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Evil Woman: figuring out Cordelia without a road map (no spoilers in particular) -- Masq, 11:58:50 03/18/03 Tue

I had this thought the other night. Maybe we aren't getting shooting scripts for Angel this year because they contain stage directions for the actors and directors that would give away future plot points to fans that read them. Spoiler trollops, your mission, should you decide to accept it, is FIND THOSE SCRIPTS!

Short of that, we can only speculate based on the available evidence: spoilers, which I don't read, and what we see on-screen.

With that in mind, I was going to write this lengthy coherent narrative attempting to figure out the Mystery of Cordelia where I point out all the evidence for and against the various theories and try to come to some conclusion. I can't seem to do that, however, so I am just going to type up the notes I have for each episode and let you all have a crack at them.

And spoiler trollops, you are allowed to post cryptically tantalizing replies if you actually know the answer to any of this stuff.

First up: Deep Down, Ground State, and THAW
[> Deep Down/Ground State/THAW (well-known spoiler from Calvary mentioned) -- Masq, 12:01:34 03/18/03 Tue

I'm going to start out with the assumption that the Cordy in misty glowly land is the real Cordelia. Is the dimension she is in the dimension of the Powers that Be? Why do I think it isn't? Cordelia clearly doesn't want to be there. If she were were actually doing any good there, wouldn't she be a little more motivated to stay? You know, at least ambivalent about it?

But she's not. She seems to be more of a prisoner than anything else (albeit more bored than scared). She can see what her friends are up to on Earth, and she is only slightly less than impotent to do anything about it. She also believes that Angel could find her there if he was motivated enough, and save her like he saved Fred from Pylea.

And Angel does find Cordelia--well, he sees her through the Axis of Pythia, an ancient relic he was told about by the untrustworthy Dinza. But he doesn't see her being bored and unhappy. He just sees "higher being" Cordelia--peaceful, angelic, clearly in a better place where she is "doing some good".

Who knows if he sees the real Cordelia through the axis or not? And who knows whether it is the "real" Cordelia who shows up in the Hyperion at the end of "The House always wins"? I will assume that the Cordelia standing in the lobby is "the thing" that will become Evil!Cordelia.

Idle thought: if it wasn't at least the body of the real Cordelia, wouldn't Angel be able to smell the difference?
[> Slouching Towards Bethlehem (same vague mention of spoilery stuff re: Calvary) -- Masq, 12:02:56 03/18/03 Tue

"Cordelia"'s memory loss, I think, is very real.

This presents two possibilities, in my mind:

(1) This is a "clone" Cordelia who has none of Cordelia's memories and needs to be supplied with them so she can pass better as Cordelia.

(2) This is the real Cordelia and her memories have been removed so that she can be manipulated by some outside source. Then, when her memories are returned, she can be re-programmed a bit in the process.

If this isn't the real Cordelia, however, some things seem quite odd. She doesn't have Cordelia's memories, and yet she does seem to have other very Cordelia-esque things that she displays even when she's alone (i.e., just Cordelia and the camera):

(1) She has Cordelia's moral sensibilities: noticing a knife fragment on the floor and thinking it's creepy; being frightened when she overhears Fred and Gunn talking about killing demon babies.

(2) She has Cordelia's personality ("Popular. No real surprise there")

(3) She has Cordelia's fighting skills (fights off the ninja lawyers before she even knows she can fight).

When Lorne reads her, it's fair to say he's seeing something that is in her already, something malevolent, but not quite "all there" yet--something that is to come, inherent in Cordelia.

OK, on to Cordelia's actions in this episode. She seems like someone who has lost their memory and is genuinely frightened by the weirdness around her. And yet, we know from future episodes that Cordelia is going to come between Connor and Angel in a big way. And in this episode, she is being positioned to begin that.

There's a monster in the hotel, and Angel turns out to be a "Mr. Bumpy Face" himself and everyone is acting weird. So along comes this kid who saves her from the monster and offers to take her away from the hotel. Cordelia doesn't have a lot of options given her memory loss and all, so she takes him up on it. That doesn't seem too weird.

But there is one thing I noticed. Cordelia actually seems pretty self-confident and snarky while at the Hyperion--she talks back to all of them, challenges them--until she gets to Connor's. It is only then she acts truly scared. And depressed. She tells Connor she trusts him and isn't even sure why. She is the damsel in distress like she wasn't for Angel. It draws Connor in, makes him protective. Protecting her from what? Why, the goings-on at the "unsafe" Hyperion.

This is significant because at the beginning of "Slouching", Connor sneaks into the hotel after saving a family from vampires. It seems as if, after two episodes away from his father, he is trying to re-enter his Angel's life, re-connect. But then he comes across Cordelia, and is instantly supplied with a reason to be at odds with his father again.

Connor's apartment is none too safe, either, as a black-ops attack from W&H proves, and yet Cordelia tells Angel she'd rather be with Connor. Now maybe that can all be explained by the fact that Connor was honest with her and Angel and Co. weren't, but in retrospect, I think more is going on here. Cordelia is being positioned where she can manipulate Connor when the time comes. She seems to be manipulating him already--she is now "his responsibility", he must take care of her, she trusts him over Angel, she choses him over Angel. For the moment.

And yet it is hard to believe that Cordelia is doing any of this deliberately. All her emotions seem genuine.

I leave you, and the notes for this episode, with an interesting quote by Gunn (trying to be reassuring when Cordelia choses to stay with Connor instead of Angel):

"Well, just remember, man, it's not really Cordy. Well, not all of her."

"Supersymmetry" is next...
[> Supersymmetry (same re: vague Calvary spoilers here) -- Masq, 12:06:50 03/18/03 Tue

I'm going to step out on a limb and say that I don't think that whatever is controlling/passing as Cordelia set out to seduce Connor from the outset. I do think that when "Cordelia" realized Connor's interest, she/someone/whomever then decided to use Connor's sexual interest to manipulate him.

It's hard to know, though, when she/it/whomever made this decision. Cordelia kisses Connor after she slays a vampire. He returns the kiss. Later, he puts the moves on her again. She sits him down and tells him she's not comfortable relating to him that way, and then tells him she's going back to Angel's. Now that could just be the real Cordelia handling an awkward situation in the best way she knows how.

Or it may be part of a scheme of manipulation that has been underway since Cordelia left the Hyperion with Connor in "Slouching". She sees Connor's interest and immediately says she's returning to Angel. Angel got upset when Cordelia chose to stay at Connor's. Now it's Connor's turn to be upset because Cordelia is going back to Angel's.

I mean, look at it from this point of view: Cordelia may not know what she's doing, but what she appears to be doing is setting up these two supernatural heroes to be distracted big-time when the apocalypse gets here, and in a way that will keep them from re-bonding, not only as father and son, but as allies in the fight.
[> [> No Shooting Scripts but the link to the Wildfeed for Orpheus is up at the Trollop board.....;) -- Rufus, 13:50:13 03/18/03 Tue

[> sounds great! .. bad pun inside -- neaux, 12:08:15 03/18/03 Tue

Honestly this is a great idea Masq. I cant wait to read this and reanalyze Cordelia's mannerisms/motions from past episodes.

Now for the joke.

How do you figure out Cordelia without a roadmap? Watch out for those 2 big curves!!

Bwhahaaahahaaaaa.
[> [> At this point, neaux -- Masq, 12:53:42 03/18/03 Tue

The Cordelia road has a LOT of curves. Big ones. Did you mean any two in particular?? ; )P
[> [> [> Re: At this point, neaux -- LittleBit, 17:56:16 03/19/03 Wed

So when are The Twins going to get their own screen credit?
[> Spin the bottle (OK, you know what Calvary spoiler I mean) -- Masq, 12:27:05 03/18/03 Tue

Almost immediately upon her return to Angel's, Cordelia asks him if they were in love. Is she now manipulating the feelings of the father like she (maybe) did the son? Well... I don't know.

In itself, "Were we in love?" is not a weird question to ask. There were subtle hints in "Slouching" that would lead an amnesiac girl to wonder: The intimate way Angel reacted to her, their almost-kiss. The pictures she saw that seemed to imply a close family-like relationship. And Connor's very jealous reaction when she said she was returning to Angel's.

Another point I noticed: once again, Cordelia's demeanor changes back into brash and challenging. She's gentle with Connor, the student to his trainer, the damsel to his protector. Not so with Angel. With Angel, she's Cordelia, albeit a Cordelia without a memory. Is this play-acting? Is this genuine? Who can tell without a shooting script??

From the audience's point of view, she might as well be "our Cordy" with no memory. And yet, we know that by "Calvary" she is not simply our Cordelia, if she's our Cordelia at all (hell, I think by Apocalypse Nowish she isn't. Certainly by Long Day's Journey she's Eeevil). So is all of this an act now? Is it mostly an act, just with no memory? Or is it just "our Cordy" with no memory?

The one thing we can say is that there is a spell in Spin the Bottle, and "Cordelia" is the intended recipient of its magic, and after that, she seems to have her memory back. So let's look at this spell.

"My first reading since my head got drilled, and I find a spell that's gonna bring our little Cordy right back to us." --Lorne, Spin the Bottle

When this episode first came out, there was a question about what time frame stage-singing Lorne was relative to the events in the Hyperion. He talked about the events of "Spin" in the past tense. But how far in the future was he?

In the episode, Lorne comes to Cordelia and Angel with a memory spell "guaranteed" to "bring Cordelia back to them". Odd language: is she missing, Lorne? She's standing right there. Why not say, "guaranteed to give Cordelia back her memory." Makes me wonder if ME is giving us hints or something.

Anyway, Lorne got the spell while reading a client who deals in memory spells professionally. So who was this "client" of Lorne's who provided this spell? Was she hired by the bad guys to go to Lorne for a "reading"? Hmmm. You'd think if someone had placed that spell in Lorne's path deliberately, he would have sensed their malevolent intentions. But just because he didn't sense anything, doesn't mean it wasn't planted.

Stage-Lorne (future Lorne) says, "I had every reason to think the spell would work. And it did. After a fashion. But what happened during it... and what came after... ooh. I'm gonna need a bigger drink."

Angel is wary of using a spell, but Cordelia's all for it. Not suspicious in itself.

OK, so they do the spell. Those present and influenced by the spell are Cordelia, Angel, Lorne, Wesley, Fred, and Gunn. Connor is not present during the spell itself. Not sure what this means, if anything.

The spell starts. The bottle spins and vapor from inside it enters each of the six. They get all dopey. Then the spell is interupted mid-way through when Cordelia smashes the bottle. Is there any possibility that this is the real Cordelia and she smashes the bottle because she realizes something is coming into her that she doesn't want there? Not just forgotten memories, but a presence? Maybe we're not supposed to suspect that because the others get the mist as well. But Cordelia is the proper "target" of the spell.

At any rate, Lorne returns them all to normal by giving them the remaining dose of the contents of the bottle. Cordelia is the last one to receive it. Lorne feeds her the potion, and she becomes disoriented. She closes her eyes. When she opens them again, she has a vision of the Beast (as we see from her point of view) and runs away. When Fred gets her taste, she doesn't get disoriented, she just gets kinda squicky like she's tasting something sour.

Now I have speculated on my site that if this is NOT the real Cordelia, then perhaps the Evil Being inside of her needed the memory spell in order to get access to Cordelia's memories so it could pass as Cordy. But what if this IS the real Cordelia? What if up until this moment, she was the real Cordelia possessed by NO ONE (and therefore not manipulating Angel or Connor, at least not to any evil purpose)? In that case, this spell might have been used in order to get the Evil Being inside her in the first place. At this point, she became Evil!Cordelia.

It makes some sense, given the large number of suspicious things that happen in Apocalypse Nowish.
[> [> Masq, that is an absolutely lovely euphemism in your last line ;-) -- KdS, 12:37:19 03/18/03 Tue

[> [> I wonder if Cordy knows -- Scroll, 13:11:17 03/18/03 Tue

I wonder if Cordelia is somehow aware that she's being controlled or possessed by this external force. When Lorne dropped that memory-mush on her tongue and she saw the Beast, is it possible she also remembered her purpose for being sent back to Earth? Perhaps Cordelia knows that her place in the apocalypse is to be "Evil" and it saddens her. I'm thinking in particular of her very regretful and sorrowful tone when Angel asks her, "Were we in love?" and she replies, "We were." Why the past tense? Did they somehow stop loving each other while under the ocean or in floaty-ville? Don't they love each other anymore?

Or is Cordelia already manipulating Angel by deliberately giving and taking away her love? In one instant, she tells him that love is a possibility between them, but also that this possibility is already dead. Gone. In the past.

Now I have speculated on my site that if this is NOT the real Cordelia, then perhaps the Evil Being inside of her needed the memory spell in order to get access to Cordelia's memories so it could pass as Cordy. But what if this IS the real Cordelia? What if up until this moment, she was the real Cordelia possessed by NO ONE (and therefore not manipulating Angel or Connor, at least not to any evil purpose)? In that case, this spell might have been used in order to get the Evil Being inside her in the first place. At this point, she became Evil!Cordelia.

I think I mostly agree that the memory spell was key to the Evil Being gaining total control over Cordelia, but that doesn't really explain her manipulation of Connor (the kiss, then the brush-off) that came before she regained her memory. At least, I interpreted the kiss as manipulation in light of what happens in "Apoc, Nowish".

Keep going, Masq. I'm looking forward to your take on "Apoc, Nowish" and "Calvary".
[> Great minds think alike -- lunasea, 12:35:50 03/18/03 Tue

I was thinking the same thing about the scripts earlier last week. I REALLY want/need to see the script for "Awakening." It is frustrating. I am learning to relish being frustrated. The more frustrated I get, the more I know ME is cooking something up.

I would also love to see the stage directions for Angelus. I'm really getting tired of the criticisms.

But the less I can see, the more I know that it would ruin things.

Tomorrow is going to be worth it though. What an incredible and imaginative way to go. And David's most recent interview (I can't pass up an DB interview). Tomorrow will have me speculating for weeks. I like that. I also like being right. I will refrain from any dancing and just continue the bouncing and squealing that periodically erupts from me.
[> Apocalypse Nowish (spoilers re: Calvary revelation and Salvage) -- Masq, 13:31:47 03/18/03 Tue

One of the first things we're treated to in this episode is Cordelia's mutant pod mushroom dream. She's asleep in Connor's bed dreaming that she's awake on Connor's bed watching "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" on TV. Subtle much? Not really, but it's difficult to know exactly what conclusion to draw from that.

