March 2003 posts
Laughs and grumbles (Angel Odyssey 2.17-2.18)
-- Tchaikovsky, 04:11:19 03/04/03 Tue
Hmmmmm. I'm a little underwhelmed by the first two of these three,
but I'll try to stay away from too much moaning. I have to say
though that the biggest laugh I got out of 'Disharmony' was reading
the cityofangel.com ratings. Our gallant reviewer gave the 'Reprise'/'Epiphany'
duo 3.5 stakes out of 5, before bestowing 4.5 on 'Disharmony'.
The orange tastes sweet to him and sour to me, obviously.
2.17- 'Disharmony'
I have to confess an imperfect following of the self-imposed rules
of the Odyssey on this one, as it was the only episode I saw when
it aired in Britain. Therefore, I don't come to it completely
fresh, although I do have a completely different perspective of
the show than I did when I watched it that first time. Then I
considered it surface and not a patch on Buffy. This time round,
I actually don't think my opinion has changed that much- and I'm
extremely irritated by one of the little storylines.
Now, I'm not David Fury's biggest fan. I think he started off
pretty well as a solo writer with 'Helpless', 'Choices' and 'Fear,
Itself', and his contributions have been steadily worsening ever
since. My problem with his writing in general is that it is one-dimensional.
He is a very funny writer, and 'Disharmony' delivers a couple
of cracking one liners, (I loved: 'I think she should re-consider
the name 'Harmony''), and also set up some rather cliched sitcom
but nevertheless amusing situations, (like the Harmony/Cordelia
vampire-lesbian misunderstanding). But I also think that there's
not much going on underneath. With Jane Espenson, you can coast
happily along on the top level, and then realise that there is
some serious stuff underneath. With Fury, that happens much more
rarely.
I like the plot of this episode- it's well-conceived. The spin
where Cordelia believes Harmony is too sweet and stupid to be
a threat, and AI eventually believe her, is tidily done, with
some good acting by Mercedes McNab. But we should have knwon that
Harmony has pretty much always been a sheep. It's painfully obvious
when Cordelia and Harmony have their first conversation over wine
that she'd still like to hang off Queen C's every word. But Cordelia's
grown a long way from there. So eventually, when Harmony becomes
one of the cool gang of vampires, fitting right in, it makes good
sense. I also loved the motivational speaker.
But I am irritated by a few things. Firstly, the Willow crossover
seems a little pointless. But that's just a personal dislike for
crossovers in general. Most of my grumbling boils down to the
Angel plot-line in this episode.
You remember 'Grease'. I'm sure you all sang along like me to
the songs and the 50's retro. But I was really annoyed by the
ending. Sandy has to learn to be conventionally sexy in order
to get her guy. John Travolta is too cool to fall for the Sandy
that Olivia Newton-John represented in her earlier career. She
must change herself. And as soon as she conforms to society, she
is accepted. Other people may see this as empowering our female
lead; I find it a really annoying ending.
And Fury annoys me in a similar way with the Cordelia-Angel vibe
in this episode. We get the nicely written 'We're not friends'
scene, and the serious scene with Wesley, playing off the 'sorry
you got shot in the gut bouquet' line. But then Fury does two
things for laughs. Firstly, Wesley's 'she's going through a lot
of pain' line is subverted by Cordelia having a great time at
the end of the episode. And secondly, at the end, Angel wins back
Angel's love and affection by buying her clothes showing the good
taste of 'a gay man'.
Let me make one thing quite clear. I don't object to the trivialising
of Angel's re-integration per se [The 'atonement's a bitch' line
is one of the funniest in the episode]. What I do object to is
jarring discontinuity in message. To set up the residual anger
of Cordelia and Wesley at Angel's betrayal and acts of violence,
and then to knock them down for a good joke just undermines any
theme running through the episode. And this spoiled it irrevocably
for me, because again we're being told, due to the episode's narrative
structure- 'If you feel rightly guilty, appeal to your friend's
materialism, and it will all be better'. I repeat again- the joke
in itself is not the issue- it's the fact that it frames and undermines
the real thoughts of re-integration that Angel had, and thus suggests
that all the angst can be dispersed easily.
I'm afraid I just think it's another example of Fury being a funny
but thoughtless writer, with little feeling for the thematic nuances
of his episodes.
Couple of more upbeat points. There's the parallel between Angel
and Harmony, which is a little underplayed. They're both vampires
who have had nasty experiences, and are now trying to find themselves
a place where they belong. Harmony ends up making the wrong decision.
Angel has already made the right decision. But the fact that Cordelia
doesn't kill Harmony may be a less irritating suggestion of how
she is dealing with Angel. She has realised that Angel is too
valuable a friend to be thrown away, even more so now she's seen
yet another person in her life betraying her after she trusted
them (chalk Harmony up beside her parents, her other small-brained
friends and, of course, Xander). By not staking Harmony, Cordelia
decides that she can't let kill the remanant of her old friend,
which is an interestingly opposite echo to Buffy in 'Lie To Me',
where Buffy does leave her old friend to die, although admittedly
in extremely different circumstances.
Found this episode fun while I was bumbling along without my brain
engaged, and then got annoyed when I looked for deeper themes
and resonances. I'm afraid that's a repeating pattern for me with
Fury episodes.
2.18- 'Dead End'
This one (which at cityofangel got 4 stakes, LOL), didn't irk
me in the same way as 'Disharmony', but left me feeling a little
nonplussed by the whole malarkie. There were definitely some good
moments, and here are a few of them:
-Cordelia's visions. I like this developing story. There's an
interesting message about just how much pain a human can take.
ME is exploring how taxing being compassionate really is. It reminded
me strongly of 'Earshot', and again of 'Grave'. In 'Earshot',
Buffy can hear the pain of the whole community, and it's too much
for her to bear, even as a hero. It leads to one of the most enlightened
lines in Buffy, that eveyone is so busy dealing with their own
pain that they miss everyone elses'. For me this feeds in to Angel's
line in 'Epiphany', because, if you can overcome your own angst
and personal story for long enough to reach out to someone else
then it is an amazing thing. An dthus, 'the smallest act of kindness
is the greatest gift in the world'. Here we see how Cordelia's
visions have changed her. We've already seen how psychologically
Cordelia has matured in the past 18 months, but here we see it
taking a physical and mental toll- both the vision experience
itself, and the residual pain. It made me realise just how well-thought-out
these visions are. The fact that they are intensely painful is
because the physical pain is an analogue to the emotional pain.
In being truly empathic for a few seconds, Cordelia takes on their
emotions in a visceral as well as intellectual sense, rather like
Lorne being knocked out in 'Happy Anniversary' by the sheer importance
of the revelation in the physicist's mind.
-Lindsey is a great singer. Wow, that was good. And Angel believing
it wasn't was truly priceless. And written by David Greenwalt?
Also impressive.
-However, I think this is more one of Greenwalt's failed uses
of his characteristic scattershot writing technique. The stuff
doesn't quite all fit together as well as it could do. There are
some marvellous moments though, as in all Greenwalt episodes.
-One of these is Lindsey's reckless refusal to take the job he
is offered. It is interesting in that it is a very mature act
carried out in a very immature way. Lindsey plays the 'Insult
the board because it doesn't matter' game with a certain amount
of glee as well as releasing his anger.
-The immature outside and mature inside is also emphasised by
Angel's bickering with Lindsey throughout the episode, and the
eventual send off. In helping Lindsey through his own 'Epiphany',
(brought about by the pain of a friend), Angel is being outstandingly
mature and restrained to someone who has tried to kill him multiple
times. But it is expressed in a rather school-boyish way, particualrly
with the sign on the back of the car at the end.
-Tying the immaturity of the men in the episode with the indescribable
pain of the Visions, I wondered whether Greenwalt might even be
playing out a period-metaphor. Hey, it's just where my mind goes.
I'm sorry. I'll move on.
-Interesting that Nathan Reed's password is 'Zen'. There's a chilly
calm and collectedness about the higher echelons of Wolfram and
Hart that suggests something almost Zen-like- but in a rather
nastier way.
Slightly better than 'Disharmony', but certainly not a favourite
of mine for this Season.
I was going to balance these two with a rather positive review
of 'Belonging', but I have a lecture, so it will be here in a
couple of hours time.
TCH
[> Laughs and grumbles ctd
(Angel Odyssey 2.19) (sp 7.16) -- Tchaikovsky, 06:15:57
03/04/03 Tue
2.19- 'Belonging'
I feel I should mention, perhaps a little defensively, that I
haven't been the biggest of fans of Shawn Ryan so far. While perfectly
fine, I thought 'First Impressions' was one of the lower points
of a truly fantastic Season. But just to show that I wasn't dismissing
Fury a priori, I loved this episode despite of my initial reluctance.
There are plenty of really well-acted parts in this episode- perhaps
it is more of an ensemble piece than most of the other good episodes
this season, where Angel's (melo)drama has been the focus. Here
we get Cordelia and Wesley and Lorne and Gunn all with really
interesting things to do, and Angel's story actually playing in
the background to them, just as he has vowed to stay in the background
in AI, not be the leader. Of course, he's finding that hard, since
he slips into the natural role of figurehead rather well. He was
never a figurehead in Sunnydale, and part of the reason why he
was never completely integrated into the group may have been Giles
role as the first counsellor to Buffy. In LA, he has his own well-defined
niche, and to deliberately play out of it is a bit of a struggle.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little bit of re-negotiating
of roles before the end of the Season with Wesley and Angel.
Moments of wonderful clarity and/or pain in 'Belonging' included:
-The superlatively written and shockingly well performed scene
with Wesley on the 'phone to his Father. One of my favourite scenes
of the Season so far. While I have enjoyed watching Wesley as
a character, his role has too often slipped into emotion-less
utility figure like Giles in Sunnydale throughout this Season.
I want to see his character enriched further, a wish that has
been [arguably justifiably] scupperred for most of this season
by Angel's huge torment. This pain with his Father is just marvellously
done. After all his time away, he still craves validation.
-Cordelias's pain. The advert in which she acts shows how much
she's grown up. I don't think that Season Three Cordy would have
had any problem with jumping through the hoops required for fame.
Now, with more important issues in hand, she realises that to
judge someone on the bags under their eyes is superficial nonsense.
But again, we see amini-tragedy, because this has always been
Cordelia's dream- just to act. She says, despairingly: 'I just
wanted to show them I could act. That I was good.' Whether or
not this is a jab at Hollywood, acting as a whole, or just this
individual director, it cuts across Cordelia's journey wonderfully.
-Lorne in this episode, is very interesting. As I've pointed out
a few times already, Lorne often acts as the narrator and the
audience/writers' mouthpiece. Here he isn't like that at all,
because he ceases to be detached. Actually rather like Andrew
in 'Storyteller'. Due to the opening of the portal and the appearance
of his cousin, he is suddenly a character with a struggle, rather
than the detached laconic singer. And it's well acted with confused
restraint by Andy Hallett. Lorne would like not to care, but he
really does. He's just not comfortable with that crucial key word,
'Belonging'.
-Gunn has where he 'belongs' questioned as well. I don't want
to spend too much time here on his struggle, because his choice
of LA or the streets is yet to be resolved, but clearly he chose
one above the other and is now grieving for his choice. He may
not have been able to do anything about it, but that's not the
point. He could have tried, had he decided his loyalty the other
way.
All five characters have their belonging questioned, and it brings
confusion to them all. Is Angel really part of the human community-
as he makes a mess of the apparently convivial meal in the teaser?
Is Wesley still defined as the failed son, or is he something
more? Where does Gunn belong? Must Cordy turn her back on her
dream, to belong to the film industry. And, the most important
question of all, how does Lorne belong? A question which must
clearly be answered, as it appears Cordelia has ended up in his
native dimension.
There's the fun of the over-formal Deathwok clan member, who plays
off tidily as a satire on the Klingons in Star Trek, where honour
is everything, the fight is life, and art is not really important.
There are also some almost 'Holy Grail' moments as he spouts ridiculous
names. It was a little like the troll in 'Triangle'. The mentioning
of the esoteric Deathwok death rituals followed by the cut to
Gunn burning his friend's corpse was extremely powerful.
Very interesting stuff. I might finally mention how Angel seems
to love the idea of a black/white universe when Lorne explains
it. But maybe his look is a little more ambiguous. I would have
thought, considering his journey this Season, it should be not
just wishing he was there.
Liked this episode lots. Final three reviewed in next couple of
days. Preferably tomorrow so it doesn't get immediately swamped
by Well Known Casting Spoiler.
TCH
[> [> Yay! -- Rahael,
07:59:01 03/04/03 Tue
Of course I haven't watched these yet for a while, but I've been
counting on this to cheer me up during an irksome day.
And apparently I will be fed pancakes later, so there's a consolation,
and I'm off to read your reviews properly - more comments to follow.
[> [> And now Minear's
thoughts on episodes for comparison -- s'kat, 08:20:35
03/04/03 Tue
Continuing my tradition of including the commentary of Tim Minear
in these threads. For two reasons: 1. It keeps them alive a bit
longer (they are truly wonderful reads TCH) and 2)I like to see
what people think of how the writer saw the episode compared to
what came across on screen.
DISHARMONY
In Disharmony Cordy's old friend Harmony shows up in LA. Humourously,
Cordelia thinks she's a leabian but then discovers she's a vampire.
She tries to redeem her, but that proves impossible as Harmony
nearly betrays the group to a vampire cult.
"The ever-wonderful David Fury wrote that episode, and I
love Mercedes McNab, who plays Harmony," says Minear. "That
was one of the few episodes where we did get to do the metaphorm
which is my old high school friend shows up in town and we've
both changed. And she happens to have changed into a vampire.
I thought Charisma was hysterical in that episode."
But why does Cordelia resist the temptation to put a bolt through
Harmony's heart? "That's an interesting question," muses
Minear. "I think it's important for Cordelia to be put in
a situation where she ends up doing the same thing Angel did with
Darla, because she needs to gorgive him and this kind of puts
them on the same moral level to some extent. And also, I've seen
people express both love and hate for the ending where he buys
her clothes and she does her little happy clothes dance. It's
absolutely adorable, but some people feel that it cheapens the
emotion and cheapens Cordelia, because it's almost like she's
a clothes whore. The thing that they're missing is he gave away
her clothes. This was something he did without thinking about
her feelings. It's not just that she got some cool stuff at the
end, its that he was trying to make amends for something he did
by trying to repair a specific injury he had caused her. I think
it worked great. I think the key to that episode is when Cordelia
says to him at the beginning, 'We work together, we're not friends.'
Because that, in a sense, is what the next few episodes are about.
The clothes are a big step because they represent a personal gesture."
DEAD END
In "Dead End" Cordelia has a vision of a man stabbing
his own eye, which leads to Angel and Lindsey teaming up because
Lindsey's recently transplanted hand is acting oddly. The investigation
leads to a W&H organ bank in which body parts are being taken
from the living.
"The end of Lindsey," says Minear. "At least for
that season. Whenever you put Angel and Lindsey together, it's
interesting, and the idea of them working together certainly sparked
everybody's imagination. The idea that Angel had had this epiphany
and was more easy going would infuriate Lindsey all the more,
which just made it so much fun. They really have a great chemistry.
I thought Christian's evil hand speech was great. What I love
is you expect the story to be about, 'I can't control my evil
hand,' and that's not at all what it turns out to be. It fyou
see a thing that looks like an old cliché, hopefully we're
going to put a spin on it."
The episode seems to bring Lindsey's character arc to a close,
though Minear notes that it's possible we'll see the character's
return, though not in the capacity of a W&H lawyer. "Actually
he's a perfect fit for the show, because here's this morally ambiguous
guy who is seeking his own kind of redemption. So he fits right
into the universe."
BELONGING
In "Belonging" a vicious demon comes into our dimension
and wreaks havoc, but in stopping it Cordelia ends up transported
to another dimension with is actually the Host's home.
"When we were breaking that story, I wasn't all that interested
because there wasn't a strong A story," Minear offers. "Really,
the A story is that his thing comes through a portal and we have
to kill it. And, of course, we meet the Host's cousin, which was
pretty interesting. But when I saw the episode all put together,
I liked it a lot. I thought all of the little character bignettes
were great. I think what we were trying to do in those last few
episodes of the season was service characters that kind of didn't
get serviced through all of the Darla angst. We wanted to make
sure that we could bring this group back together in some form.
