March 2003 Archives

March 2003 posts

Previous March 2003
More March 2003

Well-known casting spoiler, will you marry me? (Salvage spoilers) -- Rob, 19:40:29 03/05/03 Wed

I have no time to post right now, but I just had to write to say how awesome Eliza was tonight. I love her. I was worried that jail might have changed her too much, but nope, still our Faith. Maybe a little less of a ticking time bomb, but still a kick ass, formidable woman.

Favorite moments?

"Like riding a biker!"

Angel's saying that he thought Faith'd be up for a threesome.

Faith beating up Connor. (I love Connor, too, though, so don't be mad if you're a Connor fan, but honestly, I'd be happy seeing her beat up anybody!)

Faith breaking the nose of that other prisoner weilding a knife looking awfully similar to the Harbingers' weapons.

How, after we were tricked into thinking killing the Beast would be a hard thing, after how simple it was in Angel's "retarded" fantasy, are thrown a complete curveball when...again, it ends up being pretty simple. And makes sense! The only thing that could kill him...was him. Brilliant, IMO.

All of the Wes/Faith scenes. Priceless.

Any Faith scene. I LOVE YOU, WELL KNOWN CASTING SPOILER!!!

Rob

[> I'll fight you for her! -- Doug, 19:49:18 03/05/03 Wed

Totally agree with you though; Faith was great in this episode.

And the othercharacters were good to.

[> [> I'll take BOTH of you on! -- Apophis, 19:52:27 03/05/03 Wed

I loved the prison break. All those movies made it seem so complicated... Anyway, too bad there'll be no Faith spinoff.

[> [> [> I know! (Salvage spoilers) -- Rob, 21:45:53 03/05/03 Wed

I loved the simplicity of the escape. No big staged plan. Just stand back, Wes, smash the glass, punch the guards and jump! It was wonderful and unexpected.

Rob

[> [> [> [> In that moment, she was truly a Slayer -- Masq, 23:04:19 03/05/03 Wed

All she had to hear was Angelus was back, and she knew she couldn't stay there.

She didn't even blink.

[> [> [> [> [> Exactly! -- Rob, 11:29:37 03/06/03 Thu

She was in jail paying for her sins, and, now we see more than ever, chose to stay there. She could have left any time. But she wanted to pay her debt to society. But when the call of her Slayer duty called, she stepped right into the role, without thinking of the consequences to herself. That showed more than anything else how much she matured.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Well... -- Masq, 12:12:15 03/06/03 Thu

On second (or was it third or fourth?) viewing of the episode, I noticed she didn't step up immediately. When Wesley told her they were dealing with the darkness and the rain of fire, she was content to continue her sentence and let Angel be the hero.

The minute she found out Angel was out of the picture, though, she stepped up in a big way. Maybe it was to help Angel get his soul back. Maybe it was because the city needed a champion. Maybe both.

But I was like "Yes!"

Of course, taht leap through the glass wall was also very cool...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think she was probably especially touched that...(Salvage spoilers) -- Rob, 13:11:58 03/06/03 Thu

...Wes came to her for help with Angelus and not Buffy.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And a bit symbolic, maybe? -- CrookedMind, 04:42:57 03/07/03 Fri

[b][i]Of course, that leap through the glass wall was also very cool...[/b][/i]

The focus on that part of the scene--telling Wes to back up, Faith staring intently at the glass, the slo-mo glide & roll through the wall--really caught me. After rewatching a few times, it came across to me as a "passage" of sorts for Faith. With the glass shatters all that was the reckless, self-centered Faith; emerging on the other side of the glass is the mature, "right-headed" Slayer, ready to do what needs doing to put things right.

[> [> [> I'd fight you, and I'm straight! -- HonorH (female, thankyouverymuch), 22:44:23 03/05/03 Wed

Can't wait to see this ep, courtesy of the lovely Dochawk. Eliza floats my boat!

[> [> [> [> Yeah, well I'm a gay boy and you're on! (memories of Willow in 'Him') -- Tyreseus, 00:16:22 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> This could get very interesting. LOL! -- Rob, 11:30:53 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Especially since I'm a wimp! -- HonorH, 12:38:00 03/06/03 Thu

Whaddya think, Ty? How about a hair-pulling hissy fight, a la Xander and Harmony? I could probably manage that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Right, B*tchfest Hand-Slap 2003 is on! -- Tyreseus, 12:53:49 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wait! wait, calm down now... here's another solution. -- WickedBuffy, 17:54:33 03/06/03 Thu

Violence!? noooooo .... and you'll muss your hair all up. You might even put an eye out!

Why don't all of you go on a blind date together WITH the lovely Eliza. Drinks, dinner, dancing... and every hour she eliminates one of you, until only one is left. The winner. Just like the sappy television show!

( I'll film it and put it up n the internet for *everyones* viewing pleasure.)

[> [> But there's one person on this board who loves WKCS more than all of you, and that's... -- THE FIRST EVIL, 23:06:52 03/05/03 Wed

So nhay, she's mine!

I promise not to stab her in the stomach. I promise just to take her home and watch her do pull-ups.

[> [> [> But how much could ya do, being all incorporeal? ;o) -- Rob, 11:32:07 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Damn! -- Masq, 12:17:38 03/06/03 Thu

I need a new super evil-alter ego!

[> [> [> [> Become incorporeal, too? Two - make a +? -- WickedBuffy, 18:06:03 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Re: I'll fight you for her! -- Tess, 23:58:20 03/05/03 Wed

Hehe, I think you guys are going to have to fight Conner for her. That is until Cordy works her evil magic and puts the whammy on him again. Makes sense now, Conner falling for Cordy. She put a spell on him, or I can only hope cause Cordy never made him as giddy or put him in his place quite as firmly as Faith did tonight.

[> I had no idea... (Salvage spoilers) -- Jay, 20:01:09 03/05/03 Wed

Did anyone else know that Faith was going to be on AtS this week?

Point of Fact about Angel's retarded fantasy - Killing the Beast brings back the sun, not how to kill the Beast.

[> Well-known casting spoiler revealed -- CW, 20:15:26 03/05/03 Wed

Yes, as was widely known, Spice Williams returned as our favorite inept assassin of Slayers Debbie/Police Lady (BtVS "What's My Line"). Why does Rob want to marry Spice Williams while proclaiming his love for Eliza Dusku? Don't know, I guess he's fickle. ;o)

[> [> LOL -- Rahael, 02:11:55 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Thanks, CW! -- Darby, 10:43:39 03/06/03 Thu

I knew I recognized her, but I hadn't placed her. In prison for shooting up Sunnydale High after Kendra dragged her out of the burning church?

