March 2003 posts
Breadwinning and Ballerinas (Angel Odyssey 3.12-3.13) -- Tchaikovsky, 07:53:56 03/19/03 Wed
I think I may have been expecting a little bit more on Cordelia's transformation in one of these two episodes. By its general absence, are we supposed to imagine that her demon aspect is not all that important, or am I being lulled into a false sense of security? Must wait and see. There are certainly a couple of hints of the difference in Cordelia in 'Waiting in the Wings' at least.
3.12- Provider
Not a big fan of Scott Murphy at all. I know he has to compete with Greenwalt, Minear, Whedon and the underrated Mere Smith, but 'Carpe Noctem' had some wholes in it, (partly edited out, I admit), and this episode, while dealing with a question which was interesting to address, did it without any real style and panache.
The question is about how Angel will deal with his fatherhood, and how it affects his work. As the almost-leader of his company, he responds by changing the emphasis towards getting as much money as possible. Of course, the obvious ending to the episode would be that getting money fails on all counts, and they realise that it is 'helping the helpless' they do best, and that Connor doesn't need money, he needs love. Fortunately, the message isn't quite that trite or unrealistic, with the money actually being found by killing a race of demons who just happen to be rich.
The impression we are supposed to glean from five plot-lines is that the ambition that Angel has is not working. What happens is that the failure of AI is reflected in the episode. Wes and Gunn's zombie plot-line is underworked, only the humour of Lorne and Fred as a partnership saves the demonic head idea, (extraordinary echoes of 'The Bachelor Party' and various others, seeming derivative), and the Angel plot-line, while interesting, is a little neglected. On top of this, we see Holtz testing Justine's ascetic loyalty, and the most successful of the stories, the small one with Cordelia becoming a surrogate mother to Connor.
In a few of the cases, the idea that the team is being spread too thin is backed up by the way in which the smaller teams or individuals fail. Angel almost gets himself in a scrape because he doesn't engage with the faking man, (a fault less likely to happen with Cordelia in tow), and subsequently carelessly misses some of the vampires, (a fault less likely to happen with Logistics man Wesley). Wesley and Gunn have some problems with barricading the door, and also with engaging with the woman and ascertaining her story. Finally, Fred, while intellectually capable, is not given the back-up required to defend herself against strange, clicking demons who want her brain. In each case, the unholistic approach leads to the operation's failure.
A few other random thoughts:
- The reveal on Justine's hand was a little shocking, particularly just after her apparently meaningless retort about the hand being a pun.
- We see Wesley and Gunn paralleled in what is being quickly set up as a triangle. Its a touch inexpert, but at least it has pay-off in the next episode.
- Lorne appears to be becoming a rather more integrated member of the group. I wonder whether he has given up on Caritas, or whether yet another re-building is underway.
- The final shot is rather beautiful, with the slow pull-back, and we see the nascent family unit. That's going to be an important visual moment for whatever events befall AI in the rest of the season.
Not great. But, I thought to myself, Whedon will save me. And guess what I got...
3.13- 'Waiting in the Wings'
This is the first solo episode by the master since way back at the premiere 'City Of...', and let me say this first of all. I didn't fill up my envelope side for 'Provider'. I had great difficulty keeping to one side for 'Waiting in the Wings'. I was a little bit grumpy with it to start with, because it seemed to be setting out its stall as a soap opera with some superb dialogue, but as usual, Joss managed to really give the plot an extraordinary depth of resonanace, beauty and emotion due to his intelligent writing and often extremely intelligent directing. He has really grown as a director recently, and this is a testament to the case.
On the surface level, we have the two possible relationships, and their ultimate failures, which are replaced by relationships which seem on a surface level less obvious. Whedon heavily underscores the suggestion that Angel and Cordelia are going to get together at the end of the episode. We have the coy concern over their outfits at the beginning, the shadowing of their intentions at the ballet in the middle, and then the big, emotional talk at the end. Only for the whole, over-earnestly structured plot to be turned on its head by the arrival of Groo. That's another thing I love about Joss Whedon. His pacing and balance is dead on, so if you ever feel something is being too heavily signposted, it generally suggests a dramatic switch coming up.
The other relationship is that of Wesley and Fred. This is the one which seems the more obvious of the two which comprise the triangle. The brains of the group. And we have the talk between Cordelia and Wesley, where, as well as effortlessly showing he misses none of the nuances of the characters' interactions, (with the lines about Cordelia with Wesley back in Sunnydale), he sets up Wesley's hopes. Of course, Cordelia has all the hope in the world for the couple, particularly after the scene where she supposedly advises Fred about Wes, when in fact Fred is talking about Gunn. It's ironic that Cordelia trumpets her female intuition, (often genuinely useful in the series), only for her lack of actual understanding to deeply hurt Wesley later on.
There's an obvious feeling of comradeship when Whedon directs an episode. I got that feeling powerfully when he directed 'Untouched', and it's here again. There's an extra sparkle in the eyes of the cast, which never hurts in bringing out the humour of the opening acts. There's some great Whdon humour, as always, my personal favourite being Angel's annoyed 'And stop calling me pastries'.
Now let me over-analyse for a minute. Please stay with me, it woun't be too long. This episode is clearly about Joss Whedon's experiences of running his shows. It's interesting to see this one as a complement to 'Once More, With Feeling', where I believe several Atpoers have already pointed out that Whedon is, to an extent, Sweet. Here Whedon is most definitely the Count. The man with the power to get the ballerina to perform the same dance over and over again. The man so in love with his creation that he finds it difficult to let go. Whedon is saying something rather uncomfortable about his own feelings in writing here. Partly, he conveys what it is like to write a serial. While the ballet is one-off, self-contained story, in Buffy and Angel, the characters must keep pirouetting year after year, never able to rest. After, as I once mentioned, Buffy's jump off the tower being Whedon's refusal to continue with his Universe after 'The Gift', (only for it to be picked up by UPN), this episode ties in nicely with the opposing Season Six- about how Whedon is struggling to go on. And also, going a little further, I have mentioned several times that I see Lorne as David Greenwalt, the voice of the writers, and the one who sometimes subverts the natural order of things. It is interesting that Angel and Cordelia were starting to be pushed together in Greenwalt's last episode 'Offspring'. And here, we see Lorne counselling Angel to get with Cordelia. But Whedon, the made count who will never stop his creations from going onwards, propulsive yet frozen in time, has another dance. Enter Groo. Even Lorne, (Greenwalt) is confused as Whedon, the consummate 'Plotter Not Shipper', spins away from the obvious climax, instead writing in a character whose importance seemed, to me at least, quite over.
Which leads me to the question, quite what does Groo re-appear for at precisely this moment? Pylea appears to slowly be turning itself into a functioning Republic, which means no unelected leader is required. But for the basis of the Cordelia/Angel relationship, it has more important implications for the viewer. It suggests perhaps that Cordelia is still not totally comfortable with her relationship with Angel. But on the other hand, it's arguable that her instant regression to her relationship with Groo will not last. Remember Groo appears to be Cordelia's vision of what Angel should be, only for her to realise that his version of the Champion is too one-dimensional. By this point in Season Three, Cordelia has even more reason to have a deeper bond to Angel. She like him has a demon inside her. They have bonded over Connor, with Cordelia becoming the primary surrogate mother. And the relationship has been slowly, tidily building since 'Heartthrob'. I believe Angel is genuinely ready to have a go at a romantic relationship. But ultimately, after the wonderful mis-directm we are left with him 'Waiting in the Wings'.
This phrase of course also refers to two other aspects of the episode. First, of Wesley. He has his expectations dashed when he sees Gunn and Fred together. And so he, like Whedon, is also associated with the Count. This time not with his maniacal encouragement of people to perform over and over, but with a lost love. It is interesting that the Count idealises the prima ballerina and her performance. While the lady is painfully aware that in the repeating identical performance, she slips at one point, the Count sees it as perfect. He doesn't see the imperfection, or doesn't want to see it. I wonder whether this is to an extent true of Wesley again. He sees Fred as a perfectly innocent, beautiful girl. And it's not to be quite that simple. As Gunn is not associated with the Count, perhaps we are supposed to accept that his vision of Fred is the more well-rounded one.
And then there's the final, literal 'Waiting in the Wings' of the ballet itself. In an episode full of powerful emotions, and sweeping character developments, its perfect to have the ballet working in the background. It gives the nexessary depth in the backdrop. It's interesting to see the backing characters laughing madly while committimg their violence. Possibly a deliberately grotesque parody of Whedon's own characters, quipping in the face of mortal danger. And the innocent girl in 'Giselle' is supposed to be Fred to the entranced Wesley and Gunn. Their simultaneous hand movement, interrupted by 'Angel!' is nicely done. More so the elegant piece of directing when we see Wesley in the reflection, when he first discovers Gunn and Fred. He is broken into two pieces- despair and understanding- communal hope and personal despair. Also, we see Wesley not just observing, but on the same side as the other two, highlighting their association rather than opposition.
Finally, there's 'I thought for sure she was supposed to be with Angel'. An admission of the mis-direct, but simultaneously, a chance to watch Wesley's crestfallen visage realise that Angel's story is his own. He has been led on by Cordelia's mis-placed enthusiasm, as Angel has been led on by Lorne and the fake possession.
A few more bits that ought to fit in higher up somewhere:
-Another Whedon moment. 'You love her that much. Start a web-site' A back-handed tip to all the fan-ficcers that only the real Angel is real. Whedon owns the fates of the characters.
-Gunn's trust dissipating after Angel's buying of the ballet tickets, and then his 'trust issues' aide. Subtle; hilarious.
-Love the seating arrangement in the ballet. Fred between Gunn and Wesley. Angel and Cordelia behind on their own.
-There's the 'I Only Have Eyes For You' moment. Angel subsequently uses the parallel to realise that he may finally be ready to move on from Buffy to another human being, Cordelia.
-Angel identifies with the ballerina. Partly because his character is doing Whedon's priouettes. Partly, on a less metanarrative level, because he feels he is always having to perfrom into some abstract role of Champion. This gives him even more reason to attempt to woo Cordelia, because he realises the dancer should have just taken off with her true love, and Angel is not doing this only because he feels it may be an impediment to some abstract concept.
And there are even more layers of meaning that I've missed out or didn't get altogether. Brilliant episode, as usual from Whedon. He really should write and direct more, you know. Honestly, he was only trying to run three shows...
TCH
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Someone else who likes that ep! -- Rahael, 08:04:07 03/19/03 Wed
Waiting in the Wings doesn't seem to get much praise, but I thought it was a wonderful ep, for the reasons you state.
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And I thought I was the only one! -- ponygirl, 08:40:40 03/19/03 Wed
Sometimes it felt like I was the only one who enjoyed that episode. It got me out of the season-long pissy mood I'd been in with AtS, and actually made me see the Angel/Cordy 'ship as interesting. All of the characters just seemed so clearly defined, the dialogue snapped, the pacing was fab, and it has one of my favourite Joss exchanges:
Cordy to guard: "Hey! Do you like bribes?"
Guard, smiling: "Do I ever."
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LOL! (and I agree with your reasons as well) -- Rahael, 16:04:54 03/19/03 Wed
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Re: Breadwinning and Ballerinas (Angel Odyssey 3.12-3.13) -- Arethusa, 08:38:14 03/19/03 Wed
I liked Waiting in the Wings very much too. Whedon usually gives us lots of great character interaction. I like your take on the episode too-which might make it a bit of a companion piece to Storyteller, which seems to tell a story about telling stories.
I had a totally different take on WitW, though. Based on Whedon's cracks about fans' websites, Angel's comment that all anyone wants to talk about is Angel/Cordy, and the ballerina's assessment of the Count, I saw the Count as the television audience. "You've gotta love a guy who gives you what you want, then skewers you for wanting it. The Bad Guy in this episode is a man with an obsessive attachment to a certain performance. Sure, he doesn't know much about it, doesn't notice its flaws, but he knows he's just in love with the performance and performers, and proves it by watching it over and over and over again, like a mystical rewinding of a videotape.
The theme of this show is: Get a life," I said when the episode aired. (Interesting- Darby's response was "That's gloomy," which is what Sweet said to Buffy in OMWWF.)
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Re: Breadwinning and Ballerinas (Angel Odyssey 3.12-3.13) -- Rahael, 09:08:13 03/19/03 Wed
My brain is dead and I've discussed this ep a lot (for some reason, the archive search isn't turning up my first post ep review of WitW, so I just lifted this from my reply to Age's comparison between WitW and 'Dead Things' All mistakes are attributable to the earlier me!
"I'm struck that no one has made more of Joss's deliberate choice of Giselle as the ballet in 'Waiting in the Wings'.
In Giselle, the forest is haunted by the ghosts of broken hearted women. The Queen of them condemns men to their doom by making them dance to their death. (Sounds familiar to me.) So here we have the themes of love and vengence. And an examination on both shows about the nature of love, passion and sex.
In Angel, we have Gunn and Wes fighting for Fred. We have Fred's awakening passion for Gunn. We have Cordy and Angel, Cordy and Groo, and of course the mysterious ballerina, her lover, and her svengali, the Count.
In Buffy, we have Tara and Willow, we have Spike and Buffy, we have Warren and Katrina. Just as Wes chooses the noblest way to express his love for Fred (silence), and Tara steps aside as a sign for her care for Willow, we have others who use love to stultify, hold back and freeze the other individual - The Count, and Warren. They choose to make puppets of the object of their love (which Age has already pointed out).
Angel and Cordy are also made puppets in a grander drama momentarily. Cordy is already wearing borrowed clothes anyway, posing as someone other than herself as she sets off to visit the ballet.
The vengence motif in Giselle ties into Anya and Xander, and the visit of Halfrek, who is still around in Sunnydale.......
And yet again, I must recommend Powell and Pressburger's great film, 'The Red Shoes'. It's about a ballerina who at the final moment has to choose between her career in dance and her lover. Her svengali forces her to choose dance, her lover gives her an ultimatum - leave with me tonight, leave the dance or lose me forever. She hesitates too long (as the ballerina in WitW also does, as do Wesley and Angel) and starts her performance that night. Too late, she realises that she should have left with her lover. She jumps off the stage, and dances over the landscape, and her lover sees her coming. But too late - she jumps in front of a train and dies."
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The highs and lows of Season 3 -- Masq, 09:14:57 03/19/03 Wed
Season 3 has some of the most powerful episodes in the series (most of which are yet to come, IMHO, TCH). But it also has some of the real stinkers.
"Provider" is one of those, just because it's one of the few episodes that gets genuinely preachy with the "I learned my lesson, helping the helpless is so much more important than money."
Plus the lame-oh plot about cutting off Fred's head and giving it to their prince.
Many people complain about how bad "She" was in Season 1, but I think I dislike "Provider" more. There's another pretty-much-a-stinker coming up later in the Season (I think you'll know which one it is when you get there), but otherwise, I love the second half of the Season with girly-fan glee.
"Waiting in the Wings" is one of the under-rated episodes of Season 3. I was surprised at the number of people who didn't like it. Maybe they expect too much when Whedon pens and directs an episode. But "WitW" and Season 4's "Spin the Bottle" are delights, as far as I'm concerned. Whedon knows the characters that inhabit his universe, and he writes them well.
The whole Lorne-Angel "pastries" scene is an example of this. Angel, at least since he's been on his own series, has always relied on having a "demon guy best friend". Doyle filled this role at first, then Lorne stepped in in Season 2. Their role is to give advice, both mundane and supernatural, and to not bring this advice to Angel from the lofty "more superior" position of being fully human. They are much the same as he--benevolent and demonic.
What's interesting about the Lorne-Angel interactions (as opposed to Doyle-Angel) is that Lorne has always performed his nurturing friend role in part by flirting with Angel mercilessly. It's interesting in part because Angel never reacts to it. He doesn't get defensive or hostile, as some men might, and he doesn't encourage it, either. He just lets Lorne be Lorne. "Waiting in the Wings" I think, is the only episode where Angel actually has any reaction to Lorne's flirting at all, and it's mild petulant irritability, as if he's saying "Stop trying to make me feel better, I want to pout." Or in his case, brood.