So, Belonging is really a mission statement for what the extended
coda of the season is going to be, which is Pylea. If you look
at Belonging, all of the little stories are tucked in there. For
instance, Cordelia is called princess by the director of the commercial,
but Angel says he treats her like a slave. So all those little
things are in there for each character. I think the first image
of Belonging is everyone sitting at a table in a fancy restaurant
and Angel's not among them, until we realize we're looking in
a mirror. He doesn't feel like he belongs with this group, and
of course his reflection's going to play a big role in the forthcoming
episodes."
The episode opens with Cordelia shooting a very sexy-looking commercial,
which has resonance within the storyline itself. "It's tricky,"
he says, "because we're making a staement, but at the same
time we could be accused of exploiting her the same way. But the
idea was always that she is being belittled and exploited here,
but in another place she's being revered and put on a throne,
and yet being exploited at the same time. It's sort of a double
comment on how society views women. However, I will say in our
defence that in two years and 44 episodes of this show, Charisma
Carpenter, the most beautiful woman who has walked the face of
the Earth, has not been exploited. If anything, we've exploited
the boys more than the girls."
These came from the UK magazine SFX VAmpire Collection Special
Edition out last spring. If you can find it?
It's really worth it. Love SFX, wish we had something comparable
for these shows in US but we don't, I checked.
SK
PS: Agree with TCH's comments above. I loved Lindsey in Dead End,
but found the general plot to be a bit hackneyed
and cliche in places, I don't think Minear & the writer succeeded
in subverting the cliche as much as they hoped.
Disharmony - while funny first time I saw it, bugged me in places,
it is revealing however in regards to how Angel views vampires
and souls and how Cordelia does. I'm thinking Cordy may have been
right here...but it remains unclear. It also had a bit of cliche
to it with the motivational speaker but I liked it well enough.
Would agree Fury's writing does occassionally seem to lack substantial
depth. I think he likes "shock value" and "crude
humor" over substance. OTOH - he has written some episodes
I've loved. CRUSH, Helpless, Fear Itself,
Awakenings, and Sleeper...so to each his own.
Belonging? It's grown on me. I actually like this episode better
in some ways than the three that follow it. For the reasons TCH
states above.
[> [> [> Here's his
thoughts on S2 Ats up to Blood Money -- s'kat, 08:29:04
03/04/03 Tue
Here's what Minear says about episodes up to Blood Money:
(First half of S2 Ats)
JUDGEMENT
Season two kicked off with "Judgement", in which one
of Cordelia's visions leads Angel to kill a demon that was actually
protecting an innocent woman and her unborn child. Now Angel has
to step in and protect them himself. While effective, the episode
didn't seem to on to the momentum that been established at the
end of year one.
"First episodes back are always difficult," says Minear.
"I think it's more or less a mission statement. It also happened
in year three, especially because we were moving to a new night.
But you want an audience to start the show off fresh and get what
the show is. I think it had all of the elements that were required.
It introduced everybody again and it demonstrated that this is
an action show with really, in many ways, a traditional action
hero lead, what his relationship was to the people around him.
It also dropped some hints as to the coming continuing story.
I thought it worked. I liked that Angel screwed up. We also felt
that ending the first season with 'Pinnocchio's going be a real
boy some day' [a prophecy told that Angel was destined to become
human], we had to complicate that, which is really the idea behind
that episode in terms of the series. Once it's been prophesised
that everything is going to work out, it sort of takes the tension
out of the story that you're telling. So what Angel learned in
that episode is that it was not about the prophecy, it's not about
the end of the tunnel, it's about the tunnel and the journey through
it. Nothing is assured, which is another thing we kept trying
to hit in the stories we told over the year. Something that appears
to be good news, could turn out to be terrible news. Somethting
that appeared to be bad news, could be something good."
"For me, it was the first time I got to direct anything in
a long time. I know I was not the director of that episode by
any stretch of the imagination, however we do a thing called second
unit where certain things may be dropped off the schedule for
time and sometimes things have to be reshot. So Joss and David
had me shott the second unit stuff of that episode, which was
a nice way for me to get my feet wet before I directed full episodes."
ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN
""Are You Now or Have You Ever Been?" moves back
to the 1950s as we meet Angel, who finds himself interacting with
the denizens of a hotel who are unwittingly giving a demon the
sustenance it needs to survive. In the present, Angel goes back
to the hotel to destroy the demon once and for all, and ends up
buying the building.
"That episode worked great for me," says Minear. "That
was the first time ever that somebody made an episode of something
I'd written that looked just like the thing in my head. Initially
we knew we wanted to do an origin sotry for the hotel, and the
intial thought was it would be a '40s episode. It was Joss who
said that it should be set in the '50s, because I had already
been toying with this idea of a paranoia demon. And the '50s -
duh! Paranoia!"
"It's full of everything that I love. It's got references
to practically every movie I love, to James Elroy, to LA Confidential,
Vertigo, Hitchcock. Some people sort of ragged on me about those
references, saying they were so reverential, but nothing got in
the way of the story. The fact that I named a character Judy didn't
necessarily have people say, 'Oh, Vertigo.' But it was an exciting
episode to make. I thought Herb Davis, our cinematographer, did
a beautiful job of photographing it. It really looks like a movie
and Dave Semel, who directed, really got the spirit of what I
intended in the script, which was a dream-like quality. His camera's
always moving; there are very long, extended takes with no dialogue."
Minear also loved the actor playing the demon:"I thought
the actor was outstanding. It was his choice to do this sort of
Southern fried accent. He really had a personality, and wasn't
just, 'I'm a guy in a mask.'"
The new headquarters for Team Angel began being discussed when
the writers sat down to consider the new season. Joined by the
Buffy writers, they began throwing around ideas. The was simple:
a cool place for Angel to end up after the explosion of the season
one finale that destroyed his office.
" We blew up that set because it was incredibly difficult
to shoot in," says Minear. "It was very small and confined
and ugly. So we wanted something that was big, that had some scope
to it, that was different. Actually it was Rebecca Kirshner, a
writer on Buffy, who suggested an abandoned old Hollywood hotel
and that just clicked with us. At the end of that episode, Wes
says, "You know better than anyone this is a house of evil,"
and Angel says, " Not anymore," because he's exorcised
the demon from this place. I think the hotel represents Angel
himself. If you take the scene at the end of the episode and appy
the conversation that Wes is having with Angel, I think the metaphor
is pretty clear. This is a place that has seen the worse side
of human action, and Angel is saying that that has changed. So
the hotel represents him, and the idea of coming into a place
that was once a house of evil and making it a force for good is
a metaphor for Angel on the show. And also just a really cool
place to shoot."
FIRST IMPRESSIONS
"First Impressions" focuses on a Cordelia/Gunn dynamic
as a frightening vision she has about him leads her to stick close
to him. Gunn, of course, isn't necessarily enthusiastic about
the company. Additionally, Angel begins having erotic dreams involving
Darla.
"I recently watched that again, and I think it works really
well," reckons Minear. " Of course the big reveal at
the end is that they're not just dreams; she's really sitting
on top of him. I also love all the Gunn/Cordelia interaction."
UNTOUCHED
In "Untouched" Angel comes to the aid of a woman endowed
with telekinetic abilities, who is being manipulated by Wolfram
& Hart. At the same time, he continues to experience a number
of erotic dreams involving Darla, the woman who turned him into
a vampire and who has been brought back to life by Wolfram & Hart.
" I remember when we were breaking the story," Minear
reflects, "Mere Smith, who wrote the episode, actually came
up with the idea that Bethany would throw her father out the window
and stop him right before he hit the ground. That was a defining
moment in the breaking of that story, which made everybody realize
what it was supposed to be. Joss came up with the idea that all
those windows would shatter because of her mind."
DEAR BOY
"Dear Boy" continues the Darla - heavy dreams, and the
audience is brought back in time to Angel's first encounter with
Drusilla, the woman he would torture before turning into a vampire.
Later, when Angel claims to have seen Darla walking the streets,
the rest of the team start to think that he's losing his mind.
"The big David Greenwalt epic 'Return of Darla to the Waking
World of Angel'," laughs Minear. "There's a moment in
that episode, during the flashback, where Drusilla's cowering
in the convent and Darla is saying, 'I thought you were going
to kill her.' Angel says, 'No, I decided to make her one of us,'
Darla says, 'She's insane,' and Angel responds, 'Yeah, eternal
torment. Am I learning?' There's a look on Darla's face that says,
'This guy's much worse than I am right now.' That's the whole
point of that. He's the student up until that point, and after
that he overtakes the teacher and becomes something that even
she can't quite grasp, which I think is interesting."
GUISE WILL BE GUISE
Angel seeks some emotional peace with a supposed mystical swami,
and while he's away Wes assumes his identity to protect a young
woman from threatening forces in "Guise Will Be Guise".
The swami turns out to be false, a plant placed by W&H. The
episode also features the introduction of Virginia, the character
that would become Wes' sometimes girlfriend.
"Jane Espenson wrote that episode and I wrote the swami scenes.
She had a very short timetable to write that episode, so I took
those scenes from her and Joss' edict was , 'Make it about something.'
When Joss saw the final cut of the episode, he thought the parts
could be funnier. If you're watching the episode, you'll notice
some of the dialogue is not happening on camera. There's stuff
being said when the camera is on another character, and that's
stuff Joss went through and added."
"During that episode David Boreanaz needed some time off,
which is why it was Angel-light," he adds. "We were
always going to do the story with Wes, but you want to put it
into a place where, scheduling-wise, it works for you and it worked
there. But we were afraid that since Angel was out of so much
of the A story, that we would feel like we were losing Angel out
of the episode. Joss wanted to make sure that the swami scenes
weren't just funny cutaways, but that it felt like it had some
weight to it. So the idea of Angel's inner demon and the struggle
and all that stuff, and how do people see you and are you what
people perceive you to be, worked thematically, I thought, with
everything that was going on with Wes."
DARLA
"Darla" serves as a major flashback episode exploring
the mutual pasts of Darla and Angel, and how they intersect with
Drusilla, Spike and The Master. In the present, Angel does everything
he can to free Darla from W&H, believing that she can still
be saved, particularly after discovering that she was restored
as a human rather than a vampire.
Minear served as both writer and director. "I told Joss that
I felt it was time to revisit the Darla sotry in a big way; that
now that we knew she was human, what did that mean? He felt that
that was right and I felt that we needed to see her as a human
before she was vampred and get some of her backstory. He thought
that was all well and good only that very night they were going
to do the same thing with Spike on Buffy! Then I said, 'Wait a
minute, why should we be afraid of that? We should do both. Those
stories would naturally intersect at some point. We could actually
make it a two-hour story. And it was Joss' idea that we could
see scenes happen on Angel that we had already seen on Buffy,
but shown from a different point of view."
"Keeping track of everything was incredibly easy. Doug Petrie
and I basically sat down with a whiteboard and sketched out a
timeline, starting with Darla: this is when she was turned; this
was when she met Angel; this was when she took him to the Master;
then they met Drusilla and then Spike. We had those years worked
out, so that by the time we got to that we knew there certain
places where all four of these characters would intersect. It
all culminates in China. Shooting those sequences was the funnest
night of my life. It's like 'Let's direct an episode. Can I have
a hundred rioting peasants and a town on fire, 'cause that would
be fun?' The crew did a great job, I thought."
One twist of dArla being human, Minear remembers, "That was
actually something we came up with between seasons. I remember
we were having lunch-it was David Greenwalt, Marti Noxon, me and
Joss Whedon - and somebody suggested, 'What if they brought her
back as human?' And Joss immediately liked that idea. It gave
you a place to go. Some of the fans didn't care for the Darla
arc and complained that it was Darla all year and was boring.
I disagree, and in fact in almost every episode she appeared,
something new happened. There was the big reveal, 'Oh, she's human,'
then there was the big reveal, 'Oh, she's dying,' and then, of
course, Drusilla walked in and now she's a vampire again. Do Darla
- not a static character for us last year."
In season two, Angel goes down a much darker path, and you get
the impression that his tasting of a bit of Kate's blood in this
episode played a role in that journey. "That was certainly
the idea, without hitting it over the head too much. You plant
those things in there and you hopte that it adds to the texture
without having a big scene where everybody sits down and discusses
it."
THE TRIAL
Angle literally puts his life and soul on the line when he attempts
to give the dying Darla another shot at life by participating
in a series of deadly otherworldly tests. Unfortunately, Darla
has already been given her second chance (by W&H). In the
end, Darla accepts the fact that she's dying and is willing to
accept Angel being with her until it's over. Then Lindsey appears
on the scene using a stun gun on Angel while Drusilla enters the
room and bites Darla.
Minear co-wrote this one with Doug Petrie. "The easiest thing
for me to write in that episode was the Shempire scene, where
Darla is in the bar trying to pick up the geeky vampire. It probably
took me as long to write that scene as it did for me to type it.
It was just incredibly easy. We actually had a lot of trouble
cutting that episode because we didn't feel that in the trial
portion the demon who gets cut in half was very scary. But Mark
Westmore, who cut that show, did a great job using all the best
bits. Then , of course, when Drusilla walks in at the end, it's
pretty startling. In fact, we went back and reshot her entrance.
We felt that in the original footage we shot it was too wide.
That very close, slow motion shot, which was her first appearing
into frame was actually a retake."
"Back at this lunch I had with Marti, Joss and David we came
up with the idea that she was going to be human. The moment that
I mentioned that idea, Joss immediately came up with that scene.
He said, ' Later in the season, Drusilla will walk in and revamp
her in frong of Angel.' We knew that was going to happen!"
REUNION
"Ruenion" has Angel desperately trying to locate Darla's
body before her vampire resurrection can take place so that he
can stake her, but Drusilla interferes, allowing the final transformation
to occur. From there, Dru and Darla go on a killing spree. Angel,
blaming himself for what's happened to Darla, seems to go off
the deep end, allowing the ladies to snack on a bunch of W&H lawyers
and then firing his staff.
"This was a breakfast meeting and not lunch," Minear
notes. "It was Joss, David Greenwalt and me, and we were
trying to figure out what would happen in episode ten. Joss asked,
'Can he just fire everybody? Can he just lock the lawyers in a
room with some vampires, let them chow down, and then fire everybody?'
We said, 'Yes, he really can.' It didn't surprise me, because
he's Joss and he always comes up with cool ideas."
One question about that episode is why Darla is so strong that
she seems to have no trouble kicking Angel's ass. "I think
it's because she's feral," he replies, " and he does
have two vampires fighting him. I believe if it had just been
Darla waking up there, he would have been successful. However,
the fact that Drusilla is coming after him with a shovel isn't
helping things. And then the moment when he's really caught off
guard is when she goes from vamp face back to human face and says
his name. That stops him for a second, which allows Dru to attack
him from behind."
Surprisingly, there was no concern within the writing staff over
Angel's indifference to the W&H lawyers being slaughtered. "We
never hesitated," he concurs. "He doesn't kill those
people. He certainly is complicit and aids what happens to them
by not only shutting the doors, but locking them. What's cool
about Angel is that we can do that. Sometimes there are two different
things at work in terms of whether or not he should take certain
steps. Your character might do a certain thing, but the actor
playing him may want to protect that image. David doesn't do that
to us. He happens to be the kind of actor who's game for anything.
He'll allow himself to look goofy; he'll allow himself to be beaten;
he'll allow himself to do dark and heroic things; and I think
for David it's more interesting to go to those places."
REDEFINITION
"Redefinition" has Angel training himself physically
and mentally for the battle to the death he's expecting to have
with Dru and Darla. At the same time, Cordelia, Wes and Gunn are
trying to cope with being fired, and decide to carry on the good
fight without Angel.
"I think the coolness of this episode is the fact that Angel
doesn't actually speak throughout the eniter show," Minear
points out. "there's a voiceover, but he never actually speaks
to another person in the episode. And his lighting of the ladies
on fire is very cool. It takes us to a place we've never gone,
as Darla tells us at the end when she says, 'Who was that?'"
Again taken from SFX VAMPIRE SPECIAL EDITION.
SK
[> [> [> [> Sorry
for the typos... -- sk, 08:31:11 03/04/03 Tue
[> [> [> End of season
2 spoilers in this post, TCH -- Masq, 09:12:19 03/04/03
Tue
[> [> [> Went into
sneaky reading mode here -- Tchaikovsky, 09:24:13 03/04/03
Tue
Tried to skate over that bit at the end of 'Belonging', on Masq's
advice. I'm amused that I get the first say, and then Minear gets
the comeback! I strongly disagree with his justification of the
end of 'Disharmony', but I'll let the point rest now.
Thanks shadowkat, these transcripts are fascinating.