If she was supposed to be the same character, there's a very interesting symmetry here. Or is this a Cecily - Halfrek misdirect?

[> Great but for one niggling item ... -- Earl Allison, 04:18:04 03/06/03 Thu

I loved last night's episode, so the fact that I only have one little item is a GOOD thing, not bad.

I wasn't sure how to take Faith's ease in sliding into a leadership role. Faith was never the think-it-through, general type. She fought like she lived, by the seat of her pants.

I can accept that prison settled her a bit, but unless she was acting on advice from Wesley, it did seem a bit jarring to see her leading (and better than Buffy, hee!).

Still, one of the best this season, and IMHO head-and-shoulders against anything save perhaps "Selfless" that BtVS has put forth this season.

Take it and run.

[> [> 'watch the periph!' -- WickedBuffy, 19:57:49 03/06/03 Thu

y'know, the only thing that struck me as "off" in the episode was Faith barking commands out like a drill sergeant .The dialogue used in the scenes from approaching the wire fence at the factory to meeting Angel/Angelus could have been lifted directly from a war movie.

Maybe she learned it in prison. But she'd always been a lone wolf, not leader of the pack .... up until now. When she worked for the mayor, she was more a "flunkie" type. (That might not be the right word exactly, but close to it.)

[> [> [> Where do you think 5x5 came from? -- Majin Gojira, 14:55:36 03/07/03 Fri

It's an aeronautics term. it is likely that she hung around with some military in her life (likely airforce). More data needs to be garnered before we can make any assumptions about this however.

[> [> [> [> Wow, it is? -- WickedBuffy, 17:13:14 03/07/03 Fri

I thought it was slang for "everythings stable so no problem" or something like that. What does it mean in aeronautics exactly?

[> Re: Well-known casting spoiler, will you marry me? (Salvage spoilers) -- VampRiley, 09:08:45 03/07/03 Fri

I was overjoyed in their showing Faith as the woman she is. They've been showing her as being in second place in comparison to Buffy as opposed to being more an equal. And I'm glad they're showing her as being the smart, confident and capable woman she really is. Faith is now my favorite slayer. Buffy who?

(snaps his fingers)

No thanks, sister, I've got all the Slayer one man could ever need.

(chuckles)

VR

BtVS spinoff poll at Sci Fi Wire -- Doug, 06:57:55 03/06/03 Thu

There is a poll up at Sci Fi wire asking people who they think should be thelead character for a BtVS spinoff. The URL is this:

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/

When I last checked, the numbers were:

Eliza Dushku's Fath 40%

Michelle Trachtenburg's Dawn 1%

Alyson Hannigan's Willow 4%

James Marsters' Spike 51%

Put a stake in it: it's done 4%

Interesting spread of numbers there, it was much more even a few days ago; but since then first James, then Eliza jumped forward. Not sure how you want to interpret that. In any case, it's a interesting look at what characters are wanted for spinoff

[> Probably the individual actors' fan clubs/agents got wind of it ;-) -- KdS, 08:11:29 03/06/03 Thu

[> No...the internet posting boards got wind of it -- s'kat, 08:35:07 03/06/03 Thu

There are a ton of posting boards out there sending people to vote and believe me, on the internet? Spike is a favorite.

www.bigbad.net - pushing the poll
Buffy Cross and Stake (which I'm avoiding since it is a spoiler board )
Bronze Beta
Joss' Stakehouse
Bloody Awful Poet
Tabula Rasa

the list goes on and on. Who needs fan clubs when you have internet posting boards, many of which are dedicated to one principal character? And in case you're wondering if those percentages are accurate? Just do a search in goggle and see how many character centric websites you find for each character.

[> [> Googlefight Outcome: Eliza OWNZ -- Majin Gojira, 09:02:24 03/06/03 Thu

"Eliza Dushku": 47,200
"James Masters": 3,480

Winner: "Eliza Dushku"

Faith Buffy: 149,000
Spike Buffy: 190,000

Winner: Spike Buffy

Spike: 2,700,000
Faith: 13,100,000

Winner: Faith

Faith Eliza Dushku: 26,700
Spike James Masters: 20,100

Winner: Faith Eliza Dushku

Faith "Eliza Dushku": 26,400
Spike "James Masters": 825

Winner: Faith "Eliza Dushku"

Well, it appears that their are not as many Spike Fans as their are Faith fans. Then again. Spike fans happen to be very loud and adimant. There are few rabbid Faith Fans.

Majin Gojira
------------
Just because it's commonplace doesn't mean it's right.

[> [> [> Re: Googlefight Outcome: Eliza OWNZ -- December, 10:17:13 03/06/03 Thu

I'e never heard of Googlefight. I think that outcoms are also influenced by who knows about them and how many. I think that if there were ever an open, honest poll Spike would still be the favorite. I'm just basing that on what I seen and the people I know - pretty broad range - who like BtvS. (See Golden Fangs, , etc.) Not that any of these polls mean much, especially now.

I'm also curious as to why Spike is represented on the internet more than other characters.

[> [> [> [> Um.... it's Marsters, not Masters -- Masq, 10:51:19 03/06/03 Thu

Nobody say I never defended Spike.

[> [> [> [> [> Yay Masq! Correct spelling is but the first step on the road to Spike love! ;) -- ponygirl, running and hiding, 11:27:38 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> That's just the eenie weenie editor in me... -- Masq, 11:52:44 03/06/03 Thu

And who said I didn't love Spike? I love Season 2 Spike. I love flash-back Spike of 1886 and 1900 and 1977.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just curious... -- Tchaikovsky, 13:52:25 03/06/03 Thu

What about the Spike of 'Lover's Walk'? That's possibly my favourite episode for him.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's when he started to... change -- Masq, 13:56:45 03/06/03 Thu

I remember bringing my Buffy tapes over to a friend I was trying to convert to Buffyism. I never was allowed to tell her what would happen or give my opinions on stuff because she wanted to make up her own mind. But she had the same reaction to Lover's Walk that I did. They were deliberately weakening Spike's character. Changing him. Ret-conning him.

