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re. spoilers - an appeal (or, Why I Love BtVS) -- Anneth, 12:43:54 05/07/03 Wed

In the last week alone, I've run across four unmarked future spoilers. I don't want to stop reading the board or going into chat for the next two weeks, so all I can say is, please please please mark future spoilers in your subject line (and don't mention them in chat w/o first ascertaining whether anyone minds). Spoilers include names of unaired eps, future castings, and teasers. Remember, not everyone watches the teasers. Please don't assume that just because they air, everyone does. Some people don't get them in their areas and some people simply don't watch them. It's also a spoiler to tell who, if anyone, is going over to AtS next year. Implying such is also a spoiler.

Last year, I learned from an unmarked future spoiler that Spike would get his soul back at the end of the season. I'm still bitter. Y'know why? Because when ME says "jump," I say "how high?" And I like it that way. Buffy the Vamire Slayer is about the only television show, possibly some of the only visual entertainment, where I'm almost totally at the mercy of the writers. My disbelief isn't just suspended, it's hanged, drawn, and quartered. I can completely immerse myself in the story and I love it that way. I think it's a huge credit to the writers that they have that much power over me, that they can create a world that so totally enthralls me. Spoilers destroy that. I don't want to know where the writers are going; I take pleasure in the chase, in guessing. In analyzing and re-analyzing episode by episode, trying to figure out what's a valid clue and what's merely mislead. I love being wrong as much as I enjoy feeling that I've figured something out. I don't want to know what's going to happen.

There are only 2 more episodes of Buffy left, ever. Please, don't ruin that for me or anyone else. Mark your future spoilers.

[> Re: re. spoilers - an appeal (or, Why I Love BtVS) -- O'Cailleagh, 20:33:54 05/07/03 Wed

I really feel compelled to add my voice to Anneth's appeal. I agree with everything she said. I'd also like to add the following:
One of the reasons I come to this board (and its the only Buffy board I frequent), is for the intellectual stimulation provided by the mostly excellent posters here. I've noticed lately that its becoming more and more difficult to enjoy and read the posts without leaving myself open to various plot points that I haven't yet seen, indeed, I have already been spoiled for a number of things. On reviewing the board's spoiler policy (to be found via a pretty blue link at the top of the page) I found that it quite clearly states that spoilers MUST be marked in the subject line, regardless of whether they are for future episodes, or recently aired ones. A similar rule applies to chat, the upshoot being that there is a chatroom specifically for spoilery chat over on the Spoiler Trollop site/page/thingy. Why is it that when these rules have been in place for so long, so many people have a blatant disregard for them?
I don't want to sound like a complete bitca, but it is unfortunate that there seem to be so few people here willing to follow these simple rules, or show common courtesy. Mini-rant over.

O'Cailleagh

PS not looking to start another flame-war, so lets not. <:-)

Bad Plans and Dumb Luck - the new Buffy paradigm (spoilers to Touched) -- Darby, 13:09:29 05/07/03 Wed

If the vineyard had been full of Bringers, Buffy would have been toast, unable to evade everybody before Caleb caught her. Yet she waltzes in, no back-up, expecting to search the place while not being killed, find something that might have been difficult to transport, and escape. Wha - huh????

Shades of the Ubervamp plan. Oh, wait, the non-plan.

Weren't we expecting a rested, loved Buffy to, you know, be able to think better?

I'm beginning to suspect that Joss has a bit more misogynist in him than maybe he's aware of. He doesn't really expect Buffy to use her brain for more than hair support. Or Faith, apparently.

Or am I wrong? Has Buffy really always been this way?

[> Re: Bad Plans and Dumb Luck - the new Buffy paradigm (spoilers to Touched) -- Vickie, 13:30:34 05/07/03 Wed

Actually Faith used to act this way all the time (Bad Girls, Consequences). Buffy has always been a little more thoughtful, though she has her impulsive side.

I really had a hard time with the solution to Buffy's weird behavior being she just needed a nap. I was expecting a prophetic slayer dream to give her clues or something. This was (so far) just unsatisfying. They have two more episodes to prove me wrong (as they always have so far), add the spin that makes it all make sense, and wrap it up.

Good luck, ME.

[> [> Re: (spoilers to Touched, and unspoiled future spec) -- Alison, 14:28:08 05/07/03 Wed

I think that Buffy may have had some sort of prophetic/visionary dream that we will hear about between now and the finale. The note she wrote to Spike may also be adressed.

[> [> Disagree with your interpretation of these events. ('Touched' spoilers) -- Rob, 21:25:35 05/07/03 Wed

For starters, as you said, something may have happened while she sleeped. Personally, I'm hoping that it was another visitation from Joyce, which would nicely round out the two earlier in the year, and perhaps finally explain which of the two times was really her, both, none, or one of them.

But even if there is nothing else, I thought Buffy needing to rest was important. It reflected back to what Joyce told her in "Bring On the Night." Also, it gave her clarity. In a backwards way, being kicked out of the house was the best thing for her, because she was able to better focus. With all the girls in the house a constant reminder of the weight of the world on her shoulders, no wonder she had such trouble figuring out how to succeed. But separated from them she is able to better formulate a plan. And it's a pretty darn good one, IMO. She had been going about it the wrong way, trying to use force against an incorporeal being. And then there's Caleb, who is too strong for her force to harm. Since she couldn't use force against the First, she decided instead to use that same tactic in standing up to Caleb. She will use no force, but still outwit and outmaneuver him. It's incredible what perspective a nap can give you. Not totally ruling out that she had another vision, but I kind of like the simplicity and purity of it just being a nap that helped her.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: Disagree with your interpretation of these events. ('Touched' spoilers) -- Mystery, 06:12:58 05/08/03 Thu

I also think that it helped a great deal knowing that Faith was still there with the girls. They still had a protector, so Buffy can actually not worry about them so much. I mean, really can you see Buffy leaving the house full of green potentials to just the Scoobies? The fact that Faith also connected with them helps ease her mind as well.

I think Buffy knowing that the world doesn't SOLELY rely on her, can now do her job so much better. She's not bogged down by the pressure. Her strength and focus isn't spread out between million different tasks. She's finally figuring out she can delagate the details, and share the burden of being the Slayer with Faith.

[> [> [> Fighting and feminism -- dream of the consortium, 07:28:29 05/08/03 Thu

She had been going about it the wrong way, trying to use force against an incorporeal being. And then there's Caleb, who is too strong for her force to harm. Since she couldn't use force against the First, she decided instead to use that same tactic in standing up to Caleb. She will use no force, but still outwit and outmaneuver him.

I also like that she used her smaller size and greater agility ("feminine" attributes) to her advantage against brute strength ("masculine" attribute). Nice to see some of that Back-to-the-Beginning girl power, particularly against such a misogynistic foe.

[> [> [> OMG, I wrote that late! Should of course be 'While she SLEPT' not 'SLEEPED'! -- Rob, a very embarassed English major, 08:02:55 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Bad Plans and Dumb Luck - the new Buffy paradigm (spoilers to Touched) -- vertigo, 14:13:00 05/08/03 Thu

lets face it the show has always been this way,Buffy has proven that she's a great leader and she also has her impulsive side..but up into now she has always stumbled into clues/weapons to win...

[> Re: Bad Plans and Dumb Luck - the new Buffy paradigm (spoilers to Touched) -- dub ;o), 14:15:07 05/07/03 Wed

Well, she's always trusted her instincts, Darb. Her instincts told her that whatever Caleb had of hers, it was in the Vineyard winecellar.

Buffy's entrance into the winecellar last night reminded me of nothing so much (as far as her attitude went) as Buffy picking up that crossbow and marching out to kill the Master in her damp prom dress in Prophecy Girl. It had the same feeling. The Master had actually killed her; Caleb had killed others, but he'd only roughed her up a bit.

It made me want go go, "YESsssssssss!!!" and make weird gestures with my fingers like young people do these days.

Go, Buffy! It's your birthday!!

(What the heck does that mean, anyway?)

;o)

[> [> Re: Bad Plans and Dumb Luck - the new Buffy paradigm (spoilers to Touched) -- CW, 14:37:28 05/07/03 Wed

Just don't make wierd finger gestures, like us old people did in our day! ;o)

At least we got a one second 'heads up' that the bringers needed rousing. So it was possible for Buffy to sneak in. Need not go into the quality of Faith's and the FE's generalshiip more except to say that oxy-acetelyne torch set (the thing with the red and green metal cylinders)in the weapons stash would have set me running the other way. In that cramped sewer it would have made a very effective bomb all by itself.

[> We might be missing an important part of the story, though (spoilers to Touched) -- WickedSomnambulist, 16:55:19 05/07/03 Wed

We have no idea how long she slept - or what the note to Spike said.

(Kudos for being able to slip out AND write a note without waking him. Guess that's where the term "sleeping like the dead" comes from?)

She certainly was well rested, full of ki and had 110% confidence in herself. Brittle Buffy was gone.

Maybe the First Slayer played a visit and decided to stay longer?

Ater all the posts and dialogue pointing out the "rest" theme, maybe something finally DID happen during that time, something very important and creating a tremendous change in Buffy. (Not saying Spikes speech and her own soulsearching wasn't part of it,too. It was some kind of synergy that created such a startling transformation. ME has a reason we might not be clued into yet.

[> [> I agree. We don't know what happened... ('Touched' spoils) -- Rob, 21:19:33 05/07/03 Wed

from the time Buffy woke up to the time we saw her at the vineyard. Just because we didn't see an exciting Buffy-beats-the-Bringers-to-arrive-at-Caleb's-doorstep scene doesn't mean one didn't happen. From the moment she approached Caleb this time, Buffy was more confident and had a look of utter conviction on her face that wasn't there before, even when she claimed to be confident before. Part of it may be that she's acting alone now. She doesn't have to worry about all the other girls and all the lives at stake. They are of course part of the deal by extension, but this time being a lone Slayer might be working out for her. Without all those girls in front of her that she knows are probably going to die, she is able to focus better on her goal. I thought when Buffy appeared at the end of act 3, it was very powerful. In the mood she was in when she arrived at Caleb, I wouldn't be surprised if she beat up 30 bringers on her way there. She had that look in her eyes.

Rob

[> [> [> And I reagree with what you agreed with.. ('Touched' spoils) -- WickedBuffy, 22:36:59 05/07/03 Wed

She was like a different person, or, the same person from long ago - the kind I was waiting to see.

Either that or she was secretly audtioning for the third Matrix movie.

Weird, weird news...but might be cool. (vampire-related, Anne Rice, not BtVS) -- Rob, 14:15:28 05/07/03 Wed

From ew.com:

Revamped

Elton John brings Anne Rice's vampires to Broadway. He and lyricist Bernie Taupin are turning ''The Vampire Lestat'' into a musical by Gary Susman

Vampires haven't done too well on Broadway lately, but that's not stopping Elton John, who announced yesterday that he and Bernie Taupin, his longtime lyricist, are adapting a musical from Anne Rice's ''Vampire Chronicles'' series. Unlike the recent musical flop ''Dance of the Vampires,'' which closed in January after just 56 performances and a loss of $12 million, John and Taupin's musical would eschew capes, crosses, and tap-dancing bloodsuckers, they promised. ''It will be dark, sexy, and scary, but that doesn't mean it has to be cliche,'' Taupin said Tuesday at a New York press conference.

Called ''The Vampire Lestat'' (the musical will borrow from the Rice novel of that title, as well as her ''Interview with the Vampire'' and ''Queen of the Damned''), the play will be the first Broadway show for Taupin and the third for John, who also scored the Disney-produced ''The Lion King'' and ''Aida,'' both likely to still be running when ''Lestat'' opens in 2005. The musical's libretto will be written by Linda Woolverton and directed by Robert Jess Roth, both of whom filled the same roles for Disney's Broadway version of ''Beauty and the Beast.''

In another attempt to avoid cheese, John said his score will avoid rock instrumentation and use traditional orchestral instruments instead, as befits a story that goes back to the 1700s. ''I didn't see where any modern music could possibly come in without sounding ridiculous,'' he said.

The musical is likely to be the first production by Warner Bros. to reach the stage, attempting to follow Disney's example of turning its film properties into Broadway shows. The movie studio is also planning another musical about a bat-man, or rather, Batman, and is hoping to get Tim Burton to direct a musical version of his 1989 film. Let's hope ''Batman'' has better luck than ''Dance of the Vampires'' did; both are scored by Jim Steinman, best known for composing Meat Loaf's hits.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At first, I thought, "Pffft!" but then after reading the article, Elton John and Bernie Taupin together is a very good sign, and I do love musicals. I'm keeping my ears peeled for details in the future. Sounds intriguing. Hope they can pull it off while avoiding camp.

Rob

[> I just hope Elton doesn't demand to play Lestat himself. ::wondering if Madonna will be in it:: -- WickedBuffy (but it sounds kinda fun!), 17:31:03 05/07/03 Wed

Whats That Song -- AngelFan, 14:27:42 05/07/03 Wed

Does anyone know what the song on last nights buffy is. It was when they were all havin sex. It was something about love. If you know it would be a great help to me. Thanx

[> 'It's Only Love' by Heather Nova off the album 'South' -- Just Dropping By, 23:13:03 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> Re: 'It's Only Love' by Heather Nova off the album 'South' -- AngelFan, 04:50:29 05/08/03 Thu

Thanx.

OT - Do not, repeat DO NOT go see 'Extraordinary Gentlemen' -- KdS, 15:46:12 05/07/03 Wed

I went to see X-Men II this evening, which wasn't superb but was on balance worth the ticket price, and before the film they showed a trailer for League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. We are talking disaster, people. We are talking one of the best bits of metafiction of the last few years strapped down, raped and dumbed down for mouth-breathing Limp Bizkit fans who judge films on the size of the explosions and tits.

Allan Quatermain is Sean Connery doing a straight ageing action hero. Some young American dude has been tossed in as a buddy for him, and is also acting like a straight action hero. Mina is blatantly a vampire (it appears from the trailer that she turns into a flock of bats at one point). Guess the word "ambiguity" is foreign to the scriptwriters. The main Bad Guy appears to be the Phantom of the Opera. There is no sign of Campion Bond, and presumably therefore no sign of moral ambiguity or conspiracy theories either.

