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I was going to do one a day -- lunasea, 17:10:34 03/06/03 Thu

But the whole thing is done, so here it is. All episodes and a 3 part conclusion that involves S5 and predictions about S7. I will post the whole thing on one thread so that it all stays together. It is very anti-Spike, so if you don't like reading stuff said against him, I recommend not reading it. Don't say you weren't warned.

It is ONLY about Buffy's Dark Night. Anything else mentioned is done to show how it compares/contrast with this or what a particular episode was going for. Again, it is heavily Anti-Spike.

It is also incredibly personal. My goal was to show how the season showed us what Buffy's Dark Night was like. Marti said S6 was Buffy's Dark Night, so at least that part is accurate.

That isn't to say the entire season didn't have other themes. This is just what I am dealing with. I would like to do Willow another time, but that requires earlier seasons. It will be called "The Vamping of Willow."

Feel free to say anything. If you think I am nuts, I agree. If you have anything to add, great.
[> Intro, Bargaining through Flooded (already been posted) -- lunasea, 17:13:45 03/06/03 Thu

How the hell did Joss and friends, especially Jane Espenson, write that? It usually isn't addressed. Angel is the hero's journey. He goes into the bowels of hell and comes back smarter and makes the world a better place. For him, Reprise is followed by Ephiphany. Not so with Buffy. She enters the Dark Night of the Soul.

It is set up S5, with "Intervention." In it, she appeals to a higher consciousness. Buffy concentrates on the second part of the message, the gift, death, and misses what I see as the important part.

You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.

When I heard this, I thought of the Phoenix. What Buffy needs to do in order to be reborn, in order to die, is to jump into the fire. In "The Gift," the scene contains many symbols from the myth of the Phoenix. The portal even looks a bit like a nest on fire. When Buffy dives into the portal, she looks like a bird (it isn't called a Swan dive for nothing). The sun, the leap off a man-made cliff, all symbols associated with the myth.

The death of Buffy/the Phoenix is a Gift because it causes her to be reborn, even better than before. Then they bring her back S6 and she isn't better. She isn't reborn. Why?

That is where Buffy's Dark Night of the Soul comes in. Watching "After Life" this time around was different. Something happpened to me this September. I found heaven. I woke up from a nap one day and there is was. It was just like Buffy described it.

I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? (glances at him, then away) And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven.

It is what Zen calls "Big Mind." It was an amazing experience, but I couldn't stay there. Why is the same reason Buffy says "I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends." My connections to them demands "Small Mind." Once I started seeing them, giving them form, I had form. My family, my beautiful daughters, my husband, that is what kept me from being able to maintain Big Mind/heaven.

When I came back, it was just like Buffy described,

Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... (softly) knowing what I've lost...

Absolutely nothing brought me joy like it did once before, not even my girls. The web site I give at the begining does a great job of describing this.

In Afterlife, it is interesting that Buffy is fighting a demon without form. That is what she wants to return to. Her small mind world with form has to fight the big mind formless.

Then we move onto Flooded. Finances, the hallmark of the world of form. God is it painful to have to deal with these. They don't matter. Just "pieces of paper sent by bureaucrats that we've never even met. It's not like it's the end of the world. " It is so hard to have to deal with things that really don't matter. It is hard enough to deal with people that sort of do matter.

The conversation between Willow and Buffy when Buffy gets mad, Hubby and I have had that one, more than once. These shows hit him hard too, but from the other side of it. We had a great talk last night.

Then there is the conversation between Giles and Buffy. It is easier to tell people about being afraid of waking up in a box or recovering from Hell, than it is to describe what is really going on. I didn't even know myself. I just wasn't happy. I didn't know why.

Then we get another Spike discussion. Vampires are our shadows. Buffy isn't having these talks with another person, she is having them with herself, trying to puzzle things out. As Spike says "that's when you are alone."

BUFFY: I guess. Everyone ... (long pause) they all care. They all care so much, it ... makes it all harder.
SPIKE: I'm not sure I followed you around that bend, luv. (steps onto second stair)
BUFFY: I don't know. I just, I feel like I'm spending all of my time trying to be okay, so they don't worry. It's exhausting. And then, I...

She trails off, makes a frustrated gesture and then clenches her hand into a fist.

SPIKE: And that makes 'em worry even more.

How to get out of this viscious circle? It is so hard. You came back because of them and they are making it harder. If they would stop looking at you, seeing if you are ok, hoping you are ok, then you wouldn't have to pretend to be ok.

You aren't the standard not-ok. How do you describe what you are going through (showing them S6 does wonders for that)? You don't even know yourself.

I am just going to go show by show and give my experience to maybe shed a little light on what Buffy is going through. Thing with S6 is there is no revelation that comes to really end it. It isn't like the descent to hell that the hero's journey is built on. I think that is why people had problems with it. There didn't seem to be a point to the misery. That is the point, though.
[> Life Serial (already been posted) -- lunasea, 17:15:51 03/06/03 Thu

Life Serial continues Buffy's Dark Night of the Soul.

I love how it opens with Buffy almost happy. She gets to see Angel and touch the higher consciousness for a while. She comes back a bit recharged. That is until, her gift of fried chicken isn't necessary. Then you can literally see the life drained out of her again. Back out of heaven (being with Angel) and having to deal with mundane life again.

So what is our hero going to do? She has to find a way to resume her "life." First instinct, do what she was doing before, go back to college. Thing is college doesn't fit with her any more.

I loved the scenes in the classroom. I love when ME writes class dialogue that seems to be like filler, but actually tells what they are trying to do. We got Professor Walsch and her Freudian crap S4, we had the talk about Quasimodo S5 and S6 we have Sociology Class. (i'm sure there is some high school class stuff, too)

To pull it out, since it went by so fast:

MIKE: Social Construction of Reality. Who can tell me what that is? (many students raise their hands including Willow) Rachel.
RACHEL: A concept involving a couple of opposing theories, one stressing the externality and independence of social reality from individuals. (Buffy looks confused)
MIKE: And the flip side? (many hands raised) Steve?
STEVE: That each individual participates fully in the construction of his or her own life.
MIKE: Good, and who can expand on that? (hands) Chuck?
CHUCK: Well, those on the latter side of the theoretical divide stress...
BUFFY: (leans toward Willow and whispers) Will, I'm not following this too well.
WILLOW: Oh. The trick is to get in the rhythm, kinda go with the flow. (raises her hand)
BUFFY: Flow-going would be a lot easier if your classmates weren't such big brains.
WILLOW: (hand still raised) Buffy, that's ridiculous! They are no smarter than you or me.
MIKE: (O.S.) Willow.
WILLOW: (lowers hand, speaks to Mike) Because social phenomena don't have unproblematic objective existences. They have to be interpreted and given meanings by those who encounter them. (Buffy stares at Willow)
MIKE: (O.S.) Nicely put. So, Ruby, does that mean there are countless realities?

There are 2 things going on here. First is Buffy feeling like she doesn't fit in a world she once excelled in. Prof. Walsch had her delivering papers S4 and Willow was jealous of her. Now she feels inferior compared to the "big brains."

The second is the subtext of what they are talking about. I wil leave that for others to talk about, if they want. For me it is about Big vs Small mind. I have already written about that. Also, think about the above in terms of Dawn and Normal Again.

Next Tara gives her a book. Did anyone else notice what Buffy opens to? It is one of my favorite sculptures of all time, Bernini's "Ecstacy of St. Teresa." I love St. Teresas of Avila so much, that she is the inspiration for my older daughter's middle name (everyone else can think it is my husband's beloved grandmother).

I do recommend anyone who is interested in spirituality or is a "seeker" do some research on her and read "The Way of Perfection" which she wrote. A google search will give you lots of stuff.

She is patron saint of a lot (she is one of the most significant saints to Catholic theology, male or female): bodily ills, headaches, lacemakers, laceworkers, loss of parents, opposition of Church authorities, people in need of grace, people in religious orders, people ridiculed for their piety, sick people, sickness, Spain

I could do a really long post on her. That picture was no accident. The camera got a clear shot of it and it is a famous sculpture. I would love to hear some other people's interpretation of why they included this.

Back to the show.

Who here doesn't feel like they are being "tested?" The tests that Buffy goes through is pretty much what the Dark Night feels like. I have had days where I feel like I am out of phase with everyone, like they are moving and I am standing still, not just mentally, but physcially. The world seems to move around me and I miss it as it goes so fast. I feel like I get knocked down (Buffy has super strength and cordination, should a human being be able to knock her down) by what is going on around me that is oblivious to my state. Tara was great--she was concerned, but she kept on going.

Then Buffy tries the world of construction. She is going to build stuff, well she is going to help others build stuff. What she ends up doing is destroying things. The people she saves totally turn on her. They are only concerned with the mundane world of their jobs. I loved how the scene progresses. First they are saying she isn't going to fit in. Then she shows how strong she is and they like her. Tony was even coming over to tell her that he was impressed.

Just as she starts to fit in, her higher calling screws things up. I loved how the demons melted, thus taking away evidence of what she did. Sure feels that way sometimes, I have to fight to make things work and just when they seem to, bam, I am reminded of why they don't. There isn't anything to show people why this is.

Next test: endless loop, based on pleasing another. Life is an endless loop and it seems pleasing another is the hardest thing to do in that. If you cannot be happy yourself, how are you supposed to be able to make others happy?It seems to pointless and at the end, Buffy quits.

The mummy's hand was a great touch. Buffy is the Hand. She feels all old and decrepit now. She should be dead, but is still animated. Let's see what is wrong with the hand "Power is gone" fingers are cut off, hand tries to strangle lady, etc, all things that apply to Buffy.

Then there is how she progresses as the scene wears on. Her attitude gets more and more blaise. She is more and more removed from the situation. It ends with her quitting. I love how she turned in her name tag, her identity.

I also love what it takes to resolve the situation, getting a hand special ordered. What is in the shop is not going to work. When she accepts this, she is delivered from the test. Just like the Dark Night will end when she accepts it and realizes she cannot make things better.

So next she goes to see Spike, in his crypt. Crypt, underground, symbolizing the unconscious. Not even Spike can help her. He says he will and fills her with hope, but he goes and plays kitten poker. He just wanted to pretend that she was his lady for the night.

Then there is the bit about she belongs in the dark. When you don't fit with the light, there is a tendancy to believe that you do belong in the dark. Thing is Buffy doesn't fit *anywhere.*

Best part of the whole episode were the faces she made while she was drinking. It wasn't something enjoyable, but she kept doing it. What else was there to do?

I like when she says "I'm not playing by anyone else's rules any more." Like she ever did before. She is starting to realize how she doesn't fit in this world any more. Even her unconscious has let her down. He cheats and didn't do what he said he would.

But then Giles makes things a little better with the check. Rupert makes things better. In Latin, Rupert means destruction within. In French is it road through. Both having meaning in medieval stories that deal with the Dark Night.

It ends with Buffy saying "I just ... wanna tell you ... that, um ... this ... makes me feel safe. Knowing you're always gonna be here. "

Giles knows that she cannot just feel safe because some guy is around (so did Angel). That isn't really feeling safe. Both Angel and Giles know how strong Buffy is. They see her heart. They cannot let that heart dim because she is using them as a crutch.

They are willing to put Buffy through the Dark Night because of what the end of it means and they know she will make it though.

You saw how Buffy was when she came back from the dead. Do you think it was easy for Angel to let her go like that? As she put it "it was intense." She can tell him anything. What do you think they talked about? The Show starts with Buffy getting a pit stop with Angel and being sent back to her Dark Night. It ends with getting another breather, but Giles knowing she has to go back to her Dark Night.

It was a very well done episode.
[> All the Way (posted before) -- lunasea, 17:17:43 03/06/03 Thu

Since I am focusing on the Dark Night of the Soul for Buffy in my interpretation of S6, I am focusing on Buffy.

This episode is the "I really miss Angel" episode for her.

I love the exchange with Spike at the begining "Feel like a bit of the rough and tumble?" Her interpretation of that shows where her mind is. Poor Spike, he will always just be a substitute for Angel (or Riley). The sexual subtexts of this show were great.

One thing I do have to say which has nothing to do with the Dark Night is that Buffy and Giles aren't exactly doing Cart wheels about Anya. "Anya is a wonderful former vengeance demon, I'm sure you'll spend ... many years of ... non-hell-dimensional bliss"

I liked the way Buffy and Giles connect throughout this episode, except at the end. It shows how comfortable she is with him and also takes him for granted.

Poor Buffy. Anya's happiness just reminds her of how unhappy she is and how much she misses Angel. Buffy is still trying to move forward, but the more she tries, the less she is able. It sucks.

Dawns comment:Oh, like you've never fallen for a vampire?

Was waaayy out of line, but it did underscore Angel and Buffy's relationship. Justin was the least creepy, almost nice, vampire so far. Watching Justin and Dawn was almost sweet. The conversation Giles had with Dawn also contrasted with the one he had with Buffy after Angel lost his soul.

But this episode was about Willow (and Dawn). Buffy's pain is in the background, but Willow is the important figure. This one I am doing Buffy and her Dark Night of the Soul.
[> OMWF (posted before) -- lunasea, 17:19:13 03/06/03 Thu

Once More with Feeling

Not going to comment on anything but the title.

Musicals have always been about emotion. Sing something and it means that much more. Poetry is great, but put it to a song and you not only have the words, but add whole entire layers. Add in dancing and you get even more layers.

The only way Buffy can express herself is through song. She sings about not feeling. Then at the end of all that emotion, Sweet says "Once More with Feeling" the title, which is supposed to draw our attention to it.

What is the purpose of his methods? Bring out what is buried in them, the emotions and ideas they are too afraid to touch. After that, then people have to deal with them, if it doesn't consume them. Now that Buffy and friends know what these are and have expressed them to each other, do it again, this time with feeling.

Actually one more thing, Sweet isn't a good demon. He brings all of this out and then at the end, Buffy wants to feel. She turns to Spike in order to do this, NOT A GOOD THING PEOPLE!!!!!

Buffy isn't working through her Dark Night. She is trying to run from it. She isn't accepting what she has to. She doesn't want to be. She is trying to be what she thinks she should be. Thus we enter into the rest of S6 and her relationship with Spike. Again NOT A GOOD THING!!!!!

Buffy with Spike is like Willow using magik for a high. NOT A GOOD THING!!!! (Have I said that already)

One more thing, pay attention to when they are singing and when they are talking. They only sing for the tough emotional stuff. Otherwise, they can talk. Sweet's power over them is tied to their emotions, their feelings. Those that combust have too much inside of them to handle.

Probably the best written episode, so far. It isn't just a musical for musical's sake. Joss actually addresses what musicals do and uses that to highlight Buffy's Dark Night. WOW!!!!!

Once More with Feeling, indeed.
[> Tabula Rasa (posted before) -- lunsea, 17:21:20 03/06/03 Thu

****Warning, from here on in, severe criticism of Spike's actions and character****

First the title, Tabula Rasa. It means writing tablet scraped, or clean slate.

People tend to interpret this episode as showing what are the characters' true nature, especially in the case of Spike. I don't see that as what this show is about.

Back to "Life Serial" and the classroom scene--the Social Construct of Reality. One of the students says, "Because social phenomena don't have unproblematic objective existences. They have to be interpreted and given meanings by those who encounter them"

This show isn't about the characters' true nature, to me (though that is a valid interpretation), so much as it is about how the characters interpret and give meanings to the social phenomena they encounter.

I will use Spike to illustrate this point before moving onto Buffy.
Spike's first interpretation is about his accent and how comfortable he is saying certain words. His takes this to mean that he and Giles are related. Then he assumes that he must hate his father. Next Anya and Giles are figuring out their relationship to each other and Spike has to interject his judgmental comments.

I loved that Spike didn't have ID, but he did have a name from the suit he stole. His reaction to his name, again more judgment. If you want to see Spike's true nature, it is in his need to connect and be judgmental (and humorous). The comments about Giles' car were great. They were funny, judgmental and to some degree accurate (though I don't think Giles got a phallic shaped car for mid-life crisis. It was to celebrate, not to deny)

Now we go to what Spike shippers point to as "proof" of Spike being good at heart. "Hey, I'm a superhero too! " Notice the too. Spike isn't good at heart. He is defining himself based on "Joan." Joan is a superhero, so he must be one too. He defines himself as good because he doesn't want to bite Joan.

The vampire with a soul bit was funny, but it didn't fit. They don't know anything about vampires or what the soul does. Same thing about redemption. Cute Angel references and funny, but really stretching.

The whole thing wasn't about the clean slate, but how that slate got filled up. That revealed a character's true nature. It isn't just our blank state that is our nature, but how we go about interpreting things that fill it up.

So now onto Buffy and some serious criticism of Spike.

The loan shark stuff was cute, but this one line of Buffy's stuck with me "If I were to stop saving his life, it would simple things up *so* much."

Translate to: if I were to stop saving my ego, it would simple things up so much (and I could go back to heaven). When she is talking about/to Spike, she is talking about/to her own self. All dialogue between them can be interpreted in this light.

Again Spike ducks out, leaving her alone to face things. What is this about him not abandoning her? I like how Spike is in financial trouble like Buffy is.

Giles is leaving Buffy because he has become her crutch. Way to go ME!!!!! Abandoning someone is when you leave and they cannot handle things. Giles (and Angel) know that Buffy can handle things. The reason she spirals downward is because Spike interferes. Like I said, serious Spike criticism from here on out this season.

Back to the Dark Night. When you are that hopeless, you grab onto things. Buffy is grabbing onto Giles. She tried to do the same with Angel. At least Giles didn't say she was acting like a brat. I would love to have seen Angel and Buffy's meeting, but the WB is evil. Instead we get to see the scene between Giles and Buffy, without the sexual tension.

By grabbing, we don't make things better. We just prolong the process. Giles knows this and is one heck of man to be able to leave. After the intense feelings that are displayed in OMWF, Giles knows what he has to do. It isn't about being able to do anything together. It is about being able to do it on your own, when you can. That is what being a man (or woman) is about. An adult knows when to ask for help, but s/he also knows when not to.

This is one thing that Buffy has to do on her own. There is nothing wrong with that. Love allows us to connect to the higher consciousness, but if that love is dependent on a person, so is the connection. Buffy has a chance for real connection. Giles loves her enough to push her to do this. Love doesn't mean always being there. It is also not being there. The higher consciousness loves us enough to push us to do this alone. It is hard, but it is worth it.

Now for the spell. This episode is another to set up Willow's problem, but I will get to that next hiatus. This episode is about how the characters fill up their blank slate. How they interpret the social phenomenon they face.

First thing about Buffy, she is really lost. The transition to the spell is "Sorry. Everybody's sorry. I know that you guys are just trying to help ... but it's just, it's too much. And, and I, I can't take it any more. (tearful) If you guys ... if you guys understood how it felt ... how it feels. It's like I'm dying, it-"

When she comes back, not much of a change. She is the first to wake up and she turns on the light (both symbolic). She pretty much accepts that she doesn't have an identity. She isn't hostile, scared or ready to jump to conclusions. She is just confused.

Her first reaction "It's ok, we'll take care of each other." Her heart shines through even without a memory. Who else is concerned about the others, rather than themselves? Everyone is trying to figure out who they are and Buffy is just trying to get through things.

I loved that she didn't have any ID and picked such a plain name (yet reminded me of Joan of Arc, the most famous Joan). In that whole thing, her concern is still more with Dawn than with herself. Buffy not having a wallet also ties to her lack of grounding in the material. No money, no ATM card, no school ID, nothing.

Dawn and Buffy's connection as sisters was great. First identity of Buffy, Dawn's Sister.

Then Buffy starts to try to solve things. Second identity of Buffy, boss. Or at least that is what Spike labels her. Wrong label. Boss is about control. Buffy isn't trying to control things. She isn't trying to boss others around. She is trying to get things solved. "Well, we need to figure out what's going on. We need to get help."

That was great. Buffy wanted to get help, not just solve things herself. She felt that she couldn't solve things and needed help. She is still fairly centered at this point.

Some great lines after this. "Monsters are real. Did we know this?" She isn't concerned about whether monsters are real, but what their relationship to this is. I also love her interpretation of Slay-her. She is not scared by the monsters but is concerned about this girl they monsters want to harm. That is what forms Buffy's essence, her concern for others (love).

Then she finds out she is a superhero. "Cool!" Her third identity and it solidifies her into a person. She is now more confident and has form. Her world now makes sense...

Until she finds out Randy is a vampire. The other vamps didn't phase her (her reaction to dusting a vamp wasn't quite what it is in Becoming), but Randy causes her to scream and run away. Gotta love her reaction to a vampire with a soul.

She regains herself and fighting begins. She has her identity and can function. Then her memories come flooding back and she goes down. Spell over.

Now for the Spike criticism.

Buffy looses her crutch. What does Spike do? Step in and tries to become the new one. (a lot more on this in Smashed. Spike shippers might want to stay away) THIS ISN'T A GOOD THING PEOPLE!!!!!

You don't get out of the Dark Night with sex or comfort. You don't get out of it by leaning on others. You get out of it by realizing none of that will get you out of it. Bad Spike!!!!

I did love the lack of dialogue in the last part. Words were inadequate and would have cluttered up the feelings. Last show was a musical and this one used music the same way. It was a lot like Becoming Part 2.


An aside that I elaborated on in What is the First thread, the spell messes up because the people involved are all connected and so are the memories of Buffy. Willow cannot isolate one person or memory to erase with such a powerful spell. Magic works by the interconnectedness of everything. This is something Willow doesn't understand. It is like releasing a gas into a room. It will fill the space it has. If you don't want a stinky room, you better only use a tiny amount of gas. Willow thinks she can direct the gas to only be in one corner. It doesn't work that way. Look at the spells that mess up on the show, all the way back to Xander's love spell.
[> [> Re: Tabula Rasa (posted before) -- Malandanza, 07:15:22 03/07/03 Fri

"First thing about Buffy, she is really lost. The transition to the spell is 'Sorry. Everybody's sorry. I know that you guys are just trying to help ... but it's just, it's too much. And, and I, I can't take it any more. (tearful) If you guys ... if you guys understood how it felt ... how it feels. It's like I'm dying, it-'"

I think Willow deserves quite a bit of the blame for Spuffy -- Spike couldn't have seduced Buffy without Willow's intervention here. Buffy is on the verge of a catharsis. She's about to reveal how terrible she's felt since returning to life, how lost she is -- but among friends, who can offer her sympathy and support. We know the Scoobies want to make things better for Buffy -- they never follow through on their plans, but had their idol been reduced to tears in front of them, I have to believe they would have supported her in every way possible. Giles included -- he was leaving because he felt Buffy was using him as a crutch, but he tells Buffy later that
sometimes the most adult thing to do is to ask for help.

When Tabula Rasa ends, not only has Buffy been denied her catharsis, but she gets to experience the loss of heaven all over again (much as Xander experienced King Ralph) except now as she heads to her breakdown, her friends are nowhere to be found. Willow is filled with self-pity, unable to think of anything but herself. Tara is furious with Willow's deceit and is moving out. Giles escapes to England. Dawn is just a child and couldn't offer Buffy much help (especially in her early season "poor me" phase). Xander and Anya are just oblivious -- the only one around is Spike and he has no intention of helping Buffy. He's there to take advantage of her at her weakest moment. To have himself that one good day.

Tabula Rasa is the most important episode for me -- it signals Buffy's transition into darkness. A transition that would have been avoided had it not been for the selfishness of her "best friend" who cast the spell to:

1. Keep herself from feeling guilty about Buffy's suffering
2. "Fix" the relationship with Tara.
[> [> [> Magic as connection -- lunasea, 07:51:24 03/07/03 Fri

A very interesting point.

What really got me thinking is why Willow cast the spell. She was using magic to maintain connections to the two most important people in her life. It was a false connection, rather than a legitimate one. Willow goes even further later in the season, by not doing the spell and getting her fix from Rack.

Magic's danger lies in its artifice. Magic and love are really the same thing and when they are done genuinely, both are helpful. It is vampire/shadow love and dark magic that is causes harm this season.
[> [> my issue with anti-spike -- manwitch, 19:40:56 03/07/03 Fri

My issue with the anti-spike folks is not that I think spike is just the most upstanding young guy, its that I don't see how dispatching him is ultimately the ground for Buffy's success. He's "other" to her, and ultimately her humanity will be measured by her ability to incorprate him (otherness) in her life and her identity. Which doesn't mean they should live happily ever after and have lots of babies.

As I've said before, I think Spike is a symbolic representation of Buffy's psychological obstacle this year. I totally agree with you that he exists to further Buffy's story, not his own, but his role in that this year is a little more significant than in the past. I think ultimately she will have to tell him she loves him, and she will mean it. And I think it will be a good thing people. And I think it won't be a private moment. It will be said in front of Xander and Willow and Woody. And they will recognize that she is saying the right thing. The point won't be that Spike has grown to be worthy of love, but that Buffy has grown to love, whether worthy or not. Love and Forgive.

But I also think, that once Buffy's obstacle is overcome, that which represents it will be superfluous. Personally I think Spike isn't going to make it out the season. I said that after CwDP, and I've seen nothing to change my mind.
[> Smashed (major Spike criticism inside) -- lunasea, 17:26:11 03/06/03 Thu

***WARNING: SEVERE CRITICISM OF SPIKE FOLLOWS***

Back to Spike. Both Buffy and Spike's interpretation of the kiss are partially right and partially wrong. The kiss was precipitated by Buffy loosing Giles, her crutch. However, there is more to it than that. Not what Spike wants there to be, but it is much deeper, which I will get to in the final scene.