When he came back at the beginning of Season 4, I was glad to see the tough, big bad Spike back. But then of course they had to zap him with the Initiative's chip thingee. It's been all down hill from there.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's actually part of the reason I like 'The Initiative'. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:11:37 03/06/03 Thu

It was the last time Spike got to be truly villainous (except possibly "Out of My Mind", but that ep was undermined by the last scene).

While I prefer Season 2 Evil Spike, I'm not totally adverse to Good Spike. My real beef is Loser Spike. When he was first introduced, Spike was as strong and as powerful as Buffy, as well as being able to plan ahead and go through with it. But, as he began to appear more, they changed Spike into the prophetic description of "a shell of a loser". Spike being constantly humiliated, shown as always bumbling his own plans, and being pathetically weak has always made me a little mad (and that's one of the few problems I used to have with Season 7, because Spike was once again the helpless little vampire (naturally, this changed when the writers both acknowledged it in 7.15 and reversed)).

Unspoiled spec: this is just a hunch of mine, but I think, before the season is over, we will at least get one flashback to Spike when he was still an evil son of a bitch.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's what it was! -- Masq, 15:27:51 03/06/03 Thu

Spike as a loser. I couldn't stand watching it. When he was evil, at least he had confidence. He had that gleam in his eye. He didn't take crap.

*sigh*

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmmm, interesting. But at least he gets to sing 'My Way'! -- Tchaikovsky, 14:44:32 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek -- Masq, 14:53:36 03/06/03 Thu

Because I prefer evilSpike over subsequentSpike and I have a big chip on my shoulder about it because everyone thinks that's nuts.

What can I say. I like bad guys. Not everyone has to be redeemed in fiction.

The writers have gone way past the good ol' days with Spike, and I respect that. I write my episode analyses according to the writer's intentions, not my own likes and dislikes. But I've lost interest in Spike the character, personally speaking.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek -- leslie, 15:11:33 03/06/03 Thu

See, this is my problem with both "Spikes" (and possibly also why I find him such a fascinating character--because if he were perfectly good or perfectly evil what would be the fun?): I loved the energy of "evil" Spike, but I thought he was kind of run-of-the-mill in the kinds of evil he tried to perpetrate. Oh, yeah, kill the Slayer, well, get in line, boyo. What made him interesting was not that he was evil, but that he was in love with a crazy person and actually seemed to cope with it quite well. When he decided to ally with Buffy to get Dru back, that was when he got really interesting, and even more so as he started to try to deal with all the fallout of that alliance.

What made the chip justify the loss of over-the-top Spike was that it made him have to come up with alternative ways of behaving, and I greatly enjoyed watching his endless attempts to come up with a workable persona. The thing is, I don't see why having a soul and even being "good" means that Spike has to be Mr. Mopey, just aside from the fact that that's one of the reasons I have never particularly cared for the character of Angel. What I want to see at the end is Spike having the time of his life beating the crap out of bad guys, thumbing his nose at authority, appreciating the bloody absurdity of life, retaining his role as Speaker Of Uncomfortable Truths, and, yes, "good." Not just because he's more fun that way, but because I'm getting kind of fed up that the writing is falling into the trap of the "being good is serious business and being a punk is evil" ideology. I want a good punk.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! Agree...well said. -- s'kat, 15:29:44 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreed. Spike with a soul doesn't really work for me either -- Miss Edith, 15:32:24 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> My feelings about the two views of Spike -- Doug, 15:49:46 03/06/03 Thu

I've always liked Spike. Initially I was a supporter of the whole Redemption thing because I've always believed that even if you can't change your life, you can change who you are. I believe that because it's what I see and know in my life (short as that has been to date). But on the other hand I always loved the ass-kicking side of the character; the raging, wild, warrior. So I'm conflicted; I like the idea of redemption and believe in it, but I crave the ass-kicking Spike of earlier seasons. The one who fought Buffy in "School Hard", the one who beat down that A-hole Angelus in "Becoming", the one who ran up a car and fought a horde of other vamps in "Lover's Walk"; the Warrior.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Season 2 Spike was my template for moral ambiguity -- Masq, 15:57:21 03/06/03 Thu

See, that's what folks who hear my position don't get. Season 2 Spike and pre-Buffy Spike was never two dimensional. He was 3-dimensional. In love with Drusilla, capable of being brought to tears by the sadistic Angelus. He was a complex man with his own obsessions, self-doubts, strengths, and personality.

Then then turned him into the kind of man he would have to be to make a relationship with Buffy not totally morally offensive, and I just didn't like him at that point. Equally complex character, but not the way I liked him.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This brings up an interesting point on both Angel and Spike -- s'kat, 17:59:05 03/06/03 Thu

Why does Angelus and non-souled S2/S4(possibly 5) Spike have better one-liners and are smarter than Angel and Spike?
Don't the writers know how to write good lines and chutzpah for heroic males? They do it for Buffy and Faith.

I was talking to a friend tonight about Angelus, they are a late-comer to Angel, yes I converted someone, and have begun to love the show because of Angelus. They told me tonight that they are actually watching it now as much for Angelus as for Wesley, if not more so. (They found Angel boring and until Boreanze became Angelus, thought he couldn't act.) And they wanted to know why Angel didn't get the cool one-liners and wasn't as smart and interesting as his evil ulter-ego. At first I tried to argue this, pointing out there were moments in S2 Ats they hadn't seen where Angel was a little dark and interesting yet still souled but realized they had a point.

To me Angel was most interesting when he got dark, because his lines were better, he seemed tougher, brighter, more
unpredictable. For some reason the writers gave him more to do, more snap, more sparkle then they did when he's souled. Same with Spike - he was more interesting in Becoming, The Initiative, Out of My Mind, even some of the Season 4 episodes. While I still love him...I wonder why you can't have him be strong, cynical, and snarky ensouled? Does good have to equal sappy, brooding, contained and dull?
Also the whole smoking thing? Excuse me - if I was going through withdrawl and a world of pain - I'd be chain-smoking (I don't smoke, allergic, but I have friends who do).

I've always had troubles with ME and TV's depiction of heros as boring and villains as interesting. It occurs in Smallville too - Lex has better lines and cooler attitude than Clark. Why is that? Am I nuts?

sigh.

SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: This brings up an interesting point on both Angel and Spike -- Miss Edith, 18:14:41 03/06/03 Thu

I think it's a case of Angel and Spike needing to brood to show they have regretted their past. The spoiler hos were told of a scene between Xander and Spike in Him in which Spike sarcastically says "What was that? The voices in my head are telling me to kill Xander". It wasn't included presumedly because Spike needed to be shown suffering, and therefore cannot be witty or have snark until a suitable amount of time has passed. Anya never needed to though interestingly enough. Although you could argue that her redemption arc never received as much focus as Spike and Angel anyway. Her killings and torture were only treated seriously in Selfess from what I recall, otherwise her character and crimes were played off as a joke. If characters need to be taken seriously it seems they must go through a stage of brooding. Presumedly Faith did her brooding off-screen whilst in jail.

And smoking is evil, hence Spike quiting the evil weed. Just to make a point to the kiddies I suppose about smoking being baaad.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Season 2 Spike was my template for moral ambiguity -- leslie, 08:27:51 03/07/03 Fri

"See, that's what folks who hear my position don't get. Season 2 Spike and pre-Buffy Spike was never two dimensional. He was 3-dimensional. In love with Drusilla, capable of being brought to tears by the sadistic Angelus. He was a complex man with his own obsessions, self-doubts, strengths, and personality."

Well, I wasn't saying that Spike was two-dimesional at the start, I'm saying that I thought his evilness was two-dimensional. The things that made him interesting were not really the "evil" parts of him, i.e., they were things that, at least theoretically, he should be able to still evince even with a soul--the ever-changing travails of love, the disrespect for authority (which, to my mind, is actually the reason why he is a good match for Buffy, at least back in the days when she, too, had no use for authority instead of setting herself up as the authority, as she has been doing this season), and the fact that he really only seems to be happy when fighting, well, I think that's even more complex in a "good" character than an "evil" one. But as for creative villainy--come on, did he ever come even close to the Mayor's "I just want to be a giant snake"? Or even Adam's "I seem to have a bunch of time on my hands so I think I'll create a whole new race of human/demon/cyborg mutants"? His cleverness is in creating chaos, not in villainy per se.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spike does, though, seem to be getting his attitude back on. -- HonorH, 16:02:30 03/06/03 Thu

If the last two eps are any indication, he's getting a little of his old badass back. These things take time when you're newly ensouled.

Me? I love all incarnations of Spike--Evil!Spike, Chipped!Spike, trying-to-be-good Spike, trying-to-be-evil Spike, Lover!Spike, Jerk!Spike, and even Crazy!Spike. Marsters makes them all interesting, IMHO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm with you, HonorH! :) -- Ixchel, 23:18:46 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes- and that's yet another reason why they're brilliant! -- Tchaikovsky, 15:22:14 03/06/03 Thu

Don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I've really enjoyed reading your Angel reviews during the Second Season. I've been avoiding them until I write my thoughts, because I don't want another perspective to modify my own, just like your friend. But after I've posted my unaffected initial reactions, I leap right in. It often clarifies the holes in my understanding of the plot twists, usually explains a couple of philosophies that I would never otherwise consider, and always gives the clearest and least biassed summation of the characters' developments that I've found anywhere.

In short, go Masq!

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Gosh, *blush*, glad I could help. : ) -- Masq, 15:37:24 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek -- Dead Soul, 00:16:52 03/07/03 Fri

What can I say. I like bad guys. Not everyone has to be redeemed in fiction.

Word!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hmmm, interesting. But at least he gets to sing 'My Way'! -- pilgrim, 19:42:01 03/06/03 Thu

Hehehe. Also giggling to myself remembering Spike pounding Lenny the vamp, "Baby like his supper, baby like his supper," then philosophizing--"Love's a funny thing." Ahh, Spike at his most out-of-control and outrageous and funny.

[> [> [> [> [> Damn, that means I have to do it again -_-;;; -- Majin Gojira, 07:54:03 03/07/03 Fri

"Eliza Dushku": 48,200
"James Marsters": 38,500
Winner: "Eliza Dushku"

Eliza Dushku: 50,500
James Marsters: 34,800
Winner-Eliza Dushku

Faith Eliza Dushku: 27,900
Spike James Marsters: 20,000
Winner: Faith Eliza Dushku

Faith "Eliza Dushku": 25,200
Spike "James Marsters": 19,000
Winner: Faith "Eliza Dushku"

Now, the final tests:
Faith Spinoff: 6,500
Spike Spinoff: 2,840
Winner: Faith Spinoff

Now we can all rest easy in knowing the truth :P

Web Site: http://www.googlefight.com/

[> [> [> [> That's the story anyway -- Doug, 13:29:56 03/06/03 Thu

"I'm also curious as to why Spike is represented on the internet more than other characters."

I'm not sure if any evidence has ever been provided to confirm or deny this. I really don't know that many people in my day-to-day life that are fans of the show; but those I do know tend to be fans of Spike on BtVS, and Wesley on AtS. Faith is regarded well by some badly by others. The group was a mixture of male and female, and were of High School age.

But that means *nothing*. That was my experience from a small group of teenagers going to a Downtown Academic Highschool in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Which doesn't say anything at all about the numbers of fans of each character in total. It just shows what my little corner of the world is like fanbase-wise.

So how is it possible to say that Spike fans are more likely to go online than other fans, when no one individual has taken the views of each and every fan, online and off?

I have heard from people time and time again about how Spike fans are just more vocal and more likely to interact online, and how Xander fans who are Spike haters are really the hidden majority. I have yet to hear any explanation offered as to why that would be so, or any proof that it is so. That doesn't mean that it isn't so "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence", it's just that it's almost completely un-provable, and almost completely impossible to disprove.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: That's the story anyway -- Miss Edith, 15:06:42 03/06/03 Thu

An SFX readers poll for the top 100 characters in Science fiction recently had Spike voted the second most popular character, Buffy in third place, and Xander something like 87. In magazine polls over here in the UK James Marsters is constantly winning awards. I believe UPN conducted a poll in which it was concluded that Xander and Dawn were significantly less popular than the other characters. I think it's just wishful thinking if Xander fans believe he is more popular with the general audience than Spike. Not that it really matters but seeing as we're all discussing it *shrug*

[> [> [> [> Some theories -- s'kat, 15:26:16 03/06/03 Thu

I'm also curious as to why Spike is represented on the internet more than other characters.

