even if he has to kill his own father.
[> [> [> [> [> This is an interesting take
-- s'kat, 10:47:50 11/14/03 Fri
So, imo, Spike has his own agenda, he's running around through
the labyrinth, flying ghostly circles, trying to figure out what
is going on with himself and the whole W&H deal. When he saves
Gunn we see him not milling about, but on his way from one place
to another.
So, yeah, he's acting puerile in front of Angel and Wes, but look
at how dismissive Angel has been of him all along -- contemplating
ending his existence and so forth. Keeps on dismissing him without
a second glance. Why should Spike drop the mask in front of Angel
-- when Angel is not precisely an ally on his behalf.
I would agree with this. Interesting. And once again it fits with
Spike's modus operandi. Let's face it - Spike had to come up with
some way to survive with Dru/Darla/and Angelus for 20 years.
Also remember in S2 when Angelus shows up, Spike is crippled,
Spike plays Angelus that season. He pretends to go along with
Angelus and Dru, he pretends to be crippled and weak - while all
along he's plotting, biding his time, and coming up with a way
to get Dru away from Angelus.
When you re-watch the season you can see how he does it - the
puerile snark.
In S4 he plays the same act with the SG, to great effect in Yoko
Factor. Later we see him do it with Glory in Intervention, with
the nerd trio in Smashed. Spike is a lot brighter than he lets
on - he has to be, he's a 140 year old vampire. Not only that.
He's noted for being a pretty
deadly one.
Angel also has a weakness for taking things at face value. He
has a tendency to be fooled by image or behavior, especially when
he's otherwise engaged or preoccupied. And boy is he ever this
year. Spike - to Angel - is a minor annoyance. Angel has always
seen Spike this way. The wayward child, the little brother. You
get the feeling he doesn't take Spike seriously. And that has
always been one of Angel's greatest flaws not taking certain people
seriously. He has a tendency to underestimate people.
He underestimated Buffy in S1 BTVS, he underestimates Doyle in
Hero, he underestimates Fred in Supersymmetry, he underestimates
Cordelia in S3-S4. And he underestimated
Wes. He's very much like his own father - who underestimated Liam.
Ironic.
I think the reason Angel falls into this trap is partly for the
reasons you state above - he doesn't trust his instincts, his
heart. He relies on his head. Because he believes that inside
his heart lies Angelus. (This is why I find it interesting that
the Aztec Demon refused Angel's heart - for the rational reason
- it's not beating. Yet in Angel's pov it's because it was Angelus'/the
demon heart.
Non-heroic. ) Every time he lets his heart rule him - Angelus
jumps out.
Spike is the polar opposite - to Spike - his instincts, his heart
is his strength, he doesn't trust his head. It's an interesting
contrast.
She may not be Eve but the snake, who has already used sex
and constant proximity to insinuate herself into giving extremely
private council to Angel on his friends, on his son, on himself
-- for she, like the snake, and unlike Adam and Eve, already knows
all, has already bitten from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil -- in fact she did it under our very eyes just
to make a point -- so it only remains to ask whether she has eaten
from the true of eternal life as well. Is she, like the girl in
the white room, an immortal as well.
Hmmm, several people have brought up the comparison of Eve to
the little girl in the white room now. Fresne, JM. Which makes
me begin to wonder if you might be on to something.
Her look at the end of the Life of The PArty - when Angel asks
if she'd like to discuss their night of passion, is very reminiscent
of that little girl's look of dead coldness. Just as the way she
looks at Spike in the elevator is reminscent of this.
She also seems to taunt and manipulate Angel in the same way that
the little girl and the First Evil did. It's not like Lilah so
much - Lilah actually seemed afraid of Angel.
Eve isn't. Eve in fact doesn't appear to fear anything.
So maybe she is the snake?? Curious to see what they plan on doing
with her. So far the only one who seems to question her act -
is Spike. Just as Eve and to a small degree Fred are the only
ones who seem to see through Spike's act.
Hmmm...your comments, JM's, pumpkinpusses seem to put a different
spin on how Spike is being used in these episodes.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Singer of Tales (spoilers
for the latest angelic) -- fresne, 11:50:53 11/14/03 Fri
There's also a certain epithet-ness, in the classic sense, to
Spike's comments.