Spike can now hit Buffy. Not sure of the literal reason, but the symbolism is there. If Spike is Buffy's shadow, her shadow can now hurt her. Back to Dark Night stuff. The Dark Night is about the burning away of ego. Buffy is pretty identityless now. The ego keeps the shadow sort-of suppressed. Without the ego, the shadow can assert itself. It does when Spike's chip doesn't work on Buffy.

It is a hard part. When we aren't what we thought we are, we start to think that we are what we thought we aren't. That is S6, Spike (and the Trio, even Willow at the end) trying to get Buffy to think she is something that she doesn't think she is. Thing with Dark Night is we aren't what we thought we are nor are we what we think we aren't. That is the only way out. Spike replaces one ego with another.

All Buffy's put downs to Spike are about her own shadow and how she feels about herself on some level. "You're a thing. An evil, disgusting, thing. " Is Buffy a thing? An evil, disgusting, thing? If you really think that, why watch the show? Buffy needs to remove both her ideas that form ego and those that form her shadow. That is what Dark Night is about.

So Spike/shadow goes out to do some harm. Can't. Chip is a nice literary device, but let's go back to the symbolism here. Spike is Buffy. He still has her essence in some twisted level in the form of the chip. Buffy's essence is love. That is why she needs to burn away ego and shadow. They keep her from being that. Buffy's essence/the chip keeps Spike from harming others.

Buffy's interaction with Willow is pretty good too. Lots more symbolism. Willow's problem is her connection to the higher consciousness without realizing it. She thinks it is something she can control, something she does. Buffy's concern mirrors her own concern about herself. As Spike gains control of Buffy, she cares less and less about Willow.

I also like how the Scoobies are turning the fairly mundane crimes of the Trio into supernatural stuff. "Well, is it a, a supernatural diamond? You know, like, healing powers, or, or good-lucky?"

Back to Spike. He takes charge of the Trio to find out what is going on. He is being assertive, something we haven't really seen Spike do in a while. S5 Buffy's ego was in full control and Spike was reduced to stalking and puppy dogging after her. His attempts at manipulation in Crush were met with her blocking him out of her house.

No more. Since Buffy's ego is down, Spike is a big dog again. He is referring to her as "Slayer" rather than Buffy. He is trying to control her.

(We can compare this to Ben/Glory in S5, if anyone wants to)

He orders her to meet him. When she doesn't, he goes to her as big dog. Their phone conversation was great.

Now the abuse really starts. Sorry but the one thing missing from that disgusting exchange was actual love, from the moment he started talking.

First Buffy looks for a rational explanation. Then her Shadow tells her it is her fault, that she is wrong. Depression is anger turned inwards. Spike gives Buffy a way to turn that anger outward and boy does she.

Then we get the we are both freaks part. Thing is, it isn't finding comfort in each other that they are freaks. That wasn't comfort sex. That was angry sex. That was violent sex. That was BAD sex. Forget this women's lib crap that says violent sex is ok, that we are animals deep down and it is ok to be that. BS!!!!!

That was rape. That was power, control and anger. It was just mutual rape. They are angry that they are freaks and they take it out on each other. Buffy's shadow has become her ego and this is NOT A GOOD THING!!!!!!

Back to symbolism, the house falls down around them. Classic imagery. We can even go back to Life Serial. Buffy is trying to build a structure and ends up damaging it. Here she tears it down, badly. We are the house. Standard dream imagery.

Buffy ends up in the basement. BAD PLACE people. That is the underground, the unconscious, a tomb! This isn't going there to be reborn. This is things falling down around you. This is Spike taking her to his world and Buffy going. BAD!!!!!

Buffy needs to get out of the house all together. She doesn't need to build it and she doesn't need to demolish it. She needs to leave it.

Hubby and I had a talk about that scene. Actually he talked, I listened and nodded. Different kinds of sex can be fun. It isn't like true love means missionary position with no passion. However, the earth moved doesn't translate to the house being demolished.

Play violence may be fun, but that wasn't supposed to be play. That was real rage, real anger, real violence. Romanticize it to make it all safe and happy, but that is no different than the kids who wanted to be vampires.

Spike didn't really want to hurt Buffy icon BS!!!! He hurt her on a level more profound than physical boo-boos. He wanted to hurt her. Listen to their exchange. He tried to push every button he could. He wanted to hurt her, like he was hurting. He succeeded.

That wasn't two freaks getting comfort in the night. That was 2 lost souls angry and taking it out on each other. That has a word--RAPE. We didn't witness a tender moment between 2 people that really love each other and were having fun. That was pure rage. THAT WAS BAD!!!!!!

If Spike had stayed away, Buffy wouldn't have fallen into the basement. Her shadow wouldn't have gained control of her. BAD! BAD!! BAD!!!!!
[> [> What does 'mutual rape' mean? -- Tchaikovsky, 02:23:39 03/07/03 Fri

Seems a nonsensical word to attempt to validate your dislike of the relationship to me. Both parties consented in 'Smashed'. It wasn't romantic, and it wasn't healthy. But neither side was forcing themself on the other. Either could have stopped if they had wished.

TCH
[> [> [> OK, understand better after reading your 'Wrecked' section -- Tchaikovsky, 05:02:55 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> The dancing boys -- Malandanza, 04:33:41 03/08/03 Sat

"Back to Spike. Both Buffy and Spike's interpretation of the kiss are partially right and partially wrong. "


I think that Spike's interpretation was far from partially correct. Here's what he had to say to Buffy about the kiss:


SPIKE: You're a tease, Slayer. Know that? Get a fella's motor revvin', let the tension marinate a couple of days, then -bam! Crown yourself the Ice Queen.

BUFFY: (still walking) You need any more metaphors for that li'l mix?

SPIKE: Only a matter of time before you realize. I'm the only one here for you, pet! You got no one else!


Compare that with Amy and the dancing boys:

Ryan and Simon come up.

RYAN: Come on. We're just getting started.

AMY: I'm gonna sit this one out.

SIMON: (laughs) Nuh-uh. You don't get us worked up like that and then just --

He starts pulling her towards the dance floor.

(Smashed)

Buffy is right -- Spike is "awfully fixated on a couple of kisses." He caught her at her lowest point and took advantage of her despair and he's trying to hold her to some implied (implied in Spike's mind, anyway) -- what, exactly? Agreement to have sex with him? She's under some sort of sexual obligation to him? How does that work?

The dancing boys are obviously in the wrong, but they are a strong parallel to Buffy/Spike. Spike is completely out of line at the start of the episode.
[> Wrecked (a bit about Willow) -- lunasea, 17:35:06 03/06/03 Thu

Can't do Wrecked without getting into Willow's problem a bit.

Willow, in a nutshell, has an identity problem. Go back to Restless and you see how she still sees herself. Magic is how Willow fights that identity. She doesn't want to be High School Willow, but feels that is who she is deep down inside. Strong Willow is based on 2 things, her relationship with Tara and magic. She cannot handle when either show weakness.

In "Wrecked" she has lost Tara and after an all-night bender with Amy, she finds the limits of her magic. Her ego needs a boost, enter in Rack. Thing is, when she realizes that she has a problem (because her life is out of control), she breaks down. She is very emotional and gets help.

Now we are going to compare that to Buffy (I know the above is sketchy and not nearly what Willow deserves). I love the editing of this show. They are drawing a parallel between Buffy's problem with Spike and Willow's problem with magic. Thing is, not only are they saying that Buffy's problem is similar to Willow's, but the similarities highlight the difference.

Now I am going to get into serious Spuffy criticism. This is only my opinion based on my own experiences. Your experiences differ, so your interpretation probably does. This is just for another perspective, just a rather passionate one. I hope yours is equally as passionate.

Why does Buffy sleep with Spike? Many interpret it to be her attraction to the dark. If only it were that easy. Sex on BtVS is great and deals with something that few sex scenes do. Let's go back to the first time we see it, Buffy and Angel. Angel looses his soul because of this. Great drama, great plot device, but great statement about sex.

Angel was so lost in the moment of the experience, the fact that The Judge was alive and after them didn't matter. Angel was so lost that he could forget his entire past. Remember broody Angel that most of us love? That Angel couldn't have lost his soul. The Angel that made love to Buffy was 100% there in the moment. Nothing else mattered. He wasn't doing it to forget his past. He was physically expressing how he felt about Buffy. I call it sensual communications. THAT is great sex. Whether that actors pulled it off adequately (I think they did a great job and it is no wonder that SMG went out with DB), that Angel lost his soul states what sort of sex it was.

Buffy's next sex partner is Parker. In the words of Buffy "Parker bad," but Parker shows something important about Buffy. She doesn't do casual sex. Her fire is too intense for her not to confuse casual sex with something deeper. He isn't just a rebound from Angel. Buffy's reaction to that rebound says what kind of woman she is.

Now to Spuffy sex (does anyone really want me to go into Riley sex). When Buffy has sex, she is in the moment. When you are in the moment, you aren't in hell. Buffy doesn't just have fun sex. She completely looses herself in the moment. There is no ego. There are no problems to deal with. There is no past, not future.

That is why Buffy has sex with Spike. It is her way to run from everything that is causing her Dark Night. She isn't running to his or her darkness. She is running from her own Dark Night. I will get more into this in "Gone."

Now for the show. We open with not with Buffy and Spike, but with Dawn and Tara. Dawn is the link that connects the parallels between Willow and Buffy.

But then we get the classic "Morning After scene." Buffy finally notices that the house has fallen down around them. She isn't completely clueless yet. We have Spike thinking it is more than it is and Buffy not able to reduce being able to put her life off for a while longer.

This is why I call it mutual rape. Besides the obvious violence and rage that are present, neither are consenting to what the other is getting out of it. Buffy is using Spike to avoid her Dark Night. Spike is trying to force something between himself and Buffy on a more emotional level. That is rape, non-consensual sex. Poor Spike is confusing Buffy's inability to say no with something more (but so do some in the audience).

We get Buffy trying to go home, because of Dawn, and Spike won't let her. Spike, representative of her desire for escape and shadow, vs Dawn, representative of her mundane responsibilities and ego. We get into the meat of the conflict here. Buffy almost gives into the escape and shadow. Her Dark Night is going to be a doozie.

Spike makes a major mistake by confusing her feelings for Angel with "vampires get you hot." As shadow, Spike is trying to paint everything as bad. That isn't Buffy. At this point, Buffy can still walk away though and she does. When Spike tries to drag down the beauty that is Angel and Buffy's relationship, she decides not to escape, if escape means that.

Now I am going to go on about Angel and Buffy (feel free to gag if you need to). Angel and Buffy are true love. When you loose yourself in True love, you really do get to heaven. What made Buffy and Angel so hard was when they couldn't be together that was hell. The curse ripped her from Heaven before she even died. This cannot be touched. It is pure and beautiful and it is Buffy's link to heaven. Everytime someone tries, it will snap some sense into her. Have to see how that plays out S7.

Back to the show. We have both Willow and Buffy needing sleep during the day, hallmark of playing in the dark (Buffy is playing in the dark because that is where her convenient escape is. If she had a nooner, she would do that instead). When you play in the dark, you don't get to be in the light. Dawn is left alone as both women head for bed. Dawn is the light, even her name.

Then we get the pretty obvious scene doing research at the Magic Box. First Buffy is trying to keep them on the practical matter of finding the diamond monster rather than the emotional world of the wedding. Watch the interplay of wedding talk throughout this season. Buffy is running from emotions. See how this plays out in regards to the wedding, the height of emotion. She briefly enters the talk, when wearing larvae becomes an issue, a practical matter in the midst of the emotional wedding that involves her.

Back to research. The cannot find anything. Alternatives are brought up, but Buffy is doing her avoidance dance and no Spike and no "distractions." She is just running from things. First she used Spike to run from not feeling and life and not she is running from that. She knows on some level that none of this is going to help, but she still tries it out.

Then we get into talk about "Willow." Not everything on the show can bs subtle and subtexts. This does show how her state of mind is affecting her interpretation of things (which goes back to the class talk in Life Serial). She is also trying to convince herself about her ability to stop seeing Spike. Even at this point, with a few kisses and one night of sex and forgetting, she realizes the temptation for escape is great. She isn't completely oblivious yet.

We get Rack, who speeds up Willow's magic, just like Spike speeds up what Buffy has to deal with. Neither is actually helping and is in it for their own gratification. Magical abilities have to grow slow for a reason. Same thing with dealing with our shadow.

Buffy finds Amy in the house. Amy, Willow and Buffy are three variations on the theme of ego. Amy looses her ego being a rat and regains it. Her way of dealing with this is Rack. Willow is trying so hard not to be a particular ego, high school Willow. She deals with this with Rack, but when she discovers she has a problem, she is very emotional and gets help. Buffy has no ego. When she discovers she has a problem, she has nothing that can get her out of it. She doesn't get emotional. She doesn't get help.

This episode sets up Willow's problem, but it also shows Willow crashing (which sounds too close to smashed and crush) AND getting help. Buffy, who is in the same boat, hasn't crashed and doesn't get help. We will watch Willow battle her demons and Buffy fuck hers.

One thing I like about Spike is he knows everything about the underworld. Angel's speciality is in demon lore and Spike's is more in the current underworld. When Buffy said Rack, he knew what she was talking about. Angel is more like the books and Giles and Spike is more like Buffy, the Hand out in the street. Doesn't mean they are compatible, though. A couple should be someone who fills gaps. Spike doesn't do this (a compliment for Spike and a criticism of Spuffy)

Spike and Buffy's relationship has changed. He is back to calling her Slayer again. He, being the shadow, wants to see her shadow, her dark side. He doesn't acknowledge her as the light she is. Instead he thinks he understands her; that she belongs in the dark, that he knows what she tastes like, that she likes to play in the dirt, that she craves him (rather than the escape he offers). He cannot love her because he doesn't see all of her. Only someone with a soul can. He wants her darkness. She is much more than that.

That is also why his interpretations only are partially correct. He sees the darkness in people, what they are hiding from themselves. That is rather perceptive, but he doesn't see the other parts. As such, his observations aren't complete. He can give them a piece they don't have, but they need to take the rest of them into account to understand it.

Willow crashes, Dawn's in trouble (and screams), Buffy goes into a certain mode and ego is reestablished temporarily. With Dark Night it is only temporary. You know it is a sham and eventually, things will fall apart again. But at the end, Buffy assumes, Slayer, loving sister and good friend mantles again.

With this, she is able to temporarily resist Spike. This is symbolized by Spike walking off with Dawn and Buffy staying behind with Willow. Then we get the double conversation between Buffy and Willow. We end with Willow sweating out her addiction and Buffy in a position we aren't used to seeing her in, scared shitless. Willow has admitted her problems to another human being (think 12 steps). Buffy hasn't. Buffy is in trouble.

And we finally get a show that doesn't end with them kissing, but what an ending. The alternative to kissing is Buffy feeling scared about kissing. Poor Buffy.
[> [> Really feel the need to compliment you -- KdS, 06:23:14 03/07/03 Fri

He, being the shadow, wants to see her shadow, her dark side. He doesn't acknowledge her as the light she is. Instead he thinks he understands her; that she belongs in the dark, that he knows what she tastes like, that she likes to play in the dirt, that she craves him (rather than the escape he offers). He cannot love her because he doesn't see all of her. Only someone with a soul can. He wants her darkness. She is much more than that.

That is also why his interpretations only are partially correct. He sees the darkness in people, what they are hiding from themselves. That is rather perceptive, but he doesn't see the other parts. As such, his observations aren't complete. He can give them a piece they don't have, but they need to take the rest of them into account to understand it.

I must admit, I don't share your idealisation of the Buffy/Angel relationship - but this is the summation of my own opinion of S6 Spike that I wish I'd been articulate enough to come up with.
[> [> [> Thanks. I'm sure after I do my post on Spike, people won't find me so irrational any more. -- lunasea, 06:34:14 03/07/03 Fri

[> Gone -- lunasea, 17:42:32 03/06/03 Thu

Now for Gone. Who hasn't felt invisible? Contrast Buffy's reaction to being invisible with Marcie's in "Invisible Girl." Sure with no ego, you feel invisible, that is pretty obvious symbolism, much like what happens to Buffy in "Life Serial." What makes this episode great is her reaction to it.

In the Dark Night, we want to get back to the formless freedom. Being invisible was close to this. Buffy revelled in it. She wasn't upset. She already felt like a non-entity. Now her visible status reflected it. Instead of feeling like something bad happened to her, she took advantage of it. It was the closest she has been to happy this entire season. How it ends reflects this.

The show opens with Buffy getting rid of anything mystical. She is doing it for Willow, but it symbolizes her letting go of it also. Dawn is not happy about this, but Buffy really has no problem. Not just because it helps Willow, but because it doesn't mean anything to her.

That is until she finds Spike's lighter. She manages to get rid of things that even belongs to her mother, but Spike's lighter doesn't go into the box, as we find out later. So we have a big box of mystical stuff. What does this box do? Gets Buffy in trouble with the Social Worker who thinks that it contains less-than-wholesome stuff and represents a threat to Dawn. The Social has no idea how right she is.

Yet another breakfast scene. Breakfast, the threshold between night and day. A family gathering together to break fast. Watch how it is used this season and even S7. Instead of showing family closeness, it highlights the disconnectedness among the characters. In Wrecked we get it to underscore Dawn being abandoned by Willow and Buffy.

In Gone we get it to show Dawn's reaction to what happened in Wrecked. Buffy is being lumped together with Willow as bad guy. Why not? Buffy has no identity of her own. Why not piggy back her onto Willow? This disconnectedness is punctuated by the visit from the Social Worker.

But first we get treated to more Spike. He comes for his lighter, his fire maker. Buffy's love is bright like the fire. He ventures out into the day (and risks personal harm) in order to get *his* lighter back.

We are saved from having to watch them screw in the kitchen (which some may not consider being saved) by Xander. Think of Xander's role in Grave, he connects Willow back to her humanity. Same thing with his role and Buffy. He brings Dawn into the picture and what is good about her life, thus allowing Buffy to resist Spike.

In enters the Social Worker. Poor Buffy. She has to present an ego to this woman in order to keep Dawn and she doesn't have one. Time has such little meaning for Buffy, that she doesn't realize it is Wednesday.

We get Spike screwing with Buffy's mundane life, AGAIN. He doesn't mean to. He tries to help, but he is so out of place he doesn't know how and ends up mucking things up. The blanket was a great touch. Spike sleeping with Buffy is messing her up and it is one of the things that go into the negative perception the Social Worker is forming.

Then the Social Worker catches Buffy in a small lie, Dawn and Buffy don't live alone. We have Dawn being tardy, magic weed, Spike and lying, unemployment--all things that go to the negative impression the Social Worker gets and all things symbolic of things that are messing up Buffy.

Spike didn't leave (there is a surprise). He doesn't do his usual physical "manipulation" of her, like he did in the kitchen. Instead he just takes his lighter, his fire maker.

I LOVED the hair cutting scene. Done that myself. It is precipitated by Spike's comments about her hair. She is trying for a change and she wants to be less attractive to him. What is super great is that her friends, the light, absolutely love it. It also pokes fun of the fans that comment about this or that character's hair. Have to love a show that does that.

Thing is altering our physical appearance may be a temporary pick-me-up, but it is only temporary. Spike doesn't exactly hate Buffy after this. Then she gets the ultimate alteration of her physical appearance, she goes invisible.

Great transition with the wedding tables. More emotional talk. Where is Buffy? Same table as Xander's family. Makes a humorous bit, but Xander's family is rather disfunctional. That is where Buffy is, but Xander doesn't want her to be. He loves her.

Great mention of Invisible Girl to remind us why Buffy went invisible and how her reaction is different. I liked that Anya was supportive (the hair comments) even though Buffy was invisible. She may have lost her visibility, but not the support of her friends.

Then Buffy goes out for some fun. Loved the fashion police and playing with the meter man. Seemed to be a bit non-by-the-books Buffy. With invisibility came a tremendous freedom.

She goes to fix things with social services. Not totally nice Buffy. Really funny and gets the job done. She is trying to make the Social Worker a little loopy, just like she is. The reference to "The Shining" is great, but not a movie I have ever (or will ever) seen. I am sure someone else could go into the reference/the movie, besides it shows how nuts she is.

So now we have to be subjected to another Spike sex scene, minus SMG. Her line was great "I told you ... stop trying to see me." He cannot see her, so he has no power on her this time. She is the one in control. She can forget about things for a while and it isn't real, since he cannot see her. She isn't really there.

I did like that he recognized her touch, even if she was invisible. At least he knows her that much.

Then we find out that invisibility has a price, a high price, a pudding price. Buffy's non-existant ego isn't without drawbacks. It will give her the ultimate formlessness, if it continues.

Back to Spuffy sex, this time without the benefit of SMG. Xander interrupts again (just call him interupto man. He does that a lot when it comes to Spuffy. I like Xander). Spike's words this time are dead on. Buffy has given up on ego and is playing with shadow now. He is good with shadow. She need to give up both to end her Dark Night.

Spike says, "You need to go. Get dressed if you can find your clothes, and push off. 'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather-" but this time the tables are turned and Buffy "manipulates" Spike. This time we don't have to see it.

Buffy goes home, upset that her escape mechanism wants more. If he knew her, he would know she doesn't want more. If he was soooo like her, he wouldn't want more. Dynamics have changed a bit after this episode.

She is home later than she is supposed to be. Dawn is supposed to come home right after school and doesn't. More neglect of mundane life for her escape with Spike. Dawn doesn't like Buffy invisible. Buffy thinks it is a hoot and it freaks Dawn out. Dawn=light. Light not liking all this license. It isn't freedom. Buffy went from freedom to license. She played with people and went for her escape. NOT GOOD.

Then she finds out the price of invisibility and isn't so happy any more. Ego doesn't want to die. Dawn's last words are "How can I talk to you if I can't see you?" It is a real fear in Dark Night. You don't want to give up Ego because if you do, how do you relate to others? People really don't talk to each other, they talk to images they have of others. I talk to other PTA mom's or enlisted wives or my husband/kids father. We cannot grasp the entirety of another's personality or how changing they are, so we end up talking to how we see them. Dark Night shows us that we are just talking to an image and we don't know how to relate to that.

Then there are the little bads of S6, the Trio. Aren't they cute? They think the are super-villians, and all bad. We know better. Their ego is what does them in (much as Willow's does at the end). There is stuff I could say here, but the other stuff I've said is more interesting.

I love Willow's reaction. The very first thing is about Buffy's hair, something that *really* doesn't matter. At the very end, they do talk about something that does matter. They connect and they both have made an important step. For Buffy, it is she doesn't want to die any more. She went to see Spike that day, so how much of a step is it?

Still, she realized that being invisible didn't solve her problems. That is what Dark Night is about, figuring out what doesn't solve our problems.
[> [> Re: Gone -- Celebaelin, 10:23:04 03/07/03 Fri

I did like that he recognized her touch, even if she was invisible. At least he knows her that much.

I interpreted that as Buffy doing something so intimate, and so familiar, that it couldn't be anyone/anything else. I suppose this is similar to your comment but with a different emphasis I think, especially in the context of your interpretation of the sexual metaphors of the 'demon' in DMP wrt Buffy.
[> Doublemeat Palace -- lunasea, 17:54:46 03/06/03 Thu

Written by my favorite writer (tied with Joss, of course. Marti is third), but probably my least favorite episode. This time around, I tried to see what Jane was trying to do.

Basically, I think its major problem is it didn't really advance the story or show us anything new about the characters. It was symbolic and all, but that was about it. It was well crafted, in terms of how things interlinked and paralleled each other. Not something I really would watch again and again. Pretty much every other episode Jane has penned I have watched so many times, I have them memorized.

I tried to take this in context with the other 3 excellent shows she wrote S6. How many writers get to write 3 episodes in a row (Hint, none), let alone at the beginning of the season? She set up the stuff in S5 that leads to S6 also. If anyone understands this stuff, it is Jane Espenson.

She set up the theme of this season and it should show in this middle episode. It does, but other stuff has been put on top of it by then and the audience wants that stuff advanced too.

One thing that is notably missing is the Trio. She is even the one that sets up Warren with "I Was Made To Love You" back in S5. She wrote Jonathan into a bigger character in "Earshot." She does "Flooded" and "Life Serial," which further sets up the Little Bads for S6. They aren't in DoubleMeat Palace. That in of itself is pretty telling.

The Trio are torturing Buffy with their twists on reality that mirror how she feels. In DoubleMeat Palace, they aren't required. Life itself tortures Buffy, without the twists being needed.

The show is really 2, in regards to Buffy. We have a painful demonstration of Buffy trying to get along in the mundane world and then towards the end, we have a demon thrown in. It might have been a better show without this. Great symbolism, but the first part gets lost in it. The first part is the important part.

It is easy to dismiss Buffy being miserable working at the DMP. Who wouldn't be? Look at everyone around her. However, she doesn't start out that way. We almost see happy Buffy again towards the beginning. She even makes jokes. We watch her deteriorate as the show progresses. This show, in the middle of the season, is a recap of Buffy getting more and more depressed, feeling more and more different, being able to cope less and less, becoming more and more resolved to her life of drudgery.

But notice the pins the managers wear. At the beginning, the male manager wants her to aim for 10 years. At the end, the female manager wants her to aim for 5 years. This show is not only about the deterioration of Buffy, but shows the beginnings of her recovery. The season can be divided by this episode.

Now onto specific comment about the show.

First an aside about the Trio. The Little Bads mirror the Big Bads. The Big Bad is Willow. In the opening of the show, the gang talks about what the "lair" was like, nerd central. That is what Willow is fighting, her image of herself as high school/nerd Willow.

Whole lot of symbolism in this episode. I don't really feel like getting into all of it, but I will hit on the highlights:

DoubleMeat Medley: Chicken and Cow together, two things that are mismatched and not normally together. How do they get together-- massive slaughter. Buffy is a DoubleMeat Patty.