I've had a lot of interaction with Spikeobsessed and other characterobsessed fans due to the character essays I've written. I think the internet tends to exaggerate it - due to our ability to stroke the obsession through posting boards, essay writing, fanfics, downloads, etc. Of all the characters - I'd have to say Spike remains the one people are the most obsessed with - hence all the articles that have popped up about him.

Spike gets so many people interested because he runs the character gamit. You can literally pick the Spike version you like.

Spike started as an evil over-the-top very cool villain, there are sites out there devoted to Spike as big bad Spike and villain. (circa Season 2 School Hard through Becoming)This group pretends the last four years never happened. Spike was sired by Angelus and they tend to specialize in fic related to that. Season 2 web sites I call them. This is the evilistras. They like big bad Spike.
In their fic - Spike was a street kid as a human, who got grabbed by Angelus and developed over time a relationship with Dru. I think the main site for this group is called Fanged Four or something like that.

Then there's the group of Spike fans - the redemptionists, who didn't start liking Spike until roughly Season 5: Fool For Love. Their fanfic and essays and boards are concerned with how Spike can be redeemed. Some of these sites redeemed Spike in S5. Some are going along with the show.
The prinicipal site is BAPS - www.bloodyawfulpoet.com

Then there's the philosophical group who is into the whole existential journey of Spike, they started liking Spike when he got chipped in Season 4 and were obsessed with the idea that Spike could find his own path. They've never been fond of Angel/angelus storyline - and find it to be rather offensive. Much prefering the idea that we determine our own paths. Angel, they strongly feel has a pre-determined path. So their love of Spike can be interpreted partly as a reaction against the whole soul cannon idea. This group was infruriated by the fact that Spike got a soul last year. The fact Spike chose that soul has helped a little but not much. They hold out the hope that Spike will lose his soul and it will turn out that he never needed it to begin with...it was always there deep inside him and he'll find redemption soulless. AllAboutSpike is the site that holds this view.

Then there's the group that is just turned on by the charisma of the actor. The actor is apparently very charming in person and unlike the other cast members goes out of his way for his fans. SMG, DB, AD, ED, AH, NB, EC,
ASH, do not go to as many fan conventions and interact with fans as much as James Marsters does. Also Marsters gives amazingly informative interviews. SMG talks about her next movie role or what she's wearing or how she got picked. Marster talks about how he prepared for a scene, the acting process, the writing of an episode, the character arc, and then gives a performance requested by fans. Now, I've never been to a fan convention (not really my thing) but I love reading his interviews they are full of juicy tidbits on method acting and the process of filming. He's the only one outside of possibly ASH who does this. And I've read interviews with Denisof and Dusku and Gellar. That is partly why he's so popular.

Then we have the Ghost in The Robot groupies - the guy has a band, so he's milking that fan base. And he's been giving live performances. Up until recentally some of these performances weren't that expensive. And he's traveled to give them. That alone drums up fans.

And finally you have the fact that the character is almost completely unpredictable. Each year his character arc changes drastically and the actor plays it for all it's worth. I've watched these shows from the beginning and I swear Marsters is almost unrecognizable from year to year.
He plays a different version of the same role. One year, S5, critics stated he was the character who'd developed the most. So we have websites obsessed with tracking the character and just trying to figure him out. Not to mention figuring out where this actor, who doesn't appear in all that much, will turn up next.

All these factors equal major popularity. And it does not hurt that he is very gracious to his castmates and the writers. He was the biggest fan of Firefly. He's Gellar's biggest fan. He has never once spoken derogatory about any writer or script or season arc. That's a wise thing to do.

If you want to create a character that will obsess people?
Make it as ambiguous as possible, keep them guessing, make it a character that will polarize the audience. These characters tend to get attention. Why do you think Faith - a supporting character, never a regular, and not in all that many episodes - took off the way she did? She's ambiguous morally. She's done horrible things but could be redeemed. She has sex appeal. Is played by a charismatic actress. And is hard to pin down. These things make her far more interesting to fans than less ambiguous characters. Hence the reason Whedon wanted to do a Faith spinoff.

[> [> [> Re: Googlefight Outcome: Eliza OWNZ -- Miss Edith, 15:00:14 03/06/03 Thu

James Masters is another actor who appeared in the last season of Ally McBeal. He is not the same as James Marsters, just similar names. And there are certainly far more websites dedicated to Spike if we're going to talk about who is the more popular character. A whole range of websites too for those who prefer evil Spike, B/S shippers, those who just want to see Spike redeemed etc.

My Grand Theory (spec & spoilers AtVS Salvage) -- WickedBuffy ::donning festive chainmail outfit::, 10:35:29 03/06/03 Thu

ok - here goes! ;>

I speculate (as posted far below this one) that Evil Cordy isn't pregnant. This "thing" is all-powerful, it might be a fake Cordy while Cordy is hidden away someplace. Faking a pregnancy would be easy. Besides, they already did the demon pregnancy bit with Darla and Connor - seems to repetitive too carry it out.

My major speculation (if anyone is reading this far) is that Angelus isn't Angelus. It's Angel. His soul isn't stolen, it's safely in him. He realized the only way to get to the source of the evil, the big boss, was to pretend to be Angelus. Have you seen him kill anyone? He didn't feed when he first ran out to the streets. He spiked a vampire ex-gf who was pushing him for info Angelus had, but Angel didn't. He killed The Beast. He's injured people, but that's because it has to look as real as possible. He liked that everyone thought he was feeding on Lilah. He conveniently didn't bite the screaming girl. He shot Cordy in the leg, no vital organs. He's working on getting closer to the source of the evil in the guise of Angelus. Desperate strategy, but these are desperate times.

The bar scene wasn't for plot, it was for us, the viewers. Misdirection - look, there's Angelus boasting about himself to the vamps. That Angelus, what a braggert. (Poor Mr. Fury, heh)

Calling Sunnydale? He was making sure it wasn't Buffy. Buffy knows him. Buffy might see thru him. Buffy would get hurt. Basically, he doesn't want to have to beat her up. That would really put the plot in jeopardy.

Does he know who the Evil is yet? I don't think so - maybe everyone is suspect to him, though it seems he might have one confident - maybe Lorne? Maybe not.

If you keep looking, there are more things that support the Angel is playing them all.

