March 2003 posts
Responding
to TCH: cjl's review of ANGEL S2 (2nd in an annoying continuing
series) -- cjl, 08:36:53 03/05/03 Wed
Overall, this was my favorite season of ANGEL until S4 rolled
along, and it still contains my all-time favorite scene in either
series. The Darla arc was extraordinarily well-done, and threw
light on Angel's history on BUFFY as well as his own.
I loved the Pylea arc. I thought the fairy-tale underpinnings
and deceptive brightness were a welcome change for this series,
and we could view all our main characters from an entirely new
perspective. shadowkat told me Joss and ME had planned to ramp
up to another Darla mini-arc to end the season, but all (yes,
ALL) of their guest stars bailed out on them: Christian Kane,
Julie Benz and Juliet Landau. If they went to the Pylea arc out
of desperation, the guys (and Mere) should be desperate more often.
To the ratings:
JUDGMENT Original airdate: September 26, 2000. Written by: David
Greenwalt. Directed by: Michael Lange. Guest stars: Christian
Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julie
Benz as Darla, Eliza Dushku as Faith, Justina Machado as Jo, Andy
Hallett as The Host.
The "Justice League" opening had me on the floor laughing.
But as Tim Minear said in his SFX summary, it was wise to adjust
the perception of Angel's mission after the golden promise of
TSILA got everybody's hopes up (the fans and Angel himself.) I
was affected by Justina Machado as Jo much more than most of Angel's
rescuees, and I'm wondering what her child will be like when it
grows up. Solid opener.
Rating: 8 out of 10.
ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN? Original airdate: October 3,
2000. Written by: Tim Minear. Directed by: David Semel. Guest
stars: Melissa Marsala as Judy, John Kapelos as Roland Meeks,
Tommy Hinkley as the P.I., J.P. Manoux as the bellman.
An instant classic--but for some reason, I found the McCarthy-era
allegory a little bit too schematic and the '50s-era characters
themselves suffered for it. Still, not much to complain about
otherwise: the scene with Judy at the end, the mob hanging Angel,
and Angel proclaiming the hotel cleansed of eeeevil are triumphs.
(Yes, the House at Metaphor strikes again! Angel should hire Xander
to fix the windows and big fights...)
9 out 10.
FIRST IMPRESSIONS Original airdate: October 10, 2000. Written
by: Shawn Ryan. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Julie
Benz as Darla, David Herman as David Nabbit, Andy Hallett as The
Host, Cedrick Terrell as Jameel.
The Darla arc moves along in baby steps, while Cordelia and Gunn
exhibit oil-and-water chemistry that drains the life out of episodes.
Not bad, but utterly forgettable.
6 out of 10.
UNTOUCHED Original airdate: October 17, 2000. Written by: Mere
Smith. Directed by: Joss Whedon. Guest Stars: Daisy McCrackin
as Bethany, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julie Benz as Darla,
Sam Anderson as Holland Manners.
A terrific psychological suspense ep, with solid work turned in
by all our leads, and an especially wicked turn from Stephanie
Romanov, as Lilah finally hits the big leagues. (Wouldn't it have
been great if Lilah set up a Morgan House for Gifted Girls, kind
of like an evil version of Casa Summers and the potentials?) Like
the way Bethany's problems with Daddy resonated with Wes and Angel.
Good stuff.
8 of 10.
DEAR BOY Original airdate: October 24, 2000. Written and directed
by: David Greenwalt. Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Elisabeth
Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald,
Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Andy Hallet as The Host.
The machinations of Darla and Wolfram and Hart aren't anywhere
near as interesting as Angel's obsession with Darla--and that
girl knows how to push...Every. Damn. Button. "God doesn't
want you--but I do." Yum.
8 out of 10.
GUISE WILL BE GUISE Original airdate: November 7, 2000. Written
by: Jane Espenson. Directed by: Krishna Rao. Guest stars: Brigid
Brannagh as Virginia Bryce, Todd Susman as Magnus Bryce, Art LeFleur
as the guru, Patrick Kilpatrick as Paul Lanier, Andy Hallett as
The Host.
Jane E.! Yay! The Wesley episode I'd been waiting for, but what
surprised me were Angel's scenes with the phony swami, which provided
real psychological insight. I liked Virginia a lot, and was kind
of surprised when she bailed out on Wes. What, Daddy's business
wasn't dangerous?
7 out 10.
DARLA (Crossover with Buffy - "Fool for Love") Original
airdate: November 14, 2000. Written and directed by: Tim Minear.
Guest stars: Julie Benz as Darla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald,
James Marsters as Spike, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Mark Metcalf
as The Master, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners.
The minute the Master walked into Darla's room, Minear had me
by the throat. The flipside of the scene from "Fool for Love"
was executed brilliantly, and Julie Benz officially joined the
Buffy/Angel pantheon of great villains.
9 out of 10.
THE SHROUD OF RAHMON Original airdate: November 21, 2000. Written
by: Jim Kouf. Directed by: David Grossman. Guest stars: Elisabeth
Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Tony Todd as Vyasa, W. Earl Brown as
Menlo, Dwayne L. Barnes as Lester, Tom Kiesche as Det. Broomfield,
R. Emery Bright as Det. Turlock.
A tepid knock off of the Treasure of the Sierra Madre, with Angel
actually impersonating one of those grifters and oddballs you
find in B. Traven's novels and stories. The whole plot point of
Angel biting Kate was never followed up in future episodes, and
the lack of follow-through doesn't reflect too well on this ep.
5.5 out of 10.
THE TRIAL Original airdate: November 28, 2000. Written by: Douglas
Petrie and Tim Minear. Directed by: Bruce Seth Green. Guest stars:
Julie Benz as Darla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Sam Anderson
as Holland Manners, Andy Hallett as The Host, Juliet Landau as
Drusilla, Jim Piddock as the valet.
Absolutely heartbreaking. Drusilla's vamping of Darla was a masterstroke--the
only way they could go if the "Beige" Angel plotline
was going to be convincing.
9 out 10.
REUNION Original airdate: December 19, 2000. Written by: Tim Minear
and Shawn Ryan. Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Julie
Benz as Darla, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Christian Kane as Lindsey
McDonald, Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, Stephanie Romanov as
Lilah Morgan, Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley.
"Please, help us!" "And yet, I just can't seem
to care." "You're all fired." Genius.
10 out of 10.
REDEFINITION Original airdate: January 16, 2001. Written by: Mere
Smith. Directed by: Michael Grossman. Guest stars: Julie Benz
as Darla, Juliet Landau as Drusilla, Christian Kane as Lindsey
McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Andy Hallett as The
Host, Brigid Brannagh as Virginia Bryce.
A frightening ending, in which Angel (NOT Angelus) decides to
inflict pain rather than kill. We revisited this capacity for
darkness in the "good" side of Angel in "Forgiving,"
and I have no doubt we'll see it again as the two sides of his
character begin to merge. Bonus points for the W/G/C drunken karaoke
butchering of "We Are the Champions."
8 out of 10.
BLOOD MONEY Original airdate: January 23, 2001. Written by: Shawn
Ryan and Mere Smith. Directed by: R.D. Price. Guest stars: Christian
Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julia
Lee as Anne, Mark Rolston as Boone, Gerry Becker as Nathan Reed,
Sam Anderson as Holland Manners, Matthew James as Merl.
Brutally cynical, and it left a refreshingly bitter taste in my
mouth. I guess I'm funny that way.
7.5 out of 10.
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY Original airdate: February 6, 2001. Written
by: David Greenwalt. Directed by: Bill Norton. Guest stars: Andy
Hallett as The Host, Matt Champagne as Gene, Brigid Brannagh as
Virginia Bryce, Darby Stanchfield as Denise, Mike Hagerty as the
bartender.
I found the science fiction aspect of the episode rather jarring
and the metaphor a bit strained, but the teaming of Lorne and
Angel was a hell of a lot of fun.
7.5 out 10.
THE THIN DEAD LINE Original airdate: February 13, 2001. Written
by: Jim Kouf and Shawn Ryan. Directed by: Scott McGinnis. Guest
stars: Elisabeth Rohm as Det. Kate Lockley, Julia Lee as Anne,
Mushond Lee as Jackson, Jarrod Crawford as Rondell, Matthew James
as Merl.
I loved this episode. Yes, the metaphor was too "dead on"
(sorry), but the interactions between Gunn and Wes (English soul
brother #1!) and Kate and Angel made it all worthwhile.
8.5 out of 10.
REPRISE Original airdate: February 20, 2001. Written by: Tim Minear.
Directed by: James Whitmore, Jr. Guest stars: Elisabeth Rohm as
Det. Kate Lockley, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie
Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Julie Benz as Darla, Sam Anderson as
Holland Manners, Andy Hallett as The Host, Brigid Brannagh as
Virginia Bryce, Gerry Becker as Nathan Reed, Thomas Kopache as
Denver.
The elevator ride to Hell with Holland Masters is my all-time
favorite scene in BOTH series. The levels of philosophical wisdom
and psychological manipulation could take years to unravel. Ranks
with C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters" as the prime
examples of Evil explaining its role in the Universe. In my mind,
the first episode that ranked with the best of BUFFY, and I would
never miss an episode of ANGEL again.
11 out 10.
EPIPHANY Original airdate: February 27, 2001. Written by: Tim
Minear. Directed by: Thomas J. Wright. Guest stars: Julie Benz
as Darla, Christian Kane as Lindsey McDonald, Elisabeth Rohm as
Det. Kate Lockley, Andy Hallett as The Host.
Can only say "Amen" to you review, TCH.
10 out of 10.
DISHARMONY Original airdate: April 17, 2001. Written by: David
Fury. Directed by: Fred Keller. Guest stars: Mercedes McNab as
Harmony, Pat Healy as Doug Sanders, Andy Hallett as The Host,
Alyson Hannigan as Willow Rosenberg.
Sorry, TCH--I buy Minear's rationale. This episode was freakin'
hilarious, my favorite Harmony ep of all time. Doug Sanders, The
vamp-Amway Salesman, was an idea whose time had come. Then again,
I like David Fury. I loved Go Fish. What do I know?
8 out of 10.
DEAD END Original airdate: April 24, 2001. Written by: David Greenwalt.
Directed by: James A. Contner. Guest stars: Christian Kane as
Lindsey McDonald, Stephanie Romanov as Lilah Morgan, Andy Hallett
as The Host, Gerry Becker as Nathan Reed.
Christian Kane's evil hand speech is a classic, and holy cow,
can that boy sing! Great anti-buddy ep, although Angel's schoolboy
peevishness got on my nerves after a while. Excellent send off
for ex-white trash Lindsay...
7.5 out of 10
BELONGING Original airdate: May 1, 2001. Written by: Shawn Ryan.
Directed by: Turi Meyer. Guest stars: Andy Hallet as The Host,
Brody Hutzler as Landok, Jarrod Crawford as Rondell, Darris Love
as George, Amy Acker as Fred.
OVER THE RAINBOW Original airdate: May 8, 2001. Written by: Mere
Smith. Directed by: Fred Keller. Guest stars: Andy Hallet as The
Host, Amy Acker as Fred, Susan Blommaert as Vakma, Persia White
as Aggie, Daniel Dae Kim as Gavin Park, Michael Phenicie as Silas.
THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS Original airdate: May 15, 2001. Written
and directed by: Tim Minear. Guest stars: Andy Hallet as The Host,
Amy Acker as Fred, Brody Hutzler as Landok, Mark Lutz as the Groosalugg,
Tom McCleister as The Host's mother, Michael Phenicie as Silas.
THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE PLRTZ GLRB Original airdate: May 22, 2001.
Written and directed by: David Greenwalt. Guest stars: Andy Hallet
as The Host, Amy Acker as Fred, Mark Lutz as the Groosalugg, Michael
Phenicie as Silas, Tom McCleister as The Host's mother, Brody
Hutzler as Landok, Lee Reherman as the Captain.
Can't add much to your usual perceptive and intelligent summary,
TCH. Just wanted to reiterate how much I enjoyed the whole trip
down the rabbit hole.
Collective rating: 8 out 10.
On to S3! (If you've got some old baby clothes in the attic, bring
'em out of storage...)
[> Tim Minear's Thoughts
on Pylea (responding to TCH) -- s'kat, 08:54:48 03/05/03
Wed
(First off I agree with most of your thoughts here. I didn't like
Pylea that much upon first watching, liked it better the second
go around. Like you - I tend to be like Rob and Rufus in preferring
Btvs to Ats. But also like you I see Ats as well written and beautifully
layered. It's the characters that make the difference for me in
this case not the writing.
On the rankings? I disagree slightly. My favorites from that season
are Dear Boy, Darla, and Redefinition. I'd give those three episodes
a 10, everything else...between 4-8. I've always found the second
episode of the season to be overrated and somewhat cliche in places,
probably b/c I've seen one too many movies on that topic. ;-))
But enough of my opinions - on to the good stuff:
From the SFX Article Season 2 Angel Overview with Tim Minear:
Season two wraps up with a three-part visit to the Host's dimension,
Pylea, where Cordelia becomes queen; where Angel can live in sunlight
and see his reflection; where they encounter Fred (amy Acker)
for the first time; and where everybody is literally fighting
for their lives. The episodes involved are Over The Rainbow, Through
The Looking Glass and There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb each decidedly
lighter than much of the season.
"We knew we wanted to do Pylea," explains Minear, "
and the question was whether or not we could afford to. It was
incredibly expensive to do. Think of all the demon make-ups, first
of all. Shooting on location; creating a place to shoot it; creating
a castle; all this stuff was expensive. We actually ended up going
to this little Mexican village that's not a real village. It's
sort of a backlot thing out in the boondocks where film companies
shoot sometimes. If you look closely, you may notice that Pylea
is also China from episode seven. It's the exact same village
but redressed. So that was a lot of location shooting and a lot
of day shooting, which we don't normally do."
"I thought it was all great, but fans were divided,"
he notes, "They were saying things like, 'Where's Darla?
Where's the angst? What's going on?' We brought in Darla and instead
of him staking her and saving everybody and they go off for pancakes
and eggs together at the end of the season, Darla was demoralized
and just went away. I think that people weren't sure what to make
of that. It didn't seem like a resolution to them, and in fact
it was not, as they would discover in season 3. What people have
to remember is that the season was about Angel not about Darla.
If you look at Pylea and what we did there, it's sort of a metaphor
writ large for what all our characters have been through this
season."
"Cordelia used to be popular, but then she had her money
and prestige ripped from her. Here she gets to be elevated to
the position of a princess. What does that mean? She's grown beyond
that. Wes of course always wanted to be a leader and always failed
miserably. Then he became a leader and really became a leader.
Gunn ended up leaving his people behind and feeling responsible
for the death of some of them. What he learns in Pylea is if you
try not getting anybody killed, you'll end up getting everybody
killed. So everbody's story is sort of put in that fantasyland.
And of course there's Fred."
Playing up the laughs was something Minear pushed as far as he
could in Through The Looking Glass. "But once it gets really
funny," he smiles, "you can really knock everybody on
their ass. Angel in a foetal position is never a bad thing. It
was so much fun directing this episode. For me, everything was
clicking. David was very funny. His playing the vanity and really
liking everybody calling him ahero and telling the story to the
kids - I thought that was great and I thought his chemistry with
Fred was great. She was adorable. And Charisma was over the top,
Carole Lombard funny. And I loved Wes and Gunn together. I thought
it all worked, which sounds terrible to say from the writer/director."
He describes No Place Like Plrtz Glrb as the "big resolution",
followed by the moment when the gang gets back to the hotel to
find Willow there, waiting to tell Angel that Buffy has died.
"I thought the episode really worked. Andy Hallett was great
as a disembodied head. I think some of the stuff in that episode
was the Wes moments: 'You're not running this, I am.' I just thought
he was cool, grown -up and a badass, which was a nice place to
take that character. And then there was Angel confronting the
physical manifestation of his darker self, which is something
he'll have to deal with again in the future, even if it's not
in a starkly metaphorical way. I think the important point to
take away is that he is embarrassed by the ugly thing he feels
he really is, which is why he doesn't want his friends to see
him that way. I think that had a lot to do with why he fired them."
Oh some interesting side notes:
1. Apparently all their guest star negotiations fell through at
the end of the season. I mean all of them, with the exception
of Andy Hallet who is a personal friend of Joss Whedon. So they
had to come up with an alternative. Whedon suggested the whole
Pylea idea and that they pick up Darla next year - when they could
get Julie Benze again.