The grinder: figures fairly heavily into this show, but Buffy never actually works it. She is not in control of the mixing. Willow is the one that puts the demon in the grinder. Buffy is paralyzed, but it is wearing off.

The DoubleMeat Patty is actually vegetable: It isn't what it appears to be. It is flavored with what it is supposed to be. Few know this and it is a secret that must be kept for people's peace of mind. Again, this is Buffy.

More about the "Secret Ingredient": It is a process, not an actual thing, or so Buffy is told repeatedly. It isn't something that she can put her finger on. That is until she investigates and finds out what it is. This episode really shows the beginnings of Buffy's recovery.

The Locker: It is available, since no one is using it, but it is still full. Like Buffy. She doesn't feel there, but she is still full of the previous ego's contents. She can either "toss it, or keep what you want."

We get the wonderful world of fast food, where everything is homogized and you are part of a team. Buffy is an individual and doesn't feel part of anything. In prior episodes, Buffy was the odd one out because of her depression. In this episode, it is her sunny disposition that makes her different.

The show starts off with a video that is trying to make homogenized people. Manny the manager, not a joke, is trying to continue this process. He gets her to say that she is there to be part of the team. Contrast this with "Anne." She is giving in.

We have a place with high turnover. We find out that is a cover for a demon smogasboard, but fast food does have a high turnover rate. People get tired of it and move on to better things. Buffy is doing this herself. She is finding out what doesn't work and moving on.

Buffy tries so hard throughout the episode to maintain her outlook. The people are people, individuals. She is concerned about them when she thinks something is happening to them.

Buffy's friends come to support her. Anya can only talk about the wedding (like what Bride has anything else on her mind). She tries to get them to support her theory that something weird is going on. They don't agree "I think you're seeing demons where there's just life." Buffy ends up being right. Not sure if I agree with this. Then again, it goes with the recovery part to the show. We could probably talk about if the demon at the end added or detracted from the show. I could go either way. I do understand about the genre they are dealing with.

After her friends come, then of course, Spike shows up. Buffy is going to take a break, when Spike's presences prevents her. He has some great lines, as usual. Buffy was cracking jokes earlier, even the moment before Spike showed up. Now Spike is the one cracking them and Buffy goes all serious. The dynamics of that scene were great. Spike starts off being a wise ass and insulting her. Then he switches into trying to take care of her. Just how these two actors/characters play off of each other is fun to watch.

Just keep in mind that Spike is Buffy's shadow. He is pelting her with self-doubt. He is that voice we all have in us (that usually sounds like our parents) that says our ego is wrong. Thing is, he isn't completely right either.

More DM talk. Lots of symbolism.

Hallie is in the episode. Why this one? Hallie is casting the same sort of doubts in Anya that Spike is doing to Buffy. Anya's character is interesting in that she used to be shadow and now thinks herself as ego, but isn't really. She isn't much of anything.

Buffy goes for a "break" and that involves Spike. Spike is Buffy's break, but it sure doesn't look remotely enjoyable, at least for Buffy. It isn't just the nature of it, but the look on her face. This episode is a turning point.

Cut to Amy and Willow. Not going to go into Willow, but what happens mirrors Buffy and Spike sex in an alley. Spike gives Buffy her fix, but just like it didn't help Willow get high, it didn't help Buffy.

We get The DoubleMeat Medley may be human. Buffy is the DMM. She is worried about not being what she is supposed to be. Turns out it isn't something it is supposed to be, but at least it isn't human. Vegetables are actually better for you. Who Buffy is (love) is actually better than human ego. She will find this out (eventually, I hope). She is love flavored.

Willow is using chemistry, not magic this time. Buffy relies on the mundane world of DMP in order to get money, rather than Spike.

Then we get a demon, something Buffy knows. Thing is, it paralyzes her, even biting her right shoulder (right =conscious, ego). Willow has to save her. We get Willow confessing about being juiced and how hard it was, still don't get Buffy confessing about Spike.

Buffy takes her knowledge of the "secret ingredient" (see above) and parlays that into a way to get along in the mundane world. She doesn't use it to take advantage of the DMP, but to find a way to work, to fit in.

The episode ends with Buffy accepting her mundane reality, rather than with Spuffy crap.

It was an interesting show if you watch the change in Buffy throughout the episode. The show is important not just in what is shows, but what it doesn't.
[> [> Re: Doublemeat Palace -- Celebaelin, 10:40:53 03/07/03 Fri

Do you think Buffy requiring Willow's help to stop the demon from devouring her works well in parallel with Willow needing Buffy's help to stop the magic from 'devouring' her? IMO The mutual support re-enforces the closeness of the Buffy - Willow friendship and prevents Buffy from being lost in the depressing, sleazy, lucklustre, reality of her life as demon-fodder on subsistence level wages.

Both characters are more than their current circumstances will allow and they must (and seemingly do) encourage each other to hold on to this fact rather than forget or deny it.
[> [> [> I agree (speculation for S7 based on Selfless) -- lunasea, 11:02:39 03/07/03 Fri

In Selfless we were teased by Willow telling Buffy that she never told Xander to tell her to "kick his ass." That comment was very important in the Buffy-Willow relationship. It was the first time that Buffy didn't feel that Willow was supporting her feelings. If Buffy didn't think that Willow was against her, she might have opened up to her and maybe even not run away.

One thing Buffy has to learn this season is that even when she makes these hard decisions, they do take their tole on her emotionally and she has to talk about these things. Buffy admited S3 that it was Angel she sent to hell and it made her feel better. Now she needs to admit that "kick his ass" hurt her, especially coming from Willow. To deal with her superiority complex, she will have to admit how these decisions affect her.

If she does manage to bring this up, she will find out that Willow is a lot more supportive than she thought. It will be good for both of them and their relationship.

There are 4 keys to beating the First: The friendship of Willow, the familial love of Dawn, the true love of Angel (whether they are together or not) and the general love of humanity (represented by Spike). I have a feeling that the final 5 episode arc will deal with acknowledging each of these to give Buffy an incredible strength.
[> [> [> [> Like that a lot -- Celebaelin, 23:48:43 03/07/03 Fri

[> Dead Things (really long and major Spuffy criticism) -- lunasea, 18:06:07 03/06/03 Thu

Written by another excellent writer, Steven DeKnight (no wonder he got every other Angelus episode). His perspective differs a bit from Jane's. His symbolism rests more on how something is done rather than objects themselves. He got 3 episodes S6, so he is important to this arc and does understand it well.

First thing, anyone who sees this episode and still is a Spuffy shipper, you are sick and should consider getting psychological counseling (just kidding. People really shouldn't take half of what I say seriously. Most of it is just blowing off steam)

Warned you there was severe Spuffy criticism. This episode gets a lot of that. If you don't want to see that, I suggest not reading any further.

This episode is Spike/Buffy's shadow really trying to manipulate/control Buffy. This culminates in "Seeing Red," written by the same writer. The other episode Steven writes is "All the Way" the episode that highlights how special Angel and Buffy are. Then we get this episode and finally Seeing Red.

Before I continue with the specifics of this episode, I want to digress into Dawn. Buffy is torn between her need for escape with Spike and her need to be protector to Dawn. Dawn is the light, hope. Not only does Buffy feel pulled towards Dawn, but Dawn rejects Buffy, repeatedly. If Dawn had not done this, even Spike wouldn't have pulled Buffy down so low. It is Dawn rejection coupled with Spike that causes Buffy to Spiral (another episode Steven wrote) down.

Steven is very good at writing about the connection between Dawn and Buffy and how this is important to her. If Dawn is remotely watchable prior to S7, it is in his episodes. It isn't in her character, but in Buffy's interaction with her, that Dawn lies.

Buffy is rejected by Dawn and rejects Spike. She neither belongs in the light or the dark. That is the Dark Night of the Soul, to bring it back to the topic of this thread. When it comes to Dawn, Buffy needs a revelation similar to Angels. She need to learn that it doesn't matter if your kids reject you (teens tend to do that any way). You still love them and still need to be there for them. How they act shouldn't determine how you act.

Now onto the show.

We open with Spuffy sex. Spike and Buffy actually start to connect. Then Spike has to ruin it. He always does. He did it by saying she had a thing for vampires, earlier. He tries to take something beautiful, something that exists in the light, and bring it into the dirt and dark with him.

That is what Spike tries to do. He takes the light, like Buffy, and tries to taint it so that he can bring it into the dark. That is what this episode is all about.

In the pillow talk, he screws up and calls Buffy an animal. She recovers from this by wanting to go back to Dawn, to the light. Spike decides to test her, does she trust him?

That was the button that Buffy tried to push when she wanted to hurt Angel in "Sanctuary." (following both shows really does add another level). She says that it is different with Riley because she can trust Riley. Buffy has trusted Angel with more than anyone, including Spike. She probably told Angel about heaven when they met off-screen. She told him about Spordelia and "probably." Angel knows that Buffy trusts him and doesn't let things end like that. He knows she is lashing out and that is something he understands.

But what about Spike? Buffy is damned either way. If she doesn't trust, she is using him. If she does, she is giving into the darkness. Now it is Spike's turn. He gives her a chance to say that she isn't using him. If she trusts him, there is something there. That is what Spike wants, but for Buffy, it turns the shadow into the ego. That won't help her. She has to burn away shadow and ego. Spike just thinks she needs to exchange them. Bad Spike.

The Trio is back, with a cerebral dampener. How do you think Buffy's Dark Night makes her feel? Warren has a sexbot and built the Buffybot for Spike. He uses the cerebral dampener to turn the object of his affections into his sex slave. Spike uses Buffy's Dark Night the same way.

The demons and villans reflect the main characters. They aren't randomly written. The shows are carefully crafted. That is what separates them from B-movies, even when they are doing B-movies.

Warren kills Katrina when she tried to get away. Not on purpose, but he wasn't going to let her leave. Steven De Knight wrote "Seeing Red." Warren's actions are foreshadowing Spike's. Steven wrote episodes 6.06, 6.13, and 6.19. He was setting up something specific with his episodes that logically culminates in Seeing Red. ME didn't manufacture the rape to make Spike unappealing. Dead Things did that.

We see Buffy at the DMP and she is fitting in with her own spin. It is nice to see happy Buffy again. Buffy is on the upswing.

Tara comes in to help Buffy. We get some Tara/Willow stuff, but the important part is Buffy wanting to find out if she came back normal. Remember the DoubleMeat Medley, not what it seems like. Buffy has come up enough to be able to question if she is ok.

In this episode she tells Tara, another human being, not only that Spike can hit her, but that she has been sleeping with him and they do not-so-good things. In this episode, Spike looses his hold on Buffy and he reacts to this.

Great line: "Oh, time has no meaning here." Time has no meaning in the Dark Night and it will have no time if she finds her way out of it. Time isn't real. It is a human construct. It only has meaning to those concerned with the past or the future. Buffy throughout the season has similar lines. The Trio's demons often have to do with time, as they do in this episode.

The parallels between Warren (and Katrina) and Spike (and Buffy) are pretty obvious. Warren likes the entire package of Katrina. He isn't just interested in her beauty, that is that how it was in "I Was Made To Love You." In "Dead Things" he is content to have his sex slave and is willing to give her to Andrew and Jonathan after he is done.

Katrina wants nothing to do with Warren and Buffy wants nothing to do with Spike. Neither guy accepts this and manipulates their woman to get what they want. Katrina even thinks that Warren is beneath her and that she lowered herself by being with him.

The switch in Katrina, caused by the cerebral dampener, mirrors the change Buffy has had because of her Dark Night. When the cerebral dampener doesn't work and it doesn't have the juice to be activated again, we are foreshadowing what will happen to Buffy. Eventually the Dark Night brightens (with the Dawn) and when it happens Spike will not be able to control Buffy.

We get Dawn rejecting Buffy, but at least Buffy doesn't go to Spike. She goes to the Bronze for frosty nectar. That is an improvement. Willow and Buffy aren't quite with the fun Xander and Anya are having, but at least Willow does try. Buffy hasn't come far enough to actually get out on the dance floor. But it is a start. The recovery that started in DMP is continuing. It isn't easy, especially with Dawn rejecting her, but it is coming along.

Since Buffy didn't go to Spike. Spike came to Buffy. Did anyone else get the impression that Spike wasn't actually there and it was all imagined in Buffy's head? That scene between them was the best out of all their interactions. It really showed what was going on. Depending on what Steven writes this year, he may become my 3rd favorite writer (and so far he is doing great, but now he is competing with Mere and Tim). He is incredibly talented.

After that scene on the balcony at the Bronze (whenever someone goes up there, I want to scream "don't!" Good things don't happen there) how can anyone be a Spuffy shipper? Bad Spike. Bad Shadow.

Next time we see Buffy, it is again at night. As she went into her Dark Night, we got less day scenes. As she comes out of it, we will get more. BtVS isn't exactly a day show, but the play of day and night are very important to the show. Willow's scene with Tara was in the day. That cuts to Buffy at night in the cemetary.

Yeah Buffy!!!!! She didn't go into Spike's crypt. She went to it, but didn't go in. She is making progress. We get an incredibly well done scene with the Rwasundi. I pretty much already talked about the symbolism here.

One thing to add. Buffy ran off, leaving Spike to fight the Rwasundi. He is even straddling a demon. Buffy runs off to see what happened to Katrina. She is concerned with the human. When she thinks she has killed her, it destroys her (plot hole. Spike should have noticed she had been dead for a while). This shows that Buffy is leaving the shadow and is more concerned with other things. Spike is loosing his hold on her.

We get another well done dream sequence. ME does dreams better than anyone else. I loved how the handcuffs figured into the dream. Just as the handcuffs were about trust, so is this dream. If Buffy doesn't turn herself in, she cannot trust herself.

Start with Spike, actually in her bed. He is invading her personal space. She cannot trust him enough to think that he will not to do this. (she is right) A secret between them is about trust. You trust someone not to reveal it. She knows she can trust Spike on that level and so in her dream gives in to him.

Next we go to Spike's crypt. She gave into Spike in her bedroom, so now they have descended to the shadow again. This time Spike is in handcuffs, showing how much he trusts her.

This is followed by the fighting in the forest. This time Katrina is handcuffed. Katrina stands for humanity. The slayer is to protect humanity and in some way we trust that.

We get some sex stuff which ends with Buffy staking Spike. Katrina and Spike are being intercut in the dream. There is other symbolism, but that is the gist. It isn't just the symbolism, but how they lead to each other that is important to this dream. That is how Steven writes. Jane's and even Joss' tend to stand more on their own. The meat of Steven's symbolism is more dynamic.

Buffy talks to Dawn and Dawn rejects her. She feels rejected by Buffy. We get the light talking about the Dark Night. "Then go! You're not really here anyway. " If we aren't here, people don't know how to relate to us. If we aren't here, we might as well be gone. That is why ego fights so hard and the Dark Night is so hard to get out of.

Then the Shadow/Spike weighs in. He is only concerned with Buffy. He tries, unsuccesfully (as Spike tends to be), to hide the evidence. He doesn't want her to go either. Both Ego and Shadow are fighting what Buffy knows to be right. She is not only able to resist the Shadow, but beats him up. Then she can do what she knows is right.

(Spike gives anger an outward focus, so Buffy's depression translates to Spike's bruised face)

Spike thinks this moment is like when Luke faces the Emperor "If you strike me down, your trip to the Dark Side will be complete." He still doesn't see Buffy's light. He cannot love her, if he cannot see her. He doesn't understand why killing Katrina kills Buffy inside. He doesn't understand why being with him is killing her.

Buffy barely does herself, as evidenced by her exchange with Tara. It is easier to think that she came back wrong than to see why she is doing what she does. Coming back wrong is something she could deal with. The Dark Night isn't.

When I started it, I figured it was standard mental illness. That was something that could be handled. That was something that could be fixed. It was trying to fix it that prolonged it. What made the Dawn come was just accepting, everything. It was not trying anymore. I was so scared that if I stopped trying, I would get worse. When I did stop, I got better, a whole lot better, completely better. It wasn't a process either. It was like the snap of fingers.

Poor Buffy. Her entire self-image is blown. Now what does she have? If it is OK to abuse Spike, her world view is blown. She has nothing. Her focus is on trying to get out and the more she focuses on that, the more she can't get out. She doesn't want to be forgiven, because she knows it won't work and if that doesn't work, what will. As long as no one forgives her, she has hope that forgiveness will work.

I see that with a lot of people. They would rather blame someone, anyone, than just be the loving individuals they are. When we see "injustice" we have to get upset. It keeps our world view safe. Even if the world isn't safe, there are judgment rules that give it order. If bad things happen to good people, that is unfair. The unfair makes it neat and tidy. Our anger feeds this order.

Will get into this a lot more with Grave.
[> [> Wasn't going to get into this but... -- ponygirl, 08:47:31 03/07/03 Fri

I always have to step up the plate for Dead Things, it's an episode that no matter how many times I watch I always end up with my mouth open in shock and awe.

As you point out, for the whole first half of the episode we're set up to see connections between Buffy/Katrina and Spike/Warren, but then something really remarkable happens. The way I see it with Buffy's dream all these connections get reversed. The parallel instead becomes Spike/Katrina (Katrina at this point is only a Victim in Buffy's mind). It's not just that the two characters are intercut in the dream, they are meant to be seen as the same. They are seen in the same positions, Buffy raises the stake to strike Spike but it is Katrina who is staked.

To me it seems that Buffy had wanted to see herself as the victim. She was passive, things were being done to her. With the dream Buffy realizes that this is not so, that she bears responsiblity, and that the lines between victim/agressor, dominant/submissive, and light/shadow are far more blurred.

When she wakes up her immediate desire is to seek punishment, her belief in her own wrongness at this point seems to give her an almost comforting clarity. I would agree that Spike's motivations for trying to stop Buffy were selfish, and suggest that Dawn's were as well, but I would say that as much as Buffy felt she was doing the right thing in turning herself in, it was largely due to her desire to be punished. In taking responsibility for her actions she sought to surrender it again, if that makes any sense, to turn herself over to a larger authority to be judged. Of course the last unexpected twist in this very twisty episode is that Buffy gets what she least wanted, no judgement just forgiveness.
[> [> [> Good post! -- Rahael, 09:04:01 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> Interesting -- lunasea, 09:15:46 03/07/03 Fri

I agree with much of what you say, but
The parallel instead becomes Spike/Katrina (Katrina at this point is only a Victim in Buffy's mind). It's not just that the two characters are intercut in the dream, they are meant to be seen as the same. They are seen in the same positions, Buffy raises the stake to strike Spike but it is Katrina who is staked.

Means that Buffy sees Spike as a victim of what she is doing. how does that jive with beating him up outside the police station?

I saw it as what she was doing with Spike was interfering with how she treated others. She raised the stake to kill Spike, but instead ended up killing the innocent. (rather than victim, Katrina was an innocent). Because Buffy has been playing with Spike, she missed what was going on with Willow and Dawn. It was more that what she has been doing with Spike hasn't been an escape and it did have serious ramifications.

I don't think that she saw herself as the victim, so much as outside the realm of consequences. That was the only way she could do what she was doing. If there were consequences, she would have stopped. Buffy has too big a heart to hurt others.

When she turned herself in, it was her way of saying things do have consequences. Spike tried to stop her saying they didn't have to. He had been doing that all along with their relationship.

Riley, in AYW is really the one that shows her that things don't necessarily have to have consequences. That playing with Spike in the Dark didn't touch her.

In those two episodes we saw that actions have consequences, but that they don't have to change the actor.
[> [> [> [> Re: Interesting -- ponygirl, 09:44:57 03/07/03 Fri

"Means that Buffy sees Spike as a victim of what she is doing. how does that jive with beating him up outside the police station?"

Again I think the real key to Dead Things is Buffy's desire for punishment. In the course of the episode she comes to see that *she* is actually the one hurting other people - Katrina, Spike, Dawn (though Buffy fails to realize how she is hurting Dawn, Buffy thinks removing herself will solve the problem, the problem is actually her absence). When Spike confronts her the alley, the parallels to Who Are You, where Faith literally beat herself up, leap to mind. I took everything that Buffy said to Spike, every blow, as directed at herself. When she pulls back her horror is having done it *again* - hurt someone who didn't deserve it (and whatever one might say about Spike's actions in DT or previously I'd think most would agree the beating went way beyond what the situation may have called for) - Spike's words only confirm this. It strengthens Buffy's resolve that she must be put away, that she cannot trust herself in the world.
[> [> Re: Dead Things -- Celebaelin, 01:00:03 03/08/03 Sat

I'm not sure if you are deliberately inviting this comment or deliberately avoiding it, however at the risk of being obvious in an extrapolation of your ego and shadow theme...

In Jung's interpretation of The Rosarium Philosophorum (The Philosophers' Rose Garden) there is a depiction of the King and Queen (Sun and Moon, Brother and Sister, Animus and Anima, Ego and Shadow) in naked contact. The interpretation has been paraphrased as follows;

"King and Queen confront each other as they are, without conventional disguises. Both now have one flower each instead of two, symbolizing that two elements have paired off in a partial union. The naked contact represents the integration of the shadow with the ego. Assimilation of the shadow brings a return of the body. The conjunction of opposites. The soaring eagle of the ego and earthy toad of the shadow. Animal instinct and primitive consciousness merge without being repressed by fictions or illusions."

In view of the quoted passage above I don't think a great deal of further interpretation on my part is called for, whilst opinions of precise meaning might vary from person to person I think broadly, if you accept the interpretation to start with, the meaning is fairly clear. By the end of the episode things have changed for Buffy, she is becoming herself again.

On a more perfunctory level

He tries to take something beautiful, something that exists in the light, and bring it into the dirt and dark with him.

I saw this as Spike being aware that Buffy is not as deeply emotionally involved as he is, he has allowed William the poet back into the driving seat as it were but he is cautious enough to 'cover his own ass', at least conversationally. It's a cop out of course, 'I won't hurt you but you won't hurt me either so there nyah nyah na na na'. Whether he believes that, or whether he just wants Buffy to think that he believes that is another question. At any rate Buffy does hurt him later on both physically and emotionally in an eye for an eye manner, her actions referring back to his earlier behaviour towards her. Spike should probably be thankful that he is a (partially) reformed character, as Buffy now knows enough about him to be able to dust him if she so chose (didn't say would, said could). It is not beyond possibility that this is a part of Spikes motivation in becoming souled, to regain some defence against the Slayer(s).
[> [> [> Re: Dead Things -- lunasea, 07:33:54 03/08/03 Sat

Jung is always welcome. In case you haven't noticed, I use the term Unconscious, not SUBconscious when I write. His theories are probably my single greatest influence, hence why my screen name is the combination of two archetypes.

Not really sure how to phrase this, so pardon me if I ramble. I write like Jungians do, a bird circling a tree. Such is the side-effect of spending so much time with the unconscious.

I think the idea of integrating the shadow should be explored. But I really can't figure out the words right now. I will get back later. Taking a shower or a nap tends to get things from the unconscious to the conscious with me.
[> Older and Far Away (long) -- lunasea, 18:12:02 03/06/03 Thu

Is it just me, or do you think it is unfair that Willow and Xander never get a birthday party? They are people, too. Buffy needs to learn to celebrate her unbirthday. She might have better luck.

This is an episode basically saying that people are individuals and have lives. When we don't understand this, shit happens. This episode shows what ego is fighting for and why it is bad. Earlier S6 we saw the drawbacks of the Shadow. This episode is about the drawbacks of ego. Ego/light isn't all rainbows and unicorns.

We open with Dawn actually seeming understanding and nice. Buffy regrets having to leave her and go be Slayer. When Buffy leaves, Dawn's facade melts and we see how unhappy she is. We see where her anger at Buffy for what happened with Willow comes from, being left alone.

Is it just me, or is this not normal teen-age behavior? Did the Scoobies sit around saying that their families weren't around enough? A teen that wants to be around her sister/mother? Get real. Being a teen is about rebelling, about independence. Dawn is a nit.

"Gee I am so lonely." Then do like a normal teen and make some friends. Go suck face with some boy/girl (preferably human). Join some club at school. You don't fit any lock any more. Go be a teen. This is what makes Dawn the most annoying. Her life revolves around Buffy, so she expects Buffy to be everything for her. Buffy's purpose is to entertain Dawn. Got news for Dawn, not only is Buffy a Slayer, but she is a human being.

We get an interesting demon fighting scene. Buffy thinks it has run off. "Afraid to face a true warrior?" Her ego (being true warrior) gets in the way of her seeing what happened. This is going to invade her personal space, her home. Her reliance on her ego will cause her to unknowingly bring this demon into her home where it causes some damage, even to Xander.

Nit Dawn expects the Scoobies to drop what they are doing and go to the Mall with her. Dawn isn't seeing the Scoobies as people who have things to do. They are there to keep her company. I am talking about this because Dawn is representative of Buffy's ego. Buffy does tend to see others in relation to her, rather than as people with their own needs. When Buffy doesn't need them, as far as she is concerned, they go into a closet.

We gets nit Dawn being a clepto. It is her way to possess something. People won't be around, so she tries to replace that with things. She even steals Buffy a birthday present so that Buffy will like her. Buffy is rather clueless. My kid gives me an expensive present, first thing I do is look at my husband to see if he had anything to do with it. Next "Honey, this is gorgeous, how did you afford it?"

Then Hallie starts working Dawn. Vengeance (excuse me Justice) demons just nurture what is there. However, they are not the proper way to address something. If you want to address Dawn's pain, you get her to talk to Buffy or Buffy to talk to her. That is why I am not a big fan of "Justice." It typically does mask vengeance and is just a way to give false order to our world.

Sophie is a fun comical character for a pretty intense episode. Buffy isn't really connecting at work. She just wants to think she is.