When Enterprise first started, one leftish American critic compared the contrast to the philosophy of earlier Trek series to a season of BtVS in which Buffy was a naked sex slave who spent most of her time chained to a bed. I thought that comparison was a bit overwrought, but it very clearly applies here. Do not go and see it, even out of morbid curiosity. Do not buy the DVD or video tape. If you must see it, download it from the sleaziest pirate website you can find. Whoever was involved in the creative process for this deserves penury. If Alan Moore doesn't sue to get his name removed from this, I wil lose all the considerable respect I have for him.

[> Wow. Uh, OK, warning heeded. (cjl, Alan Moore/LXG fan, stunned into silence.) -- cjl, 15:53:46 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> I'll wait to judge LXG -- Ray, 01:47:02 05/08/03 Thu

I'm not thrilled at the inclusion of Tom Sawyer (the American kid mentioned above). But, it's written by James "Starman" Robinson based on Moore's story. And just because Campion Bong isn't inthe trailer doesn't mean he's not in the movie.

[> 'Young American dude' -- Apophis, 16:11:52 05/07/03 Wed

They threw in Tom Sawyer to water down the Britishness. My question is this: Tom Sawyer was something like 10 years old before the Civil War. By the time LXG takes place (either the late 1880's or '90's, I've heard conflicting reports) shouldn't Sawyer be a considerably older than he's being presented? Also, they added Dorian Gray, who's now immortal.
And what's with replacing the Doctor (Fu Manchu) with the Phantom of the Opera? Fu Manchu wanted to conquer the world; all the Phantom did was stalk a singer.
Also, Alan Moore won't sue or any such thing. He doesn't really care about movies based on his work (see From Hell) and he's got one foot in the comic book retirement grave anyway.

[> [> They're all odd ages in the original -- KdS, 16:19:36 05/07/03 Wed

There's an "Annotated League" site on the web
http://www.enjolrasworld.com/Jess%20Nevins/League%20of%20Extraordinary%20Gentlemen/LoEG%20index.htm
which discusses the age issues in more detail than most people would want to know.

I also believe that Fu Manchu was left out because Sax Rohmer lived until after WWII and the Fu Manchu stories are still in copyright. In the comic they just barely got away with it by never using his actual name (he's just called "the Doctor") and I don't think they wanted to take the risk for a film.

And I wouldn't say Alan Moore was close to retirement given he's currently writing League, Tom Strong, Promethea and Tomorrow Stories.

[> [> Re: 'Young American dude' -- pr10n, 18:56:00 05/07/03 Wed

This is supposed to be the older Tom of Tom Sawyer, Detective fame. Too bad Philip Pullman's "Sally Lockhart" isn't more popular (or even recognized). She would be a great female alternative to Tom Sawyer here.

[> Sean Connery as Alan Quartermain? I'm SO THERE DUDE! -- ZachsMind, 16:33:33 05/07/03 Wed

"Why, it's not creeping! This creeping terror is clipping along just fine, at a healthy brisk pace!"

[> Also... -- Indri, 17:43:05 05/07/03 Wed

I understand Mina Murray's role has been both watered down and changed a great deal. She's no longer the leader (in so far as the League has one) and Allan Quartermain is. I'm not sure I can sufficiently express how much this and her vampirism annoys me: the whole point of Mina is that she's perfectly capable of holding her own in the company of such "dangerous men" through sheer force of will and intelligence, without any need of superpowers or gadgets.

About the only positive thing I have heard about the film so far is that they have managed to cast an actor of Indian origins as Nemo.

And yet... I may go and see it anyway. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is my favorite comic in years, as I've always been a fan of Victorian and Edwardian fiction. But I may end up chewing off my own foot as I watch it.

[> Sorry, Peta Wilson is in it; where she goes, I follow ;) -- Vash the Stampede, 18:50:24 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> You too Vash? And I thought it was just my friend Heather and I !! :) :) -- Kate, 19:33:20 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> Oh yeah, Peta is incredible! I wish she could get more work :( -- Vash the Stampede, 04:36:56 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Exactly!! I miss my weekly dose of her on LFN. :) -- Kate, 06:14:28 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> If Joss gets a spinoff made, maybe he could offer her a part! LOL -- Vash the Stampede, 08:46:13 05/08/03 Thu

'Touched': The Super-Evil Review -- Honorificus (She Who Is Sartorially Splendid), 16:30:17 05/07/03 Wed

Mood: disgruntled. Sure this ep had some fun stuff, like wondering what it would've been like to be the creamy middle in the Faith/Wood sandwich, but overall, it left me cold. Let's get to the why.

Fashion Statements
The Good
The low lighting. Took the edge off the worse fashion choices.

Dawn's red shirt at the beginning. That girl is yummy, in spite of her youth and innocence. But then, all the more fun to corrupt.

Faith, start to finish, particularly the black bra.

Wood, especially nekkid.

Willow's pajamas. I love pajamas!

Kennedy's come-hither little nightdress. Even I had to admire that one.

Loved Giles' sweater.

The Bad
Even the low light couldn't banish the specter of Andrew's clothing. What, do they go to thrift shops for his wardrobe?

Xander's plaid was particularly heinous this week.

Vi will never get off the "Fashion Don't" list, will she?

Buffy's coat. Ugh! I hate that thing. Where's her nice black leather jacket?

Plot in a Nutshell
Faith takes over while Buffy mopes. She interrogates a Bringer, gets a visit from ol' Dad Wilkins, and jumps Wood. Damn. A lot of sex later, Buffy bursts in on Caleb in an attempt to find her Toy Surprise. Faith discovers something that will go "boom".

Demonic Quibbles and Comments
Nice touch with Spike not needing an invite. The owner of the house is gone without intent to return, and a squatter like Buffy doesn't count as someone who makes her home there. Thus, Spike can walk right in.

Body Count
At least one Bringer.

Highlights
Chaos in the house. I was giggling. These guys don't have a freakin' clue, do they?

Spike ripping into the collective Scoobies. Fun!

The Spike/Faith fight. Couldn't figure out who I envied more.

Mayor Wilkins! How I've missed him. They just don't make villains like that anymore, you know? Down-home charm mixed with a nice dollop of homicidal depravity, yet not at all messy. I hate Buffy for blowing him up.

Andrew getting possessed by the Bringer. Suddenly, he was much more interesting.

Giles going all Ripper and slashing the Bringer's throat. Would that it had mystically decapitated Andrew.

Faith and Wood getting naked. Couldn't figure out who I envied more.

Xander and Anya sharing ice cream and bemoaning the boffing going on around the house.

The Potentials in close proximity to that bomb at the end. Yay!

Lowlights
The glut of Potentials, especially that stringbean Amanda with her wimpy voice and obsession with Robert's Rules. Get over it. Robert's Rules are for simpletons. The Demonic Order of Parliament is much more elegant: whoever rips the heads off the other leader-wannabes leads. Couldn't be simpler.

Buffy's pity-party and Spike's resultant speech. As if we needed further proof he's gone over to the Fluffy Pink side of the Force. And then the cuddling and the Meaningful Gazing into each other's eyes . . . gah! I was vomiting, I'm telling you.

Willow and Kennedy having a Sweet Moment and then commencing with the shtupping, followed by Xander and Anya going at it, too. Yuck. Must scrub my brains clean of those images.

Buffy's cowardly game of tag with Caleb. Come on, woman, are you a Slayer or a wuss? What happened to going in half-cocked and getting beaten into jelly?

Faith being in proximity to the bomb. Hope it mulches the Potentials and amazingly enough avoids her.

Burning Questions
Are Caleb and the First having relationship problems? Is the magic gone so soon?

Where were the Potentials during the sex-a-thon? In the basement?

And where, for that matter, was Giles? In the backyard, obsessively cleaning his glasses?

What's with the Slayer Excalibur? Will it be as cheesy as it looks from here?

The Immoral of the Story
Never have sex in the Jossverse. It leads to things getting blown up.

Overall Rating
B under Qq(chartreuse) on the Non Sequitur Scale. Between all the shtupping and the sweetness, this one just lost me.

[> Re: 'Touched': The Super-Evil Review -- Maya, 16:41:24 05/07/03 Wed

***Buffy's coat. Ugh! I hate that thing. Where's her nice black leather jacket?***

Really?! You don't think that the brown suits her coloring a lot more than the black? I always thought blondes look better in warmer colors.

[> [> Buffy is a 'winter' not a 'spring', methinks -- WickedBuffy, 17:01:23 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> Buffy is a Summers (couldn't resist, sorry) -- lunasea, 17:19:24 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> LOL Lunasa! That hurt so bad it was funny! :> -- WickedBuffy, 17:33:48 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> What, are you blind? -- Honorificus (Who Is Every Season), 20:17:22 05/07/03 Wed

With her skin tone and eyes? Total spring. She'd look beautiful in coral.

However, that's not the point with the coat. The point, of course, would be the style, not the color. Fact is, you can get away with just about any color in a coat if the style is right. Were that brown jacket waist-length without any frills, it'd be perfect. As it is, it just doesn't do it for me. And what, after all, really matters?

[> [> [> [> You calling me a Bringer??? -- WickedStylin', 20:56:30 05/07/03 Wed

"fact is, you can get away with just about any color in a coat if the style is right. "

ayiiiiii

isn't it: fact is, you can get away with just about any style in a coat if the color is right.

[> [> [> [> [> No, Bringers have those nifty robes. -- Honorificus (Colorist Extraordinaire), 21:50:53 05/07/03 Wed

Whereas you seem to favor the "thong" look. Don't take this personally, but you have all the fashion expertise of Adam Sandler on barbituates. Paired with the right outfit, and on the right woman, a slim-cut chartreuse duster could be stunning. However, put even the smallest amount of pseudo-Southwestern fringe (which approximately .000001% of the population can wear without looking idiotic and/or pretentious) on the thing and it's WRONG, WRONG, WRONG in any color. Granted, a good color may rescue a bad style from Sartorial Hell, but a bad style will condemn any color there. That brown coat Buffy had on? The color wasn't good enough to redeem the style.

Thus speaks Honorificus, The Seventh Evil.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I fret about the Bringers footwear. Barefoot? Birkenstocks? Medievel Wingtips? -- WickedBuffy ( Lazy Dresser Ordinaire ), 22:32:02 05/07/03 Wed

I've never studied Adam Sandlers philosophies on fashion, so I must take your word on his penchant for thongs. How long did you study under him?

Still, I would favor a world filled with every color imaginable in just one style - than no color in a millon styles.

Buffys coat didn't symbolize redemption, it symbolized her struggle to rise above the mud of despair. She just hadn't totally rinsed off yet. The polyester flimsiness of the coat mirrored the strikingly straight, flat hairstyle she's chosen to wear to the Apocalypse.

Thus Speaks WickedInsertAnyWordHereIPlease, The Pre-Evil.

Added query: Buffy's Best Hairstyle Ever?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Tevas -- Dead (but well-shod) Soul, 23:36:03 05/07/03 Wed

[> That was great! Do we all get a try at the Burning Questions? (spoilers to Touched) -- WickedBuffy, 17:27:05 05/07/03 Wed

"Are Caleb and the First having relationship problems? Is the magic gone so soon?

They were on rocky ground in the scene before Buffy got there. The First was completely frustrated. It wanted to have sex and snap someone's head off - have fun touching like the rest of them (except Giles). I'm sure puberty was hell on the First. So imagine thousands of years of no touchy-no feely.... FE is about to explode.

Caleb got to have all the fun, gutting and punching, and he took it all for granted. He was totally oblivious to The Firsts needs and desires. A real boyfriend would have let The First jump into his body to have his way with everything within a 200 mile radius. Which might have worked to Giles benefit, also.

The magic is gone. Caleb is just another insensitive jerk with no empathy for the incorpreal.

"Where were the Potentials during the sex-a-thon? In the basement?"

Nope, they were innocently out getting ice cream. (Why do I have the feeling that if Amanda had heard all the noises going on, she would have grabbed a crossbow and rallied the others to go save Faith, Wood, WIllow, Anya, Xander and Wood from some mysterious thumping demon?)

Andrew was taping most of the action inside various closets, as usual.

Xander and Anya consider the grunts of others and sharing Butter Brickle as foreplay - so they had theirs on the kitchen floor.

"And where, for that matter, was Giles? In the backyard, obsessively cleaning his glasses?"

Giles *was* in the backyard, pouting that he was the only adult in the episode who went untouched that night. He felt the writers were mocking him with the episodes title, as well.

"What's with the Slayer Excalibur? Will it be as cheesy as it looks from here?"

More so! It's a discarded prop from Siegfried & Roys Vegas magic act, drapped in holiday lights and somehow half-melted into a mound of hardened creamcheese. Buffys delighted grin was actually a painful grimace as she realized Only She Could Wield It. (SMG will probably have her stunt-double do all the touching of the thing.)

[> [> Not so burning question but... -- pr0ng, 18:44:27 05/07/03 Wed

Was the Bringer played by Michael Stipe? You know, as in "It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel blind."

[banishes self. "Begone!" zzzzz-poof]

[> Re: 'Touched': The Super-Evil Review -- Dead (an evil alter ego would be a tad redundant) Soul, 19:36:12 05/07/03 Wed

Buffy's coat. Ugh! I hate that thing. Where's her nice black leather jacket?

Word! She looked like she skinned Ubie and made herself a trophy coat of her own.

Dead (but always dressed for the ambiguities) Soul

It's another musical! (spoilers for Touched) -- cougar, 19:01:27 05/07/03 Wed

I think I discovered the underlying lyrics to the "just hold me" scene with Buffy and Spike. I was humming this all morning till it hit me. Here are the lyrics, a bit wonky from memory. Everything's conncted.

Sometimes when we touch
the honesty's too much
and I have to close my eyes
and hide

I want to hold you till I die
till we both break down and cry
I wanna hold you
till the fear in me subsides

Sometimes I want to break you
and drive you to your kness,
Sometimes I want to break through
and hold you in your sleep

Sometimes I understand you
and I know how hard you try
I've watched as love commands you
and I've watched love pass you by

I'm just another drifter
searching for the truth
A hesitant prize fighter
Still trapped within my youth

?????
?????
A brother or a sister
and then the passion flares again

What's next? Stairway to Heaven? Highway to Hell? Seasons in the Sun?(skinned our hearts and skinned our kness)

Oh God, now I'm getting all nostalgic. It is all so hard to bear!!!

[> Re: It's another musical! (spoilers for Touched) -- Maya, 21:20:20 05/07/03 Wed

Those lyrics sound REALLY familiar...especially the first stanza. What song is this?!?