(This isn't the first time they've had problems getting Landau
- see Lover's Walk.) And Elizabeth Roem (sp?) who played Kate
went over to Law & ORder.
2. Tim Minear and Whedon were horribly upset with WB this season.
Not only was WB being a pain with renewing of Btvs and syndication
rights, but WB put a picture of the Host's head on a platter on
their site, two weeks prior to the airing of the episode. Their
own network released a major spoiler!! And they have tried hard
to squash them. Informing cast, crew and assorted underlings -
you release spoilers - you are fired. I don't think Minear ever
quite forgave network execs for this.
PS: I deleted all future spoilers from this TCH so it should be
safe. Also dang VOY archived your thread before I could post this.
SK
[> [> Also responding
to TCH-some squickiness-and Pylea -- Arethusa, 09:24:17
03/05/03 Wed
I wouldn't say society is obsessed with pediphilia-it's just starting
to acknowledge it. There's no proof at all Dodgson was
one, but he did lose interest in his little female friends when
they hit puberty, and stopped taking the photographs when mammas
became concerned that he kissed the little girls after photographing
them. One of the detectives investigating Jackson said the boy
in question could describe his genetalia in detail-not a goood
sign.
One of the writers said the Pylean arc was a case of "be
careful what you wish for." Angel got to be a Hero without
any of those tricky moral ambiguities, but couldn't control the
monster. Cordelia became a princess, complete with Prince Charming,
but no longer had control over her fate. Wes finally bacame the
leader, but had to lead people to their deaths.
I'm really enjoying your Odyssey, TCH-too bad it's so much shorter
than the earlier one!
[> [> [> My post is
a response to 'Alice's Age' -- Arethusa, 09:39:08 03/05/03
Wed
Voynok is messing with me-it said the post was archived, so I
put it here. Bad demon.
[> [> [> [> TCH's
thread is back vvvv -- Masq, 09:46:22 03/05/03 Wed
Sorry, it got pushed into the archives by some humungous cancerous
threads that have been irradiated into the archives themselves.
[> [> [> Thanks
-- Tchaikovsky, 04:28:17 03/06/03 Thu
I couldn't do a real Odyssey- I'm definitely not a Hero- so this
three month kind of thing is more my bag. As Masq said, the word
Odyssey seems more and more appropriate to Angel as I go through
the series, as he seems to have taken on the larger-than-life
emotions and drama of a Greek hero.
I just re-read my 'Alice's Age' post, and I think your response
is very tempered. My post comes across as being rather blase about
a difficult issue, and almost ignoring the (unimaginable to me)
pain of the victims. It's just that there's an element of the
British press which has whipped up a big storm of hysteria to
do with the issue- to the point where a paediatrician was mistakenly
attacked. Although I have no certainty on either Dodgson or Jackson,
the Martin Bashir interview took various comments about his making
friends with boys and organising sleepovers, and blew them up
with little evidence. On the evidence presented on camera, it
just appeared that Jackson had the emotional maturity of an 11
year old- going into big toy shops and buying everything because
he can- taking his children to the zoo despite the press interest
in him- and being exceptionally self-conscious. It seemed he needed
counselling rather than being branded so carefully.
That's an interesting point on Pylea. I really do think there
are a lot of things going on under the surface which I haven't
quite grasped yet. Need several more watchings- which is as good
an excuse as any to blow my money on the DVD sometime soon!
TCH
[> [> [> [> TCH,
you won't believe this! -- Arethusa, 07:47:14 03/06/03
Thu
I just opened the daily paper and found out the exhibition titled
Dreaming in Pictures: The photographs of Lewis Carroll
is at the Houston Museum of Fine Arts. What great luck. I saw
some of the photos on the web, but seeing old photos in person
is totally different. There's an oblique reference to the scandelous
aspect of the photos: "We miscontrue these pictures if we
define photography as being about actual things and concrete reality,"
said Douglas Nickel (San Francisco Museum of Art curator).
[> [> [> [> [>
Oooh!! -- Tchaikovsky, 09:36:36 03/06/03 Thu
That sounds very interesting. Do tell us about them when/if you
see them.
TCH
[> ^ vague S3 spoiler above,
TCH - just avoid Redefinition -- Scroll, 09:04:51 03/05/03
Wed
Sorry for jumping on you like that, cjl, but I figure better safe
than sorry : ) And thanks for posting your review of S2. I had
been all set to reply to TCH's Pylea arc thread but it got swallowed
up by voynok.
I too enjoyed the Pylea adventures, though I admit to feeling
some confusion the first time watching. But surrealism kinda grows
on you.
"Belonging" was terrific for showing how life kept undercutting
the gang's confidence and sense of identity. Wes' conversation
with his father is just excellent, and also tells us something
about Watchers in general, I think. I particularly loved Gunn's
story, seeing him standing at a distance, watching his friend's
body being burned. It really brought home how tough those kids'
lives must be, that it's absolutely normal and necessary for them
to perform their own death rituals. No such thing as a shiny oak
casket and a bunch of white-gloved pall-bearers for these kids.
And I think Gunn is paired with fire for (maybe?) the first time.
I've always associated Gunn with fire -- he's pretty hot-headed,
passionate, burning.
I may be the only one, but I like the Groosalug, that big
hunk o' champion. Sure, he was kind of two-dimensional to begin
with, but I think he was starting to mature near the end. There
was an innocence to him that was entirely appealing.
I don't want to get into S3 for fear of spoiling anyone, but I
think Wesley as General is one of the key moments of the Pylea
arc. Especially as to how it affects his relationship with Gunn.
For the first time, Gunn sees the Watcher mentality at work --
and it is the antithesis of Gunn's "leave no man behind"
credo. Must have been particularly hard for Gunn coming so close
on the heel's of Rondell's death.
TCH, if you read this, I really loved your analysis of Cordy and
Fred as Alice. Nice work!
[> [> Completely agree
on power of 'Belonging'- and thanks! -- Tchaikovsky, 04:19:01
03/06/03 Thu
[> Responding to Gyrus:
ANGEL S1 arcs -- cjl, 10:01:11 03/05/03 Wed
Responding to yet ANOTHER archived thread....
After watching almost all of ANGEL S1 on DVD at one sitting a
couple of weeks ago (20 inches of snow outside--what else was
I going to do?), I saw strong character arcs connecting the seemingly
dis-connected episodes of the season, and it all tied together
beautifully in To Shanshu in L.A.
Reconnecting: ANGEL, despite his love for Buffy and his valiant
heroism on BtVS, was always a loner, and Doyle very bluntly told
Angel what might happen if he remained detached from humanity.
Angel's clintele in S1 were people disconnected from their friends
and their families, trying to build a new future in L.A., and
therefore, were easily prey for the things in the night (and their
lawyers). Prime example of this was Cordelia, of course, and we
saw aspects of Cordelia's situation reflected in the women Angel
helped out during the season.
Building a family: By extension, reconnecting with humanity for
Angel means building a new family. He opens the detective agency,
learns to trust Cordelia's judgment and takes on Doyle's mission
with enthusiasm. He almost withdraws again when Doyle makes his
sacrifice in "Hero," but Cordy won't let him go under.
Eventually, with the addition of Wes to the family taking some
of the sting off his grief, he's integrated back into humanity
enough so that the revelation in To Shanshu In L.A. MEANS something
to him.
Unfinished business: This actually applies to ANGEL the series
as a whole (i.e, Darla in S2-3 and The Beast/Angelus in S4), rather
than just season 1, but as a spinoff, the unfinished business
aspect is almost unavoidable. We get Spike, Oz, Faith, the Watchers
Council (Wes' unfinished business), Doyle's ex, Cordelia's post-Sunnydale
malaise in "Rm w/a Vu," and--naturally--the Buffster
herself, who just won't go away and won't stay dead!
Plenty of thematic goodness. If they'd stuck with the anthology
format, I wouldn't have been too disappointed.
[> [> Good points...Definition
of 'anthology series'? -- Gyrus, 11:22:09 03/05/03 Wed
When you put it that way, yes, there certainly are character-development
arcs for everyone in S1. What I really meant was that there isn't
a long-term plotline -- it's all just MoW until "Blind Date"
or thereabouts.
Regarding the definition of an "anthology series": I
had thought that an anthology series is one that has both different
plots AND different main characters every week, like THE TWILIGHT
ZONE or THE OUTER LIMITS. Am I wrong?
(When I read the bit about ANGEL having been originally intended
as an anthology series, I assumed this meant that Angel would
be a sort of host or commentator, ala Rod Serling, but would not
be directly involved in the stories themselves.)
[> [> [> Actually,
I think your definition of 'anthology series' is the right one...
-- cjl, 12:23:45 03/05/03 Wed
But over the years, I think it has come to include series like
"The Fugitive," where the main character(s) encounter
different situations each week, with an entirely new set of co-stars.
Star Trek, ST:TNG and Voyager were anthology series (for the most
part), going to new planets each week, meeting all sorts of strange
and interesting creatures with strikingly similar latex makeup.
DS9 wasn't: it stuck around the space station, and seasons 4-7
were almost entirely taken up with the Dominion War. The X-Files
managed to combine the two formats, going into "mythology"
mode for huge stretches, then reverting to one-shots when Carter
and his crew needed a breather....
[> [> Nice summation
of the themes of Season 1 (spoilers for all seasons) -- Masq,
11:38:55 03/05/03 Wed
That tie nicely into the Family theme of the other seasons
Seasons 1-4: The AI gang is a family of loners coming together
in LA. (this is true of all the characters except perhaps Gunn,
who had the struggle of giving up his old "family" to
join AI).
Angel, then Doyle, then Cordelia, then Wesley, then Gunn, then
Fred, then Connor join the family.
But the AI family has their share of trouble and break-ups, Angel
in S. 2, Wesley in S. 3&4.
Season 2: Angel's struggle to make peace with his old family,
represented by Darla and then Drusilla. Try as he might, he's
still at loose ends with Darla at the end of Season 2.
Season 3: Angel finally makes peace with Darla, and welcomes a
new member into his family, a real son, Connor. But of course,
his past as Angelus comes back to haunt him in the form of Holtz,
a second father to Connor. He takes away Angel's child, Connor's
childhood, and Connor's loyalty to Angel.
Season 4: Wesley and Connor coming back into the family, but their
loyalty is shaky. Cordelia's presumed loyalty to the family is
a hanging question. Whether or not the come together as a family
as in Angel's underwater fantasy is the open question of Season
4.
Oh, I didn't mean to go on like this. I just really resonate with
the way the Family theme works on Angel.
[> [> [> Re: Nice
summation of the themes of Season 1 (spoilers for all seasons)
-- aliera, 12:04:09 03/05/03 Wed
Me too...especially Connor ;-)
[> [> [> [> Cool,
another Connor fan! -- Masq, 12:32:46 03/05/03 Wed
I'm not sure why I find him especially compelling. It's a combination
of vulnerability and toughness, anger and eagerness, identity
confusion that needs Angel colliding with moral confusion that
rejects Angel.
He's damn annoying sometimes, and yet I can't help but like him.
I'm kind of curious what Ben thinks of him.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Cool, another Connor fan! -- Arethusa, 16:01:49
03/05/03 Wed
I like watching the tug of war going on inside him every time
he's around Angel and AI. He wants so much to be accepted and
part of a family, yet they are everything he's been taught to
hate. And he has a wicked tongue-like when he told Angel that
Cordy looked good on him too.
Aree, killing time until AtS in on. (Umph! Just stabbed a clock.)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Connor and Calvary (spoilers to AtS 4.12) -- Ixchel,
17:26:36 03/05/03 Wed
Something that has bothered me about Calvary is that Connor seems
so _eager_ to kill Angelus. Then I realized, if Connor tells himself
that Angel isn't "real" is an "illusion" (something
Angelus "wears") then he can kill him and not be restrained
by his love for that "illusion". To him (subconsciously)
he will be free of the feelings that tear him in two. IMHO any
love he has felt for Angel must be marred with a feeling of betraying
Holtz. Now, with Angelus, Connor is presented with an opportunity
to take Holtz' vengeance for him and not suffer guilt at killing
a father who obviously loves him. Of course he surely would feel
guilt, but I doubt he knows that.
Hope that makes sense.
Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> You make perfect sense, and I agree. Poor little
tortured dhampir. ;) -- Arethusa, 17:34:18 03/05/03 Wed
Incidently, I read that the legand of dhampirs arose when women
mysteriously turned up pregnant after their husbands died. Supposedly,
their husbands came back as vampires and impregnated them. Veeery
convenient.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Thanks, Arethusa. Yes, always be wary of
the overly convenient. ;) -- Ixchel, 22:12:25 03/05/03
Wed
[> Good picks -- Tchaikovsky,
04:10:24 03/06/03 Thu
Some of those scenes you mentioned I had temporarily forgotten,
and made me want to rush home and watch again. Unfortunately,
I'm cutting back after the spree on Buffy DVD's I had last year,
but some day my restraint will break and I'll go out and buy Angel
Season Two. It is a great Season. I think AYNOHYEB and 'The Trial'
were the two episodes which finally convinced me that the show
was on a par quality-wise with Buffy, and convinced me that virtually
nothing could make me lose interest. But the 'Reprise'/'Epiphany'
double was my high point of the Season.
And there definitely are some good points to 'Disharmony' as I
mentioned in my review. It's just that I was both personally irked
by it, and it seemed to fit in uncomfortably with the episodes
around it, and therefore I will not be watching it again any time
soon. Don't get your last line- but I probably don't want to.
TCH
[> Response to lunasea from
origial Odyssey thread -- Tchaikovsky, 05:04:39 03/06/03
Thu
Good post again.
One little chain that needs clarifying:
I wrote:
"But, as you state, it is a necessary endowment from the
Powers That Be in order that he can be their Champion for a while."
The you responded:
But it isn't. They aren't using him for his physical prowess.
If that was the case, why aren't they bugging Spike or better
yet Groo? They are using his physical prowess to make him what
they need. Your comments about Groo were very good. What is key
to that character is why he isn't Angel. What Angel has that he
doesn't is what makes the PTB need Angel.
Well, yes, you're right. Angel is chosen because he is able to
fight for good in a way that Groo isn't. But it is still
necessary that he has his physical powers. Not because that's
why (the only reason) he is chosen by the PtB, but because
he is a more effective Champion as a result of it.
A couple more thoughts:
You wrote:
Masq writes in her analysis of IWRY that if it was a test,
Angel passed it. I would say he failed it. He wasn't able to see
what he could give Buffy (or the world) as a human. Buffy's death
wish kicked in a year later. If Angel was in her life, it probably
wouldn't have. He isn't a a lower being because he was willing
to give up everything, but he isn't quite what he will become
either.
I'm not sure about this. I don't like 'I Will Remember You', partly
for stylistic and directorial reasons, and partly because I do
not believe personally that at this stage of Angel's mission to
'help the helpless', he would not willingly become human given
the opportunity. I can understand the writers' idea behind it:
that he is not able to cope with being weak and needing to be
saved by Buffy, but I just can't believe that he would spoil the,
(excessively silly but obviously blissful) happiness he felt on
that day by re-engaging in his mission. Many disagree with me,
and I respect their opinions. However, in the sense of the plot
being that the Powers That Be wanted to test Angel's loyalty to
his new role- the path they had laid out for him to becoming a
Champion or even a human Hero despite all reason to choose another
path- Angel passed the test. I don't think that there is any canonical
evidence that there is a test going on in the episode in the other
direction- that Angel ought to have been able to sacrifice his
powers in order to help Buffy out- to become the human link that
she needs to the world. That would contradict Angel's mini-epiphany,
which chimes with the end of 'In the Dark' and 'Epiphany' itself,
where he realises that his mission is just to help as well as
he can- for the good of LA as much as for the good of himself.
Angel's decision seems like an untidy thorn in the thematic and
moral structure of the series, if you take your interpretation.
Finally, your explanation of Season Two as a whole- as Angel's
desire to defeat evil being transcended in order that he actually
might do it, is very insightful. It is telling though that his
victory in Pylea is not over corporeal or even political evil,
(Wesley/Gunn help change the hierarchy of the society, and he
never [needs to] defeat Groo), but instead a triumph over the
evil inside himself. This resonates exactly with what Holland
told Angel in that scene in 'Epiphany'. Evil is inside people,
not in some Other place or hell dimension.