In paraphrase,
So, we're ruling out the progeny of a human and a robot.
So, we're ruling out a psycho demon.
Brave Odysseus. Wine dark sea. Like um and well and hmmm, only
poetic. Verbal placeholders to distract the eye from what the
hand is doing. The eyes see. The ears hear.
Hiding in plain look at me, look at me, sight.
Spike is all about symbols. Deeds as metaphor. Names as power.
Masks as chameleon shift.
Although, presumably, he can't do plaid.
With all these references to Echer, I can't help but think of
Labrynth. Labrys. The Winchester Mystery House. Lines of
intersection.
There's also an element of fact finding to Spike's donning of
the fool's robe. I have a friend who does something very similar.
Looking for what gets a reaction and how. Sonar in the emotional
dark to define shapes.
And just in some random...
Wesley speaks to both his father and his mother in that call.
His mother thought him quite the prodigy. People who are emotionally
abusive of their children, don't tend to stop there. I wonder
what Wesley's mother is like.
Winnifred, containing the male and the female in a name, Wonder
Woman, Amazon. Both parents are yet living.
Not Wesley decapitated his last girlfriend, but he chopped her
up.
Not Spike vamped his mother, then she tried to shag him, but a
repletion of the word, kill. Killing the mother twice.
9 - shots to kill the father - the perfect number. Three trinities.
Dante would be so happy. Wesley, whether he remembers it or not,
his first gift from Lilah was a copy of Inferno.
"You'll never take me to hell, Pavane!" No, it's much
more of a folk dance to hell, involving sets and figures and change
partners and blurring lines.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dante / Inferno /
Hell question -- Darby, 06:10:57 11/15/03 Sat
Could there be parallels between the circles of Dante's Hell,
or his progression in Inferno and the story arc this season?
Could someone with more literature background than I think on
this a bit?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dante /
Inferno / Hell question -- Rufus, 22:15:29 11/15/03 Sat
Back to the beginning.......
Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to
popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For
untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home,
their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase
on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for
man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks,
certain creatures...
How's that for ungrateful....mortal animals become the chosen
ones to navigate hell.....;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Balance.
-- Arethusa, 06:13:40 11/16/03 Sun
Didn't the First Evil say that when demons outnumbered humans
on earth, it would become corporeal again? I wonder if some kind
of cosmic balance was tipped when humans first outnumbered demons,
or if humans found a way to use the demons' magic and created
a spell?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And!
-- Arethusa, 06:22:28 11/16/03 Sun
What if W&H is trying to get Angel and Co. to make peace with
the demons so they'll stop killing them, and the number of demons
can increase, thereby tipping the balance? They helped everyone
fight the FE because they want to have control over the results.
Demonification through procreation.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
LOL.... -- Rufus, 01:00:34 11/17/03 Mon
Yeah the numbers bit came up in Chosen....
BUFFY
Have you ever considered a cool name? I mean, since you're incorporeal
and basically powerless. How about "The Taunter?" Strikes
fear in the heart-
CALEB/FIRST
I will overrun this Earth. And when my army outnumbers the
humans on this Earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.
At least I can say at this point I don't know what is going on
other than the fact that Jasmine had done something to the balance
by getting rid of the Ra-tet. Doesn't mean we will get a replacement-tet,
just something else will get a promotion. I do think that Angel's
choice to change Connors reality may figure in big time as well.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Perhaps "Faust"
might be more fitting? -- RadiusRS, 01:23:17 11/16/03 Sun
[> [> [> [> [> [> this is great stuff!
-- sdev, 10:45:05 11/16/03 Sun
[> [> [> [> [> eve/snake: yes & no -- anom,
12:02:50 11/14/03 Fri
"And Eve may be misnamed. She may not be Eve but the snake...for
she, like the snake, and unlike Adam and Eve, already knows all,
has already bitten from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil -- in fact she did it under our very eyes just
to make a point...."
