March 2003 posts

Escaping Hell - spoilers for Orpheus -- Scroll, 00:21:31 03/20/03 Thu

This is not going to be a very insightful post, just some thoughts. I'm probably missing a slew of things. Heh, I used the word "slew". Anyway...

Orpheus

The musician who went to hell to get his dead wife back, but who ultimately failed because he doubted and looked back. Go see the wonderful post on Orpheus by Veronica, in Archive 3.

Escaping Hades

Angelus and Faith are in hell. A very funny hell with scary wigs and Barry Manilow. Faith thinks she's done her part, that she can "lay her arms down and rest at last". Angel tells her to get up. To fight. He tells her what Buffy told him in "Amends". That to be strong is to fight, every day. That Faith's time, Angel's time, will never be up because nothing they do ever balances out the scales. They fight because it's necessary. And so Faith leaves hell, saves the day, and goes to the Hellmouth. Faith does not go gentle into that good night.

Wesley is in a hell of his own making. He's locked up his sense of humour in a jar. He's done his best to stuff his feelings into a dark closet and thrown away the key. But a little chat with our resident witch/Ultimate Evil shows him that he can't dwell on his past mistakes. That those mistakes shouldn't be a cage around him for the rest of his life. (But I must say, Willow's flippancy about almost destroying the world is rather questionable, though funny for this scene.)

Angelus and Angel can't get out of hell alone. They need Willow to re-ensoul them, and Faith to keep resentful teenage-types from dusting them. A voice chanting in Romani guides Angel up out of hell, restoring him.

Persephone

Cordelia as Queen of the Dead? (BTW, I have absolutely no idea what role Persephone plays in the Orpheus myth. I'm making it up.) Cordy traps Angel's soul in a jar and won't let it free. I don't know what is up with her crazy-creepy tassley outfit. Loved Cordy and Willow's eye-rolling of Faith as drama queen: "Coma again."

Poor Connor, played like a piano. Love his little crush on Faith, though that might be dead now that she has thoroughly kicked his ass, preventing him from Protecting His Family and thus causing him to be a Bad Father (tm Angel).

How much did I love Angel's jonesing for a hug? Very cute. And Faith and Gunn are hand-slapping! I miss the hand-slapping. Gunn and Wes need to do their hand-slapping/fist-bopping secret handshake thing again.

Somebody explain to me why Fred suddenly has more magic ability and better Latin than Wesley?

AD and AH are just the cutest couple ever. End of season last year, somebody was speculating what those two talked about when they got home from work: "Yeah, I kidnapped a baby, got nearly murdered twice, turned away from my friends, and had sex with an evil lawyer." "Really? Well, I got high on magic, flayed a man alive, sucked the magic out of Giles, and tried to destroy the world." "Really? Damn, you win!" And then, we get "Orpheus" and I have to wonder how on earth Alexis and Aly managed to keep a straight face in that scene! BTW, these two are such amazing actors. Loved how AD reverted to Seasons 1/2 Wesley? And is it just me, or did Wes and Gunn seem to twinge on the Willow/Fred vibe? That was funny, especially AD. I can just see his brain going, she's just acting. She's just acting! Right?

Faith is just lovely. She really needs a spin-off. Come on, we need a Faith/Wesley spin-off! Who's with me?

[> Nobody has any comments? Bummer... -- Scroll, 12:55:06 03/20/03 Thu

Just wanted to add that the puppy rescue was just about the Cutest. Thing. Ever. I could really feel Angelus' pain. He was in hell for sure. Heh.

[> [> Oh Scroll! -- Masq, 13:42:52 03/20/03 Thu

It's one of those posts I downloaded to save for later and possibly use in my episode analysis. Didn't read it completely through with all brain cells in tact. But I will now. ; )

[> [> Sorry, Scroll. I just feel I 'haven't seen the episode yet' and can't comment. -- cjl, 13:46:43 03/20/03 Thu

Of course, I saw 40 out of 45 minutes, but I'm a little too distracted by real world problems (micro and macro) to write a cohesive analysis or form an opinion that makes sense. Let me watch the ep again on Sunday, ruminate, and I'll dive in.

I think a lot of people on the board might feel this way.

[> [> Sorry scroll, thanks for summaries below -- s'kat, 14:05:50 03/20/03 Thu

I haven't replied really to any posts today b/c the voy demon won't let me. I tried replying five times to the people who kindly posted summaries below - and finally gave up. Thanks for that btw!! Yours was amongst the best.

But until I re-watch the episode in its entirety, it's hard for me to post on it. Also well, real world events, the voy demon, and other crap is distracting me at the moment.

For the record? I agree with much of what you said above.
Orpheus disappointed me a bit, can't put my finger on why.
And I find myself agreeing a little with Masq's comments on it.

Anyways thanks again for your post and your summaries.
Sorry don't have more to add.

Let's hope this posts...tried twice already.

SK

[> Sorry Scroll! -- ponygirl, 13:55:52 03/20/03 Thu

I meant to comment sooner! It's kind of a weird day both reality and virtual-wise. I thought your comments were great.

I'm still a bit grumpy about the metaphysical implications of this episode, so I'm not sure if I'm being entirely fair when I say I didn't like it. I'll have to give it another viewing with your points in mind.

I am wondering who was supposed to be Orpheus and Eurydice in this story. After all one of the key parts of the Orpheus story is that he failed. I'm hoping that we will find that Angel's old life, his ideas of himself as separate from Angelus, is what has been left behind in the underworld.

[> [> Just realising people might not have *seen* the ep yet! -- Scroll, 14:19:46 03/20/03 Thu

Hey, I'm all kinds of patient. Just was wondering why the board was so quiet. But I suppose it makes sense, what with Voy being all wonky and the fighting started... I've been watching/reading too much news stuff myself. I needed some Angel to clear my head. That's why I posted on it.

ponygirl, I really enjoyed the ep, but still had problems with it. So you're not the only one, I'm sure. Yes, the metaphysics issue re: Angel/Angelus is a sticky one. I hope they get around to clarifying the issue some time before the end of the season. I agree with Masq in her post to Darby re: Angelus being submerged in Angel, etc.

As for the episode as a whole, I really did enjoy, especially the first time around. It was hilarious in parts and certainly a welcome change to have funny after so many episodes of dark.

There were, however, a few things that leapt out at me as being unnecessary and awkward. Willow's reticence at coming out to Wesley being one, especially since it's been firmly established that Willow is very much a, "Hello? Gay now!" type of lesbian. Not to mention that Cordy has known for years that Willow is gay, and we're supposed to believe that Cordelia never once mentioned this fact to Angel or Wesley? The scene was played for laughs, so I'm willing to mostly overlook it. Very well acted on both their parts, however.

Also, Cordy has spent the past half season being subtly evil and manipulative. I guess I can fanwank her spaz attack on Connor as her "hormones" going out of whack, but really, why did she lose her cool like that? So far, we've seen that Evil!Cordelia is patient and that her anger is restrained and constructive (i.e. her anger at Angelus trying to track her down). Now she's shoving her baby's teenage father into a wall and making remarks about Faith and whip-cracking? Er....

These were just little things that threw me out of the moment. Nothing huge, and on the whole I really liked this episode. Very fun, had some interesting things to say re: Faith and Angel/us, and re: Wesley and Willow.

If there's no spin-off next year, we really need Willow to move over to Angel. Faith too. Cuz that would be cool : )

[> [> [> quick comment -- Alison, 14:53:40 03/20/03 Thu

I didn't get the feeling that Cordelia lost her cool. I think that she was manipulating Connor YET again-- frighten him, lay on the guilt trip, make him think the baby was special..then act like it was just a mood swing and let the guilt simmer below the surface. He can't get angry at her, but he can brood over what she said.

[> [> [> [> No way, her anger was real (spoilers) -- Scroll, 19:40:35 03/20/03 Thu

I don't deny she tried to manipulate him, but only after Connor said that he'd do anything for her. Cordelia pushed him into the wall in a fit of uncontrolled anger and jealousy.

There's no way she was faking that anger about Faith, though she immediately shifts to manipulating Connor about not being a better father than Angel. You can see her eyes shift once Connor says he would do anything to protect Cordelia and their baby. That's when she pulls the "whoops! hormones!" cover-up.

[> [> [> [> [> Evil doesn't = keeping your cool (spoiler Orpheus and CwDP) -- lunasea, 22:37:57 03/21/03 Fri

Cordy pulling the "hormones" line (which an ardent feminist approved, so now we KNOW she is evil, if there was any doubt), reminded me of Cassie/First saying that trying to get Willow to commit suicide was going too far.

Evil makes mistakes. As Cordy gets more evil, she gets more arrogant. She thinks she has Connor wrapped around her pinky and that will be her ultimate downfall. She has dropped her guard around him. Nothing undoes anyone like hubris.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: No way, her anger was real (spoilers) -- Alison, 15:34:50 03/22/03 Sat

Nope, I just re-watched Orpheus, and I still disagree with you. I think she was building up to him saying he'd do "anything" for her and the baby..she needed to hear that. Once she had, then she used the hormones excuse.
I do agree though, that she was very angry about Faith..I just think she was using that anger as a means to achieve an end.

[> Escaping Hades (no spoilers) -- Masq, 14:02:18 03/20/03 Thu

Nothing to say in response to this, your comments say it themselves. Very likely they will appear in my ep analysis.

[> [> Actually, there is one thing... (Orpheus spoilers) -- Masq, 14:14:24 03/20/03 Thu

Connor being played like a piano. Up until last night, I was comfortable with this, and then last night something about it bothered me. I just yelled at the TV, "Come on, kid, get a clue!!"

I think it was when Evil!Cordelia asked him to kill Angelus against everything she's said up to that point. I mean, even Connor looked suspicious. Then he went downstairs and tried anyway. And he tried anyway because he himself has been consistently "Kill Angelus" since Angelus emerged.

I guess I'm a bit weary of that, though. I want to see a little appreciation of this father. A little hesitation, like--do I really believe there's no hope that Angel will return? Do Ireally not love my father at all, want him back enough to hope and spare the stake?

But Connor tries anyway. It was disheartening for this Connor-Angel shipper.

But back to the naivete issue. The way he is being played by Evil!Cordelia was fine until last night, precisely, I think, because she was SO over the top. Pushing him violently. Giddy. Telling him to kill Angelus. I mean, even a kid as NAIVE as Connor has got to start having his suspicions. Instead, it's "Cordelia the mother of my child can do no wrong."

Is he that needy of a family that he'll take CrazyCordy and her luvchild? I guess if I thought it was my child, I might be protective too, but it's hard to overlook weirdness. I think I would think, if I were him, "The mother of my child is really getting WEIRD. That makes me uncomfortable."

But of course, Connor has only seen the realities of human life, like human behavior and pregnant women behavior for a year now, and has no frame of reference for this.

It's too bad he doesn't feel close enough to Wesley, Gunn or Fred to ask them if this is normal. Instead, he's just letting himself get squeezed in a vice grip of deception to the others. That's got to make him uncomfortable, even if he doesn't admit it to anyone but himself right?

[> [> [> Re: Actually, there is one thing... (Orpheus spoilers) -- LittleBit, 15:25:24 03/20/03 Thu

Regarding Connor and his apparent cluelessness --- I keep reminding myself that he spent all of his formative years under the care of a man who was so fiercely protective/avenging of his family that he made a deal with a demon just to be able to wreak his vengeance. So I have to wonder what he was taught about family values. He may simply be responding to some very ingrained ideas. It will be interesting to see how reality impacts what he thinks he knows.

[> [> [> [> I wish he would express some of those ideas -- Masq, 15:43:09 03/20/03 Thu

It would help if Connor talked a little about what he thinks a family is, why it's important to him, what Holtz taught him about women, family, anything. Yes, I remind myself that he was brought up in an environment that was not only sheltered, but that was devoid of almost all cultural frames of reference and experiences we take for granted, that almost everything he knows of human culture and behavior is second-hand, and that he knew no women at all until he was 17.

But if he'd just vocalize his naive assumptions a little, it would help. We have to supply the reasons for his naivete ourselves, rather than having some of them shown to us. All we see is the effect (the naivete) not the cause (his upbringing), and it makes for a credulity gap that we can certainly fill in with our imaginations, but....

You know what I'm rambling about?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I wish he would express some of those ideas -- LittleBit, 16:12:19 03/20/03 Thu

Actually, yes I do. I'd like very much to stop having to remind myself about him because they finally made things clear in the show.

[> [> [> [> [> Connor is lacking in 'verbalized' inner struggle (orpheus spoilers) -- Tyreseus, 18:09:34 03/20/03 Thu

I think you described in the posts above exactly what I was trying to get across last week. We can all tell that there is some inner struggle going on in Connor (or at least we hope so, if we're a Connor-Angel shipper) but we never hear it verbalized.

On the contrary, everything out of Connor's mouth is definitive, black&white, a formed opinion. I cite as example the conversation at the beginning of Orpheus (just before Willow arrives), where Connor advocates killing Angelus.

But what was interesting about that conversation to me was that it showed more self-awareness than many previous arguments Connor has gotten into. "You all think that I'm making this personal." Is, in a way, ackowedging that it is personal. Then he follows it up with non-personal reasons.

But I'm not so sure Connor was "played like a piano." Didn't Cordelia just tell him things he already believed? He was just waiting for someone to give him permission to do it. "Sometimes one death can prevent countless others." As much as Connor acts like he'll play by his own rules and doesn't answer to anyone, his actions show him constantly trying to win the approval of someone - Cordelia, Fred, Faith, the ghost of Hultz?

And maybe, (I'm tasting this idea in my mind) that's the core element to understanding Connor. If you strip away the bravado, the angst, the genetic sneer, the non-chalant attitude toward his mistakes... you just have a teenager seeking validation. That the AI team haven't given it to him has made him all the more susceptible to Evil!Cordelia's manipulation.

Okay, not a ground-breaking revelation - many posters made similar comments at the beginning of the season - but it makes a lot more sense to me now.

Anyone else hoping that Connor got a little something out of Faith's parting shot at him? (paraphrased Connor to Gunn: I get it, I messed up. Faith to Connor: We've all been there.) Unlike the other characters, Connor hasn't begun to understand guilt and redemption on an intrinsic level. I still don't think he does, but I hope that he will by the end of the season - obviously, Evil!Cordelia is leading him down the path of bad choices. Of course, he has to see the suffering and pain he causes before he can feel the need to atone.

Well, rambling again. Great comments, Masq and Littlebit.

Here's hoping the Voynok isn't still eating all my threads.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Guilt and redemption -- Arethusa (who else?), 20:29:42 03/20/03 Thu

In Orpheus, Angel rejects the idea of redemption. He tells Faith that "Our time is never up.... We pay for everything." Does he need to reject his feelings of guilt, too-feeling that might be splitting him in two? Are both BtVS and AtS both working towards the same goal-the integration of light and dark aspects in the main characters? Buffy will probably have to acknowledge-or "own"-the demon inside her to defeat the evil forces ahead. Angel is experiencing the same problem, only literally. The two parts of him are at war inside his/Faith's mind(s). The demon is reburied, but not integrated-Angel still sees it as a separate entity. His feelings of guilt might be keeping him from acknowledging Angelus as part of himself. Therefore, he will have to release his feelings of guilt to integrate.

If this is the case, there could be a very valid reason for the confusion regarding Cordy/Evil!Cordy. If the Beast Master took over Cordy's body like the demon took over Angelus, using her (stolen?) memories and personality to manipulate those around her, Cordy will have to face the same issues as Angel, thereby serving as a counterpoint to his own delimma, and possibly helping him release his feelings of guilt. She'll need to examine how much of E!C's evil behavior�

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Voy chewed up my post. Blast! -- Arethusa, 20:42:02 03/20/03 Thu

I'll try to reproduce the rest. Curses!! @#$%^&!