TCH
[> [> Re: Response to
lunasea from origial Odyssey thread -- lunasea, 07:14:23
03/06/03 Thu
Thank you again for the compliments. My biggest strength is that
I am good at seeing the overall picture of something. Then I can
go back and see how individual things fit into that. I am trying
not to discuss S2 in context of S3 and 4 for this thread or even
in relation to BtVS that much. They may be different genres (AtS
is more action-adventure and BtVS is more of a drama), but they
really do have the same overall theme which is what Joss constructs
the Buffyverse from.
IWRY is my favorite episode out of both shows. I did like it for
stylistic reasons. I don't think that Angel gave up being human
because he couldn't handle being weak or needing to be saved by
Buffy. How many times has she bailed him out of trouble or nursed
him back to health? In the next episode, "Hero," he
tells Doyle why he did it, "Buffy and I were together until
- we realized it couldn't be. - We don't belong to ourselves.
We belong to the world, fighting."
That sentiment reminded me of Spike's "love's bitch."
Spike doesn't belong to himself, but to love. Angel and Buffy
don't belong to themselves, they belong to the world. In an incredibly
selfish world, these sentiments on the surface look beautiful.
All three of them are willing to put their own desires aside for
something greater. It reminds me of an O Henry story.
The oracles said that Angel was a higher being because he was
willing to put everything aside for another. The key is the word
"willing." Buffy and Angel are so ready to sacrifice
everything, that they do so without finding alternatives. Their
own desires don't factor into their decisions at all.
Buffy had to actually think about whether to attempt to recurse
Angel. She was ready to logic herself out of it and do the hardest
thing, because she was the only one that wanted Angel back. What
changed her mind when she looked at the ring? Was it how much
she loved him or how he felt about her? Was she getting her boyfriend
back as Xander accussed her of or saving Angel? I would go with
the later. The ring was how he felt about her. Love, friendship
and loyalty. She couldn't base her decision on her desire, but
she could show those thing to Angel by saving him. She could acknowledge
his feelings.
This season in "Selfless" she was ready to kill her
friend rather than find an alternative. (Interesting in both those
instances, it is Willow that finds the alternative).
Angel is the same way. He will gladly put lots of pain on himself
if he thinks it helps others. We could find lots of examples of
this.
In IWRY they both get taken out of the equation, because they
are both champions with a mission. They no longer belong to themselves,
but to the world. They couldn't be together if it cost anyones
their lives. Before Angel could make decisions, such as leaving
Sunnydale, based on Buffy. Buffy could make decisions, such as
the resouling or killing Faith, based on Angel.
This cuts them off from the world. They are Champions of the People.
They are both people and should factor into their decisions. They
shouldn't base their decisions solely on themselves, but a balance
should be reached. They do this when it comes to their friends.
How many people died in "Graduation Day" that would
have been saved if Buffy could have sacrificed Willow in "Choices?"
The biggest example of this on AtS is what Angel was willing to
do to get Connor back. They will go to the ends of the earth for
their friends, but not for themselves.
This sets up a superiority complex. When they take themselves
out of their decisions, they take themselves out of humanity.
They protect humans. They are above them. Buffy is the Law and
Angel is the Champion. That can all be traced back to the idea
that they don't belong to themselves.
Not even sure where I was going with that any more. I tend to
do that. Angel says in "Epiphany" that he doesn't get
everything yet. If we take his epiphanies as complete, then we
don't leave any place for him to grow. IWRY showed both how amazing
Angel was and what his problem was. Nothing in the Buffyverse
is a complete triumph.
[> [> [> 'Nothing
in the Buffyverse is a complete triumph' -- Tchaikovsky, 11:05:10
03/06/03 Thu
And no-one in the Buffyverse is perfect. Angel isnot a perfect
Champion, Buffy not a perfect Hero. Angel had had one love in
243 years, and tried to make it work for a whole year, (Season
Three), after it was clear that it should have been doomed. Then,
after a couple of admittedly fruitful missions in LA, he is granted
the ability to be exactly the kind of lover that he always wanted
to be to Buffy. To grow old gracefully, rather than see her rot
like the Mayor's wife. Given this, I don't see his decision as
likely. Angel is not perfect, and and his calling is not for his
own redemption. There is an act of incredible self-sacrifice going
on in 'I Will Remember You', but he also sacrifices Buffy's hopes.
Ultimately, it is his decision- his life. But a decision to be
human would not have been a passing of the Powers test, if a test
it was. They want him as their Champion. Going back to live with
Buffy would have been a selfish act in some ways, but Angel is
not above making those.
You write:
Angel is the same way. He will gladly put lots of pain on himself
if he thinks it helps others. We could find lots of examples of
this.
Sometimes, yes. But not always. Because Angel, although not human
is a human character. He tries to make the relationship with Buffy
work in Season Three when it would have been wiser and less selfish
to walk away. He, despite being forced, drinks from Buffy in 'Graduation
Day'. These aren't wrong things to do, but it shows he is not
always the one to bear the brunt of the pain. Sometimes he will
displace the pain. Angel is not a perfect character, and so his
realisations of how to live are small and sometimes temporary.
Hence I come back to your ultimate message: "Nothing in the
Buffyvese is a complete triumph", but having taken a completely
different journey throughout.
It's like that puzzle where you see two faces in profile or a
candlestick. Different perspectives. Mine is that 'I Will Remember
You' is not feasible. Yours is that it is. We have nothing to
tell us which is right, because both are in a bizarrely subjective
universe. That's the wonderful thing about the shows though. We're
not given the answers, we're asked the questions.
TCH
'I'm a dope'
- my slow-witted realization from Selfless rerun -- dream,
12:13:24 03/05/03 Wed
So, how did I managed to miss that Anya's "lame-ass, made-up
maiden name" was ***CHRISTINA EMMANUELLA*** Jenkins? Sometimes
I need to be hit over the head.
God, I'm bored at work today. Ever have a job where the most important
thing you do is show up? I still have 1.75 hours left....
[> But I'm dopier. --
Arethusa, 12:45:49 03/05/03 Wed
I hate to admit it, but I don't get the significance. Could you
explain? (blush)
However I did find the lyrics to Anya's song at Hellmouth Central:
Selfless
"Mrs." (Vocals by Emma Caulfield, Lyrics by Joss Whedon)
Mr. Xander Harris
That's what he is to the world outside
That's the name he carries with pride
I'm just lately Anya
Not very much to the world, I know
All these years with nothing to show
I've boned a troll, I've wreaked some wrath,
But on the whole, I've had no path
I like to bowl, I'm good with math,
But who am I?
Now I reply
that
I'm the Mrs.
I will be his Mrs.
Mrs. Anya Christina Emmanuella Jenkins Harris
What's the point of loving
I mean except for the sweaty part
What's the point of losing your heart?
Maybe if you're lucky
Being a pair makes you twice as tall
Maybe you're not losing at all
No need to cover up my heart
Plus see above re: sweaty part
So maybe love is pretty smart
And so am I
I found my guy
And I'll be Mrs.
I will be his Mrs.
Mrs. Anya lame-ass-made-up-maiden-name Harris
We'll never part
Not if we can
And if we start
Then here's my plan
I'll show him what bliss is
Welcome him with kisses
'Cause this is a Mrs. who misses her man
He's my Xander and he's awfully swell
It makes financial sense as well
Although he can be
I'll never tell
Just stand aside
Here comes the bride
I'll be Mrs.
I will be his Mrs.
I will be...
[> [> Re: But I'm dopier.
-- dream, 13:04:48 03/05/03 Wed
Her names are two female variants on names of Christ:
Christ - ina
Emmanuel - la
Anya is willing to give her life for the frat boys at the end,
so I'm pretty sure the symbolism is deliberate.
Can I just say that Selfless is one of the best episodes ever?
Not that it needs to be said again, but it does stand up to repeated
viewing...
[> [> [> I agree with
your last paragraph! (slight Selfless spoiler) -- WickedBuffy,
13:14:59 03/05/03 Wed
... and after seeing it again last night I'm even more certain
that Willow has severe performance anxiety regarding magic. She
showed tremendous power when she zapped that thing out the window!
It's when she's under pressure she seems to fold.
PS I didn't realize what that middle name meant either, thanks
for it being asked and answred!
[> [> [> The symbolism
is a little older -- Rook, 16:21:38 03/05/03 Wed
The name actually first came up way back in "Checkpoint"
- So if the symbolism's supposed to be there, it's definitely
older than Selfless:
From Checkpoint:
Anya: Anya Christina Emanuella Jenkins, twenty years old. Born
on the fourth of July, and don't think there weren't jokes about
that my whole life, mister, 'cause there were. "Who's our
little patriot?" they'd say, when I was younger, and therefore
smaller and shorter than I
am now.
BTVS scenes
I DON'T want to see in the ending episodes (possible really VAGUE
spoilers) -- WickedWondering ::I will shriek::, 12:34:43
03/05/03 Wed
Dawn seducing Andrew.
Buffy giving another "You All Suck" speech wearing army
fatigues and smoking a cigar.
Any of the Scoobies suddenly being revealed as The First. (Not
because FE is suddenly there, but because it means that person
is dead.) sidenote: I will throw something at the tv.
Buffy waking up and trying to decide what to wear for her second
day as a freshman at Sunnydale High.
Xander waking up and realizing that if he had really known CPR,
Buffy wouldn't have drowned the day before.
Willow waking up and realizing she'd overslept, missing her first
Wicca Meeting. Decides she doesn't want to go to them anyway.
Anybody waking up and realizing it was all a dream/nightmare.
Any squickiness concerning Giles.
Anya throwing her own body in front of Xanders to save him from
an oncoming . And dying in his arms.
Wood making Spike hand over the leather coat and saying "we're
even".
The hallways of the highschool littered with broken SIT bodies.
Kennedy getting killed. sidenote: I will throw two somethings
at the tv.
Spike throwing himself on the just-opening seal as a soul sacrifice
to reseal it.
Buffy joining him.
Dawn walking off into the sunset of a post-apocalypse world with
Buffy & Spikes ashes stowed in a small jar tied around her waist.
[> A few more -- Gyrus,
12:53:48 03/05/03 Wed
Anybody saying "I will love you forever" to anybody
else.
Buffy snapping out of her catatonia in the mental hospital.
Wood dying to save Spike or vice versa.
Joyce leading Buffy up the stairway to Heaven.
Andrew saving the day by summoning flying monkeys.
[> [> Hey! What's wrong
with flying monkeys? -- ponygoyle (whose cousin is a flying
monkey), 13:04:08 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> [> Do you WANT
to hear Andrew use the phrase 'My little pretties'? -- Gyrus,
13:39:36 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> Oh
yeah! -- pellenaka (big Andrew fan), 13:51:49 03/05/03
Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Hmm, would the flying monkeys wear white hats or black hats?
-- WickedBuffy (and do they know Willows monkey pal?), 14:07:10
03/05/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> They would wear Golden Caps, and little monkeypants.
-- Arethusa, 14:14:00 03/05/03 Wed
Angel's flying monkeys would wear a little fez, like Willow's
pal.
[> [> I Agree With All
of These, Except... -- Rhys, 04:03:42 03/06/03 Thu
Kennedy dying. I hate hate hate hate hate Kennedy. If she does
NOT die, I will throw three somethings at the TV.
All the rest I agree with, though.
[> [> [> Then start
stockpiling, because-- -- HonorH, 10:08:21 03/06/03 Thu
They simply cannot kill another Willow girlfriend (unless they
kill Willow as well, but hey, more lesbians dying would only incense
the fans even more). Kennedy *will* live, so I'd advise you to
get used to her. That or surround yourself with stuffed animals
when you watch the finale so you don't inadvertantly murder your
TV.
[> So we DO want Joss to
work stylish flying monkeys into the finale? -- WickedSimian,
16:19:28 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> Yes, if Honorificus
will pick out their wardrobe. -- Arethusa, 17:29:28 03/05/03
Wed
[> Reactions to your scenes-you-don't-wanna-see:
-- HonorH, 23:08:33 03/05/03 Wed
Dawn seducing Andrew.
No offense to Tom Lenk (who's adorable in a hobbity way), but
bleah! Take a lesson from Cordy, Dawnie: don't do anything (or
anybody) you'll regret if the world doesn't end.
Buffy giving another "You All Suck" speech wearing
army fatigues and smoking a cigar.
Buffy Castro? Buffy Patton?
Any of the Scoobies suddenly being revealed as The First. (Not
because FE is suddenly there, but because it means that person
is dead.) sidenote: I will throw something at the tv.
No. No dying, please. We doesn't likes the dying, no, we doesn't,
Precious!
Anybody waking up and realizing it was all a dream/nightmare.
Gads, that would suck! I'd feel so cheated I'd heave my TV out
the window (which wouldn't do too much, seeing as I'm on a ground
floor, but the sentiment would be there).
Any squickiness concerning Giles.
Giles and squick don't go together. Keep the squick away from
the Giles.
Anya throwing her own body in front of Xanders to save him
from an oncoming . And dying in his arms.
Or, may I add, vice-versa.
Wood making Spike hand over the leather coat and saying "we're
even".
Actually, this has possibilities, depending on the lead-up to
said scene. I do think Spike needs to give up the coat, but I'm
hoping Faith ends up with it.
The hallways of the highschool littered with broken SIT bodies.
Great. Now you've got Honorificus drooling.
Kennedy getting killed. sidenote: I will throw two somethings
at the tv.
Not a chance, my lamb. After all the flak Joss & Co. caught for
killing off Tara, they can't kill off another lesbian *or* another
WillowLover. This puts Kennedy in the well-nigh unprecedented
position of actually improving her odds of survival by getting
involved with a major character.
Spike throwing himself on the just-opening seal as a soul sacrifice
to reseal it.
Again, has possibilities, depending on the lead-up. I'd accept
a Spikean Sacrificial Redemption (or Redemptive Sacrifice) as
long as it makes sense within the context of the show and isn't
hokey.
Buffy joining him.
No. We don't want that. I want Buffy to live, and to live as a
normal person--not as the Slayer. She's earned that much.
Dawn walking off into the sunset of a post-apocalypse world
with Buffy & Spikes ashes stowed in a small jar tied around her
waist.
As much as I don't want that either, kewl image!
And no flying monkeys, either. Honorificus says they simply cannot
be made fashionable, no matter what you dress them in.
[> [> What if the flying
monkeys wear togas? -- lunasea, 07:22:09 03/06/03 Thu
[> [> [> Wouldn't
work. Believe me, I know. -- Honorificus (Sartorially Splendid),
11:07:25 03/06/03 Thu
I've tried everything for the little losers, and none of it looks
even remotely convincing. I even tried little Quidditch robes,
and they still looked silly (besides which, the capes got tangled
in their wings). Finally had to give up on them as minions. Anything
you can't dress up or at least shove into monk's robes is pretty
damned useless in my estimation.
[> Re: BTVS scenes I DON'T
want to see in the ending episodes (possible really VAGUE spoilers)
-- drew the de lurker, 23:14:26 03/05/03 Wed
How about this scene?
"Yes, Willow, I was the first all along." Kennedy whispers
in the dying Willows ear. "Quite the evil lesbian stereotype,
am I not?"
[> Or how 'bout these
-- Tyreseus, 02:57:22 03/06/03 Thu
Drew Goddard appears as the physical manifestation of the first
to kill off all the following characters: Clem, Amy Madison, Oz,
Kit and Carlos, Riley and Mrs. Riley, Ethan Rayne and Harmony.
The scoobies return home after defeating The First to find that
their little sister, Mary Sue (the *new* Vampire Slayer - fashioned
from the blue glowy energy that *is* the slayer essence by mysterious
British monks) has ordered pizza and ransacked Dawn's closet against
direct orders.
Buffy dies. Spike and Angel hug in their shared grief.
The First is easily dispatched in episode 20 (not actually "the
first" but just an annoying poltergeist of sorts). In 21-22,
we discover that Xander Harris is the human incarnation of Satan
and has been manipulating the Scobbies all along. Willow saves
him with a touching speech.
They blow up Sunnydale High to stop The First.
Freddie Prinze, Jr. appears in the curtain call "goodbye"
broadcast in the half-hour following the finale.
[> [> You forgot the
biggest one -- KdS, 04:43:14 03/06/03 Thu
Angel gets shanshued in LA, appears in Sunnydale in the last five
minutes of 7:22, and he and Buffy instantly fall into each others
arms and race off to the registry office. Not trying to upset
B/A shippers - I'd have no problem if it was implied that they
would end up together, but they need to reassess their relationship
in the light of all the development they've gone through in the
last four seasons.