OK, shoot me down now. I'm ready! ;>

[> Bloody Frell -- WickedSlowTypist, 10:41:11 03/06/03 Thu

arghhhhhh

Deeva posted his/ her co-workers comment while I was typoing mine in.

of course, Deeva had a better disclaimer that I forgot to include in mine - heh here, I'll quote it

" ....I apologize if this has been postulated/suggested before"

[> [> Re: Bloody Frell -- Slainey, 11:55:36 03/06/03 Thu

Good points
Regular Cordy had a demony pregnancy once before too, in A:ts Season 1 Expecting.

Souled from Souless or since the "spell" Cordy performed?
All those terrible things he said to the rest of the AI crew that was to... air all the dirty laundry and get them to work together maybe?

Of course, my pet theory is that Cordelia has been evil since Welcome to the Hellmouth. :-)

As hard as it is for Angel to think about the bit of Angelus in him, it is even more interesting to see Angelus have to deal with the Angel in him. That would be cooler than Angel tricking Faith AGAIN into thinking he's Angelus.

[> [> [> Retricking Faith (spoilers Salvage) -- WickedBuffy, 19:00:43 03/06/03 Thu

" That would be cooler than Angel tricking Faith AGAIN into thinking he's Angelus."

I wonder if she knows or is going to know real soon, though. (Which would dilute the tricking Faith again scene from BtVS)

The last thing Angel/Angelus said to Faith as he left, right after she broke open the factory window to let the sun in was:

"Just you and me now, Faithy." ::wink::

What do you think that meant? Suppose Lilah was the "inside" person, who stole the soul and resouled Angel before Evil Cordys fake spell. Lilahs dead now, by ECs hand, so that left only Angel/Angelus left knowing about the plan to uncover The Beasts Boss. If Angel/Angelus left clues for Faith during those interactions in Salvage - his parting words could have alluded to who knew what was going on re: Angelus/Angel. And the only two able to carry out the strategy.

[> Here it is WickedBuffy!!!! -- Masq, 17:44:50 03/06/03 Thu

[> [> Masq! thank you Oh Most Powerful VoyBeast Slayer! :> -- WickedGrateful (All that typoing wasn't wasted after all), 18:20:00 03/06/03 Thu

[> I'm likin' it! (Future Spec, Spoiler for Salvage) -- lurking dub, 18:29:36 03/06/03 Thu

My main problem with this week's ep was why the heck would Angelus save Faith, a Slayer, by killing the Beast for her? When you put it together with some of your other observations it starts to look even more suspicious...

And totally agree with you that that isn't Cordy. Can't be. (Okay, I'm a well-known Spoiler Trollop, but truly this is all spec on my part.)

;o)

[> [> Re: I'm likin' it! (Future Spec, Spoiler for Salvage) -- WickedBuffy, 19:16:22 03/06/03 Thu

Exactly! He did save Faith from the Beast. If you start relooking at the show from the perspective that it's Angel playing Angelus, then the "off" things don't feel as "off". Events make a different kind of sense.

I replayed the scene in the phone booth and the look on his face looked like pure Angel. I could be projecting (heh) but for a moment he looked incredibly relieved.

(I'm rethinking the Cordy part, though. Maybe it's her body and the Boss in it can do all kinds of things with it - like look pregnant. I wonder if it totally took over during the resouling spell and had just been "visiting" Cordy at times before then. It's still such a wonderful puzzle, though! Tryig to figure out the timing of things.)

[> [> [> Angel's Memory (Future Spec, Spoiler for Salvage) -- SableHart, 19:37:11 03/06/03 Thu

I really like "The Theory". It really seems to fit with a lot of what's going on in the series. I just wanted to comment on the memory issue that a few posters brought up. I think its been established that the only memories Angelus has that Angel doesn't are the memories of the Beast. That was part of the perfect revenge of the gypsy curse--Angel could remember everyone he'd killed as Angelus. I think he didn't kill Rosario because he didn't remember her, but rather, because she was going to go hit a pre-school. It seems like for a second, Angel could fufill his role as Angelus and do a little bit of good.

[> [> Oh, that isn't what he was doing... (4.13 spoilers) -- Masq, 20:02:27 03/06/03 Thu

He wanted to kill the Beast because Angelus doesn't like having to cow-tow to other Bads. The Beast and his boss want Angelus as a minion. Angelus doesn't do minion-ing. He wants the stage for himself. He's not a team player. And he wanted to prove he is just as smart as Angel. Smarter. He could kill the Beast and Angel couldn't.

Faith, well, she'd either get killed by the Beast or by himself. Angelus prefered it be himself. He steps in before the Beast can kill her so he can kill the Slayer himself. Nothing better than killing the Slayer Angel tried to redeem.

Faith manages to save herself from Angelus. But he'd have had her otherwise.

[> [> [> but what's the bigger picture?... (4.13 spoilers) -- WickedBuffy, 20:36:28 03/06/03 Thu

But if The Boss is so all-powerful, wouldn't it realize that Angelus doesn't kow-tow to anyone, ever. He's been llike that for hundreds of years, it's what he is, no ones "flunkie".

The fact is Angel/Angelus has so far killed two demons and no humans.

Do we really know why The Boss wants him alive? Wants him at all? What's the big picture goal for it? Why does Angel/Angelus play a vital part in The Bosses plan?

[> [> Re: I'm likin' it! (Future Spec, Spoiler for Salvage) -- CW, 21:09:29 03/06/03 Thu

No kidding future speculation here.

If you ask me it wasn't Angelus. Where better to hide Angel's soul than in Angel? Angelus has been acting very strangely don't you think?
I don't know what's going on with Cordy, but if anything we've heard is true, she's carrying a decendant of Angel. Angel's fetal son turned Darla good, couldn't it be Angel's fetal grandson who's turning Cordy bad?

[> [> [> But see... -- lurking dub, 07:23:06 03/07/03 Fri

...to make sense of this whole thing I personally have to believe that Cordy was already big-time evil when she slept with Connor.

I'm goin' with the idea that it wasn't really Cordy who came back from that Higher Dimension; Cordy is still trapped there and really pi$$ed about it!

On the Angel front, one of my major convincers is that AFAIK Lorne has never been wrong before.

;o)

[> [> [> [> Re: But see... -- Arethusa, 07:50:56 03/07/03 Fri

I agree about Cordy. And Lorne-but maybe Lorne's reading will make Angel realize that Angelus and Angel aren't two separate entities-they are one man, with one soul, and a submerged demon essence. Angelus' actions are based on Angel's personality, not the demon's. I think that's what Angel has been unable to accept, and is what he must come to realize.