Anyway, what's significant about this dream is that it seems like a dream real that real Cordelia would have, not Evil!Cordelia. The dream shows visions of the Beast and expresses fears about what is to come. So perhaps this is the real Cordelia, and what is evil inside of her is still below the surface, "deep down, clawing its way to the top."

Except things immediately start getting suspicious.

The yanking of the boy-chains continues full-force. At the end of Spin the Bottle, Cordelia tells Angel that they were, indeed "in love". Then she turns around in this episode and tells him "I love you, but we can't be together right now" because she is dealing with his past as Angelus, which she claims to seen in sense-around while in the higher dimension. Angel feels appropriately guilty.

The next thing to note is that this episode marks the first time we see one of Cordelia's "white-eyed" visions. This vision happens BEFORE she runs into the Beast and before she sleeps with Connor. In the vision, which we see from her point of view, the Beast's horns break through the pavement.

Later, Cordelia decides to head out and "find where the Beast will rise". She seems ready to do this on her own. Then Connor shows up and talks her into letting him go along. She resists him a little, which kind of makes you wonder if she was heading out to greet her minion. But it doesn't take much for her to relent to Connor's company, which makes you wonder if she planned to invite him all along.

Cordelia wanders down to the alley behind Caritas, where Darla died. The Beast rises in the exact spot where Connor was born. The Beast threatens Cordelia. Connor tells him to stop, and miraculously, he stops.

When this episode first aired, we all wondered why the Beast didn't kill her and Connor. The answer to that one is now easy. You don't kill your boss. Or the woman who will shortly be your boss. And you don't kill the boy she is going to try to turn into another one of her minions.

Now it's possible that this is our real Cordelia, and that she has an evil presence inside of her that has not yet taken over completely. Instead, she is being influence by the evil presence. Maybe the fact that Connor turns into the Beast in her dream was a subliminal message to drag Connor out to the alley and manipulate him into thinking he was connected to the Beast. Who knows?

Anyway, manipulated he is. Connor's already teetering self-image is tormented by the idea that the Beast rose where he was born. He wonders if he was created for an evil purpose, one related to the Beast. Connor's angst for the next gazillion episodes on this question convinces me all the more that Connor was, in fact, created by some force for Good, created to help stop this apocalypse, and that Evil is trying very hard to convince him otherwise. More on that later.

So the Beast starts his rain of fire, and Cordelia makes her move. As pointless and cowardly and counter-productive as these sexcapades seemed to us at the time, sleeping with Connor serves the triple purposes of (1) keeping Connor out of the Beast's way, (2) manipulating Connor sexually (and more to the point, emotionally), and (3) giving Angel an eye-ful to further divide father and son. It may be my father-son shippyness, but I think that Angel would have reached out and brought Connor back into the fold by this point if he hadn't had to deal with his own jealousy.

The blatant playing of Angel and Connor against each other also makes you suspect that the key to bringing down Evil!Cordelia is for Angel and Connor to cooperate with each other, to get along with each other. From moment one she has been doing the "divide and conquer" thing, either deliberately or unconsciously. So instead of working together to fight the apocalypse, father and son have instead been having a pissing contest over a woman.

In retrospect, the Beast should have said to Angel, "Do you really think he's safe... with her?"

Despite everything that happens in this ep, it's still hard to tell at this point if Cordelia is completely evil or just coming and going. If she's completely evil, she's playing everyone else, including the audience, like a banjo. My suspicion is that she is gradually becoming Evil!Cordelia, gradually being taken over by this entity, who either entered her through the Spin-the-Bottle spell or got the upper hand that way.
[> Cordy...Pretty soon you won't think 'Who is she' but 'Where is she'....;) -- Rufus, 13:55:08 03/18/03 Tue

[> [> OK, so what you're saying is... -- Masq, 14:24:37 03/18/03 Tue

All this cerebral hair-pulling is pointless because the real Cordelia is still up in glowy land?

And Evil!Clone Cordelia has been on Earth all this time, practicing staying in character to the non-existent camera.

What an actress!
[> [> [> Masq....in the right light you look kinda like a Trollop in Training...;) -- Rufus, 00:01:19 03/19/03 Wed

Won't say anything about Cordy...but will say that things are going to get fun for Connor soon. Cordy will say something to pay attention to on Orpheus...all you have to do is wait a couple of weeks to see what pops out.
[> [> [> [> Fun, yeah! or Fun, ugh! ??? -- Masq, 05:29:35 03/19/03 Wed

Let me guess...the latter.

Doesn't take spoilers, or many brain cells, to see that Connor is being squinched in a vice-grip. I mean, think about this boy. He never even met a woman until he was 17 years old. In fact, the only other human being he knew for that entire length of time was Daniel Holtz, who was some weird English combination of vicious and prissy.

Most of the things he encounters every day are new to him--people, technology, ideas.

Imagine the naivete of this boy. It doesn't take a big honkin' evil to manipulate him. Just a normal everyday person, really. One thanks God he has super-powers.

Except that really makes him loaded gun in the hands of a five-year old.

Oh, and Cactus Watcher, if you're reading these posts, I changed my mind. I think Cordelia is manipulating Connor with the anti-demon spell in the Hyperion. Doesn't mean he's not a little demonic, but all she's done is manipulate him. It's consistent to think she's doing it here, too.
[> [> [> [> [> And now... -- CW, 06:16:54 03/19/03 Wed

Rufus is probably chuckling under her breath at both of us. I think your current thoughts about Cordy-Connor make about as much sense anything, in analyzing this very confused season.

I'm going to be out tonight. It's extremely selfish of me, but I hope my VCR works and I hope it all doesn't get preempted, by that real world matter, that's also on all our minds. Suddenly, AtS seems a lot less ambiguous than real life.
[> [> [> [> 'See what pops out'? -- HonorH, 07:15:58 03/19/03 Wed

You realize what a horrible double entendre you just made about the PREGNANT WOMAN, don't you?

Speaking of which, I just got the juiciest spoiler from a TV Guide blurb, of all places. Go to BuffyGuide.com if you want to see it. It's juuuust what I've always wanted!
[> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I do...... -- Rufus, 03:08:20 03/20/03 Thu

Who is trying not to spoil anyone in an obvious way....:):):)

And, you are talking to a Trollop....seen the TV guide...you may want to remember the fact that in season five a mortal was used as a vessel for a god.....wonder what that could mean in both Angel and Buffy?
[> [> [> [> So Rufus, was that line (Orpheus spoilers) -- Masq, 12:00:49 03/20/03 Thu

As she's struggling with Willow and losing, "If only it were a couple weeks from now!"

(When I assume she is due...)

And can you give me some explanation about why Evil!Cordelia is so cheezy and a cartoon villian? That "fake voice" of hers is so over the top, ME has to be doing it on purpose. And Evil!Cordelia herself might as well be twiddling her mustache and saying "Mwah ha ha!" a lot, she is so... I don't know, cartoonish. Is this just bad acting, bad writing, or something deliberate?
[> [> I have a question -- lunasea, 17:36:56 03/18/03 Tue

Will the date/time stamp on "Conversations with Dead People" play into the Cordelius story line?
[> [> [> Re: I have a question -- Rufus, 03:38:31 03/20/03 Thu

You will have to be a bit more clear on what you mean...there is a parallel situation going on in both shows that ends with the series finale of Buffy.
[> [> [> [> Re: I have a question (spoiler = Orpheus) -- lunasea, 10:49:39 03/21/03 Fri

CwDP is the only episode that has the date and time at the beginning of the episode. That is signficant for something. I would say it is to link the episode to something, to say that when this happened it caused X or Y happened at the same time.

At first, since Xander was missing from the episode, I thought we were going to get to see what he (and maybe Anya) was doing then. Now I think that at that particular date/time in the Buffyverse what happened in Sunnydale in CwDP (perhaps it was Buffy going back into the crypt/grave) triggers something in LA on AtS. Since the "big mystery" is Cordelius, did what happened in CwDP (or maybe the sacrifice of Jonathan), have something to do with her/it? It is around the time she gets her memory back. Perhaps what happened in CwDP let the First take corporal form (or possess someone) or maybe brought forth the Second. That floating head Cordelius manifested had a striking resemblance to the First.

Just wild speculation.
[> [> [> [> Really wacked out speculation (spoiler Sleeper & Release) -- lunasea, 11:10:03 03/21/03 Fri

Several things happened in CwDP. Spike is feeding again. We find out in Sleeper that he has REALLY been feeding that night. It only takes a night for vampires to rise. In "The Harvest" (back to the beginning) Luke becomes the Vessel for the Master and the Master can draw strength from Luke's feeding. Was something similar going on with Spike?

CwDP is close to Apocalpyse Nowish which contains that horrible scene. Perhaps Cordy (who is actually evil) drew on Spike's feeding as was able to conceive that demon spawn, that will allow the First to take Corporal form for whatever the final stage of Its plan is.

We have:
Jonathan's death and blood all over the seal, which seams to do little
Buffy's talk with Holden, which leaves her back in the crypt
Spike feeding
Dawn and "Joyce"
Willow and Cassie/the First.

I can't come up with anything for Dawn and Willow triggering anything. Blood is important and the mystical forces that Buffy is screwing up are what the First is taking advantage of.

Another spoiler question, we never did find out what Cordy's plans for Angelus were. How long do we have to wait to find this out? Did she want him to go to Sunnydale and take care of a certain Slayer perhaps? He did look disappointed that it was Faith that came after him. Finish torturing Angel's friends in LA and then head up to Sunnydale to vamp Angel's true love.
[> Habeas Corpses -- Masq, 14:22:11 03/18/03 Tue

There's a couple moments in this episode when I knew, or thought I knew, that we had the real Cordelia on our hands, and that she still had some control over her life.

The first is when she wakes up the next morning, sees Connor sleeping beside her, and gets that aghast look on her face. The only ones around to see it is us, the audience. Is Evil!Cordelia just trying to "stay in character" so she won't lapse in front of those she is trying to manipulate? Or is this our real Cordelia, of not-so-sound mind, realizing she did something really stupid the night before and unable to imagine why she did it?

At any rate, Connor wakes up and she tells him, "It can't happen again... You're Angel's son. It rained fire last night, never a good sign. And a giant demony-beast crawled out from the earth where you were born."

Now, if this was our Cordelia, fully in control of herself, it seems to me she'd say something like, "I was scared last night, Connor. I thought it was the end of the world. It can't happen again." Well, actually, if this was the real Cordelia fully in control of herself, she wouldn't have slept with Connor in the first place, but you get my drift.

Instead of being reassuring, Cordelia says things that (1) make Connor assume she is rejecting him because of his alleged "connection" to the Beast (making him further question his own innate goodness), and that (2) further drive a wedge between father and son.

Later, when Cordelia finds out Connor is trapped inside W&H during the Beast's rampage, she seems genuinely surprised. As real Cordelia would be: that's a dangerous thing for the Miracle Child to do.

But Evil!Cordelia would be surprised, too. Her manipulation of Connor doesn't give her total control over him. He isn't a robot. He still does what he does by choice (incredibly BAD choices, but consider how naïve he must be!). But surely an Evil!Cordelia knows the Beast wouldn't kill Connor. Even if he really, really wants to. The Beast seems to have some jealousy issues with his Master's other favorites. He doesn't hesitate to toss Connor around when he gets the opportunity. A lot.

Meanwhile, Cordelia goes back to the Hyperion and tells Angel that the Beast rose where Connor was born and that Connor suspects he might be connected to the Beast. Angel may not be ready to believe there's a real connection there yet, but by "Long Day's Journey", he's irritable enough at his son to pay lip service to a Connor-Beast connection.

At this point, Wesley arrives and tells them Connor is trapped in Wolfram and Hart with the Beast. Cordelia reassures Angel:

"Connor will be all right. He's a champion, like you. He's special."
Angel (skeptically): "Right. Like me. Special."

If Cordelia is manipulating Angel at this point, its aimed straight at his insecurites. It's like saying, "I'm rejecting you because you have Angelus inside of you, but hey, look, Connor's got everything you have without the evil demon."

Ouch. I suspect Angel's refusal to let Cordelia join them to save Connor from W&H is a good way to both (1) illustrate his anger at her for sleeping with Connor and (2) accomplish something for the writers: It keeps Cordelia out of the White Room. If little red girl Mesektet had seen her, what would she have said?

The episode ends with another one of those moments that seem pointless if Cordelia is fully free-range Evil!Cordelia at this point. Angel tells her to "take your new boyfriend and get out" of the hotel. Then he leaves the office. Cordelia is alone. Her eyes get wide and she whispers, "Oh God!" as if she is just now figuring out that Angel knows she slept with Connor. Was that shock and hurt for our benefit? Maybe it's the real Cordelia, still in possession of her mind. Or maybe it's Evil!Cordelia practicing staying in character again.
[> [> More coming as soon as I rewatch the eps -- Masq, 15:58:33 03/18/03 Tue

[> [> [> Re: More coming as soon as I rewatch the eps -- Katrina, 18:09:07 03/18/03 Tue

When you get to "Long Days Journey," what do you think about that scene where Cordelia has the memory of someone speaking to the Beast? I don't have the exact quote handy, but to quote the ATPOBTVS episode guide, "she is experiencing this from the point of view of whomever the Beast is talking to, and it is someone who feels 'familiar.' " I know the storyline has clearly identified the someone as Angelus. But the first time I saw this, when she was already acting more or less like a pod person, I couldn't help wondering if there wasn't a sense in which the someone who felt familiar was herself. She's describing her consciousness as being inside someone else's, which seems linkable to the possibility that there really was another consciousness inside herself, or that the real Cordelia is inside someone/something else. Much like the emphasis last week on Angelus being trapped in the box of Angel, which Cordelius taunted him with. Perhaps the situation with Cordelia and her--what? evil possessor?--has a similar dynamic to Angel and Angelus: Two consciousneses in one body, with one in control and the other submerged. Sorry if this has been brought up already; I can't keep up!
[> My educated guess... -- ZachsMind, 18:08:10 03/18/03 Tue

1) It's not Cordy.
Cordy's still in the gilded cage. The creature posing as Cordy just took her form. Remember in Vegas we saw Cordy up in the 'higher being' place reach out and help Angel, and we took it for granted that when she did that, the Powers That Be got pissed at her, stripped her of her memories, and tossed her back like a floppy fish. We never actually saw them do that though. One minute she's up in "heaven" shouting at Angel to get her outta there. The next minute she just happens to appear in the hotel. For all we know, Skip lied his arse off and talked Cordy into going with him, so he or whoever he worked for could get Cordy out of the way, and someone could slip in as The Master and get Angeles back.