[> [> [> Or worse...
-- KdS, 04:47:21 03/06/03 Thu
Angel shanshues in LA, turns up in Sunnydale in the last five
minutes of 7:22 and finds everyone weeping over Buffy's corpse...
;-)
[> [> Love this one...
-- Tchaikovsky, 05:45:13 03/06/03 Thu
The First is easily dispatched in episode 20 (not actually
"the first" but just an annoying poltergeist of sorts).
In 21-22, we discover that Xander Harris is the human incarnation
of Satan and has been manipulating the Scobbies all along. Willow
saves him with a touching speech.
Now that would be a mislead...
TCH
[> Re: BTVS scenes I DON'T
want to see in the ending episodes (possible really VAGUE spoilers)
-- Rahael, 04:28:50 03/06/03 Thu
Dawn walking off into the sunset of a post-apocalypse world
with Buffy & Spikes ashes stowed in a small jar tied around her
waist.
LOLOL.
[> [> Wicked... --
KdS, 04:46:02 03/06/03 Thu
Is this a specific film or TV reference? I have an inchoate memory
floating round my head, and it's really annoying?
[> [> [> Re: Wicked...
-- Rahael, 04:51:11 03/06/03 Thu
I don't actually know!! It does have the ring of a bathetic cliche
though....
Maybe WickedBuffy could help us out.
[> [> [> [> bathetic
! inchoate! why I just might NOT tell you now because ....
-- WickedBuffy (XtWP finale spoiler), 07:38:40 03/06/03 Thu
.... I have to go look those words up.
::bracing myself against your combined semantic super powers::
::surrendering::
okok - I don't choaties crawling around in KdS's head or Rahael
to have to clean that ring around her bathetic tub.
Gabrielle did that with Xena's ashes in the finale of "Xena,
Warrior Princess".
(Which I never actually saw. I boycotted the final episode when
I heard Xena would die.)
Still, it's a nice visual as a stand-alone scene, don't you think?
:>
[> [> [> [> [>
Mr and Mrs Big piles of dust... -- Rahael, 07:51:21
03/06/03 Thu
That's what I was thinking!
Does this mean I'm in trouble with Xena fans?? Whoops!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Don't tell Rob your name Rah... -- TCH, looking around
furtively, 09:40:10 03/06/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Rob's a pussycat -- Rahael, 09:48:57 03/06/03
Thu
It's Cleanthes I'm hiding from ;)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Meow. ;o) -- Rob, 11:17:36 03/06/03
Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
Hee -- KdS, 08:16:24 03/06/03 Thu
Don't mean to be intimidating - the demonic place we both spent
years of our lives taints us ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> LOLOL -- Rahael, 08:43:49 03/06/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
Hee -- KdS, 08:18:02 03/06/03 Thu
Don't mean to be intimidating - the demonic place we both spent
years of our lives taints us ;-)
[> wow I posted something
that sired sires on the Boards! ::sobbing joyfully:: :>
-- WickedSireatoress (An y'all made it even funnier! !) :>,
07:49:20 03/06/03 Thu
[> One more... -- ponygirl,
08:13:56 03/06/03 Thu
The spin-off is announced in the final scene as:
The Adventures of Riley & Sam
oh I'm in a baaad mood today but this thread made me smile. Thanks
WickedBuffy for starting it!
[> Gotta add -- xanthe,
09:18:46 03/06/03 Thu
One thing that I really would not like to see happen is for Dawn
to die. I would be really upset if any of the characters were
killed, but some reason the idea that the youngest of the group
who has so much life ahead of her won't survive makes me deeply
sad. (Sure, if that life is lived on a Joss-controlled show it
will probably be filled with pain and angst and poor romantic
decisions, but if everybody else got that opportunity so should
she.) I know Dawn's only about five years younger, but over the
seasons our gang has lived a lot and would be a great sorrow to
spare Dawn from any of the triumph and heartbreak of growing up.
JM in Seattle
(thread eaten by archive already) -- Cheryl, 13:13:50 03/05/03
Wed
Gee, I start replying to WickedBuffy's request for a report on
JM's Seattle appearance, do a conference call, and return to find
the thread archived already. Sheesh!
Anyway . . .
I heard that JM said at the Seattle Con - there was supposed
to be a Spike/Faith spin-off, but ED's decision to do the Noyce
pilot for Fox instead screwed that up. He said that while Whedon
promised he'd be in ANY spin-off they decided to do, he felt it
was unlikely they'd do one for another year or so now. His guess
was they were going to take 6 months to year off and do movies.
Apparently the interesting idea they'd had was Faith. Bummer.
My two favorite actors from the series in a spin-off together
would have been cool. oh well, c'est la vie...
Yep, that's what he said. A Faith-Spike spinoff would have been
good - lots of sparks. My concern now is that if they take a year
off before doing a new show, people will already have other commitments.
Since JM wants to do theater (he mentioned England, NY, Chicago,
& Seattle for where he'd like to work), things might not work
out, timing-wise.
Okay, so what else did he say? He hurt his knee playing Spy Kids
2 with a little relative (didn't say if it was cousin, nephew,
etc.) in Modesto. Fell off the fence. Didn't do serious damage
but was wearing a brace and was supposed to give it a rest, since
he had a 16 hour shoot Monday with fight scenes. So, of course,
he didn't sit at all during the hourlong Q&A session even though
they had a chair up there for him.
Already mentioned only 3 more episodes to shoot. :-(
Sang a little of Rest in Peace. Did a little Macbeth. Nice.
Said that when he got the script for Fool for Love he was - I
don't remember what he said exactly, but that he was kind of concerned
because playing William hit a little too close to home. When he
was growing up he was picked on a lot because of his size and
he wasn't a fighter. He didn't have a father figure and his mom
told him not to fight. So it was difficult for him to play William
like that.
He loves the fight scenes and stunt people are some of his favorite
people. He gets a lot of his aggression out doing the fight scenes,
and admitted to having anger issues, but not so much the last
couple of years. He was actually a lot more open about some pretty
personal things than I would have expected from a celebrity.
Not dating anyone now - took 6 months off because he realized
he was dating the same woman over and over again (different women,
all wrong was my take on that) and wanted to figure out why that
was. But he's ready to date again.
He was extremely gracious and warm. Seemed very happy. Loved his
smile and laugh. Shook everyone's hand in the autograph line (3
hours of autographing I was told later) and looked everyone in
the eye. Making personal contact seemed important to him. He was
pretty animated when he signed my OMWF scriptbook (got it on video
too! ) Made a point of saying he tries not to let all this
adulation go to his head. Cleans his own toilet. ;-)
Someone asked what Spike would read and what he reads. He said
Spike would like porn and someone shouted out that Spike has a
soul now and JM said, "Well, I have a soul . . ." Got
a good laugh. He really was a lot of fun to listen to and watch.
Also, just want to say that Andy Hallett (Lorne) and James Leary
(Clem) were there, too. Leary is very funny and kind of raunchy.
Reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld in looks and mannerisms. Andy seemed
on the shy side and very sweet. Younger than I expected. They
were on stage together and were very entertaining.
All in all, a very fun and entertaining weekend. Anyone interested
in the Star Trek side of the con, just let me know.
[> Thanks for taking the
time. Interesting read. -- sk, 14:04:58 03/05/03 Wed
[> "Well, I have a
soul . . .' What a great response. -- Doug, 14:13:28 03/05/03
Wed
[> Thank you very much,
Cheryl! I love little bits like that. :> -- WickedBuffy
::I know how that archived feeling feels::, 14:18:02 03/05/03
Wed
[> WW: Clem sighting in
Cheryl's post! -- Vickie, 16:12:52 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> Thanks Vickie!
Good pics ;o) -- dub, 16:49:08 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> [> Or, not so
much... -- dub, 19:11:05 03/05/03 Wed
Okay, the "good pics" were at a site linked from the
Trollop board, pictures of James Leary and other Buffy and Angel
cast at the recent PBP...which I looked at just before I read
the mention of Clem above...and well, y'know...it's a thing.
;o)
[> [> [> [> Yeah,
I was wondering what you meant -- Cheryl, 20:06:29 03/05/03
Wed
Since I haven't even gotten my pictures developed yet!
What is the
First (mulitple parts) -- lunasea, 13:22:13 03/05/03 Wed
Here is my take on what the First is and what it is after (and
how Willow, Buffy, Dawn, Angel, Spike and Andrew figure into this).
In the beginning there was only vidya. This means intelligence
in Sanskrit. It is a primordial intelligence connected with space
and oneness. The way it was explained to me is it is like a spacious
hall where there is room to dance about, where there is no danger
or knocking things over or tripping over things, for it is completely
open space. We ARE this space, we are one with it.
But then we get confused, ignorance sets in and we think we are
seperated from vidya. This starts the chain reaction that
leads to suffering and conflict (demons in the Buffyverse). How
did this happen? We became too active in that space. Because it
is so spacious, we started to dance about. As our dance becomes
active, we become self-conscious. "I" am dancing in
this space.
The space is no longer a space. It becomes solid. It is tangible.
We now have the first duality, "I" and space. We have
seperated ourselves from vidya. We become overwhelmed by
this idea and lost in it. We black out and when we awaken we can't
see vidya any more. We just see space and us. We have .
Avidya isn't real, even though we think it is. We have
negated vidya in our minds, but reality is that there is
still vidya.
This avidya is the First. Notice it doesn't have form.
It is still actually vidya. Its power exists only in the
perceptions of others. It can only project the form of the dead.
Ignorance is the beginning of dependent arising (which is more
a wheel than a chain) and death is the end. It causes the things
in the middle, but It cannot be them. It is still part of vidya.
It cannot take form, only that which returns form to vidya.
The dead are part of vidya again, but when we see them
as separate, we see them as avidya. It isn't the dead that
the First is, just our perception that there are dead.
It is the SOURCE of evil, not evil itself. If you look at it as
the ultimate evil, Uber-evil, you will miss it. "Beyond sin
(evil), beyond death (form)." It "generates every being,
every thought." Perception of everything comes from avidya,
including the mortal coil.Avidya is a negation of vidya.
It is the return to vidya that First is fighting. What
in the Buffyverse would do this? Love and magic.
[> Magic and Willow (spoiler
CwDP) -- lunasea, 13:27:56 03/05/03 Wed
Willow tells Giles in "Lessons" "It's all connected.
The root systems, the molecules, the energy...everything's connected."
Giles response was "Then why aren't you at your lesson?"
Typical Joss doublespeak. The audience thinks he means why she
isn't in class, but that isn't what he was saying. She gave Giles
what Mrs. Harkness taught her and says "She's taught me a
lot." That is when Giles asks her why she isn't in her lesson.
What Giles is really saying is if Mrs. Harkness taught her so
much, why wasn't Willow in that lesson she just said. It should
be "It's all connected. The root systems, the molecules,
the energy...ME everything's connected." That is vidya.
That is the true essence of magic that Giles dosed her with last
season.
Willow understands that things are connected. That is where dark
magic comes from. She can manipulate things through this connection.
Thing is, the true essence includes everything, not just what
you want to control. Tara was very reluctant to do any magic,
let alone anything remotely powerful, because of those connections.
Things cause ripples because of this connection. Willow didn't
understand this. She could manipulate the connections, but she
saw herself and her loved ones as seperate to what was being controlled.
This isn't a new development with magic. In "Nightmares"
everyone is affected. In BBB, the spell messes up because it affects
all the women. In "Tabula Rasa" not only Buffy and Tara
are affected, but everyone at the magic box, including Willow.
Everything is connected. When magic goes wrong on the show, it
is because of this connection.
Giles tells Willow she is connected to a great power. Actually,
the connection is this great power. Willow understands the connection
partially. That cannot be taken from her. What she needs to do
is understand it fully and how she is a part of it. Her concern
shouldn't be going evil, but the ripples that she can cause. We
see in "Buffy v Dracula" how little she is concerned
about this. That has been Giles' concern all along. What happened
season 6 with Willow had been built up since season 2.
Why does the First not want Willow to practice magic? Because
then she will understand vidya and the illusion that avidya
really is. Vidya doesn't mean that we don't dance or that
we don't think there is an "I." It means we realize
these are illusions, what we call in Zen, the first creation.
Avidya is thinking these are real. Willow understands how
connected everything is, but she still hasn't put herself in her
lesson. When she does, she will be one with vidya again.
She won't be afraid of going evil and she will be awesome to behold.
It isn't the level of power that the First is concerned about
with Willow Rosenberg. It is her level of understanding. It doesn't
think that she will be able to zap It with her magic. She will
just leave it and return to vidya. That is one part of
Willow Rosenberg. She is more than just a witch. She is also Buffy
Anne Summer's best friend.
[> [> Buffy, Love and
Dawn (spoilers up to Get it Done) -- lunasea, 13:37:33
03/05/03 Wed
Buffy is who the First is most interested in. An alteration in
the mystical forces around the Slayer line caused by Buffy is
what the First is taking advantage of. What are those mystical
forces? We learned in "Get it Done" that the First Slayer
was infused with the heart/essence of a demon. The Beljoxa's Eye
in "Showtime" tells Giles "The mystical forces
surrounding the Chosen line have been irrevocably altered. Become...
unstable.Vulnerable." It says "surrounding," not
in or infused with. There is something more to the Chosen line
than that demon heart.
Mystical=magic. In "Grave" we learned a bit more about
magic. "The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence
of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and power...
the magic she took from me tapped into ... the spark of humanity
she had left." The mystical forces around the Slayer line
tap into their humanity. The First is trying to get Buffy away
from that humanity.
What is humanity? Buffy thought she was loosing hers season 5.
She asks the Spirit Guide in "Intervention" about it.
The Guide responds with "You are full of love. You love with
all of your soul. It's brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's
why you pull away from it... Love is pain, and the Slayer forges
strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain.
It is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift." Our
humanity is our ability to love. The soul is what allows Angel
"to care."
Magic acknowledges that everything is connected. Love also acknowledges
that connection. In "Grave" when Willow is dosed she
feels everyone's pain. Giles has to use magic to do this. Buffy
does it another way. She is full of love, but because she can
feel everyone's pain, she pulls away from it. Buffy doesn't have
normal human love. She has brighter than fire, blinding love.
That is what gives her strength to be a Slayer that has lasted
this long.
In "Intervention" the Spirit Guide tells Buffy that
the only way she risks loosing love is if she rejects it. If she
rejects love, then she looses her humanity and that demon essence
can take over. She will be reduced to what we saw in Restless
of the First Slayer or will she. As she goes back to "I live
in the action of death, the blood cry, the penetrating wound,"
she won't like this. She will want to die.
We saw it happen with two Slayers, Faith in "Five By Five"
and Buffy in "FFL." Typically the titles refer to more
than one thing (usually 3 things). That is the beauty of the multilayered
writing ME does. Spike isn't the only fool for love in that episode.
We have Riley who even though he thinks that Buffy doesn't love
him is sticking around. We also have Buffy herself. In this her
death wish has kicked in. Ever since the Enjoining Spell, Buffy
feels like she is loosing her humanity (hence why she can't connect
with Riley). She is on the hunt more and she is nastier to Spike.
As her humanity/love leaves, she wants to die.
We see Spike in the flashbacks being a fool for love, love of
woman and more importantly love of a good fight. In FFL we see
Buffy's loves conflicting. The demon heart has the love of the
hunt/kill, but Buffy has a true love for people. She accepts being
slayer because she cares so much. As a fool for love, she is becoming
more like the First Slayer and her other side can't handle this
and wants to die. What ultimately saves Buffy is her mother being
sick. In her tears she loves incredibly deeply. When that is gone,
she doubts her ability to love.
That is how it works in the Slayer line. When they start to loose
their humanity, they loose vidya. Then they die. The mystical
forces move onto someone else and avidya can't step in.
Not this time. As Buffy pulled away from the fire, she didn't
die. Avidya can step in.
Buffy loves her best friend very much. We got an incredibly touching
scene at the end of "Same Time Same Place." The First
doesn't want Buffy to have that outlet. It wants her to not have
anything to love and to reject love. The more Buffy loves, the
more she will realize vidya. The more Buffy rejects love
the stronger Avidya will be. That is why the First wanted
Willow to kill herself.
It is also why it uses fear. Fear isolates us. We start to worry
about ourselves and we ignore the connection we have with others.
Willow is concerned about whether she will go evil. She is almost
completely self-absorbed.