To continue the theme of people only existing in relation to you, we have Anya: "Just an attractive single man, with whom we hope you find much in common. (Buffy looking annoyed) And if you happen to form-a romantic relationship leading to babies-and many double dates with us so we have someone else to talk to, yay!" She sets up Buffy so Anya has someone else to talk to and go on double dates with.

More awkward relationships from Tara/Willow and Spike/Buffy. Difference though. Willow and Tara are actually interested in each other. They see the other as individuals and not just an extension of themselves.

Spike brings in an outsider. Spike is an idiot. He wanted an ally so he didn't feel left out by the Scooby bonding. He also didn't want Buffy to throw him out. She would be less likely if he brought someone.

The Home is symbolic of Buffy's psyche, all of it. Dawn, the ego, keeps everything else imprisoned in it by her rigid ideas of what should be. We have the many faces of Buffy under one roof in this episode, including Slayer. Spike brings in a decent demon and Anya brings in a normal guy. Buffy brought in the demon she has to fight and harms her home. He seriously wounds the normal guy and Xander gets a flesh wound. That is Buffy. I love symbolism.

Tara and Willow are relating as individuals and finding out how the other is doing. Spike wants to sneak away and do what Spike does. Buffy isn't an individual, she is a shag partner. He teases her about the normal guy and their possible relationship.

Then we get to the gifts. Willow's gift is for Buffy the individual. She doesn't need someone if she has a back massager. Dawn's has already been discussed. Then we get Xander's amazing gift. Xander is the heart and the heart finds a way to bring some beauty to the practical world of the Slayer. Best of all it is hand (read from the heart) made.

Buffy ignores Dawn when Xander's gift comes out. This makes Dawn feel rotten, but it shows the relationship of ego and heart in Buffy. The heart is what brought her joy that evening. It is the heart that will be most appreciated. It was the heart that will win out in the end (think back to a certain message in S7)

It is at this point, after gifts have been exchanged that Sophie comes in. This shows what work gives to Buffy and how important (or rather unimportant) it is. Work also have a lot of problems associated with it, that Buffy just rolls with. "No problem"

At this point, ego doesn't like all the other parts of Buffy's psyche being more important, so Dawn makes her wish.

I loved when Tara catches Spike and Buffy. I find it incredibly amusing that the character that represents work is Sophie. Sophia, wisdom, is rather symbolic historically. In this episode, Sophia is played by Tara. Tara is the higher consciousness. She is the one that told Buffy she didn't come back wrong. She has to die because Buffy and Willow need to connect with the actual higher consciousness, not through the character of Tara.

No gift from Spike or Tara. The Shadow doesn't add to Buffy, it doesn't give her anything. Neither does Dawn really. Her gift is unusable and tainted. The Higher conscious is the gift. It doesn't need to give one.

More interaction between the characters. It just shows how the components of Buffy's psyche relate. If you watch the show from this perspective, it might be more interesting.

The demon in the wall was great. It was not only in the house, but literally in the house. It seriously wounded the normal guy, just like the Slayer makes it so Buffy cannot have a normal life. It hurt Xander, but not seriously, just like the Slayer hurts Buffy's heart, but not seriously.

I could do more, but the idea is there.

For the Dark Night, the ego has asserted itself this time, but we do get to see how the other components of Buffy's personality are feelings, including her higher consciousness. Hallie has to lift the curse at the end, thus showing that ego will give way eventually, thus freeing Buffy's psyche.

It was about trying to hold onto others. That is what ego does, allows us to relate to others. It also makes it hard to see people as individuals. We define ourselves and others by relationships. Look at some people's net names.

Sorry if that was a bit confusing. I was analysing on several different levels at once.

There is another level, Dawn wants people to spend time with her because it gives her self worth. "Cause being stuck in here with me, that would really suck, right?" Ego wants people to exist in relation to it, or else it isn't there. If I am not a mom, what am I? Ego is fighting for its own preservation.

If I am not a mom, then how do I act? My identity as a mom tells me how to act. That is our fear -- if I am not X, how do I act? If I don't se myself as loving, I won't be loving.

Have to say after going through the Dark Night that such thoughts are unfounded. When you get to the other side you are more loving than you ever could be with ego in the way. I am a better mom, now that being a mom doesn't dictate my actions. That is pretty hard to trust.
[> [> Got to *vehemently* disagree with your pov on Dawn. -- HonorH (Dawn Defender), 22:56:17 03/06/03 Thu

Yes, many teens want to rebel because they see their parents as being too restrictive. Yes, teens do need to make friends. With Dawn, though, that's not the problem. She's got friends, as we've seen. But parents and rules? Dawn has no real constraints on her life, because the adults in her life, her role models, aren't there for her, with the exception of Tara. Dawn lost her mother. She lost Buffy. She lost Giles. Tara moved out. Spike, her old friend and protector, has hardly been there for Dawn since Buffy got back. She's stuck with a sister whose emotional level is somewhere south of "zombie" and a witch who nearly got her killed. This could conceivably make any teen insecure. All she wants is someone to reassure her that she's loved, that she matters. She wants to spend time with them, but they're all so wrapped up in their own problems that the fifteen-year-old in need of role models is left to her own devices.

So she resorts to getting negative attention by stealing and making it *so* very obvious to Buffy that's what she did. Also, her rejections of Buffy come because she wants Buffy to pursue her. None of this is clear to Dawn, of course, because she's still very young--all she knows is that she hurts, and she doesn't have anyone older and wiser to help her through it.

Fifteen is a terrible age--you're a mass of hormones, every problem feels like the end of the world, you want to be an adult and a child at the same time--and there was no one to help Dawn through it. That's where her bratty S6 behavior comes from. And that's why she's so much better now: because Buffy has reassured her that she's loved and that her well-being matters to Buffy. Dawn's more secure now, secure enough to let Buffy go do the things she needs to.
[> [> [> Disagreement is great -- lunasea, 06:31:53 03/07/03 Fri

Thank you for sharing that.

And that's why she's so much better now: because Buffy has reassured her that she's loved and that her well-being matters to Buffy.

This is why I (and probably others) have little toleranace for Dawn Season 6. Buffy DIED for Dawn at the end of Season 5. It doesn't get any bigger than that. Once someone dies for you, she shouldn't have to reassure you that you are loved and that your well-being matters to them. Buffy DIED for her, for Christ's sake.

We aren't talking normal teen issues with a normal teen. The writers completely ignored this amazing thing that Buffy did for Dawn and tried to make her into a normal teen with normal teen issues.

I liked her better S5 when they were showing that she was raised with rules to this abnormal life that she had. I like she S7 when they are showing her adapting to that abnormal life. S6 was just "nobody love me." If that was the case, the would have let her bleed on that platform.

Talk about needy. What more proof does she need?
[> [> [> [> Dying for Love (Spoilers for Him - BtVS S7) -- Rahael, 06:44:10 03/07/03 Fri

Actually, I think Dawn learned that lesson really well - that was one of the things that struck me when I watched "Him" recently - the only thing Dawn felt she could offer was to die for someone.

However, such a lesson is paradoxical. I can empathise with the pain that Dawn felt after Buffy died. Knowledge that she had been given this demonstration of Buffy's love, but still, the resentment, the grief, the pain that bereavement brings with it.

The hell in heaven's despite that love can sometimes build, unintentionally.

Moreover, you could also see Dawn's pain and grief, and stark expression of abandoment by Buffy as an expression of one part of Buffy herself, which has been denied a voice, and neglected. Part of Buffy in Season 6 is still the child whose mother has died. Still wanting to be looked after, and yet, she has to give up so much. She doesn't speak about it, how can she? Giles has departed too. I always saw Dawn as articulating what Buffy wouldn't allow herself to, and indeed, articulating it all the more because of the huge raw, obvious wound that Buffy was clearly and determinedly ignoring.
[> [> [> [> [> All Characters are Buffy -- lunasea, 07:15:11 03/07/03 Fri

Moreover, you could also see Dawn's pain and grief, and stark expression of abandoment by Buffy as an expression of one part of Buffy herself, which has been denied a voice, and neglected. Part of Buffy in Season 6 is still the child whose mother has died. Still wanting to be looked after, and yet, she has to give up so much. She doesn't speak about it, how can she? Giles has departed too. I always saw Dawn as articulating what Buffy wouldn't allow herself to, and indeed, articulating it all the more because of the huge raw, obvious wound that Buffy was clearly and determinedly ignoring.

Agreed. All characters are reflections of something about Buffy. That is how the show is written). Spike does an exceptionally good job with this. Willow was great because she also showed things that Buffy couldn't. Buffy is the hero and as such can't do certain things. The writers explore those with other characters, like Dawn, Spike and Willow.
[> [> [> [> And again with the disagreeing. -- HonorH, 07:53:26 03/07/03 Fri

Yes, Buffy died for Dawn. That adds a heap of guilt to everything else. Does Buffy blame her for that? Does Buffy blame her for not being able to just die again and go back to Heaven? Buffy gives her no clue as to what she's feeling. Hence Dawn's constant insecurity about whether Buffy wants to be with her. Does she resent me? Am I a burden?

It's a problem, too, saying "Buffy died for her--isn't that enough?" Is it? Tell me, can you do one huge thing for someone you love, then practically ignore them the rest of the time, and expect it to be enough? Can you, when they come seeking your attention, point at that thing and say, "I made this huge sacrifice for you; that should be enough. Leave me alone."? People need reassurance that your feelings haven't changed and that you still love them that much.

That's why the end matters so much: Buffy shows that she's willing to *live* for Dawn, which is what's important in S6.

When I've got time, I'll dig up my old analysis of S6 Dawn's character development. It explains exactly what I mean.
[> [> [> [> [> Fun Part of Dawn -- lunasea, 08:29:19 03/07/03 Fri

She actually wasn't that fleshed out, so you can see anything that you want to. The writers admit that they dropped the ball with her, one of their biggest mistakes S6, so you can see a normal teen and I can see an ungrateful brat.

An analysis of S6 Dawn's character development will be interesting, seeing as there isn't that much.
[> [> [> [> [> [> And here it is: Re-Repost of Dawn's S6 Character Development -- HonorH, 08:39:46 03/07/03 Fri

In the first ep, she seems okay on the outside. She draws comfort and security from Willow and Tara's presence and Spike's protection and friendship. Still, sometimes at night, she crawls into bed with the BuffyBot. Things are frightening in her world. She's lost so much, and she's afraid to lose more.

Then Buffy returns. On the outside, it's a dream come true. Dawn is very mature at this point, dealing with traumatized Buffy, and even smacking down the Scoobies when they get overwhelming. Only at one point does this maturity crack: when reversing the spell that brought Buffy back is mentioned. Then she instantly reverts to a frightened 15-year-old. But the crisis is averted and things seem fine--but they're not.

Financial disaster looms, something Dawn was heretofore unaware of. Spike all but disappears from Dawn's life. Buffy's back, but she's not really *back*. Tara and Willow are quarreling. Dawn gets caught up in teenage prankstering that ends disastrously.

Then the other shoe drops: Buffy was in heaven. She didn't want to be brought back. She doesn't even want to be alive. Perhaps the only thing keeping her from committing suicide is the fact that Dawn needs taken care of. It's not unreasonable to assume that Dawn, at this point, feels Buffy must resent her.

After this, we get the exodus of Tara and Giles, the two most secure adults in Dawn's life. Buffy sinks further into depression and starts spending more and more time away. Willow also withdraws, and then nearly gets Dawn killed. This is when we start to see real resentment on Dawn's part. She's 15, and all the adults in her life are imploding. She's got no one to help her out with growing up. At this point, Dawn starts lashing out at Buffy, who, after all, obviously resents her as well.

Buffy's birthday takes place right after Buffy's abortive attempt to turn herself in. Dawn's desperate enough by now to try an obvious ploy for attention: getting caught stealing. What with one thing and another, the problems get exposed, and Buffy and Dawn reconcile. They're almost back to their old loving selves for "As You Were" and "Hell's Bells."

It's not coincidental that Dawn's insecurity makes an encore appearance after Xander and Anya's spectacular breakup. Another seemingly-steady couple has gone blooey, and now Buffy's acting crazy. In Buffy's asylum world, where her parents are alive and together, Dawn doesn't exist. Learning this cuts Dawn deep. She'd hoped things were getting better, but apparently somewhere in Buffy's mind, Dawn's not a part of her world. Hence the anger.

It's at this point that all Dawn's worst fears come true: her protector turns into her attacker, insisting Dawn isn't real, just like she feared all along. But then Buffy makes the decision that makes all the difference: faced with two worlds, one of which is comfortable and secure and the other of which is frightening and hard, but includes Dawn and her friends, Buffy chooses this world. She chooses to stay with Dawn. Thus, the rebuilding relationship we see in "Entropy."

In "Entropy," Buffy and Dawn and Willow and Tara are paralleled. Buffy's trying hard to win Dawn's trust and love back, which is exactly what Willow is doing with Tara. The only thing is, both Dawn and Tara are all too eager to be caught. Just as Tara re-enters Willow's territory--the Summers house--at the end, Dawn wants to enter Buffy's world: patrolling. Buffy's still caught in the trap of believing she needs to--and can--protect Dawn from the world, however.

SR puts paid to that. Buffy is attacked twice in her own home, and Tara is killed. Willow, a friend, turns out to be a tougher opponent than Buffy's faced all year. "People I love are dying, and you can't protect me," Dawn tells Buffy in "Grave." Buffy doesn't want to believe this, but she's got no choice.

The final straw comes when Buffy starts crying with relief that the world isn't ending, and Dawn mistakes it for crying with disappointment. Buffy finally realizes just what a toll her depression has taken on Dawn, and she resolves to change that. She resolves to show Dawn not only the world, but that she herself is no longer afraid of life. As they climb out of the earth together, the reconciliation is complete. Dawn's secure in her sister's love, and she's now ready to journey on toward womanhood with Buffy's guidance.
[> [> [> [> [> [> And another thing! Or three! -- HonorH (who's *really* on a roll now), 13:18:23 03/07/03 Fri

Gratitude isn't Dawn's problem in S6. Insecurity is. Let's examine, for a moment, the issues surrounding Buffy's death:

1. Dawn was created out of a Key that appears to be solely destructive and given false memories. Thus, her entire life is a facade.

2. Buffy had to put her whole life on hold for Dawn. She quit school and dedicated herself to taking care of Dawn, becoming essentially a single mother at 20.

3. Buffy died for Dawn. Buffy, the Slayer, who was real and loved and needed by the world.

So, Dawn is left with a few possible thoughts:

1. Buffy wasn't supposed to die. I was. Buffy saved. I destroyed. I'm unworthy of her sacrifice.

2. The people who loved Buffy must resent me, since I was the cause for Buffy's death.

3. How could Buffy leave me? Was it easier, for her, to die? Did she want to leave me? Was I that much of a burden to her?

Now, over the summer, Dawn appears to have come to terms with her grief. Then Buffy reappears and seems to be worse off than she was before her death. So the old questions get dredged up again, and Dawn is left wondering if Buffy resents her now--does she blame Dawn for her ordeal?

What Dawn's looking for is not extraordinary gestures, like taking a flying leap off a tower for her, but ordinary ones--making sure Dawn's eating and going to school, talking to her, touching her, and so on. She wants, in other words, to feel like she's a part of Buffy's life, and a welcome one. Those things are noticeably absent in S6. Buffy doesn't talk to Dawn much. She also doesn't touch her. In S5, Buffy was always sitting by Dawn, touching her arm, stroking her hair, or hugging her. Now, the truth is probably that Buffy felt so mangled by her resurrection that she didn't want to touch anyone, and then so dirtied by her affair with Spike that Dawn, who represents purity to her, would be sullied by Buffy's touch. However, Dawn only sees someone who keeps her at a distance. She can't understand Buffy's deeper issues since Buffy won't share them. So she wonders if maybe Buffy's stopped loving her.

You also said earlier that Dawn should be happy not to have adult supervision. By that theory, teens who are ignored by their parents should be the happiest. Wrong! As someone who works with teens, I can tell you that those teens are the unhappiest, angriest kids you'll ever meet. Teens want to know someone's watching them and taking care of them, even if they won't admit it.

Which brings us back to Dawn. Buffy won't take responsibility for her (note the passing-off of discipline on Giles in ATW). Willow loses her authority when she goes on her bender. Tara moves out. Xander and Anya are caught up in their wedding plans. Giles is gone. Dawn's been cut adrift, and she reacts by becoming increasingly angry and insecure--just like any teen would. Underlying it all is the idea that Buffy may give up and die again, and then who will take care of Dawn? Willow the Wicca-holic? Dawn's so-called "father" she's never even met, technically? Is Dawn's love for Buffy enough to keep her in the world, or will she lose Buffy all over again?

As someone who works with teens, I can tell you that it's easier to label them as brats. It's much harder to sit down and listen to them and try to understand why they act the way they do. Maybe that's why I'm such a big Dawn defender--because I can see where she's coming from and why she acts the way she does.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And another thing! Or three! -- Miss Edith, 13:27:59 03/07/03 Fri

I can understand people feeling the need to defend Dawn as IMO her behaviour in season 6 was understandable. My problem was simply that ME in making Dawn a realistic teen, didn't make her likeable for me. I believe Marit acknowledged that one of her season 6 regrets was writing Dawn a little too young.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ooops that should have said Marti -- Miss Edith, 13:30:50 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Teens are not likable people. -- HonorH, 13:50:51 03/07/03 Fri

You think I like 'em? Not in general. No, I really don't. They're unreliable. Inconsistent. Obnoxious. Immature. Weird! What's to like?

No, I don't like them, but I do try to love them. I'm in awe of them, in a way, because they're so very much in process, and it's a hard, hard place to be. They struggle, they make mistakes, and somehow, the majority of them come out on the other end as functioning adults. I admire that.

Which is why I defend S6 Dawn. She *is* a realistic teen, warts and all (though not acne--her skin is gorgeous). Perhaps she was written a little young, but perhaps again that wasn't such a mistake. Dawn never had a childhood, and being in such an insecure place as she was last season, it makes sense that she'd regress a bit and get clingy. So I don't mind.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Teens are not likable people. -- Miss Edith, 14:09:07 03/07/03 Fri

I just feel a line needs to be drawn between having realism on tv, and having likeable characters that people want to invite into their homes every week. Season 6 Dawn's characterisation did not succeed in endearing her to me, and I was one of the people who didn't have a problem with Dawn once in season 5.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I liked some -- lunasea, 14:43:20 03/07/03 Fri

Like Willow and Xander and Buffy and Oz. We saw them as teens and they were incredibly likeable.

Not Cordy or Harmony, though. We weren't supposed to like them.

Talk about neglect. Willow's mom didn't even know that she got her hair cut. Willow wasn't a pain.

Xander's family was beyond dysfunctional. He wasn't a pain.

Buffy's mom was pretty absentee. Again, not a pain.

Dawn is still supposed to be Joyce's kid. The mother that raised Buffy raised Dawn. Shouldn't Dawn have benefited from this somewhat? Dawn didn't act like Joyce's child S5. Teens that are that big a pain tend to have a long history of neglect, not just a few weeks/months. Dawn was a pain from the beginning of S6.

Dawn may have been a "normal" teen, but she had no reason to be.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Still not convincing me. -- HonorH, 15:15:23 03/07/03 Fri

So she was raised by Joyce. Good. But Dawn didn't have Joyce after her death. A mother's death is a big, big thing in a child's life, especially if she's left with her big sister, who gets killed, then comes back. To expect that just because Dawn was raised by Joyce, she'd be perfectly okay no matter what happened is downright unrealistic--especially considering all the trauma Dawn went through following Joyce's death. That doesn't just disappear. To expect Dawn to be perfectly mature and perfectly behaved and without Issues following S5 is to ask too much of her.

Also, I don't see that Dawn expected Buffy's life to revolve around her. She also wasn't a pain right from the beginning. Look at my character sketch for her--her real attitude didn't start until after "Wrecked". She was okay through "Bargaining" and "After Life", especially. I hardly see where she was a "pain" in those eps. Sure, she was lonely and insecure, and she was stealing (which is not entirely abnormal behavior for a traumatized teenager), but she never rejected Buffy until "Gone". All she wanted was reassurance Buffy still cared, and I believe canon supports me on that. After OAFA, Dawn's misbehavior largely clears up, and after NA, it's gone entirely.

As for friends, remember: we're not in Dawn's pov. We're not shown her school life or social life. For all we know, she could've been one popular kid at school. Cordelia was, but did that make her easier to live with? We're shown Dawn *as she relates to Buffy*, and that relationship was wounded. Therefore, we can't blame her for not making friends, since we don't know how many she actually had.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Would another Dawn Defender step in? -- HonorH, 15:17:44 03/07/03 Fri

I'm leaving for the weekend shortly, and I don't want Dawn to be without an apologist. Anybody? Thank you.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dear Secretary of Dawn Defense: -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:26:51 03/07/03 Fri

I could step in, if ya want.

Of course, I might face the charge of being too sentimental towards Dawn since I'm also a teengaer. Ah well, so mote it be.

I haven't added anything to this thread so far because you've been doing a pretty good job at it.

- from the Chairman of Dawnian Affairs
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll have a go, too -- pr10n, 16:45:43 03/07/03 Fri

I have a teenager (kheldar_assassin, 14), so maybe that's a little perspective along with Finn's "boundless energy." All teens have that, right? :)

Also, my defense would start right here: Buffy died for Dawn.

I would restate that as, "Buffy died in Dawn's place, but Buffy died to close the portal because she's the Slayer."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not my Buffy -- lunasea, 17:33:46 03/07/03 Fri

Buffy died to close the portal because she's the Slayer.

Not the Buffy I watch. She died because she loves her sister. Her ability to love lead to her gift, death. I didn't see anything about being Slayer in that.

It was one of the few actions she got to do that wasn't about being Slayer. It was about how much she loved Dawn. She killed Angel because she was the Slayer. As Slayer, she should have killed Dawn.

But I am tired of talking about Dawn. She is a minor character and this thread was about Buffy. Geeze, saying anything negative about Dawn get more responses than saying it about Spike.

So what if Dawn is a normal teen? She is still whiney (her voice was seriously grating in Bargaining) and a pain. I don't care if there is a reason. She was still a selfish pain. I wasn't dealing with Dawn's perspective or why she acted like she did. I was dealing with Buffy.

Dawn deserves her own thread. As do Willow (which I really do want to do later), Xander, Spike (someone else will have to do that one), Anya, Tara and Giles. A season is pretty complicated. It helps to give each character's perspective. I was giving Buffy's, something not everyone got, even though she got the most screen time.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not one of those things was ever shown though -- lunasea, 14:26:52 03/07/03 Fri

You are giving Dawn motivation that the writers never wrote. The character is completely open to interpretation.

Dawn is supposed to be Buffy. Joyce was a single parent and was pretty absentee. Did Buffy ever resent this? Nope. She had Giles, Angel and the Scoobies.

My position comes from my mother being pretty absent and when she was there she was emotionally abusive. What got me through was the friends I made on the debate team and a teacher I made friends with back in junior high.

We saw one friend of Dawn's that year, Janice, the one that hooked up her up the vampire. Dawn did not appear to have much of a social life. That wasn't Buffy's fault. If Dawn did have friends, maybe things would have been much different. It isn't fair for teens to expect their parents' lives to revolve around them. Part of growing up is realizing this.

You see what you want in Dawn and spackle in your experiences to fill in what the writers never gave us and I will fill it in with my own experiences.

That is the beauty with characters that aren't fully fleshed out. We can see whatever we want. You say you see where Dawn is coming from. You see where you want Dawn to come from. The show didn't give us enough to say where that is. The writers do regret that.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I disagree--I think what HonorH is saying is exactly what the writers meant us to see about Dawn. -- Dyna, 15:53:48 03/07/03 Fri

Clearly, all of us understand what others are feeling by applying our own experiences and observations about human nature to what's before us. If this is what you mean by "spackling in your experiences," I don't quite see how this is wrong, as you seem to be saying it is. It's simply part and parcel of how fictional characters work. We see a partial reality, a tiny slice or heap of clues and hints, and from it we make leaps, pay attention to our instincts and emotional responses, and make meaning from it. What other method is there?

Regarding HonorH's specific points about Dawn, her interpretation rings perfectly true to me, and in fact I believe she's understood well what the writers were trying to do. Dawn was still a child in S6, and one who was stuck at a point of difficult transition, without benefit of much adult guidance. She seemed deeply insecure and conflicted to me, guilty about her role in Buffy's death and subsequent ordeal, but also needy and upset at being neglected. Basically, what HonorH said. All very natural too, imo.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dawn was still a pain -- lunasea, 17:40:52 03/07/03 Fri

I don't quite see how this is wrong, as you seem to be saying it is.

Because we all have different experiences. That is why it is the writers job to give us the motivation, so we don't do this. If they want us to see something, they need to show it to us.

As for Dawn, the writers wanted to grow her up a bit. They left her pretty monotone like they did Buffy. Nobody-likes-me Dawn was just as tiresome as numb Buffy or strung-out Willow.

Dawn has been through some phenomenal experiences. The Dawn we are now seeing should have been more evident S6. She wasn't. Oh Gee, Buffy loves me. Guess I'll be all mature now. It is only a year later and Dawn acts like it has been several. That Dawn wouldn't have been a pain.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Are you even trying to understand? -- HonorH, 18:10:17 03/07/03 Fri

Okay, a little frustrated now. I'm dashing this off before I leave for the weekend, but think about this:

There's always a reason why people act the way they do. Now, my guesses may not be accurate, but I'm going along the lines of, "Here's Dawn's exhibited behavior, and here's what happened to her. Therefore, I think this is why she's acting that way." You're just saying she "was a pain." Which, btw, is accurate only for a small sampling of episodes. Examine her behavior in each episode, and you'll see what I mean.