2) Power corrupts.
When Cordy went up there and saw everything, saw what Angeles and Angel did, all the history of creation, she came up with a plan that may have noble catalysts but ultimately involves Cordy turning evil in order to accomplish something. Fighting fire with fire. If it is Cordy, she thinks she's doing the right thing, and from that lofty perch overlooking all reality, maybe it made sense. I remember once a friend of mine told me that he dropped acid and came up with the perfect way to take over the world. It seemed so simple when he was high. Then when he came down and tried to share his idea with friends, he realized just how insane and impossible it was. I happen to think he could have done it, but the cost would have been far too great. Cordy got high. Now she's ante-ing up with the Ferryman.

I'm gambling on the first one, that it's not really Cordy, but the second one is equally possible.
[> [> Re: Second hypothesis -- Kenny, 21:23:05 03/18/03 Tue

I have to admit, I've thought about your door #2. I don't like it, because Cordy had become so many good things by "Birthday", but like you say, it's a possibility. And considering the "good/evil within you" they've invested in Angel, Wesley, Fred, Connor, and Gunn, it makes sense that Cordy would be there too (kinda makes you wonder about Lorne, the only full demon, yet the seemingly kindest of the crowd).

It kind of parallels Evil!Willow (which I joked about elsewhere in this thread). But yeah, Cordy's been a manipulator since we met her on BtVS. We know what she's capable of. And if she thinks she's using it as a power for good (in some twisted way) like Willow ending the universe? Plausible.

It's probably just one of those things where you make a random connection, but as I read your post, I was listening to Nico's cover of Jackson Browne's "These Days". It was at the end where she delivered what, is to my mind, one of the saddest, most humble things ever written in the human language..."Please don't confront be with my failures, I have not forgotten them." I have no idea how many times I've listened to that song (with the caveat "since the Royal Tenenbaums came out"--if you haven't watched it yet, run right now and get it--you'll be a better person for it). Every time I here that lyric I want to cry--that's a statement that reaches to the very core of us. It's about as human as you can get.

And somehow, it seemed to fit with your idea that we're dealing with the real Cordy. She's grown more than any other character on BtVS/AtS. When we get to "Birthday" I don't see how she could do nothing but regret the person she was before BtVS season 2. Even Angel has the (small) comfort of knowing he was a soulless vampire. Cordelia came to realize to goodness and found out that she hadn't been good, even though she had the choice all along. Everyone in the Buffyverse has made mistakes, some deadly, but Cordy led a life of willful ignorance. In some ways, no one has more to make up for than she does.

And, if this is the real Cordy, now she has the power to do it. But because of her sense of elevation (which she's always had), her perception of how to right things is skewed. Willow didn't want to hurt anyone by destroying the world. She thought she was going to end all sufferring, in truly Willow fashion. And I love her for that. Yeah, her actions were truly screwed up, but all she wanted was for no one to hurt.

Now imagine that with Cordelia's personality. It probably wouldn't be that much different from what we're getting now.

There's one thing I want to note, and this seems like the most appropriate place to do it. I finally saw "Birthday" a few days ago (well, most of it anyway...a chunk is missing from www.slayerweb.de, but the most important parts are there, and I read the transcripts for the rest). The one thing that really struck me was, once she was a big star, getting the breast cancer awareness PSAs out was important to her. And that's one of the most pivotal lines for the character. It's easy to say that Angel saved her and she's the person she is because of that. But joining the Scoobies really changed her, and that seemed to be ME's way of saying that, even if she did manage to have a life outside of the supernatural, she had still be set on the path of being a good person, a champion.

And that makes the possibility of this being the real Cordy, only changed from her experience of being a higher being, more real and scarier. In that case, Wesley's story is a guidepost for Cordy's story, both a red herring and a harbinger. Which is somehow appropriate, because, if that's the case, I both anticipate and dread that story at the same time.
[> Re: Evil Woman: figuring out Cordelia without a road map (no spoilers in particular) -- Kenny, 18:27:32 03/18/03 Tue

Here's my theory...it's the same Cordelia from BtVS season 1. You see, once she figured out about the Slayer thing, she knew she'd never be the center of attention. So she joins the slayer gang, but it still doesn't work for her. Buffy's still top dog.

Then she gets to be the leading woman on Angel. And things are good, but she still doesn't get talked about as much as the other characters. Alright, get the visions. A little blip, but still not much. Become a demon. Hmm, more interest, more threads about her, but still not quite there. Become a higher power? That should do it. No, dammit, those people are way more obsessed about Evil!Willow! Wait, become evil, become evil! She's spent so much time trying to be good to get everyone's attention, she forgot why people liked her in the first place! And now she has her very own thread where people are dissecting her actions in every episode from this season. She's done it! It's diabolical! For you see, we're not dealing with Evil!Cordy here. It's something worse, far worse...

Meta!Cordelia has usurped our wills. And the world trembles.

Oh, Cordelia! How I want to feel ya!
[> Long Day's Journey -- Masq, 10:40:27 03/19/03 Wed

Some folks on the board have pointed out that I missed another possible theory, and that's that this is the real Cordy, and she's just evil. Either through her semi-demonness or her arrogance, or both, she's let herself go to the dark side. Hmmm. Darth Cordy. Seems we've seen this plot-o-rama somewhere recently. I didn't miss this theory on my website, it's there in my "Calvary" analysis, but I don't like it much. Unlike Darth-Willow, it would be a lot more difficult for ME to dig their way out of this one.

So--Long Day's Journey. When this episode first aired, there were people on the board who were already starting to post "Don't you find Cordy suspicious?" threads. I admit I was not one of those people. I have a tendency to look wherever ME points, rather than trying to read between the lines. It's part of what I do in my episode analyses--I try to stick to the apparent "facts", report on the text, not the sub-text, until it's revealed that not all is as it appears to be.

Hence the reason for this whole thread on Cordelia. The "facts" as they have been presented in these early episodes ARE not what they appear to be, and so I'm going back to old episodes, trying to find new facts.

But mostly, I look wherever ME points, so when they made Connor look connected to the Beast, I worried and fretted over how my Innocent Hero might have been inadvertently brought into this world for a nefarious purpose (heck, he still might be). When it seemed as if Angel might be responsible for the death of Manny or an accessory to his death, I hypothesized that he was a sleeper agent like Spike.

But now I think it's established that it was Cordelia who aided in the death of Manny.

When the episode opens, Cordelia (or something EVIL yanking Cordelia's strings) is deliberately keeping Connor away from the hotel. Don't want to risk any inadvertent father-son bonding after Angel proved he was willing to charge into Beast-infested Wolfram and Hart to save sonny-dearest. But of course, that's not the reason Cordelia tells Connor he can't go to the hotel. She has a good reason for keeping him away (she always has a good reason). Angel kicked them both out of the hotel. He's angry about them sleeping together.

Cordelia, however, does go over to the hotel by herself. She has work to do. She/It/whatever's controlling her (agh!) is now ready to start the Real Actual Nefarious Plan.

This is the episode where she has the "memories" of Angelus meeting the Beast. When Cordelia starts having the memories, they are shown to us via her point of view much the way her visions are always presented to us. They seem to pop in her head out of nowhere, and she gets a startled look on her face. We see the images, hear the sounds she is experiencing (no white eyes, this time).

The "memories" seem, for all intents and purposes, like something that is being beamed into Cordelia's head just like in the good old days, and that's a little odd if she is now fully Evil!Cordelia. Why would Evil!Cordelia be getting visions? So say she is the real Cordelia. I'd wager a year's salary that the Powers that Be aren't the ones sending her these "memories" as helpful information for defeating the Beast.

I mean, in "Release" Evil!Cordelia pretty much admits to setting up the whole chain of events that lead to the unleashing of Angelus, and Cordelia's "memories" of Angelus meeting the Beast are part of that chain. Let's look at the various chain-links in Long Day's Journey:

The Beast's job in this episode is to pull the toy surprises out of the five totems of Ra and do a ritual with them to block out the sun. He finds three of the five totems, but the other two are well-hidden. Luckily, Double-Agent Cordelia is strategically positioned at Angel Investigations, where Wesley's research helps her locate the remaining totems needed to block out the sun.

Cordeli's position also allows her (or with Cordelia's help, the Beast), to kill Manny. Cordelia is of course is the one on duty with Angel when Manny is killed. She knocks him out by putting something in his blood. Whether she did the Manny-slayage herself or her minion the Beast did, she points the finger at Angel and makes everyone think the Beast can manipulate Angel without his knowledge. Ooh, we all say, Angel is a sleeper agent for the Beast, like Spike was for the First! Well, some of us said that. And Wesley said something to that effect.

But Angel isn't a sleeper agent, for the Beast or for Evil!Cordelia. And Connor is another big red herring as well. The Beast seems to have a special fascination with Connor, but like the alley scene in Apocalypse Nowish, there's not too many cases where Connor seemed to have a connection to the Beast that can't be explained by Cordelia having a connection instead. Like when the Beast comes over to Connor's apartment to do his ritual. That's not just Connor's apartment, it's Cordelia's flop-house. Evil!Cordelia (if that's in fact who she is yet) is very good at deflecting attention away from herself.

Between Habeas Corpses and well into "Soulless" Connor still thinks that others are judging him because of his alleged connection to the Beast. This is probably all due to Cordelia's connection to the Beast, not Connor's or Angel's. In fact, the two men probably have no connection with the Beast whatsoever. Every alleged connection has been created by Cordelia.

So the Beast tosses Connor around and then out the window and starts the ritual to block out the sun. The gang arrives and tries to stop the Beast. Cordelia stays away from that action. There's a wounded Connor to look after, and she doesn't even want to pretend she's trying to stop the Beast. After the gang fails to stop the Beast's ritual and the sun disappears, they go downstairs where Connor and Cordelia are waiting.

And that's when Cordelia lays a whammy on Angel--she has already told him she is having visions of the Beast. Now, she informs him, she "realizes" they are memories. Angelus' memories. He ran into the Beast back in the powdered-wig days in a field of massacred bodies.

Angel protests that he doesn't remember this. Wesley speculates that that Angelus might still have this memory. He suggests they ask Angelus directly.

Now, in line with my statement above that Angel might have no connection to the Beast whatsoever, I'm going to venture that perhaps these "memories" are fakes. That in fact, Angelus never met the Beast in 1789 or ever, and that shortly after Angel's soul was removed in "Awakening", Evil!Cordelia put this fake memory in Angelus' head to report to Wesley in "Soulless".

I would so love to believe this memory was planted in Angelus once the soul was gone, because the metaphysics of trying to explain why Angelus would remember something that had been wiped from Angel's memory has been giving me a migraine ever since "Calvary". Ask Rufus, she knows what I mean.

So here's the Big Evil's nefarious recipe to bring back Angelus: create a situation in which the Angel Investigations team is desperate enough to do it themselves. Ingredients:

(1) Bring on a big apocalyptic Beast. Massacre, massacre, massacre.
(2) disappear the sun, creating hell on Earth (OK, just L.A. for now)
(3) Remove all information about the Beast from books (and maybe memories) and records so the gang is desperate for information about how to defeat him.
(4) Tell Angel he met the Beast as Angelus even though he doesn't remember. Make this claim on the alleged authority of the Powers that Be so he'll listen.
(5) Mix in one arrogant, dark ex-Watcher ex-Rogue demon hunter who thinks he can bring Angelus back safely for a day and...

voila' -- instant Angelus.
[> [> Spoilers through 'Release' above -- Masq, 13:09:27 03/19/03 Wed

[> [> The paradoxical temptation of Saint Cordelia -- KdS, 13:38:40 03/19/03 Wed

Masq, I can see why you left out the "Dark Cordelia" theories, because I don't think there's any reasonable way of justifying it in character terms. On the other hand, I'm influenced by yab's position that to have Cordy copied or blamelessly possessed would be unsatisfying from an artistic point of view, leaving Cordelia without any real character development for a whole season. Last night, I had a little idea (marginally influenced by some hints Scroll and I believe WickedBuffy have made) which splits the difference.

My big leap was realising that in all Angel's philosophical transitions, from fighting for the big brass humanity to his Mike Hammer period to his existentialism of late-S2 and on, we've failed to notice that Cordelia has been moving in exactly the opposite direction. From her pained acceptance of the visions in mid-S1 she's rapidly become a quietly fanatical follower of the PTB, giving up every opportunity to escape her destiny, covering up her imminent death, and finally giving up everything on Earth. In That Vision Thing one wonders if her real agony isn't so much the physical pain as the belief that the PTB have betrayed her for some strange reason. What I suddenly started wondering last night, is what if we've been wrongly assuming that this is meant to be admirable? What if the events since Birthday have all been a set-up? In Birthday and Tomorrow she assumes that Skip is an emissary from the PTB with her interests at heart on little more than his say so. It's already been suggested that while Cordelia's motives are mainly honourable, it's perfectly in character for her to take a certain egotistical pleasure in being a self-sacrificing Chosen One (after being second fiddle to a self-sacrificing Chosen One for two years or so). What if at some point in her sojourn in the sky she was told "We need you to act as a vessel for a great emissary for good. Just trust it absolutely and don't fight whatever it does. It might seem odd or painful at some points, but it's all part of the divine plan." If Cordelia is knowingly harbouring a non-human entity in the trusting belief that it's a force for good, but which has been gradually and progressively taking her over (between Slouching and the explicit unmasking of Evil!Cordy in Calvary) it explains a lot of the odd mixture of apparent plotting with seemingly genuine shock and discomfort that we've been seeing.