So is Field Marshall von Buffy. She is so wrapped up in the physical
battle that she is completely ignoring Dawn. Dawn is what kept
Buffy alive after Joyce died. Dawn is something for Buffy to love.
Dawn is literally Buffy. There is an intense connection there.
It is a living testament to vidya. As long as Buffy has
some acknowledgment of vidya , avidya isn't in total
control. The First is trying to sever the connection between Dawn
and Buffy. Buffy's love is incredibly strong. She died for her
sister. The First cannot go that way. Instead it tries to go through
Dawn.
It did this once before, with Angel. Angel and Buffy's link is
every bit as strong as Dawn and Buffy's. The two of them, with
their bright fires, together really do touch vidya. Buffy
did that with Dawn on the platform in "The Gift." That
is why everything was "It was so ... clear ... on this spot.
I remember ... how ... shiny ... and clear everything was."
Her last words were all about love. Dawn is an annoying sister
and even though the link between them is very strong, those vidya
moments aren't that frequent.
[> Angel (no spoilers)
-- lunasea, 13:34:44 03/05/03 Wed
They are with Angel. No one makes Buffy feel like Angel does and
vice versa. When Buffy is with Angel things are shiny and clear.
Being with Angel is like being in heaven (and heaven is vidya).
There are many examples of this, but the most recent we actually
got to see was "Forever" sitting under a tree with him
holding her. Before "Life Serial" being with Angel actually
temporarily snaps her out of her depression.
They are so connected that she can feel him when he is around.
She was in his dreams. Why? If you have two objects that are linked
by a string, if you pull on that string, both feel it. The First
is going after the Slayer line and Buffy has dreams about the
girls dying. Buffy is connected to the Potentials through the
Slayer line. She may be having dreams about her mother because
of their connection. Buffy has some strong connections (perhaps
so strong she brought Angel back from hell).
The First is trying to sever those. Death isn't enough. Buffy
still loved Angel even when he was dead. Her connection to him
and therefor vidya was still there. That may even be what
generated her dreams at the beginning of season 3. In any dream
in the Buffyverse, the question is what comes from the dreamer
and what comes from elsewhere. That is what makes "Restless"
so hard to interpret. The dreams are a combination of the dreamer,
the First Slayer and the PTB.
In "Amends," the First tries to get Angel to kill Buffy
or at least to try to. In doing this, he would have severed their
connection, whether he succeeded or not. Suicide would have done
the same thing. The scene doesn't end with "Strong is fighting!
It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we
have to do. And we can do it together." Buffy continues after
that. We see how she would have felt if Angel did commit suicide.
She would have completely rejected love. Both actions, murder
and suicide, would have had the same effect. That is why "You're
not supposed to die. This isn't the plan. But it'll do."
The timing of the First is interesting season 3. Angel comes back
from Hell and is in a weakened condition, ripe for mind games.
No First. It doesn't show up until AFTER Buffy says she can't
see Angel any more. She has rejected love, but not completely.
Buffy and Angel both acknowledge that they love each other. They
just don't want to. From this they turn away from the connection
they have. Avidya has a foothold now. It wants more, so
it takes steps to not only have them not want to be together,
but to actually kill their love.
The First has the same problem that all evil does. It underestimates
the power of good/love/vidya. It not only can't make Angel
and Buffy hate each other, but It gets them back together. When
Buffy says "And we can do it together" vidya
won. As usual, the title applies to many things in the episode.
Angel is going to make amends for his past. Willow makes amends
to Oz. Buffy makes amends for breaking up with Angel. Buffy fixes
the foothold the First had. It goes away after this and has to
wait for its new opportunity.
[> Spike, Andrew and conclusion
(spoilers up to Storyteller) -- lunasea, 13:42:51 03/05/03
Wed
It appears in the form of yet another souled vampire. Spike wants
nothing more than to touch vidya. Poor Spike. As a soulless
vampire he was incapable of this. Can't love with all your soul
if you don't have a soul. He goes and gets his soul, so now rejection
of him is avidya. Buffy unknowingly gave the First another
foothold in the world. Buffy doesn't have to have love like she
does for Angel. Spike is a creature in need. Turning her back
on him is an act that is contrary to compassion (another form
of love and vidya). Buffy is shutting Spike out because
she doesn't know how she feels about him. Shutting someone out
is avidya. She is scared to find out how she feels about
him. What would be scarier, loving him or not? Either way, she
isn't turning pain into strength.
The First looses his hold over Spike. Buffy doesn't just turn
her back on Spike. She may not be able to handle him in "Beneath
You," but in "Him" she does get him out of the
basement and tries to help. In "Sleeper," she completely
reaches out to him. Vidya is winning again. What ultimately
gives Spike the strength to not circumb to the First's machinations
is "she believes in me." It might not be Angel/Buffy
love, but it is a connection, an important one. The First couldn't
sever the connection between Buffy and Spike, but it isn't done
with him yet. Wonder what It is waiting for.
Andrew is an interesting character. He latches onto those around
him, but there is no real connection there. Warren didn't really
like him. He was more of a lackey than a friend. The First uses
his obedience to Warren, his desired, but not real connection,
in order to sever his only real connection, Jonathan. In this
action, Andrew gave himself completely over to avidya.
Even though he knew it wasn't Warren, he still cut himself off
from everyone. It wasn't the blood of Jonathan that primed the
seal. It was the surrender of Andrew.
The Scoobies have Andrew as a guestage. He sees the amazing connections
they have to each other. Has Andrew even gotten to see real love
before? I doubt it. He is Tucker's brother. Seeing Kennedy and
Willow making out was nothing, but seeing Xander and Anya talk
in "Storyteller" really moved him. Showing his lack
of interest in Kennedy and Willow wasn't about him being gay,
but to draw a contrast between how Xander and Anya's real exchange
of emotions affected him.
Seeing this sort of love and connectedness showed him what he
really wants. It is what we all want. When people don't get it,
evil results. When Angel looses his soul, he looses this connection
and goes evil. Faith turns evil because of a lack of connection.
She is saved when Angel gives her the opportunity for it. We could
do entire posts about Spike and his desire for connection and
his inability to get this soulless. When Willow looses Tara, her
connection, she goes evil.
Andrew sees this and he is affected by it. When the First comes
to him in "First Date" he is able to refuse. Again the
title refers to three things. It is Buffy's first date with Wood.
It is Xander's first date after Anya. It is also the time the
First appears to Andrew, a sort of date with the First. Andrew
goes to the Scoobies and tells them about this rather than listen
to the First again. He choose vidya over avidya.
After that he really does try to fit in with the Scoobies.
His redemption starts then, but Buffy pushes it ahead in "Storyteller."
Andrew builds up these stories which feature false connections
(the Buffy and Spike stuff at the beginning was great). Buffy
forces Andrew to leave that behind and see the real connection
he had and what he did. He killed his best friend. In seeing that
he choose to sever this connection, he opens up the possibility
of really being able to connect with someone, rather than build
up stories about it. The episode was all about the real connections
v the false ones. It was a fitting episode for Xander/Anya to
be resolved.
Andrew's tears connected him back to Jonathan. In killing Jonathan,
Andrew severed their connection (avidya). In acknowledging
and mourning that, Andrew reestablished that connection (vidya).
That is why the seal stopped working. The one that started it
didn't belong to avidya any more.
Vidya is the connections we all have. Anything that disavows
these connections is avidya or the First. Our humanity
lies in caring about each other. Evil results when we don't. The
Slayer needs to maintain her connection to vidya. If she
doesn't, she dies. If she doesn't die, she gives avidya
a foothold to extinguish the slayer line. It was a system that
worked well, until Buffy Anne Summers came along. She has changed
the forces forever. Every time she rejects love, the First will
have a foothold. We will have to see how ME resolves this.
[> [> That was magnificent,
Lunasea! (spoilers up to Storyteller) -- WickedSpeechless
:>, 14:02:27 03/05/03 Wed
That was incredible. Thank you THANK YOU very much for posting
it and for having the heart and mind to come up with it all.
I think I understand it - for example: Woods overwhelming need
for revenge about his mother is avidya, which makes FE happy.
It's not about love and connection to his mother (which would
be vidya). But if Wood truly forgave Spike and realized revenge
wasn't the way - Wood would then be more to the vidya part of
things?
As for what the FE still wants with Spike... perhaps if Spike
lets Buffy down in some horrible way, Buffy will close down and
avidya happens. I don't think Spike will lose his connection to
Buffy, though, no matter what events transpire around him. But
I do still feel that in Buffys perception, there are still ways
Spike could let her down. And since she's letting him in closer
and closer, the fall with be harder and harder. Perfect for avidya.
Spike being closer to Buffy could be considered an advantage for
FE. Because it allows the hurt and therefore separation (avidya)
to be even greater. As we've seen before, FE did keep trying regarding
Buffy and Angel even though the connection was clearly incredibly
strong. Spike could still possibly be a weak link, then. Buffys
achilles heel.
[> [> Yes, Extremely
Interesting! -- frisby, 14:06:51 03/05/03 Wed
Your post is extremely interesting. I now must wonder how much
the ME team draw from the philosophy of India. Others have shown
this in other ways. Maybe after it's all said and done the "philosophy"
behind the shows (and "in" the writers) will finally
be exposed or revealed.
[> [> [> I always
wonder how much of it is from their subconscious. -- WickedBuffy
::speculating the percentage of sub & con::, 14:13:41 03/05/03
Wed
[> [> [> [> UNconscious
probably wrote the underlying universe -- lunasea, 09:22:57
03/06/03 Thu
I seriously doubt that Freud's warehouse for repressed memories
has anything to do with the show. Dr. Jung's idea of the collective
unconscious probably has a lot of influence though.
If it were just demons, I would say that the unconscious writes
more, but since the demons are actually symbolic representations
of the more mundane things the conscious writes, I would say that
ME is aware of much of what they write.
It is something I have thought about before.
[> [> [> [> [>
Maybe the talk circuit eventually? -- frisby, 11:31:53
03/06/03 Thu
After the series is actually over wouldn't it be interesting if
the ME team (individually, not as a group) made the talk circuit
or wrote books or gave interviews revealing the inner workings
of the team when they were planning the texts and subtexts and
forestadowings and past recurrences etc???
I'd pay to hear a lecture by any of them. Maybe some of them will
attend the conference in Nashville May 20004??
[> [> [> [> [>
[> That would be cool, but I doubt it -- lunasea, 13:03:21
03/06/03 Thu
I think they should put out a book and call it "We Aren't
that Deep, really we aren't."
As long as the Buffyverse exists in some form, whether it is Ripper,
another spin-off, Angel, the comics or the books, I can't see
them giving this completely away.
Jane Espenson had a great article on the "Firefly" site
about how a script is put together. If people haven't seen it,
I would be happy to post it here. I saved it.
[> [> [> Doesn't have
to be India -- lunasea, 14:19:46 03/05/03 Wed
The idea is pretty much the foundation of every spiritual system
and is central to New Age schools. The only thing that is different
is the words used.
It doesn't even have to be spiritual. The best explanation of
this came from Eddie Van Halen. He was giving an interview about
Van Halen III and why he hated digital recording. He said a lot
got lost in the cleaness of digital.
"It isn't about the ones and the zeros, but the space between
them."
Buffy and Angel are written around their hearts. It makes sense
for the Buffyverse to be centered on connection. That is what
makes the shows so great. As JM said, "the ending is going
to make us love more." Hasn't the show always been about
this?
[> [> Marvelous!
-- pellenaka (trying to post this for the third time), 14:27:46
03/05/03 Wed
Showing his lack of interest in Kennedy and Willow wasn't about
him being gay, but to draw a contrast between how Xander and Anya's
real exchange of emotions affected him.
That's an excellent conclusion. I've never seen it made before
but I really like it.
A Question
of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- Scroll, 17:12:07 03/05/03
Wed
Ahem. My attempt at a review of last night's (or, for the Americans,
tonight's) episode of Angel.
Salvage
Connor: "Angelus needs to be destroyed. And I'm the
Destroyer."
Faith: "This is a salvage mission, not search-and-destroy."
Who is the salvager, who is the salvagee? Four years ago, Angel
tried to salvage Faith in "Consequences". He got through
to her a year later, and Faith took her first step to redemption
by turning herself in to the police. From the ease of her break-out,
it's clear she voluntarily stayed in prison for three years because
she believed she had a chance to be redeemed, a chance she got
because of Angel.
Wes couldn't salvage Lilah. It seems almost inevitable that their
relationship would come to a messy, fatal end. But in Lilah's
death Wesley regains something he had lost: the belief that people
can be redeemed. As Hallucination!Lilah says, this belief
in redemption is something Angel taught Wes. (I'll admit Wes surprised
me; I was looking forward to a reprise of "Passion",
with a Giles-like rage against the vampire that had murdered his
girlfriend. Instead, Wesley reacts with hope and compassion.)
Wes and Faith take on a new mission: to salvage Angel.
Unfortunately for Cordy, Wes and Faith (with some unexpected help
from Angelus) end up ruining her carefully laid-out plans. The
Beast has been destroyed. The sun is shining once again. Angelus
can't be controlled; he's not playing by Cordy's rules. And her
power over Connor is waning with the boy's new crush on the powerful
Slayer. So she tries to salvage the situation; she drops a bombshell
that astounds a disbelieving Connor, and brings him firmly under
her control once more.
"We use whatever tools we have."
The Fang Gang keeps playing every card, hoping for a break. Connor
wonders why they bother, since nothing ever works out the way
it should. Well, sometimes things do go their way, as Lorne's
migraine testifies.
Cordelia plays all her cards as well, but seems to be losing ground.
She needs Angel soulless and on the loose, but ends up losing
the Beast to Angelus. She needs Angelus alive, but that puts her
at odds with a rebellious Connor. Faith's arrival strains Cordy's
control over the Fang Gang, and over Connor. So she plays her
last card: she pulls out the old cliché of "We're
having a baby!" (I'm sure many fans are crying 'foul!' right
now. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't mind it. It's evil.
And an evil Cordy is a good thing -- or at least more interesting
than St. Cordelia.)
Angelus, that clever bastard, also uses the tools he has at hand.
He plays the Beast; he plays Faith. While Angel bravely battles
the Beast and slays him in honourable combat, Angelus cleverly
uses Faith to soften up the Beast, then stabs the big hunk o'
rock in the back with his own bone-dagger. Too bad about the sun,
though. Ah well, Angelus philosophises, you win some, you lose
some.
"This is Faith. The Vampire Slayer."
The Beast: "This is all you are. I had heard a Slayer
possessed great strength... There is no real power here. You are
weak. You're nothing."
What is a Slayer? Why are they always girls? What is a Watcher,
and what is his relationship with the Slayer? Why are the Bringers
contracting out to prison inmates to do their dirty work?
It had to be Faith. "Angel's the only one in my life that's
never given up on me, there's no way I'm giving up on him."
Aren't Slayers supposed to slay vampires? But Faith makes it clear
her loyalty is to Angel, and she puts Connor down when he steps
out of line.
Connor, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne are amazed by Faith's confidence.
With defeat after demoralising defeat, the Fang Gang has started
to lose any hope of salvaging their situation. Now a new hero
has come and things are looking up. More precisely, they're looking
up and seeing a bright, shining sun. And they think Faith did
it. She's the Slayer, of course she'll have Angelus hog-tied and
back before dinner.
But Faith knows better. And so does Angelus. And so did the Beast
before he crumbled into gravel. Faith couldn't kill the Beast.
And now she's probably even wondering if she is strong enough
to take on Angelus. And yet...
And yet, when Faith swung those chains and let in the light, I
cheered. Because she is the Slayer. She'll fight Angelus
and, win some or lose some, she'll be the Slayer. Because she
doesn't fight for her life -- she fights like fighting
is her life.
"Thought you could use some release. Feels natural?"
"It's like riding a biker."
Random stuff I loved, liked, and thought were interesting:
Wesley: "You didn't love me! You couldn't."
Lilah: "We'll never know now, will we?"
I would kill to see Alexis Denisof on stage. He and SR
were stunning, tragic, thoughtful, poignant. And Wesley's quavering
disbelief -- "What?" -- at Connor's declaration that
Lilah had to be destroyed. BTW, am I the only one who was kind
of questioning Wesley's sanity for the first half of this episode?
He was downright creepy at times, but also lost and near tears,
like a little boy.
Gunn: "I'll tell you whose fault it is: Powers that sit
on their behinds sending useless, cryptic messages."
