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A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- cjl, 09:21:41 05/07/03 Wed

Still trying to absorb all the shifts in tone and fancy maneuverings by the Scoobs (or so they thought) and the First Evil (or so IT thought). I don't think RRK brought it off as successfully as a lot of other people on this board do, although there's certainly a lot of interesting, interweaving plot threads to untangle. Let's start with what didn't work:

THE BAD:

1. GET ON BOARD THE LUV TRAIN: I was bored silly. The Faith/Wood lust, the Xander/Anya grope-athon on the kitchen floor, and especially the Willow/Kennedy slurping upstairs. (Shattering the myth that hetero males are turned on by all lesbian love scenes.) Why the sudden burst of hormones? The fact that Faith was leading the Potentials into battle the next day, and it could be their Last Night on Earth? How was this different from the gang's Imminent Death at the hands of the Ubervamp? Nowhere near enough set-up here. (I'll get back to this later.)

2. SPIKE'S SPEAK. Nothing wrong with Spike's little testimonial to Buffy's special-ness: well-written, and beautifully acted by Marsters and Gellar. But this was, almost down to the letter, the same speech Riley gave Buffy in "As You Were," and I'm peeved that (1) ME brought back memories of that sorry-ass episode, and (2) this was the big motivational kick in the pants to knock the Buffster out of her funk. I'm disappointed that ME seems to think Buffy's legitimate psychic turmoil and almost irreconcilable conflict between her calling as the Slayer and her humanity can be ameliorated by a pep talk. Granted, Spike's pep talk and follow-up cuddling would probably cheer up any woman, but I was looking for something a little more profound and complex.

THE GOOD:

1. RUNNING RINGS AROUND THE PREACHER. Gotta admit, I thought the Buffy/Caleb fight scene was LOL funny. I flashed back to my old Marvel comic books, when a smaller, more agile foe would stay alive by bouncing away from the Hulk's lumbering attack. ("Hold still, little Slayer, or Caleb will SMASH!") Buffy finally figured out that she has the advantage in speed, agility, and...well, sanity. Caleb, nut job supremo, has mental buttons about three miles wide in diameter, just begging to be pushed. (Having a Buffy-shaped First hanging around the battle scene didn't help Preacher Boy either.) Good stuff.

2. HIZZONER. Mayor Richard Wilkins III his own self (sort of)--and damn, he looked great! Perfect choice to burrow into Faith's brain and dredge up all the old insecurities. It's been three years, but Harry Groener and Eliza Dushku haven't missed a beat--they've still got this amazing father/daughter connection that practically leaps off the screen. Wilkins/FE was clearly manipulating her, and she knew it, but Faith couldn't help but respond to the openness, the unconditional love and sunny disposition of the image in front of her. Can't say as I blame her. (Downside in the upside: this is probably the last time we'll ever see Harry and Eliza together on the series.)

3. THE SWORD IN THE STONE. From the 2003 Whedon Catalog of Mystical Accessories, the weapon of choice for the Slayer On the Go. It may not have the personal touch of Xander's rocket launcher, but it's got a heck of lot more mythic kick to it; in a way, Buffy is a modern update of the Arthurian legend, reinterpreted to reflect a woman's point of view (a la Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon). But I'm sure Joss has no intention of giving us a straightfoward transliteration....

4. SPIKE VS. FAITH. Yeah! A major snarkfest, and a kick ass fight scene to boot. Unpleasant truths aired out on both sides, and a promise of more to come--if Faith survives the bomb, of course.

Speaking of which...

It was ridiculously easy setting up Faith, Giles and the others to rush headlong into another trap. It's as if The First knew about their plan to set up Kennedy as "disgruntled minion" even before they did. (Once the gang took the Bringer into custody, it was all over. The First had completely outmaneuvered them.)

But how is the First doing this? The FE was all but eavesdropping on the Scoobs' lust-a-thon from the vineyard, as if it was psychically attached to all the participants. Can it read their minds, or is it just able to sense the emotional "heat" from the humans that compose its essence? If there is a psychic connection, did the First have any influence over last week's mutiny and this week's shagathon?

Maybe there's another possibility. There's been all sorts of buzz on the board that the First has an agent inside the Scooby camp. Most people devoutly pray it's Kennedy, and once found out, she's killed in a particularly gruesome fashion. I'm willing to entertain the idea of a spy in the house of love, but I'm wondering if it might be one of the main characters (like Cordelia in ANGEL S4)--perhaps leaking information without his or her knowledge. Suppose Giles came back from his near-beheading in 7.8 "tagged" by the First Evil, and he's beaming the events in Casa Summers in full, technicolor Watchervision?

And then there's Dawn. Are we supposed to believe she's suddenly an expert in Turkish and Sumerian and there's nothing funny going on? Is it possible the First is tapping into her Key-ness? (How else did Caleb know what Dawn said to Xander in "Potential"?)

The other side to this equation is The First's relationship to Buffy. It's interesting that when Buffy left the house, she apparently dropped off the First's radar. The apparition of Mayor Wilkins made a point of prodding Faith to send out a couple of spies to keep an eye on Buffy. (Reminded me of Jasmine sending out her minions to find Angel and the rest of the Free Will Gang.) When Buffy popped up at the vineyard, Caleb and the First were actually SURPRISED. That must mean either: (1) Buffy was out of range of the mole inside of the Scoobs; or (2) the FE doesn't have the ability to psychically keep tabs on Buffy.

I admit it--too many options here. Much confoozlement. Hope Joss can straighten it all out in two weeks.

Oh God. There's only two weeks left. (SOB.)

[> driveby comment--more later if i have *anything* resembling enough time -- anom, 10:00:17 05/07/03 Wed

Maybe the First has finally learned to keep its mouth shut (when it doesn't want to be recognized, as w/Faith) & just keep tabs on what's going on. If any of the Potentials got separated from the rest, a Harbinger--or Caleb--could've killed her & disposed of her body so the FE could take her place. As long as it refrains from overdoing the discouraging words, it wouldn't be detected (unless they're doing the touch-test on a regular basis).

On the other hand, good point about Dawn.

[> I love Buffy's seasonal pep talk (spoilers for 'Touched') -- lunasea, 10:06:05 05/07/03 Wed

2. SPIKE'S SPEAK. Nothing wrong with Spike's little testimonial to Buffy's special-ness: well-written, and beautifully acted by Marsters and Gellar. But this was, almost down to the letter, the same speech Riley gave Buffy in "As You Were," and I'm peeved that (1) ME brought back memories of that sorry-ass episode, and (2) this was the big motivational kick in the pants to knock the Buffster out of her funk. I'm disappointed that ME seems to think Buffy's legitimate psychic turmoil and almost irreconcilable conflict between her calling as the Slayer and her humanity can be ameliorated by a pep talk. Granted, Spike's pep talk and follow-up cuddling would probably cheer up any woman, but I was looking for something a little more profound and complex.

I really liked Spike's speech. It was my third favorite Buffy seasonal pep talk behind Angel's in "Helpless" and Xander's in "The Freshman." Big difference is that both of those were severly undercut which made them that much more powerful. Does ME even remember how to do that any more? They do it rather well over on AtS.

Do you wonder if before the season starts, Joss writes the seasonal pep talk and then just figures out what episode to insert it into?

Spike's is better than new-improved Riley's, even though it is the same thing reworded, because it not only showed Buffy herself, but it finally showed the audience what newly souled Spike was like. What he said contrasted sharply with everything he said about Buffy season 6. I like this Spike best, even if too much would get incredibly boring. What will this character do next season? Gives me tinglies just thinking about the possibilities.

As for what brought Buffy about, I wouldn't be so sure it was just the Spike talk and cuddle. I liked how everyone else was being physically touched, but it was only Buffy and Spike who were really touched. (Well Caleb is touched in the head)

I think we are going to see an "Epiphany" moment. It wasn't the pep talk that did it, but Buffy trying so hard not to shy away from the fire. Angel tried to lose his soul so he wouldn't care. He couldn't. In that he was saved. When everything is gone, what's left? "Me." Buffy tried to feel something and to let herself care. I would be willing to bet that she can care, but not about Spike in that way (would make what happens in the trailer questionable at best. Spuffy needs to be put to bed once and for all. RRK started it with OOMM. It was fitting she had to end it.) In that Buffy was saved.

3. THE SWORD IN THE STONE. From the 2003 Whedon Catalog of Mystical Accessories, the weapon of choice for the Slayer On the Go. It may not have the personal touch of Xander's rocket launcher, but it's got a heck of lot more mythic kick to it; in a way, Buffy is a modern update of the Arthurian legend, reinterpreted to reflect a woman's point of view (a la Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon). But I'm sure Joss has no intention of giving us a straightfoward transliteration....

I would rather see Buffy as the Lady of the Lake and be the watery tart who tosses the sword to someone else (maybe Faith). Maybe the sword can go to Dawn (who has shown aptitude in this respect) or someone else and Buffy chooses the someone else. Then this someone else dies. Why does "Buffy won't choose you" have to be something bad?

Just my own ideas and speculation.

[> [> I love how misleading UPN can be -- dub, 11:04:09 05/07/03 Wed

I would be willing to bet that she can care, but not about Spike in that way (would make what happens in the trailer questionable at best. Spuffy needs to be put to bed once and for all.

How many times have we seen trailers that completely misrepresent what will happen in the next ep? I'd be willing to bet that we'll finally see Bangel put to rest, which for most thinking people happened years ago.

;o)

[> [> [> Mislead possibilities -- Dariel, 11:23:25 05/07/03 Wed

Yes, the trailer had me wondering--is that Angel(us) or the FE? Folks have noted that the First never appears to Buffy. Could that be about to change?

ME is just evil enough...

[> [> [> [> Promo plea -- ponygirl, 11:28:56 05/07/03 Wed

Could someone briefly re-cap next week's trailer? My evil station doesn't air them.

Pretty please?

[> [> [> [> [> Omigod -- dub, 11:35:27 05/07/03 Wed

I went to UPN to see if the trailer was posted there for you (it isn't yet) and they've got a countdown clock to the finale--13 days, 8 hours, 20 minutes--aaauuuuggghhhh!!!!

http://www.upn.com/shows/buffy/

[> [> [> [> [> [> I've only seen the trailer about a dozen times (spoiler for trialier) -- lunasea, 11:46:11 05/07/03 Wed

I'll see what I can remember:

Major huge explosion. Potential parts everywhere. The Scoobies and remaining Potentials looking to see if anyone else is alive. That is nice. No Kennedy in this part. Who knows if she survived the big boom.

Brief flash of an uber-vamp.

Then, sigh, Angel returns, in a suit and tie, no less. He looks happy. No brooding or seriousness to be had. With his arms crossed just looking at what is going on (not angry arms. Just something to do with them) "God I miss watching this" he says with the best look on his face. Cut to Buffy saying "Angel" and her walking to him as if she is going to kiss him (they don't show the kiss)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks muchly! -- ponygirl, counting down the minutes!, 11:56:49 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're muchly welcome -- lunasea, 12:05:50 05/07/03 Wed

t-minus 6 hours

Or did you mean for Buffy? :-)

I need to know how he gets into that tie and suit.

The only thing keeping me sane is that next week WB will release their line-up for the advertisers. That means going into BtVS, I will know whether that will be the last time I see Angel until the movies.

It is times like this that I wished I believed in a God that I could pray to and be rewarded by for my virtuous behavior.

[> [> [> [> Re: Mislead possibilities -- Kate, 11:53:06 05/07/03 Wed

That was totally my first thought too (after squealing loudly b/c I didn't not realize DB is in next week's AND the week after's episodes. lol)!! I so wondered if it isn't the FE as Angel just to keep playing Buffy...???

[> [> [> [> [> Sigh. Unmarked future casting spoilers in above post. -- Anneth., 12:17:18 05/07/03 Wed

I knew about 7.21, but not 7.22. For heaven's sake, people, PLEASE mark your spoilers.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry Anneth, but... -- Kate, 14:20:06 05/07/03 Wed

Since the whole discussion and my reply was based on a coversation about said spoiler, I kinda assumed it was understood. I apologize and will be clearer about that in the future b/c I hate being spoiled uncessarily as well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I was referring to the 7.22 casting spoiler. -- Anneth, 17:53:28 05/07/03 Wed

didn't mean to sound snarky.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I was referring to the 7.22 casting spoiler. -- Kate, 19:09:02 05/07/03 Wed

No, I understand. I just meant that my post wasn't the first to mention it so I didn't feel the need to add a warning if those above me didn't. That's all. :)

[> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- s'kat, 10:12:33 05/07/03 Wed

Good post. Agree with everything mentioned except for one little thing...which you probably already guessed if you'd read mine. ;-)

2. SPIKE'S SPEAK. Nothing wrong with Spike's little testimonial to Buffy's special-ness: well-written, and beautifully acted by Marsters and Gellar. But this was, almost down to the letter, the same speech Riley gave Buffy in "As You Were," and I'm peeved that (1) ME brought back memories of that sorry-ass episode, and (2) this was the big motivational kick in the pants to knock the Buffster out of her funk. I'm disappointed that ME seems to think Buffy's legitimate psychic turmoil and almost irreconcilable conflict between her calling as the Slayer and her humanity can be ameliorated by a pep talk. Granted, Spike's pep talk and follow-up cuddling would probably cheer up any woman, but I was looking for something a little more profound and complex.

Here's Riley's Speech from As You Were:

RILEY: Buffy, none of that means anything. It doesn't touch you. You're still the first woman I ever loved ... and the strongest woman I've ever known. And I'm not advertising this to the missus ... but you're still quite the hottie. This isn't about who's on top. I know how lucky I am right now. I love my work, and I love my wife. So you're not in the greatest place right now. And maybe I made it worse. Wheel never stops turning, Buffy. You're up, you're down ... it doesn't change what you are. And you are a hell of a woman.

Now while this may seem similar to Spike's - I'm sorry nope, not to me. I actually preferred Spike's speech to Buffy. Liked it better than the sappy Xander one in Dirty Girls. And no she didn't need it to feel empowered or anything. What she needed was to sleep, finally. To let go. And she was able to do that. I honestly think this is the first good night's sleep she's gotten in ages.

At any rate Spike's speech was basically: I love who you are no matter what. For what you've done. For what you are.
At your worst and best. You're the one. (I don't want to be - and Spike, well them's the breaks.)

Now we all have our favorite speeches. Some prefer Xander's. Some Riley's. Some Buffy's - god, is there anyone who likes Buffy's speeches?? Anyways.. I disagree with you that Spike's speech was what empowered her. I think what it may have done is made her see a different pov. I also disagree that it was the same as Riley's. Riley's speech grated on my nerves and seemed condescending - maybe because of the context? Don't know. Spike's seemed endearing and honest. Again possibly because of the context.
For me, context is everything.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.:-)
***************8
Now that we're over that little hurdle - on to the more important stuff.

Your theory that there's a spy in the Summer's house - seems right on. And something that hadn't occurred to me.

Several odd things: one the First seems to know way too much about what the SG are up to. Yet it doesn't know everything.

Suspects:

Well we can mark Buffy, Faith, out of contention - since Faith arrived way too late in the game and Buffy seems to have dropped off the radar.

Spike? Nope, seems he left the radar after the trigger was taken, assuming he was ever the spy. Also doesn't work, because First seemed to know what was going on in the house when Spike was clearly elsewhere. Besides First has gone to a great deal of trouble to get rid of Spike.

Andrew? Tempting. But no. Andrew was off with Spike when the big mutiney went down. Also Andrew while he can easily be used to speak for the Bringers...which makes me think maybe it's him, didn't know everything. Also the FE wanted to take him out too.

Giles? Possible. Except he's not always around either. Can we prove the FE has been off about the SG when Giles is gone? Buffy has been more successful in fighting the FE when she isn't around Giles. And the FE didn't appear to be around much in the episodes that Giles wasn't in. With the exception of Showtime - but it took the form of a potential to spy on the gang then. And in Never Leave Me - but it was triggering Spike and playing with Andrew at that point.
Giles hadn't arrived yet. Let's see...if we track back through the episodes? Yeah, Giles could work. Even the whole thing about Xander being the one that sees? Giles could easily have found that out from Dawn. Also Giles kills the bringer before it can give them additional info?

Dawn? Far better canididate than Giles. Dawn has always been around. Dawn seems to suddenly have skills she never had before. Dawn's words to Xander in Potential are almost completely repeated by Caleb, word by word. Dawn has no clue where Buffy went. Dawn was with them in the basement with the bringer and it is Dawn who provided them with the information to unlock it.

Wood? Nope. As nice as that would be. Doesn't work. He's not around enough. Wasn't in on the Bringer session.

Willow? Nope. Same problem. Not around enough. She also jumped over to Angel for several days.

Xander? Xander also not around enough.
And why blind him? No...don't think so.

Hmmm...two episodes left. Is that really enough time to go into this?

[> [> Re: Giles or Dawn - A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- Angelina, 11:28:34 05/07/03 Wed

I don't think it could be Dawn - for the very reasons you posted. She is the one who threw Buffy out of the house, thus causing Buffy to "fall out of the First's radar". Also, she has been using her newly acquired skills to help the SG. I think that the First may have the power to read people, without having to actually hear what they are saying. I don't think is really makes a difference that Caleb repeated what Dawn told Xander - Caleb could have pulled that right out of Xander's mind - or it could be something that the First just "knows". So I don't think it is Dawn who is the "spy". I think it is Giles. Giles hasn't been "Giles" all season. Where is the Giles that screamed laughing with Buffy when he came back at the end of last season? When Buffy told him all that was going on, including the fact that she was sleeping with Spike? Giles just burst out laughing. It was one of the funniest moments of the series. And one of the most touching. Buffy and Giles were closer than ever. This season, Giles has been distant, judgmental and just extraordinarily mean to Buffy. He has questioned everything she has done. Has given her no quarter, and has been relentless in his disapproval of her and Spike's relationship. If one hadn't watched the glorious relationship between Buffy and her Watcher from the beginning, one would think that Giles has no confidence or respect in or for Buffy. And that is just so sad. As is the distance between Xander, Willow and Buffy. It makes me wonder, that after this Apocalypse, if the SG is victorious, and assuming they all make it through, can the relationships between these people continue? I am wondering if the fences can be mended, or if Buffy will simply walk away alone. If Giles is just Giles, then he has lost all hope. I don't think he much cares about any of his "duties" or his own "calling". He is done. As for Willow and Xander's relationship with Buffy - I just don't see how these fences can be mended. Willow is caught up with Kennedy, and has done nothing to back up Buffy. Willow is totally involved in her own "stuff", she is very concerned about how the use of magic will effect HER. Will it cause her to be the big bad again. Xander - poor Xander, he has paid a huge price for his devotion to Buffy. I don't know if he has it in him anymore. And lastly, how can Buffy forgive them? I so agree with Spike's speech. They are all traitors. I mean they may have just cause, but they are traitors nonetheless and they did toss Buffy out on her ear. Can Buffy forgive them? Or, will they all walk off in different directions? I don't know. Looks like we will have to just wait and see.