On the yes side, she tosses Angel a whole, unbitten apple, unlike
the Biblical Eve, who in fact had bitten the fruit before
she passed it on to Adam. I don't think of the serpent of Eden
as having bitten the fruit, or as necessarily knowing both good
& evil...being "cunning" or "subtle" (& there's
a word I'd never apply to Eve!) seemed to just be its nature.
Since, as Eve points out, we don't know if she really is either
young or a woman, she might not have needed to go through the
human route of learning good from evil.
And the gang is about to get a much closer look at evil than they've
had before--not just its ugly (or sometimes deceptively pretty)
face or how to figure out & stop its plans, but its inner workings.
What they're going to have to do figure out now is how to dissect
out the good from the evil--sometimes literally, like Fred trying
to separate the cybernetic from the organic components of the
cyborg in Lineage. They'll have plenty of knowledge (incl. some
they might rather not) & near-godlike power, but learning to use
it well ain't gonna be as easy as biting an apple.
On the no side, I'm working from memory here, but I'm pretty sure
Eve didn't bite the apple (on the show, not in the Bible!). I
know it had no bites out of it when she tossed it to Angel, but
did she take her own bite after he did? And Angel's biting it
was defiant, in response to her asking if he was scared; not at
all a simple "she gave him of the fruit & he ate." (Hmm,
suppose he'd sunk his fangs into it instead of biting it like
a human? Whole different symbolism!) Unlike the snake, she doesn't
try to tempt the team; she certainly doesn't tell them the consequences
they're worried about won't happen, as the snake tells Eve in
the Garden, no, you won't die if you eat the fruit.
In fact, she doesn't seem to be trying to convince them to eat
the apple at all--she explicitly says (not word for word; I don't
have it on tape) it's to get the clichZ out of the way, i.e.,
don't expect this to be like the story you all know from Genesis.
After all, Wolfram & Hart is hardly the Garden of Eden.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Eve and the snake --
alcibiades, 07:09:14 11/16/03 Sun
Thanks for the correction for the faulty memory on the apple.
In fact, she doesn't seem to be trying to convince them to
eat the apple at all--she explicitly says (not word for word;
I don't have it on tape) it's to get the clichZ out of the way,
i.e., don't expect this to be like the story you all know from
Genesis.
After all, Wolfram & Hart is hardly the Garden of Eden.
Well, no, if it is anything, it would be the mirror world, the
garden of Evil. But I wouldn't accept anything Eve says at face
value -- otoh, I don't believe that Eve is "Eve." But
ME did give her that name for a reason and then they made a dramatic
point of it, a scene within a scene, that actually echoed an earlier
scene in Angel, Holtz offering the apple to Wesley. Wesley, btw,
refused to bite.
In any case though, Angel, having removed free will from the others,
is definitely living in a post-apple-eaten reality. And one by
one his friends are getting corrupted too, although less obviously.
I don't think of the serpent of Eden as having bitten the fruit,
or as necessarily knowing both good & evil...being "cunning"
or "subtle" (& there's a word I'd never apply to Eve!)
seemed to just be its nature. Since, as Eve points out, we don't
know if she really is either young or a woman, she might not have
needed to go through the human route of learning good from evil.
Well she may not know good, but she definitely knows evil. She
is certainly cunning. As to whether she is subtle -- it depends
on her agenda. She certainly doesn't act explicitly as if she
is subtle -- nevertheless, she is always talking into Angel's
ear, discomforting him subtly about his responses to his friends.
And in a short time, Angel has started talking to her. In Lineage,
she mentions Connor, and unlike Conviction, Angel doesn't take
her head off. I think that was put in there for us to measure
the difference in the reaction shot, as it were. She has insinuated
herself far more firmly into his world and relationships already
than one might have suspected -- has a private relationship with
him unlike any of the others. And the fact that they boffed already
has subtly changed the climate as well.
So it really depends what Eve is there to accomplish ultimately
with Angel, as to whether or not her means are subtle.
[> [> Re: Or perhaps it's the Right Rabbit Hole? :-)
(Spoilers 5.7) -- Rufus, 04:17:50 11/14/03 Fri
"You were only a puppet for PTB and now W&H, why not
be one for us?"