One other note: It suggests perhaps that Cordelia is still not totally comfortable with her relationship with Angel. But on the other hand, it's arguable that her instant regression to her relationship with Groo will not last. Remember Groo appears to be Cordelia's vision of what Angel should be, only for her to realise that his version of the Champion is too one-dimensional.
Oooh, wait until you see "Couplet" for an interesting spin on this.
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Interesting on the demon friends -- Tchaikovsky, 07:25:25 03/20/03 Thu
I'd never considered Doyle as a parallel to Lorne, but that works quite nicely. A person to understand what it's like to be simultaneously human-like but not-human.
I watched 'Couplet', 'Loyalty', and 'Sleep Tight' last night. Reviews coming some time tomorrow. For now, let me just say...nothing!
TCH
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Looking forward to it! -- Masq, 14:27:21 03/20/03 Thu
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And now, the inevitable splash of cold water.... (mild S4 spoilers; don't worry--I'll tell you when) -- cjl, 10:08:03 03/19/03 Wed
I hated both episodes.
No, "hate" is too strong a word: I was disappointed with both episodes. I felt they both had potential, and they both let me down in almost every conceivable way. If anything, I can tolerate "Provider" a bit more, because I was expecting a breather from the high drama of the Holtz/Darla/Connor arc--and I got it. (Not much else though.)
The specifics:
Most of the criticism on the board after "Provider" aired in the states was that Angel was out of character for the episode, going money-mad and generally devolving into the dreaded Goofy Angel. I didn't see it that way. Angel's reaction is exactly what you'd expect from a 250 year-old vampire who's experiencing true fatherhood for the first time: he goes a bit nuts.
This temporary loss of focus sets the stage for the fragmentation of A.I., and the half-dozen plotlines the writers try to squeeze in to the rest of the episode. None of these plotlines are distinctive enough to stick in the memory: as you said, the Fred/Lorne plotlet reminds us a little too much of the Bachelor Party; the Angel plot-let reminds me of S1 (and not favorably), but could have been significant if the writers followed up in future episodes (they didn't); and the Wes/Gunn scenes are cute (but ME has done domestic comedy/horror better).
I would feel better about Cordy acting as the voice of reason (and fiscal practicality) at the end if she didn't bring the baby along to a potentially lethal environment. (First priority for evil-fighting families after bringing baby home: phone numbers for baby sitting services.)
All in all, not bad, but nothing special. NEXT!
****
As for WiTW--oh my.
I'm sorry, TCH, but in my opinion, this was a disaster.
You have to understand that, going in, Joss Whedon had three specific assignments for this episode: he had to convince the audience that Cordelia and Angel had long-dormant romantic feelings for each other; he had to ramp up the Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle, and bring the Fred/Gunn chemistry to full boil; and he had to frame these somewhat melodramatic liaisons within the world of classical ballet--tying the themes of the episode into themes of classic literature and art (the mutliplying minions with the tragedy and comedy masks, for instance).
Joss went 0 for 3. Unthinkable.
And yet, there it is. Granted, a lot of the badness stems from steering the series toward these specific romantic arcs in the first place, and the chemistry (or lack of same) between the actors. You might say it's unfair to blame Joss for how the eye-of-the-beholder heat (at best) or complete incomprehensibility (at worst) of the C/A and F/G pairings came off in this episode. But you know what? Joss is the boss. He makes the decisions. He takes the heat.
Again, this is entirely my own opinion, but David Boreanaz and Charisma Carpenter have no romantic chemistry whatsoever. I realize many of their scenes together in WiTW were meant to be awkward, as Cordy and Angel were dealing with possession and what the drama of the two doomed lovers might mean to their own stories. But I saw nothing in the way of the Geller/Boreanaz intimacy in any of their scenes beyond that, or even the crackling sexual fire between DB and Stephanie Romanov or the "professional respect that could have developed into something more" between DB and Elizabeth Rohm. DB and CC have a great "friendship" vibe, a great "brother/sister" vibe, but neither actor seems to be willing to surrender emotionally to the other during a romantic scene. At times, it's incredibly painful to watch. And Joss, try as he might, couldn't write the passion in. It was the start of a long trip down a blind alley.
[TCH, I'll try to be as vague as possible with spoilers here, but if you want to be cautious, skip this paragraph.]
Same thing, to a lesser extent, with Fred and Gunn. In retrospect, they were clearly going for the Othello comparison, but the payoff was not worth the painfully dull trajectory of the F/G relationship. We've gone through hoops on this board to explain what exactly Fred sees in Gunn and vice versa, but it only comes through on an intellectual level; until the disastrous events of "Supersymmetry," I didn't feel anything for these two as a couple. (Why? I have a million explanations, but I might actually want to do some work at the office today...)
[OK, TCH--it's safe.]
As usual, the only good thing about the W/F/G triangle was Wes' reaction. Alexis Denisof has the passion that's missing from the rest of the cast in this episode; Wesley burns with a fire that threatens to consume him and everyone around him. I would kill to see that deleted fantasy sequence--with Wes and Fred as dancers--reinsterted into the episode. Denisof almost made this episode work, but not quite.
The Count? The prima ballerina? The masked minions? Completely uninvolving. The comparison with "Once More with Feeling" and Sweet is appropriate, but hardly flattering. Sweet had personality, style, energy, charisma (sorry); the Count was perched in the balcony, a near-ominiscient observer, a prime mover of the dramatis personae--but without much personality of his own.
I have to see WiTW again when the Angel S3 DVD comes out, if only to determine whether my personal opinions about C/A and F/G poisoned my opinion of the actual episode. Until then, though....
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Disagree about Fred and Gunn (season 4 spoilers) -- Masq, 11:49:52 03/19/03 Wed
I see chemistry between these two. I LIKE them together. I'd rather see Fred with Gunn than Wesley. Fred and Wesley together are a double dose of the same thing. Fred and Gunn together are that mysterious opposites attract thing.
My interpretation of all the Fred-Gunn threads we've seen on the board is different from yours, cjl. I see them not as attempts to understand what Fred and Gunn see in each other, but attempts to understand what POSTERS see in the couple. Many of the posters who posted in these threads LIKE Fred and Gunn, but can't really figure out their own emotional reaction to the couple. After all, they're mismatched, they tend to idealize each other unrealistically, and Gunn certainly has encouraged some of Fred's child-likeness. So they spill a lot of pixels in intellectual analyses of why, on an emotional level, Fred and Gunn nevertheless reach them.
Fred and Gunn being the kind of people that they are, very different people, it was inevitable that they would have trouble. So a lot of pixels have been spilled analyzing that, too. Interestingly, I think part of the problem, part of what made Fred and Gunn butt heads in Supersymmetry and break up later, was that on the vengeance issue, they saw eye-to-eye. They wanted vengeance to be exacted, just not by the other person in the couple. They were clinging to the last vestiges of idealizing each other, and lost those vestiges after "Supersymmetry".
When they kissed again in "Release" I was happy. I want to see them back together, with a LOT more realistic views of each other. I think they still have a journey to make together.
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Frankly, I don't want to see Fred with Wesley either. (late S3 & S4 spoilers) -- cjl, 12:06:55 03/19/03 Wed
You're right. Too much of the same ingredients.
But I've never felt the chemistry between Fred and Gunn (OK, maybe a little in "Deep Down") and I was irritated to see the writers scrimping on individual character development in order to portray them as a couple. Gunn seemed to sink into beta male or even GAMMA male status along the length of S3 and S4, before finally taking back some of his original fire when he took a shot at Angelus during "Calvary". And Fred? She was all over the place in S3 and S4. Physicist, electronics whiz, mystical researcher...is she just one of those prodigies who picks up everything easily or did ME just get lazy and plug her in whenever they needed brainpower?
They got interesting after "Supersymmetry," because they had a conflict that stemmed from their pre-romance characterizations. I liked the kiss in "Release," too, because I think it was Fred and Gunn's way of saying goodbye to each other, just as the Xanya sex in "Storyteller" was their way of saying goodbye. I like both these people, and I think they're better off separated; they'll be stronger as individuals than they ever were as a couple.
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Re: Disagree about Fred and Gunn (season 4 spoilers) -- Rufus, 03:10:34 03/20/03 Thu
Fred and Wesley together are a double dose of the same thing.
I agree, next thing we would know they (Wes and Fred) would be dressing alike....:):):):)
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Just so long as they aren't wearing Puff ****ing Daddy! -- KdS, 04:35:35 03/20/03 Thu
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Mostly agree (spoilers S3; safe for you, TCH) -- Scroll, 23:06:42 03/19/03 Wed
Joss went 0 for 3. Unthinkable.
And yet, there it is. Granted, a lot of the badness stems from steering the series toward these specific romantic arcs in the first place, and the chemistry (or lack of same) between the actors.
Before I get into this, I want to say that I love "Waiting in the Wings", though it's not a burning passion love. I enjoyed it from an intellectual standpoint. Loved the visuals, loved the tie-in to the ballet itself. Loved Angel identifying with Giselle's tragic existence. Loved Angel/Lorne. Loved Summer Glau (the ballerina). But from an emotional standpoint, I just couldn't get involved -- the only exceptions were Wesley (esp. post F/G kiss), and Angel's feelings of entrapment, of waiting in the wings.
But the romance in "Waiting in the Wings" didn't work for me, despite being penned and directed by Joss himself, because the set-up wasn't there. I just had a lecture on T.S. Eliot and his objective correlative, which basically demands that every emotion the audience is supposed to feel must rise organically from the surrounding context (i.e., plot, characters, setting, images).
Like cjl said, "chemistry" is a very subjective thing. It's all in the eyes of the beholders; namely, us. Unfortunately, I think there was a large contingent of Angel watchers who (at the time) really, really, didn't buy Angel/Cordelia, or Wes/Fred/Gunn. These romantic entanglements didn't seem to rise organically from what had come before -- they were inserted because of the show's inherent need for drama. (TCH, I don't want to be specific for fear of spoiling you.)
I could see the writers trying to build up Angel/Cordelia. They tried, they really did, but they ultimately failed (in reaching me, in any case) because there wasn't enough subtle build-up. Nice showing, not telling, in "Heartthrob", "That Vision Thing", and "Billy". But then we got kye-rumption in "Offspring". They made a mistake here, IMO. They stopped showing and started telling. Fred and Lorne (the writers' voices you say, TCH) kept telling Angel, and us, how much Angel and Cordelia were destined to be together. As much as I dislike "Provider", the one good thing they did was that final scene of Dad, Baby, and Mom. Now that was showing, not telling. So when WitW started off with more of Lorne's "telling", it soured the ep for me.
However, I've come a long way since last year. My dislike and distrust of Angel/Cordelia has toned down somewhat -- while I still think DB and CC don't have enough spark to light a tea-candle, I have accepted the show's dramatic need for Angel/Cordelia. It makes sense that their friendship has evolved into something resembling a mature, comfortable love. I've come to appreciate the inherent logic of A/C. I just despise the execution. (The word kye-rumption springs to mind.)
I never really had much problem with Fred/Gunn. Yes, we have no idea why they like each other. We didn't know them well enough (especially Fred) last year to understand their reasoning behind why they were attracted. But it was cute, and anything that made Wesley angst made me very happy.
As usual, the only good thing about the W/F/G triangle was Wes' reaction. Alexis Denisof has the passion that's missing from the rest of the cast in this episode; Wesley burns with a fire that threatens to consume him and everyone around him.
Well, I'm biased of course, but I concur that of the entire cast, AD sold the passion the best. Hope, blossoming love, hot jealousy, anger bordering on hate, obsession, violence, restraint, hurt, loss, the sorrow of regret -- I felt it all.
I'm not saying the other actors weren't good. In fact, I think they were all terrific in most of their scenes. But DB and CC have no chemistry. None. Zip. IMHO : )
To sum up. Last year, A/C made me cringe. F/G made me shrug and say, "Aww, that's so cute!" Wesley made my mouth go dry and my heart leap into my throat.
The episode as a whole? Very good, but not bloody fantastic.
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Well argued -- Tchaikovsky, 01:14:13 03/20/03 Thu
Totally agree on 'Provider'.
Pretty much disagree on 'Waiting in the Wings', but that's the fun of this board.
I do agree that Alexis Denisof's emotions seem a lot more powerfully acted and well-realised than the rest of the cast- he is a beautiful actor. I tend to attempt to ignore the acting of Charisma Carpenter as much as possible, because she's not one of the greatest- and focus on the character. I think David Boreanaz has grown a bit as an actor in the last three years.
I think I might object slightly to your arguments about Cordelia and Angel and the Count, for vaguely similar reasons. I don't think Cordelia and Angel's chemistry was supposed to be sizzling, but ambiguous and occasionally touching, so that the introduction of Groo at the end didn't seem too gimmicky. Angel might be falling in love, and maybe Cordelia is slowly coming round to the idea, but they're not head-over-heels like Buffy and Angel were. The Count is an observer, the distant, threatening undancing adversary. He's supposed to be rather an empty character. The fun of Sweet is that he embodies all the mayhem he causes- whereas the Count just arranges it and then sits back detached.
Good arguments though. I just happen to totally disagree!
TCH
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Right back at you, TCH; comments for Scroll -- cjl, 07:37:07 03/20/03 Thu
"...I want to say that I love Waiting in the Wings, though it's not a burning passion love. I enjoyed it from an intellectual standpoint."
That's a valid reaction to the magnificent artistry of Joss Whedon, Scroll, no doubt about it. But one of the main sub-themes of the episode deals with passion plays--how art (whether ballet or teleplay) conveys passion. If you don't buy into any of the romantic triangles of the episode--The Count/Ballerina/Lover, Wes/Gunn/Fred, Cordy/Angel/Ghost o' Buffy--the episode doesn't work. I didn't buy into any of it. (Except for Wes.)
OTOH, Joss is too talented to ever completely blow an episode. I liked:
1. The Fang Gang playing dress up. (Amy Acker--yum.)
2. "I cried like a baby--and I was evil!"
3. Summer Glau. Joss, get her into Angel. Or Ripper. Or the next spinoff. Please?
4. Gunn grooving on Giselle. Shows us (once again) that Gunn isn't just a 21st century blaxploitation cliche. He's a complex man capable of deep reflection--and he has damn fine taste in art and women.
5. Alexis Denisof. M! V! P!
TCH, your Angel Odyssey has probably changed more than a few minds around here, bringing formerly indifferent Whedon fans back to ANGEL; if the series survives into the 2003-4 season, I think your reviews (along with Masq's) will set the standard and be the reference points for the new post-Buffy board.
Your arguments are so well-written and thought-out, I'm wondering whether I completely missed the qualities of WiTW. I still don't think so, but I'm considering the possibility. That's quite an accomplishment.
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Echoing the praise for TCH! I've really been enjoying the odyssey! -- ponygirl, 10:55:28 03/20/03 Thu
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Wow. Thanks both- I love writing them -- Tchaikovsky, 14:55:10 03/20/03 Thu
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Re: Right back at you, TCH; comments for Scroll -- Scroll, 13:06:17 03/20/03 Thu
But one of the main sub-themes of the episode deals with passion plays--how art (whether ballet or teleplay) conveys passion. If you don't buy into any of the romantic triangles of the episode--The Count/Ballerina/Lover, Wes/Gunn/Fred, Cordy/Angel/Ghost o' Buffy--the episode doesn't work.
Yeah, therein lies the rub. WitW was all about lost love, thwarted passion, and dark obsession. But I just couldn't get over how uncomfortable CC and DB looked in those "love scenes". Especially CC. From all reports, she didn't like the idea of Cordelia and Angel together as a couple, she liked the brother/sister vibe and couldn't understand why the writers were leaving that behind. While I do think CC can be a good actress, I think some of her ambivalence relayed itself onto the screen in WitW.