[> [> [> That would certainly explain why every OTHER adult on the show got sumpin' Giles didn't. -- WickedBuffy :sigh:: even Wood the Red Herring, 14:37:57 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: Giles or Dawn - A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- gillie, 20:08:16 05/07/03 Wed

howdy--long time lurker, first time poster.

i have some serious speculations about dawn that
i haven't noticed commented on (perhaps i missed
it)

did it occur to anyone else besides my husband
and myself that dawn, while not a potential slayer,
is actually a potential watcher? she's always had
a weird precocious knack for research, finding
demons and such easily while the other scoobies
struggle, and did she not become a human endowed
with umpteen years of diary writing behind when
the monks created her? many have suggested that
she's been superflous this season--perhaps this
is where she is heading.

if the watcher's council is kaboom bye-byes and
all we have left is giles (who i think is under
the thrall of FE btw) and wesley, who else is
going to carry on the watcher torch and rebuild
the council?

thanks for allowing my 2 cents and the intrusion! :)

[> [> [> [> Welcome! And I think that's a great idea. -- dream, 08:13:14 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Welcome! And I think that's a great idea. -- gillie, 14:24:19 05/08/03 Thu

thanks for the welcome, dream :)

and i do hope this pans out--it's such a juicy theory.

[> [> Re: Speechifying -- leslie, 12:04:03 05/07/03 Wed

Seems to me the parallel is not between Spike and Riley's speeches but Spike and Buffy's speeches:

1) Spike is ready to give up; the soul thing is worse than he imagined and now he's killing people even with a chip in his head. He's moved from the school/Hellmouth basement to the Summers basement, isolated from everyone else. Buffy says "I have faith in you." Bringers burst in and in the confusion, Spike is spirited away by the FE who thinks he will be easy to break, but knowledge of Buffy's faith in him enables him to resist until she rescues him.

2) Buffy is ready to give up; the leadership thing is worse than she imagined and she's caused the death of innocent SITs. She's thrown out of her house and bedroom (now apparently occupied by Faith) and camping out in someone else's bedroom. Spike says "I have faith in you." After a night in which they are apparently the only people in Sunnydale not having sex, Spike wakes up to find Buffy gone; she is confronting the FE. Knowledge of Spike's faith in her gives her the courage/chutzpah/what-the-hellishness to fight Caleb with something approaching her normal light-hearted approach to battle (no puns yet, though).

I think it's interesting that what Spike's speech appears to ignite in her is the thing that the two of them have always shared, even as enemies: not only their abilities as warriors but also their devil-may-care attitude toward battle. Spike liked fighting Buffy because "she's tricky," spontaneous, takes advantage of the moment and turns it to her advantage. As Spike himself pointed out, he's not a strategist (loved the "the blood isn't flowing to my brain" remark)--the reason he is a successful warrior is also his ability to grasp the moment and to be a trickster.

[> [> Answer to s'kat re: Buffy's speeches -- Artemis, 15:44:05 05/07/03 Wed

To the quesstion , Is there anyone who likes Buffys speeches? Have to admit I still love the one in Bring on the Night "We're not ready. They're not ready..." It still gives me goosebumps. Thats why I wanted her to stop all the others . The writers( intentionally I think) put the best speech first.

[> [> [> I concede she did a few good ones, okay great ones. -- s'kat, 20:20:24 05/07/03 Wed

Her speech in Bring on The Night. The Speech to Spike
in Never Leave Me and of course her speech to Angel in Amends are classics.

So yep she does good ones - when her heart's in it.

[> [> I don't think that there is any one spy... -- KdS, 16:13:02 05/07/03 Wed

I have a suspicion that the FE can see through the eyes of anyone who is close to or actually giving in to negative feelings. Have to analyse what the FE knows when and see if I can tie that in.

[> [> [> Wow... that makes sense... it's a hive of spies (spoilers to Touched). -- WickedBzzzzzz, 17:38:43 05/07/03 Wed

If there's some evil in everyone, as ME keeps pointing out, then every single one of them could unknowingly be spies. The Bringer did mention the "hive" mentality and being everywhere. Maybe he didn't just mean that the Bringers were everywhere, but that the FE was lurking inside of everyone and peeking out.

(Except ,maybe Amanda.) ;>

[> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched' plus a bit o' spec for the next ep.) -- Cactus Watcher, 10:20:28 05/07/03 Wed

As another hetero-male, I liked the Willow-Kennedy action until K started 'scraping' Willow's neck with her tongue jewel. That's supposed to be erotic? ... The youth of today, sigh.

Like Lunasea I'd like to see a twist on the sword-in-the-stone business. How about if Buffy isn't the one who can pull it out?

[> [> my spec on the s-in-the-s (my way of avoiding subject line spoilers! but 'touched' spoilers inside) -- anom, 23:16:44 05/07/03 Wed

"How about if Buffy isn't the one who can pull it out?"

How about this: Buffy can't pull it out--Faith can! But Faith gets killed anyway, & one of the (surviving) Potentials is called as the new Slayer. Hey, it oughta satisfy the "Faith is the real Slayer" crowd! She goes out a hero, & the torch--or sword--is passed.

A thought occurred to me today about Caleb & his rage & repression. Angelus' line "Requisite phallic sword..." came to mind, & it fits this situation just fine! Caleb finds a super-powerful sword & can't wield it--only "she" can! No wonder he's pissed off!

[> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- Malandanza, 10:35:57 05/07/03 Wed

"1. GET ON BOARD THE LUV TRAIN: I was bored silly. The Faith/Wood lust, the Xander/Anya grope-athon on the kitchen floor, and especially the Willow/Kennedy slurping upstairs. (Shattering the myth that hetero males are turned on by all lesbian love scenes.) Why the sudden burst of hormones? "

I agree with you here -- the bright side for me is that Buffy and Spike weren't on the LUV TRAIN, in spite of those suggestive previews last week. While normally I would dismiss sex in the face of the apocalypse as the Cuban Missile Crisis cliche that we've seen perpetuated prior to most apocalypses, I don't think it works for this night -- most of the people having sex are not facing death the next day. Instead, if we look at the cases separately, there's sufficient reason for each coupling:

Sexual athlete Faith has been locked away in prison for quite some time -- no sign of her having had sex in LA. She could have had sex with Giles, Xander, Andrew (not much different from Xander during his Zeppo days) or Spike and it wouldn't have surprised me.

Poor Kennedy had just experienced a bitter disappointment -- she was a leader in the revolution and expected to have a place in the leadership of the new regime only to discover that she had less of a say with Faith in power than with Buffy. And she made it clear she wasn't expecting to be a participant in a democracy when she said that the older girls should be more equal than recent arrivals, she expected to be, if not the leader, at least part of the oligarchy. She needed a little validation. Willow was coaxed into having sex, but we've seen Willow use sex as an escape before (with Tara in Season Four, after Oz left town for good) so it's in character for her to want to hide from self-incriminations via sex.

Anya and Xander sitting in the kitchen, alone, listening to the grunting and groaning of the others. They're the least surprising couple. Xander might add in the need to feel like a man again after his eye was removed (and he was helpless to prevent it). Anya has been sexually frustrated for months.

"2. SPIKE'S SPEAK. Nothing wrong with Spike's little testimonial to Buffy's special-ness: well-written, and beautifully acted by Marsters and Gellar. But this was, almost down to the letter, the same speech Riley gave Buffy in "As You Were," ... Spike's pep talk and follow-up cuddling would probably cheer up any woman, but I was looking for something a little more profound and complex."

I was mostly bored at this stage. I didn't like Buffy blaming herself for the previous season by reminding Spike that he knew, better than anyone, that she had been cutting herself off from those who wished to connect with her. I did like Buffy's explanation for why she hasn't learned the Potentials' names -- that she didn't want to get too close because she knew some of them would die.

"4. SPIKE VS. FAITH. Yeah! A major snarkfest, and a kick ass fight scene to boot. Unpleasant truths aired out on both sides, and a promise of more to come--if Faith survives the bomb, of course."

I also enjoyed this scene -- as well as the one immediately before it where Willow tries to explain, in the best possible terms, why Buffy voluntarily left her own house to take a break from fighting evil. Spike contempt for this speech that Willow really knew was a lie and Willow's immediate retreat were classic. Someone in chat (anom, I think) said Willow regressed back to season one or two Willow, but I think that was the point. Deep down, she's still that girl, with all those insecurities (as Restless made clear) -- everything else is posturing and fantasy.

"It was ridiculously easy setting up Faith, Giles and the others to rush headlong into another trap. It's as if The First knew about their plan to set up Kennedy as "disgruntled minion" even before they did. (Once the gang took the Bringer into custody, it was all over. The First had completely outmaneuvered them.)"

I do think that Giles has been subverted (or replaced), but I don't think the First would need much of a spy network to set up the gang minus Buffy. I liked the irony -- banishing Buffy because they were (ostensibly) afraid she would lead them into a trap, then blithely walking into a trap themselves.

"The other side to this equation is The First's relationship to Buffy. It's interesting that when Buffy left the house, she apparently dropped off the First's radar."

And the First hasn't been playing mind games with Buffy -- no scary apparitions (unless you count her dreams, but that may not have been the First), no departed love ones telling lies mixed with dubious truths. Of all the people to pick, Buffy seems to be the best choice for mind games -- she's proven herself suggestible in the past and has more issues than the all the Scoobies combined. And yet, she appears to be immune. I think back to the first time Buffy met the First and she just ignored it -- it had no power whatsoever over her from that point on. The First derives its power from the people who listen to it -- if they simply ignore it, it is impotent. Wood, Faith, Willow and Dawn have all listened to the First and believed it to some degree. They have given the First the foothold in their souls. Buffy may be off the radar simply because she stood up to the First.

"And then there's Dawn. Are we supposed to believe she's suddenly an expert in Turkish and Sumerian and there's nothing funny going on? Is it possible the First is tapping into her Key-ness? (How else did Caleb know what Dawn said to Xander in "Potential"?)"

Maybe in the Buffyverse babblefish.com has a Sumerian translator :)

[> I doubt anyone dislikes AYW more than I do (Spoilers for Touched) -- Sophist, 10:37:41 05/07/03 Wed

but I agree with S'kat: Spike's speech to Buffy in Touched works, while Riley's speech in AYW was insulting. Lots of factors go into a successful speech: the exact words, the tone of voice, the circumstances. I'm not sure I could identify the exact reasons, but one worked and the other didn't. Spike didn't remind me of Riley, he reminded me of Xander in The Freshman. Given my notorious views about Xander, I guess I should add that this is high praise.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the love scenes. I thought they were all entirely in character and that W/K was particularly well done and necessary. We'll just reserve judgment on your manhood.....

My vote for the double agent is Giles. But, then, he's been my vote since BoTN.

[> [> Why did Spike's speech work and Riley's didn't? -- cjl, 12:28:54 05/07/03 Wed

OK, rethinking this and checking off the differences:

1. Riley comes back to Sunnydale with a brand new robot wife, and it gives the impression that he's lording it over Buffy with his happily-ever-afterness. The "you're still a hottie" comment should be complimentary, but it comes off as smarmy.

2. Spike, on the other hand, has no such marital handicap. He and Buffy are past the sexual part of the relationship, but the unconditional devotion part is still there. Maybe there's a little too much unconditional devotion (after all, look what happened to Xander), but let's not get into that.

3. Spike also gets props for:

a) 100+ years of (un)life experience
b) clarity of expression (maybe he is a poet after all)
c) dedication to goodness after reclaiming his soul.

4. Riley, OTOH, loses points for crawling back to the Army, even after his traumatic disillusionment in Season 4. Casts doubts about the boy's judgment.

5. The post-pep talk, non-coital Spuffy cuddling. I thought that was sweet.

I tend to agree that "resigning her commission," then getting a good night's sleep probably re-energized Buffy as much if not more than the speech did.

Still, I wish she didn't need a speech from Spike (or Xander or Riley) or any of the other men in her life to help her get back on her feet. I wish she'd been set right by an extremely cool, highly symbolic vision of Joyce or The First Slayer.

Girl power, remember?

[> [> [> Re: Why did Spike's speech work and Riley's didn't? -- dream, 12:34:51 05/07/03 Wed

Still, I wish she didn't need a speech from Spike (or Xander or Riley) or any of the other men in her life to help her get back on her feet. I wish she'd been set right by an extremely cool, highly symbolic vision of Joyce or The First Slayer.

Me, too.
But it may still happen. I don't think she's out of the woods yet - especially if it turns out she is not the "she" whose sword is in the stone.

[> [> [> Spike matters; Riley didn't -- dub ;o), 12:48:17 05/07/03 Wed

At least, Riley didn't matter by the time he gave the pep talk.

Still, I wish she didn't need a speech from Spike (or Xander or Riley) or any of the other men in her life to help her get back on her feet. I wish she'd been set right by an extremely cool, highly symbolic vision of Joyce or The First Slayer.

Girl power, remember?

My feelings exactly. What I'm fervently hoping for is a Buffy who needs neither Spike, nor Riley, nor Angel to empower her--a Buffy who empowers herself. Now that would be Joss at his finest.

;o)

[> [> [> [> Re: Spike matters; Riley didn't -- Rina, 13:00:40 05/07/03 Wed

Isn't that taking feminism a bit too far? I see nothing wrong with someone (whether they be male or female) giving her a bit of an emotional boost. And considering what had happened, she needed one. Buffy did the same for Spike in "Never Leave Me". He's repaying the favor, as far as I'm concerned.

[> [> [> [> [> not to mention completely bogus -- lunasea, 13:11:55 05/07/03 Wed

Humans just don't work that way. We don't for no apparent reason just pick ourselves up by our own bootstraps and figure out everything all by ourselves.

Buffy can be given the best pep talk ever written. It doesn't mean jack if it doesn't affect her. It is a partnership. Someone showing her through his eyes AND her realizing that is who she is. She needs both parts. No one is so self-aware that we can do this alone.

[> [> [> [> [> [> OOOh, jump on the bandwagon! -- dub, 13:23:03 05/07/03 Wed

I'm sorry...I don't believe you have any idea how humans work. You've shown it time and again in your frequent dismissive, misanthropic posts.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Could we please end this public animosity? -- LittleBit, 14:06:58 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I hear you, 'Bit. -- dub ;o), 14:36:58 05/07/03 Wed

It's not very pleasant to have lunasea and me sniping at each other constantly, is it? I probably will stop soon, but I'd like to explain my current mindset on the matter first.

I wrote a post in response to lunasea last night in a thread that was archived soon after, so it probably wasn't read by many. I said:

Y'know, in some ways I suppose I should feel cheapened, somehow, that the only way to get through to you is by lowering myself to employ the same tactics that you employ but...what the hell...I think I feel empowered. Yeah, that's it!

Have I gone too far? Hell, probably. It's like it's suddenly okay to belittle other posters (as long as they don't agree with my interpretation). It's okay to single-mindedly bash one character in order to sing the praises of another, as if appreciating both were mutually exclusive. It's okay to ignore any point in any post, no matter how pertinent or well-stated, if it tends to detract from my personal worldview. I've been freed from the shackles of polite discourse and reasoned discussion that previously tethered me to this board. Wow, I was so stifled by the atmosphere that used to prevail here, I actually used to erase negative, argumentative posts before approving them. Not anymore. I have seen the light.

Not that I believe you'll let this, or anything else go. But that's okay. My next personal challenge is to perfect the art of the filibuster post. The sky's the limit.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that this Board has become, for me and I daresay several others, a less enjoyable place since lunasea started her mammoth posts. Every day it seems there's some new diatribe, some repetitive Spike-bashing, some dismissive comment designed to have us believe that we are beknighted idiots consumed with fanwanking lust, unable to discern the true message, the STORY, THE story, whatever. It gets onerous.

Sensibly, the solution is just to ignore her posts, and many posters do that. I did for many weeks. Then I thought, why? Why do I refrain from expressing my opinions on this particular poster's ideas, when I wouldn't for any other poster? I'm certainly not afraid to confront her, or unsure of my position and the arsenal of logical rebuttal at my disposal.

No, I realized the problem was that logical rebuttal was of no use. lunasea ignores logical rebuttal and reiterates her position without change. The only thing that ever has gotten through her smug, arrogant posting persona is employment of the same tactics that she habitually uses.

As I said above, there's something cheapening about descending to this level, but there's something empowering about it, too. And I do enter into it in a spirit of fun, and light-hearted competition, although I know it doesn't come across that way. It is, perhaps, impossible to express those nuances in this medium.

Could you be persuaded to just nod knowingly and ignore me until I get it out of my system?

;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Time to let it go... -- Cactus Watcher, 15:20:05 05/07/03 Wed

I generally agree with everything you've said in this whole exchange. (The aliens in my fiction would probably be proud they're not included in her generalities about 'humans.') But, Lunasea isn't listening to anything you say. It's just too personal now. You're too good a person to let this go on.

Hey, if you want to get it out of your system, gripe about me for awhile! Here's a few for starters: Mind your own business, windbag! CW, if you tell one more story about the 'good old days' and I'm gonna scream, puke or both! Can't you ever stay on topic! Cacti suck! - Just a few suggestions. ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> AAAAAwwwww....okay -- dub ;o), 15:23:58 05/07/03 Wed

Y'made me cry, buddy, but in a good way.

All over now.

;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, dub -- mamcu, 09:49:29 05/08/03 Thu

I know you know this, but there's a boomeranging/magnifying thing about responding with hostility: it usually winds up hurting you more than them. I am definitely prone to that kind of thing myself, so keep this quote on my office fridge (just below the dirty fingerprints): "Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else: you are the one getting burned." (Buddha, supposedly at least) Which is probably just what CW was saying in a clearer way above.

It re-inforces my good intentions to see you being magnanimous, so thanks!

Also, sorry I won't get to meet the real you in Vancouver, cuz I can't go :o(

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, CW -- Random, 15:43:38 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Wow -- dub ;o), 13:19:17 05/07/03 Wed

Rina, you just made me realize how old I am. "In my day," as the saying goes, there was no such thing as taking feminism a bit too far. We could never quite take it far enough--LOL! How things have changed.