...is her own fault. If E!C isn't Cordy at all, just wearing a Cordy suit, she is still culpable because her vanity lead to her capture, as KdS and Masq postulated.

Guilt, redemption, justice and forgiveness-these are all issues Angel is dealing with. He's realized that he can't ask for forgiveness, justice will never restore what he stole from others, and redemption was an illusion. If he is able to rid himself of his debilitating feelings of guilt, will he finally be able to integrate?

Or am I looking at everything through Arethusa-colored glasses?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Faith to Connor: -- Veronica, 23:35:05 03/20/03 Thu

"That just makes you one of us."

Perfect phrase. Exactly what Connor needs.

-V

[> I was going to comment -- Sarand, 15:07:45 03/20/03 Thu

No, really, I was but then work reared its ugly head and I got distracted. I specifically took note of your comment about Willow's "flippancy" regarding her journey to the dark side. I found that scene to be somewhat disturbing. Although it may just be me because I'm rather disappointed in the way BtVS has dealt with the Willow redemption arc. I also found AH's performance to be just weird and didn't know whether that was intentional or not. As someone pointed out in another post, she was like S3 or S4 Willow and it felt wrong to me. I realize that it's a different show and a writer who may be unfamiliar with the character, but surely ME knows that many people who watch Angel also watch BtVS so why would they let the character behave so differently? I don't get it.

Anyway, for me, good things and bad things in this episode. Loved Faith but Evil!Cordy? Agreeing with Masq on this one: she was so over the top that I just started laughing. More subtlety would have been more convincing to me. But from the last scene it looks like sublety may be out the window.

[> Re: Escaping Hell - spoilers for Orpheus -- fresne, 17:32:02 03/20/03 Thu

Well, I wanted to make comments, but then I was eaten by meeting hell, which is only fair because work does pay me. Although, by the end of the day the meetings were OT city.

I'm still a bit brain jello-ed, I can't even express how Friday this afternoon has felt. Crazy days.

Therefore, I'm going to ramble factoids about Orpheus (the legend the episode). I'm pretty sure I'm repeating, but que sera and whatnot.

Persephone's role in the Orpheus legend. That's a good question, since it varies from story to story.

An interesting connection, given the presence of our favorite witch, is that Persephone, again depending on your myth, begins as Kore (the Maiden), is Persephone (during the Hades abduction story) and eventually becomes Hecate (Queen of Witches and Hell). Dante parallels her (Persephone) with Medusa in Inferno when the Furies attempt to summon Medusa at the Gates of Dis. So, in an going Buffy the Medusa/Kali/etc. sort of way, so to Faith. After her time of isolation, to once again re-emerge into the Sunnyhell fight.

In the Orpheus legend both Persephone and Hades are reduced to tears by Orpheus' song. Even the Furies were reduced to tears. Manilow?

Persephone's handmaidens were the Sirens (half women, half birds not to be confused with harpies), who were commonly depicted on Greek funerary monuments guarding the gates to Hades, etc. These were the same Sirens who lured sailors to their watery graves with their tantalizing song. Orpheus, who was on the quest for the Golden Fleece, out sang the Sirens when the Argos sailed by their shore. Lorne singing to sleeping Faith?

Orpheus, after he began his career as a talking head, ended up on the isle of Lesbos. Sapphic poetry anyone?

[> [> Faith = Persephone, or Connor = Persephone? -- Scroll, 19:56:40 03/20/03 Thu

Faith weeps for Angel and herself while she's "in the barrens", as Lorne calls it. So Faith is Persephone, abducted into Angelus' hell? And maybe Willow is Hecate, and Connor is Kore, the innocent maiden/youth? Or is Connor also Persephone, drawn into hell by Evil!Cordelia?

Dante parallels her (Persephone) with Medusa in Inferno when the Furies attempt to summon Medusa at the Gates of Dis.

And I'm reminded that Lilah gave Wesley a copy of Dante's Inferno way back when. So Willow is also Persephone/Medusa because the Furies/Fred summoned her at the Gates of Dis?

Eh, don't mind me. I really have no idea what I'm talking about. Never read Inferno. But I like Manilow as Orpheus, reducing Angel and Angelus both to tears -- though for different reasons, of course : )

[> [> [> Inferno reprise (spoilers for Orpheus) -- fresne, 21:03:20 03/20/03 Thu

Ah, yes, the copy of Inferno. One of the most apt literary references ever. Count Urbino frozen in vengeance. The father devouring the son(s) parallels. With six eyes Lucifer weeping trapped by his own behavior. Good stuff.

Anyway, re: reading Inferno...well, if you want to feel like you have read Inferno, in a blatant piece of self promotion, try last year's Dante and Virgil's wild and wacky, yet Efficacious, Adventures in the Lands Buffalonious, Angelic, and Britannic, with some small appearances by familiar characters: a Comedy in 3 parts (three parts each,sortof) It's fanfic with footnotes. And who doesn't love that?

Anyway, perhaps Faith is Euridice, drawn too early from life. It's just that this time, she rescues herself from Hades. Not held back by brooding on the past (i.e. looking back) I want to say that Wesley is Hades who must learn to smile and weep and hand slap, which may be stretching things, but I'm a flow diagram queen so, eh!

Cordelia is the Siren, deadly with knowledge past and future (the sirens had that power, as all the dead have), sitting on the shore. Connor is the sailor, who hopefully will not soon be home from the sea.

[> [> [> [> My God -- stick figures!!! -- Scroll, 21:54:17 03/20/03 Thu

Thank you so much for the link. I opened it up, clicked "Previously", and promptly burst out laughing. Stick Figure Dante! I will read this fanfic, and learn about the Inferno, and hopefully return to this board enlightened and typing in the original Tuscan.

Of all the literary references we've seen on Buffy and Angel, I love the Inferno and "The Second Coming" allusions best. They're just so fitting with their ominous descriptions of doom and despair. Cordelia is the sphynx, moving its slow things, who will soon be rocking the cradle. And I think I agree that Wesley needs to learn to laugh and weep and hand-slap in his private hell. His awkward sharing with Willow seems to have given him a new perspective -- though I still want some angst, especially regarding Cordy killing Lilah. AD does angst so well... ;)

[> [> [> [> It takes an ATPoer to write fanfic with footnotes! -- Masq, 09:11:01 03/21/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> This is just too delightful! -- Masq, 11:30:08 03/21/03 Fri

I laughed! I cried! I clicked on hypertext footnotes with the delight that only one who makes them herself quite often can do!

Although... did you have to make Angel such a dork? 'Tis true, two people can look upon the same character and see very different things.

OK, now I'm starting to talk like the robed protagonist of this much-blessed piece of fic.

I'll go... back to work now.

[> [> [> [> [> Delightful stick figures or fiendish Tuscan plot film at 11:00 with Orpheus spoilers -- fresne, 11:58:02 03/22/03 Sat

And now, oh Voy demon, please grant my petition to post that I might profer thanks and response, as that mighty Voy daemon which makes walls to fall and wounds to ooze allows, my thoughts gently tack and turn to the net.

With my fingers skimming the keys like comets streaking to earth, oh, my I'm listening to Punk - Like a Prayer, my brain melting like goo before some goo melting thing.

Here then I make my intentions plain, it was my deepest desire that every character be in some way dorkish except Oz and Giles, even though he be barefoot. Personages are easier to write when they are but caricatures of themselves, stick figures writ large upon the page. Alas poor Angel, Angelus, Liam, so divided and subject to Ovidian metamorphosis. Cordelia sphinx slouching woman, glowing white eyed demon, opposed by dark eyed witch who changes by staying the same.

Imagine the debates in Limbo as varied philosophers of ancient clime debate their favorite ship and characters. No two indeed seeing through the same lens. But always long in exposition. Who is Orpheus, Ovid asks? Who is Euridice? Being a devout spoiler trollop, he knows what's up with Cordelia, but he'll never tell.

[> Confirmation on E!Cordy -- Veronica, 23:28:23 03/20/03 Thu

I don't know what is up with her crazy-creepy tassley outfit.

I am completely convinced that Cordelia is possessed.
Even Evil, she wouldn't be caught dead in that outfit.

-Veronica
(tongue firmly in cheek)

[> [> Yes, Evil!Cordy will, at some point, be a meal for Honorificus -- Pushy Queen of Slut Town, 17:37:58 03/22/03 Sat

Did anybody cattch....? possible Buffy reference/ spoiler for Orpheus -- Artemis, 18:51:31 03/20/03 Thu

Might have been mentioned but did anyone catch Evil Cordy saying, when she was trying to stop WIllow, " If only this was a few weeks later."
I got the impression she was in tune to the big evil in Sunnydale and knew Willow was going to be real busy. Just a thought.

[> Re: Did anybody cattch....? possible Buffy reference/ spoiler for Orpheus -- Cheryl, 20:34:11 03/20/03 Thu

I caught that, too, but I thought she was referring to the baby (or whatever it is) since it would be born in a few weeks and it was making it harder for her to do what she wanted to do. Don't know if that's what she meant, but it was my first thought.

[> [> Re: Did anybody cattch....? possible Buffy reference/ spoiler for Orpheus -- Duh., 20:49:36 03/20/03 Thu

Yeah, you're probably right. It seems obvious now. But it was fun thinking the other way.

[> [> [> oops.Above message from Artemis not 'Duh' This is why I rarely post. -- Artemis, 20:54:31 03/20/03 Thu

[> I got the feeling -- tomfool, 20:36:06 03/20/03 Thu

that she was saying that in a few weeks the 'baby' would be born. I think it's going to be a very accelerated pregnancy. Isn't CC due any day now? I wonder how that will play into the filming schedule?

[> another possible meaning (leading to a yucky thought) -- anom, 20:52:15 03/20/03 Thu

"Might have been mentioned but did anyone catch Evil Cordy saying, when she was trying to stop WIllow, 'If only this was a few weeks later.'"

I thought she meant when whatever is growing inside her is born, or maybe just further developed. Didn't she look at her belly or have her hand on it when she said that? I think what's slouching toward birth is linked not only to the newfound evilness of her heart but to her newfound powers. And as it grows, so do that evil & those powers. Or maybe just the power.

I wonder if the evil will leave her if/when that birth takes place, in a reversal of what would have happened to Darla if Connor had been born the usual way & taken his soul out of her as he left her body? Or will Cordelia remain evil & have a new partner--or pet--to help further her apocalyptic scheme?

Eeeewww, how about this thought: Whatever-it-is gets born & Cordelia is no longer evil...but it eats her (or tries to) as its 1st meal, just as Darla might well have done to Connor if she had survived, & been desouled by, his birth? Two yucky twists on placenta-eating!

[> [> and another yucky thought -- LittleBit, 21:16:16 03/20/03 Thu

I'm just hoping there's no reason to call the baby "Pebbles."

[> [> [> Re: and another yucky thought -- Convict 430019, 21:52:54 03/20/03 Thu

Odd flashback from my Xenaphile days.

Hope, the daughter of an evil god and a mortal, and her son, a grotesque blue demon who served his mother with unfailing loyalty--much like a pet.

[> [> [> Re: and another yucky thought -- HonorH, 09:59:17 03/21/03 Fri

And this is a yuckier thought than Evil!Cordy bearing Angel's grandchild how . . ?

[> [> [> [> Why do I get the feeling that... -- Masq, 10:03:41 03/21/03 Fri

This child is no grandchild of Angel's?

[> [> [> [> [> You're just an optimist, Masq. -- Random, 11:37:48 03/21/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> It's just that -- Masq, 15:07:12 03/21/03 Fri

She's been working so hard at manipulating him, that I wouldn't put it past her to lie and say the child is his. After all, the thing Connor wants above all, even if he wouldn't admit it, is a family.

Now, maybe the child really is his. But then ME has the awkward choice of (1) rehashing the pregnancy/baby story line from season 3 or (2) getting rid of the kid so that they don't have to do (1).

Not a situation I see themselves putting themselves into readily.

Alternative theories: the pregancy has been faked by magic, or it's the Beast's kid ("Give Mama some suger"). Ewww.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good points -- Random, 08:11:23 03/22/03 Sat

Especially since: 1) the storyline has been leading up to the crisis you mentioned -- following the pregnancy storyline of S3 and being rather predictable; and 2)Do we really need both a son and a grandson? An Angel Clan? Too Hardy Boys, really. I'm gonna go with the Beast's little grubling (eeewww! but no worse that the hacksaw demon or whatever it was that got CC preggers way back.) Or perhaps it's less a baby than a hitchhikin' rider, a possessing spirit using CC to manifest in this world...say, the Beast's boss. I mean, the Beast storyline can't be over yet...not if I know my ME.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I like the hitchhiker theory -- Masq, 09:12:32 03/22/03 Sat

It fits in well with "Cordelia's" weirdness of late (Evil or not, pregnant or not, she's really getting off her rocker, losing the control she formerly had).

But in truth, I kind of don't like the whole pregnant Cordelia story line, but what are you going to do? Charisma is not only very pregnant, she's put on a lot of healthy poundage as well, and ME had to do something with that.

I sort of wish they'd handled it like they did Gillian Anderson in the X-files and just sort of hidden the pregnancy as long as they could and then disappeared the character for a few episodes. The difference is, I think Gillian Anderson was a relatively unknown actress and Scully was a new character, and the fact that she put on weight at the end of Season 1/Beginning of Season 2 wasn't something that needed to be commented on like it would with a long-time (vain) character like Cordelia.

Of course, they did tie Gillian's pregnancy into the story line. In ST: Voyager, Roxanne Biggs-Dawson (B'Lanna) got pregnant, and they just hid it from the camera somehow. When her character finally got pregnant, it was several years later.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Probab;y the most original way of solving the pregnant character problem was on Frasier. -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:48:43 03/22/03 Sat

The actress who played Daphne got pregnant, but she was just beginning her relationship with Niles, so the writers didn't want to do a pregnancy storyline. In order to get around it, they developed a storyline where Daphne just got really fat due to Niles constantly pampering her with food. This excuse covered up most of the pregnancy. When she finally got too big for it to be believable she had just put on some weight, they shipped her off to fat camp for a while. I think that may be the only time a TV show has gone that route with a pregnant actress, but I could be wrong.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Another interesting one was... -- Rob, 10:59:47 03/22/03 Sat

...on "Married With Children," although this was more of a sad thing. Katey Segal became pregnant, and they had her pregnant on the show. But later on, she miscarried, so they explained this in the story by doing a bit of a "Dallas" parody and having the whole season be a dream.

A great pregnancy cover-up was on "The Nanny," where they mocked the TV conventions by having one character say, "Don't you hate it when on TV shows they always hide obviously-pregnant women behind large props?" And then, a second later, the woman who played C.C. (who was pregant in real life at the time) came in carrying a huge poster, covering her belly! Little gags like that were peppered throughout the season and, when she was very far along in the pregnancy, they said that the character had a nervous breakdown and was shipped off to a psychiactric ward for a few months, the reason being the nanny, Fran's, relationship with Maxwell, the man C.C had wanted for so long.

Rob

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> How about anotther one -- M., 19:31:28 03/22/03 Sat

My favourite was when on Star Trek Deep Space Nine the doctor had to perform an emergency operation and transfer the foetus from Mr. Keiko O'Brien to Major Kira. Nana Visitor didn't need to hide her pregnancy at all.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The DS9 'foetal transport' plotline was a stroke of genius. -- cjl, 20:05:46 03/22/03 Sat

They got so much mileage out of it:

They had Kira re-considering her life as a rebel and a warrior while bringing a new life into the world; she had to deal with Chief O'Brien as he went into overprotective mode, and the two even developed a weird attraction (which they instantly squashed like a bug); they explored all the odd medical conditions associated with Bajoran pregnancies; and then, of course, there was the in-joke....