[> [> The touching song is.. -- cougar, 21:37:02 05/07/03 Wed

I think it's "Sometimes When We Touch". I can't remeber who sang it. (I suppose I could have googled it!) It's at least 20 years old. A huge hit and a perenial favorite ever since. Also Bourne and Kratz skated to it a couple of years ago. Probably one the writers have heard a lot in their youth.

[> [> [> Re: The touching song is..mid-1970s -- Fred the obvious (and dated) pseudonym, 00:14:43 05/08/03 Thu

I loathed it then and like it no better now.

Of course, it was on about 15 times an hour when it was new.

[> [> [> [> Here it is -- Amkath, 09:47:21 05/08/03 Thu

Okay, it was bugging me that I couldn't remember all of the lyrics for that song. So for anyone else who cares, here are the complete lyrics. (It kinda does fit with Buffy and Spike) -

Sometimes When We Touch
DAN HILL

You ask me if I love you
And I choke on my reply
I'd rather hurt you honestly
Than mislead you with a lie

For who am I to judge you
In what you say or do
I'm only just beginning
To see the real you

Chorus
And sometimes when we touch
The honesty's too much
And I have to close my eyes
And hide
I wanna hold you till I die
Till we both break down and cry
I wanna hold you till the fear in me subsides

Romance's an honest strategy
Leaves me grappling with my pride
But through the years of maturity
Some tenderness survives
I'm just another writer
Still trapped within my truth
A hesitant prize-fighter
Still trapped within my youth

Chorus

At times I'd like to break you
And drive you to your knees
At times I'd like to break through
And hold you endlessly
At times I understand you
And I know how hard you try
I've watched whil love commands you
And I've watched love pass you by
At times I think we're drifters
Still searching for a friend
A brother or a sister
But then the passion flares again....

Chorus

[> [> [> [> [> Neat!! Thanks :o) -- Maya, 16:25:23 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the memory! -- Cougar, 19:19:07 05/08/03 Thu

Stunned into silence (possible spoilers for 'Home') -- RichardX1, 20:13:31 05/07/03 Wed

From the lack of posts regarding "Home" a whole hour after it ended, I'm guessing everyone was as shocked as I was.

Question: Which shocked you more: that everyone accepted W&H's offer, or that Connor was written out of the storyline?

Another question: How's he gonna kill Sahjan now?

Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic: ME knew the series wouldn't be picked up for another season and wrote this episode to make us want Angel cancelled. Discuss.

Now we'll never see the "Buffy-meets-Connor" storyline...

[> Re: Stunned into silence (definite spoilers for 'Home') -- Silky, 20:25:45 05/07/03 Wed

I don't want Angel cancelled - and I think Angel's sacrifice - giving up Connor so that Connor can be happy - was the perfect way to end the season. Besides - the Connor storyline had run its course.

I will be surprised to see Cordelia come back also.

But I was left wanting more - much more from next season. TV without a Joss show? Phffftt--why bother.

[> [> Re: Stunned into silence (definite spoilers for 'Home') -- maddog, 20:32:51 05/07/03 Wed

Agreed, that was the perfect ending...because this really was a finale after all, and what better way to end a season where what felt like the underlying story was Connor's fight to find a stable family life was to have him in one. No more fighting, no more hatred, just peace. As for the character of Connor, I know "his purpose" was to bring Jasmine to life, but that doesn't mean his purpose can't change. That he can't become more than just a means to an end.

I totally forgot about Cordy. I'd hate to think they'd lose their writer(Minear...did I spell that right?), Charisma and Vincent. I'm hoping one, if not both actors end up coming back. I'd miss Vincent somewhat, but Cordy's always been a favorite back to the Buffy days. She'll be missed greatly if she can't sign back on to the show.

[> [> [> Re: Stunned into silence (definite spoilers for 'Home') -- Ray, 01:32:37 05/08/03 Thu

I think it'd be interesting if the *new* Conner returned to the show. He'd have no memory of his crappy life and would be a stable person looking to learn about his roots. It'd be a great reversal, him seeking a relationship with Angel while Angel rejects him.

[> [> [> [> Re: Stunned into silence (definite spoilers for 'Home') -- lunasea, 12:51:27 05/08/03 Thu

It'd be a great reversal, him seeking a relationship with Angel while Angel rejects him.

Why would Angel reject him? Connor would make a great intern or mail room boy. He could use it to work his way through college. He could have a fatherly relationship with Angel because he doesn't think Angel is his father. Our parents aren't the only people that are important in our lives.

[> Re: Stunned into silence (possible spoilers for 'Home') -- maddog, 20:26:25 05/07/03 Wed

I never post first...I'm more of a reactionary. So thanks for starting a thread on this.

Well that's the beauty of leaving things open ended though. Say the trick from W&H is that the amnesia on Connor is only temporary. So a third of the way through the season all of a sudden he starts having vague memories of this past season...the next thing you know he's searching out the Angel crew...wanting to know more. So written out...maybe, but nothing's ever permanent...you should know that about this show by now.

It did leave me with one very big question....I realize this was mostly a pilot more than a finale....and I get why...but they didn't leave us with much to go on. Like what the hell happened to Gunn? Did that dog hypnotize him? But overall I just want to know the direaction that I keep hearing about...where are all of them going? I mean, will next year be about the lines that they may or may not have to cross to use the newly found info from W&H? There has to be more than that? I think so at least.

I don't think they had much of a choice...Angel more or less said yes...so if they wanted to stick with this group they had to say yes. And as you could tell by the look on her face Fred wasn't exactly fully on board...I think she just went with the flow in the end.

What did surprise me was that they erased their memory of Connor. I think they'd be happy to know that he's finally at peace with a real family and a real future. I know that put me at ease at the end of the show. I don't think it was a bad episode...I just think they had a specific purpose for it that you never see...a pilot disguised as a finale. Let's just hope the WB buys it cause I want this show back...I want this group of actors back...even if we lose Minear.

[> [> Please tell me you're kidding! **Spoilers for Home** -- dub, 20:43:08 05/07/03 Wed

Dog? You saw a DOG??!!

[> [> [> Dude, seriously. Non-Canine Kinski-McDowell Tree Climbing String Batter -- pr10n, 20:52:35 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> pr10n, I think it was actually the self-same one! -- dub ;o), 21:03:06 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> See these eyes of red? Oh wait that's Lorne :) -- pre-yawn, 21:09:10 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> 'And I'm putting out fi-yah....with gasoleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen' -- cjl, 21:41:19 05/07/03 Wed

Sorry. Bowie impression is a little rusty.

Is W&H recruiting Gunn as part of the new Ra-tet?

[> [> [> [> [> Either that . . . -- d'Herblay, 23:34:35 05/07/03 Wed

. . . or they're serious about Roy not being evil enough!

[> [> [> My bad...getting tired -- maddog, 21:17:11 05/07/03 Wed

Sorry, mistype...it was a black panther....I'm tired...remember east coast..it's getting late out here.

[> [> Not a dog -- RichardX1, 20:56:33 05/07/03 Wed

>>Like what the hell happened to Gunn? Did that dog hypnotize him?<<

It was a black panther.

[> [> [> Come on guys, one response to my oversight should have been enough -- maddog, 21:21:14 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> You're right, maddog -- pr10n, 21:29:35 05/07/03 Wed

I love that sort of sleepy disconnect -- no big deal of course, but onepella cat, heem largess! So, the humor. Sorry to bang one note.

[> [> [> [> I posted first -- RichardX1, 08:56:32 05/08/03 Thu

It's just that I had just made another post, so I had to wait a minute. So I checked on my e-mail. Then I posted. While I was waiting for the confirmation page to come up, I checked my e-mail again. After reading my e-mail I felt compelled to make some replies to some of the things I'd read. By this point, everyone else had posted their correction! So I end up looking like a retard.

And it was almost 12 hours ago, so I don't recall perfectly what happened; but I'm sure it's also partly AOL's fault.

[> [> [> Re: Not a dog -- just a coincidence, 22:09:11 05/07/03 Wed

Gunn. A black panther?

symbolism?

[> [> I agree -- more of a pilot than a finale! -- Steve, 21:07:26 05/07/03 Wed

Other open questions:

Just what exactly was the nature of deal Angel cut with The Senior Partners (or "compromise" as Angel put it)?

Did Angel have to kill Conner to allow him to be reinserted into his Idyllic Family(tm)? It sure looked like Angel was cutting Conner's throat there in the sporting goods store.

Just what did The Senior Partners do to magic up Conner's situation? Amnesia? Time fold, la Angel's brief trip to humanity in Season One? Wholesale re-engineering of reality, a la Dawn?

If so, are, say, Faith and Willow affected?

Will Lorne be able to pick up on Conner's existence the next time Angel sings?

Is Conner still a defacto superbeing?

Is Lilah going to stick around as The Angel Gang's link to the Senior Partners (a perfect inversion of Cordelia's role as link to the TPTB)?

What are The Senior Partners really up to? If, as is often proclaimed, they really are just interested in power, hence seeing good and evil as irrelevant constructs, will they be happy to go along with a "good" branch of W&H, just so long as it's powerful?

How much control will The Angel Gang really have over what goes on in the LA branch? Will they actually be in charge or will all the employees continue to get their real instructions from the Senior Partners?

Will The Angel Gang order W&H to betray their evil clients?

Can Lilah's contract ever be broken? Will she admit to loving Wes, as Wes has begun to admit loving her?

Why is Siegfried the evil one?

Finally, kudo's to ME for one of the best uses of a credits/commercial break I've ever seen.

[> [> [> Lilah must come back...She's too good of a character not to come back -- maddog, 21:19:34 05/07/03 Wed

[> I respect your point of view but... -- Wolfhowl3, 20:28:11 05/07/03 Wed

... Are you Nuts?

That was a great ending to the season, and it toke out Connor perfectly. (I'm sorry, but he was really getting on my nerves!)

I can not wait to see how the Fang Gang handles the power that they now wheild!

Bring on Season 5!

Wolfie

[> [> Actually, I liked it... -- RichardX1, 20:39:15 05/07/03 Wed

I just interpreted the total silence over tonight's episode as disapproval of the ending. I should have known better--if everyone hated an episode, VoyForums would have crashed from all the messages you guys would've posted.

[> [> [> Exactly!!!!! -- maddog, 20:40:15 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> It hasn't shown yet on the West Coast -- dub ;o), 20:44:32 05/07/03 Wed

[> D@mn ME...that sound after 'Home' ended would be (Spoilers for 'Home' and 'Touched' preview) -- Kate, 20:36:28 05/07/03 Wed

...my heart breaking!! :( I so did not think I was gonna cry for this finale - I didn't even cry during the scene in the sporting goods store with Angel and Connor and I found that to be totally emotional, but when Fred said, "Who's Connor," I just lost it. But that is what ME does best...break my heart in the most beautiful, poignant manner possible and then gets me to love it. lol Whata sucker I am. ;)

Richard - one of my first post-ep thoughts was that Angel wouldn't have to discuss his son with Buffy now next week. Kinda bummed about missing out on *that* conversation.

Wasn't shocked by them joining W&H 'cause I kinda knew that from reading quotes from JW regarding where S5 is gonna go, if it happens. But the Connor thing shocked me to my core. Totally relates back to "Sacrifice." What Angel did for Connor was unbelievably beautiful and loving...the true measure of a good parent is to do what is best for the child and Angel accomplished that, even though it meant he will never be (or so we're lead to believe) with his son again. I thought it was a perfect resolution to their story.

I loved this episode and think it is perfect in that if the series doesn't get picked up for a 5th season, then it was a good series finale. Somethings were brought to a close while other stories will live on to be told. If it does get renewed (keeping my fingers crossed), then I sure as heck can't wait to see where this ride goes next. This season has a been a wonderful payoff for sticking with a show that definitely had its ups and downs on the journey to find its own "voice," and I think S5 is gonna be even more spectacular!!

Final note: Wow! I don't think Cordelia has ever been this silent for this long!! lol

[> [> Re: D@mn ME...that sound after 'Home' ended would be (Spoilers for 'Home' and 'Touched' preview) -- Whited Sepulcher, 22:12:41 05/07/03 Wed

Angel seems to really like that memory-wiping thing with loved ones.

Buffy. Connor. This Forum could be NEXT.

[> [> [> LOL - true d'at!! -- Kate, 05:50:49 05/08/03 Thu

[> Re: Stunned -- Multiple pre-hugs to Masq -- pr10n, 20:54:27 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> Thanks... I needed them in a major way -- Masq, unabashed Vinnie fan, 05:04:04 05/09/03 Fri

[> But nobody's mentioned . . . (Spoilers for 'Home') -- Cheryl, 20:55:50 05/07/03 Wed

Webs!!! My favorite Buffy guest star of the season (although I don't know the actor's name - guess I'll have to rewatch). The guy who played Webs in Conversations with Dead People is the same guy who played W&H tour guide for Fred. Once again, ME keeps its best acting finds working.

[> [> Re: But nobody's mentioned . . . (Spoilers for 'Home') -- madog, 21:23:40 05/07/03 Wed

I noticed him right away. ME loves to reuse people. It's possible I suppose that once Buffy dusted him W&H could have scooped him up as bait for Fred...who frankly never seemed interested in him as much as the contents of the lab.

[> [> [> I actually clapped (Spoilers for 'Home') -- ponygirl, 07:14:26 05/08/03 Thu

HOLDEN!!!!

[> [> YEAH!!! (no spoilers inside...nothing inside! see?) ===> -- anom, 22:49:14 05/08/03 Thu

[> That silence would be... (spoilers for Home) -- ponygirl, 21:09:44 05/07/03 Wed

... a lot of muffled sobs.

Seriously, how am I supposed to sleep? I keep flashing back to Angel's dream at the start of the season... and there goes the sniffling. Damn this awful brilliant show.

[> Give me a break and some time...I've got notes to take....posts to think up....;):):):):):):) -- Rufus, 21:35:32 05/07/03 Wed

[> I really loved Angels hair in this episode. -- WickedBuffy, 23:00:10 05/07/03 Wed

I missed the show because I was at a post-party rave for the Dawsons Creek Finale.

Not.

It left me feeling good - about Connor (though this is the second time Angel has pulled the amnesia trick on a loved one, it might backfire the next time). And about all of them.

Mostly, I loved that black panther.