I'm not being sarcastic here. You have a very good point, and I agree that it was important for Spike to provide Buffy with the strength and support she needed at this time, and to allow her to "rest in peace" for a night.

I guess I'm talking about ultimately, rather than right now. Ultimately we're all alone; we have only ourselves to depend on. I know, "no woman is an island," yada-yada, but we are all ultimately forced to make our own decisions, our own choices, and to live with the results. What I want to see, ultimately, is, not only that Buffy has the power to do that within herself (we know she has), but that she realizes it and doesn't need anyone else to remind her.

;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yup. -- dream, 13:21:44 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yup. -- cjl, 13:23:43 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What? You guys were separated a birth??!! -- dub ::laughing in amazement::, 13:27:01 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> I hope to see this too. -- Arethusa, 13:41:17 05/07/03 Wed

But before she gets there, she might still have to resolve her Daddy issues. That might include hearing from a former lover that she is loved despite/because of her faults, facing down Caleb the male authority figure, and finally saying good-bye to Angel and her girlhood romantic ideals.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well put!!! -- Caroline, 15:12:03 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> yes, but it's nice to have a little encouragement -- sk, 13:46:24 05/07/03 Wed

It's not like he went with her to take on Caleb or anything.
Sometimes we just need someone to tell us we're great. Particularly when everyone we love has kicked us out of our own house and forsaken us.

Remember Buffy is only human or supposed to be human character not an archetype for superwoman.

[> [> [> See leslie's post below mine, she puts it best. ;-) Also... -- s'kat, 13:23:37 05/07/03 Wed

Also the biggest difference in Riley and Spike's speechs is context.

Riley starts out his speech with : "You're sleeping with an idiot and smell of Double Meat" and Buffy has just finished telling him that he clearly is getting off on being better than she is right now. His speech is in response to her angry assault - which I think there was more than a little truth to.

Spike on the other hand starts his off in response to Buffy's pity ditty and her claim that he only likes her because she's unattainable.

Sophist and leslie are right - Spike's speech has more in common with Buffy's I believe in you Spike speech from Never Leave Me and Xander's I believe in you Buffy speech from Freshman.

Context is everything.

And don't worry, I think Buffy's empowerment won't be coming from any man in her life. It's not over yet. Unless I've missed my guess - Buffy's big moment isn't quite
what everyone expects.

[> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- ponygirl, 11:06:21 05/07/03 Wed

You've summed up many of my likes and dislikes about this episode nicely. I did really like Touched but it felt a bit uneven, and certain scenes didn't give me the oomph I would have thought (except for the end, that was excellent). I don't blame RRK, I liked the writing, but for some reason the direction and/or editing felt quite off, though I did like the handheld camerawork at the beginning. It perfectly illustrated the sudden loss of leadership - for a few scenes every voice and perspective had equal weight, and the result was dizzying.

It was ridiculously easy setting up Faith, Giles and the others to rush headlong into another trap.

I'm surprised Faith didn't take the Seal bait (ahem) thrown at Buffy by Caleb last week. I guess the Seal and the school are being saved for the Big Battle. Still the armory set-up was too easy. At the very least the suggestion that the Bringer was part of a hive mind ("we") should have made the gang wonder if their line of questioning wasn't being broadcast back to the collective.

Oh God. There's only two weeks left. (SOB.)

I KNOW! I think I'm officially starting to freak out.

[> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- Dariel, 11:15:44 05/07/03 Wed

I'm disappointed that ME seems to think Buffy's legitimate psychic turmoil and almost irreconcilable conflict between her calling as the Slayer and her humanity can be ameliorated by a pep talk. Granted, Spike's pep talk and follow-up cuddling would probably cheer up any woman, but I was looking for something a little more profound and complex.

Well, I think this could be a sign of a more introspective Buffy, one who has been aware of the conflict all the way. In the previous two eps, she took the Generalismo stance to its logical extreme, and look where it got her. She was ready for a change; Spike, and a good night's sleep, just gave her the space to make to it.

I actually had a different problem with Spike, could just be my imagination. He tells Buffy that he's never been one for planning, for thinking things out, that he follows [his?] blood. He just doesn't seem like his usual sharp self here; more like a working-class stereotype of the tough-but-not-so-bright guy with a heart of gold. As if his character were being dumbed down somehow.

[> [> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- Chris, 15:25:22 05/07/03 Wed

No, not just your imagination unless we are sharing a brain. I think back to HLOD. Spike was the one to find the apparently mythical Gem of Amara that had been lost for millenia. He just gets impatient and sometimes hasn't taken the time to allow for his fully thought out plans to come to fruition (School Hard, In the Dark, etc). But his reference last night to him not being a bright guy, to me, does not really fit into his actual persona (just into what others seemed to think of him - Buffy's comments in ATW).

[> [> [> It doesn't fit who he is, but... ('Touched' and LMPTM spoilers) -- Xaverri, 17:43:27 05/07/03 Wed

it probably does fit who he THINKS he is. Spike is full of false bravado, not confidence. He has been told that he is worthless by almost everyone his whole life. The few people who ever did believe in him, turned on him at some point (his mum, Dru, even Buffy). He doesn't think of himself as talented or smart, he thinks of himself as a bloody awful poet who is only really worthwhile in a brawl. He is much much more than that, but that's not what he believes. I think that is why he's so quick to drop his plans for action. If his plans failed, it would only further prove his incompetence - something he believes will happen. By jumping the gun he can blame losses on impatience, not stupidity.

Anyway, I really think that's a big part of his attraction to Buffy. Even when she was telling him he was a loser, she emotionally needed him. He wants desparately to be needed for more than his brawn. All it took was one "I believe in you" from the Buffster and he was holding up against the FE. It's probably the first serious statement of faith he's gotten since he turned his mum.

[> [> [> [> Re: It doesn't fit who he is, but... ('Touched' and LMPTM spoilers) -- Dariel, 18:56:22 05/07/03 Wed

Well, this putting himself down, and Faith's comments about him being "whipped," have me, one of the last remaining B/S fans, uneasy. Spike seems content to stay "beneath" her, which is no basis for a relationship, romantic or just friendly.

On the other hand, perhaps the evil ME is setting us up for a situation where Spike, in order to do the right thing, must go against Buffy.

No spoilers, by the way, just anxious speculation. I haven't a clue what's coming next!

[> [> [> [> [> You're not the only one left; we just got quieter to be nice to the remaining B/A shippers ;) (NT) -- Xaverri, 19:32:35 05/07/03 Wed

:)

[> [> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- lookslikeelsie, 15:33:45 05/07/03 Wed

I actually thought Spike's comment about following his blood rather than his brains was a nice allusion to his "love isn't brains children, it's blood" speech from Lover's Walk in season 3.

BTW, longtime lurker, first-time poster here. Thought I'd slip a post in before Buffy's gone for good. Sniff.

[> [> [> Oops. Showing my newbie colours. Should have been in reply to Chris. -- lookslikeelsie, 15:36:08 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Welcome! And if you were really a newbie... -- dub ;o), 15:50:36 05/07/03 Wed

...you would have typed (NT) at the end of your subject line, instead of just letting voy insert it!

;o)

[> [> [> Re: A Spy in the House of Love (spoilers for 'Touched') -- Chris, 16:06:10 05/07/03 Wed

Good point and one I should have thought of. Makes sense. Thanks.

[> Working through the conflict b/t slayerness and humanity -- pilgrim, 15:55:36 05/08/03 Thu

I appreciated your comment that Buffy is dealing with the turmoil caused by the conflict between her slayer calling and her humanity, and I wanted to think about that some more.

That's not a new conflict for her, but it's getting a new spin this season. This year she's the leader, and she's responsible for protecting the lives of the potentials as well as saving the slayer line. Achieving the one goal (saving the line) seems to require failing at the other goal. The only way to save the line is to defeat the purpose of the FE, and the only way to defeat the FE's purpose is to fight the FE. Fighting the FE means losing the lives of some of the girls. It's a trap Buffy hasn't been able to figure a way out of.

Is there a way out? Is there a way of defeating the FE's purpose without risking any lives? Or, rather, without risking more lives? Maybe, but I don't think so.

I've been thinking a lot lately about the consequences of making decisons, taking action in the world. One reason why--the war in Iraq. How do you act, what do you do, when you know that your actions will result in some evil being done? That no matter what you do or don't do, someone is going to get hurt or killed. Do you not act? Do you relinquish the responsibility of leadership? Do you calculate the least harmful alternative, and act knowing that your actions will cause some harm? How do you figure the least harmful alternative, not having a crystal ball?

This dilemma is what Buffy is wrestling with in Touched, it seems to me. She could, perhaps, keep the potentials safe by going it alone, or by joining up with just Faith and the other experienced warriors. But imo the potentials have to join in this fight--they have something at stake and there isn't any way to protect them from the FE (or more generally from the the evil in the world). So the trade-off. Risking lives so that the slayer line can be saved.

How does Buffy keep her humanity while she is making this trade-off? How does she keep from turning into a monster while she's fighting the battles? She hasn't done a good job of that so far this season. She deliberately cut herself off from her friends and the potentials so as to protect herself from hurting when some of them were killed. A reasonable response, but it has cost her and them in failed communication, misunderstanding, lost opportunities. Buffy needs to maintain her humanity or she can't do her job properly. So she's going to have to hurt. Part of the price of leadership.

This is where Spike's speech comes in, as I see it. Spike reminds Buffy of her humanity. He reminds her that she is, in fact, connected. She isn't as cut off as she thinks. And although it hurts to stay connected, there is an up-side too. Spike is living proof of that up-side. She saved him because she was willing to risk getting close to him.

Spike's job here is not to reason with Buffy--how can reason really help here? Spike gives her a couple of platitutes--there are always casualties in war, they need you, without you it's chaos. But that doesn't help. What helps is when Spike talks about having made his own mistakes, and when he talks about how sure he is of her humanity--how hard she tries, her kindness, and her strength. He reminds her that she has the heart to act, even when those actions necessarily risk the lives of people she cares about, because she can turn pain into strength. She did just that with him.

Is location the key to being called? (Thoughts on becoming the Slayer -- Vash the Stampede, 10:34:42 05/07/03 Wed

Just had this thought at work: if a potential is closer to supernatural activity than all the others, will she be the one to be called as the next slayer? Buffy was called shortly before she moved to the Hellmouth; was this just a coincidence, or was it fate? If Buffy, for whatever reason, never got close to Sunnydale (maybe in an alternate universe her family moved to New York for example),would she still have been called?

Also, if location is key, what would happen now that all the potentials are in one place? Would the power go to the youngest? Oldest? Strongest? The most skilled? Or would it just be a roll of the dice.

Something to think about.

Vash

[> Re: Is location the key to being called? (Thoughts on becoming the Slayer -- Vickie, 10:49:47 05/07/03 Wed

My working hypothesis is that the "best candidate available" gets called. By that, I mean that the slayer power flows to the best possible channel for that power among the potentials on the planet.

Of course, unless we get a spinoff show, I'm unlikely to see my hypothesis tested.

An admittedly snarky expression of curiousity. (Spoilers for Touched) -- Sophist, 11:01:00 05/07/03 Wed

After all the posts berating "Generalissima Buffy", her "inability to see a trap", and her "lousy tactics", I just know I'm going to read dozens of similar criticisms of Faith's behavior in Touched. After all, no one would dream of applying a double standard.

I'll keep reading. Darn things must be here somewhere....

[> Might as well post it, since I was THINKING it pretty loud. -- Solitude1056, 11:22:29 05/07/03 Wed

I mean, big argument: don't go into suicidal stupid tactical movement, and we don't want to go with you, either. So what happens? The research backs up Buffy's gut instinct, but there's no real specific information otherwise. And now the whole lot of them are doing just what they told Buffy they wouldn't do. I kept waiting for someone to explain the logic. My second priority, of course, was figuring out how Spike knew all of what he knew when his scene consisted of walking in, hearing Willow's explanation, getting his ass kicked, and walking out. Say, he psychic now, too?

Or something.

Yeah, it definitely felt like a wierd push-for-the-plot rather than letting the characters move the action. Unless, of course, we're to believe that Faith agreed with Buffy all along. I dunno.

[> [> Wait - aren't they doing something else? -- dream, 11:29:52 05/07/03 Wed

I thought they didn't go the winery (where presumably Caleb was). They went to the previously-unknown underground arsenal where the Bringers would be - but they think they can handle Bringers. And they can.

[> [> [> Exactly -- Masq, 11:42:45 05/07/03 Wed

Faith and the Potentials walked into Caleb's trap, they just didn't know where the trap would be. And they didn't know there WAS a trap. Of course walking into Caleb's vineyard is a bad idea--they got their asses kicked their last time. And they didn't go there.

Faith did her best, IMO. She was handed the reigns she Didn't Want, BTW, and she took charge of the situation. But she has less experience than Buffy and while her instincts were right about being able to take on the Bringers, her instincts didn't tell her it was a trap until it was too late.

Buffy's "Generalisimo" thing was a problem not because Buffy wanted to be in charge and give orders--that's her right--but because she'd cut herself off from her friends and the Potentials. She admitted as much to Spike. She couldn't be their leader and their friend both. She knew some of them would die.

What's interesting to me is that it was only AFTER Faith took on the burden of leading the Potentials--AFTER she relieved Buffy of that burden--that Buffy could succeed in her plans to discover what was in Caleb's winery. If Buffy had gone back in there with a team of Potentials and friends, I think it would have ended up the way it did before, the way things ended up for Faith in the sewers.

The "coup" against Buffy was poorly done and probably not motivated by the best intentions, but it was exactly what Buffy needed--she needed to be free of the burden and responsibility for the Potential's lives. It was too much for her emotionally and it was making it difficult for her to be the Slayer.

She needed to be Season 1 Buffy again, heading into danger all by herself without Giles' permission or her friends tagging along and doing her job as the Slayer nevertheless.

I don't fault Faith for what happened to Faith and the others. I don't fault Faith for taking charge of the situation and making the tough decisions.

[> [> [> [> Re: Exactly -- DEN, 12:36:16 05/07/03 Wed

Was it even a trap, in the direct way the winery was earlier? I may have missed something vial, but the bomb seemed to be more of a "passive security system," activated only when the trunk was opened, than a device deliberately planted to catch a raiding party. Certainly it was not "front and center" in the main storage area; the Potentials only found it during the mop-up. As for opening it--OK, mot the most prudent behavior. But in seven years, this is the first time I can recall "Sunnydale evil" seriously resorting to "modern" weapons. Darla's MAC-10 in s1 and the high-tech Germans of "Homecoming" were one-offs. So it's not as though there's a pattern.

[> [> [> [> Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Sophist, 13:03:12 05/07/03 Wed

I'd find it pretty hard to defend either Faith's behavior or her tactics. Behavior first:

Buffy may have "cut herself off" (or maybe not -- I don't think it's quite that clear even if Buffy herself agrees), but Faith never had any connection. If the sin is failing to connect, both are equally guilty.

At least until EP, Buffy never said anything as direct or harsh as Faith's "Shut up and listen, I'm the boss."

Buffy did not have sex with any of the troops.

Now for tactics:

1. Buffy got her information from a reliable source (the Potential who was stabbed). Faith got information from a minion of the enemy who was certainly capable of lying and possibly under mind control all along.

2. Buffy did recon first. Faith did none.

3. Faith may only have expected Bringers, but she had no way to know that Caleb wouldn't be at the "arsenal". Buffy had no way of knowing about Caleb's power, but Faith did.

4. Buffy did not take all the Potentials with her. Faith seemingly did (it was not clear).

5. Buffy left a force in reserve. Faith did not.

6. Faith failed to send a scouting party down a dark tunnel, instead taking the entire group with her.

I only hope there are some troops left to follow the next general.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Grant, 14:20:07 05/07/03 Wed

I disagree with a lot of your behavior and tactical judgements. Taking them one at a time:

Buffy may have "cut herself off" (or maybe not -- I don't think it's quite that clear even if Buffy herself agrees), but Faith never had any connection. If the sin is failing to connect, both are equally guilty.

Huh? Faith was probably the person who connected the most with everyone since she came. She connected with Spike in their basement scene on the challenges of trying to do the right thing. She connected with Wood outside before the meeting. She also was the only one who seemed to notice that Buffy was falling apart, doing a number of things to try and protect her, like telling Dawn to shut up and bringing the potentials out to release stress when they were ready to mutiny and run away. She also had more of a connection with the potentials than Buffy. As she said, she actually took the time to know their names. Buffy can't be totally at fault for not connecting, because part of being a leader is being somewhat disconnected. However, a General must also always put forth a good face to the troops. After Dirty Girls, Buffy stopped acting like a leader and looked like a weak and confused human. How could she possibly expect people who barely knew her to follow her under those circumstances?

At least until EP, Buffy never said anything as direct or harsh as Faith's "Shut up and listen, I'm the boss."

Um, did you miss the "Everybody Sucks But Me" speech? What Faith said was necessary, because everybody was busy arguing over how to argue. She needed to set herself apart as a new leader in order to get everybody organized. And it is also important to note that she did not want the job. She even tried to turn it down. But when the job was given to her she needed a way to step up and get things done without having to listen to Kennedy whine every five seconds. And, I think that it is also worth noting that the strategy scene in the basement was actually very similar to the way the SG used to strategize. You know, with trying to find a weakness and doing research and coming up with a plan. Not just marching in, assuming you are right, and suffering no argument or dissension.

Buffy did not have sex with any of the troops.

Well, except for Spike. But we all know that that relationship did not lead to any favoritism.

1. Buffy got her information from a reliable source (the Potential who was stabbed). Faith got information from a minion of the enemy who was certainly capable of lying and possibly under mind control all along.

And where did the potential get the information? Wasn't that from Caleb? Not exactly a particularly reliable or trustworthy source. And this is information that he wanted them to have, that he specifically left for Willow and Faith so that Buffy would get it. That should ring a few alarms right there. Meanwhile, the SG had to get information out of the bringer by using a spell, and then had to do more research through maps and plans to find the exact spot of the arsenal.

2. Buffy did recon first. Faith did none.

Right, and the recon showed that there was every indication that this was a trap. Faith even pointed this out, and Buffy's only response was something along the lines of "I don't care." She also did no research about the vineyard or its plans and layout. There could very well have been a giant bomb or an army of ubervamps within it for all her recon told her. Faith may not have actually scouted out the place ahead of time, but she did do research and got complete plans of the area.