Poor Gunn. Only last episode you were thanking the Powers for
their timely intervention. Now that you've discovered a whole
new level of Bad, you're starting to wonder if the PTB are really
as good and almighty as they advertise.
Wesley: "Maybe you're rusty."
Faith: "Maybe I am."
Wesley: "Maybe we should find out."
I love, love, love Faith and Wesley, Slayer/Watcher Team,
Take 2. I think Faith will be really good for Wesley right now,
and maybe Wesley can be of some good to Faith as well. It's an
interesting comparison to Buffy/Giles and Justine/Holtz, and even
to Faith/the Mayor.
Four years ago, Wesley came to Sunnydale expecting to give orders
and be obeyed. He didn't think to take Buffy and Faith into account
as people -- only as Slayers. Now, Wesley isn't so foolish. He
lets Faith take charge and backs her up at every step. He guides,
he doesn't dictate. He still needs Faith as his "big gun",
but he chooses Faith and not Buffy because he remembers
the person behind the Slayer power. Buffy, as much as she loves/loved
Angel, would take out Angelus; Faith, whose love for Angel is
no less real, is determined to bring Angelus in alive.
Angelus: "Hey, Dawn. It's me."
Well, we've now got the proof that Angel actually keeps in touch
with Buffy -- at least enough that Dawn will recognise him by
his voice -- despite the lack of on-screen evidence.
Connor: "She's... amazing! I mean, I had no idea what
a Slayer could do."
Cordelia: "A weakness for Slayers. You're definitely his
son."
Awww, that's so cute! Connor has a crush on Faith! Unfortunately,
it wasn't Faith who destroyed the Beast and brought back the sun
-- it was Angelus. I wonder what will happen to Connor's crush
when he finds that out?
Actually, I wonder if Faith will even tell the Fang Gang? They
seem to need to believe in her; they need her to be their hope.
Maybe letting them think she defeated the Beast is a kindness.
They're sort of running low on Champions, after all. Faith is
all they have left.
[Whew! That was fun. But very stressful sitting on this for 24
hours... : ) ]
[> What is it with this
bloodline and Slayers? -- Doug, 18:11:42 03/05/03 Wed
You said it; great episode, tough sitting on spoilers for a day
though.
That weakness for Slayers doesn't just affect both Angel and Spike,
but Connor as well. Every male from Darla's bloodline falls prey
to it; what is up with that? I wouldn't have been surprised if
Holden had fallen victim to it as well given sufficient time.
On to other matters. Connor views the coming of Angelus almost
like a blessing; goodbye moral ambiguity, hello black-and-white
universe that he was taught about by Daniel Holtz. This is going
to get messy when Angel gets resouled (they aren't going to leave
him as Angelus). Of course, it could easily get messy before that.
In addition, Connor has picked up a disdain for magic equivalet
to that of the warriors in a lot of Fatasy novels.
Loved having Faith back; particularly because her spirit wasn't
broken by prison. She still is irreverent, she still has the 'tude.
Gunn: I handle myself
Faith: That's a shame
Particularly funny when compared against Calvary and Gunn's "sometimes
you just have to keep whacking".
On the more serious side I loved the effectiveness with which
the gang operated in this episode; if it hadn't been for Connor's
insubordination they might have cought Angelus and killed the
beast; who knows? I think that within the space of one episode
Faith showed more leadership ability than a certain other slayer
showed in all of season 7 to date.
In short: Loved the episode, loved Faith being back, loved Faith
trying to save Angel, loved Gunn's maturity, Wes' decisiveness,
and hope Wesley kills evil Cordy in a "Passon" style
act of vengeance.
But I'm willing to compromise on that last point.
[> [> Good question,
wish I had an answer! (speculations, spoilers) -- Scroll,
18:33:29 03/05/03 Wed
You said it! Angel, Spike, Connor... Next ME is gonna tell us
Drusilla had a secret love affair with the Chinese Slayer from
"Fool For Love". Well, it's nice to know the boys have
a family resemblence ; )
Connor views the coming of Angelus almost like a blessing;
goodbye moral ambiguity, hello black-and-white universe that he
was taught about by Daniel Holtz.
Certainly makes things easier for Connor if he believes Angelus
is the real deal, and Angel is just something he's "forced
to wear". Cuz then Connor doesn't have to kill a father who
actually loves him. No, he'd only be killing Angelus, a soulless
demon just like any other vampire. No soul, no guilt.
Connor does raise an interesting point, though. How many people
will Angelus have to kill before the Fang Gang give up the dream
of salvaging Angel?
See, I have a theory which I do NOT want confirmed! So
if you're spoiled, please don't tell me if I'm right or wrong!
Basically, we have yet to see Angelus kill anyone. In fact,
so far we've seen him kill one vampire, save one girl from getting
eaten by other vampires, and we've seen him destroy the Beast,
bringing back the sun. So I gotta ask myself, is this really Angelus?
Cuz it looks like Angelus, sounds like Angelus, but the actions...
they're kind of a mix of Angel and Angelus, aren't they?
I mean, sticking a pen through a demon's hand is pretty cruel
but not anything Angel hasn't done before. Sure, he looks like
he's going to snack on that girl, but the point is he doesn't.
"Angelus" has managed to kill the Beast, which is what
Angel's been trying to do since "Rain of Fire/Apoc, Nowish".
So tell me, how is this vampire running around L.A. any different
from the Angel we've always known?
Angelus didn't even kill Lilah, fer God's sake! He just pretended
he did! So my theory is that Angel/Angelus, whatever he is, is
something new and different. Something that will change the ideological
construct of Angel's "soul" forever.
BTW, please feel free to tell me I'm insane : )
[> [> [> Maybe that's
what the ensoulment spell they tried really did. . . -- Finn
Mac Cool, 19:14:42 03/05/03 Wed
Maybe it was actually a curse, causing Angelus to be destined
to do the right thing, however much he may want to do evil.
Or it could just be coincidence. Maybe, when they resoul Angel,
they don't want to bother giving him new angst.
[> [> [> Re: Good
question, wish I had an answer! (speculations, spoilers) --
maddog, 21:56:09 03/05/03 Wed
While you have an interesting theory you must have missed a few
things. For one, Angelus fed off of Lilah even if he didn't kill
her. And he didn't save that girl...he acted like he was going
to and then he showed his true face and bit her. No, you're not
insane...but I have to disagree on your theory. I think it's Angelus
and that they need to find where Cordy put that damn soul and
in a hurry.
[> [> [> [> I'm
not saying Angelus is a nice guy (spoilers) -- Scroll, 22:03:41
03/05/03 Wed
I'm just wondering if maybe ME is picking up the thread where
Spike left off regarding vampires and souls. Maybe the soul doesn't
make that big a difference after all.
Okay, yes he was going to bite that girl. He probably would've
killed Faith too. Maybe I'm just rambling... I guess what I'm
saying is, Angelus and Angel aren't two different people. They
have similar agendas and end up achieving the same goals.
[> [> [> [> beg
to differ on a quibble :> (spoilers Salvage) -- WickedBuffy,
20:27:13 03/06/03 Thu
We didn't see Angel/Angelus actually feeding off Lilah, we saw
him holding her as if he had.
Angel/Angelus didn't bite the girl.
The Angel/Angelus killing count stands at: Demons 2 and Humans
0
[> [> [> like father/like
son -- lunasea, 08:09:29 03/06/03 Thu
Certainly makes things easier for Connor if he believes Angelus
is the real deal, and Angel is just something he's "forced
to wear". Cuz then Connor doesn't have to kill a father who
actually loves him. No, he'd only be killing Angelus, a soulless
demon just like any other vampire. No soul, no guilt.
Like father, like son. They are both good at dissociation so they
don't have to actually deal with anything. I particularly liked
in "Soulless" when Connor said "My father was a
good man" and quickly replaced it with Holtz. Connor still
hasn't dealt with what Holtz did to himself or how he set up Angel.
Everything is still all Angelus' fault.
Cuz it looks like Angelus, sounds like Angelus, but the actions...
they're kind of a mix of Angel and Angelus, aren't they?
Great pick up. I was more concerned about ME worried about how
the audience would accept Angel back when he got resouled if we
had to see him kill things. They had him in vamp face when he
killed Jenny for this reason. Perhaps we are seeing something
similar, (if he is going to be kissing Buffy any time soon).
I like your reason better. I was hoping that Angelus would be
different since Angel has grown. I bet you are right. We need
that stick from "The Replacement" so we can split Angel
in two.
So tell me, how is this vampire running around L.A. any different
from the Angel we've always known?
He doesn't care. He is just having fun. He laughs and he smiles.
He is great at connecting with others.
Angelus didn't even kill Lilah, fer God's sake! He just pretended
he did!
Actually he didn't even pretend. He told Wes that it wasn't what
it looked like. He had Wes' old girlfriend and he didn't even
torture him with some witty remark. I can't wait for Angel to
get resouled and for them to start puzzling out who did actually
kill Lilah.
[> [> [> Fun with
soul-theories -- Gyrus, 09:00:46 03/06/03 Thu
Basically, we have yet to see Angelus kill anyone. In fact,
so far we've seen him kill one vampire, save one girl from getting
eaten by other vampires, and we've seen him destroy the Beast,
bringing back the sun. So I gotta ask myself, is this really Angelus?
Cuz it looks like Angelus, sounds like Angelus, but the actions...
they're kind of a mix of Angel and Angelus, aren't they?
Here's my pet theory: Angel/Angelus DOES have a soul -- but it's
not his own. Maybe Cordelia's spell gave Angelus the soul of a
deceased serial killer or something so that Angelus could fool
Lorne but remain a homicidal maniac. But even a killer's sould
would include some vestiges of a human conscience, which might
make Angelus slightly more hesitant to kill human beings.
[> [> Re: What is it
with this bloodline and Slayers? -- Slainey, 19:20:24 03/05/03
Wed
Oh sure, it's easy to be a quippy and leadery when you've been
safe in the sun for the last few months (even it if it a sunny
prison yard.) With the rest of AI suffering from seasonal affective
disorder Faith is going to look downright cheery by comparison.
I liked seeing Connor have a crush on Faith. It's the most alive
he's looked since he got there.
[> [> [> Re: What
is it with this bloodline and Slayers? -- Peggin, 20:01:20
03/05/03 Wed
Oh sure, it's easy to be a quippy and leadery when you've been
safe in the sun for the last few months
It's also really easy to be a good leader when people actually
listen to you, rather than whining and complaining and undermining
your authority in public.
[> [> [> [> Also
easier when you have a direct goal to give people, rather than
vague preparedness. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:05:34 03/05/03
Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Isn't that the responsibility of a leader? -- Doug, 20:52:01
03/05/03 Wed
Being a leader should not be about making the most self-important
speeches; but about co-ordinating assets to achieve goals. What
has Buffy done as a leader? She's stood around making speeches
about the gravity of the situation, but precious little to improve
that situation. She reacts to attacks, but doesn't provide goals,
strategic or tactical, to those under her command. Then she blames
them for her failings.
Faith comes in, utter unknown to these people. She does her best
to plan out a means of achieving the AI gang's current strategic
goals: Recover Angelus, and then try to fight the beast. She then
interprets those into tactical goals: Since the Hyperion is warded
they can leave the less able fighters there safely while using
the most powerful fighters to track Angelus. She deals with insubordination
very effectively when she realizes that Connor isn't trying to
fullfill the same goals as the rest of the group.
The key difference between Faith and Buffy is ego. Buffy's has
been swelled by everyone telling her howimportant she is, and
by every apocalypse she's already stopped. Therefore she casts
herself as General Buffy, Field Marshall von Summers. Faith never
had that level of validation, she was always another slayer, an
extra. That, and her prison time, I think have turned her into
someone who doesn't Have to be a General; but is instead Leutenant
Faith, who is in command until Captain Agel can return to duty.
And instead of lording it over her little people she actually
interacts with 2nd leutenant Wesley, Sergeant Gunn, and smacks
down Corporal Connor when he gets out of line.
*That* is more what leadership is; than an endless stream of meaningless
rhetoric.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Keep in mind: no one, Buffy included, has any idea of
what to do. -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:03:50 03/05/03 Wed
Even before Faith arrived, AI knew what their objective was. They
needed to stop Angelus (either through dusting or through capture),
and Faith just needed to coordinate how that would play out. In
the Sunnydale situation, there's the little problem that their
goal (defeating the First Evil) can't be done unless they find
some crucial info on it or it takes corporeal form. A good leader
who's got no way to hurt the enemy or anything that her followers'
attention can be fixed on besides simple survival just simply
cannot do well. To make the two situations parralell, Angelus
would need to be discorpreal, and Faith would need to keep the
AI team up and fighting for weeks or even months.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Oh, I forgot to mention. . . -- Finn Mac Cool,
21:05:20 03/05/03 Wed
That AI is a bunch of experienced demon fighters. Most of those
Buffy is working with have never even seen a vampire face to face
before.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Those are fair arguments -- Doug, 05:30:05
03/06/03 Thu
In response I would say that there are still valid strategies
that help with the goal of survival. Increased protections on
the house, either mystical or physical, would be a good place
to start. Since the first evil can't do anything without it's
minions an attempt to limit it's minion supply might not be a
bad idea; either by tracking down and plugging up sources (like
the seal) or by just declaring a general Bringer hunt: Individual
who collects the most bringer scalps gets extra bathroom time.
Even attempts to improve their resource situation would not be
bad as an overall strategy (and might explain how they are feeding
everybody). Have they tried to access the Council's old accounts?
I don't know, they haven't mentioned it in favour of Buffy's speeches.
Or have Anya ad Spike go on a crime spree if they're really strapped
for cash.
I'm not actually suggesting any of these specifically, but it
would be ice to see Buffy doing *something* to guide the group
and assign tactical goals that would be constructive in achieving
the groups strategic goal: Stay alive.
On that last point; while the Potentials have little or no combat
experience, Buffy does have a core of individuals who have all
fought at least one, usually more, apocalypsi. And for that matter
her forces far outnumber AI's.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Not really anything I want to see screen
time devoted to -- lunasea, 08:29:37 03/06/03 Thu
this is BtVS. I don't want time taken away from anything to actually
be strategic. It is fun to speculate what they *could* do, but
that is about it. Leave the show for what really matters. I was
impressed that they mentioned repairing the house. Who else thought
after CwDP the house would be miraculously fine? That was enough
reality. Get back to the interaction amoung the characters.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Isn't that the responsibility of a leader? --
lunasea, 08:21:57 03/06/03 Thu
Faith has ONE goal, to save Angel. She isn't being manipulated
into anything. She has something corporal to pound. She is fighting
a one-front war.
Buffy is completely surrounded on all sides. She has to deal with
her own shit, Spike's shit, Willow's shit, the Potentials, Dawn,
The First, her wacked dreams (what did I leave out). Buffy doesn't
have anything to do. Things get tossed at her who knows when.
As she said in regards to Angelus, "how can I prepare when
I don't know what I am preparing for."
Being a leader isn't about planning. It is about motivating. Lietenants
can come up with the plan. It isn't about directing assets. Underlings
can handle that, too. Leaders appear to do these things, because
that tends to motivate people.
Leadership is rhetoric. Buffy is doing the best she can. She is
trying to motivate the troops. She just forgot the best way to
lead is through example. It isn't Buffy's ego that is the problem.
It is her lack of hope. How can a leader give hope to others when
she lacks it herself.
Faith isn't in that position.
[> [> Connor and Magic
(spoilers Salvage and somewhat known casting spoiler - not FtVS)
-- Tyreseus, 00:14:42 03/06/03 Thu
In addition, Connor has picked up a disdain for magic equivalet
to that of the warriors in a lot of Fatasy novels.
Connor's attitude towards magic reminds me of his earlier attitude
about demons... bad, kill them!
Inch by inch, Connor is beginning to see the world in gray, where
demons like Lorne can be serving the greater good. But it's nice
to know that there's still a great deal of tension between him
and Lorne.
Did Lorne expect the sanctuary spell to work when he tried to
play Professor Plum with the Candlestick in the Lobby? Why didn't
Gunn or Fred try to stop Lorne from introducing Connor's head
to the blunt weapon? It's clear that Lorne hasn't much liked Connor
since, well, since the toddler was in diapers, but physical attack
hasn't been a part of their interaction lately.
But what Connor's attitude towards magic puts me in mind of...
my *accidental* exposure to the spoiler that Willow comes to LA
to resoul Angel. How's Connor going to react to "the most
powerful Wicca," who has known magic addiction?