The really attractive idea for me is that this would fit Cordelia's story back in with the generally suspicious atmosphere of the Buffyverse towards grand mystical authority. The idea of Cordelia as saintly and unquestioning follower of the PTB, rewarded for her faith, never fit to me with the suspicion we've seen towards the Watchers' Council, the Knights of Byzantium, and other mystical forces of "good". In the past, we've been taught to treat apparently benevolent mystical forces with deep suspicion and constant scrutiny. If we see "Saint Cordelia" as a naïve follower being groomed for a role as carrier for a force of darkness (and I'm willing to leave it entirely open whether the PTB are being debunked, or whether she was deceived by the mystical version of Alias's SD10) it radically recasts a lot of what seemed unsatisfying in S3. It allows us to see Cordelia's righteousness in S3, her preoccupation with Angel and the mission and abandonment of Wes, and her controversial decision in Tomorrow as signs of a dangerously unthinking world view. It also allows Cordelia to be possibly brought back at the end of the season without a total get-out-of-jail-free card for all the events this year, but also without repeating any of the previous redemption stories we've seen - a character whose shift to the Dark Side came not through surrender to any inner evil, but through a completely well-intentioned, but naïve trust in her mystical Betters (albeit involving a certain measure of ego). One also wonders if this might explain the odd reports that have been circulating about David Greenwalt's departure from the series. Some posters have reported rumours that he thought unidentified plot ideas were too dark, which seemed odd in a man who happily contributed to S2. However, if I'm right and we're seeing Cordelia's unquestioning faith portrayed as a dangerous snare, this might have been too much for the reputedly religious Greenwalt to approve of.
[> [> [> Re: The paradoxical temptation of Saint Cordelia -- Masq, 14:14:44 03/19/03 Wed

we're seeing Cordelia's unquestioning faith portrayed as a dangerous snare

So let me see if I have your idea down. You are suggesting one of two things, I think. In one scenario, the PTB's aren't as good as has been suggested, and in Cordelia's unwavering faith in them, she is being lead down the garden path. The other suggestion is that some force for Evil, with Skip as emissary, took advantage of Cordelia's unwavering faith in the PTB's and is now leading her down the garden path.

In both scenarios, this is the real Cordelia, brought back to Earth, operating under the influence of something Else, but something Else she gave herself over to willingly and misguidedly in the beginning.

Now that thing (and this might be my own personal addition to the theory) has all but taken over her and is doing things she would not condone, like killing Lilah and letting Angelus out of his cage.

I could totally see this. I was never comfortable with the "Saint Cordelia" scenario precisely because it didn't seem dark enough for Whedon and AtS. Cordelia's self-righteousness was an extension of the self-assuredness and arrogance she's always had, but maybe ME wanted to go somewhere with that. Show what can happen with self-righteousness goes too far.

Does that sound like what you're saying? Because I like it.
[> [> [> [> You've got it exactly -- KdS, 03:37:08 03/20/03 Thu

I think either of your two scenarios are possible (although I prefer the second on gut feeling). And, yes, I do believe that Cordelia is now utterly possessed. On the amnesia issue, I can speculate two possibilities. The first is that whoever's pulling the strings wiped Cordelia's memory as a distracting tactic to stop Angel and the others asking the deeper questions. The second is that the entity in question was implanted during either her vision in Slouching or the spell in Spin, and Cordy's memory was wiped to stop *her* thinking too hard or letting something slip.
[> [> [> Great post!! -- Rahael, 16:56:21 03/19/03 Wed

Okay, I can buy this. Really good!
[> [> [> A question, KdS -- Masq, 18:27:26 03/19/03 Wed

On your theory, what purpose would the amnesia serve? Or, if it serves no purpose, why did it happen?
[> [> [> Re: The paradoxical temptation of Saint Cordelia -- yabyumpan, 19:38:41 03/19/03 Wed

Wonderful post and thank you for taking my unease about 'everything is Evil Cordy' and making sense of it. :o)

Your theory also covers another reason for my unease. Every one at AI over the past year has, to a greater or lesser degree, acted in a way to make them feel ashamed and need to 'atone'; Wesley's taking of Connor and the subsquent journey into to his 'dark' self, Gunn and Fred's killing of the proffessor, Angel's action while Angelus and trying to kill Wesley. If everything that Cordy has done this season is clone/possesed/not-real Cordy, then it really sets her apart from the journey the others are taking and that doesn't fit in with ME's MO, they like to have their character's stories mirror each other in some way and they never give a 'get out of jail free' card.

It seems to me that what ME has done with these characters is to hold a magnifying glass over their faults, insecurities and 'innner demons' and caused them to act in ways they are ashamed of:
With Wesley it was his fear of 'the bad father' and his shame at 'failing', with Gunn his need to protect and his guilt that he couldn't protect Alonna and others in his gang, with Fred.... not really sure, maybe Rah could fill in the blanks for this ;-), for Lorne his desire to be famous led him to Los Vegas and into the clutches of someone who wanted to use his powers to steal people's destinies.
Now with your 'big leap' we can see Cordelia's vanity and unquestioning acceptance of a 'higher power' magnified. Before she lost everything because of her father's tax fraud, she was the 'chosen one' in a materialistic sense, she had everything - beauty, wealth, status, power. When she got the visions from Doyle she became the 'chosen one' again, she was once more special but it also allowed her to develop her compassion and to turn her famous tactlessness into insightful truthfulness. The PTB or whoever is behind all this, was able to use her need to be 'special' and her new found compassion for their own ends, whatever that turns out to be
[> [> [> I like this a whole lot -- cjl, 09:03:30 03/20/03 Thu

Twenty bucks on KdS' theory.
[> Awakening (Salvage spoilers) -- Masq, 13:22:37 03/19/03 Wed

So Wesley suggested rather rashly that they bring Angelus back, in order to get the evil vampire to reveal what he knew about the Beast. Everyone in TV land was shaking their heads and going, "Can we just marvel at the wrongness of this plan?!" And of course, some of use were, at the same time, going, "Angelus, yeah!"

At any rate, one by one Angel Investigations team jumped on the bring-back Angelus train. As long as it was temporary, done with all possible safety precautions, and (strangely enough!) the only plan available, they were O.K. with it.

It didn't start out that way, of course, Wesley brings the soul-extractor to the Hyperion and naturally, Angel objects. And Wesley can't persuade him otherwise, because Welsey has angered by not bothering to consult him before he went out and found the shaman in the first place. But Angel has a soft spot for Cordelia, and she comes to him and talks Angel right into it.

"Cordelia" (for she's got to be the Evil!Cordelia we meet at the end of Calvary by now!) points out how all life will die without the sun. She tells Angel that she suspects that he is being used by the Beast without his knowledge (re: death of Manny). She tells Angel that Angelus is smart and cunning and that he thinks like the Beast.

So they do it. They take Angel's soul out, just like the Evil Thing inside/that is Cordelia has been manipulating them to do all along.

If the Evil Thing that is/is inside Cordelia is now in control, one wonders what she is thinking as she stands beside the cage in the basement watching Angel get a soul-extraction (besides, "Mwah hah hah hah! My fiendishly evil scheme is working!")

In particular, I'm actually wondering if she had anything to do with the content of Angel's perfect day hallucination. What got me wondering this is the fact that Cordelia's second "white-eyed" vision happens inside Angel's hallucination. Now he might have just borrowed that from seeing her go all white-eyed in "Apocalypse Nowish", but there is a manipulativeness to the Cordelia in the hallucination that makes me wonder.

Maybe Evil!Cordelia is playing the role of Cordelia in his hallucination, doing what she needs to do to get hallucination!Angel to get as happy as possible. After the close brush with death in the cavern, Cordelia lands in Angel's arms and confesses how she wanted to be with Angel when she slept with Connor. She tells him how she no longer cares about all the horrible things he did as Angelus--she wants to be with him anyway. Later, Angel and Cordelia have a desperate lover's heart-to-heart before he takes on the Beast.

Of course, we all agreed that this, and all the other self-satisfying stuff conjured up in the hallucination was easily the product of Angel's mind, his ideal fantasies. Otherwise, it would not have made him happy. That doesn't mean Evil!Cordelia didn't shape some of the elements of the hallucination. It just means she shaped them based on her intimate knowledge of what would make Angel too happy.

The biggest piece of evidence that Evil!Cordelia might have shaped Angel's dream is when she uses just the right words to get him to relent to his sexual passion. Of course, the decision to relent is ultimately Angel's, but hallucination!Cordelia was a persistent little thing:

"No. Whatever it is. Whatever the reason or excuse or logic, we're here. Now. Together. Everything is the way it's supposed to be. For once. Angel... haven't we waited long enough?"

If I was a pent-up Angel and the beautiful Cordelia whom I desire called my angst over the possibility of "true happiness" during sex an "excuse", I might have relented as well.

The only argument I can think of that is specifically AGAINST Evil!Cordelia having a hand in the content of Angel's dream is that this dream provides a clue to how to kill the Beast. His death in the hallucination closely paralleled his actual death in Salvage.

In the hallucination , the Beast was stabbed with a special sword. In "Salvage" he was stabbed with a knife forged from his own bones. In both cases, the Beast needed to be stabbed with something very specific. And in both the hallucination and reality, the death of the Beast brought about the reversal of the sun-blocking spell and restored day light.

But maybe Evil!Cordelia doesn't care if the hallucination provided clues to Angelus about how to kill the Beast. Maybe she was tired of her jealous, clumsy minion anyway. And maybe she didn't need the sun gone once she had what she really wanted: Angelus.

Might there be other goodies in Angel's hallucination that give us portents of what is to come? How about the way Connor was necessary to help Angel defeat the Beast? Might father and son cooperation be necessary to defeat Evil!Cordelia?
You know when you've settled into ATPOBTVS when... -- KdS, 13:35:28 03/18/03 Tue

To celebrate the board's successful resurrection (but did it involve anyone vomiting live snakes? And will anyone's loved one get shot in the back as the universe vengefully balances the books?)

You know you've been posting a while when...

You've realised that you don't need to type (NT)

Someone alludes to their own or another poster's real-world problems and you think you know what they're getting at.

After a new episode airs, you find yourself getting impatient for a particular person's or persons' take on it.

You've accidentally insulted someone and offered to leave the board in contrition.

You've decided not to bother to react to something that upset you emotionally.

Someone else uses a neologism or abbreviation you invented.

You've managed to find a Buffyverse excuse to expand over your personal field of knowledge/favourite other literature, film or TV series.

You've had a 2000 word essay you sweated blood over get archived without a single response.

You've made a flip comment when drunk or tired and sparked off a twenty-post subthread of intelligent discussion.

You've tried HTML in a post and got it to work.

You've tried HTML in a post, dropped a tag, and left the whole bottom of the page in italic or bold.

You've given your dark side a name and hence taken the first step to controlling it.

You've found out enough to bluff your way in a subject you never knew existed.

You've discovered that a religion, philosophy or ideology that you once dismissed with utter contempt has something in it.

You've been utterly astonished to discover another poster's real-world sex, age, occupation or nationality.

You've actually met another poster in real life and found they were as nice in the flesh as digitised.

Any more?
[> LOL -- ponygirl, 14:07:40 03/18/03 Tue

I'd also add:

You've got a reading list of board recommendations that you dutifully carry to the bookstore

You've actually had a board-related dream

You found it deeply unsettling when Rob posted his negative review of Him
[> This one says it all... -- Masq, 14:28:01 03/18/03 Tue

You've accidentally insulted someone and offered to leave the board in contrition.

I think it's an official initiation rite.
[> Re: You know when you've settled into ATPOBTVS when... -- Rahael, 16:14:17 03/18/03 Tue

When everything listed rings true!!
[> Re: You know when you've settled into ATPOBTVS when... -- WickedBuffy, 20:02:13 03/18/03 Tue

Those were great, KdS! I especially liked this one:

"You've found out enough to bluff your way in a subject you never knew existed."
[> Re: You know when you've settled into ATPOBTVS when... -- Sara, not nearly as funny as KDS but is known to be obsessed, 20:24:47 03/18/03 Tue

You've spent an entire Saturday catching up with the board when you really meant to do things with your kid and clean your house.

You get as much satisfaction from seeing all the board links turned purple as you do from successfully completing a project at work.

You put up a post that no one responds to and decide that no one loves you, even though you almost never respond to the wonderful posts that you read.
[> Re: You know when you've settled into ATPOBTVS when... -- CW, 20:39:36 03/18/03 Tue

A few more:

When someone you thought surely never read your timid offerings, quotes you elsewhere on the board.

When you've started a thread that you end up wishing would just go away.

When you stop feeling like you must reply to each and every response to a thread you've started.

When you look forward to OT topics from the "old timers" as much as their on topic stuff.

When you can't stay on-line very long and see a thread that from the subject lines looks like something you could put off reading till next time. Then you notice a posting name or two decide to read it right away anyhow.

When you've ever been late for anything because you were reading or posting to the board.
[> [> I've done almost all of the above!!!!!!!! -- deeva, 21:06:16 03/18/03 Tue

Holy cow! I'm blown away by all the little checkmarks I've placed next to everything. I would maybe venture to add this:

You know enough to not feed the trolls or when to join in and smother a troll thread with much conjecturing or silliness or both.

You begin to remember other posters little quirks and ism's and begin to expect it.
[> I can add a few... -- pr10n, 23:16:17 03/18/03 Tue

You type a post, reread it, and then judge it severely: "Not smart enough" or "Derivative" or "Too snarky." Then you clear it.

You print out the coolest threads, study them and assimilate them, and then peddle smartness to your friends. Sometimes you acknowledge the source, but usually you nod wisely.

You wish you could have a cooler demon self. Nastier! Pointier! Like a demon-y Steve Austin, instead of Bitter! Fatter! Stranger!.

You wonder how many times William had to explain his new handle "Spike" and did he have a weirder name first, like "Guitarzan"?
[> [> And.... -- luna, 07:17:08 03/19/03 Wed

When you start sending copies of posts to people who don't even watch Buffy.

When ATPoBtVSaAtS is at the top of your bookmark list.

When the other people who share your computer stand behind you and tap their toes for half an hour before you notice they're waiting.

When you ask a really dumb question and discover that someone has written a brilliant 12 page essay elucidating the topic, with scholarly references and evidence from 14 different episodes, all quoted from the correct script.

When you write a brilliant (to you) post and lose it between send and approve, and finally learn to write elsewhere, then cut and paste.

When you see a list of names writing posts and responding to them, and you can guess which will be pro and which con (and also know that you'll probably be surprised by being wrong).
[> [> [> Re: And.... -- Arethusa, 07:30:55 03/19/03 Wed

When ATPoBtVSaAtS is at the top of your bookmark list.

Or when ATPoBtVS&AtS Discussion Forum is your home page, and your computer plays AtS's theme when Windows loads.

Hypothetically speaking, of course. ;o)
[> Re: You know when you've settled into ATPOBTVS when... -- HonorH, 23:43:12 03/18/03 Tue

Your Super-Evil Alter-Ego is as easily recognizable as your usual self.