1. The Fang Gang playing dress up. (Amy Acker--yum.) Loved Cordy & Fred buying the expensive dresses, wearing them with the tags still on, then returning them. Heh, I myself have never done that before...
3. Summer Glau. Joss, get her into Angel. Or Ripper. Or the next spinoff. Please? Totally, totally agree. Or Jewel Straite. Or Adam Baldwin. Pretty please?
4. Gunn grooving on Giselle. Shows us (once again) that Gunn isn't just a 21st century blaxploitation cliche. He's a complex man capable of deep reflection--and he has damn fine taste in art and women. He's so funny here. Loved the contrast of his unabashed enthusiasm for "culture" versus Wesley and Angel's more restrained enjoyment.
5. Alexis Denisof. M! V! P! Ditto. Very much ditto.
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Right back at you, TCH; comments for Scroll -- cjl, 07:42:34 03/20/03 Thu
"...I want to say that I love Waiting in the Wings, though it's not a burning passion love. I enjoyed it from an intellectual standpoint."
That's a valid reaction to the magnificent artistry of Joss Whedon, Scroll, no doubt about it. But one of the main sub-themes of the episode deals with passion plays--how art (whether ballet or teleplay) conveys passion. If you don't buy into any of the romantic triangles of the episode--The Count/Ballerina/Lover, Wes/Gunn/Fred, Cordy/Angel/Ghost o' Buffy--the episode doesn't work. I didn't buy into any of it. (Except for Wes.)
OTOH, Joss is too talented to ever completely blow an episode. I liked:
1. The Fang Gang playing dress up. (Amy Acker--yum.)
2. "I cried like a baby--and I was evil!"
3. Summer Glau. Joss, get her into Angel. Or Ripper. Or the next spinoff. Please?
4. Gunn grooving on Giselle. Shows us (once again) that Gunn isn't just a 21st century blaxploitation cliche. He's a complex man capable of deep reflection--and he has damn fine taste in art and women.
5. Alexis Denisof. M! V! P!
TCH, your Angel Odyssey has probably changed more than a few minds around here, bringing formerly indifferent Whedon fans back to ANGEL; if the series survives into the 2003-4 season, I think your reviews (along with Masq's) will set the standard and be the reference points for the new post-Buffy board.
Your arguments are so well-written and thought-out, I'm wondering whether I completely missed the qualities of WiTW. I still don't think so, but I'm considering the possibility. That's quite an accomplishment.
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Re: Breadwinning and Ballerinas (Angel Odyssey 3.12-3.13) -- Laney, 22:13:43 03/19/03 Wed
The most powerful moment for me is when the girl says she'd slip and hurt her ankle at the same moment in every performance for over a century. This brings home the cruelty of the Count in a very understated way. Joss seemed to like her performance so much she's called back for 'Firefly'.
And of course, there's the creepy/sad Wesley/Count scene towards the end.
Anya: From Beneath You It Devours (spoiler Selfless) -- lunasea, 08:31:14 03/19/03 Wed
The impression I got of Anya was she thought she was better than others. She was resistant to social conventions because she thought they were stupid (well they are) and that people were stupid for following them (well they are).
She reels off a list of things she has accomplished and her idea about the rabbits and Olaf insults her by saying no wonder the girls at the bar talk about her. He says he loves that she speaks her mind and is annoying. He says she is perfect and he doesn't want any other. When he turns to the bar maids for affection she feels betrayed, not only sexually, but he would prefer them to the way she is. He would prefer their social conventions to her way. He has made her feel badly/inferior and she reacts to this by turning Olaf into something he feels is inferior to him. She doesn't fit in, so she'll show him what it feels like.
"They all deserve it" with that line Aud shows how she really feels and that she is above all this. She has no problem playing judge and executioner. Society has so rejected her that she has set herself above it to protect herself. (it's society's fault. They should have been nicer to her. Bad Swedes. It takes a village and when the village is full of idiots, trolls are created. Her vengeance was on the village every bit as much as Olaf.)
Next flashback we see how superior Anya really feels. "It's common sense, really. I have better things to worry about. The stark contrast between Anya's views about capitalism were humorous, but what was important was how removed and above everything she was. (Big business is mucking everything up.)
From Beneath You It Devours. Even Hallie has more humanity than Anya. She does still care about those she "helps." Anya has become even above them, "Well, I don't know about her mind...but it was in her heart.(waves it off)" Anya knows better what that girl wanted than the girl. She really doesn't care about anything but "work, work, work."
Being above everyone ate her alive. Think of the Anya from "The Wish" or better yet "Dopplegangerland." When she started her relationship with Xander she came down to earth with the rest of us. From Beneath you it Devours, but On the Same Level Something Else Restores. (Is this where you tell me to be quiet? It is so pretty up here. I can see the tops of everyone's head.)
When Xander left her at the altar, again, she was above him. She turned back to vengeance, but she was restored earlier by Xanders' love and it wasn't the same. She couldn't place herself above humanity any more. It ate her up and this time she realized it.
All things in italics are irrational-fan girl. She woke up early because today is ANGEL day and trying to keep her quiet today is pretty much a lost cause.
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Re: Anya: From Beneath You It Devours (spoiler Selfless) -- Retread03, 10:59:04 03/19/03 Wed
Thanks for a thought provoking post. But I keep stumbling over Anya's statement that 'all my life I grabbed onto whatever came along'. She goes on to say 'what if I'm nobody?' It sounds to me like Anya played a role more than showed her true self, and now the role she's played for so long is gone she isn't sure who she is. So from feelings of insecurity she bluffed and 'acted' above humanity. She was motivated by insecurity rather than arrogance, I think. This doesn't mean her actions are therefore more acceptable, only that what she needs to move on is different. Too bad there is so little time left in the season. I'd like to see ME develop Anya a bit more.
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Re: Anya: From Beneath You It Devours (spoiler Selfless) -- lunasea, 09:04:09 03/20/03 Thu
She was motivated by insecurity rather than arrogance,
Isn't that where all arrogance comes from? People who are genuinely secure are usually the most humble people you can ever meet.
Anya is an overachiever. She takes whatever comes her way and excels at it. Then she covers up her feelings with arrogance. Her feelings are derived from being cut off from other humans. The more cut off, the more arrogant she gets.
Angelus' real nemesis: His Inner Child (AtS & BtVS recent spoilage) -- ZachsMind, 14:45:07 03/19/03 Wed
Whachoo talkin' 'bout Willis? The following is something that pooped outta my head after reading Masq's reaction to "Release." In the following when I refer to Angel, I mean the soulled character. when I say Angelus, I mean the soulless version. When I say Angie, I mean both of them simultaneously.
First off I loved CJL's take on Angie's inner child: "No wonder [Angeles] bristles at the thought of following His Master's Voice: it would be like Liam eating his vegetables and cleaning up his room. This is why he's only killed demons--they're the ones running the show, and Angelus hates ANYONE who's "running the show."
In the past few episodes we've seen Angelus incredibly happy about ruining the lives of everyone around him. I mean he's evil. Of course he's happy. This is what he does. And he takes no small amount of glee and satisfaction from it. In fact he seems to enjoy it so much that it's kinda contagious. One has difficulty not enjoying him enjoying it. Kinda creepy, that. DB literally seems to portray Angelus as if he were a kid in a candy store, and that's also where the writers seem to be when approaching the character. Angel's soul is a weight that holds down the demonic influence of Angelus' superego. When the cork's removed, the genie's outta the bottle. When the parents go away for the weekend, there's a party in the townhouse that is Angie. Everyone's invited.
Last night they repeated the BtVS episode "Conversations With Dead People," and the character of Holden Webster (the VampShrink) bowled me over again. I again wish they hadn't just killed off the character. Both Holden & Cassie - I'd liked to have seen them hang around just a bit longer than they did. It's yet another testament to fine writing that such TLC was put into characters which the writers knew up front they were just gonna kill off anyway.
The sired Holden Webster was everything that the old Holden Webster was, while at the same time he was everything Webster never was. How does a writer convey this dichotomy so believably? the answer is in the use of the Inner Child.
Now granted, we'd never met him before, but he had the memories of a classmate with Buffy. The writers educated us through the witty repartee of the two characters, giving us a crash course on Webster's past, his thought processes, his hopes and dreams, and general philosophy. The only unfortunate thing was we never met him BEFORE the 'siring.' We knew only his "Angeles" and never his "Angel." Quite a shame really cuz he seemed like a nice guy, as bad guys go.
But we also knew that unsired, he rarely ever spoke directly to Buffy. We know Holden had a girlfriend, and an interest in other girls. We know he spent time helping victims in a psych ward. We know he studied Tae Kwon Doe. Unsired, he never did anything to warrant Buffy's attenion: he was a nice guy. Sired, TURNED, Holden suddenly became (if only briefly) Buffy's arch nemeses.. sis.. seez..
The way Whedon & his team of writers approach the Dr. Jeckyl Mr. Hyde aspect of this vampirism thing is quite extraordinary. Although the soul may leave a victim of vampirism, his mind and body remain intact. So he is essentially the same person, with the same hopes and dreams and memories and attitudes, but it's a demonic influence that's entered in the place of the human soul. So actions the previous incarnation of the character would have dismissed without a second thought suddenly become this new character's playground.
VampWillow entertained lesbianism immediately, whereas NormalWillow needed to warm up to the idea more. This doesn't mean lesbianism is a bad choice or a good choice, but that with the superego removed, a vamped character will entertain notions regardless of the danger or morality. It's not that vampires are completely immoral, but they are most definitely AMORAL. They just don't care. They do what tthey think might be rewarding in the instant, with little to no concern about cause & effect. From a Freudian standpoint, one can say the Superego and the Id have been flip-flopped. Whereas the higher self was once noble and compassionate, the sired vamp becomes the exact opposite - selfish and vindictive, but still leavened by all the baggage that the human host accumulated in his/her lifetime.
Angie's predominant issue has always been his father. He never really felt any true sense of closure with that. As abusive and thankless and hurtful his father was, deep down Angie just wants to win Daddy over. That's what the inner child is craving. As Angel he responds to that craving by trying to be the best he can possibly be - a Champion - so that one day nothing in all of creation (animal, vegetable, mineral or demonal) could deny his greatness. At least in theory. Irrational, perhaps, but it's where Angel's body, mind AND soul are.
Likewise, the demonic influence that fills the void whenever Angel's soul goes on vacation, finds itself trapped in the mold which the body & mind have forged. So Angelus is struck with the same encumbrance: that inner child. It's a condition of the mind, not the soul. Angelus is just as susceptible to it as Angel is.
Only, the inner child works on Angelus even harder than it does on Angel, because there's no higher, loftier ideal now to aspire to. There's just this selfish, self-centered, juvenile, impish little THING taking the place of the superego - so it becomes a sorta "when the cats away the rats will play" scenario.
Angel's soul is like a strict but loving parent to the inner child. Angelus' demonic equivalent is like a devil-may-care, puckish, immature parent, who lets the inner child pull him along like a kid in a candy store or at a carnival. Sometimes the demonic influence reacts as if it WERE the inner child, and other times it's aloof and bored as if to say "are we there yet?" The Angelus demonic power may thinks it's in control of itself, but the real winner is its inner child, and any actor will tell you you never win when sharing the screen with animals or babies. Angelus thinks he's a winner, but even when he iz, he' snot. *snicker*
I just love how this series makes the bad guys as intricate and complex as the good guys. =) ANGEL the tv series -- something you can sink your teeth into.
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Tiny observation on Willow -- dream, 10:21:47 03/20/03 Thu
I was explaining to someone who used to watch Buffy, but stopped after the fourth season (I don't know) why I hadn't loved the Darth Willow plot last year. She was surprised that I didn't enjoy seeing a bad Willow, because VampWillow was such a blast. I explained that DarthWillow and VampWillow had things in common, but they weren't the same. For one thing, VampWillow was more fun. Also, there was the matter of the sexuality. VampWillow wore her sexuality overtly; she wore trampy clothes and seemed happily kinky. DarthWillow wore her black leather buttoned up as high as a Quaker school marm. Here's my point - why? I was thinking that it might be that Willow had already integrated her sexual personality. She had learned to feel comfortable with her body and her desires, so her "dark" side no longer reflected suppressed urges. Her urge for power, however, had remained something she wasn't comfortable with, so it was expressed in the darkest possible way.
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really like this, zm! -- anom, 14:35:07 03/20/03 Thu
Especially the part about the id/superego switch. And to make it even more interesting, 1 of the effects seems to be to put the 3rd part of the psyche on steroids. And Angelus' outsize ego is probably his biggest weakness.
(Please, no brickbats from the more psych-oriented posters--I know I'm using "ego" in the popular more than the Freudian sense.)
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I may be wrong on this, but is the ego the Freudian part that says us what we can and can't do? -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:54:42 03/20/03 Thu
Not like the id, which tells us what we want to do, or the superego, which tells us what we should do, but simply telling us what we're capable of doing?
If this is true, I think Angelus DOES have an affected ego. He tends to think of himself as invincible. He had many opportunities in Buffy Season 2 to wipe out the Slayer without a sweat, but didn't take them in favor of mind games, even though that meant she lived to eventually send him to hell. In "Darla", we saw Angelus dis the Master, even though old fruit punch mouth could have killed him right there. This season he has openly challenged the Beast and its Master, despite the fact that he must know both have power enough to destroy him. And he often went against the AI team while they had Faith, which certainly put him at a disadvantage. The only time I think I've EVER seen Angelus show fear was when Cordelia threatened to return his soul, and when anticipating the flashback of Angel rescuing the puppy. On all other occasions, he has had a messed up ego, believing that he was capable of anything.
Of course, this is more a case of lack of ego. Plus, since almost everything Freud said has been disproved, maybe it's best to let it be.
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Re: Angelus' real nemess: His Inner Child (AtS & BtVS recent spoilage) -- lunasea, 11:49:03 03/21/03 Fri
I like the idea of Angel's inner child. I think that is why my favorite Angelus line was "You can kiss my vampire ass." Can't you just picture Bart Simpson saying something like that (though it would be "Eat my vampire shorts")?
I love the way that DB plays both of them. The vulnerability of his inner child always shines through, no matter what other emotions they are going for. It makes me want to hug Angel (and even Angelus) frequently. It was so great to see 17 year old Liam in "Spin the Bottle."
I think Angel takes his inner child and projects it outward. He takes his own vulnerability and deals with it by helping the helpless. Since he has a conscience, he gets positive feedback for doing this and the behavior is conditioned. He still needs to project this back on himself though. He is incapable of handling things that he can't project out, like Cordy/Connor.
Angelus also projects his inner child outward. Instead of helping the helpless, he lashes out violently. Angelus in "Release" admits that he is trying to be someone he isn't. Interesting admission from a vampire. The only thing that stops the pain this causes is to "cause someone else pain." Angelus doesn't have a conscience and doesn't get he positive feedback Angel does from helping others.
Both their salvation lies in acknowledging this child and finding a way to let him play. I found that this time of the year, dying Easter Eggs was a great way to play. It is even more fun if you can do it with someone and get into a big dye fight.
I liked in "To Shanshu in LA" when Cordy was trying to get Angel a hobby. That is what he needs. He needs to play more. I liked when he was going to take Buffy ice skating for her inner child. I liked when they were playing in bed in IWRY. Remember his goofy dance (speaking of which, did everyone catch the bloopers on Sunday)? Angel loves Barry Manilow? Even he isn't *that* old.
Angel is completely dissociative right now. The only way I know to heal that is to cuddle your inner child. As Faith would say "Find the fun."
Buffy could benefit from this too.
Can you fight monsters without becoming a monster? Yes. Can you fight monsters without becoming a fuddy-duddy? I hope so.
Arrgh. Did anyone see the last 10 minutes of Tonight's Angel (Orpheus) -- s'kat, 19:27:04 03/19/03 Wed
If you did, could you please post what happened to this thread or send me to a link telling me???