Another important distinction is that there was much more reason to be skeptical of Buffy's intel than Faith's. Buffy's intel was handed to her on a silver platter. It also failed to give any proof that the mission was of any value; they had no idea what Caleb had of hers. All of this screamed trap, hence the recon, which seemed to prove that it was a trap. Buffy ignored this recon and went ahead, getting caught in a trap. Faith meanwhile extracted info only by capturing a bringer who was not intentionally trying to get captured and using a spell to make him capable of talking. The FE exercised an almost unbelievable level of foresight to somehow know that the SG would find a mystical Turkish talk to the dead spell that would let them talk to the Bringer.

3. Faith may only have expected Bringers, but she had no way to know that Caleb wouldn't be at the "arsenal". Buffy had no way of knowing about Caleb's power, but Faith did.

But Buffy knew that Caleb was at the Vinyard and wanted to go there anyway. How can you fault Faith for wanting to go someplace where there was only a minor chance Caleb might be, while not faulting Buffy for wanting to go someplace that she knew Caleb was. And remember, when Buffy first came up with her plan she did not present the whole let's be agile and dodge him tactic. She wanted another frontal assault. If she had actually stopped to listen to her troops for a second, which was all most of them were asking her to do, she might have come up with this plan and they would not have deposed her.

4. Buffy did not take all the Potentials with her. Faith seemingly did (it was not clear).

She actually didn't take all of them. You are right that it isn't very clear, but in the little pre-mission briefing she says, "Those of you who are coming with me to the arsenal, you know who you are." This seems to suggest that like Buffy, she only took the older, more experienced potentials.

5. Buffy left a force in reserve. Faith did not.

The reserves were completely ineffectual, though, something Faith saw firsthand because she was one of them. She may have thought things would have gone better if she had been there from the start, meaning that even if Caleb knocked out Buffy he still would have had one slayer to deal with, rather than just having Spike and being free to terrorize the potentials until the second wave arrived. Also, Faith had a much smaller force than Buffy. She was without Buffy, Spike, Xander, and the potentials who died in the previous raid. The most experienced person she could have put in command of the reserves would have been Kennedy, and we have all seen that people tend to hang themselves whenever Kennedy is in charge of anything.

Another point is that in standard military tactics, a reserve unit for an attacking force is mainly around to serve two purposes. A minor, little used one is to be a second wave of attack in case the first wave is not strong enough to carry the day. This usually is not the case, though, because the far more important role of the reserves is to guard the retreat in case things do not go well. That way, the attacking forces have safe ground to retreat to without worrying about enemy soldiers in their rear, and the line will also hold if the attacking unit is routed. In this case, it was pretty much a raiding party with no line to hold and a decent escape route through the tunnel system. A reserve unit was not really necessary, and would have merely taken away from the numbers of the main unit. One of the most important military strategies is to never divide your forces if you can avoid it, and, as the results of the battle showed, Faith was right in keeping one strong party rather than two weaker ones.

6. Faith failed to send a scouting party down a dark tunnel, instead taking the entire group with her.

She had already scouted the area via plans and diagrams. Since it was a surprise raid, there was nothing else she could do. Take, for example, the SpecOps raid to rescue Jessica Lynch during operation Iraqi Freedom. In that raid, the US command got the Iraqi informant to give them as much information in the form of maps and descriptions as possible, but there was no way to send a scouting party without alerting the Iraqis. So they simply had to go in in force with the information they could access. And it worked. The same thing happened here. A scouting party would have failed, because it would have just been slaughtered by the attacking bringers. It could not have discovered the bomb before taking out these bringers, so its utility in this circumstance is difficult to see.

One thing that I think is important to point out is that Faith's strategy and tactics worked perfectly. The potentials won the battle with no casualties that I saw. Her only fault was in failing to predict that the FE was so omnipotent that it could predict the movements of the SG to such an extent as to have a bomb set to go off within 8 seconds of when the battle ended and Faith reached it.

On a somewhat related note, is anyone else really confused by the FE's "plan." It has an incredibly powerful warrior with no constraints that I can see. If Caleb is vulnerable to standard attacks, he certainly hasn't shown it. So why doesn't the First just send Caleb to the Summers house to maim and kill everyone there? Heck, he could even bring along a few bringers just for good measure. After EP, I thought that maybe they needed Buffy or at least Faith alive to access the magical scythe thing. But that still does not explain why Caleb doesn't go and kill pretty much everyone else. Also, in Touched it seemed pretty clear that Caleb and the First thought they could gain access to the scythe on their own, which is why they had all the bringers drilling and stuff. So, the question becomes why lead Buffy to the vineyard in the first place? It is the site of the weapon that apparently is the key to their success or defeat, and yet she did not even know it existed before Caleb told her (via Shannon). So why did he tell her? I know he wanted to have an ambush, but there were many other sites for an ambush that still would have kept the location of the scythe a secret.

Hopefully, it will be cleared up in the next two episodes, because right now the whole "plan" thing Caleb and the First are always talking about makes very little sense.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Sophist, 20:00:43 05/07/03 Wed

Faith was probably the person who connected the most with everyone since she came.

I see your "HUH" and raise you one. Faith interacted with several people, but I saw no meaningful connection with anyone. Dawn and Giles were cold. Andrew made a point of how disrespectful she was to him. Spike was cautious. Her interaction with Wood in EP was downright snarky. Faith made a point of commenting to Spike about the annoying quality of the Potentials. She made a point of reminding Anya that she "had" Xander first. She had no contact at all that we saw with Xander or Willow.

In terms of "connecting", we saw (1) the scene with Kennedy and Amanda in the kitchen, and (2) the Bronze.

Forget about the Potentials. Any comparison of Faith's "connection" with Xander (pun intended in his case), Willow, Dawn, Spike, or Giles to Buffy's connection with them seems pretty weak to me. And that's accounting for Buffy's isolation this year and last.

did you miss the "Everybody Sucks But Me" speech?

Context. Buffy has known Spike and Willow for 6-7 years. She has a relationship with them which allows her to say things directly to them. They both knew she was right (Willow admitted it in Touched).

Faith had been Supreme Leader for all of 10 minutes when she burst out. She had no relationship with any of the participants. Hers was a blunt statement of power. It mystifies me how anyone could justify Faith (pun intended) while criticizing Buffy.

Right, and the recon showed that there was every indication that this was a trap.

It showed that there were Bringers, meaning she could expect to find Caleb there also, i.e., it told her where Caleb was. She had no way to expect Caleb's power; she at least had some idea how many Bringers were there.

By failing to do recon, Faith had no idea who might be waiting for her.

Faith meanwhile extracted info only by capturing a bringer who was not intentionally trying to get captured and using a spell to make him capable of talking.

The Bringer's behavior screamed "TRAP". It was clearly mind controlled. It was obvious to me that it was a trap.

Buffy knew that Caleb was at the Vinyard and wanted to go there anyway.

I'm talking about Buffy's first plan, the one that resulted in Xander's wound. You're talking about the second plan, which was never executed. My point is that Faith's actual, executed plan was certainly no better than Buffy's and probably much worse.

The reserves were completely ineffectual

This is irrelevant to the failure to have them the next time.

A scouting party would have failed, because it would have just been slaughtered by the attacking bringers

I meant she should have sent a scouting party before going further down the tunnel (and further into a trap). You're argument from hindsight about the scouts does not mean she shouldn't have used them.

The Special Ops raid is a poor analogy. That didn't involve the entire US Army. Faith's "raid" pretty much did.

One thing that I think is important to point out is that Faith's strategy and tactics worked perfectly. The potentials won the battle with no casualties that I saw. Her only fault was in failing to predict that the FE was so omnipotent that it could predict the movements of the SG to such an extent as to have a bomb set to go off within 8 seconds of when the battle ended and Faith reached it.

Exactly the same could be said of Buffy's plan up to the point when Caleb knocked her out.

S'kat makes additional good points in her post. I adopt them as well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Grant, 22:50:18 05/07/03 Wed

I see your "HUH" and raise you one. Faith interacted with several people, but I saw no meaningful connection with anyone.

I would raise you another huh, but I'm pretty certain that you can't huh a double-huh (Note: the preceeding was a silly and useless reference to a silly and useless movie).

I think you are missing a lot of Faith's connection with other people. Spike was cold? They had a long, friendly, flirtatious conversation that involved both of them confiding a bunch of personal info in each other. There certainly did not seem to be any coldness between them when they were laying pretty close to each other on the bed.

Andrew? Did Andrew not complain about anybody? Faith stole his hot-pocket, but Buffy had him tied up for a while, ignored him for pretty much the whole time he was untied, and then nearly killed him. He certainly did not seem too upset working with Faith in briefing the potentials before the mission.

Her connection with Wood was actually pretty strong. The scene in EP was a lot about them reading each other, which means they understand their motivations. Wood felt he had a good idea about what was motivating Faith and who she was at that point, which is why he felt comfortable standing up for her at the meeting when Buffy tried to shoot her down. That seems like a connection to me.

I'll give you Xander, but to say that she had no connection with Willow is to ignore everything that happened on Angel. There Willow saw a Faith that was not only reformed, but sacrificed herself and pulled off the impossible to bring back Angel when it would have been much, much easier just to take out Angelus. That definitely had an impact on Willow, as well as the fact that they both have a common history of being reformed murderers. They also shared a pretty long car ride, which certainly gave them some time to connect. Willow therefore had plenty of reason to both trust Faith and assume that she could make a good leader, because she saw what a good job she did in LA.

I don't really need to talk much about the potentials and who they had a connection with. They did choose, after all.

As for Giles, well, apparently Buffy had learned all she needed to learn from him. It is very good to know that in her early twenties she had risen to such a high level that she could ignore her mentor, her friends, and pretty much everyone else. And that is the reason that Buffy had no connection left with anyone. She completely cut them off. In the first attack, a number of people commented that it was probably a trap and a not a good idea, she ignored them, and they said, "Well, Buffy has led us well in the past, so let's follow her." That was an abysmal failure. So what was Buffy's next move? She wanted to do the same thing over again, still refusing to listen to anyone. And can you honestly tell me that the second attack would have gone any better? Besides figuring out the location of the secret weapon nobody new existed through an exercise in some of the worst logic I have ever witnessed, there was nothing valid about her plan. Another frontal assault would have led to more dead potentials, more serious injuries, and no gain. But Buffy refused to listen to criticism or even accept that others could criticize her. Given that, why would you support her no matter your connection to her?
Throwing in your other point from the other post here because it is the most convenient spot: Buffy did not sleep with Spike while she was being General (and no, she was not General in S6). Faith slept with Wood within 24 hours.

The favoritism argument is too big to cover here. My views are set out at length in the archives. Buffy did not give Spike special treatment. At all.

Faith, in contrast, protected Wood. She left him safe at home instead of walking him into the trap.

I'm not sure I agree with your no favoritism argument throughout the season. Even the writers suggested that Buffy had a readily apparent Spike obsession when one of the potentials (Rona, IIRC) responded to Buffy mentioning Spike by saying something like, "What is it with you and this Spike guy? This isn't about him."

Anyway, the moment for me that suggests Buffy has an illogical and detrimental Spike fixation is when she stated that Spike was the only one who watched her back. This statement was made in the presence of four people who had known her and fought with her since before Spike was even trying to kills her (technically Dawn has now been there since the beginning). To ignore them in favor of a guy who was trying to kill them about two years prior is essentially stabbing her friends and loved ones in the back while they are down. That is why I feel that Buffy's relationship with Spike was much more of a liability than Faith's with Wood.

Indeed, I even had a completely different view of Faith's treatment of Wood the next day than you did. To me, she was blowing him off, in the standard way Faith blows off guys she had a "connection" with. This means that despite their relationship she was not going to give him any special treatment or consideration. She did not need him in the fight, so he was out of it.

I could not, for example, see Faith letting Wood get unchained if he a) was proven to be killing people under the control of the first, b) had just shown that he still had the trigger that gave the first control of him in place by injuring someone, and c) was unwilling to work to try to get rid of the trigger because he did not feel like getting into his mother issues.

Context. Buffy has known Spike and Willow for 6-7 years. She has a relationship with them which allows her to say things directly to them. They both knew she was right (Willow admitted it in Touched).

Faith had been Supreme Leader for all of 10 minutes when she burst out. She had no relationship with any of the participants. Hers was a blunt statement of power. It mystifies me how anyone could justify Faith (pun intended) while criticizing Buffy.

I agree that context is important here, but in a different way. Faith was rough, but it was needed to restore order considering the chaos present at the time. It may have hurt Kennedy's feelings a little, but everyone got over it pretty quickly. In fact, it helped to make everyone work as a solid team for the rest of the ep. Everything, from planning to apprehending the bringer to interrogating him to the raid itself was run as a fluid team unit. Faith's roughness was just the thing needed at the moment to get everyone working with each other instead of against each other.

Buffy's speech, meanwhile, sucked. It was just a childish rant that accomplished very little. It may have been effective with Spike, but that's about it. It frightened and angered the potentials, only they weren't angry at the first but rather at Buffy. It was really a horrible way to try and organize her troops. I'm not saying that such a speech could never be used, but in this case the timing and presentation was way off. The entire speech was well summed up with "everybody sucks but me," which is something a leader, who takes responsibility for the whole group, should never, ever say. Because frankly, as bad as some of the others were during that period, Buffy certainly did very little that set her above criticism.

It showed that there were Bringers, meaning she could expect to find Caleb there also, i.e., it told her where Caleb was. She had no way to expect Caleb's power; she at least had some idea how many Bringers were there.

By failing to do recon, Faith had no idea who might be waiting for her.

Neither did Buffy. Her recon consisted of seeing the vineyard and noting that the bringers went there. All she knew was that some bringers were there. She didn't actually even know that Caleb was there beyond him telling her. He could have been hanging out across town relying on the bringers to do the job for him. There could have been bombs, hundreds of bringers and ubervamps, gorillas, or even the Spanish Inquisition in the vineyard for all she knew. And she really didn't care to know much more. Note how many times people commented not only that it could be a trap, but that they had no good info about the vineyard beyond what Caleb gave them, Buffy's response remained that she did not care. That is not good leadership.

Faith actually did research with the rest of the group and new the layout of the tunnels. She knew that the primary enemy there were bringers from what the bringer told them, that they work there. Everyone, including Buffy, seemed pretty convinced that Caleb was sticking to the vineyard (as little sense as that makes overall, as I discussed in the last post). It is also difficult to see how additional recon could have been done in these tunnel system.

Anyway, I think the important point is not who did recon and who did not, but what was gained by the recon they did. I don't see any way to do recon in the subway system, but I think that the interrogation and research were good substitutes. In the vineyard case, internal recon was also difficult. The external recon, however, said that this was a trap. And Buffy ignored it. So, really, even if we assumed that recon is a very important factor in both cases, who comes off worse: Faith, who did only research, no actual recon, or Buffy, who did recon and then ignored what that recon was telling her?

The Bringer's behavior screamed "TRAP". It was clearly mind controlled. It was obvious to me that it was a trap.

Um, how? The mind control is true. However, if the first had complete control over the bringer's speech and wanted to use it as a trap, why cut out its tongue? That is one of the reasons why, from the perspective of the SG, it did not appear to be a trap but rather solid intel that they worked quite hard to get. It was not like the lead henchman told a potential slayer the information and then left her for them to find. Now that situation would be suspicious.

And, again, one important point is that you fault Faith for not doing the same things that you are willing to exonerate Buffy for doing, even though she did them very poorly. Sure, Faith did not read some of the clues that suggested that this could be a trap. Neither did any other member of the SG. However, in DG the clues were much more obvious. Everyone picked up on them and constantly told Buffy that she was making a mistake. And then she not only ignored them and made the mistake, but attempted to do the same thing twice. That is simply bad leadership.

I'm talking about Buffy's first plan, the one that resulted in Xander's wound. You're talking about the second plan, which was never executed. My point is that Faith's actual, executed plan was certainly no better than Buffy's and probably much worse.

Actually, I'm talking about both. Buffy's ignored what everyone and everything was telling her and plunged them in to disaster. She then attempted to do the same thing again, without exercising any leadership to convince her demoralized troops that it would be worthwhile or successful this time.

Also, I think you mistake where Faith's plan ends. Her plan was a complete success. It was to conduct a raid on the arsenal, kill the bringers, and gain access to their weapons. That was a complete success. The failure was that at least one of these weapons was a bomb meant to kill them. But that was outside of the actual attack plan, which itself was a complete success. Buffy's first attack plan, which was similar in that it's goal was to gain access to something that the First/Caleb had, failed completely. The thing was not gotten, and there were significant casualties. Her second plan, which was largely a repeat of the first, showed no signs it would be more successful. Even her third plan, the one that actually succeeded, would have failed if there were any bringers around. However, if Buffy had found that there was just a bag of chips in the basement of the vineyard, her plan to get those chips would have been a success. She just would not have gained much by its success.

To draw an analogy with the contemporary military, imagine two generals plan two separate assaults to get two separate cities. One's plan goes well and he secures the city with little trouble. The other's plan does not go so well, and while he eventually secures the city he takes significant casualties. We could therefore say that the first general's plan was better than the second's. If it turned out that the first city was of no strategic value and the second city was of great strategic value, that would not change the fact that the first general had the far better plan.

Of course, you could argue that Faith's assault only succeeded because the first wanted it to. I would say that this is a little questionable, because there certainly were a lot of hard-fighting bringers there. The lack of bringers in the vineyard suggest that a very significant percentage of the first's bringers were at the arsenal. Also, if the bomb was a defensive measure, then the attack was successful both in the plan, which secured the goal with no casualties, and in the objective, which was to deprive the First of whatever weapons it had there.

This is irrelevant to the failure to have them the next time.

No it's not. If a tactic proves ineffectual and wasteful, a smart general would not do it again. This was something Buffy obviously did not learn until Touched, since in EP she wanted to repeat the failed plan of DG with no real changes. Faith would have been a bad leader to repeat a useless and wasteful strategy like leaving behind reserves, particularly in a tactical situation that did not call for them.

I meant she should have sent a scouting party before going further down the tunnel (and further into a trap). You're argument from hindsight about the scouts does not mean she shouldn't have used them.

But, as I have stated, there was no problem with the plan. It succeeded. They won the battle. Why was a scouting party or recon needed? Neither of these things would have improved the results, which were already a complete victory, nor would they have detected the bomb.

The Special Ops raid is a poor analogy. That didn't involve the entire US Army. Faith's "raid" pretty much did.