[> It's the sound of one hand clapping the sense back into my face -- Valheru, 23:17:56 05/07/03 Wed

Holy Hannah, that was one of the most gutwrenching things ME has ever done. When Connor helped that guy on the roof, I just knew he was finally climbing his way out of the abyss, only to watch him spiral even further out of control when he saw the pictures. Still, I expected Angel, Cordy, Lilah, Lorne, somebody to get through to Connor's heart and save him. When Angel showed up, the furthest thing from my mind was that he would actually kill his own son...and then the killing stroke. My jaw fell. "It was a trick," I told myself. "Angel only wounded him and knocked him out. W&H whisked Connor someplace safe and padded." But Fred's "Who's Connor?" confused me. And then the long limo drive to the middle of nowhere...

I haven't cried that hard from a TV show since "The Gift." It was as though the focal point of Angel's whole life for the past two years had been "IWRY"'d. Words cannot describe (at least, not tonight) how powerful that last scene was. To tie it together with the opening scene of the season was a masterstroke. It wasn't about Angel's family at all; it was about Connor's. *Snif* Joss, you dirty, evil little rodent man. And your little Minear, too!

[> [> Re: It's the sound of one hand clapping the sense back into my face -- d'Herblay, 23:36:34 05/07/03 Wed

"It wasn't about Angel's family at all; it was about Connor's."

That's making me mist up all over again.

[> Re: Stunned into silence (possible spoilers for 'Home') -- Mightor, 00:52:49 05/08/03 Thu

I was very sure they would join WRH because of the change in format I had heard about. I wasn't really surprised Connor was written out but I hoped they wouldn't because I think they never fully explored his potential. I was surprised at how they did it. I found that a bit annoying because I liked the existence of the character and I don't like that huge portions of seasons 3 and 4 now happened differently than how everyone remembers them.

However, trying to make sure nobody wants a season 5? Huh? And again huh? I think they made sure almost everybody does want another season.

[> Hate To Present A Dissenting View, But... -- Wizard, 02:23:45 05/08/03 Thu

... I fully expect the "Connor Solution" to backfire. Big time. I'm almost looking forward to it. Almost. Poor Connor- is the boy to never have any control over his own fate?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they way I interpreted it is: it is the Miracle Child's destiny to kill Sahjian, but somewhere along the way, Jasmine- or, to use her real name, Aahhhoohughhhhahh(sp) :) - co-opted his destiny to use him to bring her into the world. Well, Jasmine's gone. Sahjian is imprisoned in a jar, but he's not dead. All it will take is one thief looking in the wrong place for him to come back. And he'll go searching for the Miracle Child. And he'll find a student in the 'top tenth percentile,' who doesn't know who he really is, and doesn't stand a chance. And then he will kill that student, his family, and his vegan girlfriend. And then he'll go looking for Angel, to gloat and gloat and gloat. The only way this scenario will be avoided is in two ways: one- Connor is never seen or heard fro again, which I doubt will happen; two- Connor gets his memory back first.

After my initial outrage cleared up (I believe that, in all but the most extreme of circumstances, memory altering without the alteree's consent is WRONG ), I sat back, and thought about the situation. It is a parallel of Dawn's situation. Dawn, too, was inserted into a very loving family. Considering the circumstances, the Monks of Dagon did the right thing. Buffy is a force of nature when her heart is in the fight, and nothing gets her heart into a fight more than when a loved one is in danger. The situation of the Key and Glory fits my definition of extreme. Contrast this to Tabula Rasa, where the situation was nowhere near extreme. Hmm... one person deciding that she knew best, so she made a few changes without any permission or consent. Gee- is there a parallel here?

Willow wanted to make Tara forget, and genuinely wanted to make Buffy's life better. She thought she was doing this out of love. Angel thinks the same thing. And I will concede the point that he was doing it out of more real love than Willow (at that point in Will's life). Does this mitigate his actions, or make them worse? Consider the source. When Willow acted, it was out of a psychological need to assert control over a world which kept her down so often. When Angel acted, he went to the people who had spent three and a half years trying to kill or corrupt him, people who are evil to the core. He knew all this about W&H, and he did it anyway. This makes it worse. He betrayed his principles and gave in to people he knows are evil, so that he can impose his will on his son, and take away Connor's choices, Connor's free will- hell, he took away Connor! Everything Angel did in this season was to preserve humanity's power to choose, and Angel took away the choice of the person he arguably loves most. This parallels how Jasmine could make everyone else all shiny and happy, but not Connor. Connor said it best, when he was talking about how lies can't save him. This life both is and isn't a lie.

It's probably not a matter of if Connor remembers, but when, how, and what happens afterwards. If the spell just breaks...

This is why I can't wait for next season. We know the generalities of the situation, but not the specifics. Was Connor inserted into this familiy's life? Or... did he instead replace an existing son whose age and build matched his? It would stand to reason that tweaking the memories of the family would be easier than extrapolating his effect on their lives. The Monks extrapolated, and no serious changes were made, but W&H don't strike me as that moral, or that cautious unless it suits them to be. And Angel was clearly never intended to see Connor again. If Connor did replace somebody- and remember, they never spoke his name, or if they did, I didn't hear it- then there is a homeless young man in the streets of L.A. Best case scenario- he is an amnesiac. Worst case- he remembers everything. Either way, how this plays out depends on the family. The Summers' and the other Scoobies accepted Dawn, but they are extraordinary people. If this family is able to accept their son, then some good will come out of this. Their love for Connor will be true, and it will save him. If not, then once again, the fates have jerked Connor around. And I think it will be the latter- we are dealing with ME here. And hey- how do we know that this isn't the family of a member of W&H, keeping an eye on the Miracle Child, who has proven so vulnerable to emotional manipulation.

BtVS has been hitting us with the whole 'power' thing all season. "It's not about right, it's not about wrong, it's about power." Isn't that what the First told Spike all the way back in Lessons? Wolfram and Hart are interested in their own power, and in getting more. If AI wants to do good, it cannot work with these people. They will be undercut at every turn by their underlings, who will be getting their orders straight from the Senior Partners. More power by working at W&H? Hardly- these are the people who almost killed AI with information they got from bugging the Hyperion. Now that AI 'runs' Wolfram and Hart, they won't need the bugs.

W&H has played AI. They hit every nerve- Lorne's singing, Fred's science geekness, Gunn's desire to be important, Wes' library yen (but it was Lilah more than anything that has made him stay), and Angel's love- first Buffy, then Connor and Cordelia. These people know exactly who they are leaping into bed with. And yet, this blatant seduction worked.

And yet, it worked right after everything that's happened. They were weakened, they didn't even have a chance to get their thoughts together, and then Lilah shows up, rocking their world. Between all this, and the brilliant ego-stroking, they got AI. I hoped Lorne would hold out- he was too easily got, if you ask me. They worked a little harder with Fred. Gunn, now- that was smart. They made him think he was merely intended to go into Security, and before you know it, he's bonding in the White Room with a hellcat. Wes- he surprised them. He didn't care about the books nearly as much as he did about Lilah. The only way I can accept him staying is if he tries to free Lilah again. Angel- him, I'm most disappointed in. He knows what W&H is. He forgot what Buffy never has- "You can't do good by doing evil." And Angelcakes, selling out to the enemy is pretty damn evil. Good will come out of it- that medallion and those files are almost certain to end up in Sunnydale. As for the rest, all we will have to do is wait. But when Cordy comes back, and I'm almost certain she will find a way, I fully expect to see her kick the rest of AI's collective ass for being so very stupid to sell out!

One final question: W&H has finally got what it wants- the ensouled vampire working for them. Are they taking advantage of events, or did they perhaps play a part in bringing Jasmine to earth? She seemed like the type to deal with anyone willing to help her, and W&H seem like the types to help slaughter a whole bunch of people if it will get them what they want.

[> [> Re: Hate To Present A Dissenting View, But... -- Kenny, 06:37:03 05/08/03 Thu

I look at it a little differently. Angel went and found Connor before making any deals with Wolfram and Hart. He killed Connor because Connor was too far gone. There was no helping the kid by this point, and Angel knew that. The choice he took away from Connor was that of living. But death isn't the end in the Angelverse (gotta get used to saying that, it just won't seem right to call it the Buffyverse in a couple of weeks). He's given Connor a second chance. The key to me is that he killed Connor before talking to Wolfram and Hart. There's no way Angel could have positively known that they'd give Connor a new life. I consider it more like reincarnation, with Angel making sure that Connor had a better starting point this time around.

[> [> [> color me stupid, as usual... but? (spoiler HOME) -- WickedBuffy, 15:31:24 05/08/03 Thu

You are saying Angel physically killed Connor? When did we actually see Angel kill Connor dead? he looked alive to me at the end.

what did I miss this time? :/

[> [> Agree, it doesn't feel right to me... -- yabyumpan, 07:15:07 05/08/03 Thu

Ok, so I haven't seen the ep yet and maybe I'll feel different when I do, but I've read the wildfeed etc and all the feed back and it just doesn't sit well with me.
I don't see it as some noble sacrifice on Angel's part or an act of great love, it just feels like he's given up on him. I'm sure to Angel it feels like a Noble Sacrifice and it feeds into all his feelings about everything he touches turns to ashes, poor me, I'm a terrible Father etc. It enables him to get into all his guilt-tripping, brooding, poor me stuff and it means he doesn't actually have to deal with it.
With all the resources he's tapped into at W&H I'm sure he could have found away to bring Connor back from the brink, to really show him that he is loved and wanted, to show him that the world can be beautiful and gentle, to get him the help he would need to help him through. Instead, all he's given Connor is another lie and in doing so has given himself a get-out from actually really, truly saving a soul. He can just get into his usual mode of sorrow and self-pity without actually having to get his hands dirty (metaphorically) by doing the really nitty-gritty,tough task of caring for another, broken, human being, with all the crap that that entails.
I'm also pretty disturbed that ME went there. What are they actually saying? That that some people's lives have just been so bad that all you can do is give up on them and just give them a fantasy life? There are many young people Connor's age around the world who've lived most of their lives through wars and abuse and extreme hardship, but with love and caring and patience and the willingness of other people to actually get in there and do the hard and difficult work, they can come through and learn that life doesn't have to mean pain. I feel very disappointed that IMO, ME copped out and went with another lie for Connor instead of having Angel have to really get in touch with his humanity.

[> [> [> Agreed. -- Doug, 08:08:58 05/08/03 Thu

There was a Babylon 5 episode where something similar was done, "Passing through Gethsemane". In that episode it was called "the death of personality", it was the destruction of the original personality and the creation of a new personality in it's place, as an alternative to the death penalty. Like the death penalty it is used in situations wherea person is deemed to have no chance of change or redemption. So it's rather odd that Angel, who always makes such a big stink about the possibility of redemption for souled beings, condemns and destroys his own son by performing this act. Angel decides that Connor is beyond hope, so he performs a lie arguably greater than Jasmine's on Connor.

He decides that Connor is without hope, he gives up on him. More precisely he gives up on the idea of redemption and starts working for Wolfram and Hart.

[> [> [> [> That's what makes it interesting -- ponygirl, 08:31:16 05/08/03 Thu

Are there necessary lies that we need in order to live our lives?

The difference between Angel and Jasmine in my opinion is that Angel was willing to let Connor go. Like any parent each wanted the best possible world for their children. Jasmine however wasn't content to just bring peace to the world, she wanted to rule over it and control the people within. It was important to her that she be loved. Angel realized that it wasn't about getting Connor to love him, but loving him enough to let him find a life away from Angel.

He decides that Connor is without hope, he gives up on him. More precisely he gives up on the idea of redemption and starts working for Wolfram and Hart.

Maybe Angel has given up on the idea of redemption for himself, but not for others. The idea that Angel can live a pure and noble life - as a champion - becomes less important than actually having the power to help others (whether that will work is a question for next year). In the past did Angel want to save Connor for Connor's sake or because Angel wanted his vision of a family? In giving Connor what Angel himself had always wanted, I think Angel did offer Connor hope, and more importantly trust that Connor could find his own way.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: That's what makes it interesting -- maddog, 08:55:44 05/08/03 Thu

Thank you, someone not so gloomy. For one, Connor's issue was never about redemption and had everything to do with family. and last time I checked Angel was running W&H, not working for. There's a big difference when it comes down to what they'll have to do as the AI group and what they'd be forced to do as employees.

[> [> [> [> [> I'm not sure what you're trying to say -- Doug, 09:47:36 05/08/03 Thu

Maybe Angel has given up on the idea of redemption for himself, but not for others. The idea that Angel can live a pure and noble life - as a champion - becomes less important than actually having the power to help others (whether that will work is a question for next year). In the past did Angel want to save Connor for Connor's sake or because Angel wanted his vision of a family? In giving Connor what Angel himself had always wanted, I think Angel did offer Connor hope, and more importantly trust that Connor could find his own way.

Angel insured that Connor would have no chance of ever finding his own way.

Connor had a screwed up life, one that had a definite effect on the actions he took and the choices that he made. But lots of people eventually maage to beat the circumstances and choose their own path, both in reality and in fiction. But Angel decided that Connor couldn't do that, and he destroyed Connor and unwrote his life. And wth that Angel took away all of Connor's ability to choose. Any chance Conor ever had to become a better person, to atone for his actions, to make a new life for himself, was stole from him. He had all personal agency taken from him.

There are always necessary lies; but we still have the right to believe what we want to, to make our own judgements about the 2 greatest lies of all: Good and Evil. Connor had the right to form his own beliefs, about those lies and all the other lies that form the foundation of human society (love, Justice, etc.) Except he can't now, because Angel took that away from him to.

Here's hoping Angel gets F****d over working for Wolfram and Hart next season

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure what you're trying to say -- ponygirl, 11:15:43 05/08/03 Thu

Connor had the right to form his own beliefs, about those lies and all the other lies that form the foundation of human society (love, Justice, etc.) Except he can't now, because Angel took that away from him to.

Hmm, except that Connor's conclusion was to kill himself and a large number of other people. It could be argued that Connor was not sane at that point and therefore could not make a decision about his own life. I completely agree that Angel's decision was arrogant, but the last action of Father Knows Best was to admit that the damage that Connor had suffered was beyond Angel's ability to repair. Angel seemed to realize that all of his prior efforts had not been what Connor needed. Angel gave Connor what he himself has needed - freedom from the past, and escape from the shadow of his father. Whether Connor, should he ever discover the lie Angel created for him, will appreciate this remains to be seen, but I do think Angel is giving Connor the best chance at making his own way in life.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Something else Angel could have done (spoiler home) -- lunasea, 14:01:31 05/08/03 Thu

He could have had Connor's memory erased and then inserted back into his own life as the dutiful son.