Very frustrated. UPN broke in during the last ten minutes, at 9:54 exactly, just as Connor was explaining to the gang why he attacked Angelus. Yep stupid station couldn't wait five-ten minutes to tell us that we are probably at war with Iraq right now. I could have waited 5-10 minutes to find out....sigh, otherwise I'd be watching bloody CNN.
That's what CNN is for. Not going to rant about this. Promise.
Please let me know what happened at end of Angel. Thanks ever so...
hoping this posts. Have tried to post this query to the board five times now. Getting very very frustrated.
It's been one of those weeks.
SK
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Last few minutes of Angel -- Rufus, 19:51:08 03/19/03 Wed
I saw the show last night and taped it...the picture quality was lousy so I tried to retape it tonight and just as Faith was saying her goodbyes the news broke in.
The last part was Faith talking to Angel about their meeting of the minds....Faith was almost gone but Angel got all "pep-talky" on her and she found the strength to come back. They stop short of hugging and go back in to the hotel where Connor is telling Gunn he knows he was a bad boy for knocking Gunn out. Gunn just wishes he was awake to see Faith give Connor a spanking...."beat him down".
Faith says a final few words to Wes and says that he has the not hugging goodbye down pat. Gunn happens to mention that the hardest work was done by Faith which Wes readily agree's with. There is still tension between Gunn and Wes but I don't know if it will boil over like it has before anymore.
Willow has a final conversation with Fred, who does the yammer thing enough to get Willow to say "I'm seeing someone".....next thing we know Fred will be "gay now" and Wes and Gunn's conflict will be pointless. Fred has given Willow a book with some info on the Hellmouth.
Faith and Willow get ready to leave for Sunnydale and Angel mentions how much he owes Willow, Willow says she will say hi to Buffy for him....she also goes and gives the big guy a hug. But tells the rest of them..."next time you want to bring out Angelus call me first"
With Faith and Willow gone Angel starts to give the talk about togetherness when Cordy glides down the stairs and tells him to "save it for later"....She is wearing some two-piece getup that showes her very pregnant belly. end of show.
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Thanks, Rufus. -- Dariel, 20:04:52 03/19/03 Wed
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Re: Last few minutes of Angel -- Brian, 08:25:22 03/20/03 Thu
Here in Louisville we got the whole show. So probably the WB network was not responsible for the interruption, or our local WB decided not to interrupt the show. If so, then my hat's off to them for keeping the Angel fans first and formost in their decisions.
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Arggh here too! -- Dariel, 19:56:18 03/19/03 Wed
Yup. I really needed that extra six minutes of "we think something's happening in Baghdad"!
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yeah, but...>sigh< 'reality just shows up sometimes, doesn't it?' -- anom, 01:22:30 03/20/03 Thu
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Actually, I'm having a little more reality than I'd like, these days. -- Dariel, 09:59:53 03/20/03 Thu
I live in NYC, and work in the Empire State Building (possible terror target). We now have police toting automatic weapons in the lobby. Every day, I cross a bridge (target) to get to work and back. Our (non-elected) government seems bent on pissing off the entire world and doesn't care what I think about it. Even so, I'll be demonstrating against the war tonight and on future days and nights.
In other words, I think I deserved that additional 6 minutes of pure fantasy!
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Feel the same way. So no apologies needed -- s'kat, 10:51:50 03/20/03 Thu
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know whatcha mean -- anom, 11:06:44 03/20/03 Thu
I live near a bridge (looking out the window at it right now!). I sometimes freelance on site near the ESB, & it freaked me out when I came out of the subway at Penn Station to see cops w/rifles. Couldn't stop looking back at them. At various subway stations around town I see soldiers in camouflage (jungle pattern--very useful in the urban setting) w/high-powered weapons. This is since last month--not just once the missile launches started in Iraq. Can't say it makes me feel any more secure. A few more minutes of the fantasy, one of a world where demonization is literal (while still a metaphor, but not so much a political one) & sometimes even voluntary, would've been nice, & wouldn't have made any difference in dealing w/the real world.
Maybe I'll see you at some of those demonstrations--not that we'll be able to recognize each other! But it's nice to have a place where I can say that & know the vast majority of those who read it won't assume that we support Saddam Hussein, or even that demonstrating against a war means we have simplistic views on it.
One more thing, from this place where reality & fantasy intersect: You're in NYC too? Have you seen the threads on the planning for the local meet? Any chance you'll join us? (Then maybe we could recognize each other at demonstrations!)
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Re: know whatcha mean -- Dariel, 12:07:01 03/20/03 Thu
At various subway stations around town I see soldiers in camouflage (jungle pattern--very useful in the urban setting
Hey, you actually made me laugh! Another funny/not-so-funny thing: Those machine-gun toting cops are all guarding the ESB's Fifth Avenue entrance, the public/tourist entrance. The side entrances, for which you need an employee building pass, are unprotected save for the usual unarmed security guards. Cause terrorists always come in the front door!
I haven't seen the threads about a local meeting, but would certainly like to come. What should I do?
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Re: know whatcha mean -- anom, 12:58:29 03/20/03 Thu
"The side entrances, for which you need an employee building pass, are unprotected save for the usual unarmed security guards. Cause terrorists always come in the front door!"
Heehee--of course! 'Cause, um, they're trying to blend in, right?
"I haven't seen the threads about a local meeting, but would certainly like to come. What should I do?"
Hmm...good question. Darby's the one mostly organizing it, but I wouldn't feel right putting his email address up w/out asking. Maybe the best way would be to start a new thread asking "What's the latest on the NY meet?" Kinda the board equivalent of jumping up & down & waving your hand.
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Re: know whatcha mean -- Dariel, 18:51:30 03/20/03 Thu
Thanks-I'll do what you suggest about the NY meet.
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Sorry about the above--kind of ranty. -- Dariel, 10:25:03 03/20/03 Thu
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Re: Arrgh. Did anyone see the last 10 minutes of Tonight's Angel (Orpheus) -- Revel, 19:59:09 03/19/03 Wed
See response to Convict. Connor wasn't really explaining. Just hanging his head when Angel and Faith come back in from the balcony and that's about where my synopsis picks up.
I'm having trouble posting too. Argh.
Revel
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Last 10 Minutes of 'Orpheus' (spoilers, natch) -- Scroll, 20:04:19 03/19/03 Wed
Angel and Faith walk into the hotel. We hear Connor say "I get it, I messed up," to Gunn. Faith slugs Connor on the shoulder and says, "Cheer up, punk. Just makes you one of us." Faith and Gunn exchange friendly hand slaps (street kid ritual thingy), then Faith goes up to Wesley.
"Wes," she says. "Faith," he says. They face each other like comrades-in-arms. Then Faith says to Angel, "See, Brits know how to say good-bye. [to Wes re: Angel] He wanted to hug." Angel protests, cutely.
Willow and Fred come out of the office, Fred babbling on about the Pergamum Codex (wow, shades of Buffy Season 1!) and how it's much funnier in Latin. Angel and Faith do a cute eye-roll at the geekiness that is Fred and Willow. But then Willow has to let Fred down gently: "I'm seeing someone." Fred seems a bit taken back.
Faith and Willow start to move off, but Angel calls to Willow to thank her. "Hey, I got a Slayer out of the deal, let's call it Even Steven." She gives Angel that big hug he'd been jonesing for, then admonishes them to call ahead the next time they decide to resurrect Angelus.
Left alone with the Fang Gang, Angel is about to start another rousing motivational speech -- but Cordelia comes sauntering down the stairs in a strangely goth-type tassled black halter top and black skirt. "If you're going to start one of those speeches about how the worst is over," she announces, all blasé, "You might want to hold off on that."
Angel's stunned gaze fixes on her very pregnant belly.
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Re: Arrgh. Did anyone see the last 10 minutes of Tonight's Angel (Orpheus) -- Jay, 21:21:08 03/19/03 Wed
My local amateur half-hour WB newscast broke in the first couple minutes of act 4 to tell us that W was going to address the nation in a half hour, and what they might not know. Good job local newsmen. I was wondering about what you didn't know at the moment. Wanna-be "journalists" don't belong on WB stations. I've got at least a dozen better stations to turn to for updates.
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See, sometimes it pays to live on the West Coast -- Masq with actual thoughts about the episode, 22:13:26 03/19/03 Wed
We got dubya around ten 'til seven.
Not to be confused with dubdub. Good call on the drugging Angelus thing, dub!
Two hours later, settling in for a clean hour 'o Angel.
Is it just me or is Evil!Cordelia really, really corny?? And her "fake voice". Can I just say... lame?
The big show down with Willow, though. Awesome.
And you can really tell Connor was born in a barn. Uh, I mean a hell dimension. Someone needs to sit that boy down and tell him the facts of life. And I don't mean how to impregnate someone. He's got that one down already.
And a moment of silence for '70's Angel's hair. Honorificus is going to have a field day with that.
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moment of *silence*?? -- anom, 23:25:14 03/19/03 Wed
How about several straight minutes of hooting laughter? I'm sure my neighbors wondered what was going on in my apartment!
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But thumbs up on the.... -- Briar Rose, 01:01:55 03/20/03 Thu
great outfit and particularly cursory revelation of PregnantEvil!Cordy!!!!! That scene had me happily in shock.
I might re-consider the whole maternal thing with outfits like that in my mind!
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Re: See, sometimes it pays to live on the West Coast -- Rufus, 03:47:06 03/20/03 Thu
I'm still recovering from that look of peace that came over Angel's face as Mandy began to play...it must have gotten him just a hair away from perfect happiness. And who could not like a guy who rescues puppies?
Poor Connor, he is being sucked in and just doesn't get it. All "Cordy" had to do was go on about how they were a family and he was off to do anything including kill for her....but I do love the fact he did cause the release of his dad's soul.
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Re: See, sometimes it pays to live on the West Coast -- maddog, 08:48:44 03/20/03 Thu
Speaking of Cordy, does anyone know why a partial demon, such as herself, was able to shove Connor like that? What's goin on there?
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She's using some kind of anti-anti-demon protection spell mojo -- Masq, 09:39:36 03/20/03 Thu
I think she may have power to alter Lorne's spell. She may have gotten it to falsely react to Connor (meaning he may not have any demon in him after all), and she is altering it so she can do violence as she pleases.
Either that, or Cordy no longer has demon in her, and she's just messing with Connor's mind "We're part demon. We're special".
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Re: She's using some kind of anti-anti-demon protection spell mojo -- maddog, 11:13:04 03/20/03 Thu
You'd figure if they all knew she was part demon that she'd go out of her way to not look suspicious. I think last night was a slip up and if Connor's smart he'll pick up on these things.
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The scariest thing ever -- ponygirl, 08:51:46 03/20/03 Thu
'70s Angel... the stuff of nightmares. I'm not going to be getting over that hair and outfit anytime soon.
"And who could not like a guy who rescues puppies?"
Uh, me? I was just as embarrassed as Angelus. I'm hoping they don't do Angel flashbacks again for a looong time.
Hope that doesn't sound too crankypants, but I was really disappointed with the flashbacks.
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Yes, Cordy's fake voice is really cheesy! -- Dariel, 10:30:45 03/20/03 Thu
It's so bad that it must mean something. Maybe just that EvilCordy's been watching too many B-horror flics!
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No kidding -- Masq, 10:42:34 03/20/03 Thu
I mean, ME's gotta realize how cartoonish that voice is, and how cartoonish Evil!Cordelia is.
How could they not? It's over the top, a 1930's serial villian over the top.
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Hey Guys......Ever think it's suppossed to be that way?????? -- Angelina, 10:55:05 03/20/03 Thu
Let's face reality here, CC is not Meryle Streep. She is OK at comedic acting, but I don't think she can handle the heavy drama, so the writers gave her on out and "camped out the whole" evil Cordy persona. It is just too horrible to think that this is supposed to be "serious" acting. I find that if you look at it in the "campy" way - it is actually really funny! Especially when Angelus hears "that voice" for the first or second time - and DB does this great responding scene - I think he was in the magic shop. Really funny if viewed as pure camp. Sorry guys, I know a lot of you love CC, but she really isn't a dramatic actress, so I think the writers were sorta brilliant for working it this way. JMHO.
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It's hard to take her seriously as a villain, though. -- Masq, 11:06:01 03/20/03 Thu
Up until "Release", I was just fine with Evil!Cordelia. CC can really do the "Queen Bitch" thing great, like when she faced down Angelus, offering herself in exchange for information about the Beast.
Now, it seems as if she is deliberately being made campy--you're right, I think it has to be deliberate, because ME can't be that ignorant of just HOW campy it is. But it leaves us to speculate as to the reasons, and I don't think the reason is CC's inability to act. I suspect their are story line reasons here. Maybe trying to show the pregnancy going to her head or something.
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That's what some said about the Troika -- V, 23:46:57 03/20/03 Thu
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LOL ... Touché! -- LittleBit, 08:43:05 03/21/03 Fri
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Oh, she's already proven herself more dangerous than the Troika -- Masq, 09:48:08 03/21/03 Fri
And yet I still cringe whenever she comes on screen. She's like an evil clown or something. Campy. Like from one of those B-movies.
When the Troika proved themselves dangerous, I got a chill. It was like suddenly, all their nerdy fantasies had proven themselves truly dangerous in reality, and you looked at them with new eyes.
Evil!Cordelia is manipulating Connor, manipulating Cordelia's friends, bringing darkness and mayhem to Los Angeles. She's doing scary things. And yet, she acts like a 1-dimensional stock-villian, and that takes the air out of the tires for me.
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And furthermore... -- Masq, 09:56:47 03/21/03 Fri
Unlike the Troika, Evil!Cordelia started out truly menacing and scary and was turned campy. Now there is some question about when exactly Evil!Cordelia made her first appearance, but I assume by Soulless and Calvary, she was E!C. Trying to pass as Cordelia, even to the camera/audience, she came across as chilling. Cool, detached, calculating.
Then in "Release" and "Orpheus" she starts in with the campyness.
I don't like it, 's all I'm saying.
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I thought it had a certain Olaf the troll quality to it -- Jay, 17:15:07 03/20/03 Thu
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I think DB did some of his best acting ever in the last 10 minutes -- Dochawk, 22:46:56 03/19/03 Wed
Started 7 minutes late in LA but I got to see the whole thing and TiVoed it. I haven't heard mention of Angel's face when Willow says I'll tell Buffy hi for you. it was among the most subtle performances of DBs career and Angel certainly aint over the Buffster. Angelus enters the arc crying out Buffy's name and leaves for Angel to look glossy eyed at Willow's mention of her. There was also the line in the alley fight scene about Faith not being the one he's interested in. I am wondering about a Spike/Angel confrontation before this all plays out.
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Re: I think DB did some of his best acting ever in the last 10 minutes -- Alison, 15:06:13 03/20/03 Thu
I agree. DB was great, and that look in his eyes..was wonderful.
I also agree about the S/A confrontation..very nervously. This is going to upset me, I can tell. I know, I'm overly involved, but I really want them both to be happy.
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Re: Arrgh. Did anyone see the last 10 minutes of Tonight's Angel (Orpheus) -- maddog, 07:05:26 03/20/03 Thu
That's what I love about my UPN and WB stations. I NEVER get cuff off for news (with the 9-11 exception).
More Help! Last NINE minutes of Angel!! -- Belladonna, 21:49:02 03/19/03 Wed
I notice that everyone suffered the same fate as I - missing the last few minutes of Angel because the WGN seemed to think war was a big enough deal to cut in on our show (crazy newscasters). However, everyone else seemed to catch more than I. Can someone give me a run down of what happened for me? The last I saw was Connor walking in slow motion, saying "what will I tell the others?" Evil-Cordy: "They don't need to know." Please, for the love, can someone tell me what happened next??
Thanks!
My mom is appalled by how upset I am about this! :) But I knew all of you would understand! ;)
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Poor Belladonna! -- Scroll, 23:35:33 03/19/03 Wed
Basically, we see Connor on the balcony, looking down on Willow, Fred, and Wes doing the spell. We cut back to Faith in the Orpheus dream. Angel and Angelus are duking it out, but Angel keeps ignoring Angelus to get to Faith. He's trying to get her to wake up. He tells her, "You saw me drink. Doesn't get any lower than that. I thought I could pay, but I was just hiding from the world.