Or, as I prefer: when your Dull-As-Ben-Affleck Alter-Ego has actually registered in the board's collective consciousness.

Go to bed, Honorificus.
[> Re: You know when you've settled into ATPOBTVS when... -- Anneth, 11:09:56 03/19/03 Wed

- Having someone reply to your post with "good post!" is the highlight of your day.

- Having someone reply to your post with "kaboom" is the highlight of your week.

- you constantly refresh the main page to see if anyone has replied to your most recent post. Hopefully with "good post!" :)
[> ...When you fear the almighty Voynok demon -- Tyreseus, 17:07:53 03/20/03 Thu

Who has eaten every single post I've attempted to make for the last week. I'm beginning to develop a complex, I feel like the invisible girl. Does anyone notice me? Can anyone see me?

Ty (fading away)
[> [> Did someone say something? -- Caira, 23:59:10 03/20/03 Thu

I missed the explanation about why... (spoiler Conversations wthe Dead) -- WickedBuffy ::striking a dumb blonde pose::, 20:15:06 03/18/03 Tue

All this time I thought the Cassie/etc who appeared to Willow in the library was FE? But she leaned on the table and sat in a chair. I'm sure I missed the explanation on the Boards - but my search function never works in the archives.

Could someone enlighten me?

er, just on this point - it would take centuries to really enlighten me. ;>
[> Re: A thought -- Philistine, 20:33:29 03/18/03 Tue

It only looked like FE-Cassie sat in the chair and leaned on the table. Did she scoot the chair when she sat down? Rock back on the back legs? Nudge the table when she leaned on it? I didn't notice anything to indicate that she was actually interacting with the furniture. As long as she didn't move anything or pick anything up, we're okay.

If FE-Cassie were helpless to avoid sinking through the chair to the floor, why wouldn't she be equally helpless to avoid sinking straight through the floor as well?
[> [> ok, I just finished watching that part again... (spoiler CWDP) -- WickedBuffy, 21:10:17 03/18/03 Tue

and though you don't hear the chair being pushed back, it is pushed back after Cassie's gone.

But, more importantly - when Willow stands up and then Cassie does, you can definitely hear Cassies hands hit the table.

I know FE could probably have faked touching the bookcase, etc - but I'm thinking that either ME wasn't clear on the incorporealness of FE when they shot that scene, or they "soldified" that aspect of FE later.

No big deal - just making sure I wasn't missing some important point there if it hand't been the FE.

(thanks for answering, Philistine!)
[> [> [> Well, FEWarren -- HonorH, 23:31:18 03/18/03 Tue

had audible footsteps in "Storyteller". Perhaps the FE can replicate those sounds, or has limited interaction with the inanimate. Or maybe it's just too freakin' hard to weed out all possible physical interaction and they're just concentrating on basic human contact. My advice? Don't look (or listen) too close.
[> [> [> [> Re: Well, FEWarren -- Quentin Collins, 23:45:19 03/18/03 Tue

I don't get too bent out of shape about little things like that, but I wonder why they didn't have actors portraying the FE wear soft soled shoes or set their scenes where they would be walking on soft ground or carpet. Again, I don't get too upset about the FE's footfalls, but ME knows that they have a very picky core audience who demand that every 'i' be dotted and every 't' be crossed so to speak.
[> [> [> [> [> Gee, do we know anybody like that? They must have no lives . . . -- HonorH (big with the irony), 23:47:18 03/18/03 Tue

[> If you haven't seen Sixth Sense, don't read this response... -- ZachsMind, 21:32:46 03/18/03 Tue

Okay here's the thing. The First can't move physical matter. It is confined by it. I mean it can apparently teleport, but when in the environment of a reality, it's restricted to what's around. It can lean up against the wall. We've seen FE/Spike and FE/Buffy do that. It just can't move anything. We've never actually seen the producers of the show have The First walking through anything. I think if it actually tried to move something, it could touch it and even grip the object, but it couldn't move the object from the spot that it's in.

It's like in the movie Sixth Sense, and again, if you haven't seen the movie yet, STOP READING NOW, GO TO A BLOCKBUSTER AND RENT IT, THEN COME BACK AND CONTINUE READING. End of spoiler warning. Bruce Willis is like, dead. He's a ghost, but he doesn't know he's dead. Throughout the film if you go back and watch it a second time, Bruce Willis is sitting in chairs. We see him walk through doorways but he never has to actually open a door. When you watch it the first time you don't think about it, cuz you don't know to watch for it, but even though he goes through the whole movie looking alive and all, when you go back and think about it you realize that he never actually DID anything to physical stuff. The kid never actually touches him. He never actually talks to the kid's mother. It just LOOKS like they've been having a conversation. This ain't an easy thing for any director or actor to do. I think the Mutant Enemy gang's done a pretty good job with The First, considering how hard it is to keep that thing going in a visual medium.

Because of this, I still think the Giles we see might be the FE, cuz I still haven't seen him actually affect anything real. I may have missed it. He asks the potentials to pick stuff up and move things around. We did see Xander & Dawn & Andrew & Anya touch Giles. Maybe that's enough. We saw Spike literally tackle Giles. Maybe that's enough. I've yet to see anyone ever actually try to tackle The First when we KNOW it's The First.

Buffy may have been able to attack The First, but she's been too afraid of it to go straight for it. And even if she did, The First could just teleport away and then pop back in and make funny "nyah nyah" faces at her.
[> [> 'Don't try to hurt me, I'm not really here.' (suckers!) -- WickedBuffy (vague spoilerish if you don't know the FE), 21:56:18 03/18/03 Tue

Hmm, you bring up a good point - has anyone tried to punch it? Have we seen the nothingness of FE proved?

What a great scam if you COULD touch it. All this time everyone was just going by a sentence in an old book. Plus the PR that FE spreads about itself.

Or if someone already did poke thru itand they showed it (and I forgot the scene) if it was just a one-time trick? Not FEs usual state?
[> [> [> didn't Buffy try to punch it in Amends? She went through it I think. -- Helen, 00:35:37 03/19/03 Wed

[> [> Re: If you haven't seen Sixth Sense, don't read this response... -- ejs, 22:09:18 03/18/03 Tue

I'm in almost total agreement with everything you just said, except that I bet the FE can walk through walls. I think it can simulate gripping an object-- I would go so far as to say that it could have simulated the sound of hands smacking the table-- but I think anyone tackling it would pass right through it. (See Andrew's hand in Never Leave Me.)

But Giles-- after it was disproved he was the FE, he was (pointedly) shown carrying groceries. He also offered the Vietnamese SIT a glass of milk. I guess it could have been a simulated glass of milk, but...
[> [> I don't think so (spoilers for 'First Date') -- skyMatrix, 22:47:30 03/18/03 Tue

From the shooting script, because you guys had me wondering if I remembered correctly.

Jonathan PUTS HIS HAND RIGHT THROUGH THE CROSS.

I think that was the first time they proved that the First is something you can past right through.
[> [> [> Re: I don't think so (spoilers for 'First Date') -- Quentin Collins, 23:24:10 03/18/03 Tue

Didn't Wood also walk right through the FE when it appeared as his mother in the same episode?
[> [> [> [> Yep. (Spoilers for NLM) -- HonorH, 23:35:05 03/18/03 Tue

Also, Andrew put his hand through FEWarren. The First is good and incorporeal, all right.
Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and... (S7 spec, not spoilers) -- Just George, 20:43:25 03/18/03 Tue

I've been thinking for a while that the "back to the beginning" tag was multi-purpose. The line that ME used for years is that the demons in BTVS were metaphors for people's inner struggles. "If we want to deal with lust, we make a lust demon, fear, a fear demon" to paraphrase the writers at ME. That hasn't been the case as much recently. The demons have been less metaphorical and more rooted in the needs of the saga. Willow flays, so a demon flays her in return.

But, perhaps ME is going "back to the beginning" for their big season metaphor. Because if a part of the main metaphor for Season 7 is Buffy's inner struggle with her darkness (and I think it is) then what "demon" represents that?

I think the answer is that the First Evil will be revealed as the power behind the slayer line and therefore represents Buffy's inner darkness. The shadowmen needed a powerful force to empower the slayers. The more power they gave the slayers, the better they could fight evil. Why not go to the source, the embodiment of evil, to get the power to fight evil.


Cassie/The First: "Fact is, the whole good-versus-evil, balancing the scales thing- I'm over it. I'm done with the mortal coil. But believe me, I'm going for a big finish."


It explains why the FE talked about the "whole good-versus-evil, balancing the scales thing ", if it is both the First Evil and the power source for the balancing force of the slayer line. It also gives a reason why the disruption in the slayer line allows the FE free reign. The slayer line may be what has kept the FE trapped in the "mortal coil".

And if the FE is what empowers slayers, then this also makes the metaphor for the season Buffy vs. herself. Not Buffy vs. her human despair (as in S6), but Buffy vs. the evil inside. We all have evil in ourselves: envy, hatred, prejudice, unreasoning fear. All the seven deadly sins and many more. The FE embodies them. From Amends via Psyche:


Jenny/The First: "Hmm. You think you can fight me? I'm not a demon, little girl. I am something that you can't even conceive. The First Evil. Beyond sin, beyond death. I am the thing the darkness fears. You'll never see me, but I am everywhere. Every being, every thought, every drop of hate."


Buffy has ultimately defeated every "demon" that has been thrown at her. But I think the final demon will be herself. Somehow Buffy will find a way to physically engage The First, and The First will fight back in Buffy's guise. The season has been so color coordinated, it might even be black blouse Buffy vs. white blouse Buffy.

If this isn't all just blowing smoke, I expect that a part of the finale will be a knock down, drag out Buffy vs. Buffy fight. One to make Buffy vs. Faith (S3 & S4) and Buffy vs. Glory (S5) look tame.

But, I agree with those who suggest that the ultimate victory won't just come from white blouse Buffy beating the snot out of black blouse Buffy. She has to defeat evil. But Buffy has to let go of envy, hatred, prejudice, and unreasoning fear; the power behind evil. Drained of those things, perhaps the FE can leave the "mortal coil" without causing the final apocalypse.

Just a theory. Comments welcome.

-JG
[> Re: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and... (S7 spec, not spoilers) -- M, 22:00:21 03/18/03 Tue

This is very similar to what I have been thinking for a while now but I would phrase it not as "black blouse Buffy vs. white blouse Buffy" but rather as a fight between Buffy Summers and the Slayer.
In "Conversations with Dead People" Buffy talks about her superiority complex about being the Slayer and feeling inferior about it. She feels that Buffy Summers is not worthy of the power she has. The have been thousands of Slayers throughout time and certainly some have been great but few if any have survived as long as she has and I doubt that any have faced as many Apocalypses. Buffy needs to learn in the end that she is worthy of love and respect because of who she is, not what.
[> [> I believe the term is 'Kaboom!' -- HonorH, 23:54:07 03/18/03 Tue

Keep it up, people. This is where my intuition is leading me, too.

One thing to add: Buffy has always had a love/hate relationship with the Slayer. Sometimes, she enjoys what she is. I get the feeling, though, that she doesn't *like* enjoying being the Slayer. Like if she enjoys it too much, she'll end up like Faith. It's like the old Puritan ethic that if you're enjoying it, it must be wrong. I think that before the season is over, she'll have to come to peace with the Slayer and either totally embrace herself as both Buffy Summers *and* the Slayer, or be able to give up the Slayer completely.
[> [> [> Re: I believe the term is 'Kaboom!' -- maddog, 11:30:10 03/19/03 Wed

If it's the latter I wonder how they'll handle it. You just can't give up being a slayer. It's not that simple.
[> [> [> [> I've been thinking about that -- dream, 11:47:52 03/19/03 Wed

I can easily imagine a scenario in which Buffy needs to give up her Slayerhood (via a Willow spell, presumably) to restore the order of the Slayer line - the One Chosen, and just the one, that is. It would make sense. In a way, she deserves retirement. But here's the trouble - Buffy spent a long time fighting her Slayerhood. Her embrace of it was slow and difficult. If she were to have to give it up, she would need to learn to live a very different life - and, unless the whole world is cleansed of demons (and if that's it, how does the Buffyverse continue - Angel and movies and all) she has to give up her power while knowing that all the scary stuff is still out there. Remembering how that scared her in Helpless, I can't imagine she would take to it any more easily now. Not that it's impossible, mind you, just that it seems like a long story, and rather a sad one, not something that could be told in a few episodes. Which is all to say, I still don't know what's coming. Which is good.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I've been thinking about that -- maddog, 12:24:13 03/19/03 Wed

Agreed. Even if she was capable of giving it up I wonder how she'd handle it. How do you spend 7 years fighting demons and then not have the itch to do so when you don't have to? I think I'd feel awfully guilty if I had the power to make the world a better place and I gave it up because I sometimes get tired of doing the job. There are way too many moral issues here. :(
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A trade -- Just George, 13:08:45 03/19/03 Wed

I don't know if Buffy would give up being a slayer for nothing. But, perhaps she would trade it for something greater, much like she traded her life for Dawn's in "The Gift." Buffy might trade away the power of the slayer line in exchange for stopping the apocalypse, closing the Hellmouth, and letting the First Evil abandon the "mortal coil" peacefully. I could see that.

-JG
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Absolutely -- dream, 13:53:09 03/19/03 Wed

I completely agree. I guess my complaint is that I will still have so many questions - like how will she adjust and can she ever feel safe as an ordinary person? - that I can't imagine the sory ending there. But, admittedly, I think it will be hard for me to imagine the story ending at all. Sigh.
[> [> [> [> [> More Thoughts -- M, 14:04:09 03/19/03 Wed

Yes that is exactly the point. Buffy was terrified in "Helpless" because she feared she would "revert" to what she had been before she was called but the point of that episode was she didn't. The methods used by the watchers council were cruel and unfair but they did have a point to make. Buffy without the aid of her super slayer strength and speed, still saved her mother and beat the bad guy. The courage and resourcefulness came from Buffy, not the Slayer. This is the lesson that Buffy still needs to learn and that is what I mean when I say Buffy vs. the Slayer.

Does that mean she will need to give up the Slayer power? No. But she needs to learn that even if she did, she would still be Buffy.

Buffy feels superior because of her power and her responsibility. But there are others how also have great power and even a destiny of there own. It is different of course, mainly because this show is about her, but Angel has his own destiny (show) and the destiny (spin-offs) of others such as Willow, Faith and even Spike have been discussed. Is the Slayer destiny really greater than that of the Witch or the Vampire with a soul (either one)?