Roger RoboPryce: He's a puppet, he always has been. To the
Power's that Be, to Wolfram and Hart.....now he's ours.
Makes me wonder if Angel would be singing the undead body electric
with these guys?
[> [> A Question of Fred -- DorianQ, 03:12:29
11/15/03 Sat
Maybe it's me imagining things, but does Fred seem a lot more
confrontational this year than even at the end of last year. She
has already chewed out Wes over being to overprotective of her
(Lineage) and Lorne over not identifing her as a woman (TCToNC)
and Angel over not doing more to help Spike (Hellbound). It might
be the mindwipe, but Connor didn't have much to do with her personal
arc, and if Wes remembers Lilah's demise, Fred would probably
remember dating Gunn and Professor Seidel. She almost seems like
an amalgamation of Fred of past seasons, Cordelia in her later
years on the show, and Buffy at the end of her run. Is this just
in my head or is anyone else picking up on it.
[> [> [> two more (spoilers through Angel 5.7)
-- sdev, 23:13:08 11/15/03 Sat
She was quite gruff with her science department in Ep 1 Convictions
when she was pushing them to come up with the antidote to the
mystically triggered WMD.
Also, she keeps pusing at Angel. She questioned his decision to
let Spike go to the devil (pun intended)in Hellbound, and in Cautionary
Tale she jumped right on him, at Spike's instigation, for beating
up Numero Cinquo in the opening sequence.
Fred was perhaps already angry as the only one who was not prepared
to accept the W&H offer at the end of Home when Angel announced
his "executive decision" to take the deal. With her
background the seduction of W&H is perhaps not as great. She comes
from an academic background, a large institutional setting with
resources and prestige of its own. She's been in the belly of
the beast to a certain extent before.
[> Eve -- Kenny,
14:10:58 11/13/03 Thu
I really loved this ep. I like the Angel's free will was stolen.
Perhaps that's why Angel wasn't as upset with Wes as you think
he should be. Maybe it's Angel throwing Wes a bone because he
saved Angel's will, whereas Angel himself was happy enough to
mess with other people's minds in order to achieve his own goals.
But that's not really what I care about right now. I'm curious
about Eve. She's brought up Connor and the mindwipe at times that
it's really not even necessary for exposition. We're all very
aware of the magic/consequence thing in the Buffyverse. I wonder
if Eve isn't somehow part of the consequence of Angel's reconstruction.
Maybe she's connected to Connor/lost memories in some way. Maybe
she's supposed to keep reminding Angel of what he's done. For
some reason, from the beginning, I thought she might somehow be
connected to Cordy. Cordy's the only member of the group who's
had to live through Spike, so she'd be less inclined to trust
or like him, soul or no.
I'm probably way off, but I figured it's at least grist for the
mill.
Oh, and speaking of PTB (not that I really was), what are they
up to these days? I'm guessing they weren't pleased with Jasmine's
actions, so they should be happy with what Angel's done. Yet they
ignore him once it's over. This new group that's after Angel...could
it be related to the PTB? He's turned his back on them, they still
need him, so they'll make him work for them. They have to figure
back in some fashion, and I'm really interested to see how that
might be.
[> [> Re: Eve -- JM, 16:05:58 11/13/03 Thu
Actually wondered if they were connected to a Jasmine type cult,
what with the robo-evolution theme and the free will theme.
I was thinking that Eve might be bringing up Connor for two reasons.
She's cementing her intimacy and access to Angel as the only one
who knows his secret, the only one he can share with. She's also
cementing the deal by continually reminding him of the REAL reason
he, and his friends, are at W&H.
Interesting spec though, may not be right, but there is something
there.
And thanks for being at least interested in Eve. I loved Lilah,
but I'm beginning to get that I'm the only Eve fan in the universe.
I've liked her from the beginning. She's got such a little-girl-in-the-white-room
vibe to her, but all grown up, and maybe not magically powerful.
But maybe. . .
[> [> [> Re: Eve -- fresne, 17:18:58 11/13/03
Thu
No, I quite like Eve.