"It's my time," she argues.
"Our time is never up. We pay for everything," Angel says.
"It hurts," she says.
Cut to Willow doing the spell. Then we see Connor enter the basement and cold-cock Gunn with one punch.
Cut back to: Angel urges Faith to get up. "I need you to fight."
Angelus comes swinging at Angel and knocks him down. "Time to send you to your puppy-saving heaven in the sky."
"Arf, arf, psycho."
Angelus whirls around. Faith is standing behind him, weary but determined. "So, you're back in the game." "Guess I am." Angelus takes a swing at her... and passes right through her as she disappears.
Cut to: Faith's eyes flash open. She snaps awake and jumps off the bed, to Lorne's amazement.
We see the Orb of Thesula disappear. Angelus and Angel both fill up with light, and Angelus is forced to merge with Angel. The two are one, again.
Connor's in the cage, a stake raised over Angel. "I need you to fight," Angel says. "I know what you need," says Connor. He brings down the stake, but a fist wraps around his wrist, stopping him.
"Somebody get me a switch," Faith says, "Cuz there's gonna be a whuppin'." Hee! She proceeds to kick Connor's ass, until he hits up against the cage, and Angel grabs him. Holds him still. We see Connor's disappointment, and Angel's regret.
Later, we have Faith and Angel outside. Mutual thanks for life-saving and pep-talk-doing. Faith says she's going to Sunnydale. It's clear Angel wants a hug. They go in just in time to hear Connor say, "I get it, I messed up." See the other posts for the rest of the show, okay? My fingers are tired! : )
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Thanks!! -- matching mole, 10:01:44 03/20/03 Thu
My WB affiliate seems to have cut out earlier than anyone else's (at about 8:45 central time) and the descriptions below of events at the end just left me confused because they started after the key events that I missed (i.e. Faith waking up and Connor going down to the basement). I think I may have missed a minute or two more than Belladonna but I can infer about events in between. My station cut just as a shot began of Connor running down a hallway - I assumed he was running to Beastmaster Cordy but I guess he was heading to the basement? The magic duel was in full swing and the last Faith/Angelus scene had ended with Angel talking to Angelus for the first time.
I really enjoyed what I saw of the episode but did anyone else think that Willow was acting really out of character? Sort of like a cartoony version of a pre S6 Willow. Or maybe I missed revelation/hint about this in the last quarter of the show. Or it could just be a facade put on in front of a crowd that is less familiar to her than the Scoobies.
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Absolutely right -- Sophist, 10:44:44 03/20/03 Thu
did anyone else think that Willow was acting really out of character? Sort of like a cartoony version of a pre S6 Willow.
What we got was S3 or S4 Willow, not S7 Willow at all. Very disconcerting.
I have decided, however, that the 2 shows inhabit different universes. What happens on 1 is irrelevant to the other. The only relevant reality for Buffy is what we actually see and hear on BtVS. Vice versa for AtS. Under this theory, Willow's character can be entirely different on one show than it is on the other.
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Maybe -- F.F., 20:02:43 03/20/03 Thu
This Willow was definitely much livelier than the one we have seen lately on BTVS. Much less worried and full of angst, stronger and in charge. I do however think that this makes perfect sense. For one thing in the Buffyverse timeline I think that this episode of Angel actually takes place after the next episode of Buffy and Willow could definitely be in a different place by then. Also Willow gets the opportunity to leave Sunnydale, the place of all of her recent and current troubles. Going to L.A. is like a vacation to her, she goes on a trip to visit old friends. In addition to that the problems that they are experiencing in L.A. are problems that she can solve, very much different than what is happening in Sunnydale. The only time when to me her cheerfulness seemed forced was when she was trying to make Wesley laugh, and I think that that was intended to feel forced.
In short the reason we get what seems more like a S3 or S4 Willow, is that she is in an S3 or S4 situation.
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I think you've got it -- Scroll, 20:34:29 03/20/03 Thu
That's the best explanation I've heard so far. Willow reverts back to S3-4 Willow, just as Wesley reverts back to S1-2 Wesley. They're both a little awkward, trying to figure out how much the other has changed, and yet still keeping up a facade of being their "old" selves. Makes a lot of sense!
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Bless You! -- Belladonna, 12:52:20 03/21/03 Fri
Thanks so much...it was killing me not to know what happened!!
Escaping Hell - spoilers for Orpheus -- Scroll, 00:21:31 03/20/03 Thu
This is not going to be a very insightful post, just some thoughts. I'm probably missing a slew of things. Heh, I used the word "slew". Anyway...
Orpheus
The musician who went to hell to get his dead wife back, but who ultimately failed because he doubted and looked back. Go see the wonderful post on Orpheus by Veronica, in Archive 3.
Escaping Hades
Angelus and Faith are in hell. A very funny hell with scary wigs and Barry Manilow. Faith thinks she's done her part, that she can "lay her arms down and rest at last". Angel tells her to get up. To fight. He tells her what Buffy told him in "Amends". That to be strong is to fight, every day. That Faith's time, Angel's time, will never be up because nothing they do ever balances out the scales. They fight because it's necessary. And so Faith leaves hell, saves the day, and goes to the Hellmouth. Faith does not go gentle into that good night.
Wesley is in a hell of his own making. He's locked up his sense of humour in a jar. He's done his best to stuff his feelings into a dark closet and thrown away the key. But a little chat with our resident witch/Ultimate Evil shows him that he can't dwell on his past mistakes. That those mistakes shouldn't be a cage around him for the rest of his life. (But I must say, Willow's flippancy about almost destroying the world is rather questionable, though funny for this scene.)
Angelus and Angel can't get out of hell alone. They need Willow to re-ensoul them, and Faith to keep resentful teenage-types from dusting them. A voice chanting in Romani guides Angel up out of hell, restoring him.
Persephone
Cordelia as Queen of the Dead? (BTW, I have absolutely no idea what role Persephone plays in the Orpheus myth. I'm making it up.) Cordy traps Angel's soul in a jar and won't let it free. I don't know what is up with her crazy-creepy tassley outfit. Loved Cordy and Willow's eye-rolling of Faith as drama queen: "Coma again."
Poor Connor, played like a piano. Love his little crush on Faith, though that might be dead now that she has thoroughly kicked his ass, preventing him from Protecting His Family and thus causing him to be a Bad Father (tm Angel).
How much did I love Angel's jonesing for a hug? Very cute. And Faith and Gunn are hand-slapping! I miss the hand-slapping. Gunn and Wes need to do their hand-slapping/fist-bopping secret handshake thing again.
Somebody explain to me why Fred suddenly has more magic ability and better Latin than Wesley?
AD and AH are just the cutest couple ever. End of season last year, somebody was speculating what those two talked about when they got home from work: "Yeah, I kidnapped a baby, got nearly murdered twice, turned away from my friends, and had sex with an evil lawyer." "Really? Well, I got high on magic, flayed a man alive, sucked the magic out of Giles, and tried to destroy the world." "Really? Damn, you win!" And then, we get "Orpheus" and I have to wonder how on earth Alexis and Aly managed to keep a straight face in that scene! BTW, these two are such amazing actors. Loved how AD reverted to Seasons 1/2 Wesley? And is it just me, or did Wes and Gunn seem to twinge on the Willow/Fred vibe? That was funny, especially AD. I can just see his brain going, she's just acting. She's just acting! Right?
Faith is just lovely. She really needs a spin-off. Come on, we need a Faith/Wesley spin-off! Who's with me?
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Nobody has any comments? Bummer... -- Scroll, 12:55:06 03/20/03 Thu
Just wanted to add that the puppy rescue was just about the Cutest. Thing. Ever. I could really feel Angelus' pain. He was in hell for sure. Heh.
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Oh Scroll! -- Masq, 13:42:52 03/20/03 Thu
It's one of those posts I downloaded to save for later and possibly use in my episode analysis. Didn't read it completely through with all brain cells in tact. But I will now. ; )
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Sorry, Scroll. I just feel I 'haven't seen the episode yet' and can't comment. -- cjl, 13:46:43 03/20/03 Thu
Of course, I saw 40 out of 45 minutes, but I'm a little too distracted by real world problems (micro and macro) to write a cohesive analysis or form an opinion that makes sense. Let me watch the ep again on Sunday, ruminate, and I'll dive in.
I think a lot of people on the board might feel this way.
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Sorry scroll, thanks for summaries below -- s'kat, 14:05:50 03/20/03 Thu
I haven't replied really to any posts today b/c the voy demon won't let me. I tried replying five times to the people who kindly posted summaries below - and finally gave up. Thanks for that btw!! Yours was amongst the best.
But until I re-watch the episode in its entirety, it's hard for me to post on it. Also well, real world events, the voy demon, and other crap is distracting me at the moment.
For the record? I agree with much of what you said above.
Orpheus disappointed me a bit, can't put my finger on why.
And I find myself agreeing a little with Masq's comments on it.
Anyways thanks again for your post and your summaries.
Sorry don't have more to add.
Let's hope this posts...tried twice already.
SK
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Sorry Scroll! -- ponygirl, 13:55:52 03/20/03 Thu
I meant to comment sooner! It's kind of a weird day both reality and virtual-wise. I thought your comments were great.
I'm still a bit grumpy about the metaphysical implications of this episode, so I'm not sure if I'm being entirely fair when I say I didn't like it. I'll have to give it another viewing with your points in mind.
I am wondering who was supposed to be Orpheus and Eurydice in this story. After all one of the key parts of the Orpheus story is that he failed. I'm hoping that we will find that Angel's old life, his ideas of himself as separate from Angelus, is what has been left behind in the underworld.
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Just realising people might not have *seen* the ep yet! -- Scroll, 14:19:46 03/20/03 Thu
Hey, I'm all kinds of patient. Just was wondering why the board was so quiet. But I suppose it makes sense, what with Voy being all wonky and the fighting started... I've been watching/reading too much news stuff myself. I needed some Angel to clear my head. That's why I posted on it.
ponygirl, I really enjoyed the ep, but still had problems with it. So you're not the only one, I'm sure. Yes, the metaphysics issue re: Angel/Angelus is a sticky one. I hope they get around to clarifying the issue some time before the end of the season. I agree with Masq in her post to Darby re: Angelus being submerged in Angel, etc.
As for the episode as a whole, I really did enjoy, especially the first time around. It was hilarious in parts and certainly a welcome change to have funny after so many episodes of dark.
There were, however, a few things that leapt out at me as being unnecessary and awkward. Willow's reticence at coming out to Wesley being one, especially since it's been firmly established that Willow is very much a, "Hello? Gay now!" type of lesbian. Not to mention that Cordy has known for years that Willow is gay, and we're supposed to believe that Cordelia never once mentioned this fact to Angel or Wesley? The scene was played for laughs, so I'm willing to mostly overlook it. Very well acted on both their parts, however.
Also, Cordy has spent the past half season being subtly evil and manipulative. I guess I can fanwank her spaz attack on Connor as her "hormones" going out of whack, but really, why did she lose her cool like that? So far, we've seen that Evil!Cordelia is patient and that her anger is restrained and constructive (i.e. her anger at Angelus trying to track her down). Now she's shoving her baby's teenage father into a wall and making remarks about Faith and whip-cracking? Er....
These were just little things that threw me out of the moment. Nothing huge, and on the whole I really liked this episode. Very fun, had some interesting things to say re: Faith and Angel/us, and re: Wesley and Willow.
If there's no spin-off next year, we really need Willow to move over to Angel. Faith too. Cuz that would be cool : )
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quick comment -- Alison, 14:53:40 03/20/03 Thu
I didn't get the feeling that Cordelia lost her cool. I think that she was manipulating Connor YET again-- frighten him, lay on the guilt trip, make him think the baby was special..then act like it was just a mood swing and let the guilt simmer below the surface. He can't get angry at her, but he can brood over what she said.
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No way, her anger was real (spoilers) -- Scroll, 19:40:35 03/20/03 Thu
I don't deny she tried to manipulate him, but only after Connor said that he'd do anything for her. Cordelia pushed him into the wall in a fit of uncontrolled anger and jealousy.
There's no way she was faking that anger about Faith, though she immediately shifts to manipulating Connor about not being a better father than Angel. You can see her eyes shift once Connor says he would do anything to protect Cordelia and their baby. That's when she pulls the "whoops! hormones!" cover-up.
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Evil doesn't = keeping your cool (spoiler Orpheus and CwDP) -- lunasea, 22:37:57 03/21/03 Fri
Cordy pulling the "hormones" line (which an ardent feminist approved, so now we KNOW she is evil, if there was any doubt), reminded me of Cassie/First saying that trying to get Willow to commit suicide was going too far.
Evil makes mistakes. As Cordy gets more evil, she gets more arrogant. She thinks she has Connor wrapped around her pinky and that will be her ultimate downfall. She has dropped her guard around him. Nothing undoes anyone like hubris.
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Re: No way, her anger was real (spoilers) -- Alison, 15:34:50 03/22/03 Sat
Nope, I just re-watched Orpheus, and I still disagree with you. I think she was building up to him saying he'd do "anything" for her and the baby..she needed to hear that. Once she had, then she used the hormones excuse.
I do agree though, that she was very angry about Faith..I just think she was using that anger as a means to achieve an end.
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Escaping Hades (no spoilers) -- Masq, 14:02:18 03/20/03 Thu
Nothing to say in response to this, your comments say it themselves. Very likely they will appear in my ep analysis.
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Actually, there is one thing... (Orpheus spoilers) -- Masq, 14:14:24 03/20/03 Thu
Connor being played like a piano. Up until last night, I was comfortable with this, and then last night something about it bothered me. I just yelled at the TV, "Come on, kid, get a clue!!"
I think it was when Evil!Cordelia asked him to kill Angelus against everything she's said up to that point. I mean, even Connor looked suspicious. Then he went downstairs and tried anyway. And he tried anyway because he himself has been consistently "Kill Angelus" since Angelus emerged.
I guess I'm a bit weary of that, though. I want to see a little appreciation of this father. A little hesitation, like--do I really believe there's no hope that Angel will return? Do Ireally not love my father at all, want him back enough to hope and spare the stake?
But Connor tries anyway. It was disheartening for this Connor-Angel shipper.
But back to the naivete issue. The way he is being played by Evil!Cordelia was fine until last night, precisely, I think, because she was SO over the top. Pushing him violently. Giddy. Telling him to kill Angelus. I mean, even a kid as NAIVE as Connor has got to start having his suspicions. Instead, it's "Cordelia the mother of my child can do no wrong."
Is he that needy of a family that he'll take CrazyCordy and her luvchild? I guess if I thought it was my child, I might be protective too, but it's hard to overlook weirdness. I think I would think, if I were him, "The mother of my child is really getting WEIRD. That makes me uncomfortable."
But of course, Connor has only seen the realities of human life, like human behavior and pregnant women behavior for a year now, and has no frame of reference for this.
It's too bad he doesn't feel close enough to Wesley, Gunn or Fred to ask them if this is normal. Instead, he's just letting himself get squeezed in a vice grip of deception to the others. That's got to make him uncomfortable, even if he doesn't admit it to anyone but himself right?
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Re: Actually, there is one thing... (Orpheus spoilers) -- LittleBit, 15:25:24 03/20/03 Thu
Regarding Connor and his apparent cluelessness --- I keep reminding myself that he spent all of his formative years under the care of a man who was so fiercely protective/avenging of his family that he made a deal with a demon just to be able to wreak his vengeance. So I have to wonder what he was taught about family values. He may simply be responding to some very ingrained ideas. It will be interesting to see how reality impacts what he thinks he knows.