TCH
[> [> [> [> Re:
Went into sneaky reading mode here -- s'kat, 09:31:37 03/04/03
Tue
It was really really mild, nothing you couldn't figure out on
your own from watching Belonging. I double-checked. ;-)
Yeah - his justification didn't work for me either. Tended to
agree with your view. But it is fascinating to see what his take
was.
Buffy's Dark
Night of the Soul of Season 6 -- lunasea, 05:51:38 03/04/03
Tue
I posted the conclusion to this a couple of weeks ago and said
that I had an episode by episode analysis that I would post later
when Buffy was on break. Hope people enjoy this. It could use
some serious polishing. I will put up two episodes a day, so as
not to overwhelm things. The whole this is already written. I
have a pretty good link that describes the Dark Night of the Soul,
if anyone wants.
How the hell did Joss and friends, especially Jane Espenson, write
that? It usually isn't addressed. Angel is the hero's journey.
He goes into the bowels of hell and comes back smarter and makes
the world a better place. For him, Reprise is followed by Ephiphany.
Not so with Buffy. She enters the Dark Night of the Soul.
It is set up S5, with "Intervention." In it, she appeals
to a higher consciousness. Buffy concentrates on the second part
of the message, the gift, death, and misses what I see as the
important part.
You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's brighter
than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.
When I heard this, I thought of the Phoenix. What Buffy needs
to do in order to be reborn, in order to die, is to jump into
the fire. In "The Gift," the scene contains many symbols
from the myth of the Phoenix. The portal even looks a bit like
a nest on fire. When Buffy dives into the portal, she looks like
a bird (it isn't called a Swan dive for nothing). The sun, the
leap off a man-made cliff, all symbols associated with the myth.
The death of Buffy/the Phoenix is a Gift because it causes her
to be reborn, even better than before. Then they bring her back
S6 and she isn't better. She isn't reborn. Why?
That is where Buffy's Dark Night of the Soul comes in. Watching
"After Life" this time around was different. Something
happpened to me this September. I found heaven. I woke up from
a nap one day and there is was. It was just like Buffy described
it.
I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time
... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still
me, you know? (glances at him, then away) And I was warm ... and
I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand
about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but
I think I was in heaven.
It is what Zen calls "Big Mind." It was an amazing experience,
but I couldn't stay there. Why is the same reason Buffy says "I
was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends." My
connections to them demands "Small Mind." Once I started
seeing them, giving them form, I had form. My family, my beautiful
daughters, my husband, that is what kept me from being able to
maintain Big Mind/heaven.
When I came back, it was just like Buffy described,
Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything
I feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through
the next moment, and the one after that ... knowing what I've
lost...
In Afterlife, it is interesting that Buffy is fighting a demon
without form. That is what she wants to return to. Her small mind
world with form has to fight the big mind formless.
Then we move onto Flooded. Finances, the hallmark of the world
of form. God is it painful to have to deal with these. They don't
matter. Just "pieces of paper sent by bureaucrats that we've
never even met. It's not like it's the end of the world."
It is so hard to have to deal with things that really don't matter.
It is hard enough to deal with people that sort of do matter.
The conversation between Willow and Buffy when Buffy gets mad,
Hubby and I have had that one, more than once. These shows hit
him hard too, but from the other side of it. We had a great talk
last night.
Then there is the conversation between Giles and Buffy. It is
easier to tell people about being afraid of waking up in a box
or recovering from Hell, than it is to describe what is really
going on. I didn't even know myself. I just wasn't happy. I didn't
know why.
Then we get another Spike discussion. Vampires are our shadows.
Buffy isn't having these talks with another person, she is having
them with herself, trying to puzzle things out. As Spike says
"that's when you are alone."
BUFFY: I guess. Everyone ... they all care. They all care so much,
it ... makes it all harder.
SPIKE: I'm not sure I followed you around that bend, luv.
BUFFY: I don't know. I just, I feel like I'm spending all of my
time trying to be okay, so they don't worry. It's exhausting.
And then, I...
She trails off, makes a frustrated gesture and then clenches her
hand into a fist.
SPIKE: And that makes 'em worry even more.
How to get out of this viscious circle? It is so hard. You came
back because of them and they are making it harder. If they would
stop looking at you, seeing if you are ok, hoping you are ok,
then you wouldn't have to pretend to be ok.
You aren't the standard not-ok. How do you describe what you are
going through (showing them S6 does wonders for that)? You don't
even know yourself.
I am just going to go show by show and give my experience to maybe
shed a little light on what I felt like Buffy wass going through,
if people are interested. Thing with S6 is there is no revelation
that comes to really end it. It isn't like the descent to hell
that the hero's journey is built on. I think that is why people
had problems with it. There didn't seem to be a point to the misery.
That is the point, though.
[> Re: Buffy's Dark Night
of the Soul of Season 6 -- MsGiles, 07:27:55 03/04/03 Tue
I really look forward to reading the rest of this, and forgive
me for reacting early, but meantime what came into my head, from
ages ago, was Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
I remember him as a deep-thinking (obsessive perhaps) guy who
eventually philosophised his way to Big Mind and was hit hard
by the world he lived in (ECT and the lot). We live in a hard
world to be enlightened in.
It seems to be online at http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~ciochett/lit/zen.html
Somewhat OT
The Shield -- 7, 04:58:17 03/05/03 Wed
Sorry to go off topic, but i was just wandering if any of the
other posters watched FX's The Shield?
The show is essentially a cop drama in league with shows like
NYPD Blue but with some Soparanos thrown in for good measure.
Of more interest, however, is the formula that i have seen. I
admit that i have not seen much of season 1 but season two has
what i would call a "Big Bad" in it. The character of
Amadio is the chief rival for rouge cop Vic Mackey and is the
ultimate bad guy that Vic is trying to catch even if single episodes
revolve around catching someone else._
Also similar is the fact that the audience knows (even if they
don't want to) that much of what Mackey is doing is the right
thing even if it is considered corrupt. This is similar to Buffy
in that she does not follow the "rules" set out for
her by the council or otherwise and she is constantly going against
the mold to do the right thing.
With Buffy leaving this summer and Angel up in the air, i feel
that The Shield is my only hope that television has a future.
So i suppose i'm giving the show my recommendation to you posters.
Also, while i'm off topic, does anyone know of a forum like this
that cators to X-Men or comics in general? I love being philosophical
about Buffy, but i do (somehow) have other interests and comix
are one of them. If anyone can help, i'd appreciate it.
[> Staying OT, Shield (& Miracles,
& Six Feet Under potshot) -- Darby, 05:53:43 03/05/03 Wed
I also would put it among the best tv out there, but this week's
episode was twisting the continuity beyond all reason, even if
it can technically fit into what's been established (although
the twisting was not as badly done as Six Feet Under, which
I may not trust at all again). The show we've seen since the beginning
gave us characters who didn't all drop from the sky on the same
day, but that's essentially what the "flashback" episode
did, with the biggest problem being the rookie cop, whose presence
restricted how much time could have passed between the flashback
and the first series episode - not enough to set the series' dynamic,
I feel.
Incidentally, the show isn't for everybody. Sara watches it, but
feels that the "...may not be suitable..." warning at
the beginning should mention her by name.
David Greenwalt's Miracles (so there is a BtVS connection
here after all) was pretty good this week, as a spooky mystery,
but I have a bad feeling for the mythology they're building. Backstories
that underlie a show's ongoing premise rarely hold up well over
time - what sounds good in a pitch meeting gets tedious over time,
especially if it's something that can't really get resolved. It
bogged down The X-Files, made The Pretender too
one-note, was discarded quickly on Star Trek (5-year mission
of exploration?), and looks to be a bad direction for John
Doe. Even the "growing up" vector of BtVS, some
might say, has not served it well (I'm on the fence about this).
Season-long arcs are the way to go, then on to something new!
[> [> Am I the only person
in America who thought that Six Feet Under was terrific? (spoilers
for SFU) -- Caroline, 07:00:04 03/05/03 Wed
I loved how the show was structured. The initial sequence was
actually a tour through all the possible realities that Nate could
have had, including the one where his mother didn't get pregnant
with him so young and all the sibs did not exist. These realities
were each referred to later in the show - I thought it was really
well-structured. I even believed the Lisa/Nate marriage - I know
from experience how when someone is faced with their own mortality
that they can make changes in their life that seem mystifying.
Although the caveat here is that I have a sneaking suspicion that
Nate is more in love with his daughter, the idea of a family and
his immortality through procreation but that's another issue!
But everyone else I've talked with about this had huge problems
with the Nate storyline and left dissatisfied. Well, I always
been contrary I guess.
[> [> [> I liked it
but... (spoilers for SFU and Shield) -- Darby, 07:28:40
03/05/03 Wed
My feeling is that if you are going to leap forward in time and
majorly change directions between seasons, you don't start the
new episode with a sequence of "what if" vignettes.
I couldn't shake the feeling that the "story" was just
an extended one of those, and we'll eventually wind up back in
the recovery room with Nate. I continued to like the characters,
or at least be interested in them, and at some point I realized
that this is supposed to be the "real" storyline,
but I had lost my investment in it and don't know how long it's
going to take to get that back.
I had a similar reaction but to a different extent for The
Shield. It just seemed wrong that Mackey's strike team and
the Captain started on the same day, and that Vic had gotten as
corrupt as he was at the series beginning in such a short time,
all under the Captain's watch. It's not impossible, but it's a
paradigm switch that seems to fundamentally change implications
from the show's premiere. I can appreciate the irony that the
Captain essentially pushed Vic down the dark road, but it didn't
play right. In the premiere, Vic was portrayed as established,
comfortable, respected by the other long-timers if not completely
trusted, and the Captain very much seemed "the new guy"
to everybody but the rookie and the strike team plant. The flashback
didn't negate that, but it did undermine it. And it bothered Sara
even more than it did me, so I know it's not just my obsessive
nature at work.
[> [> [> [> Re:
I liked it but... (spoilers for SFU and Shield) -- maddog,
07:44:46 03/05/03 Wed
See I didn't see Mackey's getting corrupt that quickly. First
off, the back in time theory showed us that he'd never done anything
that bad before. Maybe rough up a few possible crooks but nothing
serious (and am I the only one that found him justified in dragging
that guy under the fence...scratches or not? I mean, he did keep
running when Mackey told him to stop. Hell, Mackey had rights
to shoot the guy, but I digress....). Then you can see how he
doesn't want to break the rules but feels pressured to get a conclusion
to his case. And I agree, it did seem in the premiere exactly
how you said but to me that fits what we saw last night. Vic's
the good guy who gets stuff done and because Amadio's in the dark
about it for now, he still isn't really in the game.
[> [> [> I like it!
(I think) I like it! (I think) I liked it! (6FU spoilerish)
-- WickedBuffy (USA), 10:41:03 03/05/03 Wed
I've watched SFU since it started. Really liked it until the last
couple shows last season. Then, my hopes rose again watching the
initial "what if" scenes. Watching the rest of the show,
I thought it was going to turn out to be one big fake-out and
he'd wake up in the hospital, just coming out of surgery.
Well, he didn't and the show felt more like a bad soap opera to
me than what I was expecting. (Maybe my expectations grew too
much over the show haitus, though.) Anyway - I'll watch it a few
more times to see.
Meanwhile, I'm going to try to catch up on the last couple "Queer
as Folk" episodes I missed to see how that one fares.
Good thing Ive gotten hooked on "Smallville" lately.
plus, one thing I need to say:
::My name is WickedBuffy and I am a reality show addict::
[> [> Re: Staying OT,
Shield (& Miracles, & Six Feet Under potshot) -- CW, 07:03:48
03/05/03 Wed
I agree completely about series-long backstories. Themes and characters
carrying over from season to season are fine, but keeping the
same episode-to-episode driving motivation does get tiresome.
Have to say I liked John Doe everytime I watched it. But, I noticed
with each succeeding episode I was paying less and less attention.
I quit watching it, before Firefly expired because it was turning
into Muzak. It would have made a fantastic half-year story arc,
but at some point you have ask why the guy doesn't just get on
with his life.
I'm already a little antsy about Miracles. X-files lost my interest
early on because they spent too much time covering the same ground
over and over. The last Miralces episode was a little better than
usual as Darby says, but the dirrection the story arc went in
the ep. was so predictable, that it was hardly a step forward
at all.
[> [> [> Problem with
back-stories in episodic series -- s'kat, 09:42:03 03/05/03
Wed
Have to say I agree with CW and Darby here.
I agree completely about series-long backstories. Themes and
characters carrying over from season to season are fine, but keeping
the same episode-to-episode driving motivation does get tiresome.
Have to say I liked John Doe everytime I watched it. But, I noticed
with each succeeding episode I was paying less and less attention.
I quit watching it, before Firefly expired because it was turning
into Muzak. It would have made a fantastic half-year story arc,
but at some point you have ask why the guy doesn't just get on
with his life.
I'm already a little antsy about Miracles. X-files lost my interest
early on because they spent too much time covering the same ground
over and over. The last Miralces episode was a little better than
usual as Darby says, but the dirrection the story arc went in
the ep. was so predictable, that it was hardly a step forward
at all.
Yep had exactly the same problems. Always wondered why I struggle
with these type of shows - the ones that have maybe two-three
recurring characters and each week they solve a new mystery and
meet someone new, while there's this thing lurking in their own
past that is their whole motivating factor and remains unresolved
until the show ends.
The visual narrative structure of the lead character solving others
problems while attempting to solve his own long-standing one dates
back to THE FUGITIVE with David Janessan playing Dr. Kimble.(sp?)
Which unlike the movie - where Harrison Ford finds the one-armed
man and everything is wrapped up in 2 hours, Dr. Kimble spends
I believe five years just missing the one-armed man, while his
pursuer spends five years just missing Dr. Kimble. Until the series
ends with a two-hour ratings grabbing finale that up until the
whole Who Shot JR
business, was the ratings king. (We can blame the ratings grabbing
finale of The Fugitive for the continuation of this annoying gimmick
in other series. Or I should I say what I consider an annoying
gimmick.)
Lots of people seem to like this type of narrative structure,
it grates on my nerves because I've discovered most series never
really wrap up the back-story. We never find out the secret or
by the time we do, the back story has either become so convoluted
or irrational that it no longer seems to matter.
Or it's just anti-climatic.
I don't mind being kept in suspense - as long as I know there
will be a pay-off eventually. What I don't like is the back-story
being used as a gimmick to keep me tuned in until the series is
cancelled. (ie. You'll never find out about this until we cancel
the show, because once it is resolved or answered - the show ends.
Evil laughter from creators and network execs. Ugh!)
HEre's a list of other series that seem to get off on doing this:
Quantum Leap did it with Sam the leaper, trying desperately to
get home. After a while the fact he could never get there, distracted
me from the stories being presented.
The Pretender - same set up as The Fugitive. Main character hunts
his parents while on the run from secret government agency that
is pursuing him.
John Doe - man solves impossible crimes while trying to figure
out who he is.
X-Files - the whole mystery behind Mulder and the conspiracy over
his sister - this one got so convoluted by the end of the series
that even devoted fans couldn't make heads or tails of it.
And now Miracles - where the lead character is haunted by his
father not claiming him and the fact that he has the visions.
(Although I'm on the fence on whether this is a true gimmick like
the others - since I missed the last two episodes and only caught
the first episode and this week's.)
Now I thought for a while this was the route they were heading
with Angel - ie. The vampire with a soul getting redeemed task
by task until he gets his final reward = redemption. I stopped
watching it for a while because, I hate that structure. Then sometime
around S2 with Epiphany, realized that the writers had dropped
that approach and were heading forward with a more season long
arc approach.
Angel may never become human, he may never get that gold star,
it is irrelevant to what we are doing here. Angel in this sense
became more like Xena which also veered away from the whole -
I'm searching for this one thing and when it happens we conclude
concept.
Law & Order is an example of a show with just five characters,
episodic, but does not have this whole unresolved back story...hence
the reason it can continue forever without the audience becoming
annoyed by the lack of resolution and giving up on it.
It's not that I mind the back story, it's just when it remains
unresolved throughout the series, the characters remain stagnated,
stuck in the back-story, they never really move forward, they
stay (for want of a better word) constipated.
Btvs did a good job of not doing that. It's characters move forward.
They've changed, grown (well most of them, on the fence with Anya,
who is acting way too much like S4 Anya at the moment.) A Growing
UP theme at least allows for character growth. The...I'M Searching
for This Puzzel Piece but Can't Find it Until the Series Ends
view tends to keep us all in stasis and it's a horrible thing
to do to your audience - make your audience wish for an ending
to the series just so they can see the resolution. We gain the
resolution but lose the characters. No reward. Or in the case
of some series - which get cancelled before we see a resolution
(Now and Again comes to mind) we are left with neither the characters
nor the resolution. This in my humble opinion is reason enough
to not invest any time in the show to begin with. Note to television
show creators, alienate your audience at your own risk...they
don't have to watch.