That's being a little picky. Obviously the analogy breaks down eventually. What I meant to suggest is that when conducting a raid you often need to use the best data available. When there is no way to scout a location and when you are trying to preserve some concept of the element of surprise, you often have to rely on more indirect scouting, like the research Faith and the SG did or the maps and descriptions US SpecOps units relied on in this case, as well as many other cases. And there are certainly plenty of cases of entire armies moving more or less blind. In fact, some of the best military campaigns in history involved armies cutting off from their scouts and making sudden and decisive movements on less direct intel.

Exactly the same could be said of Buffy's plan up to the point when Caleb knocked her out.

The difference is that Faith had little to no sign she was walking in to a trap. Can you honestly say that you knew that there was going to be a bomb in the arsenal, even if you suspected that it was some kind of trap? Your biggest complaint against Faith seems to be that she did not see that she was walking into a trap, even though nobody else in the SG, all of whom helped out with the plan the whole way, saw that it might be a trap. In Buffy's case, just about every single person said that it was probably a trap, but Buffy ignored this. I consider that to be a much bigger sin, not only ignoring all the clues and your own recon but also the trusted allies who are trying to tell you that you are making a mistake. I could, however, forgive Buffy for this. There was reason to desire an attack and some action, and Caleb was a wild card. However, her trying to do the same thing again is what really damns her as a leader to me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Sophist, 09:47:04 05/08/03 Thu

Ok, I think waaaaay too much about this stuff.

Before I get to your most recent points, I have some additional ones.

First, consider the environment of Faith's attack: a tunnel. In order to see in the tunnel, she and the Potentials need to hold flashlights. This is absurd -- they were going to attack people who don't need to see in order to fight. Faith disabled her troops going in.

What she could have done instead is find those miner's helmets with the flashlights on top. Then if the Potentials wanted to maintain the spirit of the original plan, each one could tie one hand behind her back.

Second, your original post misunderstood what I was saying about the sources of intelligence. Buffy learned reliable information from Shannon that (a) Caleb was in town, and (b) he was very dangerous. What Caleb actually said -- "I have something of yours" -- was not reliable and everyone, including Buffy, knew that. It did turn out to be true, though (presuming Buffy is the one who can remove the sword from the stone).

Faith, in contrast, only got her information from a Bringer who was channeling the Overmind. It only said what its controller wanted said. Every word it spoke had to be treated as unreliable and/or a trap, yet Faith accepted it at face value and acted on it.

Third, s'kat made a great point. If Faith did not take all the Potentials with her, who was protecting the ones left behind? The Dynamic Duo of Wood and Andrew? At least Buffy left Willow there; Faith made sure to leave everyone vulnerable.

Now to some of your new points. I'm not going to get into the "Buffy favors Spike" issue. I've said way to much on this subject already and don't need to bore everyone by repeating my views.

Spike was cold?

I didn't say "cold", I said "cautious". I think that word is fair.

Did Andrew not complain about anybody?

It was pretty clear from Storyteller and even earlier that Andrew worships Buffy (well, kind of like he worships Luke Skywalker, but that's just Andrew). He also was the one who gave the speech to the Potentials about the danger of Faith.

In any case, Andrew doesn't seem very relevant since he wasn't there for the mutiny.

to say that she had no connection with Willow is to ignore everything that happened on Angel.

I don't watch Angel (though I did see that episode). As far as I'm concerned, it is a different show. What happens there is irrelevant to what happens on Buffy unless the writers expressly incorporate it into Buffy.

And can you honestly tell me that the second attack would have gone any better?

You keep referring to Buffy's proposed second attack. That's irrelevant to my point: that there is a double standard being applied when it comes to criticizing Buffy's original attack in DG, yet not criticizing the much worse plan developed by Faith in Touched.

To me, she was blowing him off, in the standard way Faith blows off guys she had a "connection" with.

The insidious thing about sleeping with the troops is that accusations of favoritism can be made no matter what you do. If Faith had let Wood go along, I could equally well have argued that she favored him by letting him do what he wanted. The General can't win; that's why you don't do it.

Note how many times people commented not only that it could be a trap, but that they had no good info about the vineyard beyond what Caleb gave them, Buffy's response remained that she did not care.

In my response to DEN below, I explain why Buffy did not walk into a "trap" in the usual meaning of that word. Faith, however, did.

I think the important point is not who did recon and who did not, but what was gained by the recon they did.

No, since Faith failed to do recon, the point is "what might she have learned if she had done it?". Her failure to do any contrasts unfavorably with Buffy.

one important point is that you fault Faith for not doing the same things that you are willing to exonerate Buffy for doing

That's deliberate. The point I'm trying to make: there is a double standard here. Everyone jumped all over Buffy after DG. They should be doing the same to Faith after Touched, but instead I hear the sounds of silence.

If a tactic proves ineffectual and wasteful, a smart general would not do it again.

This can hardly apply to holding a force in reserve. That's what a good general does in almost every case. You're really deep into special pleading for Faith if you have to suggest this.

If nothing else, it makes sense to leave a force at the entrance to the tunnel to make sure you don't get attacked from behind.

What I meant to suggest is that when conducting a raid you often need to use the best data available. When there is no way to scout a location and when you are trying to preserve some concept of the element of surprise, you often have to rely on more indirect scouting

How come this doesn't apply to Buffy in DG?

there was no problem with the plan. It succeeded. They won the battle.

I truly don't understand this. By the same logic, Buffy "won the battle" when she and the Potentials defeated the Bringers. Oops, then Caleb showed up. It's the "oops" part that's crucial. Faith didn't "win the battle", she took the bait.

Her move after the Bringers were dead was truly, stupendously stupid. She saw an adjacent passage with a stairwell. What she should have done was stand at the top of the stairs and shine the flashlights down. If necessary, one person could have gone down. Instead, she allowed the entire group to walk down the stairs (what, no one was worried that the door might close behind them?) into a confined space. The word "trap" hardly seems adequate. This is stupidity on a monstrous, nay criminal scale. Any soldier who did this would be cashiered immediately. Yet not a single critic of Buffy has come forward to denounce Faith. That's what I find truly remarkable.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Malandanza, 13:07:24 05/08/03 Thu

"The insidious thing about sleeping with the troops is that accusations of favoritism can be made no matter what you do. If Faith had let Wood go along, I could equally well have argued that she favored him by letting him do what he wanted. The General can't win; that's why you don't do it."

I've agreed with most of what you've said in this thread, but I think you undermine your own point about Buffy not sleeping with the troops when you talk about perceptions. I agree that no matter what Faith does with Wood she's subject to charges of favoritism, but the same is true for Buffy because of the perception that she has favored Spike.

I see these perceptions as having been fostered by the Scoobies -- Anya, in particular having drawn a false analogy between Buffy attacking her and helping Spike. The difference was that Anya had free will and Spike did not. Spike's case more closely resembles the Scooby/Buffy perception of Willow's rampage, and Spike has not been treated as well as Willow. The double standard cuts against Spike -- but that's largely irrelevant. The Potentials think she's showing favoritism and that's enough for them.

So charges of favoritism (wrongly) are more likely to stick to Buffy than to Faith. The only way I see Wood becoming an issue is if the Potentials become jealous of his authority -- which, since he has none, isn't likely.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Sophist, 13:18:02 05/08/03 Thu

I agree up to a point. Anyone familiar with the events of SR might doubt the favoritism charge. Indeed, at the beginning of the year we were inundated with posts berating Buffy for being too cold to Spike. Poor girl really can't win.

I agree with the rest of your post, especially that Anya has been the main proponent of the "favoritism" charge. The Potentials, of course, don't know the full B/S story, so only get what Anya misleads them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not to mention -- dream, 13:38:02 05/08/03 Thu

(though I will) that Willow (Second in Command) is sleeping with one of the troops. And Kennedy, unlike Wood or Spike, who are both hired guns in a way, is really just one of the footsoldiers.

There is a point as which the army analogy breaks down. This isn't really an army. These girls don't seem to be concerned about Willow and Kennedy's relationship. They are uncomfortable with Spike, but only Anya really seems to think he gets special treatment (Rona, one of the most outspoken Buffy critics, even points out that "This isn't about Spike."

I see that there are a million ways to pick apart Faith's plan. I'm no good at any of it - I'm of the "attack with hummus" school of bad strategic planning. But it seems to me to be beside the point. The big issue seems to me to be whether we were supposed to be critiquing Faith, how her style of leadership compared to Buffy's. We were definitely supposed to notice that she had to tell Kennedy to shut up, that she had to stop being one of the troops to be a leader. But, I believe all the business about the maps and so forth WAS supposed to give us the impression that she was doing a better job than Buffy in some respects - she was asking for input from the group, researching, and so on. She was not ignoring everyone's fears of a trap. No one feared a trap. Whether they should have is another questions, but I really think ME tried very hard to give us the impression that Faith was doing a pretty good job. In the tunnels, I don't think we were supposed to be thinking that miner's helmets were in order. I think we were supposed to start suspecting that Faith was as much in the dark as Buffy was. And then we were supposed to understand that even plans which are agreed to by all, which are reached by consensus and planning, can still go horribly, horribly wrong. Now Faith is going to have the responsibility for the death of the Potentials - the very responsibility that was crushing Buffy. I think it will bring them together. The effect on the remaining Potentials themselves is another matter. Will they become completely terrified and useless, or will some of them take on more responsibility, see themselves more as possible future Slayers than as simple recruits?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Games of Tactics and Strategy (spoilers for Touched, Home) -- fresne, 17:44:02 05/08/03 Thu

I agree with you in so many ways. I'll even take it a bit further.

You see the funny thing about this discussion is I believe (and I'm sure there are plenty who will disagree) that neither Faith nor Buffy exhibited necessarily poor tactics.

Tactics being what you do on the battlefield. Short term things. Move troops here. Hold reserves there. Have a plan and go, go, go. Of course, as the saying goes, no plan survives contact with the battlefield.

Because your enemy has tactics too. And if you're really unlucky, a strategy.

Strategy being what you do between battles. It's the long term. It's the chess twenty moves down that wins the war.

Because tactics and strategy are not the same thing and of the two, I'd rather have a strategy.

Strategy had Belisarius bivouacking light cavalry like heavy cavalry, which convinced a numerically superior Persian army to withdraw from Byzantine lands. Strategy had Sherman marching to the sea, not as an infantry lawnmower, but as fluid cavalry shadow on the landscape. Strategy had Louis the Spider King start out with a weak and occupied land and end up with well, the kind of kingdom that you'd think a guy called the Spider King would get. Blah, blah, blah long winded historical examples.

Tactics are a single episode. Strategy is the entire season. The series.

One of the points of strategy, well, indirect strategy, as opposed to say Blood is the price of victory strategy, is making your enemy do all the work. Avoid confrontation in such a manner that you expend as little energy as possible, while your enemy runs in circles. Know what one thing you need to win. What your enemy needs. Coil to attain one. Swerve to prevent the other. Where possible, pick your battlefields to your advantage. Know that wars are fought in the head long before blood is spilled.

I mean these all sound kind of, well, duh, but neither Buffy nor Faith, well she just got there, did that in either attack. While the FE seems to have been doing nothing but strategize, following Joinville's paraphrased maxim that one should create a strategy tree in which every branch leads to victory.

Buffy's in charge. The Scoobies are led into a tactical attack on the winery. They get creamed. Score one for the FE. Buffy gets the boot. Buffy's isolated and the seeds of fragmentation have leave to sprout new fruit. The new command feels the need to press tactical attack on some other spot. Boom. Also, point to FE.

What was the strategic long term gain of attacking the winery or the arsenal? Why attack anything? Both the attack on the winery and the attack on the arsenal were on the FE's territory.

Caleb has something of Buffy's, well unless you know that you need it, then let him have it.

Weapons. Why care about weapons? Unless you know the FE needs those weapons to win, let it have them. It's like destroying the LA office of Wolfram and Hart. A few weeks later, world peace averted and WH is as good as new. Better, since re-staffing would seem to support WH's long term strategic goals. Whatever those are.

No tactical plan can be brilliant enough to protect the Scoobies most valuable asset, their people. The FE would seem to have an infinite supply of minions, weapons, tools, and all the time in the world to play. It knows their weaknesses, but they don't know its.

I'd say the moment that Giles slit the Bringer's throat, Faith's plan was doomed. Where Buffy's plan failed, well, that was more gradual. Sleep deprivation. Pressure. Emotional exhaustion. Desperate tactics from the house with one bathroom.

Two episodes to go and no one knows what the FE wants. What it desires. What it needs to do to win.

Let the Hive creature babble. Wait for Spike to get back from Gilroy. Ignore Caleb's initial grisly message and try to pull him into your territory. Listen. Learn. Plan.

Consider that the most damage done was not Faith's attack, but the touching that went on the night before.

I'd throw in Buffy getting enough info to realize the why and the optimum who of the winery attack, but that strategy branch has not reached its tip yet.

Two moves to go. The Queens are in play. The branch fronds gently wave. Now all that's left is to see Daedalus fly or Icarus fall. Watch Buffy's impression of Gandhi. You know. If he was really angry. Because, let's face it, Buffy's never really been big on the strategy and that's kind of the way I like her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Comparing generalship (spoilers through Touched) -- Grant, 14:47:58 05/08/03 Thu

I just have to start off by saying, every single point you are making is completely irrelevant. You are criticizing a plan that worked perfectly. You say that the potentials were incumbered by carrying flashlights. Obviously that didn't matter, because they won the battle anyway. You say that Faith should have done recon or sent in a scouting party. Obviously that didn't matter, because they won the battle anyway. You say that Faith should have left behind reserves. Obviously that didn't matter, because they won the battle anyway. Your entire line of criticism into Faith's generalship is based on things that could not have made any difference in the end result.

A similar circumstance would be me saying that Bobby Lee was an incompetent General for splitting his army during the Battle of Chancellorsville. Splitting your force is generally considered a bad tactical maneuver, particularly when you are outnumbered, as Lee was. In fact, I'm fairly confidant that if Lee were against Grant or Sherman or even Meade in that battle and pulled the force splitting maneuver, he would have been slaughtered. But anybody with half a brain who knew what happened to the battle would respond, Lee won the battle. He was not against Grant or Sherman or Meade. He was against Hooker, who sucked. And therefore it is stupid for blaming Lee for doing something that worked perfectly.

The same thing is true about Faith in this case. She won the battle. The only problem came from the bomb, after the battle. Yet I fail to see how any of your criticisms would have let them see the bomb. A scouting party or recon trip would not have seen it, because it would have not been able to get through the large group of bringers defending the arsenal. Would wearing flashlights on their heads have given them the magical ability to detect bombs? Or maybe a reserve line would have been the key. After all, standing far away from the battle, they could have done... well, they would have... um, they certainly would have looked very pretty. And then Faith could have said, "Damn, I'm a good General. I wasted half my troops standing out of the battle for no good reason, even though I clearly saw that that tactic was a waste of manpower and time just a few days before."

The other major fact is that Buffy's attack FAILED. It is not completely her fault, as she did not know what she was getting into with Caleb. However, it is quite worth noting that pretty much every single other person in the group told her that they thought the attack was not a good idea, that more time should be sent to research what they were getting into. Buffy ignored them, and the result was the loss of several lives. That is bad generalship. However, Generals are allowed to make mistakes. They are just expected to learn from them. Buffy failed in this too by deciding to do the same exact thing all over again.

Second, your original post misunderstood what I was saying about the sources of intelligence. Buffy learned reliable information from Shannon that (a) Caleb was in town, and (b) he was very dangerous. What Caleb actually said -- "I have something of yours" -- was not reliable and everyone, including Buffy, knew that. It did turn out to be true, though (presuming Buffy is the one who can remove the sword from the stone).

Sure, but that reliable information was exactly what Caleb wanted her to know. He basically handed that information to her. That should have told her that she needed to do more research and be careful. But she refused any attempt to figure things out ahead of time. Sure, she did light external recon, but she completely ignored the need for research. Buffy did not know that what Caleb said was unreliable either. Take these pieces of dialogue from the shooting script:

BUFFY
He's taunting us. Calling us out.
Says he has something of mine. Could
be another girl. Could be something
else. Don't know. Don't care.
(pause)
I'm tired of talking. I'm tired of
training. He's got something of
mine? Fine. I'm getting it back.

*****

GILES
But are you certain this is the best
course of action? You don't even
know what this man has of yours, if
he in fact has anything.

BUFFY
It could be a girl. A potential
trying to get to us.

GILES
It could be a stapler.

BUFFY
I'm going in anyway.

Buffy clearly here does not care if the intel is right or wrong. She just wants to go in anyway. She rejects any attempt to slow down and do research and consider the situation, all the things that made the SG so successful in the past. Faith, on the other hand, did all of these things. The whole group worked and planned and researched for her attack. That is why it was successful. None of them foresaw that the First would plant a bomb in the arsenal, but I would think it would be quite amazing for someone to exercise that much foresight.

Faith, in contrast, only got her information from a Bringer who was channeling the Overmind. It only said what its controller wanted said. Every word it spoke had to be treated as unreliable and/or a trap, yet Faith accepted it at face value and acted on it.

Everything the bringer said was just as valid as everything Caleb said. He basically told them that the bringers all worked for the first, and that they were building an arsenal under ground at the edge of town. All true. But Faith did not just say, "Let's go wandering around under ground at the edge of town and hope we find something." She did research. She had Xander look up the tunnel plans to find the place and let them know the layout. That's why she knew where to go even when the bringer did not give a location. Also significant is that the info was extracted from the bringer via a spell. It was not just given to them, like when Caleb dropped Shannon in front of Faith and Willow.

Third, s'kat made a great point. If Faith did not take all the Potentials with her, who was protecting the ones left behind? The Dynamic Duo of Wood and Andrew? At least Buffy left Willow there; Faith made sure to leave everyone vulnerable.

My God, you are right. What if an army of dinosaurs came by? Or Godzilla? Those potentials left behind would have been goners. The point is that none of this happen. You can't blame Faith for not wasting her limited resources protecting people who obviously did not need protecting, as they were not attacked. It might have been a prudent move, but it only would be a necessary one if they had been attacked. In which case, I would say, "You are right. Faith made a mistake in not protecting the potentials." However, when she decides that it is unlikely that those potentials will be attacked and thus leaves them unprotected, and then those potentials are not attacked, I fail to see that as a failure of leadership.

I don't watch Angel (though I did see that episode). As far as I'm concerned, it is a different show. What happens there is irrelevant to what happens on Buffy unless the writers expressly incorporate it into Buffy.