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I wish he would express some of those ideas -- Masq, 15:43:09 03/20/03 Thu
It would help if Connor talked a little about what he thinks a family is, why it's important to him, what Holtz taught him about women, family, anything. Yes, I remind myself that he was brought up in an environment that was not only sheltered, but that was devoid of almost all cultural frames of reference and experiences we take for granted, that almost everything he knows of human culture and behavior is second-hand, and that he knew no women at all until he was 17.
But if he'd just vocalize his naive assumptions a little, it would help. We have to supply the reasons for his naivete ourselves, rather than having some of them shown to us. All we see is the effect (the naivete) not the cause (his upbringing), and it makes for a credulity gap that we can certainly fill in with our imaginations, but....
You know what I'm rambling about?
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Re: I wish he would express some of those ideas -- LittleBit, 16:12:19 03/20/03 Thu
Actually, yes I do. I'd like very much to stop having to remind myself about him because they finally made things clear in the show.
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Connor is lacking in 'verbalized' inner struggle (orpheus spoilers) -- Tyreseus, 18:09:34 03/20/03 Thu
I think you described in the posts above exactly what I was trying to get across last week. We can all tell that there is some inner struggle going on in Connor (or at least we hope so, if we're a Connor-Angel shipper) but we never hear it verbalized.
On the contrary, everything out of Connor's mouth is definitive, black&white, a formed opinion. I cite as example the conversation at the beginning of Orpheus (just before Willow arrives), where Connor advocates killing Angelus.
But what was interesting about that conversation to me was that it showed more self-awareness than many previous arguments Connor has gotten into. "You all think that I'm making this personal." Is, in a way, ackowedging that it is personal. Then he follows it up with non-personal reasons.
But I'm not so sure Connor was "played like a piano." Didn't Cordelia just tell him things he already believed? He was just waiting for someone to give him permission to do it. "Sometimes one death can prevent countless others." As much as Connor acts like he'll play by his own rules and doesn't answer to anyone, his actions show him constantly trying to win the approval of someone - Cordelia, Fred, Faith, the ghost of Hultz?
And maybe, (I'm tasting this idea in my mind) that's the core element to understanding Connor. If you strip away the bravado, the angst, the genetic sneer, the non-chalant attitude toward his mistakes... you just have a teenager seeking validation. That the AI team haven't given it to him has made him all the more susceptible to Evil!Cordelia's manipulation.
Okay, not a ground-breaking revelation - many posters made similar comments at the beginning of the season - but it makes a lot more sense to me now.
Anyone else hoping that Connor got a little something out of Faith's parting shot at him? (paraphrased Connor to Gunn: I get it, I messed up. Faith to Connor: We've all been there.) Unlike the other characters, Connor hasn't begun to understand guilt and redemption on an intrinsic level. I still don't think he does, but I hope that he will by the end of the season - obviously, Evil!Cordelia is leading him down the path of bad choices. Of course, he has to see the suffering and pain he causes before he can feel the need to atone.
Well, rambling again. Great comments, Masq and Littlebit.
Here's hoping the Voynok isn't still eating all my threads.
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Guilt and redemption -- Arethusa (who else?), 20:29:42 03/20/03 Thu
In Orpheus, Angel rejects the idea of redemption. He tells Faith that "Our time is never up.... We pay for everything." Does he need to reject his feelings of guilt, too-feeling that might be splitting him in two? Are both BtVS and AtS both working towards the same goal-the integration of light and dark aspects in the main characters? Buffy will probably have to acknowledge-or "own"-the demon inside her to defeat the evil forces ahead. Angel is experiencing the same problem, only literally. The two parts of him are at war inside his/Faith's mind(s). The demon is reburied, but not integrated-Angel still sees it as a separate entity. His feelings of guilt might be keeping him from acknowledging Angelus as part of himself. Therefore, he will have to release his feelings of guilt to integrate.
If this is the case, there could be a very valid reason for the confusion regarding Cordy/Evil!Cordy. If the Beast Master took over Cordy's body like the demon took over Angelus, using her (stolen?) memories and personality to manipulate those around her, Cordy will have to face the same issues as Angel, thereby serving as a counterpoint to his own delimma, and possibly helping him release his feelings of guilt. She'll need to examine how much of E!C's evil behavior˙
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Voy chewed up my post. Blast! -- Arethusa, 20:42:02 03/20/03 Thu
I'll try to reproduce the rest. Curses!! @#$%^&!
...is her own fault. If E!C isn't Cordy at all, just wearing a Cordy suit, she is still culpable because her vanity lead to her capture, as KdS and Masq postulated.
Guilt, redemption, justice and forgiveness-these are all issues Angel is dealing with. He's realized that he can't ask for forgiveness, justice will never restore what he stole from others, and redemption was an illusion. If he is able to rid himself of his debilitating feelings of guilt, will he finally be able to integrate?
Or am I looking at everything through Arethusa-colored glasses?
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Faith to Connor: -- Veronica, 23:35:05 03/20/03 Thu
"That just makes you one of us."
Perfect phrase. Exactly what Connor needs.
-V
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I was going to comment -- Sarand, 15:07:45 03/20/03 Thu
No, really, I was but then work reared its ugly head and I got distracted. I specifically took note of your comment about Willow's "flippancy" regarding her journey to the dark side. I found that scene to be somewhat disturbing. Although it may just be me because I'm rather disappointed in the way BtVS has dealt with the Willow redemption arc. I also found AH's performance to be just weird and didn't know whether that was intentional or not. As someone pointed out in another post, she was like S3 or S4 Willow and it felt wrong to me. I realize that it's a different show and a writer who may be unfamiliar with the character, but surely ME knows that many people who watch Angel also watch BtVS so why would they let the character behave so differently? I don't get it.
Anyway, for me, good things and bad things in this episode. Loved Faith but Evil!Cordy? Agreeing with Masq on this one: she was so over the top that I just started laughing. More subtlety would have been more convincing to me. But from the last scene it looks like sublety may be out the window.
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Re: Escaping Hell - spoilers for Orpheus -- fresne, 17:32:02 03/20/03 Thu
Well, I wanted to make comments, but then I was eaten by meeting hell, which is only fair because work does pay me. Although, by the end of the day the meetings were OT city.
I'm still a bit brain jello-ed, I can't even express how Friday this afternoon has felt. Crazy days.
Therefore, I'm going to ramble factoids about Orpheus (the legend the episode). I'm pretty sure I'm repeating, but que sera and whatnot.
Persephone's role in the Orpheus legend. That's a good question, since it varies from story to story.
An interesting connection, given the presence of our favorite witch, is that Persephone, again depending on your myth, begins as Kore (the Maiden), is Persephone (during the Hades abduction story) and eventually becomes Hecate (Queen of Witches and Hell). Dante parallels her (Persephone) with Medusa in Inferno when the Furies attempt to summon Medusa at the Gates of Dis. So, in an going Buffy the Medusa/Kali/etc. sort of way, so to Faith. After her time of isolation, to once again re-emerge into the Sunnyhell fight.
In the Orpheus legend both Persephone and Hades are reduced to tears by Orpheus' song. Even the Furies were reduced to tears. Manilow?
Persephone's handmaidens were the Sirens (half women, half birds not to be confused with harpies), who were commonly depicted on Greek funerary monuments guarding the gates to Hades, etc. These were the same Sirens who lured sailors to their watery graves with their tantalizing song. Orpheus, who was on the quest for the Golden Fleece, out sang the Sirens when the Argos sailed by their shore. Lorne singing to sleeping Faith?
Orpheus, after he began his career as a talking head, ended up on the isle of Lesbos. Sapphic poetry anyone?
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Faith = Persephone, or Connor = Persephone? -- Scroll, 19:56:40 03/20/03 Thu
Faith weeps for Angel and herself while she's "in the barrens", as Lorne calls it. So Faith is Persephone, abducted into Angelus' hell? And maybe Willow is Hecate, and Connor is Kore, the innocent maiden/youth? Or is Connor also Persephone, drawn into hell by Evil!Cordelia?
Dante parallels her (Persephone) with Medusa in Inferno when the Furies attempt to summon Medusa at the Gates of Dis.
And I'm reminded that Lilah gave Wesley a copy of Dante's Inferno way back when. So Willow is also Persephone/Medusa because the Furies/Fred summoned her at the Gates of Dis?
Eh, don't mind me. I really have no idea what I'm talking about. Never read Inferno. But I like Manilow as Orpheus, reducing Angel and Angelus both to tears -- though for different reasons, of course : )
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Inferno reprise (spoilers for Orpheus) -- fresne, 21:03:20 03/20/03 Thu
Ah, yes, the copy of Inferno. One of the most apt literary references ever. Count Urbino frozen in vengeance. The father devouring the son(s) parallels. With six eyes Lucifer weeping trapped by his own behavior. Good stuff.
Anyway, re: reading Inferno...well, if you want to feel like you have read Inferno, in a blatant piece of self promotion, try last year's Dante and Virgil's wild and wacky, yet Efficacious, Adventures in the Lands Buffalonious, Angelic, and Britannic, with some small appearances by familiar characters: a Comedy in 3 parts (three parts each,sortof) It's fanfic with footnotes. And who doesn't love that?
Anyway, perhaps Faith is Euridice, drawn too early from life. It's just that this time, she rescues herself from Hades. Not held back by brooding on the past (i.e. looking back) I want to say that Wesley is Hades who must learn to smile and weep and hand slap, which may be stretching things, but I'm a flow diagram queen so, eh!
Cordelia is the Siren, deadly with knowledge past and future (the sirens had that power, as all the dead have), sitting on the shore. Connor is the sailor, who hopefully will not soon be home from the sea.
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My God -- stick figures!!! -- Scroll, 21:54:17 03/20/03 Thu
Thank you so much for the link. I opened it up, clicked "Previously", and promptly burst out laughing. Stick Figure Dante! I will read this fanfic, and learn about the Inferno, and hopefully return to this board enlightened and typing in the original Tuscan.
Of all the literary references we've seen on Buffy and Angel, I love the Inferno and "The Second Coming" allusions best. They're just so fitting with their ominous descriptions of doom and despair. Cordelia is the sphynx, moving its slow things, who will soon be rocking the cradle. And I think I agree that Wesley needs to learn to laugh and weep and hand-slap in his private hell. His awkward sharing with Willow seems to have given him a new perspective -- though I still want some angst, especially regarding Cordy killing Lilah. AD does angst so well... ;)
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It takes an ATPoer to write fanfic with footnotes! -- Masq, 09:11:01 03/21/03 Fri
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This is just too delightful! -- Masq, 11:30:08 03/21/03 Fri
I laughed! I cried! I clicked on hypertext footnotes with the delight that only one who makes them herself quite often can do!
Although... did you have to make Angel such a dork? 'Tis true, two people can look upon the same character and see very different things.
OK, now I'm starting to talk like the robed protagonist of this much-blessed piece of fic.
I'll go... back to work now.
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Delightful stick figures or fiendish Tuscan plot film at 11:00 with Orpheus spoilers -- fresne, 11:58:02 03/22/03 Sat
And now, oh Voy demon, please grant my petition to post that I might profer thanks and response, as that mighty Voy daemon which makes walls to fall and wounds to ooze allows, my thoughts gently tack and turn to the net.
With my fingers skimming the keys like comets streaking to earth, oh, my I'm listening to Punk - Like a Prayer, my brain melting like goo before some goo melting thing.
Here then I make my intentions plain, it was my deepest desire that every character be in some way dorkish except Oz and Giles, even though he be barefoot. Personages are easier to write when they are but caricatures of themselves, stick figures writ large upon the page. Alas poor Angel, Angelus, Liam, so divided and subject to Ovidian metamorphosis. Cordelia sphinx slouching woman, glowing white eyed demon, opposed by dark eyed witch who changes by staying the same.
Imagine the debates in Limbo as varied philosophers of ancient clime debate their favorite ship and characters. No two indeed seeing through the same lens. But always long in exposition. Who is Orpheus, Ovid asks? Who is Euridice? Being a devout spoiler trollop, he knows what's up with Cordelia, but he'll never tell.
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Confirmation on E!Cordy -- Veronica, 23:28:23 03/20/03 Thu
I don't know what is up with her crazy-creepy tassley outfit.
I am completely convinced that Cordelia is possessed.
Even Evil, she wouldn't be caught dead in that outfit.
-Veronica
(tongue firmly in cheek)
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Yes, Evil!Cordy will, at some point, be a meal for Honorificus -- Pushy Queen of Slut Town, 17:37:58 03/22/03 Sat
Vampire Psychology 201 - Angelus & Screwtape (Orpheus spoilers) -- Darby, 09:56:10 03/20/03 Thu
One of the most disturbing books I've ever read was C.S. Lewis" The Screwtape Letters, about a demon whose job it was to influence the decisions of his assigned human. I was at that age where my own psyche was fairly mysterious, and although I didn't believe that my thoughts were tweaked by an unseen entity, Lewis knew so much about how the Dark Side of human thought processes work that he prevented an out-of-hand dismissal of the premise - it all just resonated with how my head worked.
In Orpheus, we have Angelus, the dark vampire demon, playing Screwtape, reacting with frustration at Angel's good decisions and triumph at the darker ones. I thought at first that we were getting a clarification on vampire mythology, a look behind the curtain at just how much of the vampire is that inner demon, but then I realized that Angelus is not only an unreliable narrator, he's an unreliable observer. But Angel isn't. Or is he?
Angel could use the Angelus soul as a scapegoat, the "voice in his head" that is behind the dark episodes of his life, but he isn't willing to do that. In a parallel to Faith, who must avoid hiding her acts behind a hard life, Angel sees his Dark Side as totally independent of Angelus. But maybe, with his Burden of Guilt, he isn't being truly fair to his near-unique situation. Angelus gets blamed for unsouled Angel's transgressions - can he get blamed any for Angel's excursions into Darkness?
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Posters beware - it took more than 5 minutes for this to post after acceptance! -- Darby, 10:10:32 03/20/03 Thu
I got the "Message Posted" screen, and used the "back to the index" link, but my post wasn't there. Nor on reload, nor on opening my browser yet again. I went to check the archives for it (stranger things have happened) and only when I came back was it here. I've heard of wonky, but things are WONKY right now...
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Testing -- Testing, 10:38:56 03/20/03 Thu
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Re: Vampire Psychology 201 - Angelus & Screwtape (Orpheus spoilers) -- ponygirl, 10:40:14 03/20/03 Thu
One of my big frustrations with Orpheus was the failure to deal with Angel's IMHO entirely self-constructed personality split. If the idea of Angel/Angelus being two entirely separate people were just his own delusion, I would just accept it as his particular coping mechanism, but everyone on AtS seems to buy into it. It's almost to the point where we seem to be having a different set of metaphysics for AtS than is being used on BtVS.
In the end I'm left with the question of whether we're supposed to take the shot of the fusion of Angelus into Angel as an integration or a stuffing of the demon back into his box.
Rolling the voy dice. Here's hoping this posts.
Reply to Darby--can't seem to reply to your post -- Masq, 10:51:06 03/20/03 Thu
I'm not sure this is responding to your point, Darby, but I have been a bit disturbed in recent episodes by what I perceive to be a bit of wavering contradiction or retcon on the part of ME concerning Angel and Angelus.
In most episodes of both shows up until now, Angel referred to his time as Angelus in the first person. He seemed to accept that Angelus was himself sans soul, with the soul being the conscience.
This is of course, a direct contradiction of the old Watcher's Council adage that the demon is "not the same person" as the human soul, but we have all become comfortable with seeing that as simply false. Spike, Angel(us), Darla--all the vampires we have encountered who have been ensouled have referred to their soulless versions as being themselves, as being one and the same person with the same consciousness, memories, etc. The only difference being the presence of absence of a soul.
This later viewpoint is essential to understanding most of what occurs with these characters in terms of guilt, in terms of the unity of the person as souls come and go madly (Season 2 AtS Darla being a good example of this).
But it has now become the habit of the Angel Investigations team to refer to Angel and Angelus as distinctly different people, different entities, if you will. That's fine, they might need to believe that in order to deal with their friend having this disturbing past.