Dr. Bashir was the physician who performed the foetal transport. He got Kira pregnant.

Did it in real life, too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That was a good way to handle it -- Masq, 20:55:24 03/22/03 Sat

One actress is pregnant but it's another "character's" baby. They got mileage out of it as well because of the exploration of surrogate mother issues--Kira's attachment to Yoshi before and after his birth.

And I always had warm fuzzies about that pregnancy because Nana Visitor (Kira) and Al Siddig (Bashir) were the parents in real life. It'd be like a story line where Willow got pregnant somehow, and we all knew it was Alexis Denisof's baby in real life. I like when actors on a show have real life relationships with each other.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sadly I must inform you... -- skyMatrix, 23:13:46 03/22/03 Sat

That those two (Saddig & Visitor) are no longer together! I would know if I didn't lurk on trekbbs.com occasionally (but only on the DS9 board, of course). Sorry to be the bearer of ill news! Hopefully Hannigan & Desnisof will fare better.

Carl

[> The reason she said that... (educated guess speculation) -- ZachsMind, 13:49:32 03/22/03 Sat

The baby in Cordy's belly will be ..uhm, er.. ripe? By then. It's growing at an accelerated rate, and whatever it is probably woulda been able to handle Willow a lot better than Cordy can. However it won't be THAT ready for a few weeks yet. Probably just in time for the Angel season finale. This was NOT a reference to the big bad in Buffy, but the potential big bad in Angel, which should put The Beast to shame.

[> [> Agree..that was my reaction as well...plus, of course, the obligatory metanarrative in-joke -- Random, 08:40:54 03/23/03 Sun

[> My take on the comment-- Spoiler-free speculation -- Q, 08:56:38 03/23/03 Sun

I think with this, and last weeks comment about being in a "warm" place it becomes obvious that Cordy isn't the evil one...

The Baby is. The unborn baby is the one talking to Angel, and talking through Cordy. Thus... In a few weeks it will have it's own form, OR just be more developed and stronger.

Just my opinion. The only problem I am having is that the Beast showed up BEFORE the Connor/Cordy sex. I can explain this in two ways:

1) The "evil" was in Connor the whole time, the beast showed up--connected to Connor. His semon was in touch with the beast, and soon the fertilized egg became the beasts master.

2) Connor isn't the father at all! Maybe Cordy was impregnated at another time, and slept with Connor to make a cover story. We all saw Cordy kissing the beast and "getting some sugar". Maybe the beast is the father. Or something else.

Just my opinions.

What are you watching? -- Brian, 21:40:25 03/20/03 Thu

I was thinking tonight that mid-season replacements are in full swing, and I wondered what people are watching. Here's my new (old) list:

Buffy and Angel are still 1 & 2 always and forever

Sunday: Boomtown - even though they've dumbed it down
Dragnet - I'm surprised how fresh and inventive the show is - I tape it to watch after Boomtown
Alias -tried it for three weeks - just don't like it

Monday: Midsomer Murders on A & E - British mystery that never fails to entertain
CSI - Miami - even though I hate myself for watching it
Veritas & Miracles leave me cold

Tuesday: Smallville - show just keeps getting better and better

Wed: Law & Order - after 11 years, it's still involving.

Thurs: CSI - Still a great show
Without a Trace - good show that I had to warm up to

Fri: John Doe - It's been uneven lately, but still a fun watch.

Sat: I read a book or go to the pub and drink Guiness.

[> Wolfhowl's TV Habits -- Wolfhowl3, 22:48:24 03/20/03 Thu

Sun: Nothing (for the Simpsons have been garbage for the last few years)

Mon: Everwood, (it's a great show)

Tues: Buffy and Angel (of course)

Wed: Enterprise, (I'm a huge geek) and The West Wing

Thurs: Work til 9 then sleep

Fri: Work til 9 then sleep

Sat: Role-playing with the Guys.

I'm guessing with the end of Buffy, and Angel's future still a little uncertan, that leaves a fairly large hole in my TV watching life.

Wolfie

[> Re: What are you watching? -- grifter, 02:24:41 03/21/03 Fri

Here�s the stuff I download:
Buffy s7
Angel s4
Six Feet Under s3
Alias s2
24 s2
Miracles s1

The stuff they show around here is mostly not worth watching. I like to have the tv running while at the computer, but the only austrian/german show I try to catch every episode of is the Harald Schmidt Show.

[> What looks good!! -- neaux, 04:02:32 03/21/03 Fri

I'm interested in checking out TREMORS: the Television Series on Sci-Fi next week.

the movies were good, so I think this could too!!

[> Giving this a go . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:47:30 03/21/03 Fri

Daily: FX Buffy reruns or TNT Friends reruns, UPN Seinfeld reruns at 9:00, sometimes the Tonight Show

Monday: Night: Yes Dear (though its quality's been slipping) and Everybody Loves Raymond (still funny)

Tuesday: BUFFY!!! After that, there's Frasier (always good for a chuckle) and the new sitcom A.U.S.A. (surprisingly good for a mid season replacement, though I'm pissed that they got rid of Hidden Hills).

Wednesday: ANGEL!!!

Thursday: Friends (the first half of this season was really bad, but it's picking its trademark humor back up again)

Friday: John Doe (a fun detective show with an unusual premise)

Saturday: Rent a movie.

Sunday: The Simpsons (or, if it's a rerun, I'll tune in to Charmed)

[> [> Oh, forgot Oliver Beene -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:45:21 03/21/03 Fri

It's the new show that FOX is showing after the Simpsons. It's only had two episodes so far, but has been very funny in both of them. It's use of a narrarator looking back on his childhood years reminded me of the deeply funny "A Christmas Story". Also, while it is a family show, the touching, sentimental stuff has so far been given maybe thirty seconds of screen time in each ep. The main focus is on a bunch of great jokes and dialouge that are usually just this side of cartoonish.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Cactus Watcher, 06:07:24 03/21/03 Fri

Sunday - Buffy reruns, and Dragnet. I still think of it as Dragnet with Children and keep expecting cheap jokes about Peg and shoe stores, but it's rapidly becoming a favorite of mine. Alas, I still find Alias nothing, but annoying.

Monday - I'm still giving Miracles a chance, but it's isn't ME quality. Veritas is just for kids and I've lost interest in it.

Tuesday - Buffy

Wednesday - Angel off and on. It isn't holding my interest consistantly. I guess I don't really relate to any of the regulars anymore.

Thursday through Saturday - nothing since Firefly went under.

Weekdays. I watch the news magazine Primer Impacto on the Spanish language network Univision. Then the local news and national news on whatever station I'm favoring at the moment.

Except for occaisional sports to pass the time. That's about it.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Corwin of Amber, 09:42:25 03/21/03 Fri

I really don't watch that much TV. Buffy and Angel. CSI and Without a Trace on thursday. I watch 24 intermittantly. I used to watch Farscape, til they cancelled it and my boycott of the scifi channel began.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Purple Tulip, 12:00:01 03/21/03 Fri

Sunday: Charmed 8:00 pm
Alias 9:00 pm

Monday: Boston Public 8:00 pm
Road Rules 10:00 pm

Tuesday: Buffy, of course 8:00 pm
Smallville 9:00 pm
Real World 10:00 pm

Wednesday: Dawson's Creek, although I really don't know why
8:00 pm
Angel 9:00 pm and I'm a recent convert to this show
Sorority and Fraternity Life 10:00 & 10:30 pm

Thursday: Friends 8:00 pm
Scrubs 8:30 pm
Will & Grace 9:00 pm

Friday: nothing, bar night
Saturday: nothing, bar night

Plus I still like to watch the Buffy reruns on FX when I can, and All My Children, One Life to Live,and General Hospital during the day when I'm not at class or work

[> Board Now! -- cougar, 16:46:43 03/21/03 Fri

I felt like Willow, back from Engand. Couldn't see the board, it couldn't see me. I sincerely hope this actually posts.

I watch Buffy (season 3 and 7 momentarily)
Angel, since it ties in to Buffy

The Soprano's
As time Goes By (gentle British comedy with Judi Dench)
The Darling Buds of may (also a GBC)
Charlie Rose
What the Romans Taught Us and various other docs about ancient civilizations when I catch them.
Midsommer Murders, or things like Cracker,Touching Evil (or anything else with Robson Green), Jonothan Creek etc

Then there is the mindless channel trolling...

I used to watch Frasier, loved the whole Niles/Daphnae tension, but they seem to have stopped growing as characters.

What I'd really like to see is a back to back airing of ASH's Tasters Choice(?) commercials, on a rainy afternoon. ;o)

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Alison, 19:52:01 03/21/03 Fri

Buffy, Angel, and occasionally reruns of Buffy on FX...was trying to watch Alias, for Micheal Vartan's sake, but I couldn't get in to it...its OK, but has so little depth comparativly speaking, and the way violence is handled on it bothers me.
I have to ask, how do so many of you have so much time to watch TV? I rarely have time for the board (I make time though), and often have to tape Angel and watch during a free moment..how can you manage to watch TV every night during the week?

[> [> Time for TV -- meritaten, 01:29:33 03/22/03 Sat

I videotape most shows and watch them when I need a break from studying. A friend of mine does the same thing, except that she watches about six hours straight over the weekend, and I usually watch a bit of TV before going to bed - it helps me unwind. Sometimes i don't get through all the shows. Ones I particularly like, I put on separate tapes and keep them. I catch up when I can - I still have a tape of Stargate of which I've seen very little.

Buffy and Angel, however, usually get watched as they show. I've got to be prety busy not to watch!

I often cook and eat dinner during my shows (even Buffy and Angel) so that I get to see them without getting too far behind in my studies.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- meritaten, 01:22:27 03/22/03 Sat

OK, right now, I'm traveling through India, so what I watch depends on what is shown where I am. However, I have been watching reruns of

Queen of Swords
Mad about You
Seinfeld
Roswell
THe NExt Generation
Voyager

I have no ida what shows when back in the US right now, but if I were there I would be watching:

Buffy
Angel
Gilmore Girls
Smallville
As Time Goes By
Another British Comedy - something about Appearances
- main character is Hyacynth.
Andromeda
Stargate SG-1
Perhaps Charmed, if I can find time

I have actually been wondering what people here thought of a couple of these shows - Andromeda, Staraget SG1, and Gilmore girls. Also the Queen of Swords which never really got a chance as it was shown at weird, constantly shifting hours. It is getting amuch better shot here in India as it is shown prime time. A shame it was cancelled after only one season. I enjoy all of these shows, but just kind of wondered what others thought of them.

THanks.

[> [> You're thinking of Keeping up Appearnces -- CW, 06:37:22 03/22/03 Sat

Which keeps showing over and over on PBS. It's certainly a jewel, but with British TV seasons being so short, it doesn't take long to see it all.

Gilmore Girls isn't my cup of tea, but the critics are only divided on whether one should tape Buffy while watching GG or tape GG while watching Buffy. They love them both.

Personally can't get too deeply interested in Andromeda. It's the same old Roddenbury formula in slightly different costume. I really like the Stargate movie, but the TV series just chases it's own tail trying to keep the action up. Nothing really wrong with it, but like Xena if you've seen one season you've seen them all.

Queen of Swords wasn't horrible, but let's face it, it's Zorro with a female lead. If you care whether Zorro is male or female, maybe it's special. Otherwise it's the same old same old, except that the damsel-in-distress frequently has to rescue herself. The attempt to make it emotionally loaded largely failed. Where the folks who did Xena understood how much of that the average man or teenage boy would put up with without deciding to switch from sexy woman hero to the ice hockey game, the folks at Queen of Swords overdid it.

[> [> [> Re: You're thinking of Keeping up Appearnces -- meritaten, 02:01:32 03/23/03 Sun

Hmmm.

You seem to rate Xena above QoS, which surprises me. I grew tired of Xena fairly quickly, but I really enjoyed QoS. To be honest, I started watching it for the scenery, but quickly became interested in the story. I thought Montoya (sorry, don't know the correct spelling) made a great villain, and Dr. Helm, with his secret past, was an interesting character as well. While I know the story of Zorro, I didn't see much of it (was it a series or just a movie? - growing up my mother thought is was bad somehow, so I really don't know much more then the general plot). Perhaps this allowed me to better enjoy QoS.

I didn't care for ANdromeda at first, but once I got used to seeing "Hercules" on a spaceship, I warmed to the show. I wouldn't classify it as a great show, but I find it enjoyable to watch. However, I think it deteriorated somewhat after the Commonwealth was restored. GRanted there is still a lot for them to do, but the plot seems to have lost direction. I was still enjoying it at the point where I left the country, and hope to still enjoy it once I return. ...but the show could stand a moe focused plot goal.

I can't even say why I like Gilmore Girls so much, but I find it fresh and interesting. Perhaps I am jealous of one mother-daughter elationship while relating to the other. Not sure if that is it, but I do enjoy the show and hope to catch up during summer reruns.

Thanks for your response. I respect the opinions of the people here and am always curious to hear their thoughts on various topics.

[> [> Andromeda -- Doug, 16:50:54 03/23/03 Sun

I used to love Andromeda, it was the first show that I was in online fandom for. The first season was great and the Second Season had some excellent episodes, but midway through the second season the quality of the episodes took a dive. There where still some good ones at the end of the season ("The Knight, the Devil, and Death" and "Immaculate Perception"). The third season has been atrocious, and I'm not watching anymore.

So, who are your favorite Andromeda Characters?

[> Re: What are you watching? -- dub, 07:44:29 03/22/03 Sat

Monday: Midsommer Murders (or other A&E mystery), Miracles (when it's on, grrrrr)

Tuesday: Buffy, Angel (Yay, Canada!)

Wednesday: nothing

Thursday: Survivor (go ahead, despise me), CSI

Friday: maybe John Doe, but I keep forgetting

Saturday: nothing

Sunday: nothing

[> Re: What are you watching? -- LadyStarlight, 08:18:53 03/22/03 Sat

Monday: Buffy (seconding dub's Yay Canada!)

Tuesday: Angel (YC!)

Thursday: Survivor (it's trash, but while it's on, I'm involved)

F/S/S: if there's a movie on one of the movie channels I want to see

Note: B/A are the only shows I care about enough to actively seek control of the remote.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- ZachsMind, 14:06:58 03/22/03 Sat

Zach's List. =)

[> [> Oh, forgot this in my post too: also watch Mister Sterling -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:04:46 03/22/03 Sat

Which surprised me as shows centered around politicians, doctors, or lawyers have never held my interest before, and here's one I like that's titular character fulfills two of the Dread Three!

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Tyreseus, 15:09:17 03/22/03 Sat

Wow, interesting that so many board members have similar tastes. I guess that's not so unusual though.

My list...

Sunday: I do the whole "Easyview" line-up on WB, from Everwood to Charmed.

Monday: Rarely ever home to watch TV, but if I am, I'll catch Boston Public and/or Miracles

Tuesday: Buffy, followed by at least one repeat viewing on tape.

Wednesday: Angel, followed by at least one repeat viewing on tape.

Thursday: Again, rarely at home, but I'll watch Friends and Will & Grace if I'm bored.

Friday: Bar night
Sat: Bar night

Misc: Since my schedule varies widely from week to week, some of the other shows I catch if I have time include Smallville, Mutant X (the X-Men rip-off with incredibly hot guy... more shirtless Victor Webster please), Queer as Folk, and Simpsons.

More often, however, I'm drawn to my growing DVD collection (my most recent additions have been: Cruel Intentions, "O" and 40 Days/40 Nights - 2 out of 3 are obviously from the Josh Hartnett ouvre).