You should, it is a very good show. Anyway, the point is that these shows are connected. A lot of character development of Faith occurred on Angel. In fact, Buffy and Faith had a major confrontation on Angel that was never expressly incorporated into BtVS. But it would be a major mistake, IMHO, to try and understand Buffy and Faith's current relationship within knowing about the Angel episode Sanctuary, as obviously the writers know about that episode and are brining it in to their characterizations. So, when a character undergoes some major events on Angel, and another character from BtVS happens to see that and also proveeds to act very differently towards that character than she has in the past, I tend to take that into account.

You keep referring to Buffy's proposed second attack. That's irrelevant to my point: that there is a double standard being applied when it comes to criticizing Buffy's original attack in DG, yet not criticizing the much worse plan developed by Faith in Touched.

I'm definitely not going to yield you the much worse, but the reason I keep bringing up the second attack is that it solidified Buffy's bad leadership for me. She obviously made some big mistakes in planning the first attack. Other people pointed out these mistakes, and she ignored them. And she paid for it. However, that is allowed. Her response should have been to try and fix those mistakes and improve her leadership in the future. Instead, she tried to do the exact same thing over again. As Faith learned in Murder rehand: "You know what the definition of insanity is, baby? Performing the same task over and over and expecting different results."

You are right that Faith can be criticized in not foreseeing the possibility that the arsenal had a bomb/booby trap thing in it. All of your other tactical criticisms seem relatively trivial to me, because I fail to see what impact they would have had on the battle one way or the other. I don't see how any of them could have let her foresee the bomb. However, at the same time none of the other members of the SG or the other potentials, all of whom worked together to form the plan, foresaw the possibility of a bomb either. I don't think that even people who thought that it was a trap envisioned that it was that kind of trap. So I am willing to cut Faith a little slack on that, which I wouldn't have done if say Xander had said, "What if the first is just leaving a bomb there to blow us up" and Faith had ignored him. I am also willing to cut Buffy a little slack in not knowing that Caleb was so strong. In her case she is on thinner ice, since others foresaw this and warned her that she did not know what she was getting into and she ignored them. I generally try to avoid faulting people too much for a failure of imagination, unless other people point that failure out to them and they ignore them. If, in the future, Faith makes the same mistake again, I will readily admit that you have a point, she is exercising bad leadership. However, I do not feel that this will be the case, mostly because with only two episodes left she does not really have time to make the same mistake again.

I guess the point I was trying to make, if it wasn't clear, was that Faith was in the same boat as everyone else with the failure of imagination. No one foresaw the bomb. Buffy was pretty alone in her failure of imagination, and while I can almost forgive her that mistake, I can't forgive trying to make it again.

The insidious thing about sleeping with the troops is that accusations of favoritism can be made no matter what you do. If Faith had let Wood go along, I could equally well have argued that she favored him by letting him do what he wanted. The General can't win; that's why you don't do it.

Okay, true. But I'm going to have to submit another writ of habeas corpus. Where's the damage here? Show me how this situation caused some noticeable damage, or how Faith not sleeping with Wood would have allowed her to avoid the bomb, and I will admit to the point. Otherwise I fail to see its relevance except as a general question of Faith's character and maturity in a manner that did not effect her leadership in this case.

Thinking more about what makes a "trap", I'm not sure that Buffy walked into a trap in the usual meaning of that word. Caleb taunted Buffy, but had no need to surround her or surprise her, which is what we usually think of when we describe something as a "trap". He was just stronger. If I call you out and then prove I'm stronger, that's not a "trap", that's just a victory.

Now that's just being silly. Caleb laid a trap by convincing Buffy to bring a bunch of potentials into the vineyard, so he could kill them and demoralize the ones that got away. That is clearly a trap. Faith also most likely walked into a trap by bringing potentials to a bomb. I don't dispute that. The problem is in whether they should have been able to foresee the trap. I don't see how it would have been possible for Faith to foresee the bomb with the information she had available. That is why nobody else foresaw the bomb as well, even though this was a group of very experience evil-fighters who outthought master strategists like the Master, Angelus, the Mayor, and Adam. Most of your criticisms of Faith go to things that also were separate from the bomb, like her strategy for the attack, which clearly was sufficient since she carried the field. I personally am not criticizing Faith, because I cannot see what could have been done differently in her situation to attain a better result. The only other strategy she might have been able to employ given the facts at hand would have been to do nothing, which probably would have lead to its own faults. But except for a major plot contrivance tell us if there are any bombs or other traps in the arsenal spell, I don't see a single strategy that could have been used to successfully avoid the bomb.

A similar situation happened under Buffy's command in the season three episode Choices. In that, the entire SG came together, thought up a good solid plan using the information they had available and research, and attacked City Hall to get the Box of Gavrok. This plan was very successful, however, Willow was captured during the attack, thus negating the whole thing. Now, in hindsight Buffy can be criticized for not foreseeing that Willow could be captured around city hall by Faith, and therefore she should have someone to guard her or help her escape. However, I feel that such criticism is foolish, because there was very little reason to foresee the eventuality of Willow's capture. As the fictional detective Nero Wolfe once stated, "It is vainglorious to reproach yourself for a lack of omniscience. The same is true of omnipotence." Now, if someone had told Buffy in the planning stage that Willow might have been kidnapped and she had ignored that person, then I would hold her accountable. I also might if I had been able to foresee that the capture might happen, and my foreknowledge was based merely on the evidence available to the characters. Otherwise, I do not demand omniscience of my characters.

No, since Faith failed to do recon, the point is "what might she have learned if she had done it?". Her failure to do any contrasts unfavorably with Buffy.

The problem with this point is that you fail to present any convincing argument that anything Faith learned via recon could have prevented her from getting caught with the bomb. I just don't see how this is possible. The most she could have learned, IMHO, is that there are a bunch of bringers down there, which she knew, and the layout of the area, which she also knew. The bomb and other weapons were deep within the arsenal at a point she could not have reached without a fight. So please explain how recon could have shown her anything worthwhile that would have changed the results of the battle, because I just don't see it. Obviously neither did Faith or anybody else, which is why they did not feel that recon was necessary.

Also, the entire mission can be seen as force recon. They were trying to find the weapon that the First and Caleb had, and thus wanted to look through the arsenal for it. However, they knew from the bringer that the arsenal was crawling with bringers, so Faith decided rather than sending a small and ineffectual recon party that would either not find anything or be easily defeated/captured, they should bring a large and strong group to do the recon.

I would like you to explain to me, however, why Buffy's use of recon was so great when the intel that the recon provided, namely that it was a trap, was completely ignored by her.

That's deliberate. The point I'm trying to make: there is a double standard here. Everyone jumped all over Buffy after DG. They should be doing the same to Faith after Touched, but instead I hear the sounds of silence.

But the problem is that the situations were different. Nobody questioned Faith's decisions in this battle. They all saw the entire plan as logical, and it was, because it accomplished its objective of seizing the arsenal. This turned out to be a bad objective, but it is difficult to fault Faith for this lack of foresight without at the same time faulting every single other member of the SG, none of whom pointed out that there could be a bomb in the arsenal even though they were all privy to just as much knowledge as Faith. In fact, they all knew more since they had a better idea of how the First operated, knowing that it had used things like bombs in the past.

In Buffy's case, on the other hand, everyone pointed out that she was making a mistake. And she ignored everyone. She was given clear and compelling evidence that she was exercising a failure of imagination and walking into a trap, and she ignored it. Then she tried to do it again. That is why I am much more critical of her than I am of Faith.

This can hardly apply to holding a force in reserve. That's what a good general does in almost every case. You're really deep into special pleading for Faith if you have to suggest this.

"IN ALMOST EVERY CASE"!!!! As you say yourself, a good general does not always leave a reserve. There are actually many cases when leaving a reserve is useless and wasteful. Any good general knows that. I really don't see how I am "deep into special pleading for Faith" to suggest that it is sometimes not necessary to leave a reserve, when you yourself just admitted it. I see of no tactical advantage under the circumstances of Faith's attack in which leaving a reserve would have been necessary or helpful. The enemy could not flank them, because they were in a tunnel. They had a solid line of escape the entire time from the tunnel, and they knew that the enemy was not behind them because that was the direction they came from and there were no enemies there. In fact, the best strategy for fighting in such circumstances is to keep your force largely together. You simply don't leave reserves in CQB operations. If Faith had split her force and left a reserve, she may not have been able to successfully defeat the large group of bringers that were in the arsenal area. That is a clear disadvantage to having a reserve in this case. Can you now suggest a way in which having a reserve would have changed the battle? I can't see any.

As I pointed out above, a good general does not split his force in almost every case. Yet I do not have to be deep into special pleading for Robert E. Lee to suggest that ignoring conventionally military wisdom worked well for him in this case. A good general also does not cut himself off from his supply lines. Yet I do not have to be deep into special pleading for U.S. Grant to suggest that this tactic worked well for him at Fort Donelson and Vicksburg.

How come this doesn't apply to Buffy in DG?

Um, it does. Did I ever say it didn't? However, Buffy ignored the info available to her, most of which said that she should not attack. There was little solid evidence suggesting that Faith was walking into a trap. But let's go to the text to see what Buffy was ignoring:

XANDER
Unknown man breezes into town, says
he has something of yours... Buffy,
this thing's got "trap" written all
over it.

BUFFY
He won't be expecting a full attack.
Not this soon. That's why we have to
move.

GILES
We know nothing about this man. We
cannot go into battle without
preparation. We need time.

BUFFY
Giles. We don't have time. And
you're not going into battle. I need
you to stay behind with the others.
(beat)
Help the girls who still need a
teacher.
*****

BUFFY
This guy seems like he wants to be
found.

FAITH
Lends weight to that whole "it's a
trap" theory.

BUFFY
I'm through waiting around for people
to attack us.

It seems pretty clear that Buffy ignored a bunch of clues that she was making a mistake, clues that everyone else seemed to see.

I truly don't understand this. By the same logic, Buffy "won the battle" when she and the Potentials defeated the Bringers. Oops, then Caleb showed up. It's the "oops" part that's crucial. Faith didn't "win the battle", she took the bait.

I think your problem lies in the difference between tactics and strategy. Tactics is defined as maneuvers used to achieve an end or objective. Strategy is the determination of what the best ends are. In this case, Faith can be said to have won a tactical victory. She defeated the bringers and secured her objective, the arsenal. However, strategically her plan was a failure because the objective was a bad thing rather than a good thing to have.

Oops Caleb showed up? Buffy knew he was there the whole time. That is why her battle was a tactical failure. She failed to take Caleb properly into account, even though others warned her that she knew nothing about him or his capabilities, and thus was routed when she engaged him. Strategically it is more of a toss up. Her objective, to get whatever was at the vineyard, was actually in the long run a good objective, or at least it appears to be from what we know at this point. However, Buffy did not know this. She did not know what Caleb had nor did she particularly care. Her actual objective seemed to be more to engage the forces of the First in battle and win some kind of victory. And in this case she also failed strategically, since she did not have a solid, attainable goal.

Buffy's third plan, however, appears to have been successful both tactically and strategically. She came up with the appropriate tactics to defeat Caleb: evasion (even though she lost points in my book for that first cheesy Matrix style move). Strategically she also seems to have achieved a good objective that will help in the long run by gaining possession of the scythe. It is only unfortunate that she did not learn her lessons and exercise this good leadership earlier.

Her move after the Bringers were dead was truly, stupendously stupid. She saw an adjacent passage with a stairwell. What she should have done was stand at the top of the stairs and shine the flashlights down. If necessary, one person could have gone down. Instead, she allowed the entire group to walk down the stairs (what, no one was worried that the door might close behind them?) into a confined space. The word "trap" hardly seems adequate. This is stupidity on a monstrous, nay criminal scale. Any soldier who did this would be cashiered immediately. Yet not a single critic of Buffy has come forward to denounce Faith. That's what I find truly remarkable.

Actually, current military theory says that in CQB combat settings, you never, ever enter a room alone. You always clear a room with at least two people, because it is too easy for a single person to be killed entering a room with no one else from the unit knowing what happened. I think you are getting pretty deep into special pleading against Faith to suggest that this is "stupidity on a monstrous, nay criminal scale." You might have a case that Faith was negligent, but not monstrous or criminal. In fact, to suggest that it was monstrous or criminal is to suggest that Faith did it on purpose to put the potentials in danger, which I don't think that you are suggesting. Keeping the group together is certainly consistent with most CQB tactics, which say you pretty much always want the entire team together as you move throughout the facility. Generally, doors being locked behind you are not major concerns for a unit trying to clear a building. The main reason you keep your team together is because your chances of survival are a lot better if you have multiple people to cover all the angles. Under these circumstances, I can certainly see how Faith would have felt justified to keep the team together, in case another group of bringers was waiting down there.

She would also have largely been justified in bringing the group down if she thought it was just a harmless arsenal, which she did. She would not have been justified in bringing the group down if she thought there was a bomb down there, but, as I stated she had no way of knowing this. In fact, her procedure was actually pretty good just in case there was a bomb there. Remember, the actual bomb was across a bridge over some sort of gap. The rest of the group remained behind while Faith, the person best equipped to both detect and take the brunt of any trap, crossed the bridge and checked what was in the chest alone. Not a bad precaution, which would seem to make her somewhat less than monstrously stupid.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think we've reached the point (spoilers through Touched) -- Sophist, 16:45:47 05/08/03 Thu

where we're talking past each other. I have just a few comments and then I'll let the record stand.

1. You insist on judging the cases by hindsight. I'm judging them on foresight. Ex ante, there is no reason to prefer Faith's plan to Buffy's and every reason to criticize Faith's as substantially worse.

2. You keep mentioning Buffy's plan to return in EP. This is irrelevant to my point. My point is that Buffy was heavily criticized for her plan in DG -- not the result, the plan -- and that Faith, whose plan in Touched was far worse, hasn't received any such criticism. I think this results from confusing hindsight with foresight.

3. You should, it is a very good show

Wish I could agree.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think we've reached the point (spoilers through Touched) -- Grant, 22:43:21 05/08/03 Thu

we're talking past each other

I guess so. I was having fun though.

You insist on judging the cases by hindsight. I'm judging them on foresight. Ex ante, there is no reason to prefer Faith's plan to Buffy's and every reason to criticize Faith's as substantially worse.

I'm judging the cases by both. By hindsight, Faith's plan worked. Therefore all the criticisms of it (recon, reserves, etc.) seem to me to be trivial. I don't see how any of them could have changed anything. By foresight, I saw entirely different processes go into the planning of both attacks. In Buffy's plan, I saw Buffy take some info given to her by a mysterious new enemy, do light recon, and then charge straight into battle with no research despite the objections of every single other person involved in the plan. And then she wanted to do it again. With Faith, I saw a planning process that involved everyone, carefull planning to go out and get intel (kidnapping the bringer than using the spell on him), research to interpret the results of the intel and get a good plan of action, and a process that nobody had any objections to. That leads me to believe that Faith did a better job as a leader than Buffy in this case.

This is irrelevant to my point. My point is that Buffy was heavily criticized for her plan in DG -- not the result, the plan -- and that Faith, whose plan in Touched was far worse, hasn't received any such criticism. I think this results from confusing hindsight with foresight.

She deserved that criticism, which for me comes from the fact that it is being very generous to say that Buffy had a plan. She did no research. None. Even when everyone told her, "Hey, we should do some research." She did minor recon, which seemed to tell her that she should rethink her plan, but ignored the results of that recon. Her battle plan consisted of charging straight into a situation she did not understand, with the minor backup of a reserve wave meant to come in at a completely ambiguous moment. And, worst of all, everybody involved in the plan told her all of this, and she ignored them. So obviously there was a good reason to dislike her plan even prior to the result, because everyone involved in it did. The second plan comes in for me because it shows a clear trend. I can cut Buffy slack for making the first mistake, but trying to do it again is a little damning in my book.

Meanwhile, Faith received no criticism for her plan ahead of time. The mixing of hindsight and foresight comes in in the interpretation of why Faith didn't do certain things. You seem to think that Faith not leaving a reserve means that she was a bad general, whether or not the plan was successful or not. I think it means that she considered the utility of leaving a reserve and decided that it was not necessary in this case, and then was proven right by the result of the battle. That is why I don't see your criticisms of Faith, because I feel that they are things she considered and came to a conclusion that they were not needed, not things she overlooked.

To me, however, the rub is the criticism both characters recieved ahead of time for their plans by the people who were actually involved in the situation and seeing all the information available from the same angle as them. Buffy had a lot, which she ignored, Faith had none. This difference is the main reason I cannot accept the idea that there is a double standard. Even ignoring the results of each plan, this is one major difference in the planning process. And you have yet to explain to me how Buffy's failure to head the advice of her closest friends and advisors is on the same level of Faith actually listening to these people and involving them in coming up with a well-thought out plan.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I left out one point (spoilers through Touched) -- Sophist, 20:06:03 05/07/03 Wed

Well, except for Spike. But we all know that that relationship did not lead to any favoritism.

Buffy did not sleep with Spike while she was being General (and no, she was not General in S6). Faith slept with Wood within 24 hours.

The favoritism argument is too big to cover here. My views are set out at length in the archives. Buffy did not give Spike special treatment. At all.

Faith, in contrast, protected Wood. She left him safe at home instead of walking him into the trap.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I left out one point (spoilers through Touched) -- DEN, 20:23:06 05/07/03 Wed

Sophist, was the bomb in fact set to catch a raiding party, or was it part of a general defensive system, activated only when the container was opened? That makes quite a difference in evaluating Faith's attac--and in determining just how prescient FE is.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> how about both?(spoilers through Touched) -- s'kat, 20:49:31 05/07/03 Wed

Not Sophist. But I just re-watched this baby and this bomb
was probably both. A defense and a trap.

How is that possible?

Okay, put yourself in the FE's place. Say you've set up an arsenal of weapons and you have this really special weapon you are hiding in another secret place. You're bright enough not to put your prize weapon in the same place as your arsenal - if someone finds the arsenal - you've lost all of them - if someone finds the prize, you've lost the arsenal. This special weapon belongs to your enemy and they are looking for it. You don't really want them to find it, but at the same time you don't want them to use your arsenal. You need to protect both, but can't put your top gun at both places at the same time. And it's not just from your main enemies you have to protect the arsenal from, you also have to protect it from thieves (demons, vampires, etc.) So you put in a defensive system.

Now, you also want to destroy your enemy in. And you know your enemy wants to find this secret power source.