Except sometimes they do this, and sometimes they don't. It goes back and forth wildly.
In "Apocalypse Nowish" Cordelia says "I saw everything YOU did as Angelus". In "Soulless" she tells Angelus that Angel "Can't wait to get rid of you" as if he is a seperate entity. Again, we can attribute this to ambivalence on the part of AI.
Even as recently as "Awakening" when Angel is talking to Wesley, he corrects himself, saying, "I remember everything Angelus--everythingI did".
Now jump to "Release" when Evil!Cordelia is trying to get the upper hand with Angelus. She tells him she will return his soul, so that he is once again "trapped" within Angel. She says distinctly that Angelus is "fully aware, fully conscious" within Angel, a completely seperate consciousness, watching Angel from within, forming its own unique judgments, having its own thoughts.
This viewpoint is reinforced in "Orpheus" where Angelus talks about being an observer of Angel's behavior as if he is a different person.
Now, it occurs to me that what we have here is simply a big case of denial on the part of Angel Investigations and Angel himself. They don't want to think of Angelus as the dark side of their friend, so they talk about the demon within. Angel and Angelus can be seen as a very real case of Multiple Personality Disorder, Dissociative Identity Disorder on the part of an Angel who desperately wants to not think of himself as doing the things he did (thanks to Rufus for this notion).
That's all fine and good, but then ME seems to take the idea that Angel and Angelus are distinct beings and puts it into the metaphysics of the events on the show, not just the attitude of the characters. Angel had his memory wiped of the 18th-century encounter with the Beast, but this did not effect Angelus because his mind was "not there" at the time the memory mojo was done.
Huh? First off, Angelus' mind is always there, as we learned last night during the flashbacks. Secondly, it seems to me emphasized over and over again that they have the SAME MIND, albeit split into two personalities in order to deal with guilt.
Except most of the time, Angel recognizes his own guilt and accepts it. He accepts that Angelus and he are the same personality.
So I think perhaps that "memory mojo" was all a fake ploy on the part of the Beast's Boss. That Angelus in fact never met the Beast in the 1800's and there is nothing therefore to remember or forget. The alleged memories were put into Angelus' head when the soul was removed in "Awakening" so he could have something to report to the gang. More Evil!Cordelia mind-fucking. I like that.
But... in "Orpheus" Faith says directly that "Angel is the one who should be on the outside". And when Angel is re-ensouled, we see Angelus "go back inside" Angel, rather than the soul go back inside Angelus.
So is it just me wringing my hands over complex metaphysics, or is ME just confused about their canon concerning Angel in particular? I have been waitng through all these eps for it to be said outright, "Angelus is Angel without a soul" and for Angel to accept responsibility for what he did while de-ensouled. Without that, Angel gets a "get out of jail free card".
Which he seemed to get last night. After he is re-ensouled, all his friends are relaxed and happy around him as if glad that "monster" is safely trapped back inside of him and Angel is blameless for its behavior.
Maybe we'll see angst and blame arise in coming episodes as the gang re-evaluates their beliefs, or at least, as ANGEL re-evaluates what happened and realizes he is responsible for what happened.
It just seems below ME's standards to try to get Angel off the hook by pulling some big ret-con about Angel and Angelus' relationship.
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And believe me, I tried about seven times -- Masq, 10:54:46 03/20/03 Thu
That "testing" was me seeing if anything could go through.
With the post above, it kept telling me the post I was trying to "view" didn't exist. Urgh.
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Exactly! -- ponygirl, 11:07:20 03/20/03 Thu
A perfect assessment of the situation, Masq. Normally I would say that ME is setting us up for a reversal, but the way the Angelus storyline has been handled makes me uncertain that this is the case. For me this is THE issue of the season, but all the plot twistiness that's been going on makes me worried that the remaining episodes are going to focus on the "what's up with Cordy" question.
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Actually, the way the Angelus story line was handled -- Masq, 11:15:26 03/20/03 Thu
Is consistent with the Angelus = Angel sans soul/same person viewpoint. They make Angelus less threatening than usual so that thre are fewer reprecussions when Angel gets his soul back. He has less to feel guilty for because as Angelus, as himself sans soul, he committed less mayhem.
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It's consistently inconsistent -- Darby, 12:42:04 03/20/03 Thu
I see Angel as Psychopath Angel on Medication - they are aspects of the same "person," but like some schizophrenics, Angelus' actions have no moral filter and it, in a very real sense, it isn't "him." The problem comes in trying to discuss actions made by the same person in two wildly different frames of mind.
Might not a schizophrenic on medication feel terribly guilty about the evil their unmedicated self had done? Might their friends and relatives console them with, "It wasn't really you," a reasonable sentiment but not easily applied in every discussion? This is how I see Angel and AI, and how they discuss Angelus is more a function of the context of the moment than the mythology of the Buffyverse.
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I'm not so much concerned with what the characters think -- Masq, 13:32:29 03/20/03 Thu
Angel, or any of them,
as what ME thinks. I don't want them turning Angel and Angelus into two distinct metaphysical entities/consciousnesses/persons within Angel's head. If they do this, Angel can dust his hands of Angelus' deeds. He truly "wasn't present" when Angelus was "out". He has no need to atone, apologize, or in anyway take responsibility for Angelus' deeds. "Angel left the building" leaving the monster that lives in the backroom of his brain to come out and wreak havoc in his body.
It's the wrong metaphor. It goes against the theme of the entire 4 years of the show--that Angel did these bad things in the past, and occassionally in the present (during the "Angelus" periods) and though he can never make up for them, he can struggle to be a better person.
Angelus just is Angel unfettered by remorse. All the daddy issues, the hates, the bitterness, and the crap we get from life, all the things inside Angel/Liam are allowed to spew themselves out and call themselves "Angelus". But it is still Liam.
I can fully buy that these two are different personalities/aspects of the same person, that Angel's mind has somehow fractured a bit, but it is one mind, one person fractured from the strain of guilt.
But I vehemently dislike the idea that they are two different people in the same head, which is what seemed to be implied in "Orpheus" and "Release".
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It all depends on what you view as making up the true essence of a person. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:36:55 03/20/03 Thu
The problem with the whole "Are Angel and Angelus the same person, or are they different?" issue is that first there has to be agreement over what defines someone as a person.
Are we our personality? Are we the sum of all our memories, experiences, and personal issues inter-relating in incredibly complex ways to form our persona?
Or are we our spiritual essence? Are our true selves our connection to a mystical/divine force?
Without reaching a decision on these questions, the quandry of how Angel and Angelus relate can't be resolved.
The issue seems to be inconsistent from the ME writers, I think, because each of them looks at the show through their own light. For an Atheist writer(which we know at least Joss is, and possibly some of the writers are as well), the natural instinct is to look on the soul as conscience only. After all, since Atheists don't believe in souls in real life, they consider the true essence of a person to be his/her persona, the result of his/her interacting memories and experiences.
However, for someone with a Theistic background, it will probably be looked at differently; in many religious faiths, a person's soul doesn't contain their memories or personality, but is still the true essence of the person. A Theist might look on the Angel/Angelus issue in a way similar to how Hindus look at karma: after reincarnation, people supposedly lose all their memories and personality, but are still considered to be the same person as from their past lives, and still have the karma they accumulated them. Likewise, even though Angel and Angelus have the same personality and memories, they are different spirits, so they aren't affected by each other's karma. And this way of looking at it isn't limited to Hindus; the belief of the true essence of someone's humanity being his/her soul, totally seperate from his/her mind, is common to many religions, including many Christian denominations. However, not all Theists would fall down this path. Roman Catholics, at least, most likely wouldn't, since they believe that someone can suffer the consequences of sin (such as original sin, which has to be baptised out) without actually commiting any sin.
What it comes down to is, different writers bring their own interpretation of Angel and Angelus to the table. It's like with soulless Spike: some writers wrote their episodes as though he could care about right and wrong without a soul, and others said that without one he would invariably do the wrong thing when given the opportunity. The executive producers didn't stop them and force their own interpretations in, and they don't seem to be doing that on Angel. On such big quandries as these, the guys in charge seem pretty willing to let the writers of each episode bring their own viewpoint to the mix, just so long as they don't come out and say "Angel is/isn't the same as Angelus!" or "Spike can/can't be redeemed!" After all, they probably enjoy the fact that we're knocking our brains out trying to figure which is right, and aren't about to let anyone solve the issue. :)
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Recently re-read 'Children of Dune' -- Veronica, 22:44:46 03/20/03 Thu
This issue comes up in "Children of Dune" with regards to the pre-born and Other memory. Leta and Ghanima make the point that it was her denial of the presence of others that makes Alia suceptible to their influence.
I see something similar possible with Angel. I don't feel strongly one way or the other, so I'm just exploring the possiblity...
Angel's denial of his demon-self (desouled Angelus) has caused a fractured view or even fractured personality. His very denial of the demon-self gives it power - so much power that it can appear to Angel as strong as his true-self (souled Angel). The vision we were given as viewers of the dream/hell-state was probably a product of Angel/us' mind, and therefore represented his perception of the relationship between the two. He wants to view the demon-self as "Other" to deny it's power - and in doing so gives it more power.
Just some thoughts...
Veronica
(who is not commenting on the SciFi miniseries, but is glad it reminded her to re-read the books)
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Hold that thought, Darb; will comment extensively after Sunday's WB rebroadcast -- cjl, 13:19:09 03/20/03 Thu
For those who haven't heard--
The WB will rebroadcast "Orpheus" from 9:00-10:00 p.m. EST on Sunday night.
(Barring further intrusions from the real world, of course.)
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Yay!!! Thanks for passing this on!! -- s'kat, 13:35:10 03/20/03 Thu
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Masq, I stand by what I said about the 'Osiris Complex' -- Rufus, 15:15:07 03/20/03 Thu
Remember if you think of Liam/Angel/Angelus as a metaphysical form of MPD it makes sense that one part of the fractured mind would meet something and the other part may not be able to recall that memory.
Contrary to prevalent opinion, MPD patients do not have more than one personality; the so-called different personalities are fragmented components of a single personality, abnormally personified and dissociated from each other. Adult patients exhibit core symptoms: voices in the head and ongoing blank spells or periods of missing time. The voices are the different parts of the personality talking to one another and to the main, presenting part of the person who comes for treatment. Periods of missing time occur when aspects of the personality take turns being in control of the body and memory barriers are erected between them.
Why have I chosen The Osiris Complex as the title of this book? I coined the term in my previous book, Multiple Personality Disorder: Diagnosis, Clinical Features, and Treatment. The Osiris complex designates what I believe is the most important motif in psychopathology: the fragmentation of the self in response to external trauma. In the Isis-Osiris myth from ancient Egypt, Osiris is murdered by his jealous brother Set, who cuts him into pieces and scatters them far and wide. Isis then gathers her brother Osiris's fragments together, reintegrates them, and resurrects Osiris in a new form: this healing of the traumatized self is my task as a therapist. Fathered by Ra, Isis and Osiris were siblings who married and begot a son Horus, who in turn defeated his uncle Set in battle. The idea communicated by the phrase 'the Osiris complex' is that incest and other psychosocial trauma are at the root of much psychopathology, and can be a direct and overwhelming cause of serious mental illness.
Institutional, social, and economic barriers stand in the way of traumatized children and their recovery, in our society and throughout the world. Like many forms of inflammation, MPD is a normal human response to trauma that has become self destructive. MPD is an autoimmune disorder in which the psyche has become confused about the distinction between self and non-self, and has learned to turn its destructive mechanisms on the self, mistaking it for a foreign invader. Fortunately, over the last thirty years, a specific and effective method for treating this condition has been created through the joint effort of many clinicians.
"The Osiris Complex" by: Colin A. Ross, M.D.
It's clear that some things that have happened with Angelus could be behind a mind barrier that Angel/Liam can't access. Most of what happened as a soulless vampire Angel can remember, but there is no reason that a metaphysical block couldn't have been placed so Angel simply can't remember that part of his history. I don't think the status of the soul has changed....it's still a conscience but it's not the memory and with any trauma the mind can have an individual reaction or with some magical help the same sort of barrier to memory can be erected.
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Oh, I quoted you on my site for 'Calvary' -- Masq, 15:28:57 03/20/03 Thu
That whole thing about Angel, Angelus and MPD/DID. I jumped on the band-wagon in order to make sense of that migraine-causing "Angelus can remember and Angel can't because Angelus' mind wasn't there when the memory spell was cast". Puleeaze!
I am gung-ho with this theory, Ruf, because it is the only one that makes sense of the way Angelus and Angel are disavowing each other all of a sudden.
Again, as I said, I'm not so much concerned with what Angel, Angelus, or any of AI gang or Evil!Cordelia think, but what ME thinks, what metaphor they are trying to establish by making a metaphysical distinction between Angel and Angelus. If that metaphor is MPD/DID, then I'm fine with it. Angel and Angelus are still one and the same person, Liam, and Angel's guilt and attempts to be a better person work.
If the metaphor is that Liam has this "demon soul" inside of him that is a totally different person (as opposed to a different personality), and is a "hijacker" inside Angel's head, with his own thoughts, consciousness, etc., then Angel's guilty and his attempts at being a better person are pointless--he has nothing to feel guilty about, he isn't the same person who did all those bad things for 150 years. That was the hijacker.
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Re: Oh, I quoted you on my site for 'Calvary' -- Rufus, 18:09:10 03/20/03 Thu
How I see the situation is this....the mind is tricky and add in another element such as the fragment of demon soul that infects vampires, then you have a new deal going on. The person who once was is there, but like a child who is being punished, Angel/Liam is basically sent to his room, or like what Dr. Ross says..
the so-called different personalities are fragmented components of a single personality, abnormally personified and dissociated from each other. Dr. Colin Ross
The vampire, Angelus is Liam but an infection (or demon soul) has caused the mind to fracture resulting in Angelus who interacts with the world in one way which has dissociated from what is Angel/Liam. A barrier is set up that allows Angelus the freedom to do what he wants, the part of the mind that is Angel tormented over seeing what Angelus has done but without a soul, powerless to intervene. I see the human soul as that barrier that seperates Angelus from Angel. Both are always there but with no soul Angelus is the dominant personality. In Orpheus we see the results of a drug what is also boosted by magic causing everyone from Faith to Angel/Angelus to take an underworld trip. The purpose of this trip is to see just how conflicted Angel remains about Angelus. The soul is the barrier, without it Angelus is free, but even with a soul Angel is capable of listening to Angelus and do things he wouldn't normally do. What happens when Angel has his soul returned is that Angelus is sent to his room and the door locked....but he still can speak to Angel in the form of the cravings Angel gets for human blood and the fact that Angelus can exploit Angel's negative thoughts about himself and others.
The voices are the different parts of the personality talking to one another and to the main, presenting part of the person who comes for treatment. Dr. Ross
This time Angel's soul was given back to him he has had a chance to confront that other part of himself and make it clear that he is going to doublelock the room that Angelus is sent to when the soul erects that barrier that makes Angel/Liam dominant. Consider this trip to the underworld a therapy of sorts that will allow Angel to deal with that other voice he can sometimes hear but tries to ignore. This could mean that Angel is progressing enough to not let his guilt and insecurities distract him from doing the right thing. The ultimate cure would be to remove the demon infection and have Angel turned back to a human being.
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One way in which we differ... -- Masq, 18:46:13 03/20/03 Thu
Is I've decided (since at least the Pylean adventure) that the notion of a "demon soul" is a bit of Watcher's Council mythology. In fact, what infects the human being when they are made a vampire is a "demon physiology". That, coupled with the loss of their human soul (conscience) makes them basically into a blood-thirsty remorseless version of themselves. Angelus is just Angel without a conscience. One mind.
Now, this mind may have fractured along the lines of DID, and it is convenient to give the two alternate personalities the names "Angel" and "Angelus". "Angel" is the waking/dominant personality, Angelus is really only truly dominant when the soul (conscience) is absent. Otherwise, it is more a set of drives and attitudes and thoughts that spur Angel on to some of his more vicious behavior while souled.