He also could have thought that he could reach the boy and had him locked up somewhere. THAT would have been arrogance.

I am surprised that people are upset or angry with what Angel did.

I think the question next season will be to find those lines that are acceptable interferance and when it is taking away someone's free will.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree with you, Lunasea (spoiler home) -- WickedBuffy, 15:34:49 05/08/03 Thu

... but what's this "lie" everyone keeps referring to?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure what you're trying to say -- maddog, 12:01:15 05/08/03 Thu

Don't you think Connor was the one who took away his ability to choose? Connor was about to commit suicide and NOTHING Angel said was going to stop him. This was his best shot.

[> [> [> [> Interesting the Death of Personality -- s'kat, 18:39:22 05/08/03 Thu

There was a Babylon 5 episode where something similar was done, "Passing through Gethsemane". In that episode it was called "the death of personality", it was the destruction of the original personality and the creation of a new personality in it's place, as an alternative to the death penalty.

This idea originated in a 1950s novel by Alfred Bester called the Demolished Man - instead of executing a murderer, they merely erased their personality and installed something else.

Is this truly what Angel did? I'm not sure. This episode needs to percoalate a bit more in my head before I truly post on it. But I thought I'd add that little tid-bit for sci-fi fans.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Interesting the Death of Personality (spoilers Home) -- WickedBuffy, 20:01:13 05/08/03 Thu

Everyone sure seems to have varied views about what happened to Connor! What great reads.

I felt his personality didn't die - it was just given the proper environment to "bloom", in ways it couldn't before.

Growing up in that hell dimension brought out some aspects of his personality that a more heavenly environment wouldn't have brought out. And (somehow) "growing up" in this new family enviroment, allowed more positive, less survivalistic allowed other sides of him.

Then again, I can almost hear a neighing getting closer - cause we'd all have to agree on exactly what "personality" is.... from a psychiatrist view? spiritual view? all those other point of views (povs) we have here? Am I talking about personality as similar to spirit? or as something that you are born with? or something you acquire - being born a blank slate.

My pov just now was that we are born with a basic personality, with some set tendencies to lean towards some traits more than others. The influences you grow up in finish shaping what you become. There are inner and outer tendencies.

I've been gardening all afternoon - so... we first saw Connor as if he was a rose planted in poor soil with little nutrients and harsh weather. At the end of the episode, we saw Connor as a rose who grew up in rich, nuturing soil with wonderful weather. Same seed, just different results according to the growing.

It really helps a lot, I think, when the post includes what pov they are defining things from... like you mentioning the context of sci-fi. At least it helps me.

Then again, it will sure make the posts fly!

(sorry, went on a little tangent there. it just gets so difficult to find common ground when the area is a billion miles wide. nice to have a map, right off.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Good Post! Agree.A map on Death of PErsonality(spoilers Home) -- s'kat, 21:54:47 05/08/03 Thu

Very good post WickedBuffy.

You cleared up my own confusion on the whole death of personality thread.

If we define personality as something made up of memories and experiences - than yes removing all those memories and providing someone with brand new ones is in effect killing their personality. This would, I believe, be how the philosopher John Lock might define it. To Lock - we are born as a blank slate - a tabula rasa with no personality, each experience we reacte to, including environment, people around us, etc - imprints us with a personality. This is the Lockian view.

Science-Fiction novels have in a sense followed this view to the extent that by erasing memories - we create a brand new personality. The memories make the man. Books that have argued the validity of this theory range from Robert Ludlum's The Bourne Identity (see the movie with Matt Damon or the older TV version with Richard Chamberlin), Alfred Bester's Demolished Man. We also have television shows such as the recent somewhat short lived series John Doe.

Bourne Identity and John Doe argue that memories do not make the man. Just as Alfred Hitchcock's Spellbound with Gregory Peck argued this. Another one that argues it is Overboard with Goldie HAwn. According to these movies - we are born with a personality or way of reacting to stimuli that is inherently our own - it cannot be replaced, only built upon. Memories enhance the personality but do not create it. This theory is in some ways linked to the theory that there is such a thing as criminal gene or murder gene.
That our personality is biological. It is created by our DNA.

Then there's the theory that our personality comes from our soul - or is the interaction of the soul and the body. That once our soul is gone - so is our personality. This idea is dramatized in a way by the Philip Pullman series His Dark MAterials. And is in a lot of religious and mythological stories.

And of course there's the view that our personality is the product of all three: biology, environment and our soul or the energy that gives us life. (I tend to believe this one.)

But what do Whedon and Company believe?

Well, we have the following to go by:

1. Spin the Bottle - where the characters lose all their memories but the ones they had up to the age of 17. We notice in this episode that each character is different without those memories. Memories do have an effect on their personality. On the other hand - they do remain essentially who they are. Question - could Spin the Bottle be foreshadowing for Home?

2. Introduction of Dawn in Btvs S5 which had to have changed things. Willow, Xander, Buffy, Spike, Anya, Tara, Giles, Riley - all seem to have the same personality. Dawn doesn't change it. Their personalities are the same. But she does emphasize some traits that we may not have seen in them before.

3. Tabula Rasa - the characters are different with no memory, but they aren't blank either. HAving absolutely no memory does not render them automatons. So clearly Whedon and Company believe that personality is biological not just based on experience. Otherwise TR makes absolutely no sense in Buffyverse - since Willow merely mindwiped them she didn't replace their memories.

4. Vampires - these creatures seem to have personalities based on their memories as humans, biological makeup and the demon essence inside them rushing through them. When ensouled their personality changes a little - matures, but not drastically.

5. When Buffy loses portions of her soul in Living Conditions - her personality changes, becomes more childish, difficult, homicidal. Amoral.

Therefore - clearly Whedon and Company believe our personalities are a combo in the Buffyverse at least of our souls, memories and biological makeup.

In which case - you can't state that Angel killed Connor's original personality and gave him a new one in Home. Any more than you can say Willow did in Tabula Rasa. What Angel did was remove a portion of Connor's personality - his memories and replace them with better memories. Connor in essence is still Connor. He is who Connor would have been if he had been raised by a normal family. So his soul and biological makeup is the same, all Angel did was change one ingredient, an important ingredient, yes, but not the only one. So he didn't kill Connor's entire personality, he merely altered it.

Now whether or not Angel did the right thing, the ethical thing? Is another issue. I keep remembering what JAsmine told Angel - there are no absolutes - no right no wrong, just choices. And of course Angel's reply - but what do we have when you remove our choices? And of course Connor's response to Angel about the fact that he never had a choice and doesn't like the choices available to him now. And Wes' comment in Sacrifice about how he liked things better when he didn't have to make choices.

Again - thanks for the response, made me understand it better, like you, I was a little confused.

[> [> [> Re: Agree, it doesn't feel right to me... -- maddog, 08:27:24 05/08/03 Thu

I completely disagree. What ME's trying to say is that this life wasn't going to be fair to Connor. Angel's done his best and Connor just disregards him. He keeps thinking that everything's a lie...he's not giving the AI group a chance to be his family. He's too jaded to have the life he truly wants. I think ME's trying to say that we all should be able to have that second chance. A real chance at a good life. And Angel did that for Connor. He sacrificed the only son he'll most likely ever have to make sure that Connor was happy.

[> [> Re: Hate To Present A Dissenting View, But... -- maddog, 08:13:37 05/08/03 Thu

While I'd normally agree with you on needing someone's consent for memory alteration I believe Angel had it in a very indirect way. What's Connor wanted since day 1? A normal family. He's always hated Angel. He hates to fight. He hates the constant fight that the AI crew does. This is Connor's dream. This is exactly what he wants. And now he has it.

The other this is that remember, he didn't go to W&H to ask for this, they came to him...offered him the keys...and then he took advantage of it. Rmemeber now, just because they took the reigns doesn't mean that tomorrow they can't dump W&H. If it's their company to take, it's also theirs to leave and/or destroy. I mean, as much as it's easy to say, ""W&H is bad". Think of what can be done with the AI crew in charge....because otherwise it's guaranteed to be evil. I say at least give them a shot to make this respectable. Trust me, I know there's a hidden agenda...the look on Gunn's face in the end makes that perfectly clear. But it's not like the AI gang hasn't thwarted their plots in the past.

As for Connor, I can see this going wrong too. But I think it'll make for compelling storyline non the less.

Do you really think it "worked"? I disagree. These guys aren't going in blind. They know exactly what W&H is about. They just think they can handle it. That remains to be seen.

You bring up one very good last point. That medallion probably has something very important to do with Sunnydale and Buffy's battle with the FE. If Angel doesn't accept that, then the Sunnydale crew may not make it through...so it's possible he sacrificed himself to save Buffy. You may call that evil, I call it heroic.

[> [> [> Re-asserting Devil's Advocate Viewpoint (convenient when discussing W&H) -- cjl, 09:05:18 05/08/03 Thu

maddog writes: "Do you really think it 'worked'? I disagree. These guys aren't going in blind. They know exactly what W&H is about. They just think they can handle it. That remains to be seen."

The "remains to be seen" part remains to be seen. Things are bad enough as it is. Let's tally up what we saw in tonight's episode:

1. GUNN. Already compromised. Hoodoo'd by the black panther, he's probably now a pawn in W&H's grander plans. (I'm curious to see what the Senior Partners have in mind for Gunn. Is he replacing the Little Girl as part of the Ra-tet, or is it something even more ambitious?) If ANGEL is renewed, we're going to see a more dynamic, more assertive Gunn; good news for J. August Richards, bad news for the Fang Gang.

2. LORNE. Star-struck. If W&H promised Lorne the Vegas revue of his dreams, would he take them up on it, or would he stick with Angel and the gang and the never-ending battle for truth and justice? I'd like to think Lorne has grown to the point where the sparkly lights and show biz glamour don't matter as much as helping people--but after this ep, I'm not so sure. (On the other hand, I wouldn't mind the gang heading back to Vegas and Andy Hallett doing another couple of numbers with the Lornettes.)

3. FRED. In geek heaven with Holden W--I mean, Knox, and the W&H scientific research facility. Give our Winifred credit, though--she's intrigued by the possibilities, but she isn't even close to being comfortable with Angel's deal with the devil.

4. CORDY and CONNOR. Both out of the picture, but both could be used as blackmail if Angel steps out of line. Consider this scenario: Connor, freshman at UCLA, accepts an internship offer from W&H. He still has no idea who he really is--and neither does anybody else--but Angel does, and he's forced to watch Connor's back as well as his own. Much juicy angst ensues.

5. WESLEY. Go Wes! The guy has his head on straight. Completely uninterested in W&H's pilfered library, cuts to the heart of the matter when he tries releasing Lilah from her contract. His lingering affection for Lilah could be a weakness, but I see it as a painful reminder for Wes of how evil W&H's senior partners really are. Would he trade his soul for Lilah's freedom? If there is a Season 5, W&H should make the offer.

6. ANGEL. Already compromised. Goes against his own moral code and mindwipes Connor and the FG for everybody's own good--in effect, using Jasmine's tactics for his own purposes. I can't help but sympathize with Angel's near-impossible dilemma, but no good can come from the solution. Setting himself up as the sole moral arbiter for humanity is one thing when it comes to Jasmine, but I guarantee it's going to be a big problem down the line.

Will Angel Investigations be corrupted by Wolfram and Hart? There's no "will" about it--the corruption has started already.

There's GOT to be a Season 5.

[> [> [> [> Oh yes -- ponygirl, 11:39:36 05/08/03 Thu

There's GOT to be a Season 5.

But imagine how incredibly dark this is if there isn't? Each of the gang seduced by their own natures. Becoming exactly what they'd been fighting against. It's the perfect ending to AtS' saga of early adulthood - now the gang has decided to stop trying to fight the system and instead change it from within.

And while I do agree Wes is going in with open eyes, I'd say he is also giving in to his old desire to save the girl and be the hero while treading on the dark side. I think Wes' "tour" was exactly the one W&H wanted him to have.

[> [> [> [> Re: Re-asserting Devil's Advocate Viewpoint (convenient when discussing W&H) -- maddog, 12:14:11 05/08/03 Thu

Maybe I should change the phrase then. It should be, "will the AI crew be fully taken in by the ruse that W&H seems to be putting up?"

Gunn and Lorne are the only two happier about this. I think both Wes and Fred see the possibilities, but know there are consequences and are being greatful. And Lastly Angel isn't looking at the future. He got what he wanted when the wiped everyone's memory and he's now got info to head to Sunnydale with. So again, he's using it to his advantage while at the same time he's skeptical of good ole Lilah.

What I was trying to say in response to you is that just because it's started doesn't mean they'll fully fall in, or even if they do, we'd end up spending the second half of the season watching them find their way out(or have some sort of help I assume).

[> [> [> Re: Hate To Present A Dissenting View, But... -- Dannyblue, 10:51:06 05/08/03 Thu

Connor wanting to kill himself took it to a whole 'nother level for me.

When a person reaches a point where they want to die, where that seems like a better option than life, extreme measures are called for. People who commit suicide usually don't try once. They try again, and again, and again, until they get it "right".

In RL, Connor would have been taken to an institution where he couldn't hurt himself. He would recieve intensive counceling.

Could you imagine anything a councellor had to say getting through to Connor now. Maybe it eventually would, but how long would it take? And what institution (or jail, for that matter) could hold Connor for that long? What orderly could control him? What's to stop him from breaking out and trying to kill himself (and others) again?

Drugs probably. Keeping him sedated at all times. But patients in that state don't get much counceling. In fact, the purpose become keeping them calm, passive, and non-threatening, rather than helping them metally.

What kind of life is that for him? Locked up in a rubber room, probably in a straight jacket, drugged out of his mind? (It would probably take a lot of drugs to subdue Connor.)

Every parent who has ever sent their child away (into drug re-hab, to a boot camp for troubled teens, to an institution for depression, or eating disorders) is making a sacrifice. They don't want to be seperated from the child they love. They feel guilty for "giving up" on their child. They feel guilty for liking how calm and normal their lives become. But they hope the child will recieve the help they need to be happy.

Sometimes, "giving up" your child for their own good is the hardest, and most necessary thing a parent can do. Of course, that was shown in an extreme way on AtS, because this is a wonderfully extreme show. But I understand Angel's PoV exactly.

And you tell me any parent of a child who committed suicide wouldn't happily do exactly what Angel did if it meant their child would be alive and happy.