Fact is, until "Gone," we got only small glimpses of Rebellious!Dawn. Until then, she was either supportive of Buffy or a bit player. Then we had a whole string of eps in which Dawn was antagonistic toward Buffy. After OAFA, her behavior yet again improves, and in AYW, she's actively inviting Buffy into her life again. There's one last gasp of Angry!Dawn in NA, but even in that ep she was loving of and supportive toward Buffy for 99% of the ep. After that, all we have is a stated wish to be more a part of Buffy's life. I fail to see how that adds up to a character who was nothing but a pain for an entire season. More like, it adds up to colored memories.

Anyway, good luck at arguing this with the rest of the Dawn Defenders. We're few in number, but very persistent.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not going to argue -- lunasea, 19:14:06 03/07/03 Fri

My position is I am not interested in the explanation for Dawn's behavior. I am not judging a person. When it comes to that, I am so non-judgemental that I don't believe in Capital Punishment under any circumstance. With real people I do try to find out their motives and help them if I can. There's a reason I talk mainly about Buffy and Angel. If I find Dawn a nit, who cares. Most teens on TV are nits. They have to grow up before they become actual lice.

You're defending her because she is a normal teen. It is TV. I want my Scoobies. Willow managed to be insecure without being annoying. Same with Xander. Buffy never felt like nails on a blackboard. Oz was just cool. I would take Cordy's attitude over Dawn's non-existence S6. Non-existence annoys me. Not a big Anya fan either. The one thing I like about her is since she doesn't have a lot of emotions and issues, she is the most free about sex.

S6 we got small glimpses of Dawn, period. Until she royally screws up in OAFA, her character doesn't grow. That is the fault of the writers. That is episode 13, so it is half-way into the season before Dawn grows. In the remaining 9 she becomes what she is S7? First no growth and then someone sprinkled miracle grow on her? It isn't a comment about Dawn, but how they wrote her. Since they didn't write all that much, there isn't a whole lot of interest on my part. There are too many characters for me to analyze each of them from their perspective like I do Buffy and Angel.

You see Dawn as a person. I see her as a plot device to show things about Buffy. You can defend the person if you want. If anything Dawn didn't act like a normal teen. The writers didn't go, given these circumstances how would Dawn act. They MADE Dawn a pain to make Buffy's life a pain. They put Dawn in pain so it would be one more thing to make Buffy go numb and Buffy would have to eventually deal with it. Dawn's paininess was about Buffy. That is how the show is written.

Besides it isn't like I didn't say nice things about Dawn throughout the thread. I just picked on her whining about nobody wants to be with me. You can say that Dawn is perfectly justified in her feelings and explain them away. What if Buffy never came around? There are plenty of kids who will never get the love that Dawn got. What about them? They should all be cleptos and whine all the time? Everyone is entitled to their feelings, but they are also entitled to actually do something about them.

Defend away. The Spike defenders are the most rabid and I don't shrink from them either. Willow can scream way better too. I miss Willow screams. They were great. Nobody could scream like Willow. Heck, even Xander screams better than Dawn.

Dawn was a pain, to watch :-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Aha -- Tchaikovsky, 02:22:03 03/08/03 Sat

You see Dawn as a person. I see her as a plot device to show things about Buffy.

That's exactly my bone of contention with your interpretations of the Season as a whole. Please see my response to your reply to me lower down.

TCH
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also agree with HonorH--she's right on the money with Dawn -- Dariel, 19:53:53 03/07/03 Fri

Adding to all of the other problems Dawn had to deal with was the trauma of being kidnapped and nearly killed at the end of S5. Plus all of the assorted other violence that comes with having a Slayer for a sister.

Never thought Dawn was whiney, bratty, a pain, whatever. Just an unhappy teen. Actually, considering all of the crap in her life, she was/is pretty well-adjusted!
[> As You Were (long) -- lunasea, 18:23:36 03/06/03 Thu

How I loathe having to do this one. It wasn't badly written or anything. I do love Riley, but I felt severly cheated by this episode. Damn no cross-over rule.

This episode wasn't supposed to star Riley. It was supposed to be Angel, damn it!!!! If Riley was that perceptive, he wouldn't have left to begin with. The dialogue was pure Riley, but the ideas were all Angel.

And the wife. Couldn't they get an actual actress? What the hell was that?!!? Perfect character, perfectly written and Doug Petrie did his job. The "actress" screwed everything up. If they bring Riley and wife back to fight this season (which would fit) I think no one will mind if they cast another actress. Riley does have to be married, or there is no reason that Buffy won't throw herself at him (unless Angel shows up).

Onto the show. Subtitle: Spike is a vampire, people!!!

Buffy isn't the only one "as you were." So is Spike. The writers could have had Spike with the demon eggs in order to get money for Buffy so that she didn't have to work at the DMP. At least that would have been grey. As he reminds Buffy in Smashed "I'm supposed to be treading on the dark side."

After this episode, no more Spuffy shippers should be left (if Dead Things left any doubt). Buffy wised up, why can't the audience?

We open with some Machiavelli (don't get me started on how little Machiavelli actually believed what he wrote in "The Prince." It is a lot like Hobbes "Leviathan" a way to get in good with the current power, since they were in trouble with them).
You gotta keep your friends close, but your enemies? Closer.

Think of this from the perspective that Spike is Buffy's enemy. Not just the character of Spike, but her Shadow. That is a common misconception in psychology, that if we should embrace our shadows. It is keeping our enemies even closer.

Then we get a vampire that won't eat Buffy because she stinks. Her work is tainting her so that even the ooglie-booglies are disgusted.

She brings some of this taint home for Dawn, but Dawn is smart enough to reject it.

But first we have to be subjected to Spuffy sex. At least she doesn't let him into her house. This is more symbolism of how he is loosing his power over her. She is still choosing Dawn over Spike, sort of. She did do the nasty, but didn't taint Dawn with it. She smashes her tainted food with her tainted sex.

I thought it was very sweet when she said "I made it myself. I-I made hundreds, actually, but this is the, the very best one." She is trying so hard. Thing is she has to stop trying. Dawn is appreciative, but her trying is ultimately not right. Dawn is sick of the food.

Everyone is out at the Bronze and Buffy is in her home (her psyche). She oversleeps and misses the trash. That is probably the best description of how the Dark Night relates to the rest of the world. We get so wrapped up in our psyche, that we forget mundane things, like taking out the trash. When we remember, it is too late. We go running after it, but to no avail. Then Dawn comes in to remind her.

She was trying to get rid of the garbage and instead is stuck with it. Dark Night burns away "garbage" and frees us from it. You cannot give garbage away. Others cannot take it away for you. You are stuck with it. It sucks.

She is late with her registration forms for readmission to college. She came back in September and had plenty of time before the January 15th deadline. Still she missed the deadline, probably because time has no meaning, including deadline. I paid several bills late. I knew when they were due, but it just didn't seem to matter.

That is one thing that prolongs the Dark Night. If time doesn't matter, we miss deadlines and our (and those associated with us) lives get messed up. If we give up caring about anything, same thing will happen to everything.

Thing is it doesn't. We just do what is required. Time may not have any meaning, but that doesn't mean we run from it. When we have to do things, we do. The house gets cleaned, dishes get washed, bills get paid, everything gets done, more than before. I actually sing when I clean. Everything is a joy, so nothing gets put off.

Dawn is being much nicer this episode. She isn't nearly as demanding and understands that Buffy has other things to do.

Then we get Riley. I screamed when I saw him. I like Riley. Not as much as I love Angel, but I do like Riley and would be happy if he and Buffy were together.

But I knew it wasn't to be. Besides that he was married, he wasn't connecting with her. He was all business. She was all puppy dog eyes and he was not.

The Tribble reference was great. It intruded on the super-serious world of demon hunting. Thing is, how much has she really dealt with the Trio? What is she doing, watching episodes of Star Trek in order to understand them? They want to be her arch-nemeses, but she really hasn't interacted with them much. She gave them form.

Buffy is worried that the demon is too fast, but Riley has a way to handle that. In the car, Riley makes Buffy change out of her work outfit into something more appropriate. It may be black, but that doesn't seem to be the important part. Just changing in the car is. They keep talking about talking, but don't get a chance to. Buffy doesn't get a chance to deal with anything before being confronted by the misses. Of course Riley has to make a comment about the hair. Who doesn't?

Dark, dam (not ending in "n" for a change), more symbolism. Sunnydale even has a dam we learn. Buffy is holding back a lot, like a dam.

Intercut with this episode is more wedding talk. We have the future Mr. and Mrs Harris picking up relatives and complaining about them. They aren't seeing themselves as their relationships to their relatives, but they are seeing themselves as their relationship to each other.

Buffy messes up the mission. They want to track the demon to find the eggs. Buffy wasn't informed and instead does what she does, slay. She couldn't think out of the box. She wasn't told it was out of the box, but she assumed it was in the box.

Buffy brings Riley and wife into her house, her psyche. Riley knows just what to say to Dawn. He connects instantly with Xander. Willow is fully prepared to hate Sam, but Sam knows the perfect thing to say to her. Riley and Sam are the higher consciousness. (just like Angel is in earlier episodes like Forever and Helpless). There is no Tara in this episode. This episode made Riley into something more than he was and Sam was so perfect it may have grated on people, but they represent something perfect. This episode really needed Angel. He isn't so grating. He may be perfect with Buffy, be we also know his other side.

I loved how Xander slipped in the wedding talk. As a professional I can tell him that regular people take great snap shots, but only a professional who has studied light and posing can create something that you want to hang on the wall or show others. (just an aside)

The problem itself is very symbolic. It goes back to the dam. Buffy is a dam ready to burst. The eggs are ready to be hatched. What results could be very destructive. Where are those eggs? Who didn't put them in the freezer to slow down their maturation? What results? bad Spike

Sam and Buffy's interaction wouldn't have been annoying with an actual actress who could play Sam. We needed someone like Tara that could fight. I cannot picture this person as a Peace Corp worker. It wasn't her size. It was her demeanor. There are warriors that have heart. Sam is supposed to be that. It was there in the lines, but not the delivery. Riley pulled off the delivery (but we already knew him to be a different character, so it wasn't easy to swallow)

That scene was important and it got screwed. I don't know how ME could show it to us. It was *that* bad.

Higher consciousness gives her a good perspective, even if it is delivered for crap. Buffy cannot quite handle it, so she goes back to Spike. I don't think she was thinking of Riley when she bopped that evil undead thing. She just wanted to think that someone loved her, that she was loveable. She wants to be wanted. "I want you to want me" (if you don't know the line, shame on you)

It has nothing to do with Riley or Spike. Dawn wanted people to stick around so that she would feel worthy. Buffy is using Spike for the same reason. It has nothing to do with love or sex. She feels special, loved, needed when she is with him. If Xander wasn't with Anya and puppy dogging after her, she would have done the same thing to him.

That is why he is an escape. He is an escape from all her non-feelings. She can do anything to him and he will keep coming back for more. It isn't that she can express her darkness with Spike, but she can do it and he keeps coming back.

Sam is forgiving her for hurting Riley. Buffy isn't going to cry in the cemetary like she did with Tara, but the feelings are there. When Buffy feels unloveable, is overwhelmed by her non-feelings, she turns to Spike. What Sam says makes her feel unloveable (better no guy than the wrong guy, that's for sure). The dynamics of the conversation went a bit fast, but could anyone else bear any more from that actress?

We get Spuffy sex, but I already dealt with that. Riley's reaction was great. The higher consciousness doesn't get side tracked. It does what has to be done. Spike tries to push every button that he thinks Riley has. Riley doesn't have them any more (which is BS. If he didn't have them, Buffy and Riley would still be together. This was Angel's show DAMN IT!!!) They made Riley into something he wasn't. Did he grow wings while he was down there? Anyone check for his halo? Can you get one on eBay?

Now we get to see how Buffy sees Spike, but the higher consciousness knows better "Deadly ... amoral ... opportunistic."

Hello people!!! Spike is still a vampire. Chipped, but still a vampire. The Blue Fairy didn't come down and make him a real boy. Riley can see him for what he is. Even Xander can. Why can't the audience?

Then we get all those eggs, showing Riley is right and Spike/Spuffy shippers are WRONG (can I gloat, just a little?). Up to this point, Buffy was pretty quiet in the whole exchange. Riley was in the drivers seat. Now they are almost equals again.

Great line Rile: Can you shut him up? Buffy: Not so far.

She hasn't been able to shut up her shadow. After this, we will see.

A transition has occured. Buffy is the one that blows up the baby demons. She uses her body to sheild Riley. She is becomine closer to her higher conscious.

Now we get a great conversation, coming out of the wrong mouth.

But in the end, Buffy did the right thing, which put her that much closer to the higher conscious. She could have told Riley that she went to stop him. It might have made her feel better, but it would have hurt him. She saw Riley as a person and as a person, she didn't want to hurt him. She didn't do this because of her relationship to Riley, but because of her heart. She was done lashing out. No more Angelus behavior.

So the next logical thing is to go see Spike. First we have Willow and Xander connecting with the higher conscious in the form of Sam. Willow will make it, eventually. Xander is only concerned about the wedding, so it isn't a strong connection (but he doesn't need one). Even Dawn forgives Riley. Then the two higher conscious go up into the sky, together.

Then we get another great conversation coming from the right mouth. Then she walks out into the sunlight. GO BUFFY!!!! Buffy learned where you should keep your enemies, and it isn't next to you in bed.
[> [> minor disagreement -- Slainey, 08:48:54 03/07/03 Fri

I disagree about the actress who played Sam. I thought she did a great job. She seemed awkward but I saw that as part of the character's awkwardness of meeting your husband's strong and beautiful ex and all her friends. (I know I felt terribly awkward meeting my husband's short and cute ex and all her friends. I can project too.) And she tried too hard especially when it came to things she knew like fighting and weddings.

If Riley comes back to help fight at the end I was thinking it would be cool to have Sam be somewhere else, about to give birth. (To a normal human child!)
[> [> Re: As You Were (long) -- Jay, 20:39:10 03/07/03 Fri

This is great stuff, a ton to read through, but fascinating.

I've always believed that most people miss the point when it comes to Riley. When you construct him in consort with Buffy opposed to her vampires, he's one thing. But Riley has always been something different. To me, (at this point irrelevant to most BtVS fans), Riley has been the overachiever stunted by Buffy. Once he gets away from Buffy, he once again enjoys the overachieving lifestyle that he once had before.

And that is basically where I pick it up and leave it off relating to Riley. Everyone else can torture themselves over what they viewed onscreen. I'll just enjoy what I saw.
[> Hell's Bells -- lunasea, 18:26:41 03/06/03 Thu

This one is going to be pretty short. I could go into the symbolism of Xander (heart) and Anya (practicality) aren't compatible, but that has little to do with Dark Night.

There is one line that does have to do with Buffy's Dark Night:

They were (happy). I know they were. They were supposed to be my light at the end of the tunnel. I guess they were a train.

We get Buffy is still looking for happiness and that Xander/Anya aren't a way to get there. Yet another thing she was counting on that didn't work. Dark Night continues.

In this episode Xander is the one that kills the demon (forshadowing Grave).

Quickly to go through the episode (only one page of notes):

Brides' maids dresses are hideous. A comment about appearances (made me think of what I looked like when I was going through Dark Night) Anya (practicality) thinks they look good. They don't.

Buffy is trying to make cummerbund fit around Xander. "It fit when I picked up the tux. How could it not fit now?" Buffy's response "It'll fit." Her Slayer strength saves the day. Xander has outgrown his cummerbund and is stuffed into it. Can't be comfortable. Buffy's heart has outgrown what she allows it to do and she forces herself into the roles she has to play.

An aside, after The Gift, Buffy's heart has grown (or been freed). She never acknowledges the change that occurs on the platform. Instead she fixates on coming back from heaven being the cause of her discontent. It isn't leaving heaven that is hell. It is being love on that platform and then going back to ego when she is resurrected. She comes out of the grave when she realizes that she is this love and shatters ego. She goes back in when she doubts this.

When she leaves Spike in "As You Were" she is happy. Watch to see what causes Buffy to be happy, S6 or 7. She is actually happy when she is being loving. When she isn't, she isn't. Key to Buffy's happiness lies in everything but that love being burned away. She needs to learn that nothing but being loving will make her happy. That is how she will get out of the Dark Night. Not by being the Slayer or Dawn's caretaker. Just by being loving.

There was something fitting about Buffy being the one to help Xander get dressed, rather than Willow. While that is going on Willow is reconnecting with Tara. It was beautiful.

Spike/Buffy interaction. Shadow is having a hard time, since it has lost its power over Buffy. Buffy makes Spike feel a little better, being loving again, even if it is to say that she is hurt (which I am not sure she is completely, I think she just said it then to make him feel better, a lot like lying to Riley). This makes her happy.

Buffy entertains the wedding guests while the Heart is absent. She pretty much feels that way all season. Heart is missing and she is just entertaining folks. I like the juggling. She does juggle a lot.

That is all I wrote down. There are plenty of other levels to this episode, but I want to keep on the topic of this thread.
[> Normal Again -- lunasea, 18:31:16 03/06/03 Thu

Please don't make me watch this episode again. Talk about obvious. The writers had to eat a psych book to write this season, so we have to have an obvious psych episode. I didn't mind the whole "Body Double" feel to it.

What I didn't like was this episode was more blatant than "Older and Far Away." For those who don't know, Buffy is going through some stuff and is depressed. Like DUH!!!! There were more subtle ways they could have written the necessary revelation. I watched it again. I didn't like it, but I watched it. The editing was impressive, but still, I don't like this episode.

Feel free to debate which Buffy is real. I don't really care. Shouldn't I care? An episode that doesn't make me care is not a good episode. Interesting premise, but poorly executed (pretty good description of S6 in general)

We have heart (Xander) and practicality (Anya) at odds. We have fear/insecurity (Willow) afraid to talk to higher conscious (Tara). Buffy is a mess. Can't we just title this episode "Buffy is a mess, like DUH"? Do we really need the psych coma to tell us that?

I have gone into the symbolism of the various characters to death and undeath at this point. If I do it again, I will just be repeating myself and will take up waaaay too much bandwidth. Hopefully if you are reading this post, you have read the rest of the thread.

The components of Buffy's psyche are not getting along, so we get the psych Buffy. Watch to see what is going on in the show that causes psych Buffy to come around. It is so obvious, once you know what to look for, that I don't feel like writing about it.

Now for the dark night. Doctor says: The Slayer, right, but that's only one level. She's also created an intricate latticework to support her primary delusion. In her mind, she's the central figure in a fantastic world beyond imagination. (Buffy staring into the distance, frowning) She's surrounded herself with friends, most with their own superpowers ... who are as real to her as you or me. More so, unfortunately. Together they face ... grand overblown conflicts against an assortment of monsters both imaginary and rooted in actual myth. Every time we think we're getting through to her, more fanciful enemies magically appear-

The Dark Night shows us that this is basically what we do. Our ego isn't real. It is one level of our delusion. Then we create other delusions to support this. Our entire psyche is made up, the shadow, the ego, heart, practicality, fear, everything. Real joy (health) will not be found in any of them. It comes from the only thing that is real, the higher conscious (often projected outwards as God).

Buffy's delusions are just another ego. She is escaping from Sunnydale to psyche Buffy, trading one ego for another. As she learns at the end, you will not find happiness trying to escape. She couldn't find happiness with Spike and she won't find it in an asylum.

More Dr speak: Buffy inserted Dawn into her delusion, actually rewriting the entire history of it to accommodate a need for a familial bond. (to Buffy) Buffy, but that created inconsistencies, didn't it? (Buffy staring at him) Your sister, your friends, all of those people you created in Sunnydale, they aren't as comforting as they once were. Are they? They're coming apart.

Buffy is learning that her ego has inconsistancies and this is what leads to the Dark Night. All the roles she plays aren't as satisfying as being love on that platform. They aren't as satisfying as being the loving individual she is. Buffy isn't happy unless she is being loving. Her ego won't let her be this way.

Dr:Buffy, you used to create these grand villains to battle against, and now what is it? Just ordinary students you went to high school with. (Buffy staring at him) No gods or monsters ... just three pathetic little men ... who like playing with toys

The components of Buffy's manufactured ego are loosing (just like Spike did earlier). She is very close to being what she actually is, rather than a label she is trying to live up to.

Buffy was once in a clinic. The hallucinations have strength because they are based on the past. Same thing with ego. It is based on our past actions, rather than the shifting ball of possibilities we are.

We get Buffy tying up all her friends in order to let the demon kill them. I have repeatedly said that you cannot destroy ego or any other component of personality. You have to discard it like an unneeded overcoat.

Buffy learns this. Realization happens, now lets see how it translates to the rest of the season.

I could go into each character's symbolism. How they were captured by Buffy, the lines they said, etc. By now, I bet anyone following this thread could do it for themselves.

Next episode. Let's see how Buffy applies what she has learned.
[> Entropy -- lunasea, 18:35:18 03/06/03 Thu

Start with the title. I like titles (one day I am going to do a thread analyzing each one). They show important things or draw attention to important things.

It is both a measurement of chaos and the tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. We tend to look at it as deterioriation, but it is deterioration towards a state of natural equilibrium. Buffy is getting to the end of her Dark Night.

F/x didn't show Normal Again. Entropy doesn't naturally flow from Hell's Bells. It does flow from what Buffy figured out in Normal Again. As bad as the writers were at showing Buffy's Dark Night/depression (and SMG didn't exactly understand it either), they were great with the recovery. S6 is worth it for Entropy on.

The interaction with Spike at the beginning is great. She isn't staking Spike, just outgrowing her need for him. Spike says she needs him. He is wrong.

Poor Spikey thinks that she won't sleep with him because of what her friends will think. He doesn't understand that Buffy cannot sleep with someone she doesn't love. He doesn't understand that she doesn't love him. He doesn't understand her and he cannot love what he doesn't understand. He loves (if I concede that, can we move beyond it?) the form that is Buffy Summers, not what she really is.

Lots of Tara/Willow stuff and Xander/Anya stuff. Things are getting back to their natural state (which doesn't bode well for Anya this season). Spike is going back to his natural state also. Dawn and Buffy are bonding.

Hubby and I said the same thing "No more pancakes! Make eggs for a change." We do get great interaction with Dawn and Buffy. We also set up the realization in Grave. Buffy is trying to protect Dawn and won't let her hang with her on patrol. Not quite out of the Dark Night, but getting there.

Big step for ego. It doesn't want Buffy to bend to her. Instead ego wants to fit into Buffy's life. Incredibly beautiful moment, well written and well acted. It also reminded me to go get the tissues (I tend to cry more for happy things).

Anya (one part of the personality) tries to get the other parts to wish for vengeance. At the end, even she doesn't want to. Buffy's love has infected every aspect of her personality (will get shadow in Seeing Red). Dark Night can see those rays just ready to pierce the night sky.

Great interaction between Buffy and Spike. Spike's love for Buffy is shadow love. That is real to him, but not to her. Her love is what happens on that platform. It is what keeps her from telling Riley that she tried to stop him. It is what let her let Angel leave. Her love is completely non-manipulative and only interested in what is best for the other person. Only that type of love is real to Buffy (and me)

The camera was a nice play of the visibility theme that runs throughout the show. It comes out what Spike and Buffy have been doing. Dawn is actually nice about it. Willow isn't horrible. The only one who can't handle it is Xander (heart).

Love is our link to the higher conscious. The heart is our link to love. Out of all the components of personality, heart is going to have the hardest time. It was what was defiled, dragged into the dirt. But even the heart can let go, in the remaining episodes.

Xander has an image of Buffy. Spike and Buffy do not fit that image. Xander has to realize like Riley did "Buffy, none of that means anything. It doesn't touch you." It does happen.

Things are returning to their natural order (which means fasten your seatbelt people. this ain't over yet).

Best cry, Tara's speech to Willow. " It's a long... important process, and ... can we just skip it? Can-can you just be kissing me now? "

That is the Dark Night. It seems like this long, important process, but really we can just skip it and enter into union with the higher conscious.

So hang on folks. The ride is going to get bumpy as the components of Buffy's personality try to assert themselves one last desperate time.
[> Seeing Red -- lunasea, 18:40:31 03/06/03 Thu

Time for the components of personality to try one last time to assert themselves.

Great opening. Contrast:
WILLOW: When did morning happen?
TARA: After the moon went down.

with Wrecked:

BUFFY: (frowning) When ... (looks down at Spike) When did the building fall down?
SPIKE: (looks around, frowns) I don't know. (Buffy looking alarmed) Must have been sometime between the first time and the, uh...

Whole lot of symbolism, dark, moon yada yada. You've heard it before. I am not LUNAsea for nothing.

The cast's reactions to Spuffy are more about Buffy not telling Willow or Xander, rather than her sleeping with the evil undead. Each part of personality wants to be dominant and in the loop. However, there is concern/love there, not just you didn't tell me. It is a far cry from "Dead Man's Party." Love is infecting everyone.

So we get fear/insecurity (Willow) "merging" with the higher conscious (Tara) and ego (Dawn) being thrilled. Ego is even going to remove herself from the picture so fear and higher conscious can continue merging, loudly if they want.

One thing I want to say about AB, she plays an incredibly difficult role and does a great job with it. JM has plenty of meat to work with. He can play with his role and does a great job, but often the most skill comes from being able to play the higher conscious and the heart showing in it. AB does this. The woman who played Sam didn't. Neither does CC. Riley came off as adequate. As much flack as DB gets for not being as talented as JM, DB does hit this note incredibly well. His own heart shines through in his performance. It makes women around the world want him, not just Angel, but the actor that is nice enough to play Angel without it seeming phoney. JM is an incredibly talented actor, but if I were to pick a neighbor or friend based on what notes they hit, I would want DB, AB and AH. That has nothing to do with looks.