[> [> Re: What are you watching? -- yabyumpan, 00:27:19 03/23/03 Sun

Sat: Dark Angel - yeah it's pap but it's fun pap and I find I'm entranced by Jessica Alba ;-)
Also - Taken - the last episode was shown last night, I'll get to watch it today, it's been fun.

Sun: X-Files - the BBC are showing the very last double episode tonight. I've sat through the crap that's been S9 hoping for some payoff, I hope I'm not dissapointed, I'm sort of dreading it!

Mon : Jeremiah - not to deep but it does bring up some interesting stuff and i love Kurdy, that man is so cuddlesome
Alias - it was on tuesdays but it's now going to clash with The Inspector Lynley Mysteries so I'm getting a friend to tapes that for me as I'm taping Alias for her (thanks Rah)

Tues : nothing now they've moved Alias

Weds : nothing. I was watching Odyssey 5 but that's finished now and not renewed (boo hiss), still at least in the UK we got the last few eps

Thurs : BtVS & AtS and I watch it with great company and cakes! Nuff said :o)

Fri : nothing

That's pretty much it except I like to watch anything on Africa and most wildlife programes about Primates. Also try to watch/tape documentries about evolution/anthropology/ancient history/the human psyche. I'm interested in the why/how/when of humanity.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Kenny, 11:06:59 03/23/03 Sun

Buffy and Angel, but I skip reruns. That's pretty much it.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- WalkingGhost, 12:11:09 03/23/03 Sun

I only watch Buffy and Angel. On the off weeks, I spend my time reading on the boards and fanfic. Also, I am currently trying to figure out the Buffy RPG so I can run a game on Fourth of July for all my friends. It's been a long while since I have run an RPG.

[> [> Buffy RPG -- Celebaelin, 07:32:48 03/24/03 Mon

If you can't get your head round the BRPG rules and you know Call of Cuthulu (based on the books of H. P. Lovecraft) I always thought a Buffy based 'Cuthulu Now' campaign would work quite well (you might have to spring for the modern weapons resource books, or just re-name everything with a modern equivalent eg if you're going to allow firearms at all, call a Thompson sub-machine gun an armalite or whatever). It could be a bit bloody (or, interestingly, lots of the characters could end up going insane and being institutionalised) so spare pre-rolled characters to bring in might be a good idea but if it's only a one day thing nobody is going to get too attached to their game persona.

Don't forget to modify the rules to how you want the game to run for everybody but remember challenging and intruiging games are always better than a walk in the park - ("Prefer a walk in the cemetary really luv.") I suspect playing The (A?) Slayer might be a bit of a no brainer, maybe you should playtest the rules beforehand just in case?

Best of luck.

C

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Cheryl, 12:38:03 03/23/03 Sun

Mon - Fri: Buffy reruns on FX. I tape them and watch them before bed, fast forwarding over the scenes I don't care as much about (since I've seen every ep a few times now).

Sun: Local UPN airs 2 old Buffy eps (different seasons) so I usually catch those. Never miss The Dead Zone, although tape it and watch it the next day. I'm surprised no one else here has mentioned it. It's my favorite new show.

Mon: Nothing

Tues: Buffy, of course. And sometimes Smallville, although I'm not as into it as I used to be.

Wed: Angel. Used to watch Enterprise (when wasn't preempted for a game) and The West Wing, but now I don't care if I miss them.

Thurs: Friends, if I'm around.

Friday: Nothing since Firefly's gone.

Saturday: Nothing. Used to watch Andromeda but lost interest (But loved the ep with Marsters. If they brought Charlamagne back I just might start watching again.)

Overall, the television landscape is pretty dull, especially with so many reality tv shows, which I hate. And now with the war in my living room daily, makes me want more escapist fare than ever before.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- MsGiles, 03:00:45 03/24/03 Mon

Watched most of Taken, which has just finished on bbc2. I found it a bit slow, but enough interesting spin to keep me watching, mainly the clever weaving of fact, rumour and fiction. Found the characters a little thin.

Bit stuck otherwise. Couldn't get into Dark Angel, not enough plot. Never managed StargateSGI, seemed a bit mlitaristic, tho friends swear it's ok. Haven't really got into any of the STs since the original, Enterprise seemed worthy but I wasn't gripped.

Thought Xena was wonderfully new for the first few months, then got bored, found Buffy. That's a long time ago now.

bbc's got a buddism season on at the moment, avoided Richard Gere (I'll avoid Steven Seagal as well if he happens along), but caught a docu that was interesting last night, may be some more.

Catching up on Monkey, which c5 is repeating in the wee hours.

[> Re: What are you watching? -- Rob, 08:42:26 03/24/03 Mon

Sunday nights I watch "Six Feet Under" and tape "Alias," which I watch right after. (Btw, I tape SFU too, in another room.)...okay, I'll be honest I watch it later than night but right after...The Anna Nicole Show! Somebody help me!!!!

Monday nights I try to do my homework, but usually end up channel-surfing through bad shows all night.

Tuesday nights, of course, are Buffy. I would watch Smallville, but I usually spend the hour after Buffy thinking about the show, and I can't bring myself to start watching something else first.

Wednesday nights, again, of course, I watch Angel. I have a night class, though, so I tape it and watch at about 11 pm. So that's my only show that night.

Thursday nights I prove what a slave I am to pop culture and watch Must-See TV which, for something called "must-see" has become, in its old age, the lamest night of television. The formerly terrific "Friends" is now, IMO, a walking corpse full of actors playing characters they've all out-grown. There are still great jokes here and there, but this show, after a brief return to greatness last year, has sunk again. Then I watch whatever's on after "Friends." Btw, what is after "Friends"? I can't even remember at the moment! Boy, that must be a riveting show! lol. Then, "Will and Grace" comes on, a once-great show (IMO) which has devolved into a shrill, joyless cartoon. After watching the realistic, fully fleshed-out gay characters on SFU, it's hard to take these over-the-top, stereotypical queens seriously. Not to mention the fact that when the show began, Will was not like this. The joke was that he did not have any of the stereotypical attributes or stereotypical mannerisms of a gay guy, while Jack had them in spades. Now they both do and it really takes away from what used to be an important message on the show--that not all gay people talk, sound, and act the way most people think they do. Now, we have an episode where the two of them are trying to "gay" up a gay man who just came out but acts too much like a straight guy. Ugh. Then I actually shut the TV off. I have sat through the torture of "Yes, Dear" and "The Ladies Man" but I refuse to kill every last brain cell I have on "Good Morning, Miami." Afterwards, on comes ER, just for old time's sake.

Friday nights I now reserve for mourning the death of "Farscape." I don't do much but sit in front of the black screen of my TV, yelling "Frell! Frell! Frell!" at the top of my lungs.

Saturday nights I usually go to the movies.

Rob

[> [> LOL -- Arethusa, 09:00:59 03/24/03 Mon

Every Friday night at 7:00 I think, "I could be watching Firefly right now if it weren't for those @#$%^&s at Fox." Otherwise, I just watch BtVS and Angel, CNN, documentaries on archaeolgy, history etc, and interior design and DIY shows. (My house is falling apart.)

Evil kicks butt ('Night' and 'Day' with spoilers for later eps) -- KdS, 11:01:57 03/21/03 Fri

Sorry if this is more disjointed than usual - been spending all day in lectures and trying to persuade tutors to take me on for dissertations.

Another of those nights where the connections between BtVS and AtS seem too close for coincidence - the way both episodes largely feature our Heroes getting stomped, the way Angel's speech parodies Buffy's.

Re: Bring on the Night

If you're reading this in the archives, I watched this ep on the evening that the American and British forces invaded Iraq. Given the backdrop, Buffy's speech gives me more mixed feelings than ever. On one hand, it's better to fight back than wait for the Turok-Han to come and slaughter you, and there is an argument that in both of the last two seasons the Scoobies cost innocent lives by passivity and reaction. On the other hand, if you go actively hunting Evil, you'd better know when to stop (and consider the possibility that you might forget how to stop). I'd give good odds that that "I'll make the First show its true face and kill it myself" line will come back to bite Buffy. Who else thinks that the FE's final face will be Buffy's? While I'm convinced that "Joyce" in CwDP was the FE, I'm in two minds about the lower-key apparitions this ep. Is the warning that you can't kill Evil (or evil) wisdom or softening up? I do note a certain similarity to the posthumous credo of Holland Manners...

Briefer thoughts -

Juliet Landau had an absolute stormer this episode. More than any other FE apparition this season, she managed the incredible challenge of playing the role of another, inferior actor trying to copy your old performance. The moment where Spike insulted "Dru" and she briefly lost her accent and glared at him very rationally was chilling.

Again praising actors, Nicholas Brendon drew a huge laugh from me with only a facial expression for the second time this season - his wistfully hopeful look when Buffy talks about Angel killing himself.

On the downside, why the f**k can't ME check whether actors can actually do an accent before they cast them? I couldn't even tell if the girl who played Molly was meant to be Cockney or Australian. Whichever, it was literally painful whenever she was on screen. Does she die soon?

Having made many derogatory comparisons between BtVS's and Star Wars' views of redemption in the past, I was greatly pleased by Andrew's comparison of himself to Darth Vader in the last five minutes of Return of the Jedi.

As an Information Science student, I found Buffy's dismal attempts at web searching absolutely hilarious. I can't help thinking if this was a piece of apologetic metanarration on the series's somewhat naive view of the Web as Fount of All Knowledge in the past few years.

Very nice continuity from the CGI team on the huge monster form of the first that burst out of Willow's nose. I think it was identical to the one that it assumed to try to shock Buffy in Amends.

Finally, there doesn't seem to have been any explanation of the time wackiness in this ep. It seems odd that it's supposedly nearly Christmas, yet CwDP was dated October and less than 48 hours seems to have passed in internal time. Andrew's still tied to a chair, Anya's still in the same clothes as Never Leave Me (maybe other people as well, but Anya's was the costume I remembered. Wonder why ;-> ) Wood's apparently just back from burying Jonathan. Given the lack of any development, I think we have to assume this as just a joke on the irregular nature of US scheduling.

Re: Long Day's Journey

Very good ep. I think we have to face it, this plot really is a very silly and transparent device for bringing back Angelus ;-) Could the hints of the Beast controlling Angel be a reference to Spike being controlled by the FE in BtVS?

Cordelia definitely isn't possessed yet - she still reacts in a morally upright manner when no one's looking. I still believe my theory expressed a few topics down.

Once again, we have the scorching chemistry between DB and the actor who plays Gwen. Got to enjoy Angel's transparent attempts to make Cordelia jealous. Despite all his denials, Angel still has a thing for the not-too-evil Bad Girls. Question - if Gwen has the cash for that huge and richly appointed flat, why does she only seem to have one set of fetish wear? As I believe Rah suggested below, there's a definite hint of parallels between Liam and Manny - the midpoint between good and evil, totally human, somewhat preocuupied with sex... The continued sexual tension between Fred, Gunn and Wes was also fun to watch.

[> Contrived, but neither silly nor transparent (spoilers for Awakening, Soulless, Calvary, Release) -- Masq, 12:26:45 03/21/03 Fri

In retrospect, Wesley's "We need to talk to Angelus" doesn't seem as contrived as it seems in Long Day's Journey. First of all, in "Awakening", Wesley's decision gets questioned and debated. And though ultimately the AI crew decides to go with his recommendation, it is really a matter of desperation on their part--there is no other plan available.

And there is no other plan available because the situation HAS been contrived. By ME, certainly, but also by whatever Evil is inhabiting/passing as Cordelia. And despite appearances, KdS, I think this Evil is present and working hard in LDJ.

Basically, as I state in my LDJ analysis in the Evil Woman thread below, Evil creates a situation in which the gang is forced into a corner where the only viable choice seems to be bringing back Angelus--as briefly and carefully as possible. Steps in this plan:

(1) Bring on a big apocalyptic Beast. Massacre, massacre, massacre.
(2) disappear the sun, creating hell on Earth (OK, just L.A. for now)

Note: Evil!Cordelia claims in "Release" that (1) and (2) were done as part of her plan to bring forth Angelus. Later, she admits destruction is also an end in itself, but regardless... the AI group take these two events as their personal responsibility. They must find the solution, whatever it takes.

(3) Remove all information about the Beast from books (and memories) and records so the gang is desperate for information about how to defeat him.

Note: key word--"desperate"

(4) Tell Angel he met the Beast as Angelus even though he doesn't remember. Make this claim on the alleged authority of the Powers that Be so he'll listen.

This is where our alleged unpossessed Cordelia makes me suspicious. I have a pet theory her visions are not visions from the PTBs, and not even Angelus' real memories. Angelus later indeed "remembers" them, but popping false memories into his head is easy enough. In LDJ, Cordelia gets fed these "memories" supposedly by the PTB's and from them provides the one and only (albeit really not smart) solution to their Beastie problem.

(5) Mix in one arrogant, dark ex-Watcher ex-Rogue demon hunter who thinks he can bring Angelus back safely for a day and...

This is also key. The reason Wesley is the first to suggest the Really Not Smart plan is that he has started shifting over into that morally ambiguous "the ends justify any necessary means" place he fully inhabits in "Release". It is vintage Wesley, the same one who choose the box of Gavrok over Willow's life and sent Pylean rebels to their death to distract some guards. It goes beyond even those utilitarian choices, though, because Wesley is in a much darker place now.

(6) Then of course there's the final ingredient, not in LDJ, but in "Awakening" where a (supposedly not-possessed) Cordelia talks Angel into going with Wesley's plan despite his desperation not to do so.

And so they build a cage and arm the tranq guns and put Angel's soul in a jar in the safe. Wesley's suggestion is actually carried quite intelligently and prudently.

The only problem is, Evil!Cordelia is there to screw it all up. In Soulless, she makes them believe the plan went as planned. Talk to Angelus, get his info, follow through on his info, no success, time to put his soul back and we're none the worse. It should have worked, if it weren't for E!C stealing the jar with the soul and doing a "spell" that was supposed to bring back Angel but that instead only tricked Lorne into thinking it was Angel.

So yeah, it's contrived, but it's less awkwardly contrived in retrospect.

[> [> Slight misunderstanding -- KdS, 13:06:58 03/21/03 Fri

I wasn't suggesting that Cordy's "passenger" wasn't active at this point. Just that at this point Cordelia's main personality was still present and aware.

[> [> [> Correction noted. -- Masq, 14:45:53 03/21/03 Fri

But I'm actually suggesting she isn't

Figuring out whether the real Cordelia (1) is aware of what's going on, (2) can actually control her actions, and (3) is even there at all is what my big "EW" thread is all about. And I have to tell you, having seen all the episodes up to "Orpheus" about a gazillion times, I honestly can't say, in this episode or any other.

Just because she acts like Cordy, talks like Cordy, and reflects the moral sensibilities of Cordy, and does these things when she's alone (i.e., only the camera/tv audience is present to witness) doesn't mean she IS Cordy, or at least, doesn't mean Cordy is in control.

This is why I make some snide remarks to Rufus, our resident spoiler trollop, to the effect of, "So... what? Evil!Cordelia is just practicing staying in character even though all she's by herself, so she doesn't slip up and reveal herself when someone actually is in the room with her?"

I'm really letting the issue drive me batty, but I think it's essential to understanding how this whole situation is unfolding and what stake the real Cordelia has in it.

[> [> [> [> Spoilers for 'A New Man' -- Doug, 06:21:54 03/22/03 Sat

Remember what happened to Ethan at the start of "A New Man". He gives that brief speech to the empty room once Giles, Willow, and Xander are gone; but Giles pops back into the room and the beats him up. Maybe Evil!Cordelia figured she doesn't wat to be undone by lets say Gunn entering a room at an inconvenient time. (or any other character)

[> Re: Gwen's outfit(s) -- cjl, 12:32:47 03/21/03 Fri

KdS, my lad, you seem to have forgotten the Marvel comics rule of "bad girl" superheroines: they have one costume, they look incredibly hot in that costume, and they keep on wearing that costume until all the men in the audience finally get bored and look up at the face. Once we've achieved that breakthrough, THEN they can change into something a little less flashy....