SK
[> [> Re: Staying OT,
Shield (& Miracles, & Six Feet Under potshot) -- maddog, 07:25:07
03/05/03 Wed
I disagree on Pretender. I think it adds to the current mystery
by giving us so much backstory..it also adss to the dynamic between
the characters(especially Jared's connections to both Sidney and
Ms Parker). I never saw the show during it's initial run. I'm
watching the repeats on TNT now.
[> [> [> Daily versus
weekly -- Darby, 07:32:34 03/05/03 Wed
I wonder if the pace of daily reruns doesn't support these long
arcs better - originally, it was years of dribs and drabs of core
story, strung out over gaps like modern primetime gives us, until
it seemed like everything was moving at a snail's pace.
[> Maybe not so OT - The
Shield's Buffy connection -- Rahael, 07:09:57 03/05/03
Wed
Or to be exact, Angel Connection. I believe that Shawn Ryan, who
was a writer for AtS created/writes for The Shield. There are
some very similar themes in 'The Thin Dead Line'
[> Re: Somewhat OT The Shield
-- maddog, 07:15:42 03/05/03 Wed
I don't see how there could be a Big Bad on this show. Amadio's
a pain in the ass, sure, but he's trying to keep everything by
the letter of the law. Partly because that's his belief in how
the job should be done...and part because they've got civilian
auiditors around paying close attention. So for Mackey he's an
obstacle. But Mackey's no saint either. He plants evidence, he
makes money off the crooks with drugs, etc. I can't consider him
the hero. I know he's supposed to be but it's hard. Of course,
as you said, he's also the nice guy at heart kind too that hates
battered women, fights for his family, etc. Yeah, it's a tough
call...tends to be a very good show. They get away with a lot
more than the average show in what they do and say as well.
[> [> Re: Somewhat OT
The Shield -- Seven, 08:20:26 03/05/03 Wed
"Macky's no saint either"
Well, that's the whole dynamic to the show. JMHO, but i feel that
he is doing the right thing most of the time. He did kill a cop
and does take money that doesn't belong to him, but the only real
thing that has tarnished him is the fact that he killed a cop.
All his other actions can be rationalized.
He is getting the bad guys
he's a cop who makes all kinds of arrests but still doesn't make
enough money to care for his autistic kid.
the list can go on.
I love the show. Episode two was by far the best. the tention
was incredible.
oh, yeah, you are right. Amadio was just an obsticle, but he can
be compared to Spike is season 2. He was originally made out to
be the BB, but that turned out to be Angel by the end of the show.
So now, who is the BB? It's tougher to say in this show, cause
in a way Macky himself is his own worst enemy.
Shit (pardon the french), but i freakin love this show.
7
[> [> [> Re: Somewhat
OT The Shield -- maddog, 09:13:02 03/05/03 Wed
I guess how good or bad Mackey is is dependent on how you feel
about law enforcement. How far do you go to get the bad guys?
Is framing them ok in your moral standards? Is taking money from
drug sales ok with you? These are things he does on a daily basis.
Is he well paid? no. But he knows this and still sticks with the
job. Hell, if he's as good as we all know he is then why isn't
he asking for a raise? I don't think there is a big bad on this
show because every week someone else steps up as an obstacle.
OT thoughts
re 'Adaptation' (spoilers for film) -- KdS, 14:01:18 03/04/03
Tue
Just saw Adaptation in the cinema and really enjoyed it
- I hated Being John Malkovitch due to the complete lack
of any human sympathy for the characters in the script or direction,
but Adaptation transcended this by being so obviously a
philosophical piece that it didn't matter.
One thing got me in the mood to show a little ME-love. The film
ends with a parody of the violent denoument of every bad noir
movie you've ever seen. At the end, the protagonist's brother
has been killed in circumstances that were on several levels his
(the protagonist's) fault, yet there's no sign of grieving, just
the usual thing of "Oh, this chapter in my life's ended,
let's move on to the next." It made me realise again just
how much I admire ME for being more upfront about the costs of
violent heroism than many action films, TV series, and books,
on both the fantastic and the naturalistic settings. Hope this
was worth a post.
ANGEL S1:
Arcless? (Plus a question) -- Gyrus, 14:36:11 03/04/03
Tue
I've been watching my AtS S1 DVDs (eps I haven't seen since they
were first broadcast) and realizing that there seems to be almost
no story arc over the course of the first season. It's established
early on that W&H are the bad guys, and they pop up here and there
throughout the season, but their story doesn't really begin until
the last couple of episodes. There's also the development of the
Angel/Kate relationship, but apart from that, almost every episode
is either a stand-alone or a crossover with BTVS.
I'm wondering if this is partly because of the departure of Glenn
Quinn from the cast, necessitating a quick build-up of both his
character (before and during "Hero") and a similarly
rapid development of Wesley afterwards. I've heard here and there
that Doyle was originally supposed to die in the last ep of the
season, but GQ left the show earlier for some reason.
Does anybody know what really happened?
[> Re: ANGEL S1: Arcless?
(Plus a question) -- Dan The Man, 14:52:36 03/04/03 Tue
Its arcless, because originally, Greenwalt wanted Angel the Series
to be an anthology show. Whedon and Greenwalt changed their mind
late in the first season and made the show more arc centric.
Dan The Man
[> [> Re: ANGEL S1: Arcless?
(Plus a question) -- Dannyblue, 15:06:23 03/04/03 Tue
ANGEL was originally supposed to be more like the typical private
eye show. Every episode would be case-of-the-week or monster-of-the-week.
And, every few eps, AI would have some hot female client who flirted
with Angel for an hour while he tried to help her. In fact, if
you notice in that first season, AI didn't really have any male
clients. Also, the story wasn't going to focus as much on character
development, drama, emotional conflict. It was supposed to be
much more action-oriented.
I actually loved the first season, and wouldn't mind a few more
MotW stories now. But I find the arcs much more compelling.
[> [> [> One small
quibble -- Scroll, 15:21:33 03/04/03 Tue
I agree with everything you said except...
Also, the story wasn't going to focus as much on character
development, drama, emotional conflict. It was supposed to be
much more action-oriented.
I think character development, drama, and emotional conflict was
very much an integral part of Angel long before it became
arc-driven. Just because it was MotW didn't mean the characters
didn't grow. In fact, I would say that sometimes the arc nature
sometimes forces character development into the background, while
the episodic nature allowed more moments of character growth.
[> [> [> What I miss
-- lunasea, 15:22:43 03/04/03 Tue
I liked seeing Angel go undercover. With that first shot of Angel
pretending to be drunk it was great. Angelus used to manipulate
people to cause them pain. I liked that Angel kept this trait
of being able to manipulate people and blend in places, but he
used it for good. Even though he could read people to manipulate
them, he couldn't relate.
I like the arcs, but I would like to see more detective and less
batman in those arcs.
[> Regarding GQ -- PepTech,
15:54:58 03/04/03 Tue
Around the time of his death, I heard that there were rumors that
substance abuse of some kind or another had something to do with
his departure from the show; hence it was kinda hurried. I have
no idea if there was any truth to those rumors, or, if there were
any truth, what the substance might have been.
I've also read numerous interviews with the creators that corroborate
the arcless plan for the show, which was scrapped with the development
of the whole Darla thing. I liked the old mysterious W&H,
myself - they were kind of fun, especially when they weeded themselves
out from time to time.
Does anyone with commentary access to AtS:S1 have any info that
touches on Quinn? The tragedy of his death probably means no one
will speak ill of him, at least for some time; whether that's
proper or not is for wiser people than I to decide. Seems to me
the truth is always good, however painful.
For Anneth:
If Joss Wrote LotR -- HonorH, 16:59:58 03/04/03 Tue
Voynak the Impeder ate that thread before I could finish posting
this. This is myself, Tanja Kinkel (Germany), Kathy Hunter (England),
and several ATP posters:
(Warning: some fairly squickalicious pairings ahead):
--Eowyn and Aragorn would have a pre or post-battle one night
stand which they'd regret immediately (Aragorn because it meant
cheating on Arwen, Eowyn because it showed her Aragorn doesn't
really love her) and which would wreck the A/A relationship
--Saruman's idea of getting at the Fellowship would involve letting
Sam find Rosie's dead body, appropriately decorated
--Frodo and Gollum would have a dark sexual relationship, and
it would be open to debate whether Gollum bit the finger off to
get the ring or whether he committed suicide deliberately to get
his soul, err, save Frodo
--Legolas would go nuts on bad magic after Helm's Deep, and Gimli
would be forced to talk him back to sanity
--Boromir would try to seduce Arwen out of resentment toward Aragorn
--Midway through the journey, the One Ring would turn into Frodo's
little sister because some monks thought it could be used for
good
--Gandalf would be depressed after his resurrection, leading to
an ill-advised relationship with Saruman
--Arwen tells Aragorn that he must find a nice normal human girl
and lead a normal life and she goes off to fight Evil in Valinor
where she teams up with Frodo.
--Gandalf and Galadriel, under the influence of evil lembas, do
it twice on the hull of an elven boat. They vow never to speak
of it again.
--Aragorn goes off to start his own series on the Sylmaril channel
--At least one, possibly more, of the orcs must convert from the
side of darkness to good.
--After Bilbo freaks out about the ring in Rivendell, Frodo would
ask why he was "all gollumy and big-eye-ish"
--More gratutious shots of Aragorn, Legolas and Boromir without
their shirts on
--In the halls of Moria, the fellowship would inexplicably burst
into song, and Galdalf would be forced to reveal his knowledge
that he would 'die' before they escaped
--We learn that previously on LotR Glorfindel has aquired magical
and martial prowess so profound that he could reduce all nine
Nazgul into bonemeal without breaking sweat but is fearful of
the human cost of his intervention. We do however get to see Glorfindel
on camera although he is notoriously close-lipped about his private
life.
--Lurtz and two other Uruk-Hai, Andrutz and Jonathrutz are nerd-talking
all the time, and, of course, there's a homo-erotic-tension-thing
going on between Lurtz Andrutz. Also, Lurtz would get flayed alive
by Evil!Sam for killing Boromir.
--Aragorn leaves Arwen at the altar in fear of becoming his abusing
father. Arwen goes back to being a vengeance...uhm, -elf.
--Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin combine to build the Uber-Hobbit
for their battle with a human-robot-ringwraith Denethor was secretly
working on before being killed by it. "You could never hope
to grasp the source of our power. But yours is right here."
the Uber-Hobbit says as it rips out "Boromir II"'s evil
Mithril-core. They are later haunted in their dreams by the "First
Hobbit" whom they have disturbed with their ritual. The "First
Hobbit" is easily defeated however, because, well, it's a
hobbit...
--Shelob would be killed with one well timed axe throw.
--Barad-dur would actually be a maze of tunnels, not a tower.
--Ents would be described as all "rootsy and woodsy"
--Cool bands would do cameos in the main hall of either Rivendell
or Meduseld.
--Galadrial would boink Frodo (or Gimli) before leaving Lothlorien,
just so that "he could feel something real"
--Everytime a character broke into a lengthy elvish lament about
the War of the Silmarils, their destiny would be revealed.
--Sauron, lieutant of Morgoth, corruptor of Numenor, and The Lidless
Eye would be referred to by one and all as "The Big Bad"
--Merry turns out to be a werewolf, although he tries to repress
it for most of the time -- until the battle with the Captain of
the Ringwraiths when he lets rip after seeing Eomer threatened.
--It is revealed that Bilbo spent much of the return from the
Lonely Mountain in a psychedlic cool aid funk.
--In a particularly heartbreaking scene, Sam returns to his home
on Bag Row to find the Gaffer has just died of a heart attack.
--The One Ring is not discovered in a cave in the Misty Mountains,
but the result of an impulse purchase by Bilbo on eBay.
--Grima Wormtongue would be a lawyer from Wolfram and Heart.
--Elrond, finally tiring of her hanky panky with mortals, goes
to bring Arwen to the Grey Havens, but a defiant Fellowship tells
him that Arwen "is family."
--The Balrog is accidently summoned by Pippen would "thought
it would be fun."
--A number of the Fellowship's missing items mysteriously turn
up in Legolas's backpack.
--They learn that Sauron just wants the Ring back so he can return
to his own home where he is a god.
--Frodo is faced with the choice of destroying his little sister
(the Ring) or allowing the world to be destroyed.
--His is saved from this choice by Gollum (his watcher) who sacrifices
himself to destroy the Ring.
--And don't forget a large number of fans would complain that
LoTR was becoming All About Aragorn, while an equal number would
complain that All Threads Lead To Frodo. A small but vocal minority
would be agitating for a larger Pippin arc, while I wait quietly
but hopefully for a Tom Bombadil appearance.
[> Re:If FOX televised the
above -- Saguaro Stalker, 17:36:00 03/04/03 Tue
The first half of The Fellowship of the Ring would be rejected
for no particular reason. They would start showing episodes after
Boromir was dead and then start bouncing back and forth in time.
Then after no one could tell Galadriel from Gollum, they would
show the start of the story as an enhanced six-hour marathon.
Days later the series would be cancelled for the latest reality
show "The World's Greediest SOB's, in which couples agree
to sleep around and fight a lot; with couples being voted on and
off for no particular reason by a panel of grade D celebrity judges
who mostly sit around and insult everybody.
[> [> LOL! Ain't that
the truth? -- HonorH, 18:03:21 03/04/03 Tue
Out of sheer bloody-mindedness, I forced myself to watch an hour
of "Married By America" last night. Then I decided I
wasn't into masochism and switched it off. I have this odd feeling
that FOX may just be the Fourth Evil.
[> Thank you! -- Anneth,
18:57:30 03/04/03 Tue
There was pathos, melodrama, giggles, shirtlessness, and gooey
metaphore-y goodness. I laughed. I cried. I bought the extended
version on DVD.
[> Re: For Anneth: If Joss
Wrote LotR -- P'tar, 22:43:20 03/04/03 Tue
Why wasn't another slayer activated after Buffy died at the end
of season 5. I mean, all the other times there was a new slayer
activated. Also, if Buffy were vamped, would a new slayer be awakened?
[> [> Niiiice piggyback.
-- HonorH, 22:55:27 03/04/03 Tue
However, not being my Super-Evil Alter-Ego
Squash the bug!
Quit interrupting, Honorificus. As I was saying, I'll give you
the official line: in Kendra, Buffy has already had her "replacement",
and the Slayer line went through her. Kendra died, and now Faith
has been Called. When Faith dies, another Slayer will be Called.
Buffy seems unclear on the concept, however, so there's no knowing
what ME will do with this before the season's over.
[> [> [> Honorificus:
Hijack her thread, lose skin and limbs. Word. -- pr10n, 10:13:09
03/05/03 Wed
[> Mind if I try one?
-- Shiraz, 12:53:17 03/05/03 Wed
After pages and pages of hinting and innuendo for a Legolas/Eowyn
romance, she instead falls for Gimli during during an elven epic
poetry receital.
Fans protest, but on closer examination of the text, there had
always been hints that she dug the dwarf's ax.
-Shiraz
[> [> Bwahahahaha!!!!!
-- HonorH, 18:11:41 03/05/03 Wed
You've definitely got the hang of this, Shiraz!
Andrew's dream
infects reality! (sort of vague storyteller spoilers) -- Anneth,
19:03:32 03/04/03 Tue
Anyone seen that Victoria's Secret commercial for the perfume
"Dream Angels"? And doesn't it remind one rather of
a certain Vision of Grandeur? I mean, there are verdant forests
and white horses (a white horse is just one step away from being
a unicorn. Ask any little girl.) and hot chicks without any clothes
on... well, okay, in Andrew's dream, there are no nekkid chicks,
but I'm sure UPN wouldn't let ME air whatever nekkidness *did*
appear...
[> We talking about the
same UPN? -- HonorH, 21:54:15 03/04/03 Tue
As in the same UPN that allowed Spike to prance around practically
in his altogethers half of last season? No, the reason there were
no semi-nekkid girls in Andrew's "We Are As Gods" dream
was because it was *Andrew's* dream. More likely to find semi-nekkid
Xander there.