Buffy feels inferior because she still thinks that without her Slayer power she would be just like she was before she was called, but that was when she was fifteen!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More Thoughts -- Just George, 15:46:57 03/19/03 Wed

M: "Buffy feels inferior because she still thinks that without her Slayer power she would be just like she was before she was called, but that was when she was fifteen!"


I'm not sure I agree. I think Buffy feels inferior because she feels unworthy of her power. From CWDP:


Buffy: "I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. It's like... I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved."


All Buffy sees are her mistakes. As much as coming to grips with her own inner demons, Buffy also has to come to grips with the fact that she is a hero.


-JG
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's options post-slayerhood? -- Dyna, 16:18:05 03/19/03 Wed

I've also given this some thought, because I have it as a pet theory also that Buffy will be called upon to fix the disruption in the slayer line by "choosing" her own successor--voluntarily giving up her slayer powers. While definitely at the point where she was in "Helpless" this was something Buffy really dreaded, I don't think that would necessarily be true (or even a sad event) today.

For one thing, I don't think Buffy at this point is limited to either keeping her powers or abandoning (or being forced to the sidelines in) the fight against evil. Note that Buffy is already surrounded by people who lack superpowers, yet are active and important to this fight--Giles being the first example, now also including Xander, Dawn, and Anya. Previously it included the entire Watchers Council. Certainly the issue of what a "normal" person can contribute to the fight has been raised, and answered in some affirmative ways, thoughout the season.

In addition, we've seen Buffy (and Spike to a lesser extent) taking up the task of training the potential slayers, picking up a job left vacant by the destruction of the WC and the killing of most of the watchers. Is there a role for Buffy in building a new organization--with entirely different methods and principles--that takes the place of the WC in the care and training of slayers and watchers, preservation of knowledge, etc? I could easily see that being the fate of Buffy, and really all of the Scooby Gang. (With all her language and research acumen, Dawn would make an excellent watcher in training, wouldn't she?) I think it would be wonderfully fitting if the end of Buffy's career as a Slayer was not death, but the birth of a new way of life for the slayer line--one that is founded on a model of inclusion and empowerment, rather than patriarchal control and isolation. It just seems so fitting, somehow.

:) Dyna
[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! -- HonorH, 07:13:05 03/20/03 Thu

This is exactly what I think should happen. Who better to train Slayers and Watchers than a former Slayer? A whole new paradigm, started by Buffy and intended to keep the Slayer not only alive, but thriving while she lives. And yes, Dawn would make a lovely Watcher-in-Training.

As long as they don't make her wear tweed.

Good morning to you, too, Honorificus.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That might also explain... -- MaeveRigan, 10:17:34 03/20/03 Thu

"Dawn would make a lovely Watcher-in-Training."

If so, that could explain GlowyJoyce's cryptic message in "Conversations with Dead People" (whether or not she was really the First): "When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you."

Sounds threatening (which is doubtless why Dawn apparently still hasn't mentioned it to Buffy), but maybe all it means is that Buffy won't choose Dawn as the next slayer (IMO, the jury's still out on whether Dawn has Potential or not), or that she won't choose her for some other dangerous mission. But Dawn's definitely demonstrating all kinds of "extraordinary" qualities this season. I've completely reversed my views on the Dawnster.
[> [> [> [> [> [> It's all true -- dream, 10:29:41 03/20/03 Thu

I just want to be there to watch the trials and tribulations of the transition. I'm convinced it could be great for Buffy, but it just seems worthy of a much longer story. But I guess pretty much all the options seems worthy of a longer story.....
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, keep in mind -- HonorH, 10:21:22 03/21/03 Fri

that what we've been watching all this time is the story of Buffy, the Slayer. If all this speculation is correct, the end of the series will see the end of *that* story. Anything she might do afterward is another story altogether. One which one hopes Joss will feel compelled to tell in some form, of course, even if it's not televised.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fair enough, -- dream, 11:50:04 03/21/03 Fri

I have to keep my "oh-my-god-I-can't-believe-it's-over" emotions out of my responses. An unwillingness to see things end, a desire to revisit every incidental character, overly high expectations for the conclusion, and so on definitely skew your focus. I've been a big proponent of the Buffy hands over the Slayer power and becomes the head of a new Watcher's Council thing for a while, but I got cold feet. I think the problem is that I'm not ready for Buffy not to be the Slayer, not necessarily that she isn't. Pretty embarrassing. I'm also not ready to see the show end without seeing Catherine Madison get out of the statue. And I want assurances that the Giles spin-off will happen and that both Olivia and Ethan Rayne will show up. And I'm really, really, mad that the storyline I always hoped they would end with (Xander gets vamped and Buffy decides she's going to figure out a way to eradicate vampirism for once and for all, making all vampires human again) is just never going to happen.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That, dollface, is what fanfic is for. -- HonorH, 16:23:50 03/21/03 Fri

And once the series is over, we ficcers can do pretty much whatever we bloody well like without fear of getting Jossed. You want to see your scenario happen? Write it up! *I'd* certainly read it.
[> [> [> Re: I believe the term is 'Kaboom!' -- maddog, 11:53:32 03/19/03 Wed

If it's the latter I wonder how they'll handle it. You just can't give up being a slayer. It's not that simple.
[> Re: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and... (S7 spec, not spoilers) -- Rahael, 02:54:36 03/19/03 Wed

JG, I started off with just that premise with my 'Wild Spirit' post - and I completely agree that Buffy cannot beat her own self to a pulp and win. (I don't want to put words in Random or LB's mouths, but their posts explore this as well)

That's what 'hard' Buffy might want to do - deny. It has to be faced, confronted and resolved (in a very cool, but believable way, with lots of Special Effects !!)

The only thing is, can one person eradicate envy, hatered, aggression within themselves? Or does, perhaps, the power that lies behind our selfishenss, darkness, envy etc, does all that also produce other, finer things? I just see these as natural human emotions that all of us have, can never eradicate, but must understand and resolve within ourselves without letting it affect others around us.
[> [> Re: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and... (S7 spec, not spoilers) -- Just George, 13:19:49 03/19/03 Wed

Rahael: "The only thing is, can one person eradicate envy, hatered, aggression within themselves? Or does, perhaps, the power that lies behind our selfishenss, darkness, envy etc, does all that also produce other, finer things? I just see these as natural human emotions that all of us have, can never eradicate, but must understand and resolve within ourselves without letting it affect others around us."


I don't think that Buffy can eradicate her dark emotions. I think that she can, at least for a moment, let them go. It may be a bit like forgiveness. I can think badly of a person who has done wrong, but I can forgive them so that we can go forward. The dark emotions seem very much about living in the past. The positive emotions are about living in the future.

-JG
[> 'I've seen the enemy and it be us' -- Yoda, 08:12:24 03/19/03 Wed

Just George, I love this theory. "I expect that a part of the finale will be a knock down, drag out Buffy vs. Buffy fight. One to make Buffy vs. Faith (S3 & S4) and Buffy vs. Glory (S5) look tame."

I belive Lessons was a guidepost for what was to come. The hero's journey is one in which the hero travels through the labyrinth of life (symbolized in Lessons by the maze that is the HS basement) which is filled with trials and obstacles which the hero must face along the way (represented by the sequence of BB's at the end of Lessons). When the hero reaches the heart of the labyrinth the hero must face the monster at its center (as represented by Buffy appearing last in the sequence of BB's). At its most basic level the labyrinth is a metaphor for the journey to the center of your deepest self and back out into the world with a broadened understanding of who you are.

"We have not even to risk the adventure alone; for the heroes of all time have gone before us; the labyrinth is thoroughly known; we have only to follow the thread of the hero-path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the centre of our own existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world"
- Joseph Campbell, The Hero With A Thousand Faces, p.25

I recently read a wonderful analysis of Pink Floyd's The Wall. The album and movie are basically about a rock star that chooses to build a mental wall between himself and the rest of the world. "Every incident that causes Pink pain is yet another brick in his ever-growing wall": The Trial section I copied below is really cool and relates a great deal to what I think Buffy is going through. Here is the link if anyone would like to read more of the analysis: http://home.mchsi.com/~ttint/

"Considering that much of "the Wall" can be read from a psychoanalytic perspective (as I've done in many of the songs), I thought I would include a brief Jungian interpretation of "the Trial." (I highly recommend the book the Portable Jung as a starting point for those unfamiliar with the works of this psychological and philosophical marvel, who has influenced a generation of thinkers and storytellers from Joseph Campbell to George Lucas.) In his theories on the process of individuation (the process one undergoes in order to create a distinct self), Jung purported that just as we all have good sides to our ego / personalities, we also all have villains / dark sides / evil within us. Jung labeled this darkness as "the shadow," and believed that one could not fully individuate, that is become an individual self, without first accepting the shadow. One can easily see Pink's shadow in the various outcroppings of his decay, most notably the dictator persona. Jung continues by saying that a person who successfully undergoes individuation must first call to light all of the repressed aspects of his own psyche (anima, shadow,etc.) and that he (or she) must then accept all of these aspects as a part of himself. [For those familiar with Jung, one might readily identify the mother and wife personas in "the Trial" as Pink's anima.] However, this full acceptance of the lighter and darker sides of one's persona is especially hard because everyone, to a degree, has Christ-like notions that lead a person to believe that they can actually obtain true perfection, like the Christian figure of Jesus. Jung believed that these notions are unobtainable and false because unlike the mythic or historical figure of Jesus (depending on your religious beliefs), everyone has a shadow, an evilness, inside of them. But because men are often vainglorious and unwilling to accept the idea that they are less than perfect, the shadow is often repressed, preventing that person from accepting his true, whole self, both the good and bad. However, when a person accepts his / her shadow, a sort of enlightenment takes place where his consciousness is broadened and the separate aspects of his psyche merge into one. Thus he becomes an individual self. Accordingly, Pink sets himself up as a Christ figure throughout the movie, repressing his own shadow (his accountability) behind his wall. Yet after repressing these emotions, Pink fully embraces his dark side when he becomes the Dictator, an action that is as dangerous to self-development as repressing one's shadow. But with the "the Trial," every aspect of his persona, both light and dark, are fully realized and accepted, bringing about the collapse of the wall and the emergence of Pink as an individuated self. He takes responsibility for his actions and accepts his shadow as a part of himself, breaking the personal and social cycle of ignorance and unaccountability by taking the next step towards psychological wholeness".
[> [> Re: 'I've seen the enemy and it be us' -- Just George, 14:30:57 03/19/03 Wed

Thank you for connecting the "labyrinth of life", the metaphorical underworld, to the SHS Basement. I agree that Lessons was foreshadowing the journey that Buffy is on. If the final "Buffy vs. self" battle takes place, it would be fitting for the smackdown to take place in the deepest recesses of the Hellmouth under the SHS Basement.

I also thought that the analysis of "The Wall" was fascinating as well.

-Just George
[> Some questions (spoiler CwDP & Get It Done) -- lunasea, 08:46:59 03/19/03 Wed

What was the First trying to accomplish in "Amends?" How does Angel killing himself accomplish the same goal it would if he tried to kill Buffy?

Also, do you think the power behind the Slayer line comes sole from the demon heart/essence? How does this fit with the message of the Spirit Guide in "Intervention?"

How does "From Beneath You It Devours" fit with your idea? "It" was revealed to be the First in CwDP (last line of the episode).
[> [> Re: Some questions (spoiler CwDP & Get It Done + FCS) -- maddog, 13:02:08 03/19/03 Wed

You may have just hit something. What happens in Amends is quite the foreshadowing for Angel showing up for the final episode. The First isn't stupid. No Angel and it becomes quite a bit easier to take out the stronger foes both physically and mentally. Think about it. Angel kills himself and then he's not there to fight. Buffy would have lost some of her edge knowing Angel's gone forever. And there wouldn't have been anyone around to handle Faith and bring her back to the good side.
[> [> [> Re: Some questions (spoiler CwDP & Get It Done + FCS) -- maddog, 13:11:02 03/19/03 Wed

Sorry for the mulitple double postings...I keep getting error messages when posting.
[> [> Re: Some questions (spoiler CwDP & Get It Done) -- Just George, 19:10:00 03/19/03 Wed

In Amends, the First went after Buffy through Angel. But Angel wouldn't bite (pun intended). The First couldn't come after Buffy directly because she wasn't in a position to be vulnerable to the First Evil. She was confident and defiant. Angle was despondent and suicidal.

When The First saw Angel wasn't going to kill Buffy, it said, "That's not the plan". But if The First couldn't get Buffy, it would take Angel. He was a long prophesized champion. In Becoming, Whistler told Buffy that Angel was thought to be the one who was going to save the world not destroy it. Oh, and sanishu anyone?

In Intervention Buffy is told that she "forges strength from pain." Actually, everyone can forge strength from pain. Athletes exercise. Addicts hit bottom. Couples blow up and then make up. The First is all about pain. Perhaps Buffy has to face the pain of her negative emotions so she can forge the strength to stand down The First.

And "From Beneath You It Devours"? Negative emotions can devour anyone. Look what they did to Chloe. And what they almost did to Spike. Buffy and the Scoobies will have to face negative emotions and their monstrous metaphors to survive the attack of The First.

-JG
[> [> [> Re: Some questions (spoiler CwDP & Get It Done) -- lunasea, 10:24:58 03/21/03 Fri

In Amends, the First went after Buffy through Angel. But Angel wouldn't bite (pun intended). The First couldn't come after Buffy directly because she wasn't in a position to be vulnerable to the First Evil. She was confident and defiant. Angle was despondent and suicidal.

The flow of Amends makes it one of my favorite episodes. Angel doesn't start despondent and suicidal. The First takes him down a path that Angel derails not by being suicidal, but by being willing to sacrifice himself. He doesn't WANT to die. He is willing to in order to protect Buffy. Then up on that hill and in order to do what he feels he must, he goes through a range of emotions that does lead him to wanting to die.

From the Birth to the Temptation in the Desert to the Agony in the Garden to the Resurrection, all was present in that wonderful episode. A great way to set up the spin-off. The range required from the actors was probably the most out of any single episode.

When The First saw Angel wasn't going to kill Buffy, it said, "That's not the plan". But if The First couldn't get Buffy, it would take Angel. He was a long prophesized champion. In Becoming, Whistler told Buffy that Angel was thought to be the one who was going to save the world not destroy it. Oh, and sanishu anyone?