[> [> So *that's* how you do it. -- Arethusa, 15:13:30 03/21/03 Fri

It's kinda irritating to talk with someone who's too busy looking elsewhere to look you in the eye.

[> Trying to preserve this thread untill I get home from work in the morning :o) -- yabyumpan, 12:45:55 03/21/03 Fri

[> Re: Evil kicks butt ('Night' and 'Day' with spoilers for later eps) -- yabyumpan, 23:52:33 03/21/03 Fri

Re: Bring on the night - just a few thoughts - I thought Giles was 'off' in some way. Very detatched. I also found putting all the responsability on Buffy to be pretty mean. I realise Buffy is 'warrior-in-chief' but surely they are all in this together to save the world. Wouldn't it have been better for everyone to sit down together and discuss options? For the responsability to in someway be shared? Especially as Buffy had already been so beaten down and demoralized by the by the Turok-Han. It can't help her ability to fight to have all that pressure on her. This is where you really see the difference between the SG and the FG. In L.A. pretty much everything is discussed between them and they work as a group with Angel being used as No.1 muscle. Even though he is 'leader' there is not the almost 'hero worship' you see on BtVS, they work as a team and so the pressure on him is less. Maybe it's because he's shown them just how imperfect he is, they may call him a 'champion' 'hero' etc but they and he knows just how much of a flawed 'Hero' he is. Maybe it's also because 'the mission' isn't just Angel's or about Angel. They are all commited as individuals to 'the mission' where as on BtVS they are mainly just commited to Buffy, or that's the way it comes accross to me anyway. On BtVS the focus is all about Buffy saving the day, the others may help with research etc and even back her up with slaying but it's Buffy who goes out on her own to fight the Turok-Han. How much more effective would Buffy have been if she'd had Xander and Giles to back her up and maybe a flame thrower or bazooka? In L.A. it's never expected that Angel should fight the Beast on his own but that's very much what's expected of Buffy. No wonder the poor girl's got an inferiority/superiority complex and spent most of last season wanting to get back to 'heaven'.

R: Long Day's Journey. I loved this episode, I felt almost bereft when it ended, I wanted MORE! I'm not even sure I can pin-point exactly why I loved it but I'll try -
Poor Connor, does he really have to get beaten to a pulp in EVERY episode? He just looks so fragile and vunerable.
Bad Cordy, at least apologise BEFORE you tell him to get over it!
Angel, what can I say, I've got such a soft spot for him I find it almost impossible to be objective.
(sarcasm font) Bad, bad Man-pire for having feelings and emotions! Get over it, there's plenty more fish in the sea! She only shagged your son fer christ sake!(sarcasm font)
Sorry, I just always think of him more as a man than a 'champion'. Of course, they were right and he did what needed to be done.
Loved Manny, Gwen was fun, nice to see the rest of the team working together with out to much bickering.
Lorne, what's up with him. Last year he was cheerleader for C/A shippers and now he's just 'there's plenty more fish in the sea'? I can understand Angel being too hurt to think there might be something up with Cordy for sleeping with Connor but Lorne's known Cordy quite a while now as well, I would have expected him to be a lot less accepting of the whole situation, to question if there might not be something amiss with his favorite seer.
I think there's probably loads more I could say about this episode but I'm knackered so I'm off to bed now ;o) It's deffinately my favorite episode of the season so far.

[> [> Something is amiss... (spoilers for AtS eps to date) -- Masq, 08:57:00 03/22/03 Sat

A Miss Cordelia Chase.

Yes, that's what I've been wanting the gang to notice already--that Cordelia is acting kinda strange. Sleeping with Connor? What's that about? In LDJ, only Lorne and Angel know this, but they just seem to accept it even if they don't like it.

Gunn makes a comment that Cordelia seems weirder, but he blames it on her hanging out with Connor, who as of this episode is their primary suspect for "somebody connected to the Beast."

Cordelia is diverting attention from herself right and left, pointing fingers at Connor, than Angel (at the end of LDJ). You can understand why people at this point didn't suspect her of anything.

And when she finally can't hide her weirdness anymore (behavior and pregnancy) she hides out in her room with only Connor as her liaison. You gotta wonder, though, why everyone's perfectly OK with her hiding up there. Sure, she got wounded by an arrow in "Calvary" and she fainted in "Salvage", but no one is going up to see her and they are not finding it at all odd that Connor is so staunchly preventing them from going up and seeing her. Well, they find it a bit odd, but they blame it on some squicky Connor-Cordelia relationship they decide they don't want to know too much about.

Does everyone's (Lorne, Gunn, Fred) blithely ignoring the weirdness that is Cordelia remind anyone of the way Cordelia brushed her hands of Wesley at the end of last year?

Connor is in some ways the ideal choice of someone to hide behind and manipulate because he's so FRIGGIN' naive. But rewatch "Orpheus" and count the number of quizzical puzzled lookshe gets on his face as Cordelia goes through her weirdness. Even he is starting to think something is strange about Cordy. But he has no frame of reference for the way pregnant women should behave and he is so easily manipulated when it comes to family.

[> [> Why Buffy usually does everything alone. -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:24:26 03/22/03 Sat

The reason Buffy's friends rarely back her up in battle is mainly due to Buffy's insistence.

When she brought them along to stop the Harvest, she made it very clear they weren't supposed to actually fight the vampires, just get the people out. In "Prophecy Girl", she was the one who insisted on fighting the Master alone, even going so far as to knock Giles out to stop him from going. In "Becoming II", she made it very clear that Xander was to get Giles out of Angel's mansion, and that she'd be doing all the fighting. In Season Three, she often went patrolling with Faith and Angel, but never with the other Scoobies. And, when she had to go up against Faith in "Graduation Day I", she never even asked the others to come with. In "The Yoko Factor", Buffy actively told Willow and Xander not to come with her in battling against Adam, even after they volunteered. In early Season Five, she was disapproving of Riley going patrolling when it wasn't with the rest of the Scoobies as a group thing. In "Seeing Red", she told all of them "I won't have to hold back" when going to go fight Uber-Warren, not "we won't have to hold back".

Fact is, it really seems to be Buffy's choice that she doesn't have the Scoobies acting as reinforcements. She feels that she can handle herself in battle, and doesn't want to bring the others into it because she has a very legitimate fear that they'll die. If the Buffy movie can be taken as quasi-canon, this feeling most likely stems from the fact that Merrick, her first Watcher, was killed by vampires. She has been open to people fighting with her before, but usually reserves it for those like Faith, Angel, or Spike, who are powerful enough to not get themselves killed.

Also, there have been times when Buffy has fought with the whole Scooby Gang backing her up. Battling against Glory in "Blood Ties" and "The Gift" comes to mind. Also, since the Scoobies managed to find Buffy in "Bring on the Night", I took it that they were following her as she chased after Annabelle. If they'd caught up with her while she was fighting the Turok-Han, I think they would have joined in (though, it most likely wouldn't have done much good).

[> [> [> I don't think she does -- Sophist, 15:33:25 03/22/03 Sat

The more I think about it, the more instances I can think of where 1 or more of the SG are fighting alongside Buffy (I include magic use as "fighting"). This was less true in S1, but even there we have Xander, Giles, and Willow in The Harvest; Giles in The Witch; Xander in The Pack; and Xander again in PG. These are all off the top of my head.

In later seasons, I'd say that more often than not, someone from the SG fights alongside Buffy at some point in the episode. So yes, there are occasions when Buffy insists on going alone, but aid by the SG is more common.

[> [> [> [> Re: I don't think she does -- yabyumpan, 22:37:23 03/22/03 Sat

You're probably right. I'll have to watch the episode again but my main feeling when responding to KdS's post and remembering the ep was the impression of all this pressure on Buffy and of her going out to fight alone. That's the main thing that stayed with me after watching.

Pain (Angel Odyssey 3.13-3.16: Part One) -- Tchaikovsky, 16:10:22 03/21/03 Fri

Three episodes rising to the raw power of Angel grovelling in abject misery at having lost the one thing that he thought he had done right in his life. Betrayal, fate, love, and inter-dimensional portals. Great stuff

3.14- 'Couplet'

A key question for this episode is exactly which two people are being coupled. I think it's one of those questions which actually has a very simple primary answer, and lots of little secondary answers behind it. The primary answer is in those written words. There's something about words in ink instead of proclaimed which adds an inexplicable certainty to happennings, and Wesley's tidy matter-of-fact blocked capitals, written over three lines, with two words on each, make the prophecy as simple as it can be.
The Father
Will Kill
The Son.
The subject, the action, the object. It could barely be simpler. The reason why it is an excellent climax to the episode is that Angel has just forfeited the other 'couplet' he had been considering, and decided merely to look after his son. And now we, the audience, an episode before Wesley and two before Angel, realise that his apparently easy choice is going to be far from it. We are left in discomfort as to what is to come, as Wesley is at the end of 'Loyalty', and Angel at the end of 'Sleep Tight'.

The episode is fairly breezy early on, almost to the point of being a little too slow-paced. Here are a few things I plucked from the bumblings:

-Are we supposed to assume that no-one other than Numfar has taken over Pylea. 'The charismatic leader did the Dance of Revolution'. I'm quite happy to believe this, even if I completely misunderstood the whole reference. Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. The crazy creator could be the King of a burgeoning Republic, couldn't he?

-The main parallel in this episode is of Angel with Wesley. Both are adapting to being rejected even before they really asked. It hurts them both, but both come to a decision to be gracious before the end of the episode. It appears that the status quo of the group might be maintained. Of course the irony is that although Wesley and Angel are having parallel journeys, and are both showing similar attributes of grace, emotional honesty and mental and physical strength, it is shortly to be their inability to understand each other which causes what may well be the most lasting wounds AI has ever suffered.

-Looking at the cases a little more closely: we first have the Angel/Cordelia/Groo triangle. Groo goes through several different versions of adversary to Angel in the episode, while never vacating his position exactly where Angel doesn't want him to be. Originally, we see how Groo can do what Angel feels he cannot. He feels once again that his vampiric essence is restricting him form being the true Champion. He, unlike Groo, cannot be the victorious warrior in sunlight. The very specific way the aftermath of the fight is shot, with the rest of the team cooing around him, and congratulating him on beingsuch a figurehead, reminded me very strongly of a couple of similar shots in 'Faith, Hope and Trick', where Buffy, shortly back from her summer's absence [pun not intended but noticed], sees Faith supplanting her newly-won role as the Slayer figurehead. Here Groo has become the Dark Avenger once again. And while he is given good advice from Cordelia, that Groo can never replace Angel, and that he is unique, it seems like a bitter pill to swallow coming from the woman who, (regardless of the reality), appears to have already made her choice. Now Groo is to Angel what Faith is to Buffy. Not completely, but remember we see Faith eyeing up Scott Hope. Groo even more successfully appears to take over Angel's life exactly when he thought he might just have the eveything symbolised by him with Cordelia and Connor at the end of 'Provider'.

-Two things knock Angel out of his annoyance. Firstly, we have the whole sucking tentacle debacle. Perhaps not the greatest or most original Monster of the Week, but it does an important thematic job. It allows Angel to realise that denying or maligning him self for his vampireness is precisely the wrong thing to do. Angel twice proves himself to be more qualified for the task than Groo. Firstly, with the skill of a more mature fighter, he counsels not to attack immediately. Of course Groo, the quintessential full frontal attack warrior, ignores the warning. Angel is shown to be more adept at fighting evil on his own turf. However, the more important aspect is how he defeats the monster. By not having a life-force, an energy coursing through him, he nullifies the creature's power. The very fact that he is a vampire has made him more useful than Groo in defeating the object. He has to use all of what he is to defeat it, not just deny a section in order to conform to a supposed 'ideal warrior' prototype. Because Groo, the 'ideal warrior' is not always more effective than him. The second consolation is Connor, the thing that makes him unique and normal and special all at the same time. What does it matter what Groo can do, when he has shown beyond argument that he can bring hope to the world?

-Simultaneously, we have the Wesley/Fred/Gunn triangle. One has to feel for Wesley. No-one else involved in the actual triangle understands how deeply hurt he is. And his only real confidant, Cordelia, is too busy living a paradisal dream with Groo to be grounded and supporting. And yet, like Dawn at the end of 'Potential', but without the pep talk, he gets on doing what is important- in two ways. Firstly, despite the pain the Gunn/Fred relationship causes him, as best friend of Gunn and suitor for Fred, he tells Gunn that the relationship is OK by him. That Wesley/Gunn scene is one of the most beautiful character moments the series has delivered. Wesley, deeply pained, acting as the protective older brother instead of letting his anger vent at the wrong target. The economy of words- a Whedon trade-mark. And secondly, we have his diligence in research, trying to find something on Connor. This is partly because, as we see Wesley's story co-inciding with Angel's, we see how important it is to Wesley for Angel to know everything about his son. But that's before the thunderbolt of the final shot.

-Groo dresses exactly as Angel. Cordelia wants Angel really, but without the complications. Doesn't she? I can't see the two of them coming back from holiday a happy couple at all, although I'm [always] willing to be surprised, if it makes logical sense.

A sturdy episode, if missing the excellence of the next or the sheer superiority of 'Sleep Tight'.

3.15- 'Loyalty'

Right. I need a very strong cup of tea. Frankly, whisky was required after 'Sleep Tight', but this was nerve-racking enough. Two things I loved about this episode. Firstly, that Mere Smith was given the opportunity to write a really crucial, turning point episode. She has done such wonderful jobs with somewhat inconsequentially placed opportunities so far, that the chance to really show off was overdue, and she provides a stunner. Secondly, that this is the first episode entirely dedicated to Wesley. When you look back through the last few Seasons, he's worked his way into being a wonderful character without really having any obvious show-piece episodes. He has portions of several excellent shows, but isn't given the time Cordelia or even Gunn have been. Here we really get inside his motivations, with wonderful results. In fact, this is so far inside Wesley's perspective that we actually see his dream at the start of the episode. A non-lead character getting a dream sequence is extremely unusual, (outside the set-piece 'Restless'), with only the supreme Spike dream in 'Out of My Mind' immediately obvious to me, (that may just be my watery memory though).

-The dream sequence sums up the two things I highlighted from the last episode fairly succinctly. We have the slightly over-egged Fred and Gunn, (nicely hammed up by Acker and Richards), and then Wesley's desperate delving into the prophecies, only to learn that the prophecies tell of blood. It is an important point, I believe, that the blood is on his hands. Not Angel's. Angel drinks from the baby later, in a truly terrifying spectacle, even though we know by this stage it cannot be real. But it is Wesley who feels the responsibility. It's entirely illogical, but it is also a telling motivation for all his subsequent actions. He believes, sub-consciously at least, that having found it, he has become responsible for it happening. This is why he decides to hide it. Maybe initially he has the excuse that Angel hearing it would not be wise in his current situation (unjustifiable- he denies Angel freedom of self-determination which is so important), but by 'Sleep Tight', it is clear that telling Angel is the most sensible option. But he is wracked by guilt that Connor's death at Angel's hand will be his fault. Of course, ironically, in believing this, his actions become indirectly responsible for Angel's actual loss of his child.