The FE seems to have a thing about killing everyone but Buffy for some reason. It also has had Caleb planting all sorts of hints in everyone's heads about this power source. Blatantly telling Buffy he has something of hers. Repeating this in the school. And not killing her, when he had the chance.

So if you are the FE with two weapons - one that apparently can only be wielded by Buffy and an arsenal somewhere else and on top of this it's been your goal in life to kill everyone in the slayer line but Buffy - what would be your best plan?

If I were the FE I'd direct the potentials to my arsenal and the bomb, which I know will go off the moment they open the lid. Plant a few disposable bringers to make it look legit. Then after the trap is sprung? Unleash my army. Bye Bye Faith, bye bye Potentials. Hello Buffy.

So I think it's both a defensive system and a bomb.

And uhm...shouldn't Faith or at the very least Giles have realized the possibility of this? After all they walked into a trap the last time. It's not like there wasn't precedence or anything.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: how about both?(spoilers through Touched) -- DEN, 22:17:12 05/07/03 Wed

'kat, your reasonong makes excellent sense. One exculpatory point for Faith and Co. might be that pre-Caleb, Evil in Sunnydale has never really gone high-tech; thus there was no precedent to fear a bomb. (Also, everyone is high on their victory, and correspondingly less cautious--an attitude that has cost lives in every war ever fought, including Iraq.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: how about both?(spoilers through Touched) -- Plin, 01:24:45 05/08/03 Thu

Giles, though, has less of an excuse, considering that he's well aware of what happened to the Watchers Council. He knows that bombs are part of the First's arsenal.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> How about The Initiative(spoilers through Touched) -- s'kat, 08:38:08 05/08/03 Thu

One exculpatory point for Faith and Co. might be that pre-Caleb, Evil in Sunnydale has never really gone high-tech; thus there was no precedent to fear a bomb.

Actually it has. Remember Adam and The Initiative?
That was even more hi-tech than Caleb has been. Giles should know better - he knows Caleb blew up the Council.
Also he should remember what the Initiative did.

Also Xander? Hello. Mr. Military Guy? He's seen the hi-tech capabilities of the Initiative as well.

You could argue that Caleb doesn't seem hi-tech or organized...no wait, you can't really if you keep in mind that a) he blew up the Council, b)he's organized his minions all over the world - global scale not just Sunnydale to kill potentials. Giles has been trying to get ahead of him and not always succeeding. c) FE's been raising ubervamps. Sounds like they should know by now how organized this evil is.

No, sorry, going into that arsenal the way they did was a far worse plan than Buffy's attack on the vineyard. For so many reasons. Not that it matters - since Faith is going to pay a much higher price for her plan than Buffy did.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, but the Initiative were *so* incompetent. -- Doug, 10:28:58 05/08/03 Thu

Plus they used all really high-tech stuff. You can easily get access to ingredients to make explosives, and for a lot less money than getting all the medieval weaponry the characters usually use. The Initiative were a prime example of alot of technical knowhow with no actual cunning, and as a result were unable to use the power their technology gave them in any meaningful way. Caleb could load his pickup truck with fertilizer-based explosive and have a bringer drive it into the Summer's home, so could any vampire over the show's history who had an internet connection. Conversely the scoobies could have sealed the doors of the winery, torched the place, and then set up a betting pool as to whether or not Caleb would die of smoke inhalation or burn to death. Or they could have stopped Angelus or Glory by simply running over him/her repeatedly with a car back in previous seasons. Or some nameless vampire with a pistol couldhave killed all the human scoobies and Buffy.

Of course if they actually did any of this the story would turn into Hunter: the Reckoning. All of the characters, Buffy more than any other, depend on the shows paradigm either not including such tactics or having villains who futz around for the entire season instead of actually just killing the heroine. Otherwise we wouldn't have a show with quippy fight scenes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: how about both?(spoilers through Touched) -- Malandanza, 10:40:35 05/08/03 Thu

"But I just re-watched this baby and this bomb was probably both. A defense and a trap."

The timer has me thinking it was a trap. If it had been a purely defensive mechanism, why not just set it to explode when opened? My feeling is that the Bringers were there to control the pace of the Faith's advance -- slow them down if necessary, hurry them along if required, but make sure the army is in place for the bomb right about the time the timer runs out.

Sophist mentioned that he believed the arsenal was a trap from the beginning -- I didn't have the same impression. With the switches between Buffy and Faith at the vineyard and arsenal, I knew one of them was in trouble, but it had looked as though it would be Buffy to me since I think ME was taking pains to make Faith look like a competent leader while they had been disparaging Buffy's leadership style for quite some time. It makes sense to me that the arsenal was the trap:

1. If Giles is evil, his encouragement helped lead Faith into the trap. Even if he isn't evil, his judgment has been remarkably bad of late.
2. If the Bringers are part of a "hive mind" the Bringer's info was suspect.
3. Even if the Bringer was magically compelled to tell the truth, the First ought to have known what the Bringer said to the Scoobies and prepared a trap accordingly.
4. The Scoobies' plan didn't differ materially from the one they rejected from Buffy -- which was, by all accounts, a bad plan. Serves the Scoobies right that a plan they had sanctimoniously rejected when Buffy was in charge failed when they were in charge. (ME loves irony, poetic justice, and punishing hubris)

In any event, I don't see the bomb as necessary for a defensive measure -- to protect what? A stockpile of Bringer weapons? Buffy has an extensive collection of cutlery of her own, augmented by Giles' and Wood's collection as well as all those shiny weapons she's picked up during the course of her slaying days (plus a stash of Bringer weapons from the minions they've slain). She doesn't need anything the First has in that arsenal. Blowing it up would only serve to deprive the First of its own weapons (I can't imagine Faith and the potentials bringing armloads of weapons home with them or taking the time to destroy all the weapons).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I must be channeling S'kat these days (spoilers for Touched) -- Sophist, 08:56:47 05/08/03 Thu

I essentially agree with her. I was thinking about this last night and came on line this morning to post it, only to find S'kat is quicker on the draw. Well, we already knew that.

I think it makes the most sense to see this as a trap set all along, though whether originally set for Faith or Buffy is hard to know yet.

Thinking more about what makes a "trap", I'm not sure that Buffy walked into a trap in the usual meaning of that word. Caleb taunted Buffy, but had no need to surround her or surprise her, which is what we usually think of when we describe something as a "trap". He was just stronger. If I call you out and then prove I'm stronger, that's not a "trap", that's just a victory.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Just one thing... -- Philistine, 20:33:35 05/08/03 Thu

Remember this exchange from "Dirty Girls"?

Buffy: Heard you had something of mine.

Caleb: (grinning, spreads his arms wide to encompass the basement full of Scoobs and Potentials) I do now!

Yeah, I think it was a trap.

Though actually, I think the trap was more subtle than Caleb's line indicates. In "Showtime," Buffy rallied the Potentials by demonstrating that she could take on Ubie and win. The FE, preferring them paralyzed by doubt and fear, drew Buffy & Co out to the vineyard to demonstrate its new weapon - Caleb. The object wasn't to destroy the Potentials, but to demoralize them; not to beat Buffy down, but to show everyone that she could be beaten down.

(Just don't ask me why the FE would rather have the Potentials disheartened than deceased, because I don't have the foggiest - but that's the way it looks to me. Everything the FE has done this season, in fact, seems to have been more about inflicting psychological than physical harm. The occasional deaths that erode group morale; the "unbeatable" Turok Han that stopped just short of killing Buffy; even the destruction of the WC is mostly about showing the Sunnydale crew that this time there's no help to be had.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hey are you implying.... -- dream, 07:19:57 05/09/03 Fri

***the "unbeatable" Turok Han that stopped just short of killing Buffy***

That the plan of "I'm going to kick his ass HARDER this time, and with an audience!" didn't succeed because the plan was brilliant, but because the First didn't want Buffy killed? That makes so much more sense. Because, well, we know that the First doesn't want Buffy killed. Horribly beaten, bruised and demoralized, yes. Also, there might be a certain amount of long-term planning in letting Buffy win early on. After all, the FE already had Caleb in reserve at that point. What's going to demoralize the Potentials more than setting Buffy up as unstoppable, and THEN bringing in the heavy gun?

Even if that's not what you meant, thanks! I might even come to like Showtime if that's what it turns out was going on. (Why am I assuming we're going to get an epic-length "Evil Villian Explains Her Methods" speech? I don't know which is worse - having to sit through one of those, or not knowing what this seemingly insane plan is, anyway.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think Philistine is right (Spoilers for BoTN, Showtime, EP) -- Sophist, 09:16:21 05/09/03 Fri

I think there are other conclusions to draw, however.

That the plan of "I'm going to kick his ass HARDER this time, and with an audience!" didn't succeed because the plan was brilliant, but because the First didn't want Buffy killed?

I think it's true that the T-H was under orders not to kill Buffy. I also believe, however, that Buffy knew this. Here's her summary of Giles' description of the FE's plan in BoTN (quote from Psyche):

BUFFY
The First - that's what it wants.

GILES
Yes. To erase all the Slayers-in-
training and their Watchers, along
with their methods...

BUFFY
And then Faith. Then me.

IOW, Buffy knew that she was last in line. She made her plan to fight the T-H with this knowledge in mind. It gave her a real advantage, and makes her strategy pretty sensible.

We should probably see Showtime as the FE's attempt to do what it succeeded in doing in EP. It tried once, failed, and came back with a stronger weapon for the same purpose.

We still don't know exactly what that purpose is. In EP, Caleb says (paraphrasing) "she's (Buffy's) right where you want her, ready to lead the Potentials here. And I'll kill them all." If this is the plan, it failed to work as expected because the Potentials mutinied. It's possible that Faith fell into the trap intended for Buffy; it's possible the plan is something else entirely. We just don't know yet.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Makes sense. Thanks! -- dream, 09:56:42 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Shocked and Awed -- Philistine, 17:29:07 05/09/03 Fri

Me? Right? How could such a thing happen?

Actually, I was thinking of BotN there - if Giles and Xander found Buffy so easily, I have real problems with the idea that the UberVamp couldn't have done the same. I hadn't thought ahead to the implications for "Showtime," but I'm glad you did because there's something else in that episode that I think ties in to both DG and "Home."

Look at the major successes of the SG since CwDP: "Showtime," in which the plan was communicated by telepathy among Buffy, Willow, and Xander, and not at all to anyone else; and Buffy's expedition in "Home," in which (so far as we know) Buffy didn't tell anyone where she was going or what she was doing. (They did manage to close the Seal in the school basement; on the other hand, with Caleb on the way perhaps the First didn't consider the Seal to be as high a priority - perhaps it figured the Seal would be easy enough to reopen once Caleb hit town.) In neither case was the successful plan spoken aloud or written down. If the First can hear every word out of the Scoobs' mouths, as it seems, then any plan that gets spoken aloud is compromised before it begins; I think this tends to exculpate both Slayers for their disastrous outings.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: By 'Home' I of course meant 'Touched' -- Philistine, in need of rest, 17:35:46 05/09/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Agree, a few more (spoilers through Touched) -- s'kat, 14:27:52 05/07/03 Wed

1. Buffy got her information from a reliable source (the Potential who was stabbed). Faith got information from a minion of the enemy who was certainly capable of lying and possibly under mind control all along.

2. Buffy did recon first. Faith did none.

3. Faith may only have expected Bringers, but she had no way to know that Caleb wouldn't be at the "arsenal". Buffy had no way of knowing about Caleb's power, but Faith did.

4. Buffy did not take all the Potentials with her. Faith seemingly did (it was not clear).

5. Buffy left a force in reserve. Faith did not.

6. Faith failed to send a scouting party down a dark tunnel, instead taking the entire group with her.

(end of Sophist's -- start of mine.)

7. Buffy left clear instructions with the SG and took two of them with her - Xander and Spike.

8. Buffy up until LMPTM used Wood as a resource not just sitting by the phone.

9. Buffy told Willow to protect the people at the house and use her magic. Faith tells Will to help Giles and Dawn and Xander retcon on Buffy. Uhm do we need four people to retcon on Buffy??

10. Buffy sent Anya to get information on the ubervamps and research. Not sure what Faith wants Anya to do.

11. Not sure if this in the above..but Buffy left word of where they were going and for a rescue squad to come in and get them out. She probably did the same thing when she went to the vineyard - leaving a note with Spike letting someone know where she went in case she didn't come back. Faith may have left word, but I didn't get the feeling there was a rescue squad. Also no one thought to tell Buffy or include her in any way. Buffy included Faith.

[> [> [> [> [> 'Buffy did not have sex with any of the troops.' (spoilers through Touched) -- WickedBuffy (respectfully disagreeing), 16:35:57 05/07/03 Wed

Isn't Spike on the team?

"At least until EP, Buffy never said anything as direct or harsh as Faith's "Shut up and listen, I'm the boss."

Buffy had been sending that message for several weeks, over a period of time - thus the dubbing her as General.

1. Buffy got her information from a reliable source (the Potential who was stabbed). Faith got information from a minion of the enemy who was certainly capable of lying and possibly under mind control all along.

How was a stranger, nearly dead with a gaping gut wound, even though a SIT, more reliable than a Bringer captured and then bespelled to speak? I t seems it could be a tossup.

2. Buffy did recon first. Faith did none.

I didn't see Buffy researching the Winery other than seeing Bringers going into it. I did see that the Scoobies researched the area and even studied maps.

3. Faith may only have expected Bringers, but she had no way to know that Caleb wouldn't be at the "arsenal". Buffy had no way of knowing about Caleb's power, but Faith did.

I didn't understand that one ::color me blonde::

4. Buffy did not take all the Potentials with her. Faith seemingly did (it was not clear).

I thought she split them up?

5. Buffy left a force in reserve. Faith did not.

See above plus Faith left Wood (waiting by the phone LOL), Andrew, Giles and I can't remember who else.

6. Faith failed to send a scouting party down a dark tunnel, instead taking the entire group with her.

Buffy just marched into the Winery and down the steps.

But comparing Buffy and Faiths "connections" seems like comparing apples and mangoes. And Mango, in the short time she was there, was actually trying to connect. Simple things like standing in the kitchen withthem and knowing their names.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not ignoring you. I think I responded to all your points elsewhere. Feel free to pile on. -- Sophist, 13:08:46 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> oh -- WickedBuffy, 14:52:50 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Exactly (spoilers 7.20) -- Vickie, 13:23:02 05/07/03 Wed

It may be that Faith's party drew off some Bringers to the arsenal location, allowing Buffy to deal with only Caleb. Certainly, the fact that potentials were not at the winery getting their a**es kicked and needing help freed Buffy to fight Caleb the way she did.

I can't agree with Soph below. Certainly, Faith walked into another trap. But I thought the point was that Buffy shouldn't be completely villified for having done so, not that Faith was a dummy too. She didn't take all the potentials, just a hand-picked group (those of you coming with me know who you are--rough paraphrase). I thought the younger slayer did just fine, except maybe for kicking open the bomb box.

[> [> That bugged me too (spoilers Touched) -- lunasea, 11:55:08 05/07/03 Wed

My second priority, of course, was figuring out how Spike knew all of what he knew when his scene consisted of walking in, hearing Willow's explanation, getting his ass kicked, and walking out. Say, he psychic now, too?

I tried to put it out of my mind and enjoy the tenderness of the scene, but it did bug me.

There is a difference between Buffy and Faith, Buffy has really good instincts. She went against them in "Dirty Girls" and shit happened. She went with them in "Touched" and we will have to see what she is doing that is so interesting for someone to enjoy seeing it again.

Faith doesn't have these. Can't fault her for that.

[> [> [> About Spike -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:56:03 05/07/03 Wed

His words were along the lines that Buffy was right, Caleb did have something at the vineyard. However, back in "Dirty Girls", Spike was still around, and Buffy took them all to the vineyard because of Caleb's comment that he had something of hers. I have no trouble seeing Spike's statement as relating to what he heard Buffy say in "Dirty Girls" rather than "Empty Places".

[> [> [> [> Thank you Finn!! -- Kate, 17:08:42 05/07/03 Wed

That does explain it. My mind is much more at ease now!! :)

[> Snark, snark, snark -- dream, 11:26:01 05/07/03 Wed

Here's the thing: Buffy admitted that she had been doing things wrong, that her "GeneralBuffy" attitude was off the mark. And Willow and Faith both admitted that they weren't sure that they did the right thing in sending her away (although really, it was only Dawn who sent Buffy away - the rest just asked her to let someone else lead.) Really, it's an "enough blame for everyone" sort of situation.

Buffy couldn't lead in the way she was trying to. And Willow and Faith were right - she needed sleep. Once Buffy got a good night's sleep, she was able to re-arrange her tactics.

And I think Faith did a decent enough job of leading. She was given the assignment; she didn't ask for it (any more than Buffy did). She worked out, with some input from the otehrs, a reasonable enough plan. Yes, it was a trap, but I don't know that, if, say, I were in that situation, I would have considered it a trap. "Here, Slayer - I've got something of ours!" screams trap. Catching a Bringer, finding a spell that allows them to communciate with a mute, using the information gained from that spell, and planning a well-armed daytime attack - doesn't scream trap. In hindsight - sure it's a trap. But I don't think the situations are exactly equivalent.
Of course, I do think that the parallels are there to undercut one-sided arguments. The group does need a leader - Buffy is right, pure democracy won't work in this situation. But asking for input makes a difference in how people respond. Buffy IS right about the winery. But if she had attacked before she had time to work out the evasive-action approach to Caleb, it probably would have been disastrous.

Everyone's a little right; everyone's a little wrong. Don't think that's double standard.

That wasn't really a direct reply, was it? Oh, well, incoherence has its merits.

[> [> LOL -- Sophist, 12:48:25 05/07/03 Wed

incoherence has its merits

It sure does in my profession.

[> [> Well, it was direct enough...Power and the end of the series (spoilers for EP and Touched) -- Random, straying way off-topic, 13:06:26 05/07/03 Wed

Sorry Sophist, this is one of the rare times that I tend to disagree with your assessment (of course, I was one of the ones who felt Buffy was more in the wrong, though I didn't, I think, "berate" her. Or maybe I did, heheh) But the situations are not analogous for the simple reason that Buffy's fault lay not in her reasoning that they had to do dangerous things and that one of those dangerous things might have to be to go back to the vineyard. What we are looking at here, I think, is the approaching apotheosis of the FE's declaration back in Lessons: "It's about power."