Not all of it, though. Some of his more questionable actions (suffocating Wesley, for example) are not aspects of his Angelus drives. They are the sort of thing ANgel does out of misguided love (in this case, for Connor), an emotion the Angelus personality is not truly capable of.
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Re: One way in which we differ... -- Rufus, 19:53:46 03/20/03 Thu
Not all of it, though. Some of his more questionable actions (suffocating Wesley, for example) are not aspects of his Angelus drives. They are the sort of thing ANgel does out of misguided love (in this case, for Connor), an emotion the Angelus personality is not truly capable of.
I agree...but we have to remember that Angel had certain impulse problems before he was a vampire and when he does very human things like trying to off Wesley, that is Liam/Angel all the way....doesn't prevent Angelus from enjoying the show.
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Also, Ruf--a spoilery question -- Masq, 15:35:14 03/20/03 Thu
Will anyone be uncomfortable around Angel in the upcoming eps? Hold him responsible for the way he mentally tormented them in "Soulless". For allegedly killing Lilah? For biting Faith?
Or is everyone going to assume Angelus is just a little monster inside Angel that Angel has no responsibility over, who is safely tucked away again and everything's fine?
Having the characters "need" to believe this is one thing, but carrying it out to far goes against the angst that the Angel(us) metaphor is meant to set up. The drunk who does things while under the influence that he feels guilty for later. Who loses his inhibitions while drinking and lets his ISSUES come out.
That's what I'm concerned we're losing here. That's what I want some reassurance about in the way ME has been writing their dialogue.
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Re: Also, Ruf--a spoilery question -- Rufus, 17:37:14 03/20/03 Thu
They are going to be pretty much caught up with trying to figure out Cordy's pregnancy....the only one that will hold any sort of lingering doubts will be Connor, and we know that Connor is being influenced by whatever Cordy says. After ep 17 some of them will almost forget Cordy as something new will hold them under their thrall.
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Well, Angel's said some pretty hurtful things while he had a soul. -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:21:52 03/20/03 Thu
Not exactly his best moments, but he has said mean things to them before. Add in that he'll claim he didn't kill Lilah, and the fact that they'll probably decide to go easy on him since he has his soul again, I doubt things will be much worse than they were before.
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It doesn't have to be either/or--This is a REALLY complex issue -- David Arias, 18:32:38 03/20/03 Thu
I think the heart of the problem is defining whether the demonic entities that inhabit vampires are (a) actual conscious beings, or (b) something like what souls are sometimes implied to be (even though this is also debatable): A drive, a lust, a direction that influences the conscious being.
If it's (a), and we assume the soul isn't the conscious part of a person, but just a kind of moral center, that still leaves the multiple personality issue at Angel's doorstep, and an almost impossibly complex problem to resolve about whether or not he's truly responsible for Angelus's actions.
Whether or not Liam's consciousness is present in Angelus, or leaves with the soul, one thing is certain: Liam's memories, prior thoughts, and emotions, even the secret ones we all have that scare us, or make us feel ashamed, are what ultimately influence and drive Angelus's behavior.
This may drive Angel's guilt: All of his ugliest and most repressed emotions, his resentment (worse?) of his father, his insecurities and need to compensate for them (gone over many times), are all paraded for everyone to see in Angelus, who simply gives them an outlet. Maybe if he'd been a better person as Liam, Angelus wouldn't have so much to work with. This ties into what Darla said about him in Season 2.
And there's the added bonus that, no matter what conclusions he might come to about how seperate he and Angelus are logically, emotionally, he still experiences Angelus's memories as his own--not only the events themselves, but Angelus's emotions surrounding them--and still presently feels all of his demonic lusts.
I always felt that while Liam and Angelus might be seperate entities, Angel is not--he's a complete synthesis of the two (as visually shown in "Orpheus" when the spell works), a third being who possesses everything the other two had at the same time, and is responsible for the actions of both.
A Frankenstein monster of the soul.
I thought the whole point of the diner feeding scene in "Orpheus" was to dispel Faith's notion that Angelus is simply locked away in Angel--it's not that cut and dry.
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Thanks, that makes a lot of sense -- Masq, 07:16:09 03/21/03 Fri
I admit I had kind of a knee-jerk reaction to the attempts of almost everyone--Fred, Wesley, Faith, etc--trying to give Angel a "get out of jail free" card by assuming he has no responsibility for what Angelus does.
They may continue to act this way in episodes to come, they may not. That doesn't change the fact that, on most metaphysical interpretations of the vampire demon, Angel has some responsibility, direct or indirect, for Angelus' behavior.
I just prefer that Angel be telling true when he talks about the things Angelus did as the things "I" did. It makes the story more compelling, I think.
Willow (spoilers of Orpheus) -- Alison, 13:59:27 03/20/03 Thu
Was it just me, or was the "Willow speak" on Angel a little forced? I realize Mere Smith doesn't write her, and must have tried, but there was a willowism in every line she spoke! She's not all fluffy goofiness.
other than that though, pretty happy with the episode...I had a goofy grin on my face once it was done. I didn't realize how much I had missed Angel!
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matching mole mentioned this in Belladonna's thread below. -- Sophist, 14:50:40 03/20/03 Thu
I agree. My daughter found it so disconcerting she stopped watching.
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Re: matching mole mentioned this in Belladonna's thread below. -- Alison, 14:55:36 03/20/03 Thu
sorry..reading the whole board takes a while...and I just HAD to say it!
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Re: matching mole mentioned this in Belladonna's thread below. -- matching mole, 10:02:31 03/21/03 Fri
No problem - I was surprised that more people hadn't commented on it. And now, for some reason, the bottom of Belladonna's thread with my comment (which was really just the tag end of another post) and Sophist's response has mysteriously vanished. Computers are most peculiar things.
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Re: Willow (spoilers of Orpheus) -- Slayrunt, 22:01:17 03/20/03 Thu
Angel-Smangel, give me all Angelus, all the time.
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I think we had problems with dialogue and delivery. -- cjl, 08:32:55 03/21/03 Fri
For instance, I thought the first scene with Willow, her appearance at the Hyperion and introduction to some of the newer characters, had some of AH's most peculiar line readings ever. Mere Smith had Willow's rhythms down fairly well, but AH bulldozed through these lines as if she were SMG. The traditional Willow babblespeak was written in, but Alyson didn't deliver it.
Mere doesn't get off that easy, though. Yes, AH rushed her dialogue in that scene, but even if Alyson were at the top of her game, Willow would have sounded strange when she called Connor "androgynous" to his face. (Very OOC for Will to make that personal a comment to someone she's just met.) But the line that really stuck out for me was when Dream!Faith lorded it over Angelus after he fell for her "ruse." Since when does Faith use the word "ruse"? Eliza sounded like she barely knew how to form the word.
That said, I did like Willow's scene with Wesley. Maybe acting with Alexis gave Alyson a comfort zone, because she lost the manic energy, and it helped--the characters interacted beautifully.
contract allowances and inter-network guest spots ('Orpheus spoilers and also for Buffy 7.22) -- Jenny's Love, 15:12:30 03/20/03 Thu
I would like to know how Joss persuaded the networks to allow AH to return to the WB in "Orpheus" and DB to be on Buffy in the series finale. Did he have to bribe them, beg and plead, stating that the fans would riot if DB and SMG were not reunited before "Buffy" bit the dust, etc., etc.???)
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The imminent end of BtVS may have eased the tension between UPN and the WB. -- cjl, 08:03:16 03/21/03 Fri
The way the WB sees it, Buffy has five more episodes to go, then disappears into the night, never to suck the life out of their precious 18-49 demographic again. By giving Joss some leeway for crossovers, the WB sends out an olive branch to Joss, just in case they want to bring back ANGEL for S5 and (dare I hope) S6. Sending Angel back to Sunnydale for the finale might also draw "Buffy-only" fans who haven't seen the big guy for awhile back to L.A. if ANGEL is the only Whedon show on the boards for 2003-4.
So, it's a win-win-win situation:
A win for Joss, the WB and UPN.
If only the networks had come to their senses earlier.
Wesley Saved (spoilers Orpheus) -- Just George, 15:14:09 03/20/03 Thu
My favorite exchange in Orpheus is between Wesley and Willow. It had me on the floor.
Wes: "Sorry. I think my sense of humor is trapped in a jar somewhere."
Wil: "It does seem like you've given in to the grumpy side of the force."
Wes; "A lots happened. Not just Angelus. I've been... I've changed. I've seen a darkness in myself. I'm not sure you'd even begin to understand."
Wil: "I flayed a guy alive and tried to destroy the world."
Wes: "Oh. So."
Wil: "Darkness. Been there."
Wes: "Yeah. Well... I never flayed. I had a women chained in a closet."
Wil: "Oh. Well. Hey."
Wes: "No. It doesn't compare."
Wil: "No. Dark. That's dark. You've been to a place."
Wes: "You seem exactly the same as when I left. No other changes I'm not up on."
Wil: "Just little things."
It may seem like a throw away funny scene. But I expect the humor is designed to puncture Wesley's tendency to wallow in darkness. He uses his "dark" image as a crutch so that he doesn't have to connect to the others at AI. But I think Willow showed Wesley that his darkness didn't have define him.
I think you could see the turning point for Wesley near the end of the episode. Gunn pokes at Wesley with, "Sit back and let the girl do all the heavy lifting." Wesley responds with a smile, "That's pretty much it." If Wesley can smile at Gunn's jibes, then the two of them can work together again. They may even be able to resume their friendship.
-JG
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Re: Wesley Saved (spoilers Orpheus) -- JM, 21:10:10 03/20/03 Thu
I think Wesley has probably wanted to say just those things he said to Willow for a long time, maybe since "Billy." But for any number of reasons there are things that you can tell a virtual stranger that you can't confess to those you love. He still has a journey up from pain and darkness to make though, I think.
Attention TCH: Very OT: Dreaming in Pictures: The photographs of Lewis Carroll -- Arethusa, 07:51:14 03/21/03 Fri
Maybe someone can help bring this around to AtS, since the Pylea arc was a Through The Looking Glass experience.
This traveling exhibit in currently in Houston's Museum of Fine Arts and includes a couple dozen of his photos, some first editions, and several virtual albums that Carroll used as portfolios to sell his services as photographer. The exhibit states he possibly started taking pictures to make a little extra money off of his photography hobby.
The photos can be thought of as falling in three catagories: portraits and museum artifacts, probably taken for money or as a favor, tableau vivant ("living pictures") and costumed children, and studies of children.
The portraits etc. include photos of Tennyson (love the floppy hat), Millais and his wife and children, and the famous Victorian acting family the Terrys. Also are Alexander Munro's sculptures (very lovely) and skeletons from a natural history museum. Carroll used natural life beautifully, especially in misty photos of Oxford's Christ Church.
I've read that tableau vivant was very popular in Victorian times. People dressed up as famous historical and mythical figures, and the audience of friends and family had to guess the scene and/or personality. They were often quite elaborate. One photo is of the famous Alice Liddell as The Beggar Maid. She's rather pretty, with shoulder-legnth dark hair, large eyes, and a round face. Julia Arnold, neice of Matthew Arnold and future mother of Aldous Huxley, is "Little Vanity" and the Rev. Kitchin's (?) children play "St. George and the Dragon," one of my favorite photos. (The Dragon appears to be one of the children wrapped in an animal skin.)
To me, the most interesting are the studies of children. The dominant themes of these photos are "sleeping, dreaming, reverie and insommnia," according to the exhibit, and emphesize the Victorian ideas of children as innocence personified. Most of the children are reclining in sofa, chairs or beds, and sometimes barefoot. "The sleeping and waking children are juxtaposed." Their faces are grave and contemplative, even a little sad perhaps, although the style of photos and long exposure time of photographic plates of the time usually meant that the subjects don't smile. I wonder what Carroll was trying to say about the dream state, and imagination. (Which means I'll have to read Alice and Looking Glass again!) He seems to be very interested in the blurry gray area between sleeping and waking, when the mind is still somewhat self-aware but the imagination is free to roam.
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Interesting -- Tchaikovsky, 08:09:22 03/21/03 Fri
Dodgson was obviously a very mutli-talented man. Of course, he was a maths don, and his writing is now world-renowned, but it seems like his photos were more than a little hobby as well. He was obviously fascinated by the state of childhood- I wonder whether he subscribed completely to the Victorian idea that children were the embodiment of innocence- or whether he had other different thoughts.
Interesting that so many of the people he photographed were related to famous people. I suppose Oxford has always been an attraction for intellectually gifted people, but it may also have something to do with these people being more willing to pay him some money for his offerings!
Can't think of a way to arc back on to topic just now, but someone else probably will. Thanks for sharing anyway.
TCH
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Re: Interesting -- Arethusa, 08:33:34 03/21/03 Fri
The exhibit said he became an established member of Victorian cultural society. Most of the children he photgraphed were the daughters of friends. The virtual albums had quite a few pictures of relatives and a few of some schoolboys-possibly students of his? The boys looked positively Dickensian, with their little suits, floppy ties and slightly sullen expressions.
I don't know about innocence. Teaching young boys, he should have been thoroughly disilusioned about the innoncence of children! Maybe that's why he preferred to photograph girls-a well-bred Victorian little girl could better fit the ideal.
Hey! The board is back!! And... and... it's *working*!!! -- OnM, 06:13:28 03/22/03 Sat
In fact, I went and looked outside the door to see if the world was still here and all, 'cos last night there was no board to be found, and this morning it's loading/accessing far faster than it ever has.
This has to be a fluke, but I'm still holding out hope.
;-)
Let's get posting, folks!
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Ding Dong the wicked Voynak's dead! -- cougar, 06:28:52 03/22/03 Sat
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Let's hope that one moment of true happiness here won't bring it back! -- CW, 06:51:34 03/22/03 Sat
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Never forget... the Voynak demon has nine lives! -- Masq, 08:40:30 03/22/03 Sat
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Boy, I sure picked a good week to be off-line! LOL. -- Rob, enjoying the last hours of his spring break immensely, 09:23:17 03/22/03 Sat
Although I'm on vacation in Arizona, this week, now and then, I've been lurking when I could catch an off-chance to get to a computer (like right now!)...and what with part of "Angel" being pre-empted and the overall wonkiness and temporary non-existence of the board, I feel a lot better about my week away!
Just for the record, I'm still away. But I'll be home tomorrow morning at 5 am. Yawn! Had a great time, but I really can't wait to be back at the board full time. I've missed you guys!
Rob
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Re: Boy, I sure picked a good week to be off-line! LOL. -- aliera, 10:10:41 03/22/03 Sat
We missed you too Rob...hope you have a good trip home.
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And he thought it was gonna be dances and songs... -- cougar, 14:17:19 03/22/03 Sat
Thought on 'Mother's Milk is Red Today' from 'Conversations with Dead People' -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:46:39 03/22/03 Sat
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before or not, so here goes:
There's a folktale I once read called "Wiley and the Hairy Man". It centered around a boy of undetermined age named Wiley who keeps going out to chop wood in the forest, even though it is the home of the Hairy Man (a very clear devil substitute) who likes to stuff people into his sack and take them away. Wiley's mother tries to keep him safe by setting out a jar of milk every day. If the Hairy Man comes near Wiley, the milk turns red, like blood. This is a sign to the mother to unleash her dogs, which scare off the Hairy Man.
When the demon/spirit/thing Dawn fought with in CwDP caused blood on the wall to read "Mother's Milk is Read Today", perhaps it was a reference to "Wiley and the Hairy Man". His mother's milk turning red was a sign that the Hairy Man/The Devil was coming after Wiley. So, perhaps MMiRT simply refers to the Hairy Man/The Devil/The First Evil being near.
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This is cool! -- HonorH, 11:17:06 03/22/03 Sat
And the fact that the milk is red is a signal to Joyce that she somehow needs to protect her daughters--get through to them by any means necessary. Great possibility, Finn! You'll do well at OBAFU.
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