-Watching Wesley slowly crumble in this episode is beautiful. The giant hamburger scene, while superficially amusing, is underneath disturbing. Of course it's a subversion. Smith is almost taunting the audience. Look how ridiculous I can make something and still make it tell uncomfortable tales. It's almost like the title 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'. It begs people who don't get the joke to misunderstand, and is not at all weakened by those who don't get it. But the portents, if campy and melodramatic, are powerful. Then we see Wesley on an apparently kamikaze mission, when he visits Holtz. Originally I thought, he we are at exactly the same point as 'Reprise' last Season, and here is Wesley mirroring Angel's descent into despair. I believe that parallel may still be intentional. With it, an interesting difference between Wesley and Angel is revealed. Because while Angel was so riled he was willing to take all hell on, Wesley actually comes to Holtz with an entirely sensible plan. To investigate and infiltrate. To sound out and try to decide just how trustworthy Holtz is. He comes to the decision that he does have some morality. He steps back, and returns to AI unharmed. Wesley's eternal catchphrase might just be 'Softly, sofly, catchy monkey'.

-Then there's the final couple of scenes with Wesley, and the most wonderful piece of writing again. Because we are fed the switch, only for it to be a mis-lead. Brilliantly perceptive viewers might not have fallen for it, but I certainly did. Here we are, with Angel happily with his baby in his arms, realising just how ridiculous prophecies really are. It's about living: making good decisions, having fun, singing, not regretting or over-analysing. He breaks into laughter, a laughter as powerful as Giles' in 'Grave'. When we here Giles laugh, we want to cry, (and I usually do, but I reckon you'd guessed that already). Because everything might just be alright. It's Whedon's laugh at a wondefully depressing Season. It's Giles' laugh at the ridiculousness of plot, and life. And Buffy, who is us, joins in. Here, Wesley can laugh. He can realise that these world-shattering events just seem like the campy melodrama of 'Dawn's a total klepto. Xander left Anya at the altar. And I've been sleeping with Spike', when stripped to bare essentials. It's about what moments of joy we can accrue, and the hope in Connor and in our own lives....
Then the turn. The respresentation of Hope, Life, Freedom nearly killed. The portents coming true exactly as claimed. Earthquake. Fire. Blood. And Wesley realises that this melodrama is painful because of the very real suffering. Angel's, Connor's his own. And, after being offered not a simple, trite ending but a genuinely hopeful one, perhaps what I'd call a Buffy ending, we are instead given the darker, more insistently powerful, more disturbing and thought-provoking one, as Wesley starts to crumble again. Superlative.

-There are also some other interesting character questions in this episode. What exactly does Sahjhan want? It remains a mystery.

-We have the fascinating droplet of Lilah's amnesiac mother. Why exactly? I've always liked the drawing of Lilah's character, just like Kate Lockley. It's been really tidily done. She is an intensely human character, even though she not only has the capacity for immense evil, but the routine inclination to it. But there's always that human side, the vulnerability, the cry in the wine cellar of 'For God's sake, help us!' This is part of the reason we see the scene. But also because Lilah's Mother has become her nightmare of existence. The harmless, confused woman with no control over her life. Lilah is a woman fiercely in control. Almost as if compensating for that lack of control in her mother. And, in a tiny, sad brushstroke from the writer, she hangs up hurriedly when Sahjhan appears. Her work will always be her priority, and may be something which will always keep her that touch less than a fully functioning human being.

-Aubrey, the mole who has lost her son to vampires, is a very tidy and beautiful way of explaining how Holtz was in a similar position to Angel. Angel really sympathises with her story, because his son means more than anything in the world to him. But Holtz, the man who lost his own son's to Angelus, also understands her. Holtz's revenge is going to be, as befits his character, completely Old Testament. 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life'. In this case, the knowledge of the life of a child. And Holtz's complete failure to realise the wrongness of his Melvillian monomania is highlighted by his lines to Justine. 'The world is not black and white. There is good and evil'. 'Angelus is Evil'. He understands how wrong it is to think in simplistic terms about the world, and yet when it comes to Angel, he has had a blind spot, inflicted by the pain of loss. I'm not going to even attempt to recall the Holtz's actore's name (beautiful but tricky to master), but his voice is really quite something. It has that resonance and yet, at the same time, a certain deadness in it. Good acting as well as fluky casting, I suspect.

Really brilliant, and yet still surpassed by the absolute ratings-buster, [yes you can rate 12 on a 1-10 scale]...

This post in two parts for length reasons only

[> More Pain (Angel Odyssey 3.13-3.16: Part Two) -- Tchaikovsky, 16:12:36 03/21/03 Fri

continued

3.16- 'Sleep Tight'

Well, I got pretty excited about that last one, so I don't know how much further I have to go really, but this is my attempt to summarise with as little 'Gah!'-ing as possible. Because Greenwalt is the King of 'didn't see that coming', and to pull it off in quite such a crucial episode, (these episodes are often Minear's domain), is a startling feat.

Oddly enough, I actually don't have many notes for this. I think it may partly be to do with the really marvellous plot-lines which required proper and full attention throughout. We start in the teaser with something seemingly marvellously irrelevant. The girl who suddenly turns into a monster in the middle of a Greenwalt-penned piece of music. The horrible out of the supposedly normal, which is exaclty Angel's perspective in this episode. Because while we have seen the mounting horror of Wesley's realisation in the previous episode, Angel, kept in the dark, [hey, they're not deliberate, promise], has seen none of it. That's part of the reason for the doting Father, which, while accurately portrayed and a necessity to offset the drama around Connor, I find wearing.

The changing girl turns out to be little more than a plot device, and yet once again adds questions. These are demons who pretend to lead normal human lives, but cannot stop their demon from occasionally coming through. Bingo to Angel, the vampire whose latent aggression and irrationality comes through at the same point in the episode. In short, blood-lust. Of course, as with most things in this most perfectly layered of episodes, this is deeply important for more than one reason, because, as well as allowing Angel yet another chance for self-examination, it finally pushes Wesley over the edge into believing the portents aren't lying, and that Angel is about to kill his son. Of course, the six word prophecy itself is not as clear as it seems. We still don't know certainly exactly who the Father and the Son are. Furthermore, although Death and Birth seem like the only two complete certainities of life, we have already seen this Season how the prophcy of No Birth was more a Macbethian prevarication than a reality, (forgot to mention that excellent line when I watched it- suffice it to say, Good Writing). Yet Wesley, as we can understand having seen his psyche, decides he has no option.

Simultaneously, we have Holtz and Justine preparing not for War, but for Vengeance. There's that line about Holtz not liking his drink in a Styrofoam cup. Trust Greenwalt, even at his most sad and gloomy moment, to inject that daft and wonderful humour. It also allows Justine and Holtz to bond in an important scene. Without this, the subsequent playing of Wesley seems without cause. We imagine Justine really believes she has been betrayed by Holtz. But if we watch this scene closely, it becomes clear that the mis-lead is readable. And so we have a whole complicated line of hurt loyalties. Wesley betrays Angel, with best intentions at heart. Then Justine betrays Wesley in turn, believing Hotlz's story that the child needs to be away not only from the vampire, but from possible spheres of influence.

And so, like the three-pronged viewing of Connor's birth, we here get a five-way perspective on the poor baby's continued life. Broadly dividing, we have Angel with Gunn, Fred and Lorne, Wesley alone, Holtz with Justine, Lilah and her nominal loyalty to Wolfram and Hart, (one important aspect of the title 'Loyalty' in the previous episode), and finally Sahjhan, the most mysterious of all. We wait slowly to see whose will will be done, and assess their different kinds of power.

1) Angel, Gunn, Fred and Lorne perhaps have the most honest quartet. They don't hurt each other, and are not a partnership of convenience. They have Angel, the one person who truly loves the baby as a baby and a son. Gunn and Fred, a broody couple, also have the understanding of the very humanity which aches through every pore of Angel's being when he has his child, even as a vampire. And then we have the ever-resident minder, Uncle Lorne, who has soul in so many different ways. This is clearly Connor's best environment, despite Wesley's doubt. If this group were to carry the day, it would clearly be the happiest ending.

2) Wesley has allowed himself to submit to prophecy and fate. He tried his best to resist it, but the way that supernatural urges toyed with his life in 'Billy', coupled with his aching loss of Fred and the events at the end of 'Loyalty' and then finally Angel's bloodlust, has made him decide that it will come true. His is the cerebral yet hunted outlook, and Connor with him might become a thoughtful and serious, if perhaps not particularly happy child. This ending would be deeply painful, but ultimately Wesley has shown a consideration and sense which suggests that Connor might be in a good situation.

3) The bureaucrats of Wolfram and Hart have very few qualms about anything. They have already mercilessly used Connor's blood to make Angel seem unsafe around the child. As usual, they had no conception of how complex the chain of events they threw into being were to be, and, as Lilah quips, there will be a load of admin to be done. Terminally incapable of getting the right end, and yet, by their very mission statement to carelessly do evil, this might be a worst case scenario for Connor. Because, while Lilah supposedly wants Connor alive, this is probably only because she is tempting to lure Angel to the dark side. How much easier to do so by torturing a child into which he has put all his ideas of Hope and Future. This would be a dystopian, Season Two ending, with the glimmer of hope that Wolfram and Hart's tendency to be unable to control eveything means that Connor's return might not be impossible.

4) We have the bittersweet ending as well. While we have been set up to find Holtz as a villain, and while his inability to forgive, and much more importantly, his need to act on his feelings of pain despite Angel's changes have made him clearly a deeply flawed character, I imagine that the scene with Holtz as Father, Justine as Mother, Connor as Steven and Utah as Home is supposed to make us think that Connor might well grow up in a twisted kind of happiness. It may not be natural, but precious few details of his short life have been. We are not supposed to take this perspective, because we are in Angel's journey, and his loss of Connor is the most painful thing in the world to him, but this might perhaps be the end of Shakesperian tragedy- with a shaft of Hope in the purged next generation, like Fortinbras at the end of Hamlet. Angel might kill himself with depression, but perhaps Connor can live to be a better person than Liam ever was.

Yet Greenwalt playfully avoids all four of these. The happy ending, the alternative happy ending, the classically prolonging ME ending, and the bittersweet Shakesperian ending. He opts for the wildcard. We pointedly know nothing of Sahjhan's motivations, and hence, if this were a murder mystery, we would be right to be suspicious of him. He is introduced merely as plot device for Holtz to arrive. And yet his even more callous demands than even W+H and Holtz, to kill the baby, win the day. It is mysterious, impossible to predict, and leaves with the hardest ending of all.

Gladly, however, this is serial television. We are left with some questions which need to be answered. The tabula rasa of Sahjhan as a character will surely be clarified, as will the wholly mysterious jumping into Quortoth of Hotlz. Does he do so because this is his only option in keeping the living baby away from Angel? In making him suffer the way he had to suffer over his apparently living vampire daughter? Or does he know more? Is he in fact still in league with the 'impatient' Sahjhan? So many unanswered questions.

What is clear is the exceptional finale to a captivating arc this episode is. Just a couple of loose ends here:

-Lilah is offered her way out of the femme fatale role by Angel, but she denies it. She is becoming her work even more. Is the humanity implied by 'Loyalty' a mislead? I doubt it. We just need a little longer for the pay-off.

-The Wesley/Lorne scene is perfect plotting- a wonderful scene. Wesley's singing to the baby indicates his real concern, and thus it is symbolic that his love for the child, and hence Angel, gives away to Lorne the story of his motivation. Twice he is shown to be not the perfect triple agent. He cares too much about Connor to take him without suspicion, (although violence avails him), and then falls to the apparent brokenness of Justine. Although he tries to act alone, doing so in a caring way is shown to be well-nigh impossilbe.

-The final four way scene, devoid of Wesley, really brings to corporeality the myriad different fates possible for Connor. It's a compelling scene not just for the 'What Happens Next?' factor, but also because it is clear that the scene is standing right on the cusp of fate. It's similar to Robin Cook's resignation speech in the House of Commons. Just for a moment, it seemed, unthinkably, that his eloqence might catalyse a rebellion, then a vote against war, then Britain forced to opt out, and so on. It didn't happen, but that's why it was powerful for me. Here again, the fate of many is being decided. and of course it is the helpless one, beset on all sides by selfish wants, (except possibly Angel's), whose life is to be most altered.

Wow, I'm starting to understand how OnM writes those wonderful posts after every episode. 4,000 words on these three episodes, and I still feel I haven't covered half of it. Thanks for reading so far. Surely Season Three can't get any better from here...;-)

TCH

[> [> Re: More Pain (Angel Odyssey 3.13-3.16: Part Two) -- Masq, 16:59:41 03/21/03 Fri

I could say many things in response to this post, but I realized they would all be spoilery, and I want to be with you when you discover what is to come. Of course, I realize you are somewhat already spoiled, so you can't live in the absolute angst I did last year after "Sleep Tight" (which of course came right before several weeks of reruns and episodes of "Gilmore Girls" instead of "Angel"), but I look forward to your reaction to future eps.

[> Just becaue Numfar demonstrated the Pylean dances doesn't mean he's the only one who can dance -- Masq, 16:46:11 03/21/03 Fri

Part of the reason Wesley hides the prophecy is the feeling of responsibility--he found the prophecy, it's his job to make sure it doesn't come true before he has to worry Angel with it. Wesley being a good, if misguided employee.

Another important reason that Wesley hides the prophecy is that, bit by bit, he has distanced himself from the others, isolated himself. He hides out in that office researching, protecting himself emotionally from the hurt that is Gunn and Fred.

He also has a desperate desire to prove himself to Angel and the others as a Good Man--angst left over from the events of "Billy".

Aubrey, the mole who has lost her son to vampires, is a very tidy and beautiful way of explaining how Holtz was in a similar position to Angel. Angel really sympathises with her story, because his son means more than anything in the world to him. But Holtz, the man who lost his own son's to Angelus, also understands her. Holtz's revenge is going to be, as befits his character, completely Old Testament. 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life'.

This is why I love Holtz as a villian. He sees his desire for vengeance and the consequences of it with completely open eyes. He KNOWS Angel is more than Angelus, because otherwise his method of vengeance would be pointless--you can't torment a soulless, loveless monster by stealing his child; Angelus wouldn't care. Angel, on the other hand, cares deeply, loves deeply, and that is why the vengeance will be satisfying.

This also makes his vengeance morally ambiguous because one can ask if this is even the same person that ruined Holtz' life in the first place. Holtz doesn't believe that, he can't, or the vengeance wouldn't be satifying. In some ways, coming upon a souled Angel was exactly what he wanted, because he was frustrated with his attempts at vengeance in the 18th century:

In 1800's Rome, he tells Angelus as he tortures him:

"My only desire here is to discover if a thing such as yourself can be made to pay for its sins. You're a demon. It is your nature to maim and kill. But you were also once a man. If we beat and burn the demon out of your living flesh, will there be anything left? Anything at all? I doubt it. But I'm willing to spend the next fortnight of my life finding out."

[> [> And yet... -- Tchaikovsky, 17:06:02 03/21/03 Fri

Here's something I missed in my 4000 word prattle!

He also has a desperate desire to prove himself to Angel and the others as a Good Man--angst left over from the events of "Billy".

Yes- and notice that Fred calls Wesley a Good Man in 'Billy', and Gunn [but to Fred], in 'Loyalty'. Everyone believes it. He just can't believe it himself.

Now when I say everyone, I've just watched the end of 'Forgiving'. Gah! If his confidence in himself is so low, I cannot imagine what Angel's actions will do to him!

And hey- it could be Numfar. Couldn't it? Please...?!

TCH

[> [> [> We all know that Numfar is God -- Masq, 17:45:42 03/21/03 Fri

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on "Forgiving". As I said, Loyalty, Sleep Tight, and Forgiving are one of the best threesomes of episodes in the run of both series.

What people noted after that episode aired as that not only was it important for Angel to establish that he was Angel, and not Angelus, before he suffocated Wesley, it is Angel, and not Angelus who would be driven to such a deed. It was a very human moment--utter despair. Angel becomes Holtz. He has lost his son, he has someone to blame, and he tries to kill that someone.