Loved Wesley's response to Connor, though, "we use the tools
we have."
But, knowing what we do about magic use in the Whedonverse, are
the AI team relying too much on magic? They've been pretty heavy
handed with it this season... the memory spell, the spell to take
Angel's soul, the spell to resoul Angel (that didn't work), and
most of their efforts to snare the beast have involved trying
to find a spell.
And the burning questions, what do you get when you mix the genetics
of a "superbeing" child of two vampires with a half-demon,
former "divine being"?
Angel's heart has been beating all season (since Ground State)
and how is that going to come into play?
And was Faith beaten so badly because she's crippled by her own
guilt? (Need more psychology from Faith, has she forgiven herself?
Why was she remaining in prison despite armageddon? How may biker
chicks did she ride in prison?)
[> [> [> Fun with
genetics, Buffyverse style! -- Valheru, 01:20:22 03/06/03
Thu
And the burning questions, what do you get when you mix the
genetics of a "superbeing" child of two vampires with
a half-demon, former "divine being"?
In normal genetics, the dominant genes rule, and in this case
that would probably be the mostly-divine-for-a-summer mother.
But hey, in the Buffyverse, the divine part maybe cancels out
the demonic and vampiric parts, leaving them with a normal human
baby (sort of like the Marvel Comics mutant Quicksilver's and
Inhuman Crystal's baby, Luna, who is also human).
But what if Dawn and Connor got together? One shouldn't be human.
The other one shouldn't even exist. What would that give them?
One non-existant baby ball of energy?
Or what about Veruca and Clem? One is all hair. The other is all
skin. The baby would look like a bulldog with a wig on.
And then there's everyone's favorite couple, Balthazar and Marcie
Ross. Ever have that dream where you're running but you just aren't
getting anywhere? It's because you've just run into the world's
largest invisible demon.
[> [> [> [> Dawn
is human (spoiler Salvage) -- lunasea, 08:42:59 03/06/03
Thu
But what if Dawn and Connor got together? One shouldn't be
human. The other one shouldn't even exist. What would that give
them? One non-existant baby ball of energy?
Dawn is human. She is an innocent. A ball of energy isn't an innocent.
If a Slayer's kid is normal, who is human with a demon essense,
why wouldn't Dawn's kid be normal?
Connor should be sterile. He really only has one parent, Angel.
Darla was just the vessel for this. Maybe he is and the baby isn't
his. Maybe, hopefully.
[> [> [> [> [>
What the heck are you talking about? -- Scroll, 10:41:48
03/06/03 Thu
Connor has two biological parents. Count 'em. One: Angel.
Two: Darla. Sorry, lunasea, but Darla was not just a vessel.
I mean, look at the kid's hair! That is not Angel hair. And Connor
happens to have blue eyes. Which I'm going to assume he got from
his blue-eyed mother and not his brown-eyed dad.
(When teenaged Connor first arrived on the scene, I know many
of us posters kept saying ME had done a wonderful casting job
because VK looked so much like Julie Benz. Take that for
what it's worth.)
As for whether Connor is sterile, we don't know at this point
and we probably won't find out unless the writers take him to
the doctor's for a full body work-up. But Connor isn't like a
mule, y'know. He's not a mix of two different species and
therefore can't reproduce. Angel and Darla were both vampires,
and Connor is (mostly) human. He has powers similar to a vampire,
but he is considered human. Not a mule.
But I do agree that Dawn's kid would most likely be normal. We
don't really know for sure, of course, but it would seem that
(as of "Potential") her Key-ness is being ignored and
we're to see her as simply a human teenager.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Ack! He's the spitting image of his Mom! -- Masq,
13:52:41 03/06/03 Thu
Now the temperment, I'd say he got that from his Dad. And the
personality in general, from both dads.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I think Holtz still plays a huge role -- Scroll,
19:32:47 03/06/03 Thu
Holtz is still incredibly influential on Connor's life, in the
way he thinks and responds to situations. I think lunasea postulated
somewhere above that when Connor said to Angelus, "My father
was a good man," he actually meant Angel. I'm going to respectfully
disagree. I think he really did mean Holtz. To Connor, Holtz always
will be a good man despite framing Angel for his suicide and leading
Connor to commit pseudo-patricide.
Yes, Connor does love Angel (though he'd never admit it under
torture) but he still loves Holtz too. He holds Holtz as above
suspicion; even Holtz's evil acts can be rationalised and justified.
He adores Holtz in a way he can't/won't adore Angel.
What I really want to see is more about how Connor feels about
Darla. While we know Holtz basically told Connor that Angelus
was evil, evil, evil, we have no idea what kind of stories he
told about Darla. Did Holtz tell Connor that Darla had died with
honour, sacrificing her life for him out of love? Or did he only
tell about the slaughter and mayhem?
I'm crossing my fingers that Angel will see another season,
and we'll see Connor come to grips with his two mothers.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Connor and Darla -- Masq, 19:57:29
03/06/03 Thu
Holtz knew Darla sacrificed herself to save her baby before he
went to Quortoth. So he had this knowledge when he raised Connor.
Holtz also knew Darla for a dozen years as an evil demon-bitch
as responsible for his family's death as Angelus was. It's hard
to know what he would tell Connor. After all, I imagine Holtz
did not know Darla was possessed by Connor's soul at the time
she saved Connor's life at the expense of her own.
What interested me was how Connor reacted both times Darla's name
was mentioned. The first time was in Apocalype Nowish when Connor
and Cordelia come upon the alley behind Caritas. Cordelia says,
"Darla!" And Connor perks up and says, "My mother!"
The second instance is when Connor is down in the basement with
Angelus. Angelus is going on about how he'll have to stake himself
to get away from Connor, and then he says, "Darla felt the
same way." You can see Connor turn slightly at the sound
of that name. Like he is hungry to hear about his mother, but
afraid of what Angelus will say about her. It's almost as if he
knows she sacrificed herself for him and he is afraid of hearing
otherwise from Angelus.
Almost as if he needs to believe that Darla had some good in her,
because (1) we all want our parents to have some good in them,
just as people and (2) what Darla and Angel(us) are, Connor judges
himself as. He longs to know both his parents had good in them.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Excellent thoughts, Masq. And what
is Connor's darkest fear? -- Ixchel, 23:09:05 03/06/03
Thu
IMHO, it's that Angel and Darla are the evil things Holtz surely
described (a very refined form of psychological torture - _you_
aren't bad, but the things that you're made of are) and nothing
more. That Angel, the good father, is an illusion and Darla killed
herself because of loathing not love. And so Connor has no choice
and no chance of being anything but evil.
Dawn had similar feelings, a belief that she may be inherently
evil. And she must still struggle with the idea that she's not
"real", but just an amalgamation of false memories.
That if her creation spell was undone and the memories removed,
it would be as if she never existed.
It's interesting how the two are paralleled.
Ixchel
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Agee Ixchel -- aliera, 05:20:37
03/07/03 Fri
The soul cannot exist without its other side which is always found
in a "you."1 Jung
You are not the source of me. Buffy
I come back to fear of self and seeking for self as the continuing
main arc for the shows and for this year. Connor's fear is why
he was still so quick to identify Holtz as his true father? And
why eCordy's really attracted to Connor? (Poor Connor...he needs
to be set down amoungst the Potentials I think.) The question
Rufus asked yesterday is relevant, "Who are you?" Connor
is more than his birth.
In 1956, Carl Jung wrote: "We are living in what the Greeks
called the keiros--the right moment--for a `metamorphosis of the
gods,' of the fundamental principles and symbols. This peculiarity
of our time, which is certainly not of our conscious choosing,
is the expression of the unconscious man within us who is changing.
http://www.headlinemuse.com/askhermes/onbeinghuman03.htm
Who is Connor? Who is Dawn? Who is Gwen? Who is Cordy? Who is
Faith? Cunn? Fred? Xander? Anya? Willow? Angel? Buffy?
Then who is this other to whom I am more attached than to myself,
since, at the heart of my assent to my own identity it is still
he who wags me?2 Lacan
A demon? A slayer? A superhuman? It seems as more than a few posters
have noted that it is the humanity that is highlighted and not
just in Dawn.
It's interesting how the two are paralleled (and also how
they are juxtaposed? Two young people with super powers; but lately
they seem to be highlighting Dawn's humanity Both Dawn and Connor
qualify as potentials for the traditional hero's journey on the
basis of inhuman birth.
Jove in the clouds had his inhuman birth.
No mother suckled him, no sweet land gave
Large-mannered motions to his mythy mind.
He moved among us, as a muttering king,
Magnificent, would move among his hinds,
Until our blood, commingling, virginal,
With heaven, brought such requital to desire
The very hinds discerned it, in a star.
Shall our blood fail? Or shall it come to be
The blood of paradise? And shall the earth
Seem all of paradise that we shall know?
The sky will be much friendlier then than now,
A part of labor and a part of pain,
And next in glory to enduring love,
Not this dividing and indifferent blue.(3)
--"Sunday Morning"
From Hermes of Headline muse again:
Two years ago my introductory article for the New Year was
titled "On Being Human: Life and Significance in this New
Millennium" (HeadlineMuse.com January 2001). In it, I argue
that the significance of life in this millennium turns on the
question of what it means to "be human." I further argue
that while great attention has been focused on advances in science
and technology, the culture is in danger of neglecting this more
fundamental question. Mythic consciousness is foundational to
the question of what it means to "be human."
I don't think we're in danger of it in these shows. But what Joss
seems to say is that it is the human in the myth that impels the
major conflict and yet the human in the superhuman that also impels
the victory. Xander appealing to the human in Willow. Spike's
seeking for the human in himself. Buffy's human need to show dawn
the world to allow dawn to come into herself. It is the humaness
in the characters that allows us to connect. It is the human feeling
in Connor that set up both his tragedy and may lead him to his
actualization. I suspect with Dawn that the emphasis on her lack
of powers is the mislead. That she is still the key and may very
well turn out to be a key to the answer. But if so, I also suspect
that it is her humanity that will impel the answer.
I. C. G. Jung, The Practice of Psychotherapy , tr. R. F. C. Hull,
Vol. XVI of The Collected Works of C. J. Jung (Princeton, NJ.,
1966), par. 545.
2. Jacques Lacan, "The Insistence of the Letter in the Unconscious,"
in Structuralism , ed. Jacques Ehrmann (New York, 1970), p. 133.
3.Stevens, Wallace. Sunday Morning. www.library.utoronto.ca/utel/rp/poems/stevens4.html.
[> [> [> Have to disagree
Tyreseus.*L -- Briar Rose, 02:18:59 03/06/03 Thu
<the spell to resoul Angel (that didn't work)....
It's interesting that you say that because I suspected that something
was wrong with the stated intent versus the actual intent of that
spell to return Angel's soul by Cordy's choice ingrediant of a
"soul eater" to complete the spell.*L
Oh - the spell worked exactly as common sense said it would. In
fact it worked so well that it sucked Angel's soul right out of
the safe! It was not that the spell "didn't work" -
it was that the rst of AI didn't knwo the true outcome it was
supposed to have.
That was confirmed when Evil/Cordy took out Lilah and stated her
purpose in letting Angelus out.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Have to disagree Tyreseus.*L -- Tyreseus, 02:37:15 03/06/03
Thu
Okay, you got me. Obviously, the spell worked exactly as Evil!Cordy
wanted it to, but from the AI team perspective, it failed.
Hey, am I the only one who thinks Cordelia turned evil because
she once dated Xander Harris and he's got some mystical hex/curse
that turns all his girlfriends (who aren't already demons) evil?
Cordelia... Anya... Willow (technically not a girlfriend, but
they did do a lot of smooching)... yup, he's got the track record
to fear.
[> [> [> [> [>
Xander's women -- Tess, 09:14:31 03/06/03 Thu
Don't forget Faith. Xander and Faith made with the moves and the
next thing you know she's being the mayor's right hand slayer.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Xander Harris: Poster Boy for the 'Just say no to sex'
campaign.*L -- Briar Rose, 00:20:45 03/07/03 Fri
[> [> [> Is Angel's
heart really beating? -- Helen, 02:50:01 03/06/03 Thu
Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I thought Gwen's little
power surge just gave it a jolt and then it stopped. Cos a vampire
with a heart that beats... hmm.
[> [> [> [> I don't
think so -- Gyrus, 09:07:37 03/06/03 Thu
Yes, I think Angel's heart only beat for a few seconds before
it stopped again.
A lot of people thought that Angel's sudden make-out session with
Gwen when his heart started up was hokey, but from a psychophysiological
point of view, it makes a lot of sense. Part of the experience
of emotion is physiological feedback; if you suddenly feel the
same physiological sensations you associate with passion, you
might just act accordingly.
[> [> [> That's an
assumption (spoiler Slavage) -- lunasea, 08:34:58 03/06/03
Thu
And the burning questions, what do you get when you mix the
genetics of a "superbeing" child of two vampires with
a half-demon, former "divine being"?
How do we know that the baby is Connor's? We saw Cordelius kiss
The Beast. What if the baby is actually The Beast's? Then it comes
out demon like and how would Connor react?
[> [> [> ok, that's
it--i'm not reading *any* post that says 'spoiler'... -- anom,
17:56:25 03/06/03 Thu
...unless it specifically says it's for an ep I've already seen!
If it's cryptic, I'm gonna come down on the side of "don't
read it"!
And some of you others, keep the actual spoilers out of subject
lines, even for eps that have aired! No, it hasn't happened in
this thread (so far), but scroll up & you'll see what I mean.
Or don't, if you don't want to know about it.
[> [> [> [> Big
Apologies -- Tyreseus, 18:45:46 03/06/03 Thu
Sorry, tried to be as clear as possible without actually mentioning
which spoiler I meant in the subject line.
I've tried so hard to be spoiler-free as well and still got caught
with this one.
Sorry, I know it sucks to be spoiled.
Ty
[> [> that's a sweeping
generalization -- lunasea, 07:50:33 03/06/03 Thu
That weakness for Slayers doesn't just affect both Angel and
Spike, but Connor as well.
Angel has a weakness for BUFFY. She just happens to be a Slayer.
Angel fell in love with her before she was even Called. Actually,
Angel's weakness is for blonds.
Connor likes Faith. He has never met Buffy, so how can you say
that he has a weakness for slayers?
Spike has never met Faith, so we don't know if it is Slayers in
general or just Buffy. He likes a challenge and to a vamp Slayers
are the ultimate challenge.
If we are going to say that Angel and Spike have a weakness for
Slayers because they like Buffy, then Riley does too so does and
Xander. Xander actually did like both Faith and Buffy. Then again,
Xander also liked Cordy and Anya.
Such statements are like when Spike said that Buffy had a thing
for vampires. She liked ONE, but she liked him when he was human,
too. Evil doesn't always understand things.
[> [> [> Re: that's
a sweeping generalization -- maddog, 11:49:24 03/06/03
Thu
That's not entirely true. He did meet Faith...in Buffy's body...but
they were Faith's words...her sentiments(and they were rather
hot if I remember correctly). I'll bet the old Spike would go
for Faith.
[> [> that's a sweeping
generalization -- lunasea, 07:52:08 03/06/03 Thu
That weakness for Slayers doesn't just affect both Angel and
Spike, but Connor as well.
Angel has a weakness for BUFFY. She just happens to be a Slayer.
Angel fell in love with her before she was even Called. Actually,
Angel's weakness is for blonds.
Connor likes Faith. He has never met Buffy, so how can you say
that he has a weakness for slayers?
Spike has never met Faith, so we don't know if it is Slayers in
general or just Buffy. He likes a challenge and to a vamp Slayers
are the ultimate challenge.
If we are going to say that Angel and Spike have a weakness for
Slayers because they like Buffy, then Riley does too so does and
Xander. Xander actually did like both Faith and Buffy. Then again,
Xander also liked Cordy and Anya.
Such statements are like when Spike said that Buffy had a thing
for vampires. She liked ONE, but she liked him when he was human,
too. Evil doesn't always understand things.
[> [> Maybe it's not
Darla, maybe its the link to the Master -- Helen, 08:59:49
03/06/03 Thu
He was aware of the prophecies regarding his link to the fate
of the Slayer, so maybe that's where the obsession originates
(I am right in thinkning the Master sired Darla aren't I?).
[> [> [> Vampire Family
Tree! -- Scroll, 11:02:04 03/06/03 Thu
You're right, the Master sired Darla. Here's how the whole family
tree goes.