[> [> [> [> [> on the lorne front -- anom, 11:08:28 03/07/03 Fri

Dub said: "On the Angel front, one of my major convincers is that AFAIK Lorne has never been wrong before."

Not flat-out wrong, but sometimes selective, as in his partial read of Wesley when he was taking baby Connor. Ever wonder why Wes' fear of what Angel might do & his conflict over the whole thing didn't come through more strongly than the fact he'd met w/Holtz & didn't plan to bring Connor back? Aside from plot considerations, that is....

Arethusa wrote: "...Angelus and Angel aren't two separate entities--they are one man, with one soul, and a submerged demon essence."

Um...then what's that in the jar that disappeared from the safe?

[> [> [> [> [> [> D'oh!--Spoilers for AtS to date. -- Arethusa, smacking forehead., 11:22:55 03/07/03 Fri

Perhaps the spell Cordelius performed was to fool Lorne that Angel's soul was returned.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: D'oh!--Spoilers for AtS to date. -- WickedBuffy, 12:21:59 03/07/03 Fri

Figuring out what's up with Cordelia seems to be key. When did she become Evil?

and the question I always consider: "What ways could we have possibly be misdirected by ME?"

Was it during the soul spell? Since the beginning of the season? I don't have any taped shows to be able to look back and watch her. Posters have commented they thought she looked pretty genuinely upset after she had slept with Connor - but then again that one act did set it up for the "pregnancy" now. (I don't think she's pregnant, though. Haven't they already reached their Federal Allotment of Demon Pregnancies?)

*Things I don't want to see on AtVS: Finding out the dream Angel had is real and all this is a nightmare he has later. heh. okok they wouldn't do that, but don't we always warily look over our shoulders for the "it's a dream" or "it's an alternate dimension" explanation?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's the theory I have in my ep analysis -- Masq, 14:13:39 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> that silly Lorne! (possible AtVS spoiler thru Salvage) -- WickedBuffy, 12:15:45 03/07/03 Fri

I don't think Lorne was wrong - it is Angel. Which could also be another reason he suddenly (after all this time) pressed to have the Hotel protected by the spell he and the Furies cooked up. It will also protect Angel when he comes in - from outsiders AND from Connor.

Even if both Angel AND Angelus are in the body now, I believe Angel is the one in control - utilizing Angelus' nuances and habits to further the show while being able to look out for nondemons at the same tine.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Let's look at the evidence: -- Arethusa, 12:50:50 03/07/03 Fri

1. Angel sees Lilah dead, says "That's no fun." No witnesses, so probably Angelus.

2. Held Lilah in arms, snacking. Winesses, so could be either.

3. In the demon bar. All actions are witnessed, so could be either Angel or Angelus. No humans are hurt, bad vampire killed and good or gray demon injured slightly.

4. On the street/Phone call to Dawn. He could have been faking Angelus on the street, but what advantage would that give him?
Dawn-He sighed in exasperation when he realized he'd be dealing with Faith instead of the more emotionally vulnerable Buffy. No witnesses, so probably Angelus.

5. First meeting with Beast. Could be either, since Angel miight have slipped up calling the beast a friend, or Angelus could have been yanking the Beast's chain.

. Second meeting w/ Beast. It's posssible Angel would let the Beast whale on Faith since he kills it before it kills her. But the Beast Master didn't interfere with the killing, so he probably wasn't there. And why would he want to decieve Faith? If the bad guy is connected to or spying on AI, which Angel must suspect (Lilah's death), Faith could still be told.

I think it's Angelus. But then, I'm nearly always wrong. ;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers for Salvage above -- Careless Arethusa, 12:52:33 03/07/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Let's look at the evidence: - this way ... (spoilers Salvage) -- WickedBuffy oOO this is fun!, 14:31:49 03/07/03 Fri

First off and most important - Angel doesn't know who or even "what" The Boss is. Only that it's got incredible power, correct? And what['s one of the most important rules in this type of adventure? Never underestimate your opponent.

The Boss could be anywhere and everywhere. Angel has no idea of all it can do or what it's limitations are. Could it be watching him now or.... right now? The only way to be sure of such a vague creature is to carry out the farce 24/7.

That's my response to #1. #2? I didn't see him snacking, specifically. The assumption is that is what he was doing because of his pose. #3 & #4 same as #1. Plus, on the same basis you could say that, I could also say I interpreted his sigh (especially at the beginning of it) was of relief it wasn't Buffy. He doesn't want Buffy involved, doesn't want her hurt, doesn't want to have to beat her up and doesn't want his soulmate to see right thru the deception and either ruin it accidentally or get even more involved and therefore in danger.

"Second meeting w/ Beast. It's posssible Angel would let the Beast whale on Faith since he kills it before it kills her. But the Beast Master didn't interfere with the killing, so he probably wasn't there. And why would he want to decieve Faith? If the bad guy is connected to or spying on AI, which Angel must suspect (Lilah's death), Faith could still be told."

Angel doesn't know who is friend and who is foe yet ... it could be anyone. Even Faith. He does stop the Beast from killing her - which pretty much also helped proved to him Faith *isn't* a baddie." I think he WILL tell her,, if she doesn't have an inkling yet. Remeber his last words as he left her in the warehous?

"Just you and me, Faithie."

"

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Let's look at the evidence: - this way ... (spoilers Salvage) -- Arethusa, 14:46:03 03/07/03 Fri

You could be right. I like your possibilities too becuse I lie the idea of Angel completely submerging himself under the persona of Angelus. He could find it a tremendous relief to vent all of his recklessness, anger and frustrations.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ok--i might buy this explanation -- Seven, 16:10:50 03/07/03 Fri

Two points have been made now.

One is that Angel has faked Angelus so that the team could air their dirty laundry. That makes sense. I'll buy that. Before Angel decided to take out his soul, the team was falling apart and he knew it. He knew about Wes and Liliah, he knew about Cord and Conner and he probably realized the love triangle with Wes, Gunn and Fred. If one looks back, look at Angel's reaction to Cordelia when he decides to take out his soul after all. Its almost as if he's realizing somehting huge.

The other big clue is that Angel doesn't know what the boss can do or where she is so he's gotta keep the act going but he's doing his best not to actually kill anyone.