Except in his case, that "someone" was a friend.

[> Wesley's motivations (kinda long!) -- Scroll, 19:20:44 03/21/03 Fri

It is an important point, I believe, that the blood is on his hands. Not Angel's. Angel drinks from the baby later, in a truly terrifying spectacle, even though we know by this stage it cannot be real. But it is Wesley who feels the responsibility. It's entirely illogical, but it is also a telling motivation for all his subsequent actions. He believes, sub-consciously at least, that having found it, he has become responsible for it happening.

Interesting, I never thought of it that way before, that Wesley subconsciously felt responsible for (fulfilling) the prophecy just because he found it. I've always taken the dream as prophetic or foreshadowing "Sleep Tight". But I like your interpretation, it adds another layer of meaning.

Maybe initially he has the excuse that Angel hearing it would not be wise in his current situation (unjustifiable- he denies Angel freedom of self-determination which is so important), but by 'Sleep Tight', it is clear that telling Angel is the most sensible option. But he is wracked by guilt that Connor's death at Angel's hand will be his fault. Of course, ironically, in believing this, his actions become indirectly responsible for Angel's actual loss of his child.

I think the best parallels to Wesley's decision to keep the prophecy from Angel, and his later decision to kidnap Connor, are Xander's Lie to Buffy in "Becoming" and Giles' killing of Ben in "The Gift". Of course, we never really know Xander's motivation for lying to Buffy about Willow's message, despite continuous debates. He could've been trying to be the "good general" by putting Buffy's focus completely on killing Angelus. If she'd had the hope Angel would return, she might have (a) gotten herself killed by not fighting full-strength; (b) focused on keeping Angelus away from Acathla, thus negating the need to send Angel to hell. Like Xander's lie, Wesley's hiding of the prophecy is a pivotal moment in the Buffyverse.

But while Xander's motivations are often tinged with hatred/jealousy of Angel, we at least know Wesley's motives are good. This makes me sympathise even more with Wes, because I see three powerful, selfless motives for his actions: (a) keep Connor alive; (b) keep Angel from being his son's own murderer; (c) don't involve Gunn/Fred/Lorne because then Angel's hatred/anger will be for Wesley alone. Of course, none of his good intentions result in good consequences, and Wesley is certainly guilty of making a whole slew mistakes. Mistakes that stem from his withdrawal from Gunn/Fred, his belief in unilateral decision-making. Perhaps even his arrogance that kidnapping Connor to protect him was his decision to make. But Wesley's motives here remind me of Giles' killing of Ben.

From Psyche's, "The Gift":

BEN: She could've killed me.
GILES: No she couldn't. Never. And sooner or later Glory will re-emerge, and ... make Buffy pay for that mercy. And the world with her. Buffy even knows that... (reaches into his pocket, takes out his glasses) and still she couldn't take a human life.

Shot of Ben listening.

GILES: She's a hero, you see. (Giles puts his glasses on) She's not like us.
BEN: Us?

Giles suddenly reaches down and puts his hand over Ben's nose and mouth, holding them shut. Ben struggles weakly as Giles keeps him still. Giles keeps his calm expression throughout.

I see Wesley as wanting to save Angel, the Champion, from having innocent blood on his hands. More than that, he wants to save Angel from the dilemma Buffy was going through in "Spiral". In her catatonia, Buffy kept killing Dawn over and over again -- smothered her with a pillow, no less -- destined to always be her sister's murderer. Wesley couldn't let Angel become that. Giles and Wesley have a Watcher mentality foreign to everybody else in the Scooby/Fang Gangs. Unilateral decision-making is something they'll do if circumstances call for it.

Also, there's plenty to read into regarding Wesley's own history as an abused child, and perhaps his over-identifying with Connor as a child under the care of a dangerous father. I'd go into this more, but this post is already too long!

Then we see Wesley on an apparently kamikaze mission, when he visits Holtz. Originally I thought, he we are at exactly the same point as 'Reprise' last Season, and here is Wesley mirroring Angel's descent into despair. I believe that parallel may still be intentional.

Absolutely. Wesley is Beige Angel 2.0, and the parallels between these two remain subtle and subtextual (unlike Willow and Buffy's "addiction" arcs in S6).

I've always liked the drawing of Lilah's character, just like Kate Lockley. It's been really tidily done. She is an intensely human character, even though she not only has the capacity for immense evil, but the routine inclination to it. But there's always that human side, the vulnerability, the cry in the wine cellar of 'For God's sake, help us!'

It's almost heretical to say this since Lindsey was such a popular character, but I actually like Lilah a hell of a lot more than Lindsey. I found him too whiney and self-indulgent, while Lilah always took her lumps and remained professional (except in "Billy"). I liked the little tidbit we're offered here about her mother; that brief phonecall opens up a good deal of Lilah's character and motivation for speculation. I've always prefered Lilah and Kate to Lindsey.

Eh, okay I'll shut up now. :)

[> [> Re: Wesley's motivations (kinda long!) Spoilers for AtS to date-all of this season. -- Arethusa, 19:58:10 03/21/03 Fri

I haave a less charitable attitude towards Wes's motivations. I think fear of being wrong in front of Fred, Gunn, Cordelia and Angel also affected his judgement. I agree that he probably overidentified with Connor, afraid to take the slighest chance the baby would be harmed by his father. Wesley definitely has the Watcher arrogance, but that doesn't suprise me because probably the first and only place he ever received affirmation was at school. His watcher status was the basis for his identity and self-respect in his BtVS days, and he still adheres to its ways.

I liked the way Angel and Wes's roles as noir heroes were inverted in season 3. As Angel became progressively lighter in his happiness in being a father, Wes became darker. It's such classic noir that it's a joy to watch unfold. Wes becames alienated from his friends due to inherent flaws, which result in his morally ambiguous decisions. An evil, sexually charged woman entices him to fall further, while the innnocent girl is unatainable. Finally the femme fatale dies, giving him a chance to regain society. (I'm a big Lilah fan too.)

[> [> [> TCH-Don't read my above post! -- Arethusa, 20:00:23 03/21/03 Fri

[> [> Good points Scroll -- Tchaikovsky, 06:44:42 03/22/03 Sat

I'm a big fan of Xander, but in his most prejudiced, angry moods he can make some horrible pig-headed decisions, and I believe the Lie in 'Becoming' is the worst of them. Spohist and valheru have made a point that I was loth to give in on- that Xander's action actually probably doesn't affect the events of Buffy's fight with Angel, but nevertheless it is a breach of trust for no good reason. I see Wesley as both having better intentions for Angel than Xander did, and acting them through in a fairly sensible way. It may be that his inability to act the calm rational Watcher ultimately cost him though- first by showing affection to Connor by singing to him- and then for being worried about the acting Justine.

I think the 'The Gift' parallel is perhaps the better one, but of course, while Buffy ultimately achieved her aim Angel didn't keep his son. These are the rumblings which lead to the startling end of 'Forgiving'.

TCH

[> Re: Pain (Angel Odyssey 3.13-3.16: Part One) -- yabyumpan, 12:24:51 03/22/03 Sat

Re: 'Couplet' . I've just written a long response to this which got eaten by the voy monster GRRRRR ARRRRGH so I've just gone to the archived and copied something I posted when I first saw the episode, this is in response to:

Simultaneously, we have the Wesley/Fred/Gunn triangle. One has to feel for Wesley. No-one else involved in the actual triangle understands how deeply hurt he is. And his only real confidant, Cordelia, is too busy living a paradisal dream with Groo to be grounded and supporting. And yet, like Dawn at the end of 'Potential', but without the pep talk, he gets on doing what is important- in two ways. Firstly, despite the pain the Gunn/Fred relationship causes him, as best friend of Gunn and suitor for Fred, he tells Gunn that the relationship is OK by him. That Wesley/Gunn scene is one of the most beautiful character moments the series has delivered. Wesley, deeply pained, acting as the protective older brother instead of letting his anger vent at the wrong target.

I could disagree more with this, this is what I post when I first saw the ep:

'Couplet' and Wesley'streatment of Gunn and to a lesser extent Fred. He acted in a very underhand manner by sending Gunn out on a case AI wouldn't normally have taken, just to get Gunn away from Fred (who went with him any way). It was the scene towards the end, in his office, which really turned my view of Wesley around. He abused his position of authority and his supposed friendship with Gunn, by letting him know in a very cold way, that he thought he should have been with Fred and not Gunn. You can tell that Gunn is noticable shocked by this. I think this is especially relevant because of the conversation between Gunn and Fred at breakfast earlier.

Gunn: "It's funny."

Fred: "The way I chew?"

Gunn: "No. Until that kiss last night, I would have thought you and Wesley had a thing for each other."

Fred: "Wesley?"

Gunn: "Yeah."

Fred: "No, we're just good friends."

I got a definate impression from this that if Wesley and Fred had got together, Gunn would have been ok with it. I think Gunn looks/looked up to Wesley and would have thought that the better man had won. Also, if Wesley had made a move towards Fred, I think it's clear that he would have been rejected, she just doesn't see him that way, so Gunn inadvertently saved Wesley from what would have been a crushing humiliation. I also have big problems with Wesley pretty much dropping their friendship at this point, which shows how much all that bonding, special handshake stuff actually meant to him if he allowed a women to interfere with their friendship. I would imagine that Gunn was pretty hurt about that. He conscously withdrew himself from the pair of them.

Just to add to that, if you compare Wesley's reaction to F/G with Angel's reaction to C/G there is a big difference.
Although Angel shows petty jealousy - kicking the desk, comparing his hight, 'jogging could be a thing' etc - in his actual comunication with Groo he is generous and noble - re-assuring him in the tunnel that Cordy does want him, going with him to the demon brothel to get the potion, encouraging Groo to take the credit for killing the tree monster so he can look like a hero for Cordy.
Wesley, on the other hand, is very creepy and underhand - blocking out Gunn from his view when he's on the phone so he can only see Fred, sending Gunn out on a case they wouldn't normally take (errant boyfriend, even Angel was surprised Wesley accepted the case) just to get Gunn out of the way and as I said above, the IMO appalling way he acted towards Gunn in that last scene in his office. There was no need to let Gunn know that the he felt he'd lost out, all it did was to make Gunn feel uncomfortable and the dismissal at the end as a friend and employee makes me really angry. Look at the scene from Gunn's perpective, talk about raining on someones parade.

This was the episode which started my dislike of Wesley and made me loose respect for him. Suffering from sexual jeaousy is not romantic or noble it's just pathetic and destructive IMO. It caused him to pull away from Fred and Gunn, making him isolate himself and not share what he found which led to disasterous consequences. A season later and I'm still trying to like Wesley again :-(

[> [> OK, I definitely need to re-watch this scene! -- Tchaikovsky, 16:16:27 03/22/03 Sat

That's the most opposite response I've ever had to anyone ever! I truly thought while watching the scene that Wesley was being compared to Angel in nobly stepping aside. But I may well have my mind swayed on a second viewing. Certainly, while for me in the following 'Loyalty' and 'Sleep Tight' his actions are understandable, they are also wrong, disloyal and underhanded. Yet in 'Couplet', I really didn't see anything but a struggling Wesley coming through the pain. Those videos may come back a couple of days later than usual...

Incidentally, yes, it's official- I am still in last year! Seems ironic to me considering I am now watching 2002's episodes. But a correctly dated version will be included with the last set of videos. Sorry for any inconvenience.

TCH

[> [> [> Re: OK, I definitely need to re-watch this scene! -- yabyumpan, 22:32:11 03/22/03 Sat

That's the most opposite response I've ever had to anyone ever! I truly thought while watching the scene that Wesley was being compared to Angel in nobly stepping aside.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, as far as I can tell, I think I'm the only one who sees it like that(I tend to be in the minority with most things, esp were Wes is concerned!). I have BIG issues with jealousy, I can't stand it and run very fast from any man who starts to show it around me, so I think I'm much more intolerant when I see it in other people than most.

I'm in no hurry for the videos so take your time and no worries re: the date thing, I didn't notice either! BTW, would you like to catch up on BtVS S7 & AtS S4? I've been recording them 5 eps to a tape each, I can start sending them down if you like. With AtS esp, you really are not going to want to wait to see what happens next :o)

[> 'Loyalty' is my second-favorite ANGEL episode... -- cjl, 20:50:37 03/22/03 Sat

(After "Reprise," of course.)

The exploration of Wesley's mind, his anxieties, his jealousies, the twisted skein of his rationalizations, and the inevitable-but-didn't-see-it-coming double whammy at the end was beautifully done. Alexis Denisof officially takes over the series right here. He is the best actor on the series, bar none.

But the Burger Loa scene is what vaults it into the stratosphere. It's mystical, hallucinogenic and hysterically funny, like Hunter S. Thompson doped up on Piers Anthony.

And I've always thought Wesley's encounter with the Loa reflects the ME writers' state of mind during one of those marathon breaking session at their offices in downtown Dream Factory. It's 2:00 a.m. Joss, Greenwalt, Minear, Mere--they're blocked. They can't solve that goddamned third act, so they send Mere out for burgers and some caffeine. She zips down Century Boulevard and hits the all-night drive-in. She's been studying the outline for three days straight (just as Wes has been studying the prophecies), and her head is spinning so fast, it's about to twist off and fly into space. She babbles into that stupid intercom system, and then she gets this insane idea...

Wes' talk with the Loa is an amazing metanarrative moment, brilliantly concealed by its perfect placment within the plot.

FYI - Book Recommendation -- Brian, 08:24:28 03/22/03 Sat

I usually don't read novels based on TV characters since I burned out reading all the Star Trek paperbacks. However, I was intrigued by a review of Monster Island, the first crossover Angel/Buffy novel by Christopher Golden and Thomas E Sniegoski. It's a hardcover and I finally tracked it down in the teen section of Barnes & Noble. Go figure, as the novel seemed pretty adult to me, and very gory. Since it's in the teen section, its price is fairly reasonable for a hardcover (only $17.95). After a shaky start, (somewhat fragmented plot construction), it became an absorbing read with plenty of action, some strong emotional scenes, and good characterizations of the leads, with Tara and Spike being the exceptions. (Tara's thoughts/actions seemed more 4th season than 6th, and Spike seemed to be just humorless.) Its timeline is after Buffy returns and before the events of OMWF. Although it's over 400 pages in length, it's a quick read.

[> OT - to the people discussing Neal Gaiman last week -- Tyreseus, 15:26:14 03/22/03 Sat

Thank You!

After reading some of the positive comments on the board last week, I picked up Preludes and Nocturnes and couldn't put it down. Now my only problem is finding the money for the other 9 volumes.

Can't recall who had reccomended this (and Voy archives are being pissy to me) but thank you, thank you, thank you!

Ty

[> [> oops... 'Neil' not 'Neal' -- Tyreseus, 15:27:17 03/22/03 Sat

[> [> Enjoy! -- ponygirl, 07:17:46 03/23/03 Sun

Wait until you get to Doll's House or A Game of You... lots of good reading ahead.

[> Re: FYI - Book Recommendation - Keepin' the thread alive -- Next, 17:45:20 03/22/03 Sat

[> Re: FYI - Book Recommendation -- Rufus, 19:48:21 03/22/03 Sat

Golden and Sniegoski were two of the authors who put together "The Monster Book", the third Stephen Bissette. Great for info on monsters and demons on Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

Help, it's in Tamil! -- Celebaelin, 13:28:59 03/22/03 Sat

This might be relevant to the Sun deity thing I'm playing with but I can't tell, any chance of a translation?

3) Rama rama maha baho shrinu guhyam sanatanam
yena sarvanarin vatsa samare vijayishyasi

4) Aditya hridayam punyam sarva shatru vinashanam
jayavaham japennityam akshayyam paramam shivam

5) Sarva mangala mangalyam sarva papa pranashanam
chinta shoka prashamanam ayur vandhana muttamam

Verse 4 struck me particularly.