"But it'll do" to me doesn't sound like the First is settling for a consolation prize. Killing himself serves the same end as Angel trying to kill Buffy. As the Mohra demon said "Together you were powerful. Alone, you are dead." But is this just a physical strength?

In Intervention Buffy is told that she "forges strength from pain." Actually, everyone can forge strength from pain. Athletes exercise. Addicts hit bottom. Couples blow up and then make up. The First is all about pain. Perhaps Buffy has to face the pain of her negative emotions so she can forge the strength to stand down The First.

It is more than just facing and accepting pain or negative emotions. That is one level, one that few manage to reach. There is another, using that pain to motivate you. For an athelete, the agnony of defeat often motivates them to push through the physical pain when they work out. For that addict, the pain of rock bottom makes them get help and resist temptation. Couples who fight learn how to deal with things before they get to that point.

Buffy doesn't need to forge strength to stand down the first. She has been doing that and who wants to bet that has made the First stronger? The higher she gets, the more that will be beneath her to devour her. She beat the First last time, not by pummeling the harbingers, but by helping Angel. This season she gave Spike the strength to beat the First by believing in him.

Buffy will beat the First not by standing up to it. She will beat it by bringing herself "down" to the same level as her friends and empowering them. It is all connected. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

I wouldn't say the First is about pain. In "Storytellers" pain shut the Hellmouth down. Jenny/First tells Angel "I don't wanna make you feel bad" and "I don't wanna hurt you, Angel."

And "From Beneath You It Devours"? Negative emotions can devour anyone. Look what they did to Chloe. And what they almost did to Spike. Buffy and the Scoobies will have to face negative emotions and their monstrous metaphors to survive the attack of The First.

Why do negative emotions equate to "from beneath you?" What do you mean by "negative emotions?"

What was the monstrous metaphor of the Turok-Han?
[> Combine Man v. Self and Mother's Red Milk... -- Anneth, 10:58:19 03/19/03 Wed

JG, it dawned on me while reading Caroline's spectacular "Mother's Milk" post that this season's metaphore is the most complex and varigated yet. I think you're right on target when you say that "this also makes the metaphor for the season Buffy vs. herself" -- after six years of tension, the Buffy's three main aspects (creative-mother, creative-erotic, and creative-destructive), which have always been at war, are going to be forced to either reconcile or destroy her.

These tensions have existed since season 1 on Buffy, and since the dawn of time for mankind in general. As any 7th grade English teacher will tell you, there exist three kinds of battles: Man v. Nature, Man v. Man, and Man v. Self. (Y'know, I just thought up another layer of meaning in Dawn's name... she is the living emodiment of a destructive force that has existed since "the dawn of time." Maybe lame, cheesy, etc - but an interesting thought.)

In a sense, one can concieve of seasons 5-7 as one long arc. S5 created the creation-mother aspect, or at least explored it in depth for the first time, by forcing Buffy into the position of mother. It was also the exploration of the Man v. Nature battle - Buffy had to fight Nature as embodied by Glory and the Key's potential, and she engaged in this battle, and won it, by sacraficing herself for her "daughter" Dawn. S6 explored the creative-erotic aspect of Buffy's personality by digging deeply into her sexual urges. She got into her first really messy relationship, one based on frenetic sexual activity, and was forced to learn that she had, and arguably still has, dark sexual longings. S6 was the Man v. Man arc - Buffy had to fight human beings with human urges who engaged in human crimes. The Trio and their "lame" crimes, (the mundane human crime of, for example, robbing a bank and ended with Warren murdering Tara with a gun), Spike and his sexuality (which culminated in a potential rape), Willow and her "addiction" and pain (which ended with Willow going off the deep-end because of her rage and pain at Tara's death.) The current season has absolutly been exploring the creative-destructive aspect of Buffy's personality, the tension between her ability to give and create and save life, and her calling as a destroyer. So far, we've seen Buffy going against everything she's learned over the past 6 years, with her "I am the final arbiter of law and power around here" attitude. This, I believe, is an outward manifestation of the destructive aspect of her personality. At the same time, however, we've also seen her reject power (Get it Done), share power (the final scene of STSP), and even give it to someone else (first scene in Lessons, eg, where she has Dawn slay a vampire). Clearly, whether she's aware of it or not, Buffy's struggling internally with the ramifications of her destructive power. Which is metaphorically represented by her struggle with the ultimate destructive power, the FE.

Hm. How is it that these one-sentence posts of mine somehow always evolve into minor essays? :)

My point is this - I think that this season's climax will involve Buffy finally coming to terms with the three main aspects of her personality, and reconciling them (or at least beginning to), or being destroyed by the tension they create. The FE is a metaphore for Buffy's Self, and S7 is the Man v. Self aspect of the Man v. Nature, Man v. Man, and Man v. Self trilogy of seasons 5 thru 7.
[> [> Wonderful post! -- Caroline, 15:00:16 03/19/03 Wed

[> [> [> Caroline, do you come in travel-size bottles? -- Anneth, 00:15:38 03/20/03 Thu

You're *wonderful* for the ego!
[> [> Re: Combine Man v. Self and Mother's Red Milk... -- Just George, 00:24:31 03/20/03 Thu

A very interesting post. I agree with you, S5 = Buffy vs. Nature, S6 = Buffy vs. Man, and S7 = Buffy vs. herself. My wife feels that S6 was the Scoobies vs. themselves, and that in S7 the main threat is external. It just shows how smart people can read the same dramatic experience in different ways.

-JG
[> Re: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and... (S7 spec, not spoilers) -- Arasis-tita Dea et Repartus, 06:03:37 03/20/03 Thu

MMnm - all very interesting. However, what about "Not the the big bang, not the Word."?
Surely, again this is supposition, with the many biblical references, we could be looking at the prime instigator of all biblical evil, ie the Devil, the Morning Star, Lucifer, whichever name you choose. He was the first to rebel against God, the right-hand man with the most power - as I understand it. We've had references to Buffy being in heaven, and since her return her demeanour and power have been quite blatently angelic (the shot of her against the winged statue?)
Of course, there is no denying where her power has come from, however the FE is attacking through her surroundings, not as yet through her directly. I agree - the FE is everywhere, in everything, but it seems only to manipulate those who have evil IN them. Any comments?
[> [> Re: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Nature, and... (S7 spec, not spoilers) -- Just George, 11:10:50 03/20/03 Thu

Arasis-tita Dea et Repartus: "Of course, there is no denying where her power has come from, however the FE is attacking through her surroundings, not as yet through her directly. I agree - the FE is everywhere, in everything, but it seems only to manipulate those who have evil IN them. Any comments?"


I think the FE attacks those who are vulnerable to its temptations. At this point, all the FE has are words to make people act as its agents. It needs people to act in ways that they know, in their hearts, are wrong. Chloe to commit suicide. Vi to run from the safety of the house. Andrew to kill Jonathan. Willow to give up magic and/or commit suicide. Spike to abandon hope and return to his murderous ways without being controlled. When people give in to their temptations the FE wins. In this way it is like some forms of the Christian Devil. When people resist temptation, like Willow and Spike did, the FE loses. That's why I think the FE attacked Angel in Amends, even though its target was Buffy. At that point in S3, Buffy was confident and determined, while Angel was despondent and suicidal.

-JG
When is a demon not an inner demon? and vice versa... -- WickedBuffy, 22:15:50 03/18/03 Tue

I keep getting confused about that when I read posts. Are all the actual demons supposedly manifestations of peoples specific inner demons? Or are both kinds running around town?

If there is a difference, how is it being decided which is which?
[> Re: When is a demon not an inner demon? and vice versa... -- Quentin Collins, 23:27:33 03/18/03 Tue

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this distinction. The writers have stated that many of the demons on the show are metaphors for various things. I am not sure if that is what you mean. To the best of my knowledge, most of the demons are actually demons (if that makes any sense).
[> [> pondering this -- MsGiles, 01:27:44 03/19/03 Wed

Sometimes I think a demon's too stupid to be a metaphor, like the one in AYW that Riley and Sam are chasing. The big rubber suit mother-of-eggs demon. And then I think Hum. Riley's all about boys with toys, and that was a female demon. Sure, that was so it could have eggs for Spike to hoard, but ..There was the stuff about Riley and Sam being a family unit, as opposed to Buffy and Spike wno aren't, and Xander and Anya, who are on the brink. While Buffy's looking at happy couples everywhere .. Spike's looking after these eggs.. hatching baby demons .. maybe there is something obliquely metaphorical, or at least symbolic, a family theme here. Or maybe I'm thinking way too much : )

Maybe there are different levels of metaphoricalness going on, and some we can dig out that the writers don't even seem to have meant, like the lesbian chops penis metaphor in DMP :):)
Not apathetic but extremely ambivalent. -- Deb, 05:50:20 03/19/03 Wed

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I haven't been around here at all for some time. Couldn't sleep last night, so here I come back. I was wondering what the people of this board thought of this "war" situation. One thing I am sure of is that there are intelligent people here who can present all viewpoints in a manner that is neither antagonistic nor attacking. That says a lot about the caliber of people here.

I've spent the last four hours writing a post after reading all of your thoughtful insights and gleaning information. I almost hit the clear button after I reread it. Instead, I saved it to reread in a few days. Right now I am not capable of being as level-headed as the rest of you.

Just a message to Dub. I'm a people of the "US" of A and I'm just as concerned about being on this side of that long unprotected border as you. I just hope Bush is totally sincere in his spoken intentions of ridding the world of a mad man and assisting the people of Iraq in rebuilding their lives. Hopefully, afterward, he will turn his attention to his own people and the rising crisis that exists here. If he is not successful or true to his word, then I hope Canada and our other friends around the world don't reap the Karmic "reward" that this country will face because of the actions of another mad man.

This said: I support our troops. I know many of them, and they are good people. Many are just as confused and ambivalent as I. They are human though, which is really quite a bit more frightening than being a vampire on Buffy if you think really hard about it.

In addition, the US of A's media needs to get its priorities straight. Many specific mediums appear more excited about showing off their neat technology that will allow them to keep us abreast of every moment of the campaign in real-time than they are about covering all sides of all the issues of this crisis. And I wish they would stop with the cutzy names they give every conflict. The media appears more public relations than watchdog these days. This spoken by a former journalist.

Lastly, to the fine essay of LIC and terrorism. Quite insightful. My question is: How can a war against terrorism be successful if history has shown us in the US of A's own Revolutionary War and in the more recent Vietnam War, that modern conventional warfare is splashy and impressive, but not effective against guerilla warfare? Has Osadem Ben Laden achieved his intent? Are we so frightened of being in the real world now, and not in some post-WWII fairytale, that we can only react out of fear? Are we going to uncover every "terrorist" in the world that frightens us until the whole world has become "evil" and we can't even trust ourselves anymore?

Hugs for everyone. This might diffuse itself somehow, or it might not. Either way, we have to live in this world until we die.

Oh, byw, I loved the thread about signs that you've been around here a long time. I checked off most of them mentioned. Here's another one.

You tell yourself you will never come back to this board, but after a few days, weeks or months you find yourself right back here.
[> Sorry. I thought I was posting to thread below. -- Deb, 06:01:43 03/19/03 Wed

Looks like I hiccuped too. If you would move message to the thread it would be appreciated. Now I sheepishly slink off.
[> Re: Not apathetic but extremely ambivalent. -- Corwin of Amber, 07:36:01 03/19/03 Wed

How can a war against terrorism be successful if history has shown us in the US of A's own Revolutionary War and in the more recent Vietnam War, that modern conventional warfare is splashy and impressive, but not effective against guerilla warfare? Has Osadem Ben Laden achieved his intent? Are we so frightened of being in the real world now, and not in some post-WWII fairytale, that we can only react out of fear? Are we going to uncover every "terrorist" in the world that frightens us until the whole world has become "evil" and we can't even trust ourselves anymore?

Well, it's mainly a myth that military action is ineffective against guerilla warfare. We proved, time and again, that we could militarily take and hold any piece of territory in Vietnam that we needed. They beat us on the psychological front.

Of course that's part and parcel of terrorism. It's goal is to create that attitude you talk about. Well, in the actual guerilla it's usually just an expression of blind fury. But the terrorism masters need funding, they need stockpiles of weapons, explosives and ammunition, and they need safe havens in which to rearm, plot and plan, and we can take that away from them.

But in the long term, we do have to address the circumstances and attitudes that create the terrorists.
[> Re: Not apathetic but extremely ambivalent. -- Celebaelin, 09:30:57 03/19/03 Wed

Thanks for your compliment Deb and welcome back. I've tried to answer your questions in the sense that I think you meant them, if I've misinterpreted you at any point or you want to nail me on a perceived fudge please feel free.

How can a war against terrorism be successful if history has shown us in the US of A's own Revolutionary War and in the more recent Vietnam War, that modern conventional warfare is splashy and impressive, but not effective against guerilla warfare?

Wars of conquest never succeed long term without the co-operation, tacit or otherwise, of the civilian population. The concept of policing by consent is the only practicable form of maintaining public order once overt military conflict has ceased as one simply cannot justify or sanction the large scale brutalisation of what are technically civilians in order to maintain territorial gains. Quite apart from anything else it is UNPROFITABLE in both the military and economic senses (associated cost outweigh profits especially in the presence of active resistance movements, military resources are spread thin with no anticipated additional gain). Asset stripping (ie pillaging) of occupied territories works to some extent but often the ego of the occupying force demands that no withdrawal is made. This was as true for the Romans as it is today, the Romans maintained their Empire for so long because they brought significant, rapid, readily identifiable material advantages to the people whose lands they occupied. The British still regret to some extent the rapidity with which the war on Nazi Germany necessitated their abdication of responsibility in certain parts of the Empire, I'm thinking particularly of Zimbabwe at the moment (not that I am suggesting that any military action against Zimbabwe is anticipated I hasten to add). Sadaam Hussein conducted his war against Kuwait on the principals learned from the Nazis mistakes in WWII (secure the oil - he's already got lots of that, asset strip and attempt to negotiate economic submission, don't occupy long term) but failed to realise the gap in technology that existed or that he had been IMO duped into attacking Kuwait by a promise of inaction by the US in order to remove the threat imposed to the provision of Middle-East oil supplies by the presence of, at the time, the worlds fifth largest army. In order to defeat terrorism the US and its' allies will have to use a combination of persuasion and infiltration, of course sledgehammer tactics do not work against terrorist cells - but they do work against arms production facilities.

Has Osama Ben Laden achieved his intent?