I keep getting the nicest vibe off the non-expression thing that
she does at certain moments. The juxtaposition of "I'm Evil's
Cheerleader - Go Evil" and then wipe. Dead. The object of
gaze is neither interesting nor boring. It exists. Crush. Don't
crush. Let cold, deadening, down, creep into the voice and eyes
and heart.
I do something similar when I'm really, really, and I mean really,
annoyed.
Since, my own totally unspoiled and I never want ME to answer
this speculation, is that Eve was internally devoured in some
unholy and yet playfully fun Santa Cruz ritual up in Elfland or
the in the Hall faces. Yeah, the Hall of Faces, down in Hell Hole,
this cave that you crawl through for about 40 minutes sidewise.
I'd say during the '89 earthquake, but I had some friends who
were there at the time and they'd have noticed someone being devoured.
Unless, Barbara is now an Architect of Eviiiil. Hmmmm...
Anyway, now something sits and watches and okay, really is Evil's
intern.
[> [> [> [> Re: Eve -- Kenny,
17:44:42 11/13/03 Thu
I'm guessing there's a small pro-Eve contingent. I'm hoping for
a good story there. I'm really not convinced she's totally evil.
It'd be a real kick if she was actually a mole for the PTB. Considering
there's a W&H mole, it'd prove a very nice balance.
[> [> [> [> Re: Eve -- jane, 22:25:22 11/13/03
Thu
I agree, Eve is starting to intrigue me. She doesn't have the
seductiveness of Lilah, but there is something about her just
slightly off centre. She gives me the creepiest feeling. I found
the elevator scene with Spike interesting, especially the "What
makes you think the amulet was meant for Angel" bit. I have
this theory that the amulet was actually meant for Buffy, which
would give W&H a huge club to hold over Angel.;)
Really liked this episode, and agree with much of the analysis
of posters before me, who expressed my thoughts better than I
can!
[> [> [> [> Re: Eve -- Claudia, 14:56:00
11/17/03 Mon
What I find interesting about both Lilah and Eve is that their
personalities do not seem to match their looks.
If you look at Lilah, she seemed to be the physical embodiment
of the "femme fatale" character from noir. She has the
slinky figure, a hairstyle similar to both Lauren Bacall and Veronica
Lake, the long legs and husky voice. And yet . . . the moment
her mouth opens or when her character kicks in, she doesn't remind
me of a character straight out of the pages of a Raymond Chandler
or Dashiell Hammet novel. Instead, she reminds me of a character
from Shephard Mead's "How to Succeed in Business Without
Really Trying" - you know, the ruthless corporate executive
on the rise.
Eve, on the other hand, looks as if she could be a successor to
either Doris Day or Meg Ryan. Physically, she looks like Career
Girl, personified. The girlish figure, blondish hair, and perky
voice. But her personality seems to be another matter. Eve has
a subtle and sly manner that strongly reminds me of the many femme
fatale characters from the movies and novels from the 1940s and
50s. I think the woman has nerves of steel - something I've never
really seen in Lilah.
[> Agreement on Eve -- mamcu, 08:58:13 11/15/03 Sat
Eve should be carrying the weight of the female in the mythic
patterns of the show, with her name, role, etc. Instead, she seems
like an intruder from some cop show or sit com. Often I don't
even recognize her, and she certainly doesn't resonate.
I'm really sad to hear that the part should have gone to Monica
Baccarin. She would have been wonderful.
[> [> Correction -- cjl, 11:32:52 11/17/03 Mon
The actress playing Eve is Sarah Thompson, not Susanna Thompson.
Sarah T. was a regular on Boston Public; Susanna T. played Billy's
first wife on Once and Again and the Borg Queen on Voyager.
Come to think of it, Susanna T. wouldn't have been a bad choice
for Eve.
[> [> [> Satisfied -- Claudia, 15:16:48 11/17/03
Mon
I'm satisfied with the choice of Sarah Thompson, as Eve. On the
surface, she hardly seemed like the femme fatale type. But when
she interacts - especially with Angel, Thompson does a great job
of expressing her subtlety and mystery. She did an even better
job in the elevator scene with Marsters.
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