[> [> I was thinking,
more along the lines of Nekkid!Warren... :) -- Anneth, 22:08:22
03/04/03 Tue
[> [> [> Gah! The
mental images! SCARRED FOR LIFE!!!!!! -- HonorH (reeling in
pain), 22:52:05 03/04/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> Does
it help if he has big white wings and lacy panties? -- Anneth,
23:02:36 03/04/03 Tue
Okay, I think that's enough out of me!
[> [> [> [> [>
You're just evil. I think I like you. -- Honorificus (The
Never-Unsuitable One), 06:41:47 03/05/03 Wed
Super-Wimpy Alter-Ego has gone catatonic. Thanks for letting me
out.
[> [> [> [> Ahem.
A little proportion? -- KdS, 05:33:45 03/05/03 Wed
Adam Busch, Danny Strong and Tom Lenk are all relatively good-looking
by normal world standards. No need to insult them because all
the other BtVS actors are unrealistically beautiful.
[> [> [> [> [>
No insult intended to Mr. Busch, I assure you. -- HonorH,
06:40:06 03/05/03 Wed
It's just the character he plays that repulses me. Adam Busch
isn't bad-looking, but I imagine Warren as being pasty, hairy,
and flabby-chested.
[> [> [> [> [>
My secret love -- Anneth, 10:45:35 03/05/03 Wed
Truth be told, KdS, there's a checker at my supermarket who looks
eerily like AB, and upon whom I have a huge and unrequited crush.
I didn't mean to cast aspersions at AB's appearance; I was merely
amused by the idea of Andrew having a Victoria's Secret-esque
commercial-dream starring Warren. Forgive me if I expressed myself
offensively.
(Hands KdS fresh olive branch)
Man, after
watching the Shadow rerun today on FX... -- AngelVSAngelus,
21:07:17 03/04/03 Tue
I just can't understand how so many people can have no sympathy
for Riley what so ever. The isolation felt by everyone in that
episode was just heart wrenching for me.
[> Re: Man, after watching
the Shadow rerun today on FX... -- Arethusa, 09:56:35 03/05/03
Wed
Why didn't Riley just break up with Buffy, or give her the "let's
be friends" speech? He knew she didn't love him, and was
probably still in love with Angel even though she would not return
to him. Instead of being honest with her or himself he turned
to vampire trulls. I just got the impression that he couldn't
handle having a girlfriend who was stronger than him physically,
and who internalizd her pain instead of seeking emotional strength
from him.
Generally speaking, do guys dislike girls to be emotionally self-sufficent
and reserved? They seem to think such girls are "cold."
[> [> Well, I don't know
that its a matter of gender... -- AngelVSAngelus, 10:49:05
03/05/03 Wed
Personally, I feel that its good to be emotional self sufficient,
but also in a relationship shouldn't there be a mutual ABILITY
to be able to come to your partner for emotional aid?
Riley thought Buffy was cold because she never let him inside.
I agree he wasn't honest with himself or her about it, but I can't
think the guy a misogynist for wanting to be there for her. I've
been there before, and for me at least, it felt as if my abillity
to help was being rejected, that I wasn't good enough to comfort
someone.
Have you ever just felt like you had so much love to give and
that nobody wanted it?
[> [> [> Buffy's emotional
reserve. -- Arethusa, 11:10:04 03/05/03 Wed
Buffy's had to be so strong for so long that it's difficult for
her to release her pain-perhaps she feels that if she let any
out, she would drown in the flood of emotion. She's always had
to be secretive and hide what she was going through. Maybe she
just doesn't know how to let it out-she is even more reserved
now than she was with Riley, I think.
Yes, partners should be able to go to each other for emotional
support. But there are different kinds of support, and one of
them is letting someone be who they are. Now, if Buffy's reserve
is hurting her, holding her back emotionally, she needs to be
called on that, which Xander and Willow have done in the past.
But her situation is unique, to say the least. She baances on
a very fine line, between shutting down emotionally and needing
to be tough to do her job.
I think everyone's felt that they have no one to give their love
to, especially when they are young-I know I have.
[> [> [> [> Buffy's
emotional reserve & Giles -- WickedBuffy, 13:22:26 03/05/03
Wed
It also seems that since Giles has been gone so much - and his
character seems more like an absent-minded professor (just a movie
reference, no harm meant to professors::protecting my flank::)
err, anyway Giles, Giles was a pretty strong father/parent figure
to Buffy and that seems to be nearly gone now. That could also
feed into her need to maintain and hold everything and everyone
together lately, more than she had to earlier. She's takng this
apocalypse MUCH more serious than the ones of the past, it seems.
[> [> [> [> [>
Taking the threat seriously (spoilers S6 end) -- Vickie,
16:40:56 03/05/03 Wed
WickedBuffy said: She's taking this apocalypse MUCH more
serious than the ones of the past, it seems.
Meseems that the disaster at the end of S6 was largely caused
by Buffy (and friends) not taking the Nerd Troika seriously. If
they had, Buffy could have stopped them long before they hatched
the whole Orbs plot and maybe Tara wouldn't have been murdered
and maybe Willow wouldn't have gone dark. I think that Buffy's
attitude this season comes at least in part from her learning
that lesson very well (for a change).
[> [> [> Balance and
fit and timing -- luna, 17:43:00 03/05/03 Wed
Aside from my personal reaction to Riley (which is that he is
BOR-ING), here are my thoughts on Buffy and Riley (is this known
as Ruffy?):
He's a great guy for somebody, sometime, as Sam figured out, and
strong and self-sufficient is obviously not a problem for him,
BUT
It may be for Buffy. Actually she seems attracted to Angel and
Spike not only for their essential hotness and potential-but-under-control
badness, but for their vulnerability. Riley really wasn't vulnerable.
Also, he didn't share that specialness that JW has said is the
essence of Buffy--the one who is an outsider not because she has
less but because she has more than normal people. Angel and Spike
share her alienation and her longing to be free of it. Riley just
wasn't a fit for her. And the fact that he couldn't figure out
that it wouldn't work, and so leave and get on with it earlier--that's
one more reason they weren't a fit.
[> [> In defense of Riley,
God help me -- Gyrus, 14:42:06 03/05/03 Wed
Why didn't Riley just break up with Buffy, or give her the
"let's be friends" speech?
For the same reason Spike hasn't. You don't necessarily stop loving
someone just because they don't return your love.
I just got the impression that he couldn't handle having a
girlfriend who was stronger than him physically
I think Riley's problem wasn't that Buffy was stronger than him,
but that slaying is a huge part of Buffy's life, and losing his
super-strength made it much harder for Riley to play a role in
that.
and who internalizd her pain instead of seeking emotional strength
from him.
I think of it this way -- if you offer your friend a ride home
and he chooses to walk in the pouring rain instead, what does
that say about how he feels about you? Maybe it has nothing to
do with you (ex. he likes walking in the rain, or he's punishing
himself for something), or maybe it's because he can't stand you
or doesn't trust you. Buffy's unwillingness to share her feelings
with Riley probably gave him similar doubts.
Generally speaking, do guys dislike girls to be emotionally
self-sufficent and reserved?
Self-sufficiency is great -- no mentally healthy man wants a needy,
dependent woman. But when a woman you've been with for a long
time never shares her feelings with you, she either doesn't feel
she can trust you (in which case your relationship is probably
doomed), or else she is so emotionally damaged that she doesn't
trust anyone (in which case she's probably going to need a lot
of time and/or therapy before she can be with anyone, including
you).
Women, I think, are more tolerant of men who don't express their
feelings because they know that, for many men, it isn't personal
-- they were just raised that way. But when a man is with a woman
who never opens up to him emotionally, he is more likely to believe
that it has something to do with him in particular.
[> [> [> </i>
-- nobody special, 16:36:39 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> [> But Buffy
keeps giving Spike some hope -- luna, 17:44:46 03/05/03
Wed
[> [> Re: Man, after
watching the Shadow rerun today on FX... -- Corwin of Amber,
19:26:55 03/05/03 Wed
Coming into this one late, I know.
>Generally speaking, do guys dislike girls to be emotionally
self-sufficent and reserved? They seem to think such girls are
"cold."
Something I explained to a friend of mine in that same situation
years ago...sometimes you accept help or comfort, not for YOU,
but for the OTHER person. Not because you need it, but because
they need to give it to you. You give of yourself by letting them
give to you. To do otherwise is actually taking something from
the other person, because they're expressing themselves, and you're
cutting them off, just as if they had started a conversation and
you had ignored them and walked out of the room.
A Plea for
Some Help Regarding AtS... -- KT, 22:22:22 03/04/03 Tue
Hi everyone
I was wondering if some beneficent individual out there could
do me a favor. I used to be a big fan of Angel and watched until
the season finale last May, but this year, when the show switched
timeslots, I had a conflict that prevented me from seeing it,
and I was too lazy to set the VCR to tape it. Thus, I'm completely
in the dark as to what's happened this season. NOw that Faith
is returning and everyone is saying that the finales of Buffy
and Angel might be intertwined, could somebody please give me
a brief (we're talking Cliff's Notes) summary of what's happened
so far on Angel this season? What's the major story arc? Who's
still on the team? Has anyone been killed off? I can't tell you
how much I appreciate it.
[> ^ WKCS above - KT, I'd
love to give you a run-down -- Scroll, 23:16:45 03/04/03
Tue
But I'm turning in for bed. Gotta sleep, school tomorrow. Hopefully
this thread will still be here in the morning.
Just to warn you, Angel has been churning out major
stuff this season. Every new episode is jam-packed with big plot
developments and character goodness. I don't think a Cliff's Notes
version is possible! In fact, I strongly recommend you borrow
tapes or download the eps because this season -- you need to see
it to believe it.
Very basic stuff:
1) Wesley pulls Angel out of the ocean.
2) Angel kicks Connor out of the hotel.
3) Lorne returns to L.A.
4) Cordelia returns from the higher planes with amnesia and moves
in with Connor.
5) Fred and Gunn commit murder.
6) Lorne does a spell to restore Cordelia's memory.
7) Wes and Lilah have lots of hot sex.
8) A big, scary demon emerges from the earth where Connor was
born and brings about rain of fire.
9) Cordelia and Connor have sex. Angel watches. The fans yell,
"Oedipus!"
Then we had the hiatus of hell during the Christmas break. I could
keep going with the newer eps from Jan-March, but I want to give
you the chance to change your mind about watching the eps yourself.
My episode recaps sound way weirder than they actually play out
on screen. Honestly, you need to watch the episodes to really
understand where things are going. At least, IMHO as a dyed-in-the-wool
Angel fan. This season is kicking all sorts of ass!
[> [> Realising above
post will scare folks away from Angel -- Scroll, 23:27:22
03/04/03 Tue
After seeing the first half of the season written out like that
in point-form, it looks so... implausible. And it is
confusing, and it does seems implausible at times. But trust me,
KT -- it's a good confusion. And there is a design among all the
chaos. There's a ton of things I've glossed over. I don't even
mention Gwen Raiden, a new character introduced. I don't mention
any of the love quadrangles and triangles. I don't mention the
sheer WTF? quotient and the Oh My God, Did They Just
Do That? quotient and the Oh, That Was Sweet
quotient of this season. I'm loving Angel even more than
Buffy this year.
[> [> [> It's sooo
hard to summarize AtS -- Briar (keeping thread up), 00:48:17
03/05/03 Wed
[> Re: A Plea for Some Help
Regarding AtS... -- Dannyblue, 06:59:31 03/05/03 Wed
Have you tried reading the episode summaries at City of Angel.
They pretty much give a blow-by-blow of each episode. It's the
next best thing to watching the show.
Well, it's not really. Of course the actual episodes gives you
flavors you won't get in a summary. Still, it's a great way to
catch up.
The green,
green grass of Pylea (Angel Odyssey 2.20-2.21) -- Tchaikovsky,
03:17:41 03/05/03 Wed
The end of the Season has come again for me. Unlike Season One,
which I found generally underwhelming rather in the style of Season
One Buffy, this episode is as well-written, well-directed and
well-acted as any of the Buffy seasons. I think I fall on the
same side as Rufus and Rob, rather than Masq on personally
preferring to watch Buffy. But this is not really relevant- the
view I really want to address is that Angel is not an inferior
show, is not worse written, and is certainly not unengaging or
unphilosophical.
In fact, the last three episodes which I review here are going
to be the hardest reviews for me to write to date. This is because
I think that the Pylea arc is extremely clever and insightful
and carried off with trademark Greenwaltian surreality- but I
also think that, due to the amount of exposition necessary in
each episode, I was spending more time watching the developing
plot and thinking about the consequences of the Pylean society
than fishing for those character parallels and thematic resonances.
It's definitely an arc which needs re-watching, because I believe
there is a lot going on under the surface wackiness. Anyway, here
goes on the few things I did pull from the conclusion to Season
Two.
2.20- 'Over the Rainbow'
As you probably all know by now, I'm never going to let a title
like that go by without drawing several unwarranted comparisons.
Let me first mention that I think this title and the next one
is revealing about the focus of the episodes. In 'The Wizard of
Oz', Dorothy is the main character. In 'Through the Looking Glass
and What Alice Found There', Alice is obviously the main character.
So there are question to be asked about Cordelia, and if she is
particularly girl-like or immature in this arc. I'll return to
this.
The most obvious reference to Oz is Cordelia clicking her heels
together three times. Cute. Also, we clearly have the idea that
Cordelia has been yamked unintentionally away from tedious reality
towards something bright, colourful and very different. In Oz,
of course, there are apparently very simple manifestations of
good and evil, rather similar to how Lorne describes Pylea in
'Belonging'. There are the Good Witches and the Wicked Witches,
and the great ruler in the Emerald City. There are valiant warriors.
Cows are cows and are inferior. The social system is unchangable.
However, Cordelia's coming, like Dorothy's house falling on top
of the Bad Witch, throws everything up in the air. Initially,
Cordelia is just another cow, but when it is revealed she has
the sight, we see how her arrival has affected the system. The
mislead is a fairly obvious one- I doubt too many people were
surprised by the Queen twist at the end. Like Dorothy, Cordelia
is adopted as special, and allowed special privileges. Eventually,
however, like Dorothy, Cordelia's very different-ness is going
to shake up the system. Dorothy is the person who discovers the
Emperor's supposed power is a scam. And Cordelia in turn catalyses
the overturning of the Pylean society.
OK, title done. Now the actual episode.
-You have to feel a little bit sorry for Andrew Lloyd Webber sometimes,
don't you? You don't? OK, then.
-When Angel was on the 'phone talking to somebody, I imagined
it to be Buffy. Not for any particular reason, just that he was
talking deeply and intimately, and it seemed the most obvious
choice of person to leave the 'terra incognito' explanation to.
This had the effect on me of making the fact that it was actually
Gunn a very powerful expression of his value to Angel and his
group. I don't know whether that was the play ME were going for,
(I'd be interested to hear if anyone else thought the same as
me), but it showed to me that Gunn has really become an important
member of the group to Angel. And it certainly made Gunn realise
that as well, which is why his about turn was not too contrived
from my perspective.
-Cordelia's 'Isn't anyone gonna ask if I'm OK?' is a nice subtle
play off her complaining that everyone always asks that a couple
of episodes earlier. A good case of 'you don't know what you got
until it's gone'. Now Cordelia is alone, and perceives herself
as being a slave, she has lost all that support, which seems comforting
even if rather suffocating at times
-I loved the battle scene subversion. How many times do we see
our gallant heroes valiantly beat off an enemy numbering tenfold
the size of the Good Side? When Wesley says he thinks they might
win, and then we cut to them tied up, it is a tidy cutting down
of a cliche used too often in film and TV.
-The whole cow thing reminds me of 'South Park', where the humans
of the USA believe they are superior, but in fact aliens decide
that cows are the most intelligent life on the planet. The point
frm Parker and Stone is that we constantly over-value ourselves
in comparison with animals. Here, we see the ruling race just
assuming that the humans are cattle, rather than coming to the
opinion through enquiry.
-Lorne has another 'writer' line: 'You know, your classic film
noir'. Shows that Angel is based upon that genre, (cf Slain's
marvellous essay) but also that in doing the Pylea arc, ME have
gone off in a completely different direction.
-Now Cordelia really is 'Queen C', the thing she's always wanted
to be. The question really is: will Cordelia realise eventually
that Pylea, like Oz, is only a dream, and has as many good points
as bad points. In some ways, despite its obvious flaws, Pylea
is not better or worse than Earth, just different. This is backed-up
by the varying reactions of the characters to being there. Lorne,
the bohemian, is as a character out of place in this Fantasy Genre
world, and thus detests it. For Cordelia, the bowing and attention
seems, at least for a while, just what she's always wanted. For
other characters, it's just the little things. Angel's reflection.