[> [> [> [> Re: Hate To Present A Dissenting View, But... -- LittleBit, 11:36:50 05/08/03 Thu

And can you imagine any counselor thinking Connor was anything less than completely insane if he were to actually tell someone his history?

[> [> [> [> [> they wouldn't have even had the tools or background to deal with it, if they DID believe him. -- WickedBuffy, 15:40:28 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> Wesley -- RichardX1, 09:53:25 05/08/03 Thu

>>Wes- he surprised them. He didn't care about the books nearly as much as he did about Lilah. The only way I can accept him staying is if he tries to free Lilah again.<<

1) I'm disappointed that Wesley thought he could release Lilah from her contract that easily. But then again, maybe he did realize it probably wouldn't work; but he still had to try.

2) You don't honestly think the books were W&H's bait for Wesley, do you?

3) Damn straight he's gonna try to free Lilah again.

[> [> [> Re: Wesley -- yabyumpan, 10:38:35 05/08/03 Thu

Why should Lilah be freed? Right up to her death and beyond, she's never shown a moments regret or remourse for any of the evil things she's done. She's shown no desire for redemption. She consciously chose the path she walked, she chose to go along with and instigated, many of W&H's plans. She had no problem with W&H's plans for an apocalypse, as long as she was on the winning side.

She chose her 'pact with the devil', there was never any moral ambiguity about her actions. She made her bed in hell, IMO she should be left to lie in it.

[> [> [> [> I wonder -- Arethusa, 11:04:40 05/08/03 Thu

what could make a person hell-bent on being hell-bound. What was her childhood like? What could make her so hard that she is grimly determined to be evil, yet soft enough inside to be able to love Wesley? She was very evil and did unforgiveable things. But as we've seen with Angel, Faith, Spike and, well, nearly everyone else, we can't pick and choose who deserves a second chance and who doesn't. Sooner or later we all will.

[> [> [> [> Re: Wesley -- maddog, 12:21:36 05/08/03 Thu

I don't think anyone is saying morally that she should be. But, it's fun to watch her and Wes interact because he really does care about her...he wants her to be free. And that's enough for us to want him to help her. It has nothing to do with Lilah as a person.

[> [> [> [> That's the lure... -- KdS, 15:30:08 05/08/03 Thu

And all that's why Wes'll try so hard to salvage her. Not just because it would generally be a good thing to do, but because he gets to redeem the person not even Angel could.

[> [> [> Re: Wesley -- Wizard, 15:24:32 05/08/03 Thu

I agree with you about #1, and #3's practically a given.

As for the books... Lilah seemed surprised. She genuinely believed that Wes was trying to go straight to the source. W&H haven't displayed the level of omniscience that say, the First has. They got their information from a second party. Who do we have? Of all the possibles, it only makes sense that Lilah would have told the Senior Partners everything they needed. Of all the W&H people we've met, she knew AI the best. Lilah was surprised by Wes, ergo, the books probably were his intended bait. It is possible that the Senior Partners realized Wes' true intentions- on either show the demons often possess great understanding of (at least part of) human nature (vital in their line of work)- and played him, but Lilah was surprised, and genuinely grateful. Ms. Morgan is evil, but she loves for two people that we know of- her mother, and Wes. I don't get why Wes thought it would be so easy to destroy a contract Lilah so willingly signed, but I think he probably did have to try.

[> [> [> [> Re: Wesley (spoilers Home) -- Wickedbuffy, 15:53:35 05/08/03 Thu

It certainly showed how much Wes has changed, actionwise. When we first met him, books would have been the perfect lure. (And, he probably would have fallen and broken his neck pulling that ceiling stunt.)

Now it's to help Lilah, it's a person.

Initially, Wes seemed to want to be the hero on the white horse that saves the damsel in distress, but he didn't have the experience, wisdom or understanding to do it. He'd always get knocked out or hide behind someone (BtVS). He wanted to be Cordelias hero, but was a slobbering klutz.

This time, Wes is fulfilling his dream, becoming the person he merely charaded before. He passes up the books to actually go save the maiden by destroying her agreement with W&H. And does burn it up. (That it reappeared isn't part of this issue.)

[> [> Or Am I Just Cynical? -- Wizard, 16:15:38 05/08/03 Thu

Judging from the general tone of the reactions to Home, maybe I'm being cynical and generally unable to see the point ME is trying to make. But I don't think I am.

I could accept Angel's actions if I knew for a fact that Connor's story, as far as it concerns the show, is over, but we've seen no indications that it is. In many ways, it could just be beginning.

For everybody that says that Angel was making a sacrifice, I've no doubt that he thought he was, and that he may have been doing just that. It's even to his credit that he put Connor into a situation where he could be happy rather than try to control him. But there are three major examples of sacrifice in the Buffyverse- Angel in IWRY, Buffy in The Gift, and Cordelia, last season. Granted, the odds set the precident for the soluton working out for the best, but that's exactly why it almost certainly won't- this is ME we're talking about. This isn't like a parent sending their kid off to boot camp. In a way, the father really did kill the son. And the son is in a better place. We just don't know how he got there!

As I said, Connor's situation is like Dawn's. What I want to be able to change my mind is information. What are the specifics of this new life? Is Connor being inserted into their lives, or is he replacing somebody else? And even if he is being inserted, then what happens when the spell breaks- and if his story isn't over, the spell will break. And when that happens, what results is up to Connor's family. If they can accept him, we may finally have Connor back as he should be- able to know love, because the love he was shown was unequivocably real. But if they can't then he will be right back to where he was at the mall- he may even be worse, because he will have had a taste of happiness only to have it snatched away... again! He had a chance- the scene on the roof, where he was finally beginning to climb out of his hell... only to get a reminder of the thing he blames for putting him there.

I goes without saying that I don't trust W&H. And I know that, for the most part, AI doesn't either. They think that they can probably handle W&H. I don't think that they can, at least, not the way they think they can. This is a ploy, and AI, especially Angel, think that they can turn it to their advantage. They are trying to subvert W&H to work for good, but W&H is already subverting them. What can they do with those resources? Well, consider how they got those resources, how they'll probably continue to get those resources. It won't take much to distract the AI people- throw them a few sould to save, to keep them out of the rest of the organizations hair, and it's business as usual, except we won't have those meddling investigators mucking up our plans, because they'll be dancing to our tune.

I realize that the show is undergoing a paradigm shift. Have I just not shifted with it, or am I right about what's going to come?

[> [> [> We don't know what the writers will create next. They are the Gods of AI. We're just observers. -- WickedBuffy, 17:04:04 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> Maybe a little of both. -- Rob, 19:27:58 05/08/03 Thu

I'd say that while you might be being cynical, perhaps you're right to take all this with a healthy grain of salt, just as Cordy's Ascension last year turned out to require in retrospect. Unfortunately, we won't be able to tell for a long time, probably. Oh, God, I hope the show is renewed.

Rob

Rewatching Dirty Girls and the relationship to Touched - What Caleb said -- Silky, 20:16:46 05/07/03 Wed

Did anyone notice the comment Caleb made to Buffy as the First in Dirty Girls?

Quotes thanks to Psyche
******

BUFFY/FIRST (cont'd)
What do you see?

CALEB
Strength. And the loneliness that comes with real strength.

BUFFY/FIRST
Nothing about my pert and bouncy hairdo?

CALEB (realizing)
You're her.

BUFFY/FIRST
The Slayer.

CALEB
At long last...

He puts his hand tentatively to touch her face, puts it through it, pulls it back slowly, all over the following:

CALEB (cont'd)
All the work I done for you, blowing up the council, organizing the Ray Charles Brigade, and stickin' all those splits... you never showed me.

****

"stickin' all those splits."

I had a theory about that comment and it was confirmed in Touched. Buffy, when surrounded by the potentials was weak - as if her strength was 'spilt' between all of them. Once she was separated from the potentials, she became strong again -- The Slayer at full strength.

Ideas/comments?

[> The 'splits' thing is a bit more lewd -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:28:43 05/07/03 Wed

At some point during the ep, Caleb made some pretty clear remarks about women's vaginas as "gaping holes". My guess is the "splits" refers to women, what with the split crotch area, and "sticking" refers to stabbing them.

What's the Ray Charles Brigade? I'm guessing it refers to the Bringers, but what's the reference.

[> [> Re: The 'splits' thing is a bit more lewd -- Silky, 20:32:55 05/07/03 Wed

Hrumph! I guess I'm losing my dirty old lady thought processes. I took it more - or maybe less - literally. That Caleb - dirty swine!

Ray Charles Brigade? The Bringers can't see and neither can Ray.

[> [> [> We know Ray has soul, but do the Bringers have souls? -- WickedBuffy ::love to beat that dead horse::, 20:45:19 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> Confirm: lewd; see also disenfranchising (spoils Touched) -- pr10n, 20:44:40 05/07/03 Wed

Some of Caleb's comments have a William S. Burroughs misogynost vibe; Burroughs' homosexual male characters also used that kind of language. Verra off-putting to say the least. Here's a great place for Joss to make text of the subtext: Buffy's (presumed) conquest of Caleb is also Joss stepping on the throat of violent male literature.

Along those lines:

Has anyone discussed Buffy's meekly delivered "I don't want to be 'the One'" yet? I haven't seen any mention. In this viewer's humble opinion, that was Buffy's rock bottom admission, where she had to go before she could regain her strength. She has said she doesn't want to be the Slayer before, but this line seems different -- a teeny little girl voice, like nothing I've heard from except SMG for, "Mommy?"

[> Re: Rewatching Dirty Girls and the relationship to Touched - What Caleb said -- Aud, 21:48:35 05/07/03 Wed

First-timer here, so if I'm way off base, please be gentle.

I understood that line completely differently. Caleb was listing things he'd down for the First, and they were at the vineyard, so I just thought "stickin' all them splits" referred to tying newly planted splits (vine cuttings) to stakes (or sticks) for support. I took it as a hint that the vineyard was significant.

I like the other suggestions, though. They are much more interesting and do fit in more with Caleb's oozing misogyny. One question, though: besides that Potential he picked up on the highway, and those he took out during the failed raid, do we have any indication that he has been attacking them directly? Or is he taking credit for those the Bringers have killed?

-Aud

[> [> Re: Rewatching Dirty Girls and the relationship to Touched - What Caleb said -- WickedBuffy, 22:05:39 05/07/03 Wed

He's the Bringer boss, they're "his boys", he's their teacher... so he gets credit for them all.

How the FE knows what's going on all the time. (vague spoilers Touched) -- WickedBuffy ::I spy with my little eye::, 20:21:08 05/07/03 Wed

I noticed it just once the first time I watched the show - and noticed it three more times the next time I watched it.

We were wondering earlier if there was a spy in the Summers house and speculating who it might be. It ranged from Andrew to Giles to everyone. That "hive" idea again.

Do you know the kind of camerawork they do on NYPD and other rality shows? Choppy, uneven - as if the camera were actually someones eyes seeing things? So you feel more like you are actually there and experiencing it yourself, through your eyes?

That was done at least three times during the Touched episode. The very first scene where everyone was in the living room arguing about what to do. The camera jerked around as if it was jumping from one persons pov to another.

The next scene it happened was when they were all in the basement, planning the Bringernapping and strategizing how that would help.

The next time was again in the living room, as Andrew is revealing to everyone what he and Spike discovered at the mission. Then they divided themselves up and set out on their missions.

The Bringer said they were everywhere, saw everything. It's been dialogued and redialogued that the FE is in everyone, all humanity.

What stops the FE from accessing that little bit inside this SIT or that Scoobie to get a spys eye view of what's going on?

And is that what that camerawork was showing us? The view the FE was seeing right as it happened - letting it know what was being planned so it could always be one step ahead of them? The scenes with that camerawork were pretty important in the battle.

And if not, why did Joss let a drunk cameraperson work the lens that day? :>

[> Re: Camera Angles in 7.20 - How the FE knows what's going on all the time. (vague spoilers Touched) -- Angelina, 04:11:53 05/08/03 Thu

Very interesting idea! I thought the chopy camera work was to show how chaotic eveything was in the Sommers house with everyone running around trying to figure out what to do. But, your idea works too.

Home is where the Wolfram and Hart is *spoilers for Home* -- Charlemagne, 21:06:40 05/07/03 Wed

You know for the longest time I was actually quite sure that Wolfram and Hart's senior partners were actually serious about their offer to some respect.

My thoughts were that they didn't honestly care what Angel did in one city one way or another and it was entirely possible that they would just get a major thrill from the fact that they tormented them with this devil's gold.

Either that or Wolfram and Hart's offices would be a distraction from the much greater goals they had in plan.

Gunn's Possession (is what I imagine it is) of course throws this entirely for a loop. I did like the fact that insecure boy fishing for compliments thought he'd be regulated to security.

The inside of research and development did show in some respect that this law firm was pretty much a much larger organization than even Angel hinted at. I wonder if Wolfram and Hart have a brokerage firm in their offices since they have science laboratories and the like.

It was good to also have acknowledgement that the Watchers are completely destroyed and the Punch to the Watcher's face in my mind was something Wesley wanted to do even if not necessary (The Batman riffe was unnecessary yet wonderful at the same). Wesley has been a traitor before but I can't imagine he likes the look.

Personally I'm kind of wondering whether anyone at Angel Investigations will be smart enough to fire anyone whose sold their soul to Satan (I must admit I'd be hard pressed to fire anyone who plays D&D no matter how evil)

In any case I liked Angel's solution to Conner.

-charlemagne

[> Angel as Charlie in the Chocolate Factory.. (slight spoiler HOME) -- WickedBuffy, 23:10:39 05/07/03 Wed

hilarous! It lightened up the whole mood of what could have been a very dark and tense episode. Lilah was so funny, it was hard to remember she's evil. (I was waiting for ompaloompas to spill out of the elevator.)

I agreed with your other points, as well. But didn't understand the bit about selling their souls to Satan. Have they ever used the word Satan or referred to it as the CEO?

::wandering off imagining Fred turning purple and floating away like a balloon while Wes and his Watcher have a burping contest::

[> [> Re: Gunn *Spoilers* -- Ray, 01:28:53 05/08/03 Thu

I didn't see it as Gunn being posessed. It reminded me of the old show the Sentinel where the leopard/panther served as an animal guid. Maybe Gunn saw his animal guide and it showed him his true potential. Which is why Fred said he looked taller, because he felt more confident with himself.