Back to Seeing Red. Just wanted to say that AB does a great job with Tara and that isn't an easy role.

I find the relationship between Dawn and Spike to be interesting. Shadow feels protective of ego. Ego likes shadow. Ego wants shadow around (until it finds out what Shadow does this episode). Ego and shadow cannot exist without each other. Without Spike, Dawn would have been dead a while ago. Without Dawn, Spike never would have become an almost-Scoobie or earned Buffy's respect and gratitude.

We get Ego visiting Shadow and telling him that he can't love Buffy, if he hurt her like that (which is what I keep saying). Shadow retorts that he is justified because Buffy hurts him. Ego knows that doesn't excuse it. Love doesn't make excuses.

The Trio find the orbs and Warren becomes a mini-Willow. Little bad always mirrors the Big Bad and is a lesser variation on the theme. Doesn't have to much to do with this thread though.

Buffy goes to see heart (Xander). Heart feels bad that she didn't feel like he could be there for her and instead turned to Spike. That is heart's job, be there for people (which he does in Grave). Buffy tires to excuse her actions by comparing them to Xander leaving Anya at the altar (just like Spike tried to excuse his earlier), but Xander won't fall for it. In case the audience forgot "slaughtering half of Europe wasn't one of them. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working? Would you still trust him with Dawn then?"

Debate it all you want, but Spike is still a vampire. Xander sees this. In this exchange, he sort of gives a thumbs up to Angel. He DOES have a soul.

I have to admit the "part fish" comment made me laugh. I remembered what almost happened in "Go Fish."

So now we get every Spike and Spuffy shippers favorite scene. (sarcasm is good)

Shadow tries once more to assert control. This scene has been analyzed to death, and I am only going to focus on one part. Buffy says "Because I stopped you. Something I should have done a long time ago." Smashed is mutual rape. In Seeing Red, Buffy's side of the equation is gone, so it isn't mutual. It isn't some scene written because of the tremendous Spuffy support to to remind people that Spike is an EVIL VAMPIRE. It shows the dynamics of their relationship.

Buffy understood these dynamics, which is why she says, "Ask me again why I could never love you. " She understood what sex was to him, a way to get something from her. He is incapable of seeing what is wrong with this. He thinks that creatures should give into passion, be love's bitches. He doesn't care what it does to the other party. He sees nothing wrong with using another or being used. He doesn't care that being with him is killing Buffy. He just wants her. That is shadow.

So someone tell me why she should love him, beyond general compassion and charity she has for everything?

Heart finds Shadow has been there. First reaction is that Buffy is lying to him again. Then he finds out Shadow hurt Buffy. This brings out his heart and concern.

Shadow's last ditch attempt to stay in Buffy's life didn't work. He comes up with another last ditch attempt. More on this in Grave, where we find out what that attempt is.

Warren and Buffy's fight is very symbolic. He thinks he is a "real man" because he is invinceable. 1) it takes more than that to be a "real man" and 2) it isn't real. It is his "orbs." Buffy defeats him by smashing the orbs and returning him to his natural state.

This whole season could have been called Entropy. It was about each character getting so wacked that the only place they had left to go was his or her natural state. With Buffy, that lead through her Dark Night to the end of Grave. Another good title for S6 would be "It's Always Darkest Before the Dawn."

We get a nice exchange between Heart and Buffy. He is starting to accept his place in Buffy's life, just like Dawn did earlier. Then Heart has to open his big mouth "I don't know what I'd do ... without you and Will." None of the components can exist (as components) unless they are in relation to each other. That is why each fight for their survival in the Dark Night.

In terms of the show, though, each component of Buffy's personality is also a character. If heart has to exist on his own, he needs to develop the other parts of *his* personality. The show tends to be about this, so characters tend to get isolated. I have been analyzing this season from the perspective of Buffy. Next I will do Willow. This show is an ensemble cast (unlike Angel) and can be viewed from each character's perspective. If I get reallly bored, I will do Xander (though Angel will probably be next)

I hope no one thinks I feel this is the only perspective. I have left off entire scenes in my analysis. That is because those pertain to other themes. I am just trying to show one perspective and be remotely linear (something that is very difficult for me).

So now we go to Villans.
[> Villains -- lunasea, 18:44:09 03/06/03 Thu

First thing I am going to do is spell the title correctly. Even with spell check, my spelling is my weakest point. Feel free to laugh at it. I even do.

Buffy's Dark Night is nearing an end, so we concentrate more on what is going on with Willow. Great!!! Getting tired of Buffy any way.

Who couldn't predict that Willow would be the Big Bad S6? Once the Trio were the established Little Bads, it was easy to see who was going to the be BIG bad. Same thing with this season. Once the Big Bad was established, the Little Bad was a natural.

After BtVS is over, I hope ME releases a book where THEY go over this stuff. What I wouldn't give to sit in on one story meeting. If that was on the DVD, I would be in heaven.

So onto Villains. Tara has to die. That in inevitable. Angel has to leave. Giles has to leave. The new-improved Riley has to leave. Tara was either going to leave or die. If she was there, characters wouldn't be figuring things out for themselves. Once the watery tart throws a sword at you, she fades into the background.

Willow was not strong enough yet, evidenced by what happens. Willow wasn't fully a person. In order to ME to make her into one, Tara has to be eliminated. Tara came back and everything was ok for Willow. It is just like Angel and Buffy. Angel has the curse to take him out of Buffy's life. Tara got a bullet to the chest. (after Buffy and Angel get their acts together, however, they don't have to be apart)

Heart goes with Buffy rather than stay with distraught Willow. Heart cannot do anything for Buffy, but he has to be with her. The bullet hit her near the heart.

Ego comes home, not knowing what has happened. No one thought to tell her. Ego out of the loop, again. She finds higher conscious dead.

Buffy tries to assert control, but fear has it. "We need to stop. I don't like this." "But this isn't right. Okay, this isn't how I want it." Buffy keeps trying to stop fear (Willow), but she cannot.

Then they find out why Willow has gone all black-eyed and veiny. Before they thought is was about Buffy. Fear is upset that higher conscious has been murdered.

Buffy tries to rationalize with fear (in the end only heart works). Fear is not going to let any component, or Buffy herself disuade her from her mission, even if "I'm not coming back."

Nice touching scene between ego and Buffy about death of higher conscious. Ego wants Warren dead. Without higher conscious there, ego has decided to reassert herself also (which culminates in Grave). Dawn isn't infected with love any more. With the death of higher conscious, we lost ego and fear. Buffy's psyche is really fighting for their survival. Heart follows. It is weird to see Buffy as the only rational person.

Buffy's speech about why they can't kill Buffy shows how well she does understand humanity's position to the PTB. She understands that there are rules, just not why there are. I think that won't come until S7. It is important, so here is what she said

BUFFY: So the human world has its own rules for dealing with people like him.
XANDER: Yeah, we all know how well those rules work.
BUFFY: Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. We can't control the universe. If we were supposed to ... then the magic wouldn't change Willow the way it does. And ... we'd be able to bring Tara back.
DAWN: (very quietly) And Mom.
BUFFY: There are limits to what we can do. There should be. Willow doesn't want to believe that. And now she's messing with forces that want to hurt her. All of us.
XANDER: I just ... I've had blood on my hands all day. (looks Buffy in the eye) Blood from people I love.
BUFFY: I know. And now it has to stop. Warren's going to get what he deserves. I promise . But I will *not* let Willow destroy herself.

This will factor into S7, I bet.

Buffy needs to find somewhere safe to leave ego while she deals with fear. They find out that shadow is gone. But where....

Interesting turn with Shadow. He has gone to seek out a legend., but for what....

They go to the Magic Box and find out that practicality is back into vengeance again. Can't really deal with that now. Dealing with fear is more important. Fear is the final obsticle to the dawn that follows Dark Night.

Willow is a tad more invinceable than Warren and his orbs were.

Is it just me, or are my posts getting shorter?
[> Two to Go -- lunasea, 18:46:46 03/06/03 Thu

Almost done. I hope that people have gotten something out of this thread, besides a way to kill time.

Two to Go.

Heart is physically ill from what fear did. Fear tries to prevent Buffy and heart from getting there by trashing heart's vehicle. Buffy has to abandon heart in order to get to the jail. Practicality beats fear to the jail. Fear isn't quite as strong as she is going to be. Practicality can't do anything there.

Ego wants to know why she isn't part of the action. Is she weak? Incapable? Ego is going to help.

Cut to Spike and the Trial. Some Trials. Angel's were better, but then again he wasn't a self-aborbed evil blood sucking fiend. The hand on fire were too obvious. Anyone else tired of how much they use this symbol? Why not just flash a red light (bravo if you get the reference)

And then Buffy makes the mistake which is why she doesn't save the day: I'm not protecting you, Jonathan. None of us are. We're doing this for Willow. The only reason it happens to be your lucky day? Is because Willow kills you, she crosses a line, I lose a friend. (gets right up in Jonathan's face) And I hate losing.

She doesn't understand the rules of the universe, she just follows them. She will (S7) We all like Jonathan. He isn't a bad guy, just caught up in a bad situation. He even saved Buffy from Warren. She forgot that already.

Fear has transcended fear. She has gone beyond vengeance. She has become power/control and dominance. That is one way to overcome fear. This shows in her interaction with ego/Dawn.

Ego doesn't have the heart to be able to actually reach dominance. She acknowledges feelings, but cannot use them to end the situation. Instead dominance is going to end her. She dismisses Dawn's feelings so she doesn't have to feel herself. But Buffy saves Dawn, again.

We get an incredibly touching moment with Xander (Anya is irrelevant). "You think I don't know that? You think I'm the hero of this piece? (upset) I saw the gun. Before Warren raised it, I ... I saw it, and I couldn't move. He shot two of my friends ... before I could even.... You want me to know how useless I am? That it's my fault? Thanks. Already got the memo. "

Can you imagine Buffy saying this? Of course you can, she has about all sorts of things--sending Angel to hell, Glory getting Dawn, Katrinia, just off the top of my head. Every failure that Buffy has, she takes to heart. It is her heart, represented by Xander, that makes her this way. Heart is our link to love. Get a direct line, and we don't need it or the doubt/blame it causes.

We get one of the best entrances in the history of TV (hopefully topped by this season), Giles: I'd like to test that theory.

More on that in Grave.

Having fun kiddies?
[> Grave -- lunasea, 18:50:46 03/06/03 Thu

Joss was too busy to write the season finale, but Fury did a great job. It never ceases to amaze me how a coherent show can result from so many different writers.

The Gift opens will ALL of BtVS, a total series recap. The Grave opens with nothing. Other than Welcome to the Hellmouth (since there was nothing to recap), I don't think this has ever happened. Great contrast.

Who didn't scream when Giles showed up in "Two To Go," even if you were spoiled? Are you dead or something? This episode we get to learn what he has brought to test Willow's theory that there is nothing that can stop her. More on that when we get to it.

Keep in mind that Giles is representative of the Higher Conscious. He went away so that Buffy could find her own way to it. Same thing with Angel (think it was easy for him to leave her after seeing the state she was in this season? If you do, are you dead or something?)

He comes back when the Scoobies need him. The Coven, a major link to the PTB, told him that a dark power has risen in Sunnydale. Abandonment would have been if he hadn't come back when he was needed. Leave Giles alone.

Gotta love that Giles comments on Buffy's hair. What a great segue into "mundane" life. Just because he has come to contain/help Willow, doesn't mean he can't deal with mundane reality. Buffy needs to learn that.

One of the best moments of the entire episode is his reaction to Buffy sleeping with Spike. It is no big whoop. He just laughs it off. To the higher conscious, what is a big deal? Not sleeping with the evil undead. Even Buffy realizes how ridiculous it was. It isn't the end of the world. It is something bizarre that happened that she can recover from. It was a beautiful moment (not sleeping with Spike. Giles and Buffy's interaction).

He laughed off Normal Again. Another great reaction. Giles put everything in perspective.

When she is talking to Giles, it reminded me of Angel talking to him in Amends. "I don't understand...why I'm back." What is my purpose? It is something we all tend to ask. The First could play Angel because he didn't understand, didn't know why he was back (anyone want to bet the First didn't bring him back?). Buffy was lost because she didn't understand her place in everything.

We can go back and analyze the series from this perspective: Buffy's purpose. Why Buffy is here has asserted itself every season. With SMG leaving this season, want to bet we get more of an answer to it (either there is no answer, like they say in Angel) or what Buffy's purpose (beyond Slayer) is.

Dominance gets Buffy to leave higher conscious to save heart and ego. (If you are getting tired of the double speak, Willow sends bit ball of fire after geeks and those who are with them, so Buffy has to leave Giles to protect Dawn and Xander).

Now we have the ultimate battle of good and evil, dominance/power/control/evil vs higher conscious/good. S7 should be amazing to top this. Giles taunts Willow into needing a little "pick-me-up." We find out what he has to test Willow's theory.

It isn't what he has, but what she has. No human gives up every shred of their humanity in the Jossverse. We have yet to find a loss cause. Giles carries the "true essence of magic." What that is I talked about on the What is the First thread. Giles' taps into that so that Heart can reach her. It is incredibly beautiful, but unfortunately not what this thread is about.

Buffy ends up in a grave with ego. Dominance put her there. Actually fear put her there. Fear has become dominance, but it is still fear at its core.

Ego yells at Buffy for not telling her what Shadow has done. (Which is pretty amusing if you think about it). While Ego and Buffy are having their heart to heart, Heart goes away to save the day.

I am going to save the Willow stuff for the Willow thread. It applies here, but that thread needs something good

I am going to save the realization at the end for the conclusion.

But then comes Spike. Shadow being shadow isn't going to get him Buffy. His last ditch effort is to become something he is not.

S7 we will find out how foolish he was.
[> Before the Dark Night - conclusion part 1 (already been posted ) -- lunasea, 18:55:52 03/06/03 Thu

Let's see if this message is as fun to write as I think it will be. Couldn't have written it a few weeks ago. You will notice my interpretation has changed dramatically.

To see the conclusion of Buffy's Dark Night, we have to go back to the platform in "The Gift." I left off the first 2 episodes of S6 and what precipitated Buffy's Dark Night. It is really easy to say "being ripped from heaven" but that is a plot device and easy thing for people to use to explain away her depression.

Few people ever do get to the Dark Night. You have to come pretty far in order to get to it. The dark night occurs after considerable advancement toward higher consciousness. If you see "The Gift" as Buffy's get-out-of-misery-free card then nothing I said probably struck you. It might be an impressive display of analysis, but that is about it.

Joss wrote and directed "The Gift." It was his baby. It starts with a summary of Buffy's life and ends with her death. Nothing I have seen on the show or heard Joss say would lead me to believe that he would let his hero die in a fit of dispair. Nothing from that amazing moment when she does die leads me to believe that she died in a fit of dispair.

There was plenty that happened in her life that would cause her to dispair. Dracula tells her that her power is rooted in darkness. She has a death wish. Riley leaves. Joyce dies. Angel leaves, again. Thing is, I don't think that was to get Buffy so distraught that she wants to die. I am sure that most here would barely be able to recover from all of that and it would cause you to want to end it. If the chance presented itself, you might.

But Buffy is a hero. She isn't like you or me, as Giles tells Ben. All that dispair makes the moment when she realizes she can love that much more poignant. Think Scarlett O'Hara digging in the dirt vowing that she will never go hungry again. Would that have been a big deal if she was sitting at a 12 course meal?

All that dispair makes Buffy think that she cannot love. I believe we can take what the Guide says to be canon. We cannot accept Spike or any other normal character as unfailable, but things like Whistler or the Oracles are.

"Intervention" sets up S6. It is written by Jane Espenson. She writes 6.03-6.05. That doesn't happen. Two writers get 2 episodes back to back (Marti and Joss), but 3 is unheard of. The Guide's message is so crucial that it is the title of S5's finale. This cannot just be dismissed.

Buffy does. So does a lot of the audience. If you want a fun show for escape, that works. If that is what you want, why read this monstrosity of a thread? Buffy focuses on the death part. So does the audience. That isn't the whole message.

FIRST SLAYER: You think you're losing your ability to love.
BUFFY: I-I didn't say that. (sighs) Yeah.
FIRST SLAYER: You're afraid that being the Slayer means losing your humanity.
BUFFY: Does it?
FIRST SLAYER: You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.
BUFFY: (surprised) I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?
FIRST SLAYER: Only if you reject it. Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift.
BUFFY: (pause) What?
BUFFY: I-I'm sorry, I, I'm just a little confused. I'm full of love, which is nice, and ... love will lead me to my gift?
FIRST SLAYER: Yes.
BUFFY: I'm getting a gift? Or, or do you mean that, that I have a gift to give to someone else?
FIRST SLAYER: Death is your gift.
BUFFY: Death ...
FIRST SLAYER: Is your gift.
BUFFY: Okay, no. Death is not a gift. My mother just died. I know this. If I have to kill demons because it makes the world a better place, then I kill demons, but it's not a gift to anybody.

First, the question that everyone has been asking is answered, and few realize this. What does the soul do? The soul contains our humanity. That much is canon, but what does this mean? According to the Guide "Love." Notice the transition from humanity to love. To her they are one and the same. The soul is what you love with. I am sure this will be expanded on S7.
Second, the Guide never says whether Buffy is getting a gift or giving one or why it is a gift. A gift has to be given. If Buffy's death is a gift to her, her get-out-of-misery-free card, who gave it to her? The PTB? If this is the case, either Willow couldn't bring her back or there would be serious consequences to Willow. Somehow I don't think you get away taking away something the PTB have gifted to someone, if it can be taken away.

This message is too important to S5-7 to just dismiss it with Buffy's dispair. They are a trilogy.

This message comes back to Buffy as she is standing on the platform. She doesn't look too happy about the prospect of dying. If it is such a get-out-of-misery free card and wants to die, why isn't she happy about this?

Then something dawns on Buffy. Joss doesn't tell us things. He shows them. Actually SMG shows them and she does a great job. If Buffy' dying now is her gift, then that means she CAN love. Her ability to love will lead to her gift, it is leading her to her gift on that platform. If that part of the voiceover was included, it would have been obvious and cheesy. Instead what Joss wrote was amazing and moving. Tissues all around.

Instead of her jumping up and down going "I CAN love" that is what her final words are all about, love. Words that felt weird for her to say and led her to find the Guide are her parting words to everyone.

Buffy's voice over is

Dawn, listen to me. Listen.
I love you. I will *always* love you.
But this is the work that I have to do.
Tell Giles ... tell Giles I figured it out. And, and I'm okay.
And give my love to my friends.
You have to take care of them now.
You have to take care of each other.
You have to be strong.
Dawn, the hardest thing in this world ... is to live in it.
Be brave. Live.
For me.

People focus on the hardest thing in this world, not the love.

Compare what Buffy said to Dawn and what the Guide said to Buffy.

Guide:
Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature.

Buffy:
the hardest thing in this world ... is to live in it. Be brave. Live. For me.

How different are they?

Live..love. Just one little letter separates them.

At that platform, Buffy made considerable advancement towards the higher conscious.

That is what leads us to S6.
[> [> A hell in heaven's despite (Spoilers up to Selfess, BtVS, and Spoilers for AtS S3) -- Rahael, 05:27:57 03/07/03 Fri

"Love seeketh not Itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair."

So sang a little Clod of Clay
Trodden with the cattle's feet;
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:

"Love seeketh only Self to please,
To bind another to its delight;
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a Hell in Heaven's despite."

Blake

This poem describes my view of Spuffy. Both aspects of it. And I think it does have two aspects.

I like your focus on Love. Especially the closeness of 'live/love'. The wounded heart seems to recur again and again BtVS. Xander's heart punched out. Adam's heart pulled out. Riley cutting open his chest with a shard of glass. The monster in the basement's heart pulled out in Normal Again. Anya's heart pierced again and again in Selfless. The hearts she herself pulls out, and remember, she is graphically fullfilling the wish of a girl humiliated because of her love - her boyfriend laughs at her, in front of a roomful of men, and she wishes that they could feel what she felt. The metaphor made explicit by our literal vengeance demon. The danger is, will the pain of love leave our hearts hardened and calcified, or can we transform it, as Buffy does in S5? Will living, being alive, will it leave us open, compassionate, loving human beings, or cold, hardened and closed?

And to link it to AtS, there is that amazing conversation between Darla and Angel in Season 2 where Darla talks about the insistent beat of her heart, a beat which she cannot bear, and Angel tells her that it is a wonderful thing, a sign that she is alive. Live - Love - Darla cannot bear these feelings. Caring for others. Seeing her face in the mirror. Connor, the baby she carries within her, later becomes a symbol of that same heart - one of the ways AI can tell he is human is that he has a beating heart, and he enables Darla to feel love, and by the end, she cannot bear to lose it. She cannot bear to go back to a life where she lacks this heart. And she stakes herself, to let the human, loving, heart of herself go on living in the world. (Just an aside, saw Apocalypse Nowish last night, no spoilers, just had to say, Connor tears my heart out. So, so adorable!)

I'd be interested to hear more about 'the dark night' - why do you think Buffy's narrative requires it? You may have already made this clear, but I'd like to see an explicit version.
[> [> [> Re: A hell in heaven's despite (Spoilers up to Selfess, BtVS, and Spoilers for AtS S3) -- lunasea, 07:10:41 03/07/03 Fri

I'd be interested to hear more about 'the dark night' - why do you think Buffy's narrative requires it? You may have already made this clear, but I'd like to see an explicit version.

Actually, I don't think it requires this. The reason I did this (I don't know how many hours it took originally) was because I HATED season 6 first time around. Buffy had this amazing realization on the platform and she came back and was none-the-better for it. I was almost beginning to agree that Buffy died in a fit of dispair in "The Gift," though everything SMG did contradicted this. I couldn't fathom Joss letting his hero die this way, especially since it might have been the end of the series.

In most stories, when the hero comes back from some amazing revelation, they go on to make the world a better place. That would have been the next step. Joss diverted from this for an entire season. At most we would get Jesus' "Agony in the Garden" or Buddha's doubts about his ability to convey the Dharma to others.

But not Buffy. Did ME have to give us an entire season of this? Not really, but they did. They explored what happens after you comes to this realization. It was rather bold, but outside the realm of most people's experience. I think they should have focused on Willow and put Buffy on top of that, rather than vice-versa.

Why does the Dark Night come at all? love-pain-strength. When Buffy realizes how much she loves, she can't be "cold, hardened and closed." That is a common misperception of S6 that I think even SMG had. Buffy wasn't cold, she was numb. She didn't close herself off. She was so bombarded with everything, that she was frayed. She did a great job showing this in "Bargaining." Also, think Buffy in "Earshot" or Cordy in "To Shanshu in LA." I am not sure how much that came across this season.

Buffy's interactions with Dawn did the best at showing this, but by the time those came I think most people saw Buffy as cold and cut-off and didn't get what Buffy was trying to say. Buffy didn't shut down. She was an exposed nerve.

Once Buffy realizes she is love, she can't be cold. She is now open to everyone's pain. She can't handle this until she finds out how to turn this pain into strength (with the Prayer of St. Francis). Some people go from love to strength without being overwhelmed by the pain. Buffy didn't. It was completely in her character to go through this stage.

Now whenever she isn't turning the pain of love into strength, we will see her go numb again. She figured it out in relation to Dawn, but let's see what it takes to figure it out on a broader scale.

AtS is going through something similar, though in reverse. Angel had love for the world and knows how to handle that side of pain of love to strength, but he isn't too good at the interpersonal stuff. Now ME has gotten him to love on that level and has loaded him down with pain. We will have to see what he does with that.
[> [> [> Quick question: comparing Darla to Spike -- lunasea, 12:42:23 03/07/03 Fri

he enables Darla to feel love, and by the end, she cannot bear to lose it. She cannot bear to go back to a life where she lacks this heart.

If this is the position of the Buffyverse on vampire and hearts, how can anyone say that a soulless Spike (who is a vampire) is capable of this heart? Spike doesn't negate Angel or vice versa and AtS doesn't negate BtVS or vice versa.

The Spirit Guide said to Buffy "You love with all of your soul." What does Spike love with?

Just curious how Spike fans see this. How do they explain Spike's ability to love or do they not care about an explanation and just assume if it looks like love, it must be? If the character says something, it must be true?

Not trying to be argumentative. Just really trying to understand this.


Also in regards to the heart of Buffy, vamps feed off of blood, that which the heart pumps throughout our bodies. I will have more on that later.
[> [> [> [> Quick question -- Rahael, 12:53:54 03/07/03 Fri

I am not a Spike fan at all, so I wouldn't be able to answer your question!!

I'll leave it to someone else who is more qualified, but they may not share my interpretation of hearts etc.
[> [> [> [> [> Ever think -- lunasea, 14:34:40 03/07/03 Fri

that there should be little letters after our names so people know our position on things, like the D's and R's after US Congresspeople?

I wonder if there is a Spike fan that shares our interpretation of hearts. I do agree with you. I think the Darla/Connor storyline really answered this question head on and did a beautiful thing with it. Between Darla and what the Spirit Guide said, I don't see how anyone can say the soulless is capable of that sort of heart. Without that heart, I won't call it love. There are other interactions.

I want Angel to show up and straighten Buffy out. Just cause it looks like love, doesn't mean it is. Actually, what I really want is for Spike to admit what he felt last season and to say that he understands the difference now. That would be amazing.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ever think -- Miss Edith, 15:10:00 03/07/03 Fri

I disagree. Angel and Darla both stated vampires can't love, but I didn't take that as meaning it applied to Spike as well. They were speaking from their own experiences, and can't be expected to represent all vampires. Spike's past was examined in FFL and we were shown the vunerable poets rejection by Cecily. Doug Petrie in the commentry for FFL points out that Spike has always been loves bitch and that carried over from when he was human. In Ats we have James and Elizabeth being all lovey dovey and Darla and Angelus not understanding them as they are demons and not supposed to love.