Wesley's ability to lead. Even Gunn as a noble warrior for freedom,
identifying with the slaves without the difficult concepts of
belonging and moral ambiguity in death.
Interesting episode by Mere Smith. Not top quality, but nicely
done.
2.21- 'Through the Looking Glass'
There are two Alice's in this episode- Cordelia and Fred. Both
are continually faced with things that seem entirely random and
dream-like, and both have an innocence, trying to play the role.
In 'Through the Looking Glass', the story is at the end explained
ingeniously by Lewis Carroll as a chess game, (he's another one
of those crazy maths types. Don't trust them). The idea is that
there's a formality to Alice's movements underlying the supposedly
random finding of 'Jabberwocky' and meetings with Tweedledum,
Tweedledee and Humpty Dumpty. This is played out carefully in
the episode. Minear loads the episode chock-full of meaty revelations
and plot turns, but behind it all is the supposed prophecy about
exactly what will come to pass. Cordelia will mate with the Grooselag
[?]. All is planned out by Wolfram and Hart, who I was genuinely
surprised to find in this episode, and who are the literal power
behind the throne.
Non-episode title thoughts:
-Numfar. The dance of joy. I can't imagine another series creator
and all-round genius finally making a cameo in his show and giving
himself a part this ridiculous. It sums up who Whedon is really.
And of course, his dance is just an entertainment in reaction
to his and others' lives, just like Whedon's show is. Only the
stoniest heart wouldn't melt at the Dance of Joy.
-Initially, we appear to be setting up people as their ideal perceptions
of themselves. Wesley is the ultimate Bard, mastering the trionic
of the books. Angel has human attributes, but is celebrated as
a bone fide champion and do-er of good. Cordelia is the Queen
with the respect and the power. But all these sour. Wesley is
betrayed by the arbitrary whims of Cordelia, and becomes an exile
again, just as he is originally an exile from his family in England.
Angel realises that his sides have been polarised, not the monster
just cancelled out. Cordelia realises that she doesn't really
have power- but is instead part of an arcane prophecy which appears
to be controlling everyone. Again, Pylea isn't paradise, it's
just different.
-Loved Lorne's 'audience' moment here. The Deathwok clan's spokesman
asks him to recount the tale of the man who could detach his limbs
at will. Lorne quips sarcastically, 'Yeah, that's a good one'.
A metanarration on the audience's dislike of the episode. Good
stuff.
-I really like the character of Fred. We haven't really seen a
truly nymph-like, child-like character in Angel's run. At the
beginning of Buffy we have Willow as the apparently sweet and
innocent one. Then we get Dawn. There were several moments in
the final two episodes where I felt compared to go 'awww!' rather
like I would do many times in 'Doppelgangland' or 'Real Me'. I
think she'll be a really interesting character, partly because,
as we've seen with Dawn and Willow, the sweet and innocent persona
isn't really who they are. On top of this, of course, Amy Acker
is just exceptionally pretty. Which is always good.
-Fred assuming Angel is an hallucination is a lovely, really sad
twist- and the idea that her old life has become just a story
is as beautiful a moment of writing as anything. Fred doesn't
really understand the pattern of what's being played out in front
of her, rather like Alice. She is the 'little girl lost' as much
as Cordelia, and when Angel compares the two of them, and Fred
responds 'They didn't treat me like that' [Awwww!] we see both
the parallel Alices of Cordelia and Fred, and her lack of understanding.
She doesn't have the full story, because she doesn't know about
the visions or the prophecy.
-Organised religion is bad again. Organised religion is usually
bad in the Whedonverse.
-The Lorne's beheaded twist is a little silly, although it does
sum up well Cordelia's dilemma. She wasn't to know that Lorne
would be beheaded, but she is responsible. This dream, as she
tells Groo, can't continue for long. It must end. She likes playing
queen, but it is all too surreal, like Alice thinks. Not her real
life.
I think Minear struggles just a touch in this most Greenwaltian
of settings with keeping his trademark over-arching themes from
coming through. Greenwalt demonstrates how Pylea is much more
suited to his more haphazard, inspired or awful approach with
the finale. But still a good episode.
2.22 and my Season End ratings out of ten to come in a couple
of hours.
[> Re: The green, green
grass of Pylea (Angel Odyssey 2.20-2.21) -- Rahael, 03:42:45
03/05/03 Wed
Great post again.
I am glad we have reviews for S3 coming up, hopefully!
Some thoughts on OZ and Alice.
I think it is Fred who is more the child-like girl in the Pylea
story rather than Cordy. Cordy, who is associated with being a
Queen, and with fertility is more woman than girl.
Also, it's interesting if you compare the society of Oz to the
society of Pylea. Frank L Baum was a socialist, and this comes
out in a lot of his Oz books - and in explicit contrast to Pylea,
in Oz, prisons are places of rehabilitation, where people are
treated well, fed good food and given books to read and so on
(Dorothy ends up in one briefly in a later novel).
There's a connection to Storyteller, here, I feel. I had the same
heartstring tugged with watching Fred, as I did reading the posts
about Andrew. Dwelling in stories. Dwelling in fantasy. Fred,
who makes 'reality' a story because it's a beautiful fairy tale
compared to the hellish fairy - tale like land she lives in.
Fred, who in a fairy tale should be a princess (a girl, rather
than a grown up queen) but is a cow. Reminiscent with the start
of many a fairy tale, but there is no real happy conclusion.
More thoughts later. Busy day.
[> [> Well... --
Tchaikovsky, 06:50:21 03/05/03 Wed
Interesting on the Oz books, I've only seen the film. I knew they
were based on a very large canon of books from Baum, but I've
never got roundto reading one.
On Alice, I agree that Fred is the child-like girl. But I also
think that Cordelia expresses a different side of Alice, but an
important one. There's that line in 'Wonderland'which is often
quoted- something like 'I'm not quite sure what I am. I know what
I was when I woke up this morning, but I've been going through
some changes.' Alice's advenutres are (at least subtextually),
about the beginning of adolescence; how confusing it is to grow
up.
Now in this Pylea arc, Cordelia falls into this at first paradisal
situation where she is the queen- the role she always wanted to
be (note her numberplate). But she soon realises that the prophecies
and the decisions she must make are really difficult, and few
things make any sense. Cordelia grows up at the end of the arc,
by realising that this self-indulgent world is not the real one-
but really more of a complex self-examination, just like Alice's
daydreams. Alice starts to grow up, and Cordelia has to learn
to 'give up childish ways' and start to mature. Maybe Fred is
the Alice at the start of her adventure, Cordelia the Alice at
the end. In any case, I think the parallels are there for both
of them. Note that Angel compares Fred and Cordelia's experiences,
drawing together their stories- and at the same time, in the episode
'Through the Looking Glass', Angel can see himself. He has unusual
sight, and is able to be reflective.
OK, I'm just making it up now.
TCH
[> [> [> From Pawn
to Queen -- Rahael, 06:57:50 03/05/03 Wed
Good point TCH.Isn't Alice in the in between stage? Between childhood
and womanhood? well, I always thought so.
I think you are right when you say Cordy and Fred are two halves
of Alice/Dorothy. Queen/Slave.
After all, doesn't Alice start of as a pawn at the beginning of
the game, only to become queen at the end? Only the grand meal
and coronation doesn't go quite according to plan. Alice realises
that she was a pawn all along. Cordy is as much of a slave as
Fred, all she is needed for is her body.
There's also another allusion to a different Alice book - when
the Queen keeps shouting "Off with her head!" and Lorne
does lose his (this is something I hadn't realised before!)
[> [> [> [> Alice's
age -- Tchaikovsky, 07:48:22 03/05/03 Wed
I don't know exactly how old Alice is supposed to be- although
she is based on Lewis Carroll's friend Alice Liddell, who was
about 8 or 9 at the time. Of course, in the current climate which
is obsessed with paedophilia, Carroll's relationship with Alice
has been re-assessed, particularly in light of the photographs
he took of her. Reminds me a little of that rather exploitative
Michael Jackson documentary, where it appeared Jackson was just
emotionally stunted, and wanted to make friends with little boys,
but it was portrayed as something seedier.
I suppose Alice the character probably comes across as a little
older than Alice Lidell was, although I'd always imagined them
as the same age.
And great other points. Agree entirely
TCH
[> The green, green grass
of Pylea ctd (Angel Odyssey 2.22) -- Tchaikovsky, 04:45:09
03/05/03 Wed
2.22- 'There's no Place like Plrtz Glrb'
And so here we are at the last episode of the Season, and another
Greenwalt classic. And once again we start with Lorne. In particular,
with Lorne's head. There's a certain tidiness about starting the
season with the bizarre singing moment, and starting the final
teaser being surprised by Lorne again. It's silly. It's there
for virtually no reason. But it's funny and bizarre and completely
in the style of the Pylea arc. Greenwalt does extremely well in
this episode because Pylea is a Greenwalitan place- full of random
customs he can make up, plot twists that only work because it's
another world, and weird character nuances.
There's a clear parallel being made between Groo and Angel in
this episode. And the reason why the whole battle very much sums
up the effect AI have had on Pylea is that it is fought between
two morally ambiguous positions. Before they came, Pylea was a
simple land with understandable, (if in some cases oppressive)
customs. By the season finale, Groo fights Angel. Angel is battling
for the rights of the cows to be free- anathema to the prophecy
and to the Wolfram and Hart evil monks, yet with some element
of self-interest in finding Cordelia. Meanwhile, Groo is fighting
because that is his life. He is a Champion, even though born to
look like a human. It is interesting that certain cases of 'deformity'
appear to count as positives in Pylea. Despite Cordelia being
a cow with the rather damaging Visions, the fact that she is special
and different elevates her to Queen status. Similarly, Groo's
human half has not stopped him from becoming a well-respected
champion. Pylea is not as black and white as it appears, and the
Groo/Angel fight demonstrates this.
Of course, at the core, both Groo and Angel are fighting for Cordelia.
Groo is a very obvious parallel to Angel. Originally, we are expected
to believe the rather trite conclusion that Groo is what Angel
should be. However, as Cordelia explains to Groo that saving Lorne
was his greatest act of courage, he starts to understand that
it is a personal struggle, not just a grandiose mythic fighting,
which wins real respect. So Groo starts out as what Cordelia would
like Angel to be. But she realises eventually that Angel is the
more whole, more rounded Champion, even though deeply flawed.
Groo would never survive the machinations of Wolfram and Hart
in LA. Groo becomes to Cordelia just one side of the whole Angel.
Similarly, Angel has his own identity problems. He has been split
into the human-like side and the demon-like side. Initially, he
thinks he can eat his cake and have it too. That he can be the
supernaturally endowed Champion and yet walk in sunlight experiencing
the simple joys of a human that he has not been able to for 250
years. but it becomes clear that Pylea has just aggravated his
necessarily schizophrenic character. It is a wake-up call that
the integration of the two parts of him, despite all these years,
is still only just beginning. Beast!Angel summarises all that
Angel does not wish to show Wesley- the animalistic urges that
he feels in his id, and tries to suppress. Human!Angel is the
kind of person Angel would like to be in an ideal world- mortal
yet still powerful. But it is clear that he can't have this- he
knows from both 'In the Dark' and 'I Will Remember You' that this
vision is unrealistic and can never happen.
Other haphazard ponderings:
-I liked that cut from the bottom of the basket to the moon. Don't
know if both of them are supposed to symbolise womanhood- the
abundance of the basket and the traditional lunar cycle metaphor-
but even if not it was a lovely bit of editing.
-Wesley's question 'Why does everyone keep making me leader?'
is a question he actually knows the answer to. He is a great leader,
given a little confidence, as he has already demonstrated in 'Guise
Will Be Guise' and during the 'Redefiniton'-'Epiphany' arc. He
is intelligent, brave, calm under pressure, and not all that bad
a fighter. He is sometimes a little too self-belittling for his
own good. Wes and Gunn's battle, as 'rebels' is telling. They
are the two 'normal people' in the show [not Everyman, that's
Cordelia, but non supernaturally-endowed], and they show how personal
confidence can win over corrupt regimes with their uprising.
-W+H are the First Evil in Pylea. Unseen, melting through the
consciousness, pretending not to be there at all, but actually
perpetuating a very particular idea of Fate.
-Declaration of Independence is a nice touch. If I had to give
you one thing that the US has done for the world, it would be
the Declaration of Independence. Cliche I know, but at this time
when they are acting as the world's grumpy teacher with their
big, scary cane, it's nice to see that at least the foundations
of the country repsonsible for these great shows has its heart
in the right place. That's just my withdrawn Lorne-like English
perspective.
-Gunn explaining to Groo what he must do to remould the country
is powerful, particularly when the audience knows how hard he's
been on himself about losing one of his own community. He's not
just saying the struggle is going to be hard. He's lived it.
-Alyson Hannigan's 4 seconds worth of acting is wonderful. Those
big, distressed eyes really do the trick. And it's very important
that she doesn't have to say anything- Angel instinctively knows.
Last Season ended with a surprise return of an old flame. This
Season ends with the surpirse loss of an old flame. How will Angel
respond? Some of that question is possibly swallowed by the Summer
Hiatus, but there should definitely be some follow up in 3.1.
Which I'm looking forward to already.
Which just leaves the ratings out of 10. I repeat as always two
things. First that these ratings have changed in the context of
the Season's later episodes, and therefore you may not always
be able to match up my review to the number. Second that the numbers
don't mean a lot to me really- the responses I've already posted
mean a lot more.
Judgement- 9
Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been- 10
First Impressions- 5
Untouched- 7
Dear Boy- 6
Guise Will Be Guise- 7
Darla- 8
The Shroud of Rahmon- 6
The Trial- 10
Reunion- 9
Redefinition- 8
Blood Money- 5
Happy Anniversary- 7
The Thin Dead Line- 4
Reprise- 10
Epiphany- 10 [assuming this scale doesn't 'go up to 11']
Disharmony- 3
Dead End- 4
Belonging- 8
Over The Rainbow- 6
Through the Looking Glass- 7
There's no place like Plrtz Glrb- 9
TCH
[> [> Re: The green,
green grass of Pylea ctd (Angel Odyssey 2.22) -- lunasea,
06:42:22 03/05/03 Wed
it becomes clear that Pylea has just aggravated his necessarily
schizophrenic character. It is a wake-up call that the integration
of the two parts of him, despite all these years, is still only
just beginning.
probably the most important thing to get out of the Pylean experience.
The entire series can be viewed from this perspective and Pylea
is a very important corner.
The important question is what are the two parts of Angel that
need to be integrated. On Pylea we see the pure demon, so it would
be easy to say that is what he needs to deal with. Thing is the
goal of the show is for Angel to be rid of this demon. Angel himself
cannot be working hoping to "earn" this reward, but
that is where the show is taking him.
Angel, the souled vampire is 3 parts: that animalisitic demon,
good Angel and evil Angel. Angel's dissociation comes not from
having a demon in him, but from thinking evil Angel is actually
the demon. Then he can say "that isn't me." Angel plays
an interesting game of denial. He will fully acknowledge everything
he has done and he will acknowledge that he has a demon in him,
but he blames things on himself as demon.
One of Joss' favorite lines "It's not the demon in me that
needs killing, Buffy. It's the man." Up to this point, AtS
has been about Angel learning that the man isn't so weak and doesn't
need killing. He learned on Pylea that good Angel can beat the
demon. Then he turns the corner, but he doesn't go where you would
think.
By even separating them into good and evil, he is being dissociative.
What he needs to understand is what drives him, both "good"
and "evil," and see that they are the same thing. The
only thing separating Angel and Angelus is the soul, the ability
to care.
Human!Angel is the kind of person Angel would like to be in
an ideal world- mortal yet still powerful. But it is clear that
he can't have this- he knows from both 'In the Dark' and 'I Will
Remember You' that this vision is unrealistic and can never happen.
Perhaps my own experiences cloud this, but I don't think the writers
were saying that. Never is a pretty strong word, especially when
they gave him a prophecy to show where the show is heading. Season
1 Angel definitely wasn't ready for those things. Who is to say
what S4 or 5 Angel will be ready for?
When I was a teen or even my early 20s, I couldn't imagine being
willing to "settle" and be a Stay-at-home Mom. I was
going to cure cancer or do something pretty big that would change
the world. I was going to be important and do important things.
Now I do do something important. I stay home and raise two beautiful
daughters.
Angel learned in "Epiphany" "Not all of it. All
I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people
should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning,
then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the
world."