Any suggestions anyone?

[> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- Vickie, 13:45:06 03/22/03 Sat

I'm certainly no expert, but it looks more (sounds more?) like Sanskrit to me. I recognize the name of Rama (avatar of Vishnu), a word that means teacher or teaching principle, and a few other words that I cannot translate.

I know someone who might translate for you. What "Sun deity thing" that you are playing with?

[> [> Well, the source said it was in Tamil! I guess I'm gonna believe them -- Celebaelin, 16:31:15 03/22/03 Sat

What sun deity thing?

See my reply to RanRahBit in the Avatars thread. I've got about 6000 words so far but I hope to chop it down to a coherent and manageable length. Short enough to bother reading say. But there's more research to do yet I'm afraid, did you know the Incas had (at least) three sun deities?

Inti - god of the sun.

Manco Capac - god of the sun.

Viracocha - god of storms, the sun. Chief deity.

I get suspicious when I see threes. Trouble is there's the dawn deities, the sky deities, the sunset deities, the light deities and others as well. I don't hold out much hope of being comprehensive but I'll go with what I've found sometime soon.

[> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- from google's translation, 14:44:20 03/22/03 Sat

1) Tato yuddha parishrantam SAM acres chintaya sthitam

ravanam chagrato drishtva yuddhaya samupasthitam

I see Sri Rama standing thought-lost and from the fight exhausted on the battleground. Ready for the fight Ravana faces it.

2) Deivathaishcha samagamya drashtu mabhyagato ranam

upagamya bravid ramam agastyo bhagavan rishih

The gesegnete way Agastya, which came with the Gods, in order to watch the fight, it turned with the following words to Rama:

3) Rama rama maha baho shrinu guhyam sanatanam

yena sarvanarin vatsa SAM acres vijayishyasi

"Rama, oh powerful, armed Sri Rama, hears the eternal secret, with whose knowledge you will defeat all enemies on the battleground.

4) Aditya hridayam punyam sarva shatru vinashanam

jayavaham japennityam akshayyam paramam shivam

It is called ' Aditya Hridayam ', is holy, destroys the enemies and gives the victory and the highest, eternal benediction. That should rezitieren (?)one.

5) Sarva mangala mangalyam sarva dad pranashanam

chinta shoka prashamanam ayur vandhana muttamam

It is the benediction of all benedictions; it is the best way to destroy all sins to overcome fear and pain and provide for a long life.

[> [> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- Celebaelin, 16:39:47 03/22/03 Sat

Say it once, say it twice, third time's a charm!

Thanks very much for the help, unfortunately it's not as revealing as I'd hoped, it only really confirms the sun as war god connection but you don't get a coconut every time!

[> [> [> Always the way of it...keep going ;-) -- aliera, also interested...to see what you find., 17:16:52 03/22/03 Sat

Sorry I didn't sign before the entire thing took about 30seconds including the search...just in too much of a rush these days and it wasn't a day to be tied to the computer here, much too beautiful. Good luck with your search.

[> [> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- LonesomeSundown, 20:13:07 03/22/03 Sat

Celebaelin, the verses are in Sanskrit - I studied Sanskrit in school. Lucky that it's not in Tamil. That would make it much more difficult to phonetically approximate the words using the Latin script. I should hasten to add that I have forgotten most of the Sanskrit I knew, but I managed to fill in some gaps in Aliera's google translation.

BTW Aliera, how did you get the google translation? I looked at their language tools page and the only languages listed are European ones.

2) Deivathaishcha samagamya drashtu mabhyagato ranam
upagamya bravid ramam agastyo bhagavan rishih

The gesegnete way Agastya, which came with the Gods, in order to watch the fight, it turned with the following words to Rama:

"gesegnete (??) way" should probably be "divine sage". Agastya is one of the Saptarshis (Seven Sages) of Indian myth. The word 'bhagavan' means god or supreme power, but as used here it seems to be a symbol of respect for Agastya.

) Aditya hridayam punyam sarva shatru vinashanam

jayavaham japennityam akshayyam paramam shivam

It is called ' Aditya Hridayam ', is holy, destroys the enemies and gives the victory and the highest, eternal benediction. That should rezitieren (?)one.

As you probably gathered this verse describes the nature of the ES - eternal secret (sanatanam guhyam) - of the previous verse. 'Aditya Hridayam' literally translates to "heart of the sun". A minor point - I think the verse does not translate as "it is *called* ...", rather as "it **IS**..." Maybe it means that the ES is the source of the sun's power?
'japennityam' - recite/chant/reflect on it daily
'akshayyam' - that which does not diminish
'paramam shivam' - eternal god. I'm not sure if 'shivam' refers to Shiva, the destroyer, one of the gods of the Hindu trinity (Vishnu the protector and Brahma the creator being the other two) or if it is a more general reference to an almighty power/eternal truth.

Hope this helps. I've been meaning to read the RanRahBit thread, maybe this will provide the impetus.

- LS.

[> [> [> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- Celebaelin, 21:50:17 03/22/03 Sat

Here's the full text and the relevant web pages.

To be fair it doesn't say that the English version is a phonetic representation of the Tamil, it merely gives English and Tamil versions at two web pages

http://www.chennaionline.com/festivalsnreligion/slogams/sloeng1.asp

"For centuries, "Surya" (Sun) has been worshipped as a major deity in India. The sun, acknowledged as the source of energy, vitality and life, controls the course of our life. Our concepts of life, time and death, good and evil, happiness and misery stem from this primeval source of divine effulgence. . Surya riding a chariot driven by seven horses is a familiar image in Indian art and sculpture.

Lord Rama was, by sage Agastaya, the Adityahridayam, a prayer addressed to the sun god. Ramayana says that when Rama stood exhausted in the battle with Ravana, sage Agastya, who is Surya's son, recited Aditya Hridayam to Rama, and that Rama recited it thrice, became rejuvenated and proceeded to vanquish Ravana.

1) Tato yuddha parishrantam samare chintaya sthitam
ravanam chagrato drishtva yuddhaya samupasthitam

2) Deivathaishcha samagamya drashtu mabhyagato ranam
upagamya bravid ramam agastyo bhagavan rishih

3) Rama rama maha baho shrinu guhyam sanatanam
yena sarvanarin vatsa samare vijayishyasi

4) Aditya hridayam punyam sarva shatru vinashanam
jayavaham japennityam akshayyam paramam shivam

5) Sarva mangala mangalyam sarva papa pranashanam
chinta shoka prashamanam ayur vandhana muttamam

6) Rashmimantam samudyantam devasura namaskritam
pujayasva vivasvantam bhaskaram bhuvaneshvaram

7) Sarva devatmako hyesha tejasvi rasmi bhavanah
esha devasura ganan lokan pati gabhasthibhih

8) Esha brahma cha vishnushcha shivas skandah prajapatih
mahendro dhanadah kalo yamassomo hyapam patih

9) Pitaro vasavassandhya hyashvanau maruto manuh
vayur vahnih prajah prana ritukarta prabhakarah

10) Adityassavita suryah khagah pusha gabhastiman
suvarna sadrisho bhanur hiranyareta divakarah

11) Haridashvas sahasrarchi sapta saptir marichiman
timiron mathanashshambhus tvashta martanda amshuman

12) Hiranyagarbhash shishiras thpano bhaskaro ravih
agnigarbho aditeh putrah shankhash shishira nashanah

13) Vyoma nathastamo bhedi rigyajussama paragah
ghanavrshti rapam mitro vindhyavithi plavangamah

14) Atapi mandali mrityuh pingalas sarva tapanah
kavir vishvo maha teja raktas sarva bhavod bhavah

15) Nakshatra graha taranam adhipo vishva bhavanah
tejasamapi tejasvi dvadashatman namostute

16) Namah purvaya giraye pashchimadraye namah
jyotirgananam pataye dinadhipataye namah

17) Jayaya jaya bhadraya haryashvaya namo namah
namonamas sahasramsho adityaya namo namah

18) Namah ugraya viraya sarangaya namo namah
namah padma prabodhaya martandaya namo namah

19) Brahmeshana chyuteshaya suryayaditya varchase
bhasvate sarva bhakshaya raudraya vapushe namah

20) Tamoghnaya himaghnaya shatrughnaya amitaamane
kritaghnaghnaya devaya jyotisham pataye namah

21) Tapta chamikarabhaya vahnaye vishva karmane
namastamobhi nighnaya ruchaye loka sakshine

22) Nashayatyesha vai bhutam tadeva srijati prabhuh
payatyesha tapatyesha varshatyesha gabhastibhih

23) Esha supteshu jagarti bhuteshu pari nishthitah
esha chaivagni hotram cha phalam chaivagni hotrinam

24) Vedashcha kratavashchaiva kratunam phalameva cha
yani krityani lokeshu sarva esha ravih prabhuh

25) Ena mapatsu krichchresu kantareshu bhayeshu cha
kirtayan purushah kashchin navavasidati raghava

26) Pujayasvainam ekagro deva devam jagatpatim
etat trigunitam japtva yuddheshu vijayishyasi

27) Asmin kshane maha baho ravanam tvam vadhishyasi
eva muktva tadagastyo jagama cha yathagatam

28) Etachchritva maha teja nashta shoko bhavattada
dharayamasa suprito raghavah prayatatmavan

29) Adityam prekshya japtva tu param harshamavaptavan
trirachamya shuchir bhutva dhanuradhaya viryavan

30) Ravanam preshya hrishtatma yuddhaya samupagamat
sarva yatnena mahata vadhe tasya driho bhavat

31) Atha raviravadannirikshya ramam
muditamanah paramam prarishyamanah
nishicharapati samkshayam viditva
suragana madhyagato vachastvareti"

In Tamil at http://www.chennaionline.com/festivalsnreligion/slogams/slogam1.asp

I'm not sure if 'shivam' refers to Shiva, the destroyer, one of the gods of the Hindu trinity

I'm currently assuming that shivam is a reference to the nature of the god(s) rather than the aspect of Shiva per se. There are some temples in Southern india where both Shiva and Surya are worshipped simultaneously (Shiva Surya parralells with Apollo Helios), but more of that later.

Thanks for posting

C

PS If you feel like giving a translation of the whole of Aditya Hridayam I wouldn't complain (but I shan't hold my breath)!

[> [> [> [> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- LonesomeSundown, 07:53:12 03/23/03 Sun

This page has a good (and intelligible!) translation.

BTW, the Aditya Hridayam is in Sanskrit and taken from the Ramayana (though there might be some controversy whether it was in the original or tacked on later). It is apparently a popular prayer and has been rendered in (NOT translated into)different Indian scripts. I cannot read Tamil, but I am quite sure that the Tamil version on the website you cited is one such transliteration of the Sanskrit verses. Not trying to be argumentative here, but if you are looking for language resources, should be hunting in the Sanskrit section of your local library, is all :-) Good luck!

[> [> [> [> [> S'right (but can you find that character set) -- Celebaelin, 16:55:54 03/23/03 Sun

The derivation and/or translation is a point of interest that I don't feel competent to comment on (for a change). Due to my linguistic inadequacies and inaptitudes the detail, origin and interpretation of the original text is not the direction I find myself going in (yah yah yah).

My interest was, and is, stimulated by the potentialiatity of Suryama as Shiva as it resembles other concepts of deity and the concept of archetype as opposed to archetypal image.

Oh, the title, that's as in 'Character Map' to paste in, not as in the deity Set/Seth (which seems more complicated).

[> [> [> [> 'In Tamil' is a link, not a description -- luna, 21:30:57 03/23/03 Sun

If youi click on the phrase "in Tamil" it will take you to a page that really IS in Tamil script.

[> [> [> [> [> Yes, I realise that but... -- Celebaelin, 04:11:51 03/24/03 Mon

you'd think that since the only versions given are in English and in Tamil then it would be safe to assume that the Anglicised text in the English version would be a (quasi) phonetic representation of the Tamil version, apparently not however. I guess logical assumptions are no substitute for actual knowledge! Nobody even mentioned Sanskrit till I brought it to the board (nice board, good board puts board on head and gives it a Scooby Snack.

[> [> [> [> [> [> That's 'pats' not 'puts' (for those of you who don't like spending time upside down). -- Celebaelin, 04:14:41 03/24/03 Mon

[> [> [> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- aliera, 04:24:27 03/23/03 Sun

Search on a chunk of the text at the main search page and then select one of the results that says "translate this page". And you very correctly note that translations are really tricky; I've come up with some pretty odd results of the translation page too.

Ramblings Spacer
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For example even if I could get Icelandic there, could it handle the declensions? And then there's whole other levels of meaning that come from intonation (I was reminded of this in a message about Hawaiian the other night) and then what if we tried to use a search engine to translate the work of someone like Yeats? Imagine the confusion and the loss of metaphor, etc. Just not sufficient.

Even in the case of human translators there can be differences in the translations that alter the meaning quite extensively and then there's something I was reading the other night that pointed how many ancient "magic" texts were written in a sort of "code" that would make sense to the initiate but not to a real novice. Therefore, when we come across the text hundreds of years later and attempt to translate it literally we can be missing a whole level of meaning and perhaps it's true meaning.

Then there's a Joss joke this season that reminds me of the benefits confusion of this when Andrew mis-translates, "from beneath you it devours".

Search engines are a pretty good example of the maxim that there's always more than one way to go at a problem. Google is great engine and probably deservedly popular but there's a rigidity to it that came hand in glove with it's ease of use. It doesn't always work too well for tracking down Joss references which are twists on words because it requires exact spelling of a word...something which allows mystery characters like Al*er* works better although you have to be willing to sift through more results. Can you tell I like search engines and finding things? I do. The internet is like a big endlessly fascinating unindexed library candy shop for me; plus BONUS people from everywhere ;-).

Speaking of which, C...there's going to be similarities between some of the archetypes/gods from East to West and from Ancient to Modern but there's going to be some pretty big differences too at a pretty deep level? One of the funny HaHa things about Buffy is the shifting or flipping of the gender roles. Buffy tends to be related to light/sun and her shadows related more to dark/moon (Spike's the obvious example here.)which is one such flip. The reason I say this is a sort of funny or irony is that to our modern eyes this is a flip but if some writer's are correct than before male gods were associated with the sun they may associated with the moon (I think the triune goddess stuff is often linked the moon phases?) So anyway, we have an unintended back to the beginning reference LOL.

I was thinking about the search yesterday a bit...not so much about sun gods but about the different gods/stories in general...like Apollo/Dionysis/Hermes and liminality (is that a word?) transformation and the linking of figures to the land/story like the Winter King/Summer King. This has already been mentioned by someone in reference to Angel. I'll be interested to see what you all come up with.

OK my youngest dog is barking at me to get away from that weird machine thingy already and pay some attention to him now, so got to run! Good luck with the translation/references things!

[> [> [> [> Re: Help, it's in Tamil! -- Celebaelin, 07:32:02 03/23/03 Sun

Gender flips, the fuzziness of eye sybolism (good/bad?), the fact that the Egyptians had 2000 gods anyway, and the Hindus have 330 million! A lot of mythologies don't have three readily identifiable sun deities or aspects thereof, does that mean they're less developed or less confused? I'm tempted to go with the former but that might be a dangerous assumption for me to make.

With regard to gender there are a few 'groups' of female deities who seem to fulfill the similar roles to the male triadic ones within the same culture but I'm going to have to speculate largely as regards precise roles within traditional society if I'm ever going to post this, I'm thinking I'm going to have to make some assumptions based on symbolism (and it won't be very soon anyway I'm afraid) eg most deities of the dawn were female (and Re wasn't), there may be a common root but I haven't found it yet.

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