I would hate it if Spike with a soul suggested he had not loved Buffy in season 5 and 6. It was his love for her that inspired him to be selfless, otherwise the fact that vampires are soulles would mean his behaviour would make no sense. For example in Intervention Spike is willing to allow Glory to kill him rather than see Buffy or Dawn harmed. Again in The Gift he is self-sacrificing. He spends the summer feeling guilty because he is capable of experiencing love and human emotion, hence him taking care of Dawn to fullfil a promise. I would agree that his love was not always expressed in the healthiest of ways but I have always taken his feelings for Buffy as canon. In the script for The Gift I believe Joss has written that when Spike weeps for Buffy at the end he is brokenhearted at the loss of someone he truly loved. How would you explain Spike fighting alongside the scoobies and babysitting Dawn over the summer if you don't believe his love was real. To me him being in love is the only motivation that makes sense. His love was what inspired him to do good.

And regarding your point about little letters after our names I'm a Spike redemptionist and a former B/S shipper. I was annoyed when Spike was souled as I'm not a fan of Angel the character. I would have prefered if Spike could have been redemped in a different way from Angel (i.e less of the soul related brooding). I prefered Spike without a soul. That's the perspective I'm coming from anyway, make of it what you will.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Vampires and Love - A/D versus S/D -- Rahael, 15:13:19 03/07/03 Fri

That's Angelus/Darla versus Spike/Drusilla.

The problem is that there is a big contradiction. Drusilla tells us that Vampires can love, way back in S2. BUT. we also have a contradiction. Angel tells Darla that he was never happy with her. Couldn't be. Didn't have a soul. This couple were obsessed with each other, but didn't truly love. And this is a theme we find in Hearthrob - James and Elizabeth claimed they had true love, but it was an empty hollow kind of love. A love that sounded bigger than it actually was.

Now, because I'm so captured by the AtS story, and because this line of thinking fits into my views of the Buffyverse, and because Drusilla and Spike were so early on in the series I like thinking of it my way. However, the canon can also be used to disagree with it.

Clearly soulless Spike went to get a soul because he recognised a need for it. However, I know that a lot of people are going to say that you don't need a soul to love. I liked Season 6. I liked the themes. I could even work with Spuffy, because I saw it a certain way. I found it disturbing. I never thought it was romantic in the least. The high point of the romance was Intervention and OMWF, and after that, it was darkness for me. Plus, I found that a lot of the Spuffyishness coincided with the not-so-good, less compelling eps (but Dead Things and Seeing Red were very good).

To make clear some more of the unspoken letters after my name - I think love is a pretty amazing thing. I think it has its dark heart, but it also leads you straight into your own heart, makes you comfortable with yourself, it allows you to reach out to other people. Loving and being loved back is such a liberating experience. And not just romantic love, but the love you share with your family and your friends. It is something I am starting to learn over the last couple of years. Love didn't change me, it made me more myself than I ever was before.

there should be little letters after our names so people know our position on things, like the D's and R's after US Congresspeople?

LOL. Sometimes I think that would be safest, because there one can be, posting away merrily without realising god knows how many hot buttons one just pushed! (un)fortunately I am so opinionated and vocal that staying around here for any period of time lets you know exactly where I stand on most things.

If I were to ship Buffy with anyone, it's still going to be Angel, actually. There was a time when I stopped shipping them, but Angel has grown so much, I love the character more than I ever did before. And Buffy, you know. She's just great. It's simply a matter of putting two great people together. I do it for Wes and Gunn!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Vampires and Love - A/D versus S/D -- lunasea, 17:18:20 03/07/03 Fri

The problem is that there is a big contradiction. Drusilla tells us that Vampires can love, way back in S2.

It is only a contradiction if you take what the characters to say as what is true, rather than their perception. The hardest thing about writing (for me any way) is to find the voice of the character. This involves not only the way they talk, but the way they see things.

Darla, as a soulless vampire, tells Angel that she is the only thing that has ever loved him. Darla, under the effects of Connor's soul, says that the only thing she ever loved was Connor. In this supposed contradictions, a lot is revealed about vampires that we can then carry over to Spike.

Vampires think rather highly of themselves. They wouldn't think that humans could do anything better than they could. They think that what they feel is the real thing. Darla thinks she loved Angelus. Dru and Spike think they loved each other. Great observation about James and Elizabeth.

"Heartthrob" is the First episode of S3 AtS. That would be S6 BtVS. The episode deals with what real love is and how it reacts to death. When we see Spike in "After Life," how is he handling things? He is more like James than he is like Angel. Angel is held up as what love is. It was very touching how Spike knew how many days Buffy was dead and how lost he looks, but his grief is just as obsessive as his "love" was.

Spike really does think he loves Buffy. He has a dream in "Out of My Mind" and runs with it. Few debates about whether Spike can love Buffy deal with that dream. The interpretation of that dream is crucial to understanding Spike's actions. It starts the whole thing off. It turns Spike's obsession about killing Buffy into an obsession about kissing her. Since when are dreams in the Buffyverse literal? The flow of that episode does not give me a literal interpretation of that dream. That dream happened in the context of an episode. All actions should be examined in the context of the episode they occured in.

The writers explored how the chip was conditioning Spike. Spike's idea that he loved Buffy did the same thing. He believes himself to be love's bitch. He acted accordingly. He was conditioned by that dream and his subsequent actions to fall deeper and deeper in love with her.

Real love he wouldn't be capable of. Self-sacrifice because he felt that is what he should do, yep. Spike doesn't have a conscience (I hope people can at least agree on that). He doesn't know what he "should" do. He doesn't have feelings that can drive this. Instead he has his image of what Buffy would want and what he should do if he loves her.

Then we come to "Seeing Red." He goes in thinking that what he is doing is in Buffy's best interest. He is going to make her feel. It will be good for her. The strength of her reaction lets him know this really isn't what she wants. It isn't in her best interest.

Spike has been conditioned to see WWBD as his conscience. "Why didn't I?" Because Buffy's desires control him. He is love's bitch because of 2 years of conditioning. The only way he is even going to get things to change is to get his own conscience. Then *he* will know what is best. He won't do things that he thinks are in Buffy's best interest that aren't. He will be able to give her what she deserves, because he will understand what she deserves.

A lot of people are going to say that you don't need a soul to love. Most of these people are also upset that Spike got a soul. How can you love someone you can't even see? Spike doesn't understand what Buffy deserves because he can't see her. He sees her as the Slayer, the one that can hit him the hardest. He doesn't understand why playing in the dark with him was killing her. He doesn't understand why she had to turn herself in when she thought she killed Katrina. He doesn't understand her.

Without his soul, Spike couldn't see Buffy. Angelus couldn't and Angel understands Buffy better than anyone. Angelus thought all his taunting would make things harder, but as she says in "Innocence" "He is only making things easier." Vampires can see our darkness, and as such offer us a perception of ourselves that we don't often get. However, they can't see the good in us, so their perception is limited.

Especially when it comes to Buffy Anne Summers. She is mostly good. If Spike can't see that, he can't see her. If he can't see her, he can't love her. He has vampire love for the Slayer. He is incapable of true love for Buffy.

To make clear some more of the unspoken letters after my name - I think love is a pretty amazing thing. I think it has its dark heart, but it also leads you straight into your own heart, makes you comfortable with yourself, it allows you to reach out to other people. Loving and being loved back is such a liberating experience. And not just romantic love, but the love you share with your family and your friends. It is something I am starting to learn over the last couple of years. Love didn't change me, it made me more myself than I ever was before.

I love that and I agree completely. When I get into vamp bloodlust I will elaborate on my own feelings about love.

but Angel has grown so much, I love the character more than I ever did before. And Buffy, you know. She's just great.

I think most people who are against Buffy and Angel think that if they were together it would be a regression back to what they were. Love grows as the people in it do. What they have become would be amazing together. It would be even better than IWRY.

I have one line I would love to hear in the finale. Buffy is talking to Angel about how much she has changed and from her tone you can tell she doesn't feel its for the better. He tells her "You haven't changed. You have just grown into the woman I always knew you would be."
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Quick question: comparing Darla to Spike -- lunasea, 15:14:24 03/07/03 Fri

But Darla is afraid of loosing the feeling and not caring about Connor any more when she gives birth. She knows the difference between souled and unsouled feelings.

When asked if Spike loves Buffy, Joss always gave the same answer. "He really really REALLY loves her." It was an obsessive love.

There has to be a difference between souled feelings and unsouled ones. With Angelus that love translates to a passionate obsession that Angelus can't control so he is going to free himself by sending everyone to Hell. When he is in Buffy's bedroom it is totally creepy in a tender sort of way, the way he brushed the hair from Buffy's sleeping face. Gives me the shivers thinking about it.

It made me ask what would turn those beautiful feelings he had earlier into something creepy. That would be the root of evil. That is one thing the shows really explore.

It really depends on what you are willing to call love. I don't lump all affection under the umbrella of love. If I do that, what meaning does love have? If it is affection, I call it that. What did the Judge say that Spike had for Dru, "affection and jealousy." Angel's voice-overs in "Passion" were great. Others don't agree with me on this.

I'm a huge Joss fan also. I am looking forward to the biography coming out. I would say that Joss doesn't equate the capability to what some may call love with goodness or the soul, but he does say that the real sort of caring like Darla/Connor or Angel/Buffy does require it.

Spike was the writers exploring various human interactions. Spike wasn't going to be capable of true love. What about other kinds? "In his own sick, soulless way" isn't really a Hallmark Card. Could Spike actually care about Buffy or did it just look that way? What does our heart add to us?

With Angel we know the love came first and as Angelus he was just obsessive. With Spike the obsession because she was a Slayer came first. We have the reverse. It will be interesting to see how this translates to soulled Spike.
[> [> [> [> [> [> more Buffy/Spike stuff (maybe speccy) -- Tess, 22:12:55 03/07/03 Fri

I love Buffy and Spike scenes. They always make me sit on the edge of my seat and wish the impossible would happen and those two crazy kids could make it work. Even so, what they had season six was not healthy or any type of love I'd wish on even that B**** that stole my high school sweetheart. Actually Spike's love for Buffy reminds me of that old song, "Every Breath You Take". Season six Buffy/Spike was the worst kind of relationship two people could have. However, I do believe Spike really loved Buffy back then.

From the start of season seven I've been thinking the soul has to change those feelings. Spike can't be too sure what he's feeling right now. He just sees Buffy as his lifeline. His soulless self didn't think it would be much different. Since he was already acting like a vampire with a soul, he might as well make it reality. Now, everything is different. Spike has no idea what he's thinking much less feeling.

He has been using Buffy's conscience as his moral compass. Until he stops, he'll never have an identity of his own which IMO still makes him unable to participate in a healthy relationship. Before Spike can be with anyone, even Buffy, he must know who he is, what he cares about, and what he wants. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if before the season is over Spike 'rejects' Buffy's declaration of love over the need to be his own man.
[> Return to the Platform: conclusion part II (already been posted) -- lunasea, 18:58:39 03/06/03 Thu

I didn't do Bargaining or Afterlife. They set up Buffy's resurrection, but they do include some important things.

First is the platform. When Buffy snaps out of the shock of being resurrected, she heads for the platform from The Gift (nice of the Sunnydale authorities to leave that really tall not well built structure standing all summer).

I went into the importance of what happened up there in Conclusion Part 1. Buffy realizes she can love. It is pain, but she can do it.

She says in Bargaining: It was so ... clear ... on this spot. I remember ... how ... shiny ... and clear everything was. (shakes her head) But ... now ... now...

Poor Buffy. She figured something out, but it wasn't enough. She realized she could love, but she hasn't figured out how to do the other part of the Guide's message. There was more to it. Love, death AND strength. "the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature." At the end of the episode, the tower falls and what she discovered falls with it. She cannot go with love because of all the pain.

(she can be with Spike because she doesn't love him. If she did, he wouldn't be an escape. Sorry Spuffy shippers. If Buffy loved Spike, she would have run from him too. She doesn't run from him. She bangs his brains out.)

We get S6 because Buffy doesn't know how to forge strength from pain yet. The Slayer isn't pain. She isn't darkness. She is forging strength from pain, light from darkness. Buffy has just started to learn that.

The realization at the end of Grave is that.

Things have really sucked lately, but it's all gonna change. And I wanna be there when it does. (starting to cry again) I want to see my friends happy again. And I want to see you grow up. The woman you're gonna become. Because she's gonna be beautiful. And she's going to be powerful. I got it so wrong. I don't want to protect you from the world. I want to show it to you. There's so much that I want to show you.

Buffy is forging strength from pain. The world is a dangerous place, but if she hides from it, tries to escape from it, tries to protect Dawn from it, she is pulling away from it. Just like the Guide says she does. By saying she wants to show the world to Dawn, she is forging that strength.

An example from my own life. I have 2 daughters. There are some really bad elements out there what would like to harm them. I could try to protect their innocence and their physical bodies and lock them in their rooms. What parent hasn't wanted to do this?

OR I can show them the world and its dangers. I can teach them about what sort of things boys thinks about or not to go off with strangers and what sort of games strangers might play to gain their trust. I can give them the weapons to handle what the world throws at them, such as self-esteem and discernment. By doing that, I am making my girls much stronger.

"Show it to you." Great idea. Does it mean take her to art museums and show her the beauty there? That is one interpretation, but S7 what do we see?

After the girl in Instanbul dies, we get Buffy showing Dawn the world. How is she doing this? She took Dawn on patrol and is teaching her about slaying. This isn't something that she is going to let Dawn do, but she shows her why she cannot. That is the realization at the end of S6

Buffy makes this realization and it leads out of her Dark Night. She realizes how to forge strength from the pain that love causes and doesn't pull from it.

That is Dark Night, coming far enough along, but not quite there. It is embracing love, not pulling from it. In Dark Night we pull from it so much that we don't feel.

Will the show get rid of Buffy's ego? Doubtful. That stuff is in all in the metaphors they use. It won't come out directly. Will Buffy balance being a Slayer with other roles? Doubtful.

What Buffy will do is forge strength from pain. That is what her Dark Night is all about. Her refusal to see that she could do this led to her depression.

When I talk about love as pain, I am not talking about hurt feelings, like Spike gets because of Buffy. I am talking about something much more profound. I offer as an example, Jesus (and remember I am a Buddhist, not a theist of any sort). The ultimate act of love was hanging on that cross. The pain of Jesus wasn't in the physical pain. Focus on that and you miss the beauty of him. Jesus' concern, even though he is dying and in severe physical pain, is not for himself. It is for the souls of those who are crucifying him. "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." The pain of seeing your loved ones engaging in harmful behavior and not being able to prevent it, that is true pain.

I cannot watch the news, especially since Bush was elected. I cannot bear to see the country I love so much go down this destructive path. I cannot bear to see the World Order that this country set the precedence for crumble because we won't be part of it.

Put yourself in Buffy's position. Willow is engaging in self-destructive behavior. Buffy loves Willow. Not ever Tara could bear to watch Willow go down that path. Buffy went numb to avoid the pain of love.

Dawn is the same way. Talk about a pain icon As soon as Buffy comes back, Dawn starts dumping on you. When you see that, it hurts. It hurts Buffy how her friends took her death. In heaven she "knew everyone I cared about was all right." She gets back and they aren't. She goes numb to avoid the pain of loving people who aren't all right.

ME might not be using the Dark Night for a model, but the probably are using the message from the Guide as it.

I will address S7 in Conclusion Part 3
[> Season 7: conclusion part III (already been posted) (spoiler up to Never Leave me) -- lunasea, 19:01:43 03/06/03 Thu

Season 5-7 is a Trilogy. Season 5 sets up the problem. "Intervention" gives us the way out of the problem. Season 5 ends with Buffy realizing she can love, but it is still pain. Season 6 Buffy pulls away from love, because it is pain and ends with Buffy learning how to forge strength from that pain, when it comes to Dawn.

So we come to S7.

We get Lessons, where Buffy is showing Dawn the world. She and Dawn are getting along great. Buffy has forged strength from pain and can freely love Dawn.

Beneath You. Spike freaks Buffy out. Not ready to show compassion to the crazy guy. This comes back to bite her on the ass. She might not have romantic love for Spike, but she does have feelings--charity, gratitude, appreciation, compassion, etc. She cannot bear to watch what he is going through. It might not be the nicest thing, but it is understandable.

Same Time, Same Place. Buffy loves Willow and the scene at the end is beautiful. Strength from pain. Oodles and oodles of love.

Help. Buffy risks pain getting involved with a girl she barely knows. She does get hurt, but she continues on. She keeps trying to help kids as counselor.

Selfless. Buffy has to shut down in order to avoid feeling pain when she has to kill her friend, Anya. Because she does this, Anya almost dies. She brings up killing Angel and the intense pain that she felt then. She hasn't found a way to forge strength from pain when it comes to slaying, yet. Who wants to bet that she does later? Just cause we can't have cross-overs doesn't mean we can't have flashbacks.

Him. What a beautiful moment. Buffy manages to overcome magic to save Dawn. We know how powerful love spells are. More forging strength from pain. The pain of seeing Dawn in pain allowed Buffy to have the strength to overcome the love spell. Wow!!!!

CwDP. Holden just creates a lot of pain. Thing is remember what S7 is, forging strength from pain. My prediction is that all the pain Holden created will be forged into strength in order to fight the First. Same thing with what is going on with Spike.

Sleeper. Buffy finds out what Spike has been doing and doesn't run from it. She is now forging strength from pain. If she had done it earlier, the First couldn't have used Spike, but better late than never.

Never Leave Me. More strength.


So that is what Buffy has been doing now that she is out of her Dark Night. I look forward to seeing her doing it more.

Unfortunately that isn't what has been happening, since. It will. Not much time left.
[> [> Re: Wow, S6 in one big bite! Thanks for the incisive views. -- Just George, 19:26:12 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Now I'm in my Hero texts again -- Sofdog, 15:01:23 03/07/03 Fri

Thanks for putting Season 6 in perspective. I reached over and cracked my "Mythology: The Voyage of the Hero" (Leeming) open. Spot on appraisal of Season 6 as the "night journey of the soul" and the retrieval of Dawn in "Grave" as the missing aspect of Buffy.

I couldn't stand watching her debase herself last season. It was clear to me that she was numb and helpless. But when you point out that, after Buffy's illuminating victory in "The Gift," the next step was for her to explore the dark side of herself, well... go lunasea.

I'll be spending the weekend with this one. Thanks.
[> [> [> Now I'm Blushing -- lunasea, 17:22:06 03/07/03 Fri

[> I don't agree with everything you posted but it made for an interesting read. -- Miss Edith, 20:41:39 03/06/03 Thu

[> A largely excellent analysis- thanks -- Tchaikovsky, 02:39:52 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> But... -- Tchaikovsky, 05:39:07 03/07/03 Fri

There are sections where I strongly disagree with you.

Firstly, I still think you are projecting Angel issues in to places they don't belong. 'As You Were'- nothing to do with Angel. 'All The Way'- nothing to do with Angel. And I agree with Helen that your really strong reaction to Spuffy appears to be partly to do with your favouring of Angel. Remember 'Angel does not negate Spike, and Spike does not negate Angel'. It's facile to compare 'Smashed' to 'Surprise', for example, because the situations are so totally different. Angel is on the road to losing his soul due to a moment of intense and passionate love. Spike, as odd as it seems while the house is falling down, is actually on the first step to re-gaining his soul. Sex with Angel should be perfect, because it heightens the shock of 'Innocence'. Sex with Spike will only work by expressing its adversarial nature- the violence inherent in the darkness Buffy believes is infecting her. The house that falls down is a deserted one. Its destruction clears the space for something new to grow. If the demolition was meant to symbolise destruction, it would have been a destruction of the Summers' house or Spike's crypt, or something homely. Not something deserted.

I side with HonorH in completely disagreeing on your view of Dawn. She reacts in a very human, very teenage way to the challenges brought before her- and as a result is sometimes annoying. But a teenager only fights for freedom as a rebellion to parents they perceive as over-constricting. Dawn's problem is the opposite- she could basically do whatever she likes for much of Season Six, and so she feels a lack of attention after being the most important thing in the wolrd to Buffy towards the end of Season Five.

I don't concur with your views on Joyce. At times she is wrong. At times she is right. I agree that she is the person putting forward the idea of Buffy leading a normal life, and sometimes it leads to horrible conflict, ('Becoming'), and sometimes to beautiful understanding ('Innocence'). When I said 'Good', I was referring to your Mayor='Evil' riff. Joyce is well-intentioned- she wants the best for her daughter. By Season Five, (of course, in the Whedonverse, just as she is about to die), she has her relationship with Buffy pretty well figured out. I think that in Season Three she does many good things for Buffy. She is deeply understanding of her duties- and who is to be surprised if she is not well-versed enough in Slayer lore or the nuances of Faith's character to know that Faith couldn't take over?

I think the pattern, if anything, is that you tend to cast characters as archetypes, (as your Spike=Shadow, Dawn=Ego, Giles=Higher Consciousness etc demonstrates), but then be highly critical of every questionable action, because you have set them up as constructs rather than as humans. Dawn, Spike and Joyce have failings and flaws which lead them to bad actions, but also redeeming features, humanity and love which leads them to great acts of kindness. To dismiss them or straitjacket them so rigidly is to deny them a type of independence to act outisde their most obvious roles, as they often do.

TCH
[> [> [> Re: But... -- lunasea, 07:43:47 03/07/03 Fri

'As You Were'- nothing to do with Angel.

Then why give Dawn a really nice vampire for a boyfriend? We were revisiting teen Buffy with that episode. One of Dawn's function is to remind us what Buffy used to be like. This was used incredibly well season 6. That is what this episode did for me, in regards to Buffy. It is the episode immediately after Life Serial. Life Serial opens with Buffy coming back from having seen Angel. We didn't get to see the meeting, but it is obvious that Buffy is having problems. The engagement underscores this.

At least for me, seeing Dawn and Justin together did remind me of Buffy and Angel. It could be my irrational shipper's glasses, or with the placement in the arc and that we didn't get to see the meeting which led some of us wanting to see Angel and Buffy together again that is what the writers wanted. When Dawn had to dust Justin it was almost like when Buffy had to kill Angel. The drama and angst of Buffy/Angel were there in Dawn/Justin. Why else give Dawn a vampire boyfriend? This was a way to remind us why Buffy felt the way she did.

I didn't even address Willow, which was the main plot. This was just how the episode related to Buffy. It was a sneaky way for the writers to remind us of Buffy/Angel so that we would feel her lonliness with her. That is what this episode did for me, any way. I like when they do that. Rather than tell us something, they not only show us, but they get us to feel like a certain character does.

'All The Way'- nothing to do with Angel.

Riley usurped Angel's function. Angel is the one that lifts Buffy's spirits when she is down. It was Angel in "Helpless" and "Forever." Angel is the one that shows Buffy how strong she really is. If Riley had actually been that perceptive and could really see Buffy, he wouldn't have left. He would have seen what was going on S5 and would have stopped things before they got too far. I didn't like the new-improved Riley. They just turned him into a mini-Angel.

I did like the title. I could just see Special Agent Finn telling his men "As you were."

And I agree with Helen that your really strong reaction to Spuffy appears to be partly to do with your favouring of Angel.

Much easier to dismiss what I say if it is through shipper's glasses. If anything, I am tired of people giving a VAMPIRE thought and traits a VAMPIRE is incapable of. Spike is still a vampire, he isn't a human.

Disgreement is good. You criticize me for criticizing actions. I can find the motives for any action, but it doesn't mean that I have to think those are good motives. We are supposed to criticize actions and characters. They aren't humans. They are characters. They are constructs. My goal is to see how they are constructed.
[> [> [> [> A few clarifications -- Tchaikovsky, 02:15:00 03/08/03 Sat

I'm not sure that I found Justin that nice- he seemed to me to be trading on Dawn's insecurities in order to eat her, (or just possibly turn her). He is a supposedly nice bloke, (like the frat boy in 'Reptile Boy'), while Angel is a genuinely nice vampire. I think that unless you are claiming that Angel's relationship with Buffy was all about Angel's deception of Buffy as to what he really is, (which I'm sure you wouldn't, and I certainly don't), then Justin is really not all that like Angel. If Justin is, than that suggests some really negative connotations about the Buffy/Angel relationship, which I don't think is intended.

I didn't like the new improved Riley either. Do you have evidence that this plot-line was broken with Angel in mind? I thought that the problem with the episode was Doug Petrie's idolisation of Riley. He didn't understand that RIley's reversion to the Army was actually a more ambiguous decision than re-controlling his life. It was Riley deciding to take orders again; to get rid of the moral ambiguities of life with Buffy and be told what was right and wrong. Petrie writes a lot of it in 'Riley's ultra-cool!' mode, which is harmful. And as a result of this, he is very cardboard-cutout as a character in the episode. On the other hand, I don't think Riley was written as too perceptive. His return prompted Buffy to have epiphanies of her own, rather than Riley telling her what was wrong with her life. I don't think they turned him into a semi-Angel, just a poor fanfic interpretation of the earlier Riley.

Much easier to dismiss what I say if it is through shipper's glasses. If anything, I am tired of people giving a VAMPIRE thought and traits a VAMPIRE is incapable of. Spike is still a vampire, he isn't a human.

Well, actually so is Angel. I continue to find your posts fascinating, and extremely provocative, because the most provocative thing is a well-argued opinion that you completely disagree with. I'm not trying to dismiss you, I'm just trying to work through why your arguments rankle with me so much.