He hasn't gotten "all of it." Being Uber-champion and
saving the world isn't exactly the smallest act of kindness. When
he no longer has to be champion, he will be ready to Shanshu.
The PTB use his physical abilities as a vampire as a vehicle for
him to reach out to others. Being a higher being isn't about physical
ability or pounding demons. Angel is "not a lower being"
because he was "willing to sacrifice every drop of human
happiness and love he has ever known for another." That has
nothing to do with being a vampire. Nothing to do with power.
He still hasn't gotten that yet. Will he this season?
[> [> [> Pretty much
agree -- Tchaikovsky, 07:03:44 03/05/03 Wed
I think you're dead on with the first point.
On the second point- that was bad writing by me really. What I
meant to say is that in Pylea, Angel momentarily believes that
he can have mortal attributes, (reflection, walking in sunlight),
and yet still have the superhuman strength of the demon. In 'I
Will Remember You', Angel finds out what being a real human would
be like- he is weak- cannot fight the demons, and needs Buffy's
help to defeat them. I am not saying that Angel will never be
ready to be a mortal, and to accept a loss of physical strength.
My point was that Angel already realised in 'I Will Remember You'
that being mortal involves giving up his superhuman strength,
and thus Pylea is an illusion; it is not what him being mortal
would really be like. Then, of course, he is reminded of this
in full dramatic ME style- by actually turning into the demon
part of him, and banishing the illusion.
Angel is not debased on belittled as a character if his physical
strength is taken away. But, as you state, it is a necessary endowment
from the Powers That Be in order that he can be their Champion
for a while. If Angel is ready to become mortal, even if he no
longer craves it, perhaps it will happen. But the result of it
will not be the kind of Angel that he initially thinks he is in
Pylea, but something different.
Great post, by the way.
TCH
[> [> [> [> Re:
Pretty much agree -- lunasea, 08:03:03 03/05/03 Wed
On the second point- that was bad writing by me really.
Or it was bad interpreting on my part. I have seen too many people
(mostly elsewhere) talk about how Angel wouldn't want to Shanshu
and that the prophecy could be about Spike (most of these people
have never seen AtS and don't really like Angel any way. They
just want the center of their Buffyverse to get the girl)
But, as you state, it is a necessary endowment from the Powers
That Be in order that he can be their Champion for a while.
But it isn't. They aren't using him for his physical prowess.
If that was the case, why aren't they bugging Spike or better
yet Groo? They are using his physical prowess to make him what
they need. Your comments about Groo were very good. What is key
to that character is why he isn't Angel. What Angel has that he
doesn't is what makes the PTB need Angel.
Masq writes in her analysis of IWRY that if it was a test, Angel
passed it. I would say he failed it. He wasn't able to see what
he could give Buffy (or the world) as a human. Buffy's death wish
kicked in a year later. If Angel was in her life, it probably
wouldn't have. He isn't a a lower being because he was willing
to give up everything, but he isn't quite what he will become
either.
(an aside, I like to think about what would make each character
go evil/postal. Still can't really come up with one for Buffy
and would an evil Xander be that dangerous. What would happen
if Angel found out about Buffy's death wish kicking in and that
if he had stayed human he actually would have been saving her
life. We've seen Angel go after the senior partners. I don't think
he would be thrilled with the PTB. Maybe the reason it doesn't
say which side he fights on for the apocalypse is because he is
on both. He starts it in his rage for the forces of evil and then
comes to his senses and has to stop it for the forces of good.
I think about this stuff more than the writers.)
Then again, it could be bad interpretation on my part again. The
PTB want Angel to be their champion for a little while so he can
become what they really need. He does need his vamp powers for
that. Having a kid helps too.
If Angel is ready to become mortal, even if he no longer craves
it, perhaps it will happen. But the result of it will not be the
kind of Angel that he initially thinks he is in Pylea, but something
different.
Such are the seasonal arcs of Angel. Angel has craving. Angel
can't get craving. Angel transcends craving. Angel gets craving
met another way (and Masq, I am slowing working on the essay you
requested. I got caught up in the Dhammapada when writing it.
I want to include references to the suttas since it is probably
something most are unfamiliar with and the Tathagata was much
more eloquent speaker than I am)
S2 was about Angel's desire to triumph over evil. He is even willing
to go dark to do this. In "Reprise" he actually goes
on his kamikaze mission. He learns that evil cannot be defeated.
He transcends this desire in "Epiphany." On Pylea he
does triumph over evil, when he is able to come back from the
demon and doesn't have to resort to it to defeat Groo. "We're
not gonna do this. We're gonna find another way. I'm not an animal...Alright.
What part of me being all noble here - didn't get through?"
Angel never gets his needs met how he expects. Season 3 was about
getting beyond his past. This season he wants to be the Champion.
I look forward to seeing him transcend this and become a hero.
And David likes the idea of playing a human Angel. I asked him
about it and he said "Yeah, I think that would be cool. Let's
get that out there!" Joss has said he wants a "whole
new paradigm" for the show.
Thanks for the compliment.
[> [> [> [> [>
Oh please -- dub, 11:01:32 03/05/03 Wed
(most of these people have never seen AtS and don't really
like Angel any way.
Could you be more condescending? Not to mention off-base, uninformed,
misguided, and wrong?
They just want the center of their Buffyverse to get the girl)
And you don't? Your one-note samba is getting old...
Try to conceive of the reality...the disdain you express for anyone
who does not buy into your Buffyverse worldview 100% is exactly
the disdain that they feel for your limited, blinkered, Angel-centric
view of both series.
[> Preserving this little-fish
thread from the giant big-fish threads -- Masq, 09:19:52
03/05/03 Wed
That I have banished to the archives! Mwah hah hah hah hah!
[> [> Re: Preserving
this little-fish thread. -- CW, 11:40:40 03/05/03 Wed
Compared to our First Evil the one on BtVS is just a naughty weakling.
Yay, Masq, slayer of interminable threads! All hail the defender
of the right to bring up fresh conversations once in a while!
May your VHS recorder be WKCSful and true tonight. ;o)
[> [> [> Dizzy with
WKCS glee! -- Masq, 11:47:51 03/05/03 Wed
I always hesitate to clear out those big long threads, because,
let's face it, they're big and long because people are enjoying
the conversation. But there was like... 4 threads total on the
board when I got into work today. Most threads started today and
yesterday were in the archives. So the First Evil does go through
moral machinations before going about her evil duties.
Plus you just need a nice board colonic before post-episode posting
madness starts.
I feel more unblocked already ; )
[> [> [> [> This
thread won't last with a new Angel and the WKCS tonight. Bwah
ha ha! -- A Hungry Archive, 13:45:48 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
From Beneath You, Voynok Devours -- The Bidet of Evil,
14:16:37 03/05/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> But I'm the First Evil! I can do anything I want!
-- Masq, 14:46:38 03/05/03 Wed
You know, except pick stuff up and touch people.
*sigh* No wonder my life's been so dull lately!
Somewhat OT
The Shield -- 7, 04:58:17 03/05/03 Wed
Sorry to go off topic, but i was just wandering if any of the
other posters watched FX's The Shield?
The show is essentially a cop drama in league with shows like
NYPD Blue but with some Soparanos thrown in for good measure.
Of more interest, however, is the formula that i have seen. I
admit that i have not seen much of season 1 but season two has
what i would call a "Big Bad" in it. The character of
Amadio is the chief rival for rouge cop Vic Mackey and is the
ultimate bad guy that Vic is trying to catch even if single episodes
revolve around catching someone else._
Also similar is the fact that the audience knows (even if they
don't want to) that much of what Mackey is doing is the right
thing even if it is considered corrupt. This is similar to Buffy
in that she does not follow the "rules" set out for
her by the council or otherwise and she is constantly going against
the mold to do the right thing.
With Buffy leaving this summer and Angel up in the air, i feel
that The Shield is my only hope that television has a future.
So i suppose i'm giving the show my recommendation to you posters.
Also, while i'm off topic, does anyone know of a forum like this
that cators to X-Men or comics in general? I love being philosophical
about Buffy, but i do (somehow) have other interests and comix
are one of them. If anyone can help, i'd appreciate it.
[> Staying OT, Shield (& Miracles,
& Six Feet Under potshot) -- Darby, 05:53:43 03/05/03 Wed
I also would put it among the best tv out there, but this week's
episode was twisting the continuity beyond all reason, even if
it can technically fit into what's been established (although
the twisting was not as badly done as Six Feet Under, which
I may not trust at all again). The show we've seen since the beginning
gave us characters who didn't all drop from the sky on the same
day, but that's essentially what the "flashback" episode
did, with the biggest problem being the rookie cop, whose presence
restricted how much time could have passed between the flashback
and the first series episode - not enough to set the series' dynamic,
I feel.
Incidentally, the show isn't for everybody. Sara watches it, but
feels that the "...may not be suitable..." warning at
the beginning should mention her by name.
David Greenwalt's Miracles (so there is a BtVS connection
here after all) was pretty good this week, as a spooky mystery,
but I have a bad feeling for the mythology they're building. Backstories
that underlie a show's ongoing premise rarely hold up well over
time - what sounds good in a pitch meeting gets tedious over time,
especially if it's something that can't really get resolved. It
bogged down The X-Files, made The Pretender too
one-note, was discarded quickly on Star Trek (5-year mission
of exploration?), and looks to be a bad direction for John
Doe. Even the "growing up" vector of BtVS, some
might say, has not served it well (I'm on the fence about this).
Season-long arcs are the way to go, then on to something new!
[> [> Am I the only person
in America who thought that Six Feet Under was terrific? (spoilers
for SFU) -- Caroline, 07:00:04 03/05/03 Wed
I loved how the show was structured. The initial sequence was
actually a tour through all the possible realities that Nate could
have had, including the one where his mother didn't get pregnant
with him so young and all the sibs did not exist. These realities
were each referred to later in the show - I thought it was really
well-structured. I even believed the Lisa/Nate marriage - I know
from experience how when someone is faced with their own mortality
that they can make changes in their life that seem mystifying.
Although the caveat here is that I have a sneaking suspicion that
Nate is more in love with his daughter, the idea of a family and
his immortality through procreation but that's another issue!
But everyone else I've talked with about this had huge problems
with the Nate storyline and left dissatisfied. Well, I always
been contrary I guess.
[> [> [> I liked it
but... (spoilers for SFU and Shield) -- Darby, 07:28:40
03/05/03 Wed
My feeling is that if you are going to leap forward in time and
majorly change directions between seasons, you don't start the
new episode with a sequence of "what if" vignettes.
I couldn't shake the feeling that the "story" was just
an extended one of those, and we'll eventually wind up back in
the recovery room with Nate. I continued to like the characters,
or at least be interested in them, and at some point I realized
that this is supposed to be the "real" storyline,
but I had lost my investment in it and don't know how long it's
going to take to get that back.
I had a similar reaction but to a different extent for The
Shield. It just seemed wrong that Mackey's strike team and
the Captain started on the same day, and that Vic had gotten as
corrupt as he was at the series beginning in such a short time,
all under the Captain's watch. It's not impossible, but it's a
paradigm switch that seems to fundamentally change implications
from the show's premiere. I can appreciate the irony that the
Captain essentially pushed Vic down the dark road, but it didn't
play right. In the premiere, Vic was portrayed as established,
comfortable, respected by the other long-timers if not completely
trusted, and the Captain very much seemed "the new guy"
to everybody but the rookie and the strike team plant. The flashback
didn't negate that, but it did undermine it. And it bothered Sara
even more than it did me, so I know it's not just my obsessive
nature at work.
[> [> [> [> Re:
I liked it but... (spoilers for SFU and Shield) -- maddog,
07:44:46 03/05/03 Wed
See I didn't see Mackey's getting corrupt that quickly. First
off, the back in time theory showed us that he'd never done anything
that bad before. Maybe rough up a few possible crooks but nothing
serious (and am I the only one that found him justified in dragging
that guy under the fence...scratches or not? I mean, he did keep
running when Mackey told him to stop. Hell, Mackey had rights
to shoot the guy, but I digress....). Then you can see how he
doesn't want to break the rules but feels pressured to get a conclusion
to his case. And I agree, it did seem in the premiere exactly
how you said but to me that fits what we saw last night. Vic's
the good guy who gets stuff done and because Amadio's in the dark
about it for now, he still isn't really in the game.
[> [> [> I like it!
(I think) I like it! (I think) I liked it! (6FU spoilerish)
-- WickedBuffy (USA), 10:41:03 03/05/03 Wed
I've watched SFU since it started. Really liked it until the last
couple shows last season. Then, my hopes rose again watching the
initial "what if" scenes. Watching the rest of the show,
I thought it was going to turn out to be one big fake-out and
he'd wake up in the hospital, just coming out of surgery.
Well, he didn't and the show felt more like a bad soap opera to
me than what I was expecting. (Maybe my expectations grew too
much over the show haitus, though.) Anyway - I'll watch it a few
more times to see.
Meanwhile, I'm going to try to catch up on the last couple "Queer
as Folk" episodes I missed to see how that one fares.
Good thing Ive gotten hooked on "Smallville" lately.
plus, one thing I need to say:
::My name is WickedBuffy and I am a reality show addict::
[> [> Re: Staying OT,
Shield (& Miracles, & Six Feet Under potshot) -- CW, 07:03:48
03/05/03 Wed
I agree completely about series-long backstories. Themes and characters
carrying over from season to season are fine, but keeping the
same episode-to-episode driving motivation does get tiresome.
Have to say I liked John Doe everytime I watched it. But, I noticed
with each succeeding episode I was paying less and less attention.
I quit watching it, before Firefly expired because it was turning
into Muzak. It would have made a fantastic half-year story arc,
but at some point you have ask why the guy doesn't just get on
with his life.
I'm already a little antsy about Miracles. X-files lost my interest
early on because they spent too much time covering the same ground
over and over. The last Miralces episode was a little better than
usual as Darby says, but the dirrection the story arc went in
the ep. was so predictable, that it was hardly a step forward
at all.
[> [> [> Problem with
back-stories in episodic series -- s'kat, 09:42:03 03/05/03
Wed
Have to say I agree with CW and Darby here.
I agree completely about series-long backstories. Themes and
characters carrying over from season to season are fine, but keeping
the same episode-to-episode driving motivation does get tiresome.
Have to say I liked John Doe everytime I watched it. But, I noticed
with each succeeding episode I was paying less and less attention.
I quit watching it, before Firefly expired because it was turning
into Muzak. It would have made a fantastic half-year story arc,
but at some point you have ask why the guy doesn't just get on
with his life.
I'm already a little antsy about Miracles. X-files lost my interest
early on because they spent too much time covering the same ground
over and over. The last Miralces episode was a little better than
usual as Darby says, but the dirrection the story arc went in
the ep. was so predictable, that it was hardly a step forward
at all.
Yep had exactly the same problems. Always wondered why I struggle
with these type of shows - the ones that have maybe two-three
recurring characters and each week they solve a new mystery and
meet someone new, while there's this thing lurking in their own
past that is their whole motivating factor and remains unresolved
until the show ends.
The visual narrative structure of the lead character solving others
problems while attempting to solve his own long-standing one dates
back to THE FUGITIVE with David Janessan playing Dr. Kimble.(sp?)
Which unlike the movie - where Harrison Ford finds the one-armed
man and everything is wrapped up in 2 hours, Dr. Kimble spends
I believe five years just missing the one-armed man, while his
pursuer spends five years just missing Dr. Kimble. Until the series
ends with a two-hour ratings grabbing finale that up until the
whole Who Shot JR
business, was the ratings king. (We can blame the ratings grabbing
finale of The Fugitive for the continuation of this annoying gimmick
in other series. Or I should I say what I consider an annoying
gimmick.)
Lots of people seem to like this type of narrative structure,
it grates on my nerves because I've discovered most series never
really wrap up the back-story. We never find out the secret or
by the time we do, the back story has either become so convoluted
or irrational that it no longer seems to matter.
Or it's just anti-climatic.
I don't mind being kept in suspense - as long as I know there
will be a pay-off eventually. What I don't like is the back-story
being used as a gimmick to keep me tuned in until the series is
cancelled. (ie. You'll never find out about this until we cancel
the show, because once it is resolved or answered - the show ends.
Evil laughter from creators and network execs. Ugh!)
HEre's a list of other series that seem to get off on doing this:
Quantum Leap did it with Sam the leaper, trying desperately to
get home. After a while the fact he could never get there, distracted
me from the stories being presented.
The Pretender - same set up as The Fugitive. Main character hunts
his parents while on the run from secret government agency that
is pursuing him.