To a certain extent, yes. If you have been deterred from any course of action by the events of 9/11, eg air travel, foreign visits, opening unsolicited handwritten mail, then terror tactics are affecting your life. Ben Laden's ultimate goal however is the destruction of the Western Capitalist system and its' replacement by an Islamic Fundamentalist global authority. Not only has this not happened of course it will not happen, suppression of personal freedoms is something the people of Westernised nations get quite touchy about and religious intolerance can make martyrs on both sides of the fence.

Are we so frightened of being in the real world now, and not in some post-WWII fairytale, that we can only react out of fear?

I'm unsure what you mean here, dismay I think rather than fear, grim resolve perhaps. Certainly the effects of the explosion of a battlefield nuclear weapon could incapacitate any non EM-hard technology (an electromagnetic pulse is generated from a nuclear explosion) which could cause the 'video game' technology to fail. This begins to resemble the old Cold War situation of MAD if you extrapolate sufficiently. The initial Gulf War Alliance was assembled as a response to the first invasion of the post Cold War era, Iraqi thinking seems to be rooted in the late forties and early fifties, tentatively using Nazi Germany as its' military model. It is interesting to me that the concept of total war is exactly that which the Iraqis are playing upon for sympathy, especially when it is known that 90% of the bombs dropped in the coming conflict will be smart bombs. This will not eliminate civilian casualties, but it will make a huge difference to the statistical likelihood of mistargeting.

Are we going to uncover every "terrorist" in the world that frightens us until the whole world has become "evil" and we can't even trust ourselves anymore?

I'll split this into two parts if that's OK with you

Are we going to uncover every "terrorist" in the world that frightens us?

No, can't be done. New disgruntled faction will arise continually. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." Thomas Jefferson I believe. Anyway it depends who you classify as terrorists, are Greenpeace terrorists, or other more extreme eco-terrorist groups? Pro-life campaigners? The Animal Liberation Front? There are conventional laws to cover these cases but I imagine you see my general point.

...until the whole world has become "evil" and we can't even trust ourselves anymore?

To the most saintly person in the world the whole of humanity IS evil. To the most diabolical person the whole world is good, but all the more despicable for that. I'm not sure that this kind of hyperbole is useful except as an argument against extremism but for what it's worth, no.
[> [> Point on Gulf War 1990-91 -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 12:44:21 03/19/03 Wed

One point of disagreement --

The US did NOT give Saddam Hussein any green light to invade Kuwait. I have read the transcript of the April Glaspie (US Ambassador to Iraq)/ Saddam interview of late July 1990 and she said nothing of the kind.

What she said is that the US does not have a position on the border dispute between Iraq and Kuwait. This is accurate; we are not going to get involved in an argument over a few hundred meter wide strip of sand. It's a long way from that to "go ahead, invade."

Maybe Saddam TOOK it that way but the US diplomat clearly didn't SAY that.

When dealing with a national leader as, shall we say, "erratic" as Saddam Hussein the US government scripts ambassadorial interviews in Washington. If there was blame for unclear statements, blame DC, not Glaspie.
[> Not supporting the agenda ISN'T the same as not supporting the troops and people need to get that! -- Briar Rose (always for life), 18:03:54 03/19/03 Wed

I do not support the agenda that Bush and Blair and the others in power are promoting at all.

But I have nothing but sympathy and respect for the actual soldiers and flyers and sailors carrying out these actions, no matter how against those actions I may be.

I am looking at the fact that this CAN'T be a "fast and clean" war and have any lasting change occur.

The body count is going to be huge on both sides. And it may even be high on the actual shores of the US.

This is going to be unlike any war since the Second World War and I am starting to loose any form of feeling whatsoever.

The hardest thing about this world is living in it....
[> Not supporting the agenda ISN'T the same as not supporting the troops! -- Briar (praying for peace), 18:10:56 03/19/03 Wed

I do not support the agenda that Bush and Blair and the others in power are promoting at all.

But I have nothing but sympathy and respect for the actual soldiers and flyers and sailors carrying out these actions, no matter how against those actions I may be.

I am looking at the fact that this CAN'T be a "fast and clean" war and have any lasting change occur.

The body count is going to be huge on both sides. And it may even be high on the actual shores of the US.

This is going to be unlike any war since the Second World War and I am starting to loose any form of feeling whatsoever.

The hardest thing about this world is living in it....
[> My opinion (warning I feel very strongly about this issue) -- Miss Edith, 17:33:01 03/20/03 Thu

By allowing pre-emptive military action by a minority of states the notion of world democracy and international law has just been shattered. Attacking without provocation and international support is truly shameful.

The people of Britain have spoken, tens of thousands of people are protesting, including schoolchildren, major roads are being bought to a standstill. We have had nine Government ministerial resignations in protest, and the largest rebellion in Parliamnent for over a century. Blair has shown us his true opinion of democracy now. I have heard some say he should be brought up on charges for war crimes. That is how strong the feeling is against him, yet he still persists in ignoring the British public whom he is mean to represent.

The hatred of America is being reinforced, and Bush is playing into the terrorists hands. The will of the West being imposed by force is giving ammunition to the terrorists. I still cannot believe the war has actually gone ahead. I feel sick.
[> [> In Confirmation of the above -- Celebaelin, 05:20:14 03/21/03 Fri

Media polls suggested that prior to the commencement the public were roughly 70:30 against war without a second UN resolution. As often happens however there is a feeling of fatalism now and public support for the armed services comes to the fore. The protests were indeed widespread but, without believing that I am putting any slant on this, I would describe the protesters as a vocal minority generally speaking. I was particularly disturbed to hear that nurses at the Selly Oak hospital in Birmingham were protesting however (burns units nationwide are on standby for possible casualties).

Certain protests, such as the one outside the Houses of Parliament where the schoolchildren had 'bunked off' (or possibly what's worse, been given permission) to regurgitate anti-war slogans and complaints about lack of democratic accountability (I paraphrase), I regard with suspicion. It's not that the opinions are any less valid but the cynical exploitation of children in this manner is a perverse kind of psychology that I can't say I approve of personally. Some people will hold that the ends justify the means when lives are at stake, they may be right.
BTVS Fixation -- Drizzt, 06:38:39 03/19/03 Wed

Who is more dysfunctional in this situation, Me or my mom?

Drizzt
1. I am obsessed with BTVS & in love with Buffy(I love and admire SMG, however I am not in love with her)
2. In 2001 I was severely depressed and had a mental-breakdown. I was borderline suicidle for that entire year and also half of 2002. Watching BTVS was the ONLY thing that I looked foward to each week; it was my lifeline, the only thing that gave me any hapiness.
3. With that in mind it makes sense that I did my best to record and watch each episode of the show that I could. For two years I collected books & magazines related to the show. From the day that I discovered this discussion board it has been my favorite internet sight.
4. I was very conflicted becuase of having no emotional distinction between SMG & Buffy. I was also conflicted in terms of my obssesive desire for Buffy. These conflicts resolved starting with the point when I saw an interview with SMG and it gave me an emotional feel for her that let me make a distinction between her personality and the character that she 'portrays'...Buffy. After that interview my obssesive desire for SMG faded away within 24 hours: yay!, also I became less confused and conflicted RE Buffy after that interview: YAY! I am now no longer depressed or conflicted in any way.
5. I am peacefull.

Mom
1. My mom knows how important Buffy is to me, I have explicitely explained the above to her several times.
2. Currently my mom is either schizophrenic or partially controlled by a demon/evil spirit. I have asked a holy woman to do an exorcism on my mom as IMO it is partial demonic possesion. FACT: my mom is manic-depressive.
3. My mom has RAGE in her heart against her parents who were abusive and alchoholic, against my dad for his dysfunctions and for being psychologically and physically a manipulative basterd to her...he is primarilly passive-aggressive in this respect but it is still not cool, against all evil in the world and specifically against unjust wars like the one that is days away, against the man that raped her when she was a teenager.
4. My mom is a talker, a social and freindly person. She is dysfunctional though in that she has a psychological need to VENT her anger with physical action. She lies to herself and tries to avoid her anger by meditating and alternative spiritual stuff...but allways in her subconcias is her rage. When there is any sort of conflict my mom gets shrill and near panick and ATACKS but only verbally as she has COMPLETELY repressed into her subconcias any inclination for physical release of anger.
5. My mom has reversed what I have explicetly stated to her: she has convinced herself that BTVS is responsible for my depression, that I watch it because of the demons on it, that watching BTVS is Satan Worship!? Counterpoints: I was depressed before I ever watched BTVS: the show got me through a really bad phase. I watch primarilly because I am in love with Buffy...demons are merely incidental to me and I am on Buffy's side in any conflict. I do not and have never had a desire or inclination to worship/serve any evil entities.
6. My mom kicked me out of the house, threataned to have her Tongan freinds beat the shit out of me, have a restraining order against me or have police arrest me, also she ritually destroyed my entire BTVS collection. Damn that pissed me off: my BTVS collection & memorabilia was the material objects that I value more than anything else that I owned;( It is all gone, destroyed because of my mom's delusions. I was only angry about this for about thirty hours...then I simply accepted it as past tense and done. Also I cannot remain angry when it is insanity that causes her weirdness.
7. My mom convinced ME to get counseling & prescription for depression. I asked her politely "Mom are you willing to get counselling? It is free and they will give you a free prescription" Her answer was "If you try to power trip me I will cut off your balls, and I do not need counselling" She was holding pruning sheers in her hand when she said it and IMO at least she was serious IN THAT MOMENT in the threat to me...shivers;(

I am not angry at my mom, I am just worried about her.
I do not know how to help her: commiting her involuntarilly to a psych ward could make things even worse;(
[> Re: BTVS Fixation -- Helen, 07:49:27 03/19/03 Wed

I am so sorry to hear you're still having problems like this with your mum.

I don't think you mention your age, but couldn't you leave somehow? Is your dad still in the picture, or do you have any friends or relatives you could stay with for a bit? I know this sounds a bit defeatist, you obviously care about your mum very deeply and want to help her, but unfortunately you may not be able to. From the easy perspective of not having to deal with the shit you're going through, perhaps it's time to think of yourself. All this stress must be seriously bad for you, and if you've suffered from depression yourself in the past her fragile state might not be the best thing for you to be around.
She's the mum - you're not responsible for her.
[> Re: BTVS Fixation -- dream, 09:12:46 03/19/03 Wed

Again, I don't know how old you are. But I have lived with a manic-depressive. The problem with spending most of your time intimately involved with someone who is mentally imbalanced is that you start seeing the world through his/her eyes. Not that you come to believe what she believes, just that everything gets a little skewed, like wearing someone else's prescription glasses. It's hard to let go of the idea that if you could just explain things properly, just get through - but in the case of someone who is that far gone, there is no "getting through." People can't be talked out of mental illness. She NEEDS medication. And you need to feel safe from threats of violence. You may also need to be treated for depression - stragely enough, your mom may be right about that. You've been living with extreme stress for a long time. Your body has been in flight or fight mode for ages. We are not built to handle that in the long term - the responses thaqt are logical for short-term stimulus can cause problems when stress is unrelieved for long periods. That's why you may need some help.

As for demonic possession, I can't help you there; I'm a skeptic. There may be some power in the ritual if your mother believes there is. But I've seen enough rage and insanity in people who can also exhibit extraordinary gentleness that I don't feel a need to believe a actual demons - humanity seems to supply its own.

Please, please - find someone to talk to. If you can, find somewhere else to live. Your first priority has to be your own safety. You can't help her - as awful as it is to have to give up that idea, you just can't. And once you've been able to get some distance, you may be able to let yourself feel angry. Because even though she may not be responsible for the things she does, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel anger. You should be angry, because you got cheated out of the loving home and stable parent you deserve. The natural, healthy response to that is anger. That doesn't mean you should take your anger out on your mother, just that you shouldn't feel guilty about feeling it. Please try to get help with this situation. And please let us know how you are doing. I will be thinking about you.
[> Re: BTVS Fixation -- SplishSplash, 16:46:22 03/19/03 Wed

You spelt conscious wrong.
[> [> LOL sorri -- Drizstnick, 23:01:16 03/20/03 Thu

[> Re: BTVS Fixation -- Sara, 19:33:58 03/19/03 Wed

I can't even imagine what you should do in such a difficult situation. Dealing with mental illness in a loved one has been the most difficult thing I've ever experienced, and I just want you to know that I am amazed and awed at the way you're handling it. In a much less extreme situation I had nowhere near your compassion, clear head and strength. The ability to separate the disturbed behavior from the person you love is a skill and insight that most people I know lack, and your mother is very lucky to have you. Please keep yourself safe, I know you must do what you have to, but don't put yourself at risk and when you've done all you can and have reached your limit stop without any guilt. You've already done above and beyond and regardless of what happens you can be proud when you look at yourself in the mirror.
[> Re: BTVS Fixation -- miya, 10:03:21 03/20/03 Thu

I found your message to be extremely disturbing. Both you and your mother seem extremely unhealthy and though you claim to be able (Now!) to separate the fantasy of Buffy with the reality of Sarah Michelle Gellar, the fact that so recently you were not able to do this is exceptionally frightening to me. It is also fairly unhealthy to 'be in love with' a fictional character. I really feel that both you and your mother desperately need some immediate counselling. She is not making matters any better for you, and you are not out of the woods. It seems that you do not have anyone in real life you feel you can turn to, but there are many organisations that will be able to assist you. I beg you to do this.
[> [> Interesting -- Drizzt, 23:07:48 03/20/03 Thu

Miya,

I am sane, I am not depressed, I am peacefull except when my mom's weirdness overwelms me; then I just get away from her long enough to recover my own mental balance.

I do have freinds, both here and in 'real life'
I have done couseling and dealt with all of my issues.
Thank you for your concern, I am sorry that your lack of data about me has made you make reasonable...but false assumptions about me.

Smorgie
[> [> [> Re: Interesting -- Miya, 06:54:51 03/21/03 Fri

That's as may be and I certainly wish you the best, for not only your own sake, but for Sarah Michelle Gellar's. But really, when one is dealing with someone as you have described your mother, especially when one is so newly stabilised as you have admitted, it wouldn't be difficult to become mired back in the quicksand. I stand by my plea for you both to receive further and intensive counselling. There's no shame in it, and I'm pretty sure if Buffy were real, which she isn't, she'd tell you the same. Perhaps not my place to say, but, hey, you brought it here. I hope things work out for you.

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