Disgreement is good. You criticize me for criticizing actions. I can find the motives for any action, but it doesn't mean that I have to think those are good motives. We are supposed to criticize actions and characters. They aren't humans. They are characters. They are constructs. My goal is to see how they are constructed.

Yes, it is- it's constructive and helps you clarify your opinions against others. I love it. I didn't criticise you for citicising actions. I criticised you for occasionally criticising characters, (such as Dawn, Spike and Joyce), on the basis of what they have ever done wrong. Your view of Joyce, for exapmle, was extremely one-sided in how her desire to have Buffy as a normal girl had impeded her daughter. It must be noticed that she also empowers her daughter beyond measure at times with these thoughts.

I'm not claiming that the people in the shows actually are human (I'm not that far gone yet), but that they are written as human characters. They have flaws, beliefs, desires and moments of transcendant kindness. If each character is only a construct for Buffy's journey, then your criticisms of them become more logical, because then you are criticising a certain view of Buffy's mind that is incorrect, [Ego is incorrect to assert itself in 'Dead Things', Shadow hampers Buffy's recuperation etc]. But if you see them as essential human characters, rather than constructed allegories, than it becomes clear that the characters, while not always making wise decisions, are not to be dismissed on a one-time action, because of a view that this is intrinsically what they are. They grow,they evolve, they change. They slip in and out of easy labelling. That's the joy of the show.

TCH
[> [> [> [> [> A key to me -- lunasea, 06:19:07 03/08/03 Sat

Your view of Joyce, for exapmle, was extremely one-sided in how her desire to have Buffy as a normal girl had impeded her daughter. It must be noticed that she also empowers her daughter beyond measure at times with these thoughts.

Just because I don't say something, doesn't mean I don't see it. I tend to talk about the things I don't think people see, offer another perspective. Somewhere above, I mention that one of the reasons I don't like Dawn S6 is that she doesn't act like she was raised by Joyce at all. I do notice how important Joyce was to Buffy and in a good way.

I criticised you for occasionally criticising characters, (such as Dawn, Spike and Joyce), on the basis of what they have ever done wrong.

I wear two hats in regards to the Buffyverse. I am irrational fan-girl that hates to see anything done to my Buffy or Willow or even Xander. I am also wanna-be-writer-girl who breaks the show down to see how it is constructed so I can do the same thing. Some threads are written from one perspective. This one was both.

Actually being able to see both perspectives helps me interpret the show better. The show is written to irrational fan-girl. Without her perspective, it is an interesting psychological analysis of the hero's journey, but that is about it. If I really want to see what the writters are doing, I need that intense emotional reaction that they are going for.

When I write BAD SPIKE repeatedly, that is because that is the reaction the writers were going for. They wanted us to think "What the hell is our girl doing?!?!? She must really be messed up!" Spike really was back to being a villain this season. It was a hard transition from the incredibly sympathetic and self-sacrificing guy S5. I think the writers did pull it off, but I know that others don't.

If each character is only a construct for Buffy's journey, then your criticisms of them become more logical, because then you are criticising a certain view of Buffy's mind that is incorrect,

The show may not be written with Dawn as Ego and the various psychological components, but is written with everything being a construct that revolves around Buffy (occassionally we do get another character that is the center of the episode that gives yet another perspective on the theme). I will illustrate this with what I think is one of the most misinterpreted actions in the Buffyverse, Spike leaving flowers for Joyce.

The episode we are talking about is "Forever." (one of my favorites) Marti is particularly great with weaving parallel story lines into a single script. The episode is about everyone's reactions to Joyce's funeral, but we saw their reaction to Joyce's death in "The Body," written by Joss himself. It is another wonderful 1-2 Joss-Marti punch.

In this one we get a bit beyond the immediate grief and confusion of "The Body." Joyce's death is used as a vehicle to show the intense neediness of the various characters. We open with the practical stuff, showing stalwart Buffy who is making the necessary arrangements. This is to draw a sharp contrast to what she will reveal later with one word "Mommy."

The first character to really show what s/he is feeling is Spike and those flowers. If that action existed in a vacuum and didn't take place in the context of an episode, I might agree that it was a nice gesture. Thing is this episode wasn't about nice gestures. It was about neediness. Marti wrote something for Spike to do here and later that showed his extreme neediness. It wasn't even about his obsession with Buffy. It was about what drives that obsession, shown from a different angle.

From there we get the funeral which leads up to Angel and Buffy. Not only does Buffy exhibit "serious neediness" in this scene, but so does Angel. Intercut with that is Dawn staying with Willow and Tara as well as Anya and Xander. It was interesting to see Anya so needy. Marti is great at doing that, almost as good as Joss. They take one emotion and explore it through the various characters. I wonder which one it will be 7.21. In "Forever" it was neediness.

We aren't supposed to ignore anything. Just realize that Spike's actions happen in the context of the episodes and that his continuity isn't just episode to episode, but within the episode as well. All characters can be viewed this way. The only way to write these complex episodes is for there to be an incredible simplicity behind them.

First the writers figure out what they want to show about Buffy. Then they write something that will do that. Next they figure other ways to approach this theme with the remaining characters. By comparing and contrasting what is going on with the other characters, the viewer can see something more about Buffy.

That is what makes the show so amazing. Most sci-fi/fantasy shows view like an RPG. This event happens and how do the characters react. Some shows might as well have the writers throwing dice (and I bet some do) to figure out what the characters do. Buffy isn't like that. It is character-centered writing. It is centered not on the plot, but on emotions.

Any one-time action is designed to show something. That something should be taken into account both my irrational fan-girl and wannabe-writer girl. Irrational fan-girl is going to criticize it. She is supposed to. Wannabe-writer-girl is going to understand why that was necesary though.
[> [> [> [> [> [> That makes me understand much better -- Tchaikovsky, 08:06:19 03/08/03 Sat

I think that was what I was confused about in your approach. Sometimes you seemed to be writing dead-on insightful analysis, with cross-references and subtexts galore being highlighted. Then the next moment you would skip to 'BAD SPIKE!!!'. It puzzled me that someone who understood the nuances of the show so thoroughly would also revert to apparently sweeping statements. But if that is to highlight the writers' intentions and to explain the 'fangirl' aspect of your watching, then it fits in nicely.

I still have a very different perspective from you on many aspects of the show, but I'm glad that I understand yours better now. Thanks for explaining. And agree with your high rating of 'Forever', which I think is a perenially under-rated classic, coming straight after 'The Body'. It is a different type of show about grief from Joss' one, and while not as obviously steeped in genius, it is thoughtful and very moving indeed.

TCH
[> Just wondering why you are so hung up on Angel? -- Helen, 05:05:58 03/07/03 Fri

I have no problem with discussing AtS, although I don't follow it as avidly as Buffy, but Angel as a character on BtVS left nearly 4 years ago. Many things have happened to Buffy since then which have nothing to do with him. The story is rich enough to be worth examining without saying as you do about "As You Were" Riley is an Angel substitute. No he isn't. Angel and Buffy have apparently worked through their issues (Forever, end of Flooded, beginning of Life Serial) although we didn't get to see it (okay we saw Forever). Riley and Buffy still had huge issues and the resolution of this was as necessary for him as her, so that he could go forward with his new life with Sam.

I too found Spuffy disturbing in many ways, although this is complicated by the fact that James Marsters is such a damn fine actor, a lot of sympathy is felt for Spike, perhaps to a degree not intended by the writers (someone else mentions this on another thread). However, I get the feeling that your favour for Angel, rather than concerns about Spuffy, are really your issue.

Worth considering, and always my take on Spuffy, yes, shagging a vampire disturbing (but then I thought straight away that sleeping with Angel was not good in Innocence) but perhaps what really freaked Buffy was the knowledge that if Spike could love her (and she admits in Conversations with Dead People that he did) why couldn't Angelus?
[> [> Agree, and your final line is an interesting spin -- Tchaikovsky, 05:17:11 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> Thanks, I've been wanting to bring it up for a while -- Helen, 05:55:58 03/07/03 Fri

I'm not a Spuffy apologist, I WAS a BUffy/Angel shipper but I can grow (!), but I have felt for a long time that the comparison should not be made between Pre-souled Spike and Angel, but pre-souled Spike and Angelus. Would anyone let Angelus babysit their kid sister? Thought not.
[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks, I've been wanting to bring it up for a while -- Rahael, 06:24:47 03/07/03 Fri

However, the chip has to factor into this as well.....

But I agree, Angelus in Season 2 is less nuanced and more caricature "EVIL" than portrayals of demons and Vamps in S4,5, and 6. Look at the huge disparity between the Anya of the Wish, and the Anya of S5,6, and 7.

Look at Darla in BtVS S1 (uninteresting) and Darla in AtS S2 & 3 - tragic, complex, nuanced, heartbreaking.
[> [> [> [> [> But I will admit -- Rahael, 06:27:08 03/07/03 Fri

That S2 Spike and Drusilla were more rounded than any other Vampire around, and set the mould for things to come.
[> [> [> [> [> [> You're right, the chip does factor into it, but... -- Helen, 06:56:07 03/07/03 Fri

Crush demonstrated the way around the chip - hook up with another vamp - they kill, Spike feeds while the corpse is still warm enough to enjoy. He never did it again after Crush.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're right, the chip does factor into it, but... -- Rahael, 07:18:48 03/07/03 Fri

Well my view of the chip is that it starts to condition Spike's behaviour, that it isn't simply about punishment, but it actively starts to 'train' him out of killing/drinking. In a really brutal way, as well. I mean, if your body starts punishing you in that way, it's bound to start affecting your behaviour overall. Spike, in his own words can't play with the other puppies any more. He's been cast out of the Vamp community. He gets regular shocks every time he tries to do things that feel 'natural' to him. The chip has more ramifications than just the instant pain it adminsters when Spike tries to harm humans.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> if that is true, then why -- lunasea, 08:46:33 03/07/03 Fri

when he thinks the chip isn't working does he try to go out and feed again? If he was truly conditioned, he wouldn't need the chip any more. That was something the writers were playing with, was the chip actively conditioning him. From "Smashed" I got the impression that it wasn't. Instead his vamp blood lust was so great, not even the chip could condition him out of it. That sets up what he does in "Seeing Red." Would a soul be that big a deal, if electro-shock therapy could condition a vampire?

I want to do a post about vamp blood lust and what drives is later.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: if that is true, then why -- Rahael, 08:53:48 03/07/03 Fri

Because it is still crude, and not sophisticated. And Spike still knows that it is his master, and that it is demeaning to him. Perhaps that's why he went to get the soul in the end. If he did need a 'leash' a soul still enables choice, is still more dignified than an implanted chip dictating certain aspects of behaviour. And Spike's all about image and power and posturing (and I use that in a non derogatory sense).

The minute he thinks he might be free of it, he goes in search of blood, and not only because of bloodlust, but because it's a chance for him to escape from being the neutered puppy. Back to the fangs, back to the causing of terror, back to being powerful and in command. And he associates all of that with feeding. The chip by denying all of those things to him humiliated him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: if that is true, then why -- Tess, 22:35:38 03/07/03 Fri

Don't forget it took Spike a lot of talking to work up the bloodlust to try and eat the girl.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also, if he teamed up with another vampire, he would fall into the slayable category -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:51:46 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, if he teamed up with another vampire, he would fall into the slayable category -- Miss Edith, 12:03:49 03/07/03 Fri

Spike did try to hook up with Harmany when he first escaped from the initiative saying he was hungry and could she get him something to eat. She turned him away because of his previous mistreatment of her. After that he didn't seem to have much choice but to adjust to his new status, whilst bitching at the scoobies don't forget I hate you all etc.

Spike did have the option of letting Dru do the killing for him in Crush but at that point "loves bitch" had made the choice to focus on Buffy, "I can be good Buffy" and try and win her round. Crush was Spike's first real choice and he did seem uncertain when biting the girl in the Bronze. He hestiated for a while and I would have been interested in the writers taking the time to explore that, rather than give him an instant soul and dismiss his struggles when chipped as pretty meaningless. Oh well guess it wasn't to be.
[> [> [> [> [> Vamps became more complex when Angel was going to get his spin-off -- lunasea, 08:23:43 03/07/03 Fri

If I were going to analyze Angel based only on BtVS, I would have to put a lot of spackle. Now, I can take things like "The Prodigal," "Five-by-Five" "Darla" and other episodes and put that together with "Angel" and "Passion." Then I don't have to use so much spackle. Angel is a fully fleshed out character with his own show now and gets lots of screen time. I can take that Angel and place him back into BtVS. A bit of retcon is necessary, but not that much. On BtVS we didn't have too much of Angel without Buffy, beyond his evil days. Now we have things like "Darla" and we can see what his heart is.

He wasn't written with quite that heart on BtVS. He revolved completely around Buffy. Vampires were just demons walking around in human bodies. They might have the memories of the person, but they were just a demon. That made it ok to kill them. Then spin-offs are talked about and we get lines like in Dopplegangland when Angel tries to say that a vampires personality does have to do with when they were human. They take that even further in The Prodigal.

Spike gets to ride in the car the writers are constructing for Angel. The vampires of S1 BtVS wouldn't have caried their own show. Angel and Buffy are the ones the cars are made for. Spike has to fit in both. The writers do this by leaving him fairly undeveloped.

As for the comparison, I wouldn't leave my kids alone with Spike pre-chip. If we are going to compare to Angelus, we have to take THAT Spike. There really is no comparison to chipped Spike, unless we are just comparing which character is better for a certain person, regardless of their circumstances, vampire, soul or chip. Worst would be Angelus, next would come Spike, chipped Spike, souled Angel. Where souled Spike fits has yet to be seen.
[> [> Answer (spoiler up to Awakening and Selfless) -- lunasea, 11:45:32 03/07/03 Fri

I'm going to guess that you are saying this because whenever I talk about one, I tend to say how the same thing is playing out in the other (or what the slight variation is). That has nothing to do with being "hung up" on a character. That has to do with how my mind works. I see all these connections and I talk about them. BtVS and AtS can stand on their own as shows. However, they both comes out of the head of the same man and as such, they are connected. When I see something on one show, if I see it on the other, I tend to comment about this. It gives a fuller picture of the Buffyverse. Angel and Buffy really are going to the same place. What is interesting is how they are similar and different.

DB may no longer appear on BtVS, but Angel is still a presence, even this season. At one point I was keeping track of the Angel reference to give me hope for a crossover. I don't care if they ultimately end up together, so much as both of them acknowledge what they mean to each other and why. Neither can move on by trying to forget. That isn't behavior of a strong hero.

It is one thing when your love moves to another town, so you find someone else. That isn't what happened. Angel ran away and Buffy let/pushed him. Noble sacrifice he made, but he never talks about it. Neither does she. They haven't actually dealt with or worked through anything. They just make their sacrifice and push on with their lives. That has a price that they have both paid. It results in Angel's Champion fixation and Buffy's superiority complex.

They have both made other decisions in this vein, but this one is the biggest and most dramatic to deal with that will allow these two characters to grow.

It really depends on what you view Buffy and Angel as. Since interviews with the actors and writers call it "true" love, that is what I will go with. What seperates true love from vamp/shadow love or even Xander/Anya love? If this season is going to be about the power of love, how can the true love of Buffy and Angel not triumph?

The show has always been about love. Angel never left. Buffy's feelings for his character are used even when he isn't present.

On AtS they rarely make any references to Buffy. Angel just can't handle them. We got the first in "Deep Down" as part of his Champion Speech. Every word of those is carefully choosen. When the audience hears a Buffy reference, some of us squeal. They aren't just thrown in there. Every one is important. Then there is the Buffygasm of Awakening. When asked what this means (which means this is how he was told to play it) DB said " I think we've established that his one true love is Buffy, obviously. So, when that occurred, it was a testament to his feelings. It's not the sex that makes him happy; it's the feeling. He can have sex, but he can't be truly happy." Do you really think they aren't going to revisit this when he is resouled?

Then there is Buffy's reference in "Selfles." Same thing with BtVS. Any Angel reference makes some of us squeal. We saw how emotional she still gets about that. Really looks like she has moved on.

I like to make predictions about where the shows are going. Right now they are being rammed into each other. WKCS won't be the only thing that connects them. Both heroes need to deal with their feelings about the other. If AtS is to continue, this is especially important. He can't be with anyone until this is really resolved.
[> [> [> Re: Answer (spoiler up to Awakening and Selfless) -- Arethusa, 12:05:58 03/07/03 Fri

Angel ran away and Buffy let/pushed him. It results in Angel's Champion fixation and Buffy's superiority complex.

Do you think it's possible that Angel's Champion fixation comes from his need to feel important and good, feelings he should have gotten from his father but never did? And could Buffy's superiority complex arise from the fact that's she's superior to others physically, and has been Chosen by The Powers That Be?

There's something I wondered about in Awakenings, and I'd be interested in your opinion about this: If Buffy is indeed his one-and-only, why didn't he imagine himself making love with Buffy during his perfect day? Since it was all just a fantasy, there's no reason why he'd substitute Cordelia for Buffy, unless he loved Cordy too. (I'm sure ME is clever enough to somehow get around the crossover problem.)

Both heroes need to deal with their feelings about the other. If AtS is to continue, this is especially important. He can't be with anyone until this is really resolved.

How would the curse factor into this?
[> [> [> [> Re: Answer (spoiler up to Awakening and Selfless) -- lunasea, 14:11:05 03/07/03 Fri

Do you think it's possible that Angel's Champion fixation comes from his need to feel important and good, feelings he should have gotten from his father but never did?

I used to think that, but I don't think it is that simple any more. Whistler got him started with the idea of being someone. When we saw the stuff from "The Prodigal," it made sense. Thing is that isn't what Doyle used to push Angel's buttons. Being someone was his thing on BtVS. On AtS they go somewhere else.

It isn't about feeling important and good. It is about feeling connected. He didn't only need his father's approval, but his father's love. He had that love, with Buffy. He gave it up. What he gave it up for better be damn important.

It really depends on what you see the PTB doing. For me the visions aren't about saving a life, but a soul and making a connection. The second episode is even directly about this. Angel is lonely. The more lonely he gets, the more he builds up being a Champion, like it can compensate for things. He choose being a Champion over that connection. Now being a Champion is that connection.

And could Buffy's superiority complex arise from the fact that's she's superior to others physically, and has been Chosen by The Powers That Be?

Again, I think that is too simple. In "Selfless" she has to be the Law. That is what makes her feel superior to others, that she can and does make these tough decisions. She can do the tough things, like send Angel to hell. She makes the hard choices that no one else has to. They couldn't. Since they can't, their opinions don't matter.

She's given up a lot because she is Slayer. Being Slayer better be damn important. The whole dying thing is pretty up there. It isn't about being physically superior, but more what she is willing to give up. She is mentally/morally superior.

Neither acknowledge the toll this is taking on them. Their friends try to keep them afloat, but really it takes someone they feel understands what they go through. Faith could be a very important character to both of them this year.

There's something I wondered about in Awakenings, and I'd be interested in your opinion about this: If Buffy is indeed his one-and-only, why didn't he imagine himself making love with Buffy during his perfect day? Since it was all just a fantasy, there's no reason why he'd substitute Cordelia for Buffy, unless he loved Cordy too.

Angel is in serious denial when it comes to Buffy and vice versa. Their feelings are so intense that they just shove them aside. Neither talks about the other. The shooting script for "Awakenings" reads that loosing his soul is like last time this happened, with BUFFY!

I would say in that moment, he not only felt the intense pain of loosing his soul, but also all the pain he has been pushing aside when it comes to Buffy. I don't understand people that say they have dealt with their feelings and moved on. Even Riley understood the hold that Angel has over Buffy. Marti did a great job in "Forever" showing how not over each other they are, especially on Angel's part. "Selfless" showed how not over Angel Buffy is.

When he mentions Buffy in "Deep Down," he just tosses her off as "my girlfriend." Is that being over her or major denial? After the Buffygasm, I would say denial. That is why she wasn't in that perfect day fantasy. The fantasy didn't go that deep into his unconscious. The soul leaving did, however.

It took just being with Buffy to do it last time. This time it required all that crap. It wasn't about love. If he loved Cordy at all, why didn't either say that? He always asks her were they "in love." That is much different than I love you. In love is candy hearts and love ballads. Love is a bit more than that. The connection between him and Cordy didn't do it. It wasn't strong enough. He couldn't loose himself in her. He had to clear up all the crap around him first.

That is what made being with Buffy so amazing. Even with all that guilt and the Judge after them, Angel could completely loose himself. That is what love does. That is what is true about it. People focus on the negative statement about sex in "Surprise/Innocense." What about the incredibly amazing statement about love?

How would the curse factor into this?

Will there even be a curse when he gets resouled? That would be one convenient way to deal with it. What if Willow (or some other witch) was able to give him back his soul without the curse? It isn't free, so they don't have to pull it out of the ether. They just have to get it back into him and to bind it there.

I've thought a lot about Angel's soul. The problem with Angel isn't the curse. It is him. The curse/vengeance isn't stronger than love. Love broke the curse. If vengeance is strong enough to hold Angel's soul in place, why wouldn't love be? I don't think it could be something Angel could do for himself, but if some little blond in Sunnydale loved him that much, maybe that love could be used to bind Angel's soul to him. We have living vengeance. How about living love?

Even if they don't end up together, how beautiful would that be?

Better yet, he Shanshus this year. Buffy's ability to love leads to her gift to Angel, his ability to die. Joss wants a whole new paradigm for AtS next year.
[> [> Re: As you were: Angel or Riley -- Tess, 22:29:10 03/07/03 Fri

I have to agree with Lunasea that AS YOU WERE would have been more interesting with Angel. I hated that show because Riley just didn't seem believable. However, and I never considered it before, I think it would have worked with Angel. I don't think there is anything Buffy could do that would change Angel's high opinion of her. Riley left disillusioned with Buffy, and troubled with Spike/Buffy, so why would he be so okay with finding them in bed together? In fact, I've always thought Riley was putting on a show in AYW trying to seem 150% into the rebound woman he was stupid enough to marry, when he secretly was delighted with how sucky Buffy's life was at that moment. In fact, finding her with Spike probably was the thing that gave him the sweetest gloat. But than again, I always disliked Riley.
[> spuffed? -- MsG, 05:28:56 03/07/03 Fri

Thanks for interesting reading. I've not read past Hells Bells (staying unspoiled), and in any case I often seem to go off at weird tangents, so I may be way off field in anything I say. Apologies if I'm in the another ball park completely. No disrespect for your personal story. I'm kneejerk responding.

I guess all the individuals, monsters and entities in Buffy can be seen as aspects of one identity, and need to be when applying a psychoanalytic reading. Riddley Walker comes to mind. EUSAS HEAD IS DREAMING US. It's another way of seeing the symbols. However I do find myself in most of the main characters at one time or another. What I'm trying to say is, I lose something by seeing it only as Buffy's story. Apologies if I'm missing the point here. But to move on,

Is Buffy/Spike bad? Am I a 'shipper?. There are challenges thrown down to b/s shippers in your account. I find b/s a resonant series theme, and I relate to both Buffy and Spike's experience personally. Some of Buffy's side is to do with letting go or clamping down. Going between the extremes of release and clampdown, giving up control and then reasserting it, is heady stuff, like emotional skydiving. Release and control are here being represented, for Buffy, by sexual indulgence or denial. Spike's side is to do with getting obsessed, why that happens, how good or bad comes out of it. Spike is obsessed because he's looking for something. It's not sex, though he thinks sexual conquest will allow him to possess it. Maybe it's a way back to the path he abandoned when he abandoned William. Or maybe he's still running away from William.

You describe it, for Buffy, as a shadow/ego conflict. I'm not sure that this makes the relationship bad. Maybe it makes it crucial, beyond good and bad? They have shared sexual interests, but it's not what's pulled them together. They are divided by their social context and commitments, but this doesn't nullify the dynamic. Neither of these distracting things is the nub of what's going on. What they perhaps don't realise is that their shared sexual interests are not core to how they need each other, and are masking other more difficult stuff. I think up until AYW I shared this not-realisation. I think I've done that in life more than once - eg If I sort this sexual relationship I will have my whole life sorted. I think maybe it's a bit of a cultural thing. Romantic (which now=sexual) love becoming the ultimate spiritual search. Maybe that's why the b/s theme has dinged so many bells for so many people.

I really like they way the series takes a turn and there is not only a whole new landscape, but even the path that's gone before looks different.
[> [> Hey, very interesting comments, MsG! -- Dyna, 12:20:06 03/07/03 Fri

I completely agree with your point about both Buffy and Spike pursuing something through the relationship that is not necessarily good or bad--Buffy, the tightly-controlled person who feels that all the world rests on her shoulders, seeking the experience of giving up control and then reclaiming it; Spike the seeker who doesn't really understand what he's seeking, but thinks the route to it might be through this sexual connection. Are either of these inherently illegitimate reasons for being involved in a relationship? They simply seem very human to me.

For me, one of the things that made the story emotionally compelling was that each character was given equally valid, recognizable motives and feelings--quite different from each other and at times operating at cross-purposes, but not necessarily "right" or "wrong." I don't feel I was ever asked to privilege the feelings of one character over the other, though there are certainly many fans who felt this urge. I like the word "crucial" to describe the relationship--crucial for both characters for different reasons, possibly in ways that have yet to be understood, by them or by the audience.

As the B/S relationship isn't on front-burner status anymore, it's easy for the discussion to get sketchy and lose some of its richness. Thanks for dinging the bell again and reminding me of how much I enjoy the subject!

Dyna :)
[> Where can I get the Readers Digest Version of this thread? -- WickedBuffy, 21:22:04 03/07/03 Fri

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