John Doe - man solves impossible crimes while trying to figure
out who he is.
X-Files - the whole mystery behind Mulder and the conspiracy over
his sister - this one got so convoluted by the end of the series
that even devoted fans couldn't make heads or tails of it.
And now Miracles - where the lead character is haunted by his
father not claiming him and the fact that he has the visions.
(Although I'm on the fence on whether this is a true gimmick like
the others - since I missed the last two episodes and only caught
the first episode and this week's.)
Now I thought for a while this was the route they were heading
with Angel - ie. The vampire with a soul getting redeemed task
by task until he gets his final reward = redemption. I stopped
watching it for a while because, I hate that structure. Then sometime
around S2 with Epiphany, realized that the writers had dropped
that approach and were heading forward with a more season long
arc approach.
Angel may never become human, he may never get that gold star,
it is irrelevant to what we are doing here. Angel in this sense
became more like Xena which also veered away from the whole -
I'm searching for this one thing and when it happens we conclude
concept.
Law & Order is an example of a show with just five characters,
episodic, but does not have this whole unresolved back story...hence
the reason it can continue forever without the audience becoming
annoyed by the lack of resolution and giving up on it.
It's not that I mind the back story, it's just when it remains
unresolved throughout the series, the characters remain stagnated,
stuck in the back-story, they never really move forward, they
stay (for want of a better word) constipated.
Btvs did a good job of not doing that. It's characters move forward.
They've changed, grown (well most of them, on the fence with Anya,
who is acting way too much like S4 Anya at the moment.) A Growing
UP theme at least allows for character growth. The...I'M Searching
for This Puzzel Piece but Can't Find it Until the Series Ends
view tends to keep us all in stasis and it's a horrible thing
to do to your audience - make your audience wish for an ending
to the series just so they can see the resolution. We gain the
resolution but lose the characters. No reward. Or in the case
of some series - which get cancelled before we see a resolution
(Now and Again comes to mind) we are left with neither the characters
nor the resolution. This in my humble opinion is reason enough
to not invest any time in the show to begin with. Note to television
show creators, alienate your audience at your own risk...they
don't have to watch.
SK
[> [> Re: Staying OT,
Shield (& Miracles, & Six Feet Under potshot) -- maddog, 07:25:07
03/05/03 Wed
I disagree on Pretender. I think it adds to the current mystery
by giving us so much backstory..it also adss to the dynamic between
the characters(especially Jared's connections to both Sidney and
Ms Parker). I never saw the show during it's initial run. I'm
watching the repeats on TNT now.
[> [> [> Daily versus
weekly -- Darby, 07:32:34 03/05/03 Wed
I wonder if the pace of daily reruns doesn't support these long
arcs better - originally, it was years of dribs and drabs of core
story, strung out over gaps like modern primetime gives us, until
it seemed like everything was moving at a snail's pace.
[> Maybe not so OT - The
Shield's Buffy connection -- Rahael, 07:09:57 03/05/03
Wed
Or to be exact, Angel Connection. I believe that Shawn Ryan, who
was a writer for AtS created/writes for The Shield. There are
some very similar themes in 'The Thin Dead Line'
[> Re: Somewhat OT The Shield
-- maddog, 07:15:42 03/05/03 Wed
I don't see how there could be a Big Bad on this show. Amadio's
a pain in the ass, sure, but he's trying to keep everything by
the letter of the law. Partly because that's his belief in how
the job should be done...and part because they've got civilian
auiditors around paying close attention. So for Mackey he's an
obstacle. But Mackey's no saint either. He plants evidence, he
makes money off the crooks with drugs, etc. I can't consider him
the hero. I know he's supposed to be but it's hard. Of course,
as you said, he's also the nice guy at heart kind too that hates
battered women, fights for his family, etc. Yeah, it's a tough
call...tends to be a very good show. They get away with a lot
more than the average show in what they do and say as well.
[> [> Re: Somewhat OT
The Shield -- Seven, 08:20:26 03/05/03 Wed
"Macky's no saint either"
Well, that's the whole dynamic to the show. JMHO, but i feel that
he is doing the right thing most of the time. He did kill a cop
and does take money that doesn't belong to him, but the only real
thing that has tarnished him is the fact that he killed a cop.
All his other actions can be rationalized.
He is getting the bad guys
he's a cop who makes all kinds of arrests but still doesn't make
enough money to care for his autistic kid.
the list can go on.
I love the show. Episode two was by far the best. the tention
was incredible.
oh, yeah, you are right. Amadio was just an obsticle, but he can
be compared to Spike is season 2. He was originally made out to
be the BB, but that turned out to be Angel by the end of the show.
So now, who is the BB? It's tougher to say in this show, cause
in a way Macky himself is his own worst enemy.
Shit (pardon the french), but i freakin love this show.
7
[> [> [> Re: Somewhat
OT The Shield -- maddog, 09:13:02 03/05/03 Wed
I guess how good or bad Mackey is is dependent on how you feel
about law enforcement. How far do you go to get the bad guys?
Is framing them ok in your moral standards? Is taking money from
drug sales ok with you? These are things he does on a daily basis.
Is he well paid? no. But he knows this and still sticks with the
job. Hell, if he's as good as we all know he is then why isn't
he asking for a raise? I don't think there is a big bad on this
show because every week someone else steps up as an obstacle.
Buffy's Dark
Night of the Soul:Life Serial -- lunasea, 07:11:18 03/05/03
Wed
I love how it opens with Buffy almost happy. She gets to see Angel
and touch the higher consciousness for a while. She comes back
a bit recharged. That is until, her gift of fried chicken isn't
necessary. Then you can literally see the life drained out of
her again. Back out of heaven (being with Angel) and having to
deal with mundane life again.
So what is our hero going to do? She has to find a way to resume
her "life." First instinct, do what she was doing before,
go back to college. Thing is college doesn't fit with her any
more.
I loved the scenes in the classroom. I love when ME writes class
dialogue that seems to be like filler, but actually tells what
they are trying to do. We got Professor Walsch and her Freudian
crap S4, we had the talk about Quasimodo S5 and S6 we have Sociology
Class. (i'm sure there is some high school class stuff, too)
To pull it out, since it went by so fast:
MIKE: Social Construction of Reality. Who can tell me what that
is? (many students raise their hands including Willow) Rachel.
RACHEL: A concept involving a couple of opposing theories, one
stressing the externality and independence of social reality from
individuals. (Buffy looks confused)
MIKE: And the flip side? (many hands raised) Steve?
STEVE: That each individual participates fully in the construction
of his or her own life.
MIKE: Good, and who can expand on that? (hands) Chuck?
CHUCK: Well, those on the latter side of the theoretical divide
stress...
BUFFY: (leans toward Willow and whispers) Will, I'm not following
this too well.
WILLOW: Oh. The trick is to get in the rhythm, kinda go with the
flow. (raises her hand)
BUFFY: Flow-going would be a lot easier if your classmates weren't
such big brains.
WILLOW: (hand still raised) Buffy, that's ridiculous! They are
no smarter than you or me.
MIKE: (O.S.) Willow.
WILLOW: (lowers hand, speaks to Mike) Because social phenomena
don't have unproblematic objective existences. They have to be
interpreted and given meanings by those who encounter them. (Buffy
stares at Willow)
MIKE: (O.S.) Nicely put. So, Ruby, does that mean there are countless
realities?
There are 2 things going on here. First is Buffy feeling like
she doesn't fit in a world she once excelled in. Prof. Walsch
had her delivering papers S4 and Willow was jealous of her. Now
she feels inferior compared to the "big brains."
The second is the subtext of what they are talking about. I will
leave that for others to talk about, if they want. For me it is
about Big vs Small mind. I have already written about that. Also,
think about the above in terms of Dawn and Normal Again.
Next Tara gives her a book. Did anyone else notice what Buffy
opens to? It is one of my favorite sculptures of all time, Bernini's
"Ecstacy of St. Teresa." I love St. Teresas of Avila
so much, that she is the inspiration for my older daughter's middle
name (everyone else can think it is my husband's beloved deceased
grandmother).
I do recommend anyone who is interested in spirituality or is
a "seeker" do some research on her and read "The
Way of Perfection" which she wrote. A google search will
give you lots of stuff.
She is patron saint of a lot (she is one of the most significant
saints to Catholic theology, male or female): bodily ills, headaches,
lacemakers, laceworkers, loss of parents, opposition of Church
authorities, people in need of grace, people in religious orders,
people ridiculed for their piety, sick people, sickness, Spain
I could do a really long post on her. That picture was no accident.
The camera got a clear shot of it and it is a famous sculpture.
I would love to hear some other people's interpretation of why
they included this.
Back to the show.
Who here doesn't feel like they are being "tested?"
The tests that Buffy goes through is pretty much what the Dark
Night feels like. I have had days where I feel like I am out of
phase with everyone, like they are moving and I am standing still,
not just mentally, but physcially. The world seems to move around
me and I miss it as it goes so fast. I feel like I get knocked
down (Buffy has super strength and cordination, should a human
being be able to knock her down) by what is going on around me
that is oblivious to my state. Tara was great--she was concerned,
but she kept on going.
Then Buffy tries the world of construction. She is going to build
stuff, well she is going to help others build stuff. What she
ends up doing is destroying things. The people she saves totally
turn on her. They are only concerned with the mundane world of
their jobs. I loved how the scene progresses. First they are saying
she isn't going to fit in. Then she shows how strong she is and
they like her. Tony was even coming over to tell her that he was
impressed.
Just as she starts to fit in, her higher calling screws things
up. I loved how the demons melted, thus taking away evidence of
what she did. Sure feels that way sometimes, I have to fight to
make things work and just when they seem to, bam, I am reminded
of why they don't. There isn't anything to show people why this
is.
Next test: endless loop, based on pleasing another. Life is an
endless loop and it seems pleasing another is the hardest thing
to do in that. If you cannot be happy yourself, how are you supposed
to be able to make others happy?It seems to pointless and at the
end, Buffy quits.
The mummy's hand was a great touch. Buffy is the Hand. She feels
all old and decrepit now. She should be dead, but is still animated.
Let's see what is wrong with the hand "Power is gone"
fingers are cut off, hand tries to strangle lady, etc, all things
that apply to Buffy.
Then there is how she progresses as the scene wears on. Her attitude
gets more and more blaise. She is more and more removed from the
situation. It ends with her quitting. I love how she turned in
her name tag, her identity.
I also love what it takes to resolve the situation, getting a
hand special ordered. What is in the shop is not going to work.
When she accepts this, she is delivered from the test. Just like
the Dark Night will end when she accepts it and realizes she cannot
make things better.
So next she goes to see Spike, in his crypt. Crypt, underground,
symbolizing the unconscious. Not even Spike can help her. He says
he will and fills her with hope, but he goes and plays kitten
poker. He just wanted to pretend that she was his lady for the
night.
Then there is the bit about she belongs in the dark. When you
don't fit with the light, there is a tendancy to believe that
you do belong in the dark. Thing is Buffy doesn't fit *anywhere.*
Best part of the whole episode were the faces she made while she
was drinking. It wasn't something enjoyable, but she kept doing
it. What else was there to do?
I like when she says "I'm not playing by anyone else's rules
any more." Like she ever did before. She is starting to realize
how she doesn't fit in this world any more. Even her unconscious
has let her down. He cheats and didn't do what he said he would.
But then Giles makes things a little better with the check. Rupert
makes things better. In Latin, Rupert means destruction within.
In French is it road through. Both having meaning in medieval
stories that deal with the Dark Night.
It ends with Buffy saying "I just ... wanna tell you ...
that, um ... this ... makes me feel safe. Knowing you're always
gonna be here. "
Giles knows that she cannot just feel safe because some guy is
around (so did Angel). That isn't really feeling safe. Both Angel
and Giles know how strong Buffy is. They see her heart. They cannot
let that heart dim because she is using them as a crutch.
They are willing to put Buffy through the Dark Night because of
what the end of it means and they know she will make it though.
You saw how Buffy was when she came back from the dead. Do you
think it was easy for Angel to let her go like that? As she put
it "it was intense." She can tell him anything. What
do you think they talked about? The Show starts with Buffy getting
a pit stop with Angel and being sent back to her Dark Night. It
ends with getting another breather, but Giles knowing she has
to go back to her Dark Night. They are fitting bookends to the
episode.
It was a very well done episode.
[> Teresa of Avila (Spoilers,
S6, one tiny spoiler for aired S7 ep) -- Rahael, 07:38:43
03/05/03 Wed
There was a lot of discussion of it in the board when it aired,
Lunasea, you might like to search under that name. There was much
comment on the fact that the statue shown was the Bernini one
where Teresa is depicted in an orgasmic/ecstatic state, being
pierced in the heart by an Angel.
It seems to tie in with more than one theme of Season 6. The idea
of heaven; the needing to 'feel' something; the fire imagery.
But also, I think it ties up with the 'Joan' reference and also
'Normal Again'. Both Joan and Teresa were two strong women who
seemed 'chosen', who were able to access God. But there is also
speculation, of course, that they weren't quite mentally stable
- BtVS kind of playfully suggest this about Buffy in Normal Again.
There are quite a few jokes about this in S7 - one from Amanda,
I believe.
But there really is a wealth of posts about this in the past,
which should be easy to search for in the archives.
RumorMONGER..
OT Stuff about JM and DB -- neaux, 08:35:48 03/05/03 Wed
I apologize in advance if there was a post on this.. but has anyone
else heard of the JM and DB rumors?
That James Marsters might be cast in Star Wars III
and that David Boreanaz is up for the role of Superman?
and if this is old news, I again apologize.. i've been away from
the boards for a little while.
[> DB mentioned this in
one of the interviews that has been doing the rounds this week..
-- Helen, 08:47:34 03/05/03 Wed
He said that he read for it but didn't get it - or couldn't do
it because of conflicting work schdules. But his name was linked.
Haven't heard the JM rumour - might make Star Wars III worth seeing
though.
[> [> the force be with
Spike -- cougar, 09:02:47 03/05/03 Wed
I know that JM was trying to get the part of Anenkin (Geoge Lucas'
daughteres are big Spike fans and visited him on the set.) I then
herad GL say that some people he considered for the part looked
great evil but were missing boyish innocence in their eyes. That
was a long time ago, so maybe he will have another part.
Wasn't NB up to play the Green Hornet?
[> [> [> I thought
it was the Green Lantern.... -- WalkingGhost, 13:54:42
03/05/03 Wed
[> Re: RumorMONGER.. OT
Stuff about JM and DB -- s'kat, 09:02:01 03/05/03 Wed
Here's what I know:
1. Marsters auditioned for Star Wars I & II and is beloved of
Lucas' daughters. He may be up for the part of young Grand
Moff Tarkin (the Peter Cushing role in Star Wars IV)in episode
III. If he gets it, my guess, having seen the first two episodes,
is it will probably be a bit part.
2. DB auditioned for Superman and was briefly up for it, but it
fell through because he is contracted to do Ats next year and
can't do both. The schedules conflict.
[> [> Re: RumorMONGER..
OT Stuff about JM and DB -- Cheryl, 10:16:11 03/05/03 Wed
Marsters auditioned for Star Wars I & II and is beloved of
Lucas' daughters. He may be up for the part of young Grand Moff
Tarkin (the Peter Cushing role in Star Wars IV)in episode III.
If he gets it, my guess, having seen the first two episodes, is
it will probably be a bit part.
I saw JM in Seattle on Sunday and this didn't come up at all!
I wish I'd known ahead of time so I could've asked him. As far
as future work, he just mentioned doing theater, possibly in England.
Also said there were only 3 more Buffy episodes to shoot. :-(
If anyone's interested in other things he talked about, and if
this is the appropriate place to post it, let me know.
[> [> [> Re: RumorMONGER..
OT Stuff about JM and DB -- s'kat, 10:45:26 03/05/03 Wed
I got my information from posters on www.bigbad.net and on www.slayage.com.
I heard that JM said at the Seattle Con - there was supposed to
be a Spike/Faith spin-off, but ED's decision to do the Noyce pilot
for Fox instead screwed that up. He said that while Whedon promised
he'd be in ANY spin-off they decided to do, he felt it was unlikely
they'd do one for another year or so now. His guess was they were
going to take 6 months to year off and do movies. Apparently the
interesting idea they'd had was Faith. Bummer. My two favorite
actors from the series in a spin-off together would have been
cool. oh well, c'est la vie...
[> [> [> YES!YES!
I'd like to hear what JM said!! :> -- WickedBuffy, 10:45:30
03/05/03 Wed
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