[> [> [> Re: Gunn *Spoilers* -- Mystery, 04:58:51 05/08/03 Thu

I was thinking the panther was representative of some ancestor and he was given hints to his heritage as the descendant of a demon-hunter or maybe even the First Slayer. Remember WAAAY back in the day, it was the norm to be married and in motherhood as soon as one reached puberty, especially since most people didn't reach past 40. And it would make sense that most tribes would WANT to have children of a Slayer-potential. I mean we know that Slayers are actually capable of having children. We just never saw one until Wood/Nikki.

[> [> [> [> Re: Gunn *Spoilers* -- leslie, 16:17:24 05/08/03 Thu

The panther seemed to be a pretty direct reference to the cat who leads Buffy to the First Slayer on her vision quest. And there really is a very persistent positive cat/ negative dog symbolism in the Jossverse, seems to be linked to a depiction of cats as solitary, dogs as pack animals, pack mentality. (Which really gets whopping big depth from Oz as a werewolf--he manages to cope when he locks himself away, alone; he gets into trouble when Veruca wants the two of them to be a packlet.)

What I want to know, though, is what the panther is? I mean, the little girl was one of the deities in the family of Jasmine and Manny, wasn't she? And Jasmine killed them all so that she would have no resistence/competition when she tried to take over the world. So, is the panther a member of a different system of Powers? And is that why Wolfram and Hart need new management? Again, in the cat/dog metaphor, WOLFram and Hart go on the doggy side of things, but here they are capped by a cat. Damn! If we don't get a fifth season my head will explode with unanswered questions!

[> [> [> or maybe Gunn was ... *Spoilers* up to Home -- WickedBuffy, 08:35:38 05/08/03 Thu

I thought he might have even become one of those umm .... I'm SO sorry, it's early... one of the "dieties?" like the little girl, or the old guy in the hawaiian shirt they tried to protect in the vault - the ones who were completely wiped out by The Beast.

[> [> [> [> That would have been very cool!!! -- maddog, 09:02:57 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> No, they are strictly non-JC demonology -- Charles Phipps, 07:47:42 05/08/03 Thu

But I use it as a rather generic term for the fact they are all apparently willingly beholden to the power of evil.

[> [> [> Ahh, thank you for clarifying - it threw me off. :> -- WickedBuffy, 08:13:14 05/08/03 Thu

Couples and couplings in 'Touched' (spoilers, natch) -- HonorH, 23:20:35 05/07/03 Wed

It strikes me that we had several layers of meaning and intimacy in the couples last night. To wit:

1. Faith/Wood: On the surface, just two people who find themselves attracted and in need of comfort getting it on. However, I find the timing somewhat suspicious. This takes place right after Faith has been told by the First/Mayor that she always wanted Buffy's love, and Wood confesses that he just wanted his mother to hold him one more time. So Wood and Faith--a Slayer--have sex in *Buffy's* bed. A touch of vicarious fulfillment for Faith, perhaps, and a touch of spiritual incest for Wood.

2. Willow/Kennedy: Here's a different situation, and more straightforward, IMHO. Quite simply, they like each other, they want each other, and Kennedy manages somehow to finagle them enough time to consummate their relationship. In an interview, Rebecca Rand Kirshner said that she doesn't see Kennedy as being Willow's soulmate. Kennedy's more like Willow's Riley, someone to have a good relationship with for a time, long enough to heal some wounds. There's not the depth of feeling Willow had with Tara, and I'm fairly certain Kennedy knows it and is furthermore okay with that. Kennedy is the ultimate carpe diem girl, and she'll take what she can get with this very intriguing person she's discovered. Willow will take the emotional and physical release, and also the affection.

One deeper note is that Willow's afraid sex will release her inner Big Bad--much like Angel, in fact. In the end, though, she decides to face her fear and take the risk.

3. Xander/Anya: This is the couple that truly loves each other. That's about all I'm certain of. They had what they thought was "one last time", but now they're one-last-timing again. So are they getting back together? Or was Xander's injury, combined with the sounds of other people having sex, enough to throw them into a hormonal embrace once more?

4. Buffy/Spike: He truly loves her. What she feels for him, I couldn't say, but one thing's obvious: he's won back the trust he lost last year. The tenderness in this scene blew me away. Buffy was shattered emotionally. She needed someone to break through her self-pity, believe in her unconditionally, and offer her comfort. Spike did all three. I think Buffy saw him with new eyes. She saw someone she could trust with her body and soul. Thus, she asked him to hold her, nothing more and nothing less, and they fell asleep in each other's embrace. I found the intimacy in this scene to be far, far greater than any of the other couples.

One more couple. Didn't you notice them?

5. The First/Caleb: Now, here's a couple only Honorificus could love. It's incorporeal, and he's an evil-worshiping, ascetic misogynist. Which makes them about perfect for each other. From the start, they struck me as having a perverse romantic vibe. The juxtaposition of the couples and the two of them just hammers it home. It cannot touch. He can, but won't except to kill. It desires to feel. He desires to extinguish. They live in a world with its poles reversed: whatever is good and lovely is anathema to them. He'd have condemned the lovemaking even if it had been between a bunch of long-married couples. The First envies them their feeling, but it doesn't want sex--it wants to kill. It wants to feel Caleb because he can kill.

In a word: creepy.

So. Do I have anything here?

[> Re: Couples and couplings in 'Touched' (spoilers, natch) -- Ray, 01:37:48 05/08/03 Thu

The Buffy/Spike scene was great. She admitted she needed someone and he was there for her. Very touching especially the gentle kiss to the top of her head that he gave her.
I felt the Willow/Kennedy and Wood/Faith scenes were overly long. It was good to see Xander and Anya still have something.

[> Re: Couples and couplings in 'Touched' (spoilers, natch) -- Calamus, 01:53:35 05/08/03 Thu

"...5. The First/Caleb: Now, here's a couple only Honorificus could love. It's incorporeal, and he's an evil-worshiping, ascetic misogynist. Which makes them about perfect for each other. From the start, they struck me as having a perverse romantic vibe. The juxtaposition of the couples and the two of them just hammers it home. It cannot touch. He can, but won't except to kill. It desires to feel. He desires to extinguish. They live in a world with its poles reversed: whatever is good and lovely is anathema to them. He'd have condemned the lovemaking even if it had been between a bunch of long-married couples. The First envies them their feeling, but it doesn't want sex--it wants to kill. It wants to feel Caleb because he can kill.

In a word: creepy."

Yea-as, I hear ya now. The way Caleb + the First (as Buffy...)were spliced in to this ep was such a classy meditation on the related mechanics of sublimation, repression, misogyny, and megalomania. And nicely subtle, perhaps uncharacteristically so (at least based on recent eps). Add to that the specific layout of each character's different reasons for reaching out to touch someone, and their answer to that question echoing back from TKIM: "Who you gon' call?" *Nice*.

I loved that moment where the First, no doubt watching Buffy and Spike, sort of admitted it was, well, *lonely,* and Caleb just *knew* what it was talking about. True soulmates fer sure, aaaaah. Who needs fanfic?

BTW, um, what's the metaphorical significance of the tongue piercing, anyway?

[> Good points, HonorH! -- ponygirl, 06:55:17 05/08/03 Thu

[> Excellent post, HonorH! -- Rob, 08:17:12 05/08/03 Thu

"Xander/Anya: This is the couple that truly loves each other. That's about all I'm certain of."

I completely agree with this, but this also speaks to the small reservation I did have with the episode. Putting my Kennedy hatred aside for a second, I just wonder why the couple that does really love each other got the least amount of screen time and the least amount of lead-in to the sex scene. I think it would have been far more powerful to have a scene that reflected back to them having sex in "The Gift," where they both talked about how scared they were about the upcoming battle, etc. I just don't see why 2 less important couples: one (Faith, Wood) not even a "real" couple, the other (Willow, Kennedy) not as established or meaningful to the audience as X/A, were given more explanation and examination than a couple that I, for one, have been in love with since the end of the third season. If I were editing or writing the episode, I would have shortened the W/K scene and the F/W scene, and had the X/A scene match the length of the B/S scene. I think that would have helped the pacing problem I think the middle of the episode had. I just think that especially with their lack of screentime lately, X/A deserved more time to shine.

Rob

[> [> De gustibus Rob (spoilers for Touched) -- Sophist, 10:26:23 05/08/03 Thu

I was much happier to see W/K than I would have been to see X/A. The latter story line has grown old for me and I no longer care much about it. I even doubt they're still in love, though maybe they are.

There are lots of good points made about the W/K scene in the thread at the bottom of the page. I agree with Masq and skyMatrix: there were good character development reasons for the W/K scene; it was hot; and it was, I believe, a breakthrough for television in terms of equal time and frankness. I loved it.

[> [> [> Plus, the more established the relationship, the less buildup needed -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:04:20 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> These two stole my points, Rob. Good job, guys! -- HonorH, 16:38:26 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: One scene or the other (spoilers for Touched) -- skyMatrix, 17:58:16 05/08/03 Thu

Hey Sophist, thanks for the shoutout! I'm still a newbie so I still get too much out of that sort of thing.

As for X/A, although I agree with Finn, Honor and Sophist that I don't mind the time given to W/K (well obviously considering how I was quoted), I also agree with Rob that X/A is important to a lot of us and I think maybe we did kinda get shortchanged. I think the problem is that it was mostly used for laughs as a sight gag (or maybe visual joke, sight gag might be too dismissive). "Hey look, even they're having sex! Again! Hahaha." The abruptness and lack of buildup was an important part of the sight gag.

It seems that this often happens with Xander and/or Anya, with their character development or whatever being sacrificed for some laughs. Sometimes it's worth the payoff, and sometimes it isn't. I'd say it wasn't really in this case, although maybe I'll relent if they have something more to say about X/A in the next two eps. Who knows? Anyway, I still loved this ep despite this minor complaint (which in fact I didn't think of on my own!). And you could say I'm being unreasonable in demanding more X/A screentime while denying that they should have cut W/K! Go figure.

[> [> [> Agree (spoilers for Touched) -- s'kat, 18:32:15 05/08/03 Thu

Would have to agree with Sophist here, even though I'm not a Kennedy fan. I don't hate her. I'm just ambivalent towards her.

Oddly enough a friend of mine, new to the show, whose favorite character is Anya - said the same thing to me tonight that Sophist posts above.

She said: "X/A felt like when two people have moved on and are listening to tons of sex, are lonely, about to die, and turn to each other because there isn't anyone else. And it's better than nothing." I think that's true. As much as I loved the X/A ship, it's over. These two may care about each other, may even love one another on some level, but they are no longer "in" love and the sex was just that sex.

W/K on the other hand was hot and passionate. Heck my mother and my friend both commented on it. Neither lesbians. I'm not either, and no it didn't turn me on necessarily, but it was hot and very well acted and choregraphed and the best of the sex scenes in that episode.
Another tidbit - the networks wanted to censor it more, Whedon fought them. Kennedy may not be Willow's true love, but they do care for one another and of the three couples having hot passionate sex - I think their's may have been the most honest and true. JMO.

Of course the truest of the group was the one not having sex at all - but that's just in keeping with ME tradition.
And according to RKK's interview on Succubus Club - deliberate.

Oh another comment my friend, who is more of a causal viewer than obsessive one, shared - she said and I quote: "Tues' episode reminded me of a Wagner opera - it's scope of characters and the intricacies of the plot and relationships, also the build-up. Sort of like watching the Wagner Ring Cycle." Interesting comparison, don't ya think?

[> [> [> [> Re: Agree (spoilers for Touched) -- Rob, 19:16:15 05/08/03 Thu

"...it was hot and very well acted and choregraphed and the best of the sex scenes in that episode. Another tidbit - the networks wanted to censor it more, Whedon fought them...."

I will say this: I am glad that ME did this scene. I am glad the show broke boundaries like that and fought the censors to show the same level of on-screen intimacy between a gay couple on a network TV show, as they usually do to straight couples (I do kind of doubt though that two men would have been able to do as much on UPN, but that's another issue). The problem for me was that I still didn't buy in the scene preceding the sex that the two are actually hot for each other. The acting and writing failed to convince me that the character Willow would be turned on by Kennedy or would want to have sex with her. So when the actual scene happened, it seemed off to me. I don't know if it was me projecting or not, but I thought it came off as very dispassionate and as if the two were going through the motions. I still felt no chemistry between the two of them. The actions, I agree, were very hot, in theory, but not to me how it played out. I personally thought X/A were much, much hotter there on the kitchen floor. There was a reckless abandon there, the lack of control Willow was afraid of giving into, but ironically I saw this in X/A's scene, not in Willow and Kennedy's.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> I'm with you, Rob -- dream, 06:44:31 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Sneaking in with a side note (spoilers for Touched) -- ponygirl, 09:22:05 05/09/03 Fri

Of course the truest of the group was the one not having sex at all - but that's just in keeping with ME tradition.
And according to RKK's interview on Succubus Club - deliberate.

Deliberate and necessary I think - how do you show intimacy between two people who have already been seen having a great deal of sex? answer: they don't have sex... but we are still left with the traditional slasher movie situation of people being punished for having sex. I liked the episode, and the sequence in question (still having some direction/editing problems, but that's just me), but I am trying to wrap my head around the presentation of this cliche. It sounds like Caleb-speak - the "pure" woman finds the sacred weapon, the others find a bomb. Was the cliched scenario unintentional, a subversion, or a way to call our attention to it? I can't decide.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Slight rant on a side note (spoilers for Touched) -- MaeveRigan, 13:08:33 05/10/03 Sat

Pure? Buffy's "pure" after she's had two long-term boyfriends (Angel, Riley), one one-night-stand (Parker), and how many months of sexual adventurism with Spike? I don't think so. To say that spending one night with Spike without sex makes her "pure" is to take "Touched" out of context, which is something that simply doesn't make sense for BtVS, unless you're a casual viewer who just started watching for the show this year.

Anyone here fit that category? I didn't think so.

In addition, Anya and Xander, and Willow aren't among those finding the bomb, so they're not being punished for having sex, evidently. And what about all the other Potentials--were they having sex with each other off-screen? I think not.

Of course, I'll have to apologize, I suppose, if Xander and Anya die in ep. 21 or 22, or if Faith & Wood do, or if Willow dies.

Sorry.

[> [> [> Not so hot time in the city -- cjl, 19:55:27 05/08/03 Thu

Rob writes: "I am glad that ME did this scene. I am glad the show broke boundaries like that and fought the censors to show the same level of on-screen intimacy between a gay couple on a network TV show, as they usually do to straight couples. The problem for me was that I still didn't buy in the scene preceding the sex that the two are actually hot for each other. The acting and writing failed to convince me that the character Willow would be turned on by Kennedy
or would want to have sex with her."