Master ==> Darla, the Anointed One (Collin from BtVS S1)
Darla ==> Angelus
Angelus ==> Drusilla
Drusilla ==> Spike, Darla (the second time)
Darla + Angel = Connor
Therefore Connor and Drusilla are siblings, but Connor is also
Drusilla's uncle. But because Drusilla re-sired Darla, Connor
is also Drusilla's grandson.
Connor is Spike's uncle, brother, and great-uncle.
Connor is actually Angel's (half?) brother since Darla sired Angelus
and gave birth to Connor.
Yep, this is one messed-up vamp clan. Poor Connor, he was better
off with Holtz!
[> [> Re: What is it
with this bloodline and Slayers? [Faith vs Buffy][spoiler spec]
-- Walking Turtle, 09:47:44 03/06/03 Thu
'in the space of one episode Faith showed more leadership ability
than a certain other slayer showed in all of season 7 to date'
How would the actions of Faith displayed in 4.13 have work against
First Evil? In a post below someone compared her actions to Buffy's
1st fight with the Ubervamp. Including the spit of blood.
To me the fun will be seeing how Faith's experiences in LA affect
her actions in Sunnydale [not a spoiler] - she has to go to Sunnydale
-- if she dies one of the Potentials is 'Chosen'
[> Re: A Question of Faith
- Salvage (spoilers) -- Thran, 19:56:59 03/05/03 Wed
Unfortunately for Cordy, Wes and Faith (with some unexpected
help from Angelus) end up ruining her carefully laid-out plans.
The Beast has been destroyed. The sun is shining once again. Angelus
can't be controlled; he's not playing by Cordy's rules.
I wonder . . . it it a totally loony theory to think that Angelus'
killing The Beast was all part of Evil Cordy's plans? Just something
to throw out there. I too am very excited to see MY favorite slayer
back in the mix. I cheered Continuity With BtVS twice -- the Bringer's
knife and the phone call to Dawn. However, I did have to think,
just how dumb are the Bringers to think an ordinary woman can
take out a frickin' Slayer? They couldn't really expect it to
work, could they? They sent at least two or three Bringers after
each of the Potentials that we've seen, for goodness' sake! Anway.
::Cheers Faith and Wes:: They have such great chemistry with each
other now. Faith seems to like the new Wes ("You're lookin'
. . . good") and in fact may be just what she needs right
now. And vice versa. I can't wait to see where this season goes.
[> [> Not totally looney
(spoilers) -- Scroll, 20:23:16 03/05/03 Wed
I wonder . . . it it a totally loony theory to think that Angelus'
killing The Beast was all part of Evil Cordy's plans?
It might be part of Cordy's plan, or Angelus killing the Beast
might be in somebody's plan if not Cordy's. I think from
the look on her face in that last scene, Cordy was not
a happy camper about the sun being back.
She seemed to need both the Beast and Angelus working for her,
and possibly working together to achieve her plans... whatever
her plans might be.
I love the Faith/Wes chemistry. They're so suited for each other,
as partners and as (possibly?) friends. I want to see them actually
talk, about the past and about Slayer business. More Faith/Wes!
[> [> Re: A Question
of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- Slainey, 20:56:56 03/05/03
Wed
I'm glad Faith could just look at Wes and know he had changed.
They didn't have to have a pissing contest. He even seemed to
smile when she jumped them out that window.
[> [> [> 'Five by
Five' -- maddog, 22:27:14 03/05/03 Wed
I thought she was nuts to do that with Wes in her arms but hey,
he made it...and his "Five by Five" response was classic.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Continuing the parallels -- Brian, 09:42:17 03/06/03 Thu
Faith's jump with Wesley continues the parallel structure of Faith
and Buffy as it recalled the jump from the warehouse that Buffy
made with the Monk when she first escapes from Glory.
[> [> [> [> [>
different parallel -- anom, 21:40:29 03/06/03 Thu
It also brought to mind (mine, anyway) Angel's leap w/Cordelia
from the upper floor of Russell Winters' mansion.
[> Re: A Question of Faith
- Salvage (spoilers) -- maddog, 21:42:35 03/05/03 Wed
First off I loved the conversation Wes was having with Lilah.
It showed true emotion. You could see they really had a connection
whether Wes wanted to believe it or not. And the segue about who
is and isn't redeemable was a perfect lead in to Faith.
As for people playing their cards, I think Evil Cordy's getting
desperate...she's been using them all like puppets for so long
that she's forgotten what it's like to be behind the 8 ball. Now
she's got to pull out all the stops. Desperate people do amazing
things...I can't wait to see what she has up her sleeve next.
And I love her reaction to having Fatih back. Feeling threatened
anyone? :)
Faith's resolve never ceases to amaze me...cause she was beaten.
She should have been passed out. And yet she had the strength
to pull off that last stunt and keep Angel from doing any more
damage.
I like your commentary on this being Faith/Wes part 2. It actually
reminds me of the Buffy theme, back to the beginning. It feels
like they're giving them another chance. A chance they didn't
have to begin with because of one reason or another. And they've
both grown into their positions too.
I wonder if we'll hear the other half of that conversation on
Buffy at the end of the month. It would be nice for continuity's
sake...I won't hold my breath. :) And lastly, with the sun back
to normal you wonder what the crew will have to do if they can
get Angel his soul back soon. They've still got 9 episodes left.
And they don't even realy know of an apocolypse now that the Beast
is gone. Should be interesting.
[> [> About the Beast-
Salvage (spoilers) -- Dannyblue, 21:56:44 03/05/03 Wed
Well, they know the Beast was working for someone else. The Beast
might have been the Big Bad's big gun but, since they already
know the Big Bad is even more powerful than the Beast, they know
they ain't out of the woods yet.
[> [> Re: A Question
of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- Tyreseus, 00:29:57 03/06/03
Thu
I wonder if we'll hear the other half of that conversation
on Buffy at the end of the month. It would be nice for continuity's
sake...I won't hold my breath. :)
Dawn: Hello?
(pause)
Dawn: Yeah. Angel?
(pause)
Dawn: Oh, yeah, I think she's upstairs.
(phone clicks off, dialtone noise)
Dawn: Angel, are you there?
(Buffy and Spike enter)
Buffy: Was that Giles? On the phone?
Dawn: No, it was Angel. He asked about you, then just hung up.
Buffy: That's weird.
Dawn: Do you think something's up? I heard on the news that there's
no sun in LA. Should I call him back?
(Buffy looks at Spike. Spike lights a cigarette.)
Buffy: Nah. No time. Go get the girls, I need to give another
long speech on how we're not prepared for the first. I had another
dream. This time Faith told me we were losers and unprepared.
[> [> [> Re: A Question
of Faith - Salvage (spoilers) -- lunasea, 09:01:57 03/06/03
Thu
I think, for continuity, when they get the big call on BtVS about
what is going on Dawn will say something like "Angel called
a couple of weeks ago, but he hung up before I could get you.
He sounded really weird."
We won't get the other half, since BtVS won't be new for a few
episodes. It isn't going to be like "City of" and "The
Freshman."
[> [> [> Funny! :>
and frightenly possible -- WickedBuffy, 21:41:42 03/06/03
Thu
[> She had a good one with
Gunn, too (quotes from Salvage) -- Masq, 23:12:07 03/05/03
Wed
"I hear you're a good fighter."
"I hold my own."
"That's a shame."
Took me a minute, but then I had to smile.
[> [> Yup, lots of quoting
goodness (spoilers) -- Scroll, 23:39:07 03/05/03 Wed
I was in chat tonight and we kept going:
"need some release!"
"biker!"
"hold my own!"
"five by five!"
"Oh, crap!"
"threesome!"
"flying sluk!"
Hee hee!
[> [> [> Flying sluk
-- Masq, 06:16:14 03/06/03 Thu
OK, I was so tickled that Connor FINALLY made a reference to something
from Quortoth that I didn't get the uh, rhyming reference in that.
Hah!
Well, kudos for Fury. I might forgive him for mangling Angelus.
[> [> [> Re: Yup,
lots of quoting goodness (spoilers) -- maddog, 07:59:45
03/06/03 Thu
I have a question...is there any guy on these shows that she hasn't
had some sort of sexual tension with? I'm tempted to ask if there's
anyone at all with some of her comments to Buffy in the past and
Fred last night.
[> Part of Connor's Crush
-- lunasea, 07:35:59 03/06/03 Thu
Connor's crush comes from several things. Faith is hot. Faith
is commanding. Faith can kick his ass. Faith cares about his dad.
I think he actually likes that. He wants to care, but won't let
himself. Faith makes no apologies about how she feels about Angel.
By putting Angel over Connor, she gains his respect and he is
going to listen to her. It isn't so much that she *can* kick his
ass, but why. Faith is what Connor wants to be.
You left off one of the best lines, But are you a murderer.
I am.
[> [> Also, if a super-natural
human like Faith can be a hero. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:43:19
03/06/03 Thu
Connor may see some hope for himself to be something other than
the cursed spawn of vampires.
[> Re: A Question of Faith
- Salvage (spoilers) -- RichardX1,
13:30:06 03/06/03 Thu
>>What is a Slayer? Why are they always girls? What is a
Watcher, and what is his relationship with the Slayer? Why are
the Bringers contracting out to prison inmates to do their dirty
work?<<
((kicking myself for not recognizing the Bringers' knife))
But wouldn't you think the Bringers would want Faith alive and
confined, as she was? If they off her, one of the Not-ready-for-prime-time-Slayers
gets awakened, and now the First has two Slayers in town
to deal with.
[> [> Yeah, someone does't
plan too well -- Doug, 13:41:05 03/06/03 Thu
Right now Faith is confined, the FE should be going after the
Potentials, kill them and then go after Faith. That's how this
particular plan was attempted in the book "Pretty Maids all
in a Row", which incidentally is an excellent (if non-canonical)
book set in the Buffyverse during the Second World War, and dealing
with Spike and Dru.
But yeah, you'd think the First Evil would be a little smarter.
[> [> [> Re: Yeah,
someone does't plan too well -- Tess, 22:43:25 03/06/03
Thu
If the slayer line doesn't run through Buffy anymore than it would
seem to make more sense in killing Buffy and letting Faith stew
in jail until the FE is finished with all the potentials. And
if it does still run through Buffy than shouldn't there be three
active slayers? Unless of course the FE is doing an Adam and wanting
Buffy alive at the end to guarantee an outcome. And its sad cause
I can't wait to see what happens but I'm dreading it because once
I know it'll be no more Buffy.
[> [> hmm, who to kill
first... -- WickedBuffy, 21:50:32 03/06/03 Thu
Would The FE rather fight Faith or Amanda?
Knocking off Faith makes perfect sense to me! The SITs don't really
seem very threatening yet.
Imagination
or Manifestation? [Mild Spoilers] -- AgnosticSorcerer, 19:03:07
03/05/03 Wed
Was the Lilah-form Wesley was talking to in the basement really
a figment of his imagination or a manifestation of the First?
Perhaps Angelus' phonecall to Sunnydale supports the latter possibility?
[> Re: Imagination or Manifestation?
[Mild Spoilers] -- LadyStarlight, 19:56:00 03/05/03 Wed
I figured it was a toss-up between Wes' guilt talking or Lilah's
ghost somehow tied to her body, until Wes severed (literally!)
the tie.
Pseudo!Lilah sounded too gentle to be the First, imo.
[> No, I don't think so
(Salvage spoilers) -- Scroll, 20:04:42 03/05/03 Wed
The Lilah-manifestation touched Wes several times. Also if it
had been the FE, we should've seen it trying to manipulate Wes,
but instead all we got was Wes trying to come to terms with how
he couldn't save Lilah.
Eeewwwww...
(small spoiler for tonight's Angel) -- Revel, 19:07:54
03/05/03 Wed
Short:
"Give mama some sugar" *Smooch*
Ewww. Double-yuck and blind me now (figuratively speaking).
But nice plot twist.
-Revel (occasional poster)
[> Re: Eeewwwww... (more
spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- CW, 20:35:48 03/05/03
Wed
Her smooching with Connor later was almost as yuck worthy, IMO.
Gad Zooks, Cordy is pregnant. Who'd a thunk it? And all this time
we thought it was all those doughnuts she's been packing away
in the office over the years, or maybe that she was stealing bowling
balls from the lanes next to the hotel. ME sure put one over on
us this time???
[> [> Re: Eeewwwww...
(more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- Dannyblue, 23:36:29
03/05/03 Wed
I felt the "Ewwwwww." But I was supposed to, so it was
good "Ewwwww." I mean, I don't think ME wants us to
look at Cordy's interractions with Connor or the Beast and think,
"Aw, isn't that sweet." They want our flesh to crawl.
They want us to crinkle our noses in disgust and squirm in our
seats.
I think the point of E!C's interractions with the Beast was to
show that she had complete control over this creature all of AI
had been unable to defeat. In a way, she was very patronizing
towards this indestructable demon, treating it much the way we
now see she's treating Connor. The fact that the Beast let her
treat it that way, that it seemed almost honored by her attention,
is a testimant to her power and control.
Oh, and I do think it was a bad line. But I wouldn't be surprised
if it was bad on purpose.
[> [> Re: Eeewwwww...
(more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- Tess, 00:02:04 03/06/03
Thu
Not almost as yuck...more yuck.
[> [> Re: Eeewwwww...
(more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- Revel, 05:19:14
03/06/03 Thu
Like that music? Seemed quite like Hitchcock (or at least director
imitating Hitchcock) style music.
Now whose baby is it? Seems a bit quick for a "normal"
baby - how long ago *did* Connor and Cordy have sex?
Revel
[> [> [> Re: The timing
is off (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- Dannyblue, 05:42:20
03/06/03 Thu
In the continuity of the show, it can't have been more than a
few weeks, if even that, since Cordy and Connor had sex in "Rain
of Fire." There's no way she can be showing that much unless
the baby is (well, obviously) not normal. But I mean really, really
not normal. There are some possibilities.
1. The baby, being part human and part vampire, is just growing
super fast. But I can't see why it would, since Darla was pregnant
for 9 months. And, according to what we've seen, Connor is fully
human, just with vampy traits.
2. It's not Connor's child. It's the spawn of some evil creature
that has a super fast gestation time. That, or Cordy was impregnated
months ago.
3. Evil!Cordy is powerful enough to make herself show more, perhaps
to give her revelation to Connor more impact. She saw she was
loosing control of him, and had to reassert control as quickly
as possible.
Anyway, her "Give momma some sugar," makes sense if
she was referring to her pregnancy.
[> [> [> [> Re:
The timing is off (spoilers for 'Salvage') -- Peggin, 07:54:39
03/06/03 Thu
2. It's not Connor's child. It's the spawn of some evil creature
that has a super fast gestation time. That, or Cordy was impregnated
months ago.
I'm leaning to thinking it is the Beast's child, but the fact
is that, whether it is Connor's child or not, it is still "the
spawn of some evil creature". Remember, Cordy has been a
demon for over a year now. Maybe it is her own biology, and not
that of whoever the father is, that has accelerated the gestational
period.
[> [> [> Re: Eeewwwww...
(more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- maddog, 08:34:04
03/06/03 Thu
Well, if it's a demon baby then I wouldn't think time would have
meaning at all.
[> [> Re: Eeewwwww...
(more spoilers for tonight's Angel) -- maddog, 08:18:50
03/06/03 Thu
I thought she was creepier in that conversation with Connor than
in any other part of the episode. Cause instead of being overjoyed
she was a very calm, "we're pregnant".
[> Re: Eeewwwww... (small
spoiler for tonight's Angel) -- maddog, 08:08:05 03/06/03
Thu
True, good plot twist, but couldn't they have insinuated the kiss...that
was gross.
[> 'Give Mama some Chapstick'
-- WickedConception, 08:21:09 03/06/03 Thu
"Give mama some sugar" could have meant The Beast was
the dad (I doubt that, though) or that Cordy had spawned The Beast
and it was her actual offspring.
Even though Connor is aging at the regular rate of the dimension
he's in now, maybe his sperm ::koff:: is still growing at an incredibly
fast rate like he did in the other dimension.
Cordy does seem to be good at demon pregnancies - I think Evil
Cordy can do most anything with that body, including a fast pregnancy.
Or even a FAKE one!
(I bet it really chaffed Cordys lips. How many takes for that
scene, do you suppose?)
[> [> oops! Spoilers
for last nights Angel in my above post! -- WickedBuffy (my
bad), 08:23:45 03/06/03 Thu
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