My biggest concern though is that this is the case. that Angelus is just Angel and that Angelus and Faith still haven't met. But Angels comment about this is actually more of a clue that it is angel than anything else.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OOH, OOH, Another thought!! (Future speculation) -- lurking dub (not being very successful at the lurking part), 16:56:03 03/07/03 Fri

We know Angel did lose his soul, if only briefly, because as anom says we saw it in the bottle that was put in the safe.

Okay, if he is now Angel, as I believe, then it's because someone stole his soul from the safe and secretly returned it to him, and that someone therefore knows that he is no longer Angelus. In other words, he has a secret ally. We could go through the whole AI team and figure out how likely it is that any one of them might be the ally, but hey, haven't we just been introduced to an incredibly successful thief with a less-than-professional interest in Angel who doesn't seem to be filling any other useful purpose this season? That's right: Gwen Raiden, Electro Girl!

This is fun. It's probably all whacko, but it's fun.

;o)

[> I gotta admit . . . -- CrookedMind, 04:28:15 03/07/03 Fri

. . . this Grand Theory is well worth considering! We know from the past that Angel can "act" Angelus quite convincingly . . . then again so should Faith after she bought into his acting in BtVS S3.

Great . . . now I'm gonna have to start rewatching episodes and looking for clues . . .

[> [> Re: I gotta admit . . . -- Slainey, 06:24:10 03/07/03 Fri

There's just one thing. When Angelus was released by Cordy and leaves the hotel one of the first things he does is go after a little blonde girl. She's a vampire and therefore not the nummy treat he was expecting. No one was watching this. No on to fool.

[> [> [> And maybe... -- lurking dub, 07:27:31 03/07/03 Fri

...his intention (as Angel) was to save that little blonde girl and get her the heck outta there. No point when he realized she was already vamped...

(The only ones it would be necessary to fool would be other vamps on the prowl for nummy little blonde treats.)

;o)

[> yeah, but----SPOILERS!!! for the future too!!!! -- Seven, 15:47:36 03/07/03 Fri

This makes some sense

I was thinking just the same thing. Especially with Angelus apearently joining Cordelius in the next episode.

the problem with this lies in the could-have-beens. One, he was trying to feed when no one was looking. he would have killed that girl. he would have killed that little girl in calvery but she was already vamped.

It's a nice thought but the clincher is another WKCS who is likely coming over to possibly return his soul.

[> ok -- this is it--with some unofficial help from SK -- Seven, 16:23:52 03/07/03 Fri

SK mentioned in her synopsis of Willow as a character and what she symbolises that in a show such as this, the main character (ie Buffy or Angel) never truly go bad.

This has been documented. Faith and Willow take the place of an evil buffy and Angel has appearently gone back to his Angelus ways twice(?) but in fact didn't. the "happy pill" was synthetic happiness, so it didn't hold. (although i don't buy this ep one way or the other, if he has happiness for a second, whether real or imaginery, Angelus comes out, doesn't matter if it ain't real)

What i'm getting at is that Angel as a character shouldn't actually ever go bad for real if he is to stay in tune with the character (champion) he represents.

So theoretically, he's all Angel Baby!!! but i hope i'm wrong--go against the norm ME. You always have before. Make him bad for real!!!

[> B4 I read them, are there spoilers PAST Salvage up there, Seven? -- WickedBuffy ::don't wanna know anything not on TV yet::, 17:21:08 03/07/03 Fri

[> Anyone sure when Cordys most recent ... (spoil to Salvage) -- WickedBuffy, 17:38:39 03/07/03 Fri

visions were? I know she had one about the resoul spell. There was at least one in Angels dream. But before those ... I'm trying to track back for a possible clue about when she "changed over" to Evil Cordy. Trying to figure out what seems most "sincere", I guess... something.

I was going on the speculation that perhaps she got evil when she started getting those visions about The Beast.

But in "Spin the Bottle", when Lorne is narrating how the story ended, he gave two endings. One was ok, it seemed a happy ending. Then he inferred that really wasn't the ending - and told how after he touched the potion to Cordys tongue:

"When Cordelia opens her eyes, the hotel lobby is gone. A massive and hideous BEAST is before her. Its red eyes snap open and look right at her."

Was that The Beast she saw or another one? That's when she said she remembered everything and couldn't talk about it.

[> Now what if... -- ponygirl, 18:54:37 03/07/03 Fri

Maybe Angel isn't Angelus but *thinks* he is. Perhaps the fantasy's purpose wasn't to actually desoul Angel but make him believe he had lost his soul. Power of suggestion and all that, but with his submerged conscience preventing him from doing real damage.

These theories are fun, but what I really hope is addressed is this split personality issue, the acceptance of Angel and Angelus as two different people. Guys, uh, I mean guy, you're one person! Same mind, same memory, everything else is just a construct created to avoid some painful truths. I'm hoping that we, and Angel, find out in the end that souls aren't the be-all and end-all that they've been made out to be.

[> [> Re: Now what if... ::WB rambles on:: -- WickedBuffy .... I Iove 'what ifs''! :>, 20:31:38 03/07/03 Fri

Wow - that first part is something to think about. But why and who? If this were AtVS last season, I would buy that in a second. It would be such a tidy ending to his journey. It's still something to add to the stew. If this was a comic book or cartoon, we could probably actually be shown the struggle going on inside him.

I think that two fo the main levels of discussing the shows are literal and that other kind ummm.... metaphorical? On one level, people discuss what actually is happening or might happen - more of the mechanics of how this or that could be or was. On another level, people write threads about what the show represents - psychological, philisophical, ethical, etc.

So, two personalities in one person as you suggested might be the first method, an action that might have happened. The implications on a grander scale would be the second part - about the soul, about coming to terms with two parts of yourself.

There's the show is we actually see and and the one get meaning from. Same show.

I think this thread is focusing more on the first way. ::don't shoot me if I'm wrong:

Did, that make sense? Of course, there are lots of crossovers and grey areas, too. Those two levels were just extremes on different ends of the spectrum.

You probably already noticed all that - I was just guessing an answer to your question about why it hasn't been brought up yet.

I was wondering, though - on a different topic - what do you think ME is trying to say about souls? and what would be the end-all instead of a soul? Maybe that's a different post or something, though.

*::disclaimer-these are my personal opinons based on what I've noticed in my short time here::

Current board | More March 2003