Agree completely. I would add that the sex scene between Anya and Xander seemed more perfunctory than passionate, and I'm a big X/A fan. Perhaps I find the superficiality of Anya's storyline since "Selfless" has drained my passion for Anya's character; perhaps I find it hard to get involved with a character that ME chooses to ignore in favor of (say) Kennedy or Andrew. Wasn't very turned on by Faith and Wood either. Two extraordinarily attractive people, but it just...wasn't sexy. I think I was more turned on by Faith and Spike's living room fight scene than all of Faith and Wood's panting and groaning. Is that wrong?

[> [> [> [> Hmmm....cjl and Rob's posts and projection (spoilers Touched) -- s'kat, 21:06:40 05/08/03 Thu

Sometimes it's hard to tell if we are projecting our own issues and likes onto what we are watching. I know I've been having that difficulty, particularly this year with the character of Wood. So I often use the fanboards to determine how much of my views are a legitmate response to the narrative being seen and how much of them are pure projection and have nothing to do with the narrative. The online world works as a very nice barometer for figuring this out. And cjl and Rob's responses to the W/K, X/A, and W/F issue is a good example. As are the other responses I've seen.

First W/K:
Rob writes that he's not sure if he's projecting or not. But W/K just didn't work for him . (Now we all know Rob dislikes K with a passion ;-)

cjl - also writes that W/K did not work for him. Now cjl appears to be ambivalent about K and actually may sort of like her.

Others on the board state W/K was hot but seem to place it in contrast to the other two sex scenes. I wonder if they'd have reacted this positively to it if it weren't for W/F and X/A?

The two casual viewers I spoke with - sort of compared it to the other sex scenes as well. Now they liked W/K more than I did and they also were huge Tara fans.

Others on the net? Mixed. Some liked it. Some didn't. The ones who didn't actually sort of liked Kennedy. Some of the ones who liked it - didn't like Kennedy. So I guess it just depends on what you think is sexy? Me? I don't get turned on watching someone lick someone else's neck - it squicks me, doesn't matter who it is. If it had been Buffy licking Spike's neck or Angel's - I'd have been squicked. Or Wes licking Lilah's. It's just not something I want to see. Other people get turned on by it. So to be honest - I think part of our reaction to that scene might have more to do with what turns us on?

At any rate - I've tested other boards and listened to the Succubus Club on this issue and have to say: No, Rob, you aren't projecting, enough other people who are ambivalent and even like W/K weren't turned on by the scene. So it's just preference.

Did W/K work for me? Not really. I got bored during it and on rewatchings? Fast-forwarded. It was just "hotter" than the other two. So in comparison to X/A and W/F - I found it the most tolerable - I'm getting the same thing from most of the other posts on the board. I'm not getting that it was hot per se, any more than people thought Buffy/Riley sex was hot - (did anyone like that sex a thon in Where the Wild Things Are?), but it worked better than W/F and X/A.

2. X/A

I have to say I agree with cjl on X/A:I would add that the sex scene between Anya and Xander seemed more perfunctory than passionate, and I'm a big X/A fan. Perhaps I find the superficiality of Anya's storyline since "Selfless" has drained my passion for Anya's character; perhaps I find it hard to get involved with a character that ME chooses to ignore in favor of (say) Kennedy or Andrew.

There's an interesting comment made by I believe Jane E on the Succubus Club regarding Anya. They said that they love Anya and Emma, but after they did Selfless - they sort of lost track of her character. They made the same mistake in S7 with Anya that they did in S5 with Xander. "We said it would be Anya's big year - we devote one whole episode to her handling all her issues - but we do it too early and then...she slips away from us. We did the same thing with Xander and The Replacement in S5 - said it would be Xander's big year - except it turned out to be only in that episode. It's a shame, we like Anya...but she's just one of those characters that only exists as an extension of her relationship with Xander. She really has no place in the group outside of him...sort of like people you know who drift out of your view after they break up with a friend."
Not exact - horrible transcriber. But close and Very interesting comment and explains a lot.

I wish they'd done more with her. But in a way they wrote the character into a corner by not developing her relationships with Willow or Buffy enough. The same thing happened to Cordelia in S3 after she broke up with Xander.
It also to a smaller extent happened with Tara in S6.

It bugs me a little that they chose to focus more on Wood, Kennedy and Andrew than on Anya or Giles. But unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your pov, I don't write the show. The writers clearly felt the need to bring more characters into the mix - shake things up as they put it.

3. W/F

This is an instance in which I really wondered if I was projecting. Because I found the pairing to be very painful to watch and it squicked me. So I checked the board and spoke to other viewers to check myself. Viewers who do NOT share my own personal difficulties with the Wood character.

cjl:Wasn't very turned on by Faith and Wood either. Two extraordinarily attractive people, but it just...wasn't sexy. I think I was more turned on by Faith and Spike's living room fight scene than all of Faith and Wood's panting and groaning. Is that wrong?

dochawk replied to my post on Touching Art - that he agreed with me Faith had more chemistry with Spike fighting. And none with Wood. (Now if I remember correctly Doc likes Wood.)

Doug - posted it was painful to watch Wood/Faith and also thought the Faith/Spike fight had more chemistry even though he didn't like the fight scene.

My casual viewing friends thought Wood and Faith were very attractive but had 0 chemistry together and were turned off by it.

I have yet to see any poster outside of Honorificus whose evil - like that scene or the pairing.

So this leads me to believe that I wasn't projecting on this one and my reaction was a legitimate reaction to the pairing based on the fact that while the two actors are very attractive and individually hot, the characters have absolutely no on-screen chemistry, plus their conversation prior to having sex had a serious Electra/Oedipal undertone making the sex feel almost incestuous - ie. something only someone evil could love??

See it helps to come online and exchange views - sometimes you get enough acknoweldgement of your own to realize, no, I'm not crazy and even if I am at least I'm not alone in the looney bin. ;-)

[> [> [> [> [> Yes: Kennedy is Willow's 'Riley.' (B/R didn't exactly get me hot, either.) -- cjl, 22:00:22 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> So what...we might ALL be in the looney bin, but at least we all know each other there... -- fleur-de-lis, 11:41:58 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> It was like watching the Discovery Channel.(vague reference to Where the Wild Things Are) -- WickedBuffy ... imho, 13:09:48 05/09/03 Fri

... "any more than people thought Buffy/Riley sex was hot - (did anyone like that sex a thon in Where the Wild Things Are?)"

I didn't. It squicked me. It was like watching gorillas mating on a Geographic Special - an initial morbid curiosity and then just boredom.

[> [> [> [> [> As someone who was hammered off his ass... -- JBone, 22:07:08 05/09/03 Fri

My Buffy airing was delayed a few hours Tuesday night, when one of my brothers happened to be in town. Damn you tequila, damn you! Anyway, By the time the episode finally aired here, I could care less about anything. Now, I am downloading like crazy off of Kazaa, but that night, nothing could make me care about anything.

I've said it before, I'll try it again, I need to see someone die. AtS failed me there. They even brought someone back from the dead. What a cowardly show! BtVS has to kill someone off, or show me some nip. I could live with nip.

[> I see a couple more Couples. (spoilers Touched) -- WickedCupid ::I love a numbered post::, 09:08:52 05/08/03 Thu

Great post, H.
Here are my reactions.

1. Totally squicky. Averteed my eyes constantly.

2. Completely agree!

3. All the above. They seem to jump on any excuse to have their "last sex" fling. Over and over again. They always did have great chemistry... remember how it first started? Anya couldn't keep her hands off Xander and Xander was in heaven. The emotional part came later.

4. I agree. I'm so happy it reached that level of intimacy. Buffys always had relationship issues and Spike's consistancy, among other things, finally broke through her wall of defenses.

5. Yep. Hey, people have all kinds of different ways of showing love - from the mundane to fetishes and even to some pretty horrible stuff (snuff films). That they equated the pleasure of lovemaking as the pleasure of killing really isn't too big a jump in todays world.

I also thought there was another level to that. Caleb and Buffy. He seemed to hate real Buffy in that loving way some psycho's show their love to someone by killing them.

Maybe there was another couple:

The First and The First morphed as Buffy. I think FE has a crush on Buffy's shadow side. FE seems to like wearing that form the best, at least if you go by what it cavorts in during the times it's not mind&*^%$@ someone.

I guess Buffy is the face it morphs to for relaxation. But FE seems to have picked up and is using the worst of Buffys traits, also. Not just her physical being. (Typical for The Evil to use the evil in another as the parts it wants to be like. FE certainly wouldn't adapt the good stuff!) Her impatience with Caleb in getting things done, fickleness when she starts berating him during the Caleb-Buffy fight scene (sounded like half of an old married couple!) and wanting what she couldn't have, to the point of pouting and envy. In this case, it's to be able to touch, to feel. In real Buffy, it was to have a "normal" life.

OOoOOO a seventh "couple"! (Perhaps Joss's way of honoring Honorificus) .... Caleb and Caleb. Does anyone really need this explained? Have you ever met a real person who is so full of himself? errr, wait .. I have... .

*WB Disclaimer: my comment about "old married couples" was not representative of *all* old married couples.

It was all about Connor... *spoiler* -- Corwin of Amber, 23:47:11 05/07/03 Wed

the whole season, from the very beginning. And Angel too, but only really as he related to his son.
The whole season, I was hoping that somebody would slap some sense into the boy, or that he would have one perfect moment where he'd realize he was in a cell of his own making...(I was really thinking that moment on the roof would be it) but after seeing that last scene, I realized that the poor boy never had a chance, his whole life had been one long struggle to just survive the next moment...and he'd never seen anyone make that change in their life. The only change was death, the things he'd killed and the things he'd seen die. He never had a chance and Angel compromised his own principles and pride to give him one.

Existientialize that.

It's a nice end to the season, and a good way to end the series if it doesn't get renewed. If it does continue, it'll be a fundamentally different story...because the AI gang will have power and will have to learn to use it.

[> Re: It was all about Connor... *spoiler* -- Mightor, 00:43:29 05/08/03 Thu

I definately agree with this assessment. I was sad to see Connor go because he had so much potential. But I also see the connection to the first season episode where only Angel remembered what happened and Buffy doesn't. Once again Angel made the selfless act and he alone carries the burden.

[> [> I think the saddest thing is... (Spoilers for 'Home') -- Kate, 06:56:18 05/08/03 Thu

that Connor will never know how much his father loves him and what he sacrificed for him. For Angel, I think there was a sense of peace in being able to give Connor a truly "normal" life. Of course he'll miss his son terribly and there will be an ache in his heart for Connor, but judging from the look on Angel's face at the end of the episode just before he returns to the limo, it makes him happier to know Connor is in a better place and will have a better life (from Angel's perspective anyway. Who knows what ME has up there sleeve for S5, if there is one. lol).

[> [> [> Re: I think the saddest thing is... (Spoilers for 'Home') -- lunasea, 12:46:35 05/08/03 Thu

It was just like Buffy will never know what Angel did.

I am not so sure we won't see Vincent again. Can Angel resist giving him a job, should he come to college in LA?

[> respectfully disagree . *spoiler to HOME* -- WickedBuffy (and I DO like Connor!), 10:43:42 05/08/03 Thu

I thought it was all about Angel. Besides being the star character.

1. Angel developed a kind of relationship he hadn't had before - one of the biggies. He'd experienced romantic love and platonic love before, we watched him develop through those. This time it was about parent-child love.

2. It wasn't about child-parent love, or it would have been all about Connor. Angel developed, Connor reacted. It wasn't about Connor learning to love his father no matter what mistakes he made, it was about Angel loving Connor despite what mnistakes he made. (I'm not saying Connor didn't do any developing.)

3. It was as much about Angels childhood as it was about Connors. Angel was able to give Connor the kind of home and family neither had.

4. Angel was the giver and Connor was the taker. Angel sacrificed many things to give Connor what he wanted and what Angel believed he deserved. He was Action in comparison to Connors Passivity. (in comparison, I said! why do I feel I need to watch my back?)

5. Angel felt the pain of letting his child go, and, the joy of seeing his child get the best. Connors feelings were mainly confused and painful, until the very end.

6. Angels arc hit a jetplane and Connors just barely skimmed a trafficlight.

Hey! I probably read your post wrong and this isn't what you were talking about, eh? ::realization dawns:: I need java.

*Disclaimer: I love Connor. Just not his haircut. This post was to point out the differences that support my opinion that this was about Angel more than it was about Connor. Take it with a grain of salt! :>

[> As much as I like to say (spoilers Home) -- lunasea, 12:34:46 05/08/03 Thu

That each show revolves around one character, whether Buffy or Angel, they don't. They revolve around themes. That theme plays out mainly in Buffy and Angel, but the other characters get into it also.

There are several themes addressed this season--identity, choice, hope, and growing up. Growing up seems to be what they really hit at the end. When we grow up we have to make choices.

In "Deep Down" Angel's Champion Speech to Connor is about hw he wants Connor to grow up. "You're not a part of that, yet. I hope you will be."

In "Ground State" we see Fred trying to grow up and hold herself together. We also see Wesley with his own crew, independant of AI.

In "Supersymmetry" we see Fred growing up, both with delivering a paper and with wanting to kill Professor Seidel. We see how AI can't really nurture Fred and she has grown beyond them. Wesley is willing to help her make her own mistakes while, Gunn and Angel are trying to prevent her from having to make them.

"Spin the Bottle" lets us see how far each person has come, even to this point.

The Ra Tet symbolizes the passage of the sun as it crosses the sky. This symbolizes man's journey from infancy to death. The ones we see are child (white room) and middle age (Manny).

Then we get Angelus, Angel's inner child. Angelus' remarks are often childish, as was Angel's behavior when it came to Cordy/Connor. Cordy even tells Angel he has to grow up.

For Faith it was time to grow up also and stop hiding in jail. She graduated self-flaggelation 400 (taught by the master himself) and moved onto Sunnydale.

In "Players" we see how much Gunn has grown up, but that he still isn't quite sure of himself.

Jasmine gives a child's dream of a perfect world. People subsist on cake and there are no responsibilities. No one really works for anything or grows.

This theme is punctuated with "Home." It both causes the gang to lose their old homes and find new ones.

There are plenty of themes to choose from, but each one involves all the characters. The show explores things from many perspectives, rather than with just one character.

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