But what we are really confronted with in the latter part of S7 is the question Buffy asked years ago: "Power: who has it?" What is it good for? What does the FE wish to achieve by gaining "power?" If we are to believe what we've seen so far, the FE wants power only to achieve the ultimate destruction of things. To be done with this mortal coil. This is almost an example of that rarest of things: the possession of something for its own sake. Not quite, of course. The FE wants power to achieve a goal, but that goal itself spells the end of power as a meaningful concept. The purity of that goal (philosophically speaking, of course, not morally) is the true danger to Buffy here. The incorporeality of the First, the strength of its servants like the Turok-han and Caleb, the pervasiveness of the Bringers...these are merely fugue themes. In the end, what Buffy is battling is merely a definition of power and the means of imposing that definition. She isn't yet clear on the terms. She's still battling the Master trying to bring hell on Earth, and Adam trying to carry out a plan of genocide. She isn't prepared for the possibility that evil and destruction are only tools for the First, that the war she is trying to wage isn't a war against the FE, it's only a war against the immediate dangers the FE is presenting. She agonizes about the danger, about the responsibility, and soldiers on as always. But what she should be agonizing about isn't victory and the price of war, but her own ability to attain power in terms that can effectively combat the FE.

For this is the nature of her doom -- the FE appears back in "Lessons" and essentially declares that all bets are off. It is time to forget good and evil, forget the petty ambitions of previous Big Bads. It's time to end this once and for all, to take the power. It isn't trying to defeat the Slayer and her ilk...the Slayer is, in fact, becoming yet another tool in the First's ambitions. We all wonder why the FE's tools continue to spare Buffy when she is in their grasp. The answer, I think, is simple: power makes no distinctions between good and evil. Where most of the Big Bads would have killed Buffy in a heartbeat had other motivations not interfered (Angelus' perverse personality, Adam's need to use her, Glory's, um, not-quite-convincing explanation that Ben was influencing her...plus the fact that the Master and the Mayor certainly tried and failed), the FE seems to recognize that achieving true power lies not in merely defeating the weaker foe. It lies in mastering the sources of power. I would suggest that the FE's true goal is not to become ascendent, but transcendent.

So now we are confronted with Buffy and her perception of Power. She feels she has to be strong, be decisive, be authoritarian, in order to confront the FE. She wants to lead them back into the wine cellar, knowing it's probably a trap, in order to take the battle to them. And then we have Faith. The difference between their situations has been more than adequately explored by dream, but I would like to expand on one point: when Buffy returns to the cellar, she has had an epiphany. She finally realizes that this is not the sort of war she has envisioned. Her epiphany isn't so simple as it seems. Avoiding Caleb's grasp is a sound and intelligent approach to the physical battle. But it implies something deeper. Buffy has realized that she's been allowing the FE to manipulate her all along, that returning to the cellar in full-on assault mode would have been more than agreeable to Caleb and the FE. They're trying to hide the weapon, not protect it. So Buffy comprehends at last that she's not fighting Caleb or the Bringers or the Turok-han. Attacking Caleb in the wine cellar misses the point. He's merely a tool. She's fighting the FE's attempt to manipulate her in its attempt to gain true power. She's fighting the attempt to make her into an actor in the FE's drama. Does anyone doubt that the combination of Caleb and a few hundred Bringers wouldn't suffice to destroy the entire gang once and for all? But this is not a war -- it's a power-play in progress, and the question is, simply, "Who is writing the script?" If that weren't the case, then it wouldn't have bothered the cache all those weapons only to blow them up along with anyone in the area. Taking the initiative, as Buffy was arguing in EP, is meaningless if your opponent wants you to do so. One does not gain power merely through controlling one's own actions...but through controlling the fundamental causes and effects. In the end, the winner of the chess game is the one who is capable of making the last move, not the one who has captured the most pieces. Both sides control their own destinies, their own actions. That is a given. What matters...the crucial point...is who controls the game as a whole. Who maneuvers into position to make the final move? The endgame is a matter of seeing far enough ahead to realize that no one move matters...it is the strategy that wins. This is the lesson that Buffy needed to learn and that Faith had no need of -- not necessarily because she already knows it, but because her role isn't the same as Buffy's in this little drama

(I wish Rah still posted more frequently...I really want to hear her insights on power.)

(Side note: a slight vindication of Buffy's role, though, can be seen in the fact that the FE/Caleb entrusts Faith's fate to an impersonal tool -- the bomb. The ubervamp, or Caleb, can withhold that final blow, leave Buffy alive...the bomb is far less discriminating.)

Geez, way to stay on-topic, Random. Heh.

[> [> [> Your post compares Buffy in Touched (spoilers to that ep) -- Sophist, 13:50:20 05/07/03 Wed

with Buffy before Touched. My post compared Faith in Touched to Buffy pre-Touched. That's where I think the double standard applies (see my response to Masq, above, for a quick summary of the two).

I'm certainly not arguing about the overall goal of the season or the weapons appropriate to defeating the FE's plan. As far as that goes, I would say this:

The FE is intangible and can only work through corporeal agents. Defeating/destroying those agents may not defeat the FE, but it does delay implementation of the plan (at least, that's what we were told after Showtime). Because of this collateral benefit, I don't have any problem with Buffy or Faith engaging in straight power plays while they figure out the real answer. For this reason, I consider the criticisms of Buffy's behavior (or ME's "message") pre-Touched to be mis-directed and unfair.

To be clear, I am not criticising Faith for trying to fight fire with gasoline. I'm criticizing her for the same (or worse) flaws in execution for which Buffy was reamed after DG.

[> [> [> Wow, random. Really brilliant! I think you've hit it right on. -- Dyna, 16:05:19 05/07/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> That *was* truly brilliant. Prepare for quotage! :-) -- OnM, 16:26:43 05/08/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks Dyna and OnM...off to prepare myself... -- Random, 18:06:44 05/08/03 Thu

[> Oh I was thinking it...just hid it in my post, trying to be good. (Spoilers for Touched) -- s'kat, 13:53:39 05/07/03 Wed

After all the posts berating "Generalissima Buffy", her "inability to see a trap", and her "lousy tactics", I just know I'm going to read dozens of similar criticisms of Faith's behavior in Touched. After all, no one would dream of applying a double standard.

Oh I thought it. Didn't you see it cleverly hidden in my snarky comments about Faith and the potentials finding the bomb?

Yep, the SG walked right into that one. All they did was ex-change one General von Slayer for another. Hee Hee.

[> Generalissima Faith....... just for Sophist (Spoilers for Touched) -- Rufus, 21:24:46 05/07/03 Wed

It's easier to drive from the back seat....once you are in the drivers you realize there is more to the job of driving than what that backseat view may have indicated.

Faith: Things are different, because now....I'm your boss. Look, you guys, I'm not Buffy, I'm not the one who's been on your asses all this time. But I'm not one of you anymore either. I'm your leader, which means I go first, and I make the rules, and the rest of you follow after me. Is that clear?

[> [> Thanks -- Sophist, 10:02:03 05/08/03 Thu

[> Re: An admittedly snarky expression of curiousity. (Spoilers for Touched) -- Malandanza, 09:13:28 05/08/03 Thu

"After all the posts berating 'Generalissima Buffy', her 'inability to see a trap', and her 'lousy tactics', I just know I'm going to read dozens of similar criticisms of Faith's behavior in Touched. After all, no one would dream of applying a double standard."

I think what Faith's failed raid showed, more than anything else, is that the Coup de Buffy was all about personalities rather than policies. As you and others have pointed out, Faith's "plan" had worse tactics than Buffy's first raid of the winery. She didn't have reserves, she didn't do recon -- her plan resembles nothing so much as Buffy's proposed second raid, the ostensible reason for the mutiny. This time, not a murmur of protest. If the Buffy's plan was obviously a trap, the Scoobies should have considered Faith plan the same way. The rebellion wasn't about the plan.

I've been saying Faith's plan, but of course that's not entirely true. Faith has had input and support from the Scoobies all the way through. It was as much Willow's and Giles' plan as Faith's plan. However, collective guilt (assuming the Scoobies don't disavow any responsibility of their own) isn't going to bring back any dead or maimed girls any more than did Buffy's assumption of full responsibility.

I haven't felt that Buffy fit the role of Generalisima -- she just isn't capable of leading by brutality. She's not ruthless and in spite of her talk about being willing to sacrifice others for the greater good, she really doesn't have it in her. Sacrifice herself? Sure, not a problem. But the woman who told Giles she would be willing to sacrifice Dawn this time around was torn up by the deaths of two Potentials and the loss of Xander's eye. She's not a Watcher, no matter how hard she tries to play the part, or how sincerely she believes she must fill the role.

Faith fits the role of Generalisima much better than Buffy. Looking back at Machiavelli's
most famous proclamation, it is better to be feared than loved
, Faith follows the pattern better than Buffy. (Machiavelli actually said it was best to be both feared and loved and important not to be hated, but as fear and love are difficult emotions to cultivate simultaneously, fear is better than love if a choice has to be made).

"And men have less scruple in offending one who makes himself loved than one who makes himself feared; for love is held by a chain of obligation which, men being selfish, is broken whenever it serves their purpose; but fear is maintained by a dread of punishment which never fails."

Buffy led by love and that "chain of obligation" was broken by Buffy's staunchest supported, Xander, when Xander suffered personal affliction. Faith established her dominance over the Potential in a way that Buffy never did -- she publicly shut down Kennedy, their self-appointed spokeswoman. Furthermore, Faith does have respect based on fear from the Scoobies -- they all remember Faith from her out of control days and no matter how much power they have now, the memories of being terrified by an out of control, murderous slayer against whom they are helpless stays with them. Faith's reaction to her failed raid will tell us whether or not she will become the general she's capable of being. I believe she has it in her power to cow the others in spite of anything they say about her responsibility in the debacle, but Faith may be too uncertain of herself to exert that power. Certainly if there is a second mutiny, I expect the tone to be very different from Buffy bash '03.

Ultimately, I give Buffy the edge in leadership on tactics, while Faith gets it for ability to maintain order. For a Slayer regime to work, Buffy needs Faith to be her secret police, keeping the peasants and ambitious lieutenants in line while Buffy does the planning. A benevolent dictatorship. Under such a system, we could talk about Generalisima Buffy.

[> [> Faith allowed exactly as much participation as (Spoilers for Touched) -- Sophist, 13:23:58 05/08/03 Thu

Stalin did at the average Politburo meeting.

Faith decided what the target was, rejecting Kennedy's alternative without any discussion.

Faith made the plan of attack (I didn't see Willow participate in the plan, but I think it's fair to include Giles, as you did).

If anything, Buffy was more inclusive than Faith.

[> [> [> Re: Faith allowed exactly as much participation as (Spoilers for Touched) -- Malandanza, 07:17:21 05/09/03 Fri

"Stalin did at the average Politburo meeting."

Harsh -- funny, but harsh. Actually, though, I think the comparison is off -- much as the Buffy is a Nazi/Gestapo Agent/Hitler comparisons are off.

"Faith decided what the target was, rejecting Kennedy's alternative without any discussion.

"Faith made the plan of attack (I didn't see Willow participate in the plan, but I think it's fair to include Giles, as you did).

"If anything, Buffy was more inclusive than Faith."

I have a hard time faulting Faith for her "shut the hell up" comment -- I've been waiting for a "shut up, Kennedy" episode
for quite some time. However, I don't think that Faith shutting Kennedy down was an example of her refusal to listen to anyone but herself. Instead, it was a tactic to restore order among the Potentials -- by specifically targeting Kennedy. Had she chosen some other Potential (like Amanda, shutting her up about Robert's Rules) it would not have had the same impact. By limiting Kennedy's comments, she established her authority over the entire group. Anyway, Kennedy's remarks were mostly of the "why can't I be in charge, too" variety -- not particularly helpful.

Keep in mind that we saw Faith listening to Andrew -- really listening and complimenting him on his thoughts. If she'll listen to Andrew, she'll listen to anyone (somehow, I can't picture Stalin listening to Andrew).

I included Willow because Willow openly supported Faith's decision to put Kennedy in her place. Kennedy was perfectly willing to keep arguing with the general until Willow told her not to push (probably a good thing for Kennedy that Willow shut her up when she did, considering how the Faith/Spike confrontation went). To me, this suggests Willow's not particularly tacit support of everything Faith has been doing (and I actually felt sorry for Kennedy for a moment). The maps and such were probably from Willow as well -- although I suppose Dawn might be the primary researcher these days as Willow is often too busy with her girlfriend to be doing anything useful.

[> [> [> [> Classroom management (Spoilers for Touched) -- Sophist, 12:58:24 05/09/03 Fri

I agree that Kennedy was pushing too hard. However, her proposal was far from stupid. Buffy had an epiphany about the vinyard. Maybe she was right, maybe not. Hard to tell whether the mutineers agreed with that part of her speech or not. Either way, I wouldn't expect them to just blow off consideration of the Hellmouth.

Once Faith did quash Kennedy, no other suggestions were made. Hardly surprising, especially after Faith gave that speech that Rufus so nicely quoted for me. If Faith wanted to run a collegial atmosphere, she had a peculiar way of doing so.

To me, this suggests Willow's not particularly tacit support of everything Faith has been doing

This is pure spec, but my guess is that all the core SG, especially Willow, will be expressing second thoughts at the beginning of the next episode.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Classroom management (Spoilers for Touched) -- Malandanza, 18:44:20 05/09/03 Fri

"However, [Kennedy's] proposal was far from stupid."

I'm not sure what proposal you're referring to -- the one I thought preceded the "shut the hell up" comment was her insistence that she -- I mean, all the Potentials who've been in Sunnydale the longest -- ought to have more of a say in what happens than the latest recruits. (Maybe Rufus will quote the whole meeting for us at some point :) And, actually, Faith seems to have taken Kennedy's point to heart -- excluding the recent Sunnydale arrivals from the command structure (i.e., all the Potentials) and letting the experienced people make the plans. I don't believe the Potentials have any say in Faith's government (except tangentially for Kennedy, since she has some influence with Willow) but that the Scoobies are equal partners. I agree that the Potentials had more of a say when Buffy was in charge -- but I also think that the Scoobies have more of a say with Faith. Furthermore, I think Kennedy was better off under Buffy. I just don't see Faith putting a "prep school brat" in charge of anything.

"This is pure spec, but my guess is that all the core SG, especially Willow, will be expressing second thoughts at the beginning of the next episode."

I certainly agree that there'll be rumblings of discontent, but I don't think that shows the Scoobies have been excluded. I think they'd shift the responsibility to Faith whether they feel disenfranchised or not. It's too bad that there aren't 7 or 8 more episodes to go so that each of the Scoobies could have their chance at being the supreme commander -- maybe then they'd understand how Buffy feels when a girl she's trying her hardest to keep alive dies. They want a piece of the power without any of the responsibility. Somehow, I don't think Faith is going to accept full responsibility the way Buffy has in the past.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Classroom management (Spoilers for Touched) -- Sophist, 19:41:34 05/09/03 Fri

I'm going off memory, but I recall the sequence like this: someone brought up going after the arsenal and Faith indicated she liked that plan. Kennedy then pushed for going back to the Hellmouth, on the ground that it was likely to still be important. At this point, Faith told Kennedy to shut up, Willow agreed, and Faith gave her speech Rufus quoted.

If I'm right about the sequence, I'll stand by my view of Faith. If you're right that she was responding to the "we should be in charge" comment, I'll agree you're right. If it turns out to be all one sequence, then I'll withold judgment.

It's too bad that there aren't 7 or 8 more episodes to go so that each of the Scoobies could have their chance at being the supreme commander -- maybe then they'd understand how Buffy feels when a girl she's trying her hardest to keep alive dies. They want a piece of the power without any of the responsibility

Ditto.

Eric Alterman on Buffy--Spoilers to date -- Arethusa, 11:38:48 05/07/03 Wed

From Eric Alterman's net column:

AND NOW, FROM THE CULTURE DESK

Speaking of the "About Schmidt" RV enthusiast: The initiated among you will know that that character was played by Harry Groener, whose greatest star turn in recent years was of course his portrayal of Mayor Wilkins on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," one of the great works of art produced in recent television history.

"Buffy" is genius. But this season has been kind of a weird disappointment, no? I mean, what's with the extensive war imagery and all these good-and-evil metaphors? One aspect of the show's brilliance has been that it has always presented its morality, which is in some ways quite clear and direct, with a nudge and a wink - there was always a nod to the idea that that there was some bad in the good people and some good in the bad people, or that the moral coordinates could turn on a dime; and it was always done in a light way that took the pressure off. But now, the writers are sounding, I hate to say this, like the Bush administration.

Thoughts, fans? I'm open to more benign interpretations

(Evidently this was written by guest Mike Tomasky??)

BUFFY, THY NAME IS...

Mike Tomasky received a bunch of responses from Buffy-ites, and there was general agreement that, yes, the show had slipped this year, falling into a very administration-like (and un-Buffy-like) "us" vs. "them" moral schema. Several correspondents expressed grave disappointment and even anger. A few, while conceding that this seemed to be true, made the case that it was an intentional commentary on the Bush gang: that it's very much to be noted that Buffy, acting now as a moral absolutist - the Wolfowitz of the Scoobies, if you will - was in fact cast out by her comrades in the last episode. Having thus been isolated and shunned, she will drop the preaching (the show's defenders anticipate) about good and evil, which has not rallied the troops and in fact only offended her potential allies (get it?), and just get on in a more pragmatic way with the business at hand; which is to say, that the last episode will establish firmly that the entire season has been a critique of absolutism. Tomasky himself wants to believe this but isn't quite persuaded.

[> Weird (spoilers up to Touched) -- ponygirl, 12:34:04 05/07/03 Wed

I can't believe that anyone would equate ME writers with the Bush administration, or that the show could be seen as advocating moral absolutism. The show's made a point of undercutting such ideas both by action - the constant disproving of Buffy's statements in Potential springs to mind - or by the characters themselves - Buffy's doubts, the mutiny. Plus the constant suggestion that the season's Big Bad is made up of the evil in all people. The whole philosophy of dividing people into categories of good/evil, dirty/clean was pretty much de-bunked IMO by having Caleb be its chief advocate.

[> [> Yeah, but that has been argued here -- mamcu, 20:14:05 05/07/03 Wed

And it even crossed my mind at times when the "war" scenario was first being set up on Buffy and in the world, but it was so heavy handed that it seemed clearly to be a parody (on Buffy and in the world). And I would assume that column was written or at least the ideas developed before Dirty Girls, maybe back around the time